Month: September 2024

Awaz Sharief: I was doing this research, like I told you, and I was like, I need to get this word out there. And I just had this vision. I’m going to be speaking [00:00:05] at the British Dental Conference. So I called and I emailed and they [00:00:10] were like, okay, yeah, you can talk, but you need to find a sponsor. Yeah. That’s what I was.

Payman Langroudi: Saying about is there a company behind.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah, [00:00:15] yeah. You need to. And then I’m like, where am I going to find a sponsor? And they’re like, well, you’re just gonna have to find someone, right? [00:00:20] So so I contacted Septagon and they were like, oh, they were quoting, you know, [00:00:25] the conference. They were like, oh, it’s going to just for that, I think 45 minute session. They were quoting [00:00:30] like 2 or 3 grand and Septagon is like, no, we’re not going to sponsor that. Like we don’t even know who you are. [00:00:35] Yeah. Like you don’t you’ve not even built your credibility. And I just thought, right, okay. And then I tried the European. [00:00:40] No. What was it, the British endodontic society. But they’d already given their slots to someone [00:00:45] else. And then I tried to get in contact. I think Dental Directory were doing one as well, and my dentist [00:00:50] would do one, but they’d all given their slots away. So I’m like, oh my gosh, what am I going to do? And then, um, the [00:00:55] lady on the phone that I kept calling, she saw how passionate I was. And you know what she said to me? She said, do you know [00:01:00] what call us like. Like message us or contact us. A month before, because [00:01:05] sometimes some people drop out. Sometimes we have empty slots and if no one else takes them, we’ll just give them [00:01:10] to you. Like we can see how passionate you are. So that’s what I did. A month before I’m like, you know, have you got any empty slots? [00:01:15] And then so that’s when they gave me my first session, so I didn’t even have to have a sponsor.

[VOICE]: This [00:01:20] is Dental Leaders, the [00:01:25] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [00:01:30] leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:01:40] gives me great pleasure to welcome our Sharif onto the podcast hours. As a young dentist with a special [00:01:45] interest in minimally invasive endodontics, which doesn’t mean what I thought it meant [00:01:50] before I looked into it. Um, so we’ll get into that. Um, also [00:01:55] lecturing on Endo, um, the turbulent early early [00:02:00] career. And now, on top of everything, we haven’t seen a dentist so excited [00:02:05] for a little while. So lovely to have you. Ours.

Awaz Sharief: Thank you. Thank you very much. It’s lovely to be here.

Payman Langroudi: Coming all the way from Manchester [00:02:10] as well? Yes, yes. Which you’re saying it’s raining in Manchester? No, yesterday. It was raining yesterday, to be honest.

Awaz Sharief: This morning [00:02:15] it was raining as well. And I come into London and it’s nice and sunny and I’m so hot and I’m like not dressed for it. [00:02:20]

Payman Langroudi: So listen, I want to sometimes we normally start with the backstory but but sometimes I’ve [00:02:25] got a burning question and I just need to get the burning question out first and then whatever else happens, let’s go for [00:02:30] it. So minimally invasive endodontics. I thought it meant these [00:02:35] sort of very tiny access cavities. Access. Um, yeah. Preparations. [00:02:40] And then trying to get this access preparation to be as straight line as possible. So you’re removing [00:02:45] as little dentine as possible. And I thought that was that. But reading [00:02:50] your work and everything about what you’re doing, that there’s a pulpotomy [00:02:55] approach to it where you’re not doing the full endo and kind of trying to save the vitality [00:03:00] of the tooth. Yeah. Um, firstly, I [00:03:05] could just hear dentists all over the country saying, Thank God. Celebrating. Yeah. Celebrating [00:03:10] that they don’t have to do a full endo. So how come we haven’t heard about this? How new is it? [00:03:15] Is it that I don’t know what I’m talking about or is it very.

Awaz Sharief: So, you know, that’s a really good question. And [00:03:20] that’s why I wanted to get the message out there, because I’m actually doing a master’s in endodontics. And [00:03:25] we had a lecture and it was on this topic, and I was just blown away. And [00:03:30] I thought, whoa. Like, this is this is the first time I’ve heard of this. And then when I’m, when I, in [00:03:35] my final year, do my dissertation, I decided that I wanted my research topic to be on this topic because I [00:03:40] wanted to actually apply it in clinical practice. And I thought, well, what better way to research this topic [00:03:45] than actually choosing this as my research topic? So when I started researching into [00:03:50] it and I was fascinated, I was reading so many papers and articles and, and, [00:03:55] you know, randomised clinical trials. And I was shocked to see that a lot of like more [00:04:00] than 90% of these randomised clinical trials were getting above, you know, 95% [00:04:05] success rates. Um, and that’s just traditionally diagnosed with irreversible pulpitis. But it [00:04:10] has to be vital. And I’m just thinking, okay, how do I get how do I replicate those results. So [00:04:15] I looked at all of those studies that were randomised clinical trials that had above 90% success [00:04:20] rates. And I went through their protocol and and over time, after reading so many articles, [00:04:25] I realised that there was a pattern. They were using the same procedure. So I replicated that procedure and I [00:04:30] applied it in my own clinical practice, and I was getting very similar results.

Awaz Sharief: And so then I [00:04:35] just thought, oh my gosh, this is mind blowing. This is amazing. I’m finally starting to get predictability. And even when it came to [00:04:40] I mean, I’m sure everybody I think everybody dentist, every dentist relates to this where you get a [00:04:45] patient who comes in, they’ve got deep caries and it’s like, damned if you do, damned if you don’t. You always [00:04:50] warn the patient, you know, I can go ahead and fill it. The patient is asymptomatic, but you might be in pain. [00:04:55] Or do we just do an elective root canal, or do we just remove a little bit of the caries? You [00:05:00] know how much of the caries you actually remove. So that that’s a dilemma I think every dentist can relate to. And obviously as a general [00:05:05] dentist, I had those cases all the time. So I thought, well, let me do the research to see what does the research [00:05:10] actually say. And actually by doing the research, I was able to make that distinction and I [00:05:15] had confidence to know, okay, well, I know now when I go and do a root canal, I [00:05:20] know now when I can just remove some of the caries. And I know now when to do a pulpotomy, [00:05:25] I guess. So um, once I started to get that predictability and I, you know, [00:05:30] I hadn’t using this technique, I haven’t had a single patient come back to me in pain, you know, with those who’ve got deep [00:05:35] caries, and which is great because as dentists, we never want patients to be in pain.

Awaz Sharief: And it’s [00:05:40] always unfortunate when we get a patient who comes in, they’re not in pain. And you tell them, look, you [00:05:45] need a filling doing. And they’re like, you know, not convinced because they’re not getting any pain. And then you do a filling and now they’re in pain [00:05:50] and they think it’s your fault, even though you’ve worn them. So to have this predictability, where none of my patients are [00:05:55] coming back in pain, I just knew that every dentist would relate to it. So I just had [00:06:00] this aha moment and I was like, I need to get this message out across to as many dentists as possible. And it just came from a [00:06:05] genuine, pure place of I want to help other dentists. And that’s what really inspired me [00:06:10] to, um, you know, start talking about this. I went to and started speaking at various [00:06:15] different conferences across the country and actually got a lot of a lot of dentists who were like as as [00:06:20] excited and passionate about this as I was. So, um, that’s how it started. But in relation to what you would [00:06:25] what you initially said about minimally invasive endodontics, a part of it is that minimal access. But [00:06:30] another part of it is, yeah, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: A different part of it.

Awaz Sharief: It’s a different part of it. Yeah. That’s the part that I’m really interested in. [00:06:35]

Payman Langroudi: So look, by the time something makes it onto a master’s course, [00:06:40] it’s already been around 15, 20 years.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah, it has actually this started [00:06:45] in the year 2000. So it’s been about what, 24 years. But that’s when it so. [00:06:50]

Payman Langroudi: Interesting how it hasn’t made it like out of Indo masters. Like the story’s [00:06:55] not really out there that it’s. So my understanding is that traditional [00:07:00] way of diagnosing sort of reversible or irreversible pulpitis isn’t [00:07:05] so helpful in this situation, is that right? Yeah.

Awaz Sharief: Actually there’s there’s been talks about scrapping [00:07:10] the whole, um, diagnostic, you know, the old diagnostic system of reversible, irreversible [00:07:15] and actually just having different levels of pulpitis. So you’ve got initial pulpitis, you’ve got, you know, [00:07:20] and then severe pulpitis, moderate severe. Yeah. So, so.

Payman Langroudi: So then just I know I know, you know, you’ve [00:07:25] done your research on it but but just distil it for us. If I’m a dentist [00:07:30] it’s a deep hole. At what. How do I know when I should remove all the caries [00:07:35] and risk going into the pulp, or when I should definitely do that and do a pulpotomy? [00:07:40] Yeah. Is a pulpotomy different to what it was when I learned it in dental school?

Awaz Sharief: Not much.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. [00:07:45] What are the materials? Is it MTA?

Awaz Sharief: Yeah. Mta or by COVID-19. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So tell [00:07:50] us, tell us that. Just that. That simple story of it. It’s a deep amalgam. I get there, I’m [00:07:55] near the pulp. How do I know? How do I know whether I should not go in or whether I should go [00:08:00] in?

Awaz Sharief: Very good question. So the first thing is, if you know that it’s a deeply carious tooth, you need to make sure [00:08:05] that you’ve got what we call an aseptic procedure. So that means that you need to have rubber dam. You [00:08:10] need to make sure that there’s no saliva getting contaminated because a lot of research has been [00:08:15] done. And there’s a very popular research that’s quoted in the In the Endodontic World by [00:08:20] Takahashi back in 1965. And that is that as long as you can keep a bacteria free environment, [00:08:25] the pulp has the ability to regenerate itself. So if you can keep a bacteria [00:08:30] free zone, there’s differences of opinion. But going back to the scenario that you [00:08:35] said about the amalgam, you know, or like you’re you’re drilling out all of the carriers, you’re close to the [00:08:40] pulp. And the way I would do it is that if I’ve got an aseptic procedure. So I’m using [00:08:45] rubber dam. They also recommend that you actually disinfect the tooth as well before you go in with the burr. With what? [00:08:50] And so just use you can either use like um chlorhexidine or you can use sodium [00:08:55] hypochlorite, just a cotton pledget. And the idea is if there is any bacteria on the surface of the tooth, [00:09:00] you’re just disinfecting it. So when you go in with your burr, the, you know, the bacteria isn’t actually going [00:09:05] into, into, you know, the deeper, um, areas of the tooth. So, um, [00:09:10] if, if I removed all the caries and I can’t see the pulp, even though I know it’s close at that point, what I would [00:09:15] do is I’d do I’d use by dentine and then I’d put, you know, GIC over the top of that resin, modified [00:09:20] GIC, and then I would just restore it.

Awaz Sharief: And we don’t really do amalgam so much now. So I do composite, you [00:09:25] know. Of course. And that’s what I would do now, um, if I went in and I actually had a pulp [00:09:30] exposure. Um, so I removed all the caries. I had a pulp exposure. What I would do at that point [00:09:35] is that I would actually have to monitor how the pulp looks like. So you would need magnification, you [00:09:40] would need good light. And then there are certain clues that would indicate there’s actually a necrotic pulp that you’d need [00:09:45] to remove. So telltale signs obviously it’s not bleeding if you’ve exposed and it’s not bleeding, [00:09:50] that’s a telltale sign. However, if it is bleeding and it’s bleeding profusely to the [00:09:55] point where you can’t achieve haemostasia. And so haemostasia is basically where you apply pressure for [00:10:00] about five minutes. And if the bleeding doesn’t stop, that’s that’s basically classed as a an inflamed [00:10:05] pulp. So you’d need to just remove, keep removing and part of the pulp until you’re [00:10:10] actually able to get down to healthy pulp. And healthy pulp looks like it’s got to be bleeding, [00:10:15] but it’s not bleeding profusely, so it’s not bleeding outside of the actual cavity. So so [00:10:20] long as the and I’ve got pictures, um, as well, I’ve actually published a paper, um, [00:10:25] with the dentistry magazine. So I’ve got a picture of actually how a healthy bleeding pulp looks like. So once [00:10:30] I get there, then I stop and and that that would basically be my benchmark. So it’s every tooth [00:10:35] is different. So having a one size fits all isn’t really going to work because stop.

Payman Langroudi: And then MTA [00:10:40] or bio.

Awaz Sharief: Dent. Yeah yeah. But yeah basically by Dental and then fill it and that’s it. But [00:10:45] obviously if you’ve got a multi-rooted tooth, you have to do that with all of the all of the canals.

Payman Langroudi: So then is [00:10:50] there has there been there must have been studies on how far does the bacteria from the caries [00:10:55] get into the pulp. So it’s at the point that that you’re removing the infected [00:11:00] part of the pulp.

Awaz Sharief: Yes, yes.

Payman Langroudi: That’s it. The rest of the part is not infected. It’s [00:11:05] affected. Yes. Is that what.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah. Yeah. Basically. Yeah. So it’s. And [00:11:10] that’s how it all came about because they realised that with them they did a research study and [00:11:15] they actually looked at teeth who were extracted and diagnosed with irreversible pulpitis. And they [00:11:20] looked at it through histology. And they realised actually the majority of the infection and inflammation [00:11:25] is just in the pulp chamber. So that’s when they said, so why are we why are we removing the whole pulp when the [00:11:30] pulp when in the majority of these cases it’s just limited to the pulp chamber. So that’s why [00:11:35] and obviously how infected it is and how deep it is, is dependent on each tooth. You can’t really that’s why [00:11:40] you have to.

Payman Langroudi: And what if it is necrotic that. Does that mean that that needs an RCT full stop? Yeah.

Awaz Sharief: So what [00:11:45] I would do is I would keep drilling until I get down to the canals. So if I remove the pulp chamber and it’s still necrotic, [00:11:50] then that’s when you know, it’s a true you know, it’s truly necrotic, then that needs a root canal. [00:11:55] But um, the tooth is actually can regenerate itself if you can remove the inflamed infected pulp, [00:12:00] that as long as you’ve got healthy pulp that’s there, the body can take care of itself. As long as that’s why [00:12:05] Byzantine is so good for that, because actually encourages the healing. Um, in the past we didn’t have [00:12:10] Byzantine, so that’s why we weren’t able to use this technique. And it wasn’t as effective in the past. [00:12:15]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but but is there ever a situation where I go into the pulp? It’s not bleeding. I drill, drill, [00:12:20] drill, and then suddenly it’s bleeding? Or is that not something that can sometimes happen?

Awaz Sharief: Oh, really? If you remove the necrotic [00:12:25] portion.

Payman Langroudi: And now I hit blood, now I can stop. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If I get haemostasia. [00:12:30]

Awaz Sharief: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Is that. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And and I take it if there’s any sign of [00:12:35] periapical infection then that’s.

Awaz Sharief: A very good question. Actually, there’s quite a few papers that were published [00:12:40] publish that. If you can see a periapical radiolucency, as long as the tooth is still vital, you should give the tooth the benefit [00:12:45] of the doubt, because the peripheral radiolucency doesn’t actually doesn’t always indicate that the tooth is [00:12:50] necrotic. All right. Yeah, it’s very interesting, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: I suppose if it’s multi-rooted right, one [00:12:55] root could be and one. Yeah.

Awaz Sharief: So that’s why seeing the healthy bleeding pulp is important. As [00:13:00] long as you see healthy bleeding pulp, you’re good to go.

Payman Langroudi: How interesting is that?

Awaz Sharief: Yeah, man.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:13:05] your interest in endo is not only in this kind of endo. It’s like fully [00:13:10] endo like you get you get you get referrals I get referrals.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah. Referrals.

Payman Langroudi: So endo. [00:13:15]

Awaz Sharief: Yeah. Yeah. So basically all kind of like, you know complex cases I do get referrals within the practice outside [00:13:20] the practice. And so I do I mean I love endo I love endo from dental school. And I knew that I wanted to take [00:13:25] it further. And it’s just that when I did my master’s and I thought, oh my gosh, this is amazing.

Payman Langroudi: What was it? Was [00:13:30] it was it one particular teacher or what was it? Because all of us hate it. But in dental school, [00:13:35] you know.

Awaz Sharief: I went to Liverpool and I think that the teaching at Liverpool was really good back [00:13:40] in my day. I don’t know what it’s like now so.

Payman Langroudi: I’m sure it’s great.

Awaz Sharief: Um, so [00:13:45] it was really good. And um, I just remember just reading, you know, just we had [00:13:50] like a course like, you know, like a operative skill suite course and on the Phantom Heads. And I [00:13:55] just remember being fascinated. I just, I was so fascinated with how precise it is, and it kind of. It’s in line [00:14:00] with my personality, I would say, like, I’m someone who is willing to put [00:14:05] the effort in and then see the results after. I’m not like a quick fix kind of person. And [00:14:10] I love the idea of saving teeth. So for me, I was just fascinated with the with how precise it was and how accurate it was. And [00:14:15] step one, step two, step three. Like, I just loved it. Um, so then I just remember, um, just [00:14:20] like reading, reading around the subject and then it just clicked. And for me.

Payman Langroudi: Go on, go on. When you say [00:14:25] it clicked. Yeah. What was the moment where just a regular window clicked for you?

Awaz Sharief: I [00:14:30] was at dental school. I was at dental school. And, um, I just remember, um, [00:14:35] just doing, you know, researching, um, you know, reading around the subject within the phantom [00:14:40] heads with regards to endodontics and just like reading and then just thinking to [00:14:45] myself, okay, right. This this makes sense to me. You know, all the steps that you go through in terms [00:14:50] of like, coronal flaring and then shaping and cleaning and, um, you know, disinfection, [00:14:55] irrigation, all of that. It was just solid in my mind. And then I did it on a patient and [00:15:00] I got so much, you know, good feedback from, from the tutors that I had that I was like, you know, I love this. And I think [00:15:05] I think it really does make a difference. If you start off having good experiences, you’re obviously going to get bad experiences [00:15:10] down the line, but those bad experiences aren’t going to really put you off as much because you know you’ve got good experience. Whereas [00:15:15] I think for a lot of dentists, they tend to not have good experiences. And then it just kind of really puts them off and [00:15:20] they just want to refer everything out. So I think for me, dental school really gave me a solid foundation. And, [00:15:25] you know, it was um, you know, I’m quite religious. And it was I just remember [00:15:30] being, I think I was in my third year dental school, and it was just such a random thing that I [00:15:35] prayed for. And I was like, I really pray that because at one point I didn’t really understand Endo. And I just remember [00:15:40] praying that I hope that I understand endo so much, that I love it and [00:15:45] it becomes my passion. And I can’t believe that it’s that now I’m actually living, living that prayer.

Payman Langroudi: So, [00:15:50] you know, you know, like if you pray for something and it happens. Yeah, that [00:15:55] sort of reaffirms your belief in the thing. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Do you ever get the opposite? [00:16:00] Like something terrible happens in your life and you think that’s so [00:16:05] unfair? And I, that’s not the God I believe in. Does that ever happen?

Awaz Sharief: No, that’s never happened. [00:16:10]

Payman Langroudi: Because do you also get positive feedback if something awful happens as well? Yeah. Yeah.

Awaz Sharief: I mean like like, [00:16:15] you know, there’s always there’s always something positive out of everything. So so I’ll tell you something. At [00:16:20] dental school, I actually, um, I actually failed one of my years and it was the [00:16:25] clinical side. Um, and that was the clinic. So I was fine [00:16:30] academically. I’ve always been fine. I’ve always been a straight A student. But. And when it came to the clinical side, it was always [00:16:35] something that I was it was just a confidence thing. Like like I told you, I’m very precise. And for me, if [00:16:40] it wasn’t perfect, it wasn’t good enough. And I just felt very self conscious that, oh my gosh, it’s not perfect. So it’s not good enough. [00:16:45] And you know, I just used to get really worked up and I actually failed my fourth year. Um, [00:16:50] and again it was just purely clinical. Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: Which subject was it?

Awaz Sharief: It was the clinical. [00:16:55] I did just the clinical. It was just the clinical side. Yeah. Because, you know, every time we went on the clinic.

Payman Langroudi: Why are you telling [00:17:00] me you failed? Why, why where were we? Why were you telling me the story?

Awaz Sharief: So about about faith and [00:17:05] God and how things go wrong? Yeah. Go on, go on. So, yeah. So I actually did fail it. And, um, [00:17:10] you know, obviously I was devastated at the time, but it actually turned out to be one of my best years [00:17:15] when I, when I reset that year, because I reset that year and it just allowed me to reset [00:17:20] everything. It found.

Payman Langroudi: The good in it.

Awaz Sharief: Like I found so much good in it. You know, at the end of the year, I was like, I don’t [00:17:25] want this year to end. Like, I’m going to go into final year now. And, um, it’s just really gonna, um, you [00:17:30] know, obviously the stress of but on the.

Payman Langroudi: On the faith point, on the faith point. Since we’re talking about faith.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah, yeah. [00:17:35]

Payman Langroudi: Has anything ever made you go? I question my faith.

Awaz Sharief: Not [00:17:40] really. No. Love that. What about you?

Payman Langroudi: Are you quite religious enterprise? [00:17:45] No, no, no, not at all. Not at all.

Awaz Sharief: Not at all. Do you believe in God?

Payman Langroudi: No.

Awaz Sharief: Oh, that’s a shame. [00:17:50] Yeah. Have you never believed in God? It’s difficult.

Payman Langroudi: Not believing.

Awaz Sharief: Isn’t it hard, [00:17:55] though? Like, do you not find it depressing like that? You just die and that’s it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. [00:18:00]

Awaz Sharief: Gosh.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s harder. And it’s also harder. Like, you know, [00:18:05] like I’ve got a friend. I was with him last night, and, you know, if if life’s getting really hard. [00:18:10] I mean, he’s a he’s a top surgeon, one of the world’s top surgeons. Yeah. And he and he was talking about, [00:18:15] you know, there’s some operations that some situations where he doesn’t know what to do and [00:18:20] what, you know, and, and he thinks it’ll be all right. Yeah. Because someone’s looking out [00:18:25] for me. Yeah. Yeah. I haven’t got that. Yeah. And there have been moments in life where I wanted [00:18:30] that.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Awaz Sharief: But have you ever prayed then? No. Have you never [00:18:35] been so desperate that you just call out and pray? Sure.

Payman Langroudi: But I don’t believe anyone’s hearing me.

Awaz Sharief: That’s right. [00:18:40] But then. But then when you prayed out, was it answered like, did you [00:18:45] find relief after it?

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know.

Awaz Sharief: Well, I mean, look at you now, [00:18:50] so obviously.

Payman Langroudi: No, but I’m just saying. Well, it’s an interesting thing, but I guess it’s [00:18:55] down to the way you were brought up. Right. In the end. Yeah. Yeah. You just end up. I wasn’t brought up to. To believe in God. [00:19:00] That you were. And there it is. But what I’m saying is, it’s interesting that, like, when [00:19:05] a good thing happens. Sure. You. You’d say. Of course. Yeah. You know, I believe I asked I [00:19:10] got, but when, if you ask you didn’t get. And then it’s interesting, I’ve asked other [00:19:15] religious people this question and you know like terrible things kid died their their child [00:19:20] died. Yeah. Didn’t that make you question your faith? No. Made it stronger. And I find that weird. [00:19:25] Yeah. Weirdness in.

Awaz Sharief: It. It is. Because then. Because, like. Because every single, I would say every [00:19:30] single trial that I’ve been through. You find out later on that actually there was a big you [00:19:35] know, there’s a big benefit to that. So now that when I do go through trials, then I know from my past [00:19:40] experience, like, I know, I know there’s going to be something bigger on the other side of it. And [00:19:45] actually every single time I found that that’s.

Payman Langroudi: A brilliant podcast called How to Fail. Yeah, it’s all about [00:19:50] that. Yeah. They come in and talking about their three biggest failures in their life. Yeah. And then what? [00:19:55] What it got them.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah. Yeah. No, no. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re you’re Iraqi [00:20:00] Kurdish. I am, yeah. Were you born here or did you.

Awaz Sharief: I was actually born in Iraq. Um, but [00:20:05] my family came to the UK, I think I was about two years old, so I don’t I don’t really remember Iraq [00:20:10] when I was a baby, but I’ve been a couple of times since.

Payman Langroudi: And your. [00:20:15] Was it due to the war or not? It was just immigration.

Awaz Sharief: It was. There was the Kuwaiti war [00:20:20] at the time. The first.

Payman Langroudi: Iraq War?

Awaz Sharief: Yeah. Yeah. So that’s why they came to, um.

Payman Langroudi: But you were too young to even remember [00:20:25] arriving here. Or do you remember?

Awaz Sharief: I don’t remember, no, I don’t. My first memories, because I lost [00:20:30] my dad as well when I was quite young and, um, um, and he actually [00:20:35] died from lung cancer because he was a very heavy smoker. Um, and I don’t remember him at [00:20:40] all. And I think, I think my mum said I was about a little over two. Um, [00:20:45] so I don’t I don’t remember him at all, but I do, I do remember when I was like three years old. [00:20:50] Um, but I don’t remember anything before that. I don’t remember him. I don’t remember Iraq. [00:20:55] I just remember, you know, my first memories is me being in this country with my mum and my brother, and [00:21:00] that’s it.

Payman Langroudi: And what did your mum do then? Like it.

Awaz Sharief: Was. [00:21:05] So. Do you know what it was? So she’s like my biggest inspiration. So, um, you know, it was really hard for her. [00:21:10] So, um, she didn’t have any family here, so she came. It was really hard. She was a single mum, [00:21:15] and she refused to get married again. She was like, I want to. I want to spend, you know, um, raising [00:21:20] my two kids. So it’s just me and my brother, and we’ve got, like, a year and a half age gap between us. I’m the eldest one. [00:21:25] Um, and then. So she was on benefits for the longest time, and she wanted to make us have the best education. [00:21:30] And, you know, I just commend her. And I look at her because she was the one who believed in me, and she was [00:21:35] the one who always, you know, wanted me to be better and better and better at everything I did. [00:21:40] And my success goes down to her. So, you know, I’m a dentist now and my brother is a lawyer, and, you know, we’re helping [00:21:45] her and, you know, she’s she’s in a much better place. So. But we will never forget.

Payman Langroudi: What she did. [00:21:50] What did she end up doing?

Awaz Sharief: So she was actually, um, she had like, a side business where she was just doing tailoring, [00:21:55] like, she was just tailoring clothes. That was the only thing that she knew how to do. She didn’t even have any qualifications. [00:22:00] Um, but, yeah, she would be teaching us, you know, like, we, you know, she we used to go to Arabic school as well [00:22:05] because she wanted us to learn Arabic. She’d be teaching us in both, like she was the one who taught me maths, you know, basic skills. And [00:22:10] she would teach us. And, you know, she was a great teacher. And I think she really instilled within me the, you [00:22:15] know, the desire and the passion to want to teach as well. Um, so she was like juggling, [00:22:20] you know, trying, doing her side business, like she was like self-employed, like she was just she’d she’d get [00:22:25] clients coming in to her. She was working from home, you know. She was trying to be a mum, cooking, cleaning, being [00:22:30] there for us. And she’s amazing, you know? Um, and, you know, she’s she’s [00:22:35] really proud of me and my brother, and we were so proud of her as a mum.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:22:40] haven’t got kids, have you?

Awaz Sharief: I do, I’ve got a little boy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Awaz Sharief: You do? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I get. I [00:22:45] get this quite a lot with, uh, women dentists who are working really hard or, [00:22:50] you know, like, now you’re doing teaching and, yeah, let’s say throwing a practice. Let’s say you’re in a practice [00:22:55] in there as well. I’ve had people, you know, lady dentists owns 20 practices. Yeah. Whoa. [00:23:00] With three young children. Yeah. All done through her kitchen table. Yeah. And [00:23:05] quite a lot of guilt. And I get it. I mean, children are all about guilt. Yeah. Yeah. [00:23:10] Um, but the question of, you know, what I think about that is [00:23:15] when that child sitting in that kitchen watching his mum setting [00:23:20] up an empire. Yeah. 20 practice empire. Yeah. When he [00:23:25] grows up, he will see that as work ethic.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: As as [00:23:30] tactics. As, you know, working smart. Not, you know, like so many different things that the kid [00:23:35] will learn by just watching. By osmosis. Yeah, exactly. In the same way as you might have learned [00:23:40] how to chop onions, because you were in the same kitchen as your mom when she was doing, she wasn’t [00:23:45] saying, hey, this is how you chop, chop an onion. Yeah, yeah. You were just in the same room. Yeah. So you saw [00:23:50] that that onion being chopped in that same way. Kids do learn from their [00:23:55] parents work. Yeah. You know, um, so it’s nice [00:24:00] to see a mother who’s doing all of this. How old’s your son? He’s three.

Awaz Sharief: I actually took him along with me. [00:24:05] And the last conference that I was at, which is the in Bristol. He sat through my whole lecture, [00:24:10] and at the end of it, he was like, well done, mum. Good job with the thumbs up. And I just it just made my heart melt. [00:24:15] So I mean because he’s understanding things now. And I told him we’re going to this conference and he was [00:24:20] seeing everything and I’d love for him to be a dentist. Personally, I think dentistry is a great career. I would never push him. But [00:24:25] you know, just this morning on the train, he was like, see me mom, say I’m a dentist. But [00:24:30] yeah, yeah, we’ll see what kind of career path he wants to go down.

Payman Langroudi: But you’re not with [00:24:35] his dad anymore?

Awaz Sharief: No, no. So, um. Yeah. So I’ve [00:24:40] become a single mom now. Um. So. Yeah. Um. Yeah. [00:24:45]

Payman Langroudi: Do you want to talk about that story or not?

Awaz Sharief: Um. Let’s see. [00:24:50] And I don’t really know how to introduce it. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you [00:24:55] were married and then. And then and then it started going wrong. Right? [00:25:00]

Awaz Sharief: Yeah. Let’s talk about that. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: What was the character of it going wrong? What was how [00:25:05] what was it like?

Awaz Sharief: Yeah. Okay. So yeah. So I was married and, um, [00:25:10] I was married for about eight years, and, um, I just became very unhappy. [00:25:15] Um, and then I managed to finally leave. Um, obviously, [00:25:20] having a son played a big role in deciding, um, what decision I wanted [00:25:25] to make, but in the end, I wanted my son to to be in a healthy household. [00:25:30] I wanted him, I didn’t want him to see an unhealthy dynamic and think that that was [00:25:35] that that was okay, because either he will replicate that or he will accept tolerate [00:25:40] it, I guess. Um, so, um, yeah. So I decided to, [00:25:45] to end things. Um, it wasn’t it wasn’t easy. Um, it did get messy, but, [00:25:50] you know, thank God we’re like, in a in a stable place right now. But what I will [00:25:55] say is that going through all of that, it was one of the hardest things I ever had to go through because, [00:26:00] um, there was I’d spent so long suppressing my emotions and how I really [00:26:05] felt. And when you go through a divorce, I don’t wish it upon anyone. But when you go through a divorce, [00:26:10] it’s your emotions come through. Like every day is like an emotional battle. [00:26:15] Every day you’re having to sit through so many different emotions and I’ve never had to do that before. [00:26:20] I’ve never had to sit through so many emotions, like one day you wake up and you’re feeling hopeful, and the next [00:26:25] day you’re grieving, and the day after that you’re angry. And you know, it can be several emotions at once. [00:26:30] And there was a time where I literally woke up. I would wake up and my mom was staying with [00:26:35] me for for some time, just whilst I was finding my two feet, and I’d wake up crying, telling [00:26:40] my mum I don’t want to go to work today and thank God I never actually went through with it.

Awaz Sharief: I always went [00:26:45] to work and I always felt better going to work, but it was one of the hardest things I ever had to go through, and I had to get professional [00:26:50] help because I was like, this is really slowing me down. And and then I was I was juggling obviously being [00:26:55] a single mom with my son. I had to be, you know, I had to be present with him. So I was like, I need to get [00:27:00] I need to get extra support. I need to get professional help so I can go through this. And it actually was the best [00:27:05] thing ever. Because through being really honest with myself about these emotions, I was able [00:27:10] to learn so many lessons and I was able to rediscover myself. So you just kind of get these, those, these [00:27:15] emotions that are coming to the surface of what you’ve been suppressing for so long. And every single one of your [00:27:20] emotions, they’re trying to tell you something. And I think, you know, sometimes you grow up feeling like emotions are bad. [00:27:25] Emotions are getting in your way. Actually, your emotions are there to help you and you just need to welcome [00:27:30] it, acknowledge it and ask, what is this emotion trying to tell me? There’s a lesson in every single one of [00:27:35] those emotions. Those emotions aren’t going to go until you actually address it. So this was the first [00:27:40] time I was able to address things that hadn’t in years, and I was able to actually get to the core of why you think.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:27:45] were suppressing emotions, like, give me an example of that.

Awaz Sharief: So, um, suppressing [00:27:50] emotions, like, for example, anger is wrong. You know, um, I think it was it was always [00:27:55] like, um, I thought I just grew up feeling like being angry was wrong.

Payman Langroudi: Or [00:28:00] a lot of women, a lot of women are taught.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah, yeah. Like it’s kind of more of like a or for.

Payman Langroudi: A man, being [00:28:05] sad is wrong.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah. Or crying or. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, but actually there’s, there’s a [00:28:10] lot of lessons to be learned in anger. Some anger is an indication of injustice. And when you [00:28:15] don’t confront that, that injustice will go on for longer. So it was the first time I was able to [00:28:20] welcome it and accept that this anger is an emotion that’s trying to tell me something. And had I listened [00:28:25] to it, maybe earlier on down the line, I probably wouldn’t have gone ahead with the marriage.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:28:30] read a book. I mean, here comes the amateur psychologist, right? Yeah. I read a book and it was [00:28:35] saying suppressed anger is the cause of long term depression in [00:28:40] women.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: One of the major causes. Yeah. There’s 100 causes, but but, you know, [00:28:45] like, you know, as the older you get, the more likely you are to get depressed as well. So [00:28:50] it could be that in your 60s you’d hit a major depression. Yeah. [00:28:55] Because you’d suppressed. Suppressed anger. Yeah. All that time?

Awaz Sharief: Yeah, yeah. [00:29:00]

Payman Langroudi: It’s a crazy idea. Yeah.

Awaz Sharief: And the thing is, once you suppress. Because the thing is, in order for you [00:29:05] to enjoy all the emotions, the happiness, the joy, and you have to be able to express all [00:29:10] of those emotions. So by suppressing one, you’re suppressing all the others. So even things like having my ambitions, my dreams, [00:29:15] my hopes, what I really wanted, I even suppressed those parts. And so once I was able to just [00:29:20] fully feel everything and tap into, well, what does my heart want? How do I want to live my life? What do [00:29:25] I really want? So that’s when the passion for endo came through. And I want to be a speaker, [00:29:30] and I want to be a young dentist of the year, and I want to teach dental students.

Payman Langroudi: Never that person before. [00:29:35]

Awaz Sharief: I think it was there. I never really believed in it. You know, it was. And that gave me the [00:29:40] courage to be like, no, why not me? Like, why can’t I be young dentist of the year? Why can’t I speak even though, [00:29:45] like I never spoken anywhere, but I’m like, I have a passion and I know this will benefit people. And actually I got so many [00:29:50] people coming to me. This one lady, she was like, do you know what? That was so amazing. After I did my talk in one of my conferences, [00:29:55] she was like, you know, it’s making me so emotional. Like, I, we need more dentists like you with this [00:30:00] passion that you have. And and I’m like, I’m so glad I went ahead with it and believed in myself because the [00:30:05] old me would have been like, oh, who am I to to speak at a conference? Like I’m not even a specialist, you know? [00:30:10] Um, so, so much good came out of it. And then I was like, I struggled as a dental student, you know, I told you [00:30:15] I resat the year and because of my clinical side. And then it just clicked for me and I was like, you [00:30:20] know, unfortunately back, you know, nine, ten years ago when I was a dental student, I didn’t feel like I got a lot of [00:30:25] support from the tutors. It was very much like they wanted to mark you down. They were trying to find something that [00:30:30] you were doing wrong. And so that that sparked a passion within me. I want to teach now. I [00:30:35] want to be that mentor or that coach or that tutor that I never got.

Awaz Sharief: So [00:30:40] then I was like, I want to teach dental, you know, foundation dentists. So I’m actually teaching them, um, [00:30:45] on their endodontics on their study days. I recently got a job teaching dental [00:30:50] students at Manchester Dental Hospital. So all of that sparked from they were all there, [00:30:55] by the way, I always had this passion, but by going through this, it was like it came up to the surface. [00:31:00] And because I was able to fully feel it, like, yeah, I really want this. And when you fully feel something, [00:31:05] you know, the law of manifestation, when you can really feel it and feel like it’s yours, I’m like, yeah, [00:31:10] I’m just going to go after it. So I was emailing and chasing and calling and doing whatever I needed to do to actually [00:31:15] make it a reality. So actually accelerated all the dreams that I already had. And some of them I had actually suppressed, [00:31:20] all because of the Break-Up that I had. Um, and that’s what really inspired [00:31:25] me to want to share my story, because, I mean, I know, like, as dentists, we’re not we’re not immune to divorce [00:31:30] and we’re not immune to, like, relationship issues. And maybe it’s not something we really do talk about, but it doesn’t [00:31:35] have to be, you know, going back to faith. Like, it doesn’t have to be the worst thing in the world. And actually, for me, it was [00:31:40] a major breakthrough. And I’m seeing a side and a version of me that’s so much better than [00:31:45] who I was before I actually got into that relationship.

Payman Langroudi: Was there an element of, I mean, as [00:31:50] a woman firstly, but as a middle eastern woman of of like you felt like a failure.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah, [00:31:55] it.

Payman Langroudi: Must be right.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah I did.

Payman Langroudi: That’s an understandable emotion for.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah. And [00:32:00] that’s it’s exactly why I stayed longer than I should have because I noticed it. Yeah, [00:32:05] I noticed it very early on, but then I was like, oh, what are people gonna think? Like, I just got married. I just [00:32:10] had my wedding. Um, and then. And then for me, I’m always a hard worker, and I’m like, I’m not bailing. Like, [00:32:15] I’m going to give this every last drop that I can, which is.

Payman Langroudi: Just which is what a marriage is, right? Yeah. At [00:32:20] the end of the day, you’re saying that, aren’t you saying exactly.

Awaz Sharief: When you’re making.

Payman Langroudi: That commitment? Yeah. Yeah. So [00:32:25] I understand you work at it, right? The classic work at it thing. Yeah. So do you remember a defining [00:32:30] moment? Like a moment when you said, no, I’m going to get divorced. Yeah.

Awaz Sharief: I [00:32:35] tried to leave several times, by the way. Oh, I did. And I think our families, like my family and his [00:32:40] family, really wanted to make it work. And I think that’s what kept us together for as long as we did. Um, and, [00:32:45] you know, they they were really sad, you know, really disheartened that it didn’t work out. But for me, I tried [00:32:50] to leave several times. Um, and then it was like, okay, let’s try this, let’s try that. Let’s do counselling. [00:32:55] We even did counselling. We did. We tried everything. So I can say, hand on heart, I gave it my all. [00:33:00] He tried really, you know, really hard as well. And it’s just it’s just one of those things. But I just remember at one point [00:33:05] my body just shut down and I was like, I can’t do this anymore. Don’t go anywhere near me. I [00:33:10] don’t trust you anymore. Like, it was just that for me was the cue that I had physical symptoms. [00:33:15]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah. It was just, like, completely shut down. I can’t do this anymore. I just [00:33:20] yeah. And that was it. And then I remember my mom being really gutted because she was like, oh, but you have a son. [00:33:25] And I’m like, mom, I really I can’t even look him in the face anymore. Like, it just literally reached that point. [00:33:30] She was like, maybe it’s just a phase. And I thought, okay, let me wait it out. I waited a couple of months. Nothing changed. In [00:33:35] fact, if anything, it became stronger. Um, and that’s when I knew. Yeah. It’s not it’s not going to happen. [00:33:40]

Payman Langroudi: And you said there was an element of sort of narcissism in it.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah. [00:33:45]

Payman Langroudi: What does that mean?

Awaz Sharief: So narcissism is a personality disorder [00:33:50] basically. Um, and it, it describes, um, some people who basically [00:33:55] lack empathy. Um, and there’s a lot of different elements to it. But essentially [00:34:00] what it is is that, um, I actually feel really sorry for, for narcissists because, [00:34:05] you know, they are at the core. They’re very insecure. And they [00:34:10] are they kind of hate themselves and they don’t really want to [00:34:15] admit to themselves. You know how much self-loathing I guess they have. So they create [00:34:20] this wall around themselves where even they are not honest with themselves [00:34:25] about who they are. And so they project this image of who they want to be. And [00:34:30] by the way.

Payman Langroudi: We were all probably doing some of that.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah, of course.

Payman Langroudi: This is just an increased version [00:34:35] of what we’re all doing.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah, yeah. No, of course, of course. Um, so [00:34:40] I think.

Payman Langroudi: So, but but then day to day, what does it mean to live with.

Awaz Sharief: So it’s kind of like [00:34:45] it’s almost living with someone who’s almost got like, a double life where they’re [00:34:50] with, with their with their friends and with their family. They’re a certain way. And with you, [00:34:55] they’re completely different. Um, and if you don’t know about this stuff, you’ll be [00:35:00] like, oh, but, like, they’re so nice to other people. Like, maybe it’s just me. Like, maybe if I just did this or I [00:35:05] just did that and, um, then then, you know, you kind of blame yourself and think, well, [00:35:10] there seems to be really nice to everyone else. Um, and the thing is, they keep changing the goalposts. [00:35:15] So it’s like, yeah, you know, I don’t like your cooking or I don’t like how you talk or I don’t like how you do this, [00:35:20] and you change those things.

Payman Langroudi: And the gaslighting thing.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah, yeah. You change those things and then [00:35:25] something else just keeps coming up. And then you realise at one point, wait, it’s not me. Like [00:35:30] I’m doing everything I can and nothing I do is actually good enough. And it’s just like, you know, the criticisms, [00:35:35] the putdowns, feeling like belittled, feeling like nothing that you do is enough. Um, [00:35:40] and, you know, in some aspects I’m grateful because it actually [00:35:45] made me want to be the best version of myself. Like, I never knew how to cook before I got married. [00:35:50] Um, and then, like, now, I love cooking, I love baking, and I know if I’d have been with someone who wasn’t, you know, too [00:35:55] fussed about it. I probably would never have gone down that route. So, um, you know, I’m grateful for a lot of [00:36:00] the skills that it gave me, but it just reached a point where I was like, yeah, this is just taking the mick. Like, I’m doing everything and nothing I’m [00:36:05] doing is actually enough.

Payman Langroudi: So I think it’s a credit to you and to your kids. [00:36:10] Dad though, that that even with all of that, you kept it in [00:36:15] a sort of civilised sort of way, insomuch as the relationship between your child and your child’s [00:36:20] dad is still good, right?

Awaz Sharief: Yeah, it’s very good. Yeah, that’s a really important thing.

Payman Langroudi: A really important thing, because. [00:36:25]

Awaz Sharief: He’s a great dad. He’s a great dad, and, you know, his son loves him so.

Payman Langroudi: And your son’s [00:36:30] also thriving. Yeah. He is. Yeah. Which is important. But often in these situations, the [00:36:35] parents, you know, obviously it’s a difficult situation. But parents don’t look out for their kid enough. [00:36:40] You know, the fight between the parents is so bad that the kid suffers. And [00:36:45] in your situation, it hasn’t happened as much. I mean, you know, it’s never going to be clean. Clean, right? But [00:36:50] yeah, it’s a.

Awaz Sharief: Civilised, you know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a credit to you and the families, I guess.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah. [00:36:55] Yeah, yeah. No. Of course. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: All right. Let’s talk about now as [00:37:00] far as Dental and what you’re going to do with this information here, [00:37:05] because the information is out there. But but you’re popularising this form of [00:37:10] endo. Yeah. So tell me about when you first lectured on it and how you felt and where [00:37:15] it was. And.

Awaz Sharief: You know, it was actually at the British Dental Conference. Um, and dentistry [00:37:20] in Birmingham.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the hardest, hardest place to lecture because there’s all that noise. Yeah. They give you [00:37:25] a little plasma screen.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah. Have you lectured before? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But to do your first lecture [00:37:30] there. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I just want to tell you that that is that is not what lecturing is about. Yeah. That that’s [00:37:35] the hardest, hardest, hardest. Yeah.

Awaz Sharief: I really enjoyed, actually. But you know what? Like, the story [00:37:40] is, I was doing this research, like I told you, and I was like, I need to get this word out there. And I just had this vision. I’m going [00:37:45] to be speaking at the British Dental Conference. So I called and I emailed and [00:37:50] they were like, okay, yeah, you can talk, but you need to find a sponsor. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what I was saying about is there a company [00:37:55] behind?

Awaz Sharief: Yeah, yeah. You need to. And then I’m like, where am I going to find a sponsor? And they’re like, well, you’re just gonna have to find someone.

Payman Langroudi: Right? [00:38:00]

Awaz Sharief: So. So I contacted Leptodon and they were like, oh, they were quoting, you [00:38:05] know, the conference. They were like, oh, it’s going to just for that, I think 45 minute session. They [00:38:10] were quoting like 2 or 3 grand and Septuagint is like, no, we’re not going to sponsor that. Like we don’t even know who [00:38:15] you are. Yeah. Like you don’t you’ve not even built your credibility. And I just thought, right okay. And then I tried [00:38:20] the European. No. What was it? The British endodontic society. But they’d already given their slots [00:38:25] to someone else. And then I tried to get in contact. I think dental directory were doing one as well. And [00:38:30] my dentist was doing one. But they’re all giving their slots away. So I’m like, oh my gosh, what am I going to do? And then, um, [00:38:35] the lady on the phone that I kept calling, she saw how passionate I was. And you know what she said to me? She [00:38:40] said, do you know what? Call us. Like like message us or contact us. A month before, [00:38:45] because sometimes some people drop out. Sometimes we have, um, empty slots. And if no one else takes them, we’ll [00:38:50] just give them to you. Like, we can see how passionate you are. So that’s what I did a month before. I’m like, you know, have you got any empty slots? [00:38:55] And then. So that’s when they gave me my first session, so I didn’t even have to have a sponsor. So then I went there [00:39:00] and I got such good feedback. I got so many people telling me, oh my gosh, this is amazing. Getting my email [00:39:05] address. Can you send me the lecture slides? I had people asking me if I was doing a course on this, and [00:39:10] I just laughed it off and I was like, me, of course, like I’m still trying to figure everything out myself.

Awaz Sharief: But then I [00:39:15] actually spoke at the British Dental Conference this year as well, and I also got a lot [00:39:20] of people asking me the same thing. And then I got so many delegates coming up to me and they’re saying, like, you know, you really should do a course, [00:39:25] that I actually started to take it more seriously. So then I went and I [00:39:30] contacted the Max course team, which is like the deanery. They they organise their own [00:39:35] um, courses. Um, and they gave me a slot. So I’m actually going to be doing [00:39:40] a course on the 2nd of December, which, um, you know, I’m, I’m really excited for because [00:39:45] it’s going to be hands on. So the first session is going to be like, um, the theory. So we’re going to talk about vital pulp [00:39:50] therapy. We’re going to talk about when do you do a pulpotomy when you don’t when do you just do. Because vital [00:39:55] pulp therapy is about managing deeply carious teeth as well. It’s all about maintaining the vitality of the [00:40:00] pulp. And then in the afternoon, we’re going to be doing a pulpotomy on an anterior tooth, a premolar [00:40:05] and a molar. So, um, yeah, I’m really excited for that. I never, ever thought that it would lead to [00:40:10] this. Like, I just had a vision and my heart was like, spoke. And I just listened to it and I was like, okay, I need [00:40:15] to do this. And I never thought it would lead to this. So I’m so happy.

Payman Langroudi: It’s such an important topic though. [00:40:20]

Awaz Sharief: Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of people were fascinated just the same way that I was, and they were like, yeah, what bird [00:40:25] did you use? And what about this? And they were giving me, you know, clinical scenarios. And that’s why.

Payman Langroudi: You know, [00:40:30] like, I’m not a dentist anymore. Yeah. The two things that about dentistry that give [00:40:35] me PTSD now are, number one, the situation you described. Yeah. [00:40:40] Because there’s no way around that situation. Yeah. Deep filling right. Deep filling.

Awaz Sharief: No. Damned if you do, damned if [00:40:45] you don’t.

Payman Langroudi: No pain. And it’s the risk of causing pain and okay, the only way around it is to warn the patient of [00:40:50] the risk of causing it, but it’s. Yeah, it’s really not a nice, nice thing to happen. Exactly. And the other one is, [00:40:55] you know, when a patient just says, I don’t like the way they look. Yeah. Yeah. It’s like [00:41:00] there’s there’s no way of arguing it. I mean, of course you can temporise and you can make them look [00:41:05] exactly the same. You can get patients to sign off. But in the end, whatever the cosmetic [00:41:10] treatment was, if the patient just says, don’t like them. Yeah. There’s really nowhere to go. [00:41:15] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Apart from replacing them or changing them? Oh, I’ve had that.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, it’s [00:41:20] a cosmetic dentist. Sort of happens. It happens. It happens a lot where it happens a lot [00:41:25] to cosmetic dentists. They do the work. Patient loves it. Goes home. Family member. [00:41:30] Yeah. Makes a comment. You know. You know what it is about love. All sorts of love. Like [00:41:35] one of the big aspects of love. People define it as loving people’s weaknesses rather [00:41:40] than their strengths. You know, like from from the movies. It feels like, oh, you know, the girl’s pretty. She’s [00:41:45] kind, she’s cool. Whatever the. Yeah. But actually, like, if, if your [00:41:50] if your uncle has got spaces between his teeth, That is what. That is who you love. [00:41:55] The guy with the spaces between his teeth. Yeah. Once he fixes it. You don’t think of that [00:42:00] as your uncle anymore?

Awaz Sharief: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. And so it’s not. It’s not like a malicious thing. [00:42:05] It’s part of the human condition of the family. So what a lot of cosmetics dentists do is actually warn the patient [00:42:10] that that’s going to happen. Right. Okay. Yeah, it’s. [00:42:15] Unfortunately, I feel like the lawyers have won in the industry. You know, that’s the thing. All [00:42:20] right, so in the meantime, you’re practising in my dentist.

Awaz Sharief: Yes, [00:42:25] yes.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re getting internal referrals for endo. Yes. So you’re doing endo [00:42:30] all day or are you doing.

Awaz Sharief: No I do, I do general dentistry. But then I get referrals for endo as well. I actually [00:42:35] do like I do composite bonding and I love anything to do with like minimally invasive. I love, you know, saving [00:42:40] teeth is my thing. So even when it comes to, um, minimally, minimally invasive [00:42:45] dentistry. So like, um, aligning, bleaching, bonding, you know, I like that, all of that as well. I do [00:42:50] that not a lot, but I do like to dabble into it because it’s all about you get to preserve the tooth for as much [00:42:55] as you know as much as possible. So I love doing that stuff.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me, clinically in a day, what’s a typical day? Is [00:43:00] there an endo every day or is there not.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah. So there’s at least or at least a consult [00:43:05] or something. Um, or.

Payman Langroudi: A retreat every week. Is there a retreat every week?

Awaz Sharief: No, [00:43:10] to be honest, especially with internal referrals, I find that in the practice I’m working with my dentist, I do get [00:43:15] retreats, but not not as often. It’s it’s mainly just they don’t like doing the endo, so they just send it over to me. They [00:43:20] send the.

Payman Langroudi: Retreat to to the Endodontist.

Awaz Sharief: No, they do send retreats as well. Um, I [00:43:25] just find that there’s a lot of them. I do get a lot of referrals for just the, you know, just the regular endos. Yeah. [00:43:30]

Payman Langroudi: That’s nice. Yeah. So then in a typical day, you’ve got, let’s just say one endo and then [00:43:35] just like any other dentist, few exams and then an aligning that sort of thing. Is that [00:43:40] your typical. Yeah. Yeah.

Awaz Sharief: Clinical day. Yeah. Yeah. So you know extraction you know odd extraction. Odd um filling. You know, [00:43:45] like composite bonding whatever. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And is the, is the referral internal to the building or do [00:43:50] they send from other my dentists?

Awaz Sharief: They send from other nearby my dentist practices as well. Yeah, [00:43:55] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you could even increase that, right? If you tell them, look, I’m up for way more. Yeah.

Awaz Sharief: So the [00:44:00] thing is a lot of people are doing endo now, so, um, we do. I’ve, I’ve done like lunch and learns [00:44:05] and, like, nearby practices and, um, because I just find that when you go into the practice and they see you and you’re able [00:44:10] to connect with them, they’re much more likely to refer into you. So, um, but then you’ve got like, other practices [00:44:15] where they’ve got someone who’s doing endo. And so when I asked if I can go and they’re like, oh, [00:44:20] well, we already have someone who’s doing endo within the practice. So, um, yeah, I try to, you know, try [00:44:25] to just get my name out there on social media as well. Um, and, you know, at the conferences. [00:44:30]

Payman Langroudi: So, so look, with enlightened, we do a lot of work with my dentist here. And I went [00:44:35] into it thinking one thing and came out of it thinking something totally different. The dentists are actually [00:44:40] much more happy than I would have imagined in in my dentist.

