[00:00:00] I never hated dentistry.

[00:00:01] No, you love it, you

[00:00:03] Love it more than I loved it.

[00:00:04] I will never be able in my life to hate dentistry you love. I will never be able to do that. I love dentistry and I think it’s it’s. Other dentists probably have. This, too is not that you hate it or you don’t want to do it. Is that that concern that you might hurt someone, you know? Yeah. And you don’t want that because you care too much.

[00:00:27] You know, I think

[00:00:29] The person I like, I like, I like where you’re coming from, Alex. You’re a very special person to be with thinking like that.

[00:00:34] I think thank you. Think, you know, I’m not sure if it works like in my

[00:00:38] Advantage, but I’m just

[00:00:40] I’m just saying like probably my fear was coming from. But what if I really make a mistake like and I hurt someone, you know?

[00:00:53] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki

[00:01:11] Gives me great pleasure to welcome Alex Luzinski onto the podcast. The reason for this conversation is that I saw a couple of posts by Alex on the Dental group that is for people who want to leave dentistry, and some of our listeners will remember. Episode 60 one with Tom Youngs, who wrote, My great good friend who left dentistry after only one year as an associate, and I felt like it was such a massive loss to the profession. And then we heard his story and you know what he was doing. So I wanted I wanted to speak to Alex because her post really touched me. It was a very gentle post about how it’s gone. She hasn’t completely left dentistry as of yet, but the journey and the first steps and often those first steps of the hardest steps. And so I really want to hear it from her. Lovely to have you, Alex.

[00:02:00] Thank you for having me and thank you for, you know, inviting me because I never

[00:02:05] Thought that post

[00:02:06] Will have such an impact. I’m happy and I’m also nervous because I don’t do podcast. You know, I’m my mom, I do lunch, dinner, breakfast and stuff like that, and

[00:02:16] Then I go to work. So this is really fancy for me.

[00:02:19] I thought, if I if I’m not,

[00:02:21] If you listen to any rules, that’s your job to like, tell me when to stop. Do you listen

[00:02:27] To some podcasts?

[00:02:28] I do. I do listen to podcast. I find it very soothing, you know, especially I always like the radio voices. They give me peace and quiet. And yeah, I do listen to funny

[00:02:40] Because sometimes I invite guests onto the podcast and they say, What’s the podcast? And then you have to say, it’s just a conversation. That’s all it is. You? Yeah, yeah. And because they’ve never listened to one, they get really worried about it. But, you know, I was really happy. You accepted.

[00:02:53] Thank you so much. Alex, tell me

[00:02:55] Some of your back story. You know, I’m very interested in, OK, we’re going to get onto the point of you decided dentistry wasn’t 100 percent for you. We’re really interested in as a kid or just when you were about to go into dental school, what you thought dentistry would be.

[00:03:12] And and by the way, I think all of us find it, you know, different

[00:03:16] To what we thought it was going to be. I found university itself completely different to what I thought. I had a picture of university from a, you know, an American movie with one people playing guitars, you know, just ridiculous, childish vision, let alone dentistry and what that was going to be and what it’s going to be like to be a dentist. And even though I spent some time watching a dentist, you don’t get anything from that to tell you you don’t really understand what, what the hell is going on or the struggle is going through in the mouth. It was a different world. What was it different? I mean, tell me about what you thought it was going to be, what it was in dental school for you. And then when it started, you know, feeling like it wasn’t right or whatever.

[00:03:57] So I don’t think like as a kid, you know, when when you start thinking, Oh, what am I going to do with my life?

[00:04:04] I don’t remember

[00:04:06] Me ever thinking, Oh, I want to be a dentist, because in Romania, especially like during my childhood, yes, your thought how to take care of your teeth and stuff. But it’s not something as important as other things, you know? So I wasn’t paying very much attention to dentists and clinics, and I wasn’t in the right, you know, environment to to meet those people until one day when in my block of apartment, there was this young lady with great energy, a fantastic energy like he impacted me the moment I saw her, you know? And later on, you know, it’s like whenever someone moves in your neighbourhood and in Romania, we’re very friendly. So we we all jump to help her and stuff like that. So I started talking to her and she was studying to be a dentist in Romania, in my city, in Yash. And it was very interesting because she was practising. Obviously in Romania, we are allowed to practise starting year for we are allowed to practise on patients as long as you find someone willing to, you know, work in your mouth with their mentor and stuff. And I said, Yes, absolutely, you know, and obviously I had I had some problems. Obviously, I wasn’t brushing my teeth properly and she was extremely gentle, but at the same time, very, very passionate.

[00:05:30] And she asked me to be that patient for her. Yes, yes.

[00:05:33] But also, we were kids, you know, it’s like nine difference between me and her. So she wanted also to help me. Like her goal wasn’t to OK, I want to show you, you know, about this profession and stuff was, come on. You have this opportunity to have your teeth fixed and you can help me as well. So it worked both ways. But you know, I got my teeth fixed and much more than that. They got like, I want to become a dentist, and I stuck

[00:06:02] With her until

[00:06:03] She. Completed her studied and studies, and she became a dentist and she opened her clinic because in Romania, it’s it’s a bit easier. I mean, you need to do a lot of sacrifices, but it’s a straightforward situation if you have some parents that can support you to open a clinic. And I was in high school and I remember going to school and then after school, I was going into the clinic because they were very close to each other and helping her out, you know, like a like a shadowing or stuff like that. And I loved it. I mean, the interaction with the patients, you know, all the interesting things. The x rays do impressions. For me, it was, whoa, this is like something that I definitely want to do. And that was it. I never thought about other career or something else I want to do, and I just went for it. That’s why I became a dentist, and I’m still I think she’s my mom. She’s my godmother. You know, in Romania, we have a godfather and godmother when you get married. So like witnesses here, yeah, so so she’s she’s my godmother. So we we’re still in touch and she still has the same clinic and stuff, and it’s fantastic. I think it’s quite quite amazing.

[00:07:13] So, so when you went to dental school, then what were you like as a dental student and what were you? What was your impression of dentistry and dental school?

[00:07:23] I think I loved it. I loved it, and I struggled at the same time because it’s a lot of volume, as you know, it’s a

[00:07:30] Lot of things to

[00:07:32] Learn. In Romania, we have like three years of general medicine within the dentistry faculty, basically. And after that, you start studying like teeth, basically with morphology and everything else that comes with it. So starting year four and until the year for I wasn’t like, OK, do I like it? I don’t like it. But it was OK. I was. I was going through it quite easily. It wasn’t difficult for me to pass the exams and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. But I wasn’t like obsessed with it, you know, like I wore, this is really my passion. The moment I started to to, you know, to

[00:08:08] Get into

[00:08:09] The dentistry field more, I started to see that I like it, you know, and I found a really good mentor, my prosthetic. He was fantastic and I again, I stuck with her because it was the passion that I was seeing in these people. This is what attracts me to it, you know, and I stuck with her and she helped me graduate, you know, and she helped me with the disease, and I had my disease in prosthetics and it was very nice. I really enjoyed my last two years because we did a lot of hands on. We have a we have like a part of the university has like a little clinic. When people with, you know, that are not very well financially, they can go and have their teeth fixed there by students while the mentor is there. So it was it was an amazing opportunity and I was there from the morning until the the late evening. Always, always, always. At some point there were some people like throwing me out, you have to go home. I mean, there are other people that need to study like, it’s so much, so much. So I enjoyed it. I really, really like it.

[00:09:16] I mean, you qualified and did you work in Romania at all or did you?

[00:09:19] I didn’t work in Romania. I told my teacher actually was a little bit upset with me because she was hoping to become her assistant, you know, to go into the university and to teach as well eventually. But I always wanted to come to to England because I said, I need to. I need to give my family a better education. We had, you know, Romania is it’s a good country, but also we have some problems. And I said, my kids needs to have better educational system than this.

[00:09:46] Did you have kids already or you said your future kids?

[00:09:49] I my future kids. I had I had my first kid in my last year of university. Ok, so while I was doing my thesis and stuff, I also gave birth. Like two weeks later, I had the exam and stuff, and it was fantastic. I loved it.

[00:10:03] So when did you get married in 2012?

[00:10:06] Year five, we do six years in Romania of university. So Year five I got married. Year six I had a kid and then next year we moved to London.

[00:10:17] Is that is that common or is that uncommon? Because that seems uncommon for me. Someone in middle of Dental

[00:10:23] School getting married? I don’t know.

[00:10:26] We had other colleagues getting married, so I was the only one. But I understand what you’re what you’re saying. Yes, it’s it’s again, it’s a lot of volume to deal with my husband. He was studying general medicine, so he finished medical studies. So maybe that’s why we did it.

[00:10:46] He was a OR.

[00:10:48] Yes. No, he’s actually smaller than me. He’s younger with two years and he had to. I had to leave him behind and we moved here and then he kept travelling. Romania, U.K.

[00:11:00] So find the process.

[00:11:01] Yeah, yeah. Well, you know the life of an immigrant. I was I was telling you before, we’ve got eight Romanians working at Enlightened, so yeah, I think we’ve got, you know, living in London, working in London, we’ve got more more immigrants than than than local people. But the question of when you came over, what were your initial impressions or had you been before or what was the story?

[00:11:22] So I’ve been in 2011 for three months and I did some shadowing on Harley Street, believe it or not.

[00:11:30] Well, it was fantastic.

