Transcript

Prav Solanki: Hey guys, and welcome to today’s episode of the Dental Leaders Podcast. Today we had the pleasure of interviewing Mahrukh Khwaja, who’s the founder of Empowering Women in Dentistry group and has started a movement herself. What an inspiring character. Somebody who I’ve been following certainly, on social media, that popped up from nowhere. I think this group has given a lot of people confidence, courage and just brought certain mental health issues to the front. Certainly her own personal journey that she shared with us. It was very emotional and very heartfelt interview, I felt.

Payman: Well you could tell from her, the vocabulary she had around mental wellness and I think it’s one of those areas that, give it another 10 years. Everyone’s going to understand. I think without having gone through what she’s gone through herself, she’s very very, up-on, exactly what to look out for and what to do. The same time. There’s a lot more to Empowering Women in Dentistry than that but it seemed to me that that was her real area of passion. Really lovely, lovely interview. You can enjoy it.

Prav Solanki: Enjoy.

Mahrukh Khwaja: There are certainly challenges, I can appreciate that. But it’s also really exciting-

Payman: Of course.

Mahrukh Khwaja: As well that, something new can come and we can have different conversations in dentistry. And also I’m helping to create a seat at the table where I feel like perhaps we’re not always given that seat?

Speaker 4: This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry, your host, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman: It’s really good to have Mahrukh in the studio. I’ve been looking forward to talking to you. I remember one of the first few times we met and it was soon after the Minimalist conference and then also before, it’s before the Minimalist conference and you said to me, why aren’t there more women speakers at the conference?

Payman: And I thought about it and we had Sanely McCrone and she was, from my point of view, probably the best speaker, the most useful content that we had on that day. But at the time I didn’t appreciate the question. I felt why should there be more women on? Until I kind of turned it around and I thought, well, what would I have felt, if there was eight women and one man? I would probably have wanted more men. This question of Empowering Women in Dentistry, which is your whole thing, your group and so on. Where did it start and tell us some of the history about it.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Empowering Women in Dentistry really started from a feeling of frustration that women weren’t being equally represented in all spans of industry. When I was looking at this in a party setting where there are lots of principles out, that they were female or even at a conference setting, academia research. And I got to a point in my dentistry, I was in a bit of a rant and I was looking to upscale but finding a real lack of mentorship, a feeling of disconnection from other women and feeling quite isolated, being in practise and just really wanting to connect more with positive, uplifting women. That’s where the concept started.

Payman: But what do you think is the reason why there aren’t more women role models? Do you think that they’ve been, held back or do you think that there’s something about women that doesn’t put themselves forward or is it about having children? What is it? Is it all of those things?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think that’s a really complex and interesting question. There’s lots of different strands and they’re definitely all inter-play. I think for me the biggest aspect is looking at fear, fear of failure, fear that women might have, of speaking up and having a voice. Are they going to be ridiculed, criticised? Definitely, are they putting themselves forward, perhaps not so much? Why is that, looking at the psychology behind that?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Definitely being mother does impact your dentistry, especially if you’re not supported. If your principal, for example, isn’t allowing for flexible working patterns, etc, that would impact things as well. I think it’s definitely complex. I feel like, there potentially could be a man’s club as well, where men in high visibility roles may not be giving the equal opportunities to women.

Mahrukh Khwaja: But having said that, women can step forward and create that seat at the table. I’d love to see that more.

Payman: And you’ve been interviewing successful women dentists yourself. Is there something about them that more masculine or is there something about them that’s a thread that you’ve seen going through those women, are they the type that don’t care what people think about them or-

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yes, it’s been a really interesting journey talking to women and there’s lots of different things I’ve kind of gained from that. Comments read I found was actually, they’ve all experienced a difficult scenario. They’ve all been bullied or harassed at work, which was really surprising to me.

Payman: All of the ones you spoken to?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Pretty much all of them.

Payman: Even the super successful ones?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yes, definitely. I thought that perhaps there is a face to someone who might be harassed, but no, actually it’s successful, really driven women, have experienced some difficult situations but have flipped it around and have looked at self-growth and used that situation and really grown from it. I think that’s been the most surprising element actually, coming out of the interviews.

Prav Solanki: Have you come across any sort of female speakers, lecturers, mentors in dentistry, who’ve made it that haven’t had to sort of turn that negative energy around or being harassed or bullied and just made it positive on their own two feet from the ground up?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah, definitely. I have come across a few women like that as well. That have had generally quite positive experiences. But I would say that’s the minority actually, majority have experienced some difficulty and it doesn’t necessarily have to be in the workplace. It might be in a relationship or just generally in life. And they’ve kind of come from their own rock bottom and they’ve wanted to change things around.

Payman: Isn’t that a human thing. I mean-

Mahrukh Khwaja: Definitely.

Payman: Do you think… forget the industry, do you think it’s harder to be a woman in society than being a man in today’s society?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I would say so-

Payman: I’m not sure, I mean I’m not sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think it can be because women have the expectations to do well in their career, but also to be great mother, to be great wife. It’s all these hats that they’re juggling and there’s more pressure to be blessed in all of these areas. Not to say that men don’t experience this, at sometimes it feels like we’re being sold a dream that is very hard to achieve. Something has to give…

Prav Solanki: I kind of hear where you’re coming from because you know, if I look at myself, I’m the guy, I go out to work. I’ve got four kids at home and my wife is a full time mom and she runs a little business on the side as well, right? Well she can only fit that in around looking after the kids, doing the very best for them and everything has to be perfect. Every meal on the table, every kid’s club, everything has to be spot on the kids are a priority. Her career can’t be.

