Month: July 2024

Prav Solanki: If I wasn’t humanising that conversation and I just left that person to go away, it would be playing [00:00:05] a game of back and forth tennis radio silence. They wanted to ask me something, [00:00:10] but they thought, am I going to offend Prav by asking this question? Well, not really, because if I open [00:00:15] up and humanise it, that won’t be the case. And this is what you should be doing with your patients.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:20] is Dental Leaders, [00:00:25] the podcast where you get to go one on [00:00:30] one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:00:40]

Prav Solanki: Hey guys, welcome to the Dental Leaders podcast. Um, [00:00:45] I’m afraid it’s a solo episode today. It’s just me and no guest. [00:00:50] And, um, I tend to record these when I’ve got something on my mind, or I’ve got a subject matter [00:00:55] or a topic that I want to speak about and surprise, surprise, [00:01:00] we’re going to be talking about, or I’m going to be speaking about the subject matter of sales, [00:01:05] but more specifically humanising that sales [00:01:10] process. And I think there’s a few things that I want to touch upon. [00:01:15] One of them is if you follow a sales process, if you follow a step [00:01:20] by step guide that I say this, then I say these words. Then I ask this, [00:01:25] then I turn this way and then I do an examination. Then I ask the patient this and ask them that. [00:01:30] And if you’re going through a rigid process, your sales process will always [00:01:35] be rigid and formulaic. And I honestly believe that a really good [00:01:40] sales process revolves around connecting with [00:01:45] other humans in the way that you would connect with your friends, or the way in [00:01:50] which you would connect with your family. In fact, if you haven’t listened to the Todd Williams [00:01:55] episode where he talks about almost bringing your human side to work, [00:02:00] just just rewind back a couple of episodes and listen to that. He really has [00:02:05] made me think about just humanising, or at least thinking about the human side [00:02:10] of what we do and what we bring to work.

Prav Solanki: Right. But I just [00:02:15] want to talk about how we bring this to the sales process [00:02:20] in dentistry, and I want to remove the word process. But even though I’m going to give you [00:02:25] some hints and tips that I think have helped some of my clients, or [00:02:30] at least the conversations I’ve had with clients about, well, how do we get this patient [00:02:35] over the line, right? And whether over the line means getting an answer to them and getting [00:02:40] from them and getting a no, or getting an answer from them and getting a yes. You [00:02:45] know, what does that revolve around? And I think the first point comes from yourself. It’s that inner [00:02:50] confidence, right? If you know that, you can fix that patient’s problem, [00:02:55] if you know that you can confidently deliver the results that they’re looking for [00:03:00] or beyond that with 100% certainty, [00:03:05] or, you know, you’re the best person for that job, or you’ve got the experience, you’ve got the training, you’ve got the [00:03:10] clinical aptitude and belief in yourself in terms of delivery of [00:03:15] clinical outcome service experience. Just [00:03:20] melt all that together and you know you can deliver that 100%. [00:03:25] Then selling becomes a lot easier. It’s when there’s an element of doubt. [00:03:30] If there is an element of doubt in you, whether you can deliver it, if there’s an element of doubt [00:03:35] in you, whether the price that you’re going to pitch that service, that [00:03:40] treatment plan for is going to make that patient second guess you or question [00:03:45] you, and you can’t stand proud against your value or [00:03:50] your price, and you hesitate.

Prav Solanki: And whether that hesitation is in your [00:03:55] voice, whether it’s a stutter, whether it’s just in the tone of your voice, that patient will smell it straight away. [00:04:00] Right? And that that self confidence and that inner belief that you can do [00:04:05] what you say you’re going to do and you truly believe what you’re delivering is exceptional [00:04:10] value, then the whole sales game becomes really, really, really [00:04:15] easy. If you’re confident that you can deliver the results and that you’re fully [00:04:20] aligned with the patient. But let’s just assume that that’s a given, because I can’t help you with [00:04:25] that. But we go back to the conversation [00:04:30] that we have with the patient. I’m not going to take you through the whole consultation process because this [00:04:35] is just a short. I think I’m going to be surprised if I speak for more than 15 minutes [00:04:40] today. Right. Um, but this revolves around a conversation that [00:04:45] I’ve been having with quite a few clients recently, which is what happens when we [00:04:50] get to that point where we present the investment to the patient [00:04:55] and there’s a dance. Okay. And what I mean by the dance is [00:05:00] this, that it’s almost like it’s almost like when, you know, when you’re walking down [00:05:05] the street and there’s someone coming towards you and there’s not enough room. So you move to the left, [00:05:10] but the other person moves to the right, and then you move to the right, and the other person moves to their [00:05:15] left, and you’re almost like dancing, but you want to get past each other, [00:05:20] right and move on.

Prav Solanki: And I think that’s what happens at this part [00:05:25] of the sales process when you present the investment to the patient and [00:05:30] this silence, or you step back because you lack confidence, or [00:05:35] you’re not quite sure how you get that patient to say, yes, I [00:05:40] think I want to go ahead or no, it’s too expensive, or it’s totally misaligned [00:05:45] with what my expectations were and all of the lead gen stuff that happens before that, and what your [00:05:50] receptionist or your TCO, or the people who spoke to that patient beforehand before they came [00:05:55] in to see you, all of that’s obviously important. And in an ideal world, they’ve delivered [00:06:00] everything to you in terms of their price expectations, their result, expectations when they last saw [00:06:05] a dentist, what dental problems they had, whether they’re going to need finance or whether they can self invest [00:06:10] it. All of that razzmatazz. Let’s assume that’s all done, but you still get [00:06:15] to that point where you are having a dance with that patient because you say, [00:06:20] Mr. Smith. So to get your smile from A to B and for you to [00:06:25] wear your best smile on your daughter’s wedding day. Your [00:06:30] investments going to be 12,500 pounds. And [00:06:35] then this silence. And the patient just looks at you in the face and you [00:06:40] look at them, and there’s no progression of that conversation.

Prav Solanki: But if we stop, [00:06:45] if we freeze time in that moment. And let’s think about the clinician, [00:06:50] what do you want to know at this stage? You want to know what’s in that patient’s mind. [00:06:55] Of course you do. And you’re probably thinking to yourself, I want them to I want to [00:07:00] know, well, I want to be able to read their mind, and I want to know if the price [00:07:05] that I have presented is in line with what they expect. Do [00:07:10] they think it is reasonable? Do they think it’s too cheap? Is [00:07:15] it totally out of whack? Is it way too expensive? Or are [00:07:20] we just slightly off the mark and they can’t quite squeeze that extra 100 £200, [00:07:25] right. These are all unknowns that we don’t know. And depending [00:07:30] on what I say next or my next bit of communication will make the difference [00:07:35] between that patient saying, yes, let’s rock and roll or no, I need [00:07:40] to go away and think about it. And even if the patient says, I need to go away and [00:07:45] think about it, is there something else that we could say now, [00:07:50] whilst time is frozen and we flip around to the other side of the table [00:07:55] and implant ourselves in that patient’s mind, they’re thinking to themselves, [00:08:00] can I get this cheaper? Or wow, that’s a bargain. Or [00:08:05] I’m not sure if this dentist can do what he says he can do, because I [00:08:10] wasn’t quite confident in what he said.

Prav Solanki: And there’s some questions he hasn’t quite answered, [00:08:15] but I’m not sure how to ask now because I’ll sound stupid. Or perhaps [00:08:20] that patient is sat there sort of thinking, I need to speak to my other half about [00:08:25] it, whatever it is. And that patient might be thinking, well, I’d love to ask for a discount, [00:08:30] or I’d love to say, can you do it a little bit cheaper? Or I’d love to just sort of say, well, can [00:08:35] you explain that again? Or could I pay it over a period of time [00:08:40] or what happens next? But they but you both part company [00:08:45] because that patient says I need to go and speak to my other half about it. And [00:08:50] if the patient says to you, I need to go away [00:08:55] and think about it. And the consequence of that is you haven’t explored what [00:09:00] that means and that patient walks out. I think you’ve done yourself [00:09:05] an injustice, and you’ve done that patient an injustice because you haven’t had the frank [00:09:10] conversation that you should have had. So here’s my advice [00:09:15] of what you should be doing at the end of that consultation [00:09:20] when you present the offering. So you present it, and we’ll all have very different [00:09:25] ways in which we present price or present the solution, should we say. And my [00:09:30] belief is always try and keep it as simple as possible, maximum 2 or 3 options and tell them what [00:09:35] your preferred option is.

Prav Solanki: Your recommendation is I think that’s along the lines of GDC guidelines, but [00:09:40] present that there’s that silence. You start dancing or you try and dance, but it doesn’t [00:09:45] quite work out. So my advice is, is you try and humanise [00:09:50] that conversation and almost narrate a story with that patient. [00:09:55] So I would say to the patient, Mr. Smith, [00:10:00] I know what I’ve presented to you is probably quite a wide range of different [00:10:05] subjects and topics. And some of it you do understand. Maybe some of it you didn’t. But let [00:10:10] me ask you one question. Do you know when you came in for your consultation and [00:10:15] you walked through our front door about 45 minutes ago, you [00:10:20] had a very clear idea in your mind what was going to happen in this room. [00:10:25] I just want to ask you one question. Has everything [00:10:30] that you thought was going to happen happen? Have I answered all of your questions, [00:10:35] or are you going to walk out of this room thinking, do you know what I wish I’d have asked Prav [00:10:40] this, or I wish I’d have asked that question. Or a don’t quite understand this, [00:10:45] and a lot of the time my patients go away and they kick themselves because they didn’t [00:10:50] ask the questions they wanted to. So I just want to know from your perspective, when you first [00:10:55] stepped in the door or on your journey to our practice, what was [00:11:00] it that you wanted out of this consultation for you to walk out and be totally [00:11:05] delighted with the outcome, or the result of everything that we’ve discussed here today, [00:11:10] and that will open up a conversation just after you’ve presented price. [00:11:15]

Prav Solanki: Okay. Now, based off the narrative of that, you can further [00:11:20] expand that conversation and say to that patient, Mr. [00:11:25] Smith, there’s another thing I want to ask you, and that revolves around the investment [00:11:30] involved in what I’ve just presented to you. Now, I am 100% sure [00:11:35] that maybe on your way here or when you first step through that door, [00:11:40] you had an idea in your mind what the cost or the investment [00:11:45] would be to get your smile to where you want it to be today, am [00:11:50] I correct? Let’s get a yes out of that patient. Yeah, absolutely. Bang on Prav [00:11:55] you are correct. I had a clear idea. Okay. And I’ve just presented you [00:12:00] with the options and the investment involved and what I [00:12:05] want to understand is are we aligned? So is what I’ve [00:12:10] presented to you just now in line with what you thought [00:12:15] the cost or the investment of changing or transforming [00:12:20] your smile would be when you step through the door? Or are we apart by [00:12:25] a certain amount? Where are we? What are we thinking? Prav now if you say to that [00:12:30] patient, what are we thinking? It’s a subtle difference in terms of what are you [00:12:35] thinking, but it makes that patient think that we are working this out [00:12:40] together and that patient will open up to you.

Prav Solanki: Okay? That patient will definitely [00:12:45] open up to you and maybe give you a clue. Now, if you’re off by a few quid, [00:12:50] perhaps you can make something happen. If you’re off by a country mile, maybe your [00:12:55] treatment plan could be staged accordingly. But if that patient opens up to [00:13:00] you in that way and gives you what was going on in their mind as they stepped [00:13:05] into your practice and walked through the door, that will be a lot better [00:13:10] than them walking away and saying, I need to think about. Then your TCO [00:13:15] starts playing tennis, calling the patient. They don’t pick up the phone and you don’t [00:13:20] actually know why they left. And it might be that you didn’t explain the process. [00:13:25] It might be they didn’t show you before and afters that were close [00:13:30] to theirs or whatever. And it might be a money thing, but you get to the bottom of [00:13:35] it. I’ve had clients come back to me after I’ve passed them that advice, [00:13:40] and they’ve told me it’s just really transformed the way that they speak about money. The [00:13:45] way I look at it is all we’re doing is we’re humanising the sales process. [00:13:50] It’s the way you would ask a friend. It’s the way you would speak to a family member. Right? [00:13:55] It’s just sort of almost like map a story out in your mind and just sort of ask [00:14:00] the patient without putting any barriers up.

Prav Solanki: That’s my way of looking at it. [00:14:05] Right? Right? If somebody comes to me and says, hey, Prav, I’m interested in your marketing services and so [00:14:10] on and so forth, and we jump on a zoom discovery call and I’ll always ask this question, get to the end of it. [00:14:15] We’ll present some pricing options and whatnot. And I will ask that person, [00:14:20] so where’s your head at? Yeah. Is first of all, have I answered all your questions? [00:14:25] Is there anything that perhaps I’ve tried to explain to you from a marketing [00:14:30] or a sales or a concept or a practice journey point of view that just doesn’t [00:14:35] resonate? Is it too much, too soon? Is it the fact that you know what [00:14:40] I’ve presented for you from a pricing point of view, is not necessarily in line [00:14:45] with your business growth or your budgeting plan. Like, where’s your head at now? And [00:14:50] what are you thinking? I always get a clear answer back. And even if that person [00:14:55] comes back to me and says, do you know what, Prav, I’m not quite ready to spend that kind of money or I’m not quite [00:15:00] ready to move ahead, but thank you. And I will be one day. Or they’ll say, do you know what? With everything [00:15:05] you’ve presented me, is it okay if we just get started with this? Yeah, of course it is. But [00:15:10] if I wasn’t humanising that conversation and I just left that person to go away, we’d [00:15:15] be playing a game of back and forth tennis, radio silence.

Prav Solanki: They wanted to ask me [00:15:20] something, but they thought, am I going to offend Prav by asking this question? Well, not really, because if [00:15:25] I open up and humanise it, that won’t be the case. And this is what you should be doing with your patients. My [00:15:30] next tip, and my final tip for today is this if [00:15:35] you are writing fairly substantial treatment plans and you [00:15:40] think that actually this patient does need a lot of time to think about it. And [00:15:45] it’s fairly extensive restorative work or cosmetic work. I would like to [00:15:50] hope that the vast majority of you a treatment planning in some hygiene, [00:15:55] and if you have treatment plans from hygiene in and you have sold [00:16:00] the benefits of that hygiene for overall gorm mouth oral health [00:16:05] and itemise that out for the patient as part of the bigger plan, [00:16:10] then no patient should really be going away without scheduling [00:16:15] that hygiene appointment and that works really well. So what I would normally say [00:16:20] to the patient is this. So Prav, I know I’ve presented you with this [00:16:25] plan and you’ve mentioned, you know, maybe you’re going to need some time to think about it. And let’s say we’ve gone through [00:16:30] that whole piece and had the dance. I’d say Prav. But are we in agreement that no [00:16:35] matter what happens, whether you go ahead with all of this cosmetic work or this restorative work or whatever I’ve [00:16:40] presented, and it’s quite a substantial investment for you, and I understand that.

Prav Solanki: Are we in agreement [00:16:45] that no matter what happens, we definitely need to sort your oral health out the hygiene, [00:16:50] get your teeth super cleaned and get your gum get get your gum inflammation under control or whatever that [00:16:55] is, right? Yes, I am Prav. So let’s do this. Let’s [00:17:00] get your hygiene appointment booked in with Becky. She’ll do a super job on your teeth [00:17:05] and get them nice and healthy and nice and clean. If we get that appointment booked in today, that [00:17:10] gives you plenty of time to think about. And the next time you’re in with the hygienist, you can come and ask [00:17:15] more questions. And so if you get that patient committing to just a small hygiene [00:17:20] appointment, they make a financial commitment to that. They book that appointment, [00:17:25] they come in, they experience dentistry in your practice. [00:17:30] They experience your people, they experience the environment and [00:17:35] they experience what you’re all about. The likelihood of that patient [00:17:40] then going ahead with your larger treatment plan increases substantially [00:17:45] because they have made a micro commitment to you and [00:17:50] your dental professionals that you are surrounded by. And that’s about [00:17:55] all I’ve got to speak about today. So that’s all, folks. Um, if you do get anything [00:18:00] out of this, or you implement or execute any of this, shoot me a message on Instagram [00:18:05] and let me know what you’ve done, what impact it’s had. But other than that, I have a wonderful day over [00:18:10] and out.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [00:18:15] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:18:20] Your hosts Payman Langroudi [00:18:25] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. If you [00:18:30] got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay [00:18:35] for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because [00:18:40] I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [00:18:45] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value [00:18:50] out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating. [00:18:55]

Ala: Keyboard warriors. Sms’s misinterpreted. Pick up the phone. Speak to someone. [00:00:05] You have a totally different conversation, right? We all know that.

Ala: And you know, if you get the same when [00:00:10] you’re reading back your clinical record, because when you’ve written it yourself, you actually [00:00:15] hear a lot of the tone. If it’s AI generated, you lose some of what your tone was. So you actually [00:00:20] by only having the AI generated record, you can lose information that you would have otherwise [00:00:25] had if you’d sat down and read and written your notes for yourself. So there is a lot of nuance, and that’s [00:00:30] why for us, it is really important that we get clinical record just how that person wants it, [00:00:35] because there’s a reason that person wants it in exactly that way. That person has used [00:00:40] it in that way for ten years. They can look back at a record from ten years ago, and they can hear how they [00:00:45] felt about that appointment through how they’ve written those words. So yes, AI is amazing [00:00:50] because it does generate records really quickly. And actually I love it for the letters the most because that for [00:00:55] me is been so aspirational and easy to do. It takes 20s um, but [00:01:00] the it is important and that will be working on that with people to get there. We do work [00:01:05] on that already to get their record exactly how they want it to be or as close [00:01:10] as we can, because that is important.

[VOICE]: This [00:01:15] is Dental Leaders, the [00:01:20] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in [00:01:25] dentistry. Your hosts [00:01:30] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: It gives [00:01:35] me great pleasure to introduce and welcome Ayla and Adam to [00:01:40] the Dental Leaders podcast from Dan Dental audio notes. You [00:01:45] guys both came across sort of my radar. [00:01:50] Oh gosh, how long was it? Was it two years ago now or was [00:01:55] it there or thereabouts two years ago? Close to certainly. Yeah. And, um, you know, [00:02:00] we sat down, we spoke about Dan and what was really, really clear to me [00:02:05] more than anything else about your journey and your product [00:02:10] is that it was and still remains a labour of love. [00:02:15] And it’s almost like you guys are on this mission [00:02:20] to change the way patient records are stored, [00:02:25] taken, managed. And all of that works. Right. And it comes with various [00:02:30] questions and upsides and downsides and all the rest of it. And we’ll talk about [00:02:35] your product later. And but guys, what I want to learn about normally I’m [00:02:40] interviewing one person. Right. So I normally say, hey how did you where did you grow up? Tell [00:02:45] us a little bit about your upbringing, your backstory. So with YouTube I want you to [00:02:50] go one at a time. Give me a brief, brief history of sort of your [00:02:55] your backstory career and then how you guys actually [00:03:00] met. And then let’s go into the rest of your rest [00:03:05] of your narrative, guys.

Ala: Well, firstly, it’s such [00:03:10] an honour to be on Dental Leaders, especially with you. Prav. Um, we have [00:03:15] listened since right near the start and then when we hosted you at Gloucestershire Dentist and we [00:03:20] came to, you know, we got to have dinner with you and we got to, um, listen to your whole day’s lecture. [00:03:25] And we understood a little bit more about what you were about. We are really, genuinely honoured to be part of this. [00:03:30] And thank you.

Adam: Oh, don’t be silly. Don’t be silly. It’s an absolute pleasure to have you guys [00:03:35] on. So go.

Prav Solanki: On, you ladies first.

Ala: Um. [00:03:40]

Ala: So my background story is my [00:03:45] grandparents, all four of them were refugees in Second World War. They were taken in cattle trucks [00:03:50] to Siberia and in the work camps. And they survived horrendous things [00:03:55] and things which many hundreds of thousands of Polish people didn’t survive. [00:04:00] They then went on to the men, became part of the British Army. [00:04:05] The girls went on to be either nurses in the army or then got taken [00:04:10] to. If they were too little, then they got taken to. They were all over the world like Kenya [00:04:15] and and Italy fighting. Anyway at the end of the war they [00:04:20] then got demobbed in the UK and the Red cross wrote to my grandma.

Adam: And. [00:04:25]

Ala: Said, um, you know, here’s your men. They’ve been part of the British Army And would [00:04:30] you like to come and be a British citizen? And we feel incredibly lucky [00:04:35] that that happened. So my mum and dad both came from a family [00:04:40] where both of the parents were refugees. Both of the parents have gone through massive things [00:04:45] in the war, and they didn’t have good English skills, and they both came from very, very humble [00:04:50] beginnings. But all the way through there is such a rod of positivity [00:04:55] and optimism and such a hard work ethic. They [00:05:00] worked in factories. My grandma was a seamstress, and then she became a kind of went [00:05:05] with the fashion buyers to London as she got higher up in her role. And my other [00:05:10] grandma sewed buttons onto shirts and sewed.

Adam: Collars.

Ala: And with her mom. So, [00:05:15] you know, like it’s. We went to see my mum’s mom’s house when I was little and the house was narrow [00:05:20] and the car was long. My mum worked incredibly hard and my dad worked incredibly [00:05:25] hard in their careers. They’ve got a real service career and [00:05:30] background. So my mum was a dentist and um, she still is a brilliant [00:05:35] coach and mentor who’s super passionate about dentistry. It oozes out of her [00:05:40] and she’s like, glows with it. Um, and she always has through 40 years. She [00:05:45] worked her absolute socks off and built a beautiful practice [00:05:50] that served the local community for 38 years, and I had the absolute [00:05:55] privilege to work with her for a number of years. And I’ve learned from her, I think I was seven [00:06:00] when I first sat down and mixed the margin up for a friend of hers, which obviously isn’t [00:06:05] legal now, but feels fine at the time somehow. Um, but yeah, I [00:06:10] come from a really long line of dentistry. I think I was six months old [00:06:15] when my mum first went to a course in America, and she won it. It was a big deal. [00:06:20]

Ala: She went to the Pankey Institute and she came back and was just absolutely [00:06:25] inspired to build something beautiful. And she did. So, um, she won lots of awards. She’s [00:06:30] now a judge on some of the awards. She’s coach and mentor. Like I said, she’s worked very closely with deadpan, [00:06:35] who you know well, so she knows the people that you, um, that, you know, through their craft [00:06:40] and, um, yeah, she’s she’s, um, been a bit of a leading light. [00:06:45] Um, a lot of women don’t. But my grandma, her mum is still alive. And despite [00:06:50] all of her challenges, she is still the most optimistic. She still makes. She’s 93. [00:06:55] She still makes dinner for us every week. She still looks after the children. Um, [00:07:00] you know, it’s it’s been incredible. So it’s a big deal to come from [00:07:05] such humble beginnings. It’s a lot of responsibility. You have to make sure you make good decisions in life [00:07:10] and all the way through. You have to keep your nose clean because everybody knows that your mum is the dentist, and you’ve got [00:07:15] to see where she knows things before you’ve even got home.

Prav Solanki: So, so [00:07:20] on, on, on that front was, I take it mum inspired you to [00:07:25] become a dentist yourself, right? Was that your. That was your journey, right? Yeah.

Adam: She’s [00:07:30] massively.

Ala: It would have been really hard to be anything else.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Was was there ever another [00:07:35] career choice for you.

Ala: International relations I considered and journalism I considered. [00:07:40] Um, but actually like seriously did consider. But I love working [00:07:45] in a team. I love working in the local community. I love serving like that. To [00:07:50] me, if I’m helping people, I’m yeah, I love helping people. And that’s kind [00:07:55] of. Yeah. And I like doing that. Not with life and death. You know, my brother’s doctor, [00:08:00] he’s had to deal with a lot of life and death. I like just dealing with teeth like that is the manageable size of. [00:08:05]

Adam: Responsibility for.

Ala: Me. Um, but I think that’s probably where we have a similar why [00:08:10] isn’t it that service that helping people? That’s probably where Adam had a [00:08:15] similar kind of background as like different places coming from.

Prav Solanki: So where did you go to [00:08:20] dental school?

Ala: I went to.

Adam: Cardiff.

Ala: Um, and that’s where I met that one. [00:08:25]

Adam: Okay.

Prav Solanki: So that’s where it all started.

Adam: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: So [00:08:30] you met at university and were you on the same year? Was it freshers week? What? [00:08:35] How did you guys come together?

Adam: Well, yeah. So it was.

Ala: My boy toy.

Adam: Is [00:08:40] nine months.

Ala: And one day younger than me, so. Yeah, I wouldn’t have known if [00:08:45] we were at dental school.

Adam: Yeah, for actually doing a different course. Otherwise no dentist would be seen dead with probably [00:08:50] two years below at uni. Well. But no, it’s uh, it’s the Wentworth [00:08:55] Club, actually. So all the windsurfers out there? Yes. Yeah. [00:09:00] So that’s where we first met.

Ala: And I first thought, [00:09:05] Adam, I decided my fault I was going to join the Winx Club. I first saw Adam in this great big gang [00:09:10] of colourful people outside the back of the union on a Wednesday night.

Adam: When all.

Ala: The Wednesday afternoon, when all the clubs [00:09:15] happened and I was driving along in my car, I was trying to look for my group and I was like, nope, they’re not my group. They’re not my [00:09:20] group, they’re not my group. Oh, look at all those colourful people. I like that group. That’s my group. And then, [00:09:25] yeah, Adam had long blonde dreads with beads in and really shook his head.

Adam: Out [00:09:30] on the floor. And you could hear it like, yeah, it.

Ala: Was, um. Yeah. Different styles now. [00:09:35]

Adam: Didn’t start. Yeah. Different style.

Ala: Yeah. I, um, I got put [00:09:40] in a car following him and his little blonde dreadlocks flopping out of the window, and I’ve been [00:09:45] following him ever since.

Adam: Ever since.

Prav Solanki: Amazing. And [00:09:50] what was that in the. In the first year of uni. Second year. At what point were you?

Adam: Fourth year.

Prav Solanki: Fourth [00:09:55] year. Right. Okay. Yeah. And what were you what were you studying at the time? Adam?

Adam: Engineering. [00:10:00] So I did mechanical engineering as a bachelors and then I did [00:10:05] an MSC Sustainable Energy and Environment, which was still very much engineering based as [00:10:10] well. Yeah, and then an MBA. Oh yeah. Right. Yeah. [00:10:15]

Ala: I was asked to be unmarried because I’m not sure I’d have stopped it through that otherwise.

Prav Solanki: And [00:10:20] so. So, Adam, take me through your story. Where did you grow up? Tell us a little bit about your upbringing. [00:10:25]

Adam: Yeah. I grew up in a lovely little village on the edge of the New Forest, which [00:10:30] is basically between Southampton and Bournemouth. So on that side there, uh, [00:10:35] it’s a wonderful place to be. Lots of outside play, biking, football, whatever [00:10:40] it was, it was really, really joyous place to to be. Mum, [00:10:45] uh, before she had me was, um, a chemistry researcher. [00:10:50] So she had a PhD and was working out of Southampton, and then she had three [00:10:55] boys over the course of seven years, and after that she became a teacher, [00:11:00] and first was science and then um, and then was just teaching chemistry and, [00:11:05] uh, continued. Yeah. Being a teacher till, till she retired, which meant that it was [00:11:10] really great because you always had mum around when you weren’t at school. We were very close, very close [00:11:15] relationship with mum. Dad did all sorts of different jobs and throughout [00:11:20] my teenage years he ended up working a lot of nights and things. So we were very much most [00:11:25] of the time it was being here with mum and and then we’d have adventures with [00:11:30] dad and it was possible. So yeah, it was our my world.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. [00:11:35] And I guess, um, both of you had I guess had experience of, um, [00:11:40] seeing parents graft. Right. Adam, whether it was your dad who maybe wasn’t [00:11:45] there because he was working or whatever, and then Ali [00:11:50] or your, your mum inspiring you to working hard in the dental practice and whatnot, [00:11:55] that you’ve both sort of experienced that and seen that first hand.

Ala: Yeah [00:12:00] for sure, for sure. And then. Yeah. And my dad as well, you know, he did an MBA [00:12:05] when I was little and he was, you know, had a huge career helping people learn difficulties [00:12:10] in his own right. And it is it is hard graph that you’re seeing. And it is [00:12:15] initially when you’re a teenager, you’re like, oh, I definitely don’t want to do that. Like I’m not gonna hard graph that much. [00:12:20] Um, but then actually it’s just part of who you are and there’s not very much you can do about [00:12:25] it. It’s just who you are. So. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: And so did you end [00:12:30] up working in your mum’s dental practice post qualification? And do you still [00:12:35] work there?

Ala: Um, I know I work with them. Richard Colbourne now.

Adam: Richard. Yeah. [00:12:40]

Ala: Who you’ve met, he’s a he’s a superb person. Um, now I’m [00:12:45] very lucky, um, to. But I worked with my mum for a long time. She did say you can go and practice on somebody [00:12:50] else’s patients when I first qualified. So I wasn’t there to begin with. I went through a whole year of having [00:12:55] to show her my cases and go on a couple of courses that she’d recommended before I was allowed [00:13:00] to come and work, because it’s all family, friends, you know, by the time you’ve been somewhere for 30 years, you [00:13:05] really know those people. You know, we’re talking about, um, listening to your podcast, Prav with the [00:13:10] Four Seasons guy, and that was incredible. Like, yeah, he was great. [00:13:15] We really resonated with that, with that kindness, with the service. [00:13:20] And you know, that’s what my mum’s achieved over 30 years. And you know, even now [00:13:25] I meet somebody I know they’re from Australia to be like, oh, you know I used to work there at oh Mrs. Ross [00:13:30] how is she. Oh send her my love. You know, it’s like right from the heart [00:13:35] and and it’s it’s, um. Yeah, I, I’ve been very lucky to work in that sort of environment, [00:13:40] in that sort of environment.

Prav Solanki: Amazing. Um, and so at [00:13:45] what point did you guys decide that, hey, we’re going to work together. [00:13:50] Right. So, Adam, you you did your engineering bit. Where did your career [00:13:55] lead you, Ali? You went down the traditional dentist route, got your qualification [00:14:00] practised on someone else’s patients before mum let you through the door and then [00:14:05] made your way through to, you know, Richard’s practice and you’ve got, you know, you’ve got an excellent facility [00:14:10] there. Adam, what was your what was your path after shaking all the sand out your [00:14:15] dreads? Um, what happened next for interviews? [00:14:20]

Adam: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So, um, so I worked for, um, [00:14:25] a few engineering companies, uh, some very big FTSE 100. Others were [00:14:30] more private equity owned and I was always in the field of industrial process [00:14:35] control and automation and its data monitoring. So [00:14:40] and I was then in the world of product management, which meant that I would have a suite of products that the company made [00:14:45] or was going to make or was going to retire. And your role is like, you are [00:14:50] you’re the father of these, these, these projects, these products that you’re looking after, those [00:14:55] in the marketplace. And so we would be doing a lot of connecting industrial equipment to the internet, [00:15:00] getting information out. So the experts who knew about this particular thermal system would [00:15:05] be able to advise how to be more sustainable, more efficient, and basically be more [00:15:10] efficient in the industrial space. And so that was a whole mix of electronics, [00:15:15] mechanical software, data. And so I was always in that, that crossover basically between [00:15:20] the real world and sort of the virtual, uh, virtual data world. But you’re [00:15:25] just a problem solver, you know, as an engineer, you and you’re rarely solving your own problems. You [00:15:30] work for a company that does something much, much bigger than you can usually do. And, um, [00:15:35] and, uh, you know, you just get exposed to lots of different technologies and your role [00:15:40] is to generally work out, given a problem, what’s the best technology [00:15:45] to apply to that to solve, to get whatever the output is?

Prav Solanki: So interestingly, this this [00:15:50] just sort of ties in with a current conversation I’m having with my daughter at the moment. Right? So [00:15:55] she’s doing an internship at the moment at a company called Jacobs, and they’re [00:16:00] sort of environmental planning company, whatever. And she knows what I do, [00:16:05] which is solving problems as well. Right? But the beauty of what I do [00:16:10] is I have the ability to identify the problem and [00:16:15] see that problem right through to fruition, solution [00:16:20] and success at the other end. And I’m involved in the end to end journey. Right. And she said, Jacobs, [00:16:25] she goes, you know, one of the things I’ve realised, it’s my dream job, the company, what [00:16:30] it stands for and everything. But she goes, I’m doing this tiny little report, which is part [00:16:35] of a much, much bigger thing. And this tiny little report. Yes, it might have some impact, [00:16:40] but there’s lots of other steps and bigger steps, and I never actually get to see [00:16:45] what the impact of that report is. I just play with spreadsheets [00:16:50] and do these numbers. And, you know, even though it’s, um, her [00:16:55] internship at the moment, she, she, she had that moment of [00:17:00] realisation that she’s not getting a full sense of fulfilment of [00:17:05] delivery. Right. Seeing that problem through end to end. [00:17:10] And we just had a conversation in the car about, well, is that really what she [00:17:15] wants to do? And that might be what she wants to do. Just solving micro problems to be part of [00:17:20] the bigger solution. Or does she want to do something similar to to to what [00:17:25] I’m doing? Not necessarily what I’m doing, but but being part of the end to end journey [00:17:30] of that problem you’re solving. And Adam, in that respect, what [00:17:35] role were you playing in these engineering companies and in these roles? Were there some elements [00:17:40] where you just felt like you were a very, very tiny part of that, or were you involved [00:17:45] in end to end and the bigger piece at a higher level?

Adam: So my specific role [00:17:50] within the organisations was product management, which means that you are very much in the centre of [00:17:55] all the different aspects of the company. So you had to go and meet customers. And [00:18:00] when you spoke with customers who job was never to sell, you just wanted to ask questions [00:18:05] and understand the customer learn, you know what they were trying to do. So you go to some factory [00:18:10] and you speak to the maintenance guy who’s running around like he’s just got ten minutes for [00:18:15] you because he just had to fix something because the production lines or whatever, and you just wanted to listen to [00:18:20] be like, well, tell me about that. And it’s getting them talking to you and understanding that. And so that you had to [00:18:25] understand your customers and all their nuances, what they’re trying to achieve. [00:18:30] And then you come to the engineering team and some of them would be mechanical electronic software, [00:18:35] and you’d be working with them to basically convert sort of the real world [00:18:40] into a set of requirements, for example. And then you’d be working closely with them throughout development [00:18:45] because you’d be sort of the steering lead. And it was my responsibility [00:18:50] to basically prioritise what we did and when, because everyone’s got a limited resource. [00:18:55]

Adam: But then you’re also engaging up with with the business and then the sales team on the more commercial side [00:19:00] and trying to help advise them how they can take this to market so that from that perspective, [00:19:05] product management is a wonderful job to be in because you’re all sorts. And if you’re going in an engineering [00:19:10] world down a more technical route, then you’re going to end up very deep and very narrow, um, which can [00:19:15] be fascinating. But you’ve kind of got to make sure that you’re choosing a niche that has [00:19:20] a long longevity to it. Um, but you are always in that world. [00:19:25] There’s so many things that need to come together to make the world modern [00:19:30] so well run, you know, like it’s it’s unbelievable. Everyone’s specialist. [00:19:35] I can think of some example about no individual could make the basic pencil. And you think [00:19:40] of all the process that it takes to get to that with this little thing. [00:19:45] And, um, there’s an appreciation of being part of something big, but it’s, it’s it helps [00:19:50] to know that you are able to make an impact. It also puts a lot of pressure on you and a lot of responsibility. [00:19:55] Yeah, I think we’ve enjoyed.

Ala: About about, um, running down [00:20:00] as you have enjoyed being able to see it through. Right back 15 years [00:20:05] ago, Adam and I had a conversation about him wanting to see a product all the way through and to see [00:20:10] it from beginning to end. And yeah, that’s that’s been what you’ve achieved [00:20:15] this time. Yeah. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: So. So when, when was, um, your first [00:20:20] baby born then when did when what.

Ala: 2017. [00:20:25] We had a boy and then 29. [00:20:30] 2020 beginning of 2020, we had a little girl and then, [00:20:35] uh, end of 2019, we had Dental alternate. So it was our third [00:20:40] baby became a third baby. For the second baby.

Adam: So [00:20:45] the embarking on the project itself was then. But we looked at this as a problem [00:20:50] like almost a decade before that.

Ala: Right.

Adam: Well, yeah. Well, [00:20:55] it’s there’s always been.

Ala: This thing I am. The problem, basically, is what’s happened the whole time [00:21:00] I didn’t bring with me as a dentist. I am the problem. I stay late writing my notes, and eventually I was just like, [00:21:05] surely we can fix this for you? Yeah.

Adam: I [00:21:10] mean, at the beginning it was just here that you can surely audio record this, but this was [00:21:15] before cloud was a thing and and it was like, well, here’s some software, here’s a microphone. [00:21:20] And, and then you sort of start to understand the challenges of handling all these audio [00:21:25] files and how are they actually kept completely private, yet you know [00:21:30] who they are and then secure. And here you are doing this on your laptop. Okay. So you start to uncover some of the [00:21:35] the challenges there. And again, that was even before GDPR. And then we looked at again [00:21:40] a little bit later, um, as sort of just a concept, just how can we help other. [00:21:45] And then when this opportunity came up at the end of 19, it’s like, okay, we can solve this properly. There are lots [00:21:50] of sort of regulatory and, and sort of important baseline [00:21:55] challenges that need to be fixed just to allow people to even make an audio recording. And then everything [00:22:00] from there is I mean, that’s that’s the gateway to all of the modern technology. Now, is that [00:22:05] that audio, you know.

Ala: We worked with some really great minds when we were at that stage, like thinking, okay, [00:22:10] let’s do this. So jumped in and was one of the guys who were the head educators for, um, uh, [00:22:15] Dental Protection Society. And he said that, um, you know, I remember being at one of his things [00:22:20] about ten years ago, being like, can’t you just audio record this? And he’s like, yeah, but you’ve got to make [00:22:25] sure it’s, you know, available to the right person at the right time. You’ve got to make sure that it is stored properly. And, you [00:22:30] know, these were the regulations that GDC regulations, the CG dent regulations or FTP as they were at the time, [00:22:35] you know, and you’ve got to make sure that you do all of that properly and it’s got to be in the patient’s [00:22:40] interest. That was their that was their major thing. Like, this has got to be for the patient in [00:22:45] the patient’s interest. Yes, it can be helpful to you, but it needs to have [00:22:50] that to be real and to be proper and to be ethical. So yeah basically [00:22:55] we just properly looked at okay, what do you need to jump through. Is this [00:23:00] possible to jump through. What will it take. And shall we do it. And that was yeah that was [00:23:05] it.

Prav Solanki: So the first problem was I was spending too much time at work. Sounds [00:23:10] like me. Yeah. Adam was like, when is my wife coming home? [00:23:15] Yeah. When is my wife coming home? Your dinner’s cold. Yeah. [00:23:20] Um, I’m gonna fix this problem using engineering, and [00:23:25] we’re gonna. We’re gonna create a piece of software that’s going to audio record [00:23:30] your notes, so you don’t have to stay behind. Take your notes, [00:23:35] and you guys can have some quality time. Um.

Adam: Yeah.

Ala: Do you know, it [00:23:40] came at the same time as mastery was happening for me, though, you know, and you’ve been out of dental school for a little while [00:23:45] and you start to be like, okay, cool, I’ve got the basics now. I want to get it really good. So you [00:23:50] go through the thing of your master, your check-up, you master your composites, you master [00:23:55] your crown preps you. You start adding a couple of strings to your bow, you start adding [00:24:00] sedation and you start, you know, doing all those things. And your record keeping was like a thorn in my [00:24:05] side. It’s like, I want to do this really well. And, you know, I was so lucky. I worked with amazing nurses, [00:24:10] some really good at it, so it was fine most of the time. And then one day I’d have somebody [00:24:15] else and it, you know, it would all fall apart and you’d be like, oh, I had it really good and it’s just falling apart. [00:24:20] So yeah, I think this was we wanted to I was going through the course courses [00:24:25] at the same time, and we thought about systems and systems being implemented well, so that then there, [00:24:30] you know, that happens to every patient every time. And that was one of the major [00:24:35] things that we wanted to achieve was the system for that.

Prav Solanki: So how did this idea [00:24:40] come? Like, you must have sat sat over the dinner one day and said, [00:24:45] do you know what this thing that we’ve been talking about for ten years, I’m going to sit on my computer [00:24:50] and start writing some code and make this tangible. Right? There must have been that [00:24:55] pivotal moment, right? Do you remember that?

Ala: Yeah.

Adam: There was [00:25:00] a there was a holiday we had before kids. So it was sort of a disco, um, just travelling [00:25:05] around in the van and yeah, all of those, all of the journeys, we were just like, let’s actually [00:25:10] just go through this and you start sketching out and and really starting to [00:25:15] I mean, that’s, you know, that’s kind of what I did in my professional life anyway, just in a different setting. So [00:25:20] like this really just flush out all the requirements that this will need to do and pencil sketches [00:25:25] what it could look like. But that’s really just trying to work out all the functionality that you’re going to need. Um, [00:25:30] and uh, yeah, that was that was an early start.

Ala: And have you must note from like working with [00:25:35] people that you love working with when you really respect and admire that person and you get to work [00:25:40] with them and that is fun. It is like we’re like, oh, let’s listen to you. Let’s listen to a [00:25:45] viable product. Let’s listen to like, let’s listen to, yeah, build something together. Um, [00:25:50] and that’s so instinctive to, you know, when you have people who, who enjoy using their brains, [00:25:55] but working together is actually really joyful, like, let’s do this, let’s sit on the beach and instead of talking [00:26:00] about, like, whatever, whatever, let’s talk about, okay, how would we actually make it work like that? How would it how it’s really [00:26:05] so.

Prav Solanki: It’s really cool, right? It’s really good. So from the outside looking [00:26:10] in, right, as I mentioned right at the beginning, yeah. It seemed to me that when I [00:26:15] met you both, right, you were so goddamn giddy about Dental audio [00:26:20] notes, it was just insane, right? Like the passion is just there. [00:26:25] Um, and and it’s so clear to me that you’re both in [00:26:30] as well as being in love with each other. In love with Dan, right. This Dental [00:26:35] audio notes. Um, and and and, you know, I know Adam’s the [00:26:40] guy sat there writing the software and coding it and having these late nights [00:26:45] and burning the candle and whatnot. But I’m sure when you look at your product at the end of it and think, yeah, I created [00:26:50] that, do you know what I mean? We did this together. Um, and then having the impact [00:26:55] on hundreds of clinicians right at the same time. And [00:27:00] God knows how many patients. Right. Must be quite, you [00:27:05] know, must be quite a feeling to.

Ala: We had a bit of a magical moment [00:27:10] about that the other day when you were sitting with people who are wise people, [00:27:15] um, in big indemnity organisations and when their top [00:27:20] leadership team turned around and said, we really like what you’ve made, it’s [00:27:25] the best we’ve seen. Like that moment was one of those moments where you’re like, that [00:27:30] is actually joyful. And as an has a little smile that steals across his face [00:27:35] and he doesn’t want it to, and he’s just feeling a little bit proud, like, yes, we did that, I made [00:27:40] that. And you know, these people who are wise in their professions and [00:27:45] who we respect. And but then to see it is. Yeah, that’s really truthful. [00:27:50]

Adam: Yeah, yeah. And this is um, showing now what we do because the audio is the start. [00:27:55] We transcribe that and then once you’ve got an accurate transcription, then [00:28:00] that’s where the magic opens up. Now with current technologies into the AI and generative [00:28:05] world, where we can now generate the whole written record, patient letters and summaries, [00:28:10] all from that transcription. But again, all of that is backed up by [00:28:15] the real truth, the ground truth, the audio. And it’s all about those foundations. [00:28:20] And having put that hard work in at that base level to now, at this point when we’re [00:28:25] able to really like, say, patient saved clinicians loads of time and make the whole [00:28:30] workflow so much more effortless, That’s built on top of this is the [00:28:35] best record you can have from the audio side, from your defensive side. [00:28:40] It’s the actual real, real, real truth of what’s there. Do you know what.

Ala: The records are [00:28:45] there? You want them concise and precise. You want them achievable. [00:28:50] You don’t want to have reams and reams of text, because actually you’re using those every day to look back and see what happened. [00:28:55] Quickly, quickly, quickly. Quickly. But actually, the whole point of the written record is to [00:29:00] give you credit for the hard work you’ve done, is to try to get [00:29:05] people, get you to understand what happened, where the patient is in the journey. But then if anything happens, [00:29:10] you want to understand what happened. So it’s a little bit like having [00:29:15] somebody who remembers can put you back in that moment of ten years ago, when you spoke to [00:29:20] Mrs. Jones on a cold and wet Tuesday afternoon about her implants. You know, you want to understand [00:29:25] if Mrs. Jones is saying you never told me about implants, you want to listen back and understand what actually happened [00:29:30] so that you can help her. And either way, it doesn’t matter if you said it or if you didn’t say it, you’re [00:29:35] still going to come to her with that same. Mrs. Jones. I’m really sorry that you feel that way. [00:29:40] If you said it, you can be like, here’s a snippet of our conversation from eight years ago when we did [00:29:45] speak about implants. I’m sorry you didn’t remember that. And you know, in hindsight, maybe we can revisit it more, but [00:29:50] how can I help you feel more comfortable about where you are in this, of this particular point in time, [00:29:55] or if you feel like you didn’t say it well enough or, you know, the the always [00:30:00] the danger is the current requirements get overlaid onto what were the requirements [00:30:05] eight years ago? Who remembers what was the right requirements eight years ago? Things change.

Ala: Right? [00:30:10] Things change. Yeah. So. But if you didn’t say it, you could say like, Mrs. Jones, I’m so sorry [00:30:15] that you feel that way. You know, looking back and thinking back on the visits, in hindsight, I wish I [00:30:20] had explained it differently. How can I help you to feel more comfortable about the situation you’re in now? [00:30:25] And you know when you’re coming back and you hear it, you [00:30:30] hear yourself differently. You hear the patient and you can understand [00:30:35] it’s a clinical situation on the table in front of you, and you’re not coming at it with all your emotions [00:30:40] of how you felt in that moment, but you are coming at it with a bit of hindsight, with a [00:30:45] bit of overview, with a little bit of wisdom behind you. And you can leverage the wisdom of wise people to help [00:30:50] you to make better decisions on how to move forward.

Ala: So actually, if you do have a complaint, it [00:30:55] doesn’t matter how many notes you generate like you can the AI generated notes. I mean, it is exciting [00:31:00] watching your notes appear in front of your very eyes. Like, that is cool. I’m not going to undersell that because [00:31:05] that is it is amazing. But the reality is that [00:31:10] if anything happens, you need to understand where that person is coming from and to [00:31:15] be able to ask, okay, this is what happened, what do I do? And the indemnity companies [00:31:20] love us because they can help, you know. They can hear that. What happened? They can say, [00:31:25] look, this is probably where the patient’s feeling like this. They can use patient’s own language in their response [00:31:30] to them. They can make it, you know, a much better, clearer local [00:31:35] resolution. And that is worth its weight in gold. And you don’t listen back [00:31:40] to the audio recording day to day. Of course you don’t. But when you need it, when you can search [00:31:45] back. So it’s searchable audio that we provide. So you can search back the word implants and [00:31:50] it searches through it. And it will highlight everywhere that you spoke about implants. So you know, you’re never going to have to listen [00:31:55] back to all of that audio. But when you need it, it is there.

Prav Solanki: I’m just going to go full [00:32:00] circle, guys, because we’re talking about something that we know about. And there are people listening to this [00:32:05] who maybe haven’t quite grasped what dental audio notes is. Right. Right? So what [00:32:10] I’d like you to do is just give me a summary of [00:32:15] what is the patient journey with Dental audience. What do you do? Do you wear a microphone? [00:32:20] What do you say to the patient? Yeah, I want you to talk me through [00:32:25] what the heck this thing is like where, you know, do you press record on [00:32:30] a screen? Like, just walk me through a patient journey? [00:32:35] I imagine a patient has just walked into your practice for their first consultation [00:32:40] about, I don’t know, orthodontic treatment and talk [00:32:45] me through your patient journey and your consultation having done by [00:32:50] your side.

[TRANSITION]: Okay, great.

Ala: So I go [00:32:55] and pick up my patient from the waiting room. I introduced myself, I welcomed the practice, like [00:33:00] bring them in and I let them get settled. And they haven’t heard any of that. Whilst I’ve been doing that, they’ve just [00:33:05] been thinking about walking through. So when they’re sitting down in their surgery, my [00:33:10] nurse presses record. I then sit down in the chair next to them, eye to eye level [00:33:15] and presses.

[TRANSITION]: Record.

Ala: Where.

[TRANSITION]: On.

Prav Solanki: What presses record where on.

[TRANSITION]: What. [00:33:20]

Ala: Okay, so, um, there is a button on Dental on. [00:33:25]

Adam: Uh, Dental audio node sits and runs on the local computer in [00:33:30] the surgery. So, uh, open up Dan and press the record. We have some [00:33:35] integrations as well. So any of the web based practice management systems, we can surface a little record [00:33:40] button in there. And that’ll just open down and start recording straight from your practice management system.

Ala: So [00:33:45] it’s super easy. There is literally a record like a, like a big microphone [00:33:50] button and you press it.

Prav Solanki: Okay, question, question. [00:33:55] Is this a cloud based based platform? I log into a website and I hit record, or is it [00:34:00] a piece of software that’s installed on the computer and [00:34:05] I press record?

Adam: Yeah. So, um, using Dan is a piece of [00:34:10] software installed on the local computer. The data is all stored in the cloud. [00:34:15] So think of it as a little bit like Spotify in that respect. There’s an application running [00:34:20] but the music is up in the cloud. So this is the same with the records. And what that means is that every [00:34:25] record that’s generated basically is automatically tagged with what surgery [00:34:30] and, and obviously practice it was in um, but also then all the the [00:34:35] application on the computer is basically the only place that any of the information can ever be [00:34:40] decrypted. If it was in a web browser, then essentially anyone can access it from anywhere in the world. [00:34:45] But this is where all the sort of security and encryption side goes to make sure the right [00:34:50] people have access to that is through the application. But you don’t need to deal with storage and [00:34:55] records because we handle that encrypted in the cloud.

Prav Solanki: So just from [00:35:00] a software perspective, and I get very geeky about this, guys, because I’m a I’m a SaaS [00:35:05] product owner as well. And so it’s really interesting conversation. Allah, [00:35:10] we’re going to come back to your consultation in a minute. Right. But I’m just going to get a little bit geeky [00:35:15] with it. Adam. Um, and so you’ve got this piece of software where [00:35:20] essentially all the security is there on that computer. Um, and then [00:35:25] you’ve got the cloud, which is essentially data storage, and then you’ve got a separate set of security in [00:35:30] and around that, your servers where that is firewalls, etc., etc.. [00:35:35] You mentioned possibly having something on a web browser and how how [00:35:40] different is that? Like if you were recording on a, let’s say, a web browser, [00:35:45] how does that impact security? And you know what just just popped into my [00:35:50] mind, right. Voice notes on an iPhone. Right? So I press the red button, voice [00:35:55] notes on my iPhone. It’s recording on my phone. And then it [00:36:00] fires it up to iCloud. Right. Which I guess is the equivalent. I’m sure you don’t use an iCloud, but but the equivalent [00:36:05] of the storage. Is that a similar analogy in terms of what’s going on on the computer? You you’ve [00:36:10] got an app or something on the computer that is carrying [00:36:15] out the recording and transcription function, the AI stuff. What’s [00:36:20] going on in the app?

Adam: Yes. So the the app is basically just dealing with collection [00:36:25] of the audio and then locally encrypting that and then sending the encrypted files [00:36:30] up to our servers. And then on playback, it’s doing the opposite. So it [00:36:35] receives the the encrypted files and then locally decrypts them [00:36:40] ready for playback. And so from that side, what that means is that obviously the communication [00:36:45] itself is is within Https. But it means that the the audio file that we hold [00:36:50] is encrypted. So it’s even if someone’s when it comes to security [00:36:55] it’s so many layers and a yeah, like [00:37:00] an onion basically. And um, you basically said that every single layer do the best that [00:37:05] you can so that by design, even if one layer was compromised or this layer was [00:37:10] compromised, everything is always in a narrow scope that the risk of, [00:37:15] of um, I’ve gone I’ve lost my [00:37:20] train of thought and.

[TRANSITION]: As well, you see?

Prav Solanki: Yeah. [00:37:25] No, no, it’s fine, it’s fine. And I look, um, I think the thing is here that [00:37:30] we’re talking about the security, right? And, um, the security benefits [00:37:35] of having an app on a computer versus recording [00:37:40] directly into a web browser. Um, and what what are the what are [00:37:45] the differences in the challenges and the security there?

Ala: You chose to do [00:37:50] that locally because that was the most security by design [00:37:55] way, that we could do that. And we feel very proud of the security level that [00:38:00] we’ve achieved. And, um, like speaking a little bit about beforehand, we [00:38:05] pay a lot of money to drop a penetration test is not only just to prove, [00:38:10] but also our friends know who the best of the best approved ones are, and those are [00:38:15] the people that we use to regularly, test and regularly make sure that it is actually secure. So, [00:38:20] you know, having it locally, um, locally encrypted is just one bit of [00:38:25] a huge design element, which means that we are very [00:38:30] confident that we have good security and we pay a lot of money to make [00:38:35] sure that stays good security long term.

Adam: Yeah, and there’s obviously security and privacy, [00:38:40] but it’s actually also quite integral to just making sure that the practice and the dentist are compliant with [00:38:45] the GDC and and if and content regulations, which [00:38:50] is like security and privacy is all obviously part of that. But it’s actually now this [00:38:55] is the patient record. Patient records needs to be kept in this way and appropriate. And these [00:39:00] people need to access it. And only those people need to access it. And so, um. [00:39:05]

Ala: The right person at the right time so that that patient has the benefit of all of their data [00:39:10] when they need it. So you can’t be, you know, looking at if you’re going to store it, [00:39:15] you have to store it properly as part of the patient record, we feel. But yeah, you know, [00:39:20] the indemnity organisations tend to have reverse on that. The systems the the practice [00:39:25] management systems tend to agree with us on that. So there is a bit of grey of course. But I [00:39:30] think for people who are in the majority of dentists, they want to know they’re doing the right thing. [00:39:35] They want to know that in the moment they press record, they are compliant and that is what we achieve [00:39:40] for them.

Prav Solanki: So back to your consultation earlier. You’re in the clinic, [00:39:45] You press record? Yeah. Now, tell me, exactly [00:39:50] what do you say to that patient at that point to get consent to record [00:39:55] the consultation. What are the words that you use?

Ala: Perfect. So I say [00:40:00] Prav. Welcome to the practice. My name is Ella. I’ll be your dentist [00:40:05] today. This is Carla. She’ll be your dental nurse. It’s really nice to meet you. What [00:40:10] we normally do at this point is have a really good conversation when we’re sharing lots of information [00:40:15] back and forth. Is it okay if I take an audio recording at the same time? It means that I [00:40:20] know my records are great. We can leverage the power of AI to write you a summary at the end if [00:40:25] you would like one, and it means I can concentrate my time on you. Is that [00:40:30] all right? And never in the time we’ve we’ve been doing it. Has anybody said no. Now [00:40:35] we we weren’t near GHQ. So we have people who are at the top level of security who [00:40:40] ask me questions. I have had three questions in about the last six years and that is it. [00:40:45] And if anybody ever felt they didn’t want to do it just to record, it’s so easy. If ever you get into a conversation, [00:40:50] into a part of a conversation that you think they may not want this recorded, just press stop. [00:40:55]

Ala: And then when it starts up again, you can just press go again. You know we’re set so that [00:41:00] however many times you press stop and go, that is part of that conversation. So you can [00:41:05] get the credit for the bits that you want credit for. You don’t have to have the whole thing recorded. If you don’t [00:41:10] want your personal bits recorded, just press stop. At that point, you know, it’s this is here to [00:41:15] give you credit for that. So, um, basically at that point when patient says yes, you tick the big [00:41:20] consent button to confirm that you’ve got consent and you’ve now got it in the transcript, and you’ve now got it [00:41:25] in the audio that that person can send it. You’ve got their voice saying it. Sometimes they’ll nod and I’ll say, can you just [00:41:30] say it out loud? And there is a little but you know, but um, but that’s yeah, that’s fine. And [00:41:35] because the first time you do it, sure you’re going to feel on show and you’ll be. But what [00:41:40] will happen is you’ll pull your.

[TRANSITION]: Socks.

Ala: Up. What will happen is you’ll look at that patient better. [00:41:45] You’ll communicate with that patient better. You will help them to understand better. [00:41:50] Because actually you’re aware that actually this communication is important. And I want to get [00:41:55] it right, and it actually makes you better. And we’re talking about wisdom before. And Kevin [00:42:00] Lewis sent us a little thing about it that was actually hit the nail on the [00:42:05] head. And it was um, it’s rung true the whole way through. And he said [00:42:10] it has the potential to do wonders for the quality of interpersonal communication between patient and clinician, [00:42:15] and that is arguably a more important dividend than the recall involves. And again, [00:42:20] you know, all the stuff we’ve talked about making connections with people, it allows you to do [00:42:25] that because it not only allows you to do that because you’re not having to think about your records, it makes [00:42:30] you do it because you’re more aware of how you’re communicating. And that is. Yeah, that’s, that’s [00:42:35] that’s the really good stuff. That’s when.

[TRANSITION]: You.

Prav Solanki: When you, when [00:42:40] you know, Dan is listening then, then then you’re on your toes. Right. You’re on best behaviour so [00:42:45] to speak. And um, um, you do things in a different way.

Ala: You are a [00:42:50] little bit, but yeah. Sorry. Um.

Prav Solanki: One of the things that, um, you know, [00:42:55] there’s lots of different tools out there that can record things. And one thing that, [00:43:00] um, sort of has always come to mind is that if you’ve got something recording [00:43:05] and it’s creating AI and it’s doing things, maybe you speak [00:43:10] in such a way that’s just a little bit more thorough than you would have done if you weren’t [00:43:15] dictating your notes, so to speak, so that, you know, you’ve got all boxes ticked and that that [00:43:20] then becomes muscle memory to you. Is that right?

Ala: Yeah, that’s exactly what it’s like. That’s exactly [00:43:25] what it’s like. You’ve absolutely hit the nail on the head and it becomes joyful because it’s like it’s like [00:43:30] you can gamify it a little bit for yourself and be like, yeah, did that yet? Took to that, yet took to that. But you [00:43:35] realise, you know, when you look at the length of the transcript, you remember, you realise how much you actually [00:43:40] interact with that person and how little your notes can actually give you credit [00:43:45] for that because, you know you can’t write all of that down. You know, we thought about copying [00:43:50] the whole transcription process. It’s too much, you know, it’s not usable. And that’s, I think, where [00:43:55] we’ve always come back to, yes, you can overlay AI and that is magical. [00:44:00] And yes, we do that. And yes, you know, I use it all the time. I send letters [00:44:05] out to my patients now because it takes me 10s to do, you know, and that is [00:44:10] and that is so aspirational for me. I’ve always wanted to be one of those dentists that sends letters out to each of their patients, [00:44:15] and I can do it in an email before we’ve even got home, you know.

Ala: So how well looked after? Are they feeling [00:44:20] like it is magical? And my nurse, it doesn’t matter which nurse I have, I have consistently great [00:44:25] records all the time. Yeah. Anyway, um, you’re saying about some makes [00:44:30] you feel a bit more on edge, I think, when you’re first using it, [00:44:35] it makes you pull your socks up. When you’ve been using it for a while, it makes you proud [00:44:40] of what you achieve. But how I feel now is that it’s my safety net. He’s my guy [00:44:45] in the corner who’s got my back. It doesn’t matter if the nurse has popped out to [00:44:50] get the next patient set up, or put some extras through, like I am getting credit for every sentence [00:44:55] that I’m saying. So I put more into my patient. And, you know, those emergency visits where it’s just like there’s [00:45:00] a lot going on and you’re trying to get consent and you’ve got all these different [00:45:05] things to talk about. It means that even when I’m taking the x ray, I [00:45:10] can be still talking. I can still be getting credit for that. It’s still giving me the notes. And that is. Yeah, I enjoy that. [00:45:15] Yeah.

Prav Solanki: So just out of curiosity there, let me [00:45:20] play devil’s advocate and I’m that dentist and I think, do I hell want to record [00:45:25] this? What happens if I say something that I don’t want to [00:45:30] be documented? Do you understand where I’m coming from? Like, yeah, what.

[TRANSITION]: Happens if I slip up and I say.

Prav Solanki: Oh [00:45:35] shit, I’ve just put my just put my foot in it. Right. What’s [00:45:40] your you must come across that, right.

[TRANSITION]: Well, what.

Ala: What we’ve come across before [00:45:45] is I’ve left it on. We now have a view on top, which means it’s [00:45:50] always on top. So you can always see if it’s recording. So that happens a lot less. But we have put a cut tool in so [00:45:55] that you can if you know the next patient’s in and you don’t want to be collecting their data yet [00:46:00] work and stuff, you can cut it. But equally you only record the bits you want to record. So [00:46:05] you want to record the bits that you’re doing. Good communication. So maybe at the beginning of the visit when you [00:46:10] say Mrs. Jones, you know you’re in here today for a really nice, easy filling. I know you [00:46:15] feel anxious about these things sometimes, but please be reassured. You know, this is a genuinely quite an easy one. We’re not even going to have to [00:46:20] use local anaesthetic and just paint it on top, you know, all that kind of thing. So you can just do that bit, or you can say it’s going to be [00:46:25] a bit deep or that kind of stuff, so you do it at the beginning. You can either keep it running, lots of people keep [00:46:30] it running and have it like a black box in the background. Or you can stop at that point and then just [00:46:35] press start again at the end. When you’re doing poster constructions, it is only a tool. It doesn’t have to be on all the time. [00:46:40] And that’s because we do the start and stop. And then it’s as it’s when you’re doing the eye records, [00:46:45] everything that you is in there is taken into the eye. So yeah, it’s a [00:46:50] neat solution that you can use at your whim. So it’s not going to record [00:46:55] stuff that you don’t want it.

Prav Solanki: Okay. Um, Fine. Talk [00:47:00] to me about the AI stuff. So you hit record it, transcribes it, and then [00:47:05] it produces. Does it produce your clinical notes? Does it? You [00:47:10] said it produces a patient letter. How good is that? Is it peppered with errors? [00:47:15] Do you need to adjust it when you adjust it. Are you training the AI [00:47:20] model. And the next question I’m going to ask you, which [00:47:25] just does spring to mind, is do you just plug it into ChatGPT and [00:47:30] take what it spits out through the API? Um, how does it work? [00:47:35]

Adam: Got great questions.

[TRANSITION]: Great question.

Adam: Um, so yeah, so [00:47:40] fundamentally an excellent transcription is what’s the essential bit of information to feed [00:47:45] into any AI and what we took quite a long considered approach [00:47:50] to how we were going to approach making AI available to [00:47:55] dentists through Dan. And because it’s such a rapidly changing field. I mean, [00:48:00] even let’s say, you know, the GP team is really sort of the public announcement to [00:48:05] the world that this technology is here and people can interact with it. And that was 18 months ago. [00:48:10] And in that time, we’re now at the point that we can start [00:48:15] to use AI in the real world for real use cases. And this use case is [00:48:20] absolutely saving heaps of time for dentists, making sure that their written record is [00:48:25] is excellent, and it can all be done in a click of a button. So fundamentally we’re we’re able to [00:48:30] create the clinical record. We also to create letters. But we also are [00:48:35] in a position that you can use the AI yourself by in [00:48:40] um, with custom instructions to basically shape whatever you want to do as a dentist, because we [00:48:45] felt that we couldn’t come to this problem or this field opinionated [00:48:50] in how you as a dentist need to input or output your information [00:48:55] like every dentist has their own approach, uh, their own templates or whatever.

Ala: So [00:49:00] carefully consider templates they’ve developed over the years like they it is important exactly [00:49:05] how your record comes out. And, um, the bit that Adam was talking about. So the first [00:49:10] time you use it, you literally you have a mic on and you ask the patient for consent, you just [00:49:15] record the record and then at the end you press. So for example, if it’s an exam, you press [00:49:20] examination and you press run and you see your examination appear in front of your very eyes, and that is magical. And [00:49:25] I think that is something that every dentist should experience for themselves once in their life, because [00:49:30] it’s leveraging all of the wow of AI for something that you are really passionate [00:49:35] about and something that you use every single day. And, and you know, that is a magical, joyous [00:49:40] moment. And I, I genuinely, you know, I want it for the dentists who don’t enjoy typing. [00:49:45] I want it for the dentist that can be doing their records the same all the way through their lives. I want it for the brand new dentists that you know. [00:49:50] I just have so much on their plates. They don’t need anything new. I want everybody to be able to see that happening once. [00:49:55] Um.

Prav Solanki: I guess look, I’ve got some fundamental questions here, and [00:50:00] you’re more than welcome to tell me to go take a run and jump when I ask me to ask you these questions, because there may [00:50:05] be trade secrets, right? But one of them is how do you get accurate transcription? [00:50:10] Are you utilising some kind of Amazon based sort [00:50:15] of tools that does this really well? And then secondly, are you just throwing this [00:50:20] into ChatGPT and training ChatGPT and getting that out? So let’s focus [00:50:25] on those two questions. First of all, how transcription. And then next is [00:50:30] it ChatGPT.

[TRANSITION]: It’s not going.

Ala: To just do that straight away.

[TRANSITION]: Um, [00:50:35] yeah.

Adam: So so transcription speech to text was always in the computer science [00:50:40] world, always going to be an AI problem. And that was really solved by OpenAI with [00:50:45] one of their models, which is called whisper. And that’s a model that they developed so [00:50:50] that they could then go and scrape YouTube to make all the information to go and feed into their, their [00:50:55] models. And that model is excellent. So that model is open source, as in [00:51:00] anyone has free and open access to using that model. And then again from us, from the privacy perspective, [00:51:05] we’ve run that model in our own infrastructure in AWS.

[TRANSITION]: So [00:51:10] Amazon Web.

Adam: Service, Amazon Web Services. Yeah. So we’re not sending [00:51:15] that then even from our servers over the internet to the US, [00:51:20] as obviously at that point it would be a decrypted audio file, but just sent to the [00:51:25] US for them to transcribe and come back again. So we use OpenAI’s [00:51:30] transcription model. We deploy that within our own infrastructure. And then in terms of the [00:51:35] quality output of there. So whenever you notice a mistake in the transcription and you listen [00:51:40] to the audio, you’re like fair play. Like, you know, you are just a computer. You’re [00:51:45] not really familiar with the goal to talking to. And so and he and.

[TRANSITION]: He was a mancunian.

Prav Solanki: There’s [00:51:50] no way there’s no way you’re going to understand the Mancunian. Right. So, um.

[TRANSITION]: You know, [00:51:55] it’s much more about.

Ala: It’s much more about quality of audio effort. Like, [00:52:00] it’s not that it handles accents really well, like, even like.

[TRANSITION]: I’m [00:52:05] telling you. Right? So yeah.

Prav Solanki: I use a piece of software called loom. [00:52:10] Yeah. Um, to record the screen and whatnot. And it does this transcription piece. Right. [00:52:15] God knows whether she’s been whisper or not. But let me tell you something. It thinks I’m Welsh. Yeah. [00:52:20] Um, it takes my Mancunian. Yeah. And definitely doesn’t type out English, so it gets [00:52:25] me wrong.

Adam: Um, yeah.

Prav Solanki: And and me and Jaz Gulati are always joking [00:52:30] about the fact that once loom figures me out, then we know it’s cracked its transcription [00:52:35] problem. Right? Right?

[TRANSITION]: But yeah, let’s.

Ala: See how you do.

[TRANSITION]: With that. That’ll be our next. Yes. Yeah. [00:52:40]

Adam: At a deep, deep Irish accent as well. So there’s always going to be nuances like [00:52:45] that. And so we solve those basically not I. So we’re not in the in the process [00:52:50] of training an AI model. Because that means that any data that we handle, [00:52:55] which is your patient’s personal sensitive information, would be, would be being compromised [00:53:00] in training. So, um, there’s lots of things you can do. Um, uh, so [00:53:05] we do lots of things basically afterwards. So we, for example, just have a dictionary of clinical terms. For [00:53:10] example, a classic is buccal or buccal. And you know, by default the I will [00:53:15] always put out buccal of your shoe. We know about dentistry. Change all of those to buckle. [00:53:20] And there’s lots of examples of that. So that is really [00:53:25] important thing to do. We we uh handle that in Dan. That is not I. [00:53:30] And that means that we know what the output is going to be, because one of the challenges with AI [00:53:35] is it is magical, and it is unbelievable that a computer can do this. And [00:53:40] then we as people are consistently anthropomorphising that trying to turn [00:53:45] it into a person, but it is not deterministic and you put the same information in, you [00:53:50] will get a different information out. The transcription is is quite good at consistent, but when it comes [00:53:55] to other things like the generative stuff, but the same input in twice or three times or however many times [00:54:00] you’ll always get a slightly different output. So there are some things where it’s good and some things where it’s [00:54:05] it’s not the right technology.

[TRANSITION]: Back, back.

Ala: To why it’s relevant. Um, that’s [00:54:10] why if you are using AI for your records, if the indenture [00:54:15] organisations would prefer for you to keep your source information because the [00:54:20] the output is different every time and you know, if you’re using tools, welcome to [00:54:25] use the tools that make that happen. But please understand that it’s they will [00:54:30] never know what really happened. And they you know, what will happen when the dental law partnership [00:54:35] come across an AI generated record? Nobody knows because it hasn’t happened yet. [00:54:40] And we feel that you’ll be in a stronger position, you know, like jazz does. He records all [00:54:45] of the visits and he keeps those recordings, you know, and what the [00:54:50] the challenges are coming with that, because you don’t know where that information came [00:54:55] from that made that AI record. And it’s okay because you can say, you know, I checked it over fine, [00:55:00] but we still don’t know what the dental law partnership will make of that. And, you know, they’re [00:55:05] quite good at playing games and trashing records just because there’s a spelling mistake. That’s the same in two records, you know. [00:55:10] So and we feel that it’s safer and certainly been done to organisations feel it’s safer to have the [00:55:15] source information still.

Prav Solanki: So what so what I’m hearing here is that [00:55:20] you record the consultation and that record that recording [00:55:25] is the that’s the baseline, right? That is the source [00:55:30] of truth. That record. Yeah. Yes I did yeah [00:55:35] that I that’s produced is some models interpretation [00:55:40] of that master record right.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: And so then you get [00:55:45] sued and you say here’s my notes. And the lawyer turns around [00:55:50] and goes, yeah, great. Where did those come from? Because I [00:55:55] don’t know how this has been extrapolated to produce that. Yeah. Have you used some kind of templating [00:56:00] model or engine or have you used something that when you say one buzzword, it spits [00:56:05] out half of your notes.

[TRANSITION]: And.

Prav Solanki: Says, yeah, I said, I said the word perio [00:56:10] and then it gives you all the pocket, this, that or the other and whatnot and spits it out in your notes. [00:56:15] Saves you time. But you didn’t actually say that, right? Um, yeah. So I can [00:56:20] see, you know, I can see how this software has its advantages, where you just say one thing [00:56:25] and it fires all this out. But then, then the downside is that, like you say, this isn’t happened [00:56:30] yet, but it’s only around the corner that when this when this if this came to a case [00:56:35] and they had they had your generative AI produced notes and letter [00:56:40] and all the rest of it, you could still always back it up with the original transcripts, but [00:56:45] more importantly, the actual voice recording between you and patient. Right? [00:56:50]

Ala: And that’s where the kindness comes in. That’s where you hear [00:56:55] how that patient was and why you maybe didn’t push them further and give them more information. Maybe [00:57:00] it wasn’t appropriate at that time to give them more information. You. And that was a really good conversation [00:57:05] with Rajaratnam where he said, you know, that kindness, that context, [00:57:10] that interaction with that person is always lost in a written record, whether you’re generating [00:57:15] it in AI or whether you’re trying to write it down at the time. And all of that soft skill stuff, [00:57:20] which is valued in the GDC guidelines and it’s valued in the, um, CG [00:57:25] Dental guidelines. You know, that that is always lost in any written, um, version. [00:57:30]

[TRANSITION]: Do you know what, guys?

Prav Solanki: It’s just clicked.

[TRANSITION]: It has literally. [00:57:35]

Prav Solanki: Just clicked for me. It has literally just clicked for me. In that moment, I’m [00:57:40] sat here right talking about this audio recording, and I’m thinking about Dictaphones [00:57:45] and all the rest of it and whatnot, and you’re doing this recording and then you’re spitting out this transcript. Now you’ve got [00:57:50] the transcript. The hell do you need this recording for? Right. It’s the it’s [00:57:55] the tone of voice. It’s the language in your words. It’s the kindness. [00:58:00] Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: The kindness.

Prav Solanki: And and I totally dismissed that. Right. And I’ve just realised [00:58:05] that actually if you have, it’s.

[TRANSITION]: Like listening.

Prav Solanki: To a bloody podcast, isn’t it. [00:58:10]

[TRANSITION]: Right. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: It’s like listening to a podcast. You can. You can hear [00:58:15] the banter. You can hear when someone’s serious, when someone’s upset, [00:58:20] when someone’s excited, you know, a bunch of words are just a bunch of this is what people said, [00:58:25] but this is how they said it. And, you know, often we say at home, right? [00:58:30] We say this at home a lot. It’s not what you say, it’s how you [00:58:35] say it.

[TRANSITION]: Yes, you can say the same thing.

Prav Solanki: Two [00:58:40] different words mean two totally different things. Right? And I guess I guess what [00:58:45] you’re alluding to is it’s not just having that master audio note record, [00:58:50] which is a record of the words, but it’s a record of the sentiment, [00:58:55] the emotions, the feelings as you resorted to [00:59:00] Allah. The kindness. Yeah or no? Yeah. Um. [00:59:05] During that, it’s just clicked. It’s just clicked to me.

[TRANSITION]: Right this moment. Just just had that moment. [00:59:10] I actually. Do you know how much that means? Let me see it. [00:59:15]

Ala: I’m really pleased that you get it. I’m really pleased you get it. I get it now. It’s, um. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: It’s [00:59:20] just. Yeah, I’m.

Prav Solanki: Just annoyed that I haven’t got it up until now.

[TRANSITION]: We’re [00:59:25] much better.

Adam: At showing them now. At telling. Yeah. Can you.

[TRANSITION]: Match it? It’s [00:59:30] really easy. We tell people that without having an hour to talk about it first. It’s [00:59:35] really.

Prav Solanki: It’s really easy, guys. It’s really easy. Guys like it. Dental Audio [00:59:40] Notes is your emotive record of the patient consultation? Yeah. Yeah. [00:59:45]

[TRANSITION]: It communicates I. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. It communicates [00:59:50] the emotional intelligence that takes place in you and the words. Isn’t that [00:59:55] right? That’s not that. It’s it’s the it’s capturing the [01:00:00] sentiment and the emotions during a consultation. Not [01:00:05] just words. Yeah. Words without sentiment and emotion [01:00:10] are meaningless. Yeah, it can be worse.

Ala: It can be [01:00:15] worse. If you just read a transcript, it can be worse. It’s like reading a text the wrong way.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah yeah [01:00:20] yeah yeah yeah yeah. I’m so pleased you get it.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, yeah. Keyboard [01:00:25] warriors. Sms’s misinterpreted. Pick up the phone. Speak to someone. [01:00:30] You have a totally different conversation, right? We all know that.

[TRANSITION]: And, you.

Ala: Know, if you get the same when [01:00:35] you’re reading back your clinical record, because when you’ve written it yourself, you actually [01:00:40] hear a lot of the tone. If it’s AI generated, you lose some of what your tone was. So you’re actually [01:00:45] by only having the AI generated record, you can lose information that you would have otherwise [01:00:50] had if you’d sat down and read and written your notes for yourself. So there is a lot of nuance, and that’s [01:00:55] why for us, it is really important that we get clinical record just how that person wants it, [01:01:00] because there’s a reason that person wants it in exactly that way. That person has used [01:01:05] it in that way for ten years. They can look back at the record from ten years ago, and they can hear how they [01:01:10] felt about that appointment through how they’ve written those words. So yes, AI is amazing [01:01:15] because it does generate records really quickly. And actually I love it for the letters the most because that for [01:01:20] me has been so aspirational and easy to do. It takes 20s, but it [01:01:25] is important and that we will be working on that with people to get there. We do work on that already, to get [01:01:30] their record exactly how they want it to be, or as close as we can, because [01:01:35] that is important.

Prav Solanki: So that’s customised per clinician.

[TRANSITION]: Well, [01:01:40] what.

Ala: We do is we because we have that.

[TRANSITION]: Source.

Ala: Of [01:01:45] audio, we can allow people and enable people to have control over the AI prompting, [01:01:50] and that’s really exciting. So you can interact with your records. [01:01:55] So Dan is like your guy who sits in the corner, he remembers everything, and [01:02:00] then you can ask him to do tasks for you so you can be like that guy in the, you know, like a customer, [01:02:05] you know, getting the waiter, go write me some notes, you know, um, get me some. Yeah. [01:02:10] Get me a letter to the patient. Get me, get me this, get me that. Um. Now do it more in bullet [01:02:15] points. Do it. I want more detail here. Do it like this. I want it to look like these [01:02:20] notes. Make it look like these notes. Like it literally. You can. And we’ve given you like, you can leverage [01:02:25] the power of AI for exactly how you want it to be. And because we’ve got that source [01:02:30] data, we can do that. We can let people have open access. You can play we have outbox box, [01:02:35] you know, like buttons you can press. So it’s easy. You don’t have to play with it. But if you want to play with it, you [01:02:40] totally can. And that’s fun.

Prav Solanki: And so you say it’s not [01:02:45] ChatGPT. What is it?

Adam: Yeah. So, uh, or ChatGPT itself is [01:02:50] a product that OpenAI have made of users, their models for people. [01:02:55] Right. And it’s obviously tempting for anyone to, to use it. And I’m sure many people have. [01:03:00] And you can see what’s possible. So we, the whole AI world is going [01:03:05] so quickly. So there’s OpenAI with their GPT models, there’s [01:03:10] anthropic with cloud models, there’s a Google with Gemini models. And whilst [01:03:15] ChatGPT is no by far the most household recognisable name, um, [01:03:20] yeah. All these models are basically consistently leapfrogging each other. So we’re in a position [01:03:25] that we are able to use whatever model is most appropriate for the problem we’re using. [01:03:30] We are able to use OpenAI’s models. And one [01:03:35] of the things that we have in place, there is a zero retention policy with the agreement with OpenAI. [01:03:40] So they do not store any information. It is always transient. So we [01:03:45] are if we are using OpenAI’s services then that is in place there. We’re [01:03:50] also be really clear.

Ala: That means that your patient data will [01:03:55] never live on ChatGPT. Yeah, and it will never be learned [01:04:00] from. So there I think as a patient, I would want to know. [01:04:05] And I feel like my patients have a right to not have their data learned from by an AI [01:04:10] model because their name could come back in some way. You know, People don’t know how it works. People are [01:04:15] looking at it all the time. It just feels wrong. Does that make sense?

Prav Solanki: Is there a consent? You [01:04:20] know? No, I get it, I get it. And I would want to give consent for someone to learn [01:04:25] on my, my stuff. Right. But but having.

[TRANSITION]: Having said that as an option. Yeah. [01:04:30] We’re not having.

Ala: Said we don’t.

[TRANSITION]: Know I get I.

Prav Solanki: Get that but but is there a consent issue [01:04:35] here. Like let’s say you guys said you know what? Screw this. Everyone who uses [01:04:40] Dan is automatically opted in to have us learn [01:04:45] from their patients for the betterment of everyone who’s using Dan’s. Every time it gets used, [01:04:50] it gets smarter and more intelligent and cleverer and [01:04:55] better at doing everything. And you can see you can start seeing that, right. But you guys [01:05:00] have chosen not to do that. Is that.

[TRANSITION]: Due.

Prav Solanki: To is [01:05:05] it a.

[TRANSITION]: Consent thing.

Prav Solanki: Or.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, the.

Adam: Patient should consent to that. If that’s the objective of what you’re [01:05:10] doing, then the patient needs to be able to consent. The challenge with us is being audio. It’s very impossible. [01:05:15] It’s impossible to say that nothing in here is personally identifiable. [01:05:20] It’s different with an x ray. It’s it’s, you know, a sort of a [01:05:25] it’s an image and there’s no name in there, you know, you can easily [01:05:30] remove that. And so from that side they’re completely different structures. But [01:05:35] it’s easier to kind of use for example x rays and keep learning from that when it comes to your [01:05:40] conversation and transcriptions. We don’t know what’s in there. And you can’t assume that it’s [01:05:45] going to. In fact, you.

[TRANSITION]: Must assume.

Ala: That there’s something in there which mustn’t make [01:05:50] it outside of your ecosystem. And that’s why, all right. And that’s.

[TRANSITION]: Why I’ll play devil’s.

Prav Solanki: Advocate with you. [01:05:55] Right. So cool. I’m with you on that. And you say, okay, we’re playing by the rules because [01:06:00] there could be personally identifiable information. I’m not going to let that live with [01:06:05] ChatGPT with a whole bunch of other patients records so that we can all learn [01:06:10] from it. But now let’s say we take the transcript. And we use some kind [01:06:15] of AI model to pull out personally identifiable information. So we [01:06:20] left with a base of information that we can now go and learn off. Wouldn’t [01:06:25] that be okay?

Ala: We don’t need.

[TRANSITION]: To.

Ala: We don’t need to. The AI [01:06:30] is travelling at the fastest pace it possibly can. Like, there is [01:06:35] no way that we could have a massive enough team to make proper use of that data anyway, like it’s [01:06:40] just not who we are. We are like.

Adam: Building and building a model is a very [01:06:45] different exercise to using a model, and where we [01:06:50] are dealing with speech to text and then basically text to notes. That’s [01:06:55] what large language models are great at. The people what make large language models are heavily invested [01:07:00] in by Microsoft Facebook meta. You know it’s it’s yeah. We’re not in the position [01:07:05] to do that. It’s a different story. For example, with the x ray thing, it’s a completely different thing. That is a niche [01:07:10] AI that does a specific thing, identify x rays and and assess them. [01:07:15] And that’s completely different to to words and and summarisation I think.

Ala: It comes down to trust though. Prav. [01:07:20] Yeah, yeah, you need to trust that your people are going to look after your information properly, and they’re not just going [01:07:25] to turn around and do that. And you have to choose your people. You know, you have to choose and you want to you want [01:07:30] to give that information to you because you are giving them your information. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: So [01:07:35] back to my original question. I said, is it ChatGPT? And you kind of said, [01:07:40] well, we can use a bunch of things, right? Like anthropic and a whole bunch of other [01:07:45] things, Gemini and whatnot. Are you telling me that your that Dan has access [01:07:50] to more than one AI platform?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:07:55]

Prav Solanki: And yeah, you say?

[TRANSITION]: Oh, yeah. Like one.

Prav Solanki: Of [01:08:00] course. What are you talking about? Yeah. Prav. Of course. What do you what are you talking about? Right. But [01:08:05] it’s not blindingly obvious to everyone. Right? But maybe it’s maybe.

[TRANSITION]: To you as. [01:08:10]

Prav Solanki: Uh, as the as the developer. But I’m really curious. [01:08:15] Right. How how does it decide? Like, today, I’m going to [01:08:20] use Claude, tomorrow I’m going to use ChatGPT in the next time I’m going to use, like, whatever, [01:08:25] Gemini, this, that and the other. Or are you, are you constantly tweaking that? Like [01:08:30] what.

[TRANSITION]: So yeah.

Adam: So so so it’s always [01:08:35] so at the moment we’re in the point that every six weeks [01:08:40] or so, someone has made a next big advancement in these models, [01:08:45] know what I mean? But they also are trained differently and built differently and [01:08:50] operate differently from each other. So they all have these metrics that they try and outcompete each other with. [01:08:55] You know, there’s a huge data set. We perform this well on this, but they all have their [01:09:00] nuances for which they’re better at and things that they’re worse at. So one of the things with anthropic, [01:09:05] for example, is that we’re able to deploy that completely within our AWS infrastructure. [01:09:10] So if someone, for example, a corporate wanted to adopt [01:09:15] that, we can spin up their whole entire damn system in an isolated network. [01:09:20] It never goes outside of the system. It’s separate to everything else. It’s all air gaps. And everything is then [01:09:25] within essentially their network. So even the models allow different levels of deployment. [01:09:30] And yeah, so we are continuously exploring what is capable [01:09:35] with each of those models. We’ve got good results at the moment with the models that we’re using for the [01:09:40] for the specific tasks that we offer at the moment. But I mean, this is just a start. This is the obvious [01:09:45] killer app, right? Right. My notes for me, it’s the obvious first app. And what [01:09:50] dentists are going to realise they want to do next is is just this [01:09:55] is the start of that. And from that perspective, we have to be open minded in where we are going to go and [01:10:00] be considerate from a technical perspective of how can we keep as many doors open [01:10:05] in the future for us to go through those in different, different directions?

[TRANSITION]: It’s going to go.

Ala: In a [01:10:10] really exciting, you know, it’s fun to watch it now. It’s it’s you know, it saves [01:10:15] me so much time. It makes me a better dentist now. But [01:10:20] the future direction is awesome. But yeah, there’s there’s cool stuff coming [01:10:25] too.

Prav Solanki: Wow, wow. So what does the future hold [01:10:30] for? For down then? You seem excited about cool stuff coming, right? [01:10:35] Are you able to talk about this cool stuff?

Ala: I think the first bit is making it accessible, [01:10:40] available to people really easily so that, you know, not just the early [01:10:45] adopters are using it, but just normal dentists are. And I want them to have the. [01:10:50] I think people are rightfully cautious about adopting new technology that’s, you know, there’s [01:10:55] no rubber stamp from anybody at the moment that any of this is actually okay to use. And that’s what we’re [01:11:00] hoping to bring to the table next is a rubber stamp of like, you know, if you [01:11:05] we’re happy for you to use this product. We feel that this will help you if something happens in your operatory, [01:11:10] or we are happy for you to use this to make you more efficient, because we believe that this is a good company [01:11:15] who treats your data properly and.

[TRANSITION]: Will do it right.

Ala: So that’s our next thing is actually [01:11:20] letting the majority of dentists know that no, if you do it with us, we’ll keep you safe, [01:11:25] we’ll keep you good. And it will, um, potentially really help you if something happens. [01:11:30] And in the meantime, you can have a lot of fun with it. Like, you can just have your notes written for you. That’s fine. [01:11:35] Yeah, I think that’s. And then.

[TRANSITION]: You.

Adam: So step to that is our currently working with lots of integrations [01:11:40] with practice management systems. And this really exciting [01:11:45] speak to those guys because like we’re not trying to take anything away from the practice [01:11:50] management system. That is the heart of the patient record. That is where you should be. So we’re like, [01:11:55] hey, look, we managed to do this. We should give it to you. So help us give you the record. [01:12:00] But then those kinds of collated so much together that it’s this [01:12:05] is like the next first building block for people to start making those next links or work by combining this [01:12:10] with the charting or with this or that. And people’s imaginations can go well [01:12:15] wherever they want. That’s one of the things I think I has done for the world at the moment, [01:12:20] at least the Western world. It’s irrelevant of necessarily what actual use case I have [01:12:25] done. I has totally broken down the stigma of we’ve [01:12:30] always done something this way, why would we change? And people are not. People [01:12:35] have got over that barrier and they’re starting to think, well, what could we do? Partly because [01:12:40] they’ve been told that anything is possible, but that is what we’re really excited about, is [01:12:45] is being able to listen to what people, where they want to take it and basically allowing that to be [01:12:50] to be real. And that’s always going to come from collaboration, because not one company, not one organisation, [01:12:55] whether you are the biggest factors management system or you’re just Dental audio notes. [01:13:00] No one organisation is going to be able to really do [01:13:05] that by themselves. It’s going to take collaboration between people. And so.

[TRANSITION]: We’re really.

Ala: Enjoying that. [01:13:10] Like that’s that’s been some of the best stuff that’s happening at the moment. It’s that industry [01:13:15] collaboration coming together to make like, yeah, to make use of these tools and make [01:13:20] it available to vendors to make it real. Like, yeah, there’s some really great minds on it, like proper [01:13:25] people who are actual geniuses working on it. It’s very cool.

Prav Solanki: And [01:13:30] then, you know, uh, the other thing that I wanted to just touch base [01:13:35] on because it clicked when it clicked for me. Right. Does AI [01:13:40] help with sentiment analysis of the conversation? [01:13:45]

Ala: Really does. It really does. And, um, I think it’s one of [01:13:50] the reasons that I love my AI output. Um, because actually quite often it says like the dentist [01:13:55] was crying throughout the appointment, checking the patient was okay at various points. And, you [01:14:00] know, like, it will it will pick up on that.

[TRANSITION]: You know, have you ah have.

Prav Solanki: You ever tried being [01:14:05] have you ever tried to be a mean patient to see if it will give you a mean output or anything like that? [01:14:10]

[TRANSITION]: We’ve played with it. Have you ever messed with it? You [01:14:15] should give it a go. You should give it a go.

Prav Solanki: Can’t [01:14:20] imagine you being a mean dentist. I just can’t imagine that happening. But maybe you should. [01:14:25] Maybe you should just try it.

[TRANSITION]: I’ll do it with you. Yeah.

Adam: Yeah. [01:14:30] So one of the modes we have. So it’s all about different modes for the prompting. You’ve talked about how it. [01:14:35] Yeah how we generate it. So a lot of it comes down to the prompt design and prompt structure. And we’ve made [01:14:40] that so that from the dentists perspective it’s just a template. And [01:14:45] then the ability to just embellish your template to give better guidance for the AI. [01:14:50] We deal with a lot of the things like the kind of just before it gets processed, [01:14:55] organising things that are kind of that prompt, and then making sure that the and handling the prompt when [01:15:00] it comes out, making sure it’s displayed appropriately, making sure you can use your Dental shorthand [01:15:05] because that’s obviously something that large language models don’t do very well themselves. So there’s lots [01:15:10] of post-processing that we’re able to do. And it’s it’s instant. It’s a computer doing it to [01:15:15] make sure that the output is what you want. And so with three general modes of writing up the clinical record [01:15:20] use, this template is write a letter, which is from the dentist perspective, is just give a vague [01:15:25] outline of how you want it to structure. You want it to sound. But we also are in a position to allow you to have a [01:15:30] custom prompt where the transcription will be included, but you can start to ask questions of [01:15:35] that, and that could be sentiment analysis. It could be, you know, just starting [01:15:40] to get those ideas. And if you do use ChatGPT, I’ll sketch something out like an email and [01:15:45] I’ll be like, how would you improve this? And, and you can start to do that to yourself and your own [01:15:50] float. And I do know people that are users that use use it for training and helping [01:15:55] their associates. So they’re like, I’ve had a conversation. I’ve sold [01:16:00] a high value treatment plan. This is how I spoke about it. [01:16:05] And they can go to their associates and, and, and walk through that journey with them, [01:16:10] um, because they have that there. And it’s really helpful for training and reflection [01:16:15] as well as saving you heaps of time.

[TRANSITION]: You haven’t even.

Ala: Touched on the patient stories of it. [01:16:20] Um, because one of the things that we do is enable listening through the benefit of the patient. So [01:16:25] we have listened links. So you can choose to send the audio to a patient. Now [01:16:30] that’s been amazing because do you do that. Listen. Yeah I do yeah yeah [01:16:35] yeah yeah. So um there’s been it’s not all the time. I tend to [01:16:40] offer it when I can see the person’s maybe worried about their understanding, you know, and they’re [01:16:45] getting into their 70s, 80s. They’re maybe a bit worried about being forgetful. They’ve come on their own, you know, a bit vulnerable. [01:16:50] And you think, do you know what this person might just. And, you know, they say, oh, I’m a bit worried about it. [01:16:55] Say, okay, follow me along as we go. I’ll take an audio recording, I’ll [01:17:00] send it to you or I’ll send it to your daughter in Australia. Or, you know, you can go home, listen to it with [01:17:05] your family. When you’re listening to it properly, you can hear it again, and you can [01:17:10] know that you have all the information you need to make your best decision for you. And that’s why the NHS [01:17:15] is so interested in us. Because for their special care dentistry, that is just golden. You know, you [01:17:20] can leverage the power of that person’s support network to help them make the best decisions for themselves. [01:17:25] And that is. But you don’t have to do any extra work for it. You literally just press send Alteringly you know, you don’t [01:17:30] have to re Re Re you know, because before you’d have to ring them at home and, you know, make [01:17:35] sure they had all the information they needed and then, you know, it’s just not achievable. Whereas like this [01:17:40] way you can do that and you can do it every time and it takes you 30s it’s. Yeah. [01:17:45]

Prav Solanki: So interestingly, they’re right. And I know you’re talking about these special care patients [01:17:50] and the older patients don’t quite get it. There might be forgetful. You think, oh, they’re not.

[TRANSITION]: Going to take this [01:17:55] patients.

Ala: You can’t hear it.

[TRANSITION]: Well, but.

Prav Solanki: I’m thinking it from from another point of view. Right. Because [01:18:00] I’m the sales guy. Right. So, um, I teach people how to sell [01:18:05] more dentistry, right? In, in in a way that’s a very natural, [01:18:10] easy.

[TRANSITION]: To.

Prav Solanki: Communicate and how to articulate themselves better. But what’s the most [01:18:15] common objection or excuse for not proceeding [01:18:20] with a dental treatment plan on the day was what’s the number one excuse you [01:18:25] always get?

Ala: I’ll go home and think about it. I need.

[TRANSITION]: To go home to my.

Ala: Family [01:18:30] to.

[TRANSITION]: Go. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Yes, yes. And that for me [01:18:35] would be amazing. When someone says I need to [01:18:40] go and speak to my chat it through with my husband, my wife, they need to understand it’s an investment we’re making [01:18:45] together, whatever it is, right? We’re spending our family money on, on on my teeth. Right. [01:18:50] All right. I can send you a transcript. Cool. You got the words. But if I [01:18:55] send you the audio recording, you’ve got the sentiment, you’ve got the kindness, you’ve [01:19:00] got the emotion, you’ve got the response, the question. And it’s [01:19:05] the it’s the full picture, right?

Ala: You’ve got that opening up of yourself that [01:19:10] you trust that what you’re saying is good enough, that you are happy for that person to take it out into [01:19:15] the world. So you’re building trust, you’re building your relationship. And then we can tell, [01:19:20] um, how whether it’s being listened to, which parts then listen to and how many times it’s being listened to. [01:19:25] So you get a little bit of feedback coming back to you about that as well. So if you’re then interesting follow up on that. [01:19:30] You can follow up after they’ve listened to you and you can say like, oh, did you have time to listen to that? You know, have you listened [01:19:35] to that with that person? And, you know, we’ve had loads of stories of people, you know, one, one lady being able [01:19:40] to have an extraction without sedation because she went home and [01:19:45] listened to it with her family and another lady who went home and she’s a big philanthropist. [01:19:50] She listened to it with her accountant over a cup of tea to see if they could find £30,000 for all the [01:19:55] philanthropic groups to get her her full mouth implants. You know, there’s all sorts of stories.

