Month: August 2024

Dr. Tara: I hop on Tinder, and literally the first person I found I got married to him. Yeah. Wow. I [00:00:05] wouldn’t say it was a mistake because I learned a lot from it, but definitely something that I didn’t take the time. [00:00:10] I ignored all the red flags, the red flags, and to be honest, he’s a great guy, [00:00:15] just not a great guy for me. We weren’t compatible, but I ignored everything [00:00:20] because he was so great on paper. He was handsome, tall, wealthy, and [00:00:25] he was really into me. That’s it. Checked all the boxes. Let’s get married. We got married in six months. [00:00:30]

Rhona Eskander: Where did it start to go wrong?

Dr. Tara: After a year of being married, I had this sense of, like, [00:00:35] guilt that this is not the person for me.

Rhona Eskander: Why?

[VOICE]: This [00:00:45] is mind movers [00:00:50] moving the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation [00:00:55] for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:01:00] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Hello [00:01:05] everyone! Welcome to another episode of Mind Movers and I am so excited [00:01:10] to have the incredible Doctor Tara on with us today. Tara [00:01:15] is actually the presenter on Celebs Go Dating. She is here all the way from LA [00:01:20] and she is making waves. And that’s not just on national television, but also with what she’s [00:01:25] doing within the sphere of social media. She’s been navigating love and sex life, particularly [00:01:30] around Gen Z, having open conversations that we’ve never had before. Doctor Tara is [00:01:35] also a professor? Yes, a professor at a university in the [00:01:40] States, and she is an expert in her own right. And I’m just too [00:01:45] excited to have this conversation with her. So welcome, Doctor Tara.

Dr. Tara: I’m excited to be here.

Rhona Eskander: It is so [00:01:50] wonderful to have you here. So I have so many questions. Right. And the first question is where I like to start [00:01:55] from the beginning. How did you end up becoming a sex expert?

Dr. Tara: Short. Short [00:02:00] answer or long answer?

Rhona Eskander: Give us the long answer because we’re going to be here for a while.

Dr. Tara: Yeah, [00:02:05] I mean, I love telling this story because then people can really understand where I come from. And, you [00:02:10] know, all of the the cumulative experiences that I’ve had in life that are very different. [00:02:15] Yeah. So I actually I’m like you said, my last name is really long. I [00:02:20] tried porn.

Rhona Eskander: Has porn on the end.

Dr. Tara: Porn porn at the end. [00:02:25] Because in Thai culture, in Thai language, porn means a blessing.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I love that. [00:02:30] There we go. Porn means a blessing in Thai culture.

Dr. Tara: I usually say that in the university class that I teach [00:02:35] and I usually have like a boy student says it’s a blessing for me too.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I [00:02:40] love that so much.

Dr. Tara: I’m like, shut up. But I’m originally from Thailand. [00:02:45] I grew up very religious Buddhist in Bangkok with my [00:02:50] very loving parents. I have an older sister, but with within this [00:02:55] very loving context. There’s still so much repression around being [00:03:00] a girl and around, um, sexuality, sexuality [00:03:05] and being interested in dating and sex and naked bodies [00:03:10] and body parts and whatnot. So I went to an all girls Catholic school from [00:03:15] like the very beginning of time, like from first grade, uh, up [00:03:20] until I finished middle school. And in all girls Catholic [00:03:25] school, you learn a lot of these, um, subliminal, subliminal [00:03:30] messages about your body as a girl. Right. So our uniforms have [00:03:35] to, like, cover our wrists and our knees because knees are sexy, and [00:03:40] you don’t want to be provoking men. So it’s these little things that I [00:03:45] grew up with that really cemented this idea that when you’re a girl. [00:03:50] Well, number one, you are inferior to men. Number two, you have to cover [00:03:55] yourself always because you don’t want to be provoking them. And number [00:04:00] three, you should be. You should not be interested in anything related [00:04:05] to sexuality because that’s that’s a sin and that it’s [00:04:10] related to being a bad woman. You want to be a good woman. You want to be a wife [00:04:15] material woman. So these were cemented to me since a young age, and I grew [00:04:20] up on those messages. I grew up believing that that’s true. So I was always striving [00:04:25] for just trying to be the best I can be a good girl in [00:04:30] that context.

Rhona Eskander: So I had to interrupt you there because I actually have [00:04:35] a very similar upbringing. So I’m. I went to a Catholic school. Oh my God. [00:04:40] My parents are Middle Eastern, and there was so much Christian guilt [00:04:45] growing up, and it actually got so bad at one point in my life that my dad’s family kind of cut me and [00:04:50] my sister out, blamed my mother because we didn’t marry into, like the church community [00:04:55] and we didn’t get like, I just got married and my sister, um, still [00:05:00] isn’t. And we lived with partners out of wedlock. And I’m actually now [00:05:05] trying to process the Christian guilt that I grew up with because [00:05:10] everything that I did also was this subliminal message that you are submissive [00:05:15] to a man, and if you tempt a man, it is your fault. But you also have to please a man at the same time. [00:05:20] And then all this stuff has made me really think about the patriarchy and what [00:05:25] a woman’s role is, and the lie that women get uglier and less sexy in their [00:05:30] 30s and 40s where I’m like, well, hang on. Actually, I feel hotter and sexier now than I [00:05:35] did in my 20s, so that’s a lie, you know? So that’s a lie. So yeah, I just had [00:05:40] to kind of share that. I really resonate with. What was going on in your childhood.

Dr. Tara: I love that, I [00:05:45] love that because, you know, I can feel your energy when you enter the room. And I’m like, [00:05:50] wow, this.

[TRANSITION]: Is.

Dr. Tara: This is a confident woman who has worked on herself and is [00:05:55] working on herself. And I’m the same way, right? Like, you never stop learning and growing and and and [00:06:00] working on yourself. And I love that. Thanks for sharing.

Rhona Eskander: No thank you. And so continue going [00:06:05] on. Yeah.

Dr. Tara: So then I was able to leave [00:06:10] Thailand. Then I went to school in Finland and that was the very first time I encountered, [00:06:15] um, I guess more of a neutral, neutral [00:06:20] ground between men and women, boys and girls, because their culture is [00:06:25] very egalitarian, very like equality based, like gender equality, and also very [00:06:30] body neutral, because one of the main practices in Finland [00:06:35] is using the saunas and they all get naked, completely [00:06:40] naked to go into the saunas. They don’t do like, you know, the towel or [00:06:45] the bathing suit. Yeah, just completely naked and going to a sauna and no one looks [00:06:50] at each other because it’s just so freaking common. Like, why would you look at anyone, stare at anyone [00:06:55] or, like, sexualise anyone? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because if you are young and you’re in the sauna [00:07:00] with, like, your grandparents, then it’s like it doesn’t mean anything. Yeah. And when I [00:07:05] was there, that is the biggest thing I discovered is like, wow, I don’t have to feel ashamed [00:07:10] of my body when I’m naked or I have to cover myself, or that I’m [00:07:15] sexualised in some way. It’s just a body. Yeah, and I love body [00:07:20] neutrality even now. Yeah, that is how I live my life, because I appreciate [00:07:25] body positivity. Yeah. However, not every day you’re gonna feel like Beyoncé. [00:07:30] Yeah. Exactly right. I don’t wake up feeling flawless sometimes, you [00:07:35] know? So I really love body.

Rhona Eskander: Even Beyonce feels like Beyonce every day.

Dr. Tara: Exactly. So I really love [00:07:40] body neutrality and just being grateful for my body for its functions. So [00:07:45] that’s kind of my first like, wow, there’s different thoughts in the world. So [00:07:50] experiencing thought, diversity, something else that’s just not where I’m [00:07:55] from. Is that something you had as well? Like when you get older.

Rhona Eskander: To be to be honest with you, [00:08:00] I think it’s something that I still unfortunately live with. I think that what happened was, is [00:08:05] that being of a middle eastern family, like I come from a lot of generational [00:08:10] trauma. My grandmother was Miss Universe. My mother, my mother was [00:08:15] a model. My grandmother was a narcissist. So my mother suffered a lot from neglect and not feeling good [00:08:20] enough. She went on to be a model, but definitely, I think up until really the Kim Kardashian [00:08:25] era Middle Eastern women were also put under a lot of pressure to look [00:08:30] a certain way. So for example, yeah, I look.

Dr. Tara: Really skinny or. [00:08:35]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, so like I naturally genetically have always had bigger hips, bigger bum, [00:08:40] thicker thighs, all that stuff, you know? And I went to university and I got offered [00:08:45] to do some modelling and I did some casting and I was surrounded by the archetypal Kate Moss [00:08:50] type of girl. That was the beauty standards of the 90s. And, you know, [00:08:55] there were comments that you should lose weight or I’d see the girls pinching their thighs and I’d never really been introduced. [00:09:00] I mean, my parents were also like, oh, in a loving way, you know, like lose a little bit [00:09:05] of weight here and there. But that’s because of their own conditioning, right?

Dr. Tara: Same, same as my mom.

Rhona Eskander: So I [00:09:10] had to shrink myself. And I ended up having an eating disorder in my 20s and [00:09:15] restrictive eating. And I think at the time I was like, I’m just healthy. And unfortunately, I [00:09:20] was given this feedback loop where the more weight I lost, the more praise I’d get.

Dr. Tara: And [00:09:25] I think, oh, like, you’re so skinny. You look so.

Rhona Eskander: Good. Correct, correct. And then that [00:09:30] that for me, made me feel a lot of shame around being naked, because number one, [00:09:35] I felt like my body didn’t look like the other people around me. You know, the 90s, like body dysmorphia. [00:09:40] Yeah. And I think that also there was shame, right? Because for me, Imagine [00:09:45] this I actually did not believe in sex before marriage, because that was what [00:09:50] was taught to me within the realms of Christianity. And I remember my dad, he’s a gynaecologist. [00:09:55] I mean, things have changed. But he sat me down in this pub and he was like, I’m going to show you, [00:10:00] um, how babies are made and what happens here. And he’s like in a pub, you know, imagine he [00:10:05] told me like, like with a diagram. And then he turned around and he said, men like women [00:10:10] that are virgins. Right. And I remember I was like 12.

Dr. Tara: So even that that’s misogynistic.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. [00:10:15] And like, but you know, like and the thing is now it’s like I’m like, I mean, I ended up asking my dad to help me, like with the pill and [00:10:20] stuff when I was like 25. But the point is, and we have an open relationship. And I think he [00:10:25] also understood that that conditioning wasn’t realistic for like the time we were living in. But [00:10:30] that guilt meant for me that I only saw sex as something [00:10:35] that was for a man. So if a man proves to you that he wants to be in a [00:10:40] committed relationship with you or wants to marry you, your gift to him then? Is sex. That [00:10:45] is the psychology I grew up with. Do you see what I mean? Right. So there was nothing about embracing [00:10:50] your own body, understanding your own body, pleasuring your own body. That stuff never [00:10:55] happened for me during the teens and the 20s.

Dr. Tara: Oh, gosh. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So that’s [00:11:00] what happened, like in answer to your question. But yeah.

Dr. Tara: Yeah. No, you know, I have similar [00:11:05] experience with body dysmorphia and like not loving [00:11:10] my body, especially in the era, I assume we’re the same age because Kate [00:11:15] Moss was also kind of our, you know, um, the archetype of beauty. Yeah. [00:11:20] That’s the goal. Yeah, right. Like, she’s the it girl. She’s cool, she’s [00:11:25] pretty. You want to be like her. And interestingly, on Celebs Go Dating last series, we [00:11:30] had Lottie Moss on the show, Kate’s little sister, and she [00:11:35] said similar things of like, you know, I was comparing myself to her and like, you know, [00:11:40] I’m I have, you know, I don’t remember exactly what she said, but along the line of my body [00:11:45] is different. How we feel? Yeah. It’s like, no, we’re not Kate Moss. Yeah. Um, which [00:11:50] was so interesting how that has affected millions and millions of girls around the world, because [00:11:55] at that point you were here in England, I was in Thailand. But we’re all affected [00:12:00] by that body. How insane is that? I think, though.

Rhona Eskander: That’s the difficulty. I mean, we’ll go on to [00:12:05] the social media thing because I don’t want to deter too much from it. But if you really think about it, [00:12:10] the problem is with trends is that we are so heavily invest in what the trends [00:12:15] say, and it’s so transient, because when Kim Kardashian came along, everyone [00:12:20] suddenly was like, I really like your. But I’m like, I’ve been told my whole life, my butt’s too big. And then my mom’s [00:12:25] generation would still be like, your butt’s too big. But then the generation that were like, no, Kim K has come along. She’s [00:12:30] saying, big butts are cool. I’m like, okay, like, now everyone wants my butt. Exactly. So what I’m trying to say is, like, it changes [00:12:35] all the time. Like now. Like, even for men. Like, I feel sorry for men, like, all the time. We [00:12:40] talk about the patriarchy and misogyny, but to be honest, even for men, the immense amount of body [00:12:45] image pressure on a man. Yeah. You know, like even think about the finance song six foot five [00:12:50] Blue Eyes, you know what I mean? Like, now.

Dr. Tara: That’s whatever you are, like, short and don’t.

Rhona Eskander: Make good money. Yeah. The thing [00:12:55] is, is like we also have. But it comes and goes, but then someone comes along, [00:13:00] I don’t know Tom Holland who’s like, not six foot five and Blue Eyes and then everyone’s like, oh no, actually, like that’s [00:13:05] the thing to follow. So I always say, like, it’s so easy to get drawn into the kind [00:13:10] of body image trends. And of course we’re going to go into it. But like loving your body is really important. But I’d love to understand [00:13:15] how the sauna experience kind of helped you further. So yeah. So tell me how it changed your perception. [00:13:20]

Dr. Tara: Basically, that’s the start of my journey of like discovering [00:13:25] the differences in thoughts and ideas and how I [00:13:30] can form my own identity. Um, from then on, I went to [00:13:35] university, I moved to Los Angeles, went to university. Universities. I got my master’s. And [00:13:40] what.

Rhona Eskander: Was your master’s.

Dr. Tara: In? My master’s in human communication, but particularly looking at interpersonal [00:13:45] interaction and cross-cultural interaction. So I was always fascinated of people of different [00:13:50] cultures interacting, because I know that the world is becoming more and more global. And how [00:13:55] can we understand all of these interpersonal conflicts people have from different [00:14:00] people, from different cultures? But I was also studying different relationship aspects. I was studying [00:14:05] the very first paper I published as an academic was when I was a master’s student, [00:14:10] and I published an article on a study that I did on long term long distance [00:14:15] relationships, because I was then in a long distance relationship, and I wanted to research [00:14:20] effective strategies in long distance relationships. So I was always researching and studying [00:14:25] romantic relationships, but in my PhD. So I moved to [00:14:30] Phoenix and I moved to Arizona State University.

Rhona Eskander: Well, your parents okay with [00:14:35] all this studying, like understanding that you were really exploring the notions of like [00:14:40] the human body and relationships. I mean, considering the background that you came from, what you told me, like, how were [00:14:45] they? Were they receptive to the things that you were studying?

Dr. Tara: Not at the beginning. Not at the beginning. I think they, [00:14:50] for the lack of a better word, I think they wish I was more serious. Yeah. In their standards. [00:14:55] Right. Like they feel like what I was studying wasn’t that serious.

Rhona Eskander: Typical immigrant [00:15:00] mindset. Be a doctor, a lawyer or an engineer.

Dr. Tara: Right, exactly. Like, why don’t you study medicine? Yeah, [00:15:05] medicine. Or like, even researching something like, you know, public policy or, you know, [00:15:10] why are you studying relationships? But I told them long term study, longitudinal [00:15:15] study by Harvard found the most important thing in life is relationships. Yeah, not [00:15:20] your career, not money. It’s good to have resources. Of course, it makes you get all the conveniences. [00:15:25] But relationships is the most important thing in life, so why wouldn’t I study it? But [00:15:30] I went to get my PhD the last year of my PhD. It was on a job market, [00:15:35] and that was really like just a few jobs at the same at that time for a tenure track professor job. [00:15:40] I’ve at that point, I’ve always known for the last like five years that I would become a professor [00:15:45] because in my back in my master’s degree, my advisor was telling me, like, Tara, for [00:15:50] someone who doesn’t even speak English as her first language, you are really good teacher. Because back in the [00:15:55] master’s degree, I was already as like teach as an instructor, like a Ta. Um, so [00:16:00] in the last year of my PhD, I basically applied for [00:16:05] these like few jobs that existed during that time. And I basically got all the jobs [00:16:10] I got every job. So then it was about where do I want to live? Mhm. I wanted [00:16:15] to live in California. I wanted the sunlight, I wanted to be actively dating and you know [00:16:20] back in the scene.

Rhona Eskander: So how old were you at that point.

Dr. Tara: 27. Okay so [00:16:25] I finished, I finished early, um, got my PhD, moved to LA and then started [00:16:30] teaching at Cal State University.

Rhona Eskander: Were you still in this long distance relationship at this point?

Dr. Tara: No. It was that was done [00:16:35] a long time ago because because I was reading my paper, I’m like, okay, I’m not doing three [00:16:40] of these five things. So obviously this is not working. Um, but at this [00:16:45] point I was single, moved to LA wanting to be, you know, um, [00:16:50] wanting to be actively dating and find my person. And at the time, I didn’t know why I was [00:16:55] rushing so hard. But I know why. Tell me, because I now know why.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:17:00] think I can resonate with that. I mean, I feel like the universe definitely put you in my path because I’ve been on [00:17:05] my own healing journey. I, um, I was conditioned by [00:17:10] my parents with love, who have been married and happily married and have loads of sex, by the way, for the last 35 [00:17:15] years. Um, and I was conditioned to believe that as a woman. Well, [00:17:20] number one, from a gynaecology point of view, like optimal to have kids kind of pre 30. Yeah. So [00:17:25] the biological clock and number two, my dad was like you know and like some people might think like he didn’t say [00:17:30] this verbatim but it’s never verbatim. It’s never verbatim. But like, you know, like men [00:17:35] do desire a woman in their 20s. You know, so I think that, like. So I [00:17:40] went to university. There was all the Christian guilt. Um, I met my first boyfriend when I was 22. [00:17:45] Um, he was my first love. The person I lost my virginity to. And [00:17:50] then I was like, we’re gonna get married. Like, obviously, that’s the next step. Now, conditioning from Disney [00:17:55] and films like The Notebook and whatever. So I thought, this is how it happens. [00:18:00] You focus on your studies, you go to university, you go into a room and a man [00:18:05] picks you. You don’t even need to do anything. You need to just be.

Dr. Tara: A man picks.

Rhona Eskander: You and he picks you, and then he picks you and everything [00:18:10] else unfolds like the Prince Charming. And I think that is such a sin. You have children, you know. I’m [00:18:15] happy now that we’ve got Moana. And she, like, owned her own island. And like, I think like Princess Elsa or whatever it [00:18:20] is. Because back then, the thing is, again, what we grew up with was being a princess [00:18:25] that is chosen by a prince or rescued by a prince. So when I broke up with [00:18:30] my boyfriend when I was 27. He broke up with me out of the blue. Everyone around me was [00:18:35] getting married. So yeah, my friends were all getting married to who they met in university. Now, once [00:18:40] that happened in my mind, instead of focusing on healing and discovering [00:18:45] who I was, I was like, I have three years to find a husband. That is my timeline [00:18:50] now. I have three years. Don’t grieve. Don’t be upset. But what you’ve got to do [00:18:55] is, is that you’ve got to understand that this is what you’ve got now. I [00:19:00] think that was the biggest mistake that I ever made in my entire life. Because as we [00:19:05] know, happiness is about living in the present. And women [00:19:10] will always struggle more than men because of the biological clock. Yes, we cannot live in the present. [00:19:15] If we want to have children. We cannot just date people and see how it goes without intentionality, [00:19:20] because it’s just more difficult. And I think that is the reality. So for me, [00:19:25] and I don’t know if it was the same for you, I felt the 30 clock pressure. That was what happened to me.

Dr. Tara: That’s [00:19:30] exactly the same as my experience. Like, it’s almost like we’re the same person. Yeah, [00:19:35] literally. I mean, we got different types of doctorates, but, like. Yeah, it’s [00:19:40] the same. Exactly. Yeah. Like same. Yeah. So, you know, my parents giving me those subliminal messages [00:19:45] about like, oh, you know, you’re in your late 20s. We just want to make sure someone takes care of you. [00:19:50] That vibe. And then also all the movies and then also just myself [00:19:55] and I have. And this is, like, very personal, but I’ve always struggled with perfectionism. [00:20:00] Me too. Of course. Just want to come off as perfect. Yeah. Want to come off as, like, I got [00:20:05] my life together. Yeah, yeah. Like I’m doing well. Got my life together. And not really perfect [00:20:10] on the inside, but perfect on the outside. Right. So, like, just like you. I didn’t spend time healing [00:20:15] myself. I spent time looking for a husband.

Rhona Eskander: Husband? Shopping, I call it. It was.

Dr. Tara: Fast. You know, [00:20:20] at that point, I’m like, okay, I’m successful. Like, I’m now a tenure track professor. Um, [00:20:25] I have I love, love my job. I have amazing friends. I [00:20:30] have an amazing apartment. This is the missing puzzle. Yeah. What’s next? Right. I hop on [00:20:35] Tinder and literally found the first person I found. I got married to him. [00:20:40] Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Wow. Yeah.

Dr. Tara: It was. I wouldn’t say it was a mistake [00:20:45] because I learned a lot from it, but definitely something that, um, is a huge [00:20:50] lesson in my life is I didn’t take the time. I ignored all the red flags, the red [00:20:55] flags. And to be honest, he’s a great guy. Just not a great guy for me. [00:21:00] We weren’t compatible, but I ignored everything because he was [00:21:05] so great on paper. Um, he was handsome, tall, [00:21:10] wealthy. He’s a Buddhist, which you don’t find a lot of that in LA. [00:21:15] Um, and he was really into me. So that’s it. Checked [00:21:20] all the boxes. Let’s get married. We got married in six months.

Rhona Eskander: After meeting each other. Yeah. And [00:21:25] then where did it start to go wrong?

Dr. Tara: You know, after, [00:21:30] I would say after a year of being married, I had this sense [00:21:35] of like guilt that this [00:21:40] is not the person for me. Why? Um, two things. First, [00:21:45] we don’t have we didn’t have any chemistry like that. [00:21:50] Sexual connection. The tension that you get with a person [00:21:55] that you’re attracted to. I didn’t have any of that with him. And now, not even [00:22:00] in the beginning. It just sounds so mean.

Rhona Eskander: Not even in the beginning.

Dr. Tara: No, but I ignored it [00:22:05] because he’s the perfect person on paper to get married to. He’s going to be [00:22:10] a good father. He’s going to be a good life partner. Fuck sexual connection. We don’t need that. Like, [00:22:15] let’s just get on with it. Have a perfect life. Come on, Tara, you can do this. So [00:22:20] that was like. That was the.

Rhona Eskander: What was the second thing you said? Two things.

Dr. Tara: Yeah. So [00:22:25] that was the first thing. The second thing was, you know, he had a lot of trauma that was [00:22:30] unprocessed as well from his life. He had a very difficult life with his family. [00:22:35] So for me, you can’t have like two people that haven’t worked [00:22:40] on themselves, like be together. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: And did he act out? [00:22:45]

Dr. Tara: He had a lot of micro behavioural things that I noticed [00:22:50] that was like, oh, that’s like it’s because of that. Because even when I suggest [00:22:55] therapy, he’s like, oh no, I don’t need that. I even bought him packages to go to therapy. [00:23:00] I bought him like a five package, like he didn’t go. He refused to go. He believed he was healed [00:23:05] from all these, like, you know, psychedelics and all these journeys. He goes on. [00:23:10] But it doesn’t matter unless you like, confront it yourself anyways. So that was hard. [00:23:15] That was a huge barrier. But also just the fact that we didn’t have chemistry was [00:23:20] really hard because how can you build like you? I’m. [00:23:25] So there’s two camps when it comes to sexual attraction. There’s the camp of [00:23:30] you either have it or you don’t. But yes, like things like it’s ebbs and flow, [00:23:35] right? Like things come and go, but you have to have it from the beginning in order to, like, build on it and maintain [00:23:40] it. There’s another camp of people, of scholars who’s like, no, no, no, no, you [00:23:45] they’re more logical. Like, you assess the relationship based on viability [00:23:50] and then sexual connection is just something that you can develop later [00:23:55] on in life or whatever later on in a relationship. And I used to be in that camp. Right. Very [00:24:00] logical data, like find a person that checks the box and, you know, matches the papers. [00:24:05] And I ignored this part. But however, after studying sexual [00:24:10] connection and sexual satisfaction for now a long time, I learned that honestly, [00:24:15] the camp of like you, you need to have it from the beginning makes way [00:24:20] more sense, especially if you are someone that [00:24:25] values sexual connection. Not everyone values sexual connection and that is completely fine. [00:24:30] Um, but if you value sexual connection, you should be in the camp [00:24:35] of whether you have it or you don’t.

Rhona Eskander: But my question for you is this is that we often know [00:24:40] that those that have that insane sexual chemistry from the beginning. Yeah, the [00:24:45] insane sexual chemistry from the beginning when you’re like, I want to rip each other’s clothes off. And then we know that that [00:24:50] ends as quickly as it starts sometimes for people, because that is, it’s so [00:24:55] solely based on that and the fireworks. And then when real life settles in, like [00:25:00] you live with each other, there’s problems, you know, whatever, whatever, whatever that actually that becomes [00:25:05] less important because other aspects of that human being don’t [00:25:10] show up in the way that you need them to.

Dr. Tara: Exactly, exactly. So there is two different [00:25:15] types of sexual connection, right? There’s like healthy sexual connection that [00:25:20] actually propels your life makes you achieve more things. I would say that’s what I have now [00:25:25] with my now husband, is our relationship. And our sexuality [00:25:30] really propels like the relationship, my career, we both are more successful. We make more [00:25:35] money, we have more friends because of our sexuality. Yeah, and it’s a huge [00:25:40] claim. However, uh, when I was in that previous marriage, I was very. I had a very dull [00:25:45] life. Um, even though we were travelling the world and, you know, having a house [00:25:50] like this beachfront property, it doesn’t matter because we just didn’t have that connection [00:25:55] and passion. There’s people who says like, oh, you know, you just stick it out. Like, you know, you [00:26:00] get everything else. Like you get gifts, you get trips, like, why not? I’m like, but that’s not what I [00:26:05] care about, isn’t it? Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So. So when did it come to an end for you?

Dr. Tara: Um, just [00:26:10] a couple of years in. I couldn’t. I couldn’t get a divorce, honestly, because he was struggling [00:26:15] so much, like, you know, there’s things that happened with his mom. Um, there’s things [00:26:20] that happened with his brothers. Like if I left at the time, I would be, like a big bitch. So [00:26:25] I stayed, I stayed, and I was the best wife possible. And when [00:26:30] it was time, I was, I was like, listen, I can’t do this. So do you have [00:26:35] children? No. So I asked for a divorce. It was really, really hard. Like, because [00:26:40] after that day, like I would say at least two weeks straight, I wake up crying every morning. And [00:26:45] that is a misconception that a lot of people have, is that the person asking for a divorce is [00:26:50] like just a big arsehole, and they don’t give a shit. That’s not true. A lot of us, I know a lot of [00:26:55] people that were the people asking for a divorce really struggle afterwards, and I [00:27:00] did 100%. Um, so.

Rhona Eskander: How did he react?

Dr. Tara: He [00:27:05] was shocked. Yeah, he was shocked. But that just goes to show, like, that’s how well [00:27:10] I played the part, how well I was supportive and how well I played the part. [00:27:15] He had no idea I was unhappy.

Rhona Eskander: And then how did your [00:27:20] healing journey start? And at this point of your career. Because obviously I understand. Were you already [00:27:25] a sex expert within your academia or not at this point?

Dr. Tara: So at [00:27:30] that time I already started like researching and teaching this class. And this will come into all [00:27:35] fruition because this goes back to, okay, I was in this marriage [00:27:40] we had like we didn’t have sex, right? But I go to school and I teach about [00:27:45] sexual satisfaction, and I talk about sexual communication, and I talk about [00:27:50] accepting who you are and your sexuality. And I personally [00:27:55] did not have that at home. And I felt so ashamed. Um, [00:28:00] because I’m just like a big fake at this point. You know, I didn’t have all the shit [00:28:05] I have that I, you know, preach about at school and teaching all these university students. [00:28:10] I was just teaching them theoretically. But I don’t walk the walk. I just talk the talk. And I have always [00:28:15] hated people like that. I’ve always hated people that just talk the talk and don’t walk the walk, and [00:28:20] I just hated myself. And all of that contributed to just me being [00:28:25] so unhappy in that marriage and. And was.

Rhona Eskander: He? Because if you weren’t having sex, like, was that not [00:28:30] affecting him?

Dr. Tara: It was. But at the same time, it wasn’t like we were not [00:28:35] jiving, like sexually well enough to be like initiating [00:28:40] that process of like, what can we do to even [00:28:45] make this sex better just because, like, we never had chemistry. And chemistry is it’s, [00:28:50] you know, this, like you’re a woman of science. Chemistry is something you have or you don’t.

Rhona Eskander: So [00:28:55] I was having a conversation with my coach. [00:29:00] I’m really invested in my, um, sort of healing journey [00:29:05] with, um, my therapy and my coach. And again, like, I really want to [00:29:10] delve into this with you. Um, there are people that you have chemistry with, but the chemistry [00:29:15] is literally a dopamine endorphin response. And it is [00:29:20] also biological because this person makes you want to reproduce, and it could be because their physical features. Right. [00:29:25] And also on top of that, like, I think that I was trying to work out that sometimes [00:29:30] those hormones make me feel really anxious. So it makes me feel anxious and alive at the same time. And [00:29:35] I think it’s chemistry. And sometimes I actually crave safety. And safety is a little bit more [00:29:40] boring, if that makes sense, because safety is.

Dr. Tara: See, I think that’s not true. Okay. I [00:29:45] think that’s not true because when we look at research of long term couples [00:29:50] who do have high sexual satisfaction, it’s not just [00:29:55] about chemistry, it’s about connection. It’s about having a healthy relationship. It’s about being [00:30:00] communicative, expressive, loving who you are so you can show up as 100%. You [00:30:05] don’t need this person. You want them, you crave them, you want them. And I think the fact [00:30:10] that there is this narrative of like, when you get married, life is just going to be boring [00:30:15] and you should accept it. It’s like, I think it’s bullshit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it’s bullshit and it’s conditioning [00:30:20] people to want a mediocre life.

Rhona Eskander: I think, though, but [00:30:25] I do think there is something to be said for the fact that some people are also [00:30:30] used to chaos, and chaos is like the if chaos is familiar to you, [00:30:35] you might seek that out in relationships and toxic. Exactly. And that I think that’s where like [00:30:40] one needs to be careful because that toxicity. Yes. Um, makes you [00:30:45] feel alive, but it’s not necessarily good for you. Do you see what I mean? You know, so I think, like, that’s [00:30:50] a really important thing. But yeah, I think chemistry is a really interesting one. No, it’s.

Dr. Tara: Just [00:30:55] one factor of a healthy relationship. Right. There’s like 20 different factors, right? When [00:31:00] we look at research, there’s so many other things like communication, personality [00:31:05] compatibility. There’s interest compatibility like so many things. Even family compatibility. [00:31:10] Yeah. So chemistry is one of them. Whether or not it affects you [00:31:15] heavily, it depends on what you value in a relationship. For me, I [00:31:20] did not know at the time that I value passion so much and that it propels my whole life, every [00:31:25] aspect of my life. And so with my current husband, we met on the plane. Um, so [00:31:30] hold on.

Rhona Eskander: So you went on your healing journey, so you got divorced. Then what happened?

Dr. Tara: I went on my healing journey even before [00:31:35] I got a divorce. My healing journey led me to getting a divorce. Yeah, it really gave me.

Rhona Eskander: So did [00:31:40] you just gain that clarity on your own? And you were like, you came home one day and you were like, I’m gonna have the conversation.

Dr. Tara: Yes. [00:31:45] It was really hard. I was like, in an Uber, calling my girlfriends like, shit, I’m gonna do it, I’m gonna do it. And [00:31:50] it was just so, so scary. Yeah, that was the scariest thing I did in my life.

Rhona Eskander: So you woke up every day [00:31:55] crying for two weeks. Then what happened?

Dr. Tara: Just like, you know, continuing [00:32:00] on with my healing journey at that point, I have already started my healing journey like a year and a half [00:32:05] ago, right? So I continue on doing all my practices Self-affirmations journaling [00:32:10] meditation. I meditate every single day, making sure I spend time [00:32:15] with friends that are healthy that don’t judge me. That right, like making sure I focus on my [00:32:20] career and making sure I focus on my physical health. Exercising and talking to my coach [00:32:25] was dating again.

Rhona Eskander: Um, was that was it hard? Was it on your radar [00:32:30] at that point? Were you like, no, I just want to focus on me.

Dr. Tara: No, I was I was fine because, you know, actually what [00:32:35] I learned is there is this narrative of, like, you should fix yourself first before you date [00:32:40] someone, but that’s not true. Like, you can work on yourself together as long as both of you have [00:32:45] growth mindset. And actually having a supporter in your life helps [00:32:50] you accelerate that healing process. Like so much. So for me, I was [00:32:55] fine. Like I was open to receiving love to the universe. I tell the universe [00:33:00] like, if there’s love that’s passionate, like I’m here, I’m here for it. So [00:33:05] anyways, really, long story short, I’ve been ever since. [00:33:10] Um, my now husband and I started dating. I see you met on a plane. [00:33:15] Yeah. And so we were friends at first. And then when we started, you know, developing, [00:33:20] uh, kind of romantic feelings, we tell [00:33:25] each other, like, we’re we’re going to try to make this as easy. And because we were [00:33:30] both focusing on our careers, we were trying to make this as easy as possible. So fun [00:33:35] fact we actually started as like, friends with benefit. Yeah. Wow. We started as [00:33:40] like a fuck buddy.

Dr. Tara: Yeah yeah yeah. Because I love, you know, I love multiple orgasms. [00:33:45] I’m not gonna lie. And he’s attractive and he is the same. And we both love our careers and we want it to focus [00:33:50] on that. So we started with just, like fooling around and having that friendship. And we had such [00:33:55] good friendships. We would cook together. We would like talk about life and philosophy. And, you know, [00:34:00] I don’t know a lot of people that can like make me cum four times and then talk about Marxism [00:34:05] and cooks me dinner. So it was amazing like that. Friendship really is the foundation [00:34:10] of our relationship. And he loved my career versus my ex-husband was [00:34:15] always kind of icky about me being so upfront about sex. So this [00:34:20] really helped me embrace who I am. And plus I was heavily [00:34:25] working on myself continuously, relentlessly. And I’m like, you obsessed with just working on myself. [00:34:30] Yeah. So at that point when we started like, okay, we think we want to be in [00:34:35] a committed relationship. How long did that take? Like a year and a half. [00:34:40] Yeah, yeah. Um, then we.

Rhona Eskander: And were you also exploring other partners at the same time? [00:34:45] Yeah.

Dr. Tara: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we were very upfront, like, you know, we love our time together, but [00:34:50] when we’re not together, it’s like our prerogative to however we want to conduct our lives. [00:34:55] Yeah. Um, but then we started being in a relationship. We had a conversation [00:35:00] like, this relationship is such an adult relationship. Like we had a conversation along the way, but when [00:35:05] we started the relationship, I told him, um, sexual exploration is my top three [00:35:10] values in life and we will never go away. I’ll be like 65 and wanting to like, explore [00:35:15] something. So I told him, like, you know, I’m someone that explore sexually. [00:35:20] I’m someone that goes to like sex parties. And, you know, I just want you to know. And [00:35:25] I desire a monogamous relationship, not a monogamous [00:35:30] relationship. I don’t desire a traditional relationship. Yeah. And at that point, he was like, I [00:35:35] completely understand I’m not there yet mentally, but I think I will be because I’m very [00:35:40] open to that. And I’m curious. So not right now, but yes, in the future. Yeah. [00:35:45] So we were monogamous at the beginning for up until [00:35:50] like only a year ago.

Rhona Eskander: And are you guys now started? [00:35:55]

Dr. Tara: We are not open. We’re monogamous. Yeah. Um, which is different. What’s monogamish? So [00:36:00] monogamish is like 95% monogamous. It’s just like a regular relationship [00:36:05] because people always ask like, oh my God, do you guys have crazy days and nights? I’m like, no, every day is the [00:36:10] same as you guys. Yeah. You know, we have each other. We’re emotionally committed, romantically committed. [00:36:15] We talk all the time. We support each other. We have shared finances. Um, we’re [00:36:20] like just a regular married couple.

Rhona Eskander: If you have another connection with someone else, do you kind of explore it? [00:36:25] Is that how it works? No. Okay.

Dr. Tara: Um, so except for sexual exploration. So [00:36:30] we see sex as recreational rather than something sacred between married couples. [00:36:35] It’s fine. So for us, sex isn’t related to faith or religion. Yeah, because a lot of people think [00:36:40] that sex should only be with their committed partner because it is attached to some teachings. [00:36:45] Isn’t it? Like, how did you come up with this idea? Like, let’s say you weren’t taught this [00:36:50] idea. Would you have thought that you only have to have sex with one person? It’s a stupid comment, but it came [00:36:55] from somewhere.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, same with marriage though, right? Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Tara: Well, marriage for me [00:37:00] it’s a financial situation. This is. I mean, it’s insurance.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, but, like, this is the crazy [00:37:05] thing because I think, like, to be honest with you, like, I really wasn’t that bothered about marriage. [00:37:10] I kind of like my parents put it. And then when I thought about it, I was like. And then when I started, like, reading the paperwork, I’m like, [00:37:15] what is this? Like, it’s like an old out done agreement. And, you know, people are like, oh, but it’s the union of [00:37:20] two souls. I’m like, but why do you have to make it legal? I don’t get it. Like, if you are a woman with your shit together [00:37:25] and a man with his shit together, what is the point? Like, is it like you can do the union of love on a beach? You can, [00:37:30] like, celebrate it with your friends. Like, why do you have to make this whole legal debacle about it? You know, like, I’m [00:37:35] not here to marry someone for their money. And, like, I don’t think he’s here to marry. Do you know what I mean? Like, I found the whole thing a bit weird, [00:37:40] you know, like, really understanding it, you know?

Dr. Tara: I completely agree. Well, you know, I [00:37:45] wrote, I mean, I wrote a whole textbook about, like, development of, like, sex and relationships and marriages. [00:37:50] So it’s like, obviously in the past, it makes a lot of sense because women couldn’t have a bank [00:37:55] account, like, of course you want to get married. Of course it was a financial agreement. Yeah. Of course you want alimony [00:38:00] when you get dumped by your husband cheating on you because you didn’t work, you didn’t have a bank account. So it [00:38:05] makes total sense back in the day. Yeah. Nowadays, like you said, doesn’t make so much sense. However, [00:38:10] if people still feel like, oh my God, it’s like this union of souls, it’s okay. It’s like everybody’s prerogative. [00:38:15] Yeah. Um, however, I do think that in a marriage, um, you [00:38:20] can do what the eff ever you want. And that’s the thing is, people live [00:38:25] in this, like, constrained, like, box of rules, which is, you know, obviously [00:38:30] social and cultural norms of what is okay, what’s not okay when it comes to how [00:38:35] people conduct themselves in a romantic relationship, in a marriage and, um, in their sexual [00:38:40] relationship. So for me, I told my husband was like, listen, [00:38:45] we’re gonna go to sex parties, right? Like we’re gonna be exploring because [00:38:50] we both love exploring. We’re curious sexual individuals. And he’s like, yes, we will [00:38:55] not right now. So we were monogamous until we were not. And then we started exploring [00:39:00] as a monogamous couple, a monogamous married couple. So we’re 95% [00:39:05] of the time, just like everyone else. We have a normal life, and then 5% [00:39:10] of the time is the times where we go to like sex parties and we explore with other people. And sex [00:39:15] for us is recreational. It’s fun. It’s, um, exciting. It’s [00:39:20] taboo, it’s dirty. It allows us to, like, have this like, kind of almost like a double life [00:39:25] of whatever we do. Right? So that’s just the monogamish part. [00:39:30] But other than that, it’s just like a regular relationship, really. It’s not really scary [00:39:35] or crazy. It’s just once in a while we go to sex parties and do crazy things.

Rhona Eskander: I love that [00:39:40] for you. Now there’s some other stuff because I just want to refresh my memory. Okay. So [00:39:45] how did you. Okay, so I want to [00:39:50] share you as well. You talked about your book Sexual Communication Research and Action. Yeah. It’s [00:39:55] been extremely influential. But I want to ask you to share perhaps some of your key messages from that book. [00:40:00] Yes.

Dr. Tara: So that is a textbook like it’s for university. [00:40:05] Yeah, right. I’m coming out with actually my own book next year. Yeah. But that’s a textbook. [00:40:10] So the key messages in that textbook would be number one, um, [00:40:15] sexual knowledge is power. Without sexual knowledge, you’re unable to [00:40:20] understand your own sexuality. Accept it and accepting other people. Number two, [00:40:25] um, a lot of your own sexual fulfilment [00:40:30] and satisfaction comes from yourself, uh, which is a misconception that, like, [00:40:35] someone gives you pleasure. No, you need to even have the capacity to have [00:40:40] pleasure.

Rhona Eskander: What do you mean by masturbation at that point? Or, like, more like [00:40:45] like how would you how would you when you want to give yourself your own pleasure? How do you mean that specifically? [00:40:50]

Dr. Tara: Sexual mindfulness. Okay. Yeah. Which is a huge concept that we talk about in the textbook. [00:40:55] But also I talk about that constantly. I talk about it in my Ted talk. I talk about it in like every [00:41:00] podcast I go on because it’s free, but yet it’s not like PSA [00:41:05] around the world, right? Because it’s not pharmaceutical. People don’t make money from meditation. [00:41:10] Um, and, you know, it’s. Yeah, it’s not a money making [00:41:15] machine. So it’s not getting promoted and or endorsed that much. So I take it [00:41:20] my, my job to tell people about it. Yeah. So sexual mindfulness is the ability [00:41:25] to stay present, focussed and non-judgmental [00:41:30] during any kind of sexual activity, including self-pleasure and partner pleasure. Okay. [00:41:35] Um, it the crazy thing is most people don’t have [00:41:40] it. Most people can’t be mindful. It’s either they’re judging themselves, [00:41:45] judging their partner, thinking about something else, like having, you know, intrusive thoughts. [00:41:50] Um, or they have this repressed shame that haven’t [00:41:55] been processed. So sexual mindfulness is really the key to a [00:42:00] long lasting, happy sex life, because it’s like the very foundation of [00:42:05] a house you can’t build a house on, you know, unstable soil. Right. So [00:42:10] without sexual mindfulness, like, yes, you can, you know, have a partner who has [00:42:15] a sizeable package and knows how to use it and this and that have chemistry. [00:42:20] But at the same time you’re consistently thinking about, oh my God, am I a slut for fucking [00:42:25] this person? Am I? You know, all the things that stop you from being present in [00:42:30] that moment and enjoying the pleasure in the sensations in your body? That’s [00:42:35] that’s the biggest enemy.

Rhona Eskander: But do you not think that women will always have. I mean, I think it’s [00:42:40] changing more. And I know that you work a lot with like Gen Z, which is super interesting to me. And I’m [00:42:45] perhaps it’s changing, but do you not think the guilt and the shame within the female [00:42:50] sphere is still something that is massively prevalent, particularly amongst [00:42:55] certain religions. You know, we’ve touched on some, but there are literally some religions that are like, you cannot [00:43:00] tempt a man. Like it is you cover up because you tend to man.

Dr. Tara: Religion, that you cover [00:43:05] the whole body except the eyes.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. I mean, so for me, do you not think that there is [00:43:10] still so far to go? I mean, I wouldn’t feel comfortable having these conversations. I [00:43:15] mean, even when we did the podcast with Emma. Mhm. Payman and I, my co-host who’s not here, [00:43:20] I was like oh my god. Like what are people going to say. Because we knew that dentistry is dominated by certain [00:43:25] ethnic minorities. And are they going to be like what the hell are they doing having these conversations? And I don’t [00:43:30] mean to be like judgemental, but I think there is certainly something to be said. [00:43:35] I still think that, you know, female empowerment, female sexuality and being able to be mindful [00:43:40] within certain activities is still really difficult. Yeah. Um, [00:43:45] but what’s your perception? Do you not think we’ve got really far to go? And do you think Gen Z are setting [00:43:50] a different precedence?

Dr. Tara: Yeah, yeah, I think so. So number one, I [00:43:55] do agree with you. We are we have a lot more to go. Right? And we still have [00:44:00] a long journey. However, it’s been changing so much. Even when I [00:44:05] started my career as a sexologist ten years ago. Until now, it’s completely [00:44:10] different. Yeah. Completely different. Right. And so given like another ten years, 15 [00:44:15] years, I think we’re going to see huge changes. Yeah. Um, I’ve seen [00:44:20] Gen Z’s my students. Right. University students nowadays is like Gen Z’s. And soon [00:44:25] enough we’ll have Gen Alpha, the next generation. But I can see Gen Z’s, even though there’s this statistic [00:44:30] that people often cite about, like Gen Z is not having sex. If you really look into that, if [00:44:35] you really look into that data, it was collected in 2021, it was Covid. [00:44:40] No one is fucking. So it’s not just Gen Z like you’d have to look at these [00:44:45] data to like when was it collected? Of course they’re not having sex. They’re on zoom. Yeah. So they [00:44:50] are having sex and they’re they’re actually very accepting of all kinds of sexuality, [00:44:55] sexual orientation, sexual exploration. They’re more accepting to ideas [00:45:00] that are non-traditional. Like for example, right. Prostate massage or like anal [00:45:05] sex or like butt play, like, you know, for men, it’s so like, oh my God, no, that’s so gay, [00:45:10] right? Especially if you ask older individuals. But like, not Gen Zs, they’re like pleasure is pleasure body [00:45:15] parts or body parts. It has no sexual orientation.

Rhona Eskander: But having spoken about that generation on porn [00:45:20] now, there is so much there is. Okay. Interestingly, [00:45:25] my partner gave me a book called The Anxious Generation. Um, it’s a book that he’s obsessed [00:45:30] with me rereading. I’ve just started it, um, and it’s about how technology has impacted 100% [00:45:35] everyone. And he thinks it’s like literally the source of all evil because the statistics [00:45:40] show the researcher. I’m sure you know of him. I forgot his name. Now he’s done lots of TEDx talks. Um, [00:45:45] he basically shows a statistically he’s like, no, no, no, this is not just hearsay, because people are like, oh, [00:45:50] the generation is getting more depressed because of, like, the conflict in the [00:45:55] Middle East or because of, like the fact that there’s been a massive recession. And he’s like, no, no, I have [00:46:00] the data, like social media has a huge part to play in anorexia, [00:46:05] body image, etc. and obviously the big thing for guys was porn addiction [00:46:10] and the inability of young men to be able to talk to women. But [00:46:15] what do you think? What is your view on the porn industry and the part [00:46:20] that porn has had to play on the younger generation?

Dr. Tara: Mhm. Oh [00:46:25] okay. So we have to first not [00:46:30] generalise all porn. Yeah. Because not all porn is bad. There [00:46:35] are bad porn and there are good porn. Um, and there are companies that work [00:46:40] really hard in being transparent in producing these we call erotic films. [00:46:45] These are like art. Yeah, it is pleasure. Yeah, it is kinky and taboo, [00:46:50] but at the same time it was produced ethically. So we call this genre ethical porn. [00:46:55] And it’s not produced to be addictive. It’s not produced to show violence on women that are non-consensual. [00:47:00] It’s not produced by sexist pigs. It’s not produced [00:47:05] where all these performers are not paid enough. Right? Like these are [00:47:10] consensual individuals having fun, kinky sex because they want to and [00:47:15] they get paid for it. And it’s made as an erotic film. So there’s ethical porn. Um, [00:47:20] there’s also ethical audio porn, right? There’s company, [00:47:25] big companies that do audio porn. Um, so there’s that genre of porn [00:47:30] where if individuals and couples use it in a regulated [00:47:35] way, actually has positive effects in their lives. Um, [00:47:40] we have seen in research where, um, individuals that feel, [00:47:45] um, like they can’t have a quote unquote normal sex life aka like disabled [00:47:50] people, for example, whether it’s a scene disabled disability or unseen [00:47:55] disability, something you can’t see, um, people still feel like they still get sexual [00:48:00] satisfaction from watching porn.

Dr. Tara: And that’s that’s just like one benefit for [00:48:05] a big group of people. Right? But there’s also research that shows couples [00:48:10] that watch porn together, like once in a while, as a strategy in bringing excitement [00:48:15] and novelty to their sex life, have a better sex life. So there’s those [00:48:20] benefits that we can’t forget. However, there are a lot of [00:48:25] bad porn, right? Because the industry for the longest time had gatekeepers of [00:48:30] these, um, powerful men who were gatekeepers, who were really just like [00:48:35] three, four big, um, porn producing houses that were producing [00:48:40] all these videos, and a lot of them were sexist. A lot of them didn’t pay the performers well. A lot of them [00:48:45] did, you know. It’s just made in a way that to be addictive to be. Yeah. Violence on [00:48:50] women that are uncalled for. So yeah, there are bad porn and yeah, there are people [00:48:55] who, um, rely on porn quite relentlessly [00:49:00] in their whatever, um, pleasure, um, journey. But, [00:49:05] you know, interestingly, porn addiction isn’t a diagnosable, um, [00:49:10] like condition. There’s no porn addiction [00:49:15] like in the textbook. Yeah. Like, there is, you know, sex addiction.

Rhona Eskander: There is.

Dr. Tara: Overconsumption. [00:49:20] Yeah, there’s overconsumption of porn. And anyone can be, you [00:49:25] know, a victim of that. And at the end of the day, I think it’s kind of [00:49:30] like, you know, do you, do you. Have you ever gone hunting?

Rhona Eskander: Hunting [00:49:35] in London. In London? In England? Yeah. It’s been like for animals.

Dr. Tara: Like people do that. Right?

Rhona Eskander: That’s [00:49:40] like a whole tradition of, like, people shooting and stuff like that and like, yeah, that kind of stuff. I mean, I’ve never engaged [00:49:45] in those activities. I mean, in the UK, I guess. I mean, I’m so not a country girl. Like, you know, you can see here. [00:49:50]

Dr. Tara: It is like one of the traditions. Yeah. Right. Like I’ve seen, you [00:49:55] know, I’ve seen Downton Abbey. Yeah, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: It is a tradition. Right. And, like, definitely like my university [00:50:00] friends got involved in that. Yeah.

Dr. Tara: Yeah. So it’s like, okay. It’s like guns [00:50:05] in that sense, right? Like, is it the person you know? Is it like porn [00:50:10] exists? It exists. Like we can’t make it go away unless the legislation legislation changes, [00:50:15] but it exists. How you use it is in your power. Yeah. So [00:50:20] for me to blame porn for your problems is kind of like.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:50:25] think though, like, look, I’ve had loads of conversations and I don’t want to give him lots of airtime, but like, I have loads [00:50:30] of about the rise of like male misogyny online, particularly when it comes to certain [00:50:35] influencers. And we know that. Um, but I think that what troubles me the most [00:50:40] is that we’ve had such an incredible narrative of men, essentially [00:50:45] subtly hating women. And I think that message comes across quite strong. And the thing is, is that I’m also not [00:50:50] part of the camp. That’s like women should rule the world. I really think that the problem is, is that [00:50:55] we have not found a way to collaborate instead of actually [00:51:00] separating ourselves. And I think the kind of like the internalised misogyny [00:51:05] of some men, but also the actual fact that a lot of female hate men is really not [00:51:10] helping our environment and our progression. No, I have an amazing relationship [00:51:15] with men. I know that I’m really lucky. I absolutely love my dad. He was [00:51:20] my king. He was the best dad. The best husband still is. Okay, he [00:51:25] actually set an unrealistic expectation because when I started dating after my first boyfriend, [00:51:30] I was like, why are men so shit? Like, it really shocked me that some men can [00:51:35] behave that way, but I genuinely had no problem like asserting [00:51:40] boundaries. There have been a few instances in the last five years of my life where [00:51:45] I was like, oh wow, that was actually misogynistic, you know? Or I think particularly in the workplace, [00:51:50] I’ve recognised I’m like, no, why haven’t women given opportunity? Why is there a conference and not a single female? [00:51:55] Why haven’t you.

Rhona Eskander: And there’s certain like things like that where I’m like, okay, I can see it, but I’ve never [00:52:00] felt hugely threatened. And I don’t want to say this lightly because [00:52:05] I know that people say, how can you say that? Women don’t even feel safe to kind of get into [00:52:10] an Uber late at night, walk home at night. I know that these are massive realities, but [00:52:15] I also think that if we’re going to progress in the world, it’s not about doing only female conferences or [00:52:20] only male clubs. Like, I think collaboration is beautiful and that’s where we’re really going to find [00:52:25] that happy medium. That’s the thing that I think is really important. And actually I like [00:52:30] a balance of energies. I like I like some men around and some women around like that balance of energy. [00:52:35] But I think the rise of toxic masculinity online [00:52:40] has become a problem only because when I suddenly find a 13 year old boy and his friends [00:52:45] like attacking a video because Andrew Tate might have said that, something that I was saying [00:52:50] was really offensive. When it’s not, that’s when I think it becomes a problem because we [00:52:55] are not having the right people influencing. And I feel sorry [00:53:00] because I feel like there is a generation of young men that do not have good role models. That’s my view [00:53:05] online particularly.

Dr. Tara: You’re right. And honestly, it’s been like this. Every generation, like even [00:53:10] our generation. You’re a millennial, right? Even our generation or even a generation before there’s always [00:53:15] been that. People have always had some bad role models. [00:53:20] It’s just that now it’s amplified due to social media. Right? So social media does give [00:53:25] a lot of opportunity to a lot of people, right, to democratise like [00:53:30] money, to give them Opportunity to be heard and to organise. [00:53:35] Right. Like people have organised, you know, protests or like whatever they are passionate [00:53:40] about. There’s people that, you know, got, um, a record deal from singing [00:53:45] on TikTok. Yeah. Right. Like, it’s it’s definitely an amazing tool in that sense. [00:53:50] It gives so many people opportunities and destroys gatekeepers. Yeah. [00:53:55] Which is really. Gatekeepers are problematic. Right. Um, however. [00:54:00] Just like porn. Right? Like the internet or social media is [00:54:05] also a place where there’s so many, so much misinformation [00:54:10] and bad information. And when you are not literate or [00:54:15] you don’t have, like, the emotional intelligence or critical thinking, then of course you’re [00:54:20] going to fall for narratives that are, um, that [00:54:25] are, I would say, like soothing to you because, you know, his [00:54:30] narrative is like, it’s not your fault that like that. No one likes you. It’s not, you [00:54:35] know, fuck these bitches, right? Like so. So for me, it’s it’s [00:54:40] it’s the fact that these kids lack community [00:54:45] love, understanding, acceptance and critical thinking [00:54:50] elsewhere and therefore get succumbed to these narratives very easily. [00:54:55] Right. But that’s like, not the internet’s problem to me. That’s the family problem. Well, [00:55:00] this is the thing.

Rhona Eskander: People crave community and love. And yeah, I always say, if anyone wants to [00:55:05] watch a film that was so powerful, it was made by my friend. Um, it’s called You [00:55:10] Resemble Me.

Dr. Tara: Mhm.

Rhona Eskander: And it is about the female suicide [00:55:15] suicide bomber. Um, in Paris, when the whole je suis Charlie thing [00:55:20] was going on. Anyways, it turned out it was all fake news. She wasn’t the first female suicide bomber. My [00:55:25] friend that made the film, it’s incredible. She went on a journey because when she was working for vice, she [00:55:30] got asked to interview the mother, and the mother only let my friend in because [00:55:35] she looked like the daughter. Hence the film You Resemble me. She recognised how the media was perpetuating [00:55:40] all this fake news. Then she created this whole beautiful film about the childhood of [00:55:45] this female suicide bomber. Children are not born saying, [00:55:50] I want to join ISIS. It is a segregated part of community [00:55:55] that doesn’t have love, was gone from like was part of the French racist [00:56:00] system that came from an abusive, alcoholic home that was separated from [00:56:05] her sister and gone from foster care to foster care. So? So guess what? When a community [00:56:10] comes along and is like, we’re going to give you love, we’re going to give you affection, we’re going to give you a job, we’re [00:56:15] going to give you security. That’s why she joins ISIS, not because she wants to bomb [00:56:20] the world. Do you see what I mean? And I’m not excusing. But this is the thing.

Dr. Tara: Like we everyone comes [00:56:25] from somewhere.

Rhona Eskander: Correct. And we need to understand, like you said, what is their childhood? [00:56:30] What is their conditioning? What support do we have? My guest a couple of weeks ago from America. [00:56:35] He used to be an addict, a drug addict, and he was like, addicts are sent to prison. [00:56:40] They’re not offered help. What if we offer them help first? You know, when they did that in Portugal, [00:56:45] you know, they had a bunch. They had a Portugal at one point had one of the biggest problems with heroin. They [00:56:50] said, okay, cool, we’re going to actually give you the heroin. So there were hubs. But in those hubs, [00:56:55] that’s so radical.

Dr. Tara: Yeah, I love it.

Rhona Eskander: But they had doctors and they had an opportunity for you [00:57:00] to get clean. And then they reduced the numbers by like to a third or something because it’s very interesting, [00:57:05] the addiction. Why? Because they offered those people help. Do you see what I mean? You know, so I think that’s really [00:57:10] important. Um, I want to ask you as well about your TEDx talk. So tell me, how did the TEDx talk come about? [00:57:15] What was it about? Um, I didn’t have an opportunity to watch it. So tell me.

Dr. Tara: Okay. Um, [00:57:20] so it’s it’s a it’s a ultimately it’s a [00:57:25] talk about sexual empowerment. It’s briefly about my story coming from so much [00:57:30] sexual shame to now basically celebrating my sexuality and talking about it unapologetically, [00:57:35] unapologetically to everybody. Yeah, but the data behind it is based on my [00:57:40] study that is, um, that was looking at [00:57:45] intrapersonal variables that predict long term [00:57:50] sexual satisfaction. I surveyed 5000 people. Wow. [00:57:55] Um, I really wanted that redundancy in data. Like, I wanted to make sure it’s not just, like, 100 [00:58:00] people, right? Like, I surveyed 5000 people. I collected data over the two year period [00:58:05] and ran statistics on, like, these different variables to see what [00:58:10] are significant predictors of long term sexual satisfaction. And this will come [00:58:15] full circle. The number one predictor of sexual satisfaction is sexual [00:58:20] communication.

Rhona Eskander: So that’s speaking during sex or.