Awaz Sharief: What did [00:44:45] you think? That they were unhappy as a corporate?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Awaz Sharief: I’m really happy with them. I’ve been with them since I qualified [00:44:50] and they’ve kept me happy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And yeah, I mean, one thing is I think they’ve changed. Yeah, [00:44:55] but ten years ago they didn’t understand. The most important thing is to keep the dentist happy.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah, [00:45:00] but they understand that now.

Payman Langroudi: Losing a dentist is the most expensive thing that can happen to you. Exactly right. [00:45:05] Yeah, but they’re really on to it now. And I went in thinking, Morale’s going to be really low or [00:45:10] there’s going to be, I don’t know, people doing their first ever job in the UK or something where they have to be [00:45:15] there and then they’re going to leave straight away. But, you know, you come across a lot of people who’ve liked their whole [00:45:20] careers been at my dentist. Yeah. And and the one someone told me and I never [00:45:25] this never used to happen back in my day where someone would choose to leave an [00:45:30] independent practice and go to a corporate. Yeah, yeah. That would never happen, that no one would do it by choice. [00:45:35] Right back in the day. Back in the day? Yeah, someone told me. And someone like I know her well because she [00:45:40] does a lot of enlightened and all that. And she was saying, yeah, um, I’m going to my dentist [00:45:45] because I know what I’m going to get there. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s a really interesting point. Like it’s like it’s like, [00:45:50] you know, you go to a McDonald’s, you know what you’re going to get or a Starbucks, you know what you’re going to get. Yeah. [00:45:55] Yeah. Whereas if you go to an independent practice you can’t be sure. Yeah. Yeah. And however [00:46:00] much you research, you never know what a practice is like until you’re actually in it.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah. I’ve never actually [00:46:05] worked with an independent practice. I’ve just found I just found the corporates have just really looked after me, you know. [00:46:10] And I remember very early on in my career, like, I bargained for quite a high UDA rate. And that’s, that’s how [00:46:15] they kept me in, to be honest. And my dentists were very accommodating. And I think they realised that actually if we [00:46:20] keep the dentist, then that is going to be the most profitable for them as a business.

Payman Langroudi: Definitely, definitely. [00:46:25] And it is. It’s an important way of running your practice anyway. Yeah. As a as a principle. [00:46:30] Yeah. The best thing would be really just to think of your customer as your associate. Yeah. [00:46:35] You know, it’s one of the ways of running a practice. Yeah. So. All right. Um, what [00:46:40] are your plans going forward? Do you think you’re going to open your own one day, or do you know what? [00:46:45]

Awaz Sharief: I don’t think I’ll ever will. Really? Yeah. It’s just. It’s just not my thing. Like just the stress. Like, I think [00:46:50] I love the idea of doing my own practice and, like, interior design. And I had this vision [00:46:55] once because I know, like, patients hate endo, but I was like, I’d have this practice and they [00:47:00] could have like a foot massage whilst they’re having their endo done. Yeah. And so I had this vision and then I just [00:47:05] thought, like, there’s just so much to it that I don’t know, I just, I feel like I’m liking the [00:47:10] education side of dentistry a bit more, you know, like speaking and, you know, doing the doing courses. [00:47:15] Hopefully, you know, more courses in the future. Like I’m leaning more towards that. And, [00:47:20] um, as well, because of my own experiences, I’m getting developing a side passion [00:47:25] for I’d love to be a trauma coach and help, like other women in particular, who’ve gone through narcissistic [00:47:30] abuse or just any kind of trauma. And just, just I want to motivate and inspire women [00:47:35] to live their best life. And, um, for, for them not to be held back because [00:47:40] I believe, you know, as humans, as human beings, we all have gifts.

Awaz Sharief: We all have talents. Everybody’s got unique [00:47:45] talents and gifts that they can give to the world, and it’s just a shame that so many people die and they don’t know what [00:47:50] their talent is, and they’ve not left their mark in the world. And so I’ve just just through my [00:47:55] experiences, I’m just like, I’d love to be a source of inspiration, motivation, like a site. This is like a side [00:48:00] thing that I’d want to do, like and just start off, you know, very small doing coaching, helping women in [00:48:05] particular women, just because I’m a woman and, you know, I’m I know, I know how hard it can be and I can really relate [00:48:10] to other women. And so that’s the kind of thing that I want to go towards. But actually the the [00:48:15] idea of me having my own practice is just I can’t really see it. Like if I’m looking ten, 20 [00:48:20] years, I can’t really see it. Yeah. More towards the education side of things and coaching [00:48:25] and teaching I guess.

Payman Langroudi: Why not? Why not? Yeah. Um, I had Jason Smithson on [00:48:30] here and he was saying running a practice and being an international. He’s an international [00:48:35] lecturer. Yeah. Running a practice and being an international lecturer is impossible. Yeah. Unless you’re [00:48:40] willing to give up your family life, have a divorce or something? Yeah, yeah. Which I don’t want to do. Yeah. Um, [00:48:45] and there’s a there’s a lot to be said for that. Like knowing. Knowing what your strength is. Yeah. Um, [00:48:50] I, Jaz Gulati, you know. You know him from Protrusive. No. Um, he’s [00:48:55] brilliant. And he’s got a podcast, and. And he was saying he never wants to have a practice. [00:49:00] Yeah. Because he wants to focus on his podcast. And he’s an associate. Good for.

Awaz Sharief: Him. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:49:05] I can think of others. I can think of others as well. So it’s not a bad way [00:49:10] to be. It’s not a bad way to be. Yeah.

Awaz Sharief: It’s just it’s just never really appealed to me. Like I said, I like the idea of it, but I’m [00:49:15] just like to put the time and I don’t know, like what? What would be the benefits?

Payman Langroudi: Cash. [00:49:20]

Awaz Sharief: Yeah. I mean, you mean as in, like, just passive income?

Payman Langroudi: Like, it’s not only cash though. The the [00:49:25] main reason people start their own practice is control.

Awaz Sharief: They can do things their way. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:49:30] And I’ve seen people in really brilliant situations who still go ahead and start their own [00:49:35] practice because of the control. They want a particular patient journey.

Awaz Sharief: Right, [00:49:40] right, right.

Payman Langroudi: And the only way to do that really is to have your own practice. Yeah, yeah. Um, [00:49:45] on this pod, we like to talk about mistakes. Yeah. So based on, you know, black [00:49:50] box thinking where the plane crashes and they want to find out what went [00:49:55] wrong rather than rather than who’s to blame when I say clinical mistakes, [00:50:00] what comes to mind? What what can you share with us? Something that someone else can learn from?

Awaz Sharief: Okay, so, [00:50:05] um, I think the biggest clinical mistake I’ve ever made, I was actually a dental student, and, [00:50:10] um, I was it was my first mos, um, [00:50:15] and I, I just remember, like, researching [00:50:20] so hard and planning so hard for it. And then, um, I was doing [00:50:25] like, we had, I had the x rays, and I had already planned out how I’m going to be [00:50:30] designing the flap and then, oh my gosh, it’s just giving me flashbacks now. So [00:50:35] then I was I had the scalpel and then I was trying to, um, to [00:50:40] outline the like on the actual patient outline, the, um, the flap. [00:50:45] And then I was with my with my tutor, and then I was pushing down and it wasn’t I think [00:50:50] I hit like a bony prominence. It was like a lower five. And then my tutor was like, no, harder. And [00:50:55] I pushed harder, and the patient’s lip actually ripped, and there was blood [00:51:00] everywhere. And I’m like, I’m a dental student. Oh my gosh. I burst into [00:51:05] tears. And then I just left the room. And then I just remember the patient jumping up in his chair, like [00:51:10] like you just don’t expect it. And there’s just blood everywhere. And I just burst into tears. I left [00:51:15] the room, thank God, and I was with it because I was with like a clinical partner. She’s the nicest girl. [00:51:20] She’s called rower. If you’re listening to this. Thank you. Rower. She was so supportive. She’s doing well. [00:51:25] Um, anyway. And she was so supportive. And then I was just crying, and I went to the other room. I was [00:51:30] crying, and she was like, no, it’s going to be okay. Don’t worry about it. Like it happens. You’re a student.

Payman Langroudi: Who stitched it [00:51:35] up.

Awaz Sharief: The the actual, um, the tutor who was a consultant, and then someone else came as well. I think [00:51:40] another consultant came up and and then, you know, and I remember them telling me, [00:51:45] you know, that the patient might sue. Um, and so I was expecting the worst. And then, [00:51:50] and then the consultant came up to me and said, how, you know, how how how how are you coping with everything? How’s everything [00:51:55] going? I’m obviously traumatised. And he said, you know, the patient, every time I come to see him, all he does is ask [00:52:00] about you. He wants to know whether you’re okay. And he didn’t really sue me or, you know, he didn’t do anything. He was just [00:52:05] concerned about me as a student. He felt sorry for me and she was like, don’t worry about it. We’ve stitched it up. You can’t even [00:52:10] hardly see anything. Like it always looks worse. You know, when there’s so much blood everywhere, it always looks worse than it actually [00:52:15] is. And I’ve actually saw the patient after that. That was my biggest clinical mistake. I know now for a finger [00:52:20] rest, because that’s why obviously my my finger slipped. So yeah, even.

Payman Langroudi: As I [00:52:25] mean that was a good one. That’s that’s a juicy one. But I’m not gonna I’m not gonna allow it [00:52:30] because you were a student. It doesn’t really count.

Awaz Sharief: Okay. So you went under the clinical mistake. [00:52:35] Yeah. Okay. So. So this was a recent one. Oh, good. Um, [00:52:40] so I’m like, I’m just just, you know, I told you, I kind of do a bit of Invisalign. Yeah. This patient comes into me, [00:52:45] and she’s a severe class two, and she’s like to me. Yeah. Um, I want I [00:52:50] want straight teeth. And she comes in. She’s not. She’s never seen a dentist for. She’s not seen a dentist for a while. So [00:52:55] there’s a lot of, um, maintenance that we needed to do. So there’s a lot of caries, a lot of things that, you know, her gum [00:53:00] disease and everything. So I was like, okay, let’s stabilise everything. And then if everything’s stable, then we can consider cosmetic work. [00:53:05] So she actually actually did really well. She came back to me three months later. Everything was stable. And [00:53:10] then I gave her the options of the, um, she wanted Invisalign. And I said, look, you know, [00:53:15] um, because she was a severe class two. I said, you’re going to need extractions to to correct the crowding [00:53:20] and to improve your profile. But she was like, no, because her her workplace was actually down the road [00:53:25] from us. And she just wanted it was convenient for her to come to us. So she was like, please just do the best that you can do. [00:53:30]

Awaz Sharief: You know, anything would be better than what I’ve got. So I’m just like, naive. I took the case on, I wanted to help [00:53:35] and and then took the case on and the thing I’ve done Invisalign on my own teeth. [00:53:40] And the thing is what you would have been really happy with, you know, at the beginning of your journey, by [00:53:45] the time you get to the end, you’re just like, you get very picky. You become really picky. So I went through that [00:53:50] with my own teeth and I’m a dentist, so I kind of had that at the back of my mind. But her [00:53:55] teeth look massively different. You know, with the aligners we did, we did like I think 14 aligners. She knew [00:54:00] that I couldn’t correct the Overjet completely. We did have a reduction in the overjet and showed her the clincheck. [00:54:05] She was happy. Let’s go ahead. Whatever. And and then she comes to the end of it. She’s like, oh, my teeth are still protruding. [00:54:10] And I said, okay, we can do some additional aligners, but there’s only so much that we can do because I’ve already done quite a lot of IPR. [00:54:15] And so then I did, we did the additional aligners and I showed her the clincheck [00:54:20] and then she was a little bit more fussy this time she was like, no, I’m not happy.

Awaz Sharief: I want a full refund. And and [00:54:25] then at the time I was just like, um, I was like, no, I put a lot of time and, you know, I [00:54:30] made it so clear to her at the beginning, she just said, do your best and I did my best. And you [00:54:35] know you can change your mind, but that comes at a cost. Yeah. Um, but she wasn’t having any of it. [00:54:40] She was threatening legal advice and, you know, whatever. So then in the end, I was like, you know what? Just give her the whole the full [00:54:45] damn refund. Um, and I did. And, you know, she’s she’s happy about it now. But the [00:54:50] main thing that I, that I learned from that is to, you know, if you, if you have I think [00:54:55] sometimes it takes for you to go through these cases for you to realise what is outside of your remit and what isn’t, and [00:55:00] going through something like, you know, something that would have, should have been a specialist, you know, job to begin with. [00:55:05] And even if the patient, however much they try to convince you, you have to be the one to say no, this is out of my [00:55:10] remit. It’s in your best interest to go elsewhere. Yeah. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And I think, you know, [00:55:15] what happens with with experience. You start to feel it. Yeah.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s certain [00:55:20] it’s almost like a people, like a spider sense, you know, the way you look. Yeah.

Awaz Sharief: Like a gut feeling that you should [00:55:25] go ahead with this, I should.

Payman Langroudi: Something’s up here. Yeah. Um, you know, [00:55:30] like, you’ve got those classic situations of Patient walks in with 20 dentures. And you know that’s. But there’s. [00:55:35] There’s loads of levels of that. Yeah. Um, and even in my short career, [00:55:40] I remember a couple of situations where I feel like that was a close one. I’m glad I got out of that [00:55:45] one. Yeah. What do you do regarding childcare and all that? Does your mum look after your child?

Awaz Sharief: So my [00:55:50] son is actually at nursery now, so I actually work around his nursery times. I work ten till two. They’re amazing hours. [00:55:55]

Payman Langroudi: Are they cool with that?

Awaz Sharief: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Love that. Yeah.

Awaz Sharief: No. Amazing I love I really hope I never have to [00:56:00] change those hours. Um. So. Yeah, before my mum was. Was helping me a lot. But then [00:56:05] he started school in January, so I just work around his nursery times.

Payman Langroudi: So on [00:56:10] the subject of women and teaching this question [00:56:15] of why? Why aren’t more women teaching dentistry? Good [00:56:20] question. It’s come up a lot on this podcast. Yeah, yeah. And people will say [00:56:25] things, different things. Yeah. People will say, oh, men run the organisations And [00:56:30] he only asked their buddies to come lecture. Right. I think there’s an element of that, [00:56:35] you know. Fine. Yeah. But there’s other people say men [00:56:40] sort of put themselves up in a confidence way more [00:56:45] than women do.

Awaz Sharief: I agree.

Payman Langroudi: Do you agree with that?

Awaz Sharief: I agree with that. Because like I said, through my story, [00:56:50] you.

Payman Langroudi: Had similar story.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So so then when you say help women here. Yeah. [00:56:55] What would you say regarding that question for a woman? I mean, there’s there’s plenty of talented dentists, [00:57:00] women dentists out there right now. Yeah. And teaching. I mean, at the end of the day, there’s. [00:57:05] It’s not a magic thing, right? Teaching is about, you know, your view on [00:57:10] what’s out there. Yeah. So let’s say we’ve got someone who’s a really good, like, knows [00:57:15] what she’s doing. Would love to take a day off a month to teach. Yeah. But just doesn’t [00:57:20] think she has never been asked. Yeah. Yeah. You were asked. Yeah. Yeah.

Awaz Sharief: To be honest, I was [00:57:25] the proactive one. I think maybe women are just waiting for that opportunity.

Payman Langroudi: What advice are you going to give? What advice [00:57:30] do you give to women like that?

Awaz Sharief: So I would say that if you have I mean, it starts with a passion. [00:57:35] Like if you have a passion for something and you like something or you want to help or you know, whatever [00:57:40] it is, and don’t be afraid to be proactive and search for these opportunities yourself, because [00:57:45] that’s what I had to do. You know, I had a vision I wanted to teach and I went after it.

Payman Langroudi: What is it that’s holding you [00:57:50] back? Like, when is it like the confidence?

Awaz Sharief: It’s. You just feel like, you know, the older me would have [00:57:55] been like. Like, who are you? Like, what do you actually know? Like, you always feel like. Maybe there’s more that I need to learn [00:58:00] about this subject. I’m not an expert. I’m not a specialist. You know, maybe until I become a consultant or whatever, [00:58:05] then I can teach. And maybe that’s what women feel like. They have to reach that level before they can actually start teaching, [00:58:10] when actually it comes from a place of passion. And if you’re passionate about something, that passion shines [00:58:15] through. And if you feel like you have value to add a new you, you know that [00:58:20] this will be of benefit. I would say look at it from that place, rather than how higher [00:58:25] up are you in the hierarchy and how much experience you have under your belt. And, um, [00:58:30] you know what? What kind of status do you have? Um, it’s more about what value do you do you [00:58:35] believe that? Do you believe that? You can you can offer that kind of help, you know, because I think women can be more [00:58:40] sympathetic. You know, I’m just generalising. Yeah. You know, we tend to be, like, the more of the emotional ones, [00:58:45] more sympathetic, more caring, whatever. Um, and we need that kind of. We need teachers [00:58:50] like that. You know, we need, you know, mentors, coaches, whatever. Like, just going back to my own [00:58:55] experience, being a Dental student, I wish there was someone to hold my hand and say to me, you got this. [00:59:00] I know you can do this. And I hope that I could be that for someone, for someone [00:59:05] else who’s going through that same journey.

Awaz Sharief: And I could be the one to be like, look, I know you can do this because nobody really said [00:59:10] that to me. It was almost like waiting for me to fail so that they could mark me down. Like, that’s the kind of energy that I got. [00:59:15] Rather than, what can I do to help you? I wish somebody had said to me, I’ll go out of my [00:59:20] way. I’ll sacrifice my lunch. Maybe you need a 1 to 1, because I did a postgraduate certificate in medical education [00:59:25] and everyone has their own learning styles. Some people thrive with 1 to 1. Some people are [00:59:30] okay with group teaching. I know for me personally, I thrive with 1 to 1 and I realise that [00:59:35] later on. So I would love to be that person who would be proactive and see someone who’s struggling [00:59:40] as a dental student and be like, look, I can see that, you know, consistently on the clinic because I was like that. I was always [00:59:45] the last one on clinic. And do you need any help? You know, I’m here to help you. I can I can [00:59:50] do like a 1 to 1 session with you. Maybe that’s your kind of learning style. And I think maybe, maybe women [00:59:55] are more likely to do that. I don’t I don’t know, like, I know I would, um, so I would say [01:00:00] you as a woman, don’t just look at your credentials and don’t look at your experience, but just look at what [01:00:05] you could what other value that you could offer in the teaching sphere.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting [01:00:10] because let’s say when you when you come to start teaching, there’ll be 20 delegates [01:00:15] in the room. Yeah. And a couple of them will be slower.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah, [01:00:20] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Than the rest. It’s always, it’s always like that. There’s a, there’s a couple faster than everyone. Yeah, [01:00:25] of course there’s a couple slower than everyone. And then the general in the middle. Yeah. Yeah. And where you put your [01:00:30] attention actually is quite. It’s quite an important question. Right. Because sometimes you think we’re [01:00:35] the ones who are slower. They’ll never get it or something. And yeah, you’re right. They’re the ones who need more attention.

Awaz Sharief: Exactly. [01:00:40]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Should focus more on them. Yeah. It’s a very good point. I [01:00:45] mean, this this question of men and women and diversity in general. Yeah. [01:00:50] Diversity in general is a good idea in organisations. Yeah. And [01:00:55] whether the organisation is a teaching organisation or a Dental or a business organisation. If [01:01:00] everyone’s reacting the same to everything, then you’re not you’re not going to be able to move quickly enough to [01:01:05] to change. Yeah. Yeah. That’s that’s my feeling on it. All right. Well, let’s let’s get to our [01:01:10] final questions.

Awaz Sharief: Okay. Go ahead.

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy dinner party. Three [01:01:15] guests, dead or alive. Who would you have?

Awaz Sharief: Okay, [01:01:20] so the first one I would say would be, did [01:01:25] you say fancy fantasy?

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy?

Awaz Sharief: Fantasy. Dinner party.

Payman Langroudi: As in Dead or Alive. The guests can [01:01:30] be deadly.

Awaz Sharief: I see, I see. Dinner party. Okay, so, um, I would love to, um, [01:01:35] have a dinner party with my dad. Oh. Um. Yeah. Because, um, you know, like I said, [01:01:40] my mom did such a great job, and I just. I look at my mom, and I’m like. He did well, like, he chose. He chose a good [01:01:45] woman to look after his kids. And, you know, I just love to just catch up with him and be like, you know, look at me [01:01:50] now, you know, and and my brother and, you know, you, you chose well in, you know, choosing, [01:01:55] choosing our mom to look after us. Look how hard she worked. And, um, you know, just for him to be happy. [01:02:00] Because actually, when I became a dentist, my mom said, I believe in this stuff, by the way. Like, my mom said that she had a dream, that [01:02:05] she saw my dad in her dream, and and she was telling him, oh, like, do you [01:02:10] know, like, um, your daughter’s become a dentist. And he was so happy and he was smiling, you know? And so [01:02:15] I’d love to, because he was an engineer and, you know, he was he was hard working as well. So I think he would be so proud [01:02:20] of his kids and how far they’d come, so I’d just love to have a catch up and just let him know about how everything [01:02:25] is and how much I miss him. And and actually, when I was going through my divorce, um, [01:02:30] one of the again, one of one of the suppressed feelings that I had was that I actually miss my dad, [01:02:35] but I never gave myself the opportunity to feel that because I’m like, I don’t even remember him. But, [01:02:40] you know, just the feeling of, you know, like they used to say that I was like, daddy’s little girl. And, you know, just back in the day. And [01:02:45] I see, like, videos of how, like, you know, my dad would play around with me.

Payman Langroudi: Your dad knew you as long as you’ve [01:02:50] known your son.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: That’s important. Right? Yeah. My my uncle [01:02:55] passed away when his daughter. My cousin was three. Yeah. And, um. [01:03:00] It breaks my heart that my cousin doesn’t remember him because he loved [01:03:05] that girl. He loved that girl.

Awaz Sharief: That’s what people said about me and my dad.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. And [01:03:10] it. And she doesn’t remember. Right. She doesn’t. Neither do I. She was three, right? Yeah. [01:03:15] And just breaks my heart, you know, just that fact breaks my heart.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah. Yeah. And [01:03:20] it didn’t actually at the time made me really emotional because going through that divorce, you know, some it was, [01:03:25] you know, I was just going through like a mixture of emotions because I never felt like I had that fatherly figure, you know, like growing [01:03:30] up. So for me, like I go, you know, I go to his grave more often than I used to. And, and [01:03:35] because I never felt that connection before, and it’s because I never allowed myself to feel like I missed him. Because logically, you think, [01:03:40] how can I miss him when I don’t remember him? But I think, you know you, I don’t know, I guess it’s just the metaphysical [01:03:45] where you just emotionally, I feel emotionally connected to him. So I’d love to have that, [01:03:50] you know, that kind of chat with him. And just to catch up of how much I missed him and, you know. Yeah, [01:03:55] basically. So he’s he’s one person and the other person that I would [01:04:00] um, is I don’t know if this counts, but my son like 20 years down the line. Does [01:04:05] that count?

Payman Langroudi: I like that. I like that.

Awaz Sharief: I’d love to. I’d love to see, like, what career [01:04:10] path has he gone through and how has. Because I do you know you get mum guilt. I’m like does has [01:04:15] this divorce impacted him. How is it going to impact him? What kind of boy is he going to grow up to be? And obviously I [01:04:20] can only do my best, but I’d love to see what he’s like 20 years down the line and what kind of things he remembers, [01:04:25] because I love to create memories with him. But how much of it does he actually remember? I don’t know, so [01:04:30] I’d love to have that.

Payman Langroudi: That’s that’s a new one. I did have someone saying, oh, my 16 [01:04:35] year old self in as one of the guests, but, but but but that’s a new one. [01:04:40] Good good good. And the third.

Awaz Sharief: Guest and the final guest would be the Prophet [01:04:45] Muhammad. Um, yeah. Peace be upon him. So, Prophet Muhammad, he’s a very, um, [01:04:50] um, uh, you know, very important aspect of our of our of [01:04:55] our, um, religion. And I’ve heard so much about him. I’ve read so much about him. I’d love to [01:05:00] actually speak to him in person and just see, because there’s so much written work about how his [01:05:05] character was and how his, you know, behaviour was. I’d love to see that in action. I’d love to to [01:05:10] let him know how much he’s inspired and, and, you know, inspired so many Muslims as a result of him. [01:05:15] So I’d love to have, you know, just a just a catch up with him, I guess.

Payman Langroudi: My goodness, [01:05:20] you are aiming higher then.

Awaz Sharief: You’ve not had anyone say that yet I have.

Payman Langroudi: Actually I have. [01:05:25]

Awaz Sharief: You have you.

Payman Langroudi: Have. He’s he’s shown his face before. Okay. Podcast. [01:05:30] The final question. It’s a deathbed question.

Awaz Sharief: Right. [01:05:35]

Payman Langroudi: And I know you’re nowhere near your deathbed, but let’s just imagine in many, many, [01:05:40] many years to come, you’ve got your great grandchildren around you, right? [01:05:45] Three pieces of advice to leave for your family and for the world. What would they [01:05:50] be?

Awaz Sharief: Okay, so for me, faith is a very big part of, of my life. So it would be hold on [01:05:55] to your faith. Um, and the second part would be to, um, [01:06:00] be be true to, you know, be authentic, be true to yourself. And for me, the [01:06:05] biggest lesson that I’ve learned is being, you know, your emotions are who you are. Basically, [01:06:10] your emotions are your heart’s way of speaking to you and you understanding more about yourself. So, um, [01:06:15] that would be that would be my number one. If I could send a message out to the whole world, [01:06:20] it would be that, like, listen to your emotions, listen to your feelings, be true and authentic to yourself. Um, [01:06:25] and the third thing that I would say is, um, [01:06:30] um, I can’t think. Now, on my [01:06:35] deathbed, I think I can only think of two. Is that okay?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But, you know, be kind. [01:06:40] Enjoy. You know, like these sort of.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah. Be kind to others. Be kind. Be [01:06:45] kind to others and to yourself. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll [01:06:50] take that. I’ll take that. No. It’s been a massive pleasure. My advice [01:06:55] to you in this moment that you’re sort of free flowing with emotion and manifestation. [01:07:00] Yeah. And energy. Yeah. Remember that. It [01:07:05] won’t always be like this. Yeah, yeah. Not not to put a downer on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But [01:07:10] to say, look, if you really want to.

[TRANSITION]: Be a.

Payman Langroudi: Counsellor of women. Yeah. Go go go. [01:07:15] Jump in. Yes! Jump in. Now, while you’ve got everything aligned. Yeah. [01:07:20] I mean, I remember being your age and wanting to bloody change the world, man. Yeah, it doesn’t [01:07:25] like that now. It doesn’t last sometimes, like, you know, if only life was constantly [01:07:30] like that, man. Yeah. So so go for it. Now. In all directions with teaching. [01:07:35] Yeah. And teaching. Dentistry. Teaching. The other thing.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah, [01:07:40] yeah. The trauma. Yeah. Because for me, it’s just if we can raise a generation of kids and I think they’re already starting to do [01:07:45] that now, where where the. My friend was saying, like at nursery, they’re teaching them to say affirmations like, I [01:07:50] am worthy, I am enough. Yeah. That kind of thing. You know, if we can raise a generation of of [01:07:55] kids or, you know, adults who have such strong self-esteem and strong sense [01:08:00] of who they are, and they trust themselves and they they are unapologetically, you know, [01:08:05] authentic, then you there’s no room in the world for abusers because once [01:08:10] you’re that authentic, you’re just not going to tolerate abuse. And abuse occurs because we accept [01:08:15] it and we tolerate it. And then also the abusers also have their own story because they grew [01:08:20] up not having that validation, and they grew up not feeling like they’re confident, so they feel the need to put other people down. [01:08:25] So if we raise a generation of people who internally feel enough and internally feel [01:08:30] like they have confidence within themselves, and they learn how to validate themselves and teach themselves these [01:08:35] important skills, then then I believe that we we can raise a kinder place [01:08:40] and a place where we don’t have these so many psychological disorders and, [01:08:45] you know, psychological illnesses as well.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you know, what? We do that mental [01:08:50] health podcast as well. Yeah.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But the I mean, the funny thing about it, [01:08:55] I think that the latest generation of the kindest generation that’s ever been around. [01:09:00] Right. But on the other flip side of it, the phones. Yeah. [01:09:05] Are, are actually, you know.

Awaz Sharief: I mean it’s troublesome for us. So I don’t, you know, we didn’t even have this. [01:09:10]

Payman Langroudi: Everyone knows the phone is ruining everyone’s mental health. It’s. There’s nothing. Nothing we can do about it. Yeah. [01:09:15] Yeah. And so that generation, you know, hopefully, um, [01:09:20] will come out. They’ll figure it out. Yeah. Net positive. Right? Yeah.

Awaz Sharief: Yeah. There’s there’s so [01:09:25] much positive. You know, all this stuff about narcissism we didn’t know back in the day. People just thought it was. It existed. But [01:09:30] I guess people didn’t have a name tolerated. It didn’t really have a name. But people are just becoming more aware of it now, and that’s [01:09:35] that’s great. It’s just validated the lives of so many people.

[TRANSITION]: I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Adhd, yeah, [01:09:40] so many things that didn’t have a name. I mean, I remember a kid when we were younger, [01:09:45] he, you know, now looking at it, thinking about it, he was a severe ADHD on [01:09:50] the brink of autistic. Yeah. We should call him weird. He was just. He was just weird. Yeah, [01:09:55] exactly. It was just a strange kid. Yeah. And every now and then, he’d hit one someone really [01:10:00] badly. And, you know, no one, no one knew. No one had the right names for these things back then.

Awaz Sharief: Or [01:10:05] even like postpartum depression.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. So many things. Like. Well, it’s been a massive pleasure. Look, like [01:10:10] I say, I haven’t met someone so, so enthusiastic and passionate about about dentistry [01:10:15] as you for a little while now. So it’s palpable. It’s really nice to see that. Yeah. So [01:10:20] thanks a lot for coming on this. Oh, no.

Awaz Sharief: Thank you. Thank you. My pleasure.

[VOICE]: This [01:10:25] is Dental. Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on one [01:10:30] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:10:35] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:10:40] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And [01:10:45] just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to [01:10:50] say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If [01:10:55] you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share [01:11:00] this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. [01:11:05]

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Dentistry, like you say, is in the best place, but you had 50% of the population are not able [00:00:05] to see a dentist now. Yeah. The conversation here is, is very interesting. Are they, you [00:00:10] know, are they not able to see a dentist or are they not able to see an NHS dentist? Now that’s [00:00:15] a different conversation. Um, but but it’s a funny thing because in this country, people [00:00:20] have not saved up for their teeth. Yeah. And there’s [00:00:25] no insurance to help out. And there’s a there’s a sort of national insurance, right. Yeah. So [00:00:30] but in the US, people know that. I don’t know. I’ve got to save up for college. I’ve got to save up [00:00:35] for the kids braces or whatever. And it’s part of the psyche. Everyone [00:00:40] knows that. Yeah. Because everyone knows that jobs have insurance that [00:00:45] you can extend to your kids, dental insurance that you can extend. That’s why people go [00:00:50] for those jobs. I mean, I had a guy in one of our partners, our suppliers, um, in the US, [00:00:55] saying, the only reason I’m working in this company is. Well, no, the reason why I’m happy working [00:01:00] in this company is because the company my wife works in gives us medical insurance [00:01:05] for both of us, and I’m I’m going to retire soon. What I’m saying is that the setup [00:01:10] is that way.

[VOICE]: This [00:01:15] is Dental Leaders, the [00:01:20] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:01:25] Your hosts Payman Langroudi [00:01:30] and Prav Solanki.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome [00:01:35] Drew Shah back onto the podcast. Drew is a specialist periodontist best [00:01:40] known for his Dentinal Tubules network and community that he [00:01:45] set up 15 years ago now. This is actually Drew’s third appearance on this podcast. [00:01:50] The first was five years ago, where me and Prav interviewed you, drew. [00:01:55] And then there was one other episode, maybe a year after that where you interviewed me in Prav. I [00:02:00] wish I had the episode numbers. I’ll try and get those into the show notes. How you doing, buddy? Thanks for coming in. Oh. Thanks, [00:02:05] man. I feel like you’re making me part of the furniture here now. Um, I might take over as the [00:02:10] host at this rate, but. No, it’s a pleasure. You know, your podcast is so [00:02:15] awesome because it’s been delving into stories of people, and I like the person [00:02:20] behind the person kind of approach that you’ve really opened up. It’s so important in the industry. [00:02:25] We see people on social and we see them on, you know, we get [00:02:30] snippets of people and humans as we are very quick at making judgements. Yeah. [00:02:35] So it’s just so good. What you do is quite cool. Yeah. I mean, it’s funny [00:02:40] because after this podcast, Richard is going to take you upstairs and he’s going to do these video bits with you. Yeah. And [00:02:45] it’s the exact opposite of the podcast. A podcast is like deep dive, long form [00:02:50] emotional conversation.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: But then upstairs, he’s going to be showing you pictures of celebrities. And whose smile [00:02:55] is this? Like the. A, like a very, very like simple on [00:03:00] the surface thing and, you know, content. The reason why people listen [00:03:05] to podcasts is to get that authenticity, isn’t it? That behind [00:03:10] the curtain, you know, why should someone listen to this instead of watching an episode of succession? [00:03:15] You have to remember that it’s not I’m not this this podcast is not in competition with Jazz [00:03:20] Galati’s podcast or something like that. It’s in competition with time, whatever else you could be doing in that [00:03:25] time. Yeah. And so the reason to listen to this, I think why, you know, someone [00:03:30] who’s on their drive to work right now or walking the dog or in the gym, [00:03:35] is to get that authenticity behind the social media kind [00:03:40] of thing that you’re talking about, right? The show reel, it’s a huge behind that. And it’s, [00:03:45] it’s it’s also, um, an interactive conversation. You know, this is a form [00:03:50] of on demand radio. Almost. Right. And actually, somebody was telling me very interestingly, [00:03:55] they said you should move tubules and do more podcasts. Now, you know, I was doing podcasts in [00:04:00] 2013. Wow. And there’s a kid called Cam Kid. Damien Walmsley, retired consultant [00:04:05] now. Right. Um, and I was I was genuinely a toddler based on [00:04:10] that definition. But Damien Walmsley and I did loads of podcasts. 2013 [00:04:15] before I moved into the realms of videos, fully video learning.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: People always say, why [00:04:20] don’t you do more podcasts? Because that’s what I do on the gym. And and one of the things I’ve been [00:04:25] writing a book and I’m actually studying and understanding the pros and cons of different methods of [00:04:30] information sharing and podcasts are that interactive way [00:04:35] of doing stuff. And I suppose getting an insight into [00:04:40] brief insight into different areas, topics, people, they’re not deep learning, but they have such [00:04:45] a good way of opening the door. Yeah, for a lack of a better phrase. I love that. Yeah, [00:04:50] especially as you can do something else while you’re listening to a podcast. Right. That’s the thing. [00:04:55] It’s passive. It’s passive information in your head. Um, I mean, I don’t recommend people to [00:05:00] listen to a lot yourself. You know what? I listen more to audiobooks. Um, I [00:05:05] the podcast that really grasped my attention from a Dental side [00:05:10] were the Leaders podcast, um, which I enjoy because of the stories from a non Leaders [00:05:15] side. I have enjoyed Malcolm Gladwell’s podcasts because they’re really good. Um, [00:05:20] and then I just end up on random podcasts. I. Are you always reading a book [00:05:25] the whole time? Uh, I yeah, my car’s always got an audiobook on. [00:05:30] You’re always reading a book. I’m always. I go through a book a week. Book a week, to put it that way. [00:05:35] Uh, I sent this photo to someone. Right. Covid. I was getting three books delivered [00:05:40] by Amazon every week or something.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Actual books. So I’ve got a process, um, which [00:05:45] is read the book, listen to the audiobook at the same time. I know [00:05:50] after I’ve read the book twice. Twice. And then the third time I read the book. And I’ll make notes. Um. [00:05:55] And really internalise it. And, uh, so after Covid, my wife [00:06:00] came into my. My office is my study at home. So what the hell is this? Bombsight? Honest [00:06:05] to God, I. I sent these photos to people, and so we had to clear it all. And, [00:06:10] uh, anyway, my son started counting the books because we were putting it in the shared library. [00:06:15] 120 books in the last five years. Wow. Um, I think it’s what [00:06:20] he counted, but it’s. Yeah, I’m always. I think it’s my dopamine [00:06:25] information. I feel lost if something’s not entering my brain and processing. So, [00:06:30] yeah, it’s interesting that you go for that repetition because it’s so important. Yeah, [00:06:35] I, I’ve told this story before. I had a CD multi changer [00:06:40] if you remember what that is. Yeah that’s right. Loved it. Yeah I had a CD multi [00:06:45] changer in one of my Alfa Romeos that I used to drive up and down the country visiting [00:06:50] dentists before. Before there was online sales calls. Right. And, um, it [00:06:55] was one of those five, six discs that you’re stuck in under the seat somewhere. But something happened [00:07:00] to it and it wouldn’t change the discs anymore.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: So I just had those six [00:07:05] CDs to play and nothing else on the radio. Yeah. And because I was driving up and down the country, [00:07:10] those six got listened to a lot. Yeah. One of those six was one [00:07:15] episode of Tony Robbins I bought like the 20 disc, you know, [00:07:20] empower the the whatever, the Giant Within or whatever. I can’t remember which one of them it was. It was one of those. Yeah, [00:07:25] it was just one of the 20 CDs. I must have listened to that one maybe [00:07:30] a hundred times. Wow. Overall. Overall. Yeah. But [00:07:35] the number of times that information is hardwired in my head and it was the episode [00:07:40] was about what are the five key questions when you face overwhelm? Yes. [00:07:45] But the number of times do I love who am I grateful for? What am I? What am I not willing [00:07:50] to do anymore? What am I willing to do? How can I get through it and enjoy the process? [00:07:55] And who’s done it before? Is the other one. But the number of times I’ve given that information out to friends [00:08:00] and family, people who are overwhelmed right in that moment of overwhelm. But but I don’t remember [00:08:05] any of the other 19 disks. Right? None of the rest. Can I tell you what they said? [00:08:10] But that one I can tell you. So repetition is so huge. We have it with mini spa makeover [00:08:15] as well.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: We repeat and repeat and repeat throughout the two days. But [00:08:20] you’re so involved in dental education. Yeah. [00:08:25] And you know, we’re all struggling with this question of okay. [00:08:30] Number one, how do you get people to dental education? Because a lot of times we see the same faces. Yeah. [00:08:35] You know, course junkies that sort of thing. Number two, how do you make it so that [00:08:40] the education is actually used by the delegate? Yeah. And it’s [00:08:45] not only just that two days where they’re they’re involved and engaged. How do they [00:08:50] actually use that? How do they move forward? Yeah. And how do you how do you explain to delegates and, and [00:08:55] in general to the profession that the education tends to be the beginning of a process, [00:09:00] not the end of a process? Right. That people think I can go on this two day composite [00:09:05] course and on the, on the Monday morning, I’m fully ready to go. Number [00:09:10] two, how do you make it enjoyable? Because I meet loads of people [00:09:15] on courses who are there because they’re just away for the weekend. Yeah. [00:09:20] They just it’s almost like a good excuse to be away from your life for a weekend and [00:09:25] good on them because, you know, dentistry is hard work. Um, that’s why we try and make it, like, [00:09:30] a social bit. And then the final one. How do you make it affordable for everyone? [00:09:35] Yeah. Yeah. Now, you’ve been so involved in dental education, I think.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Any insights? [00:09:40] You know, first things first. I mean, your first question is very important. How do you get people, you know, involved in [00:09:45] and using education. But actually, this is one of the questions that after I [00:09:50] did the last podcast, Covid hit, right. Covid hit, there was a pandemic of webinars [00:09:55] and suddenly things changed. You know, for how many 20 years I’ve [00:10:00] been telling people online education is a way. That’s right. Covid, you know, there’s like one person and [00:10:05] his name, Nils Palmer, goes, this webinar stuff’s really good now, mate. I’ve been doing for ten years. Where have [00:10:10] you been? Um, and because that information gateway opened up [00:10:15] and that’s not changed now, right? Last five years we’ve seen so much information. [00:10:20] So when we started tubules ten years ago, the problem was the lack of access to content. [00:10:25] Now it’s about lack of curation of content. Yeah. Now, [00:10:30] the one of the questions that I asked quite heavily was, okay, so how do [00:10:35] you curate content? How do you. And I realised actually education is the middle piece. And [00:10:40] and I was telling you it’s about growth right. It’s about improvement. So the thing [00:10:45] that you will engage with in education is the thing that [00:10:50] is valuable and inspiring to you. So step before education is [00:10:55] ask yourself what’s inspiring you? What’s driving you? What’s lighting your spark or [00:11:00] the other side right where you’re going? What’s going to put you into shit so you better learn before [00:11:05] I end up in that place.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: So it’s that Tony Robbins pain and pleasure. That’s what you’ll [00:11:10] take in. Because beyond that, everything goes over your head or you don’t [00:11:15] apply it. You see a lot of people go on courses, get away for the weekend. But the question to [00:11:20] ask is, why are you on that course? What progress do you want to [00:11:25] make? So the step before education, in fact, the two steps before education. [00:11:30] First step is that work out what is your [00:11:35] biggest obstacle. The second step is optimise a strategy. And [00:11:40] this has been some of my work over the last few years. So from a personal journey. Um, [00:11:45] I think I was telling you, I nearly lost tubules. I don’t know, six years ago or [00:11:50] something. Right. We we were five days or something from closure. Money had come through, and I remember. [00:11:55] So I ended up asking an existential crisis [00:12:00] question. Who am I? Why am I here? Kind of shit is deep, right? But [00:12:05] to then figure out my obstacle was trying to understand me. Who? Who am I? What’s [00:12:10] the thing? Took me into an education journey of understanding, learning, self-awareness. How [00:12:15] do you figure out insight? How do you do all this sort of stuff? Now that’s half the books I [00:12:20] read. Probably. I wouldn’t have done that if I didn’t understand my problem. And [00:12:25] so people really spend very little time sitting [00:12:30] back and delving deep into their problem or obstacle or whatever your challenge [00:12:35] you want to call it.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: And then you go to realise there’s a [00:12:40] surface challenge and there’s a deeper challenge. The surface challenge is your, I [00:12:45] don’t know, your I call it the pseudo problem. It’s a hidden problem. And it is equated [00:12:50] to dentistry. You know, your patient comes in and goes, I had pain, I took some antibiotics. They thought the problem [00:12:55] was pain, infection. The real problem was tooth’s got a big hole [00:13:00] and a crack and everything else, which needs some professional help. I think we spent very little time [00:13:05] figuring that out, particularly in dentistry. What do we instead do is we get, [00:13:10] um, driven by sheep. Someone says this is a brilliant course. I went in, all right, let’s all of us book [00:13:15] this course. Right. That’s the first step. Second thing is people don’t optimise the strategy. [00:13:20] And I suppose what I can put it is every problem has complexity. [00:13:25] If someone identifies their problem is communication. I can’t [00:13:30] get my patients to take up treatment, whatever. Actually, that’s a pseudo problem. The [00:13:35] real problem underneath that the problem isn’t Communication. The problem is trust, [00:13:40] right? Patients don’t take up treatment because they don’t trust you. But then the complexity [00:13:45] is it’s not just okay, I’m going to learn about communication trust. Let’s think about all [00:13:50] the facets of that problem. Right. And let’s unlock this because [00:13:55] they talk about the five whys.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Have you heard about that. The five whys. The five whys. Yeah. Yeah. [00:14:00] The fifth. Why is the one that gets to the. So I’m looking for the Chanel bag. Why? [00:14:05] Yeah. Because I want to feel like one of the girls. Why? Because I didn’t feel like one [00:14:10] of the girls. Why? And it goes all the way down to because my mom said something to me or something like that. [00:14:15] Yeah, but that’s kind of where you’re going with it. That’s. That’s where you got to start with the five whys is a perfect strategy. [00:14:20] Um, I’ve worked out another one called, I think it’s called the 3 or 4 P’s as well. You know, what’s your goal? [00:14:25] What’s your behaviours. You know, what are you working on? What are what are the things you do regularly [00:14:30] and then work out the possibilities on that, that because these are my strengths and weaknesses. That’s [00:14:35] why you do something more often than not, right? You’ll always play to your strengths. You always play to what you’re comfortable with, and [00:14:40] then you figure out, hold on, I’ve got a block here. Because of those reasons, the [00:14:45] five whys is actually trying to do that. Toyota built their entire company on this amazingly. [00:14:50] Um, what’s the book? Speed of Trust by Stephen Covey? Stephen Covey’s [00:14:55] son. Right. Um, so the three three generations, Stephen Covey, Stephen Covey, [00:15:00] junior, Stephen Covey, junior, junior. Each one has written a book.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: I didn’t know that. Yeah. It’s hilarious. So speed [00:15:05] of trust written by not the original guy. Anyway, he talks about the five whys. He goes do that with [00:15:10] your patients. But the five whys is the first step. If you can figure out that and then optimise your strategy, [00:15:15] I’ll tell you what. You’ll end up on a course better value for money. You won’t end up on one course. [00:15:20] You’ll end up on five courses, each covering a different angle. You’ll understand that problem better [00:15:25] and the solution better. So you can imagine learning comes as [00:15:30] a third step, you know problem optimise, then learn. Now if you do [00:15:35] that one, you’ll end up on the right course. Two. You won’t waste money. Three. You’ll clear [00:15:40] out all the noise and four threes. And most powerful is. You’ll know why you’re there, [00:15:45] what questions you want answering. You’ll be paying more attention on that course, by the way. Let’s imagine you [00:15:50] are totally self-aware and you’ve worked it out. And you realise my weakness is communication, [00:15:55] right? Even before working on a course, by [00:16:00] the way, obviously get the right course. But even before working on a course, the course of the best [00:16:05] book on the subject. Yeah, was £250. Yeah. Like some, [00:16:10] some book on, you know anything. Layers of one of the quintessence books. Let’s [00:16:15] say it’s composite. Um, £250 for the cost of the book. Yeah. The book will [00:16:20] give you massive insights that the course will not know.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Yeah, because it’s a book. [00:16:25] Yeah. Of course, if you read the book and make notes on it and know everything about it, it’s [00:16:30] still like having read a book about how to sail a ship without ever sailing, you [00:16:35] know, without the ocean present. Right? So I know all the bits, of course. [00:16:40] Kind of will give you that insight a bit more, right? Correct. But you’re right. [00:16:45] And then, of course, there’s the post-course side of it. The mentoring [00:16:50] questions answers often, you know, when you’re talking about strengths [00:16:55] and weaknesses here in in a course, it’s important to try and figure out who [00:17:00] the strongest ones and who are the weakest ones and which where to put your attention. Yeah, yeah. Because because, [00:17:05] because you, you know, in a way you think of it in a linear way. Well, okay, let me put my attention [00:17:10] on the weaker ones. Yeah. But the weaker ones are holding back the rest of the class kind [00:17:15] of thing. Yeah. Um, obviously the stronger ones appreciate the attention even more. [00:17:20] And, you know, there’s that sort of. But I think that you’ve got to think, well, what do you mean by stronger and weaker? [00:17:25] Because, um, when you learn course, the first thing to do as a course provider, the first thing [00:17:30] I end up doing is stepping down and going back to what I just said, ask people, why are you here? Yeah, yeah.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: What’s the [00:17:35] thing you want to get out of this course? Because and I internalise it quite strongly because I [00:17:40] want to understand what they want to learn. So we do this two day period surgery course covers a million things [00:17:45] right now. If one person said, actually, I’m pretty crap at suturing, that’s why I’m here. And one goes [00:17:50] and never held a blade in my life. Now it’s easy to just say the one who hasn’t held [00:17:55] the blade is the weaker one, but actually they are at a different part of the course. [00:18:00] When we’re teaching incisions, they’re going to need more attention. When I go into suturing, this person [00:18:05] is going to need more attention. And again, it’s unlocking those nuances, unlocking [00:18:10] each delegate. I mean, teaching is hard work. It kills you because of that. You’re you’re you’re you’re 14 [00:18:15] people who you’re trying to unlock. And that’s what you’ve got to do. Now, what [00:18:20] we have to then work out is which part of a course is going to be relevant to who, and [00:18:25] at those stages, who is then going to need the most attention and how what’s their level. [00:18:30] You know, they’ve done nothing. They’re going to be you know, they’ve done nothing. I’m going to have to teach them how to load a [00:18:35] blade on the blade holder. Well, they’ve done loads. So I’m going to have to teach them the nuances [00:18:40] of how do you move the suture into the tissues while holding the tissue the right way.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: And [00:18:45] each one, then you realise they’re weak, they’re they’re weak, they’re and they’re strong. They’re [00:18:50] they’re strong there. That’s the hard part. And of those two days everyone must go away [00:18:55] going. My problem was met on this course implementations, [00:19:00] the hard work. And if you’ve not found a problem and all you do, [00:19:05] then you’ll never implement it. But if you’ve come on a course having diagnosed your problem, guess what? [00:19:10] You know why you’re on the course. You’re going to go and try and solve it. And that that adds and [00:19:15] how much power that adds. I don’t know, a huge amount. On the repetition front, we encourage [00:19:20] people who’ve come on the composite course to come again. Yeah. For free. Yeah. Obviously they don’t [00:19:25] do the hands on bit for free. They sit in the back. But the reason why I’ve done that is because I’ve obviously [00:19:30] been to that course 70, 80, 100 times, right? I’m still learning every [00:19:35] time. Every time. I’m still learning because I’m seeing it with different eyes. I’m focusing at different parts [00:19:40] of the process. I’m getting hardwired bits that I didn’t grasp, and now I take for granted. [00:19:45] You know, there was a study they did of teaching neurosurgeons or was it vascular [00:19:50] surgeons? Right. They were, um, suturing rats vessels. One [00:19:55] group was told, you will learn there were four, four procedures. You learn all four of them in [00:20:00] one day, one session.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: The second group was told you will learn four procedures spread over [00:20:05] four weeks. So one procedure. Wait for a week. Next procedure. Now here’s the interesting thing. [00:20:10] The group that had learned everything in one intense session. When they then went on rats, [00:20:15] they were much worse, 50% worse. In fact, some of them 50%, [00:20:20] 50%. And some of them, um, even managed to damage [00:20:25] the the rats arteries so badly they couldn’t save them, right? While those who had done stuff [00:20:30] well, there were 50% better they could. Their skills were better. All the measurements were better. [00:20:35] Now, the reason this happens is because you’ve said bit of it. You look at it a different [00:20:40] perspective. But also when you’ve learned something, you’ve learned the first time you’ve [00:20:45] consciously learnt it, you go away. Your brain is sub processing [00:20:50] all of this. You’re getting other experiences. Your brain is making more connections. When you [00:20:55] come back the second time, what you’re doing without realising is you’re retrieving [00:21:00] this information you’d learned previously. Retrieval increases your your brain’s neuronal [00:21:05] connections, so you’re learning more the second time. So that’s [00:21:10] the power. And it’s basically there’s two things. One’s called interleaving. One’s called spacing. Those [00:21:15] are the scientific thoughts around it. Interleaving um, is is doing different [00:21:20] things rather than just learning the same thing. The spaced learning is keeping the spaces. [00:21:25] Uh, There’s loads of things like that. The other thing is passive and active learning.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: I’m boring you with this information. [00:21:30] Possibly, but passive learning is just imbibing things, right? Active learning is saying, you [00:21:35] know, let’s, um, actually make you do stuff. So this three groups, one group was told to read [00:21:40] an article, um, and then some time later read it again. Some time later, read [00:21:45] it again. So three reads and then the fourth time write it down. Second group was [00:21:50] told read twice, I think I can’t remember and then write it down. The third group was given one reading and told [00:21:55] write it down. They were tested immediately after the first group had 82% [00:22:00] memory, right? Fine. Second group had 70%, third group had something like 7780, [00:22:05] 69%, something like that. But what happened is the biggest challenge was a week [00:22:10] later or the biggest gain. That first group, who had 82%, had dropped down [00:22:15] after a week to 62% because they’d been told to read, read, read, which is passive learning. [00:22:20] Last group they were told to read only once and write things down. You have to recall so much, [00:22:25] they only lost about 6% of what they had. So there’s [00:22:30] a lot of power in two things spacing your learning. And each time you learn making [00:22:35] that effort rather than just sitting there and skilling things in. Huge [00:22:40] power in all of that. Um, and these are some of the tools I’m building on the new tubules, which I’m really excited [00:22:45] about because I think, um, just sitting there and learning is, is a bit passive. [00:22:50]