[TRANSITION]: That. [01:20:00]

Ala: Way leveraging that. Yeah, but that was Adam’s bit because he was like, [01:20:05] I don’t know about Dental Street. You talk to me. I kind of listened. I kind of don’t listen. And I come home and I’m like, [01:20:10] well, I mean, the dentist next week can’t really remember what it’s for. That’s [01:20:15] the reality for most people.

[TRANSITION]: It’s going to cost a few quid. And [01:20:20] your wife’s the dentist. Yeah, [01:20:25] yeah, but.

Ala: I thought the same thing with my mum, incidentally. It’s quite funny, but. Yeah, it’s, um. [01:20:30] It is, it’s really, it’s really genuinely valuable for patients.

[TRANSITION]: And that.

Ala: Is [01:20:35] I.

[TRANSITION]: That.

Ala: Yeah, it’s a good thing.

Prav Solanki: I see, just because [01:20:40] of the reason that it clicked earlier on during this conversation. I [01:20:45] see the value of it now, even in sales, to be able to send the sentiment [01:20:50] and the emotion to your partner, your parents, your loved ones, [01:20:55] whoever it is, and for you both to sit down and listen to it and for them [01:21:00] to be able to hear the excitement, the fear, whatever it is [01:21:05] in your voices, right? And the genuine, you know, kindness [01:21:10] that comes from the from the clinician. It’s almost like they can have the consultation again, right [01:21:15] at their own pace. I think what’s really interesting is you guys get insight into how [01:21:20] many times it’s been listened to when they listen to.

[TRANSITION]: It.

Prav Solanki: So on and so forth. So your TCO [01:21:25] can pick up the phone and go, oh, I noticed, um, you spent some time sharing the [01:21:30] notes and so on and so forth. Did you have any further questions? Would you like to pop in again, [01:21:35] that sort of thing?

[TRANSITION]: Pretty cool line.

Ala: Prav that you say like, is there any more information [01:21:40] that you that I can give you before for you to make your decision? You know, it’s that kind [01:21:45] of you can utilise all of that. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Really. Absolutely.

Prav Solanki: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah yeah [01:21:50] yeah. Is there is there any more information that you need before you can make a decision on this, [01:21:55] um, treatment? Yeah. Have I missed anything out. Yeah. And that’s [01:22:00] you know what? I learned something from a TCO the other day, and, um, I was in a consultation [01:22:05] with her, and she said to. She said to the patient, so what are we thinking? What [01:22:10] are we thinking? Where’s your head at right now? Right. [01:22:15] And that’s to.

[TRANSITION]: Me. Yeah yeah yeah, yeah.

Prav Solanki: It’s I’m meeting you where you’re [01:22:20] at. Right. And we are thinking this through together. And it’s not like you’re not playing a guessing [01:22:25] game now is like, in your head, you’re probably thinking, shit, this is really expensive. [01:22:30] In my head, I’m thinking, is she going to go ahead with this treatment plan or not? Do you think it’s too.

[TRANSITION]: Expensive. [01:22:35]

Prav Solanki: Or do you think it’s too cheap? But if you say to that patient, what are we thinking, [01:22:40] right? We’re on the same side. And just in that change in sentiment [01:22:45] of language, you can make a big impact on, on on patients opening up at [01:22:50] the end and saying, you know what, it’s a little bit more than I expected, right?

Ala: Yeah. [01:22:55] And I imagine all of those hours that those dentists are giving their patients [01:23:00] with their tcos. And who’s writing those tcos notes for them? Right. How does the [01:23:05] TCO get credit for all of those beautiful lines that they say that help that person to make those decisions? [01:23:10] Like nobody’s doing that? So, but because we can be implemented across the practice, [01:23:15] you can have down in every single, in every single room with everybody using it doesn’t cost you any [01:23:20] more to do that. And it means that your tcos can use it, your hygienists can use it, your front [01:23:25] desk staff can use it if they have a private room, if they want to. You know, it’s it’s it [01:23:30] it’s genuinely for everybody to use for when they’re having those good conversations that they want [01:23:35] to get credit for. Like, I do this really well, actually. I want to get credit for that. I don’t want to rely on like my three lines [01:23:40] that I had time to write at the end before I saw my next patient. I want to I want to, you know. Yeah, I want to [01:23:45] show off.

Prav Solanki: Okay. Um, I’m mindful we’re getting we’re getting towards [01:23:50] the end of the show.

[TRANSITION]: Yes, absolutely.

Prav Solanki: And I’ve got a few more questions [01:23:55] for you, though. And one of them is, is just more of a for those people out there [01:24:00] who want to learn about Dental audio notes, maybe give it a whirl, um, [01:24:05] and try try it out. How can they how can they find you? We’re [01:24:10] going to put the link to your website in the show notes anyway, but how can they just [01:24:15] give Dental audio notes a try and and what’s involved? Do we need to go out and buy [01:24:20] a microphone on Amazon? Is it one of these that you can just clip onto your collar? [01:24:25] Can you use a wireless one? Does it have to be wired and hooked up to be. Well, how how do we get started [01:24:30] with that?

Adam: So getting started with Dan is super easy. Visit our website [01:24:35] Dental audio notes.com and you just drop in your email address and from there it’ll take [01:24:40] you to the system, setting your password. And you’re ready to go download that onto your computer. [01:24:45] And you will need a microphone for your very first go. If you happen [01:24:50] to be in front of your computer and it’s, for example, a laptop, that’ll work fine for you. But the very first [01:24:55] moment for the clinic, we do recommend a wireless microphone that just allows you to put it [01:25:00] on your tunic, and that’s a perfect position for your patient and for you for the voice [01:25:05] to get picked up.

Ala: Just a little side note on that. I find having it on the front of my tunic a bit [01:25:10] invasive, so I took it on the inside. So you just see the little blue light sticking out and the speaker sticking [01:25:15] out, and I find that patients don’t even notice it because you’ve got your loops on anyway, and, you know, lights and all [01:25:20] that kind of stuff. So they’re just expecting it. So it’s not so in-your-face. And the other thing you can do is [01:25:25] if there’s a magnet, you can click it on your you can just hit it on the chair. There’s normally a metal bit on the chair, so if you didn’t [01:25:30] want it on you, you can put it on the chair. Or if you’re in a small room, you could have a wired [01:25:35] one. But um, yeah, we found the wireless ones. Good. If you’re going to do it. And [01:25:40] if you’re really excited about it, then get yourself a rode wireless mic. Um, they’re really [01:25:45] good, and there’s loads of little things that they think about. You know, we hope that [01:25:50] it’s how you feel when you use our software.

Ala: There’s loads of little things that we thought about that just make life easy. [01:25:55] Just make it really good flow and some of the cheaper mics have got in the way of that a little bit. So [01:26:00] if you want to do it, go out and spend £100. Get yourself a mic. This is the way this is [01:26:05] going to be the new standard. This is going to be how people make their records for the future. [01:26:10] So it is an investment that, you know, this is happening. It’s not going [01:26:15] away. And you know how people used to just write like one line in pencil. How [01:26:20] are we doing notes now is going to look like that in another five years time. So of course it is making investment. [01:26:25] Do it. Do it right and you’ll get the best results. And if you get the best transcript [01:26:30] you’ll get lovely results coming out. So yeah, that’s that’s that’s amazing. Um, [01:26:35] you can do it because we don’t take any card details before people [01:26:40] have had a chance to use it. So you can use it. Just use it. It’s yeah, it’s [01:26:45] a no brainer.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. If I was advising you on this, I might have another different [01:26:50] conversation with you about.

[TRANSITION]: How you should approach your business. But let’s.

Prav Solanki: Not go there.

[TRANSITION]: Guys. [01:26:55] It’s a free. It’s a.

Prav Solanki: Free. It’s a free for all guys. Just get stuck in. Doesn’t cost. [01:27:00]

[TRANSITION]: You anything.

Prav Solanki: Um.

[TRANSITION]: Really doesn’t.

Prav Solanki: It’s not a charity. Um, but. [01:27:05]

[TRANSITION]: These guys.

Prav Solanki: Are running a business. Um, but but let’s not even go there.

[TRANSITION]: I believe.

Ala: That you. [01:27:10] We believe that people will really enjoy it. And really, you’re so confident.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:27:15]

Prav Solanki: You’re so confident about your product. People will fall in love with Dan and then put their credit card down afterwards. [01:27:20]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that.

Prav Solanki: I get that and so far [01:27:25] so good. And final question and we ask this to all of our guests. So you know what’s coming up next. [01:27:30] Um, so so, Arlo, we’ll start with you. [01:27:35] Um, it’s your last day on the planet. You’ve got your babies [01:27:40] around you, and you’ve got to leave them with three pieces of wisdom. [01:27:45] What would you say?

Ala: So I would pass down the same [01:27:50] bits of wisdom that came from my family. So my grandma. [01:27:55] Be happy with what you have. My [01:28:00] dad legal, decent, honest and truthful. And [01:28:05] my mum. Fake it till you make it. So I don’t know where she came from.

[TRANSITION]: Legal. [01:28:10]

Prav Solanki: Decent. Honest. Truthful. Fake it till you make [01:28:15] it. Love it, love it.

[TRANSITION]: Marriage.

Prav Solanki: That’s amazing. [01:28:20] That’s amazing. And what about yourself, Adam?

Adam: Um, [01:28:25] well, obviously having a kids as well. You start to think about that a lot. And [01:28:30] I, first of all, make sure you have time to play and enjoy yourself. Like, [01:28:35] that’s really important.

[TRANSITION]: And so.

Adam: Explore, explore and be inquisitive. [01:28:40] So that’s asking questions and pushing boundaries. And um, and [01:28:45] hopefully that’s linked to play. Then you’ll just really enjoy things and finding new new ground. [01:28:50] Um, and then the third is to listen to those [01:28:55] who have been on this planet longer than you, because the older I get or the [01:29:00] stages of life that I go through, you realise that how how when you were younger, you’re looking up [01:29:05] and you know you’re questioning what you’re being told from, from up there, but you don’t appreciate [01:29:10] it that wisdom until later on. And so yeah, it’s it’s taken [01:29:15] on board. It’s not all gospel but taken on board and reflect on what, what [01:29:20] elders are telling you. And that’ll set you good.

Prav Solanki: That’s [01:29:25] nice. That’s really nice.

[TRANSITION]: Um, yeah. What would.

Ala: Yours be?

Prav Solanki: Oh, [01:29:30] crikey.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Ala: I’ve always been dying to ask you that one, because you’ve [01:29:35] picked up a lot over the years. There’s been a lot of good words of advice that have come through. [01:29:40] I put you on the spot so you could just.

[TRANSITION]: Bloody well have, haven’t you? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [01:29:45]

Prav Solanki: So what? So what would mine be? What would mine be? Yeah. Um. [01:29:50] Enjoy yourself. Yeah. There’s very, very few [01:29:55] times I listen to everyone talk about, like, very, very serious things. Right on this, on [01:30:00] this podcast and stuff and around career and ambition. But [01:30:05] I think, you know, we’re here for a very short time. [01:30:10] Um, all of us. Um, the passage of time is really short. Bloody [01:30:15] enjoy it. Yeah. Enjoy the ride. Right. Happiness. Happiness [01:30:20] is is reflecting in that moment and enjoying that. You know that time, [01:30:25] right, with the people who are around you, right? So. So focus [01:30:30] on enjoying your time. Yeah. I think that’s one of the [01:30:35] most important things. Um, surround yourself with love. [01:30:40] And and what I mean by that is people who love you and people [01:30:45] who you love. Surround yourself by those people and [01:30:50] take some bloody risks. Yeah, go for it. Believe in yourself, [01:30:55] believe in yourself and take some risks. Yeah, those [01:31:00] would be. Those would be my three. Do you know what? I’ve never thought about it. I’ve [01:31:05] never thought in all the times I’ve been asking this question, I’ve never thought about it.

[TRANSITION]: Thank [01:31:10] you for sharing with us. Sorry [01:31:15] for putting you on the spot. No. That’s wonderful.

Ala: Every time I listen to it, I’ve [01:31:20] always been like, but what are yours?

[TRANSITION]: Wicked.

Prav Solanki: I’m glad you did. I’m glad [01:31:25] you did. Thank you. It’s been. It’s been a pleasure being a guest on the Dental Leaders podcast.

[TRANSITION]: Yes. [01:31:30]

[VOICE]: This [01:31:35] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one [01:31:40] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:31:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:31:50] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And [01:31:55] just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had [01:32:00] to say and what our guests has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

[TRANSITION]: If [01:32:05] you did get.

Payman Langroudi: Some value out of it, think about subscribing, and if you would share [01:32:10] this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so so much for listening. Thanks. [01:32:15]

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Sonia Szamocki: This sort of buying service, but where where you really are trying to do your best to help them [00:00:05] on a, on a human level and where they are putting an enormous amount of trust [00:00:10] in you just for the fact that you’re wearing a set of scrubs and that you’ve got a steth [00:00:15] around your neck and a and a lanyard. Those are the things that, now that I am somewhere [00:00:20] else, is the reason why people want to come and work in, for example, healthcare Start-Up, that connection [00:00:25] to I’m having an impact every single day, and I can I can see it in that person’s eyes that they’re grateful for what [00:00:30] I’ve done. I’ve given them something to help their pain, or I’ve improved their confidence even from something [00:00:35] that I’ve done aesthetically. Most jobs don’t have that. Yeah, they really don’t know that.

Payman Langroudi: The heartfelt [00:00:40] thank you from a patient, it’s amazing. It doesn’t exist in the world of business.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:50] is mind movers [00:00:55] moving the conversation forward on mental health [00:01:00] and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:01:05] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:01:10] gives me great pleasure to welcome Sonya Szumowski onto the podcast again. Sonya was on [00:01:15] the Dental Leaders podcast but I wanted her back on the Mind Movers podcast [00:01:20] to discuss the journey that she’s been on in terms of the stresses, [00:01:25] the juggle. Sonia is the founder of 32 Co, which is a disruptor [00:01:30] in the orthodontic space, and Oxford graduated medic who [00:01:35] went on to Boston Consulting Group and well left medicine, [00:01:40] went on to Boston Consulting Group, where she rediscovered business and entrepreneurship. [00:01:45] So it’s going to be an interesting conversation about how that journey progressed. Lovely to have you. [00:01:50]

Sonia Szamocki: Thanks, Payman. Lovely to be here.

Rhona Eskander: What a boss girl. Hey hey hey. I love [00:01:55] it, I love it. Congratulations and everything you’ve achieved.

Sonia Szamocki: Thank you. It’s. It doesn’t [00:02:00] feel like, um. And I’m sure it never does for either of you either. An achievement. It’s [00:02:05] a journey, and you’re in the middle of a part of it, and you’re looking to the next [00:02:10] bit. Maybe that’s something that, um, we’re not very good at is taking [00:02:15] a moment to stand still and thinking about what have we done so far? So [00:02:20] yeah, be interesting to to get into that.

Payman Langroudi: I alluded to it in the last pod about [00:02:25] you being a glutton for punishment. And since then my, my son’s now applying to Cambridge [00:02:30] and it’s massively stressful. Yeah. Massively stressful. You came out in a rash halfway through [00:02:35] his exams and he got his results and suddenly his face is completely different. You know, his predictions, [00:02:40] extra exams to get into Oxford in the first place from [00:02:45] the Netherlands. You’ve always done hard things. Are you comfortable doing [00:02:50] hard things?

Rhona Eskander: Is that before she goes on to that, I just want to say that it’s so impressive [00:02:55] and so incredible because I remember, like, Oxbridge was the Holy Grail. I mean, I was always told as a kid that I couldn’t achieve anything, let [00:03:00] alone get into dental school. And one of the most incredible things happened [00:03:05] to someone very close to me when I was 11, while I had a nanny, when I was living in the Middle East, [00:03:10] and she stayed with us from when I was born till I was 11. And then she found another immigrant [00:03:15] from Sri Lanka because you know how the community works. And then she started working for my family. And she’s still [00:03:20] with us now to this day. And my parents are 77 and 67. And at the time, [00:03:25] she was trying to bring her son from Sri Lanka to the UK. And my mum helped with that whole process [00:03:30] and he came and he just like he became a cleaner. And then eventually [00:03:35] I think she introduced him to another eligible Sri Lankan woman and they got married. And then quite quickly [00:03:40] they had a son. And then I remember my nanny. She made it her job to make sure [00:03:45] that her son, that her grandson was super successful and she put all this immense amount of pressure for him.

Rhona Eskander: She was like, [00:03:50] if you want their life like pointing it like me and my family, this is what you’d have to do. And [00:03:55] we were like, let him like live. And he eventually got a scholarship to City of London. And then he worked really [00:04:00] hard and unknowingly for all these years because obviously I moved home ages ago. He’d actually [00:04:05] seen me, my sister and my dad, his role models, and he was like, I want to be a doctor. I want [00:04:10] to be like Rhona. I want to be like Alex. Anyway, recently he got accepted into [00:04:15] Cambridge and I found out there’s only six people in the UK that are accepted into the medical [00:04:20] school, into Cambridge, and he’s one of those six. And my heart just is so [00:04:25] warm, you know. And as Payman said, it’s such a rigorous and difficult thing. But that drive [00:04:30] must come from somewhere, right? Because I don’t think I could have. I mean, I got advised that I could [00:04:35] go to Oxbridge for English literature, actually, but I didn’t do it in the end because [00:04:40] I wanted to do dentistry. But where did that come from? You know, to be like, right, I want to do Oxford.

Sonia Szamocki: Yeah. I can’t [00:04:45] pretend that I had anything like the journey that that young man went through. I think I [00:04:50] had a lot of advantages as a young person. So parents who were academic [00:04:55] were keen that we were academic and did everything that they could to support us. So we grew up in the Netherlands. [00:05:00] I’m Dutch, Polish, Indian by background, so I grew up as kind of an [00:05:05] odd fish in Holland, grew up as a Dutch kid in a Dutch school in a Dutch [00:05:10] environment. My first language was Dutch. I didn’t really my English wasn’t great. Apparently I spoke [00:05:15] with an American accent and. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Broken, broken English. [00:05:20] Yeah.

Sonia Szamocki: And, you know, because you sort of. We spoken at home, you know, it from the TV, but I, you know, I wasn’t, I couldn’t [00:05:25] read properly. And at some point my parents said, look, my parents had been to university [00:05:30] in the UK and they said, if you want to have the opportunity to also study in the UK, [00:05:35] we think you should have a British education, which meant that I went to [00:05:40] the British school in the Netherlands when I was about 11. And, [00:05:45] um, you know, up until that point, I don’t think, you know, I always worked hard. [00:05:50] I was encouraged to do my best, but I was always told or made to understand [00:05:55] that, you know, life is mine for the taking. The world didn’t owe me anything, and [00:06:00] that I had been given everything in life to be successful, and that if I [00:06:05] wasn’t getting. Top marks, then really I was going to ask myself, well, why? [00:06:10] Because you’ve had every advantage in life. Loving parents. You know what?

Payman Langroudi: School [00:06:15] is good for you.

Sonia Szamocki: An element of an element of competitiveness. [00:06:20] Definitely. I think I was very competitive as a young kid in everything in school and in sport. [00:06:25] And then I got into this environment where, um, again, I, you know, a [00:06:30] great school. And it was, it was clear that I could achieve anything [00:06:35] and there really weren’t any barriers other than my own ability to [00:06:40] basically get off my backside and do it. So it was less of a it was not fear [00:06:45] based. It wasn’t guilt based. It was just a drive. Um, that came from [00:06:50] an internal degree of competitiveness that I think kept going and and led down [00:06:55] to some unhealthy places as well. I think being just permanently driven, [00:07:00] uh, you know, applying to university was stressful. I was completely [00:07:05] obsessed and knew that I was going to go to Oxford. I don’t know why. I don’t know [00:07:10] where I got the idea from. I’d never been there, but I knew I was going to do it, and I made sure I did. And, [00:07:15] uh, I think when I got there, I think that’s [00:07:20] when I, a few things happened. I, I think I found my, my tribe. I think I found [00:07:25] people that enjoyed the same things as I did that enjoyed school, you know, didn’t think [00:07:30] it was hard work for the sake of hard work. They enjoyed learning and I loved my degree. [00:07:35] I thought it was. I actually thought it was great fun, but I also thought I [00:07:40] don’t have to try and beat these people. It’s actually really unhelpful to try and beat [00:07:45] these people. I’m going to see. I’m just going to focus on myself and see what I can achieve. [00:07:50] And that completely changed my mindset. Actually, I think I stopped making [00:07:55] it about other people, and I just made it about what I wanted to do in [00:08:00] life. I’ve never really.

Payman Langroudi: Failed until that point. Do you remember a moment where you did fail and you felt this [00:08:05] is the first time I’ve ever failed?

Rhona Eskander: Pei Pei like, there’s a lot of things that I want to unpack here, right? Okay. Already [00:08:10] before. Before. Well, first of all, first of all, I want to say, like, you have incredible humility. Like [00:08:15] what you’ve done is beyond the norm. I don’t care if your parents were privileged or not privileged or if you came like, what [00:08:20] you’ve done is not the norm. It is incredibly impressive to get into Oxford and Cambridge do not [00:08:25] just get you because you come from a good background. You get into those universities because [00:08:30] you are incredibly gifted and incredibly hardworking. So I think that’s number one [00:08:35] that, you know, don’t be a typical woman, just like take what you’ve achieved as incredible. [00:08:40] The other thing that I’m hearing, which I find interesting, is the competition thing, because actually I found the opposite. [00:08:45] Being a dental school, I went I was thrown into an environment where I was nothing like anyone because [00:08:50] I was half science based. So like left right side of the brain. So I loved biology and [00:08:55] chemistry, I loved English and philosophy, and I wanted all my English and philosophy friends. So I was friends with [00:09:00] people that were not involved in the Dental school. And I found the Dental school was actually like a way worse [00:09:05] version of school, because people were really competitive and very entwined with each other. So [00:09:10] do you think that’s because the culture in Oxford is somewhat different than, you know, redbrick [00:09:15] universities?

Sonia Szamocki: I think that people go there because they like [00:09:20] learning for learning sake. I think there is an element of that. And so [00:09:25] college system exists to create small groups of people that that [00:09:30] learn together. So you’re learning isn’t done. There is an element of lecture based teaching, [00:09:35] but most of your teaching is done in groups of 5 or 6. As you said, you meet together a few times a week with a tutor, [00:09:40] and it’s a very collegial environment where you come and you prepare something [00:09:45] and you debate and you discuss and you learn from each other. So there was almost no point in being competitive, [00:09:50] because the more you put into your little group, the more you got [00:09:55] out of each other as well. So I after I went to. So I [00:10:00] don’t think it’s a red brick versus other types of union or an Oxbridge thing. I think it’s [00:10:05] just the structure actually of the of the way that you learn. That means [00:10:10] that it doesn’t feel like, you know, only one person can be successful. [00:10:15] Actually, the rising tide floats all boats.

Rhona Eskander: Um, it’s the medical degree [00:10:20] in Oxford, though, in comparison to the US, because, for example, um, Leeds Dental School [00:10:25] was very much gearing you for a world of NHS and that’s what they were geared like. You are designed [00:10:30] to come out of this system prepared and dedicated to the NHS, [00:10:35] and that’s what I knew came out of Leeds like nailed loads of extractions, amalgams [00:10:40] and dentures, you know, can you believe. And then obviously you go out and you realise like one [00:10:45] of the things that was really drilled and I remember my tutors go, whatever you do, don’t become a general dentist. [00:10:50] Like it was like the worst thing. So either you have to be committed and pursue the route of [00:10:55] academia within your university, or you dedicate your life to the NHS. [00:11:00] Do you think Oxford Oxford was somewhat different in a way, as in, [00:11:05] did they want you to be more on the research side of things? Did they want, you know, they want you to change [00:11:10] the system? What what was your experience?

Sonia Szamocki: Yeah. So the the degree is structured differently. [00:11:15] So your first three years of medicine, you don’t see a patient. And that was made very clear that this is an [00:11:20] academic degree. You’re going to learn the science of medicine, not the practical [00:11:25] application your first three years. So you go and technically with your eyes wide open. Although how much can you actually [00:11:30] know when you’re 17 going to university? Obviously you don’t know anything. So but that’s that leads [00:11:35] you on to doing a lot of the kind of research type work. And it [00:11:40] means that at the end of those three years. So I left with an Ma, which was quite odd. I left [00:11:45] with a master’s and so that you can have a natural break at that point to [00:11:50] go down a sort of research route and never practice. Or you go on to clinical [00:11:55] school and then you, you are fully dedicated to your, your practical, you know, NHS [00:12:00] learning how to be a doctor. So it was very split actually. And lots of people did leave after those first three years. [00:12:05] Some left to go and, you know, into pharma or finance [00:12:10] or into research or when, you know, there was lots of that. And then, then, then there were people that [00:12:15] went back to, um, and pursued their, their the vocation [00:12:20] of medicine.

Payman Langroudi: And what about my question?

Rhona Eskander: I was going to say how you can ask about the failure.

Payman Langroudi: Failure [00:12:25] as someone who’d never failed, wouldn’t the first time you felt like you failed and how did that affect you?

Sonia Szamocki: Oh, [00:12:30] gosh. Um, so I, I’m not going to try and skirt on the question, but I think [00:12:35] that I have been an eternal optimist forever. So I, [00:12:40] I think that whenever something happens that is not to plan [00:12:45] my, my mental, my reaction is always to say, well, look, [00:12:50] what are we going to do with it? As opposed to stopping and thinking, I’ve failed, [00:12:55] I’ve never found it particularly helpful. Thought process to go through the bad. [00:13:00]

Payman Langroudi: Question, you.

Sonia Szamocki: Know, but it’s not. Things haven’t go not to say that things haven’t gone wrong. I think [00:13:05] they go wrong all the time, but I don’t I don’t know if I’ve ever seen even the most, the [00:13:10] most disastrous things as a failure because I’ve learnt an awful lot. And that sounds [00:13:15] really, really trite. But I think especially in the world where I am now, where for [00:13:20] every ten things that don’t work, the one thing that does work is the thing that makes the big difference to almost [00:13:25] not fail. You know, not failing is a really bad thing. You know, you’ve got [00:13:30] to be willing to, to throw yourself into situations where you just haven’t got a clue. And [00:13:35] if it goes badly, not to beat yourself up about it. So maybe I’ve [00:13:40] just blocked blocked it out. If there were moments where I really, I really wasn’t successful, [00:13:45] I have probably just picked myself up and gone and done something else and just honestly [00:13:50] just forgotten about it. So not to try and be evasive. Loads of things haven’t gone, [00:13:55] haven’t gone right, haven’t gone to plan. But did that happen.

Rhona Eskander: During university as well, or was it more so [00:14:00] when you left university?

Sonia Szamocki: I mean I think you’re one is quite sheltered at university. I don’t know if you found [00:14:05] that, you know, you’re quite mollycoddle. I felt a.

Rhona Eskander: Lot at university. Not physical exams, but rejections, a lot for [00:14:10] interviews and things like that.

Sonia Szamocki: Yeah. And again, I think that, you know, for example, failing. [00:14:15] So we talked a bit about, um, about fundraising and fast forwarding here, way, [00:14:20] way to sort of close to where I am now. But you know, when you go out and you try and raise money for a company, [00:14:25] you get 99 no’s for every. Yes. And that [00:14:30] can be really disheartening if you let it get to you. Whereas if you speak to lots [00:14:35] of other people who have been through the process, they’ll tell you that you’re going to get 99 [00:14:40] no’s and just make sure that every no that you get, you try and understand what went wrong. And [00:14:45] by the time you get to your 100th, you’re going to be ready for the. Yes. I think the other thing [00:14:50] that I would say, I think I’ve gotten much better, having changed careers quite a few times now [00:14:55] at recognising that every time I start something new, I’m going to be really, really shit at it. [00:15:00] So the first time I was maybe this is a good example, the first week or a month that [00:15:05] I was at BCG, right? Bcg is a very different kettle of fish to [00:15:10] being a doctor, so you’ve just about got your head around being a doctor. And then you leave and then you go into this new world. [00:15:15] And actually by that point, I had been in medicine for ten years because I’d done a six year degree [00:15:20] and then four years as a doctor, and then I was going to this new place.

Sonia Szamocki: And so you’re used to being [00:15:25] vaguely proficient at what you’re doing, and you’ve also got this title that means something to people, [00:15:30] and you expect to be able to turn up and hit the ground running and be really good. And I [00:15:35] was rubbish at that job for a long time, and I was told the day that [00:15:40] I joined that I would be very bad at that job and that, um, you know, you’ve just got a lot to learn [00:15:45] as a medic. You haven’t. You’ve got no life experience when it comes to building businesses, understanding businesses, opening [00:15:50] an Excel spreadsheet, opening up a file. But you just don’t know. So to get ready and [00:15:55] because, you know, people that went there were quite academic. They also said, [00:16:00] you know, but you’re going to think that you’re the exception to this, but you’re not you’re going to be really bad at this. So just [00:16:05] get used to it. Just just get on board. Just lean in. This is going to be really miserable. So I think I’ve got better [00:16:10] at understanding that process and just embracing it, as opposed to feeling uncomfortable [00:16:15] when things aren’t going well. Eventually you’ll get out of it and you’ll be able to look back [00:16:20] and go, God, that was I was very bad, and now I now I vaguely understand [00:16:25] what I’m supposed to be doing here, and that never stops. And it probably shouldn’t ever stop.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, you said you [00:16:30] enjoyed your degree. Do you sometimes look at a task or a job [00:16:35] or whatever and somehow train yourself to enjoy the process?

Sonia Szamocki: I [00:16:40] think so. I think that’s a really yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Some successful people have of [00:16:45] finding a way to enjoy whatever they’re doing, because there must be aspects [00:16:50] of your work that you hate, right? And yet, yeah, that’s a good question. Every [00:16:55] time I say a word like hate or I see your face wince because you just don’t like those words.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:17:00] think, you know, the thing is, is that I think you’re basically saying optimism to some [00:17:05] kind of degree. Um, and finding the benefits. But I don’t necessarily [00:17:10] agree with what you’re saying, because I think it takes a certain type of brain to appreciate that I [00:17:15] have ADHD. So if I find something so overwhelming an [00:17:20] Excel sheet, I can look at it and I can really try [00:17:25] and focus on it for two hours and I get even more overwhelmed. And it’s not because I’m not trying or not trying [00:17:30] to enjoy it. I’m so overwhelmed that my brain can’t take it. And I think that there comes a point as [00:17:35] well, of recognising what you do enjoy and being able to also ask for help. Slash, [00:17:40] delegate, slash, get someone else on board. I think there’s power in that. Rather than being like, I’m going [00:17:45] to be so optimistic about this thing I hate because you’re wasting time on things that you really love and [00:17:50] can do even better and be more productive at work.

Payman Langroudi: On your strengths rather than your weakness.

Sonia Szamocki: I can completely believe [00:17:55] that. So I’ve obviously ended up in a place where maybe I’ve been able to [00:18:00] link up the things that I’m naturally good at with what I enjoy. There are loads of things that I’m [00:18:05] not very good at. One thing that I noticed recently I’m so bad at directions [00:18:10] it is, but it’s like it’s paralysed, like I left [00:18:15] right? You know, I’ll, I’ll do a loop around and be like, where, where am I? And [00:18:20] it’s the same thing. If I were to actually sit down and think about how am I going to just get [00:18:25] better at this? Um, I think it would really stress me out because, um, you know, maybe [00:18:30] I’m just not very good at directions, and that’s fine. So I think it’s I’m not saying that this is universal. [00:18:35] I’m saying that this application that I’ve obviously naturally veered [00:18:40] towards, that’s where I think I’m, I’m I’m better at it.

Rhona Eskander: So let’s [00:18:45] talk a little bit about why you left medicine. So you graduated and then what happened. Yeah. [00:18:50]

Sonia Szamocki: So I became a doctor. I did my my F1, my F2 years in [00:18:55] London, in hospitals like everybody else does. And I think [00:19:00] your first years coming out of any kind of health care degree, you’re [00:19:05] again, you’re very bad, you’re very helpless, and you’ve been promised that you’re [00:19:10] going to be this, this useful person to your patients. And actually, I didn’t find [00:19:15] that I was very useful. I felt like I was doing more rounds and, um, sort of, [00:19:20] you know, getting bloods and x rays, but I thought I was basically going to be house and [00:19:25] I wasn’t. So the first first two years is a bit of a, you know, a bit of a reckoning. And [00:19:30] then again you start to get better. And then I decided that I wanted to be an eye surgeon, [00:19:35] that I just decided that that was my speciality. So I went down the route of, [00:19:40] of trying to be an eye surgeon, but at the same time I set up my first business, which was an educational [00:19:45] business. So it was a tutoring business that helped kids do basically [00:19:50] Stem subjects. So I was doing these two things at the same time, and then I [00:19:55] and then I realised going deep into this ophthalmology [00:20:00] world, that sitting in a dark room with not very [00:20:05] many people was really not good for me. It was really not where I wanted to be and someone that really [00:20:10] values sunlight. I am a completely different person in summer to winter. So actually, [00:20:15] even though the subject matter the I was fascinating to me and I loved [00:20:20] it, that that environment sitting in a room in the dark because you have to have the lights off in ophthalmology, you have to [00:20:25] have the eyes dilated.

Sonia Szamocki: I can’t, I don’t think I could do this forever. So I [00:20:30] completely changed. I went to A&E and I love, I loved A&E complete opposite like noise, [00:20:35] chaos, lack of structure, great fun. But [00:20:40] but I also thought, I mean, can I do this forever? I don’t, I don’t really know, I, I [00:20:45] think you have a lot of choice in, in healthcare when you’re, when you’re young to decide where you want to [00:20:50] go. And sometimes there’s a little bit of a paralysis around what do I choose. So I really [00:20:55] started to think about whether this career was ticking all [00:21:00] of the boxes for me. I think there was a lot that it had to offer, but I’d started this business. I was starting to [00:21:05] really enjoy running it. I was starting to think about other things outside of medicine that [00:21:10] I could do. And to your point about Leeds and the fact that you’re hanging out with the artists because [00:21:15] Oxford was a college based system I didn’t have, I didn’t just hang [00:21:20] out with the medics. There was only six of us in the college. There were loads of people doing loads of other things. So all my friends were doing [00:21:25] many, many different other jobs. Yeah. And they ended up when I moved to London. We moved in together [00:21:30] and they were all doing these cool kind of finance jobs. I started. I was exposed to lots of other [00:21:35] careers that I think opened my eyes a bit to the world.

Sonia Szamocki: Uh, [00:21:40] and then I met some people who had gone into to consulting. Didn’t even know what it was. I [00:21:45] don’t know if actually many people know what it is, you know, going in and advising other companies [00:21:50] on their strategy and how they should run their company. It just doesn’t really make sense. [00:21:55] And I just thought that that was that was a really good way to [00:22:00] combine what I was doing in, um, in medicine with the real world. [00:22:05] Uh, and so I spent some time trying to get in. Right. That wasn’t easy [00:22:10] either. Again, a very kind of rigorous application process not dissimilar to getting [00:22:15] into university. And and I did. And this is not no, no [00:22:20] more creative than that. I think in that process, what I discovered was [00:22:25] the benefit of asking people for help. Asking people [00:22:30] for help is not something that was that common for medics. Even as a student, [00:22:35] really, you kind of get on and do your job, whereas this was a world, [00:22:40] I do not know anything about this. I’m gonna have to ask lots and lots of people to help me understand this. [00:22:45] And that, I think is is something that has carried me quite [00:22:50] a long way, and understanding that most people are incredibly generous with their time [00:22:55] if they have knowledge to share. If you’re willing to go and ask the right questions and [00:23:00] show that you’ve done a little bit of thinking and a bit of homework, you understand their value. It’s made a huge difference to everything [00:23:05] that I’ve done since.

Payman Langroudi: How augmedix and for the sake of it, dentists seen [00:23:10] by something like a consulting company. I mean, there’s going to be people listening to this who are thinking, [00:23:15] I might have a go at that. Yeah. Are we seeing healthcare professionals seen as a good fit [00:23:20] or not a good bet?

Sonia Szamocki: I know when I, when I left.

Rhona Eskander: It’s a good bet. That’s my hunch.

Sonia Szamocki: Well, that’s what [00:23:25] people said and then I so I left thinking because people said, oh, [00:23:30] you’re a medic. They’ll love that. And in reality, uh, no [00:23:35] one cares at all. Are you good at this job? I don’t, [00:23:40] you know, you were a doctor and that was great. Good for you. But I need you to now do this job That was [00:23:45] really, really strange because you’re so used to being put on a pedestal and, um, [00:23:50] and revered, and it’s not negative. It’s not a negative. No, no, it’s not, it’s. Yeah. It’s not, [00:23:55] it’s sort of it’s a.

Rhona Eskander: It’s a nonentity is what she’s saying. Like it makes you.

Sonia Szamocki: Sort of.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:24:00] could even see it as a negative because we sort of don’t know about Excel. And you know, it’s.

Sonia Szamocki: A little bit of that. There’s also the fact [00:24:05] that you spent a long time doing it. So I, I went to I was, I was competing [00:24:10] or competing, but, you know, the people in my intake and I was learning the same thing as them were 21 [00:24:15] and I was, you know, so you’ve you’ve done other things for a long time. So now [00:24:20] you’re a bit older and you’re having to go right back to the beginning and you kind of feel [00:24:25] like, well, I’m sort of owed a little bit of credit for everything that I’ve done here, but you don’t get any credit [00:24:30] because you don’t know how to do any of this stuff. So, um, so I think what [00:24:35] I will say, though, is that people really understood the value of having had of [00:24:40] being good with people. I think that’s a skill that you can’t teach. [00:24:45] You get it from experience. A 21 year old won’t have the [00:24:50] experience that you’ve had dealing with patients every single day. [00:24:55] And what that brings from an emotional perspective and how you have to behave. [00:25:00] And I think you can translate the way that you behave in front of a patient, you know, quite nicely [00:25:05] to how you behave when you’re in front of a client. It’s very similar. So I think medics [00:25:10] are and dentists are trusted to understand what [00:25:15] to say and when to say it. And that’s the that’s actually the thing that is valuable in [00:25:20] in the world, all the other hard skills. And when I say hard, I don’t mean they’re difficult. I mean like things [00:25:25] that you learn like Excel, they’re pretty. I mean, anyone you can learn how to do that that’s not [00:25:30] that’s not difficult. So I think that’s the bit where, you know, medics, [00:25:35] dentists need to realise that that’s where you have an advantage. You know, people trust you [00:25:40] as an individual to not just be trustworthy but know how to deal with human [00:25:45] beings, real human beings. Did you?

Rhona Eskander: So did you feel like you were thriving in [00:25:50] a boardroom more so than you were in A and E, A [00:25:55] and E room?

Sonia Szamocki: Eventually? Eventually? Probably, yes. [00:26:00] Um, I mean, I don’t think you can throw. I don’t know if you can thrive in a any. [00:26:05] I’m trying to think about what that might look like.

Rhona Eskander: It was a trick question. Yeah.

Sonia Szamocki: I hated it. [00:26:10]

Rhona Eskander: Because I’ll tell you why. It isn’t that. But I think.

Payman Langroudi: You enjoy.

Rhona Eskander: The [00:26:15] healthcare system to me, is extremely flawed. I think there was a dentist. You might have seen this [00:26:20] that posted something about a vet bill recently. Like a tiny. It was like an animal. [00:26:25]

Payman Langroudi: And I paid 400 for my vet. And how come my patients don’t pay me more?

Rhona Eskander: And [00:26:30] then it was like, um, and they basically the whole premise was there was a photo of [00:26:35] a animal and it was like the VAT bill cost, I don’t know, £800 or whatever. And [00:26:40] then the person, the dentist had written it saying the whole health care system is flawed because we have patients [00:26:45] that are saying that we’re ripping them off, but they’re happy to pay for the VAT bill, but not for the root canal [00:26:50] or the fillings or whatever it is. And they said, you know, it’s a flaw in the system. And I think that’s [00:26:55] really the problem because I think medicine really put me off from the beginning. I saw my dad’s [00:27:00] struggle on the NHS. He’s been on the podcast as well, talking about his NHS journey. [00:27:05] I’ll never forget about when he told me that he was a junior doctor and the consultant [00:27:10] in the osteo department, like made him hold up someone’s leg for like seven hours [00:27:15] and my dad moved a bit and then he had a go at him and he was like, he had dandruff on his shoulders. And he said, a [00:27:20] typical consultant.

Rhona Eskander: And my dad was saying like, the whole system was awful. And now we have this new generation [00:27:25] of dentists, junior doctors that are like, no, we’re not doing this. Like we have enough [00:27:30] knowledge and we’re better equipped to say this is not okay. But unfortunately, the public [00:27:35] still aren’t on our side. The public are still like, no, we’ve paid for your education. [00:27:40] You owe us. I once had someone tell me off on TikTok, and this is going to make you laugh on Instagram, [00:27:45] because he said that I don’t represent the modern day Florence Nightingale. That’s literally [00:27:50] what he said to me, because I’ve been on the BBC and I was giving oral health advice and he’s like, you don’t look [00:27:55] like Florence Nightingale. I’m like, but who knows what Florence Nightingale would have been like if she had Instagram? Just [00:28:00] saying number one. And number two, you can’t expect. It’s the notion that we [00:28:05] are just here to give our life and soul. And the reality is if we are not [00:28:10] well within ourselves, physical and mental, we can’t give to patients. That’s the reality.

Sonia Szamocki: Yeah, [00:28:15] I couldn’t agree more. So I told the story before about this time in A&E when it was two [00:28:20] in the morning, and I and I weaned myself off of caffeine to be able to do night shifts. So I would, I [00:28:25] would be really sensitive to caffeine. And then at 2 a.m. I would go and I would get my fix and I’d be buzzing [00:28:30] for the rest of the night. And but obviously there’s no cost to open. So I [00:28:35] would go into the official patient kitchen, which is a fridge and a counter, and I would get [00:28:40] the world’s most disgusting instant coffee, and I would make myself coffee down in the corner. And then one, [00:28:45] one day, um, a nurse, you know, someone caught me and said, you can’t have that. That’s patient coffee. [00:28:50] And I was like, I cannot, I just don’t know [00:28:55] what. I don’t know how you’re supposed to do this job when you’re giving [00:29:00] everything emotionally. Physically. I haven’t weed for [00:29:05] eight hours. And then to be told that I can’t have patient coffee. The [00:29:10] balance between the way that we treat our junior doctors [00:29:15] in particular, but also, you know, throughout, I mean, it happens in the community as well, in [00:29:20] primary care, the expectation that patients have because they don’t see [00:29:25] the bill. Right, that you don’t see the NHS bill that you incur, not the real [00:29:30] one. So you don’t ascribe value to it.

Payman Langroudi: They actually showed them the bill.

Sonia Szamocki: Yeah [00:29:35] we do. Yeah they do. So the way it works in Hollywood is it’s insurance based. Is that you? You [00:29:40] will see that you don’t pay it. You see it. So you suddenly see, well actually that costs £15,000. [00:29:45] I’d better be grateful for it. And I’d better be grateful for the person who. I think that’s. [00:29:50]

Rhona Eskander: A really good thing we.

Sonia Szamocki: Should be doing.

Payman Langroudi: If the NHS the interview treatment says this treatment cost the NHS [00:29:55] 20 grand.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I think that’s a really I think because then they’ll start to appreciate the value of it. The [00:30:00] problem is there’s a conflict. Right. And I think the only thing to blame is when you see certain [00:30:05] doctors and dentists, particularly the ones that work in aesthetics, that start showing, like they’re really flashy [00:30:10] lifestyle. And then there’s people that can’t get an appointment because they have a toothache. And I think that’s also [00:30:15] where the conflict resides, where people I’m not saying they don’t have a right to live that lifestyle, but that’s what they’re seeing. [00:30:20] Right? It’s the old age tale of, you know, the Prince and the pauper. Marie Antoinette, you know, gives that [00:30:25] dialogue. You know, people not caring and not being in touch with what the public are [00:30:30] going through. So it’s a difficult one to battle. But [00:30:35] when you had left medicine, did you have any regrets? Initially, no.

Sonia Szamocki: I get I think about [00:30:40] this a lot. So regret number one. It’s not a regret, but I think what you feel very, very quickly [00:30:45] is the disappointment collectively of your peers and your family. [00:30:50] So, um, yeah, Indian part of the family is Indian. I mean, to give up [00:30:55] your your medication and give up medicine. For what? To go and work in [00:31:00] some un. You know, God knows what you’re doing now. So that’s number one. [00:31:05] And then that I think that there’s a lot of guilt even, you know, because I get approached [00:31:10] once a week on LinkedIn by a medic who wants to leave to say, [00:31:15] how did you do it? I want to I think I want to do it, but I don’t know how [00:31:20] and when I talk to them because a lot of people gave me advice. So I try and talk to as many people as I can. Guilt [00:31:25] is the first thing that’s going through their mind. What am I giving up? And is this am [00:31:30] I allowed to do this? You know, because yeah, someone else has paid for my education and that’s [00:31:35] the first thing. And then I think, what you what you then you move on into a new [00:31:40] world where it’s an entirely different world with different rules. And there are now new [00:31:45] things that are stresses. There are new things that are benefits. And [00:31:50] then you start to what floats to the top is actually what did I really value in that previous career, [00:31:55] and what did I take completely for granted? So when I left medicine [00:32:00] and I went into this new world where, for example, every meal was paid for, [00:32:05] I was given a taxi home every night and, you know, five [00:32:10] star hotels when I was seeing clients in exchange for here is a phone.

Sonia Szamocki: When [00:32:15] it rings, you will pick it up. It doesn’t matter what day it is and it doesn’t matter what time it is. You are [00:32:20] working in exchange for the things that I had completely [00:32:25] taken for granted in medicine, which is connecting with a [00:32:30] human being that is not buying a service from you where you don’t have to. [00:32:35] Well, they sort of buy your service, but where where you really are trying [00:32:40] to do your best to help them on a, on a human level and where they are putting an enormous [00:32:45] amount of trust in you just for the fact that you’re wearing a set of scrubs [00:32:50] and that you’ve got a steth around your neck and a and a lanyard. Those are the things that, now [00:32:55] that I am somewhere else, is the reason why people want to come and work in, for example, healthcare Start-Up. [00:33:00] That connection to I’m having an impact every single day. And I can I can see it in that person’s [00:33:05] eyes that they’re grateful for what I’ve done. I’ve given them something to help their pain, or I’ve improved their confidence [00:33:10] even from something that I’ve done aesthetically. Most jobs don’t have that. Yeah, they really [00:33:15] don’t.

Payman Langroudi: That a heartfelt thank you from a patient.

Rhona Eskander: It’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t exist in the world [00:33:20] of business.

Sonia Szamocki: It really doesn’t.

Rhona Eskander: I think people and I think that’s the thing, like people are like [00:33:25] that emotional connection that you can convey through medicine [00:33:30] and dentistry is really difficult to convey in any other job. I totally agree. I had a patient [00:33:35] that came in yesterday and she was really nervous, couldn’t even look her photos, and she was like, [00:33:40] it was all of your patient reactions that got me here, because I feel like you have [00:33:45] the ability to make people so happy. And it’s crazy. Like on the one hand, I was a bit like, oh my God, like, [00:33:50] does she think I have the ability? I don’t have that superpower. But then I recognise that [00:33:55] people can really feel that emotion through the screen, by me simply recording someone’s when it’s like.

Payman Langroudi: When. [00:34:00]

Rhona Eskander: I’m not giving them onions to kind of like, you know, think about.

Payman Langroudi: It is like it doesn’t even [00:34:05] make any sense. I mean, of course it makes sense, but we’re we’re a community of humans and all that. But, [00:34:10] you know, if, if to think that that is the thing that’s driving most of us at [00:34:15] work, you know, like that sort of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs sort of thing. [00:34:20]

Sonia Szamocki: But that’s why you end up being able to underpay. Yeah. Doctors, because you get you’re like, [00:34:25] well, you’ve got all of this prestige and you get all these thank you pensions and the pension [00:34:30] and the box of celebrations after, you know, you know, that is why I think [00:34:35] you get well. We allow as as medics [00:34:40] it to get to the point where it really is too much. Yeah, yeah. You know, [00:34:45] in other professions you would just leave the job, you would just leave [00:34:50] the job. And they, you know, because you’re part of this enormous machine, the NHS and, [00:34:55] um, you feel like that.

Payman Langroudi: Reliance on of the goodwill, on on [00:35:00] the goodwill of the doctors and nurses these days, uh, unfortunately [00:35:05] they’re, they’re so jaded that the goodwill isn’t there anymore. You know, my, [00:35:10] your dad must or your dad’s work in hospitals anymore. No, but he says the juniors, [00:35:15] they they they haven’t got that goodwill anymore, you know.

Sonia Szamocki: What do you mean? What do you.

Rhona Eskander: Mean by that?

Payman Langroudi: You [00:35:20] know, in our day, let’s say you were on call last weekend, and now they’re telling you to work [00:35:25] next weekend as well. Yeah. There would be something in you that was trying to please your bosses. And [00:35:30] who’s going to do the work and their patience, your goodwill to the system and say, all right, I’ll do that weekend. [00:35:35]

Rhona Eskander: But you’re saying now.

Payman Langroudi: Today, people just stand up for their rights?

Rhona Eskander: I think that, like, you [00:35:40] know, it’s difficult because sometimes as well, being a practice owner [00:35:45] that interviews a plethora of people and my practice represents extreme [00:35:50] diversity, I find it really difficult working with Gen Z for those reasons. Like, [00:35:55] I’m not coming in today because I’ve got period pains. I’m like, and do you know what I mean? Like, [00:36:00] I literally unless I was dying, I used to come in so I’d be like, how, how could this nation? But then [00:36:05] the other part of me is like, there’s so much education coming on about like female hormones and all this [00:36:10] stuff, and maybe they are the generation that’s understanding that you can take time off and that it is important. And [00:36:15] actually your period is also linked to your mental health. But I don’t know, like I don’t know what the answer is because also [00:36:20] you need a balance to keep business going. And as you said, as we have responsibility to take care [00:36:25] of patients, who’s going to take care of the patients if you don’t come to work today? And I think our sense [00:36:30] of, you know, that saying, you know, that sense of duty because like, you know, you’re always remember, like at dental school when people [00:36:35] like when you’re learning about like finger grips or how to place your hand and they say, always better to [00:36:40] cut yourself than the patient, right? And you know, that has quite a metaphorical meaning as well, right? It’s like you [00:36:45] become lost and immediately and that’s again, a bit like the Hippocratic Oath as well. Like, we [00:36:50] know that we have a sense of duty to look after everyone else before ourselves, which is [00:36:55] why it becomes almost impossible for us to manage our own mental health, our [00:37:00] our own health in general. And I think it’s a really tricky one. And as an owner.

Sonia Szamocki: As well, I think that [00:37:05] you’re right. So I speaking there from perhaps a different generation where there was a [00:37:10] very strong sense of duty. And when I ask friends now who, for example, imagine this, I have friends who are paediatric [00:37:15] surgeons, right. And there’s one of you, right? There’s one person who can fix [00:37:20] this part of a baby today in London. And the other dude’s sick. So [00:37:25] can you come in? Under what circumstance are you going to say no? Right. So people [00:37:30] need to, I think, understand when they see doctors [00:37:35] that they are that that is also what they’re going through and that a small [00:37:40] thank you or a recognition that that there are people who are trying to live the same [00:37:45] life as you when they go home. Will goes a long way.

Payman Langroudi: And then there might be [00:37:50] a six year old son who didn’t have his dad on his birthday because of that. Exactly, exactly. [00:37:55]

Sonia Szamocki: But it’s a good question about Gen Z. I think it’s you must have Gen.

Payman Langroudi: Z’s working for you now. [00:38:00]

Sonia Szamocki: This is the difficult thing. So in a I mean, yes, but but I [00:38:05] don’t know if people identify as Gen Z. I think you’re talking about a type. Yeah. A type of, [00:38:10] um, a way of thinking and a way of putting different things at the [00:38:15] forefront of your life versus, you know, the millennial. Yeah. And I and I find it as [00:38:20] just as difficult, really difficult to tease apart. Look, we’re a young business that is that [00:38:25] is growing very quickly and things change. And this is not a big corporate [00:38:30] where you can get lost. And if you don’t turn up one day, it’ll be fine. Someone will feel like every [00:38:35] person is incredibly valuable, and if you’re not, and this [00:38:40] is not the right place for you, and if you’re not willing to take on that responsibility of me and [00:38:45] the rest of the team being able to put the trust in you, you’re going to turn up and you’re going to own what you’re doing and you get to deliver. [00:38:50] Then you’re not just sound like my mum, not just letting yourself [00:38:55] down. You’re letting the team down, right? There are other people who are relying on you, and I find it really difficult [00:39:00] to firstly understand when you’re interviewing someone where they’re going to land, when [00:39:05] the shit hits the fan, where are they going to land on their look? I’m going to I’m [00:39:10] going to give it my all.

Payman Langroudi: If that’s happening all the time, right. That’s happening all the time. So you need to know the answer [00:39:15] to that question. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I think that’s why like Probations are so important and like having [00:39:20] that period to really reassess. But again, also like the [00:39:25] recruitment process in dentistry is like the worst thing about owning a business. I just [00:39:30] loathe it and hate it.

Payman Langroudi: So much in general.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And I just think that, you know, as you said, like [00:39:35] because the most important thing, I mean, obviously running a business is running a business, but you really worry [00:39:40] about the patient. You’re like, the nurse is not turned up, then you’ve got a temp and then the temp is upset. Do [00:39:45] you see what I mean? It has such a domino effect. You know what I mean? Like, the Dental [00:39:50] system really is so reliant, you know, on the team [00:39:55] working together. Like everything falls.

Payman Langroudi: Apart. In the same way, if one of her team doesn’t turn up one day, [00:40:00] you’re not going to get your aligners. Yeah. And then that’s going to have the same. Yeah.

Sonia Szamocki: All that that [00:40:05] was really important. You know we’re going to have to push it by a week. It’s I think the balance [00:40:10] between the rights that you feel that you have as a person, not just in work, but in society [00:40:15] and the responsibilities, I think is always shifting. And I think it’s always been, [00:40:20] you know, maybe a little bit far to one side, but I think it’s a little bit over onto the what am I? I know exactly [00:40:25] what my rights are and I’m sort of ignoring the responsibility bit. [00:40:30] And look, I think it’s being driven by the right things. Like you say, you know, it’s not all [00:40:35] good having people feeling like they are constantly under pressure to deliver at work and that they [00:40:40] cannot have a life outside of work and they cannot have what I really think.

Rhona Eskander: People are moving away [00:40:45] from that. I really, really think people now are really I mean, within dentistry, I’m hearing more [00:40:50] and more and I’m seeing even my own workplace. Like dentists, most of them want to work part time now. Yeah, they [00:40:55] literally want their day to have off. A lot of them want to become content creators, you [00:41:00] know? I mean, there’s all this stuff. So I think we’ve seen a massive movement, you know, that Gen Z, isn’t [00:41:05] it? Gen Z you’re seeing across the millennial board. Like, and when I say Gen Z, I mean [00:41:10] people kind of like in their 20s, but really they’re still technically millennials, right? And if you look at the if [00:41:15] you look at the costs and the numbers. Exactly. And it’s really like just the baby boomers, which [00:41:20] are our parents generation, are very much like, no, this is the way it is. You rock up my dad, [00:41:25] you’ve got chickenpox, go to school, cost £400 a day to school. It’s [00:41:30] going to happen. So I want.

Payman Langroudi: To know, Sonia, what would you consider as being your [00:41:35] darkest day? Could maybe break it into [00:41:40] into this business that tuco?

Sonia Szamocki: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or medicine. I want to know.

Rhona Eskander: More [00:41:45] about the business. Can we go into that?

Payman Langroudi: We’ll go into that.

Sonia Szamocki: So you think [00:41:50] about what’s the worst thing that could happen here as a business owner, right? [00:41:55] You’re thinking about, you know, something bad happening to a patient for me is really [00:42:00] up there with a bad thing happening, because number one, I care. [00:42:05] And number two, that has knock on effects to the trust that people have. And we’re in healthcare. We’re in very [00:42:10] much in a trust based business. So that’s the kind of first bucket. And luckily [00:42:15] we’ve had none of that. Second bucket is can I keep this thing alive? Right. [00:42:20] Can I look after not just the customers but my team who I’ve built, who have put their trust [00:42:25] in. How many are you? Me? We’re about 70 people now, you know. Can I keep this [00:42:30] thing going? And to your previous point around, if you bootstrap a company, you [00:42:35] start with, you know, no money and then you make money, and then you hire people as you go [00:42:40] and you run a profitable business. And to some extent, you have a sense of, um, [00:42:45] what you can afford to spend on a, on a weekly, monthly basis in venture. It’s the [00:42:50] opposite, right? Someone gives you money ahead of time and then you grow into the [00:42:55] valuation, um.

Payman Langroudi: And occasionally buy your way out of trouble. Right. And [00:43:00] you go back.

Sonia Szamocki: And ask for more money. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s a very normal part. You say, look, we’ve hit these milestones. [00:43:05] I think now we’re worth much more than we were last time. You know, we need [00:43:10] more money to fuel this next phase of growth.

Payman Langroudi: But what I’m saying is it can cause it can cause a sort of a [00:43:15] false situation as well. You you don’t end up learning a lesson of not [00:43:20] being able to afford that thing because you can.

Sonia Szamocki: The world of venture has gone through an enormous [00:43:25] change in the last two years. So in 2020, 2021, [00:43:30] it was so interest rates were so low that anyone could raise money [00:43:35] for anything. Right. So you go to a venture, um, investing, you say, look, I’ve got this great idea. I haven’t done [00:43:40] a single thing. It’s, you know, just written down here, I think I need $10 million. And [00:43:45] they say, here’s $10 million. And the system was just awash with cash. And there were people who did [00:43:50] very sensible things with that money, and they grew businesses. They hired the right people. They [00:43:55] built value in either in a product or in an idea or in, you know, [00:44:00] in a community. And then there were also people who, you know, as [00:44:05] you said, were like, great, we’ve got £10 million in the bank. Let’s go and buy a [00:44:10] swanky office. And oh, all. I’m just the stories that you hear from people [00:44:15] about the things that were invested in that make no sense for a young company. That was, I think, just [00:44:20] a lot of irresponsible, not just allocation of capital. Right. Because [00:44:25] the VCs have a responsibility to sensibly give money, but also how [00:44:30] that was, how that was then spent. And we’ve seen in the last year that it’s completely changed. [00:44:35] It’s now very difficult to raise money and you really, really have to have proven that [00:44:40] you’ve hit those milestones and a lot of those businesses don’t exist anymore. So that is [00:44:45] where the sleepless nights come in. And it’s less of a kind of we’ve had this one big day. It’s just a constant [00:44:50] nagging thing that you’re thinking about. Are we getting this right? Are we getting this right? [00:44:55] Because, you know, you’ve got this, you’ve got a roadmap that you’re trying [00:45:00] to hit and and everything has to go right. A lot of things [00:45:05] have to go right to make sure that that that you hit what you said you’re going to hit. [00:45:10] Um, what kind of a.

Payman Langroudi: Toll does it take on you mentally? And how do you get out of it when you’re in that situation? [00:45:15]

Sonia Szamocki: I think I used to be I used to be worse at it. I think I’ve really learned how [00:45:20] to cope with those thoughts. I think number one, having [00:45:25] a having a clear plan of what you’re going to do gives you a sense of peace because you can sort of see, well, [00:45:30] look, I can I can sort of think, I can see we’re going to get there. And then I it’s not a big leap to get there. And [00:45:35] then I can think, you can sort of see it in front of you. And that takes away some of the, the [00:45:40] worry. I suppose personally, for me, there are lifestyle [00:45:45] things that I’ve had to do to to make this feasible. I mean, [00:45:50] I’ll be honest, I work a lot, I work a lot, I work weekends, [00:45:55] I work late, and a lot of my team do too.

Rhona Eskander: That had an effect on your relationship [00:46:00] and your personal life?

Sonia Szamocki: Yes and yes and no. I think in the beginning [00:46:05] it was, you know, all hands on deck and, you know, you can [00:46:10] forgive anyone anything for, you know, working so many hours because it’s all very exciting. And it’s [00:46:15] important, I think, as it’s become the norm. Had to set [00:46:20] some rules in place, not just for myself but also for for my partner to say, look, [00:46:25] we’re signed up to this gig. You know, that is going to mean X, Y, and Z, but it [00:46:30] also means that I’m going to make time for time together where? And it’s I literally [00:46:35] have to say we right now we are not talking about work. I do not want to talk about work [00:46:40] for the next. You know this this much time. Don’t look at phones. Right. [00:46:45] So there’s like a in the morning. I don’t look at my phone until a certain time. And I really [00:46:50] try and use that time to prepare for the day and not [00:46:55] let you know not to just dive into the emails and dive into the into [00:47:00] the chaos that is about to kick off. So protecting the time in the morning, exercising every morning, [00:47:05] just trying to get out, even if it’s just for, you know, a quick jog or into the gym. [00:47:10] Those are the sorts of rules that have had to put in place to make it workable. And none [00:47:15] of it is rocket science. It’s all the stuff that vary.

Payman Langroudi: The relationship does give, [00:47:20] can give is tends to be the first thing to give because the business isn’t going to give.

Rhona Eskander: So look, [00:47:25] you know, as a female entrepreneur before we started chatting on here, sorry, [00:47:30] you probably don’t have much to kind of come on on this, but you can. And I asked you if [00:47:35] you Payman was talking about children and asked you if you had children. And you said, I [00:47:40] asked if you’re child free. And you said, you know, that language is really important because you didn’t say child less. I didn’t even [00:47:45] didn’t even cross my mind to say childless. I just said child free because I think that we’ve recognised [00:47:50] that women are making decisions now. And the crazy thing is [00:47:55] around the female body, around our hormones, around the rules, the [00:48:00] people that have set the rules. Really all men. Sorry to say this, and I’ve really delved into this over the [00:48:05] last few weeks and I’m like, oh my God, this is crazy, you know? And we’ve barely had any input over the [00:48:10] centuries on our own rights and bodies. And obviously that’s changing now, and we’re challenging things. [00:48:15] But children are something that I’ve been thinking about quite a lot as I approach my kind of mid [00:48:20] to late 30s. It’s something that is on my mind and I think, you know, [00:48:25] the biological clock, of course, dictates that it’s difficult as an entrepreneur [00:48:30] and a business owner because you’ve got one baby, which is your business, and then you think about [00:48:35] another baby. What are your feelings with regards to that subject as I’m talking about it?

Sonia Szamocki: Yeah, [00:48:40] you’re you’re right. We don’t have the same decision making powers [00:48:45] as men do because you could have a child. And, [00:48:50] you know, it’s not like nothing would change, but you would continue to [00:48:55] work.

Payman Langroudi: I could get back to work the same way as.

Sonia Szamocki: The same way. And and I and I just don’t [00:49:00] think that it’s as easy for women. That being said, I have spent a lot of time [00:49:05] and I do spend a lot of time with female founders and female CEOs and talk about this, actually. [00:49:10] And I would say the the reassuring thing is that every [00:49:15] single one of them that’s had had a child and runs extremely successful [00:49:20] businesses, some of them are, you know, have built unicorns, you know, it’s [00:49:25] it’s it’s possible. And you will you will figure it out. It’s universally the feedback [00:49:30] that I’ve had is that you worry about it and you think, is it the right time? Is it now? Should [00:49:35] I do it six months? And actually, because you’ve got to at this point in building a business [00:49:40] and everything that you’ve built up until now was also very difficult. You’re clearly the kind of person [00:49:45] who will just figure it out. So if this is something that’s important to you, [00:49:50] then do it and you will do what is needed to make both work. [00:49:55] But I can’t advise you now, or you can’t know now [00:50:00] what you’re going to have to do to prepare yourself for that, because how could you possibly know what it’s going to feel [00:50:05] like to bring another human into the world? That is, you know, that, you know, you’ve got children I’m [00:50:10] sure you couldn’t have described before you had your children, how that would have felt [00:50:15] and how that would have changed.

Sonia Szamocki: So maybe it’s not. How do you feel? So I [00:50:20] take a lot from that. As I said, like I spend a lot of my time talking to different people to try and get an [00:50:25] understanding and almost to try and get a to try and get the wisdom from people who’ve been there before. So [00:50:30] my view on this is that I should take that very seriously, which is that if I [00:50:35] if I want children and I think at some point I will, I don’t right now, [00:50:40] then I will put the steps in place. Well, if I’m fortunate enough that I can have children, [00:50:45] I mean, there’s another big question mark that that I don’t know. Um, [00:50:50] I mean, I haven’t done a huge amount of, of research into this.

Rhona Eskander: Actually got podcast on egg freezing, [00:50:55] my dad and Sarita, two separate ones. So there we go. Worth a listen.

Sonia Szamocki: But but I mean, [00:51:00] why are we needing so much help with female fertility now? Why is it so hard [00:51:05] for for women to to conceive? Um, is it is it maybe because we’re living [00:51:10] a little bit later? Or is it because there are just stresses and strains and things that [00:51:15] I think.

Payman Langroudi: We’re leaving it later that.

Sonia Szamocki: Happen in life?

Payman Langroudi: We’re definitely leaving it later.

Sonia Szamocki: Yeah, we are.

Rhona Eskander: Leaving [00:51:20] it later. And it’s like, I’m already going to be and sorry, you are two geriatric mothers as they [00:51:25] as they make the term. But the problem is, uh, Sonia said, actually, [00:51:30] whilst I have a lot of followers and friends on Instagram, like [00:51:35] some of them are having problems conceiving as young as like 28, 29 and that’s [00:51:40] young still in my eyes. Okay, sure. You know, maybe our parents generation, my mum, my mum [00:51:45] was considered old at 27, you know, in the 80s. That was crazy you know. And but [00:51:50] I think.

Payman Langroudi: 29 would have been old. Not old, but yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: It is, it is, it is [00:51:55] is, you know, and this is the kind of scary thing because it [00:52:00] plays such a pivotal role, I think, in women also [00:52:05] feeling like they can’t do certain things. I always wonder, would more [00:52:10] women be taking over the world in terms of like roles like CEO presidents [00:52:15] and everything like that? And, you know, it’s a really difficult thing because I’m not saying that I’m here to [00:52:20] exert all of this masculine energy, but I just think it’s very interesting [00:52:25] because you’ve got to make certain decisions.

Payman Langroudi: And we’ve had this discussion 100 times, but and [00:52:30] I’ve always said to you, you’ve got to take child care out of the discussion. If [00:52:35] you’re just simply talking about men and women. I mean, I think that’s an interesting question. Let’s put [00:52:40] children to one side. Do you think being a woman in the business world has been more difficult than it would [00:52:45] have been if you were a man?

Sonia Szamocki: Yes, I think so.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Rhona Eskander: By the way, [00:52:50] we debate this. We’ve debated this with Sarita.

Payman Langroudi: But why? For her? You know.

Rhona Eskander: Payman still yet to [00:52:55] find a woman that says no, but go on.

Sonia Szamocki: Yes. And it’s not a woe is me. I think [00:53:00] there are also advantages to being a woman that again, sometimes you [00:53:05] don’t even know that it’s happening. But, um, like it or not, [00:53:10] people look at women and make assumptions about what they will [00:53:15] or won’t do in terms of their career. So if you are looking [00:53:20] around.

Payman Langroudi: Childcare, right.

Sonia Szamocki: So what you mean about if you were, if.

Payman Langroudi: It was possible [00:53:25] to remove, cut, cut and paste child the whole childcare point out of the equation [00:53:30] day to day you’re running a company, you’re raising money. Is being a woman disadvantageous? [00:53:35]

Sonia Szamocki: Oh if you completely if it was possible to do so you know you don’t have to breastfeed. [00:53:40] And your mother fills the role of the woman.

Rhona Eskander: In the gender pay gaps, all these different things.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t believe [00:53:45] in gender pay gap.

Sonia Szamocki: Yeah. So so let me my my perspective [00:53:50] is that I grew up in a country so in the Netherlands and actually also oh my God, they’re awful.

Rhona Eskander: The Dutch [00:53:55] men. Sorry, sorry to anyone. I was mind blown. So I went to Africa Burn last year [00:54:00] and there were loads. Um, so obviously there’s loads of Dutch people that are very similar [00:54:05] to the South Africans. There was loads of them there and I was mind blown. Mind [00:54:10] blown about how like, the women act like men and the men were so useless. And [00:54:15] I was like, oh my God, the women are literally paying for everything. Like making all the moves and all this stuff like it was with such. [00:54:20]

Payman Langroudi: Women that just.

Rhona Eskander: Where do you think that.

Payman Langroudi: I got that?

Rhona Eskander: But what where did you think [00:54:25] the, um, the saying let’s go Dutch comes from, right? Like they don’t like men to pay for them [00:54:30] anyway. So one of my best friends ended up moving to Amsterdam and she was [00:54:35] like, whatever, the guy is really hot. Like she was going to this, like kind of new single era of her life back within four months. They [00:54:40] cannot deal with the Dutchman. She was like, it was horrendous and I don’t want to generalise, but she was [00:54:45] like, chivalry is dead. They don’t want to hold doors, they don’t want to buy you drinks. And they have this thing [00:54:50] called Kiki where they’re like, I’ll kick you. And like everything is like. And the women are the ones that, like, rule the roost. [00:54:55] Basically. Look, if if you’re into that. And that’s why I find it really funny because when people are like, oh my God, Rona, [00:55:00] you’re such a feminist and stuff like, yes, I am. But when it comes to [00:55:05] like, I like to feel desired and part of feeling desired is a man looking after me. [00:55:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, they have their version of that. Go ahead.

Sonia Szamocki: So that’s I think you’ve hit the nail [00:55:15] on the head. I grew up in an environment where men and women really weren’t treated differently, so I would play football [00:55:20] on the street with the boys. There really wasn’t a big difference. I also don’t remember [00:55:25] noticing that I was a different colour to people. Yeah, it wasn’t discussed. It wasn’t [00:55:30] it wasn’t a thing. And you know, I played a lot of European handball when I was growing [00:55:35] up. So my whole life was at the handball club and boys and girls were, you know, the same. We mixed, we trained together. [00:55:40] So this idea that men and women were different really [00:55:45] hasn’t been part of my life. Honestly. I think therefore when you then introduce [00:55:50] something that is a very traditionally female role, which is [00:55:55] the childcare part of it, I think that is where you see that is where you see the difference. [00:56:00] If you were to remove that entirely, which I think is very difficult. Yeah. Um, because ultimately, [00:56:05] you know, the woman carries the baby, you’ve got the whole you’ve got [00:56:10] the.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a difference. There is a difference.

Sonia Szamocki: I really think.

Rhona Eskander: That men and women are equal. Take out the kids. [00:56:15]

Sonia Szamocki: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: In in in.

Sonia Szamocki: Work.

Rhona Eskander: Anything in life?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Work. Let’s start [00:56:20] with work.

Sonia Szamocki: It’s.

Rhona Eskander: Come on. There is. There’s been so many like we even talk [00:56:25] about. For example, did you watch that Anne Hathaway film? I forgot what it’s called [00:56:30] now. Anyways, the film was what they I mean, there was the assumption that it was basically talking [00:56:35] about Olivia Wilde and Harry styles, and I’ll tell you why. So she is a 40 year old [00:56:40] woman that gets cheated on by her husband. Classically, he leaves for someone younger. She [00:56:45] takes her daughter to a concert. There’s the equivalent of like a One Direction group. Harry styles [00:56:50] out character. He fancies her. He’s 25, she’s 40. They have [00:56:55] an affair, yada yada yada. It’s quite a playful film. I think it’s based on a novel. Anyways, [00:57:00] and then there was this whole debate online about how women also get treated differently in that sense. Like, you [00:57:05] can be a really old guy and date really young women and no one will say anything. And then when she dated the younger guy, [00:57:10] she was called a cougar, a baby snatcher, a cradle snatcher. So a come [00:57:15] on.

Payman Langroudi: That’s that is just like uneducated thinking. But Payman.

Rhona Eskander: This is the whole thing. You [00:57:20] assume that all people are educated and think like you. That is not the case. You’ve even [00:57:25] said to me day.

Payman Langroudi: To day, day to day in the workplace.

Sonia Szamocki: This particular I don’t, I don’t operate [00:57:30] in, in the normal world at all. Right. I get to pick your in your world, but I [00:57:35] get to pick exactly who I bring into the business. So I’m going to be bringing people in [00:57:40] who represent what I think. So I, I, you know, we have a very diverse [00:57:45] team, not because I have hired for diversity, but because by hiring the smartest people, you will end up with a diverse [00:57:50] group of people. I have as many women as men. So we’re bringing people in to this very unusual [00:57:55] environment, which is fast growing Start-Up that’s sort of supported by [00:58:00] some of the top investors. And that’s not the real world, not for most people at BCG.

Payman Langroudi: Did [00:58:05] you feel.

Sonia Szamocki: As a.

Rhona Eskander: Consultant? Just tell me a little bit, because Payman [00:58:10] wanted to go off on a tangent, but tell me about about your company then and how it started.

Sonia Szamocki: So I [00:58:15] started the company after BCG and I spent a year just after BCG [00:58:20] working in a health tech company. So building a health tech company. We were building an app for patients [00:58:25] with haemophilia, so I was spending a lot of time on the on the cutting edge of, of healthcare [00:58:30] and of medicine. So I’d gone through this career as a clinician and then as a consultant, [00:58:35] a lot of which was spent in healthcare. So seeing how healthcare businesses run from [00:58:40] NHS trusts to pharma companies and then into the into the world of health tech. And I [00:58:45] was seeing so much cool innovation on that side, and I [00:58:50] was looking at essentially everything that was being brought to market from new devices, new pharmaceutical [00:58:55] treatments and then thinking, yeah, but if I were still a doctor, [00:59:00] there is no way that I’m using any of this stuff, at least for a generation. And why is that?

Rhona Eskander: Because [00:59:05] funding.

Sonia Szamocki: How are you supposed to learn how to use this stuff? Where is the where is number [00:59:10] one? Where’s the teaching? Where’s the understanding? Where’s the knowledge? Where’s the incentive for me to try something new? Actually, [00:59:15] this stuff.

Payman Langroudi: The cutting edge and clinical, you’re.

Sonia Szamocki: Never at the cutting edge. And especially in in primary [00:59:20] care, it might be for tertiary, you know, specialist hospital. You might get access to this cool stuff. So [00:59:25] I was thinking about that and I was thinking, wouldn’t it have been cool if if [00:59:30] I were still a doctor? Those are the sorts of things that have made me excited [00:59:35] about looking after patients, because this is where the action is. And I feel [00:59:40] like you’re ten, sometimes 20 years behind in the kind of healthcare that you’re able to deliver as [00:59:45] a frontline clinician. So what would it take to get that stuff into the [00:59:50] hands of your normal doctor, your normal dentist? That’s where the thinking came from. And it came down a [00:59:55] lot to really trying to understand and really get into the head [01:00:00] of the average doctor or dentist and saying, why? Why is it so difficult to try new things? Well, [01:00:05] it’s risk. You are never going to take an unnecessary risk on a patient. If you’re someone says to you, I’ll pay [01:00:10] £1 million to put this in your patient’s mouth, you’d be like, I’m not taking that. I don’t know what that is. You know [01:00:15] that people, I think, need to realise that, um, to your point about, you know, dentists being money grabbing potentially [01:00:20] because they’ve got a nice car, 99.9% of dentists have. I said, I’ll give [01:00:25] you £1 million to stick this random thing in their mouth. They would say, no way, I’m not doing that. So [01:00:30] risk aversion, not wanting to take risks and also just not understanding what it is and not [01:00:35] feeling comfortable with big barriers.

Sonia Szamocki: So I started to think about, well, [01:00:40] what, what, how could I unblock that? And I think it’s it’s fundamentally down [01:00:45] to the experiences going right back to when I was in A and E, where there [01:00:50] were times when I felt like I could do cool new things so I could do a lumbar puncture [01:00:55] for the first time on a patient. Why was I able to do that? Because I would do some reading. I would actually learn [01:01:00] about this technique. Then I would get an anaesthetist [01:01:05] to come and sit next to me and do it with me, and that gave me completely different [01:01:10] superpowers as a doctor. So the fact that I was in an A&E is one of the only places [01:01:15] where you have this. You have every single expert in every field just there. [01:01:20] You can walk up to them and say, hey, I’ve got this thing. I’ve no idea what it is. Can you come and [01:01:25] help me look at this? And And most doctors and dentists, especially in primary [01:01:30] care, don’t have that unless you work in a, you know, you’ve got specialists in your clinic unless you’ve got specialists [01:01:35] right there. So, you know, I wanted to build something that would help the average [01:01:40] clinician get access to the world, expert in the thing that the patient had that was in front of them, so [01:01:45] that they could start to deliver that care there, as opposed to that patient having to go and travel to wherever [01:01:50] that was. And that’s basically the concept behind 32. So we started [01:01:55] in orthodontics because one of the reasons was because [01:02:00] there was an explosion in direct to consumer online orthodontics. [01:02:05]

Sonia Szamocki: And I was, you know, I didn’t know that much about dentistry at the time. I spent a bit of time in Covid, [01:02:10] you know, thinking about how to deliver treatment remotely for, for patients when their dentist was shut. [01:02:15] And so it’s I started to talk to dentists and start to ask them, why is this [01:02:20] allowed? I’ve had braces. How is it possible that you can go online and [01:02:25] buy braces from goodness knows what, and [01:02:30] then put it in your mouth? That can’t be legal. And also, why are they not just coming to you [01:02:35] to get this treatment? Why don’t they just. You’re right next door. They’re your dentist. So it came [01:02:40] down to the fact that not every dentist offers this treatment. It’s a very specialist type of healthcare, [01:02:45] and it’s something that orthodontists are trained in. And [01:02:50] so it’s not it’s just not something that everyone does and it’s not something that actually promotes. So patients are finding [01:02:55] much easier just to go online and buy it there. So um, so I wanted to build something [01:03:00] that would help the average dentist deliver the best, the highest [01:03:05] quality orthodontic treatment with the greatest degree of certainty by working [01:03:10] with the top experts in the world. So basically building a collaboration platform [01:03:15] between clinician and clinician, which which really doesn’t exist [01:03:20] to try and simulate that environment of, I can just walk up to you in A and E and just [01:03:25] ask you, what do you reckon? I’ve not done many of these before or I’ve done loads of these before, [01:03:30] but how would you do this? Because I’m interested.

Sonia Szamocki: Because you’ve done, you’ve done. You might have a different opinion of how we [01:03:35] might attack this. That’s that’s basically what we’ve built. And fast forward to now, [01:03:40] it’s a, it’s a platform that, that dentists can join to deliver a line of care. But with that [01:03:45] model where you get paired up with a specialist orthodontist who’s in the UK, who’s a real expert, who’s going to work with you on [01:03:50] that case in whatever capacity you want, whether it’s just a [01:03:55] second pair of eyes or I actually really would like you to, to to explain to me exactly how [01:04:00] I’m supposed to do this based on your experience, so that we can together get the best outcome for the patient. [01:04:05] And that’s really that’s really the vision to try and help, um, reduce some of [01:04:10] the sense of, of fear and isolation when you’re a primary care provider alone [01:04:15] having to tackle things that you’ve not, that maybe you’re not the world [01:04:20] expert in, because how can you possibly be the world expert in everything as a clinician and where you’ve got a patient in front [01:04:25] of you, and because you’re trying to protect the patient clinician relationship [01:04:30] and the faith that they’ve placed in you, you don’t want to say to [01:04:35] them, I don’t know how to do this, to change that conversation into, I do know how to do [01:04:40] this because I’m actually going to work with an expert and we’re going to do it together. That’s basically it. I love it.

Rhona Eskander: Do you provide the aligners [01:04:45] or just. Yeah, yeah.

Sonia Szamocki: Are you still doing.

Payman Langroudi: That model that you were doing before where you explain explain [01:04:50] the model. This is very interesting.

Sonia Szamocki: Yeah. So you know, obviously we want to be able to provide that service [01:04:55] for free as part of your, your aligners. Right. So in order to be able to [01:05:00] deliver this treatment, you have to not just have the treatment planning, but you also need to buy the [01:05:05] aligners. Otherwise you’re, you know, you’re it’s a disjointed. So what we what I spent [01:05:10] a lot of time doing is looking at the aligner manufacturing market and thinking and seeing that [01:05:15] actually all of the big brands are making in the same enormous factories in places in Europe [01:05:20] and in Mexico and in, um, in Egypt. And, and they were [01:05:25] using the same materials, the same 3D printing technology, the same technologies. This is all very, very [01:05:30] advanced stuff. That’s come a long way, but anyone can buy it. So peop dentists [01:05:35] were paying way over the odds for their aligners. I mean really the mark-ups on these things [01:05:40] were enormous. And we knew, we knew that if we went directly to them and essentially created a [01:05:45] marketplace where rather than the dentists having to beg for [01:05:50] the best prices, we would negotiate on their behalf and get the best deals on the day from [01:05:55] all the top manufacturers and make sure that they were being controlled for quality. And then because [01:06:00] there was so much margin in that, using some of that to pay to [01:06:05] get the specialist involved, and then you would be at a point where it’s still less expensive, [01:06:10] but also you’re getting. So they almost.

Payman Langroudi: Put it out to tender every, every case. And [01:06:15] then one of the manufacturers says okay I’ll take that one. Yeah. So it could be, you know, one case could be from [01:06:20] one factory and another case from a different factory based on who needs to work. Yeah, well.

Sonia Szamocki: It’s more about. So we [01:06:25] don’t let any factory on. It’s really tightly controlled so that everything is pre-screened. So we’ve probably [01:06:30] worked with the top ones all over the world. And we, we have very strict checks on [01:06:35] how many. There’s probably about 20 big ones in the world.

Payman Langroudi: That you.

Sonia Szamocki: Use that we have interviewed [01:06:40] and worked with. We only have about four at any one moment that meet the mark, [01:06:45] and the quality should be exactly the same across the board. So it’s more that we [01:06:50] can say, right, we have got a ton of dentists who all want the [01:06:55] maximum money off. You know, they want the lowest price they can get. So we’ll pool all of their orders, [01:07:00] and then we will be able to negotiate the best discounts for them Because as an individual dentist, [01:07:05] if you were to go to that manufacturer, they would never be able to give you good prices because you’re just one person. [01:07:10] Whereas if you lump everyone together, it’s a much more of a democratised experience. [01:07:15]

Payman Langroudi: The 70 people, how many of them are programmers? Developers? [01:07:20]

Sonia Szamocki: Uh, about a third. About a third.

Payman Langroudi: The rest of sales and.

Sonia Szamocki: Um, operations [01:07:25] and then commercial. Yeah. Yeah. So to build something like this, [01:07:30] I mean, the platform itself is an incredibly complex beast to, to be able to make that [01:07:35] feel like a very seamless experience. And I didn’t know an awful lot about [01:07:40] product or software development before I was in health tech. It’s it’s [01:07:45] an entire art and science in and of itself and something that [01:07:50] can, you know, it makes or breaks companies really, if you can get a product working really well, [01:07:55] it reduces the amount of people that you need. As you can probably imagine, if you can automate things, [01:08:00] then you’re you don’t need per per new customer. You need fewer, you know, incrementally [01:08:05] fewer people. So, um, that’s a that’s a big part of it is trying [01:08:10] to to get that right. And, you know, that’s a challenge when you’re when you’re working with that many [01:08:15] people, you’re trying to get everyone to go as fast as they possibly can and not compromise [01:08:20] on quality, that’s, that’s a, that’s a really difficult [01:08:25] that’s a difficult thing of this job. That might be the.

Payman Langroudi: Peculiarity of health tech, right? [01:08:30] Yeah. Whereas a normal tech that can just go fast, break things and it’s not the end of the world if there’s a mistake. [01:08:35]

Sonia Szamocki: Exactly right.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, tech and health tech, you’re not going to lose [01:08:40] lives on me.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You’re not just tripping.

Rhona Eskander: Something reminds me of that girl. What’s the one that [01:08:45] was like on the cover of Forbes? And then they all found out she was a massive con with her blood. Yeah, yeah. Elizabeth Holmes, that’s [01:08:50] it, that’s it.

Sonia Szamocki: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What a story.

Rhona Eskander: You know what, Elizabeth Holmes?

Payman Langroudi: No, this.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Of [01:08:55] course.

Rhona Eskander: Incredible, incredible. I knew she was a powerhouse. You know where on my [01:09:00] movies. Not Dental.

[TRANSITION]: Leaders, remember? Yeah. So go on. Yeah. Go [01:09:05] ahead.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So now going forward. Yeah. Having to raise money [01:09:10] now are you having to like I know for instance I [01:09:15] is the sort of the, the the buzzword. Yeah. Are you almost having to include [01:09:20] I to be taken seriously by the investor?

Sonia Szamocki: It’s a good question. [01:09:25] Um, I think that you’d be silly not to be using AI. We use AI. [01:09:30] Yeah. I think if you’re going to use it as a marketing tactic, I think you’ve got to [01:09:35] be able to stand behind what you say, because eventually people are going to start to call, [01:09:40] you know, what you know.

Payman Langroudi: Of cases of people who are doing that.

Sonia Szamocki: Of course. Of course. [01:09:45] I mean, because all of these tools are publicly available now. You [01:09:50] know, anyone can log into Gpt4 four and have a play. I know of lots of companies [01:09:55] that are just a layer on top of GPT four. Now. That doesn’t mean it’s not a valuable thing to do, but it means you haven’t [01:10:00] built fundamentally the AI infrastructure that’s driving [01:10:05] this. So yeah. Um, but do you need to be talking about, I mean, yeah, you [01:10:10] you probably it probably doesn’t hurt to have an AI story if you’re raising money now, [01:10:15] but it’s already very saturated. It’s already very saturated. An enormous [01:10:20] amount of money has already been deployed into I, and now they have to see whether they can grow into [01:10:25] those valuations. So I’d say it’s I’d actually say you maybe almost a little bit [01:10:30] too late now to catch the early wave, did I? Yeah, I think so. Yeah I think [01:10:35] so.

Payman Langroudi: But what about so what about the business I mean where do you see it going? And I mean [01:10:40] where do you see yourself in the business going?

Sonia Szamocki: So this for me, this [01:10:45] was always about rolling out this model into lots of areas.

Payman Langroudi: Not just ortho. [01:10:50]

Sonia Szamocki: Not just ortho. This is about building a way of working where a clinician [01:10:55] can work with another clinician, and they can share knowledge and expertise so that that [01:11:00] clinician who has an awful lot of knowledge and a connection [01:11:05] with that patient can do more. That’s that’s always been the vision.

Rhona Eskander: So and beyond dentistry or you want [01:11:10] to stick to dentistry.

Sonia Szamocki: I think dentistry at the moment because I think there’s just [01:11:15] so much more that we can do to expand this way of working. [01:11:20] And then, yeah, going going forward, I mean, there’s so many there’s so many use cases where you [01:11:25] could probably imagine that it would be quite nice for you to, as a patient, to know that your doctor is [01:11:30] in touch with the world expert on insert thing here.

Payman Langroudi: That’s where that the CEO of [01:11:35] Pearl I and and I was asking him when why why Dental. Yeah. [01:11:40] Because he had a he had an AI company that was looking at, uh, logos. [01:11:45] Um, and he turned that into looking at x rays. And I said, why Dental? [01:11:50] And he said, he said that then dentists are much earlier [01:11:55] adopters of new technology.

Sonia Szamocki: Absolutely agree with.

[TRANSITION]: That. Doctors agree.

Rhona Eskander: But also the.

[TRANSITION]: The other thing is that. [01:12:00]

Payman Langroudi: Businesses are.

[TRANSITION]: You know, you can decide when.

Rhona Eskander: You when you’re in what I feel like the matrix of [01:12:05] the hospital life, they make you feel like it’s impossible to leave. And it’s like my specialist friends were the ones [01:12:10] that like, really jaded and a little bit more guarded about trying new things. And also, like my dad, I [01:12:15] told you, you heard his story. He was so desperate to leave the NHS, and he started to try to think about [01:12:20] making, like, a shampoo business or like a soup business. And, you know, he met this [01:12:25] business consultant. He was like, why wouldn’t you be a private doctor? Because my dad thought it was so impossible to become a private doctor [01:12:30] because that’s what he was brainwashed to believe. Like, you are in the system and you [01:12:35] cannot leave the system basically, unless you do something radically different. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:12:40] sunny looks right now.

[TRANSITION]: Then just a very.

Sonia Szamocki: Much more open to more.

[TRANSITION]: Open to new ideas.

Sonia Szamocki: They’re [01:12:45] curious. Yeah. I think there’s there’s a lot to be said for that.

Rhona Eskander: So, Sonia, [01:12:50] what’s your words of wisdom for young [01:12:55] female entrepreneurs that want to start something [01:13:00] that might be different to what they’re used to, i.e. medicine, [01:13:05] dentistry or any vocation. And they don’t even know where to start. But they know that they desperately want to leave [01:13:10] their profession. What would be your words of advice?

Sonia Szamocki: The first thing I would say [01:13:15] is speak to people who have done it. Yeah, the scariest thing, the crossing [01:13:20] the chasm is the the leap into the unknown.

[TRANSITION]: Feels.

Sonia Szamocki: So [01:13:25] insurmountable that it’s almost always safer to just stay every time you sort [01:13:30] of try and drift and you sort of look at the alternatives, you’ll always be pulled back. Because [01:13:35] especially if you’re in dentistry, you haven’t got, you [01:13:40] know, you’re making quite a good salary, you’re making a decent amount of money, and you’re an expert [01:13:45] at that. So every time you’re looking to move out, you’re always going to be pulled back in [01:13:50] into the comfort zone. So speaking to people and asking them how they how [01:13:55] they did it will help you feel comfortable in discomfort is probably the first [01:14:00] thing. The second thing I would say is just do one small thing. It doesn’t have to be the whole hog [01:14:05] straight away. You don’t have to. If you’re interested in selling a business, it doesn’t have to be [01:14:10] a multi-billion dollar business. I set up a small business, and then I set up in my head [01:14:15] and tried to set up five six other businesses that didn’t work. And and eventually you come [01:14:20] upon something that does work. The first step is the biggest step. It’s the most important step. And from there [01:14:25] you will your world will be so much more. You will open up the world so much more to yourself. [01:14:30] So don’t try and go the whole hog straight away. Just take the first step and [01:14:35] speak to people. Those are probably.

[TRANSITION]: My.

Sonia Szamocki: First words.

[TRANSITION]: To many.

Payman Langroudi: More dentists [01:14:40] who now have business ideas?

[TRANSITION]: That’s great.

Rhona Eskander: When I went on Dragons Den, everyone was like, [01:14:45] oh my God, amazing. And now you’ve got dentists going on like The Apprentice. And I think it’s great. I think it’s amazing. [01:14:50]

Payman Langroudi: But I get the question all the time, right? What should I do? How should I? And my general advice [01:14:55] to them is incubator. Find an incubator. Because that that will I mean, in a way your [01:15:00] boss and consulting days were your incubator, right? To understand what goes on [01:15:05] in business. Yeah, but that’ll kind of tell you if you’re if it’s right or wrong or if you’re right or wrong. [01:15:10] Yeah.

Sonia Szamocki: You can always go back. Especially if you’re in industry. You can always go back.

[TRANSITION]: That’s do you know what I would say? [01:15:15]

Rhona Eskander: Always try to make the mistakes of the changes before you feel that you’ve got too many commitments. Because [01:15:20] if you’re 50 and suddenly we discuss this last week, then you’ve got a mortgage, two kids [01:15:25] and a wife that’s a full time housewife or something like that. And then you’re like, but I can’t physically do it. Yeah. [01:15:30] So I think, like, better make the mistakes younger and you can always pick yourself up. And like [01:15:35] you said, you don’t lose or you don’t win or fail, you win [01:15:40] or you learn because every failure has an opportunity for learning. And I think that’s about changing [01:15:45] and reframing the narrative. Yeah. Well, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed this. It’s [01:15:50] been an incredible chat. I’m so honoured to have a amazing female, um, you know, who’s an [01:15:55] absolute boss woman and doing incredible things in the world. So thank you so much for joining us. And if people want to [01:16:00] find your platform, could you direct them? Yes.

Sonia Szamocki: It’s W32 Co.com. Um, [01:16:05] or follow us on the Instagram. And yeah, if anyone does want to [01:16:10] learn about life after healthcare and wants a bit of advice, I’m on LinkedIn. I’m always happy to help. [01:16:15]

Rhona Eskander: Okay, perfect. Thank you so much.

[TRANSITION]: For having me.

Teki: Now, obviously when you’ve got a bigger business and this is been my biggest challenge, [00:00:05] is you can have a small team that are bothered. Yeah, okay. Now try and get yourself a big team that’s bothered. [00:00:10] Where are we going with all this. Can you have quality and quantity? For [00:00:15] me it depends what your definition of quality is. For me, I [00:00:20] can say that I can’t have more than a practice, more [00:00:25] than one practice that’s bigger than four surgeries and still maintain [00:00:30] the quality that I want to give to my patients.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not up to it. Yeah.

Teki: It’s [00:00:35] either I’m not up to it, or I can’t find the people that are going to be able to match [00:00:40] the standards that I want for them to give to my patients.

Payman Langroudi: But do you accept? It’s possible, but you’re [00:00:45] just not up to it.

Teki: It’s possible. Yeah, but you have to know your own limitations.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:50] is Dental Leaders, [00:00:55] the podcast where you get to go one on one [00:01:00] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:05] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:01:10] gives me great pleasure to welcome techie suddenly onto the podcast, [00:01:15] otherwise known as Teeth by Teki. Thank you. One of the biggest brands in dentistry. [00:01:20] Massive Instagram I remember seeing of yours, and two practices [00:01:25] and a little bit of a teaching career in both aligners and composite bonding. [00:01:30] Um, take is, for me, being an enigma. Really. I’ve always [00:01:35] watched you from from from afar. Yeah. Um, but it’s a great [00:01:40] pleasure to have you here. Thanks. Thanks for coming.

Teki: Thanks. I know it’s taken a while to get here, but I’m glad to be [00:01:45] here. And actually, it’s made the episode even better because so much has happened in the last year, so it’s only going [00:01:50] to bring more to this discussion.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me, how did you even get into dentistry? [00:01:55] Why did you get into dentistry? What? What kind of a kid were you?

Teki: Yeah, dentistry wasn’t, [00:02:00] uh, it wasn’t planned necessarily a career. When I got to A-level [00:02:05] stage, I did a variety of subjects. My favourite subject at school was always history, [00:02:10] and I took it actually for A-levels and I remember doing food technology. I did maths, [00:02:15] but luckily I had my chemistry biology to allow me to go into anything [00:02:20] medical and towards the end of sixth form I [00:02:25] still didn’t know, but the the college was insisting that you did some kind of career. Uh, [00:02:30] we used to call it a careers room that you’d have to go to and show them what you were doing to find something. [00:02:35] And you typed in all these different things that you like doing. I like working [00:02:40] with people outside, indoors. And a few suggestions come up. One of them was a dentist [00:02:45] because I had that a little bit of an artistic side. And then based on that, you have to go and do work experience. [00:02:50] So I picked the closest dentist to the college to go and do work experience purely [00:02:55] ease. Now my experience as a patient, I had typical orthodontic [00:03:00] treatment from when I was younger for for extracted walking into [00:03:05] an old house which smells, you know, dentist didn’t say anything. I remember the nurse [00:03:10] being nice, giving you a sticker at the end and it just NHS. It wasn’t something that I hated. [00:03:15] It was just something that I, you know, I was a good kid like that. I understood I needed to go. Yeah. I [00:03:20] walked into this practice, um, down the road from my college.