Dr. Tara: Speaking about sex. [00:58:25] Talking about sex in your relationship. A lot of people don’t talk about [00:58:30] sex in their relationship. And then one day they explode because one person cheated on another person, and then [00:58:35] they go, what went wrong? Well, you’ve never talked about it. Yeah. You know, you’ve always had issues. You [00:58:40] didn’t talk about it. So the number one is sexual communication. The number two is sexual [00:58:45] self-esteem, which is very much the same as sexual confidence. Sexual confidence is external [00:58:50] is what you express. Sexual self-esteem is how you feel about yourself. And then thirdly is sexual [00:58:55] mindfulness. So these three variables powerful intrapersonal communication [00:59:00] variables that predict long term sexual satisfaction. These three variables are the things that you [00:59:05] can do. These three are in your hands. You have the power to do all these [00:59:10] three and have an amazing, healthy, good sex life. Um, [00:59:15] if you decide to do them.

Rhona Eskander: So I want to delve a little bit [00:59:20] more into, um, And relationships because [00:59:25] this is really interesting to me. Do you believe there is such [00:59:30] thing as a soul mate? Yeah. And one soul mate only.

Dr. Tara: No.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Yeah. [00:59:35] So tell me. Tell me a little more. Expand.

Dr. Tara: Um, you know, I read a lot about eastern philosophy. [00:59:40] I think for me, I am really the mare. Like, my whole, you [00:59:45] know, belief system, my persona, what I stand for. [00:59:50] Everything is a marriage of Eastern and Western philosophy. Because I’m from the East. [00:59:55] I was taught, like, you know, all the eastern philosophies. I’m a Buddhist. My mom doesn’t [01:00:00] believe in Western medicine. Always make me these, like, weird, like bitter broth. So [01:00:05] I have a lot of, like, eastern philosophies in me. But then I was trained and taught in the Western [01:00:10] world, so I’m like a marriage of both. Yeah, yeah. I think that’s why we connect so well and [01:00:15] have, like, spicy conversation is because we’re similar. Um, so for me, the [01:00:20] discussion of soulmates mates is taught actually a lot in like the eastern world. [01:00:25] And it’s not that you are connected to just one and the only one person, it’s [01:00:30] you’re connected to a bunch of different people that you’ve met in your past life because. [01:00:35]

Rhona Eskander: You believe there was a past life.

Dr. Tara: Right, right. Because in Buddhism, there’s reincarnation. And even [01:00:40] if even this life, when you die, you’re going to reincarnate to be someone or something. Um, [01:00:45] and so your soul mates are the people that you had met [01:00:50] in your past life. And something happened. It bonded you together, and you will always meet them. [01:00:55] Yeah. So you meet them now. You meet them in your next life.

Rhona Eskander: I was listening to a really great [01:01:00] podcast with Sarah Al-madini. I don’t know if you know her. She’s the one. And she was talking about twin [01:01:05] flames, and she was saying that either your twin flame is your mirror or [01:01:10] your partner, it’s not necessarily someone you end up with. And maybe as your mirror, they come, [01:01:15] they teach you something and then they go. It doesn’t mean they have to be your partner for life. Yeah. And I found [01:01:20] that, like, really interesting because I think that we can have lots of different soul [01:01:25] mates and people for like different reasons. So I think that that’s really important. Now, [01:01:30] do you think that I have a.

Dr. Tara: Question for you actually. So you believe [01:01:35] in soul mates? Are you with your soul mate now?

Rhona Eskander: So this is really interesting. So [01:01:40] let me tell you a little bit about me and my partner. He’s like possibly like one of the most beautiful [01:01:45] people I’ve ever met in my entire life, that he is incredible. He had a different past life [01:01:50] to me. So dare I say, he’s a man in finance, but he definitely had like a very hedonistic [01:01:55] life that’s completely opposite to me. When [01:02:00] we first dated, um, we had gone on like five dates and [01:02:05] I very much got the impression that he was emotionally unavailable and I was on, like, husband shopping [01:02:10] duty because I was like, I. You had your checklist. We reconnected because actually I was going to Burning [01:02:15] Man and I needed advice on a camp. And then he said to me like, hey, why don’t I help [01:02:20] you now? Emotionally unavailable men. Oh, I love an avoidant. I love [01:02:25] an avoidant. So I was like super attracted to him. I was super like, you [01:02:30] know. And he was very much like he was you’re kind of like Euro [01:02:35] kind of like very he’s got his shit together. But he has that kind of like, I’ll take [01:02:40] a boat in Greece. He’s Greek. Right? And like, I loved that. And it was all very intriguing when [01:02:45] I came back from Burning Man. Um, that was about a year later, after we had [01:02:50] first dated.

Rhona Eskander: He was like, do you want to meet again? And he actually asked for a second chance. [01:02:55] And in his like, second chance, he said to me, um, [01:03:00] he’d done some work. He actually went celibate for a bit. And this is the interesting thing, [01:03:05] I think that he thought that he was constantly trying to get a high from new experiences. [01:03:10] So new partners every weekend and the parties constant dopamine. Yeah. [01:03:15] And that I think couldn’t allow him to be in a monogamous relationship. [01:03:20] He actually at one point thought he didn’t believe in monogamy. And then [01:03:25] his father passed away. And when his father passed away, suddenly the [01:03:30] importance of family, I think, initiated something in him when he was like, actually, I want a [01:03:35] family because it was like the siblings looking after each other, the legacy that was left. Do you see what I mean? [01:03:40] Like all these different things. So when he came back, I was like in a different mindset. [01:03:45] I was like, I want to kind of like go on my own healing journey. And I think [01:03:50] that he’s been a soul mate. Has he been my only soul mate in life? No. I think I’ve had a few soul mates. [01:03:55] And how long have you been together?

Dr. Tara: Six years. And is. Are you married? Yeah. [01:04:00] And when you. Because you didn’t believe in marriage.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And I think like.

Dr. Tara: When [01:04:05] you got married, like what’s the rationale.

Rhona Eskander: So I think that oh my God, this is deep [01:04:10] and personal. So we didn’t really care as in like we had the conversation about [01:04:15] like, I don’t really care. Like I felt like I got to that stage where, as I said, like I was like I wanted to do it before I was 30 [01:04:20] to hit a box and show everybody and take the photos. And then I was like, in my 30s and I was like, I don’t care. Pandemic [01:04:25] hit. I was like at the height of like my career, like booming and all that stuff. And [01:04:30] I think that we had talk about. But my father was like, [01:04:35] I don’t want a baby out of wedlock. It meant a lot to him and his family. So I think it was [01:04:40] a more like the honouring, like he wanted to kind of honour for your family. I kind of liked the engagement bit [01:04:45] of it more than the actual like I was like, I like the fact that somebody’s like, hey, like you’re mine. And the [01:04:50] gesture, you know? But like, it was just, I think when I started seeing the paperwork, it really made me start [01:04:55] thinking about patriarchy and what was the point? And like, I didn’t understand, because even if we did it, like [01:05:00] on a beach with a shaman, I think it would have felt more in alignment if I’m honest. [01:05:05] Right. It was the whole.

Dr. Tara: Like, you could have had that too.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, and I think we might later on.

Dr. Tara: But I think it was the whole [01:05:10] like a vow renewal.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. So we did like the whole, like civil type thing of it. Yeah. So [01:05:15] yeah. And I think that, like, what he’s really allowed me is that I’ve been just [01:05:20] like you on a healing journey, I think, for the past ten years, if I’m honest with you. Yeah. And it’s really fucking [01:05:25] hard because you’re like, I want a complete healing. I want a complete healing. And then.

Dr. Tara: You realise it’s [01:05:30] just.

Rhona Eskander: A lifelong.

Dr. Tara: Journey. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: And I think, like, what’s really important is, is like, [01:05:35] he’s really open. He’s allowed me to be me. And I think, like, as you said, as strong, empowered [01:05:40] women. That’s really, really important because I was in a really hideous, controlling [01:05:45] relationship before him with a narcissist. And I remember dulling my shine, dulling my light, isolating [01:05:50] my friends. And it’s really hard when you’re naturally a very strong woman to kind of be. [01:05:55] What I’m trying to get into alignment now is the construct of marriage. Mhm. [01:06:00] Seems really boring for me. And it shouldn’t be because my partner isn’t boring and [01:06:05] my life is very exciting. But I think what I see around me and the conventionality [01:06:10] does not align to me. Right. But that’s when my coach is like, you want to take your kid to Burning Man. [01:06:15] You take your kid to Burning Man. Like you make marriage what you want it to be. That’s why it’s [01:06:20] very refreshing to hear from you what you want to. But we have had [01:06:25] open conversations because what I have said to him, unlike you.

Dr. Tara: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I have [01:06:30] never got to explore my sexuality. Yeah. Because of the shame? Sure, I can explore [01:06:35] it with him. But also you might argue and say, and I think this is the battle. There is a difference [01:06:40] between doing it with one person versus multiple people, because also you don’t know any [01:06:45] different. You know what I mean?

Dr. Tara: Like there’s so much to explore just with him. I mean, have you tried BDSM? [01:06:50]

Rhona Eskander: No. Like and this is the thing, like like this is the thing. Like I’m going to, like, book a session with you [01:06:55] to kind of, like, go through that.

Dr. Tara: So there’s, but, you.

Rhona Eskander: Know, like, it was so.

Dr. Tara: Much to try. It was, it was really.

Rhona Eskander: Interesting [01:07:00] because I was when we first met, he was like, I’d love to take you to the Shibari class. [01:07:05] And I was like, I’m not a slut. No.

Dr. Tara: What are you talking about?

Rhona Eskander: You know. So [01:07:10] did you try? No, we didn’t try yet. So, like, this might be like the next, um, [01:07:15] this might be the next thing. Now you’re obviously in the UK to, um, be [01:07:20] working on Celebs Go Dating. I want to know, what has been your most surprising or memorable experience working on Celebs Go [01:07:25] Dating?

Dr. Tara: Ooh, um, I would [01:07:30] say the most surprising is how real those therapy sessions are. Um, [01:07:35] when you watch reality TV, you just kind of think like, oh, they just do like hit the beat, hit [01:07:40] the beat and like, that’s it, right? Because like, when you watch, you know, Keeping Up With the Kardashians, it just all [01:07:45] looks kind of fake. Like they, they prepared for this. But on Celebs Go Dating, [01:07:50] when the celebrities come into our agency, sit in the couch with me and [01:07:55] another, um, expert, and we conduct these sessions. [01:08:00] They’re very much like my regular session in my private practice in LA is [01:08:05] we are trying to help you. We have to investigate from the beginning. Your past relationships, [01:08:10] your family.

Rhona Eskander: Are you a qualified therapist as well? No.

Dr. Tara: I’m a I’m a professor. Okay, [01:08:15] fine. I’m a professor. So my private practice isn’t therapy practice. Okay. Yeah, it’s [01:08:20] a coaching practice. Fine. Okay, so we have a goal to get to. We investigate, make [01:08:25] a plan, get to the goal versus healing from the past. Right. Therapy is healing [01:08:30] from the past. Coaching is having a goal. And how do we meet the goal? [01:08:35]

Rhona Eskander: Okay, so I’ve got a question for you.

Dr. Tara: I have both I have a therapist and I have a coach.

Rhona Eskander: But so you said to me earlier that for [01:08:40] example, like so say you’ve got a client that comes in and then the client’s like because I’m trying to [01:08:45] understand like the difference between the therapy and the coaching. So say you have a client that comes in and then she says to you, like, I have a husband, [01:08:50] I’ve been in with him for 20 years and I really love him. But and I love and we have kids [01:08:55] and everything is great. And a bit like the scenario you were in, but actually, I think my sex life has never [01:09:00] been that great. Would you advise them to leave? Do you see what I mean? In the same way that you left, you know, because, [01:09:05] as you said, one of your highest goals was sexual satisfaction, or would you encourage them [01:09:10] to maybe work on it within the relationship?

Dr. Tara: My go to is work on it. Okay. Yeah. My go to [01:09:15] is work on it. However, I have assessments. Yeah. So I have them do the assessments if one [01:09:20] of their top values is sexual connection and it’s not being met. [01:09:25]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Dr. Tara: And it’s not being met. Like I’m gonna tell them. The truth is, this shit is gonna be hard. Yeah. [01:09:30] And you may have to leave him afterwards. Yeah. But you can. We can try first. However, [01:09:35] if they do, the assessment and their sexual, sexual connection is like number ten out of, you [01:09:40] know, then it’s not a problem. When it’s not a problem, why fix it? Yeah. Like, if it’s not a problem, it’s not [01:09:45] a problem. You don’t have to compare to your friend who like, have sex six days a week. Right. It’s okay. You have sex [01:09:50] once a month. Like, if that’s okay with you. Yeah. That’s the thing is, like, you cannot [01:09:55] ever compare your sex life to anyone else. Yeah. Like, fuck your friends [01:10:00] that say, like, you know, oh, my God, we have sex, like, three times a day, or we just have the most amazing sex [01:10:05] life. Like, yeah, that’s a that’s amazing sex life for her. Maybe not for you, maybe for you. It’s like [01:10:10] once a week. Yeah. Maybe for you it’s once every two weeks, but it’s really connected. And you really spend the [01:10:15] time. Maybe for you, it’s quickies three times a week and a long session once a month. Yeah, whatever. [01:10:20] Like it’s whatever you make it to be. And I think, I guess the moral of the story [01:10:25] of everything that we just talked about is like, you design your own life. Yeah, I [01:10:30] love that. And social conditioning, cultural norms, social norms, expectations. These things [01:10:35] kill you. They kill you.

Rhona Eskander: But did you lose a lot of friends and family along the way?

Dr. Tara: Yeah. [01:10:40] And that’s okay. Yeah, yeah. That’s okay. Um, [01:10:45] I was very close with my ex-husband’s family. Of course, you know. Yeah. [01:10:50] Not in contact with any of them anymore. And that was really sad. That was really a huge part of cutting that cord [01:10:55] is like, I’m not just cutting one cord, isn’t it? Like I’m cutting all the cords. Yeah, and that was really [01:11:00] hard. Um, yeah. A few friends that I became really close with through, you [01:11:05] know, mutual friends in our marriage. Like all of those, I had to, you know, kind of regulate [01:11:10] like, because we’re all still friends. How do we show up in places where he’s not there? I’m not there. [01:11:15] So, yeah, like but at the same time, I wouldn’t change a thing. Like, currently, my [01:11:20] life is ten out of ten. My sex life is nine out of ten. [01:11:25] Yeah. I haven’t seen my husband for like two and a half weeks, but that’s okay. Yeah, I will see him soon, but you know what I mean. Like, I, [01:11:30] I think because I embrace who I am and my values and, [01:11:35] um, my desires and don’t think that I’m [01:11:40] a bad person for wanting something non-traditional. Finally, I get to live [01:11:45] the life you want. Finally, people see it. And even though they don’t want the same life as me, [01:11:50] a lot of people don’t want the same life as me. They still follow me and still love the messages I give. It’s because [01:11:55] it gives them permission to be themselves. And when it’s non-traditional, [01:12:00] not just in sex ways like in other ways, they feel accepted by [01:12:05] me because I accept myself. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: No, I really love that because I’ve [01:12:10] known I’ve seen your TikTok. I’ve seen the huge following as well. I mean, what with [01:12:15] the social media, the rise of social media, how did that happen?

Dr. Tara: Honestly, I think [01:12:20] it’s just because I don’t give a fuck. And was this.

Rhona Eskander: In the last five years, the.

Dr. Tara: Rise? Just the last three [01:12:25] years? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It’s huge. And it was just organic.

Rhona Eskander: You were like, I’m gonna put this content out all organic. [01:12:30]

Dr. Tara: I have never bought any followers. Never, like, paid for anything all organic. [01:12:35] And anything I paid for was actually my team. I paid for a team that puts out content 24 [01:12:40] over seven. Yeah, I have that. So I definitely paid for that. Yeah. Um, but really, I, [01:12:45] I think people were craving sex education because sex positivity [01:12:50] was on the rise. A few years ago, TV show called Sex Education in the UK started. It was [01:12:55] very.

Rhona Eskander: Popular. Yeah, I was.

Dr. Tara: In LA and it’s huge in LA. Yeah, so I knew and then [01:13:00] euphoria came and then, you know, all the shows that really highlight sex positivity and [01:13:05] not being ashamed of your sexuality came. So with that rise [01:13:10] of sex positivity in the media, I was like, oh, okay. Like the world is [01:13:15] ready for something like this. And at the same time, my students at in the university were were [01:13:20] really encouraging me. She was like, they were like, you’re so funny. You should have a social media [01:13:25] account. And at that time I didn’t have. Yeah. So three years ago I started TikTok, [01:13:30] Instagram and just start putting out content. Yeah. And [01:13:35] yeah, like two years later, I hit 2 million followers. And then, you know, Celebs [01:13:40] Go Dating, like, the casting people reach out, they want a sex expert on the show. I get to do [01:13:45] this show.

Rhona Eskander: It broadens your opportunities, which is what I found as well. I mean, before the rise of social media, [01:13:50] I was like turning up to like TV studios and journalists office. And I was like, you’re gonna write about dentistry? [01:13:55] I mean, dentistry is less sexy than sex, but you know what I mean?

Dr. Tara: Very important though. It’s a [01:14:00] huge, um, self-confidence factor, isn’t it? Having nice teeth.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. So. [01:14:05] But, um, I definitely pitched it out to the media, and I think there was like, you know, the rise of influencers, you know, became [01:14:10] like a big thing.

Dr. Tara: Oh my God.

Rhona Eskander: Influencers. There we go. Um, and like, you know, today [01:14:15] I got a phone call from a big kind of, like, morning TV show, like I do a lot. I’ve done, like, a lot of documentaries and [01:14:20] TV shows and things like that. Like, I think social media has been great, but I think, like, really [01:14:25] importantly is like understanding your messaging. And I think for me, messaging in terms of like an educative [01:14:30] point of view is really, really important. Am I hearing you correctly and that really [01:14:35] what you want your audience to gain? Above all, education is the empowerment to be who you want [01:14:40] to be without shame and guilt. Exactly. That’s your message, right? Yeah. Um, so [01:14:45] I’ve got another relationship question before we wrap up as well. You had brought this up. I got really obsessed [01:14:50] with Esther Perel. Esther Perel was definitely like a female that helped the female empowerment [01:14:55] journey. And I think her Reframing of infidelity is extremely powerful, [01:15:00] although there is so much shame and guilt. And of course I’m saying you should never have that go [01:15:05] out intending to hurt another human being. You know, that’s not the whole point. But I think infidelity is an extremely [01:15:10] complex subject. And I noticed that you said, you know, like, oh, you brought up [01:15:15] the whole sexual aspect that some partners cheat because of a certain like, sexual need not being [01:15:20] met. We know the.

Dr. Tara: Research found that that’s mainly sexual. Three reasons.

Rhona Eskander: So what [01:15:25] is the so what is the one of the top three reasons for infidelity?

Dr. Tara: Um, sex. Yeah. [01:15:30] Yeah. Uh, lack of attention and interest from their partner. [01:15:35] Yeah. And not just about sex, just lack of attention in general. Emotional. And then third is, you know, there’s [01:15:40] always going to be shitty reasons, right? Like it’s cheating. They, they, um, they [01:15:45] want like, extra validation, but that’s their problem. Yeah. You know, that’s their personal problem that instead [01:15:50] of fixing through like therapy and wellness, they chose fix [01:15:55] like quick external validation from cheating with someone that’s quote unquote into [01:16:00] them. So there’s all these reasons, however, um, just [01:16:05] a disclaimer like, I would never blame people that get cheated on. [01:16:10] Right. Um, and it is still important to understand [01:16:15] that in every scenario it takes two to tango, especially [01:16:20] when it comes to relationships. So you can’t really excuse [01:16:25] yourself completely out of the equation and completely 100% [01:16:30] blame the person that did the deed. Because even though [01:16:35] if it’s 10% of contributing to the factor, or if it’s 50% or whatever, you’re [01:16:40] still there. And the fact that your partner, um, [01:16:45] isn’t comfortable enough to have a conversation that [01:16:50] they’re unhappy, that they the reason why they engage in infidelity. [01:16:55] The fact that they weren’t comfortable enough to have this conversation. It tells me that your relationship [01:17:00] is unhealthy. If you cannot communicate your true feelings, your [01:17:05] relationship is unhealthy. And when the relationship is unhealthy, it’s usually [01:17:10] not because of one person, it’s because of two people.

Rhona Eskander: So just [01:17:15] to I think what has been interesting, I’ve had I had a conversation with an amazing [01:17:20] friend on Saturday who’s the mother of four children. She [01:17:25] went from one to being pregnant with triplets. Um, yeah, I know. Naturally. Wow. [01:17:30] And then, um, she told [01:17:35] me that she found out that her partner was cheating. Um, she [01:17:40] said that the marriage became difficult when more children came. [01:17:45] And I hear that a lot. I hear that the children side of things can really kill the sex. [01:17:50] And whilst I understand that it takes two to tango. I think it’s a really, really difficult [01:17:55] element. It is, especially when you’ve got more than 2 or 3 children in the mix, you know, [01:18:00] because it’s a lot. It’s a lot. And I think the woman has to burden a lot. And men. [01:18:05] Did you ever watch the documentary? What was it called? Oh, you know what I’m talking about. That [01:18:10] dating website where people were cheating.

Dr. Tara: Oh. Ashley Madison. Yeah. And then you.

Rhona Eskander: Also see that, like, well, [01:18:15] that guy.

Dr. Tara: Is just trash.

Rhona Eskander: The Christian guy. Yeah. The one that was, like, the one that had, like, three [01:18:20] kids. The one? Yeah. And was pretending he was, like, holier than thou and then like. And [01:18:25] then they kind of, like, got back together. But I was like, you know, like, he talks about the, like, [01:18:30] the banality of, like, you know, like normal life and then coming home to kids and a wife. [01:18:35] So I get that it takes two to tango, but I think really like, mothers have to be given a little bit of [01:18:40] grace. One of the difficulty for the difficulty of like, especially when they’re the ones left [01:18:45] to deal with the kids, like you’re not going to feel the sexiest with like, sit down. You’re like top and like weight [01:18:50] gain and all that stuff. I think that is something where we have to just give a bit of grace as well. You know.

Dr. Tara: 100%. [01:18:55] Um, I think that there is. So there’s that’s two [01:19:00] different issues for me. One is the [01:19:05] the couple not having healthy communication. That’s [01:19:10] what I’m saying. It takes two to tango. Not the cheating part. Okay. So yes, [01:19:15] you are a wife and a mother of four children. There is definitely [01:19:20] a communication factor that you can be doing better [01:19:25] in your relationship that will not only benefit the relationship, but will benefit the [01:19:30] children. Yeah, children can feed off a parent’s energy. They feed off [01:19:35] of role model whether they’re good or bad or mediocre. Um, so [01:19:40] that communication between two people needs to be very, [01:19:45] very strong. And that is something everyone can do. Um, The sex [01:19:50] part is completely different. The sex part. If there’s an issue, see a therapist. See [01:19:55] a sex coach, a sex therapist, sexological bodyworkers, somatic worker, whatever. [01:20:00] There’s so many modalities when it comes to sexual wellness. But that’s a different [01:20:05] issue. Yeah. The communication issue though is something like, for example, if the husband [01:20:10] is feeling neglected by the wife because the wife spends all the time with children because she has [01:20:15] to. Right. Um, then the husband should have said something. Yeah. And if [01:20:20] the husband says something, the wife, does she go then? Hey, but listen to me. Here’s here’s [01:20:25] where I’m coming from. I spend all my time taking care of the children. Right. So there needs to be [01:20:30] communication and compromise.

Dr. Tara: Yeah. However, a lot of these couples can’t find, [01:20:35] um, a moment of compromise because [01:20:40] a lot of times they are very defensive. Yeah. Of what they have to do, and rightfully [01:20:45] so. Like you said, like if you’re a woman taking care of four children. And then also [01:20:50] on top of that, probably have to work. Yeah. Um, is there energy to have [01:20:55] sex? Probably not. Yeah. Probably not. But. So that’s why you have to talk [01:21:00] about it. Listen, babe, I have no energy. Yeah. So what can we do at this point? Is it child [01:21:05] care? Is it staycations? Yeah. Is it that, you know? Yeah. Every [01:21:10] once a month, we put the children in childcare or grandparents take care of them. We go on a [01:21:15] staycation and we have a connecting sexual. Yeah. Um. Session together. What [01:21:20] is the solution here? Because blaming each other is not is [01:21:25] not an effective strategy at this point saying, oh, it’s her fault because she [01:21:30] doesn’t give me attention, it’s his fault for doing blah blah blah. Like it really doesn’t [01:21:35] work. So like like this is kind of our conversation. Prior divisive [01:21:40] strategies don’t work. Yeah. How do we collaborate? Yeah, that’s gonna work. So yeah, [01:21:45] like I feel really bad for a lot of women that are my clients that get cheated on because it’s very, [01:21:50] very freaking common. It’s so. But do you think they can? I mean, do you think? [01:21:55]

Rhona Eskander: But interestingly, what I find fascinating about Esther Pearl’s conversation is also the notion of like women [01:22:00] cheating as well, because I think that happens a lot more than people think. And I’ll never forget [01:22:05] the example she gave. She talks about in her Ted talk about her client called Priya. And Priya comes [01:22:10] from like the perfect, like, you know, strict Asian background. And she does everything to be the perfect daughter [01:22:15] and the perfect wife. And then she ends up, like, cheating on her husband with the tree surgeon. That’s, like, covered in tattoos. [01:22:20] You know, that’s completely different to her husband and having an affair with him. And it’s like, oh, okay. But like, [01:22:25] Priya is living the adolescence that she never had because of the repression, you know? And [01:22:30] I think that people think that this is so black and white. I’ve had many debates with people and as I [01:22:35] said, I do not endorse the type of behaviour, but it’s complex. We’re complex beings with complex experiences. [01:22:40] And, you know, we need to understand. But do you feel that a lot of your clients can or [01:22:45] cannot recover from cheating with their partner like they can work through it. Or do you feel like [01:22:50] too much damage more often than not has been done?

Dr. Tara: That’s a great question. [01:22:55] And now that I’m thinking about it, it’s really 50 over 50. Really? Yeah, there’s actually [01:23:00] quite a few people that couldn’t cope and had to get a divorce. [01:23:05] I mean, granted, okay. Like one of them like had sex [01:23:10] with a wedding planner, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There’s like no coming [01:23:15] back from that. But like, I’m like, when they come see me the first session and they tell me the situation, I’m like, no guys. [01:23:20]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Dr. Tara: Like yeah, I don’t know.

Rhona Eskander: So you do a lot of couples work too. Yeah.

Dr. Tara: Yeah I actually do like [01:23:25] majority couples work. Yeah. Um, because it’s usually either the wife or the husband. Find me [01:23:30] on Instagram and it’s like, oh, what’s she saying, I resonate, let’s reach out, let’s meet [01:23:35] her. Let’s see what she thinks about our situation. So that’s like typically the how it goes on. But [01:23:40] yeah like people like that where another one is like he like, secretly, [01:23:45] you know, goes to these sex parties and by himself in a different [01:23:50] city and tell her that he goes on like business trips, for example, like something like [01:23:55] that is never going to work. She wants a monogamous relationship. He doesn’t want a monogamous relationship. [01:24:00] Like just by the core. It won’t work. So I just tell them that I just told them, [01:24:05] well, listen, I can help you. We can come up with a plan like coaching, right? We can come up with a goal, [01:24:10] then formulate a plan. But you must stick to it. But they can’t stick to it because the guy isn’t [01:24:15] meant to be. Yeah. That guy. Not every guy. That guy isn’t meant to be in a monogamous [01:24:20] relationship. So for those people, get a divorce. But there are [01:24:25] people that you know. So, for example, one of my clients had a lapse of judgement in Vegas, [01:24:30] right? That they came in together. She’s heartbroken. You know, she’s [01:24:35] she’s the she’s a she’s the breadwinner, doctor breadwinner. Um, [01:24:40] they have one child. He feels super neglected because he’s kind of like his masculinity.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. [01:24:45]

Dr. Tara: Yeah. He’s always left taking care of the baby because she does night shifts. [01:24:50] Um, and always tired. And so they at that point, they [01:24:55] haven’t had sex for a year. Yeah. Wow. So he went, you know, to [01:25:00] bachelor party. Vegas. Lapse of judgement. Had sex with this one person. Right. And super [01:25:05] guilty about it. But anyways, they actually continue on to text. It wasn’t like a [01:25:10] one night stand. Right. They continue on to text. And that’s where she found out. Like through.

Rhona Eskander: The messages. [01:25:15] Yeah.

Dr. Tara: And so that was really hard. And [01:25:20] everyone was heartbroken. However they were able to come back from [01:25:25] it from it. We worked on it. We formulate a plan of them having a more proactive [01:25:30] sex life. Don’t take it to the back burner. Obviously, it’s important to both of you to feel desired [01:25:35] and happy, so we must do something about it. Um, so we create a whole plan and [01:25:40] it was like, um, over the course of three months and they stuck to it [01:25:45] and, oh, it’s just beautiful how how it turned out.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And I think some couples come can [01:25:50] come back from it. My God, I could talk to you for days. I’m like, I need to go for dinner with you. For lunch with you? Like we should. [01:25:55] Yeah. Like, honestly, it’s been incredible.

Dr. Tara: I definitely want to hear more about you. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I mean, [01:26:00] I would love that.

Dr. Tara: Complicated life, and I, you know. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So you make it complicated, [01:26:05] as in, like, all the different things I do.

Dr. Tara: Well, no. Just like from the past, like. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I [01:26:10] mean, there’s so much like, there’s just so much trauma and things like that and like, delving into it, but, [01:26:15] um, I will talk to you about that. Now, what is the plans for your future?

Dr. Tara: Yeah. You [01:26:20] mean personal life. Professional life?

Rhona Eskander: So what what what would you like to see happen? Like [01:26:25] what? Is there anything that we should be even more excited about? We know that you’ve got Celebs Go Dating coming [01:26:30] out. Yeah, you’ve got possibly got a book. Is there anything else on the horizon?

Dr. Tara: Yeah. So I got a book deal last [01:26:35] year and it’s coming out next year. It’s called expertise, and it’s going to [01:26:40] be iconic. Um, a cultural movement. I’m launching my, um, [01:26:45] uh, I’m launching my brand called love. Amazing. Um, and the first [01:26:50] product is going to be a, um, an organic, coconut oil based intimate oil. [01:26:55] I love it. Um, so that’s that. We I have actually a brand [01:27:00] new column coming out in Women’s Health magazine. I love it called Sixth Floor. Um, [01:27:05] and, yeah, hopefully, hopefully a baby.

Rhona Eskander: I love that for you. [01:27:10]

Dr. Tara: I’m ready. Yeah. I want to get pregnant. I want to, yeah. I’m ready. Okay.

Rhona Eskander: We’re gonna see this absolute firecracker [01:27:15] of a child come out. Oh, yeah. I’m so excited. I’m so excited. Thank [01:27:20] you so, so much. I have literally loved this talk. I think you’re incredible. Could you just please tell everybody your [01:27:25] Instagram handle and your TikTok handle if they want to follow you?

Dr. Tara: Yes. It’s at lovebites.co. That’s [01:27:30] lovebites.co.

Rhona Eskander: Thank you so much. Thank you to Tara. [01:27:35] It was incredible. Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: But the one that’s important to you is experience, right? It’s difficult to measure that, isn’t it?

Kunal Thakker: Yeah. And so coming to experience. So this is one [00:00:05] we’re really really focusing on right now. And the patient experience. Because when you go on things like Trustpilot [00:00:10] or Google reviews you know you’re not always you’re either going to get two extremes. You’re going to get the patient that’s got [00:00:15] really upset and hasn’t had an opportunity to vent their frustration in practice. Right. Okay. Or [00:00:20] you’ve got the, um, you’ve got the ones where you’ve said, oh, please [00:00:25] leave me a Google review. Right. Yeah. Naturally, they’re going to sit in the chair. They’re going to give you a five star whilst they sat there in the chair giving [00:00:30] you a five star. So that doesn’t give me a real perspective on the actually going on what’s actually [00:00:35] going on. So you know. So we’re looking at ways in which of how we change, how we change things [00:00:40] and really analyse experience. Now one of the things that concepts that I’m looking at and this is [00:00:45] still very fresh actually my management team don’t even know know about this completely.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:50] is Dental Leaders, [00:00:55] the podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:01:00] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:05] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:01:10] gives me great pleasure to welcome Kunal Thakkar onto the podcast. Kunal [00:01:15] has got a very interesting past life in banking. Um, [00:01:20] Goldman Sachs guy. Um, I think then you went on to HSBC [00:01:25] after that. So banker first and foremost, before he got into the world of dentistry, [00:01:30] but then got into the world of dentistry in a very quick way. Um, I think first you had a group of three [00:01:35] practices that you sold. Yeah. And then what most [00:01:40] of us would, would think of when we think of you is, is Tooth Club. Um, which is [00:01:45] how many now?

Kunal Thakker: So we’re actually we’re building number 12 and we’re just about to [00:01:50] start number 13. So 13. Yeah. So amazing.

Payman Langroudi: And so membership [00:01:55] based high street squat Squats, sort of funky sort of Instagram [00:02:00] type practices. Right? Is that what?

Kunal Thakker: Yeah. Let me take you back actually even pre [00:02:05] kind of Goldman Sachs. So yeah. So my love hate relationship with dentistry [00:02:10] came from when I was a child. Um, and something I haven’t told on a podcast before actually. [00:02:15] So, um, I grew up as a child, uh, hated going to the dentist. Um, [00:02:20] and I was born, born and brought up in East London. I used to have a dental practice on Green Street, actually [00:02:25] still exist. And this practice was just awful. I used to walk into this practice, [00:02:30] still smell it today. I can smell that horrible disinfectant smell. Um, and, [00:02:35] you know, I could there was, like, these dirty toys on the side. I wasn’t sure whether you’re allowed to play with them or not. And then the receptionist [00:02:40] just wouldn’t look up. It was like she was just an NHS proper or NHS old school. And [00:02:45] then, you know, Doctor Tindall was the dentist name. I still remember the name. Doctor Tindall was in the back with his door [00:02:50] open and you could just hear that drilling, sawing noise. It was horrendous. The anxiety [00:02:55] Society there in the waiting room was horrendous and as a child I needed [00:03:00] orthodontic treatment. What I thought was orthodontic treatment. And so I got a referral, [00:03:05] got a note through the, um, the post, and I got sent to one of the central London hospitals [00:03:10] and they actually said, no, you don’t need orthodontic treatment, you need to have surgery. You need to have orthognathic. [00:03:15] Yes, I had a class three jaw at the time and it was horrendous. And [00:03:20] I remember going there and it was it was awful. And I um, and they sent us a follow up [00:03:25] appointment, and I got the appointment and I ripped it up and put it in the bin. Right. Without [00:03:30] my mum seeing. And so my mum just assumed this appointment never, never came. And [00:03:35] so she chased the appointment. Another postcard, got a postcard through the door, tore that up. [00:03:40] And I never got the treatment done. And it was because I was so terrified and so petrified.

Payman Langroudi: The source of [00:03:45] the fear. Had you had one bad experience? Do you.

Kunal Thakker: Know? I just think the whole experience was so anxiety, [00:03:50] fearful. Um, I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes they say, I mean, obviously in dental school this [00:03:55] is a big question, right? They they talk about it a lot. And it’s interesting. The phobias [00:04:00] there’s an obvious cause of a phobia is if you’ve had a bad experience. But the more [00:04:05] common cause of a phobia is familial phobia, where the family spreads [00:04:10] the story that, oh, going to the dentist is scary, or flying on planes [00:04:15] is scary or whatever the phobia is. But, you know, do you remember a story like that in the family?

Kunal Thakker: So not necessarily [00:04:20] a story, but going to the dentist as a child was never pleasurable. Everyone always, you know, you know, [00:04:25] you used to go to the dentist because you’ve got toothache and toothache would be extremely painful. The whole [00:04:30] experience was just horrendous. And and I don’t think there was the education that we have now around [00:04:35] good oral hygiene as well. Right? Yeah. Um, although I think it was more strict about going to the dentist every six [00:04:40] months. Um, but that, that, that experience and that whole environment and just, [00:04:45] you know, even I think it’s also about who you connect with. I’m a real people person. I bounce off energy. Um, and [00:04:50] I never bounced off his energy. And I think, in fact, I was almost very scared by his energy and I’d be very stuck [00:04:55] in that chair. And that’s that’s where my relationship with dentistry started. And as I [00:05:00] went through my career, I never, ever wanted to do dentistry, never a passion to do dentistry at [00:05:05] all. Um, and it wasn’t even necessarily, um, a desire. I then kind of [00:05:10] went into the finance world because it was kind of the thing to do. Um, and I joined HSBC. [00:05:15] Um, I did a little internship at HSBC, actually. First, that was my, uh, [00:05:20] entry into Goldman Sachs. Graduated from university, uh, got a job at Goldman Sachs. [00:05:25] I did it because the money was there. Everyone said it was a sexy career.

Payman Langroudi: Did you study at university?

Kunal Thakker: I [00:05:30] did business and finance. Um, and so it was kind of a natural. What did your parents [00:05:35] do? My parents owned a shop, so actually on Green Street. So they had a they had a shop and.

Payman Langroudi: Classic [00:05:40] corner.

Kunal Thakker: Shop, well, kind of corner ish shop, but we had a newsagent and then we [00:05:45] had a video shop. So a couple of shops. So my.

Payman Langroudi: My co-host Prav, I don’t know if you’ve come across him.

Kunal Thakker: Yes [00:05:50] I have, yeah Of course. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, his dad had a shop. Yeah. And him [00:05:55] and his brother, Kailash Solanki. They are some of the most successful [00:06:00] people I’ve ever come across in business terms. They really are super successful. Both of [00:06:05] them. And, um. Prav puts it all down to the shop. Yeah. The interactions [00:06:10] with the public. Yeah. In the shop. And his thing was that, you know, if you if you [00:06:15] work in a shop, especially like a general store. Yeah. You see, the whole of society [00:06:20] come by from the guy coming in to get his cigarettes. The old, the old, dear who needs to have a conversation [00:06:25] with you? The thief? Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember the shop being [00:06:30] an influence on you in that people person?

Kunal Thakker: A massive influence because a lot of people remember their childhoods. Like [00:06:35] playing outside. Mine wasn’t. Mine was helping my parents in the shop over the summer holidays. Yeah. You know, [00:06:40] stocking up the fridge when the cash and carry had arrived. And so there was a lot of that in my childhood. But then [00:06:45] also, um, my parents were always pro us working and getting work experience and [00:06:50] so ended up doing. I always had a Saturday job, so I worked in Woolworths, worked in Tkmaxx [00:06:55] and those experiences are amazing.

Payman Langroudi: What was what was the driver of that? Was it was it that your [00:07:00] dad said, you’re going to go and work and go because that that did happen to me, or [00:07:05] was it? And sometimes I hear this story, and the people who tell this story tend to be [00:07:10] super successful. People that I’ve come across is I just wanted stuff. Yeah. There was [00:07:15] a phone or a computer or a pair of trainers I wanted and [00:07:20] the money wasn’t there, so I just went and went and earned the money.

Kunal Thakker: You know, it wasn’t it actually wasn’t [00:07:25] that actually, because my parents were very much, um, you have to save my dad always taught us [00:07:30] to save. Um, and so even though we had a Saturday job, it was always about [00:07:35] 75% of that Saturday job. The money had to be saved and went into savings. We had one of those Abbey National, [00:07:40] uh, kind of logbooks. So no, I think it was more the work ethic of, you know, you [00:07:45] can’t be a freeloader. Nothing can in life are free. Go work. Learn to graft. Um. [00:07:50] And I actually really loved Saturday job. Made some of the best friends there that I’m still in touch with. [00:07:55] Um, and I think that that just gave me the ability to graft. So when Prav says, um, you know, it’s [00:08:00] a shop days, it really was, you know, that commercial retail, um, kind [00:08:05] of learning, I think has gone through my entire entire journey and [00:08:10] even in dentistry today. Right? Yeah. You know, I don’t have a problem cleaning my practice because I’ve been brought [00:08:15] up doing that. Um, you know, it’s it’s, you know, setting up for a CQC practice [00:08:20] when we’re doing one of our squads, I go in there and rolled my sleeves up, get absolutely dirty because I’ve [00:08:25] been used to. I think, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Chris Barrow talks about how, um, it’s good to hire a [00:08:30] practice manager or as many people as you can in your practice, from a background of [00:08:35] someone whose parents were business owners. Yeah. Because when when your parents are business owners, and I think [00:08:40] my kids, probably my kids probably know this too. There are moments where the business is number one. [00:08:45] Yeah. And everyone understands that. Yeah. Well, if your parents were employees. [00:08:50] Yeah. They don’t necessarily understand that. No. You know, like what you’re saying about CQC [00:08:55] there? Yeah.

Kunal Thakker: It’s. You know, it’s true because I always say because I [00:09:00] have a lot of respect for the work my parents went through and the journey that my parents went through, um, [00:09:05] working, working the shop. I mean, 60, 70 hours a week. Um, and [00:09:10] they did it with a smile on their face. Never once moaned, you know. And that’s the work ethic, the graft that I [00:09:15] love. But I also believe when you’re trying to scale up a group and I’m going through [00:09:20] my childhood, I mean, some of it’s actually childhood trauma. Because what I’ve been taught and I’ve had to undo [00:09:25] some of some of the things, is my parents wouldn’t necessarily be able [00:09:30] to afford to hire someone, so they grafted a lot. So why are we going to pay someone else to do it when we can do it ourselves? [00:09:35] Yeah. And actually, when you’re scaling up a business, actually you do need to employ people. You do need to hire [00:09:40] people around you. Um, so that you can go and do the value added stuff and to scale up. [00:09:45] So for me, in my journey, um, at Tooth Club has been a lot about undoing some of the oh, I [00:09:50] could do it myself. I could do it. No, actually, do you know what? I’m going to hire the best people around me to do it.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:09:55] did you learn that at Goldman?

Kunal Thakker: Huh? No, I didn’t actually. I learned it through Tooth Club. I learned it up to Tooth Club [00:10:00] because I got to a point in my tooth Club journey where I couldn’t do everything, I couldn’t do everything. [00:10:05] And then, you know, and what I also learned is there are people that are better at things than me. [00:10:10]

Payman Langroudi: Pretty much everything.

Kunal Thakker: Exactly. Absolutely. You know, higher talent, people around you and hire. [00:10:15] And I’m still learning this as well. You know, I want to hire people that are just as passionate about my brand [00:10:20] and about my company as I am. And actually, I spend most of my time thinking about how I’m going [00:10:25] to make people feel passionate about Tooth Club so that they can help us, help us scale.

Payman Langroudi: Have [00:10:30] you heard, um, Gary Vee talking? Sometimes he talks about his father’s liquor store. [00:10:35] I haven’t. Do you know about it? No, I don’t, so his father was a Russian immigrant, made him work every [00:10:40] hour. And he said in that liquor store he could see mistakes his dad was making. Yeah. [00:10:45] And then at one point, he takes it over and it goes suddenly from $2 million to $60 million. Yeah. [00:10:50] But but is there any of that? So there’s there’s one that you just mentioned. Yeah. Anything [00:10:55] else? Like, because, you know, that sort of first generation mindset sometimes [00:11:00] is like a non-trusting. Yeah. Mindset. Sometimes it’s a purely on a cash basis [00:11:05] because it’s survival. Exactly. That’s the key. Like they’re not going borrowing 5 million from the bank or whatever. [00:11:10]

Kunal Thakker: Yeah. There is you know there’s definitely the risk element. So certainly, um, you [00:11:15] know, my dad loves what we’re building at Tooth Club, and he’s probably one of my biggest fans. And, you know, he wants to look at [00:11:20] my PNL, and he’s asking me how much we’re borrowing and all this kind of stuff. But there is definitely, [00:11:25] um, a risk averse mindset there. Whereas I’m like, actually, do you know what? Measured risk [00:11:30] where I’ve proven the model, I’m not going to be reckless. I have self-belief and trust that I’m not going to be reckless, [00:11:35] um, to go to go and do that. Absolutely. I also think there’s a Generally, [00:11:40] especially with some of the podcasts that I listen to about failure. And you know it’s [00:11:45] okay to fail. Yeah, you know, it is okay to fail because actually you can learn. [00:11:50] And some of my biggest successes have come in have come from where I failed, learn and bounce [00:11:55] back. Um, and I think that that concepts more readily understood now [00:12:00] these days. Yeah. These days for sure. Whereas I think kind of in the past, you know, even, uh, one [00:12:05] of the one of my backstories as well is I did my A levels and I failed them, [00:12:10] I did classic my parents wanted me to be a doctor.

Kunal Thakker: Good Indian boy. Go and do. Go and be a doctor. Biology. Chemistry? [00:12:15] Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Failed them. Absolutely. Hated every minute of it. Um, [00:12:20] I was like, what am I doing here? And I did really well at GCSEs. Right. So because I did well at GCSE, it was [00:12:25] the assumed thing that you’re going to do them at A-level. But A-level and GCE is a different a completely different game. But I also [00:12:30] think, you know if you love something you do you’re going to do really, really well at it. So I failed [00:12:35] my first year and they’re like, oh, you’ve just reset them. Absolutely not. I went and kind of put my foot down and said, I’m going [00:12:40] to do the A-levels I want. And I went and did accounting business and I did drama. Probably drama [00:12:45] to kind of, you know, really kind of rebel against against the sciences. And I did [00:12:50] really well and I really enjoyed what I did. And it was a really a turning point in my life because I kind of said, actually, [00:12:55] I’m going to be making my own decisions no one’s making. Did you stay.

Payman Langroudi: At home for uni or did you leave?

Kunal Thakker: Do you know? Funnily enough, [00:13:00] I stayed at home, but that was my decision. It wasn’t really a oh, you can’t, you know, you can’t live out. You [00:13:05] can’t. I actually chose to live at home. I wanted to go to a London uni. I wanted to experience the London nightlife [00:13:10] and that first year of freshers lifestyle. So I made the choice to to to [00:13:15] stay at home. But my uni years were probably the best, uh uh best. But you [00:13:20] know, again, I, you know, I had an offer from Kings to do business and maths and [00:13:25] everyone said, oh, you’ve got to go to King’s, you’ve got to take the, the offer at King’s, it’s like, no, I’m not [00:13:30] going to King’s, I’m going to go to Westminster. Well Westminster’s not the same level as King’s. And I said, no, I’m going to do [00:13:35] Westminster because I preferred the course, so it was always that was a turning point about making my [00:13:40] own decisions. Um, and also being accountable for my own decisions because I can’t, you know, [00:13:45] because I sit here today and say, I did business, I did biology, chemistry, maths because my parents wanted [00:13:50] to me, I’m kind of blaming them. Yeah, yeah. No, I need to own my own decisions. I allowed myself to be swayed. [00:13:55] Whereas now I think there’s a not an arrogance. I still take feedback. I still [00:14:00] take people’s point of view across. But when I make a decision, ultimate accountability sits here. [00:14:05] Yeah. And that’s that’s so I think when we talk about traumas or kind of influences, [00:14:10] um, from childhood, these are the things that have been been really important.

Payman Langroudi: So I want to get into two [00:14:15] aspects. I definitely want to get into two, but I want to get into two aspects before that. Number one, [00:14:20] the sort of disruptor mindset that you’ve clearly got. Yeah. [00:14:25] Where do you think that comes from?

Kunal Thakker: It’s so interesting. You’re [00:14:30] really good at this because I think, you know, because we before we started this, you said, oh, you know, I’ve done a few podcasts, [00:14:35] but actually you’re getting things out of me that I’ve not really talked about on podcasts. So the disruptor mindset [00:14:40] comes from. So when I say when I wanted to go into dentistry, [00:14:45] um, I went on a course, um, how to buy your first dental practice course, and [00:14:50] I met a lawyer there, and that lawyer said to me, oh, you’re not a dentist, you’re never going to buy a dental practice. [00:14:55] And and it’s a big law firm still, actually, they’ve just actually I can’t say, [00:15:00] but yeah, still a big law firm. Big law firm. And, um, you know, they and they and they said [00:15:05] that to me and I so that was, you know, when someone’s.

Payman Langroudi: In your craw.

Kunal Thakker: That [00:15:10] got you. That got me. It’s interesting, isn’t it? You tell me I can’t do something, I’m going to do it and I’m going to do it ten times harder. [00:15:15] But along the journey, I mean, that was probably the start. But along the journey, there have [00:15:20] been a lot of people that have said, you can’t do this, you’re not a dentist or you don’t understand [00:15:25] this, how could you understand this? You’re not clinical. You know you’ve not got a BDS or I’m more qualified than you [00:15:30] because I’ve been to King’s and I.

Payman Langroudi: Say that that drives you. Yeah. [00:15:35] And that why?

Kunal Thakker: Why drives me. Why?

Payman Langroudi: Why like, where was it like, at what point did someone sort of [00:15:40] mis misrepresent you or think think [00:15:45] that you’re not good enough? That made you think. Was it something in childhood?

Kunal Thakker: Hmm. [00:15:50] Do you know? I think there’s there’s there’s moments in childhood. [00:15:55] So. So my personality is is I’m I was really, really nice. And I will treat you [00:16:00] with a huge amount of respect. But if you cross me, then you’ll see a different side. And I think [00:16:05] there’s always been that. Scorpio. Scorpio. Yeah, well, no cancer actually, but it’s [00:16:10] it’s it’s a bit of a sting in the tail actually. Sting because, you know, the thing [00:16:15] is, is I always want to give people the benefit of the doubt. And I always will be open. You come into my home. It is your home. [00:16:20] You’re welcome. And and not not just surface level. Wholeheartedly. Yeah. You [00:16:25] know, you come, you know, you come into my practices. You come into my world. Um, but then there’s, [00:16:30] you know, but I’m not naive and I’m not silly. I may be open and nice [00:16:35] and warm and welcoming, but I’m not silly. I know people.

Payman Langroudi: Mistake that sometimes.

Kunal Thakker: Sometimes they do, and sometimes [00:16:40] they take advantage of that and where and and I pick up on that very quickly because it’s happened so many [00:16:45] times. You’ve seen the pattern, I see the pattern and I see where it happens. And I’m not necessarily [00:16:50] one that’s going to bite back and I’m not going to go in and sting necessarily, but I will remove myself from that situation. [00:16:55] Um, and that’s and that’s always been my, my personality and, and [00:17:00] it’s, and it’s hard because, you know, it’s these things that make you think, oh, this is my drive. This is my energy, actually. [00:17:05] Why I’m successful in dentistry or why I have been successful in the practice I’ve done, is because of the people [00:17:10] I’ve always surrounded myself with really, really, really good people. People that are humble, [00:17:15] people that have taken the time. When I started dentistry, I didn’t know what composite was, right? [00:17:20] Yeah, I knew it as a white filling as a patient. So I said, what’s this word, composite? But people took the time [00:17:25] to explain this is composite take out, you know, take out the composite. Show me what it is. It’s a white filling. So [00:17:30] I was like, okay, great. And then you know, so and they’ve also these people have also made me feel [00:17:35] like I could ask those stupid questions early on in my Dental career so that now I can [00:17:40] have a full fledged conversation with a clinician. Um, and I always respect the fact that dentists has done the BDS. [00:17:45] They’ve gone to uni, they’ve done the five year sacrifice plus the training post. So I always have a [00:17:50] huge amount of respect. So whenever I’m talking to a dentist, I always caveat, look, I’m not a dentist, but I can certainly see it [00:17:55] from a patient perspective. Um, and I think having that trust and relationship, um, and I’ve had more [00:18:00] good people than bad people on this journey.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s a skill in itself. Finding [00:18:05] those people, keeping those people, keeping those people on. Definitely. The other question, what’s [00:18:10] the thing that surprised you the most about dentistry?

Kunal Thakker: The [00:18:15] ego. The ego that that tends to be in dentistry and not everywhere. [00:18:20] Not not everywhere. But certainly there is a lot of, of of ego, um, [00:18:25] in dentistry because I come from a place so, you know, at Goldman Sachs, there was [00:18:30] generally a culture where you are encouraging, supporting each other. [00:18:35] Uh, you know, you tend to go up the ranks yourself. You know, you know, when we started [00:18:40] the Goldman Sachs graduation program, you were part of a club. Of course, there was an element of competition. Who’s [00:18:45] going to get promoted first? But generally underlyingly, if someone called you for help, you were collaboratively [00:18:50] working together, you were helping. There was a general consensus to improve. And even [00:18:55] outside of Goldman Sachs, we used to work in industry groups. The whole industry wanted to improve. Um, [00:19:00] and there was a real desire to work with each other because you knew that if the industry got better. [00:19:05]

Payman Langroudi: The overriding goal.

Kunal Thakker: And and within Dental, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: So surprising to hear [00:19:10] that bankers have less ego than dentists. But go on, go on.

Kunal Thakker: They do. Honestly, [00:19:15] they do. And I think but I also think in banking there’s always someone there that’s better than you. There’s [00:19:20] always someone at some level, you know, if you’re an MD, there’s a partner that’s better than you. There’s [00:19:25] partner, there’s someone on the exec level that’s better than you. So there’s always this desire. And I [00:19:30] think, and because you’re always striving to get to that next level and those levels are very clear. You [00:19:35] know, one of the things in banking is people don’t like egos. People people generally want [00:19:40] to work with nice people. And so you see that those people that can’t do that get filtered out [00:19:45] very early on probably don’t even get to MD. So I think I came to dentistry and I saw [00:19:50] a lot of this competition, and it is changing and it’s really evolving. So one [00:19:55] of the things is I’m part of a dental group, and those dental groups are really cutting all the small [00:20:00] groups that are not private equity backed, and they’re all helping each other and they all kind of giving each other little [00:20:05] snippets. You know, if I want to change an accountancy firm, for example, I can say, guys, have you used an accountancy firm [00:20:10] that you’d recommend and people would kind of help each other out? So you’re starting to see that evolution. [00:20:15] Was that.

Payman Langroudi: The ADR?

Kunal Thakker: No, actually. So you’ve [00:20:20] got the ADG, but actually, um Jin and Krish, the Smile Clinic group have put [00:20:25] together a group with their network and it’s kind of evolved. So when we were at the Dental forum, there was a few more groups [00:20:30] that joined. So everyone’s at a different size. So, you know, you’ve got kind of Demir and [00:20:35] Pip who have kind of got the bigger groups in that space. And then you’ve got, you know, us kind of more middle ground, [00:20:40] and then you’ve got the people that kind of got 2 or 3 that are still early on in their journey, but generally everyone’s [00:20:45] trying to help each other because there’s so much that can be achieved by working together. And I think that I [00:20:50] think it’s changing, but I do think it certainly did shock me.

Payman Langroudi: So the ego surprised you now? [00:20:55] Have you managed to find a way of handling the egos, or do [00:21:00] you try and filter for that when you’re hiring or what’s the story?

Kunal Thakker: So our [00:21:05] culture at Goldman. Goldman’s our our culture and values at Tooth Club are really, really important. [00:21:10] And we’re really strong about what our culture and values look like. And we hire of culture [00:21:15] and values. So we will hire people with less skill, right clinically [00:21:20] but have the right attitude and skill sets and ability. And then we’ve got the Truth Club Training Academy, which is [00:21:25] really focussed on bringing people up in terms of their clinical skill sets. And we’ve had some great stories, [00:21:30] great success stories where people come in, you know, they’ve, you know, had probably a year post-grad [00:21:35] and they’re still doing the general really excited to do things like composite bonding, um, Invisalign. [00:21:40] And we’ll help take them on that journey with the right clinical supervision, right training courses, [00:21:45] the right materials and stock equipment. And that for us has worked really, really well. And, [00:21:50] um, I was looking at our retention rate around our associate level. So our retention rates, [00:21:55] over 98% of associates that start with us, stay with us. Um, and ah. [00:22:00] So how long so have not left.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, guys.

Kunal Thakker: Have not left to this date. So [00:22:05] we’ve been on this journey for four years, so have not left. Um, and I think and [00:22:10] I, and I, and I think it comes down to relationships that we build with these guys. We make sure their diaries [00:22:15] are full. We make sure they’re making good money, they’re doing nice dentistry, and they’re set up to work in a really [00:22:20] nice environment. So, you know, and that’s why, um, I think, um, you know, that’s [00:22:25] kind of been our success. But hiring off culture, hiring people that align to your values, I think [00:22:30] are really important. And trust me, there’s many times where I’ve interviewed really strong clinicians. Great. [00:22:35] You know, because I can tell now I’ve interviewed so many dentists, I can tell the ones that are junior, the ones [00:22:40] that, you know, are confident, um, the ones that are that have had kind [00:22:45] of five, seven, eight years out of university but are not necessarily confident, um, [00:22:50] and it’s more of a soft skill thing. I can see the differences, but we will turn down dentists that we feel [00:22:55] that even in a tough recruitment environment, we will turn down dentists that don’t fit our our culture and [00:23:00] values and aren’t on the same vision and mission as we are.

Payman Langroudi: And is [00:23:05] your biggest problem right now? Recruitment? No. What’s your biggest problem right now?

Kunal Thakker: Uh, [00:23:10] finding new squat sites, finding high street locations.

Payman Langroudi: So many of those. Right.

Kunal Thakker: So there are so, so [00:23:15] we are so we’re looking at we’re looking to build. So right now. So we’re in the process [00:23:20] of building one. We just signed a lease on another. So we’re about to start the building, work on that. And then I’ve [00:23:25] got another one that’s in the pipeline. So we’re now looking for the fourth one so we can get to kind of 15 practices. Um, [00:23:30] they’re finding the right site with the right rental. Uh, is [00:23:35] it takes.

Payman Langroudi: I just see loads of empty shops everywhere. So, yeah, I always think I always thought [00:23:40] that that must play into the hands of the squat owner.

Kunal Thakker: Yeah, but we want to be in the right location. The right high streets [00:23:45] aren’t the ones sitting there with 100 empty units. And that’s. And that’s the difference. It’s about finding the [00:23:50] right sites. So the one that we got signed yesterday, the lease that got signed yesterday is in Guildford. Um, you [00:23:55] know, I’ve been saying, what do you.

Payman Langroudi: What are you looking for. Because visibility and then accessibility. Yeah we. [00:24:00]

Kunal Thakker: A lot. So some of.

Payman Langroudi: The park and.

Kunal Thakker: Stuff. So yeah accessibility. So sometimes you don’t find parking. [00:24:05] Um but you know if there’s train links or good bus links that tends to work. So accessibility is important. [00:24:10] Good footfall really, really important. Um, you know the demand for [00:24:15] dentistry is really important as well. Um, how do you measure that. So we. So a couple of things. So [00:24:20] we test Google AdWords. We test social media adverts and say we pretend to have a practice [00:24:25] in that area and see the response rates. Um, and we test and measure those. We [00:24:30] also ring around local practices. How easy is it to get an appointment? Um, those [00:24:35] kinds of things tend to be what gives us comfort. Um, and then honestly, you go and talk to people. [00:24:40] So when we’re in Guildford, we’ll spend the day in Guildford, we’ll go and talk to the guy that’s got the fruit and veg store, [00:24:45] the dry cleaners next door. Those kinds of people are so good at giving insight into, [00:24:50] um, uh, finding out what works. The other thing that we do is we walk into [00:24:55] we walk into dental practices. We see the service levels that they’re offering in dental practices. How [00:25:00] welcoming are those? If I walk in and then you’ve got a reception that won’t even look up, doesn’t know their prices, aren’t [00:25:05] able to offer you an appointment. Those kinds are all the kinds of telling signs that actually, this is a place where [00:25:10] our model could work really well.

