Month: January 2020

Transcript

Payman: Hi, guys. Welcome to the podcast. Today’s guest was Elaine Mo, real rising star in dentistry. What she said to us about the way that she talks to patients and the way that she learned what she does, talks to people from when she was a kid working in her parents restaurant and then her love of football. And I think, you know, she’s going to be one of these people who we’re going to see more and more of going forward. What do you takeaway from it, Prav?

Prav: I think for me, it resonates with me growing up working in the shop, corner shop.

Payman: Yeah yeah I remember that, yeah.

Prav: Her communication skills, her chameleon-esque approach to communication certainly developed from that customer facing role as my own did. I think the big takeaway from this is that she is going to be a successful business woman. Watch this space, guys.

Payman: Yeah, whatever she does.

Prav: She’s got all the ingredients necessary to be super super successful in business. Enjoy.

Payman: Enjoy.

Elaine: My motto, to my nurses as well, is when patients get angry or kick off at you just smile. No one can shout at a smiling face.

Elaine: That’s it. You can’t. Even if they’re having a go at you just smile and no one can say anything. No one can be mean to a smiling face.

Speaker 4: This is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to go one-on-one with emerging leaders in dentistry.

Speaker 4: Your hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman: Elaine, thanks a lot for doing this.

Elaine: No problem.

Payman: The reason why you’re here is interesting, is it? I’ve always seen you at the mastication group thing.

Elaine: Yeah and the parties.

Payman: And the parties. And at the event and the courses.

Payman: I’ve always been impressed by you at such a young age knowing as much as you know about teeth and and I’m sure we’ll get into that, but you were bringing books for me for that dentist in Iraq. We had a little chat and I thought, “What an interesting person,” I thought, “Let’s have her on the show.”

Payman: I said to Prav, “I’ve got Elaine.”

Payman: He said, “Who’s Elaine?”

Prav: Yeah. I know who…

Elaine: This gal’s Chinese [inaudible]

Prav: I know the the name Elaine Mo because it pops up on Facebook and social media every now and then but other then that, I don’t know a lot about you. Obviously Payman said you’re a course-oholic.

Elaine: Kind of.

Prav: Let’s find out more about you.

Payman: Give us your back story. Where were you born?

Elaine: I was raised and born and bred in a little town northwest, outside of Liverpool. I call it the posh outskirts just to make me feel better. Not many people know it unless you’re a keen golfer but it’s a town called Birkdale and I lived right next to a golf course, grew up there. Born and bred there. I was there until university age, before I moved down to London, see the big wide world.

Payman: University was London, yeah?

Elaine: I went to Barts in 2007 and I was there until 2012. And then I tend to stay in London.

Payman: What kind of a school kid were you? A swatty school kid or not? Were you straight A’s student?

Elaine: I was.

Prav: Oh God.

Elaine: I was part of the little naughty one as well. The naughty straight A student.

Payman: Oh.

Elaine: To be fair, even in Liverpool. My brothers were the very stay at home ones and I was one who always wanted to go out.

Payman: I’m feeling a bit inferior now. Got this Oxford graduate on one side and this straight A student on the other.

Elaine: I’ve lost all that brain power now. I can’t even do basic maths anymore.

Payman: It’s an interesting question because my brother was a straight A student and he was great at school but not very good at the workplace. And I’m not saying that’s necessarily the case but–

Elaine: I think I got lucky in the sense that, I know I was a straight A, but I started working when I was 14, 15. So I used to help my parents out and by the time I was doing my GCSE’s and A Levels, I was actually on weekends minding the restaurant as well. So that my mom could take a random Saturday, Sunday off. So I did have quite a few years in working in restaurants and I think my mom wanted to push me out there. Because at the end of the day, speaking to people, she kind of realised that that was probably what’s more important. My brothers were too lazy, they couldn’t be bothered. She was thinking I’m the one whose thumb is easy to bend.

Elaine: That helped quite a lot actually.

Payman: I bet.

Prav: What do you think working in the restaurant taught you about dentistry and working with patients? What are the parallels there in terms of when you were fourteen you were there? I was brought up in a typical corner shop environment. I was serving customers from the ages ten to twelve. I was telling people they were too young to buy cigarettes and alcohol yet despite being eleven years old myself. And that taught me a lot about communicating with people of different backgrounds, ages, and everything and it’s become a good communicator.

Prav: Can you draw some parallels from what you learned growing up in the restaurant business industry, family business and how that’s helped you become a better dentist today?

Elaine: I think it’s definitely moulded, not particularity as a dentist but as a person in general. It’s all about service at a restaurant, it’s the same as a patient journey and at the end of the day, you are making customers feel special just as you make your patients feel special.

Elaine: For me, if I go in a restaurant, they can have the most amazing food. Just like a dentist can do the most amazing filling but at the end of the day, it’s a filling. The food is food and actually what moulds it is the experience itself. If you’ve had a bad experience coming in and your waitress isn’t addressing you and not there to serve you, then automatically you’re at a negative. It doesn’t matter how good the food is that you serve, it’s the customer service that’s lacking.

Prav: So true.

Elaine: And you know what? At the end of the day, for my patients it’s… there are a lot of dentists out there who, even though we’re at the same level, we can provide the same filling but what makes it different is, asking the patient how they are, their family, making them feel at home and actually being a person rather than your dentist and being someone that you can actually–

Payman: One big difference is, in a restaurant you can see the food, taste the food. Often the patient has no idea what’s going on in their own mouth.

Elaine: No.

Payman: So the communication service side of it is even more important than it is. Because you know my personal bug bearer is when you go to a restaurant, beautiful décor, excellent service, average food. That really really pisses me off. I’d rather it was good food and terrible service to tell you the truth. If I had to choose between those two but in dentistry, the patients got no idea what’s really going on in their mouth.

Elaine: They really don’t know. I think this is why photography… people say, “Take photos for you know, protect yourself against you getting sued.” Actually no, the most important thing is, for me, is patient education. Because for me, if you take pictures of different steps, show them exactly what you’re doing, even if it’s not the proudest filing you’ve done, you’re willing to show the patient which to them means, “Oh wow if she’s taking pictures then it must be good enough to show people which means that it must be at a certain level.”

Elaine: There’s nothing to hide and patients don’t know what they’re looking at but they pretend they do and you show them.

Prav: So what’s your philosophy like? If I was to come for a consultation with you… I think I sat in 100 plus consultations with dentist. Just observing, advising, and all the rest of it. Everyone’s different so if I was to come in and have a consultation with you, what would that experience be? If you could just talk me through start to finish.

Elaine: I’ve got a whole half day lecture on this if you want.

Payman: Have you?

Elaine: Yeah.

Prav: Wow.

Elaine: I worked on patient experience quite a bit and developed a protocol over 24 months of trying to kind of work what works in my hands and being systematic and doing the same thing over for different patients yet tailoring it to them. And went in my latest practise… One of my principals sat me down and was like, “Do you want to do a half day in my course? Because actually, we can teach the clinical side but we need people to actually take up that treatment.”

Elaine: So what I think nowadays people lack is the communication and the soft skill side because we can do courses on every single clinical part but what’s the point if you can’t get that procedure in your chair? And so for me, my focus is a lot on actually educating the patient so that they understand what we’re looking for. I can tell you you need a filling, I can tell you you need a cleaning but why? Is that important to you? And I think it’s important for the patient to realise why we’re doing it rather than what they need to be done. Because people want to know, “How will it affect me?” And it’s all about what will happen to me–

Payman: So when you sat in those consults…

Prav: Sure.

Payman: Go on, if you have to break them, some of the more–

Prav: Yeah so if you need to break them down, certainly I see a group of dentist who first of all, are not natural people people, right? So sometimes you walk in, you have a conversation with someone, “Hey how’s it going, how are you, all right…” And sometimes they’ve been taught by various individuals and you can see they come in and go, “So, how did you get here today? Have you got a day off work? What do you do for a living?” It’s almost like they’re going through a robotic system rather than them know how to just converse with people in general. If you were at a bar or you’re out and about, it’s the same situation.

Prav: I think what you touched upon then which was informing the patients, understanding them and getting the reason actually what’s in it for you rather than what’s in it for me as in the dentist. And a lot of people miss that. They talk too technical and so you end up in a situation where either, they’re talking technical and the patient hasn’t got a clue what’s going on or when the patient’s telling their story, they just miss key elements of the patient, maybe talking about this missing tooth and stuff and they’ll say, “Yeah but I haven’t been a dentist for fifteen years, I’m really nervous by the way.” And then the dentist just goes in, “Okay so for that missing tooth you’ve got a couple of options. You got bridge, you got implants.” So on and so forth.

Payman: The nuances.

Prav: You have just missed the most fundamental point of this consultation. I’d like to learn a little bit more about your system. Even if you could just give me like the top five things that you sort of systematically go through.

Elaine: Absolutely. The first thing is if you were a new patient is actually, for me, I think the importance is that the dentist greeting that patient outside the surgery.

Payman: Agreed.

Elaine: Because at the end of the day, you’re out of the clinical zone and also you’re actually interested in the patient and the patient feels special because, “Oh the dentist has come to get me not the nurse.”

Prav: Great advice. Brilliant.

Elaine: The other one is a three question rule. So on the way to the surgery, ask three questions which are nothing to do with teeth. “How was your day been so far? Did you find us okay? How did you come in contact with us, how did you know about us?” Any three questions. If they got their shopping, “Where have you been shopping?” Anywhere. Just to give ideas. Three nonclinical questions. That breaks the ice.

Prav: Of course. Great advice.

Elaine: When the patient comes in normally, make them feel comfortable, pop their jacket up and actually before you do anything is explain what you’re actually going to do. And the patient, “No I’m here for a checkup.”

Elaine: By the way, I hate the work checkup. Because for me it insinuates something that’s fast and is just a once over. It’s not thorough enough.

Prav: Sure. So what do you use?

Elaine: I use different words depending where I’m at, an examination, a comprehensive assessment, total oral health screen, these are words that I use. Because I feel like it’s kind of giving a full thorough check and you know what? Explain what you’re going to do. I explain what that involves and that it may involve x-rays and pictures. And then I tell them when I get to the end of it, we’ll get the pictures up in x-rays and I’ll go through it all together with you.

Elaine: That kind of shuts the patient up while you’re doing your thing so they don’t stop you. And actually when you do things systematically, in a way that you do it day in and day out, and I’ve done these exams hundreds and hundreds of times and I’m doing it in the same order, in a way that they can understand and show them with pictures, you find that your treatment uptake is massive.

Elaine: I think another tip is at the end of everything is, “Have you understood everything that I’ve said or have I confused you?” Patients naturally like to be involved.

Prav: You actually ask that question, “Or have I confused you?”

Elaine: Yeah all the time at the end.

Prav: Brilliant.

Payman: That’s a good call.

Elaine: At the end. Every time. And they’re like, “No no it’s been very thorough.”

Elaine: But you know what, when you get to do this, and on the part of the course that I teach, it doesn’t take long. My new patient exams are 40 to 45 minutes. My routine 20 to 30, dependent on how stable they are. And the thing is, it doesn’t take long but you’ve covered all the aspects that you need to and the way that my templates are set out is the order that I’ve done it so my nurses know my checkup, our examinations. They just know what I’m going to say.

Payman: What’s the key difference between your new patient… I’m not talking about from the clinical perspective, from the communication perspective.

Elaine: It’s learning who they are, what they’re interested in and knowing your patient. Routine patients, I quite often have a pop up note, which I love and nurses are like, “What the hell are you doing?” Like it says, “Is a Liverpool fan, has a dog called Freddy.” Things like this. Before they come in, I can ask them and they’ll automatically they can feel, “You remember me from last time. You know that I’m a golfer. How do you still remember that?” I cheat.

Prav: Makes them feel special right?

Elaine: It’s a cheat. But with the new patients you kind of have to find that to put something on a pop up note.

Payman: You have to accelerate that sort of, rapport isn’t it? With them.

Elaine: Absolutely. And the thing is a lot of them will be through word of mouth and there are social media aspects that I do do occasionally but I’m not one that pushes it. For me, I don’t have time to do a post every single hour and talk to patients. So a lot of it is through word of mouth.

Payman: Actual word of mouth.

Elaine: Yeah from patients.

Payman: Old school word of mouth.

Elaine: Old school. But there the best though. And when you’ve got that, it’s a massive positive because automatically you’re in the good book straightaway so you just have to maintain that.

Prav: Do you know I think one of the biggest problems that dentist struggle with is talking about money. Some people are really comfortable with it, some people are not. You’ve run a half day course. Can you just give us a few little gems in terms of how to become more comfortable just talking about money and being comfortable presenting your value to the patient?

Elaine: For me, I’ve established with the patient what is going on and what they need in order to have a healthy mouth or whatever they want to achieve. Once they realise, “Actually that is what I need,” or “That is what I want.” Then you go on to fees and cost.

Elaine: I think at the end of the day, I think dentist do devalue themselves and I think it’s not helped by the National Health Service because everything that’s come down. For me, when my family abroad… I don’t think people in this country realise how lucky they are. Anywhere abroad, the fees are much higher.

Prav: Off the scale.

Elaine: Yeah. But people pay. I think dentist just have to value themselves in the sense that, they are paying for courses. They need to recoup that and actually you’re not just providing a filling, you’re providing that how many hours and years of knowledge that you have as well to do that.

Elaine: For me, once the patient has established why they need something done or why they want something done, then you go into fee scale and explain what it involves.

Elaine: A lot of the patients that I see may not have come into private practise where I, well I’m fully private, but they may have been seen at National Health Service in the past so quite often you have to explain what it involves, whatever filling it involves, how long it will be. Naturally I do get quite a few people going, “Oh an hour for a filling?” But actually if you show them pictures and say, “There’s two types of fillings, I could just blob it in.” Or “I could make it really look natural and beautiful, it’s entirely up to you but for me, I want to give you the best care that I can provide which is the natural beautiful look and I’m not happy settling on anything less”

Elaine: For me, all I’m going to provide is option B. I’m not going to give you option A because I don’t believe in option A.

Prav: Got yeah.

Elaine: And then the patients actually will have trust in you because you’ve got confidence in yourself. I think you have to believe yourself and be able to sell it. There’s no point selling something that you don’t believe it.

Payman: Of course.

Prav: And they can see that right? They can see it a mile away. If you’re nervous when you’re talking about money, you’re hesitating or whatever, they can see that a mile away.

Elaine: I learned in that past that when you do cases, just a say number and do not give any expression. Just look at the patient in the face and see what their reaction is. And if you give them five, ten seconds, you’ll be surprised how many people just go, “Oh okay.” And they don’t react. I think dentists make it a big deal because they’re scared in themselves and body language is a huge thing.

Payman: You’ll obviously quite naturally talking about money and not worried about it. And I see what you’re saying, Prav, that you got to believe in the treatment you’re offering but there are some people who fully believe in what they’re offering and yet when it comes to the money conversation, seize up.

Prav: Totally.

Payman: Is it teachable or not? I know Ashley Ladds has a whole big thing about teaching people to talk about this but is it… Have you noticed that it’s teachable?

Prav: I think I’ve seen dentists who have been on a journey with me for like ten, eleven years, and they’ve gone from a point where they go in and they’re so robotic to becoming more and more comfortable. I truly believe that some people, you’ve either got or you’ve not. I really do. But I also believe it is teachable and coachable but you’re not going to convert somebody who is square, straight, clinical, into an overnight Elaine Mo, Kailif Solanki. Do you see what I mean? Someone who’s just got that natural flair and does it effortlessly without training, right? How much training have you had talking about money?

Payman: Years of it in the restaurant.

Elaine: Years of restaurant and that’s about it.

Elaine: The thing is, if there’s a will to do it, I think it can be taught. And the thing is, for me, I think personal development is a huge thing which is so understated in anything. And I think dentist are the worst because we’re already bad a business because all we know is how to do protocols and go step one, two, three, four, without thinking outside the box essentially. I think personal development is one of those things because we’re so worried about what others think and treating our patients and what patients think that actually we forget about ourselves.

Elaine: By developing yourself and your confidence, you don’t realise that that will exude with whatever you do.

Prav: Totally. And I think the point I was trying to make, it takes time. You can’t just overnight become someone who’s naturally like you, who’s got that gift right? It takes a long time to develop those skills and that personal development, that perseverance, going on those courses, practising , is what’s going to get you to that position where you are comfortable doing things that you’re uncomfortable with.

Prav: I do think that having the restaurant background… you know when I talked to you earlier about what are the parallels you’ve learned, I’m sure there’s tonnes there that is just by osmosis, creates the person you are today.

Elaine: It’s not even just the whole customer patient journey. It’s learning to work with your staff and actually treating them with respect because when you have staff who are working in a happy place, they will bend over backwards and do favours and you will do that for each other. Automatically everyone’s enjoying the vibe already. If there’s tension, people notice it from a mile away.

Elaine: So just as you would work with the staff waitresses to get over a busy night, just as your nurses and your receptionist’s is just as important. If you are working and you have the same mentality, it’s fantastic because patients will see that and they see the friendly nature and it’s always happy.

Payman: Prav always jokes about this office, he always says “You have this place like a youth hostel.” Doesn’t look like they do much work here. But there is an element of it… You know I don’t run my team like an army like you run your team, I’m sure. There is a big element of that but there is another element of it which is to speak to Elaine’s point. I want the people to be super happy when they pick up that phone when a customer of ours calls. And they got to be happy before the phone rings so that they are happy when the phone does ring.

Prav: I truly believe that whichever team members you’ve got, that they need to be spending 80% of their day in their zone of genius. My zone of genius is strategy, coming up with ideas and planning campaigns.

Payman: Where you feel most in the zone.

Prav: My unique ability, right? Where I feel like, “I am in my zone.” My zone of genius is not implement and executing, writing content. That’s not my zone of genius. I hate doing that. So the idea is that I want my stuff that I’m not great at, for it to be someone else’s inspirational motivational unique ability zone of genius. And I believe that that’s the key to them being happy in the workplace. Meeting their needs really. I think what you said there is something that most dentist don’t even think about. We all focus on keeping our patients happy but what about the support team?

Elaine: It’s one of the most important things and you know what? It just takes one little bit of tension in the team just to ruin everything.

Payman: Ruin the vibe.

Elaine: Absolutely. Because then it affects patients, staff for the whole rest of the day even this one little thing. So I think keeping moral up, keeping the team happy and actually being chilled out and friendly with them, it makes the whole practise nonclinical and automatically it becomes a friendly approachable practise. For me, I couldn’t be anywhere without the team that we currently have in all the different sites that I work at. I think I’ve got a fantastic team right now but that’s also credit to the principals and managers who actually maintain it. And you know what? Sometimes they do deserve to be spoiled. Sometimes I will bring in gifts for everyone and everything but that’s just all a matter of being–

Payman: I think it’s even more nuanced than that, isn’t it? I haven’t practised for a while now but when I did, the number of nurses that said to me, “You’re the first dentist ever to make me a coffee.” I couldn’t believe that. The number of people who said to me, “You’re the only one who says ‘Thank you’ at the end of the day.” Couldn’t believe it. I mean it was a few years ago, I think things must have got a bit better by now.

Elaine: But you know what, it’s the appreciation and it’s the actual… I know that a lot of people might secretly appreciate it but nurses and staff, they probably don’t know that you’re thinking that. They’re not mind readers. Sometimes they just need that little bit just to… For you to acknowledge them. And at the end of the day, it’s a bit like your patients, how good do you feel when the patients acknowledged your hard work. You probably get that one out of fifteen, twenty patients, who turn around and go, “Really, thank you for that.” Or take the time to write a review. How good does that make you feel?

Elaine: So why are we not pushing that onto our staff members as well.

Prav: Great advice.

Payman: What’s your working arrangement right now? Which practises are you in right now?

Elaine: So I’m in multiple private practise sites so I spend part of my time in the private practise in Wimbledon where we are a specialist practise and we’ve got a great team of principales there. It’s pretty much general dentistry.

Elaine: I work part time–

Payman: What’s the name of that practise?

Elaine: That’s Ridgeway Dental.

Payman: Ridgwaty Dental.

Elaine: Yep. I work in for Smile Hub who are a little mini independent in corporate. We basically base ourselves on sites in law firms and banks. My particularly site is in a Magic Circle law firm. I know people are like, “What the hell are you doing?”

Payman: Every single patient’s a lawyer.

Elaine: Pretty much yeah.

Prav: Wow.

Payman: Which by the way, I find… I was near lawyers too. They’re great patients.

Elaine: Absolutely fantastic. You know what? When you build up that rapport, they are fantastic patients because they’re really highly educated and they really understand everything you say.

Payman: And the last thing they’re going to do is sue you actually. As it happens, interestingly.

Elaine: It’s actually probably one of the least stressful job I have. But they–

Payman: And can someone walk in off the street into that building or that’s purely for the employees?

Elaine: No so it’s just employees only.

Payman: And what are the perks… So they’ve got dentists, what else do that have in their lovely offices?

Elaine: They have physios, they have the High Street doctors, they’ve got a gym, they’ve got their sleeping pods, they’ve got onsite canteens.

Payman: Sleeping pods?

Elaine: Yeah, they have. Apparently full.

Prav: Wow.

Payman: Have you used them?

Elaine: No because apparently they’re always fully booked up. I’m a bit like, “What is going on?”

Payman: I’m going to have to put sleeping pods in the new office.

Elaine: I know. New idea.

Payman: What do they look like? Have you seen them? Do they take a lot of space?

Elaine: No they’re just like little individual rooms.

Payman: Oh actual rooms. Actual rooms.

Elaine: Yeah actual mini ones.

Payman: But there are such things as pods.

Prav: I’ve seen some of them. Yeah like curved and yeah.

Payman: Yeah. I’m going to get pods, man.

Elaine: They have everything, there’ve got their own little newsagents-

Payman: How’s the food?

Elaine: Amazing.

Payman: Is it?

Elaine: Yeah.

Payman: Amazing like, you know your food.

Elaine: I do. There is like–

Payman: It’s free?

Elaine: It’s heavily subsidised so yep it’s very cheap. You go in and there must be a company of about 50 to 70 chefs or kitchen members.

Payman: 50 kitchen members?

Prav: What the?

Payman: How many employees are there in the building?

Elaine: About 3000.

Payman: Whoa.

Elaine: 3000 staff members. So inside they have different sections as well in this canteen so they’ve got their own oven pizza, they’ve got the Nando’s grill, they’ve got salad, everything you could imagine and on Thursday nights it turns into a bar. Music…

Payman: It’s making our office ping pong table seem a bit crap.

Payman: But I guess the point is they want the staff to be even more comfortable there than they are at home, to stay longer. Is that the point?

Elaine: For them, an hour is a lot of money to them so if you imagine a dental appointment even if it’s for a routine examination, that’s half a day gone if they’re probably going home, making that appointment, coming back. Whereas they could just go downstairs. It’s actually quite funny because we charge for any missed appointments because they really have no excuse, being upstairs.

Payman: Yeah.

Elaine: And usually it’s because a client has contacted them for a last minute meeting so we’ve had cases where quite a lot of them invoice their clients for missing their dental appointment and passed the FTA charges on.

Elaine: It makes me laugh.

Payman: Lawyers, man.

Elaine: I was like, “If only we could do that.”

Payman: Yeah

Prav: If only.

Payman: You should charge then the FTA fee at their own hourly rate.

Elaine: It’s funny because–

Payman: Do you get the big wigs as well, the partners and that sort? You must do, right?

Elaine: Yeah they are my favourites. They are, I think, they’re just so chilled out. They’re just less stressed but the partners are some of my favourite people to treat. There’s quite a lot of them and they are all so lovely. It’s really funny, having treated them for a few years now, I think we could learn a lot from them because, it’s funny, I’ve had great patients who I loved seeing and you know, you see them at canteen and they’ll come up and give you a hug, say “Hi.” Sometimes I’ll see them and do them a little favour, you know just say, “Yeah that’s fine, we’ll sort it out next time.” It’s amazing, there’s actually a few that turn around and go, “I don’t expect you to do that for free. You should be charging me.” Why don’t we do that as dentists? As dentists it’s like, “That is so weird.”

Elaine: But I think for lawyers, they understand because they’re charging per hour and you think you’re doing them an actual favour because you think, “If I charge them for this temporary they’re coming back for something, they might find it a bit iffy.” Yet these are the guys who turn around and go, “Why did you do that for free?”

Prav: They expect to pay, right?

Elaine: Exactly.

Prav: Wow.

Payman: And word of mouth in a building where everyone’s working, it must be on fire. Actually my wife works in a similar situation.

Elaine: It’s hit an miss. You just have to make sure you’re doing really well.

Payman: Yeah you’re right, bad word of mouth. Go on, give us a bad word of mouth story. Go on.