Payman Langroudi: Which was where? [00:03:25]

Teki: Hornchurch in Essex.

Payman Langroudi: Is that where you grew up?

Teki: Yeah, I grew up in Romford [00:03:30] in Essex, and I was blown away. The practice was a private [00:03:35] practice, and it was like I’d walked into somewhere in LA, Beverly Hills. It was something [00:03:40] else. There was tiles everywhere. Flat screens at the time weren’t even a thing. But there was the the [00:03:45] dentist. The way that he treated his patients was [00:03:50] something I’d never seen before. And I remember at the end of the appointment he was doing, it was at [00:03:55] the time that people were having a lot of porcelain like smile makeovers.

Payman Langroudi: Who was [00:04:00] it shouting out?

Teki: He was? His name was AD Raman, and I don’t [00:04:05] think I’m not sure he’s still there. I think he moved away, but what he was doing, his [00:04:10] patients were crying because they loved their happiness. They were giving him a hug they [00:04:15] were coming in with. And it was something that I’d never seen before. They had a receptionist. I have to shout her out, [00:04:20] Gina, what she did for the patients, the level of patient care. It [00:04:25] was something I’d never seen before. And at that point, [00:04:30] for me it was like, it’s not necessarily what you’re doing, it’s how you [00:04:35] do it. He was successful. He was young. He was like kind of pretty much how old I am. [00:04:40] He was in his 30s. He was successful. He just treated people really well and he [00:04:45] was obsessed with what he’d done. I did not look, I can’t even remember the technical [00:04:50] things that he was doing. I wasn’t interested in the veneers that he was doing or what it was. [00:04:55] So I looked into it, applied, and I got an interview at Sheffield [00:05:00] University very quickly. Then I started to look into [00:05:05] it a bit more and realised how difficult it was to actually get a place. So I felt very lucky. Went [00:05:10] for the interview and then I’d never really been outside of of London [00:05:15] at that age and I rocked up in Sheffield and I must.

Payman Langroudi: Have been a culture.

Teki: Shock. [00:05:20] It was a culture shock. And I was at a tram stop and there was this, uh, 78 year old lady [00:05:25] with a shopping trolley, and she turned around to me and she said, hi, doc. [00:05:30] She was like, where are you off to today? And I was like, why [00:05:35] are you talking to me? Why should I? In London? She would be scared of me. She would move. [00:05:40]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Teki: I was going to Sheffield, so the others came in. Now, actually, when I applied, [00:05:45] I thought my dream was to go to study in London because I had a great life, great friends. I wanted to stay at home, [00:05:50] but no, instantly I fell in love with the place and I’m so glad that I did go and study there. [00:05:55] It was a great place to study five years. The dental school is incredible and but [00:06:00] the day that I finished, I knew I was coming home.

Payman Langroudi: I had a similar experience. I mean, I wanted [00:06:05] to go to London and ended up in Cardiff. Best thing that ever happened.

Teki: Beautiful Cardiff.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:06:10] right now I’m trying to persuade my son to leave London for university.

Teki: Best thing you could do, [00:06:15] you.

Payman Langroudi: Know another chapter to your life. Another. Another sort of angle on your life.

Teki: The skills [00:06:20] that you learn. Obviously, you don’t know at the time. Yeah, but now even the girls at work, sometimes I [00:06:25] get frustrated with them. And then I think, actually, they wouldn’t know unless you’ve moved out, unless [00:06:30] you’ve had to do your own washing and, you know, how would you know these things? So university does teach you. [00:06:35] I mean, we all.

Payman Langroudi: What were you like at Sheffield? Was it like your first taste of freedom? [00:06:40] Go a bit crazy or. No. Studying hard.

Teki: What you said in the introduction is probably [00:06:45] a little bit of this. Kind of labels always been carried with me throughout my life. A bit of a mystery. [00:06:50] Oh, I came, I was from Essex. I was the only guy in the year [00:06:55] that had a car. And I think everybody thought, oh, look who’s this kid? I was very being from [00:07:00] Essex. I was very into designer clothes. So I’d go into uni looking like I was not, [00:07:05] not like a typical student. So I think they so I got the label as a maybe [00:07:10] a bit of a rich boy actually, as it, as, as it went on. And by the end of the five [00:07:15] years, I actually worked out that my parents were probably the most, you know, gave me nothing. And I had everything worked [00:07:20] hard for myself. But I appreciate that. But there was that element of Mr.. I didn’t really get [00:07:25] too involved. My best friend’s actually from Sheffield were actually from Sheffield, not from actual [00:07:30] dentists. My very.

Payman Langroudi: Townies.

Teki: Yeah, yeah. I used to play football [00:07:35] with them. I worked in, if anyone knows, Sheffield in the shopping centre called Meadowhall. Yeah. [00:07:40] Um, so I made friends there and it was. It was great for me, you know, the dentists were [00:07:45] were nice. We worked together. But it was enough. Was enough. I needed that, that separation [00:07:50] from me. So I always had that, like, I was I think I was the only person in [00:07:55] our year that didn’t go to the graduation ball. As soon as I was done, I was like, see ya. God, [00:08:00] God. I was like, nice, nice. Knowing you.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a real outsider then.

Teki: Yeah, [00:08:05] I was inside the outside, you know, and now I see, I see, uh, just at Birmingham, I saw [00:08:10] some, uh, people that I studied with. We stay in touch now. We’ve reconnected. It’s lovely.

Payman Langroudi: Do [00:08:15] you think you’ve. I mean, have you have you always had an outsider mentality?

Teki: Yeah, I [00:08:20] think so.

Payman Langroudi: Even in even in Essex.

Teki: Yeah, I think so. Listen, you, you know, I’m from, [00:08:25] you know, my parents, both my parents are from Iraq. Um, were you born here? I was born here. Yeah. I [00:08:30] was actually born in Guildford in Surrey, but I only stayed there for a couple of years. I lived all of my life in Essex, [00:08:35] in a place where there are. There is no one that’s Arabic. Yeah. So you are an outsider, [00:08:40] you know, in my school. Secondary school. Third worst school in Essex at the time [00:08:45] I was there was one black guy and me. [00:08:50]

Payman Langroudi: How did your parents even end up in Essex?

Teki: My dad is a is [00:08:55] a university lecturer. Oh, so he was teaching at the University of Surrey. [00:09:00] Guildford. Chemistry.

Payman Langroudi: Chemistry.

Teki: So he then [00:09:05] moved to the University of Essex, which was um, in [00:09:10] Colchester. Well it still is and, but so he moved to Colchester but it was too much to move [00:09:15] to Colchester. It was um Romford was where we decided to live there. So that’s [00:09:20] where we’ve always just.

Payman Langroudi: Did your parents run away from Iraq the same way my parents ran away from Iran? Yeah. [00:09:25]

Teki: Well, obviously my dad being a chemist. And in that situation. Yeah, Saddam Hussein [00:09:30] wanted him. He wanted him. He wanted him to make him weapons. Yeah. So it was a case where. Yeah, they had to [00:09:35] cut off from all of our family. So we’ve got no family here. It’s literally just [00:09:40] mum, dad, brother, sister And so we grew up with. No. [00:09:45] So it was unconventional actually when you think about it, no cousins, aunties, uncles, grandparents. [00:09:50] When some of my friends, you know, they lose their grandparents, I see it’s such a big thing. It’s like losing [00:09:55] a parent to them.

Payman Langroudi: I feel like, you know, it’s similar for, for for us, [00:10:00] any immigrant. Right. You haven’t got many of your family around. And the [00:10:05] same thing at work. Right. You know, we’ve got people from all over the world working here. Yeah. And [00:10:10] you end up, I find substituting your friends as family [00:10:15] sort of thing.

Teki: That’s that’s exactly what’s happened.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a closeness you get with your friends. Absolutely. [00:10:20] And it might be that they’re in a similar situation. Um, once, once we had a meeting here, [00:10:25] we were talking. It was just a work meeting, and and I don’t know, at the time, I was I [00:10:30] mean, I’ve changed my mind about that now. At the time I was saying we are a big family and [00:10:35] lighten. Yeah, I kind of changed my mind about that now, now, now I’m more into the sort of sports team [00:10:40] angle. You’re exactly like me. But I was. But I was saying to the team, you know, we’re a big family [00:10:45] here who in this room has their parents in the country? [00:10:50] Yeah. And I looked up and everyone was crying, literally, you know.

Teki: And [00:10:55] I think maybe that is, you know, you that happens. But it’s only when you speak to people in similar [00:11:00] situations do you realise actually that’s the thing. Yeah. So for me, yeah, that always has [00:11:05] been that uh, outside of feeling.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely. And almost. You’re comfortable in the Outsider.

Teki: Yeah. [00:11:10] For me, uh, that was where that was where actually I kind of thrived. [00:11:15] And actually, what I was telling you before we went live, before.

Payman Langroudi: We started, you said you want to do something different or.

Teki: Different. [00:11:20] Yeah. You know, so for me, being successful in, for me as a personal [00:11:25] thing is, is doing something good but doing something different.

Payman Langroudi: Are you easily bored? I [00:11:30] mean, why why different.

Teki: In some in from a work point of view, from a career point of view? [00:11:35] I wouldn’t say bored, but I would say I’m constantly looking for the next thing, because I think when you’re younger [00:11:40] you think, and especially if you’ve grown up in a family that doesn’t have a lot of money, [00:11:45] you think that it’s it’s about money. So actually, we’re constantly [00:11:50] climbing a ladder of money and then it gets to a point. I was very lucky as an associate with [00:11:55] what I was earning. It’s not money. So that was a big [00:12:00] moment and it’s taken me years.

Payman Langroudi: Did the did the Instagram kick off before you [00:12:05] even owned a practice like were you Were you?

Teki: Yeah. For me.

Payman Langroudi: Were you successful before the Instagram?

Teki: Relatively [00:12:10] I was I was just I would say I was your absolute bang [00:12:15] average associate. I always wanted more, but I never had the opportunities. [00:12:20]

Payman Langroudi: And sorry to interrupt you. So carry on. So you got the money. Got [00:12:25] money. You realised money isn’t.

Teki: It’s not the.

Payman Langroudi: Be all and end.

Teki: All what drives me. [00:12:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Teki: Because from when we were younger again, growing up in Essex, I had everything. Designer. I [00:12:35] had a car, you know, so there was nothing that I waited for. It was like we go and get it. [00:12:40] My first job was I was 16, I worked in Nando’s. You go and do what you needed to do. So [00:12:45] now, as a 39 year old, what do I go and do? Well, I still go to Nike [00:12:50] Town and buy my trainers that I want to buy. Well, I did that when I was 17, so there’s no difference [00:12:55] really, from that point of view. What it took for me to actually [00:13:00] start to think about what is it that drives me is actually Covid? Only when you stop [00:13:05] do you actually start to think because you were so.

Payman Langroudi: Busy running.

Teki: Right? Yeah. And I was [00:13:10] on this cycle of constant obviously, like many associates are, um, [00:13:15] burnout. Oh, really constant. Yeah. The cycle of burnout. And so I was [00:13:20] working, um. How many days a week? Five. Yeah, I think five. [00:13:25]

Payman Langroudi: Is too much. Five is too much if you’re working at a at a high level. Yeah. Yeah. [00:13:30] Like if you’re doing composite bonding a lot. Yeah. For five days a week. Yeah. It’s too much. [00:13:35] Yeah. It’s too much. The focus for five days. The being lovely to patients. And [00:13:40] you want you want you know you want it to be lovely to patients. Lovely lovely to staff in that five days a week. [00:13:45] And I really don’t think anyone should do it. No.

Teki: And for me, now, that is what I mean. I [00:13:50] do train dentists, but I’m here to there’s, there’s, there’s people [00:13:55] that are way better than me about training the technical aspects. I’m almost giving people my story [00:14:00] and giving them these bits of advice that I wish I knew. It’s as simple as that in [00:14:05] terms of career, in terms of how to things like working four days a week and how [00:14:10] it is with patients and how to balance these things.

Payman Langroudi: Um, people [00:14:15] do young dentists come commonly ask you, do [00:14:20] they want to be you? Is that is that is that what they’re asking? Um, I.

Teki: Think a few years ago, [00:14:25] yes. Um, I think there was less, um, of us on [00:14:30] Instagram when it first started. We’re talking 2016. And I [00:14:35] remember it was just me and Rona. She was the first dentist that I [00:14:40] remember thinking, is there anyone else on Instagram? And that was it. But [00:14:45] now it’s different. And actually, in terms of activity, I’m [00:14:50] really not active when it comes to Instagram. Again, a bit bored of it. Like [00:14:55] owning a practice. It’s a bit same same. So unless it’s something [00:15:00] different, unless it’s something that’s going to challenge me, I’d rather not. I [00:15:05] wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for Instagram, but that’s very different to. [00:15:10]

Payman Langroudi: Enjoying it, right? I mean, enjoying it. I don’t like it. I don’t like social media.

Teki: And [00:15:15] the nugget, the piece of information that I say pretty much every day to every dentist [00:15:20] therapist that I’m training to the staff, you have to enjoy what you do. You [00:15:25] will never get good at what you do if you don’t enjoy it. So if you’re not enjoying it, [00:15:30] that’s what we need to work on. And if you don’t enjoy it, go and do another job. But you do enjoy [00:15:35] it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But then is your advice to young dentists. Find out what you enjoy first and then, [00:15:40] you know, because I give opposite advice. You you know, I say get really good at something [00:15:45] and you will enjoy that thing. You can.

Teki: Do it. You can do it either or. Absolutely. Because sometimes. [00:15:50] But I think that sometimes what happens in your career, you will accidentally fall into a practice. [00:15:55] For example, if you work with a great, fantastic implant dentist. Yeah, yeah, naturally [00:16:00] you’re going to have a go at it. Naturally. That’s how you then it will flow. You know, I don’t think [00:16:05] anyone should sort of sit there, scratch their head. I want to do. Although, no, [00:16:10] obviously that’s not the way to go about it. It definitely is a journey. But you can do it either or. But the end result [00:16:15] is you enjoy it. A lot of people don’t know. I did a year long [00:16:20] implant course early on in my career. How many [00:16:25] implants did I place? Zero. I did it spent, I think at the time, [00:16:30] ten £12,000 doing it. And then at the practice that I was at, my, [00:16:35] uh, boss was asking me to charge the same as what a specialist [00:16:40] that we used to refer to was charging. I mean, who’s going to do that? So it was completely [00:16:45] blocked, whereas if it had a similar experience [00:16:50] with ortho with composite bonding. I went to go and work for Mohsen [00:16:55] at Dream Smile and he gave me the opportunity there. He was quite chilled. All right, you [00:17:00] do what you want to do. You know, my Instagram is actually ridiculed by places that I worked at before. [00:17:05] He was a little bit like, okay, he didn’t really get it. He was like, but as [00:17:10] long as you’re in that room and as long as you make enough loads of money, do what you want to do. So he gave me the platform. [00:17:15] Yeah. So that’s what I say to these young dentist therapists. [00:17:20] You do need to be in the right environment. And I get it, I get it. [00:17:25] But you need to stay because you need to see how good you are. But [00:17:30] I have moved in my career. And guess what? The patients will come. Whereas [00:17:35] before, if you left a job, you’re leaving behind all of your data.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Teki: But [00:17:40] I can say, you know, I still see now patients that I did ten years ago. [00:17:45] So I’ve still got that. So you do need to put yourself in the right environment. Having a [00:17:50] practice for me was only for that reason. It was not about money. [00:17:55] It wasn’t about anything. It was just purely about being able to work in an environment [00:18:00] that I could work four days a week, that I could control how long I want my appointments, [00:18:05] I could set the prices.

Payman Langroudi: I think a lot of people start a practice for control. [00:18:10] Mhm. And it’s surprising that little things that can piss you off as an [00:18:15] associate where and I remember being an associate where I was giving my all. [00:18:20] Yeah. To the, to the business. Not even just to my patients. I was representing the business. [00:18:25] If a nurse said something I would always take the side of the principal. Absolutely. Always [00:18:30] try and get.

Teki: And then that was me.

Payman Langroudi: And then maybe the principal did [00:18:35] something or said something small. Small. And because I was a [00:18:40] young, sensitive associate, I was like, I’m giving you my all. And, you know, I talked [00:18:45] to other people who started practices or made the jump, made the leap to start because [00:18:50] a lot of dentists do start practising. But I asked that question of what was it tends to be a control [00:18:55] question.

Teki: Yeah. And I think, listen, was it.

Payman Langroudi: Something in your head about this [00:19:00] vision of the particular practice that you wanted that was the main driver, [00:19:05] or was it the sort of work life balance, work work life balance.

Teki: For me, 100%. In fact, [00:19:10] I said to Mohsen, I said, let’s go dream small. Number two. Oh, really? In Essex [00:19:15] really? And he said no. So I was more than happy to be an associate [00:19:20] because actually at the time, I thought I couldn’t do it because [00:19:25] I’d been put down in the past by my bosses. Funny story actually is [00:19:30] relevant now because the football’s on. So maybe ten years ago it’s the World Cup. Everyone in the country [00:19:35] is in Hyde Park and England are doing really well. And I’m working at I tried to get into [00:19:40] private practice and build a list. I’ve got three patients a day. I [00:19:45] have a elderly patient who’s coming in at maybe 5:00. I’ve got, you know, patient first [00:19:50] thing, one at lunch, one at the last day. England are playing quarter finals, semi-finals. And anyone that knows me knows [00:19:55] how obsessed I am with football. I asked the reception team to move the patient, [00:20:00] and I knew that my boss at the time would be a bit annoyed. He was a bit grumpy, [00:20:05] but I didn’t think that he would go in like he did. That [00:20:10] tipped him over the edge, and one of the things that he said to me was, you [00:20:15] see, that’s why you’ll never have your own practice because of the way you are as a person. [00:20:20]

Payman Langroudi: And that became a major driver for you. Wow.

Teki: For me, [00:20:25] actually, it didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Oh it didn’t.

Teki: What? That did, I believed him. [00:20:30]

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Dented your confidence. To the point.

Teki: Where I said to Mohsen, you buy another practice, [00:20:35] I.

Payman Langroudi: See.

Teki: I’ll be your number two. There was no choice. I couldn’t be anybody’s [00:20:40] number two anymore.

Payman Langroudi: So you actively went looking [00:20:45] or did something fall in your lap? How did the first techie start? Yeah.

Teki: It [00:20:50] was. It was an interesting one. I called, um, I think it was Frank Taylor at the time [00:20:55] that I called, and I said, this is a little bit different, but I’m looking for a practice [00:21:00] that doesn’t have any patients because I’ve got patients. The [00:21:05] problem that I had was at the time, you couldn’t get the license easily for a premises. [00:21:10] It needed a D1 license.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Which was this?

Teki: Sorry. This was so this [00:21:15] must have been 2019. Is it before Covid? So I was looking for premises [00:21:20] and I applied for change of use at a property in Essex. They [00:21:25] said no the council. So it was basically you have to buy an existing. [00:21:30] But I didn’t want any goodwill.

Payman Langroudi: You want to pay for goodwill.

Teki: Do you want to pay for goodwill because. [00:21:35] Well, I couldn’t actually, you know, treat them because they might be wanting root canals, which I hadn’t [00:21:40] been doing for a few years.

Payman Langroudi: So had you already at this point, you were focussed in on Invisalign [00:21:45] and composite bonding mainly.

Teki: Yeah, yeah. For me, I was exclusively probably [00:21:50] for about five years just doing aligners as [00:21:55] an associate.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, interesting.

Teki: And it was that was that was me. It was [00:22:00] just my diary was just Invisalign and composite bonding. So [00:22:05] that’s what the practice had to be because I already had the patients. Now they had already [00:22:10] come from either Instagram, so they were going to follow or they’d come with me from before. So [00:22:15] it was it was a it was a tricky situation because now I had to [00:22:20] be able to deal with them and there was a lot of them. So [00:22:25] I found this practice that luckily was perfect for [00:22:30] what I needed the location a A lot of people say, oh is it? Did you buy the practice [00:22:35] because it’s close to Arsenal? Because they know, obviously, how obsessed I am? No, but [00:22:40] it was just there. It was two surgeries. It was ready, hardly had any patients. [00:22:45] And that was that.

Payman Langroudi: Did you know that part of London? Well, by this time, [00:22:50] where did you live before?

Teki: Just all Essex. It’s for me. I’ve only lived.

Payman Langroudi: You were living in [00:22:55] Essex with this. All all right?

Teki: Live it. All I’ve ever done is either lived in Essex. Five years in Sheffield, [00:23:00] back to Essex. That’s me.

Payman Langroudi: And you still live in Essex now?

Teki: And I still live in Essex.

Payman Langroudi: Commute to Islington. [00:23:05] Yeah. Okay.

Teki: And that’s actually another one of the reasons that actually I’m [00:23:10] not finding the time to be able to do the other things that I want to do in the career [00:23:15] and in life is commuting. You know, we were just talking about it before. It’s a pain when you [00:23:20] add it up in in a week, it’s a lot, you know, what can you do in that time? [00:23:25] And one thing about me is I’m not shy of making bold decisions. [00:23:30] So, you know, when people are surprised, they might hear about a decision that I’ve [00:23:35] made as a rumour, maybe. And then they’re like, no, surely not. And then they think, [00:23:40] yeah, actually, because I’m not scared to do that. It might be slightly against what other people are doing [00:23:45] now, but that’s fine as long as I’m happy with that decision. That’s where we are today. [00:23:50]

Payman Langroudi: What surprised you the most about business ownership? Like what were you most [00:23:55] not prepared for?

Teki: Probably the same thing that every single business owner is going [00:24:00] to tell you. I was that guy when I worked for somebody, whether I worked in Nando’s [00:24:05] or whether I worked for Mohsin at Dream Smile, I treated it like it was my [00:24:10] practice. You either got it or you don’t. Once, [00:24:15] maybe a year ago, we were having a staff meeting. We were in a rush. We needed to get some food, so I ordered subway. [00:24:20] I haven’t ordered subway for years. Subway came and [00:24:25] I opened up the the sandwich, and then I kind of rewrapped [00:24:30] it, and I got all the stuff. And I said to him, look at this. It was [00:24:35] wrapped to perfection. There was a little triangle sticker inside. All the [00:24:40] tomatoes were all laid out perfect, like you see on an advert. Yeah. Now, normally when you [00:24:45] go to subway or you go to some, what do they do? Shove it all in, squash it down. Off you go. [00:24:50] And I said to him, look at this person in subway. They’re going places in life because [00:24:55] look at the attention to detail. And it reminded me when I was [00:25:00] working in Nando’s I used to be bothered. Mhm. You’re either bothered [00:25:05] or you’re not. And that is one thing that very, very quickly, when I have somebody to work for [00:25:10] me, I realised they’re either bothered or they’re not. If they’re bothered you can work with [00:25:15] them if they’re not. Now obviously when you’ve got a bigger [00:25:20] business and this is been my biggest challenge, is you can have a small team that are bothered. Yeah, [00:25:25] okay. Now try and get yourself a big team that’s bothered. Where are we going with all [00:25:30] this. Can you have quality and quantity? For [00:25:35] me it depends what your definition of quality is. What’s your [00:25:40] definition. Yeah. For me and and the definition of quality is a personal definition. [00:25:45] Yeah. For me I can say that I can’t have [00:25:50] more than a practice, more than one practice [00:25:55] that’s bigger than four surgeries and still maintain the quality that I want to give [00:26:00] to my patients.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not up to it. Yeah.

Teki: I it’s either [00:26:05] I’m not up to it, or I can’t find the people that are going to be able to match the [00:26:10] standards that I want for them to give to my patients.

Payman Langroudi: But do you accept? It’s possible, but you’re [00:26:15] just not up to it.

Teki: It’s possible. Yeah, but you have to know your own limitations. [00:26:20] At what module did I go to? Dental school, and what year or what? [00:26:25] What lecture did they give you on how to run a business?

Payman Langroudi: I’m with you, dude. I’m with you. Look at enlightened. [00:26:30] There’s many things I can’t do. Yeah, yeah. Lucky for me, I’ve got a co-founder. [00:26:35] Yeah, yeah. And he’s got very opposite skills to me. But if you walk into, [00:26:40] uh, Louis Vuitton in, uh, Rio de Janeiro, the standard will be the same [00:26:45] as if you walk into it in Bombay. Absolutely. And they’ve pulled it off, you know, they now okay [00:26:50] buying it, buying a handbag is not the same as having composite. But I get that, I get that. And [00:26:55] by the way, by the way there’s no issue with wanting one perfect place. Yeah, yeah. You know, I’ve had people in [00:27:00] this room get fantastically successful in everywhere, and they focus on one perfect [00:27:05] place. But, you know, what would be interesting is when you train people. [00:27:10] Yeah. Other dentists. Mhm. What. No one’s going to be you. Right. Because [00:27:15] you’re you. Yeah. But what is it. What are the, what are the six points. What are, what are [00:27:20] the tomatoes lining up on the subway sub and the folding equivalents [00:27:25] in dentistry. Like, is it teachable to have e.q. [00:27:30] Because I feel like you’ve got a lot of EQ.

Teki: Absolutely. I think it’s it’s pretty much we’ve touched on [00:27:35] those. It’s you’ve got to enjoy things. Yeah. You’ve got to enjoy it. But you’re right. [00:27:40]

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got to pick the right dentist. I get that right attitude you got. But then after that have you managed to sort of [00:27:45] even in that for surgery place, have you managed to have like touch points say look A, [00:27:50] B, C and D need to happen. Yes, absolutely. Consultation. Oh I’ve.

Teki: Written handbooks. [00:27:55]

Payman Langroudi: Have you, have you, have you.

Teki: But who’s going to implement them. Well that’s another team. Yeah [00:28:00] yeah yeah. You know we’re a business here. And at the end of the day, like how many people can you fit into [00:28:05] a space. So I expanded. It was two surgeries and [00:28:10] I. What you’re thinking and which is what people told me we needed the space. [00:28:15] Okay. So fine. We got the space so that we could carry. We could have offices so that we could have [00:28:20] this kind of level of operations. But then if you’ve got more space, you’ve got more overheads. [00:28:25] You need to fill those surgeries up. All you’re going to do then is to dilute the [00:28:30] quality, potentially, if you don’t find the right person. All of it is [00:28:35] leading. To what? For me? Distraction. It’s distracting [00:28:40] me from doing what I’m doing now. What I teach the younger guys that [00:28:45] ask me for advice is you’re is is not to think that the [00:28:50] grass is greener. If somebody says to me, you know, but I need a practice. No you don’t. [00:28:55] I was happy as an associate. And it’s a very, very good thing to be an associate. [00:29:00]

Payman Langroudi: Agreed.

Teki: Don’t be. And I say to them, don’t be [00:29:05] in a relationship and want to be single. And don’t be single. Wishing that you were in a relationship. [00:29:10] When you’re single, enjoy it. When you’re in a relationship, be in the relationship. Same [00:29:15] thing with associate and owning a practice. Enjoy it to the max. So [00:29:20] that’s the first thing I sit down with, with whoever it is that we’re talking to, and we go through their career [00:29:25] and how they’re doing things, but it’s about them being them. That’s [00:29:30] the power. That’s exactly what you said. Too many dentists. That’s the problem [00:29:35] with social media are trying to copy. You’re right. You can’t be me. Is [00:29:40] there space? Of course there is. That’s why people buy fake handbags. There’s nothing wrong with that. [00:29:45] But you can’t then pretend there’s the problem. The problem is, is when you go to your friends [00:29:50] and say that it’s real. No. Own it. If you. If you think it’s silly to spend that [00:29:55] much money on it. And it’s the same thing with with being a boo. Oh, but I [00:30:00] can’t do what you do. I can’t do people that know me.

Teki: I’m very shy. When’s [00:30:05] the last time that you saw me pick up the phone and say, hi, everyone. Welcome to Tuesday. Guess what I’m [00:30:10] doing today? I’m coming to do a podcast with no. People won’t know about it until it’s actually [00:30:15] been released, but that’s okay because that’s me and it’s authentic. [00:30:20] Yeah. If I was like that and then and I always say to them, I say to them, look, whatever you are [00:30:25] on social media, you have to make sure that what that patient sees [00:30:30] is the important thing. The patients is what they see. If they see me being [00:30:35] funny and having a sense of humour and being loud, and then they walk in after [00:30:40] waiting a year, travelling wherever and then realising that actually I’m quite dry and [00:30:45] quiet, well, then they’re going to think, well, what else isn’t real? Actually, maybe those photos [00:30:50] are edited. Maybe that composite isn’t real. So you’re breaking that chain of authenticity. [00:30:55] It’s about being exactly what you said, you being you and [00:31:00] capturing that and not being same, same. Be a bit different. That’s that’s the power of it. [00:31:05]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move on to your skill sets. Skill set. Very interesting. [00:31:10] I’d say you’ve got at least at least 3 or 4 superpowers, right? Um, [00:31:15] and I’m going to ask. It’s a bit of an unfair question I’ve been asking, but [00:31:20] I like it quite a lot. It’s it’s around sort of aha moment. Like if you had to put it down [00:31:25] to one moment, aha it just for you as the crux and I’d like [00:31:30] to go into social media um Invisalign or aligner treatment, composite [00:31:35] bonding. What comes to mind when I say what was the moment when something clicked in your head and said, [00:31:40] oh, I get that. Now I understand what what’s the key thing in that?

Teki: Yeah, I think [00:31:45] two things. One of them is like one of them’s a little bit deeper. The more like one is actually [00:31:50] a good bit of advice for anybody that’s listening. If they don’t know, trust the experts. Um, [00:31:55] I think just just because we have a five year degree, just [00:32:00] because we have been to university, just because we are potentially high earners in society, doesn’t [00:32:05] mean that we know everything. How many dentists think they’re the best at marketing? Yeah. How many [00:32:10] dentists think they’re the best at being a businessman when they’re not? Yeah. [00:32:15] And that for me, is probably one of my biggest strengths, is that [00:32:20] I stay. Once I did a podcast, actually, the. It was Sandeep, my smile. [00:32:25] Oh, you did the podcast. And he said one thing about you, he was like, you’re always in your own lane. [00:32:30] And I was like, yeah, I know that. I can only do this and this, [00:32:35] and I do it really well. Is there a one trick pony? Yeah. That’s me.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:32:40] trust the expert. But in terms of social media, what was what was it that and what is it that made [00:32:45] you grow so quickly. Or what’s an aha bit of.

Teki: Well you see it’s linked to that [00:32:50] because when with social media some people know the story, some people don’t. But [00:32:55] with social media that was accidental because actually as a as a, as an individual, I don’t have social media [00:33:00] on a personal level. So I had at the time that I was starting [00:33:05] to do a line of treatment, composite treatment. I went through a situation [00:33:10] where I was working in a practice that wasn’t really supportive. It was a tricky one to work [00:33:15] in, but I had some patients that really believed in me. So what they so what they did [00:33:20] essentially is they took it for me and ran away with it.

Payman Langroudi: What? They started [00:33:25] your page. That’s it.

Teki: So the patient saw what I was doing. And then the sad part of it is [00:33:30] that at the time, I was diagnosed with cancer.

Payman Langroudi: Well. [00:33:35]

Teki: So that’s a key thing here. And I always say to [00:33:40] the, you know, it doesn’t have to be that deep. It can be burnout, it can be an illness, it can be something. [00:33:45] But don’t let that be the driving force. Don’t let rock bottom be there. Try and get there just before it gets [00:33:50] really bad. But then when I was diagnosed with that, obviously my [00:33:55] mind was elsewhere. The friends that I had at the time were [00:34:00] having a problem. The patients wanted to come to see me, but they [00:34:05] were calling the practice saying we want to go and see teki. And the practice was saying, oh, well, [00:34:10] you can’t see Turkey because he’s busy, he’s fully booked, he’s not well, whatever, but you can see his boss. So [00:34:15] then it was getting back round to me to be like, they don’t want to see anyone else. They want to see you. It’s [00:34:20] a fair point. So I said, look, what can I do? What [00:34:25] can I do? One day I’ll have my own place. But right now this is just a situation. And at the minute I’ve [00:34:30] got bigger things to worry about. Right. They said, send me them pictures. The ones you [00:34:35] know. Remember them before and after pictures with the black background. And I remember showing them a few pictures. [00:34:40] There was no Instagram. I just had them on my camera. They took it away and [00:34:45] they said, right, we’ve sorted it. We’ve started you an Instagram page. [00:34:50] And at the time, obviously I thought, okay, whatever, not that important, [00:34:55] by the way. What have you called it? They said teeth by Teki. And [00:35:00] I said no way.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t like it.

Teki: Sounds cheesy now. [00:35:05] Kate, who was one of the girls? There was two. Two of my friends. One of them’s Kate, who’s actually now married to Rio Ferdinand. [00:35:10] She was quite she had a she was doing The Only Way Is Essex. So she was [00:35:15] using Instagram really well when it was first started. And then my other friend Michaela, [00:35:20] so they together came along and put this together for me. And I remember Kate [00:35:25] saying to me, I know, Instagram, you don’t trust [00:35:30] the experts. It was catchy. And then here we are [00:35:35] years later. Now, if I insisted on my idea at the time, I wouldn’t [00:35:40] have done it and b I would have called it something I don’t know, whatever I thought was good. [00:35:45] But they’re the experts and they were the experts at the time. So there is that that was a very and that lesson [00:35:50] has always stayed with me.

Payman Langroudi: Bounding is a funny thing because, you know, in [00:35:55] social social’s about people. So teeth by teki. It’s a perfect right. [00:36:00] But but then if you were going to open a chain of dental practices, I think it would be difficult [00:36:05] because people will want teki all the time, right? Yeah. It’s a funny thing. Do you want to talk about cancer? [00:36:10]

Teki: Yeah. Why not? I, um, it was a. [00:36:15] Maybe. I mean, you shouldn’t you shouldn’t say that you needed to go [00:36:20] through it, but it was definitely. If I didn’t if it didn’t happen to me, I wouldn’t be here. Because in a nutshell, [00:36:25] what it gives you is that. Fuck it. What’s the worst that’s going to happen?

Payman Langroudi: Hardens [00:36:30] you up. What does me.

Teki: Up? I was soft. You you didn’t get softer than me. [00:36:35] People pleaser. I was the definition of a people pleaser. Really?

Payman Langroudi: That was me. But [00:36:40] what did it mean to you? Did you have to take lots of time off? Were you worried you’re going to die? What was it for me? [00:36:45]

Teki: I think for me, what it what it it was a shock. [00:36:50] You feel that you’re invincible. You know, you’re young. At the time, I don’t know what I was 20, late 20s. You’re [00:36:55] in your prime. You’ve only just died to make some money. You’re. You’ve got over university. [00:37:00] You’ve got a house. You know, you’ve kind of got all that. But there was just something wrong. And [00:37:05] actually, I mean, so it was a rare type of skin cancer [00:37:10] that I had, which is not related to sunlight exposure. My [00:37:15] treatment was at the Royal Marsden. I mean, they’re incredible. I wouldn’t obviously wouldn’t be here. [00:37:20] I still have to go for sort of regular checks. But I kept on asking the consultant. [00:37:25]

Payman Langroudi: Why? Why did it happen?

Teki: I’m not. They kept on saying to me, you’re not. [00:37:30] There’s no history. You’re not the right skin type, wrong age, [00:37:35] not an area that gets exposed to sunlight. Why? For [00:37:40] me, the more I read into it, the more I asked about it, the more I did whatever I did my [00:37:45] personal research, it led me to one thing and one thing only trauma.

Payman Langroudi: Stress. [00:37:50]

Teki: Some people internalise things. Yeah, [00:37:55] and I do. And I was having, you know, the standard one is problems with your stomach. Oh, I had [00:38:00] it all. Cameras this way, cameras that way. Everything. But [00:38:05] it can also do more. Sure. And I personally believe [00:38:10] now if it wasn’t for the trauma and the stress that I was going through and the people pleasing, [00:38:15] why would I get it? Never smoked. No. No nothing. [00:38:20] No alcohol, no smoking. Like how does this work in operation? [00:38:25]

Payman Langroudi: Sorry. You have an operation. You had an.

Teki: Operation? I had a few operations. [00:38:30]

Payman Langroudi: Chemotherapy, radiotherapy and chemotherapy.

Teki: Now they. I [00:38:35] think that bit will just leave. Yeah. Leave it alone. Yeah. A little bit too much.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:38:40] long were you off for?

Teki: Um, I [00:38:45] still struggled into work. I [00:38:50] just, I think for me, the biggest thing at the time, which is crazy. Now, looking back [00:38:55] at it, I thought I was going to lose my job.

Payman Langroudi: With that focussed on your job. [00:39:00]

Teki: That shows how bothered I was. Mhm. And it’s so strange because [00:39:05] now when something happens at the practice, what, what the girls or the staff [00:39:10] might say oh my God this happened. And they think that it’s really a big deal. I say oh [00:39:15] they’re like you’re so not bothered. Of course I’m not bothered. [00:39:20]

Payman Langroudi: You’ve been through something. You’ve been through the war. The little. [00:39:25] The little battle doesn’t.

Teki: There was something that was bigger than that. That’s a little bit why [00:39:30] I paused after I got better and recovered. [00:39:35] I fell into depression. It’s common, though.

Payman Langroudi: Common because, [00:39:40] you know, when people go through medical problems, they [00:39:45] to just to survive that moment, you have to hold it together.

Teki: There was a lot going [00:39:50] on. Yeah, I had issues with my family. I had problems at work. [00:39:55] Um, I had there was just [00:40:00] a lot going on. And you’re you’re you’re you’re fighting your way through it [00:40:05] and you put on that face some of my patients, after I told them afterwards, they were like, oh my God, I didn’t [00:40:10] even realise. Yeah, you’re really good at putting a face on, but it’s going to come out at some [00:40:15] point. So I crashed.

Payman Langroudi: How did that how did that sort of manifest? Would [00:40:20] you not want to get out of bed in the morning.

Teki: Yeah, we’re talking severe. We’re talking. I couldn’t get out [00:40:25] of bed without medication. And I had to work [00:40:30] limited hours. I had Had no money. Yeah. [00:40:35] Like, where else can I say it was? It was rock bottom from every single [00:40:40] point of view. What got me out of it, friends, [00:40:45] that I didn’t necessarily think would be the friends that would get me out of it.

Payman Langroudi: They [00:40:50] say that, and they say you find out who your real friends are, and I did.

Teki: Yeah, [00:40:55] I did. And here’s one. My patience. So [00:41:00] when people are like, oh, you know, I’m indebted to. Listen, I wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for Instagram. [00:41:05] Whoever it was that created it most in that dream. Smile big part of my career gave [00:41:10] me a platform, allowed me to be that associate that did what I did. Invisalign. [00:41:15] Haven’t used Invisalign for over two years. I will never [00:41:20] forget what they did, but in terms of who I owe [00:41:25] my career to and why I’m here now, and why I live the life that I do and [00:41:30] I’m healthy. It’s the constant backing of my patients. What [00:41:35] can I say? Well, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know what we said before. When you haven’t got family [00:41:40] around, you substitute.

Teki: They are.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s interesting you’re saying your patients because, you know, there’s [00:41:45] there’s a, there’s a, there’s a link between dentist and patient that can be very [00:41:50] strong. Right. Yeah.

Teki: And our patient base is, you [00:41:55] know, we’ve got, we’ve got, we’ve got, you know, between 20 and 40 their [00:42:00] recommendations. They’ve come through social media. They’re friends of friends. You know. They are they’re [00:42:05] great people. They’re great patients. And they’re all going through similar things in life. Um, [00:42:10] so yeah, they they are what make the place. So everything that I do now [00:42:15] from a work point of view. Before I used to do [00:42:20] too much for the team and I used to focus. I used to base it on. Right. [00:42:25] What do my team want? What does the associate need? What does the nurses need? Actually, now. No, I got that [00:42:30] wrong. You base it around your patients.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:42:35] Yeah, of course, of course.

Teki: But it’s back to the people pleasing now.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:42:40] mad that I said I started out this podcast by saying I’m watching you from afar. [00:42:45] Yeah, I’m watching you from afar. I heard in my head. But tastically happy, [00:42:50] successful career. You know what? It’s even though we all [00:42:55] know no career is like that. No. Life is without bumps. Yeah you do sometimes [00:43:00] get that feeling. When I looked at you, I thought, this kid is blessed, you know? Blessed. Yeah. Not [00:43:05] not lucky. Yeah. Not lucky. Then lucky is not enough. Yeah. To get, [00:43:10] like, sustained success. Yeah, yeah. But blessed, you know that he’s good [00:43:15] at what he does. He’s landed in the right places. And now you told me this story and and [00:43:20] you know, it’s important. It’s important to remember that.

Teki: It’s a it’s a struggle. [00:43:25] And for those that know that have had any of those two medical conditions, they [00:43:30] don’t really just go, you never really cured. You know, you’re constantly worried. You’re always [00:43:35] scared. Yeah. There’s, there’s there’s always that that, that that chance that things [00:43:40] you have to appreciate your body. But for me, more importantly. So a lot of people [00:43:45] what do they do. Okay. Right. I’m going to be healthy. I’m going to go to the gym. I’m going to eat well after they’ve [00:43:50] had a heart attack or whatever they do. For me, it’s simple. I need [00:43:55] to eliminate the stress, the trauma, the people pleasing. That [00:44:00] is my key to success as a person and as a clinician. As a businessman, [00:44:05] I have to do that. It’s difficult, very, very difficult. You’ve got to say no. [00:44:10] You’ve got to make some brave decisions. But if anybody wants [00:44:15] any proof of that and how it can go right, everything that I’ve done that’s gone [00:44:20] right in my career is when I’ve gone against what people say. You’ve [00:44:25] got to trust your gut.

Payman Langroudi: And you think that these, this stuff that’s [00:44:30] happened to you is now informing your decisions going forward in a way that you [00:44:35] wouldn’t have done. Like, for instance, you could have just gone into the next [00:44:40] practice, next practice, next practice. But you’re telling me that doesn’t interest you?

Teki: You know why? I mean, listen, it’s a [00:44:45] silly reason. I am quite artistic, I love tattoos, the main reason I have the tattoos, I don’t [00:44:50] really mean too much to anybody else. They’re a reminder for me this. And if you’ve got to put it on your [00:44:55] body to remind yourself of what you went through and so that it helps your decision making [00:45:00] in the future, do what you need to do. My mum hates them, but that’s what they’re there for.

Payman Langroudi: Really. [00:45:05]

Teki: After you’ve got to stay like that, it’s a slippery slope. [00:45:10] And I was lucky enough to escape before. Blessed. Don’t [00:45:15] make that mistake again.

Payman Langroudi: When you look back [00:45:20] and think. What was my hardest day? What comes to mind? [00:45:25]

Teki: I was an associate, probably 2 or 3 years qualified, [00:45:30] probably quite standard story, unfortunately, but at the time I [00:45:35] felt like I was the only one in the world and it literally got [00:45:40] me. I was working for an old lady dentist and [00:45:45] she she was close to retiring. She wanted to sell me the practice. [00:45:50] Very old school. We’re talking paper notes. We’re talking, you know, you’re [00:45:55] going back in time. And I went in there. I worked a day, a week just [00:46:00] to cover for her when she would go on her cruises, etc.. I [00:46:05] was popular there, you know, the patients saw a fresh approach. They saw something different. Then [00:46:10] all of a sudden, she changed their mind. So decided [00:46:15] that she wasn’t going to sell me for whatever reason. My problem at all. And [00:46:20] therefore I left. And we all know what happens when you leave a practice. She [00:46:25] didn’t give me my money. She didn’t pay you and pay me. What was the reason [00:46:30] she said that? What I’d been. I’d called it, I was [00:46:35] called I. I’d caused a mess, ruined people’s teeth, and she’d have to go [00:46:40] back in there, redo everybody’s treatment that I’d done.

Payman Langroudi: Which [00:46:45] amount of money didn’t she pay the retainer? Sort of money and a month’s wages as well?

Teki: Yeah, she was very, [00:46:50] very like she used to pay me by cheque. Um, so you get what we’re talking here. There wasn’t [00:46:55] really no contract. Anything like that.

Payman Langroudi: Happens all the time, doesn’t.

Teki: It? Happens.

Payman Langroudi: So. [00:47:00] Okay, what happened anyway?

Teki: She said you pay me the money. Yeah. Which was equated [00:47:05] to something like 12, £15,000. If you don’t, I’m going to whistle blow. [00:47:10] I’m going to the GDC and telling them how you have [00:47:15] done all this. Do you think.

Payman Langroudi: She believed it?

Teki: Yeah, she [00:47:20] believed it. I think when people lies, it gets to a point where they believe it. And [00:47:25] you have people around you that are going to confirm that, and they’re going to [00:47:30] come and they’re going to go. Yeah. Exactly. That it was it was what was it?

Payman Langroudi: What was it that you’d done that made [00:47:35] her think that.

Teki: The main thing, the main thing was the use of gizzy. So [00:47:40] obviously I come from a situation where you worked on the NHS. I don’t know what it’s like now, [00:47:45] but you could stabilise. For example, you’ve got a pregnant lady, okay? You’ve got pregnant lady. [00:47:50] Big carriers cavity. What do you put in there? You’ve got amalgam. Can’t carries. [00:47:55] You can’t because their oral hygiene is not satisfactory. So what do you do. You put GRC, [00:48:00] you stabilise. This is Rosen modified GRC. I don’t know if they still got it now Rosen modified. [00:48:05] You take your three udas. It was at the time. And then when she’s. And [00:48:10] that’s it She considered that me putting temporary fillings in to [00:48:15] people’s mouths. That was the main point. We’re talking two years [00:48:20] of not sleeping well and battered my confidence. Any [00:48:25] confidence that I had as a dentist was gone. I was I was shot to pieces and [00:48:30] it went through Dental Dental protection was who I was, who I had my indemnity with at the [00:48:35] time. There was nothing. They just said, this is purely a [00:48:40] young associate versus somebody that’s about to retire.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:48:45] for two years it went back and forth. And in the end.

Teki: Because because what would happen. And you get this with patients. [00:48:50] You know, when you get an Aggie patient, you reply to them in to within a day, within [00:48:55] an hour. Quick quick quick quick. Yeah. And then if you ever had it where they take three weeks to reply? Yeah. [00:49:00] But that’s all right because they’re not held accountable by the same thing. And it’s exactly [00:49:05] the same thing in her situation. And it is an issue that I had with the profession. I [00:49:10] felt very, very let down. Okay. So now that we [00:49:15] know that she was lying, and now that we know that she put me through all of this, shouldn’t [00:49:20] she go to the GDC?

Payman Langroudi: But I thought you said she believed it.

Teki: She believed it. [00:49:25]

Payman Langroudi: She wasn’t lying as far as she was concerned.

Teki: But when it was found. But then when it was incorrect. [00:49:30] But then when it was taken to the experts. Yeah. Now what? Anyway, [00:49:35] listen, whatever, whatever happened, happened. It was a tough, tough lesson. And [00:49:40] you go from that, then you you don’t even know if you want to be a dentist. Mhm. [00:49:45] Now when there’s people that leave the career it’s quite sad. Very very sad. That [00:49:50] was it could have been me.

Payman Langroudi: I think that when you feel like you’re doing [00:49:55] your best and then someone either a patient or in fact it’s even worse when it’s a dentist [00:50:00] or a colleague suggests that you were somehow not doing that. Yeah. [00:50:05] And it’s a it’s a horrible feeling. I had it once with a patient where [00:50:10] I felt like I was in my very best first patient, and a letter came in and [00:50:15] it kind of made out that. And it’s weird, man, because I gave up dentistry 13 [00:50:20] years ago. Yeah, it’s I still think about that letter. Yeah.

Teki: And [00:50:25] that’s not such a bad thing. You care. You know, if you care about something, then obviously [00:50:30] it’s going to upset you and obviously you’re going to think about it. But there is a thing about [00:50:35] caring too much. Yeah. And all of this was contributing to my trauma. [00:50:40]

Payman Langroudi: Did you know you were a sinus head and had [00:50:45] anxiety or. No. Was it even you yourself didn’t know you were burying?

Teki: It was not a thing. People a lot of people [00:50:50] think I’m younger than I am. I’m 39. So when I was growing up and when I was in my 20s, there [00:50:55] was no such thing. You know, I grew up, all of my friends were were male. We [00:51:00] played football together growing up with a family that’s, you know, Arabic. There’s [00:51:05] no such thing. There is no such even probably to this day. If you ask my parents.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right, you’re right. [00:51:10] It’s either in our cultures, they say either you’re crazy or not. Yeah, and [00:51:15] those are the two positions. Yeah.

Teki: That was that was it. Yeah. And that’s and [00:51:20] that’s that’s that’s sad. But listen, if what I’ve been through is going to help one person to be like, [00:51:25] actually, you know what? I’m not crazy. They need to know, you know, anybody that’s listening to [00:51:30] this younger, younger guys, especially girls, guys and girls, it [00:51:35] doesn’t happen like no one gets successful. No one [00:51:40] gets good at anything, especially in a career in dentistry. Without going through these things, [00:51:45] it’s just not going to happen. So if that helps them and gives [00:51:50] them a bit of confidence or whatever they’re going through right now, they might be going through a case right now with the GDC, you [00:51:55] know, Touchwood, I’ve never had that, but I can only imagine what that’s [00:52:00] like because I know what I went through with the potential of it going that far. The sleepless nights [00:52:05] and but all I would say is, is, is look for those [00:52:10] people that are truly going to be there for you. And it might not be the people that you think. [00:52:15] For me, it wasn’t my parents. I’ve got a good relationship with my parents now, but I’ll tell [00:52:20] you what, it wasn’t them that got me out of this.

Payman Langroudi: What do you think that was? They didn’t understand.

Teki: Didn’t understand it. [00:52:25] You can’t blame somebody that doesn’t understand something. No interest in understanding [00:52:30] it. Some would say. Yeah. Still your parents still love them. I don’t understand [00:52:35] what some things are like in life, but, you know, it’s all about, you know, seeing it from somebody else’s [00:52:40] perspective. And they gets to a point where you’ve just got to be like, okay, they’re different. [00:52:45] And. And, you know, we should celebrate that. You know, somebody in the [00:52:50] profession, if somebody’s in their career wants to do a particular thing, you know, let’s encourage them. Let’s not [00:52:55] put them down. Let’s encourage them. Let’s help them. There isn’t really that help. When I was, you [00:53:00] know, growing in my career, that’s the shame. Whereas I feel like now there is that support. I [00:53:05] think there’s a lot of dentists I’ve listened on this podcast, especially that are, you know, inspirational, [00:53:10] that are there. I’m sure that if anybody messaged them, I know I’m the first person to help [00:53:15] anybody that needs any help in any part of the. There was no one like that when I was [00:53:20] working my way through the career. No. No way.

Payman Langroudi: I think the other thing is we need [00:53:25] to take fear a little bit out of the equation as well. Yeah, because, you know, I had Linda [00:53:30] Cruz on. Yes. And he told me that GDC situation is completely different to [00:53:35] what it was. It’s so different in like six years ago when it was a peaking, [00:53:40] it was peak.

Teki: Yeah, I was there. Yeah. Yeah, I was there. The fear was there.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But even the young guys [00:53:45] I mean, when you talk to trainers, I had some can’t cons. You know him? He’s a vet, [00:53:50] uh, trainer. And he was saying they had to introduce quotas for vets. [00:53:55] Yeah, of complex treatment, because everyone was so scared of doing anything [00:54:00] more than fillings and scaling, I see it.

Teki: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So. So we need to take fear out of it a little [00:54:05] bit for the younger guys. Yeah. Because you know you can’t go into dentistry scared. [00:54:10]

Teki: We talk about the younger guys. How many messages do I get? Or phone [00:54:15] calls or meeting up at shows where people say to me, you’ve left Invisalign, [00:54:20] but how? But why? But but but but, but, but all the patients want Invisalign. [00:54:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, let’s talk about Invisalign.

Teki: That’s the fear. Yeah, yeah. That’s in people that have got I’ve [00:54:30] got I’ve had conversations with people. I’ve got 20 practices. Yeah. Yeah. They’re scared. [00:54:35] Yeah. So it’s not just the younger generation.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right, you’re right. Sometimes. Sometimes the more successful [00:54:40] you get, the more scared you get because you’ve got more to lose, right?

Teki: More to lose.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [00:54:45] talk about this line of treatment Invisalign. First of all, let’s talk about just clinically. Yeah I want a clinical [00:54:50] aha. Um, moment that [00:54:55] you realised.

Teki: It’s very recent.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, wow. Good.

Teki: Very [00:55:00] recent. Good. When we’re doing a line of treatment or [00:55:05] orthodontics. If. Biomechanics. Yeah, it’s actually [00:55:10] understanding how teeth move. And you know what we focus [00:55:15] on because we’re very kind of we’re humans. [00:55:20] We kind of focus on what we see. And what do we see when we look in the patient’s mouth? The [00:55:25] teeth. Crowns. Crowns? Yeah. What do we forget?

Payman Langroudi: Roots. [00:55:30]

Teki: Which make up.

Payman Langroudi: Three quarters of the tooth.

Teki: That [00:55:35] for me in a single answer, is the reason why I switched. [00:55:40]

Payman Langroudi: It’s very interesting because, as you say, if you if you’re looking at a clincheck and you’re [00:55:45] seeing these roots, you’ve seen these teeth move around, you could be forgiven for thinking [00:55:50] that’s what’s moving and forgetting what’s going on. Orthodontists always talk about this. What’s going. [00:55:55]

Teki: On? Being a general and not an orthodontist. Yeah, the [00:56:00] roots exist. The patients have roots.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. One [00:56:05] thing I’m not clear on is that, you know, you’ve got crestal bone. That’s the dense bone, and then you’ve got the sort of spongy [00:56:10] layer underneath. Butcher butchering it. I am butchering it, but. But when, [00:56:15] when a tooth moves in, in bone, is there like a pivot point on the [00:56:20] crestal.

Teki: Bone for every tooth? Is that correct? And and, uh, depends if you’re talking in the maxilla [00:56:25] or the mandible. Different bones, of course. Of course. Then you’re talking about the shapes of the roots. Then [00:56:30] you’re talking about what is the force that’s pushing it? Is it a fixed appliance? That’s when [00:56:35] you’re talking about different types of brackets with prescriptions in them. Is it.

Payman Langroudi: Directional.

Teki: Aligners? [00:56:40] Yeah. You honestly it is you two, two and a half years ago [00:56:45] my eyes were just opened.

Payman Langroudi: And was was it the [00:56:50] the clean check of spark that did that to you or what happened?

Teki: What was the moment? Listen, [00:56:55] the truth is I fell out with Invisalign.

Payman Langroudi: Not to do with the product itself. [00:57:00]

Teki: Not to do with the product itself. The product was. It was just what I [00:57:05] knew. Yeah, it was just what everybody was doing and it was okay. We [00:57:10] obviously it can’t be us, can it? So if somebody needs [00:57:15] a refinement and another round of aligners and it doesn’t work, it can only be two things. It can either [00:57:20] be the patient not wearing them or it can be. The Invisalign has got limitations. It [00:57:25] can never be us as dentists can it? Surely it’s not our education that’s not quite there. [00:57:30] So for me, [00:57:35] yeah, that was kind of, um, you.

Payman Langroudi: Want to talk about the falling out or not?

Teki: I [00:57:40] mean, I mean, listen, in terms of falling out, some of my some of my closest friends [00:57:45] work for Invisalign still. And like I said, I wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for Invisalign. I really appreciate [00:57:50] everything that they’ve done for me, but the falling out really comes from I just [00:57:55] disagreed with them when they grew. But we’re talking about Invisalign. Back in 20 1516, [00:58:00] small head office in Cannon Street. It was a different company and [00:58:05] I understand they’ve just grown massively and that’s just what comes with it. We experience [00:58:10] it with different other companies in the industry as well. When they’re small, like a lab, you know, it’s your lab technician [00:58:15] making you your crowns. Then he’s got 20 others working there. It’s different. That’s okay. [00:58:20] But what really bothered me was they just did not appreciate [00:58:25] the small, local independent practices. You’ve [00:58:30] either got loads of practices. You’re either a corporate and that would determine [00:58:35] how you were treated by them From my experience, for me, doing [00:58:40] at the height of it, we did. We had a two surgery practice, just me overseeing [00:58:45] every single, and I did every clean check. You know, we reached the point where we did [00:58:50] 444 cases in a year.

Payman Langroudi: Bloody hell.

Teki: That takes us [00:58:55] to Diamond Apex, which they call the top 1% [00:59:00] in Europe. Now I know. Please somebody correct me if I’m wrong, [00:59:05] but I think I was the only true Invisalign diamond apex [00:59:10] provider.

Payman Langroudi: You mean not a group?

Teki: Yeah. Even within practices, [00:59:15] there’s other associates submitting. Whereas for me, it was. [00:59:20] I was doing every treatment. No treatment would pass if it wasn’t through me. Yeah, it would have people take [00:59:25] off attachments. Yeah, I would have people scanning, but I’d done the treatment. Yeah. No one else [00:59:30] done that.

Payman Langroudi: So what were you asking for? Something unreasonable. I have to put my supplier [00:59:35] hat on. Absolutely. Now. Yeah. So. No. So totally.

Teki: No. You’re right.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:59:40] were you asking for?

Teki: What? What it really what it really comes down to is two things. We were growing [00:59:45] as a practice as, as a, as a business. So I was now going to [00:59:50] go for more having more associates, and we were going to grow our numbers and it needed a [00:59:55] push. Okay, not for me, but for everybody else. Yeah. So [01:00:00] on the On the Doctor locator site for me personally, [01:00:05] and I sat with the manager of Invisalign and we were literally I made him do it on his phone. At [01:00:10] the time he was the manager at UK. I said to him, type in North London, if you [01:00:15] type in North London and you type in Invisalign on [01:00:20] their Invisalign site, I’m pretty sure I should come up [01:00:25] as top or one of the top because I’m a speaker for [01:00:30] them at the time. I’ve done all the cases, etc.. We were on the sixth [01:00:35] page. Where’s the recognition?

Payman Langroudi: Was it on purpose or [01:00:40] by mistake?

Teki: For the last five years, they were saying [01:00:45] that they were working on it because I’d raised it before. Another thing, [01:00:50] when the patients are going to look for a dentist to do their Invisalign treatment, they’re [01:00:55] seeing people that haven’t practised dentistry would [01:01:00] be they don’t even. They don’t even practice dentistry anymore. They the practice owners. Oh, and [01:01:05] it’s under their name. Why? It shouldn’t be like that. It should be the person that’s practising [01:01:10] that should be there. Because if it is that case, then somebody like myself, [01:01:15] an independent will be top. But because we’re not, we’re being washed down. That [01:01:20] was one thing and other few other things when it comes to education. So I was told, [01:01:25] you know, I’ve been working on them for a while when it comes to when it when it came [01:01:30] to education. We’re going to develop a course together in, you know, [01:01:35] in collaboration etc.. Great, fantastic. We got to that point all broken promises. [01:01:40] I asked for something very simple, which was to promote the course on [01:01:45] the Invisalign site, and I was told, we can’t do that even though there are [01:01:50] other providers that they were doing that for. So what’s the difference? Let me let.

Payman Langroudi: Me one [01:01:55] thing I like a caution word of caution that I want to. [01:02:00] One thing I’ve learned tell me, is when you’re working with a gigantic [01:02:05] organisation, they are the biggest organisation in dentistry right now, 30, [01:02:10] $40 billion company or whatever it is. Yeah. Depends on the share price. But [01:02:15] you definitely mustn’t treat them as a person. Yeah, right. It’s important. [01:02:20] Yeah. So I remember when I was a younger supplier, I approached Henry Shine, [01:02:25] and that year Henry Shine said no. Yeah. And [01:02:30] the following year Henry Shine said, oh, why didn’t you come last year? Yeah. Now [01:02:35] the reality was I was talking to two different departments in Henry Schein. True. [01:02:40] Yeah, but as a young fool, I’m not calling you a fool. No, as a young fool myself. [01:02:45] Yeah. I was like, Henry Schein can’t make decisions. Yeah. Last year they said this. [01:02:50] This year they said that? Yeah. Henry Schein is not a person. Right? Henry Schein is this massive [01:02:55] thing that moving it left or right is a disaster. Yeah. You mustn’t think it’s like [01:03:00] your practice of 14 people or whatever that, you know, you can move it around. It’s a mistake I made. It’s [01:03:05] a mistake I made. And so maybe. Yeah.

Teki: And I don’t doubt, um. [01:03:10]

Payman Langroudi: At the same time as a customer, you’re willing. You’re able to be pissed off, right? Yeah. [01:03:15] And you were. Is that right? And.

Teki: Absolutely. And the thing. And with these bigger companies. [01:03:20] Yeah, they’ve got the resources to be able to look after groups that are [01:03:25] corporates. They’re able to look after individual ones. They can if they want to because they’ve got the resources [01:03:30] to do that. So they can turn around and say, okay, well listen, you know, this guy’s a speaker. [01:03:35] He’s done this many cases. We can recognise him in a certain other way. So [01:03:40] I think they can treating.

Payman Langroudi: It like a person again.

Teki: I [01:03:45] think of course they’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Got the resources. Invisalign could buy the whole dental industry tomorrow. Yeah, [01:03:50] yeah. So they’ve got resources. It’s just moving that tanker sometimes.

Teki: Which [01:03:55] is, which is exactly because on an individual basis, people are apologising for all [01:04:00] of these things. And these are people that I, you know, I like, you know, that work for the company. You’re right. It’s [01:04:05] a big organisation. And it just kind of like just.

Payman Langroudi: Slow moving.

Teki: Which is my choice as [01:04:10] a, as a small independent business is to work with people, you know. So even when it comes to suppliers, for example, [01:04:15] we like working when it comes to labs, we like working with individuals. We like to know who we’re doing. So [01:04:20] it’s a choice. But the thing that that really kind of annoyed me was [01:04:25] I treated a patient who’s a high profile patient, and back [01:04:30] in the day, Invisalign used to we used to work together and they basically used to pay for their lab bill, [01:04:35] essentially. And oh.

Payman Langroudi: They should send you influencers.

Teki: No, I used to have the influencers.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:04:40] they, they.

Teki: And then and then they would say, right, if you treat them and you through this line, then we’ll pay for [01:04:45] it. So I was the middleman. Cool. Then all of a sudden, they stopped doing that, because I know that a lot [01:04:50] of other dentists wanted to have the same agreement, and they couldn’t keep everybody happy. I didn’t really care because [01:04:55] by that time I was okay. But I did her treatment through no [01:05:00] collaboration with them, and it was all done by myself. Did her composite bonding? [01:05:05] Three months later, I find out through [01:05:10] the patient that they’ve contacted her and they want to work with her without telling me. Yeah. [01:05:15] And I just thought to myself, there’s no need. You know exactly [01:05:20] who’s done her teeth, you know. Exactly. There you go again, man.

Payman Langroudi: There you go.

Teki: Again. Because I am a person treating [01:05:25] the.

Payman Langroudi: Company as a.

Teki: Person.

Payman Langroudi: It’s all you do. The person who contacted her had no idea you [01:05:30] exist. You know, because it’s a gigantic organisation.

Teki: I did I did my research [01:05:35] and I spoke and I spoke to people and they know exactly that I exist.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, so that pissed you off.

Teki: And the patient [01:05:40] and the. That was the last straw. And for me, listen, we could be like the fear. Let’s talk.

Payman Langroudi: About [01:05:45] fear.

Teki: Like you said. Fear.

Payman Langroudi: Did you have fear that when you moved from Invisalign, your patients, [01:05:50] you know, there’s massive brand recognition there? Your patients were going to worry about that? Or [01:05:55] were you calm that your patients were going to go with whatever you recommended?

Teki: Yeah, I was calm because [01:06:00] what people, a lot of people didn’t know is that I still had the patients before I did Invisalign. [01:06:05] I was doing something called six Month Smiles. I remember patients were up for it. [01:06:10] What patients really want is treatment by that [01:06:15] particular person or dentist, especially if the end goal for them is to [01:06:20] have composite bonding. The straightening is something that they just need to do to get there, [01:06:25] and that can vary based on cost. That can vary based on so many different things. So [01:06:30] how did you choose spark? I knew I didn’t want to use [01:06:35] Invisalign, so I thought, what is everyone else using? And like anything, [01:06:40] who do we go to? We go to the specialists in our industry. Who are the specialists? Orthodontists. [01:06:45] So I looked around Europe and I knew from the Invisalign speaker [01:06:50] circuit and the people that I’d spoken to who were those speakers [01:06:55] for Invisalign and the elite orthodontists in Europe and the UK. So [01:07:00] I looked into what they were using because I thought, surely, surely, if I’m feeling this, these guys are [01:07:05] feeling this as well. And that’s what. And that’s where it led me to spark. I realised that that’s what they [01:07:10] were doing now. Obviously orthodontists have already got that association with onco. Yeah. [01:07:15] So onco has been around for you know they’ve been using onco longer than Invisalign through Damon [01:07:20] brackets like myself.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So onco was the world’s biggest orthodontic [01:07:25] supplier before it was like Eminem. Yeah. So?

Teki: So they were an orthodontist. Were aware [01:07:30] of that. And I was aware of that because obviously I’d used the Damien brackets [01:07:35] before, so that’s why I tried. And [01:07:40] um, and.

Payman Langroudi: What would you characterise as the main differences between the two systems?

Teki: It’s the product. The [01:07:45] product is just better because what I see now after [01:07:50] and listen, you can only judge something.

Payman Langroudi: Once you’ve had it for a.

Teki: While. Yeah, I’ve done two and a half years [01:07:55] of it. I’ve done hundreds of cases of spark. Yeah, and I’ve done thousands of cases of Invisalign. [01:08:00] So honestly, you can ask me what [01:08:05] I see now from an outsider’s point of view is that Invisalign, they spend a hell of a lot of [01:08:10] money on research and development, and it’s gone into [01:08:15] scanners. It’s gone into small architect all sorts. [01:08:20] But the one thing which is a product, I don’t see any development. [01:08:25]

Payman Langroudi: We see the product, the plastic, the plastic. Don’t they always talk [01:08:30] about their plastic?

Teki: They talk about it and it’s marketing and it’s good brainwashing. But [01:08:35] actually when you study the plastic or you try another plastic, yeah, you will see [01:08:40] the difference. You will see that things track better. And now there’s data on it, by the way. There’s there’s, [01:08:45] you know, scientific evidence for this. So yeah it’s [01:08:50] better. The plastic is better. There’s there’s ten. I even did a webinar ten, ten Reasons Why I switched to [01:08:55] spark the attachment template. You can visualise the roots and the approver software. [01:09:00] There’s there’s a lot that.

Payman Langroudi: Shows the roots. Yeah. There’s a.

Teki: Yeah. So the approver [01:09:05] shows the roots and that can really shift your mindset. Now did you try [01:09:10] others.

Payman Langroudi: No. Are you just trusted his authenticity.

Teki: Orthodontist. Yeah. At the time, [01:09:15] the only other one that was good to use was spark. Now [01:09:20] I know that there is another one which orthodontist would use called Angel, which I haven’t tried myself, but [01:09:25] from what I know, they’re the only three. Invisalign spark Angel are the ones [01:09:30] that really work effectively. Well, I.

Payman Langroudi: Had Sonia from 30 JuCo here last [01:09:35] last week. Have you looked at that? They they what they do is they, uh, the [01:09:40] case is planned by an orthodontist. Yes. Then they tender it out to 12 [01:09:45] of the biggest factories in the world. Yeah. For, um, that make the aligners. Yeah. And [01:09:50] then, um, you can see which kind of plastic you’re interested in and they can bring it. [01:09:55]

Teki: Back for you. I think there needs to be, you know, this is the problem with and the other thing with Invisalign [01:10:00] now is that it’s a very closed system and there’s a lot of handholding [01:10:05] involved, which is why it’s very attractive to dentists, because it eliminates [01:10:10] that fear factor. When you’re using another product, something like spark, you know you [01:10:15] really need to educate yourself. You really need to be. So I run beginner’s courses for spark, [01:10:20] and actually I insisted to spark. I said, look, I’ll be a speaker for you, and I don’t mind training [01:10:25] general dentists, but you can’t get on the course unless you’ve shown a commitment [01:10:30] to orthodontics. You need to have done something. You can’t just come along [01:10:35] and do it just because it’s like anything, You know, I haven’t done a root canal for ten [01:10:40] years. Really. So you have to educate yourself. You have to really, really practice evidence [01:10:45] based dentistry. Take it. Take down those Invisalign posters from your practice. [01:10:50] Because guess what? When a patient comes in, they don’t say to you, is [01:10:55] it okay if I have some empress direct on my teeth? So what makes you [01:11:00] think that they’re going to specifically want Invisalign? Yeah, we use the name right now in the practice. We still use the name. [01:11:05] If a patient says to me, oh, I forgot my Invisalign in the car, I’m [01:11:10] not going to say to them, correct yourself. No, Invisalign is. Some people call their [01:11:15] whitening trays Invisalign. Anything that goes in their mouth that’s clear is Invisalign. So [01:11:20] it’s that big as a brand. There’s nothing wrong with it. It’s a good system that works well, but if you want [01:11:25] to push the levels and you want to do better, you want to practice evidence based dentistry and [01:11:30] you’re truly, truly impartial. You have to try all the systems out there. True. [01:11:35]

Payman Langroudi: True. Let’s talk composite bonding.

Teki: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: My [01:11:40] favourite massive interest in composite bonding. We do a course. We [01:11:45] we sell the materials. But I’m kind of interested in number one. Where [01:11:50] did you first learn composite bonding? Mhm. Number two again [01:11:55] back to this. Aha.

Teki: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about composite bonding.

Teki: Composite [01:12:00] bonding. And the journey is is a personal journey. Yeah I had four fours [01:12:05] extracted so I had all four orthodontic treatment. Now from [01:12:10] what I look at my teeth I think there’s no way that I would do that now to a patient. I don’t know why they did it before. So [01:12:15] I’m on this journey to educate and make sure that my [01:12:20] patients get the best. Yeah, rather than just the easiest because of an NHS contract or [01:12:25] whatever we’re doing it for. So it’s a personal thing. Yeah. And likewise composites the same. [01:12:30] So I finished my orthodontic treatment scuffs everywhere on my teeth because the brackets [01:12:35] were removed. Yeah. Now. So I get to two [01:12:40] three years into being a dentist. I don’t want to do something to my teeth. What [01:12:45] do I do? There’s only two options. One was a bit of a crazy [01:12:50] option. An option that wasn’t really done. Very, very few people were doing [01:12:55] it and the other one was porcelain. I was going to go to America. So I found [01:13:00] places in America that I was going to go for a consultation to get porcelain. And [01:13:05] then I thought, surely what I’m doing [01:13:10] on the NHS on a band three is composite. It’s kind of the same thing. [01:13:15] Yeah. Again, me being me before a Christmas, do I [01:13:20] decide to do my own teeth with composite? I [01:13:25] think it was Z 100 at the time, Z three or something like that. Yeah, shade, whatever [01:13:30] shade we had in the drawer and I put it on. What’s the worst that’s going to happen?

Payman Langroudi: What [01:13:35] did you etch bond. The whole thing. Yeah.

Teki: Oh well it was messy. And [01:13:40] I thought, well listen I have an etch properly. I haven’t bonded properly. It’s going to fall off [01:13:45] on Monday which is perfect. Yeah. Because then I can go and have it done properly. State. And [01:13:50] I was like, but how.

Payman Langroudi: How did it look?

Teki: How? Well, luckily for me, [01:13:55] I am a very because of the orthodontics I got very, very low lip like you can’t see it. So [01:14:00] I was the perfect case in that case to do it. It doesn’t need to look that good, but it lasted, [01:14:05] so it gave me the confidence to start doing it on my friends.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:14:10] so you didn’t go to court, you just started.

Teki: No. My course was NHS practice [01:14:15] in band three. Band two. Three.

Payman Langroudi: Ideas and practice practices. You [01:14:20] know, we get these people on the course here and, yeah, they think the course is the end of the journey is [01:14:25] of course, the very beginning. And practice is how you get good at it.

Teki: And actually [01:14:30] there’s, there’s logic in trying it first because when I have better questions. [01:14:35] Yeah they know what they’re asking.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So we kind of we really push people to come to our course twice. [01:14:40] Yeah. Yeah. The second time they don’t pay completely different.

Teki: It’s such a good idea. Yeah. Because you can [01:14:45] you can really tell the difference with people that have had a go. Yeah. So I had a go. So I practised I [01:14:50] knew the materials and I went on what was my first course. Jason [01:14:55] Smithson I hope he’s still.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah he’s still working. Jason was, was doing our course [01:15:00] before Depeche.

Teki: And I went to a course. I was invited by one of my friends who [01:15:05] went, and I’ll tell you what, I was blown away.

Payman Langroudi: He’s a master, he’s a master.

Teki: But [01:15:10] I tell you what, I also felt really shit. Why? Because I thought, there’s no way [01:15:15] I’m ever going to be able to reach this and do this. Yeah, I’ll go back to Monday. [01:15:20] I mean, my practice in Basildon with three bits, three shades of composite [01:15:25] and a flat plastic, if I’m lucky. How’s this going to work?

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:15:30] true. Because of that problem here on on [01:15:35] mini Starmaker where we have Depeche Mode most of the time, but then we have someone [01:15:40] else who’s been on the course who’s made a success of it, giving a one hour talk. [01:15:45] Yeah. And it’s important because you’re right. When you see Depeche work, you [01:15:50] everyone would say blown away. I’m never going to be able to do that.

Teki: And that’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah, [01:15:55] yeah.

Teki: So you have to kind of. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Bridget somehow got Bridget.

Teki: And really when [01:16:00] people say to me, are you doing your training academy? Listen, I don’t have a training academy. I’m the bridge. [01:16:05] What? I say, you’ve got to go and dip it. I can’t do a course like Depeche. I [01:16:10] can’t do a course like, uh, Jason did. But what I [01:16:15] can do is I can show you how I do it, how I do it in real [01:16:20] life on patients within two hours with in a, in a, in a live practice [01:16:25] setting.

Payman Langroudi: How many do you do in two hours? How many?

Teki: Um, [01:16:30] 6 or 8.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Two hours.

Teki: I’m quick. I’ve done over 6000.

Payman Langroudi: Bloody [01:16:35] hell.

Teki: You get, you get. But I’m very kind of. I’ve simplified it over the years. [01:16:40] I never really used three instruments. I’ve got my favourite three. I know exactly how I use them. [01:16:45] Very comfortable with the material that I’m using. Don’t forget my patients. Lucky [01:16:50] and unlucky for me sometimes. I’d love to add, I was actually at a, um, an [01:16:55] orthodontic course in Oslo. And the orthodontist, he was. He was a new composite. He was blown away by [01:17:00] my composite. And I said to him, listen, he was like, what? Why don’t you put the, you know, [01:17:05] the secondary, you know, the see through bits and the bottom. I said to him, I said [01:17:10] to him, Andre, my patients, honestly, if I put a see through edge on there too, I’d have a heart attack. [01:17:15]

Payman Langroudi: So patients don’t want that. They don’t want secondary or tertiary anatomy. [01:17:20] The vast majority. Now, what.

Teki: That’s helped me with is it’s made me focus on [01:17:25] the thing that actually really matters, which is primary. Primary anatomy, the line angles [01:17:30] and just getting comfortable and good. Now, I do have a growing number [01:17:35] of patients now that do want that. Yeah, just like I’ve got a growing number [01:17:40] of patients now that want fixed. Where on earth do they come from. They want fixed braces again. Why [01:17:45] is that? They know they don’t trust themselves because they’ve had aligners [01:17:50] before. Compliance. Compliance. They’re saying, I know I’m not going to be compliant, put a brace on [01:17:55] me, I don’t care, I’m going to I’m going to suck it up for six months. And there are a growing number of patients [01:18:00] that do want that.

Payman Langroudi: So I want to get back to before I forget dental monitoring. Do you use that?

Teki: Yeah. [01:18:05] Dental monitoring I have used it. So I use dental monitoring. [01:18:10] When I switched to spark it was a serious decision. So I needed [01:18:15] data to prove that it was better. Yeah, and the only way I could [01:18:20] get that, I’ve got my own personal data. So every person I put on Dental monitoring.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:18:25] for someone like you who’s got too many patients, it’s just the godsend, isn’t it? Like [01:18:30] you don’t have to see the patient as many times it’s.

Teki: I don’t use Dental monitoring for that. [01:18:35] Dental monitor.

Payman Langroudi: You’ll see the patient the same number of times. Yeah.

Teki: Because listen, they’re selling. And I always tell them this by [01:18:40] the way, we’ve got good relationship with them. You’re selling it as reducing chair time. Yeah I [01:18:45] don’t want to reduce chair time. Our practice is a experience based practice. [01:18:50] How are they going to have an experience if they don’t come? Our patients want to come to the practice. [01:18:55] So actually some of them might potentially see it as a bit of a fobbed off.

Payman Langroudi: Funny [01:19:00] you say that. You know, my daughter went through Invisalign with dental monitoring, and that was [01:19:05] the kind of practice it was. They they hardly saw her. I thought it was magnificent. [01:19:10] My wife, who’s also a dentist, was a bit concerned about how [01:19:15] little she was.

Teki: I use it, I like it, I like the product. I think there’s and now I don’t know if you know about [01:19:20] the smart STL. So now this is another good thing with with, you know, [01:19:25] with working with spark. So now with the Dental monitoring, they’ve got the scans to a level where [01:19:30] they can create for a refinement, an STL file.

Payman Langroudi: Of the Dental monitoring [01:19:35] scan with your phone. Yeah. Wow.

Teki: That means they can have a refinement [01:19:40] where they don’t come into the practice.

Payman Langroudi: I wouldn’t have thought that was possible.

Teki: Jesus, [01:19:45] is there an Invisalign?

Payman Langroudi: Just brought out their version, right? Which is free.

Teki: Yeah, Invisalign brought [01:19:50] out their version. Um, Uh, it doesn’t have, like, the smart STL stuff.

Payman Langroudi: They’ll catch up their version [01:19:55] of. Monitoring.

Teki: Monitoring. Yeah. Listen, it’s, you know, use it. But again, it goes back to what I said [01:20:00] about Invisalign before barking up the wrong tree. Get the plastic. Come back [01:20:05] to me. I will switch tomorrow. I will switch tomorrow. I’ll come. They keep nagging [01:20:10] me. They say I’ll come back. Come back. Do you want to come back? Of course I’ll come back. But show [01:20:15] me what you’ve done. That’s different. Show me the evidence. Tell me that you’ve created a plastic [01:20:20] which is more adherent, which is going to give us better tooth movements, which is going to lead to more efficiency, predictability, [01:20:25] and is going to enhance the experience of your patients and your [01:20:30] practice, and you’re going to make more profit. I’m back. See you spark.

Payman Langroudi: All right, [01:20:35] bro.

Teki: I’m a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to practice [01:20:40] management. Yes.

Teki: How long we got?

Payman Langroudi: Not long. Not [01:20:45] long. Yeah. Tell me what you know. I can I can imagine you [01:20:50] being great with staff. Great with patients. I can imagine that. That’s right. But [01:20:55] you told me before we started that you. The idea of practice running a practice isn’t interest [01:21:00] in you anymore.

Teki: I’ve done it. Yeah, it’s been four years. I’ve [01:21:05] done it. I’ve got the t shirt. Yeah. I don’t have any regrets. Yeah, but if I could go back [01:21:10] in time and I could change things, I’d change two things. I wouldn’t do it on my own. It’s [01:21:15] lonely. Yeah. And I think you need. You know, I see a lot of successful practices. There’s a there’s [01:21:20] a brother or a sister, uh, wife. Wife. It’s true. Yeah, I haven’t got. That [01:21:25] is me. That’s one thing. The second thing is keep it small. [01:21:30] Anybody that comes to me and says to me, do you think I should open a practice, I say, yes. Two [01:21:35] surgeries, three max. So that you can control it. [01:21:40] For me, it was two surgeries, and it was a tricky one. [01:21:45] Two was too small. The shot became available.

Payman Langroudi: You famously had this waiting list [01:21:50] of a year. Yeah. A year before someone could see you for Invisalign. It was even.

Teki: Longer than that. [01:21:55]

Payman Langroudi: Bloody hell, man.

Teki: Well, think about it. It’s amazing. It’s only me. Yeah. Yeah. So. [01:22:00] And. Yeah. Like, was it.

Payman Langroudi: Not an associate at all?

Teki: So I had an associate for [01:22:05] a period. She got pregnant and left and that kind of gave me another lesson. He’s going to come back to you anyway, [01:22:10] so only take on what you know you can do anyway. So we went from two surgeries, [01:22:15] which was fine. The shop next door became available, so it was almost like it’s [01:22:20] fate. It’s meant to be that we should have a four surgery practice. Yeah, and we had the [01:22:25] space and everything doubled, except for actually, [01:22:30] um, uh, profit every everything [01:22:35] just kind of. And it just became. And it is now, you know, before I never even used to check [01:22:40] the bank. I don’t need to check how much money we’ve got because I know we’re okay. As for [01:22:45] surgeries, you got to check your bank, and it’s just the.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the short run, dude. You got to [01:22:50] bear that in mind.

Teki: It’s the the short run.

Payman Langroudi: The four years is. I [01:22:55] lost three quarters of £1 million in the first four years that we practised. So after renovating [01:23:00] and putting in a couple of chairs in the short run for six months, you [01:23:05] have to look at your bank balance and in the long run, it would have been worth it right now that you’re trying to sell [01:23:10] it. I’m sure people are more interested in it because it’s full.

Teki: Absolutely, yes. Oh, yeah. There’s [01:23:15] no regrets there. But for me right now, I enjoyed running it as a two. I [01:23:20] c I don’t enjoy running it as a four, and it just deserves somebody [01:23:25] that hasn’t got that t shirt. Somebody that’s going to come in. Somebody that was [01:23:30] like me five years ago that just wants her. And what I’ve done is I’ve [01:23:35] taken away a lot of the difficult things about it. It’s on a plate.

Payman Langroudi: And the prospective [01:23:40] buyer is buying Teeth by Teki. It won’t be.

Teki: Teeth by Teki. Obviously it’s going to go through a rebrand. [01:23:45]

Payman Langroudi: Are you saying necessarily. Listen, you’re no longer interested in even working there [01:23:50] when someone buys it?

Teki: I’ve had some really nice conversations. Listen, I’ve had conversations [01:23:55] with the biggest culprits. The problem I’ve got there is obviously staying for [01:24:00] so long and being tied in for so long, I’d be. I think it would be suited. [01:24:05] And I’d like to work for a younger guys [01:24:10] that maybe have got 1 or 2 practices and.

Payman Langroudi: You’d rather do that.

Teki: Quite [01:24:15] personal. Like what we said, I think you kind of get the type of person I am now. If I find the right fit and somebody [01:24:20] that comes in, they’ve never had a practice, but they’ve got that enthusiasm and they see me as part of the [01:24:25] team, I’m ready to be captain. I’m saying to you, I don’t want to be the manager of this [01:24:30] team. Yeah, I want to be captain. I’ll be captain. I’ll be team leader. I’ll train, I’ll help. [01:24:35] I’ll gross a lot of money for you. I’ll be there. What? You want me for a day? Two [01:24:40] days a week. But you run it. This isn’t teeth by Teki. I’ve [01:24:45] got the t shirt now. The second practice that I’ve got is Teeth by Teki.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:24:50] it’s one surgery. Giant surgery? It’s one.

Teki: Surgery. And it’s designed [01:24:55] for teaching. For teaching so that I can have dentists and therapists come and mentor. We’ve got the space. [01:25:00] We can run small courses where we have live patient demonstrations, but actually [01:25:05] we’ve got space to do it. And for what the secret is, it’s actually two [01:25:10] minutes walk from my house.

Payman Langroudi: Haha.

Teki: I told you how I feel about Sussex, [01:25:15] so it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, in the future. What do you reckon? As a guesstimate? Like in [01:25:20] let’s imagine this practice gets sold and whatever, let’s say in three, 4 or 5 years time, [01:25:25] what do you reckon you’re going to be doing?

Teki: I would like to, if you say to me how old [01:25:30] I think because the thing is, with the practice being sold, it could be tomorrow. Yeah, but [01:25:35] I’ve had offers from six months ago.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, these things take.

Teki: Time, so who knows? It could be. It [01:25:40] could be a year or two.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s imagine the practice is out of the picture.

Teki: Practice out the picture. It opens [01:25:45] up to. I’ve met some incredible people. Like now, more and more in the industry. [01:25:50] I’ll give a little shout out to Sonny as well, because he was the one that pushed me to do this podcast as well. [01:25:55]

Payman Langroudi: Sonny. Sonny. Grey.

Teki: Oh, Sonny. One of.

Payman Langroudi: My favourites.

Teki: He came to be an associate [01:26:00] with me for a little bit. We trialled opening on a Saturday because we thought everyone wants to come on a Saturday, [01:26:05] so Sonny was there on a Saturday. It didn’t work. But anyway. Best thing about it is we’ve [01:26:10] stayed in touch and I’m really, you know, supporting him from from the side. But people [01:26:15] like that. Talking to him, talking to people like you, talking to people, it just [01:26:20] fills me with like ideas, creativity. So I can’t tell you I’ve got [01:26:25] the idea yet.

Payman Langroudi: Are you just know that you’re going to do something else and you’re going to do what I.

Teki: Know is [01:26:30] that in order to get creative, you need a quiet space. You know, people are in the [01:26:35] shower or in bed. That’s when they get the idea. What I’m doing, essentially, is I’m creating a quiet [01:26:40] career. We know it’s not for the money. We know it’s not for the desire [01:26:45] of having three, 4 or 5. I mean, a lucky position pay. Like I could have had more practices. [01:26:50] I’ve had a practice. So I can tell you, it’s not that the grass is greener. [01:26:55] If, you know, if I was to go back and work at Dream Smile, I would be okay. [01:27:00] You know, it’s a bit deeper than that for me now. As long as I can do what I need to do in my personal [01:27:05] life and something exciting on a professional level, [01:27:10] wherever that may be, I’m up for it.

Payman Langroudi: It goes back to that five day, four [01:27:15] day thing, you know? Like I’ve said many times, there would be no enlighten if I was working five days a week as a dentist. [01:27:20]

Teki: No, no, no. And that’s, that’s, you know, before space you’re talking about. Yeah. And before maybe [01:27:25] I think wrong with it, I would look for inspiration when you first start and open a practice, you [01:27:30] look for inspiration in those that have got five, 10 or 15 practices. Yeah, but now [01:27:35] I can tell you I respect them, but there’s no way on this planet I aspire to be like them. [01:27:40] However, somebody like yourself, what you’ve created, somebody like things like what Sonny does [01:27:45] and what other people are doing, they’re a bit different that were different, that are different. That’s [01:27:50] what gets me excited.

Payman Langroudi: Think about I just came back from Dental forum. [01:27:55] You know, you know what that is. Yeah. They match up.

Teki: This is this is in [01:28:00] Spain. It was.

Payman Langroudi: In Spain. They match up corporates with suppliers. And um, talking [01:28:05] to these corporate corporates, some of them had 4 or 5 practices. They were they [01:28:10] were there. And then all the way up to, you know, my dentist, 650 practices and [01:28:15] many in between. You’d be amazed the number of people who own 30, 40, [01:28:20] 50, 60 practices. Yeah. And talking to them, you know, and it’s [01:28:25] a nice setup because it’s not only business, you know, you do you have breakfast, lunch and dinner and [01:28:30] a party. Nice. For two days. Yeah. Nice all together. Yeah. And they go [01:28:35] into, uh, you know, private equity, you know, raising millions [01:28:40] to buy. You’ve got to understand, though, that [01:28:45] this sort of perfection paralysis or. I’m [01:28:50] not I don’t know what the word is. Maybe you’re a perfectionist. Yeah. Being a perfectionist is [01:28:55] amazing. Yeah. Maybe you can’t stand the idea of someone treating [01:29:00] someone in a practice with your name on it. That was anything below. And hence that bothers [01:29:05] you? That’s correct.

Teki: It does bother me and I’m proud of that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great. Great. But [01:29:10] whatever life you set up for yourself next. Yeah. It could be [01:29:15] like I had an interview with, uh, you know, what’s the Ballantyne? Duncan Ballantyne. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And [01:29:20] he was saying, you know, I have one phone call a day with my head of sales. One phone call a day with my [01:29:25] head of operations. Yeah, pretty much it. That’s what he does. And there’s a gigantic [01:29:30] business running. Yeah, yeah, a huge one. Yeah, yeah. So what I’m saying is the [01:29:35] lifestyle can be there with the gigantic business if it’s the right thing. And and [01:29:40] perfection. Perfection. You know, it’s a cliche, but perfection is [01:29:45] a is an enemy sometimes. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah it.

Teki: Is. And I’ve decided [01:29:50] to, you know, with all of this, it’s it’s almost saying, look, I don’t want to play that game [01:29:55] anymore. Yeah, it’s it’s really a case of. Right. The only game that I’m playing is going [01:30:00] back to the original thing that we said, which is, you know, look after yourself [01:30:05] and then all the, all the, all the other things. One of my favourite quotes, you’d be like a little quote, it [01:30:10] says, don’t spend your time chasing butterflies. Mend [01:30:15] your garden and the butterflies will come. Yeah, that’s what I’m doing. [01:30:20] You know I’ve done what I’m doing. All I’m doing is I’m just fixing myself. Looking after [01:30:25] myself. Enjoying what I do. Taking it back to the basics. Evidence based industry, education. [01:30:30] Hanging around elite people in the industry, having nice conversations [01:30:35] with my patients. Makes you happy. Makes me happy.

Payman Langroudi: Super [01:30:40] nice to hear you’re well world, melody. And.

Teki: And one of those things is being here with you today.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [01:30:45] finish it off with our usual questions. Fantasy dinner party. Three [01:30:50] guests, dead or alive. Who would you invite?

Teki: The problem is, [01:30:55] whenever people ask me these questions, my mind instantly it [01:31:00] just goes to football. Cool.

Payman Langroudi: Awesome. Bingo! Yes, we’ve had him before. [01:31:05] He’s been a regular guest at these Dental Leaders parties. Yeah.

Teki: Uh, [01:31:10] it’s Arsene Wenger. Yeah, it’s it’s actually, uh, Dennis Bergkamp. [01:31:15] Yeah. Who was my first growing up as an Arsenal fan was there. And Thierry Henry. [01:31:20]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, my God, you are a very, very Arsenal. Um, you’re a [01:31:25] what do they call you? Gooners. You’re a gunner. Cooler. Are you there all the time? [01:31:30] Yeah.

Teki: We’ve got a season ticket. Some of the players come. You know, that’s for me, really one of the best things [01:31:35] about, you know, being a patient. Yeah. A lot of our patients, they’re like, oh, you know, what’s he like? What’s [01:31:40] he like? I’m like, yeah, lovely. Great. So that’s one of the things that one of my proudest, uh, [01:31:45] things that I’ve done is be able to have a practice where people from all walks of life [01:31:50] in different industries are coming in for the same thing. So I do love it here.

Payman Langroudi: Final [01:31:55] question advice. If you had to leave three [01:32:00] pieces of advice for your loved ones on your deathbed, what would those three [01:32:05] things be? Yeah.

Teki: The first one, which is the one that stands [01:32:10] out straight away, is. Don’t judge. [01:32:15] Only judge when you’ve got all the information. Second [01:32:20] one would be you can’t pour [01:32:25] from an empty cup. Look after yourself first.

Payman Langroudi: That people [01:32:30] pleasing thing.

Teki: The people pleasing thing. And then the final one is whatever [01:32:35] you do, just enjoy it.

Payman Langroudi: Been a massive pleasure, man. [01:32:40] Thank you. Really? I’ve learnt a lot. I really have.

Teki: Thank you. Thanks for inviting.

Payman Langroudi: Me. Thanks [01:32:45] for coming, man.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, [01:32:50] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:32:55] Your hosts, Payman [01:33:00] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. [01:33:05] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me [01:33:10] and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to [01:33:15] say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about [01:33:20] subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get [01:33:25] some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star [01:33:30] rating.

Hunter Shepherd: My dad turned around and looked at me and he said, do you want to be buried or do you want to be cremated? [00:00:05] Because if you don’t stop, that’s the only choice you have left. Wow. Um, and that, like, really hit me hard [00:00:10] because I knew in that moment that I was literally dying. And if I wasn’t going to [00:00:15] die right then, I was going to suffer until I did.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is mind movers. Moving [00:00:30] the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. [00:00:35] Your hosts Rhona Eskander and [00:00:40] Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Hello everyone and welcome to another [00:00:45] episode of Mind Movers Dental Leaders. By the way, on that note, a lot of people have been asking [00:00:50] me how do I find the single episodes? So if you type in Dental, Leaders on Spotify [00:00:55] and Apple as well, everywhere. Yeah, you can find it. People also ask for the long form videos. [00:01:00] Sometimes this takes a little bit longer, but drop me a DM on Instagram which is at Doctor Rhona Eskander [00:01:05] and I can guide you to that. I am so thrilled because as this podcast [00:01:10] is growing, we’ve had the most incredible guests and today we have our first international guest, [00:01:15] Hunter Michael Shepherd, who is an incredible content creator. He [00:01:20] has been helping addicts all over the world. He has also been in recovery for how many years [00:01:25] now? Hunter?

Hunter Shepherd: Six and a half years?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, six and a half years. And through his own journey and process, which we’ll be discussing [00:01:30] today, he is going to be shedding a light on addiction. We actually [00:01:35] had well, Payman had someone else on the podcast episode 210. Yeah. [00:01:40]

Payman Langroudi: She she told Jane.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And she also talks openly about her own addiction, which was [00:01:45] extremely inspiring, especially for a woman that had to turn up to work [00:01:50] as a healthcare professional knowing that she, you know, was drinking, doing drugs, etc.. [00:01:55] So I’m really excited to delve into this topic further. Welcome, Hunter.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, [00:02:00] thank you for having me.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. So happy to have you. Okay, Hunter. So I love [00:02:05] to start with guests. From the very beginning. We try not to present too [00:02:10] many questions because we want to kind of, you know, get people on as their most honest [00:02:15] selves. So talk to me a little bit about your upbringing. So you grew up in the States, where did you grow up [00:02:20] and what was your childhood like?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, so I grew up in a place called the Mid-Ohio Valley, which is, [00:02:25] um, it’s where the Ohio River runs, right between Ohio and West Virginia. [00:02:30] And, uh, you know, the first 11 years of my life, [00:02:35] like, I had a great childhood, like, you know, my my siblings were there. You [00:02:40] know, I have two present parents that never use drugs in front of me. Never. My mom’s, I think, drank maybe [00:02:45] like, five times in her life or something. Yeah, my my life was good until I turned [00:02:50] 12 years old. And then a lot of different stuff kind of happened at once. Um, [00:02:55] I had, uh, I had crooked teeth. Absolutely hated that about myself. Uh, [00:03:00] I was overweight. I had this, like, weird haircut. And I think I started to realise all of that, that I wasn’t [00:03:05] happy with who I was as a person at 12. And also, I got prescribed [00:03:10] to Adderall at 12 years old, like a big prescription in America. We over prescribe [00:03:15] everything for ADHD. Yeah, well, for Add without hyperactivity, which [00:03:20] is what is crazy about it, because it still worked as like a stimulant for me. Like it it did [00:03:25] help me focus, but I could actually I learned from a very, you know, early age [00:03:30] that I could abuse that prescription and get high from it still. And then I [00:03:35] started to smoke weed and drink at 12 years old. Um, and that mixture of [00:03:40] Adderall, weed and alcohol made me very, like, angry and aggressive [00:03:45] young man. Wow. Yeah. Do you find the arseholes? [00:03:50]

Payman Langroudi: Overprescribed?