Payman Langroudi: That’s interesting. So [00:25:15] let’s talk about the model. Yeah. What would you say is at the crux of it?

Kunal Thakker: So [00:25:20] the, uh. So I guess Tooth Club was set up on the back of my own anxieties [00:25:25] as a dentist. So as a patient rather. And the idea behind [00:25:30] the model is, is we want to change the whole concept of dentistry. We want it to be more accessible. So the location [00:25:35] is key as to where we do that. We want the practices not to look and feel like your traditional dental [00:25:40] practice. Um, so when you come in, you’ve got a really nice environment that you walk into. So we look [00:25:45] at things like how it looks, how it smells, how you’re greeted, um, and how we try and make our patients feel. [00:25:50] So they’re really, really focussed on, on that. And then the experience in chair as well. So all [00:25:55] of our dental practices and then this is more common now. But we have TV screens. You can watch your favourite episode of [00:26:00] Netflix whilst you’re having your root canal done, but making sure that whole patient journey, um, is really [00:26:05] key. And I’d say, what really? If I was to summarise in a nutshell, what I think [00:26:10] is better than any of our competitors is our patient journey. Because when you come into our clinic, [00:26:15] we’re going to make you feel so special. You’re never going to go back to your old practice again, and you’re going [00:26:20] to tell your friends how great we are. And that and it’s a real high standard and benchmark to set [00:26:25] yourself to. But that’s what we’re striving for. And I think we achieve it probably 80 to [00:26:30] 85% of the time.

Payman Langroudi: The the patient journey. [00:26:35] There’s loads of people doing it very well. Yeah. It’s important to bear that in mind. [00:26:40] Yeah. There’s there’s loads of people doing very badly. Yeah. Um, but there’s loads of people doing it very [00:26:45] well. Yeah. Um, don’t you feel, though, that the patient journey is something that’s kind of number [00:26:50] one? Copyable. But number two, the big issue with the patient journey is [00:26:55] that scale gets in the way of it that, you know, it’s [00:27:00] we’re not talking about a commodified product. Like, it’s not something that you can buy off a shelf. Yeah. [00:27:05] And so I’m really interested in in businesses where they’re at scale. [00:27:10] But their journeys weren’t marvellous. Yeah. And whatever. Whatever the business.

Kunal Thakker: Is, you know. So. So when [00:27:15] you said to me that when you started off saying, actually, there’s lots, you know, there’s lots of people doing the patient journey well. Yeah. [00:27:20] Um, I would really challenge that because I think there is a lot of people doing [00:27:25] the patient journey well and really having the clinical side at the forefront. [00:27:30] We hear so many practices saying we’re clinically led, we’re clinically led. We’re not. We are [00:27:35] patient led. Of course we have to maintain clinical standards. Of course we have to abide by the law and [00:27:40] do things by the book. Absolutely. I mean, that’s a given. However, we are patient led. Our [00:27:45] whole focus when we’re designing our clinics is about the patient. And then I was going to challenge [00:27:50] you on was saying, yeah, actually there are people that are doing it. Well, I don’t sit here thinking we do it. I don’t sit here saying we do [00:27:55] it perfectly every single time. Hence why I said the 85%. Um, but I also sit [00:28:00] here knowing there’s people that do it. They do it really well, but they do it in their one clinic. Their two [00:28:05] clinic.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s what I mean about scale.

Kunal Thakker: And then like, let’s get to how do we get to ten. How do we get to 15. That’s [00:28:10] what I mean about yeah. And it is a challenge. It is a challenge. And the way and the way that I really focus on, [00:28:15] on doing this is because we systemise our processes. Every part of our patient journey is [00:28:20] systemised, and there’s an element of the human side that has to be humanised. And so, you [00:28:25] know, and as much as possible, you know, 90% of our patient journey is all about systems and [00:28:30] processes. And then that 10% where you need the human touch, that’s where we rely on our people. [00:28:35] So what do we do? How do we get that bit? It’s through training training training training. [00:28:40] And once we’ve trained we need to police it. And we need to we need to monitor ourselves as to how we’re doing. [00:28:45] Um, and that’s what we’re constantly investing in, is making sure our, our systems [00:28:50] and processes are up to date. Do they reflect the current environment, the current patient journey? [00:28:55] And then we go on to are our people able to deliver the the level that we want [00:29:00] to? Every single day for every single patient that walks into our clinics.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:29:05] But break it down for me because if I walk into a Whatever. [00:29:10] Hilton hotel. Yeah. Yeah. Certain things will happen every time. Mhm. Yeah. [00:29:15] But the difference between a good hotel and a great hotel is the [00:29:20] other things. Right. Because certain things happen every time. Good. Great. Yeah. I’d [00:29:25] like to get into those. What are the what are the bits that are prescribed that happen every time. Yeah. But then the other [00:29:30] question is how do you how do you make people what do you what stories do you tell your [00:29:35] team regarding the other side, the softer side. Yeah. And when [00:29:40] you say training. Training. Training. Yeah. What’s that training focussed on? But I’ll answer the first one for me first. [00:29:45]

Kunal Thakker: So I guess, you know.

Payman Langroudi: What are the touch points that have to happen when a patient walks in? [00:29:50] Like is the receptionist has to get up and look in their eyes and shake their hand. Open the door. Do you go that far? [00:29:55]

Kunal Thakker: Yeah. We do. Absolutely we do. So not as far as opening the door, but certainly when the patient comes [00:30:00] in that we removed our phones from reception. There’s no phones on reception. Actually, [00:30:05] they all they all sit in South Africa now. Different story, but in South Africa. But the idea is, is that when you [00:30:10] come into our practice. Yeah. The receptionist is to greet you immediately within the first 15 seconds, [00:30:15] actually. Right. So you’re greeted, okay, we check you in, ask [00:30:20] you to take a seat, and then the receptionist. Will walk around and offer you your favourite beverage.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but before. Before [00:30:25] when you’re. Greeted. Yeah, yeah. Does she already know your name before you walk in. And so. So she [00:30:30] greets you with your name.

Kunal Thakker: So actually the receptionist in the morning will review the diary. Yeah. Um, but [00:30:35] the greeting is all scripted. So even if the patient comes in and actually, for some reason, [00:30:40] actually, they’ve come in 15 minutes early and you’re like, well, actually this patient is supposed to be in, right? Yeah. There [00:30:45] is a script there to welcome the patient. So the patient will normally tell us their name.

Payman Langroudi: Oh sorry sorry sorry sorry [00:30:50] sorry about that. Sorry guys. Give me a second. That that hasn’t happened for a while. That’s [00:30:55] right. Go on.

Kunal Thakker: So, um, so what will happen is the patient will come in and [00:31:00] we’ve got the script. So what we’re trying to do is we have a script, but we do allow the [00:31:05] it. We use a script as a guide because what we don’t want is robots either. Right. Yeah. So [00:31:10] it is. So it’s a time. So we set the time frame as to because there could be other things going on around you. [00:31:15] So we set the time frame as to when you need to greet the patient. The limit obviously if the reception [00:31:20] is empty you’d greet them straight away. But if there’s something going on, you’ve got the receptionist knows you’ve got 15 seconds. These are the [00:31:25] things that we’re training on.

Payman Langroudi: This is a new patient.

Kunal Thakker: Any patient that’s walking in the door, any new or existing.

Payman Langroudi: But then so let’s [00:31:30] say I’m coming to the practice once a month for four months. Am I hit with the same script?

Kunal Thakker: Yeah. You are. Well, [00:31:35] so this is where I say given a script, it’s used as a guide because the minute because you have to systemise, [00:31:40] but you’ve got this 10% of being human as well, right? So you’ve got a system, and I’m not going to say to you that every single [00:31:45] person is going to be using every the right word, every single time, but they’ve got a script that guides them. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So being [00:31:50] able to say, well, we’ve got the exact same situation with people answering the phone. Right. Do we say to them, exactly. [00:31:55] Say this, or do we say to them, make the person feel great and say whatever you want? No.

Kunal Thakker: That’s [00:32:00] the so what we’re saying is here’s your script. Yeah. Right. Okay. But don’t sound like a robot. [00:32:05] So in the training they will do, they’ll run through scenario based. We do a lot of our training. [00:32:10] Uh, it runs on customer service. It’s all about customer service. And a lot of that is role playing. So we’ll role [00:32:15] play the various different scenarios of a patient walking in. How do you greet them? Where do you take them? [00:32:20] Now we don’t use word for word accuracy, but what we do want to do is give the give them the tools [00:32:25] so that they’ve got a guide.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got banned words? Huh?

Kunal Thakker: Like keywords, like [00:32:30] keywords to use.

Payman Langroudi: Words that are not allowed to be used.

Kunal Thakker: Oh. Banned. Banned words. No, actually we don’t [00:32:35] we don’t have banned.

Payman Langroudi: I had a guy on here. He’s got 50 banned. Words are things like surgery. [00:32:40] Oh, yeah. Um, things like running late. Ah. He’s got other [00:32:45] words that they use instead of. I used to work in a practice. You weren’t allowed to say the word dentist. Oh, [00:32:50] wow. Yeah. This guy, he was like surgeon. Which surgeon do you see? Which [00:32:55] surgeon do you see? Great. Yeah, well, this guy, he said. Oh, no, I would never say that because surgeon implies [00:33:00] surgery. Right. So it depends on what you’re trying to run, right. Fantastic.

Kunal Thakker: Because you know. So actually. So [00:33:05] interview me in four weeks time and I’m gonna have a list of banned words. Now, that’s a great idea because, you know, [00:33:10] just anecdotally, like, you know, when we’re doing our for our treatment coordinators, another element we spend a lot invest [00:33:15] a lot of our time in for them as well. You know, we try and not use certain words [00:33:20] like, you know, for implants. It’s a screw. And they you know, they drill the screw. [00:33:25] You know, all of those kinds of terminologies. We spend a lot of time on saying, well, no, and actually what’s the right thing to [00:33:30] do? So we do more. We do.

Payman Langroudi: Have some banned.

Kunal Thakker: Words. Yeah. But almost like we’re actually [00:33:35] saying, well, these are the words you should be using as opposed. But I think having banned words list I think is really is. [00:33:40]

Payman Langroudi: Surgery the word surgery itself. Which surgery are they. It’s it’s.

Kunal Thakker: Incredibly.

Payman Langroudi: Invasive [00:33:45] treatment room or. Yeah.

Kunal Thakker: And you know and it’s so funny because so with our school we’re [00:33:50] doing a squat in Orpington at the moment. And we’re doing the Dawn labels on the door. And [00:33:55] you know, and we’ve always done we’ve always done surgery. Surgery one. Surgery surgery three. [00:34:00] And I haven’t actually gone to print because I can’t figure out what name I want for those those jaws. Um, [00:34:05] because I don’t want it to say surgery anymore.

Payman Langroudi: There’s so many studio ones.

Kunal Thakker: Yes, exactly. [00:34:10]

Payman Langroudi: People say treatment room. Yeah.

Kunal Thakker: Treatment room.

Payman Langroudi: Loads. Loads of different things I like.

Kunal Thakker: Treatment room. Yeah. [00:34:15] So? So. Yeah. And look, the whole thing as well. And I guess this, this conversation [00:34:20] says is we are not perfect and we are on a journey and we’re constantly looking at evaluating evolution. [00:34:25]

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Kunal Thakker: It’s an evolution for sure. It is. And the minute that you get complacent and say we’re doing everything perfectly, you [00:34:30] know, is the downfall. Um, and even when we design our clinics, my wife often says to me, when you [00:34:35] go to a Pizza Hut or Pizza Express, everyone’s literally the same. More or less, they’re all the same. And [00:34:40] I and Tooth Club isn’t. You go into our clinics, they are very different. And it’s because we are constantly [00:34:45] pushing the boundary and we learn the lessons from the last one. What worked in terms [00:34:50] of the patient flow? What didn’t work.

Payman Langroudi: And by the way, Pizza Express number 11 [00:34:55] might have been different to Pizza Express number three, but by the time they got to.

Kunal Thakker: I’ll bounce that back to her. [00:35:00]

Payman Langroudi: 400. They knew what they were doing and they were going to stick to this model. Maybe. Who knows? [00:35:05]

Kunal Thakker: Absolutely. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But. So. So let’s keep going. Let’s keep going. They’re greeted [00:35:10] at the door. Yeah, like I used to work in a practice where the boss was really into this idea of [00:35:15] you greet with their name before they say their name, because, you know, you know who’s coming in at 9:00. Yeah. You [00:35:20] say, Mr. Smith, welcome. Like this. All right. They sit down. You ask them [00:35:25] if they want a drink. Yeah. And? And she makes the drink. The same person.

Kunal Thakker: Yeah. [00:35:30] We have a beverage list. So when you come in, you know, you pass the menu over again. Systemised. So you’re not [00:35:35] relying on someone to say, do you want a tea or coffee? Uh, you know, here’s the list. Would you like a drink? [00:35:40] And then they’ll go off and make a drink. Bring the patient a drink in and bring it over.

Payman Langroudi: What’s on [00:35:45] the list?

Kunal Thakker: Is that so? Herbal teas, teas and coffees. Herbal drinks. And then? And then water tends [00:35:50] to be on the list.

Payman Langroudi: So, you know, I must have visited a good [00:35:55] thousand practices now, and I’m not on the road. I’m not. I’m not a guy. But, you know, we’ve been [00:36:00] 24 years doing this, right? Yeah. And what you said about the receptionist not [00:36:05] looking up, that happens a lot. Yeah. And I blame I blame [00:36:10] the the staff numbers on that some somehow. And you know, you’ve got you’ve [00:36:15] got the, the numbers in front of you. Obviously we can’t splash splash extra members of staff. But [00:36:20] for me you know as a disruptor. Yeah. You’ll you’ll, you’ll appreciate this. I find the number [00:36:25] of humans looking after the patients, I’d say, is [00:36:30] less than what I’d expect compared to other businesses where you walk into another business when you walk into a hotel.

Kunal Thakker: Right. [00:36:35] Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Humans everywhere there is restaurants.

Kunal Thakker: There’s the gym, for example, the gym reception [00:36:40] desk.

Payman Langroudi: So, so so that one. Yeah. But then interestingly, the coffee [00:36:45] I, I, you know, I’ve worked in practices where the practice [00:36:50] was brilliant, but the coffee was awful. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And vice versa. [00:36:55] Yeah. Yeah. And yet when they say, would you like if they say, would [00:37:00] you like a coffee? The moment I sip that coffee, if it’s great coffee, I start, I [00:37:05] start thinking all sorts of conclusions about this practice. Yeah. Things that are incorrect. [00:37:10] Even though I’ve, you know, I’ve been a dentist. I’ve worked in many practices. The coffee for me? Yeah. [00:37:15] Because I’m a whatever. Call me a coffee snob. Yeah. But it’s interesting. Like, where is [00:37:20] the patient going to draw their conclusions. Right. For you smell. You know, as soon as you walked in here, you said, [00:37:25] this smells funny. Like a lab. Yeah. Like, you know, um, often, [00:37:30] you know, like the the cobwebs, you know, that we miss on the ceilings, [00:37:35] you know, as you’re lying back.

Kunal Thakker: My thing is.

Payman Langroudi: Toilets. Toilets.

Kunal Thakker: My my thing is toilets. And, [00:37:40] you know, you you know. And in my practice, the one thing I can promise you in my practice is my toilets are immaculate [00:37:45] because I’m so they they, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got speakers in the toilets? Yeah.

Kunal Thakker: I should do, shouldn’t [00:37:50] I? I should just clean toilets, I think. Tell you a lot about clean, nice facilities, [00:37:55] right? Tell you anything about any business, right? You have the nicest restaurants. And if the toilets are, um, [00:38:00] not good, or, you know, if a business is going down, typically it starts because the toilet, you know, you see the detriment [00:38:05] of the toilets. Um, so, yeah, it is, it is about the small stuff and it is about the small stuff on that, [00:38:10] on that, on that journey, whether it’s the coffee, the cobwebs or, uh, or the toilets. [00:38:15] So I do think you do need to take care in the, in the detail. And I think the challenge, you [00:38:20] know, and I’m going through this journey. Right. Yeah. It comes with the scale. Right. Yeah. You know, you [00:38:25] start compromising a little bit. Let’s continue.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve got. Let’s try and get perfection then as far as you’re concerned. Yeah. The [00:38:30] guy has his coffee. Yeah. What happens next? Sorry. What happens next?

Kunal Thakker: So? [00:38:35] So we don’t get. So we’re very hot on our patient waiting times. So there’s no waiting. So it’s short. It’s [00:38:40] short. Absolutely it is. So either the nurse or the treatment coordinator will take [00:38:45] the patient in to meet the meet the dentist or the treatment coordinator have the consultation. So [00:38:50] we have consultation rooms which are quite comfortable for patients to talk through. Do not insist.

Payman Langroudi: On the dentist coming [00:38:55] out.

Kunal Thakker: No. Dentist. Dentist brings them back out. Dentist exits. Right? Yeah. [00:39:00] Nurse. Nurse welcomes.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Yeah. Is there a reason for that?

Kunal Thakker: It’s just [00:39:05] part of our patient workflow. We found that actually, with the nurse coming in, people felt a little [00:39:10] bit less nervous going into into the space. I also found that our [00:39:15] nurses were better communicators. Uh, to break the ice, because when you just met someone in the waiting [00:39:20] room, it can be a bit awkward. Whereas a nurse was far more able to break the ice [00:39:25] than the dentist was. See?

Payman Langroudi: I disagree with.

Kunal Thakker: You.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. As a dentist, the [00:39:30] dentist for me, the journey from the number one going into the waiting [00:39:35] room and and saying Mr.. Whatever. Mr.. Whatever stands up the way you greet Mr.. [00:39:40] Smith. Yeah. Other patients see that you’re treating someone with respect. That [00:39:45] first touch on the shoulder that I’m looking after you and then walking all the way from the waiting [00:39:50] room to the surgery. Talking about how was your day? What’s going on? Because [00:39:55] sometimes, once the patients in the surgery the how is your day question? [00:40:00] You. There is an element of worry in your head that the patient is thinking, you know, why is he asking [00:40:05] me about my day? Why does he talk about my teeth? And it’s not that’s not the case that it’s incorrect. But there’s something in your head telling [00:40:10] you that. Yeah. So for me, walking from the waiting room to the surgery. And I’d [00:40:15] like that walk to be a little bit of a walk. Yeah. Yeah. If I was going to design [00:40:20] the dream practice for me. Yeah, I’d like that to be a good, you know, 92nd [00:40:25] walk that in that 90s. You’re talking about life and and [00:40:30] how are you and holidays and you’re starting something that sets the tone.

Payman Langroudi: Whereas [00:40:35] when I, when I used to have the nurse bring the patient in already, she [00:40:40] set a tone. Right. But I can’t 100% rely on but but also patient walks [00:40:45] in. Now I’m at the chair. He’s going to sit down. Once he sat down. It’s time. We’re now we’re talking side to side. [00:40:50] Yeah. You know, there’s no. Of course I. Let me give you one piece of advice, [00:40:55] dude. I mean, you know this, but more important than the [00:41:00] smell, the TV on the ceiling. Yeah. The smile on the receptionist. More [00:41:05] important than all of those things is painless injections. Yeah. Painless injections [00:41:10] are the most important thing that can happen in a dental practice. I’d say if I had a choice [00:41:15] between a guy who’d done a masters in prosthodontics at the Eastman [00:41:20] and a guy who hadn’t but knew exactly how to give completely painless injections, I’d [00:41:25] pick that that guy as a as a business builder. Yeah, yeah. Because because [00:41:30] give the injection and then. Okay, the ice then then talk for for ten minutes.

Kunal Thakker: Yeah. And [00:41:35] look, I have to disagree because I don’t come from a clinician point of view. Right. From a patient perspective, [00:41:40] it’s all about how you make me feel. Yeah. Right. I can have a painful injection in [00:41:45] anaesthetic or whatever. Right. Yeah. If you make me feel safe. And if you’ve made me feel. [00:41:50] It’s all about the feeling. It’s how someone made you feel. How was the experience? If I’ve had a nice experience [00:41:55] in the waiting room, I’ve had my drinks. Someone’s asked me about my holiday or, you know, and it’s also picking [00:42:00] up on the clues, the non the non-verbal clues. Because sometimes you get patients, they don’t want to talk. Yeah. You come [00:42:05] in. Yeah. In the like in the barbers I don’t want to talk. I don’t want to talk to you as fast as possible. [00:42:10] Yeah I want to be as fast as possible. Get me out of here. And so you have to adapt it to different patients. But it’s picking up [00:42:15] on those clues that someone is nervous. And so you kind of have some intro cues into it. And you have to judge [00:42:20] whether someone wants to talk or not. So you have to be very emotionally connected. But I do think that [00:42:25] for me, it’s about how people are made to feel, and we’re not. Every part of a patient journey is not going to be perfect. As you said, some [00:42:30] people are going to like the coffee, some people aren’t going to like the coffee, but it’s about how is that overall overarching experience? [00:42:35] Did I feel safe? Did I feel comfortable coming into this environment? And was I was I approached [00:42:40] with care. And I think that feeling, which is so intangible is what really makes [00:42:45] makes the difference. Um, and then giving people an amazing smile. You know, I think it’s important if you’re going to [00:42:50] give someone and they’re in absolute agony whilst sitting in your chair, never going to end well. Um, but I do think it’s [00:42:55] about the overall journey and the overall. So let’s talk.

Payman Langroudi: About the journey. Once they get into the treatment room, is there? What part of that [00:43:00] do you prescribe?

Kunal Thakker: So actually we. So this is where we do give the clinicians a freedom. So we do what [00:43:05] we’ve asked the clinicians to do. And what we’ve trained the clinicians to do is give people space to talk and [00:43:10] stop and listen. Right. So it’s about because there’s also [00:43:15] we had we had an example. So there was one situation where I said you should ask, so why are you here today. [00:43:20] And the patient and we had one example where the patient said, well, you should know why I’m here today. [00:43:25] You’ve got an appointment book. You should know why I’m here today. And actually, that wasn’t [00:43:30] the that wasn’t the right thing. So, you know, we kind of changed it up a bit and we said, actually, we’re [00:43:35] not going to script this for you, but what you’re going to do is you’re going to intro yourself to the patient and [00:43:40] then you’re going to you’re going to stop when the patient is talking, you’re going to stop and listen, and [00:43:45] then you’re going to repeat back and check what you’ve heard is correct. That’s the only part that we actually prescribe [00:43:50] in surgery for our clinical team. That’s it. That’s it. Nothing else. And [00:43:55] the exit, the exit, you walk the patient out to where the treatment coordinator. [00:44:00] And if they’re busy out to reception but nothing else.

Payman Langroudi: Not no, no. No photography. [00:44:05] No. Uh, not.

Kunal Thakker: At this stage standing. Not the. No, [00:44:10] no.

Payman Langroudi: So then. But then don’t you think, dude? Yeah. The the [00:44:15] the.

Kunal Thakker: Scanning and photography doesn’t impact a patient. It impacts you and your portfolio and your marketing. [00:44:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but the dental, the dental journey. [00:44:25] Right? Yeah. For I mean, I appreciate the peace [00:44:30] in the waiting room. I do appreciate the peace of the waiting room. Yeah. The you know, I’ve been some [00:44:35] bloody beautiful waiting rooms, but yeah, there are some waiting rooms that are just marvellous. Yeah, yeah, but they’re. [00:44:40]

Kunal Thakker: Not great either. I have to be honest with you. Waiting rooms are really because I’m quite passionate about this. When you’ve got a [00:44:45] super high end waiting room and and anyone listening to this podcast do not think my my waiting [00:44:50] rooms are super high end. They’re not. When you’ve got a really posh waiting room that [00:44:55] looks like it’s really expensive and high end. Yeah, people don’t find that accessible. People don’t [00:45:00] find it welcoming. It depends.

Payman Langroudi: It depends who your target audience is.

Kunal Thakker: Absolutely. But when you’re looking to scale a business [00:45:05] and you’re looking actually you do want a you know, for us it’s all about it’s a balance between volume and quality. [00:45:10] Right. Yeah. And that’s really important. So if you want volume and quality, but if you just want the super high end patients [00:45:15] right. Yeah. Look there’s some beautiful, beautiful clinics. But I’ve seen squats that have opened that have been unsuccessful. [00:45:20] And the reason why is because they look really expensive when you walk in. Right. Yeah. You [00:45:25] know, when you walk in and you’ve got like, I don’t know, Italian marble floors.

Payman Langroudi: How do you know that was the reason why they failed? [00:45:30] I mean, maybe, maybe, maybe they didn’t have like a financial know how. They [00:45:35] spent too much money on the marble, you know.

Kunal Thakker: You know.

Payman Langroudi: I guess there’s lots of different reasons.

Kunal Thakker: Why. Yeah. [00:45:40] There is. Absolutely. Absolutely there is. I get at least one social media message [00:45:45] a week of people asking me, saying I’ve set up a squat or I’ve got a practice that I bought that isn’t working. Can [00:45:50] you help me? And I will always help, by the way. Always. There’s never a time where I’ll turn down someone that asks for help. [00:45:55] Yeah, never too busy.

Payman Langroudi: Because you have to ask all those questions yourself.

Kunal Thakker: Yeah, exactly. But, you know. But [00:46:00] also, it’s a good deed, you know, and it’s about collaboration. You know, if you succeed and your practices in Manchester, [00:46:05] the last one was in Manchester, what impact is that going to have on my life? Nothing but positive because actually I have an ally [00:46:10] that’s in Manchester and someone one day, you know, I might need my teeth done my own dental practices and they’ll [00:46:15] help me out, you know, whatever it is, good karma. But, you know, so I get approached quite a lot and I [00:46:20] have a look at these things and, you know, people, you know, people are talking, oh, it takes three years to break even on [00:46:25] a squat practice. It takes us six months maximum, probably three months, six months. [00:46:30] And that’s not out of arrogance. That’s not out of anything. But there’s something in our model that works. And when I compare and [00:46:35] I can only look at what I know versus what other people are doing, and I look at these very where we’ve spent [00:46:40] so much money on expensive waiting rooms. And what you’ve done is you’ve built this [00:46:45] beautiful practice because you think it’s important to you, but you’ve not listened to your patient. What is important to your patient? [00:46:50] And you know, you want someone to come into your practice and make sure that they really [00:46:55] feel welcome.

Kunal Thakker: They feel it’s accessible, that they really like it. And I don’t mandate scanning. I’ve been told [00:47:00] loads of times, oh, you know, you scan every patient and then tell them they need whitening and tell them they need x, y, z or increase [00:47:05] your EBITDA. Like, no, it from what you’ve done is you’ve complicated [00:47:10] your patient journey. You’re right. Yeah. They’re now sitting in their chair for an extra ten minutes being scanned. And then they’re [00:47:15] being preached to no understand the patient. What is it they want? And if they need a scan, [00:47:20] absolutely. You talk to them about why they need a scan. But I really have tried to centralise this. And [00:47:25] I think, what’s the difference between you and I? And I love talking to you because I think you’ve challenged me today and that [00:47:30] I’m going to go back and take in my own business. But because you’re a clinician, [00:47:35] right? Yeah. I think innately there’s a you can get biased to the clinical side, [00:47:40] whereas my weakness is I’m not a clinician, but then I will go very patient centric.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, when I [00:47:45] say brilliant waiting rooms, I didn’t mean the furniture. Oh, did you not? I meant the whole the whole thing.

Kunal Thakker: The whole [00:47:50] thing. The whole.

Payman Langroudi: Thing. Um, my point is this my point is that the waiting room part [00:47:55] of it is about 20% of the treatment. The treatment part of it can be very, [00:48:00] very, very different depending on who the dentist is and what the dentist does. Yeah. [00:48:05] So what I’m saying is this experience that that maybe you think people are getting at Tooth [00:48:10] Club is completely different in one room compared to the room next door, let alone [00:48:15] in one practice compared to the practice. Based on what? That dentist’s protocols. [00:48:20] Yeah. And what’s this dentist. Now, obviously dentists don’t like being told what to do. Yeah, [00:48:25] I get that 100%. Get that. Yeah. But I was just interested in equally, I’m.

Kunal Thakker: Not qualified to tell a [00:48:30] dentist or.

Payman Langroudi: A clinical director. Right? Yes.

Kunal Thakker: We have. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So. But, you know, again, you hire [00:48:35] you? I hire on culture and values. I hire people that are, you know, ingrained [00:48:40] to do the right thing.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not even saying this is the right move, but I would have thought that someone like you [00:48:45] would have thought that it’s the right move to say, look, every patient gets a photo at the beginning or [00:48:50] whatever it is. Are there like that.

Kunal Thakker: Sort of thing? Yeah. No, because and because I don’t think it’s [00:48:55] the right I don’t think it’s the I don’t think it’s the right thing. And to even.

Payman Langroudi: Control that, to.

Kunal Thakker: That, to control that. [00:49:00] Because, you know, when you talk, you know, we have all the gadgets, we have the SLRs and things for people to do if they [00:49:05] if they want to do it. And, and there’s a certain there’s a certain way in which we still get the photos for our social media, etcetera. [00:49:10] Um, but it is about, you know, I need to give my dentist the space [00:49:15] to connect with the patient. And if I don’t do that, that’s the number one. Yeah. There’s a disservice [00:49:20] to the patient and to our patient journey. Um, and that’s where when I say 85%, [00:49:25] you know, why are we not at 100% right? You know, that’s my one of my biggest challenges is like, why are we not 100%? [00:49:30] And it comes down to people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it comes down to, you know, has the receptionist [00:49:35] had a barney with her husband at home before leaving or leaving for work? You [00:49:40] know, uh, is it that the dentist is stressed because they’ve had a complaint? Um, and [00:49:45] they need to reply back to their indemnity. All of these things do factor, do factor in. Um, but we, [00:49:50] you know, but I do want to give the dentist some space, particularly in, in surgery when they’re doing [00:49:55] their operating. Um, they need they need the space to do that the best that they [00:50:00] know how. Um, but the entire journey up until that they’re into their chair, they’re [00:50:05] going to make them feel good. And then the exit of when they come out is also going to be a really, really positive [00:50:10] and long lasting one. And then above this, you know, we you know, my clinical director works very closely [00:50:15] with all our dentists to make sure that the dentistry we’re doing is of exceptional standard so that we do have [00:50:20] that, well, smile. So when people do, if they’re having composite bonding done or their Invisalign treatment, that [00:50:25] they get that really nice smile at the end of it.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s let’s talk [00:50:30] about how you actually. What’s the org structure [00:50:35] like? The org chart. Org chart. How does it work. Is there a manager at each [00:50:40] site. Yeah. And are there area managers. How much is centralised.

Kunal Thakker: Yeah. Really [00:50:45] good question. All of that stuff. So our clinics have um because I’m not a dentist, I’m [00:50:50] actually more anxious about the clinical side, um, than you’d think. You know, I’ve, you [00:50:55] know, because I worry. About what, I don’t know. Yeah. Um, so each site has a practice manager [00:51:00] and also has a clinical lead. So we have a principal dentist in each in each [00:51:05] site. Um, and then.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a hierarchy between those two?

Kunal Thakker: Um, there’s [00:51:10] one.

Payman Langroudi: Above the other.

Kunal Thakker: No. Because what we try and do is there’s a real collaborative work style between the two. And, [00:51:15] uh, we, we do these leadership empowerment workshops where we bring them specifically [00:51:20] together and make them work together so that they’re working collaboratively. But essentially, [00:51:25] the practice manager will report into our ops director, and then the clinical lead will report [00:51:30] into our clinical director. So again, the culture of the business is to be about [00:51:35] fun, friendly, collaboratively. It’s a core part of our culture. So you don’t do that, but you do get [00:51:40] people coming at things at different sides from from different angles. And then that’s where, you know, the practice manager [00:51:45] will be, look, this is my stock budget, the clinical lead will we need this stuff, right. You know, you do you you [00:51:50] obviously get that and we help them work together on it and we help them find their way [00:51:55] to to it. And whether that’s if we increase the stock, the clinical.

Payman Langroudi: Leaders, just like the the lead associate. [00:52:00]

Kunal Thakker: Lead associate.

Payman Langroudi: You kind of pay him for that. Yes. So being a.

Kunal Thakker: Lead. Yeah. So we have a very clear pay [00:52:05] structure amongst our clinicians. Every clinician is paid the same. The clinical lead is paid an extra part percent, [00:52:10] an extra percentage, um a higher percentage, so that they can take that principal role [00:52:15] on. And they, they meet my clinical director every week. Um, and just on teams [00:52:20] have a, have a, have an hour on teams every week just to escalate any issues.

Payman Langroudi: Do they all meet together [00:52:25] or one at a time.

Kunal Thakker: And so they all meet together. And then Cepi, our clinical director will do one on ones as well. [00:52:30] And then they and then they can call us if there’s anything specific.

Payman Langroudi: Is your clinical director still clinical? [00:52:35]

Kunal Thakker: Yes. So she is. So she’s actually clinical four days at the moment. She’s clinical director one. And she’s now changing [00:52:40] to being clinical director two days a week and will be in surgery three days. So, um, yeah, because the [00:52:45] demands of the role are kind of kind of changing. Um, but the idea is we make the practices independent. They shouldn’t [00:52:50] need Cepi, they shouldn’t need our ops director. What are we not giving them? What tools are we not giving them to [00:52:55] be able to be self-sufficient and, you know, and if it’s an extra couple hundred pounds worth of stock, we’re not going to sweat the small [00:53:00] stuff. Give it to them, you know, make their life easy. Um, so but there is we’re a very close [00:53:05] because we’re still small. I still think we’re quite small at 12 practices. There’s still a small community of us. [00:53:10] And I want to keep that, that as long as I can keep that. So we’re really, really connected. Um, [00:53:15] and that’s how that works. So that’s the structure in practice. Um, outside of that. [00:53:20] So in the UK, I’ve made the decision that it’s going to be just my exec team that are here. So that [00:53:25] includes myself, my CFO include my COO, [00:53:30] and I’ve got a chief commercial officer as well that’s focussed purely on profitability [00:53:35] and setting up new sites.

Kunal Thakker: And then I’ve got our clinical director, and then I’ve got [00:53:40] someone that just runs a strategy and PR for me. So, and covers marketing. [00:53:45] So those are my six people in the UK. And then the rest of my head office are out in India. So I’ve [00:53:50] got an amazing support team. So compliance. So we’ve got four dentists that work [00:53:55] in India. They do all of our audits. They do all of the compliance checks, virtual compliance, walkthrough walkthroughs, [00:54:00] floor walks. Um, and then we’ve got a big finance team in India as well HR. [00:54:05] Everything is done predominantly in India. So and I think for [00:54:10] us from a cost based perspective, it’s made a lot of sense, but also talent. Um, we’ve got [00:54:15] a huge amount of talent out in India. Um, and a huge amount of loyalty, um, out [00:54:20] there that people that are worth investing in, in training because they’re in it for the long run, not just for the [00:54:25] a short, short phase. So that’s our team in India. And then all of our phones, our [00:54:30] debt collection and our outbound recalling of patients happens in South Africa.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, half our phones [00:54:35] are in South Africa. Are they? Whereabouts? The time zones. Right. Isn’t it? Yeah.

Kunal Thakker: It’s a great time zone.

Payman Langroudi: They work from home. [00:54:40]

Kunal Thakker: Okay. We ours are in Johannesburg, so we’ve got an office in Rivonia. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Tell me about the process [00:54:45] of finding all these people in India. Was that a painful process or was that relatively straightforward?

Kunal Thakker: So I actually [00:54:50] set up a big. I set up Goldman Sachs team in Bangalore in India. So which at the time [00:54:55] when I left it was about 300 people. I think it’s about 1000 people today. Um, so I [00:55:00] actually set up their offices out there.

Payman Langroudi: So were you out there the whole time?

Kunal Thakker: So. So I spent a lot of time out there early [00:55:05] on in my career and moving functions out there, so I kind of learned it. I knew the area really well. So when I [00:55:10] looked at my own business, I just found that the we got to a stage where I couldn’t afford [00:55:15] to have the infrastructure that I wanted my business to have and the practices to support, [00:55:20] to have, because also practice managers, we don’t want our practice managers stuck inside an office doing paperwork. So [00:55:25] we’re a support centre, so we need to say what we are focussed on is how do we get them out of the office doing [00:55:30] less admin, doing more patient walkthroughs, training, supervision, that kind of thing. So [00:55:35] um, so yeah, so we so I recruited originally I had them all working from home in India. Um, [00:55:40] traffic in Bangalore is a nightmare, but we’re just about to start putting an office in because we’ve just got to a scale [00:55:45] where we need to get some sort of hybrid working, going. Um, so it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Not like a, it’s not a third [00:55:50] party company that.

Kunal Thakker: We had the choice of outsourcing or having my own people. Uh, and I chose [00:55:55] to have my own people. And the reason why was culture. I wanted people that were aligned to our culture and our vision, [00:56:00] uh, and I wanted them part of the club. So we’re setting up Tooth Club India Private Limited at the moment. [00:56:05] Um, and they’re all going to become employees currently. They’re self-employed, but they’ll all become [00:56:10] employees of my company.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s very interesting, man. That’s very interesting. So [00:56:15] that that side. Is there someone over here looking. Is that you looking after that side? [00:56:20]

Kunal Thakker: So actually, um, so we’ve got an operations manager in India who is brilliant, who’s [00:56:25] actually running a lot of it for me now. But how many how many people in India. So we’ve got 26. [00:56:30]

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Kunal Thakker: 26 people in India. And Rebecca, who is my head of strategy, [00:56:35] um, kind of oversees it. But the idea with it is, is it’s with Rebecca [00:56:40] until we can, um, move it off and be fully independent. The idea is the India team [00:56:45] will be their own function. The manager out there, the ops manager out there is [00:56:50] going to run it, and he’s doing it already, to be honest. He’s great. Um, and he’s been an absolute [00:56:55] fantastic hire. Um, the reason we’ve still kept very close connectivity is because we’re moving more and more functions [00:57:00] out there. You know, we thought we were going to just have finance out there. Then marketing was doing an amazing [00:57:05] job out there. So we put a lot of all of our let’s say if you Instagram us, um, between 6 [00:57:10] a.m. and 10 p.m. at night, you’ll get a response within 15 minutes. So all of that is out there and they’re doing a [00:57:15] really, really good job. So we feel like we’ve kind of taken them from what we thought would just be basic functions to [00:57:20] quite complex functions. So so it’s kind of managed from a strategy perspective [00:57:25] here. But the idea is, is they will be self-sufficient. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then take me through [00:57:30] the process of two two key things really the setting up of a squat [00:57:35] practice. And just just from the nitty gritty, the building, do you have like a team that is doing [00:57:40] that the whole time? Yeah. Is that is it your own team? You know that part of it the finding the shop [00:57:45] that and then the other one. I mean you cannot do squat practices without a [00:57:50] brilliant marketing. Yeah. You know team right. Is that in-house or is [00:57:55] that outsourced fully in-house in-house.

Kunal Thakker: So let me take you through a squat journey and then I’ll talk to you a little bit about marketing. [00:58:00] So the squat journey. Um, so I will sign off on every site. Um, and I’ll tell you why. [00:58:05] Because we have a system and process in place for identifying our sites. But I sign [00:58:10] off on gut feel, um, unscientific, but it is, it’s, um, gut feel. [00:58:15] Um, and so I will always sign off on the site. So, um, my chief commercial [00:58:20] officer, Tracy, will be on site. She’ll go and look at lots of different locations, fill out the [00:58:25] the various elements of our kind of analysis that we do. And then I’ll go and see and say, yeah, this is [00:58:30] this is the site, this is the place we want to be. Um, based on a lot on on gut. Um, [00:58:35] so that does happen. Um, and in terms of locations and things, we want to make sure we’ve got [00:58:40] the operational scalability. I don’t want to just set up in the middle of Manchester and not have a operations team that can run [00:58:45] that. So we’re being really careful about locations and how we how we grow and how we manage [00:58:50] that growth. Um, but from a squat site, funding is really, really important. Um, you know, banks, [00:58:55] some banks will lend, but most banks won’t lend on a squat site. So it will either be out of our cash [00:59:00] flow or we’ll use secondary lenders. So half of it is. So typically a squat site costs [00:59:05] us about 300,000 350,000. That includes the cash flow you need for [00:59:10] the first three months once you’ve opened.

Payman Langroudi: That’s pretty good, right? For how many surgeries would that be? [00:59:15] So.

Kunal Thakker: So typically our sites are about 1500ft². Yeah. A unit [00:59:20] that normally gets us in about 5 or 6 surgeries. Good sized surgeries. Um, so [00:59:25] we will then, um, kit out three. But plumbed all of them will be ready plumbed. [00:59:30] So it’s just plug and play as you, as you grow. Um, we, uh, so [00:59:35] half of this, about 150,000 is spent on asset finance. Your computers, your stereo scanners, your [00:59:40] equipment, that kind of stuff. And then the other 150,000 is more on soft furnishing refurb costs. [00:59:45] Um, I’ve got to the stage now where I’m quite lucky. Pretty good, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: That’s pretty good going. Yeah, the [00:59:50] way they look. Yeah, that is pretty good going.

Kunal Thakker: They are. And I’ve got a good team, you know, and we don’t [00:59:55] go, you know, the way that I’ve done it again, because I’m not a clinician I won’t go for the super spec high high end chair. But [01:00:00] I will go for a good good mid-range chair. The reason being is the minute that you go for a cheap [01:00:05] China chair or something like that, it’s going to break. You’re going to have downtime impacts your patient journey. It’s a nightmare. [01:00:10] So we go, you know, so we go and we use reputable equipment. And I think I’ve been really lucky with my [01:00:15] squats because I’ve now formed a team around me who are incredible. It’s just plug and play. [01:00:20] Everyone knows their job. Um, so our equipment is all typically done by Clark Dental, [01:00:25] and they’ve actually trained my builder, who is a retail shop fitter, on how to build a dental practice. [01:00:30] Um, and because they’ve done it a couple of times, I mean, they don’t even need to supervise anymore, but they’ve got that close [01:00:35] relationship amongst themselves if there’s a problem in a particular site. They’re quite creative in how they’re going to do [01:00:40] it. It’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Same builder every.

Kunal Thakker: Time, same build every time, same same equipment company every single time, same [01:00:45] IT company that are going to do all the the, the IT install um the cabling, same [01:00:50] cabling guy that’s going to run all the cables. Same fire guy that’s going to do all the fire alarms. Same building controller that’s [01:00:55] going to sign it off. And um, and they’ve just found their way of working. So that’s allowed us to scale. So typically [01:01:00] for the minute I get the keys to the minute that I open is about 14 weeks. Wow. [01:01:05] Yeah. Ideally 12. Um, it’s 14 because the CQC, uh, get a [01:01:10] slightly.

Payman Langroudi: Sick.

Kunal Thakker: Man. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That is quick. Yeah.

Kunal Thakker: And it’s literally from floor [01:01:15] plans, from the minute that the lease is being negotiated with all the floor plans are agreed, all the timelines are [01:01:20] agreed, costs, quotes, everything is done. And you just you just go. You must have looked.

Payman Langroudi: At your [01:01:25] KPIs, right? And seen like, where are the patients coming from? Yeah. And and [01:01:30] I know you said, you know, I know it’s almost one of the sort of cornerstones of the brand is High Street. Yeah. [01:01:35] But is there any scope for if your marketing is good for having [01:01:40] an off high street? I mean, I’m seeing it happen more with these sort of blank canvas. [01:01:45] Yeah. Uh, dental practices. Yeah. You know, it’s just it’s like a warehouse. [01:01:50] Yeah. And. But inside, you can do whatever you like. Right.

Kunal Thakker: There’s a big, well-known one in Liverpool, [01:01:55] which I think has done very, very, very well. Um, you know, it doesn’t it’s not [01:02:00] it’s not stay true to our model because what I felt is because what we’re trying to do with our marketing [01:02:05] spend is. So you ramp up the marketing when you’re about to open, and you keep that going for about [01:02:10] the first six months. The idea is after six months is to for that marketing spend to go down and. [01:02:15] Do you think.

Payman Langroudi: Visibility is important?

Kunal Thakker: Visibility is important. Word of mouth is important. Being accessible [01:02:20] is really, really important. So look, I mean this this one that I’m talking about in Liverpool I think is a hugely successful [01:02:25] model. So they’ve obviously it’s very accessible by the way.

Payman Langroudi: There’s loads of massive car parks.

Kunal Thakker: Car park. You know it’s [01:02:30] great. Whereas what I find in ours is we’re able to reduce the marketing spend because you’ve still got the footfall, [01:02:35] presence, you’ve got the word of mouth happening. And don’t get me wrong, we’re still doing the SEO and the Google ads and, um, [01:02:40] the Facebook social media stuff, but we’re doing it on a smaller scale than we are in the first six months. [01:02:45] Um, and, and that serves us, serves us really well. I also feel like I want our dental practices [01:02:50] to be really part of the community. Yeah. So when people are going out for their coffee or they’re walking their dog, [01:02:55] you know, they can pop in and book their dental appointment. So being part of the community and that community feel part of it in dentistry [01:03:00] is really, really important. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And of the squats that you’ve done, have you have you had any of them [01:03:05] go from 3 to 6 surgeries?

Kunal Thakker: Yeah. Yeah. I mean I’ve got one in Ipswich, which [01:03:10] has gone from three surgeries to nine surgeries. Wow. Yeah. The original. [01:03:15]

Payman Langroudi: One. The first one.

Kunal Thakker: The first one is nine. And honestly, you know, we’re open seven days a week there. [01:03:20] We do three late nights, 8 to 8. Huh? I know. Three.

Payman Langroudi: Three times. Yeah.

Kunal Thakker: Three times a week. They’re open [01:03:25] 8 to 8. Yeah. Um, and then, you know, we’re open Saturday. Sunday. And, you [01:03:30] know, we are about to put in surgery ten and 11 in there. So [01:03:35] there is a. Wow. Yeah. So it’s, um, you know, so it’s a it’s a big one. It’s a, it’s a, it’s [01:03:40] a big beast. But it comes with it’s again, it comes with its challenges as well. Because you know I feel [01:03:45] for the practice manager there. She’s brilliant right. She’s absolutely brilliant. But the number of people that are walking in and out of that practice [01:03:50] every single day is, is massive. Not just just the general footfall of the staff, but when you’ve got [01:03:55] a practice where you’ve got almost 30, 40 people working there, it has its own own challenges and operating [01:04:00] challenges and recruitment. So yeah. So yeah we do.

Payman Langroudi: How did the first one end up being in Ipswich? [01:04:05]

Kunal Thakker: Do you know? Potluck. If I’m honest there was no science behind it. If I’m being really honest. Right. Yeah. [01:04:10] Um, actually, I was, um. I just sold my last group. I was looking, um, [01:04:15] as to where to go. Um, someone had approached me saying, oh, I’ve got an NHS contract. Do you want to buy [01:04:20] it? Um, and most of us are private, by the way. I’ve only got two in my group NHS. This is one of [01:04:25] them. And I said, yeah, and I kind of got the NHS costs an NHS contract at a bargain price. [01:04:30] Um, and then Covid hit, but construction was open, so we kept on building, um, you [01:04:35] know, and as soon as the lockdown was over, dental practices could open. So we actually opened [01:04:40] the opened the practice. Um, so that’s how, uh, Ipswich [01:04:45] happened. It really was I think, you know, there is I say luck. There’s. Are you a London.

Payman Langroudi: Based at the time?

Kunal Thakker: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:04:50] I didn’t feel it was a trek. It’s a long way away.

Kunal Thakker: It was a trek. It was a trek. But, you know, again, I’d done the analysis. [01:04:55] It got a gut feel. You know, there was a shortage of dentistry. People were people were not good at recruitment.

Payman Langroudi: Because [01:05:00] it’s a trick.

Kunal Thakker: Yeah, because it’s a trek. Exactly who? You know who. What? You know what? Dentist wants to graduate and [01:05:05] go to Suffolk in a retirement town and work. Um, but but there’s also a lot of money there. [01:05:10] The demographics, the retirement town, because Ipswich is kind of seen as kind of being quite chavvy, but [01:05:15] actually there’s a huge retirement town and people that are really affluent that want to live there. Um, [01:05:20] so I saw an opportunity. I really did see an opportunity. And I saw the struggle. There was recruitment, and [01:05:25] I felt like I’ve never struggled with recruitment. Never really struggled with recruitment. So why is it so hard? I think I could recruit [01:05:30] here. I just need to to make it, to make it right. So what I did is I got a house in Ipswich [01:05:35] and I used to house dentists there. So even if you lived in London, you could come and live in my house [01:05:40] in Ipswich for 3 or 4 days and, and do it. And what ended up [01:05:45] happening is I housed these dentists and they’d set up their life in Ipswich. So one got [01:05:50] engaged, had a child, child went to school, end up staying, you know. Right. Yeah. The child’s just gone to school. [01:05:55] So it has ended up staying there and set up their life in in Ipswich. And that’s. And then we don’t even know we don’t [01:06:00] have this house anymore. But you know, we will provide temporary accommodation to people if they want it.

Kunal Thakker: Um, but that [01:06:05] meant that that it worked. And what we tried and I think early in the days, I can’t really it’s [01:06:10] harder now trying to do this. But in the early days, you know, we spent a lot of time with our dentists. So, you know, if they were [01:06:15] relocating, we’d help them find the house. We’d help them settle in. Um, also, partners are really [01:06:20] important, as you probably all know, right? Yeah. You know, if the wife’s not happy, there’s no way I’m happy. So, you know, making sure [01:06:25] that the partners were happy. So that’s how how how Ipswich happened. And we just set up our squad in January. In [01:06:30] January, our second one in Suffolk, in Bury St Edmunds. Hugely hugely [01:06:35] successful. And I’d go to say it’s going to be our most successful squat we’ve ever done. Um, it’s that busy. [01:06:40] Um, and it’s just and but now we’ve got the conviction and we can tell the story like, I’m happy [01:06:45] to pay a dentist a salary, right? Yeah. Fixed salary. Go there and work. Because I know [01:06:50] we’ve got proof in the in the pudding. But typically dentists see that there’s such a good earning potential in some of these [01:06:55] outskirts area areas such as Ipswich and Suffolk. And they’re only an hour or an hour and ten minutes out [01:07:00] on the train. And it’s not like it’s Devon or Cumbria or somewhere that’s going to take him five hours to travel to. [01:07:05]

Kunal Thakker: So that’s the so that’s the side. That’s the side. So then the squat. So back to the squat journey. [01:07:10] Um so yeah. So once we’ve got so once we’ve got the side, we’ve really got a good team that will go [01:07:15] in and build the plans. The architecture plans are really important. That patient journey experience is really important. [01:07:20] Um, the design element as well. I’ve got someone that works with me on knows what I like. Um, and, [01:07:25] you know, we’re always looking to up the design element to make it more Instagrammable, make the next practice [01:07:30] even better than the last. So there’s, there’s, there’s that that goes on. Um, and then kind of, you [01:07:35] know, 2 or 3 weeks before all the Google adverts have gone live, um, you know, our shop [01:07:40] fronts because they’re highly visible. Uh, as soon as we start building, we put these horrible bright pink [01:07:45] posters illuminous pink, but it stops and makes people look got QR codes. [01:07:50] So we typically I mean, we started booking in Orpington, which is opening in a couple of weeks. Um, you know Orpington, [01:07:55] their first patient was booked in about two months ago. So, you know, we started booking very, [01:08:00] very early on in terms of patience. But then we really ramp up in the last 2 or 3 weeks in terms of [01:08:05] what’s the what’s.

Payman Langroudi: The what’s the message that’s on that pink poster. Is it like something different? Like what? Do you [01:08:10] know.

Kunal Thakker: All.

Payman Langroudi: The QR code. What does it take? Is it just a form fill?

Kunal Thakker: So no, it literally takes you through the [01:08:15] Dental bookings page. Right? Online booking. Book your appointment. Um, it also gives you an option of WhatsApp [01:08:20] if you want to contact us and have a real live conversation with us. Or you can call us. So. But the [01:08:25] posters are bold and ugly. It’s literally calling out all the different treatments we do. Um, you know [01:08:30] our plan. Um, we love our plan. Join the club. Um, and, you know, the [01:08:35] subscription model. We really, really believe we’ve got a big plan patient in our practices. And that’s a real [01:08:40] core part of our bit. But we keep our plan relatively low. It’s 13.95 [01:08:45] a month, two Check-ups, two Hygiene’s a year. And that seems to provide people [01:08:50] accessibility into into dentistry. Now do we make a huge margin on that. No we don’t, but [01:08:55] what it does, it brings loyal patients into our practices. And when they need treatment, We believe [01:09:00] that’s where we’ll make the margin. Uh, margin. Or if they’ve got a toothache, that’s when I think it will be profitable. So [01:09:05] the plan is a big part of that. But it’s not. It’s just it’s making people stop and look. Oh, there’s a dental practice. [01:09:10] Oh, I’ve not been to the dentist in a while. Let me check this out. And then, because it looks fancy, um, you [01:09:15] know, people want to kind of be part of it. People want to go into somewhere where they feel good. Um, so people try us out. [01:09:20] And that’s why it’s really important for us, is we we recruit the staff early on. We train them [01:09:25] because you’ve only got one chance to make a good impression. And in these communities, [01:09:30] because I said we want it to be about the community. People talk. People talk on little Facebook groups. You know.

Payman Langroudi: News [01:09:35] travels faster than it does.

Kunal Thakker: Good and bad, good and bad. Absolutely. So it’s really [01:09:40] important that we do that early on.

Payman Langroudi: And do you recruit specifically, um, the team [01:09:45] for those squads? Do you on purpose go outside of dentistry or do you stay in dentistry?

Kunal Thakker: So [01:09:50] we’ve actually got a team of our own people that we’ll put that will go and do the first couple of weeks in a squad practice [01:09:55] to help us get open and get people trained up on the job around the service levels. But [01:10:00] when we’re recruiting, typically our treatment coordinators are non Dental. They do not [01:10:05] come from a Dental background. They tend to come from hospitality, retail, very people [01:10:10] orientated type type professions. Our nurses are tend to be Dental [01:10:15] Dental nurses from other practices. Yeah. Other practices that have moved on. So, so [01:10:20] uh, and then dentists and dentist. But the reception teams uh treatment coordinator typically non dental [01:10:25] backgrounds practice manager. Uh Dental. Ideally ideally dental. Yes. Yeah. [01:10:30] Because you do need that supervision of non dental staff to have a dental background. And it works [01:10:35] really well because if you’ve got treatment coordinator that has got the sales hospitality people type experience, [01:10:40] but then they’ve got a dental experience person kind of drumming the healthcare drum. [01:10:45] I think it’s a really nice balance to have. Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:10:50] you know, you’re running it pretty professionally right. It’s to, [01:10:55] to get to this scale in this time. From a non dentist point of view [01:11:00] it’s quite quite you’re doing it professional job. I’m sure you’re looking at the certain KPIs you look at. And I’ve [01:11:05] always in my business got a big problem with too many. Yeah. Yeah. Like I’ve [01:11:10] got one number I’m interested in and it’s for me it’s a specific number. [01:11:15] It’s it’s the number of enlightened treatments done per dentist per week. Right. [01:11:20] It’s not it’s not the overall number. It’s the is it. Is each dentist doing more today than he was doing [01:11:25] yesterday? And for me that’s really important. Yeah. Thing. Um, firstly, [01:11:30] have you got KPIs? That is the key one different. Is it unexpected? [01:11:35] And the second thing is, you know, much of what you’re talking about is experience. Yeah. And experience [01:11:40] one of those things you can’t really measure very well. Yeah I guess reviews or. Yeah.

Kunal Thakker: Well [01:11:45] it’s a it’s an interesting it’s a KPI. Yeah. We are we’re a hugely commercial [01:11:50] business and I take. No, um, I make no apology for it. Even my culture and values. Because [01:11:55] there’s no big bank of Mummy and Daddy sitting behind here. There’s no private equity sitting here. You know, if we don’t, [01:12:00] you know, if we don’t bring the cash in, I have wages to pay. And it’s ultimately going to going to lead. We [01:12:05] do everything ethically. Fundamentally, it’s all about being ethical and the way you do it. You don’t sell any sort of dental treatment [01:12:10] you wouldn’t do to your own mum and dad and that crude about it. But our KPIs are really important. [01:12:15] And look, we’ve got five real key KPIs. I don’t think they’re anything, um, that will set the world apart [01:12:20] from what everyone else is doing in dentistry. I think what we’ve done is we’ve simplified those five, but no [01:12:25] one has more than one. So and that’s so similar to how you say you’ve got the one. So for our treatment [01:12:30] coordinator, for example, is how much cash they’re bringing in. Very simple okay. Yeah. For our [01:12:35] practice managers it’s all about turnover. How much work not. And that’s different [01:12:40] to cash by the way. Cash is someone coming in paying for their Invisalign treatments. I’ve got the money in the bank. Um, for [01:12:45] the for the practice manager is getting that work done because then it gets moved into your PNL. So [01:12:50] that’s that’s it for that. And then for my CFO it’s about EBITDA. So cost reduction, [01:12:55] that kind of thing. So, um, you know, for our reception team, it’s all about planned subscriptions. How many planned patients [01:13:00] have you have you converted over. So those are the kinds of things that we’re working on. But the key [01:13:05] and I think what you said is absolutely right. You can’t deal with 50 million KPIs. Yeah. The one KPI that’s [01:13:10] important to you, I think you can really focus.

Payman Langroudi: On, but the one that’s important to you is experience. Right? It’s difficult [01:13:15] to measure that isn’t it. Yeah.

Kunal Thakker: And so coming to experience. So this is one we’re really, really focusing on right now. Um and [01:13:20] the patient experience. Because when you go on things like Trustpilot uh, Google reviews, you know, you’re not always [01:13:25] you’re either going to get two extremes, you’re going to get the patient that’s got really upset and hasn’t had an opportunity to vent their frustration [01:13:30] in practice. Right. Okay. Or you’ve got the, um, you’ve [01:13:35] got the ones where you’ve said, oh, please leave me a Google review. Right? Yeah. Naturally they’re going [01:13:40] to sit in the chair. They’re going to give you a five star whilst they sat there in the chair giving you a five star. So that doesn’t give me a real perspective [01:13:45] on the.

Payman Langroudi: Overall going.

