Month: May 2024

Rhona/Emma: The key to sustaining a good, mutually pleasurable sex life is flex [00:00:05] and change. And in order to have those two things, you need to have communication. [00:00:10] If we don’t feel able to talk about sex, you’re not going to be able to evolve and change and experiment when [00:00:15] it comes to having conversations with your partner, if you want to kind of shake up your sex life, you want to do something different, but [00:00:20] you feel like, oh, how do you do that? How do you approach that conversation if maybe you haven’t talked about sex before? [00:00:25] A really great way of doing that is, ah, I actually listen to this podcast the other day. Oh, I actually had a friend [00:00:30] tell me about this. I actually went to an event and they were talking about how x, Y, and Z [00:00:35] can be a great thing to explore, to spice things up or whatever. So you kind of have this third party [00:00:40] influence. And so with that, we’re saying, actually what a great way then if you go on a date to something [00:00:45] like sex talks, that can be your kind of the conversation starter for you and your partner to then be [00:00:50] like to go up to them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rhona/Emma: And it’s not competition saying, I don’t [00:00:55] like what you’re doing here, I hate this or I like this. They’ll be like, oh, I thought that was a really interesting point that that person [00:01:00] made. What did you think? Because then you’re also acknowledging maybe that person has sexual shame, worry, anxiety, whatever. [00:01:05] So I really like I try to encourage more people to go on dates asexuals because I think hot date also [00:01:10] bright green flag if that’s if you know, if someone’s saying to you, let’s go. And because it shows [00:01:15] that they’re open to have conversations about sex and intimacy.

[VOICE]: This [00:01:25] is mind movers. Moving [00:01:30] the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. [00:01:35] Your hosts. Rhona Eskander and Payman [00:01:40] Langroudi.

Rhona/Emma: Welcome to another episode [00:01:45] of Mind Movers, where we explore the intricate relationship between our professional lives and mental health. [00:01:50] In this episode, we’re joined by Emma Louise Boynton, a visionary writer, broadcaster [00:01:55] and the dynamic force behind the acclaimed sex talks platform. [00:02:00] Emma’s journey from producing at major news outlets, from to founding initiatives that champion [00:02:05] open dialogue on taboo topics, offers a unique perspective on the intersection of communication, [00:02:10] intimacy and mental wellbeing. Today, guys, we are talking about sex. [00:02:15] So welcome. Thank you. It’s really weird having your introduction [00:02:20] read to you because I do lots of presenting and hosting and I’m usually the one in control reading [00:02:25] the intro. So having my intro read back to me, I’m like, oh my God, who is this person you’re talking about? [00:02:30] I know sometimes, like that’s when I, when people give me my bio, I’m like, stop.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Do you prefer asking [00:02:35] the questions or answering them? I bet you prefer answering.

Rhona/Emma: I like both, like the thing [00:02:40] is, podcasting has made it really. I was talking before on a podcast that one of my dream [00:02:45] jobs was to be actually a presenter, and he was like, oh my God, like, I never knew that. And I was like, yeah, I always [00:02:50] would have loved to be a TV presenter. And I think that podcasting offers use that opportunity. [00:02:55] Although my friend Ingrid, who’s amazing, she works for universal and she goes to all of like, [00:03:00] she’s really high up. She’s like, why would you ever want to be a presenter? I’m like, why not? She’s like, the presenter [00:03:05] is like the person that’s holding the tray, like delivering the champagne. [00:03:10] You’re not the champagne, you’re the tray. You do realise that? And I was like, I don’t mind being the tray, you know, because I think [00:03:15] it gives you like an opportunity and I, I really enjoy it. But obviously, as you know, because she’s got [00:03:20] her own podcast, podcasts give us an opportunity to learn and really listen. And I think listening [00:03:25] is such an underrated skill. And I think that we have the opportunity. When I first started podcasting with [00:03:30] Payman, because he’s been doing it a long time, he told me that I wasn’t listening enough and I think I’ve taken that on board. [00:03:35]

Payman Langroudi: Not really. Shut up.

Rhona/Emma: Work in progress, [00:03:40] are we not? Okay, fine. Well, whatever. We can listen back to this. Okay? So I [00:03:45] always love understanding the person that’s like, in my, um, chair. [00:03:50] We’re going to go like, delve into sort of your past, what you’re doing now, etc.. [00:03:55] Um, but in a nutshell, tell us a little bit about your upbringing, your background, how you ended up doing sex talks. [00:04:00] Wow. How long do you have my background? Um, well, I [00:04:05] come from a family of journalists, which kind of is the first kind of key to putting all [00:04:10] the pieces together. Um, so both my parents are journalists. My mum is a kind of lifestyle [00:04:15] travel, health, wellbeing writer, and my dad has always focussed on politics [00:04:20] in travel. Um, although he is not a travel journalist, as he said many times over, not really sure [00:04:25] why. He does a lot in travel, but nonetheless that’s how he defines himself. Um, so always grew up [00:04:30] in a very kind of literary home where bad grammar [00:04:35] is not an option. So my parents, I like autocorrect my grammar as I speak because I can [00:04:40] hear my dad being like, no, sorry, correct that. Um, and I slammed the thesaurus down. So [00:04:45] I think that has very much informed my love of reading and writing and words, [00:04:50] um, stories help us see the world. I love that Joan Didion quote, um, [00:04:55] the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves are like the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves [00:05:00] shape the way we see the world, and hence how we behave in it. That’s very much a reinterpretation [00:05:05] of what she said. But it’s kind of like that. Um, and I think it’s true when I grew up with. Yeah, lots of books, [00:05:10] stories around. My sister’s an actress, so I think that’s just another way of telling stories. [00:05:15] And she’s very good at that. So props to her. So yeah. So I grew up with [00:05:20] stories being, I think, the currency without really realising it. And I never wanted to be a journalist growing [00:05:25] up. I never really wanted to necessarily follow my parents foot path, and I and I haven’t [00:05:30] really. And I think if, you know, I talk about sex, which is not what my dad thought I would do, but [00:05:35] I remember when I was, I think it was when I just finished university, I was [00:05:40] doing my masters, actually.

Rhona/Emma: So I did a I studied politics at university and I went to university in Manchester. [00:05:45] And when. Oh yeah. Yeah. No, your lovely sister [00:05:50] and then went and did my masters at Birkbeck. So I did night school and studied psychoanalysis [00:05:55] like psychosocial studies and worked at a think tank alongside that. So I thought I’d go into politics and do kind of policy [00:06:00] making stuff. And then I listened to. I’ve always loved listening to radio. [00:06:05] I think, again, just loving stories, loving conversations, love interviews, love kind of deep, [00:06:10] long form interviews. And was listening to an episode of Woman’s Hour once and I’ll never forget it. It was Jenni Murray [00:06:15] interviewing Damilola Taylor’s mother, and I think she became Baroness Taylor and [00:06:20] Beverley Knight, the singer, and she was interviewing her about the death of her son. [00:06:25] And then, you know, she’s telling a really the harrowing story and all the kind of advocacy work she’d done [00:06:30] since. And then Beverley Knight sang an acoustic version of a song she’d written about Damilola called Fallen [00:06:35] Fallen Soldier, and it was such a powerful piece of audio and [00:06:40] the song finished. And there was just silence. And silence, I think is one of the most powerful things [00:06:45] in audio, in radio. And you just heard Jenni Murray, who was one of the [00:06:50] most kind of stoical broadcasters in, you know. Well, she’s no longer doing Woman’s Hour, but such [00:06:55] stoical broadcaster. And you just heard her go. Hmm’hmm from one mother to another. [00:07:00]

[VOICE]: I’m so sorry.

Rhona/Emma: And in that moment, I just burst into tears. I was just sobbing. [00:07:05] And I in that moment, I was like, God, there is so much power [00:07:10] in brilliant storytelling and particularly in audio. And [00:07:15] I think it was kind of at the time in which podcasts were like coming onto the scene. And I just thought [00:07:20] at that moment I was like, I have to do this. I want to do a job that allows me [00:07:25] to help other people feel deeply, to help other people feel [00:07:30] deeply and primarily to make people feel less alone in whatever they’re going through. And [00:07:35] so that was like a real, like, notable turning point. And so whilst I was doing my [00:07:40] masters, I then also applied for, um, work placement at the BBC and went to radio [00:07:45] four, and that kind of put me on the track to working in media. Did you enjoy working at radio four? [00:07:50] I loved it, it was a bit like going to the Promised Land and being like, [00:07:55] yeah, I have arrived. Like radio four was played every day in my house. Growing up, I loved Woman’s Hour, [00:08:00] so being there and like meeting all the presenters I had on the radio was so that was me being like, [00:08:05] totally starstruck. I mean, I think probably the equivalent of an actress going to Hollywood and being like, wow, that [00:08:10] was me. Um, I think I realised there that all [00:08:15] the things they say about BBC, it is fabulous. The journalism are amazing, it is slow as hell, it is so bureaucratic [00:08:20] and it is slow. And I remember I was broadcast assistant and I was also I’d done some, I was [00:08:25] doing some shadowing work and then some running at Sky news at the at the same time and Sky news by [00:08:30] comparison, they work fast. If you’re smart, if you’re clever, and if you just work, they will just give you opportunities. [00:08:35] Jobs. Okay, cool. You’re suddenly you’re in all these rooms. And I was so I was working at both these places and I’d always [00:08:40] engaged with BBC and that was what I consumed. And I never didn’t watch Sky that much. [00:08:45] But the difference in these two companies was really notable.

Rhona/Emma: And I remember someone saying to me, my manager at BBC [00:08:50] was like, if you work as a broadcast assistant where you’re like printing scripts and, you know, doing the basic [00:08:55] stuff for two years, you might end up like Duncan, a researcher, and I looked [00:09:00] over and I was like, wait, two years before I’d have any sort of like, any more responsibility. That [00:09:05] just seemed crazy to me, because at the same time I was working as a runner then then being, you know, Sky, they were [00:09:10] like, oh, hey, do you think you can make a podcast? I was like, yeah, sure. And then suddenly they were like, cool, can you set up our new podcast? [00:09:15] And I like, literally like learnt how to make podcasts. So I think I was so I’ve always hungry, [00:09:20] ambitious and I think ended up actually working at Sky news and switching over. [00:09:25] And I hadn’t really planned on doing news, but I wanted to be in a fast paced environment. I wanted to have lots of opportunities. [00:09:30] I wanted to be able to grow. I wanted to be able to move around. So I ended up going more to Sky. But [00:09:35] love and will forever love the BBC. And I think the you know what they produce, what they create is just [00:09:40] phenomenal. And my dream, at some point I want to present a [00:09:45] radio four series on sex. I love that you know what? Whilst I was listening, [00:09:50] I was watching the other day, um, with my partner, we were watching the new film [00:09:55] with Billie Piper. Scoop, have you seen it? I use have you seen it? No. My [00:10:00] first job on Newsnight was with Sam McAllister. Really? Yes. It was. It’s the story about [00:10:05] the journalist as you were talking. You know, I have to say, I don’t think I recognise [00:10:10] the power of journalism and the media and journalists in particular, [00:10:15] that fight for justice. So basically the film is [00:10:20] about the true story about the journalist that did the Prince Andrew interview. So I don’t [00:10:25] see you like, I don’t know if you know it.

Payman Langroudi: I know Esmé Wren. Huh.

Rhona/Emma: Ah. Who was the editor [00:10:30] of Newsnight during that time? Yeah, amazing. But you know, what really struck me is that, first of all, that it was three [00:10:35] females, you know, that were like, really like collaborating together to get this story. And it was so hard [00:10:40] to get that story, but they knew it was so hard. But they show you like the nuances [00:10:45] of the BBC, like wanting to be at the forefront, but the nuance of them not wanting to [00:10:50] be offend and be too controversial. So it was really interesting for me to watch that journey throughout journalism. [00:10:55] But what I realised, and what I hear through you, is that journalists are people that really [00:11:00] see the power of storytelling and the power of the difference that can make when you reach [00:11:05] all those outlets and how they can change the narrative. And I think that that’s like a really important [00:11:10] part of what they do. And like how sex talks, you know, like as well. [00:11:15] But talk to us because obviously, like sex is this hugely taboo subject. How did you decide [00:11:20] you wanted to do something that was related to sex? Well, it’s funny actually. Recently [00:11:25] I did an interview about six months ago for like, talk radio or something. I can’t remember, [00:11:30] but I was interviewed by Tom Newton Dunn, who I’d used to book on Sky news as [00:11:35] one of our contributors, and when I was an interview producer at the time. And so I would [00:11:40] kind of see him in other news capacity and he and he’s like, Emma, didn’t you used to do news [00:11:45] and now you do sex? And I was like, yes, Tom. Yes. He he kind of blush more than I did. [00:11:50] Um, so the transition I worked in news and current affairs for [00:11:55] I think cumulatively about five years I. Which is kind of wild. Um, did you like it? [00:12:00] I did, I didn’t want to stay in 24 hour news. I actually kind of. I think [00:12:05] I like depth and analysis, and I don’t have a fast news metabolism in that [00:12:10] I don’t love consuming endless amounts of news. I find I [00:12:15] much rather go deeper. And I want analysis.

Rhona/Emma: I want to really understand something and I don’t want to know everything. [00:12:20] I actually don’t think there’s as much value in that. I think that in a social media orientated age, we’re just bombarded [00:12:25] with so much information and for me, debt and misinformation and misinformation. But to me, depth over breadth I think [00:12:30] is really key. And so I knew I always wanted to go deeper into it and always have [00:12:35] always really been interested in mainly, mainly on kind of gender equality stories. So I ended up going [00:12:40] to New York and working for Tina Brown, who’s like, you know, the icon OG journalist [00:12:45] who just who set up who like, uh, revolutionised Vanity Fair, set up the [00:12:50] Daily Beast, then set up women in the world. So I worked on her live journalism event called women in the world and [00:12:55] working on that really, I guess it combined a lot of the things I really cared about. It was [00:13:00] brilliant journalism, combined with a focus on gender equality issues combined with live, and I always [00:13:05] loved live element of TV, but I love a live audience. I’ve always volunteered in [00:13:10] the background at live events, so I used to work at film festivals, at literary festivals. I just love live [00:13:15] events. I love the fact that it can all go wrong. I love the fact that, like, you have to [00:13:20] have, there’s a kind of a deadline because I’m a procrastinator, but there’s a deadline at a live event like your audience is there, so [00:13:25] you make it happen. And so it was working in New York and working under the tutelage of Tina. That [00:13:30] really began to get my brain whirring of thinking, okay, because I knew I wanted to create my own thing at [00:13:35] some point. The kind of delusion of being in your mid 20s, I but nonetheless, anyway, came back to London and [00:13:40] started doing my own companies. And yes, it’s plural because they didn’t work. So it’s a [00:13:45] very like noble endeavour called the Venn, which is a uh, like newsletter focussed on US [00:13:50] politics. Then set up her hustle, which is a creative production agency, which got me back into doing live events. I used to host [00:13:55] lots of events focussed on women’s careers, demystifying women’s career trajectories.

Rhona/Emma: So that [00:14:00] kind of got me presenting interviewing in a live event perspective. We [00:14:05] raised some money. Then the pandemic happened, kind of went to shit. But it was in the pandemic. [00:14:10] Uh, yeah, entirely because I think we just done our biggest event. We’d raised Pre-seed funding. [00:14:15] Me and my business partner, we did our biggest, best live event, got paid a chunk of money [00:14:20] for it, had, you know, had Mahalia play. I hosted a panel that was incredible. Like it was [00:14:25] it felt like there was momentum. And I knew that we were on to something great. And then the pandemic [00:14:30] hit, and I think for me and said my like skill set and my joy comes in live events. I mean, live events were screwed [00:14:35] for years. I just we did a lot of stuff online. We, you know, we did a podcast. We just we did a [00:14:40] lot in that period. But I think it just didn’t take off in the way that I’d envisaged, because live events is what I want to do. But nonetheless, [00:14:45] in that period in lockdown, I started doing sex therapy personally, and [00:14:50] that was because I’d gone to a dinner party with some kind of semi strangers. Actually, you [00:14:55] know, we were like dipping in and out of lockdown. Yeah. And it was one of the, like dipping out bits. And I’d gone to this dinner party and I, [00:15:00] I never really spoke about sex, which sounds wild to say now because obviously it’s all I do. [00:15:05] But I’d never spoken about sex, and that was because I had quite a bad relationship to sex. I didn’t really enjoy sex. [00:15:10] I hadn’t been able to orgasm in partnered sex for like seven years, since I broke up with my, like, one [00:15:15] long term ex-boyfriend love. And I just didn’t really think that [00:15:20] much about it. I didn’t put it in that high priority. I was just like, I’m just not a sexual person. And [00:15:25] it kind of it’s quite a big like point of shame. Like, I couldn’t really understand how all my friends seem to be able [00:15:30] to just be so anxiety free around sex and just be able to be like, yeah, this guy.

Rhona/Emma: We started hooking [00:15:35] up and in my head, I’d always be thinking how like, how are you not beset by [00:15:40] anxiety when you go to have sex with someone? How do you not feel like so much shame and embarrassment and awkwardness? [00:15:45] Anyway, so I was at this dinner party and I was explaining this for whatever reason. We got on to the topic of sex and [00:15:50] I was telling these semi strangers, I guess, because of it felt like anonymous, because I didn’t know them that well, [00:15:55] and they just like looked at me in horror. And as it had transpired, both of them, [00:16:00] these two girls I was sitting next to, had both gone to see a sex therapist, the same sex therapist separately, [00:16:05] and she had transformed their sex, like their relationship to sex. And they had since become [00:16:10] evangelicals for the cause of sex therapy. Little did I know, I, too, would become the [00:16:15] most passionate proselytiser for why people should do sex therapy. So [00:16:20] like, they gave me her number and I was like, okay, fine. I like a business incentive. And the [00:16:25] wonderful Sharmadean Reid who runs the Stacked World, I was working with her at the time, um, on her editorial, [00:16:30] the editorial arm of the Stack Media Company, and I told her I was doing sex therapy, and she was like, you should do this [00:16:35] as a column called conversations with My Sex Therapist. Brilliant idea. She has an [00:16:40] idea a minute. She’s so smart and creative. So she commissioned me to write the series [00:16:45] and thank God that she did, because, I don’t know, I would have gone through with it. If it not been for writing [00:16:50] the column. I would have lost interest or been like, whatever. Did sex therapy found it [00:16:55] transformative, primarily. Because I went in and said [00:17:00] to my sex therapist, I’m broken and he won’t be able to fix me. I don’t work how everyone else works, I just [00:17:05] I’m not a sexual person. I don’t like it. There’s something wrong with me. And she’s [00:17:10] her first consoling piece of advice was you’re really not alone in this. Everyone thinks [00:17:15] that they individually are broken in their relationship to sex, and actually that’s symptomatic of our [00:17:20] broader broken sex culture.

Rhona/Emma: She didn’t say exactly those words, but I’ve since kind of, you know. Yeah. Love it. Yeah, [00:17:25] it sounds a lot sexier. It sounds exactly. But, um, she’s incredible. Alex. She’s she’s [00:17:30] now based in LA, actually. But what I didn’t really realise, I think, is my relationship to my body was so [00:17:35] wrapped up in my relationship to sex. So I’d grown up with an eating disorder. I’d been anorexic when I was like 12 to [00:17:40] 15, been bulimic. I mean, every way you can punish your body. I’d done it over exercise, [00:17:45] under eating, taking laxatives, and the bulimia was something that I’d kind of. When I talked about [00:17:50] having an eating disorder, I always talked about it very much in the past, having never really done any therapy or anything to deal with the like, [00:17:55] deal with it. I just kind of like got physically better so I didn’t look ill, but [00:18:00] it was my coping mechanism for anxiety. So I was still I mean, the bulimia [00:18:05] got quite bad in the pandemic, as anyone with a mental health issue I’m sure can relate [00:18:10] to. It really did kind of shine a magnifying glass on those issues. And I during the pandemic [00:18:15] it got quite bad. But I just like again, it was kind of like disassociative. I just thought like, this [00:18:20] is just not a part of me that I’m going to deal with. This just happens in the background. But I’m just I can’t deal with it. And [00:18:25] doing sex therapy. My sex therapist said something to me early on. That was the thing that probably has [00:18:30] made the biggest impact on my relationship with my body. And she said, for as long as you’re at war with your body, you’re going to find [00:18:35] it really hard to enjoy sexual pleasure and enjoy sex. And what she enabled [00:18:40] me to see is that I was so intent upon punishing my body and [00:18:45] living constantly at war, scrutinising my body in the mirror the whole time, and my and my two fat hairs this bit [00:18:50] getting fatter, um, constantly. If I was home alone, which was not very often because [00:18:55] I was always out and about and busy and busy, that would be a chance to make food [00:19:00] and then be sick.

Rhona/Emma: Couldn’t even have a bath because I found baths really confronting because I hated seeing my body in water. [00:19:05] And I also like, just didn’t want to sit still in my body because my body was something I was always trying to escape. [00:19:10] And if I was in it, I was punishing it overexercising whatever. And over the course of doing sex [00:19:15] therapy, she really helped me kind of reintegrate with my body. And she was like, you have to seduce [00:19:20] yourself. You need to learn to seduce yourself. And yes, masturbation was a part of that, but it was also just learning to [00:19:25] like, light a candle, run a bath and like, enjoy my own company and be [00:19:30] a bit more still. Again, like make peace with my body. And that helped me [00:19:35] bring back my orgasm, which was great. But it ended a 17 year [00:19:40] battle with bulimia. I couldn’t be sick after that because I just like I just realised [00:19:45] I had I she helped me learn to take care of myself in private. [00:19:50] And the sexual component part that was a really important, like masturbation is all about [00:19:55] like, you know, giving yourself pleasure in like the privacy of your own home. But it was more than that. [00:20:00] It was about just feeling sensual and sexual alone and being able to just [00:20:05] care for myself in a way that wasn’t punitive, as it always had been. And I think it [00:20:10] was doing that, that I then realised I was like, this is it precipitated such a [00:20:15] fundamental shift for me and made me realise that our relationship with sex is never just about fucking, it’s [00:20:20] about how we relate to our body, ourselves, how we see ourselves in the world, our level [00:20:25] of confidence. I think if you are, you know, brittle and self [00:20:30] like in this kind of battle with self, in the privacy of your home that is extending [00:20:35] into the rest of your life, you are not showing up fully. If you feel broken alone, you feel broken in public, and [00:20:40] maybe you have a front that allows you. And to all intents and purposes, I would have seemed confident. Great. But I think [00:20:45] that feeling of brokenness really like, you know, slipped into other aspects of my life. [00:20:50]

Rhona/Emma: And so doing sex therapy completely. Yeah. Changed everything. And [00:20:55] I was like, right, we got to do something about this because it wasn’t that like it wasn’t brain science. [00:21:00] Like it was just learning to talk about sex again, being getting confident, talking about sex. I was like, why are we not having more of these [00:21:05] conversations openly, publicly? And yes, sex is everywhere. It’s in marketing. [00:21:10] It’s on, you know, it’s on TV, it’s Love Island. But where is the nuance? Where is the vulnerability? [00:21:15] Where are the conversations of people saying, hey, I actually like, feel a bit awkward about sex? You know, I actually kind of hate my body. [00:21:20] And the more I started talking about it to friends, the more I realised that actually always amazing sex lives [00:21:25] I thought I was surrounded by lots of other people, were also feeling broken in their relationship to sex, and a lot of [00:21:30] the guys as well as the girls. It wasn’t just women like me. And so I thought, right, I’ve [00:21:35] got to do something that helps to bring the sort of conversations I had in the sex therapy room into [00:21:40] public arena, and that was sex talks. So, gosh, so much like swirling through my mind. [00:21:45] Like, first of all, well done for like going through those battles. I also had an eating disorder when I was at university, [00:21:50] still had like a poor kind of relationship with like body image. In fact, the other [00:21:55] day someone asked me, I did the whole like answer question. Thing on Instagram. They’re like, can you talk about your exercise and diet [00:22:00] regime? Your body looks great. And I literally just turned around and was like, I think this is the most unhealthy thing that [00:22:05] people can answer to give the exercise and diet regime, because everybody’s body is completely different. And I think [00:22:10] it’s like a really unhealthy way to compare yourself to people online. And I’ve gone through people saying I was too [00:22:15] big to too small to boot. Do you know what I mean? And like the cycle, you can’t win. I’m like like in a phase of like, acceptance, [00:22:20] which is a good thing, especially now that I’m like thinking more about motherhood now.

Rhona/Emma: I grew [00:22:25] up with a lot of shame and a lot of taboo because of my culture. So a Middle-Eastern, [00:22:30] I’m Christian, my grandma was super religious, like super, so there was a lot [00:22:35] of Christian guilt around all of that stuff. It was like no sex before marriage, [00:22:40] none of this, etc. etc. etc. and I used to even like shame Tanya [00:22:45] for like being more kind of like in touch with herself, I would say as well, like the majority [00:22:50] of dentists that are going to be listening also come from a very like strict like [00:22:55] Islamic background where like, yeah, a lot of.

Payman Langroudi: People.

Rhona/Emma: Know a lot of them. There’s a lot of Islamic [00:23:00] dentists, you know, that would basically also say I’ve had conversations with [00:23:05] them, you know, like that there is like a massive taboo around the subject. Now [00:23:10] do you think like, oh, that’s why I think like this is very interesting for me. Do you not [00:23:15] think like there’s such it’s such a challenge because people that have grown [00:23:20] up in certain cultures, like forget like the patriarchy, forget Western culture, but like there [00:23:25] is like a real challenge when it comes to sex and different cultures.

Payman Langroudi: It isn’t that that’s [00:23:30] the best thing about it. And that’s that’s probably why I don’t think.

Rhona/Emma: I don’t think you can overcome it, especially when it comes [00:23:35] to religion. I think you can overcome it. I think anyone, because I think it’s all, you know, we’re all kind of personal journey. [00:23:40] I mean, just reflect back. My mum is Christian, very Christian. I grew up going to church and [00:23:45] my mum, it’s been interesting. I mean, bless my parents, they are so [00:23:50] incredible. They read my writing. They like they’re very like proud of sex talks [00:23:55] up to a point. But I was just staying at home for, um, a couple months actually, as I was [00:24:00] finding new place. And it was really interesting because my mum was really proud of me. And there’s nothing [00:24:05] I don’t tell her actually much. Their children, they’re like, actually, please tell us less. And I’m like, but let me tell you the [00:24:10] latest date and hook-up gone wrong. And my dad’s like, oh my gosh, you’re literally gonna kill me. But it was interesting being [00:24:15] at home because my mum can’t, like, she projected a lot of her own shame around what I do [00:24:20] onto me. And it was interesting, those dynamics, she would say, like, for example, I’m single, [00:24:25] I’m dating, and she would just say things like, I mean, you have to remember [00:24:30] because you’re on a platform called Sex Talks, everyone is going to think you’re very promiscuous, which let’s [00:24:35] first of all unpack that. Promiscuous is a really gendered word. It is so directed at women. And [00:24:40] this notion of women being kind of women being promiscuous and slutty, it like, feeds into that. I have to just interject [00:24:45] that, because if you Google it, we have this debate, my friend and I, with her partner. He [00:24:50] said promiscuous could only be related. Something about like promiscuous [00:24:55] means basically like it’s for for men. It’s not bad for women, it’s bad essentially. [00:25:00] And then I googled it and it said basically Unselective approach. [00:25:05] That is what it says. When you say, what does promiscuous mean? It says demonstrating an unselective [00:25:10] approach, which I thought was really interesting and selective in the sense that you don’t [00:25:15] care. You don’t care. Yeah. But I think the, the colloquial usage of it has been very directed towards [00:25:20] women and not towards men.

Rhona/Emma: So it’s like it’s true. So I think we’ve culturally it’s like and it feeds into this Madonna [00:25:25] versus whore dichotomy which was popularised by Freud, which is this idea that women can either [00:25:30] be one of two things. You’re either the Madonna and you’re kind of pure and virgin and you’re married material. You’re the [00:25:35] wife or you’re a whore and you’re great in bed. You men want to have sex with you, but you cannot be the [00:25:40] one. You’re not wife or girlfriend. Exactly. And in this word, promiscuous, I thought was interesting that she was using [00:25:45] this and and the way I would then, you know, we’d have conversations about kind [00:25:50] of I’d be like, you know, what do you mean by that? And it was just quite clear, like, she feels shame [00:25:55] on my behalf for the fact that I don’t feel shame around sex. I don’t feel shame around talking about it [00:26:00] publicly now. And I just found it. It was quite an interesting kind of brush up with [00:26:05] actually, like the ideas of sex that I also grew up with. Um, I didn’t have a very, like, strict [00:26:10] religious household, but I mean, my conversation with my mum and when I was young was she said, don’t have sex until you’re 18. [00:26:15] And I believed that you shouldn’t have sex until you’re married as well. I was like, no sex before marriage, no drinking, no [00:26:20] drugs. I was yeah, I said, God would punish me. I didn’t masturbate because of that. I thought God was watching. [00:26:25] And I remember the first time I was like 12, I was in the bath and I, like, swam with the shower head, [00:26:30] as I’m sure lots of young people do. And I was like, oh, this feels so good. And afterwards I [00:26:35] was racked in religious guilt. I was like, God saw, he hates me. He will smite me. Like, this is [00:26:40] not going to happen again. And never and didn’t masturbate until I was in my 20s because I was like, wow, this must this [00:26:45] cannot happen again. And so I hear that entirely. And I think but going back to your question, like I [00:26:50] do think religious guilt and shame, I mean, there are so many different, [00:26:55] I guess, cultural ideas.

Rhona/Emma: The years and ideals around sex, and we’re all [00:27:00] grappling with a kind of cacophony of ideas [00:27:05] and kind of cultural pressures around sex that obviously can affect us in individual [00:27:10] kind of different ways. I mean, not least because then the backdrop of that is [00:27:15] a, um, what I see as like a broken sex culture and that we don’t learn at school [00:27:20] properly about sex. Sex education is really poor, really reductive. Sex education [00:27:25] only became mandatory. There was new legislation in 2017, but became like rolled [00:27:30] out in 2019. That is only like what, like five years ago, it actually became [00:27:35] compulsory for schools to teach relationships and sex education, which to me is just [00:27:40] so wild, like we all are. Like, the only reason we’re here is because someone [00:27:45] had sex. Like, it’s just like, that’s it. And it’s just nonetheless, it’s just become [00:27:50] so weighed down in so much fear and shame and all these sorts of things. And I think it’s [00:27:55] this idea that if we talk about sex, everyone’s going to suddenly become promiscuous and everyone’s going to be fucking in slutty, whatever. [00:28:00] And that’s not the case at all. We all need to learn the language of sex in order to be able to [00:28:05] explore what sex means to us, to explore our boundaries, to be able to assert consent, like consent, is [00:28:10] meaningless if you don’t know what you’re comfortable with. Personally. Um, I think I’m slightly deviating. [00:28:15]

Payman Langroudi: I’m not saying being promiscuous is a problem.

Rhona/Emma: No. Oh my gosh, I think I think the [00:28:20] word itself is, uh, actually deeply problematic just because of its colloquial [00:28:25] usage. I think everyone needs to work out what their personal [00:28:30] relationship is with sex and go for it, explore it, delve into it. [00:28:35] But I think what the kind of when we have the the political conversations [00:28:40] that the political moralising that we see kind of happen periodically around sex and sex education, [00:28:45] like Miriam Coates, the conservative MP, just I think it was like two weeks ago was saying, I don’t want my [00:28:50] children learning about sex at all. And her fear is that if they learn about sex, [00:28:55] they’re suddenly going to start. They’re going to be sex obsessed.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s so interesting because [00:29:00] I’m.

Rhona/Emma: Like, I’m like mesmerised.

Payman Langroudi: The look firstly, women being [00:29:05] interested in sex culturally are sex and the city maybe [00:29:10] was the first time like in the in pop culture. Yeah that that came up and [00:29:15] I used to listen to a podcast guys I fucked. It was like, oh yeah, it [00:29:20] was amazing. Yeah, it was a women talking to each other about the guys they fuck.

Rhona/Emma: And also Danny [00:29:25] is obviously taken off massively. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But but this question of, [00:29:30] you know, sex education, my kids go to French school and one of [00:29:35] the French mums, they’re much more open about this French. She’s, she’s, she said to me, have you had the chat [00:29:40] with your daughter yet. And she was like at the time she was 11 or something. And I thought 11. [00:29:45] Yeah. And then she said something. It really struck and she said, look, either you can have [00:29:50] that chat or my daughter can have that chat with your daughter, or the 12 year old boy can have that chat [00:29:55] with your daughter. So maybe she’ll have that chat with your daughter. And yet the taboo [00:30:00] ness of it still got me.

Rhona/Emma: So the original question was about [00:30:05] the culture thing. Do you see what I mean? Do you not think there was like, listen, my dad’s a gynaecologist. We had them on podcast a [00:30:10] couple of weeks ago. It was amazing. And he took me and Tania to a pub, a pub when we were 12, [00:30:15] and he got the diagram of the like, the vagina and all this stuff. And he talked to us, talked [00:30:20] to us about it. But being from Middle Eastern background. Yeah, from the anatomy perspective and then being from [00:30:25] a middle eastern and it was really detailed. Yeah. But from the, from the Middle Eastern perspective. Sorry, dad. Love you. [00:30:30] But he was also like, you must try and save yourself for a man [00:30:35] till you get married. Men like it when you save yourself. That was that narrative, right? [00:30:40] And that’s fine. We were 12, right? Like he obviously was like trying to protect us. But that was my whole question. Like there [00:30:45] is such a like cultural disconnect. You know, as I said to you and I [00:30:50] still I’ve spoken to like people from certain cultures and they’re still judgement. There are [00:30:55] still women judging other women for being more like, you know. So do you not think there is such [00:31:00] a huge I don’t think it’s something that will ever. And actually now even women [00:31:05] will say not even women. People will say on the internet, how dare you label something as it being [00:31:10] empowered? So again, with my dad’s podcast, I said I’ve never had a one night stand, [00:31:15] which I haven’t. And we were talking about it and my dad said that he doesn’t agree with one night stands, even though he’s had them, because he [00:31:20] personally didn’t enjoy them as a man. He just didn’t enjoy them because he said that he liked it. In a loving [00:31:25] relationship, that’s when he enjoys the sexual component. However, I [00:31:30] said as like some women may view it as empowerment. And then I got trolled and hated on [00:31:35] being like how you’re discussing. How dare you say that? It’s an empowered thing. But this is what I’m trying to say is like, I actually [00:31:40] think the the majority of opinions are so vast, so vast.

Rhona/Emma: And I [00:31:45] my question to you originally was like, do you think that culturally, you know, these [00:31:50] things can be tackled, especially where people around the world, women around the world are being killed for like [00:31:55] sleeping with people? Do you know what I mean? I do, I think. I mean, if [00:32:00] we take the world, I probably probably slightly to bigger. Yeah, fine, I think I [00:32:05] think think big. Yeah. I think obviously yes. Because [00:32:10] our views and attitudes around sex have changed [00:32:15] dramatically. I mean, even the fact that, yes, sex education isn’t great, like [00:32:20] it’s still now we have to have it taught in schools. There’s now compulsory. So in the UK you look at how [00:32:25] there’s constant evolution of ideas and progress is not linear and progress. We’re not on this [00:32:30] kind of progressive trajectory towards one kind of final destination. But I do think if you just look in the past [00:32:35] kind of 50, 60, 70 years, how women’s roles generally in society have progressed [00:32:40] dramatically. I mean, we weren’t allowed to have bank accounts, you know, go to university, etc., etc. [00:32:45] you know, you know, what we are we are now, let’s say like 100 years ago. So if you [00:32:50] look at how quickly things are progressing when it comes to gender relations more broadly, [00:32:55] I think that is indicative of how fast ideas aided much by [00:33:00] technology now and social media how fast things are progressing. I think, therefore, [00:33:05] that there is I think ideas will continue to and kind of develop [00:33:10] around sex as they do around everything. I think that the shame [00:33:15] around sex and the way in which misogyny [00:33:20] and patriarchy get re entrenched continually through sexual [00:33:25] norms. We spoke before about this kind of Madonna whore complex use of promiscuity [00:33:30] as being inherently negative, those things which are asymmetrically directed at women [00:33:35] and used to kind of shame, embarrassment. I don’t think that stuff goes away tomorrow, [00:33:40] and I don’t think having conversations openly about sex is suddenly going to address that at all. But I [00:33:45] think that what I see the work of sex talks, for example, you know, I [00:33:50] hope there will be a global iteration of sex talks. And I am launching in different countries.

Rhona/Emma: I’m here for [00:33:55] it. It will be. But I think for me personally, what I think is really important in the work that I do and the [00:34:00] work that I see the sex talks is doing is. Really. I [00:34:05] realised how fundamental your relationship to sex is, [00:34:10] because exploring my own relationship to sex for [00:34:15] the first time, and now being on what will feel like a lifetime journey, I’m sure exploring it in different ways [00:34:20] proved so transformative and important for me in learning [00:34:25] to exist in my body and myself. And I just [00:34:30] it makes me so sad to think of lots of other people not having that so. And whatever [00:34:35] you end up, whatever path you then choose after that, whether you choose someone you don’t. If one [00:34:40] night stands aren’t for you, don’t have one. Exactly. If they are, you know, for some people they are [00:34:45] going to be they’re fine with a one night stand. I think everyone’s relationship to their body is going to be different. [00:34:50] Cultural mores are 100% will affect that, and we can’t just shake them off overnight. But [00:34:55] I think to not have the opportunity to explore one, the [00:35:00] breadth and depth of your body’s pleasure, like your capacity for pleasure, like we get this one [00:35:05] body like, let’s make the most of it. Let’s explore what it can do for us and what it can give us. I think that’s [00:35:10] an amazing thing, and getting comfortable with exploring our body and not feeling those points of shame. I think [00:35:15] for me it feels like such a shame for people not to have that, you know, in their lives. [00:35:20] And so I think with sex talks, what I really I would never say I’m prescribing one [00:35:25] ideal version of a relationship to sex. Like, this is what you should think about sex. This [00:35:30] is how you should approach sex at all. It’s more let’s actually have a conversation that helps. Try [00:35:35] and remove some of the shame so that the decisions you’re making about your relationship to sex, your relationship to your body, [00:35:40] are based off the fact that you have you have you feel able to explore. You feel able to explore those [00:35:45] questions, explore that relationship to self without being kind of clouded and [00:35:50] kind of burdened by by shame.

Rhona/Emma: Question for you, though, is this what about the female that says, I want to only [00:35:55] have sex with one person? Great, if that’s what you want, and you think that they [00:36:00] can explore elements of themselves with one partner person. Personally, I [00:36:05] wouldn’t be able to do that because I think I’ve learned so much about sex partners from [00:36:10] different people. And but that’s a personal relationship. And I’ve I’ve not had one [00:36:15] sexual partner my whole life, so I don’t know. But if that’s how if someone [00:36:20] is happy. Yeah. I think it comes down to like what makes you feel comfortable. Are [00:36:25] you able to explore different facets of your sexuality and self with someone with [00:36:30] the same person? Great. Amazing. That’s fantastic for you. And I think again, I just think it is such [00:36:35] a individual experience. But I think the key thing is just feeling. I guess [00:36:40] it really comes back to the shame thing, removing as best you can, or like tackling where that that shame is coming [00:36:45] from. And Kate Moyle, I reference her all the time. I just think her work is brilliant. She’s a sex therapist. I’ve interviewed quite [00:36:50] a lot for sex talks and she says she’s banned the word should from her therapy room because so many people come [00:36:55] in. Should so many people come into her room saying, you know, I really should be having sex with one person [00:37:00] only, I should be having sex with my partner every single night. I should, should, should, should, should. And [00:37:05] she says, what that reflects is this sexual script, this, this idea of what sex should look like, that [00:37:10] we get kind of we piece together as you said with gave example of your of your daughter. Like we get all these different [00:37:15] ideas of sex without having a strong firm foundation of sex education. We don’t have a strong, [00:37:20] compelling counter-narrative with which to analyse all these piecemeal bits of information that we’re getting [00:37:25] throughout our lives. And then let’s be real, pornography is so widely available online, and most [00:37:30] kids have access to pornography. More than half of children at the age of 13 have seen some online pornography. So [00:37:35] that’s an effect on how people see sex.

Rhona/Emma: We’re getting all this peaceful information without that firm, [00:37:40] you know, understanding, grasp of good sex education that helps you be a bit more decisive [00:37:45] about what is good versus what is bad information. So then we come show up. If you do sex therapy, being like, [00:37:50] you have all these ideas of all these shoulds that have come from all these different, um, kind of cultural influences, [00:37:55] and they’re affecting how you relate to sex personally, therefore, how you see your body, how [00:38:00] you relate to your partner and you don’t necessarily really know where these ideas have come from. And a lot of the time those [00:38:05] ideas are what are causing what’s causing shame, because you have this idea of the should of what sex should look like and [00:38:10] you’re not having sex like that. So then that feeling of like disconnect is what is causing all the shame. So [00:38:15] Kate Moyle says, let’s no more shoulds. There is no one right way to have sex. There is one, no, [00:38:20] not one right way to view yourself as a sexual being. So it’s really about unlearning [00:38:25] a lot of the more kind of deleterious narratives around what sex should look like that [00:38:30] get, you know, that we imbibe throughout our lives and thinking going kind of back to the drawing board, what does, [00:38:35] like, good sex look like to me? What does being in my body. And I think that’s where self-exploration, I [00:38:40] think is such a fundamental piece of this, is, you know, what feels good for me? What makes me feel [00:38:45] comfortable, what’s it like? What is the context in which I feel good having sex? Like, is it that it is [00:38:50] with, you know, I need lots of conversation before do I need, you know, I need to feel really safe, all those things. And I think [00:38:55] that’s what is so kind of critical on this. Do you find it challenging to date? [00:39:00] Oh good question. Um, no. Oh, and I think the [00:39:05] current climate is an interesting one to be dating in, because I think we are going through such an interesting [00:39:10] transitionary period when it comes to all forms of intimacy, because technology is playing such [00:39:15] a like fundamental role in mediating all human connection now and now, the proliferation [00:39:20] of dating apps, everything is online, and suddenly you have this perception of a infinite [00:39:25] abundance of potential partners, and it creates, you know, if you’re always one swipe away from perfect, why ever choose a [00:39:30] person in front of you?

Rhona/Emma: That’s exactly what Esther Perel said I was listening to today. It’s oh my God, I love it. And [00:39:35] so I think that that has kind of whether you’re on dating apps or not, it’s changed the landscape in which we date. That’s [00:39:40] not to say it’s inherently bad. It just it’s different. And I think that [00:39:45] I’ve become Queen and I, I kind of fall into this. I am queen of the WhatsApp boyfriend because [00:39:50] I love to chat and I meet people, and then I end up in this kind of, yeah, there’s like WhatsApp relationship [00:39:55] where we’re just talking all the time and never actually seeing each other. And that is a digital [00:40:00] intimacy that’s just like not particularly fulfilling. And I think that I find difficult [00:40:05] to kind of transition away from that. I think when it comes to sex talks, whether that’s [00:40:10] like a barrier to dating. I don’t think so. I think I probably [00:40:15] I mean, people like slide into my DMs, probably thinking that they’re going to get a date because I like, talk [00:40:20] about sex. And I’m like, no. Yeah. But I haven’t really found it to be. I guess I like [00:40:25] when.

Payman Langroudi: Guys think that you’ve got some special techniques or. Yeah, probably, yeah, [00:40:30] maybe.

Rhona/Emma: I think because invariably when I go on a date with someone, [00:40:35] invariably they’ll ask me what I do, and then I talk about sex, and I have, because a story [00:40:40] around sex talks is so personal. And it’s so, you know, it’s about not liking sex, about sexual dysfunction. [00:40:45] It’s about eating disorders. And like, I can kind of choose not to tell that, but it’s kind of quite hard to tell. Sort of like they’re [00:40:50] always like, but wait, why? Like you’re in news. And so it quite quickly puts us into [00:40:55] quite vulnerable terrain, which I’ve actually just found opens up really interesting. I love a nice [00:41:00] conversation with people, but vulnerability is so underrated. Like people don’t realise. [00:41:05] Like actually not being vulnerable has something to do with ego. You know, I have a therapist and we talk about [00:41:10] this a lot. Listen to Esther Perello. I think I grieve the adolescence [00:41:15] that I never had. I think I do now that I’m engaged. Um, yeah. [00:41:20] Um, and he’s amazing. I grieve the adolescence and I have, because [00:41:25] if I’m honest with you and I’ve spoken to you about this before, my sensuality, [00:41:30] sexuality and confidence massively increased in my 30s. But I was told I was already [00:41:35] on the shelf. And the irony was, is that more people were attracted to me. So there was this kind of like dichotomy [00:41:40] going on, and I was so scared of, like being on the shelf. [00:41:45] And so I never explored it because of the Christian like guilt, etc., etc., etc. I’ve only been [00:41:50] in like long term relationships. So for me, I’m grieving the adolescence that I never [00:41:55] had. I’m not sure to be honest, because first of all, I really am attracted [00:42:00] to people based on an emotional connection. First. Um, do I think [00:42:05] it would have been interesting to hook up with someone I’ve never, like, hooked up with someone just because I physically thought they [00:42:10] were good looking. Like, that’s kind of like wild to me that I never did that. And I think [00:42:15] that, you know, there is a choice. And Esther Perel talks about this. She was like grieving, grieving, loss of self [00:42:20] is okay. And I think there is loss of self. Would I have hated it I don’t know, do you see what [00:42:25] I mean. So I can’t comment.

Payman Langroudi: What about the other side of it. Do you see it as some sort of achievement?

Rhona/Emma: I [00:42:30] think it’s achievement, but yeah, I think I always really admired my self control and my [00:42:35] will, you know, like I would I mean, I made my boyfriends wait a hell a long [00:42:40] time, you know, like and the thing is, because I wanted to be social and I was proud of that achievement. Remember? Like, I’ve [00:42:45] never drank, I’ve never taken drugs. I was never under the influence. Every decision I made was [00:42:50] a very conscious decision. Am I proud of that? Yes, I am proud of that. But also I’m [00:42:55] like, were they mistakes that like should have happened because people go through that as part of their like [00:43:00] growing pains, you know? So I think there’s definitely like a conflict within me that wonders, [00:43:05] you know, if I had let go and part of me, I love it. But again, it’s the Madonna [00:43:10] whore complex. It was interesting. Did you see that viral clip of that guy from Made in Chelsea? Like everyone [00:43:15] like he almost got cancelled. He basically went online and said that, like, and he’s a bit of a player, [00:43:20] and he basically said on a podcast that the way that he fucks, excuse my language, [00:43:25] um, girls on like girls that he just he’d never have sex [00:43:30] with his wife like that. And then the podcast went super viral and all these people were all the people were like, [00:43:35] what the hell? And all that? But he basically went out and said it, and he’s a 27 year old boy. Do you see what I [00:43:40] mean? So I still think that there is this complex, you know, for men. But also I think we’re seeing [00:43:45] the younger generation. There was that report by King’s College that found the other day, um, that [00:43:50] said that more Gen Z young boys think that feminism [00:43:55] has gone too far and men have a worse time than women like. And we know the worst [00:44:00] time is in life, as in in life, just like have fewer. Junkies are like, we’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Talked about this [00:44:05] a.

Rhona/Emma: Lot against them. And that one third of the boys who had heard of Andrew [00:44:10] Tate viewed him favourably. Yeah. So I think we’re also seeing kind of from a cultural perspective because [00:44:15] of figures like extremists like Andrew Tate, who are espousing, [00:44:20] um, very radical ideas around masculinity and toxic [00:44:25] brand of masculinity and are being pumped out by an algorithm. And I interviewed Laura Bates, who’s a brilliant, [00:44:30] um, writer the other day who set up the Everyday Sexism campaign and has written prolifically on the [00:44:35] structural ways in which patriarchy is continually entrenched in our society. And she [00:44:40] said that, yes, they’ve always been figures like Andrew Tate. But now the difference is we have an algorithm, and we have these social [00:44:45] media platforms that pump out their content to this target audience and are basically [00:44:50] unaccountable for that. And so you just have this, but.

Payman Langroudi: The algorithm is pumping out your content [00:44:55] to people who are interested in you, you know. Yeah.

Rhona/Emma: But but but what you’re saying is that then when you have when it comes [00:45:00] to more extreme ideologies like those, then they are the Trump effect as well. [00:45:05] Exactly. And, and so you’re seeing and so kind of young boys, for example, can just be fed this digital diet [00:45:10] of what is like hate speech and hate is like.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you say you say [00:45:15] that, uh, you know, we’re talking about gender equality and you’re very interested in that. Yeah. Are [00:45:20] you surprised that men are thinking that they’re now [00:45:25] not in the same sort of situation as women?

Rhona/Emma: I think that we’re going [00:45:30] through a really interesting period when it comes to gender relations, in that if you think in the broad [00:45:35] scheme of history, the changes, the as I said, [00:45:40] the podcast Women’s Position Society has changed so rapidly [00:45:45] over a relatively short period of time. If we think back, if we think to how quickly things, [00:45:50] I mean, in many ways really slow, in many ways it’s happened quite fast. And so I think now [00:45:55] I think we are having a kind of, I guess, a quite a dramatic pendulum [00:46:00] swing. And I can understand how young boys now who are [00:46:05] growing up having, you know, not also learnt about history, not learnt about kind of strife [00:46:10] of feminism and learn about historic gender inequalities, don’t understand the kind of structural ways in [00:46:15] which gender inequality issues continue to be very present. Bias against women. [00:46:20]

Payman Langroudi: Describe some of those.

Rhona/Emma: So, for example, we know that a woman is killed at the hands of her partner in the UK every [00:46:25] three days. So violence against women was declared a national crisis by the government at the end of last [00:46:30] year. Wow. So prevalent is violence against women, um, in many [00:46:35] different forms, and I think that so. But I can understand how young boys growing up today, who also [00:46:40] are online, who are being fed, you know, uh, conversations by the likes of Andrew Tate and [00:46:45] growing up and looking around and thinking, hang on a second, more women are graduating. Um, more [00:46:50] from university than men. I think, you know, women have feminine. There’s this kind of conversations online, on social [00:46:55] media. There’s a like feminism has got given women this real like, you know, thing to write around. And there’s a sense [00:47:00] of solidarity. And we have International Women’s Day. And I can understand how young boys growing up thinking, [00:47:05] but I don’t understand how women are supposedly like losing out. And I’m being told, like I’m the perpetrator [00:47:10] of this, but I haven’t done anything like, yeah, if if again, the education piece is so important. And [00:47:15] so I’m not like blaming young boys, young men at all. And I actually think they need [00:47:20] support and guidance and they need they need the role models that they need. And I think it’s so [00:47:25] difficult. I think it’s so, so difficult because I kept saying like, who’s the role model, who’s the role model, [00:47:30] who’s the role model? And it’s like, you have this like Johnny Bravo type character, come along and [00:47:35] like spout all of the stuff like Andrew Tate.

Payman Langroudi: I just don’t think that life is harder for women than it [00:47:40] is for men anymore. Anymore? Anymore outside of childbirth. Yeah. Okay. [00:47:45]

Rhona/Emma: There’s just, I think, a thing. Payman. So he doesn’t think gender pay gap. That’s a thing. So actually [00:47:50] just yesterday looking into this. So gender pay gap actually isn’t significant in 20. So in [00:47:55] kind of early start of our career not super significant I actually don’t the data on that specifically though. So I [00:48:00] don’t come up with that when women when it comes to having children. And [00:48:05] there are so many issues on this, but women will earn 60% less than their [00:48:10] partner for the ten years after the birth of their first child. That is, [00:48:15] that’s emblematic of broader systemic issues around child care costs being really high. [00:48:20] We don’t also, again, we don’t really incentivise men. We don’t have a system that’s set up [00:48:25] to encourage men taking paternity leave. And that being there’s so many problems again, [00:48:30] then perpetuate this issue, then women not being encouraged to go back to work and not making financial sense, [00:48:35] which then hold women back in their careers. And we know that long term that also affects things like, for example, contribution to pension [00:48:40] pots. So women end up accumulating less money in a pension being held back in their careers. And a lot of that is, [00:48:45] again, kind of a systemic issue to do with how we’ve who’s where the responsibility for childcare, [00:48:50] who’s shoulders that ends up sitting on. It’s been interesting anecdotally, seeing my friends in their [00:48:55] beginning to have children and look around and and friends who’ve had to really [00:49:00] consider, do I does it financially make sense for me to. Go back to work when I will be earning [00:49:05] basically nothing just to afford the childcare it’ll take to have my child going into nursery [00:49:10] who were therefore having to think, do I give up on a career I spent ten years building? And obviously, like [00:49:15] long term it will be so fundamental. I mean also let cost of living crisis. It’s very hard for any [00:49:20] families now on like normal incomes to be able to exist on, on one salary. So I think [00:49:25] there’s again but I think across the board there are myriad examples of where [00:49:30] systemic gender inequalities continue from the gender pay gap. So medical misogyny, the gender [00:49:35] pay gap, which we say is really comes into fruition when [00:49:40] at childbearing age for women. So that’s a kind of like second like stage of one’s career. [00:49:45] The pleasure gap. We know the orgasm gap is still alive and well, which is the. [00:49:50]

Payman Langroudi: Main men regularly orgasm. But many women go easy.

Rhona/Emma: It’s easy so well again. [00:49:55] But it’s actually it’s not that it’s like easy for men. I think it’s just like culturally we just we have a very, um, [00:50:00] gendered, male centric script for how we learn to have sex. I mean, way sex, come on, [00:50:05] biologically, like, we know that it’s easier. It is easier for men. I [00:50:10] mean, they can have sex with a turnip and come for sure. So if you look at the statistics. [00:50:15] So the gender, the orgasm gap is a disparity between the rate at which men versus women [00:50:20] orgasm in heteronormative partnered sex. So all genders orgasm 95% of the time [00:50:25] when they have, um, when they masturbate. Men orgasm pretty consistently at 95% [00:50:30] of the time when it comes to partnered sex. Casual sex, pretty, pretty consistent. But women, it drops [00:50:35] to 65% when it comes to, uh, sex with a partner in a relationship. And it drops to [00:50:40] 18% when it comes to casual sex. And I think those statistics probably maybe even higher than they probably actually are. [00:50:45] Um, what we see. So Doctor Catherine Gurney is an amazing sex therapist, writes about this. She’s actually given a Ted talk on [00:50:50] this. And she says, we know that the orgasm gap is an anatomical issue. Ak [00:50:55] women are just harder to make come because there isn’t an orgasm gap in same sex couples. So [00:51:00] in, uh, same sex couples, for women, lesbian couples are orgasming at the same rate. [00:51:05] So they’re just so. And again, none of this is just to to put blame at [00:51:10] like, men’s feet for this. Because I think what we see in the orgasm gap is reflection [00:51:15] of, again, this very narrow, reductive view of sex that we again learn from a young age. There’s [00:51:20] a story that always stands out to me that Laura Bates, who I mentioned before, said to told me once, and I think [00:51:25] she has written about it in a book, she does sex education in schools, and she went into a school some ten years ago [00:51:30] and or maybe less than that anyway. And there was a young boy who was [00:51:35] 14 who had, um, raped a girl in his class, and the teachers had asked [00:51:40] him, why didn’t you stop when she was crying?

Rhona/Emma: And he said, because I thought all women cried when they had [00:51:45] sex. His only like exposure to sex and his understanding [00:51:50] of sex had come from porn, because that’s what he’s seen online. And he hadn’t had proper sex education prior to that which had prepared him. [00:51:55] So I think to me, that story always stands out because I think it shows we are all done a disservice [00:52:00] by not having a proper education around sex and not having more open conversations, shame [00:52:05] free conversations around what sex can be like, exploring pleasure, exploring consent, [00:52:10] all these things. So I think with the orgasm gap, what we’re seeing is the fact that when you see sex [00:52:15] in films so often it’s two people don’t have any sort of conversation beforehand. They start kissing, [00:52:20] they fall onto the bed, they have penetrative sex. Very seldom is there any sort of clitoral stimulation, [00:52:25] even though we know that, um, more than half of women require more than 70% of women. The stat has left my [00:52:30] head, uh, require clitoral stimulation in order to orgasm, and they fall into bed. They come simultaneously. [00:52:35] Happy days. Nothing is said. So what we’re missing there is communication is key to good sex. [00:52:40] Clitoral stimulation for most women is a requisite for orgasming. And so. [00:52:45] And the focus on penetration again is kind of a very male centric model of sex. [00:52:50] It’s not to blame men. It’s just that if that if we’re growing up without proper good sex education, so what we’re learning is [00:52:55] what we see on TV and then in porn, like it’s kind of little wonder that then when we go [00:53:00] to have sex for, you know, early on, maybe for all of our lives, we’re kind of replicating [00:53:05] what we’ve seen elsewhere, but we don’t necessarily know that things can be different and therefore that they can [00:53:10] be better to add to the statistics. Also, I think it’s 70%, [00:53:15] 80% of women in a recent survey said that they’d faked having orgasm. So also women are [00:53:20] participating in this in faking having orgasms. Because how is your partner meant to learn [00:53:25] how to make you feel great? If you’re faking it, have a question? Have you ever faked it?

Rhona/Emma: Actually, haven’t [00:53:30] you haven’t ever faked. You know what? Once I was so bored [00:53:35] and he was like, I just like, I just I was before I’d done sex therapy, I really, I [00:53:40] like, really didn’t know what it took to make me cum. I was like, not in contact with my sexuality [00:53:45] in a very real way. And I was sleeping with someone and he was like, he came. And he was like, I want [00:53:50] to make you come. And I was like, oh, I did. Yeah, I just didn’t know what to do. And I felt embarrassed and I was like, oh, [00:53:55] just. But I never like, I’ve never like, I’ve never done like when Harry met Sally like this. The thing is, is that men can fake [00:54:00] it for.

Payman Langroudi: Faking it to make the guy feel better. Yeah. Well, just.

Rhona/Emma: Done. Get it done.

Payman Langroudi: Done. [00:54:05] Until he’s finished, right?

Rhona/Emma: Yeah, but they can get it done. That’s the thing, I think. Have you ever faked an orgasm? Exactly. [00:54:10] So there we go. Um, yeah. Have you? No. Never. Never [00:54:15] was legit. Yeah. So. But I’ve also, as I said, because I’ve been in, like, loving relationships, [00:54:20] but I think like. There’s just I mean, it’s just such a fascinating [00:54:25] topic to me. But also what fascinates me the most is also like the history behind it. Because if you [00:54:30] look at, like the Roman Empire, the Greek Empire, they were such sexual, sensual beings, [00:54:35] you know, like literally like orgies going on. And then it’s like, how did we get to where we are now? Which there’s there’s so much shame [00:54:40] around it. Well, I think the Victorian era had quite a big impact. But then this is what I find. I mean, this is why [00:54:45] I think sex is such an interesting topic, because it really does tell us so much about [00:54:50] our society, about how cultural ideas have progressed, [00:54:55] about how we see gendered roles. There’s just so much that shows up through in the context of [00:55:00] sex because, as you say, like sex, sex isn’t going anywhere. [00:55:05] We’ve always had sex, hence how we’re still here. And it’s [00:55:10] just been the kind of cultural ideas that sex has been shrouded in have been, [00:55:15] have changed, evolved, have often been rooted in religion. And we know that, as you said earlier, that’s very much rooted [00:55:20] in shame. But I’ve always been kind of, I guess, reflected like the ideas of the time around, [00:55:25] for example, like gender roles and stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Culturally. It’s interesting because we [00:55:30] had, uh, one of our biggest customer was in Holland for years. So I got very close [00:55:35] to our Dutch distributors. Yeah. The conversations they have with their kids about sex. Totally.

Rhona/Emma: Oh, they’re totally [00:55:40] free. I mean, like, they’re totally, like, even when I went to, like, the Scandinavian countries, I was kind of, like, blowing [00:55:45] my mind. But I remember, like, feeling really disrespected by this guy that was like, Swedish. And he took me on, [00:55:50] like first date and like within the first, like 30 minutes, he was trying to sleep with me and I was like, do not treat me like a whore. [00:55:55] And I was like so upset about it. But it was definitely just because he was being Swedish because like, I can like tell [00:56:00] that now in hindsight, he wasn’t disrespecting me, you know, like he definitely was. It’s like it was like [00:56:05] definitely like a cultural, like disconnection there. Um, but the one thing that I wanted to [00:56:10] say was, I want to talk to you about addiction. Right. Because, um, you know, addiction is something I’m really interested in, [00:56:15] especially how most of us are addicted to something. Gabor talks about it a lot. Yes, [00:56:20] but my question is, is that sex addiction is very real. [00:56:25] We all know the conversations that people are having now around Russell Brand. And, you know, back in [00:56:30] the day, he was the self, you know, confessed, um, sex addict, etc.. How [00:56:35] do you know that your relationship with sex is healthy versus it being an addiction [00:56:40] because you want a constant dopamine high? I don’t think I have the expertise to answer that question. [00:56:45] I would want to leave that with the professional, because I feel I can’t do justice to that question. Okay. Because and [00:56:50] I wouldn’t want to say because I think there is a lot of, um, there’s a lot of different [00:56:55] there are a lot of different ideas within in sex therapy more broadly around sex addiction. [00:57:00] I’ve done an article on this on sex addiction and love addiction before. And yeah, I don’t think I would [00:57:05] be able to do that justice. I’m not.

Payman Langroudi: The answer must lie in addiction. I mean, how do you know that you’re having [00:57:10] a drink, you’re just enjoying a drink or you’re an addict? It’s when the addiction becomes the most important thing. Yeah, [00:57:15] the thing becomes more important than everything that’s true.

Rhona/Emma: And it’s when you basically see. And again, I don’t want [00:57:20] to say because I don’t have the like, I’m not a therapist, I’m not a doctor. So I, I’m always [00:57:25] cautious of, of yeah, what I say in these sort of things. But. When [00:57:30] a when the habit or when the like process become the like the impact [00:57:35] of that habit. So say having sex becomes detrimental to your life. [00:57:40] Yeah, that’s when it’s tipped into being something that has a is a kind of an addiction, [00:57:45] like a dangerous addiction, as opposed to you just having like a really, [00:57:50] you know, a sense of appetite for sex, which is.

Payman Langroudi: There more of it, you know, is there what is [00:57:55] there more of it?

Rhona/Emma: More sex addiction.

Payman Langroudi: Porn?

Rhona/Emma: Yeah. Again. So I actually did [00:58:00] an interview with a sex therapist of the day, and she said that she cast [00:58:05] quite a lot of doubt on the recent research around porn addiction, actually [00:58:10] suggesting that it isn’t growing massively. I again, I just don’t on this area I feel slightly [00:58:15] wary of just because I’ve read a lot of different pieces of research recently and just don’t. Yeah, but [00:58:20] yeah. No, I hear you. I hear you around that. But I find it, like, [00:58:25] incredible that you manage to heal your eating disorder because I definitely, you know, when I [00:58:30] went through my body image and when I had, when I had was seriously underweight [00:58:35] and under eating at university, it was definitely around the whole notion of like, not [00:58:40] having body fat and a bikini or in your underwear or anything like that. And, you know, and it’s [00:58:45] an interesting thing that, you know, when you heal, like you said, that part of you, then you get more comfortable [00:58:50] with your body. Like I could never, ever go to like, a nudist beach. Isn’t that [00:58:55] what I could never. Could you do it? Could you go to go to a nudist beach? Sure, sure. He’s [00:59:00] looking at the camera being like, sure, guys, but I just couldn’t. I’m just. I’m too uncomfortable. I’m too scared of what people think. [00:59:05] Really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rhona/Emma: About what? Are you scared they’re gonna.

Payman Langroudi: Your body. You go on a beach. Beach?

Rhona/Emma: Okay. [00:59:10] Yeah. I just think it’s more like a more invasive. There’s parts of me also [00:59:15] on the beach in a bikini where I still cover up because I don’t want people to see what it actually looks like. Even a bikini. [00:59:20] Really. So it’s quite interesting. Body image issue. I was reading some, um, research [00:59:25] today actually, that was linking body image issues with sexual dysfunction. Um, [00:59:30] which actually was a my sex therapist. So I had, um, Alex, I mentioned before, [00:59:35] she ended up having written her master’s thesis, as I found out on that connection, which [00:59:40] is previously pretty under-researched element of sex research, that connection between body image and sexual dysfunction. [00:59:45] And there was a research paper I was looking at the other day that said that that body image issues may [00:59:50] have just as profound an impact on sexual dysfunction as performance [00:59:55] anxiety, which is kind of huge and hadn’t, hadn’t really been discussed before. And [01:00:00] then I looked up some other. I was like, well, how many people? Because we know, like, I actually don’t know a woman [01:00:05] who hasn’t got some form of issue with her body and with weight. And I’m sure now increasing [01:00:10] with social media, men are experiencing that too. But statistically, according to nice, 700,000 women [01:00:15] will have an eating disorder like have an eating disorder each year. And that’s only people [01:00:20] that have been reported. That’s only. And so the likelihood is that statistics can be so much higher, because how [01:00:25] many people are essentially nurturing a some type of eating disorder. But that’s not necessarily [01:00:30] like diagnose. And so I was thinking about that and I was like, that is so wild to me. Like how many women have [01:00:35] essentially a bad relationship with their body. And if we think the body image is are then affecting sexual [01:00:40] like dysfunction, how many women particularly but people more broadly are having not great sex [01:00:45] because they hate their bodies. Yeah. And that really blows my mind. And that really breaks my heart. Like [01:00:50] it’s not just about, you know, it’s one in the spectrum is not being able to like show your body on a beach, but at the other end is like, can [01:00:55] you even enjoy your body when it comes to sex?

Rhona/Emma: If we’re if all these kind of negative [01:01:00] thoughts around our bodies are so pervasive and have such a kind of crippling effect on our ability just to like, be and [01:01:05] experience pleasure, I think men also experiencing it more and more because they’re getting they’re getting like and social [01:01:10] media, WrestleMania and all the, you know, there’s conditions that exist also. And like I’ve seen some [01:01:15] of the most like insanely ripped men that actually are deeply insecure about their body, you know. So I think [01:01:20] that, you know, there’s social media is having just I mean, for everyone, we’re just constantly being [01:01:25] bombarded now with ideal like idealised images of what we should look [01:01:30] like with filters, with people who’s now like, you know, the Love Island lot, [01:01:35] come out with a six packs. And of course, that’s like, you know, filters down into then how we all, [01:01:40] even an unconscious level unrealistic perceive our bodies. Also you remember a lot of these people online like that’s a [01:01:45] job. That is a job to work out every day and to like to look good on camera.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s going to [01:01:50] get worse and worse as well because especially with AI especially.

Rhona/Emma: Yeah, yeah, I think an AI is giving like [01:01:55] a totally, um, I thought I follow Dyneema, I don’t know if you know her. She’s amazing. She’s got millions of [01:02:00] followers. And what she does is, is that she basically debunks like everything influencers does because she was [01:02:05] like, this isn’t a before and after. This is a five minute. And she’ll show her like cellulite showing saggy bum [01:02:10] and then like five minutes later the perky because she just shows about positioning. It’s about lighting, it’s about all this [01:02:15] stuff. And what was interesting, she showed like some a video about how also men were commenting [01:02:20] saying, I came across your stuff and I thought it was only my girlfriend that looked like you, [01:02:25] because they’d seen so many women online that they thought their own women were imperfect. Do [01:02:30] you see why I mean, so, like everyone else in the world has perfect looking women. Because the algorithm.

Payman Langroudi: The algorithm [01:02:35] even does that. Yeah. Even even feeds you the kind of women [01:02:40] that, you know, you’re looking at.

Rhona/Emma: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also then from the even sort of perspective and that’s where I think and social media, I [01:02:45] know we’re kind of this is a constant conversation and that feels like it’s such like a lack of accountability amongst social media platforms. [01:02:50] But I’ve noticed like before, I have actively [01:02:55] sought to I mean, obviously having eating disorder mentality from when I was like age 12, I [01:03:00] like unfollowed a bunch of fitness accounts. I was, I was obsessed with like the before and afters, before and afters. [01:03:05] And obviously I’d look at them and I don’t want to look at them, but then I’d like probably linger on that photo [01:03:10] and then I get the algorithm. So I unfollowed all the like, fitness influencer, food influencers I was following [01:03:15] and still now my home page. And I know this will be this is me. Like I’m obviously looking at things [01:03:20] like, but I’m still my home page sometimes will just become filled again with those before and afters. Even though I’ve unfollowed [01:03:25] people and it just reminded you of like how hard it is to escape the I [01:03:30] guess the more like negative like elements of where your mind is going to take you when social media [01:03:35] is there to like reinforce them, propelling it back at you. Exactly. So even the echo chambers [01:03:40] totally. And yet get off social media. However, it’s hard, you know, especially the [01:03:45] social media is a big part of like I mean, I, I couldn’t have I, I couldn’t really run six [01:03:50] blocks without it. Like it’s my biggest broadcast channel to be able to get the word out [01:03:55] that I’m doing them. That’s like a fantastic promotion, promotion platform, but it’s so hard to use these, [01:04:00] um, technologies in a responsible way when they are designed to be addictive. And [01:04:05] so to use it responsibly, it’s like it’s a bit extreme. It’s like being asked to like responsibly, [01:04:10] take a certain drug, take back a bit, take a bit. And it’s like I was trying to explain to him because [01:04:15] the Esther Perel Jay Shetty podcast, which I mentioned already, um, it basically [01:04:20] she said that there’s this dichotomy between people trying to find their soul mates and being [01:04:25] on dating apps at the same time, because actually it’s a contradiction in itself, because, she said, [01:04:30] dating apps are actually a form of capitalism, because they’re my like, they want you to be on it, they want you to pay, [01:04:35] etc., etc.

Rhona/Emma: and then finding your soul mate is like the spiritual element. So actually they don’t go [01:04:40] together. And I thought it was quite an interesting point. That’s interesting. That seems like an odd thing for her to say though, because [01:04:45] I kind of the business incentive of a dating app. Yes, obviously they’ll all say it’s [01:04:50] not, but obviously like they make money off people being on dating apps. So it’s not there long, long term interest for people to find [01:04:55] a partner. That being said, and so I don’t think they’re set up in a way. I think they do kind of encourage [01:05:00] us to prioritise aesthetic height, those sorts of things in the way that we [01:05:05] browse, and you just have to have some criteria. There are so many people, but on the flip side of that, I would also say that it does [01:05:10] just increase your exposure to more people. Therefore, statistically, from a [01:05:15] probability perspective, increasing who you’re potentially coming into contact with. [01:05:20] And I don’t think that if you I don’t actually believe in a soul mate, that there’s one [01:05:25] person out there. No, totally. I’ve had I’ve had a few soul mates. Yeah, exactly. And I think but so I think there’s a chance just, you know, it’s, [01:05:30] it’s then those if you then go and meet that person kind of regardless of how you met, if you meet someone [01:05:35] you do have a like deep compatibility with and you kind of see it working out with, then I don’t think the [01:05:40] like it’s, it’s working like that. You find them by way of a dating app means [01:05:45] that you’re not going to be able to find it like long term.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s kind of a poetic thing. She said. Yeah, but let’s say you meet someone [01:05:50] at a retreat. A retreat is a business.

Rhona/Emma: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, it’s [01:05:55] it’s sometimes your mind makes these connections and it sounds beautiful, right? Yeah. [01:06:00]

Rhona/Emma: No, I hear you, I hear you. And during your journey with sex talks, have you suffered [01:06:05] from any kind of mental health related issues whilst you’ve been on this business venture? Um, [01:06:10] I actually think I’ve got really good mental health and I get, like, anxious, [01:06:15] and I definitely will always have. I’ll always have body image issues. I think [01:06:20] that will just be a part of who I am forever. And I think that’s probably true [01:06:25] for a lot of women, but it doesn’t take over my life in a really negative way now. And [01:06:30] I think anyone I think running their own business and online today, [01:06:35] anything I think anxiety, comparison, culture, all these things feel very [01:06:40] kind of rife. But I think on the whole I feel [01:06:45] really proud of where I’ve got to from a mental health perspective, because however, I like really [01:06:50] have cultivated tools, I think, to pull myself out of things. And I think that in a way, [01:06:55] like, I know, like for me, you know, it’s a cliche to say like exercise is my medicine. I exercise [01:07:00] every single day. I didn’t exercise today, which is crazy, but I had to be somewhere very early this morning. But I [01:07:05] exercise every single day and where before exercise for me was punishment for me it’s now it is [01:07:10] medicine. It’s the thing that just I think if you start your day, it’s very David Goggins. But if you start [01:07:15] your day with something really bloody hard and a massive challenge, you’ve already kind of won [01:07:20] before, like, yeah, and that just sets you up for like how you want the rest of [01:07:25] your day to go. And for me, it’s about like kind of discipline and getting spending. A whole bunch of energy [01:07:30] early on, and I think that it’s things in what can often feel like a very chaotic [01:07:35] work life, because, you know, when you’re on your own thing, there’s just so many moving parts. Every day is different, [01:07:40] every week is different, and that can feel quite chaotic. I really value having like, certain pillars [01:07:45] in my life that make it feel more stable. So exercise being one of them, um, reading [01:07:50] being another one, just things that kind of keep that feel like they can keep everything grounded. So yeah, I [01:07:55] feel actually like pretty proud. And I feel I can feel it in the way I’m able to, I hope, [01:08:00] support friends going through difficult times. I feel [01:08:05] that I can offer that because fundamentally, even if I’m having a bit of a crap week, [01:08:10] I’m offering from a full cup and I feel that quite profoundly at the moment, I love that.

Payman Langroudi: Have [01:08:15] you learnt listening to people’s stories about men and women [01:08:20] sexually that surprised?

Rhona/Emma: That’s such a.

Payman Langroudi: Broad. Surprised you, surprised you. But [01:08:25] are people more deviant than you thought they were, or are people more [01:08:30] more shy than we thought they were? Or?

Rhona/Emma: I think I [01:08:35] have learned that we all have a lot more. [01:08:40] Baggage and anxiety around sex, then we [01:08:45] often think, and I think that because of things like the orgasm gap, which is [01:08:50] very real, it’s easy to think that therefore our broken sex culture [01:08:55] is more adversely affecting women. And men are kind of [01:09:00] getting the like, good lot. And women are like the, you know, the victims of a broken sex culture. [01:09:05] And actually, I think we’re I said before, I think we’re all done a disservice by the fact that we don’t [01:09:10] get proper sex education that we like. I don’t think the majority of men are sitting there [01:09:15] being like, yes, I got an orgasm she didn’t like. I don’t care, I don’t think that’s the case at all. I think [01:09:20] that, you know, we all, you know, whether I think most people want [01:09:25] sex to be a mutually pleasurable experience, both parts like a form of connection and intimacy [01:09:30] and pleasure. And I think that I have been really struck [01:09:35] by the conversations I’ve had with men about the points of shame, [01:09:40] anxiety and vulnerability that they felt around sex. Because I think I hadn’t. I’d [01:09:45] always just assumed. I thought I was the only one that was broken around sex first and foremost. But I definitely [01:09:50] always thought that the men I was sleeping with, like, were cool as cucumbers and they were like, knew what they were doing, [01:09:55] had it all wrapped and they didn’t. They know, like I think. And that was the thing that struck me so much.

Payman Langroudi: Men [01:10:00] have got so much anxiety.

Rhona/Emma: Anxiety and shame and the performance anxiety performance. Yeah. Expectations around masculinity [01:10:05] like, you know, and this is what I think that like gender inequality issues and like the historical legacy [01:10:10] of gender inequality and notions around masculinity versus femininity, like these gender [01:10:15] straitjackets all of us. And I think the expectations to be macho, [01:10:20] masculine and then expectations to be kind of super feminine like that doesn’t really serve anyone. [01:10:25] Like we’re all nuanced, complex individuals. And I think when it comes to sex, I was really [01:10:30] surprised when I was doing sex therapy that I was having lots of conversations with my male friends, as well as my [01:10:35] female friends, and they were telling me things like, yeah, I actually have had lots of issues with performance anxiety. [01:10:40] I haven’t been able to come X amount of times. I’ve had, you know, I’ve got friends, text me. I do, you know, a good [01:10:45] sex therapist for men. And so I think that was probably something I hadn’t expected because I was just always [01:10:50] thought that I that like I was broken one therefore like this is something that women experience and men didn’t. [01:10:55] And I actually went to a really beautiful conversation the other day with Ben Hirst, who’s fab, who runs, um, who’s [01:11:00] director at a company called Beyond Equality, which works with young boys around cultivating that. Yeah. [01:11:05] Positive, um, like positive notions of masculinity. And he was speaking alongside David Chambers [01:11:10] and Max Hovey. And David Chambers is a sex coach, a men’s sex coach. And [01:11:15] it was a really vulnerable conversation around how much shame and worry that they’d felt in [01:11:20] their sexual careers. Also, having grown up in quite religious households and where masturbation, for example, [01:11:25] had been really frowned upon. So I think that has been a learning [01:11:30] curve for me, and I guess it’s opened my eyes to I’ve had very unsexy, [01:11:35] uh, analogy, which I always use at sex talks, which I think we all go into sex, these kind of backpacks [01:11:40] of anxiety thinking that our partner is backpack free and that they just have like, no load and they’re cool. [01:11:45] Um, and actually, I think that’s why communication is so important, because when you open up and say, hey, actually [01:11:50] I’m feeling a bit nervous or I’d love to try this or something you create the space for, then your partner in turn [01:11:55] to be able to feel like, okay, this is a safe space for me to be vulnerable.

Rhona/Emma: Like, oh, hey, you know what? This has felt like a bit of a worry for me, like, [01:12:00] or anything. Um, and so I think being able to acknowledge that shame and anxiety are things [01:12:05] that we all experience, I think, can also have a profound impact on the way that we show up in sex and therefore allow our partners [01:12:10] to. I love that. Wow. It’s been so amazing and so [01:12:15] fascinating. It’s really, really incredible. So I want to finish off really knowing what’s the [01:12:20] future for you. You know, what’s the dream? Where do you see yourself in like five years?

Payman Langroudi: So first of all, what’s [01:12:25] the current situation? How often do you do the pod?

Rhona/Emma: Um, so I do a live event at the London Edition [01:12:30] Hotel once a month. And can I be invited next? Absolutely. You can both come, so I do. So that’s a kind [01:12:35] of main, uh, like, anchor of sex talks. There’s one big live event every month, and it’s been great [01:12:40] when our second. No, we’ve done two years, so over two years now. But a sell out event series since launch. [01:12:45] So it’s just grown room, which is great. Um, and then I do lots of pop ups. I do them at Soho House and I do pop ups. [01:12:50] I mean, I do kind of sex walk events all over. How many.

Payman Langroudi: People term?

Rhona/Emma: Uh, usually it’s about 90. [01:12:55]

Payman Langroudi: And what’s what’s the kind of person who’s turning up people come on a date or friends come.

Rhona/Emma: Coming [01:13:00] on dates, which gives me so much joy. Not just like.