Hunter Shepherd: Um. I find that now there’s more [00:03:55] regulations around it in the States. But I do find that the UK [00:04:00] is, you know, 5 to 10 years behind the States in a lot of ways. And I do see [00:04:05] that it’s becoming a problem here now. Uh, just like I see the OxyContin [00:04:10] and prescription pain medication, uh, is also becoming a problem here. [00:04:15]

Rhona Eskander: So I actually did I tell you about the ADHD? Yeah. So I got diagnosed two weeks ago. [00:04:20] And I think just as you were describing, a lot of people would [00:04:25] say, like, is it did you have any childhood problems? Did you get bad grades? Could you not concentrate? And I [00:04:30] wasn’t necessarily that child like maybe in my earlier years. But then I went on to be able [00:04:35] to study really well and get the grades for dental school. Right. So people like, you’re doing fine. But I started [00:04:40] to notice things in my adult life, and I think I told Payman like you, you paid someone to tell you that diagnosis. [00:04:45] I could have told you that for free, because I think that I’m quite high functioning with [00:04:50] it is in like I can multitask ten things in one day, which is when people like how do you do [00:04:55] it all? But it’s the only way my brain works. Functioning at like 50% of ten things to do at once, rather than [00:05:00] one thing at 100%. Yeah, I was offered medication and I declined for now. And I think the [00:05:05] general consensus was is that my life is under control. But I’ve had to use [00:05:10] a lot of people and implement a lot of things to gain that control, especially running a dental practice. [00:05:15] And I guess I wonder, though, could medicine be a better [00:05:20] thing? I mean, are you still on the medication now and what’s your thoughts?

Hunter Shepherd: No, actually, [00:05:25] as somebody in recovery, you really can’t take narcotics. [00:05:30] And that’s labelled as a narcotic. It’s a stimulant. And a lot later [00:05:35] in life stimulants were my drug of choice. So to take something like [00:05:40] that would potentially, you know, trigger whatever a relapse. And I [00:05:45] just wouldn’t risk it. I’ve learned to live with it. You know, I am quite scattered sometimes, [00:05:50] but like you said, I can get a lot done in one day. And I’ve just learned to manage [00:05:55] it and live with it. I don’t feel like you have to medicate everything, you know. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: That’s really interesting. [00:06:00] Okay, so at 12 you recognised this was happening. And then where was the point where you felt it was becoming [00:06:05] a problem.

Hunter Shepherd: Well, it was way it was way later. I don’t think I ever [00:06:10] truly accepted that I was like an addict until I was probably 20 to [00:06:15] 21 years old, and there was like a lot of, like, chaos and stuff that happened in between [00:06:20] 12 and and then, yeah, I think my dad was the one that recognised [00:06:25] it first. And his way of like disciplining me was to [00:06:30] be, like, almost aggressive, like angry, confrontational. But like I said, I was, [00:06:35] you know, I was mixing alcohol and weed and Adderall and I was angry and [00:06:40] we would actually get in fights like fist fights. And I was the aggressor from like literally 12 years [00:06:45] old. So I also got arrested for the first time at 12 years old. So a mixture of all [00:06:50] of these things happened, you know, at that time.

Payman Langroudi: Going through your head at 12 when. [00:06:55] Yeah, you go from being a relatively normal 11 year old to at 12, [00:07:00] all of this happening to you, you feel I mean.

Hunter Shepherd: I think [00:07:05] that especially with being arrested, I was in fear. There was a lot of fear [00:07:10] related to that. And the first time they put me in a, uh, like [00:07:15] in the in a cell for 23 hours a day for a week. And I was with another person, and there [00:07:20] was a lot of fear around, like, you know, what’s going to happen? Pretty much. [00:07:25] But when it came to, like, the drugs, the problem is I had all of this [00:07:30] chaos going on in my head and in my life, and the weed and [00:07:35] the alcohol became a solution to that chaos. It made all of that go away. It made me [00:07:40] feel confident. It made me feel comfortable. It gave me like a thing to relate with other people, [00:07:45] like the town that I actually grew up in. It only had 1200 people in it, so everybody knew everybody. [00:07:50] I definitely wasn’t one of like the the popular kids. And I feel that that, [00:07:55] you know, it helped me connect with at least, you know, somebody else.

Payman Langroudi: Something to talk about. [00:08:00] Yeah, yeah. And then where did that go drugs wise. Did you. Yeah. So things. [00:08:05]

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah I did start to experiment with like psychedelics, like mushrooms, [00:08:10] LSD, you know, stuff like that. Um.

Rhona Eskander: Did that have a negative [00:08:15] or a positive effect? And the reason why I say that is because we’ve had a lot of people on this podcast who’s, um, and [00:08:20] I’m particularly interested in psychedelic therapy within the medical space. And there has been quite [00:08:25] a lot of positive reviews on how psychedelics have managed their mental health, but obviously they [00:08:30] have to be in the right setting with the correct facilitator. What’s your views or your experience?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, I mean, I won’t [00:08:35] ever say that I had a bad experience on psychedelics. I think that I abused [00:08:40] them, um, in a way where it wasn’t normal, it wasn’t okay. It was [00:08:45] actually an addiction for me. But I do believe that psychedelics use, [00:08:50] like you said, in the right setting, the right person are huge, a huge benefit to people. [00:08:55] It’s a tool that people should utilise, but it has to be in the right setting. You know, you can’t just [00:09:00] like go off. You know, a lot of people just like go off to some like jungle country in South America [00:09:05] and like take whatever with whoever facilitating it. And I think that that’s dangerous. [00:09:10] You know.

Rhona Eskander: My question for you though, is under the AA umbrella, are you even allowed to do.

Payman Langroudi: That?

Hunter Shepherd: I [00:09:15] mean, I know people that do, uh, but I personally feel that it’s a bit risky. You know, [00:09:20] I think maybe ten years from now when there’s been enough studies done and enough [00:09:25] evidence and proof that people can be okay, you know, then maybe it could be a tool that’s used. [00:09:30] But for right now, it’s too risky to to tell. I mean, I wouldn’t I don’t know if I would gamble [00:09:35] with it personally, you know.

Rhona Eskander: So all right. So we’re at this stage now and [00:09:40] I guess this is impacting school. You weren’t able to go to school. [00:09:45] How did that map out as well. And you’re kind of like working life. And were you kicked out of home [00:09:50] you know. So what happened after. Yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: So in between the period of 12 [00:09:55] and 16 years old, I continued to go like in and out. I got kicked [00:10:00] out of school a bunch. I never, you know, I was super rebellious. We’re getting fights at school like [00:10:05] arguments with teachers, all of that. And they would they would kick me out of school. And throughout that [00:10:10] whole period of time, I would be on and off of, uh, juvenile probation. And [00:10:15] at 15 years old, I was put into a place that because [00:10:20] my dad and I got in a fight like 3 or 4 times and I got in trouble for it. Uh, they actually gave me [00:10:25] a juvenile felony, and, um, they put me into a program that was, like, [00:10:30] meant to be like my like, last chance before they put me into juvenile prison. [00:10:35] And it was only it was only supposed to be a four month long program, but I actually [00:10:40] didn’t participate in the program, and it turned into an 11 [00:10:45] month stay. So essentially, uh, I got out after that 11 months [00:10:50] and went like straight back to to smoking weed and failing drug tests and all of that got kicked [00:10:55] out of school again. And I knew that my probation officer was [00:11:00] done dealing with me and that she was going to put me into juvenile prison. Uh, so I went on [00:11:05] the run from home, went on the run from her, and at 16 years old, I [00:11:10] used heroin for the first time. Wow. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Injected.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. Well, [00:11:15] the first time I did, I injected it. But, uh, actually, for like, the [00:11:20] next period, probably like four years or so. Uh, I didn’t use [00:11:25] it like that again, but eventually I did fall back into that. But the very first time I did it, I injected it. Yeah. [00:11:30]

Rhona Eskander: And do you think that that was when it was the [00:11:35] worst in your life? That’s when the addiction like, propelled or, you know, was at its highest [00:11:40] because something like heroin, you know, you’re, you’re there, you’re fully into the addiction.

Hunter Shepherd: Well, [00:11:45] so it wasn’t a good experience for a song for me. I was like, [00:11:50] so sick. I mean, I puked for like hours. I was like, not not waking up, like puking. [00:11:55] And, uh, it just wasn’t a good experience. And the next day, the police [00:12:00] found out where I was, and they came and found me and put me into juvenile prison. So which [00:12:05] was I was there for about six months or so. And I mean, it was it [00:12:10] was bad. There were like 80 people. Riots. Um, there were gangs in there, people that [00:12:15] were in there for, like, murdering their family. I mean, it was it was really bad, but [00:12:20] it was the only place that I ever had, like true structure. And I was able [00:12:25] to, um, uh, I don’t know if you know what a GED is, but a GED is where you test [00:12:30] out of high school. Um, so I was able to focus on that and, like, actually test out of high school so I [00:12:35] didn’t have to go back to school whenever I was released, because school was never, like a thing for me. [00:12:40] I couldn’t I just couldn’t do it. Um, I was never able to stay consistent. I was always getting kicked [00:12:45] out. And then when I was released, uh, I was put on to. So in the [00:12:50] state of Ohio, you can be on juvenile parole and go to juvenile prison until you turn 21. [00:12:55] And so when I was released, I was put on the juvenile parole, [00:13:00] and I started to smoke this drug called spice, which is like a big problem [00:13:05] here in the UK. It’s like a synthetic drug. It’s it’s a bad, it’s bad. I mean, [00:13:10] it’s a huge problem, especially within the prison systems. Um, because it’s, it’s [00:13:15] easy to sneak into, like a prison, like undetectable or whatever. And at the time in America, [00:13:20] they were just selling it, like in corner shops, like you could just like walk in and buy it like in any corner shop [00:13:25] wherever, and.

Payman Langroudi: Wasn’t regulated at all.

Hunter Shepherd: It wasn’t at all. It was being produced here in the UK [00:13:30] and shipped to the US. And, um, I started smoking it because [00:13:35] I could pass a drug test. So, you know, I didn’t want to go back to juvenile prison. [00:13:40]

Payman Langroudi: So they weren’t testing for it. So that was your drug of choice for that reason?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, yeah. And I didn’t [00:13:45] realise that it was as physically addictive as what it was. Um, I mean, it, like, had a [00:13:50] hold on me like I would if I tried to stop using it. I would withdraw for like days, [00:13:55] literally for days, three, four days at a time, trying to quit and, uh, like, worse than [00:14:00] heroin withdrawals. All of that. It was it was a bad drug. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: But, you know, it’s [00:14:05] amazing as well that you were able to get again. It just shows we were having a discussion on [00:14:10] last week’s show about schools and how, like, the educational system doesn’t [00:14:15] allow people that are neurodiverse or have a different way of thinking to [00:14:20] excel. And you have to kind of like pigeonhole yourself into way, but like you said, like [00:14:25] a different type of structure. I’m not recommending, you know, that we send everyone to jail that’s got ADHD. But you [00:14:30] were able to fulfil your studies, you know, and I think that’s really interesting that you were able to focus [00:14:35] in a different way. Yeah. And it shows the educational system also wasn’t meeting your needs. So [00:14:40] do you feel that time in prison was quite transformational at that time, or were [00:14:45] you still struggling when you came out?

Hunter Shepherd: Oh yeah, I literally I mean I went to using straight away [00:14:50] like straight away I think a really it was, it was bad [00:14:55] for me. And the only good thing that came from it was the education. That was [00:15:00] like literally the only good thing it it introduced me to other people that [00:15:05] were from the inner inner cities that I could, like, go buy drugs from later on in life [00:15:10] that I stayed connected with, like, you know, big drug dealers and, you know, kind of made [00:15:15] me less scared to, like, get involved with that kind of people. Um, because I knew them, him. I lived with him for, [00:15:20] you know, months. Yeah. I mean, look, I, I’m somebody that believes in structure [00:15:25] and routine and all of that, like, even now, like the the rehab facility that I work with in Los Angeles, [00:15:30] it’s it’s for young adults that are like failure to launch type people. And, [00:15:35] uh, it’s high structure, high accountability, mandatory 12 steps, a [00:15:40] sponsorship, um, like a very strict schedule. And they help people [00:15:45] reintegrate into society, education, getting a job, all of that and teach them how to do that. So I [00:15:50] believe in structure and routine, and it is beneficial for people to look.

Payman Langroudi: A lot of [00:15:55] the conversations that I’ve had with people around addiction are to say that addiction is, [00:16:00] is not necessarily based on the thing you’re addicted to. It’s [00:16:05] the thing in your head that makes you an addict and so on. And and people say you can be addicted [00:16:10] to anything you were saying before. We were talking about food or gambling or.

Rhona Eskander: Playstation.

Payman Langroudi: Or whatever, [00:16:15] whatever it is or your phone. But the question I’ve got for you is, with all of your experience of [00:16:20] having used all of these different things and having seen other people use these different things, [00:16:25] are some of these drugs different when it comes to addiction, or [00:16:30] is it basically the same thing?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, I mean, especially when it [00:16:35] comes to the physical side of it. Uh, there are drugs that are a lot more physically [00:16:40] addicting than other drugs. He was saying.

Payman Langroudi: Spice.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, yeah, spice.

Payman Langroudi: Fentanyl is famous [00:16:45] for that.

Hunter Shepherd: Well, and that was, that became my one of my drugs of choice. Oh, really? Yeah. Um, [00:16:50] because where I’m from is the, uh, the highest overdose rate in America, the most [00:16:55] opioid, opioid addicted place in America. So it’s super easy to fall into that [00:17:00] addiction. And fentanyl is physically one of the most addicting drugs. I [00:17:05] mean, it’s pretty brutal.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just explain. Yeah. Explain what.

Rhona Eskander: Sentinel is. Is it more important because I see the [00:17:10] only the first time I heard of fentanyl was through your page. Yeah. And then my friend, the first time you heard of fentanyl.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Come [00:17:15] on. I’ve actually been teetotal my whole life. I don’t know if you knew that, but as in, I have [00:17:20] never taken. I’ve never been drunk even. And people are like, oh, is it religious? I’m like, no, my parents are Christian. [00:17:25] Like they all drink. And I just was never drawn to it. I think I had an innate [00:17:30] sense of self when I was young, where I just knew I had an addictive personality, and I knew that I [00:17:35] was very prone to anxiety and depression and seeing people self-soothe and self-medicate [00:17:40] with drugs and alcohol actually put me off. That’s what put me off.

Payman Langroudi: Like I said to you, if you [00:17:45] go to some some retreat and some shame and gives you a mushroom tea, you’ll have it. Yeah, but that’s [00:17:50] in the end. In the end, it’s the same thing.

Rhona Eskander: It’s not the same thing.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not.

Rhona Eskander: The hunter is laughing [00:17:55] at you, by the way. You’re going to get used to this banter. It’s not because, as I said, like I would do a lot of research [00:18:00] and I would never take anything like that. Like, would I do ayahuasca like I probably would later on? [00:18:05] But I know it’s not. But I’m not doing it to get high. I’m not doing it to get the. The thing is, I’m [00:18:10] not doing it to self-soothe. I would be doing it to actually confront my inner demons and see the dark [00:18:15] shadow side of me and do the work on that. And I would go with people that hold the space [00:18:20] that help you integrate. There’s a difference. Right?

Hunter Shepherd: There is there is you and and look, there’s people [00:18:25] that can use any form of drugs or alcohol in that kind of way, actually. [00:18:30] And then there’s people like me.

Rhona Eskander: Not so sure.

Hunter Shepherd: I mean, there’s people that can drink [00:18:35] a beer or a wine and, like, leave it for the next six months, you know what I mean? [00:18:40] I’m not that kind of person. I feel like there’s two different kinds of.

Rhona Eskander: People drinking the alcohol in the first place. Like, for me, I’m [00:18:45] not going to do ayahuasca to go and rave in a nightclub like I would be doing it to for mental health reasons. [00:18:50] I don’t think you drink for mental health reasons like you do, but you do it to numb yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Listen, if you sat [00:18:55] around in a circle and someone put a fire on and then someone gave you some drink and it was alcohol [00:19:00] and you all wailed together, you’d feel the same thing.

Rhona Eskander: But I’m not sure I’m going to put. I’m going to send you [00:19:05] to a retreat.

Hunter Shepherd: It is, it is. There is a big difference. But alcohol [00:19:10] can be used recreationally, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But go talk about fentanyl. Like how bad is the physical [00:19:15] addiction to that.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah I mean it depends. It depends on how [00:19:20] you’re using it. Like if you’re if you’re an IV fentanyl addict, you’re and you’re, [00:19:25] you’re doing it for an extended period of time. If you survive, you know, you’re probably not [00:19:30] unless you’re medicated. Like if you just try to like strike cold turkey like from fentanyl, you’re [00:19:35] not going to sleep for weeks. Like, I mean, you’re you’re going to struggle to sleep for weeks. You’re [00:19:40] going to have diarrhoea, you’re going to be puking. You’re going to have, you know, restless legs [00:19:45] where you’re like, literally kicking your feet. You’re not going to have any appetite at all. Uh, [00:19:50] it’s pretty brutal.

Payman Langroudi: So new experience when when someone’s addicted to fentanyl, you know, [00:19:55] that’s going to be a more difficult drug to get off of than. Yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: Which [00:20:00] is so common. I mean, it’s the most common addiction in America right now. Oh yeah. For sure, [00:20:05] especially during Covid. I mean, it really exploded in America. [00:20:10] I mean, our overdose rates had to skyrocket.

Payman Langroudi: A bunch of heroin is laced [00:20:15] with it, right?

Hunter Shepherd: You’re you’re you’re gonna have a hard time finding heroin in America [00:20:20] now. Really? Yeah. It’s almost all fentanyl because it’s, like, so cheap. [00:20:25] Easier to. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Distribute.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. I mean, to even bring it into America. I mean, [00:20:30] it’s so strong that they can bring in small amounts and then make big amounts out of it. And [00:20:35] what they’re doing in America right now, and it’s actually starting to show up here in the UK as well. I’ve been reading [00:20:40] some stuff about fentanyl showing up laced in cocaine and all of that here in the UK. Um, [00:20:45] they’re making fake pain pills that look like [00:20:50] a real pain pill that people would normally, that people could abuse a Percocet and [00:20:55] they’re making them out of fentanyl and they’re not mixed properly. You know, they don’t know what they’re [00:21:00] doing. They’re making them in some garage with like a press that turns it into a pill. And [00:21:05] people are thinking that they’re taking pain pills, but they’re taking fentanyl and it’s killing people.

[TRANSITION]: That’s crazy. [00:21:10]

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about meth? People watch Breaking Bad. Have you had any experience of that?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. I mean, that was my drug [00:21:15] of choice. Was meth and fentanyl together at the same time? Yeah, it was my drug of choice [00:21:20] for three years. Wow. So yeah, at the end, at the end of, uh, at [00:21:25] the end of my addiction, I was a full blown IV fentanyl and meth addict.

[TRANSITION]: So at [00:21:30] this point.

Payman Langroudi: Fentanyl and meth. Yeah, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Hunter. So was [00:21:35] there a point. So I suppose then could you sustain a job? How were you living? [00:21:40] Were you homeless.

[TRANSITION]: Waiting for the.

Payman Langroudi: Drugs?

Hunter Shepherd: Hustling. Stealing. Selling [00:21:45] drugs. Hustling any way I could. So the first time that I learned [00:21:50] to sell drugs was with the spice. One of my best friends. He’s still my. He’s my business [00:21:55] partner today. Sober as well. At that time, we were business partners, too, but in bad things, [00:22:00] you know. And, uh, his uncle was getting, like, huge shipments of [00:22:05] spice to America and then selling it to all these, like. Yeah. From here. And we were [00:22:10] buying spice for $0.50 a gram, and we were selling it for $20 [00:22:15] a gram. So we were I mean, you know, there was a lot of money from it, but I just used every bit [00:22:20] of spending all.

Payman Langroudi: The money to buy more drugs. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: Fuelled my addiction.

Rhona Eskander: Where were you living at this point? [00:22:25]

Hunter Shepherd: Uh, at that point, I was living with my mom, actually.

Rhona Eskander: And how was your relationship then?

Hunter Shepherd: She worked [00:22:30] a lot. Um, was.

Rhona Eskander: She aware of what was going on or. You don’t think so?

Hunter Shepherd: I’m not sure that she thought [00:22:35] it was as bad as what it was. You know, she was pretty naive to it. Like I said earlier, she [00:22:40] had maybe drank, like, you know, ten times in her life. Maybe. Mhm. Um, [00:22:45] so she had never seen drugs. She had never seen addiction. She didn’t know what was going [00:22:50] on. Um, I think that it was probably pretty suspicious that I constantly had people like coming and going, [00:22:55] you know, and then actually so during this, [00:23:00] during this period of time, my I met my daughter’s mom, uh, through that [00:23:05] drug, and, uh, she became pregnant. Thank God she.

[TRANSITION]: Left during Covid. No, [00:23:10] no, no.

Hunter Shepherd: No, this was I was like I was like 18, 20, 19. Okay. Yeah. [00:23:15] And, um, yeah, my daughter is almost, almost 11 now. Yeah, yeah. [00:23:20] So she stopped using the drug and then I continued to use it until [00:23:25] one day they made it completely illegal in America and like, shut it down, like completely. So overnight [00:23:30] it was all gone and I was withdrawing and I had no choice but to withdraw from [00:23:35] it. And, uh, like, literally sleeping on the bathroom floor for days because I was so sick, I couldn’t [00:23:40] do anything else. And I decided at that point that I didn’t care about [00:23:45] parole. I didn’t care about failing a drug test. I didn’t care about, like, anything. And I [00:23:50] started to use heroin. At that time, it was still heroin and pain pills, [00:23:55] really, just to get rid of the withdrawals. Like I wasn’t thinking of the consequences. I just, in [00:24:00] that moment had to get rid of the withdrawals, of course. And, uh, went on the run from my parole [00:24:05] officer, and, uh, I share I share this story, you know, [00:24:10] a good bit. And I think it’s relative to how a strong addiction is. Um, when my [00:24:15] daughter was born, I was full blown addicted to to opiates and, [00:24:20] uh, like, literally as she was born, I’m, like, holding her and I. And I start talking and she wasn’t [00:24:25] crying. She, like, looked at me and smiled and it was like the most beautiful moment of my life, [00:24:30] you know, my daughter has just been born. She’s smiling at me. And, um, the addiction [00:24:35] was so strong that I couldn’t go a few hours without using. So I was like, literally in the parking [00:24:40] lot, getting high before we left the hospital because I just couldn’t, I couldn’t I couldn’t go without [00:24:45] it. But for in a normal person’s mind, they’d be thinking that would be enough to, like, change your life. You know, you [00:24:50] wouldn’t want to use, but I couldn’t. I couldn’t go without it, you know?

Rhona Eskander: So on the notion of [00:24:55] addiction, because I think it’s something the person that changed my views on addiction as Gabor Maté, you know, [00:25:00] his work. Yeah. And I talk about him a lot on the podcast. Have you read his books yet? Based on all my recommendations. And [00:25:05] the reason was his book, I think is one of the most powerful books on addiction in the realm [00:25:10] of hungry ghosts. I don’t know if you’ve read it, but he talks about because he was [00:25:15] a very prominent physician in Canada, worked with all the rich people, and then he decided [00:25:20] to go completely like the opposite direction and was working with all of the drug addicts [00:25:25] in a really poor part of Canada. And when he tells these stories about [00:25:30] the addicts, like you say, like, you know, there’ll be someone, a woman that’s addicted to heroin and she’s like, I’m going to give up because now [00:25:35] she’s pregnant and she’s like, this child’s going to change my life and then can’t give up. And then [00:25:40] like society, shame her. And anyways, the whole point is, is that he goes into all of the biological [00:25:45] elements of addiction. And addiction isn’t just about self-soothing. There is just [00:25:50] so much more to it. There’s now. It’s now been shown that, like the brain and the biology of the brain and the [00:25:55] chemicals affects people’s ability to be addicted or [00:26:00] not addicted. And I think that’s when we treat it so incorrectly. Like, I feel like we almost punish addicts [00:26:05] or we look down on them rather than really understanding why they’re addicted. And [00:26:10] I think we can help it. And I know that’s a lot of the work that you do as well, but that’s my understanding. [00:26:15] And I think he was absolutely huge in making those changes and challenges, because there [00:26:20] is a biological element to it, isn’t there?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: Oh, 100%. Yeah. I mean, it affects [00:26:25] your nervous system, um, you know, to the point where it like, triggers your, like fight [00:26:30] or flight, like in that moment of me, like, you know, being at the hospital, [00:26:35] like you start to panic, like, you know, like the adrenaline part of your body, you start to panic, [00:26:40] like, yeah, like you’re going to die almost, you know, like you can’t be without it. Like you’re like in fear. [00:26:45] And I think that a lot of that is like in fear of the physical withdrawal, too. For [00:26:50] me, I was like terrified of that. And it would actually trigger like that fight or flight in me. And I was like, I need it, I [00:26:55] need it, you know? Yeah. Um, but yeah, it’s so much deeper than. Yeah, so much. I just.

[TRANSITION]: Want to [00:27:00] get across.

Payman Langroudi: That all the time with, I guess, family members. And is that sometimes [00:27:05] the first step to say, hey, stop blaming the person?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. I [00:27:10] mean, look, dealing with families, uh, because I know something that I do now, dealing with families [00:27:15] is probably the hardest part of actually helping somebody. Uh, and oftentimes, [00:27:20] and I’m not going to blame anybody. Right. But oftentimes the families are the ones the dynamic [00:27:25] of the family is what keeps somebody sick, you know. Yeah. Because there’s always different roles [00:27:30] within a family system. And, you know, there will be people that don’t that don’t want to understand it, [00:27:35] that blame and all of these things. And then there will be an enabler. Right? So like with my [00:27:40] with my family, my dad was the one that was like constantly like trying to discipline and blame [00:27:45] and all of that. And my mom was the one like making excuses for and enabling me, you know? [00:27:50] Um, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I think that’s the tricky thing about it as well, because [00:27:55] sometimes, like, the family wants to keep that person in a certain position, you don’t know the dynamics. [00:28:00] Like are they able to being abused by a family member? You know, there’s like I think it’s it’s extremely complex [00:28:05] and leads to why certain people are addicted. And Gabor also [00:28:10] talks about someone super famous. I don’t want to say Kurt Cobain because it wasn’t Kurt Cobain, it was someone else. I cannot remember [00:28:15] who’s really famous. And he said that in that moment I think he was also a heroin addict. [00:28:20] He said that in that moment of not needing to do heroin, it’s not he’s not even thinking about the consequences, [00:28:25] because the desperation to escape from his own reality is so much stronger than [00:28:30] that. And that’s what we fail to recognise.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, if someone we all [00:28:35] have, if you’ve got a family member who’s got a problem, a lot of times you’re [00:28:40] there is blame blames, a massive part of it.

Rhona Eskander: People blame families all the time.

[TRANSITION]: They [00:28:45] blame the.

Payman Langroudi: Person, blame the person. You know, the addict. And I found, you know, if you can, if you [00:28:50] can at least get to the point of saying it’s an illness. Yeah. Whereas, you know, don’t blame someone for being [00:28:55] sick, but you do blame them for having an addiction. Mhm. You know it’s a common.

[TRANSITION]: Thing and. [00:29:00]

Rhona Eskander: Relapsing as well. You know that’s that’s the big thing. And it’s really, it’s really hard to have [00:29:05] that compassion because one of my best friends bless his soul, he [00:29:10] is on and off crystal meth. I’d say that he is only an addict. He’s an addict in a sense, [00:29:15] but not because he does it when he’s really in dark spaces so he can go a really long period of time of [00:29:20] not relapsing And I think it’s really hard because when he’s in that dark space, [00:29:25] he becomes like a really different person. And I can see how many people he pushes away and how many [00:29:30] people he treats. And again, you’d think like people are like, oh, why don’t you just go to rehab or fix [00:29:35] up? Or it’s just so much easier said than done, and you have to keep reminding yourself of that. It’s a really tricky [00:29:40] one. I think it’s a really, really tricky one.

Hunter Shepherd: Crystal meth has super high relapse rates as well. [00:29:45] And sugar is like a higher rate of endorphins in your brain than any other drug. [00:29:50] Um, so it’s like so addicting. And it’s there’s a huge relapse rate with it for sure.

Payman Langroudi: Tell us [00:29:55] about the turning point.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. You want to hear that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yourself. And then also it [00:30:00] must be like, you know a big part of your work now. Yeah. Turning people [00:30:05] I guess accepting that there’s an issue. Tell us about. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Tell us about the turning point. It.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, yeah. [00:30:10] So, uh, and this is kind of a long winded answer. So, so on my 21st [00:30:15] birthday, I did meth for the first time. It really was a drug [00:30:20] that brought me to my knees quickly. Like, uh, you know, I say that spice was like one of the [00:30:25] most addicting drugs I did, and that’s because of the physical element of it. But meth was [00:30:30] a drug that put me in bad situations with bad people. And [00:30:35] it’s such a it’s such a overwhelming and tiring drug [00:30:40] to use. So it very quickly took me to rock bottom, you know, whatever you would [00:30:45] consider rock bottom and.

[TRANSITION]: Sorry, did it take you.

Rhona Eskander: To rock bottom because the highs were so [00:30:50] high and the lows were so low? Or did it take you to rock bottom whilst you were on? I assume not.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. [00:30:55] I mean I think yeah, that that is partially it as well because [00:31:00] like with meth you stay up for days at a time and then you go into [00:31:05] psychosis, you don’t eat, you don’t drink. And it’s just such a powerful drug.

Payman Langroudi: Right. Are you taking [00:31:10] it for days at a time? Oh, yeah. Is that how it works? Yeah, yeah, because it took us through it. Yeah. Let’s say it’s [00:31:15] a Friday. You start. Yeah. And you constantly use.

Hunter Shepherd: It all the way until Thursday. [00:31:20] Probably.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. And then Friday to three Thursday. Are you having the best time of your life or for [00:31:25] the first time?

Hunter Shepherd: For the first like day or two? Yeah. It’s great. You’re just.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. And then.

Hunter Shepherd: And [00:31:30] then.

Payman Langroudi: It’s. And then you feel terrible until.

Hunter Shepherd: Suffering, just suffering. But you continue to use it because you’re addicted [00:31:35] to it. What it is, is with meth. It lasts a long time, but [00:31:40] the most enjoyable part of it is probably like the first hour. So, you know, [00:31:45] you might use it, feel good for an hour and then the next like seven hours is just awful. [00:31:50]

Payman Langroudi: And so chasing that. Yeah. First that.

Hunter Shepherd: First hour. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh and [00:31:55] then what happens. You haven’t slept at all in that week.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. Literally unless I used [00:32:00] fentanyl. And I nod off for maybe 20 minutes and wake up.

Payman Langroudi: Are you hungry?

[TRANSITION]: No. You haven’t [00:32:05] eaten anything of him.

Rhona Eskander: He’s looked.

[TRANSITION]: So.

Hunter Shepherd: Oh, yeah. Literally. You won’t eat for days, literally. [00:32:10] And, um, and you get really dehydrated as well. So, [00:32:15] um. Yeah, that’s that’s a bad part of it too. Like, okay.

Payman Langroudi: So now on Thursday, you’re just in such [00:32:20] a state, you’re gonna have to stop. Yeah, yeah. And then go on. What happens? Do you get to sleep? [00:32:25]

Hunter Shepherd: I would normally so what I would I would do is I would use I would use it for days. [00:32:30] Not off every once in a while using fentanyl. And then by the time I’m like six [00:32:35] days in, I’m in psychosis and, like, really hallucinating and paranoid and probably [00:32:40] locked in like some hotel room by myself, like peaking out of people for like seven [00:32:45] hours.

Payman Langroudi: So after you or whatever.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, yeah. And in reality, you know, [00:32:50] I’m just some addict. The cops wouldn’t be looking for me. Yeah, it’s not like I’m doing anything like crazy, you know? [00:32:55] Yeah. And, um. Yeah. So then I would just use a bunch of, like, fentanyl [00:33:00] or heroin and fall asleep and then be asleep for ten hours and wake up and do it again. [00:33:05] Wow. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: So that’s crazy.

Rhona Eskander: So, so so you were saying that that [00:33:10] was the drug that brought you onto your knees, and then what happened?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. So I, [00:33:15] you know, like I said, I just was involved with bad people. A lot of, like, traumatic [00:33:20] stuff happened. I mean, just awful stuff, right? And, uh, I realised in that [00:33:25] moment that I needed help. And thank God I have the mom that I do. [00:33:30] And, uh, she’s been an MRI tech for like, 35 years. So she worked at the [00:33:35] same hospital for like 30 years. She had health insurance. And our health insurance system [00:33:40] in America is a lot. It’s. Well, if you have health insurance, it’s it’s one of the best systems in the world, [00:33:45] you know, but.

Rhona Eskander: You can’t afford it. You die.

[TRANSITION]: Well, so it’s really [00:33:50] I.

Hunter Shepherd: Mean, it depends. It depends. Right. So it depends on what state you live in. So actually Ohio [00:33:55] and West Virginia both have really good Medicaid. So, um.

Rhona Eskander: Is [00:34:00] that like Obamacare in a way.

Hunter Shepherd: So Obamacare, what Obamacare is, is it made [00:34:05] private health care more affordable to the average person. So Medicaid [00:34:10] is actually for people that can’t afford health care at all. Okay. And when it comes to [00:34:15] addiction treatment, mental health is where it’s really lacking with Medicaid or free health care [00:34:20] in America. But when it comes to addiction treatment, there’s so much funding. And [00:34:25] a majority of the states like Ohio and West Virginia, they’re the two most affected states [00:34:30] for drugs. So they have a lot of extra funding to help people. So I [00:34:35] could have got help there regardless. But I was, I was blessed. I had a mom that [00:34:40] that had a good job in a hospital, so I had health insurance that covered me going into treatment. [00:34:45] So between 21 and 23 I went [00:34:50] to treatment six different times. Mhm. And rehab. Yeah. Rehab six different times. [00:34:55] And we have a majorly flawed system with rehabs [00:35:00] in America. There’s a lot of places that don’t have good intentions. They just want to bill [00:35:05] your insurance. They want to lie to you and tell you that they provide X, Y, and Z when they [00:35:10] don’t. Um, a lot of them are committing insurance fraud. They’re doing a lot of really bad things. Right. [00:35:15] So I, I kept going to programs that and I’m not going to blame [00:35:20] it completely on them. You know, it was it was me as well. The you know me relapsing. It was it [00:35:25] was my fault as well. But I kept going to places that were not structured, didn’t have any [00:35:30] routine. They just looked nice. They were in these beautiful locations.

Hunter Shepherd: You know, you got all this like [00:35:35] extra stuff included with the massages and acupuncture and all that stuff. Right? But they [00:35:40] they didn’t actually help people get sober, you know, they weren’t geared toward good [00:35:45] clinical care and treating people appropriately. So I would go to these places, get sober [00:35:50] for like a month to 90 days, and then I would go home and I did. Nothing changed. [00:35:55] I was just sober, uh, and I would relapse very quickly. And this happened over [00:36:00] and over again. It got worse every single time I’d relapsed. And, uh, the [00:36:05] last time before I got sober now I was able to put together five months of sobriety. [00:36:10] It was the longest I had ever had, like ever as an adult, aside from, you know, going [00:36:15] to jail or whatever. And, um, I moved back to to [00:36:20] what? I was in California. I went to treatment in California, I moved back to Ohio, and I relapsed [00:36:25] because I was living at home with my parents. I lost my job. [00:36:30] Uh, my girlfriend broke up with me all in a week, and I didn’t have a solution. I didn’t know what to do. You know, life [00:36:35] is going to show up. Like when you’re in recovery. Um, and somebody showed up and [00:36:40] they said, hey, look, I’ve got some drugs do you want to use with me? And in that moment, it was my solution. [00:36:45] Three weeks later, I had lost £45, which is like three stone. [00:36:50] Wow. Um, I had picked my whole entire body. I had scabs all over my whole body. [00:36:55] Like those videos I saw those.

Payman Langroudi: I saw those pictures.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. I was like, delusional. I [00:37:00] was out of my mind. I slept maybe three days in three weeks, and, um, I was [00:37:05] super dehydrated. And it was it was bad. It was the least that I’d ever weighed in my in my whole [00:37:10] life. I was like £165, and I was hanging [00:37:15] out with a girl that I had that I had stolen $200 worth of drugs from three [00:37:20] years before. I like messenger and was like, hey, can you give me a ride and I’ll give you drugs or whatever? [00:37:25] And she intentionally poisoned the drugs that I was using, trying to, like, hurt [00:37:30] me, uh, with a drug called flakka. And, uh, and I did it. I was an IV addict [00:37:35] at this point. Uh, I injected it, and I blacked out for three days. I didn’t know who I [00:37:40] was. I didn’t know where I was. I was just, like, lost, gone.

Rhona Eskander: And and [00:37:45] what happened to her? Did you had did you find out that that’s what she did?

Hunter Shepherd: Well, what what happened [00:37:50] was I had like it’s kind of graphic, but I had a bag of meth setting out [00:37:55] and I was knotted out on fentanyl and flakka, which is [00:38:00] like bath salts. I’m not sure if you ever heard of that or it’s like similar to spice, but much, much stronger. [00:38:05] Uh, it looks just like meth. So she put it into the meth that I was doing, and, [00:38:10] I literally sucked it into the needle. And I put the needle in my arm, and I [00:38:15] remember her saying, I fucking hate you. I fucking hate you. I did it and blacked out.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: Wow. And, [00:38:20] uh, my daughter’s mom, who I, who I’ve been using with, showed up to the hotel [00:38:25] room that we were in, and as soon as she showed up, they left her. And this guy that was there, [00:38:30] just straight left, and, um, you know, they were just going to leave me like [00:38:35] that to, you know, maybe potentially die or whatever was going to happen to me. But [00:38:40] yeah, I mean, the it was pretty obvious what happened. You know, I’ve been using the same drugs from the same people [00:38:45] for a period of time, people I’ve known for years. First time she shows up [00:38:50] and then I do the drugs, and then that’s what happens. You know what happened next?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. So it’s like. [00:38:55]

Rhona Eskander: Watching a, like a riveting film where like, tell us more.

Hunter Shepherd: So my daughter’s [00:39:00] mom called my parents and said, you know, he’s not okay. Like, you need to come now and take him [00:39:05] to the hospital. So it’s like the middle of the night. They show up, take me to the hospital. And that’s like the videos [00:39:10] that you see that you see of me on my social media. My parents were recording me in the hospital [00:39:15] because they knew I wouldn’t remember and I wouldn’t believe how high I was.

Rhona Eskander: So at this point, did your [00:39:20] parents know how bad the problem was?

Hunter Shepherd: Well, I mean, yeah, I was like, [00:39:25] you know, I was two years into going to different rehabs and trying to get [00:39:30] sober, and it got worse every single time. And they knew that I was on a relapse and they [00:39:35] were trying to get me, like, sober long enough to, like, be able to go back into [00:39:40] a rehab. But this was like the worst thing that had ever happened to me at that point. [00:39:45] Yeah. It was you haven’t.

Payman Langroudi: Got kids, man. But thinking that your kid. The helplessness [00:39:50] and the worry that that must be if your kid is going through that. Mhm. But [00:39:55] go ahead. Sorry.

Hunter Shepherd: No, no it’s all right. Um yeah. So I the psychosis [00:40:00] was so strong that, that and they took me home. The hospital was trying to put [00:40:05] me into like a mental health ward and my parents were like, he’s not, you know, he needs to go to a treatment [00:40:10] facility. So they took me home while I was, like, hallucinating and then psychosis, [00:40:15] and it was so strong that I would go to sleep and wake up [00:40:20] still in psychosis. And for three days I slept in between my parents because [00:40:25] it was the only place I felt safe. I didn’t even know who they were. I didn’t know who I was, I didn’t know my [00:40:30] name. I couldn’t put together a sentence like.

Payman Langroudi: Potentially they’re thinking he may never come out [00:40:35] of this, right?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. I mean, I feel like they knew that I was like, just like, [00:40:40] super high, you know, um, when it goes.

Payman Langroudi: On for days and days and days.

Hunter Shepherd: I mean, [00:40:45] I’m sure they were in fear of it for sure, you know? But what happened was they kind of [00:40:50] came to the conclusion that the places that I were going, that I was going to were just like [00:40:55] luxury places, and they weren’t actually helping me. So they contacted the [00:41:00] insurance company and they said, hey, listen, our son is relapsed this many [00:41:05] times. Like we need somewhere that you recommend. And they recommended [00:41:10] a place in Palm Springs, California, uh, that was uh, structured, had [00:41:15] routine, mandatory 12 step meetings, mandatory sponsorship, somewhere [00:41:20] I could live for like an extended period of time. And when I came out of it [00:41:25] because I’d been, you know, out of my mind for three days, I couldn’t get high. [00:41:30] So I was withdrawing. I mean, I was like, like full blown withdrawals at this point. [00:41:35] And, uh, withdrawals.

Payman Langroudi: Are what, vomiting?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, vomiting. Just aches. Body [00:41:40] aches shaking. Just awful. Awful restless legs. Like literally like.

Rhona Eskander: But can’t [00:41:45] they give you something to counteract that they do with heroin, right. Like when you’re coming off, they give you something to.

Hunter Shepherd: Suboxone [00:41:50] or Subutex. The problem is, if you take [00:41:55] one of those drugs too soon, it puts you into something called precipitated withdrawals. [00:42:00] And because what Suboxone does is it’s, uh, so opioids [00:42:05] set on your opiate receptors in your brain. And then, uh, if you [00:42:10] take it too early, Suboxone comes in and washes it off of your, your receptors [00:42:15] and it puts you into, like, full blown withdrawal. It pushes all of the drugs out of your system. [00:42:20] And that’s a really, really painful experience. Like I mean that’s like brutal, brutal, [00:42:25] way worse than regular regular withdrawals. Um, like you’ll you’ll [00:42:30] literally think you’re dying. Uh, so normally I would only recommend [00:42:35] using that drug if you’re in a controlled setting, like in a detox facility. [00:42:40] Right. Which is where I was headed. And, uh, they. I made [00:42:45] my parents drive me to to the hood to get drugs, because the flight from Ohio [00:42:50] to California is like a five hour flight. And I had a layover, so it was like [00:42:55] a seven hour trip, and I knew I wasn’t going to make it unless I did something. So I’m like literally [00:43:00] using drugs in my parents backseat on the way to the airport for two hours. [00:43:05] And, uh, I remember my dad. Uh, really? This is like a major [00:43:10] turning point for me. My dad turned around and looked at me and he said, do you want to [00:43:15] be buried or do you want to be cremated? Because if you don’t stop, that’s the only choice you have left. Wow. Um, [00:43:20] and that, like, really hit me hard because I knew in that moment that I was literally dying. [00:43:25] And if I wasn’t going to die right then, I was going to suffer until I did. Uh, [00:43:30] and it really hit me. Um, and I realised [00:43:35] that I needed to take it seriously.

Payman Langroudi: But on that occasion, when you were on the way to that rehab, was [00:43:40] your brain different? I mean, the previous six times were you thinking, hey, I [00:43:45] don’t know, I might reuse and this time you knew you wouldn’t or something.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, I mean, I was terrified [00:43:50] because of being poisoned. Yeah. Yeah, um, I was, yeah, I was terrified, [00:43:55] but also I was, like, beaten to a point of willingness. I knew [00:44:00] that everything that I had done before wasn’t working. You know, every time I went into [00:44:05] treatment before I had, I was I was willing to at least try. Yeah. Um, but at [00:44:10] this moment I was like, okay, you know, I’m willing to do, like, literally anything to stay [00:44:15] sober. How old were you? I was 23.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Crazy how she kind of did you a favour, [00:44:20] huh?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. Yeah. She did. She did. And people always ask me, like, you know, did [00:44:25] you not try to, like, put her in jail or this and that?

Rhona Eskander: She saved you in a way.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, she did. And, [00:44:30] you know, through my own recovery, I’ve learned to, like, forgive her, you know, for that thing. [00:44:35] And I heard that she’s sober, too. So I hope that, you know, I hope she’s on. Well, [00:44:40] just kind of how I feel.

Payman Langroudi: What happens in rehab?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. So.

Rhona Eskander: So you made it to rehab? At this point, [00:44:45] I did. Stop jumping the gun. It’s. You’re like you’re watching it.

[TRANSITION]: Like you’re watching.

Rhona Eskander: At times 20. [00:44:50] Go on. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Just got to rehab. What happens to rehab? Yeah I did.

Hunter Shepherd: I barely [00:44:55] made it. I mean, by the time I got there, I was like, on death’s door, you [00:45:00] know? Yeah. For the first, like, week, I don’t even really remember it, [00:45:05] you know, I was on Suboxone, uh, for the first week. Yeah, I was just kind of in a [00:45:10] daze. I think it was partially because of the drugs that she had given me as well. Like I was so [00:45:15] unwell that I could barely even talk, like my voice was a whisper for, like, a solid, like, two weeks. [00:45:20] Well, um. Yeah. And when? Yeah, yeah. So I went [00:45:25] through detox. It took about ten days. Uh, and then I got put into what’s called a sober [00:45:30] living. It’s actually not a very common thing here in the UK. It’s more of a thing in the US. [00:45:35] Um, so I got put into sober living and I started going to outpatient treatment. And for [00:45:40] the next, like 120 days, I stayed in outpatient treatment in sober living. [00:45:45] Uh, I went to two AA meetings a day, in the morning and at [00:45:50] night. I had a sponsor. I worked at 12 steps for the first time. Um, [00:45:55] did you.

Rhona Eskander: Stick to the 12 steps the first.

[TRANSITION]: Time? Yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: I mean, I still work the 12 steps.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I mean, [00:46:00] I know, but as in, like, you didn’t relapse during the 12 steps, the. So you did it the whole way through. Yeah. I’ve [00:46:05] been I’ve gone with some of my friends to different types actually to AA na [00:46:10] and another one and And then my one of my other friends actually was doing slaa sex [00:46:15] and love addiction. Yeah. So I had I went with her and [00:46:20] um, understood. And I think it’s, I think it’s pretty powerful also because it’s also massively recognised [00:46:25] by psychotherapists and psychiatrists as being extremely powerful. And I think that speaks volumes. [00:46:30] It’s something that’s been tried and tested for years. Um, but yeah. Go ahead. So then you were there. [00:46:35] Yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. Um, yeah. So also something special happened during [00:46:40] that period of time. I was like literally two weeks sober and started to write about [00:46:45] my recovery and, uh, my life and my struggles with addiction. [00:46:50] And, uh, I started to make it’s actually kind of what got me my first, [00:46:55] like, beginning of a following I would make. I would take, you know, the pictures of me when I [00:47:00] was like, all messed up and I would make memes out of them, like making fun of addiction. And [00:47:05] then I would share them and they would just like, go viral because, I mean, they were pretty bad. They were pretty raunchy.

Rhona Eskander: But [00:47:10] you never set out to gain this huge following. Or did you just thought, oh, I’ll just post. And then it just suddenly [00:47:15] came.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. It was like partially like kind of a way to hold myself accountable as [00:47:20] well. Uh, and to give me something to do for the first time, I like, realised [00:47:25] like, oh, I can’t try to, like, go get, get a job. Uh, I can’t, like, jump straight [00:47:30] into a relationship, you know? And it gave me something to focus on in my, like, free [00:47:35] time. Um, so. Yeah. No, it just kind of. It wasn’t planned. It wasn’t intentional. Uh, this is [00:47:40] way before, like TikTok and reels and all of that. It was just like written posts and [00:47:45] like meme.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, people’s attention span was a lot longer [00:47:50] back then. Yeah, yeah, it was good. Uh, and then I would also make like [00:47:55] relationship memes because I never had like a real relationship. [00:48:00] I’d never been with anybody for a period of time. And I would kind of like make fun of that. [00:48:05] And people just related to it and it would just like go viral. And that’s how it started.

Rhona Eskander: And [00:48:10] were you still maintaining a relationship with your daughter during this time? Yeah, yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: My parents would actually [00:48:15] like bring her to see me. But then they realised that they needed to get away from Ohio [00:48:20] and West Virginia. So I think I was like maybe six months, [00:48:25] seven months sober. And they decided to move to Arizona to get away from the area [00:48:30] and to support me as well. Uh, so I was able to like, live with them in early, [00:48:35] early recovery and like, build that relationship back with my daughter. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What do you think is the reason [00:48:40] that Ohio and West Virginia has this drug problem?

[TRANSITION]: Um, so is it.

Rhona Eskander: Higher [00:48:45] than anywhere else? Oh, yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. So it starts.

Hunter Shepherd: So the [00:48:50] reason that it happened was because, um, there’s a lot of, like, [00:48:55] blue collar workers there. A lot of people get injured. And also those people have [00:49:00] good health insurance as well.

Payman Langroudi: And they go on paying medication first.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, there [00:49:05] were dirty doctors that were overprescribing pain medications there, specifically [00:49:10] OxyContin. You know, they were being incentivised to sell OxyContin. And then there were pharmacies [00:49:15] that were filling prescriptions without using the insurance. So you could [00:49:20] just go pay them cash and then get your prescriptions. So you could use your insurance to get one [00:49:25] and then get another one and get like double prescriptions and stuff. And that’s really [00:49:30] where it started. But then what happened was it was on the news that the [00:49:35] federal government came in and shut down all these doctors, and they came in [00:49:40] and the drug dealers came in and started to sell heroin to all these people that were withdrawing [00:49:45] from the Oxys. And then what happened was Mexico was [00:49:50] like the cartels were like, oh, well, you could put fentanyl in that and make it a lot [00:49:55] stronger and a lot cheaper and sell more of it so that then that’s how fentanyl came in. And then they [00:50:00] started to introduce like carfentanyl, which is like an elephant Tranquilliser [00:50:05] it’s like a much stronger form of fentanyl that they use as an elephant. Tranquilliser. And, [00:50:10] uh, and then that just kind of like just killed whole generations of people in [00:50:15] West Virginia.

Payman Langroudi: The sort of big pharma kind of angle [00:50:20] on this. Yeah. And also, you know, the prison industrial complex. Yeah. I [00:50:25] mean, have you got views on that? Do you, do you think there’s a conspiracy to make a bunch of drug addicts, or [00:50:30] do you think this is just the the way it’s turned out, because those money’s such a big part of those two things. [00:50:35]

Hunter Shepherd: I mean, not every state has privatised prisons, but [00:50:40] if you look at the states that do, I mean, there’s definitely like a much bigger, you know, relationship. [00:50:45] Yeah. Yeah for sure. I mean, yeah, the private prison system in America [00:50:50] is pretty bad.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a crazy idea. Do you know about this?

[TRANSITION]: No.

Rhona Eskander: Tell me. I’m like, what’s going on?

[TRANSITION]: Prison is a.

Payman Langroudi: Business. [00:50:55] So, like, some some company will say to the government, we’ll build this massive [00:51:00] prison for you as long as you can guarantee us 80% occupancy rate. And then the cops [00:51:05] go out and try and find people to put in prison. And the easiest way to do that is find drug addicts.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: But that’s and [00:51:10] again that’s a huge, huge problem. Societal problem. I went to a retreat, [00:51:15] not a psychedelic retreat. Another one in Costa Rica.

[TRANSITION]: It’s good to retreat.

Rhona Eskander: I’m [00:51:20] all about the self-help. I went to this, uh, retreat in Costa Rica, and there was [00:51:25] a guy there that was doing a lot of work. He owned the retreat, and one of the big things for him is [00:51:30] he used to be a police officer in Amsterdam, and he has an immense amount of guilt [00:51:35] with arresting people. And he’s kind of like repenting his sins because now [00:51:40] he works with he’s of like South American indigenous origin. [00:51:45] But now what he does is he goes out to the prisons in wherever in South America. And [00:51:50] what he recognises is how flawed the system was. And he’s like, you know, like he has such guilt about [00:51:55] essentially what he feels like ruining people’s lives because you arrest someone, the job [00:52:00] opportunities are gone. What’s the percentage? Isn’t it like 80% are more likely to commit [00:52:05] the same crime even after they come out of prison? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Plus, I’m.

[TRANSITION]: Just saying.

Payman Langroudi: You meet people in prison who [00:52:10] enable you.

[TRANSITION]: Later.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, exactly. So, like, the system is flawed as well. And I think that goes [00:52:15] back to the thing of like, how do we help and treat these people? Because people that have [00:52:20] committed a crime have committed it for reasons, you know, like, I.

Hunter Shepherd: Mean, it’s it’s interesting because I feel like [00:52:25] the Netherlands is actually probably one of the least strict on on addicts [00:52:30] and prisons and all of that. I mean, you know, even even with like, their health [00:52:35] care system, they’re the Netherlands is one of the only places in the world that will [00:52:40] fund somebody going to treatment. Like, even if you’re like, you don’t have anything, you’re [00:52:45] homeless addict, all of that. You’re required to have like a private form of health care. And then in [00:52:50] the Netherlands, uh, so they’ll fund that health care for you and it will actually cover you going [00:52:55] to a different country for treatment.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I don’t know what he was arresting them for, but [00:53:00] I think the guilt was more about the arrest itself and ruining people’s lives, as it were. [00:53:05] From what you’re saying, absolutely. I mean, I’ve talked before about Lisbon as well. [00:53:10] You know, Lisbon used to have one of the highest problems with heroin. And again, they used to arrest them, chuck [00:53:15] them in jail. So then what they started doing was, is that they opened up these centres and they’re like, cool. You want to get the heroin? [00:53:20] Come here. Because they knew at least where it was coming from, and then they’d offer them help at the same time. [00:53:25] And if they wanted to have the help, they could if they were there for the heroin, at least it was like clean [00:53:30] or whatever. And the needles and actually they ended up battling, combating like a lot of the [00:53:35] heroin problems because of that.

Hunter Shepherd: And they’re starting to do that in a lot of places in Canada [00:53:40] and the US, because at least if they’re like using these drugs [00:53:45] that are regulated by the government, like you said, they know where it’s coming from and it’s actually saving people [00:53:50] from overdosing on fentanyl. Yeah. You know, and it stops like the spread of disease and all of that. [00:53:55] If you’re if they’re giving you clean, you know, clean needles, you’re not sharing needles with other people and getting HIV [00:54:00] or hep C or whatever.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: No.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Now you [00:54:05] got better. You’re sober. Yep.

[TRANSITION]: Episode four. Yeah. Was it was.

Payman Langroudi: It this question of [00:54:10] why now get into the workplace. Mhm.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. I think um I [00:54:15] didn’t really even try to get a job until I was about a year sober. And [00:54:20] by that time I had, you know, probably 30 or 40,000 followers [00:54:25] on social media just from like organic, like posting. Everything I’ve done [00:54:30] is organic and built from like the very bottom, just like learning how to go viral and capturing [00:54:35] trends and all of that. And, um, I what happened was I got jobs [00:54:40] working in marketing and business development and admissions for treatment facilities. [00:54:45] So I, you know, people.

Rhona Eskander: Want a degree. How were you getting those jobs because.

Payman Langroudi: Of his growth.

[TRANSITION]: Right?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, [00:54:50] because because I was getting traction on social media and they saw that I had a marketing mind, you [00:54:55] know, and, uh, yeah, thankfully I got noticed by people that were willing to [00:55:00] train me.

Rhona Eskander: Talk about the dentistry for the dentist. Yeah, I ended up in dentistry. Yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: That actually [00:55:05] like it’s funny how that happens. So I started to do [00:55:10] marketing and business development for the same facility that I work at today. And the [00:55:15] owner, he’s he’s literally one of my best friends. And, uh, he owns a marketing agency as well. [00:55:20] And, you know, they knew that I was good at essentially going viral and, uh, these, these, uh, dentists [00:55:25] were hiring us for me to help them with, like, content creation and stuff and, and to help them [00:55:30] get their name out there and educate people and all of that. So were you.

Rhona Eskander: Interested?

Hunter Shepherd: Oh, I love it. Yeah, [00:55:35] it’s super interesting. Especially airway and sleep. I mean, it’s [00:55:40] crucial to your health as, as as a whole, you know? Yeah, actually, a lot of the stuff [00:55:45] I learned really freaked me out. You know, it made me paranoid about my own airway and sleep and all [00:55:50] of that, you know?

Rhona Eskander: It’s becoming more and more popular, people talking about that. And actually, [00:55:55] I’m sure you know as well they’re linking a lot of airway problems to ADHD and [00:56:00] children unable to sleep. And then the hyperactivity that’s like related to that. And I’ve had [00:56:05] some really credible, well known dentists tell me that they were a bit [00:56:10] unsure or tried the devices, you know, that opened up the airways on their own kids and said they [00:56:15] notice a huge difference in their behaviour, which I think is really interesting. So I think it’s a very interesting [00:56:20] space. It is so from dentistry to, you know, even bigger [00:56:25] content creation. Let’s talk about, you know, where you work now, the centre, how that all came [00:56:30] about.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: So I actually so I do a couple different things. I have a, I [00:56:35] own a business that’s uh, it’s called a case management company. So like [00:56:40] a family, let’s say a family has a son or a daughter or, you know, husband, wife, whoever [00:56:45] that is addicted. And they’ve tried everything. They can’t convince them to go to treatment, [00:56:50] like, you know, just living in absolute chaos. They’ll hire me and my team to come [00:56:55] in, and we have somebody that’s a case manager that will essentially assess what [00:57:00] that person needs and what the family needs, and then we’ll manage their their case [00:57:05] all the way from start to finish. And what that looks like is I’m an interventionist. [00:57:10] So, um, I’ll fly to wherever and uh, essentially [00:57:15] or somebody that we partner with that we work with will do the intervention and we’ll [00:57:20] convince that individual to go to treatment and then we’ll safely transport them to treatment. [00:57:25] And then our case manager will kind of, you know, manage them while they’re in treatment [00:57:30] and plug into the treatment program, but then also help the family get the resources that they need. [00:57:35] And then sometimes, depending on the situation, we will have somebody [00:57:40] called a companion live with that individual for like a month to three months and help them [00:57:45] kind of reintegrate back into their life and their family and make sure that they stay sober [00:57:50] and they’re achieving all the things that they need. And it’s actually a highly successful system. [00:57:55] And it’s it’s been used for a long time as well. Um, you know, there’s tons of companies that provide [00:58:00] similar services and, uh, yeah, it’s great. I love that aspect of what I do. [00:58:05] I’ve been able to travel to like ten different countries in the last like year and help families [00:58:10] from all over the world. Um, and.

Payman Langroudi: So you look at the one [00:58:15] addict’s needs very different to a different addict’s.

Rhona Eskander: Different ages, I suppose. Right. [00:58:20]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: I think every single family system and dynamic in every [00:58:25] individual is different. I mean, does that does.

Payman Langroudi: That mean that you kind of bespoke what you do for [00:58:30] them? For instance, are they rehab facilities that suit one person more than another?

Hunter Shepherd: Oh, 100%. [00:58:35] That’s the most crucial part of it. Yeah, yeah. Um, because like, let’s say, you [00:58:40] know, an individual has an eating disorder or they have, you know, a certain, [00:58:45] uh, mental health condition on top of their addiction, you have to be able, especially with the eating [00:58:50] disorders. That’s a very touchy thing to.

[TRANSITION]: Try to bulimia that stuff.

Hunter Shepherd: All of [00:58:55] it. Yeah. It’s honestly, eating disorders are just as bad, if not worse than substance [00:59:00] addiction. And they’re much harder to treat because you have to think you don’t have to have drugs [00:59:05] to.

[TRANSITION]: Starve.

Hunter Shepherd: Yourself. Yeah, exactly. So. And you can die from [00:59:10] any eating disorder as well. I mean, it’s a pretty bad thing. So yeah, you have to be able to [00:59:15] look at the, the whole, the whole, you know, case situation. Yeah. To determine [00:59:20] what facility would be the right facility. There’s there’s places that are dual diagnosis. There are places [00:59:25] that are specific to mental health, that are specific to only addiction, and they don’t really [00:59:30] treat mental health disorders. Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: If if insurance wasn’t [00:59:35] paying for it, what does it cost to get someone treated. Yeah. So on [00:59:40] top of, you know, whatever you guys are charging the.

Hunter Shepherd: The it depends. It depends. [00:59:45] So a lot of I find that a lot of people here in the UK because bare minimum [00:59:50] any treatment program I would private program I would recommend in the UK bare minimum cost [00:59:55] £15,000 and that’s like bare minimum. So a lot of people actually [01:00:00] leave the UK. A place that I prefer to refer people is actually South [01:00:05] Africa. Um, it’s a place that that people travel to often from, from the UK [01:00:10] anyway. So it’s not unfamiliar. It’s, uh, their money is worth a lot less [01:00:15] than than British pounds. So you’re able to access, like, the highest level of [01:00:20] health care for, like, a third of the cost or less than what it is here. So, [01:00:25] you know, we can take a look at essentially what some of these financial situation is.

Payman Langroudi: And can it run [01:00:30] to hundreds of thousands of dollars?

Hunter Shepherd: Uh, no. No, I mean, it could it depends [01:00:35] on the family and the situation or it could be as low as, you know, £5,000. [01:00:40] So but I do find a lot of the people that we deal with [01:00:45] are people that are of a higher net worth, and actually they’re the hardest [01:00:50] people to get sober because they have, you know, unlimited amount of money to just continue [01:00:55] to hit rock bottom as hard.

[TRANSITION]: Exactly, exactly.

Rhona Eskander: There’s a really famous, [01:01:00] um, rehab slash kind of, I don’t know, it’s not really [01:01:05] a retreat, but, like, place in Switzerland. Yeah. And they literally charge you, like, £10,000 for, [01:01:10] like, five minutes. Like it’s a joke. Like you go for the week, you pay like 100 K or more.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: It’s, [01:01:15] um, I don’t want to say the name. I’ve actually visited some of the places over there, but, [01:01:20] uh. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: You know, the one I’m talking about.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. It’s like £350,000 for a month. [01:01:25]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: And basically. But the thing is, is that the repeat clients are a joke. As in, like, are [01:01:30] people getting better because they come back and come back and come back.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It goes back to what [01:01:35] you were saying, that there’s there’s the incentive. The financial incentive is, is sometimes in [01:01:40] the wrong place. Right. Yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. So the one thing I can say about Switzerland [01:01:45] and the treatment as a whole there is that the people that go there [01:01:50] are going there because they value privacy. And, um, you know, [01:01:55] you can’t paparazzi is illegal there, and it doesn’t exist.

[TRANSITION]: At that.

Rhona Eskander: Clinic used to.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. [01:02:00] And, uh, the only one that I like, there is one that actually implements group therapy, [01:02:05] uh, whereas the one that you’re speaking of is more of an individual focus. And [01:02:10] to me, you have to have the group therapy element and have a community because recovery [01:02:15] is about community in my opinion. You know, I agree. And you know, at the end [01:02:20] of my addiction, I was isolated. Nobody wanted to be around me, I was isolated, I didn’t have community. [01:02:25] Uh, and I needed that to, to get well.

Rhona Eskander: I think a community is so [01:02:30] underrated. So as Payman said, like, I’m a wellness slash, like healing, like junkie. [01:02:35] And I’ve been doing my own stuff for, like, a really long time, dealing with my own [01:02:40] mind and everything. And I had I had like one of the most transformative experiences of my life on [01:02:45] Saturday. I know I haven’t told you about it cause I haven’t seen you. And it was. I have a coach and he’s [01:02:50] brilliant. Um, and he works a lot with breathwork. And I’ve done like, I’ve known, like, quite like a [01:02:55] few breathwork coaches. But we did a one on one experience and I had, [01:03:00] you know, when you see the photos of like the eye, the third eye that people talk about, I had that experience [01:03:05] essentially. I’d never had that in my entire life. And he was like, that was your alignment. And I was like, crying my eyes out. [01:03:10] I wasn’t even emotional that day, but it had accessed like a different part of my brain. And I’ve.

[TRANSITION]: Had experiences. [01:03:15]

Hunter Shepherd: Like that with breathwork.

[TRANSITION]: And it’s.

Rhona Eskander: Crazy. And he was like, it’s almost like having a hallucinogenic [01:03:20] with breathwork. And the alignment that came as like things popped into my head that I [01:03:25] didn’t necessarily were not necessarily like thinking about. And I was looking for answers for different [01:03:30] things. So it can be extremely transformative. But the point is, is that when I started working with [01:03:35] my coach, I was like, community, community, community, I want community. And after I’d been with like him and the facilitator, [01:03:40] what I realised was, is community makes me feel seen. The right community and making [01:03:45] you feel seen is one of the like most primal, important things [01:03:50] in humanity. That really is the thing that makes you feel safe and loved, just makes somebody feel seen, [01:03:55] is so underrated. And I was like, yeah, I just think it’s it’s do.

Hunter Shepherd: Your do your hands [01:04:00] lock up whenever you do breathwork?

Rhona Eskander: It was actually shaking and I went freezing. My body temperature dropped, [01:04:05] dropped. I’m not talking about like the one that we did here for like three minutes. We had a breathwork coach. This was like on a [01:04:10] different level because it was it was for an hour.

Payman Langroudi: Saying about being seen. So interesting. I was, I was at [01:04:15] Alicante at the weekend where they bring all the top. They basically [01:04:20] to be there. You had to own at least ten Dental practices, and [01:04:25] they had these bunch of guys about 50, 100, 200, and 50, 600, you [01:04:30] know, like giant business people. And we were talking about motivation, right? [01:04:35] What is the motivation to keep going and what what is it? You know why, [01:04:40] why, why go from one to 6 to 200? And the notion that [01:04:45] sometimes to be seen in a particular environment, people will give up everything else [01:04:50] is sort of your, your patients so that, you know, like to to be known [01:04:55] as the world’s most famous brain surgeon. Some guy is losing his family. [01:05:00] Yeah. Losing his life. Because in that one area he’s seen, you [01:05:05] know, or businessman or whatever it is.

Rhona Eskander: Because the thing is, what I’m hearing is, and [01:05:10] I don’t know, maybe Hunter will agree or disagree. I think there’s to be seen for who you are [01:05:15] authentically, and then there’s to be seen for your ego. And it’s like you’ve got to work out which is completing [01:05:20] because there is enough to be seen. Like, sure. Like I my ego [01:05:25] when I know now when I’m like seen by i.e. being validated on social media, that’s that’s [01:05:30] completing my ego. What completes like my soul is when someone sees me [01:05:35] like.

[TRANSITION]: The real.

Payman Langroudi: Seven best friends. Isn’t that enough?

Rhona Eskander: No, but I think it’s different because sometimes [01:05:40] my seven best friends don’t see me. And sometimes people can open up something in you. And [01:05:45] that’s that’s the interesting thing, because I came back from the retreat, I was like, oh [01:05:50] my God, I felt so seen. I felt so loved. I felt like I had this glass bubble around me. No drugs, no [01:05:55] psychedelic, nothing. Just pure like feeling like seen and loved for who I authentically am. [01:06:00] And I came home and, you know, I decompressed and I tried to integrate and [01:06:05] stuff. And then I decided to see a few, like, girlfriends and stuff that evening. I love them, they’re amazing people. [01:06:10] They didn’t do anything wrong. Do I feel they see me in the way that I felt seen that day? It’s completely different. [01:06:15]

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Hunter Shepherd: Where were you at? No, sorry.

Rhona Eskander: No. I’ve heard lots about Nesara. I would [01:06:20] have loved it. This was just. This was actually just in in the UK this weekend. You know, with my brother, this [01:06:25] was just a kind of weekend away. But again, when I go to Costa Rica, when I went to Costa [01:06:30] Rica, I mean, look la for me, people speak the language that I speak, right. Like it’s [01:06:35] true. But yes, I really enjoy people’s ability to communicate [01:06:40] and I feel there’s people that have done the work. What I’m struggling with in dentistry at the [01:06:45] moment is that the corporate setup of running a business doesn’t align [01:06:50] with who I am inside. That’s the real problem, and he knows I have a lot of empathy [01:06:55] and compassion in the way that I speak. But that’s not always well received with people that have never done [01:07:00] work on themselves, they’re like, what the hell is she talking about? Or like, why is she, you know, [01:07:05] so I think, you know, that’s kind of that that’s what I find difficult. But people that have been [01:07:10] in recovery or doing like you have to do such an immense amount of work. And that’s why I have like, mad [01:07:15] respect, because you’re really stripping away every layer to understand why you got [01:07:20] to where you were.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: No, a big part of recovery is like humility [01:07:25] as well. Like if you’re living in ego, like it’s a dangerous place to be for somebody [01:07:30] in recovery, you know, or anybody, but especially in recovery. Uh, and you were talking [01:07:35] about, like, social media and feeling validated and all that. It’s it’s funny.

Rhona Eskander: It’s my addiction. It’s [01:07:40] my addiction. Because if I don’t get validated on social media, it’s like this self-fulfilling prophecy. [01:07:45] I’m not good enough.

[TRANSITION]: I mean.

Hunter Shepherd: I love it as well. Uh, I mean, it does feel good, [01:07:50] especially if you’re, like, going viral and getting, you know, engagement and all of that. But [01:07:55] like, in, in the industry that I’m in, I’m well known because of my [01:08:00] social media presence, because not a lot of people have that, like in the treatment industry. But I, I’m [01:08:05] so I try to remain so humble about it. My friends like laugh at me, like we’ll go to conferences and people [01:08:10] are like, I just I’ve seen you somewhere before. And then my friends are like, yeah, we know where, [01:08:15] you know. But I try not to, like, talk about it. And you got to remain humble as well. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: It’s really important. [01:08:20]

[TRANSITION]: For you to do that.

Rhona Eskander: So you said you got a business partner who’s somebody that you’re friends [01:08:25] with. So what does he do in the business?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. So he he’s actually the the case manager. Yeah. [01:08:30] He’s educated and trained and all of that. He’s more of that type of person [01:08:35] like, you know, has a college education. Straight A’s like super organised. [01:08:40] Whereas I’m like kind of like the go out and like get it done and market.

Rhona Eskander: The BTS [01:08:45] behind the scenes.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah yeah kind of yeah, yeah. What she you know, he has like a [01:08:50] social media presence as well and he like puts himself out there. But when it comes to our work [01:08:55] he’s like definitely the stuff.

[TRANSITION]: He’s the.

Rhona Eskander: Adhd. We like to be creative. I’m like, I have.

[TRANSITION]: No.

Rhona Eskander: Idea where my accounts [01:09:00] are. You know what I mean? Like.

Payman Langroudi: If you were the king of the world and [01:09:05] you could change a couple of things about the prison system, the [01:09:10] pharmacist, and like what? What what comes to mind when I say that? If you could make [01:09:15] a couple of changes to make the world a better place in this, in this area, I mean.

[TRANSITION]: I [01:09:20] think that.

Hunter Shepherd: You know, I would it would definitely piss a lot of people off, but I would [01:09:25] definitely follow like the, the lead of, you know, places like Portugal where it’s like, [01:09:30] you know, decriminalise. Yeah. Yeah, only with the purpose of [01:09:35] making treatment better and more affordable and easier [01:09:40] to access and making that mandatory in some ways because I, I’m [01:09:45] a firm believer in, you know, actually if treatment were a requirement for [01:09:50] addicts instead of prison, you know, as an alternative of prison, you know, a lot [01:09:55] more people would get get better. Um, so that’s like the first thing I would do is like, [01:10:00] stop funding addicts going to prison and fund them having mandatory [01:10:05] treatment instead. And then also that way, you know, you don’t have to live with [01:10:10] the a record of, you know, criminal record of being an addict for the rest of your [01:10:15] life, you know, and you have the ability to actually get help, you know.

Rhona Eskander: That’s why the guy had.

[TRANSITION]: Guilt. Yeah. For that. Yeah. [01:10:20]

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. Because, I mean, there are so many people that I know [01:10:25] that have got sober and because of their record, they’re not able to travel [01:10:30] to certain places that they want to. Like, you can’t go to America, you can’t go to Australia, you [01:10:35] know, you can’t go to Canada.

Payman Langroudi: Get a certain job or yeah, it is. Right.

Hunter Shepherd: 100%, I mean, [01:10:40] I think no matter what, though, like, I know tons of, like, people that are felons that are like, [01:10:45] super successful and, you know, hard working and all of that. So I feel like [01:10:50] you shouldn’t let your, your history or criminal record like, define like who you are. [01:10:55] Like you can still find a career and all of that. I mean, maybe the UK is a bit a bit more harsh [01:11:00] on stuff like that, but in America we’re actually.

Rhona Eskander: Your testament, your testament to [01:11:05] everybody that tries to become a victim of their own circumstances and their reality. [01:11:10] Sure, it might be harder, but it doesn’t mean that you can’t do it. It goes for anybody that you know might have come [01:11:15] from a broken home or an abused. Like it’s really hard to come out a better person, [01:11:20] but you can do it and you’re a testament to that. And we hear these stories all the time. You know, I think that’s the key thing, [01:11:25] uh, you know, you have, but you have to be willing to put in the time, the work and be committed to [01:11:30] that. I think that’s absolutely key. So what does the future hold?

Hunter Shepherd: I’m just going [01:11:35] to keep creating content and keep helping people and build my team bigger [01:11:40] and get better at what I do and just continue to try to make a difference, you know? [01:11:45] Yeah, I mean, that’s the most fulfilling thing to me is, you know, when people message me [01:11:50] two years later and they say, you know, I’m still sober, I’m living a good life. And or family members [01:11:55] message me saying, thank you for what you’ve done. And, uh, to me, that’s like, worth more than anything [01:12:00] in the world.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How does someone get in touch with you? Yes.

Hunter Shepherd: Um, I [01:12:05] have a website. Uh, Hunter Michael Shepherd. Com that’s also, like, on all social media [01:12:10] platforms. Hunter Michael Shepherd, you can find me on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook. [01:12:15] I post literally everywhere, and I’m actually the one that responds to every single [01:12:20] message as well. Um, I have an assistant that reminds me sometimes, but I’m the one that [01:12:25] responds to every message, sometimes hundreds a month. But I’m going through every single one if I [01:12:30] can, and responding.

Payman Langroudi: To the name of the company or the service.

Hunter Shepherd: Uh, yeah. So it’s called, uh, White Oak [01:12:35] Case Management. And then also I work, uh, the, the facility I [01:12:40] work directly at is called Oak Forest Recovery, and that’s in Thousand Oaks, California. [01:12:45]

[TRANSITION]: Amazing.

Rhona Eskander: Hunter. It’s been such an honour. I’m honestly so privileged [01:12:50] that we’ve had our first from like the other Side of the pond guest who’s been incredibly inspirational [01:12:55] and, you know, an incredible storyteller. And so, so, so, so [01:13:00] wonderful. So thank you very much. And I’ve loved it.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks a lot. Yeah. Thank you.

Todd Williams: I tell people this a lot of times it’s not what we teach, it’s what we unleash in [00:00:05] someone. And I say that to you as a leader, too. We walk into work, [00:00:10] and I feel like sometimes we put on a brain eraser and we forget [00:00:15] this. We relearn what we already know [00:00:20] outside of work. You know as well as I do with your kids. [00:00:25] It’s connection, you know that. Yeah. It’s not the things [00:00:30] you. How how do your kids know you love them? Well, I buy them nice things. Um, they [00:00:35] appreciate that, I’m sure. But that’s not the love. How do they know you [00:00:40] love them? How do your friends and family know you love them? [00:00:45] Because you connect with them? Then we walk into work and we’re like, that’ll never work. It does [00:00:50] work. I remember we used to say this in hospitals all the time. We would say it’s [00:00:55] the weirdest disconnect. We would sit in large leadership meetings and we would say, well, what [00:01:00] does the community want from a hospital? What does the community want? We need to study [00:01:05] the community. And I remember thinking to myself, where do you all live? Like you’re [00:01:10] you’re acting like this community is this other planet. [00:01:15] But when we leave work, we go get in the car and drive into said community [00:01:20] of which we are a member. Why do we come into work and now look [00:01:25] back at literally our neighbours like it’s a species from another planet? Bring [00:01:30] the best version of you into work and watch how many things you suddenly understand.

[VOICE]: This [00:01:35] is Dental [00:01:40] Leaders. The podcast where you get to go [00:01:45] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:01:55]

Prav Solanki: It gives me great pleasure to introduce [00:02:00] Todd Williams to the Dental Leaders Podcast. And guys, [00:02:05] by way of introduction, really, it was a chance meeting [00:02:10] with Todd because Dev Patel from the Dental beauty group sent me a message [00:02:15] and goes, hey Prav, do you fancy coming along to this two day retreat? We’ve got this guy called [00:02:20] Todd Williams coming along, and he’s like a life changing motivational speaker [00:02:25] type guy. And then I got his bio in my in my, um, email, [00:02:30] and I read it and skimmed over it and thought, yeah, some, some, some old [00:02:35] guy who’s into hotels and stuff like that. And I just thought to myself, do you know what? I’m a busy guy. [00:02:40] I feel obliged to turn up to this two day retreat [00:02:45] because dev was paying for the hotel. It almost felt like, um, [00:02:50] you know, almost like a hospitality thing that an a favour. And I kind of it [00:02:55] felt like this is two days. I’m never going to get back again. On what [00:03:00] a waste of time this is going to be. Right. And Todd, that’s that that that really is my honest. [00:03:05] Yeah I even told dev about this. Right. And he said, geez, I’m glad that that played out [00:03:10] for you, Prav. And let me tell you, the following two days [00:03:15] were absolutely game changing for me, right? I have listened to [00:03:20] so many people motivational speakers on a stage, in person, networking [00:03:25] masterminds paid thousands to be in the room with such people, [00:03:30] right? And I can honestly say that the time I spent with you, Todd, [00:03:35] and in that room where you engaged us for the full two days [00:03:40] was game changing on many levels, and you really made me think. [00:03:45]

Prav Solanki: Really, really made me think about work, about my own personal life. [00:03:50] And and do you know what? My brain was popping throughout. And I’ll tell you why. [00:03:55] Because of how you related to my life and whatnot. But but there were other things, [00:04:00] right? I do a bit of speaking on stage, right? Nowhere near as much as you talk. But I was [00:04:05] sat there going, this guy hasn’t shown me a single slide in two days and [00:04:10] he ran on time. How the hell does this guy do that, right? But listen, I’m [00:04:15] gonna I’m gonna shut up and let you get on with it. Todd. I mean, um, you know, in [00:04:20] summary, Todd’s the guy behind, you know, some of the largest [00:04:25] and most successful Four Seasons hotels in North America. Hospital background. [00:04:30] Um. Amazing stories, amazing storyteller. [00:04:35] Um, so, Todd, welcome to the Dental Leaders podcast.

Todd Williams: Thank you very much. [00:04:40] It’s an honour.

Prav Solanki: And I just. Todd, I’d just like to start by understanding [00:04:45] your background. Growing up as a little boy, what your childhood was like, [00:04:50] and just just paint your story for me growing up as a kid. Yeah. [00:04:55]

Todd Williams: Um, thank you, by the way, for that introduction. That’s. It’s fun to hear. I think my favourite [00:05:00] thing is those conversions. You know, when somebody has the doubts [00:05:05] and has a guard up. So I appreciate that. My childhood [00:05:10] was, you know, I grew up in Northern California, an only [00:05:15] child with parents that had a huge age difference. So my parents had a 30 year [00:05:20] age difference, three zero. And I didn’t, you know, as a kid, you don’t know [00:05:25] that’s different. You don’t know that’s unusual. And my parents were funny. They they [00:05:30] I know they didn’t want me to be teased at school. So they never really talked about my their [00:05:35] age. I knew there was a difference, but I didn’t know how much. And so when kids at school [00:05:40] had asked me, they’d see me with my parents and they’d say, how old’s your dad? I’d say, I don’t know. And they [00:05:45] always thought I was kidding, but I really did not know how old my dad was. And, um, I [00:05:50] would get these funny moments along the way where, you know, we’d be somewhere and I’d be looking at a [00:05:55] souvenir I wanted to buy or something on a vacation. And I remember the salesperson would, like, look at me and look [00:06:00] over and go, why don’t you go ask your grandfather if he wants to get it for you? And I’m like, my grandfather’s not [00:06:05] here.

Todd Williams: Like, what are you looking at? And I still couldn’t understand what they were saying. But [00:06:10] with a dad who was so much older, he retired when I was a little kid. [00:06:15] And so I joked sometimes that I didn’t really grow up with a super strong work [00:06:20] ethic. I grew up with more of a retirement ethic, like, what do you want to do when you grow up? I said, retire, [00:06:25] it’s a job my dad has. It’s a good one. And um, I watched, [00:06:30] I think as a kid, it’s it’s at that age [00:06:35] and at that time in society that the phrase I remember hearing so much growing up was the child [00:06:40] is to be seen, not heard. And so a lot of times, my mom, [00:06:45] she liked to be a host, and she would make dinner for my dad and his friends. [00:06:50] So we dinner parties, nothing fancy, but just people coming over for dinner was sort of a regular [00:06:55] thing, and the people who came over for dinner tended to be in my dad’s circle. [00:07:00] And so basically, I grew up around old people and [00:07:05] with that notion of being seen, not heard.

Todd Williams: I grew up listening [00:07:10] to old people. And, you know, they say there’s a difference between knowledge and [00:07:15] wisdom, right? Knowledge is knowing. A tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting [00:07:20] it in fruit salad. It’s what you learn along the way. And so [00:07:25] what I realised is I was sitting at a table with a lot of wisdom. Time tested [00:07:30] things these individuals had learned in life. But of course, as a little kid, I don’t realise [00:07:35] it’s wisdom. I just think it’s old people talking. And I listened and I listened and [00:07:40] I listened, and I think that really shaped a lot of who I became was hearing [00:07:45] kind of the end of the book over and over and over, and my work, you know, paralleled [00:07:50] that. But as a kid, that’s that’s what I saw as old people. And yeah, I remember sometimes, you [00:07:55] know, I it was very familiar. We, I would call everybody uncle and so I’d be [00:08:00] like, oh, it’s, you know, Uncle Jim coming to dinner tonight like he always does. And I’d kind of get the message [00:08:05] Uncle Jim wasn’t coming tonight and never again. And so death to [00:08:10] me wasn’t ever seen as a sad thing. It was just a fact of life. And you.

Prav Solanki: Saw a lot [00:08:15] because you saw a lot of it as a kid.

Todd Williams: Right? Saw a lot of it. Yeah. Saw a lot of people pass on. [00:08:20] And, you know, I would just it was [00:08:25] always explained to me that they lived a good life and they wouldn’t be coming anymore. And I was too young [00:08:30] to really be devastated by that. It was more just, oh, bummer, really enjoyed [00:08:35] him, but that was about it. I liked his stories, but, um, what [00:08:40] I think I look back at and realise now is I was hearing the end of the book, [00:08:45] if you will, over and over. You know, we all love a good book. It’s got the opening, it’s got the middle, [00:08:50] it’s got all those parts that confuse you. And then it’s hopefully at the end tied together with a [00:08:55] bit of a wow. And that’s what makes you say, this was a good book. So being around elderly people, [00:09:00] I feel like I was getting the end of the book over and over and over, and [00:09:05] that really shaped how I entered into the rest of life, which wasn’t smooth. [00:09:10] And so was it.

Prav Solanki: As a kid growing up, were you different to the other kids? [00:09:15] You were surrounded by adults all the time, you know, funny, funny. You mention that, [00:09:20] right? Because even when we have guests around the house, we make it [00:09:25] very clear that the kids must come and socialise with the adults. They must sit [00:09:30] down at dinner, they must ask questions and engage, just like adults would, rather than [00:09:35] go and disappear in the lounge and play on their toys or whatever. Right? We want them to be a part [00:09:40] of that grown up conversation. Yeah. And what’s really clear, I’ve got I’ve got two sets of kids, [00:09:45] the older ones and the younger ones, and the one thing that people say about about [00:09:50] the older ones, the younger ones are too young yet, is that they’re really good at interacting with [00:09:55] adults. Right. And, you know, like they’ll go into a room and, you know, even [00:10:00] at the age of like 10 or 11, they’ll ask an adult, so how are you? How is your day to day, [00:10:05] what have you been up to this week. And it’s like ten year old kids asking me that, but it’s because [00:10:10] they’ve been exposed to that, right? How did that play out for you as a as a kid? [00:10:15] Did people ever make any comments like that? Were you sort of mature beyond your years in [00:10:20] that, in that way?

Todd Williams: I wish I’d been raised like that where I got those social skills earlier. [00:10:25] I think I had to do a little bit of Trial by Fire with that. I, [00:10:30] I was a great listener, but I didn’t know how to interact. And the [00:10:35] whole children are to be seen, not heard, didn’t teach me how to ask [00:10:40] those questions and how to engage. The. The funny side of it is, I think when I went out into [00:10:45] society, I would gravitate towards the adults. So [00:10:50] I would tend to, you know, if we were at an event where it was now families together [00:10:55] and there was plenty of kids playing. Being an only child, first of all, I wasn’t great [00:11:00] at the team. Sports didn’t quite understand the dynamic, but I also wasn’t maybe [00:11:05] at ease with some of those conversations. So I would kind of gravitate towards the adults. And [00:11:10] so I just that was sort of my home was listening and observing the adults. [00:11:15] I think what I heard a lot growing up was he’s such a polite boy, you know, he’s he’s got good [00:11:20] manners, but I don’t think it well behaved. Yeah. Um, well trained, [00:11:25] but I no, I don’t think there was a lot of comments about the interactions because they just weren’t. [00:11:30] I was just, you know, I was the observer and then.

Prav Solanki: So how did that [00:11:35] sort of then play out school wise? We were a studious kid. We academic. [00:11:40] What sort of school did you go to? What sort of hobbies were you into [00:11:45] as a as a kid?

Todd Williams: Yeah, that’s that’s a funny question, because I think [00:11:50] that style of observation stayed with me to. [00:11:55] So a couple of things come to mind when you say that. But as I got to school and [00:12:00] it took me, you know, this is the kind of thing you see in retrospect. But I look back now, [00:12:05] I wasn’t studious, but I was paying hyper attention [00:12:10] in class. Mhm. But I wasn’t paying attention to what everybody else was. [00:12:15] And I you know, fast forward a little bit. When I got to college, you know, when my dad retired [00:12:20] he’d put aside money for college. But by the time I got to college age, [00:12:25] his money was barely enough to pay for books. So I had to do some city college [00:12:30] and some general education to get into the college I wanted to get to, and [00:12:35] I had to work hard to get into that. And my dad, [00:12:40] I was probably the only kid in my school [00:12:45] that sort of got in trouble for getting into college. My dad was [00:12:50] when he was a young kid. He he had two brothers. One of his brothers [00:12:55] died from leukaemia when he was young. My dad was the middle brother. So he kind [00:13:00] of took over and helped raise the younger brother. And he would tell me these stories of when he was 12 and 13, [00:13:05] you know, riding an Indian motorcycle that shifted on the tank to deliver [00:13:10] things for a pharmacy. You know, that was he was working. That was his first job. [00:13:15]

Todd Williams: And so my dad grew up with that. You do the basic schooling and then you get into the workplace. [00:13:20] The workplace will teach you. The workplace is where all the lessons are, etc.. So [00:13:25] by the time I came along and, you know, college age, I’m like, dad, I’m going to go to this college and this is how [00:13:30] much it cost. And in my dad’s world, that was sort of a waste of time. You know, you’re going to go [00:13:35] spend thousands and thousands of dollars to come out and go into the workplace and learn what you could [00:13:40] have learned had you just skipped that big expenditure. But the funny thing [00:13:45] is, when I finally got to college, I remember I was sitting in this one [00:13:50] lecture hall and I was just I was sort of thinking to myself, oh, look at that. [00:13:55] That’s what a student looks like when they’re listening to the teacher. That’s a teacher teaching [00:14:00] a student. And I was observing what was happening, but [00:14:05] not from the student perspective. And so I became this observer of the situation. [00:14:10] And I would I would continue that. I would think, you know, now why does that student [00:14:15] seem to have favour with the teacher and that one doesn’t? And how come over there [00:14:20] that person made the teacher laugh? But that person almost irritated the teacher, and [00:14:25] I was I was being hyper studious, just on the wrong thing. Um, [00:14:30] ironically, I think you can see how that played out.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. So? So [00:14:35] so you were you mentioned this earlier, and now you’ve just sort of elaborated on that, which [00:14:40] is you weren’t listening to the teacher. You weren’t learning the maths or [00:14:45] the English or the chemistry or the science, but you were reading the room. It was learning.

Todd Williams: People. [00:14:50]

Prav Solanki: And you was observing people. Yeah. In the situation. Right? Yeah. Yeah. [00:14:55] Interesting.

Todd Williams: And I, I’ve looked back a million times [00:15:00] and I could have never predicted this or planned that, but that turned out to be the most [00:15:05] valuable lesson I could ever take. Take away from [00:15:10] school, take away from life was just observing people, paying attention to what [00:15:15] makes them tick, what throws them off course, what engages people? What? [00:15:20] What helps people believe in themselves? Those kind of things [00:15:25] were what I was paying attention to. No grand vision [00:15:30] at that time. It was just I think it was a product of my upbringing, the environment. [00:15:35] Just learn to observe. And that’s.

Prav Solanki: So [00:15:40] what did you what did you study out of curiosity?

Todd Williams: Well, my first my [00:15:45] first angle, I thought for sure I wanted to be a youth minister. And it had less to do with [00:15:50] the faith side of things, the religion side of things. It was youth ministers [00:15:55] just sort of played a prominent role in my life growing up. Um, I [00:16:00] think to me they were the brothers, older brothers that I didn’t have. Being an only child. [00:16:05] Um, I think I thought of them as these individuals who, you know, [00:16:10] grade school and high school can be such a transformative time for [00:16:15] a kid. They can can throw you off. And youth ministers to me were sort [00:16:20] of this beacon of stability in that vulnerable time of my life. [00:16:25] So I was inspired by that, and I wanted to go off and become a beacon of stability [00:16:30] for others. And I didn’t didn’t pan out [00:16:35] the way I thought it was going to. And as I tried to figure out what I was going to do with [00:16:40] my life, I had a friend suggest I take a job in a hospital. And I [00:16:45] thought, there’s nothing in my background. Nothing. Nothing in my education [00:16:50] that has steered me towards health care. And he he said, there’s non-hospital [00:16:55] jobs in a hospital, which I think was his way of saying nonclinical.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, yeah yeah, [00:17:00] yeah. How old were you then, Todd?

Todd Williams: Uh, that was, that was post-college. So I was [00:17:05] in my early 20s.

Prav Solanki: So early 20s. You’ve been to college, studied [00:17:10] what did you actually studied?

Todd Williams: Religious studies. I was a yeah, [00:17:15] theology. Interesting.

Prav Solanki: So you’d done religious studies at college? Um, [00:17:20] and then someone said, go get a job in a hospital doing non-hospital things. [00:17:25] Yeah.

Todd Williams: While you figure out what you’re going to do with this background in in religion. [00:17:30] But the person who said it to me, they, [00:17:35] you know, when somebody says something to you and you know, there’s more they want to say, but they can’t, [00:17:40] but you can kind of see it in their eyes. So this person who was saying, just take a job in a hospital [00:17:45] and I was, you know, I can’t they’re like, just take a job in the hospital and I okay, [00:17:50] this person seems pretty convinced this is going to be good for me. So [00:17:55] and I need to find a job while I figure out what I’m going to do. So I took a job and I got a very it [00:18:00] was a non-clinical job, but it was helping out in the emergency room. And [00:18:05] I quickly saw the core of what I was looking [00:18:10] for in youth ministry, and that was people coming into the emergency [00:18:15] room around their most vulnerable day. And they’re really looking at you to be [00:18:20] stable while they’re going through this. And I [00:18:25] saw quickly in the colleagues that I was working with that they were the beacon of stability [00:18:30] to this person in trauma to this person scared to death. And [00:18:35] I realised then that’s why my friend was pushing me towards this. He’s like I, you know, I think [00:18:40] he understood the essence of what I wanted to do. And he saw that as an area of health care [00:18:45] that I could or he saw health care as an area where I could let that play out. So [00:18:50] I fell in love with it.

Prav Solanki: Who was this friend, Todd? Who was who was this person? Who? He was a.

Todd Williams: Friend that [00:18:55] I grew up with. And we ended up at the same college, which was kind of ironic [00:19:00] because we didn’t aim at that. That was just the way our lives went, and somehow we both ended up at the [00:19:05] same place, and we’re still friends to this day.

Prav Solanki: Amazing. So so you [00:19:10] went you end up doing this and you find this role where you are part [00:19:15] of that team of beacons of stability, right? For these people who are really vulnerable, just [00:19:20] paint a picture of me of what did you see in those first days, years, [00:19:25] whatever it is was that you were working with. Tell me some stories about the patients [00:19:30] you saw and perhaps what impacts you saw people having on their [00:19:35] lives, and maybe what impact you might have had on on certain patients. [00:19:40] Um, yeah. During that time.

Todd Williams: Wow. I can think of [00:19:45] a story literally comes to mind for each one of those. For me, one of the first things I [00:19:50] remember was some of the patients coming into the emergency room were so [00:19:55] agitated, just scared. But they’re fighting, you know, they’ve they’re taking [00:20:00] swings at you. And I hadn’t adjusted to this yet. And so [00:20:05] I, you know, I took offence to that. And they’re swinging at me. I’ll [00:20:10] swing back and um, I remember [00:20:15] I look at my colleagues, my co-workers, and they weren’t [00:20:20] being riled as much as I was. And I think I learned one of the [00:20:25] biggest lessons right then and there. And it’s just played out over and over in life. I [00:20:30] was listening to I the way I say it today is I was listening to the mouth, and [00:20:35] the mouth of the patient might have been saying, get the hell out of here. Get away! Leave. But [00:20:40] my colleagues were listening to their eyes, and I realised a lot of times their eyes were saying, [00:20:45] how did I get in this situation? I’m terrified. Don’t leave me literally contradicting [00:20:50] what the mouth was saying. And so I was being very superficial and just hearing the words and getting [00:20:55] offended. But my colleagues were looking into the eyes and seeing a very vulnerable person and responding [00:21:00] through their steadfast gaze that I’ve got you. And [00:21:05] that was one of the first big lessons for me. And I know Simon Sinek says [00:21:10] sometimes that the listening is not the act of hearing.