Elaine: Well usually the bad word of mouth stories are the patient’s that you really don’t want to treat anyway. Usually there are cases where I’ve learned to say no. I can’t meet these expectations, certain times where I’ve found patient’s just automatically you can not get on with everyone. No matter how friendly you are, you can not get on with everyone. Some people you just naturally feel that afinity to, some people you don’t. And actually if you say, “No I’m not going to do this.” You have to do what you believe in because the worst thing that you could do is be pushed by a patient to do something you don’t want to do.

Payman: But then because it’s an office, did that bad feeling spread beyond that?

Elaine: Not that I know of but this is more outside of the office. I never had it in the law firm. It’s other places where you kind of know they’ve seen other dentist quite a few times before, they’ve just kind of said a lot of negative words. It’s the last thing you want. And when you decline to treat, they get a bit touchy, don’t they?

Payman: Sure. On the opposite side of it, you were telling you did Invisalign on one person in the office and then every single person in the office–

Elaine: Yeah it was insane. So we as a thank you, sometimes give a ten pound voucher for referral. They don’t always know about it, we just send it out randomly and there was one girl who I did Invisalign on, next minute she sends a friend who sends another friend. And then after about five patients, I get the sixth one in. I’m like, “Oh are you guys all that same too because I see that you’re referrals are all within the same ring.” And they’re like, “Oh yeah we all sit at the same desk. There’s only one person who hasn’t got your Invisalign on at the moment at my desk.” And I’m like, “What are they doing? Get them in now.”

Elaine: But it’s quite funny because yeah, it’s hit or miss. A lot of the time, these patients are young, they’re usually at the firm for couple of years, few years and then they leave. Most of the time they’re actually quite stable and it’s more the cosmetic treatment that they want which is what’s common now.

Prav: What’s the biggest clinical mistake you’ve ever made and what did you learn from it?

Payman: Ooh.

Elaine: There’s been quite a few. I think everyone would be lying if we said that we didn’t make mistakes. You know what? I’ve got to put my hand up and say, “You know, a few years ago I may have drilled the wrong tooth.” But you know what? Explain to the patient and if you got that good rapport–

Payman: Was it a left and right issue?

Elaine: Yes it was because the x-ray was flipped wrong and I just didn’t check and that was my fault. But this comes back to how you and your patient get on. Put your hand up and, “I’m so sorry, this is what’s happened. I take full responsibility.” But the thing is, if patient’s like you and you treated them with respect in the past and honesty, it doesn’t go anywhere.

Payman: So what happened, they just let it go?

Elaine: They were like, “Oh yeah, don’t worry about it. Things happen.”

Payman: How much had you drilled before you realised?

Elaine: It was literally not much. I was like, “Where is it?”

Payman: Oh so let me tell you my little story then. Because same thing, back then the x-rays were marked left and right by the nurse. The patient had no fillings at all so it was an OPG and there it was, left and right. It was a seven. I started drilling and I couldn’t find any cavities. I actually stopped and said to the patient, “It’s interesting, it’s such a big hole in the x-ray but I’m not getting to it.” So I went a bit further. New patient it was as well, that was the problem. And then realised at that point. And she was upset. I put my hands up and said exactly what had happened, she was upset. I think she had a payout by my defence organisation I think it was 2000 pounds, back then. Today it would probably be a million.

Elaine: It’s interesting because I’ve got a colleague who again, I teach with, and he’s put his hand up and said, “You know what, I’ve been known to do endo on the wrong tooth.” But the thing that saves you is how you’ve treated that patient in the past, isn’t that right?

Prav: The relationship, yeah.

Elaine: If someone did the mistake for me, if I really liked them, I still wouldn’t sue them. I wouldn’t.

Payman: No me either.

Elaine: And the thing is, when that happens you’ve got this break down of this relationship of someone who you’ve trusted and you just don’t. You’d just rather not because, you just don’t sue people that you like. It just doesn’t work.

Prav: I think there’s lots of people out there who’ve done exactly the same thing and I think it’s very honest of you just to put your hand up and say, “Do you know what, I’d be lying if I said I hadn’t done that and this is what I’ve done.” Can you just cast me back to that moment when it happened.

Elaine: Panic.

Prav: How you felt and what your thought process was. I think there’s people out there listening who are either currently in that situation or are going to be in that situation at sometime and if you could just coach someone through.

Elaine: I mean, panic does set in.

Prav: Okay.

Elaine: This is when you look at your nurse and you think, “Jesus.” The nurse is like, “What’s wrong?” And then it’s like a little nudge on the side and you’re like, “Well.” But then at the end of the day, you have to repair, fill it back up and actually say to the patient, “I’ve drilled into this tooth and I can’t see what it is and I’ve just realised what the mistake is. I’m really sorry, didn’t check this fully beforehand.”

Elaine: You know what? Honesty is actually the best policy. If you try to hide that, you will dig yourselves in a well and you can not get out of that.

Payman: You’re in a much bigger hole.

Prav: Much bigger.

Elaine: Much bigger hole. That trust that that patient has is gone because you’ve lied to them. If you’re honest with them, that trust is maintained and shows your integrity. You will get the odd patients who will try and milk that but a lot of people out there are actually nice people. They’re not out there to get you.

Payman: I don’t want to get on a pedestal, you know my high horse or anything but at the end of the day, if we’re saying we’re professionals, that is the moment professionalism comes in.

Elaine: Absolutely. And it’s your duty to explain and tell them. I’ve known people in the past, fantastic physicians, people on top of their game and it’s like, “I’ve endoed the wrong tooth, I’ve taken out the wrong tooth.” How did you manage it? And if those who have done it in a similar way of honesty, a lot of the time it doesn’t go anywhere.

Payman: Yeah.

Elaine: The problem is now is people get panicky too easily and the main thing is just to stay calm and don’t get flustered because when you get flustered, you make the patient feel like it’s a bigger deal than it is. If you’re able to stay calm and go, “You know what, this does happen. I’m really sorry it happened to you. It’s not common, it’s just a mistake.” It’s very calm.

Payman: It’s interesting how quickly you came up… because me and Prav were talking about that Black Box Thinking, do you know about that?

Elaine: Yes.

Payman: Yeah so we were talking about that.

Elaine: The book?. Is it Matt Syed?

Prav: Yeah.

Elaine: That one, yeah.

Payman: So we were saying… For anyone who doesn’t know about it, is when a plane crashes they look at the black box. And then they don’t blame anyone, they try to learn from the crash and make everyone understand what the learning outcomes are. But in medicine it’s always a big cover up and no one’s taking the blame. Blame is actually the problem.

Payman: So we said, me and Prav said… I was telling him about my incident, my left and right incident and I was telling him every dentist has got one or two like that.

Elaine: They’ve be lying if they didn’t.

Payman: But what a great learning resource because for me, it was always check the left and right are correct, the nurses marked it correctly. If we could get all of those out to every… you know if everyone in this room said, “Here’s my black box story.” But when we thought about it, we said, “It’s never going to happen.” Without it being anonymous, no one will say it.

Payman: It’s so interesting that you just said it nice and easy.

Elaine: It’s interesting because I think the good… I actually got a thank you from that patient as well, bizarrely. After that happened I was a bit like, “Oh my God, what do I do?” So I addressed it at a practise meeting because we go though mishaps and how we can change it. So then we ended up saying, “Actually no, dentist’s will check all the x-rays. Nurses won’t upload them. Dentists will save them to make sure.

Payman: You actually did the black box.

Prav: That’s great.

Payman: I love it.

Elaine: I actually sent an email back to the patient and go, “So I’m really sorry that happened. To ensure that, I’ve actually taken to minimise it and this is how we done.” And so I sent a thank you email. I said, “Thank you for helping us to improve what we can and for helping to prevent this happening again.” And the patient got a thank you. So they felt that they had done something. So if in doubt, if anything bad happens, thank the patient afterwards for doing something that will prevent it happening to other people because they feel like they did something positive.

Elaine: Because I would feel great. It’s like that little charity thing as well. You feel good for doing something positive and the patient feels special and at the end of the day, that’s what it’s all about.

Prav: Elaine, I’ve been sat here speaking to you with Pay for about 35, 40 minuets and it’s so so clear to me that you have business, entrepreneurship, coursing through your blood. The way you deal with mistakes, the way you then go in and systemize it, the way you systemized your consultations, and the fact that you were born and brought up in a restaurant environment. Do you have any plans in the future of opening your own practise or has that ever crossed your mind?

Elaine: I don’t know. It always was at the very start.

Payman: Of course it has. Are you mad? Of course it has.

Elaine: It always was at the very start and as I’ve worked in dentistry, my mind always changes. I think being down south, yes there’s a lot of competition at the end of the day, down south. The problem that I have with ownership now is seeing these rules and regulations because I know that no matter how not involved you are, you’re always going to in involved. Those weekends will be gone. It’s the clinical issue. It’s not the running business issue. It’s the staffing issue.

Elaine: And this is what I’ve seen with my parents growing up. The biggest headache is actually managing the staff. Because once someone’s ill it’s like-

Prav: It’s always something, right?

Payman: Aren’t you saying she’s the kind of person who would thrive on that pressure?

Prav: Yeah and look, thousands of dentists I’ve met over the last eleven years, right? It’s clear to me that you’re unique, different, special, call it whatever you want, right? You have definitely got that.

Payman: Is it?

Prav: For sure.

Payman: I like that.

Elaine: Means a lot coming from you.

Prav: You’ve definitely got that… call it super power, call it whatever you want, right? It’s clear you’re a people person, you’re very easy to chat to, you’ll make any patient feel instantly comfortable like that. You just described a mistake, a clinical mistake that you made and you turned that into a protocol. No dentist your age does that. No dentist that I work with in a business does that currently but you think differently. You’ve been brought up in a similar environment to me. Okay you’re in a restaurant, me in a corner shop, taxes, this that and the other. But business was coursing through our blood.

Prav: I was destined to be involved in business. I look at you and I think you are a thriving, successful future business woman. Without question.

Elaine: Growing up where, yes I grew up where both my parents were in business and whether it’s through restaurants or my dad delved when I was young into property in China and had his own successful little empire there as well. It has always been part of my life. At the end of the day, my parents have always been their own boss. At a young age when I was thrown into that kind of atmosphere, it was weird because I was sixteen, seventeen and I was paying the wages on weekends because my mom had the day off. If any complaints came my way, I had to deal with it when I was sixteen.

Elaine: When you’re forced to do that at a young age, it really doesn’t embed it into you. I think now when I look back, one of the biggest impacts on my life is probably my schooling as well. Where I think back then it was like, “School is so annoying.” They expect me to stay behind doing this and that. Now when I look back, I’m so grateful I went to a fantastic school where they push you to go further.

Elaine: It’s interesting, I sat down with a few of my friends the other day and we said that we could actually see from mile away the people who came out from that school, the majority of them are pushed to go further. It’s not that you’re doing it really really well, that’s not the end of it. There’s always that next step. They’re very much into people skills.

Elaine: I remember when we used to be… when we were in A Levels, we’re meant to have a lot of free time. They forced us every week to do some form of community service. I did mine first Stroke Association, dealing with stroke patients and helping them recover every single week. We never actually got time off. My second year was actually going back to my own primary school and teaching kids. Things like this you take for granted and then you realise when you look back on it, actually it’s fantastic.

Payman: Pick up the school. Yeah. What was the name of the school?

Elaine: I went to Merchant Taylors. It was a private school in Liverpool. They have a branch in London as well. Very good school. And you know what? I think that is the difference in schooling. Is actually, it’s not the education side of it.

Payman: All the things around.

Elaine: It’s actually everything around and moulding you as a person. And the maturity that you get from it, is what pushes you further. I think everyone was in a similar… where parents were doing quite well in business and everyone was in a similar vibe. Growing up with the same kind of people around you–

Payman: So to Prav’s point, how come you not saying I want to open a chain of dental practises? By the way, you don’t always just because your parents are that way, a lot of people go the exact opposite of what their parents do. I do. I think you see the world through the lens of, if you can be an entrepreneur, why wouldn’t you?

Prav: Of course.

Payman: But lot’s of people don’t want–

Prav: Don’t want to do that, right? Yeah no I see that but I also see something in your personality and in you that makes you naturally gifted that way.

Elaine: For me I think in my mind, there’s is that leadership thing that I always want to pick up on. And I guess part of me is, I’m heavily involved at the moment with Dentinal Tubles as Payman knows. And since I’ve been involved with that, I think I’ve kind of taken over the Central London group. And that at the moment, gives me my fulfilment of the whole leadership and mentorship role.

Elaine: It’s nice because when I was in this rut of, “Where am I going to be working full time?” Getting out of NHS, I was around eight practises in one year. Every single time I joined, I was ready to hand in my notice because it was just nothing as promised. And it’s London. You pick up the first private role that’s going but then you realise it’s never probably as green as you thought it would be.

Elaine: I knew what I wanted to do and what type of dentistry I wanted to do and I wasn’t going to settle for anything less. So I kept on going and finding until I found jobs that I’m really really happy at. And they push me as well to do further. And that’s what I wanted. I think it’s about perseverance as well. It’s really easy just to give up.

Elaine: At this time I was lucky. I met some good mentors, some really good clinician around me. Took up every one of their knowledges and took my opportunities.

Payman: Who are you clinical mentors?

Elaine: So when I was… after VT I had quite a few mentors. I had Fazeela who’s helping me with implant surgery work. I had Richard Porter who helped me with restorative and endodontics. I met so many people, I really can’t–

Payman: Fazeela Osbourne

Elaine: Yeah I really can’t name everyone. And then I met Drew through Tubles and you know what? They gave that bit of confidence you just need when you just feel a bit deflated. And gave me that confidence back because I lost it in that one year as I said like, “What am I doing, I don’t know where I’m going now.” Like this is not what I expected.

Elaine: It’s lovely to be able to give it back because currently, I get messages from younger dentists and I don’t know why but I was quite happy approaching older dentist and people that I knew because I knew they wouldn’t judge me. But I think younger dentist really struggle with that right now.

Payman: Some do.

Elaine: They do struggle to speak to older dentists, they’re principals and everything and they would rather speak to someone younger. I do get the messages through from What’s Up, from random people. It’s really nice to be able to give back.

Payman: What are you, 28, 29 now?

Elaine: Just hit 30.

Prav: Little puppy.

Payman: It’s a funny age actually. I started in Enlighten at 28, I remember. It’s a funny age because your kind of not young anymore and you’re not old yet and it’s an interesting time to actually do something significant.

Payman: I’m finding myself kind of agreeing with you because what I knew about Elaine was… not that I sat there looking at your dentistry but she does know her stuff dentistry wise for someone her age definitely. That’s what I’ve gathered by looking at her in some of these courses. And now seeing the business side, he’s kind of right. You should start a little empire.

Elaine: I know, one day.

Elaine: Part of it has always been in the back of my mind but it’s kind of like thinking, “Oh when is the right time to do it.” At the moment–

Payman: That is the right time, isn’t it?

Elaine: No it’s never, I know.

Payman: It’s one of those things you got to do, make a mistake-

Elaine: I think I’ve made enough mistakes now.

Prav: It’s so easy to talk yourself out of it as well.

Elaine: It is.

Prav: You go through that whole situation of imposter syndrome, whats if this happens, what this, what that?

Payman: But wait a minute, there’s a new breed of super associates. We should talk about that a little bit. People who don’t want to be practitioners because they are so strong on social media, they have their own audience. They come with their own patients, negotiate super deals with the principals and never want to be a principal. I know a few people like that.

Elaine: I think sometimes if you’ve got the right associate job and you’ve got, everything’s green. It’s quite a relaxing place to go. You do your job and then go home.

Payman: I think with someone like you though, what you’ll find is you’re going to improve and improve and improve and you’ll get to point where you want to do something. I don’t know, clinically you want to do something because now you’ve improved the job hasn’t improved.

Elaine: In my head I still think, “You know what, I see a lot of these people on social media, a lot of them are my peers and a lot of them are all the same year as me. And for me it’s just like, “Oh my God, I feel like I’ve got so much more to give and so much more to improve on.” I haven’t reached my peak yet and I want to reach that peak before I’m–

Prav: The best is yet to come, right? And I can see that.

Elaine: I’m still hungry at this moment in time which is why I want to keep that momentum going and you know what? I’m just so happy that I’ve got very supportive practises that I’m at now who will give me a lot of freedom to do what I want and you know what? I’m getting referrals in and everything from dentists. A lot of other dentists, people that I studied with.

Payman: Really? For what?

Elaine: Treatment.

Payman: In what? What kind of treatment?

Elaine: Invisalign, and general exams because if they’re too far, they’re family members, whatever and you know what? I get people travelling from northwest to south London. I’ve got four at the moment from referrals from dentists from the past like six months. It’s really nice because I don’t feel like I have to push myself on social media like some of the others do because I feel like I could use that time doing so much more.

Prav: Old school networking right? You’re an old school people person.

Elaine: Yeah I know. You know what? Social media is fantastic but for me it’s not the same as sitting down, seeing someone and actually speaking to them.

Prav: No substitute.

Elaine: It’s not the same. Typing a few letters is not the same and that’s why I enjoy courses and getting out there. That’s why I enjoy Tubles, I’m meeting people face to face. It’s something that social media can not give you.

Payman: You’re not weak on social media though. You know what I mean?

Elaine: I still keep active every now and again

Payman: You’re not weak on it. I didn’t know you before I knew your persona on social media.

Elaine: But a lot of the social media that I do is not based–

Payman: It’s the food thing.

Elaine: Yeah there’s that as well.

Payman: That’s why I noticed you, the food thing.

Elaine: The thing is, a lot of these social media relationships that I have with colleagues and everything, it’s not just social media it stemmed from the fact that I actually met them in person. There are not many on my list that I haven’t actually met or spoken to before in person or the phone.

Prav: Real friends.

Elaine: So called. Or like on the phone. There’s either in person or on the phone and actually that’s what the difference is because if you have social media with lots of friends who you haven’t really met or know, there’s not that same relationship.

Payman: So we’ve got one other things we’re trying out. Is this notion of… tell me if you understand what I’m saying here, you can go to a course, right? And you can learn from a great teacher and why is it that that guy’s a great teacher because he’s got I don’t know, she’s got fifty amazing things, hacks, that they know, that they’re trying to teach. I see this all the time with teachers. I’ve got this other idea. Similar to the black box thing, is that every dentist has one or two personal hacks that is personal to them, that they discovered through dentistry, just doing the work. I think you’ve been qualified what six years you said?

Elaine: 2012. I left my VT 2012, 13.

Payman: Yeah so someone like you is so interesting, I’m sure… Can you think of something clinically, I’m talking about a clinical hack that Elaine herself has developed?

Elaine: God, you’re putting me on the spot now.

Payman: So for me, let me tell you–

Elaine: The thing is for me… it’s weird because for me these hacks, it’s not really a hack anymore. It just comes second nature so I don’t even know what is a hack or not anymore.

Payman: How interesting.

Elaine: For me, although I can get my clinical at work up, I like my focus to be on actually the patient and the actual care-

Payman: So the communication hack is really benefitting you, yeah?

Elaine: I think that that is more important than anything because I think the problem that we get now is there are so many clinical courses out there which people just dive on but how popular are these, you know communication and personal development courses. You don’t see people jumping on to them, like they do a little composite course.

Elaine: But the thing is, that’s where I think we need to change the mentality because at the end of the day if you screw up, that’s going to save you. If you can’t find patients, that’s what’s going to get people in your chair and everything stems from that.

Prav: I don’t think we’ve had much of a chance to find out who the real Elaine Mo is outside of dentistry so could–

Elaine: There’s not that much time left.

Payman: She’s all about the teeth.

Prav: You’re all about the teeth.

Payman: No because the Tubles takes time too.

Elaine: It does, it takes time but I put time aside because I work around… it works out to be four days a week so I still have a day for that.

Prav: What do you do for fun? Outside of work, dentistry, all the rest of it.

Elaine: I’m a big football fan. I think a lot of people know. I’m a massive Liverpool fan.

Prav: Right okay. So you go to the games and stuff?

Elaine: I do. It’s awesome. It’s from my dad. I think I’ve mentioned it earlier, I grew up in a town where all the footballs were around me and a lot of the older ones were family friends so I went to school with some of their kids and my parents were friends with them so I had no choice but to be a Red. But yeah, they take up half my time and winter. I love my football. I have a niece now, who keeps me busy as well so I spend a lot of weekends over there, babysitting. And I always try and find times for family, friends and going visiting, going you know, my own social life as well. Seeing these guys are parties, seeing them at the bar. I mean half the people I meet in dentistry are at the bar anyway.

Payman: We were worried about football because Anoop’s coming in later on.

Prav: We know nothing about football

Payman: We’re the opposite of the two heads are better than one podcast. Don’t know anything about football at all.

Prav: Seriously.

Elaine: So basically just tell him Liverpool are the best.

Prav: Literally, I jump in an Uber on my way from Euston Station to here. “Where you from mate?”

Prav: “Manchester.”

Prav: “Oh right, you a Red or a Blue?”

Prav: “Last time I looked in the mirror I was brown.”

Prav: I honestly know nothing about football.

Payman: It’s a bigger disgrace for you, coming from Manchester.

Prav: Even bigger disgrace.

Elaine: I know. From the north it’s a big thing.

Prav: Yeah. Huge.

Payman: In Liverpool I’ve have people ask me “Who do you support?” And I said,” Don’t like football.”

Elaine: And they’re like, “Do you live?”

Payman: Yeah I remember the guy looking at me in a way. He was thinking to himself, “Why’s this guys lying?” He couldn’t believe I wasn’t into football.

Elaine: Up north, especially Liverpool, Manchester it’s a big big thing.

Prav: Yeah I know.

Elaine: I don’t know what’s going on Prav.

Prav: I’m not considered a man if I’m not football smart.

Prav: Usually toward the end of these interviews we ask people a question about what legacy they’d like to leave but I think you’re a little bit too young for that.

Payman: Why? No.

Elaine: I like to think I’m a bit too young for that.

Prav: Yeah I was thinking more along the lines of… I know a few dentists who just recently are qualified and they’d love to be where you are at that stage in their career and if you could give them you’re top three tips to your younger you. What advice would you give them?

Elaine: Take very opportunity and meet as many people as you can. Although some people you might feel, “Oh no, they’re young or whatever.” No matter who you meet, you’ll learn something from them. And you’ll pick up something whether it’s clinical or from life, you’ll know something about them. Don’t give up. I know that there’s a lot of negativity and job issues and things that people have nowadays which we see but you know what? If it’s not right for you, leave. There’s always somewhere better. There’s plenty of places out there and perseverance is key. Three is believe in yourself and for me, personal development and developing yourself as a person is what will change everything.

Prav: I love that. Personal development is so huge to me that the last two years I’ve invested so much time and money into it. And I so believe in that.

Elaine: It’s so interesting because I don’t think people realise the importance of it and once you’ve got the knack of it, you realise actually it changes the clinical side. Even though you haven’t change anything clinically, it changes everything that you do and it will bring you so much more content and confidence in your life.

Payman: What’s your top tip in personal development, read books or booking a course?

Elaine: I’ve done books, courses, everything. And you know what? One you realise where you can improve on and once you realise… because everyone says dentistry is so isolating, it’s so negative and yeah it is but at the end of the day, you got to realise that dentistry is a great profession out there. There are a lot of people who are graduates now who can’t find a job. Where at least we’re petty much guaranteed a job no matter what. There are people struggling out there and dentistry is a fantastic place to be if you’re doing something that you’re actually enjoying. There’s no point doing dentistry if you’re not enjoying it and so what’s the point of carrying on. There’s got to be something that changes. If you don’t change it, you’re just going to burn out. You have to find out what you need to do, why you’re doing it in the first place, and then figure out from there.

Elaine: Personal development, I think, helps you to realise as a person where you can up your strength. What your strengths are, where your weaknesses are, and actually build on that because as a person, it increases your confidence and it makes you happier. Then you have an idea of what you want to do and more of an aim because some people, yeah working three days is the perfect limit for them because they’ve got other things. But if that’s what makes them happy then fine. And you can live of three days if you’re doing good dentistry.

Prav: Of course you can.

Payman: Have you ever worked in the UDA system as well?

Elaine: Yeah I did for a bit.

Payman: Was it soul destroying for someone like you?

Elaine: To be honest with you, I wasn’t in bad mixed practises but it was from really early on I knew it was something I wasn’t going to be happy with. I knew that it was never going to be something that I wanted to do which is why I invested in courses to get myself out of that and the earlier you can do that, the better. The earlier you upscale, the more time you have to build up on that and build up your strengths from the basics.

Payman: And so the first time you were in NHS situation and you went for a private job.

Elaine: Yeah. I didn’t stay in the NHS long to be fair with you. After VT I was only in for about a year and then I did a part time private. And I remember it was so difficult getting on because who’s going to hire someone straight out of VT?

