From 10-12 November, dentistry’s great and good gathered at the International Conference Centre in Newport in Wales for the British Academy of Cosmetic Dentistry’s 18th annual conference.

This was our cue to catch up with old friends and hear from new voices, and we’ve captured the highlights for a BACD conference special.



In This Episode

00.57 –  Ali & Zoh

06.54 – Chris McConnell

16:18  – Dipesh Parmar

29.54 – Gina Vega

51.11 – Kailesh Solanki

Historically, we have been busy running our families, running all the part of our lives rather than the dentistry.

That’s the reason, isn’t it?

It is.

I think it’s partly that partly that there’s a second part that it’s almost like ladies are less likely to to put themselves up somehow. There’s a there’s a modesty or a like for a man to stand up and say, this is what I do and this is the size of my drill. It seems more natural than for some ladies.

Yes. Yes.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Silang.

So I’m with Alonzo. Two dentists. You would have seen their stuff on YouTube. Guys, it’s nice to have you at BC. Is this the first one you’ve done?

Yeah, this is. Yeah, the first. Definitely. Yeah. My first one is all coming to B.C.. I’ve been to a young student event before, but this is my first event. Yeah, that was the first one we ever went to together. First event we ever went to together as a young dentist. If you remember, it was like third and fourth year uni, maybe four years ago. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So what’s your reflection like now that you’ve been to the actual main conference? How do you feel about it? It’s a really.

Good fun, really enjoying it. Obviously the trade fair today, the course is yesterday.

Which one did you do?

Yesterday I did two biomimetic posterior composites and smile first in the afternoon. So, yeah, really, really interesting. Learn a lot. I remember when we went to the first BCD event back when we were students. No one else in our group Uni was mentioning this stuff and had gone and this was the first one that we actually went on. We went and it was a day of like amazing lectures and it was so revolutionary for us. And from then on I think that was the first one that kicked off all these events that we started going to, you know, the year after that we went to the London Dentistry, so Dentistry year, we were just constantly gagging for more. And I think.

I quite encouraged students to turn up and really smile over to watch. I mean, even if they don’t know, I don’t want them to pay to actually do the thing. But for me, if a student in their fourth year or something comes and watches that, it puts their career on another trajectory and they see what else is positive possible, you know.

I think the inspiration, like they become inspired by what dentists can actually do. Yeah, and because I imagine a lot of dental students, especially towards the final years, they get so bogged down with exams and revision and lecturers maybe being mean or supervisors being mean that they may even be put off from dentistry, but then come in to events like this or any event.

Really with the positivity of it.

The positivity of it, seeing how happy dentists are actually in person and, you know, communicating with one another and motivating is a big.

Big part of it. So how many years out are you guys now?

I’m two years out. This is my second year as an associate and this is my first year as an associate.

Oh, I see. So you weren’t even the same year graduated?

No, no, no, no. We grew up together, so, yeah, we went to high school. To primary school. Oh, in high school, sixth form. We split up for uni. I took a gap year and he didn’t. Yeah. So that’s why I’m one year behind him.

And where did you study then?

St I’m in Newcastle and I’m from Bristol. Yeah.

Oh so you go to dentist. You wasn’t even you weren’t in the same place at the same time from COVID.

It was really weird because our first year of uploading Ali was in Newcastle, still doing this final year and I was doing my foundation training. So I was in London, he was in Newcastle and he would come down to London for us to record and somehow we managed to upload a video every single week for a whole year with him even being in Newcastle.

The consistency I find with content consistency is the absolute key consistency because because the content will find its own audience, right? The audience that wants to watch YouTube. Yeah, it’s a, it’s a group of people, but they need to every Wednesday night, whenever every time they go for a run or every time whenever their, their particular rhythm is, you need to be there in that rhythm, you know. And I decided to do dental leaders one a week come what may. Yeah yeah. And you know, sometimes it’s a question of we haven’t got an episode, what should we do? And then sometimes they become the most valuable episodes of the whole year because I just sit with him and just talk. Yeah, Yeah. 100%. Did you see any of Frank’s beer? Yeah, I did. What do you think? Was it above your head or did you feel like you could relate to it?

Because as I said, I’m first year associate. No, I could definitely relate to most of it. And I was actually surprising. I was actually thinking, It’s funny you asked me that. I was thinking back to that very first time we went to young dentist and how lost I was as a student compared to how much I actually am now understanding. And also what’s actually above that is I’m also thinking, wow, the more I’m learning, the more I’m learning that actually there’s so much more to learn. Yeah, it’s so, so.

That is, that is dentistry in a nutshell, pardon the pun. But that, that is the more you learn the less you realise how little you know.

You realise how you know. Yes. Just I was, I was noticing how much Doctor Frank’s beer actually he dabbles in so many different things as well and he’s able to understand so many different things from his colleagues.

So experience for me out of the big guns, like the really top guns, maybe there’s like two or three in the world, right? I find him the most accessible, like the most easily understandable, you know, because different people at different stages of their career. Right. So some guys in there are doing full mouth rehabs every day. And then there’s other people like me or you or whoever, you know, who are different level. But out of the big boys, I’ve listened to most of the big boys. I just find him just more accessible, you know? And that’s a. Beautiful thing, man. That’s beautiful. The other thing is that the presentation style. Yeah. You know, Water, bro.

Yeah, I was going to say, he’s got it down to the tee. Yeah, he’s a good speaker. He’s really good at communicating. You can tell, because one sentence flows on to the next and the slide flows on with.

Yeah, yeah.

So smoothly. And I imagine if you open up his PowerPoint, it’s not tense. It’s like hundreds of slides where it doesn’t feel like a 100 slide. How seamless. It’s seamless.

Really? Well, I found that. So you’re not coming tonight to the gala? Yeah. Oh, you’re welcome.

But. Oh, I’ll be here tomorrow for the for the day. And so won’t actually gala will be there.

You’ll enjoy that. You’ll enjoy that look for when they tend to go all out a little bit. Yeah. And, but so I’m going to have you guys on the proper podcast as well. We’d love for sure. Can’t wait because I’ve been watching you guys from a distance for a long time now. Then we finally met on Minibar Maker. That was lovely as well, but we definitely have a full length, long form conversation. So nice to have you guys.

Thank you so much for having us.

I’ve got Chris McConnell, the president who is responsible for all of this from the back. Obviously, again, and I guess this particular event has been driven by.

Ucas this year. So we’re at the ICC in Wales and its 2022 conference. Headline Speaker Frank Spear, who is a massive, massive name in the world of dentistry. And yeah, it’s, it’s a big event in always the venues, big the speakers big delegates numbers are big trade support like yourselves fantastically really big. And yeah, it’s been a lot of hard work to get this through and over the line. I have to say slightly stress this morning, I’m nice and chilled now and it’s lovely to just sit down and have a chat. But it’s been. Yes.

So you know, I guess this kind of event is such a big event that it’s a year in the making in itself, at.

Least for.

At least a year. Right. So when did you have to book Spear? Was it more than a year?

About four years ago. Five years ago, Yeah. So we start quite a few years out. Yeah. Yeah. So this place was booked. Obviously, we’re now 20, 22, so we’re coming off the back of COVID. Yeah. So this was booked I think in 2017, 2018, and it was still being built. Wow. That’s that was a bit of a punt. But as you can see, it’s a great venue and it’s really, really fresh and new. So it’s it’s brilliant. So yeah, so that’s all been in planning for ages. Covid obviously muddle things around a little bit with Edinburgh because Edinburgh should have been the year before. We should have in London last year and all the speakers, everyone got a little bit muddled. But between those because we book everyone but we book everyone, you know, a year or two years ahead in advance. So this year is a kind of a bit of a mash up of what would have been 2021 and 2022.