Todd Williams: It’s [00:21:15] the art of understanding. And I realised looking back, that’s what my team [00:21:20] was doing. They were understanding the patient, I was hearing them, but they were understanding that. And so [00:21:25] learning that was was a big moment for me and helped me fall in love with the role [00:21:30] even more. A second part of it, I later transitioned out of the emergency [00:21:35] room, and I ended up in a trained role in the physical therapy team. And [00:21:40] back in those days, wound care was a part of physical therapy. [00:21:45] It’s not today. It’s its own department. But wound care is interesting because a lot of [00:21:50] times the patients come in and are outpatients. They’re out there functioning in life, but they’ve [00:21:55] got this wound that isn’t healing. And so they come in to be treated. And [00:22:00] a lot of times it starts off with the whirlpool treatment, which means you’re putting this [00:22:05] wound into a whirlpool and then they sit for 20 minutes, and [00:22:10] it’s not like the rest of PT where you’re doing exercises throughout the whole visit. [00:22:15] There’s a bit of waiting, and I remember sometimes the patients would come back and, you know, [00:22:20] you’d unwrap this wound on their leg and lift their leg and help them set [00:22:25] it into the water. Now you’ve got 20 minutes of awkward time. And I think a lot [00:22:30] of times the therapists would go and start charting or the patient would read a book. And it was kind [00:22:35] of this, okay, let’s just be polite and quiet for 20 minutes until we can do what we [00:22:40] do and begin to treat the wound after the whirlpool time.

Todd Williams: But I remember [00:22:45] there was one patient in particular that really helped me see the patient experience differently. [00:22:50] He would come in and as we would, he had a wound on his lower leg down by his foot. [00:22:55] He wasn’t healing. It was. He was a diabetic, and it was an accidental [00:23:00] wound that now wouldn’t heal. And he was in danger of losing his, uh, leg [00:23:05] below the knee. And he would come in and as we would unwrap [00:23:10] his foot, he would look anywhere but his foot. [00:23:15] And I, in the beginning thought it was for obvious reasons. He didn’t want to see the wound. What [00:23:20] I realised is when I would use those 20 minutes to sit and talk with him, I [00:23:25] saw the human attached to the wound. And he told me one time he says, [00:23:30] you know, Todd, he goes, I want to walk my daughter down the aisle. My [00:23:35] head wants to walk her down the aisle. My heart, my soul, every ounce of me and my body’s [00:23:40] betraying me. And I don’t understand why I can’t control that. And [00:23:45] he said, I look away because it’s so frustrating to me. And I begin [00:23:50] to realise there’s a story, a big story behind these patients. It’s not just [00:23:55] I accidentally hurt myself and now it’s not healing. It’s [00:24:00] much deeper than that.

Prav Solanki: Can I ask you a quick question? Because it’s just come [00:24:05] to my mind, right? Sure. Why did he open up to you?

Todd Williams: I think [00:24:10] I was the one who would sit and talk with him when he was there. I, unlike, [00:24:15] maybe it went back to my schooling, but charting felt like [00:24:20] work, so I would rather where everybody else put off the interactions with the patient [00:24:25] and would go hide behind the clinical information in the chart. I’d put off the charting and go [00:24:30] sit with the patient.

Prav Solanki: Because he’s telling you something quite deep now, right? He’s there because [00:24:35] he’s got an ulcer on his leg or a wound that’s not healing. And he’s now [00:24:40] telling you about sunshine and rainbows or his dream that he may think’s not going to come true. [00:24:45] Yeah. Um, and you’re just the guy bathing his foot. Just listening.

Todd Williams: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Just [00:24:50] listening. Um, but he felt comfortable enough to open up to you at that [00:24:55] at that point.

Todd Williams: Yeah, and And I learned that, I think along the way, a lot of times [00:25:00] they’re so vulnerable that it’s almost like, what have I got to lose? You know, you already know everything about [00:25:05] me. You know, every stat regarding my, you know, physical condition. [00:25:10] You’ve got a chart. So I might as well just give you the last thing that’s in my heart and my mind, too. So [00:25:15] opening up, I saw that quite a bit. And I think there’s [00:25:20] a lot of patients that want to open up because there’s so much anxiety when you come into [00:25:25] a clinical situation. Yeah, much more than what we think. It’s not [00:25:30] just about the wound. It’s that’s amplifying everything else you’re dealing with. And so [00:25:35] I think it was just a matter of being receptive to that and taking the time to listen to [00:25:40] the patient or even see the patient. As you know, later on, you [00:25:45] see this in hospitals all the time. You’ll hear a team refer to, oh, the hip down in room 424, [00:25:50] the knee down in room 423. And there’s not a knee in [00:25:55] that room. There’s a human with a life that happens to have. [00:26:00] Have a knee. Something going on with their knee. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The [00:26:05] thought.

Prav Solanki: The reason why I stopped you and asked you that question is, is in the world of dentistry, [00:26:10] which is sort of my world and yours as well, right? Is that, um, getting [00:26:15] patients to open up about why they’re here? Um, it’s [00:26:20] rarely that I want a beautiful smile or I want nice [00:26:25] looking teeth. Right. There’s more to it than that, right? It’s the fact that I talk with [00:26:30] my hand over my mouth, or I can’t eat into a steak or I’m embarrassed [00:26:35] or whatever, right? It gives them anxiety or lack of self-esteem and confidence. And [00:26:40] sometimes we talk about how do you get that out of the patient, right. Because it doesn’t come naturally [00:26:45] to every clinician, right. That once you once that patient opens up to you about [00:26:50] why they’re there. Mhm. Then the sales process is no longer a sales [00:26:55] process. Right. It’s just a recommendation, a human interaction. [00:27:00] Yeah. And whatnot. Right. And it seems like from the early days and [00:27:05] and that’s why I asked the question is these patients are opening up to you, but all you’re doing is [00:27:10] soaking their foot in water, right. There must be something deeper there that that [00:27:15] was the relationship between you and the patient that allowed them to [00:27:20] spill the beans. So.

Todd Williams: Yeah, I think that’s a really good point. And I’m glad [00:27:25] you honed in on that, because I do think there is an art to getting someone [00:27:30] to open up. And I think it’s a little bit it’s [00:27:35] asking the right questions, and the right questions are rarely [00:27:40] what we think are the right questions. You know, it’s you think about the news [00:27:45] and, you know, there’s a traumatic car accident. And the reporter walks up and says, how are you feeling? [00:27:50] The most obvious question you could ever ask. And [00:27:55] I think sometimes we do that, you know, how do you feel about your foot? How do you feel about [00:28:00] the situation? How do you feel about your treatment? But I think sometimes [00:28:05] just pulling back to the same question you would ask if you weren’t in that scenario, and And it’s [00:28:10] asking someone how how their day is, but with a sincerity, with [00:28:15] an honest sincerity. And I think that’s the key. It’s not, you know, if there’s something [00:28:20] I’ve learned over the years, it’s rarely what you do. It’s how you do it [00:28:25] that makes the biggest difference. And being able to ask somebody [00:28:30] how they’re doing, but asking that from a really genuine place where they hear [00:28:35] it differently, they might have heard it ten times that day already, 20 times already. [00:28:40] But the day you ask it, you said it in a way.

Todd Williams: There was something. It was your body [00:28:45] language. It was your tone of voice. But you said, how how are you today? And [00:28:50] there’s a little bit of something different. And the person you can see, they look at you and it’s almost like their eyes well up. [00:28:55] And no one’s asked me. I’m not okay. I’m scared. [00:29:00] What are you scared about? And it’s that tone. And it’s just that it’s that gentle. [00:29:05] Tell me more, tell me more. And people. That’s when the opening, [00:29:10] the opening up happens. So you’re right. It’s not just that they sit down in this whirlpool and spill [00:29:15] the beans. There’s there’s that kindness key. Yeah. [00:29:20] I remember hearing years ago talking about love, just being a loving person, a kind person. [00:29:25] They said love is the master key of connection. And [00:29:30] I think if you take that sentence, you know, in a grandiose way it sounds over [00:29:35] the top. But if you just think about it, what it’s really saying is just kindness unlocks [00:29:40] people. Yeah. And it’s getting more and more rare in society. So [00:29:45] I think being kind and getting these patients to you’re not coming [00:29:50] in with a mission. You’re coming in human first. Mission [00:29:55] second. And I think that was probably something [00:30:00] that I had learned along the way, because with my dad being retired, I [00:30:05] didn’t hear, here’s the CEO of this.

Todd Williams: This is the president of this. This is the [00:30:10] associate director of this. I never heard titles and I [00:30:15] just heard people. I would later learn what they did, but I first met [00:30:20] them as a human, and then I found out what they did. I met them as a human. Then I found out what they [00:30:25] did. And I think that’s a tremendous skill set to develop. Find [00:30:30] out the human, find out who the person is in front of you, but also just [00:30:35] as important, if not more important. Help them understand the human in front of them. [00:30:40] And people really want to know. You know, you said a minute ago about the sales [00:30:45] process takes care of itself. If I’m a human that’s connected with you, and I’ve truly [00:30:50] helped you share your needs, and I have something that actually, genuinely [00:30:55] is a solution to your situation. That’s the most natural fit [00:31:00] on Earth. You create a lifelong fan, but you have to be able to [00:31:05] trust that putting your title aside, putting your sales goals aside and connecting [00:31:10] is the first pure step. And I don’t think [00:31:15] we’re good at that. I know we’re not good at that. I see it all the time, people. Hey, how are you? Tell me about yourself. [00:31:20] Anyways, here’s what I have for you. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Back [00:31:25] to your story, Todd, because I know I’ve pulled you away from that. Right. So, um, back [00:31:30] to your story about this guy who wanted to walk his, um.

Todd Williams: Walk his daughter [00:31:35] down the aisle.

Prav Solanki: Down the aisle. Right?

Todd Williams: Yeah, I he he continued [00:31:40] to be treated and just out of respect, I can save [00:31:45] his story, but But he his his health continued to decline until [00:31:50] a couple of years later. He actually passed at a far too young of an age, but [00:31:55] he set me on a course to really [00:32:00] pay attention, to get better at the patient experience. I remember [00:32:05] we had a social worker. His name was Sam. I just [00:32:10] I can still see the guy’s smile. And he came to the hospital I worked for was the largest hospital [00:32:15] between Los Angeles and San Francisco. And we had a huge [00:32:20] team. When you put all the therapy teams together physical therapy, occupational therapy, [00:32:25] speech therapy, we were 80 some odd people, which is that’s a good size for [00:32:30] a hospital. And he did this end service one day where he said, [00:32:35] it’s really important to understand that patients have a choice. And I remember a lot [00:32:40] of us thinking to ourselves, no, they don’t. They they get hurt, they [00:32:45] come here. That’s how that works. It’s a you know, first of all, our business is guaranteed because people [00:32:50] will always get sick. They’ll always be hurt. So we don’t have to worry [00:32:55] about them choosing someone else. That’s not an issue. So I think we pushed away what he was saying, [00:33:00] but he also talked about the way to help. Help [00:33:05] them choose you is to create a phenomenal patient experience. And I don’t think we took that to [00:33:10] a deep level.

Todd Williams: To us, the patient experience was also on the patient, [00:33:15] meaning if a patient had a great experience, it’s because they saw how hard we were working [00:33:20] and if they didn’t have a great experience, they didn’t realise how hard we were because somehow it was [00:33:25] always their fault, their responsibility. And you would get defensive, you know, you would get [00:33:30] these reports back, these patient, you know, comment cards and, [00:33:35] you know, if the scale was 1 to 10 for simplicity’s sake and you get a seven [00:33:40] and you remember that person coming in in a life and death situation, [00:33:45] it’s kind of hard to read that. You’re like, how am I getting a seven? What about that part where we saved [00:33:50] your life? Yeah, that. Was that an eight? Was that a nine? But I began to realise that the patient [00:33:55] experience that we were focusing on, quality [00:34:00] clinical treatment was expected. That’s [00:34:05] why they that’s what you expect. We advertise that there’s not a hospital in the nation in the, [00:34:10] in the world that says, come to us, we’re okay. Come to us. We try our best. Every [00:34:15] hospital says, come to us for phenomenal treatment. Come to us to receive the best. So when [00:34:20] I come in, that’s actually off the table. I’m expecting that. That’s that’s [00:34:25] why you do what you do for people in my situation, this is that’s over.

Prav Solanki: Standard [00:34:30] practice, right. Standard practice. You yeah. You walk into walk into Starbucks [00:34:35] and order a latte. You get a latte. It’s what you want. It’s what you expect. [00:34:40] It’s hot and it tastes like coffee and milk. Right? It’s standard.

Todd Williams: Yeah. And my [00:34:45] experience when I when you ask me, that’s a great example. You asked me how was my experience at Starbucks. [00:34:50] It’s 99% of the time going to be about how I felt while [00:34:55] I was getting that for sure.

Prav Solanki: Coffee for sure.

Todd Williams: The coffee’s not what I’m [00:35:00] rating. They all taste the same, you know, which is great. It’s consistent. That’s something [00:35:05] they have down pat. Starbucks around the world. Same drink. Yeah, but boy, day [00:35:10] to day you can go in one and feel a great experience. You can go in the next one and [00:35:15] decide never to go again. Yeah. And that’s what the patient experience was [00:35:20] truly about. And it’s still what it’s about today. And it’s amazing to me to [00:35:25] watch how many healthcare teams still focus on ways to [00:35:30] approach what I call the soft stuff in a clinical way, [00:35:35] and the soft stuff are those it’s the the part of life that we can’t measure, but we can [00:35:40] feel so true.

Prav Solanki: Todd but but I think the way [00:35:45] that clinicians are taught both at school and [00:35:50] after school and post-graduate, it’s very mechanical, right? It’s all [00:35:55] very much about, you know, what angle this rod goes in, how you do it, the [00:36:00] list of questions you need to go through to basically make sure you don’t get sued. [00:36:05] You know, you know, the consent forms, all the rest of it. The soft stuff never gets taught, [00:36:10] rarely gets discussed. Right? So then you end up in a situation [00:36:15] with the experience and those people who are better at that communication [00:36:20] piece. They may be lesser clinicians technically, but patients have a [00:36:25] better experience with them. Right.

Todd Williams: Mhm mhm. Because remember the patient doesn’t [00:36:30] understand what you’ve been trained in either. So [00:36:35] you’re more apt to match at that level. You [00:36:40] know, I’ve said that many times that we elevate ourselves to a clinical role, and [00:36:45] then we take them and elevate them to patient. And that’s where we talk. Okay. But [00:36:50] most patients aren’t hoping to become a patient. They’re here. Yeah. [00:36:55] And there was a time before you gain that knowledge you just referred to, you were here. And [00:37:00] if you don’t let go of that version of you, because that version of you actually climbed that ladder on purpose, that [00:37:05] version of you chose to become a clinician because you care. Excuse me? You [00:37:10] chose to become a professional because you want to serve others. That person [00:37:15] that drove you up the ladder is the person the patient is looking to talk to. [00:37:20] And I think if we can stop looking at our clinical role as a destination [00:37:25] and realise it was to achieve something that we then bring home and we connect heart first, [00:37:30] title second, we do a lot better. And I think that’s the gist of what you [00:37:35] were talking about earlier, when the patients would open up. I never sat down with [00:37:40] them and said, you know, I’m your I’m your physical therapy aide here to talk about your [00:37:45] wound. I would sit down and talk about them. And [00:37:50] as a matter of fact, this same patient, he knew I was an avid cyclist [00:37:55] and we would get in long talks. He had a son who liked to bike, too. And so he would tell me about [00:38:00] his son’s cycling and I would talk about what I enjoyed was cycling. And that [00:38:05] banter, some people might say, is a waste of time. I don’t have time for that. With today’s productivity, [00:38:10] we don’t have time for that. You don’t have time not to do that because [00:38:15] the time that saves you later immeasurable. Yeah, [00:38:20] it’s that connection.

Prav Solanki: So, Todd, how did you [00:38:25] go from bathing wounds to becoming [00:38:30] the head trainer at some of the leading Four Seasons [00:38:35] hotels in the world, setting records for, you know, amazing [00:38:40] service and all the rest of it and putting these. How do you go from [00:38:45] that guy? So you go to this, this is what I want to wrap my head around and where I want to [00:38:50] get to at the end of this conversation, if we can. Todd, you start off by going to.

Todd Williams: College. [00:38:55]

Prav Solanki: And doing religious studies, and then somewhere in between [00:39:00] there and where we are today, you open who knows how many [00:39:05] Four Seasons hotels win a ton of awards and [00:39:10] change culture in places where the stats were stacked [00:39:15] against you? Yeah. How the hell did that happen?

Todd Williams: You know, it’s [00:39:20] it goes back to that. I would say literally that in service with Sam [00:39:25] kicked something off in me. And the whole patients have a choice and the patient experience and [00:39:30] the conversations I heard afterwards. And I became friends with Sam and he [00:39:35] explained more of what I was seeing. He he was he was giving [00:39:40] credibility to what I was seeing. You know, I’m I feel like that was my life was always these laboratory [00:39:45] experiments just watching and observing and making notes. Does this ring true three [00:39:50] times in a row, or was that one off? Does this seem to ring true seven out of ten times? Then this [00:39:55] becomes a behaviour worth pursuing. So I was seeing that connecting with the patient [00:40:00] really mattered. Sam was coming in and his data was showing that connecting [00:40:05] with the patient really matters. So I wanted to help help all [00:40:10] of us in healthcare get better at connecting. And I had [00:40:15] a chance to. I think today the trendy term for students is to [00:40:20] call it a gap year. But I had a chance to move to Hawaii for a year and I wasn’t going to miss [00:40:25] that. So I thought, okay, if I can, if I can live in Hawaii, I’ll go over there and [00:40:30] I’ll find a job. They have a hospital on this island, Maui, that I was going to, and I’ll get [00:40:35] a job in physical therapy and I’ll I’ll enjoy it. Well, [00:40:40] I got to Hawaii and the hospital physical therapy team was two people, [00:40:45] and so finding a job on that team was impossible.

Todd Williams: And I did a quick thought [00:40:50] and I thought, okay, if this is a year away from home in the hospital I work [00:40:55] in, I’m going to study something that’ll help me learn more about [00:41:00] the patient experience. And I had heard about luxury hotels. Didn’t [00:41:05] understand them. That is not the income bracket I grew up in. We stayed at the cheap motels [00:41:10] when we did road trips, and I knew nothing about this world. But [00:41:15] I knew this world, and I and I had a friend that I worked with in healthcare [00:41:20] that had lived in Hawaii, and I talked to him about this move, and he told [00:41:25] me how when he was there, he’d worked in hotels. And I was fascinated [00:41:30] by this group of people because they were paying so much money, almost as much as you [00:41:35] pay in a hospital, sometimes more than you pay in a hospital for really something [00:41:40] you can’t even prove you received when you check out of a hotel. I’m [00:41:45] billing you for an experience. I didn’t fix your mouth. I didn’t fix your leg, [00:41:50] I didn’t I didn’t do anything that you can take home, per se. [00:41:55] It’s just a memory. So I thought, okay, there’s got to be a lesson here. And if I’m here [00:42:00] for a year, what if I take a job with this luxury hotel brand, learn what [00:42:05] they do specifically, and then bring that back [00:42:10] to healthcare? And that was my that was my noble intention. So [00:42:15] go ahead.

Prav Solanki: What do you mean by take a job with this luxury [00:42:20] hotel? Was was that job on the table? Had you applied for this job, was it was it on the offer or was it like, [00:42:25] I’m going to give this a crack and would you have confidence you’d get it?

Todd Williams: Uh, well, [00:42:30] I had too much confidence I was going to get it more to that, but, um, I [00:42:35] yeah, way too much. But the reason it wasn’t on the table. [00:42:40] But when I got over there and realised how small the hospital was and the physical therapy team [00:42:45] was two, I thought, oh, what am I going to do for work in this year? Well, hotels [00:42:50] are everywhere. Turnover is high in hotels, traditionally very [00:42:55] transitional job. I was only there for a year, so I, I figured I would go [00:43:00] and apply for whatever was available. Bellman room service. Um, [00:43:05] you know, pool attendant. I knew that with all the hotels and [00:43:10] all the positions, there was a certain to find a job. Yeah, so [00:43:15] I didn’t know where to start. I had heard about four seasons, didn’t know the brand, [00:43:20] just heard they were better than anybody else. So I thought, well, might as well apply there [00:43:25] first. And I went and this is where the confidence came in. I sort of, I [00:43:30] obviously can’t tell the hotel that I’m only there for a year. Right. They don’t want [00:43:35] to hire somebody who right off the bat says this is temporary. But in my mind, [00:43:40] my reason for wanting to work there was so noble, right? I’m going to learn about [00:43:45] care and take it back to health care. And so in my mind, I think I just thought [00:43:50] I was going to get the job.

Todd Williams: And I sat down in the interview, I was interviewing for a front desk position. [00:43:55] And I remember the guy said to me, pretty blunt, why do you think you can work [00:44:00] here? You’re a hospital guy. I was like, oh, I hadn’t thought this through. And now I [00:44:05] was on the spot. And I thought about it for a minute, and I remember saying in the interview, I said, well, a [00:44:10] hospital is kind of like a hotel from hell. You check in against [00:44:15] your will, you’re scared. You’re in pain. My goal is to make you [00:44:20] feel safe, to make you feel that you’re in the right place, to make you feel valued, [00:44:25] to create a sense of trust. And when you’re discharged, should you someday [00:44:30] have to come back to a hospital? You choose ours. And I remember the guy in the interview said, [00:44:35] you can have the job. So. So I got hired [00:44:40] and I started at the front desk and the next I [00:44:45] mean, we can go as deep as you want, but I’ll give you an overview, please. The [00:44:50] one year turned into 16 with the brand as [00:44:55] an official employee, and I still work with them this day as a what [00:45:00] they call a preferred consultant. And I still open up a lot of the new hotels. And when I say open the [00:45:05] hotel, do the training, that kind of establishes the culture and puts it in place and takes [00:45:10] people that don’t know what Four Seasons is, hands them, the brand teaches them in a way [00:45:15] that brings out their best, so that when a guest does check in, they say, yep, this [00:45:20] is what we expected from a four seasons.

Todd Williams: The 16 years [00:45:25] really. The first five changed my life. That’s [00:45:30] that’s how I ended up in front of you. And what I really [00:45:35] learned quickly because the hotel, the front desk job scared me to death in the beginning [00:45:40] because people would check in. And, you know, I came from a health [00:45:45] care background just a month before, and I’ve been doing it for several years, [00:45:50] 11 years to be exact. And so when we talk about things in [00:45:55] a hospital, it’s very the goal is there [00:46:00] you have a wound and we are this whole team is going to do everything we can to fix this [00:46:05] wound. You have broken bones and we are going to repair those bones and rehabilitate you to get [00:46:10] you back out there to your sports that you used to do. So in a hotel, [00:46:15] I was very uncomfortable not having that. And it [00:46:20] really quick just to go back when you said clinicians are trained very [00:46:25] specifically and they’re not trained in the soft stuff, nor nor was I. I didn’t realise that my [00:46:30] upbringing was that training. I hadn’t connected the dots yet.

Prav Solanki: For sure.

Todd Williams: Because [00:46:35] and but to be honest with you, by the way, when I first got into the workplace, I sort of resented my [00:46:40] dad for a while. It was like nothing you taught me works like [00:46:45] I grew up with this, you know, just love everything and it’s going to be great. And I get [00:46:50] into the workplace and I have to understand how to move metrics and how to, you know, take [00:46:55] over the competition and be ruthless. And I didn’t know how to do that. More to that, but [00:47:00] in the hotel, I didn’t understand [00:47:05] what I was. I just talk about fake it till you make it. I’m [00:47:10] handing somebody a registration card with a tremendous fee [00:47:15] on that card. This is the nightly rate, and you’re here for seven nights. And [00:47:20] if that looks good, sign here. And I remember thinking to myself. I wouldn’t sign [00:47:25] this if I were you. Like, that’s. I don’t even understand what you’re signing for. I work at [00:47:30] the front desk. I don’t understand what you’re going to experience. I’ve never stayed in a hotel like this. To [00:47:35] me, growing up, a hotel was $49. And that’s what you did. [00:47:40] These rooms that were hundreds and hundreds and sometimes thousands and thousands of dollars [00:47:45] for a night, I didn’t get it. And they would sign these registration cards. And [00:47:50] you sometimes you could see it was still a bit of shock. They knew what they were paying, but you’d [00:47:55] still see a little bit of colour go out of their face. Because it’s a lot to ask before you [00:48:00] felt anything. But later they had me checking some of those same guests out. [00:48:05]

Todd Williams: So now I’m handling the departure and I’m showing them these bills that are tremendous. [00:48:10] It’s not just the room rate they saw at check in, it’s now the room rate plus tax. [00:48:15] And there’s you know, there’s hotels have occupancy tax plus state tax. So it’s this huge [00:48:20] tax. There’s the food and beverage. There’s the spa [00:48:25] treatments. Whatever it is. The number is much bigger than they imagined at check in. Yeah. But [00:48:30] what’s interesting is they would settle these bills with such a positivity. [00:48:35] And I would see him and I would hand this total to them and they’re like, looks great. I’m like, [00:48:40] that does that was good to you? Okay? And they would settle [00:48:45] this bill and then sometimes they would even sit there at the desk and say, hey, before we leave, could we book again while [00:48:50] we’re here? And I was like, you’re kidding me. And I remember I’d go back and I’d get the the [00:48:55] reservations team. And I’m like, this guy would like to book another vacation before he leaves. So [00:49:00] I was fascinated by this phenomenon, and I went to the trainer and I said, [00:49:05] what in the world do we do between check in and check out? [00:49:10] That makes someone go from somewhat a little bit of trepidation to, [00:49:15] can I do it again as soon as possible? And I’ll never [00:49:20] forget, this is the trajectory that tied the whole thing together, my whole [00:49:25] story. He said. It’s not what we do. It’s how we do [00:49:30] what we do. And I bowled right past it. I’m like, that’s cute.

Todd Williams: But specifically, [00:49:35] what do we do? I know it wasn’t just a bunch of nice people out there. Tell [00:49:40] me the timing. What do we do with room service? How fast does the food get to them? And he kept saying, [00:49:45] you’re focusing on the things that don’t matter. I’m like, oh, timing matters, But I [00:49:50] understand, of course, what he was saying. That’s expected. Yeah, of course. My room service [00:49:55] comes to me fast. That’s why I pay so much. Of course, my wake up call is on [00:50:00] time to the second. That’s what I’m paying for. Of course, the service. Of course. [00:50:05] Your wine list is world class. That’s what I’m paying for. In other [00:50:10] words, when that person signs the bill, at the end of the day, they’re not because [00:50:15] you met expectations. That’s the that’s the entry fee. You [00:50:20] have to meet expectations. Sometimes I tell people that excellent service [00:50:25] is baseline. Like that’s that’s just the entry fee. If [00:50:30] you’re not excellent at what you do, you’re not even in the game. But that’s not what when someone [00:50:35] over, that’s what allows them to relax and realise they’re in the right place. [00:50:40] Now what they need on top of that is a connection. And that’s what he kept trying to tell me [00:50:45] in the beginning. So I listened to him. I’d follow him around. I became friends with him, [00:50:50] he moved on and I took his job one year, became two, became three. I didn’t want to leave Hawaii. [00:50:55] I was loving hotels. I thought I was done with healthcare. I didn’t [00:51:00] forget healthcare. I had a heart for it.

Todd Williams: But I was in this new world [00:51:05] that I didn’t expect to fall in love with, and I became a [00:51:10] trainer for that hotel then for the region. And then it just kept growing until I was reporting to the corporate [00:51:15] office. And through it all, I kept seeing time and time and time [00:51:20] again. The most effective training was teaching people how to connect, [00:51:25] teaching people how to read the person in front of them. And suddenly [00:51:30] everything I’d grown up learning was suddenly the information we needed. [00:51:35] As a matter of fact, in the beginning of my career, I would start out on the knowledge side of things. [00:51:40] Okay, we will script employees to say these three things to every guest, [00:51:45] and we will do these three things along with saying these three things [00:51:50] and three plus three equals success. And that’ll give us an award. And [00:51:55] it rarely played out. So we would you know, I [00:52:00] was thinking the way I was raised, you just listen to the person and be nice and love them. [00:52:05] But thanks dad. That’s useless. So I would come back over here and I would script out the three things to say [00:52:10] and the three things to do, and it didn’t work. So I would make an adjustment and then I would make another adjustment, [00:52:15] and then I would make another adjustment. And after two weeks of adjustments, [00:52:20] I realised I actually had something very similar to what I already threw away. Listen [00:52:25] to that guest in front of you. Get to know them. Connect with [00:52:30] them and that will tell you your next step.

Prav Solanki: Todd but [00:52:35] like listening to this now, right? Yeah, I hear you say. Right. Okay. So the secret [00:52:40] to success in this game is teaching your team [00:52:45] how to connect with people, right? Just that statement in itself, [00:52:50] I can say, well, that’s a little bit woo woo. And it sounds a bit like bullshit to me. Sure. [00:52:55]

Todd Williams: 100%.

Prav Solanki: Do you get where I’m coming from? Like, what do you mean, Todd? What [00:53:00] do you mean, connect? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I’d like [00:53:05] you to answer that question, but at the same time, I’d like you to tell me the story about the gardener. Okay. [00:53:10] And the guest that you told us about with the the [00:53:15] partially sighted or blind wife. Because I think that that [00:53:20] is a true story about connection. That really hit home to me when [00:53:25] you when you shared that with us on the day. But actually I, I want you to just [00:53:30] qualify what you mean by we teach our people how [00:53:35] to rather than saying, okay, this is the script when they arrive, when they check in, when you see [00:53:40] someone tip your hat, smile to the person, make sure you acknowledge you know, look them [00:53:45] in the eye, whatever, whatever the you know, the rule book says, right? Um, but what [00:53:50] do you mean by the other thing? The connect thing? Because because that does sound a little bit like, well, how do you teach? [00:53:55] How do you teach that?

Todd Williams: Well, that’s such a good thing to hone in on as well, because I think [00:54:00] that’s where I began to realise I had seen the end of [00:54:05] the book so many times that these people, guessing at the end of the book, had not seen [00:54:10] and, you know, take that on a superficial level. [00:54:15] You’ve seen a movie, but now you go with your friends who haven’t seen it and [00:54:20] you hear them guessing halfway through, oh, I know who did it. And inside you’re like, hmm, it’s not what you [00:54:25] think. Yeah, well, I had that in life. It was sort of like, I get what you think [00:54:30] matters. That’s not what matters. And the reason I knew that is because [00:54:35] in all these conversations, there was there was an interesting parallel I skipped over earlier. But even though my mom [00:54:40] was 30 years younger, her job was she was the activities director [00:54:45] at three convalescent homes. So homes that took care of elderly people. [00:54:50] So even when I went with my mom to help out with work, it was around elderly [00:54:55] people and you would hear them talk about life in [00:55:00] you never, ever heard them say, you know, I’ll [00:55:05] never forget the protocol we put together to put someone at ease. And I [00:55:10] have it printed up in my. I’ve knitted it and it’s on my wall. Never. [00:55:15] It was always about, in the end, these soft things [00:55:20] connection mattered so.

Todd Williams: And remember I came in a little bit thinking [00:55:25] it was bullshit to. I was the one saying, that’s cute when the guy told me it’s how we do what we do, [00:55:30] but what do we do? But time and time again, I would try to teach something. [00:55:35] It wouldn’t work. I would watch him teach connection. It would work. So, you know, you [00:55:40] surrender after a while and I’m like, okay, show me this soft stuff. But here’s here’s [00:55:45] the thing that I think got me past past that seen [00:55:50] it as woo woo. I tell people this a lot of times it’s not what we teach, it’s what we [00:55:55] unleash in someone. And I say that to you as a leader, to you [00:56:00] already. We walk into work, and I feel like sometimes [00:56:05] we put on a brain eraser and we forget this. We relearn [00:56:10] what we already know outside of work. You [00:56:15] know as well as I do with your kids. It’s connection, [00:56:20] you know that. Yeah. It’s not the things you. How how do your kids know [00:56:25] you love them? Well, I buy them nice things. Mhm. They appreciate that I’m sure. [00:56:30] But that’s not the love. How do they know you love them. How [00:56:35] do your friends and family know you love them. Because you connect with them. Then we walk [00:56:40] into work and we’re like, that’ll never work. It does work because it turns [00:56:45] out.

Todd Williams: I remember we used to say this in hospitals all the time. We would say it’s [00:56:50] the weirdest disconnect. We would sit in large leadership meetings and we would say, well, what does the [00:56:55] community want from a hospital? What does the community want? We need to study [00:57:00] the community. And I remember thinking to myself, where do you all live? Like you’re you’re [00:57:05] acting like this community is this other planet. [00:57:10] But when we leave work, we go get in the car and drive into said community, [00:57:15] of which we are a member. Yeah. Why do we come into work and [00:57:20] now look back at literally our neighbours like it’s a species from another planet? [00:57:25] Bring the best version of you into work and watch how many things you suddenly understand. [00:57:30] And so that that connection. I could roll my eyes at it [00:57:35] too, until I realised I do it every day. I never [00:57:40] come home and think, oh, these are the two questions. I remember one of my hospitals that I was working [00:57:45] with had these connection questions for senior leaders when they were [00:57:50] rounding visiting the floors to ask nurses and [00:57:55] to ask team members. And so the list of questions was, you know, literally [00:58:00] written out, how is your day? And you half the time they’re looking at a piece of [00:58:05] paper. The next question was, do you have all the tools you need to be successful at your job? [00:58:10] That was natural.

Todd Williams: And the third one was very similar to that. Now imagine [00:58:15] if I went home to my kids with a sheet like that. Hey [00:58:20] kids, how was your how was your day? Do you have all the tools you need to be a successful [00:58:25] son? Are you pleased with your dad? I wouldn’t [00:58:30] do that at home for $1 million. Why do I think it’s going to happen at work? Sure. We already know [00:58:35] it’s about connection. So to your point, about the story, the [00:58:40] reason I tell, I’ve told this story a million times, and I don’t think I’ll ever not tell it because [00:58:45] it just brings it all together. But we had a couple [00:58:50] that was staying at our hotel where the gentleman was. [00:58:55] It was a husband and wife. They were an older couple. They were very distinguished. [00:59:00] They didn’t dress in touristy garb. He always had on [00:59:05] a sport coat and a cap and very nice outfit. She always had on a dress and they would [00:59:10] walk through our lobby arm in arm, and they just there was something about the two of them. They looked [00:59:15] like they had this connection we all dream of. And the husband [00:59:20] would greet people, and every time he greeted someone, his wife would feel [00:59:25] that and she would turn and just beam the most beautiful smile towards [00:59:30] the the same folks that the husband was addressing.

Todd Williams: And the reason I say every time she felt [00:59:35] him do that is because she was blind. We knew that she had her glasses and her [00:59:40] cane, but when she was with her husband arm in arm, she didn’t need that and he would [00:59:45] take her out in front of the hotel every day. And instead of having her wait where everybody else was waiting for their car, [00:59:50] he would take her over to this garden that was off to the side and a little more private. [00:59:55] I think he was just being protective of her so nobody would turn and not see her. [01:00:00] And she, of course, wouldn’t see the person coming at her. And the front drive is always so crowded, especially [01:00:05] on an island, because everybody has a car, either a car coming to get them or a rent a car. [01:00:10] That’s how they get around. He parked his car. We used to have a self parking lot [01:00:15] and so he would take her over and he would walk up to get his car and [01:00:20] at his pace. And in his age, he took a while and she’d be in the garden for a [01:00:25] bit. He would come down in the car, get out like a gentleman, open the door for her, get her [01:00:30] in the car, and off they’d go. And our valet guys would try [01:00:35] every day to see if they could get the car for him.

Todd Williams: Let us be the one to get your car today. Stay with your wife. But he’s, [01:00:40] you know, insistent. This is my exercise. And so same scenario plays out. [01:00:45] He walks his wife over to the garden, takes her face in his hands, gives her a kiss, and says, [01:00:50] I love you. I’ll be back. And then off he went to get his car. The valet would sometimes walk up [01:00:55] the hill with him. They’d run back down when he drove down. Rents repeat. [01:01:00] But on one particular day we had a gardener who was in that area [01:01:05] trimming those hedges, and he was using hand tools, still a very pleasant environment. [01:01:10] It wasn’t a bunch of machinery. So the husband still took his wife over there, [01:01:15] and he drops off his wife and off he goes to get the car. And this gardener [01:01:20] noticed this scene unfolding. [01:01:25] And a gardener is kind of an interesting position because other roles in a hotel, you [01:01:30] tend to be at a space, you’re at a desk, so you see the same people day after day. You’re at the concierge [01:01:35] desk, you see people day after day. Host in a restaurant. Same thing. Gardeners somewhere [01:01:40] different all over, wherever they’re needed. So to him, he doesn’t know [01:01:45] this couple. He’s sort of figuring things out. He’s realising that, you [01:01:50] know, she’s blind. He sees the cane, sees the glasses.

Todd Williams: Um, [01:01:55] kind of puts it all together. And then he sees the husband walking up the drive and realises, okay, [01:02:00] he chose my garden to have his wife wait. There’s a little bit of pride in that, [01:02:05] right? She could have waited over there, but he knew this garden area was a better waiting place. [01:02:10] And so his name was John. John, the gardener was very proud of the garden, [01:02:15] looked over at her to make sure she was okay and not going to trip over anything. Kept trimming the hedges [01:02:20] and doing his work. And John the gardener looked back several times [01:02:25] and I think felt the same thing each time. That pride of chose my [01:02:30] garden. But on one particular time John the human looked back and [01:02:35] John the human saw something John the gardener didn’t see. Wasn’t that he saw better. [01:02:40] He just saw something else. And John the human saw a lady waiting who might actually [01:02:45] enjoy a tour of that garden. He didn’t know how to give a tour to someone [01:02:50] who couldn’t see, but he felt it in his heart. So he walked over and he said, [01:02:55] ma’am, my name is John. I’m one of the gardeners here. Would [01:03:00] you like to see the garden? And she could tell by the way [01:03:05] he hesitated, that he knew she was blind. And she said, John, I would love to. So [01:03:10] he put out his arm so she could feel that, just like he’d seen the husband do.

Todd Williams: She [01:03:15] took him by the arm or took his arm. He walked her over and he began to show her the garden. [01:03:20] He had her smell plumeria. And he said, this right here is some people say this is the [01:03:25] scent of the islands. He had her feel this ginger plant. He said, this is torch ginger. And the blossom [01:03:30] feels like the Statue of Liberty’s torch. This is tea leaf tea, not [01:03:35] tea. And this is how we plant it and where we plant it and what it means. And bit [01:03:40] by bit by bit, he gave her a tour in the The Last Plant. He said, this is white ginger. [01:03:45] He plucked a blossom. He said, smell this. And because you’re married, this goes behind your left [01:03:50] ear. A little bit later, the husband came down, picked up his wife, [01:03:55] and off they went. And we would have never known that had happened if we [01:04:00] didn’t get a letter later from the husband. And he said, you know, all these years people have asked [01:04:05] me why I choose four seasons. A lot of family, a lot of friends say there’s [01:04:10] hotels that are cheaper. There’s hotels that are literally on the same beach that don’t cost as [01:04:15] much. What makes you choose four seasons? And he said, if I if I [01:04:20] list out the things, the things wonderful beds to [01:04:25] the person who’s never stayed there, they say, well, this hospital has wonderful beds to our hospital, this hotel.

Todd Williams: And [01:04:30] that’s a big, big issue in my role, by the way. But [01:04:35] if you know, if I said it was the restaurants, they’d say their [01:04:40] hotel has an amazing restaurant as well. Yeah, he says, I knew there was something different, but I just [01:04:45] didn’t know how to articulate it. And he said, my wife and I have, since the years [01:04:50] of dating, have been able to travel and see amazing things. And we come home and we talk about what [01:04:55] we saw in our married years, in our parenting [01:05:00] years, with young kids, with teenagers, with adult children. We’ve been able to go and see [01:05:05] amazing things and come home and talk about what we saw as grandparents and even as [01:05:10] great grandparents. This is what we’ve done. But two years ago, my wife lost her eyesight, and [01:05:15] from that day on, it’s hard to know what to do. Do I still travel? My wife [01:05:20] insists that we do. But I feel terrible because now it’s me seeing things [01:05:25] that she can’t see. So for the last two years, my job has been [01:05:30] consistently to see wonderful things and try to explain it in such [01:05:35] a way she can feel like she saw it too, and to really feel as though she saw it. [01:05:40] He said the other day, driving away from your hotel for the very first time since my wife [01:05:45] lost her eyesight, the reverse happened and as we were driving away, she [01:05:50] was trying to help me feel.

Todd Williams: What she had so clearly seen. [01:05:55] Thanks to the heart of your gardener. And I think that story [01:06:00] and that letter just crystallised everything for me. [01:06:05] It’s it’s what I knew and what I’d been fighting. I [01:06:10] grew up observing people. I grew up, you know, like I said, when I was in college, I’m like, [01:06:15] there’s a student connecting with the teacher. There’s a student not connecting with the teacher. I was listening to people [01:06:20] talk about connection. I was listening to what mattered most. In the end, what do we find [01:06:25] most valuable even if we were at the top of our company? How come when we retire, [01:06:30] it turns out connection mattered most. And I think [01:06:35] I got to a point where I was like, I can’t do just [01:06:40] like the movie. If you’ve already seen it, you can’t be, no [01:06:45] matter how much your friends are like, I think this person did it. If you know the movie in’s different, you [01:06:50] can’t. It’s harder to fake it with your friends than [01:06:55] it is to just accept that you know the end and let them do that while [01:07:00] you stay over here with your knowledge in the trainer [01:07:05] role, though, it’s a little bit different.

Todd Williams: Now, I had to convince this group to see things [01:07:10] differently. So that became the second part of my work is how do I teach this? [01:07:15] How do I get this across to my team? But I think before I jump to that, [01:07:20] that aspect, the biggest lesson that today has me in [01:07:25] front of groups like where you met me, talking about really what matters most. [01:07:30] Yeah, it’s been a long road of trial and error. It’s been a long road of [01:07:35] fighting what I knew early and pushing [01:07:40] the woo woo away, as you would call it, because I didn’t trust it. [01:07:45] Um, you know, there’s an author out there, Dan Heath has a book called upstream, [01:07:50] but one of his points in the book, he says we find great comfort in complexity. [01:07:55] We love to make things complicated. If we have [01:08:00] projects going and detailed sheets and scripting for our nurses [01:08:05] and and sheets that require them to round on an hourly basis. [01:08:10] These are the. This is the structure that leads to a great experience, but [01:08:15] a great experience is rarely the result of structure. It’s the [01:08:20] result of a connection. It’s the result of somebody understanding you. So I [01:08:25] finally surrendered to what I already knew and began to put that up front. And all [01:08:30] the metrics started to move. And I think in the beginning, I was a little bit frustrated because [01:08:35] I had been handed this trainer role from a trainer who had this great reputation [01:08:40] for moving metrics.

Todd Williams: His hotels had low turnover. [01:08:45] They had great engagement scores, phenomenal guests. There you go again. Guest experience [01:08:50] ratings. And then I got in the seat of training and [01:08:55] I really began to hone in on, okay, what do I script? What do I do? This is a huge [01:09:00] responsibility that I’ve had handed to me. I’m [01:09:05] not going to drop it. So I am going to learn the step by step by step process, [01:09:10] even though I knew that’s what he said didn’t lead to it. I couldn’t shake [01:09:15] it and my metrics started to slide, and I remember I [01:09:20] could feel that people would say, gosh, you know, it’s not the same. It’s not the same. And [01:09:25] I think I got to that point where I’m like, it’s not. And I don’t even like the work I’m doing because I know it [01:09:30] doesn’t matter. And I begin to put some of the soft stuff back up front, valuing [01:09:35] the human that I was training, valuing the human call to guest, valuing the blind [01:09:40] lady, valuing the gardener. And when I begin to put them back up front, all [01:09:45] those metrics started to go up and up and up to levels that I’d [01:09:50] never seen. And I guess my takeaway was what we learn matters [01:09:55] most at the end of the book. People really appreciate right now.

Prav Solanki: So [01:10:00] in your training, you’ve got to [01:10:05] get people to buy into the woo woo stuff, right? The [01:10:10] the stuff that you can’t measure, feel, touch whatever. Right. You’ve got to get them to [01:10:15] buy into that. Mhm. Is there a recruitment process for that. Is [01:10:20] there a is is there a way that you identify and that you hire [01:10:25] these people who I think the easiest way to describe it. I’m not going to sugarcoat [01:10:30] this. The give a shit. Yeah. The care right. Is there a way in which [01:10:35] do you get involved in the hiring process?

Todd Williams: I do, and I think that’s one of the absolute [01:10:40] foundational key steps. You know, if you don’t hire the right person, you’re on a, you [01:10:45] know, treadmill of trying to fix the unfixable. You cannot teach someone [01:10:50] to care. We’ve heard that there’s arguments. Can you you can, you can’t. You can teach [01:10:55] someone the steps that appear caring. But if there’s no real deep [01:11:00] passion behind it, it’s flat. We’ve [01:11:05] all been to places where people say the right things. But we know we’ll never go back. There’s no [01:11:10] passion behind it. So you definitely learn to look for that passion. You know, a lot of companies [01:11:15] out there subscribe to the technique of behavioural based interviewing, but it’s just basically [01:11:20] not. It’s less about what you know and how you behave. So that’s [01:11:25] that’s tremendous. So yes, huge. Step [01:11:30] in the whole process is looking for people where you can feel the passion. [01:11:35] But how do you get past that? Woo woo might be a better [01:11:40] thing to tackle first, because even the people that do the interviewing have to first [01:11:45] get past that as well. Right? So before you, before I can find the right person, I have to have [01:11:50] the right interviewer. And I think the thing that [01:11:55] I have found over the years that works better than anything else is connecting [01:12:00] you to something you already understand. I don’t want to argue with you. I’m not going to try [01:12:05] to win you over. I don’t want to convince you that this soft stuff matters [01:12:10] because I don’t need to. I can show you ten parts of your life [01:12:15] where you already know it. You already know it. And [01:12:20] that, to me, becomes the whole goal [01:12:25] is to connect you to something you already know and understand in your life. [01:12:30]

Todd Williams: Get you to identify what you get out of that moment. So I’m not passing [01:12:35] on. The last thing I want is a bunch of people walking around a building saying, we do this [01:12:40] because Todd said, it matters. We do this because that guy says, we have to do this. I [01:12:45] want you to do what you do because you know it matters. And so I think my training is [01:12:50] a little bit of breaking down some of the barriers you might have by showing you, hey, [01:12:55] the thing you’re rolling your eyes at and calling woo woo, you do every single day [01:13:00] in these five scenarios, you know, I’ll give you an example. You can walk [01:13:05] out of your house in the morning, see a neighbour that you see every day, greet him, [01:13:10] but immediately realise they’re greeting back to you was a little off and [01:13:15] you might walk over and ask him. Everything all right? It’s all right. I had a call with my daughter [01:13:20] last night. She’s at college. Tried to give her good advice. Kind of [01:13:25] think I made it worse. You want to talk about it? You might go inside, make [01:13:30] a pot of coffee, chat at the end. The neighbour leaves and says, you know, [01:13:35] thanks for. Thanks for seeing something. Yeah, I know you. I could tell something was off. I appreciate [01:13:40] you. There’s the the bro hug and then the two guys go [01:13:45] their separate way. And then one of them walks into work and sits through a two hour class on empathy, because [01:13:50] the company has decided that it’s time to teach, right? [01:13:55] And I see this all the time.

Todd Williams: I don’t need you to sit through [01:14:00] a two hour class on empathy. I need you to realise the empathetic moments in your [01:14:05] life. Realise what you did in those moments, identify [01:14:10] what you did in those moments, because that’s going to be different than what this person did. And that person did [01:14:15] help you understand how much it mattered when it came out your way, and then let that loose [01:14:20] in the building. When you do that, you [01:14:25] get around that woo woo because it’s pretty hard to argue with you if I know that you if you’ve called [01:14:30] me out, if I realise I already do this in my own life. I can’t really roll [01:14:35] my eyes at you for asking me to do it. And I think it’s a little bit of that battle [01:14:40] of getting people to just take a fresh look [01:14:45] at humanity again. Step away from all the crap I [01:14:50] sometimes I have a hard time with business books because you just I used to have in [01:14:55] the hotels I’d work at, I’d always have what I call a learning library where employees could come. And, [01:15:00] you know, Todd, you have a book that might help us be better at this. I’m like, I do, and here you go. And they’d sign [01:15:05] out. Yeah, but sometimes I’d walk into my office and I’d stare at that just shelf [01:15:10] after shelf after shelf after shelf. And I’m like, and they all say the same [01:15:15] thing. Somewhere in the midst of that book is the message that [01:15:20] you need to connect with people. You need to connect with purpose, [01:15:25] passion.

Prav Solanki: So I’m just going to stop right there. One second. My [01:15:30] daughter is just over there. So I’m going to pass us some keys. And then we’re going to.

Todd Williams: And then do the three steps [01:15:35] of connecting with her. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: So [01:15:50] she’s at the second day of her first job. Oh, really? As an intern? Yeah. [01:15:55] Yeah, yeah. So she’s working? Not far. So I’m driving her in and driving her home every day, [01:16:00] which is, um. Yeah. It’s nice.

Todd Williams: So. Take [01:16:05] a look at that before. Before we even start. Yeah. Look at what you just said. Yeah. [01:16:10] There’s a smile on your face right now as you talk about. That’s [01:16:15] my daughter. It’s her second day of her new job. Her first job? She’s an intern. You got a whole [01:16:20] smile on your face. You said it’s nice. You said I’m driving her in. I’m [01:16:25] bringing her home. She needed my keys. I’m doing a podcast right now, and I stopped [01:16:30] it because my daughter needs me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that is [01:16:35] everything that we’ve been talking about. Yeah, yeah, you don’t turn that off. [01:16:40]

Prav Solanki: And so when you’re training the team. [01:16:45] Mhm. Do you get them to share those [01:16:50] moments of connection and say you’ve got that. Bring [01:16:55] that to work.

Todd Williams: How is that. Is that part of your. [01:17:00] It is. So when we, when we open up a new hospital or a new hotel, [01:17:05] anytime you’re opening up. And it’s really interesting, by the way, just [01:17:10] through the way life works, the places I’ve always worked are open 24 [01:17:15] over seven, 365 days a year. Yeah. And [01:17:20] because of that, I really value the new openings, [01:17:25] because I tell people, you know, I’ll get all the employees in a ballroom and I’m like, look around, because we’re [01:17:30] never going to be able to do this again, ever. Once we open, I’ll have you know, did you go [01:17:35] to the 2:00 meeting or the 4:00 meeting, but never was everybody together. So [01:17:40] when you have that, you you capitalise on that and you ask people to [01:17:45] share and you it’s it’s the questions and one of my favourite things and it’s almost [01:17:50] what you said at the beginning of this too, is when people leave an orientation and say that is not [01:17:55] what I was expecting at all. I, I heard corporate orientation [01:18:00] and I had my mind set. I got [01:18:05] a text just the other day from an employee of Four Seasons. She [01:18:10] just passed her ten year anniversary, and she took the time to send me [01:18:15] a paragraph, a long paragraph about. She remembers [01:18:20] walking into orientation, thinking this was going to be another corporate orientation. She [01:18:25] goes, four days later. I was like, what in the world is [01:18:30] this company? It’s nothing that I’ve expected. And she says, I went through orientation and [01:18:35] I came out and I thought, well, let’s see if this company’s as good as they just said.

Todd Williams: Yeah. And she said, [01:18:40] this is the part that really got me because you got to think back. This is ten years [01:18:45] later. She says, obviously in a hotel, we’re open on holidays. [01:18:50] This was going to be my first Thanksgiving away from my family. [01:18:55] And she goes, I remember on Thanksgiving Day you were walking around the hotel [01:19:00] smiling, chatting with people and thanking them for working that day. And [01:19:05] she goes, ten years later, she’s moved on to two different hotels, and now she has a corporate role. And [01:19:10] she says, the thing I remember that made the biggest difference was that Thanksgiving [01:19:15] Day. I have so many stories of that. I can’t turn [01:19:20] away from that. So when people ask me, how do you get past the soft, the [01:19:25] people who roll their eyes? I have a million examples, but most of the time they have it in [01:19:30] their own life. Yeah, and all you have to do is get them to see it and go, oh, [01:19:35] you know, I see sometimes in a hospital I will ask people, [01:19:40] go, you go over to the emergency room and just peek at the lobby. [01:19:45] You tell me what’s on the mind of some of the people sitting there. [01:19:50] There are people with their head bowed that are doing anything they [01:19:55] can in their will to make good things happen behind those doors. [01:20:00] What is not on their mind in that moment is the latest [01:20:05] strategy that their company’s unveiling tomorrow to improve market [01:20:10] share.

Todd Williams: There’s always a perspective shift, and [01:20:15] the higher you go, the more macro your view, the more it becomes clear [01:20:20] that in the end it really comes down to love. [01:20:25] It comes down to being a good person, comes down to connecting with the human in front of you. Now, when you [01:20:30] grab that macro view and you’re brave enough, and this is the key part where you win people over because [01:20:35] I don’t shy away from it. There’s that old saying from the 60s, 70s, I’m a lover, not a [01:20:40] fighter. And I always say today the saying should be if you’re a lover, you better be a fighter, [01:20:45] because there’s a lot of high rollers out there, right? But if you take that perspective [01:20:50] and you bring it back into the workplace, and you’re brave enough to say in the face [01:20:55] of all the strategies, well, what’s the kind thing to do in this moment? What is [01:21:00] the most understanding thing we could do? What does this person actually looking [01:21:05] for from us right now? Well, there wound to be. That’s. So. [01:21:10] That’s a given. What is this person looking for? Well, [01:21:15] the wound, you can’t get past it. But if you just persist and you’re willing to fight a little bit, [01:21:20] someone will finally say, well, they’re probably looking to feel safe. And they almost say it in an angry [01:21:25] way. I don’t know, they’re looking to be heard. How are you going [01:21:30] to make them feel heard? And once somebody realises it’s it’s okay to bring [01:21:35] the best of themselves into work.

Todd Williams: Changes everything because [01:21:40] you don’t need training anymore. You’ve got it. It’s already inside you. You just have [01:21:45] to understand that missing component was the best part of you that you’ve been leaving in the car [01:21:50] when you walk into the office every day, but you never leave in the car when [01:21:55] you go home. Mhm. Yeah, I hate that phrase work life balance because of [01:22:00] the semantics of the phrase. It’s literally separating work from [01:22:05] life. Stupidest phrase in the world. [01:22:10] None of us do work outside of our life. We’re [01:22:15] living what we need is life balance the best [01:22:20] of us into each situation. Some days will be at work, some days I’ll be off. Some days I’ll be in town, [01:22:25] some days on vacation. Each one of those scenarios requires the best of me. [01:22:30] If you put that on, you won’t see it as woo woo anymore, especially when you start to see [01:22:35] the metrics move. That’s my favourite. I think that’s why I enjoy it so much, because I know [01:22:40] the doubter will become the convert. Going back to Bible school, I remember hearing [01:22:45] this phrase that I think is true when you take it out of religion. Somebody said, the greater [01:22:50] the transformation, the louder the testimony. And I’ve seen [01:22:55] that. So true. So sometimes I enjoy the doubter. That’s my favourite [01:23:00] person in training because I know when the doubter becomes the believer, they don’t [01:23:05] shut up.

Prav Solanki: Here we are on a podcast. Todd.

Todd Williams: And here we are on the podcast.

Prav Solanki: Because [01:23:10] because look, as we said at the beginning, right? I turned up [01:23:15] thinking, this guy’s probably full of shit and I’m [01:23:20] not going to get these two days back. Right? But you captured me. You can’t have [01:23:25] been on stage for more than 60s. Right? And I [01:23:30] was hooked. Yeah. And then I thought, bloody hell, I’m so lucky to be [01:23:35] in this room. Yeah. And then and then and then at the same time, you know, [01:23:40] like after the event, I went and told dev the same story. I said, listen, mate, [01:23:45] I think you need to hear this, because when you invited me, as lovely as the [01:23:50] gesture was, I thought to myself, I’m a busy guy. I got shit to do, mate. Yeah. [01:23:55] And you’ve invited me here for two days. I’ve got a choice. I could I could spend that with my [01:24:00] family. Yeah, I could spend that working on my business. Yeah. Or [01:24:05] I could spend it hanging out with a bunch of people. I don’t really know [01:24:10] that. Well, right. It’s not what I would choose to do, but but but actually, you brought [01:24:15] it all together, right? So. So here we are, the convert who is, um, who’s [01:24:20] now publishing this story. Right. Because I felt feel so strongly about the time we spent together. [01:24:25] Right. Um, and interestingly, so you [01:24:30] go from hospital to [01:24:35] four Seasons or, you know, the best hotel chain in the world to [01:24:40] dentistry. How does that translate [01:24:45] to dentistry?

Todd Williams: Yeah, that’s one of my favourite stories because that’s where I just think serendipity. [01:24:50] You know, if I’ve heard several well-known speakers [01:24:55] say they hate the phrase self-made person, and I do too, because I think [01:25:00] we tend to forget all those strokes of luck that happened along the way. Those [01:25:05] moments we remember, the moments we worked really hard and put in more hours than anybody else. But we forget [01:25:10] that one connection or that. So serendipity definitely came into play [01:25:15] here. But I left four seasons to go back to healthcare, [01:25:20] and I took a corporate role with a health care system in Colorado. And [01:25:25] then that kind of grew into the parent organisation of the [01:25:30] nationwide health care organisation. So I was speaking at conferences, speaking to doctors, [01:25:35] speaking to nurses, speaking about patient experience. Really a lot of the conferences [01:25:40] just became with the physicians and like you said, teaching [01:25:45] what wasn’t taught. And I enjoyed it. So when I was with [01:25:50] the hotel, I was doing hospital work on the side. Now I was with the hospital, still doing some hotel [01:25:55] work on the side, and there was a continuing education group that was coming [01:26:00] to do a conference at one of the four seasons I’d worked at, and [01:26:05] that group was the person doing the site inspection [01:26:10] was talking with the Four Seasons employee and the Four Seasons employee.

Todd Williams: Asking questions [01:26:15] like we do was asking about, so what kind of speakers? Because I understand you’re going to have the [01:26:20] main stage, you’re going to have the sides smaller ballroom, you’re going to have all these different meeting rooms, [01:26:25] all different speakers, same speaker. What tell me what your company does. [01:26:30] And this person said, we have a range of speakers. We have everybody from clinical to practice management [01:26:35] and everybody in between. And just off the cuff, for whatever reason, that [01:26:40] person doing the side inspection said, ah, had you been here last year, [01:26:45] I bet you would have enjoyed our trainer who was based at this hotel. He [01:26:50] would have enjoyed talking to your group. Second stroke of luck is that person said, [01:26:55] can I still get his phone number? So pretty soon there’s a call that goes upstairs, [01:27:00] and then somebody calls me in Colorado and says, the scene is unfolding. And would you would [01:27:05] you want to talk to this person? So I get on the phone with this person and she [01:27:10] tells me what her organisation is doing in this upcoming conference. And she said, what do you know about dentistry? [01:27:15] And I said, I have a dentist. That’s about it. But [01:27:20] I heard what the need was for this continuing education group, and it had [01:27:25] nothing to do.

Todd Williams: This particular conference with dentistry, it was more of these individuals [01:27:30] that helped organise these events and how do they connect with people and how do they reach out to new members? [01:27:35] And that’s my world. So I said, okay, it’s it’s a different overarching environment. [01:27:40] But what you’re asking I understand. Same shit. Yeah. So I came in and I did that [01:27:45] conference and it went really, really, really well. And I was invited to do another. [01:27:50] And I become a little bit of a it’s [01:27:55] a, I think, a side thing of ADHD, but I can hyper focus on something. So if [01:28:00] I get interested in it, I now want to learn everything I can about it. So now that I’m in [01:28:05] this world and I’m now at my third or fourth conference in dentistry. All right, tell me, [01:28:10] who is this room? What are the titles? What are the different types of dentistry? What do you do? What are your challenges in your practice? [01:28:15] I would grab a doctor and, you know, here, have a drink. Let’s talk. [01:28:20] And the more I began to dive into dentistry, the more I realised [01:28:25] it was literally the perfect combination of both of my worlds. In [01:28:30] dentistry, we’re small enough that we [01:28:35] have to be excellent at both.

Todd Williams: We have to be as hospitable as the finest [01:28:40] health, um, hospitality teams. We have to be able to meet our patients [01:28:45] needs, understand our patients, understand their fears, understand the unspoken needs. [01:28:50] But we also have to be as clinically excellent as the finest, finest, finest health care institutions. [01:28:55] We don’t get a break because we’re so small. Every eye is on us. We have to be perfect [01:29:00] at both. And so here I’ve done this job and this job which seems so disconnected. [01:29:05] And suddenly I found dentistry where they came together perfectly. [01:29:10] And the more I learned, and the more I dove in, the more that became true. [01:29:15] Then it became a quarter of my work, then half my work. And I’d say today it’s probably about 75 [01:29:20] to 80% of my work. And sometimes it’s conferences with just doctors, [01:29:25] sometimes it’s the whole team, sometimes it’s, um, focusing just on [01:29:30] patient experience, sometimes it’s on team building, sometimes it’s on practice management of literally [01:29:35] working on workflow. But it never deviates from what I learned through [01:29:40] hospitality and life about connecting. [01:29:45] And my favourite thing is when you say, how do you win over the woo woo person is you [01:29:50] are the the doubter is when they finally see their metrics move. That’s the best, [01:29:55] that’s the best.

Prav Solanki: I’ve got a question that it popped into [01:30:00] my head and I said to myself, don’t forget this Prav. Okay, so it’s disconnected from [01:30:05] from what we’re talking about right now, but if I don’t mention it now, I’ll forget. Um, [01:30:10] and it’s the whole public speaking thing that I wasn’t just blown away by your [01:30:15] stories and the way you connected to me and the audience, but it’s [01:30:20] the fact that certainly I can appreciate because I’m a speaker as well. [01:30:25]

Todd Williams: Mhm.

Prav Solanki: That how great a speaker you are. Right. And [01:30:30] can you remember the first time that you had to speak in front [01:30:35] of a group. And what that felt like was it was it, was it the heart pounding. [01:30:40] Was it, was it the nerves racing or was it the actually do you know what I’ve been growing up [01:30:45] with adults all all my life. I’m used to like hanging out with loads of people [01:30:50] and I can speak confidently in front of people. What was that like and then what was your [01:30:55] journey as a speaker, a performer? [01:31:00] And then I’ll layer this question in as well. How the hell did you engage us [01:31:05] for two days without a single slide, Without a single [01:31:10] slide, no computer, no laptop. And we were given an agenda that day, and we were [01:31:15] told at 245, Todd’s going to stop [01:31:20] and we’re going to have a break. And at this time he’s going to stop. And and you ran like clockwork [01:31:25] as well, right? Yeah. How the hell did all that? Let’s go back to the first [01:31:30] question, which is the heart pounding public speaker thing, because I remember my first day and [01:31:35] first moment and it gets easier. And you go from fearing to enjoying [01:31:40] and all the rest of it, but take me through. I’d love to hear your story on that.

Todd Williams: That [01:31:45] it’s it’s funny because I teach public speaking today, I [01:31:50] hated it. I if you asked me to list my top three fears, that would have certainly [01:31:55] been on the list, if not number one. Yeah, and I remember, you [01:32:00] know, I told you those youth ministers had an impact in my life. So I began to get to know some of them. And they’re like, you know, well, [01:32:05] hey, what about if this this week at church, you know, one of the churches I went to was [01:32:10] pretty good size. They’re like, what if you, you know, at this one point, read a Bible verse to the [01:32:15] congregation and then lead them in a prayer, oh my word. I knew that was going [01:32:20] to be good for me. And I said yes, but I can remember sitting in the pew, [01:32:25] just heart pounding sweat. Now it was time I [01:32:30] walked down. I get up in front of everybody. I look up most terrifying thing ever. [01:32:35] I would tell people, you know, I would always get the feedback. Later. I would say, okay, open your Bibles to [01:32:40] page 476. And then I would start reading. So nobody even had their Bible out of the pew yet. [01:32:45] And I would read it and I would pray and I would bolt. And [01:32:50] I was just glad it was over. Like that was the worst. So [01:32:55] hated it then. Then I got into when I was [01:33:00] in one of my first leadership roles at four seasons, I was asked to do, we have this leadership program [01:33:05] where we’re paired up with other leaders from different areas of [01:33:10] the hotel, and you do a five person presentation.

Todd Williams: And I remember one [01:33:15] of the gentlemen on my team. It’s funny how gardeners come into my life a couple of times, but he was [01:33:20] head of the landscaping department. English was the second language. This guy likes plants. [01:33:25] He likes trees. He’s not a people guy. He’s a people guy as far as being friendly. [01:33:30] But you want him to be comfortable. Go put him in a bunch of plants. You want him to be uncomfortable, go put him in [01:33:35] front of people. So he has to present and each of us have to do about two [01:33:40] minutes. Okay, I’m. I don’t want to do my two minutes. I don’t like [01:33:45] this, but I’m going to get through it because I know it’s part of my leadership path. [01:33:50] Sure. So I get up there and I do my two minutes. It’s over. Thank goodness. Next person goes up and now [01:33:55] it’s his turn and he walks up and I can just see, uh oh, [01:34:00] he’s he’s going to tank. He’s he’s the colour is gone. [01:34:05] He’s losing his confidence. And he got up there and he said about two words [01:34:10] and he just froze and I couldn’t watch. [01:34:15] I forgot about the room because I’d been working with this team of five for weeks now, [01:34:20] and my heart was going out to him because I knew how much he hated this moment. So I kind of jumped out [01:34:25] of my chair off the side, and I came back up, and I can’t even remember his name now.

Todd Williams: But I [01:34:30] basically said, so, like you and I were talking about, what is it you love about your team? [01:34:35] And he kind of looked at me and he answered robotically to me because he wasn’t looking at the room. And I [01:34:40] said, and that’s a point you wanted to make sure you made today. And I basically kind [01:34:45] of turned it into an interview so he could get through this part. And I made it look to [01:34:50] my best of my ability, like, we’d planned to do this together. And I’m [01:34:55] sure he went off wondering if he was going to quit forever. I sat down and thought, [01:35:00] man, twice of what I hate today and I’ll never forget this. [01:35:05] This person came up to me afterwards and says, wow, I can tell you love [01:35:10] speaking. And I remember you talk about a fake it till you make it moment. I said, [01:35:15] oh yeah, sure do. And inside I’m like, I [01:35:20] there’s nothing I hate more. But as I reflected over a couple of days, I’m like, [01:35:25] isn’t that interesting? That’s something we can think we’re terrible at. Yeah. [01:35:30] And assume we’re terrible at the audience is like, boy, you really enjoy this. [01:35:35] So I thought, what did they pick up on? And I started thinking about it, and I think it was [01:35:40] as soon as I realised he was in trouble, I wasn’t playing to the audience anymore. I didn’t care [01:35:45] about the audience. I was worried about him. Not literally, you [01:35:50] know, laying down on the floor. I try to keep that [01:35:55] in my mind when I got into speaking.

Todd Williams: It’s not about this audience. I [01:36:00] want these people to see a better version of their life. So [01:36:05] I’m not talking to you. I’m with you. And I think [01:36:10] seeing myself as a speaker, I tell people it’s really just a conversation from the stage. [01:36:15] It’s not a presentation. The word is terrible. We’re [01:36:20] presenting for sure, but it’s really you’re paying attention to the facial expressions. [01:36:25] You’re paying attention to the body language. You’re paying attention to whether or not phones have come out [01:36:30] and you’re paying attention to this table really resonated with [01:36:35] the humour. But this table really resonated with the statistics. So [01:36:40] I’m going to have to have a mix of both. This table likes it when I talk about team. This [01:36:45] team tunes out when I talk about team. And you spend your [01:36:50] first hour sort of figuring out who’s in front of you, which is what we do in life. [01:36:55] And if you really think about it, this is why I love the question. And I got excited when you ask it, what [01:37:00] you see me teach you to do is literally what you [01:37:05] see me doing from stage. You’re my guests in that moment, [01:37:10] or you’re my patients in that moment. I’m trying to learn. What do you need? [01:37:15] Just like a patient comes in and really wants to get out of that chair as soon as possible, [01:37:20] and hopefully without spending too much money, your hope is to get out of that [01:37:25] chair as soon as possible, because you don’t really want to spend two days, but you [01:37:30] have to.

Todd Williams: Mhm. I pick up on that in different ways. [01:37:35] And so I’ve learned what kind of opening puts you at ease. What kind of things do you expect [01:37:40] to hear versus what you actually heard. Mhm. What hook would [01:37:45] you think of it this way. I used to say from a church perspective, if you [01:37:50] think of church there’s sort of three sections to the congregation. The first section [01:37:55] comes every week. They’re bought in. You could sneeze and they say Amen. [01:38:00] The middle section is where most of life is. Those are the people that [01:38:05] some are listening, some aren’t. Some are engaged, some aren’t. That’s the world. [01:38:10] The back section are usually the people who came in late, [01:38:15] sat down, have their arms crossed. They’re sceptical. [01:38:20] They’ve been to church before and they’ve been made to feel wrong. [01:38:25] They’ve been to church before and they’ve been told that they’re what’s wrong with society. They’ve been [01:38:30] accused. They haven’t been accepted to them. Church says it’s about love and seems to be [01:38:35] about hatred. If I write my message for the front row, I win them [01:38:40] over. But I already had them. If I write my message for the middle, I get some, [01:38:45] I lose some. But if I write my message for the sceptic, I [01:38:50] get all three rows. Yeah. And I think that to me is [01:38:55] why I don’t have slides. Because slides can actually counter that. If I come [01:39:00] in and I realise a room is very, very sceptical and my first slide says, look [01:39:05] at how happy you all are, I’m screwed by my own presentation.

Prav Solanki: Did [01:39:10] you ever have slides, Todd?

Todd Williams: In the beginning, yeah. With. Because much [01:39:15] like a lot of the presentations, I’m sure you do. You’re presenting information. Yeah, [01:39:20] that is very clinical in nature. So if I’m with four seasons, I started [01:39:25] off with, you know, here’s our 17 new hotels that are on the way. Here’s the [01:39:30] leadership team. And then I would because I’m already using slides, I [01:39:35] would have 12 more slides about these behaviours. And [01:39:40] I realised that’s when I lost the audience. You know, we I remember we had a slide that says we [01:39:45] are kind of like out of the room. Or my [01:39:50] friend told me this one time, he said later there was a he [01:39:55] goes, we had a theme called boo And he goes, it had 52 [01:40:00] slides. And he goes, that’s just the comedy of how can I say boo? [01:40:05] And then have 52 slides of instructions on how to be you. [01:40:10]

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Nice. Yeah.

Todd Williams: Be be be. You should have no slides whatsoever. Yeah, [01:40:15] yeah. But but what I realised is the information that you need to present is in the room. [01:40:20] So the more engaging and so what I’m watching for are those little [01:40:25] nods. What I’m watching for is, you know, [01:40:30] like I can say at the beginning of a session, and it’s interesting when dev and I had the [01:40:35] first talks about this, by the way, he would say sort of the same thing, but how are you going to keep them engaged [01:40:40] for this long? And, you know, I had to sort of say the same thing to him, where it’s even harder because [01:40:45] he’s the one, you know, deciding yes or no in this conference.

Prav Solanki: And he’s coughing [01:40:50] up. Right. He’s. Yeah. Making the investment. And I’m basically.

Todd Williams: Saying trust me.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, [01:40:55] yeah.

Todd Williams: And so, you [01:41:00] know, there’s just a certain point where I’m like, you just at this point I can connect you with proof. I [01:41:05] can give you testimonies. But what would it serve me? Yeah. [01:41:10] To to come over and do a terrible thing. Obviously. But [01:41:15] what I’ll listen for so I can come into a room. And if I see that look, I’m like, [01:41:20] none of these people think this is going to be worth their time, and my eyes are going everywhere. So I might [01:41:25] say right off the beginning, how many of you have been to a really, really shitty orientation? Some [01:41:30] look around, some are just like, this is my moment and their hand goes higher than ever. Yeah. And [01:41:35] I say, me too. How many of you’ve been to orientations that are literally a waste of your [01:41:40] day? More hands go up. I’m like, me too. And then I’ll ask, what do you hate about those things? Me [01:41:45] too. So knowing that I hate that there’s no way I can present [01:41:50] that. So now they’re already like, well, all right, I didn’t see that opening coming. Yeah. [01:41:55] And again, that’s what I’m telling from the beginning. It’s connecting. Yeah, [01:42:00] but if I just get up there and say, you know. Hi. I’ve been brought in to give you two [01:42:05] days of information. You’re done. You’re you’re phone’s out and you’re out 15 [01:42:10] minutes later.

Prav Solanki: For sure. For sure.

Todd Williams: And the reason I don’t use slides, by the way, [01:42:15] is because we can get into the technical side of teaching. But if there’s something that’ll [01:42:20] set off an inner beacon of of irritation, it’s to read [01:42:25] to somebody.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Todd Williams: It freaking send me home with that. But don’t make [01:42:30] me sit in a room and look at a slide while you stand there and read what I can read. That feels like I’m [01:42:35] five. Yeah, yeah.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. I mean, the [01:42:40] one thing I’ll do is, um, I’ll have one word on the slide and a picture [01:42:45] and, um, if that. Perfect and it’s there as a it’s [01:42:50] there as an aide memoire. Oh, shit. I need to speak about this now. Let me tell you. Do you know what I mean? [01:42:55] Yeah. Death by PowerPoint or reading from the slide. It’s, um. Yeah, I started off [01:43:00] like that. Right. And, um, it gives you that sense of comfort. Yeah. You’ve got [01:43:05] structure. You’ve got these people watching you all eyes on you when you’re presenting for the first [01:43:10] time. You need something to as a crutch, right? Right, right. And and those [01:43:15] words really helped. And then you realise you can just let go of those right and be you, right [01:43:20] you.

Todd Williams: But here’s the good news too, that I think is in between the two things you [01:43:25] just said. You start out needing a crutch, then you say boo! But the good news is the audience [01:43:30] is your crutch. They’re your notes. So let’s say [01:43:35] in my mind, I know I need [01:43:40] to open and tell them that we’ve all been to bad orientations, but I forget to write [01:43:45] that down. Yeah, I’m off to the side. I’m thinking to myself, I’m so excited to speak [01:43:50] to this group. This is great, I can’t wait. Look at this. The Fairmont is beautiful. This is going to be fun. I get up [01:43:55] on stage and I look out at a bunch of people like this and I’m like, oh, that’s right, I need to talk [01:44:00] about bad orientations. Yeah. So you’re not actually letting go of your notes. [01:44:05] You’re just replacing paper with humans.

Prav Solanki: With people. Yeah, yeah.

Todd Williams: And they will tell [01:44:10] you what to say next. Yeah. And you can see it. And [01:44:15] then the minute someone you know, and I could say, how many of you have been to an orientation that surprised [01:44:20] you? And I see one person. I saw your face go. What surprised you at that orientation? Now, that [01:44:25] person says the message was different than I expected. It’s exactly. [01:44:30] You have a preconceived notion. But it was something different. I’m glad you said that, because today, I promise you, [01:44:35] it’s going to be different than you expected. Now, the room’s kind of on board. It’s starting to feel like a community. [01:44:40] Those are just things I learned along the way. The hard way. The hard way?

Prav Solanki: Yeah. [01:44:45] That’s amazing.

Todd Williams: Yeah, as a matter of fact, I went to I joke sometimes, I went to a conference one time [01:44:50] and I was on stage just doing the mic check, and I looked down and I, I [01:44:55] saw a slide that was completely different for this other speaker. Here’s [01:45:00] the slide that they were presenting from mirrored behind them. But this slide was like notes and [01:45:05] even had drawings on it. And so I got off the stage and I said, what was that slide off to the [01:45:10] side? And they said, oh, that’s a confidence slide. I said, what is a confidence slide? They said some [01:45:15] when when the AV set up is right, we can have two things. One, you [01:45:20] can see what the audience is seeing, but one, you can see what you need to see to stay on track. And I’m like, oh [01:45:25] my gosh. They said, you don’t know what a confidence light is. I said, no, can I have one? So I went and made one really [01:45:30] quick and they gave it to me. Oh, worst thing I’ve ever done in my life because [01:45:35] I it it threw me off. Because now I felt like it given myself a script. [01:45:40] And so I looked at the room and I said hello. And then I looked down and oh, shit, that wasn’t what I was supposed [01:45:45] to say. Yeah. And so my own notes threw me [01:45:50] off.

Prav Solanki: So yeah, yeah, yeah.

Todd Williams: Trust your, trust your gut. And you know where this comes into play. You go out to [01:45:55] dinner with friends, you never prep, know you meet [01:46:00] people at a party. You never prep know you trust your ability to [01:46:05] understand that person and have a dialogue. So same thing you’re doing from stage. [01:46:10]

Prav Solanki: Yeah. For sure. It’s hard. Um, it’s [01:46:15] getting to that point where I asked my final questions in this podcast. So I’ve [01:46:20] got a series of what I would call they’ve actually become in [01:46:25] this podcast they call Prav final questions. So, um, I’ll hit [01:46:30] you with them. And one of them is, um, imagine, imagine, [01:46:35] Todd, you’ve come to the end of the book and it’s your last day [01:46:40] on the planet and you’re surrounded by your loved ones, and you [01:46:45] need to leave them with three pieces of wisdom. What [01:46:50] would they be and why?

Todd Williams: Funny you [01:46:55] saying that makes me think of. I’ll give you [01:47:00] three and a half. I think the first one [01:47:05] is this one comes to mind because I tell it to my kids all the [01:47:10] time. My two boys. But I say. And [01:47:15] I’ve changed it a little bit over the years. The original quote that I heard was learn a little [01:47:20] bit about everything so you can talk to anyone about anything. I [01:47:25] would now replace the word talk with connect. Okay. Learn a little bit about [01:47:30] everything so you can talk connect with anyone about anything. And I think [01:47:35] when you just learn, constantly study, [01:47:40] learn, grab the magazine that’s sitting next to you. Yeah. Overhear the conversation. I [01:47:45] promise you the amount of times I’ve been able to connect with an audience because [01:47:50] somebody says, well, I do this, and I actually know something about that. [01:47:55] Yeah. So the second one, I [01:48:00] would say I saw crystallised, if you will, in an Instagram [01:48:05] post one time that just seemed to sum up everything I was talking about earlier, but it just said [01:48:10] master the art of observation. And if I literally [01:48:15] look back at my life, it’s been observing and I think [01:48:20] a formal education is phenomenal for those clinical skills that we need. [01:48:25] But the people skills. Life is an incredible school, and if you [01:48:30] learn to observe and watch and test, that’s the key thing. Test it over and over and over. [01:48:35] Does this remain true in this situation? In this situation, it didn’t ring true in this situation. [01:48:40]

Todd Williams: What was different in this situation than these two? You will find patterns that [01:48:45] are worth investing. So master the art of observation. And [01:48:50] there’s another one that I think I came across in the last year. But again, [01:48:55] looking back and that’s kind of what I do, I apply quotes and think, did this ring true in my life? But [01:49:00] whatever you do when it comes to betterment, [01:49:05] do it for you. I think we live in a world where you become better at this [01:49:10] because it’s good for your career You become better at this because it’s good for your promotion. It’s good [01:49:15] for your learn to be better for you. Don’t. [01:49:20] That will have an impact on your career. That will have an impact on [01:49:25] your relationships. But I think we can sniff that out real quick. You [01:49:30] picture your most basic relationship. I can tell when what you’re doing is meant to put me [01:49:35] at ease. What would really put me at ease is you just being you. So grow. [01:49:40] Learn for you. You what [01:49:45] you made me think of that kind of ties into that. When I said three and a half. Yeah. Is. I heard a quote once [01:49:50] that somebody said something to the effect of treat everybody you meet for one day, treat everybody [01:49:55] you meet like, you know, it’s their last day on Earth. [01:50:00] Don’t do it for any reward. Don’t try to wow that person over. But [01:50:05] you have knowledge. They don’t. Treat the interaction with respect. [01:50:10] Boy, that’ll change your life.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, I bet. How [01:50:15] would you like to be remembered?

Todd Williams: Todd [01:50:20] was is a good person.

Prav Solanki: Beautiful. [01:50:25]

Todd Williams: There’s actually a I have a sweatshirt [01:50:30] that says be a good person on it. And I think sometimes we just [01:50:35] we overthink everything. Just a good human. Yeah. [01:50:40] It’s amazing what can happen. Just be a good person. Yeah. [01:50:45]

Prav Solanki: It’s hard. I just want to say thank you for sharing the last couple of hours. [01:50:50] Uh, welcome. Obviously, I was fortunate enough to have a couple of days with [01:50:55] you in that room, and I feel like we’ve just captured a snippet, [01:51:00] a tiny snippet of what we, um, [01:51:05] covered on those two days. And even at the end of [01:51:10] that, it was like, there’s more, right? There’s more. And we’ve connected [01:51:15] since. Right. And, um, so if people want to find out about you told [01:51:20] connect with you what’s what’s the best way for someone to connect? Obviously I’ll put [01:51:25] whatever links in the, in the show notes for the, for the podcast. But what’s the quickest and [01:51:30] easiest way for someone who wants to engage with you to reach out to you? [01:51:35] Talk.

Todd Williams: Yeah. If you want to reach out to me directly. And this is kind of funny too, because [01:51:40] it can almost end up one more little tidbit of something I learned along the way. But [01:51:45] I’ve probably purchased four domain names over the years, [01:51:50] got websites up and running, and then closed them because that’s what [01:51:55] everybody does.

Prav Solanki: Sure.

Todd Williams: Um, back in the day, I’m old enough to remember [01:52:00] when the internet was new and I was trying to create [01:52:05] an email name. Didn’t even know what email was yet. And I was, you [01:52:10] know, creating an email name followed by at AOL, whatever it was. [01:52:15]

Prav Solanki: I remember that.

Todd Williams: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So I typed in Todd Williams and it said [01:52:20] taken. I was I remember thinking to myself, well, who the hell has my name? So [01:52:25] I began trying, you know, Todd Williams, you know, and October taken, [01:52:30] you know, an hour later, you’re breadsticks and Ferris wheels and it’s taken. [01:52:35] And I’m like, okay, something’s broken here. And I looked over and I had a pair of sunglasses [01:52:40] sitting on the table that were made by Maui. Jim and I was living on Maui [01:52:45] at the time, so I tried Maui Todd and it was available, and I took it just [01:52:50] to get this silly email set up. And now, whatever [01:52:55] it is, 30 years later, 27 years later, I’m still Maui Todd at gmail. [01:53:00] That’s my personal email. It’s the easiest way to get Ahold of me. Why? [01:53:05] I’ve never changed it. This is one of those things that really sums [01:53:10] up everything we’ve talked about. There’s the advice that you get from professionals [01:53:15] versus what you see in life. I’ve [01:53:20] been told a million times go with one of the domain names, but [01:53:25] if you knew how many people over the years have said, hey, I heard you five years ago [01:53:30] as an attendee at a conference today, I’m a leader of my company, [01:53:35] and I thought about you, and I remember you told this story about your email, [01:53:40] and that story helped me remember your email. Could you come speak? [01:53:45] So if I have advice that says I shouldn’t [01:53:50] be Maui taught at gmail, and I have 100 clients because I’m Maui taught at Gmail, [01:53:55] I’m sticking with Maui taught at Gmail.

Prav Solanki: Awesome. [01:54:00] Todd. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Todd Williams: You’re welcome. Thank you, I appreciate you. [01:54:05]

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:54:10] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:54:15] Your hosts Payman Langroudi [01:54:20] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got [01:54:25] this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay [01:54:30] for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guests has had to say, because [01:54:35] I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing, [01:54:40] and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value [01:54:45] out of it too. Thank you so so so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Yusra: Speaking up for equality of all human beings is politicised. This is not a [00:00:05] political matter. This is humanity. And as health care professionals in particular, [00:00:10] where we are trained to be humanitarians, where we go into health care because [00:00:15] we care for others, this is incumbent upon us to speak up for our profession, for [00:00:20] our colleagues, for children, for innocent civilians who are trapped. And if you look back [00:00:25] 76 years ago, World War two, prior to that, when human beings were being [00:00:30] killed in their masses, people were silent, turned another cheek and stayed quiet because [00:00:35] they had privilege. It wasn’t them being killed and they were afraid to speak up. And also it was legal. [00:00:40] So just because something is legal doesn’t mean it’s right. And if it isn’t for the courage of [00:00:45] people to stand up against human oppression, there would be no change.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:55] is mind movers moving [00:01:00] the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. [00:01:05] Your hosts Rhona Eskander and [00:01:10] Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Welcome to this week’s [00:01:15] episode of Mind Movers, The Mental Health Podcast. As a little side from Dental [00:01:20] Leaders, which is my favourite. And today we have doctor Yusra Al-mukhtar [00:01:25] and it’s so exciting because she’s actually her sister Zainab, who is a good friend of mine [00:01:30] and her mother, Doctor Farida. Yeah, she has also been on the [00:01:35] podcast on the Dental Leaders one. So we have a whole family gathering coming here. So scroll [00:01:40] back to the previous podcasts with them because people love those ones [00:01:45] and I think you’re a real force as a family doctor. Yasra is an award [00:01:50] winning facial aesthetician who’s actually a dentist, and we’ll get into that. So she’s GDC [00:01:55] registered. She has an award winning practice in Liverpool, which practices facial aesthetics [00:02:00] and dentistry. She’s also a mother of two, married to a psychiatrist. [00:02:05] Yes. So medical because the Arabs like to marry my [00:02:10] dad and mom, doctors and everything like that. So I’m well versed with that. And today we’re going to have a [00:02:15] really interesting discussion. The reason why I wanted to invite you on the podcast, because I don’t often [00:02:20] invite health care professionals, is because I think that her platform offers more than just [00:02:25] facial aesthetics and dentistry. And what I mean by that, it is a platform [00:02:30] that represents humanitarian causes. It also talks about beauty, fashion and [00:02:35] so forth. And I think that when people show that diversity, they develop a different [00:02:40] kind of following. And you can have very interesting conversations about vulnerability, [00:02:45] about hope, about love, about dreams, about controversy. So Doctor Jester, for me [00:02:50] was the perfect person to invite. So welcome.

Yusra: Thank you so much. What a lovely introduction. Thank you.

Rhona Eskander: I told you. [00:02:55]

Yusra: Yes.

Rhona Eskander: I always make sure that I. I speak the truth when I’m speaking about. [00:03:00] The only thing that.

Yusra: I would add is I have a clinic in London and I report.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing. Well, you know what? To be fair, I have [00:03:05] actually visited your clinic in London, but I just assumed when you had opened up the flagship in Liverpool that you’d left [00:03:10] that. Oh, no, you’ve still got that. So yeah. Okay. Amazing. So [00:03:15] yes, I like to start things from the beginning. Could you please tell us a little bit [00:03:20] about your background? You know, where you’re from, where your family are from and how you ended [00:03:25] up in the UK.

Yusra: So my dad is from Iraq. He’s actually half Iraqi, [00:03:30] half Azerbaijani. My mum is, um, Yemeni and Turkish, and [00:03:35] we were born in Scotland. Myself, Zainab and I were born in Scotland. So as we gettle [00:03:40] and stayed there until I was six and then moved to London, stayed in London until I [00:03:45] was about nine, and then we moved to England because my mum was a dental surgeon as well, and her passion [00:03:50] and interest and focus was implantology. So 30 years ago, I’m [00:03:55] giving away my age now that dental implants was not a thing in the Middle East. It was not a thing in Oman. [00:04:00] So she had an opportunity to bring it to Oman. And so obviously she didn’t [00:04:05] say no to that opportunity. And we went there and it was incredible, like best years of my life. We stayed [00:04:10] there for about three years and then came back to London and [00:04:15] stayed here until after I got married and then, you know, moved begrudgingly [00:04:20] to Liverpool.

Rhona Eskander: Oh, wow. I was like thinking, you have such a nice international accent. [00:04:25] I do love a Scottish accent. But, you know, I definitely picked up I came here when I was five, [00:04:30] but I was like, I sounds so English. I would say, that’s amazing. And [00:04:35] your parents, why did they choose the UK?

Yusra: Oh great question. [00:04:40] So my dad was a surgeon in Iraq okay. And he [00:04:45] worked there and did a lot of his training there. And over there they had something called conscription, where [00:04:50] at the time you had to be enrolled in the army. So he was an army doctor, but [00:04:55] he had the opportunity to study abroad. So he went to Dubai and he studied there. And then he [00:05:00] came to the UK to complete his studies. And my mum had done her dental [00:05:05] surgery, her undergraduate degree in Romania, it was called Somatology. And [00:05:10] after that she moved to the UK because her brother was a surgeon in the UK [00:05:15] and he said come here. So she came here and she actually she met my dad while they were both uncle. [00:05:20] My mum did oral maxillofacial surgery like my parents literally, she says she was on call, she fell [00:05:25] asleep in the mess and the doctor’s mess and she woke up and there was an Arab man staring at her. And that was my dad’s. [00:05:30]

Rhona Eskander: Love it. I love that so much. And how was life growing up in the UK for you? [00:05:35] Well, Scotland first actually it’s not even the UK.

Yusra: Amazing. I absolutely love Scotland. We still have a house [00:05:40] in Scotland. I have a real affinity to Scottish people. I identify as kind of Scottish as well. [00:05:45] Um, I love that. Yeah. I think, you know, if they ever break away, then I’m going to Scotland. Yeah. [00:05:50] Like that free health, free child free education for our children. So [00:05:55] yeah, I mean I loved it, I enjoyed it, but I was six and then in the UK [00:06:00] it was all great. When I went to Ireland, that was great as well. And I kind of knew that I wanted to go [00:06:05] into healthcare from quite a young age. Partly, I guess, because of exposure to my, my what [00:06:10] my parents were doing. They were always in the service of others and that impacted me. [00:06:15] But also, I had an accident when I was eight years old and, um, that ended up [00:06:20] causing a facial deformity because I cut my lip from this corner right down [00:06:25] to my chin. So I had a really prominent scar, and people would always ask me about it, literally until I [00:06:30] had scar treatment. So my whole life people would ask me, and I remember actually, after the accident, [00:06:35] I wrote a letter to the surgeon and I said, I’m going to do this one day. I’m going to help others. So [00:06:40] I knew from a young age that I wanted to go into health care. And then when I came back to [00:06:45] the UK from Oman, I went to a all girls school, a muslim [00:06:50] school in northwest London. Okay. Um, and then I went to a Jewish school [00:06:55] for my, um, my A Levels in Golders Green. Which [00:07:00] one?

Rhona Eskander: I knew all the like.

Yusra: Henrietta.

Rhona Eskander: Barnett. Oh, my God know it. I was so not smart enough to get in there. [00:07:05] They definitely rejected me. I was definitely not. But I knew Henrietta Barnett really well. Yeah, because it was [00:07:10] the dream. My parents really wanted to go. I was just not. I was just not a smart child. I had to work really hard. But, you know, I made [00:07:15] it when I made it to school, but, um. That’s incredible. So you must have been incredibly academic child, because [00:07:20] Henrietta Barnett was very academic. Yeah.

Yusra: It was competitive to get into it. I was I mean, was I academic? [00:07:25] Not not until I moved to Iowa. And I think up until then I was kind of [00:07:30] climbing trees, jumping off walls, not really interested in academic academia at all. And I think [00:07:35] the turning point was to two parts of my story. Turning point one was when [00:07:40] I must have been around nine, eight, nine before [00:07:45] the accident. And, uh, was it before? Maybe it was, no, it was after. And I came [00:07:50] home and my mum said, actually, we got in the car, my mum said, okay, show me your report. And Zainab, my sister, showed the report and [00:07:55] she was like, you know, she was studious at that time and she got A’s and B’s. And [00:08:00] then my mum said, show me a report. And mine had like season B’s. And she was like, well, okay. And she didn’t say anything. [00:08:05] She didn’t reprimand me or shame me, literally. She just went and I said, mama, I [00:08:10] think they swapped my reports in mistake. And she was like, oh, okay. It’s a mistake. [00:08:15] So smart, by the way.

Yusra: Like, I really look up to her and how she raised [00:08:20] us because she knew that I was embarrassed. That’s why [00:08:25] I said, this is not my report. I felt shame, and so she recognised that [00:08:30] immediately and went, okay, that’s fine. And we used to go and we used to go to McDonald’s after [00:08:35] getting our reports as like a, a treat. And I thought, I’m [00:08:40] still going to go to McDonald’s. And she said, let’s go to McDonald’s. I was like, great. So we went to McDonald’s, [00:08:45] came home, and then my dad, Serge and Arab, you know, hierarchy. Anything less [00:08:50] than 100% is not good enough. And, um, bless his heart. And he [00:08:55] came home and he looked at my report and he goes, why is this your report card? And I licked it and ran [00:09:00] upstairs. And my mom said to him, Amir, his name is Amir. Amir, don’t tell [00:09:05] her off. She already knows and she’s going to do this on her own. And so me as an eight year old heard, [00:09:10] oh, I need to fix this on my own.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Yusra: So that’s when I started to hold myself [00:09:15] accountable and actually start to care about academia. Before that, I [00:09:20] really was just literally, I’m not even joking. Climbing up walls and getting stuck in trees. Yeah, I was very sporty. [00:09:25] Um, and then I think then shortly after that we moved to online and in [00:09:30] online there was an entrance exam. Yeah. And you know, before that I didn’t really know [00:09:35] much about exams. So when we had the entrance exam we got in. But it was very difficult [00:09:40] to challenge because you had to. My mum had a decision where she could either [00:09:45] have put us in the expatriate classes, where we’d learn everything in the British curriculum, or [00:09:50] in the classes that everyone else went to where they would learn history, geography [00:09:55] in Arabic, which was hard for us. And she was like, no, you can do it. And so I thought, oh [00:10:00] no, again, we’re going to have to do it. Because there was this, there was this unwavering [00:10:05] belief. It was, yeah, you’re going to fix this, you’re gonna be fine. And so I just that [00:10:10] I think is, is when I became super academic and studious, amazing.

Rhona Eskander: So I think [00:10:15] it’s interesting that you say that your mom was that helpful. Buffer, [00:10:20] I think it’s really important because what I’ve had my dad on the podcast as well, [00:10:25] but there was definitely like this thing of my parents couldn’t afford to send us to private school, so they worked really hard [00:10:30] to send us to private school. So you had to do well. It just wasn’t an option. And you often see, like [00:10:35] there’s this Arabic guy that I actually follow and he does this meme, and he was like, point of view, when your [00:10:40] parents see, you get 93%, he’s like, where did the 7% go? You know, like it’s [00:10:45] just classic, you know? So I absolutely love that you’re on another podcast. [00:10:50] Um, I heard you speaking about your father and where he was from, and [00:10:55] how nerve wracking it was, because at one point he actually had to leave the UK and return back home. Do [00:11:00] you want to tell us a little bit about that?