Payman: Yeah how did you convince the guy?

Elaine: I commute to Peterborough part time. I did the commute two days a week. And I sacrificed. And it took a big pay cut because I was only seeing so many patients a day but it opened a new door to say I had the experience.

Prav: How long was the commute?

Payman: A hour and a bit isn’t it?

Elaine: Yeah. About an hour and a half at least because by the time you get on the train and everything.

Prav: And you commuted each day or stayed over?

Elaine: No each day.

Prav: Wow.

Elaine: I remember it was quite hefty train journey fee as well. But you know what? Although it was never the practise for me to stay at, I can’t really fault it because it gave me an opening.

Payman: Yeah I remember speaking to Mike Apa, he got into Larry Rosenthal’s practise by saying he’ll work for free for him. And now look at him.

Elaine: But you know what? There are a lot of different negative things that people say about practises but for me, although the negative practises I’ve been at, they’ve never lasted but I’ve always taken something away from it and at the end of the day, if you can spin anything into a positive, why not do that because you’re just going to make yourself happier. For me, my motto to my nurses as well is when patients get angry or kick off at you, just smile. No one can shout at a smiling face. That’s it. You can’t. Even if their having a go at you, just smile and no one can say anything. No one can be mean to a smiling face.

Prav: Yeah.

Payman: All right well, it’s been really really lovely conversation. Thanks so much for coming.

Elaine: Thank you. Absolute pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.

Prav: Thank you. There’s so much we haven’t covered so we’re definitely inviting you back. There’s going to be a part two for sure.

Payman: Maybe next time we invite her they’ll be a chain of dental practises.

Prav: Just one or two.

Elaine: Wouldn’t go that far.

Payman: Venture capital and all that…all right lovely. Thanks a lot for coming in.

Prav: Thank you.

Elaine: Thank you for having me.

Speaker 4: This is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Transcript

Zainab: Some professions don’t allow that, and then women are torn. They want to be at work but they want to be at home, and they have to then just choose. Not everyone can get the best of both worlds, but I think we’re lucky, we can. It’s not been easy. It’s definitely a struggle. The juggle is real.

Intro Voice: This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one-on-one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Hey guys. Today we’ve got the pleasure of having Doctor Zainab with us today. You’ve probably come across her on Instagram by witnessing her amazing composite work. Today we’re just going to go a little bit deeper and understand who the real person is behind her Instagram profile. Zainab, I wonder if I can just ask a few questions about where it all started, where were you born, where did you grow up. What was it like growing up with, is it three, younger sisters?

Zainab: Three younger sisters. Yeah. I was born in Glasgow in Scotland to a mum and dad who were both actually in health care. A year after that my sister was born. We lived in Scotland for about seven years in a town called Paisley not far from Glasgow and then moved to London for a few years. Then when I was about 11 my mum who’s a dentist was offered a job in the Middle East in Oman to run a dental department in a new private hospital.

Zainab: She was really, really up for the venture, and, for her, her dream had always been to live in front of the sea, work in front of the sea, kind of that environment. She’d known the lifestyle there to be quite chilled out. We went.

Prav Solanki: How old were you then?

Zainab: 11.

Prav Solanki: 11. Okay.

Zainab: The plan was that my father would come too, but he was in a consultant post here as a surgeon. Really stable, really quite happy in his job, and the job offers he was getting in Oman were a bit too far from home that would match the level he was at here. If he were to move with us, he would have had to not live at home anyway which defied the point.

Zainab: Three years in we decided to come back. We came back. It was also the time, it was time for GCSEs and it made sense that we just started that serious level of education here.

Prav Solanki: If I understand rightly, you moved away for three years.

Zainab: We moved away.

Prav Solanki: Without dad.

Zainab: Without dad. He came and went a lot, and we came and went a lot. It was really fun three years actually, the best three years of my life. Just living in the Middle East was amazing. The lifestyle is so relaxed. We start school at 7:30. We finish at 2:30, 3:00 max. Go to the beach. Everything’s just so relaxed. Mum’s literally where she wants to be in front of the sea and we just had such a good time. People are lovely. The lifestyle, everything’s open till late. You just feel like you’re on holiday but living there all the …

Zainab: Level of study, the level of education or the quality of education was really, really high. Actually, quite intense. If you failed your final year exams you’d have to retake the year. There was that pressure there. We went to an international school. Things were at a high level. We felt that pressure and from that sense, but it was compensated by the nice lifestyle.

Zainab: Then we came back. We came back after three years and just settled back. Then I did my GCSEs here in London, A levels and went to university, and have been here since. I was 14 when I came back.

Prav Solanki: What was that transition like when you came back in terms of the cultural environment being back with dad, I assume, and the education, the difference in education as well? If you can just summarise that.

Zainab: Coming back and being dad again was really nice. For him, especially, I think he really just wanted us back to just everyone settle back to the lifestyle that we had, the life we had here all together. Having said that, being a consultant surgeon he did locum a lot, and he had nights. For us, we were always used to him being back and forth and the nature of his work as a doctor was like that. Still, all being in the same home is always wonderful, isn’t it?

Zainab: Then in terms of settling back, to be very honest with you it was a bit gloomy. Because coming from that environment where everything’s just sunny and nice and relaxed, and here life is a bit more of a rat race. It took some time to adapt. I think we were all a bit upset about that aspect and missed it. At that age you kind of just adapt and get on with it. We were back at school and getting serious now about wanting to plan our futures and education and all of that.

Zainab: The education itself coming back actually it was quite … I came back when I was joining year 10. A lot of the subjects were kind of, I’d already studied them in Oman. I felt a bit like one step ahead. Then comes in all the examining boards and the nature of trying to revise for exams, and then the pressure was just on. It’s all about getting the grades and planning what I wanted to do. I was very clear I wanted to do dentistry.

Payman L: When did you decide that?

Zainab: I literally grew up with my mum being a dentist. It was sometimes my afterschool club. We’d get dropped off there or she’d have to come back and see a patient. I spent a lot of time growing up in the dental practise. Revising, studying for exams, things like that, in the dental practise. That was like second home. For me, seeing that, it was always very interesting and actually, funny enough, my mum is really good at composite bonding. I vividly remember her building up fractured teeth and just thinking, “Wow.”

Zainab: She would do it really probably in different techniques to now, but really, really effectively, quickly, and it just looked like magic. I was like, “Wow. I want to be able to do that.” Then what was really nice and what really inspired me, she was a big inspiration, was that she just was always so calm about everything. She made it look like it wasn’t particularly stressful. She was enjoying it and she was passionate about it and that always came across. That definitely, I feel, was an influence. I’d say really young. I can’t put my finger on it but well before GCSEs.

Prav Solanki: Exam time, school time, were you a swotty kid? Were you a grafter or were you just naturally gifted and smart and clever?

Zainab: I’m not sure. I definitely did work hard. My study style is to concentrate really, really heavily on something, rather than scan everything and try and absorb a lot of things at the same time. I dive into something. When I’m studying I take long, I take hours and hours to cover a subject, because I won’t go onto the next page till I’ve mastered that page. That was my study style. I’d say I’m a concentrator.

Prav Solanki: From my own cultural background, it was always destined that we would go into health care because it’s what our father wanted for us and wanted more from us than he got out of life, which was shopkeeper and taxi driver, and he worked so hard to put us through school. Was there ever any of that pressure on you to go into health care or at least to follow a certain stereotypical career path?

Zainab: I don’t remember it being verbalised. I think it came from me. I think maybe my mum was secretly relieved because she was so into it. I don’t remember it ever being something that was talked about as something that we should pursue. I do remember when I had decided on dentistry, my dad was a bit like, “But why not medicine?” There was this competition between the two.

Payman L: What did the other three end up doing?

Zainab: The one sister who’s directly younger than me, Ustra, did do dentistry as well. The third one did business and politics, and then the fourth one did dentistry and she recently qualified. Three of us are dentists. It wasn’t something that they pushed on us at all. No.

Prav Solanki: Moving on from obviously wanting to be a dentist and now being where you are today, was it always cosmetics that you were interested in? You mentioned that you saw, you all witnessed your mother doing amazing composites. Is that what initially got you started in cosmetics?

Zainab: That drew me towards it. It drew me towards the idea that this is a creative thing, and then what also drew me towards it was seeing my mum talk to patients a lot and build relationships. She really enjoyed those relationships. I’d see her chatting with them. That was a nice aspect of the work that I saw. I was really interested in biology and oral surgery.

Zainab: My mum actually went into the oral surgery pathway. She did a master’s in implants and went in that direction. I saw a lot of that. For me, to be honest, all of that was appealing for me. It wasn’t just the art. I didn’t know that I was going to go down the cosmetic points at that stage. I just was interested in everything.

Zainab: Then when I started university, I just wanted to be good at all of the disciplines. I took an interest in everything. Really only until about two years after qualifying did it crystallise that the one thing that really is fulfilling for me is really sculpting teeth and getting creative. That laboratory side. Not dentures, but that laboratory side where they’re looking at shapes of teeth and smile design. I’d look at people and see things that I wanted to change in their smiles.

Zainab: If I had a fractured tooth in a small child, rather than just doing a usual quick, I don’t want to say quick NHS, but you know what I mean. Rather than just a quick build up, I would sit there and really try and perfect it. That’s how I started practising . Nurses would comment at university as well. My final year case was a tooth wear case that needed full mouth rehabilitation. That’s quite advanced for a student.

Payman L: Where did you study?

Zainab: Kings. That was quite advanced for a student. I was thrown in the deep end with making a denture for this patient, root canals, perio surgery on him, and composites, upper and lower. That’s a lot for a final year case. I remember chasing Professor Stephen Dunne, literally chasing him around just trying to understand everything behind how to get this right.

Zainab: And reading. There were different views on this specific case. I had to then just make sense of it all myself. Out of all those parts, all those disciplines that were involved in his case, the bit that I really delved into was sculpting those composites and calling him back in to repolish and change the shape a bit. Nurses would come in and say, “This is going to be your thing. This is what you’re going to do.” I was like, “Yeah. I really enjoy this.”

Zainab: Then when I was in practise doing NHS dentistry, if, like I said, I had a fractured tooth, I’d just spend ages on it. Then the mother would say, “Can we see it? Look, are you proud of your art? Look, that’s lovely. Dah-dah dah.” There was always this thing, reinforcement from people who would see what I was doing, and say, “You look really passionate about that. This is probably something you should do more of.”

Zainab: Then it just grew from there and just really enjoyed that. I knew that I wanted to expand on it, and then I did more cosmetic courses.

Payman L: Did you always work at your mum’s practise, or did you work at other people’s practise?

Zainab: My first practise was the VT Practise in High Wycombe. I then stayed on for another nine months as an associate. It was about two hours from home at the time. I was driving back and forth and it was becoming quite tedious after nine months, eight, nine months. I then just thought, “It’s time to settle closer to home.” Then it was my mum’s practise. She had an NHS practise before this Harrow on the Hill one. I joined her NHS practise.

Zainab: She then started getting quite comforted by the fact that her daughters were now qualified dentists, quite confident, know what they’re doing. She started taking a little step back, slowly, slowly. It was actually at that point that she started planning her retirement. You know we came back from Oman, so she’s now in Oman. She retired and gone back. That was her dream. She’s built a home there.

Zainab: During that time that she was building that home, she was more and more busy with that, less and less involved in the practise. I was becoming more and more responsible for things. I began, I’d say, running or holding the fort of an NHS practise first about probably two or three years after qualifying, on the surface. I’d hold the fort in the sense that I was looking after things on the ground. She was still running the business, so to speak. I pursued a yearlong cosmetic dentistry course and then knew that I wanted to now advance my skills.

Prav Solanki: Who was that with?

Zainab: It was Professor Paul Tipton in Manchester. I’d go in once a month, travel in, and it just gave me a broad overview of cosmetic dentistry, crystallised that that was a path I was feeling really, really passionate about and wanted to excel in. She didn’t plan this, because she was retiring, but she just had a light-bulb moment where she was actually sitting in Café Café just opposite this dental, well, it wasn’t a dental practise at the time. It was just a remote building in Harrow on the Hill.

Zainab: She was kind of just getting a bit tired of running this NHS practise. My mum is one to always have projects. She just went and asked an estate agent, and she inquired about this place. She had a look at it, et cetera. Bottom line is, cut a long story short, she bought the place and set it up from scratch. Then she didn’t let us work there for a good few years. It was probably about three, four years before we were allowed to see patients there, because she wanted it to be really topnotch private dentistry, and we had to prove ourselves to her. It was very slowly, slowly. Then in 2013 I started working there properly.

Zainab: Ever since I’d say two years post-grad it’s been in my mum’s practises. She’s now sold the NHS one to somebody else. I just couldn’t see myself there for the long-term. The Harrow one she’s now sold to me.

Prav Solanki: What’s it like? I think your entry into business is completely different to everyone that we’ve spoke to traditionally, who have gone in, been very naive about business, and then started setting up a practise and learning all about the business of dentistry. Whereas it almost feels like since you were a child you were absorbing business by osmosis by doing your homework in the dental practise. Do you think a lot of the business acumen and knowledge, do you think that’s come from an early age just by observing your mother?

Zainab: You know what, I still don’t know how much business acumen I really do have. I feel like that’s an area that I’ve just landed into. I don’t think I’m very business-minded. I think I’ve been really patient-focused, patient-centred treatment. That’s my thing. I think that indirectly is what’s grown my … After mum retired, over the last three years I started just working really hard, but not because I wanted to make lots of money. It was because I was really into it.

Zainab: The bystander effect was that the clientele just grew. It was actually when I saw that it was growing that I felt confident enough to say, “I can buy this practise and keep it running, because I think I’ve grown the clientele here enough to keep it running well.” It wasn’t something, I don’t think I have a huge interest in business per se, or have an entrepreneurial spirit or anything like that really. It’s mainly the dentistry, and I think the effect of that is just that it’s grown well.

Zainab: My husband takes care of more of the business side than I do. I’m a really details person and I’ll get involved in everything, but financially he will make a lot of wise decisions. Whereas I will look at how people will perceive things or what branding it should have, branding should look, and things like that. It’s different.

Payman L: Running a business, owning a business has a financial aspect to it, but I wouldn’t say that’s the key aspect. Sorry.

Zainab: No.

Zainab: Well, not the way I see it in any case.

Payman L: The branding is a big, huge part of it. The way you handle your customers, your patients, and then the way you handle your people.

Zainab: That’s the crux.

Payman L: Your customers and your people really is the crux.

Zainab: Is the crux. That’s where my mind is.

Payman L: I know why you’re saying that you don’t think of yourself as a business person because you think of yourself as a dentist. You can be both. You can be both. It’s funny, because when Prav says it, he says it with a glow. In your world, business is a glowing thing, whereas I feel like Zainab doesn’t want to be known as a business person. She wants to be known as a doctor.

Zainab: It’s just that I don’t think in numbers. It may change, and I think I’d take pride in it still if it changed. I don’t have any qualm with it. It’s just that I just don’t have that way of …

Prav Solanki: I think you’ve probably nailed most aspects about business that a lot of dentists have to train and learn that you take for granted. For example, speaking to people, communicating, sales without selling, marketing. How much does Instagram influence your business? Does it generate new patients for you?

Zainab: It does, for sure.

Prav Solanki: You’re a marketer.

Zainab: Yes.

Payman L: Definitely.

Zainab: It’s how it’s ended up being. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Marketing’s a huge aspect of running a business. I think a lot of this has probably come through osmosis and you are a successful businesswoman in your own right. I guess what you’re thinking about is patients come first and the detail in that.

Zainab: You’re right. Social media, it’s had a huge influence. I would say that it’s put the word out there. It has, and it’s essentially been a huge source of advertising. That’s it really. That’s been huge. People then know where you are, who you are, what you’re up to, the quality of your work, and it reaches far and wide. Definitely has been a big influence. I didn’t start it thinking it would be but it has.

Prav Solanki: When was the point, what was the turning point where you thought, “Crikey, this Instagram stuff is really working”? Was it after a month, a year, six months? What was the point where it was-

Zainab: No. It was about two years ago. I first started my Instagram about five years ago, four or five years ago or six maybe now. I’m losing track of time. I think two years ago is when I really noticed. I started posting more. When I first started out, I was just posting sporadically here and there, nothing really consistent. It was making a bit of a difference, but it was a small circle that it was exposed to.

Zainab: Then the following slowly, slowly grew. As it grew, the inquiries grew, and I got busier. I found it harder to post, but because I saw that it was helpful and because patients would come in and say, “I’ve seen this photo, can you tell me more about it? I’ve seen what you wrote in your caption. It was actually really informative. I hadn’t ever come across composite bonding.” I thought captions make a difference. Let’s explain this properly. I felt quite responsible about what I was sharing. I just started to think more about what to share and doing it whenever I could.

Zainab: I just gradually noticed that it was working. Patients would come and mention it. We have a feedback. In our registration forms in the practise, it says, “Where did you hear about the practise?” I’d see Instagram a lot, and I thought, “Wow. Actually this is really influential.” About two years ago.

Prav Solanki: Did that change your focus of how you was going to approach Instagram? Have you got a strategy, hashtags, pictures right-hand side, dentistry middle column, lifestyle, that sort of thing? Have you got a strategy or a-

Zainab: I do now.

Payman L: Yeah. I noticed that there’s noses and lips on the left-hand side.

Zainab: Yes. That’s it exactly.

Prav Solanki: Has that just come about by chance or have you learned the craft of Instagram and hacked the algorithm?

Zainab: I definitely haven’t hacked any algorithm. I’ve been hearing that there is an algorithm and I don’t quite know what it means. What happened is I was just posting without any themes. I had a lot to post, lots of content. I’d sit there and think, “I don’t know which one to post. Should I post this one or this one?” I’d look at my page. It just looked a bit messy. Being in aesthetic dentistry or aesthetic medicine you are all about being visual about things. I thought I really want to make this look neat.

Zainab: I’m doing lots of different things, and I don’t know how people will understand really how one minute I’m posting teeth and the next minute it’s a nose, and then the next minute it’s something else, and then randomly I’ll put something miscellaneous. I just thought, “Why don’t I just do a column, one of each?” It actually looked nicer and I just carried on doing it.

Prav Solanki: Wow. In terms of business now, where does the majority of your new patients come from? Is it still Instagram?

Zainab: Word of mouth, so families now. It’s the sisters and the mums. It just grows like that. Instagram has still been a big part of it because it’s reaching people further out who live far away, but I’m now seeing lots and lots of siblings and friends of friends and so on. As far as even, which is really nice, if a dental student comes and shadows, they’ll bring their mum next time. It’s really nice. It’s just growing in that way.

Prav Solanki: How much personal content do you put on there, like real life stuff? Do you put your personal life, what you’re up to, going here, or here on holiday, shopping there and that sort of stuff?

Zainab: I didn’t used to. I thought of it as this is just a professional page. I’ll just show my professional aspect and nothing really personal. Then friends of mine said, “Do you know, it would be nice if you just shared a bit about you.” Because I think people would like to see it. I’d ask patients, so they’d come in and I’d get to know them a bit, et cetera. They’d mention Instagram, and then they’d say, “I saw you were doing this or that.” I thought, “What do you think about it? Do you think I should share more personal stuff?” They’d say, “Yeah. Think it’s really nice for people to connect and see what you’re about.”

Zainab: I had that encouragement. I just thought, right, I’ll do little snippets. I’m still quite reserved, and it’s just still very much little snippets. I think slowly, slowly I’m willing to share a little bit more with time. It still is predominantly a professional page, and it will always, I think, just be snippets.

Payman L: We just had Linda Greenwall. She runs a group for women in dentistry. What’s your view on women in dentistry? Would you say it’s harder being a woman dentist than a man dentist?

Zainab: I haven’t experienced that yet. I was a little bit confused at first when I saw groups like that. I listened to what was being talked about and I understand that a lot of women have had difficult experiences. I can’t say that I have. I don’t know whether it’s just been lucky, or it could be that I’ve been oblivious to it at university and in my VT. When I see somebody being particularly difficult, I don’t necessarily assume it’s because I’m a woman.

Zainab: I just haven’t really felt like that, and I generally don’t have a victim mentality. I haven’t seen that. Maybe it’s a factor that I’ve been under my mother’s practise for a long time. I’ve still been exposed to five years at dental school and VT, two years, that’s a good seven years. I never experienced anything to be honest.

Payman L: Linda was saying that there aren’t enough women speakers. Have you noticed that? Have you thought about teaching, that sort of thing?

Zainab: I’ve been fortunate to have been asked to teach facial aesthetics. I’ve been doing that for the last five years. I would love to teach and speak more. I have noticed that there is a little imbalance, but only because it’s been highlighted. I wasn’t really focusing on it and noticing it much. It’s been highlighted more recently and I do agree that there is that. I think women should get out there more.

Zainab: I was talking to someone about this recently, and I can’t put my finger on the reason. I don’t want to necessarily think it’s because if women fall into this trap of feeling victimised, it’s not going to get much better. I think part of it is that women need to put themselves out there a bit more, so women need to put themselves forward and say, “I can do this. Would you like me to?”

Payman L: Women are less confident than men.

Zainab: I don’t know if it’s that. Because I think women have a lot of inner confidence. It’s a complex thing, and I think it comes from a combination of things. Partly women think I’m not sure I’ll be able to balance this with my life, if they’re particularly busy with home life and other things. I think although they think they can do it, they’re worried about rejection. I think that sometimes, and this is where now men’s mentality might come into things, is I think that there is this thing where women are thought to be nurturing, you know traditionally nurturing, home people, and although we’re successful dentists, et cetera, we’re quite happy not using our voice.

Zainab: There is this assumption that women don’t mind, but actually I think women have a lot to offer. I think that does need to change. There needs to be more of an emphasis on what women can deliver in our …

Prav Solanki: Do you think being a mother factors into that? Linda was talking earlier about being a mother, feeding the child, waking up early, waking up at night, running the practise. Eight days after giving birth she was in the practise, and just balancing all of that. Talk me through, you’re a mother. You’ve got one on the way in about 10 days time. Just talk us through how you balance all that and how that factors in your future success.

Zainab: It’s not easy. It’s really hard work. I work really, really, really, really hard, but I don’t know if I would have if I didn’t really enjoy the work. I think because I enjoy it and it gives me so much fulfilment, it’s become a part of my identity. For me to sit at home continuously for a whole year would be dampening down something that’s really there throughout, like really wanting to do something. I couldn’t do it.

Zainab: I tried to. I was at home for six months with my daughter, really enjoyed it. She’s my number one. It meant the world to me to have her. That constant feeding, that constant nappies, and so on, and just literally just being in that routine and not being able to talk to a child. At some point you just want to get out and do what you do.

Zainab: Seven months in I was really trying to get back to work and finding a support network to make it work. I just did it really, really gradually. It wasn’t easy. I nursed my baby for two years, but I still went to work. I just worked around everything. I think what’s beautiful about dentistry is that women have the option to work part-time, and then just build up and adapt according to your child’s needs. You can make it work. Some professions don’t allow that and then women are torn, and they want to be at work, but they want to be at home, and they have to then just choose.

Zainab: Not everyone can get the best of both worlds. I think we’re lucky, we can. It’s not been easy. It’s definitely a struggle. The juggle is real. It’s definitely tough.

Payman L: Zainab, I think it’s even happened to me. I’ve been a fat bald Iranian in Kent, in some little town in Kent I was the dentist. The guy would walk in expecting to see a dentist, what he thought was a dentist. I could see he was just sort of immediately thinking, “Oh, who’s this guy?” Have you had that happen, you have people come in and not expecting to see a woman in a headscarf as their dentist?

Zainab: I have had that. Yes.

Payman L: Go on. Tell us about that.

Zainab: I’ve had, and it’s not been verbalised, but you just get the vibe. I’ve had mainly men walk in, arms folded, and they just think, I don’t know what exactly they’re thinking. Either, “I don’t think she’s going to be able to help me.” Or maybe they don’t like the headscarf. I have no idea, but there’s something defensive there before we’ve even started talking.

Prav Solanki: You know exactly what it is.

Zainab: I’m not always sure. I’ve had vibes.

Payman L: I mean sometimes people are nervous when they come to, a lot of times.

Zainab: It could be that, so anxiety, for sure, is always one. Sometimes you just get the vibe. You can see the moment you have that eye contact there’s a thought …

Payman L: Visual cues.

Zainab: … in their mind. Once they’ve sat in the chair, and I’m really passionate about personal development. I’ve done lots of all of that stuff for the last, I’d say, about seven years. I am quite good at making a situation not about me and turning a situation around that can initially be awkward and proving that there’s a lot of value to come in this conversation or in this appointment.