[00:11:32] I loved it. You know, I mean, I was from Romania and I never left the country before. So you need to give me a bit of credit that, you know, everything was fantastic. You could have sent me to any country and I would have loved it. But I really had this connexion with this, with this country and with London, and I liked it. And I said, I want to come in practise here,

[00:11:58] You know, get up and go to sort of leave. A lot of people associate that with people who, you know,

[00:12:04] I don’t know, desperate or

[00:12:07] Or whatever. I mean, you said, OK, you wanted just a better education for your kids. But as a dentist in Romania, you could probably be one of the highest up people in society, and you could probably put your kids in very good schools. You know, the education system in Romania, it’s pretty good. So what was was it? Was it more to do with exploring and seeing the world? Kind of.

[00:12:27] Oh, I wanted something different. You don’t want to open the clinic at the ground floor of my apartment building and have everybody come to me because I was seeing Angkor, my godmother. You know, that was having the cleaning and she wasn’t like the happiest person ever. Like, every single day when she came back from work and stuff. But I wanted something different. I always want something more, you know? And if I could make a change to achieve that, I would do it. And we had a small baby. I mean, Sophia was like, probably if it wasn’t even a year old when we moved here, we just took suitcases. And that’s it. We just came in, Wow. And I never regretted it.

[00:13:09] Tell me about your first job, first job interview in the UK. Did you have to give it as well? Oh no,

[00:13:15] No, because I always work in private field. Ok, so it was it was. It was a very gradual. That’s another thing I would like to talk more about. Actually, maybe other people will learn from it, not people that study here, because I think you have a very good way to teach your students what to look for and what to be careful of when they take a job. But for people that are coming from other countries, it’s a bit more difficult to get to the bottom of those kind of informations. And whatever is official there, it’s not enough to be honest with you. So the first job I had I had it was with I was like, I was hired like a Dental nurse and it was a fantastic dentist. I’m not sure. I mean, I was, I will say

[00:14:03] His name, but Dr

[00:14:05] Jerome Siba, he has a he has a clinic, a fantastic clinic in Rochester Ro in Victoria, and he was opening it up and he was looking for a Dental nurse. And I said, Listen, I have

[00:14:19] To get into a

[00:14:20] Clinic at least to see things, and I’m happy to work as a dental nurse to get things going and for me to get used to the, you know, well, the terms and all the processes and everything you know is you English

[00:14:32] With your English? Pretty strong at that point, you know?

[00:14:34] Yeah, I think it was good. It wasn’t like fantastic. I mean, it’s not fantastic now, but it was OK. You know, it was it was quite okay. And he was happy. So the first job was with with with him as Dental as his Dental nurse. And and he was very supportive and extremely kind, and I learnt so much from him.

[00:14:53] And while I was

[00:14:54] Doing the Dental nurse, I was still applying, you know, because it’s that circle like, no experience, no job, no job, no experience, right? So nobody would take a risk to hire me as a private dentist, you know, just to start working without prior experience in this country. So I said, Well, I still have to do something, and I was never afraid to to start to the bottom. I mean, for me to get somewhere, you need to start somewhere. So I would just do it. So I did it. It was fantastic. I started applying for other jobs and I stumble upon Harley Street whitening clinic job that was hiring dentists to do whitening, cleaning, whitening, treatment and stuff and say, Yeah, well, I think I can do that. I was I was aware of all the, you know, the whitening problems and that only dentists can do well. I’m a dentist. That’s a good thing. I can do it. You need to have I have insurance so I can do it. That’s fine. The clinic is on high street, so it’s a clinic. It’s, you know, it’s out there, so it’s OK. So I went on and do it, and I did it like for a few months only.

[00:16:01] What was that called?

[00:16:03] It was a state is something with. Well, I have it because there’s a big story about it. Oh God.

[00:16:12] Just tell me this story is bad

[00:16:16] Because that’s where all my, my, my fears about dentistry started. I worked just for it from August until February because I was keep applying for jobs because I was wanting an associated job in a clinic, you know?

[00:16:32] What was it

[00:16:33] Like? Light activated? Exactly.

[00:16:35] Yeah, yeah. Like, we still have them, right? But I was I was. I took with my. I’m very I’m very reluctant to anything to anything. So I remember, like yesterday, I put on my insurance I was with, did you at that moment I said, I’m working this time in the clinic because I was doing some hours as a dental nurse with Jerome. Yeah, yeah. But also I’m doing a non-clinical hours and I wrote it down and I send it to them because I want to make sure everything is OK. You know that I’m allowed to do that. Yeah, I said

[00:17:12] Non-clinical treatments

[00:17:14] Of whitening, you know, like I have, I have the papers and everything, and they said they’d find the words. They didn’t tell me anything or ask questions. What what kind of clinic is that? So I start doing that. I did it for for six months, August until February. Centre for Dentistry. That is gone now. They gave me a job in south and central, spent it in Sainsbury’s. Yes, I worked for them four and a half years. It was amazing. Which practise? Oh, I worked in a lot of them. I worked in Chichester and rusting down in Brighton. I’ve been to

[00:17:46] All of those. I’ve been to all of

[00:17:47] Those because I was happy to travel. Listen, give me a one. I’ll do it. You know, I’ll do it. It keeps me busy. I was like, that seven, maybe not seven, but six days a week. I’ll do it. I was hunger for dentistry, for teeth.

[00:18:02] Yeah.

[00:18:02] So March eight, March 2016, I went to take over my my first real job, you know? And a month later, my manager, my manager from the whitening clinic called me, Well, Alex, we have a problem because we have some patients that complained about some problems, you know, whitening and stuff. They said, OK, I’m calling the insurance. I kept it cool. You know, I freaked out on the inside, kept cool on the outside, and it was really ugly. It was really ugly because obviously the manager disappeared. Not just that, but he tried to offer money to those clients. Meanwhile, obviously I called my insurance. They said, Send us anything you have, we’ll take care of it like always happens. And it was good. It was good, but it kept going for four years.

[00:18:52] Bloody hell, what was GDC involved?

[00:18:55] No. Wow. Well, yes.

[00:18:57] Four years at the very first. Well, it wasn’t the first job, but it was the second. But my real job was the dentist. Yeah, and if if there wasn’t written in my insurance, the clinic name and what I was doing there, they wouldn’t have fought for me.

[00:19:16] But what kind of complaints were they

[00:19:19] That they had burns and stuff?

[00:19:21] Oh, did they have burns?

[00:19:22] They had a little bit of burns. That’s true. But you know, I didn’t know you need to put the badge number. I didn’t know the clinic was like I was a dentist. I was insured and I was everything was in order with me. But the way the

[00:19:35] Manager was dealing

[00:19:37] With everything else, it wasn’t okay and nobody told me that because obviously I had an induction and I was inducted by a fellow Romanian dentist that could have told me, you know, listen, you need to be careful of this and this and this and take as many notes. We didn’t have a system, we didn’t have a software. They were only like some, some forms they were signing. And that’s it, you know,

[00:20:00] And you was right. You were going to place on Harley Street as far as you were concerned, so that it must be

[00:20:05] Exactly because when I did the shadowing, it was a proper clinic, you know, and with with dentists and with nurse. And when I saw the job, I said, Oh, I know that place. It’s a really fancy place, so it must be regulated and stuff. And it wasn’t so I it was the big, you know, bump in my face SoC. But you know, it was very interesting because I had to make a decision like, what do I do? I took with a really good friend in dentistry, and she said, You need to tell everyone, Alex, you need to stay because it’s a real thing. Your mental health will be affected. And I don’t think if you will be able to work, you know, because it’s always at the back of your mind, oh my goodness, I have this claim. And it wasn’t one. So it was three patients complained. All of them had the treatment at the same day in my very last day at work. Wow. So it was it was unbelievable.

[00:20:59] I thought, did you have a

[00:21:00] Bad day or do you think they set you up somehow?

[00:21:03] Listen. Two of them, they are doctors, the patients, so the the patients, yes, they were doctors, not dentists, doctors. Wow. And they were having. They were having the wedding. So two of them are connected. But the third one is not. But it was the patient before them.

[00:21:21] It just seems like too much of a coincidence isn’t there?

[00:21:24] I don’t know.

[00:21:24] What was it.

[00:21:26] But listen, it freaked me out for four years.

[00:21:29] I wasn’t. You know,

[00:21:31] It’s it’s a I want to talk so much about this because I think so many dentists and I had, like my case wasn’t like, you know, really serious damaging with long term problems. You know, it was something cosmetic. And you know, you have all these physicians that analyse your patients and they are telling you if there really are problems or not and stuff like that. And most of the time, they were not. None of their problem was my business, my negligence. Let’s say yes, but the powder was that I ruined their wedding.

[00:22:06] Yeah, so they

[00:22:08] They kept pushing that. And then they they accused me that they had to split up because of I ruined their wedding and stuff like that. So it was so it was so ugly. It was so ugly. But eventually, after four years, I think it was May, May 2020. So it’s very fresh for me. I’m still celebrating, you

[00:22:26] Know, when everything

[00:22:28] Was cleared out and the insurance pay and you know, they had to leave the country for whatever reason, and that was it. But for me, I was. It will always stay with me. You know, it will be you.