But I mean, it must be is it only the headliner you have to book that far ahead or everyone does it? Isn’t there a risk of like your you’re perpetuating the same lectures because you don’t you’re working so far ahead, but whoever’s hot, you haven’t you’re not able to put in because you’re working.

Well, this is this is the beauty because we have a great team here. Yeah. And we all go to lots of conferences, lots of lectures, and we’ll keep our pulse, our finger rather on the pulse. And there’s a couple of guys on board who are phenomenal with this, and they really know what’s kind of kicking around, what’s what’s hitting the right mark.

So let’s say mission goes to a conference tomorrow and see someone, some Japanese guy who’s amazing. It’s going to be you’re telling me it’s going to be a minimum of two years. But these guys.

Have booked up Spears booked up for five years. Our speakers booked up 2 to 3 years ahead of time. Just the way we need to plan for it, because obviously we need to market it the year before. So we need to know by September of the year before who’s coming, because we’re putting to print to sell tickets for next year to engage. This is the headline act. So yeah, 18 months is an absolute minimum.

And how about how about the positioning of the conference as far as, you know, the stand at the level I mean, the tension between keeping it simple enough for for a newbie to sort of appreciate and making it complex enough for a veteran that must cross your mind.

All the time. Yeah, it does. And this year, we’ve this is one of the areas that we really wanted to focus on. So the BCD during COVID, everybody’s re-evaluated, haven’t we? So we’ve had time to sit down and look at it. And what we’ve gone is we really want to now have a fresh vision moving forward. And the vision really with the BCD is that we want to be core promoters of ethical cosmetic dentistry. We want to engage with our profession and we want our profession to be engaging in ethical cosmetic dentistry. We’re here to help support here to help educate, and we’re here to help get the message out about how to do things well. And then also we want to engage with the public and make the public aware and go look, ethical cosmetic dentistry is it’s not just, you know, what it’s like people nowadays who just go, Oh, I’ve done whitening, I’ve done six veneers on the front. Here we go. That’s cosmetic dentists. No, it’s not. You need to have the turkey teeth. And turkey teeth has kicked this off this year. So we’re trying to raise awareness with the public as well.

How are you doing that?

Are we doing this through lots of different media channels? We’re building relationships with all the media. But coming back to your point on how do we gauge for every single person? Yeah, we do that with the Thursday event specifically. So what we wanted to do first events are hands on days and there’s lots of different sessions where people can come along and get kind of they really get into the nitty gritty and the learning.

Choose the particular thing.

And that is where you get most of your learning. You know full well when you’re in sitting in a massive lecture theatre, you’re seeing the theatre that’s there. You, you learn, it’s inspirational. Yeah. When you actually doing a hands on this is stuff you learn that you’re going back in on. The next time you’re back in clinic you can implement. And so the first three sessions are really, really important and we have because there’s six seven this year though eight streams, it’s really easy to then cater for different abilities and skill sets. And that’s what we did this year, really focusing on the newbies who are coming in all the way up to, you know, the old farts like me who are going, we want that a little bit more. We want really to have our grey matter challenged. And we had a great session with Chris or Neil, Jerod, Ken Harris, where they were really picking apart cases that you only ever see once because only one ever walks in. And how do you deal with that? And it was great, the interaction. There was quite a lot of people on that one and interaction was fantastic. But you’ve got to be at a certain level to understand where they’re going from. So yeah, so that’s how we, we structure it.

So having, having done a lot of events myself, yeah, that one thing I almost let’s like a wedding or something isn’t it. That one thing I always think of in an event is that there’s going to be something that goes wrong in every event and you’ve got, you’ve got a kind of for me, at every event, when that thing goes wrong, I go, Oh, there it is. There it is. That’s the thing. So what’s gone wrong?

What’s gone wrong? We have managed to deal with everything, all right? We have had challenges. Everyone has challenges.

So what’s gone wrong on this particular one today? Probably give an example to running something this big.

Okay. The biggest one for me that’s really done my head in right is the doors between the theatre and the Trade Hall. They don’t say no, no, they stay open, but people keep going through them. And I’m sitting there moderating Frank’s beer and I have this door that opens and keeps opening closing with Frank Letts. You’re on the stage about 20 metres away, not even that ten metres away, and people coming through, chatting with their coffees. And I’m just I seriously, I was guilty. Am I allowed to swear I lost my shit? I’ve been going on all morning. Lock the door. Lock the door, lock the door. And, and everyone was. And at one point I went right. It got to the point I had to leave my moderating session and I was storming around using different certain emojis on on the WhatsApp, let’s put that way to get the people down and lock the doors. They couldn’t lock them. So then I got I said, Right, well, in that case, if you can’t lock them, then I want someone standing in front of them. So they had someone standing in front of them and then they bug it off and then and it went back to square one. So yeah, for me that was the the biggest headache today.

I was, I was talking about I looked at the, you know, the flag outside that says 18th annual conference and I think I’ve been to 17 of them. Yeah. And you have had a massive part in organising many of those. 17. What’s the difference being the President. Is it, do you feel the burden of that 100%. Is it because you’re the final decision maker? Well.

Look, when I’ve come into this, what I’ve always tried to do is I’ve tried to go, this is a team effort. This is not about I’m keeping the seat warm for a year. That’s all I am. I’m a custodian of the presidency. However, it’s kind of viewed that it’s kind of your conference as president, and so everyone puts that a little bit on you and they get you to make all those little decisions and they kind of almost step back and, well, I’ll let you make that decision. So you’ve got to make a lot more. And yet you do take ownership and you feel quite a lot of attachment to it and it gets quite personal. And so I’ve come here and I’ve gone. I really want everyone to have a great day like this morning. We spent a huge amount of time trying to get emotion in the opening ceremony because for me emotion is critical. If you have emotion, then you feel and you embrace and you become part of. So hopefully with the smoke, the the countdown, the Male voice choir, the very inspirational talk by Colin, it’s this all kind of brings it together. So so that for me is is was really personal but everything running running to clockwork and as it should does should do it never does but you know and gala dinner tonight. I’m glad you’re coming. It’s going to be amazing.

Can you can you when you might as well just tell me because by the time these guys are.

All right, massive big vodka luge. Oh, excellent. Covid safe vodka luge. And it’s going to be epic. Epic. So we’re looking forward to it. Yeah.

Fraser, thank you so much for taking the time. You’re very welcome. I know it’s your busiest day and you’ve taken the time to spend it with me, so.

I’m very appreciative as well.

Thanks a lot for doing it.

There you go. I’m being called back now. Cool, buddy. Thanks, buddy. Okay. Take care.

So this is the best Palmer.

Hey, buddy.

Hey, man. So, right at the end of day three, it’s. You know, I’ve been trying to get you all my podcasts for the last three years. And for some reason, nothing.

I’ve got nothing interesting to say. Yeah.

Yeah. Everyone’s got something interesting. But you just got accredited on this one. Yeah, me through. Why would you want to be accredited?

You know, I’ve been asked that question a few times this weekend.


I guess inspiration came from when I did Krystle’s course back in 2012. Yeah. And he introduced BCD and the accreditation process back then. Yeah. And when I looked at the pathway, I just thought, Oh, this looks pretty exciting. It’s a British Academy of Cosmetic Dentistry. You know, it’s not so much as just paying a monthly membership fee. And I spoke to James Russell and he said, look, you know, it’s it’s not the destination of getting the accreditation. It’s the journey and the learning, the learning aspects of that journey. So, yeah, once I started, I did. Three cases in one year, and then I got lazy and took a break for a couple of years. And then they emailed me saying, Look, we’re going to change your process, so you might as well stick to the old, old protocol and just hand in your last two cases. So yeah, we’re just sort of finish it off.