Zainab: I can then within a few minutes see their hands relax and they start just listening to what I’m saying, and then the building of the trust. I’ve managed to overcome those moments. It’s never been something that’s limited me or actually put me off. I just get through it and manage to turn it around quite well. Actually they become quite loyal patients. I’ve never had an issue.

Payman L: It’s a good attitude to have on it though.

Zainab: Yeah. Because a lot of it is just perception, and it’s not what it is. You can turn it around just by showing who you are, rather than getting defensive and going in a bubble. There’s no point. Just you’re there to deliver something and let that shine.

Payman L: I think in the same way as when someone complains, you can turn them into your best patients by handling them correctly.

Zainab: Exactly.

Payman L: The same way, if they come in with a minus feeling you can equal and opposite that.

Zainab: Exactly.

Payman L: Tell me about your composite work, because I think in the end right now you’re here because of the fact that you’ve come up on our radar, on the Mini Smile Makeover with really beautiful composite work.

Zainab: Thank you.

Payman L: It really is. Do you feel like that can be taught? Do you feel like there’s a talent there?

Zainab: Yeah. I’m sure it can be taught.

Payman L: Because we grapple with this a lot. We teach 30 dentists a month on this subject.

Zainab: Really?

Payman L: Some people are always scared that, “I don’t have the talent.” We’re always saying that if you follow the simple steps you can get there. What was your journey from the composite perspective?

Zainab: I’ve always had a background where my mum draws paintings and she used to encourage us. Art was always something we just found really fascinating. We’d love drawing and we were quite particular about things.

Payman L: Actually, some of your first Instagram posts were drawings of-

Zainab: Yeah. Were actually drawings.

Payman L: I saw that.

Zainab: I’m quite particular about how things are done in my hands. They need to be a certain way. When it came to composites, I think that it was literally just practise, practise, practise. Then I’d look at pictures, look at what’s this beautiful smile, what’s desirable. I shadowed a dentist in Beverly Hills, Dorfman, Doctor Dorfman. He had wall pictures, like you’ve got smiles here. He had lots of these. I’d look and just really absorb what was a beautiful smile, and then just try and recreate it.

Zainab: I had a slightly, well, you could say OCD approach towards a composite. If I was doing a tooth, I wouldn’t let the patient leave until I was really happy with it. I’d seat them up, have a look, check with the lips, check with everything. “Sorry. Can I just sit you back down? Can I just polish that bit a bit?” That was how I was doing it. Then the rewarding feeling of their reaction, and it’s addictive when patients are that happy about something.

Zainab: Then I just wanted to build on it. It was taught, at the same time, of course, because I went on the Paul Tipton course. Doctor Monique ran some of his courses at the time. This was 2012.

Payman L: When he was teaching Tipton’s … Yeah.

Zainab: When he was teaching us, so quite a long time ago, about seven years ago. We did composites then. We also had a day where lab technicians came in and we did wax ups. On that day, we all did wax ups, so four front teeth. The lab technician took mine and said, “I like this one.” There’s always that positive encouragement. Then it was experimenting with different instruments, finding that warming composite really makes such a difference. It just built up, and then photography.

Zainab: I’d take photos and I’d go home and I’d look, and I just wouldn’t like something. Then I’d know what I want to change next time. It was just building on all of that. It’s definitely a process, and I still have lots to learn, I’m sure, constantly. And capturing the line angles, and, yeah, definitely lots more to learn.

Payman L: What are your plans going forward?

Zainab: I want to continue doing what I’m doing, but just continue taking it to the next level each time. I am, where I am, really happy doing what I’m doing now. I just want to do more of it. I’ve recently done a course by Doctor Sam Jethwa, Bespoke Smile. What that was all about, it was translating minimally invasive dentistry into porcelain veneers, mainly so that we can deliver porcelain veneers in an ethical way so that we have the longevity without the staining and so on.

Zainab: That’s the pitfall, I think, just of composite. Although what I love about composite, what really drew me is I could transform someone’s smile in a completely additive way without drilling their teeth. Always felt ethical. Could sleep at night. Happy. Everyone’s happy. The staining over time for some patients who aren’t good with their diets is a limitation. If I can translate that ethical way or that minimally invasive way into delivering porcelain veneers, that’s what I want to start doing more of where applicable.

Prav Solanki: What’s the replacement time for composite veneers? I’ve had numerous conversations with either people who teach composite veneers or other dentists who do them. They say a big worry is that after three years or however long it is that they’re probably going to need redoing. I just want to get an idea in terms of how easy is it to redo a composite veneer or is that the time where porcelain kicks in?

Zainab: I would then just have to put it to a patient. I tell patients that it will last somewhere between three to seven years, and that it’s very dependent on your diet, your maintenance, how often you come in, eating habits. Do you grind your teeth? All the colourful things in their diet, but also how hard the foods are that they’re eating. I have that discussion and I think what I’ve found is it’s really variable and really does depend on all those things. I can never really truly predict when a composite’s going to need replacement. I just tell them-

Payman L: You also haven’t been around long enough to see your composites seven years.

Zainab: Yeah. Exactly. I’ve seen that over the last five years my rate of chips, fractures is not high but the staining is something I see a lot.

Payman L: Staining’s definitely the primary concern.

Zainab: That’s the primary thing. Yeah.

Payman L: Then obviously polishing is a big factor. The composite you use is a big factor, by the way.

Zainab: Yeah. This is something I’m learning and want to go into a bit more actually. At that point when it fails, it’s having that conversation again. I always warm them. There’s always we’ve got a consent form. I’m always warning them this is something that requires maintenance. When it chips, you’ll need to have it either replaced or repaired or look at plan B. That’s instilled into all consultations.

Payman L: When you say you want to do more of what you’re doing now, I mean that could be you want to open six more practises, or it could mean you want to-

Zainab: It’s the nature of my work. No. Just the clinical.

Payman L: You want to only do minimally invasive cosmetic dentistry yourself and let other people do other. Is that what you mean?

Zainab: Yeah. I want to continue doing minimally invasive dentistry, but really, really get a bit more transformative in my smiles. Apply more disciplines to my smile makeovers and expand on my facial aesthetics. I now do mainly facial aesthetics injectables and skin care. I’d like to expand a bit more. There’s so much more out there, but it’s a real …

Payman L: What, the lasers and things?

Zainab: There’s loads. Yeah. There’s loads. I’m not one to just try and do everything. Like I said, I want to master one thing before I go onto the next, which means I take my time. I don’t jump into things too quickly. My vision is to just become more of an expert in what I’m doing clinically. In terms of business and buying more practises, I don’t visualise it. I don’t visualise me buying many. I want this one to be really, really, really successful, fruitful, have the reputation it deserves and represent us really well.

Payman L: How many years out of college are you?

Zainab: Nine years.

Payman L: You seem to have a real head on your shoulders. Self-awareness firstly. Which is rare at your age. Also, you seem to be relaxed with your progress. A lot of times with people at your level, at your stage, there’s an impatience. You don’t seem to have that. You seem to be very relaxed in your skin.

Zainab: The reason is-

Payman L: What do you attribute that? Have you always been that way?

Zainab: I’ve always been that way. I think it’s partly the parenting, I think, I’ve had, that’s just constantly instilling confidence. Parents are amazing. They’re role models. I’ve seen them always be quite grounded, level-headed, patient. They have goals but they always instilled this idea of contentment.

Payman L: You say that, but my brother and me are totally different. His brother and him are totally different. Same parents.

Zainab: It’s true. That’s absolutely true. My sister and I are completely different. Absolutely. It’s just the way that I perceive things. Contentment is something that they always talk about. Then personal development’s something I literally dived into when I was about 25. I’m now 34. When I was there, oh gosh, it was just literally-

Payman L: Have you done programmes?

Zainab: Yeah.

Payman L: What have you done?

Zainab: There’s one called The Landmark Forum.

Payman L: I’ve done that.

Zainab: Have you done it?

Payman L: Yeah. I’ve done that.

Zainab: What did you think?

Payman L: I didn’t like it.

Zainab: Really?

Payman L: Yeah.

Zainab: I loved it.

Payman L: I got it. I got it.

Zainab: You got it.

Payman L: I got it. I understood it, and I’m running rackets. Yeah. Definitely. For those of you who’ve …

Zainab: For whoever else knows.

Payman L: Did you go master’s level …

Zainab: If you know, you know.

Payman L: … and all of the … Did you just keep on going?

Zainab: I did the advanced course.

Payman L: I found it a bit cultish.

Zainab: I get that. What I did is I chose what to take from it, and then what I felt wasn’t of value.

Payman L: What else?

Zainab: Essentially I found it really useful. I drew loads from it.

Payman L: It’s a nice way to delete your past and just go forward. I like the idea a lot. What else did you do?

Zainab: Other than Landmark Forum.

Payman L: Yeah.

Zainab: Well, Landmark Forum really was a big part of it. With the Landmark Forum it was a three day, as you know, three days. Then there’s 10 seminars that you do. For about three months every single week I’d go in, and then the advanced course. Then I just thought, “Right, now I’ve got these tools, I need to go out there and live it.” They wanted me to do the next step, and I just thought, “I’m at a stage where I now need to just go out there and use all this, this toolkit and see if it’s working.”

Zainab: It was. I was really quite happy with it. To be honest, it’s quite intense. I was quite drained from all those evenings there, days and evenings. It’s really intense, but the value I got from it was something that you do not forget. It’s like riding a bike. You don’t go back. They’re tools forever. Essentially, it was about trying to not delete. I get what you mean by delete the past.

Payman L: I wasn’t saying in a bad way.

Zainab: No. No. In a way that can be good, but it’s about choosing what you want to keep about your interpretations of yourself and getting rid of your limiting factors, your limiting thoughts, and then having a blank canvas, and then creating. How that manifested is you know how I gave the example it’s not about me in an interaction? If I choose it not to be.

Payman L: Mm-hmm.

Zainab: That’s the power I got, that actually someone there has got a story and how they’re perceiving me is that is the story. It’s not real. That allows me to filter out its significance completely. It’s mindfulness. Ultimately it all came back to mindfulness. Then I did lots of other little things, meditation, mindfulness, et cetera. To be honest, the value I’ve got most was actually the Landmark Forum.

Payman L: Have you done it?

Zainab: Then some reading, but the Landmark Forum-

Prav Solanki: Do you meditate now, or is that part of daily practise?

Zainab: I would like it to be but it’s not now. It was up until I had my three year old, and then she is my every spare minute.

Prav Solanki: Got you.

Zainab: It’s something that I should aspire to go back to, because it really does help to just take a few moments a day. Definitely.

Prav Solanki: What’s your routine like as a mother, wife, and practise owner and practitioner?

Payman L: How many days a week do you drill?

Zainab: I work four days a week. They’re pretty long days. Sometimes 10, 11 hour days.

Prav Solanki: You start at?

Zainab: Start at about 10:00. I got into this routine where at least I’d give her breakfast and do the morning thing with her, and then go to work. Because I start at 10:00, I could work a bit later. In 2018 I got into the habit of working routinely till about 8:00, 9:00 PM, and, to be honest, losing track of time, and just being really, really into it. Then I made a New Year’s resolution this year that I had to get more work-life balance. Now I aim to not see any patients past 6:00, sometimes it drags to 6:30, but then there’s recordkeeping, et cetera. Now I get home at a reasonable time. Which …

Prav Solanki: Which is?

Zainab: … for some is not reasonable. Compared to last year it is. It’s about 7:30.

Payman L: Your husband, Ahmad, what does he do? Same thing.

Zainab: Yeah. Ahmad’s different. He’s more of an early bird, so he starts at 8:00 and traditionally used to finish about 5:30, 6:30. Now that he’s joined Harrow, he’s still starting at 8:00 but finishing later. He’s working really hard. We’ve talked about trying to achieve more work-life balance now. Now that we have a second baby on the way, and we both need to cap it really. Normal, sociable hours, 5:30, 6:00-ish. That’s our goal. Then if it happens on the off day or we will allocate an evening per week, that’s fine, but it shouldn’t be every day.

Prav Solanki: What happens with the little one when you guys are at work? You see her in the morning, do the breakfast thing, and then, what is it, nursery support?

Zainab: This is in those four days, so what I did is Layla, I didn’t take her to nursery for three years. I was nagged to and advised to by in-laws and others. My feeling towards nursery was that she was too young to be in an environment where she was going to be floating around many others. I’d looked at the Department of Health psychologists and what they’ve said, and three is the optimum age, so I stuck to that. Up until three I wanted her to have that one-to-one, either me on my three days off or somebody really, really trusted and who’s bonded to her.

Zainab: That person was the nanny that we have. She has been like the Mrs Doubtfire of our house. A real support. Without her I don’t know whether I’d be doing what I’m doing. She started coming just one day a week when Layla was seven months old and bonded loads with her. Then slowly I built it into two days. I didn’t start doing four days until about 12 months ago. It was about three days for a while.

Zainab: They just really had a lovely bond. I could see that Layla was happy, and that gave me the comfort to carry on doing what I’m doing. The routine, where my husband came into this is in 2018 where I worked intensely he would come home before me, and he would take over. Sometimes he’d get her to bed. Sometimes he wouldn’t. Sometimes I’d arrive late and she’s still awake and I’ll just take over. It was just teamwork. You know what, there’s no recipe where it’s all perfect.

Zainab: I was saying this to someone the other day who was like, “I’m worried about how I’ll juggle and should I have children?” I said, “Of course just do it and then survive it.” Because you just make it work. We step in. Whoever is there will step in.

Prav Solanki: As a team.

Zainab: Yeah. As a team. Now that we both work the practise in the last seven months, I’m getting home before him, and now he’s taken the later evenings and doing things, so we’re just teamwork.

Payman L: What’s your top tip to someone considering buying a practise now? I know it’s a bit different because you bought your mum’s, but what’s your top tip about running a business as opposed to just working in one?

Zainab: I think choosing the right practise is a big thing. I had the choice to have bought my mum’s NHS practise. I wouldn’t have minded buying an NHS practise but I didn’t like the area. I didn’t think the clientele were the type of clientele that I could do the type of work I wanted to do on for many years.

Zainab: I think deciding what you want to do with the rest of your dental career, getting clear on what kind of treatments you want to offer is important. Because then you’ll choose the right area and I think the area really matters, and the type of clientele that will come in through the door. If you are quite entrepreneurial, don’t mind taking a step back and just having a business running, then you could worry less about that. If you want to be actively involved, you have to think about who you’re going to be seeing every day and whether you want to do those kind of treatments.

Zainab: I think that’s probably, for me, one of the main things I’m thinking of when you asked me that. Other than that, all the business, all the financial side, to be honest, quite alien to me. I would say get a really good accountant who advises you really well. Always, always think about your why. You mentioned a few things, and just going back to personal development, one of the things I got was any decision going forward I really have to think about my why.

Zainab: Even on social media, we touched on the value of social media. When it gets too much I’m always thinking, “Why? What is my social media about?” Because it can get really, really too much, as so many people are talking about this now. Any decision I always go back to my why. I would really advise people get to grips with understanding why they’re doing something, what’s the driving force, and that will crystallise a lot.

Prav Solanki: Do you ever get social media overload? You know you kind of feel like, “Someone’s left a comment. I’ve got to respond to this.” And all of a sudden before you know it you’ve got this overload and then you have that moment of clarity and think, “I better start living my real life now.” Do you ever experience that?

Zainab: Yeah. I think there was a phase where I was really active. The more active you get the more engagement you’re going to get, …

Prav Solanki: And the more business.

Zainab: … the inquiries, the more questions. Then you feel that you have a duty to answer those questions, and then it becomes too time consuming. Then you just think other things that are important need to come first. Then people get a bit annoyed that you haven’t replied yet. Then you just go back to your why. Why do I need to be that active? Is this giving me value or is this taking me away from what’s important? That comes and goes quite a lot actually, that conversation in my mind.

Prav Solanki: Is that like a conflicting battle? How do you switch off?

Zainab: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Because I have that sometimes that I’ll be at home. The one defining factor for me is I was on Facebook and my three year old came up to me and said, “Put your phone away daddy.” That was a real defining moment.

Zainab: Moment.

Prav Solanki: I thought to myself, “Well, I can just check my comments because she’s at the other side of the room,” but I wasn’t in the room with her if that makes sense. That was my why.

Payman L: I’m accused of that quite a lot as well.

Zainab: I was as well at one stage, and then I just realised she’s growing really, really quickly, and these moments, especially from working that much, these moments are precious. When I’m with her I just put my phone where I cannot see it. If she’s asleep I feel more at liberty. If she’s awake, then I just feel there’s loads of mum guilt, and then it just needs to be away. Actually, off the table even, just out of sight so that I’m not even tempted to check it. It’s not worth it.

Zainab: If you’ve got kids and they need you and your time with them is limited, then it’s not. It has its place and it’s good and it carries lots of value. Dentistry’s, I think, really changed because of social media. It’s changing a lot because of social media, and that’s just dentistry. The world-

Payman L: Good and bad.

Zainab: Good and bad. The whole world is changing because of it. It carries loads of value. It’s a place of influence. It’s a great platform, and we can use it really, really well, but not when it consumes us.

Payman L: Zainab have you read a book called Black Box Thinking?

Zainab: No. I haven’t.

Payman L: It’s about when a plane crashes they don’t assign blame. They want to just say what can we learn from the plane crash, and it actually relates it to medical. When there’s a mistake medically everyone tries to cover it up because that’s not the way we think about mistakes in medicine, and so we never learn from those mistakes. We’ve been asking people, if they want to share with us, what’s the biggest clinical mistake you’ve ever made?

Zainab: Thankfully nothing sinister. I have given anaesthetic on the wrong side of the mouth.

Payman L: Did you just explain it to the patient?

Zainab: I just explained it to the patient, and just said, “I’m so sorry. I’ve just numbed the wrong side.”

Payman L: It’s not bad in nine years.

Zainab: Thank God. Thank God. Touch wood. Again, even if it was a bigger mistake I think owning it. You just have to own it. We are human and just be really honest about it and apologise. Then reassure and say it doesn’t mean that we’ve caused any problems. It’s just I’m really sorry that you’re numb on the wrong side. I’m going to have to numb the other side now. That’s the only thing I can remember thus far.

Prav Solanki: Just one thing that we didn’t quite touch upon, you mentioned that you’re teaching facial aesthetics now. Who’s that for? What does that involve? Does it take up much time of yours?

Zainab: I teach for a company called Oris Medical who initially trained me six years ago. When they trained, actually I started facial aesthetics, didn’t think I was going to go that much into it. On the training course I was really intrigued and really loved it. Then just started treating my own patients, and it sort of just kicked off and the interest grew. Then about a year later they were recruiting, and they sent an email out to some of the delegates. I think they’d seen some of the work we were up to. That’s where I think I did begin sharing some of the work I was doing on social media.

Zainab: They asked if I’d had any teaching experience or what skills I could offer, or why I would be a good teacher, et cetera. I replied, and then they invited me for an interview and I came in. We had a chat and then they said, “Could you pretend you’re teaching someone now in front of us?” I did that. Then they said, “You’ve got the job.” I said, “Okay.” They said, “First come in on a day where you’re just watching how we teach and how we run the course.”

Zainab: I came in and actually it was really, really fun. I felt straight away part of the team. I began doing that. How it all started was once a month roughly, and then they wanted me to do more. They then expanded to run courses up in Leeds and they needed somebody to take all the products and lead the training. My sister had also, I got her on board and she started training as well. She was really interested. She was also practising and she loves teaching. She’s a great teacher too. She joined the team.

Zainab: There was a team of about five of us, and so Ustra and I, sisters, went up north and ran those Leeds courses for about a year. It was really good fun. We really enjoyed it. It was a big position of responsibility. Then they came back to the conclusion that they had more demand in London. We just continued running the London ones. Slowly, slowly some of the trainers either were having kids, well, I was one of them, had a kid. Took some time out, came back, and then Ustra had two children in this time, came back, et cetera.

Zainab: We were a really great team. Some of them lived really far away. Ustra moved up north. It ended up being that I’ve been one of their main lead trainers, the only London-based one for a while. Now I’m taking another little break, but hopefully be back.

Prav Solanki: Do you see teaching featuring heavily in your future?

Zainab: I really like teaching.

Prav Solanki: You enjoy it.

Zainab: I find it really rewarding. It’s really nice to see how people shift from that beginning stage of feeling vulnerable and clueless to suddenly this new skillset in quite a short time. That’s really rewarding. What’s nice and what I’ve learned from Oris Medical is the ethos there was really lovely, in that the support is ongoing. I still have delegates from the last five years still in touch with me, still ask me things, and we’re now colleagues. It’s really, really lovely. I do like it. I definitely see it as part of my future.

Prav Solanki: If you could do it all again, go back to school and fast forward till today, what would you change? What would be different along that path and what would have you done differently?

Zainab: I think the career pathway that I chose I still would have chosen, for sure. I think the timing I chose it would have been the same. If I was to tell my younger self something it would be probably stress less. Don’t get stressed. This is before I did all that personal development stuff, when I was an undergrad. I used to feel the heat, really feel the stress of dental school and all the pressures. I would have loved to have done personal development earlier. I think that’s something that I think is really invaluable.

Zainab: As professionals who deal with people and such intricate jobs that can be stressful, I think we need that toolkit. I would say that’s something I really, really am glad I did. My only regret is not doing it earlier, and I would recommend it to others.

Prav Solanki: It’s been a pleasure having you on our podcast today.

Zainab: Thank you.

Prav Solanki: Thank you so much for sharing your journey.

Payman L: Thank you so much.

Zainab: Thanks so much for having me.

Prav Solanki: Thank you.

Payman L: It’s been brilliant.

Zainab: Really enjoyed it. Thanks.

Payman L: Thanks.

Outro Voice: This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one-on-one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in for future episodes. Hit subscribe in iTunes or Google Play or whatever platform it is. We really, really appreciate it if you would …

Payman L: Give us a six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman L: Thanks a lot guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.

Transcript

Prav Solanki: Hey guys and welcome to the Dental Leader’s podcast. Thanks for tuning in and today’s interview was with Dr. Benji Dhillon, a cosmetic doctor, plastic surgeon who used to be the clinical director of Allergan. He’s an opinion leader across a range of different cosmetic treatments, not just injectables. And what a super nice guy, family guy, young man, very enthusiastic. But the big thing is that he’s teamed up with Mark Hughes a Harley Street dentist and him being a ex- Hall Street cosmetic practitioner to bring a new concept into Beaconsfield. But what did you take away from that Pay?

Payman: Well you know it’s called Dental Leaders but not every single person on the show’s going to be a dentist. I was super interested in his approach and the idea of combining, having one roof where you’re going to take care of dentistry and facial aesthetics from a very high level.

Prav Solanki: Super high level.

Payman: I’m very interested to go and see the place because I’ve seen some pictures of it now on social media. But both those guys I’m sure are going to do super well.

Prav Solanki: They’ll do really well. I mean I’ve been working quite closely with Benji and he’s taught me so much about the facial industry and the aesthetics industry that it’s opened up a whole new world, in my mind, both about marketing but also about that business and how well it combines with dentistry.

Payman: Yeah combine that with four kids too.

Prav Solanki: Yeah he’s just had a little one.

Payman: Yeah enjoy it guys.

Prav Solanki: Enjoy.

Payman: What are the public into right now?

Benji Dhillon: The public are really into body sculpting.

Payman: Really?

Benji Dhillon: Yeah.

Payman: Does it work?

Benji Dhillon: It does work yeah. I mean you’ve got to look at the-

Payman: Talk us through what happens.

Payman: Six pack?

Benji Dhillon: Close to. Prav you don’t need it anyway. I know you’re ripped under that shirt..

Speaker 4: This is Dental Leader’s. The podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Morning guys today we have Dr. Benji Dylan with us who is a facial aesthetics practitioner and Benji thank you for joining us today and thanks for your time.

Benji Dhillon: You’re welcome thanks for having me.

Prav Solanki: Benji I just want to go back to your backstory really. Tell us about your childhood, growing up, what sort of parenting did you have?

Benji Dhillon: So proper Asian upbringing, destined to become account, lawyer, dentist, or doctor at some point in my career. But interestingly I came from a family of no medics or dentists whatsoever. My mom dabbled with a bit of nursing. But always brought up with a strong ethos in studying hard as most Asians probably understand. Or people from ethic backgrounds. But dad was a first generation immigrant. Orphaned from a very young age when he arrived in England, having travelled across the ocean as many Indians did back then. As a result my upbringing was quite a firm one because he went without and he wanted me to understand how hard things came. So looking back it was a very important part of my upbringing and mom was from Malaysia but also an Indian. And actually had a very similar outlook on life. So I had a great childhood. Born and brought up on the south coast in Brighton with my little sister. And we never really went without but we were always made to understand how hard it came if that makes sense.

