[00:00:00] And I always remember this very wealthy woman. And she said to me, Oh, I’ve been told I need a gum graft around this implant the right. And I’m like, Well, yeah, I can do it. But then I wasn’t charging a lot of money and it was going to be £400. Right. And she drives him with this very expensive car outside. And she’s busy saying to me, Oh, that’s too expensive. And I’m looking at it and and I’m not backing down. And she’s saying, Well, I said, I’d rather not do anything. And she says to me, Well, it sounds like you do it for free. And I said, No. And I said, I’m the only one in the West Midlands that can do this, and you don’t want to irritate me any further. And she was well aware of that. Never, I never seen again. But then I turned around and I said, So what’s your son do? And she goes, Oh, he’s a lawyer. I said, Oh, that’s really good. Yeah. And I said, So what would you feel if your son had to reduce his fees? She said, Nothing, you know, and that was it. But I think you have to have that confidence to tell people, fuck off.

[00:00:57] Yeah, no.

[00:01:04] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:01:22] It gives me great pleasure to introduce Dr. Ahmed Patel, Specialist Periodontist from Birmingham Practise Owner, Teacher, Current President of the ADC. And if you still don’t know who he is when you see him out on social media, he is definitely wearing the brightest outfits that you can possibly see. I mean, we’re on we’re on a podcast now and he’s wearing a bright turquoise zip up hoodie. Filler. Filler. Got to get the brand in, mate.

[00:01:53] And be honest. Right. Because when I was a kid, you’d see all these kids wearing these filler tops and Sergio to TV. And then, you know, it was like, oh, I’d like one of those. But you know what? Can’t afford it.

[00:02:07] I couldn’t afford it, mate.

[00:02:09] Oh, exactly. So now I’m like, you know, and my mum and dad just to take me down to Wembley Market and you’d be like, I’m still not going to ask for it because it was, you know, obviously it was a it was a dodgy, dodgy one and that’s fine. But it was still expensive. But now it’s like I’ve got a little bit of money. I’m going to invest.

[00:02:23] Treat yourself, but treat yourself. You know, I remember those days growing up, me and we used to go to the markets to get our clothes and all my mates had nycc and we had, we had Nick’s.

[00:02:35] Yeah.

[00:02:36] And I and I see I don’t even know if anyone knows that brand. Right. But that was the alternative, right? And we had that and we got the piss ripped out of us for that. Right. And because we didn’t have much growing up. But, but, you know.

[00:02:50] It was amazing like so like back so because I am 50 this year and you know, my mates, they were from divorced families and stuff and then they’d be going out at the age of 15, 16 and they’d be buying these really expensive T-shirts like C two set and, and, and shoving you on and all this. And it’s like you’re paying 70, 80 quid for a t shirt. And I’m like, Whoa. But then in the late eighties, and there’s like a huge amount of cash, you.

[00:03:19] Know, I don’t even do that now. Not going to do that now. But just going back to that, I mean, I think everyone would recognise you as that guy who even turns up to formal events, right? Wearing your suit and your bright orange dreads, you know, and the long hair, right?

[00:03:34] Yeah. I’m very out of luck. Exactly.

[00:03:37] Now I’m very jealous, mate. I’m very, very jealous. But just tell us about your back story. You know, where you were born, where you grew up, and your upbringing.

[00:03:47] So I was born in the UK and my dad is a civil engineer and he worked in the UK for companies and all that sort of stuff. So and my mum was sort of, I think she used to be a schoolteacher when we were in the past, but then became a housewife type of thing. Sure. And yeah. So we were born in we lived in north west London in Edgware. And actually I’ve got I would say I was very fortunate to be living there because it was really, you know, a nice kind of suburb of of London, really. And we had I had Japanese friends, I had Italian friends. I had friends that were from Ghana and all this sort of stuff. It was really, really good. And yeah, so it was, it was, it was fun, but we were all just went to normal state school and just, you know, and we were latch door kids because my parents both went to work. So we’d had the keys to get into the house and we’d sit at home and you’d watch school. I came home and it is amazing when you think about it, you know, because you had to make your own food and stuff and you just at home watch TV. So yeah, it was and you know, and it was also good because you’d go and hang out with your mates on the streets and stuff and everything and your neighbours knew it was good. Yeah.

[00:05:03] I remember those days, mate, that we would probably less so during the week, but on the weekends me and my brother would just nip out on our skateboards and BMX and then just disappear. Me and our parents wouldn’t know where the heck we were, right? We were just talking about.

[00:05:21] They weren’t fussed.

[00:05:23] But then they didn’t care me and we’d, you know, we’d go and play whatever in some hills, make some dens and go and cause a bit of trouble and then come back in the evening for our tea. Right. And the thing is that there was no issues around security where now, mate, my little six year old. Yeah. If I’m in like some kind of a theme park or summat and I let go of a hand for 10 minutes and I can’t see her. Yeah, I’m having palpitations, mate.

[00:05:49] Yeah, I mean, this is it. It’s things have changed and but you know, I think maybe we live in a society where also other adults don’t want to look like they’re checking up on a child or whatever it is, whereas before it was, you know, there’s a much more community based feeling, wasn’t it? I mean, if you think about it, you know, lockdown, what was amazing about lockdown was, you know, we all started to become much more community based. But that’s. Stopped again, right? Yeah. Yeah. One thing I did, one of the negatives about lockdown was because I have my practise in the city centre and I used to go in and just, just just just do some whatever, just to have some continuity.

[00:06:29] Bit of admin or.

[00:06:31] Something that wasn’t important but just what it. But what was interesting is because there’s loads of apartments where I work my practises and you just it was dead and you saw that these people were not mixing with their neighbours, you know, and that was the opportunity that just sat in their flats and didn’t open the doors. So. So I think, you know, it’s a shame. But, but when you go to other countries abroad, you know, you know, there’s that community still there, isn’t it? Like Italy, Spain, even though they live in apartments and the generation who’ve lived in apartments there is this family, you know.

[00:07:03] Going back and just customer mind back to those days. I don’t know if you experienced this, but you could literally walk straight into your mate’s front door, knocking it slightly open. You go straight in, say hello to the parents, you know, is Johnny coming out to play or whatever? And then off you’d go and you’d be in and out of each other’s houses. Yeah. Locks went on, doors were open. I remember those days. And now we’re so security conscious.

[00:07:27] Yeah, and I think it is. I mean, I was. It was interesting what you just said, right? Because I know we’re both like old farts, but back then, you only had the news on twice, right? Yeah. And it was. And before then there was no breakfast TV. Right? So there was the news at 6:00 and then the news at 9:00 and that was it. Right. So you only had 30 minutes of news, so you weren’t ever terrified of any stupid stuff. So as soon as 24 hour news came along, they had to put something on it. And obviously the Americans have driven this so they would turn around and just there’s a there’s a squirrel that’s escaped and it’s killing all humans, you know, but it had to be some useless news. And this is what’s happened. So people have become fearful of their own shadow.

[00:08:16] And the one thing that we definitely didn’t have back then was social media, right?

[00:08:21] Yeah, I, I am not a fan. I mean, it is really useful. I joined Facebook, maybe, I don’t know, eight years ago or something like that. And it was really for me, I didn’t have a clue what it was about, but obviously I’d heard about it back in 2006 because people were talking about it then. I had no interest then. But when you started finding out dentists using it, right? Okay, I’ll join it and friend and all this stuff because I didn’t really know many people and then it obviously escalated. But one of the good things about for me, for Facebook was that I could learn to with a really good clinicians around the world and in the UK. Right. And then you’d build relationships with them because you can contact them. And that was really good and you’d ask them advice and stuff. The bad things of Facebook is for me, you know, you might want to share your work and suddenly somebody comes out of the woodwork and they, they give it a large and they just want to destroy you and stuff.

[00:09:22] You and tear you a new one for whatever minuscule reason or their own ego.

[00:09:27] Right, exactly. And and it was really interesting because I was thinking, well, hang on, this person is asking for help. But and maybe, you know, they may not be fully aware how good or, you know, average their work is or whatever. But but there is a way of doing it, isn’t it? You know, and I think that and it’s really easy to sort of hit sit behind behind a screen and do this. I mean, now I can see your face and I could you know, I’m not going to say anything bad about you. I mean, we’re friends, but but I could if I didn’t know you, I could rip you apart. But if I’m watching your emotions, then I would change the way I’m seeing that. Does that make sense, mate?

[00:10:06] It make it makes complete sense. And, you know, I speak to a lot of dentists and my own experience of social media. Right, is that there are these people called they’re given the title of keyboard warriors these days. Right. But, you know, that person wouldn’t come to come up to you in a conference and say, by the way, do you know the case you posted the other day? That was dog shit, mate. And I’d do this, that and the other. Right. But they’ll do it on social media, right? And so it allows them to act and behave in a certain way that they wouldn’t do normally. And my take on it is it just pulls you away from real life, right?

[00:10:40] Where you, you know, because we all have we’re all social creatures. So what is it that makes you think that you have a right to do this? Because the reality is you say that to my face, they will be a massive issue. Right. Because I know and both of us who are brought up in a particular way.

[00:10:57] But you sound like someone out of Peaky Blinders now.

[00:11:01] But this is it, isn’t it? Because, you know, you as a dentist, you have to be professional. But actually most of us, we walk up a particular way and there will be our wreak havoc.

[00:11:12] Yeah, we have our instincts in the way we react as human beings. Individually and, you know, that whole social media journey, you know, I went through a period where I was posting every single day, right? Multiple times a day at times. And I’ve just picked that up again. But the one the one what I noticed is I was getting consumed with comments, direct messages. I’ll tell you what it did do. It created a massive uplift in business. And the reason it did that is, you know, there’ll be some people that resonate with my content and some people will say, who the hell does this guy think he is? Right. And I’m cool with either. All right. But you do get emotionally impact with it. And I started to withdraw from real life.

[00:11:53] Yeah.

[00:11:53] So whatever’s going on there that I get distracted in, my daughter walks in and even though she’s in the room, I’m not in the room with her. Right. And that’s sad. And I think COVID took me away from social media, if that makes sense. I got COVID had it pretty bad. Yeah.

[00:12:08] I remember you.

[00:12:09] Saying disappeared body. And it’s it’s a breath of fresh air. And what I’m trying now is to post and not check it. Right. So I’ll put a piece of content out there and just not check in and try my best to not give a you know what? And that’s my that’s my strategy now because real life is far more important, right?

[00:12:30] Lately. Yeah. And and I think and I think what is interesting is, you know, you’re right, because there’s a guy called a shaman and he does. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is the stuff about Instagram. And it is interesting because he’s saying you don’t have to post every day because it is because you know, you’re having to you’re checking it and you almost have to like keep an eye on it and almost have to grow it. And it’s like, that’s not but but again, I’m too old, so I don’t know if that’s the way to do it because I earn money by physically seeing patients. Right now, I understand social media has changed, especially with Instagram, where you are, you have to work it every day because you want patients to come to you directly. And I’m in a very fortunate position because I’m a specialist. I don’t need patients to come to me. I need dentists to refer to me because and that’s why I have to lecture. And I love it. And I do whatever I have to do to network and build that relationship with dentists. So maybe, maybe Instagram or whatever it is has changed the way you interact with patients. But, you know, like I said, as you maybe post once a week, but then step away from it if you can. And you’re right, you know, that’s the right thing to do. Christmas is probably about Christmas. I just didn’t use my phone for two weeks and it was just so good I didn’t miss it. But what was amazing went back to work and I was straight back on to Facebook and Instagram because I was like, Oh, good, let’s just check. But then I realised I don’t need it, you know.

[00:13:58] It’s like crack. Me Yeah, it’s addictive. And you know, I think for you, you know, if you came to me and said, Look, what should I do with my social media? You’ve just you’ve just told me what you should do already without even knowing it, which is your audience are dentists. Yeah. And they come to you because you’ve got a level of expertise, clinical, academic, you know, whatever it is, knowledge, experience that they don’t have. Right. Whether it’s treatment, planning, identifying stuff, carrying out the surgery, whatever it is, you’ve got that experience and expertise. So if I was in your shoes, if you wanted to grow that side of things, I would be sharing case reviews and tips, hence that sort of thing. And it doesn’t have to be every day. But you know, you are louder than life character because of your bright, you know, attire and all the rest of it. Right. So people know Amit Patel has arrived. Yeah. And so I think you I think you do really well on social, but I guess the key comes down to do you really need it, right.

[00:14:57] Yeah. And actually you’re going back to that, you know. Yes, I do dress a particular way and I probably I do to be, you know, to be what it contrived or whatever it is or I don’t know what the word is. But just to show that, look, you know what?

[00:15:16] I am not a conformist.