And so I guess I get the thing about sort of playing against yourself and, you know, achieving something. But is there more to it than that? Are you going to now market that to patients or do you think patients don’t get that?

I think to from a patients perspective, saying I’m the president of the BCD means. And sounds more than I’m an accredited member. It’s a very personal it’s a very Dental.

I’m sorry to say thank you, but you’re not going to be any time soon.

Being president of anything.

But they’re not many dentists very accredited. So it’s a communication story, right, to patients. You could you could communicate that one of the few dentists, you know what I mean? To me? That it would make sense to also have it as a patient story.

Yeah. Yes. Look, I know loads of dentists who who may not have the wards and these kind of posts behind their name, and they’re very, very successful because from a patient’s perspective, all they’re interested in is are your nice dentists. Are you going to hurt me and are you going to give me the result? I don’t care about the letter of your name and all the rest of it. Sure, this is more of a personal thing, isn’t it? And you know, I started that journey. It’s done now.

What about this? This event would like this particular one. How was Frank Spear? How was how was the education in general for you? To be honest.

Overall education, absolutely fantastic. Provided you control your your alcohol. You take the night.


In a frank spear world.

Class to speak before.


So this was different. I thought.

It was certainly very.


Very different. I mean, that guy, well, he’s a is restorative trained prostate period. Trained as well. You know, world class, international, well seasoned lecturer is seen it all, done it all. I guess when you when I’ve seen him on other instances, it’s generally full math rehabs you know, reconstruction of advanced bone loss cases, you know, grafting and, you know, proper, proper dentistry.


He is a composite veneer.

Not composer artistry. No.

They’re dealing with man’s dentistry.

Which you’re doing a lot of yourself. Right? You’re doing a lot of full, full mouth cases. Yeah. Do you find that more satisfying than the composite? Well, yes.

One, it’s more stimulating. Is it? Yeah. You mean makes you think a composite? Look, it’s. Yes. You know, when I first started off that was stimulating learning the science behind it. But a lot of it is art. Yeah, it’s very it’s very. There’s a lot of dexterity involved. Yeah. You know, especially for your simple aesthetic cases where function is not a huge. Factor in that case was more of a cosmetic case. When you’re starting to do full math, rehabs, minimal prep veneers or treating patients that are actually, you know, they want minimal prep stuff, that then becomes slightly more challenging.

So I think.

To get to the crux of it. I sometimes say that, you know, you love teeth. You know, you adore dentistry, right. But to get to the crux of what is it about dentistry that you adore? Yeah, because it’s not Emily yesterday who is very, very, very good with composite. And she says that she’d rather not ever do the composite. She’d rather do the. The aligning and parcel the composite to someone else. And so for you, what is it that is your love? Is it is your love? I know it’s a combination of many things, but is your love the problem solving, treatment, planning, piece of it, or is that is there a degree of carpentry meccano like the drilling part? And fitting things together part? Or is it the social side of the patient and how happy they are at the end of it? And I know it’s a combination. Yeah. Yeah. But but to go to like what you’re saying now, how, how much you like full mouth work or so and you’ve got this ortho MSC as well. Yeah. So you know because you know, you look at an ortho before and after and it’s profound, right. Okay. It’s a year between the two pictures. Yeah, but it is profound. So if we’re talking about profound change also makes profound change. The planning is very interesting. Yeah. There’s 11 ways to skin that cat, right? Yep. So why isn’t author your love? You know? I mean, so what is it about formal rehab that you like more than ortho? When I have a question.

Okay, so when I say full mat rehab, a lot of them do have orthodontic treatment.

As well.

As. Well, you know, when I first started off, I was doing composites and I kind of built a reputation on composites. It was generally about aesthetics, wasn’t it? Yeah. You know, getting that invisible class three, Class five, whatever it is, single veneer, multiple composite veneers, getting that invisible restoration. Shiny. Shiny. Yeah, of course. Microfilm, hashtag. And then I started my my M.S. in Ortho back in 2012, where I had to make a decision. It was either going to be surgical implants or ortho. My brother was replacing implants. He’s got a masters in implants and he’s a phenomenal surgeon. So it would have been quite daft for me to do it. So I thought, Right, is he got a master’s implant?

Amazing. I don’t know that.

He’s a he’s got those of the.

Talented Palmer boys.



Now. So yeah, back then when I first started off, it was all about creating that invisible restoration. That’s what kind of triggered, you know. Yeah. Stimulated me. Now, actually, and the main thing for myself is when I’m finished a case. I am going back to my and assessing whether my diagnostic and my treatment planning skills were on point.

What you could have done better like that that piece.

Yeah well that.

And did I diagnose a problem correctly and did I treat it in the most appropriate way? So when I do a big case ortho restorative perio, for example, if I’ve diagnosed it properly, treatment plan, do it properly, finish the case off. I’m more chuffed about my thought processes at the beginning than the actual end result, if that makes sense.

There’s a lot of it.

Might be lab influenced. Some things are at your control. Patients don’t wear their retainers, teeth start slipping. Yes. And the more complex cases you do, the more you know, the more complex the problems are afterwards as well. Yeah. So what stimulates me more now is, is was my diagnosis correct? And was the treatment plan appropriate for for that patient?

And, you know, like, you know, that thing tips is about staying in the same practice for a long time. And I think Frank said yesterday as well, it’s treating the same patient for 30 years. And you can see what you’ve been how many years and. The same fact in ACORN.

For 12 years graduate in 2010. I’ve been there, did my 12 years.

As I see those cases, you put up like seven year, eight year composite cases, right? Yeah. So we’re going to take you through a situation that you looked at something eight years on or ten years time on and realised you’d made a mistake.

I’ll tell you something even better than that. I get to see my brothers, what, 12, 12 years older than me? I get to see his records that he’s started off because he’s been.

But you’re not sure what he did.

I know. I can tell you when I can. I know which which are his composite.

Because what he used.

To do, because he’s kind of taught me so similar style and seeing his post ups and forget that even better, the principle that he brought the practice of I’ve got to see his records. So I’m I get to see 30, 40 year old wrinkles.

Yeah, but you don’t know what 40 years ago it looked like, Gillian. But that’s important. I get it.

The performance of materials.

I get it, I get it, I get it, I get it. I do get that. So. So tell me something you’ve learned then from from looking at that like a typical like.

You’ve got to be meticulous. Dr. Cooper was meticulous, my brothers. Meticulous. They’ve taught me to be meticulous. If you’re meticulous, if you’re precise, you’re going to get good results.

Yeah. Yeah. And the errors do compound, don’t they? Like small errors end up as is much bigger errors afterwards. And and, you know, we see that with composite like a tiny little, little little imperfection in the composite can amplify six months and 12 months amplifies a big black dot. Yep. And and as you always point out, in all these cases we see that where there haven’t been ultra meticulous and how that’s going to turn out and the upkeep of it and all that. But I was I was more after like you realised not to do something like what? What is it like a way of doing it that you, for instance, with me, we know we talk about proximal staining. Yeah. Because I saw it in the, maybe in the three years that I was in that same practice it was staining came up as the main issue. Yeah. And then to be more meticulous within the proximal. Yeah. Yeah. I saw that with my own eyes, you know. So what was there with you? Recession.