Prav Solanki: Yeah so my upbringing was kind of tough and I remember the one guiding principle of my father gave to me and my brother was; the reason I’m working so hard and doing what I do is I don’t want you to do what I do. I want to be better than me. And so was that a similar thing in terms of, was there a big emphasis on say, education and you being, was it “I want you to be a doctor?” Was that their dream for you to become a doctor?

Benji Dhillon: Yeah I think it was their dream for me to be a doctor but they were always open to me being any type of professional if that makes sense.

Prav Solanki: Like a lawyer?

Benji Dhillon: Yeah a lawyer, an accountant. I was terrible at math so that was out the window. But yes, the upbringing involved me understanding how hard my parents worked. They always made sure I understood that I had to work harder than them. So I think it was a bit different because of my dad’s background and the story he went through that he didn’t necessarily give give give to me. He almost made me understand from day one that I had to earn everything I got. And that’s even to this day. Despite me being a professional and having a family he still treats me the same way. So yes it was always an understanding that hardworking ethos, you get out what you put in. And I was always made to understand that from very early on.

Prav Solanki: So growing up when you say you didn’t go without but you didn’t get everything just give us a bit of concepts on that. So kids in my school had Nike shoe trainers and I got the Knicks from the local market. So what’s your version?

Benji Dhillon: I got the Robucks not the Reeboks. No exactly the same as you Prav. We had to earn what we wanted if that makes sense. So I’ll never forget the story when I was probably about 12 or 13 I went into a sports store with my mom and I saw this Olympus jumper I don’t know if you remember Olympus from back in the day?

Prav Solanki: Yeah yeah.

Benji Dhillon: And I absolutely loved this jumper. I wanted this jumper, nothing like it. And mom said I had to achieve X, Y, Z at school over a period of three months or so and by the time, I achieved those grades and achieved those objectives, the jumper had gone out of stock and out of fashion. But it really involved me having to do things to get something. Probably the best story I ever had is when I started doing my A levels. My parents said if I get three As at A level, they will buy me a Mercedes as my first car. So naturally like any child I was absolutely over the moon. I got the three As, asked for the Mercedes and my dad nearly capital punishment, nearly slapped me around the face. Going, did I ever really expect to get that Mercedes? So they never held true to that promise. But I had to earn what I got.

Payman: Where did you study?

Benji Dhillon: School was Brighton College in Brighton. So mom and dad worked tremendously hard like I’m sure a lot of parents, to pay for private school for my sister and I. And that led onto medical school which was Guy’s Hospital in London-Bridge.

Payman: During the guys and pommies or was it King’s by that time?

Benji Dhillon: It was just after the merger so it was actually King’s but–

Payman: Guys never stay Kings do they?

Benji Dhillon: I associate with guy’s purely because-

Payman: You’re a King’s boy right?

Benji Dhillon: No I don’t like to call myself a King’s boy because I played rugby for King’s hospital. So yes it was part of King’s but we played rugby against King’s Hospital.

Payman: So you’re a rug bugger?

Benji Dhillon: Yeah I was a bit. At least I thought I was. I think I played in the thirds most of the time.

Payman: So you enjoyed university?

Benji Dhillon: Oh I loved university. Coming up from Brighton up to the big smoke in London was incredible.

Payman: Playing rugby in medical school, was it the same in Oxford?

Prav Solanki: More about rowing.

Payman: Yeah in medical school rugby sort of disproportionately gets-

Benji Dhillon: It’s like a religion in and of itself.

Payman: Because I was in Cardiff and there it is a religion in the whole town, let alone in the medical school. But I wasn’t ready for that. My brother was in Guy’s and he said something about rugger buggers. But I got there, I got to Cardiff and I realised rugby boys are royalty and I was like, “What’s going on here?” And the funny thing is it kind of grows on you doesn’t it? We ended up going to a few games and so on. So you enjoyed it. Where you a good student, were you like near the top of the class or were you-?

Benji Dhillon: I was terrible to begin with. My first term I think going to university, being away from home. Probably the stereotypical thing, went to my head. And I remember my tutor at the time calling me in that I had failed the first term’s exams and that if I didn’t buck up he would tell my mom and dad and that was the last thing I wanted. I think it was an empty threat but I was too scared of it actually coming to fruition that I changed the game completely. And yeah I studied hard really for the rest of the six year’s university.

Payman: I remember my brother saying he found it really hard that everyone was really good in medical school compared to school where he was kind of top of his class.

Prav Solanki: It’s a huge shift, right?

Payman: Suddenly you’re surrounded by brilliant people.

Benji Dhillon: You are but how I look at medicine, I don’t know about dentistry, I’m a firm believer I think anyone can do it. In terms of the study and the academic side. I think what it really takes is just the effort. It’s the time commitment at the age of 18 to 23 to really put away that time to read those sorry mundane books on physiology.

Prav Solanki: When your friends are doing history or English.

Benji Dhillon: And they have two sessions a week and then they’re off doing other things. So I think everyone can do it but yeah there were some really bright people but actually the majority were normal like me but just decided to put in the effort.

Payman: And so you said, we were talking before, you said pretty early on you got interested in plastics?

Benji Dhillon: Yes yes so it was within my first year I did something called a special study module. And it was pure luck that I actually got into plastics. And I remember walking through my first operation ever and it was what we call a breast reconstruction with an autologous flap. It was a flap from the stomach. And then they had to basically plummet into some of the thoracic vessels under a massive microscope. And I was blown away by this. I mean to go into your first operation and forgive me if there are general surgeons listening to this but it wasn’t appendisectomy it was real hardcore surgery that was changing a patient’s life. I was blown away by the people they were really intelligent, they were really smart. And at the time I loved anatomy as well so it kind of started me on my journey.

Prav Solanki: In your first year?

Benji Dhillon: My first year yeah.

Prav Solanki: Some people go into plastics because of the glamour of it right? The potential for earning huge amounts of money, doing work that’s aesthetically leasing. But a lot of people don’t have appreciation for what you’ve just described there which is the reconstructive and almost the need based plastic.

Payman: Burns.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah I actually I don’t think that’s the case in the UK. It might be in other countries. I know it’s the case in the US because I spent an elective for a month out in New York in plastics. But I don’t think that’s the case in the UK. I think most people go into medicine with an awareness that they’re not going to earn a great deal of money in the NHS. Plastics I think appeals to people academically and technically. It’s taking the level to which you can use your hands practically to a whole different plane. The intricacy of the surgery, the intricacy of the work. So I think that’s actually what appeals to people. And it’s funny when you look at those plastic surgeons I entered into training with then, to them being consultant plastic surgeons now. Some have stayed in the NHS, some have branched into private work but actually still really respect their NHS work. They’re not just chasing the money.

Payman: So you started plastics training after qualifying as a doctor?

Benji Dhillon: Yes.

Payman: How many years of that did you do?

Benji Dhillon: I did, how of the medical school you have to do your rotations, your house jobs, etc. You then decided whether you want to go into, well what type of specialty surgery, general practise or not. Did a couple of years in that and then you enter, I did two years of surgical training within plastic surgery before I decided to leave the NHS all together and pursue new frontiers. That was probably the most interesting part of my life because I had just had my first child.

Payman: How old were you?

Benji Dhillon: I was, I should know this, I was 27 when I had my first daughter. I’ve got three now. And I was realising very quickly, yes there’s a lot of work involved with what you need to do in any specialty but particularly plastics. I wasn’t seeing a great deal of her or my wife. The on-calls, surgical on-calls were really kind of getting me down. But more so it was that I’d gone into surgery because I loved using my hands and a lot of management changes were happening and quotas were having to be met. As a result, the actual amount of surgery I was able to do was being taken down by managers, not by our consultants who were equally as livid. And I got disaffected with the NHS massively. And I just decided I needed to explore the world outside of medicine. Coming from a family of no medics, I realised there was something else. And I very quickly just ended up speaking to someone about pharmaceutical medicine and that’s how I then ended up becoming a medical director of a big pharmaceutical company.

Prav Solanki: Which was?

Benji Dhillon: Allergan.

Payman: Medical director of Allergan.

Benji Dhillon: Yep medical director of Allergan.

Payman: Well go on take me thorough. That was a big jump.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah it was a very big jump and I didn’t know what I was doing at the time if I’m honest.

Payman: How did you see the job advertised?

Benji Dhillon: No it was actually, the burns unit I was working on, because I was doing a burns rotation in plastics. I was doing a night shift and I started speaking with one of the, well the receptionist of the burns unit and I started expressing my discontent with medicine at the time. And she mentioned that her father was a GP, had left medicine, and had gone into pharmaceuticals. Which I knew nothing about. She said, “Look just have a chat with him, see what other things there are out there you could do.” I think it was the day after I gave him a call, lovely guy. And he was the vice president of Allergan at the time for medical affairs. I think couple of weeks after we had a beer and something to eat and he almost offered me a job on the spot having no ex-

Payman: What year was that?

Prav Solanki: So you were 26 when you had your first?

Benji Dhillon: 27 when I had my first child. The year I went into Allergan was, oh god, was about 2010, 2011 yeah around that time. So I’d done a fair bit of work in the NHS–

Payman: So you were pretty established by that time? I mean it’s a bigger thing now than it was then but they were still pretty established at that point.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah within aesthetics because that’s the role I went into. Became the medical director for aesthetics for Africa and Middle East. Yeah I mean they had created the market for what we know as facial aesthetics. They discovered Botox, they developed the whole market around Botox. They brought to market a number of dermal fillers and now a number of devices so yeah they-

Payman: You went straight into that job did you or did you climb into that?

Benji Dhillon: No I pretty much went straight into it yeah.

Prav Solanki: Were you doing much injecting then at all or?

Benji Dhillon: I had done a little bit using Botox for things like facial palsy’s in the NHS which is used, more so now than it was then. But I had no experience with things like dermal fillers and things like that. To be honest I had no idea what they were.

Prav Solanki: Right place, right time, right people.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah exactly. And like you say it was just meeting right people at the right time.

Payman: What gave you the confidence to think you could do that job, you know, as a medic?

Benji Dhillon: I don’t know if it was confidence or ignorance. I’ve always believed I can do something whether I am any good at it or not. I’ve always believed myself and backed myself to a degree. And I’m a big believer that you go into something and learn on the job as quickly as possible. And I think that goes across the board.

Payman: What’s involved in the job? Was it managing people?

Benji Dhillon: Actually a larger part of it was working with the marketing team who wanted to make claims and obviously sell more product.

Payman: They needed the money.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah and it was more about justifying some of those claims, are they saying the right thing, are they misleading people? But actually the best part of the job was two things. One, developing more data so setting up clinical studies, postmarketing studies around the products. And then meeting and talking to physicians and surgeons worldwide that are using these products and learning how we could make them better. Or even how we could make new products.

Payman: Were you involved in product development?

Benji Dhillon: Yep, yeah as the medical director you get involved in product development. Working with R and D. So I mean multi-faceted. Then I ended up managing what we call Amicells. Medical science liaisons across Europe, Africa, Middle East. There’s about ten at one point. And then you’re learning people management which I’d never done before.

Payman: What was the experience that must have-?

Benji Dhillon: Oh it was amazing, great company.

Payman: Were you travelling a lot?

Benji Dhillon: Travelled a lot yeah. And at first it was really exciting, really glamorous. But it soon gets to you, the amount of travelling you have to do.

Payman: Yeah but I bet your contemporaries who are still in NHS hospitals were thinking-

Benji Dhillon: Oh god yes. I’ll never forget this good story. I remember the first flight I had to go on to Denver. And I’ll be honest I’d never flown business class before then. And I remember getting and the secretary at the office had booked my flight. Turned up and they said I’m in business class. And I honestly thought there was a mistake. Expecting to go economy. I remember sitting in the lounge that day how my life maybe six months prior, where I struggled to get a digestive on an NHS ward and all of a sudden I was sitting in the lounge at Heathrow. And I can drink a glass of champagne and how my life had come full circle.

Payman: It’s funny because I’ve had the opposite problem with the speaker before where I booked him a business class ticket and he was expecting a first.

Benji Dhillon: Oh god. Well this is the problem. Expectations rise.

Payman: But go on.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah and I remember telling more of my buddies that were still in the NHS and still are today that wow here I am and I think at that time you lose perspective a bit. You think, “Wow this is really amazing this is really glamorous.” In hindsight could I have more respect for my friends who are in the NHS, doing what they do, not because I feel sorry for them it’s the opposite, but because they’ve stayed true to what they love, what they believe in and are trying to be really good at it at the same time. So yeah it was an incredible experience but I’m kind of done with that, the whole travelling side.

Payman: So how many years were you with Allergan?

Benji Dhillon: I was there just under four years. Three and a half to four years. And the last sort of six months was a very interesting time because Allergan was in the process of being acquired by a larger company. It was firstly Valeant Pharmaceuticals, in fact there’s a Netflix documentary on them, who tried to buy them which failed. And then subsequently Activist who’s a very big generics company who came and took over. So whilst that was going on I felt I learnt as much as I could, I’d met some great people but I really wanted to get back into using my hands. And during my years that I’d started injecting and started doing all the fillers, Botox and I’d learnt from the incredible people around me, and I just thought it was the right time to get out. And I met a doctor that who had his own clinic and very quickly we agreed to start working together.

Payman: Who was that?

Benji Dhillon: That was a chap called Tapin Patel. He’s an aesthetic doctor in London. He has his own clinic on Holly Street. And I spent close to three years with him. It was an incredible experience, he’s one of the best there is and he taught me, I mean my learning curve would have probably been a lot slower and he taught me things a lot quicker. So yeah it was a great time.

Prav Solanki: As a medic whose doing this, injecting and so forth, and you see dentists doing it, have they put a stop to nurses and non-medics?

Benji Dhillon: No no. As it stands if you look from the dermal filler side practically anyone can inject it.

Payman: Really still?

Benji Dhillon: Yeah yeah absolutely. So pharmacists are open to it, I think paramedic drivers, dental hygienists, dental nurses. On the Botox side which is obviously a prescription medicine it’s only really doctors dentists with prescribing rights as well as now nurse prescribers that can prescribe and inject as well. I think underneath your question is do I have a problem with everyone else injecting it? I don’t. The most important thing is people do it right. As it stands within the UK, legally all these different people can inject and do these treatments. I think people like myself that teach and the other educators out there have a responsibility to educate everyone and not say, “I’m not going to teach a paramedic or a dental hygienists.” But really try to raise the bar because if quality’s improved and outcome’s improved it only benefits the whole industry which already has a stigma attached to it which we want to take away.

Payman: So if you ruled the world, what would you say regarding whose allowed to do this and whose not?

Benji Dhillon: That’s a double edged sword question isn’t it?

Payman: No it isn’t because you could be training a dental hygienists tomorrow whose paying you but you’re working within the regulatory environment we’re in.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah I am. It would be, so all healthcare professionals I’m open to that. Whether it’s a dental hygienists, a paramedic. However I think what is required is people have a sound knowledge and foundation in anatomy. And I think there almost has to be some legal requirement for everyone to go through some anatomical training and examination process which they’re actually trying to implement now, which allow them to go into that next stage of injecting.

Prav Solanki: And do you think that can be learnt in a one day course?

Benji Dhillon: Absolutely not. No. Anatomy is, it’s life-long learning. There are anatomists that are constantly learning, so to think you can go in, and there are one day courses that te-. In fact in a one day course there’s probably only 20 minutes that’s focused on anatomy. There’s no way people can understand unless they’re currently learning themselves.

Payman: So if I wanted to, look I’ve never ever given a Botox or a filler, let’s say I want to get into this. What would you say is my minimum education level I should not legally or morally but what would you advise me as your brother let’s say whose trying to get into this, what should be my minimum amount of education that I get…if I’m trying to get into this?

Benji Dhillon: What should be or what is?

Payman: What should be.

Benji Dhillon: What should be. So I think what should be.

Payman: What would you advise me if I want to get into this field?

Benji Dhillon: I think there are two options. So say you were my brother and you wanted to get into it I’d be like, and you’ve got a background in medicine.

Payman: I’m a dentist as it happens.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah you know your anatomy. I hope, I’m sure you do. I would say, “Look just come and spend a day with me, observe me, let’s talk through things.” That’s kind of the minimum really that’s required for you to enter this space.

Payman: What would you advise me to do?

Benji Dhillon: What I would advise you is go on a course. There are a number of really good courses that have level seven certification now that you have to sit a number of exams. Some of them have coursework, projects that really try and solidify your understanding of anatomy, some degree of physiology, the products, safe injecting, managing complications.

Payman: So I guess you’d advise more than a one day course? How many would be minimum number of days?

Benji Dhillon: Absolutely. I think it’s a minimum time period. I think really it’s a six month time period where you have ongoing learning on a course. You have ongoing supervision with an experienced injector and ongoing treatment feedback. So it’s about seeing you inject or treat someone with someone standing over your shoulder. Because anyone can go, and in the most simple way, go an treat a frown line with Botox. But if you want to get really nice results even with something people think is simple like Botox, if you want to make it really sort of high level, it takes time to develop those skills. It isn’t as simple as people make out I think.

Payman: Sure sure.

Prav Solanki: Benji have you ever made a mistake when injecting? Clinical error, mistake?

Benji Dhillon: Yeah yeah yeah absolutely.

Prav Solanki: What was the biggest mistake that you’ve made?

Benji Dhillon: I would say the biggest mistake, it’s really aesthetic, I think the biggest mistake will come down to aesthetic outcomes. And it was very early on, putting the wrong amount or the wrong type of product in someone’s mid-face. That lead to a slightly unnatural result. And the patient was unhappy. It was an unnatural result and at the time I realised and I looked back, it was a very unnatural result. But it’s something you can rectify, with things like dermal fillers you can break them down, they’re reversible. But yeah everyone goes through that. Anyone who says they haven’t had any bad outcomes or complications-

Payman: What’s a common error that not so experienced practitioners make?

Benji Dhillon: Aesthetic results. So it’s again wrong product or wrong placement of the product in any part of the face that lend to unnatural results. And actually a lot of that doesn’t come down to your technique, it comes down to your assessment. And that’s what takes time. It’s looking at someone’s face, understanding what could do with improving, what could do with addressing and how you do it. And that’s very much a theoretical kind of thing in your mind that has to be developed over time before you implement that. Because every relatively confident person can hold a needle and syringe. And pierce the dermas and deposit product. But what takes time is what way you’re doing it. It’s the planning exactly. And I’m sure that’s the same in dentistry.

Payman: So many things yeah.

Prav Solanki: You see a lot of these girls with huge lips. Like people talk trout pout and things like that. Can you reverse that?

Benji Dhillon: Yes depending on what products. So if a hyaluronic acid based filler has been used you can use a product called hyaluronidase which is the enzyme which breaks down HA. Yes it’s reversible. But there are some permanent or semi-permanent fillers that aren’t HA based which you can’t reverse.

Prav Solanki: Ok, so do you see many patients like that?

Benji Dhillon: Thankfully not in my practise. But yes you do yeah yeah absolutely. You see them at a particular aesthetic congresses. So yeah you do see a lot of people with that.

Prav Solanki: Do patients come to you and say, “Can you fix this?”

Benji Dhillon: Yeah absolutely I think there’s two groups of people right? There are people that want that look. So they’re not going to come to you and say, “Can you fix this?” There are some people where they’re not happy with the outcome and that’s- either they’re bigger than they expected or products moved into the wrong position and yes you see those patients.

Prav Solanki: So patient out there whose had a result they’re not happy with and they want to come and see you. How quickly can you break that down?

Benji Dhillon: Pretty much straight away. Yeah you can, they come in same day you can use hyaluronidase and break it down.

Prav Solanki: Immediate results?

Benji Dhillon: You do get some degree of immediate results. I always say leave it for about two weeks before we look at it again to take down the swelling and see the real result.

Payman: I’ve got a question. Look, sometimes I’m sitting in I don’t know Marbella somewhere and there’s a particular look that I put down to someone that’s sort of got too much for too long. Is that a thing or am I just seeing bad results and there’s plenty of other people walking around who I don’t realise have had it done? Is there a long term effect on overdoing it or whatever?

Benji Dhillon: Yes and no to your answer. Yeah there’s kind of a few different responses to that question. I think there is a particular look and you’ve almost got to look at the United States as a case example. You’ve got very much a west Coast East Coast look and that often the more artificial looking outcomes where again, too much product or wrong type of product in the wrong place. And it does lend to that unnatural result. Full cheeks, smaller eyes, full lips that you can tell that someone’s had something done. Over time if more and more is put it, skin has something called creep, yes you’re going to distort the soft tissues and you’re going to have to almost maintain that to a degree. I’m a big believer that facial aesthetic treatment should be used in a way that no one knows you’ve had it done. And it’s all about being age appropriate. I do not believe that say a 50 year old should be made to look like a 30 year old. Because it will look obvious. 50 year old should just be made to look really well refreshed, less tired, less angry, less sad. Taking away all those negative emotional attributes but making age appropriate.

Payman: There is a definite down ageing going on in terms of people asking treatment to the younger age these days.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah absolutely.

Payman: I was a dentist and she was 27 something, I’m getting my Botox done. And people see it as a preventative.

Prav Solanki: We’ve got nurses who are getting it done at age 19-20.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah absolutely. Listen the younger market, I’d say 25 and below is really expanded in recent years due to social media influencing.

Payman: Is it a good idea?

Benji Dhillon: I don’t traditionally like to treat people under the age of 25. It makes me uncomfortable. I always go back to my moral compass. I have three girls and I don’t want them, when they’re 19, 20, without me knowing, going to someone else. So I see it as a responsibility. However there are some people at that age that have things that could be corrected that negatively affect them. A really good example is dark eye circles. Under eye hollows. For some people it’s genetic. And it gets people down, they have these really sunken eyes. They look tired. They’re only 21, 22 but people keep on saying they’re tired. They’re not. You can address those but the most important thing with this group of people is they understand what they’re having done. Have they explored all the options? Even at the age of 21 22 I always say, “Have you discussed this with your parents?” It could be really patronising.

Payman: That’s the Asian in you coming out.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah I do I do because, it’s the Asian in me. Some people don’t talk to their parents at that age but I always try to explore those. And it takes time to really elicit, informed consent but also are they understanding everything around the procedure?

Payman: What do you do for someone’s whose got dark like me?

Benji Dhillon: So I mean if there’s volume loss under the eyes, dermal fillers can be used to really restore what we call that lid to cheek contour. A lot of people are worried about pigmentation under the eyes, that’s a really hard thing to treat. That’s very very challenging. Sometimes if there’s hollowness with pigmentation, it can improve the look of the pigmentation but sometimes it doesn’t. So it really depends on the individual.

Payman: Do you ever think in the future like in 100 year’s time they’re going to look back on this period and say, “Those guys are crazy they were sticking poison into their faces for aesthetics.” And the long term possibility of that being an issue. They must have done a whole field of research into this right?

Benji Dhillon: Yeah I mean-

Payman: Do we know? How long has it been going.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah I’ll say from the medical side but in probably 100 years they may go, “oh my god why did people stick poison on their teeth to make their smiles better?” So I think what it comes down to, okay so Botox for example do we understand it 100%. Yeah we know but Botox has been around for a very long time. And lot of it has been used in the medical side so to treat children with cerebral palsy with contractures, people with migraines, osteoarthritis is now being investigated for use in, urinary incontinence, after strokes. There is literally an arsenal of medical uses that is used in much much much higher doses that really well conducted clinical studies have been done that show that there’s no real, it’s safe inverted commas.

Benji Dhillon: So within the cosmetic field, I personally don’t have any concerns based on the data that there’s going to be any long term issues but again it comes back to, it’s the aesthetic look. If we are creating frozen faces all around and then communities lose expressions then yes it does have a negative social effect.

Payman: Changes society.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah it changes society.

Prav Solanki: Benji let’s go away from injecting and certainly for me also you Payman, we have a moment in our life when we hit rock bottom. For me one of them was when my grandfather passed away when I was younger. Have you got any moments in your life that you sort of hit absolute rock bottom and what were they? Could you share them with us?

Benji Dhillon: Yeah I would say probably the first one is, well actually I say they’re three. One is my grandfather I lost him when I was about 17 just like yours, very close to him, incredible man, influenced me growing up. And it was very sudden, it was a heart attack. So that really hit me early on and I think at that age really introduced me to the concept of death.

Prav Solanki: Where were you?

Benji Dhillon: I was actually away on a Model United Nations trip with school. And I wasn’t told the news by my parents whilst I was away and I got back home, mom, my sister weren’t there, dad broke the news to me then and we shot straight up to London where my grandfather was. That was difficult time losing someone you love.

Prav Solanki: First time you’d lost someone?