Prav Solanki: Then I come home after a really easy day at work and all the kids want to do is hug me and I play super dad and in some respects I see that from her perspective and a feel or it’s not fair because I’m the guy who goes out and I can live my dream, do what I want to do, I come home, I get the best of the kids and she gets to deal with a screaming winging kids during the day and I blackballed Paula glories. Did you sort of that, those similarities-

Mahrukh Khwaja: Definitely-

Prav Solanki: In other walks of like in business as well as just sort of what I’ve described as my sort of home life relationship with my wife? Do you see any sort of parallels in the workplace?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Definitely. I would agree with that there’s so many pressures that we mean are putting on themselves, historically we would focus on the motherhood role and why for now, more than ever, we’re focusing on career and all the different avenues in life, we want to be the best and it’s… we are doing a juggling act.

Prav Solanki: What’s your solution if there is one to readdressing that balance so that there is that equality or if you were to give some advice to, say my wife, how can she manage and juggle all of that? Perhaps give advice to me. I don’t know who you think you should give advice out to. I’d love to hear your thoughts on that.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think it’s really important to focus on self-care and it’s one of the areas that we just don’t invest in. I’d really look at person development, making time for yourself, that you can then really explore the other avenues in your life. That’s been the biggest hurdle that I’ve kind of come through.

Prav Solanki: Go back to the… I’m going to keep relating this back to my own life ’cause it’s a good way of me understanding things. You talked about making time for yourself and my wife would argue, I’ve got four kids, I’ve not got time, I’m cooking so many meals a day. I’m feeding the kids, I’m taxing the kids around. What would you like in that? And I’m sure there’s loads of all the women out there in the same situation as my wife who said, you know what? I’d love to go back and maybe study. She may do that later on in life. I’ll get more time to work on her own business, which she does in the evening when I’m tucked up in bed, believe it or not and just like, what would you advise in that situation of just sort of addressing that balance? She said find more time or give time to yourself, a personal development. What would your solution be to that?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think it’s actually just looking back to how do you reclaim your health? How do you feel happier every day? It’s a very simple little things. It’s not necessarily, going away on holiday. It’s incorporating these small practises daily and that makes a difference. What I notice, really helped me was every morning having a daily practise and setting aside by 10 minutes, it can even be as small as five minutes, start small and then work on that. It doesn’t need to be hours. And actually we do have time, we just prioritise it in different ways.

Payman: Sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: That five minutes to spend on mindfulness, to spend on meditation, take a couple of… even two minutes, use an app. It doesn’t need to be complicated and you’ll find that you feel much more rested, much more karma and you’ll be able to take on tasks that you feel like you can’t normally-

Payman: Did you find yourself in a position of overwhelm and had to implement some of this stuff and that’s why you want to now talk about it. Is that what happened?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah, definitely. I would say it’s a journey really. My first couple of experiences straight out of VET were really negative. I was working in toxic environments-

Payman: What does that mean, go on, expand on that.

Mahrukh Khwaja: The first couple of principles I had really focused on teaching in a shaming way. They’d come and they’d watch my crown preps for example, and then they criticise the crown prep in front of a patient. They take photos of my web but not just mine, the whole team. And then they’d be criticising those things in front of us. I went into work feeling very panicked, feeling very uncomfortable and already not really knowing my place when I’d come out of dental school.

Mahrukh Khwaja: And really, you want your-

Payman: You are vulnerable at that point anyway.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Exactly.

Payman: That’s the thing. It’s sort of who you are.

Mahrukh Khwaja: You’re not quite sure where you fit in. What can you give to your patients, you are not quite sure yet, cause you don’t have that experience. It was really negative. I’ve called it bullying and harassment. That’s how I would label it now but at that time, actually I normalised it, they’re trying to help me. But… and maybe this is normal. This is how people are taught. I-

Payman: It’s not dental school that, that’s way too, isn’t it?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think, yeah. To element, I think. 2010 from King’s.

Payman: Right, something different to when I qualify… I remember in vet school that being a away from teaching, from some of the teachers anyway, I can think of.

Prav Solanki: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Payman: Do you think, the bullying directed to you in particular, is it because you’re a woman and were there any other sort of male VTs at the time or associates that were treated any differently? Did you feel like you were singled out at all?

Mahrukh Khwaja: In my experience, I’ve personally… there were a few other men there, but they were senior, so the conversations were different-

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: With them. I think in part, perhaps me being female and younger-

Payman: Sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Meant that the principle could, or felt that it allows you to speak in a certain way. But I think it goes to show… it really reflects the principle kind of attitude and his own psychology. There’s someone who wants to be little, who wants to tear someone down. Probably has been torn down as well. And he’s got an interesting psychology as well. That was my first few experiences of coming out to dental school-

Payman: Say, at the time you didn’t recognise it for that?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I didn’t recognise it. And actually I stayed in that position for about six months. This is after VET and looking back at now, I wouldn’t, but I felt that I had a job and I felt, I wasn’t really sure if there was much else out there. Like I said, I normalise a lot of this toxic behaviour. Then I went from that to a marriage as well that was psychologically abusive. I came out of that, just feeling, not, well, really feeling lost, not really knowing who I was

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Mahrukh Khwaja: And really looking inwards to find ways of progressing and to become a more calm, peaceful person, to reclaim that, that feel like I lost.

Prav Solanki: Just to sort of touch on your marriage and you just qualified in 2010, just got to get the chronology right. 2010, is that right?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yes.

Prav Solanki: Did your VT and then you got married-

Mahrukh Khwaja: In 2013.