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: We want to make it the most powerful learning engine growth engine. So this is some of the stuff we’re coming on board. Love it. [00:22:55] So let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about where we are as a snapshot right now. I mean the [00:23:00] community numbers, the, you [00:23:05] know, engagement. They’re not. How many people are you guys. We’re still the team [00:23:10] of we were six when I last came here and we’re probably eight now. Is that it? Yeah. Eight. [00:23:15] Super hard working. Yeah. They’re still doing the job. I know your people. Your people give you [00:23:20] 24 hours a day, right? You know, I’ve always said. And I always said, I’ll let [00:23:25] them do it at their own pace. I just say, look, guys, this needs doing. And it happens. Um, and it’s again, [00:23:30] that connection, you know, that purpose driven energy though. Yeah. That you get from a [00:23:35] company like yours. Leadership. You know, I’m not blowing trumpet, but I’ve always said, [00:23:40] guys, this is not about me or you or you know, us. It’s about the person said [00:23:45] at the end of the computer or in our conference who’s experiencing what we want to deliver [00:23:50] for them. It’s always about them. Um, and the more you put out there and I also say, look, the [00:23:55] more we, uh, give to tubules, the more tubules builds, the more we can [00:24:00] support the foundation. And those two facts, leadership. You know, what are some of the headlines? What [00:24:05] are some of the headlines? So so how many people are members? What’s actually what’s hold on this.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: What is the [00:24:10] current offering. So look the current pay you how much and what do I get. The current offering [00:24:15] is something £250 a year. Yeah. And you get a huge amount of online content. [00:24:20] Yeah. Um, which is we actually did this audit just about [00:24:25] a couple of years ago. We had 72,000 minutes of content, 2000 [00:24:30] videos. Right. Compare that to Ted talks. At that point, they had 69,000 minutes. [00:24:35] Wow. So we had more in dentistry than Ted talks, which covers the world. Wow. But that’s just one offering, [00:24:40] you know. And then we have the study clubs. We have the community. You get how many of them are there? Uh, there [00:24:45] are about 52. Around the 52? Yeah. Wow. But, you [00:24:50] know, they’re a mixture of how often do they meet active mix? The variable depends on who’s leading them. [00:24:55] What about the top one? How often does that one meet? The top ones do at least once a month. Once a month? At least once a month. [00:25:00] Eight times a year. Because they’re not going to do Christmas or and then events. You’ve got your main event, the Congress. [00:25:05] But unfortunately you’re telling me is the last one. It’s the last one, which I can’t believe. But there’s [00:25:10] that. We’ll go into that in a minute. And then there’s are there other events.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Mhm. We do roadshows around [00:25:15] the country. How many of them we this year we did 8 or 9 of them um, last [00:25:20] year and and did about 15 across the country. Look, everyone says that everything’s [00:25:25] down in London. I think you’ve probably faced this. So one of the big things we said is let’s take it around the country. [00:25:30] But also remember, part of the roadshows is tubules, educators who’ve spent [00:25:35] years doing all the forms of learning, teaching. So they’ve done the online [00:25:40] teaching, they’ve done the courses. All of these. And the roadshows is their last hurdle before they get [00:25:45] the tubules teacher jacket, which is a recognition for their hard [00:25:50] work commitment to helping others grow. Uh, for £250. [00:25:55] Most people get that, which I think is is is probably more than value for money. It’s a, um, [00:26:00] but a lot of people tend to think it’s still expensive because they see tubules [00:26:05] as CPD. And one of the big challenges is I figured in dentistry [00:26:10] is what you’ve just said. We see 20% of the people attending, 80% of [00:26:15] all the learning. Uh, and how do we how do we move more people into [00:26:20] growth? You know, stop ticking boxes. I’m getting you know, I tell people, stop ticking boxes. [00:26:25] The GDC and the CQC in the UK have made this culture. Here’s [00:26:30] a list CPD do this. Like that’s not going to help you grow. If anything, it’s going to [00:26:35] devalue you.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Um, but that commoditization of CPD has become [00:26:40] a big challenge for us. Yeah. For instance, I tell my team not to even, like, [00:26:45] advertise CPD. You know, like, you take someone who’s a marketing [00:26:50] person. Yeah. Yeah. They don’t know what’s going on. Right. They just like they want to list. What are the benefits [00:26:55] of this course? Well, of course you get this skill. You learn that you get a certificate, you get CPD, you [00:27:00] know, so then they start to market. The fact that you get CPD with this. Yeah. And I don’t [00:27:05] want anyone to come on any of our education in order to get a CPD box. Right. Yeah. [00:27:10] But even more than that, I don’t know what I think about this because it’s a fair [00:27:15] number of people who come to our course are coming to say they’ve been on the course on a CV. [00:27:20] Yeah. Yeah. And it’s actually one of the main drivers. [00:27:25] Yeah. To be able to move from NHS to private. Yeah. They think well [00:27:30] what are the things that a private dentist wants. If you’re just thinking randomly you’ll go oh it’s [00:27:35] it’s aligners. It’s a composite bonding I [00:27:40] guess. Implants. Right. You know, digital dentistry. And they almost go and tick off those [00:27:45] sort of courses to get a job. And it’s interesting because it’s a different motivation altogether. [00:27:50] Yeah. You know actually actually that you highlight. Let’s go to five once again. [00:27:55] But you highlight a big challenge here.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: What’s a private dentist or someone who does aligners and bonding. Hold [00:28:00] on. That’s 50% of the population out there looking for a general dentist. And people [00:28:05] think private dentistry is different. No. If you did your general proper dentistry, not [00:28:10] in NHS, but privately and just talk to patients and really built [00:28:15] their trust. Then guess what? You probably won’t win as much, right? I’m a periodontist. [00:28:20] 90% of my work is root planing. You know, people go gum gardening. Yeah, perfect. [00:28:25] But I get patients who come in. They’re willing. They don’t even sometimes ask me for the estimate. [00:28:30] Drew, when can we go and get this started? Right. And invariably, you know, our rates are high, [00:28:35] especially periodontists. If you can do that, you’ll do normal dentistry, [00:28:40] which is stress free. Easier for a specialist, though, dude. No. Yeah. No, but easier for a specialist. [00:28:45] I’ll tell you what it’s not. I mean, look, come on. Easier for. Especially because you’ve been presold by the referrer. [00:28:50] No, we I get walk ins. I get walk ins. Who? Actually. What word of mouth? Word [00:28:55] of mouth. Yeah, yeah. Who? Look at and go. You’re going to charge me more? Sometimes, yes. [00:29:00] They refer us pre-sold. But most times patients don’t come to you [00:29:05] because you’re a specialist. They come to you because you are the person who’s going to help them [00:29:10] cross this bridge. They want to know if you’re trustworthy, they want to know if you’re the person [00:29:15] who’s interest, you know you’re the dentist who’s interest is me.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: If I’m the patient, right. [00:29:20] If I’ve been on a course of how to win £1 million. Right. That course is [00:29:25] teaching me how to think about me. Let’s change these courses. Let’s go on courses [00:29:30] that tell you how to look after somebody else. How to win their trust. You know this. People [00:29:35] don’t buy what they see first. They buy what they feel. Everybody knows, right? If [00:29:40] someone feels good about you, they will buy anything from you. They [00:29:45] will come see you again and again. We’re forgetting this in dentistry, when things go wrong, [00:29:50] they won’t sue you. But things go wrong. They won’t sue you. They. They will be much more amicable. [00:29:55] In fact, when things go wrong, they might ask you if you’re okay first, right? Relationship [00:30:00] building is so powerful. It’s not the dentistry. And people have forgotten this because the dentists [00:30:05] always think is dentistry, right? All day long we sit there and go dentistry. What is dentistry? Two tooth [00:30:10] tooth. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Let’s go back. Dentistry is actually first, another human being [00:30:15] making something vulnerable that’s important to them and putting it in your hands. This is Charles [00:30:20] Feldman’s definition of trust. If they can put something that’s really important to them [00:30:25] and make it vulnerable to your hands, and you can say thank you for giving me this, what does that mean? Give me an [00:30:30] example of that when a patient comes to you.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Yeah. How easy is it [00:30:35] for the patient to sit down there and go be vulnerable? I don’t like this [00:30:40] gap in my teeth or I’m really worried about something. Right. They’ve seen it the [00:30:45] first time. Right. And they’re opening up to you. They are making themselves vulnerable. They’re giving [00:30:50] you their weakness. Right? Yeah. Step one. Step two. That’s important to you. Important [00:30:55] to them. Sorry. As a patient. Now they’ve taken it and put it in your hands. You have the power [00:31:00] to do what’s right for them, or you have the power to say, this is going to give me more [00:31:05] bonus points to go to platinum elite level, whatever. Right? That [00:31:10] choice of when you make that decision is hugely [00:31:15] important, because if you make a choice that’s right for the patient, they will get it. They will feel [00:31:20] it straight away. You do not need to do a lot of bonding and Invisalign and stuff. You [00:31:25] do what you are comfortable with and if you do it right for patients, my [00:31:30] God, these people come in in their hordes. We have a big trust issue with the public [00:31:35] out there. Why? Because we don’t address this very basic issue well, [00:31:40] because there’s a structural problem in that. As a patient, I can’t see what [00:31:45] my problem is and I can’t see what the solution is. And just [00:31:50] like me, I know nothing about cars.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: I take my car to a dealer. Yeah, I have no [00:31:55] idea, dude. No, I’ve got zero. I don’t know about you. I’ve got zero idea. When the guy says [00:32:00] he can say anything, he’ll say brakes need changing. Uh, oil, whatever. [00:32:05] You know, whatever. Whatever he says. Yeah, I’ve got two choices at that point. Go spend another [00:32:10] half a day finding another garage to get a second opinion. Yeah. Which I haven’t got that amount [00:32:15] of time. Yeah. Agree. And do everything or the opposite. Sorry. Three choices [00:32:20] not to do the thing and risk my family’s life. Correct. And that’s kind of the situation [00:32:25] structurally. That’s where we’re at in dentistry. Now, what you’re suggesting is very clever [00:32:30] and very important. If that is the structural problem, what are we going to do to address it? And [00:32:35] what I’m hearing from you for now is you’re saying to be a great guy and that will [00:32:40] come through. Is that what you’re saying? No. It’s more are you saying or are you saying there are tactics? No, don’t. [00:32:45] Don’t just be a great guy. Learn the art of understanding another human being. [00:32:50] Right. Go on. There’s an art to understanding another human being. And the first thing in that art is that God [00:32:55] gave you two reasons. And one mouth for a reason to listen. Yeah. To listen. Just listen. Let them talk. [00:33:00] Yeah. Let them open. It goes back to what we spoke about.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Just the way you select your courses [00:33:05] by identifying your problem. Yeah. Diagnosis. Make the right diagnosis. [00:33:10] Now with the car. When somebody says your brakes need doing [00:33:15] this and that you have one of you is going to go this. I don’t trust this guy. Right. [00:33:20] But if I pay him, you’re going to get buyer’s remorse at some level. But there are some mechanics you go [00:33:25] and see and you go, you know what? I trust this guy. He actually comes across correctly. Yeah. Right. Not because he’s a great [00:33:30] guy. Because he’s sat there and he spoke to me for a while. Why do you enjoy driving this car? [00:33:35] What’s great about treat me like a number? He treated me like a person. He treated me like a person. And beyond that, you want to try [00:33:40] and figure my kid, right? I sit with my boy. He’s six and a half now. There’s two ways I can deal [00:33:45] with this kid. He does something wrong. I can snap at him. Stick or carrot or stick or carrot. But [00:33:50] it’s not okay. Sit down and go. Okay, guy, let’s have a chat here. No crying. Sit down. Talk to me. So [00:33:55] now he’s learned. He sits down and goes, listen, I did something wrong. I know, but this was this story. Okay, great. Thanks. [00:34:00] You know how much trust that builds. We’re forgetting that. Just sit and listen. [00:34:05] I get an hour for a consult, right? The other day, some receptionist came.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: I couldn’t imagine [00:34:10] how much the patient was talking. I said yeah, because I was letting them talk. Let them. And it’s [00:34:15] also, um, there’s a massive there are things to this tactics. Right? So one [00:34:20] of them is figuring out people. One person says, I don’t want to lose all my teeth. Next one says, I want to keep [00:34:25] all my teeth. They mean the same thing, but they framed it differently. Stick and carrot. One [00:34:30] says, I don’t want this pain. I want this pleasure. You’re trying to understand that other human being. You’re trying [00:34:35] to connect it in their world. And if you connect in their world, they [00:34:40] kind of go, I like this guy. Where do I sign? But you try and go, okay, [00:34:45] I’m not going to connect to your world, but I can show you some manipulative ways of moving your side, right? So you have [00:34:50] you have a choice of one, two and three. There’s there’s one, right. There’s this. It’s an action. So you can’t do it. But [00:34:55] when it’s pointing in three directions, you have a choice of a denture bridge or an implant. Which one would you prefer? Yeah. [00:35:00] Subconsciously putting implant that that that has consequences after. [00:35:05] And I’m hearing more stories coming through now where we’re in deep financial crisis [00:35:10] and patients are only going, I spent three years. Three years ago I spent money on Invisalign and patients coming [00:35:15] and going.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Oh, actually, the dentist was very rushed at that time. Actually, they didn’t look after me. This [00:35:20] buyer’s remorse starts kicking in because emotionally, the wrong connection was made three years [00:35:25] ago, four years ago, five years ago. That emotional unravelling happens later. And [00:35:30] that brings another point. Long term play the long game. For God’s sake, take it easy. You’ve been doing this for [00:35:35] how many, 24 years, you said. Yeah, right. You know the story of the long game. People who trust you, they’ve [00:35:40] taken a while, right? That long game has a huge amount of power. We’re forgetting that you don’t [00:35:45] become a big winning practice or dentist or whatever in in one year. [00:35:50] It takes time. Just take your time. It’s it’s a tough journey. Taking time is a tough [00:35:55] journey because when things are not happening, you’re like, God sake, I got bills to pay. I got this to do. Just [00:36:00] just Handle that and you get a much better calibre of practice. [00:36:05] Career. Patience. Everything. Anyway, that’s my view. That’s beautiful. Now, I wanted to ask [00:36:10] you another question. Right. You come across so many dentists, probably more than any other person [00:36:15] I know, right? I come across a lot of dentists. I hardly know anyone who isn’t a dentist. Yeah. [00:36:20] Same as you. It’s unfortunate, man, I can’t find a plumber. But do [00:36:25] you recognise what I’m saying? When you come across a lot of these. These ones. Right. Very [00:36:30] happy. Dentists love their job.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Yeah. They define [00:36:35] themselves by their job. Almost. Their social life is intertwined [00:36:40] into their job. Want their children to be dentists. People like you, [00:36:45] right? You were just telling me if someone gives you $1 billion, you don’t want to sell the company. You want to keep going. [00:36:50] Yeah. Billions. Big number. But you see what I’m saying? There are those people. Yeah. [00:36:55] Then the opposite. That the exact opposite. I don’t [00:37:00] need to talk you through it, but you know all the different things that don’t want to go to work. And [00:37:05] then I type in the middle, I type in the middle. Yeah. Kind of like being a dentist. [00:37:10] They they like life more than dentistry ones. Now, what [00:37:15] are the characteristics, do you think of the type of person who loves it and the type [00:37:20] of person who hates it? Because for me, the one thing I’ve put put down that I can put my finger on [00:37:25] is the kind of guy who’s improving every day is engaged. The [00:37:30] kind of guy who isn’t in the job just isn’t interesting enough. If you’re not improving, you [00:37:35] know, it’s got all of the downsides is what you need, right? Yeah. Because, you [00:37:40] know, there’s other jobs where, you know, you could be, I don’t know, whatever it is flipping burgers, stacking shelves, whatever, where [00:37:45] the risk isn’t there, the stress isn’t there, and you’re just doing the job and you listen to your podcast [00:37:50] and that’s your life in dentistry.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: It’s full of risk, full of stress. If you’re [00:37:55] not enjoying it, it just can grind you down, right? 100%. And that’s [00:38:00] not just a history lesson, that’s life. Steve Jobs said something like, uh, uh, facing [00:38:05] difficulties is something you hate is stress, and facing difficulties is something you love is passion, right? [00:38:10] I think he said something, though. It sounds right as everywhere now. I actually since Covid, I’ve [00:38:15] picked up more phone calls from young dentists than I ever had in, you know, ten, 15 years before that. [00:38:20] They were lost. They were stuck. They were disheartened. They were facing challenges. [00:38:25] I’ve never picked up as many phone calls. Um, and this was part of the journey for [00:38:30] me. Uh, I was already trying to unlock my sort of personal [00:38:35] challenges and all that. But I realised everyone’s facing that kind of challenge. And you [00:38:40] know what it is. You don’t connect with what you do. Then it’s not you. [00:38:45] We’re all ultimately computers, right? We talk about strengths and weaknesses, [00:38:50] but we have our values. We have our the way we think. You know, we all have different ways [00:38:55] of processing. So I think logically, another way of thinking is musical [00:39:00] thinking. There’s 7 or 8 types of intelligence. If you listen to a guy called Howard Gardner. The [00:39:05] job you do is tapping into all of that. It’s tapping into your values, your beliefs, your ways [00:39:10] of thinking, your ways of operating.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: People love dentistry without realising. [00:39:15] I’ve been tapping into that for years now. You know. Let’s. Govinda. Right, guv. You [00:39:20] give guv any instrument. I’m not talking about dentistry. You give him an anvil or [00:39:25] whatever, he’ll go and paint and do his fence. This guy is naturally built to [00:39:30] build things. So he’s just building things in dentistry. That’s his natural persona. [00:39:35] These guys are always going to love dentistry because it’s not a job for them. It’s a simple [00:39:40] expression of their authentic self in there. The authenticity we talked about, and I think [00:39:45] that’s one of those things you put me on stage to talk. I can talk for Africa. I [00:39:50] think part of my authenticity is I just like to talk sometimes bull crap, sometimes [00:39:55] good stuff. But those people who don’t enjoy dentistry. I think part of [00:40:00] the challenge becomes that they’re just not connecting to it. They’re not the [00:40:05] doing type. Maybe they’re the, you know, writing type, the thinking type, whatever it is. [00:40:10] And if you actually ask them, they have talents outside of dentistry, you know, great artists, [00:40:15] great musicians, great singers, whatever. That’s one of the challenges. The [00:40:20] thing is, though, the job consists of doing certainly planning. Yeah, but a bunch of other [00:40:25] things here that the people side I mean, the one you’ve been talking about the whole of this podcast, [00:40:30] right. Yeah. Um, and then once you’re, you know, you’re owning a business or whatever, the business [00:40:35] side.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Right? Yeah. And it could be any one of those that’s out of kilter. Right? You [00:40:40] might be the best. Like DIY and Meccano guy who loves gluing [00:40:45] something on under rubber dam. Yeah. And yet your people skills are [00:40:50] just are just crap. You just you’re just. You suffer. No. There are people who say, you [00:40:55] know, introverts and extroverts, right? People who get drained by meetings and then people who get [00:41:00] fed by meetings. Right? Correct. So that’s the thing, right? And in the strengths and [00:41:05] weaknesses discussion, I think I’ve always been a proponent of work [00:41:10] on your strengths, not your weaknesses. Always Marcus Buckingham stuff. Yeah. Just just personally just be good at [00:41:15] what you are and make it better in my life. Maybe I’m on an ADHD or whatever it is. Yeah. Let’s say [00:41:20] I’ve got some really big weaknesses. You could give me the tools [00:41:25] and the books and the on the on that weakness. I just will not get involved in [00:41:30] it. But if your weakness is one of those 4 or 5 cornerstones [00:41:35] in dentistry, which is people planning, executing [00:41:40] staff, patients, business, all those those there are five, you know. Yeah. Essentials. [00:41:45] If one of those is a weakness to the point that it’s affecting all the others. [00:41:50] Yeah. You’ve got to address that weakness. You have to at some level. But. But we forget a partner. [00:41:55] That’s what I’m saying. You forget one thing, right? Is that actually, you’re not alone. [00:42:00]

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Build a team around you. Yeah, yeah. Right. And building your team is. Is actually that right? So if [00:42:05] I’m not complementary skills. Skills. Right. Why have we forgotten this industry? We have a nursing shortage [00:42:10] right now because we keep going. These technical courses. How many business owners? You said go [00:42:15] forget the technical. I’m going to go on leadership courses. Yeah, right. Leadership is about people management. How many [00:42:20] of us do it? Not enough. Now if I’m an introvert [00:42:25] let’s I’m going to put an example. But my nurse complements that skill. Yeah. Now [00:42:30] that I can harness that strength massively. These are the things. Listen, I’m a periodontist [00:42:35] because genuinely, I struggle with my hands. 20 years a dentist. It’s the hardest thing for [00:42:40] me has been technical skills, right? Hardest thing? I’m not even joking there. Periodontist [00:42:45] is behaviour change. I love that slide. Right. I’m going to be a periodontist because now [00:42:50] I have a few set of technical skills to master. It does. I’ve [00:42:55] done what you did. I’ve, you know, learned to be a specialist in technical skills of how you [00:43:00] build your weaknesses, but you build them around your strengths. That’s a sensible way to go. Pick [00:43:05] your strengths, then attach your weaknesses to it. Because that way your weakness [00:43:10] isn’t alone. It’s latching onto something stronger. I don’t know rock climbers, you know the best one goes forward and [00:43:15] the best one then leads the other one on.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Do that and you’ll suddenly find you go into a [00:43:20] much better way. Harness your team. I’m not the best at detail management. My [00:43:25] team are OCD. I come up with an idea, they go drew and I write it down. You missed a full [00:43:30] stop there. You did it. Suddenly they refine the idea. It’s a known concept, right? In business. [00:43:35] In everywhere. Why aren’t we doing that in dentistry? To a greater level? Are there some [00:43:40] patients cannot change with me? I try my best. I send them to the hygienist. [00:43:45] And her name’s Liddy. Best hygienist in the world. I say in my world anyway. [00:43:50] She changes this patient to come back. I’m like, whoa, what happened here? Harness that [00:43:55] strength. We need to do more of that hugely powerful, interesting idea that behaviour change [00:44:00] management for our patients in your field. Right. In perio [00:44:05] and hygiene. I reckon there should be a three month module yet. Purely, [00:44:10] purely about behaviour change. Yeah. Like they can sit and scale and whatever for [00:44:15] years. If they can’t get people to change their behaviour and I don’t know if there is or there [00:44:20] isn’t a module by now, today these days is it? Is there. I don’t know, I’m not sure. But actually forget [00:44:25] perio. Surely we are dealing with humans, dentistry. All of dentistry needs a psychology [00:44:30] course. Let’s be honest, right? I mean, at some level. So. So now you’ve got you’re developing this [00:44:35] platform now to sort of take you through a process of questions and answers [00:44:40] as far as the career pathway is that am I right? Yeah.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: So [00:44:45] explain to me, explain to me where’s it going? Let’s go with this. Ten years ago. Yeah. The problem was [00:44:50] the lack of information. Now there’s more information out there. Step one. So we’re [00:44:55] creating a system where first you go through a process where you figure out your challenges, [00:45:00] those challenges you type them in the AI system says picks [00:45:05] up the key stuff, points you to the right direction. These online tubules videos [00:45:10] will help. These courses will help. So, you know, we launched a partner section where [00:45:15] partners can list their courses on tubules. The third thing we’re now adding is partners will be able to add [00:45:20] external links as well. And so the whole course directory turns up. So this is your challenge. [00:45:25] These are the right courses for you right. Step one or step one and two. You [00:45:30] book those courses. You watch those tubules videos whatever. Just claim your CPD. Now [00:45:35] the system goes, okay, you’ve done your learning. Then it tells you where’s your portfolio. Now before [00:45:40] we go there, what questions is it asking? Is it literally saying are you comfortable doing it. No, it goes [00:45:45] deeper. What are your strengths weaknesses, resources? This and that? One step. Step two. You [00:45:50] send this form to your colleagues. Guys, give me a an assessment of me. Right. That’s cool. [00:45:55]

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Step three it sends this 360. It literally goes deeper. Not just questions. [00:46:00] Gather the data to collect all this information. Use that data [00:46:05] to now build the probabilities of your challenges. Okay, so then you direct them to videos, direct [00:46:10] them to courses. Keep going. Do the learning. What happens next? Records your CPD. Okay. You’ve done this [00:46:15] learning. It’s measuring your growth, right. You’ve figured your problem. You’ve learned. Step four build [00:46:20] a portfolio. What you’ve learned on that challenge. Where’s your portfolio to [00:46:25] show you’ve addressed it and then start again. So it’s a full cycle that keeps going. And [00:46:30] the idea is like you said, if you’re stuck in the same thing, you get bored. Yeah. This [00:46:35] helps you grow. This helps you push your barriers. Um, and that’s what we’ve done. So it makes your [00:46:40] entire growth process so much more Focussed, [00:46:45] directional, intentional because it’s taking you on a journey. You know what you’re improving [00:46:50] on, what you need to learn and how you’re going to measure that improvement before you start the process all over [00:46:55] again. And my thinking is, the more of these you do, you’re just going to go leaps [00:47:00] and bounds. The reason I can do it because I did it myself. When my personal growth happened, when I was [00:47:05] stuck, I was like, what’s the problem? Right? Where do I need to learn? What do I need to learn? How do I get better? Let’s [00:47:10] re-evaluate. And where are you at with it? Is it is it ready? It’s ready.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: It’s what’s it called? Stage testing. [00:47:15] Um, we’ve called it tubules. Everyone has a name. So the previous site was called Solaris when we brought on [00:47:20] the partner. So this is the whole new site. Whole new site. It’s got a massive eye because look, the [00:47:25] problem no longer it’s not just shortage of information. So many courses out there. Listen, the courses [00:47:30] are dime a dozen and people are going, how do I select the right course for me? Well, if we can make you a digital [00:47:35] mentor system, that’s going to help you, and hopefully the next stage then is going to be we’re going to be [00:47:40] training people, Um, as as I hate calling the word coach [00:47:45] as guides, so you could tap into one of those guides and say, help me through this process. Now we’re introducing [00:47:50] a certain level of mentorship into that certain member of guide ship into that. It [00:47:55] also feeds into companies and educators who go, actually so many people here putting [00:48:00] their challenges in. I better feed my course into that. We’re creating the pipeline. Educators [00:48:05] are creating the outlet for that pipeline. We’re connecting dentistry into a different growth area, and hopefully [00:48:10] everyone wins. That’s the process. Um, as a simple tool now, [00:48:15] I’ve spent a lot of time studying growth and how people progress and what [00:48:20] drives people and all the questions you said. So we thought, let’s build a platform that does that.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: So yeah, [00:48:25] it’s been a massive task five years in the building really. Um, five years in the building. We built the Sultaness, [00:48:30] which was just after Covid. That was the first stage, took the feedback from it, made [00:48:35] the mistakes, whatever. Now we’re building the next stage up. But I think that problem is wider. By the way, [00:48:40] it’s not just dentistry. That’s the first thing. Actually, even if you look at dentistry, right, your challenge [00:48:45] may be how do I grow my business? My challenge may be how the hell do I get my, um, my [00:48:50] my nurses motivated? Someone else’s challenge might be how do I do a certain clinical issue? [00:48:55] So everyone’s different. So everyone’s challenge is different. So one it it allows [00:49:00] a wider application. But that framework anybody can use it. [00:49:05] Right. It’s beyond industry. Everyone’s got challenges. Everyone put people to the right learning courses. [00:49:10] That fits the challenge. Just more powerful learning. So true. I get this question [00:49:15] all the time from young dentists right about I ask them what where do you see yourself in [00:49:20] five years time? Yeah. And none of them? No. None of them know and I [00:49:25] don’t I don’t know why I expect them to know, although there are some who do know. Right. Yeah, yeah. And I always whenever [00:49:30] someone says, hey, I want to be a endodontist or, you know, something, whatever they say [00:49:35] might say, I want to own 100 practices.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Yeah. When they know, I feel like they’re going to [00:49:40] accelerate way quicker to that, to that end. Yeah. And often [00:49:45] my advice has been just pick. Yeah. And you know, it kind of it’s [00:49:50] a bit weird because, hey, if my brain is an Indo brain and Indo was my calling. [00:49:55] Yeah. And I happen to pick period. But out of the bag then [00:50:00] have I done myself a disservice? And would I have been this amazing endodontist if I’d given myself enough time [00:50:05] to get exposed to it? But my question was, my question is in [00:50:10] that process of like becoming the dentist that you should be, is [00:50:15] it going to address something like that? Because it’s the most common question. It is. And [00:50:20] look my, my, there’s two things here. You know, Oprah, Oprah Winfrey who you know, she’s interviewed [00:50:25] millions of people. She said the ones who were the most successful knew where they were going. Right. So the acceleration [00:50:30] of the process. But I’ve gone the other way actually, I’ve told people don’t decide, especially as young dentists [00:50:35] don’t decide. The world’s your oyster. Tomorrow something happens. It’ll change your journey. Yeah. Go back and [00:50:40] think why you did industry in the first place, right? Because. Because intention, right is what’s going to [00:50:45] drive your goal. So before you even make a goal, what’s the purpose behind that goal? Right now [00:50:50] I’m not saying go and find your purpose because that doesn’t happen.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Purpose is too powerful a word, right? Your [00:50:55] cause is too powerful word. So you go a bit lighter and go, what do you enjoy? What’s your interest? [00:51:00] What’s the thing that kind of sparks you at this point in time? And someone might say, composite [00:51:05] spark me. Someone might say, actually, none of this sparks me. What I really enjoy is teaching. Whatever it [00:51:10] is, I go, okay to teach. What do you need to do? I need to speak. Yeah. [00:51:15] Do you think you need cases? Yeah. What do you want to teach? Why? Just ask those interesting [00:51:20] questions. Because. Follow your interest. Um, Angela Duckworth [00:51:25] in grit said you don’t find a passion. You foster a passion about fostering passion. [00:51:30] What happens is you find things you enjoy. And because you enjoy it, you suddenly go deeper into it, [00:51:35] because you go deeper into it, and you realise actually this is more fun, something else isn’t fun, [00:51:40] and you start getting more and more honed down and exploring that, and suddenly you find something [00:51:45] that lights your spark. Listen, I didn’t just end up in Peru, I enjoyed surgery, I wanted to do Max. Somebody [00:51:50] went, you got to do medicine. I said, Jesus, I’ll be 52 when I’m a consultant. Not really want to do that. [00:51:55] Let me do perio surgery. I didn’t know it was going to be the one where I get the best time to talk to patients [00:52:00] and behaviour change.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: I mean, it was there, but that was. And then it just happened. When more and more perio I did, [00:52:05] I went, this is fun man. I’m enjoying this interaction and I think young dentists need to do that. If you [00:52:10] don’t enjoy it, leave it for now. Find something you enjoy. Find a practice you enjoy. [00:52:15] You don’t enjoy this practice. Take a step back. Go and try something else. Go into hospital. Do a decent job. [00:52:20] Some of them may be able to. If you can take six months out, go and do volunteering. You know whatever. [00:52:25] Just explore, have fun and [00:52:30] you’ll find out what lights your spark. You know what’s the thing that sparks you your boat [00:52:35] and then just take go with it. Um, and let’s not rush things. You know, 40 [00:52:40] years of your career, did you know you were going to start a company when you graduated as a dentist? No. [00:52:45] Yeah. And you certainly ended up in that journey, you know? Um, yeah. Did I know [00:52:50] I was going to launch tubules? No, I knew I wanted a website. I enjoy having a website. Honest to God, [00:52:55] that’s the fun part. But look where I am. And sometimes you just got to do that. Yeah, I think. [00:53:00] Tell me about the. You know, the reason you’re sitting here now is because you called me to get Tom [00:53:05] Young’s number. You were looking at Tom Young’s. We’ve [00:53:10] had him on the podcast, actually.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: He was a very promising young dentist. And then one day [00:53:15] just decided to leave. And drew was interested in that pivot and [00:53:20] the the thoughts around the pivot. What got you thinking about pivoting? This [00:53:25] a very thought a few years ago when I sort of thought, why does tubules exist? [00:53:30] What’s the problem I’m trying to solve? You know, it goes back to that it [00:53:35] was me first who? You know, when I reached the existential crisis, I asked myself, what’s the problem here? [00:53:40] What’s the thing that I’m trying to solve for myself and was finding something that fulfils me? [00:53:45] I went to tubules, thought, what’s the problem we’re trying to solve here? And I suddenly [00:53:50] realised, we’re helping people grow. We want people to get better. Don’t just take box CPD. Well, [00:53:55] if that’s the case and you want people to grow, then the first thing we’ve got to do is help people find out, [00:54:00] you know, what’s the issue they’re going through, what’s the problem they want to solve, where they want to grow, how are they converting [00:54:05] their obstacles into opportunity? And that pivot made me think that [00:54:10] actually, the base of all of this doesn’t begin from getting good at something. [00:54:15] The base of all of this goes from, what’s the issue I’m trying to address? What’s the obstacle I’m trying to [00:54:20] convert into an opportunity took me into the journey of Nokia and Apple. [00:54:25] I’m not reading into detail, you know, in 2007, nor was it early [00:54:30] 2007.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Nokia was the top company in the world. Nokia [00:54:35] had sales of billions around the world, right? Apple [00:54:40] turned up with an iPhone, and when the iPhone first iPhone launched, people were laughing [00:54:45] at it. They were saying it’s cheap components in that it didn’t have half the functions. It didn’t even have [00:54:50] MMS messaging. Four years later, Nokia [00:54:55] went bust. Apple was driving. The basic question was, Apple said, what’s [00:55:00] the problem we’re solving user experience. Nokia was going, how can [00:55:05] we build a better phone? A better phone? You know, make more features in it. That was interesting. [00:55:10] Fuji and Kodak right. At some point they were selling film. [00:55:15] Kodak went bust. Fuji grew. That was case study. I then went to individual [00:55:20] case studies which were asked Holmes number. Dentistry is in a place now where they’re trying to get [00:55:25] let’s make dentistry better. Let’s just keep going with the dental problem. Dental problem? How [00:55:30] can I do my composites ten times better? 20 times better? But actually, [00:55:35] nobody’s asking what’s the exact base problem we’re trying to solve here? As an issue in psychology [00:55:40] called cognitive entrenchment, you get entrenched into what you do. You get entrenched, so entrenched [00:55:45] into it you don’t want to lose it. So you try and get deeper into that skill. You build that skill deeper and [00:55:50] deeper and deeper. That’s exactly what Kodak and Nokia did. Sometimes you got to step back and go, actually, do [00:55:55] I need to pivot? Do I need to rethink as part of growth? People [00:56:00] are forgetting that now.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Part of this process of figuring your challenge, learning and growing, [00:56:05] is that it’s like, stop just thinking. You need to become better [00:56:10] and better and better at something deeper and deeper. First step back, read. [00:56:15] You know, evaluate. What are you trying to figure out here now? Tom Youngs. [00:56:20] He said he saw this dentist very successful doing really well [00:56:25] in terms of their career. He said. But when I saw him, he [00:56:30] was always not happy. And that’s what he didn’t want. Now, I don’t know if Tom kind of [00:56:35] wants that not out there, but I’ll tell it anyway that that’s what made him change. You know, he was [00:56:40] very talented, but he realised the problem he was trying to solve was in dentistry. [00:56:45] That’s the pivot we talk about every now and then. You kind of can’t keep following the same [00:56:50] journey. Dentistry has got this thing. You graduate, you do your DCT job, you’re then going to practice. [00:56:55] So you get specialised. What should I become? An endodontist? The conversation we’ve had, I’m sort of stopping [00:57:00] and going, don’t follow that linear path. The world is changing at a rapid rate. The plans you make [00:57:05] for tomorrow might be defunct in 24 hours, right? You’ve got to be [00:57:10] able to be adaptable. Flexible. The only way you can do that is you go one step down and go, [00:57:15] what’s the actual obstacle I’m trying to overcome here? That’s the kind of pivot journey that I’m [00:57:20] looking at, and I think people need that more.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: So I did this whole talk, um, on [00:57:25] it, trying to tell people if you continue deepening your skill, [00:57:30] it’s called static growth. If you widen your skills and build a breath [00:57:35] and then deepen some of them, that’s dynamic growth. Dynamic growth makes [00:57:40] you more adaptable for this rapid, changing, unpredictable world. [00:57:45] That’s where winners are born. That’s my thought process there. Interesting. I [00:57:50] mean, what I remember the most from my conversation with Tom [00:57:55] was, and even not my podcast conversation, my actual conversation [00:58:00] when he said he’s leaving dentistry, I was I was pretty, even though I left dentistry myself. And that’s why [00:58:05] he kept on saying. He kept saying, well, you left. Why? Why are you telling me not to? Um, the [00:58:10] I felt like it was a shame. Too early. Too early. Um, but [00:58:15] the thing that stood out for me was he was saying, as a dentist, the [00:58:20] better job you do, the less money you make. [00:58:25] And we all know we’ve seen so many different models, right? [00:58:30] That doesn’t have to be like that. Doesn’t have to be like that. But he had a certain point here [00:58:35] that if you really make sure that rubber dam is stuck on properly and you have to then go [00:58:40] around three times and make sure it’s all proper, or when you when you put that matrix [00:58:45] on to be 100% sure that it’s correctly positioned, you know, [00:58:50] in, in every way, you know, you if you take care of the polishing the distal side [00:58:55] of that seven composite.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, risk cutting [00:59:00] the guy’s cheek to, to get the polish just right. Yeah. Yeah. The more [00:59:05] you obsess on on the work, the fine, the less [00:59:10] the longer it takes. Yeah. And hence the less money you make. And [00:59:15] and we know I know it’s not exactly linear in that way because, you know, Basil [00:59:20] takes care of all of that stuff. Mizrahi. And he makes good money, I’m sure. [00:59:25] Yeah. So you can set it up so that you know, your hourly rate and all that. But there is. It’s [00:59:30] real. There is that. Yeah. I think it depends on, um. It depends. Of course [00:59:35] it depends on your standard. You know, that’s one important thing to note. Yeah. But once you have a certain [00:59:40] standard, you find the people who value that standard. Right. And I think that’s [00:59:45] the thing you got to think. And the trust thing you were talking about, trust the people. If people can feel that that’s the guy [00:59:50] you are, then word of mouth goes berserk, prices go up and so on. You know, and was [00:59:55] it Joe Buck once said, right. He said, he kind of said that, uh, you’re either worth what you’re [01:00:00] paid or you’re paid what you’re worth.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: You know, and I think that’s the key. I’ve [01:00:05] realised one interesting thing over the last few years, um, or thought about interesting [01:00:10] thing is that does the market determine your price, [01:00:15] or does your value determine the market that comes to you? [01:00:20] You know, I don’t know the answer, but that’s probably [01:00:25] something we need to think about here. I think we as a [01:00:30] as a profession in the UK, we do undervalue our time. Hugely, [01:00:35] hugely. And it’s weird. I mean just imagine there’s a non dentist listening to this. And it could be any [01:00:40] number of people can listen to this pod and imagine a member of the public listening to this and says what. [01:00:45] These dentists are driving around in Ferraris now are talking about undervaluing their time, [01:00:50] but it’s real compared to other countries, I find. Yeah, I [01:00:55] think the NHS is a big part of that. Yeah. Um, we definitely [01:01:00] do undervalue our time. But that goes back to what we talk about. The public don’t know what we do [01:01:05] because we’ve never built that trust properly. Right. If they understood that we’re looking after [01:01:10] their health and they understood what we’re doing, and the finesse will help them keep their teeth for the next ten [01:01:15] years, 20 years. All of that, they suddenly go, actually, they’re looking after us. [01:01:20] But instead, what do we do? Listen. Rent alert. But what do we do? We go and self-harm. [01:01:25] The greatest. Give me an award.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Right. All these awards things. Listen, I’m. I might have publicly said it. You’re [01:01:30] not a big fan of the awards, are you? I’m not a fan at all. Because growth. I believe in growth. Growth needs. The first [01:01:35] step of growth is humility. Award doesn’t build humility, right? I’m not a big fan, [01:01:40] but beyond that, we have to stop Self-congratulating [01:01:45] and start going out there and telling the public, we’re in your interest, right? This [01:01:50] is what it is. A patient member of the public walks into a Dental event. [01:01:55] They need to feel these guys are working in my interest. They [01:02:00] care about me. So they go to an educational event, go look at these dentists. They want to get better so [01:02:05] they can look after me. Better not look at these dentists. Look at them. I can’t find a dentist. And they’re busy [01:02:10] here in their black ties, congratulating each other for having the best. Whatever. That’s the first thing. [01:02:15] Second thing is, you can’t compare this stuff, right? Like you can’t compare it. [01:02:20] How do I judge the best when the rules of the game are so vague? Usain Bolt’s the best [01:02:25] runner in the world. Or was the best runner in the world. Because they all had the same starting point. They [01:02:30] had the same ending point. The track was the same. Everything was comparable. Other than Usain Bolt, [01:02:35] as a runner, that’s your ability to judge the best. You can’t do that.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Patients [01:02:40] are variable. Every individuals variable. How do you judge that. So [01:02:45] you can judge it fairly. Is that what you mean you can’t judge. You can’t judge it fairly. Of [01:02:50] course not. Of course not. No. So it’s a bit. Anyway, that’s my job. [01:02:55] It’s a bit misleading, but I think we just got to have that faith in the public. The public trust in [01:03:00] us. You’re famously. I mean, last time I spoke to you, you said similar things about a [01:03:05] war. You don’t like awards. Let’s face it. Um, fine. Um, what else grinds your gears? Come on. We [01:03:10] should have a section of the pod to say what grinds your gears? What pisses you off? Yeah. What pisses you [01:03:15] off about dentistry? You just really listen. The other thing that really drives me nuts. Yes, [01:03:20] you’ve already said we don’t value ourselves. We don’t value our teams. Yeah, [01:03:25] right. I mean, there’s a nursing shortage out there that gets me to. And everyone goes, oh, this, that. My business [01:03:30] can’t pay nurses, for God’s sake. They are the key members of your [01:03:35] team. Yeah. And if you think can’t pay them, build a value for what you do in dentistry so you can reward [01:03:40] them better because your team are a winner. It grinds me. And this is what I said earlier. Practice owners go [01:03:45] like crazy to Dental courses. Yeah. You sit down and go, how many leadership courses do you go to? How many [01:03:50] people management courses do you go to? How many psychology courses do you ultimately leading teams [01:03:55] is management right.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah. But that soft skills. Oh come on you want [01:04:00] to lead a team. You want to build an environment. Step one look after your team. Second [01:04:05] thing, stop thinking dentistry. Start building your trust in patients. Those two changes [01:04:10] might just create that value in dentistry where people sit down and go, [01:04:15] These guys looking after me, I’m going to pay them more. You know my thank you story right where [01:04:20] I. So look, let’s go back ten years. Right. Sorry. Not [01:04:25] ten hundreds of years back. Okay? You used to. You were a farmer. You used to grow potatoes. I was [01:04:30] a farmer. I used to grow corn. So what happened is, uh, I [01:04:35] needed some potatoes. I said, I’ll give you some corn in exchange. Barter. Third guy [01:04:40] comes in, he wants some potatoes, but he goes, I haven’t got any corn to give you. Go, right, [01:04:45] give me some coins instead. So he gave you coins when I was [01:04:50] giving you my corn as a barter. It was my thank you. When [01:04:55] you gave him good potatoes, he gave you coins as a way of saying thank you. [01:05:00] Money is nothing other than a way of saying thank you. So if you [01:05:05] build value in somebody, if somebody feels like genuinely you’ve cared about them, they’ll [01:05:10] be much more grateful. And the way they say thank you is by paying you thank [01:05:15] you notes.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: So now I go to the supermarket. When I do a shop, instead of saying this, I go, I’m just [01:05:20] paying with my card to give them some thank you dollars. That’s a different way of thinking it is now. You [01:05:25] think like that and go. How many patients will genuinely say thank you by paying their bill because [01:05:30] you’ve looked after them? How many nurses will thank you and give you more effort because you’ve looked [01:05:35] after them? Why can’t we change that? That’s a bugbear for me because stop thinking about yourself and your small [01:05:40] dentistry and the nursing side. The nursing side does piss me off to you, right? The [01:05:45] disrespect that some nurses are treated. Yeah. The disrespect, [01:05:50] the lack of progression. Yeah. [01:05:55] In in the DCP side and some, some practices are great at it. [01:06:00] Yeah. They genuinely enjoy seeing the trainee nurse become a nurse, become [01:06:05] a senior nurse, become a treatment coordinator, become practice manager, go and get radiography qualification, [01:06:10] oral health qualification. Go on and become a hygienist, then become a dentist. You [01:06:15] know, like some practices. Love that. But a lot of guys I come across. [01:06:20] And by the way, back to the flipping the burger analogy, there [01:06:25] is a type of person who doesn’t want to progress, you know, wants to come in, do their day [01:06:30] and leave and leave. Yeah. As a nurse, I mean, but but you know, some, some, some [01:06:35] dentists are looking for that character, the kind of character who doesn’t want to be paid any more [01:06:40] and ambitious and all of that.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: I’m cool with that, too. What I’m uncool with [01:06:45] is the hierarchy and disrespect that we see a lot of a lot. But [01:06:50] but I’m going to sort of go the other way. If somebody says that I just want to do my day job, my [01:06:55] job as a leader, inspire them to deliver is to inspire them to find what lights the spark. [01:07:00] Right? Yeah. You’re no longer a dentist once you’re a practice owner. Yeah. You are [01:07:05] a leader. And if somebody’s spark is not being lit by what you do, help them find [01:07:10] that spark. Now. How are you going to do that if you don’t have leadership skills, knowledge, all [01:07:15] of that sort of stuff? So it becomes even more important. And I just feel that [01:07:20] as humans, that’s the basic thing we can do is how can we make someone’s life better [01:07:25] day in, day out? How can we listen if somebody’s not happy, they go home to work. They’ve [01:07:30] used up all their emotional energy at work and they go home. Sorry to their to their family. [01:07:35] That person is going to be stressed. What impact does that have on someone’s family? Your job isn’t giving [01:07:40] someone a job. If you’re a leader, your job is to make sure their life is better. That’s [01:07:45] actually I don’t know if it’s a privilege or a huge responsibility, but that’s me.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: It’s both, [01:07:50] isn’t it? That’s the way I see things. It’s not the easiest job. I’d love to continue the work grinds what [01:07:55] grinds Drew’s gears about perio. Well, listen, what grinds my gear is about perio. [01:08:00] Not enough people think it’s interesting. Listen, man, everyone thinks it’s gum gardening. [01:08:05] The truth is, every course I run, people go is fun because it’s quite exciting. This link between perio [01:08:10] and systemic disease. That’s the association. They’ve been talking about it for 30 years. Exciting. Yeah. Exciting [01:08:15] in that this is the way a lot of dentists are talking about this. Like making the diabetes better by making the [01:08:20] perio better. Yeah. That that way of, you know, affect disease, lifestyle, [01:08:25] you know. So interesting. And but what grinds me. Yeah. What grinds you is that, is that what people [01:08:30] are interested in? Make it exciting. You know, when you know the good guys, the [01:08:35] bad guys. I thought I saw some exciting stuff. Interesting stuff that you said about politics. What grinds your gears about politicians [01:08:40] and politics? Everything. It pisses me off. Listen, man, they make more [01:08:45] promises than deliveries, man. Come on. That’s their day. That’s their job. I don’t think so, man. Come on. Be a [01:08:50] bit more respectful. Just listen. If the money’s running out, just say, look, the money’s running out. Can’t do anything. Um. [01:08:55] I genuinely feel that public trust in politics is probably not at [01:09:00] an all time low.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Not just in the UK, globally. Right. People think politicians are insensitive [01:09:05] to the public. That’s where we’ve got to. Right? Over the years, I’ve got a controversial view on it. Yeah. Tell me. [01:09:10] What do you think? I think politicians should be paid way, way more money. Like much more money. Like, [01:09:15] if you’re an MP, you’re one of 600. Yeah. You should be paid many times [01:09:20] more than a hospital consultant. Yeah. Put a figure £500,000. [01:09:25] Yeah. Prime minister? I’d say 2 million. £3 million? Yeah. What [01:09:30] I’m saying is, if you’re a top brain who’s just come out of Oxford PPE, whatever. Yeah. And your [01:09:35] choice is Morgan Stanley or JP Morgan, whatever. You know banks? Yeah. [01:09:40] If you’re talented enough, you should think, hey, I’m going to go become an MP and it’s not going to [01:09:45] affect my income. Yeah. Number one. Number two, you pay them 60 [01:09:50] grand or whatever they get paid. Yeah. Now they’re going to have to be corrupt in order [01:09:55] to run a life. Yeah. So you’re not have to be. But that’s ridiculous. They’re much [01:10:00] more incentivised. They’re incentivised to corruption. And I come [01:10:05] from Kenya. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Politicians are paid more than politicians [01:10:10] anywhere in the world, I think. Oh, really? Really? Last time I looked, it’s still corrupt. They’re [01:10:15] paid like equivalent of, I can’t remember millions of dollars in that country. Millions of dollars plus salaries [01:10:20] or salary.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: When they get benefits, then they can buy for four wheel drive. You know, big Land Cruisers [01:10:25] here, the petrol there. Guess what? It’s still not great. So listen, [01:10:30] I grinds my boat, I think. Look, once you’re put in a position of responsibility as a leader, [01:10:35] this is all back to leadership. Yeah. You really realise servant leadership is the way [01:10:40] you know. And the minute you become self-serving and start thinking about yourself, you’re no longer serving. [01:10:45] You’re put in that position to do other stuff, right. Simon Sinek talks about Leaders Eat last. [01:10:50] That’s the cultural issue we have globally. And the reason they probably do that is because [01:10:55] part of it is, well, if I don’t, um, make what’s it called, populist [01:11:00] policies, I’m not going to be voted in. Right. Saying the truth is not going to help everybody, [01:11:05] right? People are going to go, Jesus, if I give my kid some candy, take it away from [01:11:10] him. That guy’s going to call me nasty, right? That’s the challenge we’ve had. How do you change [01:11:15] that? I don’t know. I think you could pay them 500 grand, but those who are inclined [01:11:20] to be corrupt are still going to be corrupt. What can we do to change that? I don’t know, change [01:11:25] a culture change. I think it all comes from education. But, you know, like, maybe I’m being oversimplistic [01:11:30] about this year where we had two people to choose from and both were terrible.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: And [01:11:35] like recently, Trump or Biden. Yeah. Who knows about Harris? Yeah, but Trump or Biden? Boris [01:11:40] or Jeremy? What was his name? Corbin. Corbin. Yeah. Like. Like [01:11:45] Boris or Corbin. Like two awful choices. Trump or Biden. Two awful choices. And [01:11:50] okay, we can we can go into the sort of sociopolitical sort of conspiracy [01:11:55] side of that, too, right? Um, but very simplistically, [01:12:00] great people don’t want to be politicians. Yeah, maybe. Maybe I’ve just come [01:12:05] down to the pay. And there’s so much more to it than the pay. Yeah, it’s a tough job, right? It’s [01:12:10] a the pressure, the public. I mean, and to say the truth isn’t easy. Now it’s [01:12:15] complex. There’s no right answer to anything, right? I mean, the complexity is a very interesting phenomenon [01:12:20] in itself. I’ve just finished a book called Embracing Complexity. Um, you read that and you go, wow, [01:12:25] you know, there’s so many factors and you can never make everyone happy. Tough job. That tough job to [01:12:30] to play that middle ground. And I think the more pressure going on a lot of people going [01:12:35] I can’t be arsed with this. Um, you know, someone like Obama handled so many different facets [01:12:40] so well. I respect the guy. He’s he’s a good communicator. He was a good orator, all of that. We [01:12:45] need to develop more people like this. So I suppose I, you know, I complain about leadership in dentistry, [01:12:50] but actually this leadership issue is a global phenomenon.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: We’re getting bold leaders, [01:12:55] by the way. There’s dental politics too, right? Yeah, there’s all of that politics too. And [01:13:00] you know what? Leadership. Have you ever thought about that? You know what? You’re not interested. Not [01:13:05] really. Because what? Leadership is making sure [01:13:10] everyone’s sailing in the same direction. I said this in the first podcast. [01:13:15] I talked about Martin Luther King saying, I have a dream. Actually, it was a dream of everybody [01:13:20] there because everyone is looking at the same vision. Yeah. I think until [01:13:25] we don’t create that compelling vision as a profession, we’re going to be stuck because [01:13:30] we’re all rowing in different directions. You know, one person is rowing in this direction going, I want to build the best NHS [01:13:35] practice because I believe in the NHS and that elimination system. Another one is rowing in this [01:13:40] direction, going, I want to build a private practice because this one’s going this way. Going. I want to build a practice where [01:13:45] I become, I don’t know, Invisalign, platinum, whatever. You can’t build politics in that. You’ve [01:13:50] got to find a way to bring the whole profession together. It goes back to what I said. We’ve got to think [01:13:55] about the patient first. If any argument you put in front of me, Any [01:14:00] any reason you put in front of me? If your reason for doing stuff eventually [01:14:05] boils down to, it’s going to help that patient for the next long term.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: I think [01:14:10] when we are all thinking like that, I think we might have a better way to go through that. I [01:14:15] was talking about the other, you know, five years ago, ten years ago, I was talking about the fact that the BDA continued [01:14:20] to engage with the government and hoping they’ll pay more money. Ten years on, [01:14:25] we’re still. Same story. It’s not going to be any more money. It’s not going to be no money. So why [01:14:30] don’t we as a profession think, okay, I want to look after the patient. This [01:14:35] avenue isn’t going to work. This kind of growth isn’t going to work. This kind of journey isn’t going to work. Why [01:14:40] don’t we think about a different way? Why don’t we think outside the box? Another [01:14:45] example I give you, right. Few practices I know couldn’t recruit associates [01:14:50] on a percentage basis. We know that’s another problem in the industry. While we’re recording this, [01:14:55] they didn’t go for the conventional associate 45%, [01:15:00] and I have all the gimmicks and everything else. They went different. The the direction they took was [01:15:05] where great caring practice. Do you want to care for your patients? Come work for us as an apprentice. [01:15:10] As a salaried apprentice, yeah. 2 or 3 years of that built them [01:15:15] to the to what they needed for their practice in terms of the, the personality, [01:15:20] the work they do now, their associates and the practice owners say they’re flying. Now, maybe [01:15:25] we need to start thinking out of the box a bit more.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Um, and that sort of stuff that [01:15:30] only comes if you care enough for what you’re doing. And I put that out there. Right? People go, what the hell does he mean? [01:15:35] I care about somebody. You know what? When my kid says he wants something at [01:15:40] 3:00 at night, I’m knackered as hell sometimes and I’ll care enough to go. You [01:15:45] know what? I’ll go get it because it’s my kid. You know what I mean? Like, sometimes you go over and beyond. [01:15:50] Yeah. Of course. That’s when things change. I don’t know if that’s my bit anyway. Yeah. [01:15:55] I mean, this is such a broad spectrum of people, [01:16:00] right? Yeah. And, and and the question of the health of our profession [01:16:05] right now, I’d say it’s in some of the best state that it’s ever been [01:16:10] and some of the worst state at the same time, you know, because I mean, for [01:16:15] the first time ever, dentistry is on the news and everything, but for the wrong reason. It’s [01:16:20] it’s like access to NHS dentists. Uh, GA for [01:16:25] kids. Yeah, but it’s for the first time ever, it’s actually a bit on the political [01:16:30] agenda. And, hey, we get Nilesh and Rona and Simon and all these dentists on TV [01:16:35] talking, which didn’t used to be the case. Didn’t used to be the case ten years ago. Yeah. So we’re, [01:16:40] you know, we’re on it now for the first time ever.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: We’ve got I [01:16:45] kind of infiltrating from your perspective. There’s things [01:16:50] like Pearl, did you see the robot that made a filling on a patient? Right. I mean, we’re [01:16:55] seeing that. We’re seeing that. And no, none of us can really know where that’s going to go, [01:17:00] but it’s going to go in a in an interesting direction. And [01:17:05] I think like we get associates now young right out of people [01:17:10] who are saying, I want to work three days a week. Yeah. Yeah. Lifestyle kind of. [01:17:15] Yeah. The other two days I want to do what I want to do. Yeah. I want to do two days a week of [01:17:20] only a line. Bleach blonde. I’m a now. Yeah. Yeah. I bet you didn’t like that. Um, [01:17:25] but but I kind of like that. I kind of like the fact that actually, [01:17:30] we’ve got to a point where people can say that. Yeah. Yeah. And not everyone has to, [01:17:35] you know, work their butt off six days a week and break themselves. Yeah. In the [01:17:40] process. Yeah. It’s not for everyone, dude. Yeah. Like you said on the last pod, I remember you said you go to bed at 3 [01:17:45] a.m. and you wake up at 6 a.m.. Yeah. Yeah. Some level of obsession. Yeah. [01:17:50] But, like, it goes back to what I said. Everyone. Not for everyone. But until something doesn’t light your spark, you [01:17:55] might not do that, right? No, I agree, I agree.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Um, that’s one thing. Um, but the other side of the coin [01:18:00] is that dentistry, like you say, is in the best place. But yet 50% of the population [01:18:05] are not able to see a dentist. Now, the conversation here [01:18:10] is, is very interesting. Are they, you know, are they not able to see a dentist or are they not able to see an [01:18:15] NHS dentist? Now that’s a different conversation. Um, but but it’s a funny thing because [01:18:20] in this country, people have not saved up for their teeth. [01:18:25] Yeah. And there’s no insurance to help out. And there’s a there’s a sort of national [01:18:30] insurance, right. Yeah. So but in the US, people know that. I don’t know. I’ve got to save [01:18:35] up for college. I’ve got to save up for the kids braces or whatever. And it’s part of [01:18:40] the psyche. Everyone knows that. Yeah. Because everyone knows that jobs have [01:18:45] insurance that you can extend to your kids, dental insurance that you can [01:18:50] extend. That’s why people go for those jobs. I mean, I had a guy in one of our partners, our suppliers, [01:18:55] um, in the US, saying, the only reason I’m working in this company is. Well, no, the [01:19:00] reason why I’m happy working in this company is because the company my wife works in [01:19:05] gives us medical insurance for both of us, and I’m. I’m going to retire soon. What [01:19:10] I’m saying is that the setup. Yes. Is that way. So you can’t overnight here say, [01:19:15] hey, everyone should start saving for their teeth.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: But you can’t because the jobs don’t pay dental [01:19:20] insurance. People aren’t used to saving up for their teeth. So there has to be some sort of gradual [01:19:25] education piece. If there’s no more money coming from the government, of course, spend the money they’re sending [01:19:30] to us in a better way, in a more effective way. Maybe it’s a core service. Maybe [01:19:35] people have like vouchers they can take to any dentist that’s worth money or whatever [01:19:40] it is. Yeah, yeah. But understand that the setup in the nation [01:19:45] isn’t one it’s always been. Yeah. You know, but it’s not just dentistry, is it? It’s all of healthcare. [01:19:50] You know, at the moment, if you think about generally wider health. [01:19:55] Nhs has always been the primary provider. Yeah. If [01:20:00] that collapsed today, do we have an alternative service? No. There’s a hole in the middle. There’s. There are [01:20:05] private hospitals, but the limited number one, there’s not enough structures to do it. You’re right. It’s [01:20:10] going to take time, I suppose. And but we do have to accept that the NHS [01:20:15] is, is going to be limited. There’s no doubt about that. There’s no endless [01:20:20] pot. How we transform it is what we’ve got to think, you know. But also let’s put this in perspective [01:20:25] for dentistry. My wife is a neonatologist, right. She’s a neonatologist. [01:20:30] Newborn babies. Yeah. And I was I was sitting in a light-hearted manner.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: But [01:20:35] she comes home and goes, we lost a baby today. Now, I was I was about to tell her I lost a lower right first [01:20:40] molar, but it doesn’t make sense now. Right. And does not compare, you know. And that’s part of the dental challenge. [01:20:45] The dental challenge is it’s it’s it’s important. But in the wider perspective [01:20:50] of things, it’s critical. You know, it’s it’s we’re helping people [01:20:55] do things, but we’re not going to lose a life that easily. I mean, there’s [01:21:00] still risk, you know, someone gets a chlorine gas, all these jars on kids, right? And [01:21:05] so finding that balance is so important. Um, in the profession, I want to touch [01:21:10] on two other things. Yeah. Number one, why is this the last ever Congress that you’re [01:21:15] doing? Yeah. And are you going out with a bang? I mean, when I looked at [01:21:20] this, um, last, last year at the number of events you had [01:21:25] on in that one event. Man. Yeah. I could not believe [01:21:30] how big that that was. Um, so. So around the Congress. What’s [01:21:35] going on there? And the other one I want to touch on, I don’t know if you’re interested in touching on is, [01:21:40] uh, the race riots. Yeah. With your experience in Kenya? [01:21:45] Yeah. Do you want to talk about that or. No? Yeah. Let’s do one or the other first. To the [01:21:50] Congress? Yeah. Um, last year we had 600 delegates. Right. [01:21:55] Huge. Amazing.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: I think we have a changing market, a changing place. [01:22:00] And we spoke about this earlier. You know, how do people market courses? Or you say [01:22:05] we do CPD, we do this. Right. You can’t market the emotional aspect of an event. [01:22:10] That’s right. Now when people come to the Congress, they go out and [01:22:15] I get messages saying, drew, I’ve been to realised, you know, I’m walking on clouds. We change [01:22:20] someone’s spirit, we fix them. It feels like sometimes. But [01:22:25] the effort that goes into that is huge. Do you run 36 workshops? [01:22:30] 36 workshops. Man, that’s like bigger than BCD, [01:22:35] right? It’s bigger than a CD. It’s so it’s [01:22:40] so huge. And and you know in the package we give them workshops. [01:22:45] We give them top global lecturers DDC or whatever, Joanna or whoever. [01:22:50] We give them accommodation, we put some serious parties there. [01:22:55] We put a tubular. Foundation event ave to the top level, Ave to the top [01:23:00] level. You’ve seen the stage. It’s a beautiful process. All of that is [01:23:05] for the people who come there. I want to make sure they don’t just go with knowledge. [01:23:10] I want to make sure they go with some inspiration. If I could bottle that, I’d sell [01:23:15] it, you know, that sort of thing. But also, there’s also scientific if you inspire someone to learn more. But [01:23:20] what I’m beginning to find is getting harder and harder. Yeah, there’s people don’t want to invest [01:23:25] in that sort of thing in dentistry anymore.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: They want to go course, learn something and go home. [01:23:30] It goes back to if you don’t care enough to feel inspired, you’re going to be in a difficult place. And [01:23:35] I think the profession is losing its soul at some level. And so I felt we need [01:23:40] to change things. Also, global dynamics running this event is getting more and [01:23:45] more expensive. Costs are rising. Cost of living for everyone is harder. So I understand [01:23:50] people can’t contribute to this. So we have to do things differently. Um it’s reached [01:23:55] its everything has a has a has an end at the end of the day. Events a funny cause funny [01:24:00] things here. Because because the the benefit is huge, right? There’s there’s nothing [01:24:05] really like face to face, right? But nothing really is like. But from [01:24:10] a corporate, from a company perspective, the risk and pain of [01:24:15] the event. Yeah. Nowhere near reflects the profit. [01:24:20] Oh no, we don’t make profit on it. Yeah. So so so then I [01:24:25] imagine with you guys, you have to work two years ahead to book a year, right? Yeah. [01:24:30] You can’t book to DC the day after tomorrow. So when if you’re thinking [01:24:35] of like if someone’s thinking of an event in 2026. Yeah. Where you’re [01:24:40] having to take a massive risk on a venue, then you’re having to take a massive [01:24:45] trying to get speakers all the time. And so it’s two years of worry. Yeah. [01:24:50] Yeah.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: And but the return on it is undefinable in financial terms, [01:24:55] right? I mean, it’s a different return, whereas your core business [01:25:00] is not two years of worry. Every time you do something, you’re growing it. Yeah. I mean, look, there’s two types [01:25:05] of ROI. So the Congress. You’re right. The return on investment is uncertain. Yeah. [01:25:10] But the return on inspiration is always. And that’s the ROI, right? So. So that’s the key. [01:25:15] But I just feel we we’re changing. And look it goes back to what I said. The mark. There’s more courses [01:25:20] out there than ever. There’s more elements out there than ever. So rather than us building [01:25:25] events, we’d rather partner with other events. If we are creating a platform with all this AI [01:25:30] that helps somebody find their challenges, we can partner with events and pipeline people to them [01:25:35] and create, you know, let’s make a bigger pie. I’ve always said, rather than fight for the same pie. [01:25:40] So, so build a wider table, that sort of thing. So I think that’s where we want to go. Um, [01:25:45] that’s one of those thought processes. The other side is I think knowledge [01:25:50] has matured. So people now roughly know [01:25:55] the kind of knowledge they want. They want to go to those particular events, in which case [01:26:00] we can create niche events. Right. And take the tubules philosophy to Amsterdam, Barcelona, [01:26:05] you know, around the world. 32. Besides wanting to learn Dental business from [01:26:10] someone outside of dentistry, right? Let’s go to a different location [01:26:15] and enjoy it in that respect.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: So that’s the kind of thing we’re going to do if we’re going to do stuff [01:26:20] like that. Nice. But a lot of focus is about this dynamic growth. [01:26:25] I just want people to adopt it and grow and get better and better and better be better tomorrow [01:26:30] than you were yesterday. And if we can put someone in that cycle, it’s a mindset. It’s about [01:26:35] building that growth mindset where nobody stops. Listen, I’m a geek at heart. I’m a learner at heart. I’m [01:26:40] always learning. And I just want, you know, people to be thinking like that because [01:26:45] it’s only going to help them in, in this rapidly changing [01:26:50] world. To me, you’ve just identified what happens tomorrow cannot [01:26:55] be predicted. You have to be learning, preparing, thinking like that. Talking [01:27:00] about what happens tomorrow cannot be predicted. It’s exactly what happened in [01:27:05] the riots. Yeah, let’s talk about it. So, I mean, whenever anyone’s listening to this right [01:27:10] now, we’re in a stage where we just got out of a week of disturbance, [01:27:15] race related disturbance in the UK. I was actually in Spain and I [01:27:20] wasn’t paying much attention to the UK news. And I came back and I was like, what the hell’s going on here, man? [01:27:25] Now, with your history in Kenya, where, I mean, Kenya didn’t really [01:27:30] have as big a problem as some other places like Uganda and all that.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: But the understanding [01:27:35] for me, this question of whether or not these are being fanned by [01:27:40] conspiratorial, you know, all of that piece. Yeah. The social media piece is fanning [01:27:45] these things, misinformation and all that. For me, there’s almost [01:27:50] a discontent that doesn’t have a voice. It [01:27:55] got its voice in Brexit. Yeah. And essentially something about [01:28:00] um, overall, let’s face it, Brexit was about immigration overall. [01:28:05] Yeah. Something about sort of sort of, uh, people being told there’s national [01:28:10] myths, isn’t it? We tell ourselves the story, you know. And one of the stories that people have been told [01:28:15] here is, you know, we beat the Germans in the war and so on. Some of that in it. But that [01:28:20] itself is an immigration story. But what I’m saying is this voice needs needs an [01:28:25] amount of understanding and an amount of vocalising [01:28:30] rather than us sitting here saying, oh, that’s a bigot. Who’s done that? Yeah. All [01:28:35] right. Great. Yeah. What is it? What’s the actual concern that [01:28:40] that that that person to what we keep saying. What’s the real problem? The real what’s the real problem? The real problem. [01:28:45] And then the solution. So that’s that’s my view. So, so so that’s my thoughts on it. [01:28:50] If you what do you think? Go back to listening to Jonah Berger, a social psychologist [01:28:55] influence. He talks about influence and marketing. Yeah. He’s brilliant right. Catalyst. Very [01:29:00] good catalyst. Yeah. You know, when he talks about humans being a Brexit, that [01:29:05] was was um, the phrase of Brexit, uh, get Britain back [01:29:10] or something, right.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. And initially it was um, uh, just two words [01:29:15] and they said Dominic Cummings put this thing called get control, get control, get [01:29:20] back control. Yeah. He put the word back in between. Now humans are loss [01:29:25] averse. If you’ve got something and you lose it, you really feel bad by [01:29:30] saying get back control. What he made them do is what you’d lost. We’re going to get back. Now. That made [01:29:35] them feel good. Yeah. So if you think when I grew up in Kenya, there was a [01:29:40] lot of racism against people with, uh, brown [01:29:45] skin to say anything else, Indian origin. And that was because years [01:29:50] ago, Indian people came from India, settled in Kenya. A [01:29:55] lot of them were part of the business community thinking economically, built up massive [01:30:00] enterprises. So as a part of this was economic envy, because when [01:30:05] you’re on the breadline and someone’s you know really well, you don’t. And some of those Indians did not [01:30:10] treat the Africans with the respect they deserve. Right. And so it became a them [01:30:15] and us. Yeah. And only now, after years of all of this, people are realising, [01:30:20] actually these guys are part of our country. They’re contributing. And so only only about [01:30:25] ten years ago were the Indians recognised as the 53rd tribe of Kenya. [01:30:30] Right. So nearly eight years after after independence, they’ve [01:30:35] thought, oh, they’re a tribe.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: They’re one of us. How many years have Indians been going to Kenya? They were brought in 1898. [01:30:40] You’re kidding. To build a railway. Is that right? So there’s. You know, there’s 150 [01:30:45] year history. I didn’t realise they went back that far. Huge. But just think it took 140 [01:30:50] years for them to. Now when you look at the UK, there’s a group of people who’ve [01:30:55] always been here and now we have international people, largely [01:31:00] British Raj as well, you know, coming in. There’s always going to be that as humans, [01:31:05] as humans, we’re always going to feel threatened at one level and the second level, [01:31:10] we’re always going to be tribal. Yeah. Right. And if someone comes and takes over my tribe, I’m going [01:31:15] to feel a bit. And there is discontent, and we need to [01:31:20] sit down with people who are not content and say, what’s the issue here? How are you feeling? [01:31:25] Threatened. What’s the concern here? Well, make them feel safe. The concern [01:31:30] is number one here. I’m not getting any improvement [01:31:35] in my life. Yeah, but from from this globalism that’s come [01:31:40] about. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. And and you know at the end of the day if, if, [01:31:45] if you’re privileged enough to have gone to dental school. Yeah. You got some benefit [01:31:50] from the global system. Yeah. Whether it’s investment in the UK from Toyota in [01:31:55] Sunderland or whatever it was. Yeah. Like Britain got got better and you benefited [01:32:00] from it.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Yeah. A bunch of people didn’t. Yeah. A good portion of society didn’t [01:32:05] feel like they they got no benefit. Yeah. Now these guys are coming [01:32:10] over on the boats and being paid to stay in a hotel. Yeah. And think of [01:32:15] the poor guy. I mean, I think of two, two, three characters in particular. There’s number one. Yeah. [01:32:20] The guy who’s run away from Syria. Finally got himself to the UK in some boarding [01:32:25] house. That’s crap. Now he’s got people burning the place. You know, a lot [01:32:30] of the guys who died in Grenfell were Syrian refugees. Yeah. But number two character. [01:32:35] Yeah. Mohammed the Uber driver. Yeah. Who now has to worry [01:32:40] about every single passenger sticking a knife in his back? Yeah. And he’s still got to go to work and he still got [01:32:45] to pay his bills. And number three. Yeah. Kevin, the white van driver. [01:32:50] Poor guy. Who’s not a racist. Yeah. Who’s just a great guy. Has to now worry that [01:32:55] every time drew looks at him, he’s worried that he is a racist. Yeah. Because of his tattoos? [01:33:00] Yes. And the discontent that that breeds in a country that six months [01:33:05] ago had an Indian prime minister, for God’s sake. Yeah. Or Indian origin? Yeah. You know, his [01:33:10] parents came. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So it’s weird because I always thought of this country as a [01:33:15] massive success in multiculturalism, I still do. Still is.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Still is. I still do. But this spill-over, [01:33:20] we do need to create more integration and listening and order. [01:33:25] You know, I’ve always said so, you know, I was [01:33:30] an immigrant at some level, right? I came to this country as a student. But what really was interesting [01:33:35] was that everyone should listen to your story. Everyone should listen to the last episode, the last [01:33:40] episode, the last episode, which was tell me the the time 2019 2019. It was released in March [01:33:45] 2020. Um, yeah. But I think that the thing I think is so [01:33:50] important is by default, I was integrated into British community. [01:33:55] Yeah. By going to university, being exposed to different cultures, being exposed [01:34:00] to different people, working in that shopping centre, working in that shopping centre, you know, all that stuff [01:34:05] and selling burgers. And the real important part is these refugees [01:34:10] have come here, they’ve run away from some challenge and [01:34:15] they’re stuck in some hotel. Maybe we need to integrate them somehow and [01:34:20] integrate them, maybe with some of these people who are extreme racist. Now there’s a have you [01:34:25] ever heard of the Green Room? Israel and Palestine have a massive war at the moment, but the tensions have been for years. [01:34:30] I think it was called the Green Room as an experiment. It’s also in the catalyst. So ten [01:34:35] Israeli children and ten Palestine children were brought into a house to live together. [01:34:40] Now they started hating each other on day one. [01:34:45]