Benji Dhillon: Yeah first time I’d lost someone. That was really tough but we have a great big family and the network helped heal that. I think probably the second thing is when my dad became quite ill. He’s, again I call it the Asian curse, it’s cardiovascular disease, it’s diabetes, etc. etc. He basically died on a table in the lead up to having a cardiac bypass and I was by his bedside when it happened. That was challenging because you’re helpless number one. You’ve got a medical team around you that, there’s nothing you can really do or add.

Prav Solanki: How long ago was that?

Benji Dhillon: That was just before my first daughter was born.

Prav Solanki: So you were a qualified medic?

Benji Dhillon: Yeah I was qualified. I think it was 2009. It was really difficult because I’ve got my mom and my sister are going hysterical around me. I’d been exposed to death and illness in medicine and it was very funny because at that moment I expected myself to react like my family but I almost became a medic in that moment and just looked at things objectively. But I think the realisation came that what happened to my dad that all of a sudden the responsibility falls to me for my mom and my sister. And I was just married at the time as well. So a lot of emotional thoughts going through my head then.

Prav Solanki: And you feel like you’re the rock in your family, that you would be the person that would hold everyone together if say your mom and your sister if the worst was to happen?

Benji Dhillon: I’d like to think so. I think I’m probably, they’re going to kill me if they hear this, a bit emotionally more stable than them. Not in a negative way that they’re emotional but I think I just look at things more objectively. So I’d like to think that I’m probably the rock. To be honest I actually think the rock now in our family is my wife because she’s a lot more [inaudible] and she can deal with things a lot better than anyone around me.

Payman: What was your professional low point?

Benji Dhillon: It was actually this year when I realised I wanted to set up my own clinic and for various reasons where I was and the clinic I spoke about earlier, I think communication errors occurred between myself and the clinic as to when and how I was going to leave to set up my own business occurred. And I think, we didn’t leave on bad terms but it left me in a space where I didn’t know whether I was coming or going. I didn’t have a new business to go to, I was leaving that business and foolishly we’d bought a new house earlier on. Because I didn’t know I was going to set up a new business. I did all the things you shouldn’t do at the same time. Buy a new house, set a new business, and there’s no money left in the bank. And I think that was the first time in my career where I was investing in something, didn’t have anything tangible yet to hold onto and had no money in the bank. And with three little kids, overheads through the roof I was scared.

Prav Solanki: What was going through your head at that time because you go from this point of you’ve never been a business owner before am I right?

Benji Dhillon: No, no.

Prav Solanki: So you go from this point of being wither employee or associate to then saying, “Hey I want to run me own business.” What was the defining moment where you said, “Do you know what this is what I need to do.”

Benji Dhillon: Yeah. I think it was a number of things. I’ve always had that kind of entrepreneurial spirit built into me because of what my dad did. He ran his own business. So there’s always been this thing, always be your own boss was at the back of, was this little voice singing to me at the back. And I think as I got into aesthetics there were things that I just wanted to do in my vision and in my way. And I think as I get a bit older and my kids got a bit older and then all of a sudden I thought, “Actually I want my own security for my family and I want to develop something that I’m in control of.” But making that jump from thinking it to doing it I think it’s just like jumping off a cliff almost.

Prav Solanki: And you’re on that journey now right?

Benji Dhillon: Yeah I’m currently in the middle of it.

Payman: When did you open it?

Benji Dhillon: We’re not open yet.

Payman: Oh you’re not open yet?

Benji Dhillon: No no so we are hoping to open the end of January so refurbing a rather large building.

Prav Solanki: In the West End?

Benji Dhillon: No no this is out in Buckingsfield in Buckinghamshire. So I made a conscious decision to go out of London.

Prav Solanki: Do you live there as well.

Benji Dhillon: I live in Beckinsville. I live 40 minute walk from the proposed new clinic. And I’ve done it for lifestyle choices as well.

Prav Solanki: I can already see the yummy mummys of Beaconsfield.

Benji Dhillon: Be fantastic good yeah.

Prav Solanki: And are you scared?

Benji Dhillon: Oh I’m terrified yeah I think everyday something new scares me.

Prav Solanki: If you were to imagine the biggest possible disaster for this business, what would it be?

Benji Dhillon: It doesn’t work.

Prav Solanki: What does that mean?

Payman: Running out of money.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah yeah running out, no patients coming through the door, no one believes in the vision I’ve had in my head so they just think it’s a farce. No one coming through the door, overhead’s through the roof, basically we have to sell our house to pay the debt.

Prav Solanki: So tell us more about this concept because it is a fairly new concept type clinic that you’re setting up so just give everyone a little bit of background in terms of what you’re doing, who you’re doing it with.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah of course. I mean over the last year or so I’ve been exposed to the dental world more so than I ever have done in my past. Really really luckily so because at the school my children go to, in the same class is a cosmetic dentist based on Harley street Mark Hughs and we just got talking at a birthday I’ll never forget it was in a hut. And we just-

Payman: Pizza?

Benji Dhillon: No no it was like this yurt. I mean kid’s birthday parties are done in the most, to be honest I would have preferred a Pizza Hut this place was freezing. So we go talking and realised we were on the same page, I knew nothing about cosmetic dentistry. To be honest dentistry to me was fillings. I had no idea of the options such as veneers or whiting etc. despite where I am now. And I actually began a journey with him undergoing a small makeover for myself. I realised very quickly that there was an analogy or sorry a similarity between what we did. We were dealing with the same real estate which is the face. And soon after Mark and I this is when I was at Harley Street we started referring other patients and there was some patients as I understood more about teeth and what it does to the face. I actually started referring patients to go see him first before they had any soft tissue work with me. Because I though it’s optimise their result and actually they’ll get more almost ROI on doing their teeth than they would on soft tissues. And actually he did vice versa. And we actually ended up getting really good outcomes associated with that. And happier patients because we were honest.

Benji Dhillon: We started speaking about doing something together and when the idea came up for me opening my own place I thought, “Why don’t we do it under one roof?” Have under one roof the offering of facial aesthetics and body aesthetics with myself as well as cosmetic dentistry. So again we’re offering a 360 service for the face. I think one of the things we’ve really tried to expand on is that, and I know there are lots of dentists that do facial aesthetics but this is Mark coming in not doing facial aesthetics. So we’re really specialised in what we deliver and how we deliver it because yes the consultations are relatively similar but there are some nuances between a cosmetic dental consultation.

Payman: It’s in the nuances where excellence really comes out.

Benji Dhillon: Precisely yeah.

Payman: And so he lives there as well does he?

Benji Dhillon: He lives just outside of Beaconsfield but not too far. He’s basically going to head up the team out there as I am as well.

Prav Solanki: When are you looking to launch?

Benji Dhillon: Hoping early February to launch. It’s going to be, I mean it’s a very old grey two listed building. We’ve got over 4,000 square feet to fit out. We’re going to have three to four dental chairs, about four to five medical rooms, we have a laser room. We’ve got a training studio where we’re going to, a custom built training suite as well.

Payman: Starting small then?

Benji Dhillon: Yeah. As I said early on I believe in myself and I don’t know if it’s ignorance or not.

Payman: That’s a big risk you’re taking.

Benji Dhillon: It’s a massive risk but I’ve always had this vision in my head of a patient experience.

Payman: Go on.

Benji Dhillon: Our patients are our gold dust to what we do. And we’ve really got to treat them amazingly. I want my patients, and Mark’s patients, I want them to walk in somewhere that feels like an experience. They are almost walking somewhere that they would attribute with a top end spa. You’ve got to marry that with a clinical excellence and the clinical service and the clinical feel. But as a result it’s taken time to find the right space that can lend itself to that kind of patient experience.

Payman: Is it a spa look you’re going for?

Benji Dhillon: In terms the waiting room area yes, I question myself whether we should be spending the money on that area.

Payman: You should.

Benji Dhillon: You waver don’t you when it comes to money, should I shouldn’t I? But it’s something I firmly believe in I want it to look and feel amazing.

Prav Solanki: First impressions right?

Benji Dhillon: Correct yeah.

Payman: I told this story sometimes. I must have been to five hundred more dental practises and I’m dentist and so I know everything about what’s going on in the main room and the difference between a good dentist and a bad dentist and so on and so forth. And yet I still now even today after everything’s that happened I draw all sorts of conclusions about the practise based on the quality of the coffee they give, the quality of the waiting room. Whether there’s blue tack everywhere saying if you miss your appointment. Private clinics. And fully aware that you can bring in brilliant coffee and have terrible dentistry. I’m fully aware of that and yet I still draw conclusions.

Benji Dhillon: Of course you do it’s human nature.

Payman: The patients though, the man on the street hasn’t got all that insight that I’ve got so of course he’s going to be drawing similar conclusions.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah precisely. I’m a firm believer in we’ve got to make people, what we do within cosmetic dentistry or cosmetic medicine, we’re making people feel good about themselves. I had my teeth done. Honestly speaking, yes it made my smile better but it made me feel really good about myself. I was just more confident smiling in photos and stuff. So that experience has to start obviously on the phone bu the moment they walk in and I’m so pedantic about little things like you’re saying blue tack, it’s go to feel special. They’ve got to feel special. How they’re greeted, how they’re looked after, to the time and effort we’ve put in to how we’re designing it. Down to the materials.

Payman: So you’re going to use white tack right?

Benji Dhillon: We’re going to hide everything. Yeah pushed under the sofa as well.

Payman: Concierge style service that you’re going to provide. A big part of that is whose going to be there, the people.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah of course. Do you mean staff-wise?

Payman: Yeah yeah yeah.

Benji Dhillon: I mean I’m in that journey now I’m in recruitment. I don’t know how, we’re going to try and find the best people we can as I’m sure anywhere will.

Payman: Experienced with hiring people. You’re obviously in a good situation because he’s made so many open, so many different practises. It’s interesting this question of the experience of the person who comes in and exactly what they’re going to feel as well as of course getting the medical side right but have you got any insight into what’s going to be your USP over the next medical aesthetic clinic?

Benji Dhillon: I think one is very much you’re coming there with the option to be assessed, the whole face to be assessed. So we’re always about doing right by you and making sure you spend your money to our patients in the best possible way that’s going to improve your aesthetic. Whether that means you coming in firstly because you don’t like your frown lines, actually we can say, “No your frown lines aren’t the right thing to do we’ll do a free dental assessment. You may consider doing your teeth instead.” And spending your money and potentially not spending your money on facial aesthetics. So I think, and that’s a matter of walking across a hallway rather than going down the road so I think we’re there to deliver the best outcome for you that you may not know about. It’s the same, I’ve got to look at facial aesthetics. People will come in always for these nose to mouth lines what we call nasolabial lines. I hate treating those because sometimes they may have really dark circles. You need those treated. I would assume the equivalent is in teeth. People think they want this done on their teeth and actually as a dentist you’re looking at the best aesthetics outcome is going to be doing that instead.

Payman: They want veneers but whitening’s the right.

Benji Dhillon: Correct so we’re effectively cross-selling that expertise to each other.

Payman: Are you also going to go down the laser hair removal and fat sculpting thing?

Benji Dhillon: No to laser hair removal, yes to fat sculpting.

Payman: Sorry.

Benji Dhillon: No no it’s all right. Fat freezing, fat warming. Laser hair removal is very much a beauty salon treatment. There are some amazing clinics that do it but you just can’t compare with the cost that beauty salons are charging for it. Yes body sculpting, non-invasive body sculpting. We’re all about effectively non-surgical, non-invasive options.

Payman: So what’s currently hot is that the thing? What are the public into right now?

Benji Dhillon: The public are really into body sculpting.

Payman: Does it work?

Benji Dhillon: Yeah it does work. You’ve got to look at the-

Payman: Talk us through, what happens?

Prav Solanki: Six pack?

Benji Dhillon: Close to. Prav you don’t need it anyway I know you’re ripped under that shirt. It’s non-invasive body sculpting or fat reduction is what it says on the tin. It’s no cuts, no blood nothing like that and with very differing technologies we effectively break down the adiposities through apoptosis. So it’s controlled cell death, it’s not starting off a necrotic chain reaction. And the one we’re going to have called cool scoped which is something called cryolipolysis. You suck the tissue into these freezing plates, it cools in right down to where the fat cell dies and your body eliminates it. On average you look at about 25% reduction for an area. So it’s not complete reduction. The caveat is, it isn’t for everyone. You’ve got to basically be to a good shape, you’ve got to be going to the gym, eating well and it’s really for those stubborn pockets of fat.

Payman: There I was thinking I didn’t have to go to the gym.

Prav Solanki: What I would have thought is if it’s 25%, the bigger you are, the better the result.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah you’d think that right. But if there’s a larger percentage taken down by that percentage you can’t always see that percentage change.

Payman: How long do you have to do it, how long does it last?

Benji Dhillon: It’s a one off treatment. Yeah I mean you may need two treatments for an area depending on the size of it. But technically speaking you don’t need to retreat that area.

Prav Solanki: What’s the level of investment involved in something like that?

Benji Dhillon: It varies.

Prav Solanki: Approximately.

Benji Dhillon: I mean if you were to say look at love handles is one area, you’re probably looking about 2,000 pounds. Under the chin, so we can break down double chins now, you’re probably looking at about 1,500 pounds. If you want to do your whole stomach, love handles, your underarms, it could go up to like 5, 6,000 pounds.

Prav Solanki: Got you. Let’s talk about relationships so you’re got three kids?

Benji Dhillon: Three kids yeah yeah.

Prav Solanki: Tell me about your family.

Benji Dhillon: So I’ve been married for eleven years just gone. We’ve been together about 16, 17 years. First, second year of university I should remember. Yeah we’ve got three girls together, nine, seven and five and yeah they’re fantastic.

Prav Solanki: So you met at uni, is your wife a medic?

Benji Dhillon: No she’s a lawyer. So she was a solicitor, went to law school. We weren’t at the same university together. We were introduced by a friend of her older brother’s.

Prav Solanki: Is this like the modern day arranged marriage?

Benji Dhillon: Not really no.

Payman: The second year university.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah it was exactly. Funny because I came from Brighton so I didn’t really go out with anyone back in Brighton. I was kind of the kid that no one wanted to go out with. Still to this day that’s why I got married so early.

Prav Solanki: I don’t believe that for a second.

Benji Dhillon: And we got introduced by a mutual friends just because we had told them we had similar interests. And actually my wife came from a relatively traditional background. Parents didn’t want her to go out with someone but she took the risk. We met each other’s parents within two months we made that kind of commitment early on. So out a couple of years, I wanted to finish medical school before we actually got married.

Prav Solanki: Yeah so my brother was introduced to a girl and it wasn’t what you would call an arranged marriage but it was almost like, here’s this one similar backgrounds whatever. And then-

Benji Dhillon: No our parents had no idea.

Prav Solanki: No idea.

Benji Dhillon: No idea. And then I remember actually going to tell, ringing my mom saying I met someone I really like her.

Prav Solanki: What was that phone call like?

Benji Dhillon: Oh it was really uncomfortable because my mom was like I haven’t introduced you to her. I’ve got to introduce you to someone. The traditional Indian thing to do. And the same for her.

Prav Solanki: What was the first question your mom asked about her? Is she Indian?

Benji Dhillon: Is she Indian? Yeah yeah is she Indian was probably the first. Where does she come from? Where do her parents live? Yeah those were actually the first questions my mom asked. Which came basically from her grandma.

Payman: You’ve got three daughters, I’ve got one daughter that must be interesting so you’re the only testosterone in the house?

Benji Dhillon: Yeah I’m the only man yeah. I love it. Oh god I think I was born to be a father to daughters. I absolutely love having my girls. I mean yes I don’t get to.

Payman: I’m sure you do but go on tell us some of the nuances that come, a bit emotional?

Benji Dhillon: No I mean they’re still young.

Payman: How old are they?

Benji Dhillon: Nine, seven and five. So they’re still little. The older ones start to get into more, understanding more about herself, the world, etc. But girls want to play spa days, they want to pretend they’re in a spa giving massages and getting benefits from that. Dad gets a massage. Saves me a couple of bob. So yeah no I love it.

Prav Solanki: How do you feel about them having phones?

Benji Dhillon: Mobile phones, oh I’m dead set against it. At this point in their life, this age, we actually don’t, we barely let them watch TV at home. They don’t use I pads, they barely use the phone because I want their mind to develop in other ways. I want them to read because our generations we didn’t have it back then, we kept ourselves occupied. I want them using their imagination because I think this is when their mind is so malleable and I want them to think creatively. So they make up their own games, we insist upon it. They read and they do things like that.

Payman: I find it really interesting if my son was sitting there writing a letter, he’s get all sorts of praise but if he’s sitting there writing a text message he’d get all sorts of. But if you’re saying exactly the same thing in those two. It’s kind of this questions of reading, reading off a Kindle is that worse than?

Benji Dhillon: No so reading off a Kindle I have no problem with.

Payman: Reading off an I pad.

Benji Dhillon: I think there’s a few different things. It’s almost like an entry level right? You start using your I phone or I pad for things that are acceptable like reading, soon that becomes I don’t know going on Instagram. It’s a gateway drug. And also for the eyes, the hand-eye coordination I want them to learn to write and stuff like that.

Payman: Right I mean who writes? I had a massive argument with my kids.

Benji Dhillon: Listen they may want to be a dentist or a surgeon in the future.

Payman: Yeah but I mean writing, writing’s so 1997 isn’t it? My kid goes to a French school and they have to write three different types of writing. Italic thing. And yet no computer classes. And let’s face it, our kids won’t even be looking at computers, they’ll have some sort of.

Benji Dhillon: Absolutely Google Glass or something.

Payman: And yet writing away.

Benji Dhillon: I completely agree with you. My kids are fortunate they do have computer classes but I think all those things do is teach hand eye coordination is developing–

Prav Solanki: Motor skills.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah it’s developing multi-skills. So I want them to do those kind of things. But I don’t want them having a phone yet.

Prav Solanki: What’s the right age?

Benji Dhillon: That’s a good question.

Payman: It’s when all their friends get one.

Benji Dhillon: I have in my head 30 years old. In reality I don’t, I think once they get to 15, 16.

Payman: No no but at 11 all of her best friends will have phones.

Benji Dhillon: Oh they have them now. Nine years old my daughter’s year. Not all of them there’s probably a handful that do. And listen, that’s the parent’s decision, I would never say it’s wrong, I just don’t want it for my daughter just yet. It may happen at 13. I think it’s hard to know until you get to that time.

Prav Solanki: Protective fathers, boyfriends.

Benji Dhillon: Don’t get me on that. Me and my wife argue about that.

Prav Solanki: Let’s do it.

Benji Dhillon: Oh god now I feel uncomfortable.

Prav Solanki: What age?

Benji Dhillon: Oh god.

Prav Solanki: What’s the process?

Benji Dhillon: The process that’s a really good question. Listen it could happen without me knowing, I’m open to that all right.

Prav Solanki: Of course it is.

Benji Dhillon: I think it’s down to them, I don’t think there’s, in my head I don’t have a right age for them to have a boyfriend. Clearly you don’t want it too young right? But I want to equip them to make those decisions when the time is right.

Prav Solanki: Your daughter comes home, 14 years old from school and says, “Daddy I’ve got a boyfriend.” How’d you deal with that?

Benji Dhillon: I think my wife would probably scream at her before I do. How do I deal with it? Sit her down, I’ll understand who, what, why, when. I would in my eyes at 14 I don’t.

Prav Solanki: My hormones are racing Daddy.

Benji Dhillon: Oh god don’t, honestly I’m sweating thinking about it right now. Really difficult. I honestly don’t know how I’d deal with it until the time.

Prav Solanki: The reason I’m asking is my daughter came home at that age and said, “What do you think about boyfriends, what’s the right age?” 35. I said absolutely right?

Prav Solanki: If ever happen, I don’t want you to hide it I want you to feel like you can come and talk to me about it. And the next day she came and told me about her boyfriend Jasper.

Payman: And the day after that Jasper was gone.

Benji Dhillon: He wasn’t around anymore. I know he has a dark side to him.

Prav Solanki: But I think in these situations certainly as a father of three daughters myself it’s one of those things that’s always in the back of your mind, you discuss it with your wife, but you can never prepare for it until it actually happens.

Benji Dhillon: No you can’t. I think you hit the nail on the head. You’ve got to have a relationship where they feel comfortable talking to you about anything and everything. I have to admit one of my, I think I sometimes scare my girls a little bit, where I think one of them put a bit of nail polish on and they actually hid their hands from me. I’ve had to address that. It’s just because of the way I was brought up. I have a little sister, my dad was very much like that. But I’ve got to change. Yeah you don’t know how to deal with it.

Benji Dhillon: We were driving back from my daughter’s birthday the other night, the nine year old, four girls in the car, we’re driving back home, all talking in the car and I was listening to the radio and then all of a sudden I heard about kiss boy in the same sentence so I know these kids, I know their parents I was like, “Oh my god.” Getting nervous. And they started talking about kiss, one of the girls asked who’s kissed a boy? Bless them three of the girls go, “Oh the only boy I’ve kissed are my daddy or my brother.” I was like oh thank god. One of the girls she said, “Oh there was this boy I like, he wanted to kiss me and it didn’t happen.” But it was a conversation happening at that age already. Yeah I hope I can be as good as you dealing with that.

Payman: How about as a boss I mean you’ve never been a boss I guess I don’t know you’ve had people-

Benji Dhillon: I’ve had to manage people yeah but never been a true boss.

Payman: What kind of boss do you think you’re going to be?

Benji Dhillon: I’m actually really looking forward to that. I think I’ll be fair. I want to be fair. I want to be inspiring and I want to help people achieve their goals in work and outside of work. One of the nicest things I’ve heard within my industry is a clinic owner whoever comes in, whoever she takes on, one of the first things she asks is what is it you would like to achieve outside of work? A girl came in and said, “I want to buy my own house.” She goes okay we’re going to work towards that, I’m going to help you. And she did, she helped to achieve her dream by helping her structure things financially. That’s the kind of direction I want to go in.

Payman: Firm boss?

Benji Dhillon: When it’s needed. Yeah I think coming back to that patient experience, if there’s any compromise on the quality of delivery of anything to do with the clinic, I think that’s when I’ll be firm.

Payman: About this, me and Prav we’re talking about the differences between the way he runs his people and the way I run my people and I think actually when I really come down to it, I’m probably better employee than I am as a boss.

Prav Solanki: I agree. It’s like stepping into a community centre.

Payman: As an employee no it’s kind of having someone to report to. By the way, I love being my own boss. But having someone to report to, having external, someone checking up on me is actually good for me. And I’m very close with my team but at the same time when you’re very close with your team it’s hard to tell them off. And we’re talking about hiring and firing, very difficult thing. But it’s interesting because it’s very different working with people when you’re all working for someone else and you think you’re great even though it might be your nurse. And at the same time you’re not the boss and actually being their boss.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah I could totally see that. It’s stepping into new water for me. I’m fully aware how I like to think about it in my head is I do want to be a bit like you, I want to friendly and inspiring form for my employees. I think the one thing I want to be is.

Prav Solanki: Sorry I just have to laugh there when you said inspiring.

Benji Dhillon: So inspiring.

Prav Solanki: I came here from Manchester this morning. I was at Haymen’s office before he was. He lives 20 minutes away.

Payman: But I went to bed before you woke up. Just before.

Benji Dhillon: Well I tell you what I walked in and saw the tennis table, that’s great stuff to have for your employees right? But I guess both of you have got your own businesses. I see there’s fledgling businesses as another child. I think when anyone messes with that I think that really bug the hell out of me and I’ll protect that little child as much as I can.

Payman: But you know how your kid does something silly and you start making excuses for your kid.

Benji Dhillon: See I don’t do that.

Payman: It’s that friend. You end up making excuses for your business as well.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah that’s true.

Payman: I catch myself doing it all the time. Have you got a longer term plan than this one clinic are you thinking lots of them? Or are you not.

Benji Dhillon: No no that’s the ambition, I’d love to you know if the brand works, if the patient journey works, yeah I’d love to take this to other sites 100%, that would be the dream but I want to make the first one work.

Prav Solanki: If your 20 year old self knowing what you know today.

Benji Dhillon: I’ll be honest, I would go back to 18, I’d go study dentistry.

Prav Solanki: Seriously?

Benji Dhillon: Yeah yeah. Honestly speaking.

Prav Solanki: Why?

Benji Dhillon: I would go back and do dentistry, not because I think there’s anything wrong with my career but I think dentistry rather than medicine allows a fusion between clinical work and being an entrepreneur a lot more than medicine does. And it’s actually getting into what I’m doing now that I’m really enjoying the business side of it. It really, it gets me excited. I love the clinical side, that’s my passion but it’s adding this extra element. And I wish I could have done that years ago. And I think dentists have that exposure.

Payman: Earlier on.

