Month: December 2024

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[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders the podcast [00:00:35] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:40] hosts Payman Langroudi [00:00:45] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome [00:00:50] safe Moqadem and Louis al-Masri, two dental students who [00:00:55] are making waves. I want to go through both the Dental student experience [00:01:00] and the waves that you guys are making with the UK Dental [00:01:05] students group. Um, nice to have you. Good.

Lwai Almasri: Thank you. Thank you for having us.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:01:10] an interesting story. You both knew each other before you even got into dental school.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, [00:01:15] more or less. We did. Yeah. And you’re both at King’s.

Payman Langroudi: And did you start out in the same year?

Lwai Almasri: No, [00:01:20] no. Funnily enough. So did you know he’s got a story with that?

Payman Langroudi: Go on. Okay. Go on, go on. [00:01:25]

Saif Mukadam: I’ve got the most random story when it comes to getting into dentistry. So after GCSE. [00:01:30] So I went to a completely different school to him in terms of like secondary schools. And we met like at college, [00:01:35] but after secondary school GCSEs I left school and pursue football. [00:01:40] This is um yeah. So I played full time football as an apprentice for a club in Birmingham, [00:01:45] well, outskirts of Birmingham called Walsall. And, um, yeah. So I got given that apprentice like, [00:01:50] I don’t know, under 13 so very early. Usually get, get it under 16. So I got like three years early. [00:01:55] So I always knew I was going to be going down this football route. So I played my football, did my [00:02:00] two years. I loved it the best time of my life. I mean, as good as dentistry is. And yeah, like, [00:02:05] there was nothing like waking up in the morning, playing football, coming home, going to sleep, eating food, [00:02:10] whatnot, and just doing it again over and over again. Don’t get me wrong, it’s stressful at times. You know, professional [00:02:15] environment and whatnot. But yeah. But unfortunately, you didn’t get my pro contract, so [00:02:20] I was left to the education route. That’s what I did, my GCSEs. Made sure I did well in them. So [00:02:25] I went back, did my A-levels. And this is the college that I actually went to. Um, we didn’t go at the [00:02:30] same time because obviously he’s in his year group, but, um, yeah. So we met [00:02:35] my second year, I think it was. Did you come? He gave a talk about how to get into dental school. [00:02:40] Oh, so.

Lwai Almasri: I was already at dental school at this point, and Saif was at the school that I had, that I [00:02:45] was at before. Yeah. And I was invited back to give a talk on, like, to, like the medic and [00:02:50] dental students on, like applying to medical dental school, like the interview process, some advice at uni [00:02:55] and whatever. And Saif safe was in the in the audience. In the audience.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah. So I reached out to him afterwards and, um, [00:03:00] turns out his little sister actually went to the same time she was.

Lwai Almasri: So she was in the year below him? [00:03:05] Yeah. Whilst he was there. So then.

Saif Mukadam: So I spoke to her a few times and I realised that he was the one that gave the talk. [00:03:10] So I dropped him a message, whatnot, and gave me ample amounts of help getting into dental school and whatnot, all these [00:03:15] random gems of advice and got to speak into him. So then I got in to King’s and, [00:03:20] um, obviously spoke to him and whatnot, and he’s just been like mates. And you were.

Lwai Almasri: Deciding between King’s and Manchester, if I.

Saif Mukadam: Remember. [00:03:25] Yeah, yeah. So so I, um, initially I got rejected from both Liverpool and Brum, so [00:03:30] I was a bit I thought I did quite well in those. Well, not Brum, but Liverpool. I thought I did quite well in so I was a bit disheartened. [00:03:35] But then I got my offer from King’s, which is obviously a top uni. Um, you know, there’s [00:03:40] not really much I need to say about King’s and I didn’t really get a reply from Manchester. [00:03:45] So I was, you know, weighing up whether to wait for Manchester or withdraw [00:03:50] from King’s. So I spoke to him, got a bit of advice and realistically, [00:03:55] the grades were never the issue. So I was always, you know, quite intelligent in terms of [00:04:00] A-levels. I always was top of my work because I was a lot older. I was 18, 19, 20in my [00:04:05] second year of A-levels. I wasn’t really into the, you know, college lifestyle and chilling with [00:04:10] people and whatnot. So I was always just doing my work, doing my own thing, and it was never [00:04:15] really an issue. So I knew I was going to get the grades.

Saif Mukadam: And then so it was just the office and I [00:04:20] wanted to go to Manchester. I support Man City, so there’s a lot of there’s a lot of pros for Manchester [00:04:25] for me. Like, you know, it’s a it’s a quieter city than London. London’s always busy [00:04:30] at all times. Yeah. Especially with Kings as well. Right next to you. London Bridge is the shard [00:04:35] and whatnot. It’s it’s busy at all times, but Manchester is a bit more laid back, I’d say [00:04:40] personally. And, uh, there’s a lot of other pros for me. My sister lives [00:04:45] in, you know, where Stoke is? Yeah. Junction 15. So that’s like a 40 minute drive from from Manchester. [00:04:50] So, you know, if I ever had a nephew or niece, that’s a nice little drive. Can visit them whenever I want. It’s a bit further [00:04:55] for London. It’s doable. Yeah. So there was a lot of pros for Manchester, but in the end, [00:05:00] there was no point in waiting for a reply that might not even come. And [00:05:05] so I decided to withdraw from Manchester firm Kings. And, you know, now I’m here. [00:05:10] The rest.

Lwai Almasri: Is history.

Saif Mukadam: I think it’s yeah, it’s a great decision.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting few things you bring up there. Right. My son’s [00:05:15] going doing his final year A-levels now.

Lwai Almasri: And.

Payman Langroudi: I’m really pushing [00:05:20] him to leave London.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but then you guys didn’t start out in London. But [00:05:25] the London student experience is. I mean, London. Even if you’re a multi-millionaire, you’re in trouble. [00:05:30] Yeah. Let alone it’s so expensive.

Lwai Almasri: It’s so expensive. Expensive. And. [00:05:35]

Payman Langroudi: And you almost feel irrelevant, whoever the hell you are. It’s true. Whereas I was. I was in Cardiff. [00:05:40] Right? And you know, Dental school. The the holidays are much shorter, right? When the other students would [00:05:45] leave, you’d feel it massively like some, some, some restaurants and [00:05:50] things were shut down, like the takeaways, the taxis, everything would be totalled. So the students [00:05:55] were such a big body in that town that, you know, you felt important as [00:06:00] a student there. But I’m interested in your story. First, Saif, regarding [00:06:05] Knockbacks. Yeah. So because you’re kind of a high achiever, right? [00:06:10] You kind of, you know, by getting into that academy in the first place. Yeah. When they told you you’re not going to [00:06:15] be a professional footballer. Yeah. Was that really tough or. No. It was. Does everyone know it’s [00:06:20] so hard to get in that you were half expecting or what.

Saif Mukadam: Were your thoughts? So I think in my year group there [00:06:25] was 14 of us. So they obviously they gave out a certain number of pros every year. So the previous year they gave out this [00:06:30] is my the year before me, they gave out like three pros. Whereas in my year group, out of the [00:06:35] 14 players that were in my year group, they gave out one pro, which is, you know, one out of 14. That’s the [00:06:40] odds are crazy. Like it’s so hard to become a professional footballer. And even then [00:06:45] all the players in my group, the ECR group above me, the year group above them have [00:06:50] all been released by now. In terms of professional level. They no longer play league football, they play non-league, you know, [00:06:55] and the vanarama. Step one, step two, which is again, that’s very good quality, don’t get me wrong. But again, [00:07:00] it’s not professional football. So like I knew I thought I had a good chance. Like [00:07:05] I was one of those ones where I could have got given a pro, but two years down the line would have got released like it would [00:07:10] have been one of those ones where I would have enjoyed the pro lifestyle for 1 or 2 years, played [00:07:15] my football, done what I love because honestly, I would go back to it in a heartbeat. I would have taken those two years [00:07:20] over anything like that. I can’t really put into words how much I enjoyed playing [00:07:25] that football over the time that I was in my apprenticeship. I mean, the stress levels [00:07:30] are ridiculous, but like, there’s something to it. Like playing football day in, day out. What you love, what I’ve grown [00:07:35] up with from a six year old like little, little child playing football in the back garden with my dad to [00:07:40] playing in front of fans in an FA Youth Cup game, scoring a goal, celebrating in front of them [00:07:45] like there’s nothing quite beats it. Like, you know. It.

Payman Langroudi: So the psychological blow was [00:07:50] crazy.

Saif Mukadam: It was mental. So the first, like I’d say week or two. Even the first month, [00:07:55] it was just because obviously I had the chance to play in exit trials and whatnot to [00:08:00] get into another club. But the likelihood of getting into a club after that is slim, [00:08:05] because not only am I from, you know, a League Two club, which is Walsall, you know, the [00:08:10] likelihood of going up from exit trial is very, very slim. Like you never hear of it and [00:08:15] exit trials as well there. You know you can hit and miss, you can play amazing in them or you can play [00:08:20] absolutely horror. And I didn’t play too bad, but everyone’s for themselves in an exit [00:08:25] trial. They want to impress. They want to get to you. They want to get to a club. They’re doing their own thing. Not many [00:08:30] people speak to each other. It’s always like, I want to get there. It’s it’s understandable. You’ve got to be selfish [00:08:35] in football. You’ve got to. If you don’t do that, you’re not going to win. Think about Ronaldo, for example. That has been he’s one of the most [00:08:40] selfish individuals when it comes to football. But it’s admirable because look how far he’s got.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah, [00:08:45] like I don’t need to speak much about Ronaldo. I mean, he’s one of my my my, like, somebody [00:08:50] I. I aspire to be. Yeah. A role model for me back in the day when I was playing. [00:08:55] Even now, his mindset, everything that he does is crazy. I’ll get to that later. But realistically, [00:09:00] it was a blow that first month after the exit trials. I didn’t get anything back from them. [00:09:05] It’s like, what am I doing in my life? And I knew I was going to go back to education, A-levels, whatnot. [00:09:10] Yeah. But like, no more football. It’s going to be education more based, like semi-pro here [00:09:15] and there. It’s not the same. But I know with dentistry as well, it’s more long term, [00:09:20] like football maybe. Yes, I get that two, three years living that lifestyle, playing the football, doing [00:09:25] what I love. But later on down the line, like I get injury done, the manager don’t like [00:09:30] me done. Like, there’s so many things that can happen where you’re just going to fall out of the game very [00:09:35] quickly and you’ll never get back to it. So it was a lot.

Lwai Almasri: Did it prepare you.

Payman Langroudi: Prepare you for [00:09:40] the competitive nature of dental school? Because I don’t know about you, man, but when I got into dental [00:09:45] school. I wasn’t prepared for everyone being, like, really competitive about things. You know, [00:09:50] they. And maybe I should have been.

Lwai Almasri: I mean.

Payman Langroudi: What were your reflections [00:09:55] when you got into dental school?

Lwai Almasri: I think I think the biggest thing getting into dental school that people don’t realise is that dental [00:10:00] school is the smartest people in the country, all in one classroom. [00:10:05] Like what was strange was and I think you noticed it as well, was we [00:10:10] were the smartest not to blow our own horn or whatever, but we were we were the smartest kids in school back in the day. [00:10:15] Like, I mean, to get into King’s, you need an A and two A’s. Your interviews are very good. Personal statement. It’s [00:10:20] like you had to be, um, going from that to to definitely [00:10:25] nowhere near being the top of the class at uni is very is very.

Payman Langroudi: Humbling, [00:10:30] sobering.

Lwai Almasri: It’s very humbling.

Saif Mukadam: Humbling experience.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. And everybody’s because everyone has that shock. Everyone’s [00:10:35] very competitive in the sense of they want to be the best, but they and no one has [00:10:40] that kind of let’s help each other out type thing. Everyone keeps notes or [00:10:45] questions or stuff like this, and they form their little cliques or their little groups, and they share [00:10:50] within that small group. It’s very rare to find sharing with the whole year or [00:10:55] throughout the whole university. Sometimes you’ll find older year students pass down to younger year, but they’re not competing with you, so they don’t [00:11:00] care. But it’s rare to find that within the year you’ll form cliques and they only share in that clique. Yeah, [00:11:05] whereas back at school, I used to study biology in a group of people, and we used to all [00:11:10] help each other. Yeah. And the school used to even instil in us don’t compete with each other, compete with the rest of the country. [00:11:15] So support each other and compete with the rest, because obviously grades are still dependent on how well [00:11:20] everybody does. And grade boundaries fluctuate like that, but there was always a matter of support each other [00:11:25] in the school environment. Compete with the people you don’t know. Then school is very different. [00:11:30] It’s very competitive. It was a big shock.

Payman Langroudi: Were you shocked at Pre-clean, how difficult [00:11:35] the subjects were? Yeah, because I didn’t do biology A-levels. Okay. It was even harder. [00:11:40]

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, I can imagine.

Payman Langroudi: But By chemistry.

Saif Mukadam: I remember telling him. I remember telling him in my first year, I was like, [00:11:45] the jump is crazy. Yeah, I found a level seven bio, like, relatively a breeze. Like it wasn’t [00:11:50] ridiculously difficult. But then we got into uni and like biomed biomedicine. [00:11:55]

Lwai Almasri: Module in first year. Yeah, they split it into two. It’s biomedicine one and then biomedicine [00:12:00] two. That module was unbearable. I mean I’m quite fortunate [00:12:05] it was online for me in my first year. But Saif had it like everything in person in first year.

Saif Mukadam: It [00:12:10] was it was tricky.

Lwai Almasri: Like it’s it’s.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so you didn’t have to do any of the labs.

Lwai Almasri: We’d go [00:12:15] in for occasional histology sessions and I’m sorry. Like histology. Yeah. They [00:12:20] expect me to look down a microscope and see some pink. And. No, this is like muscle. Yeah, I’m [00:12:25] just looking at it.

Saif Mukadam: It’s literally that.

Lwai Almasri: It was, it was. It was unbelievable. Like it was [00:12:30] so difficult. I felt like a term of uni was the whole two [00:12:35] years of A-level. Yeah. Yeah. It’s in terms of content. It was unbelievable. And the thing is, I’m very much [00:12:40] at a level. I had the ring like the binders, and I would have the textbook, [00:12:45] have a pen and paper and make notes. Be in my lesson. Pen and paper and make notes and collect [00:12:50] my notes in this like big ring binder like folder and like section it off with like these pretty [00:12:55] little. I tried doing that at the start of, you know, have photos of me in the library. And within the first [00:13:00] week I’d filled a ring, a ring binder, like the big ones that I didn’t fill [00:13:05] in two years of, of A-levels, didn’t fill in the first week of was filled and [00:13:10] I realised this is not possible. There’s so much content. And what what you don’t realise as well is when you [00:13:15] watch your lectures, the person giving you the lecture is a specialist in that exact field, [00:13:20] so a lot of the time, respectfully, they do waffle a little bit around the topic and they don’t give [00:13:25] you like you’re not hearing exactly what you need to know. So what I [00:13:30] kind of realised towards the end of first year was that you need to look at the learning objectives at the start of [00:13:35] the lecture, and.

Payman Langroudi: Just if you’re that cat, of.

Lwai Almasri: Course. Yeah. And then and then you just pick those bits out [00:13:40] from the lecture, because an hour lecture can be made 20 minutes if they just cut out all the [00:13:45] other stuff that they talk about.

Payman Langroudi: See, there’s a thing I remember the exact thing you were saying. Yeah. Some [00:13:50] dude going on about pharmacology or whatever it was. And my brain at one point [00:13:55] saying, nah, this bit he’s talking about here is not important.

Lwai Almasri: And then it comes up in the.

Payman Langroudi: Random [00:14:00] pick here of saying that this is one bridge too far. I’m not even going to listen [00:14:05] to this bit. And and because I wasn’t the cat who would look up the class before. [00:14:10] Before the thing. And my son was telling me, oh, yeah, there’s this way people study where [00:14:15] they go through everything before the lecture, and then when they’re doing the lecture, it’s [00:14:20] like revision. I was like, really?

Lwai Almasri: No.

Saif Mukadam: That’s a good.

Lwai Almasri: Method for us. [00:14:25] The slight difference is our lectures are all pre-recorded online. So I’ve [00:14:30] never gone in. I’ve never had a person. I’ve never had an in-person lecture.

Saif Mukadam: Which [00:14:35] is crazy.

Lwai Almasri: If if it was different and things were in person, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t like, [00:14:40] I’d struggle. I think a lot more. It’d be nice. And I’ve always said, I wish that we had the option to [00:14:45] go and do lectures in person, because it’d be nice to be able to have to get to ask the tutor afterwards some [00:14:50] questions, because like now, the way it works is you have to send an email and [00:14:55] like sometimes you have to have to figure out who your tutor is because the lecture recording for us now are [00:15:00] all actually built up from Covid. So that tutor that actually that they recorded might actually [00:15:05] not be at King’s anymore. So there’s no one to email. So you have to like then figure out who that tutor is and email [00:15:10] them and ask the question, set up a teams meeting or meet them in person. And so it’s actually really long [00:15:15] when you just have one question that. So it kind of has it like puts you you just don’t want to ask anymore because [00:15:20] you can’t be bothered. So in that sense, finding the learning objectives, they always put it [00:15:25] at the start of the presentation. So you just write them down on your pen and paper or whatever. At the start of the lecture, [00:15:30] I zone out for whatever isn’t based around those 5 or 6 learning objectives, and then I [00:15:35] zone in for when they do come up. I think.

Payman Langroudi: Guys, you know you’ll as you go through [00:15:40] Dental school year, there’ll be some dark days. There really will. Yeah. Um, [00:15:45] and you’ve got to just understand, it’s normal to be massively stressed in dental school. It’s [00:15:50] definitely one of the hardest courses. I mean, my brother did medicine. Nowhere near as [00:15:55] hard as a course, really as a course there. Just watching the whole time, man. They’re not. They’re not doing anything. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: There’s no [00:16:00] patient seeing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. No. First time you drill into the pulp man to try and do canal [00:16:05] treatment. Yeah. The first time you’re like, what the hell am I doing? Yeah. And most people.

Lwai Almasri: Perforate. [00:16:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I perforated, I perforated. Um, and then that can that can [00:16:15] that can actually be like a sliding door. That means your whole career, you don’t go towards endo. [00:16:20] Yeah. Yeah. Which is such a ridiculous thing because Endo is a brilliant career. Yeah. [00:16:25] And on that subject, any thoughts yet about the kind of dentist you want to be? I mean, you [00:16:30] you said both of your parents are dentists.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. So my dad’s a surgeon and [00:16:35] he does max factor oral surgery and implants and stuff like that, but he’s more of an academic now than he is [00:16:40] a practising double qualifier. Uh, I believe so, yes. The doctor. [00:16:45]

Payman Langroudi: As well, I believe.

Lwai Almasri: So. Um, he’s got quite a few qualifications, so I get confused.

Payman Langroudi: Does he work in [00:16:50] hospital?

Lwai Almasri: No. So he runs his own private, um, postgrad education [00:16:55] like department. Oh, really? Um, yeah. In Birmingham. So [00:17:00] he obviously wants me to go down the surgical route, and he’s taken [00:17:05] me to lots of cadaver courses and whatnot. Currently, I haven’t done any of it [00:17:10] at uni. I’ve done a bit of oral surgery so far, but very minimal. I like it, but [00:17:15] I still want to keep my options open because I do like restorative. And like obviously this year [00:17:20] we do a lot of pros and I’m enjoying pros quite significantly. So, you [00:17:25] know, I want to keep my options open. But surgery is a possibility.

Payman Langroudi: Have you been and watched him [00:17:30] ever?

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, yeah I’ve watched I’ve watched a lot of the stuff that he’s done, and he’s even showed me things like, [00:17:35] um, oh, I forgot what the procedure is called. Now it’s you break the you [00:17:40] break the the mandible or the for. Yeah. And you and you retract it back. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:17:45] that’s a big operation. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: So you showed me one of those and it was, it was very interesting. But, [00:17:50] um, you know, I still want to weigh my options. I don’t want to commit to something this early on. [00:17:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s a bit early. Yeah. Your parents weren’t in dentistry?

Lwai Almasri: Not at.

Saif Mukadam: All. My my [00:18:00] parents didn’t go to uni. Didn’t go to school. They’re just. They’re printers. They own a printing company. [00:18:05] So my granddad started it 40, 45 odd years back. [00:18:10] Really? My dad’s taking it over. It’s just a family business. So. Yeah, they they, um, [00:18:15] they I never really had any pressure to go into dentistry at all. Um, more. [00:18:20] So I was always like, science based in school. I loved the chemistry, biology. I did like physics, [00:18:25] I hated physics. It’s disgusting. Subject matter, I hate it, I like physics, you like it? Yeah, it’s quite [00:18:30] bizarre. And I don’t really see many people that like physics.

Lwai Almasri: But did you do maths? Yeah.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: It makes [00:18:35] sense. Yeah. I didn’t like maths or physics. Yeah. Do maths. No.

Payman Langroudi: So do three sciences. [00:18:40]

Lwai Almasri: No.

Payman Langroudi: So I didn’t do physics either.

Lwai Almasri: I actually didn’t want to go into dentistry initially anyway. Oh. [00:18:45] I did economics as my third A-level. Oh, yeah. So completely different. And I actually wanted [00:18:50] to go into finance and economics at uni.

Payman Langroudi: Be different to your parents? Very different. Your mum a dentist [00:18:55] too?

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. But my mum, my mum qualified whilst I was doing my GCSEs and [00:19:00] my A-levels she went to Manchester. Wow. So she did it very late. She dropped out. My parents married. They were young. [00:19:05] Um, you know, she spent her majority of the time raising me and my two sisters. [00:19:10] And then eventually, when my older sister went to uni and my younger sister, kind of like we [00:19:15] all grew up, essentially, she decided to go back to uni and do what she did. She did dietetics first and [00:19:20] then she did dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: What a story. Love that.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. So to be fair, that was really inspiring. And, um, [00:19:25] like seeing her do that whilst I was doing because she also then because they came from Syria. So she [00:19:30] had to do she had to go to college to do GCSEs. She had to do A-levels as an adult. Yeah. And [00:19:35] with.

Payman Langroudi: Kids. Oh yeah.

Lwai Almasri: And then go to. And the thing is when she went to Manchester she commuted. So she still had [00:19:40] a family. I was doing my GCSEs, so she was really like on top of me for studying and stuff [00:19:45] and commuting every day back and forth to Manchester.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:19:50] how come neither of you have got a Midlands accent?

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, thankfully I never got I never I [00:19:55] never had that Birmingham accent.

Saif Mukadam: So I grew up in Aston. You know Aston is. But [00:20:00] that was only for like five years. So I moved back to Moseley. But we don’t really have like a really [00:20:05] strong Birmingham accent around those areas. It’s more like Dudley.

Payman Langroudi: Oh those.

Saif Mukadam: Areas. [00:20:10] There’s like certain areas which have certain areas.

Lwai Almasri: That will have a really thick and strong accent. [00:20:15] Thankfully we do.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t know Depeche Palmer, do you?

Lwai Almasri: No. No.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:20:20] he’s a he’s we do a course called Mini Smile Maker. It’s a it’s a composite course. Okay. [00:20:25] He’s a Birmingham guy but you know from Kenya.

Saif Mukadam: And yeah. See, my parents are from [00:20:30] Kenya.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but he’s got a proper Birmingham accent. Really?

Lwai Almasri: It’s gonna be hard to understand sometimes. [00:20:35]

Payman Langroudi: Especially when I get it. It’s not that bad. It’s not that bad? No. A lot of.

Saif Mukadam: People love to make [00:20:40] fun of it, though. Like, I don’t even, like. You can’t even tell that accent. But at the moment I say I’m from Birmingham. [00:20:45] Oh, yeah. You got Birmingham. No, I don’t I don’t have a booming voice. No, I know you.

Lwai Almasri: Can put it on, but you don’t have it. [00:20:50] No I.

Saif Mukadam: Don’t. I can’t even put it on. I can’t even do accents. But I don’t know why they say that. I’ve got [00:20:55] a Birmingham accent.

Lwai Almasri: I don’t. No you don’t. I know it.

Payman Langroudi: Might be one word here or there.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah, some. Sometimes [00:21:00] it can come out, but when they say, oh yeah, I could tell you. No you couldn’t. I know it’s officially.

Lwai Almasri: Confirmed [00:21:05] that you don’t have the accent. Yeah. Tell me about.

Payman Langroudi: Kings. Right when you got there. Outside of this [00:21:10] thing, we were just saying about the competitive nature of it. But London. Yeah. I mean, of course [00:21:15] you’d been to London, but living in London.

Saif Mukadam: Even before.

Lwai Almasri: Like.

Saif Mukadam: Going to. I applied [00:21:20] to Kings purely for the, for the name. Yeah, yeah. If I got it to Manchester I’d be like, yeah, [00:21:25] I rejected Kings. I’m so cool. Obviously that was the idea. That was a very young girl. Like. Long time ago. Younger [00:21:30] me. Yeah. But, um. Kings is great, man. Genuinely. It’s lots of people. It’s always something [00:21:35] happening. But again, there’s obviously the opposite side where you don’t feel like [00:21:40] you’re someone in London. Yeah. Whereas like quite a, like city. You’d enjoyed it more because you’re [00:21:45] like someone there. But no, I think it’s amazing. Genuinely. Initially I hated it because, [00:21:50] you know, Birmingham, I have my own car. I can drive wherever I want, like I don’t have to get on a [00:21:55] tube. It stinks. It smells like London in general is just, oh, it’s so busy. But [00:22:00] there’s something to it where like, it’s it’s nice, like I’m liking it. But then [00:22:05] the accommodation that I was at was not the best.

Payman Langroudi: But which one was it?

Saif Mukadam: Gds [00:22:10] great Dover Street, Dover Street, probably familiar with it. It’s quite.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve heard the name.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: That was the one I was at [00:22:15] as well.

Saif Mukadam: It’s, um it’s got a wet room. It’s en suite. So you got everything you need?

Payman Langroudi: En suite?

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, [00:22:20] it’s an en suite, but it’s. It’s a triangular wet room.

Saif Mukadam: Just about. Just about.

Lwai Almasri: It’s [00:22:25] like it’s it’s practice that you have to take your toilet roll out of the bathroom when you have a shower because it will [00:22:30] come out. So like, it will, it will get it gets wet.

Saif Mukadam: It’s not even like.

Lwai Almasri: You know, the [00:22:35] only thing that I have against GDS is that I loved my time there and it was amazing. [00:22:40] But the biggest issue that I have is why am I paying £200 a week or [00:22:45] more than that.

Saif Mukadam: To 215.

Lwai Almasri: Just because my postcode is SW1? Yeah, and that the shard [00:22:50] is right next door. Because in Birmingham that’s like 120. Like, yeah I [00:22:55] have, I have someone in Sheffield that pays maybe £400 a month for his rent. And it was a nice like [00:23:00] couple bedroom flat with everyone with their own bathroom, big spacious place. [00:23:05] But just because we’re in London for over £200 a week.

Saif Mukadam: You get the bare minimum. [00:23:10]

Lwai Almasri: Even that it’s a it’s a little rectangular room with not even a single bed. It’s it’s one of those three quarter day [00:23:15] beds that, like, your legs will dangle off the end. It’s. And I’m not even a tall person. And my [00:23:20] legs were dangling.

Payman Langroudi: I just stay there one year and then move into.

Lwai Almasri: There one year and then you kind of you can stay there more. [00:23:25] But because it’s very competitive, they offer priority to obviously first year students. So sometimes it’s full [00:23:30] and you have to sort yourself out.

Payman Langroudi: But how much do you pay in a house or in a flat.

Lwai Almasri: Same similar [00:23:35] similar 250 in the area. Yeah. You can find places. Obviously you can go up much further. Obviously. [00:23:40] You know London. Like if you if you have the money to you’ll go up a lot further. Yeah. If not you can find [00:23:45] within the same realms. But it’s very.

Payman Langroudi: You stay in the same.

Lwai Almasri: Area. A lot of people do. I live in Battersea currently, so I moved [00:23:50] out a bit further to get a bit quieter of an area. Um, yeah. I live safe [00:23:55] lives, literally next door to the accommodation.

Payman Langroudi: But are you living with other Dental students?

Lwai Almasri: No. Yeah. [00:24:00] Currently I live with my older sister because she’s finishing off medicine at King’s. Okay, [00:24:05] so. But you are with me.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah. My mate, second year friend that I have. [00:24:10] Yeah. It’s nice, homey. It’s cool.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get on to UK dental students.

Lwai Almasri: Yes. [00:24:15]

Payman Langroudi: Tell me, how did it start? What is it? Let’s start with. What is it?

Lwai Almasri: Uk [00:24:20] dental students is. It’s a good question, but what it is, is currently [00:24:25] it’s the largest network of Dental students in the UK. It’s [00:24:30] simply a community for Dental students run by Dental students [00:24:35] where we can help support each other, network, [00:24:40] help each other grow, do courses not even just that other [00:24:45] like something that we’ve found really nice is that when we created it, we had a lot of students message us saying, [00:24:50] I’m doing this kind of research and would love for other people to kind of get involved and help [00:24:55] out. Do you mind if we pop it in the chat and see if other people are interested? That’s what we that that was our main [00:25:00] kind of thing that we wanted to happen from it. And we were we were really happy when [00:25:05] people started messaging because essentially people saw what we wanted to like, saw the vision essentially, which [00:25:10] was great. People pop in like charity things that they do. It’s really great. It’s [00:25:15] just a place basically where people.

Saif Mukadam: Opportunities for other students exactly across the country, which [00:25:20] is, you know, you don’t really find that anywhere.

Payman Langroudi: But so explain to me, I mean, you [00:25:25] kind of told me before about how quickly it grew. Yeah. But explain to me, okay. You [00:25:30] have this idea. Mhm. You tell the six people around you. Yeah. [00:25:35]

Lwai Almasri: Then it kind of started with so I can’t, [00:25:40] I just put an invite link in the, in the WhatsApp group chats that kind of exist already [00:25:45] of the university. Yeah. So we did a.

Saif Mukadam: Long it was oh this.

Lwai Almasri: Was this [00:25:50] was the hardest part actually the hardest part of doing it was getting to the point [00:25:55] where we were like, okay, now let’s leave it and let it just organically grow, which is where we are [00:26:00] now, where we know we haven’t got all the Dental students in the UK, but we’ve let it just naturally grow now [00:26:05] itself. Um, and not pushed. But essentially what we did was we created a Google [00:26:10] Doc spreadsheet, um, like on Google Drive and listed all the universities [00:26:15] and like all the, all the years. Yeah. And then said, okay, we’ll [00:26:20] tick off each one. Once we’ve sent an invite link into each university’s specific [00:26:25] year group chat. Similar to how Kings have a BDS 1 to 5 group chat for [00:26:30] each year group for Kings, every other university has the same thing, so we basically worked [00:26:35] our way into joining each one each year, group each university and dropped a message saying, [00:26:40] guys, this is a group chat for this purpose, whatever. But here’s an invite link to join now.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:26:45] because you knew other then other students.

Lwai Almasri: Linkedin, Instagram. So like you ask other [00:26:50] dentists from other unis if they can add you in or like if I was, I was already in all five for [00:26:55] the King’s group chats. Um, and then, you know, like people were really helpful. [00:27:00] So like, people from Bdsa were like, okay, we’ll help you guys out and add you into these group chats, um, [00:27:05] and whatnot. So I remember, um, someone made me a community admin on the Birmingham [00:27:10] Sports Day group chat so that I could just send it in one quick message, and it went to everybody. So [00:27:15] yeah, it was just it was basically it.

Payman Langroudi: Was a massive growth. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: It just that’s why it really accelerated really quickly [00:27:20] was because we we’ve got a.

Saif Mukadam: Lot of access to a lot of Dental students across the country initially from like [00:27:25] Bdsa sports days, whatnot.

Lwai Almasri: The beautiful thing about it was that everyone was willing to help. Yeah, everybody. [00:27:30] And that’s what the main premise of the group chat is anyway, is to help each other. So it was really cool to see that the [00:27:35] students, when they saw it started to like build up. They just, you know, everybody started [00:27:40] sharing it. No one no one really keeps anything like that, like a group chat link. So everyone was just sharing. [00:27:45] We put it on Instagram. Um, dentistry. Co.uk were really nice to, to also put it out on [00:27:50] um on their Instagram. So yeah, it kind of just grew that way. And then now once the thing is what [00:27:55] was crazy. Our kind of like the moment when we realised, okay, it’s going really well was when we hit a [00:28:00] thousand people. That’s when we, when we called each other and we were like, this is crazy. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:28:05] many students are there? Do you know?

Lwai Almasri: Around 1500.

Saif Mukadam: Something like that.

Payman Langroudi: You’re kidding.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, around 1500 [00:28:10] students. 1600.

Payman Langroudi: 2000 of them?

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. 15, 1600 students in the group [00:28:15] chat, which is really cool and it grows every day.

Payman Langroudi: Although you don’t know they’re all students, do you?

Lwai Almasri: That’s [00:28:20] the thing. So we can’t we?

Payman Langroudi: I just joined.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, we could have. We could have [00:28:25] done something where it’s. They have to we have to approve everything joining [00:28:30] and but that’s. But yeah. And also we don’t want to. Yeah. And also we don’t want to deter like [00:28:35] because the thing is, is I think it’s a bit sad if people that aren’t anything [00:28:40] in dentistry joining this group chat. Do you get what I mean? Like why the hell are you going to join a group chat that you’re not going [00:28:45] to understand anything in there that brings you no benefit? So there’s that. But also, we don’t [00:28:50] want to deter students that are applying for dentistry from joining because at the same time, a lot of [00:28:55] the time they can get help as well. Like, we have no qualms with people dropping a message saying or [00:29:00] um, anybody have any advice for this application or whatever, but help out. [00:29:05] Like we’re very happy with that. So we don’t we don’t really mind. So yeah, whilst we, we don’t know 100% [00:29:10] how many dental students there are, we know that majority of them are. We [00:29:15] did a poll earlier in the chat as well about which universities people were from, so that we could, for our spreadsheet [00:29:20] purposes, obviously, like figure out where we need to focus our energy and whatnot into which [00:29:25] universities we needed help from. And yeah, and even when we did that poll, students reached out to us [00:29:30] saying, oh, I’ve noticed you don’t have this many people from this university. Do you want some help in like making [00:29:35] sure that it gets spread out and shared and stuff like that? So it’s actually it was really, really cool stuff. But yeah. [00:29:40]

Payman Langroudi: So then I guess the danger of it is, like you were saying before [00:29:45] to me, spamming. Spamming. Yeah. Have you had any of that.

Saif Mukadam: Occasion time to time. But occasionally [00:29:50] on it it gets deleted. They go.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, I mean.

Saif Mukadam: Spam, stop it. Yeah. [00:29:55] To stop spam.

Lwai Almasri: In the sense of like product marketing. [00:30:00] We’re quite honest in the sense of we we delete it quite quickly, especially if it’s, um, something [00:30:05] that’s completely irrelevant that some people will drop in and like random Chinese accounts, will join and send [00:30:10] a message saying, need help with your assignment, writing and whatnot. We delete those very quickly because [00:30:15] our notifications are. Even if I’m on Do Not Disturb, I get notifications for the chat, so I see it. Um, and [00:30:20] saves really good at it. Um, but but um, in terms of spam, [00:30:25] where, where people just end up just day to day chit chat. It happens [00:30:30] occasionally, but it doesn’t really happen as much as we were worried that it would, because everybody has their their uni year [00:30:35] chats, that they kind of do that in any way. So it doesn’t really happen in this chat, which actually is quite helpful. [00:30:40] It’s nice because otherwise you’d have a chat with 1600 people just popping off on your phone [00:30:45] all the time. It’d be unbearable.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but look, it’s an interesting thing. Like let’s say, let’s say [00:30:50] for the sake of the argument, I actually do want enlightened student representatives. Yeah I [00:30:55] do. Yeah. I could go straight on there and say, hey, I’m looking for an enlightened student representative. So here are the benefits [00:31:00] of it. Of course you could. It would be much better, though, if I contacted you first and said, hey, I’m thinking [00:31:05] of doing this, but what if I didn’t know who you are? Yeah, yeah. So so so then that’s where it’s. It’s [00:31:10] a bit weird. I mean.

Lwai Almasri: We’ve put it in the in the bio of the like of who you are. Yeah. The description of the group chat [00:31:15] and whatnot. Um, I mean, and we’re trying to do as much to [00:31:20] we’re not trying to specifically get people to know who we are as, as low and safe, but [00:31:25] more so. Okay, we’re running this group chat. Just come and reach out because [00:31:30] you can see who the admins are and the admins are there, and it’s clear. So it’s a it’s a bit [00:31:35] obvious to reach out to one of us, and we put it in the group chat to reach out, drop us a message [00:31:40] and, you know, and give.

Payman Langroudi: Me an example of like something that goes down on there that’s super like valuable for someone [00:31:45] who’s on it. What sort of stuff?

Lwai Almasri: The endo, the endo research thing that [00:31:50] the student from Queen Mary’s messaged us.

Saif Mukadam: There’s quite a few things. Yeah. So a lot of people have [00:31:55] like this opportunity and they’re like, I want to put this on the group chat for other students to get involved in. [00:32:00] They’ll drop it in and like I think charity stuff as well. So I have I’m involved in a charity. I [00:32:05] put a message in for the charity, um, opportunity on the group chat and we’ll get people signing up [00:32:10] that you wouldn’t have if you didn’t have this group chat. So there’s positives there. [00:32:15]

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, I mean, we had a student that messaged both me and Saif and she was from Queen Mary’s and she was talking about [00:32:20] how she’s doing this research project, this Indo research project, but she needs support [00:32:25] from other students, from other universities to collate data and whatnot. Without [00:32:30] this group chat, she actually wouldn’t have been able to do it unless she reached out. To like individually would have been a [00:32:35] lot harder. She put it in the chat. She messaged us saying, do you mind if I put this in? And I said, of course, go ahead. This [00:32:40] is what the group chats for, like, please be my guest. She dropped it in the chat and I mean, I don’t know what [00:32:45] happened. I didn’t follow up, but she got reactions to the message, so I assume that people would have reached out. [00:32:50] And, you know, something like that is exactly what we want from it. And, you know, I mean, other than that, [00:32:55] we are planning on running hands on courses. I mean, I’ve been talking with Gin and Kish, [00:33:00] um, for quite a while as well about, you know, getting some hands on courses for students and, [00:33:05] you know, with sponsors and stuff like that.

Lwai Almasri: We’re trying our best to make it free. I mean, [00:33:10] you’d be surprised to know that if you want to host a hands on course at King’s, you. [00:33:15] If the Dental Society at King’s wanted to host a hands on course using the Phantom head lab or whatever, they [00:33:20] actually charge the society even though it’s outside of ours. You’re not taking away from, like [00:33:25] any student, clinical time or whatever. They they’ll charge you and it’s quite expensive. I forgot how much the figures [00:33:30] actually were, but a lot of sponsors can’t even don’t pay that much to cover it. So [00:33:35] you don’t get hands on courses that often. And if you do, they’re either for graduated dentists [00:33:40] and you won’t understand anything going on or they’re really expensive. So [00:33:45] like, there’s never been a win win for for students in that sense. They [00:33:50] always either tag along to things that they don’t really understand to to actual graduated dentist events, [00:33:55] or they don’t go because they can’t afford to do it, which is a very valid thing because, [00:34:00] you know, like students.

Payman Langroudi: Expenses go to graduate dentist events. [00:34:05] Yeah for.

Lwai Almasri: Sure. Of course I.

Payman Langroudi: Agree. You’ll understand. You’ll understand. There’s no difference. It’s dentistry. [00:34:10] Right? Yeah, but understand.

Lwai Almasri: But like, a second year might not understand something about crown preps. Of course. [00:34:15]

Payman Langroudi: Of course, of course. But, but but my my advice is generally do go. Yeah generally do go. And we on our on [00:34:20] our hands on we have students all the time uh, sitting in the back and sometimes, you know, [00:34:25] there’s cancellations and they actually do the hands on composite course as well. Oh, nice. Yeah. And I [00:34:30] watched those kids come through, you know, and and, you know, some of them go that direction. It’s it’s [00:34:35] cool. It’s cool. Um, and now there’s an event. There’s an actual event in the in [00:34:40] process with FMC, right?

Lwai Almasri: Yes, yes.

Payman Langroudi: Go on. How did how did that happen? Go for it.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah. [00:34:45] So it is essentially just building on the top 50 dentists [00:34:50] likes event that they have yearly anyway. But now we’re adding [00:34:55] the top 50 dental students with it. And as we said previously, it’s like the top 50 of today or [00:35:00] top 50 of tomorrow. It’s punchy, it’s catchy. And then we’re making it with a conference [00:35:05] as well as a party afterwards, a water and whatnot, which is, you know, it’s big, like [00:35:10] you get a day out of it for students, you have sponsors, you’ll [00:35:15] have whatnot. And I think it’s a great opportunity, something that you can build on for King [00:35:20] from BSA and whatnot. And yeah, I don’t see anything any harm [00:35:25] in it and something positive for students. I’m really excited for [00:35:30] it as well.

Lwai Almasri: I mean, the cool thing, your competition.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah, exactly.

Lwai Almasri: Students, I think the cool thing about it is [00:35:35] really, is that the top 50 dentists that currently that I think it’s [00:35:40] essentially just a drink ceremony and you get your plaques and you just like you get some photos [00:35:45] and that’s all it was really. It was quite small and it was just the top 50 dentists that would actually turn up. We [00:35:50] kind of wanted to well, we wanted to give recognition to students. I mean, saves on the dental [00:35:55] society at King’s does a lot of extra extracurricular stuff. I mean, I’ve been doing since first year, [00:36:00] a lot of extracurricular stuff was on the dental society for a period of time. Yeah, you do all of this extracurricular [00:36:05] stuff and it’s not easy. And it takes up a lot of your time, especially for such a, as [00:36:10] we said earlier, a heavy degree. There’s so much lectures and so much content. It does [00:36:15] take up a lot of your time to do this stuff. And uni doesn’t really award you [00:36:20] or give you much recognition for it. There are occasional awards within the uni and whatnot, but [00:36:25] on a wider scale, not so much. So what we wanted to do was give [00:36:30] recognition for those that really go above and beyond and kind of do [00:36:35] a lot. And so the premise of it is and it’s it’s great to give some competition because doing [00:36:40] this will cause will give incentive to the people that weren’t doing it, [00:36:45] also to do it. And it’s going to benefit their career if they do. So it’s kind of it has that benefit to it as well. [00:36:50]

Payman Langroudi: Are you aware of the controversy around the top 50?

Lwai Almasri: 100%. Are you? Yeah. We’ve [00:36:55] we’ve we’ve we’ve heard it all since we announced it. We’ve we’ve had lots of [00:37:00] Backlash comments. We’ve spoken to too many professionals. [00:37:05] I mean, even like our own mentors that like we both respect highly. Prof. Banerjee as [00:37:10] an example, I have. Yeah.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah. On my tutorials every Thursday. Guys. So knowledgeable [00:37:15] man.

Payman Langroudi: I love him.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah, he loves it.

Payman Langroudi: Although, although I can’t believe that Avi is a really [00:37:20] strict teacher.

Saif Mukadam: Nice. So. No.

Payman Langroudi: Because his students told me he’s really strict. [00:37:25] He’s so.

Saif Mukadam: Strict.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you just can’t.

Lwai Almasri: Believe he’s strict. He wants.

Saif Mukadam: He wants the best out of us. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: So he’s he’s [00:37:30] strict, but he’s. I don’t know how to explain it. If if you can see where he’s coming from. The thing [00:37:35] is, a lot of people are scared of Prof. Banerjee because. Because I just can’t. Yeah. So, [00:37:40] so so.

Saif Mukadam: He’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Most unscary character I know.

Lwai Almasri: So, so for us, from from [00:37:45] our first initial point of meeting, you got to remember for us, everyone tells you about Picard’s and it’s the Bible [00:37:50] at King’s almost for restorative dentistry. It’s the Bible. Yeah. So like so like for us, it’s [00:37:55] you’re going to you’re you’re sat in a room especially our tutorials are quite small circle. [00:38:00] You’re in a very small room with this seasoned veteran of dentistry. No, no.

Payman Langroudi: He told me he’s strict [00:38:05] on purpose.

Saif Mukadam: He is so, so strict.

Lwai Almasri: But if you kind of see where he’s coming from, you [00:38:10] kind of break past that strictness. Yeah. And he’s he’s very he’s a lovely, lovely [00:38:15] guy. I shouldn’t be.

Payman Langroudi: Telling you this. If you know.

Saif Mukadam: Yourself, if you know your stuff like in your in the tutorials that I have with him. Yeah, [00:38:20] he loves it. Honestly. He loves it. If you ask him questions and you actually engage with him and engage with [00:38:25] the content, you can tell like you’re actually interested in what we’re doing. He loves it.

Lwai Almasri: Like [00:38:30] you have to turn up prepared to manage these tutorials. You know, I.

Payman Langroudi: Had him on this.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And but I [00:38:35] also had Ken Finlayson on this. Okay. Whose idea was the top 50? Yeah. Yeah. [00:38:40] And so back to the controversy. I mean, I mean, are you stuck on the [00:38:45] top 50 idea or not really.

Lwai Almasri: It’s not that. The thing is, with the controversy, and Prof. Banerjee warned us of this [00:38:50] and spoke to us about it. I mean, we met with him and we and we took his advice and whatnot, and even my dad, [00:38:55] because my dad’s more of an academic than he is, um, something like this. And he’s not been always [00:39:00] the biggest fan of top 50 awards and whatnot. But the point of what we’re trying to do here is, and [00:39:05] what we’ve explained to people, it’s not that we’re just giving you an award and saying here, this is an [00:39:10] accolade and whatever. Like where what we’re trying to do is we’re trying to help [00:39:15] people grow. And the way that we’re doing it is that we’re giving some [00:39:20] sort of incentive to, to, to, to create creativity within students [00:39:25] because our market and that’s why we specifically said we want to work on the judging criteria, [00:39:30] because as students, we know what’s within the realm of possibility, and we know what students want and [00:39:35] what students should be doing and the things that will benefit students. And that’s what we want to tailor the judging criteria and what we [00:39:40] have tailored the judging criteria to. And in that sense, because of that, students, [00:39:45] when they make their application or start working towards that application, they’re obviously going to be doing stuff [00:39:50] that’s then beneficial to them. So regardless of winning or not, because winning at the end of [00:39:55] the day is cool, But realistically, like we said earlier, 15 or 1600 people in [00:40:00] a group chat and 50 winning. There’s obviously those top 50 are [00:40:05] going to be something that really stood out, like an application that really stood out and was very creative and as they [00:40:10] should be rewarded for it respectfully. And then the rest of the people, it’s not [00:40:15] like they haven’t gained something from doing it. They’ve gained. They’ll be given feedback. They’ll they’ll [00:40:20] have gained. They’ll have done hands on courses.

Payman Langroudi: We all get the upside of it. Yeah.

Saif Mukadam: The downside, the controversy.

Lwai Almasri: The [00:40:25] controversy is, is we’re aware that we’re going to get backlash for it. And I’ll be honest, I don’t really care because you’re [00:40:30] going to get backlash for doing anything. There’s always going to be people that do backlash.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the backlash, the [00:40:35] that it used to be the magazine. Yeah. Um, where they used to put out the top 50. [00:40:40] Now it’s a post on social media. Yeah. That post is the busiest post. It’s [00:40:45] the most engaged post that FMC put out. Yeah. Like, people are definitely interested in that [00:40:50] list. Yeah. Um, but the, you know, the downside [00:40:55] of it. What people say. Yeah. What? Can you tell me what you think the downside is.

Saif Mukadam: Why do they pick [00:41:00] me? Why do they pick? Why do they pick him over me? Those kind of vibes, isn’t it? But it’s like it’s [00:41:05] competition. But like, when people lose, they’re like, why didn’t I win? Why didn’t [00:41:10] I? But, like, what do they do to win? I didn’t do, like, you know, those kind of vibes. Yeah, but [00:41:15] I just don’t think that I will happen with the students. Yeah. Version. But [00:41:20] yeah, the thing is, every year you can get a chance to apply every year. I mean.

Lwai Almasri: Pdsa [00:41:25] and like the Bacd, for example, they do the.

Saif Mukadam: Essay.

Lwai Almasri: Competition. Yeah. Essay [00:41:30] competition. It’s almost the same really. Because like, why did this person get a higher mark than I did, for [00:41:35] example? So people are always going to say why when it comes to awards. Why did this [00:41:40] criteria. Yeah, I mean all we have to say is that we’re going to we’ll be publishing the judging criteria to the [00:41:45] students, the publish the judging criteria. Sorry. To the students. It’s going to be known. So they’ll [00:41:50] know what what’s what to expect and what to do. And the good thing is, is that we plan on running courses [00:41:55] throughout the year that people can go to in order to strengthen their [00:42:00] application. So it’s not and it’s equal opportunity, because at that point, yes, we’re not going to be able to [00:42:05] have 1600 people on a hands on course, but we will obviously be on a first come, first serve basis. [00:42:10] But it will be something that, you know, everybody has an equal opportunity [00:42:15] to to do this, this and that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but what if what if yeah, I’m a student in [00:42:20] Aberdeen somewhere or whatever. Is there a Dental school in Aberdeen? Yes there is. Yeah. Um, [00:42:25] and I, I feed the hungry at the weekend and I’m working on [00:42:30] a research project with my tutor, and I’m top of my class, [00:42:35] and I don’t even enter this. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: So then that’s.

Payman Langroudi: That’s your choice. No, no, I know, I know, [00:42:40] I know, of course I understand that I’m not going to win if I don’t enter. Right. But but then [00:42:45] the list comes out. Top. Top 50 students in the UK. This. This [00:42:50] cat, this this girl I’m talking about. Yeah. Might be better than the number one person. [00:42:55] And yet he gets no recognition at all because. Because she didn’t make an entry. [00:43:00] Yeah. Now, what you’ll find is in the awards, you know. Oh, private dentistry awards. I’m [00:43:05] going on Friday to private dentistry awards. Yeah. Sometimes the entry process [00:43:10] becoming good at putting an entry in. And some people I know, [00:43:15] you guys may not have come across this yet, but some people will hire a PR company to [00:43:20] to sort out their whole entry. Yeah. So I know one guy who paid £15,000 [00:43:25] for his entry. Yeah. This back in the day when? When? Uh, it used [00:43:30] to be a very big thing to win it. Yeah. And he said, I want to win it. Yeah. And so my [00:43:35] general point is that that that those are the kind of problems that come up. Yeah.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah. We’re [00:43:40] we’re going to limit those kind of entries as well. Like we’re not going to have. Well you’ll never.

Payman Langroudi: Know. You’ll never know.

Lwai Almasri: We’ll never know. [00:43:45] No. But you’ll never know.

Payman Langroudi: Because if if you’ve got these, these criteria and someone’s only fulfilling [00:43:50] these criteria and doing it to a very high standard on these criteria. Yeah. And [00:43:55] and you know, by the way, being a number six top student in the country, [00:44:00] we’re not.

Lwai Almasri: Going to rank. We’re not ranking them. You will be known as a top 50 being in the [00:44:05] top 50.

Payman Langroudi: It’s good for your career. Yeah. It’s good for your career. If I was some principle, you know, [00:44:10] the hiring, the first job. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, it’s good for your career. And so you set up, like, a competition [00:44:15] that ends up being good for your career. And then. And then, by the way, I’m cool with it, but, [00:44:20] but, but this is the kind of thing that will come up.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. But but but it’s going to come regardless I think people. [00:44:25]

Payman Langroudi: Well it’s not regardless if you don’t have it like that. Yeah. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: But like the thing [00:44:30] is, is.

Saif Mukadam: There will be people that.

Lwai Almasri: Will no matter what you do, there’s always going to be someone that that. And I’m [00:44:35] sure you, you might have got backlash maybe for starting up a podcast even back when you started it up. [00:44:40] So do you get what I mean? Like there’s always no matter. A lot of times there’s people that will hate to see other [00:44:45] people succeed.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t think it’s just that, though, dude. Yeah, I get that. I get that, but [00:44:50] that’s I think that’s a dismissive way of thinking about it. Yeah. I [00:44:55] do understand what you’re saying. Yeah. Some sort of jealousy. Yeah. There is that jealousy [00:45:00] thing exists. But often I feel like we put stuff down to [00:45:05] that where there’s other things involved. Yeah. So people will say, oh, I [00:45:10] don’t like so-and-so showing pictures of his Ferrari. Yeah, yeah. And then a bunch of people were like, oh, they’re [00:45:15] just jealous. Yeah. Okay. Jealousy is one aspect of that. Yeah. But [00:45:20] it’s important to try and understand the other aspect of what’s what is the actual [00:45:25] true good reason why your dad has distaste with [00:45:30] with this? Yeah. What is that? Pin that down. Yeah. Yeah. Then. Okay. Address it so I [00:45:35] don’t care about it. Or this is how. This is how I’m addressing it. Yeah. But do understand that, you know, [00:45:40] people have feelings for reasons it’s not. It’s not just that every big move will make. [00:45:45] Yeah. Of course. You know waves.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. I mean, I feel like that’s why that was our [00:45:50] main premise, actually, of meeting with Prof. Banerjee. Because, like, what did that say?

Payman Langroudi: I’m sure he hated [00:45:55] the idea.

Lwai Almasri: Not not that he actually wasn’t. He wasn’t. I wouldn’t say a hater. I mean, he’s I never had the privilege [00:46:00] of actually being tutored by Prof. Banerjee in my second year, but.

Saif Mukadam: I’ve got him literally tomorrow a minute. [00:46:05] So so so say hi.

Payman Langroudi: Say hi.

Saif Mukadam: Once I finish here, I will be going home to, [00:46:10] like.

Lwai Almasri: Prepare for it. Yeah. So I don’t want to.

Saif Mukadam: Be found out.

Lwai Almasri: So I mean, I mean, [00:46:15] with Prof. Banerjee, he was just telling us literally exactly what you said about, you know, the backlash [00:46:20] behind it and the fact that, I mean, it doesn’t actually mean anything. It’s not something of of like [00:46:25] of substance. And then he said that the problems that you’re going to have is that students are going to want things given [00:46:30] to them in black and white. From his experience of marking, being a tutor, being a tutor [00:46:35] and whatnot. And, you know, he was helping us sort of build and give us advice on what [00:46:40] we had as a potential judging list and a judging panel.

Payman Langroudi: Um, tell me about that. Tell me about that. [00:46:45] So who made the judging criteria and who are the judges?

Lwai Almasri: So we made the. Judging criteria. You [00:46:50] two. Just you two. I mean we weren’t we weren’t we we [00:46:55] had.

Saif Mukadam: Our bias here and.

Lwai Almasri: There. We obviously had our advice, but we we we we we worked [00:47:00] on the judging criteria and kind of created it. Yeah. And then in terms of the judging panel, we kind of what, [00:47:05] what what Avi was kind of sorry, Prof. Banerjee was, was saying, um, [00:47:10] was that, um, we need less [00:47:15] your high street, your Instagram dentists and more academics [00:47:20] because.

Saif Mukadam: They know what it’s like.

Lwai Almasri: They know what it’s like to judge students. Of course, the issue that he [00:47:25] then said is that academics don’t like this kind of stuff. So you’re going to struggle to get academics to agree [00:47:30] to, to judge something like this, which is very fair. But again, you need [00:47:35] to just be able to find a balance, which is what we’ve been. So what have you got? I mean, I don’t think we can leak. [00:47:40]

Payman Langroudi: No, no. But what kinds of people have you got.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. So we’ve got, we’ve got lots of like potential. I’ve [00:47:45] got I can save this name. For example. I’ve got we’ve got down potential. Like, for example, Prof. Roger Ryan, [00:47:50] if you’ve heard of him. Yeah. Yeah. So someone that, you know, he’s worked very closely with my dad, for [00:47:55] example. And I know him as a both a postgraduate academic, an undergraduate academic, very [00:48:00] seasoned academic himself with a long list of qualifications. So we [00:48:05] kind of did want a balance of maybe because we want around 25 or so judges. So [00:48:10] you’ve got a.

Payman Langroudi: Couple of profs. What else?

Lwai Almasri: And then you’ve got your high street dentists as well. Oh have.

Payman Langroudi: You. Yeah. [00:48:15]

Lwai Almasri: So your instagrammy ones because because at the same time.

Payman Langroudi: Name one type.

Lwai Almasri: Do [00:48:20] you want to name one.

Payman Langroudi: Why not?

Saif Mukadam: Why not.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t really, but why not? I don’t say.

Lwai Almasri: Because the thing is, we haven’t really [00:48:25] spoke.

Saif Mukadam: To them yet. We haven’t spoken.

Lwai Almasri: No no, no. So we have to some. But we haven’t confirmed a lot of them. [00:48:30] Yeah. So we don’t want we don’t want to say the name.

Saif Mukadam: Say they’re like, what am I doing that?

Lwai Almasri: And then they [00:48:35] hear it before kind of.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve all heard the names those types. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: You’ve you’ve heard some of the names. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:48:40] And then any students.

Lwai Almasri: So we want fresh. We want freshly [00:48:45] graduated students. So like you’re we have foundation dentists. We have foundation [00:48:50] dentists that are just graduated. And we picked them as ones that we thought were [00:48:55] very, you know, on it, on it when they were students. I mean, for [00:49:00] example.

Saif Mukadam: Academics and extracurriculars. So they know what it’s like. They know.

Lwai Almasri: How to. I’ll call him doctor [00:49:05] now, even though he’s a good friend of mine, just because he’s graduated. So I’ll respect his title. But for example, Tani doctor Tani Kulkarni, [00:49:10] he was very I mean, you’ve had him on the podcast as well actually. Yeah. So he was very [00:49:15] on it as a student extracurricular wise. I mean, graduated with honours.

Payman Langroudi: I’m really he’s really [00:49:20] on it as a human. Really? Yeah, exactly.

Lwai Almasri: So, so so someone like him, uh, [00:49:25] as a, as a judge would be great because, you know, he recently did. He knows what it’s [00:49:30] like to be a student, not you two know. So we will not be judges. We will [00:49:35] not. We will not be entering even as as as applicants to it. We we are completely, [00:49:40] Um, we don’t want any bias. We don’t want any level.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah. Imagine the people who [00:49:45] decided to create the idea and then.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. If we applied and where the guys that are running it, it’s. We [00:49:50] don’t want to lose credibility in that sense. And also. Yeah, it just doesn’t seem fair. So we’ll be [00:49:55] staying clear of applying and we will not be judging whatsoever.

Payman Langroudi: And these judges, they’ll they’ll do it for [00:50:00] free and just do it.

Lwai Almasri: I mean, I’m not like I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Not [00:50:05] saying they need I mean, so.

Lwai Almasri: The way that our partnership with FMC kind of works is that it [00:50:10] was a matter of like you said, Craig said to you get the numbers and we’ll handle the rest. So obviously [00:50:15] they’re very well practised and versed in getting judges, you know, all of that [00:50:20] stuff. So they’re kind of dealing with that, dealing with that. Yeah, they’re dealing with that side of it in the sense [00:50:25] of even with getting the judges are why I’ve been calling it a potential [00:50:30] judge list is because we’ve come up with names. It’s a partnership at the end of the day. So if they say no to [00:50:35] a specific person or they recommend, we’re obviously going to talk about it, discuss and work on it together type thing [00:50:40] and see where the judge, you know, selection kind of comes in in, in play. And that’s kind [00:50:45] of the advice that we took from from Prof. Banerjee was, you know, make sure that your judges [00:50:50] are people that are going to give the students what they want and not just, oh, this guy’s good. [00:50:55] Let me, let me um, uh, let me, you know, give him top 50 and whatnot, [00:51:00] and they’ll give feedback. The main thing that we wanted was, was also to give feedback to students, because at the end of the day, like we [00:51:05] said, we want.

Saif Mukadam: To know, why didn’t I win? Not just that, but to.

Lwai Almasri: Better yourself for the next year, because we [00:51:10] plan on making it a yearly thing. Um, and for even those that don’t win, like, like Saif [00:51:15] said, the event in itself, it’s going to be a conference during the day with a trade fair and [00:51:20] then the award ceremony and then a party like thing afterwards. Um, where [00:51:25] it’s at the end of the day, it’s again, it’s a networking opportunity in itself.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:51:30] is there a date for the event already?

Lwai Almasri: Not yet. Not yet, but we are looking at summertime [00:51:35] end of exams. So all universities will have finished exams. We don’t want to do it too far [00:51:40] into summer because obviously dentists have holidays and their kids and whatnot when they want to come because we’re [00:51:45] merging the two events together, essentially all.

Payman Langroudi: The top 50, actual top 50.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. So that’s the point of it being the top 50 [00:51:50] of today. Meet the top 50 of tomorrow. Um, and merging it together. And so [00:51:55] it would be one big event where they can network. Everybody meets and, you know, stuff like that. So [00:52:00] we don’t want it for when the dentists have kids and they summer holidays and whatnot. And we also we know that [00:52:05] uni students like to go on holiday as well when as soon as you get summer starting. So we don’t want to do.

Saif Mukadam: It early summer. So [00:52:10] we want to make the most of it when we get.

Lwai Almasri: Exactly. So we kind of want to do it just at the start of summer where the weather’s nicer, everyone’s [00:52:15] kind of happy. The exams are finished. So it’s a good way to celebrate and start this.

Payman Langroudi: And does it have a name? Not yet, [00:52:20] not.

Lwai Almasri: Yet, not yet. But hopefully soon. Hopefully in the next couple of days we’ll be announcing [00:52:25] the, um, the rest of the information.

Saif Mukadam: The behind the scenes per se that I’ve been been working. [00:52:30] We’ve been working.

Lwai Almasri: On this since since May, almost.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s interesting because, uh, [00:52:35] This event is going to have to be sponsor led. Yeah. And [00:52:40] so you’ve got to persuade sponsors to come on board with this. And there’s so many [00:52:45] events. Right. It’s not an easy sell. It’s not an easy sell to sponsors. But you leave that to FMC [00:52:50] as well.

Lwai Almasri: I mean, if they want our help with it, we’re more than happy to. But they’ve said thankfully that, [00:52:55] yeah, they’ve got they’ve got their team veterans and they know what they’re doing with that. And we trust them completely [00:53:00] with, you know, getting a venue, sorting out that stuff.

Payman Langroudi: So have [00:53:05] you guys ever listened to this podcast before?

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, quite a few episodes. I’ve seen the.

Saif Mukadam: Clips on Instagram. Oh yeah, [00:53:10] I love the clips on Instagram. They’re quite nice.

Lwai Almasri: I have a bit of. I have a bit of a commute to university, so I actually listened to some of [00:53:15] the episodes on my way to uni and back home.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, well, there’s this bit in this podcast where it suddenly gets dark. [00:53:20] Okay. Yeah. And the dark part. Generally we like to go into clinical mistakes, [00:53:25] right?

Lwai Almasri: Yeah.

Saif Mukadam: You can’t ask me that because I think yes.

Payman Langroudi: We can ask you. [00:53:30] Yeah. But mistakes. Yeah. And it’s this question around We don’t learn [00:53:35] from each other’s mistakes. And you know the group, for instance, it’s good for that sort of thing [00:53:40] as well, that kind of conversation. But when I say, what’s the biggest mistake you’ve made in dentistry so far? [00:53:45] What comes to mind?