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Day two, they come down. One guy goes, listen, do you want some breakfast? And by [01:34:50] day ten they’re like, oh, they’re not as bad as I thought. Actually, they’re not the troublemakers. [01:34:55] We need to find methods of creating green rooms and social cohesion, [01:35:00] you know, because that’s where we understand that beyond someone’s colour and beyond [01:35:05] someone’s challenges is a human being who shares the same kindness, same [01:35:10] compassion, same emotions and same pain as me. Yeah. So the opposite of what [01:35:15] I’m afraid that the Tories did. Yeah. The I don’t know what they call [01:35:20] it a dog whistle or whatever, you know, like. Yes. The opposite of that. Yeah, [01:35:25] the opposite of populism and blaming everyone’s problems on on the. Do you [01:35:30] remember back in the day it was like single mums, single mums, they get the houses. [01:35:35] They’ve just got it. All you got to do these days have children and that’s what you get a house, you get a life. [01:35:40] The trauma. Yeah. That used to be the thing. There’s a labelling back then, back then, now it’s [01:35:45] become this. So what is the opposite? I think the opposite is dog whistling lecture. [01:35:50] How how humans. Yeah. How how do we do it? Me and you get it. Yeah. [01:35:55] Because we know 100 people who’ve been through that nightmare, and we know who they are. Yeah, but [01:36:00] politically, they need to create leadership of cohesion, I feel. And [01:36:05] the opposite of that is saying, listen, we’ve got someone here who’s come from a different country still, [01:36:10] you know, waiting for their refugee status to be verified.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: The asylum status, I don’t know what you call [01:36:15] it. Let’s go and show them something. Let’s show them what Britain’s about, right? As a country. [01:36:20] Um, and two people go there, right? Let’s say Kevin and, uh, whatever [01:36:25] the other example, maybe they go and talk to these guys. Ultimately, human barriers are broken [01:36:30] through conversation and meeting face to face. People have conversations go, wow, that’s interesting. [01:36:35] I mean, I’ll give you a perfectly different example, I suppose. Not perfect, but in [01:36:40] Kenya, um, there’s homophobia and it’s illegal to be gay. [01:36:45] Gay. And when I came to the UK, I didn’t know how to handle that. [01:36:50] I didn’t know how to handle that because of that, when I had gay friends and colleagues, [01:36:55] I didn’t know how to connect with them. Right. I moved to Welshpool and [01:37:00] one of the dentists worked. My practice was was a gay man who was nearly 50 [01:37:05] at that time. So he’s obviously faced those challenges growing up. And he was telling me all that changed [01:37:10] my entire perception. I suddenly saw her human being. And because you’ve been conditioned [01:37:15] in Kenya, I’ve had this before. I was in Dubai, I was talking to a taxi driver from Pakistan [01:37:20] and uh, he said, I came to Dubai and I realised the world’s a great place. He told [01:37:25] me that, um, when I was Abu Dhabi.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Sorry, not Dubai, Abu Dhabi this year. So when I grew up in [01:37:30] Pakistan, they used to teach me that these people are the bad guys. And it’s like, if I saw one, I wanted [01:37:35] to kind of beat them up. He said, I come here and I realise actually we’re all humans. You know, at the [01:37:40] end of the day, I think there’s a lot to be said for social integration, so don’t put dog [01:37:45] whistles, people. Instead, try and connect them together. The more we create human connections, [01:37:50] I just think we’re going to break more barriers down because we realise that yes, your beliefs are different to me, [01:37:55] but you’re a nice person. We can choose to disagree while [01:38:00] still agreeing that we’ll look after each other. What a good place to be that would be. We’ve come [01:38:05] to the end of our time. I know it’s been great. We’ve taken loads of conversations. I’ve really enjoyed it. I always [01:38:10] enjoy talking to you man, and I’m really happy I had you on again. Um, massive, [01:38:15] massive. Good luck with the new site. Thank you. And, uh, let’s have you on in another five [01:38:20] years? Yeah. 20, 28, I’ll tell you. See you in the Cayman Islands. In the Cayman Islands? [01:38:25] Yes. Will enlighten. And tubules may have been bought by the same investor by then or something, [01:38:30] right? No. It’s always fun to see great stuff. So thank you. Lovely to see you, my buddy. Thanks. [01:38:35]

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:38:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:38:45] Your hosts Payman Langroudi [01:38:50] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, [01:38:55] you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually [01:39:00] sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m [01:39:05] assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [01:39:10] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it [01:39:15] too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Levi Levenfiche: Oh my God, we’re going to go on Dragons Den. This is amazing. And the next question was obviously when [00:00:05] when is the airing or when is the filming. It was a I [00:00:10] think it was a Friday and they said it’s on Thursday. So we had essentially 5 or 6 days. Oh my goodness. [00:00:15] And I was going for the work trip. And so and at this point we had no grasp of our numbers [00:00:20] or the business plan or anything. It was just like three of us going at it. We had a couple. We had one [00:00:25] employee or two employees. We had no idea what we were doing. We were just trying to grow. And [00:00:30] we basically sat in a boardroom for three days and kind of worked out our numbers. I was calling my friends [00:00:35] who were working at KPMG as accountants being like, what is, what’s the profit if like if [00:00:40] this is our revenue and this is our what’s our margin as.

Payman Langroudi: One of the best pitches [00:00:45] ever, though.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:55] is mind movers. Moving the conversation forward on [00:01:00] mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts [00:01:05] Rhona Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Hello [00:01:10] everyone! Welcome to another episode of Mind Movers. Today we [00:01:15] have a budding entrepreneur who I had the pleasure of meeting at a founders dinner. Levi [00:01:20] Levenfish, who is one of the co-founders of Perfect Ted, a company that produces [00:01:25] Europe’s first matcha powered energy drinks. For those of you that are watching on YouTube, [00:01:30] you can see Paiman’s got it right in front of him. The business was created alongside his brother Teddy and his [00:01:35] wife. Is it Marissa? That’s correct. Yeah. That’s correct. Great. And [00:01:40] ultimately, they had a mission to provide a natural, clean alternative to typical energy drinks using matcha [00:01:45] as the primary ingredient. Levi is an extremely successful [00:01:50] entrepreneur who inspired me during our dinner, and I thought it’d be incredible to hear about his journey, because I [00:01:55] know a lot of dentists want to know about how you get to where you have got to, especially at your age. You [00:02:00] very kindly said that me and Payman were entrepreneurs, were on different generations. But you know, it took [00:02:05] us a little bit longer. But I’m really looking forward to delving into your journey, so welcome.

Levi Levenfiche: Thank you for having me. [00:02:10]

Rhona Eskander: Amazing. So I always like to start from the beginning, and I know you told me, but I want [00:02:15] my audience to hear. So let’s talk a little bit about your backgrounds, where you grew up and what [00:02:20] you were doing before the brand was founded.

Levi Levenfiche: Yeah, cool. So I grew up in [00:02:25] north London, north west London. Same. I’m local. Um, not [00:02:30] that exciting of a childhood. Um. Went to UK’s rival school to Payman. He was at Highgate [00:02:35] and I guess grew up healthy playing football. I’m one of four [00:02:40] boys, um, very close to my brothers. Um, one lives in the US now. [00:02:45] One is my co-founder and the other one actually just moved to the US last week, so we’re very close family. [00:02:50] Um, I moved to the US when I was 18. I didn’t know [00:02:55] anyone there, but I got into Penn in Philadelphia and it was [00:03:00] an amazing opportunity, chiefly because it’s a great school, but also because my parents didn’t go to university. [00:03:05] And so growing up, the whole thing was education, education, education opportunities that they didn’t have. [00:03:10] They wanted me to take up. So I went to the US at 18, studied there [00:03:15] for four years, worked in New York for a year, didn’t get my visa, got deported, moved [00:03:20] back to the UK, Covid hit. At this point I was long distance with my then girlfriend, [00:03:25] now wife Marissa. She was in New York, she’s American. I was in London, and [00:03:30] during Covid she decided to move over and do a masters at Imperial. She moved in to. [00:03:35] I was living with my brother Teddy, who was also my co-founder, and we had such a good setup, [00:03:40] Bachelor pad. It was just I mean, obviously I wasn’t single, but it was epic. Yeah. And [00:03:45] it was just the two of us and we were just like during Covid, just a great time.

Rhona Eskander: Um, [00:03:50] basically you were having parties without anyone knowing why?

Levi Levenfiche: No comment. [00:03:55] But, um, Marissa moved, which was amazing. [00:04:00] We’re very excited about her moving, but it came with like 12 suitcases of clothes and shit, [00:04:05] and that kind of changed everything. So no more partying or [00:04:10] undercover partying. And, um. Marissa started her masters at Imperial. [00:04:15] Teddy was working for Bain as a management consultant, and I was working [00:04:20] at the time in real estate, private equity, and we were all working from [00:04:25] home. Marissa was working kind of part from home, part at Imperial, and we [00:04:30] started the business at our kitchen table.

Rhona Eskander: I love that before we delve into the business, [00:04:35] there’s a few things that I’ve picked up on which I think were really interesting, that your parents came [00:04:40] from a background of not having gone to university, but were very keen for you to go to university. Why [00:04:45] do you think that was? I mean, did they they did they struggle when they were growing up, and [00:04:50] did they feel that they were perhaps not given enough opportunities because they didn’t go to university [00:04:55] 100%.

Levi Levenfiche: So my grandparents came here as Holocaust survivors with nothing and [00:05:00] nothing beyond nothing. And so there wasn’t even the opportunity [00:05:05] to go to school, even though my parents are wicked smart. My mum in particular is a genius and she actually works [00:05:10] for the business now, which is amazing. Um, both of them could have gone to university. Um, [00:05:15] but they just didn’t have the opportunities to do so. My mum had to leave school [00:05:20] and support family, and my dad left school at 16. Um, but I think [00:05:25] as a result of that, and in the world we live in today, it’s very different to how they were decades ago. I [00:05:30] think they really wanted us to be, um, educated in ways that they never had the opportunity [00:05:35] to be. So they always push education first, and they never, ever, [00:05:40] um, shied away from giving us opportunities in education, whether it’s through sport or whether it was at [00:05:45] school. It was always like education first, which is probably quite a Jewish trait. And I [00:05:50] think you see the same in Asian families too.

Rhona Eskander: I’m Middle Eastern.

Levi Levenfiche: And Middle Eastern families.

Payman Langroudi: What did your parents do? [00:05:55]

Levi Levenfiche: Uh, my dad is in real estate property, and my mom [00:06:00] raised four crazy boys, and that was it. And she does a lot of charity work. And now, [00:06:05] for the first time in 31 years, they’re empty nesters, and they live [00:06:10] in the same house we grew up in. But they have a lot more freedom now, probably financial [00:06:15] freedom, but also freedom to move around the world and do things that they couldn’t as parents of four boys. [00:06:20] But my mom’s job was probably the hardest job ever, because she just had [00:06:25] four boys running around the house doing a million different things. Breaking bones. Um, [00:06:30] not really breaking hearts, but breaking bones.

Rhona Eskander: I’m sure there were some heartbreaks. [00:06:35]

Payman Langroudi: Did you always think you were going to start a business and or was [00:06:40] there this idea that you were just going to go through the corporate ladder and something changed?

Levi Levenfiche: It’s an interesting [00:06:45] question because when you go into education. Education is so central to your story. Typically, [00:06:50] the back end of education is more institutional corporate life, [00:06:55] whether it’s becoming a lawyer or a doctor, whatever it is. So all [00:07:00] of I mean, me and my brothers all started in corporate and so did Marissa. I went [00:07:05] into real estate, private equity. Teddy went into management consultancy and Marissa started [00:07:10] in real estate, private equity as well. So. And then my older brother works at Facebook or Meta. And [00:07:15] so we were like really quickly pushed towards corporate life, even though my parents in their own right were kind [00:07:20] of entrepreneurs in their own sense because they came with nothing. So I probably have an entrepreneurial [00:07:25] itch in my bones, in my body, through them, but [00:07:30] I don’t know. I also feel like when you come out of university, you have no idea what you’re doing. And I [00:07:35] had no idea what I was doing. And my dad was always like, you don’t need to know what you’re doing. Just learn, absorb, [00:07:40] be a sponge. And that’s kind of how I feel when we hire people now, is they don’t need to necessarily be [00:07:45] the best in the world in their field, particularly if they’re young individuals. They just need to be really keen to learn [00:07:50] and grow. And that’s kind of how I felt when I left school.

Rhona Eskander: So my question is, [00:07:55] though, after I had them pushing so hard for an education and usually an education, as you said, does lead to [00:08:00] a more corporate job, something that is very risk averse, financially stable. [00:08:05] How did they react when you suddenly were like, hey Mom and Dad, I’m going to leave this really secure situation [00:08:10] and, you know, have a Start-Up and like, live on the sofa for a bit.

Levi Levenfiche: Um, we managed [00:08:15] to get some financial security because I was living at home a bit, but we were well paid working for American [00:08:20] firms. Um, and we weren’t, you know, although [00:08:25] the business has raised very little money and we didn’t have a massive trust fund to just build whatever [00:08:30] business we wanted, we had some financial security from savings that we we’d built up. And [00:08:35] the business wasn’t just like all of us quit our jobs and just, like, start. It was very much a work [00:08:40] in progress. And actually, Marissa was doing her masters, so she had time to [00:08:45] build out the business. Teddy resigned before I did, and then about. [00:08:50] I actually only joined the business full time about six months ago. Oh, wow. So although the business [00:08:55] is coming up to three years old, I worked essentially two jobs for the first two and a half years. Mhm. So [00:09:00] it was me making money and funding the business, um, with my paycheques. [00:09:05] And I think on Dragons Den, Teddy referred to me as maybe it was Peter Jones referred to me as Sugar [00:09:10] Brother. That’s what I was. I was just I was a sugar brother. I was running the business. [00:09:15] It’s cool. We’re fine. It’s all good. And that was my role. I mean, besides doing all the admin bullshit in [00:09:20] the business that, you know, couldn’t be done because Teddy and Marissa were doing a million other things. That was my job. [00:09:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, we were exactly the same. I mean, I stopped the other three continued being dentists, [00:09:30] and then they funded the whole first three [00:09:35] years of enlighten. Well, that’s what.

Rhona Eskander: Happened with Paula, right? As in, like, all of us have been working as dentists [00:09:40] as well as funding the business of that as well. And I think it’s really, really, really challenging. [00:09:45] Um, because you also read stories about how people completely quit their job Uber, Airbnb, [00:09:50] whatever, and then kind of live on a sofa on baked beans and like, this is it. This is how it’s got to work. I [00:09:55] want to rewind a little bit though. So let’s talk about the business. How how was the idea [00:10:00] born. And let’s talk about how that all started. And the name.

Levi Levenfiche: The name is an interesting [00:10:05] one. The name is probably less exciting than everyone thinks. Everyone’s like the name, the name. But I’ll tell you the real story about the name. [00:10:10] The business started because it was a confluence of forces, but where kind of [00:10:15] matcha comes into our lives? Is that Marissa? My wife has ADHD and anxiety. [00:10:20] So you. So she’s she’s neurodiverse. Um, and she was drinking a lot of [00:10:25] coffee, working in finance, um, at university, in the library, late at night, drinking a lot of [00:10:30] coffee, a lot of Red bull. And eventually it was just breaking her body down. She has jitters, anxiety crashes. [00:10:35] I mean, if you when you drink Red bull or coffee, how do you feel?

Rhona Eskander: I [00:10:40] feel pretty bad. I’ve actually been going. I stick to matcha and mushroom coffee, to be [00:10:45] honest. And again, it’s just because of that slow release. I don’t enjoy it. I feel actually really [00:10:50] anxious when I’ve had I can’t I cannot drink espresso. I can’t even drink a strong coffee or an Americano, to be [00:10:55] honest. Well, I used to.

Levi Levenfiche: Drink a lot of coffee and actually, as I didn’t have any issues with it, but [00:11:00] Marissa got on to matcha because a friend introduced it to her and then she was hooked. It changed [00:11:05] her life, and as a result, I think she pushed it onto myself and Teddy, and we got [00:11:10] very into it. And when we all moved back to the UK, there was no matcha. I [00:11:15] mean, there was a Pret, had matcha, but it was not very good. And no other high [00:11:20] street cafe chain had matcha. And the small independents that did were using really low quality matcha because there wasn’t [00:11:25] a lot of education around matcha. And it’s a premium product, so you can put it on a menu for like £5, £6. [00:11:30] Um, but the products themselves were really, really bad. So we had no matcha. [00:11:35] We were working long hours, we needed caffeine, so we just started buying our own matcha [00:11:40] from Japan. And that started as like, okay, let’s buy a sample here or a sample there to actually importing [00:11:45] like kilo bags of matcha for ourselves. And then we probably ordered too much at some point and said, [00:11:50] you know, if we’re getting this really good matcha and there’s a gap in the market because typically we [00:11:55] feel like the UK is a couple years behind the US, and matcha is massive in the US. Why [00:12:00] don’t we try and sell this to cafes, which we did. And that kind of leads us to here [00:12:05] and now. We’re the largest matcha brand in Europe as a result of that.

Levi Levenfiche: And it’s just [00:12:10] kind of been a crazy whirlwind ride. But it’s it wasn’t as clear cut as like, let’s quit our jobs. Let’s [00:12:15] start a matcha brand. It was we use this authentically. People are going to use this, are going to need it. So [00:12:20] let’s fill that gap. And then the name we we had a branding [00:12:25] agency which um, which [00:12:30] basically putting the packaging together at the very beginning we ended up actually we, we fired [00:12:35] all agencies ever. So we don’t need agencies anymore. We do it all in-house. Marissa taught herself graphic design, [00:12:40] but the one thing they did design is the logo. And we [00:12:45] essentially were going into production and needed a name, and we didn’t have a name and [00:12:50] the names they were giving us, we didn’t like. So we always liked brands that had names, [00:12:55] human names in them because we thought you could relate to them, whether it was, um, Tony’s Chocolonely, [00:13:00] for example, the chocolate brand or Nutty Bruces like an alternative milk brand. [00:13:05] There are so many out there. We always just felt like those brands resonated with us as human beings. So [00:13:10] we looked through our names. Levi was taken by the denim brand, so that was out [00:13:15] of office. It’s like Levi’s. So that one was done. Marissa, bless [00:13:20] her, like the name just doesn’t really roll off the tongue. And then Ted was there’s Ted as gender [00:13:25] neutral. Everyone knows a Ted. You probably got a teddy bear.

Rhona Eskander: The Ted. Yeah, the famous [00:13:30] teddy bear. The one with Mark Wahlberg.

Levi Levenfiche: Exactly. But you might have a dog called Ted. You know someone called Ted. [00:13:35] Like, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Such a funny story. Like a weird. You could have picked any name, right? Yeah, but.

Levi Levenfiche: But everyone [00:13:40] knows Ted, right? So. And then we were like, okay, Ted. I mean, we were like, let’s [00:13:45] put something before Ted. It could have been like, Reunite Ted or Handcraft Ted. [00:13:50] And we were like, we always say perfect. Like, if you were to say to me, like, how’s the dress? It’s perfect. [00:13:55] Yeah. Me too. So I just say, perfect, Ted. And that was it. And we just went with it. And I think the lesson learned is that. And you guys [00:14:00] probably see this in your businesses. The name is probably the most relevant thing. Yeah. It’s what you build around [00:14:05] it and how you position it.

Payman Langroudi: I agree. I mean, if McDonald’s was called Starbucks, then [00:14:10] we’d all be talking about Starbucks burgers, you know? Exactly.

Levi Levenfiche: What does McDonald’s really mean?

Payman Langroudi: Nothing. [00:14:15]

Levi Levenfiche: What does Starbucks really mean?

Rhona Eskander: I would have to disagree with that, actually, because I think that sometimes [00:14:20] brands that have a person behind it become more personable to people. [00:14:25] So if you think about even like, I don’t know if you’ve ever listened to a podcast with Joe Malone, but Joe Malone said one of her [00:14:30] biggest regrets in the world was actually calling the brand her name because now that she no longer owns the brand, [00:14:35] people still massively affiliated with her and it no longer really reflects who she is and what she does. [00:14:40] And I think that is interesting. But people resonate with Jo Malone because you think of a woman [00:14:45] that really knows and she’s really homely. So I definitely think and I think that is more personable than [00:14:50] The White Company, for example, you know, which, you know, arguably does a similar sort of thing. So I think [00:14:55] there is something about a name and as you said, a personal name that helps people [00:15:00] resonate, especially those that buy into people for sure.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Which is which is [00:15:05] what they were going for. But yeah, but you know, the people McDonald’s was a guy.

Rhona Eskander: He was a guy. Kentucky [00:15:10] Fried Chicken, he was a guy, wasn’t he? Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: But what I’m just saying is that the brand [00:15:15] itself is much less important than what the brand stands for.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, totally.

Levi Levenfiche: Yeah, totally. [00:15:20] Why is perfect head a match or an energy brand? There’s nothing that says. Yeah, and we actually had [00:15:25] we at the beginning. You fight with that, you’re like, okay, hang on. Should we change the name? Yeah. And we almost did, I think a couple [00:15:30] of times. But there’s bigger issues in a business than an engineer.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely.

Rhona Eskander: So you [00:15:35] had unbelievable success from the beginning. How did [00:15:40] you manage that? You know, as two people that have also had start ups themselves, it’s so [00:15:45] rare to have that astronomical growth from the beginning. How did that happen? Do you want to talk [00:15:50] to us a little bit about that? And, you know, any advice that you might want to give people that do want to start [00:15:55] something?

Levi Levenfiche: Yeah, I think the advice is always just start. Yeah. But we did have we [00:16:00] do have did have unbelievable success. But there’s also the stuff behind [00:16:05] that that people don’t see. There’s walking around Camden [00:16:10] or Shoreditch.

Rhona Eskander: This is when you first start. So I’m talking about embryonic stages products at the beginning. [00:16:15] Then what happened?

Levi Levenfiche: Well right at the beginning when we had this match, like we were walking around cafes trying to sell it, [00:16:20] and you have to just like guys walking [00:16:25] around with backpacks with cocaine bags full of matches, trying to sell it to cafes? Yeah. And I’m telling you to fuck [00:16:30] off and get out. Yeah. And we look like idiots with literally egg on our face. And that [00:16:35] is a really dark place. Because Teddy’s looking to quit his job. He’s just turned down his spot [00:16:40] at Harvard Law School. I’m working another job, so we’re just like, what are we doing? And [00:16:45] then I think the advice is get really good at being rejected. [00:16:50] I was in sales, so I was pretty used to rejection, but get really good at being rejected because at [00:16:55] the beginning it’s just pushing a ball up a hill and [00:17:00] people don’t see all the the stuff at the beginning. Same with your businesses. I’m sure there [00:17:05] were late nights and times when you were like, fuck this. Yeah. And now, on reflection, everyone [00:17:10] just sees that success. It’s like that quote about Lionel Messi. It’s like it took him 20 something years [00:17:15] to become an overnight success. There’s so much in the background that people don’t see all the hard work, all the graft. [00:17:20] So one of.

Rhona Eskander: My favourite quotes is, I don’t know if you’ve seen it because someone says, I can’t believe I went to [00:17:25] the doctor or the dentist, or spoke to a lawyer for 15 or 20 minutes and they charged that much and they [00:17:30] says, you’re not paying me for the years, you’re not paying for the time, you’re paying me for the years. And [00:17:35] I really liked that. I was like, because people fail to recognise that. To become an expert in [00:17:40] your profession, you need to be a master of your trade. Takes years and you’re paying for the years, not necessarily the [00:17:45] time, you know. Yeah, and I really like that. Have you seen.

Payman Langroudi: That? Um, you know, the guy from Nvidia? [00:17:50] No. Jensen. They asked him, what would you have if you could go back [00:17:55] and start again? What would you have done differently? And he said I wouldn’t have started Nvidia.

Levi Levenfiche: Really.

Payman Langroudi: And you [00:18:00] know, it’s like the biggest company in the whole world.

Rhona Eskander: Why did he say that?

Payman Langroudi: If you if you knew the pain and [00:18:05] hassle and shame and nightmares he would have had to go through, he would have never done it.

Levi Levenfiche: People [00:18:10] ask us all the time, if you sell the business and start something else, what would it be? And the number one answer is always not [00:18:15] a food and beverage brand because it is so difficult. It’s so saturated, it’s so competitive. [00:18:20] Yeah. And we have no experience in it. So there are so many issues you have to learn. There’s so much learning. [00:18:25]

Payman Langroudi: What was the first moment where you thought there’s an inflection, like from total [00:18:30] struggle to we might have something here. What was the moment that that comes comes to mind?

Levi Levenfiche: Um, [00:18:35] so we launched in our drinks in [00:18:40] October of 2021. So just under [00:18:45] three years ago. And we there was so much struggle to get to the point where we [00:18:50] had the drinks physically, you know, and we were launching at London Coffee Festival in Shoreditch [00:18:55] and we had the set and the set because we had no money to build a set was just the cans. [00:19:00] We just built Ikea CD shelves and put the cans in them and it looked good. So we’re like, [00:19:05] that’s the set. Um, and it was that first trade [00:19:10] show when people started coming and being like, oh, like matcha. Like, I’ve heard about matcha, matcha is interesting. And then [00:19:15] I remember one distributor who we now work with still came [00:19:20] up to us and gave us their business card. And they said, please get in touch. We think what you’re doing on [00:19:25] the healthy energy side has legs. That was just like the most real moment for us, because somebody besides us [00:19:30] and our parents who were like thinking we were really special, believed in us. Um, and then [00:19:35] off the back of that, we launched into Holland and Barrett very, very quickly through him, not [00:19:40] through not through the distributor.

Levi Levenfiche: They saw us on social media. So we’re putting out social media posts, really exposing [00:19:45] ourselves, making ourselves from the beginning, from the beginning, making ourselves, like, really look stupid and just [00:19:50] putting ourselves out there while all of our other friends are working corporate jobs and probably [00:19:55] not embarrassed about their lives in the public, we’re putting ourselves out there, which is really difficult [00:20:00] thing to do. It’s really exposing. And then Holland and Barrett found us through our social media, and now [00:20:05] Holland and Barrett. These products just launched into Holland Barrett. They’re one of our biggest partners and they’re amazing for us. So [00:20:10] those two points were really an inflection. But I guess if you reflect on your business, I’m sure it’s the same with you. With [00:20:15] you two, you just never know where the winner is going to come from. You just never know who the person you speak to is going to introduce [00:20:20] you to somebody Or so it’s like you got to increase the surface area of your life by just doing as much as you possibly can [00:20:25] and being at as many places as you possibly can, but also just like taking the risk and taking the punt, I. [00:20:30]

Rhona Eskander: Think, you know, there’s people also really underestimate exposure. And I think one one [00:20:35] thing that many people fail on, or the reason why they don’t start, is because they’re so afraid [00:20:40] of what other people think. And I think you have to be prepared to [00:20:45] have people laugh at you, to do things imperfectly and to fail and not care about that. And [00:20:50] social media is a massive step for a lot of people, a lot of people, particularly professional [00:20:55] people, because we’re designed to kind of be like, you know, you’re white collar, [00:21:00] you’re this, you’re proper, and you don’t want to be seen as somebody that’s like an influencer in a [00:21:05] way. But it’s that exposure because, as you said, you don’t know who’s watching you. You don’t know how many people [00:21:10] can resonate with what you’re doing. Or they might be like, oh, I actually see [00:21:15] what this person is about. And I think that’s really, really important. But you built.

Levi Levenfiche: A social following, So think about you at the beginning. [00:21:20] Yeah. And like us now, because we have nowhere near as many followers as you as an example. But [00:21:25] it’s not even like you’re putting out content and there’s hundreds of thousands of people who are loving it and are inspired by [00:21:30] it. You know, we put out stuff every day, even from now, from the beginning. [00:21:35] And you just it’s just you don’t know who’s going to interact with it. You don’t [00:21:40] know if it’s going to do anything for your business. And you get your friends, people who you think really [00:21:45] are your closest friends, making like kind of snide remarks at you, saying like, lol at your [00:21:50] LinkedIn or lol like, thanks for the inspiration. That’s really that’s really hard to hear [00:21:55] when people take the piss out of you because you’re putting yourself out there for something bigger. Um, and [00:22:00] that sucks.

Rhona Eskander: But I think that just narrows. It shows you, you know, for the people that first [00:22:05] of all, are too afraid to do what you’re doing, and it shows who really do want to see [00:22:10] you win. I think that’s really important. We had another guest on here last year, a guy [00:22:15] that’s an influencer. Really successful influencer, Henry, and he was saying exactly the same thing because when [00:22:20] he started producing like fashion and fitness content as a guy, he was getting, you know, the piss [00:22:25] ripped out of him. People were like, what the hell are you doing? Like, you’re walking around topless. But he had and now he has a massive following. [00:22:30] He does really well. He gets huge brand collaborations. And I really think that those people that waste [00:22:35] time making fun of what you’re doing is because they just can’t do it themselves. You know, we.

Levi Levenfiche: Had a really [00:22:40] interesting. So Steven Bartlett was in our office about [00:22:45] a year ago, maybe like 11 months ago, and we just had our youngest team member join. [00:22:50] A guy called Max who had. No, I don’t think he had a LinkedIn at the time. And he was [00:22:55] 18, really smart, just left school, wanted to go into business rather [00:23:00] than go to university, even though he I think got three stars in his A-level. Really, really smart guy. Um, [00:23:05] so we took him on and he was crazy enough to join us. And Steven was in the office and we introduced [00:23:10] him to Max. And Steven is obviously an inspiring entrepreneur. And Max said, can I ask [00:23:15] you a question? Steven said yes. Max said, I want to build my personal brand [00:23:20] like you have and build a social following, but I don’t have LinkedIn. I have a few hundred [00:23:25] followers on Instagram. What would be your number one piece of advice for someone who wants to put themselves [00:23:30] out there, but is too nervous to do so because they’re scared they’re going to get judged by their friends and their [00:23:35] family.

Levi Levenfiche: And Steven’s advice was kind of what I just said was just start. And so actually, the impetus [00:23:40] for what Max has built, which I’ll come on to, is Steven said to him, if you [00:23:45] talk about consistency firstly and building the habit, if you post every working day for [00:23:50] the next year. He shook his hand on it and it was on camera and everything. I’ll fly you to LA [00:23:55] with with Steven for two weeks to do podcast stuff and just to hang out [00:24:00] with him and his team and Max, who’s like an 18 year old impressionable guy. He’s like, oh my God, that’s unbelievable. [00:24:05] Max hasn’t missed a post any weekday in the last ten, 11 months. [00:24:10] He’s coming up to 12 months, so Steven better book his flights or whatever. Yeah, but Max has built a social following [00:24:15] that’s huge on LinkedIn. And now people who are interested in the brand often find it through Max. [00:24:20] And it’s the power of social that that really can have on your business. But it’s all about starting and [00:24:25] letting go of the inhibitions of the people that are judging you.

Rhona Eskander: Linkedin is a really interesting one. I just [00:24:30] started posting actually last week randomly. I was like, I feel like I should just do LinkedIn. I’m really good with [00:24:35] consistency because I’ve always believed that consistency takes you to places that motivation can’t, and that most [00:24:40] important thing is just showing up. Atomic habits is one of my most favourite books. [00:24:45] Yeah, exactly, because sometimes I will go to the gym for like 20 minutes and do a half arsed workout. But the most important [00:24:50] thing is, is that I turned up right? Because it’s the habits that build what you what you [00:24:55] want. So it’s really funny because I’m trying to tailor like my LinkedIn posts [00:25:00] in comparison to my Instagram. Have you noticed I’ve started doing stuff and like I’m making much more like businessy [00:25:05] and like entrepreneurial. And I’m really enjoying it actually, because sometimes with Instagram I feel that pressure to like, look a certain [00:25:10] way, be under the kind of like glamour stuff going on. Sometimes a post flops and you’re [00:25:15] like, oh, this. But actually LinkedIn, I kind of have I don’t care as much. Yeah. So I think it’s [00:25:20] a really interesting platform. Now, you’ve mentioned Stephen a few times, and I think one of the most important things [00:25:25] we want to discuss today is your Dragon’s Den journey. I’ve done Dragon’s Den as well as you know, [00:25:30] and I want to hear about how you got onto the show, what your experience was [00:25:35] planning, etcetera, and what happened. Sure.

Levi Levenfiche: I wasn’t on the show. Ah, okay. I was the lucky one who didn’t go on. [00:25:40] So during Covid, I think there was a maximum of two people could go on at any one time. Yeah, that was what happened with us. Yeah. [00:25:45] Yeah. So I was obviously I actually was in Ibiza for work. Sure. [00:25:50] I actually was the the proof is that I was I was speaking at an event and my Apple [00:25:55] Watch was going crazy because I knew they were on the show and I couldn’t answer the phone, so [00:26:00] I had to call them afterwards. But they were calling me with the BBC producers filming the FaceTime, so I missed [00:26:05] my I missed my minute of glory, but it’s okay. So Teddy and Marissa went on the show. We [00:26:10] spoke to them.

Rhona Eskander: So they did. They get head hunted because researchers contacted us and said, do you guys want to come [00:26:15] on it?