Payman Langroudi: A cool date. It’s kind of a cool date. [01:13:05]

Rhona/Emma: Okay, so I interviewed your son. Yes, I interviewed Karang-guni. As I said [01:13:10] before, Sex Therapist of the day about her new book, which is all about how how not to let having children ruin [01:13:15] your sex life. And she talked about how over [01:13:20] like a long period of time with a long term partner. So when you have kids together, the key to [01:13:25] sustaining a good, mutually pleasurable sex life is flex and change. [01:13:30] And in order to have those two things, you need to have communication. If we don’t feel [01:13:35] able to talk about sex, you’re not going to be able to evolve and change and experiment. And she was like, [01:13:40] when? It comes to having conversations with your partner. If you want to kind of shake up your sex life, you want to do something different, [01:13:45] but you feel like, oh, how how do you do that? How do you approach that conversation if maybe you haven’t talked about sex before? [01:13:50] A really great way of doing that is, ah, I actually listen to this podcast the other day. Oh, actually had a [01:13:55] friend tell me about this. I actually went to an event and they were talking about how x, Y, and [01:14:00] Z can be a great thing to explore to for, you know, to spice things up or whatever. So [01:14:05] you kind of have this third party influence. And so with that we’re saying, actually what a great way [01:14:10] then if you go on a date to something like sex talks, that can be your kind of the conversation starter [01:14:15] for you and your partner to then be like to go up to start the conversation.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rhona/Emma: It’s [01:14:20] not competition saying, I don’t like what you’re doing here, I hate this, I like this. They’ll be like, oh, I [01:14:25] thought that was a really interesting point that that person made. What did you think? Because then you’re also acknowledging maybe that person has sexual [01:14:30] shame, worry, anxiety, whatever. So I really like I try to encourage more people to go on dates [01:14:35] asexuals because I think hot date also bright green flag if that’s if you know, if someone’s saying to you, [01:14:40] let’s go. And because it shows that they’re open to have conversations about sex and intimacy. So anyway, so so [01:14:45] I do one live event every month and then do pop ups all over. So house is another regular one. And [01:14:50] then take it where I’ve taken to Ibiza, I’m going to launch in New York and LA in the coming months, so I really want to get [01:14:55] sex hooks in America. Was talking to someone today about launching it in Australia, in Sydney, um, [01:15:00] sometime this year. So that’s just for me as a live event. I absolutely love them. [01:15:05] I will be writing a book. I’m in the process of getting the proposal [01:15:10] done, which I’m really excited. I want to just nerd out and like really dig into the research. I love interviewing people, [01:15:15] but I want to get like deep and down and dirty and get in the research. I’m so excited for that. [01:15:20] And then I really want to just continue growing sectors. I ultimately want it to be a show. So it kind of Graham [01:15:25] Norton esque, probably YouTube first show that blends kind of current affairs and sex and [01:15:30] the way I set it up now, it kind of feels a bit like you’re stepping into a studio when you come to a live event. [01:15:35] It’s kind of lights, camera, action, vibes, and I love that. So I want it to be able to be a show and [01:15:40] yeah, have that in the next kind of year or so and then we’ll see. I think those [01:15:45] are kind of I feel like I’ve got quite a lot to go on the podcasts. I’ve comes out every week as well. Um, so I do some you’re [01:15:50] definitely going to make it.

Rhona/Emma: And if anyone that’s listening, you heard her on Mind Movers and she has her own show, [01:15:55] you know, Emma Louise Windsor. Oh, gosh. It’s fascinating. You know, you [01:16:00] are such an incredible speaker and so inspiring. And I’m so glad that you got out of your eating disorder, [01:16:05] etc. and can talk so openly and trying to kind of like really, you know, be a trailblazer [01:16:10] in this space. So thank you so much for coming. Well thank you. Love it so much for having me. It’s been so interesting. [01:16:15] And I did her teeth, by the way for anyone thinks I look amazing, honestly smile. [01:16:20] I get so many compliments on my teeth like yeah, really? She made them, I love them. [01:16:25] Also, before pictures I was like, oh my god, no, they’re still beautiful. Still no. So natural, I love [01:16:30] it. I know they’re just the best. So thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

Siamack Bagueri: His thing was, he said to me, if you can persuade a lender [00:00:05] to lend to you, you’d be silly to say no. As long as you can convince [00:00:10] the other individual, the case is good to invest in you, and [00:00:15] there’ll be an interest rate or a partnership or whatever it may be. You’d be silly [00:00:20] not to say yes to it. So in this day and age of leverage, you know, you know, I [00:00:25] am leveraged. Of course I’m leveraged. I am one to say that. Look, I keep taking [00:00:30] the risk. And during the past 35 years of my career, I’ve done a [00:00:35] lot of good. I’ve failed a few times, I’ve sold a few practices. Now I’m [00:00:40] embedded into, you know, ten solid practices that all being well, as long as we [00:00:45] meet the KPIs, the contracts will renew. And it’s a nice little business bringing in, [00:00:50] you know, bringing us healthy revenue per annum run by specialists under [00:00:55] whom we’ve got the therapist and the ancillary staff. So the system really, really works. [00:01:00]

[VOICE]: This [00:01:05] is Dental Leaders. The podcast [00:01:10] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:15] hosts Payman Langroudi and [00:01:20] Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome to [00:01:25] the podcast, maybe better known by his pseudonym of Mac Bagheri. [00:01:30] She is a highly successful orthodontist that owns ten [00:01:35] large ortho practices with his wife, Peta. And um, if [00:01:40] I may say so. So nice to have you here finally, because you’re a real inspiration to the Iranian [00:01:45] dentist community. People often cite you as the reason they were into ortho. [00:01:50] Yes. Thank you. Even dentistry. Um. I came to the UK [00:01:55] like a lot of us, you know, in a hurry. Yes. My dad had a accountancy firm. He had [00:02:00] a couple of English guys working there. And when. When the UK embassy said leave, he [00:02:05] told us to leave. And, um, me and my mum and my brother came on the same day [00:02:10] the Khomeini came to Iran on that day. It was a busy day at the airport. Yes, yes. What was your story? [00:02:15] How did you end up here? Yeah.

Siamack Bagueri: So basically, um, my sister and I, she [00:02:20] formed earlier than me. We came in the mid 70s. So before the revolution. [00:02:25] Before the revolution. So my, my parents, um, both worked for Nioc, the national [00:02:30] Iranian oil company at the time. And I suppose there [00:02:35] was a vogue at the time to send your kids abroad. I don’t think anybody really predicted [00:02:40] the revolution in the mid 70s. It was a, you know, 70s was wonderful in Iran.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:02:45] you came with your sister boardings.

Siamack Bagueri: Yeah. So basically she she came before me and we went [00:02:50] to, uh, I went to a prep school in Seaford, which is very dreary place [00:02:55] in East Sussex. And then for, you could say for the newlyweds, the nearly deads. [00:03:00] It was quite, it’s quite, it’s quite dreary. How are you? I hated it, I was about 12 [00:03:05] at the time and then my sister was already there and the school down the road. So, you [00:03:10] know, she was in a girls school. I was in a boys prep school.

Payman Langroudi: Parents were back home, parents.

Siamack Bagueri: Were initially my [00:03:15] mum came for six months and she went home so very much in the in the mid 70s we were going [00:03:20] quite a lot to Iran as holidays. I couldn’t for the life of me think, why have they [00:03:25] done this? Because we’re a very sort of a nice life, comfortable life. Then I’ve been dumped [00:03:30] into a prep school and forced to have a bath with four other people naked. [00:03:35] And I thought, this is odd because I, you know, I never I why they’re having a bath, I [00:03:40] didn’t the concept of a bath was quite amazing, you know. And anyway, that was, that [00:03:45] was a shell shock and, and sleeping in a dormitory that was a shell shock wearing shorts. Yeah. [00:03:50] It was just, it was just having a matron. It was the whole thing was quite surreal. And I kept asking [00:03:55] myself, why have they done this? Why have they done this anyway? But then the bedded in. There was a few [00:04:00] other Iranians in the in the school, and then from there onwards [00:04:05] I went to another school again, boarding school for five years. I went to a school [00:04:10] called Haileybury, which is in north of London, in Hertfordshire. But yeah, I mean, I don’t think [00:04:15] my I think if you think about because I was quite young then I didn’t [00:04:20] really realise the political oscillations that was happening in Iran. Perhaps [00:04:25] my dad would, but I think reading quite a lot of people were sending kids. [00:04:30] Yeah, even the 60s and the ehm, the mandate was to get education and go [00:04:35] back and, you know, build a life for yourself.

Payman Langroudi: And so how did dentistry [00:04:40] come into the. Yeah.

Siamack Bagueri: Good point. So basically what happened is quite an interesting [00:04:45] question. So obviously being an Iranian parents always want you [00:04:50] to do either, you know, medicine or engineering or so on. So when I was doing my [00:04:55] A-levels at the time, I was quite good at maths actually, and my teacher said, look, [00:05:00] you really should do computing because, you know, I was doing sort of advanced maths in Iran. [00:05:05] They teach you maths in a good level and.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, imagine where you’d be now.

Siamack Bagueri: Yeah, [00:05:10] exactly. Exactly. I would, I would have been a different thing. And that’s in some ways I [00:05:15] love computing and I love the whole way AI is going to completely it’s going [00:05:20] to be a paradigm shift in dentistry. I think that’s we’re living in extremely exciting times. [00:05:25] You know, contrary to popular belief, dentistry is going to go leaps and bounds [00:05:30] with the advent of AI and tech, and you’re the forefront of it. So, you know, [00:05:35] I’m quite proud of what you’re doing. So now going back to why I did dentistry, I [00:05:40] went for a half time visit to see my sister. She was living in Bristol. She was in [00:05:45] second year chemistry and I went spending time with her. And then she said, [00:05:50] oh, by the way, a friend of mine is doing dentistry, and as soon as a pretty bubbly girl [00:05:55] probably had a secret crush on her, I was, you know, and then I went and spend the whole [00:06:00] day with her, and she was just so enthusiastic. And she took me to the little [00:06:05] dental department at Bristol. She was just she was very pretty, [00:06:10] smelt. And she she just sold the whole thing. You were in love. Yeah. And I thought, I [00:06:15] suppose what I suppose. What she. The element of it that she sold to me was the [00:06:20] concept of seeing patient, looking after patients, getting in 1 to 1 with patients, [00:06:25] which, you know, I’m going to give you two examples in a minute. But then really not having [00:06:30] the burden of medicine, uh, seeing people die emotionally, getting involved with [00:06:35] them. And, and I think that attracted me to the industry. You made your own decision.

Payman Langroudi: It wasn’t like, I think.

Siamack Bagueri: Son, [00:06:40] I think my my O-levels. I was dentistry’s fine round about that time. You’re [00:06:45] now middle of the, you know, middle of the Iran-Iraq war. Fund transfer was very difficult. [00:06:50] So already your.

Payman Langroudi: Parents come by this.

Siamack Bagueri: Time? No, they were still in Iran. And then at [00:06:55] that stage, the parents very much were restricted with with the subjects that we could study [00:07:00] anyway, which is kind of resonated with what they wanted to do. In any case, I [00:07:05] always had fond memories of my dentist in Iran. Always. He was always very turned out smell [00:07:10] nice. I was never really worried about going to dentist. He was really kind, although I [00:07:15] had loads of fillings done. So I think, you know, I, I fell into it slightly. [00:07:20] Sometimes I have regrets, you know, like I say, you know, you look at computing, oh my God. And if I went [00:07:25] to something like Nvidia I’ll be in a different league right now. But it’s a decision I made at the time. You [00:07:30] make decisions with the wisdom of the time and what’s given to you. You can’t really predict all the ways. [00:07:35] And you went to Bristol. I went to Bristol, did my dentistry in Bristol for five years, four and a half years. [00:07:40]

Payman Langroudi: What were you like?

Siamack Bagueri: Um, I was good initially I was Babylonia. I would, I wouldn’t, [00:07:45] you know, and I think I spent the first year or two pretty [00:07:50] much listening to the radio, uh, because [00:07:55] worried censors about parents. Yeah. Um, you know, dying with a Saddam [00:08:00] in the bombings. And actually, then I just I need to I need to tell you that now. [00:08:05] So imagine we’re Middlesbrough. So I’m an Iranian kid. Fees [00:08:10] are really high. Parents that were sending the money and so on. I distinctly remember [00:08:15] a couple of times ringing my dad saying, look, dad, you know, the kind of, you know, chasing me for you. Don’t worry, [00:08:20] I’ll send it to you. And then many, many years later, we’re talking 20 1718. [00:08:25] I went to Iran and then I, uh, [00:08:30] I was walking with dad round about where we used to have a house. Then he took me down a side [00:08:35] street. He said, do you recognise this street? I said, no, not really. He said, what do you what [00:08:40] do you what do you observe about the street? I said, well, there’s a lot of new builds in the streets. Well, you’re right, [00:08:45] because do you remember when you called me in the 80s, and pretty much a day or [00:08:50] so later, one of the missiles landed and completely flattened the street, [00:08:55] and I said, where were you? He said, well, I was in our house. I said, did you not did [00:09:00] you not want to leave? He said, well, I had no choice because you asked me to, you know, [00:09:05] I had to support you and your sister.

Siamack Bagueri: And then that story, I you know, every time I [00:09:10] talk about it, it brings up a lot of emotions. I tried to pass that on to my kids. [00:09:15] And I think, you know, when in times of atrocity, times [00:09:20] of difficulty, you make decisions as a human, whatever you are. And [00:09:25] we’re now in a politically, we’re going through lots of mayhem and we all have to make decisions. And that [00:09:30] made that decision. And he’s still living in his 90s. He’s living in LA. He’s he’s very happy. [00:09:35] But every time I think about those few conversations, because he didn’t really speak that much, [00:09:40] my dad and I was more writing in those days. The phone calls were impossible, but Bristol [00:09:45] very much. I was initially a bit of a loner and listening to radio. I was really worried, but then I gelled [00:09:50] in that I had a really good groups of friends. Majority were either, uh, Jordanian, [00:09:55] uh, um, the Palestinian, Malaysian of the good [00:10:00] overseas group, which I’m still friendly with. And I was in one of the houses, the other all [00:10:05] very successful. All we’re doing master’s courses as a result of me doing a three year, [00:10:10] four and a half, five year course. They were doing effectively a six year course because they’re doing the Masters. [00:10:15] So I got to know a lot of them and it was wonderful. Really. Are you like.

Payman Langroudi: A Swotty student [00:10:20] or were you a not really no animal? No, no.

Siamack Bagueri: No, I think I think what I, what I was very good at [00:10:25] is to leave things to the bitter end, but then [00:10:30] cram it. I was very good at parrot fashion learning dentistry [00:10:35] when you’re taught at school and like a lot of things, you know a lot. There’s a lot [00:10:40] of useless facts that you’re you’re given, which is totally unnecessary. They’re trying to separate [00:10:45] the men from the boys, I suppose, but learning, let’s say intricate anatomy [00:10:50] or the odd nerve that exists in 3% of the population yet [00:10:55] is exciting to be able to remember those things, but they’re utterly useless to what we’re [00:11:00] doing, what we ultimately do. But I was good at that. I was very good at anatomy. I got a prize [00:11:05] and I was good at remembering things. I think what I wasn’t very good at, I wasn’t [00:11:10] very good at chairside my chairside manner was awful, awful, awful. And [00:11:15] that’s something I. From the improved on and I’m still improving on. I was [00:11:20] punished a few times because if you have a poor chairside manner, [00:11:25] a lot of problems land on your doorstep and litigation and so on. So [00:11:30] I think we’ll touch upon that later. But I think that’s the one thing that I [00:11:35] improved on. But I wasn’t a Swot, but I was good at, I was good and I passed everything. [00:11:40] Pretty much anything I failed in my life is my driving test three times because I [00:11:45] lived in Bristol, very.

Payman Langroudi: Bad.

Siamack Bagueri: Habits, very hilly and I was awful [00:11:50] at Hill at Hill Start. But every time I would go the car would go back. Immediate fail. [00:11:55] So that’s the only thing I really failed on.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of touch on. Before we move on with [00:12:00] your career, this question of, you know, we’re kind of formed by our struggles. [00:12:05] Yes. And so you had these struggles. Yes. And you know who’s [00:12:10] paying for university? Yes, yes, yes. Worried about your parents war, all of that sort of stuff. And [00:12:15] I guess you must feel like you got some strength and it formed you. Yes. But then do you not [00:12:20] worry that your kids have had this sort of very soft, easy life [00:12:25] haven’t been formed true, by the struggles? And how do you reflect on that? [00:12:30]

Siamack Bagueri: I think I think I think what you have to what you have to do, you have to remember that [00:12:35] what we can’t keep telling our kids is that in my time was like this in [00:12:40] my this can be a very irritating to them. And you can occasionally reminisce [00:12:45] and say, look, this is what happened in our time, but I think it can fall on [00:12:50] deaf ears. Definitely. They’ve got a much more privileged life than we have, but they [00:12:55] also have a very tough time. I mean, you know, kids, my boys are both in their 20s. I [00:13:00] keep reminding them that when I was 22 or 21, I had a flat [00:13:05] in my own name, with my own hands, with my own mortgage. Now, because I’m at the time, [00:13:10] the mortgage rates were five 6%, same as today. But when I was 22, [00:13:15] property was far cheaper than today, and I was given 120% [00:13:20] mortgage by a building society.

Payman Langroudi: Which says as soon as you.

Siamack Bagueri: Qualified. Yeah, pretty much a [00:13:25] hero. So I so so so and then with the, with the vocational training income [00:13:30] that I had pretty much I was a third of my income was mortgage, which is very [00:13:35] plausible. Surely after the interest rates went 13, 14% then obviously [00:13:40] there was a lot of headache. Took me ten years to come out of negative equity. But now fast [00:13:45] forward to our kids. Yes, they had a privileged life. For sure they do. But [00:13:50] you know, very, very few of them are able by themselves to [00:13:55] get on the property ladder. It’s just not possible. Yeah. Even the ones who do in dentistry, even if they’re [00:14:00] really good and earning £150,000, which are very few, do you [00:14:05] can’t really you can’t really buy anything you can’t rate.

Payman Langroudi: They’ve got their own challenges.

Siamack Bagueri: They’ve got their own challenges. [00:14:10] I think I think what you what is good to remember is because my dad would have [00:14:15] his own, his his siblings were nowhere near as successful as he was. I listened to [00:14:20] him. Obviously I’ve listened to him and I’ve seen his trials and tribulations. I think [00:14:25] there’s there’s generational oscillation. I would say [00:14:30] all the generations are oscillating, and during those oscillations we become what we [00:14:35] become. So my boy is a kind of a reflection of my dad oscillating [00:14:40] via me, because each of us have got separate, you know, and then nothing [00:14:45] is exactly the same. But then, okay, if we.

Payman Langroudi: Were going to distil that down to lessons, [00:14:50] would you say the lessons are the same but the circumstances are different? Yeah, I would say so.

Siamack Bagueri: I think [00:14:55] the.

Payman Langroudi: Lesson did you learn from your dad?

Siamack Bagueri: I think what I learned, I think what I learned from my dad, which [00:15:00] I definitely passed on. I would say, don’t dote [00:15:05] on your failure, and then don’t gloat on your success, [00:15:10] because both those things you can, you know you can, you [00:15:15] can, um, you can grieve when something goes wrong and you can celebrate [00:15:20] when it goes well. But you mustn’t make either of those events too long. Uh, and I [00:15:25] always, with both the boys, are loving football. And I say, look, often what happens if a, if a, you [00:15:30] know, footballer misses a penalty or if he scores a superb free kick? Both [00:15:35] those celebrations all commiserate are very short lived because he’s got to go back to job at hand. [00:15:40] It’s good to have that. I think that’s one thing my dad was very good at was to not allow [00:15:45] failure to depress him, admit there was, admit something disastrous has [00:15:50] happened. But you’ve got to get up and say, you know something. It is what it is. [00:15:55] I am where I am. I’ve got to keep going. And you know, and then and [00:16:00] not pat yourself too much on the back either. Uh, have the occasional, you know, [00:16:05] um, have the occasional sweet in life. But really, I think that’s what I’m trying [00:16:10] to instil in them. Uh, but boys or kids, you can’t over lecture them. [00:16:15] So you have to bring when you. When I’m talking to my boys, I often do that when we go into a football match. [00:16:20] I try to bring it into line. And when they goof up and they have [00:16:25] messed up a lot, I don’t really, I don’t sometimes I do, but I [00:16:30] try not to amplify it. But then when the time comes, I say, look, you know, you’re mentally really [00:16:35] messed up.

Siamack Bagueri: Just you got to just get over it because worst could happen. Just [00:16:40] get home with it and then get up. Um, and I distinctly remember, like two years [00:16:45] ago, my son was going a really, really bad stage. And my [00:16:50] wife is much, probably much, much, uh, more disciplined than I am. [00:16:55] And my son was going to throw the towel in and saying, look, I want to take a year out because I think I’m going to manage [00:17:00] this course. What was I studying? It was studying philosophy at King’s, and his brother [00:17:05] had done the same at Oxford. He did very well. He’s always like in the shadow of his older brother. So my, [00:17:10] my wife basically, you know, blew a gasket, said, there’s no way you’re going to throw [00:17:15] the towel in because you’re being ridiculous, you know? And as it happens, after much [00:17:20] persuasion and screaming and shouting, he did. And he got it first. So, you know, I think occasional [00:17:25] what we call uh, and we occasionally scream and we [00:17:30] so and sometimes we tear up. So I think that’s really my modus operandi when it comes [00:17:35] to kids and myself as well, because, you know, it’s been a really tough time, I think, of [00:17:40] late for all of us and for me anyway, I’m almost 60 next April, and it’s been [00:17:45] a really, really tough couple of years. And I don’t, you know, sometimes I’m thinking to myself, [00:17:50] am I going to survive this? You know, when my in my 40s, I really thought, My God, [00:17:55] I can actually stop working now. But now at the age of 60, I’m working. So, you know, it’s [00:18:00] one of those things, you know, I think you have to, uh, so.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s kind of kind of on that subject, let’s [00:18:05] fast forward a little bit. Yeah. Go on. What would you say is the difference between the vast majority [00:18:10] of us dentists and orthodontists will have one practice and kind [00:18:15] of try and perfect that one. And then there’s the odd enigma, like you and [00:18:20] several others, though, who go to two, go to three, go to four, go to five, go to [00:18:25] what’s the what’s the mindset. And by the way, there’s no there’s no [00:18:30] saying one’s better than the other. Not sure. But what’s the mindset, the difference between [00:18:35] those two.

Siamack Bagueri: Yeah, I like it. The first of all I think one is, is really boils down to [00:18:40] in in orthodontics I would say. And when you [00:18:45] are dealing with the funder, the funder is NHS. So in our case 70% [00:18:50] of our income is NHS. The mandate is very clear. So [00:18:55] and so getting from A to B or A to Z in an NHS scenario is [00:19:00] not that difficult to deliver. And now, with the advent of orthodontic [00:19:05] therapy, remote monitoring and a lot of the host of stuff [00:19:10] that tech has allowed us to do, you don’t really need to be hands on [00:19:15] anymore, as long as you’ve got people doing it for you and you’re liable, you’re [00:19:20] vicariously liable. You’re they’ve got corporate liability for that work. So I think in our [00:19:25] case, I would say significant amount of NHS orthodontics need [00:19:30] not be done by specialists, can be prescribed and diagnosed by [00:19:35] specialists, can be occasionally intervened by specialists. But a lot [00:19:40] of the episodes can be done by a therapist. Same. The same realm is happening [00:19:45] now in in medicine, when it comes to prescription, you don’t need to see a GP to [00:19:50] be prescribed antibiotic for, you know, for a cold, you know, pharmacies [00:19:55] now getting prescription, uh, licenses. So so I.

Payman Langroudi: Think you could [00:20:00] have all of that happening in one chapter.

Siamack Bagueri: You can. But and that’s.

Payman Langroudi: What most people do, right? I mean, [00:20:05] I both my kids went through author. Yes. And both there were two different orthodontists. Both of them had one [00:20:10] practice. Yes. But this notion of two three. Yeah. Reinvest risk. [00:20:15] Yeah.

Siamack Bagueri: I think I think what it comes to, there’s a commerciality side of it which [00:20:20] attracts me. Um, I’ve always been one to always be one to dive [00:20:25] and then learn to swim. I’m not one. I’m not one to perfect swimming before diving. [00:20:30] Even when I started skiing when I was six and I would go off piste, I had no [00:20:35] idea that what will be ahead. But that risk, that element of risk, [00:20:40] always enthused me, I think. And yeah, of course there’s a, there’s a, there’s a reward, there’s [00:20:45] a commercial reward to it. And there’s been a lot of failures as well. [00:20:50] But I think what are your.

Payman Langroudi: Parameters regarding risk? I find risk really interesting because yeah, you know, the [00:20:55] some people will say some entrepreneurs will say I’ll. Ever risk the business? Yes. [00:21:00] On an idea. Yeah, yeah. But let’s imagine, you know, you’ve got a great [00:21:05] idea. Then it’s worth risking the business. I mean, like Elon Musk risk. So. [00:21:10] So how do you see risk. You know, the risk return equation. Yeah [00:21:15] I would say quite low risk. Or would you say you’re I’m definitely.

Siamack Bagueri: I’m definitely medium to high risk. I remember [00:21:20] one of the first principles I worked for Anthony Phillips Jewish guy. I think [00:21:25] probably he’s dead now. His thing was he said to me, if you [00:21:30] can persuade a lender to lend to you, you’d be silly to say no. [00:21:35] And as long as you can convince the other individual, the case [00:21:40] is good to invest in you, and there’ll be an interest rate or a partnership [00:21:45] or whatever it may be. You’d be silly not to say yes to it. So in [00:21:50] this day and age of leverage, you know, you know, I am leveraged. Of course I’m leveraged. I am [00:21:55] one to say that. Look, I keep taking the risk. And during the past 35 [00:22:00] years of my career, I’ve done a lot of good. I’ve failed a few times, [00:22:05] I’ve sold a few practices. Now I’m embedded into, you know, ten solid [00:22:10] practices that all being well, as long as we meet the KPIs, the contracts will [00:22:15] renew. And it’s a nice little business bringing in, you know, bringing us healthy revenue per annum [00:22:20] run by specialists under whom we’ve got the therapist and the ancillary [00:22:25] staff. So the system really, really works. So I. [00:22:30] And so those those.

Payman Langroudi: Where I’m going with it is, you know, there’s another [00:22:35] individual who might be sitting here saying, I want 300 of these beds. Yes. [00:22:40] Yeah. And that might be you. Yes. Or it might have been you 20 years ago or whatever. And, you [00:22:45] know, that cat might have risked all ten of them. That’s right. To get to 30. That’s right. Or whatever [00:22:50] it is. So, you know, how does it stop at ten. Yeah. Well, [00:22:55] how did it get to ten? And have you had moments in your career where you’ve risked the [00:23:00] whole company on a.

Siamack Bagueri: No, definitely not. I think first of all, when you’re talking about a corporate structure [00:23:05] or I’ve known people who’ve gone, you know, gone from 10 to 100 and. [00:23:10] Definitely. I think there’s there’s a critical number [00:23:15] whereby beyond that the personal touch is lost. [00:23:20] So I know pretty much now with the advent of WhatsApp groups and so on, pretty [00:23:25] much I know that 60 people that work for us, you know, ancillary stuff, I [00:23:30] know where they are, roughly know their birthdays or birthdays. Everybody knows where their birth is.

Payman Langroudi: Is it 60? Not [00:23:35] including the orthodontics.

Siamack Bagueri: Not including so. So pretty much the ancillary staff. If you like the window [00:23:40] of the practices who are running the show. Yeah, we know them. I know them especially knows the ones [00:23:45] in London. I know the ones outside London. We have a personal touch with them. You know, I may [00:23:50] have a, you know, a few of them. I joke with them with their dogs or I know where they’re going through [00:23:55] a hassle if they’re going through divorce or pregnancy, whatever it may be. So I think when it comes [00:24:00] beyond ten, I think you kind of start losing that. Then [00:24:05] you have to have regional managers. Yeah. And then you are then, then when you go to, you know, dealing [00:24:10] with private equity, let’s say, let’s say Portman or such, like you’re then really are answerable [00:24:15] to an investor, to a shareholder at that point in time, [00:24:20] really you start you are tempted to cut corners. So perhaps [00:24:25] you’re tempted not to employ fully, you know, fully qualified specialists, [00:24:30] you know, tended not to use the best materials, plus.

Payman Langroudi: Someone else sometimes calling the shots. [00:24:35] Yeah. And then right then you become.

Siamack Bagueri: A little bit, you know, you think to yourself and, and the reason why [00:24:40] I know that because I started working for a corporate structure so many years ago. If I ran [00:24:45] the corner from here, there was a there’s a company called White Cross, I remember. So so I was the [00:24:50] first one to work in the practice in Kentish Town. And in fact, I learnt a lot [00:24:55] from the chap who started White Cross Avenue as a ex-mossad [00:25:00] guy, accountants, super bright, super, super bright. And when they [00:25:05] sold to Idi at the time, and I’ve never loved [00:25:10] the practice, Abner had about had five practices. I pretty much started three of them. [00:25:15] I started the one in Holloway Road here and also in Paddington Street, and when they [00:25:20] sold the idea and I’d came over and took over. In a nutshell, Abner [00:25:25] jumped in front of the tube and ended his life. So because he hated the fact that someone’s [00:25:30] come over a regional managers come over and taken over and it’s a story that you can read. Wow. [00:25:35] Um, so that was the one lesson for me back in the early 90s [00:25:40] that I don’t want to go down the corporate route. A lot of my [00:25:45] friends have sold to corporates. Corporates been on my doorstep umpteen times, [00:25:50] but I’ve always shied away from it because I think to myself. I [00:25:55] was speaking to our private bank. The bank called the whole bank the whole based [00:26:00] in Fleet Street.

Siamack Bagueri: Now they have 350 year [00:26:05] history. Eight partners, all whores. Pardon the pun. All [00:26:10] whores. And they’ve got 6 billion. And they. They [00:26:15] just lend 2 billion. They don’t. They’re family. And that’s the sort of legacy that I want [00:26:20] for my practice. And I think I definitely have got there now, you know, [00:26:25] because I really love the people that work with us from head of department [00:26:30] or professor at guy’s or dean of the faculty of Royal College. You know, these guys [00:26:35] are highly, highly respected. They’ve stayed with us for 25 years. I love [00:26:40] it, you know, it’s just incredible. You know, I’ve got a patient who was ten, 25 [00:26:45] years ago and she’s now working for us. She’s a fully qualified orthodontist. Ariane, [00:26:50] who you may know. Oh, so. So I was treating her when she was ten. Her sister [00:26:55] was nine, you know, and both of them become incredible dentists, the Dental sisters. [00:27:00] You probably can see them on Instagram. Yeah, I’ve had them on so so so so, so having them, [00:27:05] you know that. That’s what I mean. Loads of people have gone through our practice have either become [00:27:10] nurses, therapists, dentists and a few of them become orthodontists. So I think that’s [00:27:15] a few of them have gone on to max facts. So I think that’s quite nice. And you can’t because [00:27:20] the currency of success is not purely financial.

Siamack Bagueri: The currency is you want to sit down and [00:27:25] talk about characters like Ariane and say, you know something? Ariane was little and look [00:27:30] where she is now. And then we kind of were in the journey. At some stage. We infused [00:27:35] that into the whole concept of dentistry. Both three of my nieces [00:27:40] and nephews, you know, since the age of zero, they’ve been with us. They’ve all done dentistry. Two of them [00:27:45] have become orthodontists. So that currency, I get really excited when I think, [00:27:50] my God, this kid was, you know, one, they’re now 28 [00:27:55] and he’s an orthodontist. It’s incredible. I think, my God, we must have done something right. So I [00:28:00] think I think when it comes to not expand, there’s I think the critical number [00:28:05] beyond which you lose the personal touch. And once you lost that personal touch, your [00:28:10] answerable to another person. Right now, I’m answerable to the bank. I’m not answerable to any partner, to [00:28:15] any private equity, to any shareholder who’s sitting on my head saying, you’ve got to [00:28:20] give this certain profit. I can dip and dip into our finances [00:28:25] in and out. I can take the risks. I’m answerable to myself and I’m not really answerable [00:28:30] to anybody else. I don’t need to divulge too much to the lender, you know, [00:28:35] uh, whereas the private equity going to be extremely transparent. And that [00:28:40] would be very restrictive for my mindset, I think.

Payman Langroudi: So then you’ve said all these nieces [00:28:45] and nephews went and became orthodontist. Did you did your kids never show an interest? No. [00:28:50]

Siamack Bagueri: It’s interesting that I the boys didn’t because the boys at when they were in when [00:28:55] I was in school, they both loved humanities, they loved history and politics. [00:29:00] But interestingly, I think both will end up being involved because the older one is [00:29:05] now gone into safety of AI, ethics of AI. And I think in some form or fashion, he’ll be involved. [00:29:10] The middle boy has been very much involved in management of the practice, and he [00:29:15] is going to do consultant management, probably in in London business school or maybe [00:29:20] you or Imperial. I think when he comes out and he’s worked [00:29:25] in a good firm and he’s learnt the ropes, I would love him to manage [00:29:30] the practices because I’m very much managing it anyway now.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So what’s the org chart [00:29:35] now? You’ve got you and Perry.

Siamack Bagueri: So, so basically yes. So basically the so each [00:29:40] practice has got. If you are on site. [00:29:45] Manager or nurse. Practice each practice. Got one? Yeah. Uh, and [00:29:50] then that individual could be the one who does the ordering and does a rota management [00:29:55] and so on. So. And then each few of them have got a head. [00:30:00] Who organises that. We’ve got an ordering form, let’s say on [00:30:05] a WhatsApp group. We’re going to Rota manager who manages for practices. So depending on [00:30:10] where they are. So Kent let’s say we have two practices that’s going to there’s a there’s an ecosystem [00:30:15] in Kent whereby they deal with their own laboratory, with their own staff, with their own Audrey. [00:30:20] But what we’ve done, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve I’ve, I’ve delegated various things [00:30:25] to various managers to make them, not to make them important, but are delegated [00:30:30] them so they have net worth. So they’re really realise that they see progression. Yeah, [00:30:35] they can see that. You know, that individual one, one girl, for example, was desperate to do therapy. She [00:30:40] was probably in her late 40s and I thought, hmm, she’s probably a bit too old to start in therapy, but [00:30:45] I need to keep her. I need to do something that she needs. She feels worth it. Okay, [00:30:50] now you deal. Now you’re. I said you’re too. You’re too clever to do [00:30:55] this. But you’re really good at this, you know, and I’m put you on a better hourly rate, [00:31:00] and you deal with running 20 people. And then. But there’s one individual [00:31:05] who runs the whole, you know, if you like. She’s, she does all our payments. So [00:31:10] she’s the one with the key card for all our practices. So all sort of, you know, all [00:31:15] roads lead to her when I, when they come to pay people or when there’s often a [00:31:20] sort of a dispute they can’t handle, uh, HR problem, then you’re gonna.

Payman Langroudi: Have to give me hope.

Siamack Bagueri: Yeah. So she she’s [00:31:25] she’s been with she’s been with me now since 92. Um, and so how much.

Payman Langroudi: Autonomy [00:31:30] did the managers have? I mean, do they, can they hire and fire?

[TRANSITION]: Uh.

Siamack Bagueri: Pretty much [00:31:35] I would say no. I would say when it comes to the London [00:31:40] practices, pretty much clear. And parental carita would be the one, you know, [00:31:45] talking to them, disciplining them or discussing with them. I think, uh, [00:31:50] when it comes to the, the, the legal aspects of it, we use a company called [00:31:55] Peninsula you may have heard of, but even in my opinion, they’re quite useless. But [00:32:00] they, they they’ve got a narrative which we’ve plagiarised. We use their narrative [00:32:05] and we know the rules. The our accountants very much know the employment [00:32:10] rules. We’re now shying away more and more from employing people long term, [00:32:15] post-Brexit. Very much. I think significant portion of our workforce [00:32:20] is done through locums and temp agencies. Uh, I think the gig economy is [00:32:25] very much discouraging people from becoming long term employees. A lot [00:32:30] of our home-grown nurses who, uh, if you like the white girls, for want of [00:32:35] a better word, they they just don’t want to work more than 20 hours, because if they do anything more than [00:32:40] 20, they will not get the benefits that, you know, they will get housing or child or whatever. [00:32:45] So we’ve got and then we’ve got the other girls who really good. Some of them are Eastern European [00:32:50] and they come to us as temps. There was a time we would offer [00:32:55] them a full time job, but these days they don’t want it. They want to work 3 or 4 [00:33:00] days. They don’t. They’re not particularly bothered about annual leave or bank [00:33:05] holidays.

Siamack Bagueri: What what entices them is the gig economy. [00:33:10] They can they can dip in and out of it. Uh, they’re getting a relatively good salary from [00:33:15] the temping agency. Temp agency charges quite a bit. And I think that’s [00:33:20] the way workforce is going. People are shying away from employing people long [00:33:25] term much more into albeit the outside practice is a much [00:33:30] more stable in London, we find is much more temp agencies. [00:33:35] Recruitment is a very big headache. It’s been exacerbated post Brexit [00:33:40] but really is a difficult problem. And even if the ones that want [00:33:45] to be long term, they all want to become therapists and you can’t make everybody therapist. So [00:33:50] every time somebody wants to go on therapy, whilst you whilst you celebrate, you kind [00:33:55] of losing a good nurse as well. Yeah. And you can’t pay a good nurse. So there’s a sell by [00:34:00] date with some of these good nurses. You can’t give them more than X amount per hour because [00:34:05] it becomes it becomes economically not tenable. So um, but I think, [00:34:10] I think going back to your. How he’s managing ultimately now, [00:34:15] with the advent of computers in Texas on and lots of it is done on my phone, Dropbox [00:34:20] and phone is just incredible. So I’m very quick at navigating between practices [00:34:25] and jumping onto the local Dental software. We use different Dental softwares. I [00:34:30] know the individual managers quite well. Uh, let’s say one of them is their Scouser, so I follow football with [00:34:35] her.

Siamack Bagueri: So with bantering all the time, one of them is Italian and one of them is [00:34:40] South African. So I kind of know the nuances and I’m not. How do I say I’m not pretending [00:34:45] I actually do like it. And when it comes to football banter, I do love talking to about football. [00:34:50] She’s very knowledgeable. So I just I think what Britain are good at is that [00:34:55] once a member of staff, we grab them in terms of them [00:35:00] as a character, we really enjoy being with them. You know, we don’t if we take them out for lunch, [00:35:05] it’s not because we’re saying, are we taking them out for lunch so they can work harder is genuinely we [00:35:10] actually enjoy being with them. And then the offshoot is that okay? Then we’re buying them some some loyalty. [00:35:15] Not always. I mean, we’re taking people out for lunch and they haven’t been loyal to us. [00:35:20] So, uh, we’ve had we’ve had our hands burnt there. But but I think, you know, right now we’ve got [00:35:25] a nucleus of staff that are would really swear on. I mean, there’s a few of them that [00:35:30] are really would really swear that they are loyal. And a few of them have said [00:35:35] we will not retire until you retire. A few of them said to me, Mike, if you sell to any corporate, we’re [00:35:40] out of there because I’ve heard what’s happened to their friends. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So so that’s [00:35:45] sort of the operation side. What about the clinical side? I mean, what’s a good orthodontist [00:35:50] for you? I mean, when you’re hiring someone. Yeah, I suppose the. [00:35:55]

Siamack Bagueri: Good especially is like, you know, they’re going to be going through it. They’re going to be on the specialist register. [00:36:00] Yeah. Yeah. So and then once they’ve done that I think. Majority [00:36:05] of specialists have gone through the mainstream orthodontics. Okay. [00:36:10] So very much the fixed appliances and that’s what the NHS is paying. They’re not paying [00:36:15] for aligners or anything, anything outside the outside the ordinary. So [00:36:20] few of them do do things slightly differently. [00:36:25] And I do allow some clinical freedom. You know we mentioned Ariane. Ariane [00:36:30] is very much into you know, she’s spreading her wings. She’s doing different things. But I’ve got [00:36:35] to remember she’s a lot younger than I and they’ve got aspirations [00:36:40] and things are moving extremely quickly when it comes to functional dentistry, when it comes [00:36:45] to aligner technology, when it comes to collaboration with general dentistry, [00:36:50] one mustn’t poo poo it, you know? You know, orthodontics in the [00:36:55] adult has very much now become the forte of general dentist because Invisalign [00:37:00] has kind of hijacked. It, has empowered the dentist to do minor cases. [00:37:05] And a lot of dentists now do those either in-house orthodontists or they do it themselves, [00:37:10] and they normally piggyback that on top with veneers and composite [00:37:15] build ups. So I, I think then orthodontics for adults has changed and [00:37:20] you have to allow it to develop and evolve. Currently with NHS [00:37:25] it’s very binary. They only pay for certain things and so [00:37:30] be it. And it pays. It pays okay. So so when it comes to specialists, I do like [00:37:35] people to be mainstream. I would like that. And even if they’re not [00:37:40] mainstream, I think the funder being the NHS forces them to be mainstream, [00:37:45] because anything you do outside the ordinary is not going to be remunerated so [00:37:50] that the system is telling them this is what you should do now, within that, they obviously [00:37:55] everyone does their private work and what they do is up to them, really what they do. I mean, [00:38:00] I’m probably the only only one in the group of practices that do lingual orthodontics, [00:38:05] and I’ve done it for years.

Payman Langroudi: Why do you still practice?

Siamack Bagueri: But no, I now I’m [00:38:10] slowing down completely because as of, uh, as of, I don’t know, middle of June, [00:38:15] I’m going cutting down to two days a week. So Mondays. Um, but why? I [00:38:20] think I do like the intellectual stimuli I love. You could get intellectual stimulation. [00:38:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, you could look into I, I.

Siamack Bagueri: Know, I know, I.

Payman Langroudi: Lingual, backbreaking [00:38:30] work.

Siamack Bagueri: Yeah. I’ve pretty much stopped lingual. Now I don’t do it anymore, to be honest. I [00:38:35] tell you I tell you a couple of examples of.

Payman Langroudi: Is there some sort of you’ve got to you’ve [00:38:40] got to keep your hand in in order to have credibility with your. No, no, with your orthodontics. Yeah. I [00:38:45] think.

Siamack Bagueri: I think in order because the, because the therapists are working [00:38:50] under you. So really the patients are your patients. [00:38:55] You’re getting them to see. Now you’re paying the therapist [00:39:00] an hourly rate to see those patients. You cannot let them do the whole work without [00:39:05] you observing it. And there are certain scenarios. There are certain episodes [00:39:10] in treatment that need intervention. You need intervention because [00:39:15] if the therapist has put the wrong wire in and the truth potentially, why [00:39:20] you.

Payman Langroudi: Why not an orthodontist? Yeah, but.

Siamack Bagueri: Because the orthodontist are expensive. So so therefore what [00:39:25] you do is that. So let’s imagine a case. It’s eight months into treatment [00:39:30] and the therapist is saying, look, such and such thing is happening. Okay. And [00:39:35] then I would say to him, okay, either if I’m there, I’m consulting and I say, let’s [00:39:40] have a look, or I will say to do a 3D scan on Itero or whichever product [00:39:45] you’ve got, and I’ll look at it and I’ll remotely tell them what to do. So really wet finger dentistry [00:39:50] I’m doing less and less and less. So from middle of June I’m going to do one day a week, really [00:39:55] private cases. I’m kind of running out because I’m hoping by the age of 60 I will still [00:40:00] have remote monitoring responsibility because ultimately the patients are under my duress, [00:40:05] the cases that I’m treating. And if I was to get somebody else to do [00:40:10] it, of course I’m going to remunerate them then that’s quite interesting. Then it becomes it becomes not.

Payman Langroudi: No [00:40:15] one day wet handed or two days wet handed dentistry. How many patients [00:40:20] are under your under your care with all of these.

Siamack Bagueri: So I would say I would say [00:40:25] the way to work it out is that how many cases can I start [00:40:30] by remote by remote work or [00:40:35] physically being there, seeing the patient let’s say, and then prescribing it. So I would [00:40:40] say per annum I could probably start about a thousand. Wow. Start [00:40:45] a thousand. Right. That’s the start of that. So that’s the if I can start a [00:40:50] thousand and I’ve got, let’s say eight therapists running the show for me, I still need to monitor [00:40:55] it, you know.

Payman Langroudi: And are the other orthodontists using therapists as well.

Siamack Bagueri: And some of them [00:41:00] are. Let me just quickly check to make sure, because often what they do, uh, some of them are [00:41:05] some of them would like to do themselves because therapists cost money. So the senior [00:41:10] the senior associates do do do use them. But [00:41:15] it’s a it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s financially very you know negative [00:41:20] for them. So the younger associates like you know some [00:41:25] of the young they don’t they do themselves because they’re younger. They want to do it themselves. They want to change the wires [00:41:30] and so on and so forth. The older ones who’ve now got quite a lot of the contract, it’s quite sizeable. [00:41:35] It’s just not physically plausible for them to do it. So I think there’s [00:41:40] a natural progression. As they get older, they get tired, they get they’re not as quick as what [00:41:45] they were. And they can kind of say, okay, I can forego, I can relinquish the percentage of my income [00:41:50] and I will let the therapist to do it. But I could then use my time to perhaps [00:41:55] sell Invisalign or aligners or whatever it is they’re selling. So I think having [00:42:00] therapists has been a complete lifeline for us. I certainly couldn’t have managed some [00:42:05] of the contracts that we’ve got without the help of therapists. And also the extended role [00:42:10] of dental nurses in our dental nurses are fully on board the Tcos, [00:42:15] uh, treatment coordinators, they do all the 3D scanning, they do all the [00:42:20] X-rays on the prescription, they do all the photography and all the oral hygiene instruction. [00:42:25] They do all the post retainer or post appliance education. They [00:42:30] do all the triads. So every case we’ve got a WhatsApp phone, [00:42:35] either on the phone or on the computer. So the patients are in touch with the nurses constantly [00:42:40] for triaging. So I would say 60% of those [00:42:45] tragedies are dealt with by the nurse and the nurses on 12, 15, 16 point [00:42:50] an hour before they even walk into the practice. So they and just [00:42:55] the fact that he’s got that ability to discuss it with somebody on a WhatsApp [00:43:00] on a per second basis is a really is a one.

Payman Langroudi: Way using the Dental monitoring. [00:43:05]

Siamack Bagueri: I’m not using the other monitoring because I they’ve been they’ve been on my back for many, [00:43:10] many years now. The reason why I haven’t used dental monitoring is the following. [00:43:15] Dental monitoring, as for some of you may know, involves a little [00:43:20] gadget that you put on the phone and you put it in the mouth and they will just measure where you are. Now, when [00:43:25] it comes to NHS orthodontics, it really isn’t financially [00:43:30] tenable because you’ve got to pay. For that [00:43:35] gadget. Obviously you’re paying a monthly fee, which is fine. And then if [00:43:40] something is broken per se and the AI of Dental [00:43:45] monitoring picks it up, that base is going to come in anyway. So that element [00:43:50] already is being done by human in our practice. So the nurses, like [00:43:55] the nurses have got during that week, they’ve got a very nice if you like. The remit is not just [00:44:00] nursing. So Dental nurse could be on one day on record taking, [00:44:05] which means they don’t come across any doctor. Their job is purely record taking. [00:44:10] There’ll be another day they’ll be triaging. They’ll be basically walking around with the WhatsApp phone and dealing [00:44:15] with patients, and there’ll be three days. Maybe they’re working 1 to 1 with patients, with doctors. [00:44:20] So it’s a nice journey for them now. And I think on [00:44:25] the patient side, they always prefer to speak to a Dental nurse than a receptionist [00:44:30] because the receptionist skill set is limited. So therefore and they’ve got access. [00:44:35] So I’m kind of thinking, would they prefer speaking to an AI than [00:44:40] a dental nurse? Of course, attentiveness to Dental knows exactly. What’s that knowledge was there when he put the [00:44:45] braces on. So had they got very good understanding of what’s going on. And when it comes to, let’s [00:44:50] say, the other stuff.

Payman Langroudi: We use it for private.

Siamack Bagueri: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Always dental monitoring. [00:44:55]

Siamack Bagueri: No, I don’t know. Now for dental monitoring again privately when it comes to aligner [00:45:00] treatment. Yeah. Now I know people like Clare Nightingale use it and few people use it. I [00:45:05] am not a massive aligner user, right? I do do aligners. We [00:45:10] do our own. A lot of people use Invisalign in our practice, but again. If [00:45:15] you were to give, let’s say, I don’t know, 20 aligners to an individual [00:45:20] and you say, right, I’m going to monitor you remotely. We now know that [00:45:25] is a wrong thing to do, right? We now know that the eye that that [00:45:30] prescribed those 20 aligners in an Invisalign setting is [00:45:35] totally biologically just not correct, because teeth [00:45:40] are not set in an articulator in a wax. Contrary to popular belief, [00:45:45] and often with Clincheck and Invisalign, it leads you to believe that, in fact, the [00:45:50] pair of dental arches are a wax model, and in fact, it is not the case because you’ve got [00:45:55] so much other, uh, you know, anatomy going around muscles, compliance, [00:46:00] goodness knows what. So what we do, in any event, [00:46:05] are aligner protocols. Very much five 4 to 5 [00:46:10] aligners come back and we rescan you for the next set of aligners. We’re [00:46:15] not one to say, here it is. I see you in six months time. Pay [00:46:20] on your way out. We’re not that way at all. Therefore, remote monitoring locks.

Payman Langroudi: Do do [00:46:25] that though, right?

Siamack Bagueri: A lot do that incorrectly. So those remote monitoring it [00:46:30] is akin to what happened to Smiledirect. So what happens is Smiledirect they [00:46:35] send the scan them, they send them excellent number of aligners. They gave [00:46:40] them even interproximal reduction for the patient to do it themselves. The reason why I know this, because I see the patients [00:46:45] now who’ve now the 63,000 patients with smile director Linus, who [00:46:50] don’t know where to go. I’ve seen a few of them and I know exactly what Smiledirect do. Remote [00:46:55] monitoring does not work because teeth are not. [00:47:00] Enamel set in wax.

Payman Langroudi: Let me let me tell you my experience.

Siamack Bagueri: So I would I [00:47:05] would definitely see them regularly.

Payman Langroudi: Let me tell you my experience. My son [00:47:10] had the fixed appliance with a traditional orthodontist. [00:47:15] Well, he was kind of facially driven, and I want to I want to get to that, actually. [00:47:20] That’s interesting. My daughter had aligners and dental monitoring and, [00:47:25] um, from the patient perspective that if you if you set it aside from I [00:47:30] know what’s going on, but as a patient.

Siamack Bagueri: The better.

Payman Langroudi: Much [00:47:35] better. I mean, I didn’t have to go to Harley Street every. That’s right. Four weeks. That’s right. Hey, [00:47:40] in congestion charge, people sit there for him to move things around. Now. Okay, [00:47:45] maybe my daughter’s outcomes not going to be as good as my son’s, I don’t know. Yeah, my wife, who’s dentist, [00:47:50] kinda felt shortchanged by dental monitoring. Insomuch as, you know, [00:47:55] we only went three, four times. She’s well into her treatment. But I was trying to explain [00:48:00] to my wife that, you know, we see it hourly rate thing. Um, but from a patient [00:48:05] perspective. Well, if you can make it much better.

Siamack Bagueri: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Make it easier, but but then from a business perspective, [00:48:10] if you can pull off a complete treatment in 4 or 5 visits.

Siamack Bagueri: With [00:48:15] that, with that, with that. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So now it’s the only challenge is how many patients can you get. [00:48:20] That’s right. Yeah. Of course in a in a private setting if that’s all marketing and word of mouth and all [00:48:25] of that jazz. Right. Yeah. But from a business perspective it’s extraordinary, I [00:48:30] think.

Siamack Bagueri: I mean, I think you can treat.

Payman Langroudi: Five, six times a number of patients.

Siamack Bagueri: Right? I think that’s why there’s that. That’s why [00:48:35] if you think about the evolution of aligner technology, which started with Invisalign, [00:48:40] then went on to, you know, small, direct, bright me and then they’ve gone [00:48:45] south. Now we’ve got remote monitoring. We’ve got friends of mine [00:48:50] who used to be in Total orthodontics. They’re now bought out by Bupa. They’ve [00:48:55] set up their own monitoring, if you like, specialists who are sitting there looking [00:49:00] at at the 3D models, planning it for the specialists, planning it for the dentists. [00:49:05] It’s almost like having saying, okay, we’re going to do the scan, but rather [00:49:10] than doing clincheck, which we know is through an eye, we’d rather send it to a specialist like [00:49:15] Mark and he will say, okay, do this. The other do five aligners so the person’s [00:49:20] holding hands. I think there’s definitely if aligners. If aligners [00:49:25] can be used for minor to mild to moderate cases, fantastic. [00:49:30] I would agree with you. But there’s plenty of evidence out there that [00:49:35] aligners don’t always succeed in moderate to severe cases, because the [00:49:40] way the Invisalign I blame Invisalign in some ways promises the [00:49:45] dentist that you can do much more than you really can. And then there’s.

Payman Langroudi: All that stuff about [00:49:50] not using the clincheck and not using correcting.

Siamack Bagueri: And then so on, and then you get a recession [00:49:55] and so on. So I think you need to have in order to have a successful [00:50:00] practice, you can’t just give somebody I mean, a lot [00:50:05] of remote monitoring, let’s say with attachments or oral hygiene and so on, is communicating [00:50:10] with the patient regularly. Now, there’s nothing wrong with saying [00:50:15] that, which I do that myself anyway. I have zoom meetings with patients or I FaceTime [00:50:20] them if they’re abroad. If I’m confident that they can wear the aligners, [00:50:25] I will definitely say, look, here’s ten, uh, let’s speak in three weeks time. But [00:50:30] I think patients will feel upset if you don’t put that half an hour aside [00:50:35] to talk to them and they will feel short changed. And why am I paying for AI [00:50:40] and why is he charging me X amount when I can go to smiledirect that charge me two grand? [00:50:45] Why is he charging me six? So I think there is that element that if you are and if orthodontists [00:50:50] privately were that busy that they couldn’t [00:50:55] time have time to scratch their heads, then yes. But the truth of the matter is [00:51:00] they’re not that busy. I can tell you that because I work in the West End, very few private [00:51:05] orthodontists are so busy that I’ve got zero time to sort of, you know, see somebody. [00:51:10] So I think, I think if somebody’s paying you a few thousand pounds is nice to see them [00:51:15] every 6 to 8 weeks, even if it means remotely seeing them rather than an AI. [00:51:20] So I’m kind of Dental monitoring have been on my back for the past year and a half. I’d have a look [00:51:25] I haven’t looked because I know.

Payman Langroudi: You’re a businessman from the from the business perspective, it’s just amazing. Yeah, it’s [00:51:30] a beautiful thing. Yeah. And I want to get to. So we took our kid for an author assessment. [00:51:35] We’re both dentists. And yet in that moment when [00:51:40] the guy started talking about your child’s face. Yes, we turned into patients. [00:51:45] And basically I was like, take my money. Whatever, whatever it is, have [00:51:50] it. And, you know, the psychology of what you’re going to, what [00:51:55] giving your child a brace is. Yes. Yeah. I would encourage all of them just to mention the [00:52:00] face.

Siamack Bagueri: Yes, sure.

Payman Langroudi: Because as soon as you said face, I was like, here’s my son.

Siamack Bagueri: That’s right, that’s right, [00:52:05] that’s right. Now I think we take extra photographs and I often look [00:52:10] at the person’s profile. Yeah. And I will speak to them [00:52:15] to the patient. And I say, look, you know, in your in your child’s case, if, for example, [00:52:20] we were to remove teeth, it will not be very and I’ve got loads of, you know, [00:52:25] uh, computer imagery which shows these cases, [00:52:30] previous cases and some cartoons saying what could happen. And then I do a lot [00:52:35] of therapeutic diagnosis, which basically means you start the treatment without taking [00:52:40] teeth out, and then you then park the decision on a later date. Uh, do you have to see [00:52:45] the kid earlier? I personally don’t, but there is a massive school of [00:52:50] thought now that you could treat people or see people early at the age of six seven. [00:52:55]

Payman Langroudi: Interceptive.

Siamack Bagueri: Interceptive expand them. There is some, um, there’s in fact, a couple of cases [00:53:00] in the GDC going on right now whereby, um, mu John, your son [00:53:05] is expanding the arch kind of semi promising that parent [00:53:10] that the cognitive behaviour of the child will be improved because the actual space [00:53:15] will be improved breathing. There’s very scant evidence on that. So I don’t really [00:53:20] promote that. Having said that, I do treat people slightly early if if [00:53:25] there are certain parameters, if the teeth, if there’s very narrow upper arch or [00:53:30] okay.

Payman Langroudi: So if I’m a generalist, I’m a GDP. Yes. And I’ve got a seven year [00:53:35] old kid in front of what should I be looking out for? And I would I would say.

Siamack Bagueri: I would say [00:53:40] if a seven year old fronted a really sticking out, I think that’s important because that’s potential [00:53:45] trauma. If they’ve got an underbite or reverse bite, you know the tooth is in crossbite [00:53:50] again, that person could develop a displacement. So [00:53:55] correcting it is dead easy. Uh, correcting an overjet is easy in a young child [00:54:00] if the upright is narrow, overtly narrow. Crossbite. Yeah. Or narrow, I [00:54:05] would say it’s not a bad idea to see them early, because you can expand now with aligners [00:54:10] because they don’t have it doesn’t have to be that. Yes, the years you put [00:54:15] an arm or a quad helix a bit more of a it’s quite labour intensive now. [00:54:20] These days you can do it aligners and I know people who do it. I again I’m in [00:54:25] the twilight in my career so I’m not really one for doing that. Definitely. I know individuals [00:54:30] that are very much into that and I do not Pooh Pooh it at all. [00:54:35] Uh, so.

Payman Langroudi: Gdp with seven year old kids should be looking for narrowing of the.

Siamack Bagueri: I [00:54:40] would say so I would, I would say if they’ve got a narrow upper arch, high arched palate, overjet [00:54:45] underbite. Yeah. Those are, those are a few of the parameters. I [00:54:50] would say that they’re worthy of referral, whether you refer again. Don’t [00:54:55] forget, the majority of patients do not want to have [00:55:00] their kids treated privately. You know, even even the more well-to-do [00:55:05] parents, you know, there’s not much left in the pot after paid school fees [00:55:10] and so on and so forth. So there is that element that they still want NHS treatment. So within [00:55:15] NHS we can’t really treat anybody before the age of ten because we don’t get paid. [00:55:20] So therefore you got that fictitious age group that we don’t, we can’t [00:55:25] see patients, we can’t see them or we can’t do much. But even in those age group, I do do interceptive [00:55:30] orthodontics privately, we don’t charge a lot. But certainly [00:55:35] functional appliance therapy in a young child with a marked overjet [00:55:40] definitely works because it’s non-invasive. It’s not [00:55:45] that intrusive. You win. The kid to your side is not a full time appliance. [00:55:50] So and you get the kid, you get to know them much earlier. You’re not really [00:55:55] you’re not really affecting them really in their school. Because [00:56:00] in a lot of these appliance can be worn night time. So I would say, yeah, a marked [00:56:05] overjet would be my like top of the list, top of the list to do something about it. [00:56:10] Obviously caries and decay, loss of six goes, you know, goes without saying, but we’re talking about [00:56:15] large overjet underbite with a displacement and a narrow [00:56:20] upper arch crossbar. I think those are the cases.

Payman Langroudi: So does that mean the NHS? Payment [00:56:25] structure is causing way more extractions to [00:56:30] happen than need to happen. No, I.

Siamack Bagueri: Think, I think, um, I think first of all, the percentage [00:56:35] of people who fall in that bandwagon, which I just mentioned are quite small, [00:56:40] right? Number one, now, majority of kids who have got [00:56:45] mild to moderate crowding and there are mixed dentition. You can’t [00:56:50] there’s no there’s no rhyme or reason to do anything about it. Now, if those [00:56:55] individuals are referred early or are encouraged by the dentist, oh, we should do something [00:57:00] about it now. I think, unfortunately it’s because the dentists [00:57:05] knowledge is not good. And then if they fall into wrong specialist [00:57:10] who says, actually, you know something, we should start them early and then they end up [00:57:15] putting fixed appliances on for young from in a young age group or Invisalign. [00:57:20] I think a lot of that is financially driven. Certainly we see that a lot from [00:57:25] Florida and from New York. You know, from the states. We see cases have been treated [00:57:30] for five years. Uh, and obviously braces or aligners or attachments [00:57:35] for a long period of time. You’re encouraging gum disease and decay. So and [00:57:40] the insurance system or the way the patients are, you know, I went to an orthodontic [00:57:45] meeting about a year and a half ago. And this German guy. His rationale [00:57:50] was these days we don’t get referrals from general dentists [00:57:55] anymore. The general dentist is doing their own Invisalign or they’ve got their in-house [00:58:00] orthodontists. So referral rate for [00:58:05] orthodontists has gone down unless they’re referring NHS wise here as well.

Payman Langroudi: You’re here. [00:58:10]

Siamack Bagueri: So his his argument was that okay we’ve lost that group of people. So now [00:58:15] we’re going to go early. We’re going to go really early and let’s treat them at [00:58:20] the age of six. And we grab them. And as we grab them by by osmosis we’re going [00:58:25] to grab the sibling, the parent and so on and so forth. As he was giving the lecture, [00:58:30] there was quite a few eyebrows that went into spasm in the group of orthodontists because we thought, [00:58:35] what’s this guy saying? Having said that, quite a lot of people that I know. Within [00:58:40] the West End, who I know they refer rate has plummeted. [00:58:45] They’ve had no reason. They’ve had no choice but to do that, because [00:58:50] in the end they’ve got a mortgage to pay, they’ve got a lifestyle to lead. And there’s come a time that [00:58:55] reverberated, just dried out, completely dried out, so I can see why they’re doing [00:59:00] it. Um, I’m in a fortunate position. I don’t need to do that because, you know, [00:59:05] I can’t. I can’t see the reason to do that. [00:59:10]

Payman Langroudi: For outcome wise. Are you not saying that it’s a better outcome if you get [00:59:15] to them earlier? I think if.

Siamack Bagueri: You get to them earlier, there is you could argue [00:59:20] if decay and gum disease could be avoided by protracted [00:59:25] orthodontic treatment, which often can’t. You could argue that, yes, the bone [00:59:30] is much more malleable at the seven year old patients. Compliance often is better [00:59:35] in a young child, and you don’t have to do anything too complicated [00:59:40] in in a in a young age group, you can make it simple and you grab them early. [00:59:45] Yes, there is that argument. There is that argument. I again, because [00:59:50] in my career it hasn’t happened that way. I can’t condemn people to do [00:59:55] it. So when this fellow did speak what he did and I came away and I thought, this is interesting [01:00:00] because this guy in his late 30s, early 40s, I can see what he’s saying. I [01:00:05] can understand what he’s saying. He’s in a different he’s in a different evolutionary [01:00:10] path to what I am. So if I have got younger specialists [01:00:15] and as the years go on, we’re going to get younger and younger and younger, [01:00:20] especially as compared to in relative terms. And if they want to do [01:00:25] orthodontics that we didn’t do right, I’ve got to be totally open about it. [01:00:30] You know, there was a time that everybody would be fixed. I reckon in about ten years time, [01:00:35] 90% of stuff will be done by aligners, maybe even sooner. A significant portion [01:00:40] of dental monitoring will be done by eye. There’s no question about it. That’s the way things are going. So [01:00:45] you’ve got to just be embracing and say, okay, we know this is going to happen.

Siamack Bagueri: How are we going to [01:00:50] make it work for us and not be closed minded about not be? I [01:00:55] did it my way. Therefore that’s the only way to do it. That’s the worst thing to do. I went down Mainstream [01:01:00] tree and I went and got an morph. Now, having said all of that, I still [01:01:05] think a period of. Post-graduate [01:01:10] education is quite important because you’re going to see the case through [01:01:15] and you’ve got to be you’ve got to bounce ideas with your senior peers. And that could [01:01:20] only happen in an educational environment. It seldom happens in a practice by [01:01:25] yourself. It doesn’t happen that readily if you are doing it [01:01:30] remotely. It happens when you’re in person. So we often all [01:01:35] our therapists are under our supervision. We’re showing them afterwards, you really messed [01:01:40] up there or you did really well there. You can’t really do that remotely. So I still [01:01:45] very much a proponent of postgraduate education being an implantology [01:01:50] and all the faculties of dentistry, it cannot be [01:01:55] done by generalists, certain easy cases. Yes. But [01:02:00] you ask a generalist to root filling up a seven. It’s not, you know. Yes. [01:02:05] Sometimes you’ll do it well, but more often than not things go wrong. You know, they go wrong [01:02:10] because you really got to have those difficult cases, the cases that come back to bite [01:02:15] you, to realise when they go wrong, they go horribly wrong. And then you really are before the docs, [01:02:20] either before the GDC or you’ve been sued. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Leads me [01:02:25] neatly on to yes, the favourite part of my yeah, which discusses failures [01:02:30] and mistakes. Yes. So based on Black box thinking, which is about [01:02:35] plane crashes and how people learn from them and no one gets blamed and the whole community shares [01:02:40] the information. Yeah. Rather than in medical dental circles where [01:02:45] we’re also worried about blame. And we hide all of our errors. When I say clinical [01:02:50] errors, what comes to mind? What happened to you that someone else can learn from?

Siamack Bagueri: Yeah, I. [01:02:55] Well, 2003 two and three four was 20 years ago [01:03:00] now, um, I treated an adult banker who was [01:03:05] probably I was five years into treat treating people with lingual orthodontics. [01:03:10] Really? I was in a, I was I was a lingual juvenile. [01:03:15] You know, I was not really fully understanding the repercussions of [01:03:20] lingual orthodontics yet. I embarked on it, uh, and [01:03:25] I charged him at the time I remember was £5,000. I charged him halfway through treatment. [01:03:30] He had a brain tumour, and when he had the tumour removed, [01:03:35] he had kind of personality change. But notwithstanding that, [01:03:40] it was a very hard lesson for me because he started from becoming somebody who’s very, [01:03:45] uh, agreeable. There’s somebody very confrontational and [01:03:50] the treatment went from bad to worse. I managed to finish the case. And when [01:03:55] we finish the treatment before, because I knew it was going that way. On that very [01:04:00] last day when I took the appliances off, I as I gave him the retainers, [01:04:05] I gave him the check for £5,000. I said, look, I really, you know, I know you’re not happy. [01:04:10] Here’s the money back. So no, no, no, I’m going to sue you. I said, oh my goodness, here you go. As [01:04:15] it happens, he sued me and he lost. But my lesson it took ages. We [01:04:20] had to have it took at least two years of my life and we had an expert witness and [01:04:25] so on. In the end, he didn’t win. But what the lesson that I learned was [01:04:30] case selection. So case selection doesn’t matter.

Siamack Bagueri: Forget money [01:04:35] for time being. We’re just talking about, let’s say, a seven year old with an overjet or an adult [01:04:40] with a minor problem. So the period of time you take [01:04:45] before you tell your client what they need, you’ve got to spend some time [01:04:50] doing it. As a young dentist orthodontist, you mustn’t be too, too [01:04:55] impulsive to do treatment. Oh, and never really start the treatment. In the first visit [01:05:00] in yester years I even remember case would come in. Patient was really [01:05:05] keen, I was really keen and I would say, you know something? I could start now, right? [01:05:10] And that I stopped that years ago, I stopped that. So I would say that one case [01:05:15] stuck in my mind, and I’ve had since that case, I’ve had maybe two other cases [01:05:20] where I’ve given the money back to them because I realised that especially now with cost [01:05:25] of living and everything. And recently there’s a case that I discussed [01:05:30] with you, the bleaching case, that it was just not worth it. You know, something’s [01:05:35] not worth the headache. If somebody starts complaining, you kind of [01:05:40] within reason. You want to give in and say, you know something? We’ve out of all the thousands I’ve treated, very [01:05:45] few have complained. Handful and a few that have complained. Kill [01:05:50] it quickly. Close it, make them happy. Even though it may hurt you. Don’t let your pride [01:05:55] get to you, because think about all the other thousands that haven’t complained. [01:06:00] So. But what was the mistake? My mistake was.

Payman Langroudi: A case selection. My, my.

Siamack Bagueri: My [01:06:05] mistake in this particular case was I administered treatment [01:06:10] outside my skill set. My skill set wasn’t there to do what [01:06:15] I did. I should have really stuck to conventional orthodontics. I shouldn’t have been [01:06:20] dissuaded by the patient’s desire to have an invisible appliance. You know, cases [01:06:25] come to you. But then.

Payman Langroudi: Look, every time we do anything new or something, [01:06:30] move forward, we’re doing something for the first time. Right. And so how do you decide [01:06:35] what’s in your skill set and what isn’t? It’s very difficult. I mean, yeah, I think this particular case went south. [01:06:40] Yeah.

Siamack Bagueri: I think I think when it comes to doing complex orthodontics and I certainly know [01:06:45] and you know, some of these individuals who have done really complex [01:06:50] orthodontics, having not been a formally trained orthodontist, using [01:06:55] Invisalign and getting to a lot of hassle, a lot of trouble, I just think, remember, 4 or 5 [01:07:00] years ago, a colleague came to me, uh, series of cases he was doing and I and [01:07:05] I said to him that, look, some of these cases that you’re doing are really outside [01:07:10] the ability of Invisalign. And he insisted that, no, no, no, no, the Invisalign [01:07:15] are telling me that they’re going to do it. I said, yes, Invisalign is not a human. It’s a [01:07:20] is a is an I telling you, in reality, you’re not going to be able to correct the severe crowding [01:07:25] and an underbite with Invisalign. He didn’t listen because he was a platinum user. He was incredible, [01:07:30] blah blah blah blah blah. Anyway, he’s no longer on the dental register. That’s a nutshell. So [01:07:35] that’s what happens. Uh, it doesn’t take that many cases for you to [01:07:40] be in front of the doc. And then for let’s get to.

Payman Langroudi: That, to that basic question for maybe a young [01:07:45] dentist. We have a lot of students listen to this as well. Yeah. Let’s say let’s say I’ve done [01:07:50] some ortho training as a GP. Yes. Even though I know one year, one day a month, whatever it [01:07:55] is. Yes. Where’s where are the red lines regarding whether I should treat it myself or whether [01:08:00] I should refer. Yes, well, the obvious ones. And then what are the more sort of I would say.

Siamack Bagueri: In a nutshell, [01:08:05] if you’ve got a case which, you know, you can go back [01:08:10] to the drawing board and say, okay, if you’ve got a case and you’re you’re just dealing what we call the social [01:08:15] six, they call it social sex, whereby the front either side expanded, they’re slightly [01:08:20] chipped. And you’ve got a first of all, ask yourself, okay, I’m going to give this case to go [01:08:25] with some very simple aligners. You know, maybe what Invisalign light or a few aligners [01:08:30] with angel aligners or whoever you want to use. But really, whether the end game [01:08:35] for me is to perhaps with some composite build ups, some veneers maybe. So you’re [01:08:40] looking at it holistically. You’re looking at it as a general case, right? Knowing that [01:08:45] the end result is going to be very nice because you’re going to do all these other fancy stuff. So [01:08:50] those cases are fine. I would say definitely treat them. The cases [01:08:55] that are slightly more moderate. Carridine do not be fooled by what aligners [01:09:00] can do, because often aligners or the people who are prescribing the aligners may [01:09:05] promise you something that is not attainable. And it doesn’t take long for any [01:09:10] aligner not only to not align, but actually [01:09:15] cause a worse malocclusion. Often. Orthodontic appliances. [01:09:20] Iatrogenically caused a malocclusion to worsen [01:09:25] and it happens extremely quickly.

Siamack Bagueri: So, for example, let’s say in a fixed appliance [01:09:30] case, and we often see that done in an untrained pair [01:09:35] of hands. And the patient says, oh, I can do this with your social six easy. [01:09:40] I can put brackets on the upper 3 to 3 and it’ll be alive. Now they put a wire [01:09:45] in the patient made DNA once and before you know it, you’ve got canines [01:09:50] that are really have come out at the line of the arch apart from the recession is then [01:09:55] becomes a really complex case to bring those roots back in. So you’ve [01:10:00] got to be you have to realise that orthodontic forces [01:10:05] are much the side effects are horrendous, even an elastic [01:10:10] put incorrectly unsupervised. With a pandemic, we saw a [01:10:15] lot of cases coming to us and if you put the wrong wire in, you could extrude and you can, you can, you [01:10:20] can extract the tooth. So you’ve got to you’ve got to respect appliances [01:10:25] and a lot of cases that smiledirect were sued or [01:10:30] obviously sorry, not sued are cases that were unsupervised and [01:10:35] led to irreversible gum recession because of overt expansion. [01:10:40] So I would say if you’re going to do something a bit more moderate, seek [01:10:45] advice, ask somebody.

Payman Langroudi: But when you say moderate, are we talking about the amount four. [01:10:50]

Siamack Bagueri: Millimetres of displacement. So between two teeth anything which is four [01:10:55] millimetres of displacement between the edge of the enamel and the, let’s imagine a lower incisor, [01:11:00] the mesial tip, if it’s more than four millimetres from [01:11:05] the medial tip to the distal tip of the lobe, that that is more democratic. Uh.huh. [01:11:10] So I would say in those cases it is not you [01:11:15] know, you’ve been to a course and at some of these courses have been run by specialists. Right. [01:11:20] And there’s nothing wrong with you going back to that person and saying, what would I do here? [01:11:25] Right. You know, and I’ve got dentists who I work with. [01:11:30] I don’t condone everything they do, but they ask me, what should I do here? Right? [01:11:35] They often get the terminology totally wrong. Why? Because they haven’t done it. But I do [01:11:40] not, because some of them are my friends anyway. I’m not one to criticise them or [01:11:45] say to them, belittle them in any way I would. I would rather hold their hand [01:11:50] and say, look, okay, you want to do this? I’ll tell you what to do. This is what you should do. And then often [01:11:55] what happens? The side you know, the benefits that they refer a lot more [01:12:00] patients because they realise I think they realise the skills that I remember. [01:12:05]

Siamack Bagueri: Good mate of mine went on to a, um, implant course, [01:12:10] a weekend implant course. What’s the one with begins with b bi or something. So. [01:12:15] So maybe he when he started and he came back from the course all [01:12:20] fired up, he said this is fantastic. So so easy, so so easy. Well [01:12:25] it took him less than a year to say, oh, he made mistakes. He had horrendous problems. And [01:12:30] he hasn’t touched implants since because unfortunately when it goes wrong, it goes horribly [01:12:35] wrong. And then he kind of regrets it. You think, my goodness, why have I done [01:12:40] this? And and what’s happened? I think a significant number of dentists, [01:12:45] if you do orthodontics a lot as a general practitioner, you do it [01:12:50] regularly. Of course, you can become good at it. Like anything, there’s nothing. There’s nothing magical about [01:12:55] orthodontics. There’s nothing magical about getting an immortal degree. It’s just that in [01:13:00] an immortal degree, you are in a controlled environment where others with a pair of eyes are looking at you. [01:13:05] You know, I taught the Eastman for seven years, and I saw the problems and I [01:13:10] taught them.

Siamack Bagueri: So I think it’s nice to have to be in that [01:13:15] environment. Not if you’re by yourself in a practice. And all you’ve got [01:13:20] is a scanner and your only teacher is clincheck and an eye, [01:13:25] well, that’s a recipe for disaster. If you’re going to do a lioness, you know, use people [01:13:30] like angel aligners, use the people who are. There are plenty of people out there. Richard Cassidy does it. [01:13:35] There’s lots of, you know, Richard Jones does it. The total orthodontics boys, they will look at your [01:13:40] scanner scans, scan and advise you what to do. They will tell you my [01:13:45] goodness, you are now this is beyond the realms of aligners. Do not be fooled [01:13:50] by Invisalign light package of £1,200. They can get something [01:13:55] aligned in 17 align. If that is not correct, you will get into problems and [01:14:00] the problems become worse and all you then have to do is to put porcelain veneers 4 [01:14:05] to 4, which is not not the mandate of of aligner treatment. [01:14:10] You know, orthodontics mandate is enamel preservation. You’re not pushing [01:14:15] teeth into a different malocclusion and veneering them. I don’t think that’s the right thing. That’s quite [01:14:20] unethical in my opinion.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a lot of that going on. Um, I wouldn’t call it all unethical [01:14:25] insomuch as, um, you know, the contact lens for the sort of no prep veneer. It’s [01:14:30] become quite a treatment. Yeah.

Siamack Bagueri: The APA, APA does a lot of destiny.

Payman Langroudi: He likes to prep, but [01:14:35] but but you know, the getting the tooth to the right position so that the prep is very, [01:14:40] very, very.

Siamack Bagueri: Minimal.

Payman Langroudi: I you’re right. There’s people use that sometimes to make it a more [01:14:45] expensive treatment. And it gets you out of orthodontics naturally that you shouldn’t have gotten [01:14:50] into in the first place. So you’re right there. Is that quite interested in you know, you’ve got ten [01:14:55] big clinics, like how many chairs are in each like.

Siamack Bagueri: Between [01:15:00] on average, about four.

Payman Langroudi: For.

Siamack Bagueri: The 4 to 8. I mean, some [01:15:05] of them are huge, but.

Payman Langroudi: They have you got what’s the biggest one?

Siamack Bagueri: Uh, the biggest one we’ve got is probably [01:15:10] about seven.

Payman Langroudi: So. Yeah. So ten clinics dealing [01:15:15] with the government in terms of, you know, your payer is the NHS 70%. [01:15:20] You said of you. Yeah. Of course.

Siamack Bagueri: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How does that work. How do you how do you secure [01:15:25] that contract. And okay so before you buy it is.

Siamack Bagueri: So [01:15:30] so there’s a good question. So so first of all for a specialist [01:15:35] or a dentist matter who wants to purchase an orthodontic [01:15:40] contract. Yeah. So there are plenty of orthodontic contracts.

Payman Langroudi: So I know there’s a process. But how [01:15:45] do you win at that process. Yes.

Siamack Bagueri: So so if you are, if you for example, [01:15:50] right now post 2018. Right. Pretty much let’s [01:15:55] say south east of England, all the contracts have been district. So they did [01:16:00] they did their what they call needs assessment. They went around looking at the population. What [01:16:05] percentage of 12 year olds need orthodontics. They used some very sort of basic metrics. And they said [01:16:10] okay we’re going. Allocate X amount for this region and then for each clinic maximum [01:16:15] number of what we call euros or units of orthodontic activity. We’re not going to give them between [01:16:20] 10 to €15,000. Right. So then those contracts that [01:16:25] those practices that were doing orthodontics, they bid for those contracts. [01:16:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. How’d you win that bid?

Siamack Bagueri: So therefore that so so if those ten as [01:16:35] AB is tendering is now kind of die to death now. But let’s go back in time. Five [01:16:40] years ago, six years ago when we did it. Yeah. That there is a arduous tendering [01:16:45] process. It’s called a competitive tender. Yeah. Often you have to involve somebody [01:16:50] who can write the tender for you, an accountant who can, who can predict [01:16:55] what will happen financially. All the regulatory stuff from CQC, health [01:17:00] and safety, everything else. There’s quite a plethora of paperwork and there [01:17:05] is, if you like, narrative, it’s about 40 page narrative whereby they ask you for [01:17:10] certain things. For example, what languages will you offer on the front desk? [01:17:15] And you’re going to then say offer the foreign languages, and then we’ve got Google Translate and so on. Do [01:17:20] you open on a Saturday? Yes we do. They have, you know, do you have disabled access? Yes. What is it. [01:17:25] So then the narrative that you write in the tendering process, which [01:17:30] has been invigilated anonymously, each section by different person, the narrative [01:17:35] is a bit like doing a personal statement. So, you know, you’ve got to use fancy [01:17:40] words like championing or aspiring.

Siamack Bagueri: There’s certain language that you learn [01:17:45] to use, and I’ve done so many of them because I can find the right one with my eyes shut. But so, [01:17:50] you know, I spent a good year and a half writing them. We we employed [01:17:55] three different tender writers, and there are plenty around. You know, the [01:18:00] NHS does competitive tender in all spheres, not just orthodontics but the oral [01:18:05] surgery could be endo and so on. So if the benefit of a tender [01:18:10] is that you’re not buying a good will, you’re saying, okay, are they in Dunstable [01:18:15] there’s a contract going for orthodontics to treating 500 patients. So [01:18:20] what do you do as a as a fledgling. Then you say, right, I will first will do my research. I do my [01:18:25] needs assessment. I will go there, find the site, make sure it’s got either [01:18:30] the one use ability to dentistry or potentially one use. You start getting [01:18:35] your local dental company to come and draw for you where you would how you would set [01:18:40] up that dental practice. Access is in the air train station, is it parking [01:18:45] and so on. Some basic stuff that when you come.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t everyone doing that.

