Month: June 2024

Sumair Khan: And make sure you have the basic skills down. Basic skills of Perrier restorative [00:00:05] oral surgery and prosthodontics. Period. Definitely you need to understand how [00:00:10] to recognise it, manage it and how to stabilise it and maintain it. Yeah. Oral [00:00:15] surgery. You need to be able to raise flaps, draw bone, cut gum safely, raise [00:00:20] flaps safely, draw bone safely and close with sutures as well. Some of the times you see [00:00:25] people taking hours to put sutures and you think, this is this is not right. It’s not fair for a patient. It’s not right. [00:00:30]

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get [00:00:40] to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:50] Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Sum Khan onto [00:00:55] the podcast. Summer has three practices of his own and [00:01:00] implantologists in partnership with Gillian Kish with the smile Group. [00:01:05] And I see some really at the events a lot where he’s teaching. [00:01:10] Implantology his son was responsible for the implant diploma that the [00:01:15] Smile Clinic group do. Massive pleasure to have you, buddy.

Sumair Khan: No, it’s absolute pleasure to be here. It’s been [00:01:20] a long time coming. Yeah. It has, it really has. Really? First, I want to just get into your [00:01:25] childhood.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of kid were you? What did your parents do? Why? Dentistry? [00:01:30] Where did you grow up? All of that sort of stuff.

Sumair Khan: That’s interesting. Um, my. My parents were both, uh, doctors. [00:01:35] My dad was an orthopaedic surgeon. My mom was a GP. My dad was told very [00:01:40] early on when I was. I was born in 1972. So I’m 52 now. [00:01:45] Um, and my dad, when I was about ten, was told that he was the wrong colour [00:01:50] to be a surgeon consultant in this country because he was training alongside lots of stress and not [00:01:55] being appointed so.

Payman Langroudi: Outright just.

Sumair Khan: Said that. Yeah, I think in those days you could say that’s a different [00:02:00] time. So he left the country and became a consultant, uh, back home in Pakistan, [00:02:05] became a professor, ran his own clinic, a very successful, uh, so I grew up here with my two brothers. [00:02:10] The three of us with my mum was my who’s busy GP she that 40 years. [00:02:15] And they still kept pushing us to be like doctors, dentists or like professionals of [00:02:20] some kind. I was off the rails a bit, a little bit when I, when I was [00:02:25] 18, I wanted to be a fireman. I thought, what is not to like? You get like awarded medals, [00:02:30] you get to work out all day. You get yourself on a calendar, you know, I mean, it’s, uh, women [00:02:35] swooning over you. This is brilliant. My parents were like, no, you’re out your mind. You are going to be a doctor. So [00:02:40] I applied for medicine and I had already had to retake. And my parents said, [00:02:45] apply for medicine. I applied and Kings said we could give it to you after another year. And they were like, no, [00:02:50] no, you’ll be two years behind. And embarked. Interestingly called me back after my interview with [00:02:55] medicine and said and said, look, we really like you. Can you come for dentistry? I was like, [00:03:00] uh, dentistry wants to be a dentist. I hate dentists type of thing. My only experience [00:03:05] of dentistry was going to a local dentist pretending to have an emergency so I could get [00:03:10] out of school, uh, with a friend of mine.

Sumair Khan: And so I rocked up at that local dentist [00:03:15] that night, and, uh, I knocked on her door, and she’s like, oh, what do you want? And [00:03:20] I said, look, I need a note from you saying that I’ve been here a few times. You think I’ve got a really good aptitude towards dentistry [00:03:25] and I’ll make a good dentist. And she said, oh, shut up. She went to shut the door and I put my foot in the door [00:03:30] and her husband came running down. And what the hell was going on? Here she goes, oh, this guy, he just turns up with [00:03:35] his mate to get like a letter for scored. So he’s off school with the dentist and [00:03:40] and it’s completely. I’m not writing him this letter. He has been here a few times, [00:03:45] but I’m not writing him his letter, and he’s her husband. Just. I’ll write it. So he wrote the letter. They [00:03:50] were both like, um, he was an accountant at upstairs. Well, he wrote a letter. She signed [00:03:55] it. And I took that letter to the interview and a couple of my brothers Airfix models to pretend I was good at in [00:04:00] my hands. So, yeah, I got into dentistry and, uh, it was great. I did it at Barts. I was very [00:04:05] happy. Barts was a lovely place. And Mile End is just a mad cultural [00:04:10] mix. Um, it’s shocking.

Payman Langroudi: When you see mile in the first walk.

Sumair Khan: Out. You see it first time, you’re like, what [00:04:15] is going on? Yeah, absolutely. But the amount of pathology and disease [00:04:20] that you see there, it gives you a great experience, a really good experience, especially the medical side, [00:04:25] uh, in the first few years as well. And I’ll get.

Payman Langroudi: Serious when you got there. I mean, it [00:04:30] sounds like you weren’t serious before.

Sumair Khan: No, no, I wasn’t the first two years. I still was hanging out with my friends outside of school [00:04:35] more, and it was a very, very. He’s a dear personal tutor. His [00:04:40] name was Gary Pollock. Really, really nice man. Sat me down at the end of my second year and said, look, he goes, [00:04:45] something’s got to change or you’re not going to, um, you’re not going to pass, uh, on time. And so [00:04:50] he told me what I was doing wrong. I’ve moved into college then because I was still driving in from home [00:04:55] in north London, and I changed. So my third year I changed, got serious, uh, and I actually [00:05:00] liked oral surgery quite a lot. So when I qualified, I did find ocean training. I [00:05:05] was very lucky to be on a brilliant scheme with some amazing people. Rajaratnam’s Lvrt advisor, [00:05:10] or at the time, the TPD and I had Chris Treadwell, who’s a dean at [00:05:15] Barts now, uh, I had a Daljit Gill. I had some very, very amazing people. [00:05:20] Um, they’re still friends of mine today. And let’s talk about 96 when I did, um, foundation training. [00:05:25] Uh, straight after that, um, I was actually kicked out my house, so I went [00:05:30] back to Ground Zero. I had, uh, I had, um, made, I think £27,000 [00:05:35] that year and spent 29 on a car, uh, and then [00:05:40] took, uh, a Hindu girl home to my Muslim parents, Pakistan, and said, this is where I’m marrying. And they were [00:05:45] like, you’re out of. Door. So I was driving around in my car with all my belongings, uh, and [00:05:50] £2,000 in debt. And, uh, I had to find a [00:05:55] place that would housed me as well as, uh, let me work. So I was desperate for a, uh, what they called [00:06:00] an sa ho job back then with DCT. Now it’s called. And I got one out in Ipswich, and I ended up [00:06:05] doing maxillofacial training as DCT for two and a half years in, uh, [00:06:10] Ipswich, Chase and Barnet over two and a half years until my parents came round and my wife [00:06:15] converted and we were married. And then.

Payman Langroudi: Did you meet her at.

Sumair Khan: The year above me [00:06:20] at uni? Yeah, yeah. A year above me in uni. So we, I knew I was going to marry her in my foundation training [00:06:25] year, but I didn’t realise my parents reaction. I mean, for that generation, that whole, [00:06:30] uh, India Hindu and Pakistan Muslim thing is a big no no. Still, both [00:06:35] my parents came over in the partition from India to Pakistan and have vivid memories of [00:06:40] that.

Payman Langroudi: So you were surprised, were you?

Sumair Khan: I just felt like I underestimated how [00:06:45] deep it ran. They ran that resentment still, because especially because my mum [00:06:50] was a GP and she was hanging out with most of her friends are like like Hindus, Sikhs and like Greeks, [00:06:55] Turkish. All her patients are Greek, Turkish in north London, like she gets on with everyone. But then [00:07:00] this hit her quite deep. Like a visceral level. Yeah, yeah, a level where she was like, [00:07:05] no, I don’t want this for my son type of thing. And I was like, wow.

Payman Langroudi: So what made them come around?

Sumair Khan: Well, [00:07:10] my aunt converted my wife. Uh, she taught her how to pray. She taught her how to read the Quran. And my [00:07:15] wife was already, um, she wasn’t from a very strict Hindu family. They were her [00:07:20] parents, her mum. Her dad was a GP in Stoke on Trent. And [00:07:25] they had integrated. They had or he had given them all English names and they were very, um, anglicised [00:07:30] in their manners. And they’d gone to a Catholic school and their Catholic school. Background and [00:07:35] religious upbringing. She understood religion as part of that. It was not difficult for her to make [00:07:40] the jump from that to Islam, actually, and she understood it quite well and she was quite happy to accept it. [00:07:45] It was a it was a blessing. Otherwise we’d still be in trouble.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:07:50] she’s a doctor.

Sumair Khan: She’s, uh. No, she’s a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:07:55]

Sumair Khan: She’s a year above me at uni.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see, I see. Yeah. So take me through some of those first jobs that you [00:08:00] did.

Sumair Khan: So the show jobs were tricky because I was away from home. I hadn’t lived away [00:08:05] from home for my first one. The second jobs, I understood a bit more the politics, because there’s [00:08:10] a lot of politics in hospital jobs, especially between consultants. You understand the competitiveness. [00:08:15] Not so much racism, but a bit of discrimination. I understood as [00:08:20] well that went on and it was a bit more acceptable back in 97, 98. And people want [00:08:25] us woke back then to some of the stuff that was going on. I would you just bite your tongue [00:08:30] and just take it. I think.

Payman Langroudi: Also the general abuse of juniors, yes, the bullying [00:08:35] culture, let alone the bullying culture is.

Sumair Khan: Still there. Yeah, but nowhere [00:08:40] near as bad as it was. Yeah. Uh, some of the things that your consultant could say to you and ask you to [00:08:45] do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wouldn’t get away with that now. But the consultants have changed. That’s a generational [00:08:50] change completely now since those days.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I did similar thing. I did an oral surgery house job [00:08:55] around the same time, actually around 96, 97, in Cardiff. And I hated my life. [00:09:00] But at the same time, I’d recommend it to anyone. I would, I would, it’s [00:09:05] almost like going to the gym or something. It’s like a rite.

Sumair Khan: Rites of.

Payman Langroudi: Passages.

Sumair Khan: Yeah, you [00:09:10] have to have done it. You have to have that hardening or that quickening.

Payman Langroudi: Nothing fazes you after you’ve done a job like [00:09:15] that.

Sumair Khan: That’s exactly what I was going to say at the moment. I went back into general practice and we’re talking, uh, I [00:09:20] was working for one of these, um, original, uh, White cross was, oh, really? Corporate [00:09:25] in Barnet? Yeah, I got married. We’ve got a house, a flat, and, uh, I said, well, I’ll come [00:09:30] into general practice now. And the options were to go in, continue and do medicine to become [00:09:35] max fac or come in. Did you consider that I was I was still up for that even [00:09:40] when I was doing my in practice. But my wife was like marriages don’t [00:09:45] tend to do very well when, when people are uh, uh, do that. I mean, most Max surgeons [00:09:50] have been married at least twice. And so by the time they’ve done another five years at uni [00:09:55] with, uh, you know, it’s the socials and stuff, it’s difficult. And I understood that as well. Plus [00:10:00] the money, it doesn’t come so takes ages. It takes ages. Yeah. It takes ages to [00:10:05] specialise in things like that. And we were by ourselves. It was just me and my wife again. My mum was still a bit resentful [00:10:10] of the whole thing until we had our first child. And everything doesn’t matter anymore. But, [00:10:15] um.

Payman Langroudi: But so is that the reason? I mean, I.

Sumair Khan: Was very driven, I was very driven. [00:10:20] And I went into practice and I went to make money. And rather than Max fac, my wife’s idea was [00:10:25] that, why don’t you start doing implants? You’re good at oral surgery. You’re teaching oral surgery? I’d taken up a teaching role. [00:10:30] I always kept one hand one day in hospital. So even as a max fac, [00:10:35] I was doing locums, uh, as a staff grade. And I was teaching oral [00:10:40] surgery at Barts in London, where I taught mediation in Milan and people like that. I thought I [00:10:45] taught these guys oral surgery for seven years. I was at Barts. I kept one hand in hospital [00:10:50] always, and kept my oral surgery going. I was interested, so she said, look, if [00:10:55] you’re into oral surgery and you’re learning the sort of stuff now in practice, why don’t you do implants? [00:11:00] And so I got into implant dentistry in 2005. It was one of these [00:11:05] specialities where everyone thought they should be doing implants. So the period people thought they should be doing [00:11:10] implants Prosthetists think they should be doing it. The oral surgeons think they should have the right to do it, so it will never [00:11:15] be a speciality. So it lends itself very nicely to the generalist who can do oral surgery, [00:11:20] who understands peril and has done plenty of procedure as well. Yeah, you can just keep [00:11:25] upping your upskilling in those three disciplines and then add implant dentistry. And [00:11:30] I was at that stage in 2005. So that was nine [00:11:35] years after I, uh, had qualified, uh, when I started the MSC and placed [00:11:40] my first implants in 2005. So I’ve been doing it for 20 years, placing and restoring implants.

Payman Langroudi: So you did an MSC?

Sumair Khan: I [00:11:45] did an MSC at Warwick University was one of these private customers. I also realised you don’t have to go to [00:11:50] an ahsn, a proper teaching hospital to get upskilled and especially the [00:11:55] politics of being in a hospital job isn’t there, where you’re competing with others for like [00:12:00] cases or like trying to like round nose one consultant because he’ll give you this opportunity, [00:12:05] or this consultant doesn’t like you, so he won’t call you into theatres as much. None [00:12:10] of that mattered anymore. This was a very well known institution at university [00:12:15] that had was dabbling in, uh, healthcare and sciences. And they ran this MSC. [00:12:20] And it was absolutely brilliant. The patients were taken to, um, Harley [00:12:25] Street on a Saturday where they had their training centre, and we used to do the cases there under supervision. The [00:12:30] mentoring is how you learn it. And that’s what I understood, the importance of mentoring and [00:12:35] coaching and that’s, uh, that’s it. It’s I mean, since then I just it just [00:12:40] took off.

Payman Langroudi: So take me through that. My, my understanding of implantology is pretty basic. [00:12:45] But I get the feeling that back then, the surgery [00:12:50] was the main sort of thing that you play these days. Yeah, but you place the implants [00:12:55] where you thought there was most bone. No, that’s because.

Sumair Khan: I was an oral surgeon. So the oral surgeons. [00:13:00]

Payman Langroudi: The surgeons approved for it.

Sumair Khan: So the oral surgeons approach is to just raise a huge flap and look [00:13:05] at where the bone is, and put your implant in as much bone as possible and not worry about the angle. Yeah, [00:13:10] because that’s a technician problem or restorative dentist problem. Yeah. The prosthodontist will always [00:13:15] think of the occlusion first. Yeah. And the periodontist will always make sure that the bone, the gum, [00:13:20] the right type of gum is in the right place first before they put the implant.

Payman Langroudi: But are we not agreed on what’s the best [00:13:25] we are now?

Sumair Khan: And this is why you’ve got to have associations like the Adai. Yeah. Uh, and I’ve [00:13:30] got massive respect for Amit as well. Uh, a recent president and George now as well. I mean, [00:13:35] the guy does wonders to bring the whole profession together. So the speakers [00:13:40] internationally and nationally are generalists, periodontists, oral [00:13:45] surgeons, prosthodontists they all come together and they are all implant dentists. And it [00:13:50] is really, really good for the profession to have an interest like that rather than [00:13:55] just the restorative or just perio or just endo type of thing.

Payman Langroudi: And then even within [00:14:00] implants you get sort of subspecialists yeah, it’s crazy, it’s crazy. And where [00:14:05] and where are you on that level of, of I mean, do you what don’t you [00:14:10] do.

Sumair Khan: So I don’t I might am I, I don’t do um the zygomatic type implants. [00:14:15] I’m not doing pterygoid implants as much although I have done some recently under supervision with [00:14:20] uh reside uh, great mentor, great guy. Yeah. And Adeel Ali [00:14:25] is the other guy who’s doing them. There’s a couple of people who have made it a niche. Like there’s [00:14:30] a practice, in fact, Evo Dental that.

Payman Langroudi: Has all these.

Sumair Khan: That’s pretty much all they do. They put the [00:14:35] the all on four if you like. Yeah. Patients understand that. And there is a need for that. The [00:14:40] issue I have with that is a biological cost sometimes of taking healthy teeth out or potentially [00:14:45] saveable teeth out, uh, in order to sacrificing them or sacrificing [00:14:50] alveolar bone as well, in order to place the basal level implants and fit the [00:14:55] whole kitchen sink. And and it’s done. You’re done. Because everything in dentistry [00:15:00] fails. Yeah. It’s I teach all my trainees three certainties in life death, taxes, [00:15:05] and dentistry will fail. Uh, every technique you do, everything will fail at some point. So [00:15:10] where do you go once a zygomatic fail? I always think of that guy in, uh, Skyfall [00:15:15] when he says, look what you did to me, mummy. And he pulls his denture out and his face caves in. I think [00:15:20] that I don’t ever want a patient of mine to turn up saying to me, daddy and his face caves [00:15:25] in when he takes his denture out because his zygomatic implants fail. Zygoma has just melted away, [00:15:30] so I just that’s my limit.

Sumair Khan: So I, I do have people I refer to for [00:15:35] that. I was referring a lot of block grafting and sinus grafting until recently. Then a good friend [00:15:40] of mine, Victor Gurney, and me, we went on a course with us up in Manchester [00:15:45] and Prof. Right. Brilliant teachers, cadaver course and online stuff. It was [00:15:50] just at the end of Covid. In fact, we re-upped our skills or [00:15:55] reskilled ourselves in sinus and that since the last two [00:16:00] years have probably been my main area where I have been practising myself [00:16:05] and improving myself and getting more and more experience of block grafting, like [00:16:10] ridge splitting and sinus augmentation through lateral window in order [00:16:15] to gain enough alveolar bone to be able to house implants. And [00:16:20] majority of the time that I’m called in now to do surgery or people are referred to me, it’s for the difficult type of cases. [00:16:25] But, um, I mean, it’s it’s it’s not a niche as such, but that’s my [00:16:30] it’s the augmentation side that I’m trying to keep getting. Because what.

Payman Langroudi: You’re doing most.

Sumair Khan: Of right is what I’m doing most of is [00:16:35] augmentation cases. And I still have learning needs. Development needs. I mean, um, [00:16:40] the last three years I’ve been going a course in Dubai in [00:16:45] February, it runs alongside Adec, and we’ve been seeing people like Ramon Gomez made. I’ve [00:16:50] seen Ricardo Kearns and more recently Paolo Carvalho, and I’m taking the mentors [00:16:55] that teach with me on the SmartThings Academy. I’m taking them with me. I’m saying, look, this is the stuff we need to be able to [00:17:00] do. This is cutting edge. We have to keep inspiring to be better. I mean, what we do [00:17:05] is a very good level, and clearly we’re obviously more capable [00:17:10] and experienced than the trainees. But we need to be at a level where you can’t know it or [00:17:15] no one ever knows it all. Okay? I mean, I’m not even coming close. I don’t think even though I’ve been doing this [00:17:20] 20 years, I still feel like soft tissue grafting. Um, I mean, bone augmentation, [00:17:25] ridge augmentation, some of the stuff going on around the world, uh, internationally is absolutely stunning. [00:17:30] Uh, results people are getting. And they’re very, very talented surgeons, very talented surgeons. [00:17:35] We are limited here in the UK. I think we’re limited by the national health. We’re limited [00:17:40] in our access to that specialist type of training. Because, [00:17:45] because.

Payman Langroudi: Very few training places.

Sumair Khan: The National can’t afford to have all these specialists. If you look [00:17:50] at the number of specialists on the list and the type of demand there is out there for this type of [00:17:55] surgery, you’re never going to have to all just specialists providing this. You’re going to need [00:18:00] generalists who are upskilled to be able to do that.

Payman Langroudi: So look, when you did your [00:18:05] training, it made sense for you to do that. Msc the private one in Warwick. [00:18:10]

Sumair Khan: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: But if a if a young dentist today is trying to get into implantology, [00:18:15] what’s your advice?

Sumair Khan: I would say, think about why you want to get into surgery, [00:18:20] because it’s when you’re starting off. The first five years is not profitable at [00:18:25] all in anything. I think really, if you start learning because you learn through a lot of mistakes. And [00:18:30] mistakes in implant dentistry are expensive businesses. Yeah. So I, um, I mean, [00:18:35] like I said, 20 years down the line, I think now maybe 15% of my work is [00:18:40] dealing with mistakes. Other people’s mistakes. Yeah. Well, some of mine, very few of them [00:18:45] mine, thankfully, but mainly, yeah, I get other people’s mistakes. Foreign, um, dentistry. Referring [00:18:50] to me saying that this has fallen out or this broken stuff like that. And fixing implant dentistry mistakes [00:18:55] is expensive. It’s difficult. It’s expensive for me. So it’s expensive for the patient. Uh, [00:19:00] it’s very rewarding, especially if you if they’ve had it for more than, like, 5 [00:19:05] or 10 years. And then you can get them another 5 or 10 years out of, out of it that they’re [00:19:10] very, very happy. But it is difficult it fixing implant dentistry is [00:19:15] difficult. So if you want to get into it, firstly you can’t be doing it for profit. It’s [00:19:20] got to be because you want to be doing dentistry at a level where your perio is already [00:19:25] very good. Your profit flow is all understanding and skills are already very good and [00:19:30] you’re already all surgery skills are already very good, and you want to combine them to be able to provide [00:19:35] something that is additional to normal run of the mill dentistry, then [00:19:40] getting to implant dentistry and make sure you mean you’ve got the setup and the support around [00:19:45] you.

Sumair Khan: There’s no way I could do what I do without the team around me. My nurses, my receptionists, [00:19:50] both at the Woodhouse Practice, the Smile Clinic in Essex and Cobbins Brook Dental [00:19:55] Smile Clinic, and the one in Oxford. The broadcast practice superb teams around me because [00:20:00] they manage the patients when I’m not there. I’m only there, like I said at the Oxford practice [00:20:05] twice a month, the Essex practice twice a month and the north London practice. I’m [00:20:10] there two days a week, so that’s where my main practice is. But, um, my practice is this year, thankfully [00:20:15] limited slowly now down to oral surgery and implant dentistry because the demand is [00:20:20] increasing because not everyone does it. And is an issue with having, I think, [00:20:25] visiting implant dentists. Yeah. In your practice, everyone has [00:20:30] implants on the front of their. Yeah, on their brochures and stuff like that. But a lot of practices have someone [00:20:35] who comes in and visits.

Payman Langroudi: Who’s hardly seen the patient. Never seen the patient. Yeah. There’s no relationship. [00:20:40]

Sumair Khan: There with the patient. It is difficult if they don’t have a relationship with the team, the [00:20:45] staff, the nursing, the reception staff, they don’t. Then that makes it much more difficult. [00:20:50] And then the kit and the equipment, like I said, it’s all very expensive to set up and then people don’t like travelling [00:20:55] around with it in their car, I mean, reside. Last month I think it was had his car broken [00:21:00] into, had £60,000 worth of kit nicked. They just took two suitcases. They didn’t know what was in [00:21:05] it. £60,000 worth of kit. Well it mad [00:21:10] so yeah. Visiting implant dentistry. I’ve done it for a while and I’d rather not do it anymore. I’d rather [00:21:15] it came to me.

Payman Langroudi: So back to the advice. Number one be serious because you need the. [00:21:20]

Sumair Khan: Serious.

Payman Langroudi: All in or not. Because a serious dentistry.

Sumair Khan: Serious dentists, expensive.

Payman Langroudi: Expensive [00:21:25] and difficult and dangerous. Right?

Sumair Khan: And make sure you have the basic skills down. [00:21:30]

Payman Langroudi: Basic skills of perio restorative, oral surgery.

Sumair Khan: Extrusion and prosthodontics. [00:21:35] Perio. Definitely you need to understand how to recognise it, manage it and what how [00:21:40] to stabilise it and maintain it. Yeah. Oral surgery you need to be able to raise flaps, draw bone, [00:21:45] cut gums safely, raise flaps safely, draw bone safely and close [00:21:50] with sutures as well. Some of the times you see people taking hours to put sutures and you think, this is [00:21:55] this is not right. It’s not fair for a patient. It’s not right. It’s got to be.

Payman Langroudi: But then the education side, [00:22:00] you’re saying have a mentor.

Sumair Khan: Definitely. There’s no doubt that that is I mean, if you look at [00:22:05] the training standards in implant dentistry that will produce originally in 2012, [00:22:10] this was the A.D again doing brilliant work with the then FDP, UK. Now [00:22:15] it’s KG dent. But they produce those guidelines and they do review them every. I think they’re [00:22:20] due for a review in either this year or next year, but they have added mentoring [00:22:25] to it. They’ve said you should be on a longitudinal course, meant they’ve added mentoring, you should be [00:22:30] mentored for your first cases of any type. And they’ve also said build a portfolio of cases [00:22:35] and all of that. We’ve included in our diploma the course that we’ve designed. [00:22:40] All the diploma courses should cover all of that and the mentor cases especially. And [00:22:45] without knowing it, that’s what the Warwick University did for me as well. But now those have been [00:22:50] standardised. So all if you’re looking for a course to learn about implants, make sure that they are covering [00:22:55] not just the theory, because you can get a certificate by attending a year’s worth of lectures and [00:23:00] not place it in the implants. And we have plenty of people come on our course who’ve got that certificate. You can [00:23:05] do a diploma and place only maybe 2 or 3 implants, and not gain [00:23:10] the confidence to go and set up and start doing it in your own practice. We have plenty of people who’ve done [00:23:15] short courses, um, who come on to our course. We have specialist trainees in [00:23:20] post-war period and in all surgery who have done the implants in [00:23:25] these big courses. No, no, in their hospitals. Yeah, yeah. But because it’s so [00:23:30] sheltered and because it’s all done for them, someone’s holding their hand. Someone else did this, someone else did that [00:23:35] part of it. It wasn’t comprehensive care by you. Total whole patient care for [00:23:40] that patient. They don’t. And the set up, they knew nothing about it.

Payman Langroudi: I think the variability between [00:23:45] specialist training. Yes. You know I had a I had a guy ask me should you do fixed [00:23:50] course at Harvard or should you do it at Michigan. Uh, okay. [00:23:55]

Sumair Khan: Because Michigan was rated number one. Yeah. Uh, for many, many years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So classic Iranian [00:24:00] guy. I was at Harvard.

Sumair Khan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The name, the name. Snobbery.

Sumair Khan: Badge snobbery. [00:24:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And then, but then he said, then he put, set out what they do. And [00:24:10] on the Michigan course they were doing three times the number of implant placements. Absolutely. And just, [00:24:15] just amongst two very famous American universities. You’ve got such variability. Absolutely, [00:24:20] absolutely.

Sumair Khan: And one of the best mentors we have a guy called Viraj Patel on our [00:24:25] course, went to the States and did the NYU course, two year course in implant [00:24:30] dentistry. And his skills are phenomenal. Absolutely brilliant dentists, absolutely brilliant, [00:24:35] uh, clinician and a very good teacher as well. And he’s learnt all of that from [00:24:40] his skills. She’s gained the skills and the confidence, but came back here and he then got [00:24:45] mentored by myself, by Gene Kish, being part of the Smile Dental Academy. We’ve trained him up to [00:24:50] be a mentor as well, because now you have to have a qualification in teaching and education as [00:24:55] well as proven skills. You need to have pace. I think latest mentoring guidelines [00:25:00] say 250 implants, or at least done nothing but implants for at least two years. And [00:25:05] you have to have experience of teaching and mentoring, as well as the [00:25:10] indemnity for teaching as well. You can’t just place 250 implants and start mentoring [00:25:15] people and doing sinus lifts, for example. You need to have done a certain [00:25:20] number of lateral windows, for example. Gain the confidence. Had experience of teaching them before. You can start saying [00:25:25] yes, okay, I’ll, I’ll mentor you to do a sinus lift.

Payman Langroudi: What about I’m going to ask you a really unfair [00:25:30] question now, but I kind of like the question. Yeah. Go. What was your aha [00:25:35] moment? Uh, in implantology like, if you had to boil it down to one. [00:25:40] Yeah, it was.

Sumair Khan: When I was on a course with a guy called Thomas [00:25:45] Linkevicius who has this thing called the zero bone loss concept. Uh, [00:25:50] he talks about basket of indicators like apples. And if you get all the apples in the basket, [00:25:55] you will get zero bone loss around your implants. And the aha moment was when he [00:26:00] was sinking his implants into the subcostally about a millimetre [00:26:05] and a half, because the soft tissue on top wasn’t thick enough. So when [00:26:10] you raise a flat. You just need to use a period probe against the bit that you haven’t pulled [00:26:15] up and see how many millimetres of thickness of.

Payman Langroudi: Bias I have.

Sumair Khan: Yeah, basically because [00:26:20] if you leave it at the crest and nurse tissue is only two [00:26:25] millimetres or less than three millimetres thick, then when a restoration is fitted and it [00:26:30] re-establishes a biological width which they now call scat super [00:26:35] crest attachment tissue as that re-establishes, it will remodel that bone. And that’s why people [00:26:40] used to accept bone loss down to the first thread. Oh, and I was like, oh wow. [00:26:45]

Payman Langroudi: That makes so much sense. You you place the implant deeper [00:26:50] than that so that the tissues aren’t thick enough. If the tissues aren’t thick enough, so.

Sumair Khan: Then it will create that [00:26:55] biological width. But you won’t get bone loss down to the first thread.

Payman Langroudi: Oh how interesting.

Sumair Khan: It’s just it just so [00:27:00] simple. And he explained it so beautifully. And he’d been doing the research in [00:27:05] Lithuania is brilliant guy Thomas Linkevicius zero bone concept. You’ve got to subscribe [00:27:10] to it or read it, whatever. It is absolutely fantastic about a different materials that that repel [00:27:15] tissues because it’s all about longevity. People don’t actually care how many millimetres [00:27:20] of titanium you manage to get into their bone. They want to lift their life up and they want to see [00:27:25] something that looks like a tooth. So it’s a pink and the white aesthetics. And [00:27:30] in my case, that’s why I went back, uh, to the Eastman in 2011 [00:27:35] or 12. And I started an, uh, MSC in restorative. [00:27:40]

Payman Langroudi: Uh, that.

Sumair Khan: To. Yeah, I had to do that because I was doing implants [00:27:45] as an oral surgeon. And, you know, the Dunning-Kruger effect, you get to the top of Mount Stupid really quickly, and [00:27:50] you see all these cases coming back. They look okay when you look at them straight on. But when you look in the [00:27:55] pallets, there’s like pins and screws going everywhere you go. Hmm. Maybe they should have been placed at a different angle. So [00:28:00] I went back and I did this and I can’t thank enough. The people at the Eastman there was Dev Patel [00:28:05] there. Paracha, Pranay Sharma, especially Rishi Patel, these guys [00:28:10] were absolutely fabulous. Teachers at the Eastman on the restorative diploma did that with Jenny Kish. [00:28:15] They in fact took it to the MSC and that’s how they, um, kicked off their, [00:28:20] um, teaching careers as well. And I dragged them kicking and screaming to that, actually, uh, [00:28:25] but I finished a diploma because I already had an MSC. I did not have the will to myself with [00:28:30] another MSC. So I finished the diploma stage and I got what I needed from that to get my implant [00:28:35] dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: I know there’s a difference between doing an MSC because you want the letters after your [00:28:40] name to get a job. Yes, yes, yes or doing the MSC because you literally want [00:28:45] that education. You need that education to absolutely push yourself forward. And I think a lot of times [00:28:50] people do courses for the first reason. Yeah, because they feel kudos.

Sumair Khan: And interestingly, [00:28:55] you’re right, because the other kind of people we get on the course that surprised me is people who’ve been [00:29:00] doing implants longer than me. Oh, uh, and they turn up because they want to be they want a qualification [00:29:05] because they were just placing them without any formal training in implant dentistry. They were just, [00:29:10] uh, had been mentored and cracked on with it. And some of them just want to be updated [00:29:15] to make sure what they’re doing is evidence based. And some of them just want to be, uh, want to see what [00:29:20] the latest techniques and materials and everything can do for them and improve their practice. [00:29:25] So you’re right, some people will come and do our diploma because they want the qualification for lots of different reasons. And [00:29:30] there are a few people, the younger ones, who feel like they want to go on and do an MSC [00:29:35] so they can take our diploma. They can take the credits for our our diplomas at postgraduate level, seven [00:29:40] diplomas. They can take that onto a university. The cap points [00:29:45] cumulative accredited. I can’t remember what it is. Credits of something it’s [00:29:50] recognised. Yeah it’s recognised training points um for education. But they can take [00:29:55] our diploma and they can take the cap points and they can go to university, apply it and they can start the embassy. They have [00:30:00] to surrender the diploma. They do an MSC. And we had an agreement with, uh, Chris Treadway at [00:30:05] Peninsula when he was at Peninsula. And hopefully we’ll get that accreditation again so that we can do it at Barts as [00:30:10] well. Uh, so they should be able to go and apply to universities with [00:30:15] our diploma, hand in the diploma and their credits and get on to an MSC and [00:30:20] just finish with one year MSE. It’s usually cheaper as well.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s so interesting, [00:30:25] isn’t it, that this notion of, you know, when I say, gee, what’s an aha moment, I ask, I’ve asked several [00:30:30] implantologists, for instance, that question. Yeah. Nilesh who you talked. Yeah. Said something [00:30:35] about suturing. Yes. He said, he said for him it all comes down to suturing. [00:30:40]

Sumair Khan: Yeah. The closure. He’s he’s right. Some a lot of that. Um, uh, he’s [00:30:45] absolutely right getting the passive closure. Yeah. And you see that sometimes [00:30:50] when you’re teaching suturing and you see especially the periosteal release. So when [00:30:55] you need to advance the flap and you first see someone holding the [00:31:00] C, I see it with my foundation dentist as well, because you teach them that on beachheads as well. Flap design. [00:31:05] And when they first pierce the periosteum it’s only about a millimetre or a half a [00:31:10] millimetre in. To do it first. And they play and they see the flap just opening [00:31:15] up and that you see their eyes just winding up like, wow, okay, this thing is going to go right [00:31:20] over the socket. Now I’ll be able to extend that and that just understanding [00:31:25] that the periosteum is what’s restricting the flap from extending over and just releasing [00:31:30] it the way it can be released. That also, I mean, was it was an aha moment for [00:31:35] me. Yeah. Uh, when I was in Chicago. Uh, but it was always I found it [00:31:40] difficult to explain it, much easier to show it on a pig’s jaw. So I’ve always [00:31:45] said when we do our foundation, when we do our foundation training, I’ve got as many as skills like [00:31:50] days as possible. Even with the diploma, none of our days have no hands on element to them [00:31:55] because people learn differently. Some people like to research and read things, but [00:32:00] a lot of dentists like to touch things and see things and feel things happening before they [00:32:05] will try it on a patient, which is right. I think it should.

Payman Langroudi: I asked Andrew Darwood, who [00:32:10] must have placed thousands and thousands of implants, and he said something about 3D thinking. [00:32:15] Yes, and and look, it’s all of these things. It’s all of these things. But you’d [00:32:20] be amazed.

Sumair Khan: About the availability of Cbct has revolutionised [00:32:25] implant dentistry. Definitely. And I do some GDC work, fitness practice [00:32:30] work for you as an expert witness and, uh, um, clinical advisor for implant [00:32:35] cases. Interestingly, the GDC in its like kind of revolution [00:32:40] in about three years ago, um, the guy’s name, but he’s a brilliant guy. [00:32:45] The GDC, he recruited about 20 or 30 of us who are [00:32:50] established implant dentists to be expert witnesses. So he put us through the expert witness training [00:32:55] and showed us how to write a report and stuff like that. And he’s now we get the stuff from [00:33:00] general practitioners that’s gone wrong, because traditionally they [00:33:05] would all be seen by a specialist, or those cases would be the expert witnesses would be specialists. [00:33:10] But the GDC charter or the rules, if you like, say that you will be assessed [00:33:15] or your case will be assessed by a peer.

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah.

Sumair Khan: Someone. So you shouldn’t really have a specialist prosthodontist [00:33:20] looking at a case done by a generalist. So they recruited about 20 or 30 of [00:33:25] us and put us through this training pathway for expert witnesses. And I’ve seen a few cases, and you’ll be amazed [00:33:30] at the amount of people who will plan implants and place implants using RPGs [00:33:35] and using Pas. And I was trained in 2005, and I wouldn’t [00:33:40] want to place an implant without. Uh cbct. But you still get people teaching that. [00:33:45] You still get people on their courses teaching that it’s okay, uh, to take a PA roughly [00:33:50] measure clinically what a bone is going to be like, and then just place, place, implant immediately, [00:33:55] if you like. I just, I just medico legally. I don’t know where you stand with that level [00:34:00] of planning. I mean, it’s okay if you were trained that way and you were experienced in [00:34:05] that way. But for new graduates, a lot of the surgery will be cbct [00:34:10] and guided.

Payman Langroudi: We look at a lot of things in 2D when it’s an x ray like we were talking about, and [00:34:15] it’s different.

Sumair Khan: I mean, you can look at an OPG and we’ll see something very different than what [00:34:20] a new graduate would.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Sumair Khan: Because we’ve been looking at RPGs for many, many years. Yeah. We have [00:34:25] then treated those patients who are the 3D model of that OPG. And we understand that, oh God, [00:34:30] that was this. This was that type of thing. Yeah. When you see it. But then nowadays [00:34:35] you they can’t make mistakes and medical legal climate in this that we are in now [00:34:40] in the last five years with dental law partnership and what is uh, I mean which [00:34:45] is why the insurance based stuff is like coming up so, so much because the indemnities [00:34:50] can turn around and say that wasn’t safe. We’re not they have discretionary cover. They don’t have to cover [00:34:55] you. So a lot of people are now just gone with the insurance based stuff. Do you think.

Payman Langroudi: That climate of [00:35:00] the medico legal that we’ve got here is holding us back? Yes. In [00:35:05] terms of progress, there’s no doubt trying things.

Sumair Khan: There’s no doubt. But I mean, I take two [00:35:10] cohorts a year to Cairo to place implants that are planned by a professor over [00:35:15] there and his department. Yeah. The future university in Egypt. Yeah. Uh, and these guys can go there and they can place [00:35:20] implants. They’ll get it wrong. They’ll take it out and put it in again. And the patients are grateful because they’re getting the implants [00:35:25] are free. The implants are restored by their final year, their students and their post grads. But these [00:35:30] guys can go there without that element of fear. They’ve signed up to be trainees of the of the university [00:35:35] temporarily. They pay for that, and then they pay for the implants and they they crack on [00:35:40] and they place 1015 implants.

Payman Langroudi: And like in your practice, let’s say, I don’t [00:35:45] know, 2010 or something where you had a few years of experience. Yeah, yeah. What [00:35:50] you actually take on when the medico legal environment [00:35:55] is like this compared to what it was back then? Yeah. Have you found that [00:36:00] there are times where you think, you know, if I would have done that, but the risk. [00:36:05]

Sumair Khan: Yes, the.

Payman Langroudi: Risk is too high. But legally, there’s no doubt.

Sumair Khan: That the people.

Payman Langroudi: That we go.

Sumair Khan: And learn [00:36:10] from. Nationally. Yeah. The people that come here and teach and go abroad, like the [00:36:15] Ramon Gomez made as a Palm Pilot, Cavaliers, Ricardo Gomez, they have worked. [00:36:20] They have made mistakes. They have learned from their mistakes and they have got better. Whereas [00:36:25] here we are all fearful of making mistakes and it is a throwing [00:36:30] each other under the bus type of culture that has done it. The ambulance chasers, [00:36:35] dental law, partnership, all these things have done it. And I understand that they’re trying to make things safer for [00:36:40] people. They’re trying to get people their money back because they’ve been harmed type of thing, but it’s just [00:36:45] gone too far. Yeah, the.

Payman Langroudi: Pendulum swung too far. It has.

Sumair Khan: Got.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just Ricardo Kearns [00:36:50] wouldn’t have come out with all of the innovations that he came out with. Wait, if he was working here? Wait. [00:36:55]

Sumair Khan: We are stifled. We are stifled by by the NHS. Because the undergraduates. [00:37:00]

Payman Langroudi: Because there are rules and regulations.

Sumair Khan: The undergraduates have zero exposure to tooth whitening, implants, [00:37:05] facials, anything that the patient that that brings the peoples practices. Yeah, they [00:37:10] have very limited because they are trained as undergrads to do foundation training. And foundation [00:37:15] training is 99% NHS dentistry. So all the upskilling and the [00:37:20] stuff that will enable them to grow a practice, it happens after the foundation training so they [00:37:25] are stifled till then and they are still in this environment trying to upskill while not [00:37:30] being allowed to make any mistakes or being severely punished for any any mistakes they make. [00:37:35] Do you want to talk about mistakes?

Payman Langroudi: I yeah, yeah we come, we come. Nicely [00:37:40] on to my favourite part of the podcast. So clinical mistakes.

Sumair Khan: I [00:37:45] made it easy. I had a very very difficult patient. She had [00:37:50] a, an old lady. She’s in her 60s, late 60s coming up to 17. She had [00:37:55] a, she had her upper teeth, but she had a severe class two malocclusion. [00:38:00] So her lower jaw was set quite far back from, from when she [00:38:05] was a child. She never had corrected or anything, and her lower teeth had virtually, in order to be able to touch [00:38:10] her upper front teeth, they had just extruded virtually. They were pointing out those [00:38:15] tips of the roots were just hanging in the bone. Uh, and I said to her, look, you’re [00:38:20] going to lose these teeth. I’m going to place him. We’re going to have a denture here. You’re going to find [00:38:25] it difficult. But I need to take these teeth out and put a denture in to see what the bite is I [00:38:30] can achieve and where I can put implants type of thing for you. This is like five years into it. This is actually [00:38:35] before my MSC at the Eastman. But but I took those teeth out and [00:38:40] I gave her a denture, and it was going to be at least three months before I could [00:38:45] put the implants in for those three months, she came in every week to have that denture adjusted. [00:38:50] She hated it. And you can imagine it’s a massive class to the [00:38:55] teeth are like edge like that. So she just has to touch and the denture like tips. Um, I was like, this, [00:39:00] this is awful. The day finally came, I walked in and, uh, Saturday morning, [00:39:05] was it.

Payman Langroudi: Edentulous on the.

Sumair Khan: Blower? Yeah, I made her edentulous, so she just had the lower front, like three.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:39:10] it was like a freehand. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sumair Khan: So she was already on a losing battle. She was going to lose her teeth. Yeah. [00:39:15] So they finally came like three months down, almost down the line. I [00:39:20] went into the surgery on that Saturday morning. I said I can’t wait to for this lady’s implants because three months later [00:39:25] I can give her a dentures fitted or a fixed bridge. I think she wanted a fixed bridge. She [00:39:30] was set on that idea. She didn’t want a denture. And I said, that’s fine. So she comes in her first thing my nurses [00:39:35] say to me at the top of the stairs. I was like, oh, it’s like, oh my God, we haven’t got any bone. I was like, what? You [00:39:40] mean you haven’t got a bone? She goes, I’m going to buy some wire guide. I go, well, actually it doesn’t matter. She’s got I’ve [00:39:45] measured the implants so that they will fit exactly in. I don’t need and I can harvest [00:39:50] bone from her if I need to augment as well. It’s not going to be an issue. So we’ve draped the surgery [00:39:55] patients in antibiotics. Everything draped up of of numbed [00:40:00] her completely up. Opened the flap from lower right five to lower left five. Okay. And [00:40:05] peeled it back and made sure I’ve seen the mental frame and I’m nowhere near it. I’m going in between it with four implants. [00:40:10] I made the first hole and I said, right, can I have the first implant? And [00:40:15] that’s when my nurses realise they didn’t order the implants. And [00:40:20] I, they just at that.

Payman Langroudi: Moment they couldn’t find him.

Sumair Khan: They said, um, we don’t have the [00:40:25] implant. So what do you mean don’t have the implants? And they looked around and one of them started crying. The other one started, went into [00:40:30] a cupboard and started throwing out all these implants, uh, for other cases, saying, oh, we’ve got a four [00:40:35] by five, we’ve got four by ten, we’ve got a five by ten, we’ve got four by five. I said, put those back. [00:40:40] Otherwise we’re going to have exactly the same situation for next week for those cases. [00:40:45] And I just in silence. So this lady ladies are flat back [00:40:50] up and just kept thinking in my head, how am I going to word this to her? She knew something was wrong straight away [00:40:55] because the nurse was crying like crying hysterically.

Payman Langroudi: That would do it.

Sumair Khan: And I just sat [00:41:00] her up and I said, clearly this hasn’t gone the way it needed to. I’m going [00:41:05] to find out exactly why we don’t have your implants. I’m going to [00:41:10] find out what we’re. Long, and we will take measures to make sure it doesn’t happen to anyone else for you. I’m afraid you will have [00:41:15] to come back on Tuesday now, because Monday I will need to order the implants [00:41:20] and get them. And on Tuesday afternoon I’ll clear my diary. I’ll get you in. I’ll reopen [00:41:25] this place. The implants. She goes. I would like an explanation. I said, you’re absolutely entitled [00:41:30] to that as well. She went home. I turned to my nurses. I go [00:41:35] if she makes a complaint, that could end my career. And I just walked out of there. No nurse, both [00:41:40] crying by then type of thing. And on Tuesday she came back. She was fine [00:41:45] because it wasn’t that much pain, thankfully, and I just opened a flap again. Placed her for implants. [00:41:50] She’s been good for 15 years, Bob. She’s she’s had the implant bridge of lights, six [00:41:55] months a year, all paid. It’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Good story.

Sumair Khan: It’s a scary one.

Payman Langroudi: Because.

Sumair Khan: Story, it [00:42:00] tells you the importance of the team around you. Yeah. I mean, the [00:42:05] fact that they were crying meant that they knew instantly something had gone wrong. But they will never make [00:42:10] a mistake like that again.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, a lot of dentistry mistakes [00:42:15] and errors. And these are non actual clinical.

Sumair Khan: Absolutely absolutely absolutely absolutely [00:42:20] absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And it goes to show right that the training of your team and all of that [00:42:25] very very important.

Sumair Khan: That’s a good.

Payman Langroudi: Areas to end your career.

Sumair Khan: Yes you could. She made a complaint. That’s [00:42:30] harm that’s negligent.

Payman Langroudi: And ordering error. Yeah. Could have ended your career. Yeah. Yeah. Which [00:42:35] you know it’s sobering.

Sumair Khan: It’s crazy to think that.

Payman Langroudi: Now what did you look into or what was the error with. [00:42:40]

Sumair Khan: They both left it to each other. So I had two nurses both implant nurses. [00:42:45] Both were responsible, but they both left it to each other to make sure that along [00:42:50] with the side the lab work, the implant, the four implants were there. One of them thought the other one had done [00:42:55] it. One of them thought the other one had done it.

Payman Langroudi: But it never happened before, right?

Sumair Khan: It hadn’t. But this was, [00:43:00] say, 2010. Like I said, it’s nearly 15 years ago. So [00:43:05] it was only like five years after I had started. And this was one of my bigger cases, [00:43:10] like I said. And we had lots of cases lined up as well.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s also, you know, that perfect [00:43:15] storm of the denture didn’t go very well. Yeah, exactly. And in a way, [00:43:20] you were lucky. Yeah. Yeah.

Sumair Khan: In fact, she’s come back because she had a fall and I’ve done upper bridge for her implant bridge for. [00:43:25]

Payman Langroudi: Her as well. Okay.

Sumair Khan: So she’s come back and every time she comes in she goes, I remember what you did with that lower. And [00:43:30] my friend said, I’m mad for coming back to see you, but she comes back every year. Delight.

Payman Langroudi: Did you say something like, I’m not going [00:43:35] to charge you something like that?

Sumair Khan: No, no, I said to her, I can’t charge you any less because I’m charging [00:43:40] you the minimum already. And she said, that’s fine, but she was. I wrote her a very long letter [00:43:45] explaining how I was very sorry, and it was completely a failure of the team. I [00:43:50] hold ultimate responsibility. You mean at any point, if anything goes wrong, I’ll [00:43:55] fix it free of charge as a result of that. But luckily that’s 15 years down the line. It’s [00:44:00] a good one.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good about what? About in your expert witness role, can [00:44:05] you can you stuff that’s gone wrong that you’ve seen? I think [00:44:10] the one of the worst case I’ll learn from you know.

Sumair Khan: So one of the worst cases. So I don’t accept [00:44:15] all cases. Uh, some of them, I’ll read the brief and said, like, this is not for [00:44:20] me or I don’t I can’t see anything wrong here. So one of the least pleasant aspects of fitness [00:44:25] practice work is when the cases you feel are not really a case. So we had [00:44:30] a guy who was sent to fitness practice because a patient had complained that he had called the practice. [00:44:35] So this guy was like me and you sitting at a computer at work. His receptionist knocked on the door, comes in and said, look, we’ve [00:44:40] got a patient on the phone who’s in pain and can you see him today? And he goes, well, what’s the problem? And [00:44:45] the guy, then she went away. She came back and said, actually, he’s had the implant in Turkey or Romania [00:44:50] or something like that two weeks ago. And now he’s got a facial swelling and he’s in pain. And this guy said, no, I’m having [00:44:55] nothing to do with it. And that patient went straight to GDC, and GDC opened the fitness [00:45:00] practice case because they felt that he had at least the [00:45:05] duty to get the patient in to see what the problem was. Make [00:45:10] sure it wasn’t a severe problem. At least give some antibiotics or refer him on to someone who could [00:45:15] help him. But he hadn’t done, even though he hadn’t shown that level of care either. But he didn’t know this patient from Adam. [00:45:20] He anyone random just calling any random practice like that. And I felt like that [00:45:25] was a bit harsh for him to have a fitness to practice against him. Because of that, that patient, [00:45:30] the receptionist, could maybe have said, look, you’re going to need to go somewhere else.

Sumair Khan: We can’t see you today. You’re going to [00:45:35] need to go to A&E if it’s severe. So those things they could have done. But the worst [00:45:40] fitness practice, um, case that was sent to me was a blue on blue. [00:45:45] Um, so this is the visiting dentist issue I told you about. So a visiting [00:45:50] dentist had come in. Very good dentist, someone I know and very well [00:45:55] now, but he was a visiting scientist. He was quite well known and renowned [00:46:00] at the time. I didn’t know him that well, so I was happy, uh, to take on the case. [00:46:05] I know, like, there was no conflict of interest. And so I [00:46:10] was surprised to see his name. Go on. I know this guy. He does. He does a lot of implants. He’s quite well known. Not seen him [00:46:15] teaching stuff like that. And he had been invited in to do a case for a lady [00:46:20] by another, a lady dentist, and that lady dentist had then [00:46:25] seen the patient post-op to take the stitches out, things like that. And the patient was complaining. They were complaining [00:46:30] that bits of the implant were visible, which can be if you’re doing tissue level. Some of the stitches [00:46:35] had opened up, which can happen to any of us post-op. It was a big case. She’d had [00:46:40] teeth taken out at the same time, which is always painful post-op. And she came back [00:46:45] maybe 4 or 5 times within two weeks to say she’s in pain. She [00:46:50] was hurting. It wasn’t nice. She’s not happy. So that dentist, the one [00:46:55] who invited the implant dentist in, told the patient to refer him to fitness to practice well, [00:47:00] and that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Throwing them under the bus. Question.

Sumair Khan: Absolutely not. Managing [00:47:05] post-op pain, not being able to manage patients expectations. So [00:47:10] there was full on the dentist part as well. Slightly. But it was like I said, [00:47:15] blue on blue. It would not have happened if they had just got together and seen the patient together and explained [00:47:20] things to the patient together. It’s majority of the issue is communication stuff. Yeah, yeah. [00:47:25] When it’s when it’s, uh, implant stuff, then the implants just fall out. So when it’s clinical stuff. So they haven’t [00:47:30] managed the perio to the implants just all fall out. There’s a guy who paid, like, 20 grand for his [00:47:35] upper and lower teeth. And after two years, he was wearing dentures and then being sent [00:47:40] for cbct been planned on an OPG and everything failed. And even on the wiki [00:47:45] you can see perio and some of the other teeth. So you think that’s that’s that’s substandard.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So [00:47:50] was that dentist the female dentist, was she the principal? Yes. Because, [00:47:55] you know, sometimes the nuance is so important. Yeah. And [00:48:00] sometimes, I mean, there’s nothing like your situation, but sometimes we get dentists tell patients [00:48:05] to contact us when there’s a problem with the bleaching. Yeah. And. Oh, right. [00:48:10] Okay. Well it happens. So when I.

Sumair Khan: Say when I say the team around you. Yeah. I’m not just my [00:48:15] nurse, I’m a receptionist. I work with amazing implant companies as well.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:48:20] my point is my point is so some sometimes you call up that dentist and say, hey, what’s going [00:48:25] on? Yeah.

Sumair Khan: So it’s not the dentist. I don’t think it’s ever the [00:48:30] Austin Straumann noble. Whatever system you’re using, I don’t think it’s their fault. [00:48:35] But you want their backing.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. Yes, of course, of course you want to know. My point [00:48:40] is when when I call up that dentist and say, what are you doing? Why are you telling the dentist patient, [00:48:45] contact me. Yeah. The patient shouldn’t be contacted. We do handle it. We try and make [00:48:50] sure the dentist does.

Sumair Khan: Your dentist?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, because of that. But sometimes. Yeah. You [00:48:55] find that dentist. Yeah. Has got another problem. Yeah. With the practice [00:49:00] associate or something. And is under massive stress. [00:49:05] Yes. And you know we all know it’s a stressful job. Life is stressful now. Now the principal’s doing something [00:49:10] to that dentist or is pissed off. Anyway.

Sumair Khan: Very interesting. I was just at a talk, [00:49:15] so I went to an alumni event after 28 years back at the Barts, and there was a [00:49:20] speaker there called Gan who was talking about Black Box. He runs a company called Black [00:49:25] Box that talks about human factors, teaching human factors, and they talk about your capacity bucket [00:49:30] and, and in the morning, like waking up and there’s a bit of traffic or you’re late, someone [00:49:35] cuts you up. You’re already like on edge. On edge. You get into work and then your favourite nurse [00:49:40] isn’t there. Yeah, you’ve got a locum nurse you’ve never worked before, takes you slightly up to the edge. And [00:49:45] then while you’re doing a difficult procedure, the last patient turns back up and sits down because [00:49:50] he’s still bleeding and you’re like, the capacity bucket overflows. Yeah. And you start to lose [00:49:55] it. Then you don’t. You can’t manage other bits. So then if this patient comes [00:50:00] in he’s not happy with whitening. Then you say just call Payman.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah I think that’s what happened to it. I [00:50:05] think that’s what happened. That’s exactly what happened. Very well put.

Sumair Khan: Capacity. But people need to be operating [00:50:10] at. Well, if you’ve got your peak operating like like a bell [00:50:15] curve and the top is B, you need to be operating at a most of the day. [00:50:20] And people always overestimate how much time they can work at maximum [00:50:25] capacity in the day. And you should be working at a not at the top of the bell curve because you need [00:50:30] the capacity to go up there if things start going pear shaped.

Payman Langroudi: And I think for me, [00:50:35] if you’re doing intense dentistry like you’re doing, I’d say four days, [00:50:40] not.

Sumair Khan: Yeah. Or even just do a little bit of day.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sumair Khan: Just just do one [00:50:45] intense case in a day or do two days of dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: It’s hard when [00:50:50] it’s when it’s when it’s intense dentistry. Like, I’ll.

Sumair Khan: I’ve never done it. I’ve always [00:50:55] had one day teaching. Yeah. Uh, which is like my weekend, which is my day off, if you like. Uh, [00:51:00] and I can, I.

Payman Langroudi: Can just, I can just imagine this principal’s listening to this going, shut the hell up. Yeah, because [00:51:05] everyone’s really annoyed with all these young dentists saying, I want to work two days a week, but.

Sumair Khan: They’ve got it right. I think [00:51:10] they can see our generation. Yeah. And they think, I don’t want to be stressed out like that. And yeah, I [00:51:15] still want to have hair when I’m 50. I still want to be healthy. Want to be able to like, yeah, [00:51:20] go like scuba diving or whatnot. And when I’m in my 50s, I just feel like they want [00:51:25] that work life balance and they’re right to ask for it at the start as well. And I think start [00:51:30] as you mean to go on. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about when you first met Jen and Kish.

Sumair Khan: So [00:51:35] Jim was my foundation dentist back in 2000, I think 13, 12, [00:51:40] something like that.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, he was your.

Sumair Khan: He was my vet and my practice.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Sumair Khan: And I mean, there was [00:51:45] he was quite he was a King’s guy. So he was quite full of himself. We had to take all the mirrors out [00:51:50] of practice because he couldn’t walk past them without fixing his hair. And then. But [00:51:55] he was a lovely guy. He really, really humble. And what Jen and Kish were actually [00:52:00] part of, because I was part of what everyone thought was an elite, uh, team [00:52:05] of trainers. We used to deal with the March Ummidia scheme, so the people who didn’t pass [00:52:10] their finals on time joined our scheme. So all the other trainers looked at us like, oh, they deal with the difficult [00:52:15] trainees, what they don’t realise. And what I realised when I became a training program there and ran [00:52:20] my own schemes, is that the March scheme trainees have actually [00:52:25] already are easier to teach and and progress faster [00:52:30] because they’ve already had a massive knock back lesson in resilience. Yeah, yeah. [00:52:35] So they know things don’t go well all the time. Whereas you get September trainees [00:52:40] where everything has been rosy all their lives. I mean, the first time an amalgam comes [00:52:45] out with a matrix band, they don’t know what to do.

Sumair Khan: They’re like panicking, run around the circle thinking, what’s happened here? [00:52:50] Uh, whereas these guys know things don’t go right all the time. So they were [00:52:55] very actually easy to treat in terms of their egos and their attitude. [00:53:00] They’d already taken a knock. Okay, so I felt like these guys [00:53:05] both, but they also were very driven the way, like I say, I was driven [00:53:10] because I was kicked out of my house when I finished Foundation. These guys were driven because they felt like they were playing [00:53:15] catch up. Yeah, I’ve also Shahab was one of them as well. You know Shahab very well as well. Jafari. [00:53:20] Yeah, he was one of them and Nahum was one of them as well. Nihar Patel isn’t is a now [00:53:25] teaches a PhD at King’s and ended up. Yeah. So these guys already were very, [00:53:30] very driven from the fact that I feel like they were playing catch up anyways, six months behind and they had to like prove [00:53:35] themselves. So that’s how I met them. And they have not stopped. They [00:53:40] are still just driven, very, very driven guys. Really humble, [00:53:45] really charismatic.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sumair Khan: It’s difficult to describe [00:53:50] because charisma, everyone thinks is I mean, this guy is good looking. He’s tall, [00:53:55] his ears, he’s fine. He’s got he’s got this, he does this, he does that. He’s charismatic. But [00:54:00] charisma is not about how people think about you when you walk in a room. [00:54:05] Charisma is about how people feel about themselves because [00:54:10] you’ve walked in the room. So when you walk in a room, if you’ve got that servant [00:54:15] leadership style where you’re empathetic, you’re present, you’re there [00:54:20] for these people for their benefit. That immediately gives you amazing [00:54:25] charisma and presence.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, very good point. Very good. Because I think Majid and Kish, [00:54:30] you when you look if let’s say you don’t know them. Yeah. I mean yeah, I mean you see [00:54:35] the photos. Yeah. Well I.

Sumair Khan: Mean that’s a branding thing with appointing.

Payman Langroudi: Each other.

Sumair Khan: No socks, [00:54:40] the spiky hair and spiky hair.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And let’s say you don’t know them. You’ve never met them. Yeah. You’d get annoyed. You’d get [00:54:45] a bit wound up. You’ll have one. One particular angle on what’s going on. Yeah, yeah, [00:54:50] yeah. But then when you do meet them, you’re quite right. I mean, for me, the most interesting [00:54:55] thing is how serious they are. Yeah. Of course, very serious people.

Sumair Khan: Credibly driven, incredibly.

Payman Langroudi: Driven, driven, [00:55:00] kind and still.

Sumair Khan: Empathetic and humble with it.

Payman Langroudi: Great nation. Fantastic. [00:55:05] It’s a great. And they deserve the sort of the the movement they built. Yeah, [00:55:10] absolutely.

Sumair Khan: I’ve always been there for them. They’ve always like helped included [00:55:15] me when they’re doing something, uh, big or like I said, with the diploma and stuff like that where they [00:55:20] see my skill set would benefit them as well. They say, are you available? I’m always available for those guys, [00:55:25] always have an advice. And even socially, if you’re out and about, they’d always invite me. I’m a bit old now, but I still [00:55:30] rock up. Keeps you young, though, right? It does. It does serve as a foundation training job. Like every year [00:55:35] I get a new bunch of 25 to 28 year olds, 12 of them, to bring them into the general practice [00:55:40] every year. And I guess.

Payman Langroudi: Your spiky hair came from. Yeah, it.

Sumair Khan: Came from them. Yeah, yeah. Gene has cut my [00:55:45] hair once, I will admit.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me this about younger dentists. I mean, you train [00:55:50] so many of them. Do you can you spot early [00:55:55] on? Like how quickly can you spot people with with talent or with potential or [00:56:00] or am I framing it incorrectly? Do we all have talent and potential? But I think.

Sumair Khan: Everyone has [00:56:05] talent and potential. I think not everyone’s talent and potential [00:56:10] is clinical. I think some of them are more academic, some [00:56:15] of them are more social. They’ve got social skills, communication skills. Uh, some of them are, [00:56:20] like I said, more academic. They’re more into the theory and uh, and uh, and research type stuff. [00:56:25] I think it takes at least 3 to 5 years for them to work out [00:56:30] what they enjoy the most. But I said to you earlier when we were talking, I can’t imagine [00:56:35] anything worse for a dentist or a professional to wake up and go to their job [00:56:40] and hate what they do every day, especially five days a week. That would be horrible. [00:56:45] So the whole point of foundation training is to give them a taste of as much as possible [00:56:50] the NHS, a private get them involved in conferences. It’s a shame that our [00:56:55] deanery, the Thames Valley and Wessex uh area is the only one that goes to the BDA. Um, [00:57:00] this year anyway, a lot of the other deaneries see it as a conflict, [00:57:05] not conflict, uh, or like a commercial type two commercial for the NHS, whereas [00:57:10] it is the only union that dentists have. And it was actually very educational this year. It [00:57:15] was brilliant. You guys were there. We had Prof. Bartlett there and we had some fantastic speakers [00:57:20] there. Uh, from Shannon was there from uh, from guys as well. And the [00:57:25] guys. So it was brilliant. It was very, very educational as well as inspiration. And yes, they’re going to be [00:57:30] exposed to the commercial stuff, but what isn’t commercial in dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:57:35] majority are going to be business owners. Yeah, not just that.

Sumair Khan: I mean, they can’t even when they’re teaching them in the schools that [00:57:40] you can’t teach them composite and cover the computers with like a white tape to say generic [00:57:45] composite. Yeah. It ever says 3 a.m. or it says GCC or it says something doesn’t, you can’t. It’s [00:57:50] not possible to hide. If you’re going to cut teeth, you’re going to have to buy a burr from somewhere. You’re going to have to cut it [00:57:55] with like a stone and a chisel. It’s it. Everything [00:58:00] is commercial in dentistry, and you have to they have to be introduced to that in a controlled [00:58:05] way as well. Yeah. It’s, uh, it’s interesting how conflicts of interests are [00:58:10] always highlighted in favour of some people and. Yeah. And [00:58:15] rather than.

Payman Langroudi: Others. And you were saying your, your son has decided he wants to be a dentist. [00:58:20] Yeah. One of your. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And we were talking about did you encourage that. [00:58:25] Would you encourage that. And the general doom and gloom [00:58:30] that there is sometimes and I’ve asked the question in this room from [00:58:35] lots of people, would you encourage your kids to do dentistry?

Sumair Khan: I think if they show an aptitude [00:58:40] for it so they’re actually interested in it. They are impressed by what we do. [00:58:45] They would like to be able to do that. They can see the rewards in it for the patient and [00:58:50] for you, and they are interested in exploring that. Definitely. [00:58:55] I would encourage them to go and visit. So I’ll my my son is doing work [00:59:00] experience now. He’s actually training to be a dental nurse while he’s doing his intercalated BSc. Now he’s [00:59:05] doing his dental nurse qualification so he can come and nurse with us, takes the photos of our cases and I show him what [00:59:10] I was discussing with him. So he’s getting interested and he does want to do it. The old one [00:59:15] was not interested at all. He was like he had taken photos of us doing like, uh, full [00:59:20] arch case. And he was like, man, you know, he’s like, it’s just one aspect [00:59:25] of surgery or medicine that you’re doing. There’s so much more. He was his eyes [00:59:30] were much wider field. He was. So he’s like I said, just done a master’s [00:59:35] underlain, uh, in physics at UCL and has applied to do medicine. [00:59:40] So, um, I don’t know where that’s going to go, but we’ll see. But I wouldn’t force [00:59:45] it on anyone. There are a lot of doctors and dentists.

Payman Langroudi: The enthusiasm that you’ve got, I mean, it’s clear when you talk about [00:59:50] dentistry, your your eyes light up. Yeah, yeah. What’s the difference between you [00:59:55] at 52, you said.

Sumair Khan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Still trying to learn all the time. Still excited. [01:00:00] And many of us at 52 maybe stopped [01:00:05] learning at 32. Yeah. And just do the same thing every day. Yeah. And [01:00:10] you know why I think you’re right I think why why do some people really love [01:00:15] it and some people don’t?

Sumair Khan: I think you have personality types and you have [01:00:20] the culture that you’re around as well. So when you’re around young people who are learning still and [01:00:25] you can teach them and you want to learn something else to teach them as well, I think that is is a driver [01:00:30] for you to keep learning. I think definitely being able to offer your patients something [01:00:35] else and get the reward of giving them something else [01:00:40] apart from amalgam fillings, for example, like you want to be able to give them something really good that they will [01:00:45] appreciate. It’s got to be a win win win. It’s a win for you, a win for the patient, a win for whatever system you’re using [01:00:50] as well. It’s. A collaborative thing, but definitely it is an [01:00:55] attitude. It’s to do with your attitude and your zest for life. [01:01:00] And when you have to love what you’re doing, okay, I get up, I can.

Payman Langroudi: With you [01:01:05] just listening to you. Yeah, it seems to me like improvement is is a key [01:01:10] thing. Oh no. No. And you can see, I mean, even even in the five, eight years that I was [01:01:15] a dentist. Yeah, I got to a point where I wasn’t improving in particular in some areas. Yeah, [01:01:20] yeah. And then if you’re not improving those areas, you’re just doing the same thing every day. Yeah. Yeah. It [01:01:25] can get it can get terrible I agree, I agree. It took me.

Sumair Khan: A long time to start dropping bits that [01:01:30] wasn’t good at as well.

Payman Langroudi: Right, right. Um, but especially because, you know okay, you’re across three practices. You’ve got [01:01:35] the thing, you’ve got a lot of sort of different levels of things that it.

Sumair Khan: Means I’ve got people who are good [01:01:40] at the bits I’m not good at.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but but from the, from the, you know, when you assess your life. Yeah. A [01:01:45] lot of dentists are in one room. Yeah. One nurse who they don’t necessarily like. [01:01:50] Yeah. For the sake of the argument. Tolerate. Yeah. Yeah. They tolerate, let’s say the two of them, they like each other. Yeah. So [01:01:55] already you’ve got a situation where you’re in a room with someone you’re not particularly want to be in that room with. Yeah. Yeah. Let’s [01:02:00] say the dentist wants to do four handed and the nurse does for the sake of the argument. Or let’s say I [01:02:05] had a nurse who wanted the local radio station on the radio, or a.

Sumair Khan: Temperature cooler.

Payman Langroudi: Than [01:02:10] the temperature. Yeah, yeah. And loops would team. So you’ve got these weird, like, uh, yeah. [01:02:15] Tension already there. Yeah, yeah. Now the patient comes in and, uh, let’s say [01:02:20] you’re in a situation where there’s a third party who’s constantly telling you what you have to do [01:02:25] and can’t do. Yeah. Or let’s say you’re in a private situation where you’re not improving. You’re doing the same thing every [01:02:30] day. It keeps, you know, this question of why do dentists kill themselves? Yeah, I [01:02:35] think.

Sumair Khan: Upskilling isn’t just about. There’s a big part of it is being able to charge [01:02:40] more. Okay. So doing the higher level stuff so you can charge more definitely [01:02:45] because you want your.

Payman Langroudi: That conversation needs to be heard.

Sumair Khan: Your time needs to be more [01:02:50] money for your time as it what you’re making per hour as a foundation dentist should [01:02:55] be very different to what you’re making per hour five years later, and then five years after that, you should [01:03:00] be making more because as you get older, you can’t actually work that much. [01:03:05] You can’t put those hours in or as quickly or as quickly you can’t. I couldn’t see 30 patients [01:03:10] a day. Now, if I tried to, I think I would suffer. I mean, the moment you start upskilling, [01:03:15] you can start slowing down and charging your money’s worth as well. And and when you start [01:03:20] enjoying what you do as well, you don’t feel bad charging for the money because a lot of dentists don’t like [01:03:25] doing is talking money. A lot of dentists don’t like talking money with their patients, and they find it difficult to [01:03:30] charge. The younger generation are better at that than we are, by the way, but they still [01:03:35] will feel like unless they’re giving extra, they’re able to upskill and give more. They [01:03:40] don’t feel justified in charging more as well. So I think a lot of it drive comes from that being [01:03:45] able to justify what you’re charging and get what you’re worth money wise, because the [01:03:50] NHS, unfortunately, has not just stifled our development in terms of upskilling, [01:03:55] but it has demoralised us as a profession.

Sumair Khan: If you look at what we [01:04:00] get paid for, a silver fillings or amalgam, or even for a [01:04:05] composite or even for an endo compared to what you [01:04:10] can charge privately in Australia, America, anywhere in Europe, even in India and Pakistan, they [01:04:15] charge more for an endo. And it’s crazy. It’s absolutely crazy. [01:04:20] I mean, it’s been underfunded. A years and years of underfunding has [01:04:25] just demoralised the profession, which is where all the doom and gloom comes from. But the fact that [01:04:30] the upskilling is there so you can upsell and it’s all acceptable [01:04:35] now, it’s not seen as like you’re not seen as like an evil car salesman type of thing anymore. [01:04:40] You’re upskilling appropriate and charging appropriately for your time, and it’s not seen as a bad thing. I [01:04:45] think that has changed the generational. There has been a change that people understand.

Payman Langroudi: How do you [01:04:50] deal with the youngsters who are so scared of being sued all the time? Because I hear that a lot. Yeah, I. [01:04:55]

Sumair Khan: Do as well. And it can they can get frozen. So we actually have to stop [01:05:00] them going to the Edu and NPS coming in to talk to the FDS now.

Payman Langroudi: Because [01:05:05] it was scaring.

Sumair Khan: Them. They scared them. So they’re already scared. And then they would just do nothing. They’ll work like therapists. [01:05:10] Yeah. Like just simple fittings and scaled and polished because. Didn’t want to do anything complex. [01:05:15] Yeah. So what we’ve done is for foundation training, for example, there is a minimum standard [01:05:20] of complex minimum number of complex items they have to do before they do [01:05:25] it. So they have to do at least 12 windows, of which six have to be older windows. They have to do at least 12 [01:05:30] cast restorations of a certain foundation. Now we have this we’ve [01:05:35] had it, uh, satisfactory completion and foundation training. It was, um, myself and Liz Jones wrote those [01:05:40] requirements as a pilot first, about 2000, I think 15, [01:05:45] something like that. 14 is when it came in and it’s been mandatory now. So they have minimum [01:05:50] standards, and those are the standards that all the ORS or the POVs need [01:05:55] to meet to get onto the NHS performance list. Now it’s the same I see.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [01:06:00] we come near to the end of our time. Um, it’s been a massive, massive pleasure [01:06:05] to have the dawn of the small clinic here. I’ve been wanting to [01:06:10] have you for the privilege. I was going to ask you the same questions as we ask everyone, [01:06:15] please. Fantasy dinner party. Oh, yes. Three [01:06:20] guests, dead or alive.

Sumair Khan: Brian, would you had I had Mohammed Ali, the boxer. Uh huh. [01:06:25] Uh, just I mean, achieving what he did, having everything stripped off him when [01:06:30] he didn’t want to go to Vietnam and then coming back and then.

Payman Langroudi: And just all around.

Sumair Khan: Just [01:06:35] all around. Cool guy. Absolute legend. I had asked him winger then as [01:06:40] well, what are you, an awesome I am an awesome fan and what he did for that club is just phenomenal. [01:06:45] I mean, it’s still the Invincibles, it’s still not been done. And like I was a season [01:06:50] ticket holder that season, just absolutely brilliant, absolutely phenomenal. And in fact, I qualified [01:06:55] as 90 sixes when he joined. So because I had my career as of in the start [01:07:00] was.

Payman Langroudi: It was it was a beautiful time when the Blair government came in as well. And there was a lot [01:07:05] of absolutely positivity around it.

Sumair Khan: And then, uh, for my third person, I was I [01:07:10] was struggling, but I thought I might have Jeremy Corbyn in who? Jeremy Corbyn. Oh, Jeremy.

Payman Langroudi: Corbyn. [01:07:15]

Sumair Khan: Yeah. Just because he.

Payman Langroudi: Always is interesting. Yeah.

Sumair Khan: He always seems [01:07:20] to be standing up for the right thing. And he was also [01:07:25] ousted after being, like, labelled an anti-Semite in the media and everyone just [01:07:30] abandoned him. But he’s still there standing for the same things. And I was ousted as well when [01:07:35] I was at the, um, in the London, uh. As well. There was a lot of, uh, toxicity, [01:07:40] uh, going on when, uh, London in cases combined and I was labelled [01:07:45] as a bully and a sexist. So I made a little joke, and it [01:07:50] was just horrific. Um, what you go through when, when people are trying to oust you. [01:07:55] But I was very lucky the BDA supported me. They investigated [01:08:00] his role, and I was given an option to move, and I was able to reinvent myself back [01:08:05] as a TPD in Oxford and I’ve loved it. The culture there is so much different. And it [01:08:10] comes back to that thing about having the right culture and team around you, and that’s very, [01:08:15] very important going forward for anyone in any career to really make [01:08:20] sure you’re never going to get to a point where you love what you do and you do what you love. Unless you’ve got [01:08:25] the culture and the support and the team around you. If a team around you is toxic and just [01:08:30] self-serving Leaders rather than servant leaders, then you’re going to be in trouble. [01:08:35] You need to get out.

Payman Langroudi: And it must be a very difficult time.

Sumair Khan: It was it was very difficult.

Payman Langroudi: Would you [01:08:40] class that as the most stressful period in your work?

Sumair Khan: In my work career, yes. Apart from that time that [01:08:45] I opened that lady’s flap flap and I didn’t have the implants.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:08:50] the next question is a deathbed [01:08:55] question. Yeah. On your deathbed, surrounded by your loved ones? Yeah. [01:09:00] In many years time. What are three pieces of advice you would leave them?

Sumair Khan: So [01:09:05] first and most important is what my dad said to me many [01:09:10] years ago. And that is just get good at what you do. Don’t chase [01:09:15] money. Don’t get good at something because it will make you money. Get good at what you do and the money will [01:09:20] come. The second thing would be to get into a position [01:09:25] where you’re blessed enough to do what you love, and love what you do. Exactly what Steve [01:09:30] Jobs said is, the only way you can do good work is to love what you do. And the third thing is to [01:09:35] be don’t be afraid to make mistakes, because when you make [01:09:40] mistakes, you learn from them. And. Learning from [01:09:45] mistakes is how you get better. The difference between a novice and an expert. I tell this to [01:09:50] my implant trainees as well, is that the expert has tried and failed more times than you’ve [01:09:55] even tried. Okay, and I’ve had to deal with that failure. And that’s why I’m an expert, because [01:10:00] I’ve managed it. So don’t be afraid to fail. That’s how you grow.

Payman Langroudi: Continuous growth. [01:10:05] Word. That word. Experience. It’s all about mistakes. Absolutely. [01:10:10] That is what experience is.

Sumair Khan: Experience equals mistakes. Mistakes equals experience. That [01:10:15] Dunning-Kruger thing. I’m now climbing the second curve that comes up where you are [01:10:20] more cautious about what you take on, but you are much more come from a position of experience, of lots [01:10:25] of failures.

Payman Langroudi: How would you like to be remembered?

Sumair Khan: As a servant leader, [01:10:30] as a leader who inspired and helped [01:10:35] other leaders to grow to where they are now, like Jean, like ish, like Nihar Patel. You know, just [01:10:40] someone who they look back and when they think about or who helped them in their career, they go, [01:10:45] oh, it was him or someone. When they’re teaching a certain technique, the way you raise a flag like, oh, Doctor [01:10:50] Khan used to teach this, or Doctor Khan taught me this back in the day. I hear it sometimes and I hear my [01:10:55] my previous PhDs who are now trainers themselves when they’re talking to their trainees, [01:11:00] and they say that thing like the three certainties in life death, taxes. And I know [01:11:05] they got it from me. So I love I love just hearing that. I like inspiring future [01:11:10] teachers and future leaders as well, even if they’re just learning from my mistakes. Because I’ve got [01:11:15] like I said, I’ve I’ve been loud, I’ve been brash, I’m a type A or [01:11:20] Red personality and not everyone can work with that. So at times I’ve made mistakes. I swear [01:11:25] quite a lot when sometimes when I’m teaching, I’m quite aggressive. Like when I was at Barts [01:11:30] and the London, it was called Khan’s Kitchen. I had the, the what’s his name? [01:11:35] Gordon Ramsay style of teaching. So it was, it was just what those trainees [01:11:40] needed at the time. But now it’s very different.

Payman Langroudi: So after that incident, did you now did you have [01:11:45] to start worrying about your style of teaching or.

Sumair Khan: No, [01:11:50] I what I did is I developed, I had some coaching. The good thing about what hap [01:11:55] came out of it is they, they paid for these top um coaches to come in that deal with NHS [01:12:00] consultants. So they paid for me to have some coaching sessions. And I’m really, really [01:12:05] good coaches. And they taught me about emotional intelligence, personality types and [01:12:10] and that’s where I learned all this stuff about empathy, servant leadership and things like that. [01:12:15] And then I did a coaching and mentoring, um, degree in uh, coaching, mentoring and leadership [01:12:20] qualification as well with the Chartered Management Institute. But it is [01:12:25] absolutely amazing how many people get into those high positions and [01:12:30] have no idea how to actually be a leader and how to inspire the people around them [01:12:35] that all about themselves. It’s they’re still like just like an [01:12:40] inward facing rather than outward facing. And you can see the cultures in like [01:12:45] in some top NHS places as well, where it’s very toxic. [01:12:50] And it’s because the leaders don’t understand servant leadership.