[00:15:18] Yeah. There you go. That’s the word. Yeah. So and I do that on purpose because, you know, as a student, I didn’t fit in very well at university. I just did anything else but dentistry. Right? I did have long hair back then. And they’d be saying, if you don’t cut your hair, you will fail finals. So I had to cut the hair and I still fell finals.

[00:15:41] So that’s because you’re Sampson me and all your power was in your hair.

[00:15:45] Yeah, yeah, but. But, yeah. And then now obviously I’m a specialist and it’s like, okay, I could look and dress a particular way, but, you know, I don’t really care. I don’t need to show people this is what I am. And I’ve been to I’ve been, again, very fortunate that I’ve lectured at some of the biggest events in the world. So I’ve lecture Europe area where we have 13, 14,000 people at this event, and I’ve done it three, two times and I’ve been on and I’ve been lecturing next to the people that I want to be like and emulate. You know, I’ve always looked up to and even in that situation, I will address a particular professionally, but then I’m rocking around with a twist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, you know, but people, you know, because they assume that you aren’t someone who’s got a brain or whatever. And then but it’s not an issue. I mean, I’m not I’m not very competitive is the truth. But yeah, sorry. We were digressing about social media, but I think one of the issues it could be based on the web and brought up because I’m not the most confident of people about my abilities because I still feel that I’ve got so much more to learn. But there’s a lot of people and it could be the way they’ve been educated that they are very, very confident and they come out thinking that they are so good.

[00:17:01] But when I qualified as a student, I realised as a dentist I realised that I had so much more to that. Even when I qualified as a specialist, I realised I wasn’t good enough to even call myself a specialist. Right know. I mean, I did four years training at guys at St Thomas’s. I only place 13 implants in four years. That means I ain’t good at anything. Right. And I went out of my way to so to meet the people, the best people in the world. I went to Milan. A good friend of mine is a professor in Perio. Julia Russell really spent a month there learning how to do periodontal regeneration and all this kind of cool stuff. And then I built the network of people that he knew some of the best periodontist in the world. And then I went and watched some amazing implant dentists, you know, many weeks with them. And then there’s some here in the UK that I’ve spent lots of time with and I realised actually there’s so much more I can do and now I can give to my patients. And then I was, I was at hanging out with my mate at Harvard, spending a bit of time there to learn loads of stuff that they were doing. And his name is David Kim. He’s a professor there now. And and all that network has worked really well for me because I still want to learn more.

[00:18:12] I mean, I’m off to Brazil in August to learn from this young soft tissue expert called Ricardo Kearns. And he’s just an amazing individual. And we’ve been friends for about five years. And if I mess up a case and I do mess up tons of cases, right. And if I haven’t got a clue what to do, I call up Asia, man. Yeah. And I call up another mate, Michael David Gonzalez, in Spain. And I got all these other individuals that will say, look, this is the way to fix it and oh, let’s see how it heals. And they’re much they’re really cool individuals. They’re not critical. They tell you the where where it went wrong. So it’s really good. So I’m always learning on a regular basis. So, so that’s been the biggest thing of social media for me because, you know, you meet some of these individuals who you’ve built that relationship and then, yeah, good lifelong relationships and then you go and visit them as friends. And now because of the Adeyeye, the Association of Dental Implants ology, I’ve been very, very fortunate where I can just ring up anybody and they’ll come and do it. I mean, there’s a guy called Thomas Albrechtsen Albrechtsen, and he’s essentially the godfather of implant dentistry and he’s going to be lecturing on the conference next year. Oh, wow, he’s never left the UK.

[00:19:28] We’ll come back to the ADA. I’ve got quite a few questions around that. But going back to your upbringing, you mentioned that, you know, maybe, you know, you don’t have the confidence because because of your upbringing. Right. And I can resonate with that. And I also think about my own kids who were beaming with confidence. Right. Will stand upon a stage in front of 100 kids and belt out, you know, whatever it is they need to and have zero anxiety. Right. I know. You know, I’ve got a couple of lectures coming up every time that happens, right. The butterflies kick in me. Yeah. And I start thinking about all those sort of things. Doesn’t, doesn’t. And we’ve seen the younger generation on social media just have bags of confidence. Right. And I think part of that is to do with our upbringing. But what do you think it is about your upbringing, where you feel that?

[00:20:15] So the thing is, I, you know, when I was shit at something, I was told I was shit at something, right? So that was fine. And it didn’t, it didn’t bother me. So I had to work hard and do better. Right. But it wasn’t like I was told. It was good because you even knew it was rubbish. I mean, you know, it was rubbish, right? So I think that was what was good about it. I think that is real. Been a benefit for me, I’d say. And, and you know, if I pretended to sing my mum and dad was you’re pretty rubbish. And I’m like, fine, that’s the end of it. I’m not going to do it. I mean, maybe that’s not the right thing. And it’s interesting because also when I was at dental school. It’s all changed now. But if you are rubbish at something, they did tell you, right? So that was a good thing. Right. And it just made me want to think, och, I would never get to the point where I said I’m going to prove them wrong because that’s that, isn’t it?

[00:21:17] Not you.

[00:21:19] I had no interest in that, but I wanted to get better than I will do it. So I think that was the reason. And and also there’s this there’s this saying, isn’t it physical imposter syndrome or something like that?

[00:21:31] Do you know what that was screaming out at me? And the reason why is you just said to me, oh, I did this. I did my specialist training. I did this only place, this implant. I’ve gone and see this guy, but I’m still not good enough. Yeah. And to me, it just screams imposter syndrome, because you kind of feel like you’re putting yourself out there, I guess. I don’t know what. What’s your take on that? What’s your take on imposter syndrome?

[00:21:56] I mean, I didn’t realise that’s what it was call what I had. It’s like you said. So you and I both lecturing in this thing at this weekend. Right? And I am anxious about it. Right. And I will be doing it until it’s like an exam. You are poo in your pants until you sit there, write your name on top of the exam paper, and then suddenly everything goes away. Yes. And that’s what will happen. So I am so nervous to the point where I’m doing my presentation just before the before I plug it in. And, you know, it’s the same thing with Europe area, right? So I knew that I was lecturing with a guy called Otto Xur and Gallop Gazelle and a guy called David Herrera all at the same time on the same stage. And and, you know, I knew a year in advance and I was still anxious about it for a whole year until I turned up and did it, did the talk. And I can’t get rid of that. And, and yeah, I don’t know, I don’t know the answer to that. But I mean, it’s like when I go, you know, I love you, brother, don’t you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think he’s he’s just an amazing human being. Right. And, you know, when I stand next to him and he just oozes confidence that every single pore of his body, it is hilarious. And and next thing I know, I’m in awe of this man. Right. And the rest is I’m like six foot and he’s like, two foot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, makes me look like I’m the smallest person in the room because of what he has, you know? And it’s amazing. But he has confidence based on how good he is. Right. And clinical ability and his knowledge and all of this stuff that makes him.

[00:23:41] But the one thing Caleb does is he does speak volumes about you. And he does say to me that, you know, you’ve got that guy who you can call up when shit goes wrong. Yeah, you’re his guy. Oh, really? Yeah. And he says to me, you know, it’s nice to have someone like Hamlet who I can just whizz a photograph across to pick up the phone. And, you know, he just squares me away. He sells me out, right? So even though you’re in the same room and you’re looking up to this, you know, two and a half foot guy or down to him that he does look up to you as well, mate. And, you know, he comes to you for that for that higher level advice. I would say.

[00:24:22] This. So I don’t I don’t know about the confidence thing. I mean, I think I’ll always like it. I mean, again, it comes to also if an individual ask me a question, I know I will know the answers and I will answer in a professional way. But but when someone sort of says to me, Oh, yeah, I think the work is good online, I get really embarrassed and I’m like, Oh, that’s very kind. But actually I think this is not as good or whatever it is, you know what I mean? So I don’t know. I don’t I don’t know how you deal with that because I mean, it’s a really good friend of mine called Nick Fahy and you know him as well.

[00:24:53] I know Nick. Yeah. Good friend of mine, too. Yeah.

[00:24:56] Yeah, he’s exceptional individual. He’s. He’s somebody I’ve known for 12 years now. Right. And he’s amazing. And he’s a specialist in his field and he runs a stunning practise in Pango. And what’s interesting about him is he’s been pushing digital implant dentistry and the whole concept of guided implant dentistry for 12 years and he knows more than most people around the world, and yet he lacks confidence because he feels maybe he’s, you know, he’s not in the right place or whatever it is. But it is fascinating. But I will go and say. Days of them learning from him because he knows everything. And yet we’re in the same position where it’s like, Well, hang on, I’m thinking to myself. He’s a specialist in prosthetics and I’m a specialist in Perio. And what I’m trying to say is that he’s probably thinking, why is this periodontist come to learn from me? And I’d be thinking, why is this dentist is a specialist for me? But it’s like, well, he should already know it, you know what I mean? But it is I don’t know. I don’t know how you get over that. I don’t know. The things are changing.

[00:26:02] Yeah. Look, I’ve had many conversations with Nick and his wife, Sarah, about the whole Nick confidence thing. Right. Because he is bloody amazing at what he does, right? There’s no question about that. He’s. He’s somebody who I’d consider to be quietly confident. Yeah, but you can’t go out there and blow his own horn. It just it just doesn’t have that in him. And I respect.

[00:26:22] That because, I mean, I know we know he’s not British, but I think it is. And the way I was brought up is, you know, you’re British and we do have a stiff upper lip. Yeah, but maybe that’s changed now. Well, you know, the days you meet these British individuals in the past, you watch films, they would never they’d have this air of confidence, but they wouldn’t blow their own trumpet. I mean. Yeah.

[00:26:47] But but then, you know, you grow in going back to you. Growing up as a kid, I don’t tell my kids the shit.

[00:26:53] Yeah.

[00:26:54] And I was told I was shit. I come home. Must test. Yeah. Got 98%. Dad, what up. What happened to the other two. Yeah. What happened to the other two. That’s, that’s what I used to get. Right. So I think there’s probably some truth in that in terms of the way we were brought up and the, you know, the encouragement or their lack of that we had. Right. But it shaped us into who we are today. Yeah, exactly. You know, the way I see or deal with my own imposter syndrome these days is, you know, may I might be delivering a piece of content out there that is the same piece of content that someone else is delivering who is far superior to me in experience, years of knowledge and whatever. Right. But it’s the same content being delivered. But guess what? Some people prefer that content to be delivered by a two and a half bald guy. Yeah. And some people prefer that content to be delivered by the other guy who is the the pioneer of it or whatever. Right.

[00:27:55] And that’s cool and right. It’s just people will engage with you or relate to you in different ways.

[00:28:02] In different ways, mate. So, you know the way I do it and I’m still not over it, right? I get anxious all the time. But I do think that the way I deal with it is saying that, you know what, the way Prav delivers it, nobody else can deliver it like rough. Right. And that’s not arrogance. That’s not arrogance. It’s just Prav does it this way. And somebody else might deliver the same concept in a way better than Prav, right? I’m cool with that, right? And that’s how I try and sort of process it in my own head, mate. But moving on to your upbringing.

[00:28:37] Going back to this confidence thing, so I know I’m not told about imposter syndrome, but essentially so when I was a student, if I if I got a B, I was very content, like, okay, if I go to see I got into trouble because they were saying, that’s really bad.

[00:28:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:28:56] All I wanted was the least amount of replies I wanted just to get out of there and get a beat. So I was and but I teach because I moved to Birmingham and I teach at the university here in chapel. Yes. So that tells you who’s. An exceptional friend, and he’s helped me go into different directions. But essentially when I was teaching the students there, I learnt. That their confidence is amazing. Right. So. So I remember one day and I’d be you know, I always remembered that when I was a student at Liverpool, I didn’t want to be that clinician who showed favouritism to a particular sex or a particular individual, which is always the way back then, right? Yeah. So I remember one one student and I give everybody B’s, you know, because they were average, you know, and they were good enough, you know what I mean? And once you turn up to me and she said, I disagree with your grading, and I was like, Oh, really? You’re only like a third year or fourth year. Where do you get this? Confidence is amazing. And then all these individuals are like they will go and shit.

[00:30:11] They don’t know what it’s going to be like because and I just went so. So do you think your what grade you want? And she went like I’m like, okay. So I said, so does that mean you’re as good as me? And then she backed down very, very quickly because they don’t realise the scale. Yeah. And you know, and, and I thought and then she and obviously she looked like an idiot in front of her mates. Right. Which was, which was really, which wasn’t my plan, but obviously that’s the way it ended up. But, but I was amazed. And then I’ve done all this teaching the trainer stuff. Oh, my God, I do that years ago. And and it’s fascinating when we got in this position where we say to people, so. Where do you think you did well? Where do you think you did bad? I mean, it’s like. What? It’s just. And we’re so much more cautious about not. You know, especially when you’re talking to someone face to face, it’s like, you know, you want them to do better, don’t you? You don’t want them to do that. No.