Saif Mukadam: Mistake in dentistry? I can’t it’s [00:53:50] not really been much for me to make a mistake on yet, but tooth waxing? What was supposed to say? No, but I’m [00:53:55] saying like no. Like as an overall package in year one, I think I got involved a lot with what I wanted to, but I feel like I [00:54:00] could have done more. I’m not going to lie. Like there were so many opportunities, so many events, like so [00:54:05] many things that could you.

Payman Langroudi: Click out a little bit? Is that what happened? No, I don’t.

Saif Mukadam: Think I never clicked out. I’ve always just [00:54:10] been there, been involved. Yeah. Met people whatnot. But I feel like I could have gone to this.

Lwai Almasri: Safe is what we [00:54:15] call on campus a Banach.

Saif Mukadam: Okay.

Lwai Almasri: A big name on campus. Everyone and everybody knows [00:54:20] who he is. So I wouldn’t say. I wouldn’t say he’s the first.

Payman Langroudi: Time I’ve heard that someone else mentioned. [00:54:25]

Lwai Almasri: That he. I wouldn’t say he’s cliquey.

Saif Mukadam: No. So I like I like to get to know people. I’m [00:54:30] quite like genuinely like, you know, I meet someone? I’m not like this professional. [00:54:35] I make a joke, I do what I want to say, I say what I want to say when I want to say it. I hate [00:54:40] this idea of being professional all the time. And you meet someone. You have to turn it on and be someone else. Yeah. [00:54:45] I can’t do it. Like I don’t know how to do it.

Payman Langroudi: Me too, me too. I know.

Saif Mukadam: It’s impossible. Like, I just, I don’t [00:54:50] know, I just struggle with it. So when I meet people.

Lwai Almasri: What was the.

Payman Langroudi: Error? What was the error?

Saif Mukadam: It’s like you didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Get involved.

Saif Mukadam: Enough. [00:54:55] Going to more stuff, events and whatnot. I met people, but I [00:55:00] could have got involved more. Probably.

Payman Langroudi: But I’m not going to accept that.

Saif Mukadam: You’re not going to accept that.

Payman Langroudi: You can think about it [00:55:05] while we.

Saif Mukadam: No, no, no.

Lwai Almasri: Genuinely not accept.

Payman Langroudi: That. I accept that as part of our conversation. [00:55:10] But I’m not going to accept that as.

Lwai Almasri: My biggest mistake.

Saif Mukadam: Biggest mistake? Big mistake. I wouldn’t.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, I wouldn’t say have a think.

Payman Langroudi: Have a think. [00:55:15]

Lwai Almasri: Okay. Do we want a clinical mistake or. Sure. I think again, clinically wise we haven’t [00:55:20] done much. But for me, clinical wise, I’d say my biggest mistake we. [00:55:25] So like I mentioned to you, I’m already repeating I am repeating my third year. So I did oral surgery last [00:55:30] year. Yeah. Um, as well as I’m obviously redoing it this year, towards the end of your third year, [00:55:35] you actually start instead of just shadowing oral surgery, you get to your last session is split into [00:55:40] four sessions. Your day one, two and three. You’re just shadowing day four. [00:55:45] You actually get to potentially depending on patient flow and whatnot, potentially do some extractions. [00:55:50] And I was fortunate enough in my day four of last year to get to do an extraction. [00:55:55] And this was I had done extractions on cadavers before and whatnot with my dad and stuff like that, but never [00:56:00] on a real patient where there’s a lot of blood and whatever. [00:56:05] And I, um, I perforated the sinus, and [00:56:10] I caused an OAC first extraction. Yeah. First extraction.

Payman Langroudi: Well done.

Lwai Almasri: Which is, [00:56:15] uh, not great. But again, I learned from my mistake and, [00:56:20] you know, caused a lot of panic. And it kind of sucks because obviously, you have to tell the patient that you messed up [00:56:25] and the patient’s there regretting their decision, coming into an undergraduate clinic and not just getting their [00:56:30] tooth extracted normally and being let to be seen by a student and agreeing to it and whatnot, [00:56:35] because also the tutor is actually the patient can say they want the tutor to do it, or more experienced student [00:56:40] to do it. They let me do it. So I felt really, really bad.

Payman Langroudi: But what could you have done differently? [00:56:45]

Lwai Almasri: That’s the thing. So actually on reflection, I when I, when I got home and because the funny thing is, [00:56:50] is actually this is the first time I think my kaizen. So I’ll explain what a kaizen is in a minute [00:56:55] was actually useful for me. Kaizen for us are whenever we have a clinical session, [00:57:00] we have to go on afterwards. Talk about what went well. Even better if.

Payman Langroudi: Reflection. [00:57:05] Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: And like talk about what you did and what happened and what you’ll do better next time. And your tutor has [00:57:10] to sign it off and say what you did well and as well, and write some feedback. And you have to submit [00:57:15] it and it gets and they count how many kaizen you do throughout your uni career. I’ve always found them useless because [00:57:20] I always put went well, did filling, gave LA did this whatever [00:57:25] job done patient happy sign off. Even the tutors sometimes find it a drag to have to sign them off. Because imagine [00:57:30] that I have to do one Kaizen. A tutor has to reply to 60 odd questions because they have [00:57:35] how many students they’ve got in their clinic. Yeah, so that must be horrible for them that [00:57:40] one day, my kaizen, I actually put a lot of effort into writing into it because and I realise at the end [00:57:45] there was actually nothing that I could have done differently because I did my figure of eight movement. I followed [00:57:50] all the instructions that I, in theory, been taught. It just clinically went wrong. [00:57:55] And the tutor actually was really sweet. She was really lovely. And she said, this happened to her before. She’s, she’s. [00:58:00] Yeah, she’s caused it before. Um, in fact, a lot of times she said that patience will cause it to themselves after you’ve [00:58:05] given them an extraction and they’ll come back and say that you did it to them. So she was like, don’t beat yourself up [00:58:10] about it. It happens. I mean, I know also a lot of people, they did their first endo and [00:58:15] they perforated as well.

Payman Langroudi: Me yeah.

Lwai Almasri: So so it happens. And at the end of the day, you [00:58:20] can’t let it bog you down and stop you from doing extractions, because it’d be crazy to say I never want to [00:58:25] do an extraction again. And, you know, because in your DFT you do. How many extractions.

Payman Langroudi: Not [00:58:30] enough. Yeah it’s.

Lwai Almasri: Still not.

Payman Langroudi: Enough. It’s a bit it’s a bit early to to to talk [00:58:35] about not doing things. Yeah exactly. So that said, that said I think I [00:58:40] broke a two tuberosity once. Wow. Okay. And you say to the patient, [00:58:45] upper rate is the easiest, uh, tooth in the mouth to extract. Yeah. And [00:58:50] then it is it’s very easy to, to extract. You just push it. Push it. And and I’ve done so many [00:58:55] of them that I felt really comfortable. And I just pushed it. And this massive bit of [00:59:00] bone, I’m talking bigger than the tooth. Wow. Came out with the tooth and [00:59:05] blood like you’ve never. So what did you do? Well, I didn’t I wasn’t I couldn’t understand what [00:59:10] had happened because because you’ve done it so many times before that you think that thing, you know. [00:59:15] Yeah. And then you start to realise how little you know as these things go wrong. But yeah, I mean, [00:59:20] I think I was six years of dentist at this point. Yeah. Um, do you know, stitched it up, [00:59:25] dude. Stitched it up. But the funny thing is, that whole thing that you said about the patient thinking [00:59:30] I should have told not not been here in the first place. You know, your biggest problem isn’t the [00:59:35] clinical situation. Sometimes it’s the patient. Yeah. Because you. And having said to the guy, it’s the easiest [00:59:40] tooth in the mouth to extract and then you’ve got this massive situation. Obviously you have a you have.

Lwai Almasri: You [00:59:45] have you have the duty of candour like you have to when something goes wrong, you can’t just fix it and not tell them. [00:59:50]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, there was no way there was. You could fix this without him knowing it.

Lwai Almasri: Well, yeah, that too, but also, like, [00:59:55] it’s a bonus. Yeah, but like even like.

Payman Langroudi: Even.

Lwai Almasri: Even even if you slipped, for example, [01:00:00] and you cut them a little bit, something that they might not even notice. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: No, you have to tell them.

Lwai Almasri: You have [01:00:05] to tell them.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: And that’s the hardest part is telling a patient that you that you messed up, especially because you’re, [01:00:10] you, you get crammed into you especially at uni, they cram into you GDC guidelines of don’t let the patient [01:00:15] like like make sure your social media image is good because don’t let patients lose trust [01:00:20] in the dental profession and all of this, and they need to have confidence in it. Important, though. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do we have an error [01:00:25] from you?

Saif Mukadam: Honestly? Genuinely, no.

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t have to be clinical. It doesn’t have to be clinical. It can be like a, [01:00:30] I don’t know, something else.

Saif Mukadam: I actually just don’t have anything. To be honest, I think I tried a bit hard in term one.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [01:00:35] your biggest weakness?

Saif Mukadam: My weakness?

Lwai Almasri: Yeah.

Saif Mukadam: Um. [01:00:40]

Lwai Almasri: I think I know your biggest weakness.

Saif Mukadam: Oh, you know, my biggest weakness?

Lwai Almasri: I think [01:00:45] so what.

Saif Mukadam: Is my biggest weakness?

Lwai Almasri: You trust very easily.

Saif Mukadam: No, [01:00:50] I wouldn’t say so.

Lwai Almasri: I think so, from an outsider perspective, I’d say. You think so?

Payman Langroudi: I like that I call [01:00:55] that a strength, not a weakness.

Lwai Almasri: Trust me. Trusting too easily. Yeah. It’s a the thing is, that’s [01:01:00] why. That’s why I think you might not be because it works as a strength, but it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Come on. What’s your biggest weakness? [01:01:05] What the hell? What if we asked your friends and family?

Saif Mukadam: You know they can. You can ask me if you want to.

Payman Langroudi: What would they say? [01:01:10]

Saif Mukadam: But I genuinely, I don’t know, I actually don’t know. I’ve thought.

Payman Langroudi: About it. You know, it’s one of those questions, that classic [01:01:15] interview question. Right?

Saif Mukadam: Yeah. What’s your biggest.

Lwai Almasri: What did you say in your Dental interview?

Payman Langroudi: I ask an interview. I ask [01:01:20] an interview when people don’t give me the answer to that. I generally don’t hire them. I feel like, oh, this [01:01:25] person doesn’t know themselves.

Saif Mukadam: No, because you know what it is like. I’ve had, [01:01:30] like, issues and like, setbacks and whatnot, but I wouldn’t say [01:01:35] it’s because of a weakness, but like, yeah, I genuinely couldn’t even say. I think you know what one of them [01:01:40] is that I can get distracted very easily. That’s a massive weakness.

Lwai Almasri: 100%.

Saif Mukadam: Like genuinely [01:01:45] like.

Payman Langroudi: Adhd, sort of.

Saif Mukadam: No, no. Like sort.

Lwai Almasri: Of.

Saif Mukadam: Seriously?

Lwai Almasri: Maybe not a bit. [01:01:50]

Saif Mukadam: No, it’s really bad. Like. So I’ll be in the library and like, yeah, I’ll do everything but work. [01:01:55]

Payman Langroudi: And I’m the same. I’m the same. It’s like.

Saif Mukadam: Speak to this one. Go speak to that one. Go do something.

Lwai Almasri: You know, it’s 11 p.m.. [01:02:00]

Saif Mukadam: Be bothered to do the work. So I procrastinate, right? There was a good like a [01:02:05] week or so last year. Like an exact time where I spent like eight, ten hours in the library, but [01:02:10] I’ve done two hours of work. How does that make sense?

Lwai Almasri: I also think that the library in itself. I’ve been there. The [01:02:15] King’s library, New Hunt’s house, library for any King students listening to this that everybody knows that [01:02:20] in exam season you stay at home and you study at home. You know, it’s too much of a social. It’s so it’s [01:02:25] only social, that library. Unless you if you want to do work, there’s there’s.

Saif Mukadam: It got [01:02:30] to the point where I was literally putting myself in a corner in the silence.

Lwai Almasri: You upstairs. You have to hide.

Saif Mukadam: And [01:02:35] speak to anyone.

Lwai Almasri: You have to hide and headphones on. And don’t you have to be rude to people and say, guys, [01:02:40] I’m studying. Unless otherwise go study. I know people that would started just staying at home [01:02:45] just so that they could study in exam season. Because they say I.

Saif Mukadam: Say that as a weakness though, but it can also [01:02:50] be a strength like that. The reason why I distract myself and whatnot is because I like to speak [01:02:55] to people. I like to catch up whatnot.

Payman Langroudi: Listen, in general, in life, your biggest strength is your biggest [01:03:00] weakness. Of course.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah, I think that’s a good idea. In general analogy.

Payman Langroudi: Um, let’s [01:03:05] get into the course itself. What aspects of the course so far [01:03:10] feel like they’ve been a waste of time, or what aspects feel like they haven’t? It’s [01:03:15] that it’s difficult to tell.

Lwai Almasri: I mean, I mean, you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Halfway through, but we were talking before about, you know, bio.

Lwai Almasri: Chem. [01:03:20] Yeah.

Saif Mukadam: So first term, like, I know for a fact I am never going to use that clinically. Like, [01:03:25] do you know what that is?

Lwai Almasri: Depending on the path that you go down, you actually might.

Saif Mukadam: Because for me personally, [01:03:30] I mean, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You might become an oral surgeon, right. And then that clotting cascade, whatever it was [01:03:35] you learned suddenly becomes a thing. Yeah.

Saif Mukadam: But you might have. [01:03:40] But I didn’t do it. That’s for.

Lwai Almasri: Sure. Exactly. So.

Payman Langroudi: But some people make the argument, [01:03:45] they say, oh, it’s like once you become an oral surgeon, go learn all that. Yeah. Because you’re right. I mean, for instance, [01:03:50] we’re in teeth whitening, right? Whitening isn’t taught. Of course not throughout [01:03:55] the dental course. There’s. I think I’ve asked so many people. There’s one sort of half an hour session. [01:04:00] Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: So I did.

Payman Langroudi: Tooth whitening or bleaching.

Lwai Almasri: I did tooth whitening two weeks ago [01:04:05] in. Oh you did. But we don’t get it taught by dentists. We get it taught by lab technicians.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, for [01:04:10] the trade design in labs.

Lwai Almasri: And they. And they don’t teach you about whitening. They teach [01:04:15] you about shades and just.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, was in photography and the colour.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. And they just tell you that whitening [01:04:20] exists. That’s it. It’s basically. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s really interesting because like, [01:04:25] it’s not like it’s not implants or something where, you know, that kind of is a or ortho [01:04:30] speciality that you do a specialised thing that you do afterwards. Whitening. It’s a very [01:04:35] simple thing that, you know.

Lwai Almasri: A general dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Can do. A general dentist can do for £299 on [01:04:40] your first day in practice. You might have to do it, and it’s not taught in dental school. And yet [01:04:45] we look down microscopes and histology.

Saif Mukadam: Look at.

Lwai Almasri: Histology.

Saif Mukadam: So exciting. Yeah. [01:04:50]

Payman Langroudi: So, you know, because I’m in whitening, obviously that’s what I’m going to say. Yeah. But what else have [01:04:55] you identified? I mean, you were talking about this haptic. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: I mentioned to you the haptics lab. I mean, so.

Payman Langroudi: Explain what that is. [01:05:00] Explain what that is.

Lwai Almasri: In guy’s tower in the hospital on floor 18. They have this beautiful [01:05:05] looking lab that they’ve got about ten or so haptics machines. They spent millions. [01:05:10]

Saif Mukadam: Of pounds 20 years. Quite. It’s nice 20 machines. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: They spent millions of pounds developing it. It’s [01:05:15] a beautiful room with a lovely view of London and all of that. The whole of guys. Yeah. And you [01:05:20] basically you look into this screen almost like. And you grab [01:05:25] this fake drill and fake mirror, and so.

Payman Langroudi: There is no drill or mirror in your hand at [01:05:30] all.

Lwai Almasri: No, it’s a fake. It’s a pen.

Saif Mukadam: It’s two pens simulated.

Lwai Almasri: It’s simulated. Phantom head [01:05:35] essentially is how I can describe it. Okay. And the the drill is weighted to a fast handpiece [01:05:40] somehow. And the mirror pen is weighted to mirror [01:05:45] roughly. And you sit there and you have like a head, they’ve got like a fake [01:05:50] phantom head with no teeth in it. And you, when you look into the screen, there’s teeth. Oh. And [01:05:55] as you drill, it’s you get feedback. So like you feel like feedback, you get vibrations [01:06:00] and you get like the.

Payman Langroudi: Sounds great.

Saif Mukadam: On paper. It sounds amazing in theory.

Lwai Almasri: Sounds great. I promise you, it’s nothing [01:06:05] like phantom head. Mm. No, no.

Saif Mukadam: I was I mean, I obviously came, I [01:06:10] was like, yeah, I’m so excited for haptics I can’t wait. Yeah. I spoke to this guy. He was like, bro, just wait till you do Phantom [01:06:15] heads. It’s nothing like it.

Lwai Almasri: Nothing. And I’d done. I’d done a couple phantom heads before, before uni, as part [01:06:20] of my, like, application with my dad. So I’d done Phantom Head before, I’d done haptics, and [01:06:25] I knew haptics was nothing like it, and no one believed me until they started second year. And [01:06:30] the worst part about haptics, I think, is, is that not only it’s cool if you just did it in first year, fine. [01:06:35] Bit of a waste of money or overspent or whatever, but cool. You do it in first year to prepare them for phantom head. [01:06:40] You do it in second year, you do it in third year, you do it in fourth year, and you do it in fifth [01:06:45] year.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so every procedure you start with that. Well, it’s not that.

Lwai Almasri: You start with I don’t know what they do [01:06:50] it in fourth and fifth year, but there’s compulsory like I do Crown preps in now in third year on [01:06:55] haptics. But I do Crown preps also on Phantom head. And then it’s nothing alike. [01:07:00] And like it’s just it’s.

Payman Langroudi: I guess they spend it’s compulsory to use it.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. And it’s compulsory [01:07:05] attendance and it’s registered and you get in trouble if you don’t go. And like I [01:07:10] could just see I would rather have phantom head time, which is only once every two weeks. And [01:07:15] it’s the fact that in my head, they spent millions on developing this lab. They [01:07:20] really are stingy on giving us phantom head plastic teeth, because each cave tooth is, what, like a pound [01:07:25] per tooth or something like that. And it’s like, well, if we give every student then. But you spent how many millions [01:07:30] on a, on a haptic lab, you could have used that and got more teeth and I could do more crown prep because we get given 32 teeth, [01:07:35] a full dentition at the start of the year and third year, and that has to last.

Payman Langroudi: They compared to [01:07:40] actual teeth.

Lwai Almasri: What, the phantom head teeth? Yeah. I’ve never done a crown prep on a human, but [01:07:45] yeah, I’ve done fillings. Uh, they’re okay, obviously they’re plastic. I mean, the main premise of it [01:07:50] that you learn from Phantom Head is kind of getting your finger, like, rests [01:07:55] and stuff like that, and navigating the. Because we used to.

Payman Langroudi: Use actual teeth. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: So we do in [01:08:00] second year.

Saif Mukadam: So yeah.

Lwai Almasri: So we’re part of first year is they ask you to go [01:08:05] collect teeth from dental practices, and you create your phantom head arches for second [01:08:10] year to practice resto and you do fillings and stuff on actual teeth. In third year [01:08:15] you do plastic teeth for crown preps and only crown preps because it’s a bit hard to do a crown prep on because [01:08:20] they’re all all extracted teeth have messed up teeth, unless it’s for ortho or [01:08:25] something like that. So you can’t really practice crown preps on them. But I mean, the cool thing is, is [01:08:30] you kind of learn to adapt around the mouth and whatnot. But what’s so silly about haptics is [01:08:35] that you can’t even practice a finger rest because there’s no teeth physically on that phantom head unit. [01:08:40] So I’m actually just floating. I’m floating, I’m finger resting on the head. So it’s actually [01:08:45] instilling bad habit, if anything, for me. So I don’t know. I think that was that. And the fact [01:08:50] that we don’t get the choice of going in person and having a lecture like I told you, and that all lectures [01:08:55] are only online and pre-recorded, I think that there’s benefits to it, because I like being [01:09:00] able to do my lectures in my own time, pausing and stopping and but in person lectures were always recorded anyway. [01:09:05] So like, I would prefer the option of being able to attend because genuinely, in first [01:09:10] year we could have lived at home in Birmingham 100%. Normally you.

Saif Mukadam: Wouldn’t easily. [01:09:15]

Lwai Almasri: And commuted whenever there was a histology. It’s an hour and a half train. Like, [01:09:20] do you get what I mean? Yeah, I could have easily done that.

Payman Langroudi: And I guess, like when it’s all done at home, [01:09:25] you don’t get that feeling of like being in uni. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: You’re not. The point of it is, is that you’re at [01:09:30] uni. You need to meet your course mates, meet, meet uni is meant to be the greatest time for a lot of people [01:09:35] and people. My dad was telling me before I came, you’ll meet lifelong friends at uni. If your course is [01:09:40] online, we will. That’s why. That’s why New Hunt’s House library, by the way, is very social because a lot [01:09:45] of first years come there just to socialise because otherwise they’ll do the lectures in their dorm. Do you get what I [01:09:50] mean?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So. Well, is it because of the year you’re in that you’ve, you’ve got no choice for in person. But [01:09:55] you do know.

Saif Mukadam: So I they tried to make it more in person when I was there. So [01:10:00] we had about, I don’t know, like 30% of the lecturers in person even then. Like I don’t know, [01:10:05] about 20 people would turn up because they know the lecture is going to get recorded anyway. So even if [01:10:10] you don’t go, you can just watch it in your own time. So I used to go purely just to chill with my mates, a [01:10:15] bit of fun, go eat some food afterwards, like make it a little bit of a motive basically [01:10:20] because we don’t get that like historically exactly the same. I did not pick up a single thing in histology, [01:10:25] but chilling with our mates, looking down the microscope, having a bit of fun. Yeah, that was enjoyable because [01:10:30] I was chilling with my classmates getting to know him, but for him, because he had nothing in person [01:10:35] because of Covid whatnot, which is fair. Like obviously you don’t want to spread the disease and whatnot. Yeah, he didn’t get [01:10:40] to know him as as well as I feel like I did, but I think he did as well.

Lwai Almasri: I actually realised that there was so [01:10:45] many people in my year that I didn’t know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s such big a year. Massive. Yeah. So it’s like.

Lwai Almasri: 140 [01:10:50] to 80 depending.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: With the th yeah with the dental therapy and hygiene. [01:10:55] So that’s like another 30. So a lot of.

Saif Mukadam: People whereas like most dental schools max 70, 70, 80 a year [01:11:00] group.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah we were.

Saif Mukadam: A lot.

Lwai Almasri: Smaller. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Even so like.

Lwai Almasri: I don’t know I didn’t [01:11:05] know so many people in my year group, I in fact, I knew a lot. I knew more people in in the year above [01:11:10] me than the commuters in my year group. I only knew in first year the people that lived [01:11:15] in my accommodation that essentially because those were the only people I saw. And that [01:11:20] that for me was probably why Aecom was a great experience was because I got to meet so [01:11:25] many people. Community feel I felt, yeah, like I didn’t get to great. I didn’t get to feel that on [01:11:30] campus per se, because no one was coming in. We didn’t have clinics. Um, [01:11:35] and that’s I realised it in second year when we started Phantom Head and people started actually coming in. [01:11:40] I don’t know, 90% of the people here like because my group, you don’t get to pick your [01:11:45] groups. So I wasn’t with my friends or I had two maybe of my friends, the rest of the 40 [01:11:50] people in the room, no clue who they were, never seen their face before. I was reading [01:11:55] the register when we were signing. I don’t know who these people are. So like. And you felt like you were in the wrong place, which [01:12:00] is crazy because you’re at uni and you you’d think that you’d get to see everybody and meet everyone And you do [01:12:05] later on, I guess. Which is nice.

Saif Mukadam: But now. Yeah. So now obviously.

Lwai Almasri: And now Covid obviously is [01:12:10] a thing of the past. It’s obviously like something. Did you.

Payman Langroudi: Guys consider a year out between [01:12:15] college and.

Saif Mukadam: I didn’t obviously I had my two years of football. So I was going.

Payman Langroudi: You’d already done. [01:12:20]

Saif Mukadam: That took a year out. It would have been even older.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah yeah.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah yeah. No it’s no, I never considered a year out [01:12:25] because I knew I was doing the football, but yeah.

Lwai Almasri: No, I didn’t think of it a year. I didn’t think of taking a year out between [01:12:30] school and I mean.

Saif Mukadam: Um, my, my career diversion, I was great.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. [01:12:35] I mean, I mean, for me, it was more of a matter of. I kind of just wanted to get to uni. [01:12:40] I kind of just was ready to to, you know, move out of home, kind of like start, [01:12:45] I don’t know, just wanted to kind of get those five years done. Not not per se get them done. [01:12:50] But I can’t lie, I was just ready for moving on to the next chapter, essentially.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But why couldn’t [01:12:55] the next chapter be in Vietnam? You know, I mean, it’s true, it’s very true.

Lwai Almasri: But like a lot [01:13:00] of people do do that. Yeah, I know, so I know a lot of people in my year at school actually took a year. They were applying medicine, dentistry, [01:13:05] and they took a year out, travelled and then went and they got their offer. They just deferred it to the next year. They actually had [01:13:10] to do nothing, not even redo Ucat. Not even so. Like that was an option. But just for me, I was like [01:13:15] five years of dental school. Seems like a while.

Payman Langroudi: I’m trying to persuade my son to take a year out.

Lwai Almasri: I [01:13:20] think it has a lot of benefit. And my my little sister actually right now is applying, is taking her year out. [01:13:25] She applied dentistry. She’s taking her year out and she will go to dental school next year, hopefully. So [01:13:30] she’s taking a year out. The thing is it’s it is foresight. I just didn’t know what I would do with my [01:13:35] year. So like, I didn’t think that there was something productive or beneficial that I could.

Payman Langroudi: Gain, but [01:13:40] you know what I mean. Travel. Feed the hungry. Start a Start-Up.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, I mean.

Payman Langroudi: The usual.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, but [01:13:45] I don’t know. It just didn’t it wasn’t something that resonated with me. So I was like, it was not something that I wanted. It was a [01:13:50] bit of a.

Saif Mukadam: Worry sometimes as well. Like, let’s say you take a gap year, a lot of students will think, oh, I’m behind [01:13:55] now. Like I said to me, I’ve even posted a post about it on LinkedIn, so obviously I’m now two years [01:14:00] behind. You know, I get the odd joke. Her Granddad. Uncle, I genuinely do. You know, [01:14:05] I got asked the other day. How are your knees? I’m 22. I’m not 44. You don’t be. Yeah. [01:14:10] So you get a joke and people get worried. Oh. I’m behind. I’m not on the right side. On the right timeline. [01:14:15] Same timeline as my peers.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but that’s rubbish.

Saif Mukadam: There’s no worry at all, because.

Lwai Almasri: That’s. [01:14:20]

Payman Langroudi: Complete rubbish.

Saif Mukadam: In my year group, there’s. I’d say 40%. 40% are [01:14:25] gap year students. Yeah. Whereas in like, there’s it’s so common. Like, why is [01:14:30] there a worry about it. Why is there a taboo about it? Even people who do postgrad like well their undergrad. But they’ve done a degree [01:14:35] beforehand. They’re there as well. Like there’s no issue with being. No, there’s no.

Payman Langroudi: Issue with that. I mean, [01:14:40] there’s there’s this I mean.

Saif Mukadam: There’s a taboo about it for some reason.

Payman Langroudi: There’s this question of, Will the kid just [01:14:45] give up on studies altogether?

Lwai Almasri: Oh.

Saif Mukadam: I’m not sure about that one.

Payman Langroudi: It’s well, it’s like my my [01:14:50] parents are saying you’re crazy to try and persuade him to go.

Saif Mukadam: There’s no longevity. [01:14:55] Then if you just give up on studies.

Payman Langroudi: No, because he’s had a year off, you know, he’s like, now he’s not in the same mindset that [01:15:00] we could.

Saif Mukadam: Have asked me that same question, like, I finished.

Payman Langroudi: Football.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah, exactly. What made you go back into A-levels? Because what [01:15:05] am I going to do? Like sit at home, do nothing? No, I’ve got to have something going forward. [01:15:10] And studies was what I wanted to do. I mean, I’m not saying.

Payman Langroudi: This is a really interesting reason why I’m trying [01:15:15] to tell my son is, okay now he’s working his butt off for A-levels and [01:15:20] he wants to do aerospace engineering, and it’s very, very competitive and so [01:15:25] on. And let’s say it goes really well for him. And he gets into Cambridge [01:15:30] to do aerospace engineering. He’s going to get there. His first emotion is going to be what we said about being [01:15:35] suddenly surrounded by these geniuses who are better than you. Yeah, 100%. Let’s imagine [01:15:40] it goes really well. He gets to Cambridge and that happens. So then then, okay, now he’s got [01:15:45] to work his butt off in Cambridge. Let’s say let’s go.

Lwai Almasri: It’s very true.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, [01:15:50] there they do all of engineering in the first two years. All of it. Yeah. And [01:15:55] then in year three and four they specialise. Okay. Four years of working your butt off. Then [01:16:00] let’s say he wants to become. I don’t know, a banker for the sake of the argument. Yeah, he’s stuck in a 9 to 5. He [01:16:05] gets picked up by Morgan Stanley or some bank somewhere. Get there. Those [01:16:10] guys are proper motivated.

Lwai Almasri: Not even 9 to 5.

Payman Langroudi: That’s. No, that’s like a 9 to 9. Seven. [01:16:15]

Lwai Almasri: 7 to 7.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Straight slog. You answer this mobile whatever happens. Right. And [01:16:20] so let’s say he does really well with that. Yeah. And let’s say he gets promoted and he becomes this.

Lwai Almasri: When [01:16:25] does he have a break partner.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. But at one point yeah there’s this notion, this notion [01:16:30] of I’m going to do so well here that I can go on any holiday I want. Yeah. Yeah. [01:16:35] And holidays. But especially when you get older dudes. Yeah. Like one week holiday just doesn’t feel like [01:16:40] holiday. Yeah. I want, like, a six month. Yeah. Or twice.

Lwai Almasri: A year. Six month holiday. Twice a year. [01:16:45] Six months.

Payman Langroudi: I want to I want to work from somewhere else for the sake of the argument. For the sake [01:16:50] of the argument. Yeah, I could like I could want.

Saif Mukadam: To have that option. Yeah. You want to have it? We could.

Payman Langroudi: Do. I could be sitting in Thailand [01:16:55] right now. Yeah. Talking to? To you, of course. Anyway, at [01:17:00] one point, the super successful banker guy who does so well that he can have a whole year [01:17:05] off. Yeah. You know, whereas you can just take that year at the beginning. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: I [01:17:10] mean, I never really looked at it that way, I guess. I mean, that’s the thing. So I mean, the [01:17:15] way that you just said it, where you can, it’s a good break before [01:17:20] realising that you’re stuck potentially afterwards. And this just by the way.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:17:25] can do it at the end of your five year course. Yeah, exactly. So before or just after?

Lwai Almasri: It’s true. Yeah, exactly. [01:17:30] Um, so yeah, I don’t know. For me, it’s it [01:17:35] was just something that I never really thought about. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah. I mean, you as well. You had [01:17:40] your two years of apprenticeship for football.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah. I always knew I was going to do it. Like after [01:17:45] GCSEs. I knew I was going to have those two years for sure whether it was going to be any further. But anybody who [01:17:50] wants to take a gap year, I would never tell them no. Like, yeah, 100%. For my own personal experience, I’m two years behind [01:17:55] or I’m gonna say behind, but I’m two years. The thing is.

Payman Langroudi: Two years more mature. When you went in.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah. I think if I came [01:18:00] to uni as an 18 year old as well, it would have been completely.

Lwai Almasri: Such a child. Oh, I was 100% [01:18:05] all this.

Saif Mukadam: Like, gossip or whatnot that they just love as 18 year olds. Actually, I’m not gonna lie. I [01:18:10] did, yeah, but like, I come two years later, I have this. I’ve been in a professional environment [01:18:15] for two years. I know what it’s like for a 16 year old earning money, and it’s [01:18:20] like you have a different mindset. Yeah, I’m not saying I’m like, I’m completely mature. I deserve to be. Of [01:18:25] course not. Yeah, but, like, you know what I mean? Like, you have this different mindset compared to if you’re straight [01:18:30] out of school. Yeah. Even for me.

Lwai Almasri: I realised that I had so much growth after my first two years of uni, [01:18:35] just maturity wise. I was so immature in such a child. Yeah, in my first and second year I made plenty [01:18:40] of mistakes. Plenty. And to be honest, I’m thankful for them because I wouldn’t be [01:18:45] the person I am now if I hadn’t done them, learnt from them, reflected on them. [01:18:50] So I’m very thankful for it. But yeah, I mean you. The other benefit, of course, of taking a year [01:18:55] out is that you get to go into the new environment more mature. But I’ve always said, I think [01:19:00] because I do like both of us, even we help a lot of students with their prospective Dental students with their applications [01:19:05] and whatnot. And when they ask about taking a gap year, I’ve always said personally, I [01:19:10] mean, there’s two kinds of gap years for dentistry, though. There’s a gap year where you defer your offer. Yeah, [01:19:15] yeah. And, you know, you’re you’re guaranteed.

Payman Langroudi: Correct.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. You’re guaranteed to enter. [01:19:20] And there’s a gap year where you have to redo your ucat and personal statement. Yeah yeah yeah. That’s stress. So there’s ucat and personal [01:19:25] statement one I emphasise definitely that they have to do something with their gap year. [01:19:30] That’s relevant because your personal statement and in your interviews they’ll ask you about it and it’s a big thing. [01:19:35] But even to the people that have a deferred offer, I recommend that they have a plan [01:19:40] or something that they want to do in this gap year, because otherwise you can just find yourself just chilling at home. [01:19:45]

Payman Langroudi: Because I know the way I said it to my son was to like, sell it to us. Yeah, [01:19:50] exactly. Sell us on what you’re going to do in this year because his mom’s against it, so of [01:19:55] course.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: We’re coming. We’re coming to the end of our time. Um, [01:20:00] we tend to end with the same questions. Oh, I don’t know if you’ve if you [01:20:05] only watched the clips, you won’t know these. Um, it’s a fantasy dinner party. Three guests. Aha. [01:20:10] Dead or alive?

Lwai Almasri: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind when I say that?

Saif Mukadam: So it’s so it’s in [01:20:15] the same meal. You’ve got three people together. Or can you have them separate?

Payman Langroudi: No, the same dinner party. Okay. [01:20:20] Your dinner party. Three guests. Dead or alive. Who would you have?

Saif Mukadam: So my my [01:20:25] main one.

Payman Langroudi: It’s going to be three footballers. No no.

Saif Mukadam: No. One of the first one is definitely gonna be Ronaldo. Cristiano Ronaldo. [01:20:30] Like, from day one. Even though my Man City fan like it should be wrong. But why am I choosing [01:20:35] Ronaldo? But I’ve just always admired his mentality just the way how he goes about, you know, just [01:20:40] the.

Lwai Almasri: Hardest working in the.

Saif Mukadam: Room. Of course, like it’s admirable. It’s something you want to work towards, something I put [01:20:45] into my own, uh, you know, regime. When I was playing football, like, after training, [01:20:50] I stay late, do shots. Free kicks, dribbling, whatnot. Because [01:20:55] at the end of it, I had I had no regrets for my football because I know I put 100% [01:21:00] in for those two years. So because of Ronaldo, like he’s like [01:21:05] this mindset of you want to be the best, I need to be the best. I need to put the work in to be the best. [01:21:10] Yeah, it’s simple as like, I want to know, like how he’s done it and like just his whole lifestyle. [01:21:15] I think it’d be amazing to sit down and have a nice little meal with him. Um, [01:21:20] other two, I think. One of them, uh, Marie Curie, you [01:21:25] know, she, she invented, like, radiographs and whatnot. Invented the first portable x [01:21:30] ray, like, just the thought process and whatnot. How she went through. I think she was the first [01:21:35] female to win a Nobel Peace Prize as well. Is that right? Yeah. I’m not, I’m not. Don’t quote me on that.

Lwai Almasri: Nobel prize, [01:21:40] not peace prize.

Saif Mukadam: Nobel Prize, don’t quote me on that. But I’m pretty sure she was one like one of them. So that’s a serious, [01:21:45] serious accolade to have. And yeah, I just have a little comfort with it. Won’t be too bad. [01:21:50] And then, um. Third person. Oof! I don’t really have. You [01:21:55] know, I recently started boxing, so. Which is a bit random, but Muhammad Ali, [01:22:00] I wouldn’t mind.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah yeah yeah yeah, yeah, a little.

Saif Mukadam: Bit of a chit chat with Muhammad.

Payman Langroudi: Ali the first time Muhammad Ali’s [01:22:05] come up. Really?

Saif Mukadam: Is that a general one?

Lwai Almasri: What’s the other reasoning for Muhammad Ali that you [01:22:10] usually get?

Payman Langroudi: Well, Muhammad Ali has done so much. I mean, he he’s politically, politically, especially. [01:22:15]

Lwai Almasri: Race and religion back then.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Saif Mukadam: So he’s he’s done a lot like activists [01:22:20] and whatnot. But just in general because of the boxing that I’ve started. So I’m doing a fight very soon. Oh, really? On the [01:22:25] 1st of December and just student fight night. Yeah. Student fight night.

Payman Langroudi: Be careful man.

Saif Mukadam: No, I’m. No, I’m definitely [01:22:30] your money-makers man. The head guard or whatnot. I’m not trying to get injured. I’ve never really, like, seen [01:22:35] it, but I got challenged by one of my mates. Like I challenged you to do the boxing. Have you.

Payman Langroudi: Have you come across Doctor Daniel hitman? [01:22:40] He’s a dentist. He’s a professional boxer. I think I’ve.

Lwai Almasri: Seen him on Instagram.

Saif Mukadam: Instagram. Yeah, he’s he [01:22:45] quite. He’s got a decent following, isn’t he?

Payman Langroudi: I think so. He’s.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, he’s up there.

Saif Mukadam: I think I’ve seen him. Yeah, I think [01:22:50] I’ve seen him. Of course. Not suggesting or whatnot. Yeah. That wouldn’t be a bad person to have. How about you, [01:22:55] Roy?

Lwai Almasri: So the thing is, I wanted to say Ronaldo, but he’s taken him because [01:23:00] I’m a big boy. I’m a man United fan, so I’m a big fan of Ronaldo. But I’ll change it. Um, [01:23:05] I’d say probably Roger Federer is one of them. I played, I’ve played tennis and [01:23:10] used to play tennis a lot back in school as well. And I mean, he has a video clip. I don’t know if [01:23:15] anyone’s seen it, but it’s when he retired from tennis, he [01:23:20] went and gave a speech at a university’s graduation, and his whole speech was about. [01:23:25]

Payman Langroudi: I still miss.

Lwai Almasri: I know this. So so he’s won 80% [01:23:30] of all matches that he’s played, yet his point conversion is 54%. [01:23:35] And he’s talking about nobody is perfect yet. You can still in the [01:23:40] end have a like you’re going to make mistakes along the way. Your career at the end [01:23:45] when you look back at it, it can still be very memorable. Regardless of those mistakes. Those mistakes make [01:23:50] you a better person and don’t get caught up on your mistakes. Don’t don’t just, you know, don’t [01:23:55] let them bog you down. Because if he thought about every single point that he missed, he’s not going [01:24:00] to be able to focus on the next point that he’s got coming up. If he’s if he’s mid serve thinking about, oh shit, [01:24:05] I missed that. Uh or should have done that. You’re going to mess up the like [01:24:10] like just like you can reflect on the past but keep looking to the future [01:24:15] type thing. Yeah. Yeah I think my next person that I would say would be [01:24:20] um well Ahmed CEO of Woohp.

Payman Langroudi: 00i know him.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. You know.

Saif Mukadam: Him personally. [01:24:25] Oh you know him well.

Payman Langroudi: My wife knows his family.

Lwai Almasri: Oh very nice. Yeah he’s he’s [01:24:30] someone that he I mean both me and Saif have it. And I and I [01:24:35] convinced him to get one was well for me just as a Woohp as Woohp. In general it’s revolutionised [01:24:40] my my day to day life for uni. Whether that’s it’s alarm clock. It’s bettered my sleep, um, [01:24:45] etc.. But.

Payman Langroudi: But he’s very involved himself. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: And [01:24:50] he’s. You can tell he’s passionate about his product. He’s always put product over distribution. [01:24:55] He made his product good. And he entered a market that was so saturated. I mean, you had Apple Watches [01:25:00] and Apple Watch are a huge monopoly. The Garmin, [01:25:05] the Samsung, the aura thingy ring like that people wear. And he and he’s [01:25:10] dominating. I mean and he’s signed. I mean Ronaldo Ronaldo is a co-investor even actually [01:25:15] in the in the product. And he wouldn’t be if it wasn’t something that was actually good.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:25:20] you know how that works though. Sometimes they just give 10% of the company to. True.

Lwai Almasri: True. So [01:25:25] so there is that. But I like very much believe in what he’s done [01:25:30] in the, in that sense. And then kind of basic, I’ll probably say somebody like Jeff [01:25:35] Bezos when when he divorced from his wife, he [01:25:40] actually well, she became the sixth richest woman or something. Just off the divorce settlement. Crazy. But [01:25:45] what was really interesting to see was that he’s one of the few people that actually had a very nice [01:25:50] divorce. As nice as divorces can get, I guess. Um, but [01:25:55] in the sense of he said that she, he she earned every penny of that settlement [01:26:00] that she took. She took like $36 billion or something like that. And he said that without her [01:26:05] support, even though she didn’t directly do anything at Amazon, without her support, he [01:26:10] wouldn’t have been able to create Amazon. So it kind of shows you that. I mean, I saw it in my parents as [01:26:15] well. It kind of relates me a bit to my parents. My mom dropped out of uni, delayed everything [01:26:20] so that she could, you know, support my dad, support us and raise the kids and whatnot. [01:26:25] And, you know, she she, she put on hold her career so that she could [01:26:30] support my dad and let him thrive and do all of that and then came back to it. And, [01:26:35] I mean, thankfully, they’re not divorced and they’re still together and they love each other, obviously, thankfully. But I mean, [01:26:40] along that premise of, you know, I kind of see it in Bezos and his wife and how [01:26:45] she did that. And, you know, there’s no negative energy between them. So it’s really nice to see.

Payman Langroudi: How old are you turning? [01:26:50]

Lwai Almasri: 22 in February. So 21.

Payman Langroudi: This is for the for the fun of it. Give [01:26:55] it like a five years time. What do you think you’re going to be doing so that in five [01:27:00] years time, when I do it again with you guys from Thailand, we’ll see. We’ll [01:27:05] compare and contrast. Like, I know it’s early to decide.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, I can’t like.

Payman Langroudi: Where’s [01:27:10] your head now in five years time? What dentist will you be?

Lwai Almasri: You’ll be in your foundation.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah, yeah, [01:27:15] yeah. I’ll be in.

Payman Langroudi: Ten years time then.

Lwai Almasri: Okay. I mean, I [01:27:20] what, ten years time as well? Sure. I don’t see myself. Okay, [01:27:25] so in five years time, I would have seen myself still doing quite a lot of just in practice. [01:27:30]

Payman Langroudi: Ten years is better. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: Ten years maybe. I’ve had the best balance [01:27:35] of practice is 2 to 3 days a week of clinical practice, and then the rest working [01:27:40] on on a business. My my my my aspirations have always been I want [01:27:45] to open a Dental corporate. Oh, yeah. That’s that’s always been my my kind of what [01:27:50] I want to do. I’ve always been interested in Dental corporate because obviously I wanted to do finance [01:27:55] and econ at uni. My, my, I was very much business minded for a long time. And [01:28:00] the way my dad actually convinced me was very clever, because he knew that if he forced me into [01:28:05] dentistry, I just, I just said no and I would have still done what I wanted to [01:28:10] do. So he he showed me that actually dentistry is what’s best by [01:28:15] sending me to do work experience at a firm for two weeks where I gave up [01:28:20] after five days because of, like you said, bankers, that you’re there at seven in the morning, you don’t [01:28:25] leave until 8 p.m. at night. And I was just crunching numbers at a desk, not leaving. And [01:28:30] I hated it. I loved being practical. I love getting up and going to meetings or running [01:28:35] around the city or or or even working with my hands. I really like doing.

Payman Langroudi: Wire Dental [01:28:40] corporate y.

Lwai Almasri: I think something.

Payman Langroudi: To do with business. Okay, [01:28:45] yeah.

Lwai Almasri: But that’s not as a as as. Why not? Maybe then say open up an institute or [01:28:50] something like that as a business y a Dental corporate. Because I think dentistry in the UK is something that’s very [01:28:55] there’s not enough practices. I think the thing is, is that there’s loads of practices [01:29:00] but not enough good practices, I think. Right. If you get what I mean, without [01:29:05] trying to throw shade on a lot of practices, I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Think there’s enough good of anything. [01:29:10] Yeah, there’s not enough good. Exactly. Anything.

Lwai Almasri: Exactly. So, so I don’t think [01:29:15] there’s enough good practices where where it’s easily accessible to patients. I [01:29:20] mean, as we know, NHS dentistry is literally crumbling. So something like that [01:29:25] would be something that I’ve always kind of wanted to, to solve.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. It’s ambitious. [01:29:30]

Lwai Almasri: To say I’m going to.

Payman Langroudi: Solve it, I get it, I get it right. So but corporate sort of implies many [01:29:35] sites, doesn’t it. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: So I want to. I want to be able to do like. I don’t want to just say that because [01:29:40] also I like travelling. So I don’t want to just live in London for my whole life. I want to be able to go [01:29:45] and do something in Manchester or even abroad. International corporate, be [01:29:50] able to go abroad and travel and do things all across the world and stuff like that.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. But many sites [01:29:55] is like a much more complicated way of doing one [01:30:00] site. Yeah. Of course. So. So then do you have in your head this idea of this one site, like what is it about [01:30:05] this one site, this this brand. Yeah. That’s different to what’s out there right [01:30:10] now. Mhm. Do you have an idea.

Lwai Almasri: Of of what, what I do with that one site.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah [01:30:15] I mean like okay you’ve got, you could be a McDonald’s corporate. It could be a [01:30:20] Louis Vuitton corporate. Yeah. Yeah. What is it about your particular [01:30:25] corporate that makes it different. And it makes it better than what’s there already. That [01:30:30] thought is important. Right. Because as you start taking it to. I had someone in Hit the [01:30:35] Bupa runs. Bupa 400 practices. As you go from 1 to 2 [01:30:40] to 50 to 100, it gets way, way, way more complicated. Delivering that brand? [01:30:45] Yeah. Yeah. So there’s got to be something about it other than, you know, I just want to have this empire. [01:30:50] Yeah. Which I get as well. There is that.

Lwai Almasri: Of course. But by corporate, I don’t mean [01:30:55] anything to the scale of Bupa. I mean, it’d be nice, but I don’t [01:31:00] even personally want to open something that reaches something, because at 400, [01:31:05] I don’t think as me personally, I could have control over [01:31:10] making sure all 400 practices are up to exactly how I want to have them, [01:31:15] if that makes sense.

Payman Langroudi: I get that, I get that, but you do accept that a better man than you could pull it off? [01:31:20] Of course. Like. Because what I’m saying is there’s 400 Louis Vuitton shops all over the world.

Lwai Almasri: 100%. [01:31:25]

Payman Langroudi: They’re all doing what? Louis Vuitton shops do. Yeah. You know. So. But go on. I mean, [01:31:30] look, that’s the reason why it makes sense to have one perfect practice. Which [01:31:35] is nothing wrong with that either, right? Of course. Beautiful thing in itself.

Lwai Almasri: And the point is, is that you will always start [01:31:40] with that, hopefully one. So that’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Reason why I asked you about, you know, why corporate. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: Because [01:31:45] for me I want to like I said, I love the travelling aspect and I want to be able to make it accessible. And [01:31:50] so to be accessible by definition, you need to be able to be in all quite.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult when both your mom and your [01:31:55] dad are dentists, in a way, you’ve got to do something even more spectacular than what they did.

Lwai Almasri: I’ve always [01:32:00] said because my dad, he’s I have nothing [01:32:05] but admiration and respect, and for what he’s done and he’s he’s smashed it essentially. [01:32:10] And I look up to him as a mentor and as a father figure, of course, [01:32:15] and stuff like that. So, I mean, it is tough because a lot of people do say this to me [01:32:20] is like, are you not trying to, like, then beat? It’s not that I don’t think I will, it’s just that I’ve [01:32:25] never thought of it as competing with what he does because even my dad, like a lot of everything that he set up, he [01:32:30] set it up to for for us to then take over. And, you know, my oldest sister is doing medicine. [01:32:35] My little sister wants to do dentistry. So, like, he’s kind of done it in that sense where [01:32:40] take over from him, which is why I always want to do my want to be able to do my own thing, because I don’t want [01:32:45] to be just known as the person that took over from his dad. I want to have I want to have achieved something [01:32:50] like from my own, you know, cause and my dad was never the type of person like he did [01:32:55] clinical dentistry, but he was. My dad loves academic dentistry and he loves teaching and he loves learning. [01:33:00] And he did a PhD, an MSC, uh, an MBA. [01:33:05] So like.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: So my dad loves studying and even now he takes [01:33:10] the definition of CPD very seriously. He continues to.

Payman Langroudi: Did he do his undergrad in Syria? [01:33:15]

Lwai Almasri: He did do his undergrad in Syria. And he did he.

Payman Langroudi: Like getting through into [01:33:20] dental school in countries like that and out of dental school. So actually super competitive Syria. [01:33:25]

Lwai Almasri: The way that their A-level system works is actually you sit the exams and then based on what you get, you [01:33:30] apply to what you can.

Payman Langroudi: Apply.

Lwai Almasri: The exam was out of like I probably am very wrong, but just [01:33:35] to say as figure because the the ratio still works the same. Say the exam [01:33:40] totally your A-levels across all subjects. Bear in mind they do. They don’t do three. They do everything [01:33:45] for A-levels. They have to do everything. They do English, French and then they do maths, physics, [01:33:50] biology. They have to do everything. Say it’s out of 350 to get into [01:33:55] medical school and dental school, which are the two hardest things to get into. You have to get like 300 [01:34:00] and 49.5 out of 350 to get in.

Payman Langroudi: It’s even I’d say [01:34:05] it’s way more, way, way more competitive than getting in here.

Lwai Almasri: Oh, 100%, 100%. I’ve got cousins [01:34:10] that are still there that she got in and she got in by like a quarter of a mark, like [01:34:15] like in that ratio. It was like 349.75 [01:34:20] out of 350. Like she dropped a quarter of a mark. That means across every crazy [01:34:25] when you think of it, it’s so competitive. So yeah, he did his undergrad there and then he did [01:34:30] more here at Queen Mary’s UCL and whatnot.

Saif Mukadam: So [01:34:35] we don’t want to see myself in ten years.

Payman Langroudi: Ten years what? Like what?

Saif Mukadam: Hopefully still playing football. [01:34:40] No, no, no. I’m joking. Um, so I’ve got my big sister. She’s a she’s [01:34:45] a dentist as well. So hopefully, like, in ten years time I want to work with her family.

Payman Langroudi: Business [01:34:50] like.

Saif Mukadam: That. Yeah. Because I’ve always I’ve been in a family business, like printing and whatnot. [01:34:55] So I see the positives in a family business. But there’s also dark times in a family business [01:35:00] as well. Like, of course when things get really, it’s like in the thick of it, like, yeah, it [01:35:05] can get really dark. And yeah, so I can see like the negatives of that too. But [01:35:10] the thought of, you know, working alongside my sister in the dental practice or whatnot, [01:35:15] my sister, my other sister, I’ve got another sister. Maybe she can be like, um, some kind of [01:35:20] individual within the practice manager or something where I can get, like a proper family [01:35:25] business going, their to practice and whatnot. I think that for me was what.

Payman Langroudi: Inspires. [01:35:30]

Saif Mukadam: You? It’s what it’s what I want to work towards because I did my work experience with my sister and like, [01:35:35] just like shadowing her, seeing how she’s doing what her daily life is like. It’s just like amazing [01:35:40] because you get to stay in their lives as well, because a lot of sibling relationships will, you [01:35:45] know, they’ll go down their own path. And, you know, there’s nothing wrong with that at all. But like, you know, they.

Lwai Almasri: Get married, they [01:35:50] have kids.

Saif Mukadam: They do their own thing. But if there’s a way to, like, bring us back together and keep us together, like going the [01:35:55] long term would be absolutely amazing to have.

Payman Langroudi: I started this company with my best friends from [01:36:00] from university, and it’s a it’s a wonderful thing that we stay [01:36:05] in touch with each other now.

Lwai Almasri: Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I was going to add that hopefully also in ten years we’re continuing [01:36:10] UK Dental students or whatever it could be called in ten years time. Yeah. But [01:36:15] um, yeah, hopefully that there’s no.

Saif Mukadam: Like I working alongside someone and succeeding [01:36:20] with someone else I think is a lot. It’s a much better feeling than just doing it on your own 100% [01:36:25] like you can.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not only the feeling, dude. It’s also that you’re not good at everything.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah, [01:36:30] true. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like you’re saying, your sister. Maybe your sister is amazing at raising cash. Yeah. Yeah. [01:36:35] Like, for the corporate idea, someone needs to know how to raise money. Of course. Yeah. Like, you talk [01:36:40] to anyone who’s got a corporate. That’s one of the biggest issues. And maybe you’re amazing at clinical. [01:36:45] Yeah. So you become clinical director. She becomes finance director. Yeah. You know those [01:36:50] complementary skills? Super, super super important.

Lwai Almasri: 100%. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Guys, [01:36:55] it’s been a massive pleasure. So if someone wants to become a member, what do they do?

Lwai Almasri: They just find us [01:37:00] on Instagram and then search UK dental students on Instagram. And then in the link in the bio, [01:37:05] there’s a link to join the WhatsApp group. I mean, give us a follow on Instagram of course, but join the WhatsApp group [01:37:10] for UK.

Payman Langroudi: Dentistry is the name of the Instagram page.

Lwai Almasri: Uk dental student.

Payman Langroudi: Dental. Student. Sorry. Dental. Uk dentistry. Yeah. [01:37:15] Um, and then they can just go through the link, the WhatsApp link in the bio.

Lwai Almasri: It’s [01:37:20] just a link in the bio. You click, it sends you straight to WhatsApp and you can join.

Saif Mukadam: You join it. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Lwai Almasri: Nice and easy. [01:37:25]

Payman Langroudi: So I look forward to the event as well. Thank you very.

Lwai Almasri: Much. Hope to see you there. Yeah, of.

Payman Langroudi: Course I’ll [01:37:30] do my best. We haven’t got date here.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. No, no date yet, but we’ll drop you a message. Of course, when we do. Cool. [01:37:35]

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much, guys. No. Thank you. My pleasure.

Lwai Almasri: Thank you very much. Thank you.

[VOICE]: This [01:37:40] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get [01:37:45] to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:37:50] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [01:37:55]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole [01:38:00] thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening [01:38:05] to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out [01:38:10] of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if [01:38:15] you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so [01:38:20] much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is mind movers [00:00:10] moving the conversation forward on mental health and [00:00:15] optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:00:20] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Hey [00:00:25] everyone, welcome to another episode of Mind Movers. As always, I try to bring some of the most interesting, [00:00:30] eclectic guests to you to share stories of inspiration and most [00:00:35] importantly, try to understand how these people overcame adversity. I think it’s so important [00:00:40] that we understand people’s stories, what makes them who they are. Before we [00:00:45] jump to the conclusion that it’s luck and I’ve got one of my amazing patients and an [00:00:50] incredible content creator makeup artist, Boss Woman also has her own [00:00:55] podcast, so we’ve got Adiola Boga. She’s a seasoned makeup artist, A beauty expert [00:01:00] with over a decade in the industry experience. Having collaborated with prominent beauty [00:01:05] brands, she is renowned for her skin first philosophy, emphasising the crucial role of [00:01:10] exceptional skincare in achieving flawless makeup. Through her online tutorials, she [00:01:15] shares her coveted glow techniques, fostering a devoted community of followers known as [00:01:20] glow getters. With a commitment to enhancing beauty through education, Adeola is [00:01:25] a beacon of radiant inspiration in the makeup world. So welcome! [00:01:30]

Adeola Gboyega: Thank you for having me.

Rhona Eskander: It’s so fantastic to have you. So Adeola, [00:01:35] I like to start from the beginning. Tell us, are you actually a London girl? [00:01:40]

Adeola Gboyega: No, I’m not actually. So I used to live in London. That’s like where I started, but I actually [00:01:45] live outside of London, in Hertfordshire. Now when I say Hertfordshire, everyone’s like, oh, where? Because it’s such a big area. [00:01:50] Um, so I actually live in Cheshunt. Um, but I used to live in north London, [00:01:55] so that’s kind of where I started. Um, And then we moved out of London and then kind of slowly [00:02:00] edging back in. So yeah, I love that.

Rhona Eskander: And tell us a little bit about your childhood. Yeah. [00:02:05]

Adeola Gboyega: So my mum’s a single mum. She raised my sister and I and obviously [00:02:10] like, you know, there’s been difficult aspects of my childhood and it’s not always been easy. [00:02:15] But one thing that was always, you know, at the forefront was just seeing my mum work really, really hard. [00:02:20] And she’s a teacher herself, but she’s retired now and she was always the one [00:02:25] that, you know, advised me that whatever you do, just be passionate about it. And I think because she’s a mum [00:02:30] now, I’m Nigerian and she saw what it was like when you had like parents that made you [00:02:35] do certain careers that you weren’t happy and passionate about, i.e. becoming a doctor or a lawyer. You [00:02:40] know, being Nigerian and being African, you’re kind of told and expected to kind of do certain jobs. [00:02:45] And I think my mum saw the kind of opposite side of that where, you know, people were working [00:02:50] in jobs that they weren’t happy about. So she always said, you know, I don’t mind what you do, just be happy. And [00:02:55] that’s kind of like where it all started. But she was honestly somebody that I really looked up to, and I [00:03:00] just realised that whatever I do, I know that I need to work hard to be successful.

Rhona Eskander: So obviously [00:03:05] I come from a middle eastern background. I’ve got lots of Nigerian friends, and one of the big common things [00:03:10] that we had in common is the onus on education. So you just said that your mum [00:03:15] just wanted you to kind of be happy and make sure that you work hard. Did that mean that she was okay, [00:03:20] for example, with you not being in a career that was vocational or something [00:03:25] that would have definite security?

Adeola Gboyega: Yeah, I think for me there was always [00:03:30] different things I wanted to do. At one point I wanted to be a paediatrician, and then I did work experience working in a hospital. [00:03:35] And then I realised I’m way too emotional for this. I could never do it. And especially in a role [00:03:40] like that, you have to kind of like go in and do your job and then not bring it home. And but I’m very [00:03:45] much a person that’s very empathetic and I care about people and I always want to kind of support them. And I think [00:03:50] for me, I couldn’t have like gone into a job like that. And then at one point I wanted to be [00:03:55] a TV presenter. There were so many different things that I wanted to do. But she always made me realise [00:04:00] that, you know, just do your schoolwork, get your education, go to university. That was her only thing that I [00:04:05] had to go to university. And then I studied media and communications because I wasn’t really sure exactly what I wanted [00:04:10] to do, but I knew that I wanted to work in, you know, media, magazine, print. And also I loved [00:04:15] beauty. And so I actually did my career or my sort of like, course thinking [00:04:20] I was going to like, you know, work in glossy magazines such as Vogue. And then that didn’t really happen for me. [00:04:25] Like my degree was very different for what I expected. And but I did my degree, [00:04:30] I got a tutu and I felt like I made my mum happy. But then after that, I then thought, do you know what [00:04:35] I have to do? What makes me happy? And that’s when I then retrained as a makeup artist.

Rhona Eskander: So [00:04:40] you know what’s interesting? I mean, excuse me for asking this. You should never ask a lady how old [00:04:45] she is, but are you a millennial?

Adeola Gboyega: I think I am, yeah. Yeah. When were you? 35. I’m 35, [00:04:50] so I think I’m a millennial. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So growing up, what I really remember [00:04:55] as being so prominent is beauty standards that were really unattainable for women like [00:05:00] you and I. And the reason why I say that is because there were front covers of Kate Moss and [00:05:05] skinny white women, and I remember going to university and a lot of people [00:05:10] being perplexed when I used to get asked for modelling or asked to go to castings because [00:05:15] I didn’t fit that certain type of beauty standard. I found that really, really hard [00:05:20] growing up, and for me, that deterred me from the beauty industry. It didn’t necessarily [00:05:25] want me to go into it because I just thought, I’m different. I’m not considered beautiful, so [00:05:30] why would I go into something like that? What’s your experience of that, [00:05:35] and what was your experience of black beauty and, you know, feeling inspired to go into the beauty industry. [00:05:40]

Adeola Gboyega: So I didn’t again, like see a lot of examples of, you know, um, [00:05:45] black women working in the beauty industry. And if I did see anyone, it was someone that I felt was very [00:05:50] far removed. So I know we were talking earlier about Pat McGrath. You know, she’s a successful black makeup artist, [00:05:55] probably the most influential black makeup artist in the world. But unless you’re in [00:06:00] that area and in that industry, you wouldn’t really know that who she was. And that’s why I think [00:06:05] I struggled and kind of felt found it quite difficult to kind of go into my career and went into my career quite late. [00:06:10] Um, so it wasn’t until after I did my degree that I actually then retrained as a makeup artist. And probably [00:06:15] because of that and why I think it’s so important to have representation, because maybe if I’d seen other [00:06:20] makeup artists or was in the midst of others that I felt really inspired by, I would have felt that I could [00:06:25] have gone into that career a lot earlier.

Payman Langroudi: Um, we get that in dentistry too. So I [00:06:30] had Yewande here and she was saying she never considered being a dentist until she saw [00:06:35] Uchenna. Yeah. Do you know Uchenna? Okay.

Rhona Eskander: Was it Uchenna.

Payman Langroudi: That inspired on the TV and saw [00:06:40] that someone who looks like her could be a successful dentist?

Adeola Gboyega: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what she went through. But [00:06:45] the when you say a black makeup artist, is it necessarily that a black make up artist [00:06:50] knows about black skin, or is that not necessarily the case?

Adeola Gboyega: I mean, I feel like as a makeup artist, the [00:06:55] key strength should be that you should be able to do every skin tone just depending on who you are and [00:07:00] what your skin type is and what your skin tone is. But unfortunately, it isn’t that case, you know, [00:07:05] and I think even when I trained as a makeup artist and I would go to school, it was literally like a small [00:07:10] like segment of our sort of syllabus was being taught about black skin. And I feel like that is again [00:07:15] the downfall of like the education and teaching in terms of like not giving us like, you know, [00:07:20] a long sort of like time and a slot to kind of understand, like skin tones, complexions and the complexities [00:07:25] of it. Um, and so again, I think it’s so, so important to have that representation [00:07:30] because to your point, it was only for me being able to be in the midst of those industries and see [00:07:35] later on in life, I thought, actually, I could do this. I didn’t feel like I could before. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Was your mum [00:07:40] strict? Nonetheless, Nigerian mums and dads tend to be. Or [00:07:45] was she not? Was she out of the box in that sense.