Recession. Soft tissue management, soft tissue control for indirect work, soft tissue management for implant work that we’ve seen with my brothers stuff, you know, pushing the boundaries of composite, for example. So the tooth where cases that are treated with composite and you start to realise actually was that the right material in that particular mouth, you know, if.

Americans would call it transitional bonding for that.

Reason. Yeah, but you could do that. It creates its own problems because quite often you open up a patient’s OCD, the where the composite away, you’ve lost the OCD, and then it’s like, what do I do now? So either becomes a darling or you’re doing a full set of restorations again.

You know, you teach composite, right? And I think there is a massive sort of lack of knowledge as far as shortened teeth that people lend them. And, you know, you put this out all the time that the teeth shortened for a reason and people lengthen them and then and then that’s can be an occlusal problem. Now, our responsibility in composite teaching to teach occlusion and then you see it a lot. You see cases with these Centrals that are worn and someone just lengthens them. Yep.

So you think they’re worn for a reason? They’re in that position for a reason.

They’re faster than the enamel. Or it could even be an early like problem, right, if it catches a lateral or something. But but it’s weird because competition doesn’t really have inclusion management as part of it. We do. Do we do? I know we do, but it’s still not that much, right? It’s like an hour, right?

That’s because. Because they’re coming to learn composite. I know. I know. And they can go on another collision course and we.

Can’t teach everything from and.

We’re pretty frank. You’ve got to also accept or you’ve got to you’re going to hope the the your delegate delegate is going to have some sound knowledge on occlusion and know what case do you treat and what not case not to treat. But you do have to give them give people some advice. But look, I know so many people that will quite happily slap composite everywhere. You know, the most dysfunctional of maths and are quite happy to treat the the results that the results of that for me, you know, being paralysed by perfection, you know, I’ve kind of been trained to be more comprehensive interdisciplinary work. So you might look at cases in a different way. And yeah, there are cases where the patients can say, No, I don’t want two years worth of author, no, I don’t want to stick an implant here and stabilise occlusion here. I just want that those six veneers please. But as long as you have consented for it, and more importantly as a dentist, you’ve got to acknowledge that these problems may arise. Hence going back to your diagnostic and treatment planning skills and then what decision is chosen thereafter? It’s it’s been made with intent.

Yeah. Yeah. On purpose, not by mistake. Yeah, well, you’re not lying about the parallels by perfection. Yeah, because many Smile Makeover part two is four years in the making, and it’s been loads and loads of lost hair in my head for that one. But hopefully we’ll have a big announcement on that soon. We will. We will. But thanks a lot for taking that in. It’s really hard for you to talk to me.

Any time, Buddy.

Says, You know, we’re sitting here on day two of BCD and Frank Spear’s been talking all day. We’ve been. We’ve been.


Yes, yes, yes. Have you seen him before?

No, It’s the first time. Yes.

Oh, What do you think?

I’m very impressed. You know, I somehow had a little bit of I was questioning what type of dentistry he was going to talk about and how he was with her, his expertise, how he was going to bring the minimally invasive part of that, because.

He’s not known for.

Minimal innovation. He’s not he’s more about restorations, form of rehabilitation and the occlusion thing, you know, all the bits. But I’m super impressed. I’ve definitely taken tips that I can work with the next day.

Like what was the that kind of resonated with you?

One of the things I have always believed in is in being conservative, and I find it very frustrating when somebody else, another colleague especially, finds, for example, an apical lesion and they intend to re treat the tooth or extract the tooth. Yeah. One of the things that he was talking about this morning about just give it time, let’s see what happens in 12 months time, in 24 months time and so on. Just basically monitoring. I think that is a key thing that I would of course I’m practising it, but I will discuss with my colleagues as.

I hear someone like Frank say It makes it more real, isn’t it?

Exactly. But you feel that you’re doing the right thing.

Well, he said that I hadn’t ever considered was the idea that if if the patient manages to keep that tooth for another six years, technology will move forward. And it’s something you don’t really think about that know that’s actually true. In six years time, implant dentistry will be a different thing to what it is today is what’s possible will be different.

And also taking into consideration what the patient wants. Sometimes they don’t want to take it to that or they don’t have the means to pay for an implant. And we even win. Two or three years of the patient can be saving towards the implant towards that makes it possible. Is possible. Yeah. And as as he says he’s going to make it, well, it is believable that we care for the patient.

Yeah. So you’re now part of the BCD organisation, right?


So what is it you’re doing? What’s your.

Particular. I’m a committee member for Educational Committee and I’m standing up as a board member tomorrow. So hopefully I will be.

I’ll get my vote in. I’ll get my voted yes, please. So. So up to now, what does it mean to be part of the Education committee? What does that mean?

Well, we meet to talk about potential speakers for future events. This year, for example, I was very fortunate to be the organiser of our female leaders in dentistry event that it was absolutely amazing. So is that. Type of events that we’re trying to bring at the same time that we bring education, we also want to bring the social aspect of it, you know, networking, having fun with our colleagues. At the same time that we were learning. So yes, that’s good teacher for.

The if you have to if you had to put like a three day event like this and think about what bit of it is the most valuable bit you take. Obviously you’re seeing Frank Spear that’s going to inspire you. Yeah. You go to a hands on thing, you can actually learn something that you could literally do the next week. Yes, but the thing, the bit that you often forget is this bit, you know, the soft part, like you said, the socialising bit not only to have fun, but also, you know, you actually end up asking questions and learning from people outside of the actual learning environment. That’s why, you know, on our composite course we have this social part that when people don’t turn up to that social part, actually they feel like they’ve lost out. Because there’s one thing watching Depeche all day on the stage, but a different thing totally over a drink, having an asking a specific question. And he’ll say at that point something that you just not going to say on stage.

Yeah. I think you also form a different relationship with a speaker. Yeah, they become more real to you, right? They are more approachable, accessible. I think that’s why the Bayezid is so determined to making these social events in the majority of our events. We would like to bring that social component.

So in that female leaders thing, what did you do socially? What was the say?

Well, it was super fun because we had a female deejay. Oh, did you? We had a female DJ. We had.

All. It was like.

Yeah, I used a bit of everything, you know, We had a little bit of everything. A seventies music, eighties, nineties, Yeah, more recent music. It was amazing. And of course it was some beer. And so we managed to, to, to get our hands in some very, really lovely English sparkling wine. So yeah, it was amazing.

So we had, we had this series called Leading Ladies. Yes. And part of it was I started counting the number of guests that we’ve had on this podcast who are men and women, and guess what the ratio was?

I can’t imagine. I would like to say equal.

No, no more Ladies. 4 to 1 men.

Oh, 4 to 1. Yeah.

And when I saw that and you know, I’m actually trying to have more women on, right? You know, I’ve changed my position on it now. We’re actually trying to have more women on I but even then when I counted, it was a 4 to 1 ratio of men to women. And that’s why I thought, Oh, let’s do these compilation ones of the ladies and put all of them together just to just to have some more inspiration that way. Now, for someone like you, who now you just sold your practice. Yes. Yeah. You you’re a strong leader. Like I’ve seen you in practice. I’ve been to your practice. People like you, you, you motivate people and all of that. Much of your journey in the educational piece would have been different, would have would have accelerated if there were more women teaching.

I think quite a lot. Because you want to be relatable.

To identify to the.