Benji Dhillon: Earlier on. And actually some of the stuff dentists can do, it’s incredible. It’s life changing as well. It could have been I would have become dual trained but yeah I would have probably considered dentistry more than I did. For me, dentists were, I hate to admit this, but dentists were failed medics when I was that age. But actually…yeah typical medic right? But actually dentists have an incredible career.

Prav Solanki: The anatomy class of the neck.

Benji Dhillon: That led to it’s own problems.

Payman: I really didn’t expect you to say that. But how about your brand as a cosmetic doctor. Do you play on the doctor?

Benji Dhillon: Yeah yeah absolutely. Being doctor-led with my background and experience, absolutely make a play on that. It’s years of experience, knowledge within the field that is important to the field that is important to the patient at the end of the day.

Payman: By the way are you handling their marketing? So we’ll see how quickly how patients come. Obviously you’ve got all of the best working on your marketing. But at the beginning, this is one bit of advice I’d give you for first time you go into business, the first year expect complete carnage, expect to lose all the money. If you don’t great.

Benji Dhillon: I can imagine.

Prav Solanki: It’s a bonus right?

Benji Dhillon: Yeah I’m well prepared.

Payman: Carnage. In fact first two three years. One of my friends he started a nuclear power station.

Benji Dhillon: Okay so he hasn’t gone small either.

Payman: No big player but he told me it’s going to take four years before that thing works. And in medicine sometimes we expect things to work straight away. And it’s not just that you’ve got to take a lot, some people don’t. But it takes a few years before you get into the rhythm of what you’re actually, your actual USP and that actual community. And when you find the right person. Now you’ve got craft and carry, patients will be coming in day one but expect it.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah no absolutely.

Prav Solanki: The thing is with business my biggest struggle is people right. Always right. So you may find this superstar employee and then for some reason they relocate.

Payman: My buddy with the nuclear power station, I said, “How the hell do you go about opening a nuclear power station?” And he said, “Believe me nowhere near as hard as if I had lots of employees.” And apparently it doesn’t take many employees.

Benji Dhillon: It’s all computers and automated.

Payman: Machines yeah. People are the hardest.

Benji Dhillon: Mom and dad had their own business years ago.

Payman: What did they do?

Benji Dhillon: They ran nursing homes, nursing and rest homes. And one thing that kept them up at night was people. And it’s sort of like saying someone leaves who’s amazing and all of a sudden you’ve got a massive hole.

Prav Solanki: Benji it’s your last day on this planet, and you can’t take anything with you and you’re going to leave behind one thing which is a note, and what do you want people to remember you by in that note? Benji was…

Benji Dhillon: That’s a good question. You love these difficult questions don’t you? That really revolve, reveal a person’s character. What would I leave?

Prav Solanki: How would you like somebody to remember you?

Benji Dhillon: I think first and foremost as a family man. Benji loved his family, his best.

Prav Solanki: Love that.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah they’re the two things that I would like to stand for.

Payman: Desert island type questions. So house on fire, you’ve saved your family, what’s the one thing you pick up on your way out?

Benji Dhillon: That’s a really good questions as well, things I’ve never considered. The one thing I’d take from home.

Prav Solanki: Olympus sweatshirt of course.

Benji Dhillon: No I never got that. My god that’s a really good question. I’d probably take kill us, I mean contrary to what we said earlier, I’d probably take my phone. It’s got all pictures of all my family on it. Memories. Because we don’t have photo albums anymore do we?

Payman: Of course we don’t.

Benji Dhillon: It can’t be the memories.

Payman: You’re not on the Cloud then?

Benji Dhillon: Some of it is on the Cloud yeah. It’s the memories right which you can’t replace. One thing I’d take.

Payman: Totally. Been lovely having you.

Prav Solanki: Been a pleasure.

Benji Dhillon: It’s been fun, been a lot of fun.

Payman: It really has and meeting you today for the first time today for me it’s been a real pleasure.

Benji Dhillon: Thanks for having me.

Prav Solanki: Appreciate it.

Payman: Thanks so much for coming.

Benji Dhillon: Thanks for difficult questions. Cheers.

Payman: Big big big luck with the project. What’s it going to be called by the way?

Benji Dhillon: Define.

Payman: Oh nice.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah Define.

Payman: I was going to call a product define.

Benji Dhillon: Oh were you?

Payman: Five years ago. I’ve got a really nice logo for it if you want.

Benji Dhillon: Oh really I might need it.

Prav Solanki: [crosstalk]

Payman: Excellent. Prav’s just taking a selfie.

Benji Dhillon: Yeah he’s going to edit us out.

Payman: Thanks.

Benji Dhillon: No lovely cheers.

Speaker 4: This is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Paymon Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Transcript

Prav Solanki: Hey guys, and welcome to today’s episode of the Dental Leaders Podcast. Today we had the pleasure of interviewing Mahrukh Khwaja, who’s the founder of Empowering Women in Dentistry group and has started a movement herself. What an inspiring character. Somebody who I’ve been following certainly, on social media, that popped up from nowhere. I think this group has given a lot of people confidence, courage and just brought certain mental health issues to the front. Certainly her own personal journey that she shared with us. It was very emotional and very heartfelt interview, I felt.

Payman: Well you could tell from her, the vocabulary she had around mental wellness and I think it’s one of those areas that, give it another 10 years. Everyone’s going to understand. I think without having gone through what she’s gone through herself, she’s very very, up-on, exactly what to look out for and what to do. The same time. There’s a lot more to Empowering Women in Dentistry than that but it seemed to me that that was her real area of passion. Really lovely, lovely interview. You can enjoy it.

Prav Solanki: Enjoy.

Mahrukh Khwaja: There are certainly challenges, I can appreciate that. But it’s also really exciting-

Payman: Of course.

Mahrukh Khwaja: As well that, something new can come and we can have different conversations in dentistry. And also I’m helping to create a seat at the table where I feel like perhaps we’re not always given that seat?

Speaker 4: This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry, your host, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman: It’s really good to have Mahrukh in the studio. I’ve been looking forward to talking to you. I remember one of the first few times we met and it was soon after the Minimalist conference and then also before, it’s before the Minimalist conference and you said to me, why aren’t there more women speakers at the conference?

Payman: And I thought about it and we had Sanely McCrone and she was, from my point of view, probably the best speaker, the most useful content that we had on that day. But at the time I didn’t appreciate the question. I felt why should there be more women on? Until I kind of turned it around and I thought, well, what would I have felt, if there was eight women and one man? I would probably have wanted more men. This question of Empowering Women in Dentistry, which is your whole thing, your group and so on. Where did it start and tell us some of the history about it.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Empowering Women in Dentistry really started from a feeling of frustration that women weren’t being equally represented in all spans of industry. When I was looking at this in a party setting where there are lots of principles out, that they were female or even at a conference setting, academia research. And I got to a point in my dentistry, I was in a bit of a rant and I was looking to upscale but finding a real lack of mentorship, a feeling of disconnection from other women and feeling quite isolated, being in practise and just really wanting to connect more with positive, uplifting women. That’s where the concept started.

Payman: But what do you think is the reason why there aren’t more women role models? Do you think that they’ve been, held back or do you think that there’s something about women that doesn’t put themselves forward or is it about having children? What is it? Is it all of those things?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think that’s a really complex and interesting question. There’s lots of different strands and they’re definitely all inter-play. I think for me the biggest aspect is looking at fear, fear of failure, fear that women might have, of speaking up and having a voice. Are they going to be ridiculed, criticised? Definitely, are they putting themselves forward, perhaps not so much? Why is that, looking at the psychology behind that?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Definitely being mother does impact your dentistry, especially if you’re not supported. If your principal, for example, isn’t allowing for flexible working patterns, etc, that would impact things as well. I think it’s definitely complex. I feel like, there potentially could be a man’s club as well, where men in high visibility roles may not be giving the equal opportunities to women.

Mahrukh Khwaja: But having said that, women can step forward and create that seat at the table. I’d love to see that more.

Payman: And you’ve been interviewing successful women dentists yourself. Is there something about them that more masculine or is there something about them that’s a thread that you’ve seen going through those women, are they the type that don’t care what people think about them or-

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yes, it’s been a really interesting journey talking to women and there’s lots of different things I’ve kind of gained from that. Comments read I found was actually, they’ve all experienced a difficult scenario. They’ve all been bullied or harassed at work, which was really surprising to me.

Payman: All of the ones you spoken to?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Pretty much all of them.

Payman: Even the super successful ones?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yes, definitely. I thought that perhaps there is a face to someone who might be harassed, but no, actually it’s successful, really driven women, have experienced some difficult situations but have flipped it around and have looked at self-growth and used that situation and really grown from it. I think that’s been the most surprising element actually, coming out of the interviews.

Prav Solanki: Have you come across any sort of female speakers, lecturers, mentors in dentistry, who’ve made it that haven’t had to sort of turn that negative energy around or being harassed or bullied and just made it positive on their own two feet from the ground up?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah, definitely. I have come across a few women like that as well. That have had generally quite positive experiences. But I would say that’s the minority actually, majority have experienced some difficulty and it doesn’t necessarily have to be in the workplace. It might be in a relationship or just generally in life. And they’ve kind of come from their own rock bottom and they’ve wanted to change things around.

Payman: Isn’t that a human thing. I mean-

Mahrukh Khwaja: Definitely.

Payman: Do you think… forget the industry, do you think it’s harder to be a woman in society than being a man in today’s society?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I would say so-

Payman: I’m not sure, I mean I’m not sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think it can be because women have the expectations to do well in their career, but also to be great mother, to be great wife. It’s all these hats that they’re juggling and there’s more pressure to be blessed in all of these areas. Not to say that men don’t experience this, at sometimes it feels like we’re being sold a dream that is very hard to achieve. Something has to give…

Prav Solanki: I kind of hear where you’re coming from because you know, if I look at myself, I’m the guy, I go out to work. I’ve got four kids at home and my wife is a full time mom and she runs a little business on the side as well, right? Well she can only fit that in around looking after the kids, doing the very best for them and everything has to be perfect. Every meal on the table, every kid’s club, everything has to be spot on the kids are a priority. Her career can’t be.

Prav Solanki: Then I come home after a really easy day at work and all the kids want to do is hug me and I play super dad and in some respects I see that from her perspective and a feel or it’s not fair because I’m the guy who goes out and I can live my dream, do what I want to do, I come home, I get the best of the kids and she gets to deal with a screaming winging kids during the day and I blackballed Paula glories. Did you sort of that, those similarities-

Mahrukh Khwaja: Definitely-

Prav Solanki: In other walks of like in business as well as just sort of what I’ve described as my sort of home life relationship with my wife? Do you see any sort of parallels in the workplace?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Definitely. I would agree with that there’s so many pressures that we mean are putting on themselves, historically we would focus on the motherhood role and why for now, more than ever, we’re focusing on career and all the different avenues in life, we want to be the best and it’s… we are doing a juggling act.

Prav Solanki: What’s your solution if there is one to readdressing that balance so that there is that equality or if you were to give some advice to, say my wife, how can she manage and juggle all of that? Perhaps give advice to me. I don’t know who you think you should give advice out to. I’d love to hear your thoughts on that.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think it’s really important to focus on self-care and it’s one of the areas that we just don’t invest in. I’d really look at person development, making time for yourself, that you can then really explore the other avenues in your life. That’s been the biggest hurdle that I’ve kind of come through.

Prav Solanki: Go back to the… I’m going to keep relating this back to my own life ’cause it’s a good way of me understanding things. You talked about making time for yourself and my wife would argue, I’ve got four kids, I’ve not got time, I’m cooking so many meals a day. I’m feeding the kids, I’m taxing the kids around. What would you like in that? And I’m sure there’s loads of all the women out there in the same situation as my wife who said, you know what? I’d love to go back and maybe study. She may do that later on in life. I’ll get more time to work on her own business, which she does in the evening when I’m tucked up in bed, believe it or not and just like, what would you advise in that situation of just sort of addressing that balance? She said find more time or give time to yourself, a personal development. What would your solution be to that?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think it’s actually just looking back to how do you reclaim your health? How do you feel happier every day? It’s a very simple little things. It’s not necessarily, going away on holiday. It’s incorporating these small practises daily and that makes a difference. What I notice, really helped me was every morning having a daily practise and setting aside by 10 minutes, it can even be as small as five minutes, start small and then work on that. It doesn’t need to be hours. And actually we do have time, we just prioritise it in different ways.

Payman: Sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: That five minutes to spend on mindfulness, to spend on meditation, take a couple of… even two minutes, use an app. It doesn’t need to be complicated and you’ll find that you feel much more rested, much more karma and you’ll be able to take on tasks that you feel like you can’t normally-

Payman: Did you find yourself in a position of overwhelm and had to implement some of this stuff and that’s why you want to now talk about it. Is that what happened?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah, definitely. I would say it’s a journey really. My first couple of experiences straight out of VET were really negative. I was working in toxic environments-

Payman: What does that mean, go on, expand on that.

Mahrukh Khwaja: The first couple of principles I had really focused on teaching in a shaming way. They’d come and they’d watch my crown preps for example, and then they criticise the crown prep in front of a patient. They take photos of my web but not just mine, the whole team. And then they’d be criticising those things in front of us. I went into work feeling very panicked, feeling very uncomfortable and already not really knowing my place when I’d come out of dental school.

Mahrukh Khwaja: And really, you want your-

Payman: You are vulnerable at that point anyway.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Exactly.

Payman: That’s the thing. It’s sort of who you are.

Mahrukh Khwaja: You’re not quite sure where you fit in. What can you give to your patients, you are not quite sure yet, cause you don’t have that experience. It was really negative. I’ve called it bullying and harassment. That’s how I would label it now but at that time, actually I normalised it, they’re trying to help me. But… and maybe this is normal. This is how people are taught. I-

Payman: It’s not dental school that, that’s way too, isn’t it?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think, yeah. To element, I think. 2010 from King’s.

Payman: Right, something different to when I qualify… I remember in vet school that being a away from teaching, from some of the teachers anyway, I can think of.

Prav Solanki: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Payman: Do you think, the bullying directed to you in particular, is it because you’re a woman and were there any other sort of male VTs at the time or associates that were treated any differently? Did you feel like you were singled out at all?

Mahrukh Khwaja: In my experience, I’ve personally… there were a few other men there, but they were senior, so the conversations were different-

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: With them. I think in part, perhaps me being female and younger-

Payman: Sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Meant that the principle could, or felt that it allows you to speak in a certain way. But I think it goes to show… it really reflects the principle kind of attitude and his own psychology. There’s someone who wants to be little, who wants to tear someone down. Probably has been torn down as well. And he’s got an interesting psychology as well. That was my first few experiences of coming out to dental school-

Payman: Say, at the time you didn’t recognise it for that?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I didn’t recognise it. And actually I stayed in that position for about six months. This is after VET and looking back at now, I wouldn’t, but I felt that I had a job and I felt, I wasn’t really sure if there was much else out there. Like I said, I normalise a lot of this toxic behaviour. Then I went from that to a marriage as well that was psychologically abusive. I came out of that, just feeling, not, well, really feeling lost, not really knowing who I was

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Mahrukh Khwaja: And really looking inwards to find ways of progressing and to become a more calm, peaceful person, to reclaim that, that feel like I lost.

Prav Solanki: Just to sort of touch on your marriage and you just qualified in 2010, just got to get the chronology right. 2010, is that right?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yes.

Prav Solanki: Did your VT and then you got married-

Mahrukh Khwaja: In 2013.

Prav Solanki: 2013, did your husband at the time, had you, was it a long term relationship, that was throughout university, or? Just talk us through how you met and the courting and all the rest of it, just to-

Mahrukh Khwaja: I know-

Prav Solanki: Paint the picture out there, because there is a lot of people out there, maybe some that are listening, who’ve been in either abusive relationships, physical, mental, whatever that may be. It’d be good just to get an understanding of the background of that if you don’t mind.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Of course. I met my partner in 2009 in dental school. He was training to become a physiotherapist. I met him at campus and we had a great time getting to know each other. I would say the relationship was really quite positive, in the early years and we decided to get married after a couple of years and-

Prav Solanki: Just talk me through the proposal.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Well, actually, I didn’t go… it wasn’t a western proposal, it wasn’t like that. It was more actually a conversation. Not very romantic-

Payman: But Prav’s a real romantic, you see he is.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I’m actually a romantic as well but no, it was just a conversation and we decided that it would be great to take it further into the next step.

Prav Solanki: Commit to each other.

Mahrukh Khwaja: To commit to each other and I knew a lot about his childhood and the difficulties he’d experienced-

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: I got to know him very well. We decided to take that step forward.

Payman: When did the honeymoon period end and what were the first signs that you get from that happy situation to what you call, abusive.

Mahrukh Khwaja: It’s really different living with someone than courting someone.

Payman: Sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: A person can convey a sad image for a few hours, but when you get to know them day in, day out, it changes very quickly. I would say very early on the marriage in the marriage-

Payman: Hadn’t you not lived together at all before you got married?

Mahrukh Khwaja: We hadn’t lived… no.

Payman: That’s an error isn’t it?

Mahrukh Khwaja: (Laughs) I mean, culturally that wouldn’t… that’s not accepted-

Prav Solanki: What are your thoughts on that?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think it’s… I can understand why-

Prav Solanki: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: Why it’s not celebrated to live with the partners.

Prav Solanki: Sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I can see it from that perspective, but then I can see I’m British-Pakistani, I can see the advantages of living with your partner. I can see at both angles.

Payman: Would you do it again?

Mahrukh Khwaja: To be married without living?

Payman: Yeah, Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think I’d be comfortable with that concept.

Payman: Really?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah. I think I would, actually.

Payman: Now you’re a better judge of character than you were back then or what?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yes, I think so. I think I can pick up on the red flags a lot better. Plus I understand myself a lot better as well-

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: I wouldn’t necessarily feel like I have to live with my partner.

Prav Solanki: I struggle with this concept, simply because I put this, this is my personal belief, that you don’t really get to know a person until you’ve lived with them.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, what there is though-

Payman: Hell yeah.

Prav Solanki: It’s disgusting little habits they’ve got or the annoying little things. And even then during the honeymoon period, you don’t quite figure it out. You’ve had kids-

Payman: (laughs)

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah, (laughs).

Payman: And then they get in the way and that’s when the true person comes out, on both ends.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah.

Payman: I just find the whole concept of not being able to live and I come from a very-

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yes-

Prav Solanki: Traditional family background, where that’s frowned upon completely.

Payman: Did you and Bobby live together?

Prav Solanki: Yeah, of course.

Payman: How long?

Prav Solanki: A year? There abouts.

Mahrukh Khwaja: (laughs).

Prav Solanki: But the thing – and you know – I came from a very – and I hope my father in law’s not listening but-

Prav Solanki: (Laughing) I remember going to that house when we were courting and I put my hand on her shoulder like this. Two minutes later her dad drafted me off into his bedroom-

Payman: Bloody hell-

Prav Solanki: And he said, listen son, this touchy, touchy-

Mahrukh Khwaja: (Laughs)

Prav Solanki: No go on in my house, not until you’re married.

Mahrukh Khwaja: (laughs)

Prav Solanki: (Laughs) And I thought, wow. And that’s how strict and I’m thinking, it was, I couldn’t… my kids. I’d encourage it.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Because I’d rather they made the mistake at that point then… and do you, having made that mistake, do you still feel that you’d be able to…

Mahrukh Khwaja: I don’t know – I completely understand where you’re coming from-

Prav Solanki: Sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: You’ve got lots of valid points, I can understand that, but I don’t know if it is because I didn’t live with him. It was actually more, for me, that I hadn’t picked up on the red flags-

Payman: Sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I hadn’t… that I was perhaps looking for something quite different in a partner and hadn’t really thought about what I needed in a partnership.

Payman: And by the way, plenty of marriages fail where you have lived with people-

Prav Solanki: Of course.

Payman: That is brilliant. Of course.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Exactly.

Prav Solanki: Of course.

Payman: That’s for sure. Then when did it start feeling that? What were the signs? What were the red flags?

Mahrukh Khwaja: The red flags were, that he had a history of mental health and hadn’t managed it, I mean, at all. My partner had… well he told me he had previously had bulimia and he also had depression and OCD. All these mental health conditions that he hadn’t focused on. That was a big red flag actually came from a background of abuse as well. His dad had hit him, there was physical abuse, potentially sexual abuse as well. I had actually completed a year of psychology, I did an in calculated-

Payman: Ah, ok.

Mahrukh Khwaja: PSE in psychology. I thought I understood these really well, what I hadn’t understood was all the distortion that comes with mental health, disorders. The thinking is sort of very different and I hadn’t appreciate that at all. That was a big red flag and the immaturity as well. Someone who didn’t have, wasn’t as mature as he could be, coming to being married you’d expect a level of maturity switch, he lacked. That was a big red flag as well.

Prav Solanki: What do you mean by lack of maturity? I mean, I always get pulled off, prating around all the time. It’s easy, in relation to sort of maturity towards sort of the relationship itself or?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yes, more with the relationship, really being able to empathise with your partner more, to not get defensive even during arguments to try and understand your partner’s perspective-

Prav Solanki: Work as a team?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Exactly. Work as a team. I think that’s really important. There was quite a few flags that I didn’t… I saw it would work out and we could get through this. It was actually… he decided that he wanted out. It wasn’t-

Payman: He initiated that?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah, he kept threatening me throughout the marriage, with divorce and it didn’t actually come from me.

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And how did you feel? First your boss, not comfortable then the marriage, not comfortable, how did you feel about that, was that your lowest time?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah, I would say that was my rock bottom. It was a big change in my life. Going from really feeling like I’d set up my whole life. I knew where my life was going for that to be crashing down. I really felt it and I didn’t feel prepared going forward. I felt very lost and I feel like that’s very relatable actually. We all go through periods of loss and that’s what I was experiencing. I was going through grief and this cycle and not really knowing how to navigate it. I experienced, I would say like a roller coaster of emotions.

Prav Solanki: Mm-hmm (affirmative). What were the steps at the point where he, he said to you that you wanted to get divorced or whatever, and this time after all those threats, it was serious, I guess or you sort of took it more seriously?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I took it more seriously, but coming to think of it and analysing it more-

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: It was probably another threat. It was a threat that if you don’t actually change your behaviour, because look all of the problems are because of you and also I felt like that was the case. I felt like, well I’m not doing enough.

Prav Solanki: You normalised it.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I normalised a lot of the psychological abuse. I felt like it really was me at fault here. It was a threat that he made and I took it seriously and it just propelled. And then it happened. We did actually push forward with the divorce, but I’m so glad to be out of that situation. It was such a big heading point, a big shakeup for me. I’m so glad that I had that experience. I’ve learned so much from it and he’s certainly not a bad person. Just someone who hasn’t explored their mental health-

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: It’s just really impacted our relationship-

Payman: You still in touch?

Mahrukh Khwaja: No, I’m not in touch, now.

Prav Solanki: What was your biggest worry when you decided that you were going to take that threat? Seriously? What is life like on my own? Was it, what am I parents going to think or what were the things going and I just want to understand from a cultural background what are the issues that come to light when that becomes a reality.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Luckily or fortunately I would say, that I didn’t come from a place where my… I wasn’t under pressure from my family to stay in the marriage that was difficult. I’d been brought up to really work hard with all of my relationships. Naturally, I come from a place of compromise all the time. But there wasn’t that pressure at all that I needed to stick at something-

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: Just because we decided to get married, I’m really lucky in that respect. I know there are other women out there that feel the pressure, but I certainly didn’t experience that at all. I’m really grateful for that, what I experienced really, was a loss of identity, finding out who am I now out of this marriage and where do I go from from here?

Mahrukh Khwaja: How do I put my trust in people again? That was a big one, it felt like a massive loss of the dreams and hopes I had. It was… I’m working out how to accept that, that was over. It’s not straight forward and I didn’t appreciate that either. I had lots of expectations of where I wanted to be straight after the divorce and you really need to give yourself time and be very compassionate and kind to yourself, because it does take time to heal. I was very, very fortunate actually to be in a position where I felt it was okay to seek help. Not just from my family and friends, but also with a therapist. I think that was a big turning point

Prav Solanki: And in this situation, if you were to advise someone else out there in exactly the same situation, you were brave enough to reach out to a therapist, someone else might look at that as, I can’t do that or whatever, or I don’t want to talk to a complete stranger about my problems, right? Just talk us through what advice you’d give someone else found in the same situation that you found yourself in lost dreams, shattered, everything, what golden nuggets could you give to someone in the same situation that you were once?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I mean, I can understand why there’d anxiety about approaching therapy and really putting yourself out there and talking about very vulnerable topics, but it’s not as scary as you think. I think that’s the first thing I’d say. Just go and explore that option, there’s no stigma attached to this. There’s no shame attached to that. It’s going and speaking to an expert on the mind, it’s someone to help you and they will help you grow and help you work through the difficulty you’re in, I would really encourage people to go and try it and it could work for you. I think talking therapy works for most people. I would say.