Siamack Bagueri: Everyone doing [01:18:50] that. So yes.

Payman Langroudi: Where’s the so.

Siamack Bagueri: So so that so therefore your USP when [01:18:55] it comes to difference between you and somebody else who’s writing it ultimately [01:19:00] is, is to do with what you providing. So there is fundamentally [01:19:05] they will say to you, okay, what you are a value. Can you do it at. [01:19:10] And you know, obviously you can’t do that £1 of uagh and you can’t do it at £100 of eurgh. So [01:19:15] you can then size up mathematically, do your math, do your do your maths, [01:19:20] get your accountant to get your accountant to to help you, to give you [01:19:25] predicted profit and loss with potential profit of whatever it is [01:19:30] per annum between 18 and 22%. There’s that fair amount of work [01:19:35] that you can do, but you can win or lose a contract by 1 or 2%. [01:19:40] You know, you could be in one of the paragraph. A friend of mine just did one for emergency [01:19:45] dental care in in West London. And he’s very good. [01:19:50] He you may know I mean, you know him remains anonymous for this podcast, but [01:19:55] he did it. He spent hours doing it. Hours. He lost it [01:20:00] to another friend of mine who I know. I know them both now. Both did it as an emergency [01:20:05] dental out-of-hours. It was a substantial amount of money and [01:20:10] he didn’t employ a tender writer. I’m not saying the other one did, but the other one [01:20:15] had done at least a dozen tenders, so he knew what to write in each [01:20:20] paragraph. So it’s like.

Payman Langroudi: And they said, do they take it into account that you’ve won other tenders? [01:20:25] No. Running up is.

Siamack Bagueri: Anonymous.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, it can be anonymous.

Siamack Bagueri: Anonymous. So each segment there’s let’s say 40 [01:20:30] segments, 40 paragraphs. They would say to you, okay, pay is [01:20:35] the skill set is in constant running the bleaching. I mean there was a bleaching question [01:20:40] and then there were you will be you will be examining. You’ll be saying, oh, this guy is using, [01:20:45] uh, you know, really strong peroxide, which is totally wrong. So therefore [01:20:50] off, cross off. And, you know, so this guy is talking correct. He’s using correctly. So [01:20:55] they will get people with predominantly majority of the legislators are non dentists [01:21:00] are basically normal managers who are just some of it I [01:21:05] dare say will probably be be uh tested by AI as well.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:21:10] super interesting because look this this organisation that you’ve built up is so impressive, right. [01:21:15] You’ve got the bit we talked about at the beginning about the, um, running [01:21:20] of the show, the hiring, the firing, the inspiring, the becoming friends with these people, taking [01:21:25] for lunch, making sure that the team’s happy. You’ve got the clinical aspects right, which. And [01:21:30] doing the work, hiring the right orthodontist. But this aspect [01:21:35] really ends up being a key aspect, because.

Siamack Bagueri: With that, there.

Payman Langroudi: Would be no [01:21:40] business.

Siamack Bagueri: No business. I mean, we know, we know. During the tendering process, another very [01:21:45] good friend of mine who had spent 25 years building a very successful [01:21:50] practice, uh, NHS and private, and he he bid [01:21:55] for his own contract, you know, and somebody else bid for that contract, and [01:22:00] he lost it. So he lost his livelihood, you know, he.

Payman Langroudi: Lost his own practice.

Siamack Bagueri: Yeah. Lost a [01:22:05] practice that was turning over 2 million. Wow. Went to nothing. So I knew he [01:22:10] became depressed.

Payman Langroudi: So is that what keeps you up at night then? Well, that.

Siamack Bagueri: That particular year, 2018, [01:22:15] I must say, when on the day when we were, when [01:22:20] we were granted the tenders for our London contract. But already you see going back, [01:22:25] going back to the reason why I did started investing in outside London practices, [01:22:30] I foresaw that one day this will happen. So even in [01:22:35] the early part of 20 1213, I started saying, this is going to happen and [01:22:40] we may lose our contracts in London. So then I started buying practices. I [01:22:45] started spreading my wings. I thought really, I could have existing practices, existing practices. [01:22:50] I could have just stayed in London and not done that, just stay to the three practices that [01:22:55] we had. But because I wasn’t sure, I started investing [01:23:00] and then I got a good partner in the commercial arm of Lloyds, [01:23:05] and then I thought I did one and I tried to that I did, I done a business [01:23:10] and I tried to open up bleaching teeth in markets which went south. You know, I [01:23:15] lost a couple of hundred grand. It wasn’t a big deal, but I learnt to fail. You [01:23:20] know, I learnt to fail in later and later because I was like just shy of 50. Then I [01:23:25] learned to how do I present it to outside investors? How to raise money, [01:23:30] a lot of intricacies about running a new business. And then on the back [01:23:35] of that I thought, you know something? This is not my skill set. My skill set is the orthodontic. Let me [01:23:40] stop buying orthodontic practices because I don’t know, in five years time, my London practice may be [01:23:45] taken away from me as it happened, clearly in this friend’s case.

Siamack Bagueri: So I was really happy. [01:23:50] I was quite confident that, okay, worst case scenario, I’ve got these other practices. [01:23:55] Worst case, you know, some of them went to competitive tender and in one of them we [01:24:00] multiplied it by three. So I thought, okay, that means I’ve written nicely here. [01:24:05] So if I multiply contract by three and they allowed us to spread our wings, it gave [01:24:10] me a little bit of, you know, empowered me a little bit. But we lost some as well. They [01:24:15] gave me wrong. But we then lost our existing practices. We lost. We applied for one in, [01:24:20] um, Amersham, which I really thought I put a lot of effort into that. We [01:24:25] lost that somebody else. But some of the other contracts that were won by [01:24:30] corporates. Uh, the corporate structures didn’t deliver. They [01:24:35] abused the pandemic and the furlough scheme, and they’ve now closed. All those contracts [01:24:40] are closed. They couldn’t deliver. It’s one thing winning it. Pay is one thing delivering it. Of course [01:24:45] it’s one thing keeping it. Because if you don’t have the right skill set in, the skill in the mix [01:24:50] doing it, you can go south very, very quickly. I mean, we’re [01:24:55] training some therapists right now and we went to Bristol and there are ten [01:25:00] therapists, ten. Ten specialists training these therapists. So [01:25:05] already one of them has lost his orthodontist. Now, don’t ask me why. [01:25:10]

Siamack Bagueri: It could be Portman. Could be someone else. Bottom line, the guy halfway through this poor guy’s, [01:25:15] uh, course. And he’s packed up. I don’t know why. [01:25:20] Maybe they’ve messed up. I’m not sure what it is, but in the very fine line between [01:25:25] success and failure, very fine line. So you’ve got to keep your head above water, have [01:25:30] multiple, you know, and I think I learned when I did [01:25:35] that little bleaching thing, I learned that this is just not really me. And I think if I did that I would have alienated [01:25:40] my referral base. And you kind of touched upon it at the time. And I kind of thought, you know, he’s talking sense [01:25:45] here. Um, so I shied away from it even at that time. I remember 2017 [01:25:50] distinctly. Remember a friend of mine said, Matt, we want to start a aligner [01:25:55] company which will compete with small direct, compete with Smiledirect. So [01:26:00] I said to him, okay, fine, I can let me have a look at it. And he had about 100 million behind [01:26:05] him. I went and saw the guy in LA and they knew that the marketing was incredible. [01:26:10] Packaging was incredible, just like enlightened, really, really fancy, fancy, fancy. And [01:26:15] they said, we just want to have a name so we can put that name on our thing, and [01:26:20] we want you to show us how to do it. Scanners hadn’t come out then, so I went through [01:26:25] it with them, and we did some prototypes with my technician, and I [01:26:30] kind of knew how to do it, and it was not difficult.

Siamack Bagueri: Then when the chips were down, I said, Daniel, [01:26:35] I’m not sure what I want to do this, to be honest, because I’m kind of happy where I am. I’m [01:26:40] gonna it’s not, you know, it’s going to alienate my referral base. Okay? I’m not breaking, [01:26:45] you know, I’m not doing any earth shattering, but I’m kind of happy. Anyway, fast forward, [01:26:50] they started the company. Bite me, bite me. They started the company. [01:26:55] And I kept telling him, I said, look, uh, Daniel, there will be a class action against what [01:27:00] you’re doing because what you’re doing is strictly going to be very frowned upon by the orthodontic fraternity. [01:27:05] Yeah. Fast forward December 21st, then split. Bought them [01:27:10] for a billion. Wow. Rebellion. I’m not sure how much he got out of it. Maybe [01:27:15] about ten, I’m not sure. But as it happens, then they closed up anyway because they followed [01:27:20] by Smile direct. So I said to him, because he’s a serial entrepreneur, his mandate is always [01:27:25] to exit before he’s even begun. So that was he’s done that for the past 35 [01:27:30] years. That wasn’t my thing. I’m not one to exit, you know, going back [01:27:35] to the very beginning of the pod. And one definitely want to pass on the legacy to the kids. [01:27:40] I want to keep it. I don’t want exit. There’s no exit. Exit is death. That is going [01:27:45] to be my kids. And hopefully they just carry on.

Payman Langroudi: You know, what would you have done differently? I mean, if you look back. [01:27:50]

Siamack Bagueri: If I’d done differently, I would first of all, would I have done dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: And within [01:27:55] dentistry? So let’s say we could rewind 30 years. Yes. And knowing what you know [01:28:00] now.

Siamack Bagueri: I think definitely the speciality of orthodontics would [01:28:05] I would have not chosen any other uh, that’s for sure. I [01:28:10] suppose all oral maxillofacial surgery was quite a sexy special specialist [01:28:15] practice to go in. I do regret that because I do. I would have really [01:28:20] enjoyed that. I did a little bit of that when I was a Great Ormond Street in UCL. I really liked [01:28:25] that, I must say. Having said that, when I looked at my peers who did [01:28:30] do oral surgery, some of them are like a nervous wreck. So I think fast forward, okay, [01:28:35] they may have had loads more patient satisfaction. The kudos of, [01:28:40] you know, resecting someone’s head and neck cancer or making someone orthographically [01:28:45] much. Yes, there’s a massive kudos in that. It’s if you if I’d [01:28:50] done that, it would be purely for the love of it. It wouldn’t be for the it wouldn’t be at all [01:28:55] for financial gain. It couldn’t have been. It’s not possible.

Payman Langroudi: But what about with the business? I mean, what. [01:29:00]

Siamack Bagueri: I think with my business, probably what I would have done differently. I [01:29:05] would have invested much sooner. I would have in [01:29:10] 2003 as I was. I’m, you know, 2005. I was 40 [01:29:15] in 2003, I think I was engaged with this case, which I mentioned. [01:29:20] Yeah. And it definitely did suck my energy in my 40s. [01:29:25] I would have probably expanded quicker. I expanded a bit later on in life. [01:29:30] So I think I expanded in my early 40s, late 40s. So [01:29:35] if I was to do what I’ve done. But having said that, had I done that, I would [01:29:40] have been probably burnt out quicker. So in some ways it was okay that I did a bit later and I did [01:29:45] it purely because of need. To be honest, I didn’t do it. I need had [01:29:50] this threat of a contract being hijacked from us not being there. [01:29:55] I wouldn’t have bothered, but because it was, it kind of almost forced my hand. I had [01:30:00] to protect. I thought, what if, what if, what if I’ve got to have.

Payman Langroudi: What keeps you up at night now [01:30:05] about the business? Like what I think actuality.

Siamack Bagueri: Right now, the [01:30:10] way the practices are running, I absolutely no, no problem at all. We’re going to really [01:30:15] good skill case mix of you know we’ve got a good great team I would say [01:30:20] from. But what do you.

Payman Langroudi: What do you worry about.

Siamack Bagueri: I think like always I think running [01:30:25] is financially. It is it is much tighter than ever before, much [01:30:30] tighter through the cost of just gone through the roof. You know, I occasionally I will [01:30:35] wake up like in the beginning of April, I woke up and I wrote to all [01:30:40] my managers there, right for the next five weeks, you’re not allowed to order anything. We’re going to go [01:30:45] back to their wardrobes, back to our cupboards. I want you to spend all this time finding [01:30:50] out what we actually have. We have so much stock and you guys are just ordering just like crazy. [01:30:55] So I banned them from ordering. In fact, one of them ordered something. I said, right, I want you to package [01:31:00] that and send it back. So well, Mark, you know, and it was £4,000 of coloured modules. They look [01:31:05] we then need coloured modules. We’re not being paid for coloured modules on the NHS. [01:31:10] Everybody will have grey modules. Doesn’t matter. You have to work with the time. So [01:31:15] sometimes I do react. I think my goodness will I make it. Despite [01:31:20] if I made it for 30 years back in my head, I know I will make it, but [01:31:25] so many of my peers in different realms, not just dentistry, [01:31:30] have gone to even they’re 60 or 60 5 or 70 and have [01:31:35] failed. And I’ve gone to administration, 70 practices.

Payman Langroudi: No, no.

Siamack Bagueri: 70 years old, age [01:31:40] of different ages different. And they have they’ve gone into admin or they’ve gone south. So [01:31:45] I think none of us are exempt. You can’t close your eyes.

Payman Langroudi: It’s sobering. Right. It’s sobering. It’s some [01:31:50] some guy sitting hasn’t even opened a single practice and would think that if someone owns ten [01:31:55] ortho practices, you’d be okay. They don’t hit cash crises. Yeah, of course you have cash crisis. But we all do something.

Siamack Bagueri: Because [01:32:00] because you’ve you’ve you’ve bitten a lot. You’ve leveraged. Yeah. People have lent you money [01:32:05] and then you, you know, you probably overspend. Uh, we’ve had to really [01:32:10] recalibrate our lifestyle. You know, our sort of, you know, the, our lifestyle, you know, [01:32:15] go to less holidays or but I think we, we look upon it now that we’ve done quite [01:32:20] a bit over the past 30 years. We don’t miss any of it, to be honest. We’ve done, you know, you name it, [01:32:25] we’ve done it. So I’m not particularly fussed about not going on holidays. It’s okay. I totally [01:32:30] get it that right now the whole country is going through a really difficult time [01:32:35] and it is what it is. We can’t, you know, a new government is not going to change it before.

Payman Langroudi: Right? [01:32:40] It’s it’s not the first time.

Siamack Bagueri: It’s not the first time. But I think this.

Payman Langroudi: Time dentistry though does do quite well. [01:32:45] I mean.

Siamack Bagueri: Generally everything goes.

Payman Langroudi: Well in a recession.

Siamack Bagueri: Yeah. I remember my mum always said to me, [01:32:50] um, because a good relative of ours was, uh, ophthalmic surgeon [01:32:55] and I always loved that. So I would love to be an eye surgeon. And my mum said, [01:33:00] you know, she said to me, oh, but, you know, um, uh, patients, people [01:33:05] have got 32 teeth, but they need to one pair of eyes, so you’re likely. We can [01:33:10] fill it, drill it, move it, remove it. And I said to her, that’s such a wise thing. And then [01:33:15] she’s right. You know, I’ve found this surgery would have been lovely, but, you know. But no teeth [01:33:20] are teeth. People like to keep teeth, you know, and more and more and more and, uh, you [01:33:25] know, I think orthodontic dentistry is fantastic, but you have plenty [01:33:30] of totally unsuccessful dentists who don’t charge correctly. They undercharge, [01:33:35] uh, they don’t do it properly. They did halfheartedly. Uh, [01:33:40] they then really spend time perfecting whatever it is they may do, [01:33:45] you know, even down to basic veneer, you know, you got to do it properly. Got [01:33:50] to go. And of course, do it correctly so that it stays, it looks good so that the next person comes through. [01:33:55] You can’t blag good dentistry. You can’t blag it. I don’t think you can, contrary [01:34:00] to some people’s belief.

Payman Langroudi: Agreed. Not in the long run. Um, we’ve come [01:34:05] to the end of our time. That’s a bit quick. Okay, end it with the usual questions. A [01:34:10] fantasy dinner party? Yes. Three guests, dead or alive, that [01:34:15] you have.

Siamack Bagueri: So I would have around because obviously I play a lot of tennis, [01:34:20] so I would love to have Borg. Bjorn Borg, Bjorn Borg [01:34:25] I would definitely have him around the table.

Payman Langroudi: Not McEnroe. Not more interesting.

Siamack Bagueri: Yeah, but [01:34:30] I like Borg because I really I used to, I used to he was my hero. And [01:34:35] I would like to because he’s a, he’s a, he’s a quite a calm character and I [01:34:40] you know, I’m probably more like McEnroe myself. So. No, I don’t want him around the table. Uh, [01:34:45] on a political arena, I would probably have someone, I [01:34:50] would say, who do I really, um, you know, I don’t want to say something basic, like. [01:34:55] Yeah, I would probably like to have the Shah of Iran. I think [01:35:00] he he has a lot. He’s extremely intelligent. Very well read, man. [01:35:05]

Payman Langroudi: He could answer a few.

Siamack Bagueri: He could answer a few questions, you know, in that [01:35:10] I would really like. So that’s the more to my, my, my heritage. And then I [01:35:15] also would like, I would like to have a lady around the table and I’m thinking of who I [01:35:20] would like. I would say someone like Martha. I [01:35:25] would like Martha. I mean, around the table. Wow. I would like I would like to have someone, [01:35:30] a Kurdish girl, innocent girl who just loves life, [01:35:35] who is like an epitome of what our youth in Iran are going through. It’d be nice [01:35:40] to have around the table. Yeah. Be nice to see what’s what she’s got to say for herself. So [01:35:45] yeah, I want youth in her. I definitely want a young person around that table. [01:35:50] I want someone who’s incredible in tennis. And then. Yeah. Shah of Iran. [01:35:55]

Payman Langroudi: You. Björn Borg’s gonna feel a little bit left out of this. I know, I know, but you’d be wonderful to the party [01:36:00] conversation. But it’s a good list. It’s a good list. Now, the final question. On [01:36:05] your deathbed?

Siamack Bagueri: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Surrounded by your loved ones? Yes. Anyone who’s [01:36:10] important to you, hopefully many years from now. What are the three pieces of advice you’d leave for them? [01:36:15] For the world?

Siamack Bagueri: I would say, um. I’d [01:36:20] said that at the beginning of our part, but I think I’m going to say it again. I would [01:36:25] say definitely don’t. Grieve [01:36:30] too much on your failure. So whatever failure or.

Payman Langroudi: Your [01:36:35] success which was.

Siamack Bagueri: Beautiful or or gloat on your failure, don’t dote on your success, on [01:36:40] your failure too much. There’s a there’s a there’s a book in the Bible which I always [01:36:45] quote to patient to people and the book of Ecclesiastes in the Old Testament. [01:36:50] And, and this is an incredible particular chapter. And it says, [01:36:55] there’s a time to cry, there’s a time to laugh. There’s a time to dance. There’s a time to [01:37:00] sleep. And you’ve got to take every life is, is [01:37:05] quite is like a sine wave up and down. So that’s for sure I would [01:37:10] say definitely. Then I would put those to one, one, one thing. Don’t gloat. Don’t gloat on [01:37:15] your success or failure. Remember as well, if you stand still, you [01:37:20] die. I often say to my to my to my son, to my daughter. I said, look, if you stand [01:37:25] still, you’re going to be still for a hell of a long time in the coffin. So [01:37:30] don’t stand still. Move, move, whatever it is you want to do, [01:37:35] move. Because that whole concept of moving, the journey, that’s [01:37:40] all you have got in this life. Because otherwise you’re going to be in that, in that coffin for a hell of a long time.

Siamack Bagueri: I was saying [01:37:45] that. Then I would say, yeah, I would say, don’t get angry [01:37:50] because anger would definitely deplete [01:37:55] your heart, your blood, your cognitive behaviour. There’s a lot of research on anger, [01:38:00] sort of quench your anger, replace it with something else. [01:38:05] Anger is not good. Is a negative, is a negative emotion. Don’t get angry with life. [01:38:10] There’s plenty for us to get angry about, but replace it with [01:38:15] a little bit of a bit of Bjorn Borg, you know, replace that with just that calm [01:38:20] manner, and then that way you can hit a good shot, because if you’re angry, [01:38:25] you know, if you speak to someone like McEnroe, a lot of his problems came from his anger. [01:38:30] Had he not been had he been a Roger Federer? Roger Federer had terrible temper issues, but [01:38:35] he managed to organise his anger. And he then most people who don’t know [01:38:40] Roger Federer, they think he’s such a placid guy. Yeah. But actually his temper issues. So if you [01:38:45] can control your temper, your anger, you can do a lot more in life.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing, [01:38:50] amazing. Been a massive pleasure. Thank you so much for coming.

[VOICE]: This [01:38:55] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go [01:39:00] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:39:05] hosts. Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:39:10] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole [01:39:15] thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening [01:39:20] to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out [01:39:25] of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you [01:39:30] would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so so much [01:39:35] for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Daniel Daggers: I was listening to a podcast the other day, and there was a guy talking about where success [00:00:05] comes from, and he said that there’s a fine line between success and [00:00:10] addiction. And it was quite interesting what he said. He said, when you’re a child, [00:00:15] if you have too much trauma, it can lead you to addiction. So whether that’s [00:00:20] drinking or alcohol or whatever it may be, you could even be work. I’m semi addicted [00:00:25] to my work. If you have just enough trauma, it propels you to success. [00:00:30] And I found that really valuable. And I don’t like. [00:00:35] For instance, I have a team of 34 people now. I want to protect all of them. You know, if [00:00:40] they go to war, they know I’m behind them kind of thing. Yeah. If they’ve got an issue, I’m there to support [00:00:45] them. That’s my role. I think that it’s, um, extremely valuable life [00:00:50] lessons and going through the thick of things really shapes the human being. And [00:00:55] so you want people to understand and appreciate what [00:01:00] great is, what good is, what bad is. Otherwise, you just become [00:01:05] just too soft.

[VOICE]: This [00:01:15] is mind movers. Moving the conversation [00:01:20] forward on mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. Your [00:01:25] hosts Rhona Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Welcome [00:01:30] to the Mind Movers podcast. I like to call it the [00:01:35] Mental Health Podcast, where we delve into the stories of those who inspire us to think deeper [00:01:40] and dream bigger. And that’s why I’m honoured to have Mr. Superprime Daniel [00:01:45] Daggers. I had the honour of meeting Daniel through my incredible friend Nina, who’s also been on the podcast. [00:01:50] Daniel has made him a name for himself as one of the top luxury real estate [00:01:55] agents globally, with a career spanning over a decade. And we’re going to get into that. [00:02:00] He’s known for his dedication to clients and expertise in closing significant deals, and Daniel’s professional [00:02:05] journey is nothing short of remarkable. And I truly mean that because I like to bring people on here that truly [00:02:10] inspire me. So I’m talking totally from the heart. Beyond his success in real estate, he’s [00:02:15] also a passionate advocate for mental health. So one of the reasons Daniel and I connected, I don’t know if you remember our chat in Chiltern Firehouse, [00:02:20] where I was talking about being trolled and having people that tried to also, like, ruin my life at one point by also [00:02:25] trolling my family. And you could relate to that somewhat, because we were seen as people that were doing something in [00:02:30] a very traditional career path, but doing something that was different, particularly online. He’s [00:02:35] also venturing into a new realm with an up and coming project with Netflix. I know that we can’t [00:02:40] say too much, but I’m super excited and they definitely need to watch [00:02:45] out. What’s the American one with all the American people on it? Yeah, Selling Sunset needs to watch it. I was once [00:02:50] in a program like that for dentists, by the way. It was like, that would be amazing.

[TRANSITION]: It’s really.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing. It got pulled [00:02:55] though last minute. But anyway, so it’s an absolute pleasure to have you here today. And I’m really, really excited. [00:03:00]

[TRANSITION]: Pleasure is mine.

Rhona Eskander: Yes. Amazing. Okay. So I want to start from the beginning. Daniel I always like [00:03:05] to start from the beginning. I want you to tell me a little bit about your childhood, your upbringing, [00:03:10] where you grew up and what it was like.

Daniel Daggers: Okay, so I have a yemenite-israeli mother [00:03:15] and a father from Stoke Newington that makes this love it. [00:03:20] My father was a kitchen designer when they had me worked for Magnet and Southland, which was [00:03:25] a really big brand at the time, and ran around designing kitchens and then supplying them. My mum [00:03:30] is a stay at home mum, which I think is a professional job, especially when she has to raise someone like me. I [00:03:35] had loads of loads of energy, grew up in Maida Vale, grew up in local authority housing till I [00:03:40] was, uh 11. Life got a little bit easier. Dad started doing a little bit better and [00:03:45] we moved out from there into our own little place when I was about 13, 12, 13, [00:03:50] something like that. I had a really interesting background in terms of my life at the time. As a kid, [00:03:55] I didn’t know what local authority housing was. I really love where I live. I had a little garden at the rear, [00:04:00] kick the ball up against the wall, was on my skateboard, ran around with the kids, [00:04:05] local kids on the street, skateboarding down the street, played football opposite until mum came [00:04:10] out and said, hey, come in, dinner’s ready. When all the other mums would do the same. Played in the local [00:04:15] park in Paddington Rec, which everyone called the Rec and went to a local boys club at the time. [00:04:20] So youth centre now, but boys club at the time had a lot of challenges, had [00:04:25] a lot of challenges.

Rhona Eskander: Tell us a little bit about that.

Daniel Daggers: Um, well, I was fortunate enough to [00:04:30] get into a primary private school, which was new and just down the [00:04:35] road, and because they didn’t have any kids in it, there was like a quota of [00:04:40] ten kids that could come in for free. So we didn’t have much at the time. So my parents got me in, [00:04:45] which was great. It was a Jewish school, and I saw what successful [00:04:50] people look like. Then, you know, where mums and dads would turn up in a Mercedes and [00:04:55] all that sort of stuff. Never, never seen that before, really. My dad drove around in a Laguna or Sierra [00:05:00] with a roof rack.

[TRANSITION]: Um, nothing wrong with that.

Payman Langroudi: No. There’s nothing. I loved it, I [00:05:05] didn’t know any different. And then at night I would go to the local boys club, which was called Paddington Boys [00:05:10] Club, and I would be with kids that had nothing or very little, often [00:05:15] single parent backgrounds. Kids are up to everything. Trouble [00:05:20] that you cannot imagine. I was bullied, it was challenging. I had to fight.

Rhona Eskander: So [00:05:25] this was in your new school?

Daniel Daggers: No, I wasn’t really bullied at school. It was a different kind of attitude [00:05:30] at school. You know, I was the kid at school that didn’t have as much as everyone else. Even though I had amazing [00:05:35] parents that loved and adored me and cared for me like you cannot imagine. And my upbringing was [00:05:40] great. But when I went to the local boys club Youth Centre, I was a kid that had everything. [00:05:45] I had both my parents, I had food on the table. Everything was great, like I was none the [00:05:50] wiser. And the other kids there, they were single parent households going through really tough times. [00:05:55] They went straight into crime pretty quickly, a lot of them, and [00:06:00] I was the black sheep in every environment I was in. Yeah, totally. But [00:06:05] it was one of the wisest things my parents ever did was sending me to that boys club, because I learned what [00:06:10] different kinds of people or how different kinds of people lived. [00:06:15]

Rhona Eskander: Do you know, I really resonate with that. So. I had my dad on my podcast. I don’t know if you [00:06:20] saw the clip.

[TRANSITION]: You know.

Rhona Eskander: On a couple of weeks ago and we talked about my upbringing because people [00:06:25] have a lot of preconceptions about how I got to where I am today. And one of the main things is that, you [00:06:30] know, we came to the UK and we actually didn’t have much money at all, and my dad had to start from scratch on [00:06:35] the NHS, which wasn’t a great salary for a family of four, but my mum didn’t want to send us to the local [00:06:40] state school because they were really rough. And um, what happened was, is that she [00:06:45] ended up finding a job in retail. Now for her, that was really difficult because she had a degree from Berkeley, but it [00:06:50] actually wasn’t valid in the UK and she didn’t couldn’t afford to go back to university. So she decided to [00:06:55] go into retail, worked on a shop on Bond Street, and every single penny was spent on our schools. But we like, never went on holiday, [00:07:00] never ate out anything like that. Look, everyone has privilege to a degree because, you know, even when I tell the [00:07:05] story, people are like, at least you have parents that love you. Like, I get it, we all have degrees of privilege, like, you know, and [00:07:10] but I really understood that when they sent me to a private school, we couldn’t even afford uniforms. We had to buy, like [00:07:15] the second hand uniform from the, you know, from the sort of like charity shop within the school. And kids [00:07:20] made fun of me. And like you said, I wasn’t being picked up by cars. You know, I had to take the bus. And [00:07:25] when I went to my friends houses, they were living in, like these incredible houses, and we were living in like a small [00:07:30] little house in Swiss Cottage, you know. But all that stuff drove me because seeing [00:07:35] kids and parents that provided that made me feel in a way that I wanted to [00:07:40] prove something because there was so much judgement on my parents and what we couldn’t afford. But it also made me feel [00:07:45] like I want that as well, and I have.

[TRANSITION]: How old did you start.

Daniel Daggers: Feeling that way?

Rhona Eskander: I would say that started [00:07:50] at about. So I came to the UK when I was five, but I think I really felt it when I was about 8 or 9.

Daniel Daggers: Okay, [00:07:55] so I didn’t feel it at all.

[TRANSITION]: Oh really?

Daniel Daggers: As a kid I didn’t feel it at all. Um, I [00:08:00] loved my youth, I loved it, I loved playing football on the grass opposite [00:08:05] with all kinds of people you could ever imagine. Right. And [00:08:10] I love just having the ball in hand, playing football, going to school. I wasn’t great [00:08:15] at school at all. I was none the wiser, I was none the wiser, [00:08:20] and I enjoyed it immensely. I’d have all those years again, even with [00:08:25] all the bullying and like, you know, I remember going to bed when I was, um, very young [00:08:30] and I’d been threatened, you know, like, this is going to happen to you tomorrow [00:08:35] kind of thing. I remember being in bed at 8 to 9 years old thinking about stuff like that. But, [00:08:40] um, I loved my youth, I loved it. I couldn’t have thought of anything better. If you gave me a [00:08:45] football and put me in the park or in the youth centre or on the grass opposite, and my dad would come out every night almost, [00:08:50] and kick the ball up in the air and we’d play. I was none the wiser about everything else. I knew nothing about chauffeur driven [00:08:55] cars and Rolexes and glamorous hotels. We hardly travelled. I went to Paris once [00:09:00] without going to the family home abroad. I went to Paris once until the age [00:09:05] of 18. Yeah. And then, you know, you get a bit of independence and you start [00:09:10] wanting to travel a little bit, and then your mates start having birthdays abroad and all [00:09:15] that sort of stuff. Then you explore Europe and all that, sort of. I mean, it’s I loved my upbringing, [00:09:20] but it was the wisest thing ever. My parents sending me to that youth centre.

[TRANSITION]: Why?

Daniel Daggers: Because it [00:09:25] gave me so many skills. Because I can speak to anybody. Anybody. [00:09:30] I can speak to anyone you could ever imagine. It doesn’t matter. I can speak [00:09:35] to an Iranian family and know little things about their culture. I can speak to a muslim family, know little [00:09:40] things about their culture. I can speak to just an English family that live around the corner. Love [00:09:45] to go to the pub every night or whatever it may be. Jewish, it doesn’t matter. Religion, [00:09:50] race, it doesn’t matter. I’ve experienced conversation with those people. Sometimes difficult, [00:09:55] sometimes easy. And I love it. And it’s given me such a great skill set to [00:10:00] engage with people that it was. It was probably the wisest thing anyone’s ever done for me. [00:10:05]

Rhona Eskander: Interesting that you say that, though, because I do think to a certain degree. I mean, look, some [00:10:10] people can learn interpersonal skills, but I think emotional intelligence is [00:10:15] actually something that people are gifted with. I do think you’re somebody that has emotional intelligence because you have [00:10:20] related and you understand it’s something that I believe I’ve also been blessed with. Prav always says [00:10:25] this Prav is my business coach, and it’s because I have deep empathy for every single human [00:10:30] being that I ever speak to, and I really try to meet them where they’re at, despite where they come from. I don’t think that’s [00:10:35] necessarily something that, you know, you pick up. I’m not sure.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm. I mean, look. [00:10:40]

Payman Langroudi: We all get put in different situations in life. Right. And some of them [00:10:45] we take too naturally and some of them we learn from and so on. But in, [00:10:50] in that exposure to these different types of people, what were your conclusions that everyone’s [00:10:55] worth talking to or what was the I.

Daniel Daggers: Think when you’re when it’s probably a bit like food, [00:11:00] if you taste a lot of different kinds of food, then you see [00:11:05] a difference. But you don’t see a difference. Like it’s just what you fancy, what you like, what you do. But it’s still [00:11:10] food, right? These people, human beings. I loved engaging with them, and [00:11:15] I learned. I learned so much. Now, I didn’t know that as a kid at the time, I thought, you know, oh, this is annoying. This [00:11:20] is frustrating. They’re different. I’m different. And I talk to my friends that have children and [00:11:25] say to me, you have to expose kids to things that are different to them. They have [00:11:30] to learn at an early stage, because otherwise what you know is what you know. And if you only know a very narrow [00:11:35] amount of information around people and how to speak to people, then that’s where [00:11:40] they’re going to sit for the rest of their lives. Unless they’re very brave and having the [00:11:45] ability to speak to so many different kinds of people wealth, status, race, [00:11:50] religion, I feel really comfortable with everybody. I never feel uncomfortable, [00:11:55] and I love that more than any piece of education [00:12:00] that I’ve been given that skill. You can get up, go anywhere around [00:12:05] the world just to do anything for your profession, and you can take that skill that will [00:12:10] benefit you in the future. And that’s the wisest thing that I’ve, I’ve, I’ve had in my [00:12:15] life, for sure. And the funny thing is it didn’t cost us anything.

Rhona Eskander: My question is, how did you overcome the bullying? [00:12:20]

Daniel Daggers: You sort of grit your teeth and keep going.

[TRANSITION]: Did you tell your, I didn’t really have any?

Daniel Daggers: Uh, to [00:12:25] a certain extent, I think. Yeah, to a certain extent, when it’s on your doorstep, [00:12:30] you can’t run away from it. So you have to learn how to deal [00:12:35] with it. And the way I dealt with it was being really good at football. Um, [00:12:40] that was our common language, and I was thankfully very good at it. [00:12:45] So I got some respect from the kids, especially when we got older. They [00:12:50] were like, he plays football with us on a Sunday. He’s really good. I want to protect him. So [00:12:55] ironically, the kids that had struggles with became my bodyguards on [00:13:00] the football pitch. Yeah, they went on and had really difficult times, but still now [00:13:05] when I, when I drive through the neighbourhood, sometimes I see the guys from the boys club and they’re all wave [00:13:10] and and I love that because I know that they’re supportive of me [00:13:15] because I’m still one of them. I think going through those challenges as a young man [00:13:20] has enabled me to overcome more challenges as I’ve got older, [00:13:25] and life is very quick to challenge you.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, 100% [00:13:30] at any opportunity.

Daniel Daggers: So having the skill as a as a young human being, [00:13:35] learning the skills as a young human being, as much as it may hurt any parent, is [00:13:40] extremely valuable 100%.

Payman Langroudi: The constant struggle between do you provide the most comfortable [00:13:45] life for your kids, or do you let them be shaped by the challenges? [00:13:50] Because at the end of the day, if it’s only a comfortable life, then they end [00:13:55] up soft. You know they can’t handle.

Rhona Eskander: Pain is where the growth happens.

[TRANSITION]: People forget that pain. [00:14:00]

Rhona Eskander: Is where the growth happens.

Daniel Daggers: I think it’s really I’m not a parent, so I can’t speak for parents. I [00:14:05] think when you have a problem, you should share it because you only know what you know and there are other people [00:14:10] that know other things. So that’s that’s one point that I would probably sort of stress. [00:14:15] Hopefully one day when I have children, I will want my kids [00:14:20] to appreciate life. And I was listening to a podcast [00:14:25] the other day and there was a guy talking about where success comes from, and [00:14:30] he said that there’s a fine line between success and, and [00:14:35] addiction.

[TRANSITION]: Um.

Daniel Daggers: And it was quite interesting what he said. He said, um. [00:14:40] When your child. If you have too much trauma, it can [00:14:45] lead you to addiction. So whether that’s drinking or alcohol or whatever it may be, [00:14:50] you could even be work. I’m semi addicted to my work. If you have just [00:14:55] enough trauma, it propels you to success. Um, and [00:15:00] I found that really valuable. I think that parents and I don’t [00:15:05] like. For instance, I have a team of 34 people now. I want to protect all of them. You know, [00:15:10] if they go to war, they know I’m behind them kind of thing. Yeah. If they’ve got an issue, I’m there to [00:15:15] support them. That’s my role. I think that it’s, um, extremely valuable [00:15:20] life lessons and going through the thick of things really shapes the human being. [00:15:25] And so you want people to understand and appreciate [00:15:30] what great is, what good is, what bad is. Otherwise [00:15:35] you just become just too soft.

Payman Langroudi: How did you take from [00:15:40] sort of being a one man band to being a boss?

[TRANSITION]: Well, this is.

Rhona Eskander: No, we [00:15:45] need we need to rewind pay because we want to know how. So we got the school right. So then [00:15:50] how did you end up in real estate?

Daniel Daggers: Super simple. I didn’t want to be a real estate agent. I wanted to be a professional footballer. [00:15:55] Just like a lot of boys. And now girls that grow up in the UK, I wasn’t good enough. I knew [00:16:00] deep down I wasn’t good enough and I broke my collarbone. I was I was still at I was just coming out [00:16:05] of school, did sixth form, didn’t have the grades to go into university. [00:16:10] So they said, no, you can’t do real estate university. I wasn’t going to be a doctor. I wasn’t going to be a dentist. [00:16:15] I just don’t have the durability when it comes to studying things. I [00:16:20] find that really difficult. I’ve always found it difficult. I couldn’t spell, I still can’t [00:16:25] spell. So you just found it hard to probably, I don’t know. Yeah, I found it hard to read. I [00:16:30] think arguments that I had with my mum when I was a kid about reading was like painful. [00:16:35] Um, she wanted the best for me. She just didn’t know about dyslexia. And I think I’m self-diagnosed. [00:16:40] So I, you know, I can’t, can’t say for sure. So I wasn’t great at school. Um, [00:16:45] but I had a good way with people and the and the teachers like me because I was a [00:16:50] good boy, so studied, uh, business in sixth form. And that’s the [00:16:55] first time that. Someone clicked the light on for me. It [00:17:00] was literally that moment. The light went on and I was like, now I have a subject that I [00:17:05] can use. I can go and earn a living and find some independence. And immediately [00:17:10] I took to it like a duck to water. I was really interested in the topics I was learning [00:17:15] about tax and how to dodge tax and all that sort of stuff, you know, as a kid.

Daniel Daggers: But it’s true. You’re just trying to find solutions. [00:17:20] You’re trying to find your way through it, and the teacher would laugh and so on and so on. I did well, [00:17:25] and I had to do a two week work experience. So we went to a local estate agents [00:17:30] called Vickers at Time in Maida Vale, and they knew my dad. So my dad had a word and said, look, would [00:17:35] you take my son on for two weeks? I went in there, licked loads of envelopes [00:17:40] and stamps and just learnt a little bit and was helpful. I think [00:17:45] I got £100 gift voucher which was great. And then I went to finish off the course and then [00:17:50] I went to study surveying at college in Neasden, and I knew [00:17:55] from the first day that it wasn’t right for me. I broke my collarbone playing football in the park with some friends, [00:18:00] lost my opportunity at Hayes Town Football Club, which was a feeder club, and [00:18:05] I got a phone call from the boss saying, hey, we’re looking for somebody. One of [00:18:10] our agents has left. Would you be interested in joining? I had a phone interview, said everything I shouldn’t have said. [00:18:15] They still gave me the job and I started working at 17.5. Spotty teenager [00:18:20] walked through the office door. Remember? I was petrified. There’s a phone. There’s the fax machine over [00:18:25] there. There’s the draw, the details. All the properties, make phone calls, show property, do [00:18:30] deals, make money. And that was that was how it started. I [00:18:35] didn’t want to be an estate agent.

Rhona Eskander: So then at 17, did you know that you had the knack for what you were [00:18:40] doing? No.

[TRANSITION]: So you just went. I was.

Daniel Daggers: Petrified. Are you serious?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Daggers: Pick up the phone, call [00:18:45] a stranger. Tell a stranger that you know what they’re looking for. Then entertain them. [00:18:50] Pick them up in your car. Even though you’ve only just passed your license and you’re petrified to drive around and [00:18:55] and park, reverse park with someone in the car who’s older than you. You’re a kid. [00:19:00] You know you’re a kid and then say, okay, you need to carry loads of keys around. Figure out [00:19:05] how keys work because you have loads of keys or loads of different keys to doors and all over the place. I mean, it was a nightmare and [00:19:10] it sounds weak, but it’s true because you don’t want to fumble in front of somebody. And I was driving [00:19:15] around in my blue Vauxhall Courser. Yeah, we had a spoiler at the back row, and, [00:19:20] um, I didn’t feel that I had the knack of it until probably [00:19:25] 19. Okay. And at 19, there was a moment where I was in negotiations with somebody and I [00:19:30] opened it to the floor. It was a small office, only about eight people, and I explained [00:19:35] the issue that I’ve got and everyone was thinking about it. I’ve got guys there double my age and more. And then I found [00:19:40] a answer to my own question that no one else thought of, and [00:19:45] then went, that was a good idea. And that’s when I knew. Yeah, that’s when I knew, like, um, okay, [00:19:50] I get this, I get this now. And it’s not because I love selling real [00:19:55] estate. The hack is not about selling real estate. The hack is [00:20:00] understanding people.

[TRANSITION]: And that’s your love.

Daniel Daggers: That’s the hack. Yeah. I never went [00:20:05] out with somebody going, I want to say I want to make £400 because my commission, the first property I ever sold, [00:20:10] was £117,000, and I think I made £200. I was [00:20:15] never going to be phenomenally successful in that role selling that value property. I [00:20:20] needed to build my. I didn’t know this. My personal brand. Make a good impression. [00:20:25] This is where my mum, when my mum used to say to me, hey, walk down the street with your head held high. [00:20:30] Don’t drag your feet. Dress smartly. Smile at people. When you cross your legs. Make sure [00:20:35] the base of your foot isn’t facing a woman. Walk on the right side of the road. All those things [00:20:40] allowed me to make a good impression on people. So thank goodness for my mum, right? [00:20:45] Even though it was painful at the time, she did exactly the right thing and [00:20:50] I made a good impression on people. And I knew that even if I hadn’t sold that property to somebody, one [00:20:55] day they may come back to me and say, I remember you.

[TRANSITION]: I [00:21:00] like, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the game of trust, isn’t it?

[TRANSITION]: I was going.

Rhona Eskander: To say like there’s one. [00:21:05] Daniel was speaking. I was like, I never went into dentistry, which a lot of dentists do, being like, I want [00:21:10] to provide like the best, most beautiful, like restorations. For me, it was always a [00:21:15] feeling like I want to do good dentistry, but I want people to feel amazing. And [00:21:20] some of my patients that come to me for consultation five years ago come back. Sure. [00:21:25] Do you know what I mean? And not at that time, because they say, I remember. And one of my patients, I posted a very emotional [00:21:30] story yesterday and she I said to her, like, what makes you chose me? And [00:21:35] she said, because you made me feel through your branding and your persona [00:21:40] that I trusted you. I mean, she didn’t say the word branding. She said on your Instagram. I felt like I knew [00:21:45] you. I felt you had empathy. And that’s what you said. Like a personal brand is so strong yet [00:21:50] so underrated, especially with people that are stuck into that old school mindset of like, [00:21:55] you know, being doing commercial traditional marketing. And they don’t understand that people buy [00:22:00] into the people. That’s the thing that matters the most.

Payman Langroudi: Real estate is very interesting because if someone [00:22:05] buys £117,000 house from you, they still have to fully [00:22:10] trust you. I mean, that’s still 117. Yeah. Well, yeah. And yet when someone buys a £30 million [00:22:15] house from you, it’s, it comes down to trust again. But but in real estate, that £30 million [00:22:20] house can make you so much more money. Right? It’s almost the same amount of due diligence, but [00:22:25] much more money to be made from the bigger deals. Well.

Daniel Daggers: Yeah, 100%. But I’ve done a lot of [00:22:30] thinking about this because we built a really interesting business, which will come to at some point. But people who worked [00:22:35] in real estate or have worked in real estate that sit behind the company brand, there is no [00:22:40] trust in that, you see, because you don’t get to know the individual delivering the service who’s going to be walking around [00:22:45] the most expensive asset you’ve, you’ve owned or own and will [00:22:50] be in your intimate life. You know where your babies are, where your children are, you know where you [00:22:55] sleep, and you have no idea about that individual. Nothing. You know more about your Uber driver that you’re scared [00:23:00] to put your daughter in. Yeah, you know more about your Uber driver than you do about your estate agent. And [00:23:05] the only reason you trust them is because they sit under a banner when they can leave that business tomorrow. [00:23:10] Mhm. Actually, if you have a digital footprint and social media channels, [00:23:15] that person is more trustworthy because they cannot evaporate.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm. So [00:23:20] true.

Daniel Daggers: Right. And the thing is, is that now we’re starting to come to terms with the fact that there’s a [00:23:25] sort of life cycle where we’re coming to a place where you’re delivering a service and [00:23:30] more and more people who are becoming more and more educated that will be able to deliver the same service as me. In theory, [00:23:35] they can you can learn how to negotiate. In fact, we built a course to teach people how to negotiate, [00:23:40] how to greet a woman in a hijab. No one taught me that. I’ve had probably 20 [00:23:45] days training in my life. I had to train on the job. Why? Now? I can train a lot of people, thousands [00:23:50] of people online and give them my skills, but they can deliver the, in theory, the same service [00:23:55] as me from a practical point of view. But they can’t do me. Yeah, they can’t do [00:24:00] me.

[TRANSITION]: That’s what I would say.

Daniel Daggers: And so there’s loads of dentists out there that can offer an amazing service. [00:24:05] Yeah, maybe even a better service.

[TRANSITION]: So I would say.

Daniel Daggers: But if you don’t know who they are, you [00:24:10] will never get that service. And this is the way the world is going. Everyone can [00:24:15] see it now. You know, you touched on the subject of doing things differently, being a bit of a black sheep. [00:24:20] I always want to be a black sheep. I always want people to wonder. [00:24:25] After going through my life that I’ve gone through over the past 20 years at work, 25 years at work is that [00:24:30] if you’re brave enough, you will be a black sheep. And if [00:24:35] you’re self-aware enough and you understand your environment, being a black sheep means [00:24:40] you see opportunity faster than others 100%. And that’s okay. That’s absolutely [00:24:45] fine. Yeah. Enjoy it. Be misunderstood because that’s often where success comes from. [00:24:50] And so I say to the people in my business, don’t be misunderstood [00:24:55] because the world will catch up with you. If [00:25:00] you’re self-aware and you’ll recognise what you’re doing, the world will gradually come up, you know, meet you. [00:25:05] And when they meet you, you know what they’re going to say. They’re going to say, where have you been? [00:25:10] I’ve been looking for you for the service that you offer for years. And you’re [00:25:15] here and you’ll be like, well, I’ve been here for the past 25 years.

Rhona Eskander: But [00:25:20] people, people can see that now because enough people are savvy enough to like, be doing the research, especially on social [00:25:25] media, etc.. I want you also to tell us, Daniel, obviously, I know because one of the first [00:25:30] times we met, I think I just experienced some really bad trolling online. Yeah. And it’s something that I have to deal [00:25:35] with. I talked to Payman about it and like recently I’ve become like more thick skinned about it. But it’s still [00:25:40] it’s still difficult because no matter like out of the like 99 comments, even if two [00:25:45] are bad, you hyper focus on the two and you don’t see the 97 that are good. You know, that’s human nature. [00:25:50] And I know that you told me you had also experienced some things online as well, [00:25:55] because you wanted to do things differently online. You know, you were one of the first [00:26:00] people to become a kind of real estate influencer, as it were. Yeah.

Daniel Daggers: Uh, if you are wanting [00:26:05] to do something that is different to others and you see traction and you see positivity [00:26:10] out of it, and as long as you’re putting positivity in the world, if people [00:26:15] are going to hate on you, then let them hate. Hmm. Okay, I’m putting positivity in [00:26:20] the world. I don’t talk about evil things. I don’t try and put negative things into the [00:26:25] world. If you don’t like me, that’s not my problem. That’s not mine.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, it’s a you problem. And [00:26:30] the thing is.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, and that’s fine.

Daniel Daggers: And if you’re going to want to or if you’re prepared to accept other [00:26:35] people’s negativity, and that’s going to stop you from delivering what you want to deliver, [00:26:40] then you care too much about what other people who don’t care about you think. Yeah, I care about [00:26:45] 20 people’s well, I care about the people that work with me. I care about my clients, and I care about my family [00:26:50] and friends. That’s what I care about. I care about their opinions. And they have a good enough relationship with [00:26:55] me that if they feel that I’m doing something wrong, they’re going to tell me because I have honest relationships [00:27:00] with people. But if Peter Pan U-47 one two wants [00:27:05] to wants to. Yeah. No one wants that wants to say something, then I’m going to move [00:27:10] past that pretty quickly.

[TRANSITION]: You know. No.

Rhona Eskander: So tell us now a little bit because [00:27:15] obviously we want to get into the juicy bit about what your current business involves and what you do.

Daniel Daggers: Okay, so [00:27:20] I left Vickers, went to a big firm because I saw there was more opportunities where the world was changing [00:27:25] and it was going from a state agency, small ones, to big corporate firms that [00:27:30] are taking market share, that invested in brand. They invested in offices and had [00:27:35] more exposure. I felt that was the best place for me to go. Went to a company called Knight. Frank, had an amazing [00:27:40] career there, was there for 12 years, climbed that company pretty quickly. I was the highest earner, [00:27:45] I think, for every year I was there practically, um, I pioneered [00:27:50] social channels through that business was generating over £400 million worth of leads a month [00:27:55] through social media. I knew it was the future. It was something I invested in. I enabled that organisation to benefit [00:28:00] from that too. And then I took a role to be the US ambassador. I travelled a lot. I [00:28:05] was curious, um, I knew that I knew a little, but I wanted to know more. [00:28:10] And so I went. Travelling did a lot in the US. A lot of Europe, some [00:28:15] Middle East. And then I went to Australia and I got a taster from lots of different people on [00:28:20] how they were doing things, and that’s where I got a real glimpse in the US as to how social media could have an impact as well, [00:28:25] and certain things happen, which just was obvious to me. And so did [00:28:30] that explored that became the head of the private office at that firm, dealing just with ultra [00:28:35] high net worth community. And then I left. I left under [00:28:40] difficult circumstances. I can’t talk about it. I would love to. [00:28:45] Maybe it would be a book one day. And then I started Drew [00:28:50] Global on March the 20th, 2020.

Rhona Eskander: Reminds me of my name, by the way. I’m just going [00:28:55] to say it’s like Doctor Rowena Iskander saying.

[TRANSITION]: Well, I did the whole thing.

Rhona Eskander: Well, got [00:29:00] complex things.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Okay.

Daniel Daggers: Maybe. Yeah. I mean, Drew Global was [00:29:05] Daniel Dagger’s real estate, but I wanted to pivot it into into a platform business, which [00:29:10] is what we’ve done now. And there was value in my name because I was relatively well known [00:29:15] in what I do. And, uh, we’re now 34 people. Uh, [00:29:20] we’re the sixth most influential real estate business across the UK at marketing homes, over £5 [00:29:25] million. We’ve done that in at the time that that stat was about three and a half years. Now, [00:29:30] four years in, we have a Netflix show. We do things very differently to [00:29:35] everybody else.

Payman Langroudi: So explain how that.

Daniel Daggers: Okay, I’ll, I’ll explain I look, [00:29:40] Ryanair is right. Okay. This our world is built on personal brands wherever [00:29:45] you go. Previously you would meet me in an office and then when you leave the office, my [00:29:50] personal brand would evaporate until you remember me. Okay? Nowadays, you don’t need to do that anymore. People [00:29:55] can find you on social media and they’ll follow your journey irrelevant. Regardless. [00:30:00] They’ll just. I’m interested. Okay? And you document and they stay in touch with you. [00:30:05] So your personal brand is always relevant. It is there and it’s talking all the time to people. [00:30:10] So drew is an incubator. What we do is we take [00:30:15] an individual that wants to deliver an amazing service, and we give them all the attributes [00:30:20] to do that with technology, content and media plus a network. Through [00:30:25] the technology that we’ve got, we compound that value of that person’s business [00:30:30] and we water them and we enable them to grow as far as they want to grow, [00:30:35] make as much as much money as they want to build their teams, whatever it may [00:30:40] be. But we enable them and that is our business. So we have somebody [00:30:45] recently who’s just started to build their team, so it’s not an individual. There’s now two [00:30:50] of them because their business is getting bigger and we are essentially their partner in growing [00:30:55] their business because I believe that people go to people, not organisations, [00:31:00] but people. True. Because that’s where trust lies. I talk about three words in our [00:31:05] business trust, likeability and respect. The [00:31:10] other three words, and you can only really do that with a person.

[TRANSITION]: 100%. [00:31:15]

Daniel Daggers: Not an organisation.

Rhona Eskander: And that applies for medicine and dentistry as well. Of course it does, because that’s [00:31:20] exactly. And that’s the way the world is turning. It’s interesting because a lot of businesses are also pivoting into that. [00:31:25] Recently, I think you guys probably know, um, Steven Bartlett invested in [00:31:30] a place called until, um, which is like a community based, but one of our dentist [00:31:35] friends is actually, um, yeah. So one of our dentist friends is actually heading the dental side [00:31:40] of it, and they see that he’s actually my business partner as well. But anyway, they saw an opportunity [00:31:45] to say that, like people as you are, like they’re really leaning into their entrepreneurship. They recognise [00:31:50] their their own brand. And, you know, the ability for like a space like that allows them to grow within the community [00:31:55] with their brand, you know, which I think is interesting because a lot of businesses are pivoting [00:32:00] into that. And I think it’s important.

[TRANSITION]: It’s obvious.

Daniel Daggers: It’s obvious. We’ve got a diagram that we show people [00:32:05] to explain our business model. Previously, when you were offering a service, you had to work in an office [00:32:10] and sit in your chair, pick up the phone and deliver [00:32:15] a service. And the person that owned the business would advertise the business through traditional [00:32:20] media. They would have the money to have an office to put your bottom on, and [00:32:25] then you would get the leads and transact. So the owner of the business would keep the [00:32:30] majority of the commission, pay you a salary to do the work, and off you go. And it boils down [00:32:35] to marketing. The reason why that business was set up that way is that the principle [00:32:40] of the business had the ability to advertise. Nowadays, people don’t like watching [00:32:45] brands. It’s very hard for a brand to go and be everyone’s friend and [00:32:50] stay relevant all the time. And people are the best marketers, so [00:32:55] the person closest to the customer is the person of influence, and it is your practitioners [00:33:00] that are the most important people. So what you want to do is you want to put them at the top of the business. [00:33:05] So you invert the triangle. Yeah. So you have many people that are delivering a service. [00:33:10] And then underneath them is the support you give them. So if you give them content and they can push it out [00:33:15] there now advertising, when they bring their client in, you give them the tech stack and the opportunity [00:33:20] to transact with those people. Every business will be doing that when it comes to service industry, [00:33:25] every single business, because your people are the best advertisers, [00:33:30] they’re the.

[TRANSITION]: Best.

Rhona Eskander: 100%. Tell us a little bit about your influencer marketing, because I know that we [00:33:35] talked about it because you were one of it. Didn’t you use a few influencers, I think, before to do tried everything. [00:33:40]

Daniel Daggers: I’ve spoken to influencers. Mac, who is, uh, starred guy. We’ve [00:33:45] done, we’ve done, yeah, we’ve done.

[TRANSITION]: We followed him.

Daniel Daggers: He’s wicked.

[TRANSITION]: Funny. He’s wicked, he’s wicked.

Rhona Eskander: We find him hilarious. [00:33:50]

[TRANSITION]: So, Mac, I’m.

Rhona Eskander: Were you using them, though? Tell us how you were using these.

[TRANSITION]: We use them.

Daniel Daggers: To. [00:33:55] Okay, so there’s another platform that we built called advocate I. It’s an abbreviation for [00:34:00] Word advisor. Another. And the other word is advertiser. So we [00:34:05] can give content to people to push out over their social media channels with a link that drives their [00:34:10] customers to a page that is their own page, so they don’t lose their customers to me, for [00:34:15] instance, and enables them and their reach to advertise our properties. [00:34:20] So we’re enabling people to market properties and earn a [00:34:25] marketing commission, almost like an affiliate.

[TRANSITION]: Like an affiliate marketing. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah.

Daniel Daggers: Interesting.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: It’s [00:34:30] amazing. I’ve seen it.

Payman Langroudi: You acted for the buyer.

Daniel Daggers: Yeah, for the buyer all the time. Most [00:34:35] of my business is buyer based business.

[TRANSITION]: What’s that?

Payman Langroudi: So you’ve got normally a state agent will work for [00:34:40] the seller.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah fine. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like these high net worth types. They don’t want to bother themselves [00:34:45] looking at houses. Exactly. Someone they trust. And say I want [00:34:50] whatever it is. What if people asked for because love is a difficult property?

[TRANSITION]: You asked [00:34:55] me this question.

Daniel Daggers: Everyone’s like, what’s crazy that people have asked for? And I’m like, well, [00:35:00] you know, no one’s asked for anything crazy. Okay, just to be clear, [00:35:05] most people that are buying very expensive homes don’t ask for anything crazy. They might [00:35:10] say, oh, we want 400 acres of land, or we want a garage for 20 cars. But [00:35:15] when you talk about crazy, no one asks for crazy. People build crazy. [00:35:20]

[TRANSITION]: Um.

Daniel Daggers: Right. Because they own it. They can do what they want [00:35:25] with it. So I’ve seen Shark Tanks, Shark Tank in London, I’ve seen shark [00:35:30] tanks in London, I’ve seen bowling alleys.

[TRANSITION]: Way, way.

Daniel Daggers: Yeah, yeah. When you throw the ball. Yeah, 100% when you throw. [00:35:35] I didn’t get in the tank. They when you throw the ball down the, down the um the alley, the lights come on as [00:35:40] the ball goes down the alley. Right. Oh that’s I’ve seen like, amazing things. Yeah. London. Yeah. I’ll never say [00:35:45] where because I can’t disclose that. But I’ve seen some amazing things.

Payman Langroudi: Come on. Go on, say some more.

Daniel Daggers: So [00:35:50] it’s amazingly simple. Eraser pads in the back of someone’s house and landing for a viewing. That’s.

Rhona Eskander: I used [00:35:55] to see some amazing houses in, like Bishop’s Avenue. I used to get like.

[TRANSITION]: Amazing.

Rhona Eskander: Like bar mitzvahs and stuff, [00:36:00] like on there with like crazy. Like.

Daniel Daggers: I grew up in a 600 square foot apartment, for God’s sake. [00:36:05] Right. Like authority House, like everything that I’ve seen has been amazing at every stage in my career. But [00:36:10] I’ve seen so many amazing things. Now I’m a little desensitised. Yes, of [00:36:15] course I am. Of course that’s going to be. And also, let’s say you’ve got this amazing home and it’s 100 [00:36:20] million and your agent walks in and it’s, wow, this is amazing. [00:36:25] I’ve never seen anything like this. You’re going to think, well, you don’t. You’re [00:36:30] meant to see things that are similar to this. You shouldn’t be that amazed by it because it means that you’re not [00:36:35] in that environment. So do you want me to be ah. Or do you want me to tell [00:36:40] you the truth? Like, this is beautiful. I love the the finish or the shadow gap, [00:36:45] or I know who that designer is or your piece of art there is beautiful. And that’s what they’re [00:36:50] the things that the client really wants to appreciate. That I sing a similar tune, I’m as knowledgeable, I’m in their environment, [00:36:55] all that sort of stuff. But like crazy stuff. The Shark Tank thing [00:37:00] was amazing.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I mean, come on, a.

Rhona Eskander: Shark tank in.

[TRANSITION]: London was amazing, but I.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, so. And then what about [00:37:05] so now you’ve had the opportunity and I know that you’re working globally. So how did [00:37:10] so after you had done like all the travelling left your old job? Did you start the global stuff [00:37:15] immediately when you started your own business? So you were like, right, I’m not just sticking to London, I want to do Dubai, [00:37:20] etc., etc. was that a transition?

Daniel Daggers: Every business is a global business. [00:37:25] I am so strong on this point. You [00:37:30] will find somebody that comes in who would like some help with their teeth from all over the world. [00:37:35]

Rhona Eskander: True, I have someone from New Zealand coming in next week.

Daniel Daggers: So you are a global business, are you? You [00:37:40] are a global business. You’re no longer advertising. This is all about marketing. Everything is about marketing. [00:37:45] Now I’ll put it into perspective as an estate agent 20 years ago. Yeah. Or [00:37:50] more. Let’s let’s go back 100 years. The people you are marketing to. If you had an office [00:37:55] with Daniel estates on it, the people that I was marketing to was in a walking distance. [00:38:00] So four mile radius. So there’s my office, four mile radius. They’re the people [00:38:05] I’m advertising to because it’s on the top of my building and I want them to come past us. Yes. [00:38:10] Everyone starts driving. Okay. If there’s a petrol station opposite, I’m going to get more people know [00:38:15] about our our office and the service that we deliver. So now all of a sudden it’s more than [00:38:20] four. It’s maybe 15 to 20. When our business is [00:38:25] online and you’re creating content and driving people to your business, you [00:38:30] can hit people all over the world. And if they like you, [00:38:35] respect you, and trust you, they may just fly over from New Zealand [00:38:40] to get their teeth done.

[TRANSITION]: They do.

Daniel Daggers: Okay, so every business that [00:38:45] is creating content is a global business.

Payman Langroudi: But what’s what’s the business model. So someone says I’m [00:38:50] interested in buying a house in Marbella. Then what? You contact an estate [00:38:55] agent in Marbella and split the fees with him or something? Is that.

Daniel Daggers: It depends if they want us to act exclusively [00:39:00] for them. So I don’t disclose their name. No one knows about their name. No one knows that they’re looking, which is [00:39:05] very valuable. I will go there. They will retain me. So they’ll pay me a sum up front. [00:39:10] I will travel to that destination knowing what they’re looking for. I’ll speak to the people on the ground and others and maybe clients [00:39:15] that I know that own homes there. I’ll walk them. I’ll go back to the client and say, by the way, these are the three [00:39:20] that I like. Yep. Which will suit you. We need to go and have a look at it. Then people will see who that person is, [00:39:25] and then I’ll act in their best interest to secure the transaction or the purchase [00:39:30] at the best price possible and the best terms possible. Yeah. And they will pay us a [00:39:35] fee to do that. It’s often 2% the buyer. Yep. The buyer will do that. And then you have [00:39:40] to ask or they should ask themselves, well is Daniel going to save me enough time [00:39:45] because it’s time that I’m saving them enough time and money in negotiations, so [00:39:50] that I’m happy with the service that offers. Now most people are thinking, well, is [00:39:55] he going to save? Or most people think, is he going to save more than 2% off the price? [00:40:00] Yeah.

Daniel Daggers: But what’s sometimes more valuable is [00:40:05] if you buy the wrong property. Because it’s really not right for [00:40:10] you, or you didn’t know if there was any structural issues. All title issues and [00:40:15] you buy the wrong property. It can cost you 20%. Mhm. Well I’m [00:40:20] going to make sure that’s not going to happen. As well. So there are loads. There’s loads [00:40:25] of reasons why you would have a person deliver a service for you, but we’re doing that globally. So for instance, I’ve acquired [00:40:30] now over $150 million worth of real estate in the Middle [00:40:35] East for clients, mainly to buy people really well known, half of it in Dubai, [00:40:40] people really well known, some people who are billionaires that no one knows and [00:40:45] they’re on LinkedIn, but no one knows who they are. And [00:40:50] I will continue doing that. And I call it a global mandate. And essentially [00:40:55] I become part of their family office. And that’s it. That’s that’s that’s part of my role [00:41:00] now, as well as running the business and doing the Netflix thing and all that sort of stuff.

Payman Langroudi: What have been the biggest [00:41:05] challenges in this journey?

Daniel Daggers: The past since I started my business. Yeah. If [00:41:10] it wasn’t for Sara who works with me, I would be in the dark on a lot [00:41:15] of things. So when you’re setting up your business, you often haven’t done [00:41:20] a lot of these things before, but there is a tried and tested way of doing it. Yeah. And [00:41:25] I needed Sara’s help to do that because it’s not in my wheelhouse. It’s not my my form of expertise. [00:41:30] So Sara would confess to say that she wouldn’t be a great agent. She [00:41:35] doesn’t need to be. So you do need someone sometimes to guide you. And that person is Sara. She’s amazing. [00:41:40] She was my assistant in my previous firm. Now she’s the CEO of the business and she’s super impressive. [00:41:45] The tricky thing for both of us is that we built a business that is different [00:41:50] to every other business that we know. And so you’re often not only building stuff that [00:41:55] I don’t know about, but maybe Sara has a level of expertise in delivering it, but we’re also [00:42:00] changing everything else that was once built. So [00:42:05] our website is very different. Our website is main website, but microsite is for every one of our agents because [00:42:10] they’re all independent brands, sorry advisors. And we share content to [00:42:15] all these people that then push out over their social channels to entice clients to drive them back [00:42:20] to their own page, not my website. Um, so [00:42:25] we built a wheelhouse that’s going to create a lot of value for the people that work [00:42:30] with us, and that has been immensely [00:42:35] difficult to do. Because you have to think it, picture [00:42:40] it, then explain it and then build it.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Daniel Daggers: So [00:42:45] and that is really difficult. That is really.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult. Underestimate the that [00:42:50] issue on the explain it part.

Daniel Daggers: The explaining part is the most difficult thing. So the two people in my business [00:42:55] who I value tremendously understand my gobbledegook. [00:43:00] Right. That word. Yeah. Understand the way that I can’t articulate what [00:43:05] I actually need. But they can translate it. Elliot and Sara can translate all the things [00:43:10] that I can’t even speak properly about.

Rhona Eskander: I think there’s so much value into leaning into people’s skills. [00:43:15] I often talk about this, you know, people that have I have a really different way of thinking. I [00:43:20] mean, I’m a self-diagnosed ADHD person, right? And my friends always take the Mickey [00:43:25] out of me for it because I multitask. And I know that sounds really weird, but my brain [00:43:30] works best when I’m doing five things at once. It’s really weird. Obviously, the only time I can’t [00:43:35] do that is when I’m focusing on the patient and the Dental when I’m physically like doing the drilling or whatever, whatever. [00:43:40] And so people will say to me, how do you fit so much of your time? And it’s like, because I’m like, when I’m walking [00:43:45] to the gym, I write emails, I plan my content, I’m voice noting my social [00:43:50] media manager saying this to go out and messaging him about the next podcast guest. Do you see? I mean, and I do five [00:43:55] things in that like hour walk and I feel like I’ve achieved so much now. I [00:44:00] experienced difficulties in my working life because people would see success and [00:44:05] they think I’m a really great person to work with, but their brain works very differently to mine, and they [00:44:10] try to force me to do tasks that I’m not very good at. So as you were speaking about, Sarah’s [00:44:15] like, I’m terrible at admin, like within a dental practice, you have to go like the rules [00:44:20] and regulations are a joke, like way worse than like, you know, you’ve got terrible.

[TRANSITION]: Trust as well. Trust me, you’ve got like [00:44:25] AML cuch.

Rhona Eskander: We’ve got like our indemnity, the like the paperwork [00:44:30] is immense. I didn’t have the first clue. And if I’m completely honest, I still don’t [00:44:35] really have a clue. And I own the business because I had a shit hot operations manager. [00:44:40] She’s incredible, has run Dental practices and she’s amazing at the admin, and I [00:44:45] lean into her and sometimes I get a bit panicked because I was like, something happens to her. I wouldn’t know the first clue about [00:44:50] the paperwork and I’m being completely transparent. But she also knows where my skills are at, and that’s bringing [00:44:55] in the patients, doing the marketing, like leaning into that stuff. And I think it’s incredible how [00:45:00] a lot of people try to force people to have these skills that they actually aren’t very good [00:45:05] at, especially in school, as you were saying, you know, you weren’t good at reading and writing, yet people [00:45:10] force that upon you rather than utilising your brain for what it is good at.

Daniel Daggers: 100% [00:45:15] true. Yeah. I, um. You need to hire the skill.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, [00:45:20] 100%.

Daniel Daggers: You hire the skill. I am, uh, I’ve seen it more and more. [00:45:25] Uh, when you’re running a business that you hire the skill. And [00:45:30] what I would challenge you with is I’m spinning a thousand plates at the same time. I mean, [00:45:35] I’d often say that I probably, in the beginning, bit off [00:45:40] more than I could chew. Yeah, I set up two businesses at the same time, plus a training business. [00:45:45]

[TRANSITION]: Been there, done.

Rhona Eskander: That, got the t shirt.

Daniel Daggers: Um, it’s a lot of work. Thankfully, I have a lot of energy [00:45:50] like you do, and I can spin a lot of plates. But the question is, can you spin a lot of plates efficiently? [00:45:55]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Daniel Daggers: And what I’ve realised over time is that [00:46:00] get really good at giving other people work, and when I try [00:46:05] to do is I tried to give people. Jobs. [00:46:10] They’re not ready for that they will grow into because they know [00:46:15] that I’m there to support them regardless. And if they achieve a job that is that [00:46:20] is a little bit further away than what they thought they were capable of doing, and they achieve it. [00:46:25] You’ll see confidence level rise, and then they’ll attack the next problem [00:46:30] and the next problem and the next problem. Always thinking about a solution. So I like to [00:46:35] upskill people.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah I love that.

Daniel Daggers: And for instance, we got a young lady called Claudia [00:46:40] who came in as an as an essentially executive assistant when she was 21. [00:46:45] If you ask her about compliance, she knows more about compliance than a 50 [00:46:50] year old would. Claudia is unbelievably valuable. In fact, I took her out for lunch [00:46:55] yesterday to Chiltern Firehouse to say thank you. Yeah, because I want her to stay in the business.

Rhona Eskander: I think [00:47:00] making people feel valued is the most one of the most important things. Like, I’ve never [00:47:05] I mean, I struggle with it. I’m going to be honest, because my philosophy was always empower people. [00:47:10] And, you know, for example, a lot of dentists won’t allow, um, their associates [00:47:15] if they’re a practice owner, they actually don’t want their associates to have their brand, to have their own brand. [00:47:20] And the reason is, is because they’re worried that when they leave.

[TRANSITION]: With the clients, they’ll.

Rhona Eskander: Leave with the clients. Exactly. And the [00:47:25] goodwill of the practice then will deteriorate. But my whole thing is, like you said, no one can be Rona. [00:47:30] And actually I want all of my team to have their own brand and be empowered, because actually I want to build a brand [00:47:35] that is focussed on the whole team, the whole setup, not just me. And I think that’s really important [00:47:40] to empower them. However, having said that, a few people [00:47:45] over my time of being a practice owner have shown to develop a big ego and that’s [00:47:50] the thing that I found difficult to manage, you know, because I think that I’ve [00:47:55] empowered them, I’ve given them tools. I’ve been like, do this, water them, as you said. But then some of them have developed [00:48:00] a really big ego, and that’s a difficult thing to control.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. Renee, you were that dentist yourself. [00:48:05] Mhm. Yeah. You know in Joseph’s practice.

[TRANSITION]: But he, he [00:48:10] had.

Payman Langroudi: An ego. It’s a cycle of, of, of work. Yeah. I’m sure you have [00:48:15] this question in your head as well. But with, with your associates do you call them associates advisors. Advisors [00:48:20] advisors. Um.

Daniel Daggers: My view is that [00:48:25] I have to continue to add value to their careers and create more [00:48:30] opportunity for them all the time. Yeah, all the time.

Payman Langroudi: What does that entail? [00:48:35] So content creation you talk about a lot. Yeah.

Daniel Daggers: Content creation.

Payman Langroudi: Do you, do you introduce [00:48:40] them to the clients to your clients. Yeah.

Daniel Daggers: Often I’ll introduce them to my clients if they if they fit [00:48:45] the right profile and they can anticipate and understand the client, then [00:48:50] yes. My attitude to the people that work that I work with is that if you want to [00:48:55] leave, I will help you leave. If you want to go somewhere in particular, I will help you. Someone. [00:49:00] Someone I had to ask. Leave the business. Okay? It wasn’t easy for me. It was the first time [00:49:05] I had to do something like that. But I found them their next job. And I say [00:49:10] to everybody in the business. And I wouldn’t say I was a perfect boss, you know, I don’t even like people calling me the boss. [00:49:15] Some people call me boss. I’m like, I’m a partner. I’m everyone’s partner in the business. But [00:49:20] my attitude is, this is this is the opportunity. It’s endless, and [00:49:25] you’re in a great place to go and achieve whatever it is you want to achieve. If you think it’s somewhere else, [00:49:30] then I wish you well. No problem, no hard feelings, and maybe one day [00:49:35] there’ll be a really difficult moment for me. And I’ll just have to swallow that pill. But I want people to know [00:49:40] that there’s no glass ceilings here. You can do everything that you think you’re capable of doing. I don’t have [00:49:45] that attitude. I have that attitude. And I think that people love that, that [00:49:50] I’m here to support them whichever direction they’re looking to go. And I must [00:49:55] take my deal with them, is that it’s my job to make sure that they have the best opportunity [00:50:00] to grow. And if they think they’re going to outpace our growth [00:50:05] and our mindset and our attitude, then I wish them good luck.

[TRANSITION]: Do [00:50:10] you employ.

Rhona Eskander: People based on their values, or do you create a culture which makes them develop [00:50:15] their own.

[TRANSITION]: Values? Culture? Yeah.

Daniel Daggers: Nailed culture. I was I was a bit concerned [00:50:20] about culture because for many, many years people, people would describe me as egotistical. [00:50:25] They just didn’t understand me. And I was [00:50:30] a bit concerned as a, as a dominant male, that people who are very successful [00:50:35] wouldn’t want to join the business because I would overshadow them, when [00:50:40] in fact, it’s never been like that. I’ve always helped people in my life.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I.

Daniel Daggers: Like seeing other people succeed. [00:50:45] I feel there’s enough opportunity for me and for everyone else. So [00:50:50] culture is really important. So I would do things to create culture in my business that make [00:50:55] no financial sense. That’s how you create culture. To create a positive [00:51:00] culture, it has to be things that don’t make financial sense. So for instance, I remember when we [00:51:05] had a little office, there was four of us in the office, and someone [00:51:10] had a moment where I shut the door and I thought to myself, oh my goodness, there’s [00:51:15] four other people that are now relying on me. I’ve now got 30 more, but [00:51:20] they are relying on me. And I had that moment with myself where I got a bit nervous. [00:51:25] But every time someone walks into our office to see us, I made [00:51:30] sure that everyone got up. Everyone went to greet that person with a smile, introduced [00:51:35] their full name, and made a good impression on that person when they walked through that door. If anyone [00:51:40] comes into our office. To say hello. They will feel [00:51:45] positive energy because there is nothing worse. And I’ve sat in an office, [00:51:50] especially the small firm I worked in. There was a small open plan office, seven [00:51:55] people in a horseshoe shape, and when you’d walk in everyone was looking at you. It [00:52:00] is the worst feeling ever when people are looking at you and no one’s smiling. [00:52:05] And so now when people walk into our office, everyone gets up, says, hello. [00:52:10] Hi, pleasure to meet you. This is where I am. This is what I do. And the culture just manifests [00:52:15] from that, from greeting strangers and doing other things that make no [00:52:20] financial sense.

Rhona Eskander: The thing is, feeling is such an underrated trait. And you know, like the famous [00:52:25] quote says, people don’t care what you don’t remember, what you did, how you did it, they remember how you made them feel. [00:52:30] And I think it’s so true in any profession to be honest. And that’s something that, you know, [00:52:35] is typically very, very underrated. I wanted to ask you a little bit as well. So [00:52:40] talk to me about the Middle East because obviously like I’m Middle Eastern. So [00:52:45] I’m like super interested in this. What’s your view on Dubai as in like how did you [00:52:50] get involved. Do you think it’s, you know, booming even more so would you invest [00:52:55] there? Like I’m just curious to know, like in general, because I know Dubai is kind of like one of the other main places [00:53:00] you do work.

Daniel Daggers: Dubai is a cultural hub. It is a [00:53:05] financial hub and it will remain that way for the foreseeable future.

Payman Langroudi: Dubai [00:53:10] is a money laundering hub. It’s hilarious. You could, you can, you can [00:53:15] buy a £4 million house with cash in Dubai. [00:53:20]

Daniel Daggers: I’ve never actually tried that.

[TRANSITION]: Um, no no no no.

Daniel Daggers: I’ve heard stories, I’ve heard stories. [00:53:25] I have heard stories, but they’re KYC. Know your client and AML anti-money laundering [00:53:30] compliance, um, has become much more stringent and they’ve just come off the list. [00:53:35] They were the UAE was on the list that said it was a sensitive, sensitive part of the world. I [00:53:40] think that’s one of the ways to knock the UAE. I don’t think it’s like that anymore. [00:53:45] If they want a bustling community and a country to succeed, they have to be [00:53:50] KYC compliant, um, with the rest of the world. And I think I think they’re [00:53:55] getting there if they haven’t got there already, because I know it’s stringent.

Payman Langroudi: You know, money laundering sounds [00:54:00] like such a terrible thing. But, you know, there’s so many situations where you need to move money and [00:54:05] and regimes. Yeah yeah yeah yeah, yeah. Uh, Iran [00:54:10] is cut off from the whole global banking system with a despotic regime as well. [00:54:15] Yeah. People need to move money. It’s so when I say you [00:54:20] can do that in Dubai. Dubai is providing a service to the population of Iran.

Daniel Daggers: Yeah, but they can’t [00:54:25] they can’t continue to do that if that’s taken place or I don’t attract those kinds of [00:54:30] people because I’ve got public very public facing profile. So it’s great because [00:54:35] people people often like that won’t, won’t speak to me. The. To [00:54:40] your question about Dubai, it was a boom bust market. Okay. And if you go [00:54:45] to Dubai, when you get off the plane, you’re being hammered with marketing when it comes to real estate.

[TRANSITION]: Interesting. [00:54:50]

Daniel Daggers: Every post there’s a real estate poster, you know. So it [00:54:55] is very much a real estate tourism play. Um, I do think it’s got legs. [00:55:00] I think you’ll find that a lot of people. You have to think about the customer. If [00:55:05] our world is now much more dynamic and people are fleet of foot and contemporary, [00:55:10] and you can build your business online, where do you want to go? You want to go to a place where the weather [00:55:15] is good, the communication is good, i.e. internet, travel, roads, stuff [00:55:20] like that and where tax is cheap. If you look at the world, the cities [00:55:25] that and countries that are outperforming others are low tax states in the US. [00:55:30]

[TRANSITION]: So true.