Teacher, you want to be identified, you want that person to understand what you go through when you’re a mother. But they at the same time, you have a business. When you have an inspiration, you want to be better. You want to spend time learning. It’s always nice to know that the other person knows what you’re going through because they go through the same thing. You know, it’s a little bit like menopause. We talk about that between women. There is something that you wouldn’t discuss with them. It’s the same thing in dentistry in what is to be a mom or what is to have all the things to do apart from your dentistry. But at the same time you want to be in dentistry. So it is it is harder for a woman to be considered, I think, as a as a leader or as inspirational professional because we have so much competition without with men. What I was.

What? What do you.

Mean? Yeah. Because when you go and for example, you, you are like the event that I organised, I will be approaching companies and saying, which are your top female speakers? And I will find companies that said, Oh, actually I don’t have any female speakers. So that that was maybe because historically we have been busy running our families, running all the part of our lives rather than. To dentistry. Yeah.

That’s the reason, isn’t it?

It is, I think.

I think it’s partly that. Partly that there’s a second part that it’s almost like ladies are less likely to. To put themselves up somehow. There’s a, there’s a modesty or a like for a man to stand up and say, this is what I do and this is the size of my drill. It seems more natural than for some ladies.

Yes. Yes. Because you want to be considered as an equal, but you see that in many lines in life you are not considered an equal.

I don’t think it’s about consent. You don’t? Do you honestly think that in this in this environment here, some people are saying, oh, this lady isn’t equal to that man like you just thought that amazing practice. Right? And James Gornik just sold his amazing practice as an outsider. Someone else looking at it, whether it’s a man or a woman looking at it, no one’s going to say, Oh, Jean is less than James in any way.

Well, I yes, I think I don’t think we do find anybody saying that. I really hope we never find somebody saying that. I think you’re believing.

You’re out of the ordinary. A little bit of of women in that you’re you’re out there. You’ve got you’ve got your practice. You’re doing all the things you’re doing. And now you’re doing this, for instance, you’re a little bit out of the ordinary that you’ve put yourself in. You know, someone coming over from Mexico?


To do that in a second language, you’re not a bit special in that sense, right? Thank you. But is there something that’s holding other women back? I don’t think that the system is I don’t think the system.

I don’t think is the system. I think is is is is the first thing that The first.

Thing is that for sure. Right. You’re running a house, you’re running a practice. You run a lecturing career on top of those.

But this support this support is supporting your personal life, is supporting your business life. Like, for example, I have a very supportive husband, but in the practice I have an amazing team behind me so I can I don’t have to be in the practice for the practice to run properly. I don’t have to be at home for my house to be run properly. I have a nanny, you know, in support and believing that you can count with these people to support you. That gives you the confidence to say, Actually, I want to do this. I think I’m capable of doing that. Don’t take me wrong. I doubt sometimes myself, I sometimes feel that people believe more in me, that I believe in myself, that it’s like the imposter imposter syndrome.

Imposter syndrome is a feature of growing quickly, that if you’re doing if you’re doing something and growing quickly, imposter syndrome is one of the features of that. Yeah, I don’t know. Maybe, maybe, maybe women suffer with it more than men do. Maybe.

I think so. Yes, I will. I will think so. But one thing that I know is changing is that that perception of saying, yes, we want more female speakers I was talking to yesterday to to one of the lecturers and I, I was talking about my event and said we don’t want to call it female leaders in dentistry event maybe anymore because it doesn’t matter if you are female or male, you are a leader in dentistry. I said, Who will you put forward? I said, I don’t have anybody. But you know what? After speaking to you, I’m going to look in my network to see who will be perfect for us to work with. So I think it’s just it’s changing and it’s changing in a very positive way. I think that is one of my main inspirations to be in the back seat and become a board member, hopefully tomorrow.

Do you think one day you’ll be the president?

Well, yes, why not?

I love your style. Yes, I love your style. Why not?

Why not? Why not? Yes.

One thing one thing that’s been a bit of a bugbear of mine has been this question of, you know, women in dentistry. Yes. The the there are some women in dentistry having a really tough ride. Yes. And it’s not the dentists, it’s the nurses, the receptionists, the hygienist.


Support team. And one thing in your practice, it’s actually it’s all female.

Yes, we are.

I seem.

To remember. Yes.

But in your practice, it was this sort of very career orientated sort of feeling about it. You know that your manager. What a professional.

Amanda. Amanda.

What a professional. And when we deal with her regarding Enlightened or whatever, or even when I see her, you know, I got the sense that she had career progression in her life she was proud of.


Proud of what she was achieving in work.

She she’s she.

Puts in a lot of.

Very hard working that that that’s.

In a lot of practices. You don’t get that in so much as practice seem to be centred around that and. And it’s almost like everyone else is there on minimum wage that you can possibly pay them to just do the little bits that they can and let this dentist carry on. And you hear some terrible stories about the way staff are treated. Oh, definitely. But you’ve managed to you know as well as making your patients happy, make yourself happy.

I think it’s because I give them the respect and the place that they deserve. You know, I, I always say to my to my staff, what would you like to do? Is there cause you want to go to let me know? We’re always happy to support you. You know, it’s is is progression. But not only my progression is your progression where you want to go. We have had team members that have left the practice because they have gone back to university or they have made a career change. You know, it is not because we’re not a good team to work with because they’re moving on and moving on. Exactly.

Yes. It’s a lovely example. Tell me about now that you’ve sold the practice. Yes. You’re still there, right? You still have. How many more years do you have to be there?

Four years. Four years in total, Yes.

How does it feel now that you’re not the boss anymore?

It’s odd, I have to say. It’s not that as easy as one thing. The transition. It is a transition. You have to get used to it.

You have to ask for permission.

You have to ask for permission.

Give me an example of something you would have just actioned straightaway. Whereas now you have to ask for permission.

As simple as. We had a beautiful humidifier at the practice that, you know, with this aroma for your cigars. Not at all. But I said to Amanda, Amanda, we need to buy a table to put it on. Oh, yeah. I will ask permission to buy that. And it’s like, what? It’s just a £20 table from Amazon, you know? But it is what it is.

That must make you angry.

Another thing that. That that is is is going to be a big change is the way that we celebrate Christmas at the practice. Because I’m very old, you know oh I love champagne parties and things and that And now you’ve been told, well, you have only £50 per person and you know, what am I going to do with £50 per person? You know, but I’m sure we will. We will manage. Yeah. We’ll do something special for them.

That’s tough.

Man. It is.

Tough. Yes.

I guess you could always top it up like.

Oh, of course I will top it off. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m already saving for that.

But I hear you. But I hear you. I hear you. I’m trying to think about it. Enlightened. I had that. I mean, I think there’s one, one issue where it’s. It’s like at the £20 Amazon table where it’s annoying. Yes, but there is another issue that this bishopsgate would not have gotten to where it’s gotten and the way it’s got I mean, it’s just everything about that practice. I’ve been there a few times, right? I feel the vibe about that. You’ve made certain moves at certain times to get to where you got to. Exactly how much of those moves would have been delayed and not allowed if there was a third party saying yes, no, yes, no. And I know you you’re kind of a passionate kind of person and a bit like me, if I if I’m excited about something, I’m like, let’s do that now and then. Even if it doesn’t make sense. Yes. Yeah. Because I want to make that thing happen. And it’s interesting to reflect back and think going backwards, if you had to ask for permission for every move you made.

We would not be where we are.

Now. You wouldn’t be where you are now.

No, but that is the beauty of the years in a practice that you you grow it to a point when you think, okay, now I want to do something different, be involved more in the bhakti, do some more speaking for a line, you know, different things where I think, you know what? I need somebody now to help me. The progression of the practice because the practice is keeps progressing. One of the main the big examples of it is we I saw the practice in March. By September we had already two new dentists that I wanted to bring since last year, but I’ve been so yeah, journey and really and I’ve been so busy that I haven’t had the time to to think, okay, what is the next step? I know the next step is to bring more clinicians, but oh, I’ll do it tomorrow. I’ll do it tomorrow. Whereas now I said.