Adeola Gboyega: She was strict, and I did have a strict upbringing, [00:07:50] but I think it’s because we went through a lot and I felt like she had to be very protective of me. So, for example, I didn’t [00:07:55] have my dad actively in my life like looking after me. So again, there was a lot of like her making [00:08:00] sure that I was looked after on her part because I didn’t have a dad or a father figure around that could [00:08:05] support me in that sense. And so, yeah, in some elements she was, but at the same time, she was very [00:08:10] open in terms of like, if I feel like there’s a certain career that I wanted to go for. Yeah, go and explore it and see how you feel. [00:08:15]

Payman Langroudi: Because in the community, when you tell someone, I’m in beauty. Yeah. Is there still [00:08:20] stigma? Do they still sort of because.

Rhona Eskander: You know, like the the thing that my parents are so [00:08:25] proud of is, um, when you say you’re going to be a doctor and I’m sure that’s like in the Iranian, you know, like, my [00:08:30] son’s a doctor, my daughter’s a doctor, you know, they love that. And it’s very hard to deter [00:08:35] away from that. And it’s almost like above all in life, but they’re a doctor. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:08:40] someone I know fell in love with a dancer. Yeah. And she was. She was a fantastic, like, modern [00:08:45] dancer used to go all over the world like dancing, touring. And, uh, her parents said, what do you mean? You’re [00:08:50] going to marry a dancer? Yeah.

Adeola Gboyega: Like social media has changed that because I think now. Because [00:08:55] now people.

Rhona Eskander: Are gonna be like, I’ve fallen in love with a YouTuber. Do you know what I mean? Like, watch out. Your kids [00:09:00] might come home and be like, dad, I’ve fallen in love with, like, a TikToker. Do you know what I mean?

Adeola Gboyega: You know, like, I feel like that is [00:09:05] like when you ask kids, now, what do you want to be when you grow up? Before it might have been, I want to be a doctor. I want to be this [00:09:10] and that. Yeah. Now it’s like I want to be a content creator.

Payman Langroudi: The new president of Romania that has [00:09:15] just become, or just about to become the president of Romania, did not exist in the political scene until [00:09:20] six months ago. And then he did a TikTok only campaign. Only on TikTok, nowhere [00:09:25] else. And he’s about to become president of Romania. Yeah, this Trump character is right winger.

Adeola Gboyega: And [00:09:30] this is literally like the power of social media and how it just changed everything. And, you know, the question that you asked me [00:09:35] earlier about is there like a stigma? I think back in the day. So I started my in the industry in about 2012, [00:09:40] and obviously I didn’t have social media then. It wasn’t like a big thing. But [00:09:45] I would obviously like get a few comments, like, I’ve gone to university and I’ve done media and communications [00:09:50] and now I want to go and become a makeup artist, kind of like, oh, where’s that come from? But then now it’s like, you [00:09:55] know, everyone refers to me, oh, Adeola, you know, I know her, but she’s on, you know, social media. So it’s definitely [00:10:00] changed now because of social media. Absolutely.

Rhona Eskander: I want to reflect [00:10:05] and rewind a little bit now because you said representation is really important. Um, [00:10:10] I had a conversation with a guy that I met on Sunday. [00:10:15] Uh, he was um, from I think he was half Chinese, half [00:10:20] Jamaican. Um, and he was saying openly, you know, he’s the one that brought up the conversation [00:10:25] that he thought that Black Lives Matter wasn’t necessarily something [00:10:30] that was helpful to the community [00:10:35] or to his representation. And I thought that was an interesting stance. And it’s always important to hear [00:10:40] other people’s stance, because from my perspective, I was so happy that that had happened. Obviously not the events, [00:10:45] but the representation, because all of a sudden I was seeing black people at the forefront [00:10:50] in fashion, beauty, other industries, and that made me really proud and really happy. And [00:10:55] I thought for all those years of oppression, you know, you can never undo what had been done. [00:11:00] But, you know, they deserve to have the limelight. They deserve [00:11:05] to have the opportunities. I want to ask you how you felt about that whole movement, [00:11:10] and whether you think it was a good thing or a bad thing, and how it affected the beauty industry in [00:11:15] particular.

Adeola Gboyega: I think it was a moment that kind of stood still for a lot of people, [00:11:20] because when you think about when it happened, it was during lockdown and I, you know, really remember [00:11:25] that time because it was just it was just such a [00:11:30] crazy time at the at the time when it all happened. I think this is why it’s [00:11:35] important to take everybody’s individual experiences into consideration, because obviously Black Lives Matter as a movement [00:11:40] is so important, and it did highlight a lot of things. But again, like each individual [00:11:45] person’s experience is different. So that person’s experience was kind of like I found it quite negative. I didn’t love it [00:11:50] and it was a very negative time, especially for black people, because again, the highlight is on you [00:11:55] and then people are coming to you for answers. So I remembered a lot of my friends that weren’t black were [00:12:00] like messaging me, being like, oh, you know, was there ever a time that I maybe did something wrong or, you [00:12:05] know, is there anything that I could have done differently? And there was a lot of pressure for me to kind of feel like I could give them [00:12:10] some sort of like, relief, because they obviously felt guilty about a lot of things that they were going through. [00:12:15] But it was good because it highlighted a lot of things. For example, you know, even to this day [00:12:20] as a black woman, makeup artist, content creator, I don’t get paid nearly enough as [00:12:25] what my white counterparts do.

Rhona Eskander: So there’s still a pay gap.

Adeola Gboyega: Even to this day, and [00:12:30] to the point where Black Lives Matter was an amazing, you know, situation because it highlighted a lot of things. [00:12:35] But even now, I still feel like the change that, you know, people say has been made or it kind [00:12:40] of like highlighted, it’s still going back. If anything, I don’t know if it even did actually change. [00:12:45] Really. 100%. Absolutely. That’s so.

Rhona Eskander: Interesting. Yeah, I think [00:12:50] I had heard as well that there was still a pay gap issue. But why do you think that is? And why do you think [00:12:55] that.

Payman Langroudi: Companies the size of the market isn’t as big?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, the size.

Adeola Gboyega: Of the market isn’t that big. [00:13:00] Um, unfortunately, I feel like a lot of companies and brands don’t see value in, [00:13:05] you know, black content creators, black makeup artists. And I think a lot of the time people [00:13:10] feel like they’re paying for, you know, for example. Okay, well, I know that [00:13:15] it’s it’s it’s good to be seen that I’m supporting and paying a black content creator, [00:13:20] but they’re still going to pay you less than, for example, a white content creator, because they feel like they’re just [00:13:25] ticking a box and it’s something that they have to do, but they still don’t see the value. And when someone doesn’t see the value in something, [00:13:30] their actions aren’t going to change. They’re going to do it because they feel like they have to. But when you ask them at [00:13:35] the core, like, do you feel like they got paid better or the right amount? They’re probably [00:13:40] going to agree and be like, actually, no, because they would have paid another content creator that’s done exactly the same job and can pay [00:13:45] campaign that I’ve done. And the fee that they got was marginally more than what I would [00:13:50] have got paid. But at least they’re going to be like, but at least we’ve given our money, or at least we’ve paid that person. [00:13:55]

Rhona Eskander: Do you challenge the brands on that?

Adeola Gboyega: Yes and no. Because obviously there’s a [00:14:00] part of me that’s kind of like, well, at least I’m getting paid. When you’re self-employed and you’re working for yourself, there’s obviously a responsibility [00:14:05] that you have to obviously make money. Um, but then I also I do my due diligence. [00:14:10] I have some amazing friends in the industry. Um, you know, someone like Lisa Potter Dixon, who I love dearly. [00:14:15] You know, she really supported and helped me when I was coming in the industry. And we have open conversations about [00:14:20] money and finances. And I think that’s a very important thing, because when people don’t talk [00:14:25] about things, how are you meant to know? When I came into the industry, I wasn’t having conversations about pay, so [00:14:30] I was getting paid thinking, actually, I think I’m doing okay. But it was only when I started speaking to other people [00:14:35] that don’t look like me and actually seeing like, the massive pay gap, that’s when I was able [00:14:40] to kind of be like, actually, I can fight my corner now and I have a leg to stand on and have a conversation because I [00:14:45] know what other people are getting paid. But do you.

Payman Langroudi: Do you worry that, like on the other side of it, that sort of the [00:14:50] tokenism of it?

Adeola Gboyega: Absolutely. And it still happens. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The people are including [00:14:55] you because they kind of have to from the and it still happens.

Adeola Gboyega: And there’s, you know, there’s a good and bad [00:15:00] part about it. You know, I want to show up for things because I think it’s important for people to see that I’m in those [00:15:05] spaces. But at the same time, I also got to think, well, actually, is it [00:15:10] actually helping me by being in those spaces if I don’t feel like it’s genuine? And so I won’t work with a brand [00:15:15] that’s not genuine. You know, I will go onto their page and see, have they worked with any other black and Asian [00:15:20] content creators or anyone that you know isn’t just a white person? Because I think it’s important that [00:15:25] you’re not just working with me, but are you going to be working with others throughout the line? Is it going to be consistent? Consistency [00:15:30] is key.

Payman Langroudi: And have you got access to. When I say access, do you are [00:15:35] you paying attention to the culture, the pop culture in Africa? [00:15:40] And I mean, Nigeria has got some massive music acts now. So like you’d imagine that’s [00:15:45] where there’d be beauty brands popping out of as well. Yeah, there’s.

Adeola Gboyega: A huge, huge business. I [00:15:50] went to Nigeria about two years ago now, and there’s a lady called Erica [00:15:55] Freemantle who has a platform called Airtel, and it’s basically embracing [00:16:00] all tones of women. And she actually did a, um, sort [00:16:05] of thing where she kind of invited loads of different people from the beauty industry, dentists, [00:16:10] and we all actually went to Nigeria and actually went to kind of see what businesses like out there. [00:16:15] It’s booming like it’s huge. You know, there’s a lot of people that have a lot of money. Obviously [00:16:20] there’s a lot of, you know, and.

Rhona Eskander: Nollywood is huge.

Adeola Gboyega: Yeah, Nollywood is huge.

Rhona Eskander: Nollywood is so [00:16:25] there’s Hollywood, Bollywood, Nollywood. Oh really. Yeah. And Nollywood. So when I went to Nigeria, one of my best friends [00:16:30] Ceci. Her twin sister is a Nollywood actress. Wow. Um. And [00:16:35] I was like, opened up to this completely different world. But like Nollywood is absolutely huge, massive, [00:16:40] huge. It’s, you know, really, really big. And the beauty.

Adeola Gboyega: Industry is huge over there as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Does anything [00:16:45] manage to jump over and come into Europe from there?

Adeola Gboyega: I wouldn’t say you should be that person, [00:16:50] but I think the other way round is then there’s a lot of people that are actually like leaving the UK and going back home because they [00:16:55] see that there’s massive opportunities out there, and I even saw that myself. Yeah, yeah. But again, it’s a lot about who, you [00:17:00] know, it’s very important to have good relationships and very like strong relationships out there because, you know, [00:17:05] you can go to Nigeria and make really serious money overnight if you know the right people and make [00:17:10] the right connections. Absolutely.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, 100%. I mean, Nigeria fascinated me as well because [00:17:15] I actually went thinking it was going to be this like beautiful, untouched, like Haven. [00:17:20] And I was really disappointed because what was very stark to me was the amount [00:17:25] of corruption there was in the country. And they don’t look after their people. They don’t look after the country. [00:17:30] There was mounds of rubbish everywhere. And I was like, hang on a second. And then you go into these like incredibly [00:17:35] beautiful homes, you know, that are done up and you can really see that the government’s intentions [00:17:40] aren’t really with the people. So it was quite an interesting thing for me to see from a cultural point of view. [00:17:45] Yeah. Um, but no, I’m really, really fascinated [00:17:50] by what you’re saying. And I do think representation really matters. Dentistry is a funny [00:17:55] one, isn’t it? Because white people are like a minority in dentistry. You know, you get barely [00:18:00] any white people, so the majority would be Asian. And then like, there’s a lot of Iranians [00:18:05] and some Middle Easterns as well. Very few white people and very few [00:18:10] black people. And I think, you know, there’s also like medical societies now for that representation [00:18:15] for black doctors and dentists, which I think is super important as well. And I feel really passionate [00:18:20] about that. Obviously, you know, being a middle eastern woman, it’s really different. But [00:18:25] I remember like the bullying I got during university for being Middle Eastern [00:18:30] or even, you know, being labelled as like coming from a terrorist country or my parents, [00:18:35] you know, certain, um, prejudices against my parents. Like it was really tough for me. [00:18:40] And so for me, I’m like, yeah, you know, this stuff really matters. And I guess I’ve been a little [00:18:45] bubble because when I was seeing that representation come through, I was like, this is great. Things are [00:18:50] changing and I think things have changed, but more needs to be done. What do you think could be [00:18:55] done more?

Adeola Gboyega: Again, I think just valuing the [00:19:00] valuing the kind of content creators, the makeup artists and what they actually [00:19:05] kind of bring to the table. Um, you know, for me, I’ve really wanted to kind of give back and [00:19:10] kind of make sure that when I’m in those spaces, what can I do to kind of help the next generation? Because [00:19:15] I didn’t really have that when I was first starting. It was very much, what could I do to prove that I need to be here? [00:19:20] I didn’t really have anyone to kind of support me when I first wanted to become a makeup artist. [00:19:25] And so now it’s like, well, what can I do to kind of support anyone that’s up and coming? So I remember like for example, when [00:19:30] the Black Lives Matter movement happened, I didn’t really want to have a lot of conversations about what was going on [00:19:35] and kind of like have negative conversations. So I just said, look, if anyone’s in the industry that, you know, wants [00:19:40] to go into beauty and, you know, are from like, you know, black and ethnic minorities, [00:19:45] we can have like a one hour zoom session and I can kind of help you and support you because I just felt like, let [00:19:50] me focus my energy into the areas that are more important and where can I support? Because I think [00:19:55] that’s a really, really important thing. I don’t want to be having conversations about, woe is me. I’m not getting opportunities. [00:20:00] Yeah, victim. You know, I don’t want to be in that victim mentality. There’s so many things that have happened in my life [00:20:05] that people won’t even know about. If I kind of was in that victim mentality and mindset, [00:20:10] I’m always like, okay, well, this has happened. What can I do to kind of make it better? Um, and [00:20:15] so I think that’s a really important thing. But again, I think in the industry there needs to be more value placed on [00:20:20] black creators, on black people and what they’ve actually essentially brought to the table and how it’s so important [00:20:25] to the industry.

Rhona Eskander: So what kind of things have you overcome in your [00:20:30] childhood teenage hood that have built up your resilience?

Adeola Gboyega: So for me, my [00:20:35] mental health was something that I very much struggled with, but I didn’t realise how badly until I got a lot older. [00:20:40] And so, like we were having this conversation earlier about how I really suffered with high functioning [00:20:45] depression. So I’ve always been someone that’s very much into like working hard [00:20:50] and it’s worked in my favour. I’ve had some amazing opportunities that have arisen from it. [00:20:55] But then when, for example, things didn’t really work out in my, you know, career [00:21:00] and I was having a very difficult time and I wasn’t really kind of getting the sort of, um, [00:21:05] not necessarily like the payback, but when I wasn’t really getting the kind of experiences that I wanted [00:21:10] or felt like I deserved, I really, really suffered with my mental health because for me, it was always like, well, if I [00:21:15] give 110% in my career, I’m going to get X amount back. But it doesn’t always work that way. So [00:21:20] I had to really understand and unlearn that my value isn’t placed in like me achieving [00:21:25] things. So I was always like high achiever. Amazing opportunities. Opportunities always keep busy [00:21:30] and I’m always going to be happy. But then I would have those things and I was still chasing that happiness, [00:21:35] that quote unquote happiness that I was expecting. And it didn’t always happen that way. And so I had to really [00:21:40] unlearn that and then obviously go to therapy to kind of really help myself in that space.

Rhona Eskander: How old were you when you started therapy? [00:21:45]

Adeola Gboyega: So I had an initial, um, round of therapy when I went to my doctor’s [00:21:50] one time and I was like, I’m really struggling with my mental health. I think I was about [00:21:55] mid 20s. Um, and then obviously with that it was great. But [00:22:00] then you only get a certain amount. So there’s obviously struggling with.

Payman Langroudi: Your mental health. Just talk [00:22:05] me through it. What does that actually mean with panic attacks or.

Adeola Gboyega: No. Constantly crying. [00:22:10] Constantly crying. Yeah. Constantly crying like any little thing I would cry. Triggered. Triggered. [00:22:15] Yeah. Um, what else would it be? Always working, constantly [00:22:20] working. Like for me it was like work, work, work, work, work.

Payman Langroudi: And then if you stopped working, you’d get [00:22:25] sad. Yeah.

Adeola Gboyega: So for example, lockdown. Yeah. I’d never experienced being at home for that amount of time. Every [00:22:30] job that I’ve had would be me travelling constantly. Um, so for example, when I was working at Bobbi Brown, [00:22:35] I was a pro makeup artist, so I would literally get a calendar and it would say, [00:22:40] you’ll be in this city tomorrow, you’ll be in Manchester tomorrow, you’ll be in Birmingham the next day. I was hardly ever [00:22:45] at home. And then when I worked for Pat McGrath, it was the same thing. I think I probably travelled to over like ten, [00:22:50] 15 countries in one year. Um, constantly on the go. Do you feel.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t also enjoy [00:22:55] the bits you should have enjoyed? You were like.

Adeola Gboyega: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Like the in like watching yourself [00:23:00] from above or something.

Adeola Gboyega: So like outside, everyone would look at me and be like, oh my God, I do always have this, like glamorous [00:23:05] experience. Like you’re travelling constantly, but then I’m coming home and I’m literally like [00:23:10] crying. Crying, like upset all the time. Wasn’t enjoying things. And it just got to the point [00:23:15] where I just felt like even my job, which is the thing that used to bring me so much joy, wasn’t making me happy [00:23:20] anymore. Um, and.

Payman Langroudi: Was it just talking that helped? Or did you take medication? [00:23:25] Yeah.

Adeola Gboyega: So I was prescribed antidepressants, but then I decided against it because [00:23:30] I think, again, there was a stigma where I felt like if I then start taking medication and then I become [00:23:35] dependent on it, then there’s the fear of that. If that stops working, what’s going to be next?

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:23:40] but therapy itself helped a lot. It did.

Adeola Gboyega: Yeah. Because one thing I have to, you know, explain [00:23:45] with therapy is that it’s an ongoing thing. And I’m even thinking about going back again. I think people think that, oh, it’s [00:23:50] like a band aid that you go to therapy for ten years.

Rhona Eskander: I’m still going. I’m still going. Literally. Yeah. [00:23:55]

Adeola Gboyega: And I tell people all the time, it is a journey because you go through different stages of life. For example, [00:24:00] how I function with my depression now is very different to how I functioned with my depression five [00:24:05] years ago. You know, I could meet someone tomorrow and be married or have children. [00:24:10] How am I then going to cope with that? And so I have to kind of think about myself in different facets and how my life [00:24:15] changes and how my mental health is going to change. And so I might need to go back in and be in and out [00:24:20] of therapy to be able to kind of deal with that.

Payman Langroudi: And then what happens? The therapist talks to you and then [00:24:25] you go in the end. Does he say, does it become a in your childhood being scared thing?

Adeola Gboyega: Yeah, [00:24:30] I think.

Payman Langroudi: It gets to a point.

Adeola Gboyega: Where you then start to feel like, okay, I’ve outgrown the conversations [00:24:35] that we’re having, and I kind of feel like I’m in a good space, but then it doesn’t mean that that door is closed and [00:24:40] you can never go back again. It might even be as well that you might go to a different therapist, because they might specialise [00:24:45] in a certain thing. So for me, it might have been, for example, childhood trauma. And so I kind of [00:24:50] like worked with a therapist that really worked with that. And then next time it could just be about, okay, anxiety [00:24:55] or depression and how I’m kind of navigating life as an adult now. So again, it’s very important to kind [00:25:00] of like go to see someone that specialises in whatever it is that you’re dealing with at that time.

Rhona Eskander: I think also like, [00:25:05] look, my partner gives me a bit of a hard time because he’s like, you do so much therapy and coaching, [00:25:10] but like, what’s the point in just doing this copious amounts if you don’t have like boundless changes. And [00:25:15] I’m like, but that’s not the whole point. Because boundless like boundless change. Like you should have, like you [00:25:20] should big changes, you know, like in what you’re doing. But I’m like, that’s not really how [00:25:25] therapy works, because the therapist also has to work out things. They cannot tell you what to [00:25:30] do or how to behave. You have to sort of change your pattern of thinking. They [00:25:35] can challenge you depending on the type of therapy that you’re having. And it’s like that slow change [00:25:40] in thought patterns that can then change the behaviour.

Payman Langroudi: Do you want to talk about [00:25:45] what happens to you? I mean, yeah, she says she cries. So what happens to you?

Rhona Eskander: So what happened [00:25:50] was I first went to a therapist when I was.

Payman Langroudi: Like, what happens to you when you’re down? Like, so she cries.

Rhona Eskander: Um, [00:25:55] so what happens when I experience sense of [00:26:00] I tend to go in serious fight or flight mode. And what I recognised [00:26:05] is, is that my threat is emotional. [00:26:10] So when my threat is emotional, I go into a state of panic, and [00:26:15] I would say that a number of things can happen to me, like I can get shortness of breath, [00:26:20] but it’s also about catastrophic, like catastrophizing. Yeah, the [00:26:25] thought process. So like the emotional thing makes me feel like I’m going to die. Like, so, for example, [00:26:30] if I’ve gone through a Break-Up, I’m like, oh my God, like, this is so awful. [00:26:35] Like, I want to kill myself. Do you see what I mean? Now you see it, now.

Payman Langroudi: You see it for what it is.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. [00:26:40] Kind of. But I think I hate being in that discomfort. Yeah. So the, the [00:26:45] the one thing that I want to do is self-soothe. And the one thing that I recognised about myself [00:26:50] when I was really young is that I don’t drink or take drugs [00:26:55] because I have a addictive personality. So sobriety was always a part of who I [00:27:00] was. But I think every human being, as someone like Gabor Mate recognises, [00:27:05] has some form of addiction. You know, he says that you could be even addicted, Twilight, whatever, for argument’s [00:27:10] sake. But I think that for me, I want to self-soothe. And my addiction [00:27:15] was validation. So my addiction was people telling me that I’m good enough. I think you’ll [00:27:20] find that that’s something that a lot of people on social media have as well. It’s why you’ve [00:27:25] got you’ve got this perpetual belief that you’re not good enough. And then people say, but you put yourself [00:27:30] out there. But then the pain of feeling not good enough actually propels you to put yourself out [00:27:35] there, because you want other people to tell you that you’re good enough. You know, it’s a sort of weird cycle that goes [00:27:40] on.

Adeola Gboyega: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s where it becomes very difficult because people see you on [00:27:45] social media being super confident, and then they can’t understand, like, how can you be like that? [00:27:50] But I think this is where there’s danger, because people then have a certain perception of you and they don’t understand that [00:27:55] you could be struggling with something like that. And the trolls come. Oh, 100%. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: And you know, [00:28:00] Payman knows like and the trolls come and the trolls will come and be like, you’re so ugly, you need this, [00:28:05] you need that. And then I’m just like.

Payman Langroudi: Just the other side of you. Yeah. You without this, this [00:28:10] pod here and we’ve all been on your page. Looks at me. Looks [00:28:15] like. Looks like fun time.

Rhona Eskander: No.

Payman Langroudi: But. But then. But then on this pod, you say, [00:28:20] oh, I’m fat or something. I’m like, you’re not fat or I’m not enough or something.

Rhona Eskander: And I [00:28:25] think, I think it’s also the other thing is that, you know, the thing is, is that the state [00:28:30] of happiness is not about having more or to search for the exterior that you believe will make [00:28:35] you happy. It’s actually being happy with what you’ve got. And I think the problem is, is that I get in [00:28:40] a real compare and despair, because I will look at other people around me. I’m really blessed to have patients [00:28:45] like Adeola, like all these amazing influencers, but sometimes I’m like, if I was as [00:28:50] successful, pretty thin, you know, fun, [00:28:55] whatever it is as them, I would be happier because more people online would notice [00:29:00] me.

Payman Langroudi: We all have something, right?

Rhona Eskander: Totally, totally. But I think, I.

Payman Langroudi: Think that your Gabor mate point. [00:29:05] Yeah, or I might eat too much or, you know, Whatever it is, we all have something that keeps us, you [00:29:10] know, on the level. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve got really, like, burning question for [00:29:15] an expert in the beauty industry. Yeah. Yeah. So, look, both of us have products. Mhm. Yeah. [00:29:20] Oral care products. And oral care is nowhere near as mature as skincare. [00:29:25] Right. And I walk with my daughter in a Sephora area, and she shows me, like, [00:29:30] 15 new brands that do different things or whatever. And I love it.

Rhona Eskander: You take your daughter to Sephora? [00:29:35] Just saying no. She takes me.

Payman Langroudi: She takes me. She knows I’m involved in packaging and all that. [00:29:40] So she’s showing me the packaging of the products. But okay. And I and I [00:29:45] listened to some of your stuff, and you’ve worked for Bobbi Brown and Clarins and and many other [00:29:50] big brands. How much of it is the brand, [00:29:55] sort of what the brand stands for, and how much of it is the [00:30:00] actual product that, that, that you’re using? Because how can it be? You’ve got 300 [00:30:05] brands. More, right? Yeah. You’ve got 506 [00:30:10] step processes here. How can it be that each of these are different? And when I listen to my [00:30:15] daughter and I watch my daughter, she’s into what brand values more than the products. But [00:30:20] then there are certain products that she says, oh, these are so just just talk me through that because [00:30:25] we’re, we’re at we’re doing toothpaste. Yeah. Yeah. I [00:30:30] bet you can’t name more than four toothpaste. You know, like so toothpaste. For some reason, it stops at [00:30:35] the lips, right? Yeah. And suddenly toothpaste has become a thing, you know, with hi smile and [00:30:40] moon and those things. So talk me through how much of it is brand when you’re looking at a at [00:30:45] a at a beauty company? And how much of it is products?

Adeola Gboyega: It’s a [00:30:50] very good question. Yeah, it’s such a good question. And I think this is and you know, I always [00:30:55] talk about social media because I’m so fascinated by it. But it’s because now there’s such a [00:31:00] democracy in terms of everybody has a voice. Yeah. And everyone has a voice.

Payman Langroudi: Voice? [00:31:05] Yeah.

Adeola Gboyega: Because brands can only do so much. They can obviously like, do the packaging and then obviously they’ve got their [00:31:10] marketing. But at the end of the day, if someone doesn’t have an affinity with it and doesn’t kind of bond with [00:31:15] the message or the product, they’re not going to use it. So, you know, when I think of Rona, what you’ve [00:31:20] done is that you’ve created a community, and that’s why people love you and they come to you. And like, for example, when I think [00:31:25] about the kind of people that were coming to you, I came into, you know, have my teeth done because of that. [00:31:30] And I think that’s where it’s very important. You can only go so far with a good product. It could be the best [00:31:35] product out there. But I think what people are looking for now is what does it mean when I use [00:31:40] that product? What does it signify? So for example it could be this toothpaste is [00:31:45] amazing. But then I’ve seen, for example, another celebrity that I actually really admire that’s literally vetoed [00:31:50] that thing and said, it’s an amazing thing. Oh, I now feel like I’ve got a piece of that product. And also [00:31:55] I’m kind of like slightly aligned with said person. When I first started working in the industry, [00:32:00] I remember working for a skincare brand and they didn’t even have foundations for my skin [00:32:05] tone. This was only, what, 1012 years ago? Same. And I literally [00:32:10] vowed to myself that I’m never, ever going to work with a brand that doesn’t represent me. And it’s so important because [00:32:15] there are brands out there that are making millions of money, but don’t even care to actually have a selection [00:32:20] of foundations and products that actually service everybody. And it’s still happening [00:32:25] to this day. And I think that’s where it’s very, very important. For example, I even feel like we have too much product [00:32:30] now.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I mean, the number of the.

Adeola Gboyega: Number of things that we have, it’s just overwhelming. [00:32:35] And that’s with us being in the industry and being experts and actually knowing what we’re doing. Imagine everyday consumer [00:32:40] like going into places like Sephora. Where do they even start? I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Look, you could ask the same question about clothes, [00:32:45] bags, absolutely. All of those things. Yeah, it’s I think, you.

Rhona Eskander: Know, you the [00:32:50] community piece I think is such an important thing. And I [00:32:55] sometimes feel like my messaging, for example, on Instagram is a little bit confused because [00:33:00] I don’t actually think I’ve built up a strong enough community. What I have been lucky is [00:33:05] to have very strong, incredible women behind me that helped me build a [00:33:10] certain community. You know, Melissa’s wardrobe, beauty in the blog ush. You, [00:33:15] you know, and I was really lucky. And what I loved about that community was as they [00:33:20] represented automatically diversity, authenticity and the clients that I got [00:33:25] off the back of that. And it was funny because there’s a lot of people that follow basically all of you, for, if that makes sense, [00:33:30] that then come to me like, oh, I saw your Melissa and then I saw you in Adeola, or I saw you on YouTube, or I saw you on Michelle’s, you know? And [00:33:35] so it’s kind of like, you know, that the same sort of people actually follow you guys. And so [00:33:40] I’ve been able to have that teeth is a funny one, right? Because I think it’s one of [00:33:45] the only medical professionals where it’s function and beauty. And if you think about it like [00:33:50] medicine, dentistry. Yeah, dentistry. Medicine is actually quite divisive in a way, because you’ve [00:33:55] got the aesthetic industry and then you’ve got the dentist that like save the heart and the brain and they’re like, they would never [00:34:00] do aesthetics, you know? And it’s very divisive. Whereas in dentistry, you literally [00:34:05] can’t have pretty looking teeth without having healthy, functional teeth. It’s impossible. If your gums are bad, the aesthetics [00:34:10] will fail. If you’ve got tooth decay, the aesthetics will fail. Does that make sense? It’s one of the only places [00:34:15] where you’ve got to kind of, like, marry both of them up and it’s accepted. Yeah, exactly. [00:34:20] But I also think that there.

Payman Langroudi: Is on this product’s question. Yeah. So let’s say [00:34:25] I like I like what’s that drunk elephant love drunk.

[TRANSITION]: I love that you [00:34:30] know that as well. Love it. Yeah I like.

Payman Langroudi: I like that one. The [00:34:35] ordinary.

[TRANSITION]: Okay. Yes.

Rhona Eskander: I don’t I really don’t like it for clinical for me.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you know, I [00:34:40] don’t know anything about them. Yeah, but these are, these are. I’m just throwing out urban decay. Yeah, [00:34:45] yeah. Now.

[TRANSITION]: If if me and you.

Payman Langroudi: If me and you want to make a new toothpaste [00:34:50] brand. Yeah. Which of those brands do we copy? Copy [00:34:55] in inverted commas. Yeah, I can. So what’s your favourite skincare brand and what would that toothpaste [00:35:00] look like?

Rhona Eskander: No no no. But listen, when we were.

[TRANSITION]: Skincare.

Rhona Eskander: When we were designing Parler, I’m going [00:35:05] to tell you now, when we were designing Parler, immediately, we didn’t want to be like the big conglomerates. [00:35:10] And immediately there were three brands. Me, Simon and Ardeche were copied, like, not copied, [00:35:15] but were inspired by Aesop. Yeah. Le Labo maybe it was ordinary, but you see, [00:35:20] that was a feel of.

[TRANSITION]: Like trusted.

Rhona Eskander: Clinical and beauty because you [00:35:25] don’t want to be too beauty. Yeah. The gold toothpaste. Come on. Do you know what I mean? Like, there’s a bit like. Does a dentist [00:35:30] approve of this? Yeah. Whereas you need to speak. And also there is something I’m going to put it out there, guys, [00:35:35] about Scandinavian Swiss brands that you trust. I just trust everything Scandinavian, Swiss, [00:35:40] those things like. And so again Aesop. I know Le Labo is French, but you know like you get that sense of like [00:35:45] I trust them. I trust the Scandi.

[TRANSITION]: So you went you.

Payman Langroudi: Went that route.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah we went Aesop’s Australian. [00:35:50] Is it? Yeah. Are you sure? Yeah. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, fine. But you know what I mean.

Adeola Gboyega: Who [00:35:55] am.

[TRANSITION]: I? Who do.

Payman Langroudi: I mean? I know you’ve worked for, but. But for instance, Pat.

[TRANSITION]: Mcgrath, you said. Yeah. [00:36:00]

Payman Langroudi: What a new ones that you’re interested in. And tell me some of the legacy ones that you like, as.

Adeola Gboyega: In like [00:36:05] makeup or skincare?

Payman Langroudi: Both. I’m talking about brand values rather than products.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Adeola Gboyega: So there’s one brand [00:36:10] that I absolutely love. So she’s a black founder. Her name is called Danessa Myricks. I love her because [00:36:15] she again is very good at storytelling and her products are just so innovative. [00:36:20] So she’s always thinking, how can I offer solutions to people’s [00:36:25] everyday woes? And I think if you’re always working from that kind of like stance point, you’re never going [00:36:30] to fail.

[TRANSITION]: Because technically.

Adeola Gboyega: Yes, I.

[TRANSITION]: Think so. Is that no.

Payman Langroudi: Is that what you mean? Solutions.

[TRANSITION]: Technical solutions? Yeah. [00:36:35]

Adeola Gboyega: Technical solutions. But also as well, you know, if she knows, for example, people are always worried about oily skin. [00:36:40] She’s going to create a product that’s going to help with that. And I think that’s very important because if you’re just doing [00:36:45] it because you’re going to hop on a trend, which I think a lot of brands are doing now. Yeah, there’s always going to be other brands that are going to do [00:36:50] that. But if you’re making really good sort of like theoretical products that actually work. The formulations [00:36:55] are good and they’re servicing the concerns that people have. You’re always going to do well. [00:37:00] But also I just love that she is very passionate about what she does and she still does Instagram [00:37:05] lives. Like, for example, her brand is so successful that she could literally be like, it can run its course, it’s going to do well and I don’t [00:37:10] need to be here. And that’s why I admire people like yourselves, because, you know, you you don’t have to be as [00:37:15] far as front facing as you are, but you do it because you’re passionate about it. Like, I love that you still [00:37:20] do TikToks. You still do videos. Like not everybody has to do that, but I think it’s very important.

Payman Langroudi: Skincare. The one [00:37:25] I’ve noticed. Trinny. Trinny London. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Done very well.

Adeola Gboyega: She’s done really well. But again, it’s because people [00:37:30] buy into her. Yeah. People buying her.

[TRANSITION]: Community.

Adeola Gboyega: Secondary. You know, they buy into who Trinny [00:37:35] is first and then they buy into the products afterwards. And I think when you’re leading from that kind of stance point, [00:37:40] you’re always going to do well.

Rhona Eskander: I want to challenge you on that, though, because I’ve seen a lot of content creators [00:37:45] 1 million, 2 million, 3 million followers. They bring a product out and it flops. So if they’ve bought into the person, [00:37:50] why has the product flopped again?

[TRANSITION]: I think it’s difficult.

Adeola Gboyega: It’s difficult, but also as well, it’s the lack of [00:37:55] community. Just because you’ve got numbers doesn’t mean that you’re engaging with your community, doesn’t mean that you’re servicing [00:38:00] them. For example, if you’re not doing things like Instagram Lives or you’re not actually actively speaking on stories, [00:38:05] how are you going to do well? Case in point, everyone’s.

Payman Langroudi: Examples aren’t there.

[TRANSITION]: There’s examples [00:38:10] on Melissa’s wardrobe.

Adeola Gboyega: She’s in a massive you know, she’s an incredible [00:38:15] person that I really look up to. But also I really absolutely adore because she’s a really good example of somebody [00:38:20] that is just so authentic and genuine, but has a real conversation with you on her stories. [00:38:25] You know, go on her page. It’s very beautiful, it’s very aesthetic. But at the end of the day, she will literally [00:38:30] be at home, hair tied up in a bun and having a conversation with you as if she’s having [00:38:35] a face time and you know she’s talking to you about real life things. You know, when she shared her story recently about [00:38:40] the end of her? Yeah. It’s real. Everybody’s going through all of those things. Doesn’t matter how successful you are, everyone’s [00:38:45] going through real life stuff. That is what people are buying into.

Payman Langroudi: There are examples where it’s worked, [00:38:50] for sure. The other way around. Right? So Glossier was a blog before it was a product. Huda [00:38:55] was a blog before it was a product. The Kardashian stuff like. There are examples [00:39:00] where community came first and product second.

Rhona Eskander: I think now it’s a little bit more difficult. [00:39:05] I was actually listening. I don’t know if any of you had, um, have listened to the podcast date yourself. Instead, [00:39:10] there’s a content creator called Liz Date yourself instead. Okay, so it’s [00:39:15] this. It’s this content creator called Liz. Um, and I really like her because I listen to all the self-help [00:39:20] stuff, and she does a lot about, like, the kind of, like, self-love and self-care and everything like that. And [00:39:25] she was talking about how and she’s created a very successful podcast, and she was saying that when she first started the podcast [00:39:30] industry, that people she saw people that had like 7,000,008 [00:39:35] followers and their podcasts flopped because she was saying, like, you can’t just assume because you’ve got a number on one [00:39:40] platform, it translates into another. And it’s completely different on like a podcast platform. [00:39:45] And I think, yeah, I think that that is also a really interesting [00:39:50] point. Being real and being authentic, I think is really important. You two.

Payman Langroudi: You two, [00:39:55] as women, tell me, what is the mental health side of [00:40:00] looking beautiful? Making yourself pretty. Like, is that a thing?

Rhona Eskander: I think so, [00:40:05] for sure. Yeah. I don’t really get dressed up like, look, I’m.

[TRANSITION]: You don’t get dressed up, and [00:40:10] I. Listen, you don’t get dressed up, my love.

Rhona Eskander: You haven’t let me finish my sentence. I don’t get dressed up for men, per [00:40:15] se. Because, because because. Yeah, but like, women love dressing up for women all the time. Obviously. Because we [00:40:20] notice things like. Did you notice my nails today? No, but she did. Yeah, exactly. [00:40:25] So, so basically, like, we noticed those little things about each other. [00:40:30] So I think that looking good is a form of self-care in a [00:40:35] way where you think like, you get up, you do like a routine. I find it, like, quite meditative.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:40:40] again, how come that doesn’t transfer into Dental? Like, what do you mean? Like, why can’t you get like a, like a [00:40:45] water flosser with your favourite mouthwash in it and feel like you’ve looked after yourself. [00:40:50] I do.

[TRANSITION]: I love doing my oral hygiene routine.

Payman Langroudi: You’re a dentist?

[TRANSITION]: No she does.

Rhona Eskander: My patients love it [00:40:55] now.

[TRANSITION]: I love it. Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: You see, a self-care, like in the same way. Absolutely.

[TRANSITION]: How interesting. It’s [00:41:00] changing. I love that I treat.

Rhona Eskander: I treat a lot of the beauty influencers, and they [00:41:05] will now treat their teeth care as their skincare routine. They are now. They’re invested in coming [00:41:10] in every three months for airflow.

Payman Langroudi: Guided biofilm, whatever. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: She goes and sees.

[TRANSITION]: Anna for airflow [00:41:15] all the time and then, you know.

Rhona Eskander: Flossing, brushing. She might text me, being like, oh, [00:41:20] did a tiny bit of bonding come out with my flossing, you know, and I’m.

[TRANSITION]: Like, because, you know, from the.

Payman Langroudi: From the prevention [00:41:25] side. Yeah. Like, you know, dentists job is to, you know, save teeth right from the prevention [00:41:30] message just isn’t sexy. But if it was a self-care message.

[TRANSITION]: But I’ve always said that. [00:41:35]

Payman Langroudi: No, but in the in the brushing in the in the cleaning side.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah I think it’s coming [00:41:40] to the forefront now. Yeah. But so much more.

Rhona Eskander: I don’t know if you saw we have a colleague of ours, Doctor Victoria. She was just [00:41:45] on Stephen Bartlett’s podcast talking about the oral microbiome. And, you know, Payman [00:41:50] said, like it was such a strong message because obviously with Stephen Bartlett’s platform, um, [00:41:55] now people are going to brush their teeth. Like how many millions of people are now going to brush their teeth? Like, that’s so amazing [00:42:00] because we can all get the message through to people. Even our own patients brush twice a day, every day. So [00:42:05] she was.

Payman Langroudi: Talking about.

[TRANSITION]: Diabetes, dementia, fertility, all those. But at the.

Rhona Eskander: End of the day, people are motivated [00:42:10] by selfish factors. Let’s be honest, because if they spend thousands of pounds on their bonding or veneers and [00:42:15] then you tell them they don’t brush their teeth, it’s all going to fail. They’re going to brush. Yeah. If people are told that [00:42:20] they’re infertile and that their saliva could have something to do with it, they’re going to brush. You see, people [00:42:25] have to see like feel something tangible.

Payman Langroudi: The Periodontists weren’t very happy with all of that, right?

[TRANSITION]: So we’ve got.

Payman Langroudi: Specialists [00:42:30] who say.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Tell me.

Payman Langroudi: The worst thing about being in the beauty industry. [00:42:35]

Adeola Gboyega: Um, comparison. I think it’s very important to have that conversation [00:42:40] because I think, you know, when you’re actively working in the industry, [00:42:45] especially with me being more of a content creator. Now, part of my job is to obviously like, [00:42:50] you know, be on trend and see what’s going on. But then that means that you’re consuming more social media, and then obviously you’re seeing [00:42:55] what other people are doing and you’re comparing yourself. And for someone like myself that, you know, the [00:43:00] average person might look at that and be like, oh, I’m happy within my life. But then I just dissect it and like, go into it even [00:43:05] more and then start thinking about it and overthinking. That’s when it can become very challenging.

Payman Langroudi: And also compare [00:43:10] yourself with other content creators. Is that.

Adeola Gboyega: Other content.

[TRANSITION]: Creators? Naturally. Is that what you mean? [00:43:15] Yeah, absolutely.

Rhona Eskander: Of course. Because also, like if you see someone that’s successful.

[TRANSITION]: On TikTok, [00:43:20] you have to.

Rhona Eskander: Understand what they’re doing right. And then naturally. But also like, I just hate being stuck [00:43:25] to my screen. That’s why I didn’t really when I started YouTube. And now I put the podcasts [00:43:30] on there. Youtube is a full time job, like, I don’t want to be stuck. Even like if you have an editor, you’ve got to [00:43:35] check stuff. They’ve got to check these podcasts. And like, I don’t want to be stuck forever to [00:43:40] your phone Like you’re naturally going to just be more unhappy.

Adeola Gboyega: Yeah. And it’s a constant rat race that you feel [00:43:45] like if I don’t post for a certain amount of days, I then start feeling a lot of anxiety about, okay, I need [00:43:50] to post now, but then what do I post? And have I missed out on certain things? So yeah, it’s just [00:43:55] a constant thing. There’s so many different things that I can speak about, but comparison would be one of the biggest ones. Um, [00:44:00] and also just feeling like you’re not living in the moment because everything can be like an Instagram Instagrammable [00:44:05] moment. Absolutely. So you’re always thinking, oh, I need to take a picture of this, or I need to do that. And [00:44:10] some days I just don’t want to be on my phone. And it’s really difficult also as well. You know, you have [00:44:15] your social media friends and your community in that sense, but you’ve also got to realise that you have [00:44:20] your real life friends, like my childhood friends, my family, and a lot of them haven’t been on social media or are [00:44:25] not on social media by choice. And so I then have to realise that how [00:44:30] I do things is not how they do things. For example, if I’m taking pictures of food, they might not want to take pictures [00:44:35] of food or I can’t ask them always to like take my content and take pictures of me because they don’t want to. [00:44:40] They just want to, like, have a good meal and enjoy themselves.

Rhona Eskander: But it is annoying. Like, you know, sometimes when you’re with someone [00:44:45] and they want to take 700 photos, you know, before they’re happy. I’m actually not one of those people. She’ll [00:44:50] vouch for me.

[TRANSITION]: You’re not at all. But. Yeah. Do you.

Payman Langroudi: Mean creators want to get it perfect. [00:44:55]

[TRANSITION]: Before they put it?

Rhona Eskander: Like even my makeup artist, Ahmed Cookie. You’re going to meet him one day.

[TRANSITION]: Like him?

Rhona Eskander: Like, [00:45:00] sometimes it’s like 700 photos before we get the right shots. Do you see what I mean? And I’m just like. [00:45:05] I’m like, I want to enjoy the dinner.

[TRANSITION]: Or the moment.

Rhona Eskander: Or walk. You know what I mean? Or like whatever. So sometimes [00:45:10] it becomes like a little bit more difficult. And I think that that’s the only thing that I’m worried about [00:45:15] because I think, like, the more that we’re stuck to our screens, the more we’re entering this [00:45:20] like Black Mirror. Oh, yeah. Um, vortex that we’re not going to be able to get out of.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:45:25] I bet.

Payman Langroudi: This this toxicity and ego.

Adeola Gboyega: All the time. But then I feel like that’s with every, [00:45:30] like, workplace. I always like I also look at social media as my job. You know, the same way that you would [00:45:35] go to a corporate job and there’s going to be toxic people and there’s going to be, you know, all that kind of stuff. It’s the same thing. [00:45:40] You know, there’s people that you meet in the industry and then you’re acquaintances. You have to realise that a lot of them are [00:45:45] not your friends. Play the game. Yeah, 100%. You have to go in there and realise that these are not my real friends. [00:45:50] My real friends are the people that will check in on me. And, you know, we’ll have like open conversations, [00:45:55] not the conversations that you have that are surface level when you go to these events, you know, and it’s the same with the corporate [00:46:00] world or any sort of like work place that you’re working in. It’s exactly the same.

Payman Langroudi: And do you think that [00:46:05] I always think with make up artists, there’s this sort of feeling that you’re on the edge of [00:46:10] the edge of the famous people and, you know, like because you must meet so many [00:46:15] famous people, right?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Do you get that? Not so much.

Adeola Gboyega: Now, because I feel like my bread and butter and where I make the [00:46:20] majority of my income is content creation. And actually, that can be quite lonely because you’re working for yourself and by [00:46:25] yourself and you’re working at home. Um, but then you don’t get fazed by that, because when you’re [00:46:30] going into, you know, the industry. As a makeup artist, before social media, the makeup [00:46:35] artist was always behind the scenes. You were never in front of the camera. It’s different now because now you can kind of [00:46:40] forge a really great career by being camera facing and being at the forefront. Um, but before, [00:46:45] you know, you dressed in all black. You were there to be, you know, you weren’t there to be seen. [00:46:50] You were not there to be heard. You were there to do your job. Yeah. You might be privy to conversations and [00:46:55] whole point of you being asked back and actually to have those relationships, because no matter what you saw or [00:47:00] what you heard, it never goes past that room. So I’ve been privy to a lot of things, but again, [00:47:05] it was never part of my job to kind of be enamoured by the celebrity. No one that actually goes into [00:47:10] being a makeup artist is about it because of the celebrity, because you work bloody [00:47:15] hard and half of the time you don’t even get to see or or like kind of reap the benefits of all those things until [00:47:20] much later on in life.

Rhona Eskander: Question for you. Do you agree with [00:47:25] content creators that work in the beauty industry [00:47:30] being very vocal about the experiences that they’ve had with [00:47:35] clients or brands in a way that might be deemed as derogatory. [00:47:40]

Adeola Gboyega: Yes and no. Um, I think if it’s going to be [00:47:45] an opportunity for you to voice something that might incite change, then yes, but [00:47:50] you have to be very mindful that when you then do that, you can’t then turn back. There’s been loads of experiences [00:47:55] that I’ve had where I could have spoken up about it and said something, but then I also feel once [00:48:00] I kind of divulge that information and share it, can I then go back, for example, that’s [00:48:05] going to ruin that relationship with me and that person. What does that have a knock on effect in terms of like [00:48:10] brand partnerships that I might have, because a brand might look at that and think, well, she’s spoken about a brand experience [00:48:15] that she’s had with that one person.

[TRANSITION]: She’s risky.

Adeola Gboyega: She’s a risky person to work with. I’m always [00:48:20] thinking about my reputation because I always feel that reputation is that thing that’s always on that [00:48:25] kind of knife edge, whereby any little thing can happen and it can just change 100%. [00:48:30] And there’s this real cancel culture. That’s very scary at the moment, whereby something could [00:48:35] happen to someone and it could just be like a minor mistake and people can just run with it and [00:48:40] that can be someone’s career over in a flash. It’s scary.

Rhona Eskander: So I’ve got a question for both of you. [00:48:45] You might not know this. You will definitely know this because you’re on TikTok. Someone like Bonnie Blue, who’s [00:48:50] had a lot of press about Bonnie Blue.

[TRANSITION]: No, see, I knew he wouldn’t know. I’m on TikTok.

Payman Langroudi: Hours every day, [00:48:55] though.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, so.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not with.

Rhona Eskander: Bonnie. Blue is a content creator who’s 25 [00:49:00] years old. She became very famous. She earned £600,000 [00:49:05] a month month. She started off in OnlyFans and she decided [00:49:10] to be very creative with her content, as she puts it, by going out on [00:49:15] freshers week and sleeping with as many people.

[TRANSITION]: As possible and.

Rhona Eskander: Like her parents are involved [00:49:20] and she would say that she’s empowered and that the women that are judging her are the Karens [00:49:25] at home. I don’t know if you saw the interview with Ashley James and she basically says that [00:49:30] she is providing an educational source for young boys, [00:49:35] girls, etc. and obviously Ashley made the point. But how is it educating? You know, you’re actually [00:49:40] perpetuating this belief that, you know, women are there for sex, etc.. So [00:49:45] my question for you is this. And I think about this because now there’s some [00:49:50] other girls that are also following her. They’re like 22. They’re like, I love to be sexually [00:49:55] active. If I can make money from it, then great.

Payman Langroudi: It’s important [00:50:00] that someone, a woman, should be able to say, I like to be sexually active.

[TRANSITION]: Correct. But do [00:50:05] you really think that for that question to you, is.

Rhona Eskander: This both of you, do you really think [00:50:10] that content creation has got so far that people are doing the craziest, wackiest thing? Or do you [00:50:15] really believe that we’re sleeping with 100 people a day, which is what they want? One [00:50:20] of them wanted to do not Bonnie Blue, the other girl, Lily Phillips. That is truly making [00:50:25] her happy.

Payman Langroudi: No. Look, man, it’s art.

Rhona Eskander: Is it? Yeah. Like, [00:50:30] have we become a generation of, like, where we’re living in this black, mirrored dystopian [00:50:35] reality? No.

[TRANSITION]: It’s true. Well, the answer to that is yes. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: That people don’t care [00:50:40] about ethics, morals and value because they’re like, do you know what? Like, there’s other girls, for example, in [00:50:45] OnlyFans. I need to stand out. So I’m going to do something completely shocking and different.

[TRANSITION]: But listen.

Payman Langroudi: You say ethics [00:50:50] and morals. Yeah. If she was going to campuses and taking people on a run. Yeah. [00:50:55] That would somehow be okay. But because.

[TRANSITION]: She’s going running.

Rhona Eskander: And taking people’s virginities are somewhat [00:51:00] different.

Payman Langroudi: But but you know that you’re reinforcing that we can’t talk about sex, [00:51:05] and we can’t. Not by saying that. By making that an ethical question. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: It’s not that [00:51:10] because like you said.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not an ethical.

[TRANSITION]: Question. It’s not.

Rhona Eskander: About that. Because the point is, is that she knows, [00:51:15] like with anyone, that this goes for men and women. Like you’re 18, you’re not [00:51:20] that developed maturity wise. You’re just not pay.

[TRANSITION]: This goes for men and women. You go to a [00:51:25] bar for me, but then go to a when you’re a 26 year old.

Rhona Eskander: You are far more developed. So to me, [00:51:30] whichever way it works, you know, there is a degree of vulnerability and responsibility [00:51:35] that comes with dealing with 18 year olds. That’s my view. And that’s that is an [00:51:40] ethical question. You’re right, you’re right. I’m an 18 year old.

[TRANSITION]: Not so much.

Payman Langroudi: You’re writing so much as if you said [00:51:45] 16 year old, which would still be legal. Yeah, I would have a problem with it. So there is a line. Yeah, there [00:51:50] is, of course, 16 and.

Rhona Eskander: 18 is a line. Did you.

[TRANSITION]: Hear that? Yeah, exactly. So you heard it from her. [00:51:55] You are wild. I know I’m making your point for you.

Payman Langroudi: I’m making your point for you. Yeah. If it was 16 year [00:52:00] olds, I would have a problem. But, you know, there is a line, right? I just think it’s art, man.

Rhona Eskander: If you want to go and learn from her [00:52:05] because it’s art.

[TRANSITION]: I support.

Rhona Eskander: You in your decision.

[TRANSITION]: Okay? And we.

Rhona Eskander: Can move [00:52:10] on from that.

[TRANSITION]: Conversation.

Rhona Eskander: So what is [00:52:15] your vision for the future? Adeola.

Adeola Gboyega: God, this is a really good question. I’ve [00:52:20] been thinking about potentially bringing up my own range of product. Um, I [00:52:25] mean, like, early stages, like, you know, I have a mentor now that’s helping me kind of, like, have a discussion [00:52:30] about it. Um, you know, I want to have someone to consult with me because I think it’s very important. [00:52:35] One of the things that I think is very important in terms of success is to speak to somebody that’s already done what you’re trying to do. [00:52:40] Um, because obviously everyone’s made mistakes, and I know that if I was to go in there blind and try [00:52:45] and do it myself, I’m not going to make as much impact as if I spoke to someone that’s already launched a [00:52:50] brand or somebody that’s worked in that industry. Um, for so long, I was kind of like, does anyone [00:52:55] want more product? But then I also think, again, people buy into me. People are always asking me, what’s [00:53:00] the best mascara? What’s the best skincare product? So even with the fact that we have so much choice, [00:53:05] people still want to speak to you individually because they trust you.

Rhona Eskander: It’s unbelievable because some [00:53:10] people still message me saying, what’s the best, what’s the best? And I’m like, I’m constantly talking.

[TRANSITION]: About stuff.

Rhona Eskander: And [00:53:15] tagging stuff like do a little bit of like clicking, you know what I mean?

[TRANSITION]: Like just kind of.

Payman Langroudi: This is kind [00:53:20] of why you started Paula though.

Rhona Eskander: Her How? What? Why? People always ask. Yeah. For sure. Like, people [00:53:25] were always asking us. And then, you know, when you look into the brands that pay you or like, want to do, you start looking [00:53:30] into them and you’re like, what are their ethics? What are their values? What are their ingredients? And then we recognise that we could offer something [00:53:35] like better. I mean, I bought into used enlightened. No.

Adeola Gboyega: Yeah. I had it when [00:53:40] I was having my teeth done. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: This is the best Payman brand.

Rhona Eskander: So I [00:53:45] bought into enlightened as a brand because for me, like, there was another competitor on the [00:53:50] market that really tried to route me into working with them and, like, just didn’t feel aligned to [00:53:55] it. Whereas, like, enlightened isn’t your standard whitening because the big thing about it is it’s much more [00:54:00] expensive. It really is, but it just aligned with me. Whereas like the cheap brands [00:54:05] just I just felt like it. I had a problem with even like telling patients like there’s this [00:54:10] option because and I do still do that because I’m like, look, there is the cheaper option. There isn’t. Listen to me, enlightened is the best because [00:54:15] I will give them that option. But I still struggle because there’s this like lack of alignment. You know what I mean? And [00:54:20] for me, it’s it’s not just about the I know how much Payman like, puts into the branding [00:54:25] and the ingredients and things like that. And that’s something that I will always I buy into that stuff [00:54:30] with everything, with the, the food that I put in my body with, like everything that I do. So [00:54:35] I think.

Payman Langroudi: For you doing your own brand. Yeah. The I mean, you know, I [00:54:40] would say beware. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: It’s hard.

Payman Langroudi: I would say, don’t [00:54:45] even think about whether it’s worked or not for five years. Yeah, yeah. Like [00:54:50] if it works in year six, that’s still a massive success. Yeah. Yeah. Now, hey, [00:54:55] it might happen in the first year and go berserk. Yeah. Um, and I would say, you know, have [00:55:00] a financial partner. Yeah. Yeah. Like, because if it’s a six year project. Yeah. Bring [00:55:05] in someone who understands. Unless you understand how to raise money and all that. No.

[TRANSITION]: You know.

Adeola Gboyega: This [00:55:10] is why it’s really good to have, like you said, like, speak to someone that knows. And, um.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:55:15] would look at incubators. You know? You know what they are.

[TRANSITION]: No. What are they?

Payman Langroudi: So you go with your business plan to this, to [00:55:20] this incubator, and then they they either fit you up with the right people and then and [00:55:25] then show you the process right, and tell you whether they think it’s a good idea or not, take [00:55:30] you through the first few bits and get you into the sort of the whole thing of professionalising. [00:55:35]

Adeola Gboyega: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I would also say one thing, like one thing that’s really important. I wondered if you ever did that. But I do [00:55:40] think a mentor is invaluable. And I’ve had several mentors and for me that [00:55:45] is I think, like you said, I really you know, my biggest bugbear is [00:55:50] people that give you advice that haven’t even done what you want to do or have achieved anything. [00:55:55] I know it sounds really weird, but someone, for example, that’s like never had a successful relationship. Let’s [00:56:00] just give that as an example and they start giving you relationship advice. I’m like, hun, why? Why would I want [00:56:05] that? Because I for me, like mentors for example, are someone that have done something. I’m not saying necessarily like you [00:56:10] don’t necessarily have had to been a huge success, but for me the value lies [00:56:15] is that they’ve like walked the walk walked before they can talk the talk, you know. So I wanted to start [00:56:20] my own product, which we did do. I’d be happy to chat to you pay because I know that you’ve done that and you’ve [00:56:25] walked down that line. I’m not going to talk to like some random dentist that’s never done it. That is my personal [00:56:30] view. That is what I think is really important about mentors. When I wanted to open up Chelsea Dental [00:56:35] Clinic, I looked at people that had built practices that I aspired to have or had built brands [00:56:40] that I aspired to have. Those were the ones I looked up to, not the kind of average person that was [00:56:45] next to me. You might disagree with me because I can see there being like, I’m going to just disagree. But she [00:56:50] agrees, and I think there’s something there is something. There is something that.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:56:55] kind of agree. I kind.

[TRANSITION]: Of agree, you know, and I think.

Rhona Eskander: That that’s but that’s why you listen to a podcast like [00:57:00] Secret Leaders because you learn from those entrepreneurs, you know, like, I think there is something to have [00:57:05] been said.

Payman Langroudi: And did you see the story of Drunk Elephant? No. There’s a brilliant how I, how I [00:57:10] built this. Yeah. Where he goes and interviews Tiffany.

Adeola Gboyega: The lady that [00:57:15] kind of founded Texas girl.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant story.

[TRANSITION]: You know how I built this?

Payman Langroudi: The podcast. [00:57:20]

Adeola Gboyega: Okay.

[TRANSITION]: So check it out.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant.

Adeola Gboyega: I love stuff like that. But it’s to your point, I [00:57:25] think it’s very important to hear and speak people’s stories, because I think that’s how you learn. [00:57:30] Absolutely.

Rhona Eskander: I think you’re amazing. How is [00:57:35] your mental health now?

Adeola Gboyega: It’s good. It’s getting better. I think it’s an ongoing thing. Um, [00:57:40] I think for me, the biggest thing that I have to learn to do is not [00:57:45] feel like when things don’t work out, it’s a massive failure. So I catastrophize [00:57:50] everything, like a little thing will go wrong and I will literally just obsess over it [00:57:55] and literally just go into this hole. Um, but there’s a really good app, actually. Can I tell [00:58:00] you something?

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Rhona Eskander: One of my favourite sayings that I keep telling myself now, rejection [00:58:05] is redirection. That’s all it is. When something doesn’t work out, another door will [00:58:10] open. And I really love that. Someone said that to me and I wrote it out again and again. Confusion is clarity. [00:58:15] Rejection is redirection. So I really love that. You know, you think that when one [00:58:20] door closes or something doesn’t work out, it just means that you’re being redirected into something else that’s going to be more in alignment [00:58:25] with you.

Adeola Gboyega: It’s so true, and I totally agree with that. Um, so yeah, I just [00:58:30] think I’m always trying to kind of look at tools that will really, really help me. Um, there’s a lady on [00:58:35] Instagram that I follow that basically shared something. It’s called untold. It’s [00:58:40] an app where basically you speak into it and it’s like a journaling app, but then it gives you [00:58:45] like different ways that you can kind of or different perspectives of how you can like, deal with it. [00:58:50] So it would be like a cognitive thing and then it would be like exercises. And that’s really helped me because sometimes in [00:58:55] the moment you might think, oh my God, woe is me, but it just takes someone to give you a different perspective to kind of change [00:59:00] your mindset at that moment in time.

Rhona Eskander: Do you know what else you can do? You can actually tell ChatGPT your problem [00:59:05] and.

[TRANSITION]: Ask it for.

Rhona Eskander: Advice.

[TRANSITION]: I love and it.

Rhona Eskander: Actually will give you like a bit of a nuanced [00:59:10] like.

[TRANSITION]: View on it all. What are your.

Adeola Gboyega: Thoughts on ChatGPT? I always love to hear what people think about [00:59:15] it.

[TRANSITION]: I think it’s.

Rhona Eskander: Great. I use it a lot because with my ADHD brain, I work so [00:59:20] quickly, full of spelling mistakes, full of like like in like I do [00:59:25] ten things at a time. So I use ChatGPT actually for like everything. So now even with [00:59:30] like an email, I’ll like do a voice note to ChatGPT and be like, write Payman and email [00:59:35] to discuss like our next like podcast discussion. This is our guest. Have a look at her background. Here’s the [00:59:40] link of the background. Can you. And then it like does it all. And I’m really good at it. And my partner [00:59:45] who works in finance, his boss is and he was like like if people know how to use AI [00:59:50] it can be incredibly successful. And also I think we can’t stop it. The only thing that I think will be interesting [00:59:55] to see is like from an educational point of view, like we all had to do our own research, right, to like create an [01:00:00] essay or whatever. And obviously people now are going to be using ChatGPT like, how are the universities and schools [01:00:05] going to stop it?

[TRANSITION]: Do you know from your.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I find it ridiculous. Like in my in my kids school they’ve banned it. [01:00:10]

[TRANSITION]: But you should just work with it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s total madness. I’m like, they should. They should make it compulsory rather [01:00:15] than banning it like.

[TRANSITION]: But then how would they.

Adeola Gboyega: Know that they’ve used.

[TRANSITION]: It like.

Payman Langroudi: They run it through a filter. But then. But [01:00:20] then kids are clever enough. Like there’s another, there’s another filter called humanise.

Adeola Gboyega: I just [01:00:25] to kind of make it sound a bit.