Kunal Thakker: On what’s actually going on. So you know, so we’re looking at ways [01:13:50] in which of how we change. How we change this and really analyse experience. Now [01:13:55] one of the things that concepts that I’m looking at and this is still very fresh actually my management team don’t even know, [01:14:00] know about this completely. But um, you know, when you go into a toilet and then you get that, that little screen that says, [01:14:05] how was your experience today? You got you got red and the green experience. All you do is press it. [01:14:10] I want to put something like that in, and I’m looking at different options around that, because how do I get [01:14:15] more detail. Because I might get 50 greens and get five five reds or vice versa. [01:14:20] How do I, uh, look into that detail? So we’re really looking at this right now. Um, because from an online [01:14:25] presence perspective, we’re constantly focussed on Trustpilot, Google. But I don’t think that’s telling me really the [01:14:30] experience going on in my clinic. So more to come, but it’s something I’m certainly focussed on.

Payman Langroudi: I think, you know, [01:14:35] word of mouth referrals. Is that really important one? Yeah, really, really, really [01:14:40] important one. Because you know, if that’s going up all the time, that’s that’s just, you know, there’s [01:14:45] something that’s happening in a practice isn’t it.

Kunal Thakker: Yeah it is. And but you know again it’s it’s it’s [01:14:50] really challenging to measure these stuff. And I never want to make excuses for these things because, you know, when we’re doing our marketing and [01:14:55] looking at our ROI on marketing and, you know, we’re asking every single patient, how did you hear from us? How [01:15:00] did you hear about us? Why did you book in? And, you know, um, you know, people aren’t always open [01:15:05] to saying it’s not always accurate.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not.

Kunal Thakker: Always accurate. And that’s my that’s my doubt with it. But look, it’s an important stat. [01:15:10] It’s one we measure. Word of mouth marketing. Um, on our, uh, actually after this I [01:15:15] got my return on investment meeting. But, you know, so for marketing, I think we do we certainly we certainly do [01:15:20] do look at that. And I think it’s a good it’s a good sign. And then you talked about marketing was your other question. You know I [01:15:25] focus on marketing. We’re hugely focussed on on marketing. It’s a big part of our business. [01:15:30] Uh, big marketing spend that we spend every single year. Um, and we, we try to we try to [01:15:35] measure it. Our marketing style is very different to, to other, other groups. Uh, of course [01:15:40] everyone’s doing SEO, Google ads and social media. But if you look at our content and things that we’re doing, [01:15:45] it’s all about being authentic. Um, there’s a certain amount where we get beautiful cameras and just [01:15:50] bought a GoPro and get nice kind of polished footage, and that looks like a brochure. But often [01:15:55] what our what our content is, is about making it really authentic. So iPhone, Android [01:16:00] phone, you know, taking that moment, that smile reveal all of that kind of stuff, I think not.

Kunal Thakker: I think [01:16:05] I know when I look at the engagement stats and the impressions that I look at, um, uh, [01:16:10] you know, the authentic content does far superior to the GoPro and the polished [01:16:15] content that we have done. Um, and I think there’s a balance that you do need the polished content to, you know, give [01:16:20] the professionalism of your brand. But a lot of what works for us is our authentic, our authentic [01:16:25] content. We work a lot with influencers, uh, love him or hate him. And I see a lot on social [01:16:30] media saying I’d never do an influencer or, um, you know, one of these Love [01:16:35] Islanders. You know, we do the entire Love Islanders, we do all of the, um, Towie [01:16:40] cast. Um, and they’ve been hugely, hugely impactful to our bottom line. [01:16:45] Um, and, you know, we’re selective about which influencers we work on. We have very tight agreements with those influencers. [01:16:50] Um, but you know, where others will turn them away. We won’t turn them away. And we’ll take a [01:16:55] punt and we’ll do a free case and and see what we get off the back of it. And more times than not, it’s worked in our favour. [01:17:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Influence is a funny one, man. Because you gotta, you gotta. It’s one of those things where you’ve got to think [01:17:05] there will be cases where it’s not going to work for you as part of the process. Of course, as [01:17:10] a dentist, sometimes you feel like, oh, I did it, and I got nothing out of that one. And you [01:17:15] just can’t believe that, right? Yeah. Um, we work with influencers quite a lot. What I found is it’s difficult [01:17:20] to get authenticity out of them. Yeah, that’s that’s my worry. Although, although when you look at your own [01:17:25] behaviour. Yeah, yeah. Like if Joe Rogan says on a podcast, anything [01:17:30] is great. I’ll go and buy that thing. Yeah, I really will. Yeah, yeah. And I think I’m immune [01:17:35] to influencers and things but but you know, I’ve done it. I’ve bought I’ve bought some sleep [01:17:40] I know sleep tablet because he said it was good. And who the hell is Joe Rogan? [01:17:45] He’s not an expert in sleep. So when you look at yourself, [01:17:50] yeah, you know, some people say, I’m not. I don’t get affected by branding. Yeah, yeah. But then there’s [01:17:55] a brand that affects them, too, man. You know, the no brand brand. This this, this.

Kunal Thakker: Huge, [01:18:00] you know, there’s huge people, you know, look, I think, you know, Stacey Solomon’s one of our patients. Yeah. Um, and [01:18:05] by the way, she’s not an influencer. She will not, uh, she will not allow us to give her free treatment. I’ve [01:18:10] tried. Um, she’s actually promoted us, but she’s done it off her own back. Um, because, you [01:18:15] know, we’ve delivered the service level that she wants us to do. Now, she’s a great one. And, you know, but she’s a huge influencer. [01:18:20] You know, I, you know, when she put us, she tagged us into her story. You know, I saw [01:18:25] our following go up. I saw her inquiries explode and our bookings explode. So there is. So [01:18:30] you have to pick the right people. You have to have the right engagement with them in terms of what you want out of them. The authenticity [01:18:35] is really important. I agree. You know, you don’t want someone saying, oh, I got this whitening system. Um, [01:18:40] and it was really great. Um, but, you know, but if you can do it in the right way and you can work.

Payman Langroudi: From [01:18:45] the squat perspective, this building is on its way. This this building is being built. Sorry. Yeah. No. And people [01:18:50] are hitting the QR code and some people are booking in. Yes. How early is the marketing starting [01:18:55] for this site?

Kunal Thakker: About 3 or 4 weeks earlier.

Payman Langroudi: We’re starting before opening.

Kunal Thakker: Before opening.

Payman Langroudi: So you’ve got [01:19:00] some Google ads going out?

Kunal Thakker: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And people are leads are coming in. Yeah.

Kunal Thakker: We’ve got leafleting [01:19:05] happening in the area. Oh, really? Yeah. We’ve got a guy. We’ve got a guy that does all of our leafleting because I still believe [01:19:10] in leafleting. I don’t think it changes the world, but I think there’s a there’s a place for leafleting. Um, so [01:19:15] leafleting is really important. And then we open the front. The front is open two weeks prior to the official opening, [01:19:20] so we can take bookings. People will come in and say, oh, that’s good. Can I find out a little bit about you? Yeah, and we’re a noisy bunch. [01:19:25] Um, so, you know, I said about disrupting, you know, we’ll get the DJ and we’ll go and stand outside the practice and get [01:19:30] the music going. Leafleting. Get the ice poles in if it’s a hot day or the non-alcoholic [01:19:35] gin and tonics, those kinds of things will do because they’ll stop. When you give someone a non-alcoholic gin [01:19:40] and tonic. They’ll stop and have a chat with you and you can build rapport with them.

Payman Langroudi: And you literally [01:19:45] doing that at every opening, like every single one month before that. Yeah, there’s a playbook for that.

Kunal Thakker: The style [01:19:50] changes, right? You know, if it’s in the middle of winter, we’re not going to do gin and tonic. Of course, we’ll do sugar free hot chocolate, for example. But [01:19:55] yeah, there will always be something that’s on the on site presence. Um, you know, we’ve done [01:20:00] where we’ve got some of our influencers to come in and do a ribbon cutting exercise and go live on their Instagram. So [01:20:05] especially for TikTok. Sorry for the Essex practices. Um, you know, we bought the Towie lot in and [01:20:10] got them to the opening. Phenomenal.

Payman Langroudi: So the door’s open now. Yeah. How many dentists have you hired? Three already. [01:20:15]

Kunal Thakker: So for the first two weeks. Oh. So Dental. So typically what we’re doing is we’re hiring two dentists in. [01:20:20] Um, and a hygienist in. And the idea is, is the first two weeks [01:20:25] there will be no dentist, because that’s our time to get the diary full. Yeah. Yeah. Whenever I bring a dentist [01:20:30] in, I always say it’s six weeks to get your diary full. I can normally do it within a couple of weeks. So. But, [01:20:35] um, the idea is, is the first two weeks there’s no dentist. It’s just the tko’s booking, [01:20:40] doing consultations. And then and then they go and get booked in with the dentist. So when the dentist [01:20:45] starts, typically their diary is about 50 to 70% full. Wow. [01:20:50] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s superb.

Kunal Thakker: And what I also do normally what happens with my practices is when I’m setting [01:20:55] up a practice, there’ll be a dentist in my group say, oh, you’re opening in Orpington, can I come and work there? [01:21:00] So I was like, yeah, of course you can. So and they’ve already got the trust in us. So they know actually if [01:21:05] I say six weeks I’m going to deliver it. And it does come down to trust. You have to, you know, that the [01:21:10] pressure is on. Um, because what I also find is that the opening time, the first three [01:21:15] months, is the make or break. You’re either going to get busy. You’re either going to make [01:21:20] it a success or you’re not. So you can’t take your foot off for the first three months on not [01:21:25] only service standards, but also your desire around booking. So, you know, we were talking about KPIs earlier. [01:21:30] Uh, our KPIs are all linked to a bonus that they get that same month. They don’t [01:21:35] wait six months to get a bonus. Right. Yeah. Or a year to get a bonus. They get the bonus the following [01:21:40] payroll cycle. So. And that’s when the tcos to the reception team to the board. [01:21:45] Exec board. Everyone has got a a bonus thing. So everyone is part of the journey. [01:21:50] They’re bought into the vision. And you know, because there’s this other thing that this concept, oh, you’re earning all the money, right? [01:21:55] Yeah. Anyone that owns a dental practice knows you’re not earning all the money, but that’s a perception. So I have to accept that as [01:22:00] reality. Um, so. Okay, I’m earning money. You’re coming on this journey. I’m going to make sure you earn money. So every [01:22:05] plan you sign up, you’re going to get bonus. Every every implant patient Invisalign patient, composite bonding [01:22:10] patient. You get a bonus every new patient booking. You’re going to get a bonus when you say bonus.

Payman Langroudi: Is it money? [01:22:15] What is it? It’s money. Cash.

Kunal Thakker: It’s cash. But it’s all gone through tax by the way. But it’s a bonus. [01:22:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So look we we incentivise our team as well. Yeah. But the one thing I found is.

[PRODUCTION]: Five [01:22:25] minutes to wrap up.

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah.

Kunal Thakker: There we go. [01:22:30]

Payman Langroudi: The one thing I found is sometimes you get when you incentivise your team, sometimes you get [01:22:35] a unintended consequence. I agree. Yeah. So? So for instance, the people who answered [01:22:40] the phones. Yeah. They’re incentivised on sales. Yeah. But but then, [01:22:45] then because they’re incentivised on sales. Yeah. Um. Or they were [01:22:50] only incentivised on sales. They were only focusing on our big users. Yeah. And so the amount of work [01:22:55] it took to get a new user to come on and a new user. Normally you can’t see a big amount of [01:23:00] money in front of your face. Yeah. And someone needs to go. And they weren’t focusing on getting new users. Yeah. [01:23:05] So have you had any of those situations? Yeah we.

Kunal Thakker: Do. And I think it’s you know, selling in dentistry is a real taboo word. [01:23:10] And people see it as a really negative thing. So, you know, going back to the fact that actually you don’t sell something [01:23:15] to your own mum and dad. Yeah. Um, you know, so the way that we’ve kind of controlled, controlled [01:23:20] that. So we look at refund levels because the minute they’ve been to a TCO, the TCO sold the treatment. They [01:23:25] go and see the dentist, the dentist are ethical. They know what can and can’t be done. They’re not going to take excessive [01:23:30] risk on a patient or do anything that’s not clinically right. So we monitor refund levels where [01:23:35] the treatment plan has been rejected because they shouldn’t have been sold it. So we look at that and then we retrain [01:23:40] and people know we’re watching, people know we’re watching. So that kind of disincentivizes that. But the other part of your question [01:23:45] was really about how do people think about the long term. They’re not just thinking about the quick sale. And for us, the long game in [01:23:50] dentistry for us is is the plan, right? We want that patient to join the plan. So if you come [01:23:55] in for a Invisalign treatment with us and we’ve got a promotion on, say, £500 off, that’s [01:24:00] fine. We’ll give you the £500 and genuinely we’ll give you that £500 off. But we only give you that £500 off if you join [01:24:05] the plan.

Kunal Thakker: So that is what gives us that long term patient. And that’s how I’ve managed to build up the plan. [01:24:10] Being honest with you is staying true to that. So sometimes those patients say, well, I don’t like subscriptions. I don’t want to do that. [01:24:15] Okay, fine, pay full price for Invisalign then. And the way that you and the way that we talk to [01:24:20] our patients about it is because once you spend three and a half grand on your Invisalign, you need to look after it. [01:24:25] You know, you need to come back every six months, make sure that you’ve not got any relapse. And there is a real ethical [01:24:30] side of being having a patient that is on the subscription side. So getting them to believe into that, selling that. And [01:24:35] actually if they get the patient to sign up to the plan, they get the plan bonus as well. So there’s a there’s an increase. [01:24:40] So that’s how we get them to play the long game. Um, but I do worry I always worry about [01:24:45] people overselling or selling the wrong thing. You know. You know you won’t want you won’t won’t [01:24:50] want a TCO selling veneers to a patient that’s got beautiful teeth, right. Of course, you know, and healthy teeth. [01:24:55] So all of that kind of stuff it must come up though right?

Payman Langroudi: That that issue is an issue.

Kunal Thakker: It does. But because [01:25:00] they because the because there’s a, there’s a segregation of duty. Right. Yeah. So the TCO make the sale. But [01:25:05] if that happens it turns into a refund. They’re not getting their bonus. There’s no point wasting everyone’s time. Yeah. Instead [01:25:10] if the patient’s unhappy it’s better to talk to them about it. Yeah. It’s about you. Look, your teeth [01:25:15] are really good, right? Yeah. You don’t, you know, you don’t need you don’t need veneers. You’ve got beautiful teeth. What are you unhappy with? [01:25:20] Let’s understand. And typically it might be the edges. You know they might need some edge bonding as opposed to kind of veneers. That [01:25:25] is a more likely plan that the dentist will then agree to do. So that’s how we’ve kind of made sure [01:25:30] we don’t have any bad practices.

Payman Langroudi: On this board. We’d like to talk about mistakes. Yes. What [01:25:35] would you say is your biggest mistake on this journey?

Kunal Thakker: Uh, do [01:25:40] you know, um, I made loads of mistakes. Let’s be really honest. And [01:25:45] I don’t ever claim to be perfect. We strive for perfection. We never achieve it. Um, but. So the mistakes [01:25:50] that I made, you know, the fundamental mistakes is when I have driven my agenda [01:25:55] based on someone else’s opinion. Okay. And as an example, one [01:26:00] of the things is, is, you know, there’s this whole how many practices have you got, right? Everyone’s really [01:26:05] egotistical vanity metrics. It is a vanity metric. And one of my practices. And so [01:26:10] so I bought one of the practices, the NHS one um, I actually bought and [01:26:15] it wasn’t a, it wasn’t a squat practice. And it was because of this whole concept of how we want number of [01:26:20] practices. Um, and I’m looking to divest that investment actually, because it’s not [01:26:25] part of the Tooth Club group. It’s not branded as the Tooth Club Group. It’s kind of a separate separate entity. And I did it because [01:26:30] there was this whole numbers game and what I’ve learned, and it was a mistake because it wasn’t the right practice [01:26:35] for the group. It doesn’t fit. It’s not performed how the rest of the group has performed. And it was. [01:26:40] And it’s been a real mistake. It’s been a really costly mistake of mine, but I’ve learned from it. And actually, [01:26:45] um, you know, there’s there’s no sense in having, you know, 50 practices if they’re [01:26:50] not making profit and they don’t and they don’t align and they’re a constant thorn in your backside, of course. Right. [01:26:55] So I think that’s I think that’s probably the mistake that I’ve made. And I’ve, I’ve, I’ve learned from [01:27:00] um, and but then I’ve also learned that actually it’s okay to put your hands up and say it’s a mistake and actually [01:27:05] proper strategy behind it. And that’s why we’re going to reinvest or divest from that, that investment. [01:27:10]

Payman Langroudi: I’ve come to the end of our time. Um, I feel like I could ask you for [01:27:15] loads more questions. Um, but we always finish with the same questions. Yeah. Fantasy [01:27:20] dinner party. Yeah. Three guests, dead or alive. [01:27:25] Who do you reckon?

Kunal Thakker: Dead or alive. Do you know what I have to say, Michael Jackson? Just because I’m a huge [01:27:30] fan like you, you have to. Unfortunately.

Payman Langroudi: Unfortunately, I was a Prince fan. Oh.

Kunal Thakker: Were you?

Payman Langroudi: You [01:27:35] couldn’t.

Kunal Thakker: Be both. Yeah. Although you got to have respect for Prince. Yeah. [01:27:40] No, Michael, I’m a huge Michael Jackson fan. Uh, I love the song. The dance. Um, who else [01:27:45] do you know? I love Steven Bartlett. I feel he he’s really made not just on his talk, [01:27:50] but he’s really changed the way people think about business entrepreneurship. Uh, [01:27:55] real ambassador for it. Something I never had when I was younger. You know, it was always. You go and work for a big company. [01:28:00] Um, so I love I love Steven, Steven Bartlett, and then another person that I could [01:28:05] have at the dinner table. Do you know what? Mark Zuckerberg. [01:28:10] Yeah, a bit of Facebook. Learned some inspirational story. I think those will probably be. That’ll [01:28:15] be a good a good, interesting bunch. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:28:20] the final question, it’s kind of a deathbed question.

Kunal Thakker: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: On your deathbed, [01:28:25] surrounded by your loved ones? Yeah. What are three pieces of advice you’d give them? [01:28:30]

Kunal Thakker: You know, [01:28:35] that’s a really hard question. What advice would I give them on my deathbed? Don’t sweat the small [01:28:40] stuff. Um, I think is number is number one. Um, do you know what? I’m [01:28:45] big. I’m quite spiritual. So I believe in the universe. And I believe that what’s meant to be is be. And you [01:28:50] can attract the law of attracting what you want. So having a positive mindset and not letting things and [01:28:55] not letting things break you, uh, bring you down. Um, but I guess you know what the big one I’d [01:29:00] say is, you know, don’t worry about what people are doing around you. Have your vision and and [01:29:05] go for it. Learn from what’s going on around, but don’t let it distract you on your journey. Yeah. Um, because [01:29:10] even now, today, like, you know, I get investment opportunities and things that kind of are there to distract [01:29:15] me from my mission and what I’m doing. And I have to be really clear about. No, I’m on a mission. I know what I’m doing and not [01:29:20] not allow myself to get distracted. So, um, I think, you know.

Payman Langroudi: For that What you’re saying they’re focusing [01:29:25] on your customer rather than your competitors, for instance.

Kunal Thakker: Agreed.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so, so important. [01:29:30] So, so.

Kunal Thakker: Important. And you know, you’ve got to do what’s right for you. And, you know, [01:29:35] like, you know, I’ve created Tooth Club. There’s other great dental groups out there or dental practices out there. Everyone’s doing it a little bit differently. [01:29:40] I think it’s the difference. That’s the beauty. Um, because do you know what those old [01:29:45] school, dirty old dental practices that I used to go as a child, they don’t exist that much anymore. I don’t [01:29:50] think there’s a few. There’s a few. But, you know, they, you know, and whereas I think, you know, a lot of [01:29:55] people are bringing their dental practices into the 21st century, you know, with the with the nice scanners, with [01:30:00] the, the good technology and with the desire to do the right thing by the patient. And I think that’s [01:30:05] a beauty thing, thing that we should be proud of as a.

Payman Langroudi: As a finance guy. You haven’t gone down the route of [01:30:10] private equity or VC. Is that because you there’s the the [01:30:15] sort of urge to own your own business and be your own boss and do your own crazy thing is stronger.

Kunal Thakker: So [01:30:20] I’ve had I’ve had offers actually I have, I’ve had offers. Um, I had one [01:30:25] that last year that I was very, very close to signing with. Um, and I didn’t. So you might. [01:30:30]

Payman Langroudi: Still do it in the future.

Kunal Thakker: Do you know what? I might still do it. What was the what was.

Payman Langroudi: The key reason you didn’t go ahead? Was it that [01:30:35] control thing? You know.

Kunal Thakker: You’ve got you’ve. Do you know it [01:30:40] has. Everything has to have its time. It was too early. It was too early. Not the right [01:30:45] deal. And I think there was still a way to go. Go for myself. I also think the market with [01:30:50] interest rates and things weren’t the right time. So. But I would say to anyone that’s got a Dental [01:30:55] group or Dental business or even one practice, make sure you know what your exit strategy is, whether that’s retirement, [01:31:00] whether that’s selling to the corporates, whether that’s private equity. You’ve got to know what what exit [01:31:05] strategies you need to know how you get out is um, so I think that’s really, really important. Will we do it [01:31:10] one day? Possibly. Um, but it has to be the right partnership. If I’m going to get in bed with someone, it [01:31:15] has to be the right partnership. It has to be the right people, and it has to be the right timing. And I think for us right now. [01:31:20] If I can do it myself and I can continue to put my spin on things, um, and get my business [01:31:25] to be in a place where we’ve really tried, tested this model and be really confident in that will be the right time [01:31:30] to do it.

Payman Langroudi: The funny thing about it is it’s like there’s growing pains. It’s not like someone [01:31:35] gives you £30 million. Everything’s going to be all right. Right? Um, because, you know, right now you’ve got your [01:31:40] team that does the practices. Now, if someone says, I want you to open two practices a week. [01:31:45] So now you need two teams, right? Yes, but you’ve only got one cable guy. Yeah, I know exactly. Changes [01:31:50] the whole story. Yeah.

Kunal Thakker: It does. And you know, the the scale, [01:31:55] the scale actually excites me because I feel like I can build that scale. Um, but, you know, [01:32:00] there’s when you involve private equity, they want to they are demanding of certain results. And I’ve always [01:32:05] had this thing that if you have to choose between being the biggest or the best, we’re going to choose to be the best. I don’t want [01:32:10] 50 practices that are turning over half a million. Right. Yeah. You know, my practices turn over a lot more good [01:32:15] size EBITDA. So I’d rather fewer. But do it. Do it the right way. And that’s kind of been at the core. [01:32:20] So you have these conflicting, conflicting views and how you manage that. And getting the right partner [01:32:25] that’s bought into that I think is really important. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much [01:32:30] for doing this. I really enjoyed it.

Kunal Thakker: Thank you. It’s been great.

Payman Langroudi: You enjoyed it. Thank you.

[VOICE]: This [01:32:35] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one [01:32:40] on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:32:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:32:50] for listening guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And [01:32:55] just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we [01:33:00] had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [01:33:05]

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [01:33:10] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. [01:33:15] Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go [00:00:10] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:15] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:00:20]

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Mark Allen onto [00:00:25] the podcast. Mark is general manager chief executive of Bupa Dental Care. [00:00:30] Um, Bupa, a lot of people don’t know, is a not for [00:00:35] profit organisation, but not not a charity either. Run, run pretty [00:00:40] much like a for profit company. Yeah. Um, Mark, [00:00:45] you’re part of a massive group and you’re an insurance [00:00:50] guy, right? So you’ve come from an RSA insurance, another massive company? Yeah. [00:00:55] I like to get my first burning question out before. Before anything? Yeah. [00:01:00] What surprised you about Dental?

Mark Allan: You’re not messing about with the first question [00:01:05] there, are you? That’s a really good one. Um, what surprised me? I [00:01:10] think that I don’t know whether it surprised me, but [00:01:15] certainly the fastest thing I think I learned really fast was, um, um, [00:01:20] the importance and the, the family nature of [00:01:25] a of a practice. So you talk about being part of a big organisation with 80,000 employees [00:01:30] across the world or whatever, or you work in a call centre and there’s a thousand people in there, [00:01:35] and then you go to a practice and there’s 12. Yeah. And the intimacy of that [00:01:40] practice and the the recognition that if there’s not a really good harmony in that [00:01:45] team, if the practice manager hasn’t got that the team working really well or someone’s got something going [00:01:50] on for them, the importance of the team recognising that and being able to adjust [00:01:55] or even with small numbers, somebody leaves and the burden that falls on [00:02:00] the remainder of the people. So yeah, I guess the micro, the micro nature of the [00:02:05] business. So, you know, we’re running a big corporate business with 380 [00:02:10] odd practices, but the real action takes place in very local, very small, [00:02:15] um, stages, I guess.

Payman Langroudi: So in, in a single [00:02:20] practice generally. I mean, you know, before the corporate model came along, there was a principle. [00:02:25] Yeah. And I guess the challenge is running that without a principal and [00:02:30] all the egos and, and the, the model [00:02:35] of having the manager as the key person in the practice. How have you found dentists [00:02:40] get on with that.

Mark Allan: Well, I guess there’s not one answer to that, [00:02:45] because the thing you learn very quickly is there are very different types of dentists at different [00:02:50] stages in their career, different ages, different backgrounds and so [00:02:55] on. I think the thing again, you know, steep learning curve. You go in fresh set of eyes [00:03:00] and you notice things. The thing I noticed as well, really quickly was you [00:03:05] have to make sure the practice manager doesn’t think they’re the boss of everybody in the in the practice. [00:03:10] So yes, they are the manager of the nurse. They’re the manager of the reception team, the treatment [00:03:15] coordinator. But they are partner with with with the dentist [00:03:20] within the self-employed model, you know, we basically create an environment where self-employed [00:03:25] professionals can come and ply their trade. And our job is to make sure it’s a great environment for [00:03:30] them where they feel they can be successful. And now that doesn’t mean that the practice manager doesn’t [00:03:35] sometimes have to nudge things in the right direction. Um, but the [00:03:40] most important thing in a business like ours is that we listen and we build our business around [00:03:45] what our dentists, hygienists, therapists are telling us. So, um, it’s a skilful [00:03:50] job. The the practice manager job. I went on record really early on, quite [00:03:55] quickly in public forums, on videos and so on, saying, I think the practice [00:04:00] manager job is the hardest job I’ve ever seen in my career, just because of what they’re juggling and [00:04:05] the pace of everything and the the volume of transactions and the risk they carry and so on. [00:04:10] You don’t have that. If you’re a, I don’t know, a team [00:04:15] leader in a in a call centre, that’s a tough job as well. But you don’t have the variety [00:04:20] and the, the personalities that you’re trying to manage and the mix self-employed, [00:04:25] employed and so on. So I’ve got enormous respect for the role of, um, [00:04:30] of practice manager.

Payman Langroudi: And how do you guys find them? Do you internally promote.

Mark Allan: Yeah. [00:04:35]

Payman Langroudi: Or have you, have you had any experience of bringing them out from outside? [00:04:40] Is one better than the other?

Mark Allan: Um, I think it depends, doesn’t it? You’ve we’ve got all sorts [00:04:45] of backgrounds for, for, um, practice managers. We might have [00:04:50] someone who worked their way through was the lead nurse and becomes the practice manager. We’ve got people who come [00:04:55] from retail. And I think what you tend to see is that the strengths, the innate [00:05:00] strengths, are obviously linked to where they’ve come from. So if you bring someone from retail, the customer [00:05:05] experience, the looking at the numbers, the driving, the performance is perhaps much more [00:05:10] natural than if you were the lead nurse. But the clinical care, the patient experience is perhaps stronger [00:05:15] if you’ve been a lead nurse. But the best leaders in general are people [00:05:20] who don’t think they have to have all the answers. So you need someone who’s confident enough [00:05:25] to be able to stand in the middle of that and work with the people around them to, [00:05:30] to make things happen. So I think we’re we’re fairly relaxed. We definitely are keen to [00:05:35] promote from within. Um, and there’s always great opportunities to do that when someone, [00:05:40] uh, is off for a period of time or you end up just moving people around on an interim basis to test people, [00:05:45] and they do a great job, they don’t want to go back. So then you find a move. One of the beauties [00:05:50] of having 400 practices were a big business with a lot going on in local geographies. [00:05:55] Yeah. So if I take Peterborough, for example, we’ve got eight practices that [00:06:00] you could very feasibly work in, which makes it a much bigger business and opens up all sorts of [00:06:05] career opportunities for people.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, because, you know, working for a corporate has, has had a [00:06:10] sort of a bad reputation back in the day. I certainly remember around ten, [00:06:15] 15 years ago, it was sort of a difficult thing to do and a lot of churn [00:06:20] of clinicians. Yeah. But today I find I talk to [00:06:25] young dentists, and a good proportion of them choose to work for a corporate. [00:06:30] And that was never the case back ten, ten, 15 years ago. It was like, oh, I managed [00:06:35] to get a corporate job. Yeah. And it’s almost like, you know what you’re going to get. Yeah. Is [00:06:40] one thing. Yeah. Um, whereas you don’t know what you’re going to get if you go to any practice. You have no [00:06:45] idea what you’re going to get. Yeah. And my wife works for Bupa, as I said to you and [00:06:50] what you just said there. There is a flexibility to it in that we moved house and she just moved [00:06:55] practice. Yeah. And the company was very good at, you know, accommodating that. Good.

Mark Allan: Yeah. I’m [00:07:00] glad you said that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, that said, if if, if a dentist wants to do something. [00:07:05] So, for instance, you know, my wife is part owner of enlighten. Yeah. And said, well, why [00:07:10] don’t we do an enlightened promotion with a behemoth like like Bupa. It [00:07:15] took, I think, eight months to get the creative approved. Yeah. Up the chain. [00:07:20] Yeah. So how do you manage that? I mean, for instance, if there’s a problem. Yeah. I [00:07:25] guess someone goes to the practice manager. Let’s say the practice manager can’t handle that problem. What’s the next person up [00:07:30] from that? And how can you manage 400 practices like that? How does it work?

Mark Allan: Well, [00:07:35] so, I mean, you’ve hit the nail on the head of one of the biggest challenges. Um, for sure. [00:07:40] Um, if you’re an independent owner with one practice and you want to do something, you’ve probably done it by [00:07:45] 2:00 in the afternoon and off you go. Yeah. Whereas we have, um, obviously [00:07:50] some bureaucracy, but we also have responsibilities because our brand stands for something. So we have to be [00:07:55] very careful with that. Yeah. Things like data security for someone like Bupa, um, that [00:08:00] we have to be thoughtful about. So, um, I think [00:08:05] what we’re, what we’re trying to do is we’re trying to blitz the stuff that’s not necessary and really [00:08:10] fuel that entrepreneurial spirit, but be very honest with people about where the where the line is now. [00:08:15] We’re on a journey with that. So if you went and did a poll of 100 [00:08:20] of our dentists or nurses or wherever across our, um, patch, [00:08:25] I’m sure you would tell, you would hear some people say, yeah, it was fine. I got it done. You would hear some people [00:08:30] say, oh my God, you know, that was a nightmare. And that’s there for sure. [00:08:35] And we’re making progress. And it all keeps coming back to listening to to what’s being [00:08:40] said on, on the ground and also working out what you want to react [00:08:45] to because some of the things that get said on the ground. They’re not things that you want to, to, [00:08:50] to, to do. Yeah. Um, but what we try and drill into our people is you need [00:08:55] to be able to get people to tell you what they’re thinking. If you agree with them, do something about it and make sure [00:09:00] it gets done.

Mark Allan: And if you don’t agree with them, be honest. Have that conversation and tell them. Give them the reasons. [00:09:05] Data security is a brilliant example of this, where we [00:09:10] often do get, um, you know, it feels like lockdown and tough. Yeah. So [00:09:15] for an organisation like Bupa, even though you might think the little practice on [00:09:20] a high street can’t be a risk, it could be. There could be a way of getting through whatever you’re doing [00:09:25] there and getting into into other parts. And with GDPR and the fines and so on that [00:09:30] we could encounter, it’s a serious business. So the consequences for someone like [00:09:35] Bupa of something like data security are much bigger than it would be. Therefore, we’re much [00:09:40] stronger and tighter on that than probably the average person would be. But we make no excuses [00:09:45] for that. But when you explain that to people and say, this is why. Yeah, generally it’s like, oh, okay, right, [00:09:50] I get it. Okay. And actually they start to feel quite, um, comforted actually, that we [00:09:55] take data security that seriously. So, um, it’s horses. Horses for [00:10:00] courses. There are loads of things that we’ve changed that needed to change because it was painful to get stuff done, [00:10:05] or loads of areas where we weren’t listening as much as we should have been, um, or where people [00:10:10] had walked past things thinking, well, there’s no point in raising that now. And that’s the worst place you you get to where [00:10:15] people think that’s not good enough, but I’m not going to raise it because it won’t get changed. So [00:10:20] I think we’re unrecognisable from where we were. But there’s a load more for us to do to keep [00:10:25] working on that.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you mentioned Bupa as a brand and it’s got an [00:10:30] enviable reputation as a brand almost synonymous with private health care. [00:10:35] And I mean, I looked Bupa started in 1947, one year [00:10:40] before the NHS. Yeah. Which is extraordinary in itself. Right. Celebrate. How [00:10:45] much does brand protection figure in your day to day? [00:10:50] I mean, because it’s such a strong brand, you guys have to really keep that [00:10:55] going, right?

Mark Allan: Yeah. I think brands are really interesting topic and we talk about [00:11:00] it a lot in Bupa dental care, actually. So you already said in the intro, Bupa’s [00:11:05] ownership status is misunderstood, for starters. And when when people [00:11:10] realise we’re a provident association so we don’t have shareholders and all the excess profit that we make [00:11:15] beyond our cost of capital gets ploughed back into the business. And generally, in the [00:11:20] spirit of three things, one is investing in giving better patient experience and customer experience. [00:11:25] Looking after our people better so better benefits, better [00:11:30] investment in tools and so on. And increasingly sustainability as an organisation [00:11:35] and realising the role we have to play in sustainable healthcare. Um, and [00:11:40] when you explain that to people like, oh, I just thought all those prophets that get made, I thought they were just like, filling some [00:11:45] shareholders pockets. No. And that straight away changes people’s perceptions and I think warms people [00:11:50] to our brand. The point you made about, um, the brand being synonymous [00:11:55] with private medical insurance is is really true. When I first came to Bupa, uh, [00:12:00] seven years ago in the insurance business, I met some insurance brokers and they said, [00:12:05] one of the things you’ll learn really quickly is that people say things like, my, my, my Bupa [00:12:10] is with AXA.

Mark Allan: So that’s how yeah that’s yeah. Hoover. [00:12:15] It’s that’s how powerful the brand is at a local level for us. [00:12:20] Um, we think the brand is a should be an enormous benefit to [00:12:25] us. And that is in two ways. Number one is our, um, consumer brand. [00:12:30] So when a patient comes into a Bupa establishment, they see the the blue square on the wall. [00:12:35] We know that stands for high quality healthcare. So they should feel at ease. [00:12:40] And that would be true if you went into the Cromwell Hospital, which is which is owned by us. If [00:12:45] you went into one of our health clinics, our dental practices, our our care care homes, you would expect that high [00:12:50] standard of clinical, um, um, care. So [00:12:55] that serves us well and, and, and helps us. The thing we’re really working hard [00:13:00] on though is what is the Bupa brand for stand for in the dental market. So with dental professionals, [00:13:05] people clinical professionals would be that nurses, hygienist, therapists, dentists. [00:13:10] Um, and we are trying really hard to change that that [00:13:15] perception a of being a corporate and B what does what does Bupa [00:13:20] mean in that industry.

Mark Allan: I mean, we’re a relative newcomer really to this market at scale [00:13:25] is only in 2016 that we went from something like 20 practices to 500 [00:13:30] overnight. And, um, probably in the last 18 months, we’ve really [00:13:35] tuned in to what Bupa can stand for. And so if you we know if you’re a let’s just say [00:13:40] you’re a general dentist. We know the things that are important to you are a [00:13:45] nice practice environment, a stable team, stable nurse to support you, uh, [00:13:50] continuous professional development to feel like you’re being looked after. Good tools to to [00:13:55] do the job with all those things are within the the power of Bupa to do. [00:14:00] And we’re working really hard to stand out in the dentistry market and the labour market. [00:14:05] If you like to be perceived as an organisation that really looks after its people [00:14:10] and for dentists. A lot of the feedback we’re seeing from from our dentist population [00:14:15] is that they are really, um, encouraged and comforted, actually, by the way, we’re [00:14:20] looking after the nurse population because it matters to them that we have low attrition of nurses [00:14:25] and that the nurses are happy and don’t want to go anywhere else.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a massive issue. It’s a massive issue in dentistry in [00:14:30] general. Yeah, that anyone who’s ever worked in a dental practice will know that the nurses [00:14:35] are running the show, and often they’ve got the hardest job [00:14:40] and the lowest paid job in a practice with not much control over [00:14:45] their day as a dentist. I remember, you know, at the end of a long procedure, [00:14:50] at least it would be over. And then and then, okay, you’d be writing notes, but the nurse [00:14:55] would go straight from the procedure to the cleanup. Yeah. And then straight back into the procedure. And [00:15:00] one thing that we’ve struggled with as a profession is progression. Career progression [00:15:05] for the, you know, DSPs. Yeah. Have you guys now got something? [00:15:10] If I join as a junior nurse in Bupa, what [00:15:15] can I expect if I do my best and work my socks off? I mean, is it a meritocracy [00:15:20] in the in the traditional sense of a sort of corporate environment, that [00:15:25] that person might end up becoming a regional manager or something? Yeah. I mean, it works.

Mark Allan: I can think of one [00:15:30] of our one of our regional, um, operations directors who runs the central region [00:15:35] was a nurse. So from Bupa. She’s just been in practice [00:15:40] for a long time, worked her way through, now runs the central region, which is 130 [00:15:45] practices now, you know, over £100 million P and L. [00:15:50] So she’s a great role model to be able to say, look, this is what’s possible. We’ve got lots of other senior people. [00:15:55] I’m just thinking about our business development director who’s based in Ireland. [00:16:00] She ran the Irish region. She now looks after business development across our entire patch. [00:16:05] She was a nurse. Oh, amazing. So we’ve got some great high profile stories, but also locally [00:16:10] it’s it’s really clear. Um, a because we’re it’s important to us to, to [00:16:15] give people development and show people that they can they can progress. But because of our geography [00:16:20] and the fact that, okay, there’s no opportunity in my practice here, but there’s one opened [00:16:25] up down the road, I can get there within my travel to work time. So we’re very proactive [00:16:30] about how we can progress talent. And um, yeah, our attrition for nurses [00:16:35] has just hit its lowest ever, ever level. And we run a we run an engagement [00:16:40] survey.

Mark Allan: As you’d imagine, every six months we work with an external organisation called glint, [00:16:45] who have a global database, and we’ve been really focussed on the [00:16:50] nurse engagement and nurse experience aims to do the right thing, to [00:16:55] be honest, because of the amazing job they do, but also because of the commercial, um, realisation [00:17:00] that they’re fundamental to the practice. And this thing you get a score and [00:17:05] world, world class is um, 80. That’s glints global database. If [00:17:10] you’re above 80 on engagement, you are a world class employer in the top decile globally. [00:17:15] And we measure it for every role. We measure it every six months. We measure it by practice, by [00:17:20] region. So it’s really detailed data. And our nurse engagement in the last six [00:17:25] months went up by four points and is now above that world class benchmark. So I think we’re feeling [00:17:30] confident that if you’re a nurse or want to be a dental nurse, and [00:17:35] you want to be really well looked after, and you want to feel like you could go go somewhere and develop your career. [00:17:40] Boop is an amazing place to be and we will continue to invest in that. [00:17:45] Um.

Payman Langroudi: What about career progression for clinicians, for dentists? I mean, [00:17:50] I know Annie Seaborne has just got a job as, like, [00:17:55] a clinical.

Mark Allan: Head of head of general dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he’s been on our courses [00:18:00] and all that. So congratulations to her. But okay, you’re a junior dentist. Can you join at that level [00:18:05] or you don’t have that, uh, PhD level?

Mark Allan: No. I mean, a junior dentist would [00:18:10] come in and ply their trade in the self-employed model and as an as an.

Payman Langroudi: Associate junior dentist, [00:18:15] what could happen? What would be like a career progression for a junior dentist?

Mark Allan: Well, career progression [00:18:20] for junior dentists would be, um, first of all, for junior dentist. You’re [00:18:25] plying your trade? Yeah. Uh, Neil always talks about this. How our director [00:18:30] of dentistry. I don’t know if you’ve come across Neil, but, you know, really important to do your [00:18:35] 10,000 hours of practice to, to, to, to get good so you’d get plenty [00:18:40] of hands on experience. We try and work with on on a mentor basis wherever we can. [00:18:45] That’s easiest. Easier said than done to to do that, we’re really stepping up our CPD um, [00:18:50] efforts. It’s something we probably didn’t do enough of. And again, [00:18:55] part of our brand and standing for world class healthcare. And there’s an opportunity to do that. [00:19:00] So there’s loads of within role opportunity to to grow and get get [00:19:05] better. Um, you can obviously then specialise and [00:19:10] start to develop different strains of being a dentist, but if you wanted to step into a more executive [00:19:15] role and maybe do a bit of both, we’ve got loads of opportunities. You can be an area clinical lead, [00:19:20] which means you’re on the ground maybe a couple of days a week, but still practising within an area, [00:19:25] going around checking how the dentist community is doing, uh, [00:19:30] getting involved in solving problems when when problems emerge. So we would have one of those in every [00:19:35] area within the country.

Payman Langroudi: Literally in those two days. Are you literally going practice to practice? Yeah.

Mark Allan: Or following [00:19:40] up on stuff and just being bringing a clinical voice to some of the business decisions that are being taken? [00:19:45] Then we have a regional clinical director. So same role, but next level up that sits on [00:19:50] the executive teams of those regions. Um, and then more recently [00:19:55] you mentioned Annie. Annie Seaborn, this this is a really interesting story. Um, we [00:20:00] don’t have a separate clinical team. We did, but my observation of a separate clinical [00:20:05] team and a separate operations team was they didn’t always talk to each other. So operations decisions were [00:20:10] made that should have had clinical input and they didn’t, or clinical decisions were made that should have had operational impact [00:20:15] input and they didn’t. And what you ended up with was things being launched into into practices [00:20:20] that didn’t work for what in whatever way. Yeah. So [00:20:25] we we effectively dismantled the clinical team and put different elements of the clinical [00:20:30] team in in business functions. That was part one. So for example, our clinical risk [00:20:35] team now sits as part of a wider risk team looking at all elements of risk, much more holistic [00:20:40] approach to risk. Um, our procurement team, [00:20:45] which was just a clinical procurement team, sat out there on their own while all the rest of our procurement, um, [00:20:50] and sort of, um, management of that kind of stuff was over here. They now sit as an integrated [00:20:55] procurement team, but we needed to make sure we still had a really strong [00:21:00] voice of the clinical community at our top table.

Mark Allan: So we created something which we’ve called the the [00:21:05] clinical advisory team. Um, and we didn’t quite know where this was going to go, but we advertised, [00:21:10] you know, do you want to be involved in this? And we advertised for a director of dentistry, [00:21:15] a head of hygiene and therapy, and a head of dental nursing. Um, and then [00:21:20] we’re interested in who else came out of the woodwork, put that advert out, and were overwhelmed [00:21:25] by the number of people who are who applied. Obviously some of them were nurses [00:21:30] and maybe come back to why we why we did that. But the hygiene and therapy community, the dentist [00:21:35] community, lots of people thinking this is an opportunity for me to to have a voice [00:21:40] and actually to start to learn some different skills. So we ran a number of assessment centres [00:21:45] where we whittled it down, made appointments in those roles. Um, they [00:21:50] are practising. So I didn’t want someone on our leadership team who wasn’t still [00:21:55] in surgery. So they still do at least a day a week in surgery, the rest [00:22:00] 2 to 3 days a week. Then they’re in these advisory roles. And we ended up appointing [00:22:05] a team of four. So Doctor Neil Sekhar is our, um, director of dentistry. And Annie, [00:22:10] who you’ve mentioned, uh, was so good in the, in the process that we thought, well, [00:22:15] we’ll create a role for, for Annie, head of general dentistry.

Mark Allan: So she works [00:22:20] kind of alongside Neil thinking about issues that face into our dentist population. [00:22:25] And then we’ve got, um, Caitlin and Amelia. Caitlin is our [00:22:30] head of hygiene and therapy. So she is now the senior voice of [00:22:35] the hygiene and therapy community in our business. And then Amelia is our head of nursing. [00:22:40] And so Neil sits on my executive team reports to me. And those three report to Neil. [00:22:45] So we’ve now got a voice of nursing, a voice of hygiene and therapy and two voices, two strong [00:22:50] voices of dentistry sat right alongside my executive team. Um, so [00:22:55] there’s going back to your original question. Where can I go? There’s just some routes, [00:23:00] and it’s a it’s a learning curve. It was really fascinating to me when I turned up at [00:23:05] some of these assessment centres, and they were done in our Staines office, um, [00:23:10] which is like a call centre where, you know, we sell the policies and we handle the calls [00:23:15] for private medical insurance. So we’re in a meeting room there. So if you like, this is this is territory. [00:23:20] This is a world that I’m very familiar with because I came from the insurance world. Yeah. And there’s a [00:23:25] room full of dentists. Let’s say there’s 50 dentists turned up to this assessment centre. And it was [00:23:30] really funny watching, um, watching the looks on the faces of the dentists, having just spent [00:23:35] six months walking around practices where I was the new, the new boy in an alien environment.

Mark Allan: Um, [00:23:40] and, you know, trying to understand what was going on and feeling a little bit intimidated by [00:23:45] the, the expertise that was everywhere. And then the dentists walk into the room in stains [00:23:50] and suddenly it’s flipped. Where? I’ve never done this before. What’s this executive stuff all about? [00:23:55] And we’re doing personality profiling with them or getting them to do, uh, role [00:24:00] play exercises. And it was it was brilliant. And from that, not only did we appoint the [00:24:05] four people in those roles, but we’ve now built a clinical talent pool. So that [00:24:10] or not, the nurses obviously aren’t self employed, but in the hygiene and therapy and dentist community, [00:24:15] we now have a pool of people who went for those jobs who are now in that pool. They’ve put their hand up and [00:24:20] said, I want to be, I want to be developed. I’m up for doing something a bit different, either younger [00:24:25] dentists or at a certain stage in their career where they’re ready to start thinking about other stuff, and we’re working [00:24:30] with them on certain projects and starting to look at how we can continue to build their skills. [00:24:35] So we’ve got go to people. So, um, that wasn’t where it started. But as, as, [00:24:40] as with anything, sometimes you do one thing and it opens up a whole world of other possibilities. [00:24:45]

Payman Langroudi: Do these people act as your sort of eyes and ears of the the board? Do they firefight [00:24:50] or do they actually get tactically involved with which direction the company should go?

Mark Allan: So the [00:24:55] for the clinical advisory team, the for the names that I mentioned, they have a number of roles. [00:25:00] So Neil for example will sit in my executive team. So whatever we’re talking about Neil will [00:25:05] be saying well hang on a minute that don’t be doing that because you need to think about this or this or this. Yeah. Um, [00:25:10] they have a role to play in building the community. And so it’s early days. They’ve only [00:25:15] been in role for about four months. But the vision for it is that, for example, Caitlin [00:25:20] talking to hygienists and therapists, she gives them a voice and starts to work at a [00:25:25] community where we’re getting two way communication going about what’s working, what’s not working, and [00:25:30] same with nursing. So they do some of that. They might be the face into the external market [00:25:35] for certain things. So with a trade association or with like you talked about. Um, Miranda. [00:25:40] Miranda from Miranda Steeples. Yeah. Caitlin would be building a relationship with Miranda [00:25:45] Steeple. So we’re tuned in there, and that’s way better Caitlin doing that than me trying to do it, because [00:25:50] I don’t. I’ve never done the job. I don’t I don’t understand. And then they will all have areas [00:25:55] of specialism or things they’re passionate about.

Mark Allan: So at any point in time they might have 3 or [00:26:00] 4 projects that we’re working on that they are a key advisor [00:26:05] council on. We try and make sure they don’t have to take too much work away. Their job [00:26:10] is not to go and, you know, be a project manager. That’s not what we want. We want their expertise [00:26:15] and guidance. And this concept of advisory committees is something we’ve really latched on to. So that’s [00:26:20] the most prominent. But we do have a Dental advisory committee which meets every quarter, which is a [00:26:25] bigger panel of dentists, hygienists, therapists where we’re taking bigger issues to them [00:26:30] and updating them on progress. And that’s a mixture of dentists from different, um, private [00:26:35] specialisms, NHS, different parts of the country. That’s really [00:26:40] useful for us. And we’ve also got a practice manager advisory committee. So [00:26:45] across our estate we’ve got all sorts of different types of dentistry business with different NHS [00:26:50] um regimes and different specialism referral sites, [00:26:55] general dentistry, NHS, other countries like Republic of Ireland. So we’ve got 15 [00:27:00] practice managers who sit on what’s called the Pmac Practice Manager Advisory committee, and [00:27:05] anything that touches the practice or that will touch the practice that we’re thinking about doing, has to [00:27:10] be signed off by the practice manager advisory committee, and sometimes it needs to go back three times [00:27:15] before we get them comfortable.

Mark Allan: Um, and it’s been it’s been a real change for us in [00:27:20] making sure that when something lands in practice, we have a high degree of confidence it’s going to work. So, [00:27:25] uh, yeah, I think we’re we’re a business that’s really listening, and we’re going back to being [00:27:30] a corporate. I think one of the risks in big business is the people like me sit there and make the decisions [00:27:35] and say, let’s go and do that now. But in a business like ours, that can be really dangerous [00:27:40] because it’s so different on the front line. So we’ve tried really hard to turn the business the [00:27:45] other way around. And me and my executive team, our we’re clear about [00:27:50] where we want to go and what we’re trying to deliver, both financially. Um, and [00:27:55] in terms of what we’re trying to build. But we can only do that if we take our people with us. And in [00:28:00] a business like this, the front line know exactly what we should do.

Payman Langroudi: Very true. [00:28:05] I mean, people underestimate the the challenge, right? Because the number [00:28:10] of people internally that you have to I mean, I remember [00:28:15] we were trying to find out. Who do we talk to in Bupa regarding getting enlightened [00:28:20] throughout? We’re in 70 of the practices. We want to get into 400 of them, let’s say. Yeah, hard [00:28:25] to find out. Yeah. Even even from Bupa people. Yeah. Hard to find out who that is. And to [00:28:30] start with, I was like, well, they’re not communicating. But then I looked up the numbers. I mean, what are the numbers? [00:28:35] What are the how many dentists work for you? How big is dental [00:28:40] insurance compared to medical insurance? Is it a growth space? Yeah. And then [00:28:45] what’s the practice numbers?

Mark Allan: Yeah. Okay. So let me give you some some stats. Yeah. [00:28:50] Um, haven’t got a crib sheet here. So these will be. These will be what I managed to be able to store in my head. So [00:28:55] if you start with Bupa Dental care as a dental practice business business, we have 380 [00:29:00] practices. Uh, ten labs. We have about 8000 [00:29:05] people across that network, of which roughly [00:29:10] 2200 are self-employed, uh, dentists, dentist, hygienists [00:29:15] and therapists. So that’s the kind of that’s the magnitude of it. [00:29:20] And we operate we operate across the UK and Republic of Ireland. Um, [00:29:25] and in most places. And you might not always recognise us because we’re not [00:29:30] always Bupa dental care above the door. Um, Total orthodontics is one of our brands, for example, [00:29:35] specialist orthodontic sites. If you look closely, it will say part of Bupa Smiles. [00:29:40]

Payman Langroudi: In Ireland.

Mark Allan: Smiles in Ireland, part of Bupa. Um, that one’s obviously green. [00:29:45] Um, yeah. We’re the the main Bupa brand is blue. Total orthodontics is [00:29:50] bright pink, blue black, bright green. And then we have platinum. We [00:29:55] call them platinum sites. Um, it’s sometimes leaks into the customer knowing it’s a platinum site, [00:30:00] but really it’s an internal. How many of them are there? Uh, about 30. Um, and [00:30:05] that’s where, um, it maybe was an acquisition that we, that we bought where [00:30:10] it made sense for us to, to leave the, the vendor’s name above the door because it had equity [00:30:15] in the local market, or you’re just in a market where it makes much more sense [00:30:20] to to to look different. Mhm. Um, so the branding on those [00:30:25] um is, is like grey and, and they’re called a multiple multitude of different [00:30:30] things. The Wessex Hospital Lane. Briar Wallace. Yeah. Uh, the Raglan [00:30:35] suite. I mean, we’ve got some amazing houses. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There’s [00:30:40] one. I was just looking at one yesterday, which I visited a few months ago, and Faizan, [00:30:45] who’s one of our regional clinical directors, had put on LinkedIn that he’d just been to the old church, which [00:30:50] is in Halifax. I don’t know if you’ve ever been up there.

Payman Langroudi: I know it well because our competitor. [00:30:55] Yeah.

Mark Allan: That’s right. Yeah. So I went there a few months ago and [00:31:00] walked in through the front door. Beautiful. Was that, like, took my breath away? Because it’s [00:31:05] just not what you expect. Yeah. And that’s that’s branded as the old church. Part [00:31:10] of the Bupa Group. Yeah. And stained glass windows even in the surgeries. And it’s amazing. So, [00:31:15] um, we’ve got a really unbelievable kind of [00:31:20] asset really across that. So that’s the makeup of our dental business. You mentioned [00:31:25] about the funding side. Yeah. So we or I think Harvard [00:31:30] Business Review or somebody coined the term provider. And a provider is someone who has both funding [00:31:35] and provision. So in the UK we’re pretty unique as being one of the only, if not the only [00:31:40] provider. We’re certainly the only provider in the dental market because we’ve got 400 [00:31:45] practices. Um, we’re the UK’s biggest B2B dental [00:31:50] insurer now. And so and the bulk of that market is now [00:31:55] sold to employers and employer. The growth in that business has been [00:32:00] roughly 30% a year for the last few years, which probably makes sense with [00:32:05] difficulties in NHS access. Um, So [00:32:10] yeah, that’s that’s huge. We’ve got about just shy of a million. We would call them funding customers. [00:32:15] So that would be either insurance customers or our own, um, legacy [00:32:20] plans. We’ve got, uh, like a dem plan where that still exists in our practices. [00:32:25] And we have our own subscription plans called the Bupa Smile Plan, which is growing really quickly. So [00:32:30] a million customers there and then probably about 2.5 million, [00:32:35] um, private medical insurance customers. Um, and that would be private individuals buying [00:32:40] private medical insurance.

Payman Langroudi: So private medical insurance is by a long way the biggest [00:32:45] part of the business.

Mark Allan: But the lion’s share of that, roughly 85% of that is company paid. [00:32:50] Um, and what you’re seeing, I think, and we probably have a fairly unique perspective [00:32:55] on this, is employers, especially since Covid, are [00:33:00] realising that they need to look after their people, perhaps differently to how they looked after [00:33:05] them before. And if they don’t, increasingly, an Unemployed down the road will do so. [00:33:10] The provision of private medical insurance or lighter versions of that to their whole workforce, [00:33:15] or things like dental insurance, but is incredibly valuable if you’re in a place where you can’t get an NHS [00:33:20] appointment and you’re struggling maybe to to to do pay as you go private, and then [00:33:25] your employer says, here you go, have a have a Bupa dental insurance policy, it’s [00:33:30] powerful. So for us, you know, as as we really start to think about the future, [00:33:35] the opportunity that exists for Bupa to connect the dots and start to unlock access [00:33:40] into that, those funding patients and get them to come to Bupa Dental [00:33:45] Care for a VIP service. And, you know, and a different kind of experience is really powerful. [00:33:50]

Payman Langroudi: Mark, when you took over dental, what was the brief [00:33:55] like when, I mean, what did they say to you?

Mark Allan: What did they say to [00:34:00] me?

Payman Langroudi: And why are you when I look on your LinkedIn, it says something about good at turnaround [00:34:05] and yeah, this What? What did you bring to it? Or what are you supposed [00:34:10] to bring to it?

Mark Allan: Yeah. Um, I think my LinkedIn probably [00:34:15] just says lots of words that mean lots of people are interested in what I’ve got to say. Maybe. Well, um, [00:34:20] who knows how true they are, but, um, what was the brief? So the brief is.

Payman Langroudi: It a promotion [00:34:25] from your perspective? Is that.

Mark Allan: No, absolutely. It was a promotion. So I my job before I came into [00:34:30] this role was I had the general manager job title, and I ran the business [00:34:35] side of the private medical insurance business.

Payman Langroudi: But that’s a giant, which is a much bigger business [00:34:40] than than this one.

Mark Allan: It is in financial terms. Yeah. Not as many people that you’re responsible for, but [00:34:45] and in our in the big corporate hierarchy, you know, great graded one layer below [00:34:50] the job that I do now. And I also looked after dental insurance and cash plan as well. [00:34:55] Yeah. So that was my my world. So anything that was employer paid that was an insurance product. My [00:35:00] team looked after that. Um, so I had some familiarity with with with [00:35:05] dental and I would liaise regularly with the Dental team that I now lead. As we [00:35:10] started to think about how we call it connected care. How do we make sure that when people buy a dental insurance [00:35:15] policy, we’re making it easy for them to use a Bupa dental care practice? So I was familiar. [00:35:20] I guess if you looked at my background, it’s been generally been big leadership jobs. [00:35:25] And I’ve probably, um, developed a track record that, um, [00:35:30] as someone who can engage people and get people going in a particular direction, whether that be growing [00:35:35] a business or trying to turn around a business, it always comes back to the people. It doesn’t matter where you [00:35:40] go, whatever you’re trying to do, you have to get your people to believe and want to go [00:35:45] where you’re going. So I knew I had that reputation and I’d probably been a bit of a nuisance, to be honest. [00:35:50] At Bupa, I want to do something different. I’m up for, I’m up for anything, and I like a challenge. [00:35:55] And so the opportunity came up to to come to Bupa Dental Care. So the brief [00:36:00] when I arrived was, um, Yeah, a bit of a bumpy ride, probably [00:36:05] for Bupa since we bought a quiet oasis, especially, um, many [00:36:10] of the people who are listening to this who are perhaps in other big corporates that are going through acquisition [00:36:15] and mergers. It’s hard because especially when you’re bringing different cultures together, and especially where you’ve [00:36:20] got 20 practices and you’re the acquirer, like, you know, David acquires Goliath [00:36:25] of Oasis so that, you know, that was a quite a difficult process, [00:36:30] I think, running through from very different cultures.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Very, very different cultures.