Could you expand it?

You made it bigger.

Yes. So I said, Guys, I want to four more days, clinical days. And they say, okay, do not leave it to us. And they do it. They help me with that.

You must have known you were going to sell it while you were making it bigger. And I have to be strangely honest.

My the first time I thought about selling it was when we were in the first lockdown. I enjoyed my home. I enjoyed spending time with my family. I. And I thought.

There’s another side to life.

There’s another side to life. I enjoy life. For example, the video consultations, the sort of things happening behind dentistry, let’s say. So that is the first time I thought, why not? So that is when the process started.

And then is there any aspect of responsibilities that being taken away from you that are actually good, that you’re happy?

I’m very pleased.

Like what?

We had a serious inspection.

You had nothing.

To do about six weeks ago. I didn’t have anything to do with it. Of course, I supported my my team. You know, I help out with the radiology folder. I was there to sign papers. I did my whatever they asked me to do. But the corporate was sold to I don’t know if I love to say dentists. They were there all the time. You know, They’re the ladies that they’re for. Yeah. What’s the compliance team was was there, and they didn’t let us alone. You felt. We felt that we were accompanied throughout and I didn’t have to even be the practice to on that secrecy inspection. But having said that, one of the comments that we got that Amanda was told by the inspector is I don’t doubt that your practice was already amazing before you sold to dentists and the secrecy of some of the audits that we run that were no dentistry. So he still said we Exactly. We did it. So yes, that was great.

Did you feel that loss feeling people talk about like you’ve sold your baby?

No yet, and I don’t think I will because.

Did you start it from school? What did you buy?

Was bankrupt when I bought it. So I had to build up an only patient.

And how many.

Years? The reputation? 12 years. 12 years for.

Such an amazing achievement.

He had a very bad reputation. The practice with all these pliers. Because the previous pain level pain. You reach a point that because directory will not sell me if I was in pain straight away.


So because I remember you from when when we had our podcast episode, I remember asking you you’ve got you’re doing so many Invisalign like, what’s your marketing machine? And you kept on saying, just we just do good work and people recommend us. So like you turned that around from a bad reputation practice exactly where you got it. Yes. One of the busiest Invisalign centres in the country visits enlightened centres in the country. The bits are like.

Exactly, yeah, of course.

Massive achievement. You should be very proud.

Thank you.

You really should. So lovely speaking to you. Thanks a lot for taking the time.

No, thank you for inviting.

Me and are really already enjoying this. Hopefully tonight we’re going have a great.

Of course we will. And it’s always so nice to speak to you so And.

Thanks to you. Thank you.

So, Kayleigh, so thank you from Dental with me at BCD. K you kind of here on on behalf of dental beauty in a way as well. And you’ve sold what, 60% of of kids dental to them and now we’ve got this sort of new roll out of practices. And last time I spoke to you, you were about to open you were saying ten more practices. Was was the plan. How far are you with that?

Okay. So obviously, when the deal took place in March, the master plan was to grow and yeah, ten clinics is, is was all for me. It was a realistic number. And you know, it’s actually a little bit more difficult than you think doing that. Sure. And, you know, we’re now into the actual reality of the situation and we are now into November.

How many of you go.

And so we’ve got five up to.

Now, five new.

Ones. No. So we’ve got our original three. Yeah. We’ve now completed and opened two more and they’re running. Where are they. So they’re in Alderley edge and I’ve got two lovely partners for they’re a couple Colwell and Jade who are amazing and they’re running that clinic beautifully. And then we’ve got Knutsford now, and that literally opened only a couple of weeks ago and that was with our new partner, Andy McLean. And he’s an amazing clinician and I know that clinic is going to do super well.

Yeah, of course.

And then we’ve been trying to acquire a clinic in Liverpool for the last six months, believe it or not. And it’s just the property, it’s a squat property and it will be a complete greenfield site and it’s taken six months to acquire. Now we didn’t envisage that. So we’re in a situation where that should have been up and running by Christmas. It’s now going to probably be March, April and the timeline moves on.

And so what’s been holding that up?

Just the just property, old property issues. And it’s just like, kill me now because all I want to do is grow. You know, the funds are there, the money’s there, the clinicians are there. And Kosh, who’s one of our associates, you know, he’s going to be the partner of that clinic. And then we’ve got an agreed site in Bolton. Again, just going through the legals currently, it’s just things just take that little bit longer and you don’t envisage that when you when you start this journey and we’ve got a final clinic in Bramhall in Stockport.


And again I’ve been going, okay, but again we’re just going through the legals of acquiring the site first and then we need to build the clinic, which is generally formal, another squat, another squat. So what my model is, is literally based currently just purely on squats and.


Control and the ability to have a fresh start at that site. The patients understanding that this is what they’re signing into right from day one, I believe like there will be a time where I would really like to acquire existing clinics as well. But it’s tricky because you acquire existing clinics, you actually acquire existing problems and existing staff and sometimes they may not be aligned with what I want to do.

And so the partner person is is got skin in the game, right?

Yeah, 100%, 40%.

40% of that particular clinic.

That particular clinic.

And then so what are you thinking is going to be the time from when that a new squat launches to profitability. Is it very quick.

Yes. So to be honest with you, our progress has been a little bit slow initially as well, because, you know, our investors were very cautious because my my business plan was. Bullish. And, you know, I’m saying we’re going to make profit from not day one, essentially, but we’re going to make your maybe a positive profit month to month three in that, right? Yeah. And they’re like, he joking like and they’ve got 300 plus clinics around Europe. Every greenfield site they open, they’re like, we’re in profit month seven or month eight.

Which is still compared to real. Well, when I say real business compared to non dental businesses, six months seven months is extraordinary. Two weeks in profit. So so you’re in a hurry to get it into profit in month two. Well, yeah, asking a lot. It’s asking a lot of the marketing team. I think it is a squat.

And so we launched Altrincham Alderley Edge and that’s been launched now three months of we’re in positive EBITDA.

So what’s, what’s now your new role Because while it was your own three clinics, yes, you are definitely the producer, the one doing the most dentistry.

Yeah, of course.

And so when in a new clinic, is your role training the partners into that dental way of.

Yeah, of course. So like for me now I’m doing three clinical days. Yeah. Wanting to really put that down to two if I can in the next 12 months. Only because I love the dentistry and I don’t want to finish that and I don’t want to stop that. But yeah, heavily based on really spending time with the partners. You know, I’ve got some partners like we’ve spoken about, like Andy McLean, who, you know, he’s much, much.

More he’s going to hit the ground.

Running so he knows what he’s doing. I don’t need to hold his hand and get him through that process. But I’ve got other partners that have never run a clinic before. I’ve never been a part of anything apart from KISS. And so those guys are really want to kind of go, I’m here to support you, here to help you, and here to ensure that no matter what happens at this point now, you know, you you will be able to run this and I will be there. And so that’s a big part in what how.

Are you finding the transition for yourself as a as an operator? It’s transitioning to this new role.

Yeah, it’s it’s tricky because I’m a dentist and I just you know, I’m my biggest comfort area is just doing teeth sitting in my room, do my teeth. And, you know, when I’m having to deal with lots of meetings and partners and this and that and the other, I genuinely do feel sometimes like, just give me back my teeth really, because.