Daniel Daggers: Okay, so I knew this was happening. I had a feeling of it. And so [00:55:35] I was in Dubai for three months. I went there for a week and I got locked in. It [00:55:40] was a nice place to get locked in. Weather was great and I told all my clients to buy there. Really? [00:55:45] Yeah, that was in 2000 and end of 2020, beginning 2020 [00:55:50] or something like that. So I made them a lot of money and it was obvious. It’s a no brainer. The thing about the market [00:55:55] is that at the moment when you have when you have boom markets, everyone [00:56:00] goes, well, I just need a piece of the action. So I’m just going to buy something, but it [00:56:05] doesn’t last forever. The boom never lasts forever. There’s always a yin to the yang. [00:56:10] There’s two sides to a coin, whatever you want to call it. And so it will slow. [00:56:15] One day it will slow. And you want to be caught with a great [00:56:20] asset, not a weak one. But people often don’t know what [00:56:25] that is, and they don’t care. They just want to buy be part of the party. So I’ve just acquired [00:56:30] a penthouse there for 30 something million dollars for a client, and we were very astute with our approach. [00:56:35] And you can’t replicate that property, which means it’s going to retain its value [00:56:40] for the foreseeable future. We just bought another villa for somebody for $43 [00:56:45] million. Can’t say where, but that is also something that’s very special, that’s hard to replicate. [00:56:50] And so yes, there’s still legs in Dubai. I think lots of people are going [00:56:55] to be continuing to set their businesses up there. Lots of contemporary wealth will be created there. [00:57:00] And then we’ll see what happens because. The taxman will always follow. [00:57:05]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Daniel Daggers: And people have to ask themselves whether or not they want to be chased by the taxman. [00:57:10] Or commit to it. So Dubai is a very [00:57:15] interesting place. We have a digital office there so we can transact there for clients, [00:57:20] and it will probably be one of the next places we would consider moving to.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [00:57:25] markets I’m interested in this story. Like what’s what is the person. You [00:57:30] don’t need to tell me the individual, but a story about someone who’s bought a crazy [00:57:35] house without even seeing it or.

Daniel Daggers: Oh, it’s happening. It’s happened before. I remember [00:57:40] selling a property to somebody in South Hampstead for 8 [00:57:45] or £9 million, where they relied on the time FaceTime. [00:57:50]

[TRANSITION]: Report.

Daniel Daggers: And my opinion. And [00:57:55] they bought the property.

[TRANSITION]: Were they happy they.

Daniel Daggers: Lived in Australia? Yeah. They’re still there. Are they happy? [00:58:00] Yes. I give good advice.

[TRANSITION]: Um, that’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Trust question, isn’t it? That’s during.

Daniel Daggers: Covid. [00:58:05] I had another client who needed to to rent a property. They had multiple kids. They were living in an apartment. They [00:58:10] needed a house. They couldn’t fly to London, but needed to rent something. So I did the legwork [00:58:15] and we rented a property for three years at £20,000 a week. Wow. So that’s just over £1 million a [00:58:20] year.

Rhona Eskander: I want to ask you something. Right. So I’m sitting here and I’m like, whoa. And or and like, I want all this property advice. [00:58:25]

[TRANSITION]: It’s all amazing.

Rhona Eskander: And like, I’m like, this is amazing.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Do you ever get [00:58:30] scared about falling? I’m talking about, like, you’re so at the peak, right? And I feel like. No, but [00:58:35] do you ever get scared about falling? No, no.

Daniel Daggers: I’m too honest to fall.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I [00:58:40] work too hard.

Daniel Daggers: I’m too.

[TRANSITION]: Determined. I throw something at you that’s beyond.

Rhona Eskander: Beyond [00:58:45] your control.

[TRANSITION]: Yes, it will.

Daniel Daggers: And I will have to do what I need to do to.

[TRANSITION]: Get [00:58:50] through it, to get.

Daniel Daggers: Through it. It’s what I do is in my control. What other people do is not in my control. [00:58:55] And I’m not scared of falling. You cannot fear falling. [00:59:00] You have to keep going. Are you fine? Pardon my.

Payman Langroudi: French. [00:59:05]

[TRANSITION]: I don’t think I’m.

Rhona Eskander: I don’t think I’m high enough from for falling. But there are moments [00:59:10] in my.

[TRANSITION]: Life that’s your impression.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not alone. No.

Daniel Daggers: That’s your. But that’s your.

[TRANSITION]: Impression. I’m [00:59:15] not.

Rhona Eskander: High enough. There’s so many regrets that I have of not my self-limiting beliefs [00:59:20] have, like, stopped me from doing things that I want to do.

Daniel Daggers: Let’s put it into perspective.

[TRANSITION]: Um.

Daniel Daggers: You’re phenomenally [00:59:25] successful. Okay, okay, I will say the same thing. If you ask me, I [00:59:30] would go, yeah, I’m, you know, I’m working. I’m just working. I’m just doing what I [00:59:35] think I can do. That’s all I’m doing. Okay? And if I said the same [00:59:40] thing to you, you would say the same thing, which is what you did, which is like, I’m doing okay because [00:59:45] you have a vision of what greatness looks like. Yeah, I know, and you’re attacking that vision, [00:59:50] so am I. That vision looks very different to what I’m doing today, but [00:59:55] in other people’s eyes, I’m phenomenally successful. But I know that I still go home to my apartment. I’ve still [01:00:00] got a leak that I need to deal with and issues that I need to deal with. And my vision of true success is something [01:00:05] different.

[TRANSITION]: What is your.

Rhona Eskander: Vision of true.

[TRANSITION]: Success?

Daniel Daggers: I think that my view [01:00:10] for people is that people are capable of doing amazing things.

[TRANSITION]: People are optimistic. [01:00:15]

Daniel Daggers: I think it’s reality. I think it’s reality. [01:00:20] I think that if you gave people the right education, gave people the right support, gave [01:00:25] people an opportunity, really loved people and embraced them.

[TRANSITION]: True.

Daniel Daggers: They can [01:00:30] achieve more than they think that they can achieve. They just don’t know it. No one’s path the [01:00:35] way.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Daniel Daggers: Nobody. I produce content on social media. There [01:00:40] is no reason why I should produce content on social media. No one else was doing it. Now there are agents out there that are producing [01:00:45] content on social media who are 21 years of age and selling homes for £20 million. [01:00:50] You don’t know who they are because they haven’t built a big enough profile yet. Could that have happened ten years [01:00:55] ago? No. Could it have happened five years ago? Unlikely. Could it happen 20 years ago? No. [01:01:00] I’m a kid from who came from local authority housing that had an average education [01:01:05] that wasn’t excelling, that people would not have said he’s going [01:01:10] to be successful. Nothing said to anybody except for being relatively [01:01:15] good at football that I was going to be successful. Nothing. Yeah. [01:01:20] No one expected anything from me. Yeah, but [01:01:25] a couple of years ago, I won an award. Yeah, that I had no involvement in. [01:01:30] But I won an award. I didn’t sponsor them. Yeah. Put ads in the magazine. [01:01:35] Yeah, I won an award because the effort and results I put in of [01:01:40] real estate residential real estate advisory of the year that Spear’s wealth. And [01:01:45] I got up on stage with no tie in a beard. Ten years ago, that would never [01:01:50] have happened, and a mixed race background that would never have happened. Remy [01:01:55] in my business is a young black girl. She’s 23, highly educated, super [01:02:00] intelligent, hungry, determined. She’s one of only [01:02:05] a handful of young black females in our industry. She’s sold three, 4 or £5 [01:02:10] million homes. Because you’ve had that opportunity five years ago. No. No way. [01:02:15] Jose. Ten years ago. Absolutely not. Today, yes. People are capable [01:02:20] of doing amazing things. Everybody. Everyone.

Rhona Eskander: But they need. But the thing is that they [01:02:25] need so much of what you said. And the thing is, is the love, the support, the acceptance, the education. [01:02:30] Like I often bring up Gabor Maté, I’m sure you know his work. And, [01:02:35] you know, he talks a lot about addiction. You know, that’s his thing. And the reason why I got into his work, he actually changed my [01:02:40] view because he has so much compassion for the situation that people are in. Like, for example, [01:02:45] addicts. Right? You know, there’s such a negative narrative around addicts and there’s such [01:02:50] a lack of understanding of why they end up addicts. And I think the way that he broke it down, [01:02:55] it’s interesting because now I live in Notting Hill, so when I see someone that’s like clearly been injecting [01:03:00] at like 8:00 in the morning, that’s like sat outside the tube station, my mind [01:03:05] has so much more empathy for that person because they were never given love, compassion, education, [01:03:10] opportunities and all those things. But it’s an idealistic lookout, like not everybody is going to.

Payman Langroudi: Think [01:03:15] about those people before you.

[TRANSITION]: Before those people.

Rhona Eskander: Like I think there was like the narrative that he was a loser. [01:03:20] Like, no, not not even like that. They’re a loser. But I was just like, think about it.

Daniel Daggers: You don’t think about history.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And you don’t [01:03:25] think about history. And you’re just like, oh, that person is an addict because they wanted to get high.

[TRANSITION]: All [01:03:30] the time. I get high. It’s it’s it’s different.

Daniel Daggers: It’s one dimensional. You look at the [01:03:35] one dimensional element, which is where they are today. Yeah. How they’re looking like today [01:03:40] and what they look like in the future. You don’t ever look back. Yeah. You don’t go. I wonder why [01:03:45] that’s someone’s son. That’s someone’s daughter. I wonder what’s happened to [01:03:50] get there. Right. So you start to empathise more. But empathising greatly doesn’t [01:03:55] mean you are better.

[TRANSITION]: Totally. It doesn’t mean you’re better.

Daniel Daggers: It doesn’t mean that you’re making a difference. So [01:04:00] in my life, I want to make a difference. And the only way I can do that [01:04:05] is by putting positivity infotainment out into this world [01:04:10] that may inspire or enable other people to be the best version [01:04:15] of themselves. That is my responsibility. I can speak to hundreds of thousands of people, [01:04:20] or maybe millions one day. What do I want as my legacy? What do I want [01:04:25] from my life? Do I want to go down as the guy who sold the most expensive properties? [01:04:30] Well, how is that going to help anyone in the future, isn’t it? It will be forgotten about. [01:04:35] I feel like the.

Payman Langroudi: Second you’re in that garyvee moment from when he jumped from wine selling [01:04:40] to just.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, Gary.

Payman Langroudi: Gary teaching.

Daniel Daggers: People. It’s funny you say that. It’s funny you say that. Gary [01:04:45] V I stumbled across his content ten years ago, which instigated [01:04:50] my growth. Really? Yeah. Really? Yeah. I went to see a talk that he did. [01:04:55] I know people that work with him. There’s some he.

Payman Langroudi: Gets a lot of pleasure from inspiring others, right [01:05:00] I.

[TRANSITION]: Think.

Daniel Daggers: The way I look at the world is that information is no longer [01:05:05] that valuable because everyone’s got.

[TRANSITION]: Access to.

Daniel Daggers: Information. So if [01:05:10] information is no longer that valuable, it’s the human being that delivers the information [01:05:15] that becomes the important part of the delivery of it. Okay. [01:05:20] Do I want to be a person has a positive impact on this world, even though everyone’s [01:05:25] got access to the information? Yeah I do. It gives me [01:05:30] a great feeling. I feel that I’m doing good. And if I go out into this [01:05:35] world and produce content or do a Netflix show or build a business, I feel [01:05:40] that I’m doing it for the right reasons, not because I want to go and buy Bentley. I drive [01:05:45] a nice car, I live in a nice apartment. I see people with humongous homes and [01:05:50] I wouldn’t say they were happier than me, but I do things for the right reason [01:05:55] and that’s why I want to have a real positive impact on this world. Because I think goodness breeds goodness [01:06:00] 100%.

Rhona Eskander: My question for you is, I know you can’t say too much. How did Netflix [01:06:05] come along?

Daniel Daggers: I was producing content on social media.

Rhona Eskander: So when Netflix approached you and [01:06:10] that was that. Yeah. And literally and now there’s a show coming out.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: That’s all we can say.

[TRANSITION]: About it, right? You [01:06:15] put out what.

Daniel Daggers: You put out in this world.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, did you know someone did know that they [01:06:20] contacted you cold and say, like, I.

Daniel Daggers: Love your stuff. The thing is, is that when you are one of the first people to do something, I [01:06:25] was one of the first real estate agents that I’m aware of. There may be someone else that I’m aware [01:06:30] of who was producing content on social media. I captured a lot of people’s attention. [01:06:35] There are very famous people that follow me. I’m pretty sure that Mark Zuckerberg [01:06:40] has seen some of my content.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Daniel Daggers: Okay, I know Daniel, uh, Daniel [01:06:45] Ek from Spotify follows me. Okay. When you are the first to do something irrelevant [01:06:50] of black sheep and putting people’s noses out, whatever is you people [01:06:55] see who you are. They see what you do.

Payman Langroudi: What do you think the confidence came [01:07:00] from? Have you always been confident because, you know, you were saying, you know, [01:07:05] you you went to Knight Frank and became the top seller. That takes a confidence. Confidence. [01:07:10] And then and then to start. Is it.

Daniel Daggers: Confidence? I don’t think so. Well, well.

Payman Langroudi: It’s something you know you’re.

[TRANSITION]: Definitely [01:07:15] confident. You’re definitely.

Payman Langroudi: Confident now.

Daniel Daggers: But I’m confident that about doing it’s different. [01:07:20] Like there is there is perceived confidence right where you know I [01:07:25] think I’m confident and I go around and I pretend to be confident, but really I shrivel when I go [01:07:30] home or there is doing the work. And [01:07:35] grinding every day. I’ve worked 25 years. And I work [01:07:40] from the minute I wake up till I come home at a pace that is ferocious and [01:07:45] I want to be the best and do the best at everything that I do. My mom drove that into me. You could [01:07:50] eat off the floor. My mom was so precise about everything that she [01:07:55] did that she made me feel the same way. And it’s a detriment because sometimes, you know, you work [01:08:00] to the bone for something because you’re trying to achieve these levels all the time. But [01:08:05] my confidence comes from doing. And being at service [01:08:10] and getting better. And when you are really [01:08:15] committed to that. You enter into rooms. Very confident [01:08:20] I don’t even feel about. I don’t even think about confidence in my life. I just do me. And [01:08:25] it sounds weird, but when you are so dedicated to something and you’ve [01:08:30] tried to refine yourself as much as possible. That you just do you. That’s [01:08:35] it. You just do you and it’s out of doing.

Rhona Eskander: My [01:08:40] question for you, though, is this. There’s so much dedication, love and passion [01:08:45] into what you’re talking about, particularly with your work. Do you want that to reflect? We don’t [01:08:50] need to go into any details, but do you want that to reflect in your personal life? Have you ever thought how you’re going to like, I love my [01:08:55] friends.

[TRANSITION]: I love my.

Daniel Daggers: Friends that you can like, you can never imagine. I love my my [01:09:00] close friends. I would do anything for my close friends.

[TRANSITION]: Anything family. [01:09:05]

Daniel Daggers: Family as well. Yeah, sure. Every birthday I fly to go and see my parents every birthday and [01:09:10] I try and surprise them. And I care for them tremendously. But it’s hard.

[TRANSITION]: And what about.

Rhona Eskander: Would you like [01:09:15] to have your own family and have thought about how it would interfere with your work?

Daniel Daggers: I think having a family, [01:09:20] if you want to have one and if you’re capable to have one, is the greatest thing [01:09:25] that you could ever do. And I had this conversation earlier today with somebody else.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:09:30]

Rhona Eskander: And what and do you think that something’s got to give when you do have that family. Yeah. Do [01:09:35] you worry about that.

Payman Langroudi: No, I don’t see Daniel as a warrior.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Have [01:09:40] you ever had. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: I don’t.

Rhona Eskander: Have you ever had very low point? Have you [01:09:45] ever had low points like.

[TRANSITION]: There’s, like, so.

Rhona Eskander: Much positivity and like, you know, what’s the.

[TRANSITION]: Lowest [01:09:50] point? Yeah. What’s the.

Daniel Daggers: Lowest point? Yeah. Well, this morning the car didn’t have.

[TRANSITION]: No. [01:09:55]

Daniel Daggers: Um, look.

Payman Langroudi: But not just. [01:10:00] No no.

[TRANSITION]: No no, no point comes.

Payman Langroudi: To mind.

Daniel Daggers: I’ll explain. I’ve had moments [01:10:05] in my life, a particular moment, particular six months. Where? I [01:10:10] wasn’t performing as well as I had hoped at work. It wasn’t the effort and it [01:10:15] wasn’t the skill. A lot of it was just in relation to the market. I didn’t feel loved [01:10:20] by the people around me. I was, I had been dating somebody who [01:10:25] broke up with me out of the blue. When the signals were green, green, green, it went red [01:10:30] and I questioned. Why? [01:10:35] And as a black sheep you’re often [01:10:40] put in boxes. He’s egotistical. It’s all about [01:10:45] him. He’s Mr. Arrogant. I wasn’t any of that. Not in my eyes. [01:10:50] But had a moment of going. What [01:10:55] am I doing this for? Right. And I shared [01:11:00] it with my best friend and my parents, and I was like, [01:11:05] I don’t understand why this has happened. And I had a moment to reflect, [01:11:10] and I sold a property for over $100 million.

Payman Langroudi: 100 million for one property? [01:11:15] Yeah.

Daniel Daggers: You sold. I sold a property for over $100 million. It was three years worth of work, and [01:11:20] it was the saddest moment of my life. Now, you wouldn’t expect that. You’d be like, ah, you’re [01:11:25] the king of the castle. 0.0001% of the world’s agency [01:11:30] population will ever be in a position to do that. But I realised [01:11:35] how insignificant it was. To my life in that moment, I [01:11:40] didn’t have anyone to share it with. I didn’t feel appreciated. [01:11:45] Why did I take Claudia out yesterday? I say crap because I want her to feel appreciated. [01:11:50] I care for her. I care for her. I care for the people that work with me. Like [01:11:55] incredibly. And I learnt my lessons from that and [01:12:00] I became much stronger from it. And there were moments when [01:12:05] I left my previous firm. I went to see my mum and dad. My [01:12:10] dad’s a softie. He’s a teddy bear. My dad. You could put anywhere. He is the just. Just [01:12:15] got the most amazing way with people. He’s just adorable. My dad, my mum is tough [01:12:20] and my parents gave me, thankfully, this yin [01:12:25] and yang that’s gone through my life. My mother gave me a backbone, a backbone, [01:12:30] be strong. And my father gave me the skill of human being, [01:12:35] really human with people. And it was the greatest combination [01:12:40] that I could ever wish for, and it had nothing to do with me. So [01:12:45] the best thing about me, there’s two things. One is everything that my parents created for me and [01:12:50] my name. My name is a great name. Daniel is a great name.

[TRANSITION]: Good name, good name, great name, [01:12:55] great name.

Daniel Daggers: It’s got nothing to do with me. I didn’t do that.

[TRANSITION]: My parents did that.

Daniel Daggers: Right. So like [01:13:00] this. These are the things that that shape me, that allows me to.

Payman Langroudi: Become like [01:13:05] Gary Vegan. But the opposite way around with him is that the the mum and the dad. Yeah. But [01:13:10] yeah, interesting that, you know, the quality of the [01:13:15] work. Yeah. And the work could be the content creation all the way [01:13:20] to taking Nicole. Was it Nicole? Claudia. Claudia. Claudia for lunch [01:13:25] yesterday. The quality of the work, thankfully, these days [01:13:30] is what makes us. And yes, you know, it hasn’t always been that way. Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Daggers: People [01:13:35] locked out.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. People locked out. Locked out. Nowadays you’re exposed [01:13:40] by your work 100%.

Daniel Daggers: Now you have to go and show.

Payman Langroudi: People the upside [01:13:45] or the downside.

Daniel Daggers: Yeah, 100%. Now you have to show people your expertise. If you don’t, someone else will. [01:13:50] So now you have to be excellent because someone else will just take that business.

Payman Langroudi: From [01:13:55] this property life that you’ve got. Do you see yourself coming out [01:14:00] of property?

Daniel Daggers: I’m not a property person. I’m a people person. Yeah, I could do dentistry if I [01:14:05] could. That’s if I could learn the skills.

Payman Langroudi: To you now. Yeah. You could be having this conversation about any business. [01:14:10]

Daniel Daggers: You could put me anywhere in the world. Yeah, or service industry. I think that what we [01:14:15] could build, we could build for any service industry practice. Yeah. I just love [01:14:20] people. It sounds.

Payman Langroudi: It’s obvious.

[TRANSITION]: It’s obvious?

Daniel Daggers: Yeah. Okay. Look, I’m good, I’m pleased. [01:14:25] And I think my clients see that. And my colleagues see that I love people, I love it, it’s [01:14:30] like a it’s like oxygen for me.

Payman Langroudi: So what does the future hold then?

Daniel Daggers: What [01:14:35] does it hold? Yeah. Think of the wildest thing that’s positive that could ever happen [01:14:40] to me. That will happen for me. That and think of like something that [01:14:45] isn’t great that I mean seriously, I don’t know. So [01:14:50] let’s put it this way. I did something quite fun with the office. I said to the guys, uh, every [01:14:55] Monday we have a meeting. And I said to him, okay, I want you to know that you have no idea [01:15:00] how successful you may be setting up a benchmarking yourself and saying, hey, [01:15:05] here’s the goal. I want to make half £1 million this year. And I would say to somebody, someone said that to me [01:15:10] in the business and I would say, okay, cool. Why? Why half a million? [01:15:15] Why not a million? Why not? Oh, I don’t really know. Okay, so I stood [01:15:20] up in front of everybody and I said, listen, do you guys know what your future looks like five, ten years from [01:15:25] now? Bearing in mind the world is changing at a rapid pace? Do you know what it looks like? I don’t, [01:15:30] but let me ask you a question. Who here wants to bet against me being in a marvel [01:15:35] music movie? Who wants to bet against me being in a marvel movie?

[TRANSITION]: Dead.

Daniel Daggers: Go [01:15:40] for it. Two people put their hand up. There was. I [01:15:45] don’t know how many people in that room, 20, 30 people in that room. So are you telling me that anything is possible? [01:15:50] I find that quite interesting.

Rhona Eskander: People find it, but [01:15:55] people think anything is possible for people that are not themselves. That’s what I’m saying. Like self-limiting beliefs are like, they look at [01:16:00] you, they find you inspiring, they know what you’ve achieved, they know you’ve done it. It’s like Daniel can do anything. [01:16:05] But when it comes to themselves, it’s self-limiting. They’re like, but I can’t do [01:16:10] it.

[TRANSITION]: Which is why.

Daniel Daggers: You have to be a positive force in their life and you have to.

Rhona Eskander: Have that [01:16:15] confidence. You know, you.

Daniel Daggers: Need to be a positive force in other people’s.

[TRANSITION]: Lives, 100%.

Daniel Daggers: That’s why I [01:16:20] say I want to have a positive force. Everybody can do something that they don’t think they’re capable of doing [01:16:25] within parameters. I’m never going to be a professional footballer again, okay? [01:16:30] That’s never going to happen. But I can do other things that I’m physically [01:16:35] capable and mentally capable of achieving. Well, you need people [01:16:40] to push you, support you, enable you, you know, [01:16:45] inspire you. Why not be that that person in your friendship group? Why not [01:16:50] be that person online.

Rhona Eskander: Or personal at work?

Daniel Daggers: But when? But when I was a kid, no one ever said that to me. Yeah, [01:16:55] but thankfully, my parents gave me self-belief.

Payman Langroudi: You. Are you worried about being [01:17:00] recognised?

Daniel Daggers: More rarely recognised, does it?

Payman Langroudi: Does it not get in your way? [01:17:05]

Daniel Daggers: Not really I love people.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, not.

Daniel Daggers: Not really. But I mean, look, there’s going to be [01:17:10] times where people are going to say, hey, look, can I have a picture or something? And I’ll be like, [01:17:15] sure. And I might not want, you know, I might not feel up to it or whatever it may be, but the privilege of being [01:17:20] in that place is is far greater.

Rhona Eskander: It’s like when you go to like, the Dental stuff and people are like, Dental [01:17:25] stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Would you like to be recognised in the street?

[TRANSITION]: I’d love to. She’s already got you, already get you.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:17:30] like it?

[TRANSITION]: I love it because, like, even.

Rhona Eskander: Like, you know, sometimes on the tube and someone will go, excuse [01:17:35] me, I watch your TikToks. Do you see why I like it? You know, because I’m like. He’s [01:17:40] like, he wouldn’t like it. Yeah, like, because, you know.

[TRANSITION]: Fair enough, fair enough.

Rhona Eskander: Payman made a really good point, actually. [01:17:45] On another podcast, he goes, I think having a really famous name, but not really famous, um, face [01:17:50] is really quite interesting. Who was the example you gave? You said like where people know the name.

Payman Langroudi: Stephen King or something.

Rhona Eskander: And [01:17:55] then. Yeah, but.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But the thing is that, look, I go to a Dental [01:18:00] conference on loads of people say hi and all that, but then in the street no one knows me and [01:18:05] I like that. I enjoy that. And in fact, I was a bit worried about this show here because your reach. I suddenly thought, [01:18:10] oh, people, start fucking up.

Rhona Eskander: Do you know what’s so hilarious, though, is that Payman said to me that some people are like, [01:18:15] we’re like making comments or trolling him, saying that he was using me for the profile. Do you remember [01:18:20] when you told me that people are like.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, I’ve got.

Daniel Daggers: I’ve got something funny to tell you guys about trolling. [01:18:25] I got a message from somebody, okay, saying, why [01:18:30] are you pretending to be posh when you’re really a chav? The day [01:18:35] later, I got a message to someone else saying, why are you pretending to be a chav when you’re really posh? [01:18:40]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. You cannot. You just can’t please anyone.

Daniel Daggers: Like, that’s not the that’s not. [01:18:45]

[TRANSITION]: The point of this.

Rhona Eskander: You do. And you’re damned if you don’t.

[TRANSITION]: Exactly right.

Daniel Daggers: Exactly right. But but [01:18:50] there’s still the opportunity far outweighs the downside. Yeah. The [01:18:55] opportunity far is and I’m very I’ve got a lot of gratitude for that. The people that follow me, I like, [01:19:00] I love I think that’s wicked. I think that’s absolutely wicked.

Rhona Eskander: We, um, I want to end [01:19:05] on kind of like two different things because as I’m hearing you, um, you have now, [01:19:10] you’re now in a space working with some of the wealthiest people in the world. And although you’re having [01:19:15] a direct impact on the people that you’re working with and your colleagues [01:19:20] and people that would benefit as well in their career, what’s the [01:19:25] argument for people, though, that can’t afford the housing? What about the people that you know are looking for [01:19:30] property, like, you know, young people now, you know, Gen Z, etc. are like, we can’t even afford a house, a [01:19:35] flat. We probably will never own anything in our lifetime. Do you ever feel that you have [01:19:40] a duty of care for those people, or do you ever feel that you know you maybe want to do something for [01:19:45] those that aren’t in the kind of 1% of the world?

Daniel Daggers: So first and foremost, I’m doing [01:19:50] a job that millions of other people does. Yeah, do does whatever [01:19:55] it may be. Okay. And so I’m there to deliver a service. And I’ve worked my way from local authority [01:20:00] housing to where I am today. Um. It may not be. We might if our [01:20:05] world is changing, which it is. This is a bit of a like a wider view from [01:20:10] an optics point of view. We grew up in a world where we were told that we should buy real [01:20:15] estate and get on the ladder as quickly as possible. There’s been very little growth in the UK when it [01:20:20] comes to real estate values for a while, so a question I’ve got to ask. The question I would ask the people that [01:20:25] work with me and myself is ten years ago, if you would have invested your money in a business [01:20:30] and stayed at home. Learned some skills and be [01:20:35] empowered. You may be in a position to now afford to [01:20:40] buy a home. So you’ve walked away from something that the world would tell you to do. To [01:20:45] do something else. Because your opportunity now is to build a business. Because you can build a business now [01:20:50] much faster, much better than ever before. So maybe the opportunity has changed. [01:20:55] Maybe the opportunity has changed. I think that we should recognise that it may [01:21:00] not be for me. For instance, I don’t own hundreds of apartments.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Daniel Daggers: Thousands [01:21:05] of apartments. That might not be my opportunity to to to work that way and do that [01:21:10] and be as privileged to have that. There may be opportunity elsewhere. So I don’t think everyone [01:21:15] has to own a property. Yeah, yeah. It depends on who you are. How [01:21:20] can we help people when I do my very best to do that. So we [01:21:25] built an online course to enable anybody to take, which will give them [01:21:30] sufficient skill and knowledge to go and get a job in a state agency or [01:21:35] build their presence online, because you don’t really need a license to work in the UK [01:21:40] and being a state agent super quickly. So [01:21:45] I’d like to think that we’re pretty balanced. But I want to do more. And [01:21:50] the thing about wanting to do more is that I need to make sure that my business is successful [01:21:55] enough, that I can invest my time and money into doing more for more people. I can’t [01:22:00] do it at the same time because I wouldn’t have the finance, I wouldn’t have the [01:22:05] time. And so that’s a that’s just a balance that I’ll try and find over the next few [01:22:10] years. But I think that if I have more influence and more money and more time, I’ll be able to do more good [01:22:15] things for more people.

[TRANSITION]: I love.

Payman Langroudi: That. Have you have you learned any lessons from the high [01:22:20] net worth types, the billionaires.

Daniel Daggers: That they’re very diligent. What they say is what [01:22:25] they’re going to do. In my experience, they are very kind and they often don’t want [01:22:30] to shout about the support they give people because they can be taken advantage of, [01:22:35] but they want things done efficiently. Time is more valuable than money, let’s put it that way. [01:22:40]

Rhona Eskander: My last question for you if you met your [01:22:45] 20 year old self now let’s go 15. If you met your 15 year old self, what would you tell yourself? Knowing [01:22:50] what you know now?

[TRANSITION]: Keep going.

Daniel Daggers: Yeah, believe in yourself and keep going.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Daniel Daggers: Be [01:22:55] aware of your surroundings. But believe in yourself and [01:23:00] keep going.

[TRANSITION]: Amazing.

Rhona Eskander: Thank you so much, Daniel. It’s been absolutely [01:23:05] incredible. Love always having you feel almost like a burst of energy. Really, really appreciate it. And we can’t [01:23:10] wait to see you on Netflix too.

[TRANSITION]: Hahahahahahahahaha thank you for the opportunity.

Payman Langroudi: I look forward to seeing what [01:23:15] happens to you in the next five, ten years.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I know, and you can say he came on nine movies.

[TRANSITION]: I could just stand down. [01:23:20]

Payman Langroudi: Well, absolutely. I feel like you’re going to move on from, uh, properties to to many other things. [01:23:25] It’s very.

[TRANSITION]: Interesting. Next. Garyvee.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: All right. Thank you, thank you, thank you. [01:23:30]

Prav Solanki: You know, what can we do to get this patient over the line? Don’t tell them to go and think about [00:00:05] it. If they tell you they need to think about it, then that’s our opportunity to [00:00:10] ask them, okay. While you are going to think about it. Prav is there anything that I haven’t mentioned [00:00:15] today that’s going to help you make that decision? I feel like perhaps I’ve not explained myself [00:00:20] clearly, and that’s why you do need to go away and think about it. Is there any other information [00:00:25] I can help you with that is going to help making that decision a lot easier. [00:00:30] Have that conversation while the patient’s in. So you given the treatment plan [00:00:35] they take it away. You follow up that treatment plan. How long do you follow it follow [00:00:40] it up for. Are you following up for a minimum of two years? If they don’t go ahead, at what cadence [00:00:45] and frequency are they? Are the follow ups. What type of communication channels? Email, text [00:00:50] message? What are we using here? And then are you utilising technologies [00:00:55] such as loom to send them a summary of that treatment [00:01:00] plan in a video format best delivered via the clinician elevates your conversion [00:01:05] rate ever so much.

[VOICE]: This [00:01:10] is Dental Leaders. The [00:01:15] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:01:20] Your hosts. Payman Langroudi [00:01:25] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Hello and welcome to the Dental [00:01:30] Leaders podcast Prav Solanki here. And this is going to be another [00:01:35] solo episode, and I’m just back on [00:01:40] the Monday morning after my TCO course that I’ve just delivered for [00:01:45] IIs Academy over in Surrey had around 21 delegates [00:01:50] there, and I always learn stuff when I deliver a course. [00:01:55] I also change every course as well. You know, um, what I taught [00:02:00] on the TCO course last year is, is different [00:02:05] to what I taught this year, and the core fundamentals of it were the same, but [00:02:10] it was different because I get new ideas, I speak to more practice [00:02:15] owners, I learn about the little problems and nuances that they face. [00:02:20] And then as a consequence of that, I switch up my content and I’m terrible [00:02:25] for it. So I’ll give you a simple example. I was [00:02:30] on the train on my way to Weybridge the night [00:02:35] before the course. My presentation from last year was done, [00:02:40] so I could have just rocked up that morning and delivered the course, [00:02:45] but I had an idea that popped into my head how could I sell [00:02:50] dentistry? Or how could I explain sales in a [00:02:55] different way, in a way that my delegates would find it easier to [00:03:00] understand? Anyway, an idea popped into my head and I thought I could do it using [00:03:05] the analogy of supermarkets, baked beans, and commodities. [00:03:10] So I changed my. I changed like 30% of my presentation. [00:03:15] I changed the overall theme of my presentation and hence [00:03:20] changed the whole course.

Prav Solanki: Was it better 100%? Did the [00:03:25] delegates understand more? Absolutely. Did the delegates engage more? [00:03:30] Without question. Was it worth me staying up all [00:03:35] night to do that, waking up at five in the morning to finish the presentation [00:03:40] off and then deliver a presentation that I wasn’t quite [00:03:45] sure how it was going to go because it was a new idea and I hadn’t run it past anyone. It [00:03:50] was a risk, but well, well worth it. And the purpose of today’s podcast [00:03:55] really is to just, I guess for those out there who are [00:04:00] sort of professional speakers or getting on that speaking [00:04:05] circuit, I think one of the things and I can’t speak for everyone. Right. But one of the things [00:04:10] for me, I think it’s a bit like a woman going to a party. [00:04:15] And hasn’t got a new dress to wear. Right. If I’m delivering [00:04:20] the same presentation a year later, six months later, I want [00:04:25] to make sure that I’m bringing something new to the game, right? If you’re going [00:04:30] to a party and you think, flipping heck, everyone’s seen this dress or everyone’s seen this outfit, that’s feedback [00:04:35] I get anyway. Might be completely wrong. I need to go out and buy a new this, that and the other right? [00:04:40] And I think the same comes to me when I’m presenting content. [00:04:45] I don’t want to present the same stuff over and over and over again.

Prav Solanki: And bearing [00:04:50] in mind I’m learning from practices every day, I step into one practice and learn about a [00:04:55] problem that didn’t exist. I fix that problem and I bring that to the surface, right? I [00:05:00] walk into another practice, and perhaps I figure out a different way of solving [00:05:05] the same problem, or they have different HR nuances, or they have different marketing [00:05:10] challenges or patient communication challenges. Right after having been [00:05:15] in this game for 16 years, I am learning new shit every [00:05:20] single day, and I believe I should be bringing that to the forefront of my [00:05:25] content. And a lot of speakers that I see do the same thing, right? A lot of speakers that I speak [00:05:30] to try to bring new material to the table, and that in [00:05:35] itself is a bit of a challenge. Right? So later on this year, next month, [00:05:40] I’m delivering a one hour session for Clearcorrect [00:05:45] at the Millennium Point in Birmingham. Right. Probably the best [00:05:50] place I’ve ever spoken at as a venue, but I’m there for the [00:05:55] second year round. I can’t just rock up and deliver the same stuff I could and I [00:06:00] could get away with it, but I’ve got to bring something new to the table, I really do, and I [00:06:05] think that’s, you know, that’s one of the challenges that we face as speakers. [00:06:10] But I think also as practices. Right. And I want to I’m going [00:06:15] to share some stuff from my own course content. Because this [00:06:20] is about bringing something new to the table, which is when it comes [00:06:25] to selling dentistry.

Prav Solanki: Selling your treatment or [00:06:30] selling your service. What’s really important? Is [00:06:35] that, however you articulate that, that you stand out. And it becomes [00:06:40] more important, bringing something new to the table when everyone else is [00:06:45] doing the same shit. And what I mean by that is the fact that [00:06:50] dentistry is becoming more and more and more commoditized as [00:06:55] life goes on, as time goes on and people are reinventing the wheel, right? Just [00:07:00] to stay ahead of the game, I’m going to give you a couple of simple examples. Clear [00:07:05] aligners. Invisalign. Clear. Correct? Sure. Smile. Spark. Call [00:07:10] it what you want. It’s a piece of plastic that you stick in your teeth. It straightens your teeth [00:07:15] and helps patients go from crooked and gappy to straight. It’s as simple as that, right? [00:07:20] But the problem is it’s being treated like a raw material at the moment, [00:07:25] like like a pure commodity. And part of it is our fault [00:07:30] as marketeers and our fault as practice owners, because we’re trying [00:07:35] these little creative strategies to say, hey, come to my practice [00:07:40] for Invisalign, or come to my practice for bonding, or come to my practice for implants, [00:07:45] right? And marketeers like me are tasked with doing things differently, doing [00:07:50] things more creatively, changing the game or whatever it is. And we are all [00:07:55] fighting for the same patients. But what are we selling that patient? And this is where my [00:08:00] concept of baked beans came into my TCO course.

Prav Solanki: Right. Because I’m going [00:08:05] to share some of that content. Now imagine you went and bought a tin of baked beans [00:08:10] from Harrods, or you bought a tin of baked beans from Tesco, [00:08:15] or a tin of baked beans from Aldi. And let’s assume for argument’s [00:08:20] sake, all three places sell Heinz baked beans. [00:08:25] Yeah, you crack that tin open, you are getting exactly the [00:08:30] same thing. It’s a commodity, right? Stick it on your toast. It’ll [00:08:35] taste the same. But why would somebody pay more at another place? [00:08:40] Right? It’s the process. It’s the experience. It’s what you do with [00:08:45] those beings. It’s the nuances. And that’s the same with your practice. [00:08:50] Because now patients think that when they buy clear aligners, they’re just [00:08:55] buying a product and they’re not buying the service that comes along with it. [00:09:00] And so if somebody wants straight teeth and let’s not beat around the bush, Invisalign [00:09:05] is the premium or leading brand in the world. So let’s say a patient wants [00:09:10] Invisalign. So they look online. They see your practice, someone else’s practice, and someone else’s [00:09:15] practice. But the end result is a piece of plastic that comes from a lab in the States, or wherever [00:09:20] it comes from. It gets delivered. You chuck it in your mouth, change it every couple of weeks. [00:09:25] End of the treatment. You’ve got straight teeth, so why should they pay you £1,000 more [00:09:30] than the next guy down the road? Right? And especially [00:09:35] when there’s so many open days and offers out there at the moment, it becomes [00:09:40] a challenge.

Prav Solanki: And so Invisalign is becoming a commodity. Do you know what [00:09:45] patients are doing now? And this didn’t happen? Well, it did, but not [00:09:50] as much, right? If I wind the clock back, a even just 18 [00:09:55] months patient would pick up the phone. They’d have a conversation. Interested [00:10:00] in Invisalign changing my teeth? You’d have a little bit of a conversation about them, as [00:10:05] you know. How long have they been thinking about it? Why now? How has it impacted [00:10:10] your life? What does sunshine and rainbows look like? And give them some good [00:10:15] news that you can help them get there. Offer a complimentary consultation. Get them in with a clinician [00:10:20] or a TCO. Sell them the dream. Take a deposit. Rock and roll. Right? Maybe the finance [00:10:25] conversation is pay up front. Get a bit of a discount, give them a bit of finance. Whatever it is, get [00:10:30] them over the line done and dusted. What happens now? That same patient is [00:10:35] calling half a dozen practices, getting some quotes, getting [00:10:40] some ideas, and then what they’ll do is they’ll book 2 or 3 consultations [00:10:45] and then they’ll make a decision. And so part and parcel of what I teach [00:10:50] on my course is how do you make your experience memorable, [00:10:55] how do you stand out and how do you connect with [00:11:00] that human being.

Prav Solanki: And so the first part, honestly, the first part about this is [00:11:05] it’s mindset and it’s about human connection. It really [00:11:10] is about that human connection. And what I mean by that is simply this, [00:11:15] that as practices, as clinicians, as [00:11:20] CEOs, as salespeople, we’ve started to look [00:11:25] at human beings as objects. So instead of referring [00:11:30] to them as patients or as human beings, we’ve now started using language [00:11:35] like leads cases, aligner cases, [00:11:40] numbers fits. Right. So I want 25 [00:11:45] Invisalign cases. We’ve got 55 leads. We’ve got this [00:11:50] many numbers. Our conversion rate on Invisalign patients. Yeah, I [00:11:55] had five consults this morning and got three three of those leads converted. [00:12:00] And we often forget that behind every single one [00:12:05] of those patients that we’re seeing. And I think it’s important to step back to this. There’s a human [00:12:10] being and that human being. Has a [00:12:15] story, and that human being story is different from the next lead [00:12:20] and the next console. And unless we tailor our communication. [00:12:25] A follow up process and our conversation [00:12:30] around each human being. Someone else is going to snap that patient [00:12:35] up. So let’s let’s take patient. Let’s call him Steve. Right. Let’s take Steve. [00:12:40] And Steve calls three practices. He’s got crooked teeth. He’s [00:12:45] interested in Invisalign. And let’s assume he’s got somewhere between 3 to 4 [00:12:50] grand in his pocket. Got a rough idea of what Invisalign costs. And there’s a range, [00:12:55] but he’s ringing around because he wants the best deal, right? Because all he thinks is buying is a piece of plastic. [00:13:00]

Prav Solanki: So he rings. Practice A and practice A [00:13:05] says, yeah, absolutely. We do Invisalign. We’re well experienced. We’ve done loads [00:13:10] of these cases. I’ve got some before and afters. And Steve, if you’d like to book him for a complimentary [00:13:15] consultation, you can come in and see our TCO. No problem. [00:13:20] Steve says, let me think about it. Moves on to the next practice rings. Then [00:13:25] the other practice says the same stuff. But instead of saying you can book [00:13:30] in with TCO, says, oh, you can actually book in with the dentist. Who’s going to [00:13:35] do the Invisalign treatment? We don’t have a TCO here, so you can get straight to the dentist [00:13:40] and that’s going to be complimentary. So now what have we got? We’re [00:13:45] still selling tins of beans right? Heinz baked beans and one Heinz baked beans and the other. And [00:13:50] then the third practice, they call up and say, Steve, you’re in luck on this Friday, we’ve [00:13:55] got an open day. What that means is you can meet the dentist if you decide [00:14:00] to proceed with treatment on the day you get £250 off, we’ll throw [00:14:05] in some free whitening. Your retainers are covered, and we’ll also give you a hygiene [00:14:10] appointment all on us. And you get a small simulation, [00:14:15] blah blah blah blah blah. And Steve goes, wow, that sounds amazing. Absolutely. [00:14:20] Let’s get booked in. Now the other two practices have potentially [00:14:25] missed out.

Prav Solanki: Same service. Maybe your price point is similar [00:14:30] to what they’re offering on that open day. Right. And [00:14:35] so we’ve got to ask ourselves the question that are we doing ourselves enough [00:14:40] justice just on let’s just think about the phone call now, just on that phone call in [00:14:45] explaining to that patient what is on offer. If you offer [00:14:50] free whitening, mention it. If you offer retainers included [00:14:55] in the package, even if they’re not free, right included in the package, mention it because [00:15:00] you want to make sure that patients comparing apples for apples. And if [00:15:05] there are competitors offering or marketing open [00:15:10] days in your area, and you need to be sensitive to that, right. And perhaps [00:15:15] you need to bring that to the forefront of the discussion with the patient. If [00:15:20] you’re able to price patch, mention it. If you don’t compete on price, then [00:15:25] what are we going to do to add value to that conversation? [00:15:30] Right. I always say try and make that phone call as memorable as possible. [00:15:35] And this comes down to Usp’s, right? What [00:15:40] is it in your clinic that is different to the next clinic? [00:15:45] And so when it comes to Usp’s, what I’d like you to do is a little exercise [00:15:50] I’d like you to figure out in your practice what exactly [00:15:55] are your usp’s. Right. So perhaps pause this [00:16:00] podcast after this little statement I’m going to make and write down [00:16:05] what your points are, your unique selling points and propositions, and [00:16:10] then make sure your team on the telephone are able to articulate [00:16:15] these in a way that makes that phone call memorable.

Prav Solanki: So [00:16:20] how do we break down our usp’s? Let’s just stick [00:16:25] with Invisalign. And we’re trying to get Steve over the line, okay? How many [00:16:30] years have you been straightening teeth? How many cases [00:16:35] have you done? How many before and after pictures have you got? Have [00:16:40] you got those before and after pictures on your Instagram profile or on your website? Does [00:16:45] an automated email go out after they’ve sent an inquiry with you? Three best [00:16:50] before and after pictures on there that are not just retracted shots, but full face cases. [00:16:55] Have you spoke to that patient? And they’ve got a central diastema. [00:17:00] And have you got a central diastema case that you can send them the Invisalign has [00:17:05] fixed? Okay. So the first part of the USB write down how [00:17:10] many years of experience, how much volume and what have you got in [00:17:15] terms of evidence? Okay. What evidence can you show this patient [00:17:20] that we do Invisalign different and here are our results okay. [00:17:25] And it’s not a commodity. It’s about the end service. Next thing [00:17:30] if you’ve got any Google reviews, have you got any video testimonials that are [00:17:35] specific to Invisalign? Perhaps you can screenshot your Google reviews [00:17:40] and email them to Steve. If you’ve got a CRM system that [00:17:45] handles this for you, for example, Lead Flow, which is the one that we’ve [00:17:50] built, we we screenshot the the treatment [00:17:55] specific testimonials and [00:18:00] we automatically email them to the patient so they can see all the video [00:18:05] testimonials.

Prav Solanki: Now, even if you haven’t got a CRM system, go through that exercise [00:18:10] and email it to the patient. Send them a video testimonial of [00:18:15] a patient who you’ve taken that’s maybe sat on your Instagram page or sat on your website or SAT hosted [00:18:20] somewhere and show them examples of that. So that’s the next part, okay. Reviews, [00:18:25] testimonials and evidence. So write down all your usp’s regarding [00:18:30] that. Right? Have you got 500 plus five star Google reviews at the [00:18:35] practice? Have you been established 20 years you’ve been offering Invisalign treatment for the last [00:18:40] ten years, and you’ve completed over 600 cases, and you happen [00:18:45] to be recognised as a diamond, platinum, apex, [00:18:50] whatever provider it is. Okay, so whatever badges and awards [00:18:55] and stickers have you got? Have you won an award for patient care or for example, [00:19:00] you know, the whole apex diamond thing, whatever it is. [00:19:05] Okay. Often these awards badges and stickers just sort of remain in the [00:19:10] background. And even though we’ve got it plastered all over our website, we don’t [00:19:15] bring it into our phone conversations. And then your skills and approach. [00:19:20] Yeah. Have you got a slightly different approach to the way you do it? Do you offer something [00:19:25] like dental monitoring, or have you got a dedicated WhatsApp number [00:19:30] with the treatment coordinator? At any stage during your journey? You’ve got direct WhatsApp [00:19:35] communication with us.

Prav Solanki: If that is part of your process, explain it over [00:19:40] the phone that it’s slightly different here because patients do have problems and we’ve got [00:19:45] a dedicated WhatsApp number. Okay. In terms of the patient journey, do you offer convenience [00:19:50] evening appointments, weekend appointments? Yeah. Do we, um, carry [00:19:55] out remote reviews? So instead of you having to come in all the time, the dental [00:20:00] monitoring thing, we can do some zoom consultations. You can just pop in and pick up your [00:20:05] aligners. If everything’s tracking easily. We don’t want you to have to take time off work. [00:20:10] And we’ve made it really convenient. And then so that’s another set of USBs. [00:20:15] And then finally, what about the technology and the toys [00:20:20] that you have in the practice? Everyone’s got a scanner these days. Not everyone [00:20:25] talks about it. Yeah. We’ve got this amazing 3D scanning technology, [00:20:30] Prav. And when you come into the practice, what we’re going to do is we’re going to take a scan of your teeth. [00:20:35] It’s going to bring them up in 3D on the screen and right next to it, [00:20:40] it’s going to create an artificial intelligence simulation that’s going to show you how [00:20:45] your teeth are going to look. When they’re straightened. That’s [00:20:50] a really cool piece of technology that we’ve got. Okay, so perhaps you can talk about that. [00:20:55] And so let’s re-articulate everything. So we’ve just pause [00:21:00] the pause the podcast for now and just think about what your usp’s are, write [00:21:05] them down, go through that exercise with your team and go through [00:21:10] that exercise in relation to every treatment that you offer.

Prav Solanki: Implants, [00:21:15] Invisalign, general dentistry, restorative dentistry, crowns, [00:21:20] veneers, whatever it is. Hygiene. Maybe you offer [00:21:25] this air flow gbdt, warm water, all the rest of it. It’s [00:21:30] all good and well having this tech. But if you’re telephone team can’t talk [00:21:35] about in articulating in a way that the patients can understand, you’re missing [00:21:40] a trick because your patients won’t end up learning about it. So back to [00:21:45] Steve. Hi, Steve. So I understand your interest in Invisalign. Fantastic. [00:21:50] Well, you’ve come through to the right place in the local area. We are the most experienced [00:21:55] practice. We happen to have done over 400 cases in the last 12 [00:22:00] months. Our senior dentist, Doctor Solanki, has [00:22:05] been doing this for a long time. Um, and he’s earned himself a [00:22:10] flipping apex status, which means he’s one of the top providers in the whole [00:22:15] of Europe. But not only that, in addition to Invisalign, what he [00:22:20] also offers and I know you’re not interested in this, but he also offers fixed [00:22:25] braces. Now, for some patients who’ve got more complicated situations [00:22:30] where Invisalign can’t fix everything, we can do combination treatment if needed. It’s [00:22:35] on the table, so I suggest you come in and meet him. When [00:22:40] to send you an email with five Google reviews and a video testimonial with [00:22:45] Graham in there, who’s been through the same process, he’s got a gap in the middle of his teeth. [00:22:50]

Prav Solanki: You’ll see how we transformed his smile. Not an easy case, but he’s done loads of these, [00:22:55] so you’re going to be in the best possible hands. And with over 405 star Google reviews, [00:23:00] just take your time to read them. You can be rest assured you’re going to be getting the best treatment [00:23:05] and care now. Doctor Solanki skills and approach [00:23:10] to his Invisalign treatment are quite unique in the sense that once [00:23:15] you’ve had your teeth fully straightened, what’s going to happen is he’s going to do a little [00:23:20] bit of tooth contouring to just tidy up those uneven edges. And [00:23:25] that’s completely included in the price. And after treatment, once you’ve got these beautiful [00:23:30] straight teeth, we’re going to whiten them for you to whatever shade you want. So you’ll have [00:23:35] a perfect set of straight white teeth. And if you choose to do so at that stage, [00:23:40] we can also do some things with composite bonding, porcelain veneers and things like that. [00:23:45] And Doctor Solanki is an absolute artist when it comes to that. Now [00:23:50] I know you’re really busy and you’ve got you’ve got a really busy job, as you mentioned earlier [00:23:55] in this call. So we offer late Tuesday evening appointments. You can come in after work [00:24:00] and don’t have to take time off. And every other Saturday we’re open from [00:24:05] ten till four. So you can come in then as well.

Prav Solanki: But in addition to that you go [00:24:10] in to have Kerry’s WhatsApp number. Any issues, take a picture of your [00:24:15] teeth, WhatsApp it to us and you’re going to have direct line of communication. You’re not having [00:24:20] to wait to respond to emails or anything like that. And as you know, as I’ve told you, we’ve got the best [00:24:25] technology here, that 3D scanning technology, when you come in for your consultation, what’s [00:24:30] going to happen is we’re going to show you what your future smile looks like. And at this moment [00:24:35] in time, we’ve got a little bit of an offer on, which means the retainers at the end of treatment and [00:24:40] what retainers are for these little, um, there’s some additional aligners and the little [00:24:45] wire that goes along the back of your teeth. And after you’ve had your teeth straightened, what it’s going to do, it’s going [00:24:50] to keep them perfectly straight, because your teeth have a tendency to move back. And believe it or [00:24:55] not, Steve, about 50% of the patients we treat are because [00:25:00] they’ve been treated before. And either they weren’t given retainers or they didn’t wear them. But [00:25:05] we’re going to keep our eye on you for the next 12 months. So included in your package [00:25:10] is two six monthly check ups. To keep an eye on your retainer and make sure [00:25:15] your teeth are not moving. Now, I’d love you to come in and meet Doctor [00:25:20] Solanki. He’s offering a complimentary consultation. He can specifically scan [00:25:25] your teeth, show you what your future smile will look like.

Prav Solanki: And if you decide to go [00:25:30] ahead, then, as I’ve mentioned, you’ll get the complimentary whitening will throw [00:25:35] the retainers in completely free of charge included in the price, and we will get [00:25:40] you to that perfect smile on your wedding day where X, Y, and [00:25:45] Z. Right now that phone conversation is so much better [00:25:50] once you’ve layered in your usp’s, but you [00:25:55] can’t sit there and blame your receptionist for not using usp’s if [00:26:00] you haven’t delivered the training to them. So it’s our job as [00:26:05] clinicians, as associates, as practice owners to [00:26:10] educate our team on all the different usp’s that we offer. Whether you’ve just been on [00:26:15] a course, whether you’ve got postgraduate education and you’ve trained all over the world, [00:26:20] whether you’ve been on this course, that course or the other, whether you’ve got a specific gentle technique for dental [00:26:25] phobia or injections or whatever it is, you’ve really got to sell it to your [00:26:30] team members, but also go through a, you know, a role play exercise where those team members [00:26:35] not only know your usp’s, but know how to articulate them right. [00:26:40] And so let’s take Steve again. Let’s imagine you getting through the [00:26:45] door. But another two practices getting through the door. And he comes in for that consultation. What [00:26:50] does your patient journey look like. Okay. What does that confirmation. [00:26:55] Text message, appointment and email look [00:27:00] like? Does it tell him that you’re excited to see him? Does it show me before and after? [00:27:05] Is the text message personalised, or is it just a standard one that comes out from [00:27:10] Software of Excellence at Bentley or whatever practice management software that you’re using? [00:27:15] Is there a little phone call that happens prior [00:27:20] to that patient’s appointment, Steve’s appointment, saying, we’re really looking forward to meeting you. [00:27:25]

Prav Solanki: Do we ask Steve to send us a picture of his smile so that Doctor Solanki [00:27:30] can look at it beforehand and do some prep before he comes in to [00:27:35] do a simulation or whatever, right. Stick it in the Smile View software or something like [00:27:40] that, or use something like the airbrush app to do a, you know, a rough [00:27:45] simulation of what his future smile could look like in his face. Yeah. Is there anything [00:27:50] like that that goes on? And when he steps through the door, what’s that like? [00:27:55] How is he welcomed into the practice? Who goes out and collects Steve [00:28:00] from the waiting stroke reception area? Is it the clinician? Is it the nurse? What does [00:28:05] the power dynamic look like in that situation? All of these things [00:28:10] are part of your your patient journey that you could [00:28:15] differentiate yourself from the next practice. When they’re going in for a consultation, [00:28:20] they’re okay. When you talk about money, how is the treatment plan presented? What [00:28:25] is your posture in the room? How do you answer that? Patients questions? [00:28:30] Do you connect with them in a certain way? Do you find some common ground and some [00:28:35] personal information about that patient? Do you reiterate the usp’s [00:28:40] that that patient has shared with you? Your receptionist [00:28:45] has done all this hard graft to articulate a usp’s and get some information [00:28:50] from that patient.

Prav Solanki: Are you ignoring that, or are you using it again to reinforce [00:28:55] what they have said? And this requires, you know, good leadership and team communication [00:29:00] from you, between you and your team. And then the treatment plan, [00:29:05] how do you present that? Is it sent by email? Is it delivered [00:29:10] there and then in person? Are you getting some feedback from them on where they sit [00:29:15] in terms of price, is there any information you haven’t presented today that’s [00:29:20] stopping them from making a decision? Are you asking that patient head on, and are [00:29:25] you then letting them walk out of that door to go and think about? I think one of the delegates on the [00:29:30] course said that, well, I’m too scared to close the deal [00:29:35] here and now. So I suggest that they go away and think [00:29:40] about it. That actually forms part of the language and the presentation. Would you like to go away [00:29:45] and think about it? And that particular delegate is going to change their [00:29:50] approach and has actually promised me that what they’re going to do is be a little bit more [00:29:55] aggressive. Maybe aggressive is the wrong choice of word, but you know, what I mean is [00:30:00] more along the lines of, okay, Prav, now that I’ve presented everything to [00:30:05] you, what are we thinking? Where’s your head at now? Are we going to book in and [00:30:10] we’re going to go ahead.

Prav Solanki: Should we get your hygiene appointment booked in so we can get you started? You know, [00:30:15] what can we do to get this patient over the line? Don’t tell them to go and think about it. [00:30:20] If they tell you they need to think about it, then that’s our opportunity to ask [00:30:25] them, okay. While you are going to think about it. Prav is there anything that I haven’t mentioned [00:30:30] today that’s going to help you make that decision? I feel like perhaps I’ve not explained myself clearly, [00:30:35] and that’s why you do need to go away and think about it. Is there any other information I [00:30:40] can help you with that is going to help making that decision a lot easier. [00:30:45] Have that conversation while the patient’s in. So you given the treatment plan they take [00:30:50] it away. You follow up that treatment plan. How long do you follow it follow [00:30:55] it up for. Are you following up for a minimum of two years? If they don’t, go ahead, at what cadence [00:31:00] and frequency are the other follow ups? What type of communication channels email, text message? [00:31:05] What are we using here? And then are you utilising technologies [00:31:10] such as loom? To send them a summary of that treatment [00:31:15] plan in a video format best delivered via the clinician elevates your conversion [00:31:20] rate ever so much.

Prav Solanki: But a TCO can also do that. [00:31:25] And I think that’s the sort of the key things from my course that I delivered [00:31:30] this weekend always come back and reflect on my train journey. [00:31:35] On the way back at the top of my presentation, I create a new slide. And [00:31:40] that new slide has a list of bullet points on how I’m going to change the course [00:31:45] next time, what I’m going to do differently, how I’m going to present this differently, [00:31:50] so on and so forth. But, you know, I think the two most valuable [00:31:55] exercises that I think come out of my training [00:32:00] and sales training, whether I’m running my TCO course or doing specific trade sales training for people, [00:32:05] is this is mapping out your customer journey to the nth [00:32:10] detail. So step by step, there’s an exercise [00:32:15] that I get my clients to do and map their patient journey out separately. [00:32:20] So I’m going to end on this which is this become the patient. Set up a fake email [00:32:25] address but someone else’s mobile number in there. Make an inquiry. See [00:32:30] what sort of communication you get. See if you’re happy with the email confirmation. [00:32:35] You get the text message confirmation you get. So if you’re happy with [00:32:40] the follow up emails and the number of times if you’re happy with the response rate. The [00:32:45] conversation that happens on the phone. Become the patient. [00:32:50] Go through that process. Map the journey about out about what’s [00:32:55] happening now.

Prav Solanki: Don’t map out your future journey or the ideal journey. We all know what the perfect patient journey [00:33:00] looks like, but map out what’s happening and figure out what you need to change [00:33:05] to deliver a better service. Be, you know, communication [00:33:10] that helps you convert better. And I think that’s it. I think that’s [00:33:15] all I’ve got to speak about today, really, is I am incredibly passionate about [00:33:20] sales. I think sales is all about connecting [00:33:25] with the patient, meeting them where they are at in that in their journey, [00:33:30] really understanding them and articulating how you can help them [00:33:35] fix their problem in a really easy to understand [00:33:40] way. And finally, being mindful of [00:33:45] the fact that patients are always at some stage in [00:33:50] that decision making journey, and you’ve got to be sensitive to the [00:33:55] fact that they may not want to buy today or tomorrow, or in three months [00:34:00] or in six months time. And that’s okay, because [00:34:05] these patients will eventually go ahead with treatment. If a patient has come in with crooked teeth, [00:34:10] if they go away and think about it in 12 months later, they haven’t had treatment. [00:34:15] Guess what? They’ve still got crooked teeth, and at some point that pain will resurface. [00:34:20] And if you’re there waiting in the wings because you’ve been in touch [00:34:25] with them, you’ve constantly been communicating with them over the last two years, maybe [00:34:30] once every 2 to 3 months. Just keeping in touch. You’ll be first on [00:34:35] their list.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, [00:34:40] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in [00:34:45] dentistry. Your hosts. Payman [00:34:50] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. [00:34:55] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing.

Prav Solanki: And just a huge thank you both [00:35:00] from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has [00:35:05] had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think [00:35:10] about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think [00:35:15] might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six [00:35:20] star rating.

Payman L:
Then you telling a dental surgery, does that leave you as like an adrenaline junky or something?

Danny Watson:
I don’t ride fast motor bikes. My wife wouldn’t let me have a motor bike.

Intro Voice:
This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki:
Hello and welcome to the Dental Leaders Podcast and today we’ve got the pleasure of having Danny Watson on the podcast, who is a very close friend, who I’d consider to be a brother and we’ve known each other for a few years. I asked him a while ago would he be willing to come here and share his story because he’s got a slightly different background to most people who enter dentistry. Danny, why don’t you take us way back to the beginning, where you grew up, school and how it all started.

Danny Watson:
Okay, yeah hello, thanks for having me on. I don’t think I’m a dental leader but I certainly enjoy sharing my story with you, Prav, you know you’ve probably heard it more than most. So taking it right back to the beginning, I was born in Dover, mom and dad split up when I was two and a half and my mum had a passion for wanting to own a pub so she worked in a lot of pubs and then my stepdad just sort of gave in after a few years and said, “Right, yeah we’ll buy a pub then”. We bought a pub in a place called Faversham where Shepherd Neame Brewery is, still. It was called the White Horse, it’s not there anymore, it’s offices. I lived in a pub, basically, for about seven years of my life surrounded by people and chatting to people in the bar, and drunks really.

Prav Solanki:
From age to what age was that, Danny?

Danny Watson:
From the age of six to the age of 12, so about six years. We went bankrupt because in Faversham there was like 53 or 56 pubs in a really small place, and then people would literally just move around pub to pub and you’d be like struggling, hanging all that time and then one month a year you’d crush it and a load of money, but obviously no one came back one month, so we went bankrupt.

Payman L:
Sitting in these podcasts I keep on hearing Prav’s story and different things he attributes his successes to. One of the main things he attributes his successes to is working with the public as a child in his dad’s shop. His dad had a taxi company. Would you say that exposure to the public early on has put you in a good position to deal with people?

Danny Watson:
100%. I actually, really, really do and me and Prav had a business going for a bit and I told my story on it. I think that early on, six years old to 12 years old, sitting in talking to people, learning how people react when you talk to them, trying to make them smile. My little game in my head when I was a kid was trying to make, how quick could I make someone smile, to get that link with them and then chat and have a conversation. I do think that really, really helps and it certainly helps in the chair. When the patient comes in my first goal is to find some sort of commonality, whatever it might be. Then they’re more than likely to listen to you and go ahead with treatment and be less anxious. It certainly is like a nice challenge for you, rather than seeing them as the next punter coming through the door, which is something that I never, ever, ever wanted it to be.

Payman L:
So then what happened next?

Danny Watson:
We actually moved out of town, like seven miles out of town. There wasn’t many buses going out there so I had to cycle seven miles to school and seven miles home after school on a racing bike. I think that was where my love of physical training came from. I used to test myself, how quick, it was pretty much downhill on the way there to school and on the way back it was uphill. So I used to time myself and try and beat every single day to school. That’s not how you should train, by the way. Try not to beat yourself every single day, you’ll get burnt out. Trust me, I am a trainer. Then I finished school because of this physical training thing. I actually, and I love the sport, but I was never really, really, really good. I was always sort of like just above average at most sports. I sort of fell in love with the idea of joining the Army.

Danny Watson:
At 16 I didn’t bother going to do A levels, I just wanted to join the Army. I didn’t know what I wanted to go in doing.

Payman L:
Was there military history in your family?

Danny Watson:
None whatsoever.

Payman L:
So what made you do that?

Danny Watson:
Sport, and there was a PE teacher at school who took the top sort of 15 kids of PE across the board, or most enthusiastic, I wouldn’t say top, and took us on an open day at Howe Barracks in Canterbury and we went there and I’d look at the Warrior Tanks and it was the… I think it was Price of Wales Royal Regiment and I thought God, I really want to do this. At the time I wanted to be a combat medical technician. I wanted to be a paramedic, I wanted to help people. So I liked being around people, my brother wanted to be a doctor and he was going towards that and got a place at university so I thought yeah I might follow in his footsteps because see how happy that made my parents. It just felt right, I’m going to join up.

Prav Solanki:
Was that important, Danny, how happy you made your parents at the time?

Danny Watson:
Yeah, massively. I always wanted to please them. I was a bit of a problem child when I was younger. I got into a lot of trouble, got suspended and expelled from one school. I got to a certain age, you know when you have to do your last two years and to GCSEs. I saw him, he’s two years ahead of me, and he got like five A stars, two As a B and a C and they were chuffed to bits and I just thought, “You need to wise up” so I sort of just changed overnight. I went right, you need to focus and get these grades. Certainly because they said you needed A-C to get, in maths, English and science, to get into the Army if you wanted to do anything technical wise, or even be a combat med tech, they said they’d like that. So I was like right, I’ve got a goal now, I went back in.

Danny Watson:
I was in the bottom set for English, this is a running theme in my life, I was in the bottom set and I couldn’t even get a C. I was just messing around, doing silly things in class and I spoke to the teacher and said, “Listen, I need to get in that set above”, and she was like, “You’re not getting in there. You’re a clown.” I was like, I’ll work my nuts off and I’ll do it. So I did. I started working my nuts off and she was like, “Actually, this guys producing some good”, and she sorted it out for me. Thanks to her, she sorted it out. I went to the set above for the last six months at school and managed to sit the exam. I don’t even know if it’s the same sort of thing these days, but you do a bracketed into what you could take, so the highest I could get was a C and I got a C in English and I was chuffed a bit because it meant I could join the Army and what I wanted to do.

Payman L:
Being a dentist wasn’t even anywhere near on your radar?

Danny Watson:
Never even heard about it until many, many, many, many years later. Didn’t even cross my mind even until the age of… how old was I in… 10 years ago. So 26 years old.

Payman L:
That’s the first time you thought about it?

Danny Watson:
First time ever.

Payman L:
Take us through what it’s like to be a full-time Army guy. Were you patriotic, were you scared when you went off? Where did you go?

Danny Watson:
Do you know what? It’s a funny thing, really because you get obviously basic training’s quite unique. They break you down, they turn you into, they make you think the way they want you to think. They try to make you very, very team orientated so that you’ll always think about others. You always look after your kit before yourself, but day to day normality on camp is very much like a normal job. You probably work a few less hours when you’re on camp, but when you go away you work very, very hard. You’re in stressful environments, so day to day-

Payman L:
When they tell you you’re about to be deployed somewhere what goes through you? Excitement, nerves?

Danny Watson:
Both.

Payman L:
Both, they’re supposed to be the same chemical according to that Simon.

Danny Watson:
Really?

Payman L:
Yeah.

Danny Watson:
Both because you’re trained to do that, so you’re like, brilliant, we’re going to go out and do the job we’re trained to do rather than just kicking around camp, fixing vehicles on camp or doing fears or whatever. Going to the ranges.

Payman L:
Is there any questioning should we be going or is that not, that’s not part of the?

Danny Watson:
You don’t question it.

Payman L:
You wouldn’t be a soldier if you did.

Danny Watson:
We don’t. Yeah, you don’t. You just go right, that’s a job. That’s my job, I go out and do it. There is some patriotic stuff involved, serving your country. I think that’s sort of indoctrinated into you when you go through basic training and throughout really. You’re very proud to be, a lot of people are. I wouldn’t say all, because some of them just do it for a job and money and because they come from very, very different backgrounds, they need to do something. But certainly for me it was like this is doing good. See when we went out, I always remember, it’s funny Prav recommended that I went for a float tank. I was a bit sceptical, I’m going to lay in this warm, salty water with no music, it’s dark.

Prav Solanki:
And Prav talking shit.

Danny Watson:
And pay like 35 quid to sit in a dark, dark room. 35 quid to sit in a dark room in a bit of warm water. It was like Dick Turpin wore a mask. But he was brilliant. But the funny thing was I travelled through time and I went through what I’ve just been telling you, but the one thing I couldn’t remember was those painful times and leaving. So leaving my mum on the platform when I was 16 to go to the Army. Getting on the flight Iraq twice and Afghanistan once, I can’t remember it, I can’t remember the actual flight itself, because obviously it was sad. You don’t know, you don’t know whether you’re going to come back or not, irrelevant of what job you’re in or whether you’re working here, there or anywhere. You just didn’t know, because it is the unknown. You are nervous but as soon as you get there you hit the ground.

Payman L:
There’s a job to do.

Danny Watson:
It’s just a job to do at the end of the day and you just do your job to the best of your ability and that’s exactly what… it was easier I think for us to be out there, even though it’s hostile, than it is for people back home waiting for the phone calls. Waiting for the letters. I think for most people it’s just a job and you just get on with it.

Prav Solanki:
What’s the worst thing that you saw during the Army?

Danny Watson:
People being shot, dealing with the casualties. I think my first day in Iraq was different. Iraq was totally different, Afghanistan was a different beast all together. The tour I was on was savage for casualties, for amputees, IEDs, improvised explosive devices. That’s what IEDs is, going off and blowing up patrols, basically loads of people and what they would do was they would work out where their emergency helicopter landing site would be, so they’d hit them there in one place and then they’d know that they’d extract that casualty to the helicopter landing site and they’d absolutely lay a tonne of these IEDs down and just demolish the whole squad. That was pretty crap, if I’m honest. I don’t know whether it should be on the podcast, but you know transporting body bags and stuff on flights and stuff like that, that wasn’t pleasant.

Payman L:
Do they somehow prepare you for that? Can one be prepared for that?

Danny Watson:
I don’t think you can, I don’t think there’s any pre-training that can train you for that. And I saw very little, compared to some lads. There was some guys that saw their best friends gone in front of them and my heart goes out to them, it upsets me a bit, really. And you just, tough time for people. One of my best friends got blown up. He’s doing really well, now. He’s doing really well and he even said… I listened to a podcast that he was on, really inspirational actually, his name’s Spencer Whitely. He got blown up in Iraq, intestines were hanging out, he lost half his quad, lost a thumb. One of my other really good friends who actually joined the PT Corps later on, the same Corps I did, saved his life by standing on his femoral artery. So he came back. His mentality to get better is unbelievable. On that podcast he just said, “There was not a day that I felt really sorry for myself. I’ve had the odd moment”, he said, “But all I’ve eve thought is moving forward. I need to provide for my family, I need to get going, I need to move, I need to get better. I need to walk.”

Danny Watson:
When they said you’ll never walk without a walking stick ever again when he left the Army, proved them wrong. He’s back squatting nearly 200 kilos now. He’s running, he’s skipping. He’s one of the best Cross Fit athletes, masters athletes over 40 to 45 on the planet. Top 20 in the world. Just goes to show, a lot of it is all mentality.

Payman L:
Something I wasn’t aware of, Stuart Raid who demonstrates on our cause, he’s one of the teachers, he’s an Army guy. One thing he tried to explain to me was that PTSD is kind of the norm, it’s not the odd people here. He said it’s the odd person who doesn’t suffer PTSD. It’s actually normal thing to happen.

Danny Watson:
I think that through history it just didn’t have a name. I like with most things in life everything’s on a sliding scale. There is a spectrum isn’t there? At some level you will be suffering a little bit, and some will be suffering more than others, but there’s also the sliding scale is how people cope with those things. It’s a real thing and it’s horrible. There’s a lot of charities out there helping a lot of guys and girls out and they do need the help. I’ve spoke about it at length with a lot of friends who are in some special jobs and they talk about it and say, “Look, it’s a real thing, you know. You come back.” But they have got stuff in place these days. Like it’s called Trim, they come back and it’s like post management. You get interviewed, but a lot of people can stay under the radar because they don’t want to look weak and that is a big stigmatism. You don’t want to be seen as being weak or going to the sick bay, seeing the doctor for anything because you think you’re getting a black mark next to your name and that was a big thing.

Payman L:
Surprising in this day and age.

Danny Watson:
Yeah. I think it might be changing. I’ve not been in for a while now. I’ve been out for seven and a bit years. I’ve still got friends in, who are the same age and stuff and they say the environment’s changing. People are speaking out and getting looked after a lot more. It’s good.

Payman L:
Then the first time you were exposed to dentistry was out in Afghanistan you said?

Danny Watson:
That’s right yeah, yeah, yeah. The obvious thing, really. I was flying around with a physiotherapist, flying out to the remote location. The FOBs they were called. Forward Observation Bases, he would do the hands on treatment, then I would write the exercise prescription programme to keep the lads and lassies on the ground, rather than having to fly all the way back to Bastion to be treated, to fly back out again. There would be sort of a treatment gap, so they’d be hanging around in Bastion for a while not being operative on the ground. So then they thought we’ll fly you out. They also flew a dental team out, a dentist and a dental nurse and we would fly in and stay in the medical sort of bay and have a camp cot there, two camp cots.

Danny Watson:
So we never co-located because we wouldn’t be able to sleep anywhere, if that makes sense. But one time it was in August, so next month 10 years ago, there was the elections in Afghanistan and we just accidentally were in Lashkargāh, it was called. It was the headquarters, for 10 days and everything was grounded for 10 days.

Danny Watson:
This dentist, he was a Major and my boss was a Captain, he was like, “Right lads, I’m a Major”, he’s right funny character, he wasn’t an officer, you know, he was like jack of a lad, he went, “So I’m going to work in the mornings and have the afternoons off”. Because we had the same clinical bay. “You guys can have the afternoons, I don’t care what you do in the mornings.” I was like, “All right, fine”. So I just went go up, cracked some fizz and I was like a bit of a loose end here. So used to watch what they were up to and they were treating Afghanis, they were treating soldiers because if someone, if the Afghanis come to the front gate and they’re in pain we’ve got a responsibility to treat them.

Danny Watson:
It was just amazing, really. They’d come in and have these little root stumps everywhere, now I know they’re retained roots, didn’t know before, they were just black. And they’d be like, right, numb them all up, extract them all and then send them out and sort them out. Same for the lads, because if you… you need to keep your oral health up to tiptop condition so you can eat and not have any pain, so I was just like, this is pretty cool. I’d get to work with my hands, which I used to do when I was an engineer. I used to fix tanks and fix people rather than fixing machines, which I was doing fixing people but I was doing it with my mind writing programmes, so I thought right, I’m going to go on the internet. Used to get like 20 minutes a week or something like that. So I went on and was like yeah, that’s good, Cardiff, I live in Newport. Cardiff’s got a place, I haven’t got A levels but I’ll get in with this. I might have to do my GCSE English again, because I only got a C, which horrified me.

Payman L:
So you did the A levels or didn’t need them?

Danny Watson:
No, well I didn’t need A levels because when I was-

Payman L:
Pre-med year.

Danny Watson:
I had to do a pre-med year. I had a foundation degree in health, sport and fitness, so I got my foot in the door but they still made me re-take my GCSE English for a pride. So I phoned my missus on my 20 minute phone card you get a week and I was like, “Allie”, she was like, “You all right love, you okay?” I was like, yeah all good. I was like, “Guess what?” She’s like, “What’s that?” “I want to be a dentist.” She was like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah just come back safe and we’ll talk about this when you get back”, and I was like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah I’m doing it.” And put the phone down. And then just got fascinated with it, a bit like anything I’m like. Once I get my mind to something I’m sort of like, I’ve got to do it.

Danny Watson:
So I came back, started doing, on my own time, my GCSE English. I had a family friend who used to be an English teacher and she helped me out with my coursework and stuff and I then did two weeks work experience. I was in Plymouth, a peninsula, and they were hands on. It was when they did the four year course, not the five year course. They’re hands on from year one. I was like this is cool, I definitely want to do this. I applied, but I didn’t hear anything back whatsoever. Everywhere I heard, Cardiff was like, “Nah”, Bristol, “Nah, don’t want him.” And then Dundee same thing, no, don’t want you. Six year course. Then Manchester was still left open on the UCAS application system and I got posted from Plymouth to near Cardiff, so I was living at home and I was loving it. I was travelling 45 minutes in, in the morning, 45 minutes home.

Danny Watson:
I worked in this fantastic facility fixing quality soldiers who were really up for it and I thought, “God, I could do this, actually. I’m really loving it.” I was managing people and sort of got a tip of the hat saying look, you’re probably going to get promoted to star major soon, but if we do it will you be willing to move anywhere? I was a bit like, not sure. Allie’s really happy with only living down the road, but it is a star major job and I didn’t think I was going to get this place and then all of a sudden, ding, it came up and it was like come up for an interview.

Payman L:
Manchester?

Danny Watson:
Yeah, Manchester. So I drove up. I remember it vividly. I popped into 3D, Cross Fit 3D, that is a gym. I was well into Cross Fit at the time. Did the interview process, went back for it, didn’t do very well in that. It was like a group discussion, bits and pieces. I didn’t want to be overpowering, you know. I went home and thought, well, I’ve got a decent job anyway, so great prospects. The very next day, I literally arrived up at the accommodations to give a room inspection so the lads and lassies have cleaned out their lockers and made their beds and stood by their beds. I was about to go in and inspect it, I looked at my phone and I had an email saying you’ve got a place if you want it. I just remember my heart racing. It must have gone from about 35 beats per minute to about 200.

Danny Watson:
I was like, “Oh my God this is ridiculous.” I just went in and was like, “Yeah, knock off for the weekend, you’re really good.” I went home, my wife was in Vegas actually, she was in Vegas with her best friend who lives in Australia and I phoned her and said, “You’re not going to believe this, I actually got a place.” I said, “I don’t know what I’m going to do”, but in my head I knew what I was going to do, I was going to take it. These opportunities do not come along that often. She was like, “You’ve got to do it, even if you move up on your own and just live up there on your own, then you’ve got to do it.” In my head I was like, “I hope I move up on my own.”

Payman L:
Your outlook as a dental student compared to the classical, like me, A levels, straight in, bit of a kid, bit of a child to tell you the truth. Boy’s school, straight in, bit of a child. Your outlook must have been totally different. First you really feel like you got this place that you weren’t expecting to get so you feel very happy, proud that you got it and you’re going to make the most of it. But secondly, an adult who’s done three tours of duty in the military, what the way you approached the course? Was it like you were going to squeeze every drop out of it? It was?

Danny Watson:
Yeah absolutely that. Basically every opportunity I got, do some extra clinics, speak to people, work hard. Work hard throughout the year so I’m not just cramming so when it comes to exam time it was easy. It was easy, obviously, because it wasn’t, but I certainly wasn’t overly stressed at exam times because I felt like I’ve drip fed it throughout the whole year and just kept motivated. There’s a lot to lose, stakes are high, I’ve just given up my job and I’ve left with a bit of a bang. I sent an email. There were some errors in the PT Corps with the hierarchy and stuff.

Payman L:
Oh you let them know?

Danny Watson:
I let them know, I wrote this really long email and it was a couple of reasons for it. It needed to be said. The day I left at 12 o’clock on a Friday, at 11:59 sent it and left. I had some missed call and I did answer, the RSM was like, “Danny, it’s Sid”, and I was like all right. I didn’t even know what to call him because normally it would be “sir”. I was a bit like, “…yeah”. So I burned the bridges, but I did it on purpose, I burned the bridges so I’d never go back. There was high stakes. I just thought if I don’t pass this, I’m not academically gifted, it’s just I have to work really, really hard, so I just went in and worked really, really hard for six years, basically.

Payman L:
When you say you did it on purpose, so what, you were so convinced you were never going to go back?