Payman Langroudi: Institutions lend themselves [01:12:55] to these sort of problems.

Sumair Khan: Politics wherever there’s money.

Payman Langroudi: And yeah, but even [01:13:00] in a dental practice, you’re leading a dental practice. Yes. Of course. Yeah. I mean, even even leading [01:13:05] a small company like this one. Yeah. There are things that I’m good at. There are things that my partner [01:13:10] is good at. You build on each other’s. Yeah, but but but you know, this course that you’re talking about. Yeah. [01:13:15] I reckon I’d really benefit from that. Definitely. You know. Absolutely. There are times where I put my foot right [01:13:20] in it in communication. Absolutely, absolutely.

Sumair Khan: That’s there. I mean, if I could say a fourth [01:13:25] thing, my deathbed, I’ll say learn how to communicate with everyone. Yeah. Because [01:13:30] there are lots of different people. They all communicate differently. People have different backgrounds, upbringings, [01:13:35] just learn how to not just communicate, but properly on a level, touch [01:13:40] everyone’s lives positively. Because that’s what people will remember. You is what change [01:13:45] you made in their lives, how you touch their lives. If you made it better, if you made it worse, and [01:13:50] going around making people’s lives worse, that’s just toxic behaviour. You don’t [01:13:55] want to be remembered like that, that’s all.

Payman Langroudi: Will you look back on your career? If you had to think of maybe [01:14:00] one incident one day that you felt like was best. What [01:14:05] comes to mind?

Sumair Khan: Well, my first son was born. Definitely. Your first son was. Yeah. [01:14:10] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Because I knew it would change the dynamics for me at work, for me in my [01:14:15] life, for me, in my my responsibility wise in terms of growing up, but [01:14:20] also for my parents. Like I said, they were already.

Payman Langroudi: I found I found that very difficult, but it was.

Sumair Khan: Difficult.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:14:25] but I mean, on that day, I found that day difficult, I didn’t already. Yeah, yeah, I said that. [01:14:30] I said that on episode one and my, my son listened to it three years later, I [01:14:35] had to apologise to him. But no, I mean, you worked life in your work life. What was the. [01:14:40]

Sumair Khan: The best day in my work life?

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind? Oh, God.

Sumair Khan: Ah, [01:14:45] there were so many great days in terms of clinical practice. Like I said, [01:14:50] fixing things that have gone really wrong for people. So one of the best days, very [01:14:55] like a lady who had come in, she has got this hydrocephalus. This on my Instagram, this, [01:15:00] this. She’s got hydrocephalus. She’s got very smaller jaw and she’s got tube coming out [01:15:05] that drains this, um, excessive CSF. And she had been fitted with some implants. [01:15:10] Her lodge was very crowded, very retro, um, retro kind. And her upper denture [01:15:15] that she came in with, it would walk in the door before she did. It was that far [01:15:20] forward, her lips thing come over it fully. It was really bad. And she had had it fitted 18 [01:15:25] months ago. So 18 months she’d been a pariah in her room, scared to go out and practice. [01:15:30] And her mum and dad, her mum had come in with her. They couldn’t afford [01:15:35] the new implants or anything like that. So I had worked with the implants that she had had, and it was a specialist practice [01:15:40] in Essex that had done this for her, and she’d been back at least six times to try and have the [01:15:45] denture adjusted and stuff.

Sumair Khan: It wasn’t right. So I managed to give her a fixed [01:15:50] upper bridge with the teeth in the right place for her to be able to close the lips over it and smile. And [01:15:55] just the look on that lady’s face and the tears in her mom’s eyes up for me. Like this. [01:16:00] This is what? This is why I should be an implant dentist. This is why [01:16:05] I’m glad I got to a point where I could do that for that person, not refer her to someone who [01:16:10] could fix it for her. I could be the person that fix that for her. And it’s [01:16:15] immensely rewarding to see patients win like that. And it’s not about like, [01:16:20] disrespecting the what the work that had been done before. It clearly wasn’t what that patient [01:16:25] needed or wanted or could live with. And I could give her something that she could live with, and it just changed [01:16:30] her whole face. But her mum took from the way she was crying is like as well. I was like, wow, okay, [01:16:35] this is special. This is special.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes, you know, we’re guilty of not remembering [01:16:40] because we’re so in it. We’re guilty of not remembering. The teeth are stuck to people. Yeah, that’s right. Changing [01:16:45] lives. Especially in implant dentistry. Maybe you’re giving someone a chance to kiss [01:16:50] for the first time.

Sumair Khan: Just go out and eat and eat.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly. You know, the lives [01:16:55] question of it is what? I constantly have this conversation with my marketing people to say that, you know, [01:17:00] you can talk about teeth, you can talk about the colour of teeth, but they’re stuck to people. Absolutely. Tell those. Absolutely. [01:17:05] That’s the most.

Sumair Khan: Important part, isn’t.

Payman Langroudi: It? It’s been a massive pleasure, mate.

Sumair Khan: Thank you so much, Dawn.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:17:10] been an absolute pleasure to have you. Thank you so.

Sumair Khan: Much for coming. Look after yourself. Thank you. Have a good day. [01:17:15] Thank you.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, [01:17:20] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:17:25] Your hosts. Payman [01:17:30] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. [01:17:35] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me [01:17:40] and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to [01:17:45] say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about [01:17:50] subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think might [01:17:55] get some value out of it too. Thank you so so so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star [01:18:00] rating.

Nilesh Parmar: And it was for me. It was just a realisation that you’ve focussed so much on career [00:00:05] and the things. When I talk to a lot of younger people and I mentor now as well, one [00:00:10] of the things I say is look, don’t lose sight of what the end goal is and what you want from your life. Sit down and write [00:00:15] it down. What do you want from your life? It’s so easy to get tied up in the kind of Instagram realities [00:00:20] that I want. Private jets and I want to go this. I want to do car tours and all this sort of stuff. [00:00:25] But then you can only do that for so long. You need to develop those deep, meaningful [00:00:30] connections. You can’t just sacrifice everything for that. [00:00:35] You need to have family. You need to put effort into relationships. And that was something that I didn’t learn [00:00:40] until probably in the last five years.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:50] is mind movers moving the conversation [00:00:55] forward on mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. Your [00:01:00] hosts Rhona Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:01:05] gives me great pleasure to welcome Nils Palmer onto [00:01:10] Mind Movers. We’ve had Nilesh on Dental Leaders. Um, but fresh [00:01:15] off his interview with Steven Bartlett. Nilesh, thanks for coming in. Firstly, [00:01:20] pleasure and it’s much more intimate when you’re actually in the same room. Um. [00:01:25] My idea. Yeah, your. When someone, when someone looks at your life [00:01:30] from the outside. On paper, it does look delicious. Racing [00:01:35] cars, multiple degrees, practice owner, implantologists, [00:01:40] all of that. But we’re going to go now is what you’re struggling [00:01:45] with right now.

Nilesh Parmar: Thank you for the introduction. That’s very nice. And it’s a really good question. I love the [00:01:50] way you just go straight into it, you know. Um, what am I struggling with at the moment? You know, the [00:01:55] thing is the the life you see online, I think we all know that isn’t [00:02:00] always the reality, right? It’s the highlights. It’s not everything else that goes on behind closed doors. And I think [00:02:05] we almost have this issue of not sharing, kind of like the bad stuff that happens for me. Touch [00:02:10] wood career has been good. You know what I do I find very easy. [00:02:15] I don’t find it difficult. It doesn’t stress me out. I don’t find it challenging. If now that I’m, [00:02:20] I hate to say it, 42 going on 43 in a few months, 42.

Payman Langroudi: Going on 17. [00:02:25]

Nilesh Parmar: Acting like a 17 year old is Asian. Don’t raisin Asian, [00:02:30] don’t race. Exactly, I like that. Yeah, I knew I’d get some one liners from this is [00:02:35] is that. Now. I started doing my will recently. [00:02:40] And it actually, it’s really strange to see your life [00:02:45] down on paper. Like every asset, everything you have, just down on paper, it’s it’s quite [00:02:50] a humbling experience. And then when the solicitor who you’re doing it with says, [00:02:55] okay, so, um, have you got a wife? And you go, no. He goes, okay, um, [00:03:00] I’ve got a girlfriend. And you go, no, he goes, children, partner? No. Ex-wife. No. Do you [00:03:05] have anyone to leave this stuff to? And I said, yeah, my sisters and my nephew. And he goes, okay. He goes, oh, that’s really [00:03:10] unusual. And I go, why? He goes, someone in your position who’s amassed wealth [00:03:15] usually has a partner, usually has someone, and you don’t have anyone. And that [00:03:20] kind of hit me. That really, really hit me. I was like, shit. All these years I’ve been working my ass off. [00:03:25] And it was. And it wasn’t the pursuit of happiness. It was the happiness I got from the pursuit. [00:03:30] It was just the next thing, the next thing, the next thing. And then you sit down and you think, if I met [00:03:35] someone now, and if I got married, let’s say in 3 or 4 years time and [00:03:40] we had kids, would I see my grandkids, like, would I be alive? Or [00:03:45] would I be alive to see my grandkids go to school or do like their first fun run or something? [00:03:50] And I think that was something that I struggled with. It was that realisation of, you’ve done so [00:03:55] much, but also you’ve done so little, like, what’s your legacy? And that’s something that kept popping up [00:04:00] in my head is what’s your legacy?

Rhona Eskander: I think a couple of things from what you’ve just said really resonate in a [00:04:05] way, and I think it’s quite refreshing for a man to be speaking about these things. The reason why I say this, [00:04:10] Payman and I talk about this often, is that women often talk about the biological clock, so you often [00:04:15] hear them panicking about children, recognising that they have a finite time. But what I’ve come to recognise [00:04:20] is, is that men also don’t necessarily want to be really old dads, which is pretty much what you’re saying. [00:04:25] I want children, but I also want to potentially live to see my grandchildren. And I think that’s [00:04:30] something that we don’t hear men talk about often enough, and we just assume, you know, if you’re a good looking, successful [00:04:35] guy who’s 50, you’re going to go for a 35 year old woman. That’s fine. But as you said, when your kid’s ten, [00:04:40] you’re 60 and your kid’s 20, you’re 70. And sure, we’re living a lot longer, etc., [00:04:45] etc. but I think, you know, there is something to be said for that one pattern, though, I [00:04:50] think that I’ve noticed is that the older you get, the more picky that you become. Because [00:04:55] also I feel that your wisdom allows you to become more picky about partners. [00:05:00] I was having dinner with a friend yesterday, and we were having a little bit of a catch up about our university friends. [00:05:05]

Rhona Eskander: They got married when they were 2728, and surely ten years later [00:05:10] the problem starts showing up the cracks. You know, I’m like, how’s this couple doing? Oh [00:05:15] well, he works all the time and he’s never in the house and he’s been coming home at 3 a.m. and she’s just looking after the kids. [00:05:20] And when I see them together in the kitchen, it’s not even as if they like each other anymore. And then there’s another [00:05:25] couple on the verge of divorce. Because the conflict in the Middle East, [00:05:30] she’s Jewish, she’s Muslim, has driven them apart. Yeah. And you know what I think to myself, I think, you know, [00:05:35] there’s two sides to every story. I think you got young Payman. You got married young as well. So be interesting to hear your point [00:05:40] of view. But I think there’s two sides to this, right? Because if you have waited [00:05:45] till later on, which includes me and you, to settle down, you [00:05:50] develop language and wisdom that may help your future relationship. You know, [00:05:55] and I think that that’s a healthy thing because then you know how to relate to them. Make sure that you’re [00:06:00] not triggering them. You have the language and the communication basically around this kind of stuff. So [00:06:05] I think, you know, it can work both ways. You know.

Nilesh Parmar: Conversely, I think you also [00:06:10] become very set in your ways and you become very much a creature of habit, especially men. I think we’re very [00:06:15] much like, right, I do this, and especially for me, I’m so regimented in everything I do, I find [00:06:20] great happiness in getting up and knowing that my day is planned. I’ve got this, this, this and this, and in my head I’ll have timings [00:06:25] for certain things, not exact timings, but timings. So I’ve never lived with [00:06:30] a woman, I’ve never lived with a girlfriend or anything like that I’ve lived with. Why? Um, it’s a good [00:06:35] question. For a long time, especially when I was studying, I used to [00:06:40] see my girlfriend at the weekends. It’d be like Friday night, Saturday night. [00:06:45] And then she was gone, and then I’d reboot. And on a Monday I was back to work. So I had all these [00:06:50] work things that I wanted to do, all these things that I wanted to achieve, and the girlfriend just seemed like [00:06:55] a weekend sort of thing. I wasn’t willing to commit the weekdays to her, and it was only [00:07:00] recently, or perhaps in the last few years, that I start understanding that, okay, you need a relationship, you need [00:07:05] to have time. And as Stephen Bartlett says, you want deep, meaningful connections [00:07:10] with people. That’s the key thing. If you can develop deep, meaningful connections with people, everything else comes easily. [00:07:15] And when you’re so set in your ways, I mean, the only woman I live with is my sister, and we used to drive [00:07:20] each other well. She used to drive me mad, but generally we used to get along quite well. But when you’ve not lived with [00:07:25] someone, you don’t get to know them as well, because life isn’t going out and going on holidays [00:07:30] and going out for dinners and things like that. It’s that core familiarity you get when you live with [00:07:35] someone. And, and I think a lot of the guys that I know, I don’t know any single guys. [00:07:40] I’m the only one. I don’t know really.

Rhona Eskander: What within the Dental community or wider circle [00:07:45] or.

Nilesh Parmar: Both in my close friend circle. So in my friend circle and I had my 20 year [00:07:50] reunion from my first degree, and we went round and there was about 35 of us who turned up. We [00:07:55] went round the room and I was expecting everyone to be fat and ugly and dishevelled. I was really disappointed. They all [00:08:00] looked really good, actually. And um, and they everyone was like married kid, married [00:08:05] kid, married kid married kid second married, second married third kid. And everyone who went [00:08:10] round and it was for me, it was just a realisation that you focussed so much [00:08:15] on career and the things. When I talk to a lot of younger people and [00:08:20] I mentor now as well, one of the things I say is look, don’t lose sight of what the end goal is or what you want from [00:08:25] your life. Sit down and write it down. What do you want from your life? It’s so easy to get tied up in the [00:08:30] kind of Instagram realities that I want. Private jets and I want to go this. I want to do car tours [00:08:35] and all this sort of stuff. But then you can only do that for so long. You need to develop [00:08:40] those deep, meaningful connections. You can’t just sacrifice everything for [00:08:45] that. You need to have family. You need to put effort into relationships. And [00:08:50] that’s something that I didn’t learn until probably in the last five years.

Rhona Eskander: I think I’m going to challenge you on that as well, because [00:08:55] again, it’s a two fold situation. People that you don’t know who they are and [00:09:00] then choose to get married young, sure, they can form a connection, but then I would argue that perhaps they find [00:09:05] it even more difficult to pursue their dreams that set them up for the life that they can have [00:09:10] and provide for their family. Like you’re unlikely to say you marry someone young. You’ve grown together. [00:09:15] Sure, it worked out for a few years, but then you’ve got a mortgage, kids, alimony, etc. and [00:09:20] you have this dream of like leaving your job in the city and pursuing a Start-Up. You can’t really do that. [00:09:25] Does that make sense? So I think we have to make conscientious choices. Come on. Like what you’re [00:09:30] going to say to me that somebody that’s the sole provider, he’s got a wife that became a housewife, has [00:09:35] two children, say that he wants to leave the marriage because he’s unhappy, and then he’s still got [00:09:40] to pay for the house, the divorce, etc., etc. he’s not going to suddenly quit his job with stable [00:09:45] income to, you know, do a start up.

Payman Langroudi: It’s less likely to take risk.

Rhona Eskander: It’s less likely to take risks. [00:09:50] Now, I think you’re right. Like, have you both seen the deathbed thing? You know, about the [00:09:55] nurse that said the biggest, um, death. Do you know it? Yeah. So for those [00:10:00] that don’t know it, you know, basically a nurse to come out, she wrote a book on it. So I really recommend [00:10:05] it about the five, um, deathbed things that people said that they wished they had achieved in their life. [00:10:10] One big factor, as you said, is that they’d wish they’d spend more time with their loved ones. So you can interpret [00:10:15] that in any way that you consider. I think that that is really [00:10:20] important to nourish relationships. But I don’t think your only relationship in life is your [00:10:25] relationship, that you still have deep, meaningful connections with your family, for example. And [00:10:30] I think hindsight I mean, Payman chime in, please, because how old were you when you got married? 31. [00:10:35] Yeah. So how do you feel like on the other side? Because I’d say that’s fairly young, you know, to get married. [00:10:40] And do you feel because obviously as you got older and wiser, like, how do you feel your life changed, [00:10:45] how you navigated a relationship? What do you what’s your kind of perception? [00:10:50]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it depends on the particular relationship, right? So [00:10:55] you have a particular relationship. But I’m interested in in what you’re saying about girlfriends. [00:11:00] Mm. I’ve seen lots of girlfriends of yours over the years. Over [00:11:05] the years. Over the.

Rhona Eskander: Years.

Nilesh Parmar: Like over the years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:11:10] And so when and each of these relationships has failed before you’ve [00:11:15] even lived together. Yeah. So when you look back on it, do you see a pattern of [00:11:20] self-sabotage? Does it get to a certain point and you get scared and and push him [00:11:25] away, or are you attracting the wrong kind of woman, or are you attracted.

Rhona Eskander: To the wrong person.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of patterns [00:11:30] are you seeing in the so failure of those relationships?

Nilesh Parmar: It’s really interesting. So, um, the last relationship I was in, [00:11:35] she sat me down one day and she said, look, I don’t feel we’re making. I’m not getting to know the real [00:11:40] you. We’re not having that connection. And I was like, what do you mean? How did you feel? Yeah, I [00:11:45] felt a bit prosecuted, almost. I felt as if I was. But did you feel.

Rhona Eskander: A connection with [00:11:50] her?

Nilesh Parmar: I did, yeah, yeah, I thought I did, but. So she, um, [00:11:55] suggested doing something called the Landmark Forum, I don’t know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve been on it.

Rhona Eskander: So [00:12:00] some dodgy stuff about it too.

Nilesh Parmar: So it’s very American. They they really push [00:12:05] it. They’re very, very pushy. Yeah. Um, but you get [00:12:10] from it what you want to get from it, right? You don’t take it too seriously the first time I did it, and I’ve done it twice. [00:12:15] I walked out on the last day. I just had enough. You were like, done? Yeah. I was like, I’m done. And I’ve [00:12:20] got a very logical brain. Not a very emotional brain, very, very. It’s really hard to break [00:12:25] through to me for that sort of stuff. I’m like one plus one is two. I don’t deal with, you know, [00:12:30] non absolutes. And then, um, I did it and I almost had a revelation about [00:12:35] so many things, and it made me understand how. And coming from an Asian background where your parents [00:12:40] were, my dad, who was is a dentist, an orthodontist, did six days a week [00:12:45] working as and you guys know, doing six days a week, 40 years is [00:12:50] intense right in in what we do. And his main rhetoric [00:12:55] was because they were born very he was born very, very poor. And he would tell me amazing [00:13:00] stories about how they would save up to go to the cinema on a Friday and the ad, um, [00:13:05] seven brothers and sisters, they would save up, they’d buy one chicken. I used to get a piece [00:13:10] and one bottle of Coke and that would be shared amongst everyone. So they they grew up with nothing. And [00:13:15] his thing was just to work very, very hard. And it was just working hard, sheer, sheer, [00:13:20] um, willpower to be successful and to put money and to put the kids through education, etc. it’s all our [00:13:25] parents ever wanted. So I grew up just seeing hard work. I didn’t grow up [00:13:30] seeing deep, meaningful connections. I grew up just seeing work. And that’s what I emulated right when [00:13:35] I when I grew up, that’s what I did. I did what my dad did, just worked my ass off. And it was only after [00:13:40] I did that course. Then I started having conversations with people that I never had before. [00:13:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So explain in that course they they encourage you to phone someone that you’ve wronged.

Nilesh Parmar: Yeah. They’ll [00:13:50] encourage you to phone someone who’s wrong.

Rhona Eskander: They do that in like AA and all those addictions stuff. Like you have to kind of like [00:13:55] repent, like the way you’ve treated people. So I had to agree to that. I had a very.

Payman Langroudi: Strange conversation with my brother. But [00:14:00] go ahead. Who did you call?

Nilesh Parmar: I phoned up an ex-girlfriend.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, okay. Well, [00:14:05] you felt that you’d wronged her.

Nilesh Parmar: So I phoned up an ex girlfriend that I had wronged and apologised, [00:14:10] etc., etc..

Rhona Eskander: And did she take that?

Nilesh Parmar: She was fine. She was. I mean, it was a long, long time ago, but what was [00:14:15] it?

Payman Langroudi: What was the thing you’d wronged her with? If you if you’re happy to talk about it?

Nilesh Parmar: Basically, she was very much in love and [00:14:20] I just thought, I’ve had enough. Now I don’t want to be in a relationship anymore. I want to be single again. I want to [00:14:25] have some fun and be a lad about town. So I just ended the relationship when she was madly in [00:14:30] love, like madly, madly, because.

Rhona Eskander: She just she felt blindsided.

Nilesh Parmar: Almost totally blindsided. It’s like having [00:14:35] the best day of your life. And the next day somebody saying no, but just pulling all of that from under you. And that’s exactly what I did. And it was a really shit thing [00:14:40] to do. But I didn’t understand. For me, it was like, okay, done, delete the number. I’m finished. It’s out of sight, [00:14:45] out of mind. And you didn’t realise that there are repercussions when you’re in a relationship with someone and you do things, [00:14:50] there’s repercussions onto their life as well. And whatever you do, even after the relationship, [00:14:55] there can be repercussions on their life as well. Once you imprint on each other, you [00:15:00] are almost connected for quite a long time.

Rhona Eskander: Do you believe in karma?

Nilesh Parmar: Yeah, yeah, very much so.

Rhona Eskander: So [00:15:05] I feel because I feel like you’re talking about karma basically, in a way.

Payman Langroudi: But what what do you believe about karma? You. I [00:15:10] bet you do, right? I bet you I.

Rhona Eskander: Mean, I have a real innate sense of wrong and right [00:15:15] in a real sense of consciousness. And I often wonder, because I grew up in a my father’s side [00:15:20] of the family is extremely Christian like, extremely like Coptic Christians are basically like Greek [00:15:25] Orthodox. They’re very religious. And because they’re the minority of Christians in the Middle East, [00:15:30] they take it very seriously. And my father really wasn’t like that. And my mom’s Catholic [00:15:35] and my my father did like the blasphemous thing by marrying a Catholic when he was a Coptic Christian. [00:15:40] But my grandmother, like, made me feel like this. Like I’m going to go to hell. Like for wearing, like, revealing [00:15:45] clothes for like, not like. And I went to a Catholic primary school. So I feel like this [00:15:50] innate sense of wrong and right, like, did you ever have that thing, a kid where you, like, tell a white lie [00:15:55] or you wouldn’t do something, and then you felt like you’d go to hell? I don’t know, like I’ve had that really. Like [00:16:00] I really have that, like innate sense.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a lot of guilt in religion, but how does that [00:16:05] relate to karma?

Rhona Eskander: Because then I thought that if I wrong, somebody would come back to me tenfold. Yeah. So I [00:16:10] think that that’s what makes me think about karma, as I often think about if I’m impacting [00:16:15] somebody’s life in a negative way, it’s going to come back at me tenfold. So every [00:16:20] decision and often like people describe me as being a bit of a pushover. I’m very emotional, [00:16:25] sensitive. You know, this and I think, yeah, okay, I might be a pushover sometimes, but [00:16:30] my genuine thing is, is like, if I do respond with kindness and genuine [00:16:35] kindness, I do believe it comes back to me in another way rather than responding with like, aggression and [00:16:40] hate. And has that happened over time? I think that over time, the kindness has [00:16:45] enabled me to forgive more easily. And I think that forgiveness is a lot more powerful than people think, [00:16:50] because forgiveness allows you to move on with your life. You know, I don’t forget, but I forgive. [00:16:55] That’s what I say. I’ll be like, cool, they did this to me, I forgive them. This is their own shit that’s going [00:17:00] on. But I won’t forget. Therefore, I won’t really trust them anymore. But I just move on from it, you [00:17:05] know?

Payman Langroudi: So what do you. What’s your understanding of karma?

Nilesh Parmar: So I was always brought up with the good [00:17:10] from my dad. A good sense of right and wrong. Right. You treat people well, you do things as they should be done. [00:17:15] And you try and be. You try and do the right thing as a man should do, right? But sometimes [00:17:20] we always steer from. We always walk away from the path now and then it always come back. We walk away from the path. [00:17:25] And karma for me was just if you’re a good person, good things will happen to you. It’s very simple. It’s very black [00:17:30] and white. But sometimes it’s also that self awareness because you might be [00:17:35] doing something and you don’t realise how much you’re hurting someone. Yeah, and you’re doing it without even thinking about [00:17:40] it. And for, for me, after I did landmark, the conversations [00:17:45] I had with a girlfriend at the time became very, very different in my eyes. We connected [00:17:50] a lot more and we were having much more, deeper conversations. Not just where are we going, what [00:17:55] we’re going to eat, what we’re doing here. And, you know, just just, um, surface level, you know, you have like level one, two, [00:18:00] three, four, whatever. So we were more dotting around three and four as opposed to one and two. [00:18:05] And I’d been seeing this, this individual for, you know, 6 to 9 months. [00:18:10]

Nilesh Parmar: And only after I’d done landmark were we having conversations that I never knew so many of these things [00:18:15] about her. And then I started revealing things about me. And I’m quite private about my vulnerable [00:18:20] conversations. And you’re and especially with the girlfriend who you don’t, you have that [00:18:25] kind of old fashioned Indian mentality where the man has to be the man, right? You don’t want to give, you don’t want to be vulnerable [00:18:30] in front of your partner. But then it all just started to flow out. And I remember one night, [00:18:35] I think we must have spoken for 4 or 5 hours about everything and [00:18:40] everything. So literally that person knows everything about me and things that I don’t [00:18:45] think I’ve ever told anyone. And that was that kind of idea of deep, meaningful connection. I mean, we broke up in [00:18:50] the end, which was a bit ironic anyway, but that that kind of maybe I scared her off, but that [00:18:55] that idea of having that connection, you felt so much closer to that person because a, [00:19:00] the level of trust just goes up to another level, because you’ve told them all of these things about you that you’ve never told [00:19:05] anyone, you know. And that was one thing that I always struggled with.

Payman Langroudi: But so is that what you’re saying? Are you saying [00:19:10] the pattern of relationship breakdown in the past has been that you haven’t shown all of yourself? Definitely. [00:19:15] To your your girlfriend?

Nilesh Parmar: Yeah. You’re always hold something back. You’d always hold. [00:19:20] What do you.

Payman Langroudi: Think that comes from?

Nilesh Parmar: Um, a lot of it comes from, I would say, being bullied [00:19:25] as a kid. I think being made to feel as if you weren’t good enough when loads of [00:19:30] loads of bullying. When I was a child and I said I had a stammer and I was quite short and fat, and [00:19:35] my mum really liked me having like a big afro kind of haircut. So, um, so the kids used [00:19:40] to call me mushroom because I had like a big headphone, a bit like that, and I didn’t realise people would call me mushroom [00:19:45] and chant mushroom to me. And I was like, why mushroom? Some Indian thing? And it’s only the teacher said, okay, [00:19:50] they’re calling you mushroom. And I was like, why? And he goes, because of your hair. And I was like, oh, that’s really not nice. Um, [00:19:55] and I think you because of that, you became quite closed off. So as a child, I [00:20:00] remember I’d come home from school where the other kids were playing football and stuff outside the South End. This was [00:20:05] in South End. And were there not.

Payman Langroudi: Many Asians in South End back then?

Nilesh Parmar: There were in my class there was one other brown guy. [00:20:10] And then I would get. I remember I used to get a little Cadbury’s [00:20:15] chocolate buttons, little mini thing, packet of crisps and a little mini can of like [00:20:20] Coke, because go to my room and I’d watch TV like I wouldn’t go outside. And then I was playing computer. I was very introverted [00:20:25] as a child, so much so that I became very shy around women. [00:20:30] Um, the more attractive the woman, the more shy I got and the more attractive the woman, the more my stomach came out. [00:20:35] And then at sixth form, they used because I went to a boys school at sixth form. That’s when you had girls [00:20:40] come in, and I was sat next to one of the most gorgeous at the time, all the most gorgeous [00:20:45] girls. I literally just was paralysed, I couldn’t talk, I found it so difficult and this girl was lovely. She’d have [00:20:50] a conversation with me. She must have thought I was some stupid kid that had a speech impediment because I was just [00:20:55] like, uh, literally couldn’t talk to her. And when you have, there’s different types [00:21:00] of stigma. But the stigma I had, there was certain words you can’t say, and you change [00:21:05] the phrasing of the sentence, so you change the word. But the usually [00:21:10] that word doesn’t always make sense. So you would say things and they’ll sound [00:21:15] really weird to it, and that would get the more stressed I got, the worse it would get. [00:21:20] And then my gag reflex would kick in as well. So you’re almost like a nervous wreck at one. And [00:21:25] when I got into university, it just disappeared. Well, overnight. Why did.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:21:30] think dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Give you reinvented himself in university?

Rhona Eskander: Dentistry give you confidence? [00:21:35]

Nilesh Parmar: Both do you both right. And getting into dental school gave me confidence because I’m so hard. I [00:21:40] never got in. I got no offers, nothing. I got in through clearing. Yeah. My parents hid all the failure letters [00:21:45] from me. It was all like, shoved down the back of the sofa. He really got it. And I don’t think it’s gonna happen. [00:21:50] I was so strange. Nobody’s read to me.

[TRANSITION]: What’s going on? Yeah.

Nilesh Parmar: So I got in through clearing and, [00:21:55] um. And then turned out first day of uni, and it just disappeared. Because you’re right, you just. It’s [00:22:00] a new start. You reinvent yourself. And that I’d [00:22:05] like to say that was nice. And then it became nil. It was very too different.

Payman Langroudi: I remember clearly in Cardiff [00:22:10] on my first night in Cardiff, being this other person than the person I [00:22:15] was two nights before. As a sixth former, a lot of people reinvented themselves. I’m actually telling [00:22:20] my son to leave London for this same reason in case there’s an evolution. Yeah, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I mean, [00:22:25] I think like it completely depends. Like some people I remember very clearly, like, first of all, I had no interest [00:22:30] in the dentists themselves because as soon as I saw them I was like, these are not my people. I [00:22:35] naturally love people in the creative and the arts. I did English, philosophy, [00:22:40] chemistry and biology, so I naturally gravitated towards people that did like very [00:22:45] woo woo type subjects, you know, really analysing human behaviour. So I applied to the halls, [00:22:50] they called it the Harry Potter halls. It was called Devonshire Halls. I remember it really hard to get into, [00:22:55] and it was all the boarding school lot that the that were there and I almost I was done with North London [00:23:00] because, you know, it was like north London. I was like done with Highgate UK’s boys, done with all that, like, you know, [00:23:05] all the Jews, the Arabs, the Chinese. I was like, I want to go like completely opposite and [00:23:10] go into something like white boarding school, that Harry Potter type territory. And that was the kind [00:23:15] of experience that I had. And Dental school for me was very closed off. It was very [00:23:20] much like Dental people hung out with Dental, people dated Dental, people did everything, and I just hated [00:23:25] that cliquey ness of it. I just hated it. I had no interest, you know, I wanted to be around [00:23:30] diversity. I think that was really important. But what I was trying to say to the point that you were saying about people almost [00:23:35] reinventing themselves, there were a few people that came to university that had gone to school with [00:23:40] other people, and they were like, she’s nothing like that. She’s reinvented herself. But after two years, her true character came out [00:23:45] anyway. Not necessarily bad, but say she was a bit of a geek, for example, like the geekiness came [00:23:50] out after two years. So I think it’s not necessarily about reinventing yourself, it’s either about finding [00:23:55] yourself. But I think if you try too hard to pretend to be someone you’re not, it’s going to it’s not authentic, [00:24:00] but it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Someone sometimes it’s someone you are. But you couldn’t be be at school. At school, [00:24:05] sometimes it’s there.

Nilesh Parmar: Or if you’re at school and you’re the cool kid, right? You don’t need to reinvent [00:24:10] yourself when you come to university. Yeah, yeah, there’s that too. Don’t have that social pressure if you’re at school [00:24:15] and you’re the awkward fat kid that people wouldn’t remember, you’re in the [00:24:20] room, right? Then you you do want to read because you want to be something. For [00:24:25] me. I always want to be something called relevance, right? I want it to be relevant. If I came into a room, I wanted people [00:24:30] to think, that’s nice. He’s he’s relevant. You know, that was always a thing. Always had that insecurity [00:24:35] about just fading away and not being important.

Rhona Eskander: So do you think. [00:24:40] And I’m just going to throw it out there for you. Do you think that perhaps your overcompensation [00:24:45] for success and legacy was perhaps a childhood trauma because you weren’t fit, you didn’t [00:24:50] fit in to the school, in the schools, etc.? So the ability to really prove [00:24:55] that you were incredible, which you are, you’ve left a real mark on the industry was, [00:25:00] you know, also a mask for your childhood trauma and worth, as it were. And I’m just [00:25:05] going to analyse the situation and, and on top of, on top of that. [00:25:10] Okay. And.

Payman Langroudi: Psychology.

Rhona Eskander: And then I need to pay.

Nilesh Parmar: You like an hourly rate. [00:25:15]

Rhona Eskander: And then on top of that, you also, on some level [00:25:20] have not been emotionally available for a very long time and you think you’ve [00:25:25] been available, but there’s been a part of you that’s been like, unresolved and that’s why the relationships [00:25:30] have failed. So you just said there. Welcome to my Ted talk.

Nilesh Parmar: That’s fantastic. We can just go home now.

[TRANSITION]: Just [00:25:35] complete it.

Nilesh Parmar: That is that is so true. It was [00:25:40] it was. You take the emotion out of the equation. You take emotion out of the equation. You focus [00:25:45] on the in the black and the white. And then you can make things all right. What’s tangible. You can do this, you can [00:25:50] do that whatever it is. And yeah, I was closed off. And I’m sure if any of my ex-girlfriends [00:25:55] are listening to this, they’re all probably thinking, that’s so true.

[TRANSITION]: I knew he was like this.

Nilesh Parmar: And [00:26:00] I think it was only and I think the other thing was, is that and also [00:26:05] the after lockdown, I decided to do some more media work, right, to do some more TV, [00:26:10] radio, etc. that I hadn’t done before. And I started to do it. And the only people who are really doing it was you [00:26:15] and Mila. You’re probably much the only two who did a lot of TV and media work, and I was like, I quite like that. I’d quite like to do [00:26:20] that. So I started doing some and then the Bartlett gig came up and a few other gigs came [00:26:25] up and I was like, okay. And then I think I got to that stage. I was like, you know what? I think I’m I’ve [00:26:30] reached my I’ve reached this level of success that I want, like, I’m happy with. Yeah, I [00:26:35] don’t want more.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. So true.

Nilesh Parmar: And it was materialistic possessions. I was like, if [00:26:40] I bought another Ferrari right. Would it make any difference? I don’t have time to drive [00:26:45] the ones I have. If I bought another watch or another.

[TRANSITION]: Or another practice. Yeah. Yeah.

Nilesh Parmar: It doesn’t make [00:26:50] a difference. And it was, it was, it was, you know, a lot of the revelations when I was researching the Steven Bartlett thing [00:26:55] and when he was talking to billionaires, etc., and you know, how much is enough [00:27:00] and you have that Pavlovian need. You want food, shelter, accommodation, right? When you have [00:27:05] that, everything else is a positive. Everything else is just on top. And there’s one thing he said, he goes, do [00:27:10] you think a billionaire is happier when he when he changes in his 80 foot yacht [00:27:15] for 100 foot yacht, right. It doesn’t make any difference, right? If you go from earning two [00:27:20] grand to earning 60 grand, that’s a big difference. But if you go from earning 1 [00:27:25] million to earning 2 million, is it really going to make much of a difference to what you do in the morning? No, [00:27:30] does not make that much difference. So now that I feel as if the pressure is [00:27:35] off me in terms of the having to prove yourself right now that I don’t feel that’s [00:27:40] there anymore, that’s now where I’m like, okay, right, let’s concentrate on relationships, let’s concentrate on my friends and [00:27:45] become so much closer to some of my closer friends or my inner circle [00:27:50] than I ever have, you know, because I don’t have that pressure of having to prove myself anymore because I [00:27:55] am who I am now. And the people that are, they love me. They love me for who I am. Whereas before [00:28:00] I felt as if I had to be successful in order to get any attention, order to matter. When [00:28:05] I walked into a room where I don’t feel that pressure anymore. But you could only do that by going through the journey. [00:28:10] If I hadn’t gone through that journey, then I’d still be that kid with the stammer.

Rhona Eskander: But [00:28:15] that’s the thing. That’s why I think sometimes that we’re so hard on ourselves about the things that we should [00:28:20] and shouldn’t have done. And I’m like, I’m similar to you in a way, because like, should I have done this earlier? [00:28:25] Why didn’t I do it? And I was the same as you. I was like, when I reached this amount of followers, [00:28:30] when I reached, and I still really bad at that. And like when I do an ITV gig, a [00:28:35] makeover program, this, this, this. And I think deep down it was like maybe my I will [00:28:40] be seen and my worth will be enough. That’s pretty much why I think I was doing that. If I really if [00:28:45] I really think about it, obviously, you know, there’s the altruistic side, I wanted to help people, etc. [00:28:50] but then I also thought that it would constantly having these goals would make me feel. And then like you said, you get it. [00:28:55] I have my practice in Chelsea, expanded my team. I’ve completed media. Do you know what I mean? [00:29:00] Like what more. And I think that’s when you have to go on this inward journey. My I have a I have [00:29:05] a coach and he’s amazing. And he showed me two mountains and he said, there’s one mountain that people climb, right? And [00:29:10] they think that those things would make them happy. So on the way to the top, it’s all the materialistic [00:29:15] things, all the external stuff that we think about, and then we reach the top and we’re like, it’s actually not that [00:29:20] fucking great up here.

Rhona Eskander: It’s not that great up here. So what we do is we then start on a second [00:29:25] mountain, and the second mountain is all about the internal stuff, and that’s somewhat more challenging. And [00:29:30] I feel like it’s important. What I do want to ask you is, do you think that because I’ve [00:29:35] known you for a long time, the less you know, you helped me when I was like a nobody dentist. You know, you took your time out [00:29:40] because, you know, I was a very ambitious, you know, young dentist. And I’m always grateful for those times you take, [00:29:45] you know, to meet me for coffee or, you know, try to guide me through different things. There’s [00:29:50] been a change. I feel like you’re definitely on a different journey from, like, that man that I spoke to, [00:29:55] like seven years ago or whatever. Do you think that’s also because people have been having more [00:30:00] conversations, like, now we have access to these conversations. You know, for example, Bartlett talks [00:30:05] about this stuff all the time, podcasts in general. You’ve got Louis. How’s that? All these different people, do [00:30:10] you think that? It has been. That has been a change, particularly within the male circuit [00:30:15] of men talking about their emotions and their relationships and their struggles.

Nilesh Parmar: The before [00:30:20] you know, when we first started talking, men [00:30:25] didn’t show vulnerability. They did and [00:30:30] our fathers didn’t. Um, and the men that I looked up to, they [00:30:35] didn’t show vulnerability. They’re very macho, macho men. And we always thought that if you’re vulnerable, then, you know, [00:30:40] you’re a little bit, you know, you’re a bit of a wet blanket or whatever. And now you [00:30:45] have so many successful men, successful not only in a career perspective, but [00:30:50] in a relationship perspective, family, men, etc., etc. if you do show vulnerability. And [00:30:55] I think that has been a big shift, right? And when I look at my [00:31:00] social media, I cringe when I look at my social media like five, six, seven years ago. So bad. But when [00:31:05] you look at things now, there’s so many more men sharing things or being vulnerable [00:31:10] and sharing intimate things in their lives and saying, look, I have a weak spot. This [00:31:15] is my weak spot, right? This is an area for me that I’m not good at. This is something that I struggle [00:31:20] with, right? And they’re willing to share that with people. You never had that before. And it’s [00:31:25] those kind of trailblazing men who said it’s okay. And you remember that the [00:31:30] thing on this clothing brand that said, boys get sad too?

[TRANSITION]: Yes. Why do.

Rhona Eskander: I feel [00:31:35] like I know.

[TRANSITION]: That?

Nilesh Parmar: So that was a big movement, basically. Um, I don’t remember the guy. [00:31:40] It became quite popular and that was resonated with me because [00:31:45] as a man, if you were going to cry, right, if you were getting really upset about something, what do you do? You’d. For me, [00:31:50] I’d almost leave the room, go to the bathroom, have a cry and come back and be like, hey, yeah, I’m fine, let’s do this. [00:31:55] Whereas now I don’t think there’s anything wrong. So I’ve, I was thinking, have I did I ever cry in front [00:32:00] of a girlfriend? Like that for me is a big sense of vulnerability of course. And [00:32:05] yeah, I have, but only probably the last in the last three, three years or so. Would [00:32:10] I even entertain? Yeah. Because before you would never do that. And you are right. There’s been [00:32:15] there’s been a paradigm shift in men who can now be vulnerable and say, look, this [00:32:20] is an emotive subject for me. I can talk about it and I can show that emotion. And I think you [00:32:25] are right. As people like Bartlett, etc., who have pushed that agenda forward for us, but the whole boys get [00:32:30] sad. Two thing I think was a really powerful movement. And now we know it’s Men’s Health Awareness Month. And going [00:32:35] back to some of the things I’ve said, especially on some of the like, Asian Man podcasts. So I did [00:32:40] one which was aimed at young Asian male professionals who have an intense [00:32:45] pressure to be successful, to do this, to do that, to do that.

Rhona Eskander: And similar to Middle Eastern. [00:32:50]

Nilesh Parmar: Similar to Middle Eastern. Yeah. And um, one of the the things that we spoke about was [00:32:55] that mental health amongst young or South Asian males [00:33:00] is really around suicide rates for men are so much higher than women. Of course [00:33:05] we know, and my age is the peak age for men to commit suicide. And amongst South [00:33:10] Asian males, it’s even higher than anyone else. And it’s because they put so much pressure on themselves [00:33:15] to be something right that when they can’t achieve it because life [00:33:20] is tough, life is hard, right? We know that we’ve all been very fortunate and very lucky to be in the position that we are, [00:33:25] and we’ve all had help, right? We’ve all had a good education and we’ve all been [00:33:30] able to eat when we needed to eat. We’ve all had, you know, a roof over our heads. But for those people who don’t quite make [00:33:35] it in their eyes, a lot of them do choose to take their own lives. And in this country, we don’t [00:33:40] really cater for mental health as well. It was only recently did I consider going to therapy, and there’s a very good friend of [00:33:45] mine who has been having therapy and we’ve been discussing it, and I was like, maybe that’s [00:33:50] something I would consider. And I have done a few sessions and it has been really, really interesting just to learn about [00:33:55] yourself because you spend your life learning about what we do, learning about the head, the neck, the mouth, [00:34:00] bone pathology, everything but your own self. I never really knew myself [00:34:05] and that was something that I’m learning now.

Rhona Eskander: I spend thousands [00:34:10] and thousands of pounds on my inner self when Payman. [00:34:15] When I first approached Payman about this mental health podcast, he was like absolute rubbish. No one’s going to listen [00:34:20] to it. And then I re-approached him. Yes, don’t give me that look incorrect. And um, and uh. [00:34:25]

[TRANSITION]: And uh, incorrect information.

Rhona Eskander: And then you know what he really saw? That was something. [00:34:30] And I think particularly within the Dental arena, like mental health is rife. But I also feel like people don’t [00:34:35] have the awareness to know they’re going through something. And I think when I really think about it, I think I [00:34:40] started having mental health stuff since I was like 11. I had been in and out of therapy since I was like 21, [00:34:45] I would say, and I had a really crappy therapist for years, but I was like, is this what therapy [00:34:50] is? And how does that make you feel? I don’t know, you tell me.

[TRANSITION]: How it makes.

Rhona Eskander: Me feel that way. And [00:34:55] then it wasn’t until I found my current therapist who we had on this podcast, Ella, who also spoke at [00:35:00] his event, the most recent one who I introduced him to and I think like half the Dental arena [00:35:05] now use her just because, like she’s so brilliant. And having a good therapist is almost like having a good dentist. [00:35:10] Like you’re like, you get me? You explain everything and it’s so great and you know, your brain [00:35:15] is like, it’s a muscle, right? As in, like if you are exercising it [00:35:20] in the way you can impact the output. So I think it’s been one [00:35:25] of the most beneficial things. But what I have noticed, I have an Asian friend. And her brother [00:35:30] wanted to go to therapy, and she’d completely shamed him for it because [00:35:35] it was not. Not in a way that she loved her brother, but she was like, you’re wasting your money. And [00:35:40] how can you know like this? How can you have therapy? There’s nothing wrong with you. Well, you don’t have to [00:35:45] have a therapist to have something imminently wrong with you. You know, that’s the whole point. Like, let’s take away that stigma.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:35:50] think that the sort of, you know, the way you’ve described [00:35:55] it is that you you weren’t fully open with [00:36:00] with relationships, you weren’t fully open with yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and now [00:36:05] you’re now things are more normalised and you can talk about it and all that. Do you think that sort of the evolution. [00:36:10] Of let’s let’s just call it minorities for [00:36:15] the sake of the argument here. Insomuch as, you know, it mustn’t [00:36:20] be that you’re you live the same experience as your dad. You [00:36:25] know, it has to evolve. It has to go forward. But there’s for me a tension [00:36:30] between keeping your identity as a as a young boy. Not [00:36:35] anymore. An old man like that.

[TRANSITION]: An old.

Rhona Eskander: Man agent.

Payman Langroudi: In [00:36:40] keeping your identity as what it is, but also evolving [00:36:45] intellectually. And, you know, in a way, in a way, I understand why people [00:36:50] marry people from the same religion and the same caste and the same. I get it, because, you know, there’s [00:36:55] that normality in it. There’s so we know where it is. At the same time, I find it a little bit disconcerting, [00:37:00] you know, that so few Asians marry out.

[TRANSITION]: It’s true, I.

Rhona Eskander: Have noticed [00:37:05] and I because I have a lot of Asian friends.

[TRANSITION]: And it’s part of the evolution.

Rhona Eskander: But also I find it really [00:37:10] remarkable how controversial things are. Like there’s disputes [00:37:15] because they’re not from the same caste. There’s disputes because, yeah, like and I’m like, wow, [00:37:20] it’s kind of fascinating. But also I think I moved away from all that Middle Eastern [00:37:25] bullshit, to be honest with you, because my father also married Catholic when he was Coptic Christian. [00:37:30] So that was like super controversial. But I find it like like as Payman said, like [00:37:35] it’s especially within the Dental arena.

Nilesh Parmar: I feel as if not our [00:37:40] generation, but the next generation I think will be much more open.

[TRANSITION]: Do you think?

Nilesh Parmar: Yeah, I mean, I tried I mean, [00:37:45] I was with the Iranian girl for a long time, right? And we almost went the whole way. And [00:37:50] the thing is, for me, I mean, my parents were never that religious. They have [00:37:55] their moments, but generally they weren’t that religious. And my dad was always a thing that, you know, as long as they’re a good person, [00:38:00] right? They’re a good person. I mean, we’re not religious ourselves anyway, so [00:38:05] it never really meant that much to me sometimes. But when you are with somebody who’s [00:38:10] the same religion, you do have a lot more things in common, etc.. Um, and it can make things easier [00:38:15] because Indian families generally are very interconnected. So I still [00:38:20] see my parents every week, I still see my sister and nephew, etc. every week. And when you [00:38:25] bring somebody into that sort of equation, if they are aware of some of the [00:38:30] idiosyncrasies of being in an Indian family, that just makes life easier, right? But you are [00:38:35] correct that Indians do still have some old school traditional values [00:38:40] which don’t really apply anymore in this country, and.

Payman Langroudi: It might [00:38:45] be the best thing and the worst thing at the same time. Yeah, exactly.

Nilesh Parmar: And I think if you come to this country and your kids are growing [00:38:50] up and your kids are going to school with white people, Iranian people, Middle Eastern people, etc., there will be. [00:38:55]

[TRANSITION]: Interconnection.

Nilesh Parmar: Interconnection with them. And if you look at Middle Eastern people, Iranian [00:39:00] people, Indian people, they do have very, very similar, similar ideologies. Right. And [00:39:05] two three of my closest friends are Iranian, and they always love telling me that this is an Iranian dish.

[TRANSITION]: I’m like, [00:39:10] no.

Nilesh Parmar: That’s an Indian dish or burnt potato dish is.

[TRANSITION]: Rubbish. I don’t like it, whatever it is. [00:39:15]

Nilesh Parmar: And um, but because there is that you, there’s that familiarity there. It’s [00:39:20] easier to make connections with those people. Right. But amongst our cohort [00:39:25] or in our family kind of, um, situation, there have been Hindus [00:39:30] marrying Sikhs, there have been Hindus marrying Christians, there have been Hindus marrying Muslims. Like [00:39:35] it’s it’s now I don’t think that’s as much of a big deal as perhaps.

Payman Langroudi: If you if you bought [00:39:40] an English girl home and said, I want to marry her, would there be eyebrows raised?

[TRANSITION]: Money would just go for anything. Yeah. [00:39:45] You like you can bring me home.

Rhona Eskander: I want to chime in here. I think from a personal point [00:39:50] of view, I had a bit of an identity crisis in the sense that when I went to Leeds [00:39:55] because of the halls that I was in, it was all like white, posh [00:40:00] public school people. Um, I lived with Prince Harry’s ex-girlfriend. [00:40:05] I made the book and I was saying that, yeah, I’m in the book. I’m in. He trusted [00:40:10] us. He trusted us. But anyway, it was a very, like, white public [00:40:15] school kind of thing. And, you know, they were very much like, oh, you’re so exotic, you know what I mean? That [00:40:20] kind of chat. And for me, for the first time in my life, I was like the brown person. And I think I tried [00:40:25] desperately, desperately to fit in like it was really important for me to fit in and feel [00:40:30] like I belonged. And I think understanding that my father struggled as an immigrant when he first came [00:40:35] to the UK, I was like trying to be white, if I’m completely honest with you. Anyway, [00:40:40] what happened was, is that the series of boyfriends that I had had a long term boyfriend, they [00:40:45] were all English, like I say all, but I had three white English boyfriends. But in the [00:40:50] end, it was like I had this epiphany when I hit 30 and I was like, I don’t want to marry [00:40:55] a white person because I actually love my culture and I know this is complete [00:41:00] generalisation, but what I found was they didn’t necessarily get my culture and get the craziness [00:41:05] and get the Middle Eastern thing and get my parents like they they would get involved, like [00:41:10] to a degree. But I think I actually craved something like that. And I think that’s [00:41:15] why I’ve ended up with a Greek person who also has similar kind of qualities and values.

Payman Langroudi: This question [00:41:20] is interesting because you’re just about about to get married. Yeah, you. Hopefully [00:41:25] we’ll get married soon. Or not. By the way, by the way, if [00:41:30] you don’t.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, who cares mate? Who cares?

Payman Langroudi: But, but but it’s important to understand [00:41:35] that when you marry someone, the two families marry. It’s real. Yeah. [00:41:40]

[TRANSITION]: Is it real about this?

Payman Langroudi: Because, I mean.

Rhona Eskander: You know, I’m lucky because my mother in law don’t [00:41:45] speak a word of English. Really? Not even, like. Not even like. Hello, Jack. Jack. [00:41:50] He said Google.

[TRANSITION]: Translate.

Rhona Eskander: It’s amazing.

Nilesh Parmar: No Google translator might mess you up.

Payman Langroudi: Lucky [00:41:55] you’re unlucky. Look, the thing is that you end up spending a lot of time with that family. Yeah, [00:42:00] there’s no way around that. I mean, they’re.

Rhona Eskander: In Greece, but.

[TRANSITION]: Sure, but you end up.

Payman Langroudi: Spending a lot of time with that family. Yeah. Unless [00:42:05] you are happy for your the dad of your kids to be away a lot. Yeah. Um, or [00:42:10] you end up taking that that son away from their family. So there’s no there’s no easy [00:42:15] answer to it. Yeah. So the generally, you’re not spending a lot of time with the other family. And [00:42:20] if the other if you don’t get on with the other family, that’s a problem. Um, and it’s easier to get on with the other [00:42:25] family if there’s some, some things you have in common. All of that is true.

Rhona Eskander: I don’t know, I don’t know, Payman. Because, like, [00:42:30] the thing is, is that my my dad’s family, they completely rejected my mum, like, horrendously so. And [00:42:35] still till this day sadly. Okay. And then I would maybe agree with you in the sense that like, we’re not close [00:42:40] to my dad’s family as a result because they completely first of all, they’re all in America. Secondly, [00:42:45] they ostracised my mum because they just would never accept her and that anything in life was like, [00:42:50] Rhona and Tanya aren’t married and living with boyfriends because they’re sinned, because she was [00:42:55] Catholic. And he was like, do you know what I mean? Even now, even now, like.

[TRANSITION]: The religious [00:43:00] extremism. But like, you guys have seen.

Rhona Eskander: My parents and my parents are like such [00:43:05] an inspiring couple. And the thing is, my dad is like, this is the woman I [00:43:10] chose, and I love her. And like, they still stuck by that, so you don’t. Yeah, I get what you’re saying. [00:43:15] But I also feel if you as a relationship are strong enough, the worst thing you want to do as [00:43:20] well, which I’ve seen happen, is marry someone that your parents want you to marry, or vice versa [00:43:25] because you’re doing it to appease them or be the perfect child. You know? And I’m sure [00:43:30] you’ve had opportunities to be set up or whatever, whatever. And they’ve had like the ideal type of girl. But you [00:43:35] know who you are as a man and you’re like, I’m not going to marry someone just because she ticks a few boxes. Do you know what I mean? [00:43:40]

Nilesh Parmar: I still remember my dad saying, I’ve got this. They call it a mongrel, which is basically like a request [00:43:45] for marriage. It’s called a mongrel. He’s like, you know, she’s from America, she’s got a [00:43:50] law degree. She’s this. And he goes, she’s a bit fat.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, it’s okay. We’ve got Jim. I was like that. [00:43:55] Yeah.

Nilesh Parmar: But luckily my parents were never that pushy. Pushy, right. They saw what I was trying [00:44:00] to do. And to their credit, they kind of left me alone. I think now.

[TRANSITION]: Maybe their grandkids and they’ve [00:44:05] got one grandkids.

Nilesh Parmar: Um, or they’ve got two actually, they’ve got two from my cousins. But I think maybe [00:44:10] they were just worried that, you know, this will be lonely when he’s older. Like, what will he do when he’s older? You know, I think it’s [00:44:15] that concern from your parents, but from what you were saying before, and I’ve [00:44:20] seen so many of my friends get married, so many of our friends get divorced. So many. Your friends have good relationships, some of my friends are [00:44:25] on their second marriages, etc. and there’s so many moving parts to it. Right? There’s [00:44:30] from what Payman said, it’s the family agenda. So do the families. If the families [00:44:35] don’t get along, you keep them apart, right? It’s when they get together. [00:44:40] That’s when the that’s when the friction happens, right? That’s when you get the flames. If the mother in law is this or the [00:44:45] father in law is that, you just have to manage the situation. But the key thing is that as long as the relationship [00:44:50] between the husband and the wife is good, then you can get through everything. And I think every [00:44:55] marriage that I’ve seen, they all have ups and downs. Nothing is easy, but it’s all about open [00:45:00] lines of communication. So if if I did ever get married and that’s another question [00:45:05] right now in my position, getting married is can be a daunting [00:45:10] thing because you have a lot to lose, right? Even financially, financially, especially. [00:45:15]

[TRANSITION]: For a man.

Nilesh Parmar: And and I’ve seen and I’ve got friends who are getting divorced and they’re giving everything, giving [00:45:20] 80%. And when I look at the action it gives me, my hoop starts buzzing because [00:45:25] my heart rate goes up so high, because I’m like, Holy shit, you’re literally just giving everything away, like everything [00:45:30] you’ve ever done. And then for someone like me in my position.

[TRANSITION]: That’s a lot.

Nilesh Parmar: I’m I’m like, [00:45:35] well, you know, is that something that I want to do? Would it just be nice to just to live with her or do I need to trust her? Or [00:45:40] do you get a prenup? And there’s all these difficult conversations that you need to have because you do have to protect yourself. [00:45:45]

Rhona Eskander: Can I just say so? My partner is extremely successful. He’s actually more successful [00:45:50] than me, and he’s accrued a lot of assets. And obviously I’ve accrued assets as well, like [00:45:55] the clinic and stuff. And we actually had a conversation, a transparent conversation, [00:46:00] and I said, I’m fine with a prenup because I [00:46:05] don’t want you to feel like I’ll take anything from you. And, you know, I’ve got my own stuff. And [00:46:10] but it’s so funny because, like you said, like when we were talking about it and then exploring it, like you said, [00:46:15] automatically by me living in his house, not even being married, I’m entitled [00:46:20] to half the house. I’m entitled to half.

[TRANSITION]: The house subconsciously.

Nilesh Parmar: That’s why girlfriends don’t live.

[TRANSITION]: Um. [00:46:25]

Rhona Eskander: And, you know, like, it’s really crazy because I was like, wow, the law is not [00:46:30] in favour.

Payman Langroudi: You know what? It’s reminding me what you’re saying here. What it’s reminding me of is the time where [00:46:35] I thought, oh, I haven’t got time to go to the gym. And then I saw President [00:46:40] Clinton in the gym. You know, there are there are people 100 times more valuable [00:46:45] than you getting married. Mhm. Yeah. So in a way it’s an irrational fear in itself.

[TRANSITION]: That is true. [00:46:50] But I think there’s.

Nilesh Parmar: Just something you need to have in the back of so. So let’s say if I turned up with some 22 [00:46:55] year.

[TRANSITION]: Old come on. Yeah exactly. It’s a bit different when finished.

Nilesh Parmar: You just you, you just [00:47:00] keep that in the back of your mind. You assess. And for me, I also go [00:47:05] on the opinion of my inner circle. Like my close friends. They’ll meet her, see what they think [00:47:10] you know. Is it approved? Is it because I feel as if sometimes we just have rose tinted glasses, right? You’re with someone. [00:47:15] You love her. You love him. Whatever your your ability to make determinations [00:47:20] on that person is skewed because of how you feel. Your family’s ability [00:47:25] to make determination be skewed because how they want to protect you. There’s only your friends who can look at [00:47:30] that person and say, right? And I remember I had this one patient who sadly [00:47:35] passed away a few years ago that I did mad work for, like hip Bone. [00:47:40] Everything totally changed her smile. She became the most happiest person in the world, but she was a [00:47:45] former CEO of a company very, very die hard, cutthroat, really good with [00:47:50] people. And she’s like, Ellis, if you ever are going to get married, I want to meet this [00:47:55] guy. And I was thinking, shit, I feel sorry for her because she will just obliterate her, just take her apart. And [00:48:00] you need people like that to meet the person that you’re going to spend the rest of your life with [00:48:05] and to help you make those decisions. But like you say, Bill Clinton has got time to go.

Rhona Eskander: Martin was their CEO, [00:48:10] married, by the way.

[TRANSITION]: Yes. She was.

Rhona Eskander: Successful marriage.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah yeah yeah yeah, yeah.

Nilesh Parmar: She [00:48:15] was good.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Good.

Nilesh Parmar: Bill Clinton has got time to go to the gym. He always got time to cheat on his wife.

Rhona Eskander: Exactly. [00:48:20] And let’s not forget what happened to Monica Lewinsky.

Payman Langroudi: Well, I was talking about the gym. There I was, I was saying [00:48:25] I didn’t have time for the gym. And yet the president of the United States back then did have time to give to you.

Nilesh Parmar: But [00:48:30] again, I think you just have to be a little bit protected about yourself, because everything [00:48:35] you’ve worked for and I and the way I look at it, it’s also not just my assets, it’s the assets of the family [00:48:40] and what’s been built up.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, exactly.

Nilesh Parmar: I should choose where those assets go. It should go to [00:48:45] my nephew. Should go to my sisters.

[TRANSITION]: Um, you got to start.

Rhona Eskander: Thinking about your will and stuff. It’s all very complicated. [00:48:50]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, but.

Payman Langroudi: Look, the Duke of Westminster just got married. Yes. Yeah, I know babies. Which is. Man, he just.

[TRANSITION]: Got [00:48:55] married. But also, like you.

Payman Langroudi: Can rich people get married every day?

[TRANSITION]: I know, I.

Rhona Eskander: Get that, and they get fucked over all the time as well, and [00:49:00] they.

Nilesh Parmar: Get fucked over.

[TRANSITION]: But yeah, but you.

Nilesh Parmar: Just have to have that conversation with that person.

[TRANSITION]: Correct.

Rhona Eskander: And I think if you’re in a really [00:49:05] loving, safe, secure, like, do you not remember me and you about eight years ago? I think it was [00:49:10] on Facebook. I don’t know if you remember this. We had a conversation or someone put something up about a prenup. [00:49:15] I think you did. And I said, and at this time, I was single. I was like, I don’t see anything wrong. [00:49:20] Like, if you love the person, you can have the conversation and all these girls that are kicking off being like, if anyone [00:49:25] asks me to prenup, I would like, I’m gone and all this stuff. And I was like, guys like, it’s [00:49:30] like the freezing the egg thing. It’s like an insurance policy. Hopefully you never need the fucking [00:49:35] action it, but you don’t know what life is going to throw at you, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. And right, [00:49:40] I know we’ve talked about relationships like pretty much the whole way through this podcast, but I do want to ask [00:49:45] you a bit about dentistry if that’s okay with you. So obviously you’re one of the most successful dentists [00:49:50] in the industry. You know, you, um, pave the way for a lot of dentists, including myself [00:49:55] and my embryonic stages of my career. What was your darkest moment in dentistry? [00:50:00]

Nilesh Parmar: Oh. Good question. Um, us getting struck off, I think, was probably my darkest moment. [00:50:05] So in the and that happened very, very early on. So, um, I had [00:50:10] a GDC case, um, which I said I was going to talk about, but what the hell? It’s out there. Yeah, I had a GDC case. [00:50:15] Um, and if you Google it, it’s really hard to find now because there’s so much other stuff about me and [00:50:20] there wasn’t anything patient related. It was just something very silly. And when you’re young, you make stupid [00:50:25] mistakes. And that was deep. And and I think there’s been quite a few dentists or well [00:50:30] known dentists who’ve gone through that, who’ve talked about it and written about it. And I think I always [00:50:35] used to make a joke that if I won the lottery, I would spend my time trying to sort [00:50:40] out our regulatory body and how dentists if I just didn’t give a shit, right. If [00:50:45] I had, if I had enough money to do what I want to do, which would be to race cars around [00:50:50] the world and give up dentistry, I would put aside a considerable sum of money [00:50:55] and get some people on board to say, right, the way we regulate [00:51:00] dentists or the way we look at dentists when potentially they’ve done something wrong, even if they haven’t, [00:51:05] is so detrimental to their mental health. And we have had so many [00:51:10] dentists commit suicide because they’ve had GDC cases. And there was one dentist that he had a case going on [00:51:15] for two years.

Nilesh Parmar: Nothing happened at the end of it, but he had this little sword [00:51:20] of Damocles dangling across his head for two years. It’s really difficult. Delivered [00:51:25] when I was in that position. It was done after about six months or so, and [00:51:30] I didn’t have any family. I didn’t have any kids to look after a mortgage or anything at that time. [00:51:35] It was really early on. And, um, it was almost like getting in trouble for [00:51:40] being drunk and stupid and sending a few stupid emails. But, um, what [00:51:45] I found really difficult was once the case was finished, you think, okay, [00:51:50] it’s done. I can move on with my life. And you and I have both been the victim of [00:51:55] bullying as well. Yeah, and you’d get online trolling. And there was. There was a point where [00:52:00] I almost thought to myself, I’m going to go to this person’s house and I’m going to kick the shit out of it. I’m [00:52:05] actually going to go there and physically knock him out, and you would never do it. But [00:52:10] you became so angry at these people, you think, how dare they say these things? They’ve [00:52:15] never met me. They don’t know anything about me. And then, you know, I used to do. And I think that’s [00:52:20] also rife in our profession. I think it’s rife in any profession is jealousy and his online [00:52:25] trolling and bullying. And we don’t control it. And I think there’s Shiraz. So Shiraz Khan, [00:52:30] who I’m very friendly with, he was he was being trolled online, really. [00:52:35] And I remember I was the only one because I sort of got PTSD from what happened to me. [00:52:40]

Nilesh Parmar: And Shiraz and I are so close now because of it, because I was the only one that stood up for him and said, you [00:52:45] know what, guys, leave this guy alone. Just back off and leave him alone. And I think we’re now in a position [00:52:50] where we don’t really care what the other people think because we’ve made [00:52:55] it or we’ve we’ve got enough now. We don’t really care. So I don’t have an issue standing [00:53:00] up to bullies anymore. But back then I was very, very meek. I was very quiet. And I remember [00:53:05] there was a well known dentist who actually screenshotted one of my Instagram posts and sent it to my dad [00:53:10] saying, what is your son doing? And it was something to do with a car or like a, you know, the [00:53:15] steering wheel of the car or something. I remember my dad showing this to me, going, who’s this guy? And I said, oh, [00:53:20] he’s, he’s a, he’s a dentist in central London. Um, and um, he’s [00:53:25] just a bit jealous. And my dad said some profanities in, in Hindi and then we kind of left it. And that [00:53:30] online trolling and online bullying I think happened so much more now. It happened so much more in university. [00:53:35] It happens so much more undergraduate because it’s it can be a very, very prolific [00:53:40] way of getting underneath someone’s skin. When we had it, I think it was in its [00:53:45] embryonic stages. No, I mean.

Rhona Eskander: Unfortunately Payman knows already. I still get it all the time because [00:53:50] obviously my profile is not just for dentists, but it’s also out there to the public. But pretty [00:53:55] much most of my trolls are dentists. And the abuse I get and, you know, there was an eminent [00:54:00] person within the industry, which is I’m not going to mention his name, but sometimes when he’s [00:54:05] trolling, they’ll have other dentists be like, what is wrong with this guy? He’s literally an old man. Like heckling [00:54:10] a young girl, like, what is even going on here? And sometimes it makes him look bad. But [00:54:15] like, Payman was like, no, but like, you know, his people will think that he’s like, really cool for, like, calling you. I’m like calling me out [00:54:20] for what? Like my page isn’t to him, you know what I mean? My page is very patient orientated. [00:54:25]

Payman Langroudi: Wait wait wait wait wait the the we talked about this before, [00:54:30] but but the separate arguments about clinical work, [00:54:35] you know that that’s the bucket I would put that in. Yeah. It wasn’t. [00:54:40]

Rhona Eskander: Really I mean this is just.

[TRANSITION]: Offline like.

Payman Langroudi: No I agree with you. Some people use clinical work to bully people. [00:54:45] Yeah they do. That’s that’s right. But let’s separate that out from the other stuff. You showed me where [00:54:50] someone was. I hope your parents die.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. No. Like that’s the stuff. Like, if you don’t speak, you don’t speak about the [00:54:55] conflict, the war, then like you deserve to burn in hell, that kind of stuff. But the thing is, I had [00:55:00] three dentists that had sent me messages, didn’t even hide their profile. Like, you know what I mean? Just being like, shut [00:55:05] the f up. Are you being paid by this side and all this stuff? But the point is, I think [00:55:10] it is disgusting. Now people say in every industry you’re going to have bullies and trolls. But I tell you [00:55:15] one thing like my partner works in finance, that ever happened in finance, that is it. They lose their [00:55:20] job. They lose their job. Do you use social media to bully or heckle a colleague? Done. [00:55:25] Even if they’re not in your company, it’s done. It’s done. And the thing is, we are [00:55:30] healthcare professionals. We are under oath. We have a code of conduct and how we should behave towards [00:55:35] patients. Therefore, I think we should have a code of conduct on how we actually communicate with each [00:55:40] other. And I think part of the problem, as you’re saying, is also the profession wanting [00:55:45] to whistle blow on their colleagues for jealousy, which I think happens as well. You know, there’d be like, [00:55:50] there is a dentist who I bumped into and I don’t know if it’s the same one they’re talking about. You know him very well. My [00:55:55] heart broke last week because he had a GDC case. He was whistleblower. One of his colleagues [00:56:00] was a whistleblower, and he went on antidepressants for two years. And [00:56:05] he’s basically left dentistry now because by the end of it, he ended up suing the GDC.

[TRANSITION]: So [00:56:10] he sued.

Rhona Eskander: The GDC for what they put him through because suddenly he wasn’t allowed to work. He had his [00:56:15] own practice. His day was wake up, take his daughter to school and then just sit around. [00:56:20] They they investigated his laptop. They investigated every. Everything right, and [00:56:25] he felt like a criminal. So as a result, he got one of the best barristers. Um, [00:56:30] one of the, the, his indemnity were like, no, no, no. Are you sure you want to see [00:56:35] the GDC? He was like, I am so sure I’m gonna sue. And he won. He won. But the point is, [00:56:40] is now his mental health had been destroyed. He’s a 47 year old man and [00:56:45] he’s leaving. He’s like, I’m done, I am done. And he was a dentist that loved his profession. [00:56:50] So it’s a I think it really does need an overhaul.

Nilesh Parmar: We don’t have that ability [00:56:55] to self regulate our own dentists. So if a dentist is [00:57:00] trolling another dentist, especially if it’s online or whatever, there’s it’s very difficult to do anything [00:57:05] about it. Right. Unless you if you call them out, then that could have repercussions. If other people [00:57:10] get involved, that could have repercussions. And ah, I really would like our governing body [00:57:15] to say, right, we’re now all looking to online trolling. If you’ve got proof that somebody [00:57:20] is trolling, which.

Rhona Eskander: We can.

Nilesh Parmar: Easy. And if you’ve got whatever you need to prove it, then [00:57:25] they really need to be looked at. And I would love for, you know, where we have our little names [00:57:30] on the little list to say this dentist has been suspended for online trolling. I’d just [00:57:35] love if that was on there because and you know, the thing is, whatever you do, whatever [00:57:40] good you do, right, you’ll always get people that will see the bad. And when I did Ice White, there was a [00:57:45] well known specialist in central London who was going around telling people that needles kept the money. [00:57:50] So I kept the profits and the charity companies. Right. Despite the fact that there’s a big picture of me with a check with the owner [00:57:55] of the charity going, here’s the money. Right. And so that made me understand [00:58:00] that you can be the best person in the world, right? But there’ll always be people that will try and get you to roll around [00:58:05] in the mud with them. And there was that Oprah Winfrey quote, isn’t it? Which is just be excellent. [00:58:10] Whatever you do, just be excellent. Just try and rise above it. But you know what?

[TRANSITION]: Sometimes you can’t.

Nilesh Parmar: You don’t want to rise, [00:58:15] but you want to get in the mud and you want to punch that guy in the face.

Payman Langroudi: I want to say a couple of things. I want to say a couple of things. Oh, here we [00:58:20] go. There is this is a symptom of the change from analogue to digital. Yeah. [00:58:25] And and you’re right. You know, you both of you have [00:58:30] social media veterans if you like. Yes. People almost almost native to social media [00:58:35] understand what a troll is. What what what the rules of engagement [00:58:40] are. Yeah. But some of these older guys, you know, they weren’t they weren’t in the social [00:58:45] media age. It’s basically I’m going to say what’s in my head. But I think.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah I.

Payman Langroudi: Disagree. [00:58:50] Yeah. Now your your solution to this issue [00:58:55] this problem or yours. Yeah. Of you know having the GDC involved. Yeah. It’s [00:59:00] not necessarily a better world. Yeah. It’s not necessarily just imagine this accountability. Wait a minute. [00:59:05] This guy said I don’t think your approach on that composite was right for the sake.

[TRANSITION]: Of I mean, [00:59:10] he didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Say for the sake of the argument, for the sake of the argument is I don’t think your approach on that composite was right. You say? Yes, [00:59:15] it was, I think I think I did this and then he says something slightly, slightly off. Yeah. Now what we’re [00:59:20] going to do, we’re going to, we’re going to send it to the judiciary.

[TRANSITION]: You know.

Rhona Eskander: It’s not that kind of trolling like you’ve seen like [00:59:25] screenshotting and ridiculing your lifestyle screenshotting and ridiculing the way [00:59:30] that you look, making fun of, you know, that bullying tactics. I’m not saying whether they agree [00:59:35] or not with your bonding protocol. You know, your implant protocol, like we’re talking about things that are [00:59:40] deeply personal.

[TRANSITION]: You know, within.

Payman Langroudi: A practice, bullying goes on a hundred times a day. You know, all [00:59:45] the time.

[TRANSITION]: It happens all the time.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, fine. I hear what you’re saying. Like it’s [00:59:50] the same argument, like with, you know, do we put criminals in prison because it doesn’t like most criminals when [00:59:55] they’ve released.

[TRANSITION]: Less GDC, not more? No, no. What I mean.

Rhona Eskander: But I think there is accountability, right? [01:00:00] Because although like the GDC, the law firms, etc., to [01:00:05] some degree make a lot of dentists behave in line with patients [01:00:10] because there’s always that fear that things that your job is on the line. So if we regulate people’s behaviour [01:00:15] online, we therefore make people accountable for their actions. They will think twice [01:00:20] before they type. Or there could be some kind of guideline like you should like [01:00:25] treat your colleagues with respect if you have a genuine concern about something, blah blah blah. [01:00:30] But listen, we’re not going to resolve this now. Neelasha is going to become a multi-billionaire. I sought out the GDC. We’ve decided [01:00:35] that. Okay.

[TRANSITION]: Tell me about.

Payman Langroudi: Your political ambitions, because I remember that was a thing [01:00:40] for a while and I remember it was conservatives. Surely you’re not.

Nilesh Parmar: Still are. [01:00:45] It’s absolute shambles, isn’t it? Yeah. You know, yesterday Keir Starmer said I [01:00:50] do go to an NHS dentist but I’m seeing privately because they don’t see NHS [01:00:55] patients.

[TRANSITION]: Dude, you don’t.

Nilesh Parmar: Even understand how the health service.

[TRANSITION]: Works. Yeah.

Nilesh Parmar: So we’ve got no [01:01:00] hope basically. Um political ambitions. Yeah. There always was. [01:01:05] I mean, I really love that sort of stuff. But for me it’s it’ll be something a bit later [01:01:10] on. I think not now. I think there’s a lot of good that we can do, [01:01:15] especially in our profession, which I think kind of gets sidelined. Right, especially in as a political [01:01:20] hot potato. And nobody really cares. Nobody really deals with it. Nothing really. Changes. We’ve had the same [01:01:25] system. I mean, I think NHS entry, if it was handled properly, [01:01:30] could be the envy of the world because the clinicians we have a very, [01:01:35] very good and you’ve got clinicians who will work in the health service. If they’re remunerated a [01:01:40] fair amount. That doesn’t mean it has to be a crazy amount. But you’ve got you’ve got that. Most of the dentistry in the UK [01:01:45] is NHS dentistry, right? It’s just over 50%, I think, in the last numbers. So if you [01:01:50] had good amount of money thrown at it then yeah, you could do something special.

Payman Langroudi: There’s no more money going into [01:01:55] dentistry, let’s face that.

Nilesh Parmar: But the thing is, if the money.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s a reallocation question.

[TRANSITION]: Well, if it’s about.

Nilesh Parmar: They [01:02:00] put about a billion in right. For that I think that’s about £1 billion.

[TRANSITION]: I think it’s 2%.

Payman Langroudi: Of health spending [01:02:05] is. Yeah.

Nilesh Parmar: But you see I think it’s where the priorities lie. And is it something that we’re going [01:02:10] to sort out. No. But it’s something I’d like to be a part of at some point just to try and improve the lives of dentists, [01:02:15] improve the lives of nurses, hygienists and also the patients. Because at the end of the day, right, [01:02:20] we’re here to help people. And if we can make a positive impact [01:02:25] on somebody’s oral health, which I think has such a big deal with the rest of the body that we know, then maybe [01:02:30] it’s something we need to look at. And I still see NHS patients. I’ve got loads of little old ladies that I still see. I do [01:02:35] get the odd pro bono case like Rona, and you just try and help people because if we don’t [01:02:40] help them, nobody else will help them. And sometimes it’s, it’s, it’s karma as well. [01:02:45] Right. You want to help people and you feel as if that’s going to come around. I think some of my most [01:02:50] happiest moments have been helping those patients smile and eat and talk, and they’ll send you pictures of the wedding [01:02:55] or pictures of them with the grandkids or whatever. And it it hits a spot that nothing else does [01:03:00] this.

Payman Langroudi: Well, let’s finish with karma again. Yeah, because I’ll tell you where [01:03:05] the problem I’ve got with karma. Two things really. One, it seems a bit selfish. [01:03:10] Yeah, that I’m doing this so that something comes back to me. Yeah. [01:03:15] If you really believe it does. Right. Um, the second thing is I, [01:03:20] I fully accept doing nice things ends up with you getting nice stuff. A bag [01:03:25] in a in a obvious way. In a practical way. But when I say, do you believe [01:03:30] in karma? I’m not saying that. I’m not saying, hey, she came over, I was nice to you and [01:03:35] gave you a coffee. Next time I call you, you’ll be nice to me. It’s not that karma is some sort of supernatural. [01:03:40] Thing where I don’t know, I [01:03:45] found I found £20 on the floor. Instead of handing it in, I spent it on something. That thing ended [01:03:50] up ruining my life. And that kind of karma. Yeah, is what I know you [01:03:55] do.

Nilesh Parmar: Pretty much Payman.

[TRANSITION]: I think too much, Steve. Just do good and good things. [01:04:00] It’s not a hinduistic I’m doing good. But yeah, I get it.

Rhona Eskander: And I love that. I think.

[TRANSITION]: Hinduism [01:04:05] and Buddhism, the difference.

Payman Langroudi: That you’ve given money to charity. Yeah. Yeah. You know.

[TRANSITION]: To [01:04:10] Lesvos.

Rhona Eskander: Many times.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Although I find that less, less interesting [01:04:15] than it sounds.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I don’t do it for interest. Payman like I do it for like [01:04:20] I said, like I. And again, for me, for me, this is much [01:04:25] more important than reposting a middle eastern post. I have been going for many years [01:04:30] to refugee camps. I’ve been going to refugee camps. Why? Because I have a skill. [01:04:35] Is it for you can help people? No, because I genuinely want to help people.

[TRANSITION]: If you.

Payman Langroudi: Genuinely want to help people, [01:04:40] why don’t you donate a month’s salary and send 3030 dentists to.