I find I find in life, though, when you when you do get out of your comfort zone like that, that sort of cliche that people talk about where you do get out of your comfort zone. Yeah, you only realise how important that was later, years later. Yeah. When when the when you reap the rewards of, of that when you’re actually going through it. Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s uncomfortable. Right. It’s uncomfortable. You know you’re out of your comfort zone, you’re not doing what you’re used to. Yeah. And so I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t sort of worry too much about the fact that it’s uncomfortable. But, but yeah. That transferring the things about Kailash that are, that are special to this new role each you have to look at each new thing you do and think, why am I the right person to do this? Yeah. Yeah. Because if a patient is put in front of you and you’re going to talk to them about 20 veneers. Yeah, you do that, like with your eyes closed. Drinking water. Yeah. Why is that? Because you’re good with people. Because you’re good at presenting stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So then, so then it’s got to be when you now talk to a partner, a dentist, you have to now present the opportunity to the dentist, right? Yeah. And you know, I went through this myself. Yeah. I was very good with patients. I thought because I’m very good with patients, I’m going to be very good with dentists if there are two different animals.


But when a patient sits in your chair, he’s implicitly saying, I trust you. Yeah. Whereas we’re trained as dentists, we’re trained not to trust. That’s part of our training isn’t to question everything. Right? So, you know, I think you shouldn’t worry too much about it. You should just keep on doing what you’re doing.

Yeah. And I do think, like, you know, as as I’ve gone along and, you know, I think things like my private vet scheme at the clinics is really helped because it’s allowed these clinicians who are now becoming partners in my business, it’s allowed them to know whether they do trust me or not. So then when I sit down with them and I say, Oh, caution, Nabeel or Calum or whoever, listen, I think this clinic would be perfect for you. They they’re literally like, okay, that’s what you think, Let’s do it, you know? And that’s lovely. It’s like a.

Lovely. So let’s talk about career pathway because we were just discussing if someone’s just qualified. Yeah. How long does it take them to do your private scheme. Yeah. And let’s say they’re very good and they take on the way you train them and all that. How long will it take them to go from just qualified private vet to the point of becoming a partner. How long would you say was the shortest period that that could be? So if.

You look at for instance, Kush and Nabeel, who are probably my youngest partners, so Coach has been with us now nearly three years, So he started his private vet and.

Straight out of college.

Graduate is from Latvia. So like in the UK. Yeah. Came straight to. But to the UK and did year one with us, which was a salaried position and year two which was a salaried position and then to fee per item at the end of year two and just be prior to a normal kind of split 45, 55 split and a private clinic. And you know, at that point doing well, I would say quite, quite advanced dentistry from, from the offset really, and not initially from that but year one. Year two is where he learned that and specifically from myself and some of my key clinicians. So then year three, we’ve already we’ve offered him.

Yeah, he is rather special.

He is he is rather special. But then if we look at Nabeel, that’s the fastest he’s the fastest. Nabeel came towards again on the private VC scheme. He we only did one year of the private VC scheme, but he’d already graduated and worked in clinics previously, so his experience level was higher. Yeah. So then I say, Well, I want you to be with us. I want you to grow with our group. But I also want to don’t want to do is just throw you in the deep end. You don’t understand how this works. You don’t understand what we do and how we do it. I want you to have a salaried position for a year. I don’t want to worry about money. I want you to just me focus on the clinics, focus on dentistry, focus on doing things right. And he took that on board and he took a large pay cut, if you can imagine, to go from fee copyright.

Fee per item, associate.

Associate to to a salaried position of.

I’ll break it down. How much do you pay them. 5050 K Yeah, but I guess you’ve got to look at that as education, the education that you’re being paid for. That’s the way you have to look at it.

And that’s what I say. I said to anyone that even would ever consider it. If you consider it and you begrudge every day you’re there because you know you could earn more money and don’t do it. Yeah, because you’re not in the right mindset to learn to be there, to be present and to think I’m getting value for this. All your thinking is is paying me a measly 50 grand.


And that person isn’t right. But the person that does look at it and go, you know what? I’m going to put everything into this. It’s a year or two years out of my life, but at the end of it, I’m going to see massive value.


Then that’s the person.

I think Prav and I used to talk about this for years. If if it was teachable or not. And we and travel, as you say to me, because yes, he’s got so many clients. Right. You said of all of his clients, you’re the one who is converting more and all of this. And and it’s interesting because now you’re sort of proving that it’s teachable.


We take two people straight out of college who are now producing extraordinary amounts of work. Yeah, quality work.

Some of these guys pay, you know, a gross in a hundred K plus a month to.

Three years.

Out, two or three years out. And so and I’m not saying that’s all me, by the way, some of these guys are special in their own right as well.

It’s picking them to be seeing that potential in some ways.

For me, it’s seeing the potential. It’s giving them the right pathways, given the right educational approach and then keeping nurturing them. Like just this week, I got all my associates. There was like 15 of them, and we had an evening of just talking about treatment and treatment uptake and and talking about ethical approaches to to consultations. And and, you know, and I do believe that all these little things that you can kind of discuss, give them tips, give them tricks, give them the things that have worked for me over the years. And I’m not saying I’m a golden goose, but what I can do.

You’re a resource, your resource for a patient when let’s say I present you someone right now, one of these student reps and I say, look, this, this lady, she’s she’s interested in becoming one of your PhDs. How good do you think you are at seeing sort of spotting potential in someone? And what are you looking for? Is it purely like, astute?


So I think the dental part that’s that’s not here.

There they teach that. Yeah. I think the key thing is attitude and I think so.

What is the attitude?

So for me it’s difficult, isn’t it? I’ll be honest. I’ve had people come to me and I get contacted all the time. I want I want to do this. I want to do that. And the first thing is you talk them through the process and the ones that are bit like, Oh, but I didn’t expect the salaries to be so low. I didn’t.

Help outside. Outside of the money. Outside the money.

But that is. Yeah, but that being that first bit tells you a lot because they don’t see that there’s no value, they’re not seeing the volume what you’re offering. Yeah. Yeah. Because they’re tying it to a monetary figure. Yeah. And if I said to the right person I’m going to pay you nothing for this year, the right person would say, I’m still.

Got your hand off, I’m.

Still coming because I know the value I will get out of. It is colossal against not getting paid for a year. I’m not saying anyone would take that, but what I’m saying to you is that tells you a lot right from the offset.

One thing that’s interesting, not not, not that they’re actually comparable. Yeah, but you could go pay an institution 50 grand and get an MSI, or you could go work in one of your schemes, get paid 50 grand, and both are education. There’s no doubt they’re both education. Of course, they’re different types of education, but both are education. And if you look at it as education, suddenly it seems like an amazing deal that you’d be paid to be educated.

Exactly. And then.

You’re right. That’s a big thing.

It’s a big thing. But then the next thing I always say is really when I’m talking to them and I’m and I will always say, I will always go with that. The person who’s the least keen, not least motivated. It’s wrong to say that, but the person that’s not so full of themselves, a little bit more humble, a little bit more kind of reserved. I want that person. It’s funny.

Because that’s not.

You, is it? No, And.

I’m not looking for little, little K.

I’m not looking for me because ultimate little mes, I’ll want to do what I do. And that’s not that’s not good conducive for the growing business. And so the odd little me is fine if you can control them, but you can’t sometimes control those guys and they get What are you saying? What are.

You saying? If, if you turned up and applied for a job with you. Yeah.

You wouldn’t give them. Well, probably wouldn’t take it because I’d be like, this guy is killing me off. Like, you know. Yeah, he’s. He’s like a fucking carbon copy of me, you know? And that’s, that is difficult because I’m not after that type of person. What I’m after is someone that’s loyal. I’m after someone that will respect the brand, will respect what I say. It’s not it’s not a regime. It’s it’s, it’s always a discussion. But I also.