Danny Watson:
Yeah.

Payman L:
That you literally burnt your bridges on purpose?

Danny Watson:
If that path was open. These things had to be said, there were some things of backstabbing, stuff like that. They talked about esprit de corps. “Esprit de corps, we’re all in it together!” But the PT Corps is 450 people strong, who are high flyers. You go through a selection process, you’ve got a nine month probation course where you do all these courses, at any moment it could just be like, “All right, get back to your unit, you’re not what we want”. It’s a high sieve machine, so you’ve got these thrusting people who just want to get to the top. They want the best rank, the best reports and they want to get there as soon as possible. There’s a lot of egos kicking around. A couple of things happened to my friends, stuff like that. Things happened to me, but I’d just say it there and then, just tell people, “Look, no way.” And we’d sort it out there and then. But some of my friends were a little more reserved so I felt like I had to stick up for them, but in the back of my mind it was like if that path is open for me to go and I start struggling maybe I’d take that easy path, the path of least resistance. So that door was definitely closed, shut.

Prav Solanki:
Whilst you were in the Army and probably a little bit after as well, you’ve mentioned this to me quite a few times, the brotherhood. What does that mean?

Danny Watson:
Specifically in certain units, infantry units, you’re so close knit. You’re together for the whole of your career, then I did my commando course. Getting that green beret was not just getting a green lid on your head, when you go through that… when you suffer together so much you have a bond and it’s sort of indoctrinated into you that you never, ever let your brother or your sister down, you know? More so a brotherhood because it’s mainly blokes isn’t it? You have this set of values and things that you live by so if everyone of those people or my friends ever need anything I’d drop it and I’d go. That’s really important but it was one thing I was scared to lose when I left. I was quite upset when you left camp because you think, that’s it, it’s over. You’ve lost it forever.

Danny Watson:
Little did I know, those people that you are so close to, they’ll always be around. You don’t have to speak to them every single month or even a year, but you get the odd message or you see them or bump into them and they’re there. Or you need them and they’re there like that, and that’s happened a couple of times since.

Payman L:
Do you think it’s possible to recreate that in an organisation without the pain that you went… of course it’s never going to be that, but elements of that.

Danny Watson:
Yeah I do.

Payman L:
You see military people do so well in business sometimes, don’t you, that it must come, that discipline and looking out for the other.

Danny Watson:
I totally believe you can get to a level of it. Again, that spectrum thing, it’s a sliding scale, isn’t it? And certainly I think teamwork and constantly helping each other out, irrelevant of where you are, who you are, so whether you’re the dentist, the dental nurse, the reception staff or anything, if you show willing and you literally will do anything for them, there’s no job too big and no job too small. A little bit like sweeping the sheds, like the New Zealand rugby team. That goes a long, long way. And just being there for people, end of the day saying thank you to people, end of the day, “Are you all right? You didn’t seem yourself today?” Not just thinking about yourself. I think there’s so much, not just in dentistry, so many people-

Payman L:
Any organisation.

Danny Watson:
Yeah, people are in such a drive and a drive for themselves, they never look to the peripheries and see what’s actually happening, or who’s falling by the wayside. And that’s something that we never were taught in the military. It was as one unit we’ve got one mission and we go together and you keep looking in your five and twenties, five metres, 20 metres, to see where everyone is because you can’t leave someone behind can you? And you might need them one mile down the road, irrelevant what mission you’re on, you need to be as… you know.

Payman L:
It’s weird because from the outside you don’t think soldiers are these kind types. Dealing, just in the six months I’ve known you, such a kind person. It’s not an archetypal thing that you think from the outside a soldier is. Stewart’s the same, Stewart’s the same. Have you met Stewart?

Danny Watson:
No, I haven’t, actually, no.

Danny Watson:
I don’t think he was in Manchester at that time?

Payman L:
Maybe he wasn’t in that particular one, yeah, you’d like him. But again, same thing. I’ve spoken to him about it as well.

Danny Watson:
Yeah,

Payman L:
That looking out for your… from the outside you don’t realise it.

Prav Solanki:
You don’t see it.

Danny Watson:
I’ve got some friends, Slay-Jones brothers, they are from the thickest of the thick valley boys, Wales, you know. Hard as nails, rugby through and through, played Army combine services, they are tough cookies. From the exterior they really are, but they are some of the most thoughtful blokes, ever. When I was going through dental degree, this is like I was talking about, you know you might not hear from them, Daryl would write me, get the postcards. He’s got the Danny the Champion of the World postcards, gone and bought like six different ones and now and then he’d just write me a little letter saying words of wisdom. Even when it’s painful and you’re struggling just remember what you’re doing it for. Just receiving that out of the blue was brilliant. I’ve kept them all.

Danny Watson:
His brother, Gareth, he’s got two kids. It’s my graduation, we finished on the eighth, got the results on the eighth of June, on the ninth Allie had set up a party for me, he’d phoned his mom up, “Right, Mum, need you over here”, he lives in Aldershot, in Surrey, Hampshire and she drive from Wales, looked after the kids for one night, he got on the train, came all the way to Manchester just for that night. Didn’t know anyone there. He was like, “No, I’m going to be there.” Just legends, you know what I mean, they’re there forever. They’re the most thoughtful boys, but the most brutal. They’re star majors, they’re W1s, they’re the top of the tree, you can’t go any higher as a non-commissioned officer and you wouldn’t want to cross them in work.

Danny Watson:
I saw Gareth, recently, this is ridiculous. He’s gone to work in HQ so there’s quite a lot of civilians that work in there, and they were working on this group spreadsheet and it’s got a massive long file name, so he’s working at it, it’s really complex stuff. Gareth is not into this, he’s like just a worker. So he’s struggling away filling out this database. He’s been working at it four hours and this little civvy comes up and goes, “You’re working on the wrong one mate, I changed the file name last week.” Gareth’s like, “What?” He went, he was like, “Nate, are you fucking joking with me man?” He went, “What?”, swearing. He went, “I’m going to throw you off that balcony, you better be joking.” He went, “I’m not joking.” Gareth’s like, he had to go for a walk. You wouldn’t want to cross him in work, you know, but they’re some of the sweetest blokes you’ll ever meet.

Prav Solanki:
What was your proudest moment in the military?

Danny Watson:
Getting that green beret, mate. 100%. Every time I look at it, it just meant so much to me, 13 years of… 12 actually. 12 years of wanting that but I wasn’t ever in the right unit. They kept dangling a carrot, “Yeah you can go on it, yeah you can go on it”, and at the last minute, “Nope.” So I had 12 years of just wanting this. I feel like I am that sort of person. I like being a team player, I like physical challenges. Going through the beat after that, I came back from Afghanistan, went straight down to Plymouth. You go on a beat up, the beat up is where they sort of condition you for the course, but it’s actually worse than the course. So you go to a place called Oak Hampton on Dartmoor. Horrendous place. It could be 30 degrees sunshine at the bottom, three miles up the hill you get to Oak Hampton camp and it’s snowing.

Prav Solanki:
Just describe the experience for us sort of lay people.

Danny Watson:
So, Oak Hampton? Or the course in general?

Prav Solanki:
The experience.

Danny Watson:
This was the coldest winter we’d had for 10 years. Remember when we had minus 11 and windchill factors and stuff. We turned up there the first day, and historically, thankfully not for us, what used to happen was they park the minibus at the bottom, you’d have your burg and all your kit, all your civvy bags, so you probably have about 70 kilos worth of kit. They used to park the minivan at the bottom, it’s a three mile probably 10% incline to the top. They’d be like, “Right, you’ve got X amount of time, if you don’t get there in time you’re going back to camp. You can’t even start the beat up.” So we didn’t get to do that, which I’m really thankful for because I probably wouldn’t have made it. No, I would have done. We got to camp and they’re like drop your kit, get your PT kit on, it was pissing down with rain. You had a t-shirt and shorts, that’s it. And trainers, obviously. They just thrashed us for three and a half hours. Running, crawling through water. Keeping with the instructors, they would rotate in and out, so they had fresh legs. Climbing ropes. Three hours.

Danny Watson:
They just wanted to see who wanted to be there. And then the people that couldn’t cope with that. They kept saying, “It’s going to finish lads, it’s going to finish”, and then you go even further and even further. And it was just testing how much you wanted it and your mental capacity. That was a daily occurrence for four weeks. We had two weeks before Christmas, had a two week break and a two week after. Probably that’s not how they usually do it, they usually go four weeks straight. That was really bad because you get to chill out over Christmas. I was consuming about 10,000 calories a day and I was still losing weight. I came home one day, a weekend. We got Saturday afternoons off and Sundays so I went back and it was Rugby International in Cardiff, so I got back, met Allie in town. I wasn’t drinking because I didn’t want to compromise my fitness for the course, so I was out hanging out with them.

Danny Watson:
I was like, right, I need to go and get some food, I’ve already had my breakfast. So I went and got two pies, had those, came back an hour later I was like I need to go out and get some food again, I had a 12 inch Subway, come back. Ont he way home I had fish and chips and when I got home I was like, “Allie, I’m still hungry.” She was like right I’ll cook you up some homemade stir fry and stuff. So it was basically a battle of attrition and then working together. The actual course itself, what happens is you get buddied up with someone. They’re called your basher buddy. The buddy buddy system. He was my guy for the 10 week course. So we’d live in a bed space next to each other on camp and then we’d also, when we’d go out on exercise or week we’d be in the shell scrape together. So you’d have the poncho over the top. He’d cook dinner, I’d clean my weapon or I’d make the brew he’d clean his weapon, we were always together.

Danny Watson:
If it wasn’t for him I’d never got through the course and vice versa. His name’s Paul Squires, absolute legend of a human being. So if I’m at times struggling he’d pick me up and we’d keep going. So getting that at the end of the 30 miler, you’d do these four tests and you culminate with 30 miles over Dartmoor, starting at Oak Hampton Camp, you start on a place called Heartbreak Hill and they run you up that bad boy for the start of a 30 miler. You’re carrying sort of about 25 pound on your back, plus your weapon on top and you’ve got to go and you’ve got to do it in eight hours. You stop every six miles, have a cup of Ribena and a banana. None of these energy drinks and protein shakes. That’s all we got every six miles. Then you finish. Everyone finishes at the same place, and you stand in a hollow square and they present you with a beret and it was the best achievement I ever made.

Payman L:
And yet outside when we were talking, also your lowest moment.

Danny Watson:
Yeah, big time.

Payman L:
Because you were so focused on it.

Danny Watson:
So focused on it. I went back to camp, and I say I wanted it for 12 years, got this green beret, back on camp with all the other green lids in 29 Commando and I just felt lost. I felt absolutely broken, I just didn’t know what I wanted in life. I actually felt like I was going to leave the Army. I actually said, “Guys, I’m going to leave”.

Payman L:
Burn out, is it?

Danny Watson:
Yeah, totally. I didn’t even train for 10 weeks. Luckily I was my own boss, I was a staff sergeant and I ran the rehab centre, so I’d literally just get up when I wanted, go into work, because they were still counting on me, these lads, but I’d get in like an hour late and as soon as I’d finish at four, five o’clock I’d just go to bed. Get in bed, for 10 weeks. I’d phone Allie and she’d be like, “I don’t know what to say to you, I don’t know what to do for you”, and there was nothing she could do. I just keep saying, “Why don’t I just leave, I want to just leave the Army.” Then I had a phone call, I had like an epiphany sort of thing, I had a phone call, one of my mentors that took me though my transfer course to the PT corps. His name is Benny, Carl Bennet. Absolute legend of a human being. Four foot 10. Black belt in Tai Kwan Do. Fourth of Great Britain, he’s a beast. He was so wise as well, he was a Geordie. I just phoned him up and said, “Benny, something’s up with me mate”, and he was just like, “Oh weird, Danny lad” he was like, “All you’ve got to do is switch your focus, kid.”

Danny Watson:
I was like yeah, cheers, mate. I’ve been trying to do that. But those words, it was really weird, so simple. And it was, “You just need to switch your focus, lad. Find something you love doing and just do something new.” It was so simple and I bet Allie’d said that a million times, but because he’s said it I was like yeah. And I thought there’s a Cross Fit gym down there and I’ve been doing it sort of roughly on my own before I stopped training that 10 weeks earlier and I thought, “What am I frightened of?” I need to get off camp, need to meet some people. Some real people. And I went down there and just fell in love with it. It was that community aspect of being around people and the training.

Payman L:
The extremes of that green beret training and then the extremes of war, and the extremes, they have to condition you for that. But then you’re starting a dental surgery, does that leave you as like an adrenaline junky or something? Do you ride fast motorbikes or… do you know what I mean? It’s just a totally different situation.

Danny Watson:
I don’t ride fast motorbikes. My wife wouldn’t let me have a motorbike. I’m not into fast cars, I’m not into anything like that.

Payman L:
To adrenaline?

Danny Watson:
I’m into physical challenges.

Payman L:
Tell us about the chin up thing.

Danny Watson:
I attempted to break the world record for strict pull ups, chin ups, pull ups. You know, hand super pronated rather than supernated. So not facing you, palms away, not facing you. I tried to break the strict pull up record for 24 hours, in December 2016. That got driven from, in 2005 I met a guy called Steve Highland. You can look him up on social media. He’s in his sixties now, the guy is still bashing out pull ups like nothing. He can do like 200 in like 10 minutes. It’s ridiculous. I remember speaking to him at a fitness event and I was like, I wonder if I can do that. He’d just broken the world record and I thought I wonder if I can do that. I was a bit scared to do it on my own, so I phoned my best mate up, Gibbo, who now lives in New Zealand, runs his own gym. I was like, “All right mate, how are you doing?” And we went, “Hey, I’m good, good. What’s up?” I went, “You fancy doing a charity event?”

Danny Watson:
This is back in 2008, so it took me three years to get to this point. I went, “You fancy doing seven chin ups and seven dips every minute for 24 hours?” And he went, “Yeah, yeah. We’ll do it.” There was no question. He was just like, “Yeah, why not, let’s do it to help heroes”. I was like, “Yeah, great”. So we actually did seven chin ups, seven dips every minute and he went let’s go do 20 minutes at lunch and see how it feels. It was really hard. At 20 minutes got back on the phone but we both did it. We got back on the phone and were like it’s doable, from 20 minutes. And we did it in 2008, so I put it to bed then. It’s just niggling away at the back of my head. In February 2016 I watched a guy, someone sent me a link to a Finnish guy doing chin ups in 24 hours and I went, “I’m just going to do it.” So I just messaged someone and said I’m doing it. When I told someone I was doing it.

Prav Solanki:
That was it.

Danny Watson:
I’m doing it. That’s how I roll anyway, that’s my whole thing in life. If you tell someone you’re going to do something you can’t back out of it. And I trained for it. I didn’t break it, that was…

Payman L:
Did it break you?

Danny Watson:
No, it did. And more so, that was my second lowest point after that.

Payman L:
Oh really.

Danny Watson:
Yeah, yeah. Physically and mentally. Mentally I’m probably still recovering from it.

Payman L:
Really?

Danny Watson:
Yeah because training wise I just haven’t got the fire in my belly. I still train four or five times a week, but I haven’t got the fire in my belly like I used to. It took my body to the point where I couldn’t actually do anymore pull ups. I did seven chin ups in an hour at the end of 19 hours. I must have failed, what do you reckon Prav? Probably about 60 of them, 70 of them?

Prav Solanki:
Yeah, yeah.

Danny Watson:
I just couldn’t grip onto the bar, I couldn’t pull. But I didn’t want to give up.

Prav Solanki:
It was awful to see because you see Danny as this chin up guru, right?

Payman L:
You were there in the room?

Prav Solanki:
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah I was there, however long you were there, but seeing him being such a strong, fit guy and then look so weak and fail. And not give up, and then to see Danny fall asleep, but his arms kept moving in his sleep as though he was doing chin ups.

Payman L:
Oh my goodness.

Prav Solanki:
He was like having these involuntary actions on his, he was a mess and then for weeks and months later you recovered slowly.

Danny Watson:
Slowly, yeah. I couldn’t even grip.

Prav Solanki:
But lots of good came out of that, Danny.

Danny Watson:
A lot of good. A lot of good. And that’s the thing in life. Out of every situation there’s always something really positive to come out of it. And that situation 17,000 pounds was raised for cleft lip and pallet, clapper. Then lots of friends, people who came, friendships were solidified. Business came out of it, didn’t it Prav? Me and you started a business together. And our relationship’s flourished from that. I don’t think any situation, obviously there’s a few situations where probably no good’s going to come out, but in most you can always take a positive, can’t you?

Payman L:
Yeah.

Danny Watson:
And push forwards. So yeah, physical challenge is one thing I do like doing. Maybe that’s my thing.

Payman L:
You said you were divorced. Was being in the military part of that?

Danny Watson:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

Payman L:
Is that a common story?

Danny Watson:
Yeah, 100%. Everyone, yeah. There’s a joke, if you’re not married and divorced and married again in the Army you’re not doing it right.

Payman L:
Really?

Danny Watson:
Because you’re away for a long period of time. It happened when I was away, she cheated on me when I was in Iraq the second time and I came back and she was just like, “Nah.” So…

Payman L:
How did that feel?

Danny Watson:
It was pretty shit, mate. Yeah, it was rubbish, but again, you dust yourself off. There’s no point wallowing in your own self pity because you’re not going to change the situation so you’re never look back. The funny thing is, I’ve got one of those minds. I’ve told you about it before, mate. I’ve got one of these things where once a door closes I never think about it pretty much again. Just look, what’s the next thing?

Payman L:
Compartmentalise?

Danny Watson:
Yeah, absolutely. Like going in the float tank, couldn’t remember any of that. Don’t remember any traumatic experience. It’s sort of like, it’s weird isn’t it?

Danny Watson:
Yeah, it’s weird.

Payman L:
It’s like a defence mechanism.

Danny Watson:
I think so, yeah. It must be. Must be.

Prav Solanki:
I remember first meeting Danny and I was reading Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People.

Payman L:
Great.

Danny Watson:
Yeah, brilliant book.

Prav Solanki:
An amazing book. But at the time I met Danny and he was-

Payman L:
At what stage, when was that? Was that before, when he was a soldier or was it dental?

Danny Watson:
I know exactly where I met you, mate. It was in Cross Fit 3D, you were sitting on the couch next to the window after you’d just had a PT session with Rick Whiteleg. You had your car outside and I was like, “Oh, this is quite a nice car”.

Payman L:
Lamborghini.

Danny Watson:
Yeah, it was that. I wasn’t going to say, but.

Prav Solanki:
Thanks, Pay.

Danny Watson:
I went, “That’s a nice car, can I have a ride in it?” And you said yeah, didn’t you! You were like, “Yeah mate, jump in, I’ll take you for a spin”. Then you asked me a couple of questions about what I’m doing in Manchester.

Prav Solanki:
Yeah.

Danny Watson:
You were like, “My brother’s a dentist” and I was like, “Oh, wow. Really?” And you were like, “Yeah, do you want me to get you some work experience with him?” And I was like, “That’d be unbelievable”. But I was in my foundation year, so I knew nothing about dentistry and I still don’t. Yeah, that’s where it all started.

Prav Solanki:
And so the point I was making was that, I was reading that book and I Danny was everything that book taught me. Dale Carnegie goes, “Always ask questions, always ask questions, always ask questions. Always be genuinely interested in the other person”, and that was you.

Payman L:
So it resonated with you because you were reading the book.

Prav Solanki:
Big time. Big time.

Danny Watson:
You never said, you’ve never ever, ever said that to me.

Payman L:
You didn’t know that?

Danny Watson:
I didn’t know that. That’s a good book.

Payman L:
And then you two started training with each other?

Prav Solanki:
I hired him.

Payman L:
Did you?

Danny Watson:
He was unbelievable. I was like yeah, yeah so… he was like, “I might try you”. I was new to this game, I was new to this game and he’s an old sweat at this game, you know. I didn’t know how much I was worth at the time and to be fair I was undercharging for it all because I didn’t value my own knowledge and experience and so I was like, “Yeah it’s 35 quid an hour, but if you buy in bulk 30 quid.”

Prav Solanki:
No 10, you said if I buy 10.

Danny Watson:
If you buy 10 it will be like 30 quid each session. “You went I’ve just put 30 sessions in your bank account”, I was like, “I’ve just won the lottery!” I was like, “Oh my God, what has just happened”. Then I was like how can I get these done quick? Do you want to do every day, mate? No, it was good wasn’t it? That’s how we started, I started training him. Then we’ve just become really good friends and it becomes uncomfortable for me to charge a friend, but you didn’t want to stop. So even when I categorically said I am giving up my personal training, I need to focus on my studies in the fourth year and fifth year, he was like, “I’ll come to your house, I’ll come to your house at six in the morning and train in your cold shed”. I had a full gym in this little shed, didn’t I?

Prav Solanki:
Tiny little space.

Danny Watson:
Cold, mate, in the winter.

Prav Solanki:
Made for people who are about five and a half foot.

Danny Watson:
Yeah, it was really low. We fit it all right. We did all right. I wouldn’t take any money off him then. It was like no way. He’d turn up once, twice a week. Tell you what, it was so cold. We had to have gloves on to pick the bars up. It was good wasn’t it?

Prav Solanki:
It was good times.

Payman L:
You’re into those ghetto gyms, generally, aren’t you? You’re not into the chichi gyms are you?

Prav Solanki:
Definitely not.

Danny Watson:
This boy, he knows how to train all right. He knows how to train really well. I’m so… you sit here, guys, and you obviously interview other people. I’m more interested in you guys. Prav knows when we spent the weekend together recently, as in last weekend, I just asked, I just love getting inside his head and like just before we started this, trying to find out a bit more about you. I find people very, very, very interesting. Why they do the things they do. Prav, for instance, used to be a body builder when he was going through Oxford, you know, clever guy. Then got some serious injuries and lost his way for a bit and keep pecking his head. You know, you need to start mate, you need to start, you need to start.

Danny Watson:
Like I just said, you can hear it and hear it and hear it but then someone says something to you and it switches. And his was Bobby, his wife. Literally was like said a sentence to him and next day, boom. Back on it, and now he looks incredible six months in. It just goes to show when you set your mind to something and you really want it, and you have a plan, and you stick to it consistently, there’s no secret. There’s no secret to any success I don’t think. Irrelevant of what you gauge success to be. Some people’s success will be having lots of things and lots of money, whereas for other people success is having time with your friends and family. Sitting down and read a book, where I can read for two hours a day. For them it’s a lot to have achieved it. It doesn’t matter what it is, you should never snub anyone for what they’re really proud of. It’s really cool isn’t it? It’s like now he’s flying and you’re probably performing better in business-

Prav Solanki:
Totally.

Danny Watson:
And everything, with your family, your kids.

Prav Solanki:
Yeah, yeah, yeah everything.

Danny Watson:
It’s great.

Payman L:
He’s a bit of an obsessive type. I know probably you were procrastinating because you knew, once you jump in you’re jumping in.

Prav Solanki:
I think with the fitness challenge, and it’s a curse as well as gift, right? You know you’ve been there, you know exactly what you need to do to get there and so you can take your foot off the gas and have some cocky arrogance and confidence that you can bounce back, but I tell you something. You cannot even begin to think about or measure what damage you are doing inside.

Danny Watson:
Oh, mate.

Prav Solanki:
Yeah. So I put weight on, I got fat. I was 20 kilos heavier than I am today, right? But what about the clogs in my arteries? What about the damage that’s happened internally that I can’t see? Yeah, I can sit there with arrogance and confidence and say yeah, I can lose 20 kilos like that. Not easy, but I can do it, but I won’t be undoing the irreversible damage that I’ve done whilst I’ve been abusing my body.

Danny Watson:
And you might never.

Prav Solanki:
And I might never. That in itself is, it’s a regret for sure.

Danny Watson:
Yeah, but it’s a cool journey, mate.

Prav Solanki:
Yeah, I’m enjoying it.

Danny Watson:
Yeah, absolutely.

Payman L:
You’ve trained thousands of people, right?

Danny Watson:
Yeah.

Payman L:
What kind of types, did you manage to break them all into it? What types of people do you get? Is everyone fully motivated when they come to you or some people?

Danny Watson:
Absolutely not. There’s, again, I’m a big believer in this sliding spectrum of people, you’ve got these type A people who are just-

Payman L:
It’s as much about psychology as [crosstalk 00:52:04].

Danny Watson:
100%. It’s all about motivators. What motivates the individual to do something. So like normally those people that you see that are gym obsessed, they’ve got some sort of body dysmorphia. Or, they’re narcissistic. [inaudible 00:52:18]. And they don’t necessarily love themselves. That’s a really big mistake people are like, “Oh my god, he loves himself”. Actually, don’t. It’s the polar opposite and they’re quite insecure about it, whereas then the other side of things, there’s someone who, again, still feels the same, absolutely loathes themselves, or almost. But they’re trying to change, they’re trying to get healthy for different reasons. That might be they’ve just had a kid or a loved one might have passed away, or they just all of a sudden went, “I need to do it”. But they’re scared to start because they look a certain way, so coming into the gym, I’m a big advocate of Cross Fit because it’s a community driven training system where you’re not isolated on your own and everyone brings you up and no one’s judging. I’ve seen all sorts. Some people take it on board.

Danny Watson:
It’s not for everyone. There’s a famous saying, it’s says, “Fitness in general”, it’s a Cross Fit person, Greg Glassman said this. He goes, “It’s for anyone, but it’s not for everyone”, and that’s fitness in general. And that means fitness is for anyone but it’s not for everyone.

Payman L:
I get it.

Danny Watson:
So it’s available for everyone, but not everyone will take it up.

Payman L:
Not everyone will take you up.

Danny Watson:
Exactly.

Prav Solanki:
So moving forward, Danny, what exciting new challenges have you got ahead? What doors are you closing, what doors are you opening, moving forward?

Danny Watson:
Job wise, moving out of my first year of foundation training and moving out of the MHS into private dentistry, going to work for your brother. So [inaudible 00:54:07], up in Kiss Dental, and that’s super exciting. Also a little bit daunting, if I’m honest. But really exciting. It’s just a learning platform, isn’t it? To learn and just keep improving and improving. I think you do that in any job you go into. I’m mega chuffed to start in September full time and learn there. Personally, at home I’m going to be a dad next month, so that’s probably an even bigger challenge, to be honest. I am really excited about that, it’s like two years of trying, losing a baby, and now my fingers crossed it all goes well. That’s going to be pretty cool. I know you’re both dads, aren’t you?

Prav Solanki:
Yeah.

Payman L:
Yeah.

Danny Watson:
Best job in the world.

Payman L:
Professionally, do you think you’re going to set your sights on something in dentistry that you’re going to treat like that green beret?

Danny Watson:
I don’t know, at the moment.

Payman L:
I mean, at Kiss Dental it makes a lot of sense to learn implants.

Danny Watson:
Yeah, the thing is I want to do something I like doing, and the other thing is, I don’t want to pigeonhole myself into something. I quite like the idea of being a generalist, but you’ve got to have a little niche. Have to.

Payman L:
Just ask those 700-800 implants a year go in.

Danny Watson:
Yeah.

Payman L:
It’s a great opportunity to learn something about that for sure.

Danny Watson:
And it’s endless. You know, you’ve got like Kay’s going away to Brazil learning to do zygomatic and doing Pterygoid implants, constantly learning different tricks. That side of things is always progressing, you know. The way dentistry’s changing, there’s a lot of digital dentistry. It’s going to be ridiculous, isn’t it? It’s going so quick, so you’ve just got to be on board with it. I haven’t figured out what it is, just yet.

Payman L:
I think you’re very luck with Kaylesh, because I remember we started doing composites 8-9 years ago and he said, “Nah, not for me,” and now composites are a thing and now 40% of his business is composites.

Danny Watson:
Yeah.

Payman L:
He’s so flexible.

Danny Watson:
I know, yeah.

Payman L:
Flexible and willing to learn and find out the best way to do something, the quickest way to do something. It’s a great opportunity just to get a bit of his mindset in dentistry.

Danny Watson:
Yeah, that’s why I’ve obviously been shadowing and watching, a watcher, listener and learner of… when if first shadowed him at that time, he didn’t want to learn nothing about composites. He goes, “I haven’t got time for that, mate. I’m doing implants, I’m doing veneers, or ceramics”, and stuff like that. Now, doing loads of composite work.

Payman L:
Super flexible.

Danny Watson:
Yeah, he’s skilled as well. He’s a fast learner.

Payman L:
Definitely.

Danny Watson:
A fast learner.

Prav Solanki:
So Danny, your last day on the planet, mate. What three pieces of advice are you going to leave with the world?

Danny Watson:
Be around someone you really, really like. So it’s your last day, go and find them. As long as their around, obviously. Be around them. Keep your family as close as possible to you. Life’s too short to be arguing. The other thing is, always look at the positive side of every situation you’re in. Three.

Prav Solanki:
That’s beautiful. Thanks, Danny.

Danny Watson:
Cheers, guys.

Payman L:
That’s amazing. Thank you.

Outro Voice:
This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki:
Thank you for tuning in, guys, to the Dental Leaders podcast. Just got a little request to make, if you’ve got a suggestion of somebody else that we should be interviewing or somebody who’s got a really strong story, powerful story to share with us, please send us a message and help us connect with that individual so we can bring their story to the surface.

Payman L:
Thank you so much for taking the time, guys. If you got some value out of it think about sharing it with your friends and subscribing to the channel. Thank you guys.

Prav Solanki:
Don’t for get that six start review.

Annika Patel: You need to be confident with your wire bending. You know, I work with some specialists that can’t white bend and I’m like, [00:00:05] what the hell are you a specialist for? Then if you repositioning brackets because that’s expensive. I think it’s knowing [00:00:10] the red flags and the green flags, because everybody that’s coming for ortho is either [00:00:15] got a deadline, getting married. There’s always something. It’s something cosmetic around it, you know, and then the costumes, [00:00:20] like, you know, if they’re missing teeth, the implant plan, the soft, you know, soft tissue, hard tissue, all of the grafting, [00:00:25] plus your ortho plus your cosmetic, being able to sell big treatment plans and [00:00:30] being competent at saying ABC, this is what you need, and having it all like informed [00:00:35] consent at the beginning. Quick quotes, knowing what’s going on. I think that’s hard.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:45] is mind movers. Moving [00:00:50] the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation [00:00:55] for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:01:00] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Welcome [00:01:05] to the Mind Movers podcast. Today we have an incredible dentist who is [00:01:10] one of the top orthodontists in the country. An incredibly inspiring woman. Annika Payman knows [00:01:15] I rarely invite dentists on the podcast because that’s his thing with dental Leaders. But when [00:01:20] I feel that somebody has something really special and a story to tell, I think it’s really important to share it [00:01:25] to the wider community, because obviously Mind Movers is about reaching different types of audiences. [00:01:30] So welcome, Annika, and we know that, you know, you are a incredible [00:01:35] dentist working in London. You’ve been an orthodontist for how many years? Ten years, [00:01:40] ten years? Private practice. You’re also a mother of two. Yes. And your husband is [00:01:45] also an owner of a practice that you work at as well. Yeah, yeah. Amazing. And I know that you have other hobbies [00:01:50] as well. We talk about your boxing, your yoga and other things. And I think one of the reasons why I [00:01:55] was drawn to you is because you are somebody that likes to do different things outside [00:02:00] of dentistry. You like to interact with people that are outside of dentistry. And for me that’s like really important. So welcome. [00:02:05] Thank you. So good to have you. So I like to start from [00:02:10] the beginning, you know, like some people have like very varied childhoods where they like tell us like, [00:02:15] you know, they’ve really struggled. There’s some people we had a guest last week that was like my childhood was amazing. Like [00:02:20] as in, like, there’s nothing really to tell. But for me, it’s always interesting because I think, you know, our childhood certainly shapes who we are. [00:02:25] So tell us a little bit about your background and you know how you grew up.

Annika Patel: So I, I would [00:02:30] say I realise that my childhood for me was normal until I got to uni. Um, [00:02:35] I was, you know, don’t come from a very privileged background. I had to work really hard, um, when, [00:02:40] I mean, work really hard. As soon as as soon as I got my own eyes. Get to work. Work in [00:02:45] retail, do all of this stuff. I ended up working in Currys for seven years. Oh, wow. Because, like, I [00:02:50] was a customer services agent, which is how I got the job with Nikki Martin, because they were like, God, you’re a [00:02:55] grafter. You worked for seven years at Currys. I was like, yeah, um, I used to, you know, do these [00:03:00] like long weekend shifts and then work in sort of the local hospital as well and just, you know, working [00:03:05] like mad hours and mad weeks and, you know, you’re like, oh, I’m 18 [00:03:10] and I’m rich. What do I do? And then, you know, because you know that your parents don’t have a lot. Or [00:03:15] anything like that. It’s one of those situations that you’re not a spender. You’re not sort of, you know, let me buy everything. [00:03:20] Let me look at this. I’ve got money in my account. It was sort of you. It it’s instilled from me from such an early [00:03:25] age that you’ve actually got to, you know, save, invest, you know, look after the people around [00:03:30] you, that sort of thing. So, you know, I had friends around me that were like, you know, working in next, you know, anywhere. And they were [00:03:35] just like, oh my God, got my paycheque. Like, yeah, literally splashed the cash type thing. Um, but [00:03:40] no, it’s been difficult. You know, it’s a struggle. You know, I did go to private school, but it was a struggle. It was literally [00:03:45] get the grades or you lose your assisted place, like do this. So were you.

Rhona Eskander: On a scholarship? Yeah. [00:03:50]

Annika Patel: So partial. Yeah. And, um, you know, it was a struggle and it was always, you [00:03:55] know, I’ve got Asian parents there, you know, from Uganda. They, you know, they came here via refugees, [00:04:00] kind of one of those situations where you’re like, I’ve got to do what I can [00:04:05] do because I had to stay working in curries for the rest of my life, or I do something else, you [00:04:10] know? You know, they were never pushy parents. They were never sort of like, you know, study, study, [00:04:15] study. I had a lot of freedom as a child because I’ve had to mature, you know, I’ve had to mature really, really fast. [00:04:20] And, you know, I remember starting work and everyone was so much older than me, and I was just had to kind of learn [00:04:25] things, and that’s good and bad. You know, I fell into wrong crowd. So, you know, didn’t get the grades, [00:04:30] didn’t do. There’s a lot that I learned, but I always learn lessons from negatives, like, there’s no way about it. And that’s literally [00:04:35] why I know when I first met you, you were like, God, I, you know, can’t break you [00:04:40] type thing. You’re very resilient and, you know, and that kind of way. But I’ve had so many situations because I’m not a conformist. [00:04:45] I just literally I just do what I want, when I want, but I’m mature enough to know situations. Yeah, [00:04:50] I think.

Payman Langroudi: That working in retail gives you a wonderful sort of exposure to different types [00:04:55] of people.

Annika Patel: It does, it does. It’s um, I mean, customer services at Currys was an amazing. [00:05:00] Oh, God, my cooker is broken. It’s Christmas. You’re like, yeah, all right. Great. Now you know that sort of situation. [00:05:05] But it doing working when you’re young and doing different types of things [00:05:10] and seeing how business is run and seeing. Yeah, you know, at that time nothing was electronic. I mean [00:05:15] I’m showing my age a little bit. It was a very like type de de de de de y and like it was that situation, [00:05:20] you know, so it was different. It wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t as easy as it is now. And you had [00:05:25] a lot of responsibility. Sickness was taken seriously. You know, nowadays I don’t think sickness is, you know, anyone can call in [00:05:30] sick and you ring a temp agency, don’t you? I remember back then they used to monitor on a percentage and say, you know, [00:05:35] you’ve had more than 6%, you get a disciplinary and it was mass retail, you know. [00:05:40] So all of these things you take and even the people I worked with on the desk, they were like, you know [00:05:45] what, Annie, why don’t you sit at the back and, um, you know, study. You’ve got your, you know, all through dentistry. I was at dental school [00:05:50] working in Cardiff, you know, and they’d be like, sit at the back.

Payman Langroudi: Did you work throughout the dental course as well?

Rhona Eskander: Wow. My [00:05:55] whole thing. I want to know, how did you get into dentistry? Was it something you fell into? Was something your parents, I mean, [00:06:00] you know, like your parents encouraged you because obviously, as you said, like being a middle eastern. For [00:06:05] me, it was like medicine, dentistry, law, you know, engineering, I’m sure same [00:06:10] like Iranian background, like, you know, you’ve got your kind of like degrees, but then the degrees are [00:06:15] considered to be kind of credible. I’m lucky that I love dentistry. I speak to a lot of dentists. I’m sure you do that. Like, I [00:06:20] only did it because of my parents, because of, like, culture. What was your story for dentistry?

Annika Patel: So I didn’t fall [00:06:25] into it. I wasn’t an academic throughout school. I actually played in orchestra. [00:06:30] I was I had three instruments. I used to do orchestra after school. I played double bass clarinet, piano. [00:06:35] Piano was an orchestral thing, you know, that was my life and I could paint. So I did a lot of art and music. [00:06:40] So I did, you know, art took over basically because you have to provide a lot of quality and quantity. [00:06:45] So I was like, screw science. No one cares. No one cares about year nine, year ten. [00:06:50] I applied to be a young presenter. Tv presenter. Wow. Um, GMTV with, uh, Fran Cotton [00:06:55] and I got through to the final four. Wow, wow. And that was the first time that I [00:07:00] thought I was winning. And then I lost. You know that first heartbreak that you have? Yeah, it was, [00:07:05] you know, a bit of a a bit of a struggle actually, because it was I went to a school and it was all about league tables [00:07:10] and it was all about doing well. And I wasn’t an academic. I was a 5050, you know? So I [00:07:15] was like, yes, I’m going to get out of school, I’m going to leave school, I’m going to go to drama school, I’m going to, you know, do all of this other stuff and, [00:07:20] you know, spent a year kind of, you know, training myself through auditions, passing auditions, [00:07:25] and like, I’m bloody good at the creatives.

Annika Patel: This is something I’m good at after not being good [00:07:30] at so many things. And then obviously it didn’t go well. Then the school like you have to like [00:07:35] tone it down now you need to go to school. You need to do your juicer seeds. You need to do separate sciences. We’re choosing your subjects [00:07:40] for you. You’re not allowed to do art and music at the same time. You choose one. If you want to do art, you need [00:07:45] to do art school. And my whole life just got laid out not by my parents, but by the school I went to, [00:07:50] which was, it’s ridiculous because it’s not me, you know? And I was good at stupid things like electronics, [00:07:55] you know? Yeah, like really stupid things. And, um, I [00:08:00] was like, fine, but going into A-levels, I’m still going to carry on my art because that was [00:08:05] who I was. That was literally. And then even when I got my A-level results at that time, you had to get an A and tubes to get into [00:08:10] dental school. Now I was going to do history of art at uni.

Annika Patel: I wasn’t doing dentistry and the eight [00:08:15] people in my art A-level were all going to fine art, going to Wimbledon, going to Goldsmiths, everybody. We [00:08:20] were all on the same course. The people that had reached this at our school, it was pretty strict. So [00:08:25] if you’d reached your ceiling in art then you would you weren’t allowed to sit the A-level basically, [00:08:30] because you couldn’t do any more. So for me they were like, no, you can. There’s [00:08:35] so much you can do, like you haven’t reached your potential, keep going kind of thing. I got my a of [00:08:40] got my a. Yeah. But my school refused to let me apply for dentistry because I was [00:08:45] too thick basically. So they said I had to apply for biomedical sciences before that. [00:08:50] I wasn’t happy with that because I didn’t really want to do pre-med. I didn’t want to do science, like it wasn’t really my thing. [00:08:55] And so I had to beg them. I literally had to talk them into letting me do a maths level, just [00:09:00] to kind of have the fourth subject or whatever. I went to my interviews as well for dental school, [00:09:05] like without the grades. So I just I was like, look, look at my, look at my extracurricular. You know, [00:09:10] I do this.

Rhona Eskander: So they accepted you for the interviews?

Annika Patel: Yeah. Accepted me for the interviews. They accepted [00:09:15] me with my art portfolio, which was this big that I took from my manual dexterity. They got very excited by [00:09:20] a sweet, sweet corn batik that I did because they’d never seen a batik, which is like silk with wax. And you blur [00:09:25] the, um.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you study? Kings?

Annika Patel: Everything, guys. [00:09:30] For everything.

Rhona Eskander: So then you’ve got the grades, then after that. So they give, you got the grades, so they got you, gave you conditional offer. I’m assuming [00:09:35] three. I mean, they gave me it was Atb’s.

Annika Patel: But the A could be in any subject. So the one I picked, you know, when you [00:09:40] went to get your A-level results, they basically were like there was an envelope and I’m like, could [00:09:45] you please ring King’s College and actually ask them if you can get in with an A and Art? And I was like, [00:09:50] wow, this is going to keep going the whole of my life. Yeah. Um, and then got [00:09:55] to dental school and I was like, who the hell are these people?

Rhona Eskander: Same. I mean, what. [00:10:00]

Annika Patel: Is this like?

Rhona Eskander: You never forget which people?

Payman Langroudi: The other students.

Annika Patel: Yeah. Not my type. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: And that’s [00:10:05] the thing. Like, because this is one thing that we always talk about, I will never forget. Really, weirdly, [00:10:10] I went to go visit Bristol. Two of my friends, they were studying English and politics because when I was at school [00:10:15] I was really like good. I was really good at chemistry, actually, but I was [00:10:20] amazing at English Lit and philosophy, and I ended [00:10:25] up choosing English Lit and philosophy and for a level, and that was fine. And my teachers were like, [00:10:30] she’s got to go to Oxford. Like they took me to Oxford and they were like, she’s got to go here. And obviously at that [00:10:35] time I was like, really like loved like the whole Harry Potter thing that was going [00:10:40] on in Oxford and like these, like Prince William type guys. And I’d never seen that growing up [00:10:45] in kind of like London. And I wanted to get go to Bristol and Bristol. I guess I wanted [00:10:50] to go because I felt like it would suit me more socially, and Bristol rejected me. So Bristol [00:10:55] gave me the interview and they rejected me. And I’ll never forget the interview. Like I literally went probably hair similar [00:11:00] to this, earrings, a suit, like all this stuff. And you could tell they didn’t like me immediately and they [00:11:05] were asking me really weird questions.

Rhona Eskander: Cut the interview short, and then I got a rejection. And then my mum’s. And I was [00:11:10] devastated, I was devastated, so what happened was, is [00:11:15] that after that I, um, when I got my Leeds interview, my mum said, [00:11:20] tone down who you are. Wear a plain suit, no jewellery, no makeup, straighten your hair [00:11:25] and just basically talk about how passionate you are about the NHS. And [00:11:30] guess what? I got the place. And it’s really sad because I tell this story because I had I felt like I had to be someone I wasn’t [00:11:35] to get a place into dentistry because I feel like the people that choose the applicants [00:11:40] choose it based on some kind of like ideal. If they have, I don’t know. He’s like giving me a dirty look. I don’t know what [00:11:45] that means. And but wait for it. Then I got to dental school, Leeds and I was the same as [00:11:50] you. I was like, who are these people? They were just not my people. And because I went to Leeds as well, [00:11:55] a lot of them were like, you sound really posh, you know? And I was like, okay. And they were like, they kind of making fun of my [00:12:00] accent and stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Look, University is about meeting people who are not your people. That’s what university [00:12:05] is. I’m surprised you were surprised because you’d met all these people in curries and [00:12:10] all that. So you. I would have thought you’d be able to deal with.

Annika Patel: I’m from South London.

Rhona Eskander: Any anyone [00:12:15] from south London?

Annika Patel: Not from north London. And the whole of King’s is north London. And yeah, [00:12:20] it’s different. It’s very different.

Payman Langroudi: But what I was going to say though, you know, maybe you rub these people up the wrong way [00:12:25] with your hair. Yeah. It’s possible, it’s possible. But I remember with my interviews I said something [00:12:30] in one of them and it went down really well. And I said the exact same thing in another one. It [00:12:35] went down like a lead balloon. Yeah. And and I know it was a bit political or something maybe. [00:12:40]

Annika Patel: But I but.

Rhona Eskander: But I personally think that dental school is so old [00:12:45] school. Sorry, excuse the pun, but like. It is for me. Dentistry. [00:12:50] Dental school is about choosing people that fit a stereotype. [00:12:55] That’s what I believe. And they want to see that you’re the kind of person that will give your [00:13:00] soul to an institution. Basically, that’s what I think. And also even [00:13:05] now when I speak to dental students, their professors really sadly [00:13:10] slag off like Instagram dentists or even technology like, you know, they [00:13:15] might say like, oh, look at this dentist that’s done like a bio emulation technique and an old school professor, like, it doesn’t [00:13:20] work. It will fail immediately. Do you know what I mean? Like, I feel like it’s so backward. That’s my personal view. [00:13:25] You know.

Payman Langroudi: What? It’s skewed a little bit in that when you’re a student, the only dentist you meet [00:13:30] are university teachers. And university teachers are a very particular type of dentist. [00:13:35] Yeah. They’re maybe I don’t know, they’re 2% of all dentists, but that’s the only type of dentist that you [00:13:40] need. Yeah. And so yeah, you’re right. Those guys are more conservative. Yeah.

Annika Patel: I think when [00:13:45] you’ve done the full loop like I have where I know how you feel, and I remember being like that. And you’re right, [00:13:50] you do meet your people. So I was lucky I did meet my people. And they were luckily all from Stratham and south [00:13:55] London. And I did meet my little group, and I’ve got really good uni friends that I’m still friends with, you know. And [00:14:00] I did struggle because, you know, the holidays, everyone else was going on holiday and I was going to curries [00:14:05] and my shirt was going from blue to yellow, you know, that kind of situation.

Payman Langroudi: And of course, it’s hard enough [00:14:10] working. How many hours a week were you working?

Annika Patel: Oh, so I was doing all of [00:14:15] the summers. I was doing pretty much, what, 9 to 5 at the hospital full time? Yeah, on the PC, because I was doing little [00:14:20] project like, you know, when someone has like an MRI, I was like the person with the.

Rhona Eskander: What’s [00:14:25] that word called?

Annika Patel: You know, that sort of. You know, I did everything, just stapling. I did anything [00:14:30] on the bank. I was a bank stuff. Right. And I was doing that as soon as I got my knee, so I wasn’t [00:14:35] I wasn’t allowed to climb ladders until I got my card. But, you know, I was pretty much there. So I ended up working in every department [00:14:40] in cardiology, everything around the hospital. So I knew how the NHS worked, I knew how hospitals worked, and then [00:14:45] I’d get come out. The 209 bus would be there, and then I’d get the bus around to curries. Wow. And then I’d [00:14:50] do the 5 to 8 shift. So I would do that constantly every [00:14:55] time we had like the eight week break or, you know. Yeah. Um, and I did it and, [00:15:00] you know, it was for me. It didn’t feel like it felt it wasn’t sort of like, [00:15:05] you know, some people get, um, you know, they see the numbers stacking up in their bank account and that’s what [00:15:10] gives them value. But for me, it just felt like security. That’s what it was. You know, I never used to check my accounts or anything. Just [00:15:15] it felt like security. So and it helped because I had to put myself through dental school. I had to [00:15:20] also pay for the ortho, you know. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Well, like, let’s talk about that. So when you graduated, [00:15:25] did you ever have a period of working in general practice?

Annika Patel: I did so like I did with curries all the way [00:15:30] through dental school. I worked in a, my practice in Brixton all the way through ortho as well. So [00:15:35] I did the same thing, but like on a Saturday. So when did you.

Rhona Eskander: Decide you wanted to be an orthodontist?

Annika Patel: So I had a [00:15:40] bit of a rubbish V2 experience. Um, I Brixton, I was.

Rhona Eskander: Going to say imagine. Yeah.

Annika Patel: No, [00:15:45] my trainer just decided not to be there, supportive or there or anything. Um, [00:15:50] I think it’s quite easy sometimes just to take the money and run and then just keep, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, you do hear stories. [00:15:55]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. My trainer was very supportive, to be honest. Go on. Yeah. So it was.

Annika Patel: A bit of a situation like that. [00:16:00] And I’m a strong enough character to be like, you know what, let me just get my phone out and ring someone from, you know, ring [00:16:05] a friend of a friend from King’s who’s an Sho at the moment or what should I do? Or the stench doesn’t fit. So I had enough common [00:16:10] sense to say, actually, don’t panic. You know, there’s stuff that you can do. But, you [00:16:15] know, I wasn’t getting that support at all, and I couldn’t really work out. What is this? What I want to [00:16:20] do? Is this actually what I want to do? Because I was told to do all this stuff, and then I thought I [00:16:25] changed the dentistry in A-levels only because my friends were doing it and stuff like that, and I was like the FOMO of [00:16:30] oh, should I do art? Should you know it? Nothing made sense to me. So the, um, [00:16:35] educational head, the TPD, um, had a meeting with me, took me for a jacket potato, and he just asked me a few [00:16:40] random questions about JIC and stuff. Um, and he’s like, oh, I just don’t think you’re a [00:16:45] bad dentist. You seem to know everything. I was like, I know everything, but I don’t have the support. [00:16:50] Like, you know, I get it. Everyone has a different style of teaching, but I just don’t believe people should [00:16:55] be a teacher if they can’t teach, you know? And I teach and train and do things like that now. [00:17:00] And when I see some of the knowledge that people are absorbing from just back to back 50 slides [00:17:05] on a PowerPoint versus, you know, actually stand up, tell me what you want. You know, it’s [00:17:10] it’s just different techniques essentially, you know, so, you know, I don’t begrudge my trainer. [00:17:15] It’s fine. But on the back of that I was just like, I’m going into show, forget this. As [00:17:20] soon as I went into show, you know, did you like it? Met my people. It was amazing. So everybody [00:17:25] that does backing goes back. So I did a few. I did Saint George’s, uh, guys, max backs. [00:17:30] You know.

Rhona Eskander: All the thing that you say that because obviously, you know leader, she’s one of my best friends. And she said [00:17:35] to me her show year was one of the most difficult years of her life. She was she said she [00:17:40] was an Oxford and, you know, she was doing all the, like, Christmas shifts and all that stuff. And like she said [00:17:45] that she’ll never forget the first day she was put into hospital. And obviously, like, there’s the overlap with medicine, [00:17:50] right. Because she was doing Max FACs and then basically they threw her into a ward and I think someone had like lung [00:17:55] problems and they were like, do something. And she was like, but I don’t know, I’m a dentist. Like all the patient’s going to die. Then, you know, it was very like [00:18:00] a bullying kind of thing, especially when the consultants and she found it really difficult. That is true of Max. Yeah. [00:18:05]

Annika Patel: I’m the 94 that the oral surgery piece, all the dental specialities. It’s a different thing. Yeah. To the point [00:18:10] that the oral surgery for all 23 guys, I ended up skiing with them every year from age 21 [00:18:15] to when I had my maybe my three year old. Yeah. Wow. And I’m going again, Jan. So I’m back again, [00:18:20] you know. Yeah. Um, because it’s just different. It’s different types of people. [00:18:25] They’re not sort of money orientated. They’re not business orientated. They’re kind of, [00:18:30] you know, they’re just different.

Payman Langroudi: People mission orientated. Yeah.

Annika Patel: They’re just [00:18:35] it’s completely different. You know, during Covid they all they cared about was their waiting lists, you know really like no, we need to [00:18:40] get all these teeth. We need to extract, extract, extract. Even if everyone’s doing splitting the day into three sessions [00:18:45] we’ll get it done. Like they completely different mindset. Yeah. So yeah Max banks like [00:18:50] I do understand because nobody teaches you to do a death in dentistry. Yeah. People [00:18:55] do die on max Max wards. And again that just builds you because you know, you’re going into Max Max not to [00:19:00] become an orthodontist, but because actually, what am I going to take from this? What? How is that going to change me or [00:19:05] build me?

Rhona Eskander: She did that pre ortho. Actually, I don’t know why we had to. You have something after three months. Yeah. [00:19:10] So you didn’t have to though. Why did you. Six. You said it afterwards. No I did at Saint George’s. Okay fine. [00:19:15]

Annika Patel: So I went to guy’s and went to Saint George’s. So how did.

Rhona Eskander: You know ortho was your thing to do?

Annika Patel: It wasn’t [00:19:20] actually. So I was again because I can’t very indecisive. So it’s between oral surgery. And also. [00:19:25] Yeah, because obviously I was really good friends with the oral surgeons. You know, I like the [00:19:30] fact that I’ve got manual dexterity. I’m, I know I can be an.

Rhona Eskander: Artist as well. You said. Yeah, I like [00:19:35] wire.

Annika Patel: Bending and stuff like that, especially speciality training. I don’t think anyone knows what they really, really [00:19:40] want to do. And all anyone ever tells you is you’re never going to get in. It’s sort of, you know, needle in a haystack situation. [00:19:45] So actually, one of my cousins gave me the advice of get a blank form, try [00:19:50] and fill it out. Just see what you see, what you got. Just try and fill it out and then build on it. So [00:19:55] I did and I said, oh my God, I fill out the whole application form. So I did and sent her like that. Was it really? [00:20:00] But then when you go through the interview process, it’s the same shit again. It’s literally like, well, just let’s because. [00:20:05]

Rhona Eskander: I’m sure there’s lots of people that are very curious. Is it? It’s a hugely competitive speciality. [00:20:10] Hugely. So. Do you know any of the stats, like how many people actually get in and stuff like that. [00:20:15]

Annika Patel: Don’t really know the stats because things have changed. You know, I qualified, I got in [00:20:20] when what, 13, 14 years ago. So things are definitely changed. And for me it was sort of based London, [00:20:25] the North. It was different and now it’s national.

Rhona Eskander: So what did they judge you to get in for? So when you apply how [00:20:30] do they judge you. Like like how do they give you a place.

Annika Patel: So you fill out a form and you have to have a publication. [00:20:35] You have to have done an audit, show evidence of clinical governance, had a bad thing happen to you, or a difficult [00:20:40] situation like A&E or, you know, fractured mandible, something like that. And then when you go to say a deanery [00:20:45] interview, it’s a set thing where you have different three panels. You might have one on academics, [00:20:50] one on clinical governance, one on just extra bits and bobs, and then it’s panels of four, [00:20:55] and then they just score you based on your answers. I know that I probably didn’t pass any of those panels because I didn’t really know [00:21:00] what they were talking about to be said. Yeah, well, what are you actually asking me? You know what? And have you done [00:21:05] your mjff. That’s another tick point, right? The Mjff.

Rhona Eskander: I did that.

Annika Patel: Too.

Rhona Eskander: Did you paid for it for years. [00:21:10] And then I got rid of it. I was like, what’s the point of paying? You know, it’s silly.

Annika Patel: Um, but you have to have your mjff [00:21:15] part one to be able to do the RCS for the Mauth and stuff like that. But I know the only reason I got in it was [00:21:20] because I think I’ll name him Martin Coburn. Last panel came in, I think [00:21:25] he’d had enough of all of these people coming in. So, Annie, what was the last book you read? [00:21:30] What’s the last book I read? Okay. And I think he’d had To Kill a mockingbird maybe 56 times. [00:21:35] And I was just like, oh, um, they’re giving away a free, um, Rick Stein’s new cookbook. It was free on [00:21:40] on the on the tube because it’s well booked. And I was like, just read it on the tube, basically. Um, all right. Heavy [00:21:45] seafood. Yeah. But, you know, whatever. And then he just. I just saw his eyes light up, [00:21:50] and he was just like, conversation. I was like, yeah, it was a conversation. It shouldn’t be so hardcore. [00:21:55] Life shouldn’t be so intense. Like, you know, just because you’ve got this criteria and this kind of syllabus, [00:22:00] you know. It would be outside the box, you know? I mean, I [00:22:05] believe that space is the like I literally believe this one thing that Matisse said, space is the dimension of [00:22:10] your imagination. So you can do anything. You can be anything you can. Do anything, [00:22:15] but you can’t conform. You can’t just be 1 to 10 on a list or, you know, that kind of thing.

Rhona Eskander: But this [00:22:20] is what I try to say. That is that people they want, they want. Especially like when [00:22:25] I was studying dentistry, they wanted people to conform. And I just found it really, [00:22:30] really. There was a couple of like professors. I still remember them and bless him, like one of the dean apparently [00:22:35] now like talks with me of Pride at Leeds and he just retired and the students asked [00:22:40] me to do a video for him because apparently he still because he was one of the he was actually an endodontist and he [00:22:45] was a dean. And like I think he saw because the funny thing was, is I [00:22:50] wanted to another similarity. I wanted to be a TV presenter as like another job. If people ask me, what would [00:22:55] you do if you weren’t a dentist? I would have loved to be a TV presenter. I loved [00:23:00] it because the AC she loves it.

Annika Patel: I applied to most like. [00:23:05]

Rhona Eskander: But like pay. Come on. Like podcasting in a way. Is TV presenting [00:23:10] like think about it, it’s presenting, right? So for me, I was always comfortable in front of the camera [00:23:15] and I just loved it. Like three years old, like you’d see my dad, like with the video camera, like push my sister out the way [00:23:20] and I’m like, dancing away. And I just loved it. And I always felt like I could connect with a camera [00:23:25] and an audience really, really well. And I felt that, you know, you could always kind of like, portray [00:23:30] a message. But if I’m honest with you, one regret I have in my life is that I think I had self-limiting [00:23:35] beliefs, number one, because of the narrative that only one person in like a billion makes [00:23:40] it as a successful TV presenter. Number two, that, you know, within like the Middle Eastern, [00:23:45] like society. And the way that I was brought up, it was like, well, you’ve also got a shelf life. Like, how long are you going to [00:23:50] do it for? And then like, how are you going to have money after that? So that was all that. And it was interesting because [00:23:55] I was listening to Maya Jama, I think like her story. And Maya said that when she was like 13, [00:24:00] she knew she wanted to be a TV presenter or even younger. And she put it like [00:24:05] on her vision board that even like by like 25, she was going to be like presenting the Brits [00:24:10] or whatever it was. And I was like, you know, I truly am a believer that if you really want to do something, you can [00:24:15] make it happen. And I think it was probably the self-limiting belief that made me believe that I couldn’t do it. Just like, no. [00:24:20]

Annika Patel: That is the most important thing because for most people within what we do, somebody tells them, you’re [00:24:25] shit, you’re a crap dentist. That’s what they believe. And their self-esteem and their the self-worth. [00:24:30] Everything. Just they can’t even do dentistry, you know, you just feel like you probably can’t even communicate [00:24:35] with those patients because they haven’t, you know, strength is something, you know, it’s like gym. You build it over time and [00:24:40] from the lessons that you’ve had and things like that. But if you know, you know yourself and you know what [00:24:45] the problem is for a lot of people, they don’t know that. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Well, tell me I’m interested [00:24:50] in this question. You’re saying, you know, don’t conform. Think outside of the box. Be yourself. All of these things. [00:24:55] How did you translate those sort of ideas into ortho [00:25:00] ortho training. How how were you looking at things differently to the next?

Annika Patel: Quite interestingly, [00:25:05] I bumped into another professor in London Bridge the other day and I said, Prof. Mcdonald, [00:25:10] let’s take a selfie. Number one. Number two, thank you so much for your advice. He said, what was that? Do something [00:25:15] different to the other orthodontists. Yes, that’s the advice he gave me. Do you [00:25:20] be different to the other orthodontists? So I’m heavy lingual. So I do a lot of lingual [00:25:25] orthodontics and that’s great because no one else can be.

Rhona Eskander: And it’s controversial in a way, because like some orthodontists [00:25:30] don’t even, like really believe in lingual, you know, I mean, it’s.

Annika Patel: Because can’t do won’t do. You know, it’s um, [00:25:35] what’s interesting is I had a lot of. You know, is a hierarchy in the hospital, isn’t there? [00:25:40] And if they can’t do it, you can’t do it. If they are in the NHS, you can’t leave the NHS. [00:25:45] The advice I was given, uh, you know, I had a few problems during my training. Um, [00:25:50] you know, I was, I was actually a very good student. I decided to stay single for three years, just really dedicate [00:25:55] my life to, you know, doing all of this work and stuff. Can I ask you something?

Rhona Eskander: Bit provocative question, [00:26:00] but I get a lot of messages from women, mainly medics, actually concerned about [00:26:05] family, concerned about having babies, concerned about this. And they say, I’ve dedicated so many [00:26:10] years to studying because I had to get through my speciality training. Do you regret that? Do you think making the decision [00:26:15] to be single is necessary, or do you think that it was, you know, a mistake, [00:26:20] as it were?

Annika Patel: We have the path that we have. Okay, I’ve gotten toward those. So what’s [00:26:25] the choice? I know myself, I know that I’m easily distracted. My choice is meet someone, [00:26:30] get married during speciality training, have my kids during training or not there. Your [00:26:35] two options, aren’t they? I know myself, I know that I would do it this way and I don’t regret doing it this way. [00:26:40] There was that regret when I turned 30 going, oh my God, I haven’t got anyone, haven’t got house, haven’t got [00:26:45] a car, haven’t, you know, all this stuff I had, I thought I would have when I was 18, I was doing so well when I was 18, hit [00:26:50] 30 and I might as well be 18. Do you know what I mean? It’s you’ve got your own mouth and everything. What do [00:26:55] you really have, you know, do you have the relationship and etc., etc. the number of specialist [00:27:00] orthodontists that are single or social, you can’t, you know, can’t find someone, you know, the women, [00:27:05] especially Asian women who, you know, they’re on what, second wave, on the divorce spectrum [00:27:10] like that way. Because, you know, in the in the culture, [00:27:15] you should have got married between 20 and 30 or whatever it was, you know? So the fact that. You [00:27:20] know, I met Raj at what, 31? We went to uni together. Fine. We knew each other before, but, you know, we got together [00:27:25] 31. You know, I’m 38 now. I’ve got a one year old. I’ve got a three year old. I’ve [00:27:30] done things a lot later. Not everyone can get pregnant. You know, I’m a one hit wonder. Fine. Like, not everyone [00:27:35] has that luck. That’s why they have to freeze their eggs, go through other things, blood tests, etc. and then you’ve [00:27:40] got the pressure of. Career verses you can you have it all? Can you have it all? The thing [00:27:45] is.

Rhona Eskander: You know, I really struggled as well during university because all my friends started dating. [00:27:50] So I had this narrative. First of all, I worked really hard at school, I partied, we had like cool, like [00:27:55] boys schools we hang out with, like Highgate UK’s. I’m sure you like, know all those boys schools. And I was [00:28:00] really like focussed. And I was like, no, no, no, I’m going to like get into dental school. Then I thought I’d go into dental school. Then I thought it [00:28:05] was going to be a Disney situation. Someone’s going to see me fall in love and then it’s going to be the end of it. And then actually, [00:28:10] I had to like be a uni more, right? Because all the girls I lived with, none of them were dentists, right? So they had longer [00:28:15] summer holidays, longer holidays in general. I couldn’t date as much and I [00:28:20] constantly went out because I made it, but I feel it was a lot harder [00:28:25] to sustain like a long term relationship. I did meet my long term partner when I was 23 and we stayed [00:28:30] together. Then what? Then? Harder than my friends. Do you see what I mean? They were dossing around a bit at university, [00:28:35] going out, getting wasted, meeting people, like doing all of those experiences. And the [00:28:40] thing is, is that that’s why a lot of lots of dentists paired off together. Dentists, day dentists, because they [00:28:45] were like the reality of like the difficulty of like, you know, dating someone that wasn’t a dentist, [00:28:50] as it were, you know, getting up, being in clinics, less summer holidays, you know, all those different things. [00:28:55] So I really understand why people did that. And I think that there is [00:29:00] a pressure because by the time you’ve graduated, and even if you’re going to speciality training, you’re like 27, 30. [00:29:05]

Annika Patel: And it becomes a gamble, doesn’t it? Do you really want to be an orthodontist? Who do you want to be? Do [00:29:10] you want to be at home with your kids? And you know, we know we’re going to go on to, you know, [00:29:15] the nature of my lack of mat leave. But, you know, what are you going to do? Who are you marrying? What? [00:29:20] You know, things like even nursery fees or expensive mortgages are expensive. [00:29:25] You need to work out so much in a relationship and in a couple in terms of your [00:29:30] finances, essentially. Can you afford everything? Then if you do have kids, will you be sending them to private school? Not, [00:29:35] you know, there’s so many different things that you need to factor in and then make that decision backwards and say, [00:29:40] did I make the right choice? What’s important?

Payman Langroudi: What about look, you tell me, both of you tell me. [00:29:45] These days there’s a lot more single career women if you want to say. Yeah, [00:29:50] and some of them by choice. No.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I think so. But, like, really, [00:29:55] I was just listening to a podcast now with Jay Qazi and Esther Perel, and Esther Perel was [00:30:00] talking about really interesting thing where, um, the world that we live [00:30:05] in now makes it so much more difficult because the stuff that we have to navigate through is so [00:30:10] different to our parents generation. And she said, like, for example, people want to find a soul mate on a [00:30:15] dating app, and that in itself is a contradiction because you’re trying to [00:30:20] make capitalism and spirituality meet. I’ve never thought about it like that, because a dating app is capitalism, [00:30:25] right? People are trying to like because they’ve created an app to make money. That’s the whole idea. And [00:30:30] then spirituality, the idea of finding your soul mate, do you see what I mean? So actually it’s a contradiction. It’s a [00:30:35] really interesting podcast. And then she talks about all these different things that you then the comparison [00:30:40] starts.

Payman Langroudi: What I’m saying is that today, today compared to but this is 20 years ago. This is what’s [00:30:45] the difference.

Rhona Eskander: But this is the whole point because, well, first of all, women have more choices. We have more choices. [00:30:50] And I think the other thing is, is that women have more of a voice [00:30:55] and they recognise their worth. But it’s.

Payman Langroudi: So. So there we go. We have you have more [00:31:00] choices. You’ve got, you’ve got a voice. You use that choice and that voice to be single. [00:31:05] So that’s the sort of decision to be single. Yeah, I’m saying there’s definitely a lot more women like that that I come across. [00:31:10] But also, is it that it’s harder to find a soul mate? [00:31:15] Do you know what this isn’t?

Annika Patel: This world isn’t really built for women in terms of being a career woman [00:31:20] and doing the rest of it. You know, you’ve got the 3:00 pickup. That’s not normal. If [00:31:25] you’ve got a 9 to 5 job, you’ve got, you know, I read the other day that rims are colder by five degrees [00:31:30] to the base of the metabolic rate of a 45 year old man. Not for a woman, you know, really, everything is gauged that men [00:31:35] are entitled. So I think women just basically, you know, it’s it they [00:31:40] struggle. They they’re trying to survive in a male dominated world, especially if they’re a career woman, you know, who [00:31:45] are you going to be partner or are you going to be partner is constant. So time flies, isn’t it? Time just [00:31:50] goes away with you and you’re such a dominating character by the end of it because you’re just, you know, [00:31:55] survival of the fittest for so long that actually when you try and find someone, will that guy put up with a [00:32:00] woman like that? Sometimes you know where you’re calling all the shots, or you’re so [00:32:05] dominating or opinionated or, you know, trying to shout the loudest. You know, [00:32:10] there’s all of that kind of conflict that you have with the male. Like, I’m yeah, I’m a career woman, but [00:32:15] I’m also that person. You know, I’m I’m horrible to my husband. I’m [00:32:20] not gonna lie like he’s you know, I feel terrible. I’m terrible to him. He’s like the nicest [00:32:25] person in the world, you know what I mean? And because I’m so stressed by this, this clinic, [00:32:30] this email, this, this lingual blah. And I’m so, like, focussed on work so much of the time because [00:32:35] obviously they’re, you know, high paying patients, etc.. But all I do is snap, snap, [00:32:40] snap and my one year old snap. Up to now, she doesn’t even talk. But she goes to nursery.

Payman Langroudi: Is it? Is it being a woman [00:32:45] that makes you that? I mean, it could be a super focussed man and have the same problem. I understand [00:32:50] childbirth, we’ve we’ve talked about this right. Having a kid. Yeah. Is is different for a man than a woman. [00:32:55] Yeah, totally.

Rhona Eskander: It changes your whole life.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. Yeah. And you can see that particularly when the second one [00:33:00] comes along. I find the first one kind of because fits into your life a bit. But once the second one comes along, [00:33:05] there is no you go.

Annika Patel: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, but but the question is this. Yeah, that surely [00:33:10] today is the best time to be a woman.

Rhona Eskander: I disagree because [00:33:15] I think that you need to be. I think you need to be in your masculine and your feminine at the same time. Like [00:33:20] I’ve never felt men, never felt more pressured to be a successful businesswoman. And now [00:33:25] then to be like the perfect wife and the perfect like and the immense pressure, [00:33:30] that taste.

Payman Langroudi: Of perfection, that’s the problem, right? And is that a female thing?

Annika Patel: No. You’ve got to be at peace [00:33:35] with yourself and be like, well, you know what? Some days I’m not a good wife or a good mum or a good orthodontist. [00:33:40] Do you know what? But I’m a human and you have to be at peace with yourself. And I, you know, when people are stressed [00:33:45] and they ring me up and they offload and, like, throw it in the bin, that’s literally my saying. Just throw it in the bin, start again, [00:33:50] focus and just refocus everything again. And tomorrow. You might be an exceptional [00:33:55] mum, an exceptional you know, I took my kid to the wrong birthday party on Saturday. I took it [00:34:00] down the hill, you know, with my birthday presents. No one chucked me out. Didn’t know any parents. Got a phone [00:34:05] call from up the hill. Wrong soft play, honey, I’m such a shit, mum. Why? Why would it be me? But actually, that’s [00:34:10] my personality. Because I know myself.

Rhona Eskander: Well, let’s talk about that in dentistry. Because you and I have talked at length [00:34:15] about this issue. Right. So first of all, what do you think was one of the most life [00:34:20] shaping experiences you had during your training? Um, [00:34:25] that affected your mental health but also helped you grow?

Annika Patel: So I thought I [00:34:30] was very good as a trainee orthodontist. Turned up, never called in sick, managed multiple [00:34:35] clinics. You know, when people other people called in sick, I thought I was really good, got my thesis out, published [00:34:40] it in the European Journal. You know, I was finally the model student finally, after all these years. [00:34:45] And then I went for my RCP. Now, what an RCP is, is a big, [00:34:50] long boardroom with all these consultants around it. And they basically there’s [00:34:55] two places, the deanery and the college. They’re two different things. So [00:35:00] the deanery gives you your training number and that’s how you get your 30 grand salary. Yeah. And these [00:35:05] training numbers are like gold dust. And that’s how you get your ortho post. Okay. So you’re not paying. You’re just [00:35:10] a salaried dentist essentially. Then you’ve got the college which all the consultants and the profs [00:35:15] etc. they have their own politics. They’ve got their own stuff going on. Fine. That’s not my business. [00:35:20] I turned up to this RCP going, I’m killing life. I’ve got like I’m teaching all the all the international [00:35:25] students, you know, separately, you know, going on holiday. Yeah. You failed. [00:35:30] You’re a trainee in difficulty. I’m like, what do you want? What are you talking about? I’m a bloody. And I saw [00:35:35] I literally saw Prof.

Annika Patel: Gobin looking at, you know, going through my folder going, why the hell is Arnie here? [00:35:40] What’s going on? Like what? So the three years that I decided to do ortho was the time that they decided [00:35:45] to go online and a bit of an experiment, the online kind of portal for they [00:35:50] have these things called dots and mini cex. And can you put a separator in. Yep. Tick. Can you put a [00:35:55] band on like. Yes, kind of. Anyway, you have to do a certain number to competencies [00:36:00] they call them. Yeah. Not the fact that you’re working in a peripheral unit, like, you know, seeing a hundred [00:36:05] people a day trying to kind of get all of the peripheral stuff going on. Because when you’re a trainee, when you’re an actor, [00:36:10] you’re put out in the sticks. You’re not based at guy’s. The main central hospitals are based [00:36:15] for the internationals because there is a business. Yeah, they’re paying 80 grand a year. So therefore they [00:36:20] get London, they get their, you know, their flats, everything in London. Then we’re [00:36:25] getting paid. So we’re pushed out to the Stokes. So it’s just how it works. And more [00:36:30] so nowadays because for the government to get the employment rate down they’re pushing more people into education. [00:36:35]

Annika Patel: So it’s all politics okay. So turn up to my RCP and they’re like [00:36:40] yeah you are not allowed to sit your morph number one which was this was January. [00:36:45] This was April. I was ready to sit my EML and we had this thing called a conjoint exam, which meant you got your masters in [00:36:50] your more than one exam. So I was like, I may got my life back. Great. Nope. They took [00:36:55] that away from me in one thing, and it’s because I didn’t do one dots and one Cex. That’s all [00:37:00] it was two pieces of paper. And my consultants were they were there sometimes [00:37:05] migraines, sometimes, you know, chasing them to sit in a room and watch you put something in the mouth, you know, it’s impossible. [00:37:10] Do you know what I mean? And the internet’s crap. So I was just like, there’s a lot of things, but [00:37:15] I could have gone back into that room after that decision and cried. So I thought [00:37:20] about it. They sent me out, came back in, I thought, okay, how am I going to react to this? And in life you must [00:37:25] always listen and think and speak always. Instead of being a girl [00:37:30] about things. That’s what I always say. Don’t be a girl about things. Just think. Don’t be.

Rhona Eskander: Reactive, be.

Annika Patel: Proactive, just think. [00:37:35] And I just said, I said, so do I get refund? But I was like, [00:37:40] I’ve had two professors sign me off to sit my mouth. They’ve signed me off because I’m competent. They’ve signed [00:37:45] all the papers. I want my refund for the exams. About three grand or something, you know, [00:37:50] and they were like, what? Like, is that what you’re going to say to us? I was like, well, yeah, because actually I’ve got [00:37:55] nothing to prove. I’ve, I’ve finished everything. I’ve literally popped publishing before everyone else [00:38:00] in the European Journal for my for my master’s. Get off my back. I’m sick of you guys [00:38:05] literally enough. Then I cried. Obviously I went back and I cried, went back to Popkova [00:38:10] and I said, what’s going on? Like the next day, they wouldn’t let me sit it in June because they were trying to make an example of [00:38:15] me. And so the next one would have been September. And then the week after that you give back your training [00:38:20] number. So they made a political issue out of an example. [00:38:25] And I knew that this was a game. I figured it out. I was like, this is not about me anymore. This [00:38:30] is a game, you know, stay.

Rhona Eskander: Surprised you found that out. And I think that, like, making an example of people [00:38:35] is such a detriment to mental health. And I think that the, our [00:38:40] governing bodies and those bodies that protect the public to make [00:38:45] an example is one of the most dangerous things that they can do. And I’ve seen dentists and doctors [00:38:50] become suicidal because, like the GMC or GDC put them through something [00:38:55] to make an example of them. And I just I actually don’t agree with it. I don’t know how you guys feel about [00:39:00] it, but like, I hear it time and time again and you see someone and sure, they’ve not behaved perfectly, [00:39:05] but there is zero room for the fact that you’re dealing with a human being. And I think [00:39:10] this notion that you’re guilty until proven innocent is quite dangerous. It should be the other way [00:39:15] around.

Payman Langroudi: The problem is, we’re in a profession. Yeah. The profession has certain number of [00:39:20] things that make it a profession that there are there are problems with it. Yeah. Like [00:39:25] these. Yeah. But also there’s massive barriers of entry, barriers to entry for [00:39:30] anyone else. It’s not like we’re opening a pizza shop. Tom, Dick or Harry can open a pizza shop across the road from [00:39:35] us. It’s there’s massive barriers to entry to being a dentist and even bigger [00:39:40] barriers to entry to being an orthodontist. So a profession, you know, you’ve been to the GDC, [00:39:45] it looks like a courtroom, but no.

Rhona Eskander: Other country has it right. As in like the like no [00:39:50] other country has it. But my point is, is this is making an example. And I [00:39:55] said it’s a political decision.

Payman Langroudi: It becomes that way because in a courtroom, sometimes people [00:40:00] are made examples of to define what the law is. It’s just the way it is. Sometimes [00:40:05] I get it, I get it picture.

Annika Patel: You have to. You can’t be like, this is about me, and.

Rhona Eskander: I’m [00:40:10] really mad at that.

Annika Patel: But yeah. And, you know, like.

Payman Langroudi: So how did it shape you that experience? Were [00:40:15] there benefits that you got from that experience. Like did it harden you. It didn’t.

Annika Patel: Well even more so flipping [00:40:20] break like the sink sink at sea. Um, it didn’t harden me. It made me [00:40:25] think, what the hell is this? I’m definitely not working for the NHS. Screw you. This [00:40:30] is an NHS hospital. I was told that I wasn’t allowed to fly private. I had to wait [00:40:35] six years to get experience for six years in the NHS before I could be a private orthodontist. Screw you. So [00:40:40] I basically did a masters looking at websites and the. This is interesting to me. [00:40:45] Obviously I did a masters on it. Um, looking at GDP to specialist provision of orthodontics in the UK [00:40:50] at that point ten years ago, and that was when six months first came out and it was Invisalign. [00:40:55]

Rhona Eskander: Wasn’t as big then, was it?

Annika Patel: It was just six months ago and it was limited treatment objectives just starting. And there was [00:41:00] all the hate on oh my god, I can’t believe GDPs are doing ortho at that point. Ten years ago it was a 50 over 50 [00:41:05] flip a coin. Whether a GDP or a specialist was doing the work right. [00:41:10] And that’s what got published straight away, because I went through hundreds of websites and looked [00:41:15] at sort of scoring and toolkits and trying to work out what’s going on and what I noticed, and this [00:41:20] is a personality thing, is that. Groups or people that are [00:41:25] good at putting themselves out there, i.e. you example, Rona versus a typical specialist [00:41:30] who’s got literally the most cardboard website. And then at the bottom I’m a specialist [00:41:35] orthodontist, don’t you know, look at all my you know, I’m going to get people through the door. That’s the marketing, [00:41:40] you know, disaster. Yeah, exactly. It’s like, what the hell is that? And I noticed that [00:41:45] straight away. I was just like the all singing, all dancing, bright, vivid people in the world [00:41:50] are the people that are going to get further. And these people that think that we work for them or I’ve got my own [00:41:55] worth, therefore I am God attitude. Hmm. Let’s see what happens, mate. Like [00:42:00] very mature.

Rhona Eskander: Of you to think that back then, because I think GDP is still do get a lot of hate. [00:42:05] And you know, I will ask you the question should GDP providing although. [00:42:10]

Annika Patel: Yes, they should be because guess what? I teach on three diplomas, I work for a lot of different academies, [00:42:15] BP, etc. I’ve been teaching dentists since the system failed me. [00:42:20] Yeah, and I teach dentists because.

Rhona Eskander: Not all dentists [00:42:25] gdp’s.

Annika Patel: Yeah. You know, you know, there’s loads of them loads of courses that we teach on and it’s hands [00:42:30] on and it’s theory and I’m the clinical person because I do so many clinics now the way I teach, [00:42:35] you can ask any of my students because it will be, you know, you’ll see someone somewhere, [00:42:40] um, it’s a certain way that they will understand [00:42:45] the limits of what’s going on. Now, as long as you believe there are good dentists, bad dentists, [00:42:50] good specialists, bad specialists, you can do anything you want. Okay, I’ve seen some of my GP’s [00:42:55] absolute doughnuts and I’m like coming out of it fuming, going, oh my God, I repeat that five [00:43:00] times. What don’t they get? But yet they’re happy. They’ve got, they’ve got the bravado to just stick on [00:43:05] brackets. You’re like. You’re not safe. What are you doing? And it’s for me to pull them [00:43:10] back and be like, no, this is a referral thing. And then I have to bring in complaints and GDC and litigation, [00:43:15] and I have to talk about all of that to make them understand. Or I have people that completely understand [00:43:20] what I’m saying.