Payman Langroudi: I encourage my kids to use it. Yeah, but the only danger of [01:00:30] it outside of end of the world type dangers here is that if it has a political stance [01:00:35] and that’s been an issue. Right. Where, you know, Gemini was wasn’t [01:00:40] like was a bit very, very left leaning, very woke like, um, thing [01:00:45] and you know, that’s Google’s ChatGPT version. Um, and that question of because [01:00:50] now, now this will, this will literally become our government. Let’s [01:00:55] face it. You know, in the end, you know, the politicians will be using it to and if it’s [01:01:00] nuanced, if it’s racist, if it’s whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah. If it’s two right wing. Two [01:01:05] left wing. Yeah. And and how are they programming that and who owns that? And is [01:01:10] is there like regulation about to come in. That’s going to mean it has to say a certain thing. [01:01:15] And I think that would be a real shame if that happens. You know, in the same way as social media has been regulated. Um, [01:01:20] until Elon came along.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: But X has gone down since Elon came along, so I’m not. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:01:25] still the regulation piece. Yeah. Like, you know they did that thing the Twitter files. Yeah. And it was like the [01:01:30] government was constantly in at Twitter telling them what to do. Yeah I don’t want the government telling [01:01:35] I what to tell me. Let the technologists like make it. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm. [01:01:40]

Rhona Eskander: Right. I can tell you this conversation forever. I’m not going to let him go down at X [01:01:45] and Twitter hole.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Rhona Eskander: And Elon and Trump like debate. That’s going to be another time. But [01:01:50] thank you so much for joining us. I want to ask you one final question before [01:01:55] we let you go. If there was something that you could tell your younger self, knowing what you know now, [01:02:00] what would you tell her?

Adeola Gboyega: Oh, I would say that your [01:02:05] value doesn’t lie in what you feel like you can offer, like you’re valuable as you are. [01:02:10] Because I think for so long I was always and I still struggle with it to this day. I always feel like, oh, [01:02:15] what can I offer people to feel like I’m valuable, but I’m actually having to learn that I am of value as [01:02:20] I am. And that’s.

[TRANSITION]: Perfect. You are.

Rhona Eskander: You’re amazing.

[TRANSITION]: Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much for this [01:02:25] as well. Go on. Your favourite day.

Adeola Gboyega: My favourite.

[TRANSITION]: Day. Describe [01:02:30] your favourite day.

Payman Langroudi: No no no. Like, what was.

[TRANSITION]: Your favourite day? Oh, what was my favourite day? What comes to.

Payman Langroudi: Mind? [01:02:35] What happened that day?

Adeola Gboyega: Wow.

Payman Langroudi: Best day of your life. And you’re [01:02:40] not allowed to say weddings, kids. None of that.

Adeola Gboyega: I have none of those.

[TRANSITION]: Not any of them yet.

Adeola Gboyega: So [01:02:45] I.

Rhona Eskander: Sitting on Dental.

[TRANSITION]: Leaders.

Rhona Eskander: No joking.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:02:50] in your 20s, man.

[TRANSITION]: Do you know.

Rhona Eskander: What are you living.

[TRANSITION]: In? No.

Payman Langroudi: Your favourite day.

[TRANSITION]: Was my 20s. [01:02:55]

Rhona Eskander: For sure. My 20s were terrible.

[TRANSITION]: Really?

Rhona Eskander: I was so insecure. And also. I [01:03:00] told.

[TRANSITION]: You this.

Payman Langroudi: What was your favourite day?

[TRANSITION]: Have a think.

Adeola Gboyega: I’m gonna say that I feel like I’m yet to experience it. And I’m [01:03:05] actually really excited.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Adeola Gboyega: Because I don’t feel like I’ve had like a specific day that’s like, [01:03:10] oh my God, that stands out in my mind that I’m like, oh my gosh, that’s been the best day of my life. I feel like the [01:03:15] beauty that I feel like I’m living in the moment is that I’m yet to experience that. And that’s exciting.

Payman Langroudi: Today. [01:03:20]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Is that what you are?

Adeola Gboyega: Is that what you wanted.

[TRANSITION]: Me to say?

Adeola Gboyega: Today is the best day.

[TRANSITION]: Listen, what’s [01:03:25] your favourite day? Your favourite day?

Rhona Eskander: My life coach said to me that one of the most [01:03:30] important things is to find the extraordinary in the ordinary. And I know it sounds so cheesy, but [01:03:35] sometimes I really appreciate mundane things now. And it would be. And I don’t know if that’s [01:03:40] come with age. Like I’m like, oh my God, I’m actually a cougar now. I mean, I have to have kids first. But I was like, whatever. But [01:03:45] like the mundane, like I look at the trees or I’ll literally look at, you [01:03:50] know, something in nature. And I’m like, this is actually really extraordinary. I was [01:03:55] even watching, um, I was really ill last week, so I was watching about a puffer fish. [01:04:00] There was this incredible documentary about, like, the life of a puffer fish and watching how [01:04:05] nature like communicates with each other. I was like, this is unbelievable. So [01:04:10] having said that, some of my most beautiful moments have been in nature. I’m a little bit of a hippie, [01:04:15] so like me and my partner go scuba diving. We went to go watch the gorillas in Rwanda. [01:04:20] I went to go release the baby turtles into the sea in Guatemala.

Rhona Eskander: That was one of the most beautiful moments of my life, releasing [01:04:25] those baby turtles. And for me, those are some of the most beautiful moments. And, you know, people are like, what [01:04:30] about the day that you got married? And like, I have a problem with that, like you said, because I feel like that’s actually such a [01:04:35] curated day. The curation of that all is, is that although it’s a day of celebration, of love, so [01:04:40] much money and planning goes into it that it’s almost contradictory to be the most amazing day of your life, [01:04:45] because you’re doing it so that everyone looks at you. Do you know what I mean? So for me, that didn’t feel like [01:04:50] the natural, and I feel that maybe I might even have like a ten year anniversary [01:04:55] or something and do it like on a beach would feel more aligned, like in nature, not necessarily with anyone around, if that makes [01:05:00] sense. So for me, some of those moments are it will be in nature, I’d say, [01:05:05] where you really feel alive. You really.

[TRANSITION]: Feel like you’re one.

Payman Langroudi: Of our other guests said, like you could pick 6 or 7 things, [01:05:10] and if those 6 or 7 things happen in a day, then you’ve had a great day. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: That’s [01:05:15] that’s that’s a really good way of doing an ice bath.

Rhona Eskander: Going for a.

[TRANSITION]: Long walk.

Rhona Eskander: Like experiencing animals. [01:05:20]

[TRANSITION]: You know what I mean?

Adeola Gboyega: I love that and I think also as well, I had that same conversation with my therapist at the time [01:05:25] because I think especially and I think you might agree with this, when you’re in the kind of mindset [01:05:30] that we have where you’re always chasing your next high of like, you know, what’s happening next, what’s happening next, [01:05:35] when those things don’t happen, you then take it very, very personally. So then you’re always on this constant sort of journey [01:05:40] of what’s going to happen next to the point that you don’t even actually, like, think about what you’ve achieved. Like just [01:05:45] last week, because you’re thinking, oh my gosh, what’s happening?

[TRANSITION]: How far you’ve come that I’m [01:05:50] the worst, that I’m going to be completely.

Rhona Eskander: Honest with you. Like celebrating the like official launch of [01:05:55] Chelsea Dental Clinic, even though we like really opened up in like June.

[TRANSITION]: July last night. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I [01:06:00] was like, oh my God. Like I’ve been so hard on myself. I never took a moment to appreciate [01:06:05] what I built in that clinic. And Joseph and Charlie came. They were the owners that I [01:06:10] bought the clinic from.

[TRANSITION]: Joseph, and.

Rhona Eskander: They were like, what the hell have you done to this place? They couldn’t recognise it. And I was [01:06:15] like, this was literally a two surgery practice, you know, so basic. What is it [01:06:20] now? And it’s five surgeries. And like I came from the beginning, like, you know, when it was a [01:06:25] basic and I was like, I never took stock. I never took stock of what it was like. [01:06:30] Next. Hi. Next. Hi. So when the refurb was done, I was like, cool. Next.

Adeola Gboyega: Yeah. What’s next?

Rhona Eskander: Yesterday I was like, oh my God, I have [01:06:35] so many people in this room that love me, that care about me and have like, really, like shown me that they’re [01:06:40] proud of me. You know, I even had like, monarch tell me, you know, like big dentists that I’ve [01:06:45] known for years. And I was like, do you know what? I’ve actually achieved something that I can be proud of.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Adeola Gboyega: So and [01:06:50] that’s amazing.

[TRANSITION]: And on that note.

Rhona Eskander: Thank you so much for being part of that journey.

[TRANSITION]: Thank you so much. [01:06:55] Thank you for having me.

Payman Langroudi: The biggest problem with teeth whitening is sensitivity. So if you’re having [00:00:05] that problem, have a look at the Enlightened Comfort pack. Enlightened Comfort Pack is our serum [00:00:10] toothpaste, which is a hydroxyapatite potassium citrate fluoride toothpaste, and [00:00:15] our Enlightened Comfort pen, which is a bioglass potassium nitrate pen. The two together [00:00:20] will make any whitening treatment much, much more comfortable. Have a look. Enlightened smiles. Com with the [00:00:25] enlightened Comfort Pack, let’s get to this week’s episode.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders, [00:00:35] the podcast where you get to go one on one [00:00:40] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome Yohan Oduwole onto the podcast. [00:00:55] Yohan is a young dentist who is making real waves in [00:01:00] the profession. Um, she had an interesting story getting to dental school, which we’ll talk about [00:01:05] a bit of an influencer on the old social media wonderful YouTube channel, which [00:01:10] is where I saw an interview with Bill Dorfman, I think. Yes. Yeah. Um, years [00:01:15] ago, um, an avid listener to this pod, thank goodness. And, um, [00:01:20] someone who, you know, for me, just has positivity. Is that like, [00:01:25] you just you just scream positivity. You. And it’s a massive pleasure to have you.

Yewande Oduwole: Thank you so [00:01:30] much. It’s an honour to be on the podcast. I’ve actually been listening to it since I was a student, so [00:01:35] it feels weird to be on the other side. So thank you for having me.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a pleasure. [00:01:40] You want to tell me your backstory? Where [00:01:45] were you born? When did you first think dentistry? [00:01:50]

Yewande Oduwole: So I was born in Nigeria. Um, I came [00:01:55] here when I was about two, two years old.

Payman Langroudi: She don’t remember?

Yewande Oduwole: No, I don’t. I don’t [00:02:00] remember much of Nigeria, but I stayed there long enough to understand the language. So I’m very grateful [00:02:05] to have had my early, early days in this earth, in my [00:02:10] motherland, because I was able to learn Yoruba. And then I came here with my mum [00:02:15] and dad and like a lot of, you know, ethnic minorities just looking for [00:02:20] a better life here. Um, I just remember my mum doing a lot [00:02:25] of different jobs. So it was my dad moving from house to house. Um, [00:02:30] I even asked my mum, what does she remember about me growing up? What was I like as a child? [00:02:35] And she was just like she used to take me to work with her because she used to work as a carer. And [00:02:40] the old ladies would be like, oh, your daughter is so, so sweet, so positive. I’d want to like, help her. [00:02:45] I was probably like 4 or 5 at the time, but I’d want to do the work with her. [00:02:50] Um, so yeah, growing up, it, I just remember just seeing [00:02:55] my parents work really, really hard. And.

Payman Langroudi: Are you an only child?

Yewande Oduwole: No. [00:03:00] I’m the eldest of three. Oh, okay. So I am the eldest daughter. [00:03:05] If there are any old daughters listening to this podcast, you know what it’s like to be the eldest [00:03:10] daughter of the family. They call it eldest daughter syndrome. You have to look after everyone. [00:03:15] So I look after my two younger brothers growing up, and when my parents were out [00:03:20] working, it would be me. Um, so yeah, and growing [00:03:25] up as well, unfortunately, my parents didn’t stay together, so I had to, you know, witness [00:03:30] that journey of separation. So how old were you? Uh, probably about ten when [00:03:35] they split up.

Payman Langroudi: For that to happen.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. No, it was tough. I just I remember going to [00:03:40] school and seeing all these, you know, happy families and just thinking, oh, it would be so great to [00:03:45] to have that kind of dynamic. So yeah, childhood was [00:03:50] wasn’t the most.

Payman Langroudi: It was turbulent.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. Turbulent. [00:03:55] I was watching a show on Netflix the other day, actually called made, and I really [00:04:00] resonated with it. Seeing her journey, looking after her child. And they said in that programme that [00:04:05] if a child doesn’t grow up with stability, that child is more likely [00:04:10] to have problems. And I definitely didn’t grow up with stability, so I probably would have [00:04:15] been a part of the statistics to grow up with problems. Stability [00:04:20] is really important.

Payman Langroudi: Gabor Mate talks about it. Have you looked at any of his work?

Yewande Oduwole: No. What does [00:04:25] he say?

Payman Langroudi: He’s sort of traces all of addiction back to childhood [00:04:30] trauma of some sort.

Yewande Oduwole: Well, it’s true, obviously, if you’re growing up in [00:04:35] that environment, you kind of maybe people tend to seek happiness and pleasure from [00:04:40] elsewhere, but.

Payman Langroudi: So then, so then, so then on that point is that is there any [00:04:45] sort of leftover from that childhood experience [00:04:50] now? Like for instance, do you look for stability more than you look for excitement [00:04:55] or whatever? Like what resonates if I say that what’s [00:05:00] left of that turbulence in your childhood today.

Yewande Oduwole: I feel the fact [00:05:05] that I’ve gone through that just makes me want stability for my future. Which is why [00:05:10] I think, obviously when we start talking about my career, I have been so determined to make sure that [00:05:15] I create a solid foundation for myself, because eventually [00:05:20] I want to have children and I don’t want them to have to go through what I witnessed, because [00:05:25] you kind of become a you’re a child, but you’re a parent at the same time. And [00:05:30] I think children should be allowed to be kids rather than thinking, oh, you [00:05:35] know, how are we going to afford this? Or what can I do to help my parents, etc. as [00:05:40] a child, thinking about all of that, obviously it gives you builds resilience in you. Yeah. Um, I’m [00:05:45] sure you have kids when you they’re probably in a fortunate situation where they don’t have [00:05:50] to kind of go through all of that. But I think going through that does build a certain level of resilience. [00:05:55] And you, you, because you’ve gone through it and you’ve seen it firsthand, you don’t want that [00:06:00] for your children.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, my, my my wife was ill and [00:06:05] an ambulance came to our house to take her away recently, years ago. [00:06:10] Um, but I was talking to my daughter, and, uh, out of the blue, she. She said [00:06:15] that was the worst night of my life. And that was, like, maybe seven years ago, and. [00:06:20] And I had no idea. Yeah. You know, you had no idea that that. I mean, I knew she she was she was [00:06:25] around.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But, you know, at age 14, she’s telling me when [00:06:30] she was seven, that was the worst, worst day of her life. You know.

Yewande Oduwole: That just shows like that just.

Payman Langroudi: Goes to show. Yeah. [00:06:35] And often as a child, you sort of bury that stuff, and and or [00:06:40] you suffer in silence. Like. Like with my daughter’s example. Like she’d not mentioned it once before. [00:06:45] Not once. Um, and but then it did come out in that conversation for whatever reason, [00:06:50] you know? Wow.

Yewande Oduwole: It just shows how childhood trauma is. Really. You think you’ve forgotten about [00:06:55] it, but as an adult, it does play a role. And for your daughter to remember that, it just shows [00:07:00] the effect it has on her thinking. Is mom going to be okay? Is she. Was she okay? [00:07:05]

Payman Langroudi: She was okay.

Yewande Oduwole: Okay, good.

Payman Langroudi: So now, I mean, looking at you from [00:07:10] the sort of from a distance, right? Or. I mean, I think social media is a distance, isn’t it? [00:07:15] That you get this sort of highlight reel of someone’s.

Yewande Oduwole: Life 100%, and you look.

Payman Langroudi: So happy and so wonderful, and [00:07:20] you’re really making waves in the Dental world especially, you know, where you’re at so early on [00:07:25] in the journey. What are you struggling with?

Yewande Oduwole: Good question. [00:07:30] Um, I think a lot of my career I have [00:07:35] struggled with imposter syndrome. Really? 100%. I feel even though I [00:07:40] get the accolades, you know, even literally last weekend I won the [00:07:45] award for best young dentist. South East. You felt.

Payman Langroudi: Like you didn’t deserve.

Yewande Oduwole: It? No, I felt great. [00:07:50]

Payman Langroudi: Do you believe in that sort of manifesting?

Yewande Oduwole: 100%. Like, my faith plays a huge part in my [00:07:55] life. Um, definitely believe, you know, in God and just [00:08:00] trusting that what is for you will always be for you. And I feel [00:08:05] like my path has been laid out already, but it’s up to me to, [00:08:10] to to seek it. So yeah, when I won the award, I was just like, this has actually happened. But then I had this [00:08:15] overwhelming just, oh my gosh, am I deserving of this? People are going to look at me [00:08:20] and think, oh, she’s only four years qualified. How has she won this award? I think that’s one of my [00:08:25] biggest struggles, thinking so much about what other people think. And it’s [00:08:30] so funny because I do social media and people probably think, oh, she she doesn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Think you don’t care.

Yewande Oduwole: No. [00:08:35] Yeah, I care, but I think the difference is I just convinced [00:08:40] myself that people always have an opinion, and it’s not up to me to change that if [00:08:45] they want to. People probably think, oh, she doesn’t deserve that or oh, she, she [00:08:50] hasn’t, she hasn’t done this clinical cases why she won this award. But at the end of [00:08:55] the day, I know there’s a reason why God set me on this path. So I’d like.

Payman Langroudi: To break [00:09:00] that down into two aspects. Go for it. One, your sort of faith. Yeah, [00:09:05] because I’ve got a friend who’s quite religious. One of my best friends. Mhm. And [00:09:10] there are moments in, in life where you know, where a challenge has happened. [00:09:15] Right. And he’s a, he’s a top surgeon. You know challenges happen to him all the time. Right. [00:09:20] And we were talking and he was saying he was having a difficult life. And he’s he’s [00:09:25] got backache. He does 12 hour operations. Um, and [00:09:30] and the operations no one else in the country can do. Oh, wow. And, you know, sometimes he can’t get out of [00:09:35] bed, but there’s a 12 hour operation that, you know, the guy might die if he doesn’t. It’s a nightmare situation. [00:09:40] You’d imagine. Yeah.

Yewande Oduwole: Of course.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes when he’s talking about these situations, his eyes [00:09:45] kind of glaze over and he goes, but you know what? It’s going to be okay. 100%. [00:09:50] And I’m like, how do you know? And he goes, no, it’s going to be okay. And [00:09:55] I suddenly realised that that’s his faith. Yeah. And so I don’t have faith. [00:10:00] Right. So I don’t have that moment. Yeah. As my wife was being taken away in the ambulance, [00:10:05] I didn’t have that moment of thinking. It’s going to be okay. Someone’s looking out for me. Yeah. So there [00:10:10] are moments when when someone dies here, I don’t have that moment of thinking they’ve gone to [00:10:15] this better place, that they’re looking down on me or whatever. You know, religion tells you. Yeah. [00:10:20] Um, and, you know, there’s that famous phrase about, uh, there’s no atheists in a bomb shelter [00:10:25] sort of thing. Yeah. And, you know, or if I’m really need something [00:10:30] to happen, I don’t. I can’t pray to someone to say, please make this thing happen. Yeah. [00:10:35] So, so there are downsides to not having faith.

Yewande Oduwole: Of course.

Payman Langroudi: But there are downsides [00:10:40] to having faith as well. So tell me about those. I mean, do you do you have massive [00:10:45] guilt or something?

Yewande Oduwole: So it’s a lot to unpack there. What you’ve just [00:10:50] said, I think firstly, my faith, I feel like I wouldn’t be where I [00:10:55] am today without my faith. It has genuinely, genuinely been [00:11:00] such a catalyst in my success. And obviously, for someone like you [00:11:05] that you said you don’t have faith for you, that probably just sounds strange. Like, no, you feel that I did it all myself, [00:11:10] but I genuinely feel in moments. For example, if we take it back to when I didn’t get into dental school. [00:11:15] Yeah, that was the biggest test of my faith. I remember [00:11:20] when was it 2013? I first applied to dental school [00:11:25] over ten years ago now, which feels so weird. I prayed so much. I [00:11:30] was like, I want to get in and I didn’t. I got two offers. I [00:11:35] got an offer from Manchester and Liverpool. So I was thinking great because I wanted to be in a [00:11:40] city. I was thinking, it’s all working out.

Payman Langroudi: You missed it by 1%.

Yewande Oduwole: I’ve heard this. Yes. So [00:11:45] I had got these. Imagine you have two offers from these top dental schools [00:11:50] and you do your exams. I had done countless of past papers. Right? [00:11:55] I’m a I’m a hard worker. I’m not someone that’s naturally smart. I have to work hard. [00:12:00] So I did so many past papers revise, revise, revise. And it got to the day Payman [00:12:05] did the exam finished and I remember the invigilator coming round. She picked [00:12:10] up my paper, turned it around and said, oh, you didn’t want to answer this 25 [00:12:15] mark question at the back.

Payman Langroudi: You just didn’t see it.

Yewande Oduwole: I didn’t see it until this day. [00:12:20] Every time I tell this story, I feel that moment all over again. I literally [00:12:25] burst into tears. I was thinking, can I have that back? I can answer it. I can answer it. It was a question about [00:12:30] the heart or something. It was a biology exam and I was just like, how did I miss that? And I [00:12:35] think that’s one of those moments when you’re like, God, Why? Yeah. Like I’ve literally [00:12:40] I could see those offers that I had flying out the window. Because if I’ve missed out this whole question, there’s no way I’m going [00:12:45] to get my result. Yeah. So I think that year I was really depressed because [00:12:50] obviously the results came out. And to make matters worse, it was 1% [00:12:55] off. You got.

Payman Langroudi: Everything else right, I.

Yewande Oduwole: Guess. So even if I just answered like a few other things, I would have got it. [00:13:00] So I was thinking, how could this be? And I was really battling with God, saying, what’s [00:13:05] what’s going on here? Like I prayed, I got the offers. What is going on? Um, I even paid for a remark [00:13:10] that year. I had to, like, work. By the way, I’ve had like seven jobs. I’ll get into that later, [00:13:15] but I had to work during my gap year because I didn’t want to, like, burden my parents with the finances. [00:13:20] Um, I had to remark my paper. It was £200 at the time. £200 was a lot money. [00:13:25] I was like, oh, to remark a paper, but I wanted to make sure.

Payman Langroudi: And it came back 1% off again, [00:13:30] 1% off.

Yewande Oduwole: Uh, so.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I guess you’re going to tell me then you had [00:13:35] a great year and then you realised what God’s big plan was, or something like this. But. But we [00:13:40] were talking about Uchenna before. Yes. And I had Uchenna on this pod and [00:13:45] she said to me, her sister passed away in her 30s. And [00:13:50] I said, and she was a very religious person. Yeah. And I said to her, did that not shake [00:13:55] your belief? Of course. And she said it strengthened her belief that I don’t understand, [00:14:00] because I do understand your your one. If the following year you had this great year. Yeah. You found yourself. [00:14:05] And that was God’s big plan or whatever. But what was God’s big plan in taking her sister? And [00:14:10] it’s really interesting that if your dreams come true, if your prayers come true, that [00:14:15] strengthens your resolve. But if your prayers don’t come true, that strengthens your resolve [00:14:20] again. And that’s the interesting part of it for me, that second part.

Yewande Oduwole: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: So explain that to me. [00:14:25]

Yewande Oduwole: So there’s a scripture in the Bible, Proverbs three verse 5 to 6, which says, trust in the Lord [00:14:30] with all your heart. Do not lean on your own understanding. Um, seek his will in all you do, and he will show you [00:14:35] which path to take.

Payman Langroudi: He moves in mysterious ways.

Yewande Oduwole: So I think the answer to that question [00:14:40] is that there is a greater understanding that we don’t have. And if you sit in that moment, [00:14:45] for example, Uchenna, may God bless her soul, she in that [00:14:50] moment when her sister passed away, she didn’t know what was going on. You know, death [00:14:55] is something nobody wants, but God sees it all and [00:15:00] he understands. And I think that’s where we talk about faith and it comes in. It is comforting. And [00:15:05] from that, her legacy lives on. You don’t know what that could, could [00:15:10] drive. So I think give me give me another example.

Payman Langroudi: A child is born [00:15:15] three days later, a bomb drops on him and he dies. It just happened. So many, so many children have died [00:15:20] that way in Palestine. Apparently there’s something like 300 children who were born after [00:15:25] October the 7th that died today. Yeah. When you look at that, what [00:15:30] do you literally just outsource that to God? Moves in mysterious ways? No, obviously. [00:15:35] How do you feel about that?

Yewande Oduwole: Things like that. It’s it. Obviously it breaks my [00:15:40] heart and what’s happening in Palestine.

Payman Langroudi: But the god, the God part of it. I’ll tell you what. Muslims, Muslims [00:15:45] say something like this. They say you saw that? Yeah. That child [00:15:50] was innocent. That child’s got going directly to heaven. But you saw that. And [00:15:55] so if you don’t learn from that, that’s your test. Yeah. [00:16:00] That’s what Muslims say about that. Yeah. What do you think?

Yewande Oduwole: God gives us free will. And we cannot [00:16:05] control what humans do. Like, for example, the people that are [00:16:10] obviously bombing and the world leaders, they’ve been given free will. And that’s the thing about Christianity. We believe that everyone [00:16:15] has been given this free will. So you can’t necessarily control what other people do, but it’s [00:16:20] how you respond to it. So it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Similar.

Yewande Oduwole: It’s it’s so [00:16:25] tricky and I don’t have all the answers. But what I do believe is that there is power [00:16:30] in faith and prayer, and not all the time it’s going to go the way you want. You know, I wish I could pray [00:16:35] today and end everything that’s going on in Palestine. But again, it’s so complicated [00:16:40] and there is an element of free will. And ultimately [00:16:45] God sees it all and he knows the final plan. So.

Payman Langroudi: But not to mention [00:16:50] in that war, both sides think God is on their side. Yeah. [00:16:55] Both sides. Both sides deeply believe that. Yeah. And so, you know, religion. [00:17:00] You know, I don’t have to spell it out for you. There’s all sorts of problems with religion, of [00:17:05] course.

Yewande Oduwole: And we could talk about religion for ages, but it’s not the purpose of the podcast. And I know, I’m [00:17:10] so sorry. No, no, no, I know, but it’s one of these things like religion can cause [00:17:15] wars. But the thing about religion, there’s a difference between religion and relationship. Religion. Religion [00:17:20] is where people are like, you can’t do this, you can’t do that. You’ve got to act in this way. [00:17:25] But I believe in like a relationship with God, and I see.

Payman Langroudi: You believe in.

Yewande Oduwole: Karma. [00:17:30] Karma? Oh. I [00:17:35] feel like I if you do good, you can’t always expect good to come [00:17:40] back to you. Like good things happen to bad people, you know? And it’s one of these things I think you. [00:17:45] I believe in just having control over what you do and not worrying. Oh, if I do [00:17:50] this, is this going to happen to me? Like like you said in the beginning, I, I quite a positive [00:17:55] person. My mindset is that if this makes me happy, I’m going to [00:18:00] do it. Okay. Somebody else like, for example, I was talking to my friend about this the other day. [00:18:05] I’m the kind of person I will help other people, right? You know, if someone needs [00:18:10] you and you know I need connection with this person, or I want this job or. Yeah. Me too. Me too. Yeah. [00:18:15] I was the person in uni I would give people like. I remember there was this top secret [00:18:20] revision bundle that you had to pay for. I’d be like, oh, I’ve got it, you know, have it. [00:18:25] You know, I believe in an abundance mentality where everybody can win, but I [00:18:30] know there are people that I will do stuff for them that they will never do for me. But if I got so bogged [00:18:35] down by, oh, this person’s not going to do this for me, why should I do it for them? I think that it [00:18:40] can just, you know, cause so much negativity. So yes.

Payman Langroudi: You wouldn’t be [00:18:45] true to yourself, right?

Yewande Oduwole: 100%. And I think if you are true to yourself in everything that you do, [00:18:50] naturally, good things will come.

Payman Langroudi: To you about the other part of it, the [00:18:55] awards. Oh, yeah. And, you know, congratulations. Yeah. A couple of things I [00:19:00] want to talk about awards. Number one, were you tactical about winning this award [00:19:05] like is because I get the feeling that you can’t win it without being tactical. Like, did you call up a bunch [00:19:10] of people and find out what it is? What does it take to win the award? Did you what [00:19:15] did you do? What did you do to win? If, let’s say there’s someone else, there’s a young Dental student right now listening to this. [00:19:20] Yeah. And he’s thinking, I want to win an award. What did you do to win [00:19:25] the award? And number two, do you have empathy with a large group of [00:19:30] people who say, you know, these awards are divisive? Um, [00:19:35] there’s a top dentist somewhere who would never enter awards. And now, now, now, now [00:19:40] they’re telling him the top dentist in your town is this other guy.

Yewande Oduwole: Oh, [00:19:45] Awards. I think firstly, for the first part of the question, I [00:19:50] didn’t call people up. I didn’t I didn’t even know I was going to win. Like, I, people were [00:19:55] telling me, oh, did you know you were going to win? Do you have so many contacts? No, none of that. I literally followed the. [00:20:00]

Payman Langroudi: The guidelines.

Yewande Oduwole: The guidelines and just.

Payman Langroudi: Ticked them off.

Yewande Oduwole: Literally. I’m that kind of person where [00:20:05] I would go through everything. Okay. So they asked for you need to talk about your, you know, clinical [00:20:10] skills. You have to I put a case in there that I’ve completed, um, what you do outside of dentistry, [00:20:15] any charitable work I’ve done volunteering in Ghana. But I did that. I didn’t do it [00:20:20] because I wanted I wanted to enter into a war later. But that’s just what I did whilst I was in uni. [00:20:25]

Payman Langroudi: Interestingly, I was talking to one of the judges and he was saying more than half the entries get thrown out because they just don’t [00:20:30] don’t answer the questions on the form. Literally more than.

Yewande Oduwole: Half. That’s crazy. So [00:20:35] you can win an award if you just follow. Yeah, even my friend. I [00:20:40] encouraged her to apply for her practice and she followed the guidelines and they [00:20:45] ended up winning as well. Oh, cool. So she, you know, so you don’t have to be. Some have [00:20:50] loads of Instagram followers. People think it’s about Instagram followers or who you know. No, just follow [00:20:55] the guidelines, make sure it looks good. Your presentation I literally did like [00:21:00] a.

Payman Langroudi: Pretty.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. The judges, they’re giving up their time to read these awards. They don’t get [00:21:05] paid for it. Yeah, they literally have to volunteer to go through all these stand out. You need to stand out. Yeah, [00:21:10] I put together I think it was like 30 page PowerPoint presentation.

Payman Langroudi: 30. Okay.

Yewande Oduwole: That’s good. 30 [00:21:15] page PowerPoint presentation highlighting everything that I’ve done in my career. You [00:21:20] know what I do outside of dentistry and my work with the Black Dental Network, my volunteering [00:21:25] podcasts I’ve been on and all these things. I think [00:21:30] being a dentist, obviously it’s a given. We’re all going to be, you know, [00:21:35] I hope we all aspire to have great clinical dentistry. That’s a [00:21:40] given. Everyone’s going to be good. It’s like when you go to university, you all have good grades, you know. So [00:21:45] to enter, it’s given that you do good dentistry. I think what the judges are after, they want to [00:21:50] know, okay. Apart from that, what makes you a well-rounded dentist, [00:21:55] by the way?

Payman Langroudi: By the way, I went to the awards. Yeah, after the BCD, it was on the same night, [00:22:00] and the FMC did a fantastic job. The last time I’d been [00:22:05] was like 5 or 6 years ago. All right. And it was, it was, you know, they call it the Oscars of dentistry. [00:22:10] It literally felt like the Oscars.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, we’re.

Payman Langroudi: Talking Grosvenor House 1000 [00:22:15] people. Yeah. The production quality. I mean, it was [00:22:20] just it was just a beautiful, beautiful setting. You know, it was really was beautiful. And I came away from [00:22:25] it. You know, I don’t particularly give a damn about awards one way or the other, you know? But I came away [00:22:30] from it thinking I’m going to that every year.

Yewande Oduwole: Because.

Payman Langroudi: It was almost the gathering of the year. [00:22:35] Yeah. And and why not at the gathering of the year? Celebrate success. I’m not hating [00:22:40] on it. Of course I’m asking is, do you have empathy with the people who do not [00:22:45] like it?

Yewande Oduwole: 100%. And I, I, I know a dentist. [00:22:50] He applied the year before I did, and I wanted him to win so badly. Like, because [00:22:55] he’s so amazing. His work’s amazing, you know? And I really emphasised that these [00:23:00] people that do amazing dentistry, they won’t always get the award. And I’m just like, it [00:23:05] shouldn’t be like that, you know. But then I think that’s where you have to kind of be like, I don’t need this [00:23:10] award. Even if I didn’t win, I still feel good in myself.

Payman Langroudi: Um, are you in the top 50 as well? [00:23:15]

Yewande Oduwole: Yes. Are you? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s was another divisive issue.

Yewande Oduwole: That was that [00:23:20] was in 2022. But again, it’s because I choose to put myself out there. Sure. And [00:23:25] at the end of the day.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me, do you take these back to your mom and say, look, mom, my.

Yewande Oduwole: Mom’s [00:23:30] really proud. No.

Payman Langroudi: I think that look, if I had ever won. I’ve never won an award. But if I’d [00:23:35] ever won an award, I feel like that would be the most fun moment. Taking it back to mom.

Yewande Oduwole: And [00:23:40] that’s what I do it for, to be like, look, mom. And she’s so proud. She’s telling [00:23:45] all her friends she’s posting on Facebook, telling all the aunties and uncles and just that feeling of just knowing [00:23:50] that the.

Payman Langroudi: Conclusion of her struggle. Yes. I love that.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, I do love that. [00:23:55] And I and even if you know these awards, for me, it’s just I [00:24:00] do it for knowing that I’ve made my parents proud. And regardless, [00:24:05] I don’t want people to listen to this and feel like, ah, I need to get an award to feel like, [00:24:10] validated. You are validated if you do great dentistry, if you care about your [00:24:15] patients, patience. If you love dentistry, if you’re if you’re a great dentist, you do not need an award. So [00:24:20] I don’t want to feel like I am saying, oh, you know, you [00:24:25] need an award to be the best dentist, you know? So I get where you’re coming from, and there’s so many dentists [00:24:30] out there that do not have the best young dentist title, but you are still a fantastic, amazing [00:24:35] dentist. Um, yeah, because it is problematic.

Payman Langroudi: Dental [00:24:40] school in Plymouth Peninsula? Yes.

Yewande Oduwole: Peninsula [00:24:45] Dental School. How did you feel.

Payman Langroudi: When you got there? Um, from the sort of workload perspective, [00:24:50] because I was talking to my buddies last night and I was telling them dentistry [00:24:55] was the hardest goddamn thing I’d ever like. They were all saying A-levels was the hardest thing [00:25:00] they’ve ever done.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, but.

Payman Langroudi: I felt dentistry was harder than A-levels.

Yewande Oduwole: Oh, gosh. Honestly, [00:25:05] I found it really hard. I did the International Baccalaureate. I was a bit more prepared [00:25:10] because you have to do IB, you do six instead of four A-levels. [00:25:15] So when I got to dentistry, when I got to dental school, firstly Plymouth, I didn’t. I wanted [00:25:20] to be in a city. Like I said, I applied, I wanted to be in Manchester, Liverpool, these big cities, Birmingham. And then when I got [00:25:25] Plymouth, I was like, where? Where is this place? But I was happy. I got you, you get what you’re given that [00:25:30] the second time round I applied. That was the only. What did.

Payman Langroudi: You think of it when you got.

Yewande Oduwole: There? I just thought.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:25:35] were in middle of nowhere.

Yewande Oduwole: I thought I was in the middle of nowhere.

Payman Langroudi: The naval base, whatever.

Yewande Oduwole: Literally. [00:25:40] But I grew to love it. Yeah. And I’m glad I went to Plymouth. Um, those [00:25:45] five years, I look back at dental school. Honestly. Amazing. Um. Imagine [00:25:50] no one else can say that they. Well, if you went to Plymouth, you can say. But you studied by [00:25:55] the sea, would go out to the beach. And it was really lovely place to study. And I made amazing [00:26:00] friends there. We still we’re still friends till this day. Um, and that’s [00:26:05] where I did a lot of my YouTube videos in my room.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s where it started.

Yewande Oduwole: That’s where it started. [00:26:10] So as soon as I got in, I said to myself, I want to. I’ve made it now [00:26:15] into dental school. There’s probably loads of other young dentists, especially, you know, young black [00:26:20] female dentists that they don’t have anyone to look up to. Like I was saying [00:26:25] before we started this podcast. Doctor Uchenna Okoye, she was one of the first black female [00:26:30] dentists I saw on a Sensodyne advert. And I saw her. I was like, oh my gosh, someone [00:26:35] that looks like me, I can do this. So that’s why I said I need to put myself [00:26:40] out there.

Payman Langroudi: It was that influential that seeing someone who looks like you made [00:26:45] you think, I can do this. It really was that.

Yewande Oduwole: Representation is.

Payman Langroudi: Key.

Yewande Oduwole: Because [00:26:50] if you don’t see someone that looks like you, you kind of feel or script.

Payman Langroudi: Yourself [00:26:55] in other directions.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. And even in dental school, I think I was one of two black people there. [00:27:00] So it’s. Yeah, I wrote an article about this [00:27:05] on dentistry. Co.uk during black. It was me, Doctor Media and Chinwe. We wrote an [00:27:10] article on Black Lives Matter. Yeah, during Black Lives Matter time on the importance of representation. [00:27:15] Um, so that was a big deal for me. That’s why I put myself out [00:27:20] there on YouTube to make these videos. And since then, I’ve had so [00:27:25] many people, like, reach out to me like you, and you’ve helped me get into dental school. Thank you for your video. [00:27:30] And that feeling alone made it all worth it. Yeah. [00:27:35] So what about.

Payman Langroudi: Just from the, you know, being away from home for the first time and, like, [00:27:40] were you the party animal type? Were you not? Were you bookworm? [00:27:45] Who were you at dental school? Did you find were you were you passing exams every [00:27:50] time? First time or.

Yewande Oduwole: I’m a bit of both. I like to say I’m a social butterfly. [00:27:55] But when it’s time to study up, you won’t find me. I’ll be in my room.

Payman Langroudi: Did you pass your exams? [00:28:00]

Yewande Oduwole: Um, there was one, actually. The medical emergency. One. I remember this, I remember I [00:28:05] failed it because I was doing my chest compressions too lightly. So I had to do that one again. [00:28:10] But I wasn’t like, you know, top of the class or anything. I’d get by. I’d [00:28:15] get I’ll do what needed to be done to get to get through to the next bit. Thank God I didn’t have to like retake [00:28:20] a year whilst in dental school. Um, so I did what was needed. And [00:28:25] during my time in dental school as part of a choir gospel choir again, um, my [00:28:30] faith, I’d go every Thursday. We had like Bible study fellowship. So that really grounded me. [00:28:35] And I also ran an eyebrow threading business in uni. Really? Yes. So [00:28:40] I wrote that in my personal statement, actually, the manual dexterity aspect. I taught myself how to thread [00:28:45] eyebrows in secondary school, so I’d be on the playground, sort of like threading eyebrows. [00:28:50] They’d pay me like £3 per eyebrow. And then in uni I put the price up a bit. So I’d had that and I bought [00:28:55] like this whole. I was like the main eyebrow lady in Plymouth, where people would come to [00:29:00] me from like different courses to to thread their eyebrows. So I had that little business going [00:29:05] on on the side and the.

Payman Langroudi: Confidence to do that. Did you get that from your year out working [00:29:10] in retail?

Yewande Oduwole: Oh yeah. So I like to I’m a very hard [00:29:15] working person. Like that’s one thing I would whatever it is, [00:29:20] I’ve been a cleaner I’ve worked in. Yeah. Derriford hospital during.

Payman Langroudi: Covid.

Yewande Oduwole: So [00:29:25] that was in the pandemic. Um, I stayed in Plymouth and I decided to work in the hospital. [00:29:30] They needed people there. In my year out, I worked in retail in All Saints in Stratford. [00:29:35] Okay. And then I worked in Apple and.

Payman Langroudi: One of those kids with [00:29:40] the t shirts.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. Literally, you’d walk into Apple. I’d be the person there. Give me, give me.

Payman Langroudi: Some [00:29:45] takeaways you got from retail. Because I was 17, my parents said you’re a spoilt bitch. [00:29:50] Go work. Yeah. They they made me work in Oxford Street. Oh, [00:29:55] wow. I only lasted two weeks to say the truth. Did you? But I learned so much. Yeah. And the primary [00:30:00] lesson I learned was I never want to be the guy who works in Oxford Street. You know, like that, you know. [00:30:05] Because I was spoilt little 17 year old getting everything, getting everything I wanted. [00:30:10] And then I saw, wow, this is like people’s lives, people’s careers. And [00:30:15] I’ve told this story before on the pod, but I used to spend more than I used to earn.

Yewande Oduwole: Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Like [00:30:20] every day. Like I’d take a taxi to work. I’d have steak at lunch. I [00:30:25] Payman go shopping. Whatever. Like, literally, like, [00:30:30] spent more than I was earning. But that was a lesson in itself. Yeah, the lesson into what a [00:30:35] bitch I was, number one. And and you know, the fact that there were other people there who had their [00:30:40] whole lives was that. And you know how lucky I was. I didn’t realise that there was a 17 [00:30:45] year old doing anything to you. So go on, tell me takeaways you got from working in Apple or [00:30:50] working in Allsaints? What kind of takeaways did you take?

Yewande Oduwole: I feel like everyone should work in retail. I felt that it [00:30:55] really made me see the value of just communication [00:31:00] with people. It’s really helped in dentistry, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember in All Saints we had a [00:31:05] target. We had to sell X number of leather jackets during the week and having [00:31:10] to really just you, you had to be a people person. You had to. I hate being salesy, but [00:31:15] it really made me realise the importance of just speaking [00:31:20] to people that you might not necessarily speak to.

Payman Langroudi: Of all types.

Yewande Oduwole: Of all types. You know, when you’re working [00:31:25] in retail, you meet all kinds of people and you have to have great customer service, [00:31:30] um, which is transferable in dentistry? A lot of dentistry is all about the communication. [00:31:35] Um, and it just taught me the importance of just hard work. And there [00:31:40] were people there that were like double my age and they were grafting. And I was thinking, oh, I don’t want to be working [00:31:45] here in like ten years time. So I think it just about Apple.

Payman Langroudi: What’s it like working for [00:31:50] Apple?

Yewande Oduwole: Apple. Apple was great. That was one of the best jobs. Their ethos [00:31:55] with Apple they hire people based on personality. So you don’t have to know everything about [00:32:00] how to fix a the phone. They will teach you that. Yeah. So literally when you go into Apple, you realise that [00:32:05] everybody’s there. Really. They’re there to help you. So I remember the interview stages of [00:32:10] Apple. It was really it was a lot of like teamwork, communication. And they [00:32:15] want their brand to be built on the people. And I think when you go into that shop, [00:32:20] you can’t stand there for more than five minutes without someone coming up to ask you, do you need help? [00:32:25] Are you okay?

Payman Langroudi: And they literally teach you that. Like if they look out on the floor for people.

Yewande Oduwole: They hire [00:32:30] people that are like the type.

Payman Langroudi: Of person that I.

Yewande Oduwole: Like that already. Um, what.

Payman Langroudi: About the targets? I mean, [00:32:35] do they? You said leather jackets are awesome at Apple. Are they like, we’re making £3 million a day?

Yewande Oduwole: Apple. [00:32:40] They’re already making money. So it wasn’t target. They care about customer experience.

Payman Langroudi: And how [00:32:45] much does one of those big stores make a day? Or do they not share that with you?

Yewande Oduwole: Oh, I didn’t they didn’t [00:32:50] really share that with us. I mean, I but I went there because I needed to make money during my gap year. I didn’t [00:32:55] really go into the business side of all of it, but probably like a fair amount.

Payman Langroudi: I was thinking about that because [00:33:00] I saw some stat that per square metre, an Apple Store makes more money than any other [00:33:05] store. But what’s crazy about that is they’re giant stores. It’s not [00:33:10] like they’re tiny stores. The number two is Tiffany’s.

Yewande Oduwole: Oh, really? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So Tiffany’s, you can see it’s a small [00:33:15] store. Expensive products. You can understand it. Yeah. But Apple. Then I was thinking about it, and I thought, I’ve never [00:33:20] in any other situation do I go in and out of the store and spend as [00:33:25] much as I, because I go in knowing what I’m going to buy. So like I literally walk in saying, I’m looking for a MacBook [00:33:30] Pro one seven minutes later, I’m walking out having spent £2,000 [00:33:35] or whatever it costs, right? Yeah. So you can understand it when you think of it that way, but just [00:33:40] the size of those stores. And then, and, you know, the American ones are even bigger. Yeah. So so [00:33:45] interesting. So okay, then you did.

Yewande Oduwole: Um, [00:33:50] VAT throwback.

Payman Langroudi: I love that you do.

Yewande Oduwole: You know what? I [00:33:55] wanted to work in London. And then again, I feel like I always end up where I [00:34:00] don’t pick my first choice. Always the.

Payman Langroudi: Bridesmaid.

Yewande Oduwole: Literally. I ended up in Gravesend [00:34:05] and I know Gravesend. There was a lot of deprived. It was a deprived area and I think it was the [00:34:10] best place I ended up because I did a lot of experience. Yeah. Experience and nitty gritty [00:34:15] dentistry. I loved my educational supervisors, Raymond [00:34:20] and Sarita. Raymond was a dentist. He’d been working for over 40 years in the same practice. He’s [00:34:25] retired now, but he really took me under his wing and [00:34:30] taught you. Taught me so much about just dentistry [00:34:35] and working in the same practice. I think there’s beauty in working in the [00:34:40] same practice for a long time. You see your failures for sure. Um, which [00:34:45] is why the practice I’m at at the moment, I’ve been there for a few years now, and it’s quite nice to see your work [00:34:50] coming back and learning from it. Uh, so yeah, my foundation year was was [00:34:55] was brilliant. And it was during Covid actually.

Payman Langroudi: So actually you were one [00:35:00] of those Covid Covid babies.

Yewande Oduwole: Covid baby. Pandemic baby.

Payman Langroudi: So your experience level was [00:35:05] less than most. By the time you came out of dental school, is that right or not?

Yewande Oduwole: I [00:35:10] feel going to Peninsula Dental School. We had an advantage because unlike a lot of dental [00:35:15] schools, we have to see the patient from the very beginning and treatment plan everything as [00:35:20] you would in practice. Whereas I know other dental schools they have.

Payman Langroudi: This is a bit different in that sense. Department. So you’ve seen [00:35:25] a little bit seen.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, I feel like I had actually had good experience. So I’m really grateful to Peninsula [00:35:30] for that. And there are quite a modern dental school where they teach us photography and like the [00:35:35] importance of these things. So I was already quite I take pictures of my work. Um, so [00:35:40] I felt like I went into foundation training with a good understanding. But [00:35:45] like everyone knows, dental school doesn’t teach you everything. You got to learn a lot on the job. [00:35:50] Yeah. Um, but during the pandemic, we had to wait for like fallow [00:35:55] times and AGP procedures. We had to get the mask. [00:36:00] Thinking about it. Yeah. So I remember I was so excited to get fit tested because [00:36:05] I could finally do an AGP procedure. Oh those times.

Payman Langroudi: So this is your.

Yewande Oduwole: This [00:36:10] is my. Yeah. So it was it was like before I actually got to do dentistry [00:36:15] was a lot of hoops to go through. And after you did the procedure you’d have to wait [00:36:20] outside for a bit for the room to clear. So did you not.

Payman Langroudi: Consider staying on in that practice [00:36:25] or you just really wanted to get back to London?

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, I wanted to get back to London. Um, but they [00:36:30] they wanted me to stay, but I think I did. I did my time in Gravesend [00:36:35] and the, the supervisor that was seen me, he was retiring as well. And, [00:36:40] um, the practice I ended up going to actually I remember two green Dental. It wasn’t [00:36:45] it was like 40 minutes, 30 minutes away. I remember during my [00:36:50] foundation year I had a case coming up, um, a composite bonding case, [00:36:55] and I wanted. I was literally doing these cases like, to, to, like, practice. [00:37:00] But then we didn’t have a certain composite that I wanted to use enamel. We’ll [00:37:05] say it’s enamel. So I remember contacting, [00:37:10] um, Rajiv, which one was it called?

Payman Langroudi: Which was?

Yewande Oduwole: It was impressed, but also [00:37:15] reliable. So I wanted to do the case, but I didn’t have the composite. And I wanted to, you [00:37:20] know, obviously do it nicely. So I contacted the practice, and he actually gave me the composite and [00:37:25] guided me through the case. So I think the fact that he helped [00:37:30] me through that, my first case in PhD year, I was like, this seems like someone that [00:37:35] will invest time and knowledge into me.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, Rajiv, I [00:37:40] was very, very, very impressed with him when I spoke to him. I grabbed him during [00:37:45] bacd and we recorded a little 15 minute section.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. [00:37:50]

Payman Langroudi: And I mean, I know who he is. I’ve been following him. But I was very impressed with this. Just like [00:37:55] curiosity of the guy and the amount of different things he does. [00:38:00] And I haven’t been to the new one boutique. It looks beautiful. [00:38:05] Yeah, it looks. And it’s a sister as well, right?

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. So, um, they [00:38:10] have their they have three practices and they’re such great businesses.

Payman Langroudi: Called [00:38:15] two.

Yewande Oduwole: Green. No, no. Two green. Dental. Two green boutique and the figs Marsh Dental. Okay, so they’re all different, [00:38:20] but the way they’re very meticulous with the way they handle their business. And they [00:38:25] put a lot into their associates. So a lot of young associates, I would.

Payman Langroudi: Pay attention [00:38:30] to the non-clinical learnings in a place like that. Yeah, [00:38:35] yeah. Because it’s it’s a unique setup that it’s such a big [00:38:40] practice. And, you know, he’s after quality and he’s after bringing [00:38:45] people up, bringing people through. And I look back on all the jobs I’ve done as [00:38:50] a dentist. Not that many because I quit at whatever it was, but but out of those jobs, [00:38:55] I think back, and I think I learned this from that guy. I learned that I learned not to [00:39:00] do this from that person. Yeah. Mhm. Um, and I’m sure, you know, he’s great on clinical [00:39:05] because he is he’s one of those guys who likes to do a lot of everything.

Yewande Oduwole: Oh he loves clinical. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But what [00:39:10] I was going to say was try and learn the other side from someone like Rajiv, you know, because, um, he [00:39:15] seems to do it sort of effortlessly from the outside. I don’t know whether he’s like a swan. He’s, like, running [00:39:20] quickly under the water.

Yewande Oduwole: No, he’s not bothered. He he just does things. And I think we all kind of look at him. [00:39:25] Oh, he just gets on with it. And he loves his work. And I’ve learned so much [00:39:30] in that practice. Does he go for awards? No. So I actually applied for the practice. [00:39:35] So I put together a presentation for best team. No [00:39:40] input from Rajiv. But do you see what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: So something like that. He could win an award? Yeah, I’m sure if he went [00:39:45] for it, he’d execute on that as well. Right.

Yewande Oduwole: But just not bothered. Yeah. And this [00:39:50] is the thing you can. It just depends how you like. If you’re not bothered and you know you’re doing good dentistry. You don’t [00:39:55] really need the award. But I thought this is a great team. I’m going to put together a presentation. And we [00:40:00] ended up winning. So. But you did win. Yeah we won.

Payman Langroudi: And is it a happy team?

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. [00:40:05] Honestly, I love my team. And I think this is why I’ve stayed in the practice for three years now, going on four [00:40:10] years, like, me and my nurse were like yin and yang. She. I basically trained she’s [00:40:15] basically like a dentist. So if my rubber dam is slightly [00:40:20] not on properly, or if, you know I haven’t done the last bit of polishing, she’d call me [00:40:25] up on it. She’ll be like, oh, you wonder, you haven’t done this, or we’ll both look at it together. [00:40:30] So I love the fact that I think it’s so important to have a good nurse by your side. [00:40:35] And she we constantly build each other up. She started not knowing how to speak [00:40:40] proper English, so I helped her with her English. And where’s she from? She’s from Romania. Simona. So [00:40:45] we we we really we’ve grown together. And I think there’s a beauty in having someone. [00:40:50] You work, you’re in a room with your nurse every all the time, you know. So it’s so important to have that [00:40:55] relationship where they can call you out. And I like that. I’m like, please call me out if [00:41:00] you think there’s something that’s you call your patients. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So do [00:41:05] you call them patients or does your nurse or does reception?

Yewande Oduwole: So I, I [00:41:10] need to get out of this habit, but I’ll stay behind after work. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Call [00:41:15] everyone from the previous day or that day.

Yewande Oduwole: Not everyone. But, like, if I.

Payman Langroudi: Wanted 2 or 3 key people.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. See how they’re going, and [00:41:20] they really appreciate it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I used to get my nurse to do it.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, but it’s [00:41:25] different when it comes from the dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, of course, of course. But what was amazing was how much she enjoyed that job. [00:41:30] Yeah. She used to love that job. You know, she said people are so appreciative when you call them 100%. [00:41:35] And and you know, it came down to it started off with me saying, all right, call this guy, this [00:41:40] guy and that guy. And then obviously you can decide who to call like that. And then she used to [00:41:45] come in every day and tell me, oh, this guy was so happy that I called him. It’s a lovely thing.

Yewande Oduwole: It’s nice. [00:41:50] And patients really, really appreciate that. But then it gets to a point where I’d be at work because [00:41:55] we work in shifts at two green, 2 to 8.

Payman Langroudi: 8 to 2. Yes, 8 to 2, two eight.

Yewande Oduwole: Exactly. [00:42:00] So Monday I do 2 to 8. Tuesday I do 730 in the morning to eight at night. Well, Wednesday [00:42:05] is my day off, which is today, Thursday 730 in the morning till 130.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:42:10] it’s are you a four day week?

Yewande Oduwole: Four days. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I like that [00:42:15] too.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. You need a day to just. Yeah. Do stuff like this. Um, [00:42:20] so I’d be at work. Let’s say I finish at eight. Sometimes I won’t leave till like 10 or 11 because I’m doing [00:42:25] treatment plans. Extra stuff. Treatment plans, calling patients. But then I [00:42:30] like to leave knowing it’s done. I don’t like to bring things from the next day into another day [00:42:35] that really messes me up. I like to do what’s needed on that day and [00:42:40] then get it done. So yeah, the shift patterns at the moment, everyone’s like, oh, how do you do it? But it works. [00:42:45] Right now I feel like I haven’t got a family yet, so I can afford to be [00:42:50] at work till that time. But obviously there’s going to be a time where it’s not going to be sustainable. [00:42:55]

Payman Langroudi: What kind of dentistry do you do? Is it all cosmetic? [00:43:00]

Yewande Oduwole: No. So I do a lot of general dentistry. Cosmetic dentistry. I like [00:43:05] to be good at all the basics. So I love restorative dentistry I [00:43:10] love endo. Do you. Yeah, I really I actually do. I actually considered going down the endo route, but [00:43:15] um yeah I love it. Endo um. [00:43:20]

Payman Langroudi: Do you take out wisdom teeth?

Yewande Oduwole: So that’s, that’s my limitation. The extractions. Yeah, [00:43:25] yeah. Surgical implants, that kind of stuff. Yeah. That’s [00:43:30] that’s not my forte, but restorative. Onlays. Um, Endo. [00:43:35]

Payman Langroudi: Are you getting more comprehensive as well? Like, are you doing more than sort of single tooth [00:43:40] quadrant. Have you done any, like, full mouth stuff or.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, definitely. Those are my favourite cases. Cases? [00:43:45] Yeah. Where you’re able to. Definitely. Yeah. That’s good I [00:43:50] feel the thing is you need mentors to help you with these kind of things. So [00:43:55] I’ve completed a diploma in restorative and aesthetic Dentistry, which won a [00:44:00] Smile Academy, Gin and Kirsch and many courses. So I think [00:44:05] by doing these courses, developing my skills, you gain the confidence to do these kind of tough cases. [00:44:10] And obviously there’s going to be times where things don’t go to plan. That’s where you lean on [00:44:15] your mentors and people to advise you on what to do. Would you say.

Payman Langroudi: To a patient when [00:44:20] it’s the first time you’re doing something? Do you tell them?

Yewande Oduwole: Obviously you want [00:44:25] them to have confidence in you like it’s a massive problem.

Payman Langroudi: We were thinking talking about this. I was talking to Simon Thackeray [00:44:30] about this yesterday. Yeah. First time you’re doing something, you’ve got to do it right so [00:44:35] that you get to your second time or your third time or your fourth time. Yeah. I found back in [00:44:40] my day I telling the patient that I have a mentor was [00:44:45] was really the right move. But you need a mentor in order to do [00:44:50] that. Yeah.

Yewande Oduwole: No. As a foundation dentist, I’d always say, you know, my supervisor will come and check this, but [00:44:55] when you’re a few years qualified and let’s say you’re just trying out this new thing you’ve learned on a course. Yeah. [00:45:00] To tell the patient that. Oh, by the way, I’ve just.

Payman Langroudi: But when was the first time you did six veneers on [00:45:05] someone?

Yewande Oduwole: Probably my first year out of foundation. Yeah, yeah. To [00:45:10] be fair, I told the patient because it was one of my friend’s friends. So I said, by the way, you’re [00:45:15] the first person I’m doing this for. And I think because she knew [00:45:20] the kind of person I was, I’m a bit of a perfectionist where I wouldn’t leave you with rubbish. [00:45:25] I would make sure that I’d get it right. So she had faith in me. But [00:45:30] if it’s someone that I just didn’t know at all, it might be a bit different. Um, so yeah, [00:45:35] I did that and she brought me more patience after that, after I did her case.

Payman Langroudi: I think one thing, [00:45:40] one thing as a dentist, right, is some people make the mistake of thinking that [00:45:45] confidence breeds confidence in the like. Let’s [00:45:50] say you’re looking at a case. Yeah. Well, let’s leave it out of dentistry for a moment. [00:45:55] Yeah. If I’m talking to a lawyer and I ask him a question, one of the responses [00:46:00] I respect the most is I don’t know.

Yewande Oduwole: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I’d much [00:46:05] rather hear, I don’t know in a way. When someone says I don’t know it means you [00:46:10] do know what you do know. And you do know what you don’t know and you don’t know the answer [00:46:15] to this question. Yeah. Where you get the feeling that this guy’s just answering all my questions and reading [00:46:20] it off. Sometimes I’m thinking, is, is this guy’s timing just brilliant? You know, is he just talking? [00:46:25] It’s just, honey, just come out of his mouth, and I’m worried. I’m more worried about the guy who’s answering [00:46:30] everything than the person who says. I don’t know a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And so now [00:46:35] let’s translate it to dentistry. You don’t need to, to to project this. Fully [00:46:40] confident has all the answers. Thing is that that’s [00:46:45] not the key. And I’ve had some top world renowned experts here. Yeah. And [00:46:50] you know, they say the same thing when you tell people all the things that could go wrong [00:46:55] and what you think particularly might go wrong here, that’s not going to put the guy off. That’s going to make [00:47:00] the guy think this guy knows what he’s talking about. This guy’s got some experience, you know, like so. [00:47:05] But as a young dentist, it’s a troubling thing. Yeah. The other thing I noticed young dentists [00:47:10] make a mistake is they they almost download everything in their head [00:47:15] to the patient. Mhm. And that’s not your job. Your job is not to tell the patient [00:47:20] everything in your head. Your job is to say the right things in the right way to that [00:47:25] person. Yeah.

Yewande Oduwole: You should not overload the patient with too many options. Yeah. [00:47:30] Um, one of the courses that I feel has been really important in my career. Exam cycle [00:47:35] run by Asif Saeed. He teaches on that course to communicate [00:47:40] the right recommended option for the patient, rather than saying everything, everything [00:47:45] because they’re going to leave thinking, oh my gosh, what do I do? They’re still going to leave more confused [00:47:50] than when they came in. So I agree. And on that note of being a [00:47:55] young dentist and you know what? You don’t know, I’m very happy to say I don’t know this. I [00:48:00] need to seek help. I remember when I first started posting on Instagram, I was [00:48:05] so nervous to post my cases because I knew they weren’t polished, perfect, and I know a lot of young dentists. [00:48:10] They struggle with posting their work online because of the critique I’m. [00:48:15]

Payman Langroudi: Used to that, you know, like I’m amazed how few do know.

Yewande Oduwole: Because dentists are worried. [00:48:20]

Payman Langroudi: About other dentists.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, you know, you don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Mini smile makeover. We always have 30 delegates. [00:48:25] Yeah, we have a marketing bit. We always ask who here has a dental Instagram [00:48:30] page.

Yewande Oduwole: Maybe four because people are scared. And my favourite thing [00:48:35] to say is feel the fear, but do it anyway. Yeah. If you let fear paralyse [00:48:40] you, you’re not going to do it. And a lot of you know that saying the richest place is [00:48:45] the graveyard, because there’s just a lot of dreams that have just died there because of fear and what other people think. I [00:48:50] posted cases, if you look on my Instagram, if you go far back, there are cases I look at and I’m [00:48:55] like, oh, I should really delete this. But that was me. At a time where I was growing, I [00:49:00] was learning, I wrote a paragraph saying, oh, I could have done this better. And it was a reflection. And I think [00:49:05] the reason why people started following my journey is because I was just unapologetically myself [00:49:10] and just, I know I’m not here yet, but I am constantly improving, constantly [00:49:15] learning, constantly growing. So I think if you can be humble enough to know your limitations. [00:49:20]

Payman Langroudi: But what’s really interesting is that even some of the top guys [00:49:25] suffer with this dipesh Suffers with it. Hee hee hee. [00:49:30] Won’t like post.

Yewande Oduwole: Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Uh, and by the way, even less like [00:49:35] George the Dentist. He will. He will post here. But even George’s dentist. [00:49:40] There’s a guy better than him, right? So he could have that fear.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, of course, [00:49:45] but there’s always going to be someone better than you.

Payman Langroudi: But Kunal kind of gets around [00:49:50] this mentally in his own head. As in, this isn’t for dentists. This is for patients. [00:49:55] Yeah. And I don’t care what dentists think about it. But. And some people have that sort of, uh, that, [00:50:00] that chip in their head that can just switch off. Yeah. That anxiety.

Yewande Oduwole: It’s about your why [00:50:05] at the end of the day, when I started my page, I my why was to inspire students [00:50:10] and help them with their dental school applications. So a lot of my things [00:50:15] that I was posting was to help students then. Now it’s turned into, you know, I want to [00:50:20] speak to patients because when people come to see me, they’ve already got a glimpse of my personality [00:50:25] and who I am. From my page, I describe Instagram as like, if you’re going to a restaurant [00:50:30] and you’re going to look on their page to see, to get an expectation of what.

Payman Langroudi: You’re getting, the food.