Prav Solanki: 2013, did your husband at the time, had you, was it a long term relationship, that was throughout university, or? Just talk us through how you met and the courting and all the rest of it, just to-

Mahrukh Khwaja: I know-

Prav Solanki: Paint the picture out there, because there is a lot of people out there, maybe some that are listening, who’ve been in either abusive relationships, physical, mental, whatever that may be. It’d be good just to get an understanding of the background of that if you don’t mind.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Of course. I met my partner in 2009 in dental school. He was training to become a physiotherapist. I met him at campus and we had a great time getting to know each other. I would say the relationship was really quite positive, in the early years and we decided to get married after a couple of years and-

Prav Solanki: Just talk me through the proposal.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Well, actually, I didn’t go… it wasn’t a western proposal, it wasn’t like that. It was more actually a conversation. Not very romantic-

Payman: But Prav’s a real romantic, you see he is.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I’m actually a romantic as well but no, it was just a conversation and we decided that it would be great to take it further into the next step.

Prav Solanki: Commit to each other.

Mahrukh Khwaja: To commit to each other and I knew a lot about his childhood and the difficulties he’d experienced-

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: I got to know him very well. We decided to take that step forward.

Payman: When did the honeymoon period end and what were the first signs that you get from that happy situation to what you call, abusive.

Mahrukh Khwaja: It’s really different living with someone than courting someone.

Payman: Sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: A person can convey a sad image for a few hours, but when you get to know them day in, day out, it changes very quickly. I would say very early on the marriage in the marriage-

Payman: Hadn’t you not lived together at all before you got married?

Mahrukh Khwaja: We hadn’t lived… no.

Payman: That’s an error isn’t it?

Mahrukh Khwaja: (Laughs) I mean, culturally that wouldn’t… that’s not accepted-

Prav Solanki: What are your thoughts on that?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think it’s… I can understand why-

Prav Solanki: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: Why it’s not celebrated to live with the partners.

Prav Solanki: Sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I can see it from that perspective, but then I can see I’m British-Pakistani, I can see the advantages of living with your partner. I can see at both angles.

Payman: Would you do it again?

Mahrukh Khwaja: To be married without living?

Payman: Yeah, Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think I’d be comfortable with that concept.

Payman: Really?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah. I think I would, actually.

Payman: Now you’re a better judge of character than you were back then or what?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yes, I think so. I think I can pick up on the red flags a lot better. Plus I understand myself a lot better as well-

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: I wouldn’t necessarily feel like I have to live with my partner.

Prav Solanki: I struggle with this concept, simply because I put this, this is my personal belief, that you don’t really get to know a person until you’ve lived with them.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, what there is though-

Payman: Hell yeah.

Prav Solanki: It’s disgusting little habits they’ve got or the annoying little things. And even then during the honeymoon period, you don’t quite figure it out. You’ve had kids-

Payman: (laughs)

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah, (laughs).

Payman: And then they get in the way and that’s when the true person comes out, on both ends.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah.

Payman: I just find the whole concept of not being able to live and I come from a very-

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yes-

Prav Solanki: Traditional family background, where that’s frowned upon completely.

Payman: Did you and Bobby live together?

Prav Solanki: Yeah, of course.

Payman: How long?

Prav Solanki: A year? There abouts.

Mahrukh Khwaja: (laughs).

Prav Solanki: But the thing – and you know – I came from a very – and I hope my father in law’s not listening but-

Prav Solanki: (Laughing) I remember going to that house when we were courting and I put my hand on her shoulder like this. Two minutes later her dad drafted me off into his bedroom-

Payman: Bloody hell-

Prav Solanki: And he said, listen son, this touchy, touchy-

Mahrukh Khwaja: (Laughs)

Prav Solanki: No go on in my house, not until you’re married.

Mahrukh Khwaja: (laughs)

Prav Solanki: (Laughs) And I thought, wow. And that’s how strict and I’m thinking, it was, I couldn’t… my kids. I’d encourage it.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Because I’d rather they made the mistake at that point then… and do you, having made that mistake, do you still feel that you’d be able to…

Mahrukh Khwaja: I don’t know – I completely understand where you’re coming from-

Prav Solanki: Sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: You’ve got lots of valid points, I can understand that, but I don’t know if it is because I didn’t live with him. It was actually more, for me, that I hadn’t picked up on the red flags-

Payman: Sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I hadn’t… that I was perhaps looking for something quite different in a partner and hadn’t really thought about what I needed in a partnership.

Payman: And by the way, plenty of marriages fail where you have lived with people-

Prav Solanki: Of course.

Payman: That is brilliant. Of course.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Exactly.

Prav Solanki: Of course.

Payman: That’s for sure. Then when did it start feeling that? What were the signs? What were the red flags?

Mahrukh Khwaja: The red flags were, that he had a history of mental health and hadn’t managed it, I mean, at all. My partner had… well he told me he had previously had bulimia and he also had depression and OCD. All these mental health conditions that he hadn’t focused on. That was a big red flag actually came from a background of abuse as well. His dad had hit him, there was physical abuse, potentially sexual abuse as well. I had actually completed a year of psychology, I did an in calculated-

Payman: Ah, ok.

Mahrukh Khwaja: PSE in psychology. I thought I understood these really well, what I hadn’t understood was all the distortion that comes with mental health, disorders. The thinking is sort of very different and I hadn’t appreciate that at all. That was a big red flag and the immaturity as well. Someone who didn’t have, wasn’t as mature as he could be, coming to being married you’d expect a level of maturity switch, he lacked. That was a big red flag as well.

Prav Solanki: What do you mean by lack of maturity? I mean, I always get pulled off, prating around all the time. It’s easy, in relation to sort of maturity towards sort of the relationship itself or?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yes, more with the relationship, really being able to empathise with your partner more, to not get defensive even during arguments to try and understand your partner’s perspective-

Prav Solanki: Work as a team?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Exactly. Work as a team. I think that’s really important. There was quite a few flags that I didn’t… I saw it would work out and we could get through this. It was actually… he decided that he wanted out. It wasn’t-

Payman: He initiated that?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah, he kept threatening me throughout the marriage, with divorce and it didn’t actually come from me.