[00:22:40] Let me tell you, because you know, I started we’ve been doing whitening for 20, 20 years now and we started with light activated whitening and and it wasn’t at all your fault. Yeah, there’s there’s some system, some situations and some viscosity of gels. Yeah, when it’s a very watery gel and particularly, I’m sure this guy was giving you something, something really cheap and nasty. He was he was supplied.

[00:23:05] Obviously, it was all eBay stuff because I did my

[00:23:08] Research afterwards, you know, I mean,

[00:23:10] Powder powder gel mixed with liquid. That’s such a watery thing that it seeps under any damn that you put there. And and the thing is, as a dentist, do you think it’s protected? You put the stuff there and then it’s been seeping under. Yeah, I know the situation you’re talking about,

[00:23:28] But not

[00:23:28] Just that the guy the manager was, you know, they were selling because after that I heard that they were selling the packages with the treatments on Groupon. These Groupon, I think the green thing and you know, if they bought a certain package, they would send them whitening kit for home. So all these three patients had the home whitening kit as well. Yeah, but how how do I prove? Because because I didn’t have any notes, I didn’t have any system. I did. I mean, he he did provide some things that the consent form I took from the patient and stuff, but that was it. There was nothing written about, Oh, they use the home kit whitening like we do in a clinic. You know, this patient will follow like after the surgery enlightened, for example, they will sleep with it at home as well and stuff like that. And you take the batch number and you take, Oh my goodness, I wasn’t aware of all that. So obviously it looks like it was my fault not knowing all these things and and asking things, because if something doesn’t look right and you don’t ask, it’s as much as your fault, right? Yeah.

[00:24:35] So Typekit a while to get over that trauma, I’m sure I bet you still still feel it a little bit right.

[00:24:41] I feel it 100 percent. I don’t think you can ever, because it’s not even I mean, then I worked and I continue this friend of mine. I was telling you, she said, maybe you should not work. And I understand her advice because it wasn’t easy to go every single day in a practise and see people with the same confidence. And, you know, with the same, well, even later,

[00:25:06] Are you talking about later in centre for dentistry?

[00:25:09] Absolutely. You would never know

[00:25:11] How I mean this. All these complaints ended in 2020. The Payman. This all finished in 2020. So all these years, if I would have listened to some people, I wouldn’t have worked. Which doesn’t, doesn’t make any sense, but I I fought through. So I fuelled through this years like whenever we had even a system in the family because I was so stressed out whenever I was. You know, you get this when the insurance people send you stuff from the solicitors and stuff, you need to put the password in and then you open the document. And my husband was doing it for me, reading it. And then when I was getting home, telling me in a very soft, kind, gentle manner, what’s going on? Because the moment I would see that I got an email from these people, I was like, Oh my god, oh my god.

[00:25:59] Oh, what a lovely guy he is. What a lovely thing.

[00:26:02] Amazing. It’s very it’s very important to have a support. I don’t think it’s

[00:26:07] Right to tell

[00:26:08] Someone that deals with a complaint or you need to stop working because I mean what that would do to them, you know, just what? Stay at home. I would stay at home, like for four years, and during this time I had a second baby. But still, you know, I try to keep it cool and just go on with it. And I was what gave me confidence, obviously, was dentistry because my patients were fantastic. My manager was fantastic. I don’t know. I don’t know what the successful dentist is. Maybe you do. I have no idea. But whenever my patient lived, like whenever someone leaves the clinic happy, I think that’s a success. So I never, ever, ever since that whitening complaint had another one, like in a proper clinic that has a complaint system, you know how to manage the complaints whenever they happen and stuff like that. And that almost I had to prove to myself that, you know, you actually can do it. And that was just like a

[00:27:08] Hiccup

[00:27:08] Early on in your career to have.

[00:27:10] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:27:11] And yeah, the fact that you were coming to a new system where you didn’t know. I mean, if, for instance, if you said to me whitening clinic Harley Street, I would immediately say, be careful. Because a lot of those are run by non dentists that are owned by non dentists and people who think whitening is whitening. And like you said, they go for the cheapest product. Maybe they could at internet marketing to get people in. They are, but but that’s about the end of it, you know, and to put it on Harley Street to make it look like it’s, you know, the people, the kind of person who comes to Harley Street thinking they’re going to see a top end person and a top end clinic. And then the clinic is run by a non dentist and it’s using all the cheapest stuff. And procedures aren’t right. It’s, you know, you walked into that from not knowing the situation. In the same way as if I turned up in Romania tomorrow to set up my whitening company, I’d end up making a whole lot of big mistakes that you wouldn’t make. Yeah, because you know, the system, the

[00:28:11] Exact and that’s the awareness I would like to raise, you know, for a lot because maybe I mean, I think, as you say, if you’re here, you know your stuff, you know, especially in London, it’s impossible not to learn these things. But when you come from a different country and you see someone willing it to give you a job and you see that you tick all the boxes that you’re actually allowed to do, the job said, why not do it? Why is this people operating a business if I’m not supposed to work there, you know, then tell

[00:28:41] Me, Look, you should, you know, on the face of it, you start working in centre for Dental Street, you start getting happy patients, you start doing the kind of work that you were trained to do. Yeah. What went wrong?

[00:28:52] Nothing.

[00:28:53] But then why we leave

[00:28:54] It was always, I mean, my mental health completely changed. I don’t think I mean, I really hope whoever is listening this podcast and dealt with some complaints, I would really like them to send me a message to tell me if they 100

[00:29:11] Percent got over it. I hear you. I hear you because

[00:29:15] I didn’t, and I don’t think I will ever do. Listen, I

[00:29:19] Still want this, Alex. That’s ridiculous. That’s ridiculous. I’m sorry. I don’t mean to say it’s ridiculous because

[00:29:24] It’s it’s not like

[00:29:25] It’s still reality. It’s your reality. The other means

[00:29:28] The word was wrong.

[00:29:29] Ridiculous is the wrong word.

[00:29:31] But but but you will get over there. Yeah, I mean, you know, I know people in much worse situations and gotten over it. Yeah. And you know, I don’t know you. I don’t know

[00:29:43] Exactly whether you will or

[00:29:44] You won’t. But my point is, you know, it’s like, it’s like, I don’t know, like like a like a death.

[00:29:52] Yeah.

[00:29:53] You’ll never forget it. Hmm. But in the end, you know, you move on from it. You know, well, if God forbid someone

[00:30:04] Close to you passes

[00:30:05] Away, I’m not going to say you’re ever going to get over that because, you know, that’s that’s a that’s a thing that you know, you’re never going to get over, but you can get back to the person you were. I wouldn’t write yourself off that quickly, you know what I mean? Very lucky to do

[00:30:21] That, I think. But look at you, you’re very wise, right?

[00:30:25] I probably you lived

[00:30:26] Like four times more than I lived so far.

[00:30:29] So that’s my job to tell you these things, then.

[00:30:32] So it’s it’s it’s amazing that you tell me this and I think you’re absolutely 100 percent right.

[00:30:38] But it’s like being scared

[00:30:40] Of heights, you know, you can’t really control it. And you know, when we will go to like my transition and stuff and when I took some space out of it, I started to miss it. And I understood going back in the clinic to get them actually doing a brilliant job. Of course, I’m not, you know, like maybe a good cosmetic surgeon kind of dentist that does impeccable bonding techniques and stuff. But the way I treat a patient is always fair. And it’s with gentleness, and I think fair is the most important word here. Yes. And I do what’s right for them, and I understand that and I feel it every single time I’m in the clinic. But somewhere, you know, deep inside, it’s always that very bad memory. It’s not just what happened, but how long it took to clear out, and it’s a reliving. Every time you get to go through this process, you understand that it’s an ongoing feeling that you’re experimenting. Basically, you’re you’re feeling basically and maybe it’s something, you know, maybe I need to educate myself, I need to

[00:31:52] Talk

[00:31:53] To in this country. We’re going through a nightmare

[00:31:56] Legal situation

[00:31:58] As dentists. Yeah, in that, yeah, more dentists are getting more complaints and being sued by more patients than than in every other country apart in New Zealand, apparently so more than America, you know, which is, you know, we were always used to look at American dentists and laugh about how they’re getting sued all the time. But it’s happening more here. And I know this isn’t helping your little,

[00:32:20] But it’s very encouraging.

[00:32:24] But but the thing is talking to you, I can see you. You’re one of those dentists. We need more dentists like you. Yeah, more people who

[00:32:32] Are doing it for the patient

[00:32:34] Fair. You know, you’re obviously you’re an enthusiastic person. The profession needs more people like you. And it’s a damn shame of people like you who someone who’s gentle and responsive. You know, the problem is someone who’s gentle yourself. I’m not talking about with your hands, but a gentle person gets hurt more by this sort of thing than someone who’s hard and just shrugged it off. But you know, I know dentists just just to help you out. I know dentists have been sued every year for the last four years.

[00:33:02] And you know,

[00:33:03] The more it happens, the less they worry about it. Because they figure out, they figure out the system of what is what is a real complaint brokers and so forth. And, you know, complaints they shouldn’t happen. But but you should think of them as part of the job. Now in UK dentistry, it’s easy for me to say I’m not practising anymore.

[00:33:26] And not even fair. Yeah, when I

[00:33:29] Was practising, when I was, I stopped practising 10 years ago. But when I was practising it, just this thing just wasn’t a big issue. You know, it wasn’t as big an issue as it is right now, and I know a lot of the younger dentists are stressing a lot and we’re about to do a whole mental health month invited talk to people about I know the number one cause of mental health problems in dentistry is patient complaints, so you should join that little walk we’ll talk about.