Rhona Eskander: I [01:04:45] have, I.

[TRANSITION]: Have you’re talking about.

Rhona Eskander: That book my partner told me.

[TRANSITION]: About, you know, the same.

Payman Langroudi: Week that you’re spending [01:04:50] in Lesbos you could spend in Chelsea, make enough money to send five dentists to Lesbos. Yeah, because if you really cared.

[TRANSITION]: But [01:04:55] also people know.

Rhona Eskander: Because I also think, of course I care about people.

[TRANSITION]: If you really cared about.

Rhona Eskander: I [01:05:00] really care about people. Let me finish. But yeah, the point is [01:05:05] right as well. It’s like my grandfather is half Palestinian. Right? So meeting like Middle Eastern, [01:05:10] Syrian, Palestinian refugees is something that I feel very connected to. And there is something [01:05:15] much more profound about that. And, you know, being with those children and be and because [01:05:20] I have a large following, I am influencing a lot of dentists to go out there, which is what I do. [01:05:25] And you know that.

Payman Langroudi: Good, good, good, good answer.

[TRANSITION]: But it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Effective [01:05:30] altruism. Have you heard about it?

[TRANSITION]: So and I also.

Nilesh Parmar: Think, you know, it takes more hard work [01:05:35] for her to go.

[TRANSITION]: Herself. Correct.

Nilesh Parmar: As opposed.

[TRANSITION]: To just throwing money at it, just writing.

Nilesh Parmar: A check [01:05:40] because that there’s a risk involved. You know, there’s time out. There’s time out of her life. [01:05:45] There’s a travel, there’s this, there’s that. It’s ruining her routine. So that’s why I think we can’t [01:05:50] just write checks and we can give. We can.

Payman Langroudi: But my point is, though. Yeah. You know. No, no, [01:05:55] you could drive this truck and give give food to the hungry. Yeah. And there’s a power [01:06:00] dynamic in that. Yeah. That if I didn’t drive this truck and I didn’t give the food, they [01:06:05] wouldn’t eat today. Yeah. And this, of course you get something out of it yourself. [01:06:10] Right. And all all I’m saying is, yeah, that a lot of charity work can be seen as you’re [01:06:15] doing it for yourself.

[TRANSITION]: Rather than totally.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing. Yeah. [01:06:20] I’m saying that’s what you’re doing.

[TRANSITION]: That’s what some.

Rhona Eskander: People say about Gandhi and Mother Teresa, you know? But at the end of the day, they [01:06:25] affected a lot of people. So I’m here.

Nilesh Parmar: At the end.

[TRANSITION]: Result. Thank you, thank you.

Nilesh Parmar: It doesn’t matter if somebody’s [01:06:30] going there just to do this, but the fact that the kid gets fed exactly is the [01:06:35] end result.

[TRANSITION]: I know, but.

Payman Langroudi: More kids would be fed if that was the thing we were really measuring. [01:06:40] Two more kids would be fed by horsetail in Chelsea and working her butt off [01:06:45] in Chelsea and and playing loads of other people. But then to go. But his hourly rate is a lot lower. [01:06:50]

Nilesh Parmar: And then look at it if you’re if you have a control freak like me and Rona, right. For me, I [01:06:55] know that the kid will get be fed better if I feed the kid.

Payman Langroudi: Somebody professional like [01:07:00] someone who feeds kids. That’s a job he does.

[TRANSITION]: Listen, at the end of the day, I mean, at the end of the day, go back and forth [01:07:05] on that one.

Rhona Eskander: At the end of the day, you need to write a book on this because I’m not convinced and we [01:07:10] are running out of time. So, Niklas, it has been such a pleasure having you [01:07:15] today on my movies and hearing a different side to you. And thank you so much for your vulnerability. [01:07:20] I’m sure it will help a lot of dentists. We’ve all heard. You know, how you’ve become one of the most [01:07:25] successful dentists, but I think it’s so important to have other dentists inspired on conversations that [01:07:30] we don’t have on the regular. So thank you very much. My pleasure.

Payman Langroudi: Perfect. Thanks a lot for coming in, buddy. Thanks.

Payman Langroudi: I’d kind of call you an extrovert, though. Not not an introvert. How would you characterise. Yeah, I’m an extrovert. [00:00:05] Yeah. I think a lot of people who work with me, it’s because they they enjoy. We have a lot of fun together. I [00:00:10] have a lot of fun doing this. But most technicians I find are sort of borderline sort of autistic [00:00:15] on the spectrum. That’s the reason why a lot of labs fail. They can’t deal with [00:00:20] the human side of it, the human side of it. So then what is with your top customers? [00:00:25] Are you friends with them? Do you or are you on the phone with them? Some of them I have lunch with once a week. Oh, really? [00:00:30] So there’s one in particular. I talk to him every day.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders, the [00:00:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:00:45] in dentistry. Your hosts [00:00:50] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Michael Joseph onto the podcast, the second technician we’ve had [00:01:00] in a couple of months. Really? Uh, you know, I found a lot of times a great [00:01:05] technician can turn an average dentist into a great dentist, but the opposite is also [00:01:10] true. You can also have a technician who makes you feel like a terrible dentist. And my [00:01:15] personal story was I my first ever technician, a guy [00:01:20] called John Oliver, an absolute master. I learned more from him about [00:01:25] fixed problems than I did in my whole dental course, and I thought I [00:01:30] was such a brilliant dentist when he was my technician. And then I moved practice and they made me [00:01:35] use another lab, and I suddenly realised that, um, no, I’m not as good at [00:01:40] enters as I thought. And you know, that variable of the technician and, [00:01:45] and the communication I thought was the most important thing with him? [00:01:50] Um, we don’t we don’t give our technicians enough credit for what we [00:01:55] do. So massive pleasure to have you.

Michael Joseph: Thank you for having me on.

Payman Langroudi: So I’ve known you for years. [00:02:00] How long has it been? A good 15 years.

Michael Joseph: A lot I’ve known you since I think you started [00:02:05] enlightened 2000 and 4001 2001. So, yeah, I remember when, uh, [00:02:10] the Royal College of Physicians I was exhibiting, I was working for evident at the time. And you marched [00:02:15] in with this 20 foot tall sign that sort of dominated the whole room. Yeah. [00:02:20] Who’s this guy? And we became friends.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So at that time, [00:02:25] you were, uh, sales rep for evident.

Michael Joseph: Yeah, I worked for evident.

Payman Langroudi: So were you a technician [00:02:30] at that point? Yeah, I.

Michael Joseph: I trained as a technician in and what I [00:02:35] started initially I worked in the laboratory in Walthamstow as a trainee, [00:02:40] and my brother was going to Manchester to do, to do, um, accountancy. [00:02:45] And I was just reading the prospectus and I saw Dental technology course and I thought, oh, I [00:02:50] fancy going to university as well. So like for that. And I went on the course and then when [00:02:55] I graduated, I worked for, well, John Whibley had just taken over boots and [00:03:00] he’d opened a big laboratory. I went to work for him for a year. But then, you know, I [00:03:05] was earning 12 grand a year. I was like, I can’t live like this. So I came back to London and [00:03:10] I took a maternity position at Everton, and that’s when my sales career started. [00:03:15]

Payman Langroudi: How long did you do that for?

Michael Joseph: I was it evident for about 3 or 4 years. Then I [00:03:20] worked in sales with Sirona. Oh. Did you? And then. [00:03:25] Yeah. Yeah, I worked for, um. Calmann-lévy. The Sarona [00:03:30] deal at the time. And then after that I didn’t really like that very much, doing surgery [00:03:35] sales. And I saw a job with Skill Bond, who you probably know, like the main supplier [00:03:40] for dental materials and like the dental.

Payman Langroudi: Directory.

Michael Joseph: Dental labs. Yeah. So I worked to work for them [00:03:45] for a year, and then after being away from labs for so many years, I sort of thought I really [00:03:50] quite like this. And when registration came in some years before I registered and I kept it up, [00:03:55] so I thought I’d. And then eventually, within a year, I left and opened a laboratory. [00:04:00]

Payman Langroudi: What kind of a kid were you?

Michael Joseph: That’s really naughty. Um, [00:04:05] I was really busy. I was busy doing stuff I was always into. Uh. Where did you grow up? I grew [00:04:10] up in Temple Fortune in, uh, north London, and I just went to a local school, [00:04:15] and I was really into, like, building things and, [00:04:20] you know, like models. And at the time, there was, um, kits for, uh, Airfix [00:04:25] remote control stuff. Tammy. Tammy. Tammy. Tammy. Yeah, I used to. I used to make all those remote [00:04:30] control cars, even though the batteries lasted about four minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um. Yeah. [00:04:35] And sort of my interest in sort of building and making things stems from [00:04:40] that. But also I think, um, I had dyslexia at school. So in those days they used most put them down [00:04:45] as like he’s a plumber. Mhm. Um, so I think that’s why I was pushed in that direction. [00:04:50]

Payman Langroudi: So then tell me about that first lab that you opened.

Michael Joseph: Right? [00:04:55] Right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Michael Joseph: So when I first opened [00:05:00] it. Um, it was just me on my own. So I was literally [00:05:05] doing collections marketing. I got my in those days, no [00:05:10] labs were really doing any marketing. So I put together a letter, had loads of brochures printed [00:05:15] out with like a folder, as you did with a business card. Yeah. And I put them all in envelopes, and I just [00:05:20] gave my mum a list that I printed out. I think I got a database from somewhere and she just posted them [00:05:25] all and people, people started calling me. So it went, it went from that. [00:05:30] So I got a lot of customers like that. And then I did stuff with then I got more [00:05:35] sophisticated. I did stuff with FMC and I was actually in a service office, so I had [00:05:40] this lab in a service office, and I made sure the management never got in because if they realised what I was doing there [00:05:45] and it wasn’t a busy service office, there were no neighbours. Then it got busier, some accountants moved in and they [00:05:50] were complaining about these noises. They were hearing and grinding and, you know, destroyed the [00:05:55] floor. It was like plaster everywhere. And um, they asked me to move out. So I [00:06:00] took a small premises and I refurbished it and built [00:06:05] a lab there where I’m still there today.

Payman Langroudi: So I remember you in doing that FMC [00:06:10] phase. I remember just massive exposure for bitrate [00:06:15] back then. That’s right. Kind of thinking outside the box a bit. You know, [00:06:20] other lab was really doing that. Um.

Michael Joseph: You threw out the McMichael campaign. Yeah, yeah. [00:06:25]

Payman Langroudi: I remember just like being everywhere for a while. And, you know, in general [00:06:30] business skills, I find a lot of technicians are technicians, [00:06:35] technical people, but don’t have those business skills. Whereas every time I’ve talked to you, you’re very [00:06:40] on it from from the business perspective.

Michael Joseph: Yeah. I think that’s because I those [00:06:45] years I spent in sales. Yeah. And especially working with evident you know Stephen Stephen Selwyn. [00:06:50] Yeah. So I kind of it was a small company and I sort of just really he taught me a lot [00:06:55] about selling, about business, about getting leads. And actually when I first opened [00:07:00] the lab, I my skills weren’t as a technician, weren’t as great as they are [00:07:05] now because I hadn’t I hadn’t been practising, I hadn’t been doing any technical dentistry. I’ve been in [00:07:10] sales. So I had technicians to do that, and I just focussed a lot on [00:07:15] going out and getting business because I needed the business, you know, I needed a critical mass turnover [00:07:20] just to survive.

Payman Langroudi: So were you doing sort of as if visiting practices as if you were going to [00:07:25] sell them? Yeah, I took the.

Michael Joseph: Same mode, the same idea using, you know, generating leads, [00:07:30] making appointments, going to see people following up. In those days I couldn’t afford [00:07:35] there wasn’t like all the apps now you can get which are CRMs. He had sales logics at the time, [00:07:40] which was sort of £30,000 investment. So I just had a spreadsheet and I used to tick when I’d called them [00:07:45] back and. And just went on like that. And then as I grew, I got in touch with [00:07:50] FMC. I started doing some work with them and Facebook [00:07:55] advertising. And then it was generally SEO trying to get up the ranks. [00:08:00] I was number one, but they never got anything from that.

Payman Langroudi: So you [00:08:05] had the process of getting a new user, a new dentist to use [00:08:10] you, because most of us have a lab that we’re kind of happy with. Um, [00:08:15] but then a lot of us have a lab that we’re not 100% happy with. [00:08:20] Do you? How do you do it? I mean, do you what’s the general profile of a dentist you [00:08:25] come to? Do you get those guys to say, I’ve got no problem, and then you have to come in on price or on [00:08:30] technology or how does it work? How do you get a new customer? Well, I think. [00:08:35]

Michael Joseph: As you say, for the. For a large proportion. Most [00:08:40] people have a lab they’re working with. They do, because otherwise you can’t practice. Yeah. And then two [00:08:45] things either happens their lab screws up or they perceive that they’ve screwed up and they’ve had [00:08:50] enough and they look for someone else. Yeah. And then you’ve just got to be sort of in their vicinity. Yeah. [00:08:55] Which is how my marketing strategy now works to an extent. Or they’re upping [00:09:00] their game and they realise these are really good for what I’ve been doing up until now. But I’m really starting to [00:09:05] do a lot of aesthetic work and I need a lot. I need a better, better quality work. [00:09:10]

Payman Langroudi: And do is the profile of most dentists that they use more than one lab. [00:09:15]

Michael Joseph: Yes, some dentists use use me primarily and but then other [00:09:20] dentists, you know, they might send their inlays to one lab that veneers to another lab. Implant work. Some people [00:09:25] work like that. They prefer it or. But most people, once you sort of gain their trust, [00:09:30] then they’ll continue and they’ll send you everything. And it’s it’s infectious. [00:09:35] It spreads to their associates, then their associate moves to another practice. It spreads to that practice. [00:09:40] That’s generally how labs. Rely on getting customers basically through reputation. [00:09:45] And it’s a slow process.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But then the positioning [00:09:50] of it, I mean, in a dental practice, you’ve got the sort of the NHS [00:09:55] and private. Right. And there’s a similar thing with labs. There’s some labs that [00:10:00] brand themselves as private labs.

Michael Joseph: Right. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So and some, some as NHS labs. But when [00:10:05] you come to position the business, of course you’re going to take into account, you know, your skill [00:10:10] set and who you can hire. And sure. But talk to me about that. I mean, [00:10:15] well, how did the unit economics work? Are are the most profitable labs giant [00:10:20] NHS ones or are they private? High margin, high [00:10:25] end? Talk to me. I think the.

Michael Joseph: Most the well there’s different models. You can either do [00:10:30] volume at a very let’s say fair price. Yeah. But you have to have a lot of [00:10:35] volume and you have to have the processes in place to make that very economical.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re coming in on price, [00:10:40] you’re.

Michael Joseph: Coming in on price.

Payman Langroudi: Well, but but then there’s a price war. Then how does it get [00:10:45] to race.

Michael Joseph: To the bottom, which traditionally has happened with labs. Yeah. But I think that’s that’s one of the things [00:10:50] that’s about right now. What’s happening is that it’s becoming a less of a [00:10:55] price based market. I think that’s why it’s a gold. Despite everyone talking about all the problems with not being able [00:11:00] to get staff, you know, there’s a lack of technicians. I think it’s a golden era for dental technology [00:11:05] in that the market’s moved up. The private market that I operate in has moved away [00:11:10] from price. People are looking more for quality and people are realising. I think it’s to do [00:11:15] with the the continuation of the wellness revolution of the 90s that’s coming to the [00:11:20] Instagram era. Everyone wants to look good. People are prepared to spend money on their teeth. You know, Botox. [00:11:25] Everyone wants to look good so people are prepared to pay for it, and [00:11:30] they’re more aware of what they’re looking, what they’re looking at. They know what looks good and what doesn’t look good. So they go [00:11:35] to the dentist and they and they have a couple of veneers done. And they’re not great.

Michael Joseph: You know, they’ve [00:11:40] realised I’ve got to spend a bit more money and then the dentist realise I’ve got to up my game too. So [00:11:45] the. The market where I’m positioning myself in is [00:11:50] is it’s not on a price based market. I’m not particularly expensive, [00:11:55] let’s say. But, um, it’s on a director led personal service. Yeah. [00:12:00] Um, but the NHS is purely price driven. Yeah. And, you [00:12:05] know, I think in terms of NHS laboratories, I mean, most of it’s done in the north [00:12:10] where Labour is cheaper and a lot of it’s outsourced to China. And do you know what? I think they’re probably getting [00:12:15] a better quality product from China than they are from anywhere else, simply because the economics [00:12:20] of how China works and what they produce is, is they’re getting from [00:12:25] for the money, they can produce better quality. Crown. When you translate that into an R&B, [00:12:30] that’s a decent bit of money and it can make a decent product. Regardless of what anyone says [00:12:35] about Chinese work for the NHS market, I think it’s a good thing. I think an NHS [00:12:40] from.

Payman Langroudi: The regulatory perspective, is that still doable? I believe so, yeah.

Michael Joseph: I don’t [00:12:45] think there’s any any issues there.

Payman Langroudi: So then what’s the downside? How long it takes? [00:12:50]

Michael Joseph: I think so. Yeah, I think so. It takes it takes a lot of time.

Payman Langroudi: Quality [00:12:55] control, quality control.

Michael Joseph: There’s there’s all kinds of issues with it. I mean, if you’re running a [00:13:00] high end private laboratory, you’ve got to do as much as you can in-house. Yeah. Um, [00:13:05] even even even like. Using Createch very high quality [00:13:10] milling centres based in Spain that’s owned by Straumann. Even that, that takes a bit away [00:13:15] from you if you can do it yourself, which is something I’m trying I’m doing now and expanding. [00:13:20] You have more control and also time with private work. People think want things quickly, you know, [00:13:25] and createch you’ve got to wait a week for an abutment, whereas if you can make it in-house, they can make it straight away. [00:13:30]

Payman Langroudi: And as far as the scope of the work, is there some lab work that is [00:13:35] more profitable than others? And for instance, do you do everything? Do you do dentures the least?

Michael Joseph: No, I [00:13:40] don’t do denture work. But the least profitable thing is the thing that is always been [00:13:45] the cheapest thing. It’s the most expensive to make, which is the bonded crown. Oh, really? Yeah. I [00:13:50] hate doing bonded work. If anyone sends me a bonded crown, I call them on. Why? Why do you want a bonded crown? Let’s [00:13:55] do a metal free. Because it’s so labour intensive. It’s the most. Traditionally it was. It was viewed by the [00:14:00] dentist as the cheapest. Yeah. Crown. Yeah. It should be the [00:14:05] least expensive crown. And it. And it was always very labour intensive to produce. But now it’s [00:14:10] become even with digital technology, even more labour intensive. We don’t have a casting machine anymore. [00:14:15] Really. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So. So you try not to do them at all?

Michael Joseph: No. And [00:14:20] if we do do them, we’ve got a partner skill bond who will use SLM selective laser [00:14:25] melting and produce a coating for us. We’ll send them design. And so.

Payman Langroudi: If a dentist [00:14:30] keeps on sending you bonded crowns, do you have a chat and say, yeah, if.

Michael Joseph: They send one. [00:14:35] Why? Why do you want this? I think they’re stuck in that.

Payman Langroudi: I think the teaching kind of still, [00:14:40] still something in the teaching. It’s kind of a gold standard.

Michael Joseph: And full contoured zirconia. [00:14:45] Zirconia crown is is probably the best crown overall [00:14:50] I’d say. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s that’s a very strong crown. And is it now aesthetic as [00:14:55] well. You can layer it and all that.

Michael Joseph: You don’t need to layer it 95% of the time. You don’t need to layer [00:15:00] it.

Payman Langroudi: So how do you get the aesthetics from it.

Michael Joseph: Using surface stain the the technology of surface stain with [00:15:05] um, things like Myo, which is the American staining system where you’re creating you’re not creating [00:15:10] the it’s not three dimensional, but you’re giving the illusion of it. And and it’s [00:15:15] really it’s really up there. I mean, there’s always going to be a place for layering. Yeah. For [00:15:20] now, I think eventually everything will be printed.

Payman Langroudi: So if we’re talking [00:15:25] a percentage of your work, what percentage is 90%?

Michael Joseph: Is full contour.

Payman Langroudi: Full contour [00:15:30] zirconia. Yeah. Not Emax either. Oh how interesting. Yeah. Is that because [00:15:35] you steer them that way.

Michael Joseph: I steer them that way. And it’s the quality of the product and [00:15:40] the results are very predictable.

Payman Langroudi: I think the market is the market [00:15:45] sending you 90% zirconia. The market’s not so aware of zirconia being aesthetic. Not [00:15:50] really.

Michael Joseph: But I’m educating people one by one. Yeah yeah yeah yeah I’m I mean I’m I’m putting [00:15:55] out a PDF this week all about that. Oh really. That’s what you should you [00:16:00] should be doing. Emax is great, but you can’t do knife edge prep with Emax. You can with zirconia. [00:16:05] And Emax has its has its problems. It’s more difficult to mask [00:16:10] a dark stump post and core zirconia. It’s pretty simple. Plus the production is [00:16:15] from a laboratory perspective producing. Zirconia quickly [00:16:20] and in volume. This is is not difficult.

Payman Langroudi: Why is that? What’s the difference? [00:16:25]

Michael Joseph: Well, if you producing Emax, if you either got to press it or mill [00:16:30] it. Now if you’re going to mill emax, you can’t always mill the undercuts. Then you end up spending loads of time [00:16:35] physically fitting it to to the die. Yeah. And if you’ve got to press it. So [00:16:40] let’s say you’re doing digital. You’re going to have to design the coping or the three quarter crown or the full contour [00:16:45] crown. Then you’re going to mill it in wax, invest it, press it, divest it, fit it. [00:16:50]

Payman Langroudi: A lot of extra jobs, a.

Michael Joseph: Lot of extra jobs. Whereas zirconia, you’re either going to you know, you’re going to design, design [00:16:55] it on screen, send it to the milling machine, mill it out, fit it very [00:17:00] quickly. They fit very well, minimal adjustments.

Payman Langroudi: And are you doing all [00:17:05] of those bits in house. Yeah, because some people send the design away right. Yeah.

Michael Joseph: So we we [00:17:10] have design in-house and also we use, we use other designers [00:17:15] because a lot of people work from home. The problem now is, is anyone who’s become really [00:17:20] good at design, they’ve realised, hang on, this is an opportunity for me. I buy my own software, have it at home and I can work as [00:17:25] a contractor. And also to have one person do so much work or two. [00:17:30] People do so much work. It’s just it’s just not practical.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Michael Joseph: So having [00:17:35] one person doing design in house and then other designers all over the country.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:17:40] from the prep perspective, what’s the difference between a zirconia prep [00:17:45] and an Emacs and an Emacs. Well you can.

Michael Joseph: Prep less an Emacs. You’ve got to have a shoulder. If [00:17:50] you don’t have a 360 shoulder, you might get away with that deep of a shoulder millimetre all [00:17:55] the way around. Yeah, people. People do less. Yeah. But in the end, what happens if the material is designed? [00:18:00] But if you look at the Emacs prep guide, they want you to make a millimetre shoulder occlusal 1.5mm [00:18:05] reduction. You can get away with doing less and you can make them really thin. And people, you know, and I’m sure they’ve been [00:18:10] there for a very long time, people have done that. But ultimately the material stops functioning mechanically [00:18:15] when you get thinner than one millimetre, 0.6. Yeah. And [00:18:20] you’re not getting the full characteristics.

Payman Langroudi: That I think is so interesting. Yeah. Because I’m sure you [00:18:25] talk to a bunch of dentists who say, I do Emacs, I do less than that prep and I’m fine. Yeah, [00:18:30] but when you see thousands of cases, that’s [00:18:35] when you start to see the situation as it actually is. Yeah. Yeah. Because [00:18:40] you know, obviously as a technician you’re seeing way, way, way more cases than a single dentist is. [00:18:45] And so for instance, we have a similar thing, you know, three times a month [00:18:50] we get this very patchiness weird patchiness comes up in bleaching right now. [00:18:55] I talked to some dentists. This has never happened to me. Yeah, okay. It’s never happened to you because you’re doing [00:19:00] 12 cases a year. When we’re doing thousands of cases a month, we start to see the patterns [00:19:05] of what’s working and what isn’t. And, you know, the question of what [00:19:10] you can learn from your technician. I think we underestimate [00:19:15] that in the same way as we underestimate what you can learn from your sales rep. Yeah. So while [00:19:20] you were working at evident, you were trying to get in and talk to dentists and all that.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:19:25] a lot of dentists have gatekeepers, don’t they? They have these people trying to the receptionist. Yeah. Stop [00:19:30] you from getting to them. Yeah. And whenever I visit a practice I try to impress on, on the, [00:19:35] on the dentists that, you know, a salesperson is a massive fountain of knowledge [00:19:40] because you’ve got knowledge from the whole market. You’re hearing things, you’re you’re seeing [00:19:45] things. And, you know, you should look at a salesperson or a lab technician [00:19:50] as knowledge base and use that knowledge base. [00:19:55] Absolutely. You know, that that it’s an important point and as far as, you know, constantly [00:20:00] trying to keep away from technicians, away from, you know, the the value add, I [00:20:05] would say from the difference between a brilliant technician and a good technician, is [00:20:10] that communication because fit function [00:20:15] aesthetics, of course. Right. All of that is real. But the amount of [00:20:20] education you can get from your technician now, what do you do about that? Do you do you [00:20:25] build in something regarding feedback on the guys prep? [00:20:30] Yeah, I.

Michael Joseph: Will I’ll tell people if if it’s I’ll let [00:20:35] them know that’s that’s not going to be great. And then like do your best.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the most [00:20:40] common answer right.

Michael Joseph: Yeah. Do your best with what we’ve got. And I’m and they’re like the patients are really difficult. I’m like they’re going [00:20:45] to be really difficult when this doesn’t work out. So it’s easier to get someone back for a re prep than [00:20:50] it is when something doesn’t fit. Yeah. They start to think, hang on, what’s going on here?

Payman Langroudi: So tell me, [00:20:55] there must have been times where you told the dentist this impression isn’t good enough. [00:21:00] He said do your best and then it didn’t fit, or there was a contact point issue or whatever. [00:21:05] And he wants to remake. And now he doesn’t want to pay for a remake, right? That must [00:21:10] have happened. That must happen all the time. Well, I tell them.

Michael Joseph: At that point, if and that usually stops people doing it, I say, [00:21:15] if you want to go ahead with this can be a fully chargeable remake. And then I own. Because [00:21:20] I understand the pressures they’re under. Yeah. You [00:21:25] know the diaries for got to get them back in again. But it’s worth it the [00:21:30] point. And it improves and it improves. We they improve. They’re more careful. [00:21:35] Yeah I think.

Payman Langroudi: You know from the dentist side. Yeah. The especially [00:21:40] less experienced dentists might think that if I have to bring the patient back in it’s embarrassing [00:21:45] and it’s almost an admission of having done something wrong. Mhm.

Michael Joseph: Whereas [00:21:50] I’d say the opposite.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. If you speak with authority and you and you’re honest [00:21:55] and you say look it didn’t quite go the way I wanted it, I want to improve it, [00:22:00] that, that should build relationships rather than. Great. Absolutely. But [00:22:05] too many of us are so worried about bringing the patient back in. Yeah, you can understand [00:22:10] it. You can understand it.

Michael Joseph: I understand why there’s the pressures of the diary, the, um, you know, they’ve done this great selling [00:22:15] thing. We’re going to make you these veneers and it’s going to go on and you’re going to beautiful. Yeah. Behind that is a [00:22:20] lot of work to get that right. And. At every step. It’s got to be done correctly. [00:22:25] So I would say if you’re doing a ten unit prep and you’re running out of time, stop. [00:22:30] Put a temporary on, get them back in again. Yeah. So it’s perfect.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:22:35] let’s talk veneers. Mhm. Because they were very much in fashion 1520 [00:22:40] years ago. Yeah. We we used.

Michael Joseph: To do the, the Rosenthal stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Then they kind of went [00:22:45] out of fashion and you know a line bleach bond. Now that feels like they’re coming back into fashion again.

Michael Joseph: They [00:22:50] are.

Payman Langroudi: Is that right or am I wrong about that.

Michael Joseph: I’m getting more cases. They’re coming a bit more into fashion. [00:22:55] Well I think it’s as we said, people want their aesthetic demands from [00:23:00] Instagram. Yeah, people want to look better and better. And some people, they, they, they look at cosmetic [00:23:05] bonding as the cheaper option. Yeah. And veneers is the more expensive option. [00:23:10] I think cosmetic cosmetic bonding has its place, but it’s only going to last a few [00:23:15] years depending on how well it’s done. Yeah. And it’s it’s really it’s really hard to do it.

Payman Langroudi: Well [00:23:20] it is and I think in the US a lot of our colleagues they call composite just transitional. [00:23:25] You know, they don’t think of it as a permanent material. You know, because it’s so hard to do. [00:23:30] Well you know that. That’s right. But let’s talk veneers. What what [00:23:35] are you getting asked for? You’re getting asked for contact lens. Minimal prep a lot more.

Michael Joseph: Yeah. [00:23:40] Some some of the time. Yeah. You get asked that. But I always say to people why.

Payman Langroudi: Well because I don’t want to prep. [00:23:45]

Michael Joseph: If you’re going to cut the tooth, the tooth is never going to be a virgin tooth again. That’s it. You’ve cut [00:23:50] it. And if you if you do this, you know, people talk about minimally minimal prep and all that. All you end up [00:23:55] with is really bulky stuff. Yeah, yeah. In most parts there are some cases where [00:24:00] there’s smaller teeth, of course, gaps between the teeth. Yeah, you can do no prep, but they’re few and far [00:24:05] between in reality. I know you see them on Instagram. That’s the one case out of a thousand that they could put up there [00:24:10] that yeah, looks good.

Payman Langroudi: The thing is there’s a few things about it. You want to stay in enamel. Yeah. [00:24:15] Because the bond to enamel is way stronger than the bond to dentine. Right. And [00:24:20] if the tooth is in the wrong position to pull that off, then you’re going to be the [00:24:25] one who’s got the problem. Yeah. Because the dentist is trying to stay in enamel and there [00:24:30] is this tension anyway. Every single time you do a prep and send it off to a technician, of course the technician [00:24:35] would want massive occlusal clearance, big, big shoulders. But as as [00:24:40] the dentist you’re constantly trying to not not cut.

Michael Joseph: Yeah I think with these cases you’ve got to start [00:24:45] backwards. You’ve got to start with the end result. You’ve got to do a digital wax up. Yeah. And [00:24:50] then mock that up in the mouth with no prep and see where things stick out.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And what about [00:24:55] shade if you’ve got a dark tooth. Mhm.

Michael Joseph: With [00:25:00] a veneer.

Payman Langroudi: For a veneer or for a crown. What’s the what’s the best [00:25:05] way of number one? Communicating with the technician machine. So [00:25:10] what does that mean?

Michael Joseph: I’m actually this is another thing I’m putting out a PDF all about this. So if you’re going to [00:25:15] do a way of doing a single, let’s say any anterior teeth and getting it right 95% of the time, [00:25:20] yeah, get the patient in and tell them initially I’m going to take a pre-op impression, [00:25:25] take some photographs. Right. Then send them to us for a shade. [00:25:30] Pre-prep. Pre-prep? Yeah. Then when at the beginning of the process, you explain to them that there’s [00:25:35] going to be the process is like this. You’re going to go to the lab, I’m going to prep, then we’re going to do a trying. [00:25:40] And I’m probably going to need we’re going to need to send it back for an adjustment.

Payman Langroudi: Right. [00:25:45] You set them up for them. Set them up for the ability. Right? Right. Okay.

Michael Joseph: Then come to the lab. [00:25:50] We take a shape. They. They take SLR photographs of the stump with the stump. Proper [00:25:55] stump shape guide. Not a V to shade guide.

Payman Langroudi: So what is that? What’s what’s that called?

Michael Joseph: It’s called a [00:26:00] natural guide material. It was made by by Ivoclar. It’s instead of ABCd it’s Nd1 [00:26:05] and D2. Right. Absolutely. You take a photograph with that.

Payman Langroudi: Percentage of dentists have that very few.

Michael Joseph: Some [00:26:10] do those. Yeah some do. I used to give them out.

Payman Langroudi: Because it made [00:26:15] your life that much easier.

Michael Joseph: I used to give them out. And then when the patient comes for. So [00:26:20] we glazed the crown. We want to get it right first time, but the patient thinks it’s a trying use [00:26:25] trial cement because often this happens. It looks really good. And then you cement it in. Yeah. [00:26:30] Just I just had a bit of translucent. So I stuck that in crown changes colour, use trial paste [00:26:35] and then use the corresponding cement to the trial paste. So it’s the same colour. [00:26:40] And maybe first time you’ll be able to cement it. But. And [00:26:45] then the patient’s elated, wow, we got it. We just what? No need. This wasn’t a trade. Or you can tell them this was [00:26:50] it’s come out right. So yeah. And if it’s not right take some more photography with [00:26:55] it in send it back and likelihood. Second [00:27:00] time is going to be right. And and I know a lot of people think I get this. Some people say I paid, I send you them [00:27:05] a shade and it’s not right. It’s artistry. Everything in dentistry we can make to [00:27:10] the micron fit everything but colour, shade. You’ve got to take in [00:27:15] the stump, shade, the thickness of the material, the type of material.

Payman Langroudi: Cement shade.

Michael Joseph: The cement shade. All [00:27:20] of that’s going to be taken into consideration. There’s some really good ways of doing it now with with [00:27:25] a shade I which actually if we use it in the lab, it gives us a prescription.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so [00:27:30] the machine that gives you the shade. Yeah.

Michael Joseph: And it gives us the prescription and it’s very accurate. [00:27:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Michael Joseph: It’s very good really. You have to know how to use it. It’s like anything. It’s just a tool. You’ve got to you’ve got [00:27:40] to learn how to use it.

Payman Langroudi: Is that the Vita?

Michael Joseph: No, it’s it’s made by, um. [00:27:45] I can’t remember the name of.

Payman Langroudi: The shade I.

Michael Joseph: It’s called a shade. I it’s not really [00:27:50] for a dentist, it’s for a lab. And then there’s a guy called Matisse in Switzerland who works with them, who’s developed [00:27:55] this whole system that gives you a, um, accurate shade more than that, gives [00:28:00] you the recipe, tells you what type of zirconia to use, whether you should use Emax, which [00:28:05] stain colours. You should use a mix up to get the desired effect.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, brilliant. Yeah. [00:28:10]

Michael Joseph: But it has to have person with the skill to use that, like a top top [00:28:15] ceramist to be able to do that, to get it right.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s talk about the prep. [00:28:20] Um, outside of the obvious, okay. You need good margins. [00:28:25] Yeah. What would you like from your veneer prep? Would you would you like.

Michael Joseph: Contacts split, the.

Payman Langroudi: Contacts [00:28:30] broken?

Michael Joseph: Yeah. Break the contacts.

Payman Langroudi: Does that help? Yeah.

Michael Joseph: Because otherwise it’s just a [00:28:35] there’s no separation on the model. Yeah. So split contacts [00:28:40] and as much reduction as possible. So even enamel and according to the, according [00:28:45] to what we’ve the wax the wax surface. So it’s got to follow from that. So you have to have a [00:28:50] wax up. Then from the wax up you want to have a invasive, what I call [00:28:55] an invasive wax up. And this is all done functionally on an articulator I’m actually worked with I have a [00:29:00] designer who just does this for me. Um, and in the.

Payman Langroudi: Proximal proximal [00:29:05] thing.

Michael Joseph: Yeah. Nice shape and no undercuts because the knees can’t [00:29:10] go around. They can’t go around corners. You won’t be able to fit them.

Payman Langroudi: And the path [00:29:15] of insertion of a veneer is that sort of facial straight in.

Michael Joseph: Yeah. You want to ideally you want you [00:29:20] want to you want to fit Central’s outwards. Yeah. Because if something’s not [00:29:25] 100% right it’s 99% right. It’s going to be a tiny bit off somewhere over here. Not here. [00:29:30]

Payman Langroudi: And which cement do you like or do you don’t mind.

Michael Joseph: I don’t I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:29:35] know.

Michael Joseph: I don’t I don’t know much about it. That’s another, another thing [00:29:40] is with zirconia now you can you can etch it if we treat it with a lithium disilicate. Lithium [00:29:45] disilicate is, um, is what Emacs is made out of. Yeah, yeah. So when we glaze it, we spray [00:29:50] on the wings if it’s a Maryland or glaze that and then we. And then that’ll [00:29:55] stain just like, uh, just like a non-precious Maryland will stain veneers [00:30:00] as well. Do inlays, onlays from zirconia.

Payman Langroudi: You know [00:30:05] we we’ve got a lab. You just you just saw our lab. Yeah. And we make one item bleaching tray. Right. Simple. [00:30:10] Um, most technicians laugh at me when I talk about it because it’s just the [00:30:15] one item that we make. And yet they have so many hassles, so many hassles [00:30:20] with technicians leaving the time it takes to train one. Believe [00:30:25] it or not, it takes time to train someone. Yeah, no, our bleaching tray takes a bit of training. [00:30:30] How do you manage all of that? From the sort of the business management perspective, how many guys have you [00:30:35] got working there? How do you make sure that if one of them leaves, you’re not suddenly stuck?

Michael Joseph: That [00:30:40] you have that every the each technician could do more than their [00:30:45] own job and then you sort of constantly recording. Yeah. Yeah. And, and also I can pick up [00:30:50] the slack as well if need be. And just building a team where people don’t want [00:30:55] to leave. Creating an environment where people want to stay.

Payman Langroudi: But so the labs that I’ve [00:31:00] had some experience with, they they tend to have people stay late and, you know, it’s [00:31:05] a deadline business. Yeah. Yeah. So does that happen or do people clock off [00:31:10] at 530. What happens? Yeah.

Michael Joseph: Some people finish off a bit later. [00:31:15] Some some people have their own working hours. I’ve got one guy starts 4:00 in the morning, goes home at two. Really? [00:31:20] Yeah. And then sometimes he comes at three and he works till 910 at night. That’s [00:31:25] just what he does. But. Ideally, you can be organised [00:31:30] in a in a way that 95% of the stuff is done on time.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:31:35] from the recruitment perspective, I mean, we recruit.

Michael Joseph: We’re all having is impossible right now.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, we’re all having trouble. [00:31:40]

Michael Joseph: Yeah, it’s impossible to find anyone.

Payman Langroudi: But technicians particularly.

Michael Joseph: Particularly. Yeah, there’s less on the register. [00:31:45] There’s a thousand less than a few years ago than pre-COVID. But I see I, I, [00:31:50] I see that despite all of that, I see the great opportunity because technology means we can do [00:31:55] more and more with less people. Yeah. And I think the most important [00:32:00] thing we’ve got right now, we can, we can use properly is our time. So if we can minimise [00:32:05] the time doing mundane tasks, which is where I think in the next few years most of the tasks, [00:32:10] such as booking in work, does. A lot of the designing will be AI. Yeah, AI [00:32:15] is really going to come in. I don’t think it’s five years ahead. I think it’s 12, 18 months around the corner. [00:32:20] Yeah, yeah. It’s really it’s really there. So that’s going to take save loads of time doing that.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:32:25] when you recruit a technician, are there technicians that are very artistic and [00:32:30] they’re technicians that are very functional.

Michael Joseph: Yeah some are more more. More [00:32:35] technically brilliant than they than their aesthetics, and they both have their value. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then [00:32:40] do you end up having one guy do one bit of it and the other guy do another bit of it? Is [00:32:45] that how it works? Yeah.

Michael Joseph: So I have one ceramist who only does posteriors. Another guy that gives [00:32:50] most of the most of the anterior work to and the larger cases.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:32:55] tell me about scanning versus traditional impressions. What [00:33:00] do you prefer? Scanning. Because of the workflow? Yeah, because.

Michael Joseph: Of the workflow, the accuracy. [00:33:05]

Payman Langroudi: But what about what are the limitations? I mean, my, my understanding.

Michael Joseph: Is limitations.

Payman Langroudi: For [00:33:10] large. Yeah. My, my understanding of it is unless.

Michael Joseph: You’ve got a, um. One [00:33:15] of the a special scanner because you have to verify the position to say you’re doing an [00:33:20] all on four, all on six. So you scan your the scan bodies. But how can we verify. That’s right. [00:33:25] So in the end you end up making a model using open training session code. Pink’s making [00:33:30] a jig picking up an impression, working from a plaster model. There’s no really good way of doing that right now. [00:33:35] And verifying.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, but my understanding is that a scanner is not as good for subgingival. [00:33:40] Stuff. Obviously not.

Michael Joseph: Retraction cord?

Payman Langroudi: Yes. Do you need [00:33:45] to be more aggressive with retraction?

Michael Joseph: Well, the beauty of it is, is when you take an impression, sometimes it’s hard. It’s [00:33:50] hard to read everything back to front. But when you’re scanning, you can see on your screen there. If it’s [00:33:55] not there, start again.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but but from the clinical perspective, I suspect [00:34:00] you have to you have to be more more retractive. Yeah.

Michael Joseph: You need to retract.

Payman Langroudi: Retract [00:34:05] more.

Michael Joseph: You can’t get away with not using cord or spraying a bit of extra. So it’s not going to work. Yeah yeah, yeah. [00:34:10]

Payman Langroudi: What else? I mean, what other situations is scanning? Not as good. Um. [00:34:15]

Michael Joseph: It’s really just a full artwork. Really? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:34:20] do you have a preference on scanners? I mean, you must be scans coming in from all different.

Michael Joseph: They’re all pretty good. The [00:34:25] Dex’s seitaro. Three shape. They’re all pretty good. I [00:34:30] mean, there’s some off market ones and some made by different companies in China that are just as good.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:34:35] you don’t see any pattern of one scanner being better than another.

Michael Joseph: Not that I’ve noticed, really. [00:34:40] No.

Payman Langroudi: I find that surprising than you’d imagine. Yeah, I.

Michael Joseph: Would, I [00:34:45] would have thought so, but they’re all pretty. I maybe I if I probably did a study [00:34:50] you might find came from where I might find something. But they’re all they’re all pretty good now the technology is really [00:34:55] good. But also with scanning things got to be dry. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:35:00] you must have people who don’t check their scans properly. Sort of. Just [00:35:05] send it off. You can.

Michael Joseph: See it. It’s staring you in the face.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but I mean, dude, we get [00:35:10] impressions sometimes.

Michael Joseph: Sometimes impressions. Yeah. We get impressions.

Payman Langroudi: And scans that are wrong. [00:35:15]

Michael Joseph: Sometimes. Sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: You know, and if I do.

Michael Joseph: Call me up and they [00:35:20] say, can you have a quick look at this? Do I need to re scan. Yeah. While I’ve got the they’ve got the patient [00:35:25] there. Yeah. So yeah. Um but sometimes you get stuff and you’re like what the hell is that. Yeah. [00:35:30] And I always think, why are you, why are you only scanning half the arch.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s like using a triple [00:35:35] tray.

Michael Joseph: Yeah I hate triple tray D ah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you still receive triple injections? [00:35:40]

Michael Joseph: And I know people are going to say yeah, I’ve had I take triple triple all the time and everything fits great.

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t [00:35:45] it can’t do right. I mean I never understood it that people think that it’s as good. [00:35:50] It’s an American.

Michael Joseph: Thing isn’t it.

Payman Langroudi: Great.

Michael Joseph: Save time and money. Yeah. The 3 in 1 go. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: See, [00:35:55] you know, the more, the more I sort of think about it, the more I realise. Just [00:36:00] do the basics very well.

Michael Joseph: I get implant impressions. People take people.

Payman Langroudi: Trace. You’re [00:36:05] kidding.

Michael Joseph: And then. Yeah, and they complain about contact points. I’m like, no, I make them videos of [00:36:10] the whole thing moving around before I make the model and send it to them. That’s a yeah. [00:36:15] It’s. Triple tree is fine if you’re doing NHS [00:36:20] work. But if, like someone sent me the other day, they’re doing two veneers, patients come for a shade and [00:36:25] they sent me a triple tray. And I just called them up and said, you got to retake it. Also, [00:36:30] I could see there was a piece of the margin missing, but triple trade, when they’re buying, the whole thing distorts. And I know [00:36:35] there’s probably loads of people use it day in, day out. It’s fine. Maybe if they changed [00:36:40] to taking either scanning or taking full arch impressions, they’d notice they’re adjusting less. I [00:36:45] think people can become unaware of. They’re just like, I’m satisfied with that. Yeah, yeah. [00:36:50]

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the international situation. So you did some training in Norway, [00:36:55] I remember.

Michael Joseph: Yeah, I know, well, I worked in neon. They were like [00:37:00] a their testing centre. Yeah. And at the time when I was in Norway, it was a really strange experience because [00:37:05] it never got dark. Yeah. So you’d be out at night like three in the morning. It’s like we’re.

Payman Langroudi: In the north.

Michael Joseph: No, I was, [00:37:10] I was in Oslo, but it’s also the same in midsummer. It’s like that. Yeah. And I remember they were testing Emacs. [00:37:15] I didn’t know it at the time. They had it there. And I walked into a room and there was some discussion and they came with an NDA. [00:37:20] You got to sign this. Never going there again. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But but technician [00:37:25] wise, yeah. Are some technicians from some countries known to be better. Better at something. [00:37:30]

Michael Joseph: Sometimes. Yeah it was. The German technicians have always had a reputation. But right now I’m noticing [00:37:35] the best technicians in this country come from Romania.

Payman Langroudi: Romania generally.

Michael Joseph: Yeah. Romania, [00:37:40] Romania and Hungary. Dental the best guys right now. I’m thinking [00:37:45] of them. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And when you look at the profile of the people you hire, [00:37:50] how many are trained here and what percentage are.

Michael Joseph: No, they’re all foreign. [00:37:55]

Payman Langroudi: All foreign.

Michael Joseph: Except one. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the pattern that you’ve been seeing. [00:38:00] Yeah. So what’s the reason for that. Why do people not want to become technicians in the UK?

Michael Joseph: Well [00:38:05] before you ever tell. If I ever tell anyone I’m a dental technician, they’re like, what’s that? There’s no awareness of it. Yeah, [00:38:10] no one knows about it. Really? Unless. Unless you’re in it. You don’t know. Unless you’re a dentist, you don’t know much [00:38:15] about it. And also there isn’t there isn’t really a structured career path. Plus lots [00:38:20] of the places where they’re teaching it don’t exist anymore. And I guess the wages [00:38:25] previously are not very appealing. But now they are. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:38:30] see. You see some some labs doing really well. Right. Something for millions and [00:38:35] and then you see lots of labs struggling as well. Mhm. What’s your analysis [00:38:40] as a, as a businessman as you are. You’re very good with business. What’s [00:38:45] your analysis of the reason some labs do so badly and some do so. Well [00:38:50] I think it’s like.

Michael Joseph: John Whibley used to say I used to work for in his northern accent. Say [00:38:55] there’s always work for those who can do it. Mhm. Meaning? Yeah, [00:39:00] if the better your work, the more traditionally if you if you notice, you’ve probably noticed there’s not [00:39:05] much marketing by labs. There’s a bit more on Instagram now, a little bit more. No one. You’ve never seen massive [00:39:10] campaigns by laboratories in this country. You know, that’s because it’s on reputation. So one [00:39:15] dentist tells another tells another, and associate moves. And that’s how people build. [00:39:20] And you just get to know who’s who’s who’s good.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean okay, good work. [00:39:25] But I don’t know why I think this, but I’m thinking there are plenty of technicians who do good [00:39:30] work whose businesses fail.

Michael Joseph: Is that because they’re technicians? They’re not business.

Payman Langroudi: People. [00:39:35] Yeah. So so what are the classic errors? Are they the the same classic errors.

Michael Joseph: Not doing too [00:39:40] much for not enough money.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Michael Joseph: So so and not understanding the economies of the economies [00:39:45] of employing people staff. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The expenses and working in [00:39:50] the business rather than on the business.

Michael Joseph: Right. Like I don’t work at the bench. You can’t I don’t think you can work on [00:39:55] the business while working in it, being in the midst of it.

Payman Langroudi: So how often are you on the bench? [00:40:00] Very, very little.

Michael Joseph: Very rarely.

Payman Langroudi: I ever.

Michael Joseph: See everything. Yeah, but most of the time I’m [00:40:05] in my office either checking things on the way in or on the way out, or if there’s some questions, what are [00:40:10] we going to do here? So I’ll look at something. I’ll make a plan. The guys will execute it. If there’s a problem, [00:40:15] they’ll come, they’ll come and tell me. But generally most of my time is working on the business. [00:40:20] Thinking about the future. I mean, I’ve just moved. I’ve just refurbished and moved. I [00:40:25] moved out for a few months and completely refurbished the laboratory, fully state [00:40:30] of the art now, and I’m thinking I’m going to have to do this again in two years. Hopefully. So a bigger place.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:40:35] what about.

Michael Joseph: I’ve already got no room. Yeah, machines or people.

Payman Langroudi: So already one thing I’ve noticed [00:40:40] that one of the biggest differences between having a lab and having a practice is [00:40:45] that the cost of technology and the frequency of having to [00:40:50] update your technology is way more in a lab than it is in a dental practice. [00:40:55] I mean, we think in a dental practice, you know, you’ve got expensive machines and things in a lab. It’s just [00:41:00] the.

Michael Joseph: Capital expenditure is enormous. That’s why it’s huge. There’s a lot of right now. There’s a lot [00:41:05] there’s a couple of PE companies buying up labs. Yeah. And where I think they’re going to come a cropper is when they, [00:41:10] the capital expenditure that’s realised the cash needed just to run the business.

Payman Langroudi: Just to [00:41:15] renew everything and stay up to date. Right. Yeah. And what do you do about that? I mean staying [00:41:20] up to date. I mean, you’ve got to be a very technical person. Number one, just.

Michael Joseph: Keep watching [00:41:25] the.

Payman Langroudi: Trends.

Michael Joseph: Yeah, yeah. Watching the trends. And I think meaning is coming to an end. [00:41:30] I think it’s going to move into printing. Yeah. You’ll print the zirconia, everything will be printed. And [00:41:35] eventually I think where it’s going to go is that your, your draw a shade diagram [00:41:40] or the photo with the shade tab will be the eye will absorb that and translate [00:41:45] that and print that out. Exactly. And it will just be a matter of finishing it.

Payman Langroudi: But you know, you [00:41:50] were looking at my printers downstairs and we were both talking about how they’re they’re accurate, [00:41:55] but they’re slow and they’re expensive. And, but when we bought them, we bought them for a reason. Right. They were much [00:42:00] better than the previous generation.

Michael Joseph: But that’s that’s the thing. Now everything is moving so quickly. And the [00:42:05] pace of things. Yeah, every week there’s something new.

Payman Langroudi: So then you have to number one from a business perspective, [00:42:10] have this constant like I’m going to have to be spending money on new technology. I think you got to [00:42:15] watch.

Michael Joseph: It very carefully and be very it’s very myself. It’s very easy to become excited about [00:42:20] a new. Yeah, a new thing. Like how much was that carbon, the carbon printer. [00:42:25] Yeah. Well you can’t buy one. I don’t have one. Okay. It’s a subscription model. Oh, it’s about [00:42:30] 5000 a month plus VAT.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Michael Joseph: But it’s a brilliant printer. [00:42:35] In the sense it never goes. It’s a production machine. It’s what you need.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:42:40] it is what I need. It is. Yeah, I was I was in a hit, slap hit Palmer and yeah, I’ve been there maybe [00:42:45] three times. And every time he’s there unboxing and and plugging stuff [00:42:50] in and, you know, continuous CapEx. Yeah.

Michael Joseph: Yeah. Just in the last two weeks [00:42:55] I’ve got a I’ve got a new wet mill and a new printer.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Joseph: It’s continuous [00:43:00] I think at the moment it’s, it’s getting to the decisions. Right. I know one [00:43:05] lab in particular that was very, very successful. They embraced digital very, very [00:43:10] early on. And he made the right decisions about which direction to go. If [00:43:15] you can imagine when when zirconia first started there were the three machines. Yeah, right. [00:43:20] The 200, there were 250 K bloodier. And all they could do was mirror zirconia, [00:43:25] crown or bridge. And then within three years, Roland made a machine for 20 grand [00:43:30] that did the same, in fact, probably better. It moves like that. [00:43:35] You know, it’s really like even me, I my first printer like using a £12,000. [00:43:40] Yeah. Can print two, three models on the build tray. I’ve got smaller, smaller one. And then. [00:43:45] I realised I can get a something like a frozen print. 20 models [00:43:50] cost £2,000.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:43:55] then when your business moves forward and you need to grow, [00:44:00] you have to constantly like sort of think about the financial implications of [00:44:05] growth. Massive CapEx. Yeah.

Michael Joseph: Yeah. All the time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So [00:44:10] you must have done this several times in the past right? Yeah.

Michael Joseph: So recently being the the the biggest [00:44:15] one.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So, so like how much did you spend.

Michael Joseph: A 500,000. [00:44:20]

Payman Langroudi: 500,000. Yeah. Just on this latest evolution.

Michael Joseph: On, um, [00:44:25] that’s refurbishing the place. I mean, like ripping everything out the floor, the plumbing, putting a proper [00:44:30] cat6 network in a proper compressed air network in, um, proper [00:44:35] flooring, benching. I didn’t even if I was gone for, like, sort of carbo benching. That’s million. [00:44:40] I had it custom made. It was just cvos just out of reach to have like Italian proper [00:44:45] made benching hundreds of thousands just for the benching. Really? Um, yeah. [00:44:50] So I had custom made benching. And then there’s all the equipment, there’s the hand pieces, the, the extraction [00:44:55] sandblasters, mini machines, furnaces. Herm [00:45:00] pieces.

Payman Langroudi: And I mean, do you worry that you spend that money in it and you’ll never [00:45:05] get it back like that? That worry must be constant, right?

Michael Joseph: Yeah, I think over, over [00:45:10] time. I’ll get that back.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’m sure you will. I’m sure. Yeah, I’m sure you will. But. But in general. Yeah, of course. [00:45:15]

Michael Joseph: It’s a massive expenditure. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a big risk to take.

Michael Joseph: And every month there’s always something.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah, [00:45:20] yeah.

Michael Joseph: You know, you know, like in any business, you know it can be it can be anything as well. It’s not always. It’s [00:45:25] not always the machinery. Last week it was the front door.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah.

Michael Joseph: It just wouldn’t [00:45:30] shut. Let’s get a new front door.

Payman Langroudi: What about trends [00:45:35] as far as dentists? I mean, how do you stay abreast of those? I mean, now there’s this VAT prep, [00:45:40] right? Do you does that surprise you? Something must do, right? Yeah.

Michael Joseph: I’m just I’m just sort [00:45:45] of monitoring it and see see what’s going on. Yeah. You know, see see see how well that works for [00:45:50] people before I sort of dive in and think, oh, we’ve got to do it like this. I think there’s also the, [00:45:55] you know, using, um, full arches with no bases or abutments. [00:46:00] The what’s it called again? The rose and screw.

Payman Langroudi: You know. And I know what you’re talking about.

Michael Joseph: Yeah. [00:46:05] So instead of, you know, when you’ve got a zirconia frame so you have some titanium [00:46:10] bases or a framework inside. So now no frame screws straight into zirconia.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [00:46:15] really? Yeah.

Michael Joseph: So just seeing where that goes.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:46:20] from the implant perspective, um, what are what are you seeing [00:46:25] happening more now? I mean, I saw you had that document on how to how to fix a [00:46:30] malaligned implant. Yeah. And I scanned it. [00:46:35] Man. It was kind of a bent screwdriver sort of thing.

Michael Joseph: Yeah. Talking about angulated screws. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:46:40] the screw itself is angulated. Yeah. The, the.

Michael Joseph: The screw height is, is hexa [00:46:45] lobule. And the screw driver can engage. Come in from the side. Yeah. Come in from the side. That’s one one of the things. And [00:46:50] even now using multi units. Multi units. Correct the angle. And then you can on top of that you can use [00:46:55] an angled screw with the multi unit.

Payman Langroudi: I.

Michael Joseph: See. Yeah. Because you want everything to be screw retained. [00:47:00] Its the best. You don’t want to use cement around your implants.

Payman Langroudi: Periodontitis on [00:47:05] this port. We like to talk about mistakes. And if you read [00:47:10] black box thinking. Yeah about plane crashes. Um and it’s about [00:47:15] when there’s a plane crash, they, they first of all figure out what [00:47:20] went wrong without assigning blame. Right.

Michael Joseph: Whereas air [00:47:25] crash investigation. Yeah. The first thing they want to get is the black box. What went.

Payman Langroudi: Wrong? What went wrong? As [00:47:30] soon as they find out what went wrong, they share that with the whole pilot community [00:47:35] again without assigning blame. And then the whole pilot community [00:47:40] learns from that mistake because there was a, you know, massive crash. People died, right? Mhm. But [00:47:45] in medical, when things go wrong, we tend to try [00:47:50] and hide. And particularly the blame part of it because [00:47:55] we tend to look for someone to blame. Mhm. And so to [00:48:00] sort of counteract that. On this pod. We like to talk about biggest mistakes you’ve [00:48:05] made. And there must be many.

Michael Joseph: Um, [00:48:10] I think one of the biggest, the biggest mistakes was not embracing digital technology early [00:48:15] earlier on. Yeah, I could have, I, I should have I should have got into that [00:48:20] earlier. That’s one of the biggest things, and. [00:48:25]

Payman Langroudi: I’d like a juicier one than that, though.

Michael Joseph: A juicier one.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like this one in particular. So yeah, a situation [00:48:30] that went wrong for you, you know, like, uh, some [00:48:35] crown you made wrong.

Michael Joseph: Yeah. I once made a full arch for someone, [00:48:40] and and and we were using, what, the time they call, um, southern passive [00:48:45] abutments. And I ordered hexed ones without [00:48:50] knowing it, so they were engaging. So you got six. So you need non hex. You need so it doesn’t engage [00:48:55] the hex. Yeah. And I only noticed this when I went to glue them on and it’s never going [00:49:00] to fit. So I thought oh I’ll just order the non hex ones and they’ll fit the same. And they had a different fitting [00:49:05] and I spent. About six hours trying to grind [00:49:10] off to get them to fit. I got them to fit. It’s actually the best piece of work I’ve ever done. Yeah, [00:49:15] right. Still, I was talking to the dentist. I did it for the other day. I was saying to him, I need the photos, I want them for Instagram. [00:49:20] And that was fun. Things like that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But yesterday [00:49:25] they went right. I want something that went wrong.

Michael Joseph: Yesterday I mailed a full arch and the the [00:49:30] block was upside down. So the translucency, instead of being in the tips of the eye [00:49:35] like that was in the tissue, that was yesterday. And that was because when [00:49:40] we imported the file it was upside down. The bridge was upside down. Okay. So when [00:49:45] when did you notice I didn’t nest it? I, I only noticed it yesterday afternoon. It’s got to go out tomorrow [00:49:50] okay.

Payman Langroudi: So it didn’t go out at least. No. That’s something that went out. Dentist got pissed or something like that. [00:49:55]

Michael Joseph: Loads of times.

Payman Langroudi: Well I was wrong I think. I think what I’m really interested in here, some technique [00:50:00] that you brought in that turned out to be a [00:50:05] turkey and then you were seeing failure on failure on failure, failure going forward [00:50:10] because we’ve all done it as a dentist, right? Someone said, hey, try the procera crown [00:50:15] or something, something some turkey, and you’ve done a 40 of them and then [00:50:20] they start coming back break broken or oh yeah, whatever it was. Oh.

Michael Joseph: Doing [00:50:25] implant restorations, denture teeth with bars. You know, like a hybrid. Yeah. I won’t do any of those anymore. [00:50:30]

Payman Langroudi: Because they kept breaking.

Michael Joseph: They keep breaking because if the bike’s not perfect, the function’s not right. They’re going to break. And [00:50:35] they just. And they just keep coming back for repairs and repairs, and you end up spending thousands or [00:50:40] something you build a couple of grand for. It’s like, it just just won’t do it. Had you.

Payman Langroudi: Done a bunch before, [00:50:45] you realised.

Michael Joseph: I had loads of them, about 20 of them, and some in particular that [00:50:50] were like the weekly, you know, it’s back in the end. I said to me, but I’m just going to remake it [00:50:55] just in full contour and it just done it. That’s that’s also a great thing [00:51:00] about digital. Now if you if you made if you before you went through the whole pace of process of making [00:51:05] a full arch, let’s say. So you’ve done a you’ve done a denture trying, you’ve done the verification [00:51:10] jig, you’ve made the frame, you’ve cast it in metal, you’ve layered the ceramic. If anything [00:51:15] happens to that, it breaks. You’ve got to start at the beginning. So now let’s say we do a full arch [00:51:20] on a titanium bar that’s bonded together with a zirconia sleeve on the top. And this has [00:51:25] happened. Someone fell off their bike, smashed the front two teeth. Guy called me out. [00:51:30] He says, what can we do about this? I said, I’ll mill another one from the file. Stain [00:51:35] it, get it ready, then bring him in on Tuesday morning. Unscrew it. Send it to us. [00:51:40] Getting to hang around in the practice because he can’t walk around without any teeth, and we just bonded [00:51:45] the old one put the other one together. It was a bit risky. There’s no model. These things are not. And [00:51:50] then the afternoon bang done. That was nice. That saved 15 appointments and [00:51:55] 20,000 hours work and yeah so but loads loads loads [00:52:00] loads of screw ups loads. You know over.

Payman Langroudi: In the last 15 years, 20 years, whatever it is you’ve been in [00:52:05] business was your hardest day in business.

Michael Joseph: My hardest day. I [00:52:10] think it was. It was a day my dad died and I came in and and [00:52:15] someone was screaming at me on the phone. Something was totally their fault. And I was just I was [00:52:20] just listening to it. And yeah, that was really that was really hard because [00:52:25] it wouldn’t be professional for me to say, well, actually, my dad just died and leave me, leave me alone. Yeah. Um, [00:52:30] and they were completely in the wrong and they were just venting their own frustration. Which [00:52:35] I can understand, you know, and I standing there listening to it and at [00:52:40] the time. My my operations manager is just sitting there going, [00:52:45] but she knows what’s going on. And I was just like, okay, okay, okay. A [00:52:50] week later, he called me and he realised. To which normally I might have argued [00:52:55] with him, but at that point I was just like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you were at work when you heard [00:53:00] about your dad?

Michael Joseph: He died that morning. But the nature of the lab is [00:53:05] you’ve got to go. I can’t leave it. People are relying on me. I can’t that can’t [00:53:10] be an excuse.

Payman Langroudi: You went in on the day you passed away.

Michael Joseph: I spoke to the the the people [00:53:15] that arranged, you know, the funeral. And I actually went to go to [00:53:20] the the office and get this bit of paper signed so they can release the body. And it’s like running around to a few offices and [00:53:25] not waiting. And then I got this piece of, I think it’s a green bit of paper. So the hospital [00:53:30] released the body. So I got that done and I thought, okay, I’ve got an hour before the funeral, so I’ll go [00:53:35] quickly to work. And just as I walked in, this, this guy called and I happened to pick up the phone. I don’t [00:53:40] know why. I was a bit in a daze. I just picked up the phone. Hasn’t sunk in what’s happened? But yeah, that’s a pretty hard [00:53:45] day.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Batman. I don’t want to get too Freudian, but [00:53:50] how was your relationship with your dad?

Michael Joseph: It was good. He was my. He [00:53:55] was my. He was a really interesting guy. You know what? My slogan right now is? Keep smiling. [00:54:00] I’ve got it in on a neon sign now in the in the office. And it’s [00:54:05] on my boxes. It’s on. You’ve probably seen it on all my all my marketing stuff. And I actually [00:54:10] got that from him. He was an osteopath. And in the 70s he was kind of way ahead of his time. He went [00:54:15] to to the Parker School of Chiropractic in in Michigan. Like in these, these [00:54:20] mid-winter, darkest Michigan in mid-winter to learn cranial osteopathy and bring it to the UK. [00:54:25] And while he was there way before Anthony Robbins or any of these guys even existed, [00:54:30] there was Zig Ziglar, if you’ve ever heard of him. Right. Zig Ziglar to the Zig Ziglar seminars, really. [00:54:35] And I had I remember my first Zig Ziglar tapes. They were tapes because they were in his car. He used to listen to [00:54:40] them, and he had this business card that said, keep smiling on it. [00:54:45] And that was his thing. You got to keep your patients smiling. It was like a 70s American thing. And [00:54:50] till he died, he had that. He had that business card. So I’ve kind of [00:54:55] using Keep Smiling Now as my slogan. Yeah, he was a big inspiration [00:55:00] for me.

Payman Langroudi: And was it, I guess another like a business owner, [00:55:05] right. Did you learn some of the business skills from him?

Michael Joseph: Well, he was an osteopath. He had a practice, but he also had other businesses [00:55:10] in orthotics and making medical devices. Oh really? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no orthotics business. And [00:55:15] yeah, he was very into business and. He [00:55:20] was encouraged. He was encouraged me to do things like that. And he was like, he was actually [00:55:25] how I got the job in a lab was I’d been travelling and I had this. I, you know, I’ve been as [00:55:30] you do after school. And I came back and I’d grown an interest in dental technology through [00:55:35] working overseas as a courier on a bike, taking stuff from labs to [00:55:40] to practices. And I came back and is the days of the Evening Standard and he saw [00:55:45] a trainee dental technician wanted he didn’t even tell me he called them up. And so yes, [00:55:50] he was premiered in in East London and he, he called up John Gerrard and [00:55:55] he said, I’m going to bring my son down, you know, and I’d been travelling, you know, I was like taking it easy. And [00:56:00] that’s how I got into it. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Also my, my job [00:56:05] with evident was that him as well evening standard. Um [00:56:10] Stephen he was he was advertising for someone to cover. Do you remember saffron. [00:56:15] Saffron Saunders. Yeah. Yeah. So I was her maternity cover. Yeah. Oh, and [00:56:20] that’s how I got into it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I see, and did you not think about doing something around [00:56:25] loops yourself? Yeah I did.

Michael Joseph: Oh you did. Yeah I did. Initially I thought that. But [00:56:30] at the time there was just Horoscopic and a couple of others. But I really [00:56:35] did learn so much from him about selling and being professional. [00:56:40] Whatever he had, that, that thing, whatever happens, you know, he was very he was like almost like a strict [00:56:45] taskmaster. But I remember getting my first sales and realising, yeah, [00:56:50] this stuff, he’s right.

Payman Langroudi: This works well ahead of his time. Stephen. Yeah, yeah. [00:56:55] Well ahead of his time.

Michael Joseph: And he taught me I learned from him doing something properly. Yeah. [00:57:00] Like even his database. There wasn’t an out of place comma, a capital letter that shouldn’t [00:57:05] be there. He was. Yeah. I learned a lot from him in those years about.

Payman Langroudi: I know [00:57:10] you’re divorced. You must have had periods of stress in that. No, I [00:57:15] mean, as it relates to work, though, do you have times where I.

Michael Joseph: Was completely [00:57:20] burnt out? At times.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Michael Joseph: I mean, during the pandemic, obviously we were closed when that happened. [00:57:25] That was like, I remember I was in the I was at the Sharks, Chicago at the day [00:57:30] Midwinter. Yeah, I think that was the end of February. Yeah. It was a beginning of March. [00:57:35] It was freezing. It was freezing. It was quite mild. It was it was a mild one. And I was out [00:57:40] there and I came back and I got off the plane in the morning and I was, you know, the train that takes you from terminal to terminal in Heathrow. [00:57:45] And I was holding on to the thing and I was looking down and there’s a guy sitting down, he’s wearing a mask. And I thought to myself, well, [00:57:50] Wally, what are you wearing that for? And then within three weeks we were all in lockdown, the lab was closed [00:57:55] and I was just my, my, my wife at the time had [00:58:00] to watch. She kept working from home. She worked for a clothing manufacturer, and I used to take my son every day [00:58:05] to the park the whole day to get him out of the house, because he was two and we were living in a small house [00:58:10] and she had to work.

Michael Joseph: And then when I came back when we opened in June or July, [00:58:15] you know, some of my staff had gone. They’d left, they’d gone to Poland, and I didn’t have [00:58:20] the staff anymore. I lost a lot of business. I couldn’t maintain what I was doing. I lost probably [00:58:25] about half the customer base. Wow. It was. And then I was and I was also completely burnt out. [00:58:30] Wow. Yeah. And then and then got divorced and [00:58:35] then coming out of that. So a couple of years ago, I was actually looking at all different things. [00:58:40] I mean, I was even looking into producing suppositories for things [00:58:45] at the time. There was glycerine suppositories. They couldn’t buy them in this country. And the [00:58:50] pharmacist next door to me, I was looking into I was looking to all kinds of things. And then it kind of dawned on me, I know how [00:58:55] to do this dentistry thing really well. And I’m going to focus on this. [00:59:00] And that’s when I embrace digital. And then a few months later [00:59:05] I realised I need a new lab. I need to gut this place and start again. [00:59:10] And that’s what I did.

Payman Langroudi: And what would you say? I mean, you’re kind of framing it as the timing [00:59:15] of your divorce was also the timing of the business dropping. Would you say that that [00:59:20] the pandemic.

Michael Joseph: The pandemic.

Payman Langroudi: Accelerated your divorce somehow?

Michael Joseph: No. [00:59:25] Not necessarily.

Payman Langroudi: Was it on the cards? How did you feel about it was on.

Michael Joseph: The I guess it was on the cards. It [00:59:30] was on the cards. And I realised it’s the best thing. For all [00:59:35] of us. But it all came together. Burn out. It all happen at the same. Yeah, it was a really [00:59:40] getting getting that way.

Payman Langroudi: And when you say burn out, what does that actually mean? [00:59:45] You don’t want to get out of bed?

Michael Joseph: No. Just no passion for it. Oh, it’s [00:59:50] just.

Payman Langroudi: Like just going through the motions. Yeah, yeah. I’ve been through periods [00:59:55] of my life like that. Not necessarily because I’m working too hard, but just somehow it wasn’t.

Michael Joseph: From working too. [01:00:00]

Payman Langroudi: Hard. Oh, okay. Just too much.

Michael Joseph: Point for the previous few years, right. Five years. It just [01:00:05] been going along business okay growing particularly, but [01:00:10] I was maintaining what I was doing. I was pretty happy. And then then I realised it kind [01:00:15] of just I suppose over a period of time it got to me and then the pandemic and then I had a lot of time [01:00:20] to think. And normally you don’t have time to think. I don’t have time to think.

Payman Langroudi: And I [01:00:25] think, you know, with a, with a it’s definitely.

Michael Joseph: The pressure.

Payman Langroudi: Cooker. Yeah.

Michael Joseph: Yeah, yeah it definitely it, it [01:00:30] kicked the stuffing out of the business in me when.

Payman Langroudi: When you’ve spent years [01:00:35] building something up to watch it drop away quickly is [01:00:40] particularly painful.

Michael Joseph: It was painful because when I came back [01:00:45] the start the customers were all there. I just lost staff, [01:00:50] critical people that I couldn’t, I couldn’t replace.

Payman Langroudi: You can actually do the work.

Michael Joseph: And there weren’t any [01:00:55] staff. It was like now it was. I couldn’t and I couldn’t physically do it all myself. So [01:01:00] I, you know, that all dropped off. And then a couple of big clients, they were like. [01:01:05] And especially then they just come back from the pandemic. They were inundated with work. [01:01:10] That’s right. And I couldn’t I couldn’t keep up.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right.

Michael Joseph: The thing that really got me one [01:01:15] day was I was making a bridge for someone who selectively extracts teeth and [01:01:20] places a temporary. Okay. Yeah. Then. And he called me up and he said, he said to me, this [01:01:25] is like a4 lc for B1. And I realised. [01:01:30] Explain this. I’m just too stretched. Yeah, and I lost [01:01:35] it. And that’s a ten year customer. One of my originals.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a nightmare, [01:01:40] man. It’s a nightmare. Because, I mean, I remember before furlough [01:01:45] came into play.

Michael Joseph: You having nightmares, too, about it?

Payman Langroudi: Hell, [01:01:50] yeah. I mean, we closed maybe two weeks before the [01:01:55] word furlough came out.

Michael Joseph: Yeah. Me too.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, and we closed before they told [01:02:00] us to close. Maybe, I don’t know, a week before they told us to close, but we [01:02:05] we got our team together, and at the time, we were overstaffed. We’ve got [01:02:10] fewer people now. That time we had a lot of people. And, uh, we said, look, [01:02:15] we’ve got to either fire half our team or everyone’s got to take a 50% pay cut. You know, [01:02:20] what do we do? What should we do? And they all kind of, uh, said, [01:02:25] we’ll take a pay cut. And a bunch of all of them. They were losing their flats and [01:02:30] things because their roommates were suddenly getting up and leaving and going home, and it was a really [01:02:35] weird time.

Michael Joseph: It’s weird. I remember that period.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And everyone went, I was thinking.

Michael Joseph: That, do I have to let [01:02:40] everyone go? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: No, but, you know, it’s not a it’s not a it’s not a story that, that every single business went through [01:02:45] it. Yeah. But the feeling of I’ve spent 20 years building this thing and [01:02:50] in 20 days time, it could just disappear. It’s gone. Yeah. It’s a really strange feeling. [01:02:55] And we’re in business in general. You have got that feeling of it could all end tomorrow. [01:03:00] You know what keeps you up about the business? What keeps you up at night? [01:03:05]

Michael Joseph: Keeping the work coming in. Yeah, sometimes [01:03:10] I do. I do think about particular bits of work can get me up at night. [01:03:15]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, a particular job? Yeah.

Michael Joseph: As I feel. I feel the, you know, you feel a lot of pressure. [01:03:20]

Payman Langroudi: A lot of dentists can relate to that.

Michael Joseph: Yeah, sure. I, you know, I might call them up and said, you know what? [01:03:25] If I called this the dentist up, who’s involved? He’d probably say, yeah, I was thinking about that. Yeah, [01:03:30] yeah, yeah. Sometimes there’s a lot of a lot of pressure to get things right and [01:03:35] on time. And there’s no there’s no leeway. It’s either right [01:03:40] and on time or it’s not. It’s not nearly that, you know, it’s not one of those, you know, it’s not an essay. [01:03:45] It’s decent but not good enough.

Payman Langroudi: It could be a technician, could be a thankless job as well, [01:03:50] insomuch as it is. Yeah. Insomuch as you don’t see the final.

Michael Joseph: As a technician. [01:03:55] Anything that happens in a dentist’s life is your fault. I used to have a joke with one of my clients [01:04:00] that said, you’re one of your kids falls over in the playground. Somehow that’s my fault. I’m [01:04:05] somehow involved in that.

Payman Langroudi: But even when it goes brilliantly, you don’t end up really [01:04:10] seeing that. I mean, I guess I don’t.

Michael Joseph: Care about that. Well, I don’t need the recognition. Well, you.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of want [01:04:15] it, don’t you? I don’t mean recognition in public. I mean just just from other dentists. No, [01:04:20] just as a dentist. Okay. You do a brilliant plan. You prep it properly, you scan it, you [01:04:25] send it off, then this fit day, right? And you fit it and it all works. And then you’ve got appreciative patients [01:04:30] saying, thank you so much, paying their money as a technician, you miss out on both [01:04:35] ends of that, right? And even if it goes really well, most often you’re [01:04:40] not getting call from a dentist saying, hey, that really fit well.

Michael Joseph: You only hear when it’s wrong.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:04:45] yeah. Well, do you sometimes get that call occasionally?

Michael Joseph: Yeah. I don’t for me, that’s never. [01:04:50] If I don’t, if I don’t hear, if I do ask and it’s right and it and [01:04:55] it it fitted well, then I’ve done my job. That’s my job. I’m [01:05:00] not bothered by public recognition. I want the word to spread [01:05:05] that my my work is good, but I’m not bothered by that. My motivations are. [01:05:10] But I’d kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Call you an extrovert, though. Not not an introvert. How would you characterise. [01:05:15] Yeah, I’m an extrovert.

Michael Joseph: Yeah. I think a lot of people who work with me, it’s because they they enjoy. We have [01:05:20] a lot of fun together. I have a lot of fun doing this.

Payman Langroudi: But most technicians I find are sort of borderline [01:05:25] sort of autistic on the spectrum.

Michael Joseph: That’s the reason why a lot of labs fail. They [01:05:30] can’t deal with the.

Payman Langroudi: Human side of it.

Michael Joseph: The human side of it.

Payman Langroudi: So then what is [01:05:35] with your top customers? Are you friends with them? Do you or are you on the phone with them? Some of them.

Michael Joseph: I have lunch with once [01:05:40] a week.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Michael Joseph: So there’s one in particular. I talk to him every day, and I know when [01:05:45] he calls me up and he goes, you know, when I did this yesterday, that wasn’t right. And, you know, it wasn’t good enough. I know he’s just it’s [01:05:50] that morning bad mood. I don’t say anything. I’m just like, yeah, yeah, just [01:05:55] let him. Yeah. And like this guy, right? I’m friends with him. But even though we’re from [01:06:00] the same community, he’d never invite me to his house for dinner party to a dinner party. [01:06:05] I’m the friend he’s got. He can be real with. There’s no social [01:06:10] norms to be adhered to. He can go to lunch with me, say whatever he wants. It’s not connected to his family, [01:06:15] his wider social circle. It’s like. Like like a priest, [01:06:20] almost. Yeah, yeah, not not so much. But he can, you know, he can tell me everything. He can’t tell any [01:06:25] of his other friends. I’m also. And I see he makes an effort to keep me out of that. [01:06:30] And he’s quite happy with that. I like that. I mean, in.

Payman Langroudi: Life we do sometimes do have this compartmentalisation [01:06:35] kind of thing. Yeah.

Michael Joseph: We all do have friends that we don’t mix. Yeah, some circles [01:06:40] don’t mix.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, because we’re different people in different situations. But I’m interested in this [01:06:45] sort of I want to unpack some of the sort of hierarchy of it. [01:06:50] And I bet there are dentists who sort of they feel like they’re above you and [01:06:55] they, they order you about, or you come back with something. You shouldn’t have come back [01:07:00] with that because they’re they made the decision. And they may tell me about that, that it must [01:07:05] happen.

Michael Joseph: It does. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I’ll unpack [01:07:10] it for me a little bit. Well, that’s.