Levi Levenfiche: They got headhunted by the BBC and then went through like the basic diligence stuff [00:26:20] of sending us your numbers, your story, etc. this was in year one. We were too early. They [00:26:25] said, you’re still a bit early, come back next year. And by the way, Marissa is American, so they [00:26:30] have Shark Tank. But as a Brit, Dragons Den is like iconic. You know, it [00:26:35] was what we watched with our family. Yeah. And like Levi roots reggae reggae sauce [00:26:40] is like just like part of my childhood, you know? Um, so [00:26:45] we kept building the business. A year later, we said, let’s get back in touch with them. We emailed the producer. He [00:26:50] said, great, like, send me some stuff. We did the whole the whole thing again. And then they went silent. And [00:26:55] then it must have been in June of 2021. [00:27:00] No, 2022. Um, we get an email that says, hey guys, [00:27:05] are slots open? Think you’d be great for the show. Can you come in? Oh my God, we’re going to go on Dragons [00:27:10] Den. This is amazing. And the next question was obviously when? When is the airing [00:27:15] or when is the filming. It was a I think it was a Friday and [00:27:20] they said it’s on Thursday. So we had essentially 5 or 6 days. Oh my.

Payman Langroudi: Goodness.

Levi Levenfiche: And I was going for [00:27:25] the work trip. And so and at this point we had no grasp of our numbers or the business plan or anything. [00:27:30] It was just like three of us going at it. We had a couple. We had one employee or two employees. We [00:27:35] had no idea what we were doing. We were just trying to grow. And we basically sat in a boardroom for three [00:27:40] days and kind of worked out our numbers. I was calling my friends who were working at KPMG as accountants [00:27:45] being like, what is, what’s the profit if like if this is our revenue [00:27:50] and this is our what’s our.

Payman Langroudi: Margin down as one of the best pitches ever.

Levi Levenfiche: Though it did. But [00:27:55] I think that’s like we didn’t I think it was because firstly Marissa and Teddy were very polished. Marissa, especially [00:28:00] because she’s American, just sounds better. But I think it was we prepared as [00:28:05] much as we physically could in 3 to 4 days, and we just knew everything inside out, no stone unturned. [00:28:10] They really, really practised. But they were in there for an hour and a half, I think an hour and 45 minutes, and they show 14 [00:28:15] minutes on TV and they just crushed it. They did so well, and I think it was their energy more than [00:28:20] their answers. They just brought good energy.

Payman Langroudi: They got five offers.

Levi Levenfiche: Yeah. And they took money on the show from Steven [00:28:25] and Peter and then ultimately post pricing with you guys post [00:28:30] den. There’s like way more stuff. And we ended up just doing a deal with Steven Bartlett. [00:28:35]

Rhona Eskander: So it’s interesting hearing all this back because I’ve got so many memories. So we were actually featured on Plastic [00:28:40] Free July firstly on ITV this morning, my friend Sarah Jostle had featured Parler. [00:28:45] Then we got a message from the researchers. Then we had to do a rehearsal on [00:28:50] camera. Recorded really? First of all. Yeah. And then they were like, okay, you’re through through from round one. [00:28:55] Then they said to us, only two of you can go on the show. And it [00:29:00] was decided that it was going to be me and Simon who you met, and we’d practised our pitch [00:29:05] like a million times, and it was super polished and we decided who was going to talk about what. My sister [00:29:10] even designed this incredible set. She’s an architect and a set designer. So we could hear the dragons [00:29:15] like, what is this? Because it was just this unbelievable set. We were also [00:29:20] separated because of Covid. I’m sure it was the same with your brother and Marissa, because we [00:29:25] couldn’t be in the same room. So our dressing rooms were, like, separate. Can you imagine? And then they made us wait around for three [00:29:30] hours. Then after that, then after that, we went in and we were grilled for about [00:29:35] two hours inside, um, inside the boardroom. Do you want to call it a boardroom? I feel like [00:29:40] what I’m talking about The Apprentice, but I was going to call it The Den, okay? And we actually had two [00:29:45] offers, and it was interesting because I don’t think it was necessarily the pitch, [00:29:50] but I think it was that they found toothpaste tablets in particular to be so niche. And [00:29:55] it seemed to suit Deborah because she’s super vegan, and also Tash, who was also at the time [00:30:00] because he was one of the dragons, you know, have this vitamins. Yeah, exactly. So [00:30:05] it was really, really interesting. And we turned down the offer.

Levi Levenfiche: But [00:30:10] that’s let’s be honest, be honest.

Payman Langroudi: Do you regret that?

Rhona Eskander: Have you seen the bit like it went really viral [00:30:15] on TikTok? Someone randomly reposted this on TikTok. Like they found it where I was like at the back [00:30:20] of the wall and I was going to Simon, but just go in with a lower offer. And then he was like, ruins, it’s too much. Have [00:30:25] you not seen you remember that bit at the wall, right? And so anyways, it went viral on TikTok recently again after like 4 or 5 years whenever [00:30:30] we did it. And so you do regret it. I really wanted to take an offer, to be honest [00:30:35] with you. I really, really, really, really, really wanted to take an offer. And I think also all the buzz, [00:30:40] as you know, around the show, when we had aired, [00:30:45] because it took a year to air or whatever it was, nine months, the sales that we that were created [00:30:50] were even more than the investment that we had actually asked. It’s astronomical marketing, [00:30:55] you know, you have no idea the power of that show.

Levi Levenfiche: It’s like 4 million people.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, yeah, crazy. And [00:31:00] I think, you know, it was one of our best financial months. But also on top of that, [00:31:05] the amount of investors that came forward as well and the interest around that time [00:31:10] was unbelievable. And I think that it gives you a false sense of security in a way, [00:31:15] because you’re like, everyone wants us. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But did you go into it sort of more soberly [00:31:20] than I guess, in a way. You guys thought that the deal wasn’t good enough. Right.

Rhona Eskander: Whereas [00:31:25] it wasn’t, though. I mean, they wanted.

Payman Langroudi: It’s never good enough. But maybe they went into it thinking, okay, we’re going to give [00:31:30] away a big chunk of our company for less money than it’s worth. I don’t know, but we’re [00:31:35] going to get the marketing out of it.

Levi Levenfiche: I don’t know what your business was at the time, but we we were doing, I think [00:31:40] the the month we went into film, we were doing like it may have been [00:31:45] £10,000 that month.

Payman Langroudi: So it was very early.

Levi Levenfiche: It was early. So we went in and we we were similar. [00:31:50]

Rhona Eskander: I think we were also the very baby stages or we were doing maybe a little bit more, but we were.

Levi Levenfiche: We were I [00:31:55] mean, we went in for the TV, we said to ourselves, we own 100% of the business. [00:32:00] We’re very early on. Let’s go in with a valuation that is realistic, realistic, reasonable, [00:32:05] and we’ll get offers. Because if you get the number one thing they push back on is valuation. So if you go in like a £3 million [00:32:10] valuation, it’s like you’re just isolating yourself. Exactly. So you can always not do the deal afterwards. So we went [00:32:15] in million pound valuation did a deal at 500,000. And [00:32:20] I mean it was just it was kind of irrelevant how much the business we gave away because it was [00:32:25] a percentage of nothing essentially at that point. And we ended up not taking the money from Peter [00:32:30] because they didn’t want to dilute 10%. And in between the time that you filmed [00:32:35] and the negotiation, we actually only signed with Steven the day it aired. It aired on March [00:32:40] 2nd, I think. Um, and we signed on March 1st with Steven or something. So it took nine [00:32:45] months of negotiating. So what was his percentage? He took 5% of the business, and it was for 20 [00:32:50] 500 £0. And that 5%, the second [00:32:55] 5% for Peter in that negotiation period. Tesco approached us. Waitrose approached us. So [00:33:00] the whole thing about Peter, which was distribution and scale, we felt like we could achieve on [00:33:05] our own through the relationships we built with the supermarkets. Whereas Stephen’s whole thing was brand and [00:33:10] it is brand and he’s amazing at it and that’s been a great part, you know. But the relationship [00:33:15] for our business. So would you.

Rhona Eskander: Say one of the best decisions that you made was taking Stephen solely as [00:33:20] a dragon, because you recognised early on that it was about the brand versus the scale? [00:33:25]

Levi Levenfiche: 100%, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So how much does Stephen contribute? [00:33:30] I mean, can you call him any time you want? Do you meet with him once a month? What’s the story? [00:33:35]

Levi Levenfiche: So it’s less formal than monthly meetings. Although I think we probably should have monthly meetings. I think [00:33:40] it’s just we have. We’re all over the place. He’s travelling, we’re travelling, we’re working, he’s working. It’s [00:33:45] very much as though I think we’re friends. So we WhatsApp, I’d say every day. Every other day [00:33:50] we’re in a WhatsApp group and it’s just non-stop. It’s just ideas throwing around. Stephen isn’t [00:33:55] the investor. We don’t need an investor in Stephen to be digging into our [00:34:00] financials. And really, he’s not the one that is driving pure financial [00:34:05] decisions. He’s a marketing genius. He’s a brand genius, and he really supports us on on that. So for example, [00:34:10] we did the brand collaboration with the guy called, um, the hardest geezer, who’s the guy who [00:34:15] ran the length of Africa. I don’t know if you saw him. He was he was he was big on TV. We sponsored him and his run [00:34:20] across Africa. Stephen brought that to us. So Stephen really opens a lot of doors for us on the brand side. Connections, [00:34:25] connections. He’s very involved and he has really, really good marketing ideas. And he is [00:34:30] just he’s a massive supporter of the brand. He uses it authentically. We’re now the sponsor to diary of a CEO. [00:34:35] So it’s, you know in his cup on the podcast. It’s what he drinks. Him and his [00:34:40] girlfriend use it. His team love it. Um, and so it just is a really authentic partnership. I think [00:34:45] maybe with you guys on the show, I don’t know how authentic it would have been. [00:34:50] For example, I mean, actually, Tish and Deborah both have kind of like vitamins and sustainability angles, but I think authenticity [00:34:55] and a partner is massive.

Rhona Eskander: So ultimately, what they wanted, like you said, my [00:35:00] business partners are very sassy and au fait, especially with the financials. So [00:35:05] they went like really knowing the numbers and really realistic and asked for [00:35:10] £70,000 for 9%. And they basically said that they would give £70,000 [00:35:15] for 30%. That’s a lot, you know. I mean, that made them the majority [00:35:20] versus us because there was already three of us 30%. Was it? Correct. Yeah. [00:35:25] So it became almost impossible to negotiate down because even if we wanted to negotiate [00:35:30] down to like 15, that was almost by half. Uh, Deborah loved it. She [00:35:35] really loved it. And I think she would have been an incredible partner. And obviously, Touker, when we [00:35:40] left the den, was like, you dodged a bullet with that. That’s when we went off the camera. Like they showed it in the episode. [00:35:45] And then Deborah turns around. There was a really iconic moment, and Deborah turns around and goes, no, we didn’t, [00:35:50] You know, I haven’t got what those two have got as an in with me and Simon. She was like, you know, they’re young, [00:35:55] they’re this, they’re this. So we obviously had impressed them with our professionalism, with the way [00:36:00] that we had done the pitch, etc.. But it’s such a new idea. And although matcha is niche, [00:36:05] it was toothpaste. Tablets were like super, super niche and it still requires people to consider [00:36:10] changing a habit of a lifetime. So it was quite a difficult thing. But as I said, you know, [00:36:15] we rode this huge wave, um, with the brand off Dragon’s Den. I [00:36:20] think Dragon’s I always say to young entrepreneurs that have got a good brand, I’m like, if you can get on the show, do [00:36:25] it 100%, 100%, 100%.

Levi Levenfiche: I met with a brand. We get calls I think, from we [00:36:30] get LinkedIn DMs from brands who are going on the show or Stephen has just invested in on the show, [00:36:35] asking us every question you could consider, because I think quite publicly, Stephen [00:36:40] has backed us as a business quite heavily, and we’ve aligned ourselves very closely with Stephen. [00:36:45] So we’re kind of like the Stephen Bartlett brand from Dragons Den, which is something we’re trying to grow out of because [00:36:50] I think we’re bigger than that now in some sense. We want to graduate from that in some sense, [00:36:55] even though it’s amazing marketing for us. But we get calls from all the dragons and investments [00:37:00] who say, what’s it like to work with Stephen? I’m negotiating this. Um, do you have any advice? So [00:37:05] we’re very interwoven with Stephen’s team and his life and everything.

Rhona Eskander: Let’s [00:37:10] talk a little about the growth. Right. Because you said you’re not afraid to shy away. Um, you know, from the financials, [00:37:15] etc.. So has there been a steady growth? Have you had dips? What’s happened in terms of the growth [00:37:20] period? Yeah.

Levi Levenfiche: So it’s there hasn’t been a dip. Thank God. Touch wood. [00:37:25] That’s wood.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Levi Levenfiche: Um it’s just been it was like this [00:37:30] then Dragon’s Den. We did, I think £400,000 that month. Wow. The month that Dragon’s [00:37:35] Den aired. So. March 2023. So about [00:37:40] 18 months ago. Um, last month, we just did 1.3 million. Wow. So [00:37:45] the business has kind of just really scared super quickly. Um, and I think we’ve done an amazing job with the sales team. [00:37:50] We’ve done an amazing job of getting distribution and building out the platform. And but really, we’ve had a lot of [00:37:55] support from the retailers. Tesco has really backed us on the Barrett, Waitrose and other [00:38:00] other supermarkets have really backed us and given us the opportunity when we’ve just been an unknown brand. So it’s a combination [00:38:05] of leveraging all the Dragon’s Den hype and the Stephen piece, and then institutionalising [00:38:10] it by building a team and putting it into physical retail. But for example, there are areas of our [00:38:15] business that are still small and still could scale, such as our e-commerce. [00:38:20] I don’t know what you guys are like on e-commerce, but we’re still fairly new to the game.

Rhona Eskander: So when you’re talking [00:38:25] about just DTC and all that kind of thing, Amazon and the website. Yeah, I think it’s challenging. I mean, we’re [00:38:30] definitely in a different I think we’re in a different period of time at the moment anyways. You know, I [00:38:35] think there has been a recession. I think that people are buying differently, more conscientiously. These are premium [00:38:40] products, you know, that we’re selling.

Payman Langroudi: Um, if I was going to buy this, I would buy [00:38:45] it off Amazon though. Why? Ease. That’s where I would buy stuff like this.

Levi Levenfiche: So [00:38:50] it’s interesting. Amazon is now I haven’t got a stat to back this up. But Amazon is where people go. At least [00:38:55] I go to search for for goods right? So if I need like a clothes rack [00:39:00] or I need washing tablets, I don’t go on Google and type in washing. I go on Amazon.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe it’s [00:39:05] the I’d have to persuade my wife to buy it from Ricardo, and she wouldn’t [00:39:10] buy enough of it or the right amount of it. I would just take it upon myself and I don’t know how to use Amazon. I would go [00:39:15] straight to Amazon. Yeah, it is easy for something like this. I actually I used to buy something like not like this, but like a [00:39:20] healthy fizzy drink. Yeah. From Amazon. They went they went under a thing.

Levi Levenfiche: The powders do much better. [00:39:25] It’s tasty. Really tasty. I’ll send you some more.

Rhona Eskander: But I say give me some.

Payman Langroudi: Explain this [00:39:30] to me regarding brand. And you said you’re the biggest in Europe. So [00:39:35] I take it there’s a bigger one in the US?

Levi Levenfiche: Uh, I don’t know. I mean, the US is just a much bigger market, [00:39:40] so.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So the question of, you know, like you have to worry about it. I guess you [00:39:45] guys have to worry about it too, right? With yours, if it works out and it’s working out, pretty [00:39:50] soon there’ll be a copycat.

Levi Levenfiche: There are copycats already?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. And some of those copycats will have much [00:39:55] bigger distribution than you guys already have. I mean, maybe it might not be a Coca Cola, right? [00:40:00] They’re a bit slow, but some other some other food and beverage brand that’s already [00:40:05] in all the. Yeah. Is that what keeps you up at night?

Levi Levenfiche: I mean, we have enough distribution. It does, but we have enough distribution [00:40:10] now where I think.

Payman Langroudi: It’s its own thing.

Levi Levenfiche: It’s its own thing. And we can’t just be switched [00:40:15] in and switched out. I think a bit.

Payman Langroudi: Like, you know, the coconut water brand. Yeah. I [00:40:20] don’t buy the copycats, man. I buy the original. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: The Vita.

Levi Levenfiche: Vita Coco.

Payman Langroudi: Vita Vita.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:40:25] way prefer innocent. Copycat.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a copycat.

Rhona Eskander: No, it tastes better.

Payman Langroudi: I know, but I just don’t like copycats. [00:40:30]

Rhona Eskander: Better.

Levi Levenfiche: Okay, buy the original.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Levi Levenfiche: We, um, we [00:40:35] from a business perspective, and I’m sure it’s same with you guys. We’ve built it up so that we we have three [00:40:40] sides to the business. Model. We have the cans, we have these powders that are in retail. And then we also supply cafes, [00:40:45] hotels, restaurants. So anywhere from enjoying the juice we’ve got a big partnership with around the world, [00:40:50] um, to Black Sheep Coffee as an example, to Soho Coffee to all these chains. [00:40:55] These guys.

Payman Langroudi: Had existing matcha suppliers of.

Rhona Eskander: Them, didn’t love them, didn’t match us. Quite a lot [00:41:00] of them didn’t. But we’ve ruined the juice. They didn’t.

Levi Levenfiche: But it’s massive for these for these businesses because actually they’re tapping [00:41:05] into something that there’s a massive demand for. And we’re helping people.

Rhona Eskander: Want it, people want it. But it’s also.

Levi Levenfiche: Really hard to get [00:41:10] in good quality at good price. And because we’re doing this, this and this, we [00:41:15] have the scale to bring down the cost of matcha. If you were to go into a supermarket and buy matcha three [00:41:20] years ago, you could probably buy a good matcha £18.

Rhona Eskander: I was paying for a little pot.

Levi Levenfiche: Yeah, maybe more than that. Even if [00:41:25] you go to Planet Organic or.

Payman Langroudi: Selfridges whole Foods I paid.

Levi Levenfiche: Yeah, £30, £35, £40. So [00:41:30] that is £10.50 in Tesco, that first pouch, the other one is about £14 in Holland [00:41:35] and Barrett it’s really accessible. It’s inexpensive. That’s because we’ve managed [00:41:40] to keep the price down because of scale. And that’s why we’re trying to make matcha more accessible [00:41:45] for everyone, as opposed to going in at a really premium price point. So we’re the best product in the market at the lowest price. [00:41:50]

Rhona Eskander: Are you guys paying yourself a salary? Dividends. How is it working?

Levi Levenfiche: Yeah, so we’ve just started [00:41:55] paying ourselves a salary. Um, we not dividend, but we loaned [00:42:00] money to the business at the very beginning.

Rhona Eskander: So directors loans.

Levi Levenfiche: Directors loans, paying the loans back and then taking [00:42:05] a very small salary. Yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And if I want to copy this. So it’s a bit [00:42:10] unfair question to ask you, but to.

Levi Levenfiche: Copy.

Payman Langroudi: Made in Holland. Right.

Levi Levenfiche: It’s [00:42:15] made in the UK but we distribute in the Netherlands as well. Oh I see. In theory, yeah, you could reverse engineer that. But that’s [00:42:20] why the most important thing quite easily right, is brand. Yeah, not that easily because matcha itself is a really hard [00:42:25] product to put in a can. We found that because we had a bunch of production issues. But [00:42:30] yeah, it’s I mean it’s it’s water matcha [00:42:35] fruit juice. It’s sparkling water with fruit juice and matcha. So really, someone like Coke with a massive marketing [00:42:40] or NPD budget could reverse engineer that in the same way that I could reverse engineer that smoothie you’re drinking [00:42:45] or Coke, right? Because it’s all out there. It’s just a matter of brand at that point. [00:42:50]

Rhona Eskander: I think also as well, there is something to do business. Same to do with like authenticity. You know, when we talk about parlour [00:42:55] as well, one of the big questions is, well, isn’t Colgate going to copy you? And I said, yeah, but it’s like McDonald’s saying they’re doing [00:43:00] a healthy salad. You know, these big conglomerates have been doing it for so long and doing it wrong for so [00:43:05] long, you’re not going to really believe the authenticity when they come out with something. And Colgate did try a toothpaste [00:43:10] tablet and it flopped, you know. So it’s the same with was it dollar shave Club. Dollar shave club. [00:43:15] Dollar shave club. You think about them as well. Then Gillette tried to do their own sort of version. It didn’t do very well. [00:43:20] So I think you can always say, yeah, these people will do it, but it doesn’t matter. Interestingly, [00:43:25] I was walking past, you know, Chelsea Dental Clinics on the Fulham Road, you [00:43:30] know, where the Marks and Spencer’s is. So I was walking to Marks and Spencer’s. I need to go pick up something. [00:43:35] And I looked across the road and there was a new dental practice and they’ve called themselves Dental Clinic Chelsea. And [00:43:40] I was like, that is hilarious. It’s a new one. Yeah, it’s a new one. And I said [00:43:45] to my I said to my husband and he was like, well, when people are copying you, you know you’re doing something right. Like that’s [00:43:50] the way you’ve got to see it.

Levi Levenfiche: So it’s the, uh, it’s the highest form of compliment, isn’t it? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:43:55] many people are you?

Levi Levenfiche: We are 19 people, which feels like a [00:44:00] million people to us because it was 18 months ago, maybe 19 months ago, that we were three of us, round [00:44:05] of like an office. Our office was the size of this table, and we’ve now outgrown [00:44:10] our current office and moving office in probably six months or so. And it just [00:44:15] keeps growing. And the problems change from, you know, worrying about [00:44:20] product or cash or distribution to team problems. I’m dealing with the livelihoods of [00:44:25] like 19 individuals, which is scary.

Rhona Eskander: He knows we know the same. [00:44:30]

Payman Langroudi: And what about on the sort of fulfilment and all of that. Is that all outsourced? Um. [00:44:35] Warehouse? Yeah.

Levi Levenfiche: So we outsource all the warehousing, and we use a three pl. So third party logistics [00:44:40] group in the UK and the Netherlands. Um, we try and be smart [00:44:45] and outsource what we can, but we like to keep everything in-house in terms of design, brand, agency, videography, [00:44:50] photography, marketing, etc. because every time we’ve used an agency, they just don’t get [00:44:55] it, like we get it. And you said.

Payman Langroudi: You had cameras from the beginning. Yeah. That’s what they call it. Building public [00:45:00] or something. Yeah.

Levi Levenfiche: We’re like building in public. Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So why did you do that? Did you know to do that? Did you?

Levi Levenfiche: Because we didn’t [00:45:05] have a marketing budget to spend hundreds of thousand pounds on Amazon or Google ads [00:45:10] or meta ads. So we were like, let’s just film everything, and our marketing channel [00:45:15] or our marketing positioning can be like founder led, team led, instead of doing UGC, which is user generated [00:45:20] content. We did UGC, which is employee generated content, and that’s just been our marketing positioning. And [00:45:25] I think what that’s evolved to is we’re no longer like a product. We never were. We aren’t a [00:45:30] product led brand. These are the products. But actually we’re a purpose [00:45:35] led, purpose led or we’re led by the brand versus the product. So [00:45:40] people will look at our social media feed, don’t see the products really. They see people lifestyle [00:45:45] faces. Um, because ultimately we’re trying to evoke a feeling in people [00:45:50] when they’re using our products, not just like stick a product in. So that’s why when I, when I go on a social media account of [00:45:55] another food and beverage brand, it’s 99% of the time, just like someone holding a can on the beach, [00:46:00] someone drinking matcha like in their kitchen. Whereas we’re all about how it makes you [00:46:05] feel, not about the product itself. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Do you do influencer marketing? Do you believe in influencer marketing?

Levi Levenfiche: We’ve [00:46:10] done hardly any to date. The nice thing about matcha is that influencers like matcha. [00:46:15] And so we do a lot of gifting, but we don’t do any paid influencer marketing. It is something we’re starting to look at [00:46:20] fine.

Rhona Eskander: So we’ve all had a very nice story so far, and I’m going to dig a little bit deeper. [00:46:25] Let’s do it. Yeah. Have you had any really low moments during this journey, or your [00:46:30] life in general, where you felt like your mental health had been suffering, or anyone, perhaps in your company, [00:46:35] and how you dealt with that?

Levi Levenfiche: Yeah. So we start [00:46:40] with the personal. It is very hard to work with your brother. When you [00:46:45] said you worked with your brother.

Payman Langroudi: Well, well, no, I’m breaking the rules as well. Yeah, wife and best friend. [00:46:50] Wife and best.

Levi Levenfiche: Friend. So, like, it’s. I don’t know if you work with siblings or your husband. [00:46:55]

Rhona Eskander: No, I actually don’t. But go ahead. You’re lucky.

Levi Levenfiche: So I work [00:47:00] with my wife and my brother, and up until about two months ago, we all lived together. [00:47:05] And so the way the number one argument that would come in our respective relationships would [00:47:10] be, um, because of work. So Teddy would have a perspective on something [00:47:15] and Marissa would have perspective on something, and they’d be very different because they’re very different people [00:47:20] and they have very different views. And I’d be stuck in the middle and I’d have to basically pick. So if I pick [00:47:25] Marissa and her perspective. Then Teddy’s [00:47:30] like, we’re not going to the gym in the morning. We’re not, you know, fuck you. We’re not talking. And he’ll [00:47:35] be pissy with me if I pick Teddy. I have to get into bed with [00:47:40] Marissa that evening, and she just, like, good night, you know? You know, this.

Payman Langroudi: Classic.

Levi Levenfiche: Classic. [00:47:45] You know, it’s very difficult to be the one in between two people. And they’re [00:47:50] both very strong, stubborn and strong characters. And so I’m always have been caught in the middle. And [00:47:55] it’s been been really tense moments, a lot of them caught on camera where the business [00:48:00] was. Not going [00:48:05] through trouble. But there are very complex moments in a business where you have to make decisions that are [00:48:10] almost life and death for the business, and if you have two very contrasting views and [00:48:15] I’m caught in the middle, it’s very, very difficult. And so it’s affected our relationships really negatively [00:48:20] as individuals. And it also has changed how we are. I think Teddy’s probably less close with Marissa [00:48:25] as a friend than he was 3 or 4 years ago now, because it’s very, very [00:48:30] professional and they have to think about how they communicate with each other, because ultimately they’re co-workers first [00:48:35] and probably family second. We spend so much time in the office that we have to be professional with each [00:48:40] other, even when we want to tell each other to fuck off or we want to give them a hug, or I want to tell Teddy I [00:48:45] love him. Whatever, any of these things, you can’t really do it in the office because you’ve got to be professional. So I think it’s been a really [00:48:50] difficult thing is creating separation, creating boundaries between work life [00:48:55] and all of it.

Rhona Eskander: I think, you know, you know, as I reflect on that, I think one of the most difficult [00:49:00] things and you hear it all the time from entrepreneurs is the aspect [00:49:05] of like going into business with friends. So I can’t even imagine what it is for family. And I think [00:49:10] you’re right, because the dynamics that you have within a friendship are completely different to when [00:49:15] you get into business with somebody, and I think that’s really challenging.

Payman Langroudi: I totally I’d say it’s worth it. [00:49:20] I’d say it’s worth it in the end. Yeah. Because, you know, I think.

Rhona Eskander: With friendships it’s more.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult. I see Sanjay every day [00:49:25] now. Yeah, it’s nice and it’s a wonderful thing. But you.

Rhona Eskander: Work and you understand how you guys.

Payman Langroudi: Work. But. [00:49:30] But all our conversations are work. Conversations. Yeah, yeah.

Levi Levenfiche: Work isn’t left in the office, is it? [00:49:35] Like I’ll be. We’ll be at dinner with my family. Sorry. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And but another important question, [00:49:40] and it’s something I regret in a way, is that when we set this company up, that [00:49:45] was at the time when we set it up, Google and everything were just just sort of starting and that touchy [00:49:50] feely way of working that everyone thought was a ping pong table and all of that. Did he do all [00:49:55] of that? We’ve got yeah, we’ve got beanbags. The whole thing. But forget that. That’s superficial [00:50:00] crap, right? But I had this feeling that as a company, the feeling [00:50:05] would be the same as as a family. Yeah. And we did that. But I think [00:50:10] it was an error. Yeah. And when you talk to real, proper business people, they [00:50:15] talk about pro sports team. Yeah, that’s how we think. Much better way of looking at it.

Rhona Eskander: Like why? Explain. What’s [00:50:20] this.

Payman Langroudi: Sport. Because pro sports team is the best person in the job. Doing the right job for [00:50:25] for the best, for the, for the company, for the good of the company.

Levi Levenfiche: They’re off.

Payman Langroudi: They’re out. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Do [00:50:30] you know.

Payman Langroudi: When it’s a family here, that’s.

Levi Levenfiche: But we’re moving towards that. Like, to be honest, it’s [00:50:35] quite a sad thing. We have treated our employees and our team like family. And it gets you. Only [00:50:40] gets you so far because then the boundaries are are blurred. And they’ll make a comment or you’ll make a comment [00:50:45] and you’ll see them outside of work or whatever it is, and it just becomes awkward. It’s a lovely. [00:50:50]

Payman Langroudi: Thing. It’s a wonderful thing. It’s nice to.

Levi Levenfiche: A point, but.

Payman Langroudi: To a point we’re really.

Levi Levenfiche: Trying to scale. We’re trying to go from 1.5 [00:50:55] million to 3 million a month next year. You’ve got to be ruthless and brutal [00:51:00] and cutthroat. And for someone like me who is sweet, I [00:51:05] don’t know if I’m sweet, but I’m like, I have. I have like, don’t demasculinization. I’m like [00:51:10] having a I have an emotional conscience. Right? It’s very difficult for me to tell people they’re not good enough, [00:51:15] or to get rid of people or to move people out of the business. It’s very, very difficult.

Rhona Eskander: So has that played on your [00:51:20] mental health as well? You know, because you’ve had to take on that role of having to like fire people [00:51:25] or to break bad news. Do you think that’s had an effect on you?

Levi Levenfiche: Yeah. Giving feedback is the hardest thing in the world, because [00:51:30] I have to turn around to somebody and say what you did or how you’ve been [00:51:35] or your performance over the last X weeks, months, whatever is bad, it’s not [00:51:40] good enough. Obviously, you communicate it in a way that makes them feel better, but giving really harsh feedback is [00:51:45] super important. You’ve got to be transparent. You’ve got to act like a sports team because ultimately, my [00:51:50] I don’t owe it to the team. I [00:51:55] owe it to the larger company. So no individual is bigger than the team is what I’m trying to say. So if someone’s not [00:52:00] good enough and it’s affecting the company’s growth, the company’s trajectory, that’s not good enough. You’ve got to put the company first. [00:52:05] So, for example, if and the truth is, I say this to our team the whole time, if I’m not a good enough managing [00:52:10] director, or if Marissa is not a good enough marketeer or head of brand, [00:52:15] if Teddy’s not a good enough ops and sales person, we’ll hire above them. Because my life is invested [00:52:20] in this business, all my life savings are invested in this business. I’m not putting that at risk because of [00:52:25] I don’t want to upset someone.

Payman Langroudi: But it happens. You know, it comes to appraisals. Someone [00:52:30] says something like, my partner’s lost his job, my mortgage [00:52:35] is doubled, and the reasons for a for a pay rise [00:52:40] come down to family reasons. I need more money. I need more money. [00:52:45] Yeah, and a family situation. You really empathise with that person. You think, well, this person’s been here for [00:52:50] 12 years. Yeah, they need more money. You know, I’ve got to be loyal. They’ve been [00:52:55] loyal to me. I’ve got to be loyal back to them. When it’s a sports pro sports team, well, it’s the [00:53:00] best person in the job to do the right thing. And meritocracy when it comes [00:53:05] to pay rises and so forth. And meritocracy, in the end, is what’s correct for a company. But, you know, [00:53:10] the funny thing is, I really wanted it to be a family. Yeah, I really did, you know, and [00:53:15] it’s tough. Your practice is very much like a family.

Rhona Eskander: Kind of. I was about to say like, the thing [00:53:20] is, is that I think people get really obsessed with the idea of culture within company. And I think it’s like the super [00:53:25] in vogue thing to be like, it is all about the culture. And like you said, it’s great, it’s important, [00:53:30] and culture is important 100%. But like you said, you know, you have to [00:53:35] recognise that dynamics have to be healthy, but not so that it interferes with the production [00:53:40] of work. And that’s a really.

Payman Langroudi: Hard needle we’re dancing on, you.

Rhona Eskander: Know. But that’s but that’s, that’s the dance [00:53:45] that you’re constantly playing. I think, you know, the dance that you’re dancing in my business. [00:53:50] Like I’m quite a lax BOC boss in the sense that, like, I’m very chilled. I’ve just recently got diagnosed [00:53:55] with ADHD, so now they understand like my like, certain like ways of like thinking. And [00:54:00] I’m, I’m not the, you know, archetypal like CEO that’s going to be [00:54:05] like super strict and everything like that. But I really I think I’ve always known [00:54:10] I’ve had ADHD even though I’d never been diagnosed. I think someone five years ago had said it to me, and then everyone [00:54:15] around me is like, you’ve definitely got it. And I think that I’d managed it subconsciously as a child. And as you know, [00:54:20] like a lot of women are very good at concealing it because I always knew from a young age that the way that [00:54:25] I manage it is delegation. So like, I am the biggest advocate for delegating [00:54:30] where you can. Marissa. Yeah. So people are like, how do you manage like a team of 30 people run [00:54:35] a podcast and, you know, do all your social media everything. [00:54:40] And I just, you know, I’ve actually I’m just really good at picking the right people for the [00:54:45] job. You know, like, now I have an amazing operations manager. She’s expensive. [00:54:50] But I was like, unless the building’s going on fire. Yeah. Do not stress [00:54:55] me out about anything. Because I realised I was so incredibly stressed all the time. And now, like, my work life [00:55:00] balance is just amazing. And she basically runs the show, you know, essentially with me doing [00:55:05] all the stuff that I’m good at, the branding and the marketing and everything like that.

Levi Levenfiche: Hiring’s that’s the thing about hiring [00:55:10] is at the beginning, you just basically pick from the people who are crazy enough to join you and who you can [00:55:15] afford, which is usually young people out of university. Yeah. And then as the business gets to a point where you can actually afford the best people, [00:55:20] you have to, it’s really difficult because you look at your team and you say, this person’s [00:55:25] been with us, as you said, really loyal for the last 2 or 3 years, and they’re brilliant at their job. [00:55:30] But are they the person that’s going to take us from here to 30, 40, 50 million in sales next year? [00:55:35] And if they’re not, then you’ve got to be cutthroat and you’ve got to make decisions. And that’s where egos [00:55:40] can I find it.

Payman Langroudi: One of the hardest parts of business. Yeah. Where you’re telling someone that [00:55:45] you’re going to let them go, even though they’ve been fantastically loyal and put [00:55:50] their life on the line. And I asked her this, you know, from Pearl eye, [00:55:55] and he’s had $2 billion companies, right? And I asked him, I [00:56:00] said, you know, have you ever had to do that? And he went, every single person I’ve ever fired is that person. [00:56:05] Yeah. Because by the time I get to fire them, they would have been fired [00:56:10] ages ago if it was for any other reason, you know. And it’s just like, you know, I lost a bit of [00:56:15] innocence there. Yeah.

Levi Levenfiche: It’s really hard.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got investors now? Like further [00:56:20] investors.

Levi Levenfiche: So we’ve only raised money once beyond Dragon’s Den. And that was from [00:56:25] Steven’s fund. So Steven Bartlett’s got a fund called Flight Fund, and the investors behind it are mostly [00:56:30] exited entrepreneurs. So Albert, who’s the founder of grenade, the protein, um, [00:56:35] James Watt, the founder of BrewDog, is an investor in Steven’s Fund and many other people. He [00:56:40] invested £1 million into our business in February, March of this [00:56:45] year. And otherwise it’s been we’ve been profitable since very, very early on. So I managed to build [00:56:50] it through cash flow and through the savings we had, and we haven’t had to dilute too much. And we [00:56:55] own 90% of our business. And so.

Payman Langroudi: So have you now got those [00:57:00] professionals on each. You haven’t hired those people yet.

Levi Levenfiche: Working on it. It’s [00:57:05] really hard to find. I want to find the best people in the world. But then [00:57:10] it’s difficult because you want to find people who are also happy to roll their sleeves up and not think that [00:57:15] they’re the best, and that they have room to grow, and they can also get stuck in. [00:57:20] You don’t want to hire someone who’s above it. Like I’ve spoken to, for example, we were hiring in. We’ve just hired [00:57:25] a head of marketing. She’s brilliant. She starts in five weeks. But I looked at a bunch of people before [00:57:30] that, and they maybe had great backgrounds, like training from Mars or Danone or Estee [00:57:35] Lauder, like, amazing CVS. But actually, when you get to that point in your career where [00:57:40] you’ve done like ten years, you think you’re above all the stuff that comes in a Start-Up. I don’t [00:57:45] want that. We need people who like, believe and want to be there and want to be the first people to take the bins out. [00:57:50]

Rhona Eskander: They need to be malleable as well, because I think also we’ve we’ve had people on the team that have had this incredible [00:57:55] experience in these CVS, but they don’t also recognise that as Start-Ups, you don’t have the budgets [00:58:00] that Estee Lauder do. You don’t have the budgets that all these other companies do. So I think that’s what made that [00:58:05] what is what can make it really challenging as well for people that come into Start-Ups, because they’re not used [00:58:10] to the budget aspect of things, which has also been quite an interesting thing to navigate. [00:58:15] So what’s the future for Perfect Head?

Levi Levenfiche: The future is we’ve [00:58:20] just launched these products here in front of us in Holland and Barrett. So this one flavour is off screen, but [00:58:25] there’s seven new flavoured matcha powders. All it is is, um, ceremonial [00:58:30] grade matcha, um and natural flavourings from coconut sugar and coconut [00:58:35] milk to make it froth. It’s very straightforward. You put it in milk, you shake it and [00:58:40] it’s a matcha latte so that my favourite flavour is the mint, uh, which is [00:58:45] available online. But vanilla, for example, has been around for like two weeks. It’s an amazingly online. Um, [00:58:50] we also are about to launch. They are available online and [00:58:55] in Holland and Barrett Nespresso pods. So the whole concept is making matcha easy. Matcha made easy. [00:59:00] Love it. People don’t like drinking matcha because it’s either difficult to make at home or they find it expensive.

Payman Langroudi: I bought [00:59:05] Nespresso pods 2 or 3 years ago. It just kept exploding in my machine.

Levi Levenfiche: I’ll send you some. [00:59:10] It didn’t explode.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, I’m. Honestly, I have a lot of espressos because of the machine. [00:59:15] Yeah. Because of how quickly. You know, that’s.

Levi Levenfiche: The whole thing. People want to make magic. They want to whisk it. But we [00:59:20] brought the price down so it’s accessible from a price. And now we’re bringing down, like, the simplicity of how to produce it. I made a matcha [00:59:25] in here before we started, and the whole concept is bringing matcha to the masses, [00:59:30] make it more accessible and then growing the business. I want to double the business in the next 12 months.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing. [00:59:35] And have you thought about an exit yet?

Payman Langroudi: Um, it’s a bit early on. The dark.

Levi Levenfiche: Days? [00:59:40] Yeah. In the depths of winter, when you’re like, fuck this and you’re really tired [00:59:45] and it’s 9:00 at night and you’re in the office and you’re dealing with some shit problem. Um, yeah. [00:59:50] You’re like, can someone come and just buy us? Um, but I think that happens. I [00:59:55] think we’ll start getting approached if we keep growing at the same rate in the next 12 months, if anyone’s listening and wants to [01:00:00] buy us, DM me. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Okay.

Levi Levenfiche: I think [01:00:05] it’s I mean, we play with this, the concept of founders. Otherwise we should grow this [01:00:10] business for the next 20, 30 or 40 years as our baby, or whether we should grow it for 3 or 4 years and sell [01:00:15] it. So, I don’t know, I think we’re just riding the wave and see where it goes.

Rhona Eskander: I love that so much.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:00:20] the the concept of you get the caffeine high but you don’t [01:00:25] get the caffeine wine.

Levi Levenfiche: So matcha has an amino acid in it called l-theanine. And [01:00:30] L-theanine regulates the way in which caffeine enters your bloodstream. So with coffee, it just like I [01:00:35] mean, I used to drink coffee like you take one sip and you’re, like, buzzing. Yeah, same with Red bull. Um, [01:00:40] match has l-theanine. So you take, you drink it and it kind of regulates how it goes into your bloodstream. And [01:00:45] instead of getting this, you get like a smoother caffeination, which means that you don’t move up and down. Yeah. Which means you don’t [01:00:50] have the same crash. Right?

Payman Langroudi: Oh I see.

Levi Levenfiche: So it’s it’s changed a lot of people’s lives. And the messages [01:00:55] we get from people who have ADHD or anxiety, it really is having an impact on people’s lives. And those messages that we get [01:01:00] from moms who have given matcha to their teenage daughters who are starting university but can’t [01:01:05] study because of their anxiety, or their and their and their issues with coffee are super meaningful [01:01:10] to us. So on those dark nights at 9 p.m., when you want to just go home and cry and [01:01:15] you get a DM on Instagram from a mum with that kind of story, it makes it all worthwhile. [01:01:20]

Payman Langroudi: Now, I noticed that for you, you know? Ag1.

Levi Levenfiche: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. They’re gigantic. Right? [01:01:25] Ag1 is now on some of their ads they’re selling. Don’t get the high [01:01:30] and the drop of on other ads. They’re going for anti-aging. Yeah.

Levi Levenfiche: Defy age. [01:01:35]

Payman Langroudi: Defy on other ads. They’re going for just what they are like, which is a supplement thing. And so that sort [01:01:40] of side sideways move away from and we saw it with the dirty. [01:01:45] Yeah. I mean they’ve got one coffee for skin, one for alertness, one for brain.

Rhona Eskander: I’ve [01:01:50] been saying this for a really long time and no one ever believes me. Okay, so for the past like six [01:01:55] years, I had also said exactly the same about Parler. People [01:02:00] are driven by different values onto why the the [01:02:05] business is the way that it is. You know, for example, like Parler, our primary focus was the environment [01:02:10] being like plastic free and what that does. And also [01:02:15] we recognised as we developed the product that people were really interested [01:02:20] into the anti-aging and health benefits that people really they [01:02:25] prefer. Sadly, I think human beings to invest in themselves first and foremost [01:02:30] than like the environment, for example. And you know, when we talk about like the naturally [01:02:35] whitening element or the anti-aging element of the hydroxyapatite, [01:02:40] you know, especially for my platform, because I see that people buy into that, you know, they really, [01:02:45] really do invest in that. And there’s been a huge movement as well within dentistry [01:02:50] as a whole, where these biological dentists are coming on and, you know, making these huge [01:02:55] claims about the connection of certain products, the mouth [01:03:00] and the body, the whole body as a whole. And some of it is true, but they’re really like monopolising on it. [01:03:05] So I think, you know, there is there is a huge interest that human beings are interested in their bodies. Can [01:03:10] I ask you two questions?

Levi Levenfiche: If you have time. Yeah. Purple toothpaste. I get hit with ads the whole time, is it? [01:03:15] I use purple things in my hair when I was blonde at work.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a it’s a brilliant product. It’s a brilliant product [01:03:20] because the moment you open it, it clicks well, the moment you put it on, you see something. [01:03:25] But 30s later, it’s all gone.

Levi Levenfiche: So it’s rubbish.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. I mean, I wouldn’t say like, for example, [01:03:30] I don’t think it causes harm. I think, you know, that’s the most important thing. But ultimately, will it make your teeth white whiter? [01:03:35] What people don’t like hearing is 30s. What people don’t like hearing is it [01:03:40] is professional whitening products. Done done done. Enlightened. Like, you know, it’s professional whitening products. The only thing that’s going to get [01:03:45] your teeth truly, truly white. Anything else will help. That will. All that stuff helps remove stain, but it’s not [01:03:50] going to make any kind of huge difference. Um.

Levi Levenfiche: On dentistry, by the way. So I had my [01:03:55] teeth. I told you this when we had dinner. I had my teeth bonded the top ones, [01:04:00] and it changed my life. My teeth weren’t even that bad before. Mac. I told you [01:04:05] who was on the show was my orthodontist growing up. He’s a great guy. Gave [01:04:10] me braces. Teeth are perfect. I didn’t like how they looked. They were just a bit small in my mouth. Super [01:04:15] self-conscious about it. I got bonding. I mean, I’m smiling so much more. [01:04:20] I’m way happier. It has a massive impact. So, like, the work you guys do on smile is so [01:04:25] important. And I honestly can’t recommend focusing. Who was.

Payman Langroudi: The dentist? Who did the bonding?

Levi Levenfiche: Oh, [01:04:30] was he here? It’s on. No, it’s on Fitzroy Street. I don’t know what you [01:04:35] said. Yeah. Uh, image dental. It’s called. She’s a really nice woman. [01:04:40] I live around there. So I went in there and I gave her the business and. Super nice.

Payman Langroudi: Image dental. [01:04:45]

Levi Levenfiche: Image dental. Check it out. Check out these guys first. But, um, it makes [01:04:50] such a difference to your mental state. Being able to smile and not be like.

Rhona Eskander: You know what? I think, [01:04:55] you know, we’re really lucky because we are in a game where we recognise it has such an impact. And I [01:05:00] did a post about this on LinkedIn, but I had a vision about ten years ago [01:05:05] of really displaying a different idea to the media and the press about what dentists do, because [01:05:10] at the time, the narrative was constantly about us being butchers or ripping people off or [01:05:15] this negativity. And I was the first dentist, one of the first dentists to really approach [01:05:20] the media and press and journalists and be like, hey, actually, this is what we do. Can I offer you this treatment? See how you feel? [01:05:25] And they recognised that it was a buzzy commodity, but also it made people feel good at the same time. [01:05:30] And I think we’ve really recognising it. Conversely, though, there is a real problem with body dysmorphia [01:05:35] as well, and people have become really obsessed in every way, shape and form, you know, with their teeth, [01:05:40] etc.. So that’s, you know, been a challenge. But teeth is.

Levi Levenfiche: Like a really accessible. It’s kind of like a no brainer. [01:05:45] It’s like it’s so with body image issues and social media is awful for it [01:05:50] because we are like pedalling this perfect body that really no one has. And it’s [01:05:55] hugely AI generated anyway. But with teeth it’s I mean, the cost aside, if you can afford [01:06:00] it, it’s a no brainer because it’s it’s not doing permanent damage to [01:06:05] your to your body. You’re not having to like go to the gym for a year to get that body you as long [01:06:10] as you look after them, you don’t. There’s not that much maintenance. It’s like a no brainer. I’m obsessed with it. And [01:06:15] and like, I want to get all my other my teeth done.

Rhona Eskander: Great, great. Music. Music. Music.

[VOICE]: Bonuses.

Payman Langroudi: Bonuses [01:06:20] for sure. I’ve got one final question. Anything. What would be your biggest mistake [01:06:25] that you’ve made in this journey? What comes [01:06:30] to mind?

Levi Levenfiche: The one thing that comes to mind is a is a mistake I think we’re making right [01:06:35] now, which I struggle with, is I don’t think we’re [01:06:40] thinking big enough.

Payman Langroudi: It’s always an issue, always an issue.

Levi Levenfiche: I want to think [01:06:45] there are days where I’m like, what are we doing? Why are we worrying about the small things? Like, we’ve got to think bigger. Like. [01:06:50]

Rhona Eskander: Let’s not sweat the small stuff.

Levi Levenfiche: Let’s not talk about 30 million. Let’s talk about 100 million.

Payman Langroudi: Someone [01:06:55] in the business needs to be saying that. And then someone in the business needs to be making sure.

Levi Levenfiche: We had an amazing [01:07:00] girl in finance who keeps us all level headed. But I want to think really big and irrationally [01:07:05] big. Because if you look at the greatest entrepreneurs of all time across any industry, like Steve Jobs, he [01:07:10] was absolutely off his rocker and people would have said, you’re crazy [01:07:15] in what you build. You’re trying to build personal computers that are way more expensive, that are [01:07:20] way more beautiful than anything else, but way more expensive and out of people’s price range. Look what he built, [01:07:25] right? So we’ve got to think differently. Think bigger, think crazy.

Payman Langroudi: Um, where do you think would be [01:07:30] the next move away from matcha? Have you thought of that?

Levi Levenfiche: Uh, in our products, [01:07:35] I mean, we it’s healthy energy on the on the cans of matcha. On on the powders. [01:07:40] I think we’ll look at. Although I don’t really want to because it’s very saturated, like energy [01:07:45] bars. Yeah, I was going.

Rhona Eskander: To say that makes sense, but I haven’t seen matcha energy bars, to be fair. We speak.

Levi Levenfiche: We get approached by [01:07:50] a lot of brands who want to do collabs with a chocolate bar with ombre. We’re looking at a couple other products, but [01:07:55] um, the other thing is like, like matcha. Plus, [01:08:00] what else can you do? The ag model of greens or all in one [01:08:05] supplement? In some sense, that’s something I think supplement will look at. Yeah, we talked about I mean, matcha is very versatile. [01:08:10] We could do it in pills. We could do it in gels. You can do it. Do it in espresso pods. We’ve just launched like [01:08:15] 12 new products. So let’s get those ones over the line and worry about what’s next. And like six months maybe. [01:08:20]

[VOICE]: Amazing.

Rhona Eskander: Levi, it’s been so incredible talking to you. I’m so grateful you took time out of [01:08:25] your busy schedule to talk to us, and I’m definitely going to be ordering a load of [01:08:30] these stuff, so just.

Levi Levenfiche: Yeah, we’ll send you some. Just whatever you need.

Payman Langroudi: Wise beyond your years. It’s nice. It’s nice to hear [01:08:35] how.

Rhona Eskander: Levelheaded, you know, literally like like, how is he? 29 I was a child at 29, [01:08:40] you know. Um, but yeah. Thank you so much.

Levi Levenfiche: Thank you. Appreciate your time. Thanks, guys.

Payman Langroudi: Talk about it. The whole point of this is talking about it. Yes, true.

Giovanni Martino: The reason why I’m getting upset [00:00:05] is because the NHS has a great potential, but it’s [00:00:10] an unexpressed in dentistry. It’s true because it’s [00:00:15] where I learned treatment planning and I a [00:00:20] lot of people were putting pressure on me. Patients manager and I was [00:00:25] I was mentee. So the mentor. Et cetera. Et cetera. Yeah. Uh, and I had [00:00:30] the strength of not compromising my dentistry. Uh huh. What [00:00:35] I mean is, I was not the as good as today, but I [00:00:40] was putting the rubber down.

Payman Langroudi: You were doing things right?

Giovanni Martino: Yes. In the right, I was taking pictures. I was [00:00:45] taking.

Payman Langroudi: Making no money. Right.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:50] is Dental Leaders, the [00:00:55] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:01:00] Your hosts Payman Langroudi [00:01:05] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to [00:01:10] welcome Giovanni Martino onto the podcast. I first met Giovanni in [00:01:15] Bristol. Yes, on mini spa makeover. Correct? Um, but [00:01:20] also, uh, working with Alfonso and Massimo where you were the correct director [00:01:25] of the Delta.

Giovanni Martino: Correct?

Payman Langroudi: Academy. Yes. Which is like a [00:01:30] getting some of the top guys in Italy to come and teach. Yeah. In [00:01:35] Bristol.

Giovanni Martino: The Delta is, uh, one [00:01:40] of my is still one of my dream jobs [00:01:45] because, uh, what I do there is, um, organise [00:01:50] the study club, but more specifically [00:01:55] connecting people. So I contacted the guys that these guys coming to [00:02:00] speak and, uh, come to here, come to have fun, basically. [00:02:05] Then we, we we drink. So we got drunk at [00:02:10] the end of the day, uh, and, uh, fun fact, I, I, [00:02:15] I met a patient just out of the Delta, um, headquarter [00:02:20] and they say, oh, but what are you doing here? No, we are doing this this [00:02:25] study club. I was trying to explain what was a study club. And I sum it up [00:02:30] like it’s a room full of dentists that is getting drunk [00:02:35] and they’re getting drunk. And he said, this is exactly how I imagined the [00:02:40] hell in a room full of dentists drunk. But [00:02:45] yeah, that’s what happened.

Payman Langroudi: I imagine you also learn a lot by attending [00:02:50] all of that, right? Because I say.

Giovanni Martino: That very loudly. Because that’s [00:02:55] the reason why I do it. I, I, I learn from the speakers, of course, [00:03:00] but also from the, the guys that come to attend to the to the study club. Yeah. [00:03:05] Yeah, I learned a lot. Even if it’s in pills. Yeah, but there is [00:03:10] where the tips are coming from.

Payman Langroudi: Are you teaching on it as well or are you just organising it? [00:03:15]

Giovanni Martino: I’m organising it. Um, the reason why I’m [00:03:20] not the kind of person yet or like that kind of [00:03:25] philosophy, like constitutionally that, uh, has [00:03:30] that kind of confidence to say, now I’m teaching you something [00:03:35] that you didn’t know or like, I’m going to change your career [00:03:40] or whatever. I’m not that kind of, you know, you [00:03:45] see, a.