Mark Allan: Yeah. Um, and [00:36:35] through to say 2020, we were making progress on that. But it was hard and [00:36:40] it’s it’s just not an overnight fix, is it, to, to do that when you’re trying to change [00:36:45] cultures and then Covid happens. So that’s a really difficult.

Payman Langroudi: Must have been huge [00:36:50] for people in general.

Mark Allan: Yeah huge. And I mean I wasn’t I look back and think glad [00:36:55] I’m glad I wasn’t doing the job during Covid because it was really hard, you know, closing practices. [00:37:00] But even on the.

Payman Langroudi: Medical side, it must have been a Yeah. Gigantic.

Mark Allan: Yeah, yeah. Huge [00:37:05] and huge complexity around. Um, what do you do with the fact that you’re [00:37:10] not. People aren’t claiming. Um, because no one’s going out and you can’t get you [00:37:15] can’t get any treatment anyway because the hospitals are dealing with Covid patients. And so what do you do with that money? [00:37:20] All that kind of stuff was was complex.

Payman Langroudi: But I heard you guys actually gave back a bunch of money.

Mark Allan: Yeah, [00:37:25] well, we gave back all the excess profit. Amazing. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: To to consumers. Yeah. [00:37:30]

Mark Allan: And businesses? Yeah. And businesses.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Amazing.

Mark Allan: So and that’s [00:37:35] part of that’s we led the market with that. Everyone in a situation like that looks at Bupa and [00:37:40] says, right, what are we going to do. So you have a responsibility. Yeah. For the market we have a responsibility [00:37:45] for our brand. And yeah, we made that decision very early on and then everybody else followed. So we [00:37:50] weren’t alone in giving that excess profit back. Um, but in Bupa Dental Care, you’ve [00:37:55] been through that experience over 6 or 7 years. The business wasn’t performing as we would have liked [00:38:00] it to. Too. So, um. Yeah. Do you want to. There’s a job over there. I know you’ve [00:38:05] never done it before. Are you up for it? Yeah. Okay. And in [00:38:10] my background, I guess if you look through my LinkedIn profile, what you’d see is, although I’d been in insurance [00:38:15] a lot, pretty much most times I’d change jobs. I’d gone into something I’d never done before. [00:38:20] So there’s a period if you really looked hard in my LinkedIn profile, if you if you if you really [00:38:25] need, you know, some bedtime reading to get yourself to sleep. Um, there’s a there’s [00:38:30] a job in there where I was in an insurance business, and I went to run the central London region of [00:38:35] Barnard Marcus, which was the estate agency.

Payman Langroudi: And I saw.

Mark Allan: That. Yeah. And I was like 27. I [00:38:40] didn’t know anything about estate agency and I jumped into that. So this is actually quite [00:38:45] easy compared to, to doing that, especially at that at that young age. So I think, [00:38:50] um, if you.

Payman Langroudi: Want, what is it about you that makes you that cat?

Mark Allan: I don’t know. [00:38:55] I get bored quite quickly. Um, and I like a challenge and I like [00:39:00] building things, and I like, um.

Payman Langroudi: So give us give us some top tips then. [00:39:05] I mean, even from you could if you’re an associate in a, in a surgery, you’re a leader, [00:39:10] you’re a leader. You’ve got your nurse, you’ve got your reception team, you’ve got your customers, right? Your patients. [00:39:15] You are a leader all the way up to leading 8000 people. Give [00:39:20] us some top tips for people.

Mark Allan: I hate questions like this because it makes [00:39:25] it sound like I’ve got some some real wisdom, but I think the biggest thing for me that [00:39:30] I learnt, and I think some of it comes with age as well as you get older and just life experience [00:39:35] and maturity is you have to understand yourself [00:39:40] really well. So understand what you what, what you’re good at, what you’re not good at, what [00:39:45] you stand for, what your values are, self-awareness and be and be and be cool with that. [00:39:50] Yeah. And the faster you can do that, the better. So [00:39:55] I can remember many times, probably in the first 15, [00:40:00] 20 years of my career, up to probably the age of 40, where I could feel myself adapting [00:40:05] to be what somebody else wanted me to be. Not totally compromising [00:40:10] my values, but certainly not being authentic and being comfortable enough to disagree. You [00:40:15] know, someone more important than me said it said, that’s black. And I thought it was white. Oh yeah. Yeah, it’s black [00:40:20] because I thought that was the way to to progress was to please. Yeah. Um, other people, [00:40:25] in fact, I, a guy I’ve done some work with from a coaching perspective has written a book. And he asked [00:40:30] he asked me to write a chapter with this question, basically. And I wrote about this, which [00:40:35] is the importance of getting comfortable with your own skin as [00:40:40] fast as you can. Because when you’ve done that, firstly you know what you’re good at and what you’re not good at, [00:40:45] and then you realise what you need to put around you. Um, and you don’t. And you don’t [00:40:50] waste too much time thinking you’ve got to be perfect at everything. So going on development courses, because I’m not [00:40:55] this, but it’s just that’s just if I get really good at that or put too much effort in doing [00:41:00] that, I’m going to not play my super power, which is over, over here.

Mark Allan: So getting [00:41:05] really comfortable with that and getting ready. And then when you do that, becoming really grounded. So [00:41:10] one of the great things I love about this job is being able to go out and chat to the receptionists or the nurses, and [00:41:15] I can see their expectation when I turn up. You know, the boss is here, but straight [00:41:20] away asking them why they haven’t bought you biscuits and you know, what are they up to at the weekend? And, [00:41:25] and having a bit of trying to find an angle to have a joke with them, to show them that you’re just a normal person [00:41:30] like anybody else. That’s, that’s certainly been something that I think is probably why [00:41:35] they let me loose on a business with 8000 people. You know, we need someone who can not project [00:41:40] instructions from head office and think he’s right all the time. We need someone who’s going to go and be humble [00:41:45] enough to go out and want to learn and listen. So I guess encapsulated [00:41:50] in your in my answer to your question is it’s a bunch of stuff about Just relaxing, [00:41:55] working out what your superpowers are, knowing what you’re not good at, and [00:42:00] then trying to stay true to your values and realising that if you’re in a place that doesn’t value what you value, [00:42:05] you should go. And life’s too short to hang around. And so you need to go and find a [00:42:10] place where you feel comfortable. And you can you can be yourself. And that’s that’s true for, for for everyone. [00:42:15] I think you do your best work when you’re at your, you know, your most peaceful sort of state. Really. [00:42:20]

Payman Langroudi: So what are you not good at?

Mark Allan: What am I not good at? Oh, it sounds like you’ve [00:42:25] been with my team this week. They’ve been giving me a hard time.

Payman Langroudi: I’m terrible at a bunch of stuff, so. But [00:42:30] I was thinking, you know, I’ve got 40 people here. Yeah. And I have massive issues handling [00:42:35] 40 people. And you’re handling 8000? Yeah.

Mark Allan: Although 8000 [00:42:40] is a really big number, but I don’t think it’s that different. Once you get once you get to 40, 40. [00:42:45]

Payman Langroudi: 80, you.

Mark Allan: Just have to realise that you’re leading people who then need to lead, other people who they need to lead [00:42:50] other people. And how you set them up to do that is perhaps different. But let’s get back to what [00:42:55] I’m not good at. I was trying to change the subject. Um, I’d probably say a couple of [00:43:00] things. One is I’ve got better at this, but it’s still true. Is I think I’m right a lot. [00:43:05] Um, nothing wrong with that.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Mark Allan: So I’m [00:43:10] an only child, so maybe it might have come from come from some of that. Um, and [00:43:15] it takes a bit of time to, like, push me back off course if I’ve decided we’re going over [00:43:20] there. Um, that’s why you put advisory committees in and put governance in to [00:43:25] not let you. It stops you making silly decisions, even if you think you’re right. [00:43:30] Um, the other thing is I’m I’m I’m really curious, which is a good thing, [00:43:35] but the bad thing is it brings with it stuff to do. So if if my team were here, they would [00:43:40] tell you unanimously, very quickly, he needs to prioritise better. And he can’t keep saying, [00:43:45] oh no, we said we’re doing this. But I’ve just seen something else that I reckon we could do. It’s really exciting. Let’s [00:43:50] go do it. And and when you realise the impact that has on people at first [00:43:55] in terms of clarity and confusion, which way to go, but also the workload it can create. [00:44:00] So I have to watch myself on that and I’m working on that right now about how [00:44:05] do you just, um, maybe work in waves of activity rather than doing everything at [00:44:10] once? I saw a great, a great quote a few weeks ago.

Mark Allan: I think it was during the Second World War where they [00:44:15] were the Americans were trying to work out how they could come and help, and they had two choices. They could sprinkle their [00:44:20] troops in lots of different places. And so at my worst, I would [00:44:25] sprinkle troops in lots of different places and just believe will be amazing anyway. Or they could put [00:44:30] most of their troops or all their troops in northern France, and they put them all in northern France, because that was where [00:44:35] the crux of the issue was. And had they sprinkled them everywhere, we’d have lost the [00:44:40] war. So, um, I’m thinking about that a lot at the moment in just decisions about [00:44:45] do we do this? Do we do that? And in a place like Bupa, as I said earlier, there’s so many possibilities [00:44:50] for us right now about what we could choose to do. So just [00:44:55] making sure we pick the smartest ones first and execute them really well.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, how [00:45:00] far does your personal power go? I mean, could you suddenly suggest [00:45:05] to buy another 500 practices and Bupa could do it, right? Bupa could.

Mark Allan: Afford it.

Payman Langroudi: Bupa could [00:45:10] afford it. So so do you sometimes get that sort of feeling that, you know, you’re wielding a huge axe [00:45:15] here and you could make a massive change? Yeah. Convince the right.

Mark Allan: People. One of the things that is [00:45:20] great about Bupa and it perhaps doesn’t sit as consistently with your story. You [00:45:25] know, when you said it’s really hard to get something done when I want to, I want to do this and then it goes through all the bureaucracy. [00:45:30] Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. Well, one of the privileges of doing a job like this is [00:45:35] I have a mindset that I can do anything, I can do anything I want, and [00:45:40] I think it’s a good place to start from, because I can be pulled back from that rather than thinking I can’t do much and I [00:45:45] never get to the bigger ideas. So could I walk away from this meeting and go [00:45:50] back and tell my team? Right. Contact Christie and co. We want to. We’re [00:45:55] going to go and buy 500 practices. I could do that but I would [00:46:00] I would hit some governance quite quickly and I would probably get told to not [00:46:05] be so stupid. Um, because there’s so much opportunity with what we’ve got. But [00:46:10] yeah, with within pretty big boundaries. I can do a lot of things. So, [00:46:15] um, and who.

Payman Langroudi: Do you have to convince that the actual board of Bupa generally, [00:46:20] are you on that board?

Mark Allan: So, so well, if I wanted to do stuff that’s within my [00:46:25] remit, I have a long lead. I can do a lot of different things, but things [00:46:30] that require serious investment, um, that might take investment away [00:46:35] from other parts of the Bupa business. I would need to go and pitch for that just like anybody [00:46:40] else. I, I sit on the Bupa UK executive team. So around that table you’ve got [00:46:45] the general manager of the care homes business, the general manager of the clinic’s business, the general manager of the insurance [00:46:50] business and collectively we are running the UK business [00:46:55] and there’s finite resource, of course, of course there is. And so the best ideas [00:47:00] and the ones with the most confidence will win. Um, and if it was really big [00:47:05] then we would go to our group board. So my, my boss is the CEO of the UK. His [00:47:10] boss is the CEO of the group. Um, but just this week, actually, one of the reasons I was in [00:47:15] I was in Winchester was it was our group board, uh, strategy offsite there in [00:47:20] a room in Winchester for three days. So these are the non exec team and an exec team [00:47:25] that run the whole group. And we were in doing a UK showcase to them [00:47:30] of which the progress we’re making and how we’re changing. Bupa dental care was a key part of the presentation. [00:47:35] And these are Non-execs who’ve sat. Many of them have sat on the journey from 2016 [00:47:40] to where we are now. So it was really nice to see the optimism and the confidence that [00:47:45] they’ve got in where we’re heading and what we’re up to.

Payman Langroudi: And were you involved in the decision to sell [00:47:50] those practices? Was that your idea or. Yeah.

Mark Allan: That was my decision. [00:47:55] Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. So you talk about.

Payman Langroudi: So then this is kind of the opposite. Do you have to get approval [00:48:00] all the way to the top for that?

Mark Allan: I still have to get approval for that. Yeah, 100% because, [00:48:05] um, a big decision affecting a lot of people and, um, you [00:48:10] know, was probably going to be a high profile decision, which meant from a brand perspective, we needed to be very to [00:48:15] be very thoughtful. So yes, I couldn’t just decide to do that without some support, [00:48:20] but, um, the group’s supported me with that [00:48:25] as a, as an important thing that we needed to do to, to protect the future and unlock the [00:48:30] potential of the business. So. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so I guess that was a consolidation [00:48:35] move. Insomuch as I get in every practice you’re consolidating, right? You’re [00:48:40] making sure the practice is optimised. Yeah. It has the acquisition part of it [00:48:45] stopped completely. Like if I was someone trying to sell my practice. Yeah. Is Bupa not the right place to go? [00:48:50]

Mark Allan: Um, so it hasn’t stopped completely. If you’d have asked me a year ago, I would [00:48:55] have shut that conversation down quickly because we were dealing with, quite rightly, [00:49:00] with our focus on making sure that, um, we exited those practices and sold [00:49:05] those practices well and looked after the people affected really well. And it would have been it just our minds [00:49:10] were elsewhere. Yeah. Where we’re at now. Um, are we going to be highly acquisitive? [00:49:15] Probably not. There’s so much, um, potential [00:49:20] in the in, in our existing estate. And it must be true for, for most [00:49:25] dental firms. I’d imagine you walk in and there’s an empty room at the end of the corridor, or [00:49:30] you’ve got a lease break and you’ve only got three surgeries, and there’s one across the road that you could create. Six. [00:49:35] So I think our focus will be on making better use of what we’ve currently got and optimising [00:49:40] that. One of the beauties, though, about having this connected care concept with our insurance business [00:49:45] is we know where all those customers are and we know where that business is. So there [00:49:50] are undoubtedly elements of that, that insurance portfolio geographically, [00:49:55] where we have no presence, where if we had a presence, we could have a high degree of confidence [00:50:00] that we could we could grow. So, um, I think I would I would describe [00:50:05] us as being we’re absolutely in the market, but we’d be incredibly picky and choosy [00:50:10] and and we probably wouldn’t be as active as anybody else. But, um, it’s a good sign of [00:50:15] how the mood music has moved.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, it’s not just you that I was at the DSO [00:50:20] meeting in Spain, and pretty much everyone was saying the same thing. Um, [00:50:25] that I think there was there was a time where it was all about numbers of practices and [00:50:30] people were increasing their numbers, increasing the multiples, and selling those businesses on and [00:50:35] and the general conversation in the room was about consolidation and making [00:50:40] sure each practice is performing better, which it should be. Right. Yeah. And the thing you say about opportunity, [00:50:45] I mean, just in our little world, we could increase whitening in a practice. There’s [00:50:50] internal marketing is something that is being really ignored by a lot [00:50:55] of our colleagues. Yeah. Yeah. You’re you’re the subspecialty [00:51:00] of insurance that you’re from. Is that am I right in saying that’s kind of like a marketing [00:51:05] role?

Mark Allan: Uh, so my 23 years before [00:51:10] I came to, to, um, Bupa were with RSA insurance [00:51:15] and I would say I grew up as a generalist, so I was a graduate trainee, in [00:51:20] which case you get to learn loads of.

Payman Langroudi: Stuff all the way through RSA.

Mark Allan: I stayed there for 23 years. Yeah. Yeah. [00:51:25] And now I’ve done seven at Bupa. So the question is will I, will I make it to [00:51:30] the to the end in two companies. Who knows. But um, so you [00:51:35] they gave you a general experience. But I grew up in, in call centres in [00:51:40] RSA in a multitude of jobs, then then [00:51:45] had a dabble into PNL management with the estate agency piece that [00:51:50] I talked about. Then did some again big people leadership jobs so claim we [00:51:55] would call it claims operations. So all those people you can imagine in the big call centres on [00:52:00] the phone. So big people leadership jobs. And then the twist probably for me was [00:52:05] in about 2010, where again, with that track record of going into [00:52:10] alien environments, I went to do a B2B sales job, which I’d never done before. And then from [00:52:15] that became the MD of that, that business B2B. Um, and then that was probably what I [00:52:20] stuck with. So if you said what’s your I’m not a marketeer, but my marketing [00:52:25] team would tell you that they I think I am. Um, but they have to [00:52:30] tell me off a lot. No, no, I think that should be use a different picture. Um, but I’ve [00:52:35] got a largely a growth background with some turnaround stuff that I’ve done. [00:52:40] Um, but probably just a general, a person who’s acquired a toolkit of [00:52:45] of skills and knowledge, um, that we’re deploying at this moment in time [00:52:50] in, in Bupa dental care.

Payman Langroudi: So what keeps you up at night regarding Bupa dental care? [00:52:55] Like, what’s your. I can tell you mine.

Mark Allan: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Go, go. Go ahead. I [00:53:00] think about it for a second. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Go ahead. Yeah. Go ahead.

Mark Allan: I would say that, um. [00:53:05] I suspect I’m not alone in this. So I sit on the ADG, um, [00:53:10] board with the Association of Dental Groups. Yeah, the with the, the CEOs of the [00:53:15] big groups. And I think we’re all probably to in different ways thinking [00:53:20] about the same thing, which is, um, how do you keep growing your pool of dentists and [00:53:25] with a relatively finite pool, you’ve got to win market share. Basically, [00:53:30] you’ve got to get the dentists and the hygienists and the therapists to want to come and work for you more than somebody else, because there’s not [00:53:35] a flood of people coming in to.

Payman Langroudi: The pendulum swung kind of in favour [00:53:40] of associates. Yeah. You know, I having been in dentistry for 30 years, [00:53:45] there are times where the pendulum swings in favour of principles. Yeah. And then now there’s [00:53:50] a shortage. Right. And you see.

Mark Allan: It in different markets. So I was in Spain last week with our Spanish business. [00:53:55] Very different market over there. Plenty of dentists, plenty of dentists. So their their attitudes are quite different to how [00:54:00] they manage things. But do you reckon.

Payman Langroudi: Brexit has been a big factor for that?

Mark Allan: I [00:54:05] think there’s been all sorts of factors. Just, just I think life has changed for [00:54:10] people. Um, it always amazed me actually. I remember going to a practice and some of the dentists I’d met had been [00:54:15] like, yeah, I worked six days a week, and that’s that’s why I drive this car or whatever talking to [00:54:20] this dentist. Oh, how many days a week do you do? Three. Oh, right. You work somewhere else for [00:54:25] the other two? No. What? You only do three days a week. Why? Well, on Thursday I do [00:54:30] this on Friday. That’s my wellbeing day. Okay. So I think that, there’s [00:54:35] factors like that as well as the.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a lot of that. There’s a lot of that.

Mark Allan: Absolutely. In the, in the younger dentists or post-Covid [00:54:40] people having had a think about what they wanted from life. So there’s a whole set of dynamics. [00:54:45] So, you know, if you don’t have dentists, hygienists and therapists, you don’t have [00:54:50] any revenue because you can’t see any patients. So that’s probably the one that if you said instinctively, [00:54:55] which is the professional thing, that would, um, keep you awake at night and we’re [00:55:00] most thoughtful about is what do we need to do as Bupa? Why we go back to that? What does our brand [00:55:05] stand for in the dental market, and how we change that and make it really attractive [00:55:10] to people, as I want to go and work there because something’s going on over there that looks exciting. [00:55:15] Um, that’s probably the biggie.

Payman Langroudi: So in your [00:55:20] efforts to explain to the associates what you’re about [00:55:25] and you said, okay, personal development, CPD, stable nurse, [00:55:30] stable patients, what are you doing? I mean, okay, we’re here. We’re talking. Yeah. [00:55:35] Um. Yeah. How how does one talk to the Dental associate market and get [00:55:40] that through to them?

Mark Allan: Um. It’s hard, it’s hard, it’s hard. Yeah. [00:55:45] Um, and until this. We were relatively quiet last year for the [00:55:50] reasons that we talked about. We were we just didn’t think it was right that we were trying to say, [00:55:55] look, look how exciting Bupa dental care is. It wasn’t the right time. Yeah. This year things are different [00:56:00] and we think we’ve got an exciting story. Getting the opportunity to come and talk to you today obviously reaches [00:56:05] people and they get a feel for what we’re about and what we’re trying to do. Uh, we’ve [00:56:10] been talking to FMC and started to take a bit more of a profile in the dentistry magazine. [00:56:15] Our CPD events are great, and we get in huge attendance [00:56:20] from people who don’t work for us as well, and hiring people on the back of that. [00:56:25] The take up of those is really strong. Um, and we will continue [00:56:30] to do bolder things over the coming months to, to to to [00:56:35] get out there. Um, you know, the relationships with the BDA through the ADG, with [00:56:40] the dental schools were just the image I’ve got in my head. As I’m saying, it is our tentacles [00:56:45] starting to come out and be stronger. Um, and we’ve we’ve been very quiet. [00:56:50] I think probably for the last few years or, or the market didn’t really know what we stand [00:56:55] for, but it’s pretty simple, really. We’re trying to build a great dentistry business. Um, [00:57:00] and we’re bringing the power of Bupa behind it to, to fuel that, whether that be the way we look after [00:57:05] our people or the opportunity that it creates with all of that funding business sat behind it.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:57:10] have you looked at recruitment abroad?

Mark Allan: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: In Spain you might as well. Yeah. [00:57:15]

Mark Allan: If there’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Surplus.

Mark Allan: No, we’re absolutely active abroad. And we have people thinking about that, [00:57:20] um, as just one strand of of what we’re up to. It’s not straightforward. Um, [00:57:25] uh, and it’s and and it depends on geography, doesn’t it? It’s hard. You know, [00:57:30] We’ve still got some really difficult vacancies to fill in certain places, especially [00:57:35] if they’re NHS, um, vacancies. So we’re just [00:57:40] thinking through how how do we just stand out as being different. I think a different kind of corporate [00:57:45] that is offering a different kind of, um, experience that might not be for everyone, and that’s [00:57:50] fine. But if you want to be part of something where you’re really well looked after. Um, we talked [00:57:55] about the things that are important to dentists. Yeah. How you link funding and provision and create [00:58:00] amazing experiences for, for patients. Um, if you’re a dental insurance customer [00:58:05] of ours right now and you walk into our practice, you have your treatment, you walk out and it’s all taken care of. [00:58:10] No need to send the receipt off, no need to ring anybody. Direct settlement. Nobody [00:58:15] else can do that at the scale that we can do it. And that’s one of the reasons our dental insurance business has grown [00:58:20] so much. So I think, um, yeah, we I think [00:58:25] you can probably tell from the way I’m talking, we think we’re a force now, [00:58:30] and we’re starting to really gather some momentum. So that in itself and and [00:58:35] that brand and that that confidence that’s starting to come out, I think probably turns some heads and makes people [00:58:40] think I might not have considered Bupa in the past, but I think I would now. That’s what we want. And [00:58:45] for people to come and talk, talk to us.

Payman Langroudi: On this pod. We’d like to talk about mistakes, sort of from that [00:58:50] sort of black box thinking kind of way of. Well, with, with dentists [00:58:55] as well. You know, we tend to talk about clinical mistakes. Yeah.

Mark Allan: Haven’t got any of those. [00:59:00]

Payman Langroudi: Well I mean you could, you could, you could tell me an example of one that’s been made in the group. Um, [00:59:05] you don’t have to. Yeah, it can be whatever. What comes to mind when I say mistakes? What mistakes [00:59:10] have you made?

Mark Allan: I’d probably talk about two. I’ll come to a personal one in a sec. [00:59:15] But I think a mistake that we have probably made over the last [00:59:20] few years is where we started. Really? About this. Um, we know the answers. [00:59:25] So this is how we’re going to do things and everyone get on the bus. And [00:59:30] there are certain environments where you can do that. This isn’t one. And [00:59:35] that was you know, I think your first question was what? What did you learn quickly? Respect the front line. Respect [00:59:40] the job that goes on. Listen to what they’re telling you and make sure that you adapt your plans [00:59:45] accordingly. So I think some of the bumpy ride, probably that we had in those first few years was [00:59:50] partly to do with that. And I think I’m sure if we had our time over again or we did [00:59:55] a new acquisition, we would approach it very, very differently. Whoever [01:00:00] you’re leading, it’s never about you. And that’s probably just a really pivotal.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:00:05] think, you know, going going back to that thing about being a leader, you as a leader. I learned this the hard [01:00:10] way. You kind of got to watch what you say 100% and how you behave [01:00:15] in terms of, you know, just body language, just just acknowledging people [01:00:20] and, and the difference that makes and the damage you can do if you [01:00:25] do it wrong. Yeah. It’s huge. I mean, yeah, as a dentist, I remember I stopped practising a long [01:00:30] time ago, but when I was a dentist, I remember I used to say thank you to the nurse at the end of the day. Yeah. [01:00:35] Sounds like a pretty obvious thing to do, right? But the number of nurses who say, oh, no one ever says [01:00:40] that. And, you know, that’s just in a room.

Mark Allan: And it’s really important. It’s [01:00:45] really important. We had a situation yesterday. We do a monthly, uh, it’s called the Business Performance Committee. So [01:00:50] every month, me and my executive team present our results to to my boss and [01:00:55] some of the other peers that I’ve got around the table, like the FD. And yesterday we [01:01:00] took three people into the meeting from the the direct reports of my [01:01:05] team talking about pricing. Um, we were talking about patient finance and we [01:01:10] were talking about incentives. So three, three topics that we’re thinking about and working on and those [01:01:15] three people presented on the call. Now I go to that meeting every month, [01:01:20] sit around that table. No big deal. But I could see they all look nervous and it would be really easy [01:01:25] to just let that go. And it would be really easy just to say, um, thanks, [01:01:30] but we use Microsoft Teams, so it actually works really well. [01:01:35] That thing pops up on someone’s screen rather than an email that might get lost in a trail. But [01:01:40] just writing three very specific thank yous to Sarah [01:01:45] is our pricing, um, manager Sarah. Amazing. Amazing job. [01:01:50] Your confidence came across really strongly. You were really commercial in this bit here. [01:01:55] Loved it. And just the realisation that [01:02:00] you have the power by being thoughtful and taking the time to do that is huge. [01:02:05] So. And the.

Payman Langroudi: Opposite. Right? If you hadn’t have taken the time to do that, she wouldn’t have known. She wouldn’t have [01:02:10] known.

Mark Allan: I wonder what? And actually, you do realise if you leave a vacuum, people often assume, oh, [01:02:15] Mark wasn’t very happy with that. Otherwise he would have, he would have. He would have thanked me. The [01:02:20] most profound thank you example I’ve seen which I try and do, but I’m not as good at it [01:02:25] as I as I would like to have been. There’s a guy called Martin Neary I saw present, who was the director of [01:02:30] prisons years ago, and then was chief exec of Barnardo’s. I saw him speak, and every Friday [01:02:35] he would he would have in his drawer, in his desk. He would have some really nice paper [01:02:40] and some really nice envelopes not branded. And he would spot things during the week that he [01:02:45] saw people doing that were in line with what he wanted to see happen, and he would handwrite a letter [01:02:50] to them on a Friday, put his own stamp on it, and he would do it. So it arrived on a Saturday. [01:02:55] So I started to do that. And people you still see, people they carry, they carry around the letter in their bag with [01:03:00] them.

Payman Langroudi: I got one of those from a principal in 97. I’ve still got it. Yeah, I’ve still [01:03:05] got it. It makes such a big difference.

Mark Allan: The fact you took the time. Exactly. It’s dead easy to say thanks or [01:03:10] thumbs thumbs up on an email. But even if you take the time to say specifically what it was you liked [01:03:15] about it, and then. And also you might want to if you if you’ve got a good enough relationship and [01:03:20] actually give me a shout. I’ve just thought of something you might be able to do to make it even better next time. That’s where you’ve really [01:03:25] cracked it. That’s that’s not as easy as the nice things. But yeah, it’s a [01:03:30] it’s a big responsibility having being a leader. And you’re right, people are watching you all the time. [01:03:35] Your body language, what you say.

Payman Langroudi: I’m going to ask you another question. Now I’ve asked this question several times of, [01:03:40] you know, clinicians. And it’s a very unfair question. But if [01:03:45] you had to think of an aha moment. What was [01:03:50] an aha moment for you in terms of leadership? What happened? [01:03:55]

Mark Allan: Cool. I’ve never been asked that question before. And [01:04:00] you kind of have to go with the first thing that leaps into your mind, don’t you? I think [01:04:05] it was certainly a very early trigger, whether it was an aha moment, I [01:04:10] don’t know. I remember working for somebody years ago who was a big influence when I was a graduate trainee. [01:04:15] She kind of took me under her wing and I would I was like her e I’d go around with a go [01:04:20] to meetings, watch what she did, and she said to me, we were driving back along the M62 [01:04:25] and this is about 1996 years ago. And she was just chatting and she said [01:04:30] to me, you’re, you’re going to be a really great leader because people really like you. And [01:04:35] I didn’t think anything of it. But for some reason I remember that. And [01:04:40] I think that’s pretty true. I don’t think I’ve got too many enemies out there, but actually when you [01:04:45] realise that’s that’s that’s powerful to know that, because if you [01:04:50] can then realise people naturally are drawn towards you, then you can really engage with them on [01:04:55] a different level and you can help their understanding of what you’re trying to do. They’ll give you the time. So that’s probably [01:05:00] the one I’d I’d pick. And it’s true not just with people you lead. It’s true. It’s so true in teams. So [01:05:05] many teams that you work with or suppliers you’re dealing.

Payman Langroudi: With or, you know, they [01:05:10] say dentists never get sued by a patient that likes them or whatever, whatever they do, you know, [01:05:15] and it’s a massive issue with young dentists right now that worried about being sued. [01:05:20] Yeah, it’s a huge worry for them. It’s the number one thing. Yeah. And my advice always is, you know. Okay. You’re [01:05:25] inexperienced. You know, you don’t know the clinical as much as you will in ten years time. Yeah. But [01:05:30] if you can be nice to people. Yeah.

Mark Allan: And kind and.

Payman Langroudi: Kind and from a clinical perspective, [01:05:35] don’t hurt them. Yeah. So there’s a thing with a painless injection.

Mark Allan: Yeah. [01:05:40] And it doesn’t mean you go out of your way to want to be liked all the time. But if if [01:05:45] there’s this underlying piece, which is you can connect with people, they [01:05:50] warm to you. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then even if the worst thing happens clinically, [01:05:55] those patients don’t sue. Yeah. Because they think, you know, you’re a kind person who is doing your best. And then you [01:06:00] get the opposite, where you get a technical dentist who’s very good at actually [01:06:05] the teeth, but hasn’t got that EQ piece. Yeah. And get [01:06:10] sued. Yeah. You know, and it’s important thing to understand, you know, that that EQ [01:06:15] part of it.

Mark Allan: Yeah. And everything’s about people. Even with all of the [01:06:20] developments around AI, it’s still about people, because whatever you do with that has [01:06:25] got to be able to be used by people and and embraced by people. [01:06:30] So, um, yeah, that would probably be my, my aha moment. I think along along with [01:06:35] many others, I’m sure if I really thought about it.

Payman Langroudi: Talking of AI, I’m [01:06:40] sure there’s massive laws around what you guys can and can’t do with with the medical [01:06:45] notes, right? Yeah. But is is that I mean, the data that you guys have [01:06:50] as a company must be gold to, to train a [01:06:55] model. Is that a conversation you guys are having?

Mark Allan: Well, certainly when I talk about the, the, [01:07:00] the power of Bupa, which is the way we how do we bring the power of Bupa to fuel the [01:07:05] Dental business? Um, the data and our data capability would undoubtedly [01:07:10] be be one. Yeah. One of those things, um, clearly, Uh, going [01:07:15] right back to when we talked about things like GDPR and data security. That’s got to be done very responsibly, [01:07:20] of course. And, um, but of course we’re looking at data [01:07:25] that I mentioned. I know where the, the people who claim on the Dental insurance [01:07:30] are. Yeah. Now, I might not have marketing access to them, but [01:07:35] I might have marketing access to them. Um, so used responsibly. [01:07:40] Data for Bupa is a is a really big, um, uh, priority. [01:07:45] And I suppose this is where you start to get the power of being part of a big group, because the investment we [01:07:50] can put into that and being a provident association without short term [01:07:55] demands on our returns, we can make big bets on that. So [01:08:00] it’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Very unique position.

Mark Allan: Yeah. It’s powerful. And yeah, just to give you an example, um, I [01:08:05] met when we were chatting before I mentioned I’d been in San Francisco. I was in San Francisco going behind [01:08:10] the scenes at Netflix, LinkedIn, meta, and On Amazon and talking to VCs out [01:08:15] there and seeing what they’re doing with generative AI, spatial computing, which I didn’t really understand [01:08:20] until I got there. But VR headsets and what that can do. On Monday, my team [01:08:25] and I were with Microsoft in their generative AI lab, talking to them about how [01:08:30] this potentially revolutionary touches maybe everything, whether [01:08:35] it’s the diagnosis or note taking or just the back office stuff, [01:08:40] and you’ve got people in there working for Microsoft who are using just co-pilot. And [01:08:45] these are just executives, not not clinical people, but they’re saying they’ve got a day, a half [01:08:50] a day, a week back of their time already with fairly amateur use of co-pilot with [01:08:55] where it’s at, just because they’re not hunting around for stuff. If you’ve used ChatGPT, [01:09:00] um, instead of using a standard search engine. Now, [01:09:05] if you ask a good question, the amount of time it saves you from hunting through pages and pages comes [01:09:10] back with a great example is really powerful. So yeah, that’s high on our on [01:09:15] our agenda. And um, I think you would probably see us invest in that before [01:09:20] going and buying 500 more practice practices. Sure.

Payman Langroudi: Sure.

Mark Allan: So yeah, [01:09:25] we’ll.

Payman Langroudi: Come to the end of our time. I’m gonna end it with the usual questions [01:09:30] to fantasy dinner party. Yeah. Three [01:09:35] guests. Three guests. Dead or alive.

Mark Allan: Dead or alive. Who do you have? Um, cam, one [01:09:40] of the guests. Be a couple. I just was wondering about the rules here. So the first [01:09:45] one, um, I would invite my nan and grandad, um, back, and, [01:09:50] hey, be amazing to see them. But I look back and think [01:09:55] I didn’t ask them any questions. Really. I didn’t understand what it was like to live through the Second World War. [01:10:00] My nan grew up in East London and was an evacuee. Went to Peterborough, [01:10:05] which is, you know, had that not happened, I wouldn’t be here because that’s where I’m from. And my granddad [01:10:10] fought in the war and just I’m fascinated by that whole period and what people went [01:10:15] through. And we’ve got no idea. I think when we moan about things, what it was like then. So I’d love to have them just so [01:10:20] that we could get them to tell some stories about what it was really like.

Payman Langroudi: I was, I was in, um, Canterbury [01:10:25] Cathedral and a guy came up to me, it was clear he was a volunteer, [01:10:30] and he said he was 88 and remembers large [01:10:35] bits of Canterbury being flattened. Yeah. And you don’t think of it as I [01:10:40] mean, you see it on Gaza or something, but you don’t think of the UK as being flattened? No. And large [01:10:45] bits of the UK were flattened.

Mark Allan: Yeah. So they would be there. Uh, I think I’d [01:10:50] probably invite Barack Obama. I’m not really sure why, [01:10:55] but I think I’d probably. I’d really like to see the way he worked the table, because he’s just so smooth and, [01:11:00] you know, he walks in a room and everyone knows he’s there, but he doesn’t come across as just a groundedness. [01:11:05] So I think I’d pick him And I.

[TRANSITION]: Think.

Mark Allan: I would pick Rory [01:11:10] McIlroy. Um, because I’m fascinated. I find him [01:11:15] fascinating as well. Absolute genius, but vulnerable. Yeah. And publicly vulnerable. [01:11:20] And I feel I feel really drawn to to him. If you did a [01:11:25] video call with me, you’d see on my wall behind me, like different sporting people. And I couldn’t work out. There were [01:11:30] just people that I wanted to watch them on TV when when it came on and stop everything. And Rory [01:11:35] is one of those. But they’re all people who are, like, slightly flawed geniuses. They’ve got something. [01:11:40]

Payman Langroudi: Alex Higgins. Yeah.

Mark Allan: He’s not on there. But. Jemmy. Jemmy white. Jemmy white would be. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:11:45] So, look, you must be incredibly busy. But if you did have an afternoon to yourself. [01:11:50] I’m talking to yourself. No. No wife, no kids.

Mark Allan: No, no. No obligation, no obligation. [01:11:55] I’ve got to say the right thing. Yeah. What would you. What would you do? Oh. Good [01:12:00] question. It’s [01:12:05] a really good question, because you don’t [01:12:10] get that much time to actually have the luxury of being able to, to, to, to do that. [01:12:15] I think I’d either do one of two things. I would I would go and play golf [01:12:20] on my own, quite happy to go and just like me versus the course, [01:12:25] just relax or I would go to somewhere I’ve been on holiday [01:12:30] and just sit by the pool with a drink and a book and have [01:12:35] a sleep and read a bit of the book and listen to something on some music or something [01:12:40] and just chill.

Payman Langroudi: So look, for instance, if you go to San Francisco for work, is [01:12:45] your diary chock a block hour by hour, or [01:12:50] can you walk off and see a bit of San Francisco?

Mark Allan: So it was pretty chock a block [01:12:55] that week. That was a one week trip to Seattle and San Francisco with all of those companies built in. So it was daytime. [01:13:00] All right.

Payman Langroudi: But can’t you say, look, I want one day before and one day after, or is that.

Mark Allan: Is that not.

Payman Langroudi: The way it works? [01:13:05]

Mark Allan: 100%. I could have I could have flown out on the Friday, not the Sunday. Oh, you could have. I could have done. Yeah. [01:13:10] And, uh, but it meant being away from home for longer. My, my wife and [01:13:15] I were trying to work out whether she on the way back, could she fly to New York? Could I fly to [01:13:20] New York? And maybe we could have 3 or 4 days in New York? Yeah. Um, and my wife [01:13:25] and I were looking at civil when we went to spend time with Sunita’s last week, and it [01:13:30] sounds great. Come out. Um, but we never, never can make it work. [01:13:35] And, yeah, I don’t think I’d go and do it on my own. I think I would probably that would be pushing it a [01:13:40] bit far. Half a half a day, I reckon I’d get, I’d get permission for. [01:13:45] I’ve just been got an invite yesterday from, uh, Pacific Health in [01:13:50] the US, um, who we know, and we’ve been talking to a lot. And there’s a, there’s some conference [01:13:55] going on in Tuscany, and I’ve sent me this invite. We would love you to come to this [01:14:00] thing about five days in this Tuscan villa, and you just get treated like royalty, but [01:14:05] it’s this. I think it’s the same week as the, um, Bupa Global Senior Leaders Conference and [01:14:10] the Straumann CEO conference. Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:14:15] I mean, look, I saw how difficult it was to get you here for an hour. Yeah, yeah. So, [01:14:20] see, you’re very, very busy. Final question. It’s a deathbed question. Yeah. On [01:14:25] your deathbed, surrounded by your loved ones. Hopefully, by that time, great [01:14:30] grandchildren or whatever it is. Yeah. What are the three pieces of advice you’d leave them?

Mark Allan: Uh, [01:14:35] the the first one we’ve kind of got into [01:14:40] a little bit earlier. So, uh, try and make [01:14:45] sure you spend time trying to get to know yourself for sure. I think it’s incredibly [01:14:50] powerful. Um. Uh, I don’t know if this is the right [01:14:55] phrase, but perfection is the enemy of progress. Something like that. I see, too, [01:15:00] and I was guilty of this. I see too many people striving for perfection. You. You [01:15:05] don’t get anywhere and be kind. Be kind to yourself. I think those [01:15:10] those three things would be probably what I’d pick. Brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much for doing [01:15:15] this.

Mark Allan: It’s been a massive honour. I’ve really enjoyed it. That’s great.

[VOICE]: This is [01:15:20] Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with [01:15:25] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:15:30] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:15:35] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge [01:15:40] thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and [01:15:45] what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some [01:15:50] value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this with [01:15:55] a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And [01:16:00] don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Doctor Marina Rohde onto the podcast. Marina [00:00:05] is a dentist who’s had kind of a blessed career. Um, going straight [00:00:10] into private cosmetic practice, straight out of it in some of the most [00:00:15] iconic practices in, in the country. Um, thanks for coming, Marina. [00:00:20] Thanks for.

Manrina Rhode: Having me.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a pleasure. Um, really, sometimes there’s a burning [00:00:25] question that I want to ask straight away. And if I don’t ask it straight away, then, um, [00:00:30] the whole podcast, I’m trying to get to that question and I’m on edge, so I just [00:00:35] want to go straight into the burning question and then and then we can go back and do the you can’t wait.

Manrina Rhode: To hear what you [00:00:40] would be burning to hear about me.

Payman Langroudi: For me, the, [00:00:45] you know, the veneer dentist, which which I mean, I know that’s not a very [00:00:50] nice way of putting it here, but but someone who does a lot of veneers, um, must [00:00:55] have seen loads of failures over the years, especially someone who’s been in them as long as [00:01:00] you. Um, so have you changed in a big way? What’s [00:01:05] the thing you’ve changed the most when you look at the way you do veneers now, compared to [00:01:10] maybe some of the ones that you’re seeing come back from 20 years, 20 odd years ago, you were doing them, right? [00:01:15]

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. It’s a constantly evolving process, and it’s one of those I think [00:01:20] it’s the most complex thing we do in dentistry, because there are so many things that can go wrong at so [00:01:25] many stages during that process. And not only that, you’re dealing typically with quite an emotional [00:01:30] individual who’s having, um, a procedure that they’ve opted to have rather than what’s [00:01:35] something that they need. So there’s a lot of different layers in that. Um, and throughout [00:01:40] my 22 years in clinical practice and 21 of them, the treatment [00:01:45] I’ve done most often is porcelain veneers. That’s what that’s what I will do every day. Um, there have been so many [00:01:50] things that have gone wrong, and every time one of those things goes wrong. Um, I think [00:01:55] I need to put systems in place to prevent this from happening again. And then my my systems evolve. [00:02:00] And that was part of my, my want to be an educator within dentistry Because. [00:02:05] Because I learned way too much from all the stress and all the dramas that happened along the way. [00:02:10] And I needed to share it with someone or as many people as possible, because far too many people give up [00:02:15] these procedures because of these things. So I guess what you want is the gritty. You know, this wouldn’t be a burning [00:02:20] question without the actual examples. Tell me the main.

Payman Langroudi: Difference, the main difference between the way you handle [00:02:25] a big case now, I think compared to, let’s say, 15 years ago. Yeah.

Manrina Rhode: Well, I mean, [00:02:30] it’s been an evolving process. When I started treating porcelain veneers. So I started [00:02:35] in 2003 after my vocational training year, and that used to do a mad amount at at London Salon [00:02:40] and have done since, um, we didn’t believe in minimally invasive dentistry. We didn’t [00:02:45] have any issues with with elective root canal treatments. Um, it wasn’t it wasn’t a thing [00:02:50] like you just said, saw the patient. You worked out what what design you needed to do to get them the treatment they wanted. [00:02:55] Pre alignment. Orthodontics wasn’t a thing. Dentists doing [00:03:00] dentists doing orthodontics wasn’t really a thing. You know, I went on one of the first Invisalign courses [00:03:05] in 2004, but it was one of the first. I think it started in 2002. And [00:03:10] there’s obviously so many other alignment systems. We used to use the Inman Aligner a lot and various other systems [00:03:15] along the way. So it was very commonplace to say to a patient, um, this is [00:03:20] this is the problem. You know, if you want straight teeth, I’m going to have to fill your canines, your, you [00:03:25] know, your your central. You’re going to have this many root canals. You can go and have them done with the endodontist before I [00:03:30] even start, so that we wouldn’t have stress and pain while we went through the procedure. Like I look back at that now and [00:03:35] think that’s completely different from the way we practice now.

Manrina Rhode: I don’t want to cut anyone’s teeth, you know, [00:03:40] I’m keeping it as minimal as I can. I’m encouraging everyone to have pre alignment, even the smallest bit of pre [00:03:45] alignment so that I don’t need to prep their teeth so that we don’t have sensitivity and we don’t have issues and people don’t end [00:03:50] up needing root canal. It’s a completely different way of thinking. Um so there was that. And then there’s also [00:03:55] um, gingival contouring. Um, I’ll routinely contour my, my patients gingival [00:04:00] and I always have done. But as part of the smile makeover process and [00:04:05] I don’t refer to periodontists, I like to control that myself and do it myself. And back in the day [00:04:10] when I used to do that, um, you know, the belief was that we could just take a [00:04:15] scalpel or take an electrosurgery or a laser or whatever we were using at the time, and just remove [00:04:20] gum and, um, we, we were invading biological width, but that the bone [00:04:25] would adapt to three millimetres, you know, where the biological width needed to be on average [00:04:30] in response to my treatment, and everything would be fine. There was no need to remove bone, you just remove that gum, [00:04:35] put a veneer on it and everything would be fine. And what was interesting about that, because I’ve got my own case studies [00:04:40] to show whether that works or not.

Manrina Rhode: Um, because that’s how we did things. Um, nine [00:04:45] out of ten and we did so many of them, nine out of ten of them were okay, but one out of ten of [00:04:50] them weren’t okay. And they would come back with big, swollen, red, angry gums. [00:04:55] Um, where the gum had started growing over their veneer and even one out of ten [00:05:00] was not good enough because patients having these elective treatments and spending all this money and now their [00:05:05] gums bleed every time they smile at someone, um, was a mess. And so, um, I did, [00:05:10] uh, did things that way probably until 2008. So for about five years and [00:05:15] then started seeing too many people coming back with issues and started realising I needed to learn conventional crown lengthening [00:05:20] surgery and then obviously evolved and did that. And that’s evolved now. Now I’ve got my water [00:05:25] lays, which I love. And so now, rather than lifting a flap and removing [00:05:30] bone and sewing the gum back down and having these red angry gums, um, [00:05:35] now I just take my laser laser off the gum, put my water laser under the gum, remove bone. There’s [00:05:40] no blood, there’s no stitches. There’s no downtime. They say you don’t even need anaesthetic. And it’s completely [00:05:45] changed the way. The way I practice.

Manrina Rhode: Um, the talk about the water laser. I mean, that’s been [00:05:50] just an amazing bit of kit. Um, removing veneers was always a bit of drama. You [00:05:55] know, inevitably you’d remove some tooth tissue during that process, or maybe create, uh, like [00:06:00] a groove in the tooth trying to get that, that veneer off. Whereas now with my water layers, I just laser [00:06:05] over the tooth, over the veneer, and the veneer just falls off whole in one piece, in one piece. It’s amazing. [00:06:10] I removed veneers for a patient last week. It’s the first time I’d done it this way. [00:06:15] Um, she had no prep veneers that she hated. And because there were no prep. I mean, you really do need [00:06:20] at least a gingival margin prep. Um, they were quite bulky at the gum margin, and she, she’d created [00:06:25] the, you know, these, these inflamed gingiva. She was really unhappy and she, these ledges. And so [00:06:30] she was like, I just want them off. I know they’re no prep. Just take them off. And I was like, I mean, I can’t confirm they’re [00:06:35] no prep, but if you want me to use my water laser and take them off for you, I’ll take them off. Um, and I just water glazed, all [00:06:40] covered ears off and underneath her smile just went back to what it was, uh, prior to having veneers.

Payman Langroudi: Did you did you go around [00:06:45] the margin? Yeah.

Manrina Rhode: You go. It’s a process. You go, you put the laser on the right settings, you go around the [00:06:50] margin and then you go horizontally, and then you go vertically vertically. And you can go over the veneer twice [00:06:55] and then see if it pops off and if it’s old, if it’s iMacs, if if it’s zirconia, [00:07:00] you’re going to have issues. If it’s old cement, you’ll be fine. If it’s new cement, you might have issues. [00:07:05] Um, and and then typically it will just pop off with, with, you know, flick off. You [00:07:10] wouldn’t want to go over it more than twice because you could be causing some heat there, which inadvertently could cause, [00:07:15] uh, inflammation of the pulp. So we go over it twice. If it just pops off there, then that’s great. [00:07:20] If it doesn’t, then if I put a slit in the veneer, typically at that stage it will pop off the traditional way. [00:07:25] Kind of. Yeah, but it’s easier, much, much easier. So exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I see okay. [00:07:30] How long have you been doing that?

Manrina Rhode: Um, I bought my water lays, um, a year and a half ago. [00:07:35]

Payman Langroudi: And do you use it for prepping? You don’t do many back teeth. [00:07:40] Is it something you can prep fillings with as well? Yeah.

Manrina Rhode: So people have it in, [00:07:45] um, paediatric care for paediatric care because you can use it to remove decay without using [00:07:50] a drill.

Payman Langroudi: And what would you say is the learning curve for that? Is it is it quite easy to pick up. Oh, [00:07:55] it was a.

Manrina Rhode: Horrible learning curve. Really. Yeah. That was something just recently which was like a big drama in [00:08:00] dentistry. Like the learning curve was, oh, it was so stressful because I’d been doing my own conventional [00:08:05] surgical gum lifts. Um, for I haven’t had an issue with veneer removal yet. [00:08:10] I’m sure I will at some point that someone will will end up, you know, devitalised I’ll end up revitalising a tooth. I’m trying [00:08:15] to follow the instructions very carefully and never run over a tooth more than twice and let patients [00:08:20] know about the risks. And so the veneer removals being okay. Up until now, I’ve done a fair a fair [00:08:25] number. Now at this stage, um, but with the surgical gum lift, um, I had, like, real drama [00:08:30] at the beginning because I wasn’t it was difficult to know how powerful the laser [00:08:35] was, and especially when you’re removing bone because the laser doesn’t cut by touch, right? You [00:08:40] keep the laser about a millimetre away from the gum tissue or away from the bone, and then you need to hover [00:08:45] and and it cuts. And so with the gum you can see it cutting. And with bone you can’t. [00:08:50] So you just need to keep a really steady hand movement blind. It’s a bit blind. And you [00:08:55] know, if you cut, if you leave it there for too long, then it can cut too much.

Manrina Rhode: And it was all a bit dramatic [00:09:00] and that I had my first issue with that fortunately. Well, fortunately on, on a, on a patient that [00:09:05] I was using as a teaching patient to, to show other dentists how I do things. And [00:09:10] so at least he knew that he was kind of in, in a learning environment. Um, but where, where [00:09:15] we ended up cutting away too much, um, bone and gum, and then the gum and bone went too high. [00:09:20] Um, in response to to that. And then I was just traumatised. And that’s [00:09:25] the thing with dentist dentistry, right? Like, you know, we’re dentists. We know, like, you know, you do something and then it goes wrong [00:09:30] and then you’re a bit traumatised and you just don’t want you don’t want to do it again. And that’s been something that I’ve had to [00:09:35] push through throughout my career because, you know, a thousand things have gone wrong in the sort of procedures that I do. And every [00:09:40] time I’ve had to, like, reason it in my head and that’s that. Now we’re talking mindset, um, of being like, [00:09:45] okay, this has happened. Let’s try and understand why it’s happened. It’s not because I’m a rubbish dentist, because I’m not.

Manrina Rhode: I’m an excellent dentist [00:09:50] and I try and do my very best, um, at every stage it’s gone wrong because, I don’t know, I [00:09:55] need further training. Let me try and understand what went wrong here. How can I make sure it doesn’t happen again? And so yeah, [00:10:00] I actually booked myself onto a waterless course in Dubai. That was the next course that was available in the world. [00:10:05] I was meant to be lecturing in the UK the week that the the waterless course was on, and [00:10:10] although I’d already been on these courses prior to buying the machine, I felt so nervous about about using the machine again [00:10:15] until I’d had more education. I contacted the people, the conference where I was meant to be lecturing and [00:10:20] said, could you find a replacement lecturer? I need to go to Dubai because I need to go on this course. And that seemed very bizarre. [00:10:25] And I, you know, I like, like to think of myself as someone that’s very reliable and doesn’t cancel [00:10:30] these things. And if I told you I’m going to talk, I’m going to talk. But I just was so important to me to make sure that I had [00:10:35] a better understanding before ever touching the machine again.

Payman Langroudi: But explain it to me. You used the laser [00:10:40] to obviously to push the gum up and then cut the gum. Cut the gum. But but then. [00:10:45] And then what? You can see, you can’t see the burn. You just go into the gingival pocket kind of thing.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. [00:10:50] So you mark on uh, you mark two millimetres on the laser, on the actual laser [00:10:55] itself, like, with a little black line. And then you know that the laser is going to cut one millimetre away from [00:11:00] where you put it, and then you just take it along the gingival. You cut the gingival first to where you want it. [00:11:05] So, you know, when we do a conventional gum lift, then we cut the gingiva to where we want it. We measure the tooth, we [00:11:10] add three millimetres, we lift the flap. Then we measure the bone to where that three millimetres is [00:11:15] and remove it. Now instead of that you remove the gum to the position that you want it. Put the gingival [00:11:20] zenith, put everything where you want it. You can show the patient it because it looks great at that stage and say this is what we’re doing. [00:11:25] And then you mark two millimetres on your, on your laser bur or. [00:11:30] Yeah. And um, and then you, you, you put it underneath [00:11:35] perpendicular. You guys can’t see me but you put it on, you know, parallel. Sorry. Not perpendicular. [00:11:40] Parallel to the tooth.

Payman Langroudi: Like a period probe.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, like a period probe under the gum. And [00:11:45] then just very slowly at uniform speed, take it, put it up to the black line [00:11:50] you’ve created. So you know you’ve got two millimetres. How far are you going. Yeah. Underneath the gum. And then [00:11:55] it’s going to cut at three millimetres. And you just slowly go along keeping.

Payman Langroudi: Your hands very.

Manrina Rhode: Still steady [00:12:00] and follow the gum margin. Your hands are steady because you’ve just cut the gum with this very steady hand. And then [00:12:05] after you’ve done that there’s a few different settings that you do which have different strengths of like, first of [00:12:10] all, removing the bone, going in and out and removing bone, then using another setting to smooth [00:12:15] off what you’ve just removed. And then you could take a probe and you can have a feel and check that there’s no spikes or anything there that feels [00:12:20] like.

Payman Langroudi: And then is there some sort of radio radiographical verification as well? Do you take an x ray to see [00:12:25] your.

Manrina Rhode: I don’t typically, but yeah, you could put a probe in and take an x ray with a probe in place like you [00:12:30] might do otherwise to measure bone levels. Um, yeah, I, you could, you [00:12:35] can probe and you can feel it. You can feel whether it’s smooth, you can feel if you’ve got three millimetres.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s go back to the beginning. [00:12:40]

Manrina Rhode: Let’s go.

Payman Langroudi: Why dentistry?

Manrina Rhode: Um. What kind of a.

Payman Langroudi: Kid were you? [00:12:45]

Manrina Rhode: I wanted to be an actress. Did you? I wanted [00:12:50] to be a famous actress. Until.

Payman Langroudi: Until what age?

Manrina Rhode: Still do. No, no, [00:12:55] I’m over it now. I had that that period of my life where where I did my acting. Um, so I’m [00:13:00] that. That’s who I was as a kid. And I think that tells you something about me right from the beginning, [00:13:05] um, that I was a performer. And, you know, when you have my these videos where my parents have a camcorder [00:13:10] in Disneyland, when when I’m a child, a ten year old, and I’m walking up to the camera and I’m saying, [00:13:15] this is the 9:00 news, let me tell you what’s happening in Disney World today. You know, I wanted to be a TV presenter [00:13:20] from a young age. I loved to perform, I performed at weddings. I love to dance, you know, [00:13:25] and, um. And I wanted to be a famous actress. That’s what I wanted to do with my life. And [00:13:30] why did you live in Chislehurst in Kent? Yeah. My, you know, you know, my [00:13:35] parents are there. Yeah, it’s a lovely place. I was the only Indian, um, in my class. [00:13:40] Um, and that was fine. Like, you know, didn’t didn’t impact me in any way. Um, I had had great [00:13:45] cultural values with my family, spent a lot of time with my family equally, you know, my school friends that [00:13:50] were Caucasian and that was all all great.

Manrina Rhode: My mum was a maths professor. Professor. She [00:13:55] also taught in colleges. So she, you know, we were all well integrated, having been born in the UK. [00:14:00] Um, and, and then when, when I was doing my bachelor, my A-levels. [00:14:05] So I was going to do a maths, history and theatre studies. Um, then [00:14:10] my headmistress pulled me aside and said, oh, you know, you’re very good at science and you’re very [00:14:15] good at art. And did you know that you could combine the two in dentistry? And I [00:14:20] was like, oh, I’m going to be a famous actress. Why would I, you know, want to consider dentistry? And [00:14:25] she said, um, just have a look. And I was in a, in a grammar school, and I’ve always [00:14:30] been a very good girl. I still am. I don’t like to break rules, and I really like to be told I’ve done [00:14:35] a good job. Um, I really do self-aware. I’m very self-aware, as [00:14:40] you can tell. Um, but, yeah, I really, really.

Payman Langroudi: You only child?

Manrina Rhode: No, I’m the [00:14:45] youngest sister. There’s two of us. Okay. Yeah. And what does your dad do?

Payman Langroudi: What did your dad do?

Manrina Rhode: He [00:14:50] was an engineer. But, um. But that was where his education was. But he ran a business when we [00:14:55] were small. He had a shop when we were small, and then he didn’t have good health. [00:15:00] So he had his first heart attack when he was 40, and he went on to have seven [00:15:05] heart attacks and quadruple bypass surgeries until he passed away five years ago. So, [00:15:10] um, no, I know, yeah, it’s very, very sad to lose him, but I’m very glad I had him for that many years. [00:15:15] You know, they they took me when I was seven years old and told me to say goodbye to him after that first heart attack, and he [00:15:20] stayed around for another over 30 years. So, um. So, yeah. Do you remember.

Payman Langroudi: Is that [00:15:25] a childhood memory of a sick parent?

Manrina Rhode: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like a worry. [00:15:30] Anxiety. What? I mean, when you think back to your childhood, there’s no anger on that subject. [00:15:35] What did you feel?

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, there’s no anxiety. I look back on it very matter of factly. [00:15:40] And in fact, it’s just part.

Payman Langroudi: Of your day to day.