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And how did you feel? First your boss, not comfortable then the marriage, not comfortable, how did you feel about that, was that your lowest time?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah, I would say that was my rock bottom. It was a big change in my life. Going from really feeling like I’d set up my whole life. I knew where my life was going for that to be crashing down. I really felt it and I didn’t feel prepared going forward. I felt very lost and I feel like that’s very relatable actually. We all go through periods of loss and that’s what I was experiencing. I was going through grief and this cycle and not really knowing how to navigate it. I experienced, I would say like a roller coaster of emotions.

Prav Solanki: Mm-hmm (affirmative). What were the steps at the point where he, he said to you that you wanted to get divorced or whatever, and this time after all those threats, it was serious, I guess or you sort of took it more seriously?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I took it more seriously, but coming to think of it and analysing it more-

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: It was probably another threat. It was a threat that if you don’t actually change your behaviour, because look all of the problems are because of you and also I felt like that was the case. I felt like, well I’m not doing enough.

Prav Solanki: You normalised it.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I normalised a lot of the psychological abuse. I felt like it really was me at fault here. It was a threat that he made and I took it seriously and it just propelled. And then it happened. We did actually push forward with the divorce, but I’m so glad to be out of that situation. It was such a big heading point, a big shakeup for me. I’m so glad that I had that experience. I’ve learned so much from it and he’s certainly not a bad person. Just someone who hasn’t explored their mental health-

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: It’s just really impacted our relationship-

Payman: You still in touch?

Mahrukh Khwaja: No, I’m not in touch, now.

Prav Solanki: What was your biggest worry when you decided that you were going to take that threat? Seriously? What is life like on my own? Was it, what am I parents going to think or what were the things going and I just want to understand from a cultural background what are the issues that come to light when that becomes a reality.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Luckily or fortunately I would say, that I didn’t come from a place where my… I wasn’t under pressure from my family to stay in the marriage that was difficult. I’d been brought up to really work hard with all of my relationships. Naturally, I come from a place of compromise all the time. But there wasn’t that pressure at all that I needed to stick at something-

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: Just because we decided to get married, I’m really lucky in that respect. I know there are other women out there that feel the pressure, but I certainly didn’t experience that at all. I’m really grateful for that, what I experienced really, was a loss of identity, finding out who am I now out of this marriage and where do I go from from here?

Mahrukh Khwaja: How do I put my trust in people again? That was a big one, it felt like a massive loss of the dreams and hopes I had. It was… I’m working out how to accept that, that was over. It’s not straight forward and I didn’t appreciate that either. I had lots of expectations of where I wanted to be straight after the divorce and you really need to give yourself time and be very compassionate and kind to yourself, because it does take time to heal. I was very, very fortunate actually to be in a position where I felt it was okay to seek help. Not just from my family and friends, but also with a therapist. I think that was a big turning point

Prav Solanki: And in this situation, if you were to advise someone else out there in exactly the same situation, you were brave enough to reach out to a therapist, someone else might look at that as, I can’t do that or whatever, or I don’t want to talk to a complete stranger about my problems, right? Just talk us through what advice you’d give someone else found in the same situation that you found yourself in lost dreams, shattered, everything, what golden nuggets could you give to someone in the same situation that you were once?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I mean, I can understand why there’d anxiety about approaching therapy and really putting yourself out there and talking about very vulnerable topics, but it’s not as scary as you think. I think that’s the first thing I’d say. Just go and explore that option, there’s no stigma attached to this. There’s no shame attached to that. It’s going and speaking to an expert on the mind, it’s someone to help you and they will help you grow and help you work through the difficulty you’re in, I would really encourage people to go and try it and it could work for you. I think talking therapy works for most people. I would say.

Payman: Because there was a stigma attached to it and that’s why people are so worried about it, but it’s changed so much, hasn’t? In the last four years even though?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think definitely yes-

Payman: People are openly talking-

Mahrukh Khwaja: There’s a lot more openness around therapy now and I’d love to see more of that. It’d be great to talk openly more about the joys of going to a therapist and working on yourself. That’s the best, that’s where you need to invest your, your time and effort and money-

Prav Solanki: I work with a lot clients to make them or position them in front of their patients so that people find them or position them to be a type of dentist that patients want to come to. How do you find the right therapist for you and how did you go about finding the right therapist for yourself?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think what I did was I used Google and I had an idea of who might be a great therapist, but actually you don’t really know until you go out there and approach people.

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: For me I felt, I needed to be a woman and I’d love it if she was from an ethnic minority as well and maybe should understand some of the cultural aspects, nuances. That was the kind of person I was looking for-

Payman: Interesting.

Mahrukh Khwaja: But Luckily, it was one of the first people I touched base with. I had a phone conversation with her and I felt, it went really well. I felt a connection, I felt really drawn to her and we agreed to have our first session just to talk about what I wanted to gain out to therapy and I met with her and it just truly changed my trajectory and really really such a blessing to have met her. It just went really, really well.

Payman: From the first session?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah, I gained so much from that first meeting.

Payman: Really? Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: It was amazing.

Payman: How many meetings did you end up having? Would you still see her?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I see her now and again, if there’s any difficulty I’m going through or something I just want to explore with her. Initially I had probably about three months of therapy during the divorce and that was centred on accepting, the divorce was happening and how to move forward and it was really grief therapy, that’s when you’re going through that, you know the stages of grief.

Prav Solanki: And how often is that therapy, it’s over three months now. How often did you see your therapist?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Weekly? Every week-

Payman: On the couch, the way you-

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah, on a couch. It’s, it’s lovely. You’re in a really nice room, she has lavender kind of a vaporizer there, it smells really nice. She offers you tea, you’re having a really nice conversation with someone and you’re touching on really difficult aspects as well, but it’s someone that wants to see you push forward. It’s really a positive experience, but it needn’t be as scary as you, you think is, it’s just really a conversation you’re having when… and you’re getting some tools to help you push forward.