Michael Joseph: You know what it reminds me of? Um. [01:07:15] It’s like, well, let me explain first. I’ll tell you my analogy. [01:07:20] I just know it works like that. I’m I’m doing the [01:07:25] technical work. Klipsch is doing his bit and sometimes there’s a bit of [01:07:30] it should be a collaborative approach, but a lot of the time sometimes it just it just feeds down. You [01:07:35] get the negativity. That’s part of it. That’s part of the business. Just accept it so it doesn’t [01:07:40] look great with, you know, it’s like, have you seen The Godfather Part two? Yeah. When Hyman Roth. [01:07:45] Meets Michael Corleone. And he said. And he talks about when he killed Moe Greene. He didn’t. [01:07:50] He just says, this is the business we were in. That’s how I view it. This is the business we’re in. This is how it works. I’m trying [01:07:55] to change it. You know, it stems from it actually being [01:08:00] an upstairs downstairs business. Yeah, 100%. But it comes from that, [01:08:05] that hierarchy socially in in this country for sure.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But [01:08:10] what I’m saying is sometimes that hierarchy must get in the way. Right. Because [01:08:15] sometimes you’re right. He’s wrong. He pulls rank. What are you doing? Do [01:08:20] you. You must have had a situation where it’s come.

Michael Joseph: To sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: Blows.

Michael Joseph: Yeah, sometimes. Sometimes it’s [01:08:25] ended the relationship.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Michael Joseph: It’s ended the relationship.

Payman Langroudi: Go on, tell me. Explain it. Go talk me [01:08:30] through a situation.

Michael Joseph: Sorry, I sent I sent a guy a verification jig. We’re doing a full arch. [01:08:35] What is that, a verification jig? So he’s taken a primary impression with just pre digital a few [01:08:40] years ago. Yeah. Taking a primary impression. I’ve taken made a model. Taking the impression copings off. I’ve [01:08:45] screwed them in the model. Linked it all together with Jewel, sliced it up and made it a [01:08:50] special tray to go on the top. So the idea is he screws that in the mouth, links up the the [01:08:55] jewel and takes an impression. Yeah. So he sends me the impression I make the frame bearing [01:09:00] in mind with Atlantis thousand quid to minute. Well. And he [01:09:05] gets it back for trying. He says it doesn’t fit. And I’m like, what? And I remembered I [01:09:10] hadn’t asked him to take a photograph on his phone of the verification. So I said, have you got [01:09:15] a photo of the verification? He said, yeah, sure. And he sent it to me and he he’d screwed it in on the model, [01:09:20] his original model. Linked it all together and send it back to me. [01:09:25] So we verified. And I said to him, well, [01:09:30] you know, I’m going to charge you another grand. We never we never we never did the work. And [01:09:35] he said, what should I do with this stuff? And I was just like, just keep it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Did he pull around [01:09:40] it? Yeah. What did he say? He said.

Michael Joseph: I verified it, you know, I know what [01:09:45] I’m doing. I’m like, you just sent me a picture of a model where you you meant to verify in the [01:09:50] patient’s mouth. And I realised you haven’t got a grasp of what we’re actually trying to do here. Not [01:09:55] not, you know, and a lot of [01:10:00] a lot of the time I work with people I see immediately. Wow. These guys different level. [01:10:05] I got to keep up here and I got to learn here. Yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Mean, technicians, [01:10:10] probably the best person to ask about who’s the best dentist, right?

Michael Joseph: Yeah. People always ask me for socially. [01:10:15] People ask me. I always tell them the same thing. What? Go to the same people. I’m not going to say oh, [01:10:20] something the same because I know they’re never going to go there. Never, never. I’m done with like [01:10:25] sending people to like dentist. I know because it always comes back to me somehow. They’re not happy, or [01:10:30] so I just tell them. Go to the most expensive dentist in town. You probably know. Yeah. [01:10:35] And then they call them up, find out this and that, and then when they get it wrong, I [01:10:40] say, I told you you should have gone there.

Payman Langroudi: But but as part of that issue, you see [01:10:45] loads of preps coming in. Yeah. Some people are consistently doing [01:10:50] excellent preps, excellent impressions. Yeah. And the opposite right.

Michael Joseph: And the opposite is some people I [01:10:55] literally make everything twice. I’m just used to it. Yeah. It’s so.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. Is it.

Michael Joseph: Yeah. And some [01:11:00] people it’s so precise.

Payman Langroudi: And then what relationship is [01:11:05] there between sort of the, the status of that guy. And I mean.

Michael Joseph: All [01:11:10] we say all the same, I don’t, I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Know. But what I’m saying is, do you see some general [01:11:15] practitioner that no one’s heard of doing brilliant work.

Michael Joseph: Yes, absolutely. Someone is [01:11:20] literally the dirtiest mic surgery in in, I don’t know, wherever [01:11:25] it is, wherever it is in terrible part of London or something. Doing fantastic work. Yeah. And [01:11:30] then you get someone in the swisher’s practice, you know, with the famous name all [01:11:35] over Instagram, all over the place, 150,000 followers, consistently, consistently [01:11:40] giving you rubbish. Absolutely. Oh, yeah. Interesting. [01:11:45] But, I mean, there’s no everyone [01:11:50] gets I, you know, I deal with everyone in the same in the same manner, trying to provide them with the very [01:11:55] best service I can, the best work the best. And I try, I try [01:12:00] to be there. You know, like a good. If [01:12:05] you’ve got a good assistant, let’s say good operations manager, who knows [01:12:10] you, you’ve got this appointment and you’re likely to forget your keys. Yeah, she’s standing there with your keys, [01:12:15] or he’s standing there with your keys. So I know that if I’ve sent someone. A job which [01:12:20] needs an angled screwdriver. I’m going to call him up and put a big sticker on it, because they’re not going to remember [01:12:25] just thinking ahead because they’re busy.

Michael Joseph: Or I remind them, we’re doing this. [01:12:30] Don’t forget to do that. You know, or call me up and let [01:12:35] me know what that takes a picture. Let me. You know, because I’m thinking ahead. I don’t want him to have to do something again or. And [01:12:40] they appreciate that. Yeah. I’m thinking for them that’s part of the service. We’re thinking, [01:12:45] what what are you going to encounter? I love that. So if you’re gonna. Yeah. It’s [01:12:50] like I send someone. In the other day. It was they’ve done a central [01:12:55] and for some reason very deep, and I didn’t think, I thought they may be the impression coping hadn’t engaged [01:13:00] properly, because the crown is in the mouth is like two millimetres shorter than it is on the model. [01:13:05] So. When I sent him the crown, I wasn’t sure. So I made him a special tray [01:13:10] because he complained, you can’t cut through the tray at that corner. It’s very thick to [01:13:15] take an open tray impression, and he was using a closed train. I think that was the problem. So try and think [01:13:20] ahead.

Payman Langroudi: So notice now you’re much more on social [01:13:25] media. Yeah. Is that sort of an active effort to get back this 500 [01:13:30] grand you just spent?

Michael Joseph: Yes, absolutely. And and then [01:13:35] just live on Instagram.

Payman Langroudi: I know, I know that, I know that. So, you know, but you yourself are on [01:13:40] camera demonstrating stuff, talking about stuff.

Michael Joseph: And there’s loads more [01:13:45] to come. I’m going to be doing a masterclasses. So our lunchtime, uh, webinars. [01:13:50] Yeah. Webinars to learn about stuff that I see like. Yeah. The sort of topics [01:13:55] that. Like doing implant work, which, if they use scanning, don’t just have one [01:14:00] scan like this, have a whole range for the same implant, depending on what you want us to make, because they all [01:14:05] limit you to different things. So things like that. But we talked about full [01:14:10] contour zirconia. Um, if you’re not going if you’re not scanning, why not? [01:14:15] I’m going to I’m going to do a master class on that. Why you should be scanning and using digital. [01:14:20]

Payman Langroudi: Because I think, look, there’s a an area of dental education [01:14:25] that is how does dentistry relate with the lab? You [01:14:30] know, the whole lab. The whole lab part of it.

Michael Joseph: I want to educate more than anything. I don’t I don’t want to [01:14:35] just be. Wow, look at us. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there’s an element of that. We’re saying these are this is what we can [01:14:40] do for you. But I’m. I’m saying to Emma, who does the social media, I’m saying to her, let’s not tell them. [01:14:45] Let’s show them. Yeah, let’s show them our quality. Show them what we can do by example. [01:14:50] So you can tell people as much as you want. But seeing is believing. Like when, when.

Payman Langroudi: When someone does a [01:14:55] master’s in fixed promise. Yeah. A big part of that first six months they do the [01:15:00] lab work and then those guys, they come out with this massive kudos, um, and [01:15:05] knowledge right of, you know, they know both sides of it. Or sometimes you get the [01:15:10] odd technician who becomes a dentist. Yeah. You know, famously Christian coachman and all the. [01:15:15] Yeah. Um, and again, those guys, you know, they.

Michael Joseph: Can be really good.

Payman Langroudi: They tend to be really good. So. [01:15:20] Yeah. Um, Neil Gerrard, there’s a yeah, there’s a few.

Michael Joseph: I [01:15:25] work Neil Gerrard with Brendan. Oh really. His dad was John. So I worked there. But he was in dental school [01:15:30] at the time. His brother Paul. Paul who’s also a brilliant technician. Technician. Yeah. Very good. [01:15:35] Yeah. Yeah. So I know them from back then.

Payman Langroudi: Quite different to each other. Yeah. But so [01:15:40] my point is that, you know, that side of it being a dentist and knowing exactly what happens in [01:15:45] the lab and, and getting the best out of your lab, the whole lab part of being a dentist [01:15:50] needs addressing because most of us haven’t got time to go on a [01:15:55] fixed postmasters. So yeah. So these webinars you’re doing, I think, you [01:16:00] know, it would make a lot of sense for someone and.

Michael Joseph: Lab visits as well. Come and come and see and see [01:16:05] what. Yeah, yeah. I’ve got, um, a calendar just for that. It’s on my Instagram [01:16:10] book, a lab, is it? Come and see us or come? Yeah. People come, people come. Um, I’d like [01:16:15] more people to come. Because if I sit down with you and show you what we’re doing. And then when you’re [01:16:20] doing your work, you’re thinking, oh, you know. You know, I need to do it like that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:16:25]

Michael Joseph: Save time. And things have changed so much. The possibilities [01:16:30] and the ways of doing things are so different now, especially small design and stuff like that. Like [01:16:35] the coaching and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s really if it’s done properly, it really works [01:16:40] out. Well.

Payman Langroudi: Give me a couple of factoids. That stuff [01:16:45] that you wish more dentists knew. That [01:16:50] they don’t know.

Michael Joseph: Most of each made a crown. [01:16:55] Just one once.

Payman Langroudi: In their life.

Michael Joseph: To understand what what [01:17:00] is required. The skill level. I think people are doing cosmetic bonding, especially [01:17:05] if you’re doing it freehand. If they’re trying to do it freehand and not using a wax up and [01:17:10] the zealous, then yeah, they really see how difficult it is. [01:17:15] Yeah. You see some I see some work on Instagram.

Payman Langroudi: I’m thinking no line angles.

Michael Joseph: I [01:17:20] think if I take new veneers that look like that, you punch me in the face. But [01:17:25] I think when you make something yourself, there’s something in it. You think, wow. [01:17:30] Books that I made it. It’s a psychological thing. Yeah. So give me.

Payman Langroudi: Then regarding [01:17:35] that, regarding aesthetic anterior aesthetics. Yeah. What’s a what’s a [01:17:40] kind of a hack? Hack? I don’t like the word hack because it implies cutting corners. But [01:17:45] what’s an aha?

Michael Joseph: Draw the line angles.

Payman Langroudi: With a pencil.

Michael Joseph: With a pencil. Sure. [01:17:50] Draw on. Draw on their teeth. If you if you’re going to be doing this, draw it on. Yeah, yeah. [01:17:55] Get a really good wax up done. Really well defined.

Payman Langroudi: Look, [01:18:00] I find for me with composite, every time you adjust the facial, you [01:18:05] have to readjust the interproximal. Because every time you adjust the face, you push the line angle out. Yeah. [01:18:10] You’re almost delete the line angle if you’re not careful. Yeah. And so continuously [01:18:15] re re it’s really difficult in interior.

Michael Joseph: Work is to get [01:18:20] it to get it to look right, not to look flat. You see loads of bacteria.

Payman Langroudi: Just don’t don’t. [01:18:25]

Michael Joseph: The worst it’s getting it’s getting the angles right. Yeah. But then you get those [01:18:30] late line angles right.

Payman Langroudi: With you guys there’s not not only is there a shade question, [01:18:35] there’s also a shape question in that there’s a shrinkage or not with the ceramic. [01:18:40] Yeah.

Michael Joseph: Yeah. It’s not as much as it used to be but is that right. Yeah. But it’s it’s um, I [01:18:45] mean.

Payman Langroudi: Imagine that if you, if you.

Michael Joseph: If you’ve got to build everything up about 10% bigger.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean if it. [01:18:50]

Michael Joseph: Shrinks down.

Payman Langroudi: Composite if you had to constantly think that, that after everything is going to shrink by [01:18:55] 10%, that would just, just make it even more.

Michael Joseph: That’s the great thing with with full contours. [01:19:00]

Payman Langroudi: You don’t need to know when.

Michael Joseph: We meet it, it’s two and a half times bigger in the green [01:19:05] state, and then it’s centred overnight and it comes down to the right size. Yeah, you’re doing it there. [01:19:10] But yeah, it’s it’s I often think that I often, I often think that [01:19:15] about building up fillings. Well like you see some posterior fillings people post [01:19:20] on Instagram look really nice where they rebuilt the occlusal surface. I’m like, wow, that’s really, really good. [01:19:25] Yeah. So we were.

Payman Langroudi: Talking about that. Yeah. Some it’s something that is becoming making beautiful posters [01:19:30] is a funny thing because there’s sort of this aesthetic side of it because people are taking a lot [01:19:35] more pictures.

Michael Joseph: No one’s going to see it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s like Victorian.

Michael Joseph: Buildings where they’ve got yeah, great [01:19:40] ornate architecture on the other patients.

Payman Langroudi: Will see it if you take a picture. Right. Yeah.

Michael Joseph: So there.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah [01:19:45] there is that. But just knowing.

Michael Joseph: It’s there like that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But also you know it’s simple things like [01:19:50] you know if you’re going to do a filling, make the angles, the cusp angles the same [01:19:55] as they were before. It’s hard to do it.

Michael Joseph: Yeah. It’s really hard.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Michael Joseph: Or a sticky [01:20:00] material that sticks.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Or use articulating paper before you start. [01:20:05] Right. Yeah.

Michael Joseph: See where things are.

Payman Langroudi: Where things are hitting um, simple [01:20:10] tips like that’s.

Michael Joseph: With lab work. Just. You just made me think about that. [01:20:15] Most people want three things. They want to [01:20:20] go on the context to be right and not be high. That’s it. You [01:20:25] keep as a technician, you’re keeping most of your customers.

Payman Langroudi: What do I do if I if I’m coming to fit [01:20:30] a crown and it doesn’t fit because of the contacts being too tight, [01:20:35] what’s gone wrong there?

Michael Joseph: Either. The models worn.

Payman Langroudi: By [01:20:40] actors come in and out so many times.

Michael Joseph: While they’re making.

Payman Langroudi: It. Yeah.

Michael Joseph: On a plaster model. Yeah. [01:20:45] Or they’ve not checked it with floss. I checked everything with floss. It’s got a click right on the solid, [01:20:50] not on the sexual model. On the on the solid model. Well, they’ve just they’re [01:20:55] just not judging it. Right.

Payman Langroudi: So so so what do I do there? [01:21:00] Do I start prepping. Do I start cutting some porcelain. Yeah. Or do I send it back. Send [01:21:05] it back, send it back.

Michael Joseph: If it’s really if it’s sometimes it’s a little bit snug. Yeah. [01:21:10] Rubber wheel. Once you start cutting into things with the burr, with the turbine, [01:21:15] they’re ruined. It’s going to break at some point. You’re introducing.

Payman Langroudi: Introducing.

Michael Joseph: Cracks, cracks [01:21:20] and fractures. Yeah, it should fit.

Payman Langroudi: It should fit.

Michael Joseph: And if it doesn’t [01:21:25] fit, they should have asked you for a new scanner or a new impression.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. See, when I said to you about going from [01:21:30] my super duper technician to the one who wasn’t that strong. No, with the super duper [01:21:35] that it never happened once, that the thing wouldn’t seat. It never happened.

Michael Joseph: Ever. [01:21:40]

Payman Langroudi: He. Yeah.

Michael Joseph: Because he he made it out of the boy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Michael Joseph: Right. So it’s at [01:21:45] least half a millimetre out.

Payman Langroudi: Well I’m talking about the contact points. Oh the contact. Yeah. Yeah. He’s [01:21:50] got them just right.

Michael Joseph: Yeah. Because he knows from experience. Yeah. That’s gonna ruin a site that’s not going to be.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:21:55] changed lab and they made me use this other lab. It was happening 1 in 4 cases that the Crown [01:22:00] wouldn’t see because the contacts were too tight or something. Right. And, you know, at that point, I realised that previous [01:22:05] technician was so good.

Michael Joseph: It’s because it does consistency. You’ve got to be consistent, reliable in [01:22:10] the lab business. You’ve got to be consistent and reliable. Those are the two things.

Payman Langroudi: Like the restaurant business, [01:22:15] the consistent.

Michael Joseph: And stay that way. Um, [01:22:20] yeah. Because why do you keep going back to what’s the success of McDonald’s? [01:22:25] It’s not the quality of the food. Definitely not. It’s the consistency. What you’re going to get no matter where you go in the [01:22:30] world. Yeah, it’s going to taste roughly the same.

Payman Langroudi: What do you reckon if, if, if you had like [01:22:35] a magic wand and we were projecting forward five years, [01:22:40] um, what would be your sort of ideal outcome? What does the future hold for [01:22:45] me? Yeah.

Michael Joseph: Business. Why, sure.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [01:22:50] go both directions if you want.

Michael Joseph: Size of business or.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, like, [01:22:55] what’s the future hold? I mean, I know it’s a weird. I’d like.

Michael Joseph: To. I’d [01:23:00] like to quadruple the size I am in terms of business and [01:23:05] much more automation. Something, something I’m working on right now is a there’s [01:23:10] no decent lab software out there, you know, like you’ve got software of excellence. I don’t even know how many different. And they’re pretty good [01:23:15] because if you think about it, the market for what you can charge a dentist, how many dentists there [01:23:20] are in the world, it’s worth it for a big software operation to really invest in time. The lab software [01:23:25] is crap.

Payman Langroudi: Does it exist?

Michael Joseph: Yeah. It’s rubbish. Like if I told you it’s [01:23:30] it’s not cloud based. And if you want to send an email through it, you’ve got to have [01:23:35] another module. And it’s like I had two choices. Either get a server [01:23:40] which is like white today. To have a server is ridiculous. Should be on the cloud. And if I [01:23:45] wanted to host it on the cloud, they don’t provide that. It was so expensive to host it myself on the cloud I [01:23:50] decided to get a server. Also, it’s so complicated and because the software [01:23:55] was designed when we were doing manual processes, there’s nothing digital. [01:24:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s stuff.

Michael Joseph: That’s been modified, but it’s all pretty rubbish.

Payman Langroudi: And is there a [01:24:05] dominant product?

Michael Joseph: Yeah, there’s a couple. There’s uh, there’s lab track. There’s [01:24:10] another company called evident the American Program, but they’re all rubbish.

Payman Langroudi: And why are we talking [01:24:15] about this? Because you think you could do better. Is that what you’re saying? Yeah. Like that? Yeah. [01:24:20]

Michael Joseph: I’m actually something I’m working on is to provide us a system [01:24:25] where the user interface is easy to use. The dentist, the [01:24:30] apps in three versions, there’s the version we our login as a technician, there’s the admin, [01:24:35] there’s practice admin, and then there’s the dentist on his phone.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good idea.

Michael Joseph: Never asked [01:24:40] for a statement. Never ask where something’s at in the production, where it’s being delivered, [01:24:45] where is it going? It’s all there. The tracking numbers. It’s. You don’t need to call us.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good idea.

Michael Joseph: And [01:24:50] for us, similarly as things come in. It automatically [01:24:55] has intelligent stock. Check to check. We’ve got the right components. If [01:25:00] not, it’ll it’ll send our advance we can get with. This is. It’s something Exocad [01:25:05] the main software designer is looking at. But. And if [01:25:10] you’ve got 500 boxes, work in the lab. How do you manage that? So [01:25:15] at the moment, the workflows with these softwares that manage that are not there [01:25:20] to they’re over complicated. I won’t get into the tech and they’re not fit for purpose. [01:25:25] I mean, we want to have 3D QR codes printed on all the models. And [01:25:30] tattoo the inside of the crown. Typekit QR code on [01:25:35] it.

Payman Langroudi: Is that doable?

Michael Joseph: Yeah, it’s all doable. Well, it’s not a tattoo, but it’s like, yeah, [01:25:40] it’s something like that.

Payman Langroudi: So if you quadruple the size of the business as far as [01:25:45] revenue. Mhm. What’s your estimate on the sort of on the other side. On the people [01:25:50] side would you have to quadruple the number of people or.

Michael Joseph: Yeah, I need. [01:25:55]

Payman Langroudi: Like, how many people? You know.

Michael Joseph: 30 people.

Payman Langroudi: Are you, like eight? Nine people now? Yeah.

Michael Joseph: Yeah. [01:26:00] But I think as technology, as things change in the next few years, technology.

Payman Langroudi: Is going to reduce.

Michael Joseph: The I think AI [01:26:05] is going to is going to really kick in in the next year. But so [01:26:10] simple crowns will be designed by AI. A scan will come in the. It will [01:26:15] be booked in automatically. It’ll go into design. It’ll be designed. They’ll be checking processes [01:26:20] that might need a bit of a touch up. Then it’ll go to be milled and then the [01:26:25] finishing will be relatively. But then won’t that.

Payman Langroudi: Won’t that just be run.

Michael Joseph: Of the mill.

Payman Langroudi: If [01:26:30] it’s like.

Michael Joseph: Saric. Saric market is never really grown that much because there’s only a particular [01:26:35] type of dentist that wants to sit and mess about with that. But you know [01:26:40] market size is stayed the same.

Payman Langroudi: If it’s if it’s that brilliant here that it it does it all itself. [01:26:45]

Michael Joseph: But it needs it needs supervision. The job of the technician will [01:26:50] become understanding that technology and getting it to do what we want it to do, that’s going to be very [01:26:55] complicated.

Payman Langroudi: So I was I was talking to a dentist yesterday.

Michael Joseph: It’s like now with the, [01:27:00] um, with, with like car manufacturing if you look at it like that now. Right. Yeah. Used [01:27:05] to be when they made a Rolls-Royce, it was all handmade. Yeah, yeah. Now it’s all machine made. [01:27:10] But the technicians controlling that machinery and understanding the milling [01:27:15] protocols and strategies and to produce all these parts, they are just as highly as their [01:27:20] skill set. Just doesn’t lie. Underneath a car, screwing something on it. On a computer [01:27:25] screen.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but the, you know, the notion of Ireland five years time, could [01:27:30] it be that there’s no need for a technician at all?

Michael Joseph: No. It’ll always [01:27:35] be.

Payman Langroudi: Needed. Are you.

Michael Joseph: Sure? Because what’s going to happen? It’s like. It’s like. It’s like any. It’s like. It’s like any [01:27:40] industry. What’s going to happen? It’s like, what are you seeing now in the fashion industry? It went from mass production to people [01:27:45] want things handmade. What’s going to happen, I think, is that everything’s going to be digital, and then someone’s [01:27:50] going to go out and launch an old fashioned habit. Handmade. And [01:27:55] that’s going to be a thing. It’s going to go full circle because like now what do people want? Handmade clothing [01:28:00] and everything. Artisan handmade. This is put together right.

Payman Langroudi: Talking [01:28:05] of handmade do you do feldspathic as well. Yeah.

Michael Joseph: Don’t want to. Yeah. [01:28:10] Is it hard. No they’re just they’re just they’re weaker but they have their place. Yeah. More beautiful. Really [01:28:15] really thin veneer. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you can’t do them digitally at all. Is that right? [01:28:20] No.

Michael Joseph: No, it’s just there’s no design. You just you just make it on the die. You [01:28:25] just do it there and then. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So look, this this question of whether or not [01:28:30] a technician is necessary is I’m not attacking technicians. Right. It’s all of our jobs [01:28:35] are in danger. All of us. Everybody. I’d say good. 80% of jobs. Have you seen. [01:28:40]

Michael Joseph: Did you hear about the thing they testing in China now.

Payman Langroudi: For.

Michael Joseph: The. I think it’s [01:28:45] a treatment to. Get your teeth to regrow. Yeah, right. Listen, [01:28:50] in China, let’s see. But no, I just think the roles will change. Roles will change. [01:28:55] It’s like. It’s like the skills will still be different.

Payman Langroudi: I think you’re right. It’ll [01:29:00] be. It’ll be a case of fewer technicians doing more work. Yeah. You know, it’s a [01:29:05] possibility eventually.

Michael Joseph: This is what I think is going to happen, is that the design will pretty [01:29:10] much be all automate all AI automated, but it will need controlling. And then the crowns will just [01:29:15] be printed out in the right colour and they’ll need minimal hand finishing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But [01:29:20] then someone will come up with this unit that will print Chairside and then the design piece. [01:29:25] Okay, you can.

Michael Joseph: Already do it. You can use a cerec.

Payman Langroudi: I know, I know, I know, but there’s only will [01:29:30] be more, more more more like easy to use than it is right now. Because right now it’s still very [01:29:35] clunky and.

Michael Joseph: Always been like that, even even when it’s in the version I see in. It’s not [01:29:40] clunky. It needs attention. Mm. Interesting. We’re the most advanced machine in the [01:29:45] world. Nothing is going to be more advanced than us.

Payman Langroudi: Everything.

Michael Joseph: Everything that’s come, [01:29:50] it comes through us. We’re the most sophisticated machine in the world. It’s [01:29:55] because all the other machines have been made by us.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny time to try and predict the future, you know, [01:30:00] because it’s changing. It’s changing very quickly.

Michael Joseph: Dentistry, landscape, landscape. [01:30:05]

Payman Langroudi: Just generally, you know. Yeah, I the way it is.

Michael Joseph: Like, [01:30:10] what if they. What if they get a vaccine for caries. That’s it. Dentistry is finished. It’s just [01:30:15] hygiene.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, you say that, but I’m not going to lose your teeth. There’s [01:30:20] very few for trauma. There’s much less. There’s much less caries than there used to be. Yeah. Um, especially, [01:30:25] you know, the practices you’re dealing with. Yeah. The private practices. Mhm. Caries is a [01:30:30] lot of it. You’re right though is historical dentistry that’s failed.

Michael Joseph: Um [01:30:35] there’s loads of young people that brush their teeth. Fortunately [01:30:40] for us, fortunately for you.

Payman Langroudi: All [01:30:45] it’s been a brilliant conversation. I’ve really enjoyed that, man. Yeah. Me too. I’m going to end it with our usual [01:30:50] questions. No. First getting the sector. Um.

Michael Joseph: I [01:30:55] just switched it off.

Payman Langroudi: Fancy dinner party. Three guests. [01:31:00] Dead or alive. Who?

Michael Joseph: David Bowie.

Payman Langroudi: David Bowie. Wicked. Good answer. [01:31:05]

Michael Joseph: Sadhguru.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really? Yeah, really. [01:31:10]

Michael Joseph: And my dad are brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Michael Joseph: David [01:31:15] Bowie. You know, I say David Bowie. Why he’s so accurately [01:31:20] predicted the future of music. If you’ve seen any of those videos and [01:31:25] his whole take on general culture. Yeah, how it was going to evolve with.

Payman Langroudi: It all the way [01:31:30] to the end.

Michael Joseph: He sold his music rights years ago. Everyone’s doing that now, you know, you saw it back then. I [01:31:35] need to do this. And Sadhguru to be in the presence of an [01:31:40] enlightened being who’s had a massive effect on my life as he.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So [01:31:45] what?

Michael Joseph: Just stripped away all the bullshit.

Payman Langroudi: So kind of that Buddhism angle. [01:31:50]

Michael Joseph: Yoga, but not as in, like, contortion in the gym.

Payman Langroudi: The mental [01:31:55] yoga. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you died for obvious reasons. Yeah. [01:32:00] Final question. Its deathbed question. On [01:32:05] your deathbed, surrounded by all your loved ones. One [01:32:10] of three pieces of advice you’d leave them.

Michael Joseph: Be kind [01:32:15] to everyone. Uh. Always [01:32:20] do your best with everything you do and everything you do, do it properly. [01:32:25] It’s the best, best of your ability. Assess those. That’s the same thing and [01:32:30] don’t get into dentistry. Um, [01:32:35] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I mean, the last one. [01:32:40]

Michael Joseph: No no no no no. But I think being kind and considerate, [01:32:45] I think my zig Zig Ziglar said that. He said, you know, be what did he say? Be compassionate [01:32:50] with the weak. Be kind to the young. Um, be respectful of the of your [01:32:55] elders, because at one point in your life you will be all of these things. Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Zig Ziglar [01:33:00] was when was it? 60s? 70s? He was 80s. Yeah.

Michael Joseph: Yeah, yeah. [01:33:05] No, he died in the, in the, I think in the, in the late in the early 2000. [01:33:10]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the videos I’ve seen, they look pretty black and white or something old. Yeah. It hasn’t [01:33:15] aged. The information has not aged the same.

Michael Joseph: It’s universal.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. And [01:33:20] it’s interesting. You know the basic principles stay the same, you know. And you can say this about [01:33:25] lab. You can say this about dentistry. Like the things you’ve been saying, right. Don’t cut corners, [01:33:30] do things properly, do the simple things.

Michael Joseph: Right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean.

Michael Joseph: We were discussing this the other day. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Now [01:33:35] I could come and change everything. Yet the basic principles will be the [01:33:40] same. And it’s.

Michael Joseph: But the AI learns from us.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Look, I’m [01:33:45] not as optimistic about that as as you are. I mean, learns from us, but, you know, imagine the [01:33:50] AI has every single input that every single human has ever put in. [01:33:55] It’s a it’s a different learning than. If you heard from me and you. Yeah. [01:34:00]

Michael Joseph: I see what you mean.

Payman Langroudi: You know the pattern recognition part of it. [01:34:05] Like, in a way, I see, you know. Are you on tick tock? Yeah. Tick tick tock. Serves you. [01:34:10] It serves you exactly what you’re after.

Michael Joseph: So that’s the algorithm though.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but let’s just call that let’s [01:34:15] call that the AI. The way. The way it serves you exactly what you’re after. Very. [01:34:20] It learns. It learns who you are very quickly. You know what I’m getting at the moment? What are you getting?

Michael Joseph: I [01:34:25] know why.

Payman Langroudi: I’m getting bent. Cops. Cow, cow [01:34:30] hoof trimming.

Michael Joseph: You know that one? I’m like, I get those [01:34:35] these videos about these guys trimming councils, you know, like the count foot doctor. [01:34:40] Yeah, like a.

Payman Langroudi: Coroner or something. He’s like, you know, it’s.

Michael Joseph: Quite interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Hammering the. [01:34:45]

Michael Joseph: Yeah. No, no, no, no trimming like toenail cutter. I [01:34:50] get bent.

Payman Langroudi: Cops. I get a lot of bent cops.

Michael Joseph: Cops. I think I know what [01:34:55] you want. Yeah, I don’t I don’t look at TikTok that much. But it’s very easy. [01:35:00] I find, you know, it can fall into it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Michael Joseph: I can be sitting on the sofa. It’s about 10:00. I look around, it’s 1 [01:35:05] a.m. and I’ve been.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. My latest hack on that is on the, uh, walking machine. Running [01:35:10] machine? Watch TikTok. Yeah.

Michael Joseph: Time passes.

Payman Langroudi: Quicker. Yeah. Much quicker. Much. Seriously, man. [01:35:15] 30 minutes on on that thing. Yeah. Before you for me, you just feel like six hours. No, [01:35:20] no, no.

Michael Joseph: Just when I used to run, I never I never listened to music. [01:35:25]

Payman Langroudi: What would you do? Because you suddenly started becoming very fit, right? So when you started running, what what [01:35:30] was the sort of did you meditate? No, no. But how did you what was going through [01:35:35] your head?

Michael Joseph: I’m thinking about what? Work. Thinking? No. Thinking about nothing. If you don’t, if [01:35:40] you just concentrate on what you’re doing, you get into the state of flow. Sometimes I could [01:35:45] go for an 18 mile run and feel like half an hour. Yeah, because it’s gone. [01:35:50] Especially. I’m doing a route. I know where there’s no cars or anything. I’ve got to think about it. I have to think about [01:35:55] it. You get to that flow state and that’s to do with separation. That’s all. That’s [01:36:00] all to do with yoga. Yeah, it’s very.

Payman Langroudi: Much the opposite of my.

Michael Joseph: Dancers. Say they experience flow. Yeah yeah yeah [01:36:05] yeah. Any coffee? Coffee pickers. Technicians technically [01:36:10] even know there’s a phone ringing, so someone has to go.

Payman Langroudi: We used to have it. We have. We used to [01:36:15] have a technician here. But when you walk into the room, you could see it in her face [01:36:20] that whether or not you could interrupt what she was doing. Because if you [01:36:25] could somehow you could tell that if you interrupt her now, there’s going to be a situation [01:36:30] because she was so in it, you know. Yeah. You can get.

Michael Joseph: Into what you’re doing. Yeah. For sure. [01:36:35] It’s a flow state. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How would you like to be remembered?

Michael Joseph: The [01:36:40] data.

Payman Langroudi: I could do.

Michael Joseph: So. As [01:36:45] a coin person.

Payman Langroudi: Louis. I mean, it’s been a [01:36:50] massive pleasure to have you. Thank you. Likewise.

Michael Joseph: Thank you for having me on.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks for coming in. And, [01:36:55] uh, you know, Prav told me that, uh, you’re working with Prav now. Yeah. Prav [01:37:00] told me that you, of all of his clients, the one who quickest does [01:37:05] what he says. You know what?

Michael Joseph: I called him up. I said to him, I realised what you’re doing to me, it’s like the Karate Kid. [01:37:10] Wax on, wax off. Go and make lead magnets. Do CRM, do this, do that. [01:37:15] I’ve done it all. And then suddenly it’s all coming together. Yeah, but.

Payman Langroudi: That, you know, that says a lot, [01:37:20] man. It says a lot. Oh that’s great. But it says a lot about the fact that you’re sort of, you know, you’re [01:37:25] willing to get out of your comfort zone to do this. Because I remember having the conversation with you about social media before. [01:37:30] Yeah. And you saying, oh, it’s not my bag and it’s got to be. And two years later, it [01:37:35] perhaps telling me you’re his number one executor. Executor on social [01:37:40] media. So you know. Yeah. Well done man. Thank you. Thanks a lot for coming in.

Michael Joseph: Yeah a pleasure. Thanks [01:37:45] for having me.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, [01:37:50] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:37:55] Your hosts. Payman Langroudi [01:38:00] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. [01:38:05] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and [01:38:10] pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to [01:38:15] say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about [01:38:20] subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get [01:38:25] some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating. [01:38:30]

Rhona/Talitha: Found a loneliness is a really big thing. If you’re a sole founder, it’s much lonelier [00:00:05] than people having co-founders. And there’s some people that fail at their first Start-Up, and it’s only them they actually [00:00:10] prefer. They’re like quite traumatised at the loneliness aspect of it on every level. You know, we’ve.

Payman Langroudi: All [00:00:15] started a business. Yeah. And it’s quite interesting that if you tell friends and family, [00:00:20] I’ve got this idea yours was a hair salon, was it? Yeah.

Rhona/Talitha: Well it was. Yeah. [00:00:25] Exactly. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or you were going to do what you did. I remember you pitching it at me, telling me [00:00:30] this is what you’re going to do. Yeah, a lot of people will tell you it’s a bad idea.

Rhona/Talitha: Honestly, my I [00:00:35] will never forget my auntie. I love her dearly, but she looked at me in pity, like she looked at me like she was going [00:00:40] to burst into tears. And she was like, you’re leaving this corporate role. You know you’re doing. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And some people will live their own fear [00:00:45] out in you.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s really interesting that if loads of people tell [00:00:50] you it’s a good idea, it’s not a good idea. So true. Yeah. Because the reason is if it’s such [00:00:55] an obviously good idea, then there’ll be many competitors that be loads of people doing [00:01:00] it. If everyone’s telling you it’s not a good idea, it may not be, but [00:01:05] it may be. Yeah. And it’s that, it’s that that when you say does [00:01:10] someone have entrepreneurial spirit in them, it’s that question when people are telling you it’s not going to work, [00:01:15] and yet you still have this voice in your head, go.

[VOICE]: This [00:01:25] is mind movers. Moving [00:01:30] the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. [00:01:35] Your hosts Rhona Eskander and Payman [00:01:40] Langroudi.

Rhona/Talitha: Welcome to another episode of Mind Movers, [00:01:45] the mental health podcast in dentistry, where today we’re speaking with Talitha mackey, the creator [00:01:50] force and successful business owner of Fox and Vamp. I had the pleasure [00:01:55] of meeting Talitha on another podcast and was blown away by her story and journey. [00:02:00] She is an incredible woman who has been balancing motherhood, [00:02:05] mental health and offers valuable insights and inspiration. So join us as we delve [00:02:10] into her story. Welcome to Leesa. Thank you. So lively, so [00:02:15] weird to hear. Talitha mackey. I mean, that is my name. It’s my married name, but every [00:02:20] day I never use it. Oh my god. But it’s nice to hear my husband [00:02:25] will be delighted. What’s the, um. The price like? I managed to leave. The price is everything [00:02:30] on everything on print. Even when I send it off, I’m always leave the price. And he’s like, why? But you know what? We [00:02:35] had this whole debate. We’re not going to get into this debate now. But I did a podcast with my really good friend Shivani, and [00:02:40] we did the whole podcast about would you change your surname? Yeah. And I think it was it was a really [00:02:45] controversial conversation and obviously all the like Andrew Tate lovers came for us and were like, these women are going [00:02:50] to be single forever and like, no one’s going to marry them. But I think there was something about the identity [00:02:55] of your maiden name with your business because I’m Doctor Iskander, my dad’s Doctor Iskander, because he’s [00:03:00] a doctor.

Rhona/Talitha: Um, and I am, I feel like Doctor Iskander. It’s just [00:03:05] like it just goes to, you know, and I quite enjoy that. So, like, Talitha Price might [00:03:10] be like. It just feels. It feels I can’t I feel my husband’s going to listen to this. It [00:03:15] feels better. But equally my children’s surnames are murky. Yeah. So I love machi. Machi is a very cool [00:03:20] okay smell of it. This is the first bit though. So Talitha, I want to ask [00:03:25] you about the creation of Fox and Vamp. Okay. So we, you know, it’s [00:03:30] always so inspiring to have a business woman here. And I want you to tell us a little bit about Fox [00:03:35] and what it is and how it started. Yeah. So I have always been [00:03:40] really passionate about her beauty makeup. And since [00:03:45] a very young age, I basically dropped out of college before I was thrown [00:03:50] out of college and had to go, had to go and get a job. And I remember my mum [00:03:55] being like, if you don’t get a job in one week, she’s like, you are going back to college. [00:04:00] It was the end of the summer. At this point. She was like, you are going back to college in September and you’re going to be down a year at that point. [00:04:05]

Rhona/Talitha: And I was like, oh my God. Frantically trying to find a job, I phoned up every single [00:04:10] salon, and at that point I was too old to be taken on because it’s government funded. [00:04:15] So you have to be of a certain age, um, to be taken on. I was already 17. You have [00:04:20] to be like 16 when you’re doing it. Anyway, I begged the salon. They asked me what my GCSEs were. [00:04:25] I actually got really good GCSEs. I just wasn’t focussed in college. It wasn’t what I wanted to do anyway. [00:04:30] They took a risk on me, so I started doing hairdressing. How old were you then? I was [00:04:35] 17. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I had to complete the course in two years where usually I take three and [00:04:40] a half to four, I disappear. So they had to fast track me through the course. Um, so really [00:04:45] enjoyed it. But I lived in a really small town and just had really itchy feet. [00:04:50] Um, so I actually ended I didn’t speak about this on the other podcast, [00:04:55] but I ended up working for Virgin Atlantic. Oh, wow. Yeah. Which was amazing. [00:05:00] And I did that again. I was actually one of the youngest to ever fly with Virgin Atlantic. Oh my [00:05:05] God, what is that of Richard Branson saying? I was one of the youngest people too. Wow. Um, [00:05:10] were you.

Payman Langroudi: An air stewardess? Yeah. What’s it like?

Rhona/Talitha: Wow, that’s so young. It’s [00:05:15] hard work. Yeah, I was young at the time. It was amazing. But I was literally driving from [00:05:20] Southport, where I’m from, which is up north.

Payman Langroudi: Tiny town. Liverpool.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah, past Liverpool. [00:05:25] And I was driving to Heathrow or Gatwick to fly, so [00:05:30] I would spend all my money driving just to do the flight to go away for a few days, [00:05:35] which was amazing. And so it just really wasn’t kind of sustainable. When I was on board, [00:05:40] though, I kind of fell in love with like, um, selling makeup products. And this person [00:05:45] who at the time, I didn’t know who it was, she handed me a card and she turned out to be one of [00:05:50] the head people in Estee Lauder. She was like a sales manager and like the highest sales manager in Estee Lauder. [00:05:55] And she’s like, if you ever want a job, let me know. So I ended up getting in touch with her, moved to London. [00:06:00] And this is, by the way, I didn’t just get in touch with her. This was like maybe a year later, moved [00:06:05] to London. Like I said, I’d always loved makeup beauty, I loved hair, but I [00:06:10] didn’t want to go back into it. At that point, I fell into working in makeup, started off in a makeup counter [00:06:15] a year and a half later, was an area manager. Yeah. Worked for LVMH, [00:06:20] worked for Estee Lauder Group, ran Selfridges, Beauty Hall and Oxford [00:06:25] Street. The whole two hall. Yeah, a 250 staff under me. Wow. How old [00:06:30] were you then? 21. 22. She’s young. Yeah, [00:06:35] amazing. I feel like a fast border. I feel like I’m speaking. But while I was [00:06:40] doing this. I’d had like a really unfortunate hair experience [00:06:45] and I found myself needing hair extensions. And listen, I’m a northern girl. Having hair extensions [00:06:50] is very normal.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah, I’m always pretty much had hair extensions. But anyway, my hair had been really compromised, [00:06:55] so I just couldn’t find anywhere good in London to get [00:07:00] them. And I was travelling back up north to Liverpool to get them. I was literally hopping on a flight to Marbella [00:07:05] to get my hair done. When my mum was leaving to go to the person she was using [00:07:10] who was amazing, and I was like, oh my God. I mean, I literally did this for a year and I was like, [00:07:15] why isn’t there somewhere in London where you can go with a really high quality hair extensions [00:07:20] that’s affordable? Of course, there are places, there’s a handful of places, but it was a bit unattainable [00:07:25] to me at the time because it was too expensive, or you’d have to compromise on quality. [00:07:30] And I was like, there’s a real gap in the market here. This should be good hair available [00:07:35] at a better price. So really, that’s kind of how the business [00:07:40] was formed. I trained on my days off to do hair extensions. Obviously, somewhere back in my [00:07:45] mind I did have the skill set technically being a hairdresser, so it’s not like you can just pick [00:07:50] it up where you left off. Obviously I had to train and retrain and really that’s how the brand was [00:07:55] started and that’s how that’s how it began. I left my corporate role. [00:08:00] I started doing it out of my flat. My husband, who now my husband, who was my boyfriend at the [00:08:05] time, said to me, if it doesn’t work out, you’ll have to get a job. I’ll give you three months. And [00:08:10] I was like, yeah, fine, I’ll get a job.

Rhona/Talitha: I’m a hustler. I’ll get a job. That’s fine. They did work out. So we [00:08:15] are. So I think, you know, one of the fascinating things is, is that people [00:08:20] I mean, actually I’m going to put it out there to both of you. Do you think that some people are [00:08:25] just born with entrepreneurial spirit and some people aren’t? Or do you think it’s something [00:08:30] that you can get into, as it were? You know, because what I’m hearing, you know, Talitha was kicked out [00:08:35] of school, clearly conventional school didn’t, you know, left school was almost kicked out. She didn’t [00:08:40] want to pursue that role, but still became incredibly successful and had that [00:08:45] drive from a young age. Do you think entrepreneurial spirit is something that you’re born with, or do [00:08:50] you think that you do? Yeah, I honestly have always my mum was like, I remember [00:08:55] I had a fascination with like designer handbags when I was young and my mum was like, well, [00:09:00] you know, they’re so expensive. And I was like, well, I’ll get a job. Yeah, I was 14 or 15 at the time. I had [00:09:05] three jobs. At 15, I would literally work in a designer clothes shop for a day. I would go to work [00:09:10] in a restaurant at midnight, and then I would go glass collect in a nightclub. I was 15 [00:09:15] and I bought my handbag. After two months, I saved up myself. So it’s just in me. Yeah, I am not [00:09:20] afraid of hard work anywhere. I’ll do any of the work. I wouldn’t ask anybody to do anything that I [00:09:25] would.

Payman Langroudi: Put the question to answer. The question is interesting, insomuch as like you were very successful at what you were [00:09:30] doing, you know, you were running the floor, 250 people working. You’re obviously very [00:09:35] good at sales. It’s clear, but entrepreneurial. You’re. Yeah, that’s true. [00:09:40] There’s an element of risk. Yeah. That some people really shy away from.

Rhona/Talitha: Correct. [00:09:45] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And there’s a loneliness to it as well that some people can’t handle and some [00:09:50] people are fine with. Yeah. There’s definitely a loneliness to it.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah. There is, there is, there is like [00:09:55] these communities now because we went to this parlour event a few weeks ago. Yeah. And at this [00:10:00] parlour event there were loads of like start up brands. And they said that like founder loneliness is like [00:10:05] a really big thing. Like if you’re a sole founder, it’s much lonelier than people having co-founders. [00:10:10] And there’s some people that fail at their first Start-Up and it’s only them they actually prefer. They’re like quite traumatised [00:10:15] at the loneliness aspect of it on every level.

Payman Langroudi: You know, we’ve all started a business. Yeah. [00:10:20] And it’s quite interesting that if you tell friends and family, I’ve got this idea yours [00:10:25] was a hair salon, was it? Yeah.

Rhona/Talitha: Well, yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or [00:10:30] you were going to do what you did. I remember you pitching it at me, telling me this is what you’re going to do. Yeah, [00:10:35] a lot of people will tell you it’s a bad idea.

Rhona/Talitha: Honestly, I will never forget my auntie. [00:10:40] I love her dearly. But she looked at me in pity, like she looked at me like she was going to burst into tears. And she was like, [00:10:45] you’re leaving this corporate role. You know you’re doing. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And some people will live their own fear out in you.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah. [00:10:50]

Payman Langroudi: But it’s really interesting that if loads of people tell you it’s a good idea, [00:10:55] it’s not a good idea. So true. Yeah. Because the reason is if it’s such an obviously good idea, [00:11:00] then there’ll be many competitors to be loads of people doing it. If [00:11:05] everyone’s telling you it’s not a good idea, it may not be, but it may [00:11:10] be. Yeah. And it’s that, it’s that that when you say does someone have entrepreneurial spirit [00:11:15] in them is that question people are telling you it’s not going to work, and yet you still have [00:11:20] this voice in your head, go.

Rhona/Talitha: But I want to ask you, Talitha was your background. Did you grow up in a privileged background or [00:11:25] a like normal background, a working class background? What was your background working class? [00:11:30] I would say I did go to private school, but my mum like struggled to put us through private school. My dad [00:11:35] wasn’t very present, so yeah, I was. Did that drive you? I think [00:11:40] so I’ve done some. Therapy. And actually I was literally just thinking that. And I think that I’ve [00:11:45] done in a child work and all sorts. And I think that actually she came to the conclusion of [00:11:50] you are the way you are, and you’re so determined because no one else was going to look after it was up [00:11:55] to you. You felt very determined to be able to look after your mum, and [00:12:00] I would have never come to that conclusion on my own. It’s just how I am. Yeah, I’m happy [00:12:05] to work and I’m happy, but potentially that is because, [00:12:10] I mean, look, obviously Payman made some really good points because we talk about like being a nepo baby and [00:12:15] all that sort of thing. So sometimes when you come from a very privileged or very rich background, it’s sometimes even harder [00:12:20] to prove yourself because people just assume you are where you are because of who your parents are or like, and [00:12:25] sometimes that’s more difficult. I think definitely when I think about my own childhood, when we [00:12:30] first came back to the UK after my dad had left, like we did not have any money, and I remember my dad [00:12:35] taking us to Asda and I wasn’t allowed to buy like normal coke.

Rhona/Talitha: We had to buy Asda’s like [00:12:40] best or whatever. Yeah, and I remember my parents like your mum, she, [00:12:45] my mum was like, we have to put them in private school because the schools were so rough and education was always like the highest [00:12:50] pillar in life. So like again, my mum was like working two jobs. My dad was paid really [00:12:55] badly on the NHS at that time, and every single penny went to school that we didn’t take holidays, [00:13:00] we didn’t go out for meals, it just went on schools and then going to the school because we couldn’t [00:13:05] afford school uniform and had to buy it from the charity. I was bullied because mine had holes or whatever or whatever. [00:13:10] Yeah, and then I remember the children’s. I was always popular because I was always a sociable person, but the children’s [00:13:15] parents didn’t want their kids to hang out with me because my parents were never present. So they [00:13:20] thought I’d be a bad influence because they never picked me up or would never come to any of these clubs, and we couldn’t afford it. But [00:13:25] it was that as young as like six years old, that was like, I’m going to prove all these parents wrong, [00:13:30] like on a subconscious level, because I was so protective of the way that they thought so negatively of my [00:13:35] parents.

Rhona/Talitha: And I recognised the power of having like financial freedom was. So [00:13:40] I think that drove me to a certain extent. That’s amazing to think what you’ve achieved now. [00:13:45] Well, no thank you. But but I, I honestly I think what you’ve achieved is amazing. And back [00:13:50] to Paiman’s point though, you say like if someone says the ID is really good, [00:13:55] then it’s almost like it should deter you. But I’m going to put something out there. Here is [00:14:00] something that’s been around for a really long time, and how businesses haven’t thrived in [00:14:05] the way that it’s thrived with you. So why do you think, like, what do you think is [00:14:10] has made Fox and the success and tell us about like what happened during the pandemic as well? Because I know [00:14:15] that’s when you had the launch. Yeah. Of course. So we actually opened the Chelsea Salon in um, [00:14:20] uh, 20 19th December. Obviously we were shut in March of [00:14:25] 2020. So that was a really obviously difficult time. I’d [00:14:30] just opened the business up for it to just be closed, and obviously it was such a risk at the time. And I remember [00:14:35] like when I was given the rent at the time, like working it out per client, how many clients I’d have [00:14:40] to do by yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Would you have a co-founder?

Rhona/Talitha: No, just by myself. So I took this on by [00:14:45] myself and I’d taken only one employee on. At that point.

Payman Langroudi: I saved up loads of money [00:14:50] and put it all in. Yeah, actually. Fund it.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah. It’s just so lucky. I know a detour [00:14:55] now, but it is actually an interesting story. And actually I love this story because, um, it just shows [00:15:00] about being a good person. So I had when I was renting a space in Wandsworth Town, I had a client, [00:15:05] super nice client. However, when you’re just starting off and [00:15:10] you have appointments, you’ll know yourself and someone lets you down. It’s quite a big deal. Huge deal. Huge. You [00:15:15] take it so personal because that that appointment is everything to you. Yeah. And she had actually done it [00:15:20] to me a few times maybe like 2 or 3. So obviously you feel really defeated. [00:15:25] Anyway, she’d messaged me she wanted to come in. I was like, I’m just gonna of course I’m gonna, you know, [00:15:30] welcome her in. And I was just super, super nice to her as I would always be. And we were [00:15:35] just chatting. But I was a bit deflated in this appointment and she said, you just don’t see me like yourself. I said, well, I’ve started [00:15:40] looking for premises so expensive. I was like, I can’t believe it. Like, I just feel like [00:15:45] I’m never going to be able to get a salon. Like, how on earth do people take it on? They need X, Y and Z. And [00:15:50] anyway, she was quite and she was like, this is really strange, but my next [00:15:55] door neighbour has a salon in a house and the people are moving out to Notting Hill because they’ve expanded. She [00:16:00] was like, she’s actually changing it back into part of the house, but do you want me to speak to her? And I was like, [00:16:05] yes, we show me pictures, show me the images.

Rhona/Talitha: It’s amazing. So I met with her that [00:16:10] night, signed for it the next day. Amazing. Yeah. So there was no like big and obviously it [00:16:15] because it’s technically residential. It was done in a very different way. And I [00:16:20] think actually now, like I would never want a salon that was different to what the salon is now [00:16:25] because it’s within a townhouse. It’s, it’s it’s stunning. It makes it really special in [00:16:30] the same place, still in the same place. It’s on Sydney Street and Chelsea. So just around the corner from yourself. It’s [00:16:35] a beautiful space. And I think coming back to your original question of what [00:16:40] what makes it. You know what makes it? I don’t want to say thrive, but what makes it different [00:16:45] is really the experience. I’ve obviously, I’m I worked really hard building relationships [00:16:50] with clients and anybody that I brought into the business. I’ve waited, [00:16:55] even if it’s meant that I’ve taken more on myself or it’s been super stressful. I’ll only [00:17:00] bring on people who really align with my values just so that we can keep the business [00:17:05] at a certain level. We try to keep ahead of the curve [00:17:10] in terms of any different methods. I’m not like set in my ways that it has to be done [00:17:15] this way. I’ll very much pivot exactly what we were mentioning before the podcast, before I’ll pivot [00:17:20] when needed.

Rhona/Talitha: And I just think it’s about really being honest, having integrity. [00:17:25] We know we’ve got a we’re lucky that we [00:17:30] same as you, you know, we work with a lot of influencers, but we don’t hunt down the influencers. We never, ever [00:17:35] get in touch with them. Yes, exactly. These are people coming to us because they want the service. And, you know, that’s [00:17:40] because we’re providing a good service, which I think, again, says a lot. Yeah. Um, [00:17:45] what? So during lockdown then what happened? We [00:17:50] obviously could not open. I mean, like, did you panic? Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Absolutely. [00:17:55] Panicked. Um, panicked, was worried about money, [00:18:00] had to continue to pay the rent because I’d just taken it on. I was so scared of losing it. [00:18:05] So I had to pay the rent fully for around nine months, I think. [00:18:10] And then I was just like, I just can’t do this. And then we negotiated to bring it down to half. I didn’t [00:18:15] have any help, any government help because it was classed as residential. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So [00:18:20] that was really hard. Did you have lost stars by that point? No. So I didn’t have too many [00:18:25] staff. And the staff that I did have were self-employed. So that was probably better. But then equally you worry that you’re not going [00:18:30] to have those staff back. You feel guilty because you’re not able to look after them even though you want to. I wasn’t in a position [00:18:35] where I could, so yeah, there was a lot of panic. There was a lot of obviously crappy [00:18:40] days, like, of course, for everyone.

Rhona/Talitha: And the only thing I would [00:18:45] say, though, looking back on Covid is my business really [00:18:50] thrived after Covid. Yeah. How long were you guys allowed open for? Because that’s same with dentists. Like three [00:18:55] months after the announcement. Yeah, we were allowed to go back, so we were [00:19:00] allowed to go back much earlier. Yes. I also had just bought the clinic and I suddenly had all this staff and [00:19:05] everything. Yeah, I switched to doing like online consults and I pivoted and I was just quite, [00:19:10] you know, I really did my best to try and stay with us. I completely forgot that [00:19:15] actually. Yeah, yeah. So I would literally have to put my face on, like, obviously like in my pyjamas and exactly the same. [00:19:20] Yeah. I’d be doing online consultations, getting everyone booked up. We had waitlist upon waitlist. Same. Yeah. [00:19:25] We would go in at six in the morning. We wouldn’t leave till 11 at night like we were just round the clock. And it was [00:19:30] actually such a weird, great momentum. Everyone was just so happy to see us, so happy [00:19:35] to be there throwing money at you. Let’s be honest, because people had it. They had money in their pocket. Money? [00:19:40] Yeah, they were so happy to spend it. So I always think, I don’t know if my [00:19:45] business would be the same actually, because actually, you know, I try to look out the positive from it. So off [00:19:50] the back of it we did. Well, you know.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a massive similarity between dentistry [00:19:55] and hairdressing.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah that’s massive. But also a lot of our dentists are self-employed. [00:20:00]

Payman Langroudi: Well let’s let’s start with dentists I know hairdressers the very early days.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah. [00:20:05]

Payman Langroudi: The very before university started teaching dentistry, [00:20:10] it was just like.

Rhona/Talitha: What.

Payman Langroudi: Was the hairdressers that were doing the tea.

Rhona/Talitha: No [00:20:15] way.

Payman Langroudi: 100 years ago. Right.

Rhona/Talitha: I heard more than a hundred years ago and 50. My [00:20:20] goodness, clothes on. Electricity. We have the same skill set. But no. But then I [00:20:25] see.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a very similar in that if someone doesn’t turn up, you’ve lost money.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah, [00:20:30] it’s client facing, you’ve got intimate.

Payman Langroudi: Owner and you’ve got, we call them associates, but you would call them. [00:20:35]

Rhona/Talitha: Clients.

Payman Langroudi: Well no. The other.

Rhona/Talitha: Oh sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, hairdressers who work.

Rhona/Talitha: For [00:20:40] you, you know, of course, the stylist.

Payman Langroudi: The stylist, they’re on a percentage of what they. Yeah, it’s very similar.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah. [00:20:45] What it is. Yeah. What I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Interested in is, as a new business.

Rhona/Talitha: Medieval Europe. [00:20:50] I’m just putting out there medieval Europe, 1745. This is not 100 years [00:20:55] ago.

Payman Langroudi: 150.

Rhona/Talitha: 250. But [00:21:00] but.

Payman Langroudi: But then. But then as a new business. Yes. And let’s face it, Sydney Street. Yes. [00:21:05] That’s not a cheap place to rent, right where you’ve got. I know you had a few [00:21:10] clients from, from your Wandsworth days, but where you’ve got essentially empty seats. What [00:21:15] did you do marketing wise to get patients in, get patients to get [00:21:20] clients in.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah. No. Well but you know I yeah it’s [00:21:25] interesting. Listen there’s always going to be ups and downs. Sometimes we’re super busy. Sometimes obviously it’s quieter. I [00:21:30] don’t really sweat the quiet times now because I understand the business enough to know that [00:21:35] we will go through the motions. At the time, of course, I sweated it more. What I would do [00:21:40] is we’re very present. On social media. I think that it’s really easy [00:21:45] to show the results that instant. So it’s very easy to show visual, very [00:21:50] visual. So I think having our clients are a really good asset and they’re obviously willing [00:21:55] to be on the Instagram. We’ve always utilised that really well. We do quite a lot of Q and A’s that [00:22:00] we get so many consultations on the back of, and honestly, [00:22:05] word of mouth. I’ve never really worked with marketing at all or PR [00:22:10] and yeah, I’ve just literally relied on word of mouth, [00:22:15] relied on doing a good job. And of course, were you very strong on.

Payman Langroudi: Social media before you [00:22:20] even started?

Rhona/Talitha: No. Literally absolutely shocking. And I also know did you start when what [00:22:25] year? 2008, 2019. So yeah. So the beginning of so the most.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:22:30] didn’t have thousands or hundreds of thousands of followers.

Rhona/Talitha: No. Still don’t sadly. But you [00:22:35] can a pretty decent following. Yeah. No we have we have we have a nice following and we have an engaged following as well. [00:22:40] But, um, you know, I’ve worked with different influencers. I mentioned on the other podcast that, um, Sophie [00:22:45] Milner’s one. Sophie Milner is one of them. Laura Will’s fashion book blog. I speak about her on every podcast [00:22:50] because she really was a pivotal mindset. She’s my Melissa’s wardrobe. Yeah. Go on. Yeah [00:22:55] she is. She was a pivotal moment within the business. She is somebody that [00:23:00] doesn’t look like your typical extension client. And I think there’s obviously, [00:23:05] you know, the people’s thoughts behind extensions aren’t necessarily true. [00:23:10] Like maybe mine doesn’t look like extensions, but it is it’s full head of extensions, you know, and that’s maybe not where their head goes. [00:23:15] And in Laura Wales is a very Chelsea mum, very natural looking [00:23:20] and her style is incredible. And I think [00:23:25] she really drove the women in, in the area into the salon. And I [00:23:30] always say to her, I wouldn’t have been. I actually always say I don’t think I’d have been able to keep the salon if it wasn’t for you initially. [00:23:35] And but, you know, she’s still a client today, and I think that says so much that she’s been with me from [00:23:40] the beginning and she’s like, I can never she actually always says, I can never take my hair out.

Rhona/Talitha: It’s my superpower. [00:23:45] Yeah. And I’m like, that’s amazing. The fact that she’s still coming speaks volumes. You know, we don’t [00:23:50] always post it. We don’t. You know, it’s not the same. It’s the same age. Melissa. She’s a paying client now. Like I [00:23:55] would never take it. But she insists, you know. And like she’s just loves her hair. And yeah, I [00:24:00] think that your hair is like. I mean, so your hair. Yeah. [00:24:05] Like, I know you can’t relate. So that’s like my hair. You know, my [00:24:10] hair is something like, I’m lucky because I’ve always had, you know, Middle Eastern [00:24:15] hair essentially. But last year I was going through quite a lot, and I lost a lot of hair. And then [00:24:20] I went to a trichologist and a doctor and they basically were like, look, you’ve got signs of androgenic [00:24:25] alopecia, um, because of all the stress. And I just felt like I wasn’t myself. So people [00:24:30] underestimate and hair is one of those things that it does reflect your state of mind. Yeah, 100%. [00:24:35] So I think, you know, that’s really, really important. Um, influencer marketing is always something [00:24:40] that I talk about and the power of that, and if you’ve got the right influencers and I think the formula that people get wrong, I see [00:24:45] it in dentistry as well, is that people bombard a load of influencers and they expect [00:24:50] stuff, or they start putting these KPIs on them, and it doesn’t work like that because they’re also human beings. [00:24:55]

Rhona/Talitha: And you’ve got to understand that when they want to post something, they it is their job [00:25:00] and they want to be like credible and authentic, because that’s the whole reason the audience aren’t going to believe [00:25:05] you if you’re paying to promote a service essentially 100%. And listen, it [00:25:10] doesn’t, I think you’ll agree it doesn’t really have the same hit these days. Yeah. It doesn’t. You know, [00:25:15] it’s great if you get a great influencer that really makes a difference. But I don’t [00:25:20] see it impacting the business. Maybe because we’ve grown or maybe because it just people [00:25:25] just don’t buy into it as much. But I think working with really well aligned [00:25:30] influencers is the right thing to do. Somebody asked me the other day, would you stop working with them? [00:25:35] And I was like, no, I think it’s actually more damaging for them to go somewhere else, you know, get their hair done, [00:25:40] happy to have them, you know, the right people in the salon. But like I say, we don’t really reach out there. [00:25:45] Of course, there’s like people on my wish list. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Manifest. [00:25:50] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So are you then turned it from a service business to a product [00:25:55] business.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: That was a big step, right?

Rhona/Talitha: It was a big step. Yeah. It [00:26:00] still.

Payman Langroudi: Made you do that.

Rhona/Talitha: Because. But also for those that don’t know. So yeah. Telethon [00:26:05] now sells. Yeah. Go through go through that. So we have a product [00:26:10] line now. So we sell the hair. So we sell it in clippings. We sell it in taping [00:26:15] method and we sell it in the keratin bonds. I’m also wholesaling the methods as well so we can [00:26:20] wholesale into other salons. We’re actually starting in Dubai at the moment. Um, [00:26:25] and the reason it was created is purely because every supplier [00:26:30] I was working with just wasn’t quite right. So I [00:26:35] started looking for the hair literally in 2019. I have only just got the hair, by the way, to [00:26:40] the point. Where it’s ready to wholesale. It’s taken years. It’s taken thousands of pounds. [00:26:45] It’s taken lots of breakdowns, loads of tears, loads of giving up. Don’t want to do it. Absolutely [00:26:50] hate it. To get to this point now. And I still feel like we’ve got a long way to go. You know [00:26:55] a lot. But the product side I’m really excited about because obviously that’s how you can start to scale your business. [00:27:00] And again, I’m just always it was never going to be I will never stand still. [00:27:05] I just think that’s the way I am. It’s probably my best quality in business, my [00:27:10] worst quality in home life, because nothing is ever quite enough. [00:27:15] Like I’m always looking for the next thing. But yeah, that’s that’s basically it’s here [00:27:20] that you sell. So sorry. Yes, it’s fair that we sell. We have hairbrushes as well. We have scrunchies, the accessories side, [00:27:25] and we are launching three products next year as well.

Rhona/Talitha: Why did you decide [00:27:30] to transition into that space? What motivated you to transition just because [00:27:35] she never made sense. Yeah. And also it made sense I couldn’t have [00:27:40] I couldn’t get it off a supplier. So I had to create it ourselves. So we created the different hair lines ourselves. [00:27:45] Like the hair I know, I know, it’s I’m talking about hair extensions. Not everybody gets it, but [00:27:50] in every shade of hair extensions it’s like six different colours going through. That’s what makes it look [00:27:55] super natural. Whereas like if it’s not as dimensional, it doesn’t look as natural. And obviously [00:28:00] our whole thing is that it looks really, really natural in your hair. And also, I actually had a fall out with one [00:28:05] of the suppliers when I spoke about this, and she actually I was, you know, we were spending a lot [00:28:10] of money with her, and she dropped me due to somebody coming to work for me that used to work for [00:28:15] her, and that was probably the best thing that happened. I feel like it was the universe. [00:28:20] Obviously at the time it left me in a really difficult, yeah, difficult situation [00:28:25] because our main hair supplier cut us off. Um, but it really forced [00:28:30] me into taking the leap that I needed into putting the money down. [00:28:35] It’s expensive to create your own hair line, right? You can’t just order hair by [00:28:40] the pack. You have to order in the kilogram like kilograms of hair.

Payman Langroudi: And are you selling direct to [00:28:45] consumers as well as to salons?

Rhona/Talitha: So we sell online as well. So that book just for [00:28:50] clippings and tapes. So these are things that they can take to the hairdresser or do themselves at home. [00:28:55] Because I’m aware that not everyone can get to Chelsea. Right. Not everyone can come to Chelsea.

Payman Langroudi: Different skill. [00:29:00] Right?

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, what are you doing to address that? Are you. So you’re now getting good at ecom [00:29:05] and. Yeah.

Rhona/Talitha: Or did you get a team? I got a team to do the website. I [00:29:10] am really trying my hardest to get my head around it, but I enjoy [00:29:15] Shopify because I like Shopify is pretty easy, right. And if you’ve used it, it’s [00:29:20] yeah, it’s pretty basic. So I can I can wrap my head around that. I’m still terrible [00:29:25] on e-commerce and all these kind of things. I need to get better. Yeah. But, um, yeah, it’s a different side of [00:29:30] the business. And again, it’s all pretty new. The products have only just launched within the past like two, two and a half [00:29:35] months. So yeah. Yeah. Right at the beginning. Yeah. We’ve had the products to sell directly [00:29:40] to our clients in salon for over a year, but I didn’t want to take them online [00:29:45] until we, you know, one.

Payman Langroudi: Big difference between products and services, yeah, [00:29:50] is that services can be profitable immediately. Products very rare that [00:29:55] they’re profitable in the first place.

Rhona/Talitha: He used to be a dentist. He gave up dentistry and he did you what? Whitening [00:30:00] systems like whitening. I would love to use your whitening. I don’t use any. I haven’t whiten my teeth in about two years. [00:30:05] Enlighten is the one to Payman Owens enlighten. Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but but but [00:30:10] my point is that with products. Yeah. If you’re not profitable for [00:30:15] three four years, really? That’s normal.

Rhona/Talitha: Well I was I’ve always had services.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:30:20] very unlikely. And for services you.

Rhona/Talitha: Tend to be.

Payman Langroudi: Profitable in the first year you know. [00:30:25]

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah I had this image because I’m obviously very naive in this [00:30:30] world that I would, you know, launch them online and ding dong. Yeah yeah [00:30:35] yeah yeah. So I was like, wait a minute. Yeah. What do you mean sorry? Why are they just sat online [00:30:40] like we’ve done a few posts. What’s happening here. Let me just start to get some traction. Actually [00:30:45] the last week was brilliant. We’ve just got loads of traction from American. I just don’t know why nothing was [00:30:50] said. Nothing was done that I can see on social. And yet most of our clients that are buying [00:30:55] online are literally 70% is from the US.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, crazy.

Rhona/Talitha: It’s [00:31:00] really, really interesting. I want to ask you though. What is [00:31:05] your home life situation? Yes, because this is one of the most [00:31:10] important things for me to understand. Like, obviously I see a strong, empowered boss woman [00:31:15] here in front of me and you know, you, from what I understand, were working day [00:31:20] and night. So when you first met your partner, was that challenging on the relationship? [00:31:25] Was it also difficult for you to like ease into a space where [00:31:30] you, you know, are trusting somebody or giving to a relationship, you know, how [00:31:35] did you navigate through that? So when I met my partner, I was still working in Selfridges. [00:31:40] So it was a different, different kind of job. I’m lucky that he’s really [00:31:45] supportive. He’s obviously now my husband. Um, and he also is works hard, [00:31:50] right? He’s not always he’s he’s busy as well, which helps. When [00:31:55] I left to start up the business, I think the biggest thing, rather than me being [00:32:00] so busy day and night, the biggest thing that you had the problem of is probably just the constant meltdowns [00:32:05] that you had to support me through. And like, I mean, making the right decision. What am I doing? [00:32:10] And I think, you know, he has definitely I’ve never said this to him, my God. So when he listens to [00:32:15] this podcast, I’m sure you listen to his podcast. Like, I probably couldn’t have done it without him. Like [00:32:20] he was such a support. No, but I think it’s really important that you have [00:32:25] some kind of support. You have that right. And he was just a stable person that I could [00:32:30] just have those meltdowns to constantly. But ideas off before [00:32:35] that, did you find that you weren’t having those sorts of interactions and relationships for [00:32:40] sure. Yeah, yeah. And also, yeah, just a completely different relationship I [00:32:45] can’t are you married him?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah, exactly. That’s why I’m married though. So like, I know it sounds weird, but I [00:32:50] also can’t really remember not being with him. We’ve been together almost ten years. Yeah, well it’s quite. We’ve been together almost a decade. [00:32:55] It’s been quite a while. Obviously been with a few shockers before him. [00:33:00] We’ll have to go through them. We all have to. Yeah. And I can’t imagine being with them. And I tried to set up my business. I probably, maybe [00:33:05] wouldn’t have even tried to sell my business, because maybe they were putting me in a place where I wouldn’t have felt confident. Yeah. [00:33:10] You know. Yeah. Whereas he’s always treated me so well or he’s believed in me. And I think that’s a really important thing. [00:33:15] My mum as well, my mum is such a solid and she’s amazing. And I always say [00:33:20] when I obviously I don’t have a relationship with my dad and I always said I, I’m sure [00:33:25] obviously I’m affected by it, but I never feel like I am because she’s such a solid. Yeah, she’s such a [00:33:30] she feels like both. Yeah. I don’t feel like I’m missing anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: My hair. But what about the juggle [00:33:35] with kids. Yes.

Rhona/Talitha: Well we’re going to get on to that. So. So the relationship was solid from the start. [00:33:40] Yeah. You felt that he could support your visions and your dreams which is great. And [00:33:45] the breakdowns can totally relate to that sort of relationship. But yeah. [00:33:50] How did you ease into motherhood? Let’s talk about that, because I feel like people don’t [00:33:55] really talk about that side of things. I my. I got pregnant with my [00:34:00] first son, Jagger. He’s three now. So we had him we got pregnant with him in lockdown. So [00:34:05] lockdown babies, lockdown babies. Everyone loved having a baby like that, which [00:34:10] I now look back on again. And I know obviously so many people had a terrible time, so I obviously [00:34:15] wanted careful what I say, but for me with the lockdown, because obviously I had Jagger and [00:34:20] it was a time that I was at home. Everyone was kind of at home. It was actually probably [00:34:25] the perfect time to have. Yeah, I know that. I don’t want to speak out of turn, but it was perfect for [00:34:30] us because. I didn’t have the pressure of work. Of course, I had the pressure of [00:34:35] not being open, but I didn’t have the pressure of work, which I just had with my daughter. So it was almost like your maternity [00:34:40] leave, basically. Yeah, exactly. And and actually, so we reopened. [00:34:45] Jagger was born in January. We reopened in the April 21st. [00:34:50]

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah, it must have been. Right. So we fully reopened in April 21st. And I was back then, so [00:34:55] I’d had January, February, March, I’d had like that time off with him where I didn’t have to feel guilty. [00:35:00] For me. It’s a guilt thing, right? I didn’t have to feel guilty about not being in the business or not being [00:35:05] present in the business. I could just enjoy my baby. Whereas it was a very different scenario with my daughter. [00:35:10] Now, Sloane, who’s eight months old, we were literally doing [00:35:15] photo shoots when I was nine months for the products. Wow. We were like staffed down. [00:35:20] I was interviewing like a maniac, like out here about to pop, afraid my water [00:35:25] break at any point. We were in negotiations with Dubai about all sorts. Things like [00:35:30] deals were dropping. It was a very stressful time, and we’re in the process [00:35:35] of creating some products that we have to constantly be speaking to different factories about. And I [00:35:40] remember being on a call, a zoom call two days after Sloane was born, and I was late to [00:35:45] the zoom, and I was like, I’m so sorry, I’ve just had a baby. And they were like, okay, but you know, we need an answer. And [00:35:50] I was like, wow. Um, yeah. They didn’t care. Like, we talk about [00:35:55] this sort of stuff all the time, though, that like, there was a we had a female dentist as well that was [00:36:00] freaking out because they wanted to do, I think, um, caesarean.

Rhona/Talitha: And she [00:36:05] said, I have to be back at work like in two weeks, like, no, it’s not an option. And even though I like [00:36:10] dental chairs are like designed and things like this, like, you know, there are still, I think, so much [00:36:15] to understand about what women need, you know, during this time. So [00:36:20] it’s really difficult. It’s really listen, I struggle with this juggle with two children [00:36:25] for sure. I find it really hard. Also, Sloane is at an age where technically it [00:36:30] would be very normal for me not to be working at this point. She’s. Yeah. So people do take years off. I mean, I [00:36:35] couldn’t, you know, of course they take a year off and they’re perfectly entitled [00:36:40] to do so. But I barely had any time off since she’s been born. And then [00:36:45] the guilt of not being with her is bad. But the, the guilt when I’m [00:36:50] with my business that it needs, you know, I need to be with the business. I have to focus on the business. I [00:36:55] have the guilt of not being with the children. When I’m with the children, I have the guilt about what’s going on in the business, [00:37:00] and I. I feel that all the time. It’s really what gives. What [00:37:05] gives? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The relationship. Right?

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s not going to be the kid [00:37:10] of the business.

Rhona/Talitha: The only thing I have with it. Well honestly at times, sometimes I think is it worth [00:37:15] it? But you know, it is. The baby was my first baby was my business. Yeah, I believe [00:37:20] in it. I believe in what I’m trying to create here. And [00:37:25] that’s ultimately what will keep me going. Yeah. And I also just try and be really [00:37:30] present with the kids when I am with them.

Payman Langroudi: When you are with them. Yeah.

Rhona/Talitha: A [00:37:35] really important I put my phone away. Good. And literally I’ll do that and [00:37:40] I’ll put it on the other side of the room because I’m too distracted. My phone doesn’t stop. You’ll know yourself, your phone doesn’t stop. Right. And there’s always something. [00:37:45] There is always something. So I’ll just put it away. So when I’m with them, [00:37:50] I’m with them. And also I of course have helped. She’s eight months old, right? But I [00:37:55] don’t. I spend at least an hour and a half with her in the morning and then set on my day. So [00:38:00] I’ve spent that with her, dropped him off at nursery and then on to work. I go and [00:38:05] it’s not for everyone. Definitely not for everyone. It’s hard. [00:38:10] But also, I feel like society kind of puts you in a box sometimes of like, you’re this [00:38:15] mum and you’re this amazing mum that’s at home with your children. You want to be, you know, you’re [00:38:20] just with your children. You’re the best mom ever because you’re always present or you’re working, [00:38:25] right. You’re one or the other. And it’s like, actually, you can be both. Like, I [00:38:30] really enjoy my children, I enjoy motherhood, but I also really like to work [00:38:35] and like to do all things. I think one of the scariest thing that’s happening online, particularly, is [00:38:40] that we’re having extremist views, like things have become so polarising. Recently [00:38:45] I posted about that NFL player Hunter. Did you see that whole [00:38:50] controversy? Here’s this NFL player and he went to a school [00:38:55] graduation, a female school graduation. And he was like, I want to congratulate you on your like whatever. [00:39:00] And he’s like one of the biggest lies that you’ve ever been told is [00:39:05] that, like, motherhood is actually the most important thing that you’ll ever do. Pretty much. Okay. [00:39:10] And that’s the kind of the lines. He’s super Christian. So like there was definitely this, um, sense of him, [00:39:15] you know, like talking about Christianity and that rhetoric. However, [00:39:20] obviously it riled up a lot of women because essentially.

Payman Langroudi: What was his point?

Rhona/Talitha: He [00:39:25] was he was basically like motherhood and having kids is way more important. And the biggest lie that you’re ever told is that, like [00:39:30] education and being successful is. Oh, so he was actually sticking up for mum? [00:39:35] Yes. Correct. And I just feel like again, we’re having this polarised. And it was really interesting because I was like, what [00:39:40] do you guys think? I talked about it on my social media. And a couple of dentists actually [00:39:45] had also said to me, like, I think that he’s really valid. Me and my partner have talked [00:39:50] about it, and I actually think that, you know, you can’t do it all. Like someone has to be the caretaker [00:39:55] of the children and someone has to be the provider. Now like that, that’s [00:40:00] fine. I understand, and a lot of women in the comments obviously were riled up. They were like, what? So you expect me not [00:40:05] to have an education and like, wait for a prince to just turn up on my door? And then I obviously made [00:40:10] the point that was, you know, imagine if you are in an abusive relationship and you don’t have any qualifications or education. [00:40:15] You can’t get out of the situation because you’ve not got this. Anyways, my point is, is that [00:40:20] again, like everything on social media, everything has become so polarised. It’s [00:40:25] either you’re the perfect mum and you’re at home, or you’re the boss woman. And it’s like there’s these like polarised [00:40:30] categories.