Manrina Rhode: When people point it out to me and I say, oh yeah, I spent at least a month [00:15:45] in hospital every, every year of my life because my dad was in hospital for like a month, every, every year. [00:15:50] And to me, it was just part of my childhood. My parents never made it an issue for us. They [00:15:55] never made it out like it was a bad thing. They were just like, oh, dad’s in hospital again. Okay, we’re going to visit dad in hospital. Dad was [00:16:00] fine when we went to visit. Oh, my babies are here. Yeah, I’m all good. Everything’s good, daddy’s good. It never felt like. [00:16:05] Obviously. Now I know there were things going on. Yeah. Are you going to make me cry? It’s [00:16:10] too early to make me cry. Payman. We just started.

Payman Langroudi: The goal of this podcast.

Manrina Rhode: Is to make baby cry. [00:16:15] I was going to make you cry. Oh, talking about dentistry. Dan, what about your dad? Do [00:16:20] you want to talk about my divorce as well? Yeah, yeah, we.

Payman Langroudi: Certainly [00:16:25] want to get.

Manrina Rhode: To that.

Payman Langroudi: So I told you this podcast would be a bit different to most people. [00:16:30] I listened to two of your other podcasts. No, [00:16:35] no. I need something more out of you today. Yeah. So. Okay. So. So it’s not your dad didn’t have a word with [00:16:40] your headmistress. It wasn’t one of those Asian parents things. No.

Manrina Rhode: They were very supportive of me wanting [00:16:45] to go into fashion or acting or whatever I wanted to do.

Payman Langroudi: That’s different, isn’t it?

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. Well, yeah, they are they different. [00:16:50]

Payman Langroudi: To the average in that sense.

Manrina Rhode: They’re super different. My well, I don’t know everyone’s parents, but my, my parents were super awesome. [00:16:55] You know, we were encouraged to do fashion shows. And, you know, we’d sometimes at the weekend [00:17:00] we’d put on all our outfits and me and my sister would parade in and out of the living room in all our different [00:17:05] outfits. And my dad would put the camcorder up and we’d make a show. And we were kind of like, really encouraged to be [00:17:10] these Uber confident ladies, um, from a super young age. Well, [00:17:15] if you’ve heard my other podcast, you’ll have heard this story before, but I’ll tell you it again. Um, that, [00:17:20] um, you know, my my dad, um, never let me believe that I [00:17:25] wasn’t able to do anything. You know, if I went to school and I did a painting [00:17:30] and my art teacher said, this isn’t very good, Marina, like, you know, you should work at blah, blah, blah. And I came home and said, [00:17:35] oh, my art teacher said, this painting is not very good. Then my dad said, of course it’s brilliant, it’s excellent. [00:17:40] She doesn’t know what she’s talking about. This is a brilliant piece of art. And then I’d be like, oh, is it? Oh, [00:17:45] okay. I mean, firstly, he’s teaching me that the people in the people that were in control [00:17:50] were not always telling the truth, which maybe was a good lesson or wasn’t, but it made me [00:17:55] look at it again and really believe in myself. And so now I’ve come through with this, this unshakeable [00:18:00] belief in myself, um, that I’m good at everything and it seems to be, [00:18:05] uh, self-fulfilling.

Payman Langroudi: But you’re not. You’re not a parent, are you? No. It’s a difficult one with [00:18:10] kids. That subject. Yeah. Because I can see clearly that your [00:18:15] dad doing that is probably good for confidence. Right? Mhm. But at the same time when, [00:18:20] when you’re the parent. Mhm. And I’ve asked other parents this question and I [00:18:25] especially look for parents of very confident kids because when you think of, you know, what is it you’re [00:18:30] giving your kid? What’s the best thing you can give your kid? Confidence definitely is one of them. Mhm. [00:18:35] Um, but personally I worry about arrogance and confidence [00:18:40] and I know they’re very different things, but they’re in the same area. And [00:18:45] I’m always thinking I want to be very real with my kid. And sometimes that comes [00:18:50] out, you know you’re talking to a child. You’re not talking to an adult. Mhm. Um, sometimes a kid [00:18:55] can’t handle the truth, you know, and in a way, it makes more sense to act like your, [00:19:00] your dad was certainly worked for you.

Manrina Rhode: Maybe there needs to be balance. Yeah. Yeah I think there needs to be humility. [00:19:05] And I think you need to realise that. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me about that side of it. I mean, were they, were they balancing [00:19:10] it with humility as well. Like how how did you learn that.

Manrina Rhode: So they both my parents are [00:19:15] both super strong people. Right. My mom comes from a generations [00:19:20] of strong women. Um, my mom is an incredibly strong, powerful woman. [00:19:25] Um, she, my my grandmother was the oldest of seven, and she was the head of the family. So [00:19:30] all those grandparents and all their kids and all our cousins were all under my grandmother’s [00:19:35] authority. Um, and her mother was a super powerful woman. So there’s this whole generational [00:19:40] line of these women that don’t, you know, you can’t mess around with. And [00:19:45] they were completely different. And my mom’s family from, from they were very different from my dad’s [00:19:50] family. So my mom’s family were very academic, uh, very humble, uh, very intelligent, [00:19:55] almost calm people, um, in their way [00:20:00] of thinking. Whereas my dad’s family, um, again, highly intelligent, [00:20:05] powerful people, but very looks are very important to them. The way people look, the way they [00:20:10] come across confidence, the way you dress, the way you present yourself. You know, there’s [00:20:15] obviously there’s there’s there’s nuance in.

Payman Langroudi: All of that. Yeah. Yeah.

Manrina Rhode: There’s a bit of both in both [00:20:20] in both sides. I mean, my mom’s mother was also like wanted us to always look a certain way, but my dad’s family [00:20:25] are really quite loosest and loosest. Yeah. Some of them are like just loosest. [00:20:30] Looks like it’s crazy. Like, they just like, you know, they really come quite harsh on you on the way that you [00:20:35] look about. Yeah. About keeping things keep, you know, optimising yourself at all times, which was, [00:20:40] which was interesting.

Payman Langroudi: And you seek.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And when you identity [00:20:45] wise, is that how you think of yourself? Do you think of yourself as a Sikh? Do you think of yourself as a [00:20:50] British Asian? What how do you how do you identify. Mhm.

Manrina Rhode: I’m so proud to be [00:20:55] Sikh. I feel so proud when, um. You know, I listen to to prayers, and they make me feel [00:21:00] something. Um, I listen to Punjabi music when, you know, if I’m. If I ever feel like I [00:21:05] am lacking confidence, I’ll put some bhangra on and I’ll find myself like, oh, Punjabi music. Standing straighter and walking in [00:21:10] a different way because I’m so proud of my heritage. Um, so I think, yeah, probably I identify as [00:21:15] Punjabi or Sikh. Um, maybe Punjabi more than anything, like, you know, sort of [00:21:20] culturally, uh, more than British. Asian, I think always found that British Asian term a bit strange, [00:21:25] although that’s obviously what I am like, you know. But my parents were born in Africa and my grandparents were as [00:21:30] well. So we’re kind of like third generation, uh, Kenya, Kenya and Nairobi. Yeah. Are [00:21:35] you from Africa?

Payman Langroudi: No, but I’ve had loads of people whose parents came from Africa. Yeah. There’s [00:21:40] a can do attitude about that generation, right? Yeah. Because they were doing [00:21:45] it in Africa where they had to. Yeah. There’s a different way of thinking in Africa, I think. Yeah, the [00:21:50] Kenyans that came from there, I’m thinking of so many people like Dipesh Parmar, Vishal [00:21:55] Shah, Prav himself. Yeah. His parents came from there. Um, okay, [00:22:00] let’s move on to then you went to guys?

Manrina Rhode: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: How did you find that? [00:22:05]

Manrina Rhode: I love guys, I’m so proud of being a guys Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But on the day you got there, did you. Was it. Was it daunting? [00:22:10] Was it exciting? Was it I loved it London. The big city. Right. You’re coming from Kent. [00:22:15] Yeah.

Manrina Rhode: So I oh so now you can have something that’s not been on on another podcast. [00:22:20] There you go. I was dating, um, a medical student at guy’s, [00:22:25] um, from the age of 16 to 19. So he was, [00:22:30] um, a final year. Um, he would have been a final year, like he was seven [00:22:35] years older than me. And he was, um, about to be a doctor, and he was at guys. So [00:22:40] I’d already spent a lot of time at guys going out there and getting to know the area. I knew about the spit, like about, [00:22:45] you know, the bar.

Payman Langroudi: You were 16 and he was final year of medicine.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, he was 23. I like.

Payman Langroudi: That. [00:22:50] Go on.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. There’s a whole story in itself. Yeah. Um, yeah. So yeah, I know now [00:22:55] I look back at it, I was just like, what was going on there? It was very much, um, encouraged by my parents. [00:23:00] Like, not so, maybe not so much my dad, but by my mum. Um, because she was just like, oh, he’s a really, you know, he’s he’s Punjabi [00:23:05] and he’s Sikh and he’s going to be a doctor and he’s from a good family, and he’s taken this interest in you. And, [00:23:10] um, if you decide to get engaged and you get married, then that’s okay. He’ll be a doctor, you’ll be a [00:23:15] dentist, and there’s no harm in you just being with him now from the age of 16 for the rest of your life. [00:23:20]

Payman Langroudi: And what happened to that relationship?

Manrina Rhode: Um, we broke up when I was 19, [00:23:25] so my first year of, uh, of dental school, but I. But I did come to dental school with a boyfriend [00:23:30] with this older boyfriend who’d already been at guys for five years. Yeah. Um, so it was a very comfortable [00:23:35] environment for me to be in. And, um, and then I met this other guy at at [00:23:40] dental school. Um, I heard some stories about you at dental school, actually, last week that we can talk about. If you want [00:23:45] to make this podcast about you, we’re talking here. Um, [00:23:50] and, um, I met this this guy at dental school who I was [00:23:55] just enamoured with. Um, and, um, and then I left my [00:24:00] long term boyfriend, uh, to date someone.

Payman Langroudi: In your year.

Manrina Rhode: This guy? Yeah, he was a medic [00:24:05] in my year. His name is Rajiv. Um, anyone who was at uni, he’s. He’s my best friend now. Now, 27 [00:24:10] years later to me, Rajiv is still. Yeah, still best friend.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, so. So were [00:24:15] you living at. What was it called?

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then Dover Street. [00:24:20] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: A bit of a culture shock. I mean, back then, London Bridge wasn’t anywhere near as lovely as [00:24:25] it is now. Yeah, it was a bit bit more edgy, wasn’t it, back then.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, but I guess you’re 18. [00:24:30] You’ve never lived out of home. Yeah. And I. And like I said, I’d already spent two years going back and forth to. You knew it really well. [00:24:35] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So then how about the course itself? Did you did you find you took to it easily? Were you one of the ones who [00:24:40] was I don’t know, the phantom head lab. Were you comfortable there or were you one of the ones who was like me? I was [00:24:45] I was very slow, very slow to learn I hated it. Oh, I.

Manrina Rhode: Loved it, I hated it, I.

Payman Langroudi: Hated [00:24:50] dissection, I hated so much about first and second year of dental school.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, I loved [00:24:55] it. I loved all of it. I loved dissection, even though it was gross. I loved, loved that experience. I loved [00:25:00] Phantom Head. I had a tutor, um, at university who, [00:25:05] um, thought that, um, I was getting, like, boys in my year to do my [00:25:10] work for me. Um. Were you? Well, no. Not really. And so he [00:25:15] kind of like, he just made that assumption about me because. Because I was one of the, you know, looking girls in the year. [00:25:20] And, um, and then, you know, and I felt that, well, no, actually, I’m [00:25:25] a geek as well. And I’m working hard. And then, you know, I got, um, distinctions in all my clinical exams [00:25:30] because I loved I love that, I love using my hands and I love which is why I do the work that I do. Very intricate [00:25:35] dentistry now. Um, and so then it was like, well, you know, no one obviously helped me in these clinical [00:25:40] exams because this was me just working, and I got distinctions and all of them. So are you going to are you going to lay off and realise [00:25:45] that just because there may be men hanging around my pod trying to, like, hang out with me, I’m not, you [00:25:50] know, they’re not doing my work. They just want to hang out here and that’s okay.

Payman Langroudi: But so, okay, I mean, a lot of, a lot of [00:25:55] people have find that sort of Dental school supervisor, sort [00:26:00] of I mean, I don’t know, I think they, they sort of think it’s a pressure job. So I’m going to [00:26:05] pressurise you to see how you handle pressure. A lot of people find that really hard. Mhm. Did [00:26:10] you handle that. Absolutely.

Manrina Rhode: Well yeah I don’t I don’t because I guess I’ve had that attitude [00:26:15] where it’s just like if someone’s going to try and pick on me, I don’t know whether it’s a good or a bad thing in my life, but the way [00:26:20] that my brain sees things is if someone says, I’m like, I am excellent. And if you can’t see that, [00:26:25] that’s because, well, no, I just kind of think I’m just going to do me because what you think about me, that you think these guys [00:26:30] are doing my work is not true. So that’s a you thing. That’s not a me thing because I am doing good work [00:26:35] here. Like I knew that I was because I’m a goody goody. I’m going to I’m not going to break any rules. I’m going to do everything [00:26:40] that I can. I’m going to be the best that I can. Like, I’m that person who that’s who I want to be like. [00:26:45]

Payman Langroudi: By the way, what did your sister become? Don’t say she became an accountant or.

Manrina Rhode: She’s a pharmacist.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, she [00:26:50] didn’t become an actress.

Manrina Rhode: Oh, she never wanted to be an actress.

Payman Langroudi: But you had those fashion shows. I [00:26:55] thought.

Manrina Rhode: She’s could have gone and done it.

Payman Langroudi: After her dreams.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, yeah. No. Okay. She [00:27:00] does like to dress up nice, does she?

Payman Langroudi: So you finished and then she.

Manrina Rhode: Finished [00:27:05] and then. Yeah. That was in Beckenham, um, at a lovely clinic. [00:27:10] And. Yeah, I loved that. And then. Yeah, obviously after the London.

Payman Langroudi: Job straight into London. [00:27:15] So that must have been, I mean I tried something like that straight out of it. Mhm. And [00:27:20] I remember the guy sitting in front of me saying what makes you think someone like you can have this job. Mhm. [00:27:25] And um I think I, I ended up saying look I’ll just take a small worse [00:27:30] cut you know. But yeah back then it was.

Manrina Rhode: Oh and he took you on. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You should have seen the way his face changed [00:27:35] when I said that. He went from like mocking me to saying, oh, nice to see a young man [00:27:40] in a suit. Yeah.

Manrina Rhode: Oh, that’s so entrepreneurial of you. Like you’ve [00:27:45] always been who you are as well. It’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: It wasn’t entrepreneurship. It was the fact that I just [00:27:50] could not stand the NHS. The the idea that there’s a third party, someone [00:27:55] else in between me and the patient just really annoyed the her. I mean, especially someone else [00:28:00] who’s got no, no understanding of the situation. And there’s rules and regulations and you have to cut costs [00:28:05] at every corner. Just I decide I will not do NHS dentistry. That’s that. And then it was like, [00:28:10] so what am I going to do. So, so that’s where I.

Manrina Rhode: And this guy’s amazing. That’s this guy getting.

Payman Langroudi: Private [00:28:15] in 1962.

Manrina Rhode: Wow.

Payman Langroudi: And so he was saying, he was saying actually he’s saying I’ve never had anyone [00:28:20] work here who hasn’t qualified from guy’s and I hadn’t I was I was from [00:28:25] Cardiff. And then he said, he said, what makes you think you can have this job when you’ve just come out of UT? And [00:28:30] then and I said I’ll take 40%. And suddenly you changed his position. And I’ve [00:28:35] given that advice to a lot of young dentists.

Manrina Rhode: So impressive. Such a great story.

Payman Langroudi: So how did you land Surinder’s job? [00:28:40]

Manrina Rhode: Oh, so it was, you know, was it London? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It was set up the way it was.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. [00:28:45] So London. So Raj Ratan came to speak to us when I was in BT and said, this [00:28:50] clinic has opened in Knightsbridge. It has heated water beds and a giant fish tank. [00:28:55] And it’s a cosmetic dental spa and it’s like nothing the UK has ever seen before. There’s this guy, Surinder [00:29:00] Hundal. He’s a complete innovator and this is pictures of what he’s created. And all of us just sat there with [00:29:05] our mouths open, like, is this really what dentistry can be? It was crazy. And it was. And it was 2002. Right? [00:29:10] It was just so I.

Payman Langroudi: Think dentists had done something.

Manrina Rhode: They just started, but it wasn’t as glamorous. Even more, [00:29:15] it was so glamorous, like, oh, it was so beautiful. Even for now, what he’d created was [00:29:20] just beautiful. Um. And the.

Payman Langroudi: Position. Right. I mean, we somehow dentists had sort of thought there [00:29:25] is no way a dentist could be on Knightsbridge.

Manrina Rhode: Opposite Harvey Nicks, opposite the embassy from [00:29:30] the Harrods. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So how did you land the job?

Manrina Rhode: So he put the advert out in the BDG because that’s how we got [00:29:35] jobs back then. And, you know, people kept saying to me, Marina, he he was advertising for [00:29:40] a dentist to set up his clinic in Harvey Nicks. So he had the foresight.

Payman Langroudi: Because he was doing that.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, In Manchester. Yeah. [00:29:45] Yeah. And so they were like, this is you. It’s fashion and dentistry. Like, you know, you need to do this. And [00:29:50] so I was like, okay, so I, I got pearlised paper, I wrote my CV. They didn’t have very much on it, [00:29:55] put my photo in the corner and spritzed it with perfume and sent it off by post to [00:30:00] apply for this job and somehow got called for interview. I didn’t have the experience that he wanted for the position [00:30:05] that he’d advertised for, and kind of arrived at London in Knightsbridge with this waiting room, like America’s [00:30:10] Next Top model for dentists. Yeah, dentists, glamorous, beautiful dentists [00:30:15] all lined up waiting to go and speak to Surinder. So I was like, okay, right, let’s, let’s do this. And [00:30:20] went through this whole interview process, which was an initial interview with Surinder and his manager, [00:30:25] and then a written paper exam on cosmetic dentistry. I just graduated, so I’d gone to my tutors, [00:30:30] found out what the cosmetic dental textbooks were, got them out from the BD BDA library, learned [00:30:35] them all, memorise them all, learned cosmetic dentistry, aced this exam and [00:30:40] then it was a patient exam. So he got his receptionist to be a patient. And you had to do a new patient exam on this patient. [00:30:45] And then she had to report back how she made you feel. So I was good at all those because talking to Serena [00:30:50] and the manager, I’m good at chat. I was good at chat at 23 and so I did that bit.

Manrina Rhode: I aced [00:30:55] the written exam. And the receptionist who still my friend, uh, now, um, said that she felt [00:31:00] really comfortable and I’d done this perfect new patient exam on her because I’d done it how we’d been taught at university. [00:31:05] Um, so yeah, I was I was offered the job, and when I was offered it, you know, I said to Surinder, I don’t have the [00:31:10] experience, by the way, that you’ve asked for in this advert. And he was like, you know what? You’ve got the right attitude and you’ve got the right [00:31:15] vibe, and I’m going to teach you the dentistry. And I was like, great, I will do everything that I need to do [00:31:20] to make sure that you are never disappointed in making this decision. And, um, you [00:31:25] know, that came with, um, with its own thing. You know, it was a very exciting thing in the industry [00:31:30] at the time when I’d go to dental events or out with my dental colleagues, you know, everyone [00:31:35] would be like, oh, Linda’s like, you know, so excited for me that I got which was probably the, you know, what was probably [00:31:40] the best associate job in the country at the time. Um, but also with it came jealousy and [00:31:45] comments from people being like, oh well, what is your relationship with Surinder? How did you get [00:31:50] that job? How are you keeping this job? Um, and I never had a relationship. I never had [00:31:55] a I would consider Surinder as a friend, but I never had a romantic relationship [00:32:00] with Surinder.

Manrina Rhode: It was purely work. Platonic relationship. Um. And the way that I kept [00:32:05] my job was by working my ass off like that work ethic that I had was literally. [00:32:10] I would never say no if he needed me to work till midnight, because there were veneer cases that wanted to come in, I did [00:32:15] them. If he said, come in on a Sunday, I did it. If he said, write up this case, I would spend the evening sitting writing it [00:32:20] up to the most perfect, like, you know, presentation standard and present it to him and make sure there was never a time [00:32:25] where he could say, you know, you’ve not tried hard enough on this, or you’ve done this half heartedly. And I think that work ethic, [00:32:30] um, is missing, like the work ethic, which is why I was so impressed with your what [00:32:35] you showed with the way that you got your job, that you went for it and you found a solution and you got it. I think that’s [00:32:40] that work ethic can be difficult to find. And even if you interview people these days from the younger generation, [00:32:45] um, I don’t know if it’s millennials or the generation after them, um, that, [00:32:50] um, maybe they can talk the talk, but once you bring them in, they haven’t got the work ethic. They’re like, oh, do I need [00:32:55] to go there? Do I need to do that? And it’s like, do you not appreciate the opportunity?

Payman Langroudi: Well, well, well let’s, let’s let’s just let’s [00:33:00] just go back one step. Yeah. I agree with you that the, the latest generation, [00:33:05] these Gen Zs. Yeah. Their timing is so perfect. [00:33:10] And the way that it’s almost like they’ve grown up on, on media [00:33:15] that we’ll get to social media in a minute. But in the same way as Americans, you know, I’ve got a cousin [00:33:20] in America, and she she had to give a little speech at someone else’s wedding, and it was like she was doing [00:33:25] this beautiful Oscar winning performance. And I said to her, what did you get coaching or something? And she said, no, I [00:33:30] just did it in that same way that the Gen Z’s seem to know how to talk and [00:33:35] and then so so our generation. I’m a bit older than you, but our lot. When [00:33:40] we see someone who can talk very well, we take it for granted because back in our [00:33:45] day, it was only the people who knew their stuff who would talk really well. So I agree with you to that extent [00:33:50] that it’s harder to tell these days based on what someone says. Mhm. We’re, [00:33:55] we’re a sort of diverge from maybe what you’re saying is that there’s definitely hard working Gen [00:34:00] Zers. Mhm. They exist. It’s just harder to see who which ones which from [00:34:05] the way they talk. Mhm.

Manrina Rhode: You know of course they exist. There’s a variety in every generation now.

Payman Langroudi: They [00:34:10] do also, I don’t know. You must you’ll you’ll know better than me because you’re hiring, you know, dentists now [00:34:15] they’re much happier to say I only want to work three days a week. I only want to do private, [00:34:20] you know, they they want to do those things. Whereas in our day, sort of not not you, but [00:34:25] most of us used to have to do our bit on the NHS or whatever. Yeah. So [00:34:30] they are different to us. You know I agree with that. What are your thoughts on [00:34:35] all this.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah I think I’ve just found um it’s yeah, it’s different I think [00:34:40] through hiring now as a principal, it’s been interesting getting to know these different generations. But I think [00:34:45] what, what does bother me is work ethic or lack of work ethic. And so [00:34:50] that’s why I got quite passionate about it just now. Um, because I’ve come through a few examples [00:34:55] of people that I feel like you don’t appreciate the opportunity to understand. This is an [00:35:00] opportunity. Do you understand? Working alongside me is an opportunity. And it’s something that, um, that [00:35:05] is sought after that, you know, people want that opportunity to be mentored. They want someone to to take them under [00:35:10] their wing. And I will do all of that for you. I will do everything for you. But in return, you need to also [00:35:15] meet your deadlines. If I ask you to do something, do it. Do it properly, take it seriously and [00:35:20] take this opportunity seriously. And I haven’t found that always to be the case. Um, and when it’s [00:35:25] not, I think. Oh, and I think it’s because they’ve had these very easy lives like, you know, they say, what is it? Easy [00:35:30] times create self people. Self people. Yeah. Then the soft, the soft people [00:35:35] create hard times and then the hard times create. Yeah. You know, stronger people. And [00:35:40] there’s this whole thing about everything just being fun and like they just want to have fun, which is, you know, [00:35:45] in a way is great.

Manrina Rhode: It’s great that they want to work part time. And even though I wasn’t slaving [00:35:50] away in the NHS in my 20s, I was working. I was working till midnight. I was working Sundays. [00:35:55] I worked every hour that I was awake. If Surinder wanted me to do that, I did it. Um, if there were patients [00:36:00] that needed to be seen, I saw them. Um, and with that, yeah, I was well rewarded [00:36:05] for it and bought my new Porsche 911 and bought my, you know, my, my, my home in Knightsbridge. Um, [00:36:10] in my 20s and all that, which was great. But it wasn’t that any of it came without hard work. It [00:36:15] was very much like, I’m going to do this, and I’m going to not try and get away with doing it by trying to use [00:36:20] ChatGPT or do it so it didn’t exist in some other way. It was like, I’m just going to do this to the very best that it [00:36:25] can be done. And I want to be impressive. Um, and I don’t know, I think sometimes people with that, that [00:36:30] work ethic are harder to find. Or maybe I’m just not finding them, but.

Payman Langroudi: They are hard to find, right? [00:36:35] They are hard to find. Maybe. Maybe Surinder saw something in you.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, he saw that. That’s who. I think that’s. [00:36:40]

Payman Langroudi: The kind of person you were. Mm. I also want to go back to this question of, you know, did you sleep your way to the top kind [00:36:45] of question because, you know, bless her, told me a similar story. [00:36:50]

Manrina Rhode: Really? I didn’t know she had one.

Payman Langroudi: She she said someone said that to her. But how did you get yourself on TV? [00:36:55] Did you sleep? Yeah. With her? And you know, on this pod, we do talk a lot about, you know, men and [00:37:00] women and men and women in dentistry.

Manrina Rhode: But I think there are equal amount of high flying women [00:37:05] as they are of high flying men. As much as there might be women out there who take time out to bring [00:37:10] up their children, and of course they should. And, you know, they’ll set the priorities wherever they want to set them. They’re [00:37:15] equally the same amount of men who just can’t be bothered to push their career forward, who [00:37:20] are quite happy just to turn up and be in associates or run an NHS practice or whatever it is that they choose to [00:37:25] do with their lives. Um, low, low pressure, not putting themselves forward. But if you look at percentages [00:37:30] of people who are high flyers and are capable and are wanting to be leaders [00:37:35] in their profession, I would say there’s probably equal numbers. Um, I don’t [00:37:40] think that that motherhood is stopping those women who really want to achieve from doing [00:37:45] that.

Payman Langroudi: What do you think is to stop you? But it’s going to make your life a lot harder. You know, they [00:37:50] still.

Manrina Rhode: They still.

Payman Langroudi: Lecture. They definitely.

Manrina Rhode: Exist. Yeah, they can still lecture. They can still sell on board.

Payman Langroudi: One of my heroes, Linda [00:37:55] Greenwald.

Manrina Rhode: She’s amazing for.

Payman Langroudi: Children. Mhm.

Manrina Rhode: Amazing for. Yeah. So it can be done. [00:38:00]

Payman Langroudi: It can be done.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. It can be done. All these strong women have done it. Uchenna did it. Seema Sharma did [00:38:05] it I mean Clare Nightingale I can start listing. You know, all these women who I look up to within our profession and [00:38:10] they’ve all got kids and they’ve all still managed to do these other things. So I don’t think we can use that as an excuse. Oh, [00:38:15] I didn’t ask this person to lecture because they’ve got kids and they might not want to do it. That doesn’t make sense. [00:38:20]

Payman Langroudi: No, no, not that they’re not out there. You know, they’re not out there. They’re busy building families. [00:38:25] They’re not they’re not out there in the same way as some men are or more men are. You know, it’s a numbers [00:38:30] game, isn’t it?

Manrina Rhode: We’re talking numbers. It’s very much, um, everyone’s just going to work, and the men are going to work, and the women [00:38:35] are going to work, whether they’re working full time or part time or whatever they’re doing. And then where these lecturing commitments [00:38:40] come in or board positions, um, it’s just that the fact that [00:38:45] it’s an old a lot of them are old boys clubs, and it’s the old boys.

Payman Langroudi: You’re on the board of some stuff.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, I’ve been [00:38:50] on boards all through my career. But, you know, when I was on the board of the British Academy of Cosmetic Dentistry [00:38:55] forever ago. Um, I, I think I joined them in 2007. [00:39:00] Um, they they invited me to join the board because it was an all male board, [00:39:05] and they just co-opted me on without a voting process because they were like, oh, you know, you’re really [00:39:10] involved in our committees and we should probably get a woman on the board. And so I joined the board for a few years. And then when [00:39:15] I left the board, it was an all male board again. And so, you know, there was at [00:39:20] some point they brought me in for that little bit, but it’s still very much male dominated. [00:39:25] The lectures that they choose are very male dominated. And if you go to them and say, why is it that [00:39:30] there’s not an equal number of male and female lecturers at your events? They’ll say, oh, we don’t choose our [00:39:35] lecturers based on on sex. We, we, we choose them based on, you know, how [00:39:40] Merit. Yeah, merit. But I refuse to believe that there are not an equal number [00:39:45] of men and women with enough merit to warrant them to lecture at our events. In a [00:39:50] very clear example of that is with Invisalign. So at the last years Invisalign conference, the orthodontic [00:39:55] conference, there was a vastly male dominated, dominated speaker. Line-up. [00:40:00] I think there was one woman talking about looking after your team or something. [00:40:05] Like something completely non-clinical, with a full clinical Line-Up of men and some orthodontics [00:40:10] or orthodontics. Boycotted it. And certainly we all made our, you know, our [00:40:15] views, um, uh, audible to them. And also they started organising these [00:40:20] women’s dinners and they invited, I think, 20 of us from around the country [00:40:25] out to dinner so they could sit and talk to us women in dentistry.

Manrina Rhode: Invisalign invited us to talk about, you know, what are we [00:40:30] doing wrong here? How can we do better? And then at this year’s conference, it was completely different. It was a completely [00:40:35] equal Line-Up for Men and women, and they were great lectures. So it can be done. It might take [00:40:40] a minute longer to not go for the normal people who put themselves forward saying, let me do it and think about, you [00:40:45] know, actually who’s really good out there and who would be really interesting to listen to. Um, but with that, that small [00:40:50] amount of thought, that’s how you’re going to create change. So to not want to create it, it’s just in my opinion, it’s just [00:40:55] lazy and to to bring up this whole reverse sexism thing that oh by, by [00:41:00] making equal numbers of men and women is then reverse sexism. And I don’t want to be part of that is even more ridiculous, [00:41:05] because there will never be a change which needs to happen if we don’t make the effort for that to make that change. [00:41:10] So that’s the time that we’re in right now. That’s the change we’re trying to create. And so it needs people to acknowledge that and try and [00:41:15] do it. I am now on the board of directors for the British Association of Private Dentistry, which is actually [00:41:20] a completely equal board or actually more female dominated than male for a range of races, [00:41:25] a range of ages and very well represented organisations. So [00:41:30] yeah, I feel really proud to be a PD. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Ba PD also had a similar issue though didn’t they.

Manrina Rhode: They did, but they did something about [00:41:35] it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah I agree. So let’s talk about those. [00:41:40] How many years was it you were at Surinder.

Manrina Rhode: Uh 2003 till 2008. [00:41:45] 2009. I left about five six years.

Payman Langroudi: In those five six years, of course, you learnt the clinical [00:41:50] stuff.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But what else did you learn from Surinder?

Manrina Rhode: Everything. I [00:41:55] just I feel so grateful to him. I feel so ridiculously grateful. I [00:42:00] wish I could just see him and say to him, Surinder, thank you. Um, for [00:42:05] for everything. You know what I’ve created now at Drmr, which I believe you know, my super clinic, which I believe [00:42:10] is the most beautiful in the world, the level of five star service that we have, that we offer our clients [00:42:15] flying from all over the world. A lot of what I’ve done here is emulating what I was taught at that time, [00:42:20] and what Surinder built there was so special. We had our clinics in [00:42:25] Harvey Nichols and Harrods. You know, I ran both those clinics for him as well as our our head office in London. [00:42:30] And then we had face down the road and, you know, he was just he, he, he [00:42:35] had such so much charisma and all the team had so much love for him. Um, that [00:42:40] we wanted to please him. And what Surinder was really good at was he was a people person. So [00:42:45] like you said, oh, he saw that in you when he interviewed you? Yes, he did Payman because that’s what he could do. He [00:42:50] hired so well. He built these amazing teams of people that some of the people I worked with back then are [00:42:55] still my best friends now, you know, 20 years later, even though we now live all over the world, some of them have moved [00:43:00] back to Australia. And, you know, they live, they live, you know, everywhere. But we still keep in touch because we [00:43:05] created such a strong bond. Um, because of what he built there. You know, it was really a really [00:43:10] special place.

Payman Langroudi: I guess you were also sort of exposed to things like ten years younger [00:43:15] and just the press.

Manrina Rhode: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Did did you I mean, I remember one of my [00:43:20] early bosses had a PR company. Mhm. Working for him and just [00:43:25] opening that whole side of it.

Manrina Rhode: It was so glamorous. The whole thing was so glamorous. [00:43:30]

Payman Langroudi: Does that stayed with you now. Sort of keeping the press interested.

Manrina Rhode: Everything I do now, and it’s so long later [00:43:35] that I’ve, that I’ve opened my, my clinic. But so much of it was just taught from just starting my career, [00:43:40] being engulfed by everything that was. And it was known to be the most expensive clinic in the country [00:43:45] back then. That sort of affluent, like showing off about money was like a thing, like, you know, wearing [00:43:50] diamonds and designer labels. It’s not so much now, but it was a real thing back then. And my patients [00:43:55] would go out for dinner, and that would be something you’d bring up in conversation. Oh, I go to London because everyone [00:44:00] kind of knew what that meant. It’s like, oh, you go to the most expensive clinic in the world. And that was the service that we provided. [00:44:05] We had so many A-list celebrities that used to come in. We used to provide this amazing service for all of them. [00:44:10] We worked so well as a team together. We loved each other so much that we didn’t mind if we worked late, because we just loved [00:44:15] all hanging out together. And when we weren’t working, we still spent all our time together. Like after work, we’d go sit in [00:44:20] the pub and every Friday, every Friday night he took us out clubbing and to these amazing clubs [00:44:25] in Mayfair. We were all in our 20s, right? So, you know, he’d get a table at a club in Mayfair, and we [00:44:30] were introduced to that whole lifestyle from a really young age, looking a certain way, acting a certain way, being around [00:44:35] all this affluence and really just building this real camaraderie that we’re all best friends. And everyone [00:44:40] knew exactly what was going on in the clinic with everyone else because we were such, such a close unit. He really built that. [00:44:45]

Payman Langroudi: So interesting to hear that, that side of it. Yeah.

Manrina Rhode: So awesome.

Payman Langroudi: So then what happened [00:44:50] next?

Manrina Rhode: So obviously ten years younger came about and ten years younger was this beast. [00:44:55] So you know, came on channel 4:08 p.m. Thursday night. There were only five TV channels, [00:45:00] but Friday morning there’d be 200 new patients trying to book in with surrender. Um, [00:45:05] and he he had a six month waiting list to see him. He put his new patient consultation fee up to £500. [00:45:10] And this is 20 years ago. Right. So there was a lot of money, um, and [00:45:15] anyone that couldn’t wait to see him, they saw me. And it was only me and him that were doing these veneers. So we’re doing ten, [00:45:20] 20 veneers five, seven days a week, working evenings. Uh, you [00:45:25] know, Surinder used to call ten years younger the beast because it was intense and I think it was [00:45:30] the beginning of the unravelling. Sorry, Surinder, if you’re listening. [00:45:35] Um, because it just became too much. It was too much. And, [00:45:40] um, you can’t say no to the business because it’s coming in. But equally, we couldn’t handle the business. I could [00:45:45] because I was in my 20s and it was all exciting. And like I said, I bought all these cool things and, you know, it was awesome. Um, but I [00:45:50] think it was it was a lot for Surinder. And, um, and things started to get really messy and, [00:45:55] um, and everyone started leaving.

Manrina Rhode: And one of my core qualities [00:46:00] or characteristics is loyalty. I’m a super loyal person. Um, and so I’ve really tried [00:46:05] to keep my loyalty there, but it got to a point where I couldn’t, um. And I had to move on. So, [00:46:10] um. Yeah. So I was working with the Bacd, and I was on a committee with Tiff Qureshi, who’s also [00:46:15] awesome. Um, and he took me under his wing, and he told me that Tim Bradstock Smith, who is also [00:46:20] a godfather of cosmetic dentistry, um, that had opened, you know, was opened London [00:46:25] small London small clinic. Yeah. And he was looking for a new associate to come in and do, do porcelain veneers all [00:46:30] day and, you know, did he want. Did I want to be put forward? And I was like, yeah, unfortunately I think I do need to be put [00:46:35] forward. Um, and so then, yeah, I got, I got that job there and then worked at both places for [00:46:40] a while like, you know, and that was a nuts year. Like, I don’t know, I don’t I’m not going to talk about how much I [00:46:45] earn in that time. But that was crazy amounts for someone in their 20s to be earning. Um, [00:46:50] your.

Payman Langroudi: Typical clinical day, was it prep in the morning? In the afternoon? [00:46:55] Just. Yeah, five days. Six days a week.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So just a veneer case every day. [00:47:00] Yeah. Prep and.

Manrina Rhode: Fit. Yeah I mean even now. Yeah. Even now. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. We do our consultations and the [00:47:05] main treatment I do is porcelain veneers. So but but but from 30, from the age of 30. So just. [00:47:10]

Payman Langroudi: What were you grossing.

Manrina Rhode: Well in that a day a [00:47:15] day. Oh I don’t know. Maybe. Yeah. Well ten, 20 grand a day. Yeah. Well it was crazy [00:47:20] time, like. Yeah. I mean, at that time in my 20s, I was earning a quarter of a million [00:47:25] a year, which was a lot of money when you’re 28.

Payman Langroudi: Back [00:47:30] then as well. Yeah. That, you know, inflation. Yeah.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, [00:47:35] yeah. It was crazy times. Um, but then from 30 I cut down to working [00:47:40] three days a week. And I’ve only ever clinically worked three days a week since then. So for the last 15 years. [00:47:45] So I did that in my 20s. But that was as far as my working really hard went.

Payman Langroudi: Do you feel like [00:47:50] you burnt out a little?

Manrina Rhode: Um, probably. Um, at [00:47:55] 32, I went to to to America for two years and [00:48:00] took a break from dentistry and pursued my acting career. And, um, and [00:48:05] I’m really glad that that break came at that time, because I think it’d been a lot like I’d really [00:48:10] worked a lot in my 20s. It was already a director of the BCD. [00:48:15] You know, people in dentistry knew who I was, you know, being given lecturing opportunities, [00:48:20] writing for journals, all the three things that we do in dentistry up until, you know, did [00:48:25] so much free stuff. I personally still do. Um, but I only probably started charging [00:48:30] for it the last few years, like for the first 20 years of my career. Um, and [00:48:35] pushing, pushing, pushing to just be the best, be recognised at the best. Like wanting to be the best in my field. Be be known [00:48:40] as this top cosmetic dentist. It was so important to me. Um, and then obviously Instagram came about [00:48:45] and then, you know, that that was a whole new way of, of of [00:48:50] of promoting yourself and for, for people to find you. Um, and I love that because it was like [00:48:55] acting. But yeah, I guess we’ll come on to social media. So yeah, I probably, I think it probably was a bit at burnout when [00:49:00] I went by the time I went to America, it came at a really good time.

Payman Langroudi: And when did marriage and divorce happen. [00:49:05]

Manrina Rhode: Then.

Payman Langroudi: This story.

Manrina Rhode: 31, I got married and 36, I got divorced. [00:49:10] Do you want to talk about it? Uh, if you like. Um, I married, uh, Rishi [00:49:15] Rich, um, who, um, is a British Asian, um, music producer. [00:49:20] Very famous British Asian music producer. Um, amazing.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:49:25] did you meet him?

Manrina Rhode: I so we we are our dads knew each other, so [00:49:30] I’d known him since I was a child. I probably, um, developed my first [00:49:35] crush on him when I was, like, seven. Like, I remember at seven. Just. You wasn’t [00:49:40] Rishi rich then? He was just. He’s just something that he was. I knew that’s what I liked. Um, I only [00:49:45] probably saw him, like, twice a year. Ever. Because he was. They were just friends. And it was only we were at the same place. [00:49:50] But whenever he was there, he had a very different upbringing from me. Um, he was [00:49:55] brought up in a council estate with with an alcoholic father, and, um, he, [00:50:00] um, he was just so cool, like, you know, just swag and cool and, [00:50:05] you know, music and DJing and. Yeah, um, whenever I’d see him, I just think [00:50:10] like, oh, that’s just so cool. Um, it was so different from me at this grammar school in Chislehurst [00:50:15] with all my Caucasian friends. Good girl. So good. Like, you know, so, like my, [00:50:20] you know, my parents, my mum’s a goodie goodie. And my dad’s like, yeah, a bit of a baddie. Cool guy, but, [00:50:25] you know, mum’s a goodie goodie. And I was. I’m a goodie goodie. I have a bit of that bad girl in me like from my [00:50:30] dad as well, but like, there’s a lot of that good, you know.

Manrina Rhode: And so I guess that’s why that was attractive. Um, because [00:50:35] it felt a bit like maybe what my dad was like, and I guess. Yeah, when we when I was growing up, before [00:50:40] Chiselhurst, we had a shop when I was really small, like in Abbey wood, [00:50:45] um, until the age of seven. And then my dad’s friends were [00:50:50] like bikers, like there was a biker gang, and they used to hang around a lot. Um, [00:50:55] and then some of them ended up in jail and whatever. But I guess that it’s really interesting how your childhood [00:51:00] influences you, forms you. Yeah, yeah. Because what I saw then, because then I went to private school and then grammar [00:51:05] school. So it was completely it was only until seven that I was in that kind of environment, that abbeywood environment, [00:51:10] but it formed me enough for me to like it. You recognise something of that, something that felt cool [00:51:15] and I left that environment. I was in these lovely, you know, and then when I saw that in Rishi and [00:51:20] I liked it and it was cool, it reminded me of maybe it reminded me of my dad, and if that’s weird. Um, but [00:51:25] dad was still around then.

Payman Langroudi: And he was super famous, super successful.

Manrina Rhode: Then Rishi became [00:51:30] famous, right? So I was 12 and Rishi was 15, and he got signed by Virgin. And I remember [00:51:35] like walking down East Ham in Southall, like the Indian areas and there being posters [00:51:40] of him on the wall and me just being like, now he’s never going to want me now. He’s famous like I wanted him [00:51:45] before he was famous. Um, and I wonder whether I think Rishi was a part [00:51:50] of me. I started exercising when I was 16 and I still exercise religiously. [00:51:55] It’s a big part of my life. And now I’m 45 and, um, you know, 29 [00:52:00] years of that. Is that 29 years? I don’t know. And I think that, [00:52:05] um, that it was because, um, I thought, Rishi will never want me. I need [00:52:10] to be perfect. And if I am, maybe he’ll notice me. Um, so maybe there was that in me. [00:52:15] And then I started working out when I was 16. And then by the time I was 18, I had, you know, [00:52:20] been working out by the time I got to uni and I started dating this older man. And, um, then they, they [00:52:25] called me Marina, the body road at uni, like Elder Body Macpherson. She was [00:52:30] a supermodel at the time. Um, because I was already working out and I’d always had my abs out and these tiny tops [00:52:35] and these low jeans and just be like, you know, because. And then then, fine, you work. Life moved [00:52:40] on. And I didn’t see Rishi for years, for the whole decade, probably through through my 20s. [00:52:45] Um, and then when I was 31, um, you know, I had this [00:52:50] thing in my head that my, my parents wanted me to get married. They wanted me to have an arranged marriage, and [00:52:55] they showed me, like, 150 men to marry. Maybe [00:53:00] I got 150 proposals. It was a lot of that. And [00:53:05] there’s this. And you were.

Payman Langroudi: Saying no to all.

Manrina Rhode: Of them? Yeah. So there was there was this there’s this book. Right. So I’m sick. [00:53:10] And at the Gurudwara, there’s a book and it’s called, you know, the, the, the wedding book. And in there [00:53:15] there’s all the eligible Sikh, uh, children and, [00:53:20] uh, they and in there. So I’m in there as this five foot five Sikh Punjabi [00:53:25] dentist from a nice family. So it was like an obvious, uh, proposal [00:53:30] if you’re not looking at very much. And that’s your criteria. That’s basically the criteria. She’s average height, she’s an average build, and she’s got a nice [00:53:35] job. Um, and she’s got a nice, nice family. Well, like a well respected family. So there was a lot [00:53:40] of proposals that came in. And then I had this criteria, um, that, that, [00:53:45] um, I wanted these five essays, which were the. This is really personal. Now, I really [00:53:50] don’t like them, but there you go. There’s podcast. There you go. So I wanted someone who was six foot, [00:53:55] who was Sikh, who had a six pack, who was sauna. So good looking, sauna, good [00:54:00] looking, good looking, and Sienna, which meant intelligent. So he needed a degree. So I had these five essays. [00:54:05] And so when these guys applied, these families applied through this Gurudwara book. If they weren’t the five [00:54:10] essays, I would just reject them because there were too many applicants. So it was like, I may as well [00:54:15] have this criteria. And it’s ridiculous because look who I married. You know, he was Sikh, but you know, he didn’t [00:54:20] have a degree. Like I think he was handsome, but he wasn’t tall. He was like five foot nine max. [00:54:25] Um, so he wasn’t, you know, he didn’t have a six pack. He didn’t exercise. He wasn’t any of these things. [00:54:30] Um, but.

Payman Langroudi: By the time you got married. Yeah, he was already famous.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. He’d got [00:54:35] he was famous from the age of 15. He was signed by Virgin Records. You know, he’d built the Rishi Rich, [00:54:40] uh, project, like with Jay, Sean and Juggy. He had his own record label. [00:54:45]

Payman Langroudi: So then that world.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, we just got different worlds. Yeah, he’d made his world. [00:54:50] I’d made my world. But then.

Payman Langroudi: But then you went into that world.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. So I’d been pushing myself to be known as this top [00:54:55] cosmetic dentist. And like I was saying, pushing, pushing, pushing in my career. And he’d been pushing, pushing, pushing in his career. [00:55:00] And then we both turned up at this. So with this whole story, my mom had said, get, you [00:55:05] know, you’ve got till you’re 30 to keep saying no to all these boys. And by 30, if she’s not found [00:55:10] someone yourself, then you’ve got to let me find someone for you. And, um. And so then I was [00:55:15] okay. So then I was 31. So it was really time, because really, mom was going to get me married off. She wouldn’t have done that. [00:55:20] But that was the that was the thought. And and I’d also agreed to it that I’d let her do [00:55:25] that. Like I’d let her, I’d marry her choosing. And then at 31, I went to this wedding and [00:55:30] and Rishi was there and I was like, well, she’s here like, [00:55:35] that’s nuts. I’ve not seen him for ten years. And there was a big queue of people because Rishi was there [00:55:40] and he was a celebrity. It was a big deal that he was at this wedding. It was a queue of people that wanted to meet him at the wedding. They left the wedding to [00:55:45] queue to meet him. And I walked in with my mum and he saw me and he said hi. And then [00:55:50] he, um, he left the queue of people to come to me and my mum to say hello, and I was like, what’s [00:55:55] going on here? Does she like, remember me? And is he acknowledging me? Like giving me importance here? [00:56:00] And he was like, hey man, I haven’t seen you for a long time.

Manrina Rhode: I was like, nice to see you. And then we went. I was like, okay, see you later. [00:56:05] And then he sat down with his mum. I sat down with my mum and then the DJ like made an announcement that we’ve got Rishi rich [00:56:10] in this wedding today. We just want to acknowledge that he’s he’s at this wedding and Rishi is on his [00:56:15] phone and the guy’s like talking about how amazing he is. And he just kind of looks up from his phone and looks at me, [00:56:20] um, and kind of like, winks at me. And I was like, why is he looking at me like this? What is going [00:56:25] on here? Um, and then Rishi got up and he said, I’m leaving. Um, but can I take your number? [00:56:30] I was like, yeah. And he took my number. And then he messaged me, I don’t know, very [00:56:35] soon after I said, let’s hang out. I haven’t seen you for ten years. Let’s let me I don’t really know you. [00:56:40] Let’s let me find out about you. And I was like, okay. And he didn’t know anything about me, but I guess he just [00:56:45] liked the way I looked. And, um, and then we [00:56:50] got engaged three months later and we got married three months after that, so. And then we moved [00:56:55] to America. Wow. So it was a real whirlwind. But for me, there was no question because I’d been in love [00:57:00] with him since I was seven.

Payman Langroudi: So when you got to America and it was a whole other world, it was nuts. [00:57:05]

Manrina Rhode: So this was nuts in itself. Like Rishi’s big aim in life was this guy Teddy [00:57:10] Riley, right? So he looked up to Teddy Riley. Teddy Riley was the lead guy in Blackstreet. He’d [00:57:15] made Michael Jackson’s Dangerous album. He had nine Grammys and he was like the big like the guy that Rishi [00:57:20] just looked up to in life, like, just frigging loves him and Teddy. We bumped into [00:57:25] Teddy, um, at an event, like, we were somewhere, and big Mike knew him, and big Mike [00:57:30] was from New York, and he knew Rishi. And so I’d been thrown into this British Asian celebrity world. [00:57:35] So I got married and it was awards and events and photo shoots, and they would bring like [00:57:40] £1 million worth of diamonds in suitcases and put them on me for me to wear somewhere. And Rishi was being flown [00:57:45] around the world for lifetime achievement awards, and he’d fly me with him. We’d go first class and he would [00:57:50] like. I remember he’d got a lifetime achievement award in Canada and he went on stage, and then he was like, this is for my wife. And he got [00:57:55] me up on stage and I was like, this is nuts. We had VIP everywhere we went. We couldn’t go to any event without [00:58:00] having our own locked off section so Rishi wouldn’t be disturbed. We couldn’t leave the house without being photographed. [00:58:05] You know, Rishi was parking outside Harrods and someone’s like taking photos and putting it on Twitter saying, oh, [00:58:10] Rishi Rich can’t park your Beemer then or, you know, whatever it was. What was your feeling?

Payman Langroudi: Was your was your feeling now [00:58:15] you were living that life that you were dreaming of when you were seven years old. Was your feeling like on [00:58:20] fire amazing? Yeah. Or was it or was it that it’s not all I thought it was gonna be?

Manrina Rhode: Oh, no, it was amazing. [00:58:25] It was amazing. I love that make him make up, clothes, photos, photoshoot. [00:58:30] Oh, yeah. Celebrity. Oh, yeah. It was, it was amazing. And it was my my husband. [00:58:35] It was even better. I didn’t even have to be the celebrity. He made me a celebrity by default. We became the Posh and [00:58:40] Becks of this British Asian world. And, um, it was just awesome. [00:58:45] But then. Yeah. So Teddy. Then Teddy signed Rishi and this [00:58:50] was Rishi’s biggest dream in life come true. So we moved to America, but [00:58:55] that was what my story was leading. So that’s why we went, um, because we moved into a music academy, into [00:59:00] Teddy’s house in America. And then I was living with Blackstreet. And [00:59:05] like, all these people coming, like P.diddy sending a helicopter to pick Teddy up and Destiny’s Child coming. [00:59:10] All these people who these musicians who had grown up listening to were suddenly part of, like our of our everyday life [00:59:15] and actually just really wanting to get in with Rishi because they believed that India was the next [00:59:20] big market. And so they just felt like that was their way in there. Um, by [00:59:25] by by kissing his ass.

Payman Langroudi: And so how [00:59:30] did it go wrong?

Manrina Rhode: Um. Uh oh. [00:59:35] Um, so my dad became terminally ill [00:59:40] in England, and I needed to come back [00:59:45] to the UK. This, this this is a whole hour in itself. If you want to sit in a therapy session and talk about why my marriage failed. [00:59:50] But I think in in a nutshell, I needed to come back to the UK [00:59:55] because my dad was dying and I needed to be around him and support my family. And [01:00:00] by that stage, we’d been in America for two years, and I felt like we could come back [01:00:05] for six months or however long my dad was going to stay with us, um, and then go back [01:00:10] And Rishi couldn’t do that, and [01:00:15] that just ended up being the end of.

Payman Langroudi: Us wouldn’t do that. [01:00:20]

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, because he couldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: But you do you think he could?

Manrina Rhode: I hoped he would, and I couldn’t. [01:00:25] I couldn’t make that decision. You can’t choose between your dad and your husband. And maybe if you do need to choose, you need to [01:00:30] choose your husband. But.

Payman Langroudi: But that was the first crack that you felt.

Manrina Rhode: I think that’s what it was. It was like I’ve lived [01:00:35] my whole life to be in Rishi’s life. Rishi is an amazing man. Um, but [01:00:40] he has been famous since he was 15 and everyone in his life is his yes man. And [01:00:45] to be in his sphere is to be part of his life and to go [01:00:50] along with whatever he wants to do. And that’s fine, because it’s fun. Um, but [01:00:55] he did. What he hasn’t ever learnt is to give someone [01:01:00] to not do what he wants to do for somebody else. It’s no bad thing. It’s just that he’s never had to do it. Uh, [01:01:05] he doesn’t have day and night. He doesn’t have weekends and weekdays. He just lives his life in his creative. He’s, you [01:01:10] know, ultra creative. Um. And so he couldn’t do it. He couldn’t let me go to be [01:01:15] with my dad. And he couldn’t come with me to be with my dad, and I couldn’t not be with my dad or support [01:01:20] my mom. It’s very, you know, dad couldn’t walk. Dad couldn’t talk. Um, he couldn’t [01:01:25] eat by himself. It was. It was. And now we’ll cry. But, yeah, it was too much. It was too much for me not to be able to support my [01:01:30] my family in that time when all I was doing in America was having a party. Sure. Richie was [01:01:35] working. I was even working, you know, I was just going.

Payman Langroudi: To party feeling. Did that leave you with, though? As far as I mean, did you feel [01:01:40] like you’d failed somehow, or did you feel what did you feel?

Manrina Rhode: Definitely. I think my divorce [01:01:45] to my, to me felt like a failure, especially being such a, like overachiever in life [01:01:50] and always wanting to do everything to.

Payman Langroudi: Feel like it was the first time you’d really failed. Yeah, I think.

Manrina Rhode: So, yeah, I think it was. I [01:01:55] think that was really hard for me. It was hard for me to publicly admit, and especially because I didn’t even believe in divorce. [01:02:00] You know, I went into my divorce and said, I went into my marriage. Sorry, believing I’d say it all the time, like, [01:02:05] I will do anything in my power to make this work. So there’s no way that my marriage will ever fail. And I [01:02:10] actually would have just followed Rishi to the end of the earth. Um, but I couldn’t. [01:02:15] I couldn’t do that, you know? I couldn’t not be there for my family when they needed [01:02:20] me. That’s just for six months of my life. And when I. When I was just partying, that’s the thing.

Payman Langroudi: Now, in retrospect, [01:02:25] you see, do you see that lesson as a valuable one, that you learned that failure? I mean, I always [01:02:30] worry about my my son hasn’t failed properly yet. You know, he’s he’s just done very well at [01:02:35] everything he’s tried. It’s amazing. But I mean, he’s 17, but I know there’s going to be a moment. Yeah. [01:02:40] Like even let’s say everything goes fantastically well. He goes into Cambridge. Let’s say he comes top of his class, then [01:02:45] he goes PhD. Then there will, there’ll be a moment where he’ll fail. And [01:02:50] I find my brother was a real high achiever. And he he got that moment in his third year of medical school [01:02:55] and it hit him so hard. Mhm. But now when you look back on [01:03:00] that. Mhm. Do you feel like it was a lesson that has helped you. Helped [01:03:05] you now or. Of course no one wants to see their father ill and lose a [01:03:10] marriage. But do you see any benefit you got out of it.

Manrina Rhode: You know Payman, everyone says that that [01:03:15] that our journey in life is to, to learn to deal with these hardships. Right. They say that that that [01:03:20] life is stressful, these disappointments transforms you into this diamond and the pressure [01:03:25] of coal and blah, blah, blah.

Payman Langroudi: You said before about soft times, soft people, you know, that whole thing.

Manrina Rhode: But why? [01:03:30] But I just think why? It’s absolutely ridiculous. I did not have really any hardship in [01:03:35] my life until I was 35, until this happened. All of this happened. And then all of this happened in the period of like four [01:03:40] years, you know, Rishi and my dad. And what happened with Rishi does not even compare [01:03:45] to what what it felt like losing my dad. Like it’s a small. The divorce is a small percentage [01:03:50] of of the pain and the loss of losing my father. Um, but, [01:03:55] um. And so I keep being told that. And, of course, I’m actually I [01:04:00] would almost go as far to say that I’m a completely different person at 45 than I was [01:04:05] at 35 before all of this happened. Um, and like, I look [01:04:10] back at that person that I was prior to all of this, and I almost don’t recognise her. And sometimes [01:04:15] I see her in other people, like, I see people who are just so happy and so carefree and [01:04:20] so light, and I think, and I recognise it, that that’s who I was. Um, because now [01:04:25] I’m quite a joyful person. Imagine what I was like before all of this happened. Like I was just floating. [01:04:30] Um, and it just feels like a distant memory that I have no idea how to get back to, um, [01:04:35] because I kind of carry, uh, the pain of all the things [01:04:40] that have happened since then, in the last ten years with me, every [01:04:45] day, which we all do. Yeah, right. We just learn to live with it. That’s what we’re learning to live with every day. Yeah. [01:04:50]

Payman Langroudi: What a story. What a what a story of ups and downs. You know, the highs [01:04:55] and lows in such a short period of time.

Manrina Rhode: Well not really. I think that divorce and losing parents is something [01:05:00] that happens to a lot of people in life. I don’t look at myself and think, oh, my life. And, you know, I’ve heard some [01:05:05] stories, especially recently. I mean, I’ve been talking to my teams about their stories and even just, you know, people around [01:05:10] me, the stories that some people have been through or that you read about in books, I know that my story is nothing. I’ve [01:05:15] not been through war. I’ve not really been through hardship. I’ve not been through abuse. I’ve not been through through any of those things. It’s just [01:05:20] pain, isn’t it, that that as humans we feel and maybe I feel quite a lot because I’m quite I’m [01:05:25] an empath. Like I feel things a lot. Um, and so probably I carry these [01:05:30] things with me, but I don’t for a minute feel like, uh, I deserve any special treatment for [01:05:35] my divorce or my loss of my dad.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move on. Let’s move on to do you call it drmr? [01:05:40] Yeah, but I call it doctor. Mr.. Uh, do people get that wrong? I got. [01:05:45]

Manrina Rhode: That let’s talk about I like.

Payman Langroudi: I like doctor Mr.. I think such a strong brand.

Manrina Rhode: Oh, it happens so [01:05:50] often. I remember when we were buying our furniture. So her home, it’s a cool brand. And they were like, oh, I was [01:05:55] there with my with my partner Chris. And they were like, oh, you guys are so cute. [01:06:00] And we were like, oh, why are we so cute? And they were like, it’s so cute how you’ve named your business doctor. Mr.. [01:06:05]

Payman Langroudi: Because of him. Yes.