Yewande Oduwole: Whatever, exactly. [00:50:35] So for dentists having your Instagram page, okay, you might want to post for [00:50:40] dentists to help other dentists clinically. But then again you may want to post for patients [00:50:45] so they know what to expect. A little preview into who you are. I want [00:50:50] a dentist, a patient to feel like they know me before they’ve stepped into my.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:50:55] what percentage of your new patients come from your Instagram? Is it [00:51:00] a large number a month or so? Are we talking 1 or 2?

Yewande Oduwole: So obviously, because [00:51:05] my Instagram is largely was set up for students and dentists, not really. But now I’m [00:51:10] seeing a lot more from like TikTok and um, yeah. So I get a couple a month from [00:51:15] like Instagram.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about TikTok. Yeah, because I’m having real [00:51:20] trouble with TikTok. I adore TikTok, adore it myself as a as a user. [00:51:25] I’m on it all the time. Too much? Yeah.

Yewande Oduwole: Really? What do you watch on TikTok?

Payman Langroudi: Whatever.

Yewande Oduwole: You [00:51:30] know what I mean. The For You page.

Payman Langroudi: My TikTok will give me, like, crap that your TikTok won’t give you. But [00:51:35] like, it’s funny because sometimes it gives you something that you don’t even know you were into. Yeah. Like [00:51:40] I’m into bent cops. I didn’t know that, but I am. He keeps [00:51:45] sending it to me and I keep watching it.

Yewande Oduwole: Oh my gosh.

Payman Langroudi: But dentistry on TikTok. Yeah. [00:51:50] Like dentistry on Instagram. We all kind of know what it is before and afters. It’s pretty stuff. Whatever. Then [00:51:55] on TikTok, to me so far, like the people who’ve got some traction with it, they’re [00:52:00] either, um, education sort of videos with, you know, pointing to stuff [00:52:05] behind you on a green screen or some sort of salacious kind of turkey [00:52:10] teeth story. You know something? Don’t do this. I’m a dentist. I’m telling you, don’t do this. [00:52:15] And the. And I’ve got a team of people working on TikTok for enlightened. Yeah, we’ve [00:52:20] got three agencies working on it right now. One on the shop, one on the grid one. It’s [00:52:25] a pain in the ass but getting nowhere with it, getting nowhere with it. Having real difficulty [00:52:30] having a brand work on TikTok. And then I see other brands exploding on TikTok. Yeah, so [00:52:35] I’m not going to stop, just like all of social media. Yeah, you kind of keep going, keep going 100%. [00:52:40] But what are your insights on TikTok?

Yewande Oduwole: Tiktok is all about organic content. Yeah, [00:52:45] people don’t like to see curated, well polished things on TikTok. You literally [00:52:50] have to just talk to the camera. I remember I was making a video. I was just walking to my friend’s [00:52:55] house, and I just wanted to make a video on, oh, you shouldn’t rinse your mouth out with toothpaste after [00:53:00] brushing. Yeah. Just simple information like that. And that got loads of views. So [00:53:05] I think when you make it too curated, people will swipe off. People love real stories [00:53:10] on TikTok. And what I.

Payman Langroudi: Love about it is it’s the content [00:53:15] is the driver of the reach. Yeah, it’s not about followers.

Yewande Oduwole: No. [00:53:20]

Payman Langroudi: That’s amazing. You can reach.

Yewande Oduwole: So many people. Like, you know.

Payman Langroudi: You just met Richard. Yeah. The [00:53:25] videographer. I would say Richard, you know. Dude, like, literally, you could reach 30 million people [00:53:30] if you made the right video. Yeah. It’s not about followers.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, people adore that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:53:35]

Yewande Oduwole: No, people like Shaadi Onkar. Yeah, they’re out there. Rona.

Payman Langroudi: Rona says she’s [00:53:40] getting much more growth out of tick tock.

Yewande Oduwole: Tick tock is the new thing now. Um, I feel like Instagram [00:53:45] is, you know, polished work or where people go to kind of get a gist of who you [00:53:50] are. But tick tock, that’s where you can get new clients. I had someone come and see me from Tick Tock [00:53:55] because they felt that they watched my video and they said, I felt like, yeah, I can relate to you [00:54:00] and you’re someone that I’d want to treat me. Um, so is that.

Payman Langroudi: The kind of video you’re doing? Sort of the educational [00:54:05] type educational? I’m a dentist. This is what I think. Yeah.

Yewande Oduwole: Also, like patients speaking [00:54:10] about their treatment.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. So it works. That works before, like, I [00:54:15] like.

Payman Langroudi: Reveal.

Yewande Oduwole: Reveal videos. People love that. People like to see [00:54:20] what’s going on behind the scenes in the surgery. So yeah, TikTok. If [00:54:25] I think a lot of people thought TikTok was just about dancing, I remember when it first came out, it’s not. That was years ago, but [00:54:30] it’s changed. It’s evolving. And social media is, I think not every dentist needs social [00:54:35] media. I always say this just because you don’t have social media doesn’t mean you’re not a great dentist. [00:54:40] It’s one of these things where the best dentist probably don’t even have social media, but it’s just getting yourself [00:54:45] out there and putting yourself on the forefront for people to find you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. So so when we [00:54:50] ask at the course, we say, who here has Dental, Instagram, whatever. [00:54:55] And four people put their hands up and then is it. Who here has Instagram. Yeah. [00:55:00] Who here goes on Instagram.

Yewande Oduwole: And everyone puts their hand. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s the thing right. [00:55:05] And like I’m looking at the number of hours I spend on TikTok personally. Yeah. You know like it.

Yewande Oduwole: Takes [00:55:10] 1.

Payman Langroudi: To 3 a.m.. I’m rotting my brain. I’m flicking through.

Yewande Oduwole: I’ve got a timer to [00:55:15] say how long I can be on Instagram for. Oh, really? My phone shuts off after, like an hour. What’s that [00:55:20] called? It’s just timer. You go on your iPhone.

Payman Langroudi: And just put a timer.

Yewande Oduwole: On. You put a timer? No, you. You can [00:55:25] put a restriction on an app. Oh. Can you. To tell you that you have to.

Payman Langroudi: Show me how. Yeah.

Yewande Oduwole: Because it [00:55:30] can be a slippery slope. Sometimes I’ll just post and I’ll come off it because I just don’t want to spend all [00:55:35] day scrolling. Yeah. Um, so, yeah. No. Instagram, TikTok. [00:55:40] The world of that and a lot of dentists have been actually coming to me to get them to help [00:55:45] with their social media. So currently I’m helping a dentist with his course, setting up his social media, [00:55:50] um, creating a presence on there. So are you charging him? Yeah, [00:55:55] because it’s my time. But, um.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about all of that then. Um, you’ve got a [00:56:00] couple of brand deals going. Going on, right? You’re working for Colgate? Yeah, [00:56:05] for dental protection. Mhm. Like, what is that brand ambassador. [00:56:10] Mhm.

Yewande Oduwole: So.

Payman Langroudi: So what do you have to do. What’s your side of the deal. What [00:56:15] do you have to do.

Yewande Oduwole: Obviously these companies, they want to, um, put themselves [00:56:20] out there. They want to have a positive, um, reputation so [00:56:25] they find someone that fits with their brand morals. And I like Colgate. Um, [00:56:30] and then you do a video together and.

Payman Langroudi: But what is it like a number of videos per [00:56:35] month. So you have a contract?

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. So you have a contract? It might be for reals. Yeah. [00:56:40] Um, it might be. You need to do this, uh, content for their page, [00:56:45] a TikTok video, um, a podcast. So we call it activity. [00:56:50] So the activity that you do, um, you get paid for it.

Payman Langroudi: And then are we going to see [00:56:55] you on, on a, on a Colgate ad? Is that.

Yewande Oduwole: Your dream.

Payman Langroudi: Come true?

Yewande Oduwole: Uh, maybe one day. [00:57:00] Maybe one day. Colgate. They don’t really do TV ads. It’s more Sensodyne that does that. [00:57:05] Um, but yeah, I like that stuff. I’m. Why not.

Payman Langroudi: Why not, why not? [00:57:10] I mean, you got into it yourself because of your channel, right?

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: There’s nothing wrong with [00:57:15] it. And then the protection. Similar. Yeah.

Yewande Oduwole: So I’ve done YouTube videos for [00:57:20] them. Um, obviously they want to try and get a lot of young dentists to to join them. [00:57:25] Um, and just because they need someone that has been in that position themselves, [00:57:30] if you just get, I don’t know, Mandy, from the dental protection team to, to say that it’s not [00:57:35] going to hit home the way it would somebody that’s gone through it. Um, and because I do a lot of [00:57:40] work with students and young dentists anyway, I guess I was their perfect poster girl. [00:57:45] And likewise, there’s other students as well that are following that same trajectory. Getting [00:57:50] the sponsorship deals. And I think with dentistry, there’s enough room for everyone to there’s so [00:57:55] many companies out there that need people to represent them in a positive way. Um, I do a lot of work [00:58:00] with my colleague Chinwe. So she’s doing stuff with. Um, do I remember there was a time where I was with dental protection. [00:58:05] She was promoting stuff for do so. Um, it wasn’t like a rivalry sort [00:58:10] of thing, but it’s just we you both have like a unique sense of [00:58:15] of where you can communicate with people. And I think that’s what the companies like for sure. [00:58:20] So yeah, I love I love doing that stuff.

Payman Langroudi: And you, I mean, you’ve been qualified. How long?

Yewande Oduwole: Four [00:58:25] years. 20.

Payman Langroudi: 20 I just feel like you’re so very connected in [00:58:30] four years.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, I was going to networking events as a student. Really? [00:58:35] I was a b, c d student rep. Oh. Were you? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I always tell those guys like that. [00:58:40] That is a good thing to be, man.

Yewande Oduwole: 100%. Any students listening, be involved. Yeah. [00:58:45] You know, I signed up for RDP. They were doing student awards. It’s funny [00:58:50] because.

Payman Langroudi: When I was a student, I wasn’t involved in anything. Nothing. I almost stayed away from [00:58:55] everything. And now my my advice to all students is get involved in all these.

Yewande Oduwole: Things.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:59:00] you can see it. You know, I remember Simon Chard was the the BCD rep. Yeah. Yeah. And you can see what [00:59:05] that did for him. You know, like, by the way, he’s a great guy.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. Of course.

Payman Langroudi: But you know, when you [00:59:10] watch that trajectory of second year dental student to president of the BCD and all [00:59:15] the things that he’s managed to do, you just realise all getting jobs. Yeah, 100%. [00:59:20] It’s so important for getting jobs and it’s who you.

Yewande Oduwole: Surround yourself with. So from that I was able [00:59:25] to connect with different dentists, get an insight into what’s going on. Even one of my YouTube videos [00:59:30] that I put so much work into, I got 30 dentists together to give advice to [00:59:35] students, dentists from America, dentists from the UK, and from [00:59:40] that video alone it was able to reach so many people and I was that student. [00:59:45] I was annoying student. I’ll message them and be like, hi, can I get you my YouTube video? Can I talk to you about this? I’d [00:59:50] be on the case, and I think there’s a point where you can’t ignore that person. So even [00:59:55] like in my fourth year of dental school, I went to, I messaged Rhona, can I [01:00:00] shadow you at Chelsea? And she she had me there for during my year we made a YouTube video together. [01:00:05] Um, I wanted to just get involved. I’m [01:00:10] the kind of person where it’s like, If I’m in this profession, I go at it like all in. [01:00:15] Can’t be half hearted. So as a student, I’d be the annoying [01:00:20] student as well when I was recording videos to be on my YouTube.

Yewande Oduwole: I remember a lot of my [01:00:25] colleagues would look at me like, what’s she doing? Like, I almost felt embarrassed. The fact that I was vlogging [01:00:30] and doing all these things because nobody else was doing that. I almost [01:00:35] got in trouble. I actually got in trouble. One of the deans, um, took me to a side and said, oh, we see you’re doing this [01:00:40] video content because Dental schools there can be quite strict about obviously not [01:00:45] confidentiality. But after we had a talk about what I was actually doing it for, they [01:00:50] got it. Yeah. They realised actually she’s not doing anything. I [01:00:55] was in actual fact, I was building up the reputation of the uni and um, [01:01:00] so yeah, I think even though it’s not something normal, sometimes you’ve just got [01:01:05] to go against the grain And I believe in serendipity. Things. Good things [01:01:10] happen to you without you trying. Just putting yourself out there and just waiting for the opportunities [01:01:15] to come. Because if you don’t, you never know what will happen.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:01:20] you, you know, I struggle with, um, teeth whitening, [01:01:25] getting dentists to talk to their patients about teeth whitening.

Yewande Oduwole: Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:01:30] You’d be amazed. You’d be amazed the number of dentists who never do never mention it to [01:01:35] their patients. I know you use enlighten all that. What do you do to get [01:01:40] patients to go ahead with teeth whitening? Do you do you have a routine? Is it something in your examination [01:01:45] that mentions shade? Yes.

Yewande Oduwole: So I’ll take I’ll bring out my shade guide. Yeah. [01:01:50] And during the exam I’d actually take a shade of their teeth.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. And [01:01:55] then mention it to them.

Yewande Oduwole: I’ll leave it on the side for them to look at. Because obviously [01:02:00] when you’re doing the check-up patients are listening. Yeah. So then at the end.

Payman Langroudi: So what do you say to your nurse [01:02:05] shade A3.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. So they’re like, oh what’s that? And then they see the shade [01:02:10] guide by their side and they’re like, oh, I heard you mention this colour, where am [01:02:15] I on that scale? And I said, okay, during your clinical examination you are this colour. And [01:02:20] then they’re asking me, oh, how can I get to this colour? Um, and I also asked them, are you happy [01:02:25] with the colour of your teeth at the moment? So if you don’t have the conversation as a dentist, you’re the only one [01:02:30] qualified to have this conversation with them. If someone from the street said, are you happy with the colour of your teeth, [01:02:35] it would be offensive. So when you’re when you’re in the in the check-up, the check-up is the most [01:02:40] important thing because they trust you and you’re not saying it in a way that [01:02:45] you need whitening. It’s just something you’ve observed. And from [01:02:50] there, that’s where a lot of patients actually, I would like to be whiter and and natural [01:02:55] white, I think is the most important thing, because I think people have this misconception about whitening [01:03:00] that you’re going to be like, have Simon Cowell, Rylan Clark. Teeth [01:03:05] whitening, especially a lot of older patients. They’re kind of whitening has this [01:03:10] stigma. So I think when you explain to them we’re just getting your teeth to how they were [01:03:15] when you were in your 20s.

Payman Langroudi: I found with older patients saying to them, it’s really [01:03:20] good for your gums. Mhm. Almost, almost gives them an excuse to go ahead. Like like [01:03:25] they, they want to go ahead. Right. But they can’t admit like they said older man. Yeah. Yeah. [01:03:30] Can’t admit to wanting a whiter smile. Can’t admit it because they.

Yewande Oduwole: Think it’s being [01:03:35] vain. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: They can’t like looking vain in your 70s as a British guy. Just [01:03:40] doesn’t feel right. When I used to say to them. Oh, by the way, it’s good for [01:03:45] your gut. Oh, good for my gums. Suddenly that’s like. That’s something that can hang it on. And then. And then [01:03:50] they go for it. I never it’s funny, I never used to teach people to talk about the health benefits of [01:03:55] teeth whitening because it’s so obvious. Everyone wants white teeth. But there are nuances. There are times where [01:04:00] you should. And then I realised loads of people sell aligners, Invisalign and Ortho [01:04:05] based on health benefits, which is being like 100% [01:04:10] honest here. Like you wouldn’t go ahead with aligners if there wasn’t [01:04:15] an aesthetic benefit.

Yewande Oduwole: You’d be surprised there are patients.

Payman Langroudi: You as a patient, go [01:04:20] through the risk and time and cost of aligners to make your teeth easier [01:04:25] to brush, or whatever the hell they sell it on.

Yewande Oduwole: Obviously, if you’re if you’re if your teeth are, you know, crowded, [01:04:30] of course you want the aesthetic component, the.

Payman Langroudi: Aesthetic component, 80% of [01:04:35] it. And then but then there’s.

Yewande Oduwole: Functionality as well. I’ve had patients.

Payman Langroudi: 20% of functionality. But when I listen to dentists [01:04:40] talking to patients, yeah, the 20% is taking centre stage.

Yewande Oduwole: Because [01:04:45] people need a reason to justify it. You know.

Payman Langroudi: As dentists we love saying you need and we really [01:04:50] hate saying, would you like, you know, it’s part of our culture. [01:04:55] You need, you need, you need, you need, you need. And you know, as we’re saying that all day, Um, but [01:05:00] it’s funny when people tell me, oh, I don’t want to embarrass my patient. I get it. Yeah, yeah. But, [01:05:05] you know, every time you tell a patient you’re not brushing your teeth properly, you’re embarrassing the hell out of them. Yeah, [01:05:10] you’re embarrassing, but you.

Yewande Oduwole: Wouldn’t say it like. Like you’d. You’re there to educate [01:05:15] them at the end of the day. And I think a lot of people, when you talk about aligners, the functionality [01:05:20] part actually sells big part. No.

Payman Langroudi: Like it sells you [01:05:25] people can’t.

Yewande Oduwole: You know, there’s times where people’s occlusion doesn’t allow them to to eat properly. [01:05:30] Yeah. You get it, you get it. I get.

Payman Langroudi: It. Let’s let’s get on to the darker part of the of the pod. [01:05:35]

Yewande Oduwole: Oh.

Payman Langroudi: We like to talk about clinical mistakes so that we can all learn from [01:05:40] each other’s. It’s not often talked about, but what comes to mind [01:05:45] if I say clinical error or if I say most difficult patient? Like sometimes [01:05:50] those two things are the same thing sometimes. Pick whichever you like. [01:05:55]

Yewande Oduwole: The clinical error Was on the most difficult patient that [01:06:00] I’ve had. There you go. So it was a double whammy. I. It was. I [01:06:05] was two months in to my associate role. Two months. It [01:06:10] happened in that time. And I had just come off this wave of the whole, [01:06:15] um, adhesive dentistry bonding zirconia. Um, professor Marcus [01:06:20] Blatt’s talking about, you know, we can bond zirconia now. And this patient, they needed a bridge. [01:06:25] 3 to 3. Um, and usually people do conventional bridges [01:06:30] where they prep the threes. But I decided, oh, I now know how to bond. I’m going to bond [01:06:35] it. I’m going to do wings.

Payman Langroudi: Resin retained.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. From 3 to 3 which is [01:06:40] distance. It’s a distance. And it’s a big job um especially bonding [01:06:45] zirconia. But I had it was zirconia wing. Zirconia wing. Oh.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:06:50] heroics.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. But obviously I’d spoken to Rajeev about [01:06:55] this and he, he said, yeah, you can do it. So I was like, feeling confident. Yeah, I can do it.

Payman Langroudi: Um, prep. [01:07:00]

Yewande Oduwole: Prep plus, prep plus.

Payman Langroudi: Go on then.

Yewande Oduwole: So I went through my protocol, [01:07:05] you know, all the steps, bonded it, and [01:07:10] it was great for a few months. It was it was fantastic. It stayed on. And then [01:07:15] I get a call and she said, she calls in like my [01:07:20] bridge is broken. And I literally my head, I was thinking, oh my gosh, I’ve done all the bonding, what’s gone wrong? [01:07:25] And when she came in, it had actually broken on the connector [01:07:30] part. So my wings were actually still stuck on, but the connector part had snapped. And [01:07:35] I remember obviously it’s her front teeth, so she was fuming. And this is where [01:07:40] patient management really had to come in. I was literally like managing her [01:07:45] like trying to calm her down. And I had to speak to the lab because [01:07:50] I was like, why is it broken? Because I was like, clearly my my wings are still on. It must be something to do with [01:07:55] the the.

Payman Langroudi: Flex, right? Yeah.

Yewande Oduwole: So then they made another one.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:08:00] went resin retained again?

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. Okay. Because we [01:08:05] didn’t want to prep the threes. So we made another one and it [01:08:10] broke again. That lasted you know a few months again it was like a year or so. And [01:08:15] then it broke again. And then that’s when we had to look into occlusion. And that’s when I was like, oh she [01:08:20] hasn’t got enough posterior support, which is why this part of the bridge keeps on breaking. [01:08:25] Yeah. So obviously I spoke to Rajiv about it and we really delved into it. [01:08:30] And I think if I went back and did that again, I would not have suggested that I would have told her to [01:08:35] get her posterior occlusion better before we went on to doing that bridge. I think I [01:08:40] just got really excited. You know, when you learn something new and you’re just like, I’m gonna try it out. Got [01:08:45] excited. But, you know, one.

Payman Langroudi: One big learning point from that era. Yeah. Is when something [01:08:50] breaks, your first point of call shouldn’t be the lab to say why did [01:08:55] it break? Your first point of.

Yewande Oduwole: Call should be.

Payman Langroudi: Occlusion.

Yewande Oduwole: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Stuff breaks due to [01:09:00] occlusion. Yeah, I’m sure once in a while, stuff breaks because the lab puts a crack in something or whatever. [01:09:05] But the vast majority of stuff breaks due to occlusion, and so occlusion is the first place to look.

Yewande Oduwole: 100%. [01:09:10] But when that happens to you, you’re looking for like, oh my gosh, yeah, it wasn’t me. But I’ve learned [01:09:15] so much now.

Payman Langroudi: Now to what ended up happening in that case. Then you did the posterior support. Yeah.

Yewande Oduwole: So we she [01:09:20] now, you know, had posterior support and you know she’s she’s good.

Payman Langroudi: Now and a conventional bridge or [01:09:25] you’d still resin bonding.

Yewande Oduwole: The bond is still bonded. The wings are still on there. It’s [01:09:30] literally the reason why it kept on breaking was because of her occlusion. So now she knows she needs that posterior support. [01:09:35] What are you doing?

Payman Langroudi: Like drilling off the zirconia wing to make a new one?

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, so [01:09:40] a nightmare. I know, so the bonding worked, thank God, but it was just the occlusion that failed. So [01:09:45] biggest lesson? That’s where everything starts from. Occlusion.

Payman Langroudi: The patient say, were they pissed off? [01:09:50] Of course.

Yewande Oduwole: She was.

Payman Langroudi: Did she have to spend more money to get the back?

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:09:55] was she cool with that?

Yewande Oduwole: Of course not.

Payman Langroudi: But how did you work it out?

Yewande Oduwole: I [01:10:00] had to. This is where Rajiv stepped in. We spoke to her together. [01:10:05] Yeah. Um. And that’s where I think, because I had built a good relationship with her [01:10:10] in the beginning. She trusted me. And I think she could see that I genuinely [01:10:15] wanted to do the best thing for her. And patients don’t sue dentists [01:10:20] they like. Yeah. So I think that’s key. She liked me enough not to to [01:10:25] go down that route. Um, and obviously you stepped in and we were able to get her to [01:10:30] come to an understanding where she realises [01:10:35] that, oh, okay, this is a problem that I need to sort out with my back [01:10:40] teeth. I think we take a lot of ownership for patients problems and we make it [01:10:45] our issue. But it’s important to explain that okay. So due to obviously [01:10:50] you’ve lost these back teeth, we need to get it back to function. She understood that. So yeah [01:10:55] with the help of communication and getting things right, it’s all good. But I remember oh my gosh, for that to [01:11:00] happen in your first few months, it was really it was really big.

Payman Langroudi: Was there a call [01:11:05] to the defence.

Yewande Oduwole: No that I’ve never had touch wood. I don’t even want [01:11:10] to say it now. No, nothing like that has ever happened. But I think it’s because of the [01:11:15] patients can really see that I am trying my absolute hardest for them. [01:11:20] And I think as a patient you can sense that.

Payman Langroudi: Is it a mixed practice. Yeah. [01:11:25] Yeah. So that’s the thing with with private you have time to make that connection. [01:11:30] Whereas in mixed sometimes you haven’t got time, you know, and you’re doing [01:11:35] your very best. And I mean in this situation you could have easily have recommended a fixed fixed bridge. Yeah.

Yewande Oduwole: But [01:11:40] I was trying to be conservative, be conservative.

Payman Langroudi: Like, you know, there’s almost like this question of should [01:11:45] you have communicated the fact that you were trying to be conservative. Like, for instance, back to that [01:11:50] question about looking confident. Yeah. In that situation, you can say, look confident, [01:11:55] say, I’m going to do this for you and it’s going to be okay. Or you can say, [01:12:00] I want to do this to you because for you, because I don’t want to drill your teeth, but I’m taking a risk [01:12:05] here. You know, sort of taking this risk. We’re taking this risk together.

Yewande Oduwole: 100%. [01:12:10]

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting. Like, if if it was framed that way, maybe she wouldn’t have been this pissed off. [01:12:15] Yeah.

Yewande Oduwole: And I’ve learned. Now.

Payman Langroudi: Now it’s your choice. Like, it’s almost like that, you know. Do [01:12:20] you want. Do you want us to to do this or do you want us to go the other route? You know, like, it’s an interesting [01:12:25] point.

Yewande Oduwole: It shaped the way I discuss risks now. And I will always make sure that [01:12:30] if I know there’s even a chance of this not lasting or going wrong, I will make it absolutely [01:12:35] clear. And after that, I had a patient where she wanted to save her [01:12:40] tooth with, um, an endo. I told her, you know, it may fail, and she had [01:12:45] some perio, but she still wanted to save this tooth, so I did it for her. Eventually it did fail, but she was happy because [01:12:50] she was like, oh, you told me that and I need to sort my gums out. But at the time she wanted [01:12:55] to save this too. So I think now that’s really helped me with my communication before it happens [01:13:00] rather than explaining. Because if you explain at the end it’s an excuse rather [01:13:05] than explaining in the beginning. So come to.

Payman Langroudi: The end of our time, crazily. [01:13:10]

Yewande Oduwole: That went really quickly. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I’m going to end it with the usual questions. Um, [01:13:15] fantasy dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive? [01:13:20]

Yewande Oduwole: Mhm. So the first person would be [01:13:25] you probably won’t like this answer, but it’s going to be Jesus Christ. Well, no, because I [01:13:30] know at the beginning you said about the faith, but I think because of how much faith has shaped [01:13:35] my life, I really want to sit down and just ask questions about Christ. Yes. [01:13:40] Love. Forgiveness. Um, just get getting insight into how [01:13:45] Jesus lived his life.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Yewande Oduwole: Um. Second would be Doctor [01:13:50] Uchenna Okoye.

Payman Langroudi: Really? Yeah.

Yewande Oduwole: Because one.

Payman Langroudi: Of my favourites.

Yewande Oduwole: One [01:13:55] of the last things we said we’d always talk back and forth on Instagram. Yeah. But [01:14:00] she said we’re going to meet up one day for dinner. And she would always be, you know, following [01:14:05] my journey, praising what I’ve been getting up to. And I’d be praising her. But we never got a chance to [01:14:10] have that dinner. So I’d love to just sit down with her and just speak about [01:14:15] her experiences as a black female dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:14:20] I used to have dinners with each other.

Yewande Oduwole: Really? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, the third.

Yewande Oduwole: Third [01:14:25] would either be. I couldn’t pick [01:14:30] but Michelle Obama or Viola Davis. Viola Davis. So [01:14:35] she is an actress. She is, um, a very powerful [01:14:40] woman that she’s gone through a lot of adversities in her life, but she’s she’s made it in the [01:14:45] acting scene, and she’s one of those people that I know if I was to [01:14:50] sit with her, I’ll leave feeling like ten times better about myself and just the confidence [01:14:55] that she exudes, and I love that. Um, I think the [01:15:00] difference. So the last thing I want to say, actually, the difference between smart [01:15:05] people and bold people, is that bold people, they see the glass as [01:15:10] like half full. And if I think the secret to getting everything you want in life is just [01:15:15] to be bold. Smart people will think, oh, what could go wrong? But bold [01:15:20] people will say, well, what could go right? And I think that’s how I’ve tried to live [01:15:25] my life. Just being bold, even when I don’t feel like it.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the black [01:15:30] Dental network event. That’s.

Yewande Oduwole: Oh, yeah. So we’re having a conference. [01:15:35] Um, next year. Um, black Dental network was founded in 2022. [01:15:40] I run the Instagram page with Doctor Arnold. Um, and [01:15:45] we basically we’ve created a group to fill this gap with [01:15:50] the representation of the lack of sort of black. Less than 2% of dentists in [01:15:55] the UK are black. So going back to what I was talking about, the representation. So we have this [01:16:00] conference that we hold every year between April and May. Um, Chris Hall came to the [01:16:05] last one. He was a speaker and Martin Wayne Dyer as well. So, um, [01:16:10] we’d love for you know, you don’t have to be black to come. Please come support. And it’s just [01:16:15] about bringing everyone together and representation.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s the page called? Black Dental.

Yewande Oduwole: Dental network? [01:16:20] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And were you one of the co-founders of it?

Yewande Oduwole: Oh, so no, doctor Jamie and [01:16:25] Toyin founded it, but we’re I’m part of the the lead, the core group where we delegate [01:16:30] roles. And it’s all non-for-profit. We just do it because we want more representation [01:16:35] in the dental field. So yeah, everyone can feel free to get involved.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. [01:16:40] It’s been lovely talking to you. It really has. I really, really enjoyed it. Thank you. And [01:16:45] I feel like we could have kept going for a long time, but I.

Yewande Oduwole: Know the time.

Payman Langroudi: Is.

Yewande Oduwole: Gone by so [01:16:50] quickly. Thank you so much for having me.

Payman Langroudi: For coming all the way here.

[VOICE]: This [01:16:55] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one [01:17:00] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:17:05] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:17:10] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just [01:17:15] a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say [01:17:20] and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did [01:17:25] get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this [01:17:30] with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. [01:17:35]

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: Interior composites are an area that a lot of us have trouble with, and the magic [00:00:05] that you get from a patient where you haven’t drilled their teeth and yet you’ve [00:00:10] improved their appearance, is something that, you know, the more whitening you do, the more aligners [00:00:15] you do, the more anterior composites you’ll have to do. If you’re not 100% on them, [00:00:20] get yourself on a course like Mini Smile Makeover with Depeche Palmer. Visit Mini [00:00:25] Smile makeover.com for dates and details. Now let’s get back to the podcast.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders [00:00:35] the podcast where you get to go one on [00:00:40] one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: One [00:00:50] of the loveliest things about my job is that I sometimes get to [00:00:55] meet my heroes. And my guest today is one of my dental business heroes who I’ve been watching [00:01:00] from afar for a long, long, long time. But I had the privilege to meet Anushka. Anushka? [00:01:05] Do people your friends call you Anushka or nurse?

Anushika Brogan: Nurse. Nurse. Nurse.

Payman Langroudi: Anushka. But. [00:01:10] Nurse. Um. Recently. Um. Nurse is one of the [00:01:15] only female owners of a big group of practices. 35 practices now mirror [00:01:20] 242. Already 42. Oh my goodness. The mirror Dental Studios, [00:01:25] which people will find all around the south of the UK. Have you moved [00:01:30] it around further than the south?

Anushika Brogan: So we’ve got one in Stafford, went up, came [00:01:35] back down again and then we’ve got one in Suffolk and two in Norfolk. [00:01:40]

Payman Langroudi: Now the rest around the south east.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, the rest. The rest are around the south east.

Payman Langroudi: Mother of three, which is [00:01:45] just extraordinary when I think about that, that you’ve achieved that and three [00:01:50] kids at the same time. Uh, massive Dirty Dancing fan I’ve heard. [00:01:55] How do I know so much about you? Well, because you were on a different pod. One of my favourites, the one in the chair [00:02:00] and two waiting with Haitham and Stuart. Yes. Um, [00:02:05] and I would. I would encourage everyone to listen to that pod. Um, today I kind of want to get behind [00:02:10] the sort of persona. Although I notice one thing about you, Anushka. You’re [00:02:15] kind of a bit under the radar. Bearing in mind what you’ve achieved, [00:02:20] you don’t put yourself out there as that person. Is that on purpose or by mistake? [00:02:25]

Anushika Brogan: Too busy working, is it? Yeah. Up until now, like until recently, [00:02:30] I’ve always been too busy working. So, you know, between working and the children, you [00:02:35] know, that’s been my life. Really. Like, you know, I’ve got I’ve got a lot of friends. So in [00:02:40] my free time, I really like to spend time with my friends and my family. Yeah. But, yeah, [00:02:45] I haven’t really had time to. I know a lot of people go and socialise a lot and, you know, within [00:02:50] network, within the circles. But for me, my family always came first. Well, I mean, you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Very well known [00:02:55] in DSO So circles, right? Because of that association of Dental groups that you’ve headed up? Yes. [00:03:00] Did you start that as well?

Anushika Brogan: No no no no no no no. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You were a director of it for a while.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, [00:03:05] I’ve been director for two years now. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so in those circles you’re very, very well known. [00:03:10] But in the general Dental, you just haven’t had time. You know, I guess you’re not a big social media person, [00:03:15] is that? Maybe that’s the.

Anushika Brogan: No, not not particularly. No, I don’t kind of, you know, put myself out on social [00:03:20] media so much so, so.

Payman Langroudi: This port it kind of goes, starts off generally with a backstory and all that. [00:03:25] But I tend to have sometimes a burning question that I want to just ask and, you know, go for it. My ADHD [00:03:30] side won’t let me relax until I’ve asked that question, right? What do you think is the difference [00:03:35] between a dentist who opens 1 or 2 practices and the dentist who [00:03:40] opens 30 or 40, and the one who then goes fully [00:03:45] corporate 300 or 400. Like, what is it about you? I mean, you, [00:03:50] when I listened to the previous pod, you made it sound very, very simple. Like, oh, the first [00:03:55] one started paying for itself. So I got another one. Got another one. But if that’s the case, why isn’t everyone [00:04:00] opening 35?

Anushika Brogan: I always knew that to run a corporate. Did you? Yeah. From the beginning. From the beginning, [00:04:05] I always knew I wanted to run a corporate. And my first job, um, when [00:04:10] I was doing my training, I actually asked the lady because [00:04:15] she she. It was a female practice owner, which was rare back then. And I [00:04:20] said to her, I want to own a group of practices. And there was a gentleman called, if I remember right, [00:04:25] Asif or Arif Lakhani. And he had a few practices back then and, um, [00:04:30] he kept saying, it’s not worth it. It’s not worth buying multiple practices. And the [00:04:35] business.

Payman Langroudi: Model he thought, doesn’t.

Anushika Brogan: Work. Yeah. And and I just thought, I don’t believe you. [00:04:40] I think it works. And then my second job, I went and worked for somebody who had multiple practices [00:04:45] and had made it work quite well and.

Payman Langroudi: Paid attention to what he was up.

Anushika Brogan: To. Yes. That’s right. [00:04:50] And, you know, like it was inspiring for me because actually that that was kind of what I wanted [00:04:55] to do. Yeah. And so.

Payman Langroudi: What were the lessons you, those early lessons you learned about. [00:05:00]

Anushika Brogan: That? I suppose staff management, I suppose staff management was quite, [00:05:05] um, key to how good and bad I [00:05:10] think. You know, I think Norine, who I worked for first, had really tight control of her [00:05:15] staff, and the second guy didn’t so much. He was a bit more chilled, but actually the the staff [00:05:20] really liked him. But versus like, you know, the staff that worked for Norine, they respected [00:05:25] her. But it was it was difficult because it was a much stricter environment. [00:05:30] And it kind of really, you know, it teaches you what kind of leader you want to be. Yeah. In terms [00:05:35] of actually, you can’t let them get away with murder, but equally, you kind of want to land in [00:05:40] the middle somewhere, don’t you?

Payman Langroudi: I think as a dentist, one of the things about being a dentist is about being a perfectionist. [00:05:45] Yeah. And then because you’re doing this perfect mod, you [00:05:50] reckon you’re going to have to be completely in control, micromanage every aspect [00:05:55] of your business as well. And that’s the biggest sort of one of the things that stops people [00:06:00] growing because, like you say, you’re not going to run six practices, let alone 42, [00:06:05] by managing a bit.

Anushika Brogan: Of a 80 over 20 kind of girl like, you know, I just think you have to my, [00:06:10] my dad, um, my parents owned, owned a couple of shops, and [00:06:15] my dad was really chill and my mum was really strict.

Payman Langroudi: And so you could see the difference.

Anushika Brogan: You can see the difference, [00:06:20] right? Like, you know, actually, my dad probably used to lose a lot of stock to his [00:06:25] staff. And, you know, my mum just wouldn’t she’d have everything absolutely perfect and really organised and things [00:06:30] and you kind of see the two different styles of leadership. And actually people don’t really [00:06:35] enjoy working when it’s too strict. I feel for sure. I think that you have to let them [00:06:40] just autonomy. Yeah. Have a little bit of autonomy and, and have like, you know, their own authenticity. [00:06:45] So I think that’s important.

Payman Langroudi: Where do you fall on working from home. Do you [00:06:50] like that or not at all?

Anushika Brogan: Uh. Mostly not. Mostly. I like to be in the [00:06:55] office once in a while.

Payman Langroudi: For your team? I mean, like, if you had a team member of [00:07:00] staff who’s who’s back office, like, doesn’t meet patients. Can they be working from home or. You don’t [00:07:05] like.

Anushika Brogan: That? I’m not. I’m not a big fan of working from home. So there’s an.

Payman Langroudi: Aspect of you that does like [00:07:10] to check on like to that extent. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, yeah. But I think also when people are [00:07:15] working around you, you work harder.

Payman Langroudi: Or not or not. Yeah or.

Anushika Brogan: Not. [00:07:20] It depends on on the atmosphere. And we’ve had various times even in our support office where [00:07:25] it’s been too chatty. You know, you’re just like come on guys. Like, you know, I’m paying you a salary to do a job [00:07:30] and you’re spending half the day talking. Nah, that’s not okay. You know, it happens from time [00:07:35] to time, but equally, you want them to get on. So. Yeah. Yeah. But for me, I don’t I don’t tend to [00:07:40] go to them and say, you know like stop talking. [00:07:45] I’ll change their job role because I think they’re not busy enough. And I would do it that way, you [00:07:50] know. So I would I would kind of manage it that way rather than go for them, because that’s not my personality [00:07:55] at all.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t like confrontation?

Anushika Brogan: Um, I don’t mind confrontation. [00:08:00] If it’s necessary. If it’s necessary, bring it. You know, I’ll have [00:08:05] a fight with anybody. You don’t think you can.

Payman Langroudi: Get the best out of people?

Anushika Brogan: I don’t think you get the best out of people when you’re confrontational. I [00:08:10] think having a sit down with them and just having a chat with them and just going, right, I’m going to change things around [00:08:15] a little bit or what’s not working. What is working is a better way.

Payman Langroudi: Would you say that’s your superpower, [00:08:20] like getting the most out of people? Yeah. Really? Yes.

Anushika Brogan: I’m really empathetic. [00:08:25] And people I think I’m quite relatable. Yeah. Um, [00:08:30] and try and be nice to people. And it really works. It really works [00:08:35] because there’s.

Payman Langroudi: Quite a lot of hats you have to wear as the owner of multiple practices. Right. And for [00:08:40] me, like, one thing I hate in my life is building works. You know, like I’ve had to [00:08:45] do it right, But I hate my life during that period of building works. Because I don’t know. Because I [00:08:50] don’t understand it myself. I feel like I’m getting ripped off.

Anushika Brogan: Also, your ADHD because you don’t like chaos, right? [00:08:55]

Payman Langroudi: True, true. Um, but what I’m saying is one of the hats. If you want to own 42 practices, [00:09:00] one of your hats is you’ve got to be a property developer. Yeah. I mean, there’s no doubt about that. Yeah. You got to be completely comfortable [00:09:05] as a property developer. You have to have a team of builders constantly doing places up. Yep. Turning a [00:09:10] three surgery practice into a seven surgery practice. That’s the way to to to make that business work, right? Definitely. [00:09:15] But that’s only one of your hats. Yes. Because I’ve got a friend who’s a property developer, and he. You know, he’s not [00:09:20] the most personable guy around here. Now, now, your other hat is [00:09:25] someone who inspires employees, which is everyone other [00:09:30] than the self-employed ones. Yes. And then you’ve got this hat. The clinical kind of [00:09:35] hat, which is, you know, a whole nother skill.

Anushika Brogan: And actually managing dentists is [00:09:40] completely different to managing team members.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely.

Anushika Brogan: Absolutely totally different. [00:09:45]

Payman Langroudi: And let’s not forget government tendering, [00:09:50] association of Dental groups. Like all that whole side that you’ve gone into. [00:09:55] Let’s not forget finance. Right. Persuading people to lend you money. [00:10:00] And then in your world, like, you know, in my world, I’m looking at, um, I don’t know, Invisalign [00:10:05] as my dream, sort of. Or those cats from Australia. Um. Hi. [00:10:10] Smile. Yes. Like the two, 221 year old kids are destroying me [00:10:15] in the business world. Yeah. So in your world, you must be looking at private equity. [00:10:20] Can 42 be 420?

Anushika Brogan: So I’ve done that whole journey already. [00:10:25] Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But I’m saying there’s a lot of hats. Yeah, it’s a lot of hats.

Anushika Brogan: You have to learn really quickly. Yeah. [00:10:30] So. So a few years ago, I almost sold to private equity, and then I backed out at the very last minute. [00:10:35] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What was the thing that, like, the.

Anushika Brogan: I just started [00:10:40] having sleepless nights about not having any control over my life. And, you know, I [00:10:45] just I don’t like being told what to do. I don’t I haven’t since I was a child. I don’t, [00:10:50] I don’t like I don’t like being told what to do. You know, I’ve only ever interviewed for jobs twice. [00:10:55] So, you know, I just don’t I don’t think I would do very well with someone [00:11:00] scrutinising me constantly. I think that would demotivate me completely. And, [00:11:05] um, I just decided that it wasn’t for me.

Payman Langroudi: Have [00:11:10] you ruled it out forever or. Yes. Not necessarily.

Anushika Brogan: No, I’ve ruled it out forever.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. It’s completely [00:11:15] off my radar. It’s not happening.

Payman Langroudi: Surely there’s a deal there that says, hey, don’t just leave me completely alone. [00:11:20] Take £1 million less and say, leave me completely alone. I can work from wherever I like and do whatever [00:11:25] I want. No, no, no.

Anushika Brogan: There is, there is, there is no, no money for money. There’s no [00:11:30] amount of money that would persuade me to do a deal, no amount of money.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:11:35] that’s so interesting. Is it because you love your life so much right now? Yeah. Is that the reason? Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: I’m [00:11:40] really happy, and I actually think that I’m building a legacy for my children, [00:11:45] and whether they decide to work in the business or not is absolutely fine. They’ve made noises about [00:11:50] it at some point, but if they do, great. If they don’t, also great. I [00:11:55] will put structure in place so that the business continue to run. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have [00:12:00] they have they said they want to.

Anushika Brogan: At various points. Yes. My two boys. Because my [00:12:05] little one’s little. How old is she. She’s eight.

Payman Langroudi: Oh and how old are your boys?

Anushika Brogan: My eldest is 22 [00:12:10] and my middle one is turning 19 next month.

Payman Langroudi: Your eldest [00:12:15] studied law and is an amazing singer. Yes. I noticed on TikTok. [00:12:20]

Anushika Brogan: Yes. He is.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing voice.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, he’s really good.

Payman Langroudi: Your middle one is in dental school? [00:12:25]

Anushika Brogan: Yes, he’s just started Madrid.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, Madrid. Really? Yeah. I’ve got a friend in Madrid. The one outside Madrid. [00:12:30]

Anushika Brogan: Um, okay. Yeah. Just outside.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah yeah. Yeah, yeah. And your youngest? You don’t know nothing. [00:12:35]

Anushika Brogan: She wants to be a dog walker. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So it could be. It could be. Your sons [00:12:40] end up bringing in private equity or whatever. You know, that could happen.

Anushika Brogan: I don’t I don’t think they will. I [00:12:45] don’t think they will. But they I mean, when it when it’s theirs, it’s up to them what they do with it. [00:12:50] I, you know, when it’s my life, I want to be in control of my life.

Payman Langroudi: So listen, [00:12:55] I don’t want it to be negative. Right? But I do want to hear the other side of of of the story [00:13:00] as well. Yeah. Because it’s all well and good right now.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:13:05] I mean, we there’s no business owner that does a new thing [00:13:10] and doesn’t sacrifice during that process. Like for me, the way [00:13:15] I would think of it is we’re bringing out Desensitiser pen next week, right? Just that little pen has [00:13:20] caused me all sorts of sacrifices. I missed the birthday party, whatever. Yeah, yeah, it’s a pen. Yeah. [00:13:25] With you, every single practice purchase is a product in the end, right? Yeah. What [00:13:30] have been the sacrifices that you’ve made to get to where you’ve gotten to?

Anushika Brogan: I’m still making [00:13:35] sacrifices constantly. So the deal we’ve just done seven practices. [00:13:40] We bought them in July.

Payman Langroudi: All in one go.

Anushika Brogan: July to August. Yeah. And it was it was [00:13:45] a company that went bankrupt. Yeah. And we just it just came on my radar. [00:13:50] I jumped on it. I put an offer in within a week. I was buying the practices. [00:13:55] Wow. And honestly, I think it was the 20 something [00:14:00] of July and I was going on holiday, our like, family holiday where [00:14:05] my sons just graduated. My other one’s just about to go to Madrid, and I’ve been [00:14:10] working constantly for like, you know, quite a few months and it’s our time to spend together [00:14:15] and it’s a week away from completion. So, um, on I think [00:14:20] we were going on my, my ten year anniversary, and during that lunch [00:14:25] I was signing some of the papers. Okay. And then [00:14:30] and then when we went on holiday, everyone was sleeping. They all thought I was asleep, and [00:14:35] I was awake in the middle of the night, doing all my work so that I could spend family time with them. It’s [00:14:40] part of the sacrifice, right? This is what I want to do. But I’m not going to interfere with my time. [00:14:45] My family time is important that that is boxed off as in like. And [00:14:50] they feel prioritised because otherwise they’ll always feel like they’re second best. And I don’t want that to be the case. Yeah. [00:14:55]

Payman Langroudi: But you know, children of business owners know that sometimes business comes first. Sometimes it does, sometimes [00:15:00] it. Be honest about that. Right.

Anushika Brogan: Sometimes it does come first. And and my, my kids are realists. Right. [00:15:05] They’ve seen, um, both myself and my ex-husband both have businesses. Both have [00:15:10] to work hard. Both have to do all of that. I am so fortunate. Now I’ve got the most amazing husband [00:15:15] who is really, really supportive of.

Payman Langroudi: Is he involved as well?

[TRANSITION]: No, not at [00:15:20] all.

Anushika Brogan: And it’s better that way because he totally separates things and keeps [00:15:25] everything calm so that when it’s chaotic, for me, it doesn’t impact on the children [00:15:30] at all. They’ve always got that stability, which is really important.

Payman Langroudi: And how far did the mirror [00:15:35] go, or how many practices did you have when you first broke up with your first husband? [00:15:40]

Anushika Brogan: So, um, I had nine. And [00:15:45] then during our divorce, I won a tender for another 3 or 4. [00:15:50] So it just kind of maybe it was eight, I think it was eight. And then I got 12, and [00:15:55] then I ended up with six with nine in the end. Oh.

[TRANSITION]: With nine?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, I ended up with nine at the end of my divorce. [00:16:00]

[TRANSITION]: Wow.

Anushika Brogan: So but it.

Payman Langroudi: Was I listened to your story. You said you bought your first one [00:16:05] when your son, who’s just qualified as a lawyer, was nine months [00:16:10] old.

[TRANSITION]: That’s right. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then I was rewinding and saying, well, that means that you were looking at it when you [00:16:15] were nine months pregnant.

Anushika Brogan: I know I was looking at it when I just got pregnant and didn’t know I was. [00:16:20]

Payman Langroudi: There you go.

[TRANSITION]: There you go.

Anushika Brogan: Because it takes six months or so, doesn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: I was thinking that level of [00:16:25] that level of, you know, call it what you like, right? Risk taking or whatever it is. Like most people, [00:16:30] pregnancy that becomes a thing in itself. But you were there buying that first practice. [00:16:35]

Anushika Brogan: I had to. I had motivation behind me. I was living with my ex in-laws and I didn’t like [00:16:40] it, and I wanted to get out, and I, um, I couldn’t decide whether [00:16:45] to buy a practice or a house. And so, um, I actually went to see a [00:16:50] clairvoyant of all things, and the clairvoyant said, buy a practice, so I did. [00:16:55] That’s what you do when you’re 23. 24? [00:17:00] Yeah. Just no guidance. Just like I don’t know what to do.

Payman Langroudi: And then. Okay. And then [00:17:05] you very quickly paid that practice off.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So what, you paid off [00:17:10] more than you had to.

[TRANSITION]: Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you quickly learnt how to run a dental practice. [00:17:15]

Anushika Brogan: Yes. It was a steep learning curve. But you know, back then there wasn’t all the regulation [00:17:20] and all the, you know, nowadays, I mean, you had an NHS inspection, a guy came round, you gave him a cup [00:17:25] of coffee and he was like, oh, put a sign here and do this and you’ll be fine. That was it. Yeah. It was really easy. [00:17:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but what are you referring to? Things like CQC and all that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But at the end of the day, I [00:17:35] don’t think the difference between successful practice and, you know, not so successful practice is [00:17:40] how they execute on CQC. I mean the learning on how to make this place work and [00:17:45] work without you in it in such a short period of time.

[TRANSITION]: I think that’s. [00:17:50]

Payman Langroudi: A real skill.

[TRANSITION]: I think the.

Anushika Brogan: Difficulty is now that because of those things and the [00:17:55] like, you know, it is harder. It’s like, you know, with your first practice back then, all I had to focus [00:18:00] on was being a dentist myself, making sure my staff were paid, making sure everything was clean and disinfected. [00:18:05]

[TRANSITION]: That was it.

Anushika Brogan: Now you have to jump through so many [00:18:10] hoops, so it is much harder to be a practice owner, a single practice owner now. And [00:18:15] I think that, you know, I remember back then thinking that our property used to be so [00:18:20] cheap. It used to be so like, you know, you used to be able to do this, but actually you’re right that [00:18:25] it is just mind over matter, that if you are that determined that you want to do something, [00:18:30] you can do it. And I think it’s about having that motivation and determination and just [00:18:35] saying, that’s my goal. I’m going to get there and then you can achieve it.

Payman Langroudi: For how long? [00:18:40] Or maybe you’re going to tell me you’re still doing it right. For how long were you sinking every single dollar [00:18:45] back into the business? It must have been years and years and years and years to grow at this rate.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, I mean, I still still [00:18:50] are.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: I don’t take I just take a dividend. That’s it. Mostly [00:18:55] everything goes back into the business.

[TRANSITION]: It’s interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Man. It’s interesting [00:19:00] because it takes a certain person to do that. Here you’re saying you don’t want to sell it [00:19:05] either? Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: What am I doing with my life?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Listen, by the way, there’s [00:19:10] nothing wrong with building something, right? For the sake of building something, it’s a beautiful thing. Like I’m [00:19:15] building this podcast for the sake of building this. You know, I’m not gaining massively from doing this podcast. I’m enjoying [00:19:20] doing this podcast. I’m doing this podcast. But what is the driver? Like, what is that driver like?

[TRANSITION]: That [00:19:25] competitive spirit.

Anushika Brogan: I’ve got a really clear life goal. So when I was [00:19:30] younger, I really wanted to travel and my dad always said to me, no, because if you come out of education, [00:19:35] it’s really difficult to get back in. It’s really difficult to focus again. Blah, blah, blah. So he was [00:19:40] always like, get your education out of the way. Then when I got my education out of the way, then you start working, then you see money, then [00:19:45] like it just doesn’t happen, does it? So and I’ve hardly travelled, to be honest, I’ve hardly [00:19:50] travelled.

Payman Langroudi: Back to that sacrifice. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Right. So. And for me, I, I’ve [00:19:55] always wanted to get to 50 practices. Okay.

[TRANSITION]: Just just a number. You just made up just because.

Anushika Brogan: Just [00:20:00] because that’s what I’ve always wanted to do. Yeah. And and actually my goals have changed over the [00:20:05] years because I can remember when I used to write a diary and in my diary, [00:20:10] I wrote, all I want to be able to do is send my children to private school, have a nice big house, [00:20:15] have nice cars. That was it. That was the goal. Then the goal changed to oh, I want ten [00:20:20] practices. Then the goal changed to I want 25 practices. Now it’s 50, but I feel like [00:20:25] 50 is achievable. Very.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: And I feel like I feel like [00:20:30] I have done my life’s work in that. And then I want to pay off all my debt, because [00:20:35] obviously you have to leverage yourself. And then I want to take a big fat dividend out, and [00:20:40] then I want to go travelling so I know what I want to do.

Payman Langroudi: And what’s your time frame [00:20:45] you’ve put on that? Like what’s your.

[TRANSITION]: Ideal?

Anushika Brogan: Um, so my daughters. Yeah. Um, eight. Yeah. So I kind [00:20:50] of think another 10 to 12 years so that she’s settled at university, my eldest [00:20:55] children will be older so that they’re in the country or they’re around so that they can take care of her if I’m not here. [00:21:00]

Payman Langroudi: I like that level of, you know, like ten year planning ahead.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. I’ve always been a ten [00:21:05] year. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. So and again, listening to your other conversations, like, massively organised [00:21:10] like sort of zoning family time with work [00:21:15] time and all of that. You’ve always been that cat to I.

Anushika Brogan: I hate [00:21:20] cat like when it’s not structured. I have a very structured life. So I know on a Monday [00:21:25] I have certain meetings in my diary every Monday. I exercise in a certain [00:21:30] way. On a Monday I eat like certain I’m.

[TRANSITION]: Quite 4 a.m.. Yeah, you answered.

Payman Langroudi: My text [00:21:35] at 4:30 a.m.. Yeah, I sent at like 2:30 a.m. before I’d gone to bed.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:21:40] So what time do you go to bed?

Anushika Brogan: I go to bed normally around ten, like 930, ten.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:21:45] wake up at 4 a.m..

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: 1112, one two, three four. Five hours.

[TRANSITION]: Sleep.

Anushika Brogan: Six. [00:21:50] I aim for six. I aim for six. My husband kills me because he’s read that Matthew Walker book.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Each [00:21:55] hour. So like.

[TRANSITION]: He said, you’re.

Anushika Brogan: Gonna get a dementia. [00:22:00] Yeah. I don’t want you to get dementia. Go to sleep. I’m like, okay.

[TRANSITION]: So you get.

Payman Langroudi: Up at [00:22:05] 4 a.m. and.

[TRANSITION]: Run. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: So. So on a Monday.

[TRANSITION]: Darkness.

Anushika Brogan: In the no. So Monday, Wednesday and [00:22:10] Friday, my husband and I run.

[TRANSITION]: Together at 4 a.m.. Yeah. Poor guy. No, no.

Anushika Brogan: He’s [00:22:15] a he’s a personal trainer. So he’s he’s down for it. So he’s happy. He hasn’t always run with me [00:22:20] but I like running and he likes weights. So we’ve kind of compromised in the middle a little bit. Yeah. [00:22:25] So, um. Yeah. So we run together and that’s how we have our catch up. Because normally by the time I get home [00:22:30] from work, I am zonked. By the time I’ve spoken to the kids and everything, there’s nothing left.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s start there. What [00:22:35] time do you walk in?

Anushika Brogan: Um, I it depends on the day. Generally around six. [00:22:40]

Payman Langroudi: And you’re in bed by nine.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: So I walk in, dinner’s on the table, [00:22:45] so I always get home, have dinner, and then he’s cooked.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. He cooks. Yeah. [00:22:50] He cooks.

Anushika Brogan: So I’m so lucky.

[TRANSITION]: I don’t like.

Anushika Brogan: Cooking, so.

[TRANSITION]: It’s great [00:22:55] for me now. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: I mean, I can cook because, you know, um, brought up cooking, [00:23:00] but I’m not a big fan.

Payman Langroudi: So. So. Okay. Then dinner, then you’ve got basically one hour of, like, [00:23:05] me time, which isn’t even me time. Right?

[TRANSITION]: It’s with everyone much me time.

Payman Langroudi: So your me time [00:23:10] is while you’re running.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like everyone needs me time somewhere.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. I mean, I tend [00:23:15] to, I tend to have. So I’ve, like, started listening to audiobooks now, like, you know, all of that [00:23:20] kind of thing is just like where I have a bit of me time.

[TRANSITION]: All right, so then 5:00.

Anushika Brogan: So then so then [00:23:25] we basically. So we wake up around four, we start running about 440. Yeah. And [00:23:30] and then he runs a boot camp. So we carry on running till about 540 roughly. [00:23:35] And then I do boot camp 6 to 645.

[TRANSITION]: As well as well. Okay.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. [00:23:40] And then, um, we’re back 645 ish back at home. See the [00:23:45] kids just for 20 minutes or so and then jump in the shower, and I’m at my desk by 8:00.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:23:50] your desk is at head office.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Head office.

Anushika Brogan: Which is 15.

[TRANSITION]: Minutes, 15.

Anushika Brogan: Minutes away from home. [00:23:55]

Payman Langroudi: Wow. And then what’s your typical day? Lots of meetings.

Anushika Brogan: Monday. Mondays [00:24:00] are generally meetings day, so I’m in and out.

[TRANSITION]: Of meetings all.

Anushika Brogan: Day long. All day [00:24:05] long, um, interviews, meetings, whatever needs doing and just catching up with.

Payman Langroudi: But give [00:24:10] me a flavour of that. Is it like the area managers, the dentists?

[TRANSITION]: No.

Anushika Brogan: So I don’t I don’t catch up with the area [00:24:15] manager. Area managers are out in practice on a Monday. Okay. So I tend to have like head office is meeting. So I meet with [00:24:20] my central ops team and my marketing team. I meet with senior [00:24:25] leadership team and then. Yeah, so any suppliers we have in the afternoon. [00:24:30] So um, that type of thing. And then just general work that’s kind of pending. Mondays [00:24:35] is always busy day. So something or other is always happening operationally.

Payman Langroudi: Something’s going wrong. Right.

Anushika Brogan: Something’s going [00:24:40] wrong somewhere.

[TRANSITION]: So how many dentists is it?

Anushika Brogan: Uh, we have now got 202. [00:24:45]

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, 202 dentists at the moment.

Payman Langroudi: 202 [00:24:50] dentists. That’s. So there’s constantly at GDC case going [00:24:55] on. There’s constantly divorce going on. Like, you know what I mean? There’s 200.

[TRANSITION]: People. Yeah. Yeah. [00:25:00]

Payman Langroudi: There’s a birthday every day.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah. There’s always stuff.

Anushika Brogan: There’s always stuff.

[TRANSITION]: So [00:25:05] and of.

Payman Langroudi: Of those 42 practices I understand some of them are gigantic. [00:25:10] Like one of them that we, we went to HS. You’ve got a few like ten chair ones. [00:25:15] Yeah. And then some of them are tiny.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Anushika Brogan: I mean, smallest is two surgeries [00:25:20] and but yeah, a lot of them are eight, ten.

Payman Langroudi: And the majority [00:25:25] are mixed.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s the model you like?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. That’s the model I like most.

Payman Langroudi: And you’ve got [00:25:30] a couple of private.

Anushika Brogan: I’ve got five private.

Payman Langroudi: Five private.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you [00:25:35] still work? How long as a dentist?

Anushika Brogan: I mean, until three, four months ago, [00:25:40] I was working a full day. 8 to 6 on a Tuesday day.

[TRANSITION]: Week?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. Yeah. A week [00:25:45] now I do 8 to 2, but I don’t tend to leave there till about three. And then by [00:25:50] the time you’ve done all your notes and referrals and everything, I mean, it’s a full day.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:25:55] used to do a day a week for about six years, and then I just had a bad day and [00:26:00] I thought.

[TRANSITION]: I don’t need to do this anymore.

Payman Langroudi: Just don’t forget.

[TRANSITION]: It. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But you [00:26:05] being a practising dentist, I suspect in one way. I remember when [00:26:10] I used to do my day a week. There was an element of. There was a break, you know, that no one was going to, you [00:26:15] know, interrupt me during that. There was a kind of a break from this here, [00:26:20] but I found it stressful. I found it stressful. Like I started hating that day.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, [00:26:25] no, I love that day. Not that I.

Payman Langroudi: Used to hate being a dentist. I used to love being a dentist. Yeah. But that [00:26:30] day was a stressor in my head because I’m like, oh, regulations [00:26:35] are changing. Am I keeping up with them and all of that? You know, in your world, I guess [00:26:40] that’s you’re all about the regulations, right? So that you don’t have to worry about.

[TRANSITION]: I mean.

Anushika Brogan: You still have to worry about [00:26:45] it, but I’ve always had the attitude that, you know, what? If patients like you and, [00:26:50] you know, you feel like you’re. I mean, a lot of my patients have been coming to me for 20 years.

[TRANSITION]: You [00:26:55] know.

Payman Langroudi: So keeping in touch with those guys, I guess.

[TRANSITION]: Gives you pleasure. Chit chat with them, like, oh.

Anushika Brogan: It just [00:27:00] reminds me why. Why I’m doing what I’m doing. You know, it just is a good reminder because [00:27:05] it’s hard if you lose sight of what we did it for in the first place. You [00:27:10] know, I’m really, like, passionate about healthcare. Like, I really want to make sure that people are looked after. [00:27:15] Um, you know, and I think it’s quite difficult. I mean, I [00:27:20] got, I got trolled yesterday on TikTok by somebody like, you know, and you [00:27:25] know, when, when you get stuff like that happen, you’re just like, I take it really personally. I’ve really tried [00:27:30] not to. I was just like, you know, but it’s really difficult. And I’ve got a lot of what do they say?

[TRANSITION]: What do they [00:27:35] say?

Anushika Brogan: They were saying, like it’s a NHS patient who can get access, [00:27:40] right, standard, standard thing across the country. And they were basically, um, [00:27:45] calling my reception team retards. And I was just like, that is so rude for [00:27:50] a start. Like, that’s horrible. In the first few sentences, I was just like, I hate you already. I [00:27:55] don’t like you. You’re not a nice person because you would just would not say that. But he’s obviously creating [00:28:00] drama. And then he was saying stuff about me personally. He’d obviously like looked me up and [00:28:05] etc. and then my, my nurse who, um, is [00:28:10] a dentist, actually, he’s a Sudanese dentist. And, you know, we got a lot of the Sydney’s dentists out of the war [00:28:15] zone at the time. So we’ve got a lot of Sydney’s in our in our organisation. And he [00:28:20] said to me he was such a sweet guy. And he said to me at the time that, um, there’s, [00:28:25] there’s a saying that if you’re if you’re flying in the clouds, you shouldn’t [00:28:30] worry about dogs barking underneath you. And I just thought to myself, do you know what? That’s [00:28:35] that’s really true. But it’s really hard for me because I feel like it’s my brand. And, you know, when people [00:28:40] say stuff about DiMera, I still feel quite personal about it. But a [00:28:45] lot of my team do as well, of course, which is really nice.

Payman Langroudi: I think that’s your baby, right? [00:28:50] Yeah. Something they used to, they used there was a point where they pulled me out of the stand on [00:28:55] the show, in the shows, because if someone said something about enlightened, I’d suddenly get sweaty [00:29:00] and.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because you don’t want.

Anushika Brogan: You know, it’s important, [00:29:05] right? That like, you know, you care. If you don’t care, then you don’t make it work as well. [00:29:10] I feel.