Yusra: Yeah. So that was all after [00:11:05] the Iraq war, the invasion of Iraq, which happened after 911. [00:11:10] So I think I was must have been around 16 at the time. And I remember [00:11:15] the country became very polarised and anti-Islamic sentiment started to happen because it [00:11:20] was attributed to these terrorists who were from an Islamic background. And I remember walking [00:11:25] in the streets to Henrietta Barnett and being told to f off back to my country. Wow. And being really confused [00:11:30] as the 16 year old thinking, what did they mean? And where? Where is [00:11:35] my country? I was born here. Where do I f off back to? It was pretty.

Rhona Eskander: Post 911.

Yusra: This [00:11:40] is post 911.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, fine Was 911 also difficult or not during that time. [00:11:45] Yeah it was.

Yusra: Difficult because of the the it was an extremist terror attack. [00:11:50] It was difficult for every human being. Yes. Scary. Yeah. But then what also happened [00:11:55] was stigmatisation. You know suddenly it was if you see a man with a beard and a bag, be careful. [00:12:00] And a stereotype started to form and that stereotype continued and progressed into if [00:12:05] you see a woman with a scarf, she also doesn’t belong. She’s also out there, you know. And so [00:12:10] I think I and a lot of Muslim women who wear a scarf [00:12:15] and can’t hide their faith were subjected to attacks. So and then [00:12:20] there was this claim of weapons of mass destruction, which later was found out to be a lie, [00:12:25] but based on that, Iraq was invaded and when it was invaded, one of the, [00:12:30] you know, lots and lots of bombing, obviously carpet bombing and lots of people were killed [00:12:35] and there was a looting and chaos and and so on. And there was a destruction of the health care system. [00:12:40] Now, my dad’s a surgeon, so I think he immediately felt a sense of responsibility [00:12:45] and duty to help. But also it hits really close to home because his brother, [00:12:50] during this chaos and anarchy and, you know, jails people busted out of jails, [00:12:55] criminals that should have been in jail were no longer in jail. People were looting. It was just chaos in Iraq [00:13:00] and kidnapped my uncle. So his brother and held him for five [00:13:05] days. I said in my podcast story and I was corrected. It was five days and he was tortured and beaten. [00:13:10] And then the brothers all came together and raised money to get him out because he was held [00:13:15] ransom.

Yusra: And that’s what they were doing at the time. They were taking people that they felt had money or [00:13:20] had affiliation of people who could pay and hurt them and held them ransom. So [00:13:25] he was one of the lucky ones who who lived and he was dumped in, [00:13:30] you know, in the middle of the desert and really left for dead, picked up by someone random [00:13:35] taken to his house. And his family didn’t even recognise him. His wife and his children didn’t recognise him because he was so [00:13:40] badly beaten and swollen and bruised. And so I think that was really traumatic. That was traumatic for us, [00:13:45] that was traumatic for my father. And they were then expatriated and brought to the UK as [00:13:50] refugees and lived with us for a while. So we heard kind of by proxy, what it [00:13:55] was like in war. You know, my cousin talks about how the house, you know, the lights went off and the bombs [00:14:00] went off, we’re going off and the windows shattered. And how they looked outside the window and they saw dead bodies on [00:14:05] the ground. These were the things that we were hearing about at that young age. And shortly after [00:14:10] that, my dad took a sabbatical from the UK, his position as a surgeon and, [00:14:15] um, moved to Iraq to work as a [00:14:20] health advisor in the largest medical city complex in Baghdad, and to basically rebuild [00:14:25] it. But even that was dangerous. You know, every time a bomb went off, did your.

Rhona Eskander: Family react to that decision that [00:14:30] your mom and you guys.

Yusra: So it wasn’t discussed with us [00:14:35] as children. We weren’t like it wasn’t an opinion of, you know, are you okay [00:14:40] with us going? It was obviously a discussion had happened between himself and my mum, and my [00:14:45] mum was supportive but scared. So she lost a lot of weight while he was away. She [00:14:50] had to raise four children by herself. She didn’t know if her husband’s coming back every time a [00:14:55] bomb went off. She didn’t know if her husband was dead. So we’d always be waiting for a call to say, is he still there or [00:15:00] not? And in that time he had bodyguards because he worked as a prominent, you know, he’s a health advisor [00:15:05] and his bodyguard was killed. So it was real, real anarchy. He was gardening [00:15:10] outside his office, and he opened the door and he was gone. And they found him shot dead in the basement of the hospital. So [00:15:15] these are the kinds of things that was the norm. And so it was a really stressful time.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:15:20] really appreciate you sharing that. And one of the reasons that I ask is because I kind of had a memory blank. So I was [00:15:25] actually born in Saudi, which people don’t know. So my parents met in the hospital in Saudi similar, and [00:15:30] we lived in Aramco where I was born. So again, it was like that community complex sort of life. [00:15:35] Then we moved to Bahrain because that’s where my dad got his second job and my sister was born in Bahrain. And actually it was during the [00:15:40] Gulf War. And I remember hearing the raids and I [00:15:45] remember hearing like the sirens and stuff as a child. And all of a sudden at school, I was running down the street [00:15:50] with gas masks, but I had this like memory blank, and the memories only started coming up quite [00:15:55] recently. So it’s really funny, as children, how we guard ourselves from trauma. Like I [00:16:00] just didn’t remember.

Payman Langroudi: Totally.

Rhona Eskander: But that’s pretty traumatic. Imagine being at school, which me and my sister [00:16:05] were. I must have been about four years old. Tania was like one. And [00:16:10] you remember that? And I still. And I remember my nanny, like, coming and carrying her and [00:16:15] the masks being put on and stuff, you know, and we were just living like that. And [00:16:20] obviously when I came to London for many, many years, I just didn’t think about [00:16:25] it. And now I have memories and I can remember quite distinctly running, But [00:16:30] it’s funny because I find [00:16:35] when I’m in physical situations of stress. So, for example, I [00:16:40] don’t know, like in a car that’s driving very fast or [00:16:45] skydiving or bungee jumping, I actually don’t get scared, but I’m more scared of [00:16:50] emotional threats to my safety. So I’m the kind of person that will panic about how people [00:16:55] react. If I upset them, about confrontation, about what people think of me as, [00:17:00] you know, all these different things. But when it comes to physical stress, and I wonder somehow if that is related [00:17:05] to the types of things that I’ve grown up with. So that’s a.

Yusra: Question for Hassan’s [00:17:10] psychiatrist.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I absolutely love the fact that he is a psychiatrist. Did [00:17:15] that teach you a lot in your relationship.

Yusra: People always ask [00:17:20] me, does he read my mind? And I say, I wish, I [00:17:25] wish because the socks still end up on the side of the bed and not in the washing [00:17:30] basket. So if you read my mind, that wouldn’t happen. Um, but he’s a very, very patient, understanding [00:17:35] man. You know, he’s incredible. And he’s taught me a lot in raising our children as well. [00:17:40] And his kind of his passion is child psychiatry and I love it. Trauma management. He deals with a lot of children [00:17:45] who’ve undergone undergone trauma and adults who had unresolved trauma as [00:17:50] children. So that’s his speciality.

Rhona Eskander: And does he like combining the medical [00:17:55] aspect with the psychological? Because very much my experience with psychiatrists before have been [00:18:00] very much like let’s go down medication route, which I think is a bandaid and not getting down to the root [00:18:05] cause of things. So I’d like to think psychiatrists with the new innovation of [00:18:10] thinking like Gab or Matt, who I know that you’re a fan of, um, that they’re actually [00:18:15] understanding. We can’t do that. We can’t just numb people.

Payman Langroudi: We kind of their role. Right? I mean, if [00:18:20] you want to talk to someone, you can talk to a therapist.

Rhona Eskander: You still maybe can help us understand.

Payman Langroudi: That psychiatrist [00:18:25] is kind of to to to bridge the medical with the.

Yusra: So psychiatry is a medical [00:18:30] speciality. But the I think this is an older generation versus younger generation [00:18:35] psychiatry bridge so to speak. So he always says I’m very psychologically [00:18:40] minded psychiatrist. He will sit there for hours talking to his patients, and [00:18:45] I think he’s quite against just putting this bandaid on. He describes it in the same way that you just have. [00:18:50] You cannot treat body without understanding mind, and you can’t treat mind without understanding Bodhi. [00:18:55] And that holistic mindset is something that I have incorporated into my facial setting practice. [00:19:00] And that’s how he also views his psychiatry. So when he’s treating patients, it isn’t [00:19:05] what’s your symptoms? Your symptoms? It’s let’s go back to the source. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Which I think is massively [00:19:10] under misunderstood within our profession as a whole because we constantly [00:19:15] and I think as scientists, we treat it in a very scientific way. There’s [00:19:20] a problem. Try to find something that’s tangible and that you can see as the solution. And [00:19:25] when we look into it deeper, we recognise now that there are so many different factors [00:19:30] that contribute to somebody’s well-being. I think there are more severe diseases. And unfortunately, [00:19:35] when you’ve got to the point of like severe bipolar or severe schizophrenia or any of those [00:19:40] diseases, that’s when you have to know that you have to actually implement different modes of [00:19:45] treatment to also protect the public, protect people around, etc. and I think that’s where it becomes a little bit more complicated. [00:19:50]

Yusra: I mean, that’s a medical that’s a medical diagnosis and may require medical intervention. And also [00:19:55] adults are different to children. Correct. When you’re dealing with an adult mind that has already set and has preset [00:20:00] schemas and experiences, it’s a lot harder to reverse engineer [00:20:05] when you have a child who’s undergone trauma, you can help them to understand that trauma and not [00:20:10] manifest it so that it so that it means something and and ends up incorporating [00:20:15] and and impacting their life decisions. So if you get in there early, you can actually in his view, [00:20:20] and this is what he says is change the trajectory of that child’s life so that the trauma [00:20:25] doesn’t define them, so that psychosis or that bipolar may have [00:20:30] been initiated by a trauma or triggered by a trauma. It may be an a hormonal [00:20:35] imbalance, a neurotransmitter imbalance, a whole host of different things. There’s genetic predisposition. But [00:20:40] as dealing with children is different with dealing with adults, because you can [00:20:45] change the line or the path that they go, you know, they travel through. Yeah, for. [00:20:50]

Rhona Eskander: Sure. I was, um, reading. I am still reading the book The Body Keeps the Score. Oh yeah, one [00:20:55] of my favourite books, because it talks a lot about science and all this stuff, and how the body really does react [00:21:00] to the mind, as it were. And unfortunately, as you know, a lot of children aren’t [00:21:05] in a position to be able to have access to these people, and by the time [00:21:10] they can access them, they may have gone into teenagehood or adulthood. And, [00:21:15] you know, that’s a whole different discussion. But it’s so complex because we treat we [00:21:20] try to treat psychiatry, psychology, psychotherapy as almost [00:21:25] a sort of let’s go into a system and dare I say, you know, something like the NHS [00:21:30] where they have limited resources, funds, people, etc. let’s go into like a part where we can [00:21:35] do treat as many people as possible and you can understand they have limited time, money and resources, but it’s [00:21:40] not necessarily the best way because these things are so multifactorial and everybody’s so individual to their response [00:21:45] to these different things. So, um, amazing what your husband’s doing.

Payman Langroudi: So where did you study [00:21:50] dentistry?

Yusra: King’s College London, but I also did an intercalated BSc at Imperial [00:21:55] College London, so I graduated from both.

Payman Langroudi: What were you like?

Yusra: What [00:22:00] was I like as a geek? I was a real geek. Yeah, massively. I was a real [00:22:05] geek. I was really into my studies. I really wanted to do well. And [00:22:10] I did do well. Quite well from undergraduate level. You know, I always had [00:22:15] one coming out thinking I failed, but I would get distinction, which my sister would always like [00:22:20] be like, oh.

Payman Langroudi: Were you at the same time?

Yusra: No, I actually she so she’s [00:22:25] a year older than me, but she took a couple of years out because she [00:22:30] went down. She started doing optometry, and then she decided to, uh, redo [00:22:35] her A-levels. And then she came back and did dentistry. So I ended up being going starting dentistry [00:22:40] first. But because I did an integrated BSc, I then [00:22:45] came down. So we joined years in year five together. Yeah that’s amazing. [00:22:50] Yeah. So so we graduated from dentistry together.

Rhona Eskander: So let’s talk now. So I mean you [00:22:55] clearly was a were a superstar at dentistry. How did you end up in the realm of facial aesthetics? [00:23:00]

Yusra: Great question. So I always knew I wanted to do surgery. I was really inspired [00:23:05] by both my mom and my dad. They were both surgeons, you know.

Rhona Eskander: Why didn’t you choose medicine?

Yusra: Because [00:23:10] I actually was going to choose medicine. And then at 16, I went to [00:23:15] watch my dad in theatre, and he was working in Scotland at the time [00:23:20] and I fainted in theatre. Really? Yeah, I was, I was so embarrassed. He was doing like a hernia operation [00:23:25] and and like, he had all these, you know, the guts and the intestines. And he was talking about what [00:23:30] they were going to cook in the evening. And I’m like, who is this man? That’s fine. And then the next patient, which [00:23:35] is when I fainted, was a patient who he was taking out a cyst on their hands. And of course, they stopped the blood flow in [00:23:40] order to operate. And he was trying to teach me about the tendon and he was like, look. And I’m like, [00:23:45] where’s her blood? And he was like, no, no, don’t worry about that. And I was like, oh my God, she’s dead. And [00:23:50] then I fainted and and then and then I stayed in the hospital for a long time with [00:23:55] him. I was, I was there for like a couple of weeks. But I realised that with medicine, you’re only ever [00:24:00] treating sick patients. You don’t. It’s not like this is exactly.

Rhona Eskander: The reason I chose dentistry, because [00:24:05] I said you always see people when they’re sick. And it’s just I don’t want that, you [00:24:10] know, like the relationships you form in dentistry, like I see patients, yes, you can [00:24:15] change their life, but you see them every six months. You’re doing preventative care like we’re.

Payman Langroudi: You know, we talk about [00:24:20] medicine or dentistry because they’re totally different to each other. I’d say dentistry is closer [00:24:25] to hairdressing. What funny than it is to medicine.

Rhona Eskander: The original dentists were hairdressers. [00:24:30] Did you know this? Like 17th century.

Payman Langroudi: Closer to hairdressing? It is to medicine. Well, because it’s a similar. [00:24:35] It’s a similar life. Yeah. You’ve got people coming in, right? You’re seeing them regularly. [00:24:40] Like everything about it is similar to being a hairdresser, you know.

Yusra: Wow. I mean, I reject. [00:24:45]

Payman Langroudi: What’s wrong with Harrison. What’s wrong with it?

Yusra: There’s nothing wrong with it. Nothing wrong with being [00:24:50] a doctor. I couldn’t be a different thing.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a degree, I think.

Rhona Eskander: I think, I [00:24:55] think actually, I actually think we’re specialists in medicine. I think we’re specialists.

Yusra: You’re hyper specialised in [00:25:00] medicine. First of all, it’s not that there is something wrong, but there’s a big differentiation. [00:25:05] Dentistry is a doctorate degree, so to speak. Bachelor of dental [00:25:10] surgery. You come out being a doctor in dental surgery or in dentistry, and [00:25:15] you are treating patients who have an absence of health. You’re treating disease, [00:25:20] you’re nurturing them back to health. You’re dealing with huge risk. It’s [00:25:25] and it’s a skill set. And that’s why you have something called license to cut. You don’t have license to cut tissue not [00:25:30] hair. Hairdressing is completely different. I’m saying.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:25:35] day to day, the day.

Yusra: To day is very different. How many how many hairdressers pick up a drill and [00:25:40] have to deal with blood and saliva?

Payman Langroudi: You know, I’ve been a dentist. I know what it is [00:25:45] to be a dentist. I think he.

Rhona Eskander: Means the regular, like clients coming in, like so they come in to.

Payman Langroudi: My brother. My [00:25:50] brother’s a doctor. Yeah. His day to day is completely different to yours. Completely different. He [00:25:55] works in the hospital. You’ve seen your dad. You’ve seen your dad again.

Yusra: So doctors can be psychiatrists who have [00:26:00] no who don’t deal with blood. Doctors can be general practitioners who don’t. Anaesthetists, [00:26:05] anaesthetists. There’s a there’s a variation of what being a doctor is. [00:26:10] This is just a hyper specialised form. So I hear your point I just disagree. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Okay. [00:26:15] So let’s talk about facial aesthetics. Like we haven’t got into how you got into that. So yeah. [00:26:20]

Yusra: So then when I qualified from dentistry and I chose dentistry for that [00:26:25] reason for the, for the people aspect, to be honest, because I saw my mum always seeing patients [00:26:30] and understanding their backgrounds and asking them about their relationships and their children and their marriage and their divorce, [00:26:35] that’s that’s unique to dentistry and I guess also hairdressing. Um, and [00:26:40] so then I did, I did, I decided because my mum was doing a lot of implant dentistry, it was really inspired [00:26:45] by that.

Rhona Eskander: And that didn’t make you feel sick, like, you know, you said when you were watching the hernia and the tendons and all that stuff, [00:26:50] you fainted. Yeah, that that was fine. Almost like being in the mouth.

Yusra: I think it was the concept [00:26:55] of the person not speaking. Yeah. It was like it almost felt like they were not there and dead and felt like [00:27:00] a violation. And of course it’s not. It’s curing disease. But that’s how it felt to me. [00:27:05] I didn’t I wasn’t I was too young to understand. And I even struggled when we did dissection when we had to dissect. [00:27:10] I, you know, at the beginning I really struggled with the concept of cutting people who were corpses. [00:27:15] You know, I really, really struggled with that. Um, but anyway, so then after I qualified, [00:27:20] I went into, I went to my mom and I said, teach me how to do implants. And she just said to me, no shortcuts [00:27:25] here. You got to go and do surgery like I did. So that’s what I did. I went and I did [00:27:30] oral maxillofacial surgery, and I ended up doing it and I did an show. Then I [00:27:35] went back and I did something called Cord Development Post. And then I went back and I did another post. [00:27:40] So I spent three and a half years and I became I became speciality doctor in oral surgery. [00:27:45] And then I got pregnant and um, and during my time in the hospital. [00:27:50] So we were treating patients. In fact, you’re treating patients who were trauma patients, road, road [00:27:55] traffic accidents, oral maxillofacial cancers, but also those who have craniofacial, [00:28:00] skeletal, congenital deformities or abnormalities where they might have an underdeveloped [00:28:05] jaw or an overdeveloped jaw.

Yusra: Jewel. And how that is treated surgically is [00:28:10] by breaking the jaw and realigning. Yeah. And this is, you know, when you’re talking about these surgeries, [00:28:15] these are major surgeries, and patients often are young. They’re, you know, they start their journey [00:28:20] when they’re 16 with their orthodontics. It’s very multidisciplinary. And then they have their surgery around [00:28:25] 18. And what was lacking at that time, and I can only speak about my experience [00:28:30] then, not now, but what was lacking at that time was psychological support. So these [00:28:35] patients were having surgery, waking up looking very different. And then we’d [00:28:40] wire their upper and lower jaw together because they couldn’t eat. It had to be completely immobilised, and [00:28:45] they’d lose a heck of a lot of weight because they were sticking to a liquid diet and [00:28:50] they were utterly depressed. Although objectively, they looked better. They were depressed because they no longer [00:28:55] recognise the person that they were looking at in the mirror, and there was no psychological [00:29:00] support or adaptation for that process. And so they come in and [00:29:05] you look at it from, from a dental, aesthetic, maxillofacial point of view and go, oh, brilliant.

Yusra: Yeah, yeah. And [00:29:10] they’d be like, I don’t know who I am, I don’t recognise myself. And it’s not just that that they were [00:29:15] contending, contending with, which was their self-image, it was that everyone around them felt [00:29:20] at liberty to comment because it was such a drastic change. So people would say to them, My God, you had surgery, [00:29:25] you know, and what happened to your face? And so they would have to justify [00:29:30] and explain themselves to other people while they still didn’t understand it. So I’d be that [00:29:35] kind of that doctor holding their hands and supporting them through that. And it just dawned on me one [00:29:40] day, and actually, I didn’t order in the hospital about that, but psychological support and that these patients [00:29:45] need support. They’re young. They’re not fully formed adults in their 30s who can [00:29:50] really contend and understand all the risks and implications. And then I thought, I thought there must [00:29:55] be something that we can do non-surgically that can create similar change, but without [00:30:00] the trauma, without the physical and the mental trauma. Then I started to Google literally, I was uncle when [00:30:05] I was googling online and I read up about non-surgical facial [00:30:10] prosthetics being used not in the field of vanity alone, but [00:30:15] in reconstruction.

Yusra: And you know, I do lots of rhinoplasties [00:30:20] now, non-surgical rhinoplasties. That’s why that’s where it stemmed from. And I and I thought, [00:30:25] but at that time, you know, we’re talking 11, 12, 12 years ago, 13 [00:30:30] years ago. Patient facial aesthetics was Botox. Three areas [00:30:35] nasolabial folds, lip fillers. There was no real global [00:30:40] understanding or discussion about the capacity to create empowering [00:30:45] transformations. Reconstruction. It was more rejuvenation. So anyway, I found [00:30:50] a course that taught doctors and dentists and I thought, okay, this is suited to me. Picks up the phone [00:30:55] and I said, Zainab, let’s go on this course. She was like, ah, Botox, fillers. I don’t know, I don’t think so. I was like, no, [00:31:00] trust me, let’s go with this course. So anyway, I ended up sending all my friends and we went on this course together. [00:31:05] There was like six of us and now everyone has their own clinics. Amazing. And that’s [00:31:10] how I started. But I always knew that my why wasn’t [00:31:15] just wasn’t vanity unknown and wasn’t, you know, I wasn’t satisfied [00:31:20] with the idea of doing lip fillers. Not that there’s anything wrong with it, but it didn’t align [00:31:25] with my value sets and what I wanted to provide to my patients. So did [00:31:30] you almost did.

Rhona Eskander: You almost instantly leave dentistry after that course? Like how was the transition? [00:31:35]

Yusra: No, I didn’t alongside actually, the first person I treated was my dental nurse. Okay. And then her [00:31:40] mum and then, you know, just kind of grew from there. And then staff at the hospital wanted it because they’re [00:31:45] like, oh, you do facial aesthetics. Can you get rid of my nasal labial folds? And I did it. But again, it didn’t satisfy [00:31:50] me. I couldn’t have gone from facial surgery to that and it wouldn’t have it [00:31:55] just didn’t satisfy me. And then so I started to push boundaries and, and went [00:32:00] on more advanced courses and recognised the potential of facial aesthetics to create [00:32:05] incredible reconstructive change. And that’s what we do in dentistry. I mean, what are we doing when people [00:32:10] talk about cosmetic dentistry or dentistry is cosmetic? Yeah, all dentistry is creating aesthetic [00:32:15] change. And as you know, it’s not vanity alone. Patients come with a story or a [00:32:20] burden. There’s a motivation of why they come and seek a smile makeover. It’s because they feel held back [00:32:25] by their smile. And in society, what we do when it comes to dentistry is we say [00:32:30] society encourages people. They go, yeah, you should definitely go and get your teeth whitened. You should definitely go and [00:32:35] get your teeth composite. I always say that it’s more of a stigma.

Rhona Eskander: I’m like people people [00:32:40] accept. Cosmetic dentistry is not really changing who you are because someone said, I’m getting [00:32:45] braces, whitening and a bit of composite bonding. They’re like, sure, veneers is a bit more of a stigma. I think a lot of people [00:32:50] aren’t like open. But if you talk about the fact that you want Botox, filler, nose [00:32:55] job, like any of that stuff, it definitely more of a stigma around it. I think 100%.

Yusra: There is [00:33:00] and there shouldn’t be, because why are we, as a society, encouraging our patients to have orthodontic alignment? [00:33:05] But the moment that they have a bump on their nose and they want to align that they’re not well aligned? Yeah, [00:33:10] yeah, you know that that stigma is wrong. So a huge part of my work has been breaking down [00:33:15] that stigma and changing the narrative that what we do is skin deep, because the reality is it [00:33:20] isn’t. And patients often come with burdens and stories, and the treatments enable [00:33:25] them not to put a mask on, but actually to take a mask off and to live without [00:33:30] feeling held back by their appearance. Um, so another.

Payman Langroudi: Thing, but one [00:33:35] of the stigmas of facial aesthetics, if you if you go and talk to my buddies [00:33:40] and say, yeah, specialists say there’ll be this immediate new thing. Yeah. And it’s [00:33:45] because for men. Yeah, well, it’s a bit like cosmetic dentistry. If [00:33:50] if it’s done badly.

Rhona Eskander: It’s done really.

Payman Langroudi: Badly. Then. Then you can see it. Yes.

Yusra: Absolutely. Yeah. [00:33:55]

Payman Langroudi: So imagine the number of people who’ve had facial aesthetic treatments and very cheap. It’s done very well. [00:34:00] If it’s done very well.

Yusra: You don’t know they’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Done. Most of my friends wouldn’t know at all. Yeah. So [00:34:05] you only know it. You only realise it’s happening when it’s done badly.

Yusra: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And I was going [00:34:10] to ask you living in Liverpool.

Yusra: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: That’s aesthetic that people want up there [00:34:15] is different. Different how to sometimes what you might want to [00:34:20] give them your apps. How does how does that work.

Yusra: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: How do you deal with that. [00:34:25]

Yusra: So I moved to Liverpool in 2016, um, because my husband got a [00:34:30] job in the primary mental health. Were you both in.

Rhona Eskander: London at that point then until that point? Sorry. [00:34:35] Yeah.

Yusra: And I thought, okay, well, faces and teeth are everywhere at this point. I was still doing both, [00:34:40] and I quickly realised that the aesthetics in Liverpool is very different to [00:34:45] London. And I love the report. It’s like it’s one of the friendliest, nicest, kindest, [00:34:50] funniest. Yeah. The people are amazing. Yeah. And by the way, the scientists shifted. But at that [00:34:55] time Bigger was better. Correct. And the faker, the better. And they were very open [00:35:00] about it. You know, they have with their brows they have something called Scales Brow. On a Friday evening, [00:35:05] women go out with their curlers in their hairs. They are unapologetic about looking [00:35:10] good and good for them. But when it came to facial aesthetics, [00:35:15] what ended up happening was distortion became the norm and the lips would walk in before the rest of [00:35:20] the face, and they would come in with already overtreated, overfilled lips and say to me, [00:35:25] can I have more in? And nobody would ever say no. So they never heard the word no. And [00:35:30] they’d sit in front of me and I would perform a holistic medical consultation [00:35:35] because I have a duty to do no harm. And I would say, I can’t do that because it’s not in your best [00:35:40] interest. And and of course, remember, patients only see themselves as a reflection of themselves. [00:35:45] They never see what we see. So I only see myself in a mirror [00:35:50] or a photo. But you see me in real life, so they don’t appreciate what they look like in [00:35:55] all angles. They only see this 2D image of a 3D object, and so they don’t realise [00:36:00] that their lips are projecting more than their chin. Or there’s migration. And so I’d be taking these photos and videos and, [00:36:05] you know, it was like a big educational process. And patients would often say to me, if you don’t do it, I’ll go to skin [00:36:10] clinic and I’d be like, that’s fine, you can go. But that’s my reputation on your face. And [00:36:15] then they would go and they would feed that back to their mom, their auntie, their friends, and.

Rhona Eskander: They’d be like, I agree.

Yusra: I agree. [00:36:20] Yeah, right. And then next thing you know that mom comes in and says, you said no to my daughter. Thank you. [00:36:25] And what can you do for me? Yeah. And so at the beginning I really thought, oh, I will never do [00:36:30] well in Liverpool because my niche is natural, natural, look fresh, [00:36:35] not fake, look good, not done. That’s kind of my tagline. So and [00:36:40] that wasn’t what they wanted. So I thought, well, actually I’m not going to I’m not going to do well here, but your vibe [00:36:45] attracts your tribe. And I just created this niche of natural looking aesthetics, and it grew [00:36:50] and grew and grew.

Payman Langroudi: And now people come to you for it.

Yusra: For that specific.

Payman Langroudi: Specifically. [00:36:55]

Yusra: Yeah. And I think even.

Payman Langroudi: Then come up with you as well. Right then I’m.

Rhona Eskander: Really I’m really looking.

Payman Langroudi: For [00:37:00] big square.

Rhona Eskander: I’m really lucky because just like yesterday, like people, but also [00:37:05] like where I am in Chelsea, people don’t want the fake look. And people come to me [00:37:10] specifically for the natural look. Now, I do have another colleague of mine that works part time in [00:37:15] Essex and part time at the clinic. For me, if there are the few patients that do want [00:37:20] the more fake look, they do go to him and the more natural ones will go to like the bulk of my other [00:37:25] clinicians, but on purpose. They’re like, I like your work because it never looks done up. Yeah. [00:37:30] And I think that, look, people go through trends like five years ago, people wanted like [00:37:35] slightly fake a composite bonding. Now people want more natural. It goes through the different waves [00:37:40] of the different trends. But no one, especially like London, Chelsea People want [00:37:45] a fake look. They really don’t want a fake look. And that’s one of the reasons that they come to [00:37:50] the clinic. And obviously it’s taken me a really long time to find a good ceramist. You’ve met Simon, he’s great. [00:37:55] We’ve had to perfect things, and of course you’ll have people that want to go slightly on the wider scale, but I’ll never [00:38:00] let them walk around with like big white, blocky teeth. I just won’t.

Payman Langroudi: Remember this [00:38:05] issue of consent. Right. And we had, um, the model, your [00:38:10] friend. The model. Um, the guy the male model was no author. [00:38:15] Not your friend. Paul. Paul. Paul. Scholes. Yeah.

Yusra: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Paul Scholes. He was maybe [00:38:20] the 90s, the top male model in the world.

Rhona Eskander: Okay. And he came on the podcast.

Payman Langroudi: He was [00:38:25] huge. And he was saying. He was saying that he went to a cosmetic surgeon.

Rhona Eskander: He had depression, and he showed [00:38:30] the surgeon a photograph. And he said when he was like 20 at his peak of like modelling, he said, make me look like this. [00:38:35]

Yusra: And then and.

Payman Langroudi: The surgeon said no. Yeah. And he said and he said later on he was so, so grateful. [00:38:40] Grateful. Yeah. Because he recognised exactly ethics.

Yusra: But but [00:38:45] but that’s what. But what if, what if. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What if. Yeah. The person understands. [00:38:50] The person knows what you’re saying says I want this.

Yusra: This is a really [00:38:55] interesting debate. And ultimately, there’s a couple of things that we need to be as healthcare [00:39:00] professionals, we need to be cognisant of, and that is a sphere of influence our patients are exposed to. [00:39:05] As Rona said, trends come and go, trends shift with time. And [00:39:10] when we are creating permanent change or long lasting change, like veneers, different with composite bonding [00:39:15] and maybe even different with fillers. But when you’re talking about surgical change and cutting [00:39:20] teeth down irreversibly, then there is a real question mark, and we [00:39:25] need to think even longer and deeper about the potential [00:39:30] to do harm to a patient. This is not timeless. So yeah, I hear that. And patients [00:39:35] come to me and they say, I know, but I hear you. I respect your know, [00:39:40] but I want it anyway. And I say I’m the wrong shop for you then because I my work [00:39:45] ethic and my professional integrity means that I need to have not just competence, [00:39:50] not just confidence, but the courage to say no when it’s not right for you. [00:39:55] And if you if that is not in alignment with you, that’s okay. Finds another practitioner. [00:40:00] That’s how I approach it. What’s your thoughts? Well, you know.

Payman Langroudi: I just [00:40:05] think that, you know, that the daughter test.

Yusra: Yeah, I know the daughter test. Would you do it to your daughter?

Payman Langroudi: Do you do it to your daughter? Yeah. [00:40:10] My view on that is it’s your daughter’s choice. Yeah. It’s not your choice. Yeah, [00:40:15] yeah.

Yusra: I agree with you.

Payman Langroudi: As the professional. Yeah. It’s [00:40:20] not your position to judge whether or not it’s the right thing to do. If you’ve done the right bit on [00:40:25] consent. Now, I agree there’s a grey area. Yeah. The person might say I understand and doesn’t. [00:40:30] Yeah, yeah. Or the person may have some psychological issue and [00:40:35] um, pretend to understand. And, you know, there’s all those things that you have to think about. Yeah. But this [00:40:40] question of us as medics deciding because, you know, at the end of the day.

Yusra: Patient [00:40:45] choice.

Payman Langroudi: Your view on what’s acceptable and isn’t is changing every day. Absolutely.

Yusra: Like, [00:40:50] you know.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, people people want whiter than B1 veneers. Yes. [00:40:55] It’s very common now when When I when I was cutting veneers I used to tell them no, don’t even go to B1, [00:41:00] you just get A1. Yeah, because the culture wasn’t to have the white teeth back [00:41:05] then and these things change.

Yusra: So you’re right. You’re absolutely right. Things change. And I guess it’s an arbitrary [00:41:10] line that we draw, because this conversation debate comes up a lot in facial aesthetics, [00:41:15] because trends are changing and trends are changing quickly. And right now there’s a new trend called beauty fandom. [00:41:20] Have you heard of this? What beauty fandom? Natalya’s. So beauty fandom is a [00:41:25] concept of, um, where there are people like in stars, Lords of the rings [00:41:30] where they’ve got like these, um, pixie ears and patients are coming in and saying, can you [00:41:35] give me pixie ears? What? Yeah. And so they want to look like it’s [00:41:40] they want to look like a role model or this is a thing. It’s actually a thing now.

Rhona Eskander: So they want [00:41:45] to like fantasy characters, basically fantasy characters.

Yusra: So this is this is called beauty fandom. It’s something [00:41:50] that has been recognised by Galderma and Innotrans reports and is now a question [00:41:55] about, okay, so is this doing harm to the patient or are we accepting [00:42:00] that role models are shifting over time, and our duty is to give the patient what they want? And [00:42:05] then I consider, well, what about Michael Jackson and Donatella Versace and other people who maybe went too far? [00:42:10] Whose responsibility is it to say, I’m not going to do that to you? I don’t [00:42:15] know, I the answer is I actually don’t know.

Rhona Eskander: I think it’s but I.

Yusra: Know where I stand [00:42:20] in it. And I think it’s kind to be clear. So when [00:42:25] I do a consultation with a patient, I call it a same page meeting. And I start off by telling them what [00:42:30] my goals are, what my views are, what my ethos is. And I say, this is the same page meeting so [00:42:35] we can decide if we’re in alignment and if I’m the right practitioner for you. So if I’m not the right [00:42:40] practitioner for them, it’s kind to be clear and allow them to find [00:42:45] someone who is in alignment and who’s better suited to give them the desired outcome.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a nice way of looking at it.

Yusra: Yeah, [00:42:50] I.

Rhona Eskander: Think that’s a really great way of looking at it. And it is all about that alignment. It was interesting because [00:42:55] I love going to my retreats and I call myself like a retreat junkie, and I love spending time [00:43:00] with people that do a lot of work on themselves. And I’d met these practitioners. Some of them had [00:43:05] actually given up medicine to become more holistic practitioners, actually. And I was like, I want [00:43:10] to bring you to the clinic because I actually want you to be able to give an assessment to my patients, [00:43:15] because I actually feel I don’t get enough of a psychological assessment of my patient when my patients [00:43:20] come in for a consultation. Granted, they’re an hour. We usually end up going over the clinical staff. Sure, [00:43:25] we talk about what they do, maybe their relationship status. And over time I build that rapport even more. But I think [00:43:30] from the outset, it’d be really interesting to see someone’s insights to their psyche and understand [00:43:35] a little bit about their motivation for being there. And as you said, for dentistry, [00:43:40] sometimes there’s obvious red flags, sometimes there’s not. I think red flags are always a sign [00:43:45] of something unresolved within the human being.

Rhona Eskander: It makes it incredibly stressful for us as well because unfortunately, [00:43:50] as health care professionals, we’re not equipped, nor do we have the protection from anybody [00:43:55] within our governing body or our realm or whatever it be that helps us navigate [00:44:00] these issues. And I think, you know, red flag patients or patients that are disgruntled [00:44:05] are often treated with adversity and hate because, number one, they can make our lives more [00:44:10] difficult. But number two, I think that they’re not really understood in some way. [00:44:15] And then you have people that are also act as enablers. You have those, you know, Dental [00:44:20] law partnerships. You have the enablers. But imagine if there was a real understanding [00:44:25] of the psychology of those patients, because, as Payman said, some patients project that [00:44:30] they want their happiness. You might not see it from the beginning. Super nice. You give them what they want, they look amazing, but [00:44:35] they’re still unhappy because their life hasn’t changed. You’re not responsible for changing their life, you know? [00:44:40] And I think it would be really interesting if we integrated that more, which again is the psychology psychotherapy [00:44:45] side within what we do.

Yusra: So can I tell you I did a huge research study on this [00:44:50] particular topic. Yeah. On the psychological motivation for patients seeking aesthetic treatments and outcomes. [00:44:55] And off the back of that I actually employed a psychologist in my clinic for five years [00:45:00] and I just want to do it.

Rhona Eskander: I really want.

Yusra: To do it. It has been massively helpful. And [00:45:05] then you need to bring Hassan on this podcast because him and one of the psychologists, Doctor Lindsay Hanson, created [00:45:10] a tool that practitioners in aesthetics now use. So I’m sure it can be used in dentistry, [00:45:15] which is a tool that, um, assesses the framework seven domains of [00:45:20] the patient’s life their appearance, anxiety, the motivation for seeking treatment, [00:45:25] and identifies red flags, so to speak, and concerns [00:45:30] and helps to differentiate between appearance anxiety, which is legitimate, and body dysmorphia, [00:45:35] which is also legitimate but may need psychiatric intervention and then has a pathway for which [00:45:40] you treat them and refer them. So this has been instrumental actually in discussed a lot in the aesthetic field. [00:45:45] And I think there is something, you know, now that you’re saying it, and it made me realise [00:45:50] this is the same problem and concern. And in dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: You’re really strong [00:45:55] on EQ. Yeah. Oh I’m understanding. Yeah, the person’s motivation. But if you’re [00:46:00] not strong on EQ yeah. Be great to have a tool.

Rhona Eskander: Oh I’m sorry. And yeah, the thing is I’m so [00:46:05] sensitive to energy, but also because I’m an empath initially I want to help fix people and [00:46:10] I’m like, oh no, I don’t want to like, love you and understand you. And then I have been taken advantage of, you know, in the past [00:46:15] because of that. Also, that is why.

Yusra: I employed a psychologist, because I felt that my job [00:46:20] role became part aesthetic practitioner, part psychotherapist. Yeah. And I don’t have [00:46:25] the tools to be understand that.

Rhona Eskander: Exactly. A question for you. This is such a random one. Do [00:46:30] you find and I don’t like making generalisations. I don’t like making assumptions. Do you find [00:46:35] the London clientele different to the Liverpool clientele in terms of what their psyche is about?

Yusra: Yes, [00:46:40] in terms of demands and expectations. I feel like generally, [00:46:45] and this is a generalisation and may be unfair, but just my experience is Liverpool [00:46:50] patients, generally speaking, are maybe have [00:46:55] more realistic expectations actually. And they’ve seen really [00:47:00] bad work that is really obvious. So they really appreciate good work. And I think in London [00:47:05] people are.

Rhona Eskander: A bit spoilt for.

Yusra: Choice. Yeah. Yeah that’s reality. Yeah it is.

Payman Langroudi: Reality. People bring [00:47:10] you like a picture of, you know, Julia Roberts and say made me look like that.

Yusra: Or they used to this, this [00:47:15] is the thing. Um, this is the thing that I used to experience, but, you know, not so much anymore. [00:47:20] And I think the reason why is because there has been a real shift in the aesthetic industry where patients are not accessing [00:47:25] treatments for vanity alone, but as part of their self-care and self rejuvenation and parts [00:47:30] of wellness. So they don’t really necessarily want to look like a role model. Yes, there’s a beauty fandom trend, [00:47:35] but generally speaking, speaking people don’t want to look like clones of each other. They just want to look [00:47:40] like the best version of themselves. But the trends are changing.

Payman Langroudi: Itself is mature.

Yusra: Markets itself is changing, [00:47:45] and even the shifts. And again, this is why I said we need to be cognisant of our patient sphere of influence. [00:47:50] Because if you look at lip fillers, lip fillers got screwed massively. When [00:47:55] Kylie Jenner spoke about having lip fillers, when Huda Beauty dissolved her lips [00:48:00] and Molly Mae Hughes dissolved her lips. Guess what happened? The opposite happened. It was a movement towards minimalism [00:48:05] wearing less makeup, being more real, dissolving fillers. And that’s the trend that we started to see in clinic [00:48:10] when patients were coming in seeking, dissolving and looking more like themselves. And I think that’s the [00:48:15] upward trend that I’m seeing now. Patient less is more. Patients don’t want massive change [00:48:20] or they want it done slowly over time.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. Even in Liverpool. [00:48:25]

Yusra: Even in Liverpool, I mean, again, I have a skewed maybe I have a skewed [00:48:30] insight because those are the patients that are seeking me. So I can only speak about my experience, and then I’m [00:48:35] not getting the patients who are asking me to do something that is not in align with me, because I’m quite vocal on social [00:48:40] media. People know your vibe attracts your tribe. You know, if I if I kind of put [00:48:45] out there that I do anything and everything, maybe it’s different. You know, there are practitioners, there [00:48:50] are dentists, not in the UK, but in actually in Africa, where they chisel people, [00:48:55] women’s teeth into little sharp pegs. Fangs, actually, because that’s what’s [00:49:00] deemed socially attractive. Now, us in the West look at them and go, oh, look, what are they doing this backwards? [00:49:05] But so is that harm or are they just doing what that patient wants that will enable [00:49:10] them to prosper psychosocially within their culture? And have you seen that trend of people draw. [00:49:15]

Rhona Eskander: Using a black marker now to put a, um, in the middle of their two front teeth, because now gaps are in fashion? [00:49:20]

Yusra: No, I’m not.

Rhona Eskander: Saying that this is a massive TikTok trend. They’re getting a felt tip pen drawing the middle. [00:49:25] So it looks like.

Payman Langroudi: That one in Japan where they’re bringing on Malocclusions because [00:49:30] it’s, uh.

Yusra: Because crowding is.

Payman Langroudi: Look younger.

Yusra: Well, you know, so where do we [00:49:35] draw the line in China? You know, what they do in China? In certain areas of China, they crush women’s feet because [00:49:40] having yeah, I know this is deemed socially attractive. You know, you can keep going and going in certain areas in Africa [00:49:45] they put rings around women’s necks to elongate them because that seems attractive. So where do we draw this arbitrary line? [00:49:50] It’s going to change according to culture, social construct, social norms.

Rhona Eskander: I’m going to say it’s interesting because [00:49:55] obviously you grew up within like Middle Eastern culture. Like me, I hated Payman noses already. I [00:50:00] hated, hated my body growing up because I was told the beauty standard was, you shouldn’t have hips, [00:50:05] you shouldn’t have curves. Really? Yeah. And I grew up because I grew up also like in a [00:50:10] massively like Western environment. And when I went to university it got really bad. That was the Kate Moss [00:50:15] era. Yeah. And you know, I got scouted for modelling and when I did, all the guys [00:50:20] were like, well, you need to lose weight, you need to lose this da da da. But you’re not high fashion. You’re not Kate Moss, you know, and [00:50:25] it was awful. And my mum unfortunately, bless her I love her and she didn’t know any better also [00:50:30] grew up with that narrative. She grew up in Lebanon, Western culture, Having a straight body was deemed [00:50:35] to be what was beautiful. So for me, I spent my whole life hiding my hips, hiding my legs, hiding [00:50:40] like the lower part of my body. And then Kim K came in fashion. And guess what? Everyone [00:50:45] wants it. Everyone wants it, you know? But it’s the the the effect that it had of people telling [00:50:50] me basically that I wasn’t beautiful, beautiful enough, never left me. So even though she made it [00:50:55] fashionable, I still didn’t learn to love it. You know, it’s just something that I’ve learned to live with. Sadly, as much [00:51:00] as I wanted to say.

Yusra: Confidence crisis caused by sphere of influence.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, and that’s the thing. [00:51:05] Because your.

Payman Langroudi: Eyebrows too.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. I got bullied for my eyebrows. Luckily, I fell in love [00:51:10] with my eyebrows because I’m like. I mean, people used to say, and I remember I came back because again, it was Spice Girls era. [00:51:15] I went into school one day and my mum was mortified because I pretty much shaved them [00:51:20] off and pencilled them on because they’d made fun of me for having big, thick, bushy eyebrows at school [00:51:25] and, you know, all the girls. And now I’m like, I love them. And if anyone says to me, [00:51:30] you know, social media is a funny place because someone posted underneath my TikTok the other day, [00:51:35] I hope you can afford to get your ears pinned back now. And I was like, I love my big ears. Like that’s it. Like, I [00:51:40] love my big ears. Unbelievable. And you know it. But it’s funny because [00:51:45] things change all the time. Thin eyebrows were in in the 90s. Everyone wants them thick now, [00:51:50] as you said, it always changes. So I think we’ve got to be mindful of those trends. Yes. Next [00:51:55] question I want to ask you is about motherhood. Sure. So talk [00:52:00] to us a little bit about you already described that, you know, when you first fell pregnant. Talk [00:52:05] to us how motherhood has changed your life and how you have navigated being a mother as well [00:52:10] as a businesswoman and entrepreneur.

Yusra: Wow. Great question. Um, so I didn’t [00:52:15] plan my first child. I when I had my. How old were you? Um, [00:52:20] I must have been 27. Okay. Something like that. 27. 28 [00:52:25] and what had happened was we were living in South Woodford in London. My husband was a registrar [00:52:30] in psychiatry. I was doing maths facts. We were both hospital jobs making rubbish money, [00:52:35] barely making ends meet, living month to month, and then our landlord put [00:52:40] the rent up and we couldn’t afford that. So we moved out and moved into my [00:52:45] old bedroom in my parents home, thinking, okay, we’ll stay here for six months, save up and move [00:52:50] out. And then I fell pregnant and it was, you know, at the time I thought it was a catastrophe because [00:52:55] I thought, oh my God, my career is just taking off. I’m juggling so much. I started doing fixed ortho. [00:53:00] I felt like I was not ready to be a parent yet. And [00:53:05] actually what I realised is you’re never really ready. And so anyway, I had the baby [00:53:10] and what is probably the best thing that ever happened to me, he’s given me perspective. [00:53:15] He’s my source of comfort. I you know, it’s amazing being [00:53:20] a parent. It’s been challenging because the reality is, no [00:53:25] matter what anyone tells you, your life does change because it’s no longer just about you anymore. You’ve got responsibility [00:53:30] to be a life coach to this mini human being who’s relying on [00:53:35] you to lead. So I had to learn a lot, and there were sacrifices [00:53:40] that were made, and one of them was moving to Liverpool, for example.

Payman Langroudi: How old is he? [00:53:45]

Yusra: He’s now ten. He just turned ten.

Payman Langroudi: And you have another one as well?

Yusra: I have three.

Rhona Eskander: Oh, why did I [00:53:50] say two? For some reason I hold it.

Yusra: So I have a ten year old, a seven year old and a [00:53:55] 20 month old.

Payman Langroudi: My goodness. Busy?

Yusra: Yeah, busy. But, [00:54:00] you know, it’s teamwork. I wouldn’t be where I am today without my husband. I [00:54:05] think you, you know, there every every family unit works [00:54:10] in its own way. And what works in one family won’t necessarily work in the other. We both work, [00:54:15] but we both share the workload at home. You know, he is a child and adolescent psychiatrist. He’s very [00:54:20] hands on with the children. He’s amazing at EQ and emotional intelligence and managing their anxieties [00:54:25] and concerns everything. So it’s been a [00:54:30] challenge because both jobs are 24 over seven. You [00:54:35] don’t get to clock in and clock out of being a parent if your child is sick. You are on call [00:54:40] all the time, and if your patient is sick, you’re on call. So that’s I think is the challenge. [00:54:45] There is no manual for running a business. I’ve made mistakes running my business and hiring [00:54:50] and trying to procure the right team. That’s a whole podcast in itself. I [00:54:55] now have a new rule of hire and fire fast Firefox, and there’s no manual for parenting, [00:55:00] but I think self-development has been the only way. Personal [00:55:05] development has been, the only way that I have been able to navigate both, and having a good support system [00:55:10] and having a real clear why, why am I doing what I’m doing and a vision. [00:55:15] So if I didn’t have all of those things in place, I don’t think I could do both. But I’m very [00:55:20] passionate about being a present mum, and I’m very passionate about my role as a leader [00:55:25] and educator, a businesswoman, a clinician looking after my patients. I’m [00:55:30] really passionate about both. And the reality is, if you want to do both very well, [00:55:35] you may need to do a little bit less of each.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I know, I love that. I think that’s what I’ve got [00:55:40] fear and anxiety around having children for, like losing my identity. [00:55:45]

Payman Langroudi: Um, What gives what what what how how do you pull it off? What if something gives? [00:55:50] What gives?

Yusra: First of all, there’s always something that gives. So great question because the reality [00:55:55] is there is an opportunity cost, okay. And your priorities are going [00:56:00] to shift. I think for me what gives us social time with friends family, friends [00:56:05] with friends, and I guess with families to a certain extent, because, you know, I’m, I’m [00:56:10] in Liverpool, where my family are still in London. Sleep. Sleep for sure. [00:56:15] Yeah, right. Like that’s a, that’s a, that’s a no brainer. That’s a for sure. But you know Rona you don’t lose your [00:56:20] identity when you become a parent. You just you just take on a new identity. You just it’s [00:56:25] like wearing you already wear multiple hats. You’re a host of a podcast. You’re a leader and educator in [00:56:30] your field. You’re a social media influencer. You’re a fashionista. You’re a your clinician, your a boss. [00:56:35] Your colleague is just wearing a new hat. And it’s a skill set that you acquire with time. And [00:56:40] there’s no there is no manual. There’s no right or wrong. You just learn to do [00:56:45] your best. And I think if you keep showing up as your best self with the right attitude and [00:56:50] caring, you have EQ. Having EQ is probably the most important thing as a parent, [00:56:55] and the things that I want to instil in my children are the three C’s confidence, [00:57:00] competence and courage. Competence is probably the [00:57:05] least in priority. I don’t need my children to be lawyers and doctors and so on, but I need [00:57:10] them to be confident that they know that there is nothing that they can’t do, [00:57:15] and courage to be firm in their value set, no matter where they are in life. [00:57:20]

Rhona Eskander: I really, really love that. And thank you for speaking about that with such eloquence. I [00:57:25] remember that I heard you on another podcast also talking about, um, women that had [00:57:30] delayed having children and had struggled. It’s something I feel very passionate about for [00:57:35] a number of reasons, and I think this invites the opportunity to kind of see both sides. [00:57:40] Essentially. My father’s a gynaecologist, so I was brought up having [00:57:45] being told that if I did not meet someone before I was 30, [00:57:50] it was going to be very difficult to meet someone and have a family. He said it was love because [00:57:55] my father has always been a compassionate, kind and credible human being. But it was because he wanted [00:58:00] to make sure that I had somebody in my life that was going to give me the things that I have in my family. Yeah, I [00:58:05] was very focussed on studies, not boys or dating when I throughout [00:58:10] school got to university and then I was like, oh, I’ll find a husband. And for me, I had the Disney [00:58:15] image in my head because someone finds you, they see you in a room, they pursue you, they [00:58:20] you get, you know, you get proposed to and it’s done. And obviously the reality was very different. I went to university [00:58:25] in Leeds. I was suddenly thrown into this extremely white Caucasian environment that [00:58:30] I had never been in.

Rhona Eskander: I actually was the brown girl that was had no experience. [00:58:35] And people knew that, you know, had never had a proper boyfriend, hadn’t done, you know, any of the things [00:58:40] that they had been used to or accustomed to, you know, growing up in the environments that they had. And it was a challenging [00:58:45] time, took me a long time to meet someone I did. I was with that person for six years, and [00:58:50] there was always this promise that he was going to marry me, and I thought that that was basically my life. I [00:58:55] turned 27 and he was a good guy, good family, etc. etc. and he [00:59:00] had decided that it wasn’t. That’s not what he wanted to do. And the relationship [00:59:05] broke down and I went into a bit of a panic mode and I was like, right, I need to find a husband in three years. [00:59:10] I’ve got three years now to find my husband, because the thing that I didn’t want to do [00:59:15] was just have a baby with someone, or marry someone for the sake of it. That was like the important [00:59:20] thing for me. I wanted to make sure I married someone with values, and that could bring up [00:59:25] a child in the way that I knew a child should be brought up.

Rhona Eskander: So as I [00:59:30] tried to pressure myself, I ended up dating some of the wrong men and [00:59:35] I sadly, when I turned 30. This is really sad. I don’t think I’ve ever shared this with you. [00:59:40] I was like, I’d rather be dead than than alive and single at 30 and be [00:59:45] known as that girl. And I was suicidal, like, honestly. Like, yeah. So [00:59:50] I was so broken and I had just come out of a really toxic, [00:59:55] narcissistic relationship, and I was too embarrassed to tell my parents because I thought, I’m going to be single at 30. What’s [01:00:00] everyone going to think? I’m going to be single at 30? Luckily, I met my incredible, [01:00:05] healthy, wonderful partner. Now I was 32 at the time, and I think I kind of like [01:00:10] given up on the idea. I was just like, what’s not going to happen? So how old are you now? 37. Okay. Yeah. [01:00:15] And then my father turned around to me and he said, you need to freeze your eggs. [01:00:20] I’m telling you with love. He has a clinic. I’m in a privileged position. I know not [01:00:25] everybody is in a privileged position, but I was because I only had to pay the lab fees, which was minor, as [01:00:30] you know. And he said, just do it because it’s a safety insurance.

Rhona Eskander: It’s a policy [01:00:35] like I’m sure your dad is. He’s factual. Yeah. Exa like this in your 20s. Exa like this in your 30s. [01:00:40] Get it done. Yeah. I had a very I mean the the process thereafter was very difficult [01:00:45] on my body, but the, the success was really high. I got 19 healthy eggs in one go, which [01:00:50] a lot of people when you 32. So one round 19 eggs. Every single egg was [01:00:55] healthy there in the freezer okay. So so that for me took [01:01:00] a little bit of like, stress. And obviously I built my relationship with my partner, we’re [01:01:05] now engaged, etc., etc. so I have a lot of compassion [01:01:10] for women that cannot find the right person, you know, at that [01:01:15] at the time of their life when they’re expected to. But I also recognise there are women that [01:01:20] put it off because of career, for example into their 40s and their chances become a lot lower. [01:01:25] I’m not saying it’s impossible, I know it’s possible, but chances become lower. Chances of miscarriages increase, [01:01:30] chances of, um, children being born with defects. All that stuff increases. But I reckon [01:01:35] now the environment that we live in makes it really difficult to provide, [01:01:40] to provide the environment where people feel safe enough to start a family.

Yusra: I [01:01:45] agree with you entirely. And I think, look, there’s no right. First and foremost, you don’t start [01:01:50] and stop when you get married. Yeah, and you don’t start and stop [01:01:55] when you become a mother. Yeah, this is all fear mongering and there is no substance to it [01:02:00] really. If you want to do both, you can do both with regards to when you find a partner [01:02:05] that like that happens in different times for different people. And [01:02:10] I have a lot of compassion for people who are struggling, you know, and I have a lot of patients [01:02:15] as well who have made the conscious decision to delay having children [01:02:20] because of their career and now.

Rhona Eskander: Because they feel they didn’t have enough money to support a baby or because they [01:02:25] want to do the right.

Yusra: Time. I, you know, I’m building my career and building my name. I can’t [01:02:30] take time off. Who’s going to look after my, my, my role? What’s going to happen? There’s a lot of fear [01:02:35] around that. I get it because I felt like that as well. If I didn’t fall pregnant by mistake, I would still [01:02:40] be. Yeah, be still thinking it’s not the right time. The reality is it’s never the right [01:02:45] time. Okay, I know that now because of what I went through, there is never [01:02:50] a right time. And I think what’s really important to understand [01:02:55] is knowledge is power. And if women understood like you, you’ve got privilege that your [01:03:00] father was in that field and could educate you and explain to you. Women understood that the reality physiologically, [01:03:05] biologically, the reality this is fact not feeling is that as we [01:03:10] age women, not men, our ability to procreate reduces. Again, this is biologically [01:03:15] biologically correct. Right. So then you can make an informed decision in your 20s, 30s, [01:03:20] whatever to freeze eggs. But we also need to understand that even when you freeze eggs, it’s not a guarantee. It’s not a guarantee. [01:03:25] So there’s two sides to this. There is. Well, you might not have found the right [01:03:30] partner. That’s life, you know. And it’s okay. You might choose not to become a mother. That’s okay. Because [01:03:35] your identity as a woman doesn’t start and stop with your if you choose to procreate. [01:03:40] So I think there’s so many sides to this, but I think information is power.

Yusra: And I think if more women spoke about [01:03:45] it and understood that as they aged and so many women that I now see who are going through IVF said, [01:03:50] I never knew that if I left it to my 40s, it would be hard to get eggs. They’re going through cycle [01:03:55] after cycle after cycle, getting 1 or 2 eggs. And I think that’s it’s soul destroying for them. [01:04:00] I see them in their darkest times when they are feeling suicidal, [01:04:05] very low. It has an impact on their relationship, their self-worth, their image, their body. Physiologically, [01:04:10] physically, mentally, we cannot diminish that journey. So if they knew, then perhaps [01:04:15] they can make a more informed decision if they had a partner, let’s say. But this is such a personal [01:04:20] journey for each person that you’ve got to give grace and compassion and understand. And [01:04:25] also, I think, reassurance that it’s okay. Either [01:04:30] way. I think, you know, I understand your father is saying, listen, you, this is important. [01:04:35] And I’ll tell you another story that I went through when I was 30. I fell pregnant with my second child. Yeah. And [01:04:40] I was told she would be disabled. And when I was pregnant, the doctor at the time said to me, [01:04:45] it’s because you’re old. Those are the words that he used 30, 30. And I was mortified. [01:04:50] I literally like my jaw dropped open and this was in front of my husband. And as he walked out [01:04:55] and, you know, again, he was from the generation five.

Rhona Eskander: It’s a geriatric, geriatric pregnancy. So [01:05:00] I’ve had.

Yusra: A geriatric pregnancy. So which, by the way, I find the term hugely offensive [01:05:05] acceptable. So when I, when I was 30 and they told me she’s going to be born disabled [01:05:10] and then blames me because I was too old and then told me I should have an abortion, and it was [01:05:15] one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to go through. And then when I was 35 and [01:05:20] I was told as a geriatric pregnancy, all of that fear that I had gone through came up again. So [01:05:25] I really I hold a lot of compassion and grace for women going through this, no matter what [01:05:30] parts of the journey or decision they make. It’s a really difficult time. But I think the answer here [01:05:35] is to ensure that we are empowered with information. It’s the same with the menopause. I see a lot of women in the menopause who [01:05:40] don’t know what to expect and feel like when they go through the menopause at the end of their femininity, you know, like [01:05:45] they are no longer relevant. Are you kidding me? These are women who have worked in their fields for years. They are [01:05:50] the epitome of relevance. Yeah, um, but they they don’t know what’s to come. [01:05:55] They just think they’re going to be this hot, sweaty mess. And so part of the research that I did is called the Menopause Skin Report, [01:06:00] was discussing how we need to change the narrative in the industry [01:06:05] that actually you don’t start and stop with the with the menopause as well. You know, all these life [01:06:10] changes that women go through. It’s a pretty hard life. You’ve got it easy, you know.

Rhona Eskander: But [01:06:15] this is the thing. And I think the sad thing is I said, like, I’ve, I get [01:06:20] so upset thinking about women because women take, you know, I think of the Barbie speech. Did you ever see the Barbie speech?

Yusra: Yeah I [01:06:25] did, you’re damned if you do. You’re damned if you don’t.

Rhona Eskander: And basically you don’t. And it’s, [01:06:30] it’s it’s very difficult. Um, I might even read it out, but it’s very difficult being a woman. And I think, [01:06:35] look, we have this debate all the time, of course. And he’s like, it’s not that difficult being a woman now. Like [01:06:40] you’re not living in Iran or Afghanistan and, you know, like these are like.

Payman Langroudi: I always caveat the childbirth [01:06:45] and children. Mother.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: If you if you crop out mothering. [01:06:50] Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So I think you’re right. I think people have to make the right choice. I think we’re lucky now because [01:06:55] actually, when I did egg freezing five years ago, no one knew really what it is. [01:07:00] And now everyone’s talking about it. We had to meet his wife on the podcast. Um, and she actually owns [01:07:05] a company that specialises in egg freezing. And I think it’s great because people are having [01:07:10] and they’re trying to make one of their pillars is they’re trying to make it accessible [01:07:15] to women that can’t even afford the tests, because the tests can be really, really suggest check your AMH, [01:07:20] check all of these hormones, see where you’re at. Because you’re right. I know a woman that had early onset menopause at [01:07:25] 35. So I think, like you said, knowledge is power, but it also does not define you as [01:07:30] a woman. What defines you as a woman is the choices that you make for you. That is it. You know, it’s as simple [01:07:35] as that. I want to move on to something that I think attracted me [01:07:40] to you in the start. And I think also I’ve seen there’s been an increase in your following because [01:07:45] clearly a lot of people have been very empowered by the things that you’ve been saying [01:07:50] online with regards to your humanitarian causes. There is [01:07:55] a lot of political debate that goes on obviously, online. Do you [01:08:00] think and this is again a debate amongst healthcare professionals. Do you think that political [01:08:05] discussions, which I view sometimes as being actually humanitarian discussions, [01:08:10] Discussions should be shown on health care professionals platforms. [01:08:15]

Yusra: I think the GMC and the GDC have issued a statement that [01:08:20] has clearly expressed their opinion on this, which is that as [01:08:25] a healthcare professional, you and I, us have the right [01:08:30] to a political opinion and to express that political opinion in the same way as every [01:08:35] other citizen in the United Kingdom. So that is a universal human right [01:08:40] to express your political views. Now, the way that you do so I think is important. [01:08:45]

Rhona Eskander: The GDC or GMC define the way you should do it or not.

Yusra: No, they didn’t define the way that you should do it. [01:08:50]

Payman Langroudi: You have the right to do that.

Yusra: You have the right express, the right to express, you know, political political [01:08:55] is one thing. And political affiliations or viewpoints may be nuanced and [01:09:00] change according to your proximity, i.e. your again, your [01:09:05] sphere of influence. Right? And the idea and what the GTC have said is that you need [01:09:10] to be mindful that not everyone will share the same opinion, and that’s life. And we all have different opinions. So we have to be able to [01:09:15] communicate respectfully. And as healthcare professionals, we are accustomed [01:09:20] and learn and know how to treat our patients as colourless. It doesn’t matter [01:09:25] what colour they are, it doesn’t matter what faith they are, doesn’t what matter what sexual orientation or gender or [01:09:30] political opinion or affiliation. It makes no difference to our care for them, makes [01:09:35] no difference to my care for my patients or my viewpoint on my colleagues. Make zero [01:09:40] difference to me. And I think what I have been discussing online is [01:09:45] not a political opinion, but a humanitarian one. When we’re talking about universal human [01:09:50] rights, these are universal. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was made [01:09:55] in 1948 after huge, you know, after World War two when there was mass human atrocity. [01:10:00] And the ideology and the reason behind that was that [01:10:05] it would become the Magna Carta of Man so that we would treat all people universally. [01:10:10]

Yusra: And that means that understanding that we’re all born equal with the equal right to life, the equal right [01:10:15] to dignity, the equal right to freedom, the equal right to express your views, the equal right to [01:10:20] living in your property. And that is what I have been expressing unapologetically. [01:10:25] But when you talk about controversy about that, I have had [01:10:30] hate. I have had death threats. I have had threats of violence, threats of rape, threats of sexual [01:10:35] violence against me and my children and my family. And it has definitely been a challenge to navigate. [01:10:40] But I haven’t stopped because I am firm in my belief and my identity [01:10:45] and my role as a human being and as a health care professional, that [01:10:50] I’m here to be in the service of others. And I was brought up with that [01:10:55] mindset. You know, I told you, my parents are both in healthcare, but But beyond that, I [01:11:00] feel a sense of duty to be a voice for the voiceless. And [01:11:05] I stand firm against the physical and mental [01:11:10] mutilation of all people. And I think that it should never be controversial to say, [01:11:15] don’t kill children, lest the killers be offended.

Rhona Eskander: You know, I find that [01:11:20] super interesting. Um, because I find there’s a lot of confusion [01:11:25] around my identity from people online. And I think this also comes down to an [01:11:30] education point of view. I’m Arab, as you know. Um, my father is Coptic Egyptian [01:11:35] and my mother is Catholic. A lot of people assume that Arabs are of [01:11:40] one type of religion, and that I will get abuse because they think that my [01:11:45] behaviour online isn’t in line with their religious beliefs, and that breeds a lot [01:11:50] of hate and division. I’m not as strong as you, so when I get the trolls and when I [01:11:55] get the death threats and the names and, you know, some of them have gone as far as to find my sister and my mother’s [01:12:00] profiles, I shut down. What has shocked me the most, though, is [01:12:05] that when I discover, or when I’ve even had messages from other health care professionals, [01:12:10] and I think regardless of the statement the GDC and GMC have issued, [01:12:15] we have a duty to speak to each other in a certain way. Agree. Let’s [01:12:20] put the political parts to one side. Sometimes the way I see other dentists [01:12:25] or doctors slate each other on forums, on Facebook. To me it’s unacceptable. [01:12:30] It’s like the Daily Mail and the sun having it out with each other. And [01:12:35] when they take it beyond because they think that somebody with a platform, lots of followers and they [01:12:40] think that we can just handle it, if you can’t take the heat, don’t put yourself out there. You know, that’s the thing. I find [01:12:45] that really ridiculous. And I think there is a code of conduct on how we should behave towards each other. [01:12:50] I really do agree.

Yusra: I think there is a code of conduct, and I think as, as professionals, [01:12:55] we should know how to conduct ourselves and communicate with kindness and respect. [01:13:00] So there is the online bullying is unacceptable. Simply, [01:13:05] purely. It starts and stops there. My statement on that there I do not accept it, but what I also don’t [01:13:10] do is give it face. I don’t give it time, I don’t give it air time, I ignore it. But when [01:13:15] there’s threats of violence that is straight to the police, you know, there is the there’s a clear way that [01:13:20] I manage this. And I think here’s the reality. Look, whether you have ten followers or 100 followers or [01:13:25] 10,000 or 100,000 followers, you’re not going to please every single person. You’re [01:13:30] not going to be everyone’s cup of tea. And that’s okay. You can agree to disagree. The beauty of social media [01:13:35] is you can scroll right past so you don’t like it. Shimmy on past. There’s no need to leave negative comments, [01:13:40] but if they do, I give grace there as well. Because I think that negative comment [01:13:45] is coming from a place of weakness or negativity or hurt or pain, and they’re projecting. They [01:13:50] are unable to articulate themselves. So I give that grace and I ignore [01:13:55] I’m not making it acceptable, but I’m not giving it airtime either.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And [01:14:00] that’s the thing, you know. Do you know where the word trolling comes from? No, it’s not a troll like the dolls, because [01:14:05] I thought it was that trolling is a fishing term that when you put the rod and then you like basically [01:14:10] bait what you’re trying to catch. So basically they say that if you talk [01:14:15] or respond to a troll, you are baiting them. So you shouldn’t. Actually ignoring [01:14:20] is the only way that you should deal with it. Absolutely.

Yusra: What you feed grows. Yeah. So give it no airtime. [01:14:25]

Payman Langroudi: What you say is, look, I think we need to separate the political. [01:14:30]

Yusra: And the humanitarian.

Payman Langroudi: Well, political, humanitarian on one side. And then what you said about dentists arguing [01:14:35] arguing about patients on the other side, not talking about patients. No, no, no, it’s about [01:14:40] a case, isn’t it?

Rhona Eskander: No, no, no, you’ve got this wrong. You’ve got this wrong. Look, I don’t want to get into [01:14:45] this debate in particular because of the reasons behind it. But for example, [01:14:50] if a dentist or doctor is struck off, we don’t really know the ins and outs of a case. [01:14:55] Right. And I’m not saying that that person is definitely wrong, but the way they will tear [01:15:00] apart the human being, whether they know them by reputation, I’m like, this person could kill themselves. [01:15:05] I’ve had doctors and dentists being struck off and been in the firing. In fact, [01:15:10] I know a doctor that had been in trouble who’s a huge humanitarian [01:15:15] with not because of the humanitarian cause had been in trouble in the UK for, you know, whatever reason. [01:15:20] But I’m saying, like they totally dehumanised them on these forums. It’s [01:15:25] not fair. And God forbid something happens to you because we’ve now been in that position. [01:15:30] We’ve not been in the room with those patients or done this. And yes, sometimes you can argue, but there was a clear breach, but you [01:15:35] never know until you’re in that person’s shoes. And I find that.

Payman Langroudi: Even if there was, I think your point is right that it [01:15:40] doesn’t need to be nasty. But on the question of the humanitarian, um, [01:15:45] you know, what I really struggled with is, in this day and age, we all have a voice, right? [01:15:50] We can all post. Yeah. And so, in the moment of children [01:15:55] dying, for instance, it’s incumbent on us to post. I agree with you. [01:16:00] Yeah, because we all have a voice. I mean, 15 years ago, we didn’t have a voice. [01:16:05] Only only the people on TV had a voice. So I found it difficult, [01:16:10] though I found it difficult too.

Yusra: To because of fear. Right? Because of fear, because of silencing and because of potential [01:16:15] misinterpretation.

[TRANSITION]: And I don’t want to I.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t want to hurt friends. Friends [01:16:20] and family.

[TRANSITION]: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: But a friend.

Yusra: People, this is so. This is what I mean. We [01:16:25] have reached a stage that is really dangerous, where we are questioning ourselves [01:16:30] whether we can say.

Rhona Eskander: Whether kill a.

Yusra: Child, kill a child, lest it offend someone. All [01:16:35] children are equal. Article one of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is all [01:16:40] people are born equal. Equal rights to freedom and dignity. Equal [01:16:45] rights to not be detained. Equal rights to not suffer from violence of any [01:16:50] sort. These are. These are universal declaration of human rights that must be applied universally. [01:16:55] That means that it’s not applied to one sect of people, but not another. [01:17:00] And when there is a clear humanitarian issue, you know, what’s going on at [01:17:05] the moment is an undebatable humanitarian crisis. Oxfam has called what is going on at the moment is the worst [01:17:10] humanitarian crisis in its existence. We it’s undebatable that children are dying [01:17:15] in their masses, and they’re not dying from just disease. They’re being killed by bombs [01:17:20] that are being funded by the USA and the UK and Germany. So we we [01:17:25] have a voice and I and I would take it even further to say our [01:17:30] health care colleagues who are out there, 200 colleagues of ours, yes, [01:17:35] have been kidnapped, detained, tortured, threats of sexual violence. [01:17:40] I mean, this is well documented. And people are saying to me, [01:17:45] it’s fake, not just this fake. I’m too afraid to speak up in case I lose my job. [01:17:50] I’m too afraid to speak up in case someone comes after me.

Yusra: And I get that. I understand that because [01:17:55] I have had a phone call from somebody saying, stop speaking about this cause because there’s someone [01:18:00] on the on a faculty that you’re with that wants us to remove you from faculty. [01:18:05] What? Yeah. And I and I sat there and I reflected, [01:18:10] and I thought, no. Yes, absolutely. And actually, you [01:18:15] know, I don’t know how much I want to talk about this on the podcast, but I was strong and I said I [01:18:20] was I was firm in my faith. And this is what I mean by I’m now a mother of three. I [01:18:25] have I’ve got privilege that I own my own clinic, that I don’t need that faculty position. [01:18:30] I am okay in being in a position of discomfort and have the [01:18:35] courage to say, actually, when we are talking about children, I hear the cries of all children [01:18:40] equally. Why don’t you that this is shocking to me, and I cannot [01:18:45] fathom how speaking up for equality of all human beings [01:18:50] is politicised. This is not a political matter. This is humanity. And as [01:18:55] health care professionals in particular, where we are trained to be humanitarians, [01:19:00] where we go into healthcare because we care for others. This is incumbent upon us [01:19:05] to speak up for our profession, for our colleagues, for children, for innocent civilians who are [01:19:10] trapped.

Yusra: And if you look back 76 years ago, World War two, [01:19:15] prior to that, when human beings were being killed in their masses, people were silent, turned [01:19:20] another cheek and stayed quiet because they had privilege. It wasn’t them being killed, and they [01:19:25] were afraid to speak up. And also it was legal. So just because something is legal doesn’t mean it’s [01:19:30] right. And if it isn’t for the courage of people to stand up against human oppression, there would be no change. [01:19:35] And let me just quantify that. Slavery continued in the Western [01:19:40] world until the late 1800s. So we’re talking about 150 years ago, when there was [01:19:45] a civil war between the North and South America. And Abraham Lincoln, who [01:19:50] stood up for the liberation of slaves, was called an abolitionist. And he was bullied, [01:19:55] and he was reprimanded for standing up and wanting liberty of slaves. Women had to fight [01:20:00] for rights to vote in the United Kingdom until 100 years ago. [01:20:05] In fact, in Switzerland, until 1994, women didn’t have equal rights to work. [01:20:10] So you sometimes have to take courage to stand up for what’s right. And I don’t [01:20:15] think that just because, you know, you know.

Rhona Eskander: You’re going to offend.

Yusra: Someone, we’re going to offend someone. [01:20:20] We should be quiet. And I’m going to go further and say, when you are speaking up [01:20:25] for the rights of an oppressed people, what that doesn’t translate into is denying the rights of [01:20:30] other people. So when women were saying, hey, we want equal rights, that doesn’t mean they were saying men [01:20:35] don’t get equal rights as well. It’s not a threat to men. Hold on. Please let me quantify [01:20:40] this. When when people were standing up and saying black people need equal rights, they weren’t [01:20:45] saying white. They weren’t saying white people don’t need rights. So when we’re saying give equal rights to a set [01:20:50] of people who are oppressed and don’t have equal rights of freedom and movement and dignity and, and, [01:20:55] and and just equality, that doesn’t mean denying the rights of other people to [01:21:00] have rights. Yeah, it’s really.

Rhona Eskander: Important point because I think and we’re very beautifully said, I think [01:21:05] that that’s the problem and the amount of gaslighting that goes on. Yeah. What people don’t [01:21:10] know is, is that my grandfather is Palestinian as well. Um, and again, Christian Palestinian [01:21:15] again, people assume it’s a certain sector. You know, he’s very affected. Had to flee back in 19, [01:21:20] whatever it was. Yeah. Um, and I.

Yusra: Mean, Jesus was born in Bethlehem, which is in Palestine. Yes. [01:21:25] So Christianity, that’s the birthplace of Christianity and.

Rhona Eskander: And the abuse that I’ve had from [01:21:30] Dental colleagues, unfortunately, um, telling me that I should be speaking out in the [01:21:35] way that they want me to speak out is crazy. And then on the other side of things, [01:21:40] when I am posting about things like you said, Warchild, Unicef, the [01:21:45] refugee camps that I work in every year, They’re like, you are [01:21:50] a terrorist sympathiser. Unbelievable. And I just don’t understand it because I don’t understand. [01:21:55] Like you said, why aren’t you nuanced? Two truths can be true [01:22:00] at the same time. You can advocate for the life of children, and you can also have [01:22:05] empathy that some people may be suffering right now from anti-Semitism. Let’s just say these [01:22:10] two truths can be true at the same time. But saying that I want children to live is not being [01:22:15] anti-Semitic. Does that make sense? Once one doesn’t translate into another. And that’s such an important point, [01:22:20] because I feel that the reason I understand the reason.

Payman Langroudi: Is there’s almost like an empathy cup. If [01:22:25] your empathy cup is full, you just can’t empathise anymore. Yeah, [01:22:30] it’s a trauma.

Yusra: I think Payman it partly that, sure. And there’s a trauma response here [01:22:35] as well. But there’s also a blind spot and there’s dehumanisation [01:22:40] and we can’t diminish or dismiss that because this and this is how all human atrocities [01:22:45] happen is dehumanisation of the other. When you see them as less than, they’re less human. [01:22:50] They are dogs, they’re son of dogs, they’re agents of evil, they’re rats. Then actually killing them is not [01:22:55] so bad, right? And I would stand firm to say, and if anybody [01:23:00] trolls you and says, actually, why are you standing up for children? These are not combatants. I [01:23:05] don’t care where that child is from. That child can be from any side of this man made war. No children [01:23:10] should be should be killed. Period. But where there is a catastrophe, a human catastrophe for [01:23:15] 15,000 children have been killed. How is this a matter of debate? To stand up for [01:23:20] the rights of these children? It isn’t. And if we accept that it is, [01:23:25] then we’re deflecting and we’ve accepted dehumanisation. And really, I think that is a dangerous place [01:23:30] to go because that is a degradation of the civilised world.

Rhona Eskander: 100%. But also, like [01:23:35] you said, you’re from Iraq. And I do think that there was also this being shown in the Iraq war. The difference was, is [01:23:40] that social media wasn’t a presence in our life and the way that it is today. So this [01:23:45] sort of dehumanisation was going on. And in places like Syria and in lots of other parts of the world. [01:23:50] But I think that what we can all agree on is that our code of conduct towards each other with regards to this conversations [01:23:55] needs to change. You know, and we cannot be there threatening the positions [01:24:00] of health care professionals as a matter of trying to assert [01:24:05] our own projections and our own beliefs. I think that’s where we enter into a really, um, endangered [01:24:10] place. The other thing that I wanted to talk to you about as well is [01:24:15] the kind of language I, I want to have an open [01:24:20] conversation, as I said. So in the Middle East, it was an interesting time for my parents because [01:24:25] my father, as a Copt, was almost persecuted, like Egypt [01:24:30] was really difficult to place to live under the new government for Coptic people.

Rhona Eskander: And [01:24:35] so his whole family went to America and he came here. What I recognised [01:24:40] through my own education and understanding is that there is a real degree [01:24:45] of Islamophobia. Now I’m going to use this word because I was also educated by your sister. [01:24:50] And Islamophobia is a word that was created by the [01:24:55] media and press. And in a way, it instils a view [01:25:00] on people that the word phobia comes with that religion. [01:25:05] And what she said is that you don’t use the word phobia for other religions. So we’re not Christian [01:25:10] phobia, Jew phobia, hinduphobia, etc.. And I [01:25:15] was like, wow, I’ve never really thought about that. And I didn’t even know if the word itself was offensive. [01:25:20] But from your experience, what do you think has been going [01:25:25] on from somebody that has been, you know, a muslim her whole life and how, you know, you touched [01:25:30] a little bit on the Iraq War and how that affected you and what people thought. But I’d really like to understand your experiences. [01:25:35]

Yusra: Of Islamophobia, so to speak. First of all, thank you for acknowledging the word [01:25:40] is not right. Yeah, and it should be anti-Islam. Yeah, I [01:25:45] think that. But you know, it summarises the mindset [01:25:50] which is fear and fear stems from hate, which comes [01:25:55] from stigma and a lack of knowledge ignorance. And [01:26:00] I think that comes from I think the media have a lot to play here, because [01:26:05] if you look at crimes committed by a [01:26:10] Catholic white man in America who goes in and shoots school. [01:26:15] School children. The majority of school shootings have happened by white Catholic [01:26:20] men. What doesn’t happen is people say, oh, look at these white Catholic men, because the crimes of these people [01:26:25] don’t represent the faith and you cannot generalise. And the media don’t even [01:26:30] bring up the faith of the person. Right. But when you see a criminal [01:26:35] called Ahmed or Mohammed who commits a crime, suddenly it’s Muslim terrorists. [01:26:40] And that’s how it’s presented in the Western media. And we have to start to get [01:26:45] mindful of these things. This is called propaganda, and it [01:26:50] manufactures consent for war and for phobia and fear. [01:26:55] And I want to take you back, and I want you to understand that there are 2 billion Muslims [01:27:00] in the world. If they were these bad guys, you wouldn’t have a you [01:27:05] know, how many people, how many countries, Arabian countries have. The whole Middle East are [01:27:10] invading and bombing the Western world. It doesn’t happen. You don’t see it, and [01:27:15] it shouldn’t happen the other way around. And in order to manufacture consent, this is [01:27:20] a real thing. Go and Google manufacturing consent. Countries for years and years and years have [01:27:25] to have to remove the moral barriers for people to descend [01:27:30] for war. And to do so, they have to portray the people that they are going after as [01:27:35] these really bad, dangerous people. Now, you asked me about my father before. My father is from Iraq. [01:27:40] Mhm. Iraq is Babylonian. It’s a cradle of civilisation. It’s where education [01:27:45] was first formed. It’s the place where there was first writing. Written [01:27:50] language was ever formed called cuneiform writing.

Rhona Eskander: Egyptians were pretty up there, too, with [01:27:55] the hieroglyphics.

Yusra: The hieroglyphics. So cuneiform was the first written language, [01:28:00] and it’s known to be Harappan, is known to be the cradle of civilisation. And so sometimes [01:28:05] I hear people go, oh my God, you know, you Muslim women wearing hijab, educated, doing so well, how [01:28:10] come? And I’m like, I don’t understand your question because I’m not a deviation of the norm. I [01:28:15] am the norm. Education. There is this stigma and it’s a stigma [01:28:20] again. And if you look at it in movies, the brown man is always the terrorist, the terrorist. [01:28:25] And so when we start to see it and we remove that blind spot, then we will start to understand [01:28:30] and see the dehumanisation of the brown man or the Arab man or the [01:28:35] Muslim man, which has happened for years and years and years, which has led us to the place that we are [01:28:40] in now, where there is anti-Islamic sentiment. And it’s wrong and it’s wrong in the [01:28:45] same way anti-Semitism is wrong and both should be outlawed. At the moment, anti-Semitism is outlawed, [01:28:50] anti-Islamic sentiments is not. So where it stems from was your question. [01:28:55] I think it stems from ignorance, fear and hate. And I think it’s incumbent upon us all to start [01:29:00] to get educated about it and actually start to challenge what we’ve been told.

Rhona Eskander: I [01:29:05] want to say, though, and this is, again, me playing a little bit of devil’s advocate to understand. [01:29:10] I think that one of the big problems is, is that people are using their religion [01:29:15] to justify their actions. And this does happen in Christianity. So I just think it’s not [01:29:20] as prevalent. So I’m going to give you an example. When Afghanistan banned girls from like being [01:29:25] educated, it was in the name of like women shouldn’t be educated and we’re going to use religion. What’s going [01:29:30] on in Iran, as you know, is women can’t, you know, cross the street without covering their hair. [01:29:35] Otherwise they’ll be killed and tortured in the name of, you know, religion. And so, unfortunately, [01:29:40] people have abused Islam, which I don’t think is the essence of what the Quran [01:29:45] says, but they have taken it. I showed you the other day a very problematic influencer [01:29:50] with a big following that was suddenly spewing out that, you know, a woman’s place is at home, [01:29:55] etc. in the name of what he thinks Islam is. So do you think that people have [01:30:00] misunderstood? And as I said, sure, you do get in Christianity sometimes saying, [01:30:05] you know, this is in the name of this, but I think that you’re seeing more of it where people are justifying [01:30:10] certain actions or certain ways that women should behave in the name of Islam. So do you not think that’s part [01:30:15] of the problem?

Yusra: I think the problem is that we accept the generalisation [01:30:20] of all people based on the actions of the few. It’s the same way. I mean, would you say [01:30:25] this to an Irish person on your podcast and say Catholic Catholicism? Yeah. [01:30:30] I mean, does the IRA represent Catholicism? No, of course not. Yeah. You know, and we’ve got [01:30:35] to make that differentiation and distinguish the two. And I reject the, the concept [01:30:40] that the Taliban is in any way representative of Islam. I [01:30:45] reject the ideology that ISIS are in any way a reflection of Islam. You know, [01:30:50] when I moved to Liverpool, the first place that I ever took, my son, who was two years old at the time, was to a church [01:30:55] where there was a playgroup and immediately, you know, there [01:31:00] Liverpool. I’m in a little white village and it’s not multicultural. [01:31:05] And so I stood out, aesthetically speaking, I, you know, I cover [01:31:10] my hair, not my brain, but, you know, I looked different. And so there was a little bit of a guest fear. [01:31:15] This is eight years ago. And finally a woman came to talk to me. I thought, great, [01:31:20] the first thing she said to me is, what do you think of ISIS? What? And I was gutted. Yes. This [01:31:25] is what she said to me.

Rhona Eskander: That’s horrendous.

Yusra: But this has been my experience on many, many times. I remember [01:31:30] when I took my six month old son to America, to Texas, because my husband was [01:31:35] working there, the people that he was working with, as soon as I walked into the room, were shocked that he’s married [01:31:40] to a woman who’s wearing a scarf. And it was like pindrop silence. And they said, we [01:31:45] just want to ask, what do you think of ISIS? And and I remember Hassan and I looking at [01:31:50] each other, and I’m like, they think that we represent ISIS. Are you kidding me? Let’s talk about ISIS. [01:31:55] Isis are a terrorist organisation that went not into the Western world. They went into Syria and [01:32:00] killed. Who killed Muslims in their masses. Right? Syria was a beautiful [01:32:05] country. That was our destination. Yeah. And people were living and thriving. [01:32:10] They had a gorgeous life. Doctors, dentists, lawyers, businessmen fled persecution [01:32:15] from ISIS, put their children in rubber dinghies not because they were less than, not [01:32:20] because they were pro ISIS. And when they came here, if you listen to the people who were there, [01:32:25] they say ISIS didn’t know how to pray. They didn’t understand the Quran. They didn’t know the direction of prayer. They were not Muslims, and [01:32:30] they do not represent Islam. And when it comes to education of women, I if [01:32:35] you allow me to explain 1400 years ago, when Islam [01:32:40] came was was born, women were given rights to education, equal [01:32:45] rights to education, and actually revered and encouraged to be educated and to be educators. [01:32:50]

Yusra: They were given rights to work. They were given rights to inheritance, [01:32:55] to land ownership, to keep their own name. Because you don’t start and stop when you get married. Being married doesn’t [01:33:00] identify who you are And the wife’s prophet. The prophet’s wife was called Khadija. [01:33:05] She was a woman who was older than him. She was a tradeswoman. She was a trader. She was a business owner. [01:33:10] She employed him and she proposed to him. Okay. So she proposed [01:33:15] to a man that was younger than her, who was her employee. These are all for a reason. These broke the social [01:33:20] norms and constructs at the time as a message that this is the this is the norm. This [01:33:25] this is the the reverence of women in society. So this ideology that women should [01:33:30] be homemakers is personal preference of whoever this man was. And I’ve seen this personal preference [01:33:35] being discussed by men of Muslim faith, men of Christian faith. [01:33:40] That’s what I said, Jewish faith, men of no faith. And they can manipulate Scripture because [01:33:45] man is corrupt to help propagate their own. [01:33:50] Their own selves. This is the corruption of man, not not the. And [01:33:55] this is not representative of the faith. And racism is when we accept stereotyping and [01:34:00] generalisation of negative assumptions of a sex or group of people.

Rhona Eskander: Totally. [01:34:05] I completely I completely agree with what you’re saying, but what I’m asking you is, [01:34:10] do you not think it is dangerous that these people are using religion as [01:34:15] a way to say, this is what the religion says?

Payman Langroudi: People will always use something like religion to [01:34:20] say something. I mean, it’s it’s the point you’re making is.

Yusra: Trolling, right? Don’t get the airtime. Yeah. [01:34:25] There’s always going to be someone out there who’s an extremist in their own right or has or has an opinion. [01:34:30] So how did he, you know, scroll past it doesn’t matter. What’s what [01:34:35] matters is that we’re educated enough to not say, ah, that’s why there’s.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, you’re right, but you’ll misinterpret. [01:34:40] Us three are educated enough. Us three. Yeah. Okay. But I get shocked when [01:34:45] I came into a situation. I don’t want to put her into it. Saying [01:34:50] that I’m compassionate about what’s going on in the world. The immediate response [01:34:55] is in the conflict. She was. And she’s, by the way, white Christian. She said, [01:35:00] yeah, but, you know, I don’t want, you know, Muslims are taking over. I was like, what do you mean? Yeah, and I [01:35:05] was, but she’s an educated woman. She’s not a stupid woman. So I think that you are assuming, you [01:35:10] know, that people are as educated as you.

[TRANSITION]: You know.

Payman Langroudi: There is a narrative that’s called the Great Replacement [01:35:15] therapy. Uh, great replacement theory, okay. Which is a narrative [01:35:20] that right, in America using and and some of the right ear. Yeah. And it’s this question of, oh, [01:35:25] Muslims are coming here and having children. And and their plan is conspiracy [01:35:30] theories, and their plan is to to have more Muslims and Christians and to replacement. [01:35:35] And it’s it’s been a tool of it’s a political tool, but.

[TRANSITION]: It’s a.

Yusra: Tool [01:35:40] to do what?

[TRANSITION]: To manipulate people towards dehumanisation.

Yusra: Hold on. Once we recognise [01:35:45] this. You’re right. What are you seeing happening in Palestine? They’re called subhuman. They’re called agents of [01:35:50] evil. They’re called sons of dogs. Is it dehumanisation? And that dehumanisation [01:35:55] has to be refuted. It has to be. Because if we allow [01:36:00] that, if we accept that narrative, then we are accepting to dehumanise others which dehumanises [01:36:05] ourselves. If we fail to have empathy for others, we lose our own self compassion. We [01:36:10] literally this is a degradation of society. And if people are talking about oppression of Muslim women, again, I refute [01:36:15] it. If you look at the or the women, Muslim women are uneducated or don’t have equal [01:36:20] rights, Taliban don’t reflect. Of course.

Rhona Eskander: Nor does the Iranian government. I mean, Payman [01:36:25] Payman knows that, you know.

Yusra: Kkk or KKK reflective, of course.

Rhona Eskander: Of course. But what I’m trying [01:36:30] to I get that, I get that right. So you.

Yusra: Tell them, if they say this to you, you tell them.

[TRANSITION]: No, it’s not.

Rhona Eskander: Even about that. [01:36:35] It’s the fact that I see. Okay, sure. I can tell the person that I don’t want to embarrass her. [01:36:40] That really shocked me in this interaction. And I did that and I was like, have a look. I gave her [01:36:45] all of your arguments. But what scares me is that when I meet a lot of educated people [01:36:50] that say that or that say, you know, oh, but what about this? And [01:36:55] what’s and it’s very repressed and da da da da da da da da. And listen, because my mom as well is very passionate about [01:37:00] like the history and culture, especially of the Middle East. You know how being Palestinian, Lebanese [01:37:05] and exactly what you said and you say and I think it annoys me that I see people [01:37:10] using the faith to justify this kind of behaviour. That’s pretty much what I’m saying.

Yusra: Annoys [01:37:15] me too.

Rhona Eskander: It annoys me. It really annoys me.

Yusra: But only thing that you can do to combat fear [01:37:20] and hate.

[TRANSITION]: Look, hate.

Yusra: Is taught, right? So if hate can be taught, so can love. But [01:37:25] it comes down to education. Yeah. And you say that they’re educated. They’re educated in what they. [01:37:30] Where did they receive their education from? Most of them heard stories. They’re not truly [01:37:35] educated about history. They’re not truly educated. You know, I had this conversation with my financial advisor [01:37:40] the other day and he said to me, yeah, but wasn’t Muhammad a warlord as in the Prophet Muhammad? And I said. [01:37:45]

[TRANSITION]: You know.

Yusra: What are you talking about? Islam actually says you’re not allowed to start wars. There were rules of war. [01:37:50] Now we talk about international rules of war. There were rules of war 1400 years ago. Islam [01:37:55] says you can’t start war. You can defend against war, but you can’t start war. You can’t kill children. You can’t kill [01:38:00] women. You can’t cut down trees. There have always been these rules of war. Then he said to me, yeah, but what about women? They’re not [01:38:05] educated in Islam. Like, what are you talking about? Women have been revered. Education has been the pillar [01:38:10] of Islam for years ago. Arabia is where astrology starts. Its philosophy, algebra, [01:38:15] I mean. But people are not educated about that. Most people don’t know that the first university that was [01:38:20] ever formed was formed by a muslim hijabi woman in Fez, Morocco, called Fatima. That was the first university [01:38:25] and it’s a Unesco heritage site. Don’t look at me as a deviation of the norm. If [01:38:30] anything, I could do so much more. And it’s the women in Arabia that have inspired me. [01:38:35] And and when I when you’re talking about education, I think they’ve got skewed education.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I [01:38:40] think they’ve got bias.

Payman Langroudi: You know, these words like Islamophobia. Yeah. [01:38:45] I you know, you’ve got to understand that the alternative to the word Islamophobia [01:38:50] is anti-Muslim hate.

[TRANSITION]: Yes. But why don’t they use that?

Payman Langroudi: Because, well, anti-Muslim hate [01:38:55] is three words.

[TRANSITION]: You tell me.

Payman Langroudi: Um, because it’s three words. Yeah. And Islamophobia is one word. [01:39:00] Because because anti-islamism. Islamism is different to Islam. Yeah. [01:39:05]

[TRANSITION]: Islamism. Anti-muslim.

Yusra: Yeah. Well, anti-Muslim.

[TRANSITION]: Well. But what I’m saying is sometimes, [01:39:10] sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes these words evolve in that way because of things like this. Also [01:39:15] the ISIS point. Yeah. If something’s been in the news. Yeah, [01:39:20] it’s natural to bring it up. Yeah. So today some Jewish guy [01:39:25] in Australia is being asked, what do you think about Israel? Yeah, yeah. Um, while [01:39:30] the. You’re right, while the, uh, Iraq war was on. Yeah. Some American guy in Buenos [01:39:35] Aires was being asked, what do you think about. Yeah. So if eight years ago when, when ISIS [01:39:40] was really at its peak. Yeah. It’s the way it’s the way humans interact. [01:39:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. And you know, look, it doesn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Mean that person.

[TRANSITION]: Was saying.

Payman Langroudi: You’re an ISIS sympathiser. [01:39:50]

[TRANSITION]: No, but, you know, it’s the way humans interact.

Rhona Eskander: But I understand [01:39:55] what you’re saying. In the same way it really it upsets me that people [01:40:00] assume things about my religion and culture just because I’m Arab.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, but, you know.

Rhona Eskander: But it does annoy [01:40:05] me because I think that’s lack of education.

Payman Langroudi: People don’t realise there are Christian Arabs.

Rhona Eskander: Apart from [01:40:10] the Christian Arabs. They’ll make assumptions about being Arab. You know, and I had assumptions about my [01:40:15] father and things I did and Egypt and Lebanon and like, okay, look, I don’t listen. [01:40:20] If someone asks me to reel off, like, Chinese culture, sure. I’m not well versed with Chinese [01:40:25] culture.

[TRANSITION]: Naturally, but.

Rhona Eskander: I just feel I really try hard not to.