Payman Langroudi: Social media to one side. Yeah, right.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Starting and running [00:40:35] and making a business successful. Yeah. Is a massive sacrifice. Yeah, [00:40:40] yeah. Whoever you are. Yeah. You could be a mum. As a mum, it’s even harder because [00:40:45] you’ve got that massive guilt thing. But yeah, let’s say you’re not a mum. Let’s say you’re not even a dad. [00:40:50] Let’s say you’re just a single guy. Yeah. You won’t, you will not see your family as much as. Yeah, you’re [00:40:55] going to miss birthdays. You know, it’s it’s that kind of. It’s like being in the army or something. Yeah. [00:41:00] It has its upside, but it has its downside. Yeah. And we’ve got to, we’ve got to just be open with [00:41:05] that. Yeah. That your kids will miss out on you a little bit. They will. [00:41:10] It’s going to.

Rhona/Talitha: Give their you know.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And they’ll learn. Yeah. If I watch my mum create [00:41:15] an empire. Yeah. Like if you put one of these salons in every capital city [00:41:20] or something. Yeah, well I’ve learnt massive things just by being around you.

Rhona/Talitha: This is what my husband says [00:41:25] to me. Yeah. He literally says the same. He’s like, one day they’re going to look at you and be like, wow, look at my mum’s. [00:41:30] Done. Um, so let’s hope. How did your.

Payman Langroudi: Mum was your mum working when you were growing up? [00:41:35]

Rhona/Talitha: She was working, but she’s not entrepreneurial, like, um, I that’s not even a main thing. She [00:41:40] isn’t. You know, she just worked hard. She worked hard to put us through education. So. Yeah. [00:41:45] Really different. The one thing I will say as well about having kids is obviously I started my business pre-kids, [00:41:50] so probably took a lot more risks because there was a lot less to risk. There [00:41:55] was a lot less risk to have. Whereas now things obviously, you [00:42:00] know, I have to try and make things work and make sensible decisions because we have a family. [00:42:05] I think that’s what a lot of people struggle with. Right? Like, you know, you hear people and often [00:42:10] I go back to the deathbed situation and, you know, they they did. A [00:42:15] nurse talked about how people had their deathbed regrets about their life. And I think [00:42:20] one of the most difficult thing is like, if you’re somebody, for example, that worked in finance or a corporate job and then it [00:42:25] you ever wanted to try something, but you’ve got family to look after. Like it’s so difficult, [00:42:30] like to kind of be like, right, I’m sucking off my 100 K salary to try something, and I [00:42:35] have no idea if it’s going to work. It’s a really difficult thing, and I think the younger you take [00:42:40] the risks or miss, the better, dare I say for sure, I think so, right? And I think [00:42:45] that anyone it takes balls right, to be able to do that, whoever you are, whatever age you are. But [00:42:50] if it pays off, it pays off.

Rhona/Talitha: And I just think there’s nothing better than something working [00:42:55] out when you put the work into it. Honestly, anything that’s been successful in my life and I know [00:43:00] that we’ve worked so hard for, it’s so much more enjoyable. Yeah. Like, it’s back to your [00:43:05] point as well. If you were given something, it’s you’re never going to look at it the same, are you. So [00:43:10] you’ve earned it. Yeah. I do think pain is necessary sometimes. And pain [00:43:15] discomfort is the thing that really gets you into growth. You know, someone [00:43:20] once said to me, A comfortable or okay situation [00:43:25] is much worse than a really difficult situation, because if it’s easy for [00:43:30] you to just be in that situation where it’s just, okay, it’s not awful, it’s not amazing, yeah, you’re going to stick at it. Whereas [00:43:35] if you have something that causes you incredible pain, it forces you to grow. And I think it is really [00:43:40] important, you know, in some way I don’t wish pain upon my [00:43:45] life. But now I understand that it’s a part of the necessary journey to get me [00:43:50] to where I need to be regardless. Driver. Exactly, exactly. So speaking [00:43:55] of which, though, what was your lowest point in [00:44:00] the last ten years? Um, [00:44:05] that you felt that you were struggling. I think [00:44:10] when I moved initially, when I moved to London, I was doing the corporate role. I felt very [00:44:15] like I was on a hamster wheel. I felt like I was, you know, I had all these teams. [00:44:20] I was under immense pressure. I mean, I’m under pressure now, but the pressure that I was, it’s intensified. [00:44:25]

Rhona/Talitha: They call Selfridges the Beast and he would like. It’s a known thing. You’re working really [00:44:30] long hours and you’re under incredible pressure for, let’s face it, not much money. Yeah. [00:44:35] And I was head to toe in psoriasis at the time. Wow. Literally from stress [00:44:40] head? Yeah. From stress. I still suffer with it now, but very like. It’s like it’s [00:44:45] under I manage it. I just felt like I had no social life because I was just [00:44:50] always exhausted. But I was this young girl trying to work all the time. When [00:44:55] I went out, I was meeting the wrong people, drinking too much when I went out, probably because I was [00:45:00] just trying to mask the fact that I just wasn’t happy. But equally, I’d moved to London. I’d left a relationship [00:45:05] that nobody could understand why I left as I went back up north, up north, I suppose. The guy for a long time, [00:45:10] his family were very successful. He was very successful. He’d have married me. If I’d have done that, [00:45:15] I would have had a very nice life, till to this day would have had a very nice life. It just wasn’t enough. And [00:45:20] I just knew I had this point to prove. I couldn’t go home. And [00:45:25] I was just really unhappy and felt really lonely and moved to London with [00:45:30] one of my closest friends, and she met somebody and got pregnant within six months. So then I [00:45:35] had to change a lot of my friends now, really. And then I always had to live with somebody that I didn’t know.

Rhona/Talitha: So again, I was [00:45:40] just lonely. And then I actually, like we said about the therapist, I started speaking to this therapist and [00:45:45] did a lot of inner child work. Then within six months I met my husband. Oh wow. But I think you have to do that work [00:45:50] first. Yeah. So do you feel because you had those pain points quite early on that now when [00:45:55] you have challenges, it rarely affects your mental health, if that makes sense. Because you understand [00:46:00] the triggers. Yeah. So you can like even if you’ve got something at work [00:46:05] that triggers you or something with your kids like you, you understand how to manage it. Now [00:46:10] because so many years ago you had understood. Yeah, all [00:46:15] those different things. Listen, I’ll still go through times I like I said, I, I have [00:46:20] found it after having Sloan like not so much with my son, but after my daughter, [00:46:25] I even found social media really intense. Like being on there. Because [00:46:30] I always say one of my favourite sayings is comparison is the thief of joy. But you can’t help [00:46:35] it. Especially like when you feel like you almost have an out-of-body experience. When you have a child, [00:46:40] you don’t really recognise yourself because you don’t look like yourself. It looks [00:46:45] on social media like everybody is doing so incredibly well. Yeah, yeah, you feel [00:46:50] like you’re not. Listen, if ten of people looked at my social media, it looks like I’ve had this amazing baby. [00:46:55] You know, she’s beautiful. I’m running a business. No one knows what’s going on behind social media.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:47:00] is there a loss of identity in becoming a mother? Must be right. There must be [00:47:05] an element of that.

Rhona/Talitha: I just, I just yeah, I [00:47:10] would say that I did struggle with, like I said, with the social side of things and the comparison [00:47:15] side of things, but. Equally. I do always try and bring myself back to [00:47:20] one. I’m very lucky to have healthy children and amazing children. And yeah, the identity thing. I [00:47:25] would just say that you become a little bit more. For me personally. I’m not saying you have to be a [00:47:30] mother to be empathetic at all, but like for me, I just found myself being a lot more empathetic, a lot [00:47:35] more patient because you have to be with children, which I had zero patience before. [00:47:40] I mean, my patience isn’t great now, but it’s better.

Payman Langroudi: I think. I agree with you, it makes you a better person, [00:47:45] but I think it’s.

Rhona/Talitha: Unfair to say, yeah, I think it’s fair to say because, listen, not everyone’s [00:47:50] going to have kids. It doesn’t make you a bad person, but it makes you for me. It’s taught [00:47:55] me those things. I’m more empathetic. And also I don’t sweat the small stuff as much because [00:48:00] of the children. Yeah, I think so. I think, you know, at the end [00:48:05] of the day, everybody’s experiences are different. And like you said, some people may [00:48:10] choose, may not choose. I think the nuanced way of thinking is [00:48:15] so, so important in the world that we live in today. And I think it’s recognising that [00:48:20] mothers will have struggles. And if you do want to be a stay at home mom, you be a stay at home mom, right? If [00:48:25] you want to be a boss girl that doesn’t want to have children, that’s your choice too. If you want to do a bit of both, [00:48:30] which I’m hearing that you do, and I’d like to do eventually, that’s cool too. [00:48:35] I think what we’ve got to recognise is, is that it’s not one fits all. Yeah. And [00:48:40] I get it. Like women are biologically programmed to have children, [00:48:45] as it were. But not all women can have children either. Exactly. You know, whether or not they’ve been gifted that. So [00:48:50] I think it’s it’s really, really important. And the social media thing, [00:48:55] I think the whole like sort of mummy influencers or all of the stuff around [00:49:00] motherhood, I think it’s difficult, even me, who’s not a mother yet.

Rhona/Talitha: I look at [00:49:05] that stuff and like you say, I’m like, how are they doing it all? And there’s so much on there that I think can be quite overwhelming [00:49:10] if people don’t show the real behind the scenes, because there are behind the scenes of everything. Of course, [00:49:15] it’s a struggle. It is a struggle for most mum, most mums, of [00:49:20] course, people just take to it. But I am a really good mum. I am like, I can’t say [00:49:25] that because I am but I struggle of course and sometimes, you know, like when everything’s [00:49:30] going on with the business, one of the kids is sick and you know you’re torn and it is just constant, [00:49:35] but you’ve just got to ride that wave. They’re not always going to be this little. Yeah. So I just have to try and enjoy it, do [00:49:40] the best I can and that’s all I can see really. So tell me a little [00:49:45] bit about the Princess Trust and your involvement with them. So we recently [00:49:50] did an event with them, which was amazing. And with my client now friend Stacey Gololo, [00:49:55] who has Galileo Italia, which is an amazing brand. And she actually came to me with the Princess [00:50:00] Trust as a charity to support women supporting International Women’s Day. But they have [00:50:05] an amazing program and Women supporting women, where they actually [00:50:10] empower young girls from all kinds of different backgrounds, [00:50:15] underprivileged backgrounds, if you like.

Rhona/Talitha: And they help put them into job [00:50:20] roles, they help educate. They do all sorts. So yeah, I’ve just [00:50:25] started working with them now and we are going to be taking on somebody to help within the salon. [00:50:30] And again, it’s just such a small thing for me to be able to do, but it’s so nice to be able to work [00:50:35] with such an incredible charity. I love that so much. But tell us about how they’ve been working with you [00:50:40] as well. Sending the girls. Yes. So the girls will come into the salon [00:50:45] and then you’re asking kind of like, what? What does that mean? Like what? And I was like, well, anybody [00:50:50] that’s reached out to the Princess Trust first, please, because they want to make a change within their lives. So these are people [00:50:55] who really want to make a change, haven’t had privilege necessarily privilege. And they want to learn [00:51:00] this isn’t going to be their job forever in the salon, but they just want work experience. So that’s what we’re [00:51:05] able to offer I love that, I wish we could do that in dentistry. Imagine maybe you get nurses like [00:51:10] nurses and things like that. But but you have to like training nurses and all that stuff [00:51:15] is you could potentially do it as a receptionist. Really like that. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. [00:51:20]

Payman Langroudi: If, if you could, if I had like a magic wand and I [00:51:25] can you could, you can for your business in the next sort of five years, [00:51:30] what would be your sort of dream outcome. What are you looking to do. Are you looking to have [00:51:35] more salons or.

Rhona/Talitha: Manifest it here? Yeah, let’s manifest it when you say it comes true. Um, [00:51:40] actually, having more salons is actually not on my radar because I want to wholesale [00:51:45] to salons. So wholesaling out the hair into LA, New [00:51:50] York, Dubai, Abu Dhabi would be definitely be within the next five years. More states for [00:51:55] sure. In America, potentially another salon. I’m just going to put it out there. Why not? [00:52:00] And, um, if it’s a magic wand. Yeah. And then the products [00:52:05] that we’re bringing out were actually in talks with really exciting buyers. So it would be to be I can’t I’m [00:52:10] under NDA about the products, but that they would be stocked in these dream stores [00:52:15] around the world. One being in America, one being in Australia, and that [00:52:20] it’s very, very successful. And I’m still loving what I’m doing and we’re [00:52:25] constantly evolving. And that would be really the dream. The dream? Yeah. [00:52:30] And you wanna tell us any more about Dubai? Yes. So Dubai. I [00:52:35] recently just got back and can you believe we were there when that my whole work week was there when the floods were [00:52:40] happening. Oh gosh, I know. So that was tricky because I’d actually, uh, [00:52:45] me and my husband were like, we really need a holiday. So we were going to work. He has an office over in Dubai while his [00:52:50] company has an office. So we’re going to work the first week. Second week we’re on holiday and we we got hit with [00:52:55] the floods on the first week.

Rhona/Talitha: So we ended up working our whole holiday in the second week. That’s what I mean. Things always [00:53:00] happen, right? We’re supposed to spend it with the kids. And like every morning I was out by half. Seven missed breakfast most [00:53:05] days, didn’t see the kids till 3 p.m. on our holiday. But anyway, whatever. So yeah, [00:53:10] when we’re when I was over there, I was originally supposed to do a pop up. But, you know, I always think things always [00:53:15] happen for a reason. I always believe in my gut. And I just didn’t feel right. I changed things last minute and moved it to [00:53:20] September. And actually, it would have been the week of the floods. Oh my gosh, I know. [00:53:25] So actually that was amazing. But while I was out there, I had meetings with, um, different salons and it’s all just [00:53:30] about wholesaling the hair into their salons. So that’s all in negotiate final negotiation stages. [00:53:35] Now one of the salons is incredible. They have 30 salons in Dubai in UAE. So that [00:53:40] means our hair will be able to be available to them. We’re doing a pop up in Atlantis The Royal in September. [00:53:45] So yeah, that’s that’s kind of the amazing. And the whole family came out with you whole [00:53:50] fam came. Love it. Yeah. That’s how you take the tribe. You never say anything still.

Payman Langroudi: Right. [00:53:55] You go Liverpool. London. Virgin suffragette. Sally, what do you [00:54:00] reckon is the sort of the driver. How how did this come about?

Rhona/Talitha: The driver for just not [00:54:05] standing still.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rhona/Talitha: Do you just think it’s in you I think [00:54:10] is it just. Do you hate it when you have to stand still? I was just about to say I actually [00:54:15] really enjoy a night in on my own and sometimes being in silence, which I [00:54:20] couldn’t do years ago when we were talking about that stage when I worked in Selfridges, I could never be on my own. I [00:54:25] used to literally have panic attack anxiety. I would really struggle to be on my own, be in my own head. [00:54:30] I enjoy time on my own now because I enjoy the quiet. But I even [00:54:35] if I’m on a night on my own, I’m always thinking, planning what’s next. And I don’t know, [00:54:40] I think is it just my personality? I’m the same. I’ve started crying on Saturday because I was like in [00:54:45] and reading a book, and I said to my partner, I was like, I hate this. And he was like, you need to [00:54:50] find joy in things that you don’t feel like you’re being productive. And sometimes I can get really stuck [00:54:55] into, like a Netflix series, you know, like I watch Baby Reindeer and I finish, like, every episode, you know, [00:55:00] like, I can and like, I, you know, I really hate it when people are like, oh, I don’t watch television. [00:55:05] It’s a waste of time. I’m like, no, because actually I learn loads from like documentaries and films [00:55:10] and things like that. And I, I actually think it can be a really nice way to escape as well. You know, [00:55:15] it’s a switch off. Yeah. Exactly. To switch off is it.

Payman Langroudi: But is it some sort of like ADHD [00:55:20] trait? Do you know.

Rhona/Talitha: What I actually have done? Like a few online quizzes to see if I have ADHD? [00:55:25] Because I am sure I do. It’s obviously a lot more common than we think [00:55:30] maybe. And also we think of like, I think sometimes when you think of ADHD, you think of the extremes, right? Whereas most [00:55:35] people probably have some aspect of ADHD within them. I don’t know, maybe I should go and be diagnosed. [00:55:40] Yeah. But I think I think also I mean, ultimately I had a chat with my therapist [00:55:45] and she’s just referred me to be checked because she was like, I just think you do have ADHD and a lot of my friends do. But [00:55:50] it’s, you know, they say that on the one hand, it makes people really successful because [00:55:55] I think when when I thought of ADHD like ten years ago, 15 years ago, I think of those really hyper children I was going to [00:56:00] say having done like really climbing up the walls.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s being this thing [00:56:05] being her biggest strength and her biggest weakness. I think it’s really insightful, you know? Yeah. [00:56:10]

Rhona/Talitha: Personal life. Not great business. Great. Yeah. And that’s and I think [00:56:15] that’s the thing like they they talk exactly about that that you can multitask, get stuff done, [00:56:20] etc.. But it’s in the personal life that it can become more difficult. So it is really [00:56:25] interesting. Um, is.

Payman Langroudi: There an aspect of your business that you hate?

Rhona/Talitha: Aecom. [00:56:30] Yeah, I mean, I listen, [00:56:35] there’s this isn’t there’s no way.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, [00:56:40] I think there’s to hire a person to do that. Exactly.

Rhona/Talitha: Me too. I [00:56:45] hire people for the things obviously I’m not good at, and that’s obviously just a smart way to do things.

Payman Langroudi: So what do you think [00:56:50] you’re not good at?

Rhona/Talitha: I’m really not good at numbers. Figures. Me too. Me too, [00:56:55] me too. Um. Me too. I just got because that’s not the way our brain works. Yeah, because we have [00:57:00] ADHD. Yeah, I literally, literally, I hate it, I know I do it, I can’t do it. [00:57:05] And even like the accounts at the end of the year, now I give them the accounts were like sitting there and it’s like your [00:57:10] head’s like, oh my God, I’m so overwhelmed. I would literally rather do anything else. I have to speak to my accountant, actually, [00:57:15] when I get out of here and we’re running through a few things and I’m already, like, overwhelmed. [00:57:20] Yeah, I just don’t want to even the thought of it. It’s just not where I comfortably sit. My husband [00:57:25] comfortably sits there. He deals with my guys. Exactly. Finance. Right. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: He’s in finance. [00:57:30]

Rhona/Talitha: He’s in finance. So I can sometimes send him things and he’ll break it down. Like [00:57:35] he really helps with that aspect. But yeah, I absolutely hate those side of things. But of course it’s important you’re running [00:57:40] a business. You need to kind of know where the figures are at. So it’s somewhat important. Yeah. I [00:57:45] think at the end of the day, if you are an entrepreneur that sits more in the creative space like you [00:57:50] and I do, marketing also is like, you know, the thing that I love, you need [00:57:55] people on your team who trust, and you need people that can help you make those decisions. And I think it’s not [00:58:00] about trying to put the pressure on yourself to be 100% amazing at every single aspect. [00:58:05] Yeah, I definitely I’ve actually just heard well, she’s been here a year now. I’ve got an amazing manager of the salon. [00:58:10] Her name’s Brooke, she’s from Australia and she’s incredible. And actually she we were talking you you touched [00:58:15] on it before about being lonely when, you know, start the job. And sometimes I feel very like [00:58:20] founder. Loneliness is a thing. I feel like I have all these decisions on me.

Rhona/Talitha: If [00:58:25] I don’t make a decision, who else is going to make a decision? If this doesn’t work, it’s not on anybody else but me. I’ve got to pay [00:58:30] all these people da da da da da. And but she’s actually been a real pillar of strength in me bouncing ideas off. [00:58:35] And it’s actually been amazing. And I really value her opinion. So she’s been really good, actually [00:58:40] for the business and good for my sanity as well. And sometimes when I go to pull out of things because I’m too overwhelmed, she’s [00:58:45] like, no, you need to do this because of X, Y, and Z. And she’s made me go forward with [00:58:50] things which I’m so glad I’ve got. Question for you. Yeah. One of the last questions. Yeah. Do you find it difficult [00:58:55] to be vulnerable? I feel like I’ve been quite vulnerable in this podcast. Yeah, yeah, [00:59:00] and you have. But do you feel like you find it difficult to be vulnerable at work or at home? Yeah. [00:59:05] Interesting. Yeah. You stopped me in my tracks. Yeah, [00:59:10] yeah, I think I.

Payman Langroudi: Think that’s weakness. It.

Rhona/Talitha: Do you see it as weakness, or do [00:59:15] you fear like.

Payman Langroudi: I feel like you see it as strength.

Rhona/Talitha: I see it as strength. It is the moment [00:59:20] that I. I will be that person that will break down at work. Will you? And I will be that person [00:59:25] that will cry and ask for help. And I feel that [00:59:30] sometimes I feel judgement and sometimes I recognise how backward it is. But I [00:59:35] also think that we’re all human beings, and shared experience of vulnerability is almost a [00:59:40] superpower, and shared experience of vulnerability makes people know and understand [00:59:45] that we are human. Yeah. Will everyone understand it? No. Will everyone break [00:59:50] down their walls? No. But I think that the old school notion of, you know, just [00:59:55] there’s no such thing as depression, there’s no such thing as anxiety. Just get on with it, okay? Sure. You know, [01:00:00] my parents grew up in the Middle East, war torn countries. I don’t think they had time to be depressed, you [01:00:05] know? But I think that there is something to be said for these shared experiences. [01:00:10] I think it’s amazing that you can do that. Yeah, for sure. And that’s exactly how [01:00:15] everybody should be. It’s not the way that I am. And sometimes I felt like I was carrying [01:00:20] the weight of the world on my shoulders. My daughter actually went through a really awful time [01:00:25] when she was very young, like ten weeks old. She was in intensive care unit. Sorry. And [01:00:30] she’s absolutely fine now. Perfect health. But like, you know, it’s a very challenging time and I still like a week later I was coming to [01:00:35] work facing work. And I was really traumatised obviously by the whole experience. And I sometimes [01:00:40] I felt like I was there, but I wasn’t present, like people were talking, but I couldn’t. I couldn’t take [01:00:45] it in. And then I just walk out of like a zombie and they God knows what my team or anyone thought of me [01:00:50] at the time like, but I never shared with them until later. I find it very hard [01:00:55] to talk about. I’ve never really even talked about this, because I find it very hard to talk about very difficult situations [01:01:00] whilst they’re happening. Yeah, I just won’t do it.

Payman Langroudi: Process.

Rhona/Talitha: First I have to process. [01:01:05] I do that usually alone. Alone. Yeah, but that’s okay. You know, [01:01:10] people process things in different ways. You know, I’m interested.

Payman Langroudi: In one other thing. Um, you know, both [01:01:15] of you are in the business of cosmetics, right? And, and we know as [01:01:20] dentists, one of the worst situations is you stick all the stuff on, the person says [01:01:25] love, it goes home, and then someone says something, and then they come back and.

Rhona/Talitha: Come back, and my partner doesn’t like [01:01:30] them. And then they.

Payman Langroudi: Say, I hate it. Yeah, yeah. And with us, it’s actually quite damaging now to remove [01:01:35] all this stuff, let alone let alone costly. Yeah. For everyone. Yeah. But damaging. But [01:01:40] you must have had some. And we sometimes call that a body dysmorphia thing where the person’s [01:01:45] sort of got a problem and they think fixing the teeth will fix that problem. You must come to a point.

Rhona/Talitha: Actually. [01:01:50] Yeah. I’ve never looked at it like that.

Payman Langroudi: It must come across that sort of situation with women in hair, right?

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah. Listen, [01:01:55] we work with all, you know, all sorts of people, all sorts of people. And of course, we’ve had [01:02:00] that happen. And I think I just have to call it at the end of the day, is it worth the brand [01:02:05] damage and what she’s going to go around saying about us saying about the hair extensions, saying [01:02:10] about everything the Google reviews, the da da da. Do we just take it, [01:02:15] take the hit, take them out, refund, walk away. It’s a lesson learnt, both [01:02:20] sides. That’s usually what I’ll do. And what will really do is to try. [01:02:25] And I’m sure you’re the exact same both of you. Like, you know, we’ll really try and safeguard that. As in like we have [01:02:30] a very strict process now and they have to sign saying say they [01:02:35] are happy this is not coming out the head. Yeah. Because they are very happy [01:02:40] to pay this amount. And now it’s very rarely happened since we’ve put that [01:02:45] we’ve we’ve actually now implemented a no refund policy. I had a very yeah [01:02:50] I’ll tell you what happened. I had a girl come in. Um, uh, God. Six, seven [01:02:55] months ago, her teeth were really in a bad, bad state. Like, really bad falling apart, like [01:03:00] bonding. Um, we talked about it, everything, etc.. Then she decided [01:03:05] to have her. So she was happy to go ahead with the treatment plan. And [01:03:10] she was really weird on the day. I was getting a bit of a bad vibe off her, so I made sure [01:03:15] to make like really like copious notes about what she had wanted with her teeth. And [01:03:20] like halfway through the appointment, she was like, oh, can I have anaesthetic? [01:03:25] Like raise the hand? And I was like, okay, yeah, of course, even though I’d offered her before, she didn’t want it.

Rhona/Talitha: And then [01:03:30] when I showed her the mirror, she was like, oh yeah, they look nice. And then she went upstairs. Five minutes later [01:03:35] my receptionist messaged me saying, X patient is not happy. So I ran upstairs and I was like, I’ve got to bring in [01:03:40] someone. But it’s bonding. You can adjust it, you know, like, so don’t panic. Like it’s not like, you know, it’s an [01:03:45] unadjustable thing. She was like, no, no, no, I think I need to live with it first. And I said, okay, sure. Because I’m numb. I’m [01:03:50] like, that’s fine, live with it. We can always come back and you can always come back in two weeks or whatever. And [01:03:55] then we basically called her a million times to try and review her, [01:04:00] and then she wasn’t coming back and she’d called Amex to take the refund. [01:04:05] We’ve had the exact same thing. And then we disputed [01:04:10] it with Amex. And then she came back. And then eventually my practice manager, my treatment coordinator [01:04:15] were like, if you. Okay, so I decided to call her bluff. I said, if she doesn’t like [01:04:20] it and she wants a refund, I’ll remove all the bonding 100% because if she doesn’t [01:04:25] like it, I can remove it because I’m very minimal with my bonding. It’s not a great big deal. And her teeth underneath weren’t [01:04:30] horrendous. So I was like, that’s fine, I could remove it all if she wants a refund. She refused to [01:04:35] come in and then eventually I just don’t feel comfortable seeing her and I don’t feel comfortable.

Rhona/Talitha: This went on for like months because [01:04:40] I was like, I’m so mortified that this has happened. Eventually we offered her to see like one of my, [01:04:45] like, best cosmetic dentists. He was like, this is a really good like, I can tweak it a bit. She’ll be happy. She [01:04:50] agreed. As soon as she walks in, she’s like, I’m not having anything removed. That’s the first thing. Imagine if you hate something [01:04:55] so much, aren’t you going to be like, get it off? So she spent five minutes in the chair and then left and then still [01:05:00] insisted, insisted, and by the end of it, I just did what you did. I said, you know what? Give her the flipping money [01:05:05] back, I don’t care. But since then we’ve now written a refund policy saying no refunds. [01:05:10] And if you if for bonding and if you want to get a refund, you have to get it removed. I think, you know, [01:05:15] it’s interesting with the Amex thing because we’ve actually had it twice and we had it twice over Christmas. And what happens is [01:05:20] people spend so much money, they panic that they then have to Christmas time. Yeah, it always happens [01:05:25] around Christmas, I swear to you. And it’ll be like they’ve spent all this money and then [01:05:30] they’ve got the teeth done and they’ve got the hair extensions done. It’s over a grand couple grand, whatever. And [01:05:35] they need the money back and they go to Amex. And I have disputed every single one with Amex and I’ve won them. Yeah. [01:05:40] Because I think one key.

Payman Langroudi: Thing though, one key thing that you should both be aware of, is [01:05:45] that it’s not worth ruining the experience for your reasonable [01:05:50] patience, patience and customers because you’re trying to protect from the one that [01:05:55] might be trying to get something over on you. So let me give you an example of that. I’ll be one [01:06:00] guarantee. Yeah, we guarantee results with our product.

Rhona/Talitha: B one is the lightest colour.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. There’s no [01:06:05] way of checking. I mean, you know someone. Yeah. Someone can take two pictures at the beginning. [01:06:10] Send us these two pictures and say it didn’t work, you know, cannot check that. Yeah. On occasion, [01:06:15] several times, three, four times a year. The team say this guy is trying it on. Yeah. [01:06:20] I’m happy for this guy to try it on so that when the, you know, [01:06:25] you, one of my top customers calls me up and say, hey, pay this. This didn’t work this time. But yeah, [01:06:30] the team were like, sort you out. Oh yeah.

Rhona/Talitha: You’re.

Payman Langroudi: Right. You’re important as [01:06:35] a top customer. Yeah. The fact that someone got one over on me isn’t [01:06:40] as painful as it should be. And it’s difficult because you don’t want anyone to get one over you and our sales team, or actually [01:06:45] in touch with the people. They feel it, you know? They feel it. Yeah. This guy thinks he got one [01:06:50] over on me. Yeah, yeah.

Rhona/Talitha: I get you. But I also think, like, it’s important to protect because you [01:06:55] work so hard and you have to remember, like, doing treatments like hair extensions and bond. It’s so much time, [01:07:00] you know, and I get it time and a time and expense. And you also don’t want to develop a reputation [01:07:05] where people think they can constantly do one over you as well. You know, I think that’s important. Now, we’d have to probably bring [01:07:10] you back for part two of like business disputes. But we have run out of time. I just want to thank [01:07:15] you so much, Talitha, for being so honest, open and vulnerable today. You are honestly such an inspiration, [01:07:20] not only an incredible mother, an incredible businesswoman, and I really appreciate you coming [01:07:25] to speak to us today. Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed it. Yeah, so did I, Fox and fam [01:07:30] guys, go have a look. It is amazing okay. Thank you so much. Thank.

Rory Boyd: 100% basics and knowing your own limits and just doing the basics right. And again, [00:00:05] it comes back to for me, it’s assessment and planning. You know, cutting [00:00:10] a crown or executing a veneer or doing a good composite bond up [00:00:15] or posting core crowns and over there fading them out. But you know, if you can assess properly [00:00:20] and pick the case and pick the easy one, pick the best way to do it. Executing the treatment is easy. Picking [00:00:25] the right time to do it is the tricky bit and that’s the basics. It’s understanding good diagnosis, [00:00:30] good planning. And then once you have your problem list, I don’t start any treatment. Won’t [00:00:35] touch the patient with any burr until you have your list of treatments that you you know I’m going tip tip [00:00:40] tip I just got my it’s like cooking and I like I make my recipe and I write [00:00:45] out the recipe before I start. And it’s just go through one, two, three. And that is just pure assessment [00:00:50] and planning. But if you do not have that, you don’t have the vehicle to get to [00:00:55] success. You can’t go through a treatment without having it absolutely planned to the nth [00:01:00] degree beforehand. And and you know, don’t get me wrong, some stuff may change along the, the treatment. [00:01:05] You know, some of our patients are three, five years long. Um, some stuff changes. Ortho [00:01:10] can’t achieve what you thought they could or, you know, think teeth fail in the interim things change. [00:01:15] But but it’s assessment and planning and and that is the basics.

[VOICE]: This [00:01:20] is Dental Leaders. The [00:01:25] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:01:30] in dentistry. Your hosts [00:01:35] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:01:40] gives me great pleasure to welcome Doctor Rory Boyd onto the podcast. Rory [00:01:45] is a specialist Prosthodontist co-owner of the [00:01:50] famous Belfield Clinic in Dublin, a multidisciplinary referral [00:01:55] centre. I met Rory at the Ida event in Killarney, [00:02:00] where he was the president of the Irish Dental Association as [00:02:05] well. And um, what the youngest did you tell me you were the youngest? [00:02:10] I think it’s.

Rory Boyd: Fair to say.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, a bit young for that joke.

Rory Boyd: Got that accolade as well. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Lovely [00:02:15] to have you on the pod, buddy. Thanks for doing this. No. Pleasure to be.

Rory Boyd: Here. Thanks for asking me.

Payman Langroudi: So, [00:02:20] Rory, when we came over, um, we came over with my niece, ma’am, over [00:02:25] to the conference. It was one of the friendliest conferences I’ve been to. I would actually [00:02:30] suggest lots of people go go to that one as a weekend away, because everyone is so lovely. And [00:02:35] then, you know, the Irish know how to drink. And we drank into the early hours. And then [00:02:40] Rory, I caught the next day going for a run first thing. [00:02:45] And I just thought, what a successful human man.

Rory Boyd: I [00:02:50] think they’re running it anyway.

Payman Langroudi: Have you always been.

Payman Langroudi: Like a [00:02:55] high achiever, buddy?

Rory Boyd: I wouldn’t say high achiever, but yeah, I’ve always enjoyed, I [00:03:00] suppose, working my working hard at it, at things. Um, and [00:03:05] I guess if we’re talking about dental careers, my dental career really started in school. Um, most people talk about [00:03:10] our university or college, but I think with regards to high achievement, one of my best A-level subjects was [00:03:15] actually technology and design. And everyone talks about, uh, how sciences or [00:03:20] biology or chemistry is probably most important for dentistry. I actually think for for mine, especially as a prosthodontist, [00:03:25] my technology and design A-level was probably my most important.

Payman Langroudi: So interesting, so [00:03:30] interesting. Dipesh says exactly the same thing. Yeah, he did, he did the same. And he says that’s the thing [00:03:35] that’s made him the composite guy that he.

Rory Boyd: Yeah. I remember sitting in labs in third year undergraduate [00:03:40] and we were doing I think we’d come to the Crown and Bridge section. And when we were talking [00:03:45] and they were talking about, you know, the CAD cam aspect and talking about like when [00:03:50] I was 16, um, at Campbell College in Belfast, we were using the same we were using a [00:03:55] CAD design software called Pro Desktop, which was a kind of a dumbed down version of Pro Engineer, [00:04:00] which was kind of the CAD engineering CAD system at the time. And actually, if you look at actual [00:04:05] Cod or Dental designer or whatever design software you want, you want to use, they’re all based on the [00:04:10] same model, which was actually the same thing I was using 20 years ago in my GCSEs. And, you [00:04:15] know, if you look at the systems that we that we learned at school with regard to vacuum forming, CAD, [00:04:20] cam milling, we called it, we only had a 2D milling. So it was writing at the time. But [00:04:25] actually, yeah, I mean from that was one of my favourite subjects you talk about, you [00:04:30] know, have you always been successful. That was that was probably when I was most successful in my A-levels. Uh, and [00:04:35] it’s corresponding. It’s corresponded well to my, to my career, but I think I haven’t.

Payman Langroudi: So you grew up in [00:04:40] Belfast?

Rory Boyd: I’m from Belfast, and I suppose I moved to Dublin for college [00:04:45] and I’ve had some brief spells away from here, but I’ve been in Dublin for the guts of 18 years and, [00:04:50] you know, again, coming back to your your question [00:04:55] around, you know, high achievement. I think my background in sport has probably been my second biggest. Influence [00:05:00] in my career. Um, and I think never played to any [00:05:05] extreme levels or anything like that, but played a lot of rugby growing up in the team environment there. And I [00:05:10] think that the kind of skills that you learned and the team sport environment, whether it be at school or college [00:05:15] or in clubs, I think that transfers hugely to how we work as Dental [00:05:20] team and from, you know, moving through college and then into into practice that, [00:05:25] you know, that team, the ability to work within a team and know your know and understand your role [00:05:30] both as an individual but also as a part of a bigger machine. I think that that’s another area [00:05:35] from, you know, from outside of the career. So whether it be school, whether it be sport, those things are all influences [00:05:40] to your career, more so than sometimes what you learn at college or courses. You do, [00:05:45] you know.

Payman Langroudi: So I mean, I’m going to ask you might resent the fact that [00:05:50] any time you say you’re from Belfast, someone brings up the troubles. Do you know?

Rory Boyd: Look, the troubles [00:05:55] is part of our history. Um, it’s part of part of our fabric. It’s part of how we’re made up, you know? And I’m [00:06:00] a I suppose I’m a Protestant from Belfast that’s been living in Dublin for 18 years. [00:06:05] Um, that has no like I have no major. I suppose at home we’d say, you [00:06:10] know, political opinion, I guess. But the troubles are something. When you’re from [00:06:15] Belfast, it’s just part of your makeup. You don’t really know that it’s that different at the time. And everyone kind of, [00:06:20] you know. Yeah, people who you meet always ask you, oh, how was it? You’re like, well, I actually don’t [00:06:25] know any different. So and we were lucky enough that the guy I left school in [00:06:30] 2000.

Payman Langroudi: The too young.

Rory Boyd: To read and I left school in 2006. So if we look [00:06:35] at the peace process, which kind of probably 99 in my formative years, we [00:06:40] lived in peace and and we were we were the lucky. We were the first generation that were lucky enough [00:06:45] in Belfast to. There were small things that would have affected your life, but not very much. Um, and [00:06:50] I don’t think, you know, look, the troubles are something that we need to look back [00:06:55] on and understand that it carved, you know, carved out what Northern Ireland is. And [00:07:00] you know, how things have changed since it. But as a population, [00:07:05] hopefully, you know, you’ve got to look at the positives and hopefully it’s made us stronger and hopefully, you know, we can continue the same [00:07:10] path that we’ve been taking for the last whatever since, you know, whatever it is, 25 [00:07:15] years. So yeah, look, I’ve been living in Dublin for 18 years and [00:07:20] it does. It does thankfully doesn’t come up too often. But um, and it’s interesting, I’m also part of a rugby [00:07:25] background. You know, I’ve played rugby, I played, you know, rugby at school, played rugby [00:07:30] for in clubs in Belfast, played rugby in New Zealand. Uh came back played rugby in Dublin. And [00:07:35] I think rugby’s probably an amazing sport because it obviously transcended the Northern Ireland Southern [00:07:40] Ireland issues.

Rory Boyd: And we you know we’ve, we’ve ever you know, we’ve always only ever had an Irish rugby team. We [00:07:45] don’t have a Northern Irish rugby team. Um, so you grew up if you lived within the rugby, you [00:07:50] know, term in an all Ireland within that sport. And it doesn’t [00:07:55] really matter what country you go to having played it abroad as well. [00:08:00] You know rugby, rugby’s one of those sports that transcends boundaries. And you know there’s an ethos [00:08:05] to the sport that is like everyone comes up with their, you know, what is it, hooligans [00:08:10] game played by gentlemen. Um, but it is. And rugby is one of those [00:08:15] sports that transcends that. And I think in Ireland especially, you know, you can see you can see that within the rugby [00:08:20] family here. My father has been the chairman of the rugby club in Dublin, living [00:08:25] in Belfast for the last 12 years. Um, and I’m still involved and that’s 20 [00:08:30] cuts the university, Trinity College and I’m still involved with the rugby club there. So yeah, I think, I think, [00:08:35] you know, growing up in Belfast, being, you know, being part of the rugby family there also gives you [00:08:40] a potentially a slightly wider look on things.

Rory Boyd: But look, there’s no I’m not getting around [00:08:45] the fact that Belfast has had some significant issues, whether whatever side of the fence [00:08:50] that you live on and, you know, I’m not trying to belittle them, they’re certainly very important. But [00:08:55] I think over the last 25 years we’ve had huge, huge leaps [00:09:00] forward. And I’m an example of that. I mean, I in fact, so much so even when I went to college [00:09:05] in Dublin, my fees were paid for by the Northern Irish Education [00:09:10] Board for cross-community, um, reasons. So the effectively the [00:09:15] Belfast Education and Library Board paid your fees only for undergrad now post grad certainly certainly [00:09:20] you had to pay for yourself but uh but you know so there were some positives [00:09:25] to it as well. And we you know I think look, I’m a I’m an optimistic person. I look back [00:09:30] probably a rose tinted glasses and say that it didn’t affect me very much. And, you know, there still are problems [00:09:35] there. And and there always will always will be. Certainly in my, in my lifetime I think, [00:09:40] um, but thankfully we’re, we’re moving forward and kind of hopefully [00:09:45] learning to live with those issues, um, and keep them, um, where [00:09:50] they’re peaceful.

Payman Langroudi: And what do.

Payman Langroudi: You feel Irish as in the [00:09:55] island of Ireland. That’s an interesting one.

Payman Langroudi: What do you feel?

Rory Boyd: So. And everyone. Irish, Northern [00:10:00] Irish. So if I’m on holiday and somebody asks me where I’m from, I say Ireland just because it’s easier. Uh, [00:10:05] so it doesn’t open up a strange conversation. If I get into it, I [00:10:10] would say I’m Northern Irish. I’m from the country of Northern Ireland. That is my nationality. [00:10:15] I can and have applied for the Irish passport. So [00:10:20] I do carry both passports, but that’s mainly because of Brexit, so I don’t have to stand the queues. Um, [00:10:25] the if you’re flying within Europe. But yeah I’m Northern Irish, northern. It’s the same some [00:10:30] someone said you know, it’s the same as Scotland. You know the Scottish people say they’re [00:10:35] British or do they say they’re Scottish and I. Yeah. So Scottish, I’m Northern Irish, I’m [00:10:40] from the island of Ireland. Um, and if somebody abroad [00:10:45] asks me, I just say Ireland because it’s easier. And I live in Dublin, so I don’t have to explain that. So yeah, [00:10:50] I suppose I don’t have a huge look. I enjoy being Irish. I enjoy Irish [00:10:55] traditions and and heritage. I enjoy traditional music here. I enjoy [00:11:00] our traditional national drink of Guinness here. But yeah, I think if I came down to it, I’m Northern Irish, [00:11:05] that’s my home. That’s where I was brought up and that’s that’s still home. Um, [00:11:10] even though I may not, uh, may not live, live there again, but we’ll see. But, [00:11:15] um, no, certainly I would say I’m Northern Irish, but I’m from the island of Ireland, just to be to [00:11:20] be clear, but no. And I like Dublin’s home now for me, like, my parents still live in Belfast, [00:11:25] but I think Dublin’s home for me for the foreseeable future.

Payman Langroudi: And so tell me about [00:11:30] dentistry. Why dentistry? Is your dad dentist? Anyone? Anyone in your family?

Payman Langroudi: Dentists? Good question.

Rory Boyd: I actually [00:11:35] wanted the architecture. Uh, so my brother’s a dentist. We [00:11:40] we don’t know. My dad’s not a dentist. My dad worked for one of the banks in Belfast, and my mum [00:11:45] is a special education teacher. She, interestingly enough, actually [00:11:50] one of the reasons I probably ended up so I was diagnosed with dyslexia when I was, uh, [00:11:55] just before about 6 or 7. And my mum at the time was a PE teacher. Um, [00:12:00] and she decided that when I was diagnosed with dyslexia to, to to go [00:12:05] heavy into dyslexia and kind of move out of PE, she actually dislocated her shoulder at the time as well. [00:12:10] So I think she needed a change. And um, she got big into that, which probably [00:12:15] I probably don’t appreciate enough how much that helped me along the way actually, [00:12:20] because because she got big into it. Then I got a lot of additional help at home. Don’t get me wrong, English [00:12:25] or any language wasn’t in my A-level choice, but but you know, that was a huge help [00:12:30] growing up. And then I think initially I wanted to be a chef because I really enjoyed cooking. [00:12:35] And then I really enjoyed technical, technical drawing from my [00:12:40] kind of technology and design subjects. So I kind of wanted do architecture, and then I took the head staggers when I got to it [00:12:45] because I when I got to A-levels and then my brother had applied for dentistry and [00:12:50] he had gone travelling for a year beforehand. So I wanted to go travelling, but my parents said I wasn’t allowed [00:12:55] to go travelling for a year unless I had a university place to come back to in case I never came back.

Rory Boyd: So [00:13:00] then I applied to to Dublin and I didn’t really know what I wanted to do. [00:13:05] I didn’t have dentistry now because I was basically the younger brother trying to copy his older brother. And I think [00:13:10] if I remember correctly, I put on physio. It didn’t. Yeah, I think physio [00:13:15] and pharmacy maybe. And I don’t know why I put pharmacy. That would have been a nightmare for me. But I really was just [00:13:20] shotgun approach to applying to university and I didn’t have, I didn’t have chemistry. So when [00:13:25] we applied from the north to the south, it doesn’t matter on the grade, it just matters on the on the points you get. Um, so [00:13:30] when I looked at dentistry, which was the kind of at that stage was the number one, and probably again, [00:13:35] just copying my brother, I couldn’t apply to the UK. There were no I had too much science for [00:13:40] the pre dent courses, the six year programmes, and I hadn’t enough science because [00:13:45] I hadn’t, I had done biology and physics, but I hadn’t done chemistry for the, for the, for the five year programme. So I couldn’t [00:13:50] actually apply to the UK, which is actually where I wanted to go because all my friends were going there from Belfast. So I ended up applying [00:13:55] to university not knowing what I wanted to do, and only applied to the university that I didn’t really want to go [00:14:00] to at the time. So um, but then I got in and [00:14:05] I actually, I took the year, I deferred it for a year, took the year I went travelling and a brilliant time [00:14:10] and I came back.

Payman Langroudi: Where’d you go? Where’d you go?

Rory Boyd: I did your your standard gap route. Uh, whatever it [00:14:15] was Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Malaysia, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Fiji, Hawaii, California, [00:14:20] Arizona, Nevada, New York. Um.

Payman Langroudi: It was a big trip. [00:14:25]

Rory Boyd: Yeah, me and my best friend from school. So I came back, started dentistry. [00:14:30] And just from the word go was like a duck to water. Loved it. And [00:14:35] I think, you know, again, when you talk about high achievement or, you know, high performance or [00:14:40] those I think the number one, the high achievement of performance is enjoy it. And if [00:14:45] you enjoy it then then it’s game on. And and it doesn’t seem like a chore. Studying isn’t [00:14:50] as difficult. It always is, but isn’t as difficult. So yeah. [00:14:55]

Payman Langroudi: But you tell yourself to enjoy it. I mean, I’m sure there’s, there’s bits of [00:15:00] the job in the Ida that are, you know, difficult. I remember you running off to the media interviews [00:15:05] and all that. Um, do you tell yourself to enjoy things and then find find [00:15:10] the enjoyment in them? Yeah.

Rory Boyd: Yeah, potentially. And I think, yeah, [00:15:15] don’t get me wrong, you know, everyone, I’m not going to sit here and say that, you know, I still work five days a week. [00:15:20] I work and I’ve got a lot going on outside of my, my, my practice, um, job as well [00:15:25] with Irish Dental Association and other bits and pieces for different education, [00:15:30] um, reasons. And I still teach in the dental school and yeah, I’m busy, but yeah, [00:15:35] I think there might be some of it that you kind of go, you know, I’m not going to sit here and say that I, you know, every [00:15:40] minute of every day anything to do with dentistry is, is a is a is a love and a passion. And there [00:15:45] are certain aspects of it I don’t love, I don’t love admin, I don’t love the practice [00:15:50] management stuff. I don’t love HR, I don’t love, you know, there’s definitely some aspects [00:15:55] to it that that are a chore. But I think the number one still has to be I look, I’m [00:16:00] a clinician, I love treating patients and I love, I love I’m a prosthodontist, I [00:16:05] live for fit day. You know, that’s if you know, you have a big fit day coming up that week and, [00:16:10] you know, maybe, I don’t know, ten, 15, 20 units, whatever it may be for large, [00:16:15] you know, anterior work, you know, that’s what that’s what makes you tick. That’s [00:16:20] the that’s the buzz you fit the work, the patients and tears and happiness. Hopefully not sadness. [00:16:25] And and they’re the day. They’re the days I do it for. I really enjoy [00:16:30] teaching, um, because I have a real respect for educators. It’s [00:16:35] not just because you’ve you’ve got some accolades in your own personal academic achievement [00:16:40] does not make you an educator or a teacher. So that’s an area that I, that I really enjoy and [00:16:45] I enjoy trying to get better at. Um, and I’ve always committed to, [00:16:50] to teaching.

Payman Langroudi: At what point did you decide you want to be a specialist? Were you even in undergrad [00:16:55] thinking that or was it after?

Rory Boyd: No, I knew from the word go. The first. [00:17:00] And I was our third year, uh, undergraduate when we were doing our laboratories in [00:17:05] Cronin Bridge and Dancers. And that was the point. I knew and I [00:17:10] knew very, very, very quickly at that because they were the techniques that I enjoyed. I enjoyed [00:17:15] making stuff. And the same reason why I think I have a passion for cooking. I have a passion for, you know, [00:17:20] maybe not a passion for DIY, but I enjoy making stuff for problem solving and fixing things. And [00:17:25] I think process just really lent itself to me for that. And, you know, from there, [00:17:30] I kind of made it clear to everyone around me that prosthodontics is where I was trying [00:17:35] to go, and everything I did was based around owning that goal. Like the one piece of advice [00:17:40] I also give to younger dentists, and you get a lot of a lot of guys and final [00:17:45] year coming up and asking, oh, what should I do? Should what should I specialise in? Like, that’s not the question. [00:17:50] It’s what do I enjoy doing? Because especially those who do well in [00:17:55] exams or, you know, that kind of they’re coming top of their class and they see being a specialist [00:18:00] as the pinnacle of success, which I don’t think a specialist is having the privilege of being a specialist, having [00:18:05] the privilege to know nothing about everything else, and just having to do that little bit all day, every day. And [00:18:10] yes, okay, you have to be half decent at that. But I don’t see being a specialist [00:18:15] as, as above the general practitioner, I see it alongside and we’re we’re a lateral [00:18:20] referral. It’s not a hierarchical scheme that if you to be successful in dentistry you have to [00:18:25] be a specialist. That is not that is not the case. And anyone who does think that has too big an ego. [00:18:30]

Payman Langroudi: But when you tell.

Payman Langroudi: When you tell the youngster to to figure out what they enjoy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:18:35]

Rory Boyd: And I do think, I.

Payman Langroudi: Do think.

Payman Langroudi: No position there, no position there. No. They’re in no position to figure [00:18:40] out what like if I’ve done if I’ve done only ten root canals, how do [00:18:45] I know whether I want to be an artist. And I find that my advice is opposite. [00:18:50] My advice is get good at something and you will enjoy that thing. Yeah, rather than figure [00:18:55] out what you enjoy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Question.

Payman Langroudi: Because a lot of the a lot of them really stumble on that question all the time.

Rory Boyd: And it takes time. [00:19:00] I was very lucky that that that I knew my focus early on. But [00:19:05] I don’t think that’s the best route for everybody. I did, I did [00:19:10] I started a specialist program two years after graduation, and at that time I was the youngest specialist [00:19:15] on the program in Ireland. There has been some behind who’ve done it in the same timeline. I [00:19:20] don’t think that’s the best way to do it for everyone. Um, and having a broader experience [00:19:25] and practice beforehand can often be far more beneficial than [00:19:30] jumping into a speciality early doors, because if you don’t like it, [00:19:35] you’re stuck. At least in general dentistry, there are there are still avenues and pathways [00:19:40] to go. But if you narrow yourself so to to tightly at the start [00:19:45] in the quest of you know what you think will be perceived success. If I [00:19:50] become a specialist, that’s that’s going to get you into trouble because you’re going to end up doing a job you don’t enjoy. [00:19:55] So as you come back to what you said, enjoying what you do is, number one, you [00:20:00] know that that has to be your driver because success will follow when you enjoy it. [00:20:05] And that again, coming back to your question with high performance and and high achievement, [00:20:10] it it comes when you enjoy it. And the reason why I [00:20:15] was accepted onto the program earlier was because I’d made it very clear to the to the course [00:20:20] directors and things that this is this is what I enjoy, and that’s why I want to do the program, not not [00:20:25] for any other reason. And then, yeah, I was lucky enough to be to be accepted at the time. [00:20:30]

Payman Langroudi: But I’m interested. The reason I brought up the running thing is because I’m interested [00:20:35] in, in order to be to excel at Dental school or at anything in life. [00:20:40] Is there sacrifice? Of course there is, right. There is sacrifice. You all know that you’re [00:20:45] you’re sacrificing right now. Yeah. Spending this hour with me that you could be spending.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:20:50] know, with.

Payman Langroudi: No. But you know what I’m saying? This there’s sacrifice left right and centre. Now, [00:20:55] the question that that kind of intrigues me, right is that [00:21:00] is that sacrifice for some people at the cost of what? Yeah. So [00:21:05] the cost of the sacrifice. So when I say, oh, you turned up and you ran like, were [00:21:10] you the kind of Dental student who used to work your ass off and then party your ass off later on? Because there are [00:21:15] these individuals you meet in life who manage to pull that off. And I just [00:21:20] take my hat off to all of those types.

Rory Boyd: Yeah. I think if you if you knew me personally as [00:21:25] socially, you’d probably say, yeah, I think having a, having a good engine, having a good engine has [00:21:30] been, uh, has been, has been a term used before. Yeah. Look. Yeah. Look, I’ve, I [00:21:35] enjoy myself in all facets. Um, and. Yeah, but I think one of my biggest pieces [00:21:40] of advice. Never mind your partying and socialising. Yes, it’s definitely something that’s, that’s in [00:21:45] my repertoire. But I think having hobbies and interests outside of [00:21:50] dentistry is massively important. I think. Look, dentistry takes over a solid college, you [00:21:55] know, it’s all it’s everything you eat, breathe, sleep, sleep, drink. You know, I tried [00:22:00] to play rugby at college and it just didn’t fit with the timetable and injuries and [00:22:05] things. So I stopped playing serious rugby when I was in my second year. I still played some social Hospitals [00:22:10] Cup stuff, but still managed to fracture the base of my skull once, [00:22:15] shattered my eye socket. And third year oh my god, I’ve broken l5 c6 [00:22:20] like those. Just don’t. Those don’t comply with rugby. So rugby kind of for [00:22:25] any serious level of rugby stop for me and and kind of second year. But I do think what’s been [00:22:30] most important. So I obviously did a lot of college. I did my undergrad, I worked then as a kind of house [00:22:35] officer, which is like an nchd role, a hospital role for the year.

Rory Boyd: And then I worked [00:22:40] in practice in Belfast for a year, and I went back to my postgrad. So I was kind of in the dental hospital for [00:22:45] ten years, bar one in between. I spent a small bit of time at UCLA as [00:22:50] part of a postgrad and undergrad actually. But but otherwise I was in the dental hospital for the guts of ten years, I think [00:22:55] indirectly. So once I came out of dental school when I was 29, [00:23:00] I finished and I bought the practice. It [00:23:05] then practice takes over your life. Um, so that fills that void. But then [00:23:10] at some point there’s, there’s a, there’s kind of a realisation of this is it. [00:23:15] And you know, once you, you know, for me, I was lucky enough to buy a practice. So you knew you weren’t moving. [00:23:20] You’re the, you’re the you’re the only member of staff who isn’t at risk of leaving because it’s your house. [00:23:25] So there comes a point once that practice is up and running and kind of taking over and everything, you [00:23:30] kind of realise this is it. And because you go through college and you do first years, [00:23:35] you go through and you do your exams in second year and you get to fifth year and everything’s targeted, everything’s like there’s hurdles to [00:23:40] get over and you get over that and then you’re like, right, I want to do post-grad.

Rory Boyd: And then the targets, the post-grad. You get into that [00:23:45] and you’ve got three years of that, and then you’ve got, you know that and you’ve got your, your fellowships and your membership [00:23:50] exams or whatever. And once they’re done, then probably for specialists especially, I know there’s a lot more, [00:23:55] um, who don’t end up as practice owners, but specialist wise here still, the route would be that you would own your [00:24:00] business generally and that was the next target. Then you get that done, that’s up and running and then you’ve no more targets. Then. [00:24:05] Then what’s that’s it. And there’s this point in your career which happens earlier on early on [00:24:10] going right. Well what what am I to do next or what’s the and for me [00:24:15] look obviously building building and growing the practice is one, education is two. But enjoying yourself outside of dentistry [00:24:20] is three because you will burn out and you’ve just spent, whether it’s been undergrad and post grad, maybe you spent ten years [00:24:25] of your life committed to dentistry all in you look, you’re still going holidays and things, but but it’s all [00:24:30] in committed commitment. And I think it’s super important that we have time for travel [00:24:35] or for cooking, or for rugby, or for socialising or for partying, whenever that’s appropriate.

Rory Boyd: You [00:24:40] know that we that we have a full, you know, a full gamut of things that we enjoy [00:24:45] because the dentistry is a tough job. Um, it’s a physical job. It’s, [00:24:50] you know, it’s it’s patient facing 90% of the time. There’s no you know, you look [00:24:55] at our colleagues who work in offices, they’re meeting clients three times a week, you know, and otherwise they’re [00:25:00] in the office, you know, having 20 minutes to the coffee, the coffee machine with somebody and chit chat. And so [00:25:05] so we’re full on 9 to 5 patient facing. And that that is that is a [00:25:10] that’s a tough slog. And if that’s all you have in your in your enjoyment category that that can get [00:25:15] tough. So I think it’s really important whether look I obviously like to exercise in all [00:25:20] different areas. And as we get older, you generally hit that middle aged man who starts running marathons and doing triathlons. [00:25:25] I’m there. Um, but but I think it’s super important to have to [00:25:30] have serious enjoyment outside of dentistry as well. Look, I love dentistry more than anyone else in the planet. But [00:25:35] you have to have other aspects of your life that you enjoy that [00:25:40] you set time apart for. And dentistry we’re lucky enough for. Dentistry is a great job that you can you can take [00:25:45] time off.

Rory Boyd: You can, you can, you can travel. You can, you can do super interesting things. And [00:25:50] look, I think it’s I think it’s super important that we bring that into, we bring that into, into our [00:25:55] life. But you know, because dentistry does take can take over. And I think it’s really important that we that we remember [00:26:00] that and remind ourselves at times because there are times you can start chasing the waiting list, you can start working all [00:26:05] the hours in the day, and you can start to feel that kind of sense of, oh, there’s burnout. I [00:26:10] can feel it. You know? It’s like that’s that’s another, another six months of that. You can okay. You [00:26:15] can, you can get up, put yourself under pressure that you don’t need to. So it’s really important we recognise that and it’s absolutely [00:26:20] normal and like I yeah exercise would be my my my I exercise cooking [00:26:25] and travel would be my three. But but yeah like it’s super important that we recognise that especially for you [00:26:30] know I love teaching I love kind of mentorship of younger dentists. I love I love [00:26:35] seeing people that you have an influence on influencing blossom. And I [00:26:40] think that’s one of my major points is, is trying to make sure that you have interests outside of [00:26:45] outside of practice.

Payman Langroudi: So take me through the course [00:26:50] itself. The postgrad course was, I mean, a lot of people see doing a masters [00:26:55] as, as kind of the same whatever, wherever it is. And also [00:27:00] two different students on the same masters get completely different things out of it depending [00:27:05] on, you know, what they do and you spend that time at UCLA. I spent some time at UCSF [00:27:10] and the the mindset was very different out there. I found [00:27:15] amongst the post-grads, maybe because they were paying so much money or whatever it was, but not [00:27:20] I mean, they were getting into it younger than than here, earlier than here. I [00:27:25] from my experience, um, give me your reflections on, on, on on all of that sort of [00:27:30] specialising as a fixed price guy as a, as a pros guy. Um, the [00:27:35] course where to go. How much is going to cost you for a young guy thinking of specialising break [00:27:40] it down.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rory Boyd: It’s probably changed a little bit since I, I’m seven years out now. [00:27:45] But look, when I, when I first talked about wanting to do it and seriously talking about wanting [00:27:50] to do pros and kind of my final year of college and I what I would do, my best piece of advice [00:27:55] is get a mentor, find someone that you respect, appreciate what they do [00:28:00] have a relationship with, and and ask them, um, and ask them to guide you. And [00:28:05] if they can’t find out who can. Because for me, I there were a couple of, [00:28:10] um, you know, professional Colonel Mike Doctor Sullivan. At the time, they were kind of my [00:28:15] my mentors at the undergraduate level. I also had a couple of other [00:28:20] kind of younger prosthodontists that I really looked up to and knew very well socially. So it was easy for me because I had that [00:28:25] kind of natural communication line with mentors, which is which is hard because [00:28:30] especially if you’re a quieter, less I mean, I call it confidence, [00:28:35] but some people call it cockiness. Uh, if you’re less confidence, then it can be [00:28:40] difficult to approach somebody and ask them that within college. But that was for me. So I asked, [00:28:45] you know, what should I do? And I wanted to go to the States because going to the States was the thing every, you know, American [00:28:50] trained prosthodontist that’s, you know, at the time in Ireland, our Prosthodontic course has only [00:28:55] really been running well, it’s been running 23 years now, but at that time 20, 15 years old. [00:29:00]

Rory Boyd: So all the senior prosthodontist that you knew were all American trained, therefore American trained had to be the [00:29:05] thing that the way to go. So. But, but, but what I didn’t realise at the time was every single [00:29:10] course is completely different. The makeups different, what they actually study is different. The how they study [00:29:15] it is completely different. You know, for example, if I remember correctly, in my [00:29:20] intake, we place some implants on the, on the, on the POS program. But it was a handful, just [00:29:25] that you knew what you were basically asking for when you were referring it. But not enough. Not enough for you to [00:29:30] go ahead and place them. But it would be enough for you to go, right? Okay, maybe I want to add that to my repertoire when I get out, maybe go. And do [00:29:35] you know another program in surgery? But we placement, I don’t know, 5 [00:29:40] or 6 fixtures or something in our program. Then you go over the same [00:29:45] year group, you go to Chicago and they’re placing 100 fixtures a year in the program. Right. [00:29:50] So I was like, why didn’t she do the prosthodontics? But then removable [00:29:55] partial dentures, they did none. Right. So so every the courses are not heterogeneous [00:30:00] or homogeneous.

Rory Boyd: They’re they’re all very different. So, so [00:30:05] I so the first piece of advice was go and research the programs, get the syllabus and the curriculum. But the other problem [00:30:10] is when you’re qualifying fifth year, you read the syllabus. You don’t really know that either. You know, because you kind of go, well, what? [00:30:15] How much how much removable work is or how much. So you don’t you really need mentorship [00:30:20] or somebody you trust to go through that with you. So I had I looked at the States and that was kind [00:30:25] of where I was going to go. And then I threw an application into Dublin. Um, it opened [00:30:30] earlier, so I was going to apply to both. But really, in my heart of hearts, I wanted to go to the States and I and I [00:30:35] knew usually you needed about six years experience to get into Dublin, whereas obviously you’re right, in the States [00:30:40] they go straight from undergrad or, well, from, from from dental school they’ll call it. Yeah, their undergrad [00:30:45] before dental school. But they go straight from dental school, might do GPR or something, and then they’ll go into into the program. So they are [00:30:50] generally younger in their dental career than, than we would be in the UK or in Ireland. So [00:30:55] I didn’t think I’d get into Dublin because you needed six years, you know, anyone before me had had six years experience, not two. [00:31:00]

Rory Boyd: So then Dublin offered me a place and the whole American dream fell apart. Um, [00:31:05] so I was like, oh God. Right. Okay. You know, that’s brilliant. I get to study, [00:31:10] I get to stay at home night. There was part of me still wanted to go to the States and experience that. Um, my dad had been to [00:31:15] UCLA in the 70s. We’d spent a lot of time over there on summer holidays, you [00:31:20] know, meeting up with his pals. And and we have lots of friends that live in Los Angeles. So I kind of still [00:31:25] I still had that little itch that I wanted to scratch. Um, so that’s that’s [00:31:30] so that’s why I organised the externship and it was just basically the guts of a semester in my first [00:31:35] year. Um, I spent over there, but. So. Yeah. So the first thing I would, I would [00:31:40] when you’re, when you’re looking to apply is find out what they, what the [00:31:45] courses in the curriculums are, ask a mentor to go through those with you and then do everything [00:31:50] in your power, but find to find out what admissions criteria [00:31:55] they have, and then do everything in your power to, to go to, to meet those. And [00:32:00] the other thing I would also suggest is meet the universities, go over there, meet the, meet the staff, because [00:32:05] there aren’t going to be that many people applying.

Rory Boyd: I mean, if you look at, say Dublin here, we’ve, we’ve, we take [00:32:10] we prosthodontics, we take two a year. So if you’ve come over and met [00:32:15] the course director for a meeting and asked for a tour of the hospital, you’re showing that you want to go [00:32:20] when they’re sitting down in front of, you know, whatever shortlisting that they’re doing that you’re obviously going to get shortlisted [00:32:25] because they know they’ve got a face to the name on the CV or the or the application form. So that would be [00:32:30] from an admissions point of view, probably the best piece of advice I could give from that. So find a mentor, [00:32:35] find the right school, find the right curriculum, find out what they want and do absolutely everything [00:32:40] and more and meet them. Meeting them, I think, is, you know, even if you’re a [00:32:45] little bit short in the CV, they’re showing the effort to go over and meet them or um, and it’s [00:32:50] like, I remember being on the program in Dublin, and what they would do [00:32:55] is they would actually send the prospective um, students and they would actually sit with [00:33:00] the, the other students and the other students, or the prospective student probably [00:33:05] thought that was, oh, just for us to get to know them, but actually, what? Then they come around and ask us who we liked and who would [00:33:10] we want on the course. And, you know, people on the course and the staff within the course have all of the power [00:33:15] to, you know, make the decisions.

Rory Boyd: And it’s such a tricky decision because it can be a life changer. [00:33:20] You know, if you get onto the program, you don’t could change the course of everything, you know. So it is it is a stressful time. [00:33:25] But the Dublin course is based on the Air Force Manual. It’s an Air Force based curriculum which you’ll [00:33:30] find in the States that’s, you know, a kind of a theme. We’re Air Force based [00:33:35] in design with regards to our program, first six months with the tech course. So you don’t treat it, don’t [00:33:40] don’t treat a patient for the first year. Um, you do six months of, of [00:33:45] lab tech and then you do basically. Well, whatever the second half of [00:33:50] the year is basically assessments and workshops. Um, that’s about it. So, [00:33:55] um, because look, at the end of the day, every [00:34:00] everyone can cut grinds and cut veneers and, and, you know, whatever. But it’s planning [00:34:05] the cases. And assessing the cases are the two that I think are specialist [00:34:10] prosthodontist. That’s your speciality. Your speciality is planning. Good assessment, good diagnosis, [00:34:15] good planning. That’s it. The rest of it’s just executing okay. It might be bigger treatment, but [00:34:20] if you’ve got the case well planned and assessed you can’t. You know it’s not going to go [00:34:25] too far wrong.

Payman Langroudi: How many years was was your course.

Rory Boyd: Uh, three. And a bit [00:34:30] full time. Full time. Yeah. And you know your.

Payman Langroudi: How did you [00:34:35] fund.

Payman Langroudi: It?

Rory Boyd: Tricky one. When I was doing it, I think the was [00:34:40] what was it. Was it 25 grand a year unpaid [00:34:45] in Dublin through tricky one I, I went we I was very lucky [00:34:50] um I went to every bank in Dublin. Not one would give us [00:34:55] any money as you one offered me €3,000, I think. And you’re looking at 75 [00:35:00] grand fees to start with. So that was a tricky one. But I’m very, very lucky because [00:35:05] my parents funded it. Um, I knew that it did [00:35:10] clean out most of their savings account. And I remember very specifically, I [00:35:15] remember specifically having the sit down at the kitchen table with my mum and dad. My dad [00:35:20] asked me how much it was and I said 75 grand over three years. Mum, I think fell off [00:35:25] the chair at the end of the table. But dad with a bunch of background in banking was [00:35:30] like, right, well, if something costs 75 grand, what’s the what’s the um what’s the [00:35:35] payout? You know, what’s the what’s the return on investment. What’s the what’s your salary going to be when you finish. [00:35:40] And I obviously had no idea. So I. I came up with a number. [00:35:45] Um, that was huge. He kind of looked at me and was like, okay, [00:35:50] we can do it. And I sort of inside was like, oh, Jesus. So anyway, when [00:35:55] Full Circle did the program and when I bought the practice, my dad was my age [00:36:00] and still is my financial director, and we had the end of year one directors [00:36:05] meeting to discuss how things had gone. And it was an emotional enough [00:36:10] moment when dad put the hand across the table and, and put his hand out and said, um, congratulations. [00:36:15] And I said, oh, what’s that for? And he said, do you remember sitting at the kitchen table and [00:36:20] you told me the number that you thought you’d make when you finish this program? And [00:36:25] I said, oh, yeah. And he’s like, well, well done. You did it. And he said, I knew you were bullshitting me, [00:36:30] but you did it. And it was a full circle moment. And you [00:36:35] know.

Payman Langroudi: How many years in was.

Payman Langroudi: That first year?

Rory Boyd: It was first year, yeah. We had a [00:36:40] bumper with a bumper start, but yeah. So so the finance thing is difficult. I was very lucky. Uh, my parents, [00:36:45] my parents funded it, but I also got funded research, which is like hen’s teeth. [00:36:50] So I had a piece of research on a night appliance [00:36:55] called the Smart splint, which measured bruxism. So it effectively covered my fee second [00:37:00] and third year. So it was just living costs and doubling rent, which, which was really needed needed [00:37:05] to be covered. But it’s extremely difficult. And those fees have only gone up. And that’s one of the reasons [00:37:10] why I think there’s a lot more people who spend a couple of years in practice saving up, um, because it is difficult. And unfortunately, [00:37:15] the banks aren’t, aren’t willing to, to lend to that sector, even though I think that’s [00:37:20] madness because, yeah, you know, you’re effectively hopefully a good bet if you’ve got into that program. [00:37:25]

Payman Langroudi: How long after you qualified from the program did you start or buy [00:37:30] the practice?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rory Boyd: So, uh, spin off, um, [00:37:35] I had big plans to do because I think we discussed this, but because I was the youngest at the [00:37:40] time, I was the youngest qualifying post-grad here. I’ve kind of felt I should do [00:37:45] something weird and wonderful with with with my time. I had no wife, I had no kids, I had no [00:37:50] dependents, or I didn’t have a mortgage. I was, I was I remember [00:37:55] going in to get the funding for the practice and, uh, the [00:38:00] bank manager at the time asked me, did I have any, um, asset collateral? [00:38:05] And the only thing I could think of was my golf clubs and my watch. So at that stage, I didn’t have an [00:38:10] awful lot, so I was I planned to do this for a maverick. Um, I wanted to go to I said [00:38:15] it, most of it up at the time. I wanted to go to Europe and the States, and I was going to work a month [00:38:20] with each with different, you know, famous individuals or who I felt were famous in the prosthodontic [00:38:25] and implant world and just go for a year’s experience and kind of travel, um, [00:38:30] and learn some really cool dentistry along the way. Because I’d really enjoyed my time at UCLA, and I kind of felt, [00:38:35] you know, I’d learned a lot from that, um, just how different people work, how different [00:38:40] industries work in different countries and, and how, you know, there’s there’s not just one way to do [00:38:45] everything.

Rory Boyd: And in fact, the prosthodontics is probably 10 or 15. But. So I had that all kind of planned out. And then [00:38:50] one of my professors came to me and, and who had helped me organise this, um, doctor Jerry Cleary, [00:38:55] and he just sat me down and said, Rory, unfortunately, that’s not going to happen. Okay. [00:39:00] Uh, something happened. And he said, no, there is a very eminent [00:39:05] colleague that is is retiring. And he asked me, could I think of anyone [00:39:10] that was eligible or appropriate to take on his practice? And Doctor [00:39:15] Billy Davis was the, the the dentist that I took over from. And he was the second ever [00:39:20] board certified um prosthodontist in Europe and it was a lady in Norway was the first. Um, [00:39:25] so it was a long standing, you know, very famous practice in Ireland. And he [00:39:30] just said, look, these don’t come up very often. In fact, this, this, this particular practice would never [00:39:35] come. You know, this is a once in a career practice that that’ll be available to take on. So [00:39:40] I sort of like a rabbit in the headlights. And yes, I kind of, most of my career, you know, too [00:39:45] young to to understand really what you’re going through at the time.

Rory Boyd: So I kind of said, well, I don’t know how to [00:39:50] I wouldn’t know one where to start with, with, with managing a practice. [00:39:55] I mean, remember, I’d only worked in an NHS practice in West Belfast for [00:40:00] a year here, so I don’t have a lot of practice experience. And that was, you know, with all due respect. [00:40:05] And I love that year and it was brilliant practice, great fun. And Pierce Stinson, the principal, was was [00:40:10] a brilliant mentor. But in practice, ownership and, uh, you know, acquisition. [00:40:15] I certainly didn’t have a breadth of experience. So my professor [00:40:20] supervisor at the time, Gerry, just said, well, don’t worry about that. I’ll sort that out. All [00:40:25] right. Okay. So he said, just go for a meeting with Billy and, you know, [00:40:30] see what, see what the numbers are and if you what you feel and whatever. So I met with him and he’s, he’s [00:40:35] a, he’s a legend of a gentleman. Just, just just a really soft touch, soft approach [00:40:40] and beautiful human being. Met him. I was just like, yeah, this is it. This is, this is, this is going to this [00:40:45] is the practice for me. And we discussed numbers and I remember going, Gerry said, look, once you’ve had that [00:40:50] conversation, come and meet me.

Rory Boyd: We’ll have a glass of wine and let’s discuss it. So [00:40:55] we did that, discussed it. And you know, Gerry and Term basically said, look, when I was your age, [00:41:00] there was a dentist in Dublin called called Colin O’Sullivan, who basically did the same thing for him, [00:41:05] that Gerry came back from the States. He studied in Indiana, and he came back kind of fresh off the boat [00:41:10] and call him, kind of took him under the wing and said, right, you’re going to buy my practice and I’m going [00:41:15] to help you up, up the ladder. And with regards to costs and finance and and you’re going to pick somebody [00:41:20] at the end of your career. So Gerry said, then that’s what I’m doing now. So I’m going to help you out. I’m [00:41:25] going to get you on your feet. And you’re only promise. Well, he kind of give me two promises. One was that [00:41:30] I give everything to the Ida and got heavily involved in that, and two was that I did the same for for someone [00:41:35] that I felt appropriate at the end of my career to make sure I helped somebody to to [00:41:40] the line and practice and get somebody, you know, pull them up with help, mentorship and [00:41:45] some finance. Um, so yeah, it’s an incredible, incredible [00:41:50] way to get started. What a.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: Story that.

Payman Langroudi: Is, man. And yeah it’s.

Rory Boyd: Great. And [00:41:55] look, I don’t know how many times and how many stages that I’ve [00:42:00] said. Everything in my career is due to the mentors that I’ve had and Gerry being, you know, probably [00:42:05] the number one with regards to practice. But it’s those, it’s those and those are what I [00:42:10] call educators, you know, and look what Gerry did for me and got me a practice going is different. That’s brilliant. [00:42:15] And I’m really looking forward to being able to do that for someone else. But it’s those mentors [00:42:20] that surround you and you know, that mould you as a, as a clinician and. And, [00:42:25] you know, an academic and as an educator, those are those are the those are the educators. [00:42:30] Those are what I’m trying to live up to their who I have the most respect for. And, you know, you [00:42:35] see all these dentists or, you know, see all these centres all over Instagram and all over, you know, go to conferences [00:42:40] and they’re waxing, you know, I have grateful respect for them and they’re great clinicians. But it’s the guys that actually [00:42:45] shape younger dentists and actually give up their time. You know, you look at [00:42:50] the supervisors and the educators that are giving up their time because they do not get paid well, being one of them at [00:42:55] this point. You know, I teach in the dental school one afternoon a week. I think what I get for it probably covers my parking. [00:43:00]

Rory Boyd: Um, and that’s about it. Um, so I understand that. And those [00:43:05] guys have, you know, given up their time and their and their expertise because they, they feel a privilege [00:43:10] to have the expertise. And it’s even more of a privilege to be able to pass them on. And those [00:43:15] are the dentists that I have the most respect for is the educators, because [00:43:20] you can go out into practice and you can make all the money in the world. You can have the, you know, the, [00:43:25] the champagne life. And but to give up your time is [00:43:30] probably the most expensive thing. Um, but on the flip side, I also understand why [00:43:35] they do it. Because the kudos or the feeling you get when you see somebody over a three, four, six, [00:43:40] 12 month period and develop is why they do it, and it’s why I do it. And [00:43:45] they are the dentists that I have to just Uber respect for. And they’re the ones that, you [00:43:50] know, I’m trying to learn to get better at with regards to education and [00:43:55] understanding how to try and simplify, um, things because you forget, [00:44:00] I mean, when you when you first go back to teach and you’ve got fifth years, you think when you were in fifth year, you were, you [00:44:05] know, shooting bazookas, you were you were.

Payman Langroudi: You were you were.

Rory Boyd: You were nothing. You could no [00:44:10] tooth could not be saved. You know, everything was favourable and you could take on any film [00:44:15] or rehab and you thought you were. But actually, looking back now, you realise how inexperienced [00:44:20] I’ll put it, that you were at the time. And, and I, you know, I take a group of fifth years now and. Yes, [00:44:25] look, there’s there’s still lots of experience to go and you know, but God that’s you know, dental [00:44:30] school is the start, not the finish. But we forget where we were at when we [00:44:35] were in fifth year. Until you go back and teach them and you go, oh gosh, that’s where we’re at. And we’ve got a bit to go here. But when you see [00:44:40] them develop over however long you have that group for, that’s the that’s [00:44:45] the payment, that’s the excitement. That’s that’s the buzz for me. That’s the same as, you know, [00:44:50] for my rehab fit day. That’s why you do it. And for no other reason than [00:44:55] the satisfaction that you get out of passing on the knowledge that you had the privilege to get in the first place.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:45:00] know, also, education and educators come in all [00:45:05] shapes and sizes these days, right? Yeah. But but Jaz Gulati, I don’t know [00:45:10] if you’ve come across his podcast, right.

Rory Boyd: Yeah. Yeah, briefly I have we actually we asked him to speak at the [00:45:15] Ida last year. So yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He’s I don’t know, he’s 7 or 8 years out of dental [00:45:20] school and I’d say he’s one of the top educators in the country. Yeah. Yeah. And [00:45:25] it’s a whole different form of education. It’s not it’s not you know, it’s a podcast. You [00:45:30] know, I’ve stopped practising 12 years ago and I still listen to his podcast [00:45:35] on snoring or something. Yeah. Because he just he just makes it interesting and kind of answers [00:45:40] the questions in your head.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rory Boyd: And it’s the ability to mimic exactly the way he does it. It’s the ability [00:45:45] to make something so boring, so interesting at times. I mean, you think [00:45:50] of even I know I still get a buzz out of material science, but some stuff can get really heavy and and fairly [00:45:55] boring. And I also think, you know, if you look at the who I, on an international level, look [00:46:00] up to and have a really good relationship with, you know, to simplify things as Marcus Platz, if anybody doesn’t [00:46:05] follow Marcus Platz Instagram, he has the ability to make especially [00:46:10] generally fixed posts so simple and just makes, you know, 2 or 3 variations [00:46:15] of every single thing. Just simplify it, simplify, simplify. And that’s something I very much try and take into my [00:46:20] education or teaching or whatever, is to try and simplify [00:46:25] things, because at times you get every Tom, Dick and Harry is trying to make their own method their own way and [00:46:30] they’ll name it after, you know, this is the the Boyd method or whatever it may be. Right? But [00:46:35] the really good educators just simplify it down. They don’t make more more issues, more [00:46:40] confusion. They actually simplify it down and go, right. These are the these are the three best ways. And these are these are the [00:46:45] indications for each one done. Move on next one.