[TRANSITION]: So, Yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Had a patient contact me. I put my number everywhere. Yeah, everywhere. [00:29:15] And I had a patient call up and say, yeah, my teeth aren’t the same colour as [00:29:20] the before and afters on your on your page. And I said, yeah, [00:29:25] well they would be if the dentist took a picture of them. Yeah. And he said, well why don’t you say [00:29:30] on your page that that’s a dentist taking the picture of the thing. And I said, well, [00:29:35] I don’t know that, you know, that we do it clinically and all that. And then he got really [00:29:40] angry. He started shouting at me, and I felt that feeling again of protecting [00:29:45] my baby. Yeah. It’s a very personal thing, isn’t it? It’s a very personal thing.

[TRANSITION]: But I think dentists. [00:29:50]

Anushika Brogan: Don’t really talk about how that feels as much because, you know, it does happen [00:29:55] quite a lot. Like, you know, I can remember I can remember really clearly, you know, when first [00:30:00] year or two of practice, when I can remember, I obviously didn’t explain to someone [00:30:05] that they were going to have a gold crown in their mouth. Not not like a white one. And the guy just went [00:30:10] for me when I fitted his crown, went for me, and I was just like, oh, actually really [00:30:15] taught me. I’ve got to really make sure that they definitely want a gold or silver crown. But like [00:30:20] early on, you know, all of this kind of stuff happens, doesn’t it, in your career and nobody really talks about it, which [00:30:25] is hard. You kind of face it by yourself in your surgery and that’s it.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s early mistakes, right? [00:30:30]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I remember once I was on the brink of asking this lady, has [00:30:35] she thought about sorting out her skin or something. You know, like she had bad acne [00:30:40] or something. Yeah. And I just I was a child, I was, I was 22 or something, and I just thought, [00:30:45] no, I’m not going to ask that. But I was on the brink of it. Yeah, I might have, I might have, yeah. [00:30:50] And how that would have made her feel and you know what I mean. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: In hindsight.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Mistakes that you could make. [00:30:55] Right. So look there’s 200 dentists, 200 odd dentists. I suspect some [00:31:00] of them are specialists. Some of them are experienced, some of them are brand new. Some of them are overseas. [00:31:05] What have you learned about dentists managing dentists [00:31:10] because you have more experience in that than most?

Anushika Brogan: I think that, um, [00:31:15] I think that the nice ones are the ones that actually are [00:31:20] considerate and listen to.

[TRANSITION]: The patient.

Anushika Brogan: To patients. The ones that listen to you are [00:31:25] the ones that listen to their patients, and the ones that don’t listen to you are [00:31:30] the ones that don’t listen to their patients either. And it’s a problem. It’s a problem. [00:31:35]

[TRANSITION]: It’s a red flag. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. I find it like, you know, some people are really, like, [00:31:40] I know everything, you know, but. But if they’re treating me like that, they’re definitely [00:31:45] treating our patients like that. And for me, that’s just it’s a red flag. It’s [00:31:50] a red flag. Because, you know, they might be okay, but quite [00:31:55] often they’re not. So, um, that’s kind of one of my big learnings because [00:32:00] and it doesn’t matter whether they’re new or whether they’re old. Like, you know, when I say old, I mean that [00:32:05] they’ve been with us.

[TRANSITION]: For a long time. Yeah. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: It doesn’t matter because you get new people who are [00:32:10] exactly the same. They just don’t want to listen. They think they know everything.

Payman Langroudi: It’s such an interesting insight. What [00:32:15] else?

Anushika Brogan: Um, I think that.

[TRANSITION]: Do you think you. [00:32:20]

Payman Langroudi: Can tell from an interview what the dentist is going to be like? Have you got good at that? Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. Really [00:32:25] good.

Payman Langroudi: As in what? His communication.

Anushika Brogan: Communication. You can tell from the questions they ask, [00:32:30] I don’t I don’t interview people as such. I have a chat with them. Yeah. I like them to tell me about [00:32:35] themselves and like, you know, you can tell straight away from their body language whether [00:32:40] they’re shy, whether they’re, you know, whether they’re really confident, whether they have got ten offers [00:32:45] in their hands. And I’m just a number 11. You can just tell, you can tell from just chatting. [00:32:50]

[TRANSITION]: I mean.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve been you’ve been around long enough to be able to tell. Right. But yeah, but I had a guy here [00:32:55] a couple of weeks ago. Yeah. He was socially very awkward, very awkward [00:33:00] until we started talking about teeth. Once we started talking about teeth, he was. He was [00:33:05] the charming, like, amazing, you know. And I thought to myself, that’s such a big difference, [00:33:10] right? Yeah. They don’t realise he’s a very experienced dentist, right? He’s. He knows how to talk about teeth. Yes. [00:33:15] Yeah. But in that moment of, you know, hi to me. And would you like a coffee? He was. [00:33:20] He was a bit all over the place. But I guess you’ve got a sixth sense about that.

[TRANSITION]: But, you know. [00:33:25]

Anushika Brogan: I to that I think that actually you can be a really good, experienced dentist, but you have [00:33:30] to put your patients at ease. You have to be able to put your patients at ease, because whilst [00:33:35] they want to talk about their teeth and they need to talk about their teeth, actually, [00:33:40] if you talk a little bit around that and they’re comfortable, then they will relax. [00:33:45] And actually they’ll listen to what you’re saying about their teeth half the time. So that stress, they don’t even listen to what you’re saying and they miss [00:33:50] half the detail.

[TRANSITION]: Not to mention.

Payman Langroudi: The go for bigger treatment plan. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: That’s it.

Payman Langroudi: And the whole thing.

[TRANSITION]: Really? [00:33:55] That’s it.

Payman Langroudi: So who’s your longest standing dentist? [00:34:00] How long has he been with you?

Anushika Brogan: I had someone retire with me. I’ve [00:34:05] got another one about to retire with me as well.

[TRANSITION]: And is that the goal?

Payman Langroudi: Is that the goal?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That someone [00:34:10] stays, right?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, absolutely.

Anushika Brogan: I’ve got practice owners who I bought their practices ten, [00:34:15] ten years ago. They’re still here. I’ve got no ties to them. Never did have. They stay because [00:34:20] they want to stay because they’re happy.

[TRANSITION]: See what?

Payman Langroudi: We’re working with my dentist now, right? And I remember [00:34:25] you all. Remember this too? Yeah, ten years ago.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Terrible reputation [00:34:30] amongst dentists. Yeah. Now you go talk to their clinicians here, [00:34:35] and a bunch of them chose to go work there. Yeah, yeah. In the same way as, you know, like you might go [00:34:40] and choose to go to a McDonald’s because you know, what you’re going to get from them, chose to go work [00:34:45] there. Yeah. But also you can see throughout the management the whole thing is keeping dentists happy, [00:34:50] making sure dentists doesn’t leave.

Anushika Brogan: Tom, you did that.

[TRANSITION]: Sorry, Tom.

Anushika Brogan: You did that.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah. [00:34:55] Right.

Anushika Brogan: He’s he’s the one who’s done that.

[TRANSITION]: Changed it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: They’ve they’ve they’ve done [00:35:00] that Deliberately changed the values.

Payman Langroudi: For sure.

[TRANSITION]: For sure.

Anushika Brogan: Fantastic job.

Payman Langroudi: And so [00:35:05] would you say that that’s your key job? Like like is your key customer the dentist?

[TRANSITION]: Definitely. [00:35:10] Really? Yeah. Is that how you look at it?

Anushika Brogan: Patients are really important. I think that looking after patients [00:35:15] for support teams, they’ve got two jobs. Look after the patients. Look after the dentist. Because the dentist are [00:35:20] the ones that make the money. Yeah. Our job is to support them. If you if you don’t support them, you’re not doing your job [00:35:25] properly.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: That’s how you say.

[TRANSITION]: It to them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So then okay keeping dentists [00:35:30] happy. What are your top tips. What have you learned to do and not to do [00:35:35] to keep dentists.

Anushika Brogan: I mean if you’re a nurse turn up to work that’s important. [00:35:40] But like, you know, making sure that things are stocked properly, that’s really important. [00:35:45] You know, if they’ve got an issue, making sure that you sort it in a timely kind of fashion because, [00:35:50] you know, the worst thing is if something goes wrong, you know, people don’t. The dentists don’t ring me, [00:35:55] but if they ring me, it’s because something isn’t getting sorted quick enough. And I’ve said to all [00:36:00] of them, you’ve got my number. If for any reason you need to pick up the phone and ring me. Ring me. Don’t get frustrated [00:36:05] about stuff. Ring me. So. But they only ring me if something’s not getting sorted. And [00:36:10] then I know that. Come on, guys like you know this is your job.

Payman Langroudi: And then from the [00:36:15] recruitment perspective, do you talk to every single dentist?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Everyone. [00:36:20]

Payman Langroudi: Sure. You’re not talking to every single nurse, right. You’re not doing.

[TRANSITION]: No, no, not.

Anushika Brogan: Nurses, not [00:36:25] nurses, hygienists, etc.. So the area managers do um clinicians [00:36:30] so and therapists, hygienists etc.. Yeah. And um, they’ll [00:36:35] always they’ll always also meet the dentist before they start with us. Um, practice managers do [00:36:40] practice teams.

Payman Langroudi: So so then tell me about so the overall [00:36:45] like org chart. Yeah. How many people in head office like it’s you you’ve got your leadership [00:36:50] team. How many people do all those people the marketing leadership operations.

Anushika Brogan: We’ve got 34 [00:36:55] in support.

[TRANSITION]: Of head office. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then is [00:37:00] do you see that as your those that’s your business. Like you’re dealing with those people and [00:37:05] then only going talking to the practices.

[TRANSITION]: And so I.

Anushika Brogan: Directly manage the area managers.

[TRANSITION]: So so.

Anushika Brogan: On [00:37:10] a Monday I do all of the support teams like the people in the office.

[TRANSITION]: Meetings.

Anushika Brogan: On a Tuesday [00:37:15] when I’m driving to and from my clinical day, I have my catch ups with my area managers. So [00:37:20] I find out what’s going on, if they’ve got any queries, if they want to move people around, etc. but like, I’m [00:37:25] still very involved in who works where, all the rotors, all of that kind of stuff [00:37:30] because like that’s where you lose money if you are not driving those things carefully [00:37:35] and like surgeries aren’t full properly and things like that. So, um, I work quite [00:37:40] closely with the area managers and on that type of thing and business strategy, like, you know, if they’re stuck [00:37:45] on something, I’ll give them ideas on how to fix it. Um, and then [00:37:50] or who to move where, you know, because I know who all my clinicians are. So we [00:37:55] have chats around that. And then Wednesday I’m out in practice, so I try and get out to the practices [00:38:00] as much as possible.

Payman Langroudi: Whichever one needs you.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: So if there’s.

Payman Langroudi: Typically [00:38:05] what’s the problem like some.

[TRANSITION]: Argument or something.

Anushika Brogan: Normally dentists if dentists are like, [00:38:10] you know, making noise about leaving and we don’t want them to or anything like that. Yeah. Then, you [00:38:15] know, I’d go out and see them and just make sure that they’re okay. That type of thing. Um, or [00:38:20] if there’s. Yeah, if there’s arguments, sometimes there are arguments between teams and like, [00:38:25] you know, it’s a bit overwhelming most of the time the area managers can sort it, sometimes they can’t.

[TRANSITION]: So [00:38:30] and then you said the.

Payman Langroudi: Practice manager is in charge of the Ebit for each practice.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:38:35] incentivise that way. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:38:40] but then what kind of clothes do you keep on that. I mean you obviously look at that right.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:38:45] Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: So we have, um, monthly branch analysis meetings. So we look [00:38:50] at every branch in detail.

[TRANSITION]: And look.

Anushika Brogan: At their costs. So their overheads [00:38:55] and just like work out how that’s tracking against budget. So we [00:39:00] sent them a budget at the beginning of the year. And we just say to them that, look, you know, ultimately [00:39:05] we want you to achieve this EBITDA, whether you do it by earning more or whether you do it by cutting costs up to you, but [00:39:10] this is what you need to achieve, and then you get your bonus. So that’s what they’re working towards. [00:39:15] And then the area manager gets, you know.

[TRANSITION]: Um, incentivised, incentivised.

Anushika Brogan: By [00:39:20] their practices.

[TRANSITION]: And they’re taking.

Payman Langroudi: Care of like ten each or something.

Anushika Brogan: I’ve always found that 7 [00:39:25] or 8 is max for me.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: So they’re quite they’ve got quite a lot of attention on [00:39:30] those practices.

Payman Langroudi: What an organisation man. It just it just seems like [00:39:35] a total nightmare to me. You’ve got it, you’ve got it. You’ve got it down. What [00:39:40] about your perfect sort of model of of business that you want to buy? Is it one that has [00:39:45] got space for development?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I like, I like.

Anushika Brogan: I like very NHS practices [00:39:50] because I know I can build the private so I quite like, you know, they’re very NHS. [00:39:55] That’s great for me. Lots of potential to.

Payman Langroudi: Well there’s plenty of very NHS practices around the place but what [00:40:00] specifically.

Anushika Brogan: So I’d normally go for four chairs um usually. And [00:40:05] you know, the ones where they’re not hardly doing any Invisalign. They haven’t got implants in there, they haven’t got, [00:40:10] you know, they haven’t got because the practice has been there for a long time and has always done it one way, [00:40:15] stuff like that. They haven’t digitalised at all. They haven’t kind of like got digital, you know, [00:40:20] scanners and all of that kind of stuff. And just adding all of that in and getting new blood in there.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:40:25]

Payman Langroudi: But okay. But do you look at the location [00:40:30] and think that’s a good location for locations.

[TRANSITION]: Really important for cosmetic. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Locations. [00:40:35] No, not for cosmetic. For what? No. Because actually I found that [00:40:40] general bread and butter dentistry earns more than everything [00:40:45] else can do.

[TRANSITION]: I mean, look.

Anushika Brogan: If you think of a knee max crown, you’re going to earn the same. Doing an Emax crown as you [00:40:50] are time wise doing an implant, right? So yeah, actually, if you can get a lot of patients in, [00:40:55] it’s got to be busy. Location is really important because if it’s not busy, there’s no point.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah [00:41:00] but but okay so busy. Every NHS practice is busy.

[TRANSITION]: But.

Payman Langroudi: Busy with the kind of person who can afford [00:41:05] any max. Is that what you.

[TRANSITION]: Trying to say?

Anushika Brogan: Not necessarily. Because, like, one of my most successful practices is [00:41:10] in, like, a very, um, poor socioeconomic [00:41:15] area in Southampton.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a volume game.

[TRANSITION]: Volume.

Anushika Brogan: Game, totally, totally [00:41:20] a volume game.

Payman Langroudi: But then so my point is, what kind of area are you looking for then? How do you decide [00:41:25] that’s the right area or that isn’t.

Anushika Brogan: I think I think it’s I, I think it’s just with experience now, [00:41:30] I can tell whether or not I can make it work. So it’s not.

[TRANSITION]: That. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s let’s say [00:41:35] I’m in the practice in Southampton that’s just been bought by you. Yes. How quickly do you [00:41:40] go into the I mean, do you believe in sort of the evolution or the revolution way of doing [00:41:45] you go start rebranding.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you? [00:41:50] I mean, that’s opposite advice.

[TRANSITION]: Opposite.

Anushika Brogan: Opposite to everybody.

[TRANSITION]: Else. That’s opposite.

Payman Langroudi: Advice to. Except for dev. [00:41:55] Yeah. Um. Dental. Beauty. Yeah. Who goes and smashes the place down and starts all over [00:42:00] again?

[TRANSITION]: Everyone else. Everyone else.

Payman Langroudi: Slowly. Slowly. Make the team feel [00:42:05] comfortable. Make the patients feel comfortable.

Anushika Brogan: For the practices it’s for. It’s not for the practice. Like the [00:42:10] patients. Because the patients, like people, take over stuff all the time. People are used to it, right? [00:42:15] It’s for the team. That’s what they do it for. And I think it depends because if you want to keep the team, [00:42:20] then slowly, slowly is a good way around. If you don’t want to keep the team.

[TRANSITION]: Then the always [00:42:25] better bits. Yeah that’s interesting.

Anushika Brogan: And most of the time when I’m buying businesses, you’d.

[TRANSITION]: Rather start [00:42:30] again.

Anushika Brogan: I’d rather start again because.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Legacy and all that. So interesting. [00:42:35]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you’d rather have a four chair practice that looks like you can develop it? Yeah. And freehold? [00:42:40]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, if I can, if I can try. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then straight away you [00:42:45] smash it down, make it prettier.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: New people, new.

Anushika Brogan: We don’t always straight [00:42:50] away smash it down. We plan to do it in the next year because if we’ve just bought it, we’re kind of letting [00:42:55] it run for a bit.

Payman Langroudi: When it comes to the smashing down. And how long does that take?

Anushika Brogan: Uh, [00:43:00] it depends on the size of the practice. So and it depends on what we’re doing. So I’ve done it before where [00:43:05] all we do is pretty up the waiting room and run that for five years and then do a massive [00:43:10] refurb.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Because actually the most important bit is the waiting room.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:43:15]

Anushika Brogan: If the waiting room looks nice, people are in.

[TRANSITION]: No, but.

Payman Langroudi: You’re also having to bring in scanners. Um, [00:43:20] yeah. Do you do any advertising, marketing or anything?

[TRANSITION]: No.

Payman Langroudi: Or word of mouth?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. All word [00:43:25] of.

[TRANSITION]: Mouth. We. It’s interesting.

Anushika Brogan: We don’t spend hardly anything on marketing. Our marketing budget is really [00:43:30] low.

[TRANSITION]: That’s interesting.

Payman Langroudi: On purpose?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Why?

Anushika Brogan: Because [00:43:35] I feel like if you provide a really good service, people talk and then [00:43:40] you don’t have to. And I don’t tend to buy practices in central London, which is where it’s [00:43:45] competitive. And you have to really mark it. So. And, you know, there’s [00:43:50] other places where I just wouldn’t buy a practice. There’s, you know, there’s certain types [00:43:55] of people that just don’t like to spend money.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: And, you know, I just wouldn’t buy practices [00:44:00] around there.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:44:05]

Anushika Brogan: So, you know, like, you can’t make money out of those people. [00:44:10] You know, it’s like, you know, if you buy a practice where people are having their hair done and having their nails [00:44:15] done and having their, you know, you’re going to make money out of it, aren’t you?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So. [00:44:20] Okay. Now the practice is running and it’s kind of running. Not [00:44:25] the best. Yeah. How involved do you get then to, like.

[TRANSITION]: Increase?

Anushika Brogan: So.

[TRANSITION]: So [00:44:30] what do you do? What do you do?

Anushika Brogan: I would do is try and try and encourage the area managers to do this, do that, [00:44:35] do this, do that.

Payman Langroudi: Like whatever is right for.

[TRANSITION]: Whatever is right for that practice. What do you mean?

Payman Langroudi: Come on, give me a few tips. [00:44:40]

Anushika Brogan: So we try different things like different business models, right? Like, you know, maybe [00:44:45] I don’t know. Um, do you try and bring children in? So a [00:44:50] big way of bringing patients in is to target children. Free children?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anushika Brogan: You know, because [00:44:55] actually, not everyone’s got access. So, you know, we did that in the Isle of Wight in the beginning when I took over practices [00:45:00] on the Isle of Wight. And we needed patients. Just get the kids in because with the kids come the adults. And then you can sell to the [00:45:05] adults. Yeah. So, um, do that type of thing. Um, just [00:45:10] all kinds of initiatives. Even go to schools and put flyers in their, in their school bags, you know, go and do [00:45:15] a talk. Uh, key.

[TRANSITION]: Stage two marketing. That’s marketing.

Anushika Brogan: Marketing. It’s free.

[TRANSITION]: Right?

Payman Langroudi: Well, [00:45:20] yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Practically free compared to what you would spend on Google ads and all the rest of it. Don’t [00:45:25] tend to do many Google ad campaigns.

[TRANSITION]: I mean.

Payman Langroudi: While you’re doing the play, suppose I mean, do you do you [00:45:30] leaflet the local, do you go to local businesses and do anything, anything like that?

[TRANSITION]: Not really. [00:45:35]

Anushika Brogan: Not really. We don’t tend to. Signage is really important. Yeah, I think signage [00:45:40] is massive. I think that if you’ve got the right signage because most of the practices you go past, [00:45:45] you can’t even see that their dental practices.

Payman Langroudi: Many, many like that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: And so like, you know, if you [00:45:50] if you like, we put massive signs everywhere that hello, we’re here.

[TRANSITION]: You know.

Payman Langroudi: Kunal [00:45:55] Patel. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Love teeth. Love teeth. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: His son, as you can see from outer space. Because [00:46:00] it’s not the biggest.

[TRANSITION]: But it’s right.

Anushika Brogan: Right. Like, people know that he’s there, so it’s [00:46:05] important.

Payman Langroudi: All right, so signage.

[TRANSITION]: And all that signage.

Anushika Brogan: Is really important. Um, I think brand [00:46:10] is really important. And that’s why, like, you know, people saying that we don’t go and change anything. I’d go and change everything. [00:46:15] Because for me, if I’m spending money in a practice, I want to know that, [00:46:20] like, you know, it’s a bigger company. I’m going to be looked after. This is the service you get. These [00:46:25] are the branded documents. You get all of that type of thing. I think that’s quite important. But I think people [00:46:30] are really important, like, you know, when you first come in. So reception is quite important. Although I’m [00:46:35] currently looking at reception receptionist free.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Kind [00:46:40] of that whole.

[TRANSITION]: System.

Anushika Brogan: Of just like, you know, QR code and you scan in. It’s I mean, [00:46:45] cost saving on a business is massive. So we’re looking at that model.

[TRANSITION]: So look.

Payman Langroudi: There [00:46:50] must be a big amount of training for all the people in the practice to [00:46:55] pull off this thing. That is high word of mouth. I mean, word of mouth is doesn’t [00:47:00] happen by accident, right? Yeah. So now now you get new people. Let’s say let’s [00:47:05] say you got rid of all the previous people. New people come in. Yeah. Where’s that training? And what [00:47:10] is it?

[TRANSITION]: How prescribed.

Anushika Brogan: We send them to local practices.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Anushika Brogan: So one practice would go. [00:47:15] Yeah. They go and shadow other practices. And other people come into this practice to run [00:47:20] this practice. And we kind of swing things around like that so that they kind of see how our practices [00:47:25] run and how deacon runs and what our standards are and all of that type of thing. And then it kind [00:47:30] of just they.

[TRANSITION]: Buddy up outside.

Payman Langroudi: Of the operational. I mean, of course they need the operational skills. Yeah. But [00:47:35] but in order to blow patient socks off, it’s not easy to do in a mixed environment, [00:47:40] right?

[TRANSITION]: Like, I mean.

Anushika Brogan: I can’t with, you know, I can’t guarantee that every receptionist [00:47:45] of mine is blowing people’s.

[TRANSITION]: Socks off. No, I know.

Payman Langroudi: But you’re saying you don’t advertise. You get word of mouth. Yeah. So [00:47:50] getting word of mouth takes people to really care. And really, you know, how do [00:47:55] you how do you put that into a place?

Anushika Brogan: But I think I think, you know, like it kind of flows through the whole [00:48:00] business. If people feel like they’re cared about, then they will, um, [00:48:05] you know, really, really make an effort in the practice that they if they feel like they’re valued, they will [00:48:10] then value their job and they feel like then they’re an ambassador of DiMera. So [00:48:15] it matters how they speak to patients and all that kind of thing. So I’m very against [00:48:20] that. It’s like what I was saying earlier, I’m quite against the kind of, you know, stick approach. I’m [00:48:25] more about, like, you know, coaching people and actually. Yeah, so we do we like listen to calls [00:48:30] and things. So we mystery shop our receptionist, just make sure they’re saying the right thing. And just if [00:48:35] they’re not, we just replay them and say, just listen to this call. What do.

[TRANSITION]: You think? Listening to.

Payman Langroudi: Calls is one of the most [00:48:40] important things you can.

[TRANSITION]: Do regularly.

Payman Langroudi: As well.

[TRANSITION]: That’s the other thing.

Anushika Brogan: And they don’t [00:48:45] know it’s happening, right? So it’s.

[TRANSITION]: Good.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you know, what we found is that you [00:48:50] listen to a random set of calls. Totally random. Don’t try. And it takes [00:48:55] a long time to listen to calls in the first place to get learning points. Yeah. Forget that. Just take 20 [00:49:00] calls in a row and just listen to those 20 calls. And if one person was on seven of them by mistake or [00:49:05] whatever, it doesn’t matter. Yeah. And have like a no blame approach to that conversation. [00:49:10] And then everyone saying what could what could have been better about that conversation. [00:49:15] Yeah. It’s a brilliant approach and it’s surprising how few people do it. I [00:49:20] find that from the customer care and sales part of enlighten [00:49:25] is probably the most valuable work we do.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, it’s it’s really important because actually [00:49:30] if you don’t, sometimes you don’t even realise how you come across yourself. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. You know. [00:49:35]

Anushika Brogan: So I think it’s really, really valuable to listen to yourself.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, for sure.

Anushika Brogan: I’ll probably do that. As a [00:49:40] dentist. Shouldn’t I listen to myself talking and just see if I like, talk to patients properly? It’s [00:49:45] a bit of work to be done around that.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the finance side. So [00:49:50] you self-financed the first few, right? Or are you continuing to sell finance? What are you doing?

[TRANSITION]: Oh, [00:49:55] God. No.

Anushika Brogan: I mean, so I’ve got, um. So it was really interesting, actually, [00:50:00] because when I, when I bought my first practice, I took a bank loan. My dad guaranteed my [00:50:05] me.

[TRANSITION]: To my.

Anushika Brogan: Bank. Um, bank loan. And then second time I had [00:50:10] bought a house by then. So then I.

[TRANSITION]: Put the house up.

Anushika Brogan: Put the house up?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah. [00:50:15]

Anushika Brogan: And then by the time the third time, actually, that’s when I got into trouble, because [00:50:20] that’s when my mother in law said, oh, I’ll lend you the money and whatever anyway. And then by [00:50:25] then it just turned into a bit of a nightmare. But, um, I was really lucky because when I was [00:50:30] just at the end of my divorce, I met a lovely lady called Laura Graham who [00:50:35] worked in Metrobank, and she’d done corporate finance and all the rest of it. [00:50:40] And I just met her for a coffee one day because someone had recommended her. And, um, she [00:50:45] was like, I’m going to consolidate all your debt, and I’m going to put it all in one place and we’ll get you [00:50:50] more money so you can go out and buy practices. And she did everything for me, and I didn’t even know [00:50:55] what on earth she was doing, but I just trusted her that she would look after me because she knew what [00:51:00] my circumstance was and she knew that I needed help. And since like after that, [00:51:05] we just carried on growing because all my debt was consolidated. I actually didn’t have that much debt really, [00:51:10] compared to the value of the business. Um, and then as soon as I was [00:51:15] free again, I just bought quite a few more practices and just kind of chugged them like that. So. [00:51:20]

Payman Langroudi: So does she always come through? Like, when every single time. Or what happens? I mean, are [00:51:25] there times where she says, no, you can’t have that money?

Anushika Brogan: I’m not with her anymore.

[TRANSITION]: So she she left.

Anushika Brogan: So [00:51:30] she left Metrobank. And then I refinanced after that. So when she was when [00:51:35] I knew she was leaving, I only stayed there because she was there. Yeah. And then when she was leaving, I kind [00:51:40] of moved on. And I’m now with Santander and they’re equally good. They’re, you know, they’ve [00:51:45] been brilliant. So, um, but yeah, I mean, I had to again, that’s [00:51:50] a steep learning curve. No one actually tells you about how you have to really learn about how [00:51:55] EBITDA affects leverage and all of that kind of stuff. I mean, where do you learn that? Dental school, you don’t know. [00:52:00] So you have to kind of pick it up as you go along, don’t you? And just go, right, okay. I need to try and understand [00:52:05] this now.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, but look, the business.

Payman Langroudi: Model of a corporate, I’m going to call you [00:52:10] a corporate just because you are. But the business model of a corporate. Yeah. We all I [00:52:15] think many, many people understand that sort of the multiples being bigger for bigger [00:52:20] businesses.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t really understand why myself. But let’s move on. [00:52:25] The all the, there’s all these extra humans here. Area managers, all [00:52:30] these different people. Yeah. Yeah. So these are extra costs? Yeah. Yeah. Does all of that [00:52:35] have to be paid back from me? From suppliers on bulk? You know, on. Is that it? Is [00:52:40] that the whole. Is that the whole thing?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the whole business model.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: I mean, the only the only good [00:52:45] thing about obviously, the corporate model is you’ve got an area manager who is essentially managing [00:52:50] all of these practices, so you don’t have to do it. I know.

Payman Langroudi: But there’s all these extra costs. Like if [00:52:55] we take a single practice. Yeah. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You haven’t got other people to pay. [00:53:00]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: So why should the Ebit be more for a multiple practice when there’s extra costs? [00:53:05]

Anushika Brogan: But the pinch point is the pinch point is when you’re at kind of 4 to 6 sites, [00:53:10] that is the pinch point.

[TRANSITION]: Because 4 to 5.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Well yeah. Kind [00:53:15] of between.

Anushika Brogan: But the problem is because when you’re at less than that you can go to each [00:53:20] site yourself. Yeah. And when you get bigger than that.

[TRANSITION]: That suddenly.

Anushika Brogan: Then. Yeah. That’s it. You need other [00:53:25] people because you just can’t manage. And it’s just too much work for one person. [00:53:30] So if you’re a small corporate, you can manage up to about 6 or 7. Then beyond that it just becomes [00:53:35] unmanageable. So tell.

Payman Langroudi: Me. Tell me about more growing pains. I love that sort of growing pains story. So [00:53:40] at six okay. What happened at 26?

[TRANSITION]: Like what other [00:53:45] growing pains.

Anushika Brogan: I mean, the thing the kinds of things that have happened. Oh, I could tell you so many [00:53:50] stories.

[TRANSITION]: Do you want some stories? Of course. 100. Oh, my.

Anushika Brogan: God, like the dramas [00:53:55] that happen when you catch. I mean, how do you. How do you like, how do you deal with, like, [00:54:00] who equips you to deal with when and like, a nurse and dentist are having [00:54:05] sex in your in your surgery? Who equips you with that? Like nobody. Like, do you know? Like you. [00:54:10]

[TRANSITION]: But it’s the kind.

Anushika Brogan: Of thing that happens to you as a practice owner.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Like.

Anushika Brogan: And you’re just [00:54:15] like, oh my God. Like, what do I do about this now? Do you know, like it’s really difficult to deal with. So [00:54:20] there’s stuff like that happens. Then you have things like people turn up to work on drugs. [00:54:25] Had that happen to me before?

[TRANSITION]: On drugs. On drugs? Yeah. Like.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. I mean, I didn’t [00:54:30] even know what was going on. I had to, like, I was just like, I was relying on my practice manager to tell me. I was [00:54:35] just like, I haven’t got a clue. But, you know, stuff like that happens. Um, you know, people [00:54:40] turn up and, you know, we’ve we had one recently. I mean, I can’t even talk about [00:54:45] it. But anyway, there’s all this type of thing that happens where often.

Payman Langroudi: Right, because there’s 200. [00:54:50]

[TRANSITION]: Dentists and often.

Payman Langroudi: How many other people? Sorry, 200.

[TRANSITION]: Dentists.

Anushika Brogan: We’ve got 400 staff, [00:54:55] over 400.

[TRANSITION]: Staff on top of the.

Payman Langroudi: 200 dentists.

[TRANSITION]: 600 humans. [00:55:00] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I take my hat off to you, I really do. And three kids and.

[TRANSITION]: Three children.

Anushika Brogan: And [00:55:05] the three children. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: So tell me about.

Payman Langroudi: Other growing pains, that other growing [00:55:10] pains, the difference between managing a 20 site place and a five site place [00:55:15] or a 40 site place.

Anushika Brogan: Do you know when you’ve got smaller, smaller numbers of sites? [00:55:20] You can keep your eye on things more, and when there’s lots of sites you just can’t, you have [00:55:25] to trust the people that you trust. And sometimes you can’t trust them. Like [00:55:30] I’ve had one time we found £10,000 of our money from [00:55:35] the till. Like it wasn’t getting banked. We were like, where is it? Where is it? It was in the shed.

[TRANSITION]: It was in [00:55:40] a.

Anushika Brogan: Carrier bag in the shed. We had to go and like, you know, look through the whole thing, but like, you know, you [00:55:45] but you can’t you can’t have control over every site. So you have to just, [00:55:50] like, be okay with losing control a little bit. I think. Whereas you tightly [00:55:55] control a smaller business.

Payman Langroudi: I’d imagine it’s really difficult to keep culture going through so many sites [00:56:00] though, you know, like for the for it to feel the same in each place.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: And [00:56:05] I think a lot of it depends on who the manager is.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Practice manager role is critical. [00:56:10] Absolutely critical I would say.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a hierarchy within [00:56:15] the practice? The practice manager in charge in the practice over the dentist or or is there a lead [00:56:20] dentist in each practice?

[TRANSITION]: No, we don’t.

Anushika Brogan: Have lead dentists. We have the practice manager is the person who organises [00:56:25] everything for the dentists.

Payman Langroudi: So that must be a friction point [00:56:30] though sometimes, right?

Anushika Brogan: No, because their role is to support the dentists. So [00:56:35] it’s not it’s not friction because I mean sometimes it becomes [00:56:40] friction. And then you have to make them understand that their job is to look after the dentist. [00:56:45] Right. So there’s no friction. There needs to be no friction. It’s really important that there is no friction. [00:56:50] So it does sometimes happen because you know dentists are unmanageable right? So most of them [00:56:55] most of them are. They don’t like being told what to do. They’re self-employed. They want [00:57:00] to do whatever they want to do. But I think that, you know, we are very understanding [00:57:05] as a business, like, you know, if someone has issues with childcare, issues with like, parents, [00:57:10] I’m very, very understanding of those things. And that’s what our managers have always been taught. But [00:57:15] if you take the Mickey out of us, out. So it’s [00:57:20] that kind of thing.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the Associate experience at DiMera. [00:57:25] How does that compare to the associate? Experience at an independent [00:57:30] or an or any other business? What would you say is your sort of value [00:57:35] add as an employer with dentists?

Anushika Brogan: I think the most important thing is that [00:57:40] because I’m still in practice, I really understand what they are going through. [00:57:45] So we just did a conversion to dentistry, right? So we just converted all of our [00:57:50] sites to dentistry from. So yeah. And at the time we were doing it, I [00:57:55] know it’s the right thing to do because everything has to be cloud based and it’s much easier for people to access. You can write [00:58:00] your notes at home. All of the good things that come with being on a cloud based system. But, [00:58:05] you know, obviously clinicians, any change, everyone’s going crazy [00:58:10] about it. And everyone like a supporter of us, were like, we’ve got to do this. It’s [00:58:15] really important. We have to do it. We have to do it, blah, blah, blah. But when I went into surgery and [00:58:20] I’m trying to create a treatment plan and I’ve got like 20 minutes to do it. And, you know, you don’t know what [00:58:25] you’re doing and all the rest of it.

[TRANSITION]: You felt the pain.

Anushika Brogan: I could feel that pain. And on our dentist WhatsApp [00:58:30] chat I was like, guys, this is hard, isn’t it? You know, like, I’m there with them, having those those [00:58:35] conversations with them so I know exactly what they’re going through. But also, I think when you’re [00:58:40] a clinician, things like, um, I notes and stuff like that that [00:58:45] are coming through that, that is the first thing I’ve gone ahead with and put into my business, [00:58:50] because how much time does that save us as clinicians? But not everybody’s kind of got the [00:58:55] same mindset because it’s expensive. But for me, time is money.

Payman Langroudi: So which [00:59:00] system do you go with?

Anushika Brogan: Um, we’re going with we’re trialling chairside at the moment.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, [00:59:05] I really.

Anushika Brogan: Like the guys. It’s so.

[TRANSITION]: Nice. Yeah. Good people. Good.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Really good.

Payman Langroudi: So okay, so from [00:59:10] the associates perspective, the boss is a dentist, so understands their pain.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. Understands [00:59:15] their pain.

[TRANSITION]: What else?

Anushika Brogan: I think I think it’s that whole family feel [00:59:20] that, you know, I really want them to know that, you know, if they’ve got a problem, they can pick up the phone [00:59:25] and ring me. And a lot of them do, you know, they WhatsApp me, they call me, they talk to me. And, [00:59:30] you know, I want them to know that they’ve got a really supportive person at the top, not someone [00:59:35] who’s going to be like, oh, hang on a minute, you’re an hour late. What’s going, you know, blah, blah, blah. Life [00:59:40] happens, right? Like, I know enough of my life has happened. You’ve got [00:59:45] to be understanding to people’s circumstances because if someone’s a really good associate and then suddenly [00:59:50] they’re getting divorced, of course they’re not going to work at the same pace, but it’s a phase and they’re going [00:59:55] to go through it, and then they’re going to come out the other end, and then they’re going to be great again. But they should know that.

[TRANSITION]: Is [01:00:00] there with them.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a separate clinical lead apart from you?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, I’ve got a clinical advisor. Yeah. [01:00:05] Who does all of the like all the regulation stuff.

[TRANSITION]: The regulations.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. Where you [01:00:10] have to read because I’m just like.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t like.

[TRANSITION]: Reading? Reading.

Anushika Brogan: I like listening to audiobooks, [01:00:15] not reading. So. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So that [01:00:20] person. So if someone, let’s say someone’s from overseas, you must get quite a lot of overseas dentists.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Someone’s [01:00:25] overseas. They’ve got that nightmare experience. Yeah. And they don’t know anything about [01:00:30] the NHS. Have you got a programme that they go through to understand the NHS?

Anushika Brogan: So, so [01:00:35] I do, I do a training session myself on NHS regulations that Nikolai also [01:00:40] joins with. So he’s our clinical advisor and he comes and does some of the [01:00:45] regulations. But we send a lot of documentation out to them as well about at any time, like things [01:00:50] change, like, you know, with Phosphonates anything like that, it goes out. We have a clinical huddle [01:00:55] that goes out every Friday. So any, any news that’s happened in the week goes out in [01:01:00] that. So it goes out on WhatsApp.

Payman Langroudi: Do you want to talk about your divorce? [01:01:05]

Anushika Brogan: Do you want to talk about my divorce? I do.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Anushika Brogan: Let’s [01:01:10] talk about my.

[TRANSITION]: Divorce aspect.

Payman Langroudi: Of of divorce that I’m interested with someone like you is [01:01:15] that this is almost like a in an Asian community. It’s like shame in it. Yeah. [01:01:20] Did you feel that?

Anushika Brogan: Uh, no. Not at the [01:01:25] point where I got divorced. I didn’t feel shame. No.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your advice? I mean, there [01:01:30] must be unhappy people listening to this. Yeah. Yeah. And that, that aspect. [01:01:35] I’m really interested in that aspect here, because I’m sure there’s a bunch of people not getting out [01:01:40] of relationships because of what that will look like.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: A lot of people. [01:01:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: And I think I actually only got married because of what it would look like at [01:01:50] the point where I was so far in that it would have looked, would have looked bad [01:01:55] for me to back out the.

Payman Langroudi: Families.

[TRANSITION]: And all that. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. So, like [01:02:00] my in-laws family and they are really nice people. Now, [01:02:05] in hindsight, I’m older. I understand them a little bit better. Like, you know, I [01:02:10] think when you’re 20 something years old and you’re immature and feisty, and I always feisty. [01:02:15] I bet you can imagine I was really feisty, as you wouldn’t want me [01:02:20] as a daughter in law. Really, because I’ve got such a strong head. But my mother in law also [01:02:25] had a really strong head. Like she was really strong minded and really controlling, and it [01:02:30] was probably really difficult for her because she just probably didn’t know how to handle me. She had two sons [01:02:35] who literally did everything that she asked of them. And then this daughter in-law comes along [01:02:40] and was just like, don’t really agree with you. You know, I’m very opinionated.

[TRANSITION]: So [01:02:45] have you got empathy.

Payman Langroudi: Now that if one of your sons comes back with a girl and.

[TRANSITION]: And. [01:02:50]

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, I think so, I think so.

[TRANSITION]: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: But empathy to her situation, to your mother in law’s situation. [01:02:55] And like, you know, when you say the sons did everything their mother wanted them to, your son [01:03:00] does everything you want him to do. My my sons say everything. You know what I mean. You’re not asking [01:03:05] him to do much, right?

Anushika Brogan: My my sons. I think I’ve brought them up really independently. I don’t [01:03:10] I was brought up really independently, and so, um, because my [01:03:15] parents always tried to make me think for myself rather than them [01:03:20] think for me, like, you know, it’s it’s, um. And that was the biggest difference was that [01:03:25] my, um, ex-husband’s family, they they very much do whatever [01:03:30] the parents say. Whereas in my family, it wasn’t like that. Yeah, yeah. And don’t question it. Whereas, you know, [01:03:35] if I, if I did something wrong, my, my sons have called me out 100%. They’d call me out.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm. [01:03:40]

Anushika Brogan: Which is the, which is. Right. Right. Like we’re all human and.

Payman Langroudi: You’re the youngest of how.

[TRANSITION]: Many? [01:03:45]

Anushika Brogan: Um, there’s only me. I had a brother, but he passed away.

[TRANSITION]: Oh. I’m sorry. Yeah. I’m [01:03:50] sorry. So.

Payman Langroudi: And you said your your your dad had shot, but your dad was a [01:03:55] biologist. He was.

[TRANSITION]: A chemist.

Payman Langroudi: Chemist? Chemist.

Anushika Brogan: He was a chemist.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. And he worked on [01:04:00] erythromycin.

Payman Langroudi: Was it erythromycin?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’m remembering that.

[TRANSITION]: Now. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: That’s [01:04:05] good. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. So.

Payman Langroudi: So that that sort of way that you were brought up [01:04:10] slightly different to the norm of like Asian families. Although I [01:04:15] spent a lot of time in Kent, we’re in Kent, where I spent my first 4 or 5 years as a dentist in [01:04:20] Kent. Did you? Yeah. And by mistake, actually. Um, but the [01:04:25] I, you know, Kentish people I found really interesting, man, that very, very sort of [01:04:30] straightforward, down to earth people. And I remember even then I was there to, you [01:04:35] know. Yeah. From around the, the late 90s, [01:04:40] early 2000, there were hardly anyone who wasn’t Kentish in Kent. [01:04:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I was in the big, bigger city. You Isle of Sheppey. Yeah. I was in Ashford and Folkestone. [01:04:50] Bigger, bigger towns. And yet there were very few.

[TRANSITION]: It’s hardly.

Payman Langroudi: A non-English.

[TRANSITION]: People.

Anushika Brogan: Hardly [01:04:55] any Asians, hardly any like other people. Even now, like, you know, it’s very. [01:05:00]

Payman Langroudi: Even now compared to, compared to the rest of the country.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. Very English. So.

Payman Langroudi: So do you think that sort of that [01:05:05] being brought up in that environment, that suburban sort of Kentish Environment was [01:05:10] actually a factor that made your upbringing different too.

[TRANSITION]: Because a.

Payman Langroudi: Lot of Asian families, [01:05:15] there’s a comparison thing going.

[TRANSITION]: On. Yeah, definitely.

Anushika Brogan: And I had no cousins here, so [01:05:20] I had no family here. So actually we weren’t typically [01:05:25] Asian.

[TRANSITION]: I would say. Yeah, yeah.

Anushika Brogan: You know, I really had a big shock when I came to King’s and everyone [01:05:30] was Asian and it was really competitive. I was just like, what’s happened to me? I don’t know, I don’t know what’s going on. [01:05:35] So I found it really difficult adjusting.

Payman Langroudi: Is your mum a very strong [01:05:40] woman? Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Very, very strong woman. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: She is. [01:05:45]

Payman Langroudi: What were you like in Dental school? Were you like, what kind of like were you? The [01:05:50] study hard, top of your class type?

[TRANSITION]: No, no.

Anushika Brogan: I was always a [01:05:55] scrape through her.

[TRANSITION]: I two, me two.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah I didn’t, I didn’t.

[TRANSITION]: Is that.

Payman Langroudi: 2080 thing? [01:06:00]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. 20% work or 80% party.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. I mean, [01:06:05] I’ve always like, you know, liked a good time, but I think I really struggled to know [01:06:10] who I was when I went to dental school. I was really happy at school, and when I [01:06:15] came to London I just felt like totally lost. I just felt like totally lost. Why? [01:06:20]

[TRANSITION]: Because. Because you went from the small.

Payman Langroudi: Town to a big town.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. I just didn’t fit in. I didn’t.

Anushika Brogan: I felt [01:06:25] like I always thought when I was in Kent that when I was with Asians, I would fit in. And [01:06:30] then when I came and was with Asians, I didn’t fit in. And it really just threw me. I [01:06:35] was just like, who am I? I’ve got no, like, identity. I don’t know where I, where I am. Like, [01:06:40] you know, and I didn’t make friends very easily. And then like, you know, my friendships I’ve, [01:06:45] I’ve got friends from school still that I’m still best friends with. I’ve got like my home [01:06:50] friends I’m still best friends with.

[TRANSITION]: They’re the best.

Anushika Brogan: They’re the best.

[TRANSITION]: Best friends. Definitely.

Anushika Brogan: But, um. [01:06:55]

[TRANSITION]: But not uni. Not uni, not uni. So it was pretty sad timing. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: I didn’t [01:07:00] have a good time. Didn’t have a good time at all.

[TRANSITION]: It’s weird. Just didn’t have a good time. Yeah. [01:07:05]

Anushika Brogan: Just didn’t have a good time. Just didn’t didn’t really find my crew. Like, you know who I really fitted in [01:07:10] with.

[TRANSITION]: And how.

Payman Langroudi: Long like, when was it that you felt like you found comfort, [01:07:15] peace, your voice, your. You know, I think.

Anushika Brogan: When I met my husband, my now [01:07:20] husband, I definitely feel like he has made me feel so much more secure in myself. [01:07:25] And, um, yeah, he’s kind of made me feel made [01:07:30] me see things differently about people quite a lot. He’s very grounded and he [01:07:35] was adopted. So he’s kind of like, you know, he’s had lots of drama in his own life, [01:07:40] but he’s very calm and rational. Just what I need because I’m chaotic. [01:07:45]

[TRANSITION]: So that’s how you would.

Payman Langroudi: How old were you when you met him?

Anushika Brogan: Um, in my 30s.

[TRANSITION]: Wow. [01:07:50]

Anushika Brogan: 30? 33?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, [01:07:55] 30. So I do.

Payman Langroudi: A podcast with Rhona as well. I don’t know if you’ve seen that one, but. But she always talks about [01:08:00] as a as a lady. I’m sure it’s not the same for everyone, but as a lady in your 30s, you [01:08:05] get sort of more confident.

[TRANSITION]: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: And I sort of think of it as [01:08:10] like, you know, the Princess Di effect, you know, like she was much more attractive in her [01:08:15] 30s than she was when she was 21 or whatever she was when she got married.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Because I could see I didn’t have [01:08:20] confidence.

Anushika Brogan: I didn’t have, like so much confidence when I was younger, I think I think I was confident [01:08:25] at school. But when I got because.

Payman Langroudi: You were getting the grades or.

Anushika Brogan: Whatever. Yeah. I mean, yeah, [01:08:30] let’s not talk about my grades. Yeah. But you know, I [01:08:35] was confident because I just felt secure and I felt loved by my family and, you [01:08:40] know, all the rest of it. And when I came to uni, I just, I just, I don’t know, that period is just really unhappy period [01:08:45] for me in my head. So but you know, it passed.

[TRANSITION]: But do you think.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, do you think it’s [01:08:50] a woman thing? Like I think it is. Yeah I do. So now you’ve got a daughter. I’ve got a daughter. Yeah. Are [01:08:55] you addressing that somehow?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: I mean, I think I think it’s really difficult because [01:09:00] I think my, my mum was particularly hard on me when I was growing up, because my [01:09:05] brother was always more sensitive, and I was definitely the stronger out of the two of us.

[TRANSITION]: So she [01:09:10] the younger sometimes. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. And I think I’ll probably do it to my middle son as well. [01:09:15] I probably am a little bit harder on him because I think he can handle it.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. So. [01:09:20]

Anushika Brogan: Um, but with with my daughter, you know, I just both of us, my husband [01:09:25] and I both really try and tell her all the time that she’s beautiful and, you know, all of those things that girls [01:09:30] need to hear, I think. I think girls need to hear it.

Payman Langroudi: Really, really, really. Yeah. So [01:09:35] I think there’s a I’ve always worry about, you know, like confidence and arrogance. And [01:09:40] even though they’re nothing like each other. Yeah. They’re in the same kind of ballpark. [01:09:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I hear you.

Payman Langroudi: They’re very different things. Right. But I’ve got [01:09:50] I’ve got one friend like he picks up his kids, like, big time. And I think it’s very [01:09:55] much, you know, like saying that. And then I asked him about it and he [01:10:00] said. He said, look, the world will break them down. Your job is to build them up, which is another [01:10:05] great way of looking at it.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I think it’s.

Anushika Brogan: A great way of looking.

Payman Langroudi: At yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. But [01:10:10] I don’t know, I, I my wife says you want to be their friend, not their father. [01:10:15]

[TRANSITION]: You know, the.

Anushika Brogan: Only, the only thing I would say is that if you are too, if [01:10:20] you’re too soft on your children, they don’t have any.

[TRANSITION]: Resilience. True.

Anushika Brogan: And resilience [01:10:25] is so important. It’s key, isn’t it? Like with children. I’ve just [01:10:30] seen a few examples of that where kids are so supported by their parents [01:10:35] that then they just they can’t cope with life. And you’re like, come on, you need to be able to cope [01:10:40] because like, stuff happens, right? Stuff happens all the time.

Payman Langroudi: So your kids [01:10:45] are proper privileged kids, right? Would you would you agree with that?

Anushika Brogan: I [01:10:50] mean, in theory, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Of course. Yeah. Um, but have you ever had to do something [01:10:55] like in the bringing them up to sort of bring them back down to earth and.

[TRANSITION]: I.

Anushika Brogan: I [01:11:00] took a decision probably about 7 or 8 years ago where, [01:11:05] um, I felt like my kids were being a bit spoilt.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, [01:11:10] right.

Anushika Brogan: And so I really cut everything in terms of spending, because [01:11:15] I think that sometimes it’s really difficult in, in, in a position where, like you’re a dentist [01:11:20] or anything because you do have more money than a lot of people and it’s like, it’s great. But when [01:11:25] your kids just don’t understand the value of money, it’s actually quite dangerous. Yeah. So, [01:11:30] um, my kids, until they were and this is this is quite embarrassing. [01:11:35] But I’m going to tell you anyway, my kids, until they were about 18, were wearing like, Primark clothes and stuff [01:11:40] because I’m like, do you know what they need to understand that, you know, a lot of their friends [01:11:45] are wearing designer stuff and this and that. And I’m just like, when you earn it, you can wear it.

[TRANSITION]: Right? [01:11:50]

Anushika Brogan: Because actually, like, you know, it’s fine, but you [01:11:55] have to go and make your mark on the world and life. I’ve done my bit, but [01:12:00] you have to do that. Then come back at some point, because I think it’s really important that they have [01:12:05] self-pride and they have hunger themselves, because otherwise they’ll just say, all right, mum’s done it. It’s [01:12:10] all right. Dad’s done it, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Do you, for instance, make them go get a job? [01:12:15] Have they ever done a job?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Both of them have done job. Both of them have. My [01:12:20] youngest one was a bit wild, right. So he used to like, you know, bring his friends around. He’s [01:12:25] broken trampolines in the garden. He’s gone and earned the money back.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, yeah.

Anushika Brogan: It’s gone and [01:12:30] worked in a barber’s and earnt the money back to pay for the trampoline. Yeah, I’m.

[TRANSITION]: Quite like.

Anushika Brogan: That. Yeah, [01:12:35] yeah. They’re not just spoilt. Definitely not.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to darker days, [01:12:40] okay. On this pod, we like to talk about mistakes. Clinical [01:12:45] errors first.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Um, because, you know, black box [01:12:50] thinking. Let’s listen to that book. The plane crashes. No one looks [01:12:55] for blame.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Look at the black box and say this is what went wrong. Yeah. And they tell all [01:13:00] the pilots around the world this is what went wrong. So it doesn’t happen again.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But we don’t in in medical Dental [01:13:05] we hide our mistakes because blame is the key, that somehow people [01:13:10] we feel the system itself wants to blame someone. And so we tend to hide [01:13:15] our mistakes or not talk about them. Hence, I don’t learn from your mistake. You don’t learn from mine. The community [01:13:20] doesn’t learn from the mistakes.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So to buck that trend.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Any clinical. [01:13:25] What comes to mind when I say clinical error?

Anushika Brogan: I mean, once I, [01:13:30] I was very early on doing implants and I didn’t take the impression out early [01:13:35] enough and an impression got stuck in a patient’s mouth with an implant screw in it. That was.

[TRANSITION]: Bad. Oh, [01:13:40] nightmare.

Anushika Brogan: Oh, it was bad. I had to cut the impression tray, [01:13:45] cut the thing, and I was like, I just could not get it out. And it was so early [01:13:50] in my implant career. We’re talking like 15 years ago, and there was no one around doing [01:13:55] implants. I was there by myself. No one could help me. I had to just figure out how to do it. Luckily [01:14:00] I had a nice patient, but place implants?

[TRANSITION]: I used to really?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, I [01:14:05] used to.

[TRANSITION]: Not anymore.

Payman Langroudi: So. Okay. You cut it off like they take a long, [01:14:10] long time to.

Anushika Brogan: Cut it off. Took me like, an hour to cut it off.

Payman Langroudi: What did the patient say?

[TRANSITION]: She was. [01:14:15]

Anushika Brogan: Fine. She’s like one of my regulars. Thank God. One of these that been there for 20 years. Like she was fine. [01:14:20] I just said to her, I am so sorry. I’m learning at the moment. But, you know, I mean, it must have been really [01:14:25] uncomfortable. I gave her a massive discount off her implant. I was like.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, it’s not okay.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:14:30] that’s a good one to learn from. But go on, just explain it to someone who’s listening. What would you now look out [01:14:35] for like undercuts?

[TRANSITION]: Is that the point?

Anushika Brogan: No, it was just.

[TRANSITION]: Because, you know.

Payman Langroudi: It went wrong. What didn’t [01:14:40] you see that you would see this time?

[TRANSITION]: So.

Anushika Brogan: So no. So basically, I’d not open the [01:14:45] door, you know, when you, um, so if you use the, uh, I think it’s open tray impression.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Right.

Anushika Brogan: So [01:14:50] you have to find the screw, don’t you?

[TRANSITION]: Yes. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: And so you have to find the screw so that you can unscrew [01:14:55] it.

[TRANSITION]: So I didn’t find the screw.

Anushika Brogan: Oh, right. And then the screw got stuck inside the impression. [01:15:00] And I had to literally cut it off. It took me ages to find the screw. And it set so [01:15:05] hard. And then it kept on setting and setting. It just got harder and harder. I was just like, oh, no. It [01:15:10] took me ages to actually unpick it. It was really bad.

[TRANSITION]: So that’s a goodie. I like that one. Yeah. [01:15:15] What about.

Payman Langroudi: Business mistake?

Anushika Brogan: Uh, business mistake [01:15:20] was going into business without understanding shareholding. I think if you are [01:15:25] ever doing shares with anybody, you need to understand what you’re getting yourself into because [01:15:30] there are too many instances. And actually, that was one of the things that [01:15:35] probably scared me about private equity as well, that, you know, they wanted 51% of my business, [01:15:40] but then majority shareholding, they can kick you out any time. So and I didn’t [01:15:45] I didn’t understand that at all. When I got into the into business with my ex mother in law, [01:15:50] she didn’t understand it.

Payman Langroudi: To check. Check your shareholding. [01:15:55]

[TRANSITION]: Check your shares. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: And just like, get some advice from [01:16:00] someone who can actually tell you, like a lawyer or someone like that who will actually tell you properly what you’re getting [01:16:05] yourself into. Get independent advice. Because it’s hard, especially with family, because you feel [01:16:10] like they should know and what they’re telling you is right. But actually you do need to understand it because [01:16:15] there’s consequences, right?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So darkest [01:16:20] day.

Anushika Brogan: Darkest day was when.

Payman Langroudi: Dental darkest day. [01:16:25] Of course.

Anushika Brogan: Dental. Yeah. Dental darkest day. I think I was right in the middle of [01:16:30] my, um, divorce. And it was really, really stressful. Like, really [01:16:35] stressful. There was there was points where I was just like, you know, and I’m really strong person, [01:16:40] I think. And I was, you know, very, very anxious. And I had to run a practice [01:16:45] managers meeting. At that time, all my practice managers used to come to my house for my practice managers [01:16:50] meeting, you know, used to have tea and coffee and entertain. I walked in, burst into [01:16:55] tears, and I was like, I can’t do this today. And just had to walk [01:17:00] back out again. And do you know what? All my managers were amazing. Some of them were still with me now, [01:17:05] but you know, those ones who’ve seen me in that kind [01:17:10] of environment and then seen like, you know, how things have changed. [01:17:15] You know, they’re great because they’ve been there the whole journey.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you seem [01:17:20] like a very together person, right?

[TRANSITION]: Mentally, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, like [01:17:25] to become as fit as you are, right? To run marathons and do Spartans and all that. It takes a [01:17:30] degree of training, right? Yeah. Have you had mental training? Have you had a counsellor? Have you [01:17:35] looked into.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I.

Anushika Brogan: Had I had therapy after my divorce.

[TRANSITION]: Did it help?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, [01:17:40] it really helped a lot, a lot.

[TRANSITION]: And again, we.

Payman Langroudi: Need to normalise that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, 100%. [01:17:45] You know, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: If it’s like, just like you go to a trainer. Yeah, to train [01:17:50] your muscles. Yeah. You need to train your brain. Yeah. And one thing that’s made a lot [01:17:55] of difference. Where I recommended therapy to a lot of people who I thought needed it. Right. I [01:18:00] wanted it to change it from need to want. Yeah. Number one and number two, [01:18:05] you know, it’s a there’s a spectrum right at the bottom of at the end of it. Let’s let’s [01:18:10] not beat about the bush. Loads of dentists kill themselves.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Loads [01:18:15] of dentists take their own lives.

[TRANSITION]: Yes. Yes they do.

Payman Langroudi: At the at the other full. Other end of it [01:18:20] is this super optimised dude. You know who’s doing like you like someone super [01:18:25] optimised here. And wherever you are in that, in that spectrum, [01:18:30] you can always move up. So. So, you know, the stigma of therapy [01:18:35] that is somehow incorrect. There’s a bunch of people, a bunch of CEOs [01:18:40] having training to become the best CEOs they can be, whatever it is. Optimisation.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, absolutely. And [01:18:45] I think I think the thing to remember is I wasn’t always like this. You know, I was I [01:18:50] was just a girl. And I came from the Isle of Sheppey. And actually, it’s been part of my journey where [01:18:55] I’ve always wanted to be a better version of myself. And whether that’s, you [01:19:00] know, training for something, whether it’s getting therapy, whether it’s pushing myself in business, like [01:19:05] I always want to be a better version of myself. And I think that that should be the goal, that if if [01:19:10] you feel like something’s not working out or something’s not right, you need to just try and work [01:19:15] out what you can do to make that better, you know? And it’s okay if it’s therapy, [01:19:20] if it’s medication, whatever it is, you know, you need to just go, I’ve got a problem, [01:19:25] but I can’t be the first person with this problem. Let me find the solution.

[TRANSITION]: You know [01:19:30] I like that.

Payman Langroudi: What what what sticks in your mind as the best course you went on or courses [01:19:35] that anything that sticks in your mind. As far as education.

Anushika Brogan: I really liked, um, I [01:19:40] did a course by a lab called frontier, um, back in the day. [01:19:45]

[TRANSITION]: And it was.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, they came here and did it.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Anushika Brogan: And so I’d [01:19:50] just randomly signed up to it.

[TRANSITION]: Veneers. Veneers. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: And it was during that period where everyone [01:19:55] was having veneers. But it was it was a small design course more than anything else. But it was [01:20:00] like a, you know, a program. It was brilliant. It really changed my life.

[TRANSITION]: Clicked for you.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, [01:20:05] really changed my clinical practice, really changed my clinical practice. And I felt so much more confident afterwards [01:20:10] doing stuff. Yeah, it was good. Really enjoyed.

[TRANSITION]: It.

Payman Langroudi: What about dentists [01:20:15] that you’ve looked up to?

[TRANSITION]: Um.

Anushika Brogan: Like clinicians. [01:20:20]

Payman Langroudi: Like I said, you’re one. You are one of my dental business heroes.

[TRANSITION]: You [01:20:25] really are. You really are.

Payman Langroudi: You Payman because of what you’ve achieved with. You know, I don’t [01:20:30] like this narrative about it’s harder for women than men outside of kids. When [01:20:35] you get kids into the equation. Well, yeah, of course it’s harder for women than men.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, but I think I think [01:20:40] it it definitely is. And I think it’s it’s more I think it’s difficult [01:20:45] for women generally. But I’m not a feminist. You know, I really [01:20:50] I think that, you know, if you want something bad enough, you can achieve it whether you’re a man or a woman. [01:20:55] And, you know, I like to give the men a run for their money rather than, you know, I don’t want [01:21:00] any special.

[TRANSITION]: Discounts for.

Anushika Brogan: Being a woman, you.

[TRANSITION]: Know?

Payman Langroudi: But you’ve had kids. What I’m saying is, you’re one of my heroes [01:21:05] in that respect.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Who are yours?

Payman Langroudi: And which dentist has inspired [01:21:10] you?

Anushika Brogan: I think probably the first practice owner I worked for. He inspired [01:21:15] me quite a lot. I think he’s probably, you know, the person who, like, [01:21:20] you know, pushed me on my journey.

Payman Langroudi: The value of that first boss. Right. The trajectory of that first [01:21:25] one. My first boss was an absolute hero. I’m still in touch with him. Wonderful guy. Yeah, there would be no enlightened [01:21:30] if it wasn’t for him. He had this thing about. Why not? Why not?

[TRANSITION]: Let’s just try it. Just do it. Just [01:21:35] try it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and, you know, we have to think about. You have to think about [01:21:40] this. The massive responsibility that you’ve got being the first boss of so many [01:21:45] dentists. Yeah, yeah. The first UK boss, let’s say. Yeah. Or the first boss. Right. [01:21:50] I’m sure you’re getting people out of it as well, right? Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. Ft plus one. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Types. Massive [01:21:55] responsibility, man.

[TRANSITION]: It is, it is. Do you feel.

Payman Langroudi: The weight of it or.

[TRANSITION]: No. You don’t feel the weight of anything? No. [01:22:00]

Anushika Brogan: I love it. I’m a people’s person. So I feel like if I can [01:22:05] help people along the way, inspire them along the way, I’m really happy to do that.

Payman Langroudi: If [01:22:10] you were to bump into that, Anushka, who was in the middle of the divorce or [01:22:15] or in, in in dental school unhappy. What would [01:22:20] you say to her?