Prav Solanki: How different is that, to getting support from your best mate?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I mean, support from your best mate is always amazing, definitely, but it’s someone who… with a therapist, she doesn’t know you. It’s coming from a different angle. It’s very objective and you’ll be able to take the advice in a different way.

Payman: Sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Plus, a therapist has training in psychology, so can really understand your problems in a different way and for me actually, I learned probably best through understanding and understanding psychology behind things. It was really focused on understanding the psychology behind my husband and why he behaved in a certain way and what was his trauma? What was his-

Prav Solanki: Sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Problems, the shame that he experienced and how that impacted us and that was life changing.

Prav Solanki: I guess, they’ve been there and seen it so many times that they’re more qualified to just offer you that advice, right?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah and one awesome thing as well was learning more about the kind of resources that are available, such as Ted talks. That was the first time I read, I’d really delved into Ted and the youtube kind of videos and podcasts that are out there and I came across just really interesting authors. It was a period of growth for me. I was learning much more about the human mind and then very, very exciting time.

Prav Solanki: You came from absolutely nowhere as far as I’m concerned. You were nowhere on my radar for sure. Then all of a sudden this person appeared on social media and started sharing ideas, information, positivity through what seemed to start off with a few little Facebook posts, videos, images, to now sort of spreading the word and the message. Is that sort of your way of giving back or what what are you sort of aiming to achieve from that?

Mahrukh Khwaja: The purpose of the group is to really showcase positive female role models. I guess that and also creating a mentally supported profession. That all really comes from my journey and my passion for mental health. A lot of the positive posts I have are centred on wellness are really coming from or I’ve experienced and I’d love to kind of push forward with that message of self care. I feel like in our profession, mental wellness is not always really focused on and I feel like burnout and stress is a common issue amongst dentists currently.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Whenever I connect with other dentists, they will tell me about their story and stress and burnout and long hours and rumination over patient complaints, is a common one that I’m hearing. If there was a way to support our profession-

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: I’d love to really focus on that.

Payman: Do you feel like because you’d been through the process of getting better from your story, that you had with your life, do you feel like you’re better equipped to handle clinical problems, now, is it the same set of sort of tools, that you used to get yourself out of… if everybody should complain, would you use something similar?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yes, definitely. I feel like it’s massively helped me to deal with stress and rumination. It’s a big one and actually without this toolkit I would be struggling a lot more. I wouldn’t be able to recognise, first of all, when I was stressed, and when I was feeling the burnout to prevent it progressing-

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: Definitely just really learning about what tools, what coping mechanisms do I have, feel less stressed to manage my mental wellness. It’s made a massive impact-

Payman: Why don’t you give us an example, because there’s so many people, as you said, going through stress. I read that mental dental group with… it’s my favourite group on Facebook, say someone’s got a GDC complaint right now and they also hate their job and their husband isn’t responsive, but presence in the relationship, let’s talk about, of course there are personal things that are going to be right for you as a person and other general tools and let’s have an example, if it’s one out there, how can they click their mind into a positive mindset? First of all, I guess, you’re going to tell me, recognise that they’ve got a problem and… walk us through a few things.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think when I’m going through a stressful situation, whatever that might be. Definitely first of all is recognising and owning up to yourself that there is something going on. That’s a big step, first of all. And that doesn’t mean you’re a failure. It’s just a very human experience. We all go through these periods of first of all, recognising it, and then just really looking at your coping mechanisms. What can you do that will help you really feel a lot safer and calmer and more connected.

Mahrukh Khwaja: That really varies for everyone, for me that is gratitude practise, daily. I do this just before I go to bed. I’ll think of all the things I’m grateful for, but we feel those things. You feel that sense of connection. For me also positive affirmations have been really helpful-

Payman: What does that mean?

Mahrukh Khwaja: These are positive statements that you make and they’re statements that you repeat and can really help ground you. It might be as simple as ‘I’m safe. I’m loved’. I did this a lot during the divorce because I felt completely unloved. I mean I have family that loved me but-

Payman: Sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I did not feel safe. I felt the world was changing around me.

Payman: Do you literally say that statement several times, that makes you feel better?

Mahrukh Khwaja: During moments of a panic attack where I found it really useful to say those statements and… definitely. There so many. It could be focused on I am loving and I’m connected, I’m safe. I am going to have a happy day. My patients are grateful for the work I do. It can be a very incredible statement. You can take it anywhere, which is awesome.

Prav Solanki: Just out of curiosity, you talked earlier on about your morning routine and having a set routine. I’ve got my own, I’m really, really interested to hear about what your morning routine is to settle positivity for the day and then what happens at the end of the day, even if you’ve had a shit day?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yes. (Laughs).

Prav Solanki: Talk me through what happens at the end and how you deal with that.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I like to wake up and not go straight to my social media because-

Payman: What time do you wake up?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I wake up normally half seven. I think it’s key not to go straight for the social media because there’s so many messages that we get through social media and some of them are very negative and you have to have a lot of awareness to work around those messages. The key is to not go straight for that-

Prav Solanki: Is your phone always close by or do you deliberately put it somewhere else?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I mean, it’s in my room still.

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: But it’s not that far away, but it’s actually a conscious decision-

Payman: True.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Not to focus on it. That’s a key one. I then, obviously I brush my teeth and get ready but in a mindful way. Incorporating all the benefits of mindfulness, the sense of feeling present and I bring that to brushing teeth or having a shower. Really being present and grounded and that’s, you get such a sense of calm of just that.