[00:33:55] Absolutely.

[00:33:56] So, OK, so you decided it damaged you. You thought irreversibly and and you decided you were going to pull away from dentistry and look at other avenues. Yes. Tell me about that story. So how did it, how did it? You know the confidence it takes? You know, we’ve only ever done dentistry, right?

[00:34:15] So that’s the hard part of it, because I ever I mean, anything I read in anything I learnt was for dentistry, for teeth, and I have a very good friend of mine, a very good friend of mine. Her name is Alex. And she she always says, like, but you have transferable skills, you know? I mean, I hear this so many times. I’m a bit tired of it. And she has a very good heart and she’s amazing and she’s very, very important to

[00:34:49] Me,

[00:34:50] But doesn’t work that way. It doesn’t want you content. No, she’s not the dentist, she’s a she’s a she’s she’s practising. She she worked for Facebook and now she’s on Amazon. Well, she’s a very good. She’s practising now to be a coach and to help you understand some like not a coach, like old coach, but like a really important one. She she helps people like high level CEOs and stuff to do.

[00:35:18] You do you believe that there aren’t some things about them to help you?

[00:35:22] Absolutely, they are. But tell me, because I applied to many jobs, especially when COVID hit, hit and stuff. Yeah. Who cares about them and who takes two three minutes to understand what my transferable skills are?

[00:35:39] You know, it’s a matter of marketing, though. Yes. Yeah. You know, I could put someone in front of you who will say stuff like, you know, as a dentist, I’ve had to learn complex things being under pressure. Yeah, exactly. Make people happy.

[00:35:53] Time management,

[00:35:54] You can, you know, the waste

[00:35:56] Management? Yeah.

[00:35:58] Although I can see you being the sort of very in the short time I’ve had with you, I can see you being this very sort of honest, to honest person.

[00:36:06] Maybe that’s my problem.

[00:36:07] Yeah, yeah.

[00:36:09] And you know, marketing is about first lying to yourself and then telling other people that lie

[00:36:17] Like,

[00:36:18] You mean, like, fake it until you make it kind of thing.

[00:36:21] But lying to yourself, you have to. You have to believe and in this new thing that you’re saying. And so that takes a degree of confidence. And, you know, I mean, lying is the wrong word for it. But it’s this present presenting it, presenting it to yourself in in in in a way that that makes sense to you. And then you can you can sell it to other people. Yes. But you know, again, in Dental school, we weren’t taught marketing either.

[00:36:47] So go on. No business skills, nothing but how to

[00:36:52] See what happened, what happened? Where did the flower thing come from? Had you done anything like that before or did you always want?

[00:36:58] Okay. So listen, I didn’t give up on dentistry very easily. I did. Well, first of all, with me, I didn’t give up at all. I haven’t given up yet, but no more than that. So I had another baby. I kept going. So I worked until I was pregnant. I went to work from London to Chichester on my eighth month of pregnancy every day for I love it. You know, I didn’t care. Yes, I didn’t want to leave my patients. I knew it was time for us to come back to London because things weren’t very good with my husband job. And we said, if we need opportunities, you need to be in London. So that was the reason it was a good choice for us. But that meant for four, until I got to my maternity leave, I had to travel. I think it was seven months, four days a week, sometimes

[00:37:45] Five London to

[00:37:47] Chichester, back and forth. But I loved it. It was home for me. You know, I really like that clinic. The staff was fantastic. The people at the CEO and stuff, amazing. I liked it. It worked for me. I had some, some freedom to learn stuff to use some materials. You know, you can’t as an associate, you don’t really have that all the time. So when I moved to London, I said, give please give me the opportunity to work in Fulham, in the Sainsbury’s one. And they they said yes, of course gone. I went not full time because, you know, I learnt my lesson. Let’s do it a bit more part time. I had a baby at home as well. So I started with two days. Of course I loved it. I always loved teeth and see patients, and I think talking with them and making them feel a bit better. It’s something that I really, really enjoy. So I start working there and at some point I think maybe they felt they have a little bit of problems with the with the overall organisation and they will have to sell. So they they wanted to sell the practise to me and I was I was ready to buy it. We started the papers. We’re starting everything, everything, everything and then the COVID hit

[00:39:00] And my

[00:39:00] Lawyers, I had a very nice lawyers and financial advisors was telling me, Alex, I do appreciate your enthusiasm to close this deal.

[00:39:10] But if

[00:39:11] Bigger

[00:39:12] Names in the

[00:39:13] Industry don’t buy that, they don’t buy anything at this moment, I can’t let you buy. It’s just not a good move for you.

[00:39:21] Well, that was bad advice. But yeah,

[00:39:24] I don’t know. You know, listen,

[00:39:27] Because I heard they heard about the prices that some of those scientific entities went it and they were bargains bargains.

[00:39:36] Yes. But there are many things that,

[00:39:38] You know,

[00:39:40] They aren’t out there. You can. You can, you can. I can

[00:39:44] Take you in private

[00:39:48] Because I was I was I wasn’t given a bargain deal. Yeah. I wasn’t I was I was given like a real deal, like call all your friends and family and borrow money to make this happen, and I was ready to make it happen. I almost did, but then I didn’t. So later on, they went into administration. I think that’s not a secret anymore, right out there.

[00:40:10] I guess it was after they went in administration that the bargains started happening.

[00:40:14] Exactly. Yeah. And I didn’t have a seat at that table, a death round table. There wasn’t a chair for me, so I didn’t. I didn’t get. But they understand. I mean, again, punched in the face takes some distance. You’re fine. And you know, everything stopped because COVID happened, so we couldn’t work anyway. Lockdown full time. I moved my mother in law. Bless her heart from France here to stay with my kids while I was taking over the clinic. I moved in freaking Chelsea. That is so expensive from Greenwich, so to be close to the clinic. So I I was motors on, you know, everything was on. Then everything

[00:40:55] Stopped backwards.

[00:40:57] Pay the lawyers, pay the financial advisers paid the family and friends back and stuff like that. And what do you do now? And I said, You know, my goodness, I’m sick of it, that I need something else, at least at least for for some time.

[00:41:10] And was in lockdown an opportunity to think?

[00:41:12] Yes, exactly.

[00:41:14] And were you in Chelsea at that point? I was.

[00:41:17] I was in Chelsea in a flat marina point in a flat

[00:41:21] Looking fantastic

[00:41:23] Flat. I mean, so expensive.

[00:41:25] I live in Fulham myself.

[00:41:27] Oh, I know, you know, I mean, yes,

[00:41:30] I’ve been to that

[00:41:31] Practise many times.

[00:41:32] Yes, it’s beautiful. I mean, I’m

[00:41:35] In North London now. So it’s like, whereabout in in W2, whether

[00:41:42] It was in your Hampstead. Oh, I yes. Yes, yes, it’s very near.

[00:41:46] I’m not in there. Yes, people don’t think I live in Hampstead. It’s not. It’s just like for you to know where is on the map

[00:41:54] Because I was

[00:41:54] In that one before I was, I was in Primrose Hill before.

[00:41:58] Oh, OK, so that’s that’s quite close to us. Ok, perfect. Perfect. Yes, so it’s a beautiful area, but you know, I turned my life upside down. My life gets my mother in law, kids, everybody likes to because they wanted to buy that clinic. It didn’t work out. Fine, move on. I was always very creative in my life. I do stuff every single day. I always tell my husband I need to do things with my hands. If something doesn’t come up from my

[00:42:24] Hands every day,

[00:42:26] Something is not right with me and I always like flowers and I always do nice arrangements, you know, for various and I said, Just go study them when you staying home anyway, just do something. So I went and did a florist design course with Judith Blacklock in Knightsbridge. I think it is, and I loved it. It was fantastic and I said, Well, maybe I can do something with it, you know? And slowly, slowly I started to understand the business and to see if I can do it. I don’t know yet, you know, if if I can do it, but I’m just doing it and we’ll see what happens. That kind of person is very,

[00:43:07] Very talented at it.

[00:43:08] I mean, I can’t I can’t just wait for having everything perfectly aligned for me to do something. So I just need to do something, you know?

[00:43:17] But I looked at your page and I’ve got some history in flower. My my mother did some flower arranging for a while, so I know it’s it’s much more involved subject than people realise.

[00:43:26] Oh, no,

[00:43:27] But your page is called flower sorry and

[00:43:30] Consultant

[00:43:31] Alex and Flower Land on Instagram. Everyone should go and have a look at that page because some of the work on this is really stunning. I mean, it’s I think as much as I’m telling you, don’t leave dentistry, I love what you’ve done on that in that area.

[00:43:44] Thank you.

[00:43:44] Thank you very much. I definitely found something there. You’ve definitely got some inspiration there. So as a business, as a as a job, I mean, it’s weird because

[00:43:53] There’s one thing you could the

[00:43:54] Job of being the person who puts the thing together. That’s one thing. But running a whole business around that is a whole other thing.

[00:44:02] Yes.

[00:44:03] So how far are you in that out?

[00:44:05] Are you just the person fixing the flower? Like doing the design?

[00:44:08] So I’m the person fixing the flowers. My husband is the person delivering the flowers because he knows how to drive. So he works. He works, he works from home now. He might travel soon. Like with his job, he works for Amazon, but he’s the my delivery guy. You know, I.