Anushika Brogan: Oh, [01:22:25] I don’t know. Because the thing is, like you can say, oh, [01:22:30] it’s all going to work out and you’ll be okay, but you don’t really believe it until it happens to you, [01:22:35] do you? You don’t. Like, I don’t think there are any words that you can say [01:22:40] to someone, you just have to kind of live it first. And actually, I needed to live that [01:22:45] trauma to make me stronger.

[TRANSITION]: So it’s very true.

Anushika Brogan: You know, there’s [01:22:50] not really any words that would console me at that point.

[TRANSITION]: I think it’s very true. [01:22:55]

Payman Langroudi: So it’s an interesting question, right, that I think this question is very interesting. Let’s say I know [01:23:00] you said you don’t want to, but let’s say some Russian billionaire comes and gives you $100 million to leave. [01:23:05] Yeah. And you leave. Yeah, yeah. What do you end up doing the day [01:23:10] after? Right. What is that thing now you said about travel? Yeah. I don’t know, maybe you and your husband [01:23:15] go travel and whatever it is in your case, like walk the trail across the [01:23:20] Peru Inca Trail or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Then let’s [01:23:25] say what happens the next day? The next day? The next day? Yeah. It generally ends up as something quite simple. [01:23:30] Yeah. A simple, peaceful life with your family and friends and all that. Yeah. [01:23:35] And it makes you wonder, right? The question of Why can’t you just do that thing? Like. [01:23:40] And what you said is quite interesting because sometimes it takes that journey, [01:23:45] the ups and downs of trials and tribulations, to selling it for £100 million, to finally get it out of your [01:23:50] system, that you are this successful sibling or whatever, whatever the particular [01:23:55] mess up is in your head. Yeah. To then be relaxed enough [01:24:00] to do this super simple thing like, I don’t know, some one guy might want to sit on [01:24:05] the beach and write poems.

Anushika Brogan: See, I feel like I would get bored. [01:24:10]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, well.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever the thing is.

[TRANSITION]: For you. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: See, I think I think even now, like. So we’ve [01:24:15] got an apartment in France, and, like, we go there quite a lot because it’s like. It’s like a haven. It’s.

[TRANSITION]: So [01:24:20] you said you.

Payman Langroudi: Run, run and all that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: So, like, you can run there, you can mountain bike there, you can ski there. It’s [01:24:25] really peaceful and I love it. But after a few weeks I’m like, I want to come home. I need [01:24:30] a bit of, you know, excitement and passion and chaos, like, you know, where’s things going [01:24:35] wrong? And people calling me and.

[TRANSITION]: Like, you know.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve pondered on that for me. For me. I quite like sitting [01:24:40] by the pool with waiting for 2 or 3 emails. Yeah, I quite enjoyed that. [01:24:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I’m with my family.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe there’s a barbecue going on. There’s three important emails have to come in [01:24:50] that I’m that I’m trying to deal with. Yeah, that that combination of things to me [01:24:55] is quite. I’m kind of happy in that combination. Me too. But yeah, but you might be. No, you might be like, you want Monday morning, [01:25:00] meet the whole team. You know, some people are just more more into it [01:25:05] than others.

Anushika Brogan: I need a bit more of that and a bit more of that. So I [01:25:10] think I’m a bit more extreme.

[TRANSITION]: Maybe that’s what it is. Right, right. Yeah. Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:25:15] I really, really enjoyed this conversation and I really have, we’ve come [01:25:20] kind of to the end. Um we ended with the same questions. The [01:25:25] first one is a fantasy dinner party. Three guests [01:25:30] dead or alive. Who would you have.

Anushika Brogan: Um, And the [01:25:35] first one would definitely be my brother. Oh, I think, you know, I didn’t really get a chance to [01:25:40] talk to him and say everything that I wanted to say before [01:25:45] he passed away.

[TRANSITION]: When did he pass away?

Anushika Brogan: Passed away? Um, it would be 11 years this year. [01:25:50] Really? Suddenly had a brain haemorrhage. So that was quite sudden. And then, [01:25:55] um. Yeah, just kind of, I don’t know, just kind of slipped [01:26:00] really quickly. Um, he was really sweet, though. He’s really [01:26:05] sweet.

[TRANSITION]: So you had a.

Payman Langroudi: Good relationship with him before that.

[TRANSITION]: Happened? Yeah. I mean.

Anushika Brogan: When [01:26:10] we were younger, we didn’t. We fought.

[TRANSITION]: Like dogs.

Anushika Brogan: But as we got older, definitely. And, you know, one of [01:26:15] the I think, I think partly one of the things that is things that really pushed me along is [01:26:20] when the last visit that I made to him in hospital, the last time he spoke, [01:26:25] he had a nurse who was doing changing some dressings or something of his. And, [01:26:30] um, he pulled the curtain around and I said to him, I’m just [01:26:35] going to wait outside. And he was telling the nurse, have you seen my sister? That’s my sister outside. [01:26:40] She’s a business tycoon, like, you know, you could tell he was proud of me and he’d never [01:26:45] said it. He would never say it to my face. Not ever. Ever. But, you know, like that just carries me quite [01:26:50] a lot. But I just feel like I would love to talk to him again. I’d love to speak to him again. [01:26:55] It’s quite hard. So he’d be one second. One would be Elon Musk, because [01:27:00] I find the guy absolutely fascinating, I find him, I don’t know, people [01:27:05] love him or hate him, but I just find him fascinating and I just like to just spend an evening [01:27:10] talking to him and understanding him a little bit.

Payman Langroudi: He’s extraordinary.

Anushika Brogan: Extraordinary.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not the first time [01:27:15] he’s been invited to this.

[TRANSITION]: To this dinner party. No. He comes. He comes regularly.

Payman Langroudi: Regular [01:27:20] attendance in this sport.

Anushika Brogan: And the third one is Huberman. Have [01:27:25] you come across him? Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Of course.

Anushika Brogan: Really, really fascinating. I just find him because I’m interested [01:27:30] in, like, health and Optimisation. Yes, yes, I just think he’s amazing. [01:27:35] So I started listening.

[TRANSITION]: He’s very clever as well. Very clever. So clever. Yeah, yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Just even. [01:27:40] And he breaks everything down into like, you know, so people can understand it. I love that, I love that about.

[TRANSITION]: Did [01:27:45] you listen.

Payman Langroudi: To his Dental.

[TRANSITION]: Episode? No.

Payman Langroudi: He’s done a whole episode on Dental. Has he?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I haven’t yet.

Anushika Brogan: I [01:27:50] haven’t yet. I’ve only just like, you know, just started listening to all his stuff because I don’t get a lot of time, so. But I find him [01:27:55] fascinating because he’s doing a lot of stuff on, you know, how alcohol affects the body, how sleep and, [01:28:00] you know, all of that kind of stuff is really interesting, I like that.

[TRANSITION]: I know, I.

Payman Langroudi: Know, this doesn’t happen often [01:28:05] yet, but if you had half a day to yourself, what would you.

[TRANSITION]: Do? Go shopping. Oh, really? Every time. Really? [01:28:10]

Payman Langroudi: Is that your release?

[TRANSITION]: Oh, I love shopping. Is that your guilty pleasure?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. Yeah, I love shopping. I’m a shopaholic. [01:28:15] Love it.

Payman Langroudi: Final question. It’s [01:28:20] a deathbed question. You’re on your deathbed, surrounded [01:28:25] by everyone you love. What are three pieces [01:28:30] of advice you’d leave for them?

Anushika Brogan: Um. [01:28:35] I suppose it would be. [01:28:40] Don’t forget to work hard. That’d be one thing. Work hard. I think it’s really [01:28:45] important in life to work hard and have focus. Um, but I [01:28:50] think family are really important for me. I think always my family [01:28:55] have been so important, and they still are. And I think that that would be the [01:29:00] most important thing for me, um, to pass on to them as a family value. [01:29:05] Like, you know, just make sure you prioritise your family over everything else. Um, [01:29:10] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But your ex was prioritising his family over everything else that was [01:29:15] causing the problem.

Anushika Brogan: I think it your nucleus, [01:29:20] as in, like your immediate family. Like, you know, your nucleus should be, you know. So [01:29:25] if you’re married, then.

[TRANSITION]: Your your nuclear family. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Your nuclear family. Like, you know, my son’s got a girlfriend. Like I [01:29:30] want him to prioritise her. Doesn’t need to worry about me. He needs to prioritise her. She should be the most important person [01:29:35] in his life.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, okay.

[TRANSITION]: Um. Got it. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: That. And then. [01:29:40] And not like, I feel like it’s really important not to let [01:29:45] people down. I feel like, you know, if someone relies.

[TRANSITION]: On you, be reliable.

Anushika Brogan: Trust [01:29:50] you. Yeah. It’s important not to let people down.

Payman Langroudi: See, that’s an interesting [01:29:55] one. Yeah, because it implies you’ve got a choice in the matter and then you choose to be reliable. [01:30:00] Yeah, but some people just are and some people just aren’t. And [01:30:05] sometimes it’s not their choice.

Anushika Brogan: I disagree, [01:30:10] I think you you can choose to be reliable. Why do you think people can’t be reliable?

Payman Langroudi: Some people just [01:30:15] are and some people just aren’t. I think my two kids, you know, the.

Anushika Brogan: Children are [01:30:20] not children, but.

[TRANSITION]: Children.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a character, character type I.

Anushika Brogan: But I think [01:30:25] you can, you can, You can try and be reliable.

[TRANSITION]: Try and be.

Payman Langroudi: More reliable [01:30:30] than the day before.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, you should.

Anushika Brogan: Try and be. And I think, like, you know, you have to be taught [01:30:35] to be reliable. You do have to be taught to be reliable. But like, you know, if someone needs you, you show up, right? [01:30:40] Like, you know, my.

[TRANSITION]: Dad, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Really interesting, right? Because the three things that you’re saying are all [01:30:45] things that are outside yourself. Yeah. You know, look out for family, be [01:30:50] reliable, kind of work hard. Okay. Work hard. But it’s it [01:30:55] seems to me like you get most of your pleasure from serving others. [01:31:00]

[TRANSITION]: Maybe.

Anushika Brogan: Maybe I [01:31:05] spend a lot of time serving others. I think, um.

Payman Langroudi: I think [01:31:10] it’s amazing to be around, right? It’s amazing to have that person in your life. But, you know, there [01:31:15] is a downside to that as well, to bear in mind, to bear in mind. Yeah, but [01:31:20] you know what they call it people pleasing or whatever it is.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, I think I’ll have my time. [01:31:25] I think it’s just not right now. I think that at the moment I’m in that sandwich [01:31:30] kind of era where, you know, I’ve got kids who need me, I’ve got parents.

[TRANSITION]: Who need me. You look.

Payman Langroudi: Super [01:31:35] happy. So there’s no as long as you’re happy, everything else is happy. Everything else can, can, can [01:31:40] piss off, right?

[TRANSITION]: Long as you’re happy.

Anushika Brogan: But I think. I think you know, my, my, like I think [01:31:45] it’s about balance. And I think it’s about like, you know, prioritising balance at the moment. Like, my parents really [01:31:50] need me right now. So my priority is to be there for my parents. You know, my dad’s elderly, like, [01:31:55] you know, my mom’s having a hard time because he’s like, not very well. That’s my priority right now. [01:32:00] And actually, if I spend a little bit less time with my kids right now, they have to understand because nanny [01:32:05] and nanny need me, you know? So it’s about balance. And I think for me, [01:32:10] being reliable, for whether it’s my children, whether it’s my kids, whether it’s my best friends, like, you know, [01:32:15] be a reliable person, I think. And if you’re not reliable, I think people just I don’t know. That’s [01:32:20] not the values I would like to impart on my children.

[TRANSITION]: That was the question. That was the.

Payman Langroudi: Question. [01:32:25] That was the question. I’ve really enjoyed it. I’ve really enjoyed it. I’ve learnt loads again. [01:32:30]

[TRANSITION]: Have you?

Payman Langroudi: I really have. I really have. You’re an enigma. Really inspirational.

[TRANSITION]: Thank [01:32:35] you so much. Thank you so much for coming all the way. Thank you for having me.

Anushika Brogan: It’s been wonderful.

[VOICE]: This [01:32:40] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one [01:32:45] on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:32:50] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:32:55] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:33:00] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve [01:33:05] had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [01:33:10]

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [01:33:15] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. [01:33:20] Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is mind movers [00:00:10] moving the conversation forward on mental health and [00:00:15] optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:00:20] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Hello [00:00:25] everyone and welcome to another episode of Mind Movers. We have the privilege of speaking [00:00:30] to the incredibly talented Chinta miller. She is known around the world as a top makeup [00:00:35] artist. Chinta has created unforgettable looks for countless celebrities, but her journey goes beyond [00:00:40] the beauty industry. We actually met through a celebrity slash influencer. But anyways, she’s [00:00:45] faced some profound personal challenges, from a sudden loss in her family to overcoming difficult [00:00:50] relationships, all while building a remarkable career. Importantly as well, [00:00:55] she’s gone through her own fertility journey, which I want to talk about today. We’re here to dive deeper into his story, exploring [00:01:00] resilience, passion and strength to where she is today. Welcome, Chinta.

Cinta Miller: Hi. Hi. [00:01:05] How’s it going, guys?

Rhona Eskander: Good, good. I’m so happy to have you. So Payman [00:01:10] always asks, like, how do you know these people? What are they about, etc.. So I’ll give a little summary. Chinta and I met at [00:01:15] a birthday party from somebody who was on Love Island. That’s friends with Chinta. And she’s friends [00:01:20] with me too. And it was like love at first sight. I was like, this girl’s energy is amazing. She’s [00:01:25] infectious and she’s wonderful. And then the more I got to know you, I recognised that you were really this beacon [00:01:30] of strength and resilience from the things that have happened to you. So I like to start a little [00:01:35] bit from the beginning. But before I do, do you want to just tell everyone about I know you do your makeup artist [00:01:40] as your kind of career, but what else do you do?

Cinta Miller: Um, so my [00:01:45] career has been, um, it’s such a multifaceted role, [00:01:50] actually, because when you are a makeup artist, which I have been for 25 years, um, [00:01:55] and I predominantly work in music and TV and fashion and that kind of thing. When you [00:02:00] work with such high profile people, you’re given this level of responsibility and you, you build connections [00:02:05] very quickly and, um, a level of trust, and especially when you’re starting [00:02:10] with people from the bottom up or the ground up, I like to say ground up. Um, what [00:02:15] then happens is you then see the stepping stones of growth and [00:02:20] I’ve absorbed them, learnt them. And as the industry’s changed, like 20 [00:02:25] years ago when I started doing makeup, people weren’t posting stuff on. I didn’t even have a mobile phone 20 years ago [00:02:30] to assist people. I was going to phone boxes and harassing agencies for me to assist. [00:02:35] Um, nowadays it’s like, you know, it went from that to then working [00:02:40] and having stuff in print, in magazines, and now it’s like things aren’t very rarely, you know, a very rarely in print. Now it’s [00:02:45] on social media. Um, but still, the stepping stones of growth in my career [00:02:50] are the people’s careers have been something I’ve absorbed, and it’s something I’ve really enjoyed doing. [00:02:55] And after a lot of self-doubt, [00:03:00] um, and [00:03:05] imposter syndrome and also back [00:03:10] handed comments from other people, if I’m honest. Yeah. Um, learning to overcome all of that, [00:03:15] I was like, actually, my dream role is to be in music and in [00:03:20] music management and to learn all these skills that I’ve learned to grow an artist, a [00:03:25] music artist, but to be on the management front as well, and to have way more responsibility [00:03:30] and opinion and say, I always felt like I had opinion and sound stuff, and [00:03:35] it was kind of always overlooked because I was just the make up artist. So I’m like, actually, that’s [00:03:40] my passion, so let’s do it. And so I do that as well now.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing. So you’re actually in music [00:03:45] management now?

Cinta Miller: Yes, I’m in music management as well. Amazing.

Rhona Eskander: Before we jump to who she treats and everything like that, I know you want to jump to [00:03:50] those questions. I want to ask you a little bit about your childhood. Tell us a bit about where you grew up, what your family [00:03:55] are like.

Cinta Miller: So I grew up in a town in [00:04:00] Buckinghamshire called Aylesbury. I went to a school with the worst [00:04:05] reputation or horrendous reputation. Um, [00:04:10] state school. And I came out with all A’s. I [00:04:15] was a dork, but I was really popular at the same time. Um, I just think if [00:04:20] a child is bright, they’re going to find their way. And I [00:04:25] feel that the reason why I kind of had that fire in my belly is because I was the youngest of five as well. [00:04:30] Um, my family are Italian. My mum was a single mum, [00:04:35] um, until she remarried when I was six years old. Um, with five children. [00:04:40]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Cinta Miller: My mum was a single mum with five children. My dad actually got killed in an accident one [00:04:45] month after I was born, so I was born on the 12th of March. My dad died on the [00:04:50] 12th of April. Um, so I didn’t grow up knowing my dad at all. Although [00:04:55] I have a very good relationship with my dad’s family in Italy. My stepdad, I [00:05:00] would never say, this is my stepdad. He’s he’s my dad. He’s an amazing person. But up until the age of six [00:05:05] years old, it. My mum was a single mum and I very much remember those days. I remember [00:05:10] my sisters babysitting for me and my brothers babysitting for me. I remember my. I remember my brothers [00:05:15] being really strict with me as a kid and saying, you know, you’ve got to do good at school. You’ve got to. [00:05:20] I felt like I had more people at home to impress. So even though I loved being [00:05:25] popular at school, it was also very important to me to be popular at home [00:05:30] and made my life easier because my mum was very strict. We had a great [00:05:35] relationship with my mum, was very, very strict and I feel that that’s she had no other [00:05:40] way really. She was a mum of five children living in a [00:05:45] council house on a minimum wage. Yeah. Very proud. [00:05:50] She had to be strict to kind of do her best. Um, [00:05:55] so I did what I felt like I had to do to do my best as well. Um, did [00:06:00] very well at school. I still have a really good friendship with some of my teachers from school. Yeah. Um, [00:06:05] but, yeah, that was it.

Rhona Eskander: Did you go on to do GCSEs and A-levels?

Cinta Miller: Um, I [00:06:10] got all A’s in my GCSEs, a couple of A’s stars thrown in there, very creative courses. [00:06:15] I got the a stars for like drama, art. I was always very creative. I was one of those kids that because [00:06:20] my mum was strict, I was always in my bedroom at like 7 p.m. and so I used [00:06:25] to make my own magazines, write my own articles, cut things out of magazines, make my own fashion magazine. [00:06:30] Um, you know, write some words out. And [00:06:35] I was always thinking, oh, this is what I want to do when I’m older. I want to do some sort of makeup [00:06:40] or editing or be in fashion. And if I look at my career now, I’ve pretty much ticked [00:06:45] the boxes. I have done all of them. I’ve worked in fashion, I’ve worked in music, I’ve presented on TV [00:06:50] shows. I’ve done a bit of everything, so it kind of was definitely born there [00:06:55] for sure. Um, but yeah, [00:07:00] from and then from there I went on to, I did go to fashion college. I went to London College [00:07:05] of Fashion. Um, and from there [00:07:10] went to go on to do a degree at Saint Martins. And it was because [00:07:15] whilst I was at fashion college, I did a little bit of makeup. I did a tiny [00:07:20] makeup course and I was like, actually, I always thought makeup was something a beautician did, and then didn’t realise [00:07:25] that a beautician and a makeup artist were two different jobs. And then from there was just like [00:07:30] calling up people, messaging people to assist them, started assisting and was like, actually, [00:07:35] I could go to uni and get a job on a makeup counter at somewhere like Mac, [00:07:40] instead of getting a job at a bar or being a stripper.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I love that.

Cinta Miller: Basically, that [00:07:45] was the truth. And then I just didn’t end up going to uni. I ended up being a makeup artist, [00:07:50] going to work for Toni and Guy as a makeup artist, and then ended up learning hair. And [00:07:55] then the rest is history.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I love that. How did your mum, as a strict Italian [00:08:00] mother, cope with that?

Cinta Miller: Do you know what? One thing about my mum [00:08:05] is that my mum, as radical as she was being [00:08:10] strict, she gave the best advice. And the number one thing that she always [00:08:15] said to me was, I know it’s going to sound mental. She used to go, who cares if [00:08:20] you’re being the best version of yourself? Who cares who gives a shit? If I go to my mum [00:08:25] about a problem? I go, mum. She’d go, who gives a shit? [00:08:30] And I’d be like, you’re right. Who does give a shit? Um, and I remember saying to my mum, I don’t, I [00:08:35] don’t think I’m going to do this. I’m gonna be a hairdresser and a makeup artist. [00:08:40] And my mum was like, ah, who gives a shit about a degree? If you’re gonna go and be a hairdresser, just make sure [00:08:45] I don’t catch you down the high street Mhm. Where we live. We’re in a hairdresser. Go and be the [00:08:50] best hairdresser you can possibly be. I was like cool. And that’s what I did. My mom was just like, just go [00:08:55] and be the best version of what you can be.

Rhona Eskander: And so [00:09:00] I know as well. So did your siblings also follow suit? Did your siblings also end up doing really well? [00:09:05]

Cinta Miller: So I’m the youngest of five. My brothers and sisters are all [00:09:10] very different. You couldn’t have five more different siblings. [00:09:15] Unfortunately, my eldest sibling passed away. She [00:09:20] my, we’ve lost my mum now and I will get to that. But not long after my mum passed. [00:09:25] My sister passed quite soon after. Um, but my [00:09:30] next eldest sister, early on in her career, [00:09:35] she was a massive inspiration to me because she was she was 12 years older than me. [00:09:40] She was living in London. She was a dancer. She was, you know, I’d turn on TV, she was on top of the pops, and [00:09:45] there were shows like The Word, and she’d be on that as a dancer and I’d be like, wow, my sister’s amazing, and all my [00:09:50] friends are like, your sister was on TV. And I’d be like, yeah, I know my sister was on TV when she was like 15 on this, like [00:09:55] big dance competition, um, on the BBC. And from then she was kind of [00:10:00] like a little like local celebrity and then went on to be like a dancer and then worked at a film [00:10:05] production company, and then actually got me a summer job when I was 14 at this film production company. And [00:10:10] yeah, so I owe a lot to her. But now, you know, she moved back [00:10:15] home. She’s got a little boy, she retrained. She’s um, she retrained in, um, [00:10:20] counselling and social working. And now she is, um, she works with kids with [00:10:25] special needs and naughty kids in, in the school we went to, in the school that I went to, my sister works [00:10:30] there. So she’s there. My brother was I had one I’ve [00:10:35] got two brothers, but one brother, um, was a builder. Met [00:10:40] a girl when he was on holiday in Australia. Muslim girl changed religion [00:10:45] and is now an imam in the mosque.

Rhona Eskander: Wow.

Cinta Miller: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What a story. [00:10:50]

Cinta Miller: I know that. And then my other brother is just [00:10:55] the brother that is just chilled, calm. Doesn’t [00:11:00] want anything. Doesn’t need to do anything. He’s happy in his own little skin. Doesn’t [00:11:05] really like going out. Just really likes being home, watching TV, having three meals a day. Making [00:11:10] sure that I’m okay. Checks in with me. Checks in with my husband. My husband’s his best [00:11:15] mate. He loves him.

Payman Langroudi: You know, they say. They say that’s it. They say billionaires tend [00:11:20] to be fourth and fifth kids. Because what ends up happening is [00:11:25] what ends up happening is the first kid they I don’t know. She says something clever [00:11:30] and the parents say, you’re you’re the clever one. Then the second kid, the clever, is taken now. Yeah. The [00:11:35] second kid comes along, kicks the ball, and they say, oh, you’re the sporty one. Third kid says something funny. Oh, you’re the [00:11:40] funny one. And by the time you get to the fourth and fifth, If all that normal stuff’s been taken. [00:11:45] And so you’ve got to kind of invent something. You’ve got to find a way. It’s not going.

Cinta Miller: To be the rich one.

Payman Langroudi: Shining, [00:11:50] and they’re going to be the rich one. Not not necessarily, but billionaires end up thinking outside of [00:11:55] the box.

Cinta Miller: The entrepreneur. Yeah, yeah, that’s definitely me.

Payman Langroudi: So does that resonate?

Cinta Miller: Definitely me. And [00:12:00] funny you should say that. Like, every single time she’s going to kill me for saying this. Or she might love it, actually. [00:12:05] Um, every single time I speak to my sister Mel, she’s [00:12:10] always like, I’ve got a business idea for you. And she’ll tell me the idea. And I know because [00:12:15] she’s she always wants to do different things. She’ll tell me the idea. Not necessarily. [00:12:20] And I think not necessarily just because it’s she. She [00:12:25] sounds the idea out because she knows. I’ll tell her straight whether it’s going to be right or wrong, [00:12:30] or whether it could be successful or not. And she’ll know that. [00:12:35] I’ll play devil’s advocate and I’ll play devil’s advocate because I’ve got her back. So like she said [00:12:40] to me the other day, oh, I’ve got a business proposition for you. What about if we do this, this and this? Well, I’ll tell you what. That’s not going to work, because I already [00:12:45] do it here, and I already do it there. And you need to think that I’ve already got this network of people, [00:12:50] and you’d need to build that network of people for yourself. But how about this? Um. [00:12:55] And I do like applying myself to different job roles, [00:13:00] and I don’t because I’m successful at other roles. If [00:13:05] I fail at others, I’ve got the safety net of the things that are working.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. I mean.

Cinta Miller: I can take [00:13:10] more of a risk.

Rhona Eskander: I think the ad thing. Right. As in, like I told you, I have to multitask [00:13:15] and do like 20 things at once. I mean, my, my, um, members of staff joke [00:13:20] because they say that Rona abandons a sentence halfway. I mean, I do that to Laura as well. Who does [00:13:25] like the enlightened abandon a sentence halfway because I’m bored of that sentence, basically. And then [00:13:30] people are left guessing, you know? But it’s the thing is, like, we get to actually today, my husband was [00:13:35] making fun of me because I had like an affirmations playlist playing on Spotify. And he [00:13:40] goes, have you sped it up? And I was like, oh yeah, I did that because, like, it was too slow to get out what [00:13:45] the person needed to get out.

Payman Langroudi: And I got some affirmations. Playlist. Um, so you’re beautiful. [00:13:50] You’re so. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So basically I’ve changed my morning routine. And I think that [00:13:55] that has really helped my mental health. Um, so what I do is the first thing that [00:14:00] I do when I get up is I take 20 breaths, um, like, you know, out, um, [00:14:05] in through the mouth, out through the nose, that kind of thing. And I don’t look at my phone. Right. So my phone’s in the other room. [00:14:10] Then I go into the bathroom and do, like, all my skin care, etc., and [00:14:15] I’ll have an affirmations playlist. So it depends on what I’m feeling. But it was like, you are [00:14:20] strong, you are beautiful, you are healthy, blah blah blah and it plays on a loop. I think it has [00:14:25] an effect on your neuroplasticity because the thing is, is I’ve been doing it for like a month or two now. Obviously, I think, [00:14:30] you know, imagine like that in the background whilst you’re doing stuff instead of like, you are fat, you [00:14:35] are ugly, you are worthless. Like surely that’s going to have an effect on your brain. And [00:14:40] then I’ll journal. Then I’ll like take my. Does that.

Payman Langroudi: Mean, does that you write what you did.

Rhona Eskander: Yesterday? No [00:14:45] not yesterday I write what has what’s coming up for me on my mind. And it’s like a stream of consciousness. [00:14:50] It’s not even something that’s super curated. Yeah. And then I get ready [00:14:55] and by the time I leave the house, from the moment I’ve woken up, I haven’t looked at my [00:15:00] phone for 40 minutes to an hour from the moment that I’ve woken up. And now I just look at my phone as I’m leaving the house [00:15:05] and it’s changed the game for me.

Cinta Miller: See, it’s funny you should say that because not [00:15:10] that I can’t do that. I can, but.

Rhona Eskander: I used to [00:15:15] think, I.

Cinta Miller: Can’t, I don’t have I genuinely from the moment I get up, [00:15:20] I feel like I don’t really have the freedom to do all of those things. [00:15:25] So I used to.

Rhona Eskander: Think that why.

Payman Langroudi: Why, why.

Rhona Eskander: I just get up earlier.

Payman Langroudi: Now. Have you got.

Cinta Miller: Kids? Right. So but no, [00:15:30] no kids. So the thing is. Yeah. So now what? I’ve started doing very [00:15:35] similar to you in some ways the trick is you have to get up earlier. [00:15:40] The only way you are not going to get intervened, [00:15:45] what I call it is what I call it is railroaded. I [00:15:50] always feel like sometimes I’m doing stuff and somebody comes in and railroads me in the middle of doing something, and [00:15:55] it’s like their situation is more important and you carry on and then this [00:16:00] person’s more like, my kid is sick or this is happening or that’s happening or, oh, I need you to do this, or can you [00:16:05] proofread this for you and you? And actually that’s ego because you feel like, oh, these people need me. So you kind of end up [00:16:10] doing that. But what you do is do a massive disservice to yourself. You need to do your own shit first. Are you [00:16:15] a people pleaser? Yes, massively. And I’m trying not to be a people pleaser because I fucking hate being [00:16:20] a people pleaser. I love people some.

Rhona Eskander: Has a massive negative effect on your immune [00:16:25] system.

Cinta Miller: I love, I love people, and I really, I really champion people, and [00:16:30] I really want people to do well. And I think there’s enough good energy, enough work, Enough [00:16:35] everything for everybody in this world, right? But [00:16:40] some I’ve noticed. I’ve realised that giving too much of myself [00:16:45] at the wrong time has been very detrimental to me. So I don’t know if you even saw I had [00:16:50] this huge operation about 6 or 7 weeks ago, and after this operation [00:16:55] I had to take some time off and I was like, actually, I’m going to start this thing [00:17:00] that’s called, I started this thing I’ve been doing on Instagram, and I haven’t even made [00:17:05] myself go on Instagram every day because I’m like, it’s okay, I don’t have to post this on Instagram [00:17:10] every day. But I did put it on there to give myself some level of accountability as I’m doing this thing called 365 [00:17:15] and 365 means for 365 days, I have to take one hour [00:17:20] a day. That is purely for me. And if it means that hour is off my phone for [00:17:25] an hour and not on social media going, it’s my 365 and I’m off my phone, then I’m not going to post it because [00:17:30] some people have messaged me going, well, we hope you haven’t posted anything for a few days. I’m like, yeah, because I’m having a digital detox [00:17:35] and that’s what I need to feel better. But, um, going [00:17:40] back to what you were saying, the trick is definitely you get up early in the morning, and I’ve.

Rhona Eskander: Been your [00:17:45] morning. I really think that, you know, um, I’m reading a book called Smarter by Emily [00:17:50] Austin. She sent me the book, and she has an incredibly successful PR agency, [00:17:55] and the book gives a smarter way to, um, [00:18:00] become successful. And it really resonates, especially for women, because she said, for [00:18:05] so many years, you know, you read books about like, just sleep for five hours or do as [00:18:10] much as you can or ram in. And she actually completely refutes all of that. And I [00:18:15] totally agree as well, because I used to be like, right, 5 a.m. club, like, you know, like exercise, [00:18:20] do this, do this, do 100 things before 9 a.m. and I’m like, no, it doesn’t work for my body. I was [00:18:25] unhappy, unhealthy and burnt out, which is pretty much what happens to a lot of women. But she says owning your morning, [00:18:30] whatever that looks like to you personally is that. And that doesn’t mean doing [00:18:35] like a crazy exercise class or doing, but it is certain little things. And [00:18:40] I think those habits for me, I will exercise every morning, but it doesn’t need to be something [00:18:45] crazy. So that helps me. For some people it doesn’t, but it helps me.

Cinta Miller: So what I’ve been doing [00:18:50] is either before I go to bed at night or when I get get up in the morning, [00:18:55] one of two things, or I do them both is I’ve been just literally going on YouTube, putting [00:19:00] in stoic meditations. Yeah. And doing, um, really listening [00:19:05] to stoicism. I don’t know if you know anything about that. So I’ve really been listening to stoicism and [00:19:10] just mantras of like and actually thinking about it now. It really [00:19:15] resonates with my mum because it’s like nothing matters. Don’t worry. It’s just like, don’t sweat the small stuff [00:19:20] and be positive about yourself and that affirmations and have that moment of calm [00:19:25] and I sometimes I like listening to it before I go to bed at night, because it will resonate [00:19:30] with things that has happened during the day, especially the Liam and I will listen to it together at night before [00:19:35] we go to bed and we’re both like, oh, actually, you know, we’re just moaning about that in the car. And actually, this is how we should approach it. [00:19:40] You know, it was just moaning about this.

Cinta Miller: And, you know, this has just taken me aback. And I feel like I get the answers. [00:19:45] I just put one on at random. I leave it to the fate, I leave it to the universe, and [00:19:50] I do that. And then in the morning I will get up early. I’ll make a herbal tea. [00:19:55] I’ll sit on my sit on my sofa, put a blanket around me, and then I’ll listen to a bit of [00:20:00] a meditation, a stoic meditation, and do breathwork. Um, and [00:20:05] it would just be for ten minutes and then I will go for a walk. [00:20:10] I live in like a beautiful little village, and it will consist of walking ten [00:20:15] times around the block or once around the block, but I will just get some steps in to get my body moving [00:20:20] and then I’ll go home, have a shower, get ready, and then plan my day. And that [00:20:25] is what I’ve been doing since I’ve had my operation. And I feel so much better. My [00:20:30] I feel like I feel like the inflammation in my body is, like, gone [00:20:35] down. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: You’ve mentioned your mom a few times. Um, tell us a little bit about your [00:20:40] mom and what happened. And, you know, you are this beacon of positivity and happiness, and obviously, your story [00:20:45] touched me, so.

Cinta Miller: So my mom, my mom was an incredible woman. She was like, as I said, [00:20:50] strict woman, tough woman. But I can categorically tell you now, [00:20:55] no one was funnier than my mum. My mum was pure jokes and that’s what I miss the most. [00:21:00] She was really funny. Um, but I literally spoke to her [00:21:05] one morning. I was going to look at a house and. And I just [00:21:10] for some reason, at one point in my life, I was like, I want to live near the beach. So I decided to go and look [00:21:15] at houses on the coast. And I was like, yeah, I’m going today. And she was like, I’ll make sure there’s a balcony [00:21:20] for me, you know, make sure there’s a room for me. I want a balcony with a sea view. And I was like, yeah, I’ll let you know. And [00:21:25] I walked into this house and it was, it wasn’t for me. And I was like, oh, my mom would hate this. And [00:21:30] as I walked out, I had a missed call from my brother and [00:21:35] my and then a message. And the moment my brother left me a message, I knew something had happened because my brother never leaves [00:21:40] me a message. He’d never phoned me during the day and he’d never leave me a message. It was always a text [00:21:45] and I was like, something’s wrong. And I called my. My brother left me a message and [00:21:50] was like, you need to come home.

Cinta Miller: And I just I knew instantly. And basically my mom had a pulmonary pulmonary [00:21:55] embolism, which basically a blood clot. And the thing was, she had [00:22:00] complained about this pain in her leg and foot about a month before, [00:22:05] and it was really bad. She was like, I’ve never felt pain like it. And we went to the doctors and the doctor was like, [00:22:10] you know, you’ve got arthritis in your knees. It’s probably that you’ve got to lose a bit of weight. And she was like, [00:22:15] yeah, but I’m trying. But this pain is different. And they were like, we’ll send you to the hospital. I went to the hospital. Oh, [00:22:20] we haven’t got the right iodine to put through to give you a scan. Come back tomorrow. Went back the next day. Oh, [00:22:25] we can’t find a vein to put the iodine in. Come back the next day. By the time my mum actually had the scan, [00:22:30] they did the scan on her leg and I haven’t got a blood clot. You’re fine. It’s your arthritis. And then three days later, [00:22:35] my mum was having breakfast with my dad, and my dad basically said that [00:22:40] he’d made her like egg and soldiers, which was very [00:22:45] rare because my mum cooks. Morning, noon and night. So my dad cooked my mum breakfast was really rare [00:22:50] and my mum had said to him that was really nice, at least I know if I die you can cook. [00:22:55]

Cinta Miller: And he and he went behave and my mum put the [00:23:00] like the plate down, went to go into the bathroom and went Paul. And then [00:23:05] my Paul had this huge bang and my mum had just hit the deck and [00:23:10] died. That was it. She was gone and my stepdad was just [00:23:15] there, didn’t know what to do, called my brother. My brother came, air ambulance came, landed [00:23:20] outside the house and my mum was gone. And by the time I got [00:23:25] there, my mum, it was awful. Like, I remember being by the coast and having [00:23:30] to drive all the way back home and it was like rush hour traffic and it was just awful. [00:23:35] And I got there and my mum was was still there and [00:23:40] I beat myself up quite a lot because actually the last time I physically [00:23:45] saw her and spent time with her was Boxing Day. She died at the beginning [00:23:50] of February was Boxing Day and Boxing Day. I left to go skiing with my friends and [00:23:55] my mum was like, why do you want to go skiing for? And I was like, I don’t know, something’s doing it. It’s a laugh. And she was like, [00:24:00] all right. And actually, I wish I’d just stayed and spent more time with my family at Christmas. [00:24:05] Um, but I guess it was just her [00:24:10] time.

Rhona Eskander: So, I mean, I know we’ve had. How did that affect you at that time [00:24:15] in your life? Kind of like emotionally and mentally.

Cinta Miller: At that time, [00:24:20] I went into fight or flight 100% I can. I [00:24:25] can categorically tell you, minus a handful of my friends. [00:24:30] No one really asked me how I was, how I was feeling because I had at [00:24:35] that point of my relationship, I had such a close relationship with my mum. There was like a few [00:24:40] family things that were going on, and as the youngest, I [00:24:45] kind of got burdened with this huge responsibility that I feel like a lot of people [00:24:50] in my family felt like I’d asked for, and I definitely didn’t ask for it. I was like, I’m [00:24:55] the youngest. I’ve had the least time with mum. Out of all of you guys, you’ve all been on this planet longer. [00:25:00] I feel too young to have lost my mum. I was [00:25:05] only 30, 31. I feel too young to be without my mum [00:25:10] and I don’t have children. I’m not married [00:25:15] and I just felt like I was going to do a lot of the things, my life, things [00:25:20] on my own, even though I had my family, but I wasn’t. I really didn’t have my biological dad. [00:25:25]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Cinta Miller: So I kind of then got burdened with this responsibility, [00:25:30] this family responsibility. And I felt like I had to step [00:25:35] up to what my mom wanted me to do. And it was like organising a funeral, organising the will, doing this, doing [00:25:40] that. And it was a lot of pressure and I didn’t really felt. I didn’t really [00:25:45] feel that. I didn’t feel looked after. [00:25:50] I felt like my safety net or this safety blanket that we all have from [00:25:55] our parents just got pulled from underneath my feet, and I felt like I was just I’d been thrown out of a plane, [00:26:00] basically. I felt like I was like, flapping my arms, trying to stay up in the air and nobody [00:26:05] could see me flapping my arms. And it was from that point there that I developed [00:26:10] anxiety. I’d never had anxiety before, but from that point then I definitely developed anxiety. [00:26:15] Um, and it wasn’t until a year [00:26:20] later when I went through another bad experience. My sister, then my eldest [00:26:25] sister, then got cancer. I then met a guy, went through an awful relationship, [00:26:30] and he put me through the mill and the stress levels and my my adrenal fatigue, the stress levels, [00:26:35] the mitochondria depletion just affected me so badly, [00:26:40] and I was so depleted that I actually remember being on my bedroom floor and my friend [00:26:45] coming in and going, like, what are you doing? And I’d been there for three days. And she was like, I’ve been trying to call [00:26:50] you. Like what? And she just burst into tears and she was like, look, we need [00:26:55] to talk. Like, what are you doing? And I was like, I, I’m really upset. And she was like, [00:27:00] oh my God. And I was like, I’m really upset that I’ve woken up. Like, I was gutted that I’d woken up. [00:27:05] I just wanted to die. I was just like, there’s nothing.

Rhona Eskander: But that’s grief. And I think that grief is a really important [00:27:10] part. Like, I think, I mean, have you ever had any grief in your life? Sure [00:27:15] you have. Yeah. I think that grief is something that we’re, I don’t know, like, I [00:27:20] think grief is something that’s so important, but as some human beings are not great at it. [00:27:25] You know, I’ve seen like like people experience loss and they it’s almost like they just go on this [00:27:30] autopilot. Right. Got to get up and go. Yeah. Especially if they have to take on that role of [00:27:35] like, like you said, the will the the actual like logistics of everything. But [00:27:40] I think that if we don’t allow grief to go through our body, it will catch [00:27:45] up with you at some point. We have got to allow that. Like grief is a healthy emotion. [00:27:50] And I remember once saying to my therapist, I’ve grieved things in a different way. Like, [00:27:55] sure, I’ve not experienced death, you know, touch wood. You know, my grandparents [00:28:00] died, but I think that was there was more acceptance with that. I wasn’t particularly [00:28:05] close to them. Um, it happened when they were pretty old, you know, it seemed like a natural [00:28:10] sort of process of life. But more recently, I had really [00:28:15] discovered what grief meant, losing relationships and [00:28:20] lovers and things like that. And I think that those things also [00:28:25] have an element of grief in it. And I said to my therapist, I was like, I feel like I want [00:28:30] to die. Why do I feel like I want to die? And she goes, that’s grief. Yeah. And then I said, so what [00:28:35] do I do? And she goes, the only way out is through. The only way out is through. [00:28:40] And that stuck by me. So now when I feel like I just want to cry all day because [00:28:45] someone has left my life, and as I said, it almost does [00:28:50] feel like death when someone leaves your life and you never see them again, right? She just said, just go [00:28:55] right through it. Yeah.

Cinta Miller: And it’s so it’s so, so true. At that point, [00:29:00] I put such emphasis. I’d been [00:29:05] in this relationship that had come to an end. I’m not going to go into what the ins and outs of it because he doesn’t [00:29:10] deserve the airtime. But, um, I really felt like I was grieving that relationship, [00:29:15] but I wasn’t I was grieving my mum because actually what I’d done is I’d replaced the safety net with [00:29:20] somebody that just wasn’t reliable. And when that person went, I was then really, really [00:29:25] faced with the grief. Um, and in the end, I [00:29:30] talk about people pleasing. Actually, this is where I think people pleasing did get me through [00:29:35] and did work in my favour, because there was a moment where things were [00:29:40] so bad that my friend’s husband called me and he was like, [00:29:45] look, my friend obviously said to her husband, I’m really worried about her. And he [00:29:50] he called me. He went, look, I’ve called a clinic. I’ve called a clinic, a rehab clinic for you. [00:29:55] You’ve got a really bad day. I think. We think you’ve got really bad depression. I’m going to pay for [00:30:00] you to go. And I was like, really? He was like, yeah, yeah, I’m going to pay for you to go. [00:30:05] He goes, whether it’s a week, four weeks, I’m paying for it. And I remember [00:30:10] thinking, oh my God, it’s so expensive. And I sat there and thought to myself, oh my God, what if I go [00:30:15] and I don’t get better? And then I then I went 80 grand.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. I was [00:30:20] like.

Cinta Miller: I can’t have that level of responsibility or burden on my shoulders. I thought the only way through this is [00:30:25] for me to pull my socks up. So I actually opened my laptop and [00:30:30] thought, right, where can I go on my own? Where I’m going to feel safe and where I’m going [00:30:35] to grow? And I basically booked a muay Thai bootcamp [00:30:40] in Thailand and I booked it. I went for a month on my own, and for the first [00:30:45] two weeks it was horrendous. I hated every day of it. I cried every day. I was in bed at like 7:00 every night [00:30:50] crying. And then one day I did this hike. [00:30:55] And this hike was the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my life. It was like uphill incline for four hours and [00:31:00] I was like, yeah, I hike. I’ve done Runyon Canyon in L.A., I’m a I’m a, you know, a seasoned [00:31:05] hiker was I.

Rhona Eskander: Got to this.

Cinta Miller: Hike, was doing it. And then slowly, slowly, I got to the [00:31:10] back. And then I was like miles behind everybody else. And when I got to the top, everyone was [00:31:15] waiting for me and everyone applauded. And I was just like, all I did was just cry. And I sat on these [00:31:20] steps at this huge Buddha and was crying. And I looked up and all I could see was these beautiful [00:31:25] islands with like, fog. And I just got a hit with [00:31:30] like, this is going to sound really corny, but I got hit with this beauty of [00:31:35] the universe, and what it made me feel was extremely lucky for, [00:31:40] oh my God, I’m really lucky to be here. Yeah, I’m lucky that I can afford to be here. I’m [00:31:45] lucky that I can afford to take a month off work. I’m lucky that I’m breathing. I’m lucky that I’ve met these amazing people. [00:31:50] That I’ve waited two hours for me. What have I got? What have I got to be upset about? And why am [00:31:55] I crying over a loser? And actually, what I’m crying about really is my mum. [00:32:00] And that’s when I kind of went back home, met [00:32:05] somebody instantly, who I’m now married to. Better frame of mind. Went [00:32:10] to see my sister who was really sick, built bridges with my sister, and we started to get our family [00:32:15] trajectory back on track. I needed to build myself [00:32:20] back first and become my own safety net. I suppose.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, losing both parents [00:32:25] is a funny thing. I mean, I haven’t lost either parent, but.

Rhona Eskander: How [00:32:30] old are they?

Payman Langroudi: 88 and 78. Oh.

Rhona Eskander: So [00:32:35] young. They had you then?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah. You’re saying that.

Cinta Miller: Like [00:32:40] he’s 75?

Rhona Eskander: I’m literally. I’m winding him up. I’m winding him.

Payman Langroudi: Up. But no, but several of my that’s [00:32:45] like.

Rhona Eskander: That’s actually my dad’s 80 and my mom’s 70. So that’s still.

Payman Langroudi: Similar. [00:32:50] Um, the I’ve got loads of friends who’ve lost both parents. And [00:32:55] that moment of losing your second parent. I’ve spoken to all of them about it. [00:33:00] And it’s this they they say stuff like, suddenly the ground feels [00:33:05] like it’s shaking.

Rhona Eskander: That’s crazy.

Cinta Miller: It’s exactly how it feels.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And and it’s [00:33:10] a funny thing because, you know, but you could be 50 years old and and that could happen to you. [00:33:15] And, you know, your parents, by the time you get to my age, I’m looking after my parents more than they’re [00:33:20] looking after me. But there is there’s something about it that [00:33:25] that shakes you up when you haven’t got anyone to go to.

Cinta Miller: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: In [00:33:30] a way.

Rhona Eskander: Do you think that. I know this is a bit of a weird question, but do you think no matter what age [00:33:35] you lose your parents, you’re an orphan? Do you know what I mean?

Cinta Miller: I cannot believe you just said that. [00:33:40] Do you know how many times, like in [00:33:45] my family we’ve said we’re orphans? Because we are. We are actually orphans. [00:33:50] And although I kind of think, yeah, we’re orphans, but we’re kind of not because we’ve got [00:33:55] family. I see orphans as something that don’t have anybody. But we’ve lost our parents [00:34:00] for sure. We say that all the time.

Rhona Eskander: But do you think, like, you know, like so pay. God forbid. Obviously, [00:34:05] if you lost your parents soon because, as you said, they kind of lived their [00:34:10] life and their older. Do you think you’d feel like an orphan or not?

Payman Langroudi: To the extent that you know, your [00:34:15] your parents always see you as their little kid? Mhm. You know, do you think.

Rhona Eskander: They still do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah for [00:34:20] sure.

Rhona Eskander: Little pay.

Payman Langroudi: No they really do. They really do. And they give you advice that they used to give you when you’re [00:34:25] like 12. Like be careful on whatever. And to that same extent you always think of them [00:34:30] as your parent, you know like. Yeah. So and there’s also sort of the stories that are [00:34:35] lost and like the reason why I’m trying to spend as much time with my parents as possible is because [00:34:40] I know I will regret it when they’re gone and, and they’re still telling me things I never knew, you [00:34:45] know? Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I think the loss of parents is something that, again, is quite stigmatised, [00:34:50] that people don’t really talk about it. The holistic psychologist, she’s my favourite. Nicole Pereira [00:34:55] I don’t know if you follow her, but she’s brilliant. And she says, you know, it’s something that people don’t like to [00:35:00] talk about because it’s almost like they just don’t ever want to have to face it.

Payman Langroudi: People don’t like to talk about death in general. [00:35:05]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. No, you’re right, you’re probably right. But I think also particularly she talks [00:35:10] about, you know, you look at your parents, you know, if you’ve had the privilege of watching them age and [00:35:15] you suddenly look at them and go, they’re getting old, or you suddenly notice they can’t do stuff for themselves [00:35:20] anymore, she said. That’s quite difficult to come to terms with, and I would say that I have [00:35:25] to totally agree with that. Tell us a little bit if it’s okay and not too heavy about then [00:35:30] the loss of your sister. So you said that happened quite quickly afterwards. Was it linked?

Cinta Miller: So no, [00:35:35] my sister had cancer. My [00:35:40] sister literally just had cancer. She had bowel cancer and it was secondary on her liver [00:35:45] and then took over her whole body. And it was it came around quite quickly. Um, [00:35:50] and she, she literally passed a year, 18 [00:35:55] months later. Wow. So that kind of happened. But that was a really [00:36:00] peculiar situation because my sister, [00:36:05] She was the eldest, I was the youngest. And for a very long time of my life, [00:36:10] a big part of my life as a kid, she wasn’t. We weren’t close. [00:36:15] Then I feel like the age gap closes. When you’re a certain age. You’re [00:36:20] into certain things. You’re discovering things, you know. I then had, like a level of respect for [00:36:25] my sister and really looked up to her. You know, she had, you know, she bought houses and I was [00:36:30] on, you know, on my career path. And she was, like, really proud of me. [00:36:35] And then it kind of split again because of the whole [00:36:40] family politics. Um, and I feel bad for that. But that [00:36:45] was a situation where I really I [00:36:50] feel bad for it. But I did have to take time out for myself to be like, I [00:36:55] have to get myself back on track, because if I don’t, I’m going to maybe [00:37:00] end up going down another way of becoming quite poorly. And [00:37:05] I saw my sister let things affect her unnecessarily. [00:37:10] And I really believe, I don’t know if, you know, there’s going to be medical experts [00:37:15] out there and they’re like, you don’t know about how this works. No, I don’t, but what I can say [00:37:20] is that mentally, things affected my sister unnecessarily, [00:37:25] and she had a choice of whether she let that affect her or not. And she did. And [00:37:30] I think that it definitely contributed to how unwell she was.

Rhona Eskander: I mean, I think [00:37:35] we’ve had this conversation before on this podcast. I think it is impossible to separate [00:37:40] the mind and the body as much as people want to separate it. There are a few psychotherapists, [00:37:45] psychiatrists that recognise that they recognise cancer, autoimmune. [00:37:50] There is an element of like mental health associated to [00:37:55] that and I think it just makes sense. It’s the story. It just it just makes sense. It’s the [00:38:00] stored toxicity, the stored stress. Of course it’s going to affect you. But I think [00:38:05] what’s remarkable about you, you know, is that you have not let that [00:38:10] stored grief, you know, affect who you are and the decisions that you make, which is absolutely [00:38:15] incredible. However, as we know, I think it did quite rightly [00:38:20] also affect your fertility, you know, which we’ve talked about. So I’m [00:38:25] interested to kind of go into that. So tell me, tell us a little bit about your fertility [00:38:30] and what happened.

Cinta Miller: So basically at that time, I think [00:38:35] my adrenal, my adrenal fatigue was at an all [00:38:40] time high. Like I was so burnt out. And [00:38:45] for those of you that know, are kind of like medically about all your mitochondria and where it’s stored. But women store most [00:38:50] of their mitochondria in their ovaries purely because it’s there as a reserve for childbirth. [00:38:55] So that’s why you get so many women that are, you know, athletes that [00:39:00] are long distance runners that are constantly on the go with [00:39:05] a shortage of energy, they lose their periods because [00:39:10] actually the mitochondria that is in their fertility system and menstrual [00:39:15] cycle kind of gets depleted and all of that jazz. So I’m not a medical expert, but I know enough [00:39:20] about it. Um, but at that time I was [00:39:25] so stressed. I was carrying so much grief, emotion, hurt, pain, [00:39:30] responsibility. Every superlative that describes [00:39:35] an emotion I had, I can categorically tell you I had to the point. [00:39:40] I even had therapy with a CBT therapist and she was like trying to give me therapy [00:39:45] and I went to her. Can I just ask you something? Have you lost your mum? And she went, um, no. And I [00:39:50] went, you’re not for me. Yeah. And I just left. Yeah. I was like, you cannot advise somebody [00:39:55] unless you actually physically know, walk the walk. And actually I [00:40:00] know people go, cognitive behavioural therapy is amazing and listen, it has its place. But [00:40:05] when people are grieving, let me tell you. Do you know what they need? They need somebody to put their arm around them and go, [00:40:10] you’re going to be okay. Yeah, you are going to be okay. I’m here for you. [00:40:15] They need love, support, comfort and emotion. They don’t need words. [00:40:20] They don’t need.

Rhona Eskander: Work.

Cinta Miller: Work. They don’t need the not to say [00:40:25] you don’t need therapy, but when somebody is grieving, just put your arms around them [00:40:30] and give them some love. You cannot honestly, you cannot [00:40:35] even begin to know how powerful that is for somebody. So [00:40:40] in that moment, I was like, I need to leave. But as I said, I had.

Payman Langroudi: But then you’re [00:40:45] a hugger.

Cinta Miller: Yeah, I’m a hugger. You are?

Payman Langroudi: It’s obvious. Yeah, I’m a hugger. Yeah, [00:40:50] but some people aren’t.

Cinta Miller: Yeah, I think that’s got to do with that.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe you need hugs in [00:40:55] that moment. I mean, I hug some people, it’s like hugging a tree. Like you just don’t want to be hugged, [00:41:00] you know? I feel I.

Cinta Miller: Think it’s a very European, Mediterranean [00:41:05] thing.

Rhona Eskander: I think also the thing is, is like hugging has literally been shown to release endorphins, serotonin, happiness. [00:41:10] I think the people that don’t enjoy being hugging or being touched, I think that’s maybe I’m making a massive [00:41:15] generalisation is some kind of like repression inside them?

Payman Langroudi: Maybe.

Rhona Eskander: Or [00:41:20] maybe trauma. Maybe trauma. Like people that also have may have been abused don’t want to be touched necessarily.

Payman Langroudi: Like but [00:41:25] but just some people’s makeup is is that way. And some people.

Rhona Eskander: You know I think you’re oversimplifying [00:41:30] it.

Payman Langroudi: Well maybe but but I remember in Covid, the thing I hated the most was not hugging [00:41:35] people, you know, like when you couldn’t get near people. Yeah. Yeah. It was it was the thing that got to me. I [00:41:40] was almost feeling down about it, you know, like culturally.

Rhona Eskander: Like Chintoo said, like for some cultures, [00:41:45] it’s more acceptable than others.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but my own brother doesn’t hug, you know what I mean? Like, he was brought up in [00:41:50] the same house you.

Rhona Eskander: Do to him.

Payman Langroudi: I think you.

Cinta Miller: Should say that. I actually saw an Instagram [00:41:55] post the other day saying, let’s normalise my friend.

Rhona Eskander: I saw the holistic psychologist. Let’s normalise children [00:42:00] that don’t want to be touched. Or is that the one?

Cinta Miller: Let’s normalise children not having to hug people. [00:42:05]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I saw that. That’s the holistic psychologist. But I follow a lot of her work.

Cinta Miller: And I [00:42:10] was like, what is that about?

Rhona Eskander: No, I think she’s saying that like, you know, that we should listen to children’s [00:42:15] intuition is basically what she’s trying to say. Like, you know, when like people, it’s the same thing that it’s like [00:42:20] pretty girls smile, like, smile for the nice, nice smile for the nice person. So [00:42:25] it’s kind of like, don’t force children because children have pretty good intuition. And if they don’t feel like hugging people, they [00:42:30] shouldn’t be forced into it. That’s kind of like the premise of it. But but I want to continue like [00:42:35] on this.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry, sorry for interrupting.

Cinta Miller: So I had long story short, I’m [00:42:40] going to really abbreviate it down. But basically at [00:42:45] that absolute point of having all of these emotions, carrying all of these [00:42:50] emotions, I was at my thinnest as well. I was I looked at a picture the other day and I was like, [00:42:55] God, I look good. I look good. I look really good. I was at my thinnest and [00:43:00] I had my periods had stopped, and I remember going to the doctors and saying, you know, my periods have stopped. And [00:43:05] he basically said, look, you’ve lost a lot of weight very quickly. You’ve got to look at it like a bank account. Imagine you’re going to a cashpoint [00:43:10] and you’re you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Drawing out drawing.

Cinta Miller: Out money, but you’re not putting [00:43:15] anything in. And that bank account is empty, but you’re still you’re still trying to draw out and you’re going into your overdraft. [00:43:20] And I was like, right, okay. And then I put a little bit of weight back on periods [00:43:25] didn’t come back. And then I went back to the doctor again and he said, oh, do you know what? I think you’ve [00:43:30] got polycystic ovaries. Let’s do a test for polycystic ovaries. Did that. And he was like, [00:43:35] you haven’t got polycystic ovaries. I think you’ve got a problem with your thyroid. Did a test for that. And I was [00:43:40] like, can I just get a test for all of them? No, we can’t do that. In the end, I was like, [00:43:45] right. How old were you? I was 32. In the end, I went [00:43:50] to I found a hormone doctor, a fertility doctor, um, gynaecologist [00:43:55] weren’t paid. It was private, paid for him. And [00:44:00] I had a test. I had a group of tests done with him, and his [00:44:05] secretary sent me an email and was like, Mr. Reginald wants to do your test again. [00:44:10] He’d like to do your test again. So I did all my test again. And then he said [00:44:15] to me, he actually called me and he went, have you got a partner? And I said, because [00:44:20] you’ve got a partner, right? And I said, yeah, I’m, you know, I’m in a relationship.

Cinta Miller: And [00:44:25] he said, how serious is your relationship? I said, very serious. I think that’s the person I’m going to marry. And [00:44:30] he went, bring him with you when you come to your appointment. Like this guy, honestly, [00:44:35] I love I love him for doing this. And I went to my appointment and he went, [00:44:40] I wanted to do your results twice because sometimes you could just it’s bad timing. And if I get it twice [00:44:45] and it’s the same results and we’ve got to go with it, he said. But basically you’re, um, it’s [00:44:50] your malaria and cell count. He saw your malaria and cell count as that of [00:44:55] a 60 year old woman. And he said, and your hormone levels are [00:45:00] your. He was like going through all my hormones. And basically he said to me, where you’re at, you would get women [00:45:05] saying they’re in perimenopause or. He goes, you’re not there. You’re out of it. You’re through it. He goes, [00:45:10] you’re you’ve got you’ve got no eggs, you’ve got zero eggs, there’s no follicles. [00:45:15] There’s no there’s none of that. He goes, there’s none. And I went.

Rhona Eskander: So you [00:45:20] were 32 and you basically were diagnosed with menopause at 32. Yeah.

Cinta Miller: And he basically and the first question [00:45:25] I said was because I’m naive, I don’t I know nothing about this. Right. [00:45:30] I went, can I have IVF? And he went, no, [00:45:35] because I don’t know if you know how IVF works. You have to take your eggs. And so no you can’t. I [00:45:40] went, can I have children? And he went and I looked at Liam and [00:45:45] I went, you don’t have to stay with me. It’s the first thing I said to him. I went, you don’t have [00:45:50] to stay with me. And he went. Are you mad?

Payman Langroudi: He’s a people.

Cinta Miller: Pleaser. [00:45:55] He went. He looked at me and he went, are you crazy? He went, just adopt. It’s [00:46:00] okay. And he was crying. He went, well, just adopt. And I was just like, this is my [00:46:05] person. It was. It’s just my person.

Payman Langroudi: Did he want kids more than you?

Cinta Miller: Well, the funny thing was, [00:46:10] when I met Liam, at that point of meeting him, because of all the [00:46:15] shit I’d been through, I basically made this. I’d been watching [00:46:20] this guy. I’d been watching this guy on YouTube called Matthew Hussey. Know how to get the guy? [00:46:25] I love.

Rhona Eskander: Him.

Cinta Miller: And I make.

Rhona Eskander: A good podcast.

Cinta Miller: I was like, I’m going to adopt his [00:46:30] mantras, right? I’m going to be I’m going to get the guy. And [00:46:35] it was like the self-worth, the no games, the no nonsense setting your boundaries. And [00:46:40] when I met Liam, I was like, oh, I’m basically looking for my husband. If you don’t want [00:46:45] to get married, don’t waste my time. I’m also wanting to start a family. If you don’t want kids. Don’t waste my [00:46:50] time. And also, I want to be someone’s number one. I don’t want to be with somebody that’s already [00:46:55] got kids and be secondary to their children. I don’t want to be with somebody [00:47:00] that’s best friends with their ex-partner and secondary to them. I don’t want to be best friends with [00:47:05] somebody that lives with their parents, because you’re secondary to the parents as well. [00:47:10] I want to be somebody’s number one. I’m nobody’s number one. All my friends have kids. Their [00:47:15] kids are their number one. I want to be the first person that somebody saves in a burning fire. I’ve [00:47:20] got so many friends. I’m so loved. But I know that I’m not first in line for a lot of things, [00:47:25] and I need that. And he just went. I feel exactly the same. I’ve [00:47:30] never, ever felt number one to anybody. And I went, well, I went, if you go out with me, you will. And [00:47:35] after that date, I literally said to my friend, I’m going to marry this guy. I knew instantly, I [00:47:40] knew. First date love. That first day I said to my friend, I’m going to marry him. Second date [00:47:45] I said to him, we’re going to get married. Third day I was at a wedding and FaceTimed him and said, [00:47:50] this is a really nice wedding venue. We should get married here. And he was like, yeah, we should. Didn’t even, didn’t [00:47:55] even, you know, push back on it. But five years [00:48:00] later, we did get married. We didn’t rush into it, but part of that journey was me [00:48:05] saying I really wanted a family and he just went, not [00:48:10] a problem. We will adopt.

Rhona Eskander: So I mean, like, this is the thing.

Payman Langroudi: Did you adopt? [00:48:15]

Rhona Eskander: Well, before we go on to that. But I’m sure she’ll she’ll tell you about what’s kind of next. But [00:48:20] this is the thing that I find, like so remarkable about Chinta. Like she lost [00:48:25] her biological father, you know, when she was so young. She lost [00:48:30] her mother when she was only 30 years old. She lost her sister, you know, when [00:48:35] she was 31, 32. And then she gets told that she can’t have children [00:48:40] because she has menopause at 32 years old, yet she’s still [00:48:45] one of the most vibrant, positive, you know, people that has created like an incredible [00:48:50] career for herself. And, you know, I think it’s quite remarkable. You know, this is [00:48:55] not the average life of the kind of person, average person you meet. So I think, no, it’s [00:49:00] true. It’s really, really true. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: I worry about the, the kind of the people pleasing [00:49:05] side of that. Do you know what’s funny? Because because like, you know, maybe she’s projecting to you that [00:49:10] perfect happiness. It’s not.

Rhona Eskander: Perfect because.

Payman Langroudi: She’s perfect, but, you know, [00:49:15] happiness, like this thing you’re saying, having gone through all that, she’s this very positive person. Maybe that’s what you’re [00:49:20] seeing, but maybe behind the curtain, you know what I mean? And people.