Rory Boyd: And I find that, you know, I find from an education point of [00:46:50] view is the ability to simplify. Yes. To make it exciting and enjoyable. Case number one. But to [00:46:55] simplify things down, especially in process, you know, there’s so many different [00:47:00] variations and methods and different birds and different concepts and different materials [00:47:05] and different cements and different, you know, and, you know, it’s it’s somebody [00:47:10] who’s, you know, Marcus Blass, I find it fascinating person because he’s to start with [00:47:15] extremely smart and a serious academic. You know, if you look at the papers he’s [00:47:20] published, the academia is where he came from. But the education. Asian. [00:47:25] The the educator then came second. And he’s right there in pen [00:47:30] and like the work. I don’t know how many hours because he is a brilliant surfer. He is brilliant [00:47:35] at drums and I don’t because he travels the world educating everyone else [00:47:40] outside of his own university. He also then has his own postgraduate and undergraduate systems. [00:47:45] And if you’ve ever been to the university, it’s one of the most incredible outfits. And how [00:47:50] he has the time, because if you follow on Instagram, he seems to be in a different country every week. [00:47:55] And when he comes, when he comes to your country and when you go and see him speak, [00:48:00] because I hope everyone gets the opportunity to. He has so much energy and makes you feel as if you’re the only [00:48:05] person in the room.

Rory Boyd: Every time he speaks and I find it, I find him. I find like we [00:48:10] we I find him really fascinating. I the pleasure to drive him from Dublin, Dublin to Galway. [00:48:15] We I picked him up and he went over and spoke for us, the Irish Dental Association, a number of years ago, [00:48:20] and I picked him up and he just got off the overnight flight from, from New York. And [00:48:25] I think I must it must be 9:00 in the morning. He’d been up all night. He jumped in my car and [00:48:30] we drove Dublin to Galway, probably two and a half, three hours, 2.5 hours. And [00:48:35] the radio didn’t go on once we just talked. We’d met once before in Chicago [00:48:40] at an event, and that’s why I’d asked him to come over. And we just talked industry the whole way to Galway, and we [00:48:45] kind of got to Galway and I was like, how’s your battery level? You, you, you’re tired. And he [00:48:50] and he said, no, no, I’m good, I’m good. I was like, well, do you want to go on to Connemara? Because I’m enjoying this conversation so much and [00:48:55] go and get more out of you here. So we then took off. I took him down to Connemara. We had lunch in Ballynahinch Castle, [00:49:00] Connemara.

Rory Boyd: For anyone who hasn’t been. It’s just like. Disneyland for people who like landscapes. [00:49:05] Um, and Marcus just put his phone and record set up in the front of the car and recorded [00:49:10] the whole drive down through up to Ballynahinch Castle. We launched and we came back and he got out of the car and he said that was [00:49:15] one of the best drives I’ve ever had. And I was like, it definitely wasn’t my conversation. It was definitely more the landscape. [00:49:20] Um, but yeah, we have a good relationship. I find him one of the most [00:49:25] fascinating human beings, just because he is he’s the most the most intelligent [00:49:30] person I think I’ve ever met, especially in a Dental. And, you know, within dentistry and the [00:49:35] ability for him to simplify, simplify things and educate them is incredible. Never mind is [00:49:40] his other hobbies and bits and pieces. I just don’t see how. Because, you know, I try my best to have all the time in the world as [00:49:45] well. But he has. He’s some sort of teleporting device or something, I think, because, [00:49:50] you know, he’s in different countries every week with the same energy and the same buzz and, you know, [00:49:55] and never mind all of the research output that he still does, all the education stuff he still does [00:50:00] in Japan. And yeah, incredible.

Payman Langroudi: You know, [00:50:05] that that thing about a lot of times simplicity comes from deep understanding. [00:50:10] Yeah. You know, because you say, I mean, kind of you were [00:50:15] alluding to all right. The three ways of doing this, the three ways to bring it down to [00:50:20] three succinct things. You need a deep understanding. The other thing I the [00:50:25] older I get, the more I realise. I mean, you probably know this already, but being an expert [00:50:30] at something. It comes down to just doing the basics, correct? Yeah. [00:50:35] That’s it. That’s the whole.

Payman Langroudi: Thing.

Rory Boyd: And it’s playing [00:50:40] by the rules that you know.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Not not shortcuts.

Payman Langroudi: No shortcuts.

Rory Boyd: And [00:50:45] and if there isn’t enough for all, there isn’t enough for all okay. You know. Yeah. You know, [00:50:50] and I, you know, I often get it when, especially in the dental school, someone comes over. Oh, well, [00:50:55] can I, can I do the root canal treatment on this tooth? You know that tooth that’s a retained [00:51:00] root, in my opinion. That’s not a. Yeah, but you know, but I can still do the root canal. It’s like. Yeah, right. It’s [00:51:05] playing by the rules. Yeah. It’s like 100% basics. And knowing your own limits [00:51:10] and just doing the basics right. And again, it comes back to for me it’s [00:51:15] assessment and planning, you know, cutting a crown or executing a veneer or [00:51:20] doing a good composite bond up or posting core crowns and over [00:51:25] feeding them out. But you know, if you can assess properly and pick the case and pick the easy one, pick the best way to [00:51:30] do it. Executing the treatment is easy. Picking the right time to do it is the tricky bit [00:51:35] and that’s the basics. It’s understanding good diagnosis, good planning. And then [00:51:40] once you have your problem list, I don’t start any treatment. Won’t touch the patient with any burr until you have your [00:51:45] list of treatments that you you know I’m going tip tip tip I just got my it’s like cooking and I [00:51:50] like I make my recipe and I write out the recipe before I start and I just go through one, [00:51:55] two, three.

Rory Boyd: And that is just pure assessment and planning. But if you do not have that, [00:52:00] you don’t have the vehicle to get to success. You can’t go through a treatment without having it [00:52:05] absolutely planned to the nth degree beforehand. And and you know, don’t get [00:52:10] me wrong, some stuff may change along the the treatment. You know, some of our patients are three, five years [00:52:15] long. Um, some stuff changes. Ortho can’t achieve what you thought they could or, [00:52:20] you know, think teeth fail in the interim things change. But but it’s assessment and planning and and that is the basics [00:52:25] and it’s success. You know, what you’re doing is diagnosing problems [00:52:30] and setting the dentistry rules of what I can and can’t do against that. That’s it. Everything [00:52:35] else is, you know, that’s that’s as complicated as it needs to be. And I also [00:52:40] think the best the experts are the best philosophy of the best treatment [00:52:45] philosophy is I need to do as little dentistry as physically possible [00:52:50] to get to the desired outcome. And a lot of times we can overengineer and we’re using dentistry, [00:52:55] you know, different dentistry to cut corners, taking teeth out and putting implants in where we maybe we [00:53:00] should hold on to them is the least amount of dentistry somebody has in their mouth.

Rory Boyd: And the more amount of [00:53:05] their beautiful, healthy, natural teeth they have in their mouth. For me, that’s successful dentistry, [00:53:10] and that might be slightly against the grain for somebody to think, oh, well, he’s a prosthodontist. And [00:53:15] he, you know, specialises in treating porcelain deficiencies. And um, [00:53:20] but for me the the best treatment plan is the smallest one to, [00:53:25] to achieve the desired outcome and not overengineer it. Keeping it simple, keeping it basic [00:53:30] and just really meticulous assessment and planning I think [00:53:35] and I think I think as you said, you know, experts are you know, to [00:53:40] simplify something, you need to know a lot. And I appreciate that. And I think that is fair enough, you know, to to apply [00:53:45] the correct system to a problem, um, to or to an input if you, you know, if [00:53:50] we go back to systems and input process output, you know, to apply the best process [00:53:55] to whatever the input is to achieve the desired outcome does take a breadth of knowledge [00:54:00] or experience. And it’s interesting. I was listening to your I’m trying to remember who it was, but one of your [00:54:05] other guests that you had on and you were talking about experience and you couldn’t buy it and experience you have to [00:54:10] go through and that you have to make mistakes to, to develop.

Rory Boyd: I [00:54:15] agree with that to a point. Where I disagree with that is that you can’t buy experience to [00:54:20] to a point, uh, and that’s education, because the difference, you know, and the difference [00:54:25] between postgraduate and undergraduate education for me is that undergraduate education is [00:54:30] based on textbooks and it’s based on these are the rules. And this is the way postgraduate [00:54:35] education is based on research. I’m learning of somebody else’s experience. So [00:54:40] if I follow the rules of the research or the guidelines or, [00:54:45] or that I’m actually using somebody else’s experience and adding it [00:54:50] to my own without having to actually do it right? Don’t get me wrong, that doesn’t there’s there’s nothing that [00:54:55] will, you know, teach you how to do a crime, prep better, you know, change your crime preps from [00:55:00] 12 degrees to six degrees of taper. You know, that is you need hands on experience. But [00:55:05] for people out there that that think that they can just start tackling any [00:55:10] case and put it down to experience if it goes wrong, is is where I [00:55:15] and I, that’s where I, I’m, I’m an academic. I, I enjoy the education, I enjoy [00:55:20] the postgraduate thing. And I think what you do and effectively what you’re doing in [00:55:25] three years of a postgraduate is accelerating the ability to do what you could do if [00:55:30] you didn’t know.

Rory Boyd: Not everyone has to do a. To get there. There’s plenty of ways to skin a cat, and if you want to do your high level [00:55:35] portion ceramic work, you don’t need to be a prosthodontist. It might take you 15, 20 years or whatever [00:55:40] of different weekend courses and different bits to add to your to your to your, you know, [00:55:45] strings to add to your bow. But what you’re doing by doing a postgrad is buying the experience of everyone [00:55:50] before you, because that’s where you’re going to learn the classic literature, the modern literature. And [00:55:55] then you put that together with your own outlook and overview on, on on things and where that fits into [00:56:00] your own practice. And that’s the, that’s the difference. And, and for me [00:56:05] then, then yes, you still need the experience of, of, you know, cutting crowns and talking to patients [00:56:10] and all of that. But I think education is, you know, with regards to experience, [00:56:15] just when I, when I was listening to that, I was like, can buy a little bit, but don’t get me wrong, you [00:56:20] know, and you still need experience of things going wrong, that it happens to all of us. [00:56:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which brings us nicely onto I think. I think, you know, the reason I said that was because I asked the lady [00:56:30] about mistakes and she she was stuttering. And then I wanted to sort [00:56:35] of, sort of frame it in the experience, uh, bucket. But but, but [00:56:40] I, I take on what you say completely. Let’s, let’s move on to the darker [00:56:45] side of this port. Errors, mistakes, [00:56:50] clinical mistakes in the light of, you know, the black box thinking [00:56:55] plane goes down, they figure out what went wrong. Not not [00:57:00] who’s to blame. And then they put it out for the whole community to to learn from [00:57:05] that mistake. Yeah, it would be lovely if Ireland’s top prosthodontist [00:57:10] could hit us with some mistakes.

Rory Boyd: Can I have a look under the curtain? Yeah. [00:57:15] Look, I mean, mistakes happen, everyone. And I’ve always funny. I’ve always said, you know, the best speakers are the ones [00:57:20] that get up and they give a presentation on everything that went wrong in their career. And they’ve got so much you [00:57:25] kind of think you look up to them. Oh, how much confidence they have to to show that it’s still difficult to [00:57:30] go through mistakes and but yeah, it’s 100% you know, that’s that’s one of the reasons we you know, we [00:57:35] would encourage certainly when I’m teaching is to take photographs of everything because you don’t you you [00:57:40] get more out of case analysis and retrospective analysis of your cases than you do out of anything else. [00:57:45] And it’s another one of the reasons why I think digital dentistry and scanners [00:57:50] are improving everybody’s preparation design tenfold. Because [00:57:55] when you blow your I’ve a curve like in my practice, I have a curve, I don’t know, 42 [00:58:00] inch screen or something connected to my, um, my scanner. So my preps [00:58:05] are now like a foot and a half wide when I’m looking at them. And that retrospective [00:58:10] analysis will make you go back and re prep every one that you do and repolish [00:58:15] and re and make sure you’ve actually smoothed out margins. So, so retrospective analysis is obviously I [00:58:20] think super key start off in my career. Biggest mistake I was working in Belfast [00:58:25] and this is just time management is the is what this should be titled. As I was working in an [00:58:30] NHS practice in West Belfast and you know, it was very much, [00:58:35] you know, look as, as we know them, it’s fee per item in Belfast, very different to the UDA [00:58:40] system.

Rory Boyd: And in England it was certainly at the time. But you’re trying to do we were trying trying [00:58:45] to you know, you weren’t, you weren’t getting paid an awful lot for it. We were trying to push the push the boundaries and the time management. [00:58:50] And I remember unfortunately this patient needed IV sedation as well. So that kind of brought [00:58:55] you down to 45 odd minutes of whatever of decent sedation. So we [00:59:00] had our data and my plan was to do a multi root canal treatment on a lower six. This is granted 16 [00:59:05] months out of college. I was doing a lower rate six multi Indo [00:59:10] post and core prep impression temporary [00:59:15] uh in 45 minutes. So this is where [00:59:20] I, you know this is where I’ll go back to the, you know, not knowing your limits. And time management was definitely not at [00:59:25] its best at this point in time. Granted, it was the guts of whatever 15 years ago. [00:59:30] So anyway, I’m working away with the the, um, [00:59:35] the Ando and I’m struggling. You know, I’m not really. I’m not really finding [00:59:40] that. Never mind the distal canal. I’m not finding the two major ones either. So anyway, [00:59:45] I end up, you know, getting through their gates, getting a bit of pressure. I got through it. We [00:59:50] were using thermal fill at the time, so there wasn’t. I was using an apex locator, which gave [00:59:55] me slightly weird readings, but I could get pretty consistent with the readings.

Rory Boyd: And [01:00:00] anyway, I took my post-op after my my after my post was placed and after [01:00:05] my core was placed, I took my post-op x ray and realised both medial observations [01:00:10] were perfectly to length, but unfortunately not inside the tooth. And [01:00:15] I perforated both of them. Um, yeah. No, actually they were right in [01:00:20] the trabecular bone. They were, I mean, length wise, bang on. But, uh, they were not, not in the right [01:00:25] spot. And to be fair, to this day, it’s still the worst thing I’ve ever done in the dental chair. And, um, I have the X-ray [01:00:30] of it, I show it. Lectures often said, look, things can go wrong and can happen. [01:00:35] And this is what happens when time management was an issue. I was inexperienced, I [01:00:40] was trying to do too much in one session. We ended up repairing the perforations [01:00:45] and the tooth to well, I don’t know. It’s a long time ago, but [01:00:50] certainly five five years post-operatively the tooth was still there. So there is, there is a there is a positive [01:00:55] end to that story, but I just remember it so clearly. It was the first time I’d made a big mistake. [01:01:00] Uh, or. Well, you know, I was, uh, same mistake. I’d perforated a tooth and I hadn’t taken a working length radiograph, [01:01:05] and it was the first time I felt that gut feeling of. Was my technique. Right enough. [01:01:10] Did I leave enough time? And I could see holes in my planning for even [01:01:15] such a small case. But I could see holes in my time.

Rory Boyd: Management was poor. I was I was [01:01:20] being a bit gung ho. That should have been separated in a different, you know, different appointments. But it was [01:01:25] the first ever case that rocked me. It was the first one that made me feel a bit, oh, I used to I [01:01:30] thought I was good at this. And, you know, until that happens, I think, you know, I think it’s [01:01:35] obviously not important that if that happens, if there’s a negative outcome for a patient, you know, that goes without being said. [01:01:40] But it’s important that you do have either near misses or [01:01:45] issues that you that you that you see, that you appreciate, you understand, and you then realise [01:01:50] you have to make a change in how you execute, whatever it may be. The other one, [01:01:55] I’ll so that was kind of the the start of my undergraduate or my, my, my general [01:02:00] dentistry career. The other one I’ll use, which hurts me a little [01:02:05] bit more is, is, is, is. And the advice on this one is, no, no, your [01:02:10] new lab would be that I would title this one. And I had done a [01:02:15] veneer case and I was using a fancy new lab, um, based [01:02:20] internationally. And they came back and this [01:02:25] again would be relatively close to the start of my prosthodontic career. And I’d never used [01:02:30] the lab before, and I’d always used labs that preached [01:02:35] the veneers. This lab, I for some reason [01:02:40] presumed they preached the veneers and therefore I only just did a washout [01:02:45] etch with with phosphoric. I didn’t use ferric acid on them, so thinking [01:02:50] that they were pre etched and I fitted the veneers and they were beautiful.

Rory Boyd: They were they. [01:02:55] I still have photographs of them saying that they’re some of the finest ceramic work. They’re beautifully done. Beautiful [01:03:00] feldspathic hand stack. You know, whatever they were, they were they were just [01:03:05] the bee’s knees. I was delighted with myself. And the patient came [01:03:10] back, I’d say with the first one D bonded six months later, which I was actually quite surprised that [01:03:15] it would that that it would stay on for that long. And initially I was like, gosh, that’s very strange. [01:03:20] And, you know, really wouldn’t expect that. And fine, we [01:03:25] we were actually able to re cement that one. And then about a month later the next one went, [01:03:30] I was like, oh my God, what on earth is I racked my brains. What is going wrong here? You [01:03:35] know, they were I they were cemented under isolation. We’ve gone through the whole, you know, everything [01:03:40] was cracked and then it twigged. It dawned on me. So I phoned the technician and thankfully [01:03:45] I hadn’t done a lot of cases with him because it took six months to come back and work. Right. [01:03:50] I said, just a quick question. The veneers that we did there six months ago, they [01:03:55] for some reason they’re de-bonding and they’re not de-bonding under, you know, it’s not a bruxism issue or [01:04:00] whatever. But anyway, we got to the bottom of it. They weren’t etched. So I had fitted the set [01:04:05] of six anterior veneers as a specialist prosthodontist that were not etched.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:04:10] labs what what did you do.

Payman Langroudi: Get the patient in.

Payman Langroudi: And.

Rory Boyd: Did them all again? [01:04:15] Um, and thankfully she was a wonderful patient and you [01:04:20] know, and she was happy to get them redone. That could have been very different. [01:04:25] Um, as you can imagine, you know, the three hour session that that I would take off to do that. Uh, [01:04:30] and the three, you know, the second three hour fit that she, I’m sure didn’t love and enjoy. So thankfully [01:04:35] communication was, well, good.

Payman Langroudi: But I just, you know, that both of those were really good. Good, [01:04:40] good good ones. Yeah. Because you can learn something from both of those. But I kind of want one that went [01:04:45] badly because both of those went really well. You want a bad one? Yeah. Like you’re most likely. Think of it this [01:04:50] way. Your most difficult patient.

Rory Boyd: Yeah. I’ll [01:04:55] be honest with you. I’m lucky enough. And I think actually, when we’re [01:05:00] discussing difficulties, I actually think the biggest thing that you need to learn when you’re having a difficult [01:05:05] or, I suppose, miscommunication or difficult, I think communication with a patient [01:05:10] after any difficult case is key. It gets you out of trouble, and if you can communicate [01:05:15] with the patient and explain to them why, you know, an [01:05:20] issue has arisen or problems, that the communication with the patient is key. So when you ask me, tell [01:05:25] me about a patient that went horribly wrong or your worst patient or you know, anyone that sued you or [01:05:30] issues like that, I don’t have many, I have some, I [01:05:35] have some, you know, I don’t have many that that have turned that have been a lasting problem. I [01:05:40] have certainly let me think now.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:05:45] mean, okay, another way of looking at it, but if you want is, you know, you’re [01:05:50] in digital. And in digital, it’s still very much [01:05:55] sort of in the evolutionary phase. So, you know, one one [01:06:00] way of looking at obviously the etching issue that was that was an error, communication error, [01:06:05] I guess. But with digital, you must have had moments right where you tried tried something and it didn’t [01:06:10] work. I mean, how can you how can you be at the forefront of that.

Payman Langroudi: Without full charge?

Rory Boyd: So [01:06:15] as you said, when you’re when you’re when you’re learning, I first started, I did the, the [01:06:20] three ship course when I was in UCLA and that would have been. 2013? [01:06:25] Maybe. So. I’m like ten years using three [01:06:30] ships. Uh, and formlabs. Um, but there are different [01:06:35] iterations and. Yeah, 100%. Okay, so let’s open up the closet of the digital [01:06:40] tries and fails. Um, first, first ever digital workshop that took [01:06:45] me, I think, about 36 hours sitting at the table at, uh, over total. [01:06:50] Um, I was doing it with a Dental designer with three ship, and the thing crashed every [01:06:55] time you did. Maybe six teeth crash. Next one start again. Not nearly [01:07:00] nearly never. I nearly never went back to digital again. That was that was it. I think the big ones [01:07:05] that clinically was full arch implant, 3D printed. Um, [01:07:10] uh, yeah. I mean, all of them broke. And [01:07:15] look, I know the materials have got a little better, but they still break. Okay. [01:07:20] And look, milled acrylic breaks. So printed acrylics definitely got a break. Um, just the impact resistance. [01:07:25] And the fracture toughness isn’t good enough. And the other one that will really, for anybody out there that’ll really [01:07:30] kill them is, uh, just milled or 3D printed templates [01:07:35] because there are two when you try and put it on a tie base, the the neck [01:07:40] of the whether it’s acrylic or, um, printed materials, it’s too [01:07:45] thin. So it fractures off the tie base. So the amount of times [01:07:50] that I thought I was saving money and I was doing it, really, I was being really cool and I was, I was getting [01:07:55] I was, I was 3D printing teeth before because I was using basically I would use the denture teeth.

Rory Boyd: Um, [01:08:00] when they were first marked, they had a crown and Formlabs had a crown and an original crown [01:08:05] and bridge material, but actually the denture teeth material I found a little bit better, a little bit more fracture toughness [01:08:10] to it. And the 3D printed that. And then, you know, you put it and I dined [01:08:15] out in lectures of doing that. And oh, it was the new tooth coloured printable material that was CE marked [01:08:20] at the time. I didn’t at that point have that every single one of them fractured [01:08:25] because I didn’t have the longevity evidence. I was like 30 [01:08:30] and I’d been using, you know, this material come out six months. It didn’t have any evidence. And [01:08:35] the. Yeah. So I mean, then we learned that we need new materials and it’s interesting. And like, [01:08:40] I’ve worked with Formlabs for a long time. If you look at the hard acrylic, which is called Dental [01:08:45] light, if you look at their acrylic material, I don’t know how many hundred [01:08:50] night guards I’ve made with light version one, but I would say I’ve probably had about, [01:08:55] I’d say 90 fractures probably over the time. And it was interesting. [01:09:00] I always asked the question, did it? And I should fair. I should have done some evidence on it because [01:09:05] we I make a lot of night appearances. You’ve got a lot of ceramic work in there that needs insurance [01:09:10] policies over them. So that’s your night guard. Um, and yeah, I’d say I’d [01:09:15] say I’m probably 90 fractures, probably.

Rory Boyd: But when you always ask the patient, how did it, you know, did it break and function and oh, [01:09:20] you know, you kind of looked a bit shocked. No, no. It’s when they dropped it in the sink when they were washing it. And it was always [01:09:25] when they dropped it in the sink. And it just didn’t have the impact resistance. It didn’t have the [01:09:30] durability and fracture toughness of of that. And interestingly enough, Formlabs got fed that information [01:09:35] back and said, look, these are breaking all the time. And if you look when they they then went back re-engineered [01:09:40] and brought out V2, the version two of it haven’t had one fracture. And it’s a really good evidence [01:09:45] of seeing in a very short space of time. And if you look at 3D printing in total, it’s [01:09:50] a really good a really good evidence. If you look at the evolution of the materials, the printing hasn’t really changed. [01:09:55] You can still use like Formlabs just brought out their new one, but you can still use a form two, [01:10:00] right? Which is, which is uh, by modern standards are relic. [01:10:05] You know, it’s a classic printer. You can still use that with new [01:10:10] materials and still works fine. That’s I mean, that’s in print. I still have a form two. It’s just in the corner. And if I [01:10:15] need multiple materials for tomorrow, so I’ll throw it on. It still prints prints pretty good. And [01:10:20] you know, you can use the modern materials in a printer that was bought for three and a half grand. [01:10:25] I got that seven years ago. The technology changes slightly. And yeah, if you want to get into [01:10:30] difference between, you know, SLA printing and and DLP or [01:10:35] LCD versus, you know, that’s fine.

Rory Boyd: We can get into that detail no problem. But the [01:10:40] hardware and the printers hasn’t changed. The materials have, [01:10:45] because when we went through the evolution or the or the the kind of that first [01:10:50] use or issue of everything breaking and everything going haywire [01:10:55] and not having your settings correct. And when you when we first went to print the crown and bridge material, there were way [01:11:00] too tight in the dies. We needed to create more, more leeway in the cement [01:11:05] space or whatever you want to call it, drill offset if it was in a mill. But yeah, and [01:11:10] the biggest one with regards to patience was breaking temporaries and breaking night guards. And [01:11:15] those and you know, those are the two big changes, I think certainly in the materials science [01:11:20] was the everything that came out of a printer was brittle. Um, and. Due to [01:11:25] the process of how the was being cured, photopolymers and the polymerisation [01:11:30] of it just couldn’t create a durable fracture toughness, so they had to put atoms into it. But [01:11:35] that’s just a perfect example of being the first adopter. Or I’m not going to say I [01:11:40] was the first, you know, being one of the early adopters of something. And it’s why someone says, oh, yeah, always [01:11:45] use it. Second, you know, because you’re the first guy. It’s gonna work out, you know, when it goes wrong. But unfortunately, we [01:11:50] need some guys to use it first to further work out what’s going on. So with the digital [01:11:55] side.

Payman Langroudi: Look, it’s a funny. It’s a funny.

Payman Langroudi: Dance, isn’t it? Yeah, it’s a funny dance because I had Professor [01:12:00] Banerjee on a couple of weeks ago, and he was saying 17 years from [01:12:05] initial paper to general usage of stuff, 17 [01:12:10] years, you can’t be at the forefront and wait 17 years before you can. Yeah. [01:12:15]

Payman Langroudi: And so it’s.

Rory Boyd: That’s the same as when a patient asks me how long does an implant last? And you’re like, oh, you know, [01:12:20] you know, we I’ve actually come around to saying, actually, I have no idea. And they [01:12:25] kind of they kind of like stand up and say, well, if somebody says they know how long it’s last, they they don’t know enough, [01:12:30] because the more the more the more research you read and the more literature you read. We [01:12:35] realise that implants have their issues. They’re not the golden bullet that we hoped and wanted. They’re definitely [01:12:40] the gold standard for any tooth repair and replacement. But but we also need to [01:12:45] be aware that the research that we’re reading around implants now were implants that were designed [01:12:50] 20 years ago. So they’re not the same fixture that we’re placing now. [01:12:55] If you look at all the early research that tells us, you know, absolutely what the type two implant [01:13:00] for me is still possibly, from my experience, the best implant, because it’s the one you’re [01:13:05] seeing lasting the longest. You know, and, you know, if we’re thinking if we’re placing implants in 20 and 30 [01:13:10] year olds, we’re expecting to get an 80 year lifespan out of them. Hopefully. [01:13:15] All right. Well, certainly hopefully some of them will.

Rory Boyd: Um, but if we look at the the best evidence [01:13:20] we have on longevity, especially the early stuff, um, you know, peri implantitis and these [01:13:25] things are probably something we made with, with moving away from machined surfaces. Now, I let my periodontal [01:13:30] colleagues argue that one out. But but but no, you’re correct. And we’re saying like when [01:13:35] you said 17 years, if you waited on 17 years for research on [01:13:40] margin elevation, if you waited 17 years on, you know, let’s look at some of the [01:13:45] the evidence in biomimetic dentistry and the new, the new areas of dentistry that are, that are [01:13:50] moving to the forefront. If you wait 17 years for the evidence, you’re going to 17 years potentially [01:13:55] doing the wrong thing. Um, or, you know, not as good a thing. So that is [01:14:00] a massive problem. And especially one of the things in dentistry, sorry, in digital dentistry is [01:14:05] I hope and I think that that, that that gap is faster because it’s actually industry [01:14:10] led. And again, the same again, I hope the implant data and things [01:14:15] is faster because there are pros and cons to industry leading research. Okay. So obviously we know the cons of [01:14:20] it can be a you know, I’m not going to say manipulated, but we can get results that maybe wouldn’t be [01:14:25] found in other people’s hands at times.

Rory Boyd: But what we also get is, is, is fast [01:14:30] movement, um, with regards to research, because they need to have evidence to show that their products better [01:14:35] or faster or whatever way, whatever way it may be. But at least we’re getting evidence done quickly. And [01:14:40] if you look at kind of, you know, look at all the different every, every new composite brand has new new composite [01:14:45] new material coming out every couple of years. They need evidence on that good and quick. [01:14:50] So at least they threw money at it. And it happens quickly. Now for [01:14:55] an academic purist, they will be rolling their eyes and pulling their hair out at that. I understand, but [01:15:00] at least if you look at the 3D printing world, the development that we’ve had in materials in [01:15:05] five years and last five years probably has been huge. And that’s continuing [01:15:10] in the background because they knew the hardware was fine, it was accurate enough. It’s reliable enough, um, [01:15:15] you know, and it’s good and consistent. It was the material was letting the process down. And look, if [01:15:20] the golden goose is 3D printing ceramics, which, you know, look, you go to [01:15:25] any conference now you’ll see a zirconia printer somewhere.

Rory Boyd: Um, so they do exist. They [01:15:30] are there. But if the golden goose is getting our, you know, our our being able to print everything [01:15:35] in house, which I think is, you know, I, I kind of teach a philosophy of [01:15:40] chairside, data acquisition, outsource design Chairside manufacture because we get we [01:15:45] get all the data we make, we, you know, we photograph scans, cone beams, whatever it may be. We put [01:15:50] the we put the we put the input into the into the system. The process is then [01:15:55] the design, which is the time, you know, it takes the time and the and [01:16:00] the and the artistry skills and the design skills, software skills, all of that. We outsource that and then we [01:16:05] chairside manufacture. So you can make that, that, that system far faster, more efficient [01:16:10] system with better communication lines in between the input process and output. That’s how I see [01:16:15] the future of digital dentistry integrating into practice. I think the design aspect is the [01:16:20] issue with regards to high quality, um, and time, whereas [01:16:25] the input and the and the manufacture, if it can be done chairside that whole process [01:16:30] just speeds up and you then also have more, potentially more control as a user. That’s [01:16:35] how I see that process.

Payman Langroudi: It’s nice. So when we look at.

Rory Boyd: We look at printing, [01:16:40] they want to be able to do everything. And obviously, you know, additive manufacture is [01:16:45] more efficient than reductive. And, you know, and if we look at, you know, the wastage that we have when we’re milling [01:16:50] and the issues with regards to accuracy and drill size [01:16:55] and all the issues that come along with milling, if we could print it and the fact that we could [01:17:00] potentially print it with depth of colour into it, okay. So we can actually print it in layers and we actually print it in [01:17:05] layers of different materials potentially. Then that’s for me [01:17:10] probably the golden goose for with regards to printing. And it’s just a material science. The hardware [01:17:15] is there. It’s getting the chemistry and the materials correct. And because you can, you can already print [01:17:20] it as a quinacrine the physical characteristics are nothing like what we can do with [01:17:25] traditional zirconia milled from pucks or whatever. But it will get there. And that will, I [01:17:30] think, be something that we’re looking at coming into laboratories that we’re using in the next 5 to 10 years [01:17:35] has to be because it just gets better control. Imagine, imagine being able to print [01:17:40] the shades into a zirconia monolithic zirconia crown. You can print depth of translucence, you can print [01:17:45] cracks in it. You can print. So you can effectively take a photometrically perfect photograph [01:17:50] of the adjacent central incisor. Pixelate that in whatever way.

Rory Boyd: Let’s just say [01:17:55] for your brain pixelate it and then print the exact copy [01:18:00] from a from of that tooth like unbelievable. And you can print the translucency [01:18:05] depth into it. The cracks, the stains there. You know, if we did monolithic. Now we’ve got stains on the outside which come [01:18:10] off over time whatever. So for me that in in the printing world, [01:18:15] in digital world, that’s, that’s, that’s a golden goose. And it was the same actually. Let’s go back to mistakes. [01:18:20] Digital articulation. We’ve been doing full mouth rehabs digitally for [01:18:25] for decades. And we really haven’t cracked articulation. And I [01:18:30] had I have a method or had a method and I somewhat modified over the last probably 18, [01:18:35] 20 months. But my issue. So my issue was you could make beautiful [01:18:40] restorations in MIP. Um, or in CR, whatever your treatment position [01:18:45] is in the case. But what you couldn’t do really was control X, so so what you ended up doing was making [01:18:50] restorations that had really flat molars and are really prominent anterior guidance, right? [01:18:55] To get just completely overwhelm the system with anterior guidance so that you weren’t going to have [01:19:00] interferences posteriorly. And you kind of thought, well, you can get away with that. And [01:19:05] you know, patients don’t, you know, patients are like, oh, what are my cusp angles are my lower sevens. You know, they weren’t [01:19:10] too aware of it. But when you saw the case and you look back on it, it’s like, that’s not good enough [01:19:15] because I can do that better with an articulator.

Rory Boyd: Okay. And again, like you go through all of your classic [01:19:20] training and your classic literature and God go back to all the [01:19:25] occlusion stuff and yeah, look at, you know, men of men of spent blood [01:19:30] learning that stuff and you’ve just decided, oh, well, I actually have a scanner, so I don’t need to do [01:19:35] it. Um, and I’m just going to flatten out all the cusps, basically make Fillmore three hubs that are like, um, [01:19:40] you know, costless teeth or mono monoplane teeth. And I [01:19:45] think I can do it better than that. So then I kind of went, well, actually, look, if I’m not going to use [01:19:50] an articulator, I need to use patients the best articulator we have. Right? So I was like, let’s [01:19:55] actually if we can, you know, copy mill stuff, let’s actually put it into the patient [01:20:00] with full anatomy test, the occlusal scheme in full anatomy. And [01:20:05] I can either use those acrylic crowns as tests and just mill them again in zirconia [01:20:10] or Imax or whatever, so I can actually use them same. Or I can put them in, adjust them to where I want [01:20:15] the occlusion in the mouth, and hopefully you get it pretty close. You’re not you’re not there for 2 to 4 [01:20:20] days equilibrating acrylic. But you can make adjustments, rescan [01:20:25] those temps and then you then use that as your as your guide for your for your finals. [01:20:30]

Rory Boyd: So that was the process and how I did it for a long time. And then the evolution you started [01:20:35] off with like not being very occlusal aware to to being a lot better. And I still think [01:20:40] like the patient’s the best articulator. And I’m not I don’t love adjusting stuff. So I’ll generally try to do it in, [01:20:45] in provisionals and then adjust those rescanned those and show the show the technician where to make adjustments [01:20:50] when you reach under temps. But then the introduction of using [01:20:55] a face scanner, um, was an interesting way to integrate occlusion into your my system. So [01:21:00] basically what I did was I made a face scan of the patient, and I could integrate my intraoral [01:21:05] scans into that scan. You basically had two scans. You just scan with retractors in and you just a regular [01:21:10] smiling face scan. And on the patient I mark Berman’s point, which [01:21:15] I change axis and my Frankfurt plane, which effectively, if you think of [01:21:20] the upper arm of an Articulator, the top limb is the Frankfurt plane and the [01:21:25] the little notch, which is where which is effectively Baron’s Point, the terminal hinge axis. So [01:21:30] as long as we have those two pieces of information, I can mount the upper jaw into my digital [01:21:35] face scan. So then we mounted that and then you [01:21:40] through all of that into exocad.

Rory Boyd: And now you can mount the articulator into the patient because you’ve got those, those [01:21:45] reference points to the incisal the maxillary incisal edge or maxillary plane. And [01:21:50] then that’s your, that’s your, that’s your mounted. So off you go. And and we did that. And [01:21:55] I suppose the next step is module. And I think you know I haven’t got my jaw [01:22:00] yet. I don’t have the, the financial remit to, to to purchase that just yet. [01:22:05] Um, but yeah I think, I think articulation is probably the next, you know, digital [01:22:10] articulation is the next kind of big step forward with, you know, [01:22:15] modules. Certainly the big step forward in the last couple of years, modules. Now the, you know, the, you know, face [01:22:20] scanner, the original face scanners, was it uh plane or Pathfinder and [01:22:25] plane. It was Arkansans system was really good. It used a funny articulation [01:22:30] process. But it was it was really good. And the face scanners kind of went out, kind of went away. And then they kind of came back. [01:22:35] But I think, you know, real time articulation with module. And I think like module, [01:22:40] I don’t know, there’s 60 odd grand for a unit at this point that’s going to come down. There will be copies. [01:22:45] There’s going to be lots of you know, they’re definitely digital articulation will be the next, next [01:22:50] area to jump I think area.

Payman Langroudi: I went to, I went to a [01:22:55] lecture by, um, Nasri. Um, I [01:23:00] can’t say his surname. You know who I’m talking about? Nasri. Milk. [01:23:05] And, um. Dcd. [01:23:10] And it blew me away, man. It blew me away. I [01:23:15] mean, it was weird because I came out of it just blown away, and everyone else seemed to be not as [01:23:20] impressed as I was. And I kind of figured maybe, uh, I’m just not following, like, [01:23:25] I’m a bit behind, but but the amount of different technologies [01:23:30] that he had going on in that and that, uh, lecture.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rory Boyd: No. It’s bad. [01:23:35] And like, I remember the first and that is one of the issues with digital, especially when you’re when you’re giving talks [01:23:40] on it. I went over I spoke at the Pan-Hellenic, uh Dental Congress in Greece two years ago, [01:23:45] I think it was. And, um, I was doing I was doing a talk on 3D printing, and I was, I [01:23:50] think the title was, uh, chairside 3D printing A to Z or something along those lines. And I [01:23:55] was in Athens and I flew over and I was I remember arriving, I was like, gosh, this is quite big. I’d never been [01:24:00] to the conference before. And I was like, I was like, how many are here? And they said, yeah, I think there was 4500. I was like, [01:24:05] all right, okay. Yeah. Sizeable.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Rory Boyd: And uh, I kind of turned up [01:24:10] and I was like, right. And I walked through the trade show, just get a gauge on, like, what was kind of going on in the trade show was full [01:24:15] of zirconia printers, every 3D loads of brands I’d never heard of, and [01:24:20] every scanner under the sun. And then I walked through, had, you know, my best, [01:24:25] you know, 3D printing. I shall fill my three halves. And I integrated every, you know, systems [01:24:30] and how we use 3D printed temporaries. And we moved through, you know, how we move through the process of all the rehabs [01:24:35] and everything. And at the start, I don’t know how many were in the room. I’d say there was maybe [01:24:40] 2000 people. And, uh, I asked, I just said at the start, like, I’d like to gauge [01:24:45] what? Because in digital you can often get a wide range of. And it’s really hard one to [01:24:50] kind of set a talk for because you could have someone who doesn’t know what 3D printer is to someone who uses it every day and is [01:24:55] trying to, you know, apparently you’re the guru and you’re going to teach them all the kind of new, intricate bits. So [01:25:00] it’s really hard to try and serve everybody in the audience.

Rory Boyd: So when I asked them to put their hands up [01:25:05] of who you who has the 3D printer in their office and there was one. [01:25:10] So I was like, oh gosh, right, okay, I’m [01:25:15] gonna have to completely re-engineer this talk and kind of, you know, spend a lot more time on it already starts [01:25:20] kind of introducing 3D, 3D printing technology, but that’s one of the most, the biggest difficulties with [01:25:25] regards to digital, because there’s such a wide spectrum of people who use it. And the other thing you often [01:25:30] forget, and it’s one of the biggest things I learned about when I, when I, when I was doing talks or conferences or stuff like that [01:25:35] is that you forget. And this is going to sound really like, you know, [01:25:40] self promoting, but you kind of forget how much you know, and like if someone’s asking you to speak, it’s something they [01:25:45] obviously think you know a lot about it. But you also forget how if you if you haven’t spent the last ten years doing [01:25:50] it, how little others sometimes do as well. So it’s time to tailor your what you think [01:25:55] is quite a simple concept, but you forget the fact that you’ve been studying this for an extra number [01:26:00] of years and you’ve been you’ve kind of really.

Rory Boyd: And I really went down the rabbit hole with digital, so you forget that people don’t know [01:26:05] what the different 3D printers are or what the materials are, how they work, you know, the simple, basic [01:26:10] stuff. And that’s something that I’ve tried to evolve as I, you know, over my career of speaking at things or whatever, is [01:26:15] to try and really understand that there’s a wide spectrum of people that have a wide spectrum of knowledge. And [01:26:20] I got the same thing that you got when I went and saw Wally Rene speak at [01:26:25] the first, um, American College of Prosthodontists digital symposium that was [01:26:30] on the midwinter. And I don’t know, we’re talking ten years ago, I think, and I walked into the room [01:26:35] with no digital experience whatsoever. Um, I’d never used a scanner. [01:26:40] And again, it was ten years ago. And, you know, so everything was kind of at [01:26:45] its earlier stage, scan flags were just coming out for implants, you know, it was it was at its [01:26:50] early. I think Nobel had brought out their kind of, you know, guided, semi [01:26:55] guided. But a guided implant was like, oh my gosh, you know.

Payman Langroudi: And.

Rory Boyd: Um, [01:27:00] and anyway I sat down and I was blown away and I knew boom, this is for me. I’m gonna I’m [01:27:05] getting launched into this because it was the first digital thing I’d been to, and I got blown away. And [01:27:10] the funny thing is, I went back and I go to quite a few digital meetings, but I went [01:27:15] back to one, and at the point where I realised it’s like, okay, I’m doing okay. Here’s when I [01:27:20] went in, I didn’t see anything, you know, blew me away or I didn’t see anything too new, like you said, like other people were like, yeah, [01:27:25] it was all right. Pretty, you know, pretty normal stuff. That’s the point, you know? Okay. You [01:27:30] know, I need to still obviously develop and and critique, but now I [01:27:35] have a decent handle on it. Once you’re starting to go to, like, world leading talks and you’ve a decent, you [01:27:40] know, you’ll always get a nugget, right? It doesn’t matter whether you go to a talk that is in your local area, with [01:27:45] your study club, with with five people, or whether you go to the the world’s best, [01:27:50] you know, whatever digital symposium or, you know, prosthodontics.

Payman Langroudi: I think what’s.

Payman Langroudi: What’s one [01:27:55] of the loveliest. One of the. Can you hear.

Payman Langroudi: Me? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: One of the loveliest [01:28:00] things is when you’ve suspected something and then you see an expert, a worldwide [01:28:05] leader, say that thing. And it’s just such a weird, wonderful thing, isn’t it? [01:28:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I know, 100% and I.

Rory Boyd: Because, you know, those little ideas come from somewhere. And, [01:28:15] you know, we all have them. There’s always something you think. Mhm. And then yeah you get getting that vindicated thought [01:28:20] vindicated I suppose.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. Thought vindicated.

Rory Boyd: Yeah I know 100%. No. [01:28:25] Like and from a digital for anybody who is listening that that finds [01:28:30] it that it’s too big a mountain to walk up or like oh gosh everyone’s ahead of me. And like digital [01:28:35] is such an easy thing to pick up because you just start small. You just start with one piece of kit, [01:28:40] you know? And like if somebody says about digital, you probably are, you probably have digital x rays. You probably have a digital, you [01:28:45] know, patient, patient dental record you probably have. Or if you don’t, you have [01:28:50] access to a digital OPG or cone beam or what have you. But everyone [01:28:55] sees entry to digital as an internal scanner. That’s fine. Okay, so let’s start there. But that’s but [01:29:00] digital is super easy. So and like whenever I’m talking to somebody about digital dentistry, you don’t need to go [01:29:05] and buy £200,000 worth of kit. You could go and have to buy an internal [01:29:10] scanner. There are so many now that are at a far more reasonable fraction [01:29:15] of what the price point that we originally bought them for. I mean, over here, 12, [01:29:20] €13,000 will get you an extremely good, you know, scanner. If you look at the kind of market disruptors [01:29:25] shining 3D metal whatever company I’m not, you know, aligned to any any of them specifically, [01:29:30] but those, you know, if you’re doing simple cases and not trying to, you know. [01:29:35]

Rory Boyd: Set the world alight. Those things work so well. They’re so user friendly. The software [01:29:40] interfaces are so simple and just getting into, you know, getting into the scanners. Then, okay, [01:29:45] maybe you want to do some more advanced cases. Maybe you want to look at upgrading. Look, I’ve always used three [01:29:50] ship. So I’m like, you know I’m not I don’t work for them. I don’t promote them. But [01:29:55] I’m like brand completely done in by three ship. I will never look [01:30:00] at another scanner. That’s not quite true but but at the minute I the three ship system has worked really [01:30:05] well in my hands. But you know, then what you’ll do is you’ll add a little 3D printer to it if you want to start making [01:30:10] some bleaching trays or some Essex retainers or something like that, and you just slowly but surely add [01:30:15] to your. And it’s the same process that everybody has done before, because we all had we kind of had [01:30:20] to learn it on the hop. So we’re kind of like, well, we use the scanner first, then, well, what could you use the scanner for? And okay, [01:30:25] we’ve got a 3D printer and then now you’ve added 3D printer. Now you add different materials. We can use those different materials [01:30:30] for different things. You can get kind of creative and then you maybe get a digital designer outsourced, which [01:30:35] I use, a digital designer who’s based in Ukraine.

Rory Boyd: And he’s amazing digital technician. [01:30:40] And he sends me back the work within three hours of me sending it to him, I can turn around. Time starts [01:30:45] getting. So you just added incrementally. It doesn’t have to be Everest. It doesn’t have to. You don’t have to be doing [01:30:50] full, large 3D printed prosthesis in the first week. It is just you can use it just as an impression [01:30:55] replacement to start with. And then you over time, you’ll find it so easy to use [01:31:00] and you can start to use different things taking scans of wax up, sending those along with cases, whatever it may be. [01:31:05] And but it just starts small. I think that’s the best advice I would give to anybody listening if they are trying to get into digital [01:31:10] dentistry. I’m a geek, so I try and I enjoy getting into getting [01:31:15] into areas that sometimes don’t work and come back out of those and you know, but yeah, just start small and there’s [01:31:20] so much the cost the cost barrier and I is I don’t think is a reasonable [01:31:25] excuse anymore. Look, when scanners were 4050 K that’s a, that’s an issue. But [01:31:30] when you know, when scanners are about the same price as your autoclave, I think, okay, we can start to, you [01:31:35] know, we can start to maybe look at those and add those to, to the business.

Payman Langroudi: And in the in the [01:31:40] practice. You’ve got a co-founder. Well, a co-principal, is that right? [01:31:45] Is it one of you? It’s two of us or. Yeah. What did he do? Is he a specialist too?

Rory Boyd: Yes [01:31:50] he is. Yeah. He’s. Period. So we met. He was. He was two years behind me when [01:31:55] he was doing his perio program. And basically. Yeah, I think whenever [01:32:00] you’re starting a business with somebody else, you’ve got to be very careful. Um, [01:32:05] especially if it’s one of your friends, because that person needs to have the same values plan, [01:32:10] life plan to some extent as you because you’re going to grow and evolve [01:32:15] together. Um, and I suppose it’s like any good relationship, you need to grow and evolve together at [01:32:20] the same time, at the same pace, um, to stay on the same page. So like when [01:32:25] I first met Ed Ed’s from Cardiff or outside Cardiff. He’d trained [01:32:30] in Cardiff and he came over to Ireland before he did. He’s [01:32:35] actually an interesting, you know, case study in himself. He, he did he kind of did general dentistry [01:32:40] and wanted out a few strings to his bow. And he ended up doing the Royal College Implant program and [01:32:45] started placing some implants. Then he got to the surgeries placing implants. He just felt he didn’t know enough. [01:32:50] You know, his grafting techniques weren’t good enough. And he decided, actually, that’s his look, I’ve I [01:32:55] enjoy implants, I’ve got into this and I really just don’t feel I know enough. I really want to, you know, really [01:33:00] keep coming across barriers. I want to know more. And I end up going back to do perio. Um, and our program [01:33:05] here would be very strong on the implant side as well. So he ended up in that he worked for about [01:33:10] maybe 6 or 7 years in practice before doing it. So he did kind of more orthodox [01:33:15] route. And therefore I love saying he’s a little bit older than me.

Rory Boyd: And, uh, so [01:33:20] he basically from when we started, when he first came to came to college, I knew [01:33:25] we got on really well. We had very similar values, very similar outlooks on dentistry and careers and personally and [01:33:30] whenever I by four years, maybe three years after [01:33:35] I was in the practice when I bought in, there was a periodontist there. Um, at the time he had [01:33:40] his own separate business, but in the same building. So he then came to me and asked and said, look, [01:33:45] Rory, do you know anyone that you think would be good and who you. Because I don’t want to sell to [01:33:50] somebody you don’t want to work with because you’re going to be, you know, inevitably you’re going to be working with them to some, to [01:33:55] some level. Now, you could easily separate the business out and it could be separate. But the ideal plan would [01:34:00] be to have someone and they partner up and you join forces. And um, and at the time Ed was qualifying and [01:34:05] it was the perfect it just again, it’s just similar to my own story. Very lucky. Right place, right time. Um, [01:34:10] and was surrounded by the right people. Um, and I then, you know, said [01:34:15] to Doctor Cork and said, look, I’d love, um, you to discuss this with Ed. And, you know, thankfully [01:34:20] they worked, worked, worked it all out between themselves. And he started work shortly [01:34:25] after and yeah, since then. So when we first started, it was just the two of us. And then [01:34:30] we added, uh, friend of ours and Endodontist Doctor Craven started and [01:34:35] then I took over. Um, we.

Payman Langroudi: Had as a partner.

Rory Boyd: Associate. And [01:34:40] then I added, uh, we, I bought a radiology referral business [01:34:45] out of that to it. And then we added two more periodontists. We [01:34:50] also have an oral surgeon three days a week, and we are starting, [01:34:55] um, hopefully in the next month or two, a new prosthodontist. So we’re kind of [01:35:00] grown a little in the last three years.

Payman Langroudi: So, you know, you said, um, someone [01:35:05] going into partnership with someone who’s got the same basic values as you. I totally agree [01:35:10] with that. But but I’d add on to that. Someone with opposite skill sets. [01:35:15]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so you said you don’t like the. Air [01:35:20] part. You don’t like the practice management side does does [01:35:25] Ed?

Rory Boyd: Yeah. He certainly he certainly better than I am. Um, I’m [01:35:30] lucky enough that I my father is still effectively my financial director, which [01:35:35] was to be honest, I couldn’t have done it otherwise because, you know, I [01:35:40] took over a practice at the time, I think under my estimate, maybe ten staff [01:35:45] between nurses and receptionists, a couple of hygienists and stuff. And, you know, just [01:35:50] even just just even knowing how to do payroll or knowing how to [01:35:55] yeah, appropriately financial forecast and what have you. And thankfully, my father’s [01:36:00] background was in corporate banking, so he had a rough idea of how to [01:36:05] run a small business. So he and so from a business point of view, my dad and still does, [01:36:10] which I’m so grateful and happy for, uh, that takes a lot of stress [01:36:15] out of my, my life. But yeah, Ed’s definitely a little bit better on the old admin and the HR front. [01:36:20] But the other thing is we run a really open house, and it’s one of the things if anybody [01:36:25] was starting a practice, you’ve got to make that decision early. How big are you planning to try and get? Because [01:36:30] we’re we’re probably at max. I think at this point I don’t think we want to look, if [01:36:35] we wanted to grow any bigger, we’d need to start building more surgeries. So we definitely aren’t doing that any time soon. But [01:36:40] but what I mean by that is, is that we can man manage our staff, whereas when you get big [01:36:45] enough that you have a mid, you need to employ mid-level management. You become [01:36:50] separated from the HR aspect, which is great, but you also separate yourself from control. [01:36:55]

Rory Boyd: So you’ve got to make a decision on how big am I trying to go, and [01:37:00] am I going to get to a stage where I’ve got middle management like say, HR staff or, you know, clinical [01:37:05] directors or whatever we’re going to, you know, call them practice managers, whereas [01:37:10] we actually run a very open house. We have a we have a very, very, very loyal and beautiful [01:37:15] team that we work with with regards to their so giving of their time and of their expertise. [01:37:20] And we work very much like a family. And that if you know, if a nurse has any issues, whether it be in work [01:37:25] or outside of work, we have open door policy. It’s come in and chat to us. And and from an HR point [01:37:30] of view, that’s how we manage it. Now that can’t be the same for everybody. And you need to have a very specific team [01:37:35] that that will fit that ethos or that ethic. And everyone needs [01:37:40] to to pull in the same direction because that becomes an issue. If you do have issues with HR, because when you when [01:37:45] you when you work so closely on an open door policy that can either be taken advantage of or, [01:37:50] you know, it can run into trouble if there are problems. So it’s a fine line. But that’s how we run our house and we’re [01:37:55] just happy. You know, people talk about happy wife, happy life, we’re happy house happy life. And we and [01:38:00] we call the practice a house. But I agree with you.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting. I agree with.

Rory Boyd: You. The skill set. [01:38:05] You want somebody who’s got a complementing skill set to yours.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but but [01:38:10] what I was going to say was what I was going to say. Like it could happen. You’re very young. Yeah, you [01:38:15] really are. It could happen that some private equity guy comes to you and says, [01:38:20] let’s open 30 of these in all over the world for the sake of the argument. [01:38:25] Yeah. And, you know, when you balance up what you’re going to do next in your life. [01:38:30] Yeah, I look back to times when we were, I don’t know, 12 people, 14 people, [01:38:35] some of the happiest times in my career. Yeah. [01:38:40] You know, as, as in enlightened. Yeah. And okay. [01:38:45] At that time, we just weren’t making much money. So it just didn’t. That was the problem with the [01:38:50] situation. But because it was a small team, they were happy times because we understood [01:38:55] everyone in the thing. Now, if you were making enough money to do the things you want to do, your hobbies, [01:39:00] you know, whatever, whatever you want to do with your life, it should. We need to normalise the question [01:39:05] of everyone doesn’t have to open 100 practices or, you know, like making [01:39:10] one place perfect is as beautiful a thing as [01:39:15] 50 or 100, you know what I mean? It’s we need to normalise that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But these these days, [01:39:20] these days everyone’s big time.

Rory Boyd: And you know, if you look, I suppose. [01:39:25] Look, we’re a specialist practice referral centre. Our are our prices [01:39:30] might be increased or our margins might be slightly higher, but it’s making [01:39:35] fine if you want to own 30 or 40 practices and, you know, get into [01:39:40] the corporate side of things, go for it. But at that point, for me, you’re a businessman. My life [01:39:45] and my career life revolves around treating patients and teaching dentists. That’s that’s [01:39:50] that when it comes down to it, that’s what I do. I treat patients, and if I’m not treating patients, I’m teaching. [01:39:55] And those are what define me. And when those define you and you’re good [01:40:00] at them, I’ve never had to worry too much about the, you know, the revenue lines [01:40:05] or the, you know, the you know, they kind of sort themselves out. So for [01:40:10] my again, advice, if I was talking to a younger dentist and somebody said, oh yeah, but I want to, I want to [01:40:15] start I want 40 practices. Well, that’s fine if you want to. And if that’s chasing, if you enjoy business, that’s that’s great. [01:40:20] If you are trying to chase money, then that’s not [01:40:25] I don’t think that’s the best way to do it. I think the best way to, to, to get renumeration [01:40:30] is become brilliant at something. And when you’re brilliant like it’s, [01:40:35] there’s I’m sure somebody else used this analogy because it’s quite famous and it was [01:40:40] a Alan Watts was the I think I heard it off him and it was when [01:40:45] a student came to him and said, look, what am I going to do? And he said, well, that’s not a question for me.

Rory Boyd: It’s a question for you. What do you want [01:40:50] to do? What do you want? Because if you become brilliant at something, you don’t have to worry [01:40:55] about the revenue lines or the, you know, the financial side of it because somebody is willing to pay for pay for [01:41:00] those services. If you’re brilliant at it, the only reason you become brilliant at it is because you love it. And therefore, if you’re [01:41:05] trying to work out, do I want a massive practice? Do I want small practice? Work out what bit you like. If you like the [01:41:10] business side of things and you want to, you know, you think you’ve got acumen in that and you want to, [01:41:15] you want to get good and you get you get the buzz out of growing a business and being a successful [01:41:20] business, then fine. And if you don’t get the same buzz out of dentistry, that’s no problem. Go that way 100% and [01:41:25] and go for it. And I’ve respect for that. [01:41:30] But from our point of view, our, our main goal is to to provide the highest quality of care, full [01:41:35] stop. So our pursuit of perfection, because no one can ever get perfect, you can get [01:41:40] close. And it’s how close you can get is how good you are. And that would be what our mantra is. And [01:41:45] therefore if you’ve a, you know, if you do things the right way, then you end up in [01:41:50] our position where we’ve multiple people working. Everybody’s pretty much got a six month waiting list, if not [01:41:55] longer.

Payman Langroudi: Well, so give me a, give me give.

Payman Langroudi: Me some of the headlines. So how many how many [01:42:00] people work overall in the place.

Rory Boyd: Um, we have we’ve got three. [01:42:05] Perio one seemed to be two pros and oral surgery. So seven dentists, [01:42:10] two hygienists. So that’s nine. And then auxiliary staff we’ve 123456. [01:42:15] That’s called seven.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:42:20] can I can see you’re not in charge of payroll. Yeah I’m not sure how [01:42:25] many people we pay.

Rory Boyd: Uh, something along those lines. Um, but we’ve seven [01:42:30] operating dentists.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone is busy. Six months.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Pretty much.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:42:35] crazy.

Payman Langroudi: Something in that.

Rory Boyd: Region, I’d say. Yeah, I mean, certainly. And those little, little lighter. But that [01:42:40] needs to be because I don’t think you’re gonna wait in pain for six months. Um, but certainly [01:42:45] from a sort of pariah on my side, it would certainly be, you know, for new patient exam would be in that region. [01:42:50] It’s one of the reasons we’re trying to bring on another prosthodontist.

Payman Langroudi: You could put your price [01:42:55] up, do you?

Rory Boyd: Uh, no, I think we’re we’re I still struggle with charging big [01:43:00] money, so I’m keeping that.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, well, I don’t know if that’s the case.

Payman Langroudi: But. So. [01:43:05]

Payman Langroudi: So hold on. Let’s get let’s get down to the reason why that is. I mean, okay, so there was a legacy [01:43:10] from what’s his name, Doctor Davis. Who? The original [01:43:15] guy. But but your customer then is the referring dentist, is that [01:43:20] right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: Is that the way you look at it?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah.

Rory Boyd: I mean, if you if you look at it from a commercial point of [01:43:25] view, my clients are other dentists. And look, I think [01:43:30] if you’re building a referral practice, you need to understand that. But the other thing is, is just [01:43:35] I think being. Yeah. Look, Ed and I both took on, you know, existing practices [01:43:40] that were highly respected. So much so that whenever we took [01:43:45] over the practice, there was always going to be a letter from that dentist saying please keep referring here and thankfully [01:43:50] touch wood. I think probably 90% of the already [01:43:55] referring dentists have have maintained. But you’ve got to also realise that if that [01:44:00] dentist, when you’ve taken over is of any age, then the ones that refer to him are probably of an age. [01:44:05] So they’re not, they’re not going to be practising forever. So you need to, you know, it’s the same way as you know, a general [01:44:10] practice needs to turn over patients because you have patients that, um, are, you know, your elderly patients aren’t going to be your patients [01:44:15] forever, unfortunately. And it’s the same referring dentists. They retire. So [01:44:20] and I, I suppose would have always had a good relationship within the dental community with socially [01:44:25] and um, and then within the hospital. And it’s one of actually one of the advantages, I think, of training in your hometown [01:44:30] or your home time, but the time that you plan to live in, a lot of people will say, well, go away [01:44:35] and whatever.

Rory Boyd: But actually when you train, you know, when Dublin’s a small enough place, when you train [01:44:40] here, you start meeting a lot of other dentists and you start building your dental network, unbeknown to you. But at the [01:44:45] time, at the time, but certainly afterwards, you start to appreciate the the dinners out and the drinks out [01:44:50] that you had with certain dentists, you know, 5 or 6 years ago. And so you end up developing a dental network [01:44:55] edge also from a bit of a dental family. His wife’s a dentist, his father in law [01:45:00] was a very well known dentist. He retired last year, and so he would have had a good connection with a group [01:45:05] of, of, of general dentists or referring dentists in that vicinity. But we [01:45:10] you know, the other thing is still a surprise is you get patients from I had patients from Geneva [01:45:15] this year. I had patients, you know, plenty of patients from London that have come across my somebody [01:45:20] has given them my name from somewhere. I’ve patients who’ve come over from the States.

Rory Boyd: So you’d [01:45:25] still be shocked sometimes. But don’t get me wrong, the majority of them are relative within from Ireland and within dentists. We know. [01:45:30] But the other thing, again, for anybody who is looking at setting up a referral practice, [01:45:35] you don’t need that many referrals. You know, if you have, [01:45:40] you know, if you have 5 or 6 really good general [01:45:45] practitioners that send you really good high quality referrals, you know, that have had all the, you [01:45:50] know, disease cessation completed before they get to you, that I’m not saying they have to have the plan, the care side, [01:45:55] but, you know, dealt with the basic stuff. So when they come to you, they’re kind of ready to go. [01:46:00] If you get a couple of those a month from 5 or 6, that is a lot of work. And [01:46:05] so, you know, especially from a process side, and if you’re doing more big, bigger cases, [01:46:10] you don’t actually need a huge. And to any one of [01:46:15] my referrals who are listening, thank you very much. And uh, and don’t think of going anywhere else. [01:46:20] I’m not saying we’ve got too many and, uh, you need any urgent cases. Please send me an urgent and I [01:46:25] will see them next week. No problem.

Payman Langroudi: But.

Rory Boyd: But you don’t actually need a huge referral base. [01:46:30] You need 5 or 6 that are. Send it and then you’ll always have. I think I probably have about 40 or 50 on [01:46:35] my list that I send, you know, wine to at Christmas or whatever. But I think, you know, if you look at the, you know, [01:46:40] you’ve 4 or 5 that are sending you a lot of work and that that keeps that keeps the [01:46:45] list very, very busy. And it’s the same with perio, you know, again, if you’re doing their implant [01:46:50] cases and stuff, he’s got probably a faster turnaround. You know, if it’s soft tissue grafts or implants they’re a little bit quicker. Maybe, [01:46:55] you know, if I have to fill my three have I’m seeing them for six months, 12 months. If it’s if it’s, you know, implants [01:47:00] included, they’re going to be with me for 2 or 3 years. If there’s ortho included, it’s going to be longer. So I have probably [01:47:05] my patients are longer and see them more often. But yeah, I think it’s the same. I think last [01:47:10] month I saw we really we really new referrals last month as a practice and [01:47:15] 80 new referrals a month is a lot of work.

Payman Langroudi: So a lot of work.

Rory Boyd: You know, 8080 [01:47:20] referrals is going to increase our waiting list. Um, and that’s great. And that’s that’s the whole practice. That’s all. That’s [01:47:25] that’s a solid. But you know, if you saw 80 new patients that need some sort of complex work done, [01:47:30] that’s, that’s you’re good. So that’s kind of how that but again, it’s not [01:47:35] it I think look, I’m obviously involved heavily with the Irish Dental Association have been a, you know, president this [01:47:40] year. But I’ve been president of my local area for uh, and starting on the, on the, you know, the branch area [01:47:45] for probably six years I’ve been involved in, you know, Irish Dental Association committees. [01:47:50] I’ve been involved with education here. And being kind of omnipresent, [01:47:55] I suppose, keeps you in the forefront of people’s minds when they’re, uh, thinking of referrals. But [01:48:00] but yeah, I really do think it’s just through social. Um, look, obviously you’ve got to be half decent [01:48:05] at what you do. We use social media marginally to put that out there. And I think your reputation [01:48:10] is, is where that build up. Yeah. And, [01:48:15] you know, I think both of us have the put out the same similar image of we are [01:48:20] in the pursuit of perfection. That’s how close we can get to that. And if you’re patient and you’re, you’re, you’re you’re referring [01:48:25] dentist knows and understands. That’s the philosophy. Well then you can’t go too far, too far [01:48:30] wrong.

Payman Langroudi: I’m going to ask you some unfair questions now. It’s like little aha [01:48:35] moment. Give me an aha moment in cross. [01:48:40] Like something. Something that untangled cross for you.

Rory Boyd: Understanding [01:48:45] that every patient is just a complete denture.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:48:50] look. Go on, expand on that quickly.

Rory Boyd: When people find occlusion difficult [01:48:55] or, you know, don’t understand occlusion or [01:49:00] there’s too many different philosophies and you, Pinkman, Skyler or your mythologist or whatever [01:49:05] kind of struggle you just think back to your complete denture training. [01:49:10] And if you can learn occlusion that that you can create for complete dentures. [01:49:15] And I’m not saying we need to make, you know, bilateral balance and whatever, we can use canine guidance to get [01:49:20] around that. But if you just think that that from the complete denture, is everything [01:49:25] okay. Right.

Payman Langroudi: And we all know how they come together. Right?

Payman Langroudi: But if you go [01:49:30] from.

Rory Boyd: Let’s keep it small, let’s talk about smile design. That’s many, many smile makeover. When [01:49:35] you set the front set of teeth in a complete denture, that is what you’re trying to achieve. And your mini smile makeover. Okay, [01:49:40] so from an aesthetic smile design, if you look at all of the smile design, DSD, DSD, [01:49:45] 3D, whatever smile design system you want, all of that literature [01:49:50] came from complete dentures. Okay, you look at your setup, your smile frame smile, [01:49:55] your canine position, your tooth proportions that all came from complete dentures. Then [01:50:00] you go. Then you go. One step. Let’s let’s go slightly bigger. Let’s talk about a [01:50:05] full arch or kind of a full arch. Restoration of occlusion. The occlusal planes on a complete [01:50:10] denture that set the maxillary occlusal plane as what you would use the same thing. You know, the [01:50:15] contact points, the premolars, the rotation of, you know, when you look at your maxillary occlusal plane, that, um, [01:50:20] buccal cusp of the four touches the plane, both cusps of the five mes, your palatal [01:50:25] teeth rotation, right? So that that all comes from complete dentures. And then when we get to occlusion, [01:50:30] the setup is slightly different okay. Because we want a little bit of freedom and centric. And we [01:50:35] want to, you know, we want a little bit of space in the anterior. We don’t want to cause too much. We’re actually reverse anterior guidance. But [01:50:40] when we actually look at even just like MIP contacts and [01:50:45] we’re looking at assessment of excursive contacts, okay. For the first two millimetres of movement, the [01:50:50] understanding of that. And if you throw in an equilibrated Michigan [01:50:55] splint, because that teaches you everything you basically need to do with dynamic occlusion. In my opinion, those [01:51:00] two removable devices basically explain 90% of dentistry to me.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:51:05] know that might be a slightly obscure.

Rory Boyd: So when people say, oh, I hate [01:51:10] complete dentures, I’m like, well, you must be a terrible dentist, because in my life I don’t make [01:51:15] that. I still make quite a lot of complete dentures. But like every patient I see, [01:51:20] especially like film rehab or aesthetic setup, I’m looking at them like a complete denture [01:51:25] case and how I would do it in a complete denture. And then that. That’s so.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:51:30] so interesting because I was asking someone, what would you take out of the dental course to put in all this digital stuff? And he [01:51:35] was saying, complete dentures, but.

Payman Langroudi: Not the not that you.

Rory Boyd: Might ever do any. Okay. And like.

Payman Langroudi: No, [01:51:40] but what.

Payman Langroudi: You’re saying now.

Payman Langroudi: Puts.

Payman Langroudi: That on its head.

Payman Langroudi: The teaching of the complete denture.

Rory Boyd: Isn’t [01:51:45] just okay, right. Impression making fine. Border moulding [01:51:50] fine. Right. So that okay, I still love that, but that’s put that aside. But [01:51:55] everything else in this complete denture program to set up, you know, wax rim set up understanding maxillary [01:52:00] plains with regards to, you know, Fox’s playing guide and understanding how the trigger lines and and [01:52:05] you know Frankfurt planes and inter papillary lines. That is that’s the anterior [01:52:10] design work to set up anterior design work using the articulator occlusion. [01:52:15] So in a complete denture course, I don’t care if you never do a complete denture in your life, but [01:52:20] that actually that course will teach you more on global dentistry [01:52:25] theory than anything else you’ll do in dental school. So I so for me, [01:52:30] I have joy and love of making good complete dentures. I still think it’s [01:52:35] a beautiful art. And, you know, cross that over with a bit of digital on some of [01:52:40] it. And that’s a big thing for me. But the actually the fundamentals [01:52:45] of complete dentures is where you where you learn everything. And the biggest problem with [01:52:50] digital is it does give people the false ability to skip [01:52:55] corners and digital. You can get away with stuff [01:53:00] doing it a little bit, kind of off the cuff without any major [01:53:05] understanding. You probably get away with it seven out of ten times, but the three times it’ll get you, it’ll bite you.

Rory Boyd: So [01:53:10] and it’s the same with like technician, you start working with a technician that never did [01:53:15] the basics. They understandings of occlusion and the understanding that with digital [01:53:20] they’re just going to make it worse. Um, so the fun and that’s my one of my biggest worries [01:53:25] for actually dental technicians is the classic teaching of, you know, waxing a frog or crying the post [01:53:30] ceramic solid or like the love of the old, you know, the traditional technician ways. But [01:53:35] those concepts with regards to say, occlusion and like, you know, margination [01:53:40] why you’re doing it, why why you’re doing that and the traditional FMS to get, you know, so you actually [01:53:45] think that, you know, the marginal gap is the is the be all and end all to get that done. Like why you should be hand [01:53:50] finishing, um, after milling to make sure that that that little sometimes you get a [01:53:55] zirconia crown back. It’s got that little lip. Well that’s there because the machine over milled better because didn’t want it [01:54:00] thin enough because of a chip that’s going to be hand finished back, you know. So so those understandings of the [01:54:05] kind of minutiae only come from the classic training. I haven’t seen a, you know, a digital [01:54:10] program that will still cover those. So, yeah, that’s kind of it. That was an aha moment for me, as the complete [01:54:15] denture is basically what.

Payman Langroudi: A brilliant, brilliant be all and end all.

Payman Langroudi: What about in [01:54:20] your aha moment regarding um, you know, like you said, your, um, [01:54:25] part of the Metropolitan branch and then and then [01:54:30] and then becoming president, like, like, you know, I’m, I’m the opposite. I’m like an outsider cat, [01:54:35] like, I don’t I don’t get myself involved in associations and.

Payman Langroudi: Well. [01:54:40]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I mean, you said you said you said your dad was involved and stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:54:45] I did.

Payman Langroudi: That rub off.

Rory Boyd: Yeah. I suppose dad’s been involved in, you know, lots of different manly [01:54:50] sporting outside of career, but on different committees and, and clubs and charity [01:54:55] fundraising, um associations. And I get, I get a I [01:55:00] suppose it’s very different when you move out of the clinical practice. Let’s move out of the business sense. It’s [01:55:05] well, what else can dentistry give you? Right. So financial renumeration right. That’s that’s done. [01:55:10] Right. And and then you get super success and not kind [01:55:15] of a great feedback from patients. It makes you feel brilliant about yourself and and treating [01:55:20] patients as my sole driver. And that’s I really enjoy that interaction. But what does what does [01:55:25] the career of dentistry give you outside of your your your practice? Okay. [01:55:30] So we’re part of a profession that has very like minded people and a very big [01:55:35] network group. We have 3200 dentists in Ireland. I’m sure the UK has stratospherically [01:55:40] more than that, and we’re part of a community that all are relatively like minded people, and [01:55:45] the only thing that actually brings those together are the associations, whether it be BCD [01:55:50] or BDA or whatever. And I do get a lot [01:55:55] of enjoyment in the networking side. And it’s funny like, yeah, like I’m president [01:56:00] now. I’m the youngest ever president. There’s been and it’s a new [01:56:05] process for me because usually the presidents and there’s no disrespect to anyone that’s [01:56:10] come before me, but either towards the end of their career or then they have the ability to, you know, [01:56:15] maybe take a day off a week to give to the idea, which I can.

Rory Boyd: And when I was asked, it was very much [01:56:20] on the understanding that this might be a slightly different. I’m going to give everything I have to it, but [01:56:25] I’m not going to have the same ability for the, you know, the day to day running time commitments. So, [01:56:30] you know, simple things. I moved all the management committee meetings to the evenings, and we moved a lot of the [01:56:35] the kind of the day to day running stuff to the evenings or weekends, which, you know, again, thank you very much to [01:56:40] the team over there that we’re happy to have flexible working hours like that because we have I [01:56:45] think it’s nine staff and, you know, that work very, very hard behind the scenes to to to keep the association [01:56:50] on track for what we want to do with it. But I think the aha moment, because I [01:56:55] joined the EDA, because I enjoyed the CPD aspect, the networking aspect and socialising [01:57:00] aspect within the profession and the community, I suppose, of that. You know, I [01:57:05] look at our profession as, as a community, but the aha moment was [01:57:10] uh, my first. So for those, the committee is the joint Health committee and [01:57:15] government, obviously the joint Health Committee in government. Uh, it was the week after actually, the conference where [01:57:20] I met you. And when I was sitting in the government chambers with [01:57:25] my name on the the tab in front and, uh, Gerry Cleary [01:57:30] to bring that full circle, he was the one that helped me get set up in practice, was also [01:57:35] sitting in front of me as the chair of the Dental council.

Rory Boyd: I was like, okay, now we’re going [01:57:40] to it now, now, now we’re together. So myself and Gerry and a three other, uh, [01:57:45] our CEO and our, uh, president elect and our one of our past presidents were also there to lobby government [01:57:50] on a whole raft of, uh, different issues, but mainly in, around, you know, paediatric [01:57:55] care and our public services for, for, for children. That was like, yeah, that was an aha [01:58:00] moment of like, I’m not in government. I’m actually making a difference. Or I certainly feel like I’m making a [01:58:05] difference if government are listening anyway, as you feel like I’m making a difference to not only [01:58:10] your dental community, but I’m now making a difference to my general community. And I wouldn’t [01:58:15] have been, you know, if anybody knows me that well, I wouldn’t have been massively politically active. You know, I [01:58:20] I’d be fairly. Yeah. I wouldn’t, you know, I’d be would be fairly soft [01:58:25] individual. I would probably be the last person that some people would think it would be lobbying government for various different [01:58:30] areas. But and I, before I went in didn’t think that I was going to be, [01:58:35] you know, massively boisterous. But once you get in there and it’s like, okay, let’s strap the [01:58:40] strap the armour on here and let’s go to war, because this is where we’re actually this is this is the one room [01:58:45] I can actually make a significant difference in.

Rory Boyd: And I’d never done that before, and I’d never been [01:58:50] in that had that experience or had that. And we had four hours in that chamber [01:58:55] fighting for whether it be right to the profession or right to, for the patient. And [01:59:00] I never really done that type of work before. Um, it’s very different to my, [01:59:05] my 9 to 5. I mean, I don’t I don’t treat that many children to start with. Um, but [01:59:10] but yeah, I find that fascinating and that was not. And I was like, that’s this is why you do this. Um, this is why [01:59:15] you get involved with this, and you sit on committees and, yeah, there’s a lot of work involved and there’s lots of time given up [01:59:20] for it. But one is that the dental profession is a community. Um, and I like I like giving [01:59:25] back to that. But now that I have, I have the privilege to have the position to [01:59:30] to fight for patient rights to, uh, that’s, that was the aha moment for that. So it’s something [01:59:35] that I hope we’ll get the chance to do a number of times in my, uh, in my time. Under this year. [01:59:40] And thankfully there’s there’s been good responses to it and we’re starting to see some change. [01:59:45] So that makes it feel feel all the better.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing, man. Amazing. We’ve [01:59:50] come to the end of our time. We always end it with the same questions. [01:59:55] Fantasy dinner party. Three [02:00:00] guests, dead or alive. Who would you have?

Rory Boyd: So when you [02:00:05] sent this to me. I was like, oh God, because I do, I do quite a lot of dinner parties. Uh. [02:00:10]

Payman Langroudi: So you could you could cook.

Rory Boyd: Uh, so yeah, I would be known for the seven course [02:00:15] tasting menu with wine pairings on a relatively regular basis. So and I kind of I [02:00:20] generally invite different people. So I kind of know what works, what characters [02:00:25] work together and what somewhat don’t. But yeah, tricky one I think [02:00:30] like I’ll keep it on a theme and as the podcast is called Dental Leaders, I will [02:00:35] kind of think of who has influenced me in leadership. And [02:00:40] I think, again, you’ll hear my sporting background now. So I think the first one I’d pick is Alex Ferguson. [02:00:45] I’m sure everybody knows who he is or Sir Alex Ferguson, I should say. And I think [02:00:50] in particular with regards to characteristics of why I think he was such a good leader was his man management skills [02:00:55] and his ability to his ability to just be able to get the best out [02:01:00] of the team members that that he works with and have a you know, I don’t know if you’re quite an open door policy, [02:01:05] but certainly, you know, you look at that group that, you know, that he man [02:01:10] managed through throughout their careers that had all different characters, different problems, different issues, and [02:01:15] was able to get the best out of whoever was on the pitch.

Rory Boyd: So I think yeah. So I think from, from [02:01:20] from somebody I find very impressive. I go with that. I then [02:01:25] follow up with Richie McCaw, probably the greatest All Blacks captain, um, [02:01:30] of all time. Somebody I got the privilege of meeting when I was in Christchurch. And I just [02:01:35] find he’s just an awesome human being. Um, his ability to lead by example and [02:01:40] just his attention to detail is pursued a perfection with maybe not [02:01:45] ever getting there, I think. Yeah. All all in all, just a brilliant, brilliant [02:01:50] human being. Um. And then I [02:01:55] was actually sitting before this, and I was sitting with my girlfriend and I said, what am I going? I’m kind of, you know, Leaders. And I was thinking [02:02:00] of, you know, you know, I was thinking of when I keep it, you know, I need I have no females [02:02:05] in there. So, you know, I need to keep it quality based. And then I was thinking of Northern Irish. [02:02:10] Can I get some, you know, trying to make it, you know. It’s [02:02:15] really important. Um, and I was thinking of Mary Peters and, you know, the [02:02:20] Olympian and she’s. But actually, I’ve gone for Taylor Swift. Um. Uh, [02:02:25] one because she’d be brilliant after.