[TRANSITION]: Project. [01:40:30] That’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Good point. So, yeah, you’ve got to understand that point. Yeah. My my [01:40:35] my, uh, team. Yeah. She said to me. Yeah. You know, when we’re talking, we call you an Arab. [01:40:40] Yeah. I’m not, I’m not an Arab.

[TRANSITION]: People call me all the time, but I’m person.

Rhona Eskander: I’m [01:40:45] like, I’m Arab.

[TRANSITION]: Hold on, hold on.

Payman Langroudi: I said I’m Persian. We don’t even speak.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:40:50]

Payman Langroudi: And then she said to me, she’s from Romania. She said, what do you call me? Eastern European. [01:40:55] Yeah. Yeah. So, so I’m so different to the Lithuanians and. But you just classes all of Eastern [01:41:00] European. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So the Norse, the Norse. My wife is a Christian Arab. Yeah. [01:41:05] So I understand exactly what you’re saying.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. You know. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But you don’t know anything about Chinese [01:41:10] languages, Chinese, different foods. Chinese you don’t.

[TRANSITION]: And people aren’t [01:41:15] expected to know these details.

Yusra: You’re right, you’re right. Absolutely. Payman is absolutely spot on. [01:41:20] But then what’s incumbent upon us is prior to passing judgement based on feeling is to find [01:41:25] out facts.

Rhona Eskander: But that’s why I said to you. Because when I when I had a catch up with Zainab yesterday, it [01:41:30] was so great for her and we had a conversation, no defence. And she was like, I [01:41:35] want to tell you about this. And I was like, fascinating. Now I know, now I know how was I meant to know before? And also [01:41:40] I didn’t even know I was causing offence by it because I just thought it was a word, you know? So I think the most [01:41:45] important thing, and that’s why I wanted to have this conversation on this podcast, is we have to have conversations, right, [01:41:50] I do I want to do conversation as the way. Now, before we move on from this topic, [01:41:55] I also.

Yusra: Want to say one other thing. You know, you you mentioned about homemakers, and I want to [01:42:00] say, because this is something I feel really passionate about, is I get [01:42:05] a lot. I got asked a lot about how do you do it, your mum of three, your business owner. And I [01:42:10] see women from all walks of life with different roles. And I have women who come in who are apologetic [01:42:15] for their roles as homemakers and maker is not less than [01:42:20] being in the workplace. And it’s really important that we make that clear, because [01:42:25] that role of raising children, it’s huge, is is huge, is difficult, is 24 [01:42:30] over seven and is a part of the team effort. If the husband is the breadwinner, [01:42:35] sometimes the husband’s the homemaker and and the woman is a breadwinner doesn’t really matter what works within [01:42:40] that family unit. But the idea that the homemaker is less than absolutely [01:42:45] needs to stop.

Rhona Eskander: I think that we need to stop bashing each other as women. I’m going [01:42:50] to take men out of the equation because what I’ve seen is, is, yes, women may get bashed by men, but they also [01:42:55] get bashed by other women. What you choose to do in your life is what you choose to [01:43:00] do. Whether you choose to have children, whether you choose to be a full time housewife, whether you choose to be a career woman, whether you [01:43:05] choose to do both, whether you choose to get a nanny, you have to do what is right for you. And we have got [01:43:10] to stop bashing each other. We have got to start supporting each other. One thing I want to [01:43:15] lastly say about the thing that’ll ever happen, I’ll come back on to that. But I want to bring this point. [01:43:20] I want to bring I want to bring up this point about, do you have you seen the film? You resemble me? [01:43:25] No, it’s a masterpiece. Okay. My Egyptian friend Dina Amir, she [01:43:30] is a journalist. Okay, so let me tell you a little about this. You both need to watch it. It’s an absolute masterpiece. [01:43:35] She created a film. She lived in Paris. She grew up in Paris. She understood the racism [01:43:40] that goes in France.

Rhona Eskander: Huge segregation, huge racism. Do you remember when there [01:43:45] was all the bombings in Paris again, the terrorist attacks. Je suis Charlie, all of that stuff that happened [01:43:50] that night, I think a nightclub had been bombed or something like that. So she was working [01:43:55] for vice. The magazine vice called her and said, we want you to cover this. It was [01:44:00] a female, the first female terrorist attack. So I don’t know. They said that she. [01:44:05] So they said she blew herself up. Now, the kind of fake news that was [01:44:10] propagating all over Paris that night. Cnn no one knew the facts. Everyone [01:44:15] was giving the story. The. The mother of the female terrorist [01:44:20] would only allow Dina to interview her because she said, you look like my daughter. [01:44:25] Hence you resemble me. They were a Moroccan family. And then when Dina [01:44:30] went into the story, she realised that she also was propagating this news around something [01:44:35] that was so much deeper. And she ended up making a film about [01:44:40] this female terrorist and dispelling it. Now the beauty about the story [01:44:45] is the girl came from a broken home from Morocco. They were segregated and ostracised [01:44:50] in society. The father was a gambler. The mother couldn’t look after the children. [01:44:55] The children were torn apart. The childhood.

[TRANSITION]: Was.

Rhona Eskander: Broken. She ended [01:45:00] up in prostitution. In this, in this, in this, in this society rejected [01:45:05] her and she was a human being that was a shell of herself. And [01:45:10] she got a call from her cousin. I’m an ISIS. Isis is a community. [01:45:15] We can help you. You’re going to get love. I’m going to give you love. You’re going [01:45:20] to have a family. You’re going to have a husband. She didn’t join you. Don’t become [01:45:25] born a terrorist. You don’t come out of the womb being like, I aspire to join ISIS. [01:45:30] She was a broken human. She was groomed.

[TRANSITION]: As a broken shell of herself.

Rhona Eskander: Broken child. And it’s a societal [01:45:35] problem. I’m sorry. I’m going to say it. You might say, because I’ve heard the argument. But France [01:45:40] gave her a chance. France took her in. She should be grateful to France. And, you know, it’s really [01:45:45] scary because when she got adopted, when she got taken in by some of the families, they tried to [01:45:50] force her to eat pork. They tried to force her to straighten her hair. You know what I mean? They wouldn’t accept her culture. [01:45:55] And that’s not what she ran away.

[TRANSITION]: How do you feel about paedophiles?

Rhona Eskander: What do you mean? How did that come up.

Payman Langroudi: In [01:46:00] the same? In the same sense that people aren’t born paedophiles.

Rhona Eskander: Listen, I think your store is going to have some empathy [01:46:05] for what I’m saying, because. And maybe this is the end. But of course, I don’t agree with paedophilia.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t agree with it. But in [01:46:10] that same sense that.

Rhona Eskander: I think that some people that come out, they might have been abused as a child. I’m [01:46:15] not saying it justifies what they do, but the way that we treat people that.

[TRANSITION]: Have issues, a.

Rhona Eskander: Similar thing [01:46:20] allows them to behave the way. But it’s the same way that we treat addicts. We punish addicts. [01:46:25] Why do people become addicts? It’s complex. Gabor Maté talks about this, and I think the notion [01:46:30] of people joining terrorists, even what was her name that tried to come back to the country, people.

[TRANSITION]: That joined 16 [01:46:35] years old and.

Rhona Eskander: Tried to come that join these terrorist organisations. It [01:46:40] is not in the name of religion, it’s in the name of people being broken and wanting to find love and community [01:46:45] crazily. You know, there’s almost like an oxymoron in it. Yeah. And they go and they realise that [01:46:50] that’s not the reality.

Payman Langroudi: Where can you watch the film?

Rhona Eskander: Um, you can get it, I think, on Netflix or honestly, both of you, [01:46:55] it’s called You Resemble Me. It’s the most beautiful film I’ve ever seen. That’s incredible.

[TRANSITION]: And she gives.

Rhona Eskander: A voice [01:47:00] to that person. You know what I mean? Which people might not agree with. But I think everyone has that history. [01:47:05]

Yusra: Yeah, I think that this is a really interesting conversation. And I often [01:47:10] think about children who come from war, who have lost everything. When they’ve lost their family, they’re going to breed. [01:47:15]

[TRANSITION]: A new what’s.

Yusra: Going to happen there when they’ve watched their that when, when they watch [01:47:20] their mother and father and brother torn to bits and the world has let them down in [01:47:25] their eyes, they become vulnerable then to manipulation, and you can [01:47:30] see.

[TRANSITION]: The potential.

Yusra: Trajectory.

[TRANSITION]: Absolutely lost.

Payman Langroudi: Children.

Yusra: I mean, if you lost your.

[TRANSITION]: Child, what would you.

Yusra: Do? [01:47:35] Right? That these are things that we need to understand as a society so that we can [01:47:40] treat the root cause and stop war. You know, calling for peace [01:47:45] should never be a controversy. And I think it’s also important that we separate [01:47:50] people from the policies of their government in the same way that you are basically telling the story [01:47:55] about this woman and how and why she became a terrorist. And it’s really important to never generalise, [01:48:00] and it’s important to understand that the actions of the few don’t represent the masses of [01:48:05] a faith. And that’s why we have to ensure that in our society there is [01:48:10] no space for hate, there is no space for anti-Semitism, there is no space for anti-Islamic hate. There [01:48:15] is no space for racism. And the only way that we can stop wars and we [01:48:20] can stop hate and we can stop violence against others is stopping dehumanisation [01:48:25] and teaching respect and love and tolerance. And that.

Rhona Eskander: I think, really does [01:48:30] start also in the healthcare profession. It’s really important. And that’s why I think my message to [01:48:35] a lot of people is that we cannot speak to each other in that way. Agree. We could talk [01:48:40] for ages. I’m literally like, I can see, I can see rich. Kind of like peering over [01:48:45] at times. Yes. I also wanted to ask you, I know we kind of touched [01:48:50] on this a little bit about wearing your hijab, right. Again, I think [01:48:55] people it’s important to recognise that people do for choice, you know, because I think there [01:49:00] is this misconception and as like you said, as soon as you’re a woman that wears a hijab, you are a certain [01:49:05] type of woman. Do you want to tell us about any difficulties or challenges or misconceptions [01:49:10] that you faced within your own profession? You’ve touched on Liverpool a little bit and you know [01:49:15] how people have these preconceived ideas. Has there been anything within the work space that has made it challenging? [01:49:20]

Yusra: Luckily, not in the UK. Great. And I actually also worked in banking for a short period of time. [01:49:25] I didn’t ever feel held back by hijab. No. And I’ve been really clear that [01:49:30] my decision to cover my hair is a choice that I make as an empowered woman, [01:49:35] and I don’t think anyone I have not noticed or been aware of anyone [01:49:40] treating me differently in the UK. But when I have been abroad, when [01:49:45] I went to my first conference abroad in Chicago, do you remember after did you go to that Chicago conference? [01:49:50] There was a big Dental conference in Chicago. When I was there. I was signing up to the literally [01:49:55] doing my registration, and this man came right up to me and [01:50:00] he said, you don’t belong here. And in.

[TRANSITION]: The conference.

Yusra: That’s it. He was a dentist [01:50:05] and he said.

Payman Langroudi: Winter mid-winter.

[TRANSITION]: Conference.

Yusra: That’s the one. It was mid winter conference. [01:50:10] And he said, take that scarf off your head, really take that tip. And he just kept going and and [01:50:15] I, you know, there’s no I didn’t have the toolkit to deal with that. I didn’t know [01:50:20] how to respond to him. So I just thought, give no air time, you know, don’t pander. [01:50:25] Eventually what you ignore will will disappear. And he just continued and continued. And then a crowd [01:50:30] was coming around. Nobody stood up for me, and it was just really scary. And then one [01:50:35] of my close friends who’s Jewish, her name is Claire, basically said to the guy, get lost, get away [01:50:40] from her. And then he listened to her and he went away. And she stuck with me for the rest of the time. That [01:50:45] was probably the scariest experience that I had. And now when [01:50:50] I go to Monaco every year, I go to Monaco, to a big MWC, the World [01:50:55] Congress in France. As you know, you’re not allowed to wear a scarf in public place in, [01:51:00] um, in the beach.

[TRANSITION]: As a scarf.

Rhona Eskander: As well. I thought for some reason I prohibited burqa. So now it’s [01:51:05] a hijab as well?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Yusra: So every time and women have been arrested, fines [01:51:10] been forced to take off their clothes, remove their scarf when they’re on the beach. And this is well documented. [01:51:15] So whenever we go there, a lot of them want to go to the beach. And, you know, I just [01:51:20] I obviously don’t go because I don’t want to create a scene.

[TRANSITION]: So this is in Monaco.

Rhona Eskander: So there’s [01:51:25] the rules apply to Monaco as well I assume.

Yusra: So I assume so but I haven’t looked into it. Yeah. [01:51:30] So those are the times that I’m conscious of it where I know that I may be exposed. [01:51:35] Exactly, exactly. But you know, I have patients who come and travel [01:51:40] from all around the world to see me, including patients from France, that I always say separate the [01:51:45] policies from the government of the people. I don’t want people listening to this and going, oh, she’s slandering France. I’m not. Yeah. These are the [01:51:50] realities of the experiences of people who may wear a scarf and therefore demonstrate [01:51:55] their faith in countries where it’s prohibited to do so. I’m lucky that we are afforded [01:52:00] liberty and freedom of choice here. I worry about a day that we might not remember when the YSL [01:52:05] co-founder and business owner is, about ten years ago, made a statement that wearing [01:52:10] a scarf is the enslavement of women and that people should be encouraged to pull scarves of women’s [01:52:15] heads. Those are the times where I’ve thought, oh my God, my safety was a concern, [01:52:20] but I haven’t experienced that.

Rhona Eskander: We’re lucky the UK is extremely democratic. One [01:52:25] of the big reasons my dad wanted to leave Saudi and bring us up here is because of the democracy [01:52:30] in the UK. I mean, like this was Saudi like 37 years ago, you know, so that’s [01:52:35] not what it is now. Of course, Saudis becoming like one of the most like it places now. [01:52:40] But yeah, you know, we’re lucky because I think the beautiful thing about the UK, especially London, [01:52:45] I love it. You go to a bus stop, you’ll see someone Chinese, black, Arab, white all [01:52:50] sitting together. And I love it.

[TRANSITION]: And I think it’s important, you know, I think.

Yusra: It’s important even within my clinic [01:52:55] my business managers is is Jewish. My skin concierge lady. Her name is ocean. [01:53:00] She’s Baha’i. My my other manager Lane is atheist. Some of them are Christian and [01:53:05] we’re multicultural. Multi-faith.

[TRANSITION]: We all love each other.

Yusra: There’s no issue. We have compassion [01:53:10] for each other. The first point at which ever their democracy is at stake, [01:53:15] I’ll be the first person to advocate for them and and safeguard them.

Rhona Eskander: Perfect. Gosh. [01:53:20] So I feel like we could talk for hours and hours. Um, I want to end by asking you [01:53:25] what the future holds for doctor clinics. Like you’ve won best aesthetic [01:53:30] practitioner, like, 700 years in a row. So we’ve ticked that multi-award winning and etc. but [01:53:35] is there anything new exciting on the horizon?

[TRANSITION]: I just think.

Yusra: Continual learning every day continue [01:53:40] growing every day. I have little projects in the pipeline which will be revealed in [01:53:45] due course, but.

[TRANSITION]: Just.

Yusra: This is.

Rhona Eskander: Not the soft launch then?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, no, that’s not good. [01:53:50]

Yusra: So genuinely, I just am excited by what I do every single day. I jump out of bed in [01:53:55] love with what I do. I’m lucky. I literally, I think us dentists went into it because we care for people, [01:54:00] and it’s that beautiful combination of art, science and people. I just want to keep doing that and giving back to the profession [01:54:05] and growing and learning until I die.

[TRANSITION]: I love that so much.

Rhona Eskander: And what would be your [01:54:10] advice for perhaps young dentists that are thinking about leaving dentistry but are scared.

[TRANSITION]: To. [01:54:15]

Yusra: Leaving dentistry. So like.

Rhona Eskander: In the same way, I guess the way that you have it in terms of like not [01:54:20] doing clinical dentistry and focusing on facial aesthetics.

Yusra: Find your passion and excel [01:54:25] at it.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, and.

Yusra: I think believe in yourself. There’s nothing that you cannot do.

[TRANSITION]: Perfect. [01:54:30] Do you think.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think sometimes it’s the other way around. Excel at something and that will become your passion because [01:54:35] a lot of people, they spend their whole time thinking, well is my passion facial aesthetics? Is [01:54:40] it is it endo? Is it Berio? Is it my. My advice is get really [01:54:45] good at one of them and it will be your passion.

Yusra: It’s a good advice as well. For me, [01:54:50] I found something that really I was. The passion came first. The [01:54:55] passion and the why came before the excelling at it. And by the way, I never.

[TRANSITION]: You.

Yusra: Know, whilst [01:55:00] it’s always humbling and nice to be recognised, best aesthetic whatever I don’t take these awards to [01:55:05] actually mean that I’m the best or the best that I can be. Of course, that’s not how I see it, and I, I [01:55:10] never want to actually consider myself as an expert or ever think that I know at all. [01:55:15] You know, because I don’t I don’t think I’ll ever know at all. I’ve been doing this for 14 years. I’m still learning new things [01:55:20] every single day. So I don’t know.

Rhona Eskander: I think the one thing that I’ll say about awards, because I have [01:55:25] a lot of young dentists that get really upset and so forth, I it took me a really [01:55:30] long time to like everything. Come on, give me a break, universe. But like, I was never you know, it took [01:55:35] me a really long time to win awards. And actually, I remember when I first opened up my practice and poured my heart into [01:55:40] it. The only thing I really wanted was to win an award for, like, the best practice, because, like, I’ve [01:55:45] done everything and we went to the private dentistry awards and I was up for like loads of awards, and we walked [01:55:50] away empty handed and we had a whole table and I was so embarrassed and I called, I called, I called [01:55:55] Joe the next day and I was just sobbing to him and I was like, I’m total failure. [01:56:00] I was like, love it. I was like, I’m a total failure. And Joe and like [01:56:05] Joe always says, what you say. He’s like, I can’t deal with, like how insecure you are. [01:56:10] Like, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: I.

[TRANSITION]: Don’t I.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t go for awards with enlighten in case I lose.

Yusra: Really fear [01:56:15] of.

[TRANSITION]: Failure is huge.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t it? The fact that you actually went for them itself is very brave.

[TRANSITION]: But the point. [01:56:20]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, exactly. But but the point is, is that I always [01:56:25] say when I now I go to these awards because I’ve been asked to present them or I’ve asked to be a judge. [01:56:30] When I see young people get so disheartened, I’m like, it really doesn’t define you. Like, I.

[TRANSITION]: Bet. [01:56:35]

Rhona Eskander: I didn’t even really get into a practice nor get a job because people didn’t like me. But you [01:56:40] know what? That pain. I turned it into power. My pain. I turned it into power because it propelled me [01:56:45] forward. So I think, you know, you’re right. These awards do not define. It’s an incredible achievement. I [01:56:50] know you know that. You don’t take them as like. It means that you’re the best in the world. But also I recognise [01:56:55] how much hard work goes into them. And it’s definitely, you know, it’s deserved. Thank you.

[TRANSITION]: So much. [01:57:00] Thank you, thank you.

Rhona Eskander: There’s an amazing thank you guys by.

Faris: And also just changed the way I thought a lot. I got really data specific about everything that I do, so everything. Now, if something [00:00:05] fails, I don’t get stressed. I’m like, okay, it’s failed. Why has it failed? Let’s work out. Let’s work around the [00:00:10] problem solving. Yeah, you’ve got to solve. That’s all Start-Ups are just you have to put out fires left, [00:00:15] right and centre. And if you don’t, well, Start-Ups die all the time, don’t they? Like most Start-Ups fail. [00:00:20] If you’re not putting out fires and you don’t learn how to problem solve quickly and get very creative, you will not [00:00:25] survive. So you have to do that.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, in a way, it’s the only advantage of Start-Ups got [00:00:30] is that nimbleness, right? And speed is speed critical, you know, especially [00:00:35] when you’re going up against some of the biggest companies in the industry, right? Yeah.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:40] is Dental Leaders, the [00:00:45] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [00:00:50] leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:55] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:01:00] gives me great pleasure to welcome Faris El-Sayed to the podcast. Faris [00:01:05] is in his year in his PhD year, but since the second year [00:01:10] of dental school at King’s has been running a YouTube channel called Faris Dent, [00:01:15] which I guess you’re most famous for. Recently started a company [00:01:20] called All Eyes Sky, which works on [00:01:25] the helping students and job seekers with [00:01:30] interviews and job courses to do before they get onto courses. [00:01:35] So lovely to have you, Ferris. Thank you.

Faris: Payman. Thank you so much for the introduction. Excited to be here.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me, buddy, [00:01:40] were you always a high achiever?

Faris: Well, um, [00:01:45] I wouldn’t necessarily define myself as a high achiever. I think I’m just a very busy. [00:01:50] I’m a very busy mind. I get bored very easily, which I think is a big problem that my that [00:01:55] my teachers and my parents used to used to say we didn’t really focus very well when I was younger, and [00:02:00] from that I always just tried to keep really busy. So whether it’s sports, not as much [00:02:05] now, but whether it’s sports, when I was younger or academics, I’d always be doing something to [00:02:10] keep as busy as possible. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So why dentistry?

Faris: What [00:02:15] a great question. This gives me a throwback to five years ago when I was applying, but I think [00:02:20] the main reason I enjoyed dentistry is I wanted to go into a career that combined a bit of healthcare. So my parents [00:02:25] are both doctors, so I got to see that experience firsthand and something that allowed me to have the flexibility [00:02:30] to be a bit more entrepreneurial. So my first experience in dentistry, going to [00:02:35] the dentist, I actually really enjoyed the whole thing, like seeing how it run. I found it really weird how, [00:02:40] you know, my parents would go and they’d pay money for treatment compared to the NHS in medicine. And [00:02:45] from that point I realised, I think this is a career that marries two things that I like really well.

Payman Langroudi: So is there [00:02:50] a conversation where your parents said definitely don’t do medicine 100%?

Faris: I think my parents, both. [00:02:55]

Payman Langroudi: Of them are doctors.

Faris: Yeah, they’re both doctors. They both kind of said it’s a fantastic career, don’t get me wrong. And I come from [00:03:00] a family of, you know, who are mostly doctors, but unfortunately, I think how the NHS is at the moment, [00:03:05] it’s quite challenging and straining on workers in the NHS. And they both told me, I [00:03:10] think if you’re going to do something in the healthcare field, maybe don’t do medicine. So it kind [00:03:15] of started from there.

Payman Langroudi: And then this focus on how to get in.

Faris: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Were you [00:03:20] very successful at getting in yourself. Like did you find that there weren’t any resources [00:03:25] when you were looking. So yeah, that’s why you set it up.

Faris: So I was quite fortunate that [00:03:30] I, you know, I come from quite a privileged background. As I said, my parents are both doctors, so I had [00:03:35] a lot of resources available to me. I went to a grammar school for secondary and I went to a semi selective [00:03:40] sixth form. So I got to see firsthand how important it was to have those extracurriculars [00:03:45] and things outside of just your academia, your A-level grades and your GCSE grades. And [00:03:50] that is what really propelled me forward into wanting to create resources for free and [00:03:55] help people get into dentistry and medicine, because there’s a lot of really, really, really smart kids out there [00:04:00] that don’t know what they’re missing out on. You know, they may not realise how important the ucat [00:04:05] is or they may not realise how important it is to improve their soft skills so that when they [00:04:10] go into interviews, they’re not just saying, oh, I’ve got three stars. It’s like, well, okay, well done, you know, join [00:04:15] the club. So yeah, I don’t think I came from a place of a lack of privilege. It was more identifying [00:04:20] that there’s a real problem here. There must be a solution that is easier than [00:04:25] just, you know, asking Joe, who’s a year four student at King’s, what interview questions [00:04:30] came up a couple of years ago?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but I mean, it’s a hard life being a student [00:04:35] in the first place. Definitely at King’s. Right. Very competitive. Yeah. The next guy might have [00:04:40] just been, you know, going out, having a great time, and yet you decide to set up this YouTube [00:04:45] channel?

Faris: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The driving force behind that was [00:04:50] it. Did you have the long term vision that it was eventually going to turn into [00:04:55] a business, and that it is now, or were you simply putting content out [00:05:00] to get likes and views and helping? What was it? What was what was driving you? Because why [00:05:05] weren’t you just partying?

Faris: Yeah, that’s a good question. Yeah. I didn’t really party too much. I was a bit [00:05:10] of a boring, boring student in that sense. What pushed me into building something was just [00:05:15] based on my kind of philosophy in life, which is I want to be the best at everything that I do. [00:05:20] So I realised that in dental school, if I graduated with just a BDS, that wouldn’t [00:05:25] be enough for me because everyone else in the year is getting the same thing. So I thought, what things can I do that are low effort [00:05:30] but can yield really good results? So I was like, okay, let’s do some social media. So start with the YouTube, did some [00:05:35] podcasting, did some blog writing, and from that I gained skills that I knew would transfer into a career [00:05:40] in dentistry or a career in entrepreneurship down the line. So I always think if [00:05:45] I’m going to do something, what’s the long term impact going to be? But you.

Payman Langroudi: Were thinking that when you said. [00:05:50]

Faris: 100%, that’s that’s how I, I’ve always thought it’s just when I do something, there’s a reason [00:05:55] behind it. I’m not just doing it for the sake of doing it. Obviously, I have to enjoy what I do, but I wanted [00:06:00] to do it with the intention of building something in the future or at the very minimum, being able to say, well, [00:06:05] I’ve left uni, but I’ve also developed this skill and this skill and this skill. So if I go to an employer, if I’m [00:06:10] even working as just a generalist.

Payman Langroudi: Out somehow.

Faris: Yeah, stand out in a way.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, [00:06:15] whenever anyone’s doing anything for the first time or at the beginning, I remember with this podcast, yeah, at [00:06:20] the beginning you get very little traction. Yeah. How long did it take before you thought, I’ve [00:06:25] got something here. Like how many videos have you made? How long did it take?

Faris: Yeah. So I [00:06:30] think with the channel it’s I did quite well in the beginning. I was quite [00:06:35] fortunate that I found my niche really early, so I was able to see the results directly because [00:06:40] I would do kind of free sessions for, you know, people that are applying for dentistry and medicine to come in. So within [00:06:45] my first 10 to 15 videos, I was getting some decent numbers really to the point. Yeah. So I [00:06:50] was quite fortunate. Yeah, it was lucky. It was very lucky. Obviously it’s not a massive channel, but when you’re, I think something you [00:06:55] learn also in business is if you’re able to, you know, dominate a niche in the market, it’s more valuable [00:07:00] than trying to go after, you know, a behemoth of a market or something a lot bigger that you can get very little [00:07:05] of. Um, so I got really, really granular into the content I created. I really connected with the community. [00:07:10] So all the students that were trying to get in and I made sure that anything, anything I put out there, I’d [00:07:15] constantly improve. But yeah, the first few videos, they’re still out there. They’re pretty dreadful. I had like a, [00:07:20] uh, my first couple ones, I had like a little teleprompter thing that I’d read off. So I was very kind of stoic and not [00:07:25] very excitable. Wooden. Yeah. Wooden. Yeah. Um, but over time, I got a bit more confident in the way that I’ve always [00:07:30] been a decent speaker. But I got better over time.

Payman Langroudi: Do you not have, like, camera fright at all? [00:07:35] Surprisingly, no. Already over that. Yeah.

Faris: No, I never had that. Only because [00:07:40] I. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: As a child. Did you have social media and you and and, you know, you were making [00:07:45] content as a 14 year old.

Faris: No. Not really. I think the extent of anything that I produced [00:07:50] was like sending messages on BBM. I wasn’t doing anything exciting. It was more just [00:07:55] because. But I was always doing things where I was kind of like public speaking or doing speaking events, even [00:08:00] when I was younger. So when I was at sixth form, I do a lot of kind of speaking things, whether it’s on induction [00:08:05] days or talking to like a general assembly or whatever it is. It was never volunteering.

Payman Langroudi: For [00:08:10] stuff like that.

Faris: I was both volunteering and being nominated for it. But [00:08:15] again, I know it sounds kind of odd, but even when I was 16, when I was at sixth form, I was always thinking, what positions [00:08:20] can I take now to kind of like maximise my university applications? So I was like, house captain. I was leader of [00:08:25] the school council. I did a lot of random things to make sure that I unlocked more opportunities to [00:08:30] get myself out there. But where did that come from? Maybe it’s because, I don’t know. [00:08:35] Maybe. Maybe it’s because I’m Egyptian. Like, I know it sounds odd, but I was kind of instilled into me when I was quite young [00:08:40] with my parents that you’ve kind of got to work hard, you’ve got to make sure you stand out because nothing’s going to really be handed to [00:08:45] you. And if you can make a little bit of effort, it will go a long way. So I kind of saw how difficult [00:08:50] my parents had to work when they came from Egypt to the UK as doctors, and it puts [00:08:55] things into perspective, like you just kind of got to grind and get yourself out there, or else you’re going to be left [00:09:00] in the dust.

Payman Langroudi: And was it the kind of house where like, school grades were non-negotiable? [00:09:05]

Faris: Yes. And funnily enough, I didn’t have that much pressure [00:09:10] from my parents, only because we had like a little unwritten rule where they said, look, [00:09:15] as long as you get the grades, we don’t have any problems. And I was very fortunate I got the grades but.

Payman Langroudi: Let you [00:09:20] get on with it.

Faris: And then. Yeah, and they just let me get on with it. So even, even when I this is quite a funny story actually. [00:09:25] Even when I got my GCSE results, my parents didn’t even like my mum knew, but my dad didn’t even know I had my GCSE results. I went [00:09:30] to pick them up. I was like, oh, they’re pretty decent, cool. Next day. So it was. They [00:09:35] had a lot of trust in me, but that came from the values they instilled, which was like, you’ve got to work hard, [00:09:40] you’ve got to make sure you make yourself, you know, present in the space. Because if you don’t, you’re you’re going to be left in, [00:09:45] in the dust.

Payman Langroudi: Always fascinates me a lot is sometimes in a house. I [00:09:50] mean, you’ve got brothers and sisters.

Faris: No, it’s just me.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah. There’s sometimes in a house you got same parents, same [00:09:55] upbringing, and get one kid like you and another kid completely the opposite. And it’s [00:10:00] the same house. Yeah. And it fascinates me that, you know, what was it about [00:10:05] one that makes them go one way and the other? You’ve got this drive I can just talking to you just now. [00:10:10] Yeah. You’ve got this drive to succeed. And is it a deficit that [00:10:15] causes that? Mhm. Um, as a parent myself now. Yeah. My son just wants [00:10:20] to succeed. Yeah. Yeah. And puts a lot of pressure on himself, a lot of pressure on himself to succeed [00:10:25] and came out in a rash before his exams you know. Yeah. Um it’s fascinating man. So [00:10:30] then tell me about your time at King’s. What kind of a student were you?

Faris: I was an art student. [00:10:35] I think I was I was a student that did everything that needed [00:10:40] to be done and nothing more. In the sense of not, I didn’t work. I definitely worked hard, but passed [00:10:45] everything. I passed everything, I’d get things done, but I focussed on things that I thought were valuable. So, [00:10:50] for example, like in my third, fourth, fifth year, I realised that the most important thing is seeing patients. So, you know, I was [00:10:55] really good at making sure, finding out how do these patients get allocated, speaking to the people that, you know, bring [00:11:00] patients in and being like, look, I need to do more end nodes. I want to do more crown preps. What can I do? And I focus [00:11:05] more on improving my clinical work rather than stressing about my exam results because [00:11:10] I said, fortunately, I never had a bad situation with exams, but it was never the thing. I was, [00:11:15] you know, stressing over. It was more I want to see as many patients as possible. So when I get out there, I can do the stuff I [00:11:20] want to do, because I knew that anything I did at dental school doesn’t translate perfectly in real life anyway. So [00:11:25] get good at the basics. Once you learn how to do your crown prep at uni, you’re going to start learning [00:11:30] how to do your Emax onlays when you’re out there in real life. So that was all I focussed on when it came [00:11:35] to academia.

Payman Langroudi: And did you ever get that moment? I mean, one thing I worry about with my [00:11:40] son is like, he’s never really had a proper knock back. Mhm. And I [00:11:45] don’t know. Now he’s looking at Cambridge. Yeah. He’s going to turn up at Cambridge with all these high flyers. [00:11:50] Yeah. And he’s always been top of his class. Now he’s going to suddenly realise he’s just one of [00:11:55] the group. Yeah. And I worry, I worry about his first fail you know. Yeah. Whatever [00:12:00] that is. It could be I don’t know, his PhD or whatever it happens to be. [00:12:05] I worry about his first fail because nothing’s really gotten his way yet. Have you had your [00:12:10] first fail yet?

Faris: I think I’ve definitely failed multiple times over.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:12:15] say that what comes to mind when I say that? What’s what’s the biggest disappointment you had in yourself? [00:12:20]

Faris: I think probably one of the big disappointments I had, I know we talked about it is probably the YouTube channel [00:12:25] in the sense of, you know, something I was really dedicated to. I was doing a lot of work into it, really building it up. And [00:12:30] there’s a point where I kind of was taking on too much and neglected it, and as a result, I feel [00:12:35] that I really could have built that out to be a much bigger thing in the space. And now it’s something [00:12:40] that I need to spend a lot more time to, to build up. On top of that, there’s a bunch of other things that I think, you [00:12:45] know, could be better. Like I’ve tried to launch businesses in the past, launched completely failed. Yeah, yeah. [00:12:50] So kind.

Payman Langroudi: Of business.

Faris: So I initially tried to launch a business [00:12:55] to consolidate everything I’d learned, similar to what I’m doing now, but in the tutoring space. So [00:13:00] I wanted to set up a tutoring business, but my main kind of failure was the person I wanted to set it up with, [00:13:05] didn’t have the exact same vision, and I realised very quickly, okay, this isn’t really going to work, because [00:13:10] if you don’t have someone that’s thinking the same line, a line, and also people think that you have to be, you know, [00:13:15] exactly the same as a co-founder. It’s not true. Just you can be the opposite, but just be complementary. You [00:13:20] know, if you’re very analytical, they can be a little bit more creative. But what you don’t want to have is you have a [00:13:25] vision and they don’t see that vision and they don’t align with it. So that leads to failure. And [00:13:30] sometimes I do feel like, you know, one of the By-Products of taking on so many things is you don’t [00:13:35] get to enjoy as good of a social life. Maybe. So that was another thing that I think is maybe a failure, [00:13:40] and I focus on that more now when I’m trying to enjoy that I’m young, I can go out, I can do things that I enjoy, [00:13:45] and I don’t need to kind of punish myself for not working, which sometimes would be the way I’d [00:13:50] maintain things. I’d be like, I just have to. If I’m not working, what’s the point of doing anything else? Which is a daft [00:13:55] thing when I say it out loud, but it’s how I would think for a long time.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an important thing [00:14:00] around sort of sacrifice, right? Yeah, I felt it in the early stages of [00:14:05] enlightened, where I was only 28 when we started enlightened, and for [00:14:10] the first six years it was a totally difficult nightmare. Like near [00:14:15] death experiences. Every couple of weeks it felt like. And I’d look around [00:14:20] and I’d see my, my, you know, people who studied with me, buying a practice, buying [00:14:25] a Porsche. Yes. And I was the poorest I’d ever been. And, you know, in a business I had no idea [00:14:30] about. And this question of sacrifice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where do you see sacrifice? [00:14:35] I mean, what are you willing to do to get to where you want to get to? What are you willing to sacrifice [00:14:40] for me?

Faris: I think you have stages of life. So [00:14:45] when you’re young, you know, you’re, you know, we’re all young. But when you’re young, when you’re in your 20s or just before [00:14:50] you have to sacrifice, I always value it as when you’re really young, your time is worth nothing. [00:14:55] As you get older, it gets more valuable. You know you want to have kids. You want to do something. You want to get more, you know, involved with your [00:15:00] family life. When you’re young, you need to you need to sacrifice a lot if you want to get further in life. And for me, [00:15:05] I’m willing to sacrifice price a lot. Obviously, there’s a few things that are protected, like people that I [00:15:10] love, my friends and my family. But apart from that, you know, if it means I don’t get as much sleep or if it means I just have [00:15:15] to grind through work when I’m tired, I will do it. And that’s what I did in my final year of dental school, [00:15:20] I finished uni, I then go to work so I’d be uni like 9 to 5 or [00:15:25] 9 to 3, whatever it would be, and then I’d go straight to work in the evening at the company I was working at, which was say, [00:15:30] Tyco. So I was always really busy. I never really had time to to relax and [00:15:35] I was also studying for finals. So yeah, it was to answer it. In short, I’m willing to sacrifice [00:15:40] quite a lot. And I think it’s fine to say that, but you shouldn’t make those around you suffer too [00:15:45] much because at the end of the day, it’s not just you. You’ve got people around you that depend on you.

Payman Langroudi: So your job at [00:15:50] 32, we’ve had Sonja on a couple of times. Actually, the mind movers [00:15:55] hasn’t come out yet. We’ve had her on. Uh Dental. Leaders. How did that come about?

Faris: Yeah. [00:16:00]

Payman Langroudi: So that, first of all, just explain what fish taco is for someone who doesn’t know.

Faris: Yeah. So 32 [00:16:05] is a Dental clear aligner company. They specialise in three things. One is kind [00:16:10] of education, which is where they allow you to be educated. Improve your clear aligner practice. Two is they have [00:16:15] orthodontic support. So you have orthodontists there that help to curate treatment plans. And finally they have an [00:16:20] open marketplace where you can buy clear aligners and utilise them directly from manufacturer. [00:16:25] So that’s kind of the best way to to summarise it. The way I got into it was actually through a LinkedIn [00:16:30] message. So because I’d been doing all this social media stuff, I did some blog writing, the YouTube, etc. someone [00:16:35] that worked there wanted me to work on a freelancing basis to do some blog writing. [00:16:40]

Payman Langroudi: And we’re talking like two years ago this.

Faris: Was yeah, so this would have been my this would have been a year and a half [00:16:45] ago. Yeah, a year and a half to two years ago.

Payman Langroudi: So they were pretty young themselves.

Faris: Yeah. Yeah, they were pretty young. [00:16:50] It was pretty early. And from that conversation I had an interview. Obviously they wanted to check. I was, [00:16:55] you know, the real deal. And through that I realised this sounds like a cool company, that I want [00:17:00] to do something like this in the future. Why not just ask for a job? So in the interview just ask, can I work for you guys? They [00:17:05] said, what would you do? I said, I have marketing experience, I’ve done this, I’ve done this, I’ve done this. And through that, I [00:17:10] got offered a job, uh, in the beginning as essentially like a marketing person. [00:17:15] Yeah, it was it was a paid role. So I was an intern. But to start with your ability, like. Yeah, junior [00:17:20] marketing associate.

Payman Langroudi: And what were you actually doing?

Faris: So essentially I was helping [00:17:25] with the marketing front in terms of the blog writing. So they did a lot of LinkedIn posts. I learned very quickly [00:17:30] that I wasn’t as good at blog writing as I thought, which was really good to learn, like they had people there that were really intelligent. [00:17:35] Um, I then helped them a little bit with their content, like pushing out. So whether [00:17:40] it comes like brand images or setting up their podcast, I don’t know if it’s still active, but I know they set [00:17:45] up their own podcast to talk about the Dental space. Um, and then I realised very [00:17:50] quickly that I’ve kind of done what I want in the marketing space, and I want to do sales [00:17:55] instead. So then I went to them and said, look, hey, I want to do some sales. And then from that I trained up in sales [00:18:00] and worked in the sales kind of department instead.

Payman Langroudi: But what did that entail?

Faris: So that essentially [00:18:05] meant that I was in contact with dentists 1 to 1. So whether it’s calling them or [00:18:10] following up with people that have open accounts that haven’t, you know, submitted a case or ordered any clear aligners, [00:18:15] I’d be there to guide them through it, bring people into the company, tell them about what we do. Kind of discovery [00:18:20] calls setting up onboarding. And my metrics for success would essentially [00:18:25] be based on how many people converted to, you know, get clear aligners in the end. So I spoke [00:18:30] to thousands of dentists last year and the year before about the product. And that’s why [00:18:35] I kind of got very confident in understanding the space. Um, and I left that job [00:18:40] only because I built my own Start-Up now, and I don’t have as much time. But yeah, it was it was a [00:18:45] fantastic experience, to be honest with you.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, a brilliant company. And Sonia herself just. [00:18:50] I’m totally fascinated.

Faris: Yeah, she’s she’s brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: Fantastic leader. Yeah. And [00:18:55] a fast moving, like, venture backed. Yeah. Yeah. They went from nothing to [00:19:00] I think it’s like 70 employees now and it’s crazy three years or something.

Faris: It’s crazy.

Payman Langroudi: And when I think [00:19:05] about it’s been the last 24 years to get into this, to this size, um, a [00:19:10] different way of doing business. But what do you really what were the key things you learned? I mean, is that what sparked [00:19:15] your interest to start your own company?

Faris: Yes. So the concept of me starting my own company has always been there. [00:19:20] I’ve always wanted to do it, but I never. It’s kind of like seeing a career path as a dentist. [00:19:25] I find it very challenging because I describe it as like the golden cage, like you make just enough money as a dentist [00:19:30] where you’re going to live a good life. You know, you have what you like and you’re doing a job that’s, you know, generally quite enjoyable. [00:19:35] So for me, it was identifying if I’m going to build something, I really want to make sure it’s going to work. And [00:19:40] I also want to do that by seeing the steps it takes. So the most valuable insight I had at [00:19:45] 32 was one being surrounded by people that were much, much smarter than I was, and they were able to kind of [00:19:50] tell me how to do things. And, you know, I got to see the inner workings of a Start-Up. And specifically, [00:19:55] you know, Sonja, of course, she’s fantastic. And on top of that, it was getting an experience of what a Start-Up [00:20:00] is actually like. What does this mean? What’s the difference between a Start-Up and a small business? Or, you know, what’s the difference [00:20:05] between just registering a company for £12 and companies House? So I learnt a lot from that experience [00:20:10] and it was quite cool as well, because the sidemen recorded some of their videos in the place we used to work. So that was that was [00:20:15] a nice added benefit as well.

Payman Langroudi: And were you just working from you weren’t in the office a lot were you?

Faris: Um, [00:20:20] so I was in the office and I was also working from home. So because where, where [00:20:25] I was working wasn’t too far from my uni, it was like a bus and a train ride away. I’d sometimes go [00:20:30] in, in person, whether it’s the evenings or come in on my days off, and I work from the office, but [00:20:35] if I didn’t have to, I’d just go home and work from home.

Payman Langroudi: Get specific on it. Yeah. What specifically? [00:20:40] Yeah. What was like an aha moment for you when you were working there?

Faris: I think the specific [00:20:45] aha moment I had was when we were having a particularly tough month, things were going, [00:20:50] you know, weren’t going great. It was really difficult. And seeing how everyone kind of banded together and we had [00:20:55] a certain set of targets we had to hit in my head. I’m going to be very frank and I can say this now. I [00:21:00] was thinking, there’s no way we’re going to hit this. It just doesn’t make sense. Like, you know, our targets here and we’re currently [00:21:05] here but fails targets. Yeah. With a sales target. Um, but seeing how well we were banded together, [00:21:10] the strategy that I was employed and how, you know, important, having a fantastic team was really [00:21:15] inspired me to be like, okay, well, there’s some situations where I might have done projects in the past that [00:21:20] haven’t quite worked out. And there’s a really critical moment when you’re building anything where you realise, is [00:21:25] it because this is a rubbish idea, or is it just because I need to stick through this and pivot or do something a bit differently? [00:21:30] And I learned that kind of grit, tenacity and pushing through the difficult [00:21:35] parts at 32. And from that, that’s probably one of my big learnings as well, is sometimes [00:21:40] things aren’t going well, but if you have the right team and you have the right strategy, you can really push things to [00:21:45] go absolutely mental. And it doesn’t mean, you know, what’s the bottom line on making X amount of money for my business? [00:21:50] It might be well, is my team motivated? Do we know what we need to achieve? Are we growing? There’s so many other metrics [00:21:55] of success that you can measure. So I learnt a lot working at those who go.

Payman Langroudi: Into it a bit more. Right. [00:22:00] So yeah, so we had this situation where sales are down here, the targets up there. Yeah. So what do they [00:22:05] do. They said oh we, they work back and say well we need this many new customers. That means we need [00:22:10] to make that many calls.

Faris: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So is that the kind of it was.

Faris: Very it was very data driven. [00:22:15] I’d say it was very data driven. So you’d kind of look at your analytics. Okay. Well, Faris, you’ve spoken to, you [00:22:20] know, 50 dentists this month. How many of those have actually converted? Okay. You’ve got like, let’s say one. It [00:22:25] wasn’t one, but let’s say there’s one. We need to get that number up to ten. What things have you done so far? What’s worked. What hasn’t [00:22:30] worked? Okay. Let’s double down on the things that have worked. Okay? Let’s bring someone from another department. Hey, marketing, why don’t we do [00:22:35] this instead? To try and improve the number of dentists that are coming from this, you know, Avenue. So it got [00:22:40] very. It was it was so interesting to see how granular you can get. And I think it comes from that concept of [00:22:45] like improving 1%. If you can prove little things, they start to stack up very quickly. Um, but [00:22:50] to get even more specific, it got to a point where, you know, everyone just kind of banded in. So it doesn’t matter if your [00:22:55] sales, if you’re marketing, getting involved and trying to put your input in to say, okay, this is how we can [00:23:00] improve this. You’ve said that this is working. Let’s really, really get specific and do more of that, [00:23:05] less of this and experiment what. So it was.

Payman Langroudi: Just give me a sample.

Faris: Give me some [00:23:10] more. So.

Payman Langroudi: So to get the right kind of dentist to come in and.

Faris: Also [00:23:15] to identify those, it’s kind of like leads, right. You’ve got people that are cold. You have people that are warm, people that are hot. Identifying [00:23:20] what it takes to get people through that funnel to go from the main thing that it was, was actually [00:23:25] the way that we were following up with people. So we were doing this thing where we were just sending emails or we were sending the [00:23:30] communications we were sending weren’t great. And we realised really quickly that dentists are very kind of time poor. Like they [00:23:35] want to be talked to at specific times. They want to be talked to in a specific way. So we developed a new script. We started [00:23:40] calling people at lunch and after work at specific times, and we started seeing a much better improvement. On [00:23:45] top of that, we just made things a lot easier. So, for example, there was a stage where for them to register [00:23:50] their aligners or register with one of our labs, it was really tedious. They had.

Payman Langroudi: The friction [00:23:55] in that reduced.

Faris: Friction like significantly, and we saw a much bigger conversion. So instead [00:24:00] of having to be first, you need to convert one person on average they can. Getting one case through it went to [00:24:05] I might convert two people, but they’re now averaging 2 to 3 cases because we made it so easy for them that they’re just doing [00:24:10] it now. So that is the type of stuff that I like. Sometimes it’s not that the product is bad, it’s [00:24:15] just you’re not making it easy enough for that person to do it. Like, um, there was a situation this [00:24:20] was with 32 kills with my company where we had a button that wasn’t working to register, and we [00:24:25] were like, why? Why is the registration down this week? And then we went and we used the site that that was the it was just something like [00:24:30] we thought it was, oh, our marketing’s rubbish or we’ve done this like actually no, just focus, find what the problem [00:24:35] is and also just changed the way I thought a lot. I got, I got really data specific about everything [00:24:40] that I do. So everything. Now if something fails I don’t get stressed. I’m like, okay, it’s failed. Why has it failed? [00:24:45] Let’s work out. Let’s work on the problem solving. Yeah, you’ve got to solve. That’s all Start-Ups are just you [00:24:50] have to put out fires left, right and centre. And if you don’t, well, Start-Ups die [00:24:55] all the time, don’t they? Like most Start-Ups fail if you’re not putting out. If you’re not putting out fires, and you don’t learn [00:25:00] how to problem solve quickly and get very creative, you will not survive. So you have to do that.

Payman Langroudi: And, [00:25:05] you know, in a way, it’s the only advantage of Start-Ups got is that nimbleness right?

Faris: And [00:25:10] speed is.

Payman Langroudi: Speed critical, you know, especially when you’re going up against some of the biggest companies in the [00:25:15] industry, right? Yeah. All right. Let’s talk about always. Sure. I mean, I’m [00:25:20] just just imagining your life at this period where you’ve got finals. At the end of the day, you’re working [00:25:25] on 32 coats.

Faris: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I just can’t imagine that. I can’t imagine when I had finals, it was [00:25:30] all encapsulated for me and I felt, yeah. So [00:25:35] yeah, it’s busy. Well, well, actually, before we go on to, I guess you qualified. Yeah. [00:25:40] And then you’re looking for a job.

Faris: Yeah. So I qualified. So thankfully I passed my finals. [00:25:45] Um, which was a surprise to me as well, But so past finals, um, and then it was just [00:25:50] finding my placement so where I wanted to work. So I also got married last year, which was, you know, fantastic. But it was [00:25:55] really busy. And my wife, she’s a doctor, so I was trying to find a place where she’d be able to have her placement [00:26:00] and I wouldn’t be too far away. So we ended up going to the Buckinghamshire scheme. So I’m placed currently [00:26:05] in the Buckinghamshire Thames Valley scheme, where I do my training.

Payman Langroudi: So you [00:26:10] knew she was there. So that’s why you aimed that direction.

Faris: And also it was brilliant. The scheme [00:26:15] is fantastic. I’ve had a great time and from my friends that are in the London scheme, it can be a little bit, you know, a bit more intense. Like [00:26:20] London is.

Payman Langroudi: Intense. How did you feel the first day when you went into that surgery? Because I remember the first [00:26:25] day of thinking, what the hell is this, man? Yeah, I was I was really, [00:26:30] like, sad about it because I don’t know. I don’t know what I thought I was getting myself into. Yeah, [00:26:35] but the practice was and by the way, the guy was a forward thinking, great boss. Yeah, [00:26:40] but just the whole NHS system, just what we were in. I was probably disillusioned. [00:26:45] How did you feel?

Faris: I thought it was tough because you don’t get [00:26:50] any exposure to Udhas or how to interact with patients at university. [00:26:55] It’s all very, you know, coddled. And you’re, you know, you’ve got your tutor there, someone’s there to help. Let’s check every step [00:27:00] of, oh, you’ve opened the tooth. You’ve taken the calories out. When I got into practice, I [00:27:05] realised that, yeah, I have support from my ES who’s great, but you are on your own. Like you’re the [00:27:10] person responsible. You’ve got the doctor and your GDC number for a reason. Um, so yeah, it was it [00:27:15] was definitely a challenge in the beginning. Not because I found it particularly challenging with the treatment, [00:27:20] but I found it challenging to manage everything in terms of, okay, well, this is how I want to communicate with my patients. And [00:27:25] at the back of my mind, just to be really frank, I’m thinking this isn’t the optimal option. Like, I’d [00:27:30] rather do this, but that’s private. So it’s it was it was a bit disheartening [00:27:35] because sometimes you feel like you can’t do the work you want to do. Um, but I still pride myself on [00:27:40] doesn’t matter. I’m still going to do the best I possibly can with the resources I have. So I never [00:27:45] make excuses. I’m not going to, you know, just put some fissure sealant and send them on the way. I’m still going to do the treatment. Yeah. But [00:27:50] yeah. No it was. Yeah, it was, it was, it was a bit of a rude awakening. When you’re in practice, you’re realising how [00:27:55] challenging it can be for patients to deal with the setbacks of the NHS. [00:28:00]

Payman Langroudi: And I’m not I’m not up to date with it anymore. But like, how many patients a day do you see now?

Faris: Um, [00:28:05] it’s not too many coming.

Payman Langroudi: To the end of your.

Faris: Yeah, yeah. So I’d say like the average I’d probably say 15, [00:28:10] probably 15, 20 I don’t. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So how about at the beginning. They start the.

Faris: Beginning. [00:28:15]

Payman Langroudi: It’s like 4 or 5. Yeah.

Faris: 4 or 5. You know you got your lovely hour long appointments you can do like, [00:28:20] um, but you learn very quickly.

Payman Langroudi: Is it still the same that one day a week you go for.

Faris: Yeah. You have a [00:28:25] study day. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which was, for me fun. I enjoyed it was good.

Faris: It was good. I liked I loved my [00:28:30] sunny days even. Pretty brilliant. Like, um, we have ours really close to where I work. Anyway, [00:28:35] anyway, so it was. Yeah, they’re great because you get to learn, you get to meet interesting dentists, and you get to meet the rest of [00:28:40] your kind of cohort so you don’t feel like you’re alone when you’re complaining about, oh, I did this treatment [00:28:45] and it failed someone else, like, oh, I did the same thing. And you know, it’s fine.

Payman Langroudi: You know, the the next job. [00:28:50] Yeah, is actually much more isolating. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Faris: I’ve heard it’s very lonely. [00:28:55]

Payman Langroudi: You’re literally there by yourself and there’s no one to talk to. And so. And and everyone’s expecting [00:29:00] you just to do the job. And I remember my nurse being I mean, Leslie, if you’re out there, was [00:29:05] the one who was telling me, hey, the previous guy used to do this in this situation. And, and, [00:29:10] you know, it turned out I wasn’t doing any indirect. I was just doing fillings. And she was [00:29:15] saying, well, he would have done it only there where he did that filling, you know, just just that. Yeah. Of [00:29:20] course in those days there wasn’t, you know, the internet. So yeah Yeah.

Faris: It’s. Yeah, it’s a very [00:29:25] different. I have so many patients come in now like speaking about things very specifically like, oh, I want to get online or [00:29:30] I want whitening or I want some crown.

Payman Langroudi: At Dental IQs. Right up. Yeah.

Faris: Wow. Way higher, way higher. [00:29:35] You know, I have people ask me about survival rates of certain treatments. Okay. Um, so you.

Payman Langroudi: At [00:29:40] that point now where you’re applying for real jobs. Yeah, yeah.

Faris: I am, so I should be working in kind of [00:29:45] like the London Essex area hopefully this coming year. Mixed practice and in September. [00:29:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Faris: September. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got a job ready.

Faris: Yeah I do, I do yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you know where it is.

Faris: Yeah I know I’m gonna [00:29:55] be, yeah it’s gonna be Essex. Oh yeah yeah. So you know I know the area really well. I was raised [00:30:00] there most of my life, so it’s where I wanted to stay for the long term as well.

Payman Langroudi: So people [00:30:05] underestimate knowing the area. Oh, it’s.

Faris: So.

Payman Langroudi: Important. It’s so important. So important. I remember [00:30:10] I was working in Kent. Yeah. And my boss was this old timer. [00:30:15] Like he’d gone private in 1963. Oh, wow. Imagine. Yeah. [00:30:20] And, uh, this guy was just a master with patience. Yeah, [00:30:25] an absolute master. And sometimes I’d be shadowing him. I’d watch him and he’d say something [00:30:30] to the patient and go, what the hell did he just say to that patient? I just couldn’t believe it. Yeah, and the patient [00:30:35] would rip laugh, roaring laugh. And you come to realise here that when you’re from [00:30:40] the area, you know the people? Yeah. There’s a there’s a connection that people take for granted. [00:30:45] Like if I came to Essex and tried to do that job and you’re there [00:30:50] and she says, I’ve just been to so and so’s shopping centre, you know what that place is. Yeah. [00:30:55] Just just that fact.

Faris: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: 100% particular words people use in particular locations. [00:31:00] Those nuances are what? Cause, you know, like trust with with a patient. Yeah. [00:31:05] Let’s talk about your lives now. Sure. Tell me the story.

Faris: Yeah. [00:31:10] So whistle stop tour. So again, as you know, I did the social media stuff in [00:31:15] the medical and dental admission space. So getting kids into dental medical school from that. I then [00:31:20] started building it out with, you know, trying to do like webinars and free content. And then I realised [00:31:25] over the years that I’d get the same question like hundreds of times a year. I just [00:31:30] kept students messaging me the same thing and I realised, well, I can keep answering. I actually had it on my notes app, like an Instagram [00:31:35] message template where I just copy and paste it. But I said, well, now we have AI, let’s [00:31:40] leverage this and use it to solve this problem, which is students don’t know how to get the right resources. [00:31:45] Interview prep is difficult and it’s expensive. You can have kids paying hundreds and hundreds of [00:31:50] pounds to get tutored on something that shouldn’t really be that expensive. So [00:31:55] then I started exploring what can I do? I looked into AI. I realised I’m an idiot. I don’t know anything about computer science or [00:32:00] how to build a software product. So I then looked to find someone that could build it for me. So typically [00:32:05] in the tech space, you go to places abroad, so you might hire like a development team in [00:32:10] India, Vietnam, etc. to build it out, but you don’t have as much control. So I just went to a bunch of founders [00:32:15] events, met some people that would be interested in building it with me, and from that experience, I met [00:32:20] my co-founder, Angelina, who is the Chief Technical officer. So she builds all the software for [00:32:25] the for the product. And from then we’ve just been building AIS for about a year and a bit now. Um, wait, [00:32:30] wait.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s rewind. Yeah, I went to a bunch of founders events. Yeah. What are.

Faris: They? So [00:32:35] essentially, it’s a place where you meet people that are [00:32:40] interested in building a Start-Up, but they typically with a Start-Up, you kind of have like a [00:32:45] two main roles that you want filled in the beginning in the founder role, which is someone that’s like a CEO. [00:32:50] So that can deal with like the marketing, the placement, the sales, the vision of the company and a CTO [00:32:55] who is the person that’s going to build the technical side of the company. So typically they’ll have a computer science, software engineering [00:33:00] background. So at these founders events, it’s a good place for you to meet people that are like [00:33:05] minded and are looking to build something, but they’re just trying to find the right match.

Payman Langroudi: Are you literally googling founders events? [00:33:10]

Faris: Yeah. Founders events. Um, this specific one was actually like an online zoom kind of session [00:33:15] thing, which I found on an app called slack, which is like, yeah, like a professional [00:33:20] discord or like whatever, like zoom. And through that I met Angelina because I pitched [00:33:25] my idea. She liked it and we started talking about it.

Payman Langroudi: So was that the setup that. Yeah, literally the CEO and the CTOs [00:33:30] were sort of pitching themselves.

Faris: Yeah, yeah. In a way, it was it wasn’t even directly CEO, CTO. It was just people saying [00:33:35] what they do, what they’re interested in. And then you naturally, you naturally kind of blend together and [00:33:40] see if you know, you’d be a good match. And luckily we were I interviewed a few other people, like the way I’d screen was I’d just [00:33:45] send them like a task like, hey, build this out for me, and I’d see how good it was, like build on it. So [00:33:50] the task I’d set them was just build a web page that can record video and [00:33:55] store the video. That’s what I wanted. I wanted something really basic and just design a really basic page. [00:34:00] So that was the task and I would just compare.

Payman Langroudi: I think now you can just tell ChatGPT, yeah, probably just do it for [00:34:05] you. Yeah, yeah.

Faris: The thing is with ChatGPT can do it for you. It’s about where the data [00:34:10] gets stored and how you handle it. That’s where it gets challenging. Um, and Angelina was the person that did it the best. Like. [00:34:15]

Payman Langroudi: What did the past the best?

Faris: Yeah. Yeah, she was brilliant. Like, she was leagues ahead of everyone else that even [00:34:20] tried.

Payman Langroudi: But then also the the fit. I mean, before you were talking about the [00:34:25] vision being the same. Yeah. What is it about her? Okay, okay. She knows how to use a computer. Yeah, [00:34:30] yeah, but what is it about her that aligns with your outlook like your basic principles? [00:34:35] Yeah.

Faris: So it was kind of the alignment of how I think and [00:34:40] how the company needs to be built, which is going to be, you know, grit and is going to be resourcefulness. Those are two [00:34:45] things that we value really highly. So with her, she’s fantastic. She didn’t go to university. She actually did an [00:34:50] apprenticeship in the computer science space, levelled up really quickly, worked at a big bank [00:34:55] in New York and is now a senior software engineer. And she’s only 2223. So she’s [00:35:00] she comes from that background of really hustling. She also worked at a charitable organisation that helped youth [00:35:05] get into competitive jobs and careers. So she has a bit of experience in that space. So it was [00:35:10] a pretty perfect pairing up where she was really kind of young, tenacious, knew what [00:35:15] she wanted. I was in the same spot and it just made sense to just go all in.

Payman Langroudi: And is it just the two of you? [00:35:20]

Faris: It’s just two of us. We have a few people working as interns that do kind of our marketing and some of the blog writing, [00:35:25] but we do most of the the main work and finance. So [00:35:30] we raised money from an accelerator in America called Techstars. So [00:35:35] that was a six figure round. And we basically used that to help build out the product, [00:35:40] bringing new people in. Hopefully this year as we look to expand, um, into new markets, what.

Payman Langroudi: Was [00:35:45] what was that process?

Faris: So that was a lot of interviews and a lot of rejection. If you’re asking [00:35:50] actually about failure, I should have mentioned that we got rejected so many times. It was a different incubator. Yeah. [00:35:55] Oh my God. It was very painful. Like, okay, so.

Payman Langroudi: Look, I’ve given this advice to a bunch [00:36:00] of people that, you know, they say, here’s my business idea. And I’m like, go find an incubator. Yeah. So [00:36:05] what did you do? Why? America? I mean, did you just Google health tech incubators? What did what happened? [00:36:10]

Faris: So this was so textile is a bit different from some incubators when When you have an idea, you’ve not built anything. We apply to [00:36:15] an accelerator. So Horace had a little bit of a basic MVP like minimum product. Minimum viable product. [00:36:20] Um, so the way we applied would be. Yeah, Google. So we just googled a bunch of different places. So [00:36:25] everyone knows, like Y Combinator, which is one of the biggest ones. There’s also Techstars, there’s one called neo. [00:36:30] There’s a few in the UK like entrepreneur. First you’d send a big application in, you’d do a few interviews [00:36:35] if you got lucky and then you’d get accepted or rejected and the.

Payman Langroudi: Application knowing what [00:36:40] to send. Yes. So Google that.

Faris: Google. Honestly, it was all in Google. And YouTube [00:36:45] for me has been half of my life has been like learning things on YouTube. So we just went on YouTube. So there’s plenty.

Payman Langroudi: Of resource [00:36:50] about.

Faris: That. So many resources. It is tough though. I have to be frank. It’s tough, especially because a lot of [00:36:55] these places look at your background. So when I was applying, I was 22 and I was 21. You know, [00:37:00] we obviously we’d done stuff, but we don’t have like PhDs in computer science or like a, you [00:37:05] know, ten years experience. So we had to supplement that with what things that we’ve done and what [00:37:10] vision we had and the kind of, you know, the modelling of the product and how big it can get. That was [00:37:15] what made us stand out. We were really clear. And on top of that, we had a brilliant founder fit. So even as [00:37:20] I describe it now, a lot of the things that we built independently of each other and things we’ve done fit really well. [00:37:25] Me working in the education space, Angelina working in the charity space, helping people get in made [00:37:30] so much sense to, you know, tech stars at least to bring us on. But yeah, it was a lot of rejection. [00:37:35] We had a lot of people say no to how many like I think we applied to [00:37:40] ten, 20 different like incubators, accelerators. Bear in mind though, a lot of them also we applied to that. [00:37:45] We we knew we wouldn’t get them, but it was just for the experience. Yeah. Um, so ones like neo which take like the [00:37:50] top, they put, uh, you get 3% equity about like 600 K investment. [00:37:55] So they go for like massive billion dollar companies. But we just thought let’s apply. I like to learn from failure. [00:38:00] And yeah we learned a lot. And we got ours in America because we want to expand into [00:38:05] the American market. So we thought it would make sense to spend some time in the States and get some experience there. [00:38:10] And it did work out pretty well.

Payman Langroudi: So you send off a bunch of applications, you get a bunch of [00:38:15] immediate rejections, not immediate.

Faris: We got like a so we had a few immediate, but a lot of them, we’d [00:38:20] get into the second stage where they liked the idea and some a lot of them now don’t do interviews. They’ll just do [00:38:25] okay. More details about you and your company, some CVS, etc. and then you go into interviews. So typically [00:38:30] you’ll have about 3 to 10 rounds of interviews depending on the accelerator. And each stage you [00:38:35] get filtered down more and more and more.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me about the interview.

Faris: So how many.

Payman Langroudi: Of them [00:38:40] are.

Faris: Yeah. So with Techstars specifically, I think it starts off as [00:38:45] you send the application, your first interview is them getting to know you as founders, because Techstars is early on like [00:38:50] founders fit. They ask us a lot about our backgrounds, how we met, what our experiences were, [00:38:55] and then after that, the next stage is speaking to the managing director of the scheme. So that’s usually someone [00:39:00] that’s very accomplished. Has sold their company for X billions and they want to kind of probe a bit more into, [00:39:05] you know, what you want to get out of the the accelerator or incubator y you’re applying to. What are you going to [00:39:10] benefit from just doing it yourself?

Payman Langroudi: And is your application saying how much money you’re after? [00:39:15]

Faris: It’s not saying how much money you’re after, because the amount of money that you get is based on the the [00:39:20] accelerator you apply to. So you kind of know beforehand what the terms are and you apply [00:39:25] based on that.

Payman Langroudi: So you knew, for instance, at Techstars that it was in the region of 150,000. [00:39:30] Exactly. Us. Right?

Faris: Yeah, yeah, that’s what we knew from the from the beginning. And [00:39:35] then after that you had the final interview. So we had 3 or 4.

Payman Langroudi: So what are the questions? What kind [00:39:40] of things do they ask.

Faris: The questions would be things like firstly really basic things like tell us a bit about [00:39:45] yourself. Why is your company going to succeed. Why would you why why is your company any good? [00:39:50] The most common one you generally get is why are you going to win? Which is basically why are [00:39:55] you, as founders, the right people to build this? What if you know Joe Bloggs off the streets, decides, oh, I want to build [00:40:00] an AI into your app? Um, so it was questions like that, and I guess the most challenging ones will look [00:40:05] at if you don’t get this money, what would you do? So what’s your plan? How are you going to build this out without us? What [00:40:10] things do you need? What products are you going to be to.

Payman Langroudi: That would you say?

Faris: Well, we told them we bootstrap, [00:40:15] which means that we just take money from our from. So I had some money saved up. And also did we put our own money into it and build it [00:40:20] out. And also we’re very scrappy. So we build things as cheaply as possible and [00:40:25] push it out to test. And then we put money into it. So that’s how we’ve built the product out. And [00:40:30] I guess one of the other big questions is essentially around the whole concept of you’re probably going [00:40:35] to fail. It’s the reality. How are you going to ensure that doesn’t happen? That’s the biggest thing you [00:40:40] always get asked. So that comes into your modelling like your financial modelling, your business plan, what [00:40:45] exactly the market is saying right now? How big is the market? Is it even worth investing in. And that’s where you have [00:40:50] to know your numbers really well and put yourself out there.

Payman Langroudi: And you have to sell $1 million dream. [00:40:55]

Faris: Right? Essentially, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The bigger, the bigger the thing you sell, the more they’re interested, right?

Faris: And especially [00:41:00] when you’re applying to accelerators in America. And this is what we learned from working in America. Everyone’s very kind of, [00:41:05] you know, they really believe in their product, even if they’re in debt. Even if the product is failing, you might speak to them and [00:41:10] it’s like, oh my God, this is going to be the next Facebook. So you need to, you know, you have to have that that strong [00:41:15] confidence and enthusiasm to get through. And we’re a bit more British. We’re a little bit more modest, like, oh yeah, yeah, we’re [00:41:20] going to do quite well because we’ve looked at this as this, but you learn to really believe in your vision and your dream. [00:41:25]

Payman Langroudi: So then of the did you have more than one offer?

Faris: So [00:41:30] actually we this was the one offer that was most exciting to us in terms of the ones we applied [00:41:35] to. This was the one. This was the one that we got accepted at was Techstars. Um, the only other [00:41:40] one we were considering realistically would have been Y Combinator. But there was one [00:41:45] issue which was obviously I was doing my part here, so if I wanted to do that, I would have had to leave dentistry completely [00:41:50] and I wasn’t going to. Yeah. And I wasn’t quite willing to do that. So that was one thing as well to bear in mind [00:41:55] for anyone applying to accelerators, you’re going to have a higher rejection rate if you’re not working on it full time. So [00:42:00] we were quite lucky that we found an accelerator that believed in our vision and believed that we’d be able to get the results even if [00:42:05] I wasn’t there full time, you know, in America.

Payman Langroudi: So what [00:42:10] happens next? They give you the money?

Faris: Yeah. So they give you the money.

Payman Langroudi: Do they get.

Faris: So they get [00:42:15] a percentage of the way that ours works is a bit differently. So they get their equity on the next [00:42:20] round that gets raised. So essentially.

Payman Langroudi: If another round doesn’t get raised then.

Faris: Yeah. Then there’s a very small [00:42:25] amount of equity that they get. But it’s it’s not significant. Yeah. And they raise it as a [00:42:30] essentially it’s it’s more as how do I explain it in a way that’s so it’s more like [00:42:35] based on the future value of the company. Yeah. So it’s not based on the current value. And they [00:42:40] typically will also take interest on the money that’s given. Because I’m Muslim, [00:42:45] I then talk to them about how we don’t really deal with interest, not something I’m comfortable with. So we actually manage to get ours [00:42:50] as interest free. So luckily we’ve got that money and we don’t we don’t pay any interest on it. So yeah, it [00:42:55] was quite an exciting day when I saw like a bunch of cash just being deposited into our like [00:43:00] business account. It was a pretty sweet now.

Payman Langroudi: So they now own what percentage of your company? [00:43:05]

Faris: Um, so it’s not very much. Let’s say it’s I said it really depends on the next round, but you [00:43:10] can put it between the realms of 3 to 6%, something like that.

Payman Langroudi: So then the next round comes along. Yeah. Someone invest [00:43:15] £10 million. Yeah. They now have 3 to 6% of. Yeah. So they’ll [00:43:20] take that valuation.

Faris: Yeah. Yeah yeah. So it’s dependent on how big the next round is. So [00:43:25] the smaller your next round is the worst. You want to make sure that your company is seen as more valuable. Typically, in the Start-Up world, [00:43:30] you want to continuously go upwards. If you raise a down round, it’s pretty much seen as your company is not doing [00:43:35] very well. But the way that things are going now, we’re not in any dire need to raise a lot of money, which [00:43:40] is good because our products are not really expensive to run. And because I have Angelina in house, I don’t have to [00:43:45] spend the. Usually the biggest expense for a tech product is the development team, but I’m [00:43:50] very lucky that I have most of that in house. So Angelina is fantastic at building all of that out, and it saves us a lot of money [00:43:55] in the long run.

Payman Langroudi: But what is your runway? I mean, have you are you have you got that in your mind? So [00:44:00] I will run out of money by such and such date.

Faris: Yeah, I’d say I run my own. Honestly, it’s [00:44:05] going to really highly depend on this next phase of the business. If we kept going as things are, our runways like [00:44:10] 2 to 4 years, it’s quite. You’re spending like, we’re not really spending very much. You know, we’re in a pretty [00:44:15] good spot with this new market, though. If we do decide to go into the much bigger job seeking [00:44:20] market, which is what we’re doing, we would most likely need to start looking into bringing in the development team and bringing in some more people [00:44:25] to accelerate the speed of the the product. And also, if I do decide to go into it full [00:44:30] time, which I’m not planning to do at the moment, like, you know, salaries and things like that, that you’d have to start supplementing. [00:44:35]

Payman Langroudi: And it sounds exciting, but at the same time it sounds difficult. [00:44:40] It’s very difficult to be a dentist. Yeah, yeah it is.

Faris: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like to have a full time job and. Yeah, [00:44:45] this it is.

Faris: It’s tough.

Payman Langroudi: Is that what you’re planning? Five days a week is then. Um. No, I’m.

Faris: Not doing five days. I’ll probably do [00:44:50] four days, which is my plan for this year. And it’s going to be working on all [00:44:55] eyes on the other all the other time. But yeah, my time even now is quite packed up. You know, it’s busy, [00:45:00] but you’ve kind of got to work it out as you go along. There’s other things at stake here, like, I [00:45:05] don’t want to completely leave the industry. It’s still a career I love. But at the same time, if this picks up, then maybe down the line, [00:45:10] it’s something I decide I want to focus all my energy on.

Payman Langroudi: Well, my advice here on [00:45:15] in this sort of thing is I’ve done it. I’ve done one day a week, I’ve done two days a week. I’ve [00:45:20] done them all. Yeah. Um, and, you know, we started this while I was still a dentist. Yeah. Yeah. [00:45:25] I feel like if you’ve got another thing. Yeah. Two days a week of dentistry [00:45:30] is career, right? Okay. If you haven’t got another thing, three days a week [00:45:35] of dentistry is correct. Mhm. Yeah. And it’s, it sounds ridiculous because. Yeah I haven’t mentioned four [00:45:40] and five days yet, but there’s a massive difference between two days a week and three days a week [00:45:45] really interestingly for me. But when I was working three days a week as a dentist I felt like I was [00:45:50] being a dentist. Yeah, yeah, everything else was, was supplemental. Whereas when I was working [00:45:55] two days a week as a dentist, I felt like dentistry was the hobby. Yeah. And I could [00:46:00] focus on this as it happened at the time, was writing. Yeah. And I [00:46:05] don’t know that it makes sense yet because you’re so inexperienced as a dentist. Yeah, but [00:46:10] I’d consider it because if this plan is going somewhere. Yeah, [00:46:15] four days a week is dentist.

Faris: Yeah. It’s tough. I know, I know, I know, it’s going.

Payman Langroudi: To be Angelina. [00:46:20] How many days a week is she going to work?

Faris: Yeah, it’s probably similar, but like that.

Payman Langroudi: Needs to be a lot.

Faris: As [00:46:25] well.

Payman Langroudi: Like, you know, even if, even if she’s the loveliest saintly person [00:46:30] and she says, listen, I don’t mind, you go off being in the end, that will be a problem. Yeah.

Faris: No, it’s true, it’s true. It’s [00:46:35] something we’ve had conversations about. It’s something that we’ve planned for. This year will be quite pivotal because obviously we’re [00:46:40] going into a much bigger market and we’re changing the way that we’re we’re we’re let’s.

Payman Langroudi: Talk about let’s talk about products. So [00:46:45] you you say you train an AI model. Yeah. To help people with interviews. [00:46:50] Mhm. And now you’re saying to help people with getting jobs. Yes. What [00:46:55] does it what does it mean to train an AI model. How does it how just talk me through the basics of that.

Faris: Yeah. So [00:47:00] starting from the very beginning people think of AI. Right now I think of ChatGPT and they think of, you [00:47:05] know, Bard and all these different things. When you’re building an AI product, you’re going to have an AI [00:47:10] base. So a large language model like ChatGPT, and then you want to then build your own data [00:47:15] sets to make it more specific. So we have our own custom data sets, our own custom kind of machine learning [00:47:20] that’s been built by Angelina. That makes our AI feedback very specific to particular [00:47:25] interview style questions. Um, and right now, the power in how the product works is [00:47:30] the data. So the way we use that is we’ve got lots of hours of kind of communication and talks [00:47:35] and, you know, interview questions that we’ve had from this last year and that goes into improving the AI model. And [00:47:40] that comes from a mix of us vetting it ourselves. So, you know, to be able to label things, okay, this is good. This is [00:47:45] bad. And also the AI working quite hard at being able to analyse that data in very [00:47:50] large chunks. Um, and.

Payman Langroudi: Then you test it by asking questions and seeing if the answer [00:47:55] makes sense to you.

Faris: Exactly. You have to. There’s a lot of testing and even then, look, I, I [00:48:00] say this like, you know, I know AI is going to tell us, but AI is stupid in a lot of things. There’s a lot of things that it doesn’t do very well. [00:48:05] So you need to kind of fine tune and get a little, you know, ticks and crosses so that it knows that this is good [00:48:10] and this is bad because it is brilliant. But if anyone’s used ChatGPT especially like when you’re [00:48:15] trying to, you know, write a script or do blog writing, etc., there’s still little bits that you need to add a human [00:48:20] touch and element to, and that’s where building a company like this works really well. So.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:48:25] know, my understanding talking to founders is that right now it’s a very difficult [00:48:30] time to raise cash.

Faris: Very difficult.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Although they say unless you’re in AI or you’re in healthcare. [00:48:35]

Faris: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which is lovely because you’re in both AI and healthcare in a way. Right. But this, this [00:48:40] thing that you’re doing, which is kind of building your own vertical, um, based on your data. [00:48:45] Yeah. Is that is that a very common thing that, I mean, it must be, right. People must be doing [00:48:50] AI versions of stuff for lots of different industries.

Faris: It’s a it’s a good [00:48:55] business model if you have your moat, which is what’s going to protect you from someone else building the [00:49:00] same thing. So for us, our moat is the amount of time we put into it the experience that we have in the industry and [00:49:05] also the data that we have. Yeah. Is that like.

Payman Langroudi: Is that a question they’re asking you?

Faris: Yeah, you have to you have [00:49:10] to be ready for it because it’s investors, you know, especially when you start pitching things. They don’t know [00:49:15] anything about your product, but they’re they’re looking at it as, you know, what dollar signs and pound signs [00:49:20] they want to see. How much money can I get out of this company. So you need to be able to answer any question whether it winds [00:49:25] you up, whether you like it, whether you don’t, so that you can prove that, you know, we are a winnable product. We’re going to win because [00:49:30] of this, this and this. Um, but yeah, it’s challenging. It’s challenging if you.

Payman Langroudi: Identify data [00:49:35] sets that you’d love to get your hands on. Yeah.

Faris: You can buy data sets as well. Yeah. You can. [00:49:40] Yeah. You can definitely buy.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of data set would it be that you’re after.

Faris: So you can have things like sentiment [00:49:45] analysis. So you can have things where it’s had data. Um, that’s looked at I don’t know, like [00:49:50] the, the way the certain words that come up in strong interview candidates [00:49:55] or weak interview candidates, or you can buy data sets that are able to identify how many times [00:50:00] someone says, um, in a natural sense or whatever it’s going to be, so you can buy that stuff online. Obviously [00:50:05] it’s not cheap, and then it makes you more generic. If you’re buying something that’s not custom made for your [00:50:10] base. That’s why we decided we need to build us. And that’s why, I mean, about the way that the philosophy of the [00:50:15] company is you build first. Like, we don’t worry if we build something and it’s it breaks and it doesn’t work [00:50:20] because we know that we’re trying to just be as quick as possible, be scrappy, be, you know, be [00:50:25] as adaptable as you can. If you don’t do that, you’re going to be dead in the water. No one’s going to want to invest [00:50:30] in your company, and your company will die very quickly in the tech space at least.

Payman Langroudi: So the interview one, [00:50:35] it listens to the way you talk. Yes. The number of times you’re coming and eyeing. [00:50:40] Yeah. And the content of what you’re saying. Exactly.

Faris: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And so is it ready now? [00:50:45] Because it’s ready now. Go on it right now.

Faris: And you could go on it right now. Yeah. You can.

Payman Langroudi: Use livestock.

Faris: Or Isai. [00:50:50] It’s the same name as a company, the same URL. Um, and you can use it and you can practice with it and [00:50:55] do different questions. Right now the current version is specific to people applying for university. So it’s [00:51:00] going to be dental questions, medical questions and things like computer science and pharmacy that have interviews. [00:51:05] But as of the next few weeks, for the next couple of months, we’re building up the job seeking aspect. So it’s [00:51:10] now going to help people be better at their jobs, job interviews, and giving them feedback on the way that they speak and [00:51:15] present themselves. And if you’re looking down like this, or you’re umming and arring and you’ve got bad eye contact, it’s going to be [00:51:20] able to give you feedback on that as well. And there’s also really simple things that we bring in, which is like, you know, for [00:51:25] university, it’s like personal statement reading. So we can read your personal statement with I tell you where to improve, what things [00:51:30] are good and bad at. And the same thing with CVS. It’s not a difficult thing to build out. It’s [00:51:35] more of a thing that is good with your product that, you know, kind of feeds people into the interview stuff.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:51:40] what’s the business model.

Faris: So it’s a subscription based model. So the way that [00:51:45] it works is people pay £15 a month to have access to the site. Within that you get access [00:51:50] to a few things. So one is the CV checking and personal statement AI tool. You also get access to [00:51:55] our interview content. So that allows you to record videos and get the instant feedback which gives you access [00:52:00] to resources. Transcript reading and a breakdown of how powerful or strong the interview is, [00:52:05] especially compared to other candidates. And the next thing that we’re building out is our resources library. So [00:52:10] we’re going to have courses on the actual site where you’re going to be able to improve things that you’re weaker. So let’s say you do [00:52:15] ten questions and you’re always absolutely dreadful at critical thinking questions. We’ll have modules [00:52:20] that teach you how to get better at critical thinking. So it’s an all in one platform to help people improve.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t [00:52:25] it really flawed as a business model insomuch as your [00:52:30] customers constantly falling off, you’re constantly churning?

Faris: Yeah, that’s one [00:52:35] of the big challenges of of the product. And that’s why our long term plan is to build it out where it’s also [00:52:40] directly related to recruitment companies. So it will help match together job seekers and recruiters. [00:52:45] So it allows for people to improve their interview skills and be pre-screened and also be attached to jobs, because [00:52:50] that is one of the big issues we have is churn, which is where you might have people use it for a short period of time.

Payman Langroudi: They get into university. [00:52:55] I don’t need it anymore. Or if I get my job, I don’t need it anymore.

Faris: Exactly. So that’s how we’re improving it. And also [00:53:00] on the communication front, having those courses, those resources, so people are better at communicating as a whole. [00:53:05] But yeah, it’s one of those things that we need to find a better solution for. But right now, as we’re [00:53:10] building it out, it’s going into that job market and going into the recruitment market and bringing them in. So it’s a.

Payman Langroudi: I guess that’s [00:53:15] one of the reasons you’re doing this. Yeah. Yeah.

Faris: Yeah. Exactly. It’s tough. It’s that’s one of the things as [00:53:20] long as you the issue with building quickly is you have to build it quickly and then you realise, oh this [00:53:25] is really good. But okay, now here’s the next challenge. Oh this is really good. Okay. Here’s now the next challenge. So you have to [00:53:30] constantly iterate and improve. We originally wanted it to just be specifically only for [00:53:35] medical and dental students. So we were even thinking, oh, okay, well we should just support them through their journey at university. [00:53:40] So we’re going to do like an Oscar helper on university, um, exams. But then we realised that’s [00:53:45] not what we want to do. It’s not it’s not the right product for this. So yeah, it’s a lot of experimenting and [00:53:50] failing a lot to find out what works.

Payman Langroudi: But when you think about it like, [00:53:55] I don’t know, I subscribe to whatever I subscribe to, right? Ag1. Yeah, yeah, [00:54:00] I’m going to continue subscribing to that green powder. Yeah. Until I get sick of it [00:54:05] or something. Yeah, yeah. But with yours it’s, it’s got a, it’s almost like it’s the brand. [00:54:10] You have to feel like this brand has helped me so much. And it’s now changes as I [00:54:15] change my job roles. It’s a difficult challenge. It’s a difficult one. It’s not an easy challenge.

Faris: It’s not, [00:54:20] it’s not, it’s it’s something that we’re working with and something that we’re aware of as a [00:54:25] challenge of the business. And that’s why we’re trying to find out how we’re going to improve that long [00:54:30] term maintenance of the people that come in. So they don’t just come in and churn and leave. But it’s [00:54:35] also one of those things where, you know, the market’s big enough, where even if they are churning, there’s enough job seekers, enough people that are trying [00:54:40] to use the product where it works quite well as a subscription model for X number of months. [00:54:45] So yeah, it’s definitely a challenge that we’re that we’re working.

Payman Langroudi: Because, you know, that annual [00:54:50] recurring revenue model. Yeah. The reason people like it is because it’s sticky. Sticky. [00:54:55] True. You know.

Faris: The reason why all markets are interesting is because you always have a [00:55:00] new set of university applicants every year that always come at the exact same time. So that’s the only [00:55:05] reason why we can be cohorts keep coming. Exactly. You always know there’s going to be a new market [00:55:10] ready for the taking. So when we pitched it, because we had this question a lot, we pitched it more as instead of it being [00:55:15] as like a high churn, it’s a seasonal business. So we’ve got certain High peak and low peak, and that’s why [00:55:20] job seeking is the next thing we’re going into, because it’s a little bit more stable where you can have that, you know, [00:55:25] more is going to stay consistent throughout the year and not just peaks and troughs all the time.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:55:30] a massive challenge, man. It is.

Faris: Yeah. Building is hard.

Payman Langroudi: I’m a little [00:55:35] bit concerned that you’re doing this alongside your first job. Yeah, but but if anyone can, you [00:55:40] can. I mean, I’m trying. That’s why I asked you about. First question. Have you always been a high achiever? [00:55:45] Yeah I.

Faris: Try. I mean, it’s tough though.

Payman Langroudi: The good thing is that let’s say you fail. Yeah. [00:55:50] The learnings will be amazing.

Faris: Exactly. That’s why for me, I don’t I, I never [00:55:55] look at something as I, there’s nothing that I do that I really worry about. I just do it. If it doesn’t work, [00:56:00] it’s not the end of the world. I don’t have any shame. I don’t really care as long as I’ve put as much time and effort into it as possible, [00:56:05] and I’ve gained something out of it. I’ve learned what’s the problem? You know, I will always be the person [00:56:10] that will. I’d rather do something. Obviously it doesn’t fail, but hopefully it doesn’t fail. But I’d rather do it and learn [00:56:15] than just sit twiddling my thumbs and think, oh, the market’s not right or it’s not the right time. Oh look, there’s another competitor doing it. Just [00:56:20] do it. Learn. If you fail, great. Do something else. Like congratulations. You’re going to close down the company, [00:56:25] spend another £12, open something else. It’s just how I am. I will keep doing things until [00:56:30] it works. It just won’t ever end.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. But your [00:56:35] life isn’t on the line.

Faris: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. With financially. Yeah. Exactly, [00:56:40] exactly. Important to keep that way. I mean, it’s interesting how in the US they the second time founders [00:56:45] as more like they like people who failed once. Yeah. They love it. It’s kind of the opposite where. [00:56:50]

Faris: Like a, like a.

Payman Langroudi: Like a bad.

Faris: Yeah. Medal of honour. Like bad. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s interesting because [00:56:55] let’s say you go through this process and I don’t know, let’s just imagine in three years time, God [00:57:00] forbid, you fail. Yeah. You the reasons you failed, right? [00:57:05] You definitely won’t do that again. 100%. 100%. Hundred percent. You [00:57:10] know, whatever the reasons were.

Faris: You learn, don’t you? For me, I. This sounds so odd. And probably [00:57:15] it’s really weird. I think of my life when I played a lot of games when I was younger. And you’d have, like, these stats, [00:57:20] like you can have, like, you know, you have 100 points to put into your character. Put 50 into strength, ten [00:57:25] into speed. For me, I think about life that way. I think of, okay, well here are all the traits that are really high value [00:57:30] that are important for people to develop. What am I doing to improve every single one? So what have I done to improve [00:57:35] my marketing and social media skills? What have I done to improve my communication skills? What have I done to improve my entrepreneurship? [00:57:40] How am I actually getting myself out there? If as long as I’m doing something that is putting [00:57:45] a little bit more into that statistic and into that, you know, career development, I’ll keep doing it. And [00:57:50] even, you know, I think of everything in terms of analogies, just like when you go to the gym, if you lift the same [00:57:55] weight every single day for a year, you’re not going to get very far. You have to make it harder and harder. So that’s what I [00:58:00] did. I had this social media platform with YouTube that did well, okay, did my own mini business where I’d help [00:58:05] people getting into dental school. Okay, fantastic. Now it’s doing something a bit harder. Let’s build a company. Let’s really try [00:58:10] and push it out there and raise money and, you know, build something that works. So everything gets progressively [00:58:15] harder as my skills improve.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your favourite dental treatment?

Faris: I [00:58:20] love Onlays at the moment I really enjoy doing Onlays. I think they make sense. You know, as long as you’ve got a good rubber dam [00:58:25] and decent burs and a good lab. What I want to do long term is definitely implants. That [00:58:30] to me is, oh really? Yeah. I love implants. Like that’s obviously blood. Yeah. I don’t mind [00:58:35] blood. I don’t mind some oral surgery. Taking teeth out, putting things in I love it.

Payman Langroudi: You know, [00:58:40] let’s imagine you want to get into implants like that. That’s an all encompassing, difficult thing to get into. [00:58:45]

Faris: It is.

Payman Langroudi: I wish you luck, my buddy. It’s so impressive. Um, let’s [00:58:50] finish it off with the usual questions. Sure. Fantasy dinner party. Oh. [00:58:55] Three guests, dead or alive. Okay. Who do you have? [00:59:00]

Faris: It’s a great question. So this question, I [00:59:05] always say, you know, I’m one of the things I value is my faith. So one would be, you know, [00:59:10] someone from the Islamic religion. So whether it be a prophet or be someone that I’d want to speak to about [00:59:15] their experiences back then. So that would be one. Um, the second would be someone that I look up to in the entrepreneurial [00:59:20] space. So it would be someone like Steven Bartlett, probably. I’d want to chat to him. And the last one [00:59:25] would be someone that has sacrificed a lot and through that has had a massive impact [00:59:30] and legacy in society. So it might be someone like Gandhi. [00:59:35] Gandhi maybe. Or Martin Luther King Junior. I went to Atlanta [00:59:40] recently, so I went to, you know, their their museums out there. So I learned a lot about him. But those are probably my three [00:59:45] favourite guests because they encompass something, three really important things in my life, which is [00:59:50] my faith, my entrepreneurship. And the final thing is leaving a legacy and building something that is going [00:59:55] to outlast me when I when I die.

Payman Langroudi: Well, tell me about your faith. [01:00:00]

Faris: So I’m Muslim, so, uh, I come from a muslim background with, you know, my [01:00:05] parents were all Muslim. We came from Egypt. Something that I’ve been quite [01:00:10] well aligned with because it’s important to have something there that kind of keeps your morality in check [01:00:15] and is a break from everything that you do in the Commonwealth. And [01:00:20] as I get older, I think I become more in line with it. And I understand it more because [01:00:25] at the end of the day, everyone’s allowed to have their own beliefs, their own faith. I don’t really care what everyone else does, but [01:00:30] to me it’s important to if I’m going to commit to a faith that was assigned to me at birth, which [01:00:35] a lot of people kind of say, I need to understand that. I really want to know why exactly I’m following this [01:00:40] religion, what things I enjoy, what things I need to do to become the best version of myself. Um, [01:00:45] so yeah, it’s something that’s at the core of everything I do, I think. Because if you if [01:00:50] you don’t have something to guide you, if you don’t have, you know, you’ve got your worldly goals, but you have to have [01:00:55] other things that are keeping you in check. So one of the big things, for example, in my religion is charity. [01:01:00] So I care which is being able to support those that are needy and need help. And that’s why I’m [01:01:05] from that. I built my own charity as well that helps vulnerable families in London and abroad. So a [01:01:10] lot of this comes from my own faith. And yeah, it’s something that I hold to very high regard. [01:01:15]

Payman Langroudi: Tell me, tell me about the charity.

Faris: So it’s called Reformation Charity essentially. It’s a charity [01:01:20] that was built also at Dental School with a friend of mine. So I did a lot of schools. I had a bit of a [01:01:25] social life, so I was part of the Arab society. And through that we did like a lot of social events, a lot of fun things [01:01:30] just to, you know, like meals, etc.. And we realised, well, we’re raising a lot of, we’re making quite good money [01:01:35] from like memberships etc. but why don’t we use this money for something good? So we got [01:01:40] contacted by a big charity and they wanted to work with us. We did a lot of different challenges and [01:01:45] bringing money in, and through the kind of 2 or 3 years I was at uni, I think we raised about a quarter of £1 [01:01:50] million for charity through different events that we did. And then we realised, oh, wait a minute, why don’t we just do [01:01:55] this ourselves? So we built that charity whilst whilst at dental school and now [01:02:00] I work on that part time with like a with our team of university students to set up events [01:02:05] through throughout the year. But yeah, that’s something that I do as a as I have those four pillars that I [01:02:10] follow, charities that last one that I think is really critical because that will outlast you, [01:02:15] you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, what do you do with the.

Faris: Money? Um, so it gets put into a few main things. So one [01:02:20] is youth. So in London what we do is we do kind of like, um, sporting [01:02:25] events. On top of that, we also do these charity drives. So ours are quite unique from different [01:02:30] charities because all our volunteers are university students. So the concept is while you’re young, [01:02:35] you should get involved in charity, enjoy it and understand where your money’s going. So any money we raise [01:02:40] people, then package the package. The the goods at university, they take it out. And in [01:02:45] London, we giving out to the homeless or to vulnerable families food. In the winter we give out like gloves [01:02:50] and blankets. But it all comes from uni students. And that’s why we have a really unique situation [01:02:55] where a lot of charities struggle to get volunteers. We have too many because they learn about us through university, [01:03:00] they come through, they package, they help deliver, they drive the cars and they get to see first hand. [01:03:05] You know when you see that number on GoFundMe going up with us, they see that money going up and they see exactly what [01:03:10] it’s being invested in and exactly who it’s helping. So that’s part of our mission as well, just to, you know, help young [01:03:15] people get into charity early.

Payman Langroudi: But then, okay, how do you find these families?

Faris: So we work with different [01:03:20] charities as well. So, um, so we’re like the Samaritans or we work with other [01:03:25] vulnerable charities in London. Um, so there’s one called Charity Meets Home I think, which every [01:03:30] Friday they give out free meals to the homeless in Charing Cross. So we work alongside [01:03:35] them to bring volunteers and help them, because, as I said, a lot of these charities really, really struggle to have volunteers [01:03:40] where whereas we’re the opposite, we have like we have so many people that just want to get involved. So they’ll go and they’ll [01:03:45] help out along these different people. And our long term goal is to do our own charity expeditions [01:03:50] abroad. So whether it’s back home in Egypt, where we help people there and whether it’s going into like building [01:03:55] mobile dental clinics, because I know a lot of them are really popping off now, especially in, um, less economically [01:04:00] developed countries where they’re to use that money for, for good.

Payman Langroudi: I like [01:04:05] it, I like it. But do you know about effective altruism? Yeah, I.

Faris: Know about this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:04:10]

Payman Langroudi: Do you know what I mean? But do you know what I’m about to say?

Faris: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I’m about to say. [01:04:15] Which is what? Just work harder, make more money so that you can use that to essentially invest in improve [01:04:20] infrastructure and things down the line.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. This listen man, don’t [01:04:25] get me wrong. Don’t get me wrong. It’s good for a young person to give. Yeah for sure [01:04:30] 100% whether you’re giving time or whatever. Um, but, but but [01:04:35] the question of the, the charitable thing being more for you than for the, for [01:04:40] the, for the person you’re giving to. Yeah. And then some people say hello. As long as you’re giving. Great. [01:04:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever. Whatever you’re getting out of it. Yeah. And I totally [01:04:50] get that too. Yeah. But I just feel like it’s it’s something that needs to be in the head [01:04:55] of anyone who’s doing any charity work. Yeah. Because it’s it’s important to bear [01:05:00] in mind what’s going on here. What’s what is the driver. Yeah. It [01:05:05] is, it’s like, I don’t know I want my kid to go and work in the food [01:05:10] bank. Yeah, he did worked in the food bank for him to see that there’s people less [01:05:15] fortunate than him. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, but but there was almost a selfish [01:05:20] aspect to that of I wanted him to see that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Whereas if, [01:05:25] if my initial position was I want food to go to as many people as possible as possible, [01:05:30] my son may not have been the right person to go and hand that food out. You? Yeah, and I’m not saying do anything [01:05:35] different. I’m just saying bear it in mind. Yeah.