Payman Langroudi: Bit young for it, right?

Giovanni Martino: I’m 31.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you look younger. [00:03:50] You look younger than 31.

Giovanni Martino: Thank you very much.

Payman Langroudi: Although, although these days people are teaching straight out of university.

Giovanni Martino: Exactly. [00:03:55] And I don’t understand. I mean, of course you can learn from everybody. Don’t get me wrong. You can learn [00:04:00] also from me, but, uh, I’m I’m I will I will [00:04:05] probably do it in a in a second moment of my life. I’m in a second stage of my career. But [00:04:10] at the moment, I’m not the kind of person who say, you know, I know how to do this. [00:04:15] I’m going to teach it to you.

Payman Langroudi: You’re more humble than that.

Giovanni Martino: I actually in the learning curve still. [00:04:20] So I don’t want to teach you anything that.

Payman Langroudi: Annoys me a bit when you talk to a young [00:04:25] dentist and they say, I want to teach, and you say, well, you know.

Giovanni Martino: He’s [00:04:30] it’s very nice to have that kind of ambition, don’t get me wrong. But, [00:04:35] um, but and I love connecting. I love [00:04:40] staying with people. I love speaking in front of a crowd. I’ve done some lectures there [00:04:45] as well. Um, no lecture talks. Yeah, but, uh, I’m [00:04:50] not I’m not the kind of person to say, today I’m going to do a course. I’m going to put down [00:04:55] a course. Yeah, I can do some stuff, but not not.

Payman Langroudi: But your CV is quite impressive for someone [00:05:00] of your age. Oh. Thank you. Um, from what I could see of it, there was a lot of endo [00:05:05] in there. Yeah, I lost a lot of digital.

Giovanni Martino: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And implants too.

Giovanni Martino: I did, [00:05:10] I did the Alphonso’s course with, uh, with placing implants. I placed the implant in that [00:05:15] course. Um, but I didn’t have the chance to place it yet, [00:05:20] as I would like to. Um, not not really. I [00:05:25] don’t want to become an implant ologist.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the thing. Implants is almost an all or nothing, isn’t it? It’s one of [00:05:30] those areas.

Giovanni Martino: Can I tell you a little thing that I’m starting [00:05:35] to believing into? The the. [00:05:40] There is a problem in this country. I mean, probably this is not the right way [00:05:45] of saying it, but, uh, the Initialisation uh, [00:05:50] field uh, is difficult to access. Exactly [00:05:55] as you say. The implant is, uh, all in [00:06:00] all, you do implant or you don’t do implants. Uh, I [00:06:05] I’m not I’m not a huge fan of this kind of also. And I’m not a huge fan of, say, I [00:06:10] don’t Leonardo. Uh, I believe more in the.

Payman Langroudi: Generalist with an with [00:06:15] an interest.

Giovanni Martino: Not even super general, super [00:06:20] general practitioner. So people that, for example, I love doing endo [00:06:25] and I love doing high standard. I love I love doing composite and [00:06:30] I love doing high standard. I don’t I love doing indirect restoration [00:06:35] and I love doing in high standard. I don’t love doing denture, but I do it as [00:06:40] as better as I can. Uh, but yeah. And orthodontics. [00:06:45] I like doing orthodontics and I try to do my best and whitening, [00:06:50] I try to do my best and etc. etc.. An implant of course. Implants. You need to know a little [00:06:55] bit more of all the fields that you need [00:07:00] to know a lot of period. You need to know a lot of procedure. You need to know a bit of everything to put [00:07:05] your feet in implants. So you need to be cautious. But yeah, this is the.

Payman Langroudi: More traditional [00:07:10] way of looking at it, right? Back in the day, that’s that’s what people used to do. But these [00:07:15] days you do get young dentists saying, I only want to do x, Y or Z.

Giovanni Martino: That’s [00:07:20] the vertical.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the reason that you believe in this generalising.

Giovanni Martino: Uh. That’s [00:07:25] pretty. It’s not about, uh, um, so sorry. The [00:07:30] question is what the reason why I believe in the generalised super is I call it super [00:07:35] dental general practitioner. Like, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Because there’s more interesting.

Giovanni Martino: Uh, [00:07:40] no, I think that we get into a level of knowledge [00:07:45] and skills technique that we can learn, uh, that [00:07:50] give us the, the, the actually [00:07:55] the skills of referring out very little amount of jobs, extreme cases. [00:08:00] Um, something that, for example, you are not skilled to do. [00:08:05] You didn’t learn to do. For example, I’m speaking about like, uh, [00:08:10] full arch or something quite.

Payman Langroudi: A niche, a [00:08:15] paragraph.

Giovanni Martino: Or a paragraph, a paragraph. Actually, it’s very easy to do. Is it? Yes. [00:08:20] The. Yeah. The point is that we see it as, oh my gosh, [00:08:25] that’s going to be very difficult. If you speak with the patients and you spend time with [00:08:30] them, which not a lot of people does. Yeah. Uh, yeah. They [00:08:35] are going to accept the fact that you are not a specialist, but you are going to do [00:08:40] what they want.

Payman Langroudi: Particularly if you’ve got mentors. I mean, I think mentoring.

Giovanni Martino: Is a essential. [00:08:45] It’s essential.

Payman Langroudi: It’s essential if you want to be that kind of dentist. Right. Because if you’ve got [00:08:50] someone like Massimo around the corner or Alfonso around the corner, sure take on a huge [00:08:55] job and knock on the door when, when when you don’t know what to do. But the guy sitting in a [00:09:00] practice in, you know, outside Birmingham, he hasn’t got he hasn’t he [00:09:05] hasn’t got. These experts agree.

Giovanni Martino: But your mentor doesn’t [00:09:10] need to be next door. Be all the time. Agree what what [00:09:15] the mentor needs to need to give you is the skills [00:09:20] of, uh, or the knowledge of, of case selection. Mhm. So [00:09:25] you need to know exactly what is the case that [00:09:30] is most likely to be successful, rather than a case that [00:09:35] you don’t know. And you try and you fail. Yeah. Uh, even if [00:09:40] My best investment in dentistry [00:09:45] and I can put the hand on the fire is the camera. And [00:09:50] the reason why I like, I think, is the best investment that I’ve done [00:09:55] in my life. It was actually Alfonso’s graduate [00:10:00] graduating present, my first camera, and I started doing [00:10:05] my picture with that. Nice. Uh, but the reason why I like that [00:10:10] I actually invested a lot in it is because I can actually [00:10:15] see what I’ve done with the something that is objective [00:10:20] and is something that is stay in the time. In fact, [00:10:25] I always say that the one that I’m going to do is the best restoration [00:10:30] that I can give, because I always improve from [00:10:35] my mistakes.

Payman Langroudi: And by looking at photos. By looking. [00:10:40]

Giovanni Martino: At photos. That’s the the first thing that you need to do that. That I’m doing. [00:10:45] Luckily, I have a lot of, uh, SD cards in my bag. [00:10:50] So that’s what I.

Payman Langroudi: Was going to ask you. Is that in a day, are you taking literally like 50 photos [00:10:55] a day?

Giovanni Martino: At the beginning, yes. But now I have the I, I select a little bit more [00:11:00] which one I’m going to, which case I’m going to take the pictures of. Even if, [00:11:05] even if the the case is not like it’s not, I know [00:11:10] that it’s not going to be Instagram level. Uh, I take the [00:11:15] pictures. The reason why is because I can show to the patients what was underneath [00:11:20] the restoration that they had and, um, and [00:11:25] what are the limitations that I have to build up the tools if in case [00:11:30] of, of of composite in case of crowns or. Yeah. [00:11:35] That’s the optional doing pictures. The [00:11:40] rest is needed. For example, I think about orthodontics. I do a lot of, uh, orthodontics, [00:11:45] I do a lot of lighting, I do a lot of whitening. And you need a picture. [00:11:50] You cannot go ahead.

Payman Langroudi: And do real orthodontics or I do.

Giovanni Martino: I do fix cases [00:11:55] as well. Yeah. Because I’ve done a master’s degree in Italy with, uh, yeah. With [00:12:00] uh, with orthodontist. And they taught us how to place place, [00:12:05] um, brackets and, um, [00:12:10] yeah, a few patients say me yes, because it’s slightly cheaper and yeah, [00:12:15] they don’t mind brackets. So I am doing actually I’m still finishing [00:12:20] it. And in that case I have multiple mentors that are not next door [00:12:25] that I’m telling you in this. Now you need to do that. Now [00:12:30] you need to do that in one month. Do that. So that’s [00:12:35] how important is having a mentor and give them presence as well? Of [00:12:40] course. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So you’ve been in the UK now for five years, correct? [00:12:45] Is it five? Yeah. How many years did you practice in Italy?

Giovanni Martino: Oh, [00:12:50] barely. Not even one. Oh, really? Yeah. I barely worked in Italy. [00:12:55] If you think if you consider working as a [00:13:00] paid remuneration. Remunerative, remunerative [00:13:05] occupation. I was not getting paid anything down there in Italy [00:13:10] because there’s that toxic, uh, behaviour [00:13:15] from the boss. So they say you need to learn first, which is fine, [00:13:20] but I was actually finishing university, and my mother was not happy to pay any more [00:13:25] for.

Payman Langroudi: For everything.

Giovanni Martino: For everything. And I say I need to make some money. So [00:13:30] if you are not paying me, I need to leave. So I came [00:13:35] here because of course, it was a necessity. Actually, I came in 2018, [00:13:40] at the end of 2018 and before to get the qualification [00:13:45] in the UK, the GDC registration number, I’ve done [00:13:50] reception and and um, uh [00:13:55] trainers proudly reason because [00:14:00] I was I was paid minimum wage. Uh, I [00:14:05] was anyway be able to pay the rent because I was sharing a house [00:14:10] at the time. Uh, I was studying English to get the qualification. I [00:14:15] was speaking at the phone with people to book the appointments, learning [00:14:20] how to use. Yeah. Oh, that’s that was. That was very difficult. [00:14:25] And of course, doing nurses, uh, the nursing with someone [00:14:30] that then become my colleague. What? Why? [00:14:35] The reason why, I’m saying proudly. Because [00:14:40] there are a lot of dentists and they are next to me, next door to me, [00:14:45] that are complaining all the time about patients, about complaining [00:14:50] about everything, about also the money to the nurses. And that’s [00:14:55] something that, uh oh my gosh, I can I, I you [00:15:00] cannot do that because you are in a privileged [00:15:05] position. You for sure were more lucky [00:15:10] than, than the nurse in life because you were able [00:15:15] to study something that is super interesting. And even [00:15:20] if you work part time, you make more money than them. And, [00:15:25] uh, so you need to know where the people [00:15:30] that come that works with you, for you to, to make you charge what [00:15:35] you’re charging to press the button there are struggling with uh, [00:15:40] and that’s something that, uh, a lot of people, because we live in a bubble, [00:15:45] we live in a bubble that doesn’t make see [00:15:50] through the bubble that we live.

Giovanni Martino: Yeah. And but that’s something happened [00:15:55] also with patients because we live in this bubble. Dentist, [00:16:00] dentist. We met each other multiple times because [00:16:05] you are in you are in London. I am in Bristol. But the world of dentistry [00:16:10] is very small. We live in a bubble and we know that we can [00:16:15] afford going on holiday. We know that we can afford a nice car, we know that we can [00:16:20] afford the mortgage. And. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Even if nowadays, not [00:16:25] even that is that Granted. Uh. But the patients [00:16:30] have a struggle life that when they when they sit on our chair, [00:16:35] they are like, oh, my gosh, how much is going to charge me? How [00:16:40] hurt, how much is going to hurt me? And and this is the reason why [00:16:45] they hate us and we don’t spend time [00:16:50] with them. We don’t know our patients. So I really think that the, the reason [00:16:55] why of having a great conversion rate is spending [00:17:00] time with them, knowing them how I can [00:17:05] do the same treatment plan to a builder. Don’t [00:17:10] get me wrong about the job. I don’t want to be any with the with the honour of being a builder or to a [00:17:15] teacher, right? Because the builder can [00:17:20] take some time off the teacher only in summer or afternoon. [00:17:25] So and knowing what they do, knowing what [00:17:30] they their lifestyle is make you. Mhm. [00:17:35] Um, make you create [00:17:40] a custom made treatment plan that is more, much likely more compatible than [00:17:45] this is the, the bills that you need to pay. This is one, two, three, four, five fillings [00:17:50] for sure. And the the reason why I’m talking too much probably [00:17:55] you would like to ask your podcast.

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Giovanni Martino: I podcast [00:18:00] with my patients. So I ask open questions like you did now and they [00:18:05] start speaking to me. Yeah, they I start with what did you what did what did you do today? [00:18:10] And they start thinking, they start saying, uh, nothing. Today is my day off. [00:18:15] Uh, so what what do you do in the other days? Or, like walking [00:18:20] the dog? So I start meeting them. And the fun thing is [00:18:25] that I came across two lovely stories. Yeah. [00:18:30] Do you know the Aardman, the the film production? Oh, yeah. [00:18:35] That is based in Bristol. Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of the artists is my patient, and I work [00:18:40] in a dental practice. This is a super general practitioner. And the practice, I mean, like, is [00:18:45] what’s the name of the character? The the the one that they do the Muppets. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What’s it [00:18:50] called?

Giovanni Martino: Aardman. Oh, they did a lot of movies. They did like the, the.

Payman Langroudi: Famous [00:18:55] one where they won an Oscar and all that.

Giovanni Martino: Yeah. They did. Yeah, I guess. Which one? I don’t remember the [00:19:00] dog and the postman. Yeah, yeah. But also chicken run. The running [00:19:05] chicken. Chicken run. Yeah. So yeah. They’ve done. And one of the. I say tell [00:19:10] me more, tell me more about what do you do? I don’t want to know [00:19:15] how much can you afford. Because if you work and you need to pay your endo, you [00:19:20] can save up. You can also pay in finance if you want and you can afford it. [00:19:25] So it’s very difficult nowadays to [00:19:30] don’t afford something if you work, if you don’t work, if you’re on benefit, that’s another matter. [00:19:35] That’s another kind of conversation. But if you work [00:19:40] and if you spend time with your patients, your conversion rate should be should [00:19:45] be acceptable for sure.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s very interesting what you’re saying [00:19:50] because the you know, now I’ve stopped practising 12, [00:19:55] 13 years ago, like.

Giovanni Martino: You know, I’m joking.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well, I get that quite [00:20:00] a lot. I get that quite a lot when I say it, but, but and it’s very fashionable these days to want to stop [00:20:05] being a dentist. Yeah. It’s like a, it’s a, it’s a thing people are talking about. Now, I can tell you once [00:20:10] you stop being a dentist, you come to realise really, what was it that [00:20:15] you liked and disliked about the job? Yeah. And I think it’s different for different [00:20:20] people, of course, but for me, this, that those conversations were [00:20:25] the most important part of the job for me. Yeah. The more important than [00:20:30] definitely the Meccano, you know, putting the Lego part of dentistry. Yeah, yeah. I [00:20:35] didn’t particularly enjoy treatment planning because I wasn’t very good at treatment planning. Okay. So I found it a very dangerous, difficult area. [00:20:40] I didn’t like blood very much, you know, surgery, any of that? Yeah. Yeah. I kind [00:20:45] of needed to do some some adhesive dentistry, which I did enjoy. Like you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, [00:20:50] but what I miss is people. Yeah. Humans. Yeah. And and [00:20:55] and friendships, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And and I used to work in places where, you know, [00:21:00] you’re saying the patient can’t afford it. I just work at places where the patient was many times richer than me. [00:21:05] Sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. You know, big time international banker guy. These [00:21:10] guys can teach you so much. Or the guy was, I don’t know, a journalist. Um, you know, head of head of [00:21:15] some political journalism at the feet or something.

Giovanni Martino: The guy with the amazing stories. [00:21:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And then I realised back then, and I with my dentist friends, I see it [00:21:25] now. We’re talking about any any subject at all. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever the subject is, my dentist friends [00:21:30] will say one of my patients told me that I’ve got a patient who does that and keep referring [00:21:35] to their patients. Yes. And I don’t have that resource anymore. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s the thing I [00:21:40] miss the most. Yeah.

Giovanni Martino: But the people can be also the [00:21:45] downside for many other dentists. So people patients, [00:21:50] let’s call it the right way. Yeah. Uh, can be, uh, the reason [00:21:55] why a lot of dentists leave dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Of course, of course. I mean, because because. [00:22:00]

Giovanni Martino: They don’t have that soft skill.

Payman Langroudi: And also people are kind of in the way sometimes in industry, when you’re [00:22:05] a dentist, you were turning up every day. You want to get on with the work that, you know, it’s the teeth. And suddenly [00:22:10] people are in the way of that. Yeah. But you’re right. You’re right. People who don’t have the skills and, you know, you get some people [00:22:15] who have not the best dentists in the world, but they never get [00:22:20] sued. Never.

Giovanni Martino: Never.

Payman Langroudi: Or you met them? Some people technically brilliant [00:22:25] and yet get sued all the time.

Giovanni Martino: Complaining patients.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s. [00:22:30] That’s the exact thing that you’re talking about, you know?

Giovanni Martino: Um, do you know the Woody Allen movie? Which one? [00:22:35] Um. Whatever works. I don’t know. No, [00:22:40] it’s actually one of the one of least success. Oh, really? Uh, the [00:22:45] point is, whatever works, whatever is the balance of your [00:22:50] dentistry, you cannot reach [00:22:55] the soup. I mean, like, you can be the best in something [00:23:00] vertical. Well, we were speaking about verticality of the field. I’m [00:23:05] doing dental implant and doing implant only. Or composite bonding and doing composite bonding [00:23:10] only. If you start from today, in ten years, you’ll be the best. But [00:23:15] you’re missing out. You’re missing out. Something else that [00:23:20] is speaking with the patients about periodontitis. [00:23:25] And the reason why they got the periodontitis. Because they [00:23:30] stopped smoking for, like, whatever. I mean, like, there is a lot of [00:23:35] things that is a huge field of dentistry. It really.

Payman Langroudi: Is. Which [00:23:40] bit of it do you love the most?

Giovanni Martino: Oh, well, the one that I can do without [00:23:45] with rubber dam. Oh, I. Because first of all, patients don’t talk with [00:23:50] that.

Payman Langroudi: Having said everything you just said.

Giovanni Martino: Yeah. No, [00:23:55] but.

Payman Langroudi: Once you start, you don’t want to talk anymore.

Giovanni Martino: Finally, I finished first. [00:24:00] Finished talking with them? No. I’m joking, I’m joking.

Payman Langroudi: But you were into the biomimetic. [00:24:05] Kind of. Oh, yeah?

Giovanni Martino: Yeah. Pascal man is my father. Oh, metaphorically. [00:24:10] Of course. Yes. Um, also some a guy that is called, [00:24:15] uh, Marco Veneziani. Uh, a little tip to the [00:24:20] dentists in general. If you don’t find a course that suits for [00:24:25] you, but you think that you want to know a little bit more instead [00:24:30] of wasting money to a course by a book. Uh, the one that we used [00:24:35] to do at university. I still do it. I still buy books. For example, [00:24:40] I bought the book from Pascal Magni, and I learned much more from there. [00:24:45] Uh, that for a course.

Payman Langroudi: Interestingly to say. Yeah, because a book, even the [00:24:50] most expensive book is £300.

Giovanni Martino: Exactly. And Steve is yours forever. [00:24:55] Yeah, if you keep it.

Payman Langroudi: Of course, a lot of information in that book there.

Giovanni Martino: Is the there are [00:25:00] some I call the Bibles, for example, the Pascal one or the one for [00:25:05] endodontic Retreatment Castellucci. They are Bibles [00:25:10] for what we do. Of course. Don’t offence to Jesus. Right.

Payman Langroudi: We’ll [00:25:15] get to that. We’ll get to that. We’ll get to that. Oh, my gosh. [00:25:20]

Giovanni Martino: That conversation is getting fun.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got an Italian in front of me. I’ve got to [00:25:25] bring up Jesus. Jesus. Tell me, when was [00:25:30] it when you first decided you want to look at dentistry?

Giovanni Martino: Yeah. Very good question. [00:25:35] So, um, where.

Payman Langroudi: In where in Italy were you living?

Giovanni Martino: I am [00:25:40] from Caserta. Which is.

Payman Langroudi: Where?

Giovanni Martino: Which is, uh. Imagine [00:25:45] Vasile. Yeah. That did the wrong choice in life.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:25:50]

Giovanni Martino: Uh, that’s Caserta, so [00:25:55] I’m just giving you a bit, a bit more information about it. So, [00:26:00] um, Caserta is a city half an hour from Naples. Like Versailles is from [00:26:05] Paris. Um, where there is a huge royal palace like very [00:26:10] similar to the Versailles one actually in how. But it’s not as famous as because [00:26:15] first of all, Naples is not the capital of Italy. But that’s another matter. Uh, but [00:26:20] uh, but because it’s a very difficult area nowadays, [00:26:25] um, better lately, like in the last few years. [00:26:30] But when I grew up there, it was a difficult area.

Payman Langroudi: In terms of crime.

Giovanni Martino: In terms [00:26:35] of crimes, in terms of, uh, as a kid. [00:26:40] Um, you cannot really, really see that, but it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Just normal for you.

Giovanni Martino: Right? [00:26:45] Yes. Because, for example, I remember exactly that as a kid. I was playing [00:26:50] with, uh, with, uh, nephew [00:26:55] of a boss, uh, and, [00:27:00] uh, they were untouchable. Untouchable in a way that they had to play [00:27:05] all the time. They if you were like, you know, kids fight all the time. [00:27:10] They fight like if. Yeah, you could not. They were. But [00:27:15] at the end of the day, they are amazing guys. One is a lawyer, one is [00:27:20] uh, is and they were the richest around us [00:27:25] and. Yeah. And I grew up in that kind of environment [00:27:30] where you need to know who you are talking to. Otherwise [00:27:35] you may risk something. And that’s probably the reason.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:27:40] know, culturally, Italy. I mean, I used to try and sell my [00:27:45] toothpaste in Italy at one point, and somehow the [00:27:50] cost space, there were more mouths to feed in the middle. Yeah, yeah. Somehow [00:27:55] it was like, yeah, localised distribution.

Giovanni Martino: Yeah, I get what you mean.

Payman Langroudi: And then the question of [00:28:00] like, you know, every country’s got the things that make it amazing. Yeah. And [00:28:05] the things that hold it back. Yeah, yeah. And sometimes it could. Italy is the kind of country that even if you have [00:28:10] 100 things that hold it back, the 3 or 4 things that make it amazing are worth it. You [00:28:15] know, like it’s one of those if.

Giovanni Martino: You think about as an analogy, as metaphorically, [00:28:20] dentistry. Yeah. We have really nice excellences down there in Italy. [00:28:25] Yeah. People that change the field. Yeah, yeah. But we have a lot of [00:28:30] people that are not dentists that work as a dentist. [00:28:35] Bam!

Payman Langroudi: Both the high end and the bottom end. Exactly. Yeah.

Giovanni Martino: And [00:28:40] for a person like me, for a kid like me down there. Uh, [00:28:45] yeah, I was struggling there. Uh, back to the question. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: When did you first think of becoming [00:28:50] a dentist?

Giovanni Martino: So, yes. Um, when I was like 17 or 18, [00:28:55] I was not giving a shit about dentistry. Of course, I was doing music [00:29:00] with my best friend Francesco that I say hello to him. That is only listening [00:29:05] to Dental podcast. Leaders is not a dentist. I’m joking. So no, [00:29:10] I’m joking. But I was doing music with him, I was producing, I was DJing [00:29:15] with him and electronic. Yeah. House music. Yeah. House. The house, the house. [00:29:20] Uh, and with the discrete success actually. So we were under [00:29:25] labels, we were sponsoring, we were going around playing gigs. Um, [00:29:30] but then I was, I was making some [00:29:35] money, but I was, I was see that the thing was, uh, you had [00:29:40] to grind a lot to make it happen. Uh, so, in fact, [00:29:45] in some point happened some events that made me think, I [00:29:50] love music, but it need to be a hobby for me. It cannot be professional. Otherwise I’m going [00:29:55] to hate it. And that’s the reason why I kept as a aside. I [00:30:00] do music all the time, but not as a professional, um, [00:30:05] paraprofessional. Someone told me that I am a paraprofessional music maker. All [00:30:10] right. Uh, so at the time, I was doing music all the time, [00:30:15] and my family said, what do you want to do? And, um. [00:30:20]

Payman Langroudi: Are your parents medical at all?

Giovanni Martino: No, not at all. Okay. Give a little bit [00:30:25] of background just for the people that is listening to the podcast to [00:30:30] close it right now. I grew up in a family of four sisters. My my [00:30:35] father died when I was one year and a half. Never met him. Oh, wow. Yeah. And, [00:30:40] uh, my mother grows up. Everybody has a degree, so I don’t know how [00:30:45] she did it. I am a daddy myself now. I didn’t told you. Uh, and I’m [00:30:50] struggling so much. It’s tough. Uh, my my mother. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Alone [00:30:55] with the.

Giovanni Martino: Youngest, I. I was the youngest until I was 18 years old. [00:31:00] Then my mother got married again and she did another sister of [00:31:05] mine, and now she lives with my mother. Uh, everybody else [00:31:10] is out. All right. And do you.

Payman Langroudi: Remember it being a struggle for your mother? Um. [00:31:15] Or was it just normal for you? I guess also, in Italy, the family structure is more.

Giovanni Martino: It’s [00:31:20] more compact, more cohesive. The, uh, the the struggle [00:31:25] for my mother was, uh, I think when summer [00:31:30] stuff like that. Summer holidays. Yeah. Uh, I had to go with [00:31:35] my grandmother because she was working. Because she was working.

Payman Langroudi: Just to support. She’s a she’s [00:31:40] a teacher.

Giovanni Martino: She used to be actually, uh, because he’s he’s, um, [00:31:45] he’s, uh. Um, how can I say not graduated? She’s, [00:31:50] um, in pension. Uh, she used to be a nursery teacher. So [00:31:55] imagine kids at school and kids at home. Stressful. Yeah, it’s very stressful. [00:32:00] Uh, so I don’t know how she managed. She. She made us study, [00:32:05] as. I mean, everybody, we are quite successful as family, [00:32:10] and, um. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So. Teeth. Yes. Did any of you sisters [00:32:15] go into teeth or. No. No no no.

Giovanni Martino: No. Only me.

Payman Langroudi: Only, uh.

Giovanni Martino: Because for me, I was good [00:32:20] in biology. Chemistry at school. Uh, but not very good in math. I was very [00:32:25] interested in physics. Um, so I spoke to myself, saying what [00:32:30] I want to do. I want to do something related to that. But I don’t want to do math or [00:32:35] like, physics or chemistry, something that doesn’t lead you to anything. I wanted to do something practical [00:32:40] because I am a more pragmatic person, so I wanted to do medicine. I [00:32:45] try to get into medicine, I try to get into dentistry, and I [00:32:50] try to get into that. Actually, I, I succeed to get [00:32:55] into vet veterinary school the first year that I tried because the the [00:33:00] tests down in Italy is completely different from here. Um, so in [00:33:05] fact, from a few sliding doors I was speaking with, uh, someone [00:33:10] else in another podcast called The Veterinary Vet Leaders. [00:33:15] Uh, but not Dental Leaders [00:33:20] podcast. Best post, best podcast in Camden. I will say, [00:33:25] and and consequentially London. Um, back [00:33:30] to teeth. Uh, so I tried.

Payman Langroudi: You got into vet [00:33:35] school. Why didn’t you go?

Giovanni Martino: I didn’t say anything to anybody. Oh.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t.

Giovanni Martino: I received [00:33:40] I received the email and my mother and my father in law at the time, they [00:33:45] were pushing to to for dentistry. And we had also a plan B, which was [00:33:50] if you don’t get to the to the to you. If you don’t [00:33:55] pass the tests, you go to Spain for one year and then [00:34:00] you try the next year. So with a bit of knowledge of of Dental and see if [00:34:05] you like as well, because Italy.

Payman Langroudi: Was more competitive than Spain at the time.

Giovanni Martino: Imagine that. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. [00:34:10] Imagine that when I get the, the the place I, I was very lucky [00:34:15] anyway. I am a very lucky person overall. But I was very [00:34:20] lucky. Imagine that in my classroom there were 17 people [00:34:25] in total. The full class of dentistry of my year were 17 [00:34:30] people. Wow. And the competition was about thousands of people. That was trying the test. [00:34:35] Wow. So the reason why I’m I’m very lucky person that is that [00:34:40] next year I tried, uh, in L’Aquila, which [00:34:45] is a city hit by a earthquake Strongly in 2009, [00:34:50] and I tried it in 2012. And still the university [00:34:55] was struggling to find people to go there to the university. So they open a [00:35:00] few places more. And so I get the place the day after. [00:35:05] And the difference between the exam [00:35:10] in Spain examined in Italy was totally different. Probably Spain is more similar to [00:35:15] here than how is it in Italy? The Spain exams were [00:35:20] multiple choice questions. Everything was written in [00:35:25] two weeks apart. All the exams in Italy, you know, in Italy [00:35:30] you have multiple sessions and the interview is face to face oral. [00:35:35] So it’s super fun because the studying is totally different. [00:35:40] You need to practice how to speak the subject [00:35:45] and how to explain to someone one the subject. Uh, [00:35:50] rather than understand memorising information into your head, they probably never [00:35:55] verbalise it. Um, so I love that. In fact, I succeed. [00:36:00] Quite. I was not a great student in Spain. In Italy, I succeed [00:36:05] quite badly. Never been a great student. Anyway, in school I didn’t give a fuck. [00:36:10] But. But probably because I was. I was.

Payman Langroudi: In Madrid. By yourself?

Giovanni Martino: By [00:36:15] myself? Oh my gosh, that must.

Payman Langroudi: Have been fun.

Giovanni Martino: That was very fun. It was traumatic.

Payman Langroudi: Scary [00:36:20] as well. Right?

Giovanni Martino: Um, I wanted to go out anyway, so I wanted to be, like, [00:36:25] out.

Payman Langroudi: From a good town for a young man, right?

Giovanni Martino: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I saw that. Your. You [00:36:30] want to persuade your son to go somewhere else for university?

Payman Langroudi: Leave London. [00:36:35]

Giovanni Martino: Leave London? Yeah. Somewhere else. Yeah. Do it, do it. Son of Payman.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll [00:36:40] play this back to you. Because you know what? When you’re 17, you think you know it all. [00:36:45]

Giovanni Martino: Yeah, but first of all, you can be the person that you want because nobody [00:36:50] knows you. Yeah. So you’re right.

Payman Langroudi: Invent yourself. Right.

Giovanni Martino: You reinvent yourself and you [00:36:55] can be your best, the best person that you want there. Of course, [00:37:00] then the best personality that you have is going out. For example, I was doing DJing in Madrid [00:37:05] and then I did DJing as well. I deejayed as well in, in laquila in back [00:37:10] in the, in the I was, I was, I was DJing all the time because it was my job, I was [00:37:15] making money from it. And uh, yeah, I mean, my, my [00:37:20] parents were giving me money, but not they could not afford a lot of money. [00:37:25] Uh, so I was making some money DJing. But the life of a DJ [00:37:30] is is is.

Payman Langroudi: Horrible, isn’t the life isn’t the the glamorous side of being [00:37:35] a DJ is the glamorous side of being a DJ the way you would think are all the girls trying to get with you? And [00:37:40] like, that was the.

Giovanni Martino: First reason why I get into deejaying, [00:37:45] I will say. But does it lose.

Payman Langroudi: Its specialness [00:37:50] when you’re working at, you know, doing so many? No.

Giovanni Martino: Imagine that. Uh, first of all, [00:37:55] you need to you need to prepare your DJ set all the time. You need to be [00:38:00] fresh all the time. You cannot repeat your DJ set in particular because DJ listened [00:38:05] to you. And if I listen to the same DJ set of DJ that [00:38:10] I like happened the big DJs at big DJs, I got upset. [00:38:15] So.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re constantly having to listen to new music to find all the good stuff, [00:38:20] right?

Giovanni Martino: You need to you need to put new music in your wardrobe [00:38:25] all the time.

Payman Langroudi: So that takes hours in itself.

Giovanni Martino: Exactly. In the day. Plus, [00:38:30] you don’t stop playing before 11. [00:38:35] If you’re lucky, you’re lucky. Yeah. Or, like, late in the day. Yeah. And, uh. And [00:38:40] Is a full on mind job. You [00:38:45] need to be super concentrated while you are DJing. If you didn’t sleep enough. [00:38:50]

Payman Langroudi: You mess it up.

Giovanni Martino: No, it’s just struggling. Or you need to [00:38:55] use some strong coffees or something else or [00:39:00] you’re struggling. So I was DJing, but I was deejaying operative. I was digging [00:39:05] from 6 to 10 and then home. That’s it. Uh huh. Uh, [00:39:10] and then I in fact, I specialise in doing a parody music for a parody. In [00:39:15] fact, I then I learned how to [00:39:20] be a clinical director, not clinical artistic [00:39:25] director. Sorry. Clinical director was was another month. Was [00:39:30] dentist, you know, artistic director. In fact, I’ve done producing and artistic direction [00:39:35] for a lot of projects down in Italy. Uh, and [00:39:40] this might and that is, this is my dream job. Because what I was doing, I was selecting the [00:39:45] music for eight hours, and of course, I was not doing [00:39:50] it for eight hours long. There were other DJs doing it for like, together, [00:39:55] but the music was the thing was, I’m doing this now. [00:40:00] Then I’m going to do this in 3 in 3 hours time that the BPM is going [00:40:05] to be in that way, and the music that needs to lead in that kind. [00:40:10] Yeah, yeah. And you can do. Yeah, it’s very creative and you can do [00:40:15] it for and you can apply it to the study clubs that we were speaking about. [00:40:20] I learned that thing there. I learned how to organise an event from the beginning [00:40:25] to the end there. In fact, you need to start [00:40:30] at the beginning. Start these people getting drunk. Yeah. And [00:40:35] the second bit people, the speakers just start speaking if he’s not already [00:40:40] too drunk and etc. and then it needs to be fun. The study club needs to be fun. [00:40:45] The people need to enjoy. Otherwise it’s boring. Dentistry is boring. [00:40:50] Then we need to make it glamorous. You’re making glamorous very much. Actually, thank you very much. And [00:40:55] your voice is amazing through the podcast. Can [00:41:00] I ask you some questions? Sure. How do you make. How do you end up doing podcasts? [00:41:05] I mean, what was the the reason why you started doing podcasts.

Payman Langroudi: To start with? I [00:41:10] was listening to a lot of podcasts, and then there was a sort of there was definitely a commercial [00:41:15] reason to do it. Of course, that was that was the first reason we said we [00:41:20] decided to go down a content approach on marketing. Very good. Um, and, [00:41:25] you know, the commercial side of this is really irrelevant, of course.

Giovanni Martino: Yeah. [00:41:30]

Payman Langroudi: But the idea was that we were going to pixel each of the listeners and then [00:41:35] serve adverts to that pixel and we do that. Yeah. The, the [00:41:40] fact that I’m, you know, constantly talking about enlightened in my life means it comes up. Yeah. [00:41:45] And, but now it’s turned into like a hobby. And [00:41:50] I don’t have many hobbies. I mean, like you do. Right. You’ve got music. You’ve got you’ve got.

Giovanni Martino: Now, my [00:41:55] my hobby is to be with my family now. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what is the hobby? Right. It’s something [00:42:00] you’re doing for enjoyment. Yeah. Something you’re trying to get better at? [00:42:05] Yeah. Yeah. And so I never had anything like that, you know? So for me, this [00:42:10] is the closest thing I’ve got to a hobby now. Um, so I don’t even look at the number of listens [00:42:15] or anything anymore. Yeah. No, no, not interested in that anymore.

Giovanni Martino: But you came up with a lot of amazing [00:42:20] stories. Probably. Yeah. You you only the the the fact [00:42:25] that someone is telling his stories in the podcast is the price of it.

Payman Langroudi: They’re important stories, [00:42:30] you know, that we’ve had two of our guests have passed away. Oh, really? Three of our guests [00:42:35] have passed away. And, you know, I’m really happy that we’ve got those stories. [00:42:40] Of course, you know.

Giovanni Martino: Of course.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s kind of like the the life story that you’re [00:42:45] telling me. Your dad passed away when you were one. Yeah, I mean, I [00:42:50] when you said it, I remembered I’d read it on your thing, but, you know, it wasn’t something I knew about you.

Giovanni Martino: Yeah, yeah. [00:42:55] I’m. I never met my father. Yeah. That’s something that, uh. That’s.

Payman Langroudi: How does [00:43:00] that impact your relationship with your kid? Like, are you thinking about him now all the time?

Giovanni Martino: Um, [00:43:05] then, of course, I’ve done a lot of therapy, uh, through [00:43:10] the years. I started during the pandemic because. Exactly. I was not [00:43:15] a good person down there then. Oh, my gosh, don’t let me go down there in the cave [00:43:20] in the in that cave of paranoia during the pandemic was horrible. [00:43:25] But I started doing therapy then and I realised that, um, knowing [00:43:30] only my mother. Being only with my mother, I [00:43:35] get a lot of non-natural behaviour for me because [00:43:40] I was. I’m assuming that I am very similar to my father, [00:43:45] uh, and acknowledging it [00:43:50] or just want to be in that way. I want to be [00:43:55] in that way. Uh, I feel that I am a little [00:44:00] bit my father. So with my son, I just need to. To [00:44:05] be who I am. Luckily enough.

Payman Langroudi: How old is.

Giovanni Martino: He? How old? My. [00:44:10] My son. Yeah. Six months. Oh, he’s. Yeah, I, [00:44:15] I cut a few days from practising. And this is the best, best [00:44:20] time of my life. I’m very happy to spend time with him and [00:44:25] my my partner. Because apart from that, is moving [00:44:30] so fast. It’s growing so fast that I know that it’s going away very, very [00:44:35] soon. Uh, but then, um, I want to be super present [00:44:40] for him a little bit as my father, but not was [00:44:45] not his fault was not present for me. Yeah. Uh, but, [00:44:50] yeah, I think it’s.

Payman Langroudi: A sad thing. When my uncle passed [00:44:55] away. When his daughter was two. Mm. And [00:45:00] I remembered how much he loved her. Like he loved, I think. [00:45:05] I think that he loved this girl so much. And now my cousin, he [00:45:10] she doesn’t remember her. Doesn’t remember anything about him. Doesn’t. She was two. Yeah. And it always [00:45:15] made me sad because I always remember how much he loved her. Yeah. And and the fact that he didn’t recognise [00:45:20] her. But this this connection. Now that you’re thinking about your dad, when you’re when you’re talking [00:45:25] to your kid or when you’re looking after your kid, it’s very interesting.

Giovanni Martino: I’m telling you one story. Um, [00:45:30] my mother, I don’t think, never [00:45:35] went over the. Got over it. Go over the the loss [00:45:40] of her husband. Of course. And the reason why I’m telling you [00:45:45] is because I remember doing therapy, uh, that I was a kid, [00:45:50] and I came a knowledge about the word widow, I didn’t know. What does it mean? What? [00:45:55] What did I heard somewhere, and I asked my mother. What does it mean? Widow? [00:46:00] And she reacted very badly. She started shouting at me. [00:46:05] Of course. Then I say, yeah, I mean like then she reacted very badly. [00:46:10] Back to the to the story that I was telling you. Now, [00:46:15] the reason why I think that my I am more similar to my father than to my mother, [00:46:20] and this is the reason why of the struggle that I go through my life. My [00:46:25] mother, my father, my heritage from my father, kind [00:46:30] of 200 vinyl records and [00:46:35] I play, I do DJing, yes, with digital, but [00:46:40] mainly with vinyl records. Oh, really? And he he was super [00:46:45] passionate into music. Wow. And I, I knew because [00:46:50] I knew that there was these things at home that was from him on the bookshelf [00:46:55] somewhere. Yes. And of course. But only when I started DJing [00:47:00] and producing filtered, I felt it. Yeah. And I felt [00:47:05] the passion. The passion. When you put a vinyl record [00:47:10] on and you listen to it and you go through from the beginning to the end, [00:47:15] it’s lovely. It’s a lovely thing that you do [00:47:20] with the air, because music is a vibrating, Rating. All right. Um, [00:47:25] and, uh, it’s. Yeah, it’s, uh, and I, I recently felt [00:47:30] it again because I bring all the vinyl records at home, and I have, like a nice [00:47:35] shelf of all the vinyls that I go through. I still buy vinyls. I mean, like, [00:47:40] I’m that kind of person.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of in now, isn’t it? To be like vinyls [00:47:45] come back big time, isn’t it?

Giovanni Martino: They’re very expensive now. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about your first feeling when [00:47:50] you got to the UK. Had you been before? Yeah. For holidays or.

Giovanni Martino: Let’s [00:47:55] say in Italy it’s very common. Also in all Europe it’s very common [00:48:00] coming to UK to learn English because a school is not very like you don’t go in depth [00:48:05] in English. I, I came to UK uh, to do that as [00:48:10] a kid, as a 15 years old. Uh, the full summer learning English [00:48:15] was was shocking for me because I loved the UK. I [00:48:20] at that time I loved UK, I was.

Payman Langroudi: Whereabouts was that?

Giovanni Martino: Don’t laugh if [00:48:25] I tell you. Lincoln.

Payman Langroudi: Lincoln.

Giovanni Martino: Up north. I loved that [00:48:30] I was 15, and, uh. But nothing was happening there. [00:48:35] Uh huh. Uh, then I came to Bristol and then. And I [00:48:40] loved it even more.

Payman Langroudi: Great city man.

Giovanni Martino: I love it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a great city.

Giovanni Martino: I love it, I [00:48:45] love it in a lot of things happening there [00:48:50] still as a small city. I’m in London today, and I love London, [00:48:55] don’t get me wrong. Cartman. Cartman is my favourite place in the world. But [00:49:00] it’s too much. It’s too much for me. Uh, I am from Caserta, so it’s a small [00:49:05] city. Bristol is just bigger.

Payman Langroudi: Feels right to you?

Giovanni Martino: Yes, it feels right [00:49:10] for me.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a different thing that that size city. There’s some things about it that. [00:49:15] That you don’t even think about when you live in a this size city. Because I went to [00:49:20] Cardiff. Yeah. For university?

Giovanni Martino: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And there, you know, you’re constantly [00:49:25] bumping into people, you know, in the street.

Giovanni Martino: But ultimately still you do it. I do [00:49:30] because I am. Yeah. I’m not going I know a lot of. No I cannot. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You bump into [00:49:35] people. That’s. Yeah. Even let’s talk about total stranger. You see a total stranger. Yeah. You see [00:49:40] them again? Yeah. Somewhere along the line. Yeah. That’s. Yeah. That’s a different dynamic. Yeah. Because [00:49:45] if you know that that’s possible, then people treat each other differently. [00:49:50] Yeah. Than if, you know it’s the opposite. I’m never going to see this person ever again. Yeah. If you if you [00:49:55] walk down Oxford Street right now, you will never see these people ever again. Yeah. You could you could act [00:50:00] whichever way you want and you will never see. Now, that said, I don’t think humanity’s, like, so selfish. [00:50:05] You know, like, we do things that are illogical in a way. [00:50:10]

Giovanni Martino: I believe in the humanity. Yeah. Me too. Yeah, I believe that the the [00:50:15] most Important, um, resource [00:50:20] is people that works [00:50:25] with us, that stay with us. And uh, and they are they [00:50:30] can be. Yeah. Apart from the fact that you can meet patients as well in Bristol. And [00:50:35] that’s lovely because they say hello to you and, uh, that’s lovely. Uh, but [00:50:40] uh, but yeah, all the people that you work around, I love Bristol specifically.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:50:45] love the architecture. I love the hills and things. I’m sure you guys get sick of that. Yeah. No, [00:50:50] no, no, no, I always.

Giovanni Martino: Work with my my son around.

Payman Langroudi: Do you have an electric [00:50:55] bicycle? Not yet. I thought I would definitely get an electric bicycle if I was in Bristol. Yeah. [00:51:00]

Giovanni Martino: Or Vesper.

Payman Langroudi: There’s good restaurants, good restaurants for the size town. It’s [00:51:05] got a lot of good going for it. There is a.

Giovanni Martino: Lot of events, musical events. Yeah, people are cool.

Payman Langroudi: People [00:51:10] are cool. Yeah. That’s the other thing. Yeah. Hence the events and exhibitions.

Giovanni Martino: Yeah. Yeah. [00:51:15] And I liked.

Payman Langroudi: It. Isn’t Banksy from Bristol? It is.

Giovanni Martino: Yeah, he is, he is. I [00:51:20] say it is because probably it’s not human, but. Yeah, but. But [00:51:25] yeah, he is full of Banksy’s down there.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me, when you finally came as a dentist to Bristol, [00:51:30] what was the question?

Giovanni Martino: Because what was the.

Payman Langroudi: What was the sort of the, the best [00:51:35] thing and the worst thing about moving to Bristol from.

Giovanni Martino: Italy. I didn’t. Okay. [00:51:40] First thing that I want to say, I didn’t start working as [00:51:45] a dentist in Bristol.

Payman Langroudi: Dental nurse.

Giovanni Martino: And yeah, that was in Bristol. But as a [00:51:50] dentist, my first job was in Manchester. Oh, okay.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. That’s beautiful.

Giovanni Martino: Too. That’s beautiful. [00:51:55] But during the pandemic.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, was it during the pandemic?

Giovanni Martino: There was. I started working in 2019. [00:52:00] Middle 2019 was June 2019. And I [00:52:05] would say eight months after pandemic hit, I just put [00:52:10] the head inside the the Dentistry. And to be honest [00:52:15] with you, I was not enjoying it anyway. I didn’t like the NHS working, but if [00:52:20] my my partner said that I don’t have to speak about that because I can be offensive. [00:52:25] No, no. Some people can take it wrongly. Reason [00:52:30] why I got upset about it?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Talk about it. Look, the whole point of this is talking about. Yes, true. [00:52:35]

Giovanni Martino: The reason why I’m getting upset is because the NHS has [00:52:40] a great potential. But it’s an unexpressed. Yeah. In dentistry, [00:52:45] it’s true, because it’s where I learned treatment planning, and [00:52:50] I. A lot of people were putting pressure on me. Patients [00:52:55] manager and I was I was mentee. So the mentor. Et cetera. Et cetera. [00:53:00] Yeah. Uh, and I had the strength of not compromising my [00:53:05] dentistry. Aha. What I mean is, I was not the as good as [00:53:10] today, but I was putting the rabbit down.

Payman Langroudi: You were doing things right?

Giovanni Martino: Yes, [00:53:15] in the right. I was taking pictures. I was taking.

Payman Langroudi: Making no money. Right?

Giovanni Martino: Probably not [00:53:20] as many as my colleague, but who give a fuck about money. At the end of the [00:53:25] day, you need to do. And I’ve never had complaints.

Payman Langroudi: Dentistry is one of the only fields where [00:53:30] the the. The more conscientious you are, the less money you make. [00:53:35] Yeah. And that’s that’s an important point, right? Well, not it’s not necessarily [00:53:40] because you can set it up correctly privately. Right. You can set it up correctly to make loads of money. Yeah. Yeah. [00:53:45] But definitely NHS dentistry. The more conscientious you are, the less money you make. [00:53:50] Correct. And that’s, that’s such a weird like situation. Yeah. [00:53:55] Yes.

Giovanni Martino: Correct. And this is the reason why I. [00:54:00]

Payman Langroudi: It’s broken and you shouldn’t talk about it. Right? Exactly.

Giovanni Martino: I know, but the point is that [00:54:05] I, I, I actually did a contract at the NHS and I hated [00:54:10] it. And then the reception saying, oh, you are losing money. Why? [00:54:15] Because I’m doing white filling instead of a black filling. You could sell it privately, [00:54:20] but in my opinion, as I at the beginning of the conversation, I said today, [00:54:25] I’ve done the best restoration that I have done in my life. How can I [00:54:30] compromise my dentistry? You’re looking at it.

Payman Langroudi: As education instead of earning at that point. And that’s, by the way, [00:54:35] that’s the right. That’s actually the right way to look at it still now. Yeah, it’s still now.

Giovanni Martino: Because it’s a marathon. We [00:54:40] need to work 30 years with patience and you need to deliver your best. Otherwise, [00:54:45] if you think if you are driven by money. Don’t get me wrong. The [00:54:50] motivation can be multiple and can be honourable. But if you are only [00:54:55] driven by money, you are. You cannot be all the time [00:55:00] ethical. Yeah, that’s my constitutional opinion and that’s something that I’m [00:55:05] not going to cut.

Payman Langroudi: You’re in the wrong job if you’re only motivated by money in [00:55:10] dentistry.

Giovanni Martino: But then I told, I mean, we [00:55:15] earn a lot of money compared to the other people, and [00:55:20] we can work less. Yeah. If you work smart and you [00:55:25] are probably making £1,000 more than me, or like, [00:55:30] who else you get, you’re not making a billion [00:55:35] and I am making 1000. Yeah. Or you get. You don’t make a lot of difference. [00:55:40] More. That probably is the one that the the 1000 [00:55:45] more that you make. You risk the I things you risk a lot of things. You risk complaints. [00:55:50] You risk the probably something in some some one mouth [00:55:55] and etc. etc..

Payman Langroudi: But also and also the the definition of being a doctor, [00:56:00] a professional right is is what you’re doing when when no one’s looking. [00:56:05]

Giovanni Martino: Correct.

Payman Langroudi: And in dentistry, no one’s looking. Yeah. The nurse can’t [00:56:10] see what’s going on. The patient definitely doesn’t know what’s going on. Yeah. I mean, and so, you [00:56:15] know, that trust question when you go into a professional who’s got a certificate [00:56:20] on the wall and there’s a thing before his name that says doctor. Yeah. All of that is [00:56:25] saying, listen, when no one’s looking, I’m not gonna betray [00:56:30] that trust. Right.

Giovanni Martino: Yeah. Very good, very good. I didn’t I never heard of it, but, [00:56:35] uh, I’m going to tell to the patients now. Even [00:56:40] if I take pictures so I can show them.

Payman Langroudi: Best and worst things about [00:56:45] the UK compared to Italy. Um, what was your [00:56:50] initial feeling when you first got there? And now that you’ve been here for five years? [00:56:55] Like, what do you miss the most? And what what do you love the most about the UK?

Giovanni Martino: I miss the most [00:57:00] the seaside mate. Cornwall is beautiful, don’t get me wrong. My Mediterranean [00:57:05] is something else.

Payman Langroudi: The Adriatic?

Giovanni Martino: Yeah. [00:57:10] No, this is not the best. Yeah. Naples? Yeah, exactly. The [00:57:15] Tyrian terrano is called. Uh, that’s what I miss the most. [00:57:20] But you have lovely places as well here, so I can compromise. Uh, best [00:57:25] thing the culture, mate. The car. So even if [00:57:30] we are living in a moment of riots of extreme right and probably geopolitical [00:57:35] instability. Et cetera. Et cetera. I see [00:57:40] a lot of diversity. Yeah, I see a lot of diversity that [00:57:45] is, uh, mixed all together. And this is something that, uh, [00:57:50] is difficult to find, but all everywhere in Manchester. [00:57:55] As in Bristol, as in London, everywhere in the UK is cultural. And this diversity [00:58:00] can only make you grow. Cannot put you down.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:58:05] want to we shouldn’t. We shouldn’t sort of skate over the riot situation without [00:58:10] talking about it. True. From my my view on it. I mean, depending on [00:58:15] when this is going to go out. Right. But right now. Yeah.

Giovanni Martino: When is it going to. Going.

Payman Langroudi: Not sure. Two, three weeks let’s say. Okay. [00:58:20] Right now we’ve been through a week of riots in the UK. I came back from holiday and the country was on [00:58:25] fire. Right. Yeah. Um, my initial feeling on it was. It’s such a strange [00:58:30] thing that you’ve got. The Prime Minister was an Indian. Yeah. Yeah. So many of the top [00:58:35] jobs went to to foreigners. That wouldn’t have happened in any other country, you know, necessarily. [00:58:40] I mean, can you imagine in Italy, the the president being an Indian or something, it’s [00:58:45] unlikely that that on one side and on the other side, you’ve got the crowd, [00:58:50] this mob. Right. Who, as you can call them, whatever you want to [00:58:55] call them. But we’ve got to someone has to acknowledge here that This. [00:59:00] There’s a grievance. Yeah, yeah. And what is the grievance? It’s the same grievance [00:59:05] that they voted for. Brexit. Yeah, there’s there’s a part [00:59:10] of society that hasn’t benefited from globalism, [00:59:15] global investment and which all of those things end up in multiculturalism, [00:59:20] um, as well as we need to. One other point that [00:59:25] I would say on this subject is next time we’re going to support a war somewhere. [00:59:30] Understand, these people are running from something. Yeah.

Giovanni Martino: Are you for [00:59:35] for from Iran, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So, like, you look at the people coming in on a boat or [00:59:40] whatever. Yeah. Yeah. They’re all Syrians and Afghanis and Iranians. The places [00:59:45] where there’s been wars and and hassles. But I’m confident we’re going to get over [00:59:50] this. What are your views? Are you all.