[00:31:17] But you know what? These days we just got to be careful about the words we use. Right. The certain words I used to use growing up that I couldn’t repeat on this podcast. Right. Because because someone would tear me a new one. Right. And maybe, you know, if we were having a beer or over dinner, I’d come out with that stuff. Right. No problem. So, you know, we are in a more cautious society.

[00:31:39] You say this because I was I was when I was driving back from Newcastle on Friday night at stupid o’clock and I was in bed by 130, but essentially at 9:00 on Radio four, there was something about it’s about the nineties and it’s really, really good because essentially it talks about I can’t remember who there was this film called Trainspotting, and there was a particular Scottish actor in a big Hollywood attached, I remember. So he’s he’s the one talking about it and it talks about. So in the eighties, we’re very much more politically correct, right? Yeah. And and then the nineties became less politically correct. But that also led to some of the issues that we have now in 2020. It really, really interesting. You’ve got to listen to that radio for 9:00. And I think it’s a it’s a bunch of it’s it’s called the nineties or something like that. But and it sort of put into perspective about the Internet coming into into the into the nineties. And this is why we now become much more woke because of what happened back then. Sure. And and that also talks about the Ukraine situation and stuff like that. And coming down to the of the war is very, very good.

[00:32:53] But again, it’s about the reason why I’m talking about that is because it also has given these a lot of people this self-confidence and their ability to just say what they need to say. But it’s also made it very difficult for us to be. Because end of the day, 90% of us will say things and it’s not really to hurt people. But that small 10% is so loud and making it difficult for us to be part of society. I mean, look, I have patients of a certain age, right? And they are blatantly racist. Right. And does it bother me? No, because it doesn’t matter. Right. Because because they’re in their seventies or their eighties, but they don’t, you know, and that is fine. But why am I going to try to change their attitude? Why do I need to do that? Why do I want to you know, they’ve only got a certain number of years and then they’re feeling that they’re not part of society. Does that make sense? And it’s because they’re scared of the wrong things, you know? Do you know what I mean?

[00:33:56] Makes complete sense, mate. You know, at the end of the day, you know, I look at those individuals, the older generation, who are racist. Right. It’s just the way they are. It’s the way they’ve been brought up. It’s the way that it’s what they’ve been exposed to. Right. And what’s this seven year old going to do to you?

[00:34:11] Yeah.

[00:34:12] Yeah. They’ve got their own preconceived ideas. So what? Right. Move on. Get on with your life, you know?

[00:34:19] And what is interesting is that that 70 year old doesn’t even see me. As being of a different colour. Which is hilarious. Okay, but. But everybody’s racist, right? Because it also it came back when it came to Brexit. So I’d be asking my patients of this age because they’re obviously. Doesn’t matter what race they are. Right. You know, they’ve they’ve seen the benefit of the of the EU and before the EU and then they realised this rubbish. So I get Asian patients come in, I’m going which way you’re voting and they say I’m voting Brexit. And I’m like, well why is that. We have too many foreigners in the UK. So this is a foreigner. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You say you have English people saying I’m voting for Brexit for the same reason, and so we’re all racist in our own little ways. It just depends on how you communicate with your circle of friends and who you let in and out. You know what I mean?

[00:35:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s that sliding scale again, right? We’re going to move on from this conversation.

[00:35:19] Before I get to this one. Yeah.

[00:35:21] Oh, we get carried away. But we can we can continue at the dentistry show next week. But you know what? When did you when did you decide dentistry was for you? Was it was it one of these, you know, Asian parents brought up in that environment? Doctor, dentist, lawyer, what was the.

[00:35:41] So I went to not a very good school, so and it is now a very good school, supposedly so. So I was 16 and I wanted to leave school. I wanted to join the army or or become a plumber. I just I hate I hate I didn’t hate academia. I didn’t want to. Yeah, I’m really rubbish at learning and, and they were like, well my mates decided to do the A-levels. So I was like, I wouldn’t did that. So they were doing like graphic design. They wanted to be graphic designers and all that. So my mates were not anyway, none of my mates, the doctors or medicks or whatever. And then I went to do my A-levels and then the teacher sort of said and I was good at woodwork, right?

[00:36:24] So I was good at woodwork, my loved CBT they used to call it.

[00:36:28] But then yeah, yeah, design and technology and I love the lathe and all that sort of stuff. I love that. And this would out of everything okay if I left school at 16, right? Yeah. And then they were like, Well, you seem to be good with your hands. You know what? Maybe you should do dentistry. I’m like, okay, fine. And that was it, really. And but then it was a B and two CS.

[00:36:50] And what was that? Some careers dude said to you, give dentistry a go. They flicked a book open and go, Oh yeah, you’re good with your hands. Give us.

[00:36:58] A shot. And that was it. And I remember it very vividly. I’m like, Okay, I’ll do it. Because my mates had decided that they were going to go and do graphic design or or whatever it was. Yeah, designing graphic design and and I went, okay, fine, I’ll do that. And, and my school again, we had a sixth form in the school and most of us went, we all failed at A-levels, most of us, and the rest that didn’t didn’t fail, you know, they did. All right, A-levels. They still went to a polytechnic because we had polytechnics like that, right?

[00:37:31] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:37:33] So yeah, that’s what it was. So I just did it for the sake of it. But then the problem, what happened was I did fail in A-levels and I got what I get, I got a C yeah. And I got an E and I got an RN. An RN is a near miss. I see now. That’s right.

[00:37:49] Do you know what you you should have told that girl when she came to you and said, hey, I’m not happy with my B, I bumped you up from a C, love. Where do you want to go?

[00:37:56] Yeah, that was really smart. Yeah.

[00:38:00] Well, go on. So. So you got you got a near miss. What happened? What happened.

[00:38:04] Next? I was really, really gutted because I thought I was going to get these A-levels and and but I didn’t work for it, you know, and I knew I hadn’t worked for it and it was just stupid really. And then I and then my mum and dad realised, oh hang on, maybe the school isn’t that good. They took us out of the school. I got a little Oh. And they put us in a crummy school. Right. And I had a very good friend, that Japanese friend Yuki and he lives in, lives in Japan now and, and his mum took him out of that school a year before without A-levels because she realised he wasn’t going to do well. So he went to this grammar college and then did very well, then left with a successful career. And so my mum and dad took us to the same college and we understood how to sit an exam and all these things. And my brother, brother got his A-levels, really good A-levels and went on to Aston and then I, I got three B’s and I went on to Liverpool but essentially when I went for my interview. So obviously nowadays there’s no way I’d even get an opportunity to be a dentist or a doctor or whatever, right? Because you have to do really well in your swimming test at the age of eight before you’re even allowed into one of these to do a degree like that. So I was rejected at all of these places because I wasn’t. My interview process is rubbish, you know. It’s not very good and it’s still not very good.

[00:39:25] Did you turn up in a bright turquoise tracksuit at your interview?

[00:39:30] No, I wore my dad’s suit because, you know, it was like I was like where my dad said didn’t fit. I never owned a suit. You know what I mean? It was.

[00:39:40] I remember going shopping at Burton for my first seatmate. Do you remember that store?

[00:39:45] Yeah, I do love it. Actually, go buy the bird. So when I went to Liverpool, we were told we have to buy dinner jackets and stuff because there was going to be loads of balls with it. And I’m like, Oh man, they’re expensive. So we had this place called the it was, it was called cardigans and you’d go into this place in Liverpool and it’s like loads of stores in it and second-hand clothes and you’d go and buy your dinner jacket. So I bought a dinner jacket for 20 quid and in it it was made like 1930 or something and it was written on it. It was really hilarious. Nice. The font was very different. I have a burnt jacket now at last. But. But yeah. When I went to my interview at Liverpool it was shocking interview because I’m not good at it and they just said, So I suppose you’ve been rejected from all the other places? I said, Yes. So would you like an offer here? I said, Yes, please.

[00:40:37] Wow.

[00:40:38] Yeah.

[00:40:38] And it was this directors that directors that.

[00:40:41] Yeah, and this is a long time ago. I remember it very, very vividly. And they said to me, So what, what grade would you like? And I said, Well, I prefer three E’s, please. And they’re like, Well, that ain’t going to happen. And that was it. And then I turned up. It’s funny because, you know, when my mum and dad drove us to university, it was on the same day. So my brother was in north west London up there one and six dropped my brother off at Aston and it was I remember dropping him off and I was thinking I was very anxious for him, you know, and he’s he was only 18 and stuff and, and it was good. My mum was calm and then they dropped me off at Liverpool and I was shitting myself because I’ve never left home. But more than that I want to stay London because my mates are there. There’s nothing exists out of London right now. That’s what I thought. And, and, and I remember, you know, my dad told me my mum cried 200 miles back home because they’d lost their kids. So it wasn’t like it wasn’t life. It wasn’t like, you know, I left a year early and then they had my brother.

[00:41:54] Yeah. How did you not clocked your exams or you would have been all right.

[00:41:58] My fucking fault. And it was. I felt so bad when I heard like shit. Yeah. And it was the funny, right? So essentially my mum would say, you know, it’s cold up north. So I was the only one at university who had an electric blanket.

[00:42:17] Say me. I grew up with those electric blankets. Yes.

[00:42:22] Yeah, I know, but it’s hilarious. And I’m they’re like if I’ve ever invited him in to my room. What is that? It’s my electric chair, you know what I mean? But I remember sitting in my home and he says, Roscoe and Gladstone at Liverpool. I just sat in a room. I did not know how to interact with people, any of that sort of stuff. And I just sat there and I got knock on the door and this big tall guy called Sean Rollins and he’s he’s Welsh and he’s 62 and he was loud Welsh accent and he goes, Hi, hi. My name is Sean Rowlands. I’m doing a veterinary degree. What’s your name? And we just became such good friends. Otherwise I would be still sitting in my room then and can you know. And he he suddenly just that, that, that, that one thing. Yeah. And it was, it was just and then, you know, you’re at Liverpool and you know, we had Brookside back then and you know, you heard the Scouser accent, what the hell is that? And you know, I got in the cab to the union the first, second night or something and this guy had such a strong Scouse accent.

[00:43:27] It was obviously from Everton or exactly or wherever. And I was just thinking to myself, Are you actually asking me for a fight? Because I don’t actually know what you’re saying because it sounds so aggressive, you know? But then it took me it took me three months before I could understand what they would say. Yeah, it was, it was good. And going to Liverpool I think made me a better person because I, I could, you know, became much more individual and I could survive on my own. You know, you had your own money, you never had to ask anybody for whatever. You just had to survive. Yeah. And I look at some of my friends who said in London, they’ve definitely not moved away too far from where they were originally from, which I think, fine, you know the choice. But I think if you were to leave, if you have the opportunity, you should take it and run with it. Really? So it was good.

[00:44:18] Push him as far. Yeah. My daughter’s at Edinburgh now and I was very keen on her not going to Manchester or Liverpool or anywhere nearby. Do you know what I mean? Not because there’s anything wrong with Manchester. Liverpool. It’s just.

[00:44:29] No, no, no, no.

[00:44:30] Too close to home, right? Disappear. Go spread your wings.

[00:44:33] And come home straight away. Ask for trouble, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Of course. I remember and this is interesting because because I back then I had a bank account with Lloyds and I thought, you know, because everybody switching bank accounts, I thought, let me do it because this might be a good thing. And I did. And at that point, I was stuck because I was there was no income, no money and stuff. And at that point, I remember it very vividly. I was shitting myself, right? And it wasn’t like there was loads of money, you know, but but I didn’t ring up my dad or my mum and say, Hey, look, I need a hand. But it just sort of had to deal with it, you know, it was. And all those things I think have allowed me to shape you. Yeah. And adapt to situations and and you know, bad things have happened to me, right? Without a doubt. Right. But it just makes you hopefully stronger, really. And, and if things come and somebody throw shit at you, you can just deal with it, you know?

[00:45:32] So I’m moving on from obviously you got into Liverpool University not with threes but but you know, some, some, some more respectable grades. And then what was just what was your university experience like in general? We did you get your head down at that point? Were you a bit of a party animal? Just talk me through university experience and was there any point during that journey where you thought, I want to be a periodontist?

[00:46:00] I love that we want to be a periodontist. Okay. Right. So so I was very lucky that the halls of residence I was living in was full of art students. Right. So the law or whatever degree there was and it was it was a luck, but also a bad situation as well, because they obviously did not have to be at university five days a week, 9 to 5. They could do what the fuck they wanted, which is amazing. Yeah. So I was distracted quite a lot. So the little Liverpool is such a small city, but the campus is is amazing because you have the art side here as well, the unions here. And on this side there’s the medical school and the dental school. Yeah, science sciences in this direction. But essentially I would leave the dental school and I just stroll over there and I’d hang out with all the students because the reality for me was they were having fun. Right? Of course. And maybe that’s why I didn’t fit in with in my own dental school, because I was less than student orientated, because we just did our own thing and I thought, I know the whole universities here.