Payman Langroudi: Dinner on [02:02:30] song.

Rory Boyd: Also because I listen to a hell [02:02:35] of a lot of music and I really look up to her. So, yeah, as sad as it is, I wanted to make it kind of, you [02:02:40] know, political and yeah, make a statement with it. But actually, I just I’d love to have dinner with Taylor Swift. [02:02:45] That’s my third.

Payman Langroudi: Alex and Richie and Taylor [02:02:50] Swift. It’s an interesting combination.

Payman Langroudi: That’s good. That’s real good that.

Payman Langroudi: The [02:02:55] final question. Is a deathbed question difficult with someone so young? But [02:03:00] let’s imagine years and years and years from now on your deathbed, surrounded by [02:03:05] your friends and family, loved ones, anyone who’s important to you. With [02:03:10] three pieces of advice. Yeah. What would you.

Payman Langroudi: Say?

Rory Boyd: I’ve been lucky enough [02:03:15] to have great mentors throughout my career, though. It’s short, you know, and appreciate that. I’ve [02:03:20] done some things faster than significant, a lot of most of others, but [02:03:25] I’ve only been able to do that because I’ve had the best mentors and the people around [02:03:30] me, whether it be through dental school, whether it be through my professional, [02:03:35] you know, post dental school career, post graduate, post dental school, I would have the I [02:03:40] have to say I the reason I have what I have or I’ve achieved what I’ve achieved. Nothing. You know, [02:03:45] something to do with me, but it’s mainly to do with the people who’ve been around me. And from an early age, [02:03:50] my dad had always said to me, the key to success in life is to surround yourself by the [02:03:55] best team, okay? And that team may change. Unfortunately, you’ll be the only consistent [02:04:00] member of that team. But throughout your life, whether it be school life, whether it be university life, whether [02:04:05] it be family life, whether it be professional career life, whether it be anything outside of that surrounding [02:04:10] yourself. And it’s not, you know, I need if you’re the smartest person in the room, you’re in the wrong place. It’s [02:04:15] not about that. It’s about having a team of people [02:04:20] who have shared values and respect for what you do [02:04:25] and for and for you to what they do.

Rory Boyd: So it’s a mutually beneficial relationship. [02:04:30] So my first best piece of advice is from my dad. Surround yourself with the best team. And I’ve always [02:04:35] and that includes mentors. And I think that’s just like if you’re trying to do anything [02:04:40] within your career that maybe in any way somewhat different, or is to have [02:04:45] mentors, that you just trust everything they say, and if they tell you to jump, you [02:04:50] say, hi, hi, what do I need to do? How do I get there? And I’ve been so lucky to have a [02:04:55] different stages along my career. People, um, some consistent, but people who that [02:05:00] have been able to be so giving to me of their time and everything I have [02:05:05] is due to what they’ve given me. So I’ve just huge appreciation for that. Somebody [02:05:10] my first one. Surround yourself by the best team possible. My second one be [02:05:15] is I’m not actually sure where I heard this. I’m not going to try and say that I coined it, but [02:05:20] I heard it somewhere. But enjoy the journey, not the destination. You know, we [02:05:25] spend our lives, especially in dental school. And again, I spend a lot of time with students and stuff. And [02:05:30] it’s always they’re always thinking about what the next hurdle is or the next thing they’re not enjoying [02:05:35] the now or being present with it.

Rory Boyd: And yeah, don’t get me wrong, there’s some parts of dental school that aren’t that enjoyable. But if you [02:05:40] know everyone, there’s a point in life. And again, it sounds like [02:05:45] I’m 65 there, but where you hit and you go, this is it. And you know, I probably hit [02:05:50] that. I’d say probably a year three of, um, of opening the practice of this is it as [02:05:55] in, I’m going to do the same thing ish. For the next, however long. At [02:06:00] that stage I was 32, so I was probably thinking I would be retired by 50 at that point. [02:06:05] Uh, I know, I know, I’ll be working till I’m 70. Um, but [02:06:10] you go, this is what I’m going to do every day or every, you know, five days [02:06:15] a week. For the next probably 35 years. Realistically, right now [02:06:20] it hits a point. So if you don’t enjoy that journey, you’re going to be one of those people. You turn around when they’re 55 [02:06:25] and go, oh my God, that’s it. So basically you need [02:06:30] to make sure that you’re joining it along the way. Just achieving the the degree at the end of dental school, achieving [02:06:35] the buying of the practice, achieving of the of next year’s management committee. When [02:06:40] we go through turnover and the balance sheet and, and you know, having [02:06:45] all these targets that are far away thinking the grass is going to be greener when I get there, [02:06:50] and then you get there and you realise actually the grass was greener on the way up, there’s this doesn’t, you know, [02:06:55] you can get to the end and go, yeah, I made, you know, £50 million [02:07:00] this year.

Rory Boyd: It doesn’t get any better. Right. So it doesn’t matter what that is. [02:07:05] You’ve got to enjoy getting there. And when you and if you’re somebody that thinks they’ll enjoy [02:07:10] it when they get to whatever this place may be, they’ll be horribly disappointed when they get [02:07:15] there. I mean, I kind of, you know, I had that aspiration at points when, you know, you went through your [02:07:20] undergrad and you’re like, I just need to get the post-grad and I get the post-grad, and I get out now by the practice and everything will just turn into [02:07:25] like, rainbows and butterflies, and there’ll be unicorns running around, and it will [02:07:30] be the promised land. And I’d sure like Jesus. I’ve now taken on more than I probably had back there. [02:07:35] Right. And, you know, and different stresses and different drivers. And then you’ve got, you know, family [02:07:40] life kicks in and life is a constantly evolving. Again, [02:07:45] I’m 36, not 70.

Rory Boyd: But life is a constantly evolving journey. And [02:07:50] and you’ve got to enjoy the journey, not whatever you think you’re going because you probably won’t [02:07:55] ever end up there. So that would probably be, you know, that then blends into my [02:08:00] third one and we kind of talked a little bit about it earlier, but as have other stuff. Right, [02:08:05] because dentistry is the best career on the planet in my opinion. You can do [02:08:10] so many different things. You can work so many different are some people work two days a week, some [02:08:15] and have brilliant lives on that. Some people work seven days a week and it [02:08:20] gives you the flexibility when, when and touchwood. Hopefully family life does [02:08:25] happen for me with kids and stuff. It gives you that ability to, you know, at times work less, at [02:08:30] times work more. It’s such a flexible job. Um, it gives you massive satisfaction. [02:08:35] That’s not make any bones about it. The renumeration can be very [02:08:40] solid. That means you have no cares or worries around that. Um, or certainly fewer than others. [02:08:45] But it’s not the be all and end all. And it doesn’t. It shouldn’t take over [02:08:50] your life. It should accent it. And don’t get me wrong, I’m defined as a dentist. That’s that’s that’s [02:08:55] my definition. It’s my it’s my biggest hobby. Well, let’s say that I leave, I still [02:09:00] live, breathe, eat, sleep, drink it.

Rory Boyd: But I have 36 flights this year for a reason. I enjoy travel too, [02:09:05] and I enjoy cooking, I enjoy sport, I enjoy training, [02:09:10] I enjoy racing, whether it be half ironmans, whether it be half marathons, marathons, [02:09:15] whatever it may be, you have to have something outside of work that makes you [02:09:20] tick because otherwise burnout is only around the corner and you want to keep [02:09:25] your journey that you’re enjoying as long as possible. And so I think my third, you know, whatever way you title it, but [02:09:30] have other things because you want to leave or leave the office, when you leave the office, [02:09:35] you leave the office. It’s another privilege we have as dentists. Yes, of course, practice owners have bits and things to worry about, [02:09:40] but as a dentist solely, there ain’t much you can do when you’re sitting at [02:09:45] home. And that’s a that’s a that’s a lovely thing. You’re not a solicitor whose phones off. You know, the [02:09:50] eastern markets have popped up. If you’re in finance and you’re now going to start looking at them, or some [02:09:55] American clients phoning in the middle of the night, we don’t have that. So you’ve got to utilise that opportunity in that time for doing [02:10:00] other things. That would be my third.

Payman Langroudi: Very nice, buddy. I think you’ve come, my [02:10:05] one. You’ve become a hero of mine. It’s rare that someone younger than me [02:10:10] becomes a hero of mine. But I think you’ve become a hero of mine. Thanks, I like that.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [02:10:15] a first time for everything.

Payman Langroudi: Long may it.

Payman Langroudi: Continue. [02:10:20] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Continue.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you very much for having me on.

Payman Langroudi: But he’s seven years out is nothing. You [02:10:25] know, you’re still at the very beginning, and all the stuff you’re doing is super duper. Really, [02:10:30] really impressive. He really enjoyed that very much.

[VOICE]: This [02:10:35] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one [02:10:40] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [02:10:45] hosts. Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [02:10:50] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just [02:10:55] a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to [02:11:00] say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If [02:11:05] you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share [02:11:10] this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks. [02:11:15]

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: One point in life I was doing like 10 to 12 sessions a day, every day, seven days a week. And I [00:00:05] was literally like pushing myself into the ground. It was it was almost [00:00:10] a way of me coping, but also like coping with what I was going through at the time. But [00:00:15] it was also this connection that I had with every single client of mine. And I literally, [00:00:20] I can’t say yes to one client and no to another if I’m saying yes to a client. I had [00:00:25] to see every other client that day. And you’ve got to think it’s probably similar to actually maybe not [00:00:30] in dentistry because they’ve got their mouth wide open and can’t speak much, but but they take on a lot [00:00:35] of stress. You do, you do. Yeah. And I think that every hour you’re taking on somebody’s energy [00:00:40] and it’s mostly something like negative or something they’re going through in their life and you’re taking on this energy [00:00:45] and you need to give energy back to them, and no one’s giving you energy. Imagine [00:00:50] if you do that every single day, like mentally, you’re completely at a loss.

[VOICE]: This [00:01:00] is mind movers. [00:01:05] Moving the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation [00:01:10] for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:01:15] Eskander and Payman Langroudi. Hello [00:01:20] everyone!

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Welcome to Mind Movies, where we explore the journeys and insights of remarkable [00:01:25] individuals shaping their fields. Today we’re joined by Sana Shivani, a renowned personal [00:01:30] trainer whose work extends beyond the gym into empowering individuals with the tools that they need for mental [00:01:35] and physical wellness. Sana was actually my personal trainer. We met during lockdown. I saw [00:01:40] her walking down Warwick No near Warwick Avenue in Little Venice, and I’d also seen her at events. Okay, [00:01:45] you’d already seen each other at events and I was absolutely blown away by the work [00:01:50] she was doing. One of the things that attracted me to Sana is actually her work around mental health online. [00:01:55] She was someone that I followed before I had my own following. I had about 200 followers. She had about 10,000 [00:02:00] and this was all the way in 2015. Sana was a trailblazer [00:02:05] in the fitness space and she was somebody that I idolised. I wanted to have her body, [00:02:10] I wanted to have her face and I thought she was pretty incredible. Sana’s journey is one of inspiration, [00:02:15] resilience and dedication, touching the lives from Hollywood to everyday fitness enthusiasts. [00:02:20] Welcome, Sana. Thank you. An intro. Wow. Thank you. Oh [00:02:25] so lovely to be here. Yeah, it’s amazing to be here. And I feel like you were trying to tell everyone [00:02:30] why and how we met. Which Payman likes to know.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: So you can you can tell the world how we met. Okay, so actually, [00:02:35] we were at a, um. It was a party. It was the jewellers, wasn’t it? Jewellers? [00:02:40] Yes. No. Nima and that lot go to his parties, you know, like bougie [00:02:45] Iranian vibes, I don’t know. Yeah. Okay, so they had a massive party. I met Rona Naeem, a [00:02:50] couple of other guys at the party, and then lockdown happened, like, what, a week after [00:02:55] that? And then I saw her running with her boyfriend down the road near my house, and I was like, [00:03:00] very nice. So I saw that and then she got in contact with me basically. But yeah, we met out and [00:03:05] we just clicked from the first moment I actually thought you were Iranian. Yeah, everyone thinks I’m Iranian. I’ll take it to [00:03:10] the eyebrows. Um, no. Sana was amazing because she changed my [00:03:15] life. When it comes to fitness, I was very much about just burn calories and trying to lose weight. So [00:03:20] I started my journey into really, like, building muscle, doing training for like, [00:03:25] mindfulness and wellbeing and also like not over exercising and over doing [00:03:30] things bodies. And we spent a lot of time together because I was going to her house during lockdown and doing sessions, etc. you know, when [00:03:35] we were allowed to do all of that stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Am I right that you’ve had loads of trainers?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I’ve had a few [00:03:40] trainers, not loads actually. I’m actually, you know, I have real issues breaking up with my professional [00:03:45] people. Like I honestly like I can’t break better watch out. You know like honestly I can’t [00:03:50] break out, I can’t I found it really hard to break up with my therapist. And now that I have Ella, I’m like, [00:03:55] why did I stick to my therapist for so you know, when you suddenly are like, you just think it’s the way it is. [00:04:00] I’m sure people feel that about dentists. Like they go to dentists and they’re like, I’m just used to going to this person and they find someone they really love. [00:04:05] And they’re like, why the hell didn’t I break up with the other person much earlier, you know? So I had that with Sana a bit [00:04:10] like I had okay, personal trainers, but I think there was something to be said also about being [00:04:15] trained by a female, because I had a judgement against female trainers, only because I felt like they didn’t push [00:04:20] their clients as hard as male trainers. It was really weird, like I said, like I felt like being battered, you [00:04:25] know? But actually, there’s something to be said for someone that understands the female body and hormones, etc. [00:04:30] and also listening to your needs. So that was it. But Sana, I want you to [00:04:35] start from the beginning. I always get all of our, um, guests to come start from the beginning. And I want you to talk about your [00:04:40] early experiences, because just like me and Payman, you’re from a background, you’re Iranian, [00:04:45] I’m Middle Eastern, you know, we are used to growing up with being told that we should be [00:04:50] professionals. We know that your sister Zahra is well known as Zahra, the hygienist on [00:04:55] Instagram. Everyone knows. Yeah, everyone knows that Instagram likes favourites.

Payman Langroudi: One of my favourites. Oh, there we go.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Sorry. [00:05:00] Um, yeah. So we know that she works in dentistry. So [00:05:05] how did you basically, like, break the mould, you know, within your family? Tell us a bit about your [00:05:10] background, how you got into fitness okay, so I’m not going to lie, it was really, really hard. Like my dad is [00:05:15] a pretty conservative Iranian and he wanted me to either be a dentist, a doctor or a [00:05:20] lawyer. So it was one of the three and I just did. I didn’t have really any interest in [00:05:25] like sciences, English in school. I also didn’t have any interest in interests in PE, which [00:05:30] is really crazy because now I obviously love training, I love fitness, but I kid [00:05:35] you not, I was on my period every single day of the year for a whole year and to get out of PE classes, [00:05:40] I just I didn’t want to do it and I felt almost like a bit ashamed of my body. I didn’t want [00:05:45] to put my body in like gym care and yeah, sort of be out there, which is I think [00:05:50] that also comes from certain ways of speech when you’re growing up [00:05:55] and, you know, like parents being like, oh, don’t eat that. That’s really bad for you, or, um, only [00:06:00] providing, let’s say, bread and cheese, um, for breakfast and not having like, a varied diet growing [00:06:05] up. Um, but I think that’s when I was in [00:06:10] school, I didn’t really know what I wanted to do.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I went to university, I studied business management. The only [00:06:15] thing I was actually quite good at in school was business management. I took. Accounting, economics, and those are the subjects. I was [00:06:20] really good at that pull with that. Business management. Yes. Ish. Um, but [00:06:25] he always, always, and even to this day still says to me, take a conversion course into, [00:06:30] um, law. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Um, but I went to university, [00:06:35] and when I went to uni, I was that’s when I really started having, like, body issues, because when I was [00:06:40] in London, my parents were quite protective. When I was younger, I wasn’t allowed to sort [00:06:45] of like, go out and, you know, I wasn’t allowed to go to sleepovers with my friends or anything like [00:06:50] that. So I wasn’t really exposed to, like, the social side of the world that much. I went [00:06:55] to school, I came back, I lived a pretty chilled life. Um, when I went to uni, I was more exposed [00:07:00] to everything, and that’s when I started becoming hyper aware of my body. And I went to [00:07:05] uni in Cambridge and back in 2010, there was no [00:07:10] person of colour in sight in Cambridge like now. It’s a beautiful city, it’s multicultural. [00:07:15] Back then everyone was a skinny blonde girl and white, you know, [00:07:20] type. Yeah. Skinny white, blue [00:07:25] eyes. Um, and no offence to anyone who’s like skinny white blue eyes, [00:07:30] but I just felt like I was different and there was nobody that looked like me.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: There was nobody [00:07:35] that was like I was a little bit soft around the edges, and I wasn’t as toned and long and lean [00:07:40] as them. And I didn’t have long legs, and I just felt super insecure about my body. So [00:07:45] I started to go to the gym when I was in uni. Granted, I was still that person who would like go onto [00:07:50] the treadmill, do like a 20 minute run and be like, okay, I’ve done the gym. But then I started realising [00:07:55] that actually fuelling your body in the correct way is the way that you’re meant to sort of think [00:08:00] of training, exercise, nutrition and wellness as a whole. So I started just taking [00:08:05] up these like mini nutrition courses just on my own. In my spare time, I wasn’t really [00:08:10] interested in going out as much with like the uni law, and instead all I wanted to do was [00:08:15] learn about nutrition and learn about training. And that’s when I started going into like strength training and [00:08:20] understanding the benefits of strength training. So this is during uni, whilst this is during uni. Yeah. While I was [00:08:25] studying, then in my third year of uni, I started suffering with my own mental health quite a bit [00:08:30] and that’s when I realised actually this is a bit of a release for me.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: You know, going to the gym, having that [00:08:35] one hour to myself, being able to really just like do what I want to do, I know I’m doing something good for myself [00:08:40] was a bit of a release for me mentally. I also wouldn’t think about all my worries and [00:08:45] things like that when I’m, you know, in the gym training, so I started. At [00:08:50] that point, probably overtraining, you know, because you get like most people get into those cycles [00:08:55] where they’re like, I’m doing something so good for my mind and my body, and [00:09:00] you do it every single day, twice a day, sometimes if you have to, which obviously is very unhealthy. [00:09:05] Um, so I got the body that I sort of wanted or thought I wanted, and [00:09:10] I was still wasn’t happy. It wasn’t bringing me any sort of joy or fulfilment. [00:09:15] And after university, I really didn’t know what I wanted to do, job [00:09:20] wise, career wise. I didn’t really have a major interest in anything. I enjoyed business, it’s [00:09:25] such a broad subject. And so I got a sales [00:09:30] job in okay. Is it Moorgate in the city? Yeah. Yeah, I’m so bad with the city. Um, [00:09:35] so I got a job in Moorgate and I didn’t last more than I think it was like seven weeks. [00:09:40] And I was like, your dad freaking out? Yeah, he.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I came home one day and I was like, I’m just not going [00:09:45] back. It’s not for me. The central line. I can’t deal with it. I can’t deal with, like, the city workers, [00:09:50] anything like the office. Everyone’s just shouting and it’s so male dominated and I just [00:09:55] really hated it. So I just quit. I started working for my dad, so my dad works in property. My [00:10:00] dad thought that I was going to, like, work for him forever. And, you know, take the name [00:10:05] of the business and continue the continue the business as I get older. Um, but again, [00:10:10] I thought I was quite good at it because I dealt with like the lettings side of things. And I would like meet with [00:10:15] people. I would show them around houses, do all the contracts. It was a very [00:10:20] like it was a people skill that I had. I was really [00:10:25] good at speaking with people and getting them to whatever it was that I [00:10:30] was selling, getting them to sort of buy into that. And I enjoyed working with [00:10:35] people. I didn’t enjoy doing the office stuff. I didn’t enjoy sitting, writing, the contracts or anything like that, so [00:10:40] I was pretty good at it. But again, I would finish the working day and I would want nothing more but to go to [00:10:45] the gym and I would sit there in my breaks research and training methods, researching nutrition, and [00:10:50] it was all I cared about.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: So after about two and a half years of working for my dad, [00:10:55] I said to my dad, I’m going part time. I was like, why? Why are you going part time? Have you got another [00:11:00] job? What are you doing? Are you going to study law? And I’m like, uh, no, I’m just going to go and work at [00:11:05] this studio and I’m just going to do front of house. So you’re a dosser. You have no like, [00:11:10] I want the Iranian accent. I can do it. You know, I don’t Payman. That’s okay. [00:11:15] Go for it. Yeah, but to be fair, like, my dad’s [00:11:20] been here since he was, like, 13 years old. He’s been here for a very long time, and. But his [00:11:25] mentality is still very, very Iranian. So he was he was really not happy. But [00:11:30] by that age, I was like, this is what I want to do. And I can’t live a life where I’m not fulfilled every single [00:11:35] day. So I took that part time job and I started to slowly wean off my [00:11:40] dad and the work I was doing with him. We actually, like, fell out for a short period of time because [00:11:45] I obviously left the business and he never, ever took my work seriously, [00:11:50] actually, all the way up until I got my, like my deal with Under Armour [00:11:55] in 2017.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: And even then, he didn’t take it seriously. What were you working for other people [00:12:00] though, at this point? No, I was just doing front of house work, so I was literally [00:12:05] doing front of house work just to get my foot into the industry. And I was I was getting paid like £10 [00:12:10] an hour or something, and it was the most boring job. It was very small studio. It was a studio called Ten Health [00:12:15] and Fitness, but it was one of the smallest studios and it was predominantly [00:12:20] Pilates physio work. And I wouldn’t say I enjoyed it because I found it quite [00:12:25] boring. I wanted that side of the job where I’m like talking to people, interacting with people, and instead I got the computer [00:12:30] stuff, which I absolutely hate. Um, but anyway, so I [00:12:35] then started making that transition. I was now full time at ten. Health and fitness. And I [00:12:40] decided after I got my qualifications that I was going to get a mentor in the business. I got a mentor. [00:12:45] Who was it? Tyrone Barnard. He’s my patient. Oh. Is he. Yeah. Yeah. [00:12:50] He’s from. Well, yeah, he’s from Chelsea. Yeah. So, um, be the fittest [00:12:55] on Instagram. I think he still is. So I asked him to mentor me. Um, and I knew [00:13:00] I wasn’t. Did you just approach him? Because I think, like, that’s an important point because people often ask, how [00:13:05] do people, like, get what they want? And I think, like Payman, you probably remember when I first [00:13:10] met you, I had no problem.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: And just going out there and asking people so I’d find people that were inspiring [00:13:15] and be like, I’m just going to take a punt. Can you help me? Can you give me advice? And I’ll never forget you drove [00:13:20] me back all the way from Raphael’s practice in wherever it was, Hertfordshire. And [00:13:25] I just basically grilled him and I was a nobody. And Payman loved all the like, Dental geeks that were, like, [00:13:30] amazing at, like, stuff. And I was like, listen, I’m not one of those, but like, help me on this path. [00:13:35] And I think it’s a really important point to make. Like, if you don’t ask, you don’t get I think even [00:13:40] if you think you’re nobody compared to these like, people that you consider very [00:13:45] inspirational or aspirational, just ask. Yeah, I totally agree. If you don’t like [00:13:50] if you don’t ask, you don’t get. Yeah. And so I did just directly ask him. But we did [00:13:55] have a couple of mutual friends. So I knew of him. We didn’t really know each other personally. I knew a little bit of his [00:14:00] story and, um, we just got on. So I literally had that mindset. I was like, what is the [00:14:05] worst that’s going to happen? He’s going to say, no, I’m back to like where I currently am.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Yeah. Um, he [00:14:10] was really, really kind. He took me on and mentored me for like a whole year. He also gave me my first [00:14:15] ever client, so he gave me my first ever client. He was taking a cut and I was earning. Did you have a [00:14:20] PC qualification at this point? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did it all. Sort of like as I was working with my dad. [00:14:25] Yeah. So I remember oh my God. Now when I think about it, I’m like, I was such a shit [00:14:30] PC, but when you’re so young and you just feel like, you know, I [00:14:35] like I had that thing in my head. If I get a mentor who has done what I want to do, [00:14:40] has a successful business, can teach me the ropes, can teach me like the principles [00:14:45] that are really important, then maybe I can be where he is sort of at, you know, [00:14:50] you’ve got you you kind of want proof of, of the business like working from proof [00:14:55] of concept. Yeah. Proof of concept. So anyway, um, I had my first client from him. I remember [00:15:00] I would drive every single day from Saint John’s Wood to Ealing to do this one PT session with [00:15:05] this lady used to get a ticket every single time, because I always parked my car in the wrong place, so I’d make like no [00:15:10] money.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: But I did that solidly for like six months with that, [00:15:15] with that one lady. And then I was like, right, I’m going to start putting. Out there that I [00:15:20] am taking on clients and if they want, they can get in touch with me. And people just started [00:15:25] getting in touch with me. I think it was just where I was getting advice and education from, [00:15:30] like the people in my industry who had already done it. They could see that I was somebody who was hungry to learn. [00:15:35] I learnt a lot around strength training specifically for women and why it’s [00:15:40] so important, and that was literally one of the main factors that really drove [00:15:45] me in my business, because when I started learning about all these stats about women in menopause, women, [00:15:50] when even they even when women reached the age of 27 as young as 27, [00:15:55] you are so much more prone to osteoporosis as a female than you are as a male. As soon as you hit menopause, [00:16:00] 30% bigger drop than a male with all your muscle, your bone density. [00:16:05] When you hear that your grandmothers just had a random thought, that’s because her knees, her ankles, [00:16:10] her core can’t support her, she hasn’t got stability. And all of those things [00:16:15] really, really drove me to learn as much as I could about the human body, [00:16:20] about strength training females and then being able to sort of apply it.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: And I think [00:16:25] where people started realising that I was talking some sort of sense is [00:16:30] because I was putting this education out there on my platform. Back then, there wasn’t that many like fitness influencers, [00:16:35] and I was, um, but this is also like the era where people were really concerned [00:16:40] because obviously when I found your profile. Yeah, to be honest, like, I had disordered eating, as you know, [00:16:45] and like body dysmorphia. So I wanted to be as skinny as you like. That’s why I followed you. [00:16:50] Wasn’t because, like, I was like, wow, this girl is like. And you even said that was a really unhealthy weight where [00:16:55] you were at that point and you said it was unsustainable. So like, was there not an [00:17:00] element at that time because conversations, I mean, I have to still educate Payman all the time on this. [00:17:05] And it was there not there. Was there not an element of like conversations around the fact that actually [00:17:10] this size of body is not necessarily sustainable nor healthy. But were you educated [00:17:15] enough at that point? See, at that time, no, because the majority of the fitness industry, [00:17:20] which was quite small at that time online, were all like that, like they all went [00:17:25] down that road of, um, like she was she was eating between [00:17:30] 2016 to 2018. That’s when like the fitness industry really started. Like, are [00:17:35] you.

Payman Langroudi: Saying that there was almost the fashion was to be super skinny and now the fashion is to be a.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Bit more? No, [00:17:40] I think that I think at that time people started becoming more engaged with [00:17:45] training as they did, that it’s so natural. If you’ve never trained before and you [00:17:50] become obsessed with it, for you to go overboard and over train and under eat because you’re seeing these results, [00:17:55] you’re feeling great. But eventually there will be a catch. You’ll either get injured, something will happen with your [00:18:00] hormones. Something will happen with your body because it is so unsustainable. But at the time, [00:18:05] the whole of the fitness industry, the way I knew it back then, was almost like that. [00:18:10] Like there wasn’t that many people in the industry. I think unfortunately, we’ve taken a couple of steps back [00:18:15] like, this is my $0.02 into it. Like I grew up in 90s, 2000. I told you I went to university. [00:18:20] I was completely like comfortable. My parents always told me to lose weight because again, [00:18:25] they’re like, they were of that ilk that like the skinny you are, you look like better not blaming them. That was what they grew [00:18:30] up with. Then I went to university, got like scouted to do modelling quite a lot, and then [00:18:35] the girls that I lived with, which were white boarding school [00:18:40] eating disorders were like part of life, were like, oh, you better lose some weight. You’ve got a casting, oh, [00:18:45] your legs are too big for this. Or like, oh. So all of a sudden I was like, oh my God, you know, like I need to [00:18:50] lose weight. And I really wanted to fit in. I wanted to be part of the crowd. I wanted to feel like I belonged. So [00:18:55] I went into like, under-eating overexercising. Exercising for me was just [00:19:00] like walking on a treadmill or a cross trainer. Yeah, to burn as many calories. Exactly. And that was kind of the vibe. [00:19:05] And then I go out and I was really like my ribs were protruding, my arms were.

Payman Langroudi: Like thin, was heroin chic [00:19:10] and all that. Correct.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: And then obviously I got the validation. But then I also got to a point where people like, she looks really ill, because obviously, [00:19:15] like my top half is pretty skinny. So it looked really unwell, you know. Anyway, then [00:19:20] what happened was I like I said, I came to London, I worked and I started putting [00:19:25] on the weight. And the thing is, I put on a lot of weight, and the reason why I put on a lot of weight is because my body wasn’t used to food, [00:19:30] but I couldn’t work without food. So I take a bite of something and suddenly five kilos, [00:19:35] I mean, you know, and I was like binging, restricting, binging, restricting. And so like, I went through [00:19:40] like a period of, like real self-loathing. Then Sana obviously educated me. I think we were lucky [00:19:45] because also like a bunch of influencers came out that were like, muscle is sexy, [00:19:50] tone is sexy. You can have like, you can be like curvy but toned, you know? I mean, that’s another [00:19:55] thing. Narrative started changing now. And I think the biggest thing is, is as Mpic, which I’ve [00:20:00] told Sana about and I think like people now are taking these [00:20:05] injections to restrict their appetite. And they’re already thin. They’re already [00:20:10] thin. It’s but it’s quite worrying because I have a friend of mine who’s a GP and she [00:20:15] said there has been an increase in the amount of people in.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: In the A&E waiting room because [00:20:20] of the zenpix because people are sorry. I find this so, so crazy. [00:20:25] The reason why I find it crazy is because, look, I think it’s great that there’s something like ozempic [00:20:30] on the market for the people who need it. Um, feel about it, right? Yeah. [00:20:35] Of course. Yeah. For your general population, if you are going on a zembic to lose weight, you [00:20:40] will lose weight, right? However, the majority of that will come from your muscle. Do [00:20:45] you know how unhealthy that is for your body? Then you are firstly, when you take your [00:20:50] calories so low, which is what happens when you’re on a ozempic, your metabolism starts to really slow [00:20:55] down. And that’s why after when you come off it, as soon as you eat anything, you will [00:21:00] put on weight. You will put on weight because your metabolism has massively slowed down. So now your set point [00:21:05] is so low, your maintenance calories just to maintain your body is so low. So you’ve got to be [00:21:10] able to take that back up to its normal like maintenance to be able to [00:21:15] not put on weight. And that’s not even my problem with it. The problem is that there’s so many bad things that happen [00:21:20] internally just in terms of like your muscles.

Payman Langroudi: And that Joe Rogan clip.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Tell [00:21:25] me, tell me, tell me where.

Payman Langroudi: Well, the guy was saying that they didn’t have to do these tests for [00:21:30] the FDA clearance or whatever, but he realised people are losing weight, but they’re becoming fatter, like [00:21:35] their their fat to like muscle.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Muscle. Yes. Muscle fat percentage. Yeah. So [00:21:40] like any weight that they have will be fat rather than muscle. Yeah. And that’s really. [00:21:45]

Payman Langroudi: You know the, the job itself of being a personal [00:21:50] trainer. She look Ronan’s just made it clear there’s a massive mental element to that. So like [00:21:55] what do you call them. Clients. Yeah. Client comes in. You’ve got to unpick the [00:22:00] whole mental side. And you know they’re essentially they’re there for their physical side. Right. [00:22:05] But the mental side is really important right. As she’s just shown. But then also I’m quite interested. [00:22:10] We were talking to Artur about this. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Oh yeah Sonia introduced me to Artur. Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Really. Yeah. [00:22:15] So how much of your value add is your knowledge and how much of your [00:22:20] value add is your delivery? Yeah, because it’s a massive thing dentistry as well. Right. You know, you can be the best [00:22:25] dentist but not have the best chance.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Right. Can I just interject there, Sonia. Like, listen, Payman [00:22:30] always jokes. He’s like, Rona doesn’t hang out with normal people. She doesn’t know normal people. Like, [00:22:35] I pick the special ones.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t say it as a compliment.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I know, he says it’s a really bad thing. You know, I like I [00:22:40] know that, I know, but I’m just saying to you, you’ve got it all wrong. It’s because I like I naturally gravitate [00:22:45] to people that I know are the best at what they do. And in terms of like, I’m not talking about [00:22:50] just the skill they provide, but the heart that they do it with. And like, that’s why I said to you, the same with Ella. [00:22:55] Sonia is special. And once I when I started like raving about her, she suddenly had [00:23:00] like a billion dentists. She still laughs about this because she literally changed. Changed my life in lockdown. [00:23:05] Yeah. No. But like she literally started training so many dentists because they believed me and [00:23:10] they were seeing the results on my socials. But it’s because she has that compassion and understanding, [00:23:15] you know, and I sometimes got told by personal trainers I wasn’t being strict enough, I wasn’t working hard enough, [00:23:20] or I was like, she’d be like, you’re having a bad day. Let’s do something low intensity. Do [00:23:25] you know what I mean? Like, she has the special touch. The thing is, with personal training, it is something [00:23:30] it’s. You spend a lot of time with that person and you get to know them. And I think that there’s [00:23:35] a huge part of it that is completely a mental side of it, rather than a physical [00:23:40] side. And naturally, I’m quite a big empath, but I have become more and more empathetic [00:23:45] as the years have gone, gone by and it. It almost [00:23:50] works to my detriment sometimes because I’m in a situation where I literally can’t stop myself, [00:23:55] but feeling something that my client is feeling when they’re explaining something to me, and then I’m like, but am I doing [00:24:00] my job properly? Because actually I should be training them and I shouldn’t be sitting here like feeling with them. [00:24:05] But it is a huge part of my job. Personally, I think because of how vocal I’ve been around [00:24:10] mental health on my socials over the years, I think I attract a certain type of client. [00:24:15]

Payman Langroudi: Do you only train women?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: No, no. So even the men that I [00:24:20] train, I still think they fall within this bucket of people who are in touch with them. [00:24:25] Their own mental health may be struggling at the time and have, you know, [00:24:30] reached out to me in order to help their physical health, but then actually see such [00:24:35] an improvement in their mental health. I think, like, I’ve got this one client, he’s male. [00:24:40] He contacted me at a time where both his parents had passed away [00:24:45] within like a six month period, and it was also a time where my cousin [00:24:50] passed away as well. And then within we sort of met at that time together, [00:24:55] and he was in a really bad place, and I wasn’t in the greatest place either. And it [00:25:00] was more how we were mentally helping each other through that time that actually got [00:25:05] the results that he even got physically. He’s like, imagine if you [00:25:10] hate the gym and you decide to go to the gym.

Payman Langroudi: I do hate the gym.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I [00:25:15] say, um, but no, imagine you [00:25:20] really hate the gym. You decide to reach out to a personal trainer and go to the gym, and [00:25:25] you still hate the gym after two weeks, but you start noticing certain things in your head is a little bit clearer. You can [00:25:30] think through things a little bit better. You’ve just got this like spark in your mind that isn’t as negative as always. [00:25:35] Then you start to think, okay, well, this must be good for me, and you start doing it [00:25:40] more. Then your results actually become a by-product. And I do have a lot of clients that that is the way [00:25:45] around. You know, it’s first the mental change and the physical change is just a by-product and it just happens. [00:25:50] And it’s a long time. Like I was looking at photos of me from like ten years ago and [00:25:55] I was like, oh my God. Like, I’ve changed. I’m actually proud of myself. As in, like, I’ve got so [00:26:00] much more muscle tone and stuff. And I was like, but that took me ten years because now I don’t go into the gym [00:26:05] with any goal, just go to the gym. Do you see what I mean? Yeah, yeah. But I would say also [00:26:10] it takes its toll on the trainer as well because.

Payman Langroudi: Like a psychiatrist, [00:26:15] right. You take it on other people’s. Yeah. Stress.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: At one point in life I was doing like 10 [00:26:20] to 12 sessions a day, every day, seven days a week. And I was literally [00:26:25] like pushing myself into the ground. It was it was almost a way of me coping, but [00:26:30] also like coping with what I was going through at the time. But it was also this [00:26:35] connection that I had with every single client of mine. And I literally, I can’t say yes to one client and [00:26:40] no to another if I’m saying yes to a client. I had to see every other client that day. [00:26:45] And you’ve got to think it’s probably similar to actually maybe not in dentistry because they’ve got their mouth wide open [00:26:50] and can’t speak much, but but they take on a lot of stress. You do, you do. Yeah. [00:26:55] And I think that every hour you’re taking on somebody’s energy and it’s mostly something like [00:27:00] negative or something they’re going through in their life and you’re taking on this energy and you need to give energy [00:27:05] back to them. And no one’s giving you energy. Someone’s either draining your energy [00:27:10] and you’re draining it yourself by giving that energy back to them. But like, no. [00:27:15]

Payman Langroudi: That up day after day after day.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: No one’s filling up your cup. Yeah. So if imagine if you do that [00:27:20] every single day, like mentally you’re completely at a loss. Like I literally got [00:27:25] to the point where I could not get out of my bed to go to work. I literally could not move. [00:27:30] And I had this guilt in my head about not being able to train my clients or [00:27:35] see my clients. I had to start them being a bit honest with my clients when I got to that really negative place. But [00:27:40] it’s it’s a massive balancing act that I think new pets need to be really, really [00:27:45] wary of. Like now I’m so much better and I have boundaries and I have to protect my own mental [00:27:50] health to be able to help you with your physical and mental, you know?

Payman Langroudi: But also, Otto was saying things [00:27:55] like, he has to know what’s going on in the news, what’s going on in business, because the, you know, he’s [00:28:00] a high net worth whatever CEO of a company says something about a board meeting. [00:28:05] Otto has to be able to answer that question. Yeah, yeah. And I never would have thought that.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Yeah, [00:28:10] but I think.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the value add he gives to those people.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: 100%. But I think it’s so interesting as well, [00:28:15] like your clientele is you’ve got to know your niche, your clients. Right. And when [00:28:20] I started building my 1 to 1 business, I got like my niche was the more higher [00:28:25] net worth, sort of like business owners or like, yeah, high net worth people that could afford [00:28:30] my services. And I had tough conversations with these people. But I [00:28:35] want to rewind a little bit before we get on to that, because Sonja was working for a very well known [00:28:40] gym company, um, where actually I think that you could say it was almost [00:28:45] like a cult. Yeah. I’m not going to mention who it is. And then, um, she met. A lot of big parts [00:28:50] that were out there, etc. but one of the reasons why Sana [00:28:55] actually quit, even though it made her meet a sort of bunch of clients, is because of their [00:29:00] ethics and values. So the real turning point was this company during Black [00:29:05] Lives Matter, had a lot of black personal trainers, but they didn’t do anything [00:29:10] on their social media to support their trainers, to make a statement, to do anything like that. And [00:29:15] then Sana felt very passionately about that. So all those trainers left during lockdown [00:29:20] for that reason.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: And then Sana soon followed suit. And I think that’s really interesting, because [00:29:25] I think that it’s really hard to stand up for your own, like [00:29:30] values and ethics, especially in a corporate company that’s quite like successful. So do you want to tell us a bit about [00:29:35] that? Agreed. And also coming from I never thought I could make it in this industry because [00:29:40] when I first started in this industry, firstly no one looked like me. Secondly, I was like, [00:29:45] right, when you see like a name of a brand, sorry, like [00:29:50] a influencer of any type, like representing a brand, it’s always like Sarah Davis, [00:29:55] sorry. To your name, Sarah Davis, she’s on Dragons Den. Dead. Oh, that’s what I got. Yeah, but, [00:30:00] like, it’s such a white name. I was like, Sana Shivani, it’s never really going to be up in lights, [00:30:05] is it? Yeah. Like it’s just never. I just never saw it as. Because I’ve got a foreign name [00:30:10] and, you know, I’m just not going to get the jobs that everyone else gets. And building myself [00:30:15] to the point that I was when I was a part of this company was like, it’s quite a big step for me to to leave [00:30:20] and be like, okay, well, I don’t know what I’m going to do after this.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I’ve got my own client base, [00:30:25] but that was where I trained them. And I think for me, being [00:30:30] in a service based industry, you also have to service your employees to an [00:30:35] extent as well. And I think that in our industry, employees and personal [00:30:40] trainers give so much to the company, so much to their clients, and it was just the bare minimum, [00:30:45] you know, to be vocal about something that that obviously we all feel very strongly about. So [00:30:50] there was a group of us that decided to leave. I was one of them. Um, and you’d never been freelance [00:30:55] before, is it? Not? Like, I know, like within a gym, but as in, like just. Well, that was when I was, like, completely [00:31:00] freelance. I’m still freelance while I was working there, but I was obviously I had certain classes that I was teaching at [00:31:05] the time and things like that. So I had a regular income then. But then shortly after that, I got my job at Disney [00:31:10] and it sort of all worked out. What do you think this comes.

Payman Langroudi: From, this sort of idealistic things? I’ve seen that [00:31:15] in your sister as well. Very sort of fixed based, idealistic. Come [00:31:20] to your parents?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I think it comes from my parents.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s do it.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Yeah, yeah. Um, I [00:31:25] think that same thing we talked about this immigrant thing. Yeah. Like my dad.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone, [00:31:30] not every immigrant would do it, though.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: But I think it’s like, I don’t know, like, I think we have this, like, DNA to kind of, [00:31:35] like, really perform and do well.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s not what she’s done, though. She’s left her job. Yeah. [00:31:40] For a for a point of, you know, ethics. Yeah. I can see many immigrants keeping [00:31:45] their head down and considering it’s an immigrant thing.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Farnese’s son is not afraid as well. I mean, she’s [00:31:50] been very vocal about lots of political things. I just think I’m quite like I’m quite a straight [00:31:55] up person as well. Like, sometimes I get myself into trouble. My mom’s like, why are you saying things like so directly? [00:32:00] I cannot, I’m very bad at being diplomatic. And even when I’m like [00:32:05] vocal about like, things going on in the world and stuff, I’m like, have I said that really directly? Should I not, [00:32:10] you know, because I, I’m just a very direct person. I think it’s sometimes the best [00:32:15] way to be because you just otherwise I will constantly be trying [00:32:20] to please people and I’ll constantly be picking my views, my opinions under the carpet. If not, [00:32:25] um, but I do think it comes from my parents as well. My dad is a very, very strong character, very strong [00:32:30] character. He was a workaholic growing up, and I think I’ve also like got that trait from him as well. Yeah, [00:32:35] because you’re working with seven days a week. Um, but Sana, one of the major things I mean, we’ve talked [00:32:40] about, you know, your career trajectory, but I think one of the things that really shaped you is [00:32:45] what happened to your cousin.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: And I think that also had a huge impact on your physical health, because that’s something [00:32:50] that you told me. Yeah. And I think, you know, it’s something that we have touched on before on my [00:32:55] movies. And, you know, I really appreciate that you’re going to talk about this, but can we talk about your cousin [00:33:00] and what had happened and how that shaped you? Yeah. So my cousin at the time was [00:33:05] 25 years old, male. He was a year younger than me at the time. So we were like [00:33:10] the closest cousins in age from the top. My sister’s older and, um, [00:33:15] it, I was at the [00:33:20] ear, nose and throat hospital, I think, in Charing Cross. And, um, I was [00:33:25] having an argument with my dad, and I was in the hospital waiting for something. I was on the phone to my dad, and I was [00:33:30] having an argument, and he said that my cousin’s name is Abbas. Um, [00:33:35] he said, well, Abbas is dead. I just didn’t believe him, but it didn’t even cross my mind that [00:33:40] this was a true statement. I was arguing with him about something, so I just put the phone down and that [00:33:45] was that.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: And then I got in a taxi and I was like, hold on, did he just say Abbas [00:33:50] is dead? Like, surely not. So I took the taxi. I told him to go back [00:33:55] to the hospital. My mum was there, my sister was there, and then I just walked [00:34:00] in and I was like, what do you mean? Abbas is dead and. [00:34:05] Like I could just tell by their faces everything. It was true. And I [00:34:10] literally remember the moment I just dropped to the ground. And I was like, no, [00:34:15] no, like fucking. He like how, how like, how can he be dead? Um, [00:34:20] and then I started putting two and two together and I [00:34:25] rang his dad. And I remember I was outside speaking to his dad, [00:34:30] and, um, I was just like, I didn’t know what to say. I was just, like, crying. I [00:34:35] remember a stranger came up to me and gave me a hug, and it was just I remember the exact [00:34:40] moment. But basically he was really struggling with his mental health and he. Um. [00:34:45] It was the night of my birthday. He committed suicide, and. [00:34:50] Also within like my family, who are quite conservative. [00:34:55] That’s like such a like what?

Payman Langroudi: No taboo.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Taboo thing. Yeah. [00:35:00] Initially, my family didn’t want to tell the rest of the family, like they were like, we [00:35:05] can’t say it’s suicide. Like, what do you mean? Like, what do you mean you cannot say it’s suicide? [00:35:10] Um. So I had like a major effect on me. [00:35:15] My mental health. And that’s when I started working seven days a week. So I used [00:35:20] my work as a coping mechanism because I was around people and I thought, you know what? If I’m [00:35:25] around a client, I can’t break down. I can’t, you know, it’s a show [00:35:30] sort of thing. I used to also teach classes back then. So I’d go into like my class [00:35:35] and be like, right, it’s a 45 minute show and I’m just going to put on a show and give these people the best time of their lives for the next [00:35:40] hour. And that’s just like me not thinking about everything. I did that for like [00:35:45] a very long period, and I remember I could feel I was like internally breaking down, breaking down, breaking [00:35:50] down. Like, how much longer can I go on like this? And then I spoke to a friend who [00:35:55] was I didn’t really understand my own mental health then. I didn’t really understand what [00:36:00] was going on in my mind. I didn’t realise, like, why I’m having these conversations with myself. [00:36:05] Almost in my brain. I feel like there’s two voices. And then my friend said, like, you’ve [00:36:10] literally right now you are in a very depressed state and you have to treat your [00:36:15] depression as a real illness.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: And she [00:36:20] said something to me and it’s always stuck with me. If you had, like, broken your knee, you [00:36:25] would not be able to go to work. You’d have to call work up and you’d have to say, look, I’ve got a broken leg and I cannot come [00:36:30] to work. You’ve got a broken head right now. Like, mentally you’re not okay, and you need to [00:36:35] call work and just tell them that you need some time off. I didn’t do that because I [00:36:40] didn’t want to. I wanted to, like, continue. And I was just like. But then I’ll be at home and I’ll be with my mind and [00:36:45] like all of these things. So I continued working. And at the time, this [00:36:50] is something that like, I’ve never really publicly said. F off. But I [00:36:55] used to be addicted to weed. And I know that, like, some people are like, oh [00:37:00] yeah, it’s fine. Like you smoked a spliff every now and then, like it’s okay. No, I was addicted. [00:37:05] Like only now. Over the past, like few years, I’ve been like, right, I have an addiction. [00:37:10] I was an addict, but I was smoking it every day for a good part of like 8 to 10 [00:37:15] years, every single night. It was a way of me [00:37:20] numbing my brain, numbing my body, being able to sleep, [00:37:25] being able to sort of like that last portion of the day when you get home [00:37:30] and you get into bed and you’re like, everything goes through your mind.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I would numb that portion, [00:37:35] so I’d wake up and I’d go again. I was literally on autopilot. But that’s what they define as an [00:37:40] addiction, right? Like it’s a an escapism. Gabor Maté was talking about [00:37:45] someone from the Rolling Stones or some kind of famous band, and people [00:37:50] couldn’t understand why this person was a heroin addict. And Gabor Maté said that when [00:37:55] he heard an interview, they said to escape the reality of their mind, and that is sometimes [00:38:00] so deep for someone, and we don’t understand that. I also think weed is a really interesting thing [00:38:05] because I’ve never tried, as you know, any drugs or anything like that. But weed [00:38:10] for me is really interesting because one of the reasons I was really deterred from even trying it is because I actually [00:38:15] saw people’s minds completely go from weed, like from over excessive [00:38:20] smoking, like they became hyper paranoid, didn’t do anything with their life. I’m talking about ten years plus. [00:38:25] That really scared me to be honest, you know, and I really saw the impact of that. So it’s quite interesting because they’re talking [00:38:30] about legalising it in so many places.

Payman Langroudi: Is misuse of anything. A misuse of exercise can damage [00:38:35] you, but.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: When you’re addicted, it’s misuse, right. And I, I got to the point where I [00:38:40] was scared that I’d literally lose my whole business. I was like, I am smoking so much that if [00:38:45] I put one block in the wrong place, I could. Everything could collapse [00:38:50] and I could lose everything. And it was I actually, um, had to take myself. [00:38:55] I didn’t tell anyone. I got an Airbnb. Um, and I took myself away to, like, the countryside [00:39:00] with no access to weed and no access to anything. And that’s [00:39:05] how I started coming off it, as well as a lot of therapy and all of that. But that’s how I started, because I couldn’t [00:39:10] do it in my own environment because I associated my environment with smoking.

Payman Langroudi: Was your cousin [00:39:15] suicide? What started? Yeah.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Um, it didn’t start it. [00:39:20] No. Exacerbated. Exacerbated it massively.

Payman Langroudi: And you know how anytime anyone [00:39:25] passes away, guilt seems to just come into even whichever way anyone passes away, [00:39:30] the question of should have spent more time with them or whatever. Yeah, but when it’s suicide, that becomes [00:39:35] particularly poignant. Did you have guilt?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Massively. Um, the Christmas [00:39:40] that I go to my cousin’s house every Christmas, we do Christmas at his house. That Christmas, before he [00:39:45] passed away, which was 15 days before he passed away. I didn’t go to Essex. He lives in Essex. [00:39:50] I couldn’t make it. And for [00:39:55] years I literally, like, had this massive guilt. I was like, I didn’t make it. Maybe [00:40:00] if I went because I actually, like, also go through my own mental health, maybe I would have seen something. [00:40:05] Maybe I would have like noticed something. And only when [00:40:10] I went through a lot of therapy and Rhona helped me a lot, [00:40:15] kind of working through all of the grief and the emotions, the guilt. Only [00:40:20] then I was like, I knew, like only now I can say, I know that regardless [00:40:25] of anything that was in his head, you know, like, and I’m not saying every single suicide case [00:40:30] is like this because I don’t think it is, but I know for a fact that [00:40:35] that was not a decision in a split second that was thought through. [00:40:40] There was conversations. We took him to the GP for depression. He was a doctor. [00:40:45] Yeah. He was four months away from finishing his PhD. He was younger [00:40:50] than me. He was 25. He had a brand new Audi sitting in the driveway. Hadn’t even insured it. Beautiful [00:40:55] girlfriend, beautiful girl.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: He’s half Ray and half English like. Stunning blue eyes. [00:41:00] Gorgeous, gorgeous boy. And no, like the life of the party, no one would have ever, ever known. [00:41:05] But they say, you know, like sometimes, like the loudest in the room. You [00:41:10] bring the most. Like I sent Payman this video. I’m sure you’ve seen it about those two men at a football game. [00:41:15] And they’re like in their like 50s. 60s. Yeah. And you see the one that’s like really happy and exciting, the [00:41:20] one that’s a little bit like grumpy. And in the end, it’s the one that seems the happiest. And that’s [00:41:25] why it’s like, you know, you never know what people are going through. Absolutely. You know you never know. And it’s like be kind [00:41:30] like I like that’s like the motto that I think is so, so, so important 100% [00:41:35] because you know, like, again, this is this wasn’t my cousin’s situation, [00:41:40] but let’s say if there was somebody and someone was like, they were on their way home and [00:41:45] they got spoken to in a certain way, or somebody said something that really got to them, like [00:41:50] they could then go and make decisions like that. And that’s why I really live by that as well. You’ve really got to be kind [00:41:55] because you just don’t know what people are going through.

Payman Langroudi: So I know, look, this is going to sound ridiculous, but in a way, [00:42:00] what good came of it did you do you now treasure people more?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I [00:42:05] think you do a lot of mental health work, especially for male suicide. Yes. Yeah. [00:42:10] So I work with, um, a few charities. I still want to do so much more though. I work [00:42:15] with a few charities, um, for around mental health. And I specifically want to go into helping [00:42:20] children in schools because I don’t think there’s the support or the resources. And I think that [00:42:25] it depends like what kind of family you come from. You might not be open to speaking about your problems [00:42:30] and your issues with your parents, and I think there needs to be a bit more support around that. I [00:42:35] also just like want to raise more awareness. And, you know, I try and raise awareness with charities. I [00:42:40] try and go on, um, like charitable events and things like that. But I think [00:42:45] the good that came from it is I became like I was already an empathetic person, but I [00:42:50] really became a lot more compassionate towards people. I really, really understood that [00:42:55] everyone is fucking fighting a battle of some sort.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve all got some [00:43:00] sort of mental illness.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. But do you really think that. Yeah. Honestly. Because, [00:43:05] you know, it’s so funny, like I really stepped into the whole idea of like, vulnerability being [00:43:10] a superpower. Did you see my post today? No. Have you seen it? No. So I was quite nervous about [00:43:15] posting it because it was like these like Instagram is a highlight reel of your life [00:43:20] and I’m just going to show you my like, non-glamorous behind the scenes. And there’s basically like five photos [00:43:25] of like things that I’ve been struggling with and people have, like, responded in a way that I didn’t [00:43:30] imagine and like, even like, like really cool, like people that I didn’t like, [00:43:35] you know, like people that like archetypally like, have a perfect life. And they were like, thank you so much. Like, [00:43:40] this makes you, like, even better of a human being because I’m there, like, showing, like really uncool, [00:43:45] unsexy, unglamorous parts of me that affect my mental health.

Payman Langroudi: Like [00:43:50] what? What did.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: You do? So I talked about like the fact that, like, for example, I, [00:43:55] you know, I lost my hair last year because of stress. And I show the kind of like bald patches [00:44:00] and how I think about it all the time. I showed the fact that I suddenly, like, developed [00:44:05] like acne last year as well because of the chronic fatigue that I often showed [00:44:10] a photo of, like me, like having a mental breakdown because I feel like I haven’t done enough, I haven’t achieved enough, showed [00:44:15] a photo of my body and was like, you know, I have body image anxiety [00:44:20] because people always tell me that, like, my body is flawed and like I just opened up and it was people [00:44:25] were like, this is so relatable. And I think the fact is, is that we just don’t have enough of these open [00:44:30] conversations, recognising that we all have our things that really, truly [00:44:35] affect us in different ways. Like, I’m not even there yet, but I think I imagine as well, like even like as [00:44:40] a father and a husband, as a wife and as a mother. Like there’s a whole other realm layer [00:44:45] to like your mental health, you know what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: Your body image issues have really surprised [00:44:50] the hell out of me now.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Like, they know they have breakdowns. They have breakdowns too.

Payman Langroudi: It’s really [00:44:55] made me realise, like it’s made me see the world in a whole different way. The fact that you’ve got body image issues. Yeah, it [00:45:00] really has. And then also, you know, the conversations we were having about, uh, um, [00:45:05] talking to your younger self. Yeah. So I took a wrong turn on my [00:45:10] on my lime bike, and I ended up right outside the first school that we [00:45:15] went to when we came from revolution in Iran, we ran away from Iran, came to Phillips [00:45:20] and off Gloucester Road. Yeah. And, um, I saw this school and I just [00:45:25] went up the stairs, really, and I, and I, and I had a little conversation with little five year old. [00:45:30] Oh, my son and I never thought I had any sort of mental problem [00:45:35] with it. Yeah, but but it really helped me, you know, like, you know, like everything’s going to be okay because [00:45:40] I was like, you know, in a new country, new school, new language, new everything. Yeah. I love that interesting portrait. [00:45:45]

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Yeah. Uh, but. [00:45:50] So, Sana, I want to, um, also move on. So now we all know that you are a celebrity trainer. So the amazing [00:45:55] thing was, Payman that you asked, like, what is it about you? But she was. She’s one of those people that people [00:46:00] started talking about her in the industry. So she was getting approached, you know, I mean, it’s like you didn’t put that much effort, but [00:46:05] people were like, do you want to go and be the personal trainer on Disney? You know what I mean? Like things like, did land in your lap [00:46:10] a little bit because of the hard work and because of the reputation that you had. So there she was on the [00:46:15] set of Little Mermaid. Can you imagine with like the likes of Javier Bardem, Hayley like [00:46:20] the whole lot, travelling with them, filming the whole of, like, The Little Mermaid, you know? Incredible. So [00:46:25] do you want to tell us a little bit about that? Yeah. So, um, yeah. Like [00:46:30] Rowena mentioned, I got approached for that job. Um, it was off a recommendation. They were actually, I think, looking for [00:46:35] a female strength trainer because the main, um, costs. She was quite young when she first started [00:46:40] the job. So it all happened really quickly. I got approached, I thought it was one [00:46:45] of these, like, spam emails that come through your Instagram.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Um, and then I went over [00:46:50] to the to Pinewood, had an interview with the producer, and it sort of really [00:46:55] happened overnight. I got an email that night like it was a Friday night, 5:00, [00:47:00] I got that email. And then by the time it was the Monday, I was like signing my contract. But [00:47:05] like that job specifically, I was in charge of eight cast members. [00:47:10] They weren’t all full time. Um, so you had sort of like the mermaid Prince. Um, and then you’ve got everyone [00:47:15] else who’s, um, around that it was a really big job. It was meant to be a nine month [00:47:20] job, ended up being a two year job because of Covid. So Covid happened on the first day of opening [00:47:25] production. But then we were quite lucky that after [00:47:30] the first sort of like Covid lockdown, production companies were one of the first to be able to open [00:47:35] back up. We were getting tested every day. It was like working at Disney, coming back home, seeing my [00:47:40] clients. It was just a mad, mad period of time. But I found the job [00:47:45] quite intense actually, and a lot of people think they’re always like, oh, tell us all about Disney and like, [00:47:50] tell us about, you know, training all of these stars.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: And I think, um, it’s a lot more glamorised [00:47:55] than it is to put it quite like you hated it. I remember I had a really tough time. [00:48:00] I was solely in charge of the training, the nutrition, [00:48:05] and I had sort of like someone who was above me, [00:48:10] sort of like playing to the power trips of the way things work. And [00:48:15] I started to feel really uncomfortable in the position that I was within. I had [00:48:20] someone who was older, male, had a bit more power than me, constantly around me. And [00:48:25] um, the long and short of it is that it was a big harassment case and [00:48:30] sexual assault case, and I’ve also never spoken about this publicly [00:48:35] again. Now I can, because everything has been sort of dealt with and I’ve [00:48:40] worked through it and I’ve come to a place of like acceptance with it. But it had such [00:48:45] a huge impact on my confidence on just me as a person. I [00:48:50] became like a shell of myself there. Like when I look back now at my time there, it [00:48:55] I can’t, I don’t even recognise the person that was there. I yeah, [00:49:00] I found it really difficult. Basically the production, um, the production guys asked me to write [00:49:05] out a document of evidence and things, and it was like a 26 page document that [00:49:10] my best friend helped me with.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: It was all writing like it had links to like a Dropbox for any [00:49:15] imagery. So there was a lot, a lot there. I handed that in on the Friday, and [00:49:20] um, on the Saturday I got a call from the production team saying [00:49:25] that, oh my God, we can’t believe you were kind of like going through all of this. And we can’t believe you’ve not said [00:49:30] anything until now. And we’re really, really sorry. And we’re going to fire him straight away. Now [00:49:35] looking back at the situation, firing him without telling him what he’s done, [00:49:40] without telling any other department. What he’s done was just a way to sweep it under the carpet [00:49:45] and shut me up, and the effect that it had on me. I was having physical panic [00:49:50] attacks on set. The nurse who was on set had to take me into like an ambulance to get [00:49:55] my ECG done and everything. They put me on antidepressants, the doctor on [00:50:00] Disney, um, the doctor on set, he gave me Xanax. [00:50:05] He gave me all of these drugs because I literally couldn’t go to work without being in, [00:50:10] like, such a high state of anxiety and panic.

Payman Langroudi: Want to talk about what was actually [00:50:15] happening.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: So it was, um, sexual harassment [00:50:20] and. Well, Payman means was it like messages? Was he trying it on set? [00:50:25] Was it okay? So it was verbal in person as well as messages as well as pictures [00:50:30] as well as situations of making me feel really, really uncomfortable, like [00:50:35] just a very small example. So we don’t get into everything. I was single [00:50:40] for like four years at the time. He knew I was single for four years, and he would say to me things [00:50:45] like, oh, so you’re single, so how do you like sort yourself out? Do you just like [00:50:50] have somebody you call or do you sit inappropriate sexual questions like made me feel [00:50:55] very uncomfortable in that position. But I also didn’t know what to do. I was like, this is my [00:51:00] first film job. This is somebody of higher power than me, who also has [00:51:05] a relationship with the people higher than him as well. Like I don’t have that relationship with those people. I [00:51:10] am the only female on set like in my department. I didn’t know how to deal with it [00:51:15] even when I. The only reason I went to production in the end was because I [00:51:20] had a panic attack. The nurse saw me and the nurse said, you have to go to HR. And then [00:51:25] even when I went to HR, I could tell HR didn’t believe me when I was just verbally [00:51:30] explaining everything. That’s why they asked me for all this evidence. And I had a panic attack in the room and the [00:51:35] lady didn’t know what to do. She was like, do you want to put your head out the window? And I was like, hyperventilating. [00:51:40] It was just a really tricky situation. And off the back of that, [00:51:45] what happened was I felt like I was never meant to be in that job. I felt like I. She [00:51:50] felt it was your fault. Yeah. I felt like it was a crazy thing.

Payman Langroudi: Is, on the outside, anyone would think [00:51:55] that’s the pinnacle of your career. Disney movie set. You know, famous people. [00:52:00] Yeah. But actually on the inside, that was one of the hardest moments of your life.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: The hardest.

Payman Langroudi: What do [00:52:05] you think was going through his head? Do you think he understood?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I think.

Payman Langroudi: It was inadvertent, like he thought [00:52:10] he was having a go, like.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I’m not entirely sure. Um. [00:52:15] Like it makes my skin crawl. Thinking about it now. Yeah, but [00:52:20] I think. I don’t think I’m the first person that he’s had that behaviour [00:52:25] with, because he has said stories in front of me about his other colleagues, and [00:52:30] that makes me worry for the future people that he also works with, [00:52:35] even if he doesn’t think he’s like fully putting himself onto somebody, I think. Comments. [00:52:40] I think just making people feel uncomfortable and make using your power as a way [00:52:45] to silence them is not appropriate. Um. And [00:52:50] that’s why I was like, after the whole situation, I was so annoyed that the production team didn’t [00:52:55] tell anybody. He’ll get hired again, I think. This I think this poses [00:53:00] a very important question. And I think it’s, you know, important to get like a male perspective. [00:53:05] The MeToo movement has completely changed the narrative [00:53:10] around a lot of things, and it has posed historical questions. So what I mean by that [00:53:15] is, is that until really the Harvey Weinstein thing came along, there were so many [00:53:20] women that came forward and said, this has happened. But then obviously we [00:53:25] now have people that said, well, hang on a second, look, let’s look at Russell Brand. Right? Like people [00:53:30] are like, I thought it was okay then. And now I can speak up and say it wasn’t okay, [00:53:35] you know? And then there’s all this stuff about people questioning women, you know, for their judgement, [00:53:40] etc. and I think it’s a really like we’re living in an interesting [00:53:45] time because there are so many disbelievers.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: And what I mean by [00:53:50] that is, is that there are a lot of people would say the women are lying, and there’s a lot of people that don’t also [00:53:55] allow for space for the woman to be correct or incorrect. So do you know [00:54:00] what I mean by that? You know, for example, if you know, like if a male [00:54:05] has done something wrong, absolutely, he should be held accountable. But there might be the one [00:54:10] case where a woman is trying it. Do you see what I mean? For financial [00:54:15] reasons, let’s just say, or something like that. But I think it’s an interesting time because [00:54:20] we are not allowing any room for anything. And like you said, we’ve [00:54:25] got extreme cases where Disney should have dealt with it but didn’t want any drama. But [00:54:30] people just don’t want to look into stuff. And I think we don’t like we don’t. We’re not [00:54:35] like getting any further like closer to like solving these issues. Okay. So I’ve actually got a question for you [00:54:40] as a male, because I did like when I was going through that initially [00:54:45] I was just telling my best friend she was like, Sana, this is sexual harassment. I didn’t know it was sexual harassment. [00:54:50] I didn’t know it was a thing. Do you? Where do you draw the line [00:54:55] of? Falcon playfully with your colleague. Exactly. [00:55:00] Or sexual harassment? Yeah. What do you think? You have a lot of females.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult to know, isn’t it? That’s [00:55:05] what I’m saying, that I wonder whether this guy knew or not.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Do you think you [00:55:10] would know?

Payman Langroudi: Like, was it a power play or do you think.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: He would know, though, as you have a lot of young females here, do you think, [00:55:15] you know, like.

Payman Langroudi: I hope so, I hope so, but, you know, I don’t know because [00:55:20] I wasn’t there.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I think like in your.

Payman Langroudi: Situation, I wasn’t there.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Photos of themselves. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is [00:55:25] that what happened? Yeah.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Like I think then then he knows clearly. I mean, I saw this [00:55:30] the other day and I just pulled it up to read it out because I think it’s it’s quite. Telling [00:55:35] get harassed. It’s only banter. Wary of strange men. Uptight, [00:55:40] wary of familiar men. Paranoid. Friendly with guys. A slut. Trusting of guys. [00:55:45] Stupid. Report a liar. Don’t report part of the problem. Dress up asking [00:55:50] for it. Dress down ugly and lazy. When is it not our fault? That’s quite obviously [00:55:55] like yeah, and I’d love to know what you hear when you hear that.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve [00:56:00] had this this debate.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Many.

Payman Langroudi: Times. Yeah. Insomuch as I just think it’s [00:56:05] right now. It’s the best time ever to be a woman. Yeah. Women are more empowered, [00:56:10] more, more financially empowered, got more going on, [00:56:15] more rights, more everything than they’ve ever had before. And yet, if you read [00:56:20] the narrative, the narrative. Maybe it’s because women are now finally empowered [00:56:25] that they can finally say these things. Yeah. At the same time, at the same time, I [00:56:30] only figured out, I mean, it took me 48 years to figure out that it [00:56:35] was. My daughter had to tell me that all women every day feel threatened. Yeah, [00:56:40] I didn’t know that. I did not know that. Every day there’s a as [00:56:45] as as she’s walking down a road on her own. She constantly has to look around. [00:56:50] How old? 14. 13. So I mean, the. That [00:56:55] certainly isn’t the case for a man. Yeah. That doesn’t every day I don’t feel threatened. Yeah. [00:57:00] So what I’m saying is the conversation needs to be had. People need to [00:57:05] say these things because I didn’t know this until I was 48. So people need to hear these things at the [00:57:10] same time. Right here, right now is the best time in history to be a woman.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: What [00:57:15] do you hear when you hear that? When I hear that passage specifically. [00:57:20] Regardless. Like we’re never going to get it right [00:57:25] or always be blamed to an extent. Do you know what you know? And I really do think [00:57:30] that you could.

Payman Langroudi: Write a similar thing for me.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I think, okay, listen, I agree [00:57:35] that obviously in the Western world we do have more rights. We have this debate over and over again. You heard it with the Sareeta [00:57:40] podcast. Like we go over and over and over again. Obviously, for a woman in Afghanistan [00:57:45] or Iran, life is a lot harder than a woman here.

Payman Langroudi: I hear you or a woman here five years ago, I hear you. But [00:57:50] ten years ago.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear you. But also, I still think that we’ve got a long way to go. Like [00:57:55] we said, even though you don’t believe it. Gender pay gap. Gap is a thing. The orgasm gap is [00:58:00] a thing. Like we’ve had enough people. Orgasm gap I believe. So I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Believe in the gender [00:58:05] pay gap. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I think it’s a thing. It’s a thing like go argue with okay, I think it is a thing. [00:58:10] It might be different from industry to industry, but it’s a thing. Yeah, but it’s still a thing. But but my point is, [00:58:15] is that I still feel Sana and I went for coffee before we met you, and I was about [00:58:20] to tell us, and I can tell you because we didn’t have time to do it. She was like, how do you feel about the next stage of your life? And I was like, [00:58:25] do you know what I was like? I have some like, weird, kind of like anxiety about getting older at the [00:58:30] moment. I was like, I’ve never. It was weird because when everyone told me I was going to get like ugly [00:58:35] and old in my 30s, I felt more better than ever. I told, like, I [00:58:40] even showed Ahmed a picture of me in my 20. He was like, you look, Moschino. Moschino in Arabic means like miskeen. Like, you [00:58:45] know, like poor little thing. I was like, I look better now. But then, like at this stage I just feel [00:58:50] like this anxiety.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: And I went for dinner with a friend yesterday and he was like, oh, you know, we were [00:58:55] talking about like, marriage and kids and he’s quite a lot like younger and stuff. And he was like, you know, the thing is, like, [00:59:00] if you ever broke up with your partner, you would never get anyone as hot [00:59:05] or young as him. And I was just like, that’s such a mean thing to say. But [00:59:10] also at the same time, it’s the reality of being an older woman. That’s what I feel. Do [00:59:15] you see what I mean? Are you older than him? No, but I’m saying, okay, he’s 40. Right? But let’s say, like, things [00:59:20] go tits up, right? You never know. Like, hopefully not touch wood. Okay. But let’s say that I [00:59:25] think he could easily find a woman that’s, like, ten years younger. Sure. Of course. Right. He’s like a good looking [00:59:30] guy, works in the city, good job, etc.. He ticks the boxes. Yeah. Do you think I could find [00:59:35] someone decent now that I’m 37? I know that’s like. I’m sorry. I’m just being totally, like, vulnerable. I’m not [00:59:40] sure. I think you could.

Payman Langroudi: I think you could, but. 42. No. Huh?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: 42. No. [00:59:45] Si si si si si.

Payman Langroudi: I’m joking.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Do you think that I do you [00:59:50] think you could be eligible? Men would go for a woman that is like 37. Do you see what I mean? [00:59:55]

Payman Langroudi: Sure, sure. Some men like, uh, what they call cougars. Yeah, cougars.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Am I a cougar? To [01:00:00] be fair, though, I always say Amal Clooney met George when she was 38. [01:00:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Yeah, I think you could. I do think that obviously [01:00:10] it is a lot easier for a man to find somebody decent [01:00:15] at that age than it is for a woman, just because, like, obviously, men want a young, pretty wife. [01:00:20]

Payman Langroudi: What do women want?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I think women want different things from a primal [01:00:25] point of view and from a like so. I always have this conversation with Ella. Actually, I [01:00:30] was really interested. You read Mating in Captivity, haven’t, you know? So that’s Esther I haven’t, [01:00:35] but she was we were talking about it that biologically, Lex Fridman talks about this in one of [01:00:40] his podcasts. Biologically, what women and men want from a reproduction point of view is different. [01:00:45] Obviously, men naturally will gravitate towards fertility, as in like from that hormonal like. I want [01:00:50] someone that can produce loads of children. Men will go for someone with a T shaped body because [01:00:55] it’s more about strength and that I want someone to give me. Babies are going to be big and strong. In [01:01:00] fact, I told you this stat before. Apparently the reason why Vikings are so big is because all of the Viking [01:01:05] men used to rape the big, broad women back in the day because they [01:01:10] wanted to produce big, strong men like as children’s offspring. So on a primal level. But as [01:01:15] we’ve grown and adapted and because our environments aren’t just about reproduction and survival, we [01:01:20] look for different things. So a woman would typically look for safety, security, financial [01:01:25] as well, like provision to some degree, some women not all. So there are all these different elements. And [01:01:30] then obviously a man will be looking for something different, you know. So I think it’s very different to.

Payman Langroudi: Both financially [01:01:35] independent women. That’s a new thing isn’t it, that financially [01:01:40] lots and lots of financially independent women have changed [01:01:45] that balance of power, if you like, where money was used as a as a as a tool. [01:01:50]

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I think there’s still a lot of women that aren’t like us.

Payman Langroudi: But I know many, [01:01:55] many financial independent women now.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Okay, I know a lot of financial independent women, but [01:02:00] even those financially independent women, I think they still want those same things in a guy that they did. [01:02:05] If they weren’t like the things that Rhona just mentioned, the security, the safety, the even [01:02:10] from a financial perspective, even if they are financially secure.

Payman Langroudi: How do you feel about being in a relationship [01:02:15] where you’re making loads more money than the man?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: You have dated guys where you’ve made more than [01:02:20] them. Yeah, I don’t mind it as such. As long as he is not like prancing [01:02:25] off me or doing absolutely nothing with his life. Like I find you.

Payman Langroudi: Find you, find. [01:02:30]

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Ambition, attraction really attractive. Really, really. I wouldn’t want to financially support, man. Just putting it out [01:02:35] there.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t mean support. I mean you could do. I don’t want to.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Support a man I support, not support like scrub [01:02:40] I don’t want I don’t see myself.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s say, let’s say you fall in love with a guy [01:02:45] who earns half what you’re earning. You earn a lot of money. Yeah. So someone who earns half what you’re earning because could be a guy working [01:02:50] in the city. Someone. Someone successful person. Yeah. So it could be fine.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s fine. But [01:02:55] what I’m saying is that in a relationship where the woman earns more than the man, [01:03:00] are the dynamics different?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I think so, but I also have a friend of mine. She [01:03:05] shall not, shall not be named. She has exponential wealth, as in, like beyond [01:03:10] anyone that you know, like beyond on another level. And she always chooses men that [01:03:15] earn substantially less than her. Like substantially less. Yeah. Because I also think she enjoys [01:03:20] that money. Yeah. But also I think that she enjoys that to some degree because she can [01:03:25] control it. Do you see? I mean, it’s like every time she split up with a partner, it’s like, get out of my house. She’s good. [01:03:30] She can move on to the next. You see, I think in a way she’s using.

Payman Langroudi: Money as a tool.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I think [01:03:35] so, yeah. And I think that, like, you know, she’s the kind of person that would probably, like, end [01:03:40] up like giving, like contributing to her own engagement ring. Do you know what I [01:03:45] mean? That kind of thing. Because she can. But like, that’s a really rare case. Like I find that really [01:03:50] stressful. Then there’s other people, like I have another girlfriend. Her her [01:03:55] highest value is the way a man looks. So she is obsessed with like, an arm candy [01:04:00] guy. And I’m sitting there thinking, but he doesn’t have X, Y, and Z, which is important to me. So I think it’s extremely [01:04:05] personal. But I also think in London, like you said, there is an abundance of successful [01:04:10] women with a lot of money. I used to be part of this dating agency. Have you ever heard of it? Grey and [01:04:15] Farrah? No. Super interesting. So one of my friends, when I was at 30, she [01:04:20] ended up dating the guy from the owns Moneysupermarket.com. [01:04:25] Right. So this is an agency for very high end. Yeah, but their caveat is [01:04:30] they don’t want escort type girls and the woman has to be earning X amount. Do you understand? [01:04:35] Because the men don’t want to feel like. The men don’t want to feel like, yeah, it’s all about the money. [01:04:40] So I was like, cool. Like I decided to join. It wasn’t right for me because at the time [01:04:45] I was in a different stage of my life and I was like, I had to go for these, like, dates. So I’d been made to sit for like six [01:04:50] hours and Scott’s with someone that was like 15 years older than me. And I was like, not at that stage in my life. [01:04:55] But anyways, the point is, is that when you go on to the review, why did you why did you join it? [01:05:00]

Payman Langroudi: Because you were looking for a mate.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: And I was like, I really didn’t want to do like I wanted something that was super vetted. [01:05:05] So I basically did that and dry up. That’s. Yeah, exactly. Have you ever done Tinder? [01:05:10] No. Have you? Have I what? Tinder. Tinder? I went on it for one day and [01:05:15] actually never like matched with anybody. But the one person I saw on it is my now [01:05:20] boyfriend. Oh, really? Did you see him on it?

Payman Langroudi: But you [01:05:25] dated on it? No, you just saw him there.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I saw him, and the reason why I was on Tinder was because [01:05:30] I hadn’t dated him 4 or 5 years. And then the clients that I was with abroad [01:05:35] were like, right, we’re just going to open up. I was in Barbados at the time. We’re just going to make you a Tinder. I was like, okay, whatever. [01:05:40] Um, and then saw him, but then saw Primrose Hill as his location and I was like, nah, [01:05:45] too close to home and swiped no. And then she met him organically. Met him that night in Barbados [01:05:50] randomly. And then I was like, oh, is your name Nick? And [01:05:55] he was like, yeah. I was like, oh my God. I swiped no to you on Tinder yesterday and [01:06:00] now he’s my boyfriend. But the point is, is when you go on the, um, the [01:06:05] story about Graham Farrow’s, when you go on the Google reviews, it’s properly [01:06:10] vexed women that are like, I pay so much. This is a joke. This [01:06:15] is like a joke, kind of like dating agencies and these are high net worth women. So I think it’s like [01:06:20] a really tricky spot for high net worth women for them to like, meet [01:06:25] men and typically do those high net worth men want to be with those kinds of women? [01:06:30] I don’t know, like the dates that I went on.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: They all wanted to pursue it further, but I was like, I [01:06:35] just wasn’t vibing it or wasn’t feeling it, but it’s just quite interesting. I think there’s two types of women. If [01:06:40] you are like, let’s say you’ve got so much money and you’re really high net worth, I think you either know [01:06:45] you have those expectations of like, okay, I know I am worth something and [01:06:50] I know that I’m going to find somebody who’s either a lot younger than me, hasn’t got a stable job, [01:06:55] and I will be supporting them to an extent, or I’m going to try and find somebody on my actual level, [01:07:00] and then they grow together that way. So I think it just depends on what you want in that [01:07:05] situation. Some women, I think, will really love having a younger partner and really like supporting them. I think [01:07:10] they’d love it. So, Sana, I want to, um, ask [01:07:15] you a little bit now. You’ve obviously gone through a massive change. Recently in your life where [01:07:20] you decided you had to make changes you’ve gone from seeing. I used to say to you, got to change something. These 10 to [01:07:25] 12 clients you’ve seen every day for seven days a week, it wasn’t conducive to your mental health.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: You experienced [01:07:30] a lot of like physical and mental pain. So tell us what you did to change it. And [01:07:35] about the new exciting thing that’s out. So yeah, I. I [01:07:40] found it really difficult to transition from being a full time pet to what I do now. [01:07:45] But basically recently I took on two coaches, so I have two coaches working for me. They [01:07:50] now train my clients for me in the gym. I’m no longer, um, based there at the gym. I [01:07:55] have an online business now as well. I just wanted to make. My [01:08:00] issue with my business was I have a super inaccessible business. I’m [01:08:05] a 1 to 1 PT, I charge high end rates. They are for a certain demographic of people and it’s just not [01:08:10] accessible for everybody. So I wanted to make a product that is more accessible both financially, geographically, [01:08:15] geographically and something that actually had a bit of value in it, you know? Um, [01:08:20] so I’ve been working for the past year on an app and we launched [01:08:25] literally last week. Thank you. So the app is basically training, [01:08:30] nutrition and education. So my whole concept with that app is to be able [01:08:35] to bridge the gap between 1 to 1 PT and the online world, because I find some of the online [01:08:40] world is super vague and it’s like, here’s your program, here’s your training session, go get on with it. [01:08:45]

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: They don’t really learn anything in that process. They’re constantly relying on you as a coach [01:08:50] and the 1 to 1. Like I said, it’s for a certain type of person to train 3 or 4 times a week and pay £100. [01:08:55] Plus, it’s not feasible for everybody. So, uh, my main point of [01:09:00] this app is to educate people. So we have it’s almost like a hub where [01:09:05] we talk through everything in terms of training, training terms, rest sets, [01:09:10] tempo, um, how you should be training, the intensity you’re training at. And then we’ve got the same for the, um, [01:09:15] nutrition side of things. A lot of education. We have a nutritionist and a gut health [01:09:20] specialist coming on board. We have a hit coach on there, Yasmin Garcia. [01:09:25] Um, and we have a mental health coach on there, Lauren White, who [01:09:30] you know as well. So I’m trying to sort of bridge the gap, like I said, between the 1 to [01:09:35] 1 coaching and the online world. Give the client as much support without the access [01:09:40] to me as a coach. So is there what’s it called? Is there 1.