[00:44:23] So it is a business that is a business. It is not working for someone.

[00:44:26] It’s a no, no, no, no, no, it’s my business. I just need to to put more time and money in it just to to to grow it a little bit.

[00:44:37] So how are you getting customers from from that page,

[00:44:40] From that page, word of mouth, word of mouth? And they have some really nice neighbours around here that you know, Oh, I forgot this my my wife’s birthday. Can you bring me some flowers like and they.

[00:44:53] Yeah, and it’s very

[00:44:56] Nice, you know, it’s amazing, it’s tough, but it’s nice. So when I applied for the role at the Dorchester Hotel, I was really impressed that they called me for an interview, actually, because I have no experience in the proper floristry field. I just did some, I did some, some courses and I worked on my portfolio. Basically, I wanted them to see that I do stuff and it’s all my stuff, everything. It’s on Instagram. It’s my stuff. And it was fantastic. I mean, for me, it was like, Whoa, I can actually do something else and people do listen to me. But it’s it’s such a big shock when people ask me what I want. Why do you want to leave the industry? You know, because I mean, as you said, problem a bit too honest. Yeah, I can’t be either. I mean, I can’t fake anything, really. So, you know, I said, Well, I’m not really living like forever because I will always stay registered just in case, you know, something happens and I need to go back to it. But I would like to explore this part of me as well. And why not have something on the side? Because later on in my life as a dentist, I was educated at Listen, don’t put all the eggs in the basket. I don’t have the power to go on the estate and bitcoin and stuff like that, like all the wise people do, because I know zero about that stuff.

[00:46:18] But I said, I know

[00:46:19] Flowers now, so why not explore this part? So they took me on. It was fantastic. I did three months with them just because now I feel like I want to concentrate more on other things I saw behind the doors, you know, of a business of a luxury business, VIP clients, how to deal with them and stuff like that. It was a very enlightened experience for me.

[00:46:42] But also what you might find is that one day you open some very high end Dental clinic and the the the reason why it’s so high end is because you on the flower side, you you figured out some new skills around, you know, high end clients and making things beautiful and service. And you might it might end up that way. But I remember telling my parents I was going to stop being a dentist and they nearly had a heart attack. I mean, my my mom was particularly sad. I mean, almost like I was,

[00:47:16] I was sort of, you know, all the

[00:47:18] Work she’d put

[00:47:19] In. It’s almost been like a failure.

[00:47:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then there was I had this and I understood it and I and I was worried about it. And I always thought, Oh, I better just keep on doing. One day a week here, or two days a week, that still still continued. Being a dentist and then I had this sort of moment of clarity about, you know, it was actually my co-host was not here today, Prav, he said to me, Look, if you’re going to do this teeth whitening thing, you’ve got to really commit to it psychologically. And an I can’t see you committing to it psychologically until you stop being a dentist. And and he was a doctor himself, a top doctor. He was top of his class in Oxford, but he stopped doing that and he’s now doing marketing for dentists. And so because I trust him, I suddenly thought I had this moment of clarity that wait a minute if it all falls apart. Just go back and be a dentist.

[00:48:14] Yeah.

[00:48:14] And as a dentist, I can put food on the table for my family, even as a, you know, associate, you can do OK as an associate, right? You can, you can. You can do very well as an associate, by the way. So that’s something gave me the confidence to say, well, what is going to really just go for it? Yeah. Of course I’m

[00:48:32] Still in dentistry. As you can

[00:48:34] See, I’m

[00:48:36] Quite left dentistry now. I tell you what I’m very interested in. I gave up dentistry for five years. Then I went back and like you said, I really appreciated dentistry when I went back to it. Yes. And there was something about, you know, in outside, in this job, you know, selling stuff to dentists is a lot harder than selling stuff to patients. You know it by its very nature that the patients sitting in your chair. It’s already saying, I trust you. You know, whereas dentists, you know, we’re trained to say, Hey, why? How, you know, just be sceptical about.

[00:49:13] Yes. Like, make me buy it. You know, the prove it to prove it.

[00:49:17] Yes. Where are the papers? Yeah. Where are the

[00:49:19] Papers?

[00:49:20] And so just the more difficult I found it more difficult anyway. Right now, I don’t. But back then, back then I definitely found it more difficult. So then when I went back to being a dentist again, the relationships, meeting people, the number of people you meet as a dentist,

[00:49:37] You know, 10 or

[00:49:38] 12 or 15 people a day you meet. Yeah, when you’re in it, you’re like, God, I wish there were less of them here. But when you when you’re out of it, when I’m in my office, the same 40 people, by the way, we’re all working from home now. So I don’t see those people even know. I don’t have the same sort of influence, the same influences coming into me. Yes. And then from the work perspective, when I went back, I sort of was just sticking to the bits of it that I really liked. You know, I didn’t do any endo didn’t do any kids. No, no full mouth stuff. You know, I was basically preaching and bonding. So I’d like to hear your your reflections when, you know, does it make dentistry more attractive once you left a little bit?

[00:50:25] I wasn’t I.

[00:50:26] I was the kind of general dentist. I have a very active conscience, so if I know I can’t handle 100 percent a procedure, I won’t offer it myself. Yeah. So the way I work as a dentist and I’m very serious about this was multidisciplinary with Centre for Dentistry offered me that I had a fantastic indoor guy, a fantastic pathologist and the surgeon, of course. So I basically I was like this dentist that was orchestrating all the treatments. Yes. Discussing with the patient because my appointments were generous enough to offer the patients all kinds of information they needed. So they will go and see Dental guy and see what he can do and then see the pathologist and then decide what’s the best approach for him financially and not just financially to do the treatment. And because I did this kind and it’s not a defence defensive, I think it’s called yes, dentistry, it’s what I think it’s fair to offer to my patients. Yeah, the Pennsylvania. Yeah, in Romania, we have a you can be a specialist in cardiology, and I think kings are doing something now like a master.

[00:51:46] She’s doing it. Yeah.

[00:51:47] Yes. So I might look into that. But in Romania, I was always fascinated about these professors that was teaching us how

[00:51:55] To deal with with the

[00:51:57] Dental decay, which was the number one disease at that time in the world, affecting so many people. And I said this, and I’m happy to do that. I’m comfortable

[00:52:06] In this, in this seat

[00:52:07] Where I am. And I was always telling my patients, do I know how to do an end or treatment? I do. Do I do it better than a specialist? Never do. I want you to have the best treatment I do. So if you want and if you trust me, you need to go and see a specialist for this treatment. So we’re friends until the end of the treatment and afterwards.

[00:52:28] And it was working

[00:52:30] Fantastic and this is how I work now. Every time I see a patient with a very difficult case, but I always bring all the team in. So I send them everywhere and they send them back to me and said, OK, now we can do this and now we can take the. And I love it. I think this is beautiful. And just like you, I enjoy what I’m doing. So I didn’t change anything. What I did before because I was scared or is just is the bad memories that are keep coming back to me. But when I’m with the patient, I don’t know if you have this. I always tell my husband, like when I’m thinking about something I need to do, I always find it difficult in actually doing it. Yeah, I don’t know if I’m funny or other people. That’s true. But when I’m in the clinic, that’s it, I’m I’m like someone else, you know? I know exactly what I need to do. I never let my patients, you know, Oh my gosh, she’s not very confident on that kind of, even if I’m not confident in what I specifically tell them like about the diagnostic and I, I always talk with them like, Listen, I know what I’m saying, and then I send them to other people to to take them out and stuff because I think that’s very important. So I don’t have a problem with that. But I think probably I

[00:53:44] Was working a bit

[00:53:46] Too much and I was always afraid that I would do a mistake, you know? Of course I did mistakes. I mean, yes, I did. I mean, at some point there was I was working without. I was polishing feeling on a patient and I touched the sublingual mucosa. And it just, you know, it opens up like beautifully, like a big mouth. I said,

[00:54:08] Ok.

[00:54:09] And I said to the patient, I was very calm. I had the brilliant nurse and I said, Can I have some stitches, please? And I just ditch it out. And I talked to the patient. I said, This is what happened. It can happen. I’m sorry for it. Next time, I will be more careful. Put it in the notes and everything was fine. She was very happy. She never even thought because she was still numb, you know? But you need, you know, do you take out the rubber? Damn, you want to do your fantastic polishing and stuff? And that happened. Whatever. So I do mistakes. I do mistakes. But having always a team in the support system at home with the clinic anywhere I am, that helps me the best because I don’t think we can do anything by ourselves, really. So that’s why that’s why I went on Facebook and wrote that post. Because I want people, because I’m I’m I’m very lucky to have people to talk with. I’m very I’m very grateful for you to take time to talk with me right now. But somewhere, somewhere in the house in a flat, there’s a dentist dealing with so much trouble. There’s nothing to talk with. And he said, or she says, Well, who I am to, to ask Payman to talk with me or Alex or whoever that is. You know,

[00:55:19] You make a brilliant point. You make it pretty important. I mean, I’d say the number one learning from all of this is talk to someone. Yes. And by the way, if you don’t feel like you know anyone these days, at least we have things like coffee Dental. I don’t know if you’ve heard of that.

[00:55:34] That’s that’s the thing I never heard of.