[00:47:06] So yeah. So I used to go out every night and and obviously the weekends are a bit more restful of, but it was good. And you think about it actually it’s interesting because if you go and do that now, it’s a nightmare. You can’t I can’t stay out till silly o’clock and then work the next day. But we did it for like five years and it was great. But the negative about living with art students was when it came to sitting exams. They’d finished their exams in May or whenever, and they were having a great time. And you were they’re still working towards the exam so and then I always live with the non dentists, so it was, I’ve always had that sort of relationship but going back to dental school. So within the first three months we did something called up tech where we drill, drill these plastic, drill real teeth. And I realised at the end of that I thought, I can’t do this as a career, you know, because.

[00:48:05] If the first three.

[00:48:06] Months yeah, but I was committed to finish it, I was never going to walk away.

[00:48:11] No.

[00:48:12] Because I was having a good time and I’m a degree’s degree end of the day. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So that was that. And it’s interesting that I bring this point up because I’ve met dental students who are at university now and they are three years into the degree and they have realised they don’t, they don’t like it but, but they don’t want to finish it, they want to do something, they want to, they want to leave and find something else. And I find that very difficult to comprehend because again, I’ve got friends who’ve done medicine, dentistry, and they’ve gone on and done completely different things, you know, and you, you, you’re an example of that and they’ve become very successful. So anyway, did dentistry finished it? And then year and year four, I turned up at a hospital in Woolton, which is really rough area, and we were there for a week and I’m like watching these go into that and watching these blokes. Have you seen them, predator? Yeah. Do you remember the predator? Where the guy gets his. Gets his mask off and the.

[00:49:14] Face comes apart? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:49:17] So there I am. I’m rocking up and I’m going. Patient’s face has been opened up like predator. And I’m going. What the hell? And I’m saying to them, Are you all dentists? And they’re like, Yeah, yeah, we’re dentists. And then they say, I said, But, but you cut this guy’s face open and they’re like, Well, we’ve done medicine as well. We’re surgeons. And we said they were maxillofacial surgeons and the guy’s name was James Brown and he was a consultant. And there was loads of registrars and there was a guy called Simon Rogers. He’s a professor now there. He was an amazing individual who helped me, you know, help me massively and loads of registrars there, John Devine and Dave Jones and all this sort of stuff. But essentially because they liked me and I was just so enthusiastic, they used to always drag me in and do that. Gomez Fratricide. Gomez And and mandibles. They got me to do all this stuff as a senior. And I was thinking, You know what? I like this. I might go and do medicine, right? And so at that point I said, right, get the degree out of the way, go on and do house jobs, max back jobs, and then go and do medicine. So I got my dental degree at last. I failed. Failed finals.

[00:50:29] Failed finals as well as A-levels.

[00:50:31] Yeah. Good Lord. How many times tell you? Yeah, exactly. No one was there to keep an eye on me, but. But essentially, this. These things would never happen. But in year three, there was an orthodontic consultant, and he didn’t like my attitude. And I never he never taught me after that. We never had any ones. And I was quite proud, I should say. I’m quite proud of it. But I was the first one to fail this exam at Liverpool Dental School and it was called Paediatrics and Orthodontic Dentistry. And no one, no one fails ever. I mean, it’s just a mickey Mouse exam. No one will fail that obviously I did and I’ve missed it by 2%. I even had a viva. And then I went and spoke to the paediatric consultant and his name is Mr. Lee was lovely. And he says, I didn’t think to me you did not fail. Right. And then when I saw the orthodontic consultant who runs the department, he just said, and back then we had no recording devices or anything like that. Right. Just so he said to me, he says, he says you fell because of your attitude. And if you don’t change your attitude, I’ll spare you again. And I then became this little meek individual after that. And luckily enough, I passed all the other exams by 60, 65. Right. And but then there was the people in the hospital would have a meeting and they would say, okay, who they should feel should pass, who should fail and stuff. And obviously no one put the hand up that I should pass.

[00:52:01] But one of the consultants was living in in Sheffield or Leeds. Leeds. And he came back and he said to me, he says, if I was there it would have been a different. Different, yeah. Because I wasn’t a rubbish chute. And you know what, I was very, very upset and very angry about the whole situation because I knew I was not the shitty student. I mean, and I will say this now, I don’t really care. You know, there were worse students in our year and I have not heard where they are, but they’re passed, right? Yeah. I was very angry and bitter about it all. But you know, now when I think about it, like everybody should think about stuff, would I be here talking to you? Would I have met your brother? Would I have become a specialist in Perio or whatever it is? Would I have had those opportunities, what I’ve published and everything that I’ve done? No, you know, and it’s so funny because, you know, so then I passed my degree obviously. Yeah. And then came back as a house officer and that consultant got many complaints about from me, about about me actually because I didn’t work. He was always complaining and he was saying, look, we know you have an issue with him, but he’s doing that. I said, does he do I work for him because no, I, I don’t give a shit. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but anyway, so then I, then I did my house job, I did my jobs and I loved it and I got my PhD.

[00:53:27] Yes. And I got into medical school, I got into Leeds, I got into a three year course and during that time I then did vet because I thought, you know what, I need to do vocational training because I’ve got to get that out of my way. Sure. Because I’m still a dentist. Right. It’s not like I didn’t you know, I wasn’t sure what I did not like about dentistry. Right. So I thought, let’s get out of the way. And and in that vet, I met a guy I went we went to see a specialist in in Manchester at a place called. It was called, but it’s called the Malthouse now, but essentially. David Cohen, who’s an orthodontist, was just so enthusiastic he was doing I mean, root canal treatment is mind numbingly boring when I was a student, but this guy made it sound so interesting. So I thought, you know what, maybe this is this is interesting. And then he took me out to dinner and he took me out with a periodontist that work there called Phil Green. And he said to me, you know, if you go with a scalpel, then do perio. I wasn’t looking for in any any other. Korean. But I was listening and keeping my options open and. Okay, I’ll, I’ll maybe I might consider Perrier because I’ll use a scalpel. And at that point, the speciality training pathway was being set up because the specialist had been set up because of the EU regulations. And we’re the only country that went the whole hog, whereas the rest of the European Union didn’t do that.

[00:54:45] So as always, and then I worked at UCL as an WHO and I realised how unhappy all of these registrars and consultants were. They were just so unhappy and I thought, I’ve been lucky to work at all of these amazing places and suddenly I’m exposed to these people who are unhappy. And I thought maybe that could be me because I’d have been a consultant age of 44. Okay? And so I then deferred medicine and got into the period training pathway and an A and again there was a mentor there called Allan City and he then made me realise what you can do. Now you go to his practise in, in Harley Street and he would show me, you know, look, we’re doing all this sort of reconstructing bone, all this sort of stuff. And I thought, okay, this is cool. And then from that point I then actually realised I love dentistry and the reason why I love it is it’s the interaction with the patient. The work is an exceptionally difficult if I’m having a laugh from a patient and just, just chatting away or whatever, it was really good. And I’m so pleased I didn’t go down that path of. Do match facts because the whole political situation within the NHS, I think I would be very, very annoyed and frustrated now. I like this autonomy that Kailash has. You have where we are our own own individuals and we make our own decisions. No one else is telling us.

[00:56:07] Yeah, you’re in control of your own destiny, right? You you make your own look, as they say.

[00:56:14] Exactly.

[00:56:15] So I assume you got you got through your period training and did you pass your exams?

[00:56:20] Yes, I did. Yes. Yes. First time I did. I know is.

[00:56:23] Relatively well done. So moving on from there, you became a fully fledged specialist. And then and then what happens after that? Did you what was your transition from this point to actually becoming a dental practise owner? Right. Because traditionally you’ve worked in hospitals, which is very, very different to where you are now, where you’re building relationships with your patients. Right. Completely like chalk and cheese. So just take us through that. Take us through that journey.

[00:56:52] You’re right. So, you know, the thing is, with working in a hospital, you wear this white coat and patients then think this is the highest opinion you will get and that’s it, and they usually believe you. But then when I started working in practise, it was a very different situation. Yes, yes, you were a specialist, but because you weren’t when that white coat didn’t come across in that same way. And also it was also a lack of confidence on my part, my part, knowing how little I experience I had, you know, and how much more I should I should be able to do so. So it was a very difficult transition. And one of the reasons and one of the things, you know, is I’ve worked in London and I was working in quite a few practises and I used to work in some really amazing practises and it was good and I used to work, to work in Manchester and all this sort of stuff as well with Phil Green. But I think I just got bored with all the commuting and stuff. And then my, my girlfriend who’s an intensive care consultant in Birmingham, and she said to me, Listen, why don’t you move up here in 2008? So I then 2007, 2008. So I did, I had no work because, you know, when you train as a specialist, most of us stay in the southeast where the money is and all the training is there. Whereas I just moved up to Birmingham and here in the city there was only three specialists and one of them was me.

[00:58:07] And it’s a very nice working class city. And again, I was commuting around not as you know, probably further than I would have done in London, but it would take the same length of time because it was just, you know, less traffic and stuff and no tubes. And then I enjoyed that. I built my experience because I work with some really I worked for a guy called Jason Glass and he owned three specialist practises in Shrewsbury, Stafford and in Birmingham and I learnt loads from him and understood about business then as well because he’s a very smart cookie. And I also then when I came to Birmingham, Prof. Chappell, Ian Chappell offered me a job and that was, that was an amazing thing, you know, because, you know, he’s the world’s best scientist in dentistry. Two years ago he was nominated the best scientist award in dentistry. Right. Wow. And anybody I went anywhere in the world, people that I’d read about. As soon as you tell them you worked for Ian Chappell or your you know, him, they suddenly want to they suddenly just talk about how how dynamic he is as an individual and you just realise it. You’re with one of the best people you know, and he’s the one who’s, in my opinion has built, helped me build my reputation because he’ll sort of push my name around and, and I’ve always been grateful for that really. And yeah, proper, proper. I mean what I say I love him. Yeah, I love him. Yeah. Because he’s done lots of.

[00:59:41] You seem to have crossed paths with a lot of sort of very well respected clinicians, scientists, academics. Even when you mentioned fourth year at dental school, you were the kid who got in to watch the Zigomanis and stuff, right? I’m taking it that there wasn’t another six dental students doing that. Right. You managed to to get that. What do you think it is about you that sort of enables you to connect with these individuals? Because right at the beginning we were talking about your lack of confidence. And yet, you know, you get this unique opportunity at fourth year at dental school, you’re Ian Chappell’s pushing your name around. Phil Green is the guy who said pick up the scalpel and, you know, do perio or whatever. And all of these names I have heard of, I don’t know to what extent their gravitas takes. You’ve just educated me on that piece, but what is it about you that that connects you with these individuals? Are you better one on one than you are in groups? What is it that.

[01:00:40] I don’t I don’t know the answer that you’re asking me a question that’s making me very uncomfortable, because I don’t in the sense that I’m not. Not. You know, it’s about talking about myself. And I don’t know. I don’t. One thing that I have been told is I am very irritating and annoying. Right. So. So I will if I want to speak to somebody and just that I’ve read about, I will wait and I will just say, listen, I really enjoyed reading this because I need to tell them that you have. Put something in me that’s made me think, Oh shit, I could do something different, but I want to tell them that. And I think that has maybe potentially helped me. For example, a good friend of mine now, his name’s Pat Allen. He’s one of the almost periodontist in soft tissue, and he’s in his late seventies now. And I met him at Boston at a conference in Boston. And again, there’s loads of other people I can mention that I built relationships from that as well. And, and it was hilarious. So he says to me, because, you know, obviously the Americans struggle, realising that some people might have a good English accent because of this interview.

[01:01:56] Right. He says ask him a question and he says to me, your English is very good. And I and I said to him. That’s because I’m English. And. And he was he was a bit embarrassed by that. So then he answered the question to my friend, who’s who’s from? His name is Haitham Al Rafi, who’s again? Another exceptional periodontist in London, once amazing para courses called Perry Academy, because obviously Pat was embarrassed about what he said to me. He then asked the question to to Hatem. And I’m there going. Well, I’m right here and it was hilarious. But then we became friends from that point, you know what I mean? And and again, he’s coming to lecture at the next year, and and I built a really good relationship with his wife and stuff. So he’s now suddenly know he’s there. And he and he again introduces me to people and he’ll throw my name around. But maybe because I’m a bit annoying and can be frustrating, but persistent.

[01:02:51] Persistent.