Payman Langroudi: To 1 support on the app [01:09:45] as well, or is it on the app?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: It’s content on the on the app is just content. But what we do is we [01:09:50] listen to the feedback of the users. And if there’s any specific questions, we what was the process [01:09:55] of doing the app? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Was it was it a difficult process?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Oh my god. So much more difficult than I thought. [01:10:00] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And expensive.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Expensive and I also so I had [01:10:05] I’ve got a friend in the industry who has a very successful app. Um, she [01:10:10] does incredibly well on it. And like, like we said earlier, if you don’t ask, you don’t get. So [01:10:15] I literally just messaged her one day and I was like, babe, can we meet for dinner? I want to, I want to pick your brain about [01:10:20] your app and how you sort of like, did what you did. Because my problem with bringing something mass [01:10:25] to the market is I don’t totally agree with it being so vague and [01:10:30] like not one size fits all sort of thing. Yeah. Um, so I sort of like, picked her brain. [01:10:35] She was super, super helpful and not like, gatekeeping any of her tips and tricks. [01:10:40] So she kind of like told me who her contacts were, etc. helped me out a little bit. And, [01:10:45] um, the process was a lot of coding and understanding the backend of a [01:10:50] tech business. Um, so I write the programs myself. I [01:10:55] then have to put them into certain coded things on an Excel spreadsheet. I then [01:11:00] send that over to the tech team. They then input that on the back end of the app. I’m trying to sort of [01:11:05] learn that side of things myself a little bit more, because then I have more access to update things when [01:11:10] and how I want. But yeah, it was a super long process. I did not think, well done. Honestly, I’ve [01:11:15] never ever thought that it would take as long as it did. And content is the bane of my life. [01:11:20] Um, content, like people like say. And it’s like, you really enjoy it though. It’s like it’s such an investment. I was exhausted [01:11:25] yesterday. Exhausted. And I had my TikTok girl come. She’s been on the podcast and [01:11:30] she gets some really good advice. Yeah. Do you know I had one? Yeah. She’s [01:11:35] amazing. Yeah. And she takes the stress out like we filmed for three hours yesterday and it’s done for the [01:11:40] month.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got to hand it to you, man. The amount of content you’re putting out. Yeah, but.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: But but [01:11:45] like, listen, I’m a different platforms, but like, Ellie does my TikTok, Chelsea Stewart [01:11:50] does my, um, my Instagram like the branding and like the way that, [01:11:55] like, you know, that they like she’s got a team and it’s an investment that costs me money, [01:12:00] Prav costs me money, all that stuff. And people don’t realise. They think, you [01:12:05] know, it falls out of the sky. They’re like, oh, she actually a busy dentist to be doing all of this. But I made a conscious decision. [01:12:10] Three clinical days. The rest is brand building. And the brand building is what keeps [01:12:15] the clinic going. Do you see what I mean? You know, but I think also it comes from you having a certain vision in your head, [01:12:20] like you’ve got a vision of what you’re going to achieve with, like your Instagram, your TikTok, your, you know, whatever it is. [01:12:25] And I have imposter syndrome. Like I literally call up Shivani and go, I’m shit, I’m not growing. You [01:12:30] got 100 K followers in six months. I’ve only grown by like five K followers. [01:12:35] Like why aren’t I growing? Is my content crap?

Payman Langroudi: And then to have the humility, to have the humility. Start [01:12:40] TikTok at zero when you are already at 90,000. Yeah, it’s [01:12:45] took a lot of people wouldn’t have had that humility. Yeah. And now you know, now, as you can see, it’s like I can see it’s kind of [01:12:50] it’s kind of working out. The fact that he started TikTok was a good idea. Yeah, that takes a degree of humility. [01:12:55]

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Totally. But yeah, but it’s patience and persistence. And I was just saying to you, like, obviously [01:13:00] Shauna was like, it’s amazing that Payman has got 10,000 subscribers, you know, for Dental [01:13:05] Leaders, it’s incredible. It’s incredible. But also, I said to him, I was like, I’m so happy about my movies. And he was [01:13:10] like, Brennan, we’ve only been doing this for like ten months or 11 months.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever it is, whether it’s getting fit, [01:13:15] whether it’s doing TikTok is turning up, isn’t it?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: It’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Consistency.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Thing. [01:13:20] Exactly. And that and that’s the thing, you know, consistency will get you to places that motivation [01:13:25] can’t do. You see what I mean? And it’s just about showing up. Yeah. Sauna. Love you so much [01:13:30] guys. Please check out the app. I’m not just saying everyone always says the name.

Payman Langroudi: Of the app.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: So it’s the SSC app. [01:13:35] Yes, it’s SS coaching, SS coaching and for those as well, for those that can’t afford, [01:13:40] you know, personal training. As I said, sauna would have put her heart and soul into it. She [01:13:45] is amazing. She changed my life, my body. Um, and you know, [01:13:50] a lot of dentists would also advocate for her because about 100 dentists started training with her because of me. What [01:13:55] do you charge? What do you charge.

Payman Langroudi: For one, 1.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: To 1? Um, 1 to 1 is £150. And then my, my [01:14:00] two coaches are slightly less than that. They’re on around 140, which obviously I know is not [01:14:05] accessible for everybody. Right. Why are you thinking to join? No, no.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:14:10] I mean, you could charge twice as much and have half the number of people. [01:14:15] Is that is that how.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: She does have some how it works. You could and I like [01:14:20] there’s still a cap. Let’s say I charge £500 an hour and I’m working for five [01:14:25] hours a day. That is still a cap. I know, and it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Like being a dentist.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Yeah, [01:14:30] you’re you’re literally exchanging your time for money. Right. And how much does the app. So the app [01:14:35] is £29.99 a month. Oh cool. Amazing. So massive difference. Amazing. And thank [01:14:40] you. So thank you guys for having me. It was amazing. Yeah. Thank you. Take care soon okay. [01:14:45] Bye bye.

Kevin Shannon: So it’s like it’s simply what it is is it’s, uh, some buttons and each one says, like, composite [00:00:05] bridge, crown, whatever, all your different treatments. Yeah. And then you just put the patient’s name [00:00:10] in on the website interface type thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. On the website interface. [00:00:15] So then you just log on under that, click the button. Whatever treatments you want to do composite [00:00:20] bridge extraction hit generate and then gives you a big form just [00:00:25] like an under 10s. So I posted that on people are like oh and it generated a bit. It’s funny when I posted [00:00:30] that I was like so like, oh my god, are they going to delete my post? Am I going to? I was so anxious about the film thing, thinking, [00:00:35] people are going to think I’m an idiot anyway. And then I ended up with like over 200 dentists in [00:00:40] the Facebook group and in the WhatsApp group. So I was like, okay, like there’s something, there’s something in this here.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:50] is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go [00:00:55] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:00] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:01:05]

Kevin Shannon: Ladies and gentlemen, it gives me great pleasure [00:01:10] to.

Prav Solanki: Introduce Kevin Shannon on the Dental Leaders podcast. [00:01:15] And Kevin came across my radar, I think [00:01:20] by accident really. And it’s through jazz variety. So he I [00:01:25] was on Instagram and then he put this post up saying digital TCO, I’ll [00:01:30] never have to write notes again. And I thought, you know what? If someone else has said [00:01:35] that this is just sort of a load of bollocks, but with jazz, when he puts something out [00:01:40] there and he talks about a product, I know it’s going to be high quality. So what I did is [00:01:45] I signed up for a free trial for digital TCO because it was curious and nosy, [00:01:50] nosy, and because I’m in the software development game, I thought, let me see what this is all [00:01:55] about. And I pretended to be a patient and I dentist. Sorry. And I, [00:02:00] um, press record on this thing and it got the transcription band gone, which for a [00:02:05] mancunian is really, really tricky and strange. And in addition to that, it [00:02:10] sparked a load of notes and I was really impressed by it. And [00:02:15] so I picked up the phone and spoke to jazz and he said, listen, mate, this is game changer for me. [00:02:20] And I’m at the moment preparing for a talk I’m going to [00:02:25] give at Clearcorrect Elevating Excellence event. And I’m talking about [00:02:30] the ultimate Clearcorrect consultation or clear aligner or orthodontic [00:02:35] consultation. Call it whatever you want. Um, and I thought, actually, you know what? I [00:02:40] want to learn how something like digital TCO would stop you ever writing [00:02:45] notes again. And we’re going to talk about what digital TCO is. But and Kevin, before [00:02:50] we get stuck into this, welcome to the podcast. And we just like to just [00:02:55] get a little bit of information about sort of where you grew up, um, [00:03:00] what your upbringing was like. So welcome to the podcast. You just like to start by just [00:03:05] telling us about your upbringing, where you were born, brothers and sisters, sort of family you [00:03:10] were born into. Yeah.

Kevin Shannon: Thanks, Prav. Uh, thanks for having me on. Um, yeah. [00:03:15] So I grew up in a little town outside Glasgow. It’s called Kilsyth. It’s [00:03:20] literally right on the on the hills. So from from the back of where I grew up, it’s [00:03:25] just like up into the hills. Into the Campsie hills. Like a beautiful place to grow up. So we grew [00:03:30] up a lot, you know, climbing trees, running about, playing about outside, all that kind of stuff. Had [00:03:35] a really good upbringing. We didn’t I didn’t really come from any money at anything at all, single parent family. [00:03:40] So my mum brought up me and my brother. But we have a really close family, [00:03:45] not massive family. My mum’s got three sisters a bit, you know, so my cousins and you [00:03:50] know, it was a really good, um, a really good upbringing. Didn’t have a lot of money but didn’t know it, [00:03:55] if you know what I mean.

Prav Solanki: Totally get it, Kevin. And then when you say you had a close family, were they close [00:04:00] in proximity as well? Were you mucking about with your cousins and your aunties and your and your uncles [00:04:05] and stuff like that, or really quite far. You know, you said you were just climbing trees and stuff. [00:04:10] Was that with sort of with sort of fat, close family who live nearby. [00:04:15]

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. Well, some live nearby. And then my grandparents, they left a little bit further away, some [00:04:20] other cousins that lived further away. But my grandmother always take is like, you know, like, you know, six, [00:04:25] seven of us away up in like caravan holidays for like weeks during the summer as well. So [00:04:30] yeah like just had had a really good, had a really good childhood. I would wouldn’t [00:04:35] change a thing. Happy childhood. Happy childhood indeed.

Prav Solanki: You mentioned something there like you didn’t [00:04:40] have you didn’t come from money. You didn’t have money, but you didn’t realise it or know it [00:04:45] either. And what makes you think back now, reflecting from today, looking [00:04:50] backwards and say, well, we didn’t have money. And how would [00:04:55] you describe that if you were to just sort of say, well, why? Why do you even say that?

Kevin Shannon: I [00:05:00] think it’s important because it gives me quite a lot of drive to do all this [00:05:05] stuff. It’s always kind of given me a drive. I think I’ve got a natural natural [00:05:10] intelligence that, you know, a gift that I’ve been given. And yeah, [00:05:15] I think that’s really just the main thing. It’s just I’ve got this drive that comes from that, [00:05:20] a stubbornness. It may be sometimes a bit too much of an ego that occurs [00:05:25] because of that, because I’m like, I’ve, you know, I’m I’m going to do this because of this, this. And the next [00:05:30] thing if you don’t want me.

Prav Solanki: Is there a part of you, Kevin, that says, I had nothing and I’ve got a band. And [00:05:35] to prove this, that I can do this on my own. I can come from nothing and [00:05:40] have a success story, or I want to just do better for myself because I’ve [00:05:45] had that. I don’t want to say struggle, but because it doesn’t sound like you did struggle [00:05:50] as a child because you said you had a very happy childhood and you didn’t know it. [00:05:55] And I think, I think that in itself is pretty amazing that, um, [00:06:00] you know, happiness doesn’t revolve around things. And, you know, you [00:06:05] can have so much fun climbing trees and looking around like we did on that as kids. [00:06:10] We were just bombing around on BMX and skateboards and stuff like that and getting [00:06:15] it getting into trouble. Yeah, we didn’t have money, right? We, you know, we didn’t [00:06:20] even get the caravan holidays. Right. And I remember we did like holidays didn’t exist and going [00:06:25] abroad was just it was something so foreign that it didn’t happen. Right. But [00:06:30] me and my brother and our mates, we used to muck around with really happy childhood and we [00:06:35] didn’t have money, but we also weren’t surrounded by friends who had it either, so we didn’t know [00:06:40] what we were missing, if that makes sense.

Prav Solanki: But looking back now and I think about what my children [00:06:45] have got sometimes I think the spoilt sometimes I think wouldn’t be good [00:06:50] for them to have a similar upbringing to us. But at the same respect I look at and think, well, I want to give them what I [00:06:55] didn’t have is that it’s always a constant sort of internal battle I have with myself [00:07:00] for, you know, with yourself. Was was there ever any time as a kid [00:07:05] where you thought, hmm, be nice if I had this or had that? Or was we just totally oblivious [00:07:10] to it? And secondly, like you, you say you’ve got this drive now, right? Does [00:07:15] that does that have its roots in the fact that, well, I’ve come from nothing and I’m going [00:07:20] to prove it to either myself or the world or whatever. You mentioned your ego, but I’m going to [00:07:25] I’m going to do this.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. Um, yeah. I think you touched you touched on something, [00:07:30] I think when you said, like, you know, oh, I’m going to do this, do this myself. And I was like, yeah, I [00:07:35] think that’s that’s probably my own. This isn’t directly answering that question, but I think sometimes that’s to my own detriment. [00:07:40] Um, that I do that I need to be able to open up things up [00:07:45] more and connect. With with more things, more people to [00:07:50] help with it further myself because like, yeah, I think I’ve been quite narrow focus. I can do this and [00:07:55] do this alone because that’s the way I’ve always had to be essentially. Mhm.

Prav Solanki: I guess the thrust [00:08:00] of my question is, does the fact that you’ve come from not very much drive [00:08:05] you to be even more. Is that a driving force for you from, for me growing [00:08:10] up it was part of that. It was part I was brought up in a single parent family as well. But my [00:08:15] it was my dad, not my mum. And there was two driving factors for me. [00:08:20] One was we had nothing and I’m gonna I’m gonna build a future here, right? And I’m [00:08:25] going to be successful, whatever successful means. And that definition of success has changed for me over the years. [00:08:30] But also I wanted to make my dad proud. Yeah, I wanted [00:08:35] to do right by him. And I’ve always seeks my father’s [00:08:40] approval, and he has been a massive driving force in me [00:08:45] doing what I do even today. Yeah, as a 46 year old adult, [00:08:50] I still seek my father’s approval for things that I really [00:08:55] shouldn’t have to do. You see what I mean? Is there any sort of parallels there for you? [00:09:00]

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, I think it’s a lot about, you know, looking after my mum and my [00:09:05] mum’s just done everything for me and my brother. You know, it’s [00:09:10] unconditional love, you know, thankless thanklessly just doing so much stuff. [00:09:15] You know, it’s just you could never you could never repay that. So [00:09:20] I think that’s like a big, a big factor. But I’ve kind of had the drive [00:09:25] but then lost the drive and then refound the drive again. I think it’s really what’s happened in [00:09:30] my life, just as things became a bit routine. And so I feel like there is that aspect of it, [00:09:35] but there’s also the aspect now where I just because it’s my own [00:09:40] frustrations and things, it’s I want to be able to help other people. And as I’m and as I’m seeing how this [00:09:45] thing is helping other people, it’s just pushing me on even more. So. Yeah, it’s interesting [00:09:50] because I don’t know exactly what it’s about. It’s just right now pretty [00:09:55] much a complete obsession. Like it’s just constantly on my mind, if [00:10:00] you know what I mean.

Prav Solanki: So just going back to your childhood. So what what did mum do [00:10:05] as bringing up two young boys? What what is it that you in terms [00:10:10] of how does she make ends meet when when you were younger? Just, just I just want to paint [00:10:15] a picture of what that was like growing up in a single parent family in Scotland. [00:10:20] And what you went with, what you went with out, and what mum was doing at that time [00:10:25] to give you where you are today.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. Well, um, my [00:10:30] mom worked as a dental and a medical receptionist, so she was she [00:10:35] did a few different jobs, things before that, but then, then she started doing that. But we didn’t live in like, a, [00:10:40] like a nice area as well either. It was pretty, pretty rough. Like, the street was [00:10:45] pretty rough and but you know, we were kind of always sheltered from that [00:10:50] just, you know, she really brought us up well, taught us, you know, [00:10:55] just manners and how to be, you know, reasonable people.

Prav Solanki: Hey. [00:11:00]

Kevin Shannon: And then both me and my brother are, you [00:11:05] know, successful in what? In what we do. But we like [00:11:10] we like the thing that we do. And if I look around about, you know, in that street that other people who are there, [00:11:15] you know, I can maybe name one other person who’s maybe got out of that. And that’s I think that’s [00:11:20] the thing is, like, she she’s given us the route out of there. You’ve broke [00:11:25] out.

Prav Solanki: You’ve broken out of that circle cycle, whatever it is of your [00:11:30] local environment and do well, whereas other kids maybe [00:11:35] haven’t or have gone down the wrong path. Right. And as I’m talking to you, Kevin, I’m thinking [00:11:40] about my own childhood because me and my brother were brought up on in on [00:11:45] the back of quite a rough estate. And it was literally, you know, whether people [00:11:50] were getting into scraps, selling drugs, getting expelled from school, all [00:11:55] of the above. And although we hung around in that environment [00:12:00] and knew everyone, dad always used to push education. And he’s like, listen, [00:12:05] I don’t want you to be like these guys, right? I want you to build a future, and I don’t [00:12:10] want you to do what I do. So we had a corner shop, he drove taxis, [00:12:15] he worked in factories, but he he did everything he could. And it sounds [00:12:20] like he mum did the same to break us out of that sort of cycle. So just [00:12:25] talk me through. What is it? What does your brother do and at what point did you decide [00:12:30] I’m going to be a medical dental professional?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. My brother, he’s [00:12:35] a barber, which is interesting because back in the day, a barber and a dentist were the same thing. [00:12:40]

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Kevin Shannon: He’s gifted in other [00:12:45] ways. Like, I’m not really so good with people, like, because [00:12:50] I liked it, you know, have to think things through. And I could do all that kind [00:12:55] of stuff. And he is a very, very good with people. So he’s [00:13:00] manages and runs this, you know, these barber shops. So he’s very, [00:13:05] very good at that. That’s doing great.

Prav Solanki: What’s the age gap between you both covered.

Kevin Shannon: Three years. [00:13:10]

Prav Solanki: Right. All the younger.

Kevin Shannon: He’s the younger brother and the older brother. The younger brother [00:13:15] right.

Prav Solanki: That’s really interesting. So my dad is younger than me. I’m [00:13:20] okay with people, but my brother’s a lot better. A lot better. Yeah. Yeah, he’s [00:13:25] got the gift of the gab. He’s a social butterfly. It’s really interesting [00:13:30] that, um, I am a little bit more. I definitely more academic than my brother, [00:13:35] for sure. Yeah, but you put us both in a room with [00:13:40] a group of people. He will work that room, work that audience, and it will. [00:13:45] We’re like chalk and cheese in that respect. He’s so much better than me socially. Yeah. [00:13:50]

Kevin Shannon: And that’s, I think, coming back to them, coming back to my mum again about that because I went to school [00:13:55] and then I just, you know, straight straight, everything’s just all this. So then when he was going through [00:14:00] school, teachers would try and compare my brother to me. Yeah. And [00:14:05] my mum just would never stand for it. You know, you’re two different people. Really [00:14:10] an asset and he was never pressured that you have to do this or have to do that. Like she allowed us to just [00:14:15] be your be yourselves.

Prav Solanki: It’s funny. And you look back at that and I think [00:14:20] that, you know, your mom’s almost like doing everything that these parenting books tell you to do now, and all these sort [00:14:25] of things of how you bring children up and stuff, right, is to raise you to be to very decent human [00:14:30] beings and be the best of who you are. Right? So talk me through [00:14:35] the dentistry side of things. When did that so you were at school and you were smashing your grades, [00:14:40] right? You were. Whether you were working hard, revising or whatever you had was tuned in. I [00:14:45] can get me A’s and me A’s and all the rest of it. So I guess career options [00:14:50] were open to you. And what made you choose at what point during sort of school and that, did [00:14:55] you decide? Right? I mean, they were doing this.

Kevin Shannon: I was thinking about doing [00:15:00] maths. Um, okay. First of all, that was my kind of my first [00:15:05] thought. And then my cousin, she was working as a dental therapist and [00:15:10] she was like, oh, um, come in and just see what I do. So then I went in there [00:15:15] and then I went back, you know, and just did a bit of shadowing. Right. So this seems to be quite a good, a good thing. And I just thought, okay, [00:15:20] well I’ll do that. I thought about doing medicine as well, but I didn’t like the idea of which is this is a funny [00:15:25] thing, which I guess we can come back to, um, that I didn’t like the idea of I [00:15:30] don’t want to have to go through all this stuff and not really get a job until I’m in my, you know, early [00:15:35] get my real job until I’m in my early 30s. Um, yeah. So I kind [00:15:40] of liked the idea I could go and do that and do the dentistry. But what feels like what’s happened is that is exactly what’s happened. [00:15:45] I feel like the dentistry was just like this kind of thing that I did, and now I’ve found my real job. [00:15:50] Yeah. So, yeah, it’s kind of funny.

Prav Solanki: Um, and, um, [00:15:55] so at what point? So you did this work experience. What? At what point did you say. Yeah, I’m. [00:16:00] At what age? What what age were you at? What stage in your education were you where you were [00:16:05] sort of yeah, I’m going to be a dentist.

Kevin Shannon: Like 16 years old.

Prav Solanki: Wow. [00:16:10] And what was it? Was it that was it at that [00:16:15] stage that. It’s a career where I could make a decent living. Was [00:16:20] it? I’ve been on work experience and I’ve seen the patient interaction in the journey, and I want to do that. [00:16:25] Was it. I want to fix things like teeth. What? What was it at that age [00:16:30] that made you say, yeah, I’m at the dentist?

Kevin Shannon: I think it was all just a bit of of all, all of [00:16:35] that. The working with. I like the idea of being able to do things with my hands and make things. [00:16:40] I like that. Yeah. And then the money. Funny thing is, when you’re applying, you don’t [00:16:45] speak about the money. You know, it’s like, don’t don’t mention the money. But really. Yeah, it was very [00:16:50] much forefront in my mind. Yeah, I could do this job and I’ll do this and it’s like a 9 to 5 job and blah [00:16:55] blah blah. That was my thinking at the time. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Um, and you can make a few quid. [00:17:00] Going back to my brother, it was everything. It was just about money for him. That was it. So [00:17:05] he did work experience with a dentist. That dentist played [00:17:10] golf on a weekend, and he took my brother to play golf. He drove a really flashy Mercedes at [00:17:15] the time. And, you know, like like like we we grew up with [00:17:20] with, with no money. So my dad had a really rusty Ford Escort where [00:17:25] the bumper was hanging off. And then to see someone pull up in a Mercedes was like, wow, do [00:17:30] you know what I mean? That guy has made it. And so my brother was held back because I am going to become [00:17:35] that dentist. I’m going to make that money and I’m going to have that life. And so that was the the but you don’t [00:17:40] talk about it during the application process, do you? Uh, no. Even even though that’s [00:17:45] the that’s the driving force. And do you think that that coming from where you come sort of motivated [00:17:50] you further in terms of making that decision that actually, do you know what I’m going to break out of this [00:17:55] cycle? Yeah.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, yeah. And then and [00:18:00] then doing it, you know, going to university, it was just like just so much fun. [00:18:05] It was just absolutely brilliant. What did you go? At Dundee.

Prav Solanki: Dundee. [00:18:10] Okay, so not too far from home.

Kevin Shannon: Not. Not too far away from home, but also the only place [00:18:15] I got in. Right.

Prav Solanki: Okay, okay, so we went through [00:18:20] the application process. Was it interviews back then or was it just paper exercise or what [00:18:25] was the process like?

Kevin Shannon: My my interview was how did you get here? I got the [00:18:30] bus. Right. Okay. There’s a there’s a bus. Fine. I was like, yep. Okay. See [00:18:35] you in August. You know, it was like it was nothing complicated. It was as easy as that. [00:18:40] Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Prav Solanki: And so what was what was dental school like for you in Dundee [00:18:45] in terms of mixture of between work and fun and all the rest of it. And then [00:18:50] I sort of like the first time you were like properly away from home.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. So [00:18:55] it was like 17 moved out of the house, you know, moved away up. You’re up there. It [00:19:00] was quite good because pretty much everybody in the year, there was no one really from Dundee. Everybody [00:19:05] was from all over the place. So a good mix of people. Um, yeah. [00:19:10] It was just it was a fantastic, fantastic time. Just a lot of drinking and a lot of partying, a [00:19:15] lot of then a lot of late nights in the library, uh, and then.

Prav Solanki: Squeeze through your [00:19:20] exams. And during that time, when you were at uni, did you know what you wanted to do in dentistry? [00:19:25] Did you have an idea? I want to be a business owner or I wanted to do cosmetic dentistry. I’d [00:19:30] like to niche down on this. Or are you too focussed on partying [00:19:35] and drinking at the time?

Kevin Shannon: No, I thought, I thought I really, I thought I wanted [00:19:40] to be the best that I, that I could be in this. Yeah, I did think about at some point where I’ll go down the route [00:19:45] of this funny thinking now, but I’ll go down the route of like, you know, being a consultant in something [00:19:50] or being a specialist. Um, I did always want to have my own business. I always wanted [00:19:55] to, I thought I always wanted to own a practice as well. So that’s what. [00:20:00] That’s what I thought when I graduated, I thought, well, go and do the vet and [00:20:05] then we’ll see what happens. And then as I started doing that, I was thinking more about, [00:20:10] okay, well maybe get the business and whatnot. But then my thoughts on that started to change over time, really. [00:20:15]

Prav Solanki: So walk me through a potted history if you get your dental degree. [00:20:20] What happened next in terms of first job, second job, [00:20:25] whatever, and how dentistry panned out for you in that first job, was it what you [00:20:30] expected? Just talk me through your career since graduating.

Kevin Shannon: Wasn’t [00:20:35] what I expected. I mean, I guess it was what I expected. You’re doing the work. But that’s [00:20:40] really when I realised that I really had to kind of separate [00:20:45] out the day job from the night thing and not be bringing that home. I realised very quickly, [00:20:50] like, I can’t be bringing this stuff home, you know, when I’m like in. You’ve [00:20:55] made it, you’ve done a crown and it’s like not fitting in and you’ve had to do like six revisions on this crown [00:21:00] for this patient or whatever, because you’re just absolutely useless. You can’t just be like letting that go [00:21:05] through your head constantly at night. And so I did that job for a year. [00:21:10] And then I wanted to that was up in Dundee. And then I wanted to move back down to, to [00:21:15] Glasgow. So then I just, I took a job down and stayed here, but it was like a brand new, um, squat [00:21:20] practice that had opened up, but it was very NHS area. So [00:21:25] I was working like six days a week and hardly making anything because it was just extractions and NHS dentures.

Prav Solanki: And [00:21:30] did you, did you move back to Glasgow to be close back, close to mum or [00:21:35] family. What was the what pulled you back?

Kevin Shannon: Um, I just wanted to be down here. [00:21:40]

Prav Solanki: I guess you want to see that as you always seen that as home that draws [00:21:45] you back in terms of this is where home is or.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, this [00:21:50] is the home. But I just kind of wanted I’d never because we’d lived in Kilsyth. I hadn’t really lived in the city down here before. [00:21:55] So I just wanted to like, live down here in the city and see what it’s all about. So. [00:22:00] So we did that. We moved down here, did that job for [00:22:05] a for a year, and then I got offered pretty good job. Um, with good [00:22:10] dentist who was building up a group of practices. So it’s all [00:22:15] the marketing, the sales. Everything’s all really well organised. [00:22:20]

Prav Solanki: Who was that?

Kevin Shannon: Mark skimming.

Prav Solanki: I know that, yeah, yeah. [00:22:25] Hey, free group.

Kevin Shannon: Pain free group.

Prav Solanki: Yeah yeah yeah I know Mark. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. [00:22:30]

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. Give me that really good opportunity at that job in there. [00:22:35] And so because working with Mark then it was I was just doing a lot of courses [00:22:40] and learning a lot more and just trying to, just trying to really better myself with. With dentistry [00:22:45] and just trying to trying to do that. But, you know, I would just I think then I started to let things [00:22:50] get to me a bit too much with patients that are like, what? People [00:22:55] not liking the danger that you’ve, that there’s nothing wrong with it. And, uh, you [00:23:00] know, this, these kind of things. Um, and I didn’t I just didn’t get on with the manager [00:23:05] in there as well. And it’s upon reflection, when I look back at it now, you know, it’s [00:23:10] it’s on me, really. And it’s just because of. This is why what I’m [00:23:15] doing now really suits me, because I like to have the thing in my head and then and then go [00:23:20] for it. When I’m getting loads and loads of questions about why are you doing that with the Buddha? We can’t do that. But I’ve it [00:23:25] was just too much butting of heads because I’ve got my own ideas about things and I don’t really like [00:23:30] being told what to do. It’s taken a long time for me to realise that and accept that, [00:23:35] I think. Um, but yeah. So then after that I left there because I [00:23:40] just really couldn’t handle that anymore. Um, and then I got [00:23:45] another job. But that job. Then what happened as lockdown hit? So that was just like [00:23:50] a year and a half of, like, just floating about.

Prav Solanki: So before we go on to that, Kevin, the [00:23:55] Mark Simmons practice, did you start making money there? Yes. Is that [00:24:00] the first time in your life where you thought to myself, Now I’m making money?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. [00:24:05] Yeah, we did like, we did like, a lot of good things. You know, we had a lot of a [00:24:10] lot of a lot of fun, a lot of nice places. Seen a lot of good food eaten and all that. Just [00:24:15] a totally opposite life from what I’d grown up into. Totally [00:24:20] different world. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: And so at that point where you’d sort of said, right. [00:24:25] Was that a point you said, right, this the future is great. Now I’ve cracked it. I’m making money. [00:24:30] It’s great. Obviously, I’m bashing heads with people here in this role. And, you know, [00:24:35] on reflection, it’s me. Back then, maybe you didn’t realise that and you moved on, but it was at [00:24:40] this point in your life where you thought, I can make a few quid in this career now of I’ve made it. Was [00:24:45] that a sort of a and then it was like that was it at that point you sort of said, well, I can afford these luxuries [00:24:50] and stuff like that. Was that the turning point around that time where you went from that NHC [00:24:55] type role to this?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, I think so. But I don’t really know if it was like a like [00:25:00] a turning point, really, because I feel like I feel like I [00:25:05] didn’t really funny to say, like I didn’t really appreciate it so [00:25:10] much because I don’t think that I really enjoyed the job. I [00:25:15] didn’t it didn’t equate in my mind, you know, it didn’t equate [00:25:20] my mind that I’m going these things here are then given me this money. It was like, I need to do this job, and then [00:25:25] I’ve got this money. And like there was no happiness really in amongst it. It [00:25:30] wasn’t it wasn’t a fulfilling thing for me. Um, is.

Prav Solanki: Is that because you were [00:25:35] stressed in your role and you were having a hard time and you were bashing heads and pissed off that people didn’t like your dentures, [00:25:40] and that was mixed in with the money. And so the happiness you used [00:25:45] to get from having £0.30 in your pocket and bumming around on BMX and [00:25:50] climbing trees was a totally different thing for you.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, [00:25:55] yeah, I think I’m just not suited for it. It’s not my vocation [00:26:00] and that’s it. It’s dentistry is a vocation and I’ve and I’ve, I’ve done this thing and it’s not always meant to do [00:26:05] long term. Okay, because I think one of the things [00:26:10] that I just that I don’t particularly enjoy is hopefully having that list [00:26:15] of patients in front of me and going, I need to do all of this before I can [00:26:20] get home. Just it’s, you know, because I’m, I like to do things quickly. [00:26:25] And if I’m, if I have to see a patient and then there’s a bit of a gap or, you know, I’ve preferred the days when it was just [00:26:30] jam packed full. You get three patients in three different rooms and you’re running around about just, you know, like, yeah, [00:26:35] yeah. Because then the days going by quick, you know, if it was a bit of a, there’s a bit of a loner. [00:26:40] It’s just like sitting around going, oh come on, you know I could be doing this. I could be doing that, you know, all [00:26:45] these other things. Yeah. So what happened next?

Prav Solanki: You left that role and you got another, [00:26:50] another role somewhere else.

Kevin Shannon: Is that right? Yeah, I got another role. It was like a Covid. I just, I think [00:26:55] that was like a Covid year or Covid year in a bit. So that was like just, you know, bumming [00:27:00] around pretty much. And yeah. And then I got another I got another [00:27:05] good private job. And then that ended up pretty much in the same fashion. Uh, okay. You know, [00:27:10] not, you know, not not getting on with the managers again. Same same thing. So [00:27:15] then that’s where, you know, there’s a bit of a repetitive pattern here. Maybe, uh, me [00:27:20] maybe, maybe, maybe I am the problem and not everybody else. Yeah. Yeah. [00:27:25]

Prav Solanki: Um, yeah.

Kevin Shannon: So then I got this other, this other job, which I really actually enjoyed. [00:27:30] But then, you know, again.

Prav Solanki: Where was where was the other job? It’s still [00:27:35] still in and around Scotland, Glasgow, where it.

Kevin Shannon: Is around these bits. And I got this job and I really enjoyed [00:27:40] it. And, um, I was kind of building things up and it was getting like quite good. And [00:27:45] then, um, we were just chatting before and you were talking about how you got to this stage [00:27:50] and you just fired all the customers. So, you know, by this, by this point, I’m getting to that [00:27:55] point of like, patients are coming in, I’m going, I don’t want to work with you. Really. Um, and [00:28:00] I’ve had the had you’re talking about these dangers.

Prav Solanki: Why. So I’ve [00:28:05] got a couple of questions in and around this job that you really like. Why did you really like [00:28:10] it? Was the manager in sync with you at that time was, you know. Yes. Because it seems [00:28:15] it seems like the reason why you left these roles is you were butting heads with the manager, right? And [00:28:20] then you get into this role and you’ve just said, I really liked this. Now, was it because you were doing better dentistry, [00:28:25] making more money, or was it just that you had an easier time? Was getting less shit off your manager? What what [00:28:30] made you say that? I really enjoyed this job.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, I had a bit more freedom. Everything. [00:28:35] Everything at the end of the day comes back to me now about freedom. The [00:28:40] freedom to make the decisions, essentially. So yeah, we we had we could we could have the conversations, [00:28:45] we could work things out. And yeah, it was good that way. And. [00:28:50]

Prav Solanki: So you’re in this role. Manager’s not giving [00:28:55] you any grief. You’re enjoying it. And then you turn around. So you turn around. I’ll probably say this to a patient, I [00:29:00] don’t want to work with you, but in your mind, you may think it. I just don’t want to see this. I don’t want to treat [00:29:05] this patient. Whatever. So what? Just talk me through that and what I can next.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. [00:29:10] So I just said to the patient, you know, look, as you should see, [00:29:15] there’s a breakdown in the patient dentist relationship here. I don’t think that [00:29:20] I’m the best dentist for you. Yeah. You don’t seem to be happy with what I’m providing you, [00:29:25] even though you. I’ve asked you multiple times and you’re saying. Yes, but, you know, just [00:29:30] nothing was matching up. Um. And I was like, this is just a complaint waiting to happen. So [00:29:35] I said that I’ll help you find an identity or whatever, blah, blah, blah. And [00:29:40] they just did not like that. It was it was almost like, uh, from [00:29:45] from how I, how I was or what [00:29:50] the situations have happened in these other practices with these managers, how we butted heads, [00:29:55] then we butted heads with the patient. But this time it was like, you know, I [00:30:00] was getting it. This thing is my is my karma. That’s what [00:30:05] it felt like. So they began a tirade that lasted. [00:30:10] By Tay Tay ten months, 11 months [00:30:15] of just complaints. And they were [00:30:20] just essentially just poking everything just until they could find the, the, the link [00:30:25] in the chain. Um, but then again, I’d, [00:30:30] I’d found out from the indemnity that the this was a serial patient [00:30:35] that they were aware of this patient and who they were and what they were doing and all this kind of stuff.

Kevin Shannon: So [00:30:40] then when I found that out as well, then that’s when I was a bit like, I don’t I’m not having that. Like, this [00:30:45] is if they’re going to be doing this at like, I would much rather they did it to me because I can [00:30:50] handle it. Rather than they go round and they get they get the vet and some other practice and they just cause them [00:30:55] untold hell. And then somebody in their home, you know, specially it can’t get to sleep at night and all these things. I was like, no, I’m not [00:31:00] having it. I’m going to I’m going to stick up for myself with this. And. So [00:31:05] I fought against them, which was, you know, I should have just at the end of the day, just gone take [00:31:10] your money back because that’s eventually what happened at the end of the day. And that’s what made them go down. Yeah, [00:31:15] sure. But, you know, sometimes it’s hard to do that.

Prav Solanki: Yeah yeah yeah yeah [00:31:20] yeah. So what happened next in your career, Kevin. In this in this better job. [00:31:25] Obviously you had a problem. Patient management was okay. How did you get from there? To [00:31:30] retiring from dentistry and now being a [00:31:35] dental software entrepreneur. What was the journey?

Kevin Shannon: So, [00:31:40] well, off the back of those patients, I was like. If [00:31:45] I had. You don’t because my notes are not good. My [00:31:50] notes are not good. My consent forms, things just, [00:31:55] you know, and actually, I had quite a lot of stuff for those patients. But at the end of the day, it still wasn’t good [00:32:00] enough. So I was like, see if I could have just had like a for like a form that [00:32:05] said, look, and it’s not for the GDC, really. It was more just so I could say to them, look, I [00:32:10] told you all of this, it is here, it’s written down, you know, and if it was just easier for me to do [00:32:15] that. And so I thought, right, I’m going to make a thing that does that [00:32:20] and just see what happens. So I just gave it a go. It worked, and [00:32:25] I went on to found Dentist by Dentist Facebook group, and I just posted a [00:32:30] thing on there and said, I’ve made this thing I make, I make a WhatsApp group. Anybody can join it if they want to join it. [00:32:35]

Prav Solanki: And what was the thing? Tell me about this thing. What was it? Describe this thing that you met and you were still, at this point, [00:32:40] a practising clinical dentist. Right? Or not?

Kevin Shannon: Still dentistry?

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Still doing dentistry. [00:32:45] Describe the thing that you’d made and what problem is solved.

Kevin Shannon: So it’s like it’s [00:32:50] just simply what it is is it’s, uh, some buttons and each one says composite bridge, [00:32:55] crown, whatever. All your different treatments. Yeah. And then you just put the patient’s name in on the website. [00:33:00]

Prav Solanki: Interface type thing.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. On the website interface. So then you just log on under [00:33:05] that, click the button did, did, did whatever treatments you want to do composite bridge extraction [00:33:10] hit generate and then give you a big form just like an under 10s. [00:33:15] So I posted that on people are like oh and it generated a bit. It’s funny when I posted that I was like, so like, oh my [00:33:20] god, are they going to delete my post? Am I going to? I was so anxious about the film thing. I think if people are going to think I’m an idiot, I’m [00:33:25] going to anyway. And then I ended up like over 200 dentists in the Facebook group and in the WhatsApp [00:33:30] group. So I was like, okay, like there’s something there’s something in this here that.

Prav Solanki: I’m still trying to wrap my [00:33:35] head around. What? You created a web interface where you press Composite bridge or whatever. You press a button and it [00:33:40] generates a form. What does that generates a form with what? Like what [00:33:45] information or what consent form. Right. Yes. Okay. Got you. Sorry I [00:33:50] missed the point there. So basically what you’ve done is you’ve created a piece of software [00:33:55] that no matter what treatment is press a couple of buttons. Boom. There’s your consent [00:34:00] form. Hand it over to the patient. It’s got you back. Yeah. And you spent the [00:34:05] time going through all the information that you had about consent forms and thought, I’m [00:34:10] going to make life easier for them. Now when it comes to consent, I’ve got a button you can press no matter what treatment [00:34:15] is. Boom. There’s concern for any kind of commercial thing [00:34:20] behind this. Or was this just like a, hey, I’m going to give this out to the world and [00:34:25] see what feedback I get, and I want to get some validation from my community. [00:34:30] I’ve, I’ve, I created something that’s only useful for me. Or is it useful for the rest of the community? [00:34:35]

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. I mean, there was a bit of that. There was a bit of as well thinking like, you know, after [00:34:40] having that with those patients, I was thinking, is this, is this what I want to be doing? You know, [00:34:45] like, because I’m, I waking up in the morning, am I happy? And I’m starting to [00:34:50] get to that realisation of that maybe this just isn’t the thing for me. So [00:34:55] yeah. So I guess I just I put it out there. I mean, there was, there’s obviously the thought of [00:35:00] the commercial output of it, but at that point in time, um, [00:35:05] it was like I was just giving people a tenner just to cover some running [00:35:10] costs. And like a few people signing up, a few people signed up, like almost straight away, [00:35:15] and they’re still paying a tenner. Ten a month, ten a month. They, uh, [00:35:20] and they’re still paying a tenner. I’ve just let for for the early support. I was like, you can keep it. [00:35:25] You can keep it as a tenner. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Early adopters. Yeah. Um, founding members.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. Indeed. [00:35:30] Indeed. Which I’m very grateful for. Um, but. Yeah, but then the feedback [00:35:35] was good and then it was just all the other ideas and things that people were having. And then I was thinking, well, there must [00:35:40] then there must be a way that we can just make everything else more efficient, because I did, you [00:35:45] know, I I’ve got that obsession with efficiency. Everything’s like, you know, you pick [00:35:50] that up and you use it until it’s done with, and then you put it down and then. Having [00:35:55] the bend in the right place so the nurse isn’t having to walk around the boat. Um, I [00:36:00] always like the the Ray Kroc story about setting up the McDonald’s and having all. Yeah, you [00:36:05] know, systemised.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Kevin Shannon: And there’s that. There’s the movie where they make it and [00:36:10] you see them designing it and the the basketball field, and they draw it all out and stuff like that, you know, [00:36:15] just having it all. So you’re just not wasting any movements, I get it. [00:36:20] Um, so I thought that from that after that point, um, I [00:36:25] thought, well, I’ll just have a look at maybe doing some notes next, because that’s the thing I was rubbish at, um. [00:36:30]

Prav Solanki: As well. Okay. So what happened? So what happened next? [00:36:35] You’ve created this piece of software, you maintain a tenner a month off a bunch of dentists. [00:36:40] You’re still working as a dentist. But in your mind, what’s going on? [00:36:45] Are you saying I actually want to quit? What did you say? I want to quit dentistry. [00:36:50] Until full time into this software development. Quick and easy [00:36:55] for them was the returning point was a rapacious what what [00:37:00] happened? And what was that day where you said, right, I’m done. I’m handing the drive up now for God.

Kevin Shannon: Hey, [00:37:05] well, I think I was. We went because you’re in Manchester, aren’t you? Yeah, [00:37:10] yeah. Had a big night out in Manchester. And then after that, you know, rough [00:37:15] hung over and things. I was like, man, this is just not the, the [00:37:20] way to be going through life. I don’t think so. I was like, I’m going to make a few changes. [00:37:25] So I started making just start making those changes. So I stopped. So [00:37:30] I left my work at that point and I thought, I’m going to give this my all here [00:37:35] with really no safety net whatsoever. Just dive in and. [00:37:40] Diving two feet first, because I knew if I was still kind of hovering about [00:37:45] dentistry. I just I just didn’t see how that was going to work. I was like, am I [00:37:50] enjoy this? Like when I’m doing this, I’m it’s filling me with like some sort of pleasure. [00:37:55] So, um, maybe I should just give it my all. So that’s what I did. Stop [00:38:00] working in.

Prav Solanki: Making that decision of stopping the work. Was [00:38:05] there a moment where you thought, okay, now the software bit is making me enough money for me [00:38:10] to afford to give up? Was there was there a a financial decision here, or did you just think, you know, [00:38:15] dentistry is not for me. And in order for me to give this everything, [00:38:20] I need to stop doing dentistry. Where was your head at that point? Because I [00:38:25] speak to a lot of I have a want to be business owners or business owners that have got like, let’s [00:38:30] say, a side hustle and this, that and the other. And the advice I usually give them is this you’ve [00:38:35] just opened a squat and you’re working three associate jobs. There’s a point where you’re going to have to give [00:38:40] those up and put 110% into that squat, otherwise it’s going to be as successful as [00:38:45] 15% of your time, energy and headspace you’re putting into it. So you either go all [00:38:50] in. Will you carry on plodding along, and your business will always be a fraction [00:38:55] of what it is. And then that’s always the advice I give when it comes to sort of taking [00:39:00] this high risk approach. And where is your head at that time? What [00:39:05] were you thinking in terms of, well, what money have I got coming in? Did you have some savings in the bank [00:39:10] and thought, do you know what, I can cover myself for a few months or a year or whatever, but I’m going to go all in on this [00:39:15] now. And actually, I’ve had enough of dentistry. Well, where was your head?

Kevin Shannon: I [00:39:20] definitely couldn’t afford it. Definitely couldn’t afford to do it at that point. Um, [00:39:25] interesting. My. Yeah, my partner has supported [00:39:30] the beginning of this business. Like, it would have been completely impossible to do it without [00:39:35] Sophie. Like allowing me just to live.

Prav Solanki: Kudos [00:39:40] to Sophie.

Kevin Shannon: Kudos to Sophie. Yes yes indeed. Yes indeed. Brilliant. [00:39:45] Yes. She’s she’s allowed me to to do it. She’s like being because [00:39:50] this isn’t like to me this does not feel like real work. You know, like getting up and just mucking [00:39:55] about on a computer all day is is so easy compared to dentistry, [00:40:00] you know, it’s that it’s like it’s such a difficult it’s a difficult job. It’s [00:40:05] you need to work so hard like this is just, you know, this is nothing [00:40:10] really compared to doing that. So I’m really grateful for her for, uh, allowing [00:40:15] me to do that. But yeah, no, I couldn’t I couldn’t afford it. But that’s why I’ve, I [00:40:20] it’s one of those things I’ve don’t really I’ve never really taken a pause to think and make a decision. I think with all [00:40:25] these things we’ve been speaking about the dentistry, the jobs. I’ve just [00:40:30] always, um. Made a snap decision and just just random. Um, [00:40:35] which is. I guess in the short term being [00:40:40] to my detriment. But over the longer term, I think all the things have worked out because it’s all led to this [00:40:45] point.

Prav Solanki: I always think that certainly [00:40:50] the people I work with are myself the hardest, [00:40:55] the biggest, the boldest decisions that I’ve made or even [00:41:00] those that I’ve observed other people have made have led to the biggest successes. [00:41:05] Like, how did that decision or the more difficult it is, or where you’re at that cliff edge and you [00:41:10] think, should I jump? Or should I just ease back and get myself a rope and lowered [00:41:15] myself down slowly? Do you see what I mean? Like those that have made the leap and the [00:41:20] risky jumps. Those are the decisions that have had the biggest impact. [00:41:25] And it just sounds like you’ve just sort of like, screw it. Just going all in now. Right. [00:41:30] Yeah. Um, this is it.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. But like you’re saying, there’s like, I know what that other [00:41:35] I know what that other road is. If you go that other road, you know what’s going to happen. It’s going to be a [00:41:40] bit easier and a bit more comfortable, you know? And that’s fine. Maybe. But yeah, um, [00:41:45] this is a bit more of an adventure because I have absolutely no idea what’s going to happen. [00:41:50] Um, I always had a I’ve always had a path. Set out for me [00:41:55] from school. You could do this. You get these grades, you go here. You do this year, you do that, you do [00:42:00] five years of this, then you do the VTI, then you get the job. Then I got the [00:42:05] job and I was like, oh my God. Like, well, you know, 35 years of this. And it just I [00:42:10] felt like I was just gonna say it. Yeah, like I could. And that’s why I didn’t want to get a practice, [00:42:15] because there was, there was all there could have been opportunities for that to buy any practices or anything. And I just thought [00:42:20] I. So then I was at that, I was at that crossroads of like, I, where am I going to go with this? Because I [00:42:25] do not want to own a practice. It just wasn’t it just wasn’t for me. After thinking it was something that I really wanted to do. [00:42:30] Um, yeah. Yeah. So yeah.

Prav Solanki: Okay. [00:42:35] So you’ve got this concern for generally are you [00:42:40] getting ideas from clinicians? So tell me about now [00:42:45] your journey as a computer maker about a software [00:42:50] guy, SAS producer call it whatever you want. Right. You know, I think I was mentioning [00:42:55] earlier that, you know, I think I signed up to a free trial period of this software. [00:43:00] And as a non clinician, I mucked about with it and I pretended to play [00:43:05] dentist. And the AI generated a transcript of what I’ve said, which [00:43:10] is a mancunian. It says it’s not an easy thing to do. There’s other software platforms that think I’m Welsh and, [00:43:15] um, it produced a pretty accurate transcript. But what I, what I was really [00:43:20] impressed with was the summary that it produced and the notes. And then I spoke to jazz [00:43:25] about it and I said, this is effing insane. They just did this, that. And it really goes, mate, you’ve [00:43:30] not scratched the surface. Have a look at jazz mode. He goes, what that will do. [00:43:35] And this is how I describe your software. And I like to look at things from a very, [00:43:40] very simple point of view is that I can now have a consultation with [00:43:45] a patient flicky software on and wear a microphone and forget about my notes. [00:43:50] And then what I do is that instead of thinking, I’ve got to do this consultation [00:43:55] and write the notes and do all the content razzmatazz, I just have a conversation with gauged [00:44:00] with that patient or jazz says what he’s done is he’s slightly [00:44:05] changed how he talks to patients so that the software captures things [00:44:10] in the right way. But it’s small tweaks. And then at the end of the consultation, [00:44:15] the notes are written, but he’ll still cast his eye over it and maybe tweak [00:44:20] a few things.

Prav Solanki: But he’s telling me now that the amount of tweaking he has to do is become less [00:44:25] and less, and you notice it don’t. You’re not worried? As my nurse got my back, [00:44:30] did she capture that thing I said or this thing? And the AI [00:44:35] summary is insane. And then it produces your treatment letter for you, and that’s pretty decent as [00:44:40] well. And so when I sort of like, how do you speak to this guy? This is brilliant. Absolutely [00:44:45] amazing. And if jazz endorses it then it must be okay. And [00:44:50] so we see you here at this point where you’ve created a piece of software that I think is [00:44:55] is amazing. And from my perspective, somebody who teaches sales [00:45:00] and communication and is involved in that part of the patient journey for a lot of practices [00:45:05] and a lot of the courses that are done, anything that gives you time back [00:45:10] with the patient so you can develop a better relationship with them, have more rapport, and [00:45:15] not be thinking in the background and distracted about this thing called nurse [00:45:20] has got a bit positive, right? So you’ve produced this software [00:45:25] is where it is. Tell me about like the day in the life of a SAS product [00:45:30] owner. Where’s your head at now? How many people are using your platform? What’s [00:45:35] the best thing about it and what’s the worst that what are the bugs? Tell me about [00:45:40] the things that have gone wrong, as well as as somebody who’s got a piece of software myself that [00:45:45] loads of stuff go wrong. So I just want to learn about the highs and lows of that. Right. [00:45:50] As somebody who’s created a piece of software that people have signed up to. Yeah.

Kevin Shannon: So [00:45:55] I guess the day in the life is, is I’ll get a wake up and [00:46:00] I go. Which, and this is interesting because as a dentist, [00:46:05] I never woke up and I thought, right, how can I go and help people today? It was all it was always, how [00:46:10] can I go and put as much money as I possibly can into my pocket?

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Kevin Shannon: You know, just [00:46:15] being honest was very much.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, yeah.

Kevin Shannon: Pretty much the thinking. But it’s now.

Prav Solanki: And [00:46:20] what’s and what’s getting in the way of the pocket is a few fill ins, some align the treatment blah [00:46:25] blah, blah, blah blah. And those are jobs and tasks that you’re going to do that’s going to generate [00:46:30] cash at the end of the month. And that is purely how you saw it, right?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. Just completely like [00:46:35] a transactional thing. But it’s not a good way to be doing that job. Cool. Okay. [00:46:40] What’s the shift?

Prav Solanki: What’s the shift now? As, as as a guy who’s producing [00:46:45] software. What is this. What is the shift for you? Helping people.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, [00:46:50] okay, I can go, right? I wake up and I go, right, how can I? What can I do that’s going to help people today? [00:46:55] And I can do it all day. I could start at 6:00 and I could finish at 10:00 at night. I could [00:47:00] finish at 11:00. I could be literally sitting there all day. Some days I get up and I go, oh my God, I’ve [00:47:05] hardly moved today. My legs are like, you know that? Like jelly and numb.

Prav Solanki: And another [00:47:10] feeling. Yeah.

Kevin Shannon: So but it’s just like it’s complete passion. Like I really just enjoy [00:47:15] it because you’re doing different things, chatting to people, sorting things out for people and improving [00:47:20] it, building other features. Like, I can see [00:47:25] where it’s all because you’re asking me, you know, what was my product roadmap and all that for this? Like, [00:47:30] it all just exists in my head and on the back of napkins that are all scribbled around about the place at the moment. It needs to just get a little [00:47:35] bit more tightened up. It’s called it’s called forward. I think that’s really the next [00:47:40] kind of stages building a team. So I really need to do. But yeah, so the [00:47:45] the good things are well it’s at the moment it’s in over 350 practices. [00:47:50] We’ve got 350 practices using it. So that’s.

Prav Solanki: Amazing.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. [00:47:55] And a really short period of time. And you got.

Prav Solanki: 300 and have you got 350 subscribers [00:48:00] using it.

Kevin Shannon: Um, yes.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Kevin Shannon: Pushed [00:48:05] over that.

Prav Solanki: And out of interest of those 350 [00:48:10] subscribers, how many of them are using it every day in their [00:48:15] day to day consultation process?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, but probably [00:48:20] looking a bit like it’s probably about 80% at the moment. What’s [00:48:25] happening is it’s becoming like an integral thing. [00:48:30] Yeah. You know, if sometimes I’ll get these messages like, oh, this is it’s not working, you know, and [00:48:35] it’s like your microphone is running out of battery, you know. But it’s the, the, the panic [00:48:40] that I can sense is like, oh, this is yeah. You know, it kind of makes me smile a little bit [00:48:45] like I’ve built something that’s become so useful that without it it’s like, oh, what am I going to do? [00:48:50] I’m actually going to have to write this, write these notes. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: And so [00:48:55] it’s almost becoming the way of working for clinicians for, for at least the I [00:49:00] would say, well, maybe 300 out of the 350 or so clinicians who are using it. It’s become [00:49:05] that way of working. Right?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. Um, yeah. So we’re over [00:49:10] like 20,000 notes created.

Prav Solanki: Wow.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. [00:49:15] It’s just it’s crazy.

Prav Solanki: So how many how much communication do [00:49:20] you have with your users? Do you have a sort of. Do you get a ton of emails every day and you say, great, I’ve got to sift [00:49:25] through this. There’s these 20 are asking this question, which I’ve answered [00:49:30] a hundred times. So I’m going to create a little video and send this out. What’s your how do you deal [00:49:35] with the product feedback? For us, when we’re developing products, we take [00:49:40] everything in from our customers. Then that goes to the team. And [00:49:45] then we look at it and say, right, what is the biggest impact we can have with our software? [00:49:50] That’s going to be the easiest thing to implement that will impact the most people. And then we have [00:49:55] like a matrix of what our roadmap looks like and how are we going to do it. How do you deal with [00:50:00] like with that many users, all the people requesting things, [00:50:05] telling you, hey, this isn’t working. If only you could do this. It’s just done this. It’s just done that. What? What’s your [00:50:10] day look like? Are you dealing with that throughout the day? Are you dealing with actually [00:50:15] producing, writing code or producing the software? What what what [00:50:20] are you doing?

Kevin Shannon: I don’t really have too much problems with people using it [00:50:25] because I’ve done the job. It’s built to be easy to use, [00:50:30] easy to update, easy for dentists. And the little example I give is like [00:50:35] your GI, you know, any product that you buy or material that you use [00:50:40] has this simple instructions. You put this on and you do this and you do it like a monkey could do it. [00:50:45] That’s how I’ve built it. Like it should be easy to understand. There is a [00:50:50] kind of small learning curve with it, so it’s a lot of the time it’s trying to explain the concept [00:50:55] of how it works, because there’s a specific concept behind it that [00:51:00] once that’s understood, then the rest of it’s just it’s all pretty straightforward. So I [00:51:05] have some times just a little bit of explaining of the concept, um, or [00:51:10] adjusting some things for people. At the moment I’m just trying to do [00:51:15] some, um, uh, marketing things, just kind of get it out there a bit more making [00:51:20] making some ads, making videos, these kind of things. These are all these kind of things that I learned [00:51:25] when I was working with Mark, like how important that is. Yeah. To be doing, getting getting [00:51:30] the videos, getting the stuff and all that. Um, the thing I love the most is the coding. [00:51:35] I love doing it. I love creating the okay, how can we get this to work? And just the problem [00:51:40] solving of that, however, it’s I don’t know if it’s where I’m going to be best placed. [00:51:45] Going forward, you know, as we’re building a team up and whatnot. [00:51:50] So it’s a really.

Prav Solanki: Interesting thing you said earlier on in this podcast. And he said when [00:51:55] I was thinking about dentistry. I was also thinking about doing [00:52:00] maths. Yeah, right. And and what [00:52:05] you do and certainly what my software engineers, the way their brain thinks [00:52:10] and they’re some of the best software engineers are very good mathematicians. [00:52:15] Yeah. And they use mathematical basis to their problem [00:52:20] solving, if that makes sense. And as soon as you said that, I thought to myself [00:52:25] that maybe the reason why you’ve landed here is your brain is [00:52:30] a logical mathematical software development type setup [00:52:35] where that’s where you get your kicks. Yeah. That’s what [00:52:40] drives you. That’s what gives you your sense of accomplishment. And even now you’ve just [00:52:45] said, I like getting stuck into the weeds of the code. Yeah. Which [00:52:50] I am guessing, Kevin, because you are not a software developer by [00:52:55] education or trade or whatever, you kind of having to learn it as you go along as [00:53:00] well, right? So you write in the code, you’re learning about it, you’re figuring out how to make it more efficient [00:53:05] or whatever, but you’re not a software developer as such. And [00:53:10] so I think it’s incredibly amazing that you’ve built a piece of software that’s 350 [00:53:15] people are paying money for, and it’s making a difference and it’s impacting [00:53:20] their every day. And have you written every line of code? Yeah, yeah, [00:53:25] yeah. It’s pretty amazing isn’t it?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. It’s been a lot of YouTubing [00:53:30] and all that good stuff and googling things, but it’s [00:53:35] just like it’s all there for you. Like it’s, you know, if it’s if it’s the kind of thing that you [00:53:40] that you like to know, it’s there. And that’s [00:53:45] the thing, you know, dentistry’s very closed with it’s, um, education. Everything’s [00:53:50] you go to university and after that, if you want to learn anything more, it’s, you got to go do all these courses, all [00:53:55] this kind of stuff. Tech is just all out there on online for free to learn.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, [00:54:00] yeah, but you can say that. But but how many people have implemented [00:54:05] and executed this. Right. So it’s all about execution as well right. Yeah for sure. [00:54:10] And so what what are the next steps for digital TCL as you see it [00:54:15] Kevin. Like I’m assuming now that um, you don’t need to rely too much on something.now [00:54:20] and um, you can you can treat it to dinner every now and then and, um, you [00:54:25] know, take her out and whatnot, and she’s not having to support you as much. And things are [00:54:30] looking better financially for you.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, yeah, we’ve got a bit more freedom. [00:54:35] Um, again, although, like, I was, we went out for dinner last night, [00:54:40] and, uh, that was a little treat. Okay, let’s go get some dinner or we’ll go to the place that you like for food. And then. So [00:54:45] we ended up having anaphylaxis, so I don’t really know how to treat that was maybe I should just stay [00:54:50] on the computer, you know. Um. Yeah. Yeah. But the. Yeah, [00:54:55] I think my, my vision has always been that if you’re doing something on a computer. So it [00:55:00] started off with a consent forms, but it’s also just the repetitive nature of everything on the computer and having [00:55:05] to or when I click on the patient record I have [00:55:10] to click here, click there, click there to find out the piece of information that I want to find. I [00:55:15] just want I see this vision where I just everything is really efficient. It just all [00:55:20] works the way you want it to work. Um, like an iPhone of [00:55:25] management management software in the in the dental surgery [00:55:30] essentially like the real vision is you chart, you do your composite, you charge it [00:55:35] through and everything else happens. That’s it. All you need to do is just click that charge charge button. [00:55:40] That’s it. That’s what I want to make.

Prav Solanki: An absolutely [00:55:45] seamless user experience. Right. The the simplest and the simplest requires [00:55:50] no training, requires no instruction manual. You [00:55:55] just go there, press that button. Everything else just happens in the background.

Kevin Shannon: Ideally, [00:56:00] you know, it sounds a bit like a pipe dream, isn’t it? No, it’s a bit, uh, a bit mad, but I [00:56:05] think I can see it. And I think this is it’s my naivety and [00:56:10] my lack of because I’ve spoken to people that this is what I want to do. And they go, oh, we’ve thought about [00:56:15] doing this and, you know, but because I’ve not really thought about doing it and I don’t have that knowledge [00:56:20] about it, then I’m like, okay, well, I’ll just I’ll just give it a go and deal with the challenges as and when they, they arise. [00:56:25] Um, rather than sitting there worrying, I won’t be able to do this, am I going to get that done? Because [00:56:30] I’ll just. I’ll not get anywhere if that’s, um. The mode of modus operandi.

Prav Solanki: So [00:56:35] what? So where? Where is your digital teeth? You got 300 [00:56:40] users. Now, if you to wave a magic wand or if you say, look. Well, this is [00:56:45] what my dream is. Where is it? How far can this product go, [00:56:50] do you think in terms of I know you said you’ve got a few clients in the States and they’re [00:56:55] not as worried about their nose, so it’s not as big a deal or whatever. So do [00:57:00] you see this? Do you see yourself sort of sort of dominating the UK [00:57:05] market mainly. Is that is that the addressable market for you or are you sort of thinking [00:57:10] actually the boundaries are not anywhere, and you want to take this product [00:57:15] essentially global? What does that what does that look like if we if we [00:57:20] if let’s say we were sat here in, um, 1st of June 2025 [00:57:25] and we were sat having a meal or a drink at a bar [00:57:30] or something, and you looked back to this day, what must [00:57:35] have happened for you to say this has been a success? I have really smashed [00:57:40] this year. What’s what’s in your vision for the next 12 months?

Kevin Shannon: Um, [00:57:45] I want to I want to get, like, the next thing I’ve got coming is [00:57:50] a treatment planner process. So have that coming in with users using that [00:57:55] and then. Have probably. Also [00:58:00] more just more people on this, because the more people that are using this, the better is going to get. [00:58:05] The more people that are using digital TCO is just going to get exponentially better. But the main thing [00:58:10] is, is I think to have like version one of the patient management system. Yeah, [00:58:15] built and maybe a couple of people on using that. That [00:58:20] would be the ideal thing for the for the next year. But [00:58:25] over maybe the next 5 to 10, I would like it to be just a thing that [00:58:30] everybody uses. It’s just that this is just the thing that’s in the in [00:58:35] the.

Prav Solanki: Lack of trust we need safe.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. And like a scanner should be for [00:58:40] everybody as well. That should be a thing that everybody.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, just has.

Kevin Shannon: Scanners, intraoral camera. [00:58:45]

Prav Solanki: But it sounds like it is the thing for those 300 dentists, [00:58:50] right? That, like you say, that if they think it’s broken or something, it’s like the world’s [00:58:55] falling apart, right? You can sense the anxiety that. Hold on a minute. My digital tko’s not [00:59:00] here today. Um, see what I mean? So I think I think it is the same for, [00:59:05] for a lot of people right now. Um, yeah. I guess it’s just taking that to the masses, [00:59:10] right?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, I think I think really that would be the answer is to have my [00:59:15] 1000 true fans. Because that’s really what I’m trying. That’s really what I’m trying to build. I’m really [00:59:20] trying to make something for for the people. So it’s so cheesy, right? But like, [00:59:25] if I could have that in a year’s time, that would be pretty good. Amazing.

Prav Solanki: Okay. [00:59:30] And, um, so how do people get access to this? I know you’ve got, um, [00:59:35] obviously your website and stuff, and, uh, do you offer, like a free trial or something like that? [00:59:40] So Dennis can can play around with it and whatnot? How if, if I’m [00:59:45] a dentist listening to this podcast, I think, oh, this digital SEO sounds all right. How do [00:59:50] I get involved and where do I sign up?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, just Google it. Go [00:59:55] with the website digital Tsuyako UK. Uh, you can try it for 28 days [01:00:00] for free. There’s different methods, so you can just dive straight into doing the full appointment [01:00:05] recordings, but you don’t even have to do that. Like there’s other there’s other things that it’s all [01:00:10] fully explained out. I take I take people through the process of how I would recommend that they actually [01:00:15] go about using it. Um, but to really to start off, you just need any sort of microphone [01:00:20] that you can plug in and you’re good to go. You have a button, you speak your notes [01:00:25] and then that’s it. It’s done. So just try it. Try 28 days. Yeah, hopefully it just [01:00:30] makes life a little bit easier. What are the.

Prav Solanki: What are the downsides of this piece of software? [01:00:35] I spoke to a few dentists about and they said, yeah, but what if the AI gets things wrong [01:00:40] and then drops me in the shit and and stuff like that? So have you had any sort [01:00:45] of negatives about that?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, but people do worry about that. Like the [01:00:50] AI is going to make stuff up. But yeah, it’s not designed. It’s not designed [01:00:55] that way. Because what it does is it takes your voice input and converts [01:01:00] that into notes. So it’s not making anything up. It’s just taking what you tell it and writing [01:01:05] it out nicely. And a very, very simplified format. Um, [01:01:10] but at the end of the day, it’s like it’s just a note taking system. Like anything else, it’s still [01:01:15] the dentist responsibility to check it and make sure that. That [01:01:20] is correct because it’s there. It’s your patience, your record. At the end of the day, what [01:01:25] it does is, is it just makes it 95% easier to do that.

Prav Solanki: Um. [01:01:30]

Kevin Shannon: The other the other problem is, um, there’s a couple of funny things. [01:01:35] Well, well, the other problem is people not understanding the overall concept of it because it works differently [01:01:40] from other systems, which is other things like addition and subtraction [01:01:45] to the notes. This is not addition or subtraction. That’s not how it works. Um, it addition subtraction [01:01:50] to templates. Sorry. Um, doesn’t work like that. And the the funniest [01:01:55] thing that people have a thing is about the output style. They don’t like the style, they [01:02:00] would rather they could have bold headings. And it said the tooth in this [01:02:05] format or that format. Never mind that it does it for you automatically. It’s not. Yeah. No it’s not I [01:02:10] like I like to have a line break at that point, you know whatever. So yeah. Are you working [01:02:15] on that? Um, yeah. Working on it. However, it’s very small. [01:02:20] You know, there’s a balance that has to be struck between not [01:02:25] having to do any work and the style [01:02:30] of the output.

Prav Solanki: I get it, you know, the, the we’ve got, we’ve [01:02:35] got the piece of software. Right. And we got a lot of, um, a lot of people saying, well, if we could do this or we [01:02:40] could do that, and we think, just think about what it’s already doing for you. Right? It’s a bit like patience, [01:02:45] I think. I take it like this. It’s a bit like patients who come in and their teeth [01:02:50] are mashed. Right. Absolute car crash. Right. And you come in and you give them [01:02:55] perfectly straight teeth and they look beautiful and all the rest of it, and they come back and go, but this little [01:03:00] tooth is a millimetre off. And this little thing gave me like look at you before [01:03:05] picture, you buffoon. Yeah. This is where you started me and but [01:03:10] you know, I think I think the thing is with software that you will always have people [01:03:15] giving you feedback. And I think feedback is, is a great [01:03:20] thing for product development. It’s just. How [01:03:25] you integrate that into the future. Right. And so maybe making this [01:03:30] thing bold is not as important. And headaches and migraines line breaks [01:03:35] as as writing your treatment plan for you for example. Right. Like [01:03:40] that’s definitely a bigger, more important problem to solve. And you’ve just got to manage those challenges. [01:03:45] Has there ever been a point during the development of this [01:03:50] where things went absolutely tits up and you had a really low moment.

Kevin Shannon: And [01:03:55] it’s not that’s not happening quite yet. There was a day, though, where [01:04:00] um, it was quite early on. And I [01:04:05] just thought, I think I just actually it’s got shared around a bit. And then a [01:04:10] WhatsApp group run about it’s not my, not my thing that I had, but another group. Yeah, it was [01:04:15] like a big burst of signups. It happened. And then that day it just all completely crashed [01:04:20] and I wasn’t anywhere near the flat I was that was out. So I had to sprint halfway across Glasgow, [01:04:25] um, to get back in here. And I had to very, very quickly recode [01:04:30] just, just everything that was like the that [01:04:35] was the how long did that take?

Prav Solanki: How long did that take?

Kevin Shannon: Well, I say record everything. I just did the certain [01:04:40] bit. I just fixed the, the crash bits. I think it went down about 11:00 [01:04:45] and I had it back up by one. So a couple of hours. But this is this is the thing. It’s just me that’s doing this. [01:04:50] So I’m. Going forward as well, that in a year’s time, having a having [01:04:55] a team a bit of. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Do you have any concerns [01:05:00] about that next step like going from UI, the [01:05:05] developer, the marketeer, the customer support, the [01:05:10] guy that deals with things when shit goes wrong, the product roadmap guy [01:05:15] you are the business right? Do you have any sort of concerns [01:05:20] anxieties like you must have thought about what the future is. What’s holding you back? What? What [01:05:25] are your, um, what’s stopping you jumping off that cliff and making that leap and setting out on the [01:05:30] go for it now. No.

Kevin Shannon: What about the team and all this kind of stuff and giving it up? [01:05:35]

Prav Solanki: Well, you did it. You did it with.

Kevin Shannon: Dentistry.

Prav Solanki: Right? You hung your drill up and said, I’m out of it. Yeah. [01:05:40] Dropped your mike and said, this is me done now, right? I’m going fully Sophie’s [01:05:45] support me. Happy days. Right. What’s the next big [01:05:50] leap with this? And is it getting the team? Is anything holding you back? [01:05:55]

Kevin Shannon: Uh, there’s nothing really holding me back, I guess. [01:06:00] For example.

Prav Solanki: For example. Trust.

Kevin Shannon: Um, [01:06:05] I’m not so sure about this trust thing. I think I would trust people. I mean, it is [01:06:10] I am a bit of a control freak over it and that trying not to micromanage every single [01:06:15] detail of it. Yeah. But I think because I’ve been, you know, [01:06:20] speaking to people, they’ve said, you know, oh. You could hire, you know, software [01:06:25] engineer and things like that. And I think that I’m not sure if that’s the road that would go down for building [01:06:30] the team. It would be more the marketing and the interesting sales. And, [01:06:35] you know, all those kind of things would be more, more beneficial. Yeah. [01:06:40] Well, hope is holding me back really. Just even more. I [01:06:45] either need to go out and get investment or I need more numbers so that I can pay people. [01:06:50]

Prav Solanki: Uh, yeah. Essentially.

Kevin Shannon: So at the moment, it’s got to a point where [01:06:55] it’s allowing me to live my life. And from the business and do all this kind of [01:07:00] thing. But it’s not a stage where I could be going out and hiring a team of people. [01:07:05] So it’s either that I just keep on bootstrapping it or it’s investment.

Prav Solanki: Okay, so [01:07:10] how many subscribers do you think you would need? Before [01:07:15] you’re able to. So it’s either a [01:07:20] investment thing or it’s a I’ve got enough subscribers so that [01:07:25] it’s making enough money to be able to fund the team. Where does [01:07:30] that what does that need to be for you to say? Right, I can get a team on board now, whether [01:07:35] it’s marketing, whether it’s the software development side of things. I would [01:07:40] be in a marketeer myself and a software [01:07:45] guy. I’d probably argue that you need the software people, [01:07:50] right? But that’s that’s just my opinion, right? You’ve without [01:07:55] that, you’ve single handedly created a phenomenal platform [01:08:00] that supports 300 plus dentists. I mean, that’s that’s [01:08:05] phenomenal. For somebody who was bootstrapped that as an individual and done [01:08:10] that herself. So, um, don’t necessarily listen to what I’m telling you to do. Um, it’s [01:08:15] just what I would do. But where does that need to be for you to be able to say, right, this business [01:08:20] can wash its own face and I can get him on board. Is it is it that [01:08:25] thousand raving fans? Is it does it need to be more than that?

Kevin Shannon: I think things started [01:08:30] getting a team sooner than that. To be honest, it’s probably getting quite close. Maybe another 100 to [01:08:35] 100, and your work will really be able to get people on board. But that’s something [01:08:40] that I really don’t know anything about, you know? So it’s really. But as with everything, [01:08:45] it’s just. You’ve just got the go. Go for it and learn as you go and make your mistakes. It’s [01:08:50] really the only way to learn is to do something and be [01:08:55] willing to mess it up.

Prav Solanki: You will make a ton of mistakes, but it’s just it [01:09:00] is the way it is. Do you know what I mean? That’s business. That’s whether it’s practice ownership or software [01:09:05] or whatever. Yeah. Britney and Kevin, this brings me towards the end [01:09:10] of the podcast and we have some we have some questions that we ask all of our guests. [01:09:15] Um, and one of them is that, um, imagine it was your last [01:09:20] day on the planet. Kevin. Yeah. Um, and you were surrounded by your [01:09:25] loved ones, and, um, you had to leave them with three pieces [01:09:30] of wisdom. What would they be?

Kevin Shannon: Three pieces of wisdom.

Prav Solanki: Three [01:09:35] pieces of wisdom that you didn’t put out into the world. What would they be based on your own life [01:09:40] experiences?

Kevin Shannon: And. You have to have the courage [01:09:45] just to do things, especially the things that really scary. You’ve just got [01:09:50] to do them because that’s where most the most growth comes from. That’s where most of my youth has come from, when [01:09:55] I’ve been really scared and I’ve just gone and done it.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Um.

Kevin Shannon: That. [01:10:00] Uh, it’s really important [01:10:05] is to be trying to just be as honest as you can in life. And but, I [01:10:10] mean, it’s like having that vulnerability with people is just really [01:10:15] important. So, so that you can connect with people because if you can’t connect with people, that’s [01:10:20] why you have problems. I think that’s the biggest thing I’ve learned about what we’ve been talking about there with these other jobs that [01:10:25] just are never, ever really connected with anybody. And. [01:10:30] And just. Just enjoy it, isn’t it really? Just try [01:10:35] and enjoy. Just try and enjoy it. Because. If you’re [01:10:40] not enjoying it. It’s not really, it’s not really much point. And if you’re not enjoying [01:10:45] it, just. Do something else. Really change it. Make a change [01:10:50] because you’ll be all right. I think that’s a thing. You’ll be okay. That’ll be my final one. [01:10:55] Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Good. Good. Can you go back to those moments of where [01:11:00] nothing really mattered? You didn’t have a pot to piss in, but you were having loads of fun climbing trees. [01:11:05] Yeah.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, that’s that’s that’s that’s the aim of this. Yeah, [01:11:10] but build a big treehouse.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Brilliant, brilliant. Kevin. Actually, [01:11:15] I’ve got one more question. Payman would shoot me for this. Ask this question. Um, which is [01:11:20] fantasy dinner party. Three people, dead or alive. Who [01:11:25] would they be? Three guests.

Kevin Shannon: Julius Caesar. Napoleon [01:11:30] Bonaparte.

Prav Solanki: And Fatima and. [01:11:35]

Speaker4: Mm. Right?

Kevin Shannon: Probably Steve Jobs. [01:11:40] Good, good, good.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. [01:11:45] Kevin, thanks so much for your time today. Um. It’s been it’s been really cool [01:11:50] speaking to you. And, um, you know, just learning about your journey. [01:11:55] Um, not many people have the courage to just hang up that drill and move on and pursue [01:12:00] their dream of passion. And, uh, I really do hope digital TCO does [01:12:05] very quickly like to sit down with you this time next year and talk about your thousand raving fans [01:12:10] and where, where it’s got to. But but I think it’s really cool that you’ve followed [01:12:15] your passion, taken those leaps and, um, and shared that story with us today.

Kevin Shannon: Well, [01:12:20] thank you so much. I really, really appreciate it. I’ve really enjoyed the conversation we’ve had this morning. It’s been [01:12:25] a good it’s been a good morning. So thank you so much.

[VOICE]: This is Dental [01:12:30] Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [01:12:35] leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. [01:12:40] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for [01:12:45] listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge [01:12:50] thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and [01:12:55] what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value [01:13:00] out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend [01:13:05] who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t [01:13:10] forget our six star rating.