[00:55:36] That dentist can call up and talk to another dentist, and you know,

[00:55:40] It’s brilliant

[00:55:40] Going. If they’re going through something we know in our in our profession, it can get stressful beyond stressful, stressful to the point that people do the worst things, you know, and it’s something that we need to always look out for. And you had your husband and you talk to people, but you know, I just talking to you. I just think it would be a real shame if you if you don’t practise dentistry. I think, like I say, I think we need more dentists like you. People who are enthusiastic want to do the best for the patient. And I think so. In your case, you should wait until you kind of get over that,

[00:56:16] That trauma that you have. Yes, I’m I’m much better now.

[00:56:21] Keep going. Like, like, I gave up dentistry by mistake, not on purpose.

[00:56:25] You know

[00:56:26] How damp it’s like, how do I still work,

[00:56:31] Dentist? I adore being dentists a lot,

[00:56:35] By the way,

[00:56:36] Now that I’m not a dentist, there are some things that are much better about not being a dentist. Things like that. I don’t want to turn up, you know? Yeah. Turning up is a real pain for me. Like I like to some nights like tonight, I might decide to stay up till three a.m.. Yeah, if I had an eight o’clock patient tomorrow morning, that would be impossible. But but where I am at right now, I could do fine.

[00:56:59] We can talk until tomorrow.

[00:57:03] But what I’m saying is I definitely wasn’t one of those guys who hated dentistry and had to find something else to do and found this. And then I left it. That wasn’t my situation. My situation was this. This opportunity came along. It suddenly became so busy that there was no way of being a dentist. So, so, you know, I had to pull out of it.

[00:57:21] I never hated dentistry.

[00:57:23] You know, you love it.

[00:57:24] You love it more than I loved it.

[00:57:26] I will never be able in my life to hate dentistry you love. I will never be able to do that. I love dentistry, and I think it’s it’s other dentists probably have. This too is not that you hate it or you don’t want to do it. Is that that concern that you might hurt someone, you know? Yeah. And you don’t want that because you care too much.

[00:57:49] You know, I special

[00:57:51] Person I like, I like, I like where you’re coming from. I like, you’re very special person to be.

[00:57:55] I think I think you think, you know, I’m not sure if it works like in my

[00:58:00] Advance, but I’m just

[00:58:02] I’m just saying like probably my fear was coming from what? What if I really make a mistake and I hurt someone

[00:58:10] That’s a medical.

[00:58:10] That’s a medical thing anyway, right? Fear of messing up, I mean, I used to have that fear when I did my oral surgery job and I really wasn’t qualified enough for the job, but they throw you in and suddenly you’re in A&E stitching up someone’s face for the first time in your life. And, you know, like, that’s a child or whatever, and you’re stitching it up, you know? Yeah, but but medicine is that way inclined. You know, we learn by

[00:58:34] Doing a lot of times,

[00:58:36] You know, that’s what it is. You love dentistry. You love dentistry. So obvious. You love dentistry.

[00:58:42] Yeah. I wasn’t expecting.

[00:58:44] I wasn’t expecting this conversation at all. I was expecting to say, I hate it.

[00:58:48] No hate is not a word in my vocabulary. I don’t think I hate anything. It hate is a very strong word for me. It needs to be like, maybe I don’t like guns. They might say, I hate guns, but the way maybe we use it, because guns doesn’t have to be all negative, you can still have some fun with them. You don’t have to point them another person. You know, it’s the way you use what you have, and I will never be able to hate dentistry. But what I what’s the point I really want to make and to stress out is

[00:59:21] That I really

[00:59:23] Need I mean, I was fantasising when I was dealing with this complaint. Having like because I wasn’t like, you know, new to Dental is being sued and stuff. In your case, I wasn’t like a snowflake that doesn’t know that I was aware of that. However, I didn’t see any movement towards changing that in the profession, and I apologise if there’s something happening that I’m not aware of. Moving into that direction, I really apologise for that if I’m not educated enough. But I didn’t feel like if I would speak up at that moment because I was frustrated and I didn’t want that to happen to me. You know, it was my very first job and nobody freaking told me that I need to be careful of that. I was so upset, you know, and I feel like, OK, if I go and speak out, they will back up. But I didn’t feel like it, you know, because I was reading like for dentist by dentist and all these groups that are fantastic.

[01:00:22] It wasn’t.

[01:00:23] It was never a follow up. You know, you hear like, complain, complain, complain. But what happened? I mean, how did you deal with like in a really good movie and the power cuts out, you know, and you’re like, come on.

[01:00:35] Like, what happened, you know,

[01:00:37] To to give me the confidence to give me the confidence,

[01:00:41] You know, to

[01:00:41] Come, OK, listen, people, this happened. Like, What do I do? Do you have that kind of attitude towards it? And I think this is this is what I did know how to do it, but hopefully I will be able to do it at some point to to raise some awareness. Yes, if you want to leave the profession

[01:00:58] Because you don’t like

[01:01:00] It, fine, just do it. But again, awareness that is tough is tough to go and start from the bottom. In any other profession, it’s tough to take that pay cut. It’s tough because it it will affect your family. If you have one it, it will affect you if you have one. Because if you if you’re used to a big income, if their realities and I feel like sometimes we tend to make everything like to sugar coat like Willy Wonka, you know, we don’t get to do really discussions and conversations from the heart like, what do you really feel without,

[01:01:34] You know,

[01:01:34] Without being judgemental and stuff?

[01:01:38] So this is this is what I

[01:01:40] Would like at some point. I mean, you’re much more experienced in denial. I mean, podcast and stuff like this, you know, like, I mean, if you would see everybody, if you see my on my tablet is sitting now, you will like, laugh out loud like it’s ridiculous. So obviously you have the gear and you have everything you need to make this happen. But I feel like there’s a there’s a need for this kind of this conversation. More Dental. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And even publicly, because sometimes I mean, I had patients, I was telling them, you know, I might leave patients that are closer to me, like, but why? I mean, you’re so good. You don’t seem like you’re stressed. Like, Well, of course I’m not. I don’t want to show you that because you wouldn’t

[01:02:21] Open your mouth. No, I come on. I don’t want to waste my time.

[01:02:25] But still, it’s a stressful job. And you know what? I think most of the people complaining about dentists have no idea what this profession is like.

[01:02:36] Alex isn’t flower arranging a stressful job?

[01:02:39] Oh, it’s very stressful. I mean, mess up a bride’s bouquet at that time.

[01:02:45] We go back to messing up weddings.

[01:02:47] But yeah, exactly.

[01:02:48] But different because it’s something that you can easily replace. But if you affect the person in in an appearance and we work with mouth, we work with teeth between your heart and your brain and it’s in their in their face. It’s so much personal, you know, it’s you can’t hide from it, you know? I mean, you need to have a vocation. You need. It needs to be your vocation to be a dentist. So I think, like you said, maybe you think I’m a brilliant dentist? I might be, but

[01:03:20] There are so thousands

[01:03:22] Of them out there saying like, but I’m not good enough, especially if they have complaints that went on and on and did involving and stuff like that. I think we need something to support these people, you know,

[01:03:34] To to

[01:03:34] People for these people to understand. Listen, you’re not alone. It’s messy. It’s ugly, but you are not alone. And look, this is a system to help you deal with

[01:03:45] It and stuff

[01:03:46] Like that.

[01:03:47] I think the thing about making mistakes here is that, look, I’m not the best dentist. You’re not the best dentist, right? Yeah. Then there’s the guy who’s better than me and you. Yeah, I don’t know. Tiff Qureshi, whatever the famous dentist. Yeah. Then there’s a limit to his

[01:04:03] Understanding here,

[01:04:04] So he could do something that the guy above him would say was a mistake. Yes. Yeah. Basil Mizrahi. These must be the top dentists in the UK. Yeah, yeah. But there’s a guy in Switzerland somewhere better than Basil was right? And he’ll say what he’s doing is wrong. And this this notion of making a mistake. Yeah, there’s one type of mistake which is like, OK, your drill drops and and hits one of those sort of incidents, which is, you know, that’s irrelevant type of incident, right? There’s another type of mistake, which is a decision making mistake. You know, you decided to go down this plan and it was the wrong thing decision to make, which I say a more serious kind of mistake. But nonetheless, I’m at my level. You’re at your level and it goes on and on and every single person has a dentist better than them, you know? So it’s just the reality of of life.

[01:04:58] And then the main mistake?

[01:05:00] Yeah, it’s like a patient management mistake. Yeah, where the patient lose this trust and it’s been shown a million times know the patients who sue are the ones who don’t like their doctor. You can make massive mistakes on people. If your patient likes you, he’s not going to sue you, for instance. Yeah, yes. Well, any sort of management mistake.

[01:05:24] The problem is

[01:05:25] When when it goes to a complaint, it starts to question, I can see someone like you like. You’re not your typical kind of, you know, trying to buy your

[01:05:32] Ferrari dentist

[01:05:34] Here. Someone like, you know, who’s giving, you know, who wants to be someone who contributes, who wants to be someone who, you know, you said fairness is your number one thing when a patient comes with a problem. Most dentists think, Well, that problem is worth to me

[01:05:47] £2000 or twenty three

[01:05:49] Thousand pounds. You’re thinking, who’s the best person for the endo? The best person for the Crown’s the best person and just orchestrating that that whole thing?

[01:05:58] Yes.