Giovanni Martino: Right? Um. I am talking [00:59:55] being Italian, by the way.

Payman Langroudi: Italy’s had way [01:00:00] more, way more invented.

Giovanni Martino: Fascism. We invented [01:00:05] in 2019, 1920, 1920. Fascism. And we had [01:00:10] way.

Payman Langroudi: More immigration as well, right? Oh, yeah.

Giovanni Martino: No we don’t. I want to go a little bit [01:00:15] more. Sure, sure. That that that is a wave that [01:00:20] is hitting by the propaganda to people that, uh, [01:00:25] that is easy to influence. Yeah. And because [01:00:30] in the UK, you have a lot of [01:00:35] culture. Uh, that’s a wave that is going to. Is it like [01:00:40] a wave, like in the seaside? A wave that is going to go up and down naturally. [01:00:45] Uh, probably hit because not only there was [01:00:50] the riot people from fascism, extreme right, etc., etc. but it was there was a lot [01:00:55] of people protesting against them. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh, so [01:01:00] that way was heated by that and probably is going to calm down in the next few weeks. [01:01:05]

Payman Langroudi: Weeks, hopefully.

Giovanni Martino: Yes. Yeah. Um, but [01:01:10] what worries me mostly is [01:01:15] at the moment is the the international geopolitical [01:01:20] situation.

Payman Langroudi: This is the reason why.

Giovanni Martino: You are Iranian. [01:01:25] Yeah, yeah. And, um, and I don’t know, [01:01:30] honestly, but I’m scared a little bit. Not for me or [01:01:35] for my family. Uh, not even for you. Uh, but, [01:01:40] uh, that balanced geopolitical balance is good.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got family [01:01:45] in in right now in Beirut who can’t get out.

Giovanni Martino: You can’t. They can’t get out [01:01:50] because.

Payman Langroudi: There there are flights, but there aren’t tickets. I’ve got family in Tehran who want to.

Giovanni Martino: Because [01:01:55] UK government asked them to come or to come or to go somewhere.

Payman Langroudi: Else. There’s [01:02:00] no.

Giovanni Martino: Tickets. There is no.

Payman Langroudi: Tickets. Some of them have British passports. My wife’s family that they have, [01:02:05] they have British passports, but they still can’t get out. Um, I’ve got family in Iran who can’t get out. And I have [01:02:10] friends who have family in Israel who can’t get out. And and so, you [01:02:15] know, we went to we went to a place of thinking all of that was over. Um, until, um, [01:02:20] Ukraine happened and all that. Oh, no. Um, but, you know, we were in this moment of wars [01:02:25] and things aren’t going to happen anymore. It was like a false sense of security about it.

Giovanni Martino: And [01:02:30] that’s linked as well with the with the things that I was going to say that I was [01:02:35] saying to the, to the fact that the propaganda can hit someone that [01:02:40] has not a level of understanding. Um, I [01:02:45] am I’m just I’m just sorry. [01:02:50] Because at the end of the day, the victim of these conflicts [01:02:55] are the people. Like poor people? No, no, no, people [01:03:00] in general. Also that some people that can afford a flight ticket but they cannot take it and they [01:03:05] are obliged to suffer someone else’s decisions. Um, so [01:03:10] I’m more upset about this, that the the NHS. I have a great idea. [01:03:15] Imagine doing a, uh, [01:03:20] a TV show. Bbc TV show as, [01:03:25] um, as MasterChef, something like that. [01:03:30] Or someone that goes, like at the restaurants, like, uh, Hell’s Kitchen. Yeah, [01:03:35] but with dentistry. So, um. [01:03:40] And so you raise the. So imagine that you go to [01:03:45] a dental practice that is not in the right standards. It’s [01:03:50] not as glamorous. This is like struggling to sell things [01:03:55] like treatment because they still are in the old fashioned [01:04:00] dentistry. They are struggling to get over that. Imagine that. Uh [01:04:05] uh, like a TV show composed by all the [01:04:10] people from the UK. Like the singing, dentistry, the singing, dancing. I’m very bad with [01:04:15] names. So the singing dance so raw now that goes there and do the marketing thing [01:04:20] or like the I get it. Yeah. And [01:04:25] they check on the filters not being cleaned discussed. Yeah. This kind of [01:04:30] stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Um, you’re not talking about this TV show being for for the public, are you? Yeah. [01:04:35] Oh, really? Yeah. I don’t think that’s a good idea. Why? For us? [01:04:40] Yeah. Like someone someone in dentistry should make that show for dentistry. But no, I imagine [01:04:45] the public seeing the filter not being clean, but then.

Giovanni Martino: Oh, yeah, I get what [01:04:50] you mean. No, no, no, I get what you mean. But yeah, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, I think about sometimes, you know, [01:04:55] in NHS practice, sometimes they see 40, 50 patients in a day. By [01:05:00] the way, I’ve heard of.

Giovanni Martino: Dentists per.

Payman Langroudi: Dentists. Yeah, I’ve heard bigger numbers as well. But I just leave them. Yeah, but [01:05:05] 4050. Um, in between each patient, you have to clean up, right? Yeah. So, [01:05:10] I mean, let’s let’s make it the quickest cleanup in the world. Yeah. Two minutes. Yeah, [01:05:15] that’s an 100 minutes of cleanup. Yeah, yeah, [01:05:20] that isn’t being done. Yeah, yeah, is what I’m saying. It’s that [01:05:25] difficult seeing 4050 patients. Yeah. Hello and goodbye is [01:05:30] what you cannot. One minute, two minutes. That’s 100 minutes of hellos and goodbyes.

Giovanni Martino: It’s [01:05:35] impossible to industrialise dentistry. And [01:05:40] this is what the NHS try to do with the system. I’ve done also [01:05:45] two other contracts with the NHS, which was a stabilisation [01:05:50] contract and a per capitation contract. Now, per capitation [01:05:55] contract, if you are not ethical, you just you just steal money. [01:06:00] Stabilisation contract I was getting only [01:06:05] patients emergency from 111 and I was with the [01:06:10] with a patient that was doing what I was going to say. And I was starting [01:06:15] from prevention. I was starting from cleaning. Let’s clean today. If you come back next time [01:06:20] with your teeth cleaned, I can do your feelings. Otherwise let’s clean again. And [01:06:25] I’ve done lovely jobs in that kind of, uh, [01:06:30] in kind of contract. And I improved so much in [01:06:35] treatment planning from A to Z, a mouth [01:06:40] in order to make it stable. And that’s under [01:06:45] smart contract from the NHS. I was, I was getting paid [01:06:50] locum. But yeah, I liked it.

Payman Langroudi: So if you were the Minister of [01:06:55] Health, that’s what you were.

Giovanni Martino: First of all, the TV show. Let’s [01:07:00] do something to make that.

Payman Langroudi: One of the problems is that the percentage [01:07:05] of spend on teeth. Yeah. On from the health budget. Yeah. [01:07:10] Is about 2%. 2.5%. Yeah. And that’s not going up. Yeah. [01:07:15] There’s so many other things to spend. Money, you know, cancer care and elderly care. There’s so many things you need to spend money on. Psychological. [01:07:20] Yeah. Um, care. So the amount of money [01:07:25] is set? Yeah. Now, the question is, is there a better way to spend that money? Yeah. [01:07:30] And for me. Yeah. Have it for the ones who need it the most. Exactly.

Giovanni Martino: Stabilisation [01:07:35] one on one. I’m in pain. I cannot go to the specialist. To the private. Can I [01:07:40] see someone today? Yeah. Yeah. Go there. That was the Stabilisation Corps. It was an [01:07:45] emergency. And then in the best. So, for example, I was [01:07:50] I was seeing someone from jail. So the jail, a [01:07:55] jail, like in the castle, guy was in pain. The. I don’t know [01:08:00] what happened in the hospital of the. I don’t know if there is a hospital in the jail. I don’t think so. I mean, but [01:08:05] where we are in Sweden? No, but yeah, [01:08:10] I don’t know. Anyway. Someone with the police came to [01:08:15] make me do some instruction on this guy. And it was something for this guy. [01:08:20] Helped him and I gave him some antibiotics, for example. And that is [01:08:25] the way that I was most efficient in [01:08:30] the NHS. Because you find the one that, uh, is [01:08:35] in the jail and will never come back to you anymore. [01:08:40] Biting pain with the swollen face, or you find someone that has [01:08:45] a job can, if you speak with them, can be converted as [01:08:50] a private patient. And it’s beneficial for the [01:08:55] the practice as well.

Payman Langroudi: So how many years did you do NHS in siren sister?

Giovanni Martino: Uh, [01:09:00] I was stuck there because it was uh, during [01:09:05] the time, uh, for three years. So three.

Payman Langroudi: Years. Right.

Giovanni Martino: And in some point I [01:09:10] was doing, uh, private in somewhere else and NHS in somewhere in there. [01:09:15] Uh, and the reason why I didn’t want to mix up is because I hate [01:09:20] saying to the patients, as we were saying, we were [01:09:25] talking before, I’m doing a less glamorous job if you don’t pay me, but [01:09:30] if you pay me, I’m doing a better job or like higher standard job for me, [01:09:35] there’s no no, no, there is no, not. There is not in my constitutional [01:09:40] makeup. Makeup. In part because I swear. Do [01:09:45] you swear here to I swear like swear. Yeah. To [01:09:50] hypocrites. No. The when you when you say I swear [01:09:55] that I’m going to be ethical.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, like the Hippocratic.

Giovanni Martino: Hippocratic oath is [01:10:00] swearing oath.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Swear an oath. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. I thought you meant swear. [01:10:05] Like.

Giovanni Martino: No no no no no no no, you don’t swear, professor.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re saying. You’re [01:10:10] saying that your oath tells you you can’t do that? No.

Giovanni Martino: And because I need to deliver [01:10:15] the best as, as any time I can have a down day. A day that I’m not, like, [01:10:20] performing. Great. But I need to deliver the best. No, I [01:10:25] for me, for me, I get it.

Payman Langroudi: I get it, I get it, of course I get it. But, um, [01:10:30] that.

Giovanni Martino: I can of course my knowledge.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know what I decided? I stopped dentistry [01:10:35] for five years, and then. Then I went back because my wife got pregnant and [01:10:40] I took over her patience. And when I went back, because I’d been out [01:10:45] of it for five years, I said, look, I’m only going to do the things that I know I can do very [01:10:50] well, and everything else I’m going to refer you to. And guess what, man? I was referring [01:10:55] everything exactly. But there’s always someone who can do it better than me, [01:11:00] right?

Giovanni Martino: Yes, but. But there is also.

Payman Langroudi: I know I [01:11:05] don’t like the idea we talked about this with, uh, you know, Andy Moore. We just [01:11:10] put out that episode. Yeah. The Swiss implant. Yes, yes. And the Iranian implant. Right. [01:11:15] I don’t like it. Yeah. But but there is some reality in, in, you know, [01:11:20] you can do things to a basic standard or you can do it to a higher standard. [01:11:25] It’s possible.

Giovanni Martino: But there is a there is also. So you [01:11:30] need to charge as well what is in the standard of [01:11:35] your practice. Okay. So if I do an endo [01:11:40] and I charge x okay. Then if you want [01:11:45] you can get it from Cristiano Ronaldo vendo. But which [01:11:50] is Massimo by the way. Yeah. Ciao, Massimo. Um, uh, and [01:11:55] this is going to charge x per five for x. Yes. Yeah. Uh, [01:12:00] the patients say look, I trust you. Do your [01:12:05] best. And I am going to deliver a high standard that you can the [01:12:10] high standard because I’ve trained. I had a lot more than doing the courses. Do you know what? Apart [01:12:15] from the books, uh, shadowing is I. I think [01:12:20] I am a very lucky person. As I said before, I am thanking [01:12:25] the God. Each kind of God.

Payman Langroudi: Who did you shadow? [01:12:30]

Giovanni Martino: I shadow everybody I could, eye shadow. Massimo Alfonso. Recently [01:12:35] I shadowed Roddy Thomas. Yeah, apart [01:12:40] from that, he’s a super talented person. I mean, like, [01:12:45] and as Cristiano Ronaldo, that talent doesn’t come for free. You need to train [01:12:50] badly. But what I loved him, like what [01:12:55] I loved, I learned he was. That is a super charming [01:13:00] guy that makes you feel so good while you are. While he’s delivering. [01:13:05] What he’s doing is very calm and [01:13:10] very calm and very, uh. And that’s something that as an experience [01:13:15] from a patient, you love it. Yeah. Apart from [01:13:20] the fact that he’s very good in what he does, and that’s the verticality [01:13:25] that we were speaking about. If you do composite veneer for and also [01:13:30] only composite veneer and porcelain veneer [01:13:35] for ten years. You’re going to become the best. But what [01:13:40] I learned, of course, the tips that you can learn from a course, but better [01:13:45] if you shadow. If you see someone working. Because what you learn is from [01:13:50] your eyes. Where is the fact that he was treating the patients [01:13:55] as a I am a [01:14:00] cheese gender heterosexual guy, a beautiful woman. I [01:14:05] will I treat I mean I tend to treat beautiful women like [01:14:10] because I’m Italian. I have a soft spot and beautiful woman, but I don’t know where to get out from here. [01:14:15] Please.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly. There was there was this 12 minute section of a podcast [01:14:20] I had to cut out because I knew. I knew from the first moment I said [01:14:25] it that this was wasn’t going in the right direction.

Giovanni Martino: Get me out from here. Get me out from here.

Payman Langroudi: But. [01:14:30] Yeah. How long do you think you have to shadow someone to get the good stuff? [01:14:35] Do you reckon one day is enough? Do you reckon.

Giovanni Martino: As much as you can? As much as you can. If you can one day. [01:14:40] Do one day if you can. Weeks. The weeks.

Payman Langroudi: I think people are open to it as well. Right?

Giovanni Martino: I [01:14:45] think I had someone shadowing me. Yeah. From student. A student [01:14:50] that was coming to the study club. Yeah. And she she was interested in me [01:14:55] in in what I was doing. She came to the dental practice shadow for [01:15:00] a few days, and she said, I loved it, thank you very much. And [01:15:05] I learned x, y, and Z. I mean, like then, for example, I think [01:15:10] that that student that is going to become a, a dentist [01:15:15] in some point is going to be always a friend of mine. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I shadowed [01:15:20] a guy for that. It was it was actually a very good thing to do. The principal [01:15:25] gave me a job, And he said, part of this job is that for the first three weeks, you [01:15:30] have to shadow the guy that you’re going to replace. Yeah, this the guy I shadowed [01:15:35] here was a brilliant dentist, but I learned more in that [01:15:40] three weeks. Yeah, yeah.

Giovanni Martino: Before shadowing. Shadowing, shadowing. Yeah. [01:15:45] If you can take take one day off a week and go somewhere to shadow.

Payman Langroudi: Great education. [01:15:50]

Giovanni Martino: That’s the best thing that you can do for your career. But yeah, [01:15:55] because you don’t learn only learn the skills.

Payman Langroudi: No, there’s loads of nuance, [01:16:00] man. Loads of nuance.

Giovanni Martino: Exactly. Something that nobody can teach you in any [01:16:05] other way. Better than mentoring is actually shadowing. But [01:16:10] mentoring. You don’t lose money shadowing. You lose money because [01:16:15] you don’t work. If you think about it that way. But it’s an investment. Yeah. And to be honest [01:16:20] with you, for people that I Know that [01:16:25] I can learn. I will also pay. But honestly, I [01:16:30] would love to pay to to to to shadow Depeche. Yeah. [01:16:35] Because yeah I’m done. I’ve done the course twice. Yeah, but [01:16:40] I think that shadowing him is something.

Payman Langroudi: It’s different being in the surgery when he’s doing the thing, [01:16:45] man. For sure.

Giovanni Martino: Yeah. So I had I was [01:16:50] very lucky. I was very, very lucky to have the opportunity to shadow these people. [01:16:55]

Payman Langroudi: I’m going to ask you a question now, you might have heard it before if you listen to the podcast before, but [01:17:00] it’s a really unfair question, but I’d just like to ask it in [01:17:05] the end, though. What was your aha moment?

Giovanni Martino: What [01:17:10] do you mean aha, aha.

Payman Langroudi: Like, like when you suddenly something clicked and you understood. Like [01:17:15] what was. What was it. Oh.

Giovanni Martino: Oh, I get that, um, [01:17:20] opening thousands of teeth. Access. [01:17:25] Access. Access. Extracted teeth. Yeah. Getting there and [01:17:30] opening the chamber. Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Extracted teeth.

Giovanni Martino: Extract. And you cannot. You cannot. No. I thought [01:17:35] you.

Payman Langroudi: Meant it was like just doing that. No, no.

Giovanni Martino: No no studying. So that [01:17:40] is where I go to the patient and know exactly where I need to go. [01:17:45] Then, of course, you need to know. You have to have a protocol. For me, what is indispensable [01:17:50] is the ultrasonic. Some people say, well, are you using ultrasonic [01:17:55] for indoor all the time? That’s the most the thing that I mostly use. Reason [01:18:00] to.

Payman Langroudi: Irrigate.

Giovanni Martino: Ultrasonic. No, no, no. To open the shutter.

Payman Langroudi: To open.

Giovanni Martino: Yeah, [01:18:05] yeah. Because the ultrasonic [01:18:10] is something that goes in the in the minority [01:18:15] resistencia place of the tooth, which means from Latin because I am [01:18:20] Italian, which means the most fragile part of the tooth. [01:18:25] If you don’t, if you want to be conservative, ultrasonic [01:18:30] give you the access. Very conservative. Oh, so you’re getting.

Payman Langroudi: You get close to the roof. No, no, no.

Giovanni Martino: I open [01:18:35] it.

Payman Langroudi: You open it and then open it out with the ultrasonic. Exactly, exactly. Yes, [01:18:40] yes, yes.

Giovanni Martino: I get into that and then I scale around. Of course you need to. You [01:18:45] need to have first of all tips and don’t take tips. And then you need [01:18:50] to know how to.

Payman Langroudi: I noticed I follow a couple of endodontists here and I noticed the access cavities are getting [01:18:55] so small, man. Yeah. Yeah. So small.

Giovanni Martino: I’m not a huge fan of small. [01:19:00]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I guess I guess in the world of endo, that’s the the the kudos that they give between [01:19:05] each other, right?

Giovanni Martino: Yes, yes. I small one millimetre, I open one millimetre. You open [01:19:10] one and a half. You are worse.

Payman Langroudi: Because in from my memory of endo [01:19:15] the bigger the better. It was because you you kind of kind of. And I know the reason why they’re [01:19:20] trying to be a conservative. Right? I get it all. I get it.

Giovanni Martino: Yeah. But of course, uh, [01:19:25] I’m not a dentist, I use loops. I’m not using [01:19:30] a microscope. Um, and you need to have a [01:19:35] comfortable access from your files and your GP points. And if you’re very [01:19:40] small, without, uh, the right tools. Also, a CT scan is essential [01:19:45] in that case. So you exactly know where to drill from the beginning to find all [01:19:50] the canals.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a brilliant tip to to to take extracted teeth. Where did you get the teeth from? [01:19:55] Just from.

Giovanni Martino: Uh, Delta.

Payman Langroudi: All of Alfonso’s clinics.

Giovanni Martino: Delta. [01:20:00] Delta. Delta is full of extracted teeth. Educational [01:20:05] side also universities was full of extracted teeth. Informally and steal [01:20:10] it. Now in dental. In dentistry. You cannot really do it anymore. But when [01:20:15] you take a tooth out, you need to be in it. But before you could [01:20:20] or you can, you can actually put it in the autoclave. And if [01:20:25] you have alpha number three in in the surgery is a nightmare because [01:20:30] you need to use water. Otherwise it’s smelly badly. And from [01:20:35] for the patient it’s not very nice. But if you have an access to Delta, [01:20:40] uh, or for example, one guy contacted me, [01:20:45] a friend of mine say I’m doing the course of Masimo. Any tip, anything that [01:20:50] I take, take all the thing all the time that you can. Opening teeth, opening [01:20:55] teeth opening.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting.

Giovanni Martino: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about an adhesive?

Giovanni Martino: Adhesive dentistry. [01:21:00]

Payman Langroudi: Aha.

Giovanni Martino: Adhesive dentistry is my favourite thing in the world.

Payman Langroudi: But the aha [01:21:05] moment, the.

Giovanni Martino: Aha moment when you understand how much of the company [01:21:10] to cut for putty can only.

Payman Langroudi: Go on.

Giovanni Martino: Um, so [01:21:15] that’s something that Marco Veneziano’s book is saying. Um, [01:21:20] a the cusp is a kind of a pyramid. Okay. [01:21:25] If is empty underneath or partially emptied with an undercut, [01:21:30] you need to get it strong. So you need to go back to [01:21:35] the shape of a pyramid. And the pyramid is never going to fall down.

Payman Langroudi: Aha.

Giovanni Martino: So [01:21:40] yeah, if you have a pyramid in the cusp, that’s the right moment to play.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:21:45] if it’s if it’s unsupported remove it totally and go get back to a pyramid. I don’t. Is that what [01:21:50] you mean?

Giovanni Martino: No. Imagine a cusp. Yeah. Of a molar.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s the undercut of decay or whatever. [01:21:55] You’ve cleaned it out.

Giovanni Martino: Go down until the base of the pyramid. Oh I [01:22:00] see. Is strong.

Payman Langroudi: I see, I see, I see.

Giovanni Martino: Yeah. Yeah. I have, [01:22:05] I have been, I have done, I have, um, I [01:22:10] had an intervention from uh, from some [01:22:15] principle, uh, saying, uh, why you, you [01:22:20] use adhesive, uh, prosthodontics rather than full crown. [01:22:25] We actually want that you do full crowns, they last longer and the patient [01:22:30] pay more for that. And in that moment, I say, I [01:22:35] want you to bring me the book and the surgeon and say, study this, and it’s going to change [01:22:40] your life. But, uh, I felt I am not [01:22:45] working with for someone that, uh, disagree [01:22:50] with my, my knowledge, my education, because [01:22:55] what he was speaking was about, uh, I’m, I’m wording [01:23:00] this as a crown, and you need to deliver a crown. Yeah. Once [01:23:05] that you are wording it as a 3D piece of puzzle. Yeah. And [01:23:10] the patient understand even more. If you show them a picture of what is it they understand [01:23:15] even more. And they prefer being conservative rather [01:23:20] than being. But my mantra is be conservative as much as you can. If you have [01:23:25] a root that is decayed before to take it out, do an end. Yeah. [01:23:30] My mantra is that so that you.

Payman Langroudi: Can pull it out with the. [01:23:35]

Giovanni Martino: I also done an extrusion orthodontic extrusion of a root [01:23:40] is one of the of the of the cases that have submitted for dentistry. [01:23:45] It’s fun because if you explain to the patients what you are doing, they accept [01:23:50] it because it’s fun. You be creative, you are being creative. So [01:23:55] of course, um, they need to trust you and [01:24:00] never, never, never you [01:24:05] against me. So your approach never need to be you against me for sure. I’m here to help [01:24:10] you if you want. I can help you in this way. Shall we try? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. For sure. This needs to be the [01:24:15] approach for sure, because I have very, very good friends that are great [01:24:20] clinicals, great dentists, and they have tons of [01:24:25] complaints and they don’t give a fuck about it. They don’t want change the [01:24:30] a comma about what they are doing. They just that’s [01:24:35] my indemnity. Talk to them. I don’t care because I am better than you. [01:24:40] What’s. No you just need to explain a little bit better. Yeah, you need to spend time [01:24:45] with the patients.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a lot of ego in our profession, you know, somehow it comes in [01:24:50] somehow, man. Yeah. Um. And look, there’s loads of people. Did you know Gianfranco [01:24:55] Politano?

Giovanni Martino: No. Who is this person?

Payman Langroudi: Passed away. Passed away recently? Sorry. [01:25:00] Gentle dentist. Really wonderful guy. Like the way he was talking about, um, what [01:25:05] you learned from, uh, Rodri? That gentleness?

Giovanni Martino: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Um, part [01:25:10] of the simulation, uh, group?

Giovanni Martino: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know why I brought him up just because [01:25:15] he’s an Italian. No, unfortunately.

Giovanni Martino: Not all the Italian knows everybody. All the Italians, [01:25:20] unfortunately.

Payman Langroudi: What was the aha moment in ortho? I’m liking how [01:25:25] you’re coming up with them straight away.

Giovanni Martino: Um, once I start [01:25:30] doing my own ortho, because I had a long time working for [01:25:35] under another name for Invisalign. That’s very common. Yeah. And [01:25:40] I was taking all the sheet, but not all the benefits from it. I was not learning. [01:25:45] So once I start. So I was only taking the complaints from the patient without doing [01:25:50] my my prediction. When I started doing my own ortho, I [01:25:55] learned how to plan it in a way and deliver [01:26:00] that to the patients in particular. Because with Without. Nowadays, [01:26:05] you just need to learn to listen to the patients. They are the leading and [01:26:10] then you do whatever they want because we can do the class. We can [01:26:15] deliver class one. Yeah, but the patient doesn’t want the class one. And we are wasting [01:26:20] two years of their time. And they got fatigue. They got like there is a I [01:26:25] do very little amount of fixed braces because it’s not it’s not [01:26:30] that cheaper to justify the hassle and the fact [01:26:35] that it’s not cosmetic. So I do a lot of aligners with [01:26:40] aligners. You need to keep it simple. You need to see the patient. And [01:26:45] this is something that I learned speaking with the patients. Say what do you want this tooth [01:26:50] I want that, show me something. Show me pictures. What do you what do you [01:26:55] have in your mind? Because I’m telling you if I can do it or not. Because if we see [01:27:00] a patient as a book, We fail. And [01:27:05] this is the problem with the specialists. They don’t know the patients that they are treating. They [01:27:10] are actually delivering orthodontists. They are delivering class one. The patient doesn’t give a fuck about [01:27:15] class one. They have they want to have straight teeth.

Payman Langroudi: Your aha. Is that to to involve the patient [01:27:20] in the final. In the pro.

Giovanni Martino: They need they need to approve it. I’m I [01:27:25] am I am a I’m become of course I’m becoming more. [01:27:30] I am what I say all the time to the patients. I am at your service. [01:27:35] What do you want? What? Where do you want to achieve? Let’s see where [01:27:40] if we can achieve to. Then of course there are cases where there are [01:27:45] cases in cases. But you need to speak with the patients to know. My Aha [01:27:50] is starting planning in the way that I want, and the way that I want is [01:27:55] patients driven. Of course, if there is a patio, there [01:28:00] is a nice joke that I can tell. There is two ways of telling this. I was doing [01:28:05] an implant on a patient into an elevator and [01:28:10] it was wrong on many levels. That’s [01:28:15] a joke. But there is a joke that say the truth. [01:28:20] Of course, I cannot do orthodontics on everybody is an elective treatment, but [01:28:25] if there are the right choice, you need to know those conditions. And [01:28:30] then you can you can you can deliver what they want. Probably [01:28:35] they don’t want like back teeth straight. They don’t want to get [01:28:40] over the crossbar. It just want to, you know, or someone they [01:28:45] want to have a nice nicer bite. You can you can you can do it. You can [01:28:50] do better if you speak with them.

Payman Langroudi: So on this pod we like to talk about mistakes. Yeah. Clinical. [01:28:55]

Giovanni Martino: Dentistry. No, I don’t know the other field [01:29:00] of medicine. I hope less, but dentistry is [01:29:05] based on learning from mistakes and some people don’t [01:29:10] take it wrong. They don’t take it very good. Good, because I [01:29:15] have learned more from an online that broke [01:29:20] than from the successful one. Because the successful. [01:29:25] You don’t see it again. Yeah. The one that I took the picture from, I took the scan from. [01:29:30] And I know that there was a contact point that I had to clean a little, cut it a little [01:29:35] bit more or into approximately, or they don’t go in or [01:29:40] I love, for example, for fruit. I rarely do full crowns. Nowadays, [01:29:45] when I do full crowns, I love vertical prep and [01:29:50] a lot of people don’t know and a lot of technicians. I heard the podcast from [01:29:55] a few episodes ago about the technician technicians.

Payman Langroudi: They’re like, no, [01:30:00] they can’t see a line.

Giovanni Martino: Exactly. They don’t know where to start from. But that’s the beauty. [01:30:05] You can start from wherever. Actually, you can induce the gum to [01:30:10] grow as you want, like an abutment. Move it.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Giovanni Martino: Yes. [01:30:15] Because you you can go in as much as you want with the materials. For [01:30:20] example, zirconia, hyper polish the in the gingival septum. [01:30:25] I mean like that. Don’t want to get very technical in that. But there [01:30:30] are some people that reject these these some technicians that reject some dentists [01:30:35] that don’t know that they can do that. Their life is simple if they do vertical [01:30:40] sometimes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So but what we were talking about something. [01:30:45]

Giovanni Martino: You were speaking about the wow of something, the wow of the yields. [01:30:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. So so now going forward. Yeah. Do you [01:30:55] think your sort of ambition is to open your own? [01:31:00]

Giovanni Martino: Do you know that? Um, I. Yes. [01:31:05] The answer is yes, but I don’t know [01:31:10] yet what layout the dental practice [01:31:15] has to have, or what principal needs to [01:31:20] be in the constitution of the dental practice. Reason is [01:31:25] because I’ve worked for a lot, a lot of people, not only [01:31:30] for Alfonso, for like Massimo, etc., etc. I worked for a lot [01:31:35] of people and principle can be toxic for [01:31:40] an associate. But not only also for the the. And, uh, I [01:31:45] need to. I need to find [01:31:50] the the way of opening [01:31:55] a sound and organic business. [01:32:00] And that’s I don’t know how to do it yet. So. But my ambition is. Yes. So. [01:32:05]

Payman Langroudi: So then are you constantly on the lookout? You’re looking. No no no no no, I don’t mean for business. I mean for [01:32:10] for these principles.

Giovanni Martino: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You’re thinking [01:32:15] I learned this from Alphonse. I learned what not to do from doctor X. [01:32:20] Whatever. Yes.

Giovanni Martino: Yes, yes.

Payman Langroudi: So. So just indulge [01:32:25] me, man. Imagine. Imagine you met a billionaire and he gave you. I don’t know, [01:32:30] he said, look, I don’t care how much it costs. Yeah, yeah, make make a clinic. Yeah. [01:32:35]

Giovanni Martino: Um, first of all, I would like to spend a little bit more. Where would.

Payman Langroudi: It be? [01:32:40] First of all, Bristol. Do you feel like Bristol? Do you feel like Bristol is now your your forever? [01:32:45]

Giovanni Martino: Yeah, yeah, it’s my.

Payman Langroudi: Forever home.

Giovanni Martino: At the moment. Yes I have 25 years.

Payman Langroudi: Mortgage. [01:32:50]

Giovanni Martino: So.

Payman Langroudi: At.

Giovanni Martino: The moment need to be there. But yeah, let’s imagine Bristol. Okay, first [01:32:55] of all I will invest a little bit more in paediatric dentistry. Okay. That’s a [01:33:00] field that the money are there on the floor and nobody is taking it. Yeah. Just [01:33:05] just to let you to understand and, uh, and [01:33:10] you have a great opportunity to, to make, uh, the thing traumatic [01:33:15] for kids. Yeah. So I will say to this millionaire, [01:33:20] uh, a good amount of this money to a paediatric [01:33:25] session of the practice, need to be a part of [01:33:30] the practice where kids are coming without booking appointments, [01:33:35] two hours of their life. Spending time [01:33:40] in the waiting room with parents is like, uh, exactly. [01:33:45] Putting two people together by kids and then one by [01:33:50] one, I will see them.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know if you know Kunal. Um. Love.

Giovanni Martino: Of course I met [01:33:55] him, I went to, I went, I went for an interview there. Oh. Did you. Did you? Yeah, but for [01:34:00] the. For the fun of it.

Payman Langroudi: He’s got two kids. I love that kids only clinic. Did you go there?

Giovanni Martino: I [01:34:05] went there, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting.

Giovanni Martino: It’s very interesting. That kind of stuff. Kind of thing. That kind of stuff. [01:34:10]

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So the kids element. What else?

Giovanni Martino: Um. Full [01:34:15] time, full time associates? No. Part time.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? [01:34:20]

Giovanni Martino: I think, uh, that, uh, an associate is [01:34:25] like a football player. A football player cannot play for two teams. And [01:34:30] the only moment where I was working [01:34:35] and I learned from my mistakes, and, uh, [01:34:40] I was earning the best money, was working full time for that [01:34:45] four days a week in the same practice.

Payman Langroudi: So to have the sort of the [01:34:50] ethos, the commitment.

Giovanni Martino: Yes. But no, not for me or the principle [01:34:55] or the practice, even for them, for you, it’s, it’s it’s not [01:35:00] good going somewhere else. Take the toxicity of somewhere else. Bring it somewhere. So [01:35:05] if you want to improve, improve where you are. Then if you don’t feel [01:35:10] in the right place anymore, go somewhere else but full, full [01:35:15] time. If I am the principle, I work in my dental practice. I work [01:35:20] with the team.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but then you might want to open more. I mean, it’s [01:35:25] possible, isn’t it?

Giovanni Martino: And that’s, that’s something that, for example, you need to become [01:35:30] you need to you need to change your business. Um, um, [01:35:35] model, model. Exactly. You are becoming a franchise. And you need [01:35:40] to lower your standards and standardise. You cannot have [01:35:45] someone better than one someone.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting question, isn’t it, that that question of do you have to lower your [01:35:50] standards if you. I mean, it’s definitely the biggest danger of growth.

Giovanni Martino: But that’s an [01:35:55] inevitable, uh, process to grow it back again. I [01:36:00] know.

Payman Langroudi: I know, but but what I’m saying is that if I walk into a Gucci shop. [01:36:05] Yeah. In. But that’s in Mumbai. Yes. Yeah.

Giovanni Martino: Yeah, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: The experience will be similar [01:36:10] to the Gucci shop in, in London. Yes.

Giovanni Martino: But because the training is the same [01:36:15] so you need to standardise it. Yeah. All right. But if you don’t standardise [01:36:20] it you are going to you’re going to have problems because first of all price [01:36:25] why spending less money there and then more money here. Yeah. Uh why [01:36:30] this patient cannot this dentist cannot deliver me this and that. So you need [01:36:35] to standardise. And unfortunately, it’s difficult to standardise dentistry unless you do it in [01:36:40] a very low level, like my dentist, not low level. Basic level. All right. Because there [01:36:45] are great clinician anyway. But basic level then of course in the same structure you can [01:36:50] do whatever you want. But the standard base standard need to be the same.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:36:55] So look, just before you were here, I had a guy, uh, he’s got 12 [01:37:00] practices all the same.

Giovanni Martino: The orthodontist one.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. [01:37:05] This morning.

Giovanni Martino: All right. So they didn’t go out yet? No, no. All right.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So 12 [01:37:10] practices all the same. He and he was saying that all he wants to change dentistry and whatever. [01:37:15] And, uh, he’s not a dentist himself. All right. Um, and he was talking [01:37:20] about the waiting room and the smell and this and that and the greeting [01:37:25] and the follow up. Okay. And he was saying all of that the same. But in the dental chair, [01:37:30] we don’t tell them anything, is it? And it’s a really.

Giovanni Martino: Good point.

Payman Langroudi: Actually. [01:37:35] You know, it’s interesting idea.

Giovanni Martino: Yeah. Because dentists are artists, you cannot really [01:37:40] tell what they have to do. It’s difficult.

Payman Langroudi: To change dentist behaviour.

Giovanni Martino: But the standardised [01:37:45] dental reception and wet nurse the way. How [01:37:50] is your customer service that can be standardised? Yes yes yes. [01:37:55]

Payman Langroudi: And even even to your point, my dentist. They’ve got some gigantic clinics. [01:38:00] Yeah, yeah.

Giovanni Martino: 14, 16 years.

Payman Langroudi: I was in a meeting [01:38:05] with them and I said, oh, I’ll turn up to any clinic that has more than eight chairs or something. [01:38:10] You’re thinking, how many of those could there be? And it turned out that the whole business model was to [01:38:15] go to a town by 4 or 5 practices and turn them into one giant practice. [01:38:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s impressive the way they run some of those studios. Yeah. I think about [01:38:25] sometimes, you know, when we went from 30 staff to 40 staff, it was really difficult to manage [01:38:30] that process. And new people, they’ve got 650 practices [01:38:35] man. So to keep anything standardised Across that sort [01:38:40] of number is difficult, is difficult.

Giovanni Martino: This is the reason why you need to simplify it. Yeah, but the other thing.

Payman Langroudi: I’m [01:38:45] finding some associates now. Yeah. Saying they’re going to corporates never back [01:38:50] in the like eight, nine years ago. You would never hear that. You never hear an associate saying, [01:38:55] I’m going to go for a corporate job from an independent job. And the only reason [01:39:00] is because it’s standardised. They know what they’re going to get. It might not be the best thing in [01:39:05] the world, but they know what they’re going to get. And knowing that sometimes it’s [01:39:10] compared to an independent where you don’t know what you’re going to get.

Giovanni Martino: Yeah. I worked for a corporate. Interesting. [01:39:15] Yeah. You know exactly where they are going to fuck you up and [01:39:20] you get get the you get that. You know, with [01:39:25] Roderick’s. I was with Roderick’s.

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Giovanni Martino: Which they treat me very, very good. I mean, [01:39:30] like, um, during the pandemic, they were paying us. Of [01:39:35] course, that was the NHS thing, but they were. And if was not because of that, [01:39:40] I was back in Italy now. Really? Yeah. Because I was not working. [01:39:45] I was a mentee. I was forcing at home, I was a, I was I [01:39:50] wanted to work, but I was forced at home. So the hubs that they organised, they [01:39:55] didn’t let me go there.

Payman Langroudi: Well, we’re coming to the end of our time. [01:40:00] Oh, no. I feel like we haven’t even started.

Giovanni Martino: Oh, no. Did we started? Ha [01:40:05] ha ha.

Payman Langroudi: Um. Biggest mistake. Biggest mistake. Clinical mistake. [01:40:10] Biggest what? A patient that stands out in your mind, a difficult [01:40:15] patient.

Giovanni Martino: Um, the clinical.

Payman Langroudi: Something [01:40:20] someone else can learn from.

Giovanni Martino: Clinical. Uh, [01:40:25] the non non-planning. Right? Right. Uh, a thing like [01:40:30] a treatment, for example. Um. I’ve [01:40:35] done an extraction that was a difficult extraction.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t realise before and.

Giovanni Martino: I [01:40:40] didn’t realise that was that difficult. So I didn’t go surgery. [01:40:45] I didn’t have, um, uh, separate routes. I didn’t go that direction. [01:40:50] So I end up breaking a bit of bone and the patient start, like, [01:40:55] not complaining, but, uh, you know, felt it for a long time. Loss [01:41:00] of bone and. Et cetera. Et cetera. Planification. So my, my, [01:41:05] the mistake was the tooth came out so clinically it was not a mistake because can be [01:41:10] in the actual, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Which was it, the tuberosity.

Giovanni Martino: Uh, no, it [01:41:15] was a bone of a seven. So some people not even think about [01:41:20] this as a mistake. But if I was sectioning the roots.

Payman Langroudi: That wouldn’t [01:41:25] have.

Giovanni Martino: Happened. Yes. Yeah. So for me, my mistakes are in the planning or communication. [01:41:30]

Payman Langroudi: That’s like, come on, that’s not a big mistake.

Giovanni Martino: Yeah. I was thinking I made a bigger mistake, a mistake, [01:41:35] but, um, it was my.

Payman Langroudi: Mistake. It’s not a mistake. Some people [01:41:40] mistake that question. They think, oh, I dropped something and forget [01:41:45] that. I’m talking about a difficult patient who’s who? Who comes to mind when I say, [01:41:50] who is your most difficult patient?

Giovanni Martino: The one that you need to go to holiday. I, [01:41:55] uh, I cried once because two people complained [01:42:00] in my face. Not like escalator on a formal complaint, like a face to face complaint, because [01:42:05] I was not able to deliver the them a feeling on the spot [01:42:10] in 20 minutes in the in the NHS because they were going [01:42:15] on holiday and someone else was complaining because I was not able to deliver like a temporary [01:42:20] crown on a frontal tooth, on the spot, on an emergency appointment, something [01:42:25] like that. And they were complaining me face to face and [01:42:30] I back. I went back home crying. Kind of. Yeah, [01:42:35] yeah. I mean, like, but then I realised that you need to be firm with patients. [01:42:40] We need to. I’m not the right dentist for you if you want this, because you’re not. So my [01:42:45] my mistakes are in the communication. Probably. I don’t know if I made a [01:42:50] huge mistake. Probably that’s that’s I’m speaking about something that I’m [01:42:55] ignorant of. Probably I’ve done a huge mistake that I don’t know. No.

Payman Langroudi: You’re also too [01:43:00] young. You’re also too young to have made lots of mistakes.

Giovanni Martino: Probably. I don’t have the actual follow [01:43:05] up follow up of something, but my mistakes are in the communication. In [01:43:10] the communication, and yeah, in the planning. And that’s a big those are big mistakes actually. [01:43:15] If I if you think about it, a full mouth rehabilitation without planning it, without [01:43:20] planning in the right way is a mistake. You’re you’re doing a mistake. [01:43:25] That is a hassle.

Payman Langroudi: How often do you do that?

Giovanni Martino: Full mouth Rehab every [01:43:30] time I do ortho.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Giovanni Martino: Uh, but, [01:43:35] um, with ortho quite often, because [01:43:40] when I start doing my own ortho, I start realising, [01:43:45] uh, that, um, yeah, the teeth were able [01:43:50] to go in a better position, even in a better bite, even [01:43:55] building up some with composite or with veneers if the patient wants, or with crowns [01:44:00] if it’s needed. So most of the time is when I do big [01:44:05] ortho cases, I do every time it’s in. The thing is full mouth rehabilitation [01:44:10] because you’re rehabilitating the bite of a person if you think about it. True, [01:44:15] true. So that is true.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the final questions.

Giovanni Martino: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy [01:44:20] dinner party.

Giovanni Martino: I thought about it. Three guests.

Payman Langroudi: So dead [01:44:25] or alive.

Giovanni Martino: I, I came up with two, but then I will. I [01:44:30] will tell you some one freestyle. The third one. The first one is my father, [01:44:35] of course, because I would like to have a dinner with him. Of course. Uh, the second one is Berlusconi. [01:44:40] I don’t know if you know Berlusconi character.

Payman Langroudi: Yes, [01:44:45] but what was he like? A bit of like a Donald Trump plus.

Giovanni Martino: Yes. [01:44:50] And, um. Uh, it was, it was a Donald Trump, but with better [01:44:55] jokes. Plus.

Payman Langroudi: Plus.

Giovanni Martino: Yeah, but funnier, much funnier. And, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Richest man [01:45:00] in Italy, right? No. Was he not? No.

Giovanni Martino: No. But, uh, very rich. Probably. [01:45:05] Yes.

Payman Langroudi: One of the.

Giovanni Martino: Richest. Non non non non non [01:45:10] gangster.

Payman Langroudi: Non gangster. Yeah.

Giovanni Martino: Oh that’s debateable as well. [01:45:15] Um the third person uh. [01:45:20] Pascal man. Why not. I mean like, because I’ve never met [01:45:25] him, and I think he’s a genius in what he does, not only clinically and researching, [01:45:30] but also in the way that he communicates the stuff. So it’s funny. I think so [01:45:35] why not?

Payman Langroudi: He’s good. You’ve never met.

Giovanni Martino: Him? Never met him. I imagine [01:45:40] going into in Miami and doing his course. Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Giovanni Martino: At the moment I just have [01:45:45] the books.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Your great books? Yeah. And the final question. It’s [01:45:50] a deathbed question.

Giovanni Martino: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s difficult for someone as young as you, but. But, yeah, [01:45:55] let’s just say on your deathbed, surrounded by [01:46:00] your loved ones. Yeah. Three pieces of advice. What would they be?

Giovanni Martino: Three [01:46:05] pieces of advice. One for sure. [01:46:10] For sure. Don’t take life too seriously because [01:46:15] it doesn’t need to. I mean, like, yeah, of course life is shit. It can [01:46:20] be. But don’t take it so seriously. Simplify things because it is [01:46:25] always a phase. It always will pass. The second thing. [01:46:30] Eat good, drink good. And [01:46:35] the third thing. Love. Love something or someone that [01:46:40] makes you a better person. But I just freestyled it. I didn’t know that you were [01:46:45] doing. Yeah. Love something or someone is make you passionate about. So love. [01:46:50] Love music, love something. Love speaking to people, love your wife [01:46:55] or whatever. Love. But it seems that I am a five years [01:47:00] old. That doing an essay. Yeah, I love someone know, but get passionate in something. [01:47:05] Come on. All right.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing, [01:47:10] man. I really, really enjoyed it. Like I say, I think we could have kept going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, [01:47:15] unfortunately.

Giovanni Martino: I don’t know. I have a train, actually, to go back.

Payman Langroudi: Thank [01:47:20] you so much for doing this.

Giovanni Martino: Thank you for so much. I was very excited to do that.

Payman Langroudi: I can’t believe you know [01:47:25] when you were talking. I can’t believe I’ve only known you for 3 or 4 years. It feels much longer than that. Oh, really? I’m [01:47:30] a.

Giovanni Martino: Daddy now.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Amazing.

Giovanni Martino: Thank you very much. Thank [01:47:35] you so much. Thank you.

[VOICE]: This is Dental. Leaders [01:47:40] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:47:45] Your hosts, Payman Langroudi [01:47:50] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If [01:47:55] you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay [01:48:00] for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, [01:48:05] because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about [01:48:10] subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value [01:48:15] out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating. [01:48:20]

Payman Langroudi: You go to a new place, you almost reinvent yourself. Yes. Yeah. But, you know, I [00:00:05] found it a bit weird going from London to Cardiff yet, let alone Bulgaria. Yeah. [00:00:10] So? So you had to learn the language? Yeah, I had.

May Firoozmand: To learn the language. How long did it.

Payman Langroudi: Take you to get [00:00:15] to a point of feeling comfortable?

May Firoozmand: So sort of. We learned the language with the university [00:00:20] the first two years, and.

Payman Langroudi: That was part of the.

May Firoozmand: Course. Yeah. Well, that’s nice, but then we were up to our own devices. [00:00:25] Really. So you could continue the learning the language if you wanted to. And I thought, well, if I’m going to [00:00:30] be here six years, might as well keep practising with my Bulgarian friends. And I [00:00:35] made a lot of friends with the Bulgarian locals. They are such. So at first, you [00:00:40] know people, you know, they put up some sort of guard. But then when you break [00:00:45] the ice, people used to ask me, why are you always smiling? Why are you so happy? [00:00:50] Is there an ulterior motive? And I thought, no, I’m just a happy person. You break [00:00:55] through the ice and they are just such warm people.

[VOICE]: This [00:01:00] is Dental Leaders the [00:01:05] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:01:10] in dentistry. Your [00:01:15] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:01:20] gives me great pleasure to welcome my first man onto the podcast. May [00:01:25] is a young dentist who’s just qualified from Bulgaria. Um, [00:01:30] a treacherous journey to get there in the first place. And really someone [00:01:35] who’s of service. Um, when I when I looked at your profile and all that, [00:01:40] may it just look like someone who’s trying to be of service all the time. And I’d really like to get into the sort of [00:01:45] the backstory of that. Thanks a lot for coming in. Ah, thank.

May Firoozmand: You very much. It’s a pleasure to be here. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Back [00:01:50] in the UK again after all that time, huh?

May Firoozmand: Yes, I am, after six years.

Payman Langroudi: Six years? [00:01:55] Yeah. So your, um, journey to dentistry was [00:02:00] convoluted. Um, and then the actual journey in [00:02:05] dentistry. Was difficult in another country and all of that. [00:02:10] And yet you’ve got this sort of. Smile on your face, and you’re telling me now you’re going to thinking of [00:02:15] going to. Switzerland to become a dentist there, this sort of tenacity [00:02:20] and adventure that sort of. Seems to be part of you. Have you always [00:02:25] been that that person that from a child or. Did you have to develop that because [00:02:30] of circumstances?

May Firoozmand: I think since I’ve been a child, I was [00:02:35] very. Sort of open minded. Um, I would always smile, you know, always [00:02:40] say hello to to anyone. Really. Um, but I was brought up, you know, sort of with this [00:02:45] principle of trying to choose something. Trying to choose a career, um, where [00:02:50] I can be of service, you know, to to humanity, let’s say. To my community and [00:02:55] my father, my belated father who passed away during my first year of dental [00:03:00] school. Oh, he was my inspiration behind that, you know. Um. [00:03:05] And your.

Payman Langroudi: Doctor? Sorry. Was he a doctor?

May Firoozmand: Yes, he was a dentist. [00:03:10] A dentist? Yes. Yes, yes. Um, and, um, I remember, you [00:03:15] know, having this opportunity to observe him in his own private dental practice and [00:03:20] also listen to the stories of when he would go and do work, for example, [00:03:25] in Iceland. So when he graduated dentistry, um, in, in [00:03:30] Newcastle, he then went for his PhD in Aberdeen and then thought, okay, [00:03:35] I’m going to go to Iceland. Um, and he went to Acuri and [00:03:40] he went, you know, with his Jeep, with his little dental kit, um, to [00:03:45] provide dental services to the most rural communities. And he had this, [00:03:50] this spirit that, you know, um, work is sort of worship, [00:03:55] you know, this, The spirit of service, you know. How can I help this community? Which are [00:04:00] which? The Dental services are quite, you know, inaccessible. Um, and so, [00:04:05] you know, again, as from an early age, I had this sort of, you know, drive [00:04:10] and anything I should do, I should try to see, you know, how can I help others? [00:04:15] And so I saw dentistry as sort of this profession where it combines, [00:04:20] you know, your love for helping others as well as science, art, business, [00:04:25] a bundle of things, you know.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re [00:04:30] Baha’i?

May Firoozmand: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So explain for I mean, I know what a Baha’i is because I’m Iranian [00:04:35] and there’s Baha’is in Iran. But explain, explain. For someone who doesn’t know the religion, because I [00:04:40] would class myself as almost like it’s a, it’s a horrible word, but like [00:04:45] a secular extremist. And you’ll find a lot of Iranians in that, in that [00:04:50] bucket. Yeah. Because we’ve been we’ve been hit so hard by it, by religion as a country. But [00:04:55] when I look at Baha’i ism, the religion, it’s very attractive. It’s [00:05:00] very modern, number one. Right. Very new religion, yes, but very attractive, very accepting. [00:05:05] Just let’s just go through the what are the sort of the cornerstones of the religion and, and the history of it and [00:05:10] all that.

May Firoozmand: Sure. So the Baha’i Faith, the region in Iran, um, and [00:05:15] in 1844, in the city of Shiraz, there was this young Persian man, [00:05:20] and his name was the Bab. And he was, you know, sharing to the people [00:05:25] that the promised one is coming. And his name was Baha’u’llah, [00:05:30] the founder of the Baha’i Faith. And this Baha’i Faith, it’s all about, [00:05:35] um, um, embracing diversity, you know, and [00:05:40] unity in diversity. Um, and [00:05:45] so since a young age, I was actually brought up in a Baha’i family. Um, so [00:05:50] my mom is half German, half Italian, and my dad was Persian. Um, [00:05:55] so.

Payman Langroudi: Was your mum Bahai as well?

May Firoozmand: Before my mum.

Payman Langroudi: Converted.

May Firoozmand: So [00:06:00] my mum, her parents. So when she met my father, she was. She was also a Baha’i. There [00:06:05] are Baha’is all around the world. Um. And she. So [00:06:10] her parents, her mum is German from the Bavarian Alps and her, [00:06:15] her father is from Sicily. Okay. So they were both Catholic [00:06:20] and, um. So when they met, actually, my my grandpa, [00:06:25] he found about the he found out about the Baha’i Faith, um, from [00:06:30] this Persian man which was sitting in the train on the same way to Bari at the time. [00:06:35] Um, Bari is at the heel of the boot in [00:06:40] a region called Puglia. Yeah. And and he just. He was talking to this. [00:06:45] It wasn’t a man. It was actually a young boy his age. Um, and, [00:06:50] uh. Yeah, they just, you know they made friends. And this boy invited [00:06:55] my grandpa to their home, and they were just so warm and [00:07:00] welcoming. And, you know, they shared that they were Baha’is. And my grandpa, he fell in love with [00:07:05] this faith, you know, and, uh, and there’s [00:07:10] a beautiful quotation that I love to turn to while, you know, um, facing challenges [00:07:15] throughout life, you know, let go of vision, be world embracing, you know, um, [00:07:20] so, so yeah. So my mom so my grandpa, he, he [00:07:25] became a Baha’i and my mom was brought up also in a Baha’i family. [00:07:30] But you said.

Payman Langroudi: Unity and diversity. So what does that mean? Yes.