[01:02:52] Yeah, but I am persistent. But I’m also a lot of academics don’t find me competitive with them. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yes. I’ve noticed that once some academics are talking to each other and you can see there’s a guard up and I’m going, I’ve spoken to you privately, I’ve spoken to you privately, and you two are not talking the same way you do to me. And it’s hilarious. But yeah, you know, and maybe that is, is why I can have a bigger network of people because I just want to learn I am not competing with them. I don’t know the answer, to be honest.

[01:03:30] Okay. I think I think you’re very humble for somebody who’s in your position. That’s that’s very clear to me, not just in today’s conversation, but the conversations that we’ve had in the past. But moving on from there, when did practise ownership come about? When did you start working in in your own year?

[01:03:48] Ten years ago, I thought, right, well, I need to stop and just stop a squat. So I just found a little one surgery practise in the city centre and it was a dental practise before and it never did well because there was no passing track. So we’re literally in the middle of where there’s nobody walks past. It’s just off the back of the mailbox and I just sat there. So it’s just got one surgery, another room, which was a dental surgery, which I switched over and it became a CT scanning room. And we have a receptionist and a nurse, that’s it. And for months I sat there twiddling my thumb. I would go out to dentists and do lunch and learn and send newsletters out or lecture to them, free, KPD, all this sort of stuff. And I would write articles in the dental magazines and publish peer review journals, all that sort of stuff. But that sort of helped me build a small reputation and and obviously running a practise is something that I never wanted to do ever, because I saw the stress behind it. I thought, I can’t be bothered with this. It’s been it’s been a really good learning exercise for me. I don’t want to take over the world because I only have to stop.

[01:04:57] And what is lovely about it is they’re very protective and they, you know, we are a team together. If I’m doing something wrong, they will tell me off which is which is so much nicer. And so I’ve enjoyed that aspect of it and just having that autonomy and what I’ve learnt now is that I love what I do, and if I could do it 24 hours a day, seven days a week, I would. But my staff caught me, asked, you know what I mean? But you know, and this is one of the reasons why I contacted you, because I saw your stuff on Facebook and I thought and the best bit was I knew Kailash Solanki, right? Yes. Your name is Solanki. I did not realise the two of you are the same and I’d be contacting you, you know, because of what you were showing on, on Facebook. And I love the stuff you were posting. And I thought, this guy is smart and focussed and has a really great balance in his life. And I thought, you know, I’d like that. And that’s why I contacted you and that’s how we became. But then, then somehow I’ll be talking about your brother and you’re like, Well, actually, he’s my brother. I’m like, Whoa!

[01:06:00] So connected that I remember that moment.

[01:06:03] I know I you don’t look in my mind. You don’t look the same.

[01:06:09] We don’t look like each other. I’ve not got his funky hairdo. We’re like chalk and cheese and very similar in this in the same.

[01:06:15] And that’s what’s nice isn’t it. And I think that’s lovely. Yeah. And that’s why the two of you work so well together. And it’s the same again with you, my brother. You and your brother. Your brother and I, Kailash and I, we are the same. We’re chalk and cheese. And I think that’s why we work so well and we can be good friends. But that’s why I contacted you, because I thought, you know, I’m obviously not doing it right and I know I can still do better. But the problem I have is I am the problem because it’s letting go of that control, you know. And yes, I could expect, you know, and yes, I could get more people. I mean, I have 144 five Google reviews and I would be so upset if someone walked up and ruin that, you know, my insecurity, I’ll be sitting in a corner crying, rocking, like, you know, like, like really in a zoo, you know what I mean?

[01:07:03] Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, you’ve created that whole, that environment around you, right? And you’ve realised that you don’t want the additional stress of multiple associates or all the rest of it and you’re in control of that. Right. And you can go on holiday whenever you want and whatnot. And that’s, and that’s cool. And it’s all about you. And and there’s nothing there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.

[01:07:29] It’s like you just said. Also say to me, like before lockdown, they said, you spend ten weeks out of the out of the out of the clinic. And I’m like, well, it doesn’t feel like I spend ten weeks the most lecturing board, whatever it is, and the few holidays that might have gone on. And then when obviously when lockdown came along after lockdown, because I’ve not gone anywhere because you realise you’ve turned over this much and I’m like, What? And it’s like, I don’t understand why, because you never, you’re here, you know? And it’s like, Oh yeah.

[01:07:57] And you know, all of that comes down to, well, what you want out of life, right? The balance like, does turning over a significant number mean anything to you? Right. Is it important to you? Does your lifestyle allow you to sustain something that’s a lower level of income than than you could ever possibly spend anyway? And it’s all relative, mate. And, you know, you talked about like growth, right? We were talking about and you said, I know it’s me that’s holding me back. Yeah, we’re all holding ourselves back. Right. You know, I’ve been asked to give a lecture on growth at the dentistry show and the. Oh, my opening line will be the reason why none of you were growing beyond where you want to grow is just look in the mirror. Take a selfie. Right. It’s you. Yeah. We all have our self limiting beliefs or whatever. Right. And that’s what holds us back. But it’s okay.

[01:08:49] Yeah, you’re right. It is okay. And you’ve got it. And if you can accept it, that’s cool, right? But the problem is we all have this fear of missing out. And luckily I of course, I have this now, but it’s always based on something that’s really crappy and not important to my profession. Does that make sense? You know, be like, you know what, I’d love a PlayStation five, but you know, I’m not going to buy one yet. You know, that’s obvious. You know, I’d like some Lego and but I’m not going to buy it because it’s really expensive. But that’s what.

[01:09:18] I’m not going to buy it because someone’s going to send me a gift of Lego anyway, so.

[01:09:23] I can hope I can. But that one thing about Phil Green and David Cohen, because they used to use the guy called Chris Burrow and I don’t know Chris very, very well, but it essentially they used him to sort of develop the business. And and and Phil would take me to like a business lecture at the armoury in in Leeds and was Michael Gerber and he wrote a book called The E-Myth. Right. I remember you. I just mind is like 152 years old or whatever and still got enthusiasm. I don’t know how old is now if you’re still alive, but but essentially he was amazing. And there’s like a lot of people sitting in this room maybe, I don’t know, 800 people and a lot of them are dentists and they all want to get out. Right, or be able to do something different. But like you said, we all want we are our worst enemy. And and he was saying so he rocked up at the at the hotel. And and he was like, well, and he was listening to some of the conversation of some of the people around there that were saying, well, I can’t park my car here. And and then he was saying he thought about it. And then he was at the conference, he said, right. They talked about this park, people starting to park the car there. And he says, well, I could develop a business where I’ve got a little, little bicycle, you know, that folds away, put in to back someone’s back of their car.

[01:10:45] And I can then validate it off someplace else and park it someplace, right, then get back to the hotel so I can do this as a business. And then he was saying, he says, I’ll go to one hotel, say the Hilton is doing it even though they weren’t doing it and getting them all to do do this business. He was just making this business proposition and it was like that made sense. But then when we were talking about dentistry, he was saying, this is what you can do. And he goes and we said, You can’t do that. It just doesn’t work. And we’re the problem because we can’t see. And this is why someone like you comes into into play where you sort of sit from a distance and you go, well, actually, you’re the problem. It can be done. This is the way to do it. But we can’t see that. And I think and sorry, sorry about interrupting, but I think my issue also is that we have these dental business coaches and in my mind, I don’t like dental business coaches because you’re still a dentist, you still have the same attitude, you know what I mean? It needs to be coming from another aspect, whereas completely remote from our business.

[01:11:48] What I’ll say about that is that you know how you’ve got yourself limited in belief, and my clients have their own self-limiting beliefs and I help them through that journey. Right. I have my own self-limiting beliefs as well. Yeah. I’m not this, you know, this this guy who’s got all the answers, right.

[01:12:06] And I look at you, I’ll be able to pick holes in you. Oh.

[01:12:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tear shreds.

[01:12:11] In you. Exactly. Because we it’s a different and different entity isn’t it. But yeah.

[01:12:16] Yeah. When you’re in it it’s hard to see from that, from that bird’s eye view. Right. So I have coaches as well. Right. Because, because I need that right and so on and so forth. But going back to going back to you, so now practise owner and then the other aspect of your of your life is teaching. I one of the, one of the pieces of content that I do see out there a lot is, you know, you’re in Newcastle, you’re in London, you’re in, you know, you’re all over the place speaking, lecturing, teaching and whatnot. How did that first come about?

[01:12:51] Again, it actually tell me how that came about. So there’s a guy called Paul Tipton and everybody knows who I know Paul. So I went for a job interview for him because I was looking for work when I moved to Birmingham and it just so happened that it didn’t work out. But he always thought, okay, now he had my name and then he said, Right, he’s running these an education course and he would love me to lecture on it. So I talked about perio and aesthetic perio and and actually doing like a whole day course that I did have like, I don’t know, ten, maybe, maybe 15 years, actually, a long time. And I would let journeyman yeah, maybe a thousand dentists, right. And I loved it. You know, I really enjoy it and, and I, and I built it from that. And obviously the stuff that Ian Chappell would then get me to do, lecture at the university and then companies that ask me to get involved and all this sort of stuff because. Is why you think becoming a specialist is important really is because that you’re going to do part of the job is that you need to be lecturing and and essentially that’s just because you’re, you’re selling yourself to get referrals, aren’t you?

[01:14:00] Of course.

[01:14:01] So yeah, that, that that’s, that’s where it went from. And I don’t, I don’t do the lecturing capacity anymore because I just, I, I like it. But I was thinking it’s time for a change, you know? And what’s been happening over the some years is that people have been saying you need to run your own courses and I’m just really bit lazy or there’s not all the truth is I’m insecure because I think if I go and post on Facebook or whatever that I’m running a course, please come to my birthday party, all that sort of stuff, and nobody’s going to be coming, do you know what I mean? So that does play my mind massively so. But a good friend of mine here in Birmingham, Birmingham, called Zubair Sakhrani, he’s you know, he’s a he’s a really exceptional individual and just gives me good advice. And he’s said to me, look, let’s just run a course, you know, let me do all the hard work and we can. And I’m like, okay, you know what? Let’s just do this. So the plan is going forwards in the next year. We want to prepare courses for hygienists, therapists as well as dentists, and it’s going to be based very much on a practical way of looking at it.

[01:15:10] And yeah, we can talk about the academic side of stuff, but the way I look at it, whenever I teach any hands on or lecture, I always say, Look, if I can do it, anybody can. That’s all I want. I want I want everybody to know that because you know. You can do it. And I think I hate when you go to a conference or lecture and they set so high and I’m like, well, show me your face know, because I can see through those those those holes, you know. And then it almost makes the point, well, you know what? They’ve achieved this high. I can’t do it. And it makes then it makes clinicians around them thinking, actually, you know, I’m just going to sit in my own room, do nothing. And I don’t think that’s right. You know, yeah, I want the profession to know that they can do better and be better every day and their patients will benefit. That’s the most important thing for me.

[01:16:01] Amit, speaking of failures, what’s your biggest clinical mistake?

[01:16:07] Not getting not knowing the truth. Language of brothers.

[01:16:13] That’s not clinical, mate. Come on. And I’m sure there’s been a few, right? As with anyone with your level of experience. Right. But what’s been the biggest heart sinking moment where you just thought, shit?

[01:16:27] Okay. So there’s a lovely woman called Tracey. Right. And. Actually it will come back to that before that. The one that really bothered me the most and still does is when I was working as a dentist, I had a patient who came along. And back then we didn’t understand about bisphosphonates or bisphosphonates that are a drug that’s used in cancer treatments and also helps with osteoporosis because it reduces the activity of the osteoclasts cells. So then you get less, less bone destruction and you get more bone building because the osteoblasts. But essentially as a result of that, because you’ve got necrotic bits of bone in the within, the within the bone itself, the US can’t actually do it so it can’t eat it away. And then you get osteoblasts plastic cells, building more bone around it and you get this osteoporosis form that goes to science lecture. But you knew that.

[01:17:29] But yeah, I used to do you know what? I used to get confused between osteoblasts and osteoblasts. And my way of remembering it back then was the osteoblasts blast a load of bone out and make more bone, and then the clasps do the other bit. And that was my favourite. So, so when you were saying that it actually brought a smile to my face mate because it brought those, those memories back.

[01:17:56] Yeah. Yeah too and stuff. But yeah but he was, he was, he was, he was having this sort of bisphosphonate treatment because he had some sort of cancer in the past and then he needed these teeth taken out in the lower, lower, lower pre molars, lower left molars. And because of loose I took them out and I and back then none of us knew about it. So I took him out and it never healed. It was always necrotic and I did not know what to do. So I was always drawing the bone away, stitching it up, and it would never heal. And that was one thing. I always felt bad for this man because I just put him through this pain for year after year because of me. That was I always remember that. But one of my clinical and that was a clinical mistake based on lack of knowledge or lack of knowledge of the science in the profession to let us know these are this is a consequence. This is back in 2000. Yeah, this is back in 2000. It was in 2000 actually. Right. He hasn’t won the one of my cases that I’ve completely messed up here and I’ve learnt so much from, it’s a woman called Tracy, so and she’s just very lovely, friendly woman in her fifties and I’ve got beautiful smile and she’s got left one which needed removing and an implant placing. And I just looked at the space. I go, Yeah, I can remove it, but I didn’t. I just forgot to look at other aspects. And because essentially she had short clinical crowns, right? And when you take the tooth out, the body will then resolve back to where the clinical crown should be.