Manrina Rhode: I was like, it is not a doctor. Mr.. [01:06:10] It’s not our business. It is Doctor Marina Road, and it’s definitely Drmr. So [01:06:15] it happens all the time. I don’t like it that people assume. People assume it’s his business because [01:06:20] they think it’s mine and his together.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s a cool brand. Full stop. I mean, I know you’ve put it on products as well. Yeah. Like [01:06:25] doctor Mr.. So cool. Yeah. Um, let’s talk about products first. Yeah. Because products [01:06:30] are hard. I mean, I can tell you how hard products are, right?

Manrina Rhode: You’ve done amazingly.

Payman Langroudi: Well. Products are [01:06:35] difficult and and often people you know. I come across dentists every day who wants his [01:06:40] own line of toothpaste or bleaching, even though a lot of dental [01:06:45] practices or group practices try to make their own bleaching system or whatever. And people underestimate how [01:06:50] difficult even one tube of something is. So when I saw your line [01:06:55] came out with, oh, on day one, you came out with five products, is it 5 or 6 products? [01:07:00] And I remember as soon as I saw that, I thought, oh good, that’s that’s [01:07:05] a big risk. Yeah. Big knowing knowing what I know about minimum order quantities, [01:07:10] about formulation, even goddamn cardboard. Yeah. People don’t realise [01:07:15] there’s 100 decisions to be made about cardboard and finish and all that. Yeah. And clearly you’d had professionals [01:07:20] on it. Mhm. Big risk. Big risk right. Mhm. How did that go. [01:07:25] Tell me about it.

Manrina Rhode: So I’ve been an associate at a high earning [01:07:30] associate. I had been at that stage for 18 years. So I had some cash. [01:07:35] Yeah I had cash. You know even now with my clinic everyone’s like how did you find it? Who funded it then? Like everyone was, [01:07:40] assumes there’s a man behind it, like there’s no man behind it. It’s been my hard work behind it. And so I’ve [01:07:45] got I’ve got something. Something to invest. And what better to invest in than, than your own brand and your own company. [01:07:50] Yeah. Um, I think so. The way it came about was, um, I’d been doing a lot of work [01:07:55] with apogee, like I was their clinical ambassador. And actually, that was, you know, that was an amazing thing. And it was amazing [01:08:00] during Covid and made really well during Covid on a bougie products because we could do these online consultations. [01:08:05] And I’d met this, this dermatologist, um, from, from [01:08:10] abroad at one of Bob Connor’s courses And we became friends. And [01:08:15] she said to me, you know, you do so much work with the Bahji and have you thought about setting [01:08:20] up your own skincare line? And I was like, I wouldn’t even have the foggiest which star I’m the same as all those [01:08:25] dentists. I’ve always had that in my mind, especially the toothpaste. Like, I really would like to create a very special toothpaste and [01:08:30] and have that something that I’ve created. And I was like, I wouldn’t have any idea where to start. And she was like, well, I’ll hold [01:08:35] your hand through it like, you know, if you want to do it. And so she did. And it was a process. And it was that [01:08:40] was the beginning of the brand. That’s how the dimmer came about. And the brand started and went to to a manufacturer [01:08:45] of skincare products and said, like, these are the products that I want to create. What sort of, you [01:08:50] know, supplies do you have? Can you do this? Can you change this? About the chemical formula? Can I speak [01:08:55] to your chemist? Can we can can we do this with it?

Payman Langroudi: How did you find that manufacturer?

Manrina Rhode: Through this lady [01:09:00] that she knew. She knew? Yeah. She was like an industry person. Uh, she’s. She was a dermatologist [01:09:05] because she had her own skincare line. So she had one. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So she knew a lot about it. And then she said, okay, now you need a designer. [01:09:10] And then I spoke to my patients. And then through there I got my designers and my patients really stepped up for me. [01:09:15]

Payman Langroudi: Packaging design.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. Branding design, packaging design, the trademark, um, [01:09:20] all of the trademark lawyers and all of this. Um, so I kind of reached out to my network and [01:09:25] then, um, and then created these five products and thought, okay, I’m going to do it. [01:09:30] I’m going to, you know, and I’m very much that D personality. He’s just like, I made a decision, I’m going to do it and it’s all going to be fine. [01:09:35] And also I trust everything’s going to be fine because my dad made me believe that. And so I kind of constantly brainwashed [01:09:40] by that which, which encourages me to always to push further and then realised, [01:09:45] um, how difficult marketing a skincare line is [01:09:50] and differentiating differentiating yourself from other people when you’re not a dermatologist. [01:09:55]

Payman Langroudi: It’s a mature market as well. I mean, I think you’d have a better chance with toothpaste.

Manrina Rhode: Definitely. [01:10:00] And dentist. Yeah, exactly. As a dentist and with a reputation that I have, I could come in as the industry [01:10:05] expert. But as soon as you go in as a cosmetic dentist who does been doing skincare [01:10:10] for a long time, but I’m selling the skincare line. Then, um, as I started talking to people [01:10:15] and looking at the amount of money I’d need to invest in then marketing. So the ongoing costs around trying to push [01:10:20] large amounts of product. Um, you know, I had a friend who was a buyer at the time for, [01:10:25] for Harvey Nicks, and I had someone who was a buyer at Harrods. And so I spoke to all of them and said, okay, you [01:10:30] know, can we get in? What can we do about this? And then it was a really bad time because it was during Covid. And they were actually, um, [01:10:35] in a way, it was a good time, like the lead up to it, because Covid gave me time to really focus on the skincare [01:10:40] brand. And it’s so interesting that you said about packaging because there’s like, you know, there’s so many pictures and and posts [01:10:45] and stories I’ve told about that time during Covid, sitting in that lovely weather and my mom’s garden just for [01:10:50] hours, staring at the packaging and this, this, this, you know, I never would have had time to do, really, [01:10:55] in my normal life. But I did because we had nothing else to do. And so I could get all of that finished. [01:11:00] But I think, yeah, once I created those products, I realised, um, that [01:11:05] this wasn’t going to be something that was going to be easy to put into a mass production market. And actually, [01:11:10] I’d be much better just keeping this as something optimised for my Instagram [01:11:15] followers and for my patients and, um, and not trying to shift large amounts [01:11:20] of product. So obviously we had the product that we’d already created and we we have, you know, obviously done repeat [01:11:25] orders since. But I’m not going to pretend that my product is a really big part of my business. That’s [01:11:30] a really big money-maker for me.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, number one, number one, Harvey Nicks and Harrods. Yeah. Hardly anyone makes money.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, [01:11:35] yeah, it was only about the prestige of it. Yeah. I mean, I know I used to be the dentist there. That’s why we came out. And [01:11:40] I would never go in with my own brand.

Payman Langroudi: They tend to be marketing things, putting. Putting your product in Harvey Nicks and hers. [01:11:45] And. But the other thing is, with product, it tends to be a mass market thing, you know? I mean, I [01:11:50] was I was pleased to see the price of your product. Yeah. Because the biggest mistake people make is making them too cheap. [01:11:55] Yeah. And then then it’s a total nightmare because, you know, you have to sell literally millions of [01:12:00] product. And but every time someone comes to me and it happens [01:12:05] all the time, I give a big health warning. Big health warning. I mean, we’ve been in [01:12:10] business 24 years. We have two toothpastes. It’s not like we have a massive range of flavoured. [01:12:15] And believe me, I’ve had all sorts of ideas on toothpaste. Yeah, both. Both fun ideas [01:12:20] and clinical ideas and so on. But it’s difficult. It’s not easy making money in products [01:12:25] at all. No, but, but, but if.

Manrina Rhode: You can make it. What a great way to make money.

Payman Langroudi: Well yeah. But [01:12:30] but at the same time, you know, people would say that about dentistry, right? People would say about all sorts of things. I [01:12:35] mean, the interesting thing is, you know, dentists start a practice [01:12:40] within six months in profit often. Mhm. Um, no product. [01:12:45] I mean, unless you’ve been super lucky to have some celebrity, something [01:12:50] happen to that product. No product is in profit within six months. No product often [01:12:55] 4 or 5 years of losses before they find the right moment, the right situation [01:13:00] to to make it hype up, you know. Um, and people, people who do [01:13:05] products are aware of that. Yeah. But as dentists, we’re not as dentists. We’re so used to [01:13:10] the thing being in profit on day one that as soon as it isn’t in profit, you think, oh, it’s never going to work. [01:13:15] And I find we give up too quickly because of that. Yeah. Then you’ve got issues. [01:13:20]

[TRANSITION]: Like.

Payman Langroudi: Use.

[TRANSITION]: By.

Payman Langroudi: Dates.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And minimum order quantities. [01:13:25] Yeah. And, you know, if you have to make 20,000 of something and [01:13:30] it has to be sold by this time next year. Yeah, that’s a lot. That’s a lot of stuff. Yeah. [01:13:35] Yeah yeah. So yeah a big health warning for anyone, by the way. I mean I had [01:13:40] Connor Bryant in my in where you’re sitting right now. And the way that guy was thinking [01:13:45] and the products, that guy was bringing up the engineering around it. You know, sometimes [01:13:50] you know, the right guy, the right person, the right situation. Absolutely. You know, and I think.

Manrina Rhode: It needs [01:13:55] to be a full time job rather than you can’t be a clinical dentist like me. And then, you know, my my passion is clinical [01:14:00] dentistry. Everything else that has come in the last few years has been a by-product of that. But at the end of the day, [01:14:05] my happy place is being a clinical dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And you know, the other thing is a lot of times you [01:14:10] feel like I want to be the kind of dentist that does X. For the sake of the argument, [01:14:15] I swore on your I was on your website and it was things like, uh, dietitian on site or something. So on site. [01:14:20] Yeah. When, when you break it all down. Yeah. You’d realise that the profit [01:14:25] is in the veneers right now. Maybe the dietitian and the whatever else [01:14:30] coach, body.

Manrina Rhode: Coach and DNA.

Payman Langroudi: Testing keeps those veneer cases coming in. But the profits in the [01:14:35] veneers, you know, and I often think about Invisalign, you know, that the biggest company in dentistry right now. Yeah. [01:14:40] Are they bothering doing composite and, you know, anything else? No, they’re doing a [01:14:45] liner. So they’ve just moved into bleaching interestingly. But but you know, they’re doing aligners. They’re doing aligners [01:14:50] very, very, very well. You know that that they could easily go in 12 different directions, but [01:14:55] they’re not. Let’s move on. So the practice itself. Mhm. Tell me about what [01:15:00] you thought it was going to be like to set up this practice. And what was it actually like. Yeah. [01:15:05]

Manrina Rhode: I was so clear. You talk about product. Let’s talk about opening a clinic. [01:15:10]

Payman Langroudi: You’re blessed. Right. Because you had some money behind you. I hope you didn’t spend it all on the product, but you had some money [01:15:15] behind you.

Manrina Rhode: I spent it all. All of the practice had already budded out. Go [01:15:20] on. Um, you keep saying, like about being blessed, but [01:15:25] I think, like, even at the beginning, when we opened the podcast and you said, oh, you’ve had a really blessed career or something, [01:15:30] but it’s not blessed. It’s like really hard work. It’s like a work ethic that’s been I don’t think any [01:15:35] of it was luck. I think all of it was just such so much hard work behind it that I don’t feel like [01:15:40] any of it fell. It fell into my lap.

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t mean it like that. I didn’t mean it like that.

Manrina Rhode: It was just. Yeah. Thanks. [01:15:45] Um. So, um. Yeah, I, I’d saved a fair amount. [01:15:50] Uh, ready? So I didn’t have to take, um, big loans to build my squat. [01:15:55] Uh, to build my dream squat. So I didn’t cut any corners. I built this beautiful clinic [01:16:00] of very expensive materials. You know, it was another 20 grand for the resin floor. I [01:16:05] got the resin floor, like, you know, wherever the vision was, it taken me 20 years to build a clinic. [01:16:10] I’d be talking about building my dream clinic since I was 25, and I built it at 43. [01:16:15] So, you know, it taken it taken too long.

Payman Langroudi: Every dentist has [01:16:20] got a dream clinic in their head. Right. So. And this one, it’s in Knightsbridge. Yes. So I guess from [01:16:25] your London sleep, I live there. Yeah. You live there anyway. Yeah. It’s not a shopfront. I know, I’m sorry [01:16:30] I haven’t been there, but. No, that’s okay. It’s in a, like a building.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, it’s in a building.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So [01:16:35] go on the process. The process. Let’s, let’s start with where it was going to be finding the site. Yeah.

Manrina Rhode: So [01:16:40] yeah, I mean I think, I think the way I did things was really interesting and I would be, I would, I would advise [01:16:45] it to other dentists who are thinking about setting up a squat. So what I did was, um, [01:16:50] I decided to first of all try out principle life, um, by renting a [01:16:55] space like they’ve got with until like until. Yeah. So that kind of did until before until existed. [01:17:00] Um, and decided to rent a space and build my clinic and have my own list and my own [01:17:05] team, um, without, um, overheads. So I started an so there was a nearby dentist [01:17:10] who I’d met through the women’s dental network. Yeah. And, um, I remember her saying that she [01:17:15] was in hospital two days a week in her clinic was empty. So I contacted her and said, how would you feel about [01:17:20] setting up an associate agreement with me where you don’t pay me, but I pay [01:17:25] you. And I will take over your surgery two days a week, and I’ll brand it with rental thing. Yeah, [01:17:30] it was a rental. It was an associate agreement, which meant I didn’t need CQC or any. You know, these. I needed [01:17:35] some insurances, but not all of them.

Manrina Rhode: And, um, and so she was [01:17:40] kind of like, oh, is this legit? Is this something. And I was like, people do it. And like, since then I’ve heard Sandeep Kumar’s story and he did [01:17:45] it as well, many, many years ago. So she asked around and people said, yeah, you know, it does happen. And [01:17:50] asked if Chatwin said that he’d done it as well. So she started getting some reassurance that [01:17:55] this is something people do. And she agreed to let me rent out her clinic two days a week. So I feel [01:18:00] like that was such a brilliant decision that I made, because I cut down my associate job from three days a week to [01:18:05] two days a week, and I rented this clinic two days, two days a week. And then I had still had a day to do [01:18:10] admin. Um, and she started off doing all the roles myself. So, um, [01:18:15] I was working with a temp nurse at, uh, at London Smog Clinic at the time anyway. And so I [01:18:20] said to that temp nurse, come and temp with me when I’m working there. So I have the same nurse all week. Um, and [01:18:25] I did my own administrative booking patients in. And how did.

Payman Langroudi: You get the patients? [01:18:30]

Manrina Rhode: So, um, my, my business is all about the new patient. So even at the London [01:18:35] Small Clinic, about 80% of the patients that I saw came contacted the clinic for me. [01:18:40] They they called up the social. The social. Yeah. So the reputation I built for myself, either from [01:18:45] word of mouth because there’s 20 years of my veneers out there and um, from so word of mouth referrals [01:18:50] and from social media, but very much so from Instagram. Um, people say, oh, if Instagram [01:18:55] closed down, oh, you know, what would happen to your life? And it’s all a big joke. But like, literally what would happen [01:19:00] to my business? Um, our clients right now come from all over the world, um, because of my, my Instagram presence. [01:19:05] And so they find me there, and then they’re sold on me there. You know, we had a patient [01:19:10] recently at Drmr who, uh, found six cosmetic dentists around the world, went to see [01:19:15] all of them for a consultation out of them, decided to to have his teeth done with me. Flew, flew down from New York. [01:19:20] I did his veneers for him. Um, and then now I’ve just done his wife’s teeth as well. She also flew down from New [01:19:25] York and we did them. So, um, you know, that’s how they find you, right? [01:19:30] That’s how they’re looking for the world experts. They’re looking on social media, and we we I very much [01:19:35] position myself there as that.

Manrina Rhode: And that’s because now because of the 20 years of grafting that I did, [01:19:40] of sitting on these boards and writing these lectures and doing these lectures and writing these these journals and editor [01:19:45] committees and judging these awards and all these things you’ve done in dentistry. It builds up your presence on Google [01:19:50] as well. So you put Marina into Google in the first three pages. Is about me also helps that Marina is [01:19:55] a really uncommon name. So so then they kind of look and what they come on one platform, but once [01:20:00] they start deep diving, they find there’s all this stuff that keeps telling them that I’m the expert. So so [01:20:05] I had these patients that were contacting London Smile anyway and asking for me. First of all, I asked, um, [01:20:10] I kind of realised that and then said to Tim, oh said to my boss at the time, can we change my percentage for these patients [01:20:15] that are that are asking for me because I was on this, this sliding scale down from 35%, um, up [01:20:20] to 50. And he was like, no, that’s not going to work for the business, which I understand now [01:20:25] as a principle why that wouldn’t work with with London overheads. Um, but then just thought, well, it’s a it’s a missed opportunity [01:20:30] if I don’t try and, you know, do this for myself and also, you know, if [01:20:35] we really want to get deep here, uh, again something that I don’t know that I’ve talked about is that, that that maybe, [01:20:40] um, I had limited myself because I had a belief, um, [01:20:45] that I needed to, to be an associate and leave that time in [01:20:50] my life for a husband and children.

Manrina Rhode: So I didn’t want to get so busy in my own [01:20:55] business or become such a power, you know, power businesswoman, which I knew I could be. Um, [01:21:00] and let that take away from from me achieving those goals because I didn’t have time for it or I was [01:21:05] too stressed for it or whatever. So because that’s been such an important thing for me. Um, and but then I think [01:21:10] by the time I kind of hit 40 and that was like during Covid, so then everyone was [01:21:15] having these mind opening things and I kind of thought, okay, you know, I can’t put my business [01:21:20] career or my entrepreneurial career on hold. And by then I started dabbling in the skincare line and got a bit of a [01:21:25] taste for it, created this brand and then launched my course as well and thought this is going really well. You [01:21:30] know, my course sold out like for a full year immediately. And um, I [01:21:35] wanted.

Payman Langroudi: To do the clinic.

Manrina Rhode: I wanted to do the clinic and decided it was time to not put myself [01:21:40] this on hold for that. Let’s just do this. And then there are people that do everything and I can do it and let’s just [01:21:45] do it. Makes sense. So yeah. So I don’t know what I was where I was going with this, but yes. Then I rented the two spaces. My patients were [01:21:50] coming in anyway, booked them in myself. It was a bit strange for them because I was the receptionist. Yeah I was, [01:21:55] I have done every role in my clinic.

Payman Langroudi: Did it turn to okay, now I want the super place.

Manrina Rhode: The place I started looking, [01:22:00] so I started renting Claire’s okay. Yeah, this is working. I’m making really good money. Not sharing my [01:22:05] my my take home, my gross with my principle anymore. And just paying this rent, you know, 400, [01:22:10] £450 rent a day. Um, but taking 20 grand a day, like, you know, it was [01:22:15] it was nuts. And, um, and then, um. [01:22:20]

Payman Langroudi: Found the site.

Manrina Rhode: With difficulty, so knew that I wanted to not be [01:22:25] a shop front. I wanted to have a, I wanted to stay in Knightsbridge because I lived there, and that’s my hood. Um, [01:22:30] and it’s easy to commute from Heathrow and for whatever reason, is my heard. Yeah. And, [01:22:35] um, wanted to not be shop front because it’s private. What we do, it’s cosmetic treatments, [01:22:40] and it’s not nice to have a shopfront like that. Patients want to be able to get in a discreet taxi and eat. And what I was building here [01:22:45] was an ultra luxury, high net worth environment, which was based around what [01:22:50] I what I’d experienced at London, but even more so I was like, okay, let me think back to London. Why did I when we [01:22:55] were in Harvey Nicks, we used to have a back end exit because, fine, we were in Harvey Nicks, but they needed a secret place to escape. [01:23:00] Okay, how am I going to have that secret space? Okay, how about if I’m on a first floor? How about if I’m on Brompton Road around [01:23:05] the corner? I knew that I wanted to be on a on a first floor, not on a shop front. I knew that I wanted to [01:23:10] have really high ceilings, and I knew that I wanted to have windows, because in my 20 years of my [01:23:15] career, I never had a window. And so that’s that was my criteria.

Payman Langroudi: Underestimate that, don’t they? [01:23:20] I mean, the four walls of a dental surgery, you spend hours and hours and hours on that. Yeah. So then, [01:23:25] okay, you found the place. You started doing it up. Found the place? Did everything go wrong as it does [01:23:30] when.

Manrina Rhode: You prices up? Yeah, it was a disaster. It was the most stressful.

Payman Langroudi: Did you overspend like, so much? [01:23:35]

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, twice as much than I planned to spend. And is that.

Payman Langroudi: Your advice now to tell people to plan that [01:23:40] it’s going to cost twice as much as you think I.

Manrina Rhode: Do. When they talk to me, I tell them that’s what happened. So either you can choose to [01:23:45] build a clinic where you’re not trying to build. I was trying to build the best of everything, right? You can just be [01:23:50] like, no, I’m going for the dream, a cheaper chair. I’m going to have lino. Like, either you just that’s your vibe for your clinic, and then [01:23:55] you’re going to offer cheap treatments as well and go for the mass market. And if you’re doing that, there’s no harm in that. And probably you [01:24:00] could stay within budget. But if you want to buy a stern Weber and you want to have voice activated blinds, and you [01:24:05] want to have, you know, sliding doors that open up into a secret room and all the things that I, that I wanted to have, [01:24:10] um, it’s not cheap and and yeah, it wasn’t cheap, so. Um. [01:24:15] And so.

Payman Langroudi: Then then. Okay. You open the doors.

Manrina Rhode: Oh. So was it the stress of off [01:24:20] building the squad and how horribly stressful it was? Like, I feel like, you know, I went [01:24:25] through the work itself. Yeah. The build, the build was horribly stressful. If you think these big [01:24:30] life events in my life were my divorce or my father died, then so can we put the build in there as well?

Payman Langroudi: What [01:24:35] kind of idea did you have about, you know, the variables around building a Dental?

Manrina Rhode: I had no idea. [01:24:40]

Payman Langroudi: So who helped you with that?

Manrina Rhode: I had to gather advice along the way from everyone and anyone that I could [01:24:45] just ask. The beauty is that I’m not scared to ask people like some people are, but I’m not. I’ll just pick up the phone. And as [01:24:50] much as I don’t expect people to be scared to ask me things, ask me whatever you like, whenever you like and I will [01:24:55] ask you whatever I like, whenever I like. And so I just thought, well, you’ve done it. How do you do this? I’ve got a friend, Mohanlal [01:25:00] Nathwani. He’s amazing and we work worked together at London many years ago, and we’ve been friends since. [01:25:05] And he’s got five clinics. And so I called him a lot. Like once I stopped calling him, he was a [01:25:10] bit like called me and he was like, are you all right? And I was like, I’m just settled. That’s why I’m not calling you every, you know, every week, like [01:25:15] having a breakdown. Because I didn’t know anything. It was such a massive learning curve. Um, [01:25:20] building a clinic. I never built anything in my life. So knowing how to build that, [01:25:25] knowing about CQC, no idea about CQC, like, you know, the requirement other than when we had an inspection and we had [01:25:30] to read the the policies. Um, but really no idea. No idea about managing a team, [01:25:35] no idea about how to interview and hire a team. Um, no idea about any of it. All [01:25:40] I knew how to be was a really awesome clinical dentist and an awesome on social media. [01:25:45] That is what I know how to do. The rest of it was so new.

Payman Langroudi: And also very different. Being [01:25:50] the boss to being one of the team members.

Manrina Rhode: So different.

Payman Langroudi: And you must have come across [01:25:55] that situation now.

Manrina Rhode: Such a learning.

Payman Langroudi: Curve. I mean, I always just think it can’t be very different because [01:26:00] as an associate, I used to really work for the boss, which I suppose you did too. But then as the [01:26:05] boss, it’s very different, isn’t it? You almost can’t get too close to your team. In a way.

Manrina Rhode: I had [01:26:10] no idea how to manage it. If managing team or understanding how to deal with them, like even [01:26:15] just things like they’re making these mistakes that for me like the most obvious thing in the world [01:26:20] and then not understanding that those things are obvious. Like, you know, you tell a team member [01:26:25] to do something and they just wouldn’t get it or they’d get it so horribly wrong and think that it was okay. I [01:26:30] couldn’t understand.

Payman Langroudi: It. So an example like an email, the way they wrote an email to a patient or something.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, something [01:26:35] like that. One dental nurse who gave the, um, gave the lab work from the [01:26:40] lab fridge and with it gave the the the box of Botox, you know, £500 worth [01:26:45] of Botox to the lab. And that’s a prescription item that’s worth £500, that’s now [01:26:50] gone off because it’s not in the fridge. But how did you do that? How did you pick up the Botox and not see [01:26:55] that that’s not lab work. Like, I can’t even imagine that being a thing. And then what do you do [01:27:00] about that? I’m not going to take £500 off his wage because he’s cost me £500 of material. [01:27:05] But. And how do I not get upset about that? I’m not going to get I’m not allowed to get upset about it. And I’m not allowed [01:27:10] to say that it’s incompetent because you’re not allowed to say someone.

Payman Langroudi: Someone in our team made a £20,000 mistake.

Manrina Rhode: Wow. [01:27:15]

Payman Langroudi: Um, and some of our users are still suffering with that mistake. And it was that [01:27:20] someone just didn’t check the size of something, you know? And and 20 grand later, we’re [01:27:25] just managing to fix that.

Manrina Rhode: One of my team have just made a £10,000 mistake. And, [01:27:30] like, what do you do with it? You can’t fire them. Or did you fire them over it?

Payman Langroudi: No, no no no. You know, the the [01:27:35] history was, uh, made up for it, but but you know, it’s one of those things. It’s one of those things. [01:27:40] By the way, your team still. What, 12 people?

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. 13.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Wait till it gets to 30 [01:27:45] or 40 people. Or, by the way, I was just at Alicante with all the group dentists.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, [01:27:50] the Dsos 400.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, 600 practices. Right. That [01:27:55] amazing in one sense. Right. But in another sense, when I’ve seen what can happen with 40 people. Yeah, yeah. [01:28:00] Stuff you had no idea.

Manrina Rhode: Stuff. Really clear guidelines.

Payman Langroudi: Stuff you had no idea about. Like I never thought there would [01:28:05] be bullying at enlighten. Oh, and there was bullying going on. I had no idea about sexual harassment. [01:28:10] I had no idea about it. Yeah.

Manrina Rhode: Someone came and said oh, so and so keeps, like touching me inappropriately or kissing [01:28:15] my forehead. And I’m like, what do I do with that? Like call her like, do you know what I mean? I never dealt with [01:28:20] any of these things before. The things I’ve had to deal with in the last two years, it’s all been a really [01:28:25] steep learning curve, which is very exciting, but really scary as well. Like in the during the build, uh, [01:28:30] like just the level of I’ve never experienced that level of chronic stress as I [01:28:35] did during that build. Like your.

Payman Langroudi: Builders. Where do you find them? Apollo. [01:28:40]

Manrina Rhode: So they were great. You know that.

Payman Langroudi: That in itself, you never hear that. You never hear. My builders [01:28:45] were great. Oh, yeah. So you’re watching.

Manrina Rhode: Guys you.

Payman Langroudi: Actually had you actually had a better build [01:28:50] than most. They were really.

Manrina Rhode: Delayed. I had to postpone two CQC inspections and they they made me [01:28:55] pull my own hair out, like, scream like I was just like, what do I do? Just one shoot me. [01:29:00] Like I love my life and I don’t want to end it, but that just let me. Let me free because [01:29:05] of Apollo. So, you know, let’s not get get it twisted. But they were great and the results [01:29:10] were great and the end results great. And everyone says that too. They’re like, by the time you get to the end of it and you see what you’ve created, [01:29:15] it’s like giving, you know, giving birth to a child, apparently, that, you know, you don’t, uh, you [01:29:20] don’t, you don’t you don’t feel it. You just think, okay, we went through all that, but we got through it. And actually the result was great. [01:29:25] So I’m really pleased with what they did.

Payman Langroudi: It’s still early days, right? How long?

Manrina Rhode: Two years in.

Payman Langroudi: Oh it’s nothing. It’s nothing. [01:29:30] Yeah. Um, now I want to talk about your course. Yeah. What made you want [01:29:35] to teach? Was it that so many people were asking you already and you were teaching? [01:29:40] Um. By the way, it’s a thrill teaching, right? Oh, it’s awesome.

Manrina Rhode: It’s so awesome. So I was so [01:29:45] supported throughout my career by Surinder and then by Tiff and then by Tim Bradstock, Smith Qureshi, [01:29:50] Smith, like such massive mentors in my life that taught me so much. You know, [01:29:55] I saw Tim Bradstock Smith at an event last week, and I just had to go up to him and thank him [01:30:00] and be like, you know, I had no idea when I was your associate at London. Smile. For all those years and [01:30:05] everything you were doing, I had no idea what’s involved in principle life. I can’t believe how clueless I was and have [01:30:10] even I already had so much respect for you. I have so much respect for you now, seeing all that, all the [01:30:15] hats you wear and all the tabs you have open to keep a business running at that level. So, [01:30:20] um, yeah, they really supported me and I feel like I was really blessed, uh, throughout [01:30:25] my journey with that, that I had these, these supportive mentors that allowed me to do [01:30:30] the sort of dentistry that I wanted to do in a really a really supportive environment. I mean, a [01:30:35] classic example of of that is I did the Nobel Biocare year long implant course [01:30:40] and then placed one implant.

Manrina Rhode: And then, because I didn’t feel supported in that, never placed another implant. [01:30:45] And that was I won’t say that’s a year of my life wasted because I do restore implants, but that’s how [01:30:50] that’s what can happen. And I hear that story too much about people doing facial aesthetics courses, cosmetic courses, [01:30:55] like whatever it is, and they’re not doing anything because they’re not supported. So I guess the initial idea with my veneer [01:31:00] course, part of it was and it sounds like everyone was asking for it, but [01:31:05] everyone was asking for it. Like, you know, they would message me on Instagram and they’d say, do you teach this? Is there somewhere we could learn this? [01:31:10] And there really wasn’t anywhere in the UK that was offering a course that they could go to at the time. And [01:31:15] I’d done a lot of my education in the States. And so I thought, you know, I’d really like to teach [01:31:20] this. I’d really like I didn’t have anyone that I was mentoring. Did you have.

Payman Langroudi: Loads of photos already?

Manrina Rhode: Of course. [01:31:25] I’ve taken photos of every case I’ve done since 2003. Yeah, like that’s how many [01:31:30] photos I have.

Payman Langroudi: Thousands. Putting this course together. People again, underestimate what it takes to. [01:31:35] I mean, how many days is the course?

Manrina Rhode: It’s four days. I’ve just I, I shorten [01:31:40] lengthen the days in Shoreditch to three. But up until now it’s been four days. So we’re going to try the first cohort at three [01:31:45] days. But it’s been a four day course.

Payman Langroudi: Four days of teaching and you do a case. Yeah.

Manrina Rhode: Live patient [01:31:50] six appointments with a live patient all the way through the smile makeover.

Payman Langroudi: But they don’t all do a live patient.

Manrina Rhode: No, you would [01:31:55] love to bring that in. But for now they watch me. It’s small group teaching, and they come in the room with me. And then [01:32:00] we’ve got cameras set up on there so you can see it on the screens. And we really go through and live the things that go wrong [01:32:05] and the things that you can, you can, you know, so they can see. Because inevitably some drama always happens [01:32:10] during a video. It’s always, oh, what’s this, some blood. Oh there’s this. What are you going to do now? Oh, the veneer [01:32:15] dropped like into their mouth. What are you.

Payman Langroudi: Going to do? What does it cost the delegate to come on this four day course.

Manrina Rhode: £2,600 [01:32:20] for the three day course now. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:32:25] how many do you have?

Manrina Rhode: Well, I’m only going to run two next year, so it’s all changing [01:32:30] a little bit.

Payman Langroudi: Many. There’s not many spaces available.

Manrina Rhode: So what I was running three a year. Yeah. And [01:32:35] and there weren’t many spaces available because it was really important to me that it was small group teaching, and the people [01:32:40] that came out of the course were good, providing good small makeovers. [01:32:45] So what I didn’t want is to just it wasn’t a money making scheme. I don’t earn more from running designing [01:32:50] smalls than I do from working in clinic that day, but.

Payman Langroudi: Definitely not right.

Manrina Rhode: Definitely not. Well, yeah, [01:32:55] yeah definitely not. But what it does do is allows me to to [01:33:00] improve the level of cosmetic dentistry within the well, not even the UK because they come [01:33:05] from all over the world to learn. We’ve had delegates from Thailand, Italy, Holland, Dubai and all over. [01:33:10] So so yeah, there was that. But then I realised that it wasn’t enough [01:33:15] and I didn’t want to mass produce it. So what I did during Covid also was film [01:33:20] an online version so that delegates who were coming from all over the world could learn online, [01:33:25] but then filmed that in 2021 and haven’t launched it because they haven’t had time to. [01:33:30] I’m only getting around to putting that out now.

Payman Langroudi: Did you do that by yourself or did you have a partner?

Manrina Rhode: No, by myself [01:33:35] with a videographer.

Payman Langroudi: But your own videographer. It wasn’t like some firm came.

Manrina Rhode: No, everything I’ve done [01:33:40] is myself. Yeah. Nice. And, um. And then. And [01:33:45] then now I’ve just launched my my mentorship program, which is.

Payman Langroudi: Only for delegates. [01:33:50] Is that how it works?

Manrina Rhode: No, it’s really, really exciting. And it’s open to dentists around the world. [01:33:55] Yeah. Um, and what it is, is basically having me in your pocket, um, [01:34:00] in your phone. So, um, I spoke to this, this business coach, and he was like, oh, you know, you should mentor dentists [01:34:05] and you can charge them 50 grand a year. And then for that, you can just answer all their questions and support [01:34:10] them for one year and get, you know, you should offer this. And I was like, I don’t really want to do that. 50 [01:34:15] grand sounds like a lot of money. And I don’t like the idea of what that comes with. So yeah, no thank [01:34:20] you. Um, but I would like to mentor and support dentists because far too many of them, they come [01:34:25] through my face to face course. And they know that after they’ve done that, they can reach out to me and ask me questions. And we have our Facebook group. [01:34:30] But like, how do you really support them? How do you make sure that they’re continuing and they’re pushing and that they’re [01:34:35] doing these cases and they’ve got someone they can ask questions to. And also my delegates, like [01:34:40] they go through my courses. And then when I’d be running another course, you know, they’d message me and they’d have FOMO and be like, oh, [01:34:45] I wish I was there.

Manrina Rhode: Like at the end of the course, they’re like, what’s next? You know, what can we do now? So I was like, how do I support them? [01:34:50] So so I’ve set up this program. It’s a WhatsApp group for the dentists [01:34:55] that are accepted on to the program. And it’s I’m saying dentists. I wonder whether it should be dental therapists as [01:35:00] well. And potentially it could be um, there’s they can email my team and ask an unlimited number of [01:35:05] questions about how do you do this? How do you do that? Um, we’re going to have bi monthly zoom calls. [01:35:10] So Wednesdays at 7 p.m., we’re going to jump on zoom for an open mic session. And we’re going to go through cases or anything [01:35:15] they want to go through. Um, we’re going to have quarterly in-person meetings so we can [01:35:20] meet face to face. So in London we all get together and we’ll go through different parts that are important for [01:35:25] for the pillars of the course, which are mindset like creating a winning mindset, cosmetic dentistry. So [01:35:30] anything related to cosmetic dentistry and building a five part, five star practice. So how to provide that five [01:35:35] star service? Um, and I think there’s so many dentists who learn dentistry and were not taught [01:35:40] cosmetic dentistry at university.

Manrina Rhode: And then they come out and then they’re like, well, now what? How do I do cosmetic dentistry? [01:35:45] And this way they can ask questions. They can support each other. The principles in the you know, there’s also a lot an issue [01:35:50] with hiring at the moment. The principals can find their associates because they know they’re of the same mindset. The [01:35:55] associates can find their private jobs because, you know, there’ll be people there that are interested in cosmetic dentistry. [01:36:00] I hope that I build this cohort of dentists, of like minded dentists where they can [01:36:05] all support each other, where it’s very much not ego and not putting each other down, but all just having [01:36:10] each other’s backs and and moving forward together and hopefully also build a cohort [01:36:15] that as I build my other clinics, which obviously will happen with that plan. Yeah, definitely. Um, [01:36:20] that I can bring these dentists on board that have been within my mentorship program. Um, [01:36:25] and they’ll definitely be be incentives available for dentists who who stay for long enough. It’s £250 [01:36:30] a month, including VAT for the first 50 dentists. So it’s really affordable [01:36:35] and it’s jump in, jump out. So if they jump in and you know, if they’ve not got a good month or they’re going away for the month and they [01:36:40] don’t want to be in it, they just leave the mentorship program.

Manrina Rhode: Um, and then with that, they’ll get 20% off my face [01:36:45] to face courses and my online course modules that I’m launching. You know, they’ve I’ve just written a course [01:36:50] about gum filler. There is no course about gum filler in the world that anyone can find. Um, but [01:36:55] I learned this technique in America about six years ago, and I’ve been doing a lot of cases since, and people keep messaging [01:37:00] me and again, it’s like, oh, people keep messaging me, asking me to teach them, but they do. So I’ve written the course and [01:37:05] that will go up on the online module. Within this mentorship program, you get 20% off all that. So [01:37:10] if you even, you know, coming on one face to face, course you’re going to get it’s going to be worth however many months of [01:37:15] of mentorship. So I don’t know, I feel like it’s a way for me to be able to [01:37:20] support and help a large number of dentists. Um, and by helping [01:37:25] 50 dentists, you know, I can help thousands of patients and up the quality [01:37:30] of cosmetic dentistry in the UK or potentially around the world, um, by offering insights [01:37:35] into into the way that I do things, the way that I’ve evolved my practice in my 22 years experience. [01:37:40]

Payman Langroudi: And it’s a buzz, right?

Manrina Rhode: It’s really, really exciting. And if you could tell [01:37:45] when I just when you mentioned it just now that I got excited, it’s a buzz because I’m excited. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Teaching’s a buzz. Isn’t that about it? [01:37:50] I mean, I was talking to Basil Mizrahi. Mhm. Yeah. And I said to him what do you [01:37:55] like about teaching. And he said I like it when I put a case up and people’s mouths open. Yeah. [01:38:00] So he says he has a bit of ego about that. Yeah. And and that’s Basil Mizrahi now, [01:38:05] you know, he doesn’t need to have anyone but but it’s a buzz even.

Manrina Rhode: He likes to be told.

Payman Langroudi: Well, even he [01:38:10] likes to be.

Manrina Rhode: We all like to be told. Well done. Exactly.

[TRANSITION]: Exactly right.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I like that. [01:38:15] Um, if you do do other clinics, it does make sense that you go to the doctor, Mr. [01:38:20] Brand, that I love so much.

Manrina Rhode: What would the Mr. stand for? Does it.

Payman Langroudi: Just talk to Mrs. is the name [01:38:25] of the brand, but.

Manrina Rhode: Then that’s like it’s a man’s brand and it’s not.

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t matter. I mean if you let’s say you’re [01:38:30] opening one in Edinburgh and one in Dubai. Yeah. You can’t be in all of them. It can’t be doctor will be.

Manrina Rhode: Dmr [01:38:35] and and Del Mar could be derma. It can be dreamer. It can be you can call it doctor. [01:38:40] Mr.. But I feel like as as.

Payman Langroudi: You just don’t get.

Manrina Rhode: A feminist. Um, it wouldn’t make sense for [01:38:45] me to call my clinic doctor. Mr.. Why would there be a mr. in my title in a female owned business where [01:38:50] I am the sole owner of my business?

Payman Langroudi: I will tell you, it’s just a cool name.

Manrina Rhode: No, Payman. No. Just [01:38:55] no.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get on to our final questions and I’m going to try something new this time. [01:39:00] A bit of a bit of a sort of a quick fire, and then we’ll get to our actual final [01:39:05] questions. Best working day.

Manrina Rhode: The [01:39:10] best working day of my career ever. Yeah. Wow. I [01:39:15] mean, the first thing that comes to mind is, um. [01:39:20] I love doing full mouth cases. We block off seven hours for them, and I [01:39:25] do the upper jaw and the lower jaw, and in the middle we get our patients are fresh juice and [01:39:30] they’re my favourite because I go into a flow state and when they’re [01:39:35] booked in, I just love it because I know that for seven hours no one’s going to bother me. I’m gonna put my music on and I’m going to work on this patient’s mouth. [01:39:40] And, you know, the nurse gets into a flow with me. The patient just lets me get on with it, and it’s almost like meditation. [01:39:45] And then at the end of it, it’s almost like I emerge from it because I wasn’t even present. I was just there working [01:39:50] through intuitively what was the right thing to do. Um, there’s this beautiful smile. So [01:39:55] if I if I wanted to think of of all the full mouths I’ve done and which one was the best one, [01:40:00] that’s difficult. But, you know, the recent full mouths come to mind just and just how enjoyable [01:40:05] they were.

Payman Langroudi: So that that over, for instance, the day you opened your clinic or whatever, [01:40:10] you know, whatever other day.

Manrina Rhode: Uh, yeah. Because probably [01:40:15] the first working day of us opening our clinic was was exciting. I just love I love those film. [01:40:20] I love any of those formats. I love them when they’re in the diary. Like, for me, especially now we’re [01:40:25] running the business is really stressful when I know that I can go into that flow state and just get away from [01:40:30] everything. No one’s going to ask me any questions for those seven hours, and I can just and I’m actually [01:40:35] achieving something and creating something and doing probably what I’m best at in life. Like [01:40:40] probably porcelain veneers or the thing that not even I’m best at in dentistry, but probably the best at in life. Like it’s something. [01:40:45] I’m just very good at that.

Payman Langroudi: But these days, the way, the way you do them, it’s not the fit [01:40:50] day isn’t as exciting anymore because we already know what it’s going to look like. Yeah. Yes. The prep.

Manrina Rhode: Day. Yeah yeah yeah. [01:40:55] The prep days, that seven day, eight hour day. I’m thinking about prepping those teeth and getting in that that vibe [01:41:00] like, yeah, it’s worst day.

Payman Langroudi: Or if you want translate that to most difficult [01:41:05] patient, oh.

Manrina Rhode: God, I won one. There are probably many, but one comes to mind. [01:41:10] Um, I had this patient, and, um, she was seeing [01:41:15] this dentist at, um. I think she was seeing, I don’t know if it was at Kira’s [01:41:20] practice or somewhere. Um. And he moved to Edinburgh. He moved back [01:41:25] to Edinburgh, and, um, she wanted him to do her veneers and then she was like, oh, [01:41:30] he’s like, I can’t do them. I’m moving back to Edinburgh, I think. And then she said, oh, well, what lab do you use? And he was [01:41:35] like, oh, I use Precision Dental Studio. And then so she said, okay, I’ll call them and find out who I should go to. [01:41:40] Who should I go to my my videos? He said, I don’t know. So I’ve been working with precision for years. I love them. [01:41:45] And um, she called precision and said, oh, I need a dent veneer dentist. [01:41:50] And they were like, oh, you know, we get most of our work from, from Marina. And so you might want to go to her. [01:41:55] So she was like, fine. So she came to London Smile Clinic to see me. And she was like, oh, you’ve been recommended by precision [01:42:00] by, by your lab. And I was like, oh, wow, my lab must really love me. That’s nice. Um, and [01:42:05] so, um, this woman started working with her, and then as I got to know her, [01:42:10] I realised that that dentist probably didn’t move back to Edinburgh. He probably just didn’t want to see her. And then I kind [01:42:15] of realised, um, that, do my lab really love me or do they hate me because this woman was was [01:42:20] so difficult? But there was there was something, there was ego in it. And the ego was that my lab had [01:42:25] referred me this patient. And so I’m going to do it and I’m going to do a great job because it’s been sent to me by someone and they’ve never [01:42:30] sent me a patient before. What was the.

Payman Langroudi: Problem with her?

Manrina Rhode: She was she didn’t seem to understand [01:42:35] what I was saying. She had she was fixated on a certain thing and I was like, oh, just trust the [01:42:40] process. Trust the process. And typically, because I deal with with patients who are tense, like, [01:42:45] you know, people say that, oh, a patient fainted or a patient cried. I’m like, dude, like a patient faints. [01:42:50] In my surgery at least once a month, a patient cries at least once a month, if not more. It’s very common for my patients [01:42:55] to faint and cry, and not necessarily because of what I’m doing, just because it’s before I’ve even said or done anything. Because it’s [01:43:00] just that sort of environment like, you know, it’s so it’s such an emotional environment for them. And [01:43:05] um, so I think I kind of tried to explain to her what we were going to do with her veneers and the plan and [01:43:10] then and then went through, got her wax up done from, from precision. And then she came in on, on, on prep [01:43:15] day and then on prep day, I said to her, um, okay, this is the wax up, this is what we’re going to [01:43:20] do. And then she was like, oh, I don’t know about the laterals. I don’t think I really like the laterals. And I was like, okay, that’s fine. [01:43:25] That’s the whole point of this process. I’m going to put this on for you today. I’m not going to change it today because your [01:43:30] lips are going to be numb, but you’re coming back for your review tomorrow, and then we’re going to perfect everything in your mouth. And only once it’s perfect [01:43:35] will we get precision to make your your veneers. So we’ve got tomorrow. We’ve got lots of time to do that and we’ll sort that out. Then [01:43:40] she’s like, oh no, I’m just not sure about these laterals. I just, I just don’t know. And I was like, I understand that, but [01:43:45] it’s okay because I’m going to be able to change them for you. I won’t change them today because I don’t change fixated.

Payman Langroudi: And she wasn’t.

Manrina Rhode: She [01:43:50] wouldn’t understand it. And then, you know, eventually I was like, this is too difficult. And then I was like, [01:43:55] I can’t I can’t communicate with you. You’re not understanding what I’m saying, and you don’t trust [01:44:00] me, so I can’t do your veneers. And then she was like, But I’ve taken time off from work and you have to do my veneers. [01:44:05] And I was like, I don’t have to actually, and I’m not going to. So I’m really sorry. [01:44:10] We’re unable to communicate and I won’t be I won’t be doing your veneers today. And then I left the room and went to the back, [01:44:15] um, where the patients couldn’t get to. And then she just stood at reception for like, three hours saying, [01:44:20] I’m going to call the GDC. Wow. I’ve taken time off work for this. I was like, good luck. I [01:44:25] didn’t come out. But like I thought, good luck with the GDC, telling them that I refused to do your veneer case [01:44:30] rather than, you know, that I was insisting you have veneers and and you know, you’ve taken. [01:44:35] I’m going to I want the time back for the time I took off from work because you’re refusing to and all of this and that. And she just, you know, it was so [01:44:40] awkward for the whole team, and it was so awkward for the patients that were coming in to see the other clinicians. And it was just awkward that she [01:44:45] was stood there. And then there’s also kind of that awkward, like, how far, how nuts is she and how far is she going to take this?

Payman Langroudi: You [01:44:50] missed the the bullet. Really?

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. I’m glad I didn’t prep her. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, I don’t [01:44:55] know if that was the worst working day, but it was definitely one that always springs to mind as a memory of just like, oh. [01:45:00]

[TRANSITION]: This.

Payman Langroudi: Course you’ve been on.

Manrina Rhode: Oh, well, recently I went on that. Mastering [01:45:05] your Invisalign with Sandeep Kumar. Oh, yeah. And it really blew my mind. And then I read his book [01:45:10] and it blew my mind. And now we’re friends. And I really have a lot of respect for him. And it’s only all just happened in the last [01:45:15] year or so. Um, but I don’t know if that’s if it’s the best course I’ve ever been on, but [01:45:20] it’s the best course I’ve been on recently for sure. I’ve been on amazing courses in my life.

Payman Langroudi: What sticks out?

Manrina Rhode: Oh, [01:45:25] Pascal. Magnets. I also think about, like, when I went to LA with the BCD, the whole board went, we did that [01:45:30] course out there. And um, that changed some, some way that I practice obviously aesthetic advantage with Larry Rosenthal, [01:45:35] you know, back in 2004, flying in and out of New York for three years, um, learning my veneers [01:45:40] from him.

Payman Langroudi: Of course, you’re desperate.

Manrina Rhode: To go on Dawson and Occlusion. And Dawson was amazing. Sorry. [01:45:45] We’re all amazing back. I did them back then. 2004 a desperate to go on. I’d like to go on, [01:45:50] um, a course. Course? I tried to a course or spear or, [01:45:55] um. I think it was. Is it the Voice Academy that I registered for? Uh, was [01:46:00] it course, or is it spear that I registered for later this year? Um, I’ll tell you now. And, [01:46:05] um, there was a waiting list of 90. Yeah, of course, a waiting list [01:46:10] of 99 people ahead of me to to book the course a year in advance. You have to book the course three [01:46:15] years in advance to get on, to get an actual place on it. I was like, wow, you know what? But I guess the only [01:46:20] thing with it is that to do it, you have to go back to the beginning. So I’m like, I’ve been doing this for 22 years and you’re going [01:46:25] to make me go back to like occlusion. Yeah. You know, so that’s that’s going to be interesting once I’m finally accepted [01:46:30] onto that course. But I’m excited to go to Seattle and do that.

Payman Langroudi: Best piece of advice you’ve ever been given.

[TRANSITION]: Oh. [01:46:40]

Manrina Rhode: So many pieces. So many pieces of advice.

Payman Langroudi: Great [01:46:45] piece of advice. When you say best know it’s so difficult.

Manrina Rhode: When it’s best, it’s sort of pressure to get this right. Uh, [01:46:50] great piece of advice I’ve been given is, um, [01:46:55] uh, to take a moment to take in what’s going [01:47:00] on around you because live.

Payman Langroudi: In the present sort of thing.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. I just think otherwise life [01:47:05] would just. Yeah. Escalates into what? What you keep achieving and doing this and [01:47:10] now you’re doing that and this is going on and you’ve not. Yeah. It’s just not it’s being present isn’t it. It’s just being present. And for [01:47:15] a moment acknowledging what’s going on around you right now, because it’s those moments that then you can go back [01:47:20] to and remember and be like, oh yeah, that moment where I stopped and watched that. How amazing was that.

Payman Langroudi: Book [01:47:25] that changed the way you look at things?

Manrina Rhode: Oh so many. Um. [01:47:30]

Speaker4: Oh, [01:47:35] I’m reading this.

Manrina Rhode: Great book about happiness today that I started reading today. [01:47:40] Today? Yeah. That was I read.

Payman Langroudi: Power of Now.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: To [01:47:45] go with your right.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. I read a lot. All the time. Um. I love [01:47:50] The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho. I love all of Paulo Coelho’s books. Um, [01:47:55] I love, um, Tools of Titans. Um, I read that a [01:48:00] long time ago, but I remember really enjoying that. Um. So many. I could make you a list of [01:48:05] 100 books.

Payman Langroudi: Favourite bit of Dental kit or technique?

Manrina Rhode: My [01:48:10] favourite bit of kit is my 6844 prepping Burr. Burr. Yeah, I freaking love it, I [01:48:15] love it, it gives me joy just to look at it.

Payman Langroudi: Biggest dental bugbear? [01:48:20]

Manrina Rhode: Uh, dental community or dentistry? Dental. [01:48:25] What’s the biggest.

Payman Langroudi: Bugbear with dentistry?

Manrina Rhode: Dental dentistry. Dental community. [01:48:30] Bugbear is the egos. The egos really wind me up because [01:48:35] what are they so egotistical about? Like, get over yourself. You’re a dentist. You’re not frigging [01:48:40] saving the world. Um, and everyone thinks that they know how to do things better than everyone else. [01:48:45] They can’t just respect that we’re all out there doing the same job, hopefully to the best of our ability. [01:48:50] And can we just respect that? People do things in different ways and that’s what works for them. Um, yeah, that [01:48:55] winds me up.

Payman Langroudi: Favourite dental practice apart from your own?

Manrina Rhode: Ooh. [01:49:00] Oh, that’s really hard. Maybe [01:49:05] Angela’s Dental rooms in Wimbledon. Beautiful. So beautiful and so good. People. [01:49:10] Dave and Angela. Great team, great people, beautiful clinic. The glass box at the back. [01:49:15] Really well run. Happy team. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Things we wish you knew earlier [01:49:20] in your career.

[TRANSITION]: Oh.

Manrina Rhode: You [01:49:25] can have to edit out these long [01:49:30] pauses. No quick fires.

Payman Langroudi: Silence is the most powerful thing on a podcast. [01:49:35] Silence before tears.

Manrina Rhode: Are things to yell. [01:49:40] Things I’d known earlier I wish I’d known earlier. Um. Oh, well, [01:49:45] you know, I don’t. I would have if I’d known how powerful my Instagram was going to be for me, [01:49:50] I doubled. I’ve already doubled down on it. It’s already been great for me. Maybe I would have doubled [01:49:55] down on.

Payman Langroudi: Are you doubling down on TikTok now?

Manrina Rhode: No, but I should. Big mistake.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Huge.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah [01:50:00] yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Now that you know, now that you know.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. Just do it. Yeah. That whole online [01:50:05] presence does so well for us. And we don’t really do very much with it. We’re just in the process of [01:50:10] hiring a content creator marketing manager. I haven’t had one till now. And I think that’s going to make a really big difference. [01:50:15]

Payman Langroudi: Well, so you do it all yourself.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s pretty beautiful. Some of the stuff. Thank you.

Manrina Rhode: Thank you. [01:50:20] Really I just I really enjoy it. So sometimes I’ll just sit there like on a Sunday on my phone creating [01:50:25] a reel, and I’ll be like.

Payman Langroudi: Although although TikTok, the mindset isn’t beautiful, right? It’s a totally different [01:50:30] mindset on TikTok. Yeah, it’s kind of a tension sort of mindset that it’s beautiful. There’s nothing to do with it.

Manrina Rhode: We’ll [01:50:35] get our marketing person when she comes in to to look after TikTok. I don’t want I barely have the mind space [01:50:40] for Instagram, but I it gives me so much joy. Like if I wasn’t a dentist, I could be definitely [01:50:45] be a content creator because I love it. You know, I would just go around creating great content. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [01:50:50] finish with the usual questions fantasy dinner party, three guests, [01:50:55] dead or alive.

Manrina Rhode: Margaret Thatcher.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

[TRANSITION]: Brad [01:51:00] Pitt.

Manrina Rhode: Jennifer, wish you could see my face. Uh, Jennifer [01:51:05] Lopez.

Payman Langroudi: Go on. Why.

Manrina Rhode: Uh. Why all three?

Payman Langroudi: Well, yeah. Uh, Brad [01:51:10] Pitt seems obvious.

Manrina Rhode: We won’t talk about that. Uh, Margaret Thatcher. Just amazing. [01:51:15] Power woman. Got so much respect for her. Would love to have a conversation with her and try and get inside her mind. Um, [01:51:20] JLo really look up to her, find her really inspirational. I think she has amazing work [01:51:25] ethic. She’s taken care of herself physically as I aspire to do. She’s had this brilliant [01:51:30] work ethic where constantly reinventing herself and pushing herself in a way that I do. Um, [01:51:35] she’s what? I’m 45. She’s what, 52? She’s, you know, a little bit older than me and someone that I can just keep [01:51:40] us, like, looking up to throughout my journey. And I always have, and I always [01:51:45] will, I think.

[TRANSITION]: Nice.

Payman Langroudi: Last question is a deathbed question. On [01:51:50] your deathbed. Surrounded by your loved ones. Three pieces of advice [01:51:55] you’d leave them with. What would they be?

Manrina Rhode: Just. [01:52:05] It’s difficult because they’re not that it depends how old or young they are. Like, if I was talking to my niece and [01:52:10] nephew, and I felt like I could still offer advice that would be useful for them if my mom’s with [01:52:15] me on my deathbed, I don’t I don’t know how much advice I could give her. I think she’s amazing. And, uh, there’s not much [01:52:20] that I would be able to teach her. Um, but say for younger people, um, [01:52:25] I would, I would very much encourage them to just do it. Like, stop [01:52:30] being scared of the repercussions of failing. Of [01:52:35] what? If I can’t do it? You know that imposter syndrome. If you just spend your whole life [01:52:40] being your own worst enemy, holding yourself back, you. I feel [01:52:45] like you live half a life. And I would rather they just did it. And [01:52:50] then if it works out, it works out. And if it doesn’t work out, that’s okay. Then just sit at home in four [01:52:55] walls because you’re too scared to try. Yeah. So that’s what that’s advice I don’t know about on my deathbed, but [01:53:00] that I often give to people and that I would, that I would really love to hold, that I love to hold people’s [01:53:05] hand through. And it’s something that I really look forward to doing on my mentorship program as well.

Manrina Rhode: Like because [01:53:10] that imposter syndrome exists a lot, and in all of us, we all have that chimp paradox, you know, [01:53:15] kind of telling us we can’t do things, and sometimes you just need someone to be like, you can and I’ll hold your hand while you do it. I [01:53:20] would happily be the nurturing, maternal mother in me, and I’ll hold your hand. Let’s do it. [01:53:25] Um, so that’s one thing. Um, the second bit of advice is [01:53:30] look after your physical wellbeing [01:53:35] from a young age and make it part of your genetics. [01:53:40] Make it part of your everyday routine. I did that from the age of 16, [01:53:45] and I feel so grateful for it every day. Like when I talk to my friends who now, [01:53:50] you know, were 45. People are having ailments and and problems, and I [01:53:55] feel like I potentially have less of them and hopefully will as we get older, because I’ve worked [01:54:00] out so intensively throughout my adult life and watched my diet throughout [01:54:05] my adult life. And I don’t think taking care of your physical wellbeing [01:54:10] and making that part of just as important as breathing is something you’re ever going to regret. But if it’s [01:54:15] not something that you bring into your life from a young age or at some stage, it can be difficult to to incorporate later. [01:54:20]

Manrina Rhode: And it doesn’t mean you can’t do it as 60 or 70 people do that at any stage. I think it’s a good thing to do, but it’s [01:54:25] something that I think is really important for mindset and also just for for being able to function well, [01:54:30] you know, as your body starts giving away. Not that my body’s giving away, but it does feel [01:54:35] a bit like it’s sometimes like, you know, I’m more tired, but I feel like I can handle more because of the exercise [01:54:40] culture and diet culture that I have in my own brain. Um, and [01:54:45] the third bit of advice is learning and reading and growing and [01:54:50] never limiting yourself. Feeling like you know everything. If you think you know everything, that [01:54:55] just shows how little you know. And I think that you definitely go through this whole cycle in life of like [01:55:00] being in your 20s, like being quite young and realising you don’t know anything, and then getting through your 20s and maybe [01:55:05] to your 30s and being something like, I’m 30 now, I know everything. And then kind of going through your 30s [01:55:10] and realising.

Payman Langroudi: Keeping curious curiosity, well, just.