Prav Solanki: Just describe to the listeners out there who think that mindfulness is a load of hocus pocus-

Mahrukh Khwaja: (Laughs).

Prav Solanki: Or more importantly, just don’t understand the meaning behind it, because if you’d have asked me about mindfulness two years ago, I just thought it was some smoke and mirrors.I wouldn’t have got it, explained to me.

Mahrukh Khwaja: You know the sense of calm you get when you go on holiday and you are fully aware of all the different senses. You’re just hyper tuned to the colours, the birds, the trees, the textures, the smells, and you just feel really alive. That’s the feeling of mindfulness and it’s not a feeling that we should just wait, you know, once a year, we should try and incorporate that daily.

Mahrukh Khwaja: It’s working out the best way of doing that. It doesn’t necessarily mean having to necessarily, be in these beautiful places. For me, mindfulness is a journey and it was a lot easier when I first started to be outside in nature and I felt the benefits of it more than it was easier to access because you can really kind of look at all the different senses and I still have a big attachment to nature. I really feel the healing quality of it just being around trees and animals.

Mahrukh Khwaja: You felt this big sense of something bigger than your problems but that’s the concept of mindfulness, but bringing it back to daily practise-

Payman: Sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Is a lot harder and it’s, it’s something that I’ve had to work on, but you can definitely do it in the little mundane tasks that you’re doing every day when you’re on autopilot and you can really… as I was mentioning, feel the sense of calm, by focusing on all the different senses.

Mahrukh Khwaja: When you’re in the shower instead of ruminating and thinking about all the things you’re going to do that day and your mind is very busy in that, just giving it a chance to be relaxed and quieter by really honing into the sensations of having a shower, the warmth of the water, the sensation of the soap, etc. It’s such a powerful, easy way of feeling more connected and happier.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I would say that I’d agree with you proud about being very sceptical about it.

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think if you don’t try it then, it’s very easy to dismiss it-

Prav Solanki: I agree, totally.

Mahrukh Khwaja: But it’s so powerful and actually doctors are recommending this in daily practise.

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: That’s how amazing it is and there’s so many studies out there to support it. Even if you look historically as well and you look at monks, they were practising all these mindful processes long, long, long time ago. There’s nothing new and gratitude isn’t anything new, positive affirmations, these are all things that-

Prav Solanki: Of course.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Come from a long history, but we’re kind of repackaging them in a different way.

Payman: Do you think that by equating those two things, since you agree about women and about mental health and by the way you can have a group about whatever you want but do you think that there’s a risk that you then equate those two things together in the minds of the audience, that women are always going to be stressed? Did you think about that or?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I actually hadn’t really thought about it until recently. My brother who’s also a dentist, he mentioned perhaps that there is a connection that people are going to make. For me it really was just focusing on what I’m passionate about and I hadn’t really read into it in a negative way.

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: I mean, stress and burnout is something that’s being experienced amongst both genders, not just women. It just happens that I have a women’s group and I love to talk about mental health.

Payman: Sure. I mean look, I like restaurants and I’m a dentist, I could start a restaurant dentistry, it doesn’t mean every dentist likes restaurants, right?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yes.

Payman: I get it. But because both of them are quite contentious kind of subjects, aren’t they, that’s the… What would you say to people who say we don’t need another woman’s group or we don’t need a woman’s group in dentistry? For my part, I will say that I think, it’s one of the best professions for women. My wife’s a dentist too. The idea that you can do part-time, is amazing. A lot of careers, if you did part time, you would really go backwards versus dentistry.

Payman: That’s not the case, the fact that patient trusts you is the key relationship. We know we don’t have to rely on bosses or, I mean you were just taught this about your bosses’ situation, but certainly we do. But the key relationship in dentistry, is the patient-dentist relationship-

Mahrukh Khwaja: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Payman: That’s fully controllable by the one person… What do you say about people to people who say there’s no need for this? We don’t need it.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I don’t think this group necessarily is for everyone and not everyone’s going to feel there is a need for it. I completely appreciate that. But coming from my perspective, my personal journey, I felt, I needed it, that I wanted to be connected with other women that were passionate and I wanted to see a profession rather than being centred on ego and competition, to foster kindness and lift each other up. I felt that was missing. It turns out that that message, people seem to be drawn to.

Payman: It seems to resonate with a lot of people?

Prav Solanki: Yeah, for sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: It seems to resonate with people.

Payman: For sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: But I appreciate, it’s not going to resonate with-

Payman: Everyone-

Mahrukh Khwaja: Everyone and that’s fine.

Prav Solanki: Fast forward now, you’ve talked to us about your daily routine, your positive affirmations, your mindfulness, all of which I’m a massive fan of. What’s your life like now, obviously if you’ve talked about, the doom and gloom of the past and how you’ve used therapy and stuff to get over it all, just fast forward with it now. Are you in a relationship now? Are you happier now? What’s your work, at the moment in terms of your dentistry and stuff like that? Just give us a snapshot of what your life is like today.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I’m a lot happier than I was a few years ago. I’m in a lot better mind space. I am in a relationship that’s really positive and it’s helping me grow. I’m very grateful for actually all of those clouds and made them into rainbows. I’m really, really grateful to have reframed that part of my life. I was in a lot before in my dentistry.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I was practising , NHS dentistry and felt like I was on a treadmill and just not really nourishing my excitement and passion and moving back to London and up-scaling and going on courses has really made me a lot more excited about being a dentist.

Mahrukh Khwaja: That’s been a big change for me. I’ve almost finished my postgraduate certificate in Aesthetic dentistry and I look forward to just using those skills to give more choices to my patients and really do a work that I feel is more meaningful. I would say that’s my snapshot.