Annika Patel: And to the to, to the, you know, the detail that I know another specialist doesn’t care because [00:43:25] the referrals I get from other specialists who don’t care about TMJ, who don’t care about adult ortho, who don’t care about, [00:43:30] you know, bruxism or like, you know, failed restorations on one side because of [00:43:35] an asymmetry or occlusion or anything, I can see what’s happening where I can see that the specialists are getting lazier [00:43:40] and they’re using their own mouth and they’re using. I know it’s bad for me to say that, but there are some that just [00:43:45] are happy within the bubble that they are. I am a specialist, therefore I am. [00:43:50] But then you’ve got the dentists that are multidisciplinary. They can do everything, they understand everything. So if you can convert [00:43:55] them and give them the different hats, you will be winning because every GDP in the country is doing [00:44:00] Invisalign. So therefore they need to be safe. You can’t take it away from them now. You can’t [00:44:05] bitch, you got to work with it.

Rhona Eskander: It’s the same. People like moaning about social media and whether dentists should be [00:44:10] on it. It’s like it’s here and it’s not going away. Tiktok, Facebook, Instagram. It’s here. So either [00:44:15] you know, you go with it or you leave it, you know, and like you can’t hate on the people that put themselves out there. I [00:44:20] do want to also ask Yanni because obviously one thing we talked about. So Raj is the dentist. When did you meet him? [00:44:25] When I was 18. Oh yeah, they they rekindled. But when did you get married?

Annika Patel: Uh, [00:44:30] when I was 32.

Rhona Eskander: And how did you feel as a woman being 32? And how did you feel about motherhood [00:44:35] at that point? When did you have your kids talk us through that?

Annika Patel: So I basically, [00:44:40] if I’m honest, didn’t actually want kids at that point at all.

Rhona Eskander: I decided that [00:44:45] rare.

Annika Patel: Well, within.

Rhona Eskander: Your family, within your community, within your culture, I mean.

Annika Patel: I’m a Patel. [00:44:50] There’s like, you know, another kid. Well, number 62, like, no one cares. You know what I mean? Like, you know, the amount of nieces [00:44:55] and nephews and it’s just the way it is. So I wasn’t I wanted my life back at that point. So [00:45:00] I don’t know what happened. But he wasn’t what happened. But he basically had this conversation [00:45:05] with me after we got married. It’s like, no, honey, don’t you remember you said you wanted three kids? I’m like, I’m pretty sure that’s your ex. That’s definitely [00:45:10] not me. I definitely didn’t want, you know. And then I actually had a miscarriage after four months after. [00:45:15] We got married and I was when I fell pregnant, I was [00:45:20] devastated because I was like, Now I’m pregnant. I know I’ve just got married, and I’ll just start one thing after another with [00:45:25] me. Yeah. And then I was okay about it. I kind of, you know, I was fine. And then [00:45:30] basically Lila came, you know, got pregnant with Lila a few months later again. So, like, actually, I do [00:45:35] want this kid. So it was kind of like, did it change your life? What? Having Lila having a mini me. Somebody [00:45:40] exactly like me to argue with me. My mirror. Yeah. It did change my life because I. [00:45:45] She was a Covid baby, so, um, uh, she’s a Covid baby. So what that means is [00:45:50] that three months. So I had, uh, obviously we’ve talked about I had with my second kid. [00:45:55]

Rhona Eskander: So that’s like what Amy had. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Hyperemesis gravidarum.

Annika Patel: Absolutely. With Lila, I had, [00:46:00] uh, what I thought was HG, but it was actually moving to the toilet. Chain yourself there and just. That’s [00:46:05] it. Your life’s over. For six months, I had that, um. And I was very sick at work. Now, [00:46:10] the main support network I had at work were my nurses, my nurses. Oh my God. Whether they’ve had [00:46:15] kids or not, they could see how sick I was, you know, with patients, because the nature of my job is I cannot [00:46:20] be sick. I’m a robot. I must turn up. Even if it’s powertrain, even [00:46:25] if it’s something the types of patients I treat. I can’t be a human. I can’t be a mum. [00:46:30] I can’t be giving birth even. Yeah. Um, you both know that. You know, I don’t have mat leave for [00:46:35] either of the kids either. So, you know, I’m constantly being pulled back into work. So that does affect you in [00:46:40] a lot of ways. That’s a question.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. So. Well, the question [00:46:45] was did it change your life? Yeah, it changed my.

Annika Patel: Life because I went from Covid to actually [00:46:50] what’s what’s the setup here. If a private specialist or a private dentist, private [00:46:55] dentist I guess is a bit easier because you can get someone in to cover bits like exams and bills [00:47:00] and stuff. But what’s the system? Is there someone that can locum for you while you be a [00:47:05] mum, or are you going to be judged for not being a mum because you are at work? What [00:47:10] happens, you know? So Leila was the kind of test situation the three rod I’ve [00:47:15] got a locum in um, not a very good locum. Couldn’t do any lingual. Got a lot of complaints. [00:47:20] Hadn’t seen the patients for three months during lockdown. I ended up being called [00:47:25] on the day I went into labour in the morning to say, actually, can you get back in? And I’m like, kind [00:47:30] of, uh, you know, 40 weeks pregnant, you know, got [00:47:35] went into I went into labour that that evening basically after that phone call. And [00:47:40] then I knew because I knew I had to get back to work because I’d had that phone call in the morning, and I knew [00:47:45] there were a lot that was shit had hit the fan.

Annika Patel: Seriously. You know, I basically [00:47:50] opted against the C-section because of the recovery. So it’s six weeks, isn’t it, for a recovery. And this is [00:47:55] all you know, I’m not an NCT person. I don’t read books. I just go with the flow. It’s just every pregnancy is different. [00:48:00] Everyone is different. Everyone copes differently. So at one point, Leila basically turned around [00:48:05] and were like, you’re going to need to go to theatre and we’re going to have to. To see sections like, you are not [00:48:10] doing that, I need to get back to work. Like literally I was like, do anything you can. But not that. [00:48:15] So she ended up being the forceps delivery and an episiotomy, which is basically C-section the other way around kind of thing, [00:48:20] like another cut. But I went with that. And then I did go back to work two weeks later. So [00:48:25] two weeks later, means couldn’t sit on the saddle chair because of my stitches. It meant that complete [00:48:30] circadian dysfunction, because you’re not sleeping. It means when you’re thinking [00:48:35] about your kids like, are you? How are you going to feed? It was the.

Payman Langroudi: Imperative that meant you had to go back to work because it was [00:48:40] your practice and it was falling apart because the locum wasn’t good enough.

Annika Patel: Yeah, my patients, because. [00:48:45]

Payman Langroudi: You know, I hear your story here. Yeah. And I don’t know if you remember stories of your grandparents [00:48:50] or whatever. Yeah, but back then, a woman would have a child and they [00:48:55] would tell her to go to bed for 40 days.

Rhona Eskander: Really? Yeah.

Annika Patel: It’s a cultural thing. That is, you’re not allowed out the house [00:49:00] for the first month.

Payman Langroudi: So they would stay in hospital for for ten days or something.

Rhona Eskander: I think it’s unnatural. [00:49:05] I think it’s unnatural. The way we go. My boss that owns her private practice in Westminster, she went back to [00:49:10] work after a month.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s a common story you hear, you know, in this room. I’ve heard this. I’ve [00:49:15] heard this story of commonly. Yeah, but you do have to question the, you know, what is the priority [00:49:20] in life, right? Because, you know, our work is that way inclined.

Annika Patel: They [00:49:25] own us, though. We don’t.

Rhona Eskander: Our patients own.

Annika Patel: Patients own. And it’s yeah, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: The best thing about not being a dentist. [00:49:30] By the way, what are you now? That’s what you feel best. Best thing about not being a dentist. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Payman was originally a practice [00:49:35] dentist. I don’t know if you knew that.

Annika Patel: I kind of got the gist.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, but.

Payman Langroudi: But the best [00:49:40] thing about not being a dentist, not having to turn up, it really is. But you know.

Rhona Eskander: What? The thing [00:49:45] is? I saw even Kyle Stanley, who’s an advocate for mental health, who’s basically cut down his clinical dentistry to [00:49:50] one day a week. Yeah, he wrote a thing. It got thousands of likes and it said we should [00:49:55] be a we should provide a service to our patients, not be servants to [00:50:00] our patients. And the thing is, I think a lot of people feel that we feel like servants. And again, I think it’s the way [00:50:05] that the institution is and the way that we’ve been built. And as I said, like, it’s just ridiculous. [00:50:10] And sometimes, for example, I had a patient, I did nothing [00:50:15] wrong like I did the most beautiful bonding case on her, her before and after was like mental. [00:50:20] And she basically and she was a bit strange in the chair. So I was like, I got a bad hunch. [00:50:25] So we followed her up for like two weeks and after she was like complaining that she didn’t like them, that she thought they were this and that. So [00:50:30] we said come back for an adjustment. It’s just bonding.

Rhona Eskander: She said, no, um, she [00:50:35] didn’t want to come back. She didn’t feel. And then I was like, do you know what? I’m going to call her bluff. Come in. [00:50:40] I’ll remove all the bonding and you can get a refund, because that’s what she wanted. And she refused to do [00:50:45] that. So we booked her in with my associate because then we’re like, okay, fine, go see the associate if you don’t want to see Rhona again. As soon [00:50:50] as she walked through the associates door, she was like, you’re not removing anything. Imagine if you hate something that [00:50:55] much, wouldn’t you be in that chair trying to get it adjusted? Refused to get. So he did like, minor, like polishing. [00:51:00] And then she was like, no, no, no, I still want it. So I called my indemnity and I was like, what do I do at this point? [00:51:05] You know, because I don’t really know, like what to do because I don’t think that she deserves friend. And obviously the immediate thing indemnity [00:51:10] say is guess what, refund. Refund. I’ve done nothing wrong. [00:51:15] Back then.

Payman Langroudi: It was.

Rhona Eskander: This was like a few months ago.

Annika Patel: Oh God.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And I was just like, do you know [00:51:20] what? I can’t be bothered with the hassle. I can’t also be bothered. And I just said I’ll refund because I didn’t want my [00:51:25] indemnity to go like inflate or whatever. But I’m like and I tried to explain this to my partner [00:51:30] and he was like, but I don’t understand. Like he couldn’t get his head around the fact that we just do this.

Annika Patel: Isn’t [00:51:35] it easier sometimes just to give some money back? Isn’t it just for your own sanity?

Rhona Eskander: It annoys me because [00:51:40] we’ve done the work. I’ve done it well, no.

Annika Patel: I mean, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Just part of the business, man. You’re just. [00:51:45]

Annika Patel: You know what? You know, when I talk to my students, I literally when they get upset about complaints and things, I say, [00:51:50] look, you’re making X amount of money in a year. Let’s talk about numbers, okay? Take 5% [00:51:55] of your growth. And that is that is that money is like a tax bill. It’s a separate [00:52:00] thing for a bit like.

Payman Langroudi: Worrying about when you’re on holiday. You’re not making money, you know. No, I never do now. [00:52:05] But people people really stress about that or the cost of this holiday is the cost of the holiday plus my lost earnings. [00:52:10] You know, it’s a similar thing. Take 5% of your earnings and that’s your holiday time you.

Annika Patel: Need to have like, [00:52:15] you know, I’m going on holiday on Sunday and I’m so grateful because every patient I’ve seen in last [00:52:20] week is like, do you know what in the time that you’ve been doing my braces, you haven’t once said, you’re going on holiday, honey. And I’m like. Yes. [00:52:25]

Payman Langroudi: And what’s the worst thing about being an orthodontist? [00:52:30] Because the good, the good parts of it seem obvious sort of thing. Yeah, but what is it? Just that the. [00:52:35] I mean, I imagine when I was a dentist, I did a bit of, uh, Invisalign, and I remember [00:52:40] people becoming pickier and pickier and pickier as they got near the end, but I think.

Annika Patel: Is [00:52:45] that it? Yeah. No, I, I mean, you need to be confident with your wire bending. You know, [00:52:50] I work with some specialists that can’t white bend. And I’m like, what the hell are you a specialist for then if you repositioning brackets [00:52:55] because that’s expensive. I think it’s knowing the red flags and the green flags, you know, and personalities. [00:53:00]

Payman Langroudi: That’s the worst thing.

Annika Patel: The worst thing? Yeah. Being. That’s the worst thing about ortho. Because everybody that’s coming for [00:53:05] ortho is either got a deadline, getting married, there’s always something. It’s something cosmetic [00:53:10] around it, you know, and then the costings like, you know, the missing teeth, the implant plan, the soft, you know, [00:53:15] soft tissue, hard tissue, all of the grafting plus your ortho plus your cosmetic, being able to [00:53:20] sell big treatment plans and being competent at saying ABC, this is what you need, [00:53:25] and having it all like informed consent at the beginning. Quick quotes, knowing what’s going on. I think [00:53:30] that’s hard. I think it’s hard for a lot of orthodontists to be able to talk money, because [00:53:35] you’re not taught that when we know we’re not talk the talk, we’re not taught the business of dentistry, are we? So I think [00:53:40] it’s being able to say it and say, you know what, I can’t change the shape or colour of your teeth. If you want [00:53:45] anything else, there’s something extra that you need to do. Bit winding, bit of composite, whatever it is, and having [00:53:50] open discussions with patients and not fearing them, they shouldn’t be a hard sell in ortho. You know, in private [00:53:55] it should be. These are your options if you want to take it or leave it. And they always come back to you anyway, you know. [00:54:00] So that’s taken me a long time, though.

Annika Patel: It’s taken me a while to get to that point, because I remember [00:54:05] at the beginning when I first started, it was like, ha ha, all your impressions are getting failed by incognito [00:54:10] because you know you’re not putting the wafer on properly or whatever it was before we had scanners and [00:54:15] I just bullshit. I’d just be like, look, I’m in a man’s world and in private practice just got out of their mouth. I was [00:54:20] told to go to the NHS, and I was like, sod off. And actually, everybody I work with are ten [00:54:25] years older than me, and they’re men and they’ve obviously been around. They know what they’re doing. I clearly don’t know what I’m doing, but [00:54:30] are those people going to support me? And, you know, women that empower each other, they’re the people around you. Men. [00:54:35] And you know, it’s different. You’re different species within the same practice. Sometimes if you’re [00:54:40] both ortho, um, so you don’t get that support sometimes. You know people I find [00:54:45] men, no offence, but they keep their cards really close to their chest. Like, even when they’re teaching, they [00:54:50] give you sort of the ingredients to a cake, but then don’t tell you what type of flower you’re like, yeah, well, [00:54:55] how am I going to know? How am I actually going to do you know what?

Rhona Eskander: It’s really interesting. I never thought about that, but I had one of my [00:55:00] students say, and so obviously I’ve got my doctor in the academy, and one of the things they love is like my nice shadowing [00:55:05] days. And then this girl goes to me, you’re so generous with your knowledge, like you put so much in [00:55:10] the model. So what does that even mean? You know, she was like, but you go on courses and people don’t tell you certain [00:55:15] elements because they’re worried you’re going to like, start to steal it. But I was like, but that’s the whole point. Like, I don’t [00:55:20] care about sharing my knowledge because I’m like, there’s plenty enough to go around, you know what I mean? So I found it really strange. [00:55:25] But I think you saying that, like, confirms that, yeah.

Annika Patel: It’s difficult and it’s [00:55:30] you’re not going to unless you ask someone for help. You’re never going to get it. People can’t in every way [00:55:35] mentally like literally work wise, unless you ask somebody the question we [00:55:40] know no, no question is a stupid question. You have to say it, but you have to say that like, ask me the questions [00:55:45] because it nothing is a stupid question. Just ask me even though you’re like stupid question [00:55:50] like, but.

Rhona Eskander: I actually disagree. I think there’s such a lack of camaraderie, like within the [00:55:55] industry as a whole, like men and women. Um, so for me, like, for [00:56:00] example, I’ve had more hate from like, like female dentists. [00:56:05] Do you know what I mean? Like people that don’t support, like, will say things and like, and even [00:56:10] the male ones as well. There is a lack of camaraderie within the profession. But what do they.

Annika Patel: Not like about you? Have you pinpointed [00:56:15] I don’t know, it’s the.

Rhona Eskander: But I mean, should I even care? Do you know what I mean? Because I have the people that I care [00:56:20] about are the general public. I don’t really care about the dentists as long as I have a team that works well and provides the [00:56:25] best care for my patients. Why should I think about like, getting the approval of other dentists?

Payman Langroudi: It does bother you though. [00:56:30]

Annika Patel: No it does, but I think you need to work on yourself. I feel like you need to work on your own, building [00:56:35] your strength because, you know, I mean, you’ve asked me in the past mental versus physical strength. Are they [00:56:40] correlated? Well, you’re physically very fit, you know, look at you. But is [00:56:45] that a correlation because mentally are you there. No.

Rhona Eskander: And that’s why I continuously. But the other thing I want [00:56:50] to ask you on, you know, as we come towards the end, is what sort of tools have you had in your toolkit [00:56:55] to build up the mental resilience that you have? So we know I know you’re box, but do you want to tell us as well [00:57:00] what you do to help your mental resilience?

Annika Patel: So the biggest problem I have is no sleep. Yeah. Because [00:57:05] I’ve got you know, last night I was mentoring 830 till ten. Then I had obviously I’ve got my baby [00:57:10] and then, you know, my work all day. And then I usually box on a Wednesday from half six to half [00:57:15] seven. So half six to half seven. Get back, bend toward half eight till ten. Then I’m up with my kid. [00:57:20] You know there’s no sleep. So it’s delta waves. So you don’t know if you know what they are. So [00:57:25] if you put in to YouTube Delta waves, they get you into your deep sleep and your non-rapid [00:57:30] eye movement faster. So if you’re only going to have 4 or 5 hours of sleep, it gets you there a lot faster. [00:57:35] So it helps you with basically your circadian dysfunction. You know, things like Parkinson’s [00:57:40] and, you know, all the other stuff that helps schizophrenia and all the stuff that happens from not having enough sleep. So [00:57:45] that’s really important because I can’t change that. That’s my life. I’m not going to have sleep. I’m working and I’ve [00:57:50] got a baby and I’ve got a three year old. That’s not going to change. Yeah. So you take what you have and then you say, well, how [00:57:55] can I change things? I do 5 a.m. club, as you know. Yeah. Um, so I don’t sleep basically [00:58:00] by doing 5 a.m. club I get all my house bits done in the morning, but I also walk to the train station, so [00:58:05] that’s for my serotonin. So it’s a 40 minute walk from my house to the train station to get to [00:58:10] work. And that sorts me out for the morning. Gets my steps in as well. Obviously I box [00:58:15] a box at somewhere called Regan. So Regan is a flight championships. Um, I [00:58:20] fight, I actually spar male spar raising um, for 3 or 4 times a week. [00:58:25] And at the.

Payman Langroudi: Justice.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. No. It’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: I know you are busy, but.

Annika Patel: You know, [00:58:30] two.

Rhona Eskander: Babies. Can we just talk.

Payman Langroudi: About that when we say you can’t have it all? What’s had to give your sleep?

Annika Patel: Yeah. [00:58:35] My sleep. I think my sleep. I might do that, though. Sometimes I snap a lot, you know, because when I get migraines [00:58:40] now, quite a lot. So I think where I need to go, I now need to go [00:58:45] to my boxing because I am an angry person. I when I’m punching, I feel [00:58:50] the day that shitty patient, that shitty communist, [00:58:55] that anything that’s stupid email like, you know, the the amount that we’re dealing with [00:59:00] because now everything is so online, you need to get it out. And yeah, I mean, when [00:59:05] I’m sparring with the boys sometimes, you know, when I first started, I was like, you know what, look how small I am. They’re really going [00:59:10] to punch me. And to be fair, I did get a few punches. I’m like, well, I got some punch, you know, that kind of thing. [00:59:15] But as time has gone on, I’ve realised actually some of these boys, they’ve got all the strength but no stamina. [00:59:20] Yeah. So they’ve got no cardio. I can do seven rounds at three minutes. They’ve got the strength and they’re trying [00:59:25] to prove something to me. But why do you need to prove something to me? It’s all about technique and it’s about coordination [00:59:30] and rhythm. And it’s these things that kind of keep you going and floating. And the other thing, you [00:59:35] know. I paint. I’m an oil on canvas type of girl. I write poems [00:59:40] when I’m feeling stressed or the gas has really affected me. Um, so I’ve been writing anything that really triggers [00:59:45] me. You know, when I’m scrolling, I don’t get it out by writing poems. And [00:59:50] a few people do follow my poems, and.

Rhona Eskander: I love that I love.

Annika Patel: Them. So yeah, I do a bit of [00:59:55] that. You know, there’s only so much I can do. You can’t just have all the hobbies in the world.

Payman Langroudi: When you’re in a [01:00:00] nutshell, what can you do with lingual that you can’t do with Invisalign? Why do people opt for lingual [01:00:05] instead of Invisalign?

Annika Patel: Well, apples and bananas. Uh, yeah. Um, so Invisalign is obviously removable. [01:00:10] A lot of patients that come to me don’t want to be sticking something in and out, in and out. I’ve also had [01:00:15] patients that have had aligners that are like, I’ve had fakes, I’ve had aligners. Now can I have something else? [01:00:20] The types of patients compliance. Yeah. So the types of patients I have a client facing, they definitely [01:00:25] don’t want attachments on the front. They definitely don’t want anything visible. They might be getting married so they can wear the lingual [01:00:30] when they get married. Yeah. You know they’re all kind of like that type or they’re [01:00:35] on actors, you know, things like that. So then you have to gauge it and be like, well, actually, [01:00:40] what’s the worst thing that can happen? Fine. You can have a bit of a list. I mean, I use incognito, which is completely customised. So, [01:00:45] you know, it’s pretty comfortable and pretty low profile. So it’s um, it’s great in that way, [01:00:50] but it doesn’t mean I don’t finish with some aligners. Sometimes it doesn’t mean sometimes I don’t whack on a bit of sexual labial [01:00:55] just to kind of get the arch form out or whatever it is, obviously with permission, because once you know, they go [01:01:00] lingual for a reason, um, not enough people know about it. And there is this whole because of the way [01:01:05] dentistry is. Oh, no, lingual. Lingual is crap. It doesn’t work. Or like like [01:01:10] everyone probably says, oh, Annie. Oh Annie does is slate bloody aligners. But it’s not that. It’s just not at all. [01:01:15] Yeah. That’s why like.

Rhona Eskander: Look, I would have loved to do a quick fire round with you as well. Like, we’ve, we’ve, um, [01:01:20] been talking on for so long, I feel like we need a part two, because I definitely wanted to talk to you, as well as about [01:01:25] my own braces and all that kind of thing, but, you know, that’s more of a cult. Yeah, like a like [01:01:30] a mouth breathing question. Yeah. I would have loved to ask you all those questions as well. Um, because [01:01:35] also, you know, um, there are a lot of dentists that I actually really respect that [01:01:40] have opened up something in me regarding these conversations about like the link between [01:01:45] like breathing and mental health and like these appliances. And I think it’s interesting [01:01:50] because as well, like, we’ve got to open our eyes, you know, there’s even now discussions about like hydroxyapatite [01:01:55] replacing fluoride, for example. And like we used to be like, no, it’s only fluoride [01:02:00] or nothing. And you’re a weirdo and a quack if you don’t like fluoride. But now I’m like, we need to challenge things, you [01:02:05] know? So I think it’s an interesting discussion, but something maybe for like a part two. Yeah. Um, so thank [01:02:10] you so much, Annika. It’s been amazing. And you really are such a talented, amazing [01:02:15] woman. Such an inspiration. And thank you for sharing your, like, story and your knowledge. And [01:02:20] yeah, and for those that are listening, please don’t forget to like and subscribe, because the video is the long form that everyone’s [01:02:25] been asking for, are going to be up on my YouTube channel as well as on the main channels and on Dental Leaders. So [01:02:30] thank you.

Annika Patel: Thank you. Thanks a lot, Annika.

Avijit Banerjee: One of the problems we have in our profession. People will see a patient. They’ll sort of do an [00:00:05] assessment of susceptibility, but many don’t write it down. It’s sort of done in here, done in [00:00:10] your heart sort of thing in your gut. You don’t document it and then [00:00:15] we don’t follow it up. And remember susceptibility changes with time. Mhm. So this [00:00:20] must be longitudinal. So one of the things we talked about in that paper was also [00:00:25] phased care. Phased courses of treatment. You know get the prevention [00:00:30] involved then reassess. See if the oral health is improving. And [00:00:35] if it is then crack on with all your high end prosthodontics implants whatever you want to do. [00:00:40] But if it’s not just like in perio with the perio guidelines, Periodontology guidelines, [00:00:45] you loop back and try again. Because ultimately, if the mouth isn’t [00:00:50] essentially healthy and the patient’s not looking after their mouth, whatever fancy work [00:00:55] you do operatively, it’s going to fail.

[VOICE]: This [00:01:00] is Dental Leaders, the [00:01:05] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in [00:01:10] dentistry. Your hosts. [00:01:15] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: Once [00:01:20] in a while I have a world leader in front of me, and it’s one of the lucky [00:01:25] things about this job that sometimes I sit with some of my heroes and [00:01:30] today is no exception. Today we have Avi Banerjee, one of the world’s leaders on [00:01:35] minimally invasive dentistry. Professor Banerjee is professor of cardiology [00:01:40] and, uh. Operative. Operative dentistry at King’s. [00:01:45] He’s authored over 170 papers. He’s [00:01:50] the author of five books and 12 chapters of books on minimally invasive dentistry, [00:01:55] including what is now the new version of Picard’s manual that [00:02:00] all of us would be aware of in dental school, a book called A Clinical Guide to Advanced Minimum Intervention [00:02:05] Restorative Dentistry published by Elsevier, which will be coming out next month.

Avijit Banerjee: That’s [00:02:10] right.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely amazing. I’ve got I’ve got a copy sitting here and actually reminds me of Picard’s and the way it’s written, [00:02:15] but I’m sure the information is very different. Have you, um, Professor Banerjee [00:02:20] also is in private practice one day a week. Um, Prof. [00:02:25] Is this a massive pleasure to have you? And I want to get into all of these different areas, [00:02:30] minimally invasive dentistry teaching. But really the first question I want [00:02:35] to ask is, when did you decide that you want to be an academic? Was it how early on [00:02:40] did you decide that? Wow.

Avijit Banerjee: So I think for me it was at dental school. I was always [00:02:45] quite academic at school, at secondary school, and enjoyed doing projects and little bits [00:02:50] of research and things that students did in those days. Um, came to dental school and I was [00:02:55] inspired by several teachers that I had at the time was Guy’s Dental Hospital. Obviously, that [00:03:00] was taken over by Kings. And one gentleman in particular was Professor Tim [00:03:05] Watson, that I’m sure many of your audience will remember. And he got me into sort of material [00:03:10] science. And I actually did my first research in third year BDS [00:03:15] in the middle of doing my pharmacology and medicine exams. In those days, I used to sit [00:03:20] in his laboratory, and we did some work on coating glass ionomer cements [00:03:25] with resins. And this was back in 1992. [00:03:30] Wow. And I got my first papers as I graduated. And ironically, [00:03:35] uh, nearly 30 years later, what are companies producing [00:03:40] resin coatings for Jyx? So that was my first [00:03:45] delve into research into sort of real, sort of practical lab based research. Loved it. [00:03:50] And then from that moment on.

Payman Langroudi: Orphaned by the.

Avijit Banerjee: Bug. Totally. And and because I was [00:03:55] encouraged by such good people and such important people in my life professionally, they [00:04:00] gave that encouragement and that enablement to fulfil that, that sort of [00:04:05] passion and sort of got my, uh, a grant from the Medical Research [00:04:10] Council, which was, again, quite an achievement in those days, and that did a [00:04:15] masters in a PhD together in three years. Wow. So whilst I was doing [00:04:20] clinical practice, so it was it all sort of dovetailed really nicely together.

Payman Langroudi: And would you say [00:04:25] as far as research goes, what drove you then is the same as what drives you now [00:04:30] is it’s curiosity.

Avijit Banerjee: Yeah, I think so. It’s curiosity. It’s it’s sort of [00:04:35] pushing boundaries. And it also ties into education, which is another big sort of aspect [00:04:40] of my professional life, because not only do you want to, uh, investigate [00:04:45] new discoveries and new concepts and new ideas, but you then want to [00:04:50] apply them. So there’s the clinical application is one thing, but then it’s also impart that [00:04:55] knowledge. And and you mentioned the textbook. Uh, a lot of my research stuff [00:05:00] is in there because it’s relevant, because you take what you find in the laboratory [00:05:05] and you’ll then make that real for real life patients and for clinicians. [00:05:10] And I think that’s the critical thing. It’s all well and good doing, uh, new science, [00:05:15] discovery science. And I love that and I respect that hugely. But if that [00:05:20] stops and it doesn’t move on and translate to patient care, then [00:05:25] you sort of wonder what’s the point? And as I’ve got older in life, that’s something that’s really [00:05:30] evolved from that discovery science, which is really exciting. It’s [00:05:35] now how do we get that into a clinicians hands if it’s a product or [00:05:40] if it’s a philosophy, how do we embed it in care and things like this. So [00:05:45] now I’m doing more sort of clinical trial delivery as part of my research. So that’s [00:05:50] a really exciting and really different way of doing research. Uh, just as complex [00:05:55] but hugely satisfying because as I said, you’re ultimately helping our [00:06:00] colleagues all around the world pick up these new answers and ideas and then obviously for [00:06:05] patient benefit.

Payman Langroudi: So I’m quite interested in the time between a [00:06:10] breakthrough and it being. Care. Yeah. And [00:06:15] I guess it depends on who makes the breakthrough.

Avijit Banerjee: It does. It’s a really [00:06:20] pertinent question. And with what’s happened with the pandemic, you know, in the last four, four [00:06:25] years or so, such a spot on question and people have looked at this and I can give you the figure [00:06:30] 17 years.

Payman Langroudi: 17 years.

Avijit Banerjee: One seven.

Payman Langroudi: That’s okay. You, [00:06:35] professor at King’s makes a breakthrough. Is that 17 or some some general [00:06:40] practitioner in outside Caracas?

Avijit Banerjee: Yeah. Well exactly. They’re even longer. Absolutely. [00:06:45] That situation is really long. So the argument is if you’re in a in a research environment [00:06:50] with everything, if you like, set up for it. Yeah, there is data to show it can take [00:06:55] nearly that long because of not only do you obviously have to validate all your work, [00:07:00] if it is something that’s going to clinical practice, it will have to go through trial data and [00:07:05] regulatory analysis and everything else, and then a whole bunch of legal [00:07:10] frameworks before anything can get into a patient’s mouth or into a patient’s body. All right. [00:07:15] Um, Covid, things changed a bit. And as I’m sure we’re all aware, [00:07:20] listening to the news, you you had the vaccine being developed so quickly and [00:07:25] trials being carried out. And obviously there was a huge debate as to the validity [00:07:30] of some of this work, but ultimately it was done for the right reasons and was done properly. [00:07:35] Um, and it shows that, you know, where there’s a will, there’s a way. [00:07:40] And sometimes I think now a lot of the, uh, research [00:07:45] bodies are now looking at trying to streamline that time frame because it is [00:07:50] a crazy length of time. Yeah, if you think about it. And in that 17 years, when [00:07:55] you’ve had an idea and you’ve developed it, by the time it comes to fruition, it’s gone because something [00:08:00] else has come along. Yeah. And that’s often the case, especially in dentistry. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But I had I [00:08:05] had named Nan Wilson here and um, he was, he was saying that, you know, [00:08:10] when he was working in, in Eisai, he was seeing things develop more quickly [00:08:15] than when he was working in Manchester University. And, and so [00:08:20] that’s interesting that if you want to make a big change, there’s a quick you make that [00:08:25] change point there.

Avijit Banerjee: Yeah. Nan Wilson, Prof Wilson, professor sir. Now Nelson [00:08:30] is a dear friend and colleague and mentor of mine. Yeah. Remember when he did that research, [00:08:35] 60s, 70s and 80s. Now, in those days, you [00:08:40] and remember he was basically pioneering the first type of composite [00:08:45] material. Right. So it’s that level. And I think as we [00:08:50] get more and more contemporary, trying to create a brand new [00:08:55] material with brand new, everything has become that much harder because the scientific advancement has happened. [00:09:00] Yeah, right. That doesn’t mean it can’t be done. Of course, I’m not saying that. But when [00:09:05] you look back, the amount of regulation back in the 70s was massively less. [00:09:10] Yeah, okay. You didn’t have all the processes and the bureaucracy that [00:09:15] you have now. Now that will have a contributory part to [00:09:20] speeding up that, that, that 17 year sort of time frame. No, no debate, no debate. [00:09:25] I’m sure if Nan was sitting here and you asked him, could he do the same things then [00:09:30] that he do them now in the laboratory and everything else? Probably the answer would be no, just [00:09:35] for health and safety and all sorts of other regulations. But, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, I think where there’s [00:09:40] a will to expand a market as an, in a, in a company. So [00:09:45] for instance, if Prof. Banerjee was sitting in three M yeah. Would your ideas [00:09:50] spread faster? Amongst amongst dentists. I mean, obviously not [00:09:55] amongst academics.

Avijit Banerjee: Yeah. And again absolutely. I think this is [00:10:00] the other, the other sort of dilemma being a clinical academic. And [00:10:05] we have this when we get, uh, industry partners, uh, offering us grants [00:10:10] to, to develop products or create products sort of in conjunction with them. And [00:10:15] we’re sitting as clinical academics and I’ll have PhD students or postdoc students and what have you. [00:10:20] And I’ve got to make sure that the academic rigour, the scientific [00:10:25] rigour, the research rigour is there in everything they do because partly [00:10:30] I’m training them, partly educating them and also just because of the role [00:10:35] we have. It’s sort of our duty to make sure that bit is right now in an industry [00:10:40] lab. Don’t misunderstand me. Of course, the rigour is there. I’m not saying that for a second. [00:10:45] However, they are, they are doing a slightly different job. Their aim is to [00:10:50] produce this product and commercialise. Exactly. Now clinical academia [00:10:55] has got better at that. No debate. So over the last 1015 years, commercialisation [00:11:00] of projects that have started out as pure clinical academic projects has [00:11:05] happened. And it’s happening more and more and more. And I’ve worked with something like King’s has a [00:11:10] huge commercialisation unit and as do most big research universities, they [00:11:15] have to honestly, it’s how they get the how they get the funding and how they can get [00:11:20] money into the system.

Payman Langroudi: So. So has there been times where you’ve done a research project and [00:11:25] then taken it to the what do you call that, the incubator at King’s?

Avijit Banerjee: Essentially, yeah. And [00:11:30] a lot of my colleagues have I’ve been in a position more with my research where if [00:11:35] it’s industry linked industry, we’ve already spoken and talked about it. So we work together to [00:11:40] develop the project. I sort of do the science and the research. Usually, [00:11:45] as I said, the doctorate, postdoc students, they will come in with that sort of [00:11:50] arm. So you do a sort of 50/50 split and that works really well because that’s their expertise. [00:11:55] And the trick nowadays in life is to make sure we use people’s expertise [00:12:00] appropriately. We can’t be, you know, Jack of all trades, master of none. I think it’s much better to [00:12:05] be a master of what you do, but then communicate and work with and liaise with other [00:12:10] masters in what they do and be open to that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s such a funny thing. It’s because we get asked [00:12:15] all the time by dentists, as you would expect for studies. Yeah, in our products. [00:12:20] Yeah, yeah. And one thing I mean, maybe it’s a personal bias of mine. I’ve never, [00:12:25] ever wanted to do a study for marketing reasons. Yeah.

Avijit Banerjee: And again, I. [00:12:30]

Payman Langroudi: Want to do studies to find out the answer to particular questions for myself. But [00:12:35] then the weird thing about those studies is that I don’t want to publicise those studies. And, I mean, it [00:12:40] goes kind of against the open information that goes on in academia. Yeah, [00:12:45] but if I find something out, I’d rather keep that to myself, you know, from a [00:12:50] commercial perspective.

Avijit Banerjee: Yeah. Commercially, of course people do. Therefore people sign NDAs. [00:12:55] People know.

Payman Langroudi: But what I’m saying, what I’m saying is a lot of a lot of research has done for marketing purposes. [00:13:00]

Avijit Banerjee: Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Sure, sure, sure. I’d say the majority of of product based research is [00:13:05] done for marketing. Of course. Absolutely. And so when a dentist asks me what studies do you have on this published? [00:13:10] And I say none, he sees that as it’s not being researched. Yeah. But [00:13:15] actually, yeah, we’ve done three studies that we’ve never put out because [00:13:20] I don’t want my competitors to have that information. No. And it’s interesting.

Avijit Banerjee: But this is the that’s the [00:13:25] commercial aspect to it, isn’t it. You see. So for me, scientifically, absolutely, we [00:13:30] should be open. And if we’ve done research even now to the point that we publish [00:13:35] methodology before we’ve actually done it. So, [00:13:40] you know, which is an intriguing one. So you work up a study and you actually get [00:13:45] that published, the argument being that if you don’t get funded with the grant to do it, somebody [00:13:50] else could, because it’s meant to be an open, you know, world where we actually allow [00:13:55] people, you don’t just keep all your information to yourself. And that’s correct, because that’s how advances are [00:14:00] made. Or somebody might be able to tweak that methodology or something like that. And it’s interesting because I [00:14:05] hear it all the time. Obviously, I lecture very widely and talk about materials and products and this and that, [00:14:10] and you have to evidence base it, this phrase, lovely phrase, evidence base it, [00:14:15] which usually means what studies are there. And if you think about materials especially, there [00:14:20] will be studies. 99% of them are done in laboratory in [00:14:25] totally artificial conditions. And again, I am not criticising the research.

Avijit Banerjee: I’m not criticising [00:14:30] the researchers. So don’t don’t misunderstand me, but that to lift that information [00:14:35] and translate it into somebody’s mouth and say that the data you found in a test tube is [00:14:40] going to be the same as in somebody’s mouth, frankly, is ridiculous. So then you have to do clinical trials [00:14:45] if you want data and studies. And as you well know, they’re frighteningly expensive [00:14:50] to do properly. So most companies can’t. It’s just impossible. [00:14:55] I mean, you’re talking six seven figure numbers to do proper clinical trials. [00:15:00] So you can only do sort of feasibility trials, a little bit of audit, [00:15:05] a bit of like you say, commercial research, give your product to ten practices, get [00:15:10] feedback on how it feels, what the patients think that has value. And that [00:15:15] has commercial value, as you rightly say. Yeah. Does it have scientific value? Probably [00:15:20] not really, quite clearly. But they’re two different things. And it’s really important [00:15:25] that people appreciate that. And and I think we live in a world where people just say studies. Yeah. Yeah. And just [00:15:30] exactly. And there has to be there really has to be.

Payman Langroudi: And so, [00:15:35] look, a massive part of your life must be fundraising for studies. Yeah. Where do you go [00:15:40] for that.

Avijit Banerjee: So again, I’m I’m fortunate I’ve got good relationships [00:15:45] with industry. So I will often talk to industry. And I’m very open and transparent [00:15:50] and obviously with NDAs and everything else so we can get ideas. And sometimes [00:15:55] I’m lucky enough they may fund a PhD for three years, they may fund a project [00:16:00] grant for a couple of years, and so on and so forth. The other area we go to often in [00:16:05] clinical academia is government money. So there are there are there are pots of money. [00:16:10] So there is the National Institute of Health and Science Research, NIH Health [00:16:15] and Clinical Research, sorry, near which is the research division of the National Health Service, [00:16:20] if you like. Okay. That has a significant budget for doing [00:16:25] health care research, of which obviously oral and dental health is part of it. We don’t [00:16:30] tend to apply very much. And our grants compared to general [00:16:35] medical research, you can imagine a relatively small. But they’re there. And again, [00:16:40] you know, my PhD was funded with the Medical Research Council fellowship. Um, and [00:16:45] there’s lots of money there, but they’re incredibly competitive. You have to write these grants [00:16:50] proposals and they get scrutinised usually 2 or 3 times. [00:16:55] If you’re lucky, you go through the process and at the end they can still say no. So for every [00:17:00] probably a good hit rate, every ten grants you write, you might get 1 or 2. Wow. And [00:17:05] that’s actually part of the job plan. That’s part of my work at King’s is getting [00:17:10] ideas, putting them together. You then have to cost them. So you have to do accountancy [00:17:15] degree, sort of cost it all out.

Avijit Banerjee: It’s all very complex, but [00:17:20] you learn a lot. You talk to lots of people and and you realise what’s genuinely feasible [00:17:25] and what’s not. And I think that goes back to what I said earlier when I’m a bit when I was younger and greener, [00:17:30] you think, oh, this is exciting, I want to I want to chase this, you know, and then as you get older and a bit [00:17:35] greyer and you start to realise, you know, you’ve got to channel your efforts where you’ve got [00:17:40] the best opportunities and where the clinical need is. That’s the other big point. You [00:17:45] know, discovery science is so, so, so, so important. Of course it is. But [00:17:50] we live in a world where, as I said earlier, we need to implement. So there are areas [00:17:55] where you can look at the burning clinical questions. And they’re not always that. There’s [00:18:00] not always rocket science. People often think especially people in my position you think, oh, we’ve got to do something [00:18:05] very, very complex. Doesn’t have to be, you know, there’s lots of research into behavioural psychology [00:18:10] and how we change behaviours in healthcare, especially in oral health care, preventable diseases. Absolutely. [00:18:15] The key thing is exactly, dental care is my area is probably [00:18:20] the most preventable disease, yet it’s the most prevalent disease on the planet. Unbelievable. [00:18:25] You know, you know, 40 odd percent of the population of the whole planet [00:18:30] suffer from untreated dental caries today, which is a frightening statistic [00:18:35] when basically if you brush your teeth well, you check your diet and [00:18:40] you use some decent toothpaste and things like that, you can basically prevent it.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:18:45] I saw you in your paper that just came out in the BJ. There was a big piece on susceptibility. [00:18:50] Yeah.

Avijit Banerjee: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Talk me through that.

Avijit Banerjee: Right. So thank you. Thank you for bringing [00:18:55] that up. So we published a quite an important paper, I think in the British Dental Journal in March, [00:19:00] March the 8th, it came out and this was work that was done with the office of the Chief Dental Officer [00:19:05] of England and also National Health Service England. So NHS so it’s all, you know. [00:19:10] And it was looking at essentially making prevention pay [00:19:15] because one of the issues we’ve had in our profession, it’s basically a fee per item service. [00:19:20] The more you do, the more you operate the more you get paid. Yeah. And that’s been a system for many, [00:19:25] many, many years. And it has some advantages, but it has many disadvantages, as we all know, because [00:19:30] it encourages people to overtreat perhaps prevention. I think [00:19:35] everybody in our profession understands the importance of prevention, but implementing [00:19:40] it is the challenge. Yeah. And our systems don’t always allow that. So [00:19:45] we worked for a couple of years looking at a pathway to see how [00:19:50] with best clinical care, with best clinical practice, all of this is in the textbook you [00:19:55] mentioned, and how we can map out some payment system [00:20:00] within the current framework of Udas, which I know is not not the most favourite, [00:20:05] you know, abbreviation on the planet at the moment.

Avijit Banerjee: But it’s what we have and there are ways [00:20:10] we can start to claim appropriately for it. So that is also [00:20:15] part of that system, is the work has to be tailored to [00:20:20] the patients who most need it. You can’t just blanket cover everybody with this [00:20:25] and it wouldn’t be appropriate to do so. Yeah. And it’s easy for us to forget clinicians, [00:20:30] to forget that if you’re in practice and you’re seeing X number of patients, 90% [00:20:35] of them are fit, well, healthy looking after themselves. And we always forget [00:20:40] that because it’s human nature to always think of the worst case scenarios, the most difficult [00:20:45] patients. Yeah. But a lot of that care needs to be channelled [00:20:50] to that 5 or 10% that you’ll have in your practice. And that’s where it’s about risk [00:20:55] related or susceptibility related patients in terms of targeting this preventive [00:21:00] care, where we can do lots of clever things with technology and materials [00:21:05] and everything else, and behavioural science to start getting patients to realise they’re [00:21:10] in control of their oral health, and we’ve got to fit it into their lifestyles. [00:21:15]

Payman Langroudi: But how can we tell the susceptibility of someone to care? So I mean, again.

Avijit Banerjee: Complex [00:21:20] the the the risk susceptibility assessment for dental caries. I wrote a [00:21:25] chapter in a textbook on risk assessment that came out about four years ago, [00:21:30] and I did the cardiology chapter with a with a good colleague of mine. Which book is it? Um, it’s [00:21:35] it’s risk assessment in oral health. Um, it’s edited by Ian Chappell [00:21:40] and I. The chapter I wrote was with Svante Swetman, who’s a cardiologist [00:21:45] in Denmark. Really, really, really bright guy. Done [00:21:50] a lot of work on this, and we looked at all the ways that we could assess risk susceptibility. [00:21:55] And there’s nearly 150 questions you could ask a patient if you really wanted [00:22:00] to, to try to knuckle down into this. Obviously you wouldn’t do that. You tailor [00:22:05] the questions depending on the person sitting in the chair. But the point I’m making is it’s not a [00:22:10] pure science.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not like a saliva test. You can.

Avijit Banerjee: Do it. There are there are adjunctive [00:22:15] tests. Absolutely, that will help build the picture like saliva, [00:22:20] like any other investigation. Exactly. But one thing on its own. No, there isn’t anything. [00:22:25] You have to take all that data. You have to pull it together. And actually, the clinician and the team, the [00:22:30] oral health care team, need to work together with the patient. It’s not an absolute [00:22:35] you know, it’s not a black and white yes and no answer. And and it’s a really [00:22:40] interesting point because something I wrote, I’ve written papers on this and and in the textbook we [00:22:45] talk about risk assessments susceptibility assessment as the red amber green you know the traffic light system. [00:22:50] Yeah. Yeah. And that’s all well and good. Actually in clinical practice, I [00:22:55] just want clinicians and teams to look at red and green. I’m not too worried about amber because [00:23:00] you treat amber patients as red in real life, okay. However, [00:23:05] if you’re looking at patient motivation and behaviour change, if somebody is high risk [00:23:10] or low risk, how do you move them? It’s slightly arbitrary. You take all these factors, you pull [00:23:15] it together and you make a decision. We live in a world now where people are hyper [00:23:20] competitive. They want to see progress. They want to see change. Otherwise they get bored. [00:23:25] Right? So one of the things I’ve always said is, why don’t we have ten or [00:23:30] 20 or 100 levels of risk for the patient? But for us, [00:23:35] ultimately it’s high and low and then the clinical team can calibrate. And [00:23:40] you can start moving people up and down like a league table so.

Payman Langroudi: People feel like they’re [00:23:45] improving. Bingo.

Avijit Banerjee: Yeah. And then if you’re treating a family.

Payman Langroudi: Gamifying it.

Avijit Banerjee: Bingo, and [00:23:50] you’ve got a family you can get, you know, brothers and sisters competing against each other and [00:23:55] you can within a practice, you can calibrate a practice. You put, you know, in practice [00:24:00] meetings, you put some cases up, take some clinical pictures, and you quietly let everybody privately [00:24:05] decide what the risk is, see what the variation is, discuss it and you do a few [00:24:10] of these. And all of a sudden your, your, your practice is calibrated. And then you [00:24:15] can start seeing your patients. And the other big thing here is to remember susceptibility [00:24:20] assessment is longitudinal. One of the problems we have in our profession, people will see a patient. [00:24:25] They’ll sort of do an assessment of susceptibility. But many don’t write it [00:24:30] down. It’s sort of done in here and done in your heart sort of thing in your gut. Yeah. [00:24:35] You don’t document it and then we don’t follow it up. And remember susceptibility changes with [00:24:40] time. Mhm. So this must be longitudinal. So one of the things we talked [00:24:45] about in that BJ paper was also phased care phased courses of [00:24:50] treatment. You know get the prevention involved then reassess. See [00:24:55] if the oral health is improving. And if it is then crack on with all your high end prosthodontics [00:25:00] implants whatever you want to do. But if it’s not just like in perio [00:25:05] with the perio guidelines, Periodontology guidelines, you loop back and try again. [00:25:10] Yeah, because ultimately, if the mouth isn’t essentially healthy and the patient’s not looking after [00:25:15] their mouth, whatever fancy work you do operatively, it’s going to fail. [00:25:20] It’s got a finite lifespan. And in a in a slightly more toxic mouth, [00:25:25] it will fail quicker. So it’s so important to get that right because then [00:25:30] you can do all, as I said, all your high end stuff, no problem, because you know it will work. [00:25:35] And then you can you rub a stamp on it. You know, I’m happy with this. And if you use an because [00:25:40] the patient’s there, all hygiene’s good, they’re flossing, they’re tooth brushing, etc. you say look after it [00:25:45] and that’s what we need to. That’s what we need to.

Payman Langroudi: That’s nice. You know, I think the, the job [00:25:50] of an expert is to take all the big information and then bottle [00:25:55] it up. Yeah. And and you know, some of the craziest stuff equals MC squared is, is [00:26:00] a relatively simple thing. But it took a massive amount of understanding to [00:26:05] get to that. Absolutely, absolutely. In that translation of, of your [00:26:10] research into, you know, practical things, is that the kind of [00:26:15] thing we’re talking about is that, you know, very.

Avijit Banerjee: Much so I, you know, I my initial research [00:26:20] was on looking at the microbiology of caries and, and the [00:26:25] microscopy and fluorescence, and then looking at interfaces between adhesive [00:26:30] materials and all this sort of scientific stuff, which is still ongoing. And as I said before, [00:26:35] should carry it should be investigated. Absolutely. But as I’ve got greyer, [00:26:40] I look at how interested.

Payman Langroudi: In this bit. Yeah.

Avijit Banerjee: Because actually ultimately what [00:26:45] we’ve learned over the years is you have the clinician, you [00:26:50] have the patient, and you have the procedure, if you like, in the middle, whatever it is you’re [00:26:55] doing to the tooth, the patient. Right. Yeah. And what it’s been shown in study [00:27:00] after study, in trial after trial. And when people are looking at long, you know, longevity data and [00:27:05] things like this, what they find out the factors that most affect the quality of the work that’s done in [00:27:10] the mouth, it’s the clinician and their skill, and it’s the patient [00:27:15] using their toothbrush. Those are the biggest factors what type of material you use. [00:27:20] And all of that plays a small part. But it’s a small part. And as [00:27:25] you know, these materials change every few years. They change anyway. Yeah. Whereas [00:27:30] the clinician and their skills don’t change unless they keep up to date and what have you. And the patient [00:27:35] has to be motivated to keep looking after their mouth. And I suppose the patients, it’s so difficult [00:27:40] because, you know, with the advent of smartwatches and people doing their steps [00:27:45] and getting their heart rates and all this sort of stuff, people are aware of their general health more and [00:27:50] they they translate their general health to things that can really go wrong and [00:27:55] they suffer oral health. What’s going to happen. People think they get a bit of toothache. [00:28:00] I’ll go to the clinic, dentist will drill my tooth and I’ll be fixed. The mentality [00:28:05] has to change that. Actually, a patient is in full control of their oral health. We’re [00:28:10] there to help them.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t think that we’re guilty as a profession of not getting [00:28:15] the key message over to the public about frequency. Yeah. Of sugar. [00:28:20]

Avijit Banerjee: And it’s so interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Because it’s mad. It’s one very important point. And as a whole profession, [00:28:25] we haven’t managed to the brushing piece. People know even if they don’t do it, they [00:28:30] know they should. Yeah. But the frequency of sugar piece, we just haven’t been we haven’t gotten that.

Avijit Banerjee: You know, [00:28:35] again, you’re asking such pertinent questions because these are really hot [00:28:40] topics that we’re talking about in a whole bunch of the fora that I’m in at the moment. So [00:28:45] one of the big things now is, and I’m saying it, and several of my senior colleagues are saying [00:28:50] it, there’s an element where we don’t actually need much more research into things. We don’t need more data [00:28:55] to prove anything. We sort of know it works. The key problem is why aren’t people [00:29:00] out there doing it? And it’s very interesting. And this is where working with industry is so, [00:29:05] so key because, you know, you go to the big the big brands. I’m not going to mention names, the big brands [00:29:10] that make toothpaste and toothbrushes and things like this. Okay. They are got a multi-billion [00:29:15] dollar companies. They’re selling globally now. Think when you watch the TV. And [00:29:20] they do an oral health message to promote their toothbrush, toothpaste, [00:29:25] mouthwash, whatever it might be. How do they promote it? They [00:29:30] don’t show pictures with people with grotty mouths and big abscesses and things like [00:29:35] this. They show people being vibrant and enjoying life and the [00:29:40] quality of life thing. And I think one of the problems we’ve had as a profession when we talk to our [00:29:45] patients, that health care message has gone away. It’s become a disease [00:29:50] message. If you don’t brush your teeth, you’re going to get holes in your teeth. You’re going to get. Your [00:29:55] smile will change. It’ll, you know, you’ll have stained teeth. You’ll have bad breath. You’ll everything is negative. [00:30:00]

Avijit Banerjee: Yeah. All right. We never actually really spin the positives. And [00:30:05] so there’s a huge amount of talk in a lot of foreign in the areas I’m working in with [00:30:10] industry on how we can change that message because like you say, the brushing [00:30:15] and everything else, it’s like mantra, you know, I’m sure people are aware of it. Do they do it? No they [00:30:20] don’t. So are there clever ways? So there are manufacturers who are [00:30:25] making high tech toothbrushes, you know, with apps linked to your phone and you [00:30:30] know everything else. And when I first heard this, I thought, this is crazy, why would you do that? But [00:30:35] if it motivates people because there are a group of population who love that [00:30:40] tech and want to use it, just like the smartwatch type. Yeah. And [00:30:45] and I think there’s a huge market for this because I said oral [00:30:50] health we all know is linked to general health. You know, the phrase bringing the mouth back in the body so, [00:30:55] so vital. You know, periodontology have done really well in linking oral disease [00:31:00] to cardiovascular disease and all other aspects. There’s even small links with [00:31:05] caries and things like this, and obviously with diet and then obesity and diabetes [00:31:10] and so on, so forth. So it’s intimately linked. And, you know, [00:31:15] that has been a big change over the last 15, 20 years. There’s no debate, you [00:31:20] know, and we were growing up at dental school. It’s all about doing the mouth. Doing teeth. Yeah. Now it’s [00:31:25] not it’s very much about whole patient care and holistic patient care.

Avijit Banerjee: And I know [00:31:30] people get frustrated with that phrase. It’s always bandied around on social media and no one knows [00:31:35] what it means. But actually what it means is taking into account all the factors that [00:31:40] make a person. Not just how they’re holding the brush and what toothpaste [00:31:45] that’s part of it. But that’s one bit of the equation and you’ve got to build everything. So [00:31:50] it then changes. How it how we educate students. Because [00:31:55] when I was educated, you know, we did procedures our whole, [00:32:00] uh, you know, undergraduate education was based around doing practical procedures. [00:32:05] And we could in those days because regulation was different, patients [00:32:10] were different. Everything was different. Now things have changed. So a lot of the [00:32:15] the undergraduate curriculum, even in the textbook there, of course there’s operative things, [00:32:20] but there’s the behavioural psychology again and how you manage expectations and needs [00:32:25] and how you sort of get inside the patient’s head. And which buttons do you [00:32:30] press and how how do you enable them and facilitate them? And I think those are what. [00:32:35] We used to call soft skills. Yeah, I disagree, they’re not soft skills. They’re incredibly [00:32:40] hard skills because that’s the tough bit. We can learn how to do procedures. [00:32:45] You can go on courses. We’re all capable. You can learn how to do those things. All right. [00:32:50] Can we all tap into somebodies head and know which triggers [00:32:55] to to press, which buttons to flick to make them change behaviours. No we can’t. That’s difficult. [00:33:00] That’s really difficult.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re teaching that a lot more.

Avijit Banerjee: Absolutely. That’s a key [00:33:05] part. All all Dental schools are that’s become a much more key sort of thread. [00:33:10] Obviously we’re still trying to teach all the, you know, traditional operative techniques and [00:33:15] things like that, of course. But, you know.

Payman Langroudi: There is a sort of a thought out there that the [00:33:20] graduates that qualify now don’t have as much operative skill as maybe in our [00:33:25] day. And and it’s fundamentally true. So, so you’re saying that there isn’t the [00:33:30] need for that.

Avijit Banerjee: No no no no no no I think it’s different I think so when I look back to my [00:33:35] undergraduate training 30 odd years ago, okay, regulation was different. Patients [00:33:40] attitudes were different, professional attitudes were different. The whole outlook of dentistry [00:33:45] in those days was, as I said, fee per item. You learn procedures and you could basically [00:33:50] get through a Dental degree. You could count off 40 different procedures and you were trained how [00:33:55] to do them in a laboratory. You then went to a patient and then you had to do X numbers. [00:34:00] So it was all counted by numbers. And then you took a little test and that [00:34:05] validated everything. Okay. Now people have spent the last 1015 [00:34:10] years arguing, but counting numbers isn’t the way to go, because obviously some [00:34:15] people could become masterful in ten procedures, others it might take 100, [00:34:20] and so on, so forth. Point number one. Point number two, the world’s changed. The dynamic [00:34:25] of patients coming into hospitals and dental schools, changed that model of [00:34:30] having a dental school and people coming to it. In London especially. It’s [00:34:35] a very, uh, fluid environment trying to get patients to come back for appointments, [00:34:40] regular appointments, their needs are different. They the complaint [00:34:45] levels go through the roof. When I was a dental student, patients never complained. It was it was unheard of. [00:34:50] Unheard of. Now all the time.

Payman Langroudi: At.

Avijit Banerjee: The hospital, [00:34:55] at the hospital. And I’m not saying they probably have right to. I’m not saying, you know, the systems [00:35:00] are there and they and you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Saying the world’s changed.

Avijit Banerjee: The world has changed. And I would argue it doesn’t necessarily [00:35:05] make a dental undergraduate better or worse. They are different. And there’s no dispute [00:35:10] about that. They are different. They’re a different beast to an eye train. And are they.

Payman Langroudi: Cleverer than us as [00:35:15] well? Because it’s harder to get in.

Avijit Banerjee: Depends how you define cleverer. But but yeah, in the sense [00:35:20] that you mean in terms of grades they’ve got to get and the academic attainment in terms [00:35:25] of the, the numbers. And we talk about a stars or nines or whatever they’re measuring now at a level. [00:35:30] And then coming through the system, one might argue that and I [00:35:35] know certainly when when Covid hit, obviously, you know, dentistry was shut down, we couldn’t [00:35:40] do operative treatment. But many schools invested in [00:35:45] more in the sort of phantom head, what we used to call phantom head units and then virtual reality [00:35:50] simulators. And we pushed really hard the academic content. [00:35:55] Now I fully I know people are going to say, but that’s not what’s important [00:36:00] when you’re a clinician. To a degree, I would accept that. But actually it is quite [00:36:05] important. You need to have that knowledge base. Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: But you don’t know where. I mean, one [00:36:10] of these students could end up being the next. Absolutely.

Avijit Banerjee: And our job is also to inspire that. Exactly [00:36:15] right. Absolutely. And I think people sometimes forget they think that a university is there to, [00:36:20] to churn out. And it just it just dentists or therapists or hygienists or whoever. And I [00:36:25] disagree, I disagree. We’re there to try to teach best clinical practice. Now [00:36:30] I fully, fully, fully accept there are systems and processes which [00:36:35] then have to be taught to overlay that, which is the whole point of foundation training. [00:36:40] That was the whole purpose of it in the first place. You can learn so much at a dental school, [00:36:45] and the days of being able to learn all the processes, the admin and the actual [00:36:50] and have the confidence, because that’s the other big thing I think now with the with the gen-zs, [00:36:55] the millennials, you know, certainly the Gen Zs who are teaching, it’s not they’re [00:37:00] not capable. It’s not that they’re not intelligent. It’s not that at all. They are they’re more than capable and they’re more than [00:37:05] intelligent. But what they lack is confidence. And because [00:37:10] we protect them more in a university, in a hospital setting, because of the layers [00:37:15] of process which we have to do and rightly do. So again, I’m not saying it’s [00:37:20] I’m not blaming or saying it’s wrong, but the difficulty then means that when they come out, they’re [00:37:25] quite raw with confidence. So they will have been taught [00:37:30] things, but they don’t sort of believe they have and they don’t feel they’ve done [00:37:35] enough. And that is a dilemma. And it’s a dilemma that every school is facing. Bigger schools [00:37:40] face it more purely because just the numbers and the logistics. But it’s a problem and it’s happening across [00:37:45] the world in our day.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I remember the first time I cut a veneer, [00:37:50] I cut six veneers in in practice, I really didn’t have much idea [00:37:55] what I was doing. Yeah, I really didn’t. I think there was no internet, no to check. [00:38:00] Absolutely. So I remember I found a book when my boss had a book. [00:38:05] Yeah. And you showed me and I just did it. Yeah.

Avijit Banerjee: But then in.

Payman Langroudi: Those days you can’t. [00:38:10]

Avijit Banerjee: If you do that, if you do, and if you do that now and anything goes slightly wrong. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:38:15] that’s so, so what I’m saying is that that lack of confidence kind of makes sense. Yeah.

Avijit Banerjee: Totally. Totally. [00:38:20] And but I think I do think current undergrads, generally [00:38:25] speaking, get a bit of a bad rap because of it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. That’s true.

Avijit Banerjee: You [00:38:30] know, and you know, as I said, I’m not trying to, you know, plant my flag in one camp [00:38:35] or the other here. I’m, I’m genuinely I yes, I am sitting on the fence a bit, but you know, I [00:38:40] take both I see both sides. I work in practice. I see that I train students, [00:38:45] I see that and I and I train postgraduates and specialists and everything else. So you see everything. [00:38:50] Yeah. And I would say that about specialist training. Right. I have specialists, I have prosthodontic, [00:38:55] you know, trainees on my clinics at the hospital and they’re all brilliant. They’re all great. [00:39:00] But as I say, my mantra to them is to be the best specialist, you have to be the best generalist. [00:39:05] That’s my mantra to them. This idea of, well, I’m going to learn how to put implants in, [00:39:10] or I’m going to learn how to do a procedure really well. That’s all great, but actually the skill comes in picking [00:39:15] the cases.

Payman Langroudi: That’s not true everywhere though, is it. And the US they very much.

Avijit Banerjee: It’s [00:39:20] operative based absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: As and they encourage specialising very quickly.

Avijit Banerjee: They do they [00:39:25] do it’s different systems I think I’ve got very dear friends who are specialists in [00:39:30] all the different disciplines. Okay. And you look and again it’s when you get some grey [00:39:35] hairs and you realise what’s worked and what hasn’t worked, and you’ve seen all of this and you’ve [00:39:40] picked the right cases or not the right cases, and we were all like that. You know, when you’re younger, [00:39:45] I’m not saying gung ho, but you went for things, you know, I can do this, you know, and with [00:39:50] experience become you. You start to know your limitations. And I think that’s [00:39:55] what makes you a really good specialist, because you can give the right advice. And my [00:40:00] argument I’ve always said there is there is a push to, you know, specialise more [00:40:05] quickly. And I know we’ve got the current climate in NHS dentistry and more and more people are going [00:40:10] out into private practice quicker. Yeah. Problem with that is if you don’t [00:40:15] have that general experience as being a good general dentist or clinician, therapist, [00:40:20] hygienist, etc., if you if you’re just going to go and specialise straight away, [00:40:25] you don’t see all the different things, right? You don’t experience [00:40:30] them. And that’s going to affect the type of referrals you make and how you accept [00:40:35] them. Because remember, you might be specialist endodontist and you may be the best root canal filler [00:40:40] on the planet, but that’s not specialist endodontics. Specialist endodontics is keeping the pulp alive. [00:40:45] Right. So this is my point. You know, you and [00:40:50] you work with the primary care team. And that’s what a specialist should be doing. [00:40:55] Of course they’ll do their. They’ll do their specialist operative work. I’m not denying [00:41:00] that. But the real skill comes in knowing when to say yes and when to say no. That’s [00:41:05] in my belief. And I’ve watched over the years, you know, um, how does.

Payman Langroudi: It make you feel [00:41:10] when, when you talk to undergrads and they tell you, you know, I want to do a lime bleach blonde. [00:41:15] Does that does that bother you?

Avijit Banerjee: You know exactly how I feel about that. And that’s such a [00:41:20] loaded question. Um, but, um, yeah, it disappoints [00:41:25] me. It does disappoint me. And I know why. Because that’s what they see. They see on social media [00:41:30] and they, they see this is, dare I say it, as a straightforward way of making good [00:41:35] money and having a good life and everything else. And I get that I’m not dumb, I get that. But, [00:41:40] you know, you go into dental school hopefully wanting to look after [00:41:45] people. It’s the sort of Hippocratic Oath type thing. And I have obviously have no issue [00:41:50] with people wanting to specialise in different things, obviously. But my argument is go out [00:41:55] into the big wide world and actually experience the big wide world and work out what it [00:42:00] is that fires your rockets. What makes you passionate, what is it? Which aspect do you really want [00:42:05] to go into? All right. And you know, if you do that for three, four, five years [00:42:10] and maybe get some other qualification, you know, get some general practice qualifications because [00:42:15] that’s only going to put you in good stead. It cannot be negative. It can’t.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [00:42:20] not the advice I give youngsters. I know that’s the advice a lot of people give youngsters but that’s I for [00:42:25] me three years in, in the NHS is a de-skilling. Yeah, [00:42:30] yeah. You get exposed to a bunch of stuff but I don’t know. The advice I give [00:42:35] is pick something and run. Yeah I it’s not, it’s not necessarily it’s, it’s not [00:42:40] popular advice. No, no.

Avijit Banerjee: But but it’s interesting. You see the de-skilling bit. I’m not sure because [00:42:45] as we just said, you know, they’re coming out with pretty raw skills. True. Um, [00:42:50] and I think what we need is a better system that, you know, I’m not suggesting [00:42:55] NHS practice in its current shape or form is an ideal, you [00:43:00] know, learning ground, a place. I fully accept that. Of course, there are very good practice [00:43:05] NHS practices. Let’s not forget, I know we’re living in a world at the moment where all we’re hearing is doom and gloom and [00:43:10] understandably. But let’s not forget there are a significant number of practices that are working their [00:43:15] backsides off and doing good stuff and actually looking after young.

Payman Langroudi: The problem is, if you do [00:43:20] that, you can’t make a living. That’s that’s the the.

Avijit Banerjee: Issue and this is it. And [00:43:25] this is where the systems do have to change clearly. And, and whichever government [00:43:30] is in charge. I said I don’t want to get political about it now, but whichever government’s in [00:43:35] charge, they have to take the bull by the horns and not be frightened to, to to shake this up a bit. [00:43:40] And most governments are not that interested because it’s a tiny fraction of the NHS budget [00:43:45] is not important. 2% even. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, 1.7%. 2%. [00:43:50] And I’ve said this in front of Chief dental officers, you’ve always got to remember, [00:43:55] you know, if if the NHS budget, let’s say, is £200 billion a [00:44:00] year, give or take, okay. And roughly 2.53 billion [00:44:05] is, is oral health care right. How much is spent [00:44:10] on patient complaints every year dealing with patient complaints do you think in the NHS overall the [00:44:15] whole NHS, the whole whole NHS.

Payman Langroudi: 100 million. Not quite. [00:44:20]

Avijit Banerjee: Not not 50%, but it’s around 15 to 20%. So 15 to 20 billion, [00:44:25] right? How much is spent on patient wastage, i.e. medicines [00:44:30] that aren’t taken, crutches that are thrown into the skip, wheelchairs that [00:44:35] aren’t given back loads pretty much the same amount again. Wow. So you potentially got £30 [00:44:40] billion on legal cases and wastage out of 200,000,000,002.7 [00:44:45] billion is spent on oral health.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Avijit Banerjee: I rest my case [00:44:50] and I’ve quoted this in front of chief dental officers asked to be corrected and [00:44:55] I haven’t been well. And that doesn’t matter whether there’s a green [00:45:00] flag, a blue flag, a red flag or whatever colour flag over number ten Downing [00:45:05] Street doesn’t make any difference.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting. You know, um, I think it’s a testament to Thatcher that, [00:45:10] that when I talk to academics, a lot of what they say is about costs and [00:45:15] money and, and so forth. And it never was that way. So, so, so and we’ve had to [00:45:20] be that way. And because of this 15 billion or 20 billion that goes into wastage that you’re talking about. [00:45:25] But you know, the question of. Teaching [00:45:30] someone who’s basically a child when they when you get them right, [00:45:35] and then taking them through to whichever dentist they [00:45:40] want to become. Yeah, it’s a real responsibility. It’s a massive responsibility.

Avijit Banerjee: It’s [00:45:45] massive.

Payman Langroudi: One guy could want to become a, you know, two days a week [00:45:50] lifestyle. Yeah. Dentist who wants to do correct a very limited amount of things. And [00:45:55] the other guy could want to be the next. Absolutely.

Avijit Banerjee: And again, that’s what’s different. When [00:46:00] we were students basically we went into dentistry. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Right. But do you do you must [00:46:05] have seen them come through totally. And were there people that you saw this this guy’s [00:46:10] going to go far. And he really did.

Avijit Banerjee: And always, always you’ll see that. And that’s the whole privilege [00:46:15] of doing my job because, you know, over the crikey, [00:46:20] since 1997 I’ve been teaching. So what’s that 30, 35, 36 years, [00:46:25] something like that. And you look at that, sorry, 25, 26 years. Can’t [00:46:30] do maths. Yeah. Um, and you look at that and you think of that number of students [00:46:35] that, you know, and we have, we have nearly seven, 800 students a year. So you can you can multiply [00:46:40] this up. And of course, people stick, people stick out and you can [00:46:45] see and in my day and our day, we went into dental school, you came out as a dentist and you did [00:46:50] dentistry. Basically. There weren’t that many pathways. Yeah. Now, as you rightly say, [00:46:55] you’ve got social media pathways. Business people are running 100 practices. [00:47:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Avijit Banerjee: Very, very quickly. Yeah. Um, you’ve got the aligned bleach and bond type [00:47:05] style thing. You know, you’ve got everything in between. All right. I’ve had students [00:47:10] who are now running very successful, um, manufacturing companies and product [00:47:15] companies and things like this. Others have gone into research and are deans of dental schools. [00:47:20] All right. Others are scientific researchers for industry, [00:47:25] you know, and there’s, of course, others who’ve given it up and then gone and done something amazing, something [00:47:30] else amazing. You know, my point being is just such a range. And [00:47:35] I suppose that’s what’s made it harder to, if you like, stimulate [00:47:40] people because you’ve got so many different viewpoints, different angles. People are coming at. Yeah, [00:47:45] my day and when I first started teaching back in the late 90s, it was relatively [00:47:50] in that sense, it was relatively straightforward. It was now it’s it’s more of a challenge. And I [00:47:55] don’t mean that in a negative way necessarily, because it keeps us on our toes. The way we teach has to change. You [00:48:00] know, you know, the attention spans, the way people learn. It’s so, so, so, so different, [00:48:05] so different.

Payman Langroudi: As as an international lecturer, you’re in touch with people at the [00:48:10] top of the field. I don’t know, in the US and Japan, in Scandinavia, how do we rank when [00:48:15] it comes to research, teaching, general practice, high [00:48:20] rank high.

Avijit Banerjee: Let’s not underestimate this. We do rank up. This [00:48:25] country is very good at self-flagellation. We love whipping ourselves and telling us, telling all the time [00:48:30] we’re negative, we’re all rubbish. And we’re not. We’re not actually. There’s always room for improvement. [00:48:35] We can always be better. Obviously, I’m not disputing that, but it’s very easy to say, oh, we’re all rubbish, [00:48:40] you know. Kings is now in the top five, uh Dental schools in the world. [00:48:45] Okay. And that’s a qs’s ranking. So it’s a relatively respected ranking. Okay. And yes, people [00:48:50] can argue. What do these rankings mean? I know, but that’s what we’ve got to go on. Okay. A [00:48:55] lot of the British universities not just talking about dentistry now, but the British universities [00:49:00] are in the top ten in the, in the world. Yeah. All right. But there’s a reason for that. [00:49:05] Okay. Industry wants to pump in research money into the UK. And we have an incredible [00:49:10] research network. As I mentioned the niHr. And in oral and dental we have the research delivery [00:49:15] network which is a really important organisation. And I was [00:49:20] talking to about 8 or 9 industry partners just at the BDA showcase just in March, [00:49:25] and we were trying to work out what the blockages were, why international companies don’t want [00:49:30] to come and put money into the UK, because it’s not because of the quality of the research or the quality [00:49:35] of the researchers or the or the labs or things like that. It’s a bit of bureaucracy [00:49:40] in red tape and being brutally honest. I’m not a politician. Brexit and [00:49:45] things like that didn’t really help and it just makes life more and more complicated, not impossible, but more complicated. [00:49:50] And all these things are there. And so we’ve got more and more hurdles. And [00:49:55] of course, there are areas that have declined a little bit. You can argue I’m not disputing [00:50:00] that, but you’re talking to me about oral and dental health and research and those sorts of things. Education. [00:50:05] We are still right up there. Let’s not forget that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but when you talk to your peers, for instance, [00:50:10] what’s the difference in character of of a Scandinavian teacher in a school [00:50:15] in Sweden, as in what are they? Is it teaching different? Number one.

Avijit Banerjee: Interesting [00:50:20] question. I’ve been external examiner to in a lot of dental schools around the world really. And, [00:50:25] and, and it’s a really interesting point because you look at the courses, you look at the curriculum, you look at the people delivering [00:50:30] it and how they deliver it. I would argue, you know, a genuinely good [00:50:35] teacher. It’s good whatever country you’re in, because the innate skills are [00:50:40] the same. Because you’ve got to like the passion. You’ve got to like the fire in your students. [00:50:45] It’s not about how polished your PowerPoint slide is or which [00:50:50] font you use, or which colour scheme. All of that’s irrelevant. You need to be [00:50:55] able to light the fire. You need to flip that switch. And whether you’re [00:51:00] in Scandinavia, in the Far East, in the States, in South America where I’m coming.

Payman Langroudi: From, I understand that, of [00:51:05] course, but where I’m coming from is, look, this last bit of research you did was funded by [00:51:10] the government, was it? It was a bunch of it was about funding [00:51:15] of the NHS. Yeah. So so the fact that you come [00:51:20] from the UK pushes you into a particular way of thinking. Very true things. Yeah. [00:51:25]

Avijit Banerjee: Very true.

Payman Langroudi: Whereas if a guy sitting in Japan and there isn’t something like very.

Avijit Banerjee: True, the different system.

Payman Langroudi: They go in a [00:51:30] different direction.

Avijit Banerjee: Agreed, agreed.

Payman Langroudi: But you notice that when you when you do.

Avijit Banerjee: But but you got to remember, fundamental [00:51:35] undergraduate teaching doesn’t change because we’re not trying to teach for a system. And that’s [00:51:40] where there’s always that difficulty. We’re just saying that line when a student graduates and then goes into [00:51:45] NHS or whichever system. Yeah, our job actually isn’t to train. As [00:51:50] you’ve said earlier, we’re not there to train NHS dentists. We’re there to train dentists or dental therapists or dental [00:51:55] hygienists or dental nurses. They can then, in theory, need to learn the [00:52:00] system they’re going to work in. But the clinical work, I would argue, shouldn’t [00:52:05] really change. Now, of course, as you get more experience, you get better at doing things and then you might [00:52:10] go on specialist courses. That’s different. Yeah, that’s later. But I would argue every dental [00:52:15] school around the world, the ambition should be the same. Now, you know, I [00:52:20] know I’m seeing the world through rose tinted spectacles here. I know life isn’t that simple. And of course you’re going to have different [00:52:25] countries with different pressures, societal pressures, government pressures, you [00:52:30] name it, system pressures. And of course, you’ll find courses that will therefore [00:52:35] be tailored towards that. But I would still argue when you when you peel [00:52:40] that layer off because that’s all it is. It’s a layer.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, the heart.

Avijit Banerjee: Beneath [00:52:45] it is still doing the right thing for your patients. You know, whether it’s operative, [00:52:50] whether it’s behavioural science and behaviour change and all these sorts of [00:52:55] things. That’s actually the crux. And, you know, yes, of course [00:53:00] there’s different ways of delivering things.

Payman Langroudi: And as an example, I’m from Iran, so my [00:53:05] uncle’s a dentist in Iran. I went and spent one day in university. He taught [00:53:10] at the university there. And in that one day he said to me, look, you’re going to learn extractions today. [00:53:15] And I was in the third year of dental school that one day I think I took out 20 teeth and there was a [00:53:20] queue of people. Absolutely. And so if you become a dentist in Iran, [00:53:25] you’ll learn extractions pretty damn well. Yeah, yeah. That’s just a feature of Iran is each [00:53:30] country’s got annoyances. Of course. Absolutely.

Avijit Banerjee: And, you know, and I think, as I [00:53:35] said, in the good old days, the good old days, you know, when when we were a dental students, it [00:53:40] was not quite like that, but we had plenty of patients. We could do work. Yeah. It’s not [00:53:45] a dissimilar point. You know, there were patients who do amalgams on and composites on and jyx [00:53:50] and endo and everything else. Now the world has changed. My first [00:53:55] clinical patient I treated in year two, second [00:54:00] year BDS was a first upper molar endo first [00:54:05] page, first patient ever. Right. And I didn’t sleep the night before [00:54:10] I studied everything. I went over all my, you know, uh, sat down [00:54:15] and basically our tutors were there. And of course they helped and suggesting we were just left [00:54:20] alone. Of course not. But we did it. Essentially we did it. And you [00:54:25] had a sleepless night the next night because you had the stress was still there and, you know, in your body and, you know, it [00:54:30] was so funny. I tell this story because I remember doing it. I remember the patient, [00:54:35] lovely patient, a lovely lady, nearly something like 17 [00:54:40] years later. I was the professor on clinic, and the student comes [00:54:45] up to me and says, there’s a patient who wants to say hello. He came to my office. That was the patient came [00:54:50] out and it was that lady. She actually got out of the chair, gave me a hug because she remembered me, [00:54:55] and I actually did. She lived in Hong Kong or had family in Hong Kong and actually did my elective [00:55:00] in Hong Kong, and she helped. So that’s why there was a little bit of a relationship there. And the first [00:55:05] thing I said to her and went. Is that is that a root canal? Done? And she laughed [00:55:10] and went, absolutely. Look at the x rays are.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Avijit Banerjee: Isn’t it just. No. All right. Beginner’s [00:55:15] luck. I’m not denying it. Beginner’s luck. But my point I’m making is that that’s how we did things, and [00:55:20] now we wouldn’t be allowed to do that. We wouldn’t be allowed to put a student in that position. [00:55:25] Yeah, and that’s where things have changed. And you can people can argue [00:55:30] either way whether that’s right or wrong, good or bad. And there’s arguments for both sides. Of course there is. [00:55:35] But that’s where it’s changed.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get into me a bit.

Avijit Banerjee: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:55:40] mean, number one from when we studied to today. [00:55:45] What’s the main difference?

Avijit Banerjee: Right.

Payman Langroudi: First of all, we were taught to fully remove.

Avijit Banerjee: Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Right. [00:55:50]

Payman Langroudi: So is it.