[01:19:30] So suddenly you’ve got a gap which is much higher. And I placed the implant thinking it’d be fine and the tooth was long and she didn’t like that. And then we’re now in a position where I was now going backwards and thinking, Alright, actually we need to crown lengthen all the other teeth when that wasn’t an issue for her. Right. And I was trying to all this sort of fancy reconstruction or soft tissue and it was just getting worse and worse. And then she brought a husband in. And I knew I was in trouble. And he’s and he’s a lovely guy. His name is Dave. And I would say. And all I did was I just said, look, I’m really sorry. It’s not going to plan. Right. And I think as a profession, you know, we’ve got defence unions. When I was when I was younger, they would say, you just don’t apologise because you’re admitting liability. And I think you have to learn to say, look, I’m really sorry. And then the whole situation was calm, you know, and I and I said to I said to Dave and Tracy, look, I’ll do whatever it needs to be done. It needs to be done to get this right. And they were much, much happier about the situation. And I said, you’ve got nothing to worry about costs because that’s not going to be part of the equation ever.

[01:20:36] Right. Because at that point, this patient is yours for life. I’m going to do whatever needs to be done to fix it. And luckily, I then contacted another friend of mine, David Gonzalez, in Spain, and I said, Well, what would you suggest we do here? And then we came up with a solution. And after like about two years of doing lots of other fancy stuff and she’s just over the moon, and she then on the last day of the treatment, she brought me these two lovely ties. You know, she didn’t have to. She completely forgot. Mess it up. Right. And she goes, I’ve really missed. Come in here. And I said, Look, Tracy, you’ll have my mobile number. You can contact me. You can come and see me any time. She’s now my patient for life, right? And when I let you at events, I wear these ties. And if I do talk about failures, these are the ties that woman bought me, you know? So I think I messed up cases, and I don’t ever focus on the cases. I do well and my nurse and my research centre and say, look, you know, do you realise look at what you do? I can’t see that. I only focus on the worst ones where I’m, you know, and they’re the ones that eat at me and they’re the ones I don’t I’ll not sleep through the night because I’m thinking, crap, why did I make that mistake? You know, why should I? Why should I make that mistake? How could I have done it differently?

[01:21:47] And you don’t you dealt with it really well. You know, you took ownership of it. And like you say, you’ve got a friend, stroke, patient for life. Right. And a new tie.

[01:21:57] And it’s and this is something, you know, not all my patients have my number, you know, because I know there are dentists that that will give them the number. And I think that’s a stupid right. I gave my number to patients. When I do a complex case and I say, this number is for you, contact me. There’s a problem. And they will always say, you know, I trust, you know, it’s really kind of give me a number, I will not contact you and they never do, which is amazing. You know, and I think the problem of going back to social media with Instagram, there’s this line that’s now been crossed between what you are as a person and the patient can tap on your door any time and you respond back, whereas a mobile phone, they don’t have the access to it. And I think that line of professionalism is very, very massive and grey and it makes me uncomfortable when patients contact you directly. But can you do this for me? Can you do that? But I can see the benefits if you’re trying to develop patients.

[01:22:54] Double edged sword, isn’t it? It really is. It really is a double edged sword. And you can see the huge benefits of it and also the fact that, you know, someone can DM you on Instagram and say, hey, do you know what I mean? And then and then they expect a response because they see you’ve read it right. And, you know, it connects you openly in that way. I see that and I see a see see the negative side of things.

[01:23:18] And I also think, you know, because obviously the iPhone has made things different. They that’s changing because before you would respond to an email because you would do it at home. Right. And there was no rush. But now because you don’t respond to it straight away, they think you’re being rude. Well, actually, I have a life. I’m doing other stuff. Let me respond back to you in a much better way after I thought about it. But it’s it’s and it’s the same thing with and I do find this restraint because I get a lot of young dentists asking me for advice and and I’m happy to do that. It’s not an issue, but it’s like, well, why don’t you actually contact me and actually call me? But instead they’ll send me a voice message and I have to sit and listen to this conversation. Right. And it’s like, you don’t want to listen to what I have to say, but you’re talking at me, you know, like what? The point where I could just we can have a conversation and just like now we can break it up, break it down, you know, figure out where where they want to go. It is interesting.

[01:24:19] Really interesting.

[01:24:20] I don’t know the answer, but I mean, recently it’s interesting that I spoke to someone and this new generation of young people that are coming out of dental school and they are now starting to follow Instagram dentists based on their clinical work. Okay, now that I was when I heard that, I just thought, that’s what you should be doing. You should be saying, right, this is what I want to emulate myself, not based on trying to look like a Z list celebrity and. From Love Island or whatever, whatever TV show it is, reality TV show where you’re trying to be something to someone so that you can then get patients through the door. Whereas it should be based on, well, this is the outcomes I can do. This is what my patient comes in with and this is what I can do for you. And that’s the way I think is that you’re an advertisement. You’re not trying to. Then the patient is not your friend because you fuck it up. They will sue the shit out of you. Doesn’t matter what fake relationship you have. The relationships I’ve got with my patients is a different situation because I can fix it. And I know enough people that will help me. And I will pay whatever needs to be done. But. There is that that balance. It’s it’s it’s not real friendship.

[01:25:41] Yeah. It’s interesting what you say. And I think, you know, some people might be listening to this thinking you’re an old fuddy duddy.

[01:25:48] I am and I am.

[01:25:50] And, you know, and I understand that part. And I totally resonate with what you’re saying right now. And, you know, when when dentists and dentists are looking at and saying, I want to be a better dentist, I want to be a better clinician. I want to learn how to move my hands in this patient’s mouth to get the best outcome right, whatever the black boxes happens in between. And then there’s others that want to emulate what you mentioned before, because they’re more interested in turning a business, making money, attracting patients. Do they have the clinical skill set to deliver what it is they’re promising? I have no place to comment on that. Yeah, because I’m not I’m not a clinician. And, you know, we can look at this on an individual basis. I’m sure others can comment on that. You know, I’m in no position to comment. But, you know, if you look at long term, you know, where where’s your dentistry go in in 15 years? Where’s your dentist should go in in 20 years time. How long does your dentistry last. Yeah, you know, am I going to do the Treacy on somebody else. Yeah. Because, because I don’t have that knowledge or the bisphosphonates thing. Right. There’s a very strong argument that get that solid grounding underneath you before you start pushing that out. But I see both sides of it.

[01:27:03] I mean, you’re right, I’m an old fart, but I’m also looking at it in a way that there’s a longevity to your career. Right. And I think people are forgetting it because I have a meeting yesterday and. People wanting things now is because of the of iPhones and everything be much more Amazon. This doesn’t happen in dentistry. It just cannot be. And if so, what is it? They say there’s three things in it. You can. Is it cheap? Can I get it done quickly and will it last? Did those three things work together? They don’t, do they? Yeah. Yeah. That’s the direction we’ve gone into haven’t we. Yes. Right. And then when it goes wrong, who they’re blaming. Right. Because we live in a society, especially here in the UK. You know, you and I know patients will buy new iPhones every year. Yeah. Unless they can’t afford it. Or they’ll. They’ll buy a new car every year in finance or they’ll buy a new TV because there’s a new whatever, whatever rubbish it is. Right. But yet when they’ve spent tens of thousand pounds on their veneers or whatever it is, they expect it to last. But it’s because they don’t understand. They don’t value what we do and understand that this is you know, it’s got a longevity. Does that make sense? And it takes time. It’s a skill set. And you’ve got to take your time. It’s like building a house. You can’t build it like tomorrow, you know, and you educate the population. And and that is an issue. But then dentists have gone down that path. Okay, let’s chase the money, which is fine. It’s not an issue. But then realise I don’t know what I’m trying to say, but it’s, it’s, it’s frustrating because the longevity, you’ve got to enjoy the, the job and you will just, you will reap the rewards promise you. And you know, I mean ten years ago I was making £35,000 a year. I’m a specialist, but I didn’t really care because I was loving the job. Now it’s a very different situation because it’s you know.

[01:29:02] What you say about longevity there resonates with what you know, some of the teachings that I’ve sat in on lectures given by TIFF. Qureshi Right. And he he talks about and documents cases that he did 15 years ago, the mistakes he made, how this stuff is lasting. Right. And he speaks to patients about something called the replacement event.

[01:29:23] Okay.

[01:29:24] And so when he places something on a patient’s tooth, he’ll educate them on how long that’s likely to last, when it’s going to need replacing and what the likely cost of that replacement is. And I think a lot of clinicians, from my experience and speaking to them, they they talk about the event as in slap in whatever it is in their mouth. Right. And I mean, that would a bit a bit bit more respect than, say, slapping, right? But but putting a restoration in their mouth or whatever. But they don’t really educate them on what you’re going to have to come back in five years time. And and you’ll need a new bridge or you’ll need a new this. And if you if you grind your teeth, these ain’t going to last for 12 months. You’ve got to wear this splint or whatever. Right. And there’s less of that that goes on. And so what you’ve just said is it really does remind me of.

[01:30:13] The one thing I mean, I see I did not know of Qureshi until Facebook, but I think I might have heard of him. I read his articles in some of the magazines, but I’ve never met him. And and yet I know if I do meet him, I would get on with him because I just think, you know, he’s looking out the patient’s best interests and also learning from his mistakes. And just the work is doing is exceptional. And this is and I’m not belittling what he’s doing, but essentially it’s relatively simple work, you know, but which has massive benefits to the patient, you know, not just with, you know, with the aesthetics, but also with regards to the tooth wear and all that sort of stuff that occurs with it. And and I think this is the stuff that maybe they’re not teaching at university to a certain extent. Maybe it could be as simple as that, you know, I don’t know. But you’re right, this the education part of it is an issue. I mean, we had this meeting again yesterday and we as dentists, struggle to talk about money, maybe less so now, but we still talk about money. And, you know, maybe we should be taught that universe to say, you know what, this is what the things cost on the NHS. These are what the costs would be for the lab. And this you understand about the business aspect because now associates are coming, well, you should pay me this much, but they’re not understanding the repercussions of the principle of they know and I think they should be taught these things and then maybe taught the benefits of private therapy that can be done and what is available in the NHS.

[01:31:48] And I think and then they’re thrown in the big wide world and they’ve got someone like a principal try to teach him that and they can’t always fully grasp it. I mean, going back to your brother Kailash, you know, he’s he’s very, very good at explaining all this stuff to his associates. And he does that. He does his own private scheme. And I thought that was an amazing idea where he’s training up somebody to work in a private setting. And when I heard that, I just thought, why don’t other people do that? It just makes sense, you know, you know, he’s been trained to be an NHS dentist because you get the NHS number, but the NHS is good, but patients want more, you know, but we need to be able to deliver that. But to do it well with the skill set that we have developed for longevity. Then the patients value what you’ve done and they have to understand why it costs them. I mean, you’ve explained that, haven’t you, to me before, where you sort of you how many times did we always apologise, know to a patient, oh, he’s going to cost 600 quid. Is that okay? That’s an apology. You know, this is going to be. No, it’s not okay. That same patient will go from buy £100,000 car. They don’t quibble when they pay them.

[01:33:02] Though. And the car dealer doesn’t turn around and say, is that okay? Or your lady in Sainsbury’s who’s selling you a banana doesn’t say that’s $0.23. Is that.

[01:33:12] Okay? No, but we do all these. And I say this as well. I mean, I’ve heard this. I think I think I’ve heard it from you or from Ashley Latta or whoever. But essentially, you know, you’re going to do a composite filling and it’s 300 quid and then, you know, 20 quid and then you sort of thinking might well, it doesn’t take that long. And it’s going to be and I know the patient has got so much money and I’m going to now charge them on a quid.

[01:33:37] And actually, Ashley talks about that a lot.

[01:33:40] Then you say you found a quid and then the thing is he says, fine, you can say that, right? Do we ever say it’s discounted? But we never say that. But you say, look, you know what? Normally we charge £200, but I’m going to do it for £100. How does that sound? And the way you say it, how does that sound? Because that actually sounds really great, doesn’t it? Yeah, the patient will then know it and you see a same thing. One of the things I struggle here in Birmingham is that it’s obviously very cultural and stuff and I get certain groups of people coming in and they’ll I say it’s going to cost £30,000 for these implants. They come back, say, do for me for ten. Right? So and you know where I’m coming from, right? I love that when they say that. And and I’m going, okay. Now, the thing is, I’ve met many dentists in this city or in the UK that have done it for ten. That patient was the patient’s expectation of the cost really should be 30. Right. So when it goes wrong they will blame you because it should be better just because you’ve got it for ten. Meaning they’ve got a bargain. It’s wrong. So I and I have had to fix so many dentists work, patient, dentist, work for the case that they’ve undercharged. And I’m then charging the patient, the dentist, the real fee.