[01:06:00] So you know, what I’m saying is most, most times people, people like you shouldn’t be leaving our profession. What should it be leaving our profession? Should I be leaving our profession? I keep coming back to that. Yeah. But but you know, a management mistake can can do that. We shouldn’t, shouldn’t focus on mistakes, you know, although by the way, this podcast does, this podcast has that question. What was your biggest mistake? But I guess you’ve answered that for me. Let’s let’s move on. Let’s move on because I’m very interested in everything that you said there. Do you now feel more confident as

[01:06:38] A human now that you’ve learnt

[01:06:40] A second skill? Or do you see it like a hobby?

[01:06:47] I think like another passion of mine. I don’t see it like a hobby. It’s more than a hobby because it’s like it’s other things involved in it. You know, you need to to. I mean, I guess you put money in hobbies as well. I don’t usually do that unless it’s like, I

[01:07:02] Don’t know, going to a good music

[01:07:03] Or something, which I think it’s something I enjoy as a hobby, you know? But I think it’s more than that. I don’t know if learning a new skill made me confident,

[01:07:15] But the new

[01:07:17] Skill took the attention away from the initial skill, which helped me cleared my mind. So when I went back to it, I said, Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute. Wait a minute, everybody. I’m actually a good dentist. And when I went back in the practise and my good friend, I work in a clinic in Watford. Now it’s a it’s a it’s a it’s a very nice clinic, quite new one. And I saw that OK. And the patients are it’s like for me, they’re all the same. I never think like these patients like that. These patients like that when someone comes in, I just I’m the same with everyone, you know? And I think that whenever the fog goes

[01:07:55] Away and you go back

[01:07:56] With, you know, a new fresh, it’s like coming back from the holy day. It’s everything changes. Yeah. So I think it’s very important to have something else. People are running. I don’t run. People are going to the gym. I don’t do that. I do I’d like to do yoga and stuff to relax myself, you know, but that didn’t help me mentally to maybe I’m not, I’m not doing it right, you know, mentally didn’t

[01:08:22] Help my heels. I needed help. You not breathing, right? Yes, I wasn’t breathing right. I wasn’t sucking

[01:08:29] My tummy or something like that, but focussing, OK, I need to do that to get better. I need to learn about flowers. I need to. When I went back to dentistry, it was, Oh, I know so many things about this and I’m so good at it. You know, back

[01:08:44] In your comfort zone again, wasn’t it?

[01:08:46] Yeah, it’s like a comfort zone, but not just dad, but you want to improve it, you know when you’re enjoying it more? Yeah. So I think the best advice that I got was like, Don’t do it full time because you’re going to get burnout, especially when you’re when you’re just entering it. You know, you want to do everything. You want to please everyone. You don’t want to say no to no patients and stuff like that. But now I do it and enjoy it at the same time, you know, I never, ever and never in my life. I hope I won’t ever think, Oh, OK, this patient has this problem. So that means two pounds and stuff. I’m not built that way. Probably that’s why maybe I’m not a good business person and stuff, but I can’t, especially when it comes with someone that is in pain, that heaven has teeth that can’t smile properly. It hurts my heart that my goodness, I have everything. I need to fix it and I can’t because they can’t pay it. You know, it’s ridiculous that I find ridiculous.

[01:09:44] So I can’t

[01:09:45] I can’t think about patients like money providers for me. Of course, I’m not a pretty naive, you know, to see like, OK, I’ll do it because it’s not my clinic. I can’t do that. And if I would do that, it’s not OK. Even if it’s my clinic, you know, because you still have some, some responsibilities towards your family and to yourself, right? And it’s not just right to to give people something just like that. We all do charity stuff because, you know, it’s in our human nature to do it, but it’s impossible to do it all the time. So I will never think about dentistry like, Oh, I can make so much money, I can buy a Ferrari or stuff. I don’t even try, so I don’t need it. But I want to help people and I want to help dentists. And I just wanted to talk with people, you know, to make them understand this is not the end of the world. And even if it is, it’s fine. It’s, you know, I have a really favourite thing like if I reached the bottom, it’s the best place you can be because it’s just like in a particular way. You just put you just, you know, go towards the surface with like more speed than ever. It takes more to think. But when you get, you just go out there and it’s not going to happen overnight and stuff. But it’s going to happen eventually

[01:11:03] To some advice to someone who’s now looking at going out of their comfort zone into another profession or another area, and it’s lost for confidence.

[01:11:18] I think they should try it. We always think like, Oh, I can’t

[01:11:23] Do it, I can’t

[01:11:25] Do it, I can’t do any, I can’t do that, I can’t do that. You can do it if you want to do it or if you really, really want to do it because I I don’t miss doing an end or treatment. I don’t even want to hear about it. You know, I’m happy when the patients come back and it’s done and dealt with, and it’s beautiful and you know, it’s microscope and stuff. Fantastic. I mean, I can talk about it with the patient. It’s like, Whoa, my gosh, this is the best treatment ever, you know? But if you want to do something and you don’t have confidence, just do it. And you see, because this friend of mine, Alex, is really good, I don’t know how she put it, but she said it’s not even confidence. It’s all the layers underneath, right? It’s like to educate yourself is to push yourself. Because if you ask, Oh, please, I want to have like more confidence, OK, how do we get confidence? Will you put yourself in uncomfortable situations? And if you get that, OK, I did this and then I did that, and then I did that. You get more confidence. Well, maybe the fourth thing you’re going to do is not going to seem as hard as the first three ones.

[01:12:30] And I mean, going for your first flower job? Hmm. Did it feel the same as going for your first Dental job and sort of know not knowing?

[01:12:40] Absolutely not, no. How did

[01:12:42] It feel?

[01:12:43] No, it feels. It feels nice. You know, it’s I don’t like this word nice because it’s so vast. I mean, I don’t know what knife is. It feels it feels good when you complete a work. I mean, I did a waiting for a friend and she was very happy. It was very you take that. It’s very rewarding, you know? But what what dentistry gives me is amazing because you have all these yet like you spreading yourself, you know, to all these people that and if you help them and most of the time you do, some of them are very grateful. Some of them are grateful, but they don’t show it. Some of them are grateful and don’t want to show it. It’s still happening and it’s still coming back to you in in a way or another.

[01:13:27] So I think I always tell

[01:13:29] My husband because every time in December, you know, since everything is like, Do I keep on the register? Or I don’t? I always stay on the register, you know, but it’s always that question. And I think I read about other people having that dilemma, too every December. But I always stay on because, you know what? I always want to be able to go back to it.

[01:13:54] I stopped 10 years ago, and I’m still on the register. Good for you. I even paid my my indemnity for like maybe 15 years after I was like, Wow, it was weird. I was like, OK, just in case.

[01:14:07] Kind of just in case.

[01:14:08] Yes, yes. But then it turned out I didn’t need to. So I wasted a bunch of money there. Yeah. All right. I think we’re coming to the end of our time, but we always end these podcasts with the same two questions. Yeah. The first one is. You’re on your deathbed. You’re surrounded by your kids, which I should have asked about your kids, but you’re

[01:14:37] Fine, you’re

[01:14:38] Surrounded by your kids, your loved ones, your parents, whatever you loved people, people that you love most in the world. What are three bits of advice you would give them? And the world

[01:14:48] Does stuff I never thought about my deathbed.

[01:14:51] Ok, don’t focus on the death part. Just the three bits of advice.

[01:14:58] Two, I want them to be happy to go do stuff and like to travel. Travel not to get stuck. I have a thing I don’t get attached to, I don’t miss. I mean, I’m sorry for all the Romanians listening. I don’t miss my country because if I have my family with me, you know, my kids and my husband, my husband is my soulmate. We are together since forever 20 years, married for 10. I have my support system with me. I don’t need anything else so I can

[01:15:32] Move on and don’t get

[01:15:35] This stuff. I do know things that

[01:15:39] You know you don’t want to wait you down.

[01:15:41] Yeah, yeah. I don’t get attached to things, but I love having an impact on people. So I think invest in people and travel to meet those people that might need your help and just try to be happy and enjoy this life, you know, because it’s just I know it sounds like a cliche, but just enjoy it every single day. Try to do something new and a little bit to to push yourself, you know, to to do something new and just just enjoy the rewards. You know, that comes with anything. Just enjoy it. I think that’s really important.

[01:16:15] I love that. I love that. And the final question. Yeah. Fantasy dinner party.

[01:16:25] A fantasy dinner party

[01:16:28] For three guests. Yeah. Dead or alive.

[01:16:33] Who would you have?

[01:16:38] Yes, tough.

[01:16:40] And so he’s just me with three people that I want. Yeah.

[01:16:44] You want your husband that, you

[01:16:46] Know, just, yeah, your husband’s your husband’s around, OK? He he he’s busy.

[01:16:53] Yeah, he’s working also.

[01:16:56] I would love like I would love maybe a celebrity, but I don’t have any ideals, I’m not crazy about people.

[01:17:01] What about when you were a kid? Did you not have like an idol, Celebrity Idol?

[01:17:06] I did not. Oh, I see. That’s sad, right? No, I don’t scream when I see a band I don’t get nothing sad about. Hmm. It’s very tough for me, I don’t know.

[01:17:18] Definitely, definitely a perfectionist.

[01:17:21] No, no, no. You don’t have to give the perfect answer. Look up to people.

[01:17:25] It’s not because I don’t look up.

[01:17:26] It doesn’t have to be an idol. It could be. But you know, it could be, you know, Shakespeare, your grandmother and you know what I mean? It could be. It could be anyone.