Manrina Rhode: Just how humbling life is and [01:55:15] and realising that that life is humbling and you are not in control and you are not in charge. [01:55:20] So continue learning, continue developing and so, [01:55:25] and continue being ready for what life will inevitably throw at you whenever it’s going to do that. Don’t sit [01:55:30] in your own ego castle thinking that this is it and this is I’m that great, and this is what my [01:55:35] life is going to be because it probably won’t.

Payman Langroudi: So look, that question, this previous question, actually, you [01:55:40] can look at that question in two different ways. You can look at that question as sort of I did these things. They served me well. [01:55:45] You should do it too. Mhm.

Manrina Rhode: Or I wish I’d done this.

Payman Langroudi: What about if you look at it that other way.

Manrina Rhode: I wish [01:55:50] what I would have done differently.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Advice. Advice you’d give. You know, for instance, [01:55:55] the one you said about the gym. Yeah, I’d give that a piece of advice, even though I didn’t start at 16 going to the gym. [01:56:00]

Manrina Rhode: So maybe, um, freezing your eggs. Like I say that to young people now, um, there’s [01:56:05] no point deciding suddenly at 35 or I’ve not had kids let me freeze my eggs because already your eggs are old. [01:56:10] Um, if someone had told me to freeze my eggs at 25, I would have thought they were nuts. But if [01:56:15] I have a child at 25. Who looks like she’s not going to have her kids any time [01:56:20] soon, I might be in want to say to her, can we just can we do at least one batch of freezing just [01:56:25] in case? Um, it seems like a crazy bit of advice to give, but if I could jump back and if at [01:56:30] 25, if I could have just frozen some.

Payman Langroudi: We had two whole episodes on it with Rona. Um, [01:56:35] egg freezing episodes. Um, and yeah, you’re right that I’ve given that advice to so many people now after [01:56:40] those two episodes. Mhm.

Manrina Rhode: I think Google is it Google that offer an [01:56:45] incentive like they’ll pay towards it if their staff want to take time off to do that. Yeah. Because they understand that they’re [01:56:50] working and not having kids. Like if you want to freeze your eggs we’ll we’ll pay towards it. Um, so maybe. [01:56:55] Yeah if I would have it would have been crazy, but I would have done that. Um, what [01:57:00] else would I have done differently?

Payman Langroudi: Kids on the agenda at all in any [01:57:05] way, shape or form.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, I’ve been trying to have, um, a child for [01:57:10] like 13 years or definitely, like, seriously, for at least ten, uh, more like 12. [01:57:15] So let’s see.

Payman Langroudi: Would you ever adopt a child?

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. So that would be the next stage [01:57:20] now because it’s getting to that stage. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah yeah. So I mean I would always I would be, [01:57:25] I would be open to adopting like any way, like since I was a child, I was always open to that. [01:57:30] I would love to have a genetic child because I think it just would be nice. But [01:57:35] equally, there’s no reason why why I’m completely open to to adopting, so, you know, but both [01:57:40] methods are being explored at all times. They’re definitely on the agenda. [01:57:45]

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it and really thank you for being so open throughout [01:57:50] this conversation. It’s been brilliant. Thank you. Thank you for your time.

Prav Solanki: Hello listeners, and thank you for tuning in to the Dental Leaders podcast. Today, we had the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Andrew Moore, one of my most favourite people to work with, as a client, and to hang around and be with. This guy has got what I consider to be the most amazing dental practise on the planet. And I don’t just mean from it’s beautiful aesthetics and everything.

Prav Solanki: There’s a buzz, and there’s an energy, and there’s some magic that he’s created in his practise. If he could bottle that up and inject it into someone else’s practise. Wow. So many lessons to learn from this.

Prav Solanki: Pay, what were your takeaways from today’s interview?

Payman: Yeah, well it is my favourite practise in the country as well, just aesthetically, but then the number of implants he’s doing. And then just what a cool dude he is. Just what a cool dude.

Prav Solanki: Super cool man.

Payman: I think there’s loads to learn from this one, and he’s just one of the really low profile super high performer dentists that I know, so I’m sure everyone’s going to enjoy it.

Prav Solanki: Enjoy guys. Enjoy.

Prav Solanki: Andy, you’re very very good friends with probably one of the most successful businessmen in the world.

Dr. Andy Moore: What, you?

Speaker 4: This is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: So today we’ve got Andy Moore with us from Advanced Dental clinic. I’ve known you for about 10 years now, isn’t that right?

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, I think so. We met at a trade show and you came up with a couple of gems that I was like, “Oh, I need to get this guy involved in the practise.” So yeah, it was a good meeting.

Prav Solanki: It was, it was a good meeting. And people always ask me, “What’s the nicest practise you’ve ever walked into? What’s the best environment you’ve ever seen in a dental practise?” And it’s always yours Andy.

Payman: Yeah, I’d say the same.

Prav Solanki: I can only describe it as magic.

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, that’s super nice to hear that.

Prav Solanki: When you walk through the door of Advance Dental clinic, the atmosphere, the team, the buzz.

Payman: The building.

Prav Solanki: The building. Everything. You just… you cannot recreate that. And you know that practise was created many years ago now.

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah it was 16 years in May, that we opened the first bit of the practise. And then it must be eight years, eight maybe nine years, we opened the second bit. Actually I was looking today with a light coming in, really it was a nice sunny morning and thinking, “Well it still looks good.”

Prav Solanki: I think I must have come there soon after opened.

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, you did. Yeah, you did.

Prav Solanki: Because I remember you said it. It was just the-

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, it was a new build.

Prav Solanki: How did you get planning permission for that?

Dr. Andy Moore: Well, we had a few designs turned down. The architect had done some practises that I’d seen in a magazine. So when I saw that… he hadn’t done a new build, but when I saw his fit-outs I was like, “Oh yeah, I ripped it out of a magazine.” And then a friend of mine, he rips out of an architectural magazine as well and when this plot of land came up, he said to me, “Oh you got that plot of land? You should phone that guy”

Dr. Andy Moore: And we looked at the two things together, well it’s actually the same building, just in two different magazines. So I called up Richard Mitzman, and we went through quite a lot of designs and bits and pieces and eventually we got the sort of the all clear from the council and found out really what they wanted. And eventually we got… because the first few designs weren’t anything like what it is now.

Payman: For anyone who hasn’t seen it, really, you should google it. Advanced Dental, right?

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah.

Payman: It’s stunning. And it’s a normal road with normal Victorian houses.

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, normal houses, yeah.

Payman: And then there’s this metal and glass spaceship.

Dr. Andy Moore: Well it fit the bill, and what they wanted was a red brick fronted building on the building line. So once they told us that’s what they wanted, and if you look at it from the outside, that’s what we’ve got. But it just goes back a long way. A number of people who come and go, it’s like a TARDIS-

Payman: Yeah.

Dr. Andy Moore: -the way it’s sort of… it’s a very long dental practise really. But to have a new build. I mean, I was so lucky to find that plot of land. That was one of the luckiest, ridiculously lucky moments in my life, for no apparent reason. Going into an estate agent, I knew I’d had a year to go on where I was working. I knew the guy was going to say no, it’s time to move on. And he wanted to sort of move me on.

Dr. Andy Moore: So I just walked into the state agent. I must’ve gone past a thousand times in my life and never gone in. I just walked in and I said to the agent, “Oh, I’m just looking for a building. Something like an old house to convert into a dental practise.” And he said, “Oh, I’ve just got off the phone to the doctor who owns that show, with a shack basically, that wasn’t being used, as the doctor’s surgery had been sort of run down for years and years previously, and she wants to sell.” So I said, “Okay, whatever they value, whatever you value at, I’ll offer, I’ll give you 10,000 pound ball and we’ll do the deal by the end of the month.” So it was one of those moments that I just knew I had to grasp, and I just prayed it was going to be a low valuation. I didn’t have a clue what it would be.

Dr. Andy Moore: And within three weeks, we’d done the deal, bought the place. I mean its two doors from where I was working. So I knew I wouldn’t have any problem with the patients being able to go there.

Payman: Did you own the place you were working, or were you-

Dr. Andy Moore: No, I owned my goodwill, so I could move anywhere. So when I sort of bought out of my associate contract, effectively I bought my goodwill. I owned my patients, and the plan was to find another place. But it would have been ideally not so close for political reasons, but that was the way it was. And we basically put up a board. A local guy came in and demolished the building, cleared the site, and then I got the architects involved. And away we went.

Payman: How long did it take, beginning to end, to build?

Dr. Andy Moore: Just over a year. So from buying the land in February 2002, to opening in May 2003. So, and then, we got a bespoke dental practise all in one floor, designed from the ground up.

Payman: Is Mitzman still around?

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah. He doesn’t do most dental. Yeah. He qualified as a dentist years and years before me.

Payman: I didn’t know that.

Dr. Andy Moore: And then he sort of retired from dentistry when I started dentistry effectively. So he was quite a few years ahead of me. And then he trained as an architect, a sculptor. He did all sorts of stuff. And then he obviously saw there was a niche to design. This was before the days of all CQC and HCMO 105 and all this stuff that dentists weren’t doing, but he was… because he trained in the states, he was so up on all the…

Payman: Sterilisation and things.

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, yeah, and working. The first thing he said to me was, “Oh, you should work in two rooms.” And I was like, “I can’t work in a yard. I can’t work. I can’t do that.” He’s like, “No, no, you’ve got to do it. You’ve got to do it. It will make you so much more productive.”

Dr. Andy Moore: And so I took all that stuff on board. We had sterilising areas outside of the surgeries before that became the norm and the requirements like it is now. And I worked with two nurses in two rooms, and I just loved it. It was just fantastic. In doing implants as well. All that setting up time and clearing up time, that was just going on while I was doing other things. So it was a real… I’ve got a lot to thank him for, not just for the design of the building, but for the way he opened my eyes and changed the way I worked.

Payman: What did you spend? You mind talking about that?

Dr. Andy Moore: I got a Polish builder, that Richard, before Polish builders were sort of norm. I think the plot cost me 90,000, and it’s a decent sized goal.

Payman: Good old days.

Payman: Wow.

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah. I mean the plot wasn’t a lot of money. Then the build, I think it was 260,000 to build it. And you look back on that and think, “Oh my God, I got a real bargain.” But it seemed like a lot at the time, because it was a risk for me as a one person. I was just me. To build a four surgery practise and quite a statement sort of big practise and taking on a lot of people.

Payman: Have you been to his other practises? He did Robbereti’s one.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, I haven’t, no.

Payman: Beautiful. He did the Gentle Dental in Croydon.

Dr. Andy Moore: Kamlesh, yeah.

Payman: Yeah.

Dr. Andy Moore: Well these are all guys… I mean I-

Payman: But yours was my favourite of all.

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, well I’ve got a lot to thank Richard for. But I think he’s got quite a lot to thank me for because everyone who came around to my practise, especially when I was doing teaching at the Royal College, they’re like, “Oh I want a practise like.” And about eight, maybe five, guys built practises off the back of coming to my practise with Richard. And so he did really well and he’s brilliant, and fantastic to spread that, the design worked so well. And when we got the other plot of land at the back and extended, then obviously he was the first person I went to do the extension there.

Prav Solanki: At what point did you decide I want my own business? Because you mentioned you had this moment where accidentally you stumbled into a estate agent, but before that, was it in your mind? That I want to be my own boss.

Dr. Andy Moore: Well I knew I’d have to do at some point. I mean when I was working as an associate, the agreement with my boss at the time was we would both go private and set up a private dental clinic in Chelsea. Because it was just coming to that point where NHS was getting harder and harder to where… and I had a good following of private patients, doing quite lot of implant work.

Dr. Andy Moore: So I knew at that point I was going to need to do my own sort of business stuff. And I’ve got friends who had been successful in business, and yeah, it was a natural progression. I think that when you… the dentistry, not gets easier, but it becomes less of a challenge to think about doing stuff that you need something else as a challenge. And building a business is a really good challenge for people. So yeah, it was a natural progression, I think so.

Prav Solanki: What was the biggest challenge, or the biggest shock, that came to you after opening a business? Was it managing teams-

Dr. Andy Moore: It wast the staff. Yeah. Managing the people. The patients were amazing. Managing the people. And when you were so used to working maybe with just your nurse and one other person and receptionist and stuff, it was much harder to take on a group of people and getting them to jell. And what we found was, because we were working differently to normal dental practises, there was a sterilising area, rather than all the girls doing their own thing. We found it was quite hard to take on experienced dental nurses, because they were so used to doing their own thing and not working as a team.

Dr. Andy Moore: So eventually we got that rolling, and then we eventually sort of took on and trained our own nurses. Some of the best people were people who we trained ourselves, rather than nurses who were already qualified. So that was really good in the end. But it was, the first couple of years were quite hard. We went through quite a few staff, which is always difficult to sort of say, “Oh, it’s not working.” That’s the hardest. That’s what I find one of the hardest things. Is-

Prav Solanki: Managing people.

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah. Or letting people go that you know just aren’t right for the practise. But we’re so lucky now, because we’ve got such a stable group of girls and the dentists and everything. It’s been really good, the last few years.

Prav Solanki: It’s such a happy place, the times that I’ve been in. Everyone’s smiling, everyone’s happy. You can feel that buzz.

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah. It’s got that. A lot of people say that.

Prav Solanki: How have you created that? Because it must be your leadership, right? There’s got to be something in there that you can give some advice to some of our listeners. I’ve never walked in a practise where the energy and the level of happiness is such a high.

Dr. Andy Moore: I think it comes from the building of it, little bit as well. I can’t just take the credit for it really. Because it’s a really nice place to work.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Dr. Andy Moore: I mean it’s a nice place. It’s a nice environment to be in.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Dr. Andy Moore: And that is good. I think the girls get… I try and give the girls as much responsibility as I can. Because I think that they, the right people are empowered by that. And that took me a while. That was another thing. When I first started, it took me a while to be able to let go of stuff. I wanted to do everything, and then I realise I had to sort of give responsibility to other people. So they’ve all got their own roles within the team, plus other roles as well.

Dr. Andy Moore: So I don’t know what it is. We just got a good group of people that we’ve sort of got together, and it does take a while to find that sort of team. It’s like putting together a load of footballers. That on paper, they’re all fantastic, but they don’t actually jell that well together. So I think that that took a little while. But now we’ve seemed to have got that, and it does seem to work with the formula we’ve somehow stumbled on I think there, so.

Payman: Do you still get involved in the recruitment?

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, I do actually.

Payman: Yeah?

Dr. Andy Moore: I do. Yeah. I tend to let the practise managers and all of the senior nurses weed out, and then I’ll get involved in maybe in the last five or six. Because at one point, I took a step away from that, and that was a mistake.

Prav Solanki: Right.

Dr. Andy Moore: And I took a… because I thought, “Oh, this is another thing I can delegate to other people.” And then I sort of didn’t get the people I wanted really. And it didn’t work.

Prav Solanki: If you could package up what is it that you are looking for-

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, I know, I could.

Prav Solanki: Could you describe the qualities in a person that you look for when you’re trying to find staff?

Dr. Andy Moore: It’s that personality, that spark that they have. Because I always say that you can teach someone dentistry, but you can’t teach them how to be a smiley, funny, bubbly person. Someone who can talk to other people. That comes really from within and it’s… we’ve had some people who have been really shy, and they’ve really come out of their shell. And perhaps I didn’t think they would. But I think for most of them, they’d have already got that before they come to the practise.

Dr. Andy Moore: And we try and find that, rather than going, “Oh, you’ve got really good CV. You’ve worked at this place, you’ve that place, you’ve got this qualification, that qualification.” I go by personality, the feel, and the vibe I get of people. Rather than looking at their CV.

Payman: Is that true with dentists as well or just…

Dr. Andy Moore: Dentists? Well, you have to have a bit more than that with the dentist. So yeah, I definitely go a little bit more. Luckily we don’t have to, we get… when the dentists come, they tend to stay. So we don’t have to recruit that often. So we may be looking for someone who’s got a good personalities, but we’ve got a skill set that will fit into the practise. Because what realise a long time ago was I couldn’t do everything. I used to try, and I used to do ortho, implants, all surgery, I was trying to do everything, and I realised I just couldn’t do that. So now, even though no one is, apart from the periodontist, is a sort of specialist per se, we have guys who work in the team who are really good at one specific aspect.

Dr. Andy Moore: So Vecelia is amazing at Invisalign, brilliant with people. And so if someone phones up and is interested in Invisalign, just straighten him with Vecelia. And that’s a way of keeping her busy. So we don’t… there’s a thing, sometimes principals want to have everything. They want to have all the patients and things. But for me, I just tend to focus just on the implant stuff, and the general dentistry gets moved around the other-

Payman: So do you not do any?

Dr. Andy Moore: Oh, I think you always end up doing a little bit. When you do implants, it’s such a general thing as well. Because you might be doing an implant on one tooth, and the patient needs a crown on the other, so.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Dr. Andy Moore: And I’m really still interested in digital dentistry with CEREC and stuff like that. So I still like to do all that sort of thing, but I do less and less these days. But I think you’ve always got to do that. There’s so many skill sets you need in implant dentistry, even if it’s just being really slick at making temporary crowns and bridges chairside, and stuff like that. You need those skills really.

Prav Solanki: What sort of volume of implant dentistry you doing Andy? Just so you could give us a real fight there in numbers?

Dr. Andy Moore: Well the practise did about 700, 750 implants last year.

Prav Solanki: Wow.

Dr. Andy Moore: So yeah, that’s been the norm for us for the last five years or so now. So yeah, it’s good. And I’ve taken on another guy, Phil who works for me, who’s taking on more of the implant stuff as well. So it used to just be me, but now Phil does more cases. So that’s really good. So it means I could take a bit of time off, so without the cases. I had seven weeks off in the summer with a broken arm, and there was hardly any cases that had to get put back because anyone who wanted to wait for me could wait for me. Anyone who didn’t, then Phil could pick up those cases. I think that worked really well.

Prav Solanki: I’ve always admired you Andy, because you’ve got the perfect, what I would consider to be the perfect work life balance. So you work damn hard, and you do a high volume of dentistry in the time that you do it at a very high standard. But you also, I have conversations with you about marketing or whatever it might be, or just stuff going on in the practise, and then you’ll be off on your next holiday or spending time with your family.

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: So it’s really sort of, you’ve inspired me in some respects of me taking time out of my own life and spending it with my family, or taking extended breaks. So how do you get that balance right? Of owning your own business that’s got a massive overhead beside it, supporting a team, but also making sure that you’ve got an amazing work life balance?

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, I mean that’s another real… I think it helps when you do an implant work, which is sort of profitable once you get good at it. I think it’s hard at the start with implant work, and obviously with… I’ve been doing implants for over 20 years now, so I’ve gone through a lot of learning curves with that. And just having good people who can, that when you’re away, that stuff gets done. It must be hard for dentists maybe who work on their own, because they know when they’re away, they’re always thinking about the practise.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Dr. Andy Moore: And I still, even when I’m on holiday, I still see emails that I need to answer and I don’t think you can ever get away with it in this day and age. But I do try to… what I’ve been doing in the last five years is trying to chip away at my book. So I’d just take an afternoon here, and an afternoon there, and trying to gradually wind down as the other guys get busier. And that’s hard sometimes, to do that, because you got to have faith in everybody else. But it works really well for me that, and I try and take seven or eight weeks holiday a year if I can.

Dr. Andy Moore: And you come back refreshed, and you’re ready to go again. And I think, I find if I work for more than two months without a break, I get a little bit like, “I need a holiday.” I get too tired. So I think that works quite well for me, get that balance somewhere along the line. But it’s, again, it’s quite hard to put your finger on it. I think you have to toy with a bit. Do a little bit here, if you… the key I reckon is to, for me, to earn the same amount of money and work less is more important than me to work really hard and not-

Prav Solanki: Make more.

Dr. Andy Moore: And make more money and not have time to enjoy it. And I think I like doing other things other than dentistry. I enjoy dentistry.

Prav Solanki: So you, if… you’d said you’d take an afternoon off here or there or whatever, considered a treat or whatever. What is Andy time? So if you have an afternoon free to yourself, or a day free, selfish Andy time, what would you be doing with that time?

Dr. Andy Moore: Generally riding my bike, which is a bit sad, but yeah, I like training. I’ve done a couple of Ironman and lots of half Ironman events and stuff, so. And I like being outdoors. I like that challenge of pushing myself sort of physically to do things that I perhaps wouldn’t have thought I could do maybe 10 years ago. So I enjoy doing that. Just spending time at home. The kids, again, growing up now, so they don’t need me so much. Like they used to.

Payman: How old are they?

Dr. Andy Moore: Alfie’s 20. He’s at Uni. And my daughter, Lily, she’s going to be going to university this year so, it’s going to be me, the wife and the dog, so. I think she’s more nervous about it than I am. But yeah, so it’s good to have outside interests. I mean it’s good. I mean I… yesterday was a good one for me because I had a sort of nice day. Morning great, finished my patient before lunch a little bit earlier. So I had an hour and a half, sun was shining. And I was like okay, and I jumped on my bike, did a quick 50k ride, came back. Quick shower, and then did the afternoon. That was a perfect day for me. So bit of work, bit of training, and then spend the evening with family and stuff. So yeah, that’s the way I like doing things.

Prav Solanki: Has fitness always been something that featured heavily in your life? Or is it something that’s been…

Dr. Andy Moore: I’ve definitely got worse or worse. Well I’ve got fitter, but I’ve got more obsessed with it in the last sort of five, 10 years I think. I’ve always… I played football when I was younger and run some marathons and stuff. But yeah, in the last… I think as the kids got older and they, you get to that moment where you come home from work and they… and you come home and they’re doing their homework, and they’re doing stuff, and they don’t sort of feel like they don’t need you so much anymore. That’s quite a hole that can leave you with there. So I think for me, when the kids got to that point, I started doing a bit more training and sort of just spending a bit more time doing that. So yeah, I still really enjoy it.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Payman: Did your kids think about wanting to be a dentist or not?

Dr. Andy Moore: I thought about them wanting to be dentists. I was trying to… I’ve always been trying to… I think my son would be an amazing dentist. Because he’s really good with his hands, and he’s good sort of… he’s just a sociable people person. And I’ve been saying to him for years, “Just, it would be really good if you just…” And he just not had the thing for it. He’d not had the thing for it there. So it’s a real shame.

Dr. Andy Moore: I think it was that realisation. He was in primary school, and he said to me, “Well, if things don’t work out, I could always become a dentist like you.” And I thought, oh maybe that’s not his aspiration. So he’s more interested in engineering and design. He’s very, he’s quite artistic. So design, but I haven’t given up hope on him yet. I’m still chipping, even though he’s at university doing something else. I’m still mentioning it there every now and then.

Dr. Andy Moore: And my daughter, she’s going to do neuroscience. I was like, “Well you’re doing neuroscience, you might as well do dentistry, what’s the matter with you?” But I think they just want to do their own thing, and I can absolutely appreciate that. That they want to carve their own niche in life, rather than-

Payman: How did you get involved in implants so early?

Dr. Andy Moore: Well I-

Payman: Were you always a surgical type? Like were you-

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah. I used to do a lot of surgery when I first qualified. I used to work at Basildon hospital and do… there was a days when you… there was a department run by one consultant and SHO and about eight clinical assistants. And someone got me into doing that when I first qualified. So, and I still like doing, we used to run our own lists. It was really good. It was a great way of getting surgical, sort of experience. And then after, probably, I think it was about seven or eight years of doing NHS, did a lot of amalgams in a really busy busy NHS practise, I just thought, “I just don’t know if I could do this for the rest of my life.”

Dr. Andy Moore: And I started then looking around for other things and someone said to me, “Oh, you should look at implants. It could be the next big thing.” So I met Ashok Sethi, and I did Ashok’s course. I’ve got a lot I’ve to thank Ashok for, because he opened my eyes to what other things dentistry could be. I remember going to his practise in Harley Street, it’s a big townhouse in Harley Street, and thinking, this is amazing. This is what I want. This is what I want to do.

Prav Solanki: What sort of stage of your career were you at that point?

Dr. Andy Moore: I was in that transition where I’d been… where dentistry, it was getting to be the bit same old, same old.

Prav Solanki: How many years qualified were you by then?

Dr. Andy Moore: So I must’ve been eight, maybe nine years qualified. And I was just… I was still enjoying it. I was still enjoying dentistry, but I was just at that point of like, “Oh my God, I’m… I could be doing this for another 30 years. I need to do something else.” Not something else, because I know I’ve got limitations. But something, maybe just a different challenge. So that was good for me, to go and see what else was going out there. And then aside, going on courses through Ashok, you know, did his year course. I thought to myself, well I’ll do the odd implant here and there. And again, quite a leap of faith as an associate in a predominantly NHS practise to turn around and go, “Oh, I’m going to buy all the implant stuff.” The physio dispenser, the kit, all the… and all this. When you-

Payman: Are you placing all 750 implants? Or is there a second implantologist there?

Dr. Andy Moore: Up until recently I was, yeah. But Phil is now doing a lot of, yeah, he’s doing a lot of stuff. So yeah, I mean it’s good. I mean we’ve got so many patients who just… because I think being in the same street, I’ve worked in the same street for 30 years, so I’ve got a lot of patients out there and I walk through town. “Oh yeah, I did that. I did that one. Yeah I did that.”

Dr. Andy Moore: So I think it’s just a volume of people. I don’t remember the name, but I remember what I did on them. And they sort of… you get people coming in straight out of the blue. I saw someone, yesterday I think it was, who I hadn’t seen him for 15 years.

Prav Solanki: Wow.

Dr. Andy Moore: And just came in and said, “Oh I broke my tooth. You did an implant for me 15 years ago, and I just want that one out.” And so I get people just coming back. So it gets easier, I think, as you’ve done more. There’s not much selling involved for me anymore with implants, because a lot of people are sold on it. Not like the old days, it was a real leap of faith for people.

Payman: You were just saying your original… we were talking before about your early veneer cases that you’ve-

Dr. Andy Moore: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Payman: Are you seeing Peri-implantitis as a big problem?

Dr. Andy Moore: Absolutely. I don’t see it as a big problem. I see it as a problem, yeah. And it’s a really hard thing. Because what we know now is different to what we knew then. But you get some real random stuff with implants. You could place an implant, it’s really stable, and then year down the line you’ve got failure, and you just can’t put your finger on that. And you’ve got patients who’ve… I’ve got patients who’ve had implants that I placed 20 years ago, and you look at it, you see they come in, you take an X-ray and the bone level is where it was 20 years ago. So I think dentistry, you do learn that there’s always going to be failure in dentistry, and it’s minimising the risk for the patient, and minimising the risk for you.

Dr. Andy Moore: Because that’s always a difficult conversation that. Because you don’t get enough failure to make it one of those things that you think, oh just not worth it. Because there’s so many other people out there who’ve got fantastic results.

Payman: What’s the state of play with Peri-implantitis? I mean, what’s the treatment? Is it just like Perio?

Dr. Andy Moore: It’s like Perio, yeah. I mean the thing is that you’ve got to weigh up often if it’s an anterior implant, if it’s got a deep pocket around there, you have to think about making it easy for that patient to clean. So it might be that you’ve got to sacrifice some of the aesthetics for it. So if that’s the case, and that becomes a problem, then it is often removing the implant is the only option and then starting again with something else.

Dr. Andy Moore: But a lot of patients, they understand things have a life span. Although I think it’s one of the only things that people ever say to me, “Will it last a lifetime?” That’s a tough one. When people are thinking something is going to last a lifetime. Well, you’ve got to gauge people’s expectations. And that’s the hardest thing, the expectations of people I find. These days, we do a lot of teeth in a day, and I still, I personally think it’s a really amazing treatment to offer someone, and you’re just gauging the expectations of someone who’s coming in. And they’ve got all loose teeth, they all need to come out. Then you see them in the morning. Place the implants, all this teeth out, so all the upper teeth out, implants in. Six hours later you’re fitting a custom made acrylic bridge.

Dr. Andy Moore: Something that’s made in a day. But it looks nice, it’s stable. And the patients, “Oh, it feels a bit thick at the back.” And then you just think, “Oh my God, that’s one of the hardest things to do in dentistry.” Even though you’ve shown them the models, and shown what the timber is going to be like, and said to them, “Look, it will be a bit thick because it’s plastic. It needs to be strong. You can’t have it breaking.” So those are the challenges, I think, that face a lot of implant dentists, a dentist full stop really, there. That is gauging those expectations are so high these days.

Prav Solanki: A lot of dentists tell me that sometimes patients forget where they came from.

Dr. Andy Moore: Absolutely. Yeah. That’s why you need a photo sometimes, and say, “Well this is where you were, and this is where you are now.” And it’s getting them through that transition stage. I mean we custom made pretty much all our temporary full arch bridges, lab made stuff, and it’s really really hard to do in a day. It’s really hard to get the bite right, get everything looking good. But we know it’s a temporary, and sometimes just getting over that to the patient, that they know this is something that we have to get through until we do the permanent one.

Dr. Andy Moore: Saying that, I saw a lady this morning who we did a full arch for, before Christmas. It was November. And I said, “Oh, is there anything you want to change about the temporary?” “No, just do, it looks fantastic.” And it looked brilliant. So most of them are like that, but you don’t know, when that patient comes through the door, whether they’re going to be a patient with really high expectations, or realistic expectations. And some of the patients you think have got realistic expectations turn out to have really high expectations. They don’t have a sign, they don’t come in with a sign. So it’s difficult, it’s difficult.

Payman: I think it is difficult dentistry, isn’t it? Does it get easier, because you’ve done so many?

Dr. Andy Moore: I think the surgical aspect, just straightforward surgery, gets a bit easier. You got to be a little bit, you still don’t want to be blasé about it. You still want to make sure that you’re on the ball. But yeah, definitely-

Payman: The soft tissue side of it for anterior seems like a headache.

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, that can be. Again, it’s case selection, and picking out ones that you’re going to do quickly, ones you’re going to do slowly. So you got an immediate. Sometimes it seems like the more difficult treatment, but you’re maintaining the soft tissue. And there’re other times you’ve got to do things slower and make sure things heal and just take your time with things.

Payman: Are you involved in the zygomatic?

Dr. Andy Moore: No. I thought about zygomatic implants. I went to Paulo Malo’s clinic in Portugal a few years ago and saw him do some zygomatics. And-

Payman: No.

Dr. Andy Moore: It’s sort of put me off. for me. Rather than make me want to go out and buy a kit, I was like, “Oh my God, there is a limit on what you should be doing in dental practise.” And for me, I think I’m a great believer in doing stuff a lot. You should do, but if you don’t do things from one month to the next or one six months to the next, you should be sending them somewhere else. So I think you get good at doing things quickly and a lot of. So if you’re doing one zygomatic case a year, you shouldn’t be doing it. You should be sending those to a guy who’s doing them every week, preferably. So I just, yeah, I backed away from that once I’d seen them in action, but yeah, maybe it’s a good treatment for some people.

Prav Solanki: Can you remember a patient who you’ve had the biggest impact on, life wise, in the way you’ve changed their life through dentistry?

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, I think the Teeth in a Day sort of stuff is the one that really, that’s the one that really gets people. When they’ve been suffering. You’ve normally had that thing where they’ve just had teeth, just one added on one, another other one added on, another one added on. I mean, we do this technique called [cinco 00:35:33], predominantly do it in the lower jaw. Where a patient will come in with often a full denture that I’ve had made recently. They’ve had their final lower three out, or something like that, and they’ve had a full denture made. And they just cannot wear it. They’ve had that nearly a full denture. We just had two teeth holding it in-

Prav Solanki: It’s a big difference.

Dr. Andy Moore: And then they’ve had those last two teeth out. The dentist, in good faith, has made him a nice lower denture. And that is a technique I really like. And it’s quite difficult, but I’ve been doing it for a long time. Because you got to put the implants in all parallel. It’s a Teeth in a Day, but using the existing denture to create a semi fixed. Patients can take it in and out, but it’s actually quite hard to get in and out. It’s a good, it’s almost fixed.

Payman: Yeah.

Dr. Andy Moore: And that’s one of the ones where you really, when they come in, and I think, “You know what? I’ll see you next week.” And I can really make a difference, that person’s life. Because they come in with a wobbly denture, and in a hour… a straightforward case, I can do it in an hour, an hour and a quarter, and they walk out, and they’ve got effectively fixed teeth.

Prav Solanki: But what changes for them Andy? So, patients have come back and said, “You’ve changed my life-

Dr. Andy Moore: Oh that thing is, “Can I bite an apple?” I have to reign them in a little bit, especially if I’m doing a median load. And I’m like, “Yeah you can, but not for six weeks.” But yeah, just being able to eat. I think people, we just all go out for dinner much more than we used to. And food is much more of a bigger deal. And I think you get people who say, “I go out and I’m having to take my teeth out halfway through a meal, or I’m avoiding going into social situations,” and stuff like that. And then when you get people like that coming in here, I definitely can do something with them.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Dr. Andy Moore: I could definitely do something to really improve their quality of life. So yeah, I think for that, and just that thing of people saying smiling without putting their hand up, without covering their mouth as they smile. And those sort of cases.

Payman: You know what it is? We don’t get taught enough about the emotional side of losing all of your teeth.

Dr. Andy Moore: No.

Payman: And emotionally when… I mean we’re all getting on a little bit now, right? But emotionally when something goes, whatever the thing is, my wife had started taking medicine and the doctor said, rest of your life, and it was like one of those moments in your life-

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah. That’s a long time.

Payman: -and it was just taking a pill. And we looked high and low to find a doctor who would say, “Oh, she doesn’t have to take it for the rest of her life.” But when you lose all of your teeth, all of them. And like he says, the lower dentures that just doesn’t stay, emotionally, it’s a really bad place to be in.

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah.

Payman: And then to be taken out of that, I can see that it’s going to be huge, isn’t it? It’s going to be huge.

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah. Again, sometimes it is expectations. I think when we first started doing a lot of Teeth in a Day stuff, we were generally on people who had full dentures. So that was a lot easier to take them from a full denture to a fixed bridge, a transitional bridge. But it was such an amazing feeling. Now we got a lot of patients who have never had that experience of a denture. And they’re the ones that are hard to manage their expectations on. But at the end of the treatment, the cases have generally all gone really well. It’s just getting them through that initial period can be a little bit tricky, I think.

Payman: I bet the word of mouth is huge on it as well.

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah. I mean we get a lot of people who just come to us, and they say, “Oh, you saw my friend. Oh you did my husband.” That is a big thing, because people really want to talk about that life changing sort of stuff. Because it’s just fantastic for business really.

Payman: Excuse my ignorance about this, you probably even know more about this than I do Prav, but is all on four, all on six, could you do that with any implant system? or is that specifically-

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, I think you’ve got to have a system that is going to give you really good primary stability. So it has to have a certain sort of thread or just the technique for putting it in. But I think most of the big systems now, they’ve got all the components to do that. Because it’s such a big treatment for people. It’s such a popular treatment modality that the implant systems, they’ve all got their own little way of doing it.

Payman: Do you use more than one implant system, or do you stick to one?

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah. I use predominantly Ankylos, from Dentsply and I use Anthogyr as well, which is a French system, which is really good. And we pick and choose according to. It’s just nice to have another system that you look on. You think, “Actually, it might be better to use something different.” But predominantly, I still use Ankylos the most there. So I’ve been using it now for, it’s probably 16 years or since it came to the UK.

Payman: So you don’t have different qualities of implant?

Dr. Andy Moore: No, I don’t do that.

Payman: That’s a thing, isn’t it? Some people do that?

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, I don’t know about that. I’m not sure that’s really my thing. Premium implants, and stuff like that. Yeah, I don’t know how that works.

Prav Solanki: I think, I’ve spoke to you at length on this Andy, and we all know that Ankylos is at the top end of the market in terms of costs, right?

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: And I said, “Well have you thought about using the cheaper implant?” You always talk about, you just need one failure to ruin a year, right?

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah. I think you want to be putting something in that you wouldn’t mind having in your own mouth. And also, I don’t believe in complicating things. When you’re doing a plan for someone, and you go, “Okay, it’s going to be x number of thousand pounds to do this implant, but if you do this implant, it’s going to be a bit cheaper, and that implant’s going to be a bit cheaper.” And I really think that’s confusing for patients.

Dr. Andy Moore: It’s a bit like when we do a full arch, I won’t say all… like an all on four sort of treatment. We sort of charge it really as a procedure rather than per implant. So if I do four implants, it’s the same as doing six. Because the patient might be sedated and you, “Oh, actually I could put a couple of extra implants in here.” And you don’t want to have to sort of get over that sort of consent issue.

Dr. Andy Moore: So it’s actually better to do it as a procedure. Because in a way, four is less implants, but it’s much harder and more critically harder to do if you put four in. Because they’re often, it’s a much harder case.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Dr. Andy Moore: So I tend to do it as a procedure, and I think it’s better that way for patients, that transparency with patients. I learned that a long time ago, most of the complaints you will have is that patient didn’t expect the fees. So it’s not that they’re not happy to pay, but it’s that they thought it was going to be one figure, and it turned out to be another.

Dr. Andy Moore: So when we do a plan, we stick with that plan. Even though if I think, “Oh, I’m going to have to do some extra stuff, but I hadn’t mentioned it.” The patient, we swallow that cost, and you just do it because by the time you’ve spoken about it and talked about the whole thing, you could have just got on and done it anyway there. So that’s just the way-

Payman: My uncle is an implantologist in Iran, and he says that it’s very common in Iran. They say Swiss implant, South Korean implant or Iranian implant. He’s just like, “That’s absolutely standard thing.”

Dr. Andy Moore: Really?

Payman: And he was saying, “Yeah, I’m getting some luck with Iranian implants.” But we do have it in dentistry, don’t we? We have it whitening, basic and advanced, right? That that’s-

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, no I suppose so. Yeah. I mean, and I’ve seen, I don’t know if that’s the sort of practise we want. I don’t like to be demarcate between-

Payman: Yeah, I get it.

Dr. Andy Moore: -premium, because it should all be premium. And if patients have a cheaper implant, they’ll still want it to work. I don’t know. I’d… for me, I’m not sure about that. But a friend of mine, he saw someone years and years ago in a practise in Harley street that were doing the Hungarian implants sort stuff.

Prav Solanki: Right.

Dr. Andy Moore: And so they were doing the consultations there, and then you had the option to have a Swiss implant in the UK, or the Swiss implant in Hungary, and the cheaper implant in the UK, or the cheaper… and this treatment plan for a single tooth implant. It was about 10 pages.

Dr. Andy Moore: He sent it to me, I went, “Oh listen, just come over and see me. And actually it didn’t work out. When you looked at having it done in the UK and having the proper implant, it was the same prices as what we charge. So it wasn’t like they were trying to be sort of super cheap or anything. It was just really confusing.

Payman: I’ve seen some horror stories that people, tourism, dental tourism.

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah. The dental tourism ones. I think less so now. Now the pound is so crap against the euro. It just doesn’t really work so cost effective. But back, say 10 years ago, when you were getting a lot of euros for your money to go over there and have stuff done. But yeah, I mean, I saw cases of just the sort of treatment that would take me sort of six months to do, they were done in three or four days. That someone would go over there and just have full mouth crowns. They were the worst ones. I think the implant ones, they’re more of a problem when stuff goes wrong.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Dr. Andy Moore: But just thinking, my God, they’ve done 24 crowns in a day, and you’re looking at these crowns, and they’ve all got problems around them, and ledges, and it’s just… Yeah, I had a lot of those maybe 10 years or so ago. And we get the odd case here and there, people just, “I’ve had these implants done, and I don’t want to go back.” I used to sort of try and help those people out, but that then became my implant, unfortunately. It became my problem.

Dr. Andy Moore: And you spend two or three hours trying to Google the clinic to try and get some information on what they were and what screws and what type. And I just-

Prav Solanki: Stressful.

Dr. Andy Moore: I had a couple of cases like that where it just became my problem.

Payman: How do you remove an implant? How does that work?

Dr. Andy Moore: It depends whether it’s-

Payman: Integrated or not?

Dr. Andy Moore: If it’s integrated you have to generally to refine around it and then-

Payman: What does that mean?

Dr. Andy Moore: Well just to drill with a hollow drill, yeah. Around the implant to loosen the bone and then we’ve got like a torque wrench that you can just unscrew it. But if it’s failing then it’s sometimes just like taking a wobbly tooth out. So yeah. So it’s taking out the ones that are well integrated-

Payman: And you do grafts and sinus lifts and all that sort of?

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we do that as well. Yeah, we do more… we used to do a lot of block grafting, where we’d take bone from the lower jaw and things. But now we do more bone regeneration techniques, which seem to work really well now with new techniques and stuff.

Prav Solanki: And you’ve taught other dentists, and mentored other dentists, through implant dentistry, right?

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, we run a course at the practise. We do like a two day advanced surgical course, usually four or five times a year. And we have dentists… and I’d do live surgery. We normally have a Thursday and a Friday where we do two cases on a Thursday and two cases on a Friday. It’s good. It’s really good for Dave, it’s quite stressful for me. Having 10 guys all watching as you’re lifting the sinus membrane, and they’re thinking, “I hope he tears this. Then I’ll see him repair it.” I always know what they are thinking. Yeah, and it’s quite hard doing… because they don’t want to see me place a single lowers six inch. It might take 20 minutes. They want to see complicated stuff. So you’ve got to get complicated cases in, and they’re the ones more like to have sort of complications, yeah.

Payman: Do you enjoy the teaching?

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, I do actually. I sometimes, I was thinking to myself, oh, the lead up to it, I say, “Oh, I’ve got courses week.” But just doing the normal day, and then we generally get a really good group of guys in, and they’re dead keen to learn, and it’s a nice social thing, and it’s good for me. Find out what other people are doing, and I enjoy finding out what everyone else is… because it’s a very open thing.

Dr. Andy Moore: It’s not me just standing there and saying, “This is the way we do stuff.” I like, it’s more of an interactive sort of seminars and I get them to try and do a lot of the work, and just to talk about stuff and that works really well and it’s really rewarding, teaching. It is rewarding.

Payman: You learn a lot by teaching.

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, you definitely do. You definitely do. And you just meet some good people. I quite like having people over. We’ve got guys who’ve… I’ve been running the course since I’m opened the practise, so 17 years. And guys who keep coming back and saying, “Oh, I just want you to show me those cases and stuff.” And it’s really good. I really enjoy that and you get to see, get to meet a few nice guys.

Prav Solanki: Do the courses generate referring dentists as well for you?

Dr. Andy Moore: They used to. But we’ve sort of exhausted pretty much all the close to home dentists now.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Dr. Andy Moore: So most of those, if they were going to come on the course, they would’ve been already. But yeah, we used to generate that. I mean it’s quite a lot of the guys who came on the course originally are doing the same sort of stuff as me now.

Payman: Oh, cool.

Dr. Andy Moore: So that’s really good to hear. But now we get people from all over. I got a guy from Australia, so I was pretty impressed. I don’t know if he was over here for something else. I don’t think he came over especially. But yeah, a lot of guys from Ireland, guys from Europe. So yeah, it’s good.

Payman: What percentage of the work is by referral, and what percentage are your own?

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, I reckon probably the implant stuff is 35% referral, and the other 60% is through google, word of mouth. Those, with Prav looking after my website, we still do well on getting lots of hits on the website. And so I think you need that balance. I’ve always thought you… because you find that your referrals, they retire. Some of them retires, bit selfish, but they retire, and stop sending new patients. And then you’ll have guys who go, “You know what, I reckon I could do that.” And then they start placing their own implants, so they dry up.

Dr. Andy Moore: So you need that balance really. You need the balance between getting the patients from the local dentists sending stuff to you, as well as your own patients coming to you sort of through word of mouth. Like I said. Yeah, so.

Dr. Andy Moore: But a lot of the guys, the best referrals tend to be the ones who do the restorative. So they’ll send the patient to me for the surgery, and I’ll get it all teed up for them and then they go back and take an impression and do the final crown. So it’s a good way of doing it.

Prav Solanki: Andy, you’re very very good friends with probably one of the most successful businessmen in the world.

Dr. Andy Moore: What, you?

Prav Solanki: Richard-

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah Richard, we met years and years ago. Just one of those chance meetings on holiday.

Payman: Richard Branson?

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah. So that was one of those, another one of those sliding door moments in your life there. And we’ve stayed friends for 20 years or so.

Payman: Where was you? What happened? How did you meet-

Dr. Andy Moore: We were in Mallorca, and he had a hotel there, and we were staying there. It was me and my wife before we had kids. And we were having lunch, and he came up to me and said, “Oh, you look like the sort of guy who might want to make up a four for tennis.” And I was like, “Oh yeah.” And back in those days, a holiday for me, it was a proper holiday. I didn’t use to take any sports care with me or anything. I’d sit by the pool and read and those. They were the good old days. So I cobbled together some sports gear and borrowed a racket and I could hit a tennis ball, not very well, but. And so I made up a four tennis, and then we sort of hit it off, and that evening we had sort of bit dinner together, and he’s into his chess. And I used to play chess when I was a schoolboy.

Prav Solanki: So you played chess together?

Dr. Andy Moore: So I played chess with him, and he’s good. He’s pretty good at chess. And I think he had too much to drink, but I kept beating him at chess, and he wouldn’t let me go to bed until he’d beaten me. So we stayed up until wee early hours, and we still play chess together. It’s still very competitive. That’s one of our things we do. So yeah, it a good meeting that one.

Payman: You’ve been to the island?

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, we go there most years. So yeah, we go there and we’ve got a core friends that all go together. So yeah, it’s great. And the kids, my kids have grown up going over there. They’ve been going there for-

Prav Solanki: I remember receiving a text from Mandy one day and he said, “I’m sat here next to…” Was it Larry Page?

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, I do know Larry.

Prav Solanki: Google.

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: He’s like, “I’m sat here next to Larry Page. You got any questions for him?”

Dr. Andy Moore: I thought you might be able to get me up on the rankings. I don’t think he’s quite… He’s not quite as focused on my website as he should be.

Prav Solanki: I don’t think that’s his priority.

Dr. Andy Moore: I’m not sure it is. He’s got an island next to Richard’s. So he’s a big kite surfer, so we often go out kite surfing.

Payman: He kite surfs?

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, yeah. So we’ll often do a trip over with Larry, and he’s a proper Californian sort of techno guy. He really is.

Payman: These super duper dudes, do they, I know they’re just like us and all that, but are they busy to the extent that they suddenly have to leave?

Dr. Andy Moore: No, they don’t seem to be. Richards always… I mean, they’re just so smart, I just… it’s hard to quantify. But I have sat down and had lunch with Larry Page and stuff. After kite surfing, we’ve sat done, and you sort of start quizzing him about what the next thing is.

Payman: Yeah.

Dr. Andy Moore: And you just go, “I haven’t even thought of that.” Just the stuff they’ve got going on is incredible. And they just think differently, I think, these guys. They’ve just got, and as they get more successful, yeah, they don’t do that. Just rushing off and doing stuff. They’ve got other people who do all that stuff.

Prav Solanki: That’s good to know.

Dr. Andy Moore: He’ll go out kite surfing, he loves kite surfing. He’s just just absolutely all over it. And he’ll go out kite surfing like four hours and stuff. He loves it. But yeah, they’re very, so switched on. Yeah, yeah. It’s-

Prav Solanki: Do you ever talk shop? Or is it all about the fun, enjoying that time together?

Dr. Andy Moore: I mean Richard, we talk about business. And I’ve got a lot of tips, business wise, from him. Not direct tips, just seeing the way he treats people. He’s such a good person with people. He’s so genuine and he treats his staff with so much respect. I’ve learned a lot from that, the way he is with people. And he’s always on the button. It doesn’t matter what business it is, he can cut through whether dentistry or-

Payman: Spaceships.

Dr. Andy Moore: -spaceships or trains or anything. For him, he goes straight to the core of things very quickly. So he’s quite a good person just to ask about stuff. But yeah, we don’t talk about my business too much. Seems to be insignificant when you’re going into space.

Payman: Are you not his dentist?

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah. I do do some stuff for him. He’s so busy. He’s all over the place.

Payman: You can’t get the channels for him.

Dr. Andy Moore: He drives me mad sometime, because he’ll go and have some treatment done somewhere else. “Oh, I just got work. I had to saw this dentist in Miami.” And I’m like, “Why didn’t you just come and see me?” He said, “Well, it’s quite a long way.” He lives in the Caribbean most of the time now, so it’s a long time. It’s a long way for him to come all the way over to me for a crown. So, but no, we don’t keep it separate, but it is sort of one of those things where if he wants me, I’ll help him out.

Prav Solanki: So Andy, it’s your last day on the planet, and there’s three bits of advice you can leave behind for the world. What are they?

Dr. Andy Moore: Don’t work too hard. I think that’s a good one. Just… don’t know. I think you’ve got to really grasp opportunities, and it is quite hard because sometimes you’re going to be held back by your doubts and stuff, but go with your instincts. I mean I’m a big one for that. Just seeing something and thinking, “Yeah, I’m going to go for it.”

Prav Solanki: Go for that.

Dr. Andy Moore: Because you don’t want to regret stuff. You don’t want to regret not doing things. It’s not often you regret doing things. There’s probably a few things.

Payman: Yeah. It depends on what things you’ve done really.

Dr. Andy Moore: But most of the time you regret when you don’t do something. And we’re talking smaller stuff. But yeah, I would definitely say-

Prav Solanki: Take every opportunity.

Dr. Andy Moore: -take every opportunity and just don’t be a person who’s thinking, oh I wish I had done that. Because things sort of have a reason that they turn out, don’t they? It just seems to work that way sometimes.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Payman: And you’re one of the top implant surgeons in the country that undoubtedly, and-

Dr. Andy Moore: That’s what you’re saying.

Payman: You are, you are.

Prav Solanki: Without a doubt.

Dr. Andy Moore: I’ll take that from you.

Prav Solanki: Without a doubt.

Payman: And yet… I was going to say, yet so humble with it. And we were discussing before, a little bit under the radar. Not that many people have heard of you that, of course many have in your area, I’m sure. But considering your profile, considering what you’ve achieved, is that on purpose?

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, it probably is because I think… I used to teach at the Royal college a lot and I just, I really enjoyed the teaching element of it. It was just the underlying sort of politic of it always sort of, I always thought that it’s not really my thing, and I like doing my own thing. I like doing my own thing too much to get involved with committees and things. And you need people to do stuff like that, and you’ve got to take your hat off to the people who are doing it. Because if they weren’t doing it, that things wouldn’t work out quite as well for everybody else. But I’m definitely… yeah, I like to just keep my head down and stuff and just, I’m happy with my own lot in a way. I don’t need to-

Payman: I mean how’d you become Andy Moore? I mean the-

Dr. Andy Moore: You’ll have to ask mum and dad that. I don’t know about that one.

Payman: If you had to pin down sort of a key thing?

Dr. Andy Moore: Is it for a dentist?

Payman: Yeah. Let’s say there’s some young kid listing now who’s two years out, and he wants to be like you, what are the key strengths, the key things?

Dr. Andy Moore: The key things I would say, if you want to develop a practise, is get just good at normal dentistry.

Payman: But why? I mean if you could do [crosstalk]

Dr. Andy Moore: Because I think you need those skills. You need to see people. No, well that implants came to me much later.

Prav Solanki: 10 years, yeah.

Dr. Andy Moore: You don’t go straight in, and I think… I often see guys who are newly qualified and they want to… and it’s brilliant. And I’m not saying you shouldn’t have ambition, but I think sometimes you’ve got to learn to deal with people before you start-

Payman: Let’s say I’m Mr. Charisma. Let’s say I’m two years out, and I’m really good with people, and I want to do implants. It goes down to that sort of work on your strengths or work on your weaknesses-

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, well I think what you want to do is you want to build a rapport with the sort of people that, I’m talking patients, who you’re going to be treating for a long time. So you’ve got to be in it, it’s the long game. You can’t chop and change practises. “Oh that practise is good, I’ll go there. Or these are doing more implants, I’ll go there.”

Dr. Andy Moore: You’ve got to build your base-

Payman: That’s true.

Dr. Andy Moore: -and you’ve got to have that. I mean for me, I think being in the same area. I mean, sometimes I just think, because I didn’t come to Chelmsford on purpose. I came there as a six month stop gap before I went to something else. That’s a bit scary, because I never left the street. Which is… I don’t know what it says about me. Either I’m really lazy or… But I really enjoyed that.

Dr. Andy Moore: I enjoyed treating those people, and enjoyed the work. Yes. I still enjoy the actual bits of dentistry now, the actual mechanics of it. But I enjoyed treating those people and developing Rapport with those people. And I think if you then move on somewhere else, then you’ve got to build a whole new sort of good wIll up. I think staying things in somewhere for the long game, and getting good at the general bits of dentistry so that you can focus on the other bits.

Dr. Andy Moore: So you don’t want to be worrying about doing, if you’re newly qualified, don’t want be thinking about, “I’ll go to do an implant tomorrow, I’m really going to be…” It’s got to be something that comes as a natural thing, so you can then focus on all the other stuff. Because you’ll be looking after the patient, making sure the patient’s happy with the plan, making sure they’re comfortable when they come into the practise. That you’ve got all those. That, like you say, when you come to the practise, you get that feeling that-

Prav Solanki: It’s magical.

Dr. Andy Moore: -it’s a nice place to have a treatment done. And that’s what you want all the patients to feel.

Dr. Andy Moore: So if you can get good at doing the dentistry side of things. Either with… I don’t think you should do too many courses. I think you should keep your education up and focus on one area you’re really interested in. But don’t go overload on, because you need to do the miles. It’s a bit like my daughter’s passed her driving test recently. I said, “When you pass your test, you’ll do way more miles, and you become a better driver.” And she says, “Well you can’t be better than just when you pass your test.” You will because you get so many more situations that come along. So you need to be able to go through all these situations to… there won’t be many times that you get surprised by the things patients do or come in with. So you don’t want to be in that situation where you’re having to think about things too much.

Payman: Do you ever feel like slowing down?

Dr. Andy Moore: I have slowed down. In the last-

Payman: Have you?

Dr. Andy Moore: In terms of work?

Payman: Yeah.

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, yeah. I have slowed down, and I’ve got a long term plan, which is to slow down and let the other guys take over more and more work. So yeah, I do less hours now than I did three years ago. But when I’m working, I’m working. I actually want to have a really busy day, I want to-

Payman: Long days?

Dr. Andy Moore: Not long days, no. A busy day. I don’t work long hours. Because I don’t think that’s… it interrupts my training besides. No, but also, I think it… there’s one thing about getting old, even though I try and fight against it. You just get more tired.

Payman: Yeah.

Dr. Andy Moore: And I won’t work after five. I don’t work Saturdays and stuff like that. So I generally will finish a bit early on a Monday. Work full Tuesday, have either Wednesday off, or just work in the morning. I’ll work all day Thursday and then I’ll finish early on a Friday, one o’clock on a Friday. So I work, but when I’m working I really am working, I want the day to fly by and to do lots of fun, interesting things and to have a productive day.

Dr. Andy Moore: But yeah, I have slowed down, and I reckon I’ll gradually try and pinch another morning off. And so to go down to maybe three and a half days a week soon, and just do it that way, really. Rather than just suddenly go, “Oh, I’m going to pack up now.” Don’t think that’s going to work.

Prav Solanki: Have you got an exit strategy Andy?

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, really just that. I don’t see, at the moment, that selling the practise to one of the big corporates, and they say, “Go work for me for 5 years.”

Prav Solanki: Tie you in.

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, that would kill me I think. Because I love being my own boss. I like making my own decisions and just going, “You know what, I’m going to buy a new sewing machine because I think that’ll be a really good thing to have in the practise.” Or, “Let’s just do something different.” And I’d be really worried about someone else coming over and taking all those things off me. So I don’t see myself doing that at the moment. But maybe more towards just winding down until, because I like doing dentistry, I’d just like to do… if I could do maybe three days a fortnight or something like that, just to do the bigger cases and have the rest of the team running the practise.

Prav Solanki: What would you do on the other days?

Dr. Andy Moore: I don’t know. I can’t ride my bike anymore. I do now. I don’t know. I think it just… With that broken arm I had in the summer, the first week was murder for me because I was like, “Oh man, what am I doing at home?” And then actually, it was a nice summer.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Dr. Andy Moore: I sort of got into it, and scarily I sort of quite enjoyed it, not going to work. And the first few weeks I was popping in and seeing what they were doing. In the end I was like, “I’m not going to even bother popping in. I’m just getting in the way.”

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Dr. Andy Moore: So I actually quite liked it. Yeah I know, I quite liked it. Taking the dog for a walk. And your day goes by really quick when you got the World Cup and the Tour de France to get through. And getting up late or reading the paper and stuff. So, I don’t think I’d have any problem with retirement, but I think my bank manager might, and my wife. Yeah, and my wife. More importantly, my wife might. So yeah, I think I’ve got to keep it going for a bit longer.

Payman: What do you think you would’ve been if you weren’t a dentist?

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, well I started doing physics at university.

Payman: Oh yeah?

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah. And I realised that I just wasn’t smart enough for any of that. It was just so complicated for me. I thought I was quite good at maths and things and I was like, “Oh my God, this is… I can’t. I can’t. I don’t think I can do this.” So I only did a term.

Payman: You dropped out.

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, I did a term, and I just realised it wasn’t for me. And my sister just qualified as a dentist. So I went and spent a couple of days, and thought, oh yeah, this looks all right. I think this, I’ll give it a go. It’s hard to make decisions when you’re 18, what you want to do for the rest of your life, isn’t it?

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Dr. Andy Moore: And so yeah, maybe I would have been some sort of physics type person. I don’t know. It could have been on the start of, it was just as computers are getting going and all that. I could’ve been involved with that, but I don’t know. I like people, I couldn’t see myself being in an office or anything like that. I think… I liked seeing different people.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Payman: Well it’s been really lovely speaking to you.

Dr. Andy Moore: Oh, good thank you.

Payman: It really has. I want to just thank you a lot for-

Prav Solanki: Thanks for sharing Andy.

Payman: Yeah sharing, and coming all the way here to do it.

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah cheers.

Payman: I think there’s still a whole lot. Well normally we start these things by saying, “Where were you born?”

Dr. Andy Moore: Oh right.

Payman: We get the whole backstory, but because I so much wanted to know about Advanced-

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah.

Payman: So it’d be great to have you back another time, go backwards then-

Dr. Andy Moore: Yeah, no, well I was born in Grimsby, if that helps. So I don’t think you need to do anymore research on that one. So yeah. But thanks guys.

Prav Solanki: Thank you. Cheers Andy.

Payman: Thanks a lot. We appreciate it.

Dr. Andy Moore: Thanks a lot, appreciate it.

Speaker 4: This is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Hey guys, and thank you for listening to today’s episode of the Dental Leaders podcast, a vision that myself and Payman had over two years ago now. And if you have got some value out of today, just hit the subscribe button in iTunes or Google play or whatever you’re listening to. Let us know in your comments what you actually got out of the episode. Because we love sitting back and reading those reviews. It really does make our day.

Payman: It’s a real pleasure to do this. It’s fun to do, but I’m really humbled that you’re actually listening all the way through to the end. And join us again, if you got some value out of…