Payman: Because there was a stigma attached to it and that’s why people are so worried about it, but it’s changed so much, hasn’t? In the last four years even though?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think definitely yes-

Payman: People are openly talking-

Mahrukh Khwaja: There’s a lot more openness around therapy now and I’d love to see more of that. It’d be great to talk openly more about the joys of going to a therapist and working on yourself. That’s the best, that’s where you need to invest your, your time and effort and money-

Prav Solanki: I work with a lot clients to make them or position them in front of their patients so that people find them or position them to be a type of dentist that patients want to come to. How do you find the right therapist for you and how did you go about finding the right therapist for yourself?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think what I did was I used Google and I had an idea of who might be a great therapist, but actually you don’t really know until you go out there and approach people.

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: For me I felt, I needed to be a woman and I’d love it if she was from an ethnic minority as well and maybe should understand some of the cultural aspects, nuances. That was the kind of person I was looking for-

Payman: Interesting.

Mahrukh Khwaja: But Luckily, it was one of the first people I touched base with. I had a phone conversation with her and I felt, it went really well. I felt a connection, I felt really drawn to her and we agreed to have our first session just to talk about what I wanted to gain out to therapy and I met with her and it just truly changed my trajectory and really really such a blessing to have met her. It just went really, really well.

Payman: From the first session?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah, I gained so much from that first meeting.

Payman: Really? Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: It was amazing.

Payman: How many meetings did you end up having? Would you still see her?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I see her now and again, if there’s any difficulty I’m going through or something I just want to explore with her. Initially I had probably about three months of therapy during the divorce and that was centred on accepting, the divorce was happening and how to move forward and it was really grief therapy, that’s when you’re going through that, you know the stages of grief.

Prav Solanki: And how often is that therapy, it’s over three months now. How often did you see your therapist?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Weekly? Every week-

Payman: On the couch, the way you-

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah, on a couch. It’s, it’s lovely. You’re in a really nice room, she has lavender kind of a vaporizer there, it smells really nice. She offers you tea, you’re having a really nice conversation with someone and you’re touching on really difficult aspects as well, but it’s someone that wants to see you push forward. It’s really a positive experience, but it needn’t be as scary as you, you think is, it’s just really a conversation you’re having when… and you’re getting some tools to help you push forward.

Prav Solanki: How different is that, to getting support from your best mate?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I mean, support from your best mate is always amazing, definitely, but it’s someone who… with a therapist, she doesn’t know you. It’s coming from a different angle. It’s very objective and you’ll be able to take the advice in a different way.

Payman: Sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Plus, a therapist has training in psychology, so can really understand your problems in a different way and for me actually, I learned probably best through understanding and understanding psychology behind things. It was really focused on understanding the psychology behind my husband and why he behaved in a certain way and what was his trauma? What was his-

Prav Solanki: Sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Problems, the shame that he experienced and how that impacted us and that was life changing.

Prav Solanki: I guess, they’ve been there and seen it so many times that they’re more qualified to just offer you that advice, right?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah and one awesome thing as well was learning more about the kind of resources that are available, such as Ted talks. That was the first time I read, I’d really delved into Ted and the youtube kind of videos and podcasts that are out there and I came across just really interesting authors. It was a period of growth for me. I was learning much more about the human mind and then very, very exciting time.

Prav Solanki: You came from absolutely nowhere as far as I’m concerned. You were nowhere on my radar for sure. Then all of a sudden this person appeared on social media and started sharing ideas, information, positivity through what seemed to start off with a few little Facebook posts, videos, images, to now sort of spreading the word and the message. Is that sort of your way of giving back or what what are you sort of aiming to achieve from that?

Mahrukh Khwaja: The purpose of the group is to really showcase positive female role models. I guess that and also creating a mentally supported profession. That all really comes from my journey and my passion for mental health. A lot of the positive posts I have are centred on wellness are really coming from or I’ve experienced and I’d love to kind of push forward with that message of self care. I feel like in our profession, mental wellness is not always really focused on and I feel like burnout and stress is a common issue amongst dentists currently.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Whenever I connect with other dentists, they will tell me about their story and stress and burnout and long hours and rumination over patient complaints, is a common one that I’m hearing. If there was a way to support our profession-

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: I’d love to really focus on that.

Payman: Do you feel like because you’d been through the process of getting better from your story, that you had with your life, do you feel like you’re better equipped to handle clinical problems, now, is it the same set of sort of tools, that you used to get yourself out of… if everybody should complain, would you use something similar?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yes, definitely. I feel like it’s massively helped me to deal with stress and rumination. It’s a big one and actually without this toolkit I would be struggling a lot more. I wouldn’t be able to recognise, first of all, when I was stressed, and when I was feeling the burnout to prevent it progressing-

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: Definitely just really learning about what tools, what coping mechanisms do I have, feel less stressed to manage my mental wellness. It’s made a massive impact-

Payman: Why don’t you give us an example, because there’s so many people, as you said, going through stress. I read that mental dental group with… it’s my favourite group on Facebook, say someone’s got a GDC complaint right now and they also hate their job and their husband isn’t responsive, but presence in the relationship, let’s talk about, of course there are personal things that are going to be right for you as a person and other general tools and let’s have an example, if it’s one out there, how can they click their mind into a positive mindset? First of all, I guess, you’re going to tell me, recognise that they’ve got a problem and… walk us through a few things.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think when I’m going through a stressful situation, whatever that might be. Definitely first of all is recognising and owning up to yourself that there is something going on. That’s a big step, first of all. And that doesn’t mean you’re a failure. It’s just a very human experience. We all go through these periods of first of all, recognising it, and then just really looking at your coping mechanisms. What can you do that will help you really feel a lot safer and calmer and more connected.

Mahrukh Khwaja: That really varies for everyone, for me that is gratitude practise, daily. I do this just before I go to bed. I’ll think of all the things I’m grateful for, but we feel those things. You feel that sense of connection. For me also positive affirmations have been really helpful-

Payman: What does that mean?

Mahrukh Khwaja: These are positive statements that you make and they’re statements that you repeat and can really help ground you. It might be as simple as ‘I’m safe. I’m loved’. I did this a lot during the divorce because I felt completely unloved. I mean I have family that loved me but-

Payman: Sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I did not feel safe. I felt the world was changing around me.

Payman: Do you literally say that statement several times, that makes you feel better?

Mahrukh Khwaja: During moments of a panic attack where I found it really useful to say those statements and… definitely. There so many. It could be focused on I am loving and I’m connected, I’m safe. I am going to have a happy day. My patients are grateful for the work I do. It can be a very incredible statement. You can take it anywhere, which is awesome.

Prav Solanki: Just out of curiosity, you talked earlier on about your morning routine and having a set routine. I’ve got my own, I’m really, really interested to hear about what your morning routine is to settle positivity for the day and then what happens at the end of the day, even if you’ve had a shit day?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yes. (Laughs).

Prav Solanki: Talk me through what happens at the end and how you deal with that.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I like to wake up and not go straight to my social media because-

Payman: What time do you wake up?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I wake up normally half seven. I think it’s key not to go straight for the social media because there’s so many messages that we get through social media and some of them are very negative and you have to have a lot of awareness to work around those messages. The key is to not go straight for that-

Prav Solanki: Is your phone always close by or do you deliberately put it somewhere else?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I mean, it’s in my room still.

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: But it’s not that far away, but it’s actually a conscious decision-

Payman: True.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Not to focus on it. That’s a key one. I then, obviously I brush my teeth and get ready but in a mindful way. Incorporating all the benefits of mindfulness, the sense of feeling present and I bring that to brushing teeth or having a shower. Really being present and grounded and that’s, you get such a sense of calm of just that.

Prav Solanki: Just describe to the listeners out there who think that mindfulness is a load of hocus pocus-

Mahrukh Khwaja: (Laughs).

Prav Solanki: Or more importantly, just don’t understand the meaning behind it, because if you’d have asked me about mindfulness two years ago, I just thought it was some smoke and mirrors.I wouldn’t have got it, explained to me.

Mahrukh Khwaja: You know the sense of calm you get when you go on holiday and you are fully aware of all the different senses. You’re just hyper tuned to the colours, the birds, the trees, the textures, the smells, and you just feel really alive. That’s the feeling of mindfulness and it’s not a feeling that we should just wait, you know, once a year, we should try and incorporate that daily.

Mahrukh Khwaja: It’s working out the best way of doing that. It doesn’t necessarily mean having to necessarily, be in these beautiful places. For me, mindfulness is a journey and it was a lot easier when I first started to be outside in nature and I felt the benefits of it more than it was easier to access because you can really kind of look at all the different senses and I still have a big attachment to nature. I really feel the healing quality of it just being around trees and animals.

Mahrukh Khwaja: You felt this big sense of something bigger than your problems but that’s the concept of mindfulness, but bringing it back to daily practise-

Payman: Sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Is a lot harder and it’s, it’s something that I’ve had to work on, but you can definitely do it in the little mundane tasks that you’re doing every day when you’re on autopilot and you can really… as I was mentioning, feel the sense of calm, by focusing on all the different senses.

Mahrukh Khwaja: When you’re in the shower instead of ruminating and thinking about all the things you’re going to do that day and your mind is very busy in that, just giving it a chance to be relaxed and quieter by really honing into the sensations of having a shower, the warmth of the water, the sensation of the soap, etc. It’s such a powerful, easy way of feeling more connected and happier.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I would say that I’d agree with you proud about being very sceptical about it.

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think if you don’t try it then, it’s very easy to dismiss it-

Prav Solanki: I agree, totally.

Mahrukh Khwaja: But it’s so powerful and actually doctors are recommending this in daily practise.

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: That’s how amazing it is and there’s so many studies out there to support it. Even if you look historically as well and you look at monks, they were practising all these mindful processes long, long, long time ago. There’s nothing new and gratitude isn’t anything new, positive affirmations, these are all things that-

Prav Solanki: Of course.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Come from a long history, but we’re kind of repackaging them in a different way.

Payman: Do you think that by equating those two things, since you agree about women and about mental health and by the way you can have a group about whatever you want but do you think that there’s a risk that you then equate those two things together in the minds of the audience, that women are always going to be stressed? Did you think about that or?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I actually hadn’t really thought about it until recently. My brother who’s also a dentist, he mentioned perhaps that there is a connection that people are going to make. For me it really was just focusing on what I’m passionate about and I hadn’t really read into it in a negative way.

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: I mean, stress and burnout is something that’s being experienced amongst both genders, not just women. It just happens that I have a women’s group and I love to talk about mental health.

Payman: Sure. I mean look, I like restaurants and I’m a dentist, I could start a restaurant dentistry, it doesn’t mean every dentist likes restaurants, right?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yes.

Payman: I get it. But because both of them are quite contentious kind of subjects, aren’t they, that’s the… What would you say to people who say we don’t need another woman’s group or we don’t need a woman’s group in dentistry? For my part, I will say that I think, it’s one of the best professions for women. My wife’s a dentist too. The idea that you can do part-time, is amazing. A lot of careers, if you did part time, you would really go backwards versus dentistry.

Payman: That’s not the case, the fact that patient trusts you is the key relationship. We know we don’t have to rely on bosses or, I mean you were just taught this about your bosses’ situation, but certainly we do. But the key relationship in dentistry, is the patient-dentist relationship-

Mahrukh Khwaja: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Payman: That’s fully controllable by the one person… What do you say about people to people who say there’s no need for this? We don’t need it.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I don’t think this group necessarily is for everyone and not everyone’s going to feel there is a need for it. I completely appreciate that. But coming from my perspective, my personal journey, I felt, I needed it, that I wanted to be connected with other women that were passionate and I wanted to see a profession rather than being centred on ego and competition, to foster kindness and lift each other up. I felt that was missing. It turns out that that message, people seem to be drawn to.

Payman: It seems to resonate with a lot of people?

Prav Solanki: Yeah, for sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: It seems to resonate with people.

Payman: For sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: But I appreciate, it’s not going to resonate with-

Payman: Everyone-

Mahrukh Khwaja: Everyone and that’s fine.

Prav Solanki: Fast forward now, you’ve talked to us about your daily routine, your positive affirmations, your mindfulness, all of which I’m a massive fan of. What’s your life like now, obviously if you’ve talked about, the doom and gloom of the past and how you’ve used therapy and stuff to get over it all, just fast forward with it now. Are you in a relationship now? Are you happier now? What’s your work, at the moment in terms of your dentistry and stuff like that? Just give us a snapshot of what your life is like today.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I’m a lot happier than I was a few years ago. I’m in a lot better mind space. I am in a relationship that’s really positive and it’s helping me grow. I’m very grateful for actually all of those clouds and made them into rainbows. I’m really, really grateful to have reframed that part of my life. I was in a lot before in my dentistry.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I was practising , NHS dentistry and felt like I was on a treadmill and just not really nourishing my excitement and passion and moving back to London and up-scaling and going on courses has really made me a lot more excited about being a dentist.

Mahrukh Khwaja: That’s been a big change for me. I’ve almost finished my postgraduate certificate in Aesthetic dentistry and I look forward to just using those skills to give more choices to my patients and really do a work that I feel is more meaningful. I would say that’s my snapshot.

Prav Solanki: Brilliant. Just moving on to dentistry, what type of dentistry do you really love doing? If you could pick your dream patient to walk through the door, as your next patient. What is your treatment modality or transformation, whatever, however you want to put it.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I love Orthodontics and just being on that journey with a patient over quite a few months, but making a massive difference to their self esteem. Personally, I really enjoy orthodontics, but I also love lots of other areas of cosmetic dentistry such as concept bonding, whitening. I think more importantly actually is just the connections that you make with patients and the rapport that you build. That’s key for me. Having that focus now, to build a relationship where I didn’t really do that with my NHS test industry.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think that’s been more exciting actually to really just learn about a patient-

Payman: People are… I’ve said this before, the thing I miss the most about being a proper dentist, is people, but interesting question and have you come across patients who you think need help psychologically and then you’ve put them on to that are you out looking out for that? Are you asking questions in the medical industry about mental health?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I always pick up on that. I have, there have been situations where I’ve had a patient and she’s come to me and she’s been really, really emotionally upset and really I spoke to her as my nurse did as well about her day and it transpired that, she had just recently been raped. That was there… There’s been lots of scenarios like that.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I’m always fascinated by people’s psychology and what’s going on in their life and I think that’s really important to do dentistry, to just look at the holistic kind of picture-

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: And ask questions. I did sign post her to the GP, she had been to the GP but felt that she’d been dismissed. It was nice to really actually talk.

Payman: Did you go to your GP when you had distress or that you’re not bother with that?

Mahrukh Khwaja: No. I went straight to a psychotherapist. For me, I felt it wouldn’t necessarily benefit me to go and seek a GP, wasn’t looking to be medicated. I wanted to focus on my thoughts.

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: That’s just kind of where I sit, but it’d be very different, you know, if I had different symptoms-

Payman: Sure.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Then I would definitely explore the GP route.

Payman: And men will come into the group?

Mahrukh Khwaja: If they share the same kind of values and passion, then-

Payman: (Laughs).

Mahrukh Khwaja: Sure, why not, but it is a women’s group.

Payman: Wait a minute, what is the group? What is it? Is it a forum? Is it a-

Mahrukh Khwaja: The group, it’s a women’s group, I have socials, where we meet up and we connect members.

Payman: How many members?

Mahrukh Khwaja: How many members in the groups? It’s interesting. It’s very difficult to-

Prav Solanki: Gauge.

Mahrukh Khwaja: To gauge because I have a social media platform. I’ve got quite a few members on the Facebook group-

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: I have Instagram as well then I have their socials as well. It’s hard to give you-

Prav Solanki: Roughly how many women dentists are you connecting with on a regular basis would you say or influencing?

Mahrukh Khwaja: There are about 420 members of the group on Facebook, but then on Instagram is over a thousand and I get lots of messages continuously-

Payman: Daily?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Definitely daily, wanting to connect. Some of them want to be interviewed, others wanting to-

Payman: Fantastic.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Share their journey and just kind of touch base about their mental health journey as well.

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: It’s pretty amazing, this journey over the past year-

Payman: You get time for it?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I’m really passionate about it, it’s not really-

Payman: It’s not a chore.

Mahrukh Khwaja: It doesn’t feel like it’s something I need to fit in. It’s something I enjoy, I’m not making any special time for. It’s something I’m passionate about, I don’t really feel it’s time consuming at all.

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative). When was it you went to that international conference for Women in the industry? Where was that?

Mahrukh Khwaja: That was in Benidorm around August time. The divas and dentistry convention-

Payman: They came from the US?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Yeah. Delia Turtle has a women’s group as well in America. It was her conference, her first women’s conference-

Payman: Benidorm for them is Cancun for us.(Laughs)

Prav Solanki: [crosstalk 00:55:41](Laughs)

Mahrukh Khwaja: (Laughs). But actually it really was an amazing experience because we had connected with all these global superstars and they were all kind of sharing their wisdom and wanting to lift each other up, which is such a beautiful thing to see in dentistry, especially where a lot of us are. I feel like the professional is centred on egos at time rather than compassion, kindness, lifting each other up-

Payman: Definitely.

Mahrukh Khwaja: It was a really good experience.

Payman: That’s the funny thing. I’m definitely guilty of it myself, by the way, but under the guise of, what’s right for the patient, we can really be aggressive to each other-

Mahrukh Khwaja: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Payman: Because, hey, we’re doing it for the patient and it’s just the perfect storm. It just sets everything up to be really aggressive to each other because if this guise at the patient, and sometimes, the question of kindness, someone says something or does something and it’s awful. The one that comes to mind is there was a lady dentist. Do you remember the story?

Payman: She went to Dubai and she went into an argument with the immigration officer and then they took it to jail. I think she sold her story to The Sun or something, but there were attacks on her. I mean, why was she…the idea that, hey she’s a fellow dentist who ended up in jail she… I think she got her camera out whatever she did, you know what to buy. It might be like and I don’t know that there’s much we can do about it, but what you’re doing is certainly something, I’m sure, are there any man?

Mahrukh Khwaja: No, there’re actually there’s quite a few men and I’ve had lots of men messaged me to say that they really support the cause and they’re really… they’re not coming from a defensive perspective. They’re, they feel like it can empower women, which is great to see. Shaw’s from Digi marks, also connected with me and he did the logo. It’s-

Payman: That’s amazing.

Mahrukh Khwaja: It’s really amazing. I’ve had a lot of support, actually from men, a lot of support. Even when I go into my said dentistry course and I talk to the other guys, they’re really supportive of it as well. I think on the whole it’s been about… it’s been received really well.

Payman: You’re doing the conference or you’re not sure? Where are you with this?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Definitely I want to do a conference this year. The goal is hopefully by the end of the year to, to launch it.

Payman: Tell me about your ideal conferences, women will be, all this will be because of women, obviously most of you are obviously women-

Mahrukh Khwaja: Not necessarily-

Payman: I’m not more worried about it. I’m more worried about it, but go on, what would they be saying and doing. Would they just be talking about dentistry or they will talk about their journey as a woman through dentistry?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I’d like to have some dental components as well, but yes, certainly that would be great for them to talk about the journey and be able to connect with the audience because a lot of them want to know how did they overcome their barriers.

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: I think that’s really key.

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: If you have an emotional story that, that’s the best way I feel, to connect with the audience. But a big part of the conference will be centred on wellness and that’s one of my key messages with the group.

Payman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mahrukh Khwaja: I’d love to see that, in a conference form. I’m yet to see it in the UK, I’d really love to make that vision come to life.

Payman: It’s amazing, doing a conferences is difficult and risky. Risky. That’s the key thing I would say to anyone who’s thinking of doing a conference. It’s a high risk. But how are you getting on from the sort of financial perspective for this group? Is it a charity funding thing by donations or is it, are people paying to be part of it or what’s the story? How’s it financed?

Mahrukh Khwaja: There’s no finance at the moment. It’s just me putting my message out there and seeing if it resonates. I don’t have any sponsorship at all, for the conference certainly, I need sponsorship to make up and to get to where I want to. But there are certainly challenges. I can appreciate that, but it’s also really exciting as well-

Payman: Of course.

Mahrukh Khwaja: That, something new can come and we can have different conversations in dentistry. Also, I’m helping to create a seat at the table where I feel, perhaps we’re not always given that seat, it’s nice to actually just create that-

Payman: Something that comes to mind is dentistry is actually a very female dominated situation. If you think of-

Mahrukh Khwaja: The number of students graduating-

Payman: I’m not even talking about dentists, I’m talking about nurses. Dental practises are overwhelmingly female. Talk to me about that. Are we just talking dentists? Are we talking, the team, are the team members involved?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Definitely within the… Are you talking about within the group?

Payman: Go on.

Mahrukh Khwaja: The group definitely doesn’t consist of just dentists, hygienists, therapists, nurses.

Payman: Really?

Mahrukh Khwaja: It’s not definitely focused with dentists and the socials we’ve had. We’ve had lots of hygienists and therapists being involved.

Payman: Great.

Mahrukh Khwaja: And nurses, which is really nice to see from kind of connecting, coming together, sharing their experiences.

Payman: If you had to be remembered for something professionally, what would you like it to be, your ideal thing? What would you like it to be or what would you like people to say about you and your impact?

Mahrukh Khwaja: I would love for them to say I made a difference to their mental wellbeing and it might be something as small as I read a post and it really resonated with me and I’ve been going through a difficult time and thanks for just being open about your journey. Something as simple as that. It doesn’t need to be, you know, something really big. I’d really really love it if I was remembered for that.

Payman: Does it happen anyway? Did you get DM’s saying that? Must do.

Mahrukh Khwaja: All the time.

Payman: Does that feel good? That must feel good.

Mahrukh Khwaja: It’s really amazing to have these open conversations and conversations, I wasn’t having before. Really nice to connect with different dentists and, and be really open and vulnerable about where I’m coming from and sharing my story. Appreciating how it can help someone else that might be going through similar struggles and-

Payman: Give us some of the positive role models you’ve spoken to and some of the things that, I don’t know, let’s imagine I’m a young woman undergrad and looking for positive role models to follow. Who are they? What are some of the stories some of these interesting stories that you’ve heard?

Mahrukh Khwaja: There’s certainly quite a few women that I’ve connected with-

Payman: Give some examples, who have you spoken to?

Mahrukh Khwaja: Bernice Ganda Sade McGrath [Shavananow] there’s a number of them. I mean, all of them. I don’t really need to name drop any of them to be honest because all of them have been really inspiring and positive in different ways. They bring different things to the conversation. Malia Ajanajad was a big one for me in, when I met her, I felt she’s promoting a type of female leader that I would love to see more of. Someone who’s assertive and kind and loving, has softer components to her and it’s the kind of leader that I naturally aspired to. It was great to to see and talk to her about her journey.

Payman: It’s a conversation that happens quite a lot in corporate life, isn’t it? If a woman does really well in the boardroom, can she do that without becoming a man, without going masculine.

Mahrukh Khwaja: There’s an element of that.

Payman: That’s what you’re speaking to.

Mahrukh Khwaja: There’s an element of that and I feel like women-

Payman: She has managed to keep her female side well.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I’d love to see that more. For me, I connect with that type of woman a lot more than the woman that’s more aggressive, but certainly I think women can be whoever they choose to be.

Payman: Of course.

Mahrukh Khwaja: They can be celebrated in lots of different ways, but it’s really nice personally, to see someone who speaks openly about their emotions yet they’re still doing really well. And you can still be a woman and appreciate all of the emotional side of you and yet still go really quite far. In fact that to you’re just more likely to connect and empathise with the patient. It really does make you a better clinician rather it being something negative.

Payman: Some of those stories we’re going to have slightly I’m sure, and I’m Shavana by the way… There’s some great stories with those and then as you say, so different to each other.

Mahrukh Khwaja: I mean there’s this well less known dentists out there as well-

Payman: Of course.

Mahrukh Khwaja: And they’ve all got very valid and interesting perspective, it’s really nice to connect with them.

Payman: On the station.

Prav Solanki: You did great.

Mahrukh Khwaja: Thank you so much for having me.

Prav Solanki: Thank you for your time. It’s been great.

Speaker 4: This is Dental Leaders where you go to go, one one, emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thank you for tuning in guys to the dental leaders podcast. Just got little requests to make. If you’ve got a suggestion of somebody else who we should be interviewing or somebody who’s got a really strong story, powerful story to share with us, please send us a message and help us connect with that individual so we can bring their stories to the surface.

Payman: Thank you so much for taking the time guys. If you got some value out of it, think about sharing it with your friends and subscribing to the channel.