Faris: No, I agree.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of a holistic view [01:05:40] on.

Faris: Yeah. You know, look maybe down the line I’ll go into politics or something and try and create change. But [01:05:45] as I said, it’s it’s all phases of life isn’t it. Of course. And that’s what I love about.

Payman Langroudi: I’m much [01:05:50] happier for you to say you’re doing this than you’re not doing this. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. If you tell me you’re spending your spare time in Ibiza, [01:05:55] instead of here, which.

Faris: Is also fine, but.

Payman Langroudi: It’s also based on that story [01:06:00] of sacrifice. Yeah, yeah. I had a week in a bath just [01:06:05] before we started. Enlighten. Yeah. Just before. Yeah. And thank God I did. Yeah, [01:06:10] because just after, there was no way. Yeah. There was no way, you know, and we were having [01:06:15] these questions about, hey, what was the happiest day of your life? The saddest day of your life and And and [01:06:20] your 20s. Yeah. Are a brilliant time. Yeah. And the [01:06:25] sacrifice is real. The sacrifice is real. It is. You know, and so that drive that [01:06:30] you’ve got. And that’s what I was trying to get down to. Where is it coming from, man? Where’s it coming from? Um, [01:06:35] it’s a beautiful thing. Yeah, but but it comes with sacrifice.

Faris: It does, it does. I also think to add [01:06:40] on to the purpose of driving, I was thinking throughout the podcast, I think it also just comes out of I just set myself [01:06:45] expectations and if I don’t hit them, I’m just disappointed. So to avoid that disappointment, it’s like you just got to keep [01:06:50] working where that came from. I don’t really know. Maybe it’s a like [01:06:55] maybe it’s a toxic way of thinking, but it’s just always happened. Like it’s not because my parents were particularly [01:07:00] like, oh, you’re this or that. It’s more just like, I just, I just have to do something with my life because I [01:07:05] don’t want to. I don’t want to leave this world without having something to leave behind. [01:07:10] And also without saying that I’ve tried my absolute best to be the absolute [01:07:15] best version of myself, because I don’t know, I think that’s the purpose of life, isn’t this? You have [01:07:20] to. You have to make your mark. You have to do something impactful. You have to help others. You have to make [01:07:25] sure that you can finish everything and say, you know what? Yeah, I did live my life to the fullest. I did everything I could to be [01:07:30] the best I can be. And again, not everyone needs to have that vision because, you know, I’ve had conversations with [01:07:35] friends and they’re like, well, maybe I’ll just, like, enjoy your life a bit, like, what are you doing? But to me, that’s that’s my driving [01:07:40] factor. That’s what I enjoy. I also think of it as if I work hard now. I can enjoy the spoils later, you know, [01:07:45] and.

Payman Langroudi: And they said that about entrepreneurial entrepreneurialism. Yeah. Do [01:07:50] you do what no one else will now, so that then you can live like no one else will can later? Yeah, [01:07:55] yeah.

Faris: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure, man. Massive pleasure. Thank you. You’re an inspiration. Thanks. Cheers. [01:08:00]

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, [01:08:05] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:08:10] Your hosts, Payman Langroudi [01:08:15] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If [01:08:20] you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and [01:08:25] pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, [01:08:30] because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about [01:08:35] subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some [01:08:40] value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating. [01:08:45]

Onkar: When I was in fifth year dental school, I kept seeing like junior doctor, F1 bloggers, junior [00:00:05] doctor, junior F1, F2 and YouTubers and I’m like, why is there no foundation dentist [00:00:10] doing this? Like, I knew of you, I knew of yourself, I knew of George the Dentist and people that you know. [00:00:15] But I was like, why is there no vet doing this? Right? So that was my niche. And I thought, let [00:00:20] me go on to that niche because no one’s doing it and I’ll do it. And that is just how it unfolded. It [00:00:25] was like days in the life, posting small clinical cases, then posting little videos, and [00:00:30] then it just took off.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:40] is mind movers. Moving the conversation [00:00:45] forward on mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. Your [00:00:50] hosts Rhona Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Welcome [00:00:55] to another episode of Mind Movies. Today we’ve got [00:01:00] the incredible doctor on car. Doctor on car is a trailblazer. A trailblazer within [00:01:05] the young Dental community. The one thing that I remember about anchor. Is that he was a very [00:01:10] keen young dentist, and even when he was studying, he actively went out there to the social media dentist [00:01:15] and said, can I do work experience? Can I learn from you? Anchor has taken the social [00:01:20] media world by storm. He has 50,000 followers on TikTok, [00:01:25] but importantly, a huge, huge amount of engagement. He is known and loved by a lot [00:01:30] of people in the public, mainly talking about his experiences working on the NHS and [00:01:35] what happens as a dental student. Anchor has been keen to also share [00:01:40] his experience of his own mental health and burnout within this. He works in hospital [00:01:45] in practice and also does facial aesthetics. So welcome anchor.

Onkar: I need that intro like [00:01:50] in my life. Every day, every day when I’m feel crap about myself.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing. I love that [00:01:55] I’ll record it and send it to you.

Onkar: Thanks for having me both of you. Really appreciate it. Thanks for coming. Thank you.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing. Okay, so [00:02:00] anchor you are. You graduated in 2019, right?

Onkar: Yeah. Five years ago now. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Wow. That makes [00:02:05] you like I graduated in 2000. I graduated in 2010. So that’s kind of like [00:02:10] mental for me to process. So let’s have a little bit of a [00:02:15] start from the beginning. Where did you grow up. How did you get into dentistry?

Onkar: Okay. So I [00:02:20] grew up in Essex like Essex Boy through and through. I don’t have the accent. I’m [00:02:25] quite well-spoken. I thank my parents for that. For primary school. That was good. Yeah. They told us not to drop our [00:02:30] teas and actually speak properly. So I did primary school there, secondary school there. And then [00:02:35] when I was in Essex, so Barkingside and like Gants Hill, all of that area and [00:02:40] then moved over to like Hornchurch, which is like deep, deep Essex, like Towie land. Yeah. [00:02:45] So I went from like very multicultural Essex to Towie and now like this is very different. Yeah. So [00:02:50] I was there throughout secondary school and then throughout secondary school. I think like all [00:02:55] of us, maybe I was a bit of a skiver like I was very good at [00:03:00] working under pressure so I would piss around in lessons. I was a bit of a class clown, like a bit of a joker, [00:03:05] and I would end up, you know, doing really badly throughout the whole school year. And then at the end of [00:03:10] term, smashing all my exams. So that trend kept happening for, you know, three years. And [00:03:15] then I got to my GCSE year and that did not happen and I bombed everything. Yeah. [00:03:20] So that’s kind of where my passion for dentistry began, because at that [00:03:25] point was when I was like, I want to do dentistry or medicine, I’d failed and bombed all [00:03:30] of these internal exams, and now all of the teachers at school and the careers advisers said, you can’t do it. We’re [00:03:35] going to put you into bottom set for everything. You know, back in those like 2010 for GCSEs, [00:03:40] if you were bottom set or you were like foundation set, you couldn’t apply for those kinds of degrees. I think things have changed [00:03:45] a bit now, but all those things were like a big barrier. And then, [00:03:50] yeah, that’s kind of that initial sort of inspiration was from wanting to prove teachers wrong, [00:03:55] if that makes sense.

Rhona Eskander: So then what happened? How did you then get into do the grades that [00:04:00] you needed to get?

Onkar: I honestly like what happened if it’s like only a bit Dental. I [00:04:05] didn’t revise for those exams because I hadn’t exposed, unbuttoned and something for occluded eats I had [00:04:10] to have extracted under GA. Yeah, so I was in hospital. I was back and forth between orthodontists. I just [00:04:15] didn’t revise. So I that’s why I bombed the exams. I told the teachers [00:04:20] and staff like, I’ll prove you all wrong. They kept me in bottom sets. They just they were like, you need to get these [00:04:25] grades. And if you don’t, we’re still going to keep you in those bottom sets. Got the grades? My parents came in, you know, ethnic [00:04:30] parents. They came in one day, fought my case for me. They were like, we need him to, you know, we really want him. [00:04:35] He wants to pursue this. Like, why are you holding him back? You know, so we had this, like, 40 [00:04:40] minute meeting, and I remember the physics teacher was like, to me, you’ll never get into dental school. Medical [00:04:45] school. Like it’s never going to happen to you, so stop. But I’m going to prove you wrong. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:04:50] think it’s dangerous. You know, Payman and I often talk about the educational system. It’s just [00:04:55] such an old system. I feel like. Why are they still teaching Pythagoras’s theorem? [00:05:00] You know, like in school, when we don’t learn about subjects that will do something [00:05:05] for our lives and our benefit. And I also feel that there is such a lack of understanding [00:05:10] for different types of brains. I think your children are very academic. Naturally, [00:05:15] I understand, but. I forgot to tell you. Last week [00:05:20] I went for an assessment and I officially have ADHD diagnosis. [00:05:25]

Onkar: So yeah, I’m not surprised.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Me too. By [00:05:30] the way.

Rhona Eskander: How could you get a proper assessment? Exactly. So I think a proper assessment with a psychiatrist. [00:05:35] And she was like, not even on the spectrum. Like I’m fully in. I’m fully in. Right. I’ve got it.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:05:40] does it make you feel better than you are now as a name?

Rhona Eskander: Somewhat. But my therapist [00:05:45] had always been said that she thought I had a very neurodivergent brain, and my partner was very much [00:05:50] like, I feel like too many people are being overdiagnosed incorrect labels. And you think I’ve said it. [00:05:55] And he also said he blames on social media and phones. Because if you take it away now, [00:06:00] and also I think there’s two schools of thought. The old school psychiatrist thinks it’s [00:06:05] very much a childhood disease and people can grow out of it. And obviously, when I used [00:06:10] to think of ADHD as a child, it was the child that was like climbing up the walls. You remember those ones that just [00:06:15] could not sit still was super naughty. I wasn’t that child, but I definitely think [00:06:20] I’ve got a neurodivergent brain in the sense that teachers said I wouldn’t get anywhere. I flopped [00:06:25] all of my exams, but the one thing that I had to do was was hyperfocus [00:06:30] and get loads of support. So because I went to a private school and was privileged to do so, I [00:06:35] sought support from the teachers. Yeah, I hyper focussed on the stuff that I was good at, [00:06:40] but self-directed learning or anything like that could not do, could not do. It was like [00:06:45] the way that my brain would memorise things. So I got 100% in my English literature paper. But [00:06:50] that’s because I’d written out the Desdemona from Othello. I’d [00:06:55] written out that same essay 25 million times. So when it came up in the A levels, I [00:07:00] just did that does that. It wasn’t necessarily regurgitated. It pretty much so obviously, [00:07:05] she said. I have the type of brain, which is the misconception that I know how to cope. [00:07:10] It’s not like it’s debilitating. Again, with my practice, people say, how can you do a podcast? How can you run [00:07:15] a practice? How can you do all these things? You must be so busy. I’m like, no, it’s because I have a huge [00:07:20] support network in front of me. Like Payman sorts out all the editing. So the podcast, I bring the guests and do the creative [00:07:25] stuff. My practice is pretty much run by people that I’ve employed.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:07:30] are you saying you also have?

Onkar: I feel like I’m self-diagnosed, but who isn’t? I’ve always felt [00:07:35] scatty and like I felt like I like the way my brain works, though I enjoy that. It’s crazy in there. And that’s why [00:07:40] I wanted to prove people wrong and prove teachers wrong. Because, you know, a lot of people know this. My dad’s a dentist, [00:07:45] and he’s always been a big inspiration to me, and he still works. He’s in his 60s. He’s kind of like your dad, right? Right. I have passion for [00:07:50] their job. And I think, unfortunately, there’s this stupid label now of, like, Nepo baby. Like your dad got you [00:07:55] into school. Nobody did. Did my dad do my A-levels for me? He did not. Did my dad do my dental school exams? [00:08:00] No. Yeah, yeah. In fact, when my dad went to dental school in the 70s, I think it was a bit harder. Yeah. [00:08:05] When your dad went to medical school, it was harder. There was more exams. I’m pretty sure it was more rigorous. Yeah, still [00:08:10] difficult now, but that label annoys me. And I had that throughout school as well as [00:08:15] uni. People were like, your dad’s a dentist. You must have it so lucky. In fact, someone was like, he’s [00:08:20] so lucky he has his dad because he can go home and talk about cases. I’m not chatting to my dad about [00:08:25] work when I go home, I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, when.

Onkar: I was in.

Rhona Eskander: Quite strongly about this [00:08:30] whole nepo baby thing.

Payman Langroudi: Well, no.

Rhona Eskander: No, in the sense that you think it’s really unfair that people think it’s unfair.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But [00:08:35] you’ve got to acknowledge that there is some advantage in having a dad who’s a dentist.

Onkar: For [00:08:40] me, I was I’m blessed to have his expertise in my back pocket, but I [00:08:45] don’t like the insinuation of he got me into dental school. I think that irritated me because [00:08:50] I flopped my A-levels again a gap year. I had four rejections and then went to four offers [00:08:55] like I went through it in my gap year on my own, like 18. All my mates had gone to uni. [00:09:00] One other person took a gap year with me. Well did you on your gap year?

Rhona Eskander: So I had.

Onkar: To reset my A-levels. Right? So [00:09:05] you.

Rhona Eskander: Just studied the whole of the.

Onkar: Gap, that chemistry, I reset geography, I worked like three different jobs because I [00:09:10] knew it’s a five year degree. I want to save up some money and I did a little bit of travelling around Europe. [00:09:15] Nothing crazy. I didn’t find myself on like a mountain somewhere I wish I did.

Rhona Eskander: I honestly wish, yeah. Me too, [00:09:20] me too, I wish I.

Onkar: Did and I wish I didn’t have to reset those exams. You know, all my I remember [00:09:25] my mates and my mum telling me like my mum especially was like work hard, like smash [00:09:30] those exams, enjoy that whole year because we’ll never have that again. And I was like, nah mum, it’ll be [00:09:35] fine. Like I’ll be fine. But A-levels are hard. I think certain elements of A-levels are probably harder than dental [00:09:40] school for me, and when I saw those grades and I was like, it’s not even a flop, like two [00:09:45] A’s and two B’s is not a flop to the general public, but to people who are high achievers. I need [00:09:50] like three stars or whatever. You’re like a flopped. And then that’s when you kind of go [00:09:55] wish and you think I’ve messed this up now, you know. So I think that was a really [00:10:00] important I needed that because I didn’t have that because I bounced back. A-levels was my first taste [00:10:05] of failure. B’s aren’t a failure. But for me, I was like, oh my God, I know life. [00:10:10] And I remember like I bought that. Is it The Guardian or The Times that has the clearing list [00:10:15] in the newspaper? Yeah. And. You read the op ed and I was highlighting things. I’m a medicine [00:10:20] was in clearing and I was like, do I do it? Do I do it? Do I bring like Liverpool [00:10:25] Uni and go for medicine? I like, move or do I stick to my guns and actually pursue [00:10:30] that dental school dream? And I’m glad I did. What did your parents say?

Rhona Eskander: What did they encourage you to do?

Onkar: My [00:10:35] dad is honestly like he always said to me, like, do what you want to do. Yeah. The [00:10:40] reason why he drew me towards dentistry is because every day he came home was a good day. [00:10:45] I never I’ve never heard that man talk badly about dentistry yet. He loves people. He loves his job. [00:10:50] He comes home and he talks about it with passion. Yeah. And I was like, can’t be that bad. Like, it [00:10:55] can’t be that bad if he loves his job. Yeah. On the other side, you know, we’ve all got medical friends and family [00:11:00] and other complete other industries. And I never heard people talk about their [00:11:05] jobs that way. Yeah. I shadowed in, like, you know, hospitals, GP [00:11:10] practices, banks, like, everywhere that I could, you know, as far as going [00:11:15] to like, restaurants and looking into, like, being a chef. And I was like, I [00:11:20] don’t know, I actually don’t know. And sometimes I still don’t know if I’m doing the right thing. Like Shock bombshell, [00:11:25] I don’t still don’t know if dentistry is like something I’ll do forever.

Payman Langroudi: You’re very [00:11:30] early on, very five years.

Onkar: Like five years post-grad.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very early on. But I mean, [00:11:35] where did you study things and how did you take to university?

Onkar: I loved uni [00:11:40] like, I, I loved the social element of uni. [00:11:45] I’m a people like we’re all like I love like just people and like being around people. And for [00:11:50] uni, having that gap year and having like two friends and being a little bit low going into a year [00:11:55] of like 140 people your age, new social network, so much London. I love London, [00:12:00] I’m from London. I was stuck between London and Leeds. And though Leeds is is your alma mater, [00:12:05] right? They were my two top unis and I had two offers from them and other unis, and it was nice [00:12:10] because I had four rejections that year before. So I was like, I’ve got options now. Yeah, pending my A-levels. [00:12:15] But that year of my gap year, like it was special. Like I knew I’d get in, like my exams [00:12:20] all went well, all my revision material went well. Like all those entrance exams.

Payman Langroudi: Change you and you [00:12:25] become a more serious studier at that point or still.

Onkar: No, I knew there was more like stuff [00:12:30] that was basically more to on the table. Like if I didn’t get in a second time around as [00:12:35] a research offer holder, there was no chance I’d get in a third time. Yeah, but.

Payman Langroudi: Going forward in Kingston, um, were [00:12:40] you much more serious then.

Onkar: I think? Yes and no. I became more serious [00:12:45] at the start of my first year. I was definitely more serious, but I was implementing the wrong things. [00:12:50] So whether this is ADHD, brain or whatever, I was trying to work like an A-level student [00:12:55] in uni and that method didn’t work. Like writing pretty notes and trying to memorise things was [00:13:00] not working. So then I almost failed first year and then I was like, shit, something’s not right here. Like, [00:13:05] this is not the way I need to go moving forward. Like you’re passing exams by 1%. [00:13:10] Skin of your teeth. Yeah, pardon the pun. And then second year [00:13:15] as well. Like passed one exam. Well and the other exam was like again 51%. [00:13:20] And I was like what is happening. And then like literally uni when I failed that exam, [00:13:25] I failed an exam in first year uni, which didn’t count. It was like a middle of the year hurdle. And [00:13:30] they called me in for a meeting and they were like, you’re crazy. Like because your first exam was 51 and this exam [00:13:35] was 49. Like you’re basically averaging effect, like fail, like you’re studying. I was [00:13:40] like, of course I’m studying like, I this is how I work. They’re like, something’s not right. Like the way you’re working [00:13:45] is not right. But I think they just thought I was party animal, which was definitely not the case. I honestly was putting in [00:13:50] the hours, but it was not right then. It all changed in my third year of dental school when I realised how [00:13:55] I actually work, and I’ve used that method ever since. And now photographic memory.

Rhona Eskander: The [00:14:00] thing is, the educational system is so flawed because I knew how I worked really well, and going [00:14:05] from a kid that was told that they’d never make anything of their lives and just might be good at drama. Yeah, to [00:14:10] smashing my A levels, getting a scholarship, etc. and then getting into dental school. [00:14:15] I really hated the philosophy of first of all, you’re with the most intelligent people in the country. Just [00:14:20] aim to pass. That’s what they told you. And like I found that just so demeaning. You know, you [00:14:25] have gone to school to be like, I’m going to get four A’s to just pass. And they made everything [00:14:30] so difficult and so impossible. I just don’t think it’s actually a very encouraging way of thinking, [00:14:35] and I don’t think it’s very helpful to the students. And I think it has a massive impact on [00:14:40] their self-esteem and their self-confidence. So it’s a flawed system, in my opinion.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:14:45] mean, how would you change it?

Rhona Eskander: I think we need to account for the fact that people [00:14:50] work in different ways. I have no idea. But I think we have not [00:14:55] reviewed the systems in school and university for centuries. It’s madness. [00:15:00]

Payman Langroudi: You know what Elon Musk talks about? School should be streamed by subject. [00:15:05] Explain. So you could be a 12 year old in a class with a 17 year old in [00:15:10] physics.

Rhona Eskander: Because you’re amazing at.

Payman Langroudi: Physics, progress in physics, but you could be in a class with a four year [00:15:15] not for you, a seven year old in English, you know? So you don’t just go [00:15:20] up because of your age. You different subjects. Yeah. And I agree with that to some [00:15:25] extent. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Because that’s a bit like getting a university degree. Right. Because then you go to university and you refine what you’re good at. If you [00:15:30] really.

Payman Langroudi: Are good at something, you should progress, you know, and it shouldn’t just be age based, [00:15:35] you know, it’s a well, that’s one idea. I was asking someone, what would you do to to [00:15:40] the Dental course, because there’s a lot of the Dental course you never use and Krebs cycle. [00:15:45]

Onkar: Yeah, right.

Rhona Eskander: Cycles.

Payman Langroudi: But bearing in mind some dentists go on to, you know, develop [00:15:50] drugs and so they need to know, you know, so there is that there’s other bits of important [00:15:55] bits of dentistry that don’t get covered at all. Right. No, no ortho, no whitening for the sake [00:16:00] of the argument. And so what would you take out. And I said I would take out full dentures. Yeah. [00:16:05] But then I interviewed a guy. Well, I interviewed a guy [00:16:10] the day before yesterday actually came out today. Yeah. And he’s a super duper prosthodontist. [00:16:15] Youngest ever specialist in Ireland, head of the Irish Dental Association. [00:16:20] And I said to him, what was your aha moment when you think of occlusion? And he said [00:16:25] that full dentures are the key to everything and that’s how that’s where smile design [00:16:30] came from. That’s what all the occlusion stuff came so and so you suddenly realise that, you know that me saying take [00:16:35] full dentures out. This guy was saying it’s everything it made.

Rhona Eskander: Taking [00:16:40] the stuff out. Maybe it’s about adding it in, because why aren’t we learning about that?

Onkar: You can’t just say, why [00:16:45] don’t we learn about tax at school? Opening an ice star like saving money, getting a mortgage, getting [00:16:50] a mortgage. Like how cool that should be school. But like, even like, if the dumbest things are like [00:16:55] getting a credit card. Like, no one teaches you to build your credit rating in school. Like, why do we learn pi whether.

Rhona Eskander: To become a limited [00:17:00] company? All this stuff.

[TRANSITION]: I should be schooled.

Rhona Eskander: That should be school.

[TRANSITION]: I think schools should.

Onkar: Teach you more important [00:17:05] life lessons. I think it’d be very hard for a dental school to tailor their teaching towards every [00:17:10] different individual personality type. I’ve now gone back there and I teach there, right? [00:17:15] So back at my uni, what do you teach? So it’s like dental emergencies, acute dental care [00:17:20] or surgery and all of that.

Rhona Eskander: And like so when you graduated let’s let’s rewind a little bit. So [00:17:25] you graduated and then where’s your DVT.

Onkar: Foundation training again like deep [00:17:30] Essex Brentwood.

Rhona Eskander: You hate it.

Onkar: Love it. Um it was really good until obviously we had the pandemic, which feels like [00:17:35] a fever dream. And I think like, you know, it was an awful time, but it was it was at that time [00:17:40] where I was getting confident with stuff. And then it was. Almost like. And everything was like locked down again. And [00:17:45] there’s pros and cons to everything, but that’s when I was really enjoying practice. I [00:17:50] was feeling really confident and kind of sad. At home, you’re on the phones and there’s [00:17:55] worse things that happen in Covid and people lost their lives. So I’m not complaining about that. But it’s you know, it [00:18:00] was that was was really pinnacle moment for me because I was like, maybe I should try other options. [00:18:05] And that’s when I started looking at hospital jobs. So then I did two years of all surgery, [00:18:10] like Max.

Payman Langroudi: To feel the first time you got into your clinic. [00:18:15] Horrendous. I was I couldn’t believe it, man. I couldn’t believe that all of that [00:18:20] was for this.

Rhona Eskander: No, no, no. But mine was horrendous because I was humiliated. I was somebody’s. [00:18:25]

Payman Langroudi: Idea.

Rhona Eskander: I was humiliated because I basically [00:18:30] didn’t get in, so I put myself. So what happened was I made this decision for I [00:18:35] want to go back down south and I’m not happy up north. Leeds complete done. Five years at Leeds. I want [00:18:40] to go back home. I want to be home. But I’ve made the active decision that I don’t want to be London because I heard the practices [00:18:45] in London were really bad, so I thought Kent, Surrey, Sussex seems like the logical thing to do. And [00:18:50] then I realised, and I think it’s different from when you were doing it. It was so political because [00:18:55] you go for interviews and realise that people gave people jobs because they knew someone or knew someone’s [00:19:00] brother or sister or friend or whatever. And I had no contacts in the dental world. So I dragged myself [00:19:05] through these interviews rejection, rejection, rejection, rejection. So then I went a step further [00:19:10] and I applied to another deanery altogether. Everyone else had pretty much had an offer. I was the only [00:19:15] person in my year that had didn’t have an offer. I felt like such a failure. I literally applied [00:19:20] to everything and I was like, I do not want to work in Norfolk. I do not want to work in Norfolk. And what was the reason? [00:19:25]

[TRANSITION]: Do you think you are bad at interviews?

Rhona Eskander: I think no, the thing is, is this is the crazy thing. Like, I like [00:19:30] to think that, you know, interpersonal skills and speaking is my [00:19:35] strong suit. But it was weird, like, I remember having a job interview at Stevenage and they were like. And it was like a [00:19:40] really NHS practice. And I think they had a lot of like, community work type dentistry. And [00:19:45] they were like, you’re too good pretty much for this job. That’s what they said to me. [00:19:50] And then I go, okay, fine. And then I wanted to be at some practices in Essex. And you know, they were kind [00:19:55] of like two Asian lads that always like had like Asian. It was it was really hard. And I would [00:20:00] do everything. I would drag myself all over the country and it was demeaning. And then eventually. [00:20:05] One practice in Kent. I think they only had two applicants because [00:20:10] at this point you can apply for as many practices as you want. Did it have a rep.

Onkar: At this point? Did you know this practice [00:20:15] had a rep?

Rhona Eskander: No. I just literally was like, this is a practice in Kent. And they had two people. [00:20:20] They rejected one person and I, they accepted me. But it was I barely [00:20:25] got in pretty much. And then was it an awful practice? No, it was a little village in Kent. Um, [00:20:30] it was, you know, little town. What a quiet village, you know, [00:20:35] like the beauty and the beast, you know, that’s how it looked. And I ended up meeting in my [00:20:40] village, Luke Athwal, who works for me now in my practice. And [00:20:45] Luke basically was the one that inspired me because he was working with a boss [00:20:50] that took him to all these different courses. I was the one that was inspired. If I had stayed in [00:20:55] this practice, the little village practice, I would have just been drill till pay the bill kind of dentistry. It was like that. My [00:21:00] boss was nice. She let me do stuff and I won like the best case presentation because [00:21:05] I was always keen. But it was a very underwhelming experience. What about you? [00:21:10]

[TRANSITION]: Mine was.

Onkar: I want to know, I can’t lie, mine was opposite to Rona. I wanted that practice. I ran it quite well. [00:21:15] I got that practice and I was like, well, I’m one of three foundation trainees with massive, huge [00:21:20] surgeries that 14 chairs in one practice, big corporate vibes, you know, [00:21:25] literally day one nothing. Day two, like you’re seeing four patients. Day three, [00:21:30] they’re like, we want bonding. Like. So it was cosmetic demand in Essex and I was like, I’m a DFT. Like, [00:21:35] how am I going to be doing doctor owner veneers on my first day? I can’t do this. So that [00:21:40] made me realise like managing expectations was big. These my Essex patients that I had [00:21:45] there, they had high expectations. Yeah. So I learned that from that practice. It wasn’t [00:21:50] the most glamorous. It was a bit run down. It was primarily NHS, but it taught me a lot, [00:21:55] which was people skills, working with a team of like 50 staff in the practice every day, but then [00:22:00] also practice politics. I’ve never I’ve never had that before, you know, um, this person said this [00:22:05] and I was like, I don’t I don’t need that. Like, I literally want to come to work, do my thing, go home, [00:22:10] you know? And it was it was good. Did I love it? No. Did I actually want to be there every [00:22:15] day? No. But it did teach me what I didn’t want from a practice. Yes. So there was a positive to it.

Rhona Eskander: Before [00:22:20] you went there. You’d obviously been influenced by a lot of Instagram dentists. And was that overwhelming that you [00:22:25] couldn’t do the type of work as someone that was newly qualified or the work that you were seeing on Instagram?

Onkar: Yeah, [00:22:30] I think what it was for me was like, when you’re, you know, fresh out of uni, you’re [00:22:35] expected to do everything. So like, you know, we had like associates in there. It was like send [00:22:40] patient to vet. You know, it was like a mouthful of decay, like nine root canals. And you’re like, [00:22:45] it’s taken me a whole year to do this case. You know, I don’t I don’t I don’t want to do it. You actually want to focus on things [00:22:50] that I enjoy, like surgery and cosmetics. Yeah. But you again, it’s the same thing. It’s the system doesn’t [00:22:55] allow you to develop those skills that early on. And it’s fine. There’s a curriculum which you have to stick to, [00:23:00] but there’s no flexibility from that curriculum. Like, I had a mate who failed to DFT because they didn’t fit [00:23:05] a Maryland bridge. Yeah, it’s like why? But the person is showing competence and everything else. [00:23:10] They bought this boy back to fit a bridge in August. Like, do you know what I mean?

[TRANSITION]: I mean like [00:23:15] social media.

Payman Langroudi: At this point.

[TRANSITION]: I was I.

Onkar: Would say that’s how my social media started. Payman. I was like. [00:23:20]

Rhona Eskander: During lockdown.

[TRANSITION]: Right prior.

Onkar: To so like basically what happened was, was that when I was [00:23:25] in fifth year dental school, I kept seeing like junior doctor, F1 bloggers, junior doctor, [00:23:30] junior F1, F2 and YouTubers and I’m like, why is there no foundation dentist [00:23:35] doing this? Like, I knew of you, I knew of yourself, I knew of George the Dentist and people that you know. But [00:23:40] I was like, why is there no doing this? Right? So that was my niche. And I thought, let me go [00:23:45] on to that niche because no one’s doing it and I’ll do it. And that is just how it unfolded. It was like [00:23:50] days in the life, posting small clinical cases, then posting little videos, and then [00:23:55] it just took off from DFT.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, I’ve got a very important question around this subject. Yes, we [00:24:00] do a composite course. We ask always with the marketing sections and we say, put your hand up [00:24:05] if you’ve got a dental account and there’s 30 people who’ve paid £1,000 [00:24:10] for a composite course, a composite course, it’s not a surgery course. And [00:24:15] in the room of 30 generally there’ll be 6 or 7.

[TRANSITION]: No way. [00:24:20] Only. Only. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the other.

Rhona Eskander: You ask them why they don’t have it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:24:25] yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And why the most common thing is they’re scared to show their work because [00:24:30] they’re worried about what other dentists will think of it.

Rhona Eskander: Other dentists.

[TRANSITION]: The worst.

Payman Langroudi: They haven’t got time [00:24:35] is obviously like the normal excuses or my account, you know, my family [00:24:40] account. I can’t handle two accounts, you know. But basically this is a question I’m going to ask you. How [00:24:45] come you didn’t have these hurdles?

[TRANSITION]: Imposter syndrome, did you?

Payman Langroudi: And how did you get over it?

[TRANSITION]: At [00:24:50] that point, I was like, I.

Onkar: Don’t really care. I’m going to put myself out there because realistically. [00:24:55]

[TRANSITION]: Were you not worried.

Payman Langroudi: What.

[TRANSITION]: Doctor is going.

Payman Langroudi: To think about.

[TRANSITION]: It? No, [00:25:00] I never thought that you.

Rhona Eskander: How old are the age group that they they’re scared of being judged by the dentist because I know the younger ones. [00:25:05] I feel like younger ones are more ready to put themselves out there. And my son.

Payman Langroudi: Is full of young [00:25:10] dentists trying to get.

[TRANSITION]: Private jobs, so they’re.

Rhona Eskander: Not the people that are in their 30s, 40s.

Payman Langroudi: Young dentist trying to get jobs. [00:25:15]

[TRANSITION]: I mean, I’ve.

Onkar: Always been a bit extrovert. I’ve always liked not being the centre of attention. Like, that’s not like I’m not an attention [00:25:20] whore, but like, I’ve always enjoyed, like, you know, in uni I was part of the comedy [00:25:25] show, the Dental Comedy Show. I, you know, used to do that. I’m not scared to put [00:25:30] myself out there. People are always going to talk, whether you do bad or good, like dentists and colleagues unfortunately [00:25:35] will talk whether it’s good or bad. So for me, I was like, I don’t want to post teeth on my personal [00:25:40] account. I’ve got family and friends on there that don’t care about teeth. In fact, my friends were unfollowing me. So like, [00:25:45] we don’t see grotty extractions on our personal page and we’re like, well, we follow you when you open your own doctor account. [00:25:50] So that’s actually also what I did, because my sister and stuff was like, we don’t want to see that we’re not dentists. [00:25:55] And I grant I was I’d be on my personal Instagram and it’d be all teeth. I’d lost [00:26:00] all my friends and family on my following list that every time I’d opened my phone, my suggested page was this. [00:26:05]

Onkar: And no, I don’t. I want to separate that. So that’s where the doctor account came from. It [00:26:10] just came from wanting to make the I think it’s I think like a good way for [00:26:15] me to put it is it’s very easy in dental school. And I see this now with the students [00:26:20] that we teach. Now that I’ve gone back to aspire to be great, it’s it’s [00:26:25] great to have that aspiration. But where’s that journey to get to that greatness? Yeah. Like no one [00:26:30] leaves uni and is great at everything. It takes time. Like you said to me, five years is still a recent grad. [00:26:35] I feel like five years I’ve been through the tracks like I’ve done a lot. But I agree it’s not that much [00:26:40] time right there is. I didn’t think there was anyone showcasing that [00:26:45] young journey all the way up to that. And I think you can aspire to be great [00:26:50] and compare, but comparison can be the thief of joy and you can be like, why am I not as good as dentist X? [00:26:55] Dentist X is 25 years post-grad?

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So I for me it comes down [00:27:00] to are you documenting your journey. Yeah. Yeah. And that that mindset because [00:27:05] I’ve seen several day one dental school posting.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s amazing. [00:27:10]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: But I think like look I got asked I got asked to speak at Joe Lovett’s event. Yes. [00:27:15]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Who’s friends tell me.

[TRANSITION]: Friends who [00:27:20] were.

Payman Langroudi: There. People over there.

Rhona Eskander: You didn’t have any friends? Tell me who you know.

Onkar: It’s all good. I [00:27:25] saw very good reviews for you, actually. Really?

[TRANSITION]: Who sent me all over Instagram?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Tell me.

[TRANSITION]: Instagram. [00:27:30] It’s all good.

Onkar: There’s a lot of good reviews.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. I mean obviously like for me, I have massive imposter [00:27:35] syndrome. So I find it really amazing that a lot of young dentists understand me as what I mean. [00:27:40] Because the thing is, is that I always found that a lot [00:27:45] of dentists my age and older troll me or like, don’t get me. So I find it so [00:27:50] amazing meeting these young dentists and even Payman said, when we started Mind Movers, so [00:27:55] many of the young dentists came up to him and it was it was really amazing for us to hear that, because we know that we’re making [00:28:00] an impact, bringing these conversations to the forefront. And I think the thing is, like, there [00:28:05] are the incredibly talented like George the Dentist. I’m not that dentist, [00:28:10] and I never pretend to be that dentist because my dentistry [00:28:15] is good and my dentist, my patients are at the forefront of my page. And I [00:28:20] think that’s when you really recognise. I had dinner at the Invisalign Live on Friday. This is going to [00:28:25] make both of you laugh, okay? And I sat next to a dentist. I’m not going to say. And I’d say he does pretty good clinical [00:28:30] work. Like he’s he’s up there. But he told me he got a two page message he showed [00:28:35] me because I was beside myself from one of the rubber dam crowd, [00:28:40] basically completely ripping him apart for like, his molar [00:28:45] and like, did you use this? Did you do what was your cavity [00:28:50] prep like? Why wasn’t this like, what are you doing? You shouldn’t where’s the rubber dam [00:28:55] picture? You know, I mean, I was like, oh my gosh, you know, people have that much time on their hands [00:29:00] when you’re at university. You know, like if he wants to put a before and after of his molar, let him the boy [00:29:05] put it.

Onkar: I think I would say it’s not that deep. But to some people it is that deep. And that’s when it comes to thinking [00:29:10] like, do you know what? Actually there’s more to life than teeth. Yeah. And I think but [00:29:15] for some people it’s the epicentre of their universe. Is that. And I again, [00:29:20] I think like this is why I wanted to separate work Instagrams and clinical Instagrams [00:29:25] because I’m like you, I think the reason why like going back to the convo of like you have [00:29:30] a lot of young dentists look up to you is because you keep it real on social. I always felt like you kept it real and I followed you since [00:29:35] I’ve been in dental school. But I think you keep it real and I don’t feel like when you’re on Insta you’re playing a fake [00:29:40] character. It’s actually Rohner talking to the camera. And that’s what I want to do. [00:29:45] And it’s like, students meet me now at uni when I’m teaching and, you know, dentists my age [00:29:50] and like you’re at events, they’re like, you’re like you are on Instagram. I’m not pretending to be someone like, I’m [00:29:55] just being me.

Rhona Eskander: Even cooler in real life. I’m just telling you now I’m just telling. But but I want to.

[TRANSITION]: I want to know the [00:30:00] first.

Payman Langroudi: Time you guys have met.

[TRANSITION]: Real life. Yeah. Oh, no. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Tell me one thing, though. Why did. [00:30:05] And I’d be interested to know why did you choose TikTok as your platform to blow up?

Onkar: I [00:30:10] you know, I always liked Insta, but TikTok happened by itself. I literally, honestly, [00:30:15] I posted a video one lunchtime. I put my phone down.

[TRANSITION]: Was it turkey?

Onkar: It was about, uh, [00:30:20] jaw trainers. Yeah, like those rubber things that you chew on. Yeah. I literally remember [00:30:25] making a video in lunchtime. I put my phone down for 20 minutes, I opened my phone and I was in a hospital job at this [00:30:30] point that had a no social media policy. So they were like, you can’t post, you can’t have TikTok’s, you can’t [00:30:35] have Instagram. There was something that happened the year before me in this, in this hospital, and I [00:30:40] was like, oh, I hope no one ever finds this TikTok page. And I put my trust it to be [00:30:45] that video that I filmed in a clinical room. Yeah, in the hospital. But no one was there. It [00:30:50] was just me in the room with the white wall. Yeah, but, you know, I’m wearing my NHS lanyard at this point.

Rhona Eskander: Did you get in trouble? [00:30:55]

Onkar: Well, 20 minutes later, I had 30,000 views. But what happened.

Rhona Eskander: At the university? The hospital.

Onkar: All the [00:31:00] dental nurses that work in the hospital found the video. They forward it to each other in the dental nurse group chat. And that hospital. [00:31:05] Um, nobody pulled me up. I actually went to the consultant and I was like, look, I do social [00:31:10] media. This has happened. Like, this is my phone. This is me. You can’t there’s no data anywhere. It’s just me in [00:31:15] the clinic room. And they were like, it is what it is. As long as you don’t breach rules and you’re not, they’re [00:31:20] not. But I was so nervous that as that video got like 8 million views [00:31:25] or something. And then that just snowballed. And I was like, oh God, I could do something with this. [00:31:30] As you know, as long as I don’t take everything to heart and every bad comment to heart, I could do something with this.

[TRANSITION]: I think [00:31:35] what’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: About TikTok that you probably hate the fact, right? Not [00:31:40] hate. But with TikTok you don’t need followers to get views, you know? Now you know. [00:31:45]

[TRANSITION]: Instagram’s.

Payman Langroudi: Turning that way too.

Rhona Eskander: So I think that Instagram TikTok is much better for [00:31:50] my mental health than Instagram is.

[TRANSITION]: Right?

Payman Langroudi: But what I’m saying is you’ve put in this ten years.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, no.

Payman Langroudi: Work into Instagram. [00:31:55]

[TRANSITION]: And and I can’t.

Rhona Eskander: Grow and on TikTok and grow in a year.

[TRANSITION]: Right. Okay. Perfectly.

Rhona Eskander: That’s [00:32:00] that’s why I love it. I’m like TikTok. Instagram is you know, Instagram is really annoying because Instagram [00:32:05] will favour those people that, um, have grown back in the day. So I have a friend [00:32:10] of mine, millions of followers, she posts I’m not joking on rotation, the three [00:32:15] same stories, the three thousands of likes and beat [00:32:20] millions of likes posted the same stuff. I wouldn’t get that because she grew it in 2012 [00:32:25] whenever Instagram started. You see what I mean?

[TRANSITION]: You grow it.

Rhona Eskander: Oh, I started Instagram in 2016. [00:32:30] 15, 16. Yeah. So you know.

[TRANSITION]: But TikTok is.

Payman Langroudi: The heroine [00:32:35] of, uh, social media. I mean, it’s.

[TRANSITION]: It’s.

Onkar: But there’s that there’s that theory, right, [00:32:40] that the new generation have a ten second attention span because they will swipe, swipe, swipe. And I [00:32:45] feel like it’s true, like we are so addicted to swiping that we actually don’t want to [00:32:50] pay attention to anything long enough. And then that’s why everyone’s now been diagnosed with certain neuro divergences, [00:32:55] because we’re all so addicted to a quick burst of dopamine, right? Which is also what I read [00:33:00] in a book recently, which is dopamine.

[TRANSITION]: It’s amazing. Yeah, yeah, such [00:33:05] a good.

Rhona Eskander: Animation.

Onkar: Dopamine nation is an.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing book, and.

Onkar: It talks about all of our [00:33:10] attention spans and how we just want instant gratification.

[TRANSITION]: It’s like you always want to be on a high.

Rhona Eskander: Always, always.

Onkar: And [00:33:15] it was like an incredible book.

[TRANSITION]: I mean, I’m.

Payman Langroudi: I’m in it for the dopamine.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: I’m [00:33:20] in it maybe 30 times a day. At the same time, we sit for two hours and talk [00:33:25] like this.

Onkar: I prefer this though.

[TRANSITION]: Like, I.

Rhona Eskander: Think, you know, it’s. So you won’t even believe this. [00:33:30] I went on this retreat called the Body Camp last week. Did you see.

[TRANSITION]: I saw that. How was.

Rhona Eskander: That? And it was absolutely incredible. [00:33:35] I recommend it to anyone and everyone. I was a bit dubious first because, like, what do we do? Just boot camp for like the whole day. [00:33:40] But what they did was it was so cleverly set up, you know, they had these like pillars of health [00:33:45] when we got there. You know, you get up at 6 a.m., okay, and they make you wear fancy dress [00:33:50] first thing in the morning, and you have to dance to an 80 song and you’re like, what the actual f is this? Yeah, exactly.

[TRANSITION]: Just [00:33:55] wait.

Rhona Eskander: I’ll tell you why in a second. And you had to do that every single day. And by day 4 [00:34:00] or 5, you’re actually having fun. You’re putting on your like mask and you’re like, woo! And then they [00:34:05] make you put your phones away until the afternoon if you want to take it. And you [00:34:10] get more points if you don’t touch your phone. So then you do four hours of exercise in the [00:34:15] morning. So you do like an hour and a half. Then you have breakfast, then you do another workout [00:34:20] and everything’s about like teams working together, all these kinds of things. And you meet really interesting [00:34:25] people. They also every single meal for every single day of that week. You [00:34:30] sit next to a new person every single day. So you’re always split up. So you know everybody [00:34:35] in the entire group. And then they did like mindfulness, gratitude, all that stuff. [00:34:40] They even made us write a letter to ourselves in the future. So it [00:34:45] would be me in six months being like I, it’s been six months since the body count and they give you like, structures, [00:34:50] and now they’re going to post them to us in six months. I can’t even remember what I wrote, right?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Now you might say to me, like, what is [00:34:55] this up? But every single person who had stories trauma felt amazing [00:35:00] after that week and it was so basic, the principles, but we forget it. We [00:35:05] forget it. And you might say, what was that? The whole point of the dressing up? And you’re just like, oh fuck, is this [00:35:10] why they may take life so seriously? Man, I think it’s especially so when you’re there and like, they’re literally [00:35:15] making you wave around to like, ABBA or something. And this outfit 6:00 in the morning, like we wake up [00:35:20] so serious in the morning, you know, I mean, have a bit of fun first thing in the.

[TRANSITION]: Morning, I think.

Rhona Eskander: So it was really [00:35:25] interesting. But I spent guess what? My daily average was on my phone for that whole week.

Onkar: Probably like eight minutes, [00:35:30] 13 minutes. I love that, me, I love that 13 minutes.

Rhona Eskander: And you know what my best friend said [00:35:35] to me? That also is a therapist. That said, Rowan is definitely ADHD. And she said to me, she said to me, you’re actually [00:35:40] so present and so engaging when you ask people questions and their stories. Because guess what? [00:35:45] I had no distractions. I was genuinely interested in everything going on around me.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your screen time [00:35:50] now?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Is it.

Onkar: Back to a after.

[TRANSITION]: Their retreat? Yeah, I’m gonna look now.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Check. [00:35:55] Eight hours a day. What’s yours?

Onkar: I’m gonna check. Mine’s about.

Payman Langroudi: Five. Four. Let’s see. [00:36:00] I don’t know if you listen to a podcast, does it count that as screen?

Onkar: No, that’s not screen time. Unless you’re watching a podcast. Like a video podcast [00:36:05] like yesterday I was.

[TRANSITION]: That was so far today.

Onkar: Yeah. My average is my [00:36:10] average is about five and a half to four and a half depending on the day. If you’re filming content, [00:36:15] it’s like eight, ten hours a.

[TRANSITION]: Day, and then.

Rhona Eskander: You start engaging with the content because you have to do the likes [00:36:20] and the comments and, um, okay, I want you to tell me, though. So you rose to TikTok fame [00:36:25] quite quickly. Yes.

[TRANSITION]: And can we call it TikTok fame?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I really think it is. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: I [00:36:30] like.

Rhona Eskander: That. Like what is it, 23 million views on one video or is it 5 million, something like that. Ten, [00:36:35] 10 million combined.

[TRANSITION]: What’s it about?

Onkar: The Jaw trainer. Every every viral video I’ve done [00:36:40] has been on like something that I reckon like was was a good message behind it, you know. [00:36:45]

[TRANSITION]: So like one.

Rhona Eskander: That interests me the most, the most viral video I saw recently, which I want you to shed a light on, was about [00:36:50] Glamorising Dental School.

Onkar: Oh yeah, that went well.

Rhona Eskander: So let’s talk about that.

[TRANSITION]: Let’s talk.

Onkar: About it. [00:36:55]

Rhona Eskander: So tell me what you meant by that. Why people are how are people glamorising [00:37:00] dental school and why do you think that’s detrimental?

[TRANSITION]: I just think.

Onkar: Like I said it, because I was tired after [00:37:05] a long day of work and I was like, I look like shit. Like I’ve got tooth juice all over me. Like my [00:37:10] hair is a mess and I’m on Tik Tok and the first thing I see is like, come with me to place [00:37:15] a composite veneer at dental school. And they show this lovely view from guy’s hospital [00:37:20] example. Disclaimer it’s just cause it’s got the best view in London. And you know, [00:37:25] you then are seeing these lovely scrubs and beautiful white trainers and these polished individuals [00:37:30] and they make it out to be like they went to uni to do one plastic composite veneer and [00:37:35] they went to the library, got a coffee, sat in the sunshine in the park and went home. And the comments are [00:37:40] literally all dental school is adult art class. Dental school is so slang.

[TRANSITION]: Medical [00:37:45] school.

Onkar: Medical school is where it’s at. Fake doctors like I wish I [00:37:50] did dentistry and I’m like, you need to show what is. Actually when we [00:37:55] would go to a clinic, we’d have to be sitting there for seven hours drilling plastic teeth. We’d get our preps critiqued [00:38:00] by someone who was like, you know, the top of their game you [00:38:05] made to feel like and yet.

[TRANSITION]: Emotionally unstable.

Onkar: And then you feel like crap because [00:38:10] you’ve left a tiny bit of margin somewhere, or you’ve chipped the tooth next door on plastic teeth [00:38:15] that you can take out of a model. Like it’s not that deep. Like I had trauma from the way some [00:38:20] of those tutors would be like, you’ve damaged the tooth next door in real life, you’d get sued for that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, literally, [00:38:25] literally.

Onkar: 22 years old. Like, I’m I should be out having fun with [00:38:30] mates. I’m here drilling teeth at 4:00 on a Wednesday afternoon. You know, like, I [00:38:35] want to do this. Let’s be constructive. So for me, I, I just felt like it [00:38:40] was being glamorised. I think a lot of the as well, like I see a lot of American dental dental creators [00:38:45] and they dental school career is completely different. They do undergrad and they do dental school. Their [00:38:50] training is looks very rigorous. Yeah. But again like so glam they go [00:38:55] in and like lovely fig scrubs. They look good. Yeah. With me to the gym at five in the morning. Then I’ve got, I’ve [00:39:00] got dental.

[TRANSITION]: Lab juice.

Onkar: Green juice, I’ve got dental labs until nine in the morning and I’ve got three composite [00:39:05] veneer cases. I’m like, that isn’t my dental school.

[TRANSITION]: I literally did.

Onkar: Not have that. [00:39:10] You know, I don’t spend.

Payman Langroudi: Any time in America.

Onkar: No. I’ve been a couple of times obviously for holidays and stuff.

[TRANSITION]: But [00:39:15] dental school.

Payman Langroudi: Elective.

Onkar: Elective in Japan.

Rhona Eskander: Oh wow.

[TRANSITION]: How was that?

Onkar: I [00:39:20] loved it, I loved it, I.

[TRANSITION]: Loved Japan, I.

Onkar: Just wanted to do something again. Like, I’ve always been a bit of someone [00:39:25] who wants to go against the crowd and do something different. So all my mates did South America because I’m not [00:39:30] doing that. Let me do the most far away thing from South America I can do. So it was like to Japan and I loved it. Like [00:39:35] it was a complete culture shock. Like because it was so different to going to South America. I wanted [00:39:40] to go to New York initially because we had links with NYU and I was like, I could go to NYU any [00:39:45] time. Yeah, Japan. I’ll never get that link again after I leave uni. And it was incredible. Like [00:39:50] their culture, there is so little culture. Me like literally surgical [00:39:55] wisdom tooth at the end they bow in gratefulness to thank you after you’ve been butchered up. [00:40:00] They’re bowing in gratefulness.

[TRANSITION]: Because they’re.

Onkar: So polite.

[TRANSITION]: Like, but you know.

Rhona Eskander: Japan. So Japan. And [00:40:05] for me really fascinated me. I went there a couple of years ago with a girlfriend, and the culture [00:40:10] for me was so different. You feel that you’re in a different universe. But as Omkar said. The [00:40:15] respect they have for each other as human beings, whether it’s fake or not is unbelievable. [00:40:20] And you see, as a culture, for example, you ask people for directions, we’d ask [00:40:25] them on the tube. It’s very confusing. They’d get off the tube with you to direct you. And then I remember [00:40:30] this girl was walking to us and we were like, no, thank you, we need the toilet. She’s standing outside the toilet waiting for us because [00:40:35] the service that they want to give to one another is so ingrained in them. However, you cannot tip [00:40:40] because tipping is insulting for them. So if they accept a tip, it’s really insulting. And then I came [00:40:45] out of like Japan. And what was interesting is, is because they were so polite, you became [00:40:50] so polite. And then I literally was like, I’m an ass massive cunt. When I come [00:40:55] to London.

[TRANSITION]: I’m going to be polite.

Rhona Eskander: I’m going to walk people to the places. And then [00:41:00] as soon as I hit Heathrow Airport, the first Karen that I come across.

[TRANSITION]: Honestly, it’s.

Rhona Eskander: Like literally moving. [00:41:05] And I’m like baffling to me, like, no, do you know what I mean? And it’s really sad because it shows [00:41:10] you that when we’re kind to one another, it can be super contagious.

Onkar: I think I again, I [00:41:15] completely agree, like I did that that two weeks there, two and a half weeks I loved it. [00:41:20] I went, then went to Hong Kong on my way back home for like a four day stopover. Hong Kong was [00:41:25] like London like you literally. It’s like bish bash. Everyone’s moving around.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, me on my.

Onkar: Way out [00:41:30] of my way, you know? And I was like, I’ve come from this serenity and peacefulness in Japan. Like [00:41:35] their dental school was amazing. Like we went to the factories of like, you know, where they make GC, [00:41:40] like we saw everything.

Rhona Eskander: Do you think the work superior?

[TRANSITION]: Stunning.

Onkar: Like some of the best work I saw was in [00:41:45] Japan? Yeah, I was in awe. I was a fourth year dental student. Like, obviously I was in awe of everything, [00:41:50] you know, but for me, what struck the most was that I don’t understand Japanese, but [00:41:55] even the interactions between supervisors and students, supervisors [00:42:00] and postgrads was lovely. Like, maybe this is me. Maybe I don’t understand Japanese, I don’t [00:42:05] know, but I think, I think there’s a lot of toxicity in dental school. And I will say that to you. [00:42:10] I felt like that. I felt like it was just like a very competitive environment. Regardless [00:42:15] if people wanted to admit to the competitiveness, I sometimes felt like [00:42:20] I’ve never been the person to like, what’s the word like, get happy or like, [00:42:25] you know, enjoy other’s failures.

[TRANSITION]: Schadenfreude. Yeah. Schadenfreude. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Where [00:42:30] you get you get happiness out of. Yeah, yeah.

Onkar: I’m not into that. Like, why are you into that? Why are you revelling in someone’s sorrow? [00:42:35] Okay. Weird. Yeah. Why are people doing that? I don’t know, school. Like, did you hear, like, you know, [00:42:40] did you hear his root canal turned into like, a filling? Hahaha.

[TRANSITION]: Why?

Onkar: Why is that? That, [00:42:45] like, why do you care? Did you know that person?

Rhona Eskander: Dentists love that stuff. Dentists love doing that stuff.

Onkar: Did [00:42:50] that? Like, I just, you know, this person’s behind on their quotas. They might not graduate. It’s like, [00:42:55] why are you saying that with like, a smirk? Why are we talking about things like that? Like, and I [00:43:00] always say this like to to Dental friends especially like when we meet up, naturally the conversation [00:43:05] does turn to work and teeth. But like, can we talk about like also just talk about each other? [00:43:10] How are we? How is our family and friends? How’s things otherwise? But I think dental school has [00:43:15] opened my eyes a lot to like just things. But yeah, Japan was the opposite to that. [00:43:20]

Rhona Eskander: But as you rose to like TikTok fame, were your, um, colleagues, your dental colleagues [00:43:25] being a bit weird with you or a bit jealous?

[TRANSITION]: I had.

Payman Langroudi: A short agenda.

[TRANSITION]: On.

Onkar: Tiktok to just [00:43:30] be real. Like, just be completely real. And I think initially I wanted to be [00:43:35] like the dentist that debunked all the myths. But I think a lot of dentists do that quite well, I think. But what’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Agenda? I [00:43:40] mean, that’s the.

[TRANSITION]: Tactic.

Onkar: Agenda, that agenda.

Payman Langroudi: What do you want to get out of it?

[TRANSITION]: Patient the real no, [00:43:45] no.

Onkar: I don’t care for getting patients through social media that the agenda for me is [00:43:50] to be completely genuine and share the highs and the lows and show that actually the career [00:43:55] that we do is not always roses. And it can be crap days, and you need to take everything [00:44:00] with a pinch of salt, because not everyone’s going to leave and become a fully fledged bougie, private, happy dentist. [00:44:05]

Rhona Eskander: I don’t know, like I might have got it wrong, but I think for me you are a dentist that represents [00:44:10] someone that young dentist can relate to, giving the real stuff. You know, the real stuff, [00:44:15] like taking away the glamour. And on top of that, I think that he provides educational information [00:44:20] to patients as well. You know, like so he’s got two agendas here.

[TRANSITION]: In [00:44:25] it for you, the I.

Onkar: For me, like I just want to share the good with the bad. I get, I get I enjoy [00:44:30] the comments from people that I like. This has been so honest. Like when I hear when I read comments [00:44:35] that are like, this is yeah, I do feel like when people comment like, this is the realest I’ve ever seen [00:44:40] a healthcare individual your age talk about things. The fact you’re sharing your bad days [00:44:45] with us, like it makes me feel better about starting foundation training. I’ve just had a like, I’ve had messages like [00:44:50] I’ve just had a complaint today. The fact you spoke about that, is.

Payman Langroudi: There an element of you wish there was someone like [00:44:55] that to tell you how things are, warts and all? I think you were at that. Yeah.

Onkar: When [00:45:00] I was at foundation training, I felt quite lost. I did feel like I was like, do I chopped into the deep end a little bit, aren’t you? [00:45:05] And I felt like I there was times when I was like, what would happen [00:45:10] if I get complaint or things like that? And your mental health does kind of. Weird [00:45:15] places. So for me there, honestly, there is no agenda. It is just to be real and enjoy making [00:45:20] real content because you can make a lot of Dental content about, you know, turkey [00:45:25] teeth and all of those things. But it’s been done and it’s done well. And I think we all share the same [00:45:30] sentiment with those messages. But I think when you find the authentic content that works well, which is me putting [00:45:35] my phone down and just talking like a podcast to the camera, that’s been doing a lot better. [00:45:40] I always get Karens that hate me on there and like they.

[TRANSITION]: Think, do you care anymore? No.

Onkar: I [00:45:45] told you earlier, like I’ve stopped replying to trolls now, right?

[TRANSITION]: Like he was.

Rhona Eskander: Like he started actually giving and he’s not even being [00:45:50] polite to the trolls because he just feels like, why should I? Why should I? Why should they.

[TRANSITION]: Ask like that.

Payman Langroudi: Publicly? [00:45:55]

[TRANSITION]: Um, just an example. So I don’t.

Onkar: Ever privately DM trolls back because I think [00:46:00] that’s strange. But like, I’ve had people say like, you know, you’re fake dentist. [00:46:05] Government dentist. I’ve been like, been called like.

[TRANSITION]: That’s like my.

Onkar: Dentist. [00:46:10] Like the NHS is broken because of people like you, like you’re playing the system. And I’m like, what? Like. And then you [00:46:15] have people being like, you work in central London, you’re a private dentist. And I’m like, I’m majority NHS. [00:46:20] Like I’m a mixed associate. Like, what is this like? Your facts are all wrong. I had someone the other day, I literally [00:46:25] did a video about something, and someone the other day commented something completely random, which was funny of you to talk about [00:46:30] this when your practice charges X for a hygiene clean and I’m like, well, how have you like done [00:46:35] that and that as a statement and inferred that on a video it’s completely opposite. [00:46:40]

Payman Langroudi: Well, how do you feel about private dentists talking about the NHS? Well.

[TRANSITION]: I [00:46:45] did it with you.

Rhona Eskander: I came with you because I wrote out a message that I was going to send to you. Okay. And [00:46:50] because a couple of people, including like some [00:46:55] of the lovely dentists that you’re friends with, were like, I’m really upset at this video. No, no, no, no, no, these cannot [00:47:00] be genuine. As in like genuine nice friends. They were like, I feel like these dentists are talking about you. So sometimes I [00:47:05] get certain stuff. So I was one of and it was amazing because I was sat next to Krüppel, [00:47:10] you know, Krüppel from, um, sensou and Hanel at the Invisalign. And they literally turned around to [00:47:15] me because they are older than me. So they’re like obviously the generation above me. And they were like, like, thank [00:47:20] you so much for what you did for the media, because I was one of the first people [00:47:25] that wanted to shed a positive light on dentistry. Like I was working on my NHS [00:47:30] practice in Kensington. I even contacted a Payman and I was like, how do I get into media? And he was like, bless [00:47:35] her heart. He was like, I will introduce you to your channel because you channel was one of the only people doing at the time. [00:47:40] And then I, I did it myself, as in I was working opposite the Daily Mail [00:47:45] because it was High Street, Kensington.

Rhona Eskander: I started saying to journalists, I want to talk about this. I pitched the ideas [00:47:50] and they turned around to me and they said, no one talks about this. Like the stories about dentistry [00:47:55] are sensationalist butcher headlines. Or you know what, it’s not. And I convince [00:48:00] them to write about it in a positive light. And I started all of that. And I have a massive reputation with [00:48:05] the journalists because I spent that time grafting. I stood outside ITV this [00:48:10] morning and I pitched my ideas. I took Amanda Turner’s story [00:48:15] and, you know, and I treated her where she might have died because of the things that happened. [00:48:20] So then when they ask me to speak, and don’t get me wrong, I went on Piers Morgan’s show, [00:48:25] got scrutinised by Jeremy Kyle, who turned around and basically said, we paid for education. [00:48:30] You’re a private dentist. That’s not an easy position to be in. So when I have dentists being like, you have no right to [00:48:35] talk about the NHS, I feel it’s akin to somebody saying you’re not depressed anymore, [00:48:40] so you can’t talk about depression. But I’ve had depression, so I have worked on the NHS. [00:48:45] I hear what you’re saying, that, you know, I hear what you’re saying.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t have a problem with it. Yeah, I. [00:48:50]

Rhona Eskander: Hear what you’re saying. But I saw your message and.

[TRANSITION]: I post stuff. Yeah, I did.

Rhona Eskander: And I was going to ask you. I was [00:48:55] like, the anchor. And I was going to show you my point of view, like, yeah, if you want to talk about it, go approach the media. [00:49:00] And the thing is, is because why you’re not working in law anymore is [00:49:05] as valid in my opinion, because I did 11 years, I only stopped working on the 2019 [00:49:10] I.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, one year of NHS.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’m still allowed to talk about it. Why can’t I talk about [00:49:15] my my post?

Onkar: My post didn’t say people weren’t allowed to talk about it if they didn’t ever work [00:49:20] for it. And I think I know your story well enough to know that you’ve done the graph. Yeah, I [00:49:25] was inferring that I think it’s easy from an outside point of view to [00:49:30] talk about things when the journey has always been you’ve got time, [00:49:35] you have not had a UDA deadline, you’ve not got a boss breathing down your neck, being [00:49:40] like you’re a thousand days behind. I’m gonna penalise you. Yeah. So my sentiment [00:49:45] from that post was not directed at people like yourself who have done the graft. Yeah, I [00:49:50] just felt when I kept seeing things in the news and I’m like, why can’t [00:49:55] they just get like, none of us nor even like anyone? That’s hair like a random young [00:50:00] country village, you know what I mean? Like someone maybe, who’s their whole life [00:50:05] done that sort of dentistry. He was seeing the struggle and also been through that burnout [00:50:10] period. Because we’re lucky. We have social media. We have reach to an extent. You’ve done the graft, [00:50:15] you’ve camped outside and put up Daily Mail, but if there was someone you know, they [00:50:20] could approach you maybe doesn’t have that, you know what I mean? That doesn’t have that reach and is [00:50:25] just done NHS their whole life. That was my sentiment to bring someone like that onto [00:50:30] TV, to show that other side of the argument, someone who’s just fed up and tired [00:50:35] but maybe doesn’t have that platform to get there, do you know what I mean? And I would have loved to see them get like [00:50:40] a 45 year old Doctor Smith or anyone random. Yeah, I think we’re quite fortunate that we [00:50:45] have this following, um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, uh, Tony Kilcoyne.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Oh, yeah. [00:50:50] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Paul is the most private dentists in the country.

Rhona Eskander: I mean, he’s always a spokesperson.

Payman Langroudi: About the NHS all the time. [00:50:55] Yeah, okay. He’s very involved in BT and education this, that and the other. But [00:51:00] this question of Simon gets it as well. Simon gets on TV [00:51:05] and people say why are you talking about the NHS? You’re not an NHS dentist. It I just think I [00:51:10] can talk about vets. If I want to talk about I don’t have to be a vet to talk about.

[TRANSITION]: No, I think. [00:51:15]

Rhona Eskander: I think I think what you’re what you’re saying is, is that we need to basically have like a balanced view. [00:51:20] And I think that’s why panel discussions are so important. You know, because you could have somebody [00:51:25] like me or Simon or Anchor, but then like give a voice then to the other person that doesn’t [00:51:30] necessarily feel that they have a voice. That’s right.

[TRANSITION]: I do, and I think I wanted.

Rhona Eskander: And I think there is the, the [00:51:35] young dentist that make like meme accounts, like ripping apart like private dentists. That’s not me. And you [00:51:40] know, I get sent this being like, oh, well, they’re talking about you. And I’m like, I don’t even know who these people are. I am doing my job. I’m [00:51:45] helping the public.

Payman Langroudi: On the podcast, on my podcast, Dental Leaders who no one’s ever.

[TRANSITION]: Heard [00:51:50] of sometimes. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: On purpose.

[TRANSITION]: Because give them a platform or.

Payman Langroudi: Because they tell [00:51:55] a story that isn’t a traditionally interesting story. They’ve [00:52:00] been running a practice for ten years. No one’s ever heard of him. Yeah, those stories need to be told. [00:52:05] Just as much as I agree, the TikTok story just as much.

[TRANSITION]: As Prav.

Rhona Eskander: Said to me, surprised that Prav [00:52:10] is my business coach and he’s also Paimon’s business. Um, sorry. Podcast partner. Yeah. And [00:52:15] Prav said to me that one of the most fulfilling and Prav works with very high net worth dentists he’s worked [00:52:20] with. He said one of the most fulfilling stories that he has is of a guy that sold [00:52:25] like a one surgery practice, because he was able to spend time with his family [00:52:30] and like, I think he sold it for like 200 K or something like that, which isn’t the dream for a lot of people. [00:52:35] But he said it was the most fulfilling thing.

[TRANSITION]: It’s meant to him.

Rhona Eskander: It’s what success meant to him. And I think when I think [00:52:40] that that’s the really important thing, I get worried sometimes. The one thing that I think upsets me [00:52:45] and I try to do a video and it flopped on this as well, and I thought, you know what? I have to reflect on [00:52:50] this because maybe I’m being a dick. But I basically said that it was really unfair [00:52:55] for young dentists to get huge profiles and promote work [00:53:00] that they don’t know how to do, because I thought it was really irresponsible. So for example, like promote, [00:53:05] say, like for example, like promote like composite bonding or like veneers that [00:53:10] weren’t their work and they’re not necessarily taking the credit for it, but they’re they’re misleading [00:53:15] the patients and the patients. And then they build up a list of patients, and the patients walk through the [00:53:20] door, and they didn’t even know how to treat the patients.

[TRANSITION]: And they show.

Payman Langroudi: Other people’s cases. Yeah. And [00:53:25] unopposed.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, exactly. And they they like credits it. But what I’m trying to say is, is that.

[TRANSITION]: Inferred isn’t it.

Rhona Eskander: So [00:53:30] what I, what I found was there was a couple of dentists that got jobs, high [00:53:35] jobs and like Harley Street or whatever, these like dream jobs. And the bosses were telling me they were coming to me and be like, [00:53:40] they don’t even know how to do a veneer prep. And they have all these patients from social media that [00:53:45] need all this complex work, but they don’t even know how to do it. They don’t even know how to do the basics. [00:53:50] And I just think that sometimes your ego has let you get that and you do not do this, which is great [00:53:55] because as I said, know you’re really great at this, but I think it can be dangerous because [00:54:00] you’re putting yourself as a professional in a different in a difficult position.

[TRANSITION]: I just think.

Onkar: You [00:54:05] have to be real with yourself and be honest. Yeah. You know, like you all want to do great work [00:54:10] and like pretty work. Yeah. Don’t want to be doing smelly root canals. Let’s be real. [00:54:15] Yeah. And bashing silver fillings in you don’t. Yeah. You want white fillings. Nice teeth, lovely patients who respect [00:54:20] your opinion and your time. Yeah. That’s the goal with most of our jobs. And that is what we [00:54:25] find most dental colleagues enjoy. You know, I want my one hour check-up where I can actually talk to [00:54:30] you, not ten minutes, because it’s been booked in by my manager. Yeah. So on [00:54:35] the flip side of that argument, I completely agree because again, you see it time [00:54:40] to time where you’re on socials and this lovely bonding case has been done, but three weeks [00:54:45] later it’s chipped and someone like yourself is correcting it because the person that did it doesn’t understand how to manage someone’s bike. [00:54:50] You know, I think with me, like the whole social media thing, what I think is really [00:54:55] important is I remember when I had a first experience with like a really negative comment and I [00:55:00] messaged you, you probably don’t remember this, but I had someone on Instagram message me because [00:55:05] I was doing my one of my Max flex jobs. And I remember like at that time I’d started like doing a bit of Invisalign [00:55:10] and just experimenting with simple cosmetic dentistry. And I was really enjoying like simple Invisalign cases. [00:55:15] So I posted a little story. Someone messaged me from a like meme account. [00:55:20] Yeah, like a digital one.

[TRANSITION]: Like a.

Onkar: Username.

[TRANSITION]: 45222.

Onkar: Yeah, like a model from [00:55:25] Google Images as their thing. Yeah, I reverse image, I reverse image search it. And it was a model. It wasn’t then. [00:55:30] And um, it was like, you should remember this, this message word for word. [00:55:35] It was like, you should be ashamed of yourself promoting, um, Covid infection control [00:55:40] and surgical dentistry in your day job as a dental corps trainee, but doing [00:55:45] cosmetic dentistry and, uh, non-essential work in a pandemic [00:55:50] during the weekends, the GDC would not look favourably on this. I’m like, this is someone I know. This [00:55:55] is definitely.

[TRANSITION]: Someone I’ve.

Rhona Eskander: Had this in my.

Onkar: Life. This is someone in the circle, someone from somewhere. [00:56:00] So I was like, do I reply and be like, do I not reply, do I block? And then I got [00:56:05] another message which was like. And also they if they knew you were just the DCT [00:56:10] one, they would never come and see you on X. And then I was like, who is this? Why are you [00:56:15] saying? And I messaged Rhona and I remember this really clearly. I sent you a screenshot and you were like, [00:56:20] clearly you’re doing something right if you’ve got a hater. Yeah. And I was like, you know what, I’m going to channel that energy now because [00:56:25] I did nothing. I was really upset. I actually felt really worried. I was anxious at [00:56:30] work, going into work the next week in the practice, going to hospital jobs. It was [00:56:35] Covid like. Covid was a weird time for dentists, right? Like wearing an ffp3 to do bonding. [00:56:40] It seems crazy now, but back then, those helmet, those helmets we used to [00:56:45] wear because we don’t want to shave. And I’m like, jeez, like I had such awful. Comments. [00:56:50] They actually deactivate and stuff for a bit as well. And it was like always really, really bad because I struggled in [00:56:55] my second job with a lot of things in personal life and blah blah, where I just went off socials completely [00:57:00] for four months and like, screen time went down to like an hour.

[TRANSITION]: Did you feel better?

Onkar: Yeah, I [00:57:05] actually did, yeah. And I reactivated because I was on a night out with my mates and I think they wanted to tag me in [00:57:10] a story. And I was like, you can tag my doctor on, like, I don’t need to be back on my personal account. Yeah. [00:57:15] Um, but I reactivated and I was like, I don’t miss this. I didn’t I didn’t [00:57:20] like opening Instagram because, you know, when you get to like 27, 28, 29. Yeah. So [00:57:25] when you get to that late 20s stage ten years ago.

[TRANSITION]: You was like 25, [00:57:30] 15 for pay. Yeah.

Onkar: Are you scroll [00:57:35] and it’s like, if it’s not bloody teeth or a nice bonding case or someone’s got a nice job, it’s like engagement. [00:57:40] I bought a house, I’ve got a dog and I’m like, I don’t have that, that or yeah, yeah. And I was [00:57:45] like, this is making me feel worse about myself. I hate the job. I hate the job that I was in at that time. And I also hated [00:57:50] everyone on social media at that time. So I deactivated. It was the best thing I ever did.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:57:55] mean, and I guess, like in a way, you’ve channelled your own thing because you’ve brought realness and people [00:58:00] want to see realness. Um, Doctor Arum, who’s my root canal specialist, he absolutely hates [00:58:05] hates Instagram engagements, you know, when the photographer’s there and then [00:58:10] I’m so surprised the why is the photographer there?

[TRANSITION]: Like, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So he sent [00:58:15] me this, like, meme that basically was like saying about this, like about how [00:58:20] fake all of this stuff was. And the thing is, is I think we’ve got to remember that. And like the small designs [00:58:25] and everything, like, I’m not going to show my Dental clinical failures because I don’t want to scare patients. Right. But [00:58:30] if we were real, you know, we get them all the time. Like, like you’ve said many times, which has stuck [00:58:35] with me. Dentistry is a job where the work we can guarantee one thing it will fail [00:58:40] eventually, eventually fails. Yeah. You know, and that’s that, that that’s quite a scary thought, [00:58:45] you know, to know that nothing that you do actually stays permanently.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:58:50] what do you think is the reason that dentists kill themselves?

Onkar: Number [00:58:55] one. I’ve actually thought about this before. Um, number one, probably a high pressured environment. [00:59:00] That’s definitely number one. And number two is expectations from, [00:59:05] I think, expectations, whether it’s you on yourself so personal or whether it’s second [00:59:10] party. So patients, your nurse, your manager, your principal, whatever [00:59:15] that may be okay. Whether you’re a practice owner expectations on yourself. Number three, [00:59:20] I also think I think the number three would be when [00:59:25] you there’s always going to be a point, I think where dentists medical [00:59:30] whatever industry, you’re a high achiever. You’re always been a high achiever. Right. There’s going to be a point where you flop [00:59:35] some point. There’s always going to be a point. No one’s trajectory is always going to be like that. I personally think, yeah. [00:59:40] So I think when you there’s a point when this happens.

[TRANSITION]: In some cases.

Payman Langroudi: Specifically. [00:59:45] I mean, why not? Why not brain surgeons. High pressure to [00:59:50] brain surgeons will have high pressure.

[TRANSITION]: They do.

Onkar: They definitely do. The nature of the beast [00:59:55] with dentistry may also be the fact that it’s a litigious. And like so many complaints that.

[TRANSITION]: Even [01:00:00] medicine, by the way.

Payman Langroudi: They’re not killing. The thing is I [01:00:05] think maybe. What do you.

[TRANSITION]: Think? Also, the patient.

Rhona Eskander: Is awake all the time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: That that yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That [01:00:10] issue.

[TRANSITION]: Brain surgeon. They’re asleep.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah it’s a big difference. It’s a big difference. [01:00:15] You know when you’re saying high pressure I think. Yeah that you know I can say brain surgeon. More [01:00:20] pressure.

[TRANSITION]: Probably. Yeah definitely.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. But in a way a live patient. Yeah. [01:00:25] You’re constantly on tenterhooks. Yeah I know we get used to it and you know, on [01:00:30] an examination. Yeah. But every time you give an injection, you know how many times a day you [01:00:35] do that? Yeah. Every time you do anything.

Rhona Eskander: And I hate this and.

[TRANSITION]: I hate dentist. [01:00:40] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: A combination of that and the four walls. Yeah. You know, brain [01:00:45] surgeons in a hospital. Then it.

[TRANSITION]: Gets it gets.

Onkar: Monotonous, I think.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: When was your mental [01:00:50] health the worst 2022.

[TRANSITION]: Why?

Onkar: So I was working a [01:00:55] job that, like I personally didn’t want to do, to [01:01:00] be completely honest. But I did it because I had no other offers in the bag. So it was still [01:01:05] like another hospital job and it was just like horrific. I didn’t want to be there. I don’t think [01:01:10] they wanted me there. Like, I felt like I was really close with [01:01:15] my grandma and she had passed away like three weeks prior to no three weeks. She literally passed away [01:01:20] the day I started that job. So like, I was very close with her. She died on my birthday. So [01:01:25] it was like, yes, it was like I started that job 2nd of September that evening. The [01:01:30] next day was my birthday. I started this new job. I didn’t want to do that job anyway. That will happen in the back. [01:01:35] There was no I didn’t feel like there was any work. [01:01:40] Support, if I can say that like, I was given like a day off and they were like, have a [01:01:45] day off and come back on Monday and you can help in the general anaesthetic wisdom tooth list. And [01:01:50] I’m like, what? Like I’ve had this thing happen to me. I’m quite traumatised here. Like, you [01:01:55] know, I lost grandparents but I was 6 or 7 like not 27. You know, you you process things a lot [01:02:00] more when you’re older and, you know, almost I was her carer at that times. [01:02:05] You know, I was always there and then that was awful.

[TRANSITION]: I didn’t mean to.

Payman Langroudi: You like, I mean, how did you feel? [01:02:10]

[TRANSITION]: I just, you know, I.

Onkar: Think like for me being when I was like, obviously [01:02:15] now 27 and I think you see like almost the senior of, of, of, [01:02:20] of the family or whatever it may be and they’re reduced to this little person in the hospital bed. I hadn’t [01:02:25] seen that before. I’d worked hospital jobs, I’d done maths facts. Also. I’d read all these things. But when it’s [01:02:30] it’s very easy to detach at work when you know you’re the person giving [01:02:35] the care. There is that element of detachment. When it’s family and you’re helpless, it’s very different, [01:02:40] you know? And when it’s end of life care, that’s also quite stressful to go and see. And I think, [01:02:45] you know, regardless of of what we may do at work, it is stressful. But then, you [01:02:50] know, you come and see this and your home situation is now just as stressful. There [01:02:55] was no sort of, uh, way for me to have a break anywhere. It was awful both times, [01:03:00] you know, everywhere. And I was it was just a lot going on, and I felt like I was in that job. I got [01:03:05] a lot of sort of, you know, energy like that was just not supportive [01:03:10] of, of me at that time. I told them, you know, when I started that job, like, [01:03:15] I want to maybe do medicine, go the whole hog, become a head and neck surgeon, [01:03:20] or just do all surgery and implants and become a specialist. I’m in that kind of unit, right? [01:03:25] No support. Like the first thing I got told was like, we don’t like London graduates.

[TRANSITION]: Like, really? [01:03:30]

Onkar: Yeah. They’re like, why have you come from London to this hospital? And I like, you know, I was like, what? [01:03:35] Like it’s a 20 minute drive from my house. Like, I ranked this job quite high. And [01:03:40] then there’s all these things of politics, politics.

Rhona Eskander: Hospitals, politics.

Payman Langroudi: Then what how did you did. [01:03:45]

[TRANSITION]: You, um, endeavour change? What were your.

Payman Langroudi: Symptoms?

Onkar: So definitely was a very, a very, very anxious [01:03:50] boy. Um, more so than normal baseline anxiety with me from [01:03:55] I always talked about this recently on TikTok, like it was my fifth year of dental school. I first felt anxious, [01:04:00] like I would always have anxiety for certain things. Like at uni when you’ve got a difficult procedure, [01:04:05] like you feel like butterflies, but never like the room is closing in on me. So it was in my fifth [01:04:10] year of dental school. I know, like we literally had a couple of exams for end of years [01:04:15] pending and it was all like DFT recruitment process and there was a lot going on on my plate. [01:04:20] And it was a random day, a random day in December, I was at home revising for exams, literally [01:04:25] went for a haircut and the barber’s chair. You can’t escape, right? You’re tied up. He’s cutting my hair and [01:04:30] the room just started closing and I was going black and I was like, I couldn’t breathe. And [01:04:35] I was like, tell my barber I was like, and let’s get up.

[TRANSITION]: Panic attack, panic attack.

Onkar: Like, I’d never had that before. So it was, [01:04:40] and I’ve read a lot of I love psychology. That was another thing I always was interested in was psychiatry. So that was going to be [01:04:45] my medicine route. That or like something you recognise.

Payman Langroudi: It for what it was at the time.

Rhona Eskander: So [01:04:50] that’s.

[TRANSITION]: Progressive. I thought it was.

Onkar: A hypo because I hadn’t eaten all day. So initially I was like, am I just having a hypo? Like [01:04:55] it was a panic attack, sweating, grey room closing.

[TRANSITION]: In when you.

Rhona Eskander: Left the barber. [01:05:00]

[TRANSITION]: What happened?

Onkar: I went outside to get fresh air and then I went back in the chair because he was like, you look [01:05:05] great. Well, yeah. He was like, go outside, get some fresh air. He gave me some chocolates and he was like, is he a sugar levels? I [01:05:10] don’t know, he’s like, you’re the dental student. I was like, I don’t know. And then I went out, went back in. [01:05:15] He started climbing again, happened again and started climbing again. Again. I was like, I need to just get through this [01:05:20] appointment. Yeah. So had two weeks off for Christmas, which was like, [01:05:25] good. Went back to uni. Rooms started closing in. I’m like, what is? [01:05:30] Why is this happening? I can’t identify why I’m anxious. I was detached, I felt [01:05:35] like I was observing myself from an outsider’s body, like I was floating and I was watching myself [01:05:40] do procedures and I would literally be like, I don’t understand this. I was [01:05:45] getting sweaty. I remember like, palpitations. I’m a very chill [01:05:50] person prior to this. Yeah, like resting heart rate, 48 beats per minute. Like I’m not an athlete, but I was. [01:05:55] I’m always super chill. Nothing makes me nervous. I was so on edge, [01:06:00] I was I couldn’t go to the I honestly, looking back on it now, I was bad, I [01:06:05] couldn’t go to the supermarket. I couldn’t go and walk in the aisles because they would start closing in. [01:06:10] And, um, I remember going in my fifth year to get coffee on [01:06:15] a Saturday at my flat. I lived in Catford in Lewisham because it was between both hospitals [01:06:20] for kings and guys, and my flatmate had gone and I was home alone at the flat and I went to get [01:06:25] lunch and a coffee.

Onkar: I was in subway buying a sandwich. I had to leave. I couldn’t do the order. I actually had to stop [01:06:30] him doing the order. I was like, I need to go. I left and I was like, I was like, I don’t know [01:06:35] what to do. Like, I tried everything, self-help books. I tried taking magnesium supplements, [01:06:40] I tried running more, and I was like, nothing is happening. Like nothing is [01:06:45] helping me. I went to the GP. Gp and the GP [01:06:50] was like, you don’t strike me as anxious. I’m like, why are you saying that as a GP? Like why [01:06:55] that’s not helpful. They basically were like, do you want talking therapy? What [01:07:00] do you think you actually want? I’m like, I just want answers, to be honest. Because, you know, I think there’s [01:07:05] people will deep dive into your childhood and be like, you know, Freudian theory, like, tell me where you [01:07:10] had a bad time. You know, I’m like, I can’t really acknowledge any of that from the [01:07:15] five years of like, the uni experience. I don’t know why that happened in my uni up [01:07:20] to then. It was fine. My A-levels didn’t shake me that much. Yeah, I managed to get [01:07:25] through it and I put it down to exam stress and life stress and uncertainty of not knowing where [01:07:30] I was going to end up having about 20 exams in the space of like three months with the finals of dental [01:07:35] school and just putting a lot of pressure on myself because uni [01:07:40] in that fifth year again, I had like I started, it was actually like I started YouTube. [01:07:45]

Onkar: I remember I tried to start YouTube because YouTube was really hot then, right? So I tried to start a vlogging channel [01:07:50] again. I did one video where I did one video. It was up for 12 hours. [01:07:55] Someone in my year messaged me and was like, just to let you know, there’s been [01:08:00] talk about your video. Um, one of the nurses has seen it, so you might want to put the video down. [01:08:05] Um, next day I get called in and like again, email being like the subject title is [01:08:10] your progression in dental school. And I’m like, I’ve got four months to graduate. Yeah. So January [01:08:15] is the email. We graduated and we finished dental school in May, graduate in June. So [01:08:20] that was another thing in January, in that same awful time, I’ve got this email from the dean of dental school. [01:08:25] Then they were like, you can’t do that. You’re not allowed to do. And that was another thing that made me do [01:08:30] this YouTube Glamorising Dental School on TikTok, because everyone is now a dental school [01:08:35] influencer and they post the unis they go to, you can see the scrubs they wear, you can see the sign of what uni they’re [01:08:40] at. Why was it such a big issue for me to say I go to Guy’s Hospital or back then? [01:08:45]

[TRANSITION]: Back then it was it was less.

Payman Langroudi: Less normal.

Onkar: 2019. It was, you know.

[TRANSITION]: But I don’t think.

Rhona Eskander: They are still [01:08:50] allowed and like again, like I think that’s, that’s that’s the conflict I’ve always had with dental school because. [01:08:55] I, as I said to you, I was good at English literature, philosophy and [01:09:00] drama. I was the main my outlet. I still go to the theatre every [01:09:05] single month because guess what? Acting for me, I want to start improv this year. I [01:09:10] miss acting, so social media was my outlet because it was my creative spark. [01:09:15] And then you go to dental school, you can’t do this part where I get it. We need to be professionals. [01:09:20] We need to be professionals, I get it, but for me, like, there is just like, can we not be human? [01:09:25] But why can we not be humans?

Onkar: Why can’t I wear white trainers though I’m wearing smart trousers. Why can’t I wear white trainers? [01:09:30] Like what? Why do I need to wear black black shoes with buckles on them? Like [01:09:35] I get it, I get it completely, but also it doesn’t affect my ability to be nice to my patients. [01:09:40] That is another scrap. I had a lot with dental school. I was like, why are you telling me that I can’t?

Rhona Eskander: I’m pretty [01:09:45] sure in uni they also told us we’re not allowed to have visible tattoos.

[TRANSITION]: We have allowed not allowed tattoos.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Visible [01:09:50] tattoos.

Onkar: Not allowed tattoos. Not like piercings. The boys can’t have, like, you know, beards. Beards. [01:09:55] And I was like, this is weird. This is really weird. Like, I don’t get it, you know? And I’m quite an expressive [01:10:00] person.

Payman Langroudi: There is a line.

Rhona Eskander: I think, listen, what.

[TRANSITION]: Would be what would [01:10:05] be your red.

Rhona Eskander: Line? I think right at the end of the day, if you are being treated [01:10:10] by a professional person. Yeah. And a professional person is someone [01:10:15] that you trust, there is a degree of you somewhat judging the way that they [01:10:20] look and what they present. Okay. Would you agree?

Onkar: I think. I [01:10:25] don’t know, because for me it.

[TRANSITION]: Would be a red line.

Payman Langroudi: And if you went to visit a site.

[TRANSITION]: For example, I saw [01:10:30] a surgeon, or if.

Rhona Eskander: You see that Tik Tok video of that girl that had a devil’s tattoo [01:10:35] here, and the devil’s tattoo had like, blood. And I think there was like animals dying. [01:10:40] She was covered in tattoos and piercings and she was like, I went to TK Maxx. Tk Maxx rejected [01:10:45] me. And the reason why TK Maxx rejected was clearly because of my tattoos. And this is like a judgement. [01:10:50] Yeah, but like you look a bit scary. Like if you’re going to be like attending people [01:10:55] like customers are going to be affected.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, I’m going to tell you something that I did tell.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, God.

Payman Langroudi: Regarding tattoos. [01:11:00] Yeah. What did. But but so if someone would come for an interview and enlighten [01:11:05] with a tattoo that you couldn’t easily hide, you wouldn’t. I would question [01:11:10] their judgement.

Onkar: On that tattoo. Yeah, or just a general.

[TRANSITION]: General. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Because [01:11:15] if you’re putting a tattoo somewhere where you can’t hide it, like here. Yeah. On your own.

[TRANSITION]: I’d love to [01:11:20] like, love it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But now they’re much more normalised. But, you know, maybe ten.

Rhona Eskander: Years ago. [01:11:25]

Payman Langroudi: Longer. 15 years ago. Yeah. If I could see tattoos that you couldn’t hide at all. Impossible [01:11:30] to hide.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Side of your neck. Yeah. I would question that.

[TRANSITION]: Person if you were.

Rhona Eskander: If [01:11:35] you saw a psychiatrist and they were covered in tattoos from [01:11:40] like here. Yes. To like here, for example. And piercing. How would you feel. [01:11:45]

Onkar: Like I think the question to hit you back with is, do they make me feel good? Do they answer my clinical [01:11:50] questions? Do I feel.

[TRANSITION]: Safe? You can’t judge at all.

Onkar: No not really. I don’t really care.

Payman Langroudi: My position on that. I’m [01:11:55] like, you know that it’s everywhere. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Like if I look at my piercings.

Rhona Eskander: And tattoos.

[TRANSITION]: You know, [01:12:00] I mean, if I.

Onkar: Go to someone for like regardless of their job role, if someone’s doing a good job and they’re taking [01:12:05] care of their clients or patients or whatever, I’m not really. My opinion is minuscule. [01:12:10] You know, I okay.

Rhona Eskander: I agree completely, but also I, I totally agree with you on the thing of like appearance. [01:12:15] And if you come to my clinic, it was funny I.

[TRANSITION]: Central.

Rhona Eskander: I mean there’s Prav told you.

[TRANSITION]: I’ve [01:12:20] seen you.

Rhona Eskander: The thing is, is like I’ve been called in. People want to do television [01:12:25] programs about my clinic because they were like, oh my God, like, you are literally lgbq. [01:12:30]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, like body.

Rhona Eskander: Sizes, because I have always judged every [01:12:35] single one of my staff based on their merit and based on like how [01:12:40] they treat patients. And it works really well because my team is so, so diverse. [01:12:45] Now, the one thing that I would say is, is that I think there’s an important [01:12:50] question to be posed for presentation. Right. And what I mean by that is somebody that’s at least [01:12:55] clean, because I think that that’s a form of self-love and self-care. Like, you know, that you [01:13:00] showered and you brushed your hair, for example. I think those things do matter because it also shows how [01:13:05] the person is feeling about themselves and their own kind of sign of like self-respect, [01:13:10] their mental state of mind. Can they look after other people? You see what I mean? That’s what I think, that I draw the [01:13:15] line if I.

[TRANSITION]: Don’t know, personal hygiene. Yeah.

Onkar: Yeah, I think that’s pretty important.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:13:20]

Onkar: I think so.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it even comes up in marketing, right, when we’re doing these pictures. Yeah. The [01:13:25] last evolution we said let’s not have pretty people. Yeah. Let’s have [01:13:30] people who are just let’s have normal people. People real not even have pretty smiles. Just have the estimates. Right. [01:13:35] And let’s let’s have the.

Onkar: Man I love it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s have tattoos. [01:13:40] Yeah. When we went into it. Yeah, we, we we [01:13:45] lost our bottle and we thought what’s our distributor in Kuwait going to say.

Onkar: Yeah you have to [01:13:50] take cultural. No I completely agree.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah I think Gen Z are really challenging the norms, [01:13:55] which is great. But how did you get out of this mental state of the panic attacks?

Onkar: I think for me, like, [01:14:00] I’ll be honest, when I started, when I finished dental school and I was away from that high again, that [01:14:05] pressure situation of constant exams, they fizzled away themselves. So you.

Rhona Eskander: Didn’t go on medication.

Onkar: Didn’t [01:14:10] go on meds. I looked up what I was doing, which was behavioural, a lot [01:14:15] of caffeine. Like I drink like 4 or 5, six coffees a day. I’m pretty bad for it. Yeah. And I was still doing that in uni. [01:14:20] Fizzy drinks containing caffeine, all of these things that were like stimulant to try and, uh, think what is making [01:14:25] me feel worse. So cut out caffeine, cut out all of that. Try to be try to be a lot better with things. Took [01:14:30] up a lot more exercise, which doesn’t work for everyone. Yeah, I read a lot of anxiety [01:14:35] psychology books as well. Like a lot of subtle mind mind books to feel better. And I started ashwagandha. [01:14:40] Ashwagandha.

[TRANSITION]: I’ve heard that really helps.

Onkar: Which is I’ve been on and off that for about [01:14:45] four years now. What is.

[TRANSITION]: It? Actually?

Onkar: It’s the natural supplement, which.

[TRANSITION]: Basically massive.

Rhona Eskander: In our [01:14:50] Vedic.

[TRANSITION]: Practice.

Onkar: It reduces if I’m mistaking me, if I’m incorrect, [01:14:55] it reduces your stress response to little stressors. So like your baseline and your it’s like [01:15:00] essentially keeping you at a good baseline where you don’t have all those cortisol spikes. You’re [01:15:05] not meant to be. It’s a no a no tropic, a no tropic, whatever you call it, you don’t you don’t want to be on it forever. [01:15:10] You need to take breaks. So like I’m this is not clinical advice, but like, you know, a month off, month [01:15:15] on blah, blah, blah, you know, and that really helped me along with magnesium good sleep. But then they bloody [01:15:20] started again in 2022 when I started that awful job. And then that was a. Again, [01:15:25] like, oh my God. Like what? Where do we go from here? You know, like driving and having panic attacks [01:15:30] and I’ve never been medicated. I think I’d like I maybe [01:15:35] would I like a formal diagnosis of something I think it’d be. Does it help you have this discussion earlier? Do you feel [01:15:40] more diagnoses help people? Sometimes I think they do.

Rhona Eskander: The ADHD thing did help me because I think the like [01:15:45] erratic nurse and everything that I’ve been experiencing. But the problem is I’ve not worked [01:15:50] out. I found it empowering to know that, but I’ve not worked out and I’m not in a position where I want to take medication. [01:15:55] So I think that I am finding it really hard to manage. [01:16:00] But I spend thousands on my mental health, like literally thousands. And obviously [01:16:05] doing this podcast in a way has also helped because even by connecting with people and understanding [01:16:10] or connected is super helpful. Anchor I could talk for hours. You have [01:16:15] been amazing at this podcast, like thank you. And what does the future hold? [01:16:20] So where would you like to be in five years?

Onkar: I think five years is probably maybe finding [01:16:25] the agenda, finding the why is really important. I think I still feel like I probably [01:16:30] don’t know my why completely right. And I think that’s natural. I think we need to take that [01:16:35] idea of everyone knows their why straight away, away. That’s not true. Okay, maybe not for me. [01:16:40] I like to continue just being happy in work, whether that involves teeth or not. Who knows? Yeah, [01:16:45] but I want to just develop to a point where. Where I may be really rose [01:16:50] tinted. I go into work every day and I’m looking forward to it. Do you know what I mean? And you’re not at the [01:16:55] minute. There’s times when I’m not know if I’m being real. There’s times I’m not. I know 35 patients a day where I’m like ten [01:17:00] minutes up. So I’m not looking forward to that. I’ve got stuck at work at 8:00 until doing notes. Yeah, [01:17:05] I want to just be happy. And I want to make sure that regardless [01:17:10] of whatever’s going on in personal life, that career is always, and I think sounds again, really idealistic. [01:17:15] Some people are lucky enough to have, you know, their job, be their break time, go to work. You can [01:17:20] kind of zone out. You love that. I’d like to get there in five years. I’m hoping they’re hoping that that kind of [01:17:25] comes to fruition. So yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing. Thank you so much for coming on.

[TRANSITION]: My thanks so much for seeing me. [01:17:30] Thank you.