Avijit Banerjee: Right now now, now now into my hot topic. Now, now now you’re not going to [00:55:55] struggle to shut me up now. So two miss first of all and this is this is really important. Really [00:56:00] really important because people use that term interchangeably. There’s minimum intervention. [00:56:05] Yep. And we used to people call it minimum intervention [00:56:10] dentistry or mid. I don’t like that because that’s also [00:56:15] the same as minimally invasive dentistry. Mid. So it causes confusion. So [00:56:20] what we’re calling it now is minimum intervention oral care. So [00:56:25] it just subtly different. And if you think of it, this is that holistic approach of [00:56:30] looking after your patient. Right? So it’s delivered by the team, not just [00:56:35] a dentist but by the whole oral health care team. It’s prevention based, it’s susceptibility [00:56:40] related. All the things we’ve discussed. Yeah. And it’s person focussed. So [00:56:45] it’s tailored to the individual. And you have four clinical domains. It’s [00:56:50] really obvious I know it sounds complex but it’s so obvious. You need to examine your patient [00:56:55] and identify what’s wrong with them. So do your detection, your diagnosis, your special investigations, [00:57:00] your susceptibility assessments, all of that sort of thing. From [00:57:05] that you develop a personalised care plan, not a treatment plan. All [00:57:10] terminology. It’s incorrect. Treatment plan is just a list of things that people do. [00:57:15]

Avijit Banerjee: A personalised care plan is linked to them and it’s what you do. And then [00:57:20] why. And people forget the why. Okay. And that’s really important. So [00:57:25] if you’ve chosen not to do something why. Really, [00:57:30] really, really important. And medicine has dropped treatment planning and all this sort of old [00:57:35] terminology. They call it care planning. Why aren’t we. So it’s a personalised care plan. [00:57:40] That’s going to involve prevention and control. So prevention of [00:57:45] lesions control of disease. That’s the second domain. That’s where your behavioural psychology comes [00:57:50] in. That’s where you’ve got to motivate your patient goal setting. Yeah. Capability opportunity [00:57:55] motivation. It’s the behavioural psychology model. That’s what’s being taught difficult [00:58:00] flicking the switches. Right. And your interventions there could [00:58:05] be non-operative. So diet control remineralization [00:58:10] fluoride. Exactly. You know and and brushing oral hygiene. Yeah. Or there could be [00:58:15] micro invasive which is sealants and infiltration [00:58:20] resin infiltration things like that okay. There. You can keep people nice and healthy and [00:58:25] keep them ticking over really well. Our third domain is minimally [00:58:30] invasive dentistry. So it’s the other me. So remember we’ve got minimum intervention [00:58:35] oral care as the umbrella. And the third domain is minimally invasive. [00:58:40] So now your patients are coming with holes in their teeth. So you got to do something.

Payman Langroudi: So and then is [00:58:45] that it. Or is there a fourth.

Avijit Banerjee: There’s a fourth. And so and I’ll come back to minimally invasive [00:58:50] because that was your original question. But the fourth and arguably the most important domain is [00:58:55] the recall reassessment, which we again call a check-up. Yeah, [00:59:00] which is a terrible throw away term. Negative connotations. What [00:59:05] it is, is actually a consultation. And there’s a brilliant term I learned from our American [00:59:10] colleagues. I was on a Kerry summit for paediatric dentistry in Rome [00:59:15] a couple of years ago, and there were a lot of American paediatric dentists, really bright people [00:59:20] around the table, and they came up with a fabulous term, which I’m using all the time. It’s in the book. It’s [00:59:25] active surveillance. We were taught the term monitoring. We monitor things. [00:59:30] Monitoring, if you think about it, is a passive action. Right? Yeah. That’s not what [00:59:35] we’re doing. Active surveillance. I joke about it in lectures is you imagine FBI agents, you know, [00:59:40] black suit and dark glasses and earpieces, and they’re coming in and they’re tapping your phone. They’re checking what you’re doing. [00:59:45] Well, that’s sort of what we should be doing. So our patients, are they actually brushing properly? Are [00:59:50] they listening to the advice? Are they taking the advice? Are they modifying their diet? What are they doing? Can we get in [00:59:55] there and do that? What? The pandemic was terrible on so many levels. One [01:00:00] of the things we did learn was how to use technology to stay in touch and all the online communication. [01:00:05] Yeah. Why can’t we do some of that now to keep in touch, [01:00:10] to do this active surveillance. Why does a patient have to get in a car or get in a bus and come to [01:00:15] come to your practice? We’re talking about sustainability environmental sustainability. This all fits. [01:00:20] Yeah. So that domain suddenly becomes so so so important. Yeah. So [01:00:25] you’ve got the identify domain prevention and control minimally invasive [01:00:30] operative. And then that recall that’s minimum intervention oral care okay.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:00:35] is there another is there non minimally invasive.

Avijit Banerjee: I would argue there [01:00:40] isn’t. And I’ll explain why. Minimally invasive is a term that’s been been around for 4050 [01:00:45] years. It’s not a new term probably even longer 60 years right. Not new. And if you think [01:00:50] about general surgery now forget about dentistry for a minute. Think about just general surgery. You [01:00:55] know, in the 20, 30, 40 years ago, if you had a heart operation, you’d be in hospital [01:01:00] for a month. You’d have a massive incision, you’d have big invasive surgery. Right. And [01:01:05] all these things, now everything is done. Keyhole. Yep. That’s minimally invasive, right? Yeah. Do [01:01:10] general surgeons, orthopaedic surgeons, brain surgeons, heart surgeons, any surgeon [01:01:15] talk about minimally invasive anymore? No. The term’s gone because take all correct. [01:01:20]

Payman Langroudi: As minimally invasive as possibly can be.

Avijit Banerjee: Because you’ve got to respect biology. You’ve got to respect tissues. It’s [01:01:25] as simple as that. It’s as simple as that in dentistry. You are right. You were saying earlier that [01:01:30] often, you know, years ago we were taught, you know, dental caries is gangrene. And we got to cut it away [01:01:35] and make the cavity clean and hard and everything else. And even if you expose a little bit, well, hell doesn’t [01:01:40] matter. We’ll put Dikul on there and everything will be all right. No, it’s not, it’s not all right. All the clinical evidence [01:01:45] shows it’s not all right. And our job is to preserve tooth structure and keep the pulp [01:01:50] alive and keep the tooth vital and working. All right. And I always ask [01:01:55] again, the best clinician, we’d said the best specialist was also the best generalist. The [01:02:00] best clinician always asks why before they do anything, [01:02:05] anything, including active surveillance. Why am I doing it? Yeah, always ask [01:02:10] why. I say to my students. I say to Post-grads. I say, let everybody ask why. So [01:02:15] if you’re excavating lots, why are you doing it? If you’re excavating a little amount, why [01:02:20] are you doing it? And it becomes obvious. So think about it. You’ve got deep caries [01:02:25] in a tooth.

Avijit Banerjee: I’m getting specific now, right? Yeah. Got deep caries, occlusal caries and a lower molar. [01:02:30] You’ve got the rad. You can see it’s getting close to the pole. You know, within the inner third [01:02:35] of dentine radiographically. Okay. Patients got a few symptoms, but it’s reversible. Pulpitis [01:02:40] reversible. So you don’t want to kill the pulp. Give the pulp a chance. It’s [01:02:45] the most powerful tissue that we have in terms of regeneration. So give it a chance. [01:02:50] So in that situation you would practice minimally invasive [01:02:55] selective caries removal. You would remove the infected [01:03:00] contaminated dentine, the soft wet necrotic tissue which you could take a spoon [01:03:05] excavator to really simply. Yeah. And you’d excavate carefully down to [01:03:10] the leathery tissue which is the affected dentine. It still is probably stained. [01:03:15] And to many of us it will look carious, but actually [01:03:20] it’s a leathery. It’s not so soft anymore. Um, and it’s at the base overlying the [01:03:25] pulp. We’re allowing the dentine pulp complex now to work [01:03:30] and do its job, do its magic. And it will, it will. You’re [01:03:35] a deep cavity. So by by excavating, you’ve got a really nice volume in that cavity. Now [01:03:40] you’ve got a space.

Avijit Banerjee: Yeah. It’s important around the periphery, around the edge, [01:03:45] around the enamel dentine junction that we clear that. And we keep the enamel and dentine as clean as [01:03:50] possible. So you try to get to sound enamel and dentine if you can. Now on a [01:03:55] proximal box or something like that, it becomes difficult because it can go subgingival. So you’ve got to balance. Yeah. But [01:04:00] in principle you try to keep the periphery clean. Yeah. So periphery is clean pulpal [01:04:05] floor less important. And this is in a deep lesion. You’ve got [01:04:10] a nice big volume. You put your plastic restoration in your GRC, your composite, your amalgam, [01:04:15] whatever you wish. And we all know in dense materials our [01:04:20] plastic materials. When I say plastic, I mean malleable. I don’t mean plastic is in plastic [01:04:25] as in, as in, you know, I mean malleable or malleable. Direct materials work best [01:04:30] in bulk. They need to be in bulk, not in thin section, but in a deep cavity. You’ve [01:04:35] got bulk. So your priority in a deep cavity is keep the pulp alive. Don’t [01:04:40] go near it. Let it do its job. Assuming your clinical judgement is that the pulp [01:04:45] is still vital right now, take another scenario.

Payman Langroudi: What’s on [01:04:50] that is is there anything new that we can put on top of it to make it?

Avijit Banerjee: There are materials [01:04:55] and I can I can I come back to that. It is important. But if you take [01:05:00] the, the, the now shallower lesion that’s not so deep, maybe halfway through [01:05:05] dentine or a third of the way through dentine. It’s cavitated because that’s a key indicator. It’s cavitated [01:05:10] clinically. And you’ve decided I’m going to drill this out and put a filling in there for, for the [01:05:15] reasons you’ve decided, which you’ll have written down in your care plan. Yeah, fine. Now, [01:05:20] if you do selective caries removal and you leave this affected [01:05:25] leathery dentine and you clear the periphery, your volume of your cavity is now going to be [01:05:30] tiny. Your material is now going to be weak because it’s in thin section. When the patient bites [01:05:35] on it, it’ll break. So there you can start to be a little [01:05:40] bit more invasive and you can remove a bit more tissue, because now you need the volume [01:05:45] because your restorative material becomes important. Right. Does that make sense? Yeah. So [01:05:50] deep. It’s the pulp. Shallow. It’s the material. But periphery [01:05:55] should always be clear. The rest, you’ve got to work it out. Which is why you need to understand your histology. [01:06:00] You need to know how to use your instruments and bears and hand instruments and everything [01:06:05] else, and get isolation into all the clinical bit. And then coming to your point, the restorative material. [01:06:10] You need to know your material science. Now, when we were growing up it was easy. You learnt amalgam. [01:06:15] We learnt a bit about composite, a little bit about glass ionomer and that was it, a bit about Dicul? Yeah. All [01:06:20] right. We had about 4 or 5 materials. We had to learn nothing else. Now the poor students have got a myriad of different [01:06:25] materials, and they’re all subtly different because the manufacturers are getting cleverer and cleverer and cleverer. [01:06:30]

Avijit Banerjee: And we’ve got therapeutic materials now. Um, like what? Like, [01:06:35] for example, we’re going to mention names, but something like bio dentine, a tricalcium silicate. [01:06:40] Um, a lot of the modern glass ionomer cements are also carrying different ions. Now that [01:06:45] can be transferred into the tooth. And what these materials are doing, not only are they sealing [01:06:50] around the periphery, because that’s the key point. We want that peripheral seal. But [01:06:55] they’re also, if you like, transmitting really good ions, ions [01:07:00] right into the tooth and helping the dentine pop complex, [01:07:05] either to remineralize or to be antibacterial or whatever they’re doing. And [01:07:10] these materials have been around for quite a long time. The manufacturers are so clever. They’re tweaking them, they’re adjusting [01:07:15] them, modifying them. And it does. I’ll be honest, it winds me up when I hear clinicians [01:07:20] complaining about materials nowadays. Nowadays, because there isn’t [01:07:25] any reputable company on the planet who is producing a poor quality material. It [01:07:30] doesn’t happen because they wouldn’t survive. Yeah, they’re producing decent materials. What’s happening? [01:07:35] Remember I said right at the beginning, it’s the operator, the patient. And [01:07:40] actually in the middle the materials a little bit less important because it’s the operator not necessarily handling the material [01:07:45] properly, not giving it the best chance, you know, not linking it to the right histology, [01:07:50] you know, all these things. That’s where often the problems lie. [01:07:55] Not always, but often. So I am much more reticent when I give [01:08:00] lectures and people put their hands up saying, oh, but I’ve tried this material and I get post-op sensitivity, [01:08:05] or I get this or I get that. I always take them aside later and go [01:08:10] through with them, specifically their protocols. What exactly are they doing? I [01:08:15] mean, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: A number of dentists who read the instructions on [01:08:20] materials.

Avijit Banerjee: Count the fingers of one hand.

Payman Langroudi: It’s tiny.

Avijit Banerjee: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And [01:08:25] it’s important. It’s very.

Payman Langroudi: Very difficult from our perspective on the manufacturing side.

Avijit Banerjee: Absolutely. And [01:08:30] what I try to explain to clinicians is that when you I’ve been privileged to go to research [01:08:35] labs for a lot of these companies. Right. Very privileged. And it is a privilege. And you go in and you [01:08:40] think, wow, these are these are scientists. Really high end scientists [01:08:45] are in big laboratories. They’ve got everything there. This isn’t Mickey Mouse. And, [01:08:50] you know, I remember I’m pretty sure Septuagint told me when they first brought bio dentine out in 2010. [01:08:55] Yeah, they’d spent nearly 12, €13 million [01:09:00] just developing that product. Yeah, that’s 15 years ago. [01:09:05] Yeah. And actually more because it took them five, probably ten years to develop the material. So it’s probably [01:09:10] 20 years ago, €13 million.

Payman Langroudi: Runway the runway to get a return on that.

Avijit Banerjee: Is [01:09:15] horrendous.

Payman Langroudi: It’s still not it’s still not a mass of material. No.

Avijit Banerjee: But it’s picking up now because [01:09:20] people are realising its value. And guess what? They’ve got clinical trial data and they’re starting to [01:09:25] show that it actually works. And I’m not here to to advertise one material. You [01:09:30] ask the question so I’m giving you an example. There’s also glass ionomers that, you know, in a similar vein. You [01:09:35] know, they can be really, really effective and all the other materials are effective, but [01:09:40] it goes down. It boils down to the clinician knowing about the science of the material. [01:09:45]

Payman Langroudi: It’s important.

Avijit Banerjee: It’s important. And you can’t get away from that.

Payman Langroudi: You know, for me, what stands out [01:09:50] is the dentists who do read the instructions are few and far between, as you said. Yeah, but guess what? [01:09:55]

Avijit Banerjee: The materials work in their hands.

Payman Langroudi: It’s well, it’s important because, look, we all know about etching [01:10:00] enamel and saliva not getting on there. Yeah, that seems very obvious to me. We’ve all learned that. But if [01:10:05] that was a new concept, you know, it’s critical thing. And [01:10:10] if you expect manufacturers to improve stuff, you’ve got to you’ve got to follow the instructions. And [01:10:15] it’s such a basic.

Avijit Banerjee: And it’s such a, you know.

Payman Langroudi: We weren’t taught properly in dental [01:10:20] school I wasn’t. Yeah. To thoroughly read the instructions on materials.

Avijit Banerjee: Oh no who [01:10:25] does and I agree. And plus they’re they’re in like something that looks like the Dead Sea Scrolls and. Yeah [01:10:30] because size for font and people are my age. No chance.

Payman Langroudi: The regulatory side is so ridiculous [01:10:35] as well.

Avijit Banerjee: And there you go.

Payman Langroudi: Write it in 14 different.

Avijit Banerjee: Languages and you have to put every last bit [01:10:40] of and this is the problem. So I’ve been working with some industry partners now [01:10:45] to, to dare I say produce. I don’t want to say simplify because it’s not simplified produce [01:10:50] correct step by step protocols. Yeah. You know that you could laminate you know you could you could [01:10:55] literally just have a PDF and laminate it or you have it on your screen in the, you know, if you wanted to. [01:11:00] Yeah. Because there’s no harm in that. But but I mean correct. Not just not not a, not a crib sheet but I mean [01:11:05] properly this is what you do and. I’m I’m for [01:11:10] those sorts of things. But at the same time, there’s part of me that not [01:11:15] I don’t want to say dumb it down is wrong because it’s not dumbing it down. But what I don’t want is people [01:11:20] to just rely on tables and flowcharts, because then they switch this off because [01:11:25] the other skill, if you understand the histology, you understand the chemistry and you [01:11:30] understand the clinical handling of the material. Those three things, Golden triangle, I call it in the book, [01:11:35] right. If you get that, what you can start to do is adapt. Because [01:11:40] your histology will never be optimal. You’ll be compromising, as I just mentioned, [01:11:45] proximal box base of a proximal box. How are you going to get moisture control? Do you chase [01:11:50] the caries and go three millimetres subgingival and then you can’t restore it? What do you do. So you [01:11:55] understand your histology. Now if you’ve got that situation, do you really understand the chemistry [01:12:00] behind what’s in that bonding agent? Or how you use that asset, or [01:12:05] how you use that particular resin composite or whatever material it is. Because if [01:12:10] you know the understand the chemistry, I’m not talking about learning formulae. I’m talking about understanding [01:12:15] what each component does. So by knowing that you can start to, you know, [01:12:20] bespoke.

Payman Langroudi: What you do to.

Avijit Banerjee: That. So you might extra bit longer on a particular tooth. You might, you [01:12:25] might, you might air dry something a bit. Whatever subtle changes in your clinical because [01:12:30] you’ve understood those two things and you’re allowed to do that and write it in [01:12:35] your notes. Simples.

Payman Langroudi: What about, uh, radiographic [01:12:40] signs of, you know, things that we would have gone in and drilled for? Yeah, [01:12:45] that we no longer do.

Avijit Banerjee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Again, where are we at?

Avijit Banerjee: We’ve published some guideline papers. So one [01:12:50] of the other things, again, I’ve put them in the textbook and the references is that it’s not just perio [01:12:55] who has guidelines about right. Caries has guidelines. Now we’ve probably got about ten, 12 [01:13:00] different guidelines papers. They are guidelines. They’re not law. They’re not rules. They’re guidelines. [01:13:05] And one of them has been looking at when do we intervene. Yeah. When do you go in with a drill. And [01:13:10] the radiographic appearance is something people have looked at. Unfortunately in all [01:13:15] the data for the last 50, 60 years, when people have trawled through it, there [01:13:20] is no link, no clear link between the radiographic depth of a lesion and cavitation. [01:13:25] Surprisingly, now, obviously at the extremes there are so obviously if the [01:13:30] if the lesion is radiographically over a third of the way into the tooth, there [01:13:35] is increased likelihood they’ll be cavitation. And note my words I’m using increased likelihood. [01:13:40] I’m not saying it will be cavitated. There’s an increased likelihood. If it’s within enamel [01:13:45] and an edge, then it’s very unlikely to be cavitated. But I’m not saying never, [01:13:50] but unlikely in the middle. It depends. You’ve got to examine. So the problem [01:13:55] we have is radiographs have been there for ages. They’re still an incredibly important, [01:14:00] uh, detection, uh, technology that we need to use. But we need to interpret [01:14:05] them carefully. And there’s all sorts of issues, stuff that we were taught that the [01:14:10] radiographic lesion is sort of behind the real lesion in terms of the radiolucency and demon, [01:14:15] all those classic things. But now.

Payman Langroudi: Is that not the.

Avijit Banerjee: Case? No, it is, but no, but there’s other [01:14:20] things now. There’s other things. So there are some restorative materials that when you place on [01:14:25] a tooth, could potentially accentuate the radiolucency at the base of a cavity [01:14:30] underneath the rest of the restorative material. Yeah. All right. Things like this. So if you don’t know [01:14:35] the chemistry it you wouldn’t know. And therefore you’ll see a radiolucency when you take your out [01:14:40] a year later or two years later and think your secondary carriers are going to drill it. So again, when I teach [01:14:45] I make sure people understand you are not drilling the radiograph. You’re [01:14:50] using that as an example, as one bit of information to make a decision. And [01:14:55] don’t just assume because you see a radiolucency underneath the restoration that it automatically [01:15:00] means it’s pathology. It might be, but there’ll be other clues. And your job is to get the [01:15:05] clues, the.

Payman Langroudi: Significance of the cavitation. Do we not drill if there isn’t cavitation essentially. [01:15:10]

Avijit Banerjee: Basically, yeah. I mean, we’re getting these sorts of guidelines now that if a lesion [01:15:15] is not overtly, clinically cavitated, you won’t necessarily have to drill [01:15:20] into it. You could do a therapeutic sealant. There could be other things you could do, rather than picking up a [01:15:25] handpiece with a rotating bur and cutting in. All right. Now, as with all [01:15:30] these things, we’re never I’m never saying never. You can’t do that. You have to make a clinical judgement [01:15:35] of what’s in front of you. But the automatic, you know, we would I was taught if [01:15:40] there’s a radiolucency into dentine, drill it. Yeah. All right. That is incorrect. Now [01:15:45] it was right at the time. And I’m not criticising what I was taught, but it’s not right now. But [01:15:50] I did some research only five years ago, just before Covid, we looked at a study in London [01:15:55] with around 220 dentists survey about when you would intervene. [01:16:00] And we showed pictures of radiographs of depths of lesion. Yeah. And [01:16:05] we showed clinical pictures from a sound fissure pattern right the way through to a big cavity. [01:16:10] And if I remember rightly from my data, nearly 60% [01:16:15] of clinicians in 2019, in London were [01:16:20] drilling in abnormal spot lesions. White spot lesions, which is not been taught. [01:16:25]

Payman Langroudi: Ever.

Avijit Banerjee: Well, not been taught for many, many, many, many years. So [01:16:30] there is still an implementation disconnect. And that is quite remarkable [01:16:35] I think.

Payman Langroudi: Have you come across these, um, AI driven, um, x [01:16:40] ray diagnosis?

Avijit Banerjee: I’ve, I was asked several years ago to [01:16:45] get involved with some research looking into those, uh, those sort of software packages [01:16:50] and that development. I haven’t directly I am aware of them, and I [01:16:55] know several of my colleagues in Europe have done a lot of work in these areas. And I think they’re, [01:17:00] they’re, they’re developing, I think, getting the database of information, because I [01:17:05] obviously works in big data and has to learn and has to work on big, big data. So they’re getting [01:17:10] clever and clever at picking. But what is interesting, certainly at the moment, and probably [01:17:15] for the I don’t want to put a time frame on it, but for the next immediate future, [01:17:20] if you’re using that technology, I’m not saying don’t use it, but you still got to use the main [01:17:25] bit of technology that we were all given when we were born. Exactly. The stuff between [01:17:30] your ears. That’s really important because however good the AI is, it’s not [01:17:35] perfect and you still it will give you an indication, it will give you a percentage [01:17:40] risk. This is caries or not. You have to be the one who’s picking up the drill. [01:17:45]

Payman Langroudi: It comes down to it serves you. You don’t serve it. Bingo. This is.

Avijit Banerjee: Now. Maybe there’ll come [01:17:50] a day with, you know, with AI robots or whatever. You know, where.

Payman Langroudi: They sit in [01:17:55] front of the robot. Exactly. Absolutely.

Avijit Banerjee: Hopefully I’ll be long retired and long [01:18:00] gone. Um, but at the moment, that tech is there. [01:18:05] I do believe it’s interesting. It’s exciting. I have no issue with people developing it and [01:18:10] learning from it, but we need to be clever about how we use it. And exactly [01:18:15] your point. It helps us, not the other way around.

Payman Langroudi: But but what other tech? I mean, I know [01:18:20] Itero came out with something which was like a camera that they call it a near-field [01:18:25] or something. It’s almost like a scanner that you put in the mouth, but it detects. Yeah. [01:18:30] So again, what are the good stuff?

Avijit Banerjee: I’ve just got a new PhD starting that. I’m working [01:18:35] with a colleague looking at intraoral scanning and demineralisation detection. A [01:18:40] lot of the companies have realised you’ve got intraoral scanners, you know, doing [01:18:45] all this work. And it’s been primarily obviously always been used for essentially replacing impressions and [01:18:50] what have you. But there’s so much more physics you could build into it. And [01:18:55] I’ve said this for many years now. The difficulty my PhD many moons ago was looking at fluorescence [01:19:00] of caries, but using really high end laboratory confocal microscopes and [01:19:05] all sorts of fancy experimental stuff. So I do have a bit [01:19:10] of sort of knowledge of the physics, and it’s complex. And as you’re well aware now, there’s [01:19:15] lots of sort of detection devices that are based on, on light scattering and fluorescence [01:19:20] and things like this. And there’s several bunch of different companies producing cameras and, and what [01:19:25] have you. All of them can be beneficial. It goes back to what you said. If they [01:19:30] are a device that help you make a decision, but don’t make the decision [01:19:35] for you. And I think that’s the important point. If a clinician is [01:19:40] solely relying on the tech to tell them there’s caries or not, or [01:19:45] something’s wrong when there isn’t or whatever, you will make plenty of, you’ll [01:19:50] Overtreat is the bottom line. So you cannot ignore [01:19:55] the stuff between your ears and you have to use that, that detection, [01:20:00] uh, technology as an adjunct to what you’re doing. [01:20:05] And then it can be amazing.

Payman Langroudi: What about the sort of danger [01:20:10] of undertreatment? You must have fallen down that hazard [01:20:15] once in a while, right? When you’re when you’re trying to be less invasive.

Avijit Banerjee: Absolutely. We got [01:20:20] I got brilliant cases and I show them in my lectures. Do. Oh yeah. Yeah. No, no, you’ve got to see. Absolutely. [01:20:25] And there was a classic one of a patient who came in [01:20:30] and there were lesions you could see on the bike wing. And there were sort of shadows, you know, the classic little shadow, but no, [01:20:35] no obvious cavitation or anything like that. And this is quite a long time ago made a judgement call. We’re [01:20:40] not going to operatively intervene. We’re going to non-operatively intervene, like I was mentioning. So [01:20:45] oral hygiene, diet or remineralising agents, all that sort of stuff. We [01:20:50] went really carefully through all the interproximal cleaning and all this sort of stuff. Patient understood [01:20:55] and didn’t come back for reviews. They were given reviews, didn’t come back and [01:21:00] then came back a year or maybe 18 months later. And now you’ve got frank cavities. [01:21:05] Okay, now this was a while back, so I took a deep breath and thought, oh [01:21:10] gosh, now I could be in trouble here because I should, I should I [01:21:15] just drill the teeth? You know, that’s what people are going to accuse me of. The patient admitted they didn’t [01:21:20] come back, you know, and there wasn’t any. Luckily, there wasn’t a big issue, but it made [01:21:25] me think long and hard about who’s liable here. And this is a really important [01:21:30] sort of ethical dilemma and a medical legal dilemma. And as you know, I’ve been talking about [01:21:35] me and Me.ok and mid now for since the mid 90s, late 90s. [01:21:40] All right. And this case I did was actually early naughty. So it was around then. And [01:21:45] I genuinely had a few sleepless nights thinking, what’s going to happen? As I said, luckily [01:21:50] it didn’t go further.

Avijit Banerjee: But the point is, whose actual fault was [01:21:55] it that those lesions had developed? Was it my fault for not drilling the teeth [01:22:00] and putting a filling in? Because I done all the biofilm control. I done all of that really [01:22:05] carefully. And I was calling the patient back. There was evidence that we were trying to call the patient back, you know, [01:22:10] for for active surveillance, for recalls. Patient didn’t come. That’s [01:22:15] not my fault. I’m not the patient’s keeper. Clinicians don’t [01:22:20] have that level of responsibility to our patients. We can’t. That’s physically impossible. So [01:22:25] all we can do is impart the knowledge and understanding and facilitate and enable and encourage, [01:22:30] right and motivate. But we’re also going to do the right thing. And [01:22:35] there’s a in the preface in that book, I’ve said that, you know, that [01:22:40] what heals disease is not the drill and the and the filling. [01:22:45] It’s the toothbrush. That’s what cures disease. All we’re doing when we’re drilling a hole and [01:22:50] putting a filling in is we’re trying to make it easier for the patient to clean that surface of the tooth. Of [01:22:55] course, there’s structure and function and things like, yeah, I get that in aesthetics. But ultimately, from a disease point [01:23:00] of view, it’s biofilm. It’s all about the biofilm. That’s it. That’s what selective caries [01:23:05] removal is about. We’re not bothered about the bugs in the tooth. We’re bothered about the bugs in the biofilm. So [01:23:10] if we’re doing this and pushing this, the onus now becomes back on the patient [01:23:15] because they’re the ones doing biotherm control.

Payman Langroudi: I think we need to have an honest conversation around [01:23:20] the question of progress. Yeah, that there is. When you’re at the [01:23:25] tip of the spear, as you are, there’s going to be times where [01:23:30] you try things. Yeah, yeah. Now. Yeah. Okay. It would be ideal, [01:23:35] correct, for you to tell the patient I’m trying this. Let’s even say for the first time. Absolutely, [01:23:40] absolutely. But at the tip of the spear, that’s that’s where you that’s where you’re, you’re you’re [01:23:45] operating. You’re not you’re not operating in general practice. Yeah. The information comes to you 17 years later. [01:23:50] Yeah. You’re at the tip of the spear. Yeah. At that point, there’s going to be times of experimentation [01:23:55] on patients. Of course, all the time. Of course, if we want progress, of course, and progress [01:24:00] doesn’t go in a straight line, progress goes up and then 100%.

Avijit Banerjee: But it’s an interesting [01:24:05] it’s an interesting point you make because, yeah, I’m privileged in what I do because I do the research. [01:24:10] I work in a, in a, in a academic hospital where, yeah, we, I and [01:24:15] I have the links with industry. So they’re sending me all these. All right. They’re obviously see Mark they’re all legal [01:24:20] to go in the mouth. But they are they haven’t been put on the market yet and they want to try things out. And I help develop [01:24:25] them. And you try them and you obviously let patients know that you’re doing it and and you get consent to do [01:24:30] it and everything else. And actually the vast majority of patients are very keen because they like the idea of being [01:24:35] at the forefront. Yeah. All right. But I also think that role [01:24:40] should happen in primary care to a degree as well, to a degree [01:24:45] because I.

Payman Langroudi: And it is.

Avijit Banerjee: Happening. It is. And but I think I think when.

Payman Langroudi: People say in my [01:24:50] hands is this bingo.

Avijit Banerjee: Right. And it goes back to your question right at the beginning about studies. [01:24:55] You know, if you have a product and people are asking for studies, well, what I say to primary care teams [01:25:00] and I’m, I’m not saying dentists because dental therapists, dental how’s everybody when if you’re clinically working on a [01:25:05] patient and you’re doing a technique or a product or using a technology, whatever. You [01:25:10] need to write down in your notes what you’ve done, why you’ve done it, what you’ve found. [01:25:15] Just like I would like a research thing, right? And there’s ways of writing that. I’m not saying [01:25:20] you have to write a Shakespearean diatribe, but you write it and then you keep doing it, and then you build [01:25:25] up the data set for you. So when a patient then asks you, how many times have you done this, you can say, well, actually, [01:25:30] I’ve done it 50 times. And what’s your success rate? Well, actually my success rate is actually 93% because you can [01:25:35] literally get the data. Yeah, that is infinitely more powerful [01:25:40] than any publication in a journal by some random person [01:25:45] who’s, who’s worked in a, in a, in a, in an environment where it’s all the factors are controlled [01:25:50] and everything else, which is what sort of we have to do with trials. So I and I know [01:25:55] industry are very keen to have more and more of that sort of data. So I would say that that that [01:26:00] tip of the spear happens in primary care as well. You’re right.

Payman Langroudi: But but also look in the pre-trial [01:26:05] phase. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. The pre-trial phase doesn’t get talked about at all. Of course not. But the pre-trial [01:26:10] phase that someone, somewhere tried something. Absolutely and absolutely. And it was a [01:26:15] good idea. Absolutely. They took it to a company. The company. And then the company came to you for trials. Absolutely. I mean, I was talking [01:26:20] to Tiff about this and there would be no enlighten. Yeah. In today’s environment. [01:26:25] Yeah. Correct. We tried things. I tried things on myself and my family. Absolutely. [01:26:30] And then and then we tried things.

Avijit Banerjee: And but but this is, this is where [01:26:35] the problem I’ve had being in research now for nearly 30 [01:26:40] years, about 30 years. What upsets me is that we’re getting [01:26:45] more and more tied up with red tape bureaucracy and process. Now, don’t misunderstand [01:26:50] me. We need levels of red tape and process. I’m not saying we get rid of it [01:26:55] all overnight. Of course not. Yeah. However, we were just talking about Professor Nilsson [01:27:00] just a few minutes ago and what he did in the 70s. You’re talking about developing your [01:27:05] your whitening products and how you did it. Okay. You sort of did it in the background [01:27:10] quietly. I tried things out exactly right now. If you did that now and [01:27:15] the regulator worked that out, couldn’t you’d be have a legal case, wouldn’t you? That’s my point. [01:27:20] And that’s then just in the way of progress.

Payman Langroudi: To some extent there is an.

Avijit Banerjee: Argument or it just [01:27:25] makes progress that much harder. And you have to be that more evolved and, you know, have a team of people [01:27:30] and everything else. And it sometimes saddens me because when Covid hit, [01:27:35] what happened? Three laboratories or however many laboratories around the world, key laboratories [01:27:40] got their heads together, went, bam, bam, bam, let’s get these experiments done. Bam. Right, we tried it. Let’s get a [01:27:45] quick trial done, a quick dirty trial. And what was interesting, the way that was reported in the media, because the press [01:27:50] didn’t have a clue what they were reporting about, were commenting about rush, but it [01:27:55] was rushed. But it was still the processes were followed. All right. They were streamlined. Absolutely. But they [01:28:00] were followed. And I remember there was one classic one morning I was coming into work and [01:28:05] radio four was saying how one of the Covid trials had stopped because of an adverse reaction or something. Okay. [01:28:10] And I came into work and people were talking about it and I went. You have adverse reactions [01:28:15] all the time in clinical trials. All that’s happened is this is the first time in history that [01:28:20] journalists are talking about it and sticking it in a news broadcast. You just don’t know this is going on. This happens [01:28:25] all the time. It’s not big deal.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Avijit Banerjee: It’s not like somebody died or something like that. [01:28:30] And even if it has, that happens when you’re doing this sort of level of, of trial. Right. And [01:28:35] I don’t mean that flippantly but it shows the stakes. Okay. But that doesn’t [01:28:40] mean the trial is and the implication was the trial has been done terribly and this is awful. And it’s not [01:28:45] that is part of normal trial process, but no one knows. And I would argue [01:28:50] why should people know it? They don’t need to. They don’t need to. I don’t [01:28:55] know how my car engine works. Yeah, right. Yeah. I don’t need to. [01:29:00] I don’t have the brain capacity to cope with that. Right. And I’m and admiration [01:29:05] and awe of people who do and I need them. And that’s my point. And [01:29:10] because we live in a world where you can just tap into so much information, but the problem is you can tap into [01:29:15] misinformation, you tap into superficial information. And what we actually need is the depth of information [01:29:20] to get the full story. And people don’t do that anymore because.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, you can you can pull out, you can [01:29:25] pull out any bit of information that serves your yes, you can pre pre-decided of course. [01:29:30]

Avijit Banerjee: You can. Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got questions around fluoride right. And hydroxyapatite [01:29:35] in toothpaste. So we brought out a hydroxyapatite toothpaste in 2009 [01:29:40] okay. Having that with fluoride was a nightmare [01:29:45] a disaster because it was become fluorapatite correct. Yeah. And but [01:29:50] commercially we couldn’t put one out that was fluoride free back then [01:29:55] and try and sell that to dentists. Yeah. Today there’s a bunch of hydroxyapatite [01:30:00] toothpaste that are fluoride free, and there’s a bunch of people who want the best non [01:30:05] fluoride toothpaste that’s available. Yeah. What are your thoughts around fluoride? I’m interested in fluoridated water. [01:30:10] If you if what you think about that. And then what about hydroxyapatite as an alternative to fluoride. [01:30:15]

Avijit Banerjee: So in answering your first question about, you know, fluoride in toothpaste and water, I [01:30:20] have to admit I am in the camp that I’m in favour in terms of having when [01:30:25] you when you realise, as I said to you, 40% of the planet are suffering from dental caries. And this [01:30:30] is something that’s been tried and tested for nearly nearly 50 years in terms [01:30:35] of having fluoride in the water. It’s very, very, very, very low levels, remember, has been shown to have [01:30:40] a beneficial effect. What is interesting, we’ve had some clinical trial data out recently that [01:30:45] didn’t quite hit the news as I thought it would. There have been some reviews and trials to show [01:30:50] that water fluoridation probably now has plateaued in terms of its beneficial [01:30:55] effect. So when we were at dental school, we learned about all the studies and, you know, all the classic [01:31:00] studies of fluoride studies and everything else. Right? And we realised that fluoride and water was great [01:31:05] and it brought the caries rate down. And that was brilliant. Okay. It’s not going to bring the caries rate down [01:31:10] down down down down to zero always. It will take it to a level and basically hold [01:31:15] it there because there are other factors involved. Yeah, yeah that’s the point. And there has been some [01:31:20] data and some studies now that’s come out publicly sort of to say that that [01:31:25] doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have fluoride in the water or fluoride in toothpaste, but [01:31:30] this idea that by keeping on doing it, it’s just going to improve things and improve things and improve [01:31:35] things. I’m also not sure is right. Does that make sense? Of course. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: In your view, is [01:31:40] the the the idea that fluoride is somehow toxic, is that.

Avijit Banerjee: Not. [01:31:45]

Payman Langroudi: Do you see that as complete bunk? Yeah.

Avijit Banerjee: Yeah. In terms of the amounts [01:31:50] that are being used and everything else. Yeah. Basically, yes. That’s my personal opinion based [01:31:55] on science and research and everything else I appreciate. There are other points of view. And I as [01:32:00] I said, I’m not. I don’t I’m not going to get drawn into who’s right or wrong. That’s your [01:32:05] that’s my position. You talk about hydroxyapatite and other mineralising agents. [01:32:10] I think that’s a really important point. And again, when I, when I teach about fluoride and [01:32:15] remineralization and everything else, I always like simplifying things. I have a very simple mind, [01:32:20] a very simple brain, and I like having really simple analogies in my students. And people will know that. [01:32:25] And the analogy I always use, if you’re building a brick wall, you need bricks [01:32:30] and you need mortar, right? And if you think the bricks are your mineral [01:32:35] hydroxyapatite or calcium phosphate or other, you know, [01:32:40] ions, the fluoride, if you like, is the mortar. So [01:32:45] you can’t just have fluoride on its own because that’s actually not going to happen. It’ll have some beneficial effects, but not [01:32:50] necessarily a reaming effect. It might strengthen some of the mineral because like you said, the fluoride incorporates [01:32:55] into crystals, but it won’t remineralize because you need the [01:33:00] mineral crystals. You need the ions. Right. So if you think of it bricks and mortar, it [01:33:05] makes a bit of sense. And then it gets even better. The analogy, because if you watch a bricklayer, if you look at a house, [01:33:10] bricks are placed in an interlaced pattern, aren’t they? Right. [01:33:15]

Avijit Banerjee: They’re not stacked in columns. Yeah. And there’s a reason for that. Because if you actually built a wall [01:33:20] where the bricks are all on top of each other, stacked in columns, that wall would be inherently weak because its [01:33:25] structure has changed. Yeah. Whereas if you interlace them, you actually get an interlocking structure. [01:33:30] So it actually builds some intrinsic strength with the same number of bricks. So you haven’t increased [01:33:35] the amount of mineral. Yeah. And it’s exactly the same in teeth. So that’s where your hydroxyapatite [01:33:40] and different crystals of octacalcium phosphate [01:33:45] whitlockite and a whole bunch of different crystals can form with different configurations. [01:33:50] And that way that they stack and the way they’re organised will also have an effect. So the whole [01:33:55] issue about Remineralization is a really interesting one. It’s a complex, [01:34:00] complex science, really complex, and people misunderstand [01:34:05] what it means. Enamel clearly cannot remineralize because remineralization is a biological [01:34:10] reaction. You need cells to cause remineralization [01:34:15] enamel can you can have mineral deposition, you can crystallise. [01:34:20] Absolutely. You can precipitate, you can do all those things. But I’m a [01:34:25] bit of a pedant when it comes to terminology. And remineralization to me is something biological. [01:34:30] Okay. So dentine can remineralize because you’ve got you’ve got the odontoblasts [01:34:35] and you’ve got the pulp. They’re working hard. All right. So organic.

Payman Langroudi: Element.

Avijit Banerjee: Yeah exactly. So [01:34:40] there’s a difference subtle difference between ream in remineralization and mineral deposition. [01:34:45] And a lot of our, uh, remineralizing agents that we [01:34:50] have are really topical agents that you put on the tooth, and you’ll get [01:34:55] mineral crystal deposition on the surface. They often don’t penetrate into the porosities [01:35:00] or go further, deeper into the, into the enamel or dentine. And that can have consequences [01:35:05] in itself, which is why they get worn off quicker and all this sort of thing. Again, I’ve had [01:35:10] PhD students and postdocs and people looking at different ways [01:35:15] of trying to get the mineral into a tooth and the difficulty with the toothpaste. [01:35:20] Clearly it’s only on the teeth for, well, for most people, a few seconds. Sure. [01:35:25] And that’s the difficulty is not there long enough for it to have any effect. [01:35:30] But you made a really valid point in a commercial world ten, [01:35:35] even ten years ago, it was nearly impossible to sell a fluoride non fluoride [01:35:40] toothpaste because people go.

Payman Langroudi: Especially to dentists. I’m absolutely convinced.

Avijit Banerjee: Now [01:35:45] there’s the options I. Yeah, and you can. And again, the problem with social media is you get [01:35:50] influencers and people saying use this, use that without any scientific [01:35:55] basis, just because they’re probably getting the product free or getting a, you know, a freebie from [01:36:00] it. And people listen and they watch this. And then the difficulty then becomes when [01:36:05] they start getting disease. You know.

Payman Langroudi: I think in some markets [01:36:10] in Japan, 25% of the population are not using fluoride toothpaste. And in Russia, [01:36:15] 25% of the population not using 30% of population not using fluoride toothpaste. [01:36:20] What’s the.

Avijit Banerjee: Caries? Right.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know, I’m not aware, but but both both those countries have got real fluoride [01:36:25] issues.

Avijit Banerjee: But you’ve got to.

Payman Langroudi: Remember the public. The public. Yeah. You [01:36:30] know, I don’t know what the case is in Japan, but a Russian guy explained it to me. He said, look, when you’ve been lied [01:36:35] to a lot by your government, you start to question everything. Absolutely. And so the public’s questioning [01:36:40] fluoride now.

Avijit Banerjee: And that’s and that’s a flavour.

Payman Langroudi: Of the month.

Avijit Banerjee: And that’s a totally legitimate argument. This is [01:36:45] this is what I said at the beginning. Remember I said there’s so many layers to the complexity of caries and things [01:36:50] like this. This is exactly it. It’s one of it’s things like this that we don’t even well, I say we don’t even think [01:36:55] about. Maybe we start doing and but with social media just straight in [01:37:00] our faces continuously and and it is let’s be honest, it’s that, [01:37:05] that that’s created the fact that people can just see things immediately. As you well [01:37:10] know, things can be doctored and what have you. And it could be like like your colleague friend said, [01:37:15] that, you know, if you’ve been in a, in a, in a regime where you’re just being lied to continuously, [01:37:20] what do you believe anymore? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I have huge sympathy. [01:37:25] I nothing else I can say really. I know dental schools in Russia [01:37:30] are being taught this sort of stuff and everything else. They’re not backward or anything like that at all. [01:37:35] But he was talking.

Payman Langroudi: About the public.

Avijit Banerjee: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about fissure Sealants, because I remember [01:37:40] when when we were growing up, it was the flavour of the month. Yeah. And then they kind of got a [01:37:45] bad, bad press after that carries on. Yeah. Yeah. Where are we now.

Avijit Banerjee: Right again. This [01:37:50] again links back to my paper paying for prevention because what we’ve done now is mapped. [01:37:55] Actually the fact that NHS dentists with the Udas can claim for sealants because [01:38:00] this is important, because it’s a really important part of prevention. So if you remember I mentioned microinvasive, I said [01:38:05] non-invasive microinvasive and then minimally invasive. Right. So microinvasive are sealants and [01:38:10] infiltration. So sealants essentially there are three types [01:38:15] of sealant. You’ve got your therapeutic sealant, you’ve got. Well, let’s start from [01:38:20] the beginning. Sorry. You’ve got a preventive sealant first. Right. So that’s patient who’s not got caries [01:38:25] in the tooth, but the mouth is a bit high risk. So the classic erupting six. All right. In a [01:38:30] in a in a kiddies mouth where they’re having a bit of chocolate and things like that. So the mouth is at risk. [01:38:35] But the tooth at the moment hasn’t got caries. Yeah. So there you might well seal that [01:38:40] to prevent the early lesion from starting. So it’s a preventive sealant [01:38:45] right. Then you’ve got a therapeutic sealant. So this is when I was saying to you non cavitated [01:38:50] but a lesion into edge. Yep. Um there [01:38:55] you can seal that in. Essentially you’ll use your accents and [01:39:00] things like this and do your procedures properly. And you do it so you’ve got some disease and [01:39:05] you’re sealing it in and you’re using, if you like, the microscopic aspect of your sealant to embed [01:39:10] in, are you.

Payman Langroudi: Doing anything different than etch and seal?

Avijit Banerjee: You may you may [01:39:15] condition the surface with some air abrasion or something like that. If you want, you could, but you’re not drilling [01:39:20] out a cavity in that sense. Absolutely not. Yeah. And then and if you think about it, this is all just going along [01:39:25] a spectrum. So beyond that now you’ve got a tooth where you might think one pit. [01:39:30] Oh a bit suspicious, a bit deeper, the rest. Okay. It’s what we used [01:39:35] to call a preventive resin restoration.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah right.

Avijit Banerjee: A tiny little excavation, little drop [01:39:40] in, restore that and seal the rest. Yeah, yeah. And that’s now a sealant restoration. [01:39:45] Okay. And this is really important because the way you can claim, [01:39:50] if you’ve written in the notes and you’ve explained why he goes back to the care plan, not treatment plan. Yeah. [01:39:55] If you’ve written why and how you’re doing it, this is best clinical practice. And if you [01:40:00] put the claim in for that for your UDA, you will get it. And we are now going around the country [01:40:05] training local clinical advisors to understand that a sealant isn’t just a, you [01:40:10] know, somebody just poured some flowable resin composite onto a tooth and like cured it. And in fact, that [01:40:15] was the problem. You you made the comment. They got a bad rap for a period. Yeah. I remember lecturing [01:40:20] at a Denplan conference many, many, many years ago. And Richard Simonsson, who’s retired [01:40:25] now, uh, is American, uh, dentist. I met him when he was in Kuwait. [01:40:30] Really lovely guy, but he was on the team on the panel that developed fissure sealant. Well, [01:40:35] and he was talking in front of 300 basically specialist dentists in this audience. [01:40:40] And he said to them, I use an endodontic microscope to place sealants. [01:40:45] And that was the reaction. And there was a gasp. And I turn around. [01:40:50] I was in the audience said to people, yeah, but remember, this is a guy who invented him. So think about it. And the argument [01:40:55] is, and I talk about this a lot, and I show my own cases where I’ve done [01:41:00] a fissure sealant and it all looks fabulous and everything is great. And I asked people to it’s on the screen and I asked people to judge [01:41:05] it. Tell me what you think. Everybody thinks it’s okay. I said, no, it’s awful because people do them inherently incorrectly, [01:41:10] because people overfill the cavity, they overfill the fissures. If you do a fissure sealant correctly, [01:41:15] you should barely see it because it should be literally filling the fissure, not [01:41:20] flooding the occlusal surface so that.

Payman Langroudi: The occlusion doesn’t mess with it.

Avijit Banerjee: Correct. And again, [01:41:25] how many clinicians check the occlusion before they place the fissure sealants?

Payman Langroudi: Hardly [01:41:30] anybody. It’s important.

Avijit Banerjee: Right. How many check afterwards. Hardly anybody. You need to check [01:41:35] before and after because that’s where it goes wrong. Because you overfill. Right. [01:41:40] They go away. The patient goes away. Bite together, chips a bit off. Guess what? You get leakage, [01:41:45] they come back or they don’t come back. Which is the other problem because they do need to come back for your active surveillance. [01:41:50] My fourth domain of minimum intervention oral care. They’ve got to come back. This idea that you just [01:41:55] send them on their way, never see them again. Nonsense. They’ve got to come back. They’ve got to value [01:42:00] what’s been done. They’ve got to show they’re using their toothbrush properly and everything else. Otherwise they won’t work. And if they [01:42:05] have bitten on it, it’s chipped. You could catch it and repair it or you don’t. And then you get caries under [01:42:10] it. And everybody says the fissure. And it’s terrible.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, as a general point, checking the occlusion before [01:42:15] doing anything is.

Avijit Banerjee: Vital, is.

Payman Langroudi: Vital. Absolutely. It’s such a it’s such an obvious hack. [01:42:20]

Avijit Banerjee: There’s no one.

Payman Langroudi: Hardly anybody does filling.

Avijit Banerjee: Hardly anybody does it. Check the occlusion.

Payman Langroudi: Correct. We do composite. Correct the [01:42:25] occlusion.

Avijit Banerjee: It’s absolutely so.

Payman Langroudi: Useful to do.

Avijit Banerjee: Absolutely. It’s a must really. It’s what’s taught. It’s [01:42:30] in the book. But again does everybody do it. Does everybody use moisture control properly. Probably not. And [01:42:35] I know it can be clinically very difficult. But if you can’t get good moisture control i.e. [01:42:40] rubber dam then think about using a GIC, a glass ionomer based sealant. They [01:42:45] exist and they can work very, very well. So my point is it goes back to my golden triangle understanding [01:42:50] histology, the handling and the chemistry I think almost.

Payman Langroudi: I remember when I was a dentist, there [01:42:55] were there was one type of sealant that was kind of filled and you could see it, and there was one that was [01:43:00] sort of completely invisible. You want to be able to see it? Absolutely.

Avijit Banerjee: And if you look at if you [01:43:05] look at some of the GRC based ones, they are they’re orange in colour. Is that right? Right. And [01:43:10] there there is obviously meant more for children and difficult, you know, clinical management [01:43:15] and moisture control. But yeah, I mean the point and that’s my argument for a sealant, [01:43:20] if you’re placing it properly it will be the thinnest line on the occlusal surface. So actually you do [01:43:25] want it to be a bit of a different colour. Yeah. To know it’s been done. Otherwise you’ll just never know. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s [01:43:30] got to be in the notes because if you know and we should in a perfect world have notes that [01:43:35] go with the patient. So if the patient moves and goes to another practice, the practice should get the notes and see, oh [01:43:40] a sealant was done. Otherwise they might think, oh it’s a white line in the Fisher pattern. Oh gosh. Is that is that demineralisation. [01:43:45] You know, and this is my point. So it’s really important that you [01:43:50] are loops. You are magnification. So you can see things properly with good headlights. All these [01:43:55] things are part of modern contemporary operative dentistry. Things that when we were growing [01:44:00] up were fancy. You think, oh my gosh, who would use those? It should be automatic now. [01:44:05] It should be absolutely automatic. Like you wearing gloves, you should wear loops.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [01:44:10] move on to darker. Questions.

Avijit Banerjee: Okay, now I’m getting worried.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [01:44:15] this what we like to talk about errors. Mistakes sort [01:44:20] of in that. Do you know about black box thinking? Let’s do it in that black box thinking [01:44:25] way of trying to learn from each other’s mistakes and trying to not [01:44:30] sort of run away from our errors, trying to say, look, this was the mistake I made and this is [01:44:35] what I learned from it. What comes to mind when I so.

Avijit Banerjee: From a from a clinical [01:44:40] perspective, I think the case I mentioned earlier with, with the caries was a genuinely interesting [01:44:45] one, because that was a pretty heart stopping when that patient came back, because I suddenly thought. [01:44:50] I’m in trouble here. Um, but it did made me realise that, actually, [01:44:55] you’ve got to have some faith in the decision making you have. Luckily, [01:45:00] my notes were good. And they were very contemporaneous and explained why I didn’t go [01:45:05] in. And that goes back to this care planning bit. So in the end, I learned those sorts [01:45:10] of aspects. I do periodontology in private practice now. Okay. On the on the [01:45:15] sessions I do once a month. And um, in those I’ve had cases where [01:45:20] you do and I and I’m not I, I’m happy and proud to admit [01:45:25] I’m a good dental hygienist. I’m not trying to make out that I’m some [01:45:30] amazing periodontist that does microsurgery and all this stuff. I do perio [01:45:35] for the masses.

Payman Langroudi: Non-surgical.

Avijit Banerjee: Non-surgical, you know, pmpr, super [01:45:40] sub, you know, SPT, all this sort of stuff, all the stuff that the perio guidelines say. Okay, I [01:45:45] used to do some flap surgery in the good old days. I haven’t done it for too long. I wouldn’t claim to be able [01:45:50] to. However, 95% of perio in [01:45:55] real life primary care is that it’s probably only 5% that needs the fancy stuff, of [01:46:00] course, so I do it. So I’m very proud to say I think I’m a decent dental hygienist. It [01:46:05] helps having professor in front of your name that people listen, and that’s very important because it’s about [01:46:10] the listening, isn’t it? It’s the motivation. And in one case that does come to mind, not so much the [01:46:15] operative bit, but it was the patient handling bit. And I got it all wrong. You [01:46:20] know me, I’m known for my personality being a little bit of a bit of a [01:46:25] bit effervescent, a bit in-your-face. Yeah. You know, say it as type of thing. [01:46:30] And and I’m like that with everybody. At least you know I’m not I’m not two faced in that respect. I’m helping [01:46:35] others but not in that respect. And so, you know, it is what you see is what you get. And that’s my nature with people [01:46:40] and. Such words.

Avijit Banerjee: It’s been great for pretty much [01:46:45] everybody, but there was one person where it didn’t work and and obviously at [01:46:50] that level is all about behavioural change and getting the brush properly and the technique and everything else. [01:46:55] And the did my operative work in the pmpr and [01:47:00] then went through all the oral hygiene really carefully with them. They came back a month later and nothing had improved. [01:47:05] And I was talking to them, and their perception of what I was saying was that [01:47:10] I was basically scolding them and being aggressive and whatever. When I was trying to [01:47:15] explain that things haven’t changed and we need to modify again. And the patient felt they can’t do [01:47:20] any more and they didn’t like that, so they put a complaint in. So that had to then be [01:47:25] diffused. And it’s a matter of then sitting down and looking at how you come across how you’re [01:47:30] perceived. And so I suppose for me, a lot, a lot of the errors, uh, are [01:47:35] based on those sorts of things. I’m lucky again, [01:47:40] enough at Guy’s Guy’s Hospital, specifically where I work, I look after [01:47:45] the aural rehabilitation of oral cancer patients. So that’s the other thing I do. And again, that [01:47:50] is an incredible privilege to look after these patients. They’re incredibly complex, as you [01:47:55] can imagine, you know, and over the 25 years I’ve been doing it, I’ve seen you’ve [01:48:00] moved away from doing the big obturators, you know, to now, because the surgeons [01:48:05] are so clever and with the radiotherapy that they actually conserve tissue, they’re more minimally [01:48:10] invasive.

Avijit Banerjee: And they, they, they take flaps from different parts of the body and reconstruct [01:48:15] incredibly well and put implants in. So now a lot of my work is implant retained [01:48:20] dentures and bridges and things like this. But in patients who can only open maybe ten millimetres [01:48:25] or things like that. Yeah. And the patients come to me and we sit down [01:48:30] and I’m incredibly honest with them and just say, do you know what I’m learning? Yeah, [01:48:35] I’m a professor, but there’s no textbook about treating you. There’s [01:48:40] no protocol. So I’m going to go back to basics and do each stage as well as I can. [01:48:45] We’ll probably take two steps forward, one step back, two steps forward, one step back. [01:48:50] And you’re going to come with me on this journey. First. When I was younger. I didn’t [01:48:55] explain it like that. Patients used to get very upset. These were complex cases. I mean, you’re talking [01:49:00] 30 visits. Yeah. To treat a patient. And I don’t mean wasted visits. [01:49:05] I mean really intense.

Payman Langroudi: I worked on one of those clinics.

Avijit Banerjee: So, you see, you know what I’m talking about.

Payman Langroudi: Every case is completely, [01:49:10] absolutely.

Avijit Banerjee: And you really have to think outside the box. And when you’re a junior, that’s tough. Yeah, that’s [01:49:15] really, really tough. And I’ve had cases where, um, I was treating [01:49:20] a patient, they had some incredible mechano inside their mouth. The implant guys had gone [01:49:25] to town. Incredible amounts of mechano and cross-bracing and zygomatic [01:49:30] implants and all sorts. And I was trying to and it was for an obturator, and I was trying to take an impression and [01:49:35] it got jammed. Oh, and I was there for like three hours with the consultant [01:49:40] and the poor patient, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of like emperor gum stuff.

Avijit Banerjee: Basically. [01:49:45] Yes. And it just got locked in and it was horrific. It was horrific. I was practically in tears. [01:49:50] I’m not denying it because you just don’t know what to do.

Payman Langroudi: How was the patient?

Avijit Banerjee: Patient was [01:49:55] actually surprisingly calm because they could see it wasn’t negligence. It wasn’t stupidity. [01:50:00] You know, it was something that happens. And I think it potentially had happened before as well. [01:50:05] They were being very stoical about it. So things like that can happen. And and I [01:50:10] know that’s not quite what you’re getting at but, but I think you also and when [01:50:15] I learned I was in that position and that that role has been reversed when I’m the consultant and a junior staff, that’s [01:50:20] happening to what.

Payman Langroudi: Happened with the perio case. So he put in a complaint.

Avijit Banerjee: Yeah. And what happened? And you know what? I had [01:50:25] a really good principal at the practice because this is in private practice who sat down with the patient, talked [01:50:30] to the patient first and then called me in and we had a chat, a three way chat and, and basically [01:50:35] dealt with it and did not let it brew. That’s okay. No, no. In the end, fortunately [01:50:40] she got a.

Payman Langroudi: Worse situation than that.

Avijit Banerjee: One. Do you know what? I [01:50:45] don’t want to tempt fate because if I say I haven’t, then something’s going to happen now, isn’t it? But I suppose [01:50:50] I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not. You’re not practising. No, I’m.

Avijit Banerjee: Not, because I do such a different. My [01:50:55] job is is so different. I’m not seeing patients every day, doing clinics every day. If [01:51:00] I was, I’d have plenty more.

Payman Langroudi: Any errors with other students? Teaching, kicking [01:51:05] someone out, not kicking someone out. Something like this, anything like that.

Avijit Banerjee: Well, [01:51:10] you just want to really dig up dirt now. Gosh, students make errors. They’ll make clinical errors that you have [01:51:15] to deal with. But I’d like to. I lost my rag a few times. I’m not going to deny it. You know, in [01:51:20] my not not with patients. Yes. Not with patients.

Payman Langroudi: I came across some of your students actually, and [01:51:25] they were saying, yeah, Prof. Banerjee is really strict. Yeah. I was saying having such a soft he’s not [01:51:30] strict at all. But all of them. Yeah. No, it’s a reputation.

Avijit Banerjee: It’s a reputation.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re [01:51:35] a strict guy.

Avijit Banerjee: As a teacher I am, but it is. And in front of patients can’t see you being strict. [01:51:40] No. Because. Do you know why? There’s a very simple reason. It’s upbringing. [01:51:45] It was the upbringing I had. And I don’t, you know, from my own parents. And it was the upbringing [01:51:50] I had from my own professors and consultants when I was a student. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, [01:51:55] but that’s how it’s coloured what I do.

Payman Langroudi: You know, we always start this pod with, where were you born? [01:52:00]

Avijit Banerjee: I was actually born in, I was born in Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia, but came to the UK when I was a baby. [01:52:05] Really? Um, but of my upbringing was quite strict, very loving, very, [01:52:10] you know, no problem. But it was strict. So yes, I am a bit. And I am with my children. I am with everybody. [01:52:15] Are you? Unfortunately, yeah. You can ask my kids. If they were here, they’d be nodding away like fury. So [01:52:20] yeah, the students know that. And in front of patients I will be very particular with them. Obviously [01:52:25] not rude, not anything bad or nasty, but you can see [01:52:30] them starting to bristle and starting to panic because, you know, they get themselves tongue [01:52:35] tied. And then I because my argument is, you know the answer. I’m not asking [01:52:40] something you don’t know. I know you know the answer. And I’m going to get it out of you. And we’re going to do it nicely because [01:52:45] there’s a patient there and everything else, and we get it. We have a three way discussion and it ultimately works. [01:52:50] They come out with it and suddenly the penny drops and everything’s cool.

Avijit Banerjee: If we’re in a seminar [01:52:55] or a, you know, non clinical situation. Oh yeah. Then you know [01:53:00] I’m tough on it because I want them to learn. You know that’s my point. And and [01:53:05] not being funny I remember who I was taught by when I was at guy’s when I was in their shoes. And you didn’t [01:53:10] at the time realise the great and the good who were teaching you. And I’m not suggesting I’m at that level [01:53:15] at all. But I always joke to them, you know, you’re [01:53:20] not taking full advantage. I’m right in front of you. When you graduate, you’ll be paying cold, hard [01:53:25] cash to go to lectures of mine, and I’ll be saying the same thing. So you’ve got me. You’ve got you’ve [01:53:30] got me here right now, you know, use me, you know. Good point and tap, you know, [01:53:35] provoke me, get me interested, get me thinking, and you’ll get even more out of it. Because [01:53:40] I don’t believe there’s teaching to a level I don’t teach to BDS or to Masters or to this [01:53:45] I teach.

Payman Langroudi: So when someone’s doing a specialising [01:53:50] in fixed cross. What happens. You start all over again from the beginning. [01:53:55] Is that how the course works?

Avijit Banerjee: No. Not necessarily. The candidates come in. [01:54:00] Obviously they need to have a base level of knowledge, which is why I made the comment about being doing some general practice [01:54:05] and things is quite important. Um, so they’ve got to come in with base levels of knowledge. Absolutely. [01:54:10] And there is assumed knowledge and they are actually tested. So they do sort of clinical skills tests [01:54:15] on, on, on, you know, phantom head, as we used to call it, just to make sure basic operative skills [01:54:20] are there obviously for obvious reasons. And then because the level of supervision isn’t necessarily [01:54:25] going to be the same as an undergrad, and then it develops in terms of care planning and case [01:54:30] scenarios and everything else. And the specialist trainees I have are usually on my [01:54:35] outpatient new patient clinic. So it’s more for care planning. Mhm. Because [01:54:40] we get a range everything from oral cancer through to tooth wear through to you name it. [01:54:45] Basically what’s referred in and what they’ve got to do is not just [01:54:50] assume because they can see a space for missing tooth or what size implant can I get [01:54:55] in there? But think about everything and plan it properly. And is that the right answer? And [01:55:00] that’s what I’m trying to teach them. They have obviously huge other clinics and and [01:55:05] treatment sessions and things to learn hone their operative skills. I my [01:55:10] role is more the that general care planning aspect.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:55:15] how much training are the hospitals under as far as the number of referrals coming [01:55:20] in and you know capacity to take them?

Avijit Banerjee: The pre-COVID, there was a huge strain. [01:55:25] Covid came along, changed a lot of things in terms of what’s being referred, how they’re being referred and [01:55:30] everything else. I am not 100% okay with all the data [01:55:35] guys, so I can’t give you absolute numbers, but I was aware, I think now the numbers are starting [01:55:40] to come back to pre-COVID levels of referrals. Different things are coming in, different types [01:55:45] of patients are coming in. We’re getting patients with a huge amount more disease clearly [01:55:50] than ever before because people can’t find a dentist outside, for example. You know, [01:55:55] there have been issues, as you’ve been hearing on the news about oral cancer diagnosis and things like this. [01:56:00] So those clinics are pretty full. But again, I’m guesstimating here, so [01:56:05] I don’t know. I don’t want to give figures because I don’t know them and I don’t want to mislead, but I know [01:56:10] the management team from the trust side are working overtime to try to to [01:56:15] maximise patient throughput and the efficiency.

Payman Langroudi: We’re coming to the end of our time. There’s one other [01:56:20] burning question I’ve got. Yeah. Is that when was the last time when you saw something, [01:56:25] a bit of research, a piece of equipment, something that made you think, wow, like [01:56:30] a like a, like a moment of that’s that’s something that’s going to change the world.

Avijit Banerjee: So [01:56:35] I was again, this is now 2017 or 2018. [01:56:40] And I was invited to an oral health council run by 3 a.m., [01:56:45] as it was then known as solvent Am now Oral care. But it was 3 a.m. then, and I was one of their [01:56:50] sort of key opinion leaders. They invited about a dozen of us from around the planet to the States, [01:56:55] and they were asking our opinions about all sorts of things, and [01:57:00] they asked us to produce two PowerPoint slides, one about [01:57:05] what the current trends are in dentistry and the big things. Just one PowerPoint slide [01:57:10] and then another one for what’s going to happen in ten years time. And this was 20 1718. [01:57:15] Yeah. And in my ten years time, one, I was wanting and predicting [01:57:20] that we just like we have, as I mentioned, the smartwatches that are taking your heart rate [01:57:25] and all your bodily functions and everything. Why couldn’t we have something for the mouth? So [01:57:30] why can’t we have an Intraoral sensor that then goes to your watch or your app on your phone [01:57:35] that’s telling you the pH, the bacterial balance, the flow rate, all this sort of stuff because [01:57:40] then it enhances awareness.

Avijit Banerjee: I’m not saying it will totally change dentistry, [01:57:45] but it enhances awareness. And remember, we’ve just been talking about getting the message out to the public. Yeah, just [01:57:50] like you do your steps, you know, and all this sort of stuff. So I mentioned this at the beginning [01:57:55] and the, the chief of the of three oral care at the time was [01:58:00] asking me questions specifically at the end of the three day meeting, two and a half day meeting, [01:58:05] they then presented what they were doing, and there was talk about they already had the prototype [01:58:10] for an Intraoral sensor. And I thought something that you can literally bond on with some adhesive bonding [01:58:15] agent onto the lingual surface of the molar or something and would give you these readouts. And [01:58:20] I was thinking, wow, because it goes back to all the things we’ve covered behaviour [01:58:25] change, motivation. You know that that the longitudinal analysis of what’s [01:58:30] going on and that is ultimately what prevention will be, in my opinion. And [01:58:35] that’s where I think we need to move forward to.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. It’s such a pleasure to have you. [01:58:40] Are you going to be at the dentistry show?

Avijit Banerjee: Unfortunately not. Not. Unfortunately not.

Payman Langroudi: No [01:58:45] shame. I was going to. We’re having a bit of a do on our stand and no.

Avijit Banerjee: I know I [01:58:50] this time, this one I’m not. But.

Payman Langroudi: Q2 listeners 4:00 4:00, and our stand [01:58:55] on on both days. Okay. Good drinks. Um, our final question is always the same. Okay. [01:59:00] Fantasy dinner party. Right? Three guests, dead [01:59:05] or alive. Who would you like?

Avijit Banerjee: Wow. Okay, now, I could try to be all cerebral and [01:59:10] pick three philosophers from, you know, so well, you know, but I’m not, um, [01:59:15] I am, uh, Liverpool Football Club follower and have been since [01:59:20] probably 1977. I say follower. I haven’t gone to a huge number of games, but followed [01:59:25] them religiously. And so to be honest with you, my hero at the moment is is [01:59:30] JK Jurgen Klopp. Klopp of course as a motivational inspirational [01:59:35] person, how what he’s done, I mean we need him in public sector. [01:59:40]

Payman Langroudi: The study were two best friends of Liverpool fans and they said no. They said this exact [01:59:45] same thing. Klopp should be the Prime Minister.

Avijit Banerjee: But I’m joking aside, we’ve we’ve you know, in [01:59:50] public health, in public sector, not just in healthcare but policing, education. You need people like [01:59:55] him to motivate and get get everything running again. You know. And I think he’d be quite an interesting character [02:00:00] I think. So that’s one person. So that’s that one. Then I was thinking [02:00:05] again, I could try be clever, but I’m not going to be. I was going to say Steven Spielberg, [02:00:10] because the stories he could tell about all the people he’s worked with over the [02:00:15] years in Hollywood and how he’s developed his movies and all that sort of stuff. Again, [02:00:20] there’s science behind it. There’s all the social aspect. I think it’d be quite [02:00:25] an interesting talk, an interesting conversation could be had there, you know, and he’s hopefully spill the beans [02:00:30] with enough, enough alcohol and then going scientific I thought I have to go somebody [02:00:35] scientific. Um, I would probably go with I know he’s obviously [02:00:40] not here now, but you said dead or alive would be, uh, Stephen Hawking. Oh, Professor Hawking, because, [02:00:45] again, just to be able to talk to him about his life [02:00:50] and how I know we’ve all watched the Hollywood movie and everything else, but that’s just a, [02:00:55] you know, narrative. Yeah, exactly. It’s a narrative. And I, you know, the [02:01:00] guy literally had a brain the size of a planet or a black hole, all right. And it would be just incredible [02:01:05] to tap into that. And having read several of his books that he wrote for the lay public, he [02:01:10] had the skill and I know he had helped writing it, but he had the skill to translate such [02:01:15] complex science. Yeah, no one can understand, let’s be honest, unless you’re everyone. [02:01:20]

Payman Langroudi: Was reading those.

Avijit Banerjee: Books and people could lay people could understand. And again, to me, it goes back [02:01:25] to what we said at the beginning. You know, if you’re going to do research, you’re going to push the boundaries. It’s all well [02:01:30] and good doing all of that. But you’ve got to be able to translate it to the real person in the street. And whether that’s [02:01:35] clinical, whether that’s explanation and understanding. And I think [02:01:40] it is interesting in the world we live in now, when you watch TV programs and these books, there’s more and more, [02:01:45] you know, the Brighton professor, Brian Cox’s of this world, that type of thing, who are translating what [02:01:50] is incredible science into something that’s understandable and tangible. [02:01:55] Yeah, yeah. But I think Stephen Hawking was the grand master in [02:02:00] the modern era, obviously.

Payman Langroudi: In the in the same vein, who, who, who would you say in your field? I mean, [02:02:05] who were your who who are exceptional brains and. That [02:02:10] you’ve come across what comes to mind?

Avijit Banerjee: Living then currently you mean [02:02:15] alive or just generally?

Payman Langroudi: You’ve come across so many.

Avijit Banerjee: I know, and. But I’m going to be. Yeah. [02:02:20] I’m going to give you the standard answer here. And it’s going to be the gurus I grew up with because they were the ones who [02:02:25] affected me the most. And that’s your question, isn’t it? Yeah, obviously there are people I’m working with now who are absolutely [02:02:30] amazing. Yeah. And what they will do will have a huge impact. But it’s in [02:02:35] the future. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. You know, I look there was a wonderful article [02:02:40] in just the last BJ on on Bernard Smith. Yeah PG and Smith. Right guys [02:02:45] who’s a professor of restorative at Guy’s prosthodontics. And again absolute.

Payman Langroudi: Legend. Did [02:02:50] he write the first version.

Avijit Banerjee: He did absolutely. He wrote the first few versions of Picard’s. Absolutely. [02:02:55] And he was one of my teachers and became a friend, you know, again, dare [02:03:00] I say Professor Edwina kid is. And again, who’s who’s not. I wouldn’t say shoes, I thought, because that would [02:03:05] be very arrogant. Not at all. But again, who instilled a lot of [02:03:10] who I am professionally in terms of the investigation being really precise [02:03:15] and intricate with everything. So there are lots of people like that. [02:03:20] And I picked out two. And that’s a bit unfair because there are there are plenty of others and [02:03:25] they did make me who I am. There’s no debate about it in [02:03:30] the modern day. We’ve talked about Professor Shannon Wilson again as a mentor [02:03:35] later on in my life, and the advice and the career he’s had that is somebody, [02:03:40] again, I feel personally is inspirational. Really. Yes. You know that again, I [02:03:45] everybody’s each their own and whatever. But you don’t get to that level in your profession without having something. [02:03:50] And I and you know he’s another mentor and there’s [02:03:55] few others. There’s a few others, uh, Professor Ian Chappell at Birmingham, all these guys [02:04:00] and and a close friend, now my third mentor. I’ve always I’ve always said, this is why I’m saying [02:04:05] it publicly is Steven Hancox at the BJJ. He known him for 20 years. Different, [02:04:10] different angle on life. Yeah. But somebody who just gives [02:04:15] just such sage advice and and is you just learn so [02:04:20] much from not just about dentistry, but about life and about being a better person. I feel that.

Payman Langroudi: Way about [02:04:25] the late, great Louis Mackenzie. Yeah, there we go. He was never a teacher of mine. Yeah, [02:04:30] but. But I learned so much from that man.

Avijit Banerjee: Yeah. No. Yeah. Well, already I [02:04:35] don’t want to. I don’t want to get upset. Um, it’s still obviously incredibly raw. What happened? I [02:04:40] had the pleasure of knowing him for nearly 20 years, and we worked together. We wrote papers [02:04:45] together, we lectured together, and we had so many good times teaching, having fun, [02:04:50] you know, you know that you were part of that. The guy touched [02:04:55] so many people professionally and personally and socially. Yeah, [02:05:00] he had his humour, his wit, his acerbic wit. I used to love [02:05:05] when he had a few, many, too many to drink and his, his South African accent came out [02:05:10] and, you know, it was just priceless. And he was the life and soul and I what’s [02:05:15] happened? I can’t begin to feel [02:05:20] for his his children, his wife Jilly and what they’ve gone through, what they’re going through. [02:05:25] Um, but I’ve said to them directly that Louis will live on his [02:05:30] pictures are in that book. Um, I use his images fully [02:05:35] credited, obviously, in lectures with. And I had his permission before he.

Payman Langroudi: And [02:05:40] he came from such a, you know, you you’ve been in academia, academia from the beginning. Louis came from private general [02:05:45] practice.

Avijit Banerjee: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And yet got himself involved.

Avijit Banerjee: In he did because he [02:05:50] was a smart man. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t like saying was I’m going to say is I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry, clever [02:05:55] guy.

Avijit Banerjee: Because smart in so many different ways. Because I remember when we were introduced, I was lecturing, he [02:06:00] was in the audience, and we were introduced because he came over and said, do you know what? [02:06:05] I’m doing all this me stuff and I’ve got all these pictures, and you know how a fabulous [02:06:10] clinician he was and the images and the pictures, he took his clinical pictures. What a library, you know. And [02:06:15] we were put together to lecture where I was doing the clinical academic bit. And then he was [02:06:20] this is how you do it. And wowzers, we we went around the country in Europe for probably [02:06:25] a decade, 12 years. Wow. And it was just.

Payman Langroudi: The you must have.

Avijit Banerjee: Had the best times. [02:06:30] It was the best lecturing with him, but also, [02:06:35] dare I say, partying with him and being with him because I he was [02:06:40] like a brother and that’s how I saw him. To me, I he’s affected so many people in so many different ways. [02:06:45] You know.

Payman Langroudi: When I wrote the we put we put the podcast out again and I was writing [02:06:50] the obituary, the thing that got me this 11 times the best man, [02:06:55] 11 times the best man. There you go. You know, that speaks volumes.

Avijit Banerjee: It speaks [02:07:00] volumes. And this is the point. I mean, he you know, he didn’t really have a bad [02:07:05] word to say about anybody. If he didn’t like something, he’d joke it off. He’d never. Be nasty. Yeah. [02:07:10] You know, um, students love them. Undergrads. Post-grads. Uh, people went to his lectures, [02:07:15] loved him. Family friend. You know, it’s just such. [02:07:20] I mean, we used the word tragedy a lot in the world nowadays, right? This [02:07:25] is the absolute dictionary definition of tragedy on [02:07:30] so many levels, on so many levels. And I don’t know what else to say, because [02:07:35] the effect he’s had on me is huge. And it will live on in the books, in [02:07:40] lectures and all of this sort of stuff that I promise, as long as I’m doing that stuff, his name will live [02:07:45] on 200%.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to our final question. [02:07:50] It’s a deathbed question.

Avijit Banerjee: Oh, gosh.

Payman Langroudi: You’re on your deathbed, [02:07:55] surrounded by your friends and family. Anyone who’s important to you will hopefully, by that [02:08:00] time, grandchildren and great grandchildren. One of three pieces of advice you would give [02:08:05] them.

Avijit Banerjee: Wow. Okay. Um, considering, [02:08:10] um. About. I’m not quite a baby boomer. I’m Gen x, x [02:08:15] Gen X, just Gen X, and these people will be Gen Z and [02:08:20] Gen Alpha. Yeah. Exactly right. And their outlook on life will be very different. [02:08:25] And I’ve all right. Not deathbed conversations, but I’ve already had some similar conversations [02:08:30] with my children. It’s an interesting point. My children are grown up now. First thing I’ll probably [02:08:35] say to them is don’t regret decisions you make. Right [02:08:40] now. Not because I have. Because that’s not what I mean. But I think the world [02:08:45] they’re living in, they’re going to have so many decisions they’re going to have to make. They can’t always be right and wrong. Don’t judge [02:08:50] them on being right and wrong.

Payman Langroudi: Does that mean does that mean don’t look back?

Avijit Banerjee: No. [02:08:55]

Payman Langroudi: It’s what if the decisions were wrong.

Avijit Banerjee: Yeah, but they’ll learn from them. But my point being, don’t regret them. [02:09:00] Even if it’s a wrong decision. Don’t regret it. Don’t regret it. That’s my point. That’s exactly [02:09:05] my point. We can always look at the positive decisions and things that work. That’s easy. Life is easy. Then, as [02:09:10] you said earlier, we’re talking about mistakes. It’s the negative things that make us stronger, isn’t it? Right. And [02:09:15] we’ve all made decisions in our lives. Some right, some wrong, some intermediate. Okay, [02:09:20] fabulous. They’re going to have to make even more in the world they live in and the society [02:09:25] we live in it. So don’t dwell on it. Make decisions, go for it and don’t [02:09:30] regret them. All right. That’s point one then I think [02:09:35] linked to that I suppose it’s it’s take opportunities. Now [02:09:40] this is something I have discussed with my children a lot because I’ve stayed at guys and at Kings [02:09:45] pretty much all my life, uh, professionally. Right. And it’s certainly [02:09:50] not done me any harm. I’m not saying that, but I’ve not been to other places to work and and [02:09:55] gain those experience, those life experiences. And there’s always yin and yang. There’s always [02:10:00] positives and negatives from this. Yeah. Now they’re growing up in a world where again, opportunities are going to be [02:10:05] thrown at them left, right and centre. And yes, it does link a bit, as I said to my first point, [02:10:10] but don’t be frightened to take opportunities and grasp them.

Avijit Banerjee: And then the third [02:10:15] bit of advice again links. Sorry then they’re not totally all separate is enjoy it. Go [02:10:20] in head first, feet first. Immerse yourself. Don’t try to do [02:10:25] something half heartedly and then come away thinking I didn’t like it. Do it properly and [02:10:30] then come away with a judgement. And it’s funny because I’ve witnessed this a lot [02:10:35] and we’ve been talking about research a lot, obviously, because that’s what I do. And and one of the things I [02:10:40] say to students when they’re dabbling and thinking, shall I try do some research? [02:10:45] It’s what happened to me, I tell you. My first research project was I was in in the third year at dental school. [02:10:50] Yeah, right. And I did it. And I persevered in the middle of exams and staying in labs late and everything else. [02:10:55] You have to immerse yourself and do it, at the end of which you can then make [02:11:00] a proper judgement call. I love it, I’m not bothered or I hate it, but [02:11:05] if you just dip your toe in. Yeah, how can you make that judgement call? Yeah, do [02:11:10] you know what I mean? Yeah. So that’s what I would say. I would say, you know, don’t [02:11:15] regret, take opportunities, don’t regret them and immerse yourself in one massive.

Payman Langroudi: Point, isn’t.

Avijit Banerjee: It [02:11:20] though I like to be.

Payman Langroudi: A goody.