[01:17:36] Ok. Well, I don’t want anyone in the family. They know a lot about them. I would think maybe someone with a lot of influence like someone.

[01:17:49] Like. Obama. No, no.

[01:17:55] Well, I would like. Listen, I

[01:17:58] Would like to have dinner instead of three people, maybe I would like to have dinner with. I mean, it’s a stupid answer, but please forgive me. I would like to have dinner with Kate Middleton.

[01:18:10] Sure. Why is that stupid?

[01:18:12] I don’t know. I mean, it’s a cliche, right? I mean, with all this royal drama and stuff, but I would like to have dinner with someone that has

[01:18:19] Why you want to actually find out what it’s like in the palace or whatever

[01:18:22] What it’s like, but only if she’s allowed to talk stuff with me. You know, like, she’s like, Yeah, yeah, I would definitely

[01:18:29] Like to to have

[01:18:31] Because Dorchester was the same, you know, a very interesting world for me with the luxurious VIP people and stuff like that. I want to be a fly on the

[01:18:42] Wall like in that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:18:45] Like ta ta ta. Yeah. And I think she’s quite a decent person and she’s like a nice, you know, I wouldn’t feel I mean, again, I don’t want to sound stupid. I wouldn’t feel intimidated to have a conversation with her. You know, I

[01:18:59] Think she was a regular person before she married the

[01:19:02] What’s his name? No, I think she’s she’s quite she has Royal

[01:19:07] Connexions, maybe, you know, but you know more about it than

[01:19:09] I do. But yeah, I think she seems like a normal person.

[01:19:12] Yeah, yeah. Well, she’s coming from a very rich family. So obviously the royal family, it’s better.

[01:19:19] But you know, she was used to do the good stuff.

[01:19:23] But what I always fantasise about is not like dinner or talk. It’s just I don’t even want to do to have conversation, but to be a fly on the wall like when something important happens to see.

[01:19:35] Even because I’m going, I’m going on a podcast, coming up and reactants podcast. I’m the guest. And he’s already told me that one of his questions, his final question is Where do you want to be a fly on the wall? During which? Which situation? Yes, I was thinking, You know, Cuban Missile Crisis. You know that the guy who was ordered to shoot to kill JFK, you know that guy, that moment,

[01:19:58] You haven’t worked

[01:19:59] It out yet. That sounds like boyish stuff.

[01:20:01] I would be like, it’s like. Of course.

[01:20:04] I mean, I would like to be more like, you know, like a little dramatic situations, you know, like at the palace or when something really exciting happens

[01:20:13] Like,

[01:20:14] You know, Harry’s wife, Markle. What’s or something?

[01:20:17] Meghan Markle? No, I’m not interested.

[01:20:20] No, no. When there was that little argument between Kate and Meghan, that’s the last one.

[01:20:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:20:26] So that kind of things I would like or, you know, it was always fascinating about even dentists. I’m I’m following a dentist in Boston.

[01:20:36] He’s very good,

[01:20:37] And I always look at her and I, you know, she’s with this Instagram and stuff. Everybody has a lot of stories where they share a lot of things. Oh my gosh, I’m like, I’m I’m drooling over those stories because it’s fantastic

[01:20:49] To to

[01:20:50] Be able to be there. And during COVID, even in here in UK, I had so much access to see what other people do and even people like you, you know, that had so many experiences chose to open up those doors. You know, it’s like, I don’t know, very exclusive

[01:21:08] Clubs where you don’t

[01:21:09] Get in, you don’t get it. And that’s it, you know, so being able to get, you know, get into it. Yes, I would like to.

[01:21:18] Definitely I’m not letting you off with that. You need to continue and give me two more.

[01:21:22] Two more people. Yeah. Wow.

[01:21:26] Hmm.

[01:21:28] So, Kate Middleton.

[01:21:32] Was Ceausescu’s wife called she used to?

[01:21:35] Yeah. No, you I don’t even know, but no, I mean, are you taking anything before your time? Maybe I would manage co-manage.

[01:21:50] Nadia Comaneci

[01:21:51] Yeah.

[01:21:52] Know before you type, I would get all these people before your time. But.

[01:21:58] Maybe I would go with like I would like to meet and have dinner with Celine Dion. Oh, I think, yeah, I think she was one of the artists that I was. Oh, Celine Dion, you know, I would get a bit nervous if I would

[01:22:11] If she was her. Yeah, yes.

[01:22:13] Exactly what a policy Kate Middleton, Celine

[01:22:16] Dion and I definitely need to choose a man, so we balance it out with balancing out.

[01:22:21] Well, it can be one of those sex and the city like girly parties, you know, it doesn’t have to be a man.

[01:22:26] Oh, the Parker. I never watched sex in the City

[01:22:29] And it’s like, you know, for women, whatever.

[01:22:31] Oh, I know who I want to meet and I want, you know what? I don’t want to meet Celine Dion.

[01:22:39] I changed my mind. Well, you can have me.

[01:22:41] Oh, good. I want to meet and to have a conversation with Jerry Seinfeld. I am upset a bit with Jerry Seinfeld. Did you watch the sitcom?

[01:22:52] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh my goodness.

[01:22:55] Like when me and my husband and we have a conversation like about kids, it’s always lines from Jerry Seinfeld. We can have a full day conversation only using lines in Jerry. It’s amazing. So I love that show. I would, because he’s fantastic. I think he’s very smart. He’s a very good businessman, is an extraordinary businessman. He did coffee. Comedians in cars getting coffee. Did you watch that on Netflix? No, you should. I mean, when I used to

[01:23:24] Watch kerb your enthusiasm a lot and that had something to do with Seinfeld.

[01:23:28] I didn’t watch that. Wash it.

[01:23:30] What’s it? You like it? Ok? Or maybe you. Or maybe you were. But what’s the coffee? One celebrity is having a coffee.

[01:23:37] Comedians in cars, getting coffees. Getting coffee with Jerry Seinfeld. So he chews. He choose a lot of celebrities. He they he chooses a car based on what I think their personality is, and they go and have coffee. And it’s hilarious. I mean, it’s just jokes and sarcasm and stuff, which is fantastic. So that’s it, I.

[01:24:00] Well, the good news is you can have all three because it’s three guests.

[01:24:03] Yeah, OK. But just in case someone pulls out, I’m fine. If Jerry Seinfeld

[01:24:08] Comes,

[01:24:10] We finally found your idol.

[01:24:13] Yeah, yeah.

[01:24:14] I wouldn’t say an idol, but definitely something I look I would like to meet. I don’t know if I would be able to have a conversation with him.

[01:24:23] I know you’ll be fine. You’d be fine. I could see

[01:24:25] Very

[01:24:26] Smart and he knows so many things and he’s has so much money. Oh my gosh, he’s so I think he’s the richest comedian ever.

[01:24:33] Well, you picked three very, very, very rich people.

[01:24:36] So that’s Google. Yeah.

[01:24:39] So if by any time you know in your life, if you ever get to meet Jerry Seinfeld, say hi.

[01:24:47] I mean, I’m sure you

[01:24:51] Have better chances than me. You know, funny story. When I did my shadowing in Harley Street and this dentist I worked for, she used to see Jo Martindale, which is like a it’s like a D.J.. It’s called like when you do this music for crowds and they just dance like for many, many hours on the same tune or something. And he wasn’t famous. I don’t know if he’s famous here, but on his Facebook, like he’s exploding and stuff. And I said, Listen, Joe, please, like whenever you become famous, you know, because I was, it was asking people coming on Harley Street in my naivete and people that were having conversations with me like how

[01:25:30] Famous I feel.

[01:25:31] And he was like, No, I’m not famous yet, but listen, I’m doing this music and I’m going to sonic stage and stuff in the US. And I have like a tourist. Whenever you become famous, please remember me because I was here when you had your treatment done and stuff, and I was like sucking your saliva out and stuff. And later on, he became famous. Know, sometimes occasionally I have patients that they work with, like a little bit of people, high end people, you know, and say, Listen, you might get famous because I had people that got famous before,

[01:26:02] So it remembered me, you know? Yeah, they never do. But you know, it’s funny. Yeah, he’s very funny.

[01:26:08] It’s like when when my friends are looking like their companies are about to be sold, you know, I mean, I remember me,

[01:26:17] So I’m happy. I’m not the only one.

[01:26:20] It’s not because they want their money. Just to make sure you remember me. I had something to

[01:26:24] Do with you eventually. You know, I want to

[01:26:26] Be I want to be at that party, that first party after they’ve sold their companies. I want to be.

[01:26:32] Absolutely, absolutely.

[01:26:34] But it’s been absolutely lovely having you and

[01:26:37] Thank you for having

[01:26:38] Me. Something different, actually, because normally we’re talking to dentists about their careers and how they’re going to make their careers better and all that. But I would say we’ve done, I don’t know. I think we’re on 112 episodes. I talked to a few dentists now,

[01:26:52] Maybe

[01:26:52] The one that I would say is the best. Then the one. The one, the one who. I would like to be a dentist more than anyone else. Honestly, I mean it. I mean, I’ve been interviewing something that the top dentist in the world, but it’s really beautiful, really refreshing to hear it from you the way that you said it. So thank you for taking the time and

[01:27:13] Thank you so much.

[01:27:16] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:27:32] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it if you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.