Prav Solanki: Brilliant. Just moving on to dentistry, what type of dentistry do you really love doing? If you could pick your dream patient to walk through the door, as your next patient. What is your treatment modality or transformation, whatever, however you want to put it.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I love Orthodontics and just being on that journey with a patient over quite a few months, but making a massive difference to their self esteem. Personally, I really enjoy orthodontics, but I also love lots of other areas of cosmetic dentistry such as concept bonding, whitening. I think more importantly actually is just the connections that you make with patients and the rapport that you build. That’s key for me. Having that focus now, to build a relationship where I didn’t really do that with my NHS test industry.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think that’s been more exciting actually to really just learn about a patient-

Payman: People are… I’ve said this before, the thing I miss the most about being a proper dentist, is people, but interesting question and have you come across patients who you think need help psychologically and then you’ve put them on to that are you out looking out for that? Are you asking questions in the medical industry about mental health?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I always pick up on that. I have, there have been situations where I’ve had a patient and she’s come to me and she’s been really, really emotionally upset and really I spoke to her as my nurse did as well about her day and it transpired that, she had just recently been raped. That was there… There’s been lots of scenarios like that.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I’m always fascinated by people’s psychology and what’s going on in their life and I think that’s really important to do dentistry, to just look at the holistic kind of picture-

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: And ask questions. I did sign post her to the GP, she had been to the GP but felt that she’d been dismissed. It was nice to really actually talk.

Payman: Did you go to your GP when you had distress or that you’re not bother with that?

Mahrukh Khwaja: No. I went straight to a psychotherapist. For me, I felt it wouldn’t necessarily benefit me to go and seek a GP, wasn’t looking to be medicated. I wanted to focus on my thoughts.

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: That’s just kind of where I sit, but it’d be very different, you know, if I had different symptoms-

Payman: Sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Then I would definitely explore the GP route.

Payman: And men will come into the group?

Mahrukh Khwaja: If they share the same kind of values and passion, then-

Payman: (Laughs).

Mahrukh Khwaja: Sure, why not, but it is a women’s group.

Payman: Wait a minute, what is the group? What is it? Is it a forum? Is it a-

Mahrukh Khwaja: The group, it’s a women’s group, I have socials, where we meet up and we connect members.

Payman: How many members?

Mahrukh Khwaja: How many members in the groups? It’s interesting. It’s very difficult to-

Prav Solanki: Gauge.

Mahrukh Khwaja: To gauge because I have a social media platform. I’ve got quite a few members on the Facebook group-

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: I have Instagram as well then I have their socials as well. It’s hard to give you-

Prav Solanki: Roughly how many women dentists are you connecting with on a regular basis would you say or influencing?

Mahrukh Khwaja: There are about 420 members of the group on Facebook, but then on Instagram is over a thousand and I get lots of messages continuously-

Payman: Daily?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Definitely daily, wanting to connect. Some of them want to be interviewed, others wanting to-

Payman: Fantastic.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Share their journey and just kind of touch base about their mental health journey as well.

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: It’s pretty amazing, this journey over the past year-

Payman: You get time for it?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I’m really passionate about it, it’s not really-

Payman: It’s not a chore.

Mahrukh Khwaja: It doesn’t feel like it’s something I need to fit in. It’s something I enjoy, I’m not making any special time for. It’s something I’m passionate about, I don’t really feel it’s time consuming at all.

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative). When was it you went to that international conference for Women in the industry? Where was that?

Mahrukh Khwaja: That was in Benidorm around August time. The divas and dentistry convention-

Payman: They came from the US?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah. Delia Turtle has a women’s group as well in America. It was her conference, her first women’s conference-

Payman: Benidorm for them is Cancun for us.(Laughs)

Prav Solanki: [crosstalk 00:55:41](Laughs)

Mahrukh Khwaja: (Laughs). But actually it really was an amazing experience because we had connected with all these global superstars and they were all kind of sharing their wisdom and wanting to lift each other up, which is such a beautiful thing to see in dentistry, especially where a lot of us are. I feel like the professional is centred on egos at time rather than compassion, kindness, lifting each other up-

Payman: Definitely.

Mahrukh Khwaja: It was a really good experience.

Payman: That’s the funny thing. I’m definitely guilty of it myself, by the way, but under the guise of, what’s right for the patient, we can really be aggressive to each other-

Mahrukh Khwaja: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Payman: Because, hey, we’re doing it for the patient and it’s just the perfect storm. It just sets everything up to be really aggressive to each other because if this guise at the patient, and sometimes, the question of kindness, someone says something or does something and it’s awful. The one that comes to mind is there was a lady dentist. Do you remember the story?

Payman: She went to Dubai and she went into an argument with the immigration officer and then they took it to jail. I think she sold her story to The Sun or something, but there were attacks on her. I mean, why was she…the idea that, hey she’s a fellow dentist who ended up in jail she… I think she got her camera out whatever she did, you know what to buy. It might be like and I don’t know that there’s much we can do about it, but what you’re doing is certainly something, I’m sure, are there any man?

Mahrukh Khwaja: No, there’re actually there’s quite a few men and I’ve had lots of men messaged me to say that they really support the cause and they’re really… they’re not coming from a defensive perspective. They’re, they feel like it can empower women, which is great to see. Shaw’s from Digi marks, also connected with me and he did the logo. It’s-

Payman: That’s amazing.

Mahrukh Khwaja: It’s really amazing. I’ve had a lot of support, actually from men, a lot of support. Even when I go into my said dentistry course and I talk to the other guys, they’re really supportive of it as well. I think on the whole it’s been about… it’s been received really well.

Payman: You’re doing the conference or you’re not sure? Where are you with this?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Definitely I want to do a conference this year. The goal is hopefully by the end of the year to, to launch it.