Rhona Eskander: Pleasers. Right?

Payman Langroudi: People pleasers do that sometimes. [00:49:25] I have to be.

Cinta Miller: Honest, there are times behind closed doors and Liam would [00:49:30] be in agreement. My husband, where I have my lulls and I think everyone has that. You [00:49:35] have to have those lulls to have those highs. I think it’s impossible to be on a constant high. It’s true. [00:49:40] It’s impossible to be on a constant high. I’ve had my lows and like going back to [00:49:45] that. At the same time as my sister passing, my best friend also passed a month [00:49:50] later the same cancer as my sister, so that was hard as well because she was like my [00:49:55] sister, my best friend. You know, your friends are your family. You pick for yourself. But um, when [00:50:00] this particular situation happened of not knowing of [00:50:05] the whole fertility thing and knowing that I couldn’t have children, and I then had [00:50:10] a massive split in friendships, the behaviour [00:50:15] of some of my friends.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Cinta Miller: At that time, and [00:50:20] the justification of other friends trying to justify other friends behaviour [00:50:25] was just like. You fucking what? [00:50:30] Yeah, but I couldn’t believe people’s behaviour.

Rhona Eskander: But I think that’s the thing. Like when you’re at your lowest [00:50:35] and over the last couple of years I’ve had some really awful low points, really shows [00:50:40] you who’s there and who’s not. It’s kind of ugly. It’s is really.

Payman Langroudi: Ugly. There’s another element to it. Yeah. When [00:50:45] you’re when you’re down, no.

Rhona Eskander: One wants to hang around you. No no, no.

Payman Langroudi: When you’re down, you amplify [00:50:50] what’s going on. So a friend who might say something a little bit hurtful because [00:50:55] you’re down, you see that as massively hurtful. And the opposite, the friend who does something a little bit nice, [00:51:00] you think, oh, they’re the most wonderful. It happens. I’ve seen it before, but.

Cinta Miller: I [00:51:05] basically I got told I couldn’t have children.

Payman Langroudi: And how [00:51:10] did you feel like.

Rhona Eskander: Like how did you feel?

Cinta Miller: I [00:51:15] felt. Useless, [00:51:20] really? Yeah. I felt like I’ve achieved all of these things. [00:51:25] And then the one thing I really [00:51:30] want, I can’t do. But what [00:51:35] I will say is that very soon. And [00:51:40] there’s always been an element of me that felt this way, but very soon I was like, there is a child [00:51:45] and I still very much believe it. There is a child on this earth that [00:51:50] I’m made for. They’re not made for me. [00:51:55] I’m made for them. They need me.

Payman Langroudi: But not having children at all isn’t an option [00:52:00] to you at all.

Rhona Eskander: So tell Payman about.

Cinta Miller: So basically the next option was because obviously I [00:52:05] can’t have children, but Liam can. So I then felt this. Maybe it’s going back to people pleasing. I [00:52:10] had this overwhelming urge of, you know, Liam’s amazing. He said, we can adopt [00:52:15] and I really do want to adopt. And there is a child out there that I’m made for, but [00:52:20] Liam can have children and he could leave me and he could go and have children with somebody else. So where how [00:52:25] do we find a way of making this work? Um, so I went to [00:52:30] a fertility clinic and spoke about ovum donation. Egg donation, the. [00:52:35] I’ll be honest with you, the the hospital that I went to here was the doctor I spoke to was [00:52:40] appalling, disgusting, rude was like, yeah, it’s going to cost, it’s really expensive and [00:52:45] there’s a three year waiting list and you need to make out, make sure you can afford it. And I was like, all right, I’m [00:52:50] not going to spend my money with you then. Um, and a good friend of mine, my friend [00:52:55] Kirsty, had messaged me and said to me, I don’t know whether you want [00:53:00] to hear this, but there is a fertility clinic in Greece.

Rhona Eskander: This is literally the most [00:53:05] famous clinic. There are so many people that have gone to this.

Cinta Miller: There’s a really there’s a clinic in Greece called New Life. [00:53:10] They are amazing. The woman there that runs it is amazing. She treats [00:53:15] you like family. She is a wonderful human. I know her personally. Do you want [00:53:20] me to introduce you to her? She did. I had a zoom with her and she basically [00:53:25] said, we can get you an egg donor. And what they literally do in Greece, [00:53:30] they have a rule where you don’t meet your egg donor. You never know who it’s come from, [00:53:35] and they never know where their eggs have gone. But they basically take your height, your weight, your hair [00:53:40] colour, your eye colour, your bra size. Not like [00:53:45] matching your bra size, your interests, your hobbies, whether [00:53:50] you’ve got rhythm or not, whether you play an instrument, whether you’re a smoker, whether you’re not a smoker, what TV shows you [00:53:55] like, what humour you have. You’re everything down to like, minuscule, [00:54:00] like you’re really. It’s like a it’s like a 15 page document. And they [00:54:05] do that and you do your blood test. We went to Greece and basically 12 [00:54:10] weeks later I got a call to say we found you the perfect match. She’s 22. [00:54:15] She’s willing to do to donate her eggs to you. Obviously you give a donation. [00:54:20] So we did that. And she produced 17 eggs, 15 [00:54:25] of which were mature. 15 were fertilised with Liam’s [00:54:30] sperm.

Rhona Eskander: Sperm embryos.

Cinta Miller: Then um, and we created and 12 [00:54:35] were perfect. We had have 12 perfect embryos on [00:54:40] ice in Greece for ready for when I want to put [00:54:45] them in. Then I then went through the journey of doing a fertility treatment plan to see if my [00:54:50] body would accept those eggs. So I went on like a series of drugs. It thickens your [00:54:55] uterus to cushion it, so when the eggs go in, it will cushion. And it was basically my way of being [00:55:00] like, okay, there’s somebody else’s eggs, but I can grow this baby. The baby will have my blood group. It would be my [00:55:05] child. Um, it would still be Liam’s. You know, it was a way of us having a family. And it’s [00:55:10] there. There. And it’s. It’s funny.

Rhona Eskander: Did you ever start it then? Did they ever implant an embryo?

Cinta Miller: So we [00:55:15] done all the. We did all the fertility drugs. It works. My body is on that. [00:55:20] It works. I know it will work. And it has a really high success rate. Um, and [00:55:25] funny enough, people say to me, why didn’t you freeze your eggs? I was like, well, I was only 30. Why was I going to freeze my eggs? One [00:55:30] and two people freeze their eggs, but when they defrost, they’re actually a lot of them die. [00:55:35] So this is the safer way round of doing it anyway, even though they’re not my eggs. But as [00:55:40] time has gone on, Liam and I are like, there is still a child [00:55:45] out there that needs us. Liam’s a music producer. I have an amazing career, amazing friends. [00:55:50] There is some child out there that whose life can be changed. [00:55:55]

Rhona Eskander: I think adoption is also something that people don’t do enough, to be honest, and I think particularly [00:56:00] in their own countries. My husband is super pro adoption. Actually. He’s really pro [00:56:05] it. Oh me too. And he’s very like, there’s so many children out there that need [00:56:10] you. And it’s really funny. Like, I think probably because I’m of an age now where I’m really [00:56:15] like thinking about the kind of like having a family thing. I have a friend, um, she’s [00:56:20] a psychotherapist, and she’s never wanted children. Like, since I was 12. [00:56:25] She did not want children. And a lot of people are like, she’ll change her mind. She’ll [00:56:30] change her mind. She’s 38 now. Still hasn’t changed her mind. She’s got two dogs. She’s very happy she found a partner. [00:56:35] Her partner? The partner doesn’t want kids either. And we had this conversation [00:56:40] over dinner, and he. He said people [00:56:45] are obsessed with their own DNA and cheated. He [00:56:50] said that this guy, this guy, her partner, he goes, people are obsessed with their own DNA. Like they have [00:56:55] an obsession with producing children because it’s like their DNA. Like they have this fear of [00:57:00] their DNA.

Rhona Eskander: Like leaving the planet. My husband was really offended by that because [00:57:05] he was like, no, like, there’s so much more joy in, like, having children. It’s like more than that, etc.. [00:57:10] And my friend who’s a psychotherapist, she said, look, at the end of the day, I’m a psychotherapist. [00:57:15] It’s not I don’t want to say it’s easy to have children, but like, people are not reinventing [00:57:20] the wheel by having children. And a lot of people have children and they don’t know how to actually [00:57:25] treat those children. And there’s so much neglect with children and there’s so much abuse and there’s so [00:57:30] much this and that. So people have children really irresponsibly, is what she said, without thinking through [00:57:35] the huge impact. You always say to me, you’re like having kids is like huge, you know? It makes it [00:57:40] changes your entire life. You said that to me several times. And, you know, she [00:57:45] also said, like adoption, you know, there’s so many children that have been left, like, neglected or [00:57:50] as orphans or whatever it is, and they need to be looked after. And they they’re also.

Payman Langroudi: Understand [00:57:55] someone who says, I don’t want to adopt.

Rhona Eskander: Don’t want to adopt. Yeah, I think I do.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:58:00] know couples where they can’t have kids. And one of them says, I don’t want to at all.

Rhona Eskander: I understand that, I understand [00:58:05] that you do. Yeah, I do. Of course I do. Do you?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Because it’s [00:58:10] only from the difficulty perspective. Right. I find having kids so hard.

Rhona Eskander: That you think [00:58:15] about if it’s not your.

Payman Langroudi: Own, someone else’s kid. My own kid I find so hard. Yeah, but hold on.

Cinta Miller: Can I pause? [00:58:20] Pause. You there? You’re saying you find your own kids being difficult? [00:58:25] Somebody else’s kid? That wouldn’t be somebody else’s. It’s your child. If you adopt, [00:58:30] that is your child, and that’s where the mindset would have to change.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not your child. It is.

Cinta Miller: Your child. [00:58:35]

Rhona Eskander: I think that’s where men and women differ though, because even so, sorry it [00:58:40] is.

Payman Langroudi: It is your child and that’s the child you’re looking after. But you know, biologically it’s not.

Cinta Miller: Biologically it’s [00:58:45] not your child. But if you choose to adopt, you have to. I think the people choosing.

Rhona Eskander: That child and.

Cinta Miller: Choosing [00:58:50] that child is.

Payman Langroudi: Yours 100% saying, I wouldn’t. I just wouldn’t have any more kids if [00:58:55] I had no kids. Yeah, I certainly prefer somewhere where [00:59:00] I think is, you know, where you get you get gay couples who who [00:59:05] bring a new child in the world. And I think there’s all these children adopt one of them, you [00:59:10] know, and they bring a new child in the world without a mother and.

Rhona Eskander: Because it’s their sperm. But I think [00:59:15] this is what I’m trying to say to you. Like there is the whole, like, DNA argument, right? Like, not from my perspective, [00:59:20] but I think what he was saying is it’s like he’s making a good point, right? Like, why don’t the gay couples adopt? Why are [00:59:25] they obsessed with their own sperm being used? Do you see what I mean? Not obsessed, but like. But what? What is that?

Cinta Miller: Like, maybe [00:59:30] it’s a way of genetically proving that they can still be in a gay relationship and still [00:59:35] have a family, because I think there’s there’s that big misconception or things, [00:59:40] you know, it’s a very dated way of thinking. Back in the day, people thought, off you go, you can’t have a family. [00:59:45] So I think now you can by adopting. But now but now they can. But biologically [00:59:50] I’m speaking because yeah, that’s maybe that’s the way round. But for [00:59:55] me, as I said before, going back to what you were saying about your [01:00:00] friend not wanting children, when I found out I couldn’t have children, my friendship [01:00:05] circle was completely split and I find it weird. I had a friend, well, I [01:00:10] had a friend. I had a friend who really, really, really was adamant she [01:00:15] did not want children. Completely adamant she didn’t want children. When I told her, she was like, oh my God, [01:00:20] there’s me not wanting children and there’s you. And I was like, listen, I don’t I don’t take [01:00:25] offence for you not wanting kids.

Rhona Eskander: Everyone’s Yeah.

Cinta Miller: Yeah. It’s everyone’s journey is their own. And I don’t take [01:00:30] offence. And then she got pregnant and has had a baby and just avoided me like the [01:00:35] plague. And our friendship is dead and gone. Like dead in the water, like she hasn’t. [01:00:40]

Payman Langroudi: She felt awkward around.

Cinta Miller: I don’t know, I had lots of different forms of justification of like, oh, maybe [01:00:45] she felt awkward around you. Maybe this, maybe that. And actually I have another friend [01:00:50] who was who wanted kids, but, you know, who wanted kids and knew what I was going through [01:00:55] and then fell pregnant. And actually I was the first person she told. And I was [01:01:00] so thrilled for her. And I cannot tell you how much joy I have from [01:01:05] my friend’s children, even if I don’t see her very often. Just seeing her kids on, [01:01:10] you know, little Instagram posts and the little videos that she sends me weekly, they bring me [01:01:15] such joy. I literally, I love kids, I find them hilarious. I find them [01:01:20] like, this is what I.

Rhona Eskander: Mean about Shinto. I don’t think this is the people pleasing side because I’m like, you can see she [01:01:25] has no resentment. There’s someone that could have incredible resentment. But that’s why I wanted, [01:01:30] like from the mental health point of view, like, what have you done to become to to put bitterness [01:01:35] and anger like away from like the world, universe, God, like you’re not [01:01:40] angry or bitter or blaming. You’re not. You don’t have that victim mentality because [01:01:45] things have happened.

Cinta Miller: There’s probably Lynn would probably beg to differ. So you probably beg to differ [01:01:50] behind closed doors. There are days where I think to myself, I [01:01:55] think we all choose what we let affect us. And I think there’s other [01:02:00] things that affect me deeper than that. I find inauthenticity [01:02:05] unauthentic people.

Rhona Eskander: But that’s because of the industry you work in, which we’ll come on [01:02:10] to.

Cinta Miller: Authentic people aren’t authentic personas, but. [01:02:15]

Rhona Eskander: That’s because of the industry you work.

Cinta Miller: In that.

Rhona Eskander: Annoys.

Cinta Miller: You, really affects me. If [01:02:20] I see someone in Instagram being a certain way and I know they’re not like that, I’m out. [01:02:25] It pisses me off if I see somebody being successful because of that. It pisses me off. Why? [01:02:30] Because I’m like, you’re. You’re not. You’re not.

Rhona Eskander: A douchebag. I [01:02:35] say this to Payman all the time.

Cinta Miller: Basically, it pisses me off because I think to myself, people are buying into [01:02:40] something. I’ll go.

Rhona Eskander: Into that.

Cinta Miller: People are buying into something that isn’t real.

Rhona Eskander: So there’s [01:02:45] somebody.

Cinta Miller: If they saw that person’s true character, they wouldn’t buy into that person. And [01:02:50] there is a person that does have that true character that deserves.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:02:55] obviously. But when I say why, I don’t mean that. I mean, like, for instance, my business partner, his [01:03:00] bugbear is lying.

Cinta Miller: Oh, my God, I can’t bear it.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. But like, if [01:03:05] someone lies to him, he’s done. He’s really, really, like, hurt by it. Like [01:03:10] it’s massive. Like, I don’t like being lied to. Yeah, but it doesn’t hit me as hard [01:03:15] as it hits him. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So what hits you hard?

Cinta Miller: Yeah. [01:03:20] What hits you hard?

Rhona Eskander: Someone else using other whitening system. Kids festival. [01:03:25]

Cinta Miller: I’m joking.

Payman Langroudi: No, I don’t know. But my point, my question, my why question is why [01:03:30] does inauthenticity hit you so hard?

Rhona Eskander: I think.

Payman Langroudi: Compared to the next.

Cinta Miller: Man, I feel like because [01:03:35] I try to always be the truest version of myself. Why? Because I don’t think [01:03:40] there’s any other way to be. Why?

Rhona Eskander: He’s like this, by the way. He tries to trigger [01:03:45] you. Why? No. But why?

Cinta Miller: But why? I’ve. I feel like I’ve been [01:03:50] put on this planet to be the way I am. I’m born the way I am, and it’s. [01:03:55]

Rhona Eskander: Okay. Listen, can I.

Cinta Miller: Just.

Rhona Eskander: Can I interject? So Chinta works [01:04:00] with a huge number of celebrities. She has huge experience working in the industry, [01:04:05] famous people, musicians, etc. so from both our point of view as well. First of all, you know, [01:04:10] to a degree with the sort of people that put ourselves out there, we’ve got a platform. Et cetera. Et cetera. [01:04:15] But I think that that’s really difficult is that when you see why people are worshipped? And I think the [01:04:20] older I’ve got, I recognise that we worship celebrities. You know, I’m saying we as in like collective [01:04:25] as the world Y. Okay. And then you meet some people and you’re like, you’re not who you say you [01:04:30] are. And I think it’s, you know, there’s so many people that look up to you and so many people [01:04:35] that, you know, buy into what you’re saying, but you’re not even who you say you are. You [01:04:40] know, it’s a bit like when people say, don’t meet your heroes, you know, and it’s and that’s it’s a really difficult thing because [01:04:45] if you’re such an honest person and you convey yourself in your truest [01:04:50] form, it’s annoying and it’s upsetting. And also, from a personal point [01:04:55] of view, if you work really hard and you see somebody that is inauthentic [01:05:00] doing better than you, it’s not necessarily jealousy, I would say. But it’s like you do feel a bit hard done [01:05:05] by. It’s frustration because you’re like, I work so hard. That person is so dishonest. But people [01:05:10] buy into them more and it’s frustrating.

Cinta Miller: You know what else happens? An inauthentic person [01:05:15] likes to look at people like ourselves that are true, [01:05:20] Honest. Listen, I’m, I don’t I people think I’m an extra. I can be an extrovert in some [01:05:25] instances. Other instances. I’m a real introvert. I remember going on tour once [01:05:30] and my. He’s actually my business partner now, a guy called Ashton. And but years ago, [01:05:35] Ashton and I were going on this, this big tour with quite a famous music artist. [01:05:40] And that music artist is said to Ashton is coming on tour with us. And he went, oh. [01:05:45] I like her. She’s coming on tour with [01:05:50] us. And she was like, yeah. He was like, oh my God, we’re not going to sleep. We’re not going to sleep. [01:05:55] She’s going to talk non-stop. She’s going to do our fucking heads in. Oh my God.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know if I can.

Cinta Miller: I [01:06:00] don’t know. Let me just tell you this. And then we got on tour and at [01:06:05] work I’m like that. And then as soon as the day was over, we were on the tour bus. I was like, I’ll just [01:06:10] let you know. I’ve made you a chicken sandwich. I’ve made you this, and I’m just going to go to bed now at night. And Ashton was like, [01:06:15] where are you going to bed? And he was like, on tour. You were like Old Mother Hubbard. He goes without [01:06:20] you on that tour would have been. It would have been so different because you were so amazing. [01:06:25] And I completely fell in love with you on that tour. And from that day, you’re one of my best friends. And now [01:06:30] he’s my business partner. Because actually, I think there’s a means. There’s a time and a place for being [01:06:35] extrovert. Right? But inauthentic people like to look at people like us [01:06:40] and go, yeah, but they’re trying to be. They’re trying to be famous. They’re trying.

Rhona Eskander: To [01:06:45] be like this in the dental industry all the.

Cinta Miller: Time. They’re trying to be famous. They can’t, you know, they just want their name up in lights. They want we [01:06:50] can’t help that. We’re good at something and are successful, and people want to be around us [01:06:55] and we’re magnetic. But the inauthentic people don’t like it. So there must be something wrong [01:07:00] with us because there’s something wrong with them. They know there’s something wrong with them, so they project that onto [01:07:05] us. That’s what pisses me off.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got a question. It’s kind of for both of you. [01:07:10] You know, in your job and in your job, right? You’re coming across the [01:07:15] elite to some extent of our society. Yeah. And [01:07:20] and you’re kind of really it’s almost like you you’ve got like this top [01:07:25] table of society and, you know, you can see what’s going on on [01:07:30] that top table, but you’re not on it yourself. Does that frustrate you? Does that what [01:07:35] emotions go through you?

Cinta Miller: I’m going to be really honest. I look at the elite. [01:07:40] Yeah. I’m happy for them. And I’m like, you don’t want it. You stay there. And [01:07:45] it’s not jealousy. It’s not that I don’t want to do it. I’m like, if I happen to get to that point and I’m [01:07:50] there, so be it. And if I’m not, do you know what? I’m going to go home and make myself a [01:07:55] cup of tea and watch Married at First Sight.

Payman Langroudi: Because you do sometimes feel like you’re living [01:08:00] a double life, like, I don’t know.

Cinta Miller: No, not really. And I think that’s part of the reason why I’m successful. Because. [01:08:05] And when I take on youngsters as assistants, [01:08:10] one thing I say to them is like, especially at fashion week, I’m like, there’s loads of fashion week parties. Don’t [01:08:15] be the last person to leave. If you want to go, go and dip your toe in.

Rhona Eskander: When I took her to a fashion party [01:08:20] London Fashion Week, I took her to the most exclusive party. There were all these A-listers like, we’re [01:08:25] here for a good time. Not a long time. Yeah. Don’t be the last one to leave.

Cinta Miller: It’s like. I just feel like [01:08:30] if you want to be part of that world, let me tell you, the A-listers don’t want to be [01:08:35] at a big party for very long. They’re in and out. Yeah, you go and [01:08:40] you set your worth by going. Dipping your toe in and leaving. Because actually, [01:08:45] your worth is your career and your reputation. My [01:08:50] reputation isn’t built on being a party girl, so therefore I’m happy to go. And I always say to my youngsters, [01:08:55] don’t be, um, what’s the word? Gaslit, [01:09:00] blind, whatever, whatever the word is. Don’t get rose tinted glasses by thinking, [01:09:05] oh, I work in fashion now. It’s the Brits. I’m going to the after party and I’m going to go and then go and do loads of drugs [01:09:10] and then wake up the next day, because you’ll just go enjoy it a bit [01:09:15] and I promise you the next day you won’t have FOMO [01:09:20] or you won’t have that beer, fear or whatever. What you’ll be is like, I had such a [01:09:25] short, snappy point of that, like [01:09:30] time at that event that holds such value and you’ll cherish it. [01:09:35] One of my best, one of my best friends was an actress back in the day, and [01:09:40] I used to go to events with her all the time. We used to go in, take the picture, and we were out the back door and within [01:09:45] half an hour at home, face mask on and a cup of tea. Um, and I think [01:09:50] that has been the key to my success. It’s never overstaying my [01:09:55] welcome or being a place where I don’t really need to be.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not only talking about events, though, I’m talking about [01:10:00] just lives.

Cinta Miller: Um, listen, what do.

Rhona Eskander: You mean by lives?

Payman Langroudi: Like, [01:10:05] I don’t know, man. You might. You might go. You might end up at some [01:10:10] on, on some holiday with some people who whose lives are just totally different [01:10:15] to yours because they are these elite types and you feel like you’re [01:10:20] I feel like it’s on the edge of it because I can see what people are doing, but I’m not there. Or maybe I just watched [01:10:25] them eyes wide shut. Maybe that’s why.

Cinta Miller: I think there’s. I also think there’s two different [01:10:30] types of people as well. You know, when you get the elite elite that genuinely do have [01:10:35] like, I’ve got some clients that have got ridiculous amounts of wealth, probably [01:10:40] the same as you, incredibly wealthy, incredibly successful. But they with [01:10:45] that comes with them being incredibly down to earth. Yeah some are. I [01:10:50] find it I don’t find it’s the elite that I like that I feel it’s the people that [01:10:55] are here that think they’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Got to be the elite.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Listen, you get you get [01:11:00] a lot of that in dentistry. I think there is so, so much ego in dentistry. [01:11:05] And I honestly have never seen as much ego in dentistry as I have in any [01:11:10] other profession. I genuinely mean that. And like, I know people in finance, I know people, but it’s [01:11:15] it’s quite remarkable, like some dentists think. And I know that perhaps the older generation [01:11:20] dentists would say the same about me. Like they genuinely believe that they are like these crazy [01:11:25] celebrities. And, you know, I’m like, back yourself. You know.

Payman Langroudi: You can that is you. That [01:11:30] is you. No, no, no.

Rhona Eskander: Look at him, look at him. Listen, I don’t think so at all. Payman be [01:11:35] fair to me, though. Be fair to me, because you have even said to me that you [01:11:40] get shocked at my the lack of my self-esteem and my self-worth. So how can I back myself [01:11:45] if I don’t even believe that I’m good enough? Like that’s a that’s an oxymoron in itself. [01:11:50] So for me, actually, I’ve spent my whole life feeling like I am not [01:11:55] good enough, feeling that I have not made it. And as I get older, I feel old and irrelevant because [01:12:00] of the narrative that has been created around women and their worth as they get older. So [01:12:05] actually I feel more and more worthless in society I sometimes compare [01:12:10] myself to young girls online that are living these incredible lives on private islands [01:12:15] and private jets. And I’ve got this amazing friend called David, and [01:12:20] I call up David, or I go and see him. He works next to me. That’s the one that we’re doing the block party with. And [01:12:25] he goes, um, I go to look at my life. I’m like, taking the bus. Now I’m living this [01:12:30] ratchet little life and like, look at this girl. And he’s like, he knows the ins and outs of [01:12:35] some of these girls and not as all that it seems. You know, there is there is a dystopian [01:12:40] darkness to all of this. These girls that are on the private jets [01:12:45] that are wearing all the hermés bags that appear to be making lots of money online, [01:12:50] there is a darkness. You know, there’s also this entire world of money where [01:12:55] they’re actually being paid for services. You know, that they don’t talk about. And I [01:13:00] didn’t know about all of this. There is even a website called Seeking Arrangements. [01:13:05] So seeking arrangements, um, is where these beautiful women are [01:13:10] being paired up with men, and there’s different levels. No, I’m not joking.

Cinta Miller: There’s different lots [01:13:15] of clients that have been on seeking arrangements.

Rhona Eskander: There’s lots of levels so you can get paid for your company. You can get paid to [01:13:20] be a party with them. You can get paid for other things. And the tiers go on and the moneys go [01:13:25] on. And the problem is, is that once somebody has had a little taste of that kind of life and you’re [01:13:30] talking about elite life, I’m talking about private jets and private islands, right. The problem is, is that [01:13:35] you get used to that. And then on Instagram you might see like, hey, I’m on a private jet, but then there’s darkness associated that, you [01:13:40] know, how does your soul feel? How does your mind feel? And it’s this whole kind of thing.

Payman Langroudi: Even [01:13:45] the guy who owns the island. Yeah, um, his brother might be suicidal [01:13:50] and a heroin addict, or he might be this down to earth guy, you know what I mean? [01:13:55]

Cinta Miller: But it’s when I look at stuff like that, if I’m honest, I see. I [01:14:00] see that, and I’m just like, the reality is [01:14:05] those kind of situations for those kind of people don’t last forever. They have [01:14:10] to make the best out of a limited time. They’re relying on looks certain [01:14:15] you know, the way their body looks, they’re getting surgery or whatever. And listen, good luck to them if they’re happy. [01:14:20] But I know that doesn’t last forever for me. There maybe would have been a time [01:14:25] years ago when I was like, oh, you know, I want to look better. I want to, you know, I want to, [01:14:30] I want to look, I don’t know, I want to look like a Victoria. I want to look like Kim Kardashian. I don’t know, you [01:14:35] look at girls and, like, they’re really attractive and you want to better yourself. But actually, I [01:14:40] think value and wealth really comes from [01:14:45] an insight. It really is. And it’s such a big inside job. As [01:14:50] I said, I I’ve got friends that are incredibly wealthy and I go to [01:14:55] their houses and they’re, they’ve got these beautiful grounds and whatever. And then and I go there and I think to myself, [01:15:00] my eyes and your eyes are the same. You might own this, but I’m seeing it the same [01:15:05] as you, and I’m benefiting from it. I’m enjoying it. I get the same enjoyment from it. I [01:15:10] get the same enjoyment from I can go to a restaurant and I can get the same enjoyment from [01:15:15] a taste. I can get the same enjoyment from this lovely cup of herbal tea. For me, it’s the enjoyment [01:15:20] that that we have that things that money can’t buy.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:15:25] know the cliche, the best things in life are actually free. Yeah they.

Cinta Miller: Are. And I think.

Rhona Eskander: It’s finding, it’s finding [01:15:30] the extraordinary in the ordinary. Yeah. As cliche as that sounds, you know, because [01:15:35] as you said, even going through that horrific stuff that you went through, being on the top of the mountain, like genuinely, [01:15:40] sometimes when you take a moment when you’re not on your phone and you look up at something like a beautiful autumn [01:15:45] day or you know your surroundings, you can find beauty and gratitude in [01:15:50] the, in the, in the ordinary things. Like there’s some days that even when I come to this podcast and [01:15:55] I’m like, oh, I have like mad love for Payman and like what we do, do you know what I mean? It’s like we’re doing like a normal [01:16:00] thing, if that makes sense. It’s nothing extraordinary, but I think you can find it in those little [01:16:05] things.

Cinta Miller: And you know what’s funny as well? This will probably this will probably really make you laugh. [01:16:10] But you know, like you’re saying, you find beauty [01:16:15] in ordinary things. I think the day that I was in Thailand and I looked up and I was like, oh my God. And I was incredibly [01:16:20] lucky. I think that’s when my outlook really changed on things. And I, I every [01:16:25] day I’m really grateful for a lot of things. I’m like grateful. I’ve woken up, grateful. I’m breathing, grateful. I look, I open my curtains [01:16:30] and there’s trees outside my curtains.

Payman Langroudi: Do you what do you make a practice of being grateful?

Cinta Miller: I don’t [01:16:35] make a practice. I just feel that I do.

Payman Langroudi: Is it part of your morning routine to be grateful?

Rhona Eskander: I’ve [01:16:40] started doing it more and more. Like a few things have happened to me in the last couple of years, [01:16:45] and I’ve had no choice but to force myself into situations of gratitude. [01:16:50] Um, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: I was I was going to say sorry.

Cinta Miller: I was going to say something that’s going to make [01:16:55] you laugh. But it’s funny because, as I said, I’ve got friends that live in these incredible [01:17:00] houses and do really well for themselves and yada yada. And I go around there and I’m like, great. And [01:17:05] then, you know, I live in an area that’s really beautiful. I [01:17:10] live in a really beautiful part of the world. I don’t have the biggest home. I have a lovely home. It’s not [01:17:15] the biggest home. And people come to where I live and they’re [01:17:20] like, oh my God, you live inside. Wow, what a beautiful part of the world to live in. It’s like a small, humble home, [01:17:25] but it’s beautiful. And then there are some people [01:17:30] that can go to a mate’s house that have the big house and be like, jealous [01:17:35] or there are. Or you can kind of be like, you could use it to your advantage. I, [01:17:40] I always say to Liam and Liam’s like not having it. I’m like, when [01:17:45] you know, our next thing, what I’d really like to do is [01:17:50] have a by our, like, our forever home and then have like a little pad [01:17:55] in London in a certain area and Liam’s like, yeah, maybe. [01:18:00] And I’m like, well, if it was my choice, I would live in that certain area. Now he’s like, no, you [01:18:05] live in that certain area. You live on the exact road and I’ve dropped you there and I don’t go. Ronan [01:18:10] lives there and I’m not jealous. I’m like, Hallelujah, I’ve [01:18:15] got a mate that lives on that road that I can benefit from. Now I can go down that road. Why do you think.

Payman Langroudi: Some [01:18:20] people are like that and other people.

Cinta Miller: Are jealous? It’s. It comes from a place of lack. It comes from a place [01:18:25] of.

Rhona Eskander: But did you do that work, Chinta? Like with all the losses in your life? Or do you think [01:18:30] that you were like. Or do you think your mum brought you up like that? Or do you think. Because obviously going through what you’ve [01:18:35] been through, there was going to be like moments of, like such deep sadness? Or did you have therapy? [01:18:40] Like how did you get there?

Cinta Miller: Do you know what’s funny? And this is only something I realised as an adult, as a kid, [01:18:45] especially as a five year old kid, we were really poor. Super [01:18:50] poor. We lived. Not that people that live in a council house are poor, but we lived in a council house [01:18:55] in a really rough council estate. My mum didn’t have much money. She was on minimum wage working [01:19:00] at the hospital. Five kids, really poor. But do you know what my mom did? It [01:19:05] wasn’t until I was an adult that I realised we were poor. My mum made us feel like the [01:19:10] richest kids going because my mum sat us at the table, fed us a three course meal [01:19:15] every night. There was pasta, there was chicken, there was salad. She made sure we were [01:19:20] clean. We were bathed every day. We were in clean bed sheets. [01:19:25] We were fed and watered. I felt like I was the richest kid at school I went to. I [01:19:30] used to go to school with a packed lunch of lasagne and sandwiches and pasta, you know, all sorts [01:19:35] of stuff, whereas kids just had like a packet of crisps, a wafer and like [01:19:40] a dead cheese and pickle sandwich. Whereas my mum had [01:19:45] this ability to make us feel like we lived in abundance, and I feel like [01:19:50] that’s what I’ve carried with me.

Rhona Eskander: Abundance.

Cinta Miller: Abundance. And I think that people that feel [01:19:55] that way have come from a place of lack. It’s Comparison. Parents have said, oh, so-and-so’s got [01:20:00] that, bought a car. I bet they’ve got that car. And I will get a better car. I will do this. It’s comparison. And [01:20:05] I actually don’t care about that. If you get something that’s great, I’m thrilled for you. [01:20:10] If you live in the area that I want to live in, I’m coming to meet you for a coffee every Sunday. And I’m going to make [01:20:15] it work. Work to my favour.

Payman Langroudi: Comparison really is the comparison.

Cinta Miller: It’s [01:20:20] just awful.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So I could sit and talk to you for ages. [01:20:25] Thank you so much for sharing your truths and your journey for us. To us. [01:20:30] Journey to us. Um, I think you’re amazing.

Cinta Miller: And you’re amazing, and [01:20:35] I think you’re.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing. Um, and thank you for, you know, sharing everything. For those of you that want to [01:20:40] know, um, her Instagram handle is chin to London. She’s an incredible makeup artist doing music [01:20:45] as well. I have been on the iconic website for doing my makeup, [01:20:50] so she is amazing and incredible. And thank you so much for being here today.

Cinta Miller: Thank you for having me. Thank you. Cheers. [01:20:55]

Mark Becker: And I’m going to be guided by you. The old days of the dentist sitting there and saying, you have to have X, Y, and Z are over. [00:00:05] You have to. You know, I hate the phrase co-discover, but that’s the truth. At the end of the day, you [00:00:10] have to explain to patients, show them and say, you know, own. Own what you want. If you [00:00:15] want to leave things alone and wait for emergency dentistry, that’s fine, but own the responsibility [00:00:20] of that. If you’re going on holiday or something breaks, don’t be upset about it. That was your choice. [00:00:25] Yeah. And alternatively, if you want to, you know, gradually rehabilitate your mouth and fix everything, [00:00:30] you know, own the fact that, yes, it’s going to cost you some time. It’s going to cost you some money. You’re going to have to invest in yourself, [00:00:35] but own that, you know, you they have to take the responsibility on themselves [00:00:40] and treat them like the intelligent people that most of them are, but document everything.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:45] is Dental Leaders, [00:00:50] the podcast where you get to go one on one [00:00:55] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:00] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:01:05]

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome doctor Mark Becker onto [00:01:10] the podcast. Mark is a veteran of general practice.

Mark Becker: Makes me sound [00:01:15] like I’m 92 years old.

Payman Langroudi: Almost right.

Mark Becker: I might feel my joints might be 92, [00:01:20] but I’m not.

Payman Langroudi: Several practices all the way from squats. Um, [00:01:25] West End start ups, sort of, uh, existing [00:01:30] practices now culminating in a practice in Brent Cross in the shopping centre. [00:01:35] And, um, Mark’s on my radar because he’s one of the biggest enlightened users in the country. [00:01:40] Um, but I want to get from this conversation, Mark, sort of lessons [00:01:45] you’ve learned and, and things you’ve, you’ve, you’ve learned from people to do and not to do, [00:01:50] because along that journey you must have met a bunch of people. And also I’m quite [00:01:55] interested in before we started recording, we were talking about your dad, who had one of the first sort of multi [00:02:00] practice chains and what that gave you. So welcome to the [00:02:05] pod.

Mark Becker: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Payman Langroudi: So dentistry was dentistry always [00:02:10] going to happen for you.

Mark Becker: No. So dentistry wasn’t always going to happen for me. So my father was a dentist as you [00:02:15] said. He had a chain of surgeries. He employed a lot of dentists. If any South Africans are listening, [00:02:20] they’ll probably remember him, especially if they’re around my age. Um, I always [00:02:25] grew up with with South African dentists around or Australian dentists, you know, some of them were Springboks, [00:02:30] even some of them were in. We even had a couple of All Blacks work, you know, who were dentists at the time, who worked with dad. [00:02:35]

Payman Langroudi: What was the name of the group again?

Mark Becker: Tommy Parades and Barker Parade and.

Payman Langroudi: Becker.

Mark Becker: And um, [00:02:40] dad wanted me to do dentistry, but he was wise enough to know that, like any father, if you tell your son what [00:02:45] to do, chances are they’re not going to do it. Yeah. So I went off to, uh, [00:02:50] Southampton and did physiology and pharmacology first. Okay. Yeah. And I remember doing the [00:02:55] milk run, as they used to call it that they don’t remember because they’ll call it that. You’re looking for a job and the jobs [00:03:00] weren’t that impressive that were available. I think it was. You go and do some research studying for Mars or something, [00:03:05] and I thought, hmm, maybe not. And then I was going to apply for a PhD [00:03:10] in I think it was foetal endocrinology at those days, I think. And that never really amounted [00:03:15] to much. And my dad said, well, maybe you should look at something else. It doesn’t matter. You’re a bit [00:03:20] older now, but you can still do it. So of course, listening to my father, I thought, I’ll try medicine. [00:03:25] So my cousin was Colin Pogo and Colin Pogo was pogo [00:03:30] anaesthetics. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and he had a. That’s your cousin. That’s my first cousin. Yeah. [00:03:35] He passed away, um, from pancreatic cancer, like my father. Um, and [00:03:40] I went to Colin, and he was working in Tunbridge Wells at the time, and I don’t know what my father said to [00:03:45] him at the time. My father being his uncle. Um, I go down there and I have never [00:03:50] heard. I spent three days down there with Colin. He was doing anaesthetics there, and I’ve never heard people moan [00:03:55] as much as the doctors and nurses that I’m sitting there and I’m thinking, I don’t ever hear the dentist [00:04:00] moaning as much as this. Maybe I’m cutting off my nose to spite my face here. So [00:04:05] I changed my mind and applied for dentistry, figuring I’ve got a degree, I can always do something. [00:04:10] And yeah, I got to say, for the moment I started, I really enjoyed it. I went to Leeds [00:04:15] and yeah, they, they work as hard. But I got to say a nice, nice load of people [00:04:20] there. Were you South.

Payman Langroudi: East based at the time I.

Mark Becker: Was, yeah I was, I was Southampton, London and I [00:04:25] grew up in London then went down to Southampton University, went, went up to Leeds [00:04:30] and.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. How did that strike you.

Mark Becker: Yeah that was yeah. We might have to dub this bit out actually. [00:04:35] Um, the truth is what.

Payman Langroudi: Is this 80s. We’re talking.

Mark Becker: Um, [00:04:40] we’re talking, uh, late 80s. No. Yeah. 88, 89, 89 went up to Leeds and [00:04:45] I’d never really been to the North. And don’t get me wrong, it’s a lovely place. There’s some beautiful places I’ve been to. [00:04:50] But my abiding memory of going to Leeds the first day was turning up [00:04:55] and yeah, we’re going to have to dub this bit out. Um, and watching, um, some lady pull [00:05:00] her kid’s pants down in the middle of the street for the kid to wee in the street. And that was my first day in Leeds, was genuinely [00:05:05] my first day in Leeds. And I’m thinking, you know, I’m still not in Kansas type scenario, but that [00:05:10] that was that was actually the worst of it. The rest was great, to be fair, but I just remember that happened to be my first day. Did [00:05:15] you enjoy the course? Yes, I think I did. Um, [00:05:20] I don’t think it prepares you for the real world at all. No. Um, and but I [00:05:25] can’t say I didn’t. I did have the advantage, however, of having done my degree beforehand, that some [00:05:30] of the harder first year subjects, which no one’s really that turned on by Typekit were relatively [00:05:35] easy for me, though. So. And that was more mature.

Payman Langroudi: Than the rest.

Mark Becker: Yeah, actually we had quite [00:05:40] a few, I think I think about there were about eight mature students in my year actually. There’s quite a few, a couple [00:05:45] of doctors as well who’ve gone on to be surgeons. Right. Um, well, they’re probably retired [00:05:50] by now.

Payman Langroudi: What were you like? Were you top of your class? Were, you know, Swot?

Mark Becker: No.

Payman Langroudi: Party animal. [00:05:55] Which which which.

Mark Becker: Certainly not a party animal. Never been a party animal. Never been accused of that, ever. [00:06:00] And if my if my wife heard me been accused of a party animal, she thinks I might be a pod [00:06:05] person, you know, being swapped over or something. Um, no, I’ve never been a party animal. [00:06:10] Being studious, I’m dyslexic, so I’ve always had to. Reading for me doesn’t come very [00:06:15] easily, so I’d always have to have a I’d go into the lecture [00:06:20] theatres and take the great big whiteboard and write everything down. And that’s the only way I got to remember stuff. So [00:06:25] for me to read and retain, it was always a little bit more difficult. But, um, yeah, [00:06:30] it gives you other advantages at the end of the day. And yeah, the course was yeah, [00:06:35] I look at it back at it fondly. I’m sure there’s days I hated I’m pulling my hair out. But [00:06:40] like every student.

Payman Langroudi: When you’ve got a dad who’s been so entrenched in dentistry, [00:06:45] having met so many dentists before even starting the course, did you have sort of an [00:06:50] idea of the kind of dentist you wanted to be early on?

Mark Becker: It wasn’t so much that it was like, [00:06:55] so I’d see things like, I remember going to my dad’s practice in Greenford Road in [00:07:00] Sudbury Hill, and he had a laboratory there and a dentures. In [00:07:05] those days it made loads of dentures. I remember sitting there playing with the wax at the age of six. My dad didn’t really want me in the office, [00:07:10] but it was half term and my mum didn’t need me in the house. So daddy, daddy Day-care and [00:07:15] daddy Day-care was a rex. A guy called Rex who used [00:07:20] to sit there and make dentures. And I remember just sitting there playing with the wax and playing around with that. And that [00:07:25] did help me a little bit later on, whether I remembered it or not. But I do remember doing [00:07:30] that. Did you have an.

Payman Langroudi: Idea of the type of dentist you wanted to be?

Mark Becker: No I didn’t. For me, dental dentistry was [00:07:35] just you are a dentist and that was it. It was there. Was there were you were you either want to be a specialist or [00:07:40] you were a general dentist. And that that was it. And I in general dentistry itself, I don’t think there [00:07:45] was there was so much division as to what you could do. You know these interests in [00:07:50] type topics. So whether it’s whitening or straightening teeth or, um, [00:07:55] you know, restorative work.

Payman Langroudi: Did you feel the weight of what your dad had had achieved? But, you [00:08:00] know, it’s.

Mark Becker: No, because I was always very different from him, because dad was more the business [00:08:05] of dentistry and he gave up dentistry, you know, probably when I [00:08:10] was really young, I mean, he he used to tell me the story of working on a patient, [00:08:15] doing a denture try and getting disturbed by six phone calls to do with other surgeries [00:08:20] and issues going on, and the patient just losing his rag at him and saying, you know, who are you paying [00:08:25] attention to? Your bookie? Because he thought he was gambling, wasn’t it? Was the dental surgeon. He was gambling in a different way. Yeah. [00:08:30] And, um, and he just said at that point he realised, you know, he’s got to either concentrate [00:08:35] on the business of dentistry or be a dentist. And truthfully, he probably made the right decision. [00:08:40] I probably made the wrong decision. I’m lucky, however, in that I’ve actually always loved doing it. Even to this [00:08:45] day, I still love doing dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got to do what suits you in life. You know, if if owning ten [00:08:50] practices was right for him, it doesn’t mean it was right for you. But. But was he was he absent [00:08:55] a lot because he was so busy?

Mark Becker: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Or did he manage fatherhood changed. [00:09:00]

Mark Becker: Yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: That was the norm.

Mark Becker: Back then. Yeah, I think it was the norm. I mean, I remember being [00:09:05] at home and he’d come in and he’d go straight to his office and do some work. And, you know, I call him when the news came on [00:09:10] TV or something, and he might come and watch the news with me. Um, and I think that’s just [00:09:15] the way things have changed. I mean, uh, maybe a little bit closer to the mark than I really wanted [00:09:20] to discuss. But things like, I remember when he was dying and he would turn around [00:09:25] and say, you know, you’re a better father than I was. And that’s, you know, I can understand [00:09:30] what he’s saying to me was the world, but for for my for myself, [00:09:35] you know, it wasn’t so much that I was a better father. We’re just different times we grew up in, you [00:09:40] know, the fathers expect to do more hands on things today. And, you know, those days, it [00:09:45] just wasn’t it was very much, you know, mother does mother’s role and daddy does daddy’s role.

Payman Langroudi: And although, you know, that’s the.

Mark Becker: Way [00:09:50] it was.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve had people sitting where you’re sitting. Um, incredible. I mean, a women [00:09:55] sometimes with children who owns 40 practices. Yeah. [00:10:00] Yeah. And you think, how is that possible?

Mark Becker: I don’t know how they got time to do it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. And then. But [00:10:05] then they’re incredibly sort of guilt ridden sometimes talking about how they can’t spend as much time with their kids [00:10:10] as they’d like to.

Mark Becker: I think that’s true of any, any, any woman working in the workplace and worried about balancing life [00:10:15] and.

Payman Langroudi: But but what I, what I always try and impress on them is that you do as a kid learn [00:10:20] by osmosis, you know, like in that same way if you’re sitting in the kitchen while your mum’s chopping [00:10:25] an onion, she doesn’t have to show you how she’s chopping the onion for you to sort of just pick it up. Yeah. [00:10:30] Yeah. And in the same sense, did you get any of that from your dad? Um. [00:10:35]

Mark Becker: Did I get any of that? What did you.

Payman Langroudi: Learn from him?

Mark Becker: From my hard.

Payman Langroudi: Work. [00:10:40]

Mark Becker: Hard work was the main thing I learned from my father. I mean, very different characters. I mean, he was a [00:10:45] collector. He collected everything. Stamps, coins, you know, pickle forks, I mean, you name it, he collected [00:10:50] it. Um, and he was, you know, he’d he’d be travelling, he’d, you know, [00:10:55] very, very family motivated. He’d literally pick up when we were going on holidays as a family, we’d be in a city [00:11:00] we’d never been to. We’d literally open up the, um, guidebook, you know, Telecom [00:11:05] telephone. What was it called? Yellow pages. Yellow pages. That’s it. And he literally opened the yellow pages and looked for family [00:11:10] names, find the family name of and literally start making phone calls. Were you related? You know, that he literally [00:11:15] go through the book and. And he found people. He found someone in, um, uh, Pittsburgh. [00:11:20] He found a family member we never knew he had. He found we were in Pittsburgh and we found a relative.

Payman Langroudi: What a character. [00:11:25] Yeah.

Mark Becker: So, um. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: All right, so let’s talk about did you have in [00:11:30] your days, I was.

Mark Becker: The first year compulsory. First compulsory. So you remember [00:11:35] the ball. You remember the ball that year?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mark Becker: Yeah, I was the chairman of the ball that year. Oh. You’re [00:11:40] kidding. Yeah, I was the one saying, please be quiet. Everyone’s screaming over there and there’s [00:11:45] no control at all. It was in Bloomsbury.

Payman Langroudi: So your first boss?

Mark Becker: My [00:11:50] dad.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, is that your dad? Yeah. So he was your boss, in fact.

Mark Becker: No, he wasn’t my boss. [00:11:55] Uh, a guy by the name of Mark Kaplan was one of my dad’s partners. And I’ll actually [00:12:00] be forever indebted to him for, like, teaching me dentistry, because I really think a lot from [00:12:05] him.

Payman Langroudi: The first boss sets you on a particular trajectory, and almost those [00:12:10] first lessons stick with you longer than other lessons because you start making up your mind.

Mark Becker: You [00:12:15] work from there. I mean, I think it was branches of a tree at the end. That’s where you start, and it sets you off along the right route at the end [00:12:20] of the day, and you or the right branch might be more appropriate.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so what sticks out? What sticks out [00:12:25] about that year? And like, what did you learn that year?

Mark Becker: I remember the stories that [00:12:30] happened. I mean, I was down in Stockwell. I remember my first day in practice. I [00:12:35] mean, it’s not a learning experience, but I remember turning to a patient and saying, [00:12:40] when was the last time you went to a dentist? He goes, ten years. And I said, why has it been so [00:12:45] long? He says, well, I’ve been away. And I turned around very maturely and said, why have you been [00:12:50] away that long? He says, where have you been? He goes detained at Her Majesty’s pleasure. Oh, this [00:12:55] is his first day. That’s how. That’s how green I was behind the ears. And, um, you know, [00:13:00] people turning up with hammers, knocking them on the door because, um, they were tracking down the [00:13:05] gentleman who was having an affair with their wife. And, uh, you know, the stories like that and, [00:13:10] um, panic alarms at the door. And, you know, although my favourite story was the, [00:13:15] uh. Yeah. I haven’t thought this in years. My favourite story was the, [00:13:20] uh, nothing to do with dentistry. Those were the fun ones. Um, the gentleman who was [00:13:25] basically CID came round and he’d left [00:13:30] his dental appointment card in the back of the getaway vehicle, and they [00:13:35] came and arrested him at the surgery. It actually happened a couple of months before I got there. I waited [00:13:40] for his appointment and literally came out of the appointment. Was arrested.

Payman Langroudi: How funny. Yeah.

Mark Becker: But, uh, that [00:13:45] that was that was an interesting stories.

Payman Langroudi: So then what did you do? A couple of associate jobs, [00:13:50] so I.

Mark Becker: So the first couple of years, I literally was the handyman who fell [00:13:55] in, you know, whenever dad’s surgery was empty. You know, there’s a job in Luton. We’ve got dentists [00:14:00] that you need to go up to Luton today and work in Luton for the day.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, filling in all those.

Mark Becker: Places, filling in so [00:14:05] and in in many ways it was a great experience. That was after my. So the uh, South [00:14:10] uh, was um Stockwell and learnt a lot there. Um, [00:14:15] interesting place to work. Um, but after that 2 or 3 years, I [00:14:20] was literally running in, filling in. It might be Putney one day and Tring the next.

Payman Langroudi: And I [00:14:25] bet you learnt a load.

Mark Becker: Yeah. Because all different types of communities and different types of people and different types of dentists [00:14:30] as well. So you learnt a lot and the staff were all different and you went from everyone, [00:14:35] you know, different. One practice where they’d be talking about their summer holidays. They’re going on to [00:14:40] another practice where they’re discussing their mate. John’s just been done for GBH [00:14:45] and, um, you know, and everything in between. Everything in between you’d meet. So, yeah, it was [00:14:50] a great learning experience. Didn’t appreciate it at the time. At the time it was just quite a different surgeries to go [00:14:55] to. And I’ve got to remember all the names and you know where. Where’d you moved out.

Payman Langroudi: At this point? Were you, were you living [00:15:00] with your parents?

Mark Becker: No, no, I’d moved out. I was living in Maida Vale. So, uh, talking [00:15:05] about life’s regrets, though. Don’t sell property if you don’t have to. I had a lovely apartment [00:15:10] in Maida Vale. We sold. Um, yeah. And I’ve noticed.

Payman Langroudi: Every time I’ve sold a property, I’ve then [00:15:15] gone and bought a very similar property 3 or 4 years down the line, and regretted.

Mark Becker: Selling the first one.

Payman Langroudi: Might as well [00:15:20] have just kept that first one. Exactly.

Mark Becker: Yeah. So, yeah, try not to sell property if you can help it. Yeah. [00:15:25]

Payman Langroudi: Um, but so where did the career go next.

Mark Becker: So the career. So [00:15:30] with my, my dad wanted to set me up, you know, like a father worrying about his son. So [00:15:35] he he got me involved in a new surgery they were buying. There was a [00:15:40] friend of his who was always looking at surgeries, and they [00:15:45] came up with this practice in Islip and they got me to run it there. [00:15:50] And that was an interesting experience because I was quite young. I was only about 4 or 5 years [00:15:55] experience when I was running a dental surgery with five associates there, um, where we built [00:16:00] it up. I built it up to five associates. When I took over. There were three partners there originally, and there were more [00:16:05] rooms and availability. So we had a was it mixed? It was it was NHS at the time we took [00:16:10] over, it was NHS. And then that’s when the inverted commas new contract came out. And [00:16:15] I just looked at it and I thought this just isn’t workable. And one of the things that really [00:16:20] wound me up and one of life’s things that I found unfair, was that if you were [00:16:25] an ethical dentist, you made much less money, you got paid a lot less. So [00:16:30] we were offered, I think it was £16 a UDA and I know the guys down the road were [00:16:35] on £32 on UDA and I’m like, what? We’re doing the same thing as them. Yeah. And I and that’s [00:16:40] when I just literally chucked the towel in for NHS. I said I’m not doing it. I took the whole practice [00:16:45] private with it. We kept a kids contract as you could in those days, and we went private and we and everyone [00:16:50] was like, you know, I’ve got to say, there was a few sleepless nights, to say the least. Yeah. And we lost some [00:16:55] patients. But you know, what’s the ratio? Did you did you.

Payman Langroudi: Go with them plan or someone to sort of hold [00:17:00] your hand in that.

Mark Becker: Process. Start with then plan and and and funnily enough I’ve [00:17:05] just left them this week for the first time. I’ve gone to practice back then.

Payman Langroudi: Plan, then plan was the only. [00:17:10]

Mark Becker: Yeah, it was the only game in town. Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: I remember, I remember at practice I was working at that [00:17:15] did the exact same thing. But you know, there’s going to be someone or lots of people listening to this who [00:17:20] are in mixed practices. I apologise.

Mark Becker: Now then.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, but mixed practices and have had enough. [00:17:25]

Mark Becker: So the truth is, you know, we don’t as dentists in this country, my personal opinion, [00:17:30] we don’t really value ourselves. And I think it comes down to and I’ll probably [00:17:35] get some hate mail off the back of this, the NHS and the problem with healthcare in this country, [00:17:40] as far as I’m concerned, is we all grew up not so true now, but we grew up at a [00:17:45] time where it was pretty much free. Yeah. And it was free. And the problem with giving patients [00:17:50] something that it’s not really free, they’re paying for it in their taxes, but the perception is it’s free. [00:17:55] So if someone comes in and they’re paying, I think the maximum charge for treatment is £200 [00:18:00] or something at the time, if I remember correctly. You know, if that’s the value that is applied to it, [00:18:05] then there is no value to the person receiving it, and there’s also no value to the person [00:18:10] who’s providing it. And therefore I think we undervalue ourselves because [00:18:15] of the way we all grew up with this inverted comma free system, which, [00:18:20] you know, just undermines, you know, how we feel about ourselves and how we value [00:18:25] ourselves. And it’s very difficult to move away from that very large, [00:18:30] embracing system that controlled our lives. And it’s a scary thing to move away from. [00:18:35] I think what people have to understand is that, you know, you’re valued more by your patients [00:18:40] than you think you are.

Mark Becker: Mhm. Um, and you have to have a leap of faith at some point [00:18:45] because you can’t be tied to a, to a paymaster who [00:18:50] doesn’t respect you at the end of the day. Yeah. And you know, whatever they say, they’ve never really [00:18:55] made up for the loss of our salaries. Patients don’t understand the difference [00:19:00] between how medicine is funded and how dentistry is funded. They don’t know that. You know, [00:19:05] you’re taking a mortgage against your personal home to finance your [00:19:10] surgery at the end of the day. And when you tell patients that they look at you like they’re mad because they honestly [00:19:15] believe. And if you ask your patients, they honestly believe that whatever money they give you goes straight into your [00:19:20] pocket. The dentist owns everything. So you know that £600 for a crown [00:19:25] or whatever it was, you know, that goes straight in there. They don’t know anything about lab bills? They don’t know anything about [00:19:30] the CQC compliance. They don’t know about your materials, your equipment. They don’t know. There’s no reason why they should. It’s never [00:19:35] explained to them. Yeah. And if they if they could understand that, they’d probably have a little bit more understanding [00:19:40] of the situation we’re in at the end of the day.

Payman Langroudi: But let’s talk about let’s say I’ve had [00:19:45] enough. I want to leave. I want to go all private top tips, because [00:19:50] I’ve seen that process a few times. And I’d say one. One top tip is [00:19:55] start making the place better before making that jump so that your [00:20:00] patients.

Mark Becker: Start to see something.

Payman Langroudi: Different. Yeah. So your patients start to feel really lucky to be treated in a place like. [00:20:05]

Mark Becker: Sure, they’re seen on time as well.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. Yeah. To make everything better before the jump.

Mark Becker: Yeah. You’ve [00:20:10] got you’ve got to, you know, give them something to understand why you’re suddenly charging [00:20:15] them more, why you’re leaving it. I’d try and avoid the word private. I try and use the word independent [00:20:20] rather than private. Private has pretty bad. I remember those days as well. Yeah. So I [00:20:25] try and stay away from that. But, um, and.

Payman Langroudi: Take your staff with you.

Mark Becker: So, no, if you don’t [00:20:30] have your staff with you, then you might as well just shut shop because you’re going to go nowhere. I mean, really important, right? If [00:20:35] you can’t keep your nurse and you can’t keep your hygienist and you can’t keep your receptionist. No, but.

Payman Langroudi: What I mean is [00:20:40] mentally, psychologically, your staff have to be 100%.

Mark Becker: On board in if they don’t buy in, [00:20:45] you know, your staff have to understand it. You will get a person, you know, one of the staff who you know will have [00:20:50] a moral and ethical grounds, and you have to just sit down and maybe explain to them, listen, [00:20:55] I don’t want to pay you a decent salary, and I can only do that if I’m making the living [00:21:00] to do that at the end. We want to do decent work.

Payman Langroudi: We want to be.

Mark Becker: Proud of what we do.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the key thing, isn’t it? [00:21:05]

Mark Becker: You know, you’ve got to have pride in what you do. I mean, I lose contact when I still if I miss a contact point, [00:21:10] I’ll lose sleep over it. It really bothers me, you know, and I, [00:21:15] I know it sounds silly, but that’s, you know, the nature of the beast. At the end of the day. [00:21:20]

Payman Langroudi: I think so many people will relate to that.

Mark Becker: It’s just and you see other stuff that you see coming a lot of the time. [00:21:25] Some work done abroad and you see what’s been done and you think, and I lose sleep over a contact point, you [00:21:30] know, really and you know, and some of it and stuff. And that’s always the frustrating [00:21:35] thing about dentistry is you know that endo you know, you look at it and you think, how was that dentist not struck off? [00:21:40] And the patient says to you, it was done 40 years ago and it’s never bothered me. And you’ve got that beautiful [00:21:45] one done by you or a specialist, and you’re proud of it or impressed with what the specialist did. And [00:21:50] they go, yeah, there’s five canals and one’s like an S shape. And you think, how do you do that? It’s brilliant. [00:21:55] And the patient goes, yeah, but it bothers me every day. And you’re like, you roll your eyes and you think, oh really? [00:22:00] That’s that’s that’s the that’s the that’s the job we’re in.

Payman Langroudi: Not not to mention no [00:22:05] one’s looking over your shoulder. Not even not even the nurse. Well, [00:22:10] yeah. So.

Mark Becker: So it’s your own. It’s your own compass. It’s your own moral compass.

Payman Langroudi: It’s your own professionalism. [00:22:15] And at the end of the day, we called the profession for a reason. Right? It’s what happens when no one’s looking. But [00:22:20] but you know, the you can take it to the nth degree, right? You can [00:22:25] check every every contact point. Every every matrix can be perfect. Every wedge can [00:22:30] be perfect. And then you’ll find someone else who does even more than you do.

Mark Becker: Oh, absolutely. There’s, you [00:22:35] know, there’s always someone better. Yeah. There’s always a.

Payman Langroudi: Question. My question, though, is [00:22:40] this podcast has been brought to you by Mini Smile Makeover. Mini smile makeovers are two day anterior [00:22:45] composite course led by the extraordinary talented doctor Dipesh Palmer. Two [00:22:50] days of full on, hands on composite training. Purely focussed on anterior [00:22:55] work composite veneers, polishing, finishing, shade matching. You also get a free [00:23:00] enlightened kit on that course. Plus we have a great time and a party in the middle. Find out [00:23:05] the dates. Mini smile makeover.com. Now let’s get back to the podcast. How do you keep [00:23:10] up to date and keep interested enough to keep up to date technology? Are you [00:23:15] driven by that?

Mark Becker: Yeah, I’m driven by by technology and buying the latest [00:23:20] kit and going on courses and understanding and moving on and I because lots of people [00:23:25] stagnate.

Payman Langroudi: Right?

Mark Becker: Well, well that’s interesting because my my back to my father, my father’s generation, you know, you [00:23:30] qualified in the 60s and that’s type of where you stopped and you were working in [00:23:35] the in the 90s and you were still doing 60s dentistry. Yeah. And even today there’s a couple of dentists who retired [00:23:40] who have got fantastic hands. Their work is amazing. I mean, but you look at the mouth and you [00:23:45] think, well, those amalgams were, you know, that’s what people were doing in the 60s and 70s and they’re still providing them. [00:23:50] Now, don’t get me wrong, they last well, but you look at and think, well, there are other things that can be done for patients [00:23:55] these days. And patients haven’t been given the options.

Payman Langroudi: But but the difference between someone who’s staying in [00:24:00] touch and do you use rubber dam for instance? I don’t not.

Mark Becker: Use rubber dam. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well I mean.

Mark Becker: If I [00:24:05] all my my nurse laughs I mean I even been known to do my preps under rubber [00:24:10] dam. Yeah. So you know I just find it’s more pleasant for the patients.

Payman Langroudi: But so what I’m saying is some people [00:24:15] will continue to keep on changing their behaviour, continue to learn. I [00:24:20] don’t know, maybe start using loops when they didn’t used to before scanners. Just everything [00:24:25] that’s new. There is so much some people won’t at all. It makes it.

Mark Becker: So much more enjoyable. [00:24:30] Yeah, it really does. I mean, I bought a [00:24:35] scanner. I’m trying to blank on the name. Um, no, actually, I’m buying a [00:24:40] nightmare at the moment. I’ve got a three shape at the moment, and I bought it during Covid [00:24:45] and my wife wasn’t impressed. It was like spending money. And I said, is she.

Payman Langroudi: Involved [00:24:50] in the practice?

Mark Becker: No, no. But she’s like, wants to know what’s going on at the end of the day, you know, buying an expensive piece [00:24:55] of kit, she’s going to want to know. Um, and she’s very supportive. Yeah. And I remember [00:25:00] buying it during Covid. And I said to her, look, the problem is that if I don’t buy it now, [00:25:05] when I can sit down, play with the equipment, learn how to use it once the surgery [00:25:10] opens up again, I’m going to be mad busy again and I don’t have time to sit down. [00:25:15] So I took it as an opportunity, you know, to [00:25:20] to learn something new. And I was always very much