[01:34:58] And so on. Right.

[01:34:59] Yeah. Well, you know, we all make this mistake, but it’s like, you know, if a patient is arguing with you, I’m not going to they’re going to break you when it goes wrong. And I’ve learnt that and I’m like, I don’t. He said, one woman come and see me and I’ll always remember this very wealthy woman. And she said to me, Oh, I’ve been told I need a gum graft around this implant in the lower right six. And I’m like, well yeah, I can do it. But then I wasn’t charging a lot of money and it was going to be £400. Right. And she drives him with this very expensive car outside. And she’s busy saying to me, Oh, that’s too expensive. And I’m looking at it and and I’m not backing down. And she’s saying, Well, I said, I’d rather not do anything. And she says to me, Well, it sounds like you do it for free. And I said, No. And I said, I’m the only one in the West Midlands that can do this, and you don’t want to irritate me any further. And she was well aware of that. Never. I never seen it. But then I turned around and I said, So what’s your son do? And she goes, Oh, he’s a lawyer. I said, Oh, that’s really good. Yeah. And I said, So what would you feel if your son had to reduce his fees? She said, Nothing, you know, and that was it. But I think you have to have that confidence to tell people, fuck off.

[01:36:12] Yeah, no. Yeah. In a roundabout way.

[01:36:16] Yeah.

[01:36:17] Absolutely. Absolutely. Let’s move on to the Association of Dental Implant ology. Right. Because, you know, we’ve been chatting for about an hour and a half, mate. And if if if we’d just sort of said, right, we’re speaking to we speak we’re speaking to the president of the ADA. Yeah. I don’t think the conversation would have been as candid as it’s been now. And and I think I think, you know, you’re probably different to all the past presidents for sure. Yeah. Tell me about that. How did it come about? How did you become president? Why did you want to become president? And what what does it involve?

[01:36:53] Okay. So I was in Scotland treating a patient for a guy called Atiq Rahman. So he asked me, he said, I’ve got a case and I really would love you to do the gum graft in this patient or whatever it was. It was, you know, went well. And then I got a phone, I got a text message from somebody on the committee and they were saying, Oh, we would love you to be on the committee. And this is about six years ago, I think. And I’m like so I sent a message back saying, Can I just tell you something? I’m not very much liked within the profession. I don’t think they’d want me on the committee because I say what I say, you know, I’m not very political. And they were like, Oh, no, don’t worry about it. They’ve all decided that they would like you on. But I’m like, All right, fine. And I wasn’t even a member of the Adeyeye, right? Because one of the reasons why I wasn’t a member of the Adeyeye is because the way I was trained at guys, which is which is a real pity now when you think about it, because if you weren’t a specialist, then you shouldn’t be placing implants or you shouldn’t be part of the society. The Adeyeye was an organisation that was set up by general dental practitioners who were placing implants so they could then have a network of discussing cases and stuff, which I think is a really good, you know, really good.

[01:38:06] But then they were like, Well, you don’t need to be a member of that. You need to do other stuff. So I would I always just kept my distance because of that little seed being planted in mud. And I used to go to events abroad because it was bigger events anyway. So I then turn up at this committee meeting and I had to become a member because obviously if you’re going to be on the committee, has to be a member. And it was really interesting because there was a group of people that they were enthusiastic and they were doing doing it in most part for the benefit of the profession. Obviously, there are individuals that are on their decline, whatever political or whatever rubbish they think they’re going to get from it. Because in my mind, you know, do you remember who the president was last year or the year before? You won’t remember because the names disappear. Who knows, right? It’s just if you can make a difference in my mind, I think that would be amazing. So. So, yeah. And I was and from that, I mean, I met some really good friends. I mean, there’s a friend of mine called Pinata George and he’s this exceptional implant that does dogmatic implants, and he’s pushing the whole fallout stuff in a completely different way, which is much more predictable.

[01:39:14] And he’s making a big difference. So and then another guy called Paul Champagne and a guy called George Margaritas. All of these individuals I’ve been able to I wouldn’t have met if I wasn’t part of that committee. And obviously, there are people that I’m, you know, and that research and that stuff. So that was good. And then I started to understand the whole politics of it all a little bit. And then it came in that first two years, they sort of said, Alright, we need to vote, we need, we need to have an election to see who’s going to be the next president. So my name got put forward, right? And what was interesting about that was and it was lovely that my name was and I’m like, okay, I’ll be happy to do it because I’ll give it a go. Never done it. Yeah, never been, never been el presidente of anything really. And I do call myself anti because yes I do take it seriously, but I’ve also got to do my own thing of course. And, and essentially when, when I was trying to get votes, I was, I was speaking to some of the people on the committee and they were saying, we don’t want a specialist in Perio to be the president because that is wrong.

[01:40:22] And I was like, I couldn’t understand that because Perio is very important, is very much a period orientated think thing without a doubt. You know, all of the treatments, all of the technologies that are involved in periodontitis is based on implants as well. So it just they they’re so side by side, the brother and sister without any hesitation. So, you know, I had half of the group saying no. I said, okay, no problems, you know. And then when it came to the vote, I was up against someone and I beat him by two votes. But but what was interesting was the email that came because his name in the alphabet was before mine. So I just thought he’d won automatically because I didn’t bother reading the rest of the email. Right? So I’m going to carry on. And then I got this text message for some people in the committee going, Oh, congratulations. I’m like, For what I’ve got, I’m not one because I was guaranteed to lose against this individual who had had been president of other societies and stuff because they felt that, you know, he had more experience and but it was hilarious. I’m like, Oh, then I read the email, oh my God, I did win.

[01:41:29] So it was hilarious. But so that was, that was very pleasant because as an implant society, to have a periodontist, hopefully running it for a couple of years and pushing it in a particular direction will give a different impetus to it. You know, we’re getting more hygienists and therapists who are now like, well, you know what? Maybe they have something that the AGI might have something to give them. Course and and we’re getting more periodontist there are training wanted to join the society which has been really lovely and my aim for that for the society which which isn’t going to happen and it’s because of the pandemic things have slowed things down in a particular way was to make it much more of an international organisation. Normally we get about 800 to 1000 people attend the conference every two years and no other implant societies in Europe will get three and a half 5000 people attending an event called CEPA in Spain 12 years ago. They only had 400 people attend. Now it’s like one of the it’s got four, five, 6000 people attending. So and that’s run every year. So I’m I’m not saying I want to emulate them, but I would love to go in that direction. And it’s a that’s a reorganisation, you know, it’s not implant organisation, but obviously we’re running cyber sites so there’s lots of amazing speakers of that.

[01:42:54] So that’s what I want and, and I really want more young people to be involved. So because it is very much a society full of a certain group of individuals and they’ll be retiring in the next five, ten years. So what will we have as a membership? You know, and right now what I’ve learnt is that when I lecture for some of these implant courses like there’s a, there’s a course called Smile Academy run by Ginn and a guy called Kish. Yeah. You know, you look at them, they’re, they, they, they, they are technically young with the way they look, but they’re not, they’re obviously much more older, but they have a different outlook on stuff. And the people that are on that course, you know, have been attracted to them for one for a reason, whichever reason it is. And maybe societies need to change in that direction to because they all have their WhatsApp groups that they can discuss cases. So they have got their own network. But why are they not wanting to be part of a society to have another network to to do you know what I mean? So I think all societies need to adapt and not be very much an old boys club, you know.

[01:44:01] To attract that younger generation of dentists.

[01:44:05] And and, you know, and some of them, you know, like there’s a guy called Git and he’s Jim’s brother and he’s an exceptional clinician and there’s a guy called Viraj Patel. He’s future is amazing. I mean, I was invited to lecture for Guy like, I don’t know, September, October, October. And essentially it was going to be me. Right. And a mate of mine, Julia Russell. Really, the two of us are going to let you the whole day on soft tissue and implant stuff. But then Guy said to me, would you do you think we should have another person? And I’m like, Do you know what? You should invite Viraj Patel right now. This is an individual that hasn’t had an opportunity to do that sort of thing, but he’s talented now. When I was younger, how many people would have actually put my name forward to lecture on the same stage? They want to be doing it themselves. Does that make sense? And I think those opportunities have to be now given to some of these individuals because my day has come and gone. Do you know what I mean? I’ll be running courses locally here, but these individuals need to need to inspire the new, new generation of implant dentists. And I think this is where the addy should have a role and get them involved.

[01:45:15] I mean, I run I organised a masterclass in March and we only had like 150 people attend. That’s nothing. We had the full best for the most exceptional individuals around the world attend. Right. A guy called Luke Stoller, we had David Gonzalez, we had a professor from Sweden called Christa Darling. We had a mate of mine from Brazil called Paolo Paolo Paolo Mesquita. And he came over and these guys usually lecture to thousands of people. And the reason why I wanted them to lecture, because they were telling the whole story about guided bone regeneration and implants and what could be achieved. And these are individuals that have inspired me to try to want to be better. And I think, you know, and I wanted more young people to attend and we did. And and I wanted them to realise that you can do more and be better and be more like these individuals if you can aim, you know what I mean? So and I think that’s what we have to do as a society. But so the plan now is that I’m going to try to organise. I’ve already contacted the old dental schools. I’m going to be getting representatives from the dental schools to be part of the society, will have two people from each dental school.

[01:46:27] And I’ve got to now communicate with the deans and ask them, could you give them days off next year? Because we have a conference next May that’s going to be in Birmingham and get them to be part of that event. And then on the Saturday we’re going to it’s been a many, many, many years before we’ve we’ve got students event organised. So I’m going to, I’m going to organise a student event on the Saturday so all undergrads will rock up at. This thing. And the plan is I’m going to get a good friend of mine called Anthony Budowsky, who runs an exceptional employment practise and is very smart. Talks about the purple cow and business. Oh, yeah, yeah. He’s a he’s a smart cookie and a good friend of mine. Again, another guy called Bill Schafer, who I skydive with, and he runs another very good practise. But again, both their journeys have been different. I’m going to get a friend of mine called Fiona McKillop and she’s a specialist in parallel, works for Android down on the street and her story’s different. So I don’t want it to be too heavily male orientated. I want to be able to have women there to at least talk about their journey.

[01:47:31] And I’m going to get a couple of young guys, a guy Laffan, and talk about his journey. I’m going to invite and invite Sascha Melman also because he can do Instagram and stuff because they want to. Yeah, but I want to be able to talk about all these different journeys. On how they became implant dentists. Then they can be students can sit there, you know what? I can potentially do this, you know, and then they’ll be able to come to the main event on the Saturday afternoon and hear two of the best speakers and clinicians. Again, Ricardo Kearns, talented, amazing and, and friend of my uncle Ramon Gomez from Portugal. So talented. So they’ll be able to say, look, you see them on Instagram and Facebook, but essentially they’re all well published, but they show beautiful aesthetic work. So I’m really looking forward to that next year. But this, this, this month we have a conference in Manchester which is run it was supposed to be postponed from last year because of the whole pandemic situation. The past president, Emma, obviously hasn’t had the best run of it all because she’s not been able to implement things that she would like to have. So the conference is running this and we’re hoping that it will be a big success.

[01:48:48] And of May, right? Was it 27? 28.

[01:48:51] Yeah. You lecturing there, aren’t you?

[01:48:52] I’m speaking. Yeah, you invited me. So you’ll be the reason why I’ll be experiencing some sort of anxiety.

[01:49:02] Maybe I’ll just come from you. I go that irritating you, you be like, Yes, yeah. Excuse me. But yeah, I think. I don’t know. I think it’s not just the ADA. I think all societies need to learn to change to somehow get these younger people involved. And and I want these representatives of the universities hopefully push the society, and we’ll go and lecture at the events. And we’ve got some people on the committee that be willing to lecture at these universities. I mean, I’d be happy to do it. It’s not an issue to empower and give these students an informed decision, really. I mean, it’s it’s interesting going back to that. I mean, I’ve got I’ve met a couple of newly qualified specialists who contact me again. I’ve only become a periodontist because of you. And I’m like, and the responsibility of that is really annoying, right? But and I’m like, you should have told me, right? Because now, now I feel I own you, and I need you to do well, you know, really. And they sort of said, I heard you lecture and I realise this is and I’m thinking, really, I just talked about gum disease and this and the other, but who knows that they are going to be they are talented already, better than I was at that age. And I love that, you know, and and and I’m happy to say that they are better than I was at that age and they’re going to be even better, you know, which is so cool.