Payman: Tell me about your ideal conferences, women will be, all this will be because of women, obviously most of you are obviously women-

Mahrukh Khwaja: Not necessarily-

Payman: I’m not more worried about it. I’m more worried about it, but go on, what would they be saying and doing. Would they just be talking about dentistry or they will talk about their journey as a woman through dentistry?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I’d like to have some dental components as well, but yes, certainly that would be great for them to talk about the journey and be able to connect with the audience because a lot of them want to know how did they overcome their barriers.

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think that’s really key.

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: If you have an emotional story that, that’s the best way I feel, to connect with the audience. But a big part of the conference will be centred on wellness and that’s one of my key messages with the group.

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: I’d love to see that, in a conference form. I’m yet to see it in the UK, I’d really love to make that vision come to life.

Payman: It’s amazing, doing a conferences is difficult and risky. Risky. That’s the key thing I would say to anyone who’s thinking of doing a conference. It’s a high risk. But how are you getting on from the sort of financial perspective for this group? Is it a charity funding thing by donations or is it, are people paying to be part of it or what’s the story? How’s it financed?

Mahrukh Khwaja: There’s no finance at the moment. It’s just me putting my message out there and seeing if it resonates. I don’t have any sponsorship at all, for the conference certainly, I need sponsorship to make up and to get to where I want to. But there are certainly challenges. I can appreciate that, but it’s also really exciting as well-

Payman: Of course.

Mahrukh Khwaja: That, something new can come and we can have different conversations in dentistry. Also, I’m helping to create a seat at the table where I feel, perhaps we’re not always given that seat, it’s nice to actually just create that-

Payman: Something that comes to mind is dentistry is actually a very female dominated situation. If you think of-

Mahrukh Khwaja: The number of students graduating-

Payman: I’m not even talking about dentists, I’m talking about nurses. Dental practises are overwhelmingly female. Talk to me about that. Are we just talking dentists? Are we talking, the team, are the team members involved?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Definitely within the… Are you talking about within the group?

Payman: Go on.

Mahrukh Khwaja: The group definitely doesn’t consist of just dentists, hygienists, therapists, nurses.

Payman: Really?

Mahrukh Khwaja: It’s not definitely focused with dentists and the socials we’ve had. We’ve had lots of hygienists and therapists being involved.

Payman: Great.

Mahrukh Khwaja: And nurses, which is really nice to see from kind of connecting, coming together, sharing their experiences.

Payman: If you had to be remembered for something professionally, what would you like it to be, your ideal thing? What would you like it to be or what would you like people to say about you and your impact?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I would love for them to say I made a difference to their mental wellbeing and it might be something as small as I read a post and it really resonated with me and I’ve been going through a difficult time and thanks for just being open about your journey. Something as simple as that. It doesn’t need to be, you know, something really big. I’d really really love it if I was remembered for that.

Payman: Does it happen anyway? Did you get DM’s saying that? Must do.

Mahrukh Khwaja: All the time.

Payman: Does that feel good? That must feel good.

Mahrukh Khwaja: It’s really amazing to have these open conversations and conversations, I wasn’t having before. Really nice to connect with different dentists and, and be really open and vulnerable about where I’m coming from and sharing my story. Appreciating how it can help someone else that might be going through similar struggles and-

Payman: Give us some of the positive role models you’ve spoken to and some of the things that, I don’t know, let’s imagine I’m a young woman undergrad and looking for positive role models to follow. Who are they? What are some of the stories some of these interesting stories that you’ve heard?

Mahrukh Khwaja: There’s certainly quite a few women that I’ve connected with-

Payman: Give some examples, who have you spoken to?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Bernice Ganda Sade McGrath [Shavananow] there’s a number of them. I mean, all of them. I don’t really need to name drop any of them to be honest because all of them have been really inspiring and positive in different ways. They bring different things to the conversation. Malia Ajanajad was a big one for me in, when I met her, I felt she’s promoting a type of female leader that I would love to see more of. Someone who’s assertive and kind and loving, has softer components to her and it’s the kind of leader that I naturally aspired to. It was great to to see and talk to her about her journey.

Payman: It’s a conversation that happens quite a lot in corporate life, isn’t it? If a woman does really well in the boardroom, can she do that without becoming a man, without going masculine.

Mahrukh Khwaja: There’s an element of that.

Payman: That’s what you’re speaking to.

Mahrukh Khwaja: There’s an element of that and I feel like women-

Payman: She has managed to keep her female side well.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I’d love to see that more. For me, I connect with that type of woman a lot more than the woman that’s more aggressive, but certainly I think women can be whoever they choose to be.

Payman: Of course.

Mahrukh Khwaja: They can be celebrated in lots of different ways, but it’s really nice personally, to see someone who speaks openly about their emotions yet they’re still doing really well. And you can still be a woman and appreciate all of the emotional side of you and yet still go really quite far. In fact that to you’re just more likely to connect and empathise with the patient. It really does make you a better clinician rather it being something negative.

Payman: Some of those stories we’re going to have slightly I’m sure, and I’m Shavana by the way… There’s some great stories with those and then as you say, so different to each other.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I mean there’s this well less known dentists out there as well-

Payman: Of course.

Mahrukh Khwaja: And they’ve all got very valid and interesting perspective, it’s really nice to connect with them.

Payman: On the station.

Prav Solanki: You did great.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Thank you so much for having me.

Prav Solanki: Thank you for your time. It’s been great.

Speaker 4: This is Dental Leaders where you go to go, one one, emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thank you for tuning in guys to the dental leaders podcast. Just got little requests to make. If you’ve got a suggestion of somebody else who we should be interviewing or somebody who’s got a really strong story, powerful story to share with us, please send us a message and help us connect with that individual so we can bring their stories to the surface.

Payman: Thank you so much for taking the time guys. If you got some value out of it, think about sharing it with your friends and subscribing to the channel.