I think overall, you’re easy to work for. Yeah, because I’ve spoken to enough of your team that I can see people generally happy.


And I just you do you try hard on that right? You try to be happy workplace. That’s actually part of Dental whole thing. Yeah. As the patient walks in, everyone’s happy and you can’t. People can’t pretend to be happy. It’s one of those things they have to be happy. So let’s talk about exit. So you’ve done this sort of hybrid thing. Some people just sell their business. Yeah, and they’re out. Other people say they sell their business and they sort of have to stay for two or three years, even though they’re kind of out. Yeah, but you’ve done this sort of half way thing where you’ve sold kind of half your business. Yeah. And it’s an interesting thing because someone said to me, Here, take some money, cash off the table and here’s a cash injection and taken right into the next level. It’s kind of in a way, actually one of the best ways of doing it, because you still you’re still playing the game.


You’re not high risk in the game.

Yeah. Like, listen, I’ve high balled my life. I suppose you would describe it for 20 years. You know, Sole trader never went to limited. Literally everything was on a PG personal guarantee. Obviously over those years we’ve paid all the loans and things up. But when I first started KISS, there was a million quid in Dad, you know, when I was 24. So at that point, you know, you are there’s a lot of pressure and you get to a point in 20 years on you thinking to yourself, well, of course, like, listen, pay, I’ve had a great life. Dentistry has afforded me a lovely life and I’m super thankful for the profession for that. But I’ve also got to understand is at some point, you know, you want some security, you want some things, you want cash in the bank, you want to.

You want return on the.

Sweat. Yeah, you do. And but then what you also don’t want at the tender age of 42 is to be like packing it all in and thinking, what am I going to do now?

And that’s a thought experiment. What would you do? Let’s say you’ve won the lottery and $1,000,000,000 landed in your in your account.

What would it be?

Thought experiment. Yeah. What would you do?

I think obviously I’d able to take things off the back burner a little bit, but I’d probably I’m not geared that way, so I’d probably still do ability I’d probably go on probably slightly more lavish holidays, maybe get private jets.

How could it get more lavish?

Just more private jets, I think. Just more private jets and bigger yachts. Well, private, but essentially, like, you know, it’s one of those that I’d still want to do bits. I’d want to work.

I’d probably. I know, I know, I know. But look, I’ve asked this question many times and people say holidays and they say charity. Yeah, they say that I kind of want to take those two things off the table.

I’ll put charity in as well.

Just for.

Sure. I said, What?

People tend to say those two things, and once you take those two things, most of them, by the way, just haven’t had a break. They’re working so hard. They just need a break. Yeah, but once you take those two things off, off the table, you know, knowing yourself is quite interesting because what would it what would some guy, you know Indeed. My partner. Yeah. He’d go running. Yeah. He’d do yoga all day if he could. Yeah. And some, some of us like maybe me and you. I don’t know if it’s you, but we’re not sure. I’m not sure.

What I always.

Be happiness for me, if I didn’t.

I always think like time taking. Getting back a bit of time is be happiness for me. You know, like I always think about it and I always wake up in the morning and have a personal training session at 6:00 and I finish my gym session at seven and then I shower and get ready. I have a little bit of a minute in bed and then I get to work and then I’ll do my patience. I’ll have all my meetings and then I’ll finish that and then I’ll go and see my kids and they’ll spend a couple of hours with them. And then that’s done and I’ll come home and I’ll eat and I’ll repeat. And that’s my.

Life. What time do you go to bed?

Usually like 11, 12:00. So it’s a long day. And it’s one of those days that if I could then say, actually I’ll have a personal training session at 8:00 in the morning and I’ll, I’ll maybe go to work at 12. Yeah. And I’ll have a bit of a chill that morning and then I might do some patients till two or three and then I’ll go pick the kids up from school instead. And it allows me, I suppose.

The interesting thing is you could just do that.

And then I could. I could. But I think the pressure and as you’ve said it, you know, I’ve done the partial sell. And so from that side everyone’s like, Well set is solid now and you know, financially pay. Yeah, I suppose I am, but I’m not mentally and I’m not mentally there because I still feel there’s things that need to be done. And now I’ve got new goals and new aspirations with the business and I don’t want to be a failure. I’ve never been a failure in anything I’ve done, so I don’t want to fucking fail at this.

So how do you how do you feel not being the ultimate boss boss anymore?

Like for me, like it’s funny, like, you know, some of the guys, the laughing little joke and like, Devil be like walking down the corridor and they’ll be like, Oh, there’s your boss there. Okay. And, and I’m a bit like.

Is clever enough to when something’s working to to leave.

It. Yeah I guess And listen.

I’m like psychologically I’m not talking about in this particular situation with that.

Yeah it could be.

Anyone else the fact that it’s not you making because you’re the kind of cat that I remember. Sometimes you would do something just out of the box. Crazy thing that I’m sure now with Dev you’d have to. You couldn’t do that.

You’ve got to ask the question. Yeah, but like you said, he is a bit like you said. He’s very, very understanding.

He’s, he’s clever enough to.

Lead and he knows, like Kailash, if you think this is going to work, let’s do it. Let’s roll with it. But you got us the. You know? Uh huh. And that’s tough because it’s tough. Yeah, of course.

It’s nice to hear that.

Because, you know, I have been the king and ruler of all of all the things I’ve ever wanted and done in my business for ever. And like, if it went really well, then I got a lovely pat on the back by myself, and it went fucking terrible.

The thing is, though, the thing we were talking about those different ways of getting out and in a way we were saying, This is the best way. Yeah. Everything has a downside. And the downside of this particular thing is that that’s it. You do have to ask.

You’ve got to ask the question. And, you know, like for instance, we we wanted to do the Bramhall Clinic and, and you know, we put the business plan together and you now have to get approval for beauty and, and dental beauty needs get approval from EDG. And I’m like, I just want to fucking build a clinic. Yeah. I don’t understand why we can’t just build this clinic.

You know, and old.

That’s my old self going back, and let’s just sign the lease. I couldn’t understand what’s going on. And it’s those things that you kind of feel like not held back by because eventually it all goes through and they trust these guys. Now, trust me because the original, the last next two squat clinics have been doing really well. And so we’re in positive EBITDA with them and they’re like blown away by the figures and they’re saying, Hey, let’s roll with it now, which is great for me, because then it allows me to run with my idea and but I still had to prove myself. Yeah, And that’s the tough bit and that’s the tough bit that puts the pressure back on. And so I do have to wake up at 6:00 in the morning and I do still need to get to work for that clock. And so I don’t have an I can’t take back that time at all.

Well, it’s a massive pleasure to see you at an event again. I remember we used to come to practice all the time together.


I mean, you took a little break while you built this little, little empire, right? But as the world’s biggest enlightened user, I congratulate you for making it back. But now proud of you. Did proud of you for what you’re going for. You didn’t need to. You could just sit back on on a on a boat if you wanted to. So it’s interesting that you’re going for it.

Yeah. And I think that’s just my nature, isn’t it? And so I think when it’s in your nature, I’ll be bored. Or I’d be sad, actually, if I. If I sold the whole thing and then either saw it flourish, that would upset me without me or the other way or the other way. And then I think, like, that was a waste. It was a loss. I should have kept hold of that because that was my baby and and undermined realm. You know, it it grew and flourished.

So amazing, man. Thanks for doing that.

Do you this is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

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