[01:50:29] Amit We’re getting towards the end of the time for this podcast. But, but, but, but I really want to talk about your skydiving mate. So tell me about like I’ve seen crazy videos of you jumping out of planes and you know, you’ve got, you’re showing me your parachute that you assemble, put together, pop this pin in. You were telling me if you you know.

[01:50:55] This and then the whole parachute pops out from there.

[01:50:58] Yeah, yeah. And there’s a tiny bit of string that connects you to the parachute and all the rest of it. I mean.

[01:51:04] I wouldn’t. This tiny bit of string. Yeah. How old you to the parachute? This is if I pull this out. Yeah. And I’ve told this away.

[01:51:15] Yeah.

[01:51:16] You’re dead and it’s gone. Yeah.

[01:51:20] And for those that haven’t got the benefit of seeing this parachute, it’s. It’s a it’s a, you know, it’s a piece of string that can’t be any thicker than a shoelace, that’s for sure. That’s holding you to this parachute. And then you’ve got the responsibility of assembling it after you’ve landed. And I can trust myself to do that. Absolutely no way. How did you how did you get into skydiving and jumping out of planes in the first place and why?

[01:51:46] I remember when I was younger and you just watched these people base jumping and you’d see, you know, obviously there was. What was that? What was that film called? With Keanu Reeves and. Yeah. Break, break, breakpoint or something like that. I can’t remember. Oh, I can’t remember. I dive in and I love to watch James Bond. You know, he’d pull a parachute, and then he would, you know, and he’d jump out of an aeroplane and pull the parachute much further down and base jumping, which is what I really wanted to do. I wanted to jump off buildings, and that’s what I really want to do ultimately. Right. But the problem is, I am scared of heights and I’m scared of heights of maybe about 15 feet, 20 feet. I get very, very unhappy about it. But I thought, you know what? That might help me get over my fear of jumping heights. So after I qualified, after after I found a degree and then went to the US and I learnt how to jump out of aeroplanes and within about two and a half days I was doing it all by myself. I was terrified. I mean, I’m there in the plane you’re holding on the door and there’s a man outside holding onto you and the man inside. And I’m going, No, no, because I didn’t want to jump out. It’s 12 and a half, 13,000 feet, and the guy is looking at the other guy. It goes right, dragging him out. And I’m there going, Oh, my God.

[01:53:06] So you do it, Tandem. Do you do it tandem to stop?

[01:53:08] No, no, you can if you want to. But I did something called accelerated freefall, where you just get thrown out of the plane and there’s two guys holding you, and then you just try to learn to fly, say, I mean, the whole concept of skydiving is if you have a ball. Yeah, always is this way and you turn it this way, you drop it. It’s always going to turn back on. It’s on its belly, isn’t it? Okay. So you’re always trying to fall. Would you belly down? Because then you’re going to have you’re going to fall correctly. But as soon as you start a dodge, yeah, what could potentially happen is you can then flick up back on your back, right. So there’s lots, it’s all clever stuff. So within about two and a half days, I was jumping out of planes by myself, which was shocking. And then and then I was just learning to fly this parachute, right? And then I went a year later, I did another I had 50 jumps by then and I bought parachute. So it was like nowadays they wouldn’t let you buy a parachute because that’s like a lethal weapon. You can kill yourself. Right? And I was just been jumping. I got like I took the 13 year break because it was expensive and I was doing my training and I had money. And so I’ve got maybe 300 jumps. I went away to Russia and I went to Russia for two weeks and I was jumping out of military helicopters. It was the coolest thing, you know, the doors open at the back of the helicopter and you just legging it out. And that was really cool. And I did about I did 86 jumps in ten days. So, you know, I do love it. I know, I know it’s sad. And now I’ve got back into I’m older, I’m a bit more fearful and my landings aren’t very good. So I’m trying to get training on how to land better and I’m getting better at it. But it’s only because I’m scared of heights, because you see, at a certain height, I’m getting scared.

[01:54:55] That you’ve jumped out of a plane 300 times or whatever you’ve just said you can’t be scared of heights anymore.

[01:55:00] Oh, yesterday I was in a practise in Harley Street at this meeting and we were quite high up and I couldn’t stand on the edge. It was so scary. And. And it was like leaning against his banister. I’m like, I just don’t. I didn’t want to be standing there. We came down one flight. I was like, Oh, this is easy. It was really weird.

[01:55:21] That’s bonkers.

[01:55:23] That is bonkers. But this is why I messed up with my landings because at about 20 feet, the parachute was coming at about 30 miles an hour. And it’s like getting this wrong, getting it wrong, but I’m getting a bit better. But I’ve got friends who are world champions and they are flying their parachute in at about 70 miles an hour, 80 miles an hour.

[01:55:42] And.

[01:55:42] Landing it. And it’s it’s amazing. I don’t think I’ll ever be there, but I love it. And now I’m doing a lot of wind tunnel flying. I’m flying in a wind tunnel and trying to learn how to.

[01:55:51] Do little tricks and stuff.

[01:55:54] It is cool. So I go every two Mondays a month. I drive down to Milton Keynes. Yes, 30 minutes in the winter. Wow. And like my mate, Bill Schaffer, he’s he’s a skydiver as well. And the long term plan is to get winged suits and go flying in a wingsuit across whatever we need to do. So before lockdown, they have a wind tunnel in Stockholm, which actually the wind is obviously coming horizontally and you can fly suits and you can do loads. It’s like you’re an aeroplane, you know what I mean? It’s so cool. And when I skydive. Yeah. It’s just so peaceful. You know, my brain, love. I don’t think about teeth. I don’t think about anything. I’m just having it. It’s just relaxing. But people say it’s an adrenaline rush. There isn’t really. Because now for me, it’s just the only time my adrenaline starts pumping is when I’m trying to land, because that’s where I’m scared.

[01:56:51] But once you jump out of this plane and then you’re you’re in the air, right? And then what are you just floating about for a bit? And then you pull the cord or what?

[01:57:01] This is all.

[01:57:02] This is all foreign to me, right? I’ve seen it on the on the movies and stuff. Right. But you literally jump out. Are you just bolting down now at that point.

[01:57:11] About 100. And so in about 120 on average. But I’ve done maybe 180 miles an hour when I’ve gone down with my head down and stuff, because then, you know, you’ve got less surface air and you are plummeting and you lose altitude very quickly and you’ve got these altimeters and you’ve got audible ultimate in your ear that’s telling you 10,000 feet, 9000 feet, and it’s going very quickly and you realise it’s cool. And then you’re also flying with a whole bunch of other people. So you can, you know, you can then come together and you sort of holding hands and all that sort of stuff. It’s pretty cool and you’ve.

[01:57:47] Got time to do all of that at 100 and odd miles an hour.

[01:57:51] Now you got loads that you don’t realise how much time you have. It’s about minute that just shoots past so slowly. You know, I remember one time I was, I was in Russia and I was, I was there’s a way you can you can fly and you can fly like you’re on the surface. You sit flying, right? Yeah. And so cool. And so I was above above the cloud and the sun was setting and above the cloud. The sun was just setting and it was beautiful. It was just stunning. And I always remember it. And then when I when I when I went beyond the cloud, then you saw that it was another different view. And it’s just, it’s it’s so peaceful and relaxing. Yeah. There is no adrenalin rush to me. It’s just like, Oh, this is cool. It’s fun going to go mess around and literally just playing in the air, you know? We’re just playing in the air.

[01:58:40] Yeah. I don’t think I’m scared. I have to do it. I’m scared of roller coasters. Me?

[01:58:45] Me, too. Me, too. Especially at the top. And then the rest of. It’s fun. Yeah. You can that as far as you can.

[01:58:55] Yeah, I’m no I’m no thrill seeker mate. But I know people who’ve sat in your Tesla and you’ve given, you’ve given them a run for their money. So I’ve yet to experience that. But they call you a crazy so-and-so and. But we’re coming to the end of this, this podcast. And, you know, before we started this podcast.

[01:59:16] Why would you want to do a tandem jump?

[01:59:19] No way, mate.

[01:59:21] So I’m going to put your name on the list because I’m going to organise a whole bunch of dentists that wanted to.

[01:59:25] You didn’t hear what I just said them, mate.

[01:59:26] No way. I’m a bit deaf in this. Hang on, let me try this one.

[01:59:30] No fucking way. Me. Not a chance, mate. Anyway.

[01:59:37] I mean, dentists that have said they want to do it.

[01:59:40] Really? Really.

[01:59:41] I’m going to organise it and I will organise it. But if you wanted it, it would be my pleasure. Thank you. I won’t go in it, but I’ve got Red Devils who’ll be happy to do it for you.

[01:59:51] Right. Anyway, moving on from that conversation, we when we started this podcast, I said that, you know, wouldn’t it be really nice if we could just record a conversation of me and you having dinner over a beer or something like that and just and just like and then we could speak more freely. I think we have been able to speak quite freely, actually. And I think, yeah, it’s been, it’s been a really good conversation.

[02:00:17] I’m fine, I’ve enjoyed it and I’ve learnt loads from you, you know.

[02:00:20] And I mean we usually end this podcast with a couple of a couple of questions and one of them is if it was your last day on the planet and you were surrounded by all your loved ones and you had to leave them with three pieces of wisdom, what would they be?

[02:00:40] I think. If you work hard, you will be successful. I think that’s the most important thing. And I think. It’s. I think distraction of stuff that’s not important is where you will you will just. You know, just not do well. Does that make sense? I don’t know. I am going down the social media path and I don’t. Yeah. So. Work hard, be successful. And then I think you have to have a good balance in your life, which I think a lot of us have struggled with.

[02:01:18] We all struggle with it.

[02:01:19] Yes. You know, work hard. Play hard. Yeah. You know, but that balance is really, really important because there’s going to be a point where you’re going to regret the stuff that you not had the opportunity to, you know, to have done because we’re we. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s the only. That’s too, isn’t it.

[02:01:38] Okay. So first piece of advice, put the graft in. Yeah. Put the graft.

[02:01:43] Only works with that doesn’t it. Yeah.

[02:01:45] Yeah. The second piece of advice have some balance in your life.

[02:01:50] Yeah. And it could be you find time just to spend time with your friends and family, you know, how often do we do all that? We try to make the effort, but it doesn’t really happen because they’re the ones that ground you, don’t they? Really?

[02:02:06] 100%. And they’re the ones that matter, right? They’re the ones that are going to turn up if you end up in hospital. They’re the ones who are going to be crying at your funeral. Right. Exactly. Not the 5000 followers you’ve got on Facebook.

[02:02:17] No. Exactly. Exactly. This is it. Yeah. And the third thing. And this is cheesy. Everybody says it. You know, you do the best you can and the next day do better, you know, because that’s the only way, because I think, you know, we’re all very competitive. But the person we’re not we have to compete with is ourselves. And I think, you know, I don’t want to be like Solanki. You know, I don’t want to be like whoever else, you know, because, you know, you know what I mean? But but the thing is, it’s a matter of trying to just do better every day and knowing that you’ve done better the next day. I think that’s I think that that for me is important because otherwise, how would you gauge. Yeah, you know where you are?

[02:03:08] Yeah, absolutely. Well, that’s really nice of it. And final question. Fantasy dinner party, three guests, dead or alive, who would they be?

[02:03:22] Good question. Charles Dickens. Mm hmm. Only reason why is that I’m a very I’m not a good reader of books, and I’ve read maybe ten books in my whole life because I’m the reader, because I read each word like this, and it’s a nightmare. So and so during lockdown, I bought I bought audibles. And I’ve been listening to such I want to listen to the classics, you know, and I’ve just started listening to Great Expectations and I think, oh my God, this man is an amazing author, you know? So, yeah. Charles Dickens. Dickens Yeah. I would like to add, like Elon Musk, it’s the truth, because I’d love to. Yeah, I’d love to meet him and just find out what is what is he really all about? You know what I mean? Yeah. And. I’d like Mark Hamill. Luke Skywalker.

[02:04:23] All right. Because you’re a Star Wars fan.

[02:04:26] I’d love to ask him all these questions about Star Wars and stuff. Yeah, I could ask Harrison Ford, but I’d rather not. I’d rather ask him because he is. Yeah. And he chose Elon Musk and Luke Skywalker.

[02:04:42] They’re amazing. I mean, it’s been an absolute pleasure. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation and I do feel like we could have expanded on so many more points and taken this conversation for half a day. So yeah, maybe maybe we’ll catch up at the dentistry show at the.

[02:05:00] U.s. on Saturday. I’ll come. I would love to sit there and listen to you. Yeah. Thank you. Amazing speaker.

[02:05:06] Thank you. Thank you very much.

[02:05:10] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

[02:05:26] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this file, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. If you did get some value.

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[02:05:42] Subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend.

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