May Firoozmand: So if you take it as like a garden, [00:07:35] you know, full of different flowers, different types of flowers as well, and [00:07:40] you sort of see this garden as an analogy for the human race. You know, we [00:07:45] are all different. We are unique in our different ways. We come from different backgrounds. Um, [00:07:50] you know, we speak different languages. We’re coming from different walks of life. [00:07:55] And this is what makes us just so diverse. Um, just like that garden. [00:08:00] Each of us were just like a flower of that garden. And that’s what makes it just so [00:08:05] beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but. But then. Okay, as a practising [00:08:10] Baha’i, what are the sort of the cornerstones? Is there prayer? Is there what is there?

May Firoozmand: Yeah. [00:08:15] Um, so yes, we have prayer. Um, and we dedicate a [00:08:20] life to, as I said, you know, serving one’s community. So we [00:08:25] believe that. Yes, of course, it’s important to develop materialistically, you know, whether [00:08:30] that’s academically, um, whether that’s, you know, financial [00:08:35] gain and so on. But also at the same time, it’s important to have a spiritual education. [00:08:40] So I don’t know if you believe in that. We have a soul. Not really. Um, so [00:08:45] so I believe that we have a soul, you know, and it’s important to pray every day to, [00:08:50] to sort of, like, nourish this, this, this soul like prayers are like, um, you [00:08:55] know, like food for the soul. And if we don’t pray, we’re, like, starving it. Um, [00:09:00] but what made me stronger in my faith, especially, was when my father [00:09:05] passed away. Um, I remember arriving just a couple of hours after he [00:09:10] passed away. Um, just took the flight, took a train, went back. Um, and [00:09:15] actually, he passed away in the comfort of his own home. So I saw him there. Um, [00:09:20] and I remember seeing a prayer. We have different prayers for different, uh, let’s say occasions. [00:09:25] So, like the healing prayer or prayer for unity, a prayer for children. So I said the healing [00:09:30] prayer. But even though he was still there, I already felt that, you know, [00:09:35] his soul had already progressed into the next world. You know, I already felt him there [00:09:40] with me, you know, um, and there’s this beautiful quotation in the Baha’i [00:09:45] writings which says that death is a messenger of joy, you know? [00:09:50] Um, and I definitely see prayers for my father, you [00:09:55] know, to help his soul progress into the next world further. Um, [00:10:00] and.

Payman Langroudi: I think, you know, the the roadblock [00:10:05] I’ve got in my head that I’ve only recently tried to figure it out, to understand it. Yeah. Is [00:10:10] that spirituality itself, by its very nature, isn’t logical [00:10:15] and memorable. You know, it’s it’s the other. It’s all. It’s all it’s all of the [00:10:20] other stuff that isn’t the at that side of your brain that says two plus two equals four. [00:10:25] Yeah. So for me, I’d always had a difficulty sort of describing spirituality. [00:10:30] Only recently. It’s taken me like 50 years to figure out. Describing it isn’t really the point at [00:10:35] all. Yeah. It’s all about around feelings and and and peace and [00:10:40] these sort of things. Yes. Um, but you’re sort of [00:10:45] driver in that direction. How [00:10:50] strong is that? Is that like, would you say it’s the strongest driver in in in your [00:10:55] day to day or what.

May Firoozmand: Yeah. So I think [00:11:00] definitely it is. Yes, definitely it is. I mean, as I said before I try to.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry. [00:11:05] So so that sort of let’s call it altruism that comes from that. Right.

May Firoozmand: I [00:11:10] think, I think, um, I try to live my life which is aligned with the Baha’i principles. [00:11:15] Yeah, yeah. You know, and as I said, I try to put, you know, you know, whether it’s a faith, whether [00:11:20] it’s a religion in the centre of one’s life. So rather than just seeing it as one of the things, [00:11:25] you know, just like studies, sport. Um, and so on, it’s sort of [00:11:30] in the centre and everything sort of comes from that, you know, and, and I remember [00:11:35] when I was, when I was in Bulgaria, I remember people would come to me and say, [00:11:40] but May, you’re not the sort of, you know, like young adults that we see [00:11:45] today. You know, there’s there’s something about you. You know, you’re sort of different. But why? And [00:11:50] I was like, well, it’s definitely my faith, you know, it’s because I’m a Baha’i. Um, so [00:11:55] and sort of, you know, exercising these qualities and these virtues [00:12:00] of love, kindness, peace, unity, trustfulness, you know, [00:12:05] even every day, you know, between our between our colleagues, between our friends, between our family, [00:12:10] you know, and yeah, of course, you know, when I say, oh, I want to try to make the [00:12:15] world a better place, I feel that we’re all agents of change, you know, we’re like [00:12:20] a little light bulb and we have our own little light to shine, you know, and we can all make [00:12:25] a contribution to the betterment of the world. But I think it definitely starts within [00:12:30] our families. You know, if we can be of service within our family, then we do it [00:12:35] within the community. And then, you know, we see how we can help the world, you [00:12:40] know.

Payman Langroudi: That’s lovely, man. That’s lovely. So let’s talk about dentistry. [00:12:45] What was the first? When was the first time? Were you always going to be a dentist [00:12:50] because your dad was a dentist and and, you know, you you were. Because I’ve got kids [00:12:55] and neither of them want to be a dentist. Yeah. And I feel like I failed them somehow. I don’t even want [00:13:00] them to be a dentist, necessarily. I just want them to want to be a dentist. Mhm. What was your story [00:13:05] around that?

May Firoozmand: Um, so my story, um, so [00:13:10] as I said, when I was younger, I was sort of very open. You know, I love trying new things. [00:13:15] Yeah. Um, I love chatting. I love speaking to people. Um, [00:13:20] you know, I could speak to someone, you know, elderly man. I could speak to a little [00:13:25] child. I could speak to an older person. Uh, people my age. I just love speaking [00:13:30] to people and getting to know people. Um, I think definitely the spark of dentistry came. [00:13:35] Um, when I started observing how my father was working, you [00:13:40] know, in his private dental practice. So whenever I would see a patient walk through the [00:13:45] doors really, really nervous that they’re going to have a filling, they would walk out of the [00:13:50] doors with a smile on their face. They would feel reassured. And this kindness [00:13:55] that my my dad was sort of, you know, giving to these patients, it was just so beautiful [00:14:00] to see. And I thought, okay, there is this clinical side to dentistry. There’s the artistic [00:14:05] side, there’s the business side, but there is also that sort of, you know, uh, building [00:14:10] that, uh, patient, uh, clinician sort of relationship relationship, [00:14:15] which is really, really important. And sort of my dad’s motto, motto was, [00:14:20] you know, me the more sort of dirty, smelly, [00:14:25] the person that walks through the doors, the more kindness you give them. Um, so [00:14:30] it was, it was from then. And so I was observing this environment. I [00:14:35] didn’t quite still didn’t really understand. I knew it was about [00:14:40] the teeth. I knew that there were procedures, you know, to restore a tooth and so [00:14:45] on. But I didn’t really get into the science of it, you know.

Payman Langroudi: So you [00:14:50] did understand the relationship side of it.

May Firoozmand: I didn’t understand that quite early on. And that and. [00:14:55]

Payman Langroudi: That motivated you to want to be a dentist, just that. Exactly.

May Firoozmand: I wanted to go within the medical profession, [00:15:00] whether that was dentistry, whether that was a doctor, whether it was something with the sciences, [00:15:05] you know. Um, and so what.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of dentist was he insomuch as like, [00:15:10] he sounds like a pretty happy dentist. Yeah. Um, because and, you know, you [00:15:15] you I don’t know if this is like a stereotype to say if someone is of [00:15:20] faith and he’s trying to be of service, whatever he was doing, he would be happy. Yeah. Because it is [00:15:25] it is a happy way of of being. Yeah, yeah. But what would you say makes the difference between a happy [00:15:30] dentist and an unhappy one? Because there’s many happy dentists and [00:15:35] then there’s many unhappy dentists.

May Firoozmand: I think, I mean.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very early in your career to say [00:15:40] that, but just I’d just like to hear what comes to mind.

May Firoozmand: I think if you know your reasoning [00:15:45] behind going into dentistry, your reason, you know you have that drive. If you have that [00:15:50] motivation, that determination. Okay. If you write, I want to become financially [00:15:55] independent, especially for a woman. You know, dentistry is a wonderful path to go [00:16:00] into. And that’s why my dad encouraged me, you know, did he did it? It was between medicine [00:16:05] and dentistry. And I’m so happy I went into dentistry, because also, you got to choose a career [00:16:10] that plays on your strengths as well. So, you know, if you learn a skill [00:16:15] and you repeat this skill over and over again and you can improve and get better and better, [00:16:20] then why don’t choose a career? You know where it plays on that strength. Um, [00:16:25] so going back to your question of what makes it unhappy and happy, [00:16:30] I think if you know what made him happy.

Payman Langroudi: And what made him [00:16:35] happy about the job, like what did he love about the job?

May Firoozmand: Your dad he [00:16:40] loved dentistry. He always knew that he wanted to become a dentist. [00:16:45] Um, I think it was just knowing that, uh, helping people with their [00:16:50] smile, inspiring that confidence into them, you know, because one self-esteem [00:16:55] just with, you know, refining the smile, a bit of whitening, bit of straightening. [00:17:00] Um, and especially the oral hygiene of the patient, you know, it can go a long way and it can [00:17:05] improve, um, you know, their way of life, their lifestyle as well. It can [00:17:10] make them into a transform them into a into a different person. Really. Um, [00:17:15] so.

Payman Langroudi: But what kind of treatments did he do? Did he do a lot of cosmetics? [00:17:20]

May Firoozmand: He loved a restorative dentistry. Restorative? Yes, yes.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, so then what [00:17:25] was the journey? So how did you end up in in Bulgaria?

May Firoozmand: Yeah. So I studied the [00:17:30] IB, um, at Oakham. Then I did one year, um, in [00:17:35] Haifa. Um, I dedicated a year of voluntary work of service [00:17:40] in the Baha’i Gardens. And that was beautiful as well, because I was sort of doing.

Payman Langroudi: In between [00:17:45] school and university.

May Firoozmand: It was sort of like that one year gap whilst I [00:17:50] was figuring out, uh, kind of you could say like a gap year thinking, okay, where [00:17:55] am I going to go and study dentistry? Yeah. Um, so there it was wonderful because I sort of [00:18:00] tried to, um, develop qualities like patience, [00:18:05] even just, you know, planting flowers. There are a lot of things that, you know, there’s a whole [00:18:10] process behind it. And we were also working with so many youth from different cultures as well. [00:18:15] And so we had to work as a team to try to beautify these gardens, [00:18:20] you know. Um, so after that year, um, it was very, very beautiful. [00:18:25] And I thought, okay, this is a year of service, but the service isn’t ending. It’s just beginning. [00:18:30] Let’s now go into dentistry, the career that I always wanted to go into. Um, [00:18:35] so. But before going to Haifa. I did try to [00:18:40] apply, you know, to dental school here. Um, yeah. And the doors were closing, so I thought, [00:18:45] okay. Um, what were they saying?

Payman Langroudi: What was the reason?

May Firoozmand: Um, [00:18:50] you know, the grades weren’t sort of good. The IB grades. Yeah. Yeah. You know, because, you know, you’re competing [00:18:55] with so hard to get into dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Hard to get into dentistry? Yes it is. Especially nowadays, you know, in [00:19:00] my day. Pretty easy compared to today. Yes.

May Firoozmand: Yeah. My father told me. [00:19:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, it’s quite interesting question. Right. That the character [00:19:10] of a dentist who goes in with very high grades, and the character of [00:19:15] a dentist who goes in with not very high grades is a different character. Yeah.

May Firoozmand: I observed [00:19:20] that at university, actually. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And of course, there are advantages to these super [00:19:25] brains, you know, going in. But also in our day, it was more about practical [00:19:30] people, you know. It’s very interesting difference. And I’m interested in the difference [00:19:35] it makes to the dentist coming out the other end. A lot of anxiety in [00:19:40] in young dentists these days. Of course now there’s a lot of things to be anxious [00:19:45] about. So it’s all right. So you didn’t did you consoled yourself with you’re going to go abroad. [00:19:50]

May Firoozmand: Well, so during this sort of, let’s say voluntary work here, let’s [00:19:55] say I was sort of brainstorming of other ways to get into dentistry. [00:20:00] And so I came across studying dentistry in English in the Balkan region, [00:20:05] Romania, Bulgaria and so on. Had never been to this part of the [00:20:10] world before, you know. And so I thought, okay, um, let’s start the application. [00:20:15] So I started the application process while I was there. Did you look.

Payman Langroudi: At Spain or. No. Loads of people go [00:20:20] to Spain.

May Firoozmand: Yes, yes, I heard about Spain. About Valencia. Yes, but I heard that it was very, very [00:20:25] tricky to actually get in. Okay. Um, but I was sort of very open minded, you know, [00:20:30] I was sort of, I don’t know, I was drawn to the Balkan region. Um, so So [00:20:35] yes, I came across Bulgaria and it’s home to three renowned dental schools, [00:20:40] but I chose Varna because it’s a seaside coast town. Yeah. [00:20:45] Um, you know, so during break times and breaks between exams, you can just go [00:20:50] for a stroll. Also very beautiful. It’s very, very beautiful. Yeah, the Black Sea. Yeah. Um, [00:20:55] so, so. Yeah. So I went there.

Payman Langroudi: So what was it like when you got there? When you got [00:21:00] what were your first impressions when you got there?

May Firoozmand: Well, I’m originally from a little village [00:21:05] surrounded by the countryside. Whereabouts? Um, so near Oundle. Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Near [00:21:10] Peterborough? Yes.

May Firoozmand: So near Peterborough, but in a little village near Oundle. Yeah. And. [00:21:15] And so this village is very, very small, you know. Um, [00:21:20] so when I got to Varna, I remember arriving with other students [00:21:25] in the agency. We arrived around midnight. Um, so there were some [00:21:30] cars, you know, on the road. I remember looking up and thinking, oh wow, this is a sort [00:21:35] of big city for me at the time. Um, you know, then [00:21:40] we woke up the next day and I thought, oh, it was quite busy here. And we were just trying [00:21:45] to find somewhere to stay, a flat to stay before uni started, because university [00:21:50] was going to start two days after. So I had to get my bearings sort of [00:21:55] like very, very quickly. Um, so, but um, slowly, [00:22:00] slowly. It did take some time. I think from third year onwards, [00:22:05] that’s when I sort of realised, um, I’ve got to embrace this new culture. [00:22:10] Yeah. You know, I’ve got to adapt. Um, I can’t bring my old ways [00:22:15] of doing something into a new country, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Um, by the way, it took it took me [00:22:20] a couple of years to adjust to Cardiff. You know, it’s something.

May Firoozmand: It’s a good. [00:22:25]

Payman Langroudi: Thing. It’s a good thing because you go to a new place, you almost reinvent yourself. Yes. [00:22:30] Yeah. But, you know, I found it a bit weird going from London to Cardiff yet, let [00:22:35] alone Bulgaria. Yeah, so? So you had to learn the language?

May Firoozmand: Yeah, I had to learn [00:22:40] the language. Um, was that hard?

Payman Langroudi: Or were you naturally good?

May Firoozmand: I can speak a couple of words if you would [00:22:45] like. Sure.

Payman Langroudi: How do you say. How do you say? Uh. A pleasure to meet you. Root canal treatment [00:22:50] in Bulgaria.

May Firoozmand: So root canal treatment, you can say. Listen now, Papa. And [00:22:55] if I say it was a pleasure to meet you. Prijatno means das zupa [00:23:00] znam. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So how long did it take you to get to a point of feeling comfortable? [00:23:05]

May Firoozmand: So sort of. We learned the language with the university the first two years, and that was.

Payman Langroudi: Part [00:23:10] of the course.

May Firoozmand: Yeah. Well, that’s nice, but then we were up to our own devices. Really. So you could continue the learning [00:23:15] the language if you wanted to. And I thought, well, if I’m going to be here six years, I might [00:23:20] as well keep practising with my Bulgarian friends. And I made a lot of friends with the Bulgarian locals. [00:23:25] They are such. So at first, you know, people, you know, [00:23:30] they put up some sort of guard. But then when you break the ice, people used to ask [00:23:35] me, why are you always smiling? Why are you so happy? Is there an ulterior motive? [00:23:40] And I thought, no, I’m just a happy person. You break through the ice and they’re just such [00:23:45] warm people.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I don’t know if I did a podcast with Jurgita [00:23:50] Sebti, who’s from Lithuania, and she [00:23:55] was saying that Eastern European mentality is they call it an egg mentality as [00:24:00] opposed to the Western, which is a peach mentality. Right? And she was saying the peach is [00:24:05] soft.

May Firoozmand: Have you heard of that analogy before?

Payman Langroudi: She was saying soft on the outside. But then when you get right to the middle you hit [00:24:10] the stone. Whereas with an egg it’s hard on the outside, but once you break through, then it’s [00:24:15] soft. Exactly, exactly.

May Firoozmand: Um. And.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:24:20] So so so so you found friends? Bulgarian friends? Yeah.

May Firoozmand: So?

Payman Langroudi: So [00:24:25] how about the other students? Were they all from other countries or were they from Bulgaria?

May Firoozmand: So within the within the Dental [00:24:30] university environment. Of course, you’ve got the international students and you’ve [00:24:35] got the Bulgarian students. So we would never have lessons at the same time. Um, [00:24:40] and so there was a point when I thought, okay, I’m always with these international students. So groups are [00:24:45] quite small actually. Where were.

Payman Langroudi: They from? From the UK. A lot of them.

May Firoozmand: Um, so my group, we were only 11 people. [00:24:50] I had a colleague from Cyprus, from Greece. Um, I had two [00:24:55] colleagues from, from Peterborough. I was like Peterborough, how come we meet [00:25:00] here in Varna? How funny. Um, so that was quite funny. Um, a lot of Germans, [00:25:05] um, other English colleagues as well. So it’s sort of like a mix. Um, [00:25:10] but after some time I realised that, you know, the Bulgarian students [00:25:15] and the English students or the international students, we wouldn’t really see each other. So [00:25:20] I thought it would be a nice opportunity to see opportunities where we could sort of mix, you [00:25:25] know. So I came across the opportunity to become a member of the Dental sort [00:25:30] of student association of the university. Um, you know, spoke with [00:25:35] the head there. Um, and he said, May, you’re welcome. You’re welcome to come. It’s going to be a challenge, [00:25:40] I’m not going to lie, he said, because of the language, because we have our own our own culture, [00:25:45] our own ways of doing something. But, you know, if we can work as a team, it will [00:25:50] be wonderful, you know? And it was nice to be encircled with like [00:25:55] minded individuals, young students, you know, aspiring to be good dentists, [00:26:00] um, to do dental campaigns within the community, to do dental projects [00:26:05] together to promote the importance of oral health. Um, and [00:26:10] we would just work as a team trying, you know, in the spirit of unity to create beautiful [00:26:15] things. And of course, there were challenges on the way, I’m not going to lie. But we did try to [00:26:20] overcome them, you know, in the spirit of consultation.

Payman Langroudi: And so in Bulgaria, [00:26:25] you have to provide your own patience. Is that is that one of the [00:26:30] major challenges?

May Firoozmand: Yes it is. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So is it not is it not a group of people who can’t afford dentistry? [00:26:35] And you can just go to them and say, hey, I can give you is it free or do they pay still?

May Firoozmand: So it is a walk [00:26:40] in sort of dental university clinic free, um, not free or [00:26:45] cheap. But the you know, the fee is very, very, very small. Okay. So for example, like [00:26:50] a dental examination. So there they will call it dental. And it is like [00:26:55] uh like five leva which is like £2.50. Um, and yeah, [00:27:00] we were responsible in finding our own patients.

Payman Langroudi: So, so and is there a quota [00:27:05] system like there is here. Like you have to do this many crowns, this many Indos? Yes, exactly.

May Firoozmand: Is that what it was? [00:27:10] So for each year, you know, you would have like a certain number of Indos for [00:27:15] single rooted teeth, for multi-rooted teeth, a certain number of fillings. And you would keep track [00:27:20] of all of them, you know, um, in order to sort of surpass and pass [00:27:25] the year in order to go to the next year. So it was challenging at first, [00:27:30] you know, trying to find different creative ways in trying to build [00:27:35] up a patient diary. Um, so, you know, at first I was sort of like, you know, [00:27:40] trying to follow all my other colleagues and we were writing Facebook posts, um, [00:27:45] and asking, you know, my name is this or my name is May. Come and join us at the Dental [00:27:50] University or offering more or less cheap dental services. [00:27:55] Um, but it wasn’t really working for me. You know, no patients were coming in. Um, [00:28:00] so I just thought, okay, let’s find another way. Let’s create little business cards. [00:28:05] Let’s go, you know, to the florists. Let’s go to the Baker Bakery. [00:28:10] Um, let’s go to the nail salon. And there I was, just speaking with local [00:28:15] people, you know, and we would open up. And then I would say at some time, actually, [00:28:20] they would say to me, there was in one scenario she said, um, you’re a dental student. [00:28:25] I need a filling. Can I come? I said, oh, it’s not a problem, you know. So [00:28:30] she came. And just by making hopefully one happy patient, she brought [00:28:35] the whole family, the kids and so on. And so that, you know, word spread [00:28:40] across the community. It’s quite a small town, more or less. Um, so the news [00:28:45] travels quite fast. I think, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Like a lot of what you’re saying are the [00:28:50] principles of business in general, right? Mhm. Make [00:28:55] make patients happy. Um, get out there and, you know, things [00:29:00] I’m really bad at, you know, like for instance, personally I wouldn’t, wouldn’t, wouldn’t. I’m not [00:29:05] good at saying, hey, come and talk to me. It’s just not something I’m good at. Media, [00:29:10] if you like hiring an agency to put out an advert and all of that sort of thing. Yeah, [00:29:15] but person, that personal thing of going out and doing things, you’ll find it’s going to serve [00:29:20] you well in whatever endeavour you choose to, to follow, you [00:29:25] know. And I noticed, for instance, you’re writing a lot of articles in dentistry magazine like that. That doesn’t happen by mistake. [00:29:30] Did it. You approached them, right? Mhm.

May Firoozmand: Yeah. I just sort of I wanted [00:29:35] to develop like whilst I was at university, I thought I really would like to try to write [00:29:40] some articles. Why I had never, I just wanted to develop [00:29:45] and improve a skill really another skill.

Payman Langroudi: Um, yeah. But didn’t you have enough problems? [00:29:50]

May Firoozmand: The thing is, I’m in the supreme of dental skills. And the thing is, I’m in this. I’ve always liked [00:29:55] to do lots of different things.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it looks like it.

May Firoozmand: But I’m in this frame of mind is if you don’t see [00:30:00] the opportunity in front of you, maybe in that area or in that country. Yeah. Um, [00:30:05] look outside and be open, you know? So [00:30:10] what? I remember writing my first article and thinking, my goodness, I don’t know what I’m doing. [00:30:15] The layout, you know, what kind of style. And slowly, slowly. I just really [00:30:20] enjoyed it. You know, there’s lots of improvements that have to be made. But, [00:30:25] you know, a we make mistakes throughout life and we learn new skills. This is, [00:30:30] you know, what makes the journey of life quite sort of fun and, you know, interesting. And have you [00:30:35] tried.

Payman Langroudi: Social media.

May Firoozmand: What, building up a an [00:30:40] Insta. Yeah. Slowly, slowly. I’m trying TikTok or uh, no, [00:30:45] I haven’t really I’ve tried to create, um, my little Insta page, which [00:30:50] I just got up a couple of months ago. Um, but, uh, I [00:30:55] think definitely, you know, social media such as Instagram, maybe TikTok as well, [00:31:00] and these podcasts as well, they’re such a powerful tool, you know, to transmit [00:31:05] powerful messages and important messages out there in society. Um, so, [00:31:10] yeah, it can be used in both, you know, good and. Yeah, but [00:31:15] constructive ways.

Payman Langroudi: My point is, my point is some people have something to say and, and [00:31:20] The impact they want to make. Yeah. Yeah. Uh. Others don’t. [00:31:25] Yeah. And there’s no right or wrong about it. Yeah. Some people don’t want to share. [00:31:30] Yeah. But you do. It’s clear. Yeah. [00:31:35] So if you do want to share, for instance, if I want to tell the story of enlighten. Yeah. Yes. [00:31:40] I have to go on social media. Yeah. Not personally that I do, but. But [00:31:45] the brand has to go on social media. Yeah. Because it has a story to tell. Yes. Yeah. So [00:31:50] if you have a story to tell, it needs to be on social media right now. Right. There’s no [00:31:55] other way. It’s the only way of really getting travelling fast.

May Firoozmand: Yeah. [00:32:00] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, I’m kind of interested in the why more than the [00:32:05] tactics. Yeah. And I get it. And I hear what you say about the way you were brought up. [00:32:10] Yeah. That’s a big factor in everything that we do. Um, [00:32:15] but have you heard of effective altruism?

May Firoozmand: Um yes. [00:32:20]

Payman Langroudi: It’s got a bad name.

May Firoozmand: Uh, more or less.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know what I mean by it? Is it so [00:32:25] there’s an idea that you going out and [00:32:30] doing check-ups on Children in Need? Yeah. [00:32:35] Is one form of giving. Yeah. But is the end goal [00:32:40] the thing we get out of that? Is that the pleasure [00:32:45] you get from it? Or is the end goal the number of children that get [00:32:50] seen? Yeah. And so, for instance, if I was going to do that. Yes. It [00:32:55] wouldn’t make sense for me to do it. If, if, if the number of children that are being seen [00:33:00] is the end goal, it would make much more sense for me to go off and do whatever, whatever [00:33:05] it is that makes me the most amount of money and then pay a bunch of people to go and do that. Yeah. And [00:33:10] that, that sort of motivation [00:33:15] for doing charity work. Mhm. And the notion of, if I’m driving this [00:33:20] truck and I’ve got bread in the back of my truck and I handing out bread to the hungry. Yeah. [00:33:25] Is it the thrill I’m getting by? The power I’m getting by by. If I don’t drive my truck. [00:33:30] This guy goes hungry. Is it the. The little dopamine rush I get when I hand [00:33:35] the bread? Is that what I’m in it for? Or am I in it for feeding the [00:33:40] hungry? You know, what are your thoughts around that subject?

May Firoozmand: I think [00:33:45] I mean, I can sort of maybe apply this concept in whilst [00:33:50] I was studying abroad, in which it was sort of like the process. Okay. So you’ve got this goal [00:33:55] of becoming a dentist. Okay. Let’s find different ways whilst you [00:34:00] are as a student in how you can help sort of the community. So I [00:34:05] would take the time to people who are saying, hey, what are you doing in your free time? We never [00:34:10] see you at parties. I wasn’t really the party person, to be honest, and so I would [00:34:15] sort of like speak with local people. And I had this dear friend of mine and she opened a [00:34:20] children’s bookshop. And so from there we really created [00:34:25] a lovely bond of friendship. And she said, May. As you are a native British speaker, do [00:34:30] you want to come along every Sunday and read? You know the author of [00:34:35] The Gruffalo? Yeah. Uh, Julia Donaldson. Exactly. [00:34:40] And so I would just start reading these stories, you know, um, to kids. To kids. [00:34:45] Yes. And so she created, like, this really nice, inviting atmosphere outside [00:34:50] her children’s bookshop and encourage so many kids from the community. [00:34:55] First we started off with five, then ten with 2025, and we grew [00:35:00] gradually. Then she said to me, May, shall we? Um, I’m [00:35:05] going to open up in a little centre now. We’ve still got the bookshop, but what [00:35:10] about we? Now? Rather than just having storytelling, we create little children’s classes. [00:35:15] Okay. And they can also have like a sign up sheet.

May Firoozmand: So slowly, slowly, rather [00:35:20] than it being, you know, um, one Sunday a month we would do [00:35:25] every Saturdays and Sundays at this little centre. Still kids would come [00:35:30] and not only the kids from the community would come together and make new friendships [00:35:35] and listen to a native British speaker. But also the mothers would [00:35:40] sort of say, oh, you know, I’m not I’m not [00:35:45] the only one. We’re all in the same boat. And they would speak with the other mothers and a sense of community, a [00:35:50] sense of community, you know, friendships would be born. And then after that, my [00:35:55] friend said to me, we want to go on a larger scale. Now we’re going to buy a whole [00:36:00] sort of building and create different activities. Would you like to join [00:36:05] our team? I said, yes, I would love to. And shortly after, you know, I left my time in Varna [00:36:10] was coming to an end. But do you see that? You know, from one little idea. [00:36:15] You go to another step, but it comes with stages to reach the [00:36:20] end goal. But it’s not necessarily the result or the end goal that matters for me. For [00:36:25] me, it’s the process. The people you come across, the networking, [00:36:30] the relationships that you’ve created, what challenges you’ve come across [00:36:35] and what solutions you’ve tried to find on the way that makes you a stronger [00:36:40] person. So yeah, not necessarily. It is the result. Very interesting. [00:36:45]

Payman Langroudi: Very interesting, very interesting that you’ve looked at it that way. So if you look going [00:36:50] forward you’re going to be doing dentistry hopefully. Um, do you think on [00:36:55] the service side, if you could sort of wave a magic wand? And I know waving the magic wand doesn’t help you [00:37:00] because you like the process, right. But but do you think you’re going to do something dental [00:37:05] charity wise? Go for. And I noticed you did this rowing thing. Explain [00:37:10] that. Was it like ultramarathon? What was it, 100 miles?

May Firoozmand: 100km. [00:37:15]

Payman Langroudi: 100km of rowing.

May Firoozmand: I did two as well.

Payman Langroudi: Two in a.

May Firoozmand: Row? [00:37:20] Uh, no. Two.

Payman Langroudi: You did? Twice.

May Firoozmand: One. And then five days after. So? So [00:37:25] basically, are you.

Payman Langroudi: Super, super super fit?

May Firoozmand: Not really. No. It’s it’s. You [00:37:30] just.

Payman Langroudi: Decided to go for.

May Firoozmand: This. The mind. And also I love the sport. I think basically, [00:37:35] you know, it was coming towards the end of my studies in Barnum and I thought, May I really [00:37:40] want to do something to sort of mark the end and I want to create [00:37:45] this sense of community, you know. And so I sort of like called some friends [00:37:50] and I said, look, you know, we did a marathon a couple of years ago together alongside [00:37:55] each other, rowing on the machine. What about we create a larger event? [00:38:00] So there was a lot of planning behind it because it wasn’t the the rowing [00:38:05] wasn’t sort of the main thing behind it. It was more of finding [00:38:10] which day to do it on 1st of June International Children’s Day. So [00:38:15] we celebrated that. Then we thought, okay, there in the Balkan region, [00:38:20] it’s not very well known to do, you know, like here in England, you set up [00:38:25] a JustGiving account, you choose your charity and you raise, you know, the funds there. [00:38:30] It’s not very popular. Um, so I thought, okay, let’s choose a Bulgarian [00:38:35] charity to support. Um, so we chose a charity. It was called [00:38:40] um Plus Mesh, which is called the Teddy Bear Charity, supporting [00:38:45] children who don’t have parents and who would like to pursue a secondary [00:38:50] education, and who are the aspiring teachers and doctors and, [00:38:55] you know, artists and dentists of today. So we chose that charity as well. [00:39:00] And this was a charity. Little did we know, very, very close to many people’s [00:39:05] hearts. So we raised over £6,000. We had over 500 participants [00:39:10] And yes, we had the rowing machine. I was rowing, [00:39:15] um, basically we were changing every three kilometres with this other, with this other friend [00:39:20] of mine, and we were from two different realities like I was.

May Firoozmand: He was a local, [00:39:25] I was an international student. He had a family. But it was just so beautiful to see [00:39:30] how the sport brought us together. And so we had other machines [00:39:35] lined up. It encouraged local participation. Everyone was given a certificate at the [00:39:40] end, you know, they were rewarded for rowing 200m or something. Um, [00:39:45] but it was just I think, yeah, I had the initiative. I had just the [00:39:50] idea. But I think the success of the event was that everyone came together, you [00:39:55] know, um, like from, from, um, the local radio [00:40:00] actually gave us the venue and they supported us and actually promoting the event, the [00:40:05] local radio station, you know, invited us to go and speak and say, what was the inspiration [00:40:10] behind it? What’s the purpose behind it? Um, so we did that [00:40:15] and that was just really, really nice, you know, to do. Um, and then I thought, [00:40:20] well, let’s do another one in the UK was at a much smaller [00:40:25] scale. I think the planning had to be refined a little bit because more, more of the energy [00:40:30] was going into the Bulgarian one, but this one was for Dentaid and the dental team. [00:40:35] They really, really supported me and, you know, helped me in trying to get this initiative [00:40:40] up and going. So I did it at the Oundle Sports Centre and all the schoolkids [00:40:45] would be, you know, walking past. And there was one little boy that looked at me and smiled [00:40:50] and just started cheering me on. And then everyone continued, um, had the support of my [00:40:55] sister. Um, and that was another hundred K, but that was a solo challenge. [00:41:00] Wow. Um, so that was doing all on my own. And I remember that take it [00:41:05] took around eight hours, eight.

Payman Langroudi: Hours on the rowing.

[TRANSITION]: Machine.

May Firoozmand: Yeah. And I [00:41:10] remember it’s all about the power of the mind. Because the half way mark, I thought, I can’t [00:41:15] do this. And I remember looking at my sister and she said, yes, you can. You’ve just finished dental [00:41:20] school. You’ve already done the half way mark. Let’s go. And she was like my emotional [00:41:25] support. Um, and, um, but it was, it was it was an [00:41:30] interesting experience and I really wanted to support Dental the small contribution, [00:41:35] you know, that that we did. But I really want to, you know, take this opportunity to thank each and [00:41:40] every, you know, friend or person or colleague that donated, um, you [00:41:45] know, to to make this possible.

Payman Langroudi: So interesting that, that, you know, [00:41:50] much of what you’re saying is reliant on sort of the best of humanity [00:41:55] and thinking the best of people. And when when there’s a purpose [00:42:00] led thing, people open doors, right? The radio station, the sports centre or whatever. [00:42:05] Does that leave you when you look at the worst of humanity. Does that [00:42:10] leave you sort of more damaged than the rest of us? [00:42:15] Like when I’m. When I’m. If. Did you feel like now, when you look at the world on [00:42:20] fire like it is at the moment, do you think, do you see a solution that that [00:42:25] comes from this way of thinking that on a bigger scale. Mm.

May Firoozmand: I think [00:42:30] especially, you know, as, as a youth, we are exposed to so many forces. Yeah. [00:42:35] Constructive forces, but also destructive forces. And we’ve got to protect [00:42:40] ourselves and shield ourselves from these destructive forces, the wars [00:42:45] that are happening in the world at the moment, the too much consumption of social media [00:42:50] occupying our time and influencing us to, I don’t know, to all follow a [00:42:55] specific trend or all be the same. No, we’re all different, you know, so we’ve got to sort of shield [00:43:00] ourselves from this. But yes, you know, of course there are [00:43:05] lots of things are going to happen in the world. They’re going to continue happening in the world. They’re going to get more [00:43:10] and more dire the situation. But if we are, if each, each and [00:43:15] every one of us, you know, takes this responsibility to try to walk this path of service, [00:43:20] then, you know, slowly, slowly we can make the world a better place together. [00:43:25]

Payman Langroudi: So along the same lines, if something happens in your life [00:43:30] that feels totally unfair, or if something to someone else. [00:43:35]

May Firoozmand: Happened with the death of my father. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or to someone else, you know, like a death of a child or something. [00:43:40] Does that make you question your faith, ever? Or no. Does it strengthen your faith? Well, how do you [00:43:45] feel about it?

May Firoozmand: Strengthens.

Payman Langroudi: So to take take me through it. Like if something awful happens, something that feels totally, [00:43:50] totally unfair, how does that how does that feed back into thinking? That’s part of God’s [00:43:55] plan sort of thing.

May Firoozmand: So I think I can definitely I think challenges within [00:44:00] this life are there to make us stronger. You know um, [00:44:05] and to prepare us for the next world. But I remember, [00:44:10] you know, experiencing, you know, the death of my father. It was, [00:44:15] you know.

Payman Langroudi: The worst thing that’s ever happened to you.

May Firoozmand: I really think [00:44:20] so. And I think I didn’t actually have time to even mourn, because I [00:44:25] had to go back and do the exams while everyone was returning home for the Christmas [00:44:30] holidays. I was returning to go and do the exam. Um, but then when Covid [00:44:35] hit.

Payman Langroudi: That’s pre-COVID. That happened.

May Firoozmand: Pre-covid. One year before. [00:44:40] Um, but then when when Covid hit, there was time. I actually was at [00:44:45] home for seven months. And that was the time when we really had time to [00:44:50] reflect and think, you know, what had happened. But even with, as you said, even [00:44:55] with the death of someone, yes, it is emotional, you know, and and I was thinking, [00:45:00] you know, why did this have to happen to us? You know, why we always question why? [00:45:05] You know, um. But I see it. I love this beautiful [00:45:10] analogy as as a as a bird in a cage, you know, like, the cage [00:45:15] resembles the body of a human, and the bird resembles [00:45:20] the soul of a human being. And so in this life, you know that the cage is sort of around [00:45:25] the bird. It’s enclosed. But when we pass away, the cage opens up [00:45:30] and the bird is able to fly, you know, into a much more beautiful place. And that’s [00:45:35] how I see it, you know. Um, so, yeah, of course, my father [00:45:40] isn’t here in physical presence, but, um, I always [00:45:45] believe that there is always a reason behind something happening. I can [00:45:50] apply it to my life, you know? Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:45:55] tell me about the relationship you had with your father. And did you feel like [00:46:00] you’d missed out on him because you were away.

May Firoozmand: So while I was away for six years. [00:46:05] Well, yeah. That’s, um, quite a deep question. [00:46:10] Um, I think that, um, I always looked up to my father, both my mum [00:46:15] and my father, and they have supported me. You know, with every challenge we’ve come across, [00:46:20] they’ve always supported me. Um, and, um, I [00:46:25] remember not knowing at the time, but the, the last [00:46:30] sort of, uh, let’s say time I spent with my father, I took some weeks off from university. [00:46:35] It was during the first year I went home, you know, and just spent time [00:46:40] with my father. But like the little little moments, sort of, you know, like, built up to [00:46:45] much larger memories that now I think back now, um, and I remember one time [00:46:50] he was lying on the couch and he said, me, can you read? Can you read something? Um, [00:46:55] can you read? Uh, I don’t know, a couple of paragraphs from this book. And the book [00:47:00] was fire and gold. And it was about, um, challenges that are thrown at you, [00:47:05] you know, during life. So I just started reading because usually [00:47:10] when I was a child, you would read to me, and he had just such a beautiful, sort of eloquent [00:47:15] voice. I loved listening to it. So I thought, oh, blimey, now I’m [00:47:20] now I have to read. So I just started reading and I remember there was [00:47:25] just, um, there was a pause. I sort of paused because my phone started ringing, [00:47:30] vibrating. And I remember that moment just pushing the [00:47:35] phone aside and thinking, no, it’s not important. Thinking I have a.

Payman Langroudi: Choice [00:47:40] right to on what I focus exactly.

May Firoozmand: At that moment, because I think, you [00:47:45] know, life is just full of distractions. But I remember at that moment specifically just pushing [00:47:50] it aside. And there was a pause, quite a long pause. And my father, he opened his eyes. [00:47:55] Me? What’s happened? Everything okay? What beautiful For reading, [00:48:00] and it just made me. I just had this, you know, this smile that [00:48:05] came across my face and just, you know, continued reading, um, and we just, you [00:48:10] know, chatted a couple of times. And I remember the last time, you know, giving him [00:48:15] a hug, not knowing at the time, um, walking through the doors, [00:48:20] going back to Bulgaria and then, you know, shortly after hearing, you [00:48:25] know, I think it’s time to come back. And then arriving a couple of hours after he passed away. [00:48:30] Um, but but I think it was a very special, sort of, you [00:48:35] know, bond, father, daughter. Um, do you have brothers and sisters as [00:48:40] well? Yes, I do, yeah. I’m the eldest. Um, I’ve got a younger brother who’s 17, um, and [00:48:45] also a younger sister as well. Yeah. Who’s 20, who’s also an aspiring dentist as well. [00:48:50]

Payman Langroudi: Was studying where.

May Firoozmand: Um, so she’s at the moment studying biomed, but [00:48:55] she’s, you know, in the UK. Uh, yes.

Payman Langroudi: I.

May Firoozmand: Think [00:49:00] I was the only one that thought dentistry. I’ll even travel to the other side of the world to, [00:49:05] uh, yeah, to study that. So with your with.

Payman Langroudi: Your sort of limited experience of [00:49:10] dentistry.

May Firoozmand: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: What are your thoughts on where which direction in dentistry [00:49:15] you’re going to go? Yeah.

May Firoozmand: At the moment it’s, I think too early [00:49:20] to say, but to be open minded. Um, I really [00:49:25] like oral surgery. Do you? And, yes. You like blood. [00:49:30] I would love to be a specialist. And to be honest with you, um, I’ve had [00:49:35] just such beautiful experiences. I went to Heidelberg, um, two years [00:49:40] ago. And Heidelberg University. Yeah. Um, in the maxillofacial department, [00:49:45] I was there. Um, I also went to just recently. I came back, [00:49:50] actually from from Switzerland, from a lovely little town, 20 minutes from Zurich [00:49:55] in the canton of Aargau, a place called around and I was there in the Cest Landing [00:50:00] clinic. Again, the craniofacial department. But it was oral surgery and [00:50:05] it was Max FACs. Um, and it was just an incredible [00:50:10] experience, you know, and this sort of like inspired me to go down that route. [00:50:15] Um, are.

Payman Langroudi: You open to the sacrifice that that would mean? I mean, that’s that’s [00:50:20] Max.

May Firoozmand: Max. That’s Max facts. Um, so oral surgery.

Payman Langroudi: Implants?

May Firoozmand: I [00:50:25] think oral surgery. Um, I think, you know, while I was there in East London, [00:50:30] I observed these surgeons who were taking, you know, 100 wisdom teeth out a day. [00:50:35] 100 a day. Yes. And, you know, for impacted wisdom [00:50:40] teeth a day. And for me, it became more like an art. I [00:50:45] don’t know if you can follow me, but. Or if you can relate. But to me, it wasn’t just like extracting a [00:50:50] tooth. It was. It was an art in itself, you know, and they were trying to sort of like [00:50:55] teach me a couple of top tips and. But the more I saw it, the more I like sort of fell in love [00:51:00] with it. Um, so and then as well as that also saw much [00:51:05] larger cases. Um, orthognathic surgery, which is something I just [00:51:10] love. Um, but I think I’ll just keep it as a passion. Um, although.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:51:15] know, that execution of a treatment could be [00:51:20] a composite filling. Exactly. Especially with some of our biomimetic friends. [00:51:25] I don’t know if you’ve seen the, you know, some of the work they do. Yeah. Um, and the life of a dentist [00:51:30] is one piece of art after another.

May Firoozmand: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: You know, whether [00:51:35] it’s taking out a wisdom tooth or whether it’s prepping or whether it’s the mix of those things. [00:51:40] Yeah, exactly. But my my observation would be there’s enough dentists who are scared of blood [00:51:45] like me here that if you’re not scared of blood. Yeah, certainly. Look [00:51:50] into implants, you know, at your stage. Mhm. Get into it.

May Firoozmand: I loved [00:51:55] Perio and Implantology.

Payman Langroudi: The thing about Implantology, though, is that it’s all or nothing kind of field. [00:52:00] You know where if you want to go into it, you have to throw everything at it and it might be too early [00:52:05] to make that decision. Mhm.

May Firoozmand: Um, yeah. As I said I’m like open at the moment. [00:52:10] And you know I may like start, start working and thinking oh I really like this field [00:52:15] or I like this field. Yeah I think the underlying question is do you want [00:52:20] to become a specialist in just one thing, or would you like to do a little bit of everything? [00:52:25] You know, it’s always this sort of question that comes about.

Payman Langroudi: I think my [00:52:30] view on it is you need to get better at stuff.

May Firoozmand: Exactly. And implement what you’ve learned from uni. [00:52:35] I think my dad gave me the best piece of advice. Maybe it’s practice, practice, practice, [00:52:40] practice. You know the protocol. Now just practice and get better and better.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:52:45] well, uni is very early, right? You’ve done nothing. Yeah, but.

May Firoozmand: But then do uni [00:52:50] in Bulgaria. We started seeing patients from third year Dear. And, you know, [00:52:55] saw quite a lot of patients if you could find them. So there was a lot of practice there, but [00:53:00] compared to some.

Payman Langroudi: Compared to some. Yeah. Because I know someone who went in Prague and [00:53:05] he, he’d done hardly any dentistry. Um, and some of the people who qualified in Covid here [00:53:10] done hardly any dentistry before or much less dentistry than, than than they were [00:53:15] supposed to do. Yeah. Um, but going forward, I don’t know. The thing is here [00:53:20] that this question of something popping out at you and you’re thinking, I’m going to love this thing [00:53:25] now doesn’t tend to happen just by itself. It comes from looking into [00:53:30] stuff like you’ve looked like you’ve been looking into oral surgery. Yeah. You’ve done these two oral [00:53:35] surgery placements. Yeah. And now I bet you know a lot more about wisdom tooth extraction [00:53:40] than I do. Yeah. Little tips and tricks on how to protect the nerve. Or, you know, which [00:53:45] ones need cutting and which ones don’t. So what I’m saying is you’re improving at it. As soon as you start improving [00:53:50] it, something, it starts becoming more interesting. Um, so improve [00:53:55] improve it a few things, but I don’t know. My view on it is is to less [00:54:00] generalise. But I’m I’m definitely not in the majority. The majority [00:54:05] of people think generalise generalise generalise now and then specialise later. [00:54:10] Yeah. So now looking for a job.

May Firoozmand: Yes. [00:54:15]

Payman Langroudi: Have you been on many interviews here.

May Firoozmand: I’ve been on a couple. Yeah. [00:54:20] So I’m still waiting for um, I’ll be applying for the GDC GDC [00:54:25] number shortly after the graduation ceremony in, in October, which is exciting. [00:54:30] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And what, you’ve got a digital CV?

May Firoozmand: Yes. [00:54:35] Yeah. Like a PDF. That and a cover letter. And I thought maybe to [00:54:40] I during university I created and compiled a couple of, uh, clinical [00:54:45] cases that I had done and just thought to send that out to, um, [00:54:50] but I’m very open. You know where to go really within the UK. I just really would [00:54:55] like, you know, to fight. I think for me, at this stage, it’s really, really important to find a mentor. [00:55:00] I mean, someone I would like to go into private dentistry, but when I say a [00:55:05] mentor, I mean so much more than that. You know someone who shares the same passion as you. Someone [00:55:10] who can, um, sort of who’s really passionate within that field [00:55:15] of dentistry, who can sort of guide you, you know, and I think, again, [00:55:20] at this stage, it’s really important to encircle yourself with positive people, you [00:55:25] know, and a good environment where you can thrive.

Payman Langroudi: I’d say mentors. [00:55:30]

May Firoozmand: Mentors. Exactly. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because sometimes mentors implies there is this one person. [00:55:35]

May Firoozmand: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Um, you know, the other thing that I’ve noticed is very [00:55:40] many people will help if you ask them for help. Um, [00:55:45] very many people. It’s very few who won’t. Yeah. You know, if you if you [00:55:50] send a private message to a famous dentist. Yeah, [00:55:55] that dentist will try his best to help, you know. And I [00:56:00] didn’t realise this in my day. There wasn’t private messages, right? But I didn’t realise how. [00:56:05] What a big thing that is when you look at different people and not just dentists, by the way, in the world of business as well. [00:56:10] Yeah, people who ask for help tend to go a lot further than [00:56:15] people who don’t ask for help. And shy people are very shy when it comes to this [00:56:20] sort of thing. Yeah. It doesn’t serve you to be shy at all. Yeah, it’s [00:56:25] much better if you happy to ask questions and all of that. Yeah.

May Firoozmand: I love reaching out to yeah [00:56:30] yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know shadowing. Yes. Um, I had a guy on [00:56:35] yesterday and he was saying a week of shadowing the right dentist is better than an MSC [00:56:40] in prosthodontics, like, um, and the number of dentists who will agree to that is interesting too. [00:56:45] You know, loads will. So, you know It’s a good idea to do [00:56:50] that sort of thing. Are you planning if you stay in the UK to stay in London, or [00:56:55] you’re so happy to move around the UK?

May Firoozmand: Yeah. So I’m actually from outside Peterborough. Yeah I know. [00:57:00] So people were asking me, are you thinking of staying in Peterborough? So I’m still very, very sort [00:57:05] of open minded and you know, looking within Cambridgeshire or London or [00:57:10] very, very open when a vacant position is there.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Let’s [00:57:15] come on to our final questions. You’ve [00:57:20] had them before, right? Fantasy dinner party. [00:57:25] Three guests, dead or alive. Who would you have? [00:57:30]

May Firoozmand: So the first person I would invite would be my father. Of course. Oh, [00:57:35] um, I haven’t seen him for a couple of years now, so it would be really, really nice to, you know, [00:57:40] reunite and sort of catch up. You know, how life has been and what’s [00:57:45] been happening and so on. So it’d be really, really nice, just for, you know, one evening. [00:57:50] Um, I think the second person would definitely [00:57:55] be the founder of the Baha’i Faith, Baha’u’llah as well. You know, this this historical [00:58:00] figure that came, uh, and brought this new religion of unity, you [00:58:05] know. And the third person, uh, would be my 16 year [00:58:10] old younger self.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I’ve never heard that before. I like [00:58:15] that. Go on.

May Firoozmand: Because, um, you know, now ten years, fast forward, it [00:58:20] would be nice to, you know, have a look and say we made it even [00:58:25] at the time, at 16 years old, you know, struggling through GCSEs. [00:58:30] Um, if you have a goal and you have a dream, you’ve got to go and chase it, [00:58:35] you know, and to never give up and never take no as a final answer, you [00:58:40] know. So I think that would be quite interesting.

Payman Langroudi: So that that is interesting. That is I’ve never heard that before. But [00:58:45] so on, on that question of, you know, the cliche, what would you say to your 16 [00:58:50] year old self? Would it be you’re going to make it? As in, were you? Were [00:58:55] you worried that you wouldn’t make it? We all we all worry a little, right?

May Firoozmand: Yes yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. But [00:59:00] I’m interested in this question of, you know, I’ve got a friend. He’s quite he’s got he’s got a very strong [00:59:05] faith. Yeah. And when it comes to something really difficult, something [00:59:10] happens to him his. He goes, I know it’s going to be okay. Yeah. Did [00:59:15] you have that at 16? Did you feel like your faith? Whatever would say, I know [00:59:20] it’s going to be okay. Or what would you say to your 16 year old self?

May Firoozmand: I mean, slowly, slowly. I would [00:59:25] just say that. Just keep on going. You know, keep on going. And [00:59:30] even if something happens, even the death of a loved one or there’s a big challenge [00:59:35] or struggling in GCSEs or anything, channel all that negative energy [00:59:40] into a positive way. And even if you want [00:59:45] to achieve this goal, this door is closing. There’s going to be another path. Might be a less, [00:59:50] you know, a path not commonly taken. Yeah, but [00:59:55] just just keep on going. Um, and I would, I would give my 16 [01:00:00] year old self a big smile and a hug and say, we did that within [01:00:05] ten years. Let’s take the next ten years. There will be challenges. We did it. Now [01:00:10] we can do it.

Payman Langroudi: Then we’ll have you back on episode 2030 when [01:00:15] you’re when you’re 36 years old again. Fast forward ten years. [01:00:20] The final question. It’s a deathbed question on [01:00:25] your deathbed, hopefully in many years to come, surrounded [01:00:30] by your loved ones. If you had to give them [01:00:35] three pieces of advice, what would they be?

May Firoozmand: I think my first one would be [01:00:40] to try to walk this path of service and contribute to the betterment [01:00:45] of the world, you know, through kind and goodly deeds. I think [01:00:50] number two, try to protect and shield yourself from these destructive [01:00:55] forces in society. Um, such as the consumption of media, [01:01:00] you know, and and other things. But if you are focussed on trying to fulfil [01:01:05] a specific purpose, just keep on going. You know, don’t let it distract you too much. [01:01:10] I think the third one would be to enjoy the little moments [01:01:15] in life as well, whether that’s having a cup of tea with your mum in the morning, whether [01:01:20] that’s watching a romantic comedy, you know, with the family and eating [01:01:25] popcorn. These are little, little moments, small moments. But they will add up and you [01:01:30] will treasure them, you know, in the future.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. They matter. Those small moments, [01:01:35] definitely.

May Firoozmand: They add.

Payman Langroudi: Up. Definitely true. It’s been a massive pleasure. Massive, [01:01:40] massive pleasure. Thank you so much. Really, really speaking to you really enjoyed that. Really learned a lot from you. Well done and [01:01:45] thank you. Really hope that the future you carry on like this and [01:01:50] obviously succeed as a dentist, having been through that journey. Brilliant. [01:01:55] Thanks for coming in.

May Firoozmand: Thank you very much.

[VOICE]: This [01:02:00] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one [01:02:05] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:02:10] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:02:15] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And [01:02:20] just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to [01:02:25] say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

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