Avijit Banerjee: Goody. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I [02:11:25] mean, you know, we all have different situations. Some people will give their right arm to be you, some [02:11:30] people give their left arm to be me or whatever. We all know life is a bitch. Life’s hard. Yeah. [02:11:35] Um, how do you. How do you stay happy? What’s. What do you class as happiness. [02:11:40]

Avijit Banerjee: Wow. I do like being with my family. I love being with friends. Genuinely. [02:11:45] I, you know, we my we socialise a great deal. And I love people’s company. [02:11:50] I I’m not I don’t like being on my own very much. I’ll admit that I love travelling. [02:11:55] So it’s those sorts of things at the moment. And the problem is that we were [02:12:00] joking about my CV at the beginning and, and there’s a lot being crammed in and there [02:12:05] isn’t a massive amount of time. I’m not somebody who has amazing hobbies. I have so many colleagues that do it. I’m jealous, [02:12:10] very, very envious. And and hopefully one day, you know, when I do retire and ease [02:12:15] back, I can take up some of these things and try to do them. But at the moment [02:12:20] I get a buzz from being with people, you know, socialising, [02:12:25] talking, eating, drinking, travelling, those things because I can still do them [02:12:30] and when I’m not fit enough to do them, then I’ll find something else. I, you know, it’s, [02:12:35] it’s I’ve had this question asked me many, many, many times and I, [02:12:40] I’m not the greatest in the, in the, in the sense of switching off. You know, [02:12:45] when you send me emails, you’ll get a reply. It doesn’t matter what time, day or night. Yeah, yeah, you’ll get a reply [02:12:50] pretty much immediately. And that’s not healthy and I’m not proud of that. But then at the same time, I’m [02:12:55] sort of known for it and it’s what I do.

Payman Langroudi: Your biggest strength is always your biggest weakness as well. You know, it’s one [02:13:00] of those things, isn’t it? One of those things, isn’t it? Final, final question. How would you like to be remembered?

Avijit Banerjee: Wow. [02:13:05] Um. Somebody. You made a difference, [02:13:10] and I’m going to leave it at that because that you can take the connotation, whether it’s personal or professional, [02:13:15] whatever, somebody you made a difference or at least tried to make a difference, try to make a difference. [02:13:20]

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Prof. Thank you so much. Thanks particularly for coming [02:13:25] in as well. It’s my pleasure, a real honour.

Avijit Banerjee: My pleasure. Thank you.

[VOICE]: This [02:13:30] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one [02:13:35] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [02:13:40] hosts. Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [02:13:45] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And [02:13:50] just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to [02:13:55] say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If [02:14:00] you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share [02:14:05] this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so so much for listening. Thanks. [02:14:10]

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Simon Chard: I was listening to a podcast on the way here. Actually, it was Gordon Ramsay on High Performance and he was saying, you [00:00:05] need to learn not to avoid the storms, but just to dance in the rain. And I think that is basically [00:00:10] just running businesses. Being an entrepreneur, you’ve got to get used [00:00:15] to being in the firing line, putting fires out day in, day out. That [00:00:20] is basically the job.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:30] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:00:35] Your hosts Payman [00:00:40] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to [00:00:45] welcome Simon Chard back onto the podcast. Simon was a guest [00:00:50] number four. So really? Yeah, it looked it up in 2019. [00:00:55] Wow. And then we had an episode from the BCD conference. Not this [00:01:00] year, but the one before, which was episode 164163. Maybe [00:01:05] for anyone who wants to look at that. Simon, the reason I’m saying all this is I kind of don’t want to go [00:01:10] over the same ground, the, you know, origin story and all of that, because people can listen to that on the [00:01:15] previous ones. I do remember having in my head the idea [00:01:20] that I would like to have this guy back on in 4 or 5 years, time to see what has [00:01:25] become of him. And of course, I knew you for a good six, seven years before the last [00:01:30] episode, but, um, incredibly busy guy. Simon is a principal of [00:01:35] a large dental practice. He has two kids, two [00:01:40] young kids, which, when I think back to that time in my life, probably the most stressful [00:01:45] part of life new business, new house, new kids, just just just a lot going on. [00:01:50]

Simon Chard: Another one on the way as well.

Payman Langroudi: Another one on the way as well. Well done. I [00:01:55] found a co-founder of Parlo, which is a sustainable oral care brand [00:02:00] and uh, just finished being president of the [00:02:05] BCD lecturer. You do a lot, dude. Probably [00:02:10] too much. Yeah, yeah. Well, I was kind of let’s [00:02:15] start with, you know, when someone looks at your persona, I can imagine people [00:02:20] thinking, this guy’s just so happy. Let’s start with struggles. What [00:02:25] are you what are you struggling with right now? Like, you know, what’s a current struggle?

Simon Chard: Well, I’m [00:02:30] always struggling, to be honest. I mean, I was listening to a podcast on the way here. Actually, it was Gordon [00:02:35] Ramsay on High Performance, and he was saying, you need to learn not to avoid the storms, but just to dance [00:02:40] in the rain. And I think that is basically just running businesses. [00:02:45] Being an entrepreneur, you’ve got to get used to being in the firing [00:02:50] line, putting fires out day in, day out. That is that is basically the job. [00:02:55] And most of the time it works okay. I’m pretty militant with [00:03:00] how I’ve optimised my life for productivity and efficiency and [00:03:05] success, but you can’t predict what’s around the corner, and oftentimes [00:03:10] things will all crash together at the same time. And with the way in which my [00:03:15] life is structured, in that I have multiple different businesses still working clinically three [00:03:20] days a week, like we were talking before we started rolling. I might be in with a four hour [00:03:25] implant patient, and then a major emergency happens with parlour. That needs my immediate [00:03:30] attention, or there’s something going on in the practice at the same time as something with the bacd. So [00:03:35] there’s always things that crash together simultaneously. I’m very fortunate that Megan, [00:03:40] my wife and co-owner of Rosie Lodge with me is, um, is [00:03:45] a very solid rock. I think we’re very much yin and yang, uh, yin [00:03:50] and yang with regards to she’s sort of stable, emotionally [00:03:55] operationally minded. I’m much more sort of up and down and, uh. [00:04:00] Creative, lofty ideas rather than operationally minded. [00:04:05] So that definitely helps. But yeah, I mean, it’s an ongoing struggle. I mean, I’ve talked openly about my my own [00:04:10] issues with anxiety and, and those sorts of things in the past. And [00:04:15] it’s something that I’ve worked really hard on personally through [00:04:20] exercise, through meditation, through therapy, to stabilise [00:04:25] my emotional variation. I think, um, and largely it’s really, really helped. [00:04:30] Sometimes we still have our struggles, but that’s just life, I think.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:04:35] didn’t want to talk about it.

[Both]: I was [00:04:40] up close. I’m a I’m a closed book.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you know, look to practically, [00:04:45] practically what’s what’s bothering you in the practice? What’s bothering you at Hala? What’s [00:04:50] bothering you in the teaching world? You know, you were on TV today. Yeah, I saw [00:04:55] that. Yeah. And so what you’ve kind of described is the juggle is is juggle is.

Simon Chard: The ongoing [00:05:00] is the ongoing struggle. I mean, if you want specifics of the individual businesses, [00:05:05] the price of everything has gone up. Staffing has been an ongoing [00:05:10] challenge since the pandemic. This is mainly with parlour. And so [00:05:15] this is mainly with the practice. So those those are challenges. I think that all [00:05:20] business owners and practice owners have been struggling with, uh, otherwise the practice [00:05:25] is pretty solid. We had a larger NHS contract. Um, I’ve not worked in the NHS [00:05:30] personally for since 2017, but, um, we’ve, we’ve reduced that contract [00:05:35] down. Um, and we’re in that sort of transitional period at the moment. So [00:05:40] that’s been has had its, had its challenges certainly. And the practice my parents [00:05:45] owned it before me. They owned it for uh well they bought it six months before I was born. We [00:05:50] bought it from them in 2017. So making big changes like that when a lot of those patients have [00:05:55] been there since before I was, was born, it’s a difficult decision to make and not one that we took lightly, but [00:06:00] we want to continue to strive for excellence in the practice, and the [00:06:05] NHS system doesn’t allow for that really. So that’s been a challenge there. With regards to [00:06:10] parlour, I mean, performance marketing has got harder and harder over the last few years. [00:06:15] I’m sure you are fully aware of that. More and more.

Payman Langroudi: Expensive.

Simon Chard: Much more expensive, much less predictable. [00:06:20] Roas, uh, return on ad spend, um, customer acquisition costs, [00:06:25] um, all these things that we deal with our marketing agencies with on a daily basis have [00:06:30] all got got poorer in general, um, as a sort of a macroeconomic thing. [00:06:35] And yeah, we’ve got to continue to innovate, continue to improve. I mean, the [00:06:40] thing with parlour is there’s so many moving parts. Yeah. When it comes to actually having a physical good [00:06:45] that you need to transport around the country, around the world, making [00:06:50] sure that all those elements are in the right place at the right time. With retailers like Sainsbury’s [00:06:55] and Waitrose and Boots who are, uh, they give you like an hour slot, like they’re [00:07:00] militant with regard and they’ll, they’ll only give us sometimes a couple of days to get that order in.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:07:05] fine you if you don’t make it.

Simon Chard: In that fine. As if we don’t make it. Yeah. And um, and obviously you’re [00:07:10] always on, you’re always on tenterhooks to that. You don’t you don’t. They are very much [00:07:15] in control of that relationship. Do you know what I mean? You’re a small you’re a small fry in a big pond there. And so [00:07:20] you’re always trying to put your best foot forward. Things go wrong. People don’t act professionally. [00:07:25] All these sort of things, just part of part of doing business.

Payman Langroudi: But, um, I find in that [00:07:30] situation, in my world it would be, um, culprits. Mm. You’re sort of incentivised [00:07:35] to overpromise because you’re in a meeting with the with the top guy in [00:07:40] the corporate. He’s saying he wants to grow his business. You’re giving him assurances there. Yeah, but then [00:07:45] he’s got to deliver. Right. And this asymmetric relationship that you’re talking about, I know yours is [00:07:50] much more asymmetric than mine with one of the corporates. But this asymmetric situation [00:07:55] that you’re talking about, sometimes it means changing your whole business model to to make that [00:08:00] promise come true. Yeah. Um, if you [00:08:05] well, not not you. But if someone is thinking of starting a business and I’ve actually noticed, I [00:08:10] actually think parlour is the cause of many of the copycats. You know, like, maybe [00:08:15] your marketing was so strong at the beginning. And people, people feel like, uh, [00:08:20] when they do it.

Simon Chard: Too.

Payman Langroudi: Well, when they see something everywhere, they, they just think of that as success, [00:08:25] and success is a long game and all of that. Right? It’s a difficult thing. And so when [00:08:30] someone wants to start a new thing, what would be your advice to someone who’s got a [00:08:35] clever idea and they’re thinking B2C? What [00:08:40] surprised you about it?

Simon Chard: It’s really hard. Really, really hard. Like [00:08:45] so much harder than dentistry. Yeah. And even when you think you’ve made it, you’ve [00:08:50] not. I mean, I remember the day that we got the listing at boots, it was my birthday in like 2020. [00:08:55] And I remember running around my garden with my daughter thinking, we’ve made it like, [00:09:00] that’s it. Job done. Like, like like I’m basically [00:09:05] Zuckerberg. Like we’ve like, cracked the code. And, um, yeah, I mean, [00:09:10] it’s just it’s so not the case. So I think the best advice I could give is [00:09:15] really do your due diligence on is this a good idea [00:09:20] or is this a good business? Because there’s lots of good ideas, but [00:09:25] actually the nuance of it being a good business is very different. [00:09:30] And that comes down to simple things like for example. If you want [00:09:35] to set up a subscription business of some sort, does that product actually make sense as a subscription [00:09:40] product? Is it lightweight? Does it travel in the post well? [00:09:45] Is it stable? Does it have a long shelf life? All these sort of really boring questions [00:09:50] make such a difference to your, uh, your the way [00:09:55] in which you can, you can come to market and actually the long tum success of your business and [00:10:00] a lot of those things with Parler, we’ve, we’ve got quite lucky with I didn’t think about any of those things when I thought [00:10:05] about this. I just thought, I hate single use plastic. I want to do something about it. Let’s [00:10:10] do it. And I want to like, have a I want to build a Start-Up and build something cool. So [00:10:15] yeah, really, I think do your due diligence. And then the other best bit of advice I can give [00:10:20] is just really spend time and money on building a brand before [00:10:25] you launch. So we spent in the tens of thousands of pounds on creating [00:10:30] the brand that we created. And what I mean by that is the whole brand world, the typography up to the colourways, [00:10:35] to everything in between.

Payman Langroudi: Tone of voice.

Simon Chard: Yeah, exactly. And across [00:10:40] physical and digital in our case. And that was the best money we spent because that’s why [00:10:45] we have, I think, one of the coolest brands in in our space, in our category. [00:10:50] And if we hadn’t have done that again, I see loads of loads of copycat brands come out now [00:10:55] that haven’t spent that money and they’ve just sort of made it using an AI logo [00:11:00] generator or something like that. And it’s really obvious to to those that [00:11:05] actually work in this space. So spend the money on branding at the start is what I would advise.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:11:10] does that fit in with the sort of minimum viable product sort of testing the, [00:11:15] you know, the the theory in the first place? Like, is there a market [00:11:20] here? Yeah. Were you were you confident about that. Because the habit change [00:11:25] question is, you know, you I often think about it like [00:11:30] uh, religion almost. Right. You know, they teach a five year old God [00:11:35] and then when he’s 85, he still believes in God. And you know, that indoctrination at [00:11:40] an early age with toothbrushes, like, sits everyone [00:11:45] from the day they were born every day. And the changing of that habit I [00:11:50] get obviously, if if the, you know, the results of the sort of environmental [00:11:55] benefits are, you know, logically, that’s that’s what that’s the way [00:12:00] you would think of it, that the environmental benefits will outweigh that. But, you [00:12:05] know, electric cars didn’t sell until they were better than real normal cars. [00:12:10] You know how much we want to save the planet sometimes. Do you struggle with this idea? [00:12:15] Must do. Right.

Simon Chard: Uh, yeah. But I, I believe that it can be better. [00:12:20] And it clearly is better for the thousands [00:12:25] of subscribers that we have and the thousands of customers that we have in the stores. [00:12:30] And so it resonates sufficiently for people. I’m never satisfied. [00:12:35] We’re always iterating and improving on all of the products. [00:12:40] And I think that’s kind of my view on the MVP is that I was I was familiar with the [00:12:45] MVP concept prior to launching Parler because I read four Hour Work [00:12:50] Week, I think is where I first became aware of it. Um, from Tim Ferriss and, um. Yeah, [00:12:55] I think I just didn’t listen to it. And we just we just we just went. [00:13:00] We just went for it. But I think you can do that. I think if you, if conceptually your mission [00:13:05] is, is is is true and true to yourself, then then you can [00:13:10] always iterate in the market, if you know what I mean. You don’t have to sort of launch something [00:13:15] and then pull back and then try something else. You can launch and then make it better, or improve [00:13:20] it or tweak it. Um, and that’s kind of the way I think we’ve worked it with Parler.

[Both]: Right [00:13:25] or wrong, there’s no right or wrong. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Especially at the beginning. Absolutely. Especially at the [00:13:30] beginning. But okay, so your advice would be to do your research and to [00:13:35] invest in brand.

[Both]: Yeah.

Simon Chard: Do your research on the nitty gritty details of [00:13:40] how does this work as a business?

Payman Langroudi: I’d say I’d say it might be your sort of zone [00:13:45] of genius. Right. Branding. You know, I’m sure you’ve got several [00:13:50] digital dentistry, your communication, let’s say communication very [00:13:55] strong on communication. Um, and I struggle with it sometimes. So I’m sure [00:14:00] it’s it’s kind of easier to get your people behind saving the planet than [00:14:05] to get your people behind white teeth. Then when you think about it and you know, you’re [00:14:10] in the teeth business yourself, when when you’re talking to some patient [00:14:15] who hasn’t been able to eat a steak for years, and now with your [00:14:20] implants, they can or they or, you know, as Laura Horton said to me, you know, the [00:14:25] idea that you’re, you know, your patient might fall in love, kiss someone, you know, you know, teeth, teeth can can [00:14:30] be emotional and important.

[Both]: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: So I used to struggle with this idea that, you know, [00:14:35] it’s very easy for Simon. He’s got this purpose built business, easy to get people behind [00:14:40] that investors, retailers. But with, with with a little bit of thinking. [00:14:45]

[Both]: Most white teeth.

Simon Chard: Can most.

[Both]: Purpose as well.

Payman Langroudi: Teeth are stuck to people, right. You [00:14:50] know, we’re very lucky we don’t sell bits of plastic for plumbing. You know, that’s a tall order.

[Both]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But again, [00:14:55] you know, stable homes and but what I’m saying is that the communication part is, [00:15:00] is really where you. I remember since even before you qualified, I [00:15:05] remember thinking this guy can walk, you know, okay, you were a mature student and all [00:15:10] of that. Did you find when you’re talking to your team about the practice [00:15:15] that, you know, have you improved now to the point that the practice is feeling the benefits [00:15:20] improved?

Simon Chard: In what.

Payman Langroudi: Way? As an operator.

Simon Chard: Um, [00:15:25] I certainly think I’ve improved as a communicator. I mean, and that’s been I always [00:15:30] say, I mean, when I was 18, I didn’t have I wasn’t a public speaker. I didn’t, [00:15:35] uh, feel confident speaking in front of a crowd. Uh, my mum had to [00:15:40] nurture me up to even give a speech at my 18th birthday party. And [00:15:45] it sort of come with time, I think. But I think whenever you speak with about things that you’re passionate [00:15:50] about, it comes naturally. I think I’m very lucky in that my mind [00:15:55] works in a, I think, quite a unique way, in that I’m constantly thinking [00:16:00] into the future and seeing how the various components all fit [00:16:05] together. I think I did that with digital dentistry. I think I’ve done that with Parler. [00:16:10] I think I’m always thinking about what what’s coming down the pike and [00:16:15] trying to position myself correctly to benefit from that or [00:16:20] create businesses around those areas. And I think it’s because I’m super [00:16:25] passionate about these topics. Like, I still geek out on Dental stuff. Like I’m still super [00:16:30] excited when I got my 3D printer. And and I love business. So I think [00:16:35] when you’re passionate about things, you it’s like naval Naval Ravikant says, right? That if you [00:16:40] if things that other people think are work you think of as play, [00:16:45] you’re always going to perform better than them because you can be [00:16:50] playing 24 over seven, whereas they’re thinking, oh, I can only work 9 to 5. [00:16:55] And so naturally you’re going to you’re going to outperform them. That’s kind of the way I think about dentistry and [00:17:00] business for me is that. I will listen to podcasts 24 over seven around [00:17:05] business and personal development and optimisation of my life. Not because [00:17:10] I feel like I need to, but because I want to. I get great joy from feeling [00:17:15] like I’m growing and developing.

Payman Langroudi: But what’s the driver behind wanting to always [00:17:20] grow and develop?

Simon Chard: Well, I mean, that’s a very deep question, but, um, I guess a [00:17:25] desire.

Payman Langroudi: Not everyone is like that.

Simon Chard: No, I know, and in some ways I’m jealous [00:17:30] of people sometimes that they don’t. They’re quite happy, just [00:17:35] as they are.

[Both]: Content, plodding.

Simon Chard: Along, contentment, peace in the [00:17:40] moment. And it’s something that I strive for myself is to, is to focus more on the present [00:17:45] moment and be more Eckhart Tolle and the power of now [00:17:50] and all that sort of thing, but I do. I’m always I’m always future focussed and, [00:17:55] um, I don’t think that’s always a good thing. It’s good. It’s good for business and it’s good for [00:18:00] personal development, and it’s good for, in inverted commas, success. But I, [00:18:05] um.

Payman Langroudi: So why? Why?

Simon Chard: Why, I think, [00:18:10] is because if you want me to really go deep on it. Um, my [00:18:15] sister had cancer when she was seven. I don’t know if I spoke about that before. And [00:18:20] so my mum, uh, or both my parents, but primarily my mum was up [00:18:25] in hospital with her for six months, solid. She lived at the hospital and my dad would go there [00:18:30] after work every day. And then my sister carried on and had 23 operations [00:18:35] throughout her childhood. So it was it was pretty, pretty significant cancer diagnosis, thankfully all [00:18:40] treated. And she survived and and now has two, two young kids of her own. But that [00:18:45] lack of parents in the sort of locality of my [00:18:50] home because they were busy.

[Both]: With their sister.

Simon Chard: Because they were looking after my sister, who could have quite easily died. [00:18:55] I think it led to a desire to to get attention, [00:19:00] I guess. Not that I feel like I do these things now to get attention, but always [00:19:05] to be doing the right thing, being as good as possible, just sort of [00:19:10] not being an inconvenience. And, uh, yeah, just being a people pleaser, [00:19:15] I think in general.

[Both]: Yeah.

Simon Chard: So I think that’s the root of it.

[Both]: I’ve done [00:19:20] plenty of it morphs.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

[Both]: It morphs. Yeah.

Simon Chard: And I think the really interesting thing is [00:19:25] when you, when you listen about studies around the reasoning behind behind action, [00:19:30] and they talk about the, the rat studies where they have either a piece of cheese in [00:19:35] front of them or the cat behind them, and the cat behind them always generates [00:19:40] more of a response than the cheese in front of them. Just scientifically, that’s an [00:19:45] animal model. And that that cat behind me, I think, drove me [00:19:50] for the first, I don’t know, five years of my career, but [00:19:55] I’ve done a lot of work on that personally, and I feel much stronger [00:20:00] in that now. And I’ve sort of leveraged it, and I feel like I have control of it in a way that now [00:20:05] I’m just I’ve seen success and I’ve enjoyed success. And [00:20:10] so that’s a bit of a, a cheese or a drug that I’m then [00:20:15] constantly always trying to get that next success, which is not necessarily [00:20:20] a better structure, but I think you need to try and.

[Both]: Find something.

Payman Langroudi: Pathway almost.

[Both]: Like.

Payman Langroudi: Cortisol [00:20:25] or.

[Both]: Dopamine or.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever, whatever.

[Both]: It is.

Simon Chard: So it’s um, yeah, as I say, I mean, I, I [00:20:30] think everyone is driven by something, but I try to be as cognisant of [00:20:35] the reasoning behind doing things, and I’ve certainly pulled back significantly [00:20:40] from saying yes to everything. It might seem like I’m always doing something, and [00:20:45] I mean, today is not a good example because I woke up at five to go to Sky news, went [00:20:50] to the practice, then came here. But in general you won’t see me often on the weekend [00:20:55] at conferences or lecturing on a Saturday or [00:21:00] out in the evening at Dental events, because my main [00:21:05] priority is to spend as much time with my kids as possible at this young [00:21:10] age. And I have my own sort of macro mission statement and purpose for life [00:21:15] in general. But that’s the underlying base of everything is spend [00:21:20] as much time with my kids when they’re in this incredible stage that they’re in right now, as I can do, because once it’s gone, [00:21:25] it’s gone. And it doesn’t matter how much money I make or how much success I get professionally, [00:21:30] you never get that back. And that’s, as you know, I’m sure is just one [00:21:35] of the best things in life.

[Both]: Well, I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Feeling on the other end now. You know, my wife told me last [00:21:40] week, we’ve got two more holidays left with my son. Yeah. Um, you know, he’s getting into A levels and [00:21:45] predictions and, you know, he’s getting busy. Yeah. And, um, [00:21:50] I suddenly felt it, you know, I suddenly felt, oh, my God, the holidays.

[Both]: That’s [00:21:55] true.

Payman Langroudi: But but it’s it makes me sad. And I was speaking [00:22:00] to Rob Moretti. Um, we were having this conversation. Best day of your life. Worst day of your life? [00:22:05] Have a have a think. And, uh, he said worst day of his life when his youngest kid [00:22:10] left the house. Really? And I wasn’t expecting him to say to say that, but but [00:22:15] now, now that the reality of that has hit me with my I’m more cognisant [00:22:20] of it with my 13 year old. So it makes sense what you’re doing makes sense. It does make sense.

[Both]: Yeah. [00:22:25]

Simon Chard: I’m just I’m trying to get ahead of that as much as I can do. Yeah, hopefully I’ve [00:22:30] got well.

[Both]: 17.

Simon Chard: Years.

[Both]: Any easier.

Payman Langroudi: Right. Not not it’s going to be any easier at [00:22:35] all. No when they go. But it’s a similar thing I, my parents are my dad’s 88. [00:22:40] I’m spending every moment I can with him and talking to a friend. You [00:22:45] know, a childish way of looking at it is before he passes away. But [00:22:50] at the older you get, you realise many people stay alive, but you can’t speak to them anymore. [00:22:55] There’s dementia, there’s. There’s just general, general forgetfulness and energy of age. [00:23:00] Yeah. And so you have to get ahead of that even, you know. So any time, you know, [00:23:05] my dad and my dad didn’t have deep political discussions. One day he might. He might still be in [00:23:10] the room but not want to do that anymore. You know, it’s that gratitude for what you have. Kind of.

[Both]: Yeah, [00:23:15] I.

Simon Chard: Just I just bought this wooden board which has.

[Both]: Um, every day [00:23:20] of.

Payman Langroudi: Your life. That one.

[Both]: Yes.

Simon Chard: Yeah. Well, it’s weeks. It’s the weeks of your life. [00:23:25]

[Both]: I almost bought it on tick tock.

Simon Chard: I can’t remember who the who. The author.

[Both]: Actually [00:23:30] got it, I.

Simon Chard: Bought it, yeah. It’s wooden. It’s it’s laser etched. And, um, I’m gonna put it in [00:23:35] my bathroom downstairs. But that, I think is a is a great reminder of [00:23:40] how fleeting life is and how fleeting. All the moments that you have with the people that you love is, [00:23:45] you know. And so the more I just can’t, I just feel like [00:23:50] people meander and wander through life with no real focus [00:23:55] on why or what, why they’re doing what they’re doing other than must make more money, must [00:24:00] make more money, or must be more successful. Um, or even just less than that. Just plain [00:24:05] autopilot. And I can’t recommend enough for people to actually think [00:24:10] about your mission statement. Think about your core values in life. Um, the best one [00:24:15] is the me as as a 100 year old looking back on my life, have you heard that one?

[Both]: That [00:24:20] that?

Payman Langroudi: Well, are you talking about the notion of in ten years time, I will dream of [00:24:25] being ten years younger?

Simon Chard: Yeah, but more.

[Both]: Extreme than that.

Simon Chard: So look, thinking about yourself, [00:24:30] thinking about your 100 year old self on your deathbed, looking back at your whole life. [00:24:35] And what are the five things that you wish you’d done, or [00:24:40] the five ways that you’d wish you’d turned up in your life? So like those deathbed regret ones, [00:24:45] but like personally for you so that you then live your life now [00:24:50] in a way that is thinking about yourself, then, um, [00:24:55] as opposed to it’s just a more, I think, complicated way of saying live for your eulogy, not your [00:25:00] CV, but, um, um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Money’s a funny one, isn’t it? Because I [00:25:05] can ask you. We can grab the next person walking down the street and say, does money buy happiness? [00:25:10] All of us will say, no, it doesn’t. Um, and yet all of us [00:25:15] want to find out for ourselves.

[Both]: Okay. Not not wanting to cook. [00:25:20]

Simon Chard: Not wanting to quote naval too much in this podcast.

[Both]: But he.

Simon Chard: Says, uh, getting rich [00:25:25] sells your money problems and then you can solve your other problems. But [00:25:30] yeah, they say, I mean, there’s that classic study, right? That up to $75,000, you have an increasing [00:25:35] like an exponential increase in happiness and then it plateaus off. I think they’ve they’ve [00:25:40] disproved that a little bit now. And certainly that was done in 2010 that study. So it’s [00:25:45] it’s with inflation it’ll be more now. Um, but it is I think it is true [00:25:50] to a large extent whether you’re, whether you got 49 million in the bank or 50 million in [00:25:55] the bank, it’s going to make zero difference to you. So no, no.

Payman Langroudi: But but listen to this. Like where it really like, you [00:26:00] remember the story you told me that what hits you between the eyes regarding Pala [00:26:05] was that every tube of toothpaste you’ve ever used is still somewhere on [00:26:10] the planet. And it’s a startling fact, isn’t it, that every single [00:26:15] tube of toothpaste, all those billions of people are using it still somewhere? Yeah, but a bit like [00:26:20] that. The the thought of what did you just say?

[Both]: Uh. And [00:26:25] it’s. Thank you. I’ve forgotten.

Simon Chard: That. Um. What [00:26:30] did I just say? I don’t remember, it’s beautiful. It was so profound that I’ve [00:26:35] forgotten.

[Both]: Um.

Simon Chard: Oh, the the increasing happiness, uh, with [00:26:40] increasing.

[Both]: Okay. Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Sorry. So, so the the the [00:26:45] thing that hit me between the eyes regarding money. Yeah. I’ve got this very rich friend. It’s his [00:26:50] dad. Gave him £12 million to buy a house. By the way, there’s four of them. £12 million each. [00:26:55] Wow. To buy a house. And dad said, you’ve got to buy a house. That was the one stipulation about it. And [00:27:00] this, this guy, he lives in, uh, Tehran. And so he came to London. He knows [00:27:05] London. He grew up with me in London. And he said, I can’t find a house. Just I cannot find [00:27:10] one. I like I said, what do you mean? And he said, you know what? At [00:27:15] 17, 18 million there’s loads of nice ones. But at 12 [00:27:20] it’s just it’s ridiculous. It’s just rubbish, you know, and you know, on his and then at the time I was [00:27:25] buying a house for 1.2 and the estate agent was telling me the exact same thing about 1.7. [00:27:30] Yeah. I was telling me how come everyone can see me in my garden? What the hell? And he’s like, well, if you could extend [00:27:35] to one point and you realise we all want just a bit more than we can have, yeah, you know that [00:27:40] that money struggle, struggle. And, you know, there’s there’s someone else on [00:27:45] the 12 to £17,000 situation in the Third world, and there’s someone else on a 120, [00:27:50] £170,000 story in, you know, Yorkshire or whatever. You know, it’s [00:27:55] it’s a common human thing. Regarding what what is your [00:28:00] driver? Robby said something nice about that. He said he said living up to my potential, [00:28:05] you know. Yeah. And that’s. A nice way of sort of thinking [00:28:10] of it. What you said is nice, but, you know, things like money.

[Both]: Just. [00:28:15]

Payman Langroudi: It’s just like you said, it’s not enough to keep you going through [00:28:20] the pain. No. The pain, you know, those those other things seem to be [00:28:25] more sort of inspirational. Keep you going. Yeah.

Simon Chard: Well, I mean, I think you need it. I mean, I’m [00:28:30] reading the, uh, the Daily Dad from Ryan Holiday at the moment. Have you read the Daily Stoic? [00:28:35] Yeah, yeah. So this is like the parenting version of that, and it’s, um. [00:28:40] Yeah. I think another good one is just to to be a great example for your kids is, is a [00:28:45] way to turn up in a good way every day in a very practical [00:28:50] way.

Payman Langroudi: But let’s talk about the teaching side. So [00:28:55] your year as president, what did they teach you about gigantic [00:29:00] academies?

Simon Chard: Hmm’hmm that you can’t do that much in a year. Yeah. Um, [00:29:05] it’s a very, very short time. By the time you actually get your feet under the table. I mean, I’ve been on the board, [00:29:10] I think, for, I don’t know, seven years before I became president. [00:29:15] Six years. So you kind of think you know the ropes, but actually when you when you’re in the hot seat, [00:29:20] it’s it’s very difficult to make big changes. Not that I think necessarily the bacb [00:29:25] needs big changes. I think it just needs tweaks to keep it relevant and modern and [00:29:30] still delivering what it’s delivered to everyone of my generation and [00:29:35] the generations before. But, um, I had some things that I wanted to change, [00:29:40] and I think some of them I was successful on, some that I wasn’t, but really just a steward, [00:29:45] I think is with these big academies, when they’ve been formed for quite [00:29:50] a while, you’re really just making sure that it’s carrying on in the same direction and moving, [00:29:55] uh, moving upwards.

Payman Langroudi: But now I guess you’ve got more time for your own teaching. So [00:30:00] digital dentistry was where you were mainly at home. God [00:30:05] bless Lewis Mackenzie. He he he told me that your [00:30:10] dental plan round went like he said. He said one of the most popular [00:30:15] speakers they’ve ever had.

[Both]: That’s kind.

Simon Chard: Of a. Yeah. So sad.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. [00:30:20] Teaching wise, where are you going?

Simon Chard: Well I’m very I’m very excited [00:30:25] about the future of digital with 3D printing. I’m working quite closely with sprint Ray. [00:30:30] I think they’re a really exciting forward thinking company. I [00:30:35] think, um, Amir, the founders really, really understands the Dental market. [00:30:40] And I’m excited to be sort of at the forefront of [00:30:45] that. I’m using it every single day now.

Payman Langroudi: Printing crowns.

Simon Chard: Uh, not printing crowns. [00:30:50] So printing primarily my surgical guides and splints and models for whitening trays [00:30:55] and smile designs and those sorts of things. Yeah, but I’ve got the setup for the Crown. That’s something that we’re testing [00:31:00] out for me. I’ve got a cerec machine, obviously. And so for the single unit, [00:31:05] just milling it because the workflow I’m so used to. Yeah, it’s just a little bit easier [00:31:10] for me, but for full mouth cases, for full mouth previsualization, for [00:31:15] um, quadrants where it’s sort of inlay type restorations, 3D printing [00:31:20] is already ready to print those restorations definitively, and I’m pretty confident on the on the science and the materials [00:31:25] behind that already. There’s still a little bit opaque. They need to be a bit more translucent. But [00:31:30] think about Cerec back in 85 or whatever. Right.

[Both]: So this is [00:31:35] before your time.

Simon Chard: That was before my time. Yeah.

[Both]: It’s awful.

Simon Chard: Didn’t have to endure that. [00:31:40] Um, but it’s I think it’s really exciting. And they’re putting a real focus on materials, [00:31:45] which I think is a great shout. So I’m excited to see where that goes. And I’m going to do a bit of lecturing around [00:31:50] that. But I’m I don’t know, I think again, just thinking more about my own. [00:31:55] My own purpose, my own feelings. Now. I mean, I’ve been [00:32:00] qualified now for 12 years. I always want to do something that’s a bit different and a bit [00:32:05] unique, and it’s fulfilling my own sort of passions. [00:32:10] And for me, that’s personal development and it’s personal growth and it’s optimisation, [00:32:15] and it’s everything in that sort of space, more so than straight clinical. [00:32:20] I’m really enjoying implants at the moment, saying that I really enjoy the whole fully guided, fully digital [00:32:25] digital workflow. So I might do a little bit around that, but my main focus [00:32:30] is towards more doing something unique in the personal development sort of mastermind [00:32:35] space, because that, I think, is where I’ve got quite a unique skill set [00:32:40] from my time with Parler, uh, running a Start-Up from my time running a practice [00:32:45] from my time running the Bacd sort of bringing together all those [00:32:50] sort of leadership, branding, marketing, and then mixing that in with personal [00:32:55] development.

Simon Chard: I think it could be quite an exciting new format that would [00:33:00] give me a lot of joy and actually give a lot back, because, again, a lot of the stuff we’ve been talking about today is [00:33:05] dentists who I mean, look at the dental protection study from 2020, [00:33:10] over 50% of dentists are considering leaving the profession because of reasons of personal [00:33:15] well-being. That’s a shocking statistic. Dentists in general have twice [00:33:20] the rates of stress, burnout, mental health issues versus the general population, [00:33:25] suicide, and obviously suicide, worst of all. And [00:33:30] so I really I really want to help with those things as much as I can. I don’t think dentists are looking after themselves [00:33:35] well enough. I don’t think they’re following the basics around the sort of foundations [00:33:40] of what makes a better dental life with regards to looking after themselves, [00:33:45] but in their own oxygen mask on first, building their resilience to stress and burn out, [00:33:50] building their resilience. If they do get a letter through litigation from the GDC or something like that, [00:33:55] and just building a bit more of a community, I think around all of that. So that [00:34:00] I think is somewhere something that I can bring unique value into the industry with. And [00:34:05] that, I think is the next step for me teaching wise.

[Both]: Do you think.

Payman Langroudi: You have [00:34:10] to stick to dentists because you’re poured? Like I’ve [00:34:15] told you many times, I was a massive fan of your poured. You have. Yeah. It wasn’t about dentistry at all. [00:34:20]

Simon Chard: No, it was intentionally.

[Both]: Yeah, it was excellent.

Payman Langroudi: It was really was excellent. Now, you know, [00:34:25] the dental market is small enough that whatever you say, tomorrow half the market will hear. Yeah. [00:34:30] Whereas as we know, B2C is a bit different.

[Both]: Yeah. We’ll shout a lot louder.

Payman Langroudi: As [00:34:35] you’re finding out. But the content wise, I mean, look, Garyvee was a [00:34:40] wine cellar, wasn’t he, before he became Garyvee. I’m not saying become Garyvee. Yeah, yeah, but [00:34:45] content wise, maybe maybe a generic content that anyone could, could get [00:34:50] behind.

[Both]: Yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: See something with a Dental arm on the end.

[Both]: Of it. I mean, maybe I’ve. [00:34:55]

Simon Chard: Been stung by by Parler going b2b2c and knowing how hard that can be, but [00:35:00] I think dentistry is a unique profession, and I see so [00:35:05] many people in dentistry that need help. Yeah, with regards to finding their purpose, [00:35:10] finding their focus, just so many people just following [00:35:15] what their colleagues are doing, just doing what everyone else is doing and not knowing why they’re doing anything. [00:35:20] And I think it’s more it’s not necessarily about scale all the time. Do you know what I mean? [00:35:25] It’s it’s more this for me is, is more about actually this [00:35:30] is something that I’m passionate about that I think I can help other people with. And [00:35:35] it can be a business simultaneously. And so, um, that’s kind of where [00:35:40] my head’s at with it. I don’t necessarily want it to become a behemoth. I don’t want to be [00:35:45] stretching myself too far with regards to time management, because I’ve already got enough things going [00:35:50] on.

[Both]: That’s true.

Simon Chard: But, um, equally, I have this thing where if I [00:35:55] can’t get something out of my head, then I have to action on it. And again, going back to the deathbed. The [00:36:00] deathbed regrets, uh, the study from a guy called John Gilovich. I [00:36:05] think his name is where he says, uh, where he found that, uh, over 76% of [00:36:10] regrets, of deathbed regrets were regrets of inaction rather than regrets [00:36:15] of action, i.e., people wishing that they’d done something that was for them and [00:36:20] in alignment with their values. And so this focus on on personal development [00:36:25] and mastermind and supporting dentists to sort of have the dental lives that they want is something that [00:36:30] I’ve not been able to get out of my head for the last 18 months. And so I feel that it’s [00:36:35] sort of.

[Both]: It’s something you’re going to do at some point. Yeah.

Simon Chard: That’s it.

Payman Langroudi: But then I’d [00:36:40] imagine someone like you would like multiple practices as well, or [00:36:45] for parlour to go internationally as well, or [00:36:50] 100 other things. Right. So if something was going to give which. [00:36:55] One of those would give. Like for me, I did stop practising dentistry. Not because I didn’t like [00:37:00] practising dentistry. I actually enjoyed practising dentistry a lot. Yeah, at that time [00:37:05] there was almost a feeling of if I. If I don’t go all in, then [00:37:10] I won’t make it happen. Yeah, yeah. And as much as we can put people [00:37:15] in charge of our businesses. Especially a perfectionist [00:37:20] like you.

[Both]: Right?

Payman Langroudi: You couldn’t have. You couldn’t end up having either massive [00:37:25] regret for not having, you know, oversight over people’s decisions [00:37:30] or oversight over people’s key decisions. You know, so [00:37:35] it’s I’m not saying that’s true for everyone, right? There are other people who are very unemotional [00:37:40] about every. They might own 100 businesses in an unemotional way. [00:37:45]

[Both]: But, you know, that’s not me, that’s not you, that’s not you.

Payman Langroudi: So. So even though it’s a little bit unfair, [00:37:50] which one would give, what would give of the of the five things that.

[Both]: We just talked decision. [00:37:55]

Simon Chard: Because and I’ve structured my life in a way that I don’t need to because I am. [00:38:00]

[Both]: Maybe too soon.

Simon Chard: Possibly. But I mean, at the moment I’ve not had to. And I’m very fortunate [00:38:05] in that the teams that I have around me are all, uh, uh, detail [00:38:10] orientated operators. And that’s intentionally to [00:38:15] support the character that I have. As I say, if if [00:38:20] there was, if there was anything on my plate that I didn’t feel needed to be there, I’m constantly [00:38:25] re-evaluating how my calendar is structured. [00:38:30] Um, and my assistant and I would recommend all dentists to get at least a virtual assistant, [00:38:35] because it’s one of the best things that I’ve done. Um, my assistant knows to sort of hold [00:38:40] me accountable to what I say is how I want to spend my time, [00:38:45] if that makes sense.

[Both]: Yeah.

Simon Chard: So I think the best way for you to evaluate whether or [00:38:50] not you’re living in alignment with your core values and your mission statement in life is look at your calendar. [00:38:55] How much of your time is allocated to the things that you say that you really care about, [00:39:00] and how much of it is allocated to things that you’re doing for other people, or for things that you don’t [00:39:05] even know why you’re there.

[Both]: You’re right.

Payman Langroudi: The people pleasing thing is interesting. You [00:39:10] know, there’s there’s people in my life who are people pleasers, who I used [00:39:15] to put on a pedestal. I used to think that’s just so special, [00:39:20] always thinking about other people before themselves. Until one [00:39:25] of my heroes, Anthony Bourdain. Um, and I listened to a pod, his couple [00:39:30] of his friends talking about him, and that was his mental illness. People [00:39:35] pleasing.

[Both]: Really.

Payman Langroudi: Or whatnot. That’s what I got out of it, right? There was nothing left [00:39:40] in the tank for himself. Yeah, because he was making sure everything. And in my in my childish [00:39:45] little brain, I thought he. What a hero. What a what a perfect life this guy’s [00:39:50] got. And, uh, he commits suicide. It’s a funny [00:39:55] thing because, you know, it’s it’s how we’re wired. It’s what? What? There are different ways that different [00:40:00] people are wired. And to go against what you’re good at doesn’t feel [00:40:05] natural. Yeah. And yet, what you’re good at often ends up being both [00:40:10] your biggest strength and your biggest weakness, you know?

[Both]: Absolutely.

Simon Chard: But I think self-awareness [00:40:15] is one of the key, key characteristics for anyone. I mean, it’s how I it’s how I [00:40:20] choose my closest friends. I mean, I, I can’t be around someone who’s not [00:40:25] self-aware. It drives me absolutely insane because I’m so I’m so self-aware [00:40:30] and so self-critical and always trying to improve. And that’s why when [00:40:35] people misjudge me, when they’ve never met me, I find I take that very [00:40:40] personally because I, I’m always endeavouring to analyse myself and the way [00:40:45] I present myself. So yeah, the trolls, the trolls, the trolls can hit me, hit [00:40:50] me hard sometimes, but I’m, I’m much better at that now. I got, I got I put up a post [00:40:55] yesterday about this NHS thing and I got, I got trolled a bit by some dentists uh [00:41:00] saying, oh, why do they always choose private dentists to go on the TV? Um, and. [00:41:05] Um, and I was just gonna ignore it, but. Megan, Megan, [00:41:10] Megan, Megan got really pissed off about it, and she she, uh, she [00:41:15] started, like, taking them down one by one in the comment section, which is quite amusing, but, [00:41:20] um. Yeah, self-awareness, I think, is, um, is the key self-awareness [00:41:25] as to why you’re doing things, self-awareness of what you’re doing. I think it’s a vital [00:41:30] characteristic.

[Both]: Trolled like he used to be, surely. Uh, no. [00:41:35]

Payman Langroudi: Not think you sort of earned.

Simon Chard: I thought about this the other day. I thought about.

[Both]: This because you were. [00:41:40]

Payman Langroudi: Trolled.

Simon Chard: Pretty heavily, pretty.

Payman Langroudi: Heavily back when you were one, two, three years qualified and making [00:41:45] waves.

Simon Chard: 2020, 2016, 2017. Yeah, that sort of time when I just [00:41:50] won Best Young Dentist, that sort of thing.

[Both]: Yeah.

Simon Chard: But yeah, I don’t know. Maybe it’s just the different [00:41:55] platforms. I mean, that was very much Facebook back in the day. Uh, maybe it’s because I’m older now, [00:42:00] I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: No, I think that has something to do with it.

Simon Chard: Um, I mean, if it is because I’m older now, [00:42:05] that’s horrible. Because why would you intentionally go after a younger, more [00:42:10] naive individual in the industry?

Payman Langroudi: I understand what [00:42:15] you’re saying, dude, but. You’ve got to also put yourself in the position of someone qualified [00:42:20] six months ago who’s breaking the rules of [00:42:25] communication as far as you’re concerned? Yeah, that’s that’s an important point, [00:42:30] right. That, you know, as it went from nothing to Dental Town to Facebook [00:42:35] to Instagram to TikTok to LinkedIn or whatever, wherever, wherever it’s going. [00:42:40] Yeah, whoever, whoever was sort of comfortable in one, one area. And [00:42:45] then this upstart comes in a totally different area. And what my point to you is that you [00:42:50] are also going to feel this way. Yeah, but.

Simon Chard: I won’t.

Payman Langroudi: Troll someone. Yeah. [00:42:55]

[Both]: Yeah. Exactly.

Simon Chard: That’s that’s that’s my point.

[Both]: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But you’ll find what you’ll find is whatever you do [00:43:00] might offend that person or hurt that person more than you’d imagine. Because [00:43:05] the guy who trolled you. I don’t know, beaten up in boarding school or something. And [00:43:10] you know, you know what I mean? There’s the way he’s thinking about it, a few words. Why [00:43:15] would that hurt anyone? Yeah, yeah. And it’s not not on to what it’s like to be you. Not not [00:43:20] I’m not saying you’re going to be that cat, but I understand where it comes from. Oh, mate, [00:43:25] I.

Simon Chard: Do, I do, I do, I fully understand like, oh when, when you especially when you [00:43:30] feel like you’ve struggled your way to get to a certain position. Yeah. And then you feel like someone is almost [00:43:35] on, like.

[Both]: Leapfrogged on.

Simon Chard: Like a speedboat overtaking you unnecessarily or unfairly. [00:43:40] I completely understand the rationale, but it still doesn’t justify [00:43:45] the actions. And like, I just I hated that about dentistry [00:43:50] and I still do. I mean, I’m still getting shit now. I just don’t care. But when you’re a [00:43:55] young, when you’re a young dentist, like trying your best, really, like really being [00:44:00] passionate and really going for it and always, always showing up with [00:44:05] humility to be attacked by the old the old guard [00:44:10] is unforgivable, in my opinion. And and it’s just it’s everything that’s wrong with the [00:44:15] dental industry. Like have an abundance mentality. Don’t feel so pathetic that [00:44:20] you are so. Your ego is so bruised by someone else doing something [00:44:25] like there’s a finite number of teeth or a finite number of lecturing positions to be allocated. [00:44:30] It’s an embarrassment. And I’ll never I’ll never let myself show up like [00:44:35] that. I don’t care how much someone smashing it on TikTok, and [00:44:40] I’m jealous because I’m an old school on Instagram. Like, I honestly, I don’t care [00:44:45] at all. It’s just not the way that I’m wired and good on good on them, good [00:44:50] on the I mean, go ahead, dance away on TikTok. Like go for it, I love it.

[Both]: I just [00:44:55] I.

Payman Langroudi: Just remember an older lady dentist telling me, like, I just can’t believe that our profession [00:45:00] has got to the point where dentists will go on Instagram with their bikinis on. Yeah, and. [00:45:05]

Simon Chard: I do look great in a.

[Both]: Bikini.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:45:10] you know, she meant it. You know, she really meant it. Yeah. And you [00:45:15] know, that’s I understand what you’re saying. There’s a nastiness of vindictiveness. [00:45:20] I think some of the niceness and vindictiveness comes from the cover that patient’s [00:45:25] best interests kind of gives you. You can almost. I can totally [00:45:30] rip you apart because, hey, I’m trying to help the patient. You know, it’s the patient. I’m interested in it. [00:45:35] Yeah, it may be a feature of health care, you know? Well, I.

Simon Chard: Mean, there’s some things [00:45:40] that others do on socials that I wouldn’t do that I personally don’t find [00:45:45] professional. Um, but it’s each to their own at the end of the day. What things? No [00:45:50] no no no, I’m not going down this line.

[Both]: What kind of things? Um.

Simon Chard: I [00:45:55] just, I just think, like I, as I say, I don’t want I don’t want to go down that line because [00:46:00] many people may say the same thing about me. Um, and so I don’t I mean, [00:46:05] he throws the first stone or whatever. Um, but, um, yeah, [00:46:10] it’s each to their own at the end of the day, and you’ve got to have as long as you’re not hurting anyone, if [00:46:15] you’ve got your own style and you want to show up in a certain way, then I think the best thing that people can do [00:46:20] on socials is be unique to who they are. The worst thing they can do is try and copy everyone [00:46:25] else and try and yeah, uh, I mean, you can take you can model and you can see things that work [00:46:30] and then coming to it with your own unique way. And if that’s you turning up [00:46:35] in a bikini, then, then fine. Um, but, um. Yeah, [00:46:40] as I say, I’ll never be. I’ll never be the one to be trolling someone else on socials, even [00:46:45] if I feel like something they’ve done is I don’t agree with. Public forums is not the place [00:46:50] for for professionals to be taking each other down, like we should be building each other up. [00:46:55] It’s tough enough out there as it is.

Payman Langroudi: And if if some young kid came [00:47:00] on to some forum and said something that was completely incorrect about some sort [00:47:05] of implant stent, you just put him right? No, not [00:47:10] even that.

Simon Chard: I’m not. Who am I to judge? I it’s it’s not [00:47:15] my role to be, uh, securing the internet for Dental truths [00:47:20] like. I’ll leave that to old Jason Smithson.

[Both]: Look. [00:47:25]

Simon Chard: I love Jason, Jason, I love Jason Jason. [00:47:30] He he does love to, like, take people.

[Both]: Down and avid.

Payman Langroudi: Listener I understand. Okay, [00:47:35] okay. Let me make it more personal for you. Yeah. What if someone was a was [00:47:40] like a greenwash product that was claiming to be eco [00:47:45] friendly and. Copying your ideas and.

Simon Chard: Already happened.

[Both]: Already. [00:47:50] Give me another one. Really? Yeah, totally. Well.

Simon Chard: They already exist. I mean, [00:47:55] there’s other copycat brands that that have, like, slammed us on online, like [00:48:00] saying like, oh, if you want a real X, Y and Z not [00:48:05] like. And even in our comments on our ads, like, um, I [00:48:10] think it’s even dentists. I hate that these are dentists founders who have. Anyway, socials [00:48:15] just aren’t the place to have your arguments, honestly. Like if I have an issue [00:48:20] with someone then I’ll talk to them face to face. I just I just don’t align with [00:48:25] having arguments on social media. It’s not what it’s there for. My view is use social media, [00:48:30] use social media. Don’t let it use you. I’m going to use it for what I want. I’m not [00:48:35] going to be doomscrolling having arguments with people about the fact that I disagree with [00:48:40] the colour of their car or something like that. It’s not for me. Fair enough. [00:48:45]

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about Parler, regarding where you’re at at the moment, regarding just [00:48:50] the product pipeline. So I saw, um, oral prebiotics. [00:48:55] Yeah. And that, that get absorbed through the gums.

Simon Chard: Uh, [00:49:00] no. They act. They act topically in the mouth. So, yeah, we launched a mouthwash, a chewable mouthwash product [00:49:05] back in, uh, August, which was basically, obviously [00:49:10] all of us know, right? Everyone uses mouthwash at the wrong time. Uh, everyone uses it immediately after they brush their [00:49:15] teeth. Yeah. Um, and, um, and one of the reasons for that, I think, is that no [00:49:20] one’s carrying around 500ml of mouthwash in their pocket or in their handbag. And so we wanted [00:49:25] to create a portable mouthwash product that gave you that fresh breath. Number one. So fresh [00:49:30] breath on the go, but also gave you an opportunity to reduce [00:49:35] decay, risk of decay, risk of gum disease, all that sort of stuff, um, that you would get from a product [00:49:40] that contained hydroxyapatite and fluoride. And in this case, [00:49:45] uh, lactobacilli oral probiotics to be have a more modern approach [00:49:50] to oral care. I mean, the oral microbiome, there’s 700, uh, different species. There’s 2 [00:49:55] billion different bacteria in in the oral microbiome. We all know the [00:50:00] bad bacteria like PG and AA and all those ones that cause dental disease. [00:50:05] The old school way of mouthwash was sticks. Markel in their nuke everything, [00:50:10] kill all the bugs and then that will help. We come at it with a more modern approach [00:50:15] that says, let’s support good bacteria to outcompete the bad bacteria, and that will [00:50:20] help to reduce the risk of gum disease. That will help to reduce the risk of bad breath. And [00:50:25] it’s fascinating looking at the research when we were designing this product, actually oral dysbiosis, [00:50:30] which is when you have an overgrowth of bad bacteria in the mouth, is linked with loads of [00:50:35] other things that that those bacteria can actually be transposed down into your, uh, [00:50:40] into your GI tract. And there’s a much higher risk of IBS, um, [00:50:45] in those patients. And those have been linked as well. So it’s really interesting. I mean, that whole space of, [00:50:50] uh, oral health, systemic health and the interactions between them is something that I’m [00:50:55] so, so fascinated about. And I think it’s a really exciting part of dentistry at the moment. [00:51:00]

Payman Langroudi: But for parlours that, do you almost feel like that’s a pivot from the [00:51:05] environmental message?

[Both]: Uh, we’ve.

Simon Chard: Always tried to innovate with our products. I mean, I’m [00:51:10] my my sort of R&D mantra is no greenwash, no [00:51:15] gimmicks. And so I, we always want to make sure that we’re staying true to those values. [00:51:20] So we’re always going to be 100% plastic free. But if that’s all we are then [00:51:25] we’re not continuing to innovate. We’re not continuing to improve. And so just [00:51:30] like with our our parlour Pro, we put in 50% of your RDA of vitamin B12 [00:51:35] and vitamin E. There’s great randomised, double blind controlled trials on the elderly and on [00:51:40] vegans that vitamin fortified toothpaste works as well as an oral supplement with [00:51:45] regards to getting vitamin B12 into the bloodstream.

Payman Langroudi: And vegans suffer.

[Both]: With.

Simon Chard: Vegans, which [00:51:50] are a lot of our target demographics, struggle with B12 deficiency, and it supports a healthy immune [00:51:55] system and all the rest of it. So we thought, what a brilliant way with a tablet form [00:52:00] factor, where we can control the dose to actually get those vitamins into the bloodstream without even [00:52:05] having to remember to take your daily supplements. So that was part of Pro and that we launched back in 21. [00:52:10] This is just the next generation. And as I say, I like anything I [00:52:15] do in life. I never like to show up with the same thing that someone else has [00:52:20] shown up with. I always like to be unique in the way that I come to market in anything that I do, and [00:52:25] that’s the same with our new products with parlour, in that I always want to innovate, to come out [00:52:30] with a slightly different angle and for us, a more modern approach, a more functional, [00:52:35] holistic approach to oral care is the way the market’s moving. Rightfully [00:52:40] so. And so I want parlour to be at the forefront of that while still being [00:52:45] science backed. And dentist approved. Not going too far, if you know what I mean. [00:52:50]

[Both]: It’s difficult though.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you’re involved with performance marketing right now. [00:52:55] It’s difficult getting many messages across.

[Both]: Yes, it [00:53:00] is one piece.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. It doesn’t have to be one piece. But I remember your [00:53:05] early ads for Parler was like a turtle. Remember [00:53:10] that? If you. Well, of course you remember the whole [00:53:15] thing about animals having plastic inside their guts was of that moment. [00:53:20] Yeah. And, uh, I remember a Parler ad with the turtle. Turtle on it or something. Yeah. [00:53:25] The messaging there is, you know, save the turtle for the sake of the argument. Yeah. Now, [00:53:30] if you have to say save the turtle and change your, your oral microbiome, that’s [00:53:35] two messages which or you might have a whole separate message for the oral microbiome [00:53:40] piece. Yeah. And another one. But my experience every time you add something or make [00:53:45] a move, it dilutes your message.

Simon Chard: Again, I think this is the same as the MVP [00:53:50] conversation that we had at the start. I fully agree with what you’re saying. Makes complete conceptual sense, [00:53:55] and certainly makes marketing sense when it comes to delivering a clear, succinct, single message. [00:54:00] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But but but but I understand, you know, you’re compelled by it and you’re going for [00:54:05] it. Yeah. In in a similar way, you know, I think someone should come out with the [00:54:10] best non fluoride toothpaste in the world, you know, and it’s almost sacrilege in a professional [00:54:15] setting to say that.

[Both]: Who knows.

Payman Langroudi: Until until yeah, until [00:54:20] I’ve got a member of staff. She said she’s worried about fluoride. I didn’t know this. [00:54:25] Yeah. And she said, yeah, I’m getting my son to brush one day on, one day off [00:54:30] with a non fluoride toothpaste. And you know we know that that’s that’s half [00:54:35] the dose down. Yeah that’s a disastrous move as far as fluoride is concerned. Right. Um [00:54:40] but you know she, she, she works in a company that manufactures toothpaste and she [00:54:45] didn’t know this. Yeah. Yeah. And it makes you think, right? It makes you think that that in in countries [00:54:50] where they in the Japan, in Russia, they really do sort of find fluoride [00:54:55] very suspicious. Those countries have moved forward with alternatives. [00:55:00]

Simon Chard: Yeah. And I think look, I’m, I’m a big believer of strong opinions [00:55:05] loosely held. And I think we hang on to dogma for far too long in dentistry. [00:55:10] Yeah. There’s a real resistance to change, a fear of change in every [00:55:15] element of dentistry. Very true. Especially in the UK and especially with and [00:55:20] it’s for a variety of reasons, I think I think the community of dentists, again, going [00:55:25] back to that whole sort of trolling thing, people are cautious of going too, too far outside of the, of [00:55:30] the norm. Obviously, we’re intensely fearful of being litigated against from the GDC for doing [00:55:35] anything that is not in the patient’s best interest, but without innovation and change and progress, [00:55:40] how are we ever going to improve? Yeah, and there’s so many parts of dentistry that I think need [00:55:45] radical innovation. And that’s what really excites me about dentistry. I [00:55:50] think there’s so much negativity around dentistry in the media and even [00:55:55] within the industry. Clearly a 50% of dentists want to leave the profession because they’re feeling [00:56:00] stressed out about it. But it’s such an exciting. I see such an exciting [00:56:05] time to be involved.

Payman Langroudi: I had Linda Cruz on recently.

[Both]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And he [00:56:10] said that, um, that practice owners, their list [00:56:15] of top five worries are all the things that you talked about before, the staffing questions. [00:56:20] Yeah. Costs going up, all of the business type worries. But for associates [00:56:25] by a long way, the number one thing is fear of litigation. Um, and [00:56:30] he was saying we don’t need to be so scared of litigation anymore because that machinery [00:56:35] of the GDC and dental law partnership and no win, no fee is [00:56:40] no longer what it was.

[Both]: Oh, really? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And that message hasn’t gotten through. I thought it’s [00:56:45] just gotten worse and worse. It’s just getting worse continuously.

[Both]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So did I because you just imagine these these things just get [00:56:50] worse. Yeah. But he said it’s significantly better than it was in 2015, 2016.

[Both]: Interesting. [00:56:55]

Payman Langroudi: And uh, he.

[Both]: Was saying changed.

Payman Langroudi: Well no win, no fees changed. [00:57:00]

Simon Chard: In what way is it now. No. No longer, no way, no fee.

[Both]: I didn’t get no win.

Simon Chard: Some fee. [00:57:05]

Payman Langroudi: The business model around no win, no fee isn’t as compelling as it was. Okay. And so [00:57:10] for for a company like Dental Law Partnership, it doesn’t make as much financial sense to [00:57:15] go after it. And at the same time, at the GDC, there were empire building was what he the [00:57:20] way he called it, making it, making it just a bigger thing. And that’s [00:57:25] that’s stopped and it’s shrinking and it’s important this sort of information gets out. Right?

Simon Chard: Yeah, [00:57:30] absolutely. I mean, that, that that will definitely make people feel better because I think fear of litigation [00:57:35] is, is got to be the number one concern for, for most certainly for most young dentists, [00:57:40] if not all dentists, I think I mean, my understanding of the figures is that you’ve got a 1 in 2 [00:57:45] chance of being. Of having a case against you as a as a practising dentist anymore. [00:57:50]

Payman Langroudi: He actually said that. He said they used to start their lectures with that.

[Both]: I remember.

Simon Chard: Mark [00:57:55] Woolford. That was when we first started at uni was like, you’ll get sued at some [00:58:00] point in your career.

[Both]: Get ready for.

Simon Chard: It. That was like the opener.

[Both]: Yeah, yeah.

Simon Chard: Welcome [00:58:05] to dental.

[Both]: School, he.

Payman Langroudi: Said actually they were guilty of using that opener so that people would really [00:58:10] pay attention to their lectures.

[Both]: I don’t know if it worked. [00:58:15]

Payman Langroudi: Um, okay, let’s get to that, uh, [00:58:20] happiest day of your life question.

Simon Chard: Happiest day of my life.

[Both]: Yeah, we were.

Payman Langroudi: Talking about [00:58:25] this. I was sitting with Dipesh and, uh, someone. And we were saying not to be [00:58:30] in your 20s has to.

[Both]: Be, um.

Simon Chard: I mean, are [00:58:35] we gonna exclude, like, the obvious ones, like children’s birth and wedding? Like, [00:58:40] take those ones out?

[Both]: Yes, because.

Simon Chard: They’re too obvious, right? It’s like [00:58:45] it’s almost cliche. Yeah. Um. Oh, [00:58:50] gosh. I mean.

[Both]: Trying to think there’s so many ways.

Payman Langroudi: Of looking at that, isn’t it? There could be a day of relief. [00:58:55] You found out your sister’s cancer had gone. You know, it could be like that, but even that’s a cheat. [00:59:00]

Simon Chard: Well, the answer you really want is [00:59:05] like, there’s this one massive rager, you know.

[Both]: That went until 6 a.m.. [00:59:10]

Simon Chard: We saw the sunrise.

[Both]: It was that for me?

Payman Langroudi: It was that. It was. It was a B for like 2002 [00:59:15] or something.

[Both]: I my my.

Simon Chard: First thoughts went to Ibiza as.

[Both]: Well, interestingly. [00:59:20]

Simon Chard: Um, but it was actually only a couple of years ago that we had a. Yeah, just an amazing time. [00:59:25] It was actually cause we had, we had kids, but then it was like, uh, three [00:59:30] couples away without the kids in Ibiza there just for four days. And, [00:59:35] and it was just, it was just. Yeah, it was just glorious.

[Both]: What do you do? The kids. The grandparents [00:59:40] with the grandparents?

Simon Chard: Yeah. Back at home.

[Both]: Oh. Very lucky. Yeah, it was good.

Simon Chard: It’s good. Can’t get can’t [00:59:45] get away with that too much. Especially not with three kids. I don’t know who’s going to take my three kids.

[Both]: I’m not brave, man. [00:59:50]

Payman Langroudi: Um, most difficult day.

Simon Chard: First [00:59:55] thing that comes to mind is I don’t know if I should say this, but anyway, megs [01:00:00] and I had a break when we were at dental school and that that day when [01:00:05] we broke up, like partially, well, kind of kind of at that point fully, [01:00:10] but didn’t end up obviously being fully. That’s probably the day that comes to mind [01:00:15] if I have to pick an isolated moment of intense despair. [01:00:20] Within living memory. I mean, as you say, the day I found out my sister had cancer would probably trump that. But [01:00:25] I don’t really remember that. Um, the one with megs is probably more, [01:00:30] more memorable just with regards to proximity to.

Payman Langroudi: Now let’s talk about [01:00:35] her. She’s very special, very the kind of person that makes you feel special every time you talk to her. And [01:00:40] now she’s obviously in a massive juggle, right? Because she’s she’s fronting the [01:00:45] practice more like she’s more operational operationally.

[Both]: Certainly. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: In [01:00:50] the practice than you are.

Simon Chard: Well, I mean, we have different roles, but yes, from an HR [01:00:55] point of view, from.

[Both]: A the nitty.

Simon Chard: Gritty, from the nitty gritties point of view, I’m more involved [01:01:00] with the clinician mentorship and and clinical progression. [01:01:05]

[Both]: Happens.

Payman Langroudi: Every time she goes on maternity leave. Who takes over?

Simon Chard: We’ve got a very [01:01:10] good practice management team. I’ve got two fantastic practice managers that have been with us for, well, one of them [01:01:15] is like my second mum. She was there before my parents even bought the practice, so she’s been [01:01:20] there for what did she say today? I think she started when she was 18 and I won’t tell you how old she is now, [01:01:25] but she’s been there for about 40 years. And then another one who’s been there for 20 years and [01:01:30] then my, my TCO Gemma is also fantastic. So, um, [01:01:35] I shouldn’t say any names. People start poaching your staff.

[Both]: Yeah.

Simon Chard: But [01:01:40] yeah. So I think that we’ve got a great admin team. A lot of the systems that we’ve got in place in the practice are very [01:01:45] well sort of tried and true. So as a general rule, it works well. But I mean, I know what makes us like [01:01:50] she’ll be on maternity and she’s going on maternity for a year, but she’ll still be running things. [01:01:55] Really.

[Both]: How much have.

Payman Langroudi: You changed the practice now that you’ve had it for a few years? Have you [01:02:00] systemised things that weren’t systemised before?

[Both]: Yeah, a lot more.

Simon Chard: Systems, a lot more systems, [01:02:05] a lot obviously a lot more digital just everywhere. Uh, a lot more communication with the [01:02:10] patients. We’ve got in-house social media now. So yeah, just really, really [01:02:15] implementing sort of key systems, a lot more of sort of a formal mentorship system [01:02:20] for the associates, really sort of pushing them, saying, what are you [01:02:25] what do you want out of this? What are your goals? What’s your five year plan? How do [01:02:30] you want to sort of show up and excel clinically? Yeah, trying to approach [01:02:35] it from that, from that sort of way. How many.

Payman Langroudi: People is it now.

Simon Chard: Total in the practice? Uh, 32. [01:02:40]

[Both]: It’s a lot of humans. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a lot of humans.

[Both]: Yeah. Which is the.

Simon Chard: Hard part of anything. [01:02:45]

[Both]: Right. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And and so have you thought of number two or. Not? Quite. [01:02:50]

Simon Chard: Uh, yeah. I mean, I’ve definitely thought about it. I’ve been thinking about it since I was an undergrad. [01:02:55] Yeah. Um, it’s always been in the back of my mind. [01:03:00] To have a chain of practices now is not the right time. I [01:03:05] don’t think there’s any great rush for it, for me to sort of scratch that itch with [01:03:10] regards to building something that has scale and [01:03:15] that has impact. And yeah, obviously the kids, as I say, are we’re [01:03:20] about to be outnumbered. So we’re just going to see how that settles in and then, uh, then make a call from there. [01:03:25] But Meghan and I are both both on the same page. I think that we we feel that the model [01:03:30] that we’ve achieved at Rocky Lodge, we can we can now start to replicate and build out. [01:03:35] I think we’ve got some really unique ways of looking at dentistry in the next 5 to 10 years, [01:03:40] again, sort of looking at what’s coming down the pike and looking at what’s going to be the next, the next [01:03:45] big growth area in dentistry. And yeah, I think we want to implement that in multiple other locations. [01:03:50]

[Both]: I know.

Payman Langroudi: Discuss that.

Simon Chard: But what do I [01:03:55] what do I think is the next big areas. Yeah. Uh, I think Airway’s going to be huge.

[Both]: Snoring. [01:04:00]

Simon Chard: More than that.

[Both]: Breathing.

Simon Chard: Yeah. Everything. [01:04:05] Everything to do with the airway and the connection of the airway with the mouth. I think if you speak to American [01:04:10] colleagues, I was in LA with sprint back in July with lots [01:04:15] of sort of really progressive cosmetic dentists. Everyone’s looking at their cases with regard with an airway [01:04:20] lens, I would say maybe less than 1% of UK dentists are thinking in that way.

[Both]: What [01:04:25] does it mean?

Simon Chard: It’s just the interaction between the mouth, the teeth [01:04:30] and the airway. So I mean, for example, sleep apnoea is [01:04:35] one of the one of the most prevalent diseases and one of the least diagnosed. I think they say [01:04:40] there’s a billion people that have sleep apnoea, with the large majority being undiagnosed. [01:04:45] Dentists are in a perfect position to be screening those patients to [01:04:50] try and catch them before they do themselves serious damage, because if you look [01:04:55] at the statistics, the risk of a heart attack for someone with sleep apnoea is [01:05:00] significantly higher than that of someone who’s a smoker. Um, so, yeah, [01:05:05] um, you’re basically stopping breathing 40 times [01:05:10] a night. Yeah. Um, and the amount of stress that puts on your heart is, [01:05:15] is is huge. And so snoring and sleep apnoea. And [01:05:20] simply mandibular repositioning devices and those sort [01:05:25] of appliances is, I think, an entry level, um, I think [01:05:30] early inception orthodontics and the link between orthodontics and [01:05:35] airway is a really interesting space. I think working [01:05:40] with parents and kids to look at mouth breathing and the impact that [01:05:45] that has on skeletal development, I think is a really interesting space and that’s [01:05:50] been largely demonised by the UK market, I think. [01:05:55] Are you familiar with The Muse and all those sorts of guys? There’s something in all of that. There’s a lot of [01:06:00] research in there, a lot of stuff. If you read into it around breathing and around facial [01:06:05] development that I think is really interesting and conservative and biologically respectful [01:06:10] and cosmetic and can make a really big difference. And I think dentists, we’re in just [01:06:15] this fantastic position. We’re the only healthcare provider where we see patients twice a year [01:06:20] when they think they’re healthy. Yeah, no one else does that. So why aren’t [01:06:25] we screening them for.

[Both]: Whatever for.

Simon Chard: Things in our area or even screening? I mean, [01:06:30] for example, we take Bloods before I do any implant and [01:06:35] we check for blood glucose, HB one AC and um, and vitamin D levels, [01:06:40] because we know, looking at the research, that if they have a high blood glucose level or they have [01:06:45] a deficiency in vitamin D, they’re far more likely to show a failure rate of their implants, 7,580% [01:06:50] of patients are vitamin D deficient and 1 in 20 [01:06:55] have got undiagnosed diabetes. Why is everyone not doing this? This [01:07:00] is a point of care blood test that costs minimal [01:07:05] and can make a demonstrative impact on your patient’s life, and [01:07:10] increase the success rate of your procedures that you’re carrying out. I mean, if you’re trying to solve [01:07:15] periodontal disease and the patient’s got blood sugar levels through the roof, good luck with that one. I mean, it’s you’re [01:07:20] going to struggle. So I think that whole link between systemic health, [01:07:25] what you might call biological dentistry, airway and the interaction [01:07:30] between all of that and what we’re doing in the mouth, I think, is that’s I think where dentistry [01:07:35] is going in the next few years, and that’s where I’m going to be focusing my own efforts. [01:07:40]

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. Um, who’s who’s been an inspiration in that way of thinking? [01:07:45]

[Both]: Kyle.

Simon Chard: Stanley. Miguel. Stanley. All the.

[Both]: Related. [01:07:50] Not related at all. No, no.

Simon Chard: No, I’m not aware. Anyway. [01:07:55] They’re not. But, um. So yeah, both those guys are continuous inspirations [01:08:00] for me. Always sort of looking looking at what’s coming up next and not [01:08:05] afraid to stand up for what they think is right. And then just, just, just reading really, I mean, [01:08:10] reading around the topic and. Yeah, just it’s just as [01:08:15] I say, the the research is there. I mean, I’ve done my own training with shark [01:08:20] education from in Canada around airway and just really tried to educate myself [01:08:25] in the space because I think that, again, we’re so controlled by [01:08:30] dogma in this country, I think, and I just try to force myself to think outside the box a little [01:08:35] bit and just see what’s what’s on the periphery that’s coming in. I think that’s the the next thing that’s [01:08:40] going to be really important.

[Both]: Yeah. Miguel, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Every time I’ve read [01:08:45] anything by him, it’s always made me think, you know, and then I’ve spoken to people [01:08:50] who’ve been there and come up with some incredible stories of the types of patients he’s [01:08:55] seeing and and fixing for all sorts of systemic complaints. [01:09:00] Um, and you’re right. I used to work for a guy, Nick Mahindra, and he used to talk about the [01:09:05] effect of the bikes on your back. He was laughed out of a bunch [01:09:10] of I remember we were in sort of ate or something. Yeah. People say it’s crazy. Um, [01:09:15] at the same time, why shouldn’t your bike affect your back? It’s [01:09:20] like we think.

[Both]: Of course it does.

Payman Langroudi: You know, because we’re in the mouth. We think that’s all it is, right?

Simon Chard: It’s [01:09:25] isolated around.

[Both]: Here. Yeah, yeah.

Simon Chard: Nothing touches.

[Both]: It. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s interesting [01:09:30] that that’s where you think it’s going to go in the near future.

Simon Chard: You can see it already. [01:09:35]

[Both]: Yeah.

Simon Chard: You can see it on socials. You can see where the where the interest [01:09:40] is. And as I say, there’s a lot of serious scientists showing really good research in [01:09:45] these spaces. And some of it’s just a reframing. And we’ve we’ve always known that periodontal [01:09:50] disease is linked with diabetes and vice versa. But we’ve not we’ve not [01:09:55] eloquently communicated it to our patients.

[Both]: In.

Simon Chard: A way that they understand. [01:10:00]

[Both]: Yeah.

Simon Chard: And I think that’s the beauty of social media. I mean, it’s such communication at scale [01:10:05] that, um, it facilitates the ability to communicate in different ways [01:10:10] to patients, which can only be a good thing for dentistry, because if we can’t incentivise patients to floss their [01:10:15] teeth for the fear of them losing their teeth, maybe if we could incentivise them by not dying, [01:10:20] that might get them to floss.

[Both]: Maybe it’s [01:10:25] true.

Payman Langroudi: I some clip came up for me where some guy was talking about this, and he was neither a dentist [01:10:30] nor he said, oh, you want to look up? Look after your brain, floss your teeth. Have you seen that one? No. [01:10:35] Yeah. And he was just talking about brain health. Yeah, but flossing your teeth was his thing. He [01:10:40] was talking about, you know.

Simon Chard: Well, I think they’ve shown, um, again, porphyromonas gingivalis [01:10:45] at the bacteria from periodontal disease. I think they’ve shown it in the brains of [01:10:50] Alzheimer’s patients, which is, um, fascinating.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:10:55] I mean, I was reflecting on on where dentistry has gotten to in society today [01:11:00] when I saw you on TV and then Nilesh on TV, and then someone [01:11:05] else on radio and thinking even [01:11:10] five years ago, we didn’t have that kind of interest level. I mean, you know, NHS.

[Both]: Is [01:11:15] a good thing, though. Well, no, it.

Payman Langroudi: Is a good thing. It is a good thing because NHS dentistry is being you know, there’s [01:11:20] been problems with NHS, there’s been queues around dental practices for ten years, 20 years. [01:11:25] That’s always it’s a thing right. That’s happened. And yet, you know we were never called [01:11:30] on as much as we are now. You know, there were some, you know, with PR [01:11:35] agents and all that. But I feel like when we’re, we’re more sort [01:11:40] of respected as not only the place where you go where it’s toothache. Yeah. You [01:11:45] know, do you feel that with the public.

[Both]: Yeah. I think, I think.

Simon Chard: Again, I mean, it’s [01:11:50] my view is that it’s social media. It’s broken down the walls between [01:11:55] professionals, for better or for worse, as we were talking about earlier. But it’s broken down the [01:12:00] walls and it’s it’s humanised the profession. And it’s given us more of an opportunity than ever to [01:12:05] educate our patients on things that are important for oral health. So, yeah, [01:12:10] I guess I think that’s probably the reason why.

Payman Langroudi: So coming to the end of our time.

[Both]: Um, [01:12:15] in.

Simon Chard: Life or on the path.

[Both]: Of life?

Payman Langroudi: I [01:12:20] think I do have these business mid life crisis now, right? What’s the mid life crisis? [01:12:25] Okay, so I’m going to Morocco next week. Oh nice. There’s an opportunity to go on a, uh, [01:12:30] hot air balloon. Yeah. Have you been.

[Both]: Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Chard: Uh, in, uh, Tanzania, but. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So [01:12:35] I’ve never been in one. Yeah. And I find this little moment thinking I may never get [01:12:40] the opportunity again.

[Both]: Like, come on, man, it’s like feeling.

Payman Langroudi: Type feeling type feeling. Yeah. I [01:12:45] could go right the following holiday. Yeah, but but the following holiday I might be somewhere where they don’t [01:12:50] do that. Yeah. Just that feeling. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway it’s not real in my, in that one. But [01:12:55] in business it is real. There are situations I’m thinking I may never be [01:13:00] able to do this x, y or z in business again. Yeah. And I’ve [01:13:05] recently understood the word the crisis part of it. The mid life always [01:13:10] got. Yeah. But the crisis part is really that right. That you think this is my last chance. Yeah. [01:13:15]

Simon Chard: And so what. And so you make rash decisions.

[Both]: Not necessarily sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: No, no the [01:13:20] crisis is should I or shouldn’t I. Right, right. Um, but it’s not necessarily you make a bad decision. You can make a good decision. [01:13:25] It sort of spurs you into action, which is what it’s done to me a little bit. Um, [01:13:30] but but I don’t know where this came up from.

[Both]: You [01:13:35] want.

Simon Chard: To tell us about the.

[Both]: Ferrari you bought? Yeah, yeah. The leather trousers.

Payman Langroudi: Maserati? [01:13:40] No. Yeah. We’re coming to the end of our time, so, um, I’m [01:13:45] going to end it with the usual questions. Deathbed. [01:13:50] Yeah. Three pieces of advice. For your friends and family. [01:13:55] What would they be?

[Both]: Ooh, that’s a toughie.

Simon Chard: First [01:14:00] one would be, um. I’ve [01:14:05] got to put some stoicism in there. So memento mori. So remember death. Always [01:14:10] remember how short life is. Second one would be. [01:14:15] Cause a difficult one, isn’t it? [01:14:20] I guess second one would be always know [01:14:25] why you’re doing what you’re doing. So reinforcing that sort of life [01:14:30] purpose and spending time on that and analysing it. And [01:14:35] then the third one. Just do epic shit and have fun.

[Both]: Like [01:14:40] seize the day.

Simon Chard: Yeah, I think, like, [01:14:45] I don’t know, I spend so much time pondering the meaning of life and thinking [01:14:50] about things like legacy and that sort of thing, but in reality, no one will know. No one will [01:14:55] know about you after three generations. And so really, you need to [01:15:00] live your life for yourself, your loved ones, with purpose, [01:15:05] with pride and enjoy yourself. I think that’s that’s how I try to live my [01:15:10] life. So that would be the advice that I pass on to.

[Both]: My loved ones. [01:15:15] Very nice.

Payman Langroudi: Simon, it’s been a massive pleasure having [01:15:20] you here again. And I think I’m going to catch up with you every 3 or 4 years, because your rate of acceleration [01:15:25] is so high. Um, I wish you lots of luck with all of these different [01:15:30] projects, particularly Parler. Parler. As as someone who’s been through these hassles [01:15:35] myself, um, it’s always nice to see someone else kind of breaking through.

[Both]: Thanks, [01:15:40] man, I appreciate it.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks for coming. Cheers.

[VOICE]: This [01:15:45] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one [01:15:50] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:15:55] hosts. Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:16:00] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And [01:16:05] just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to [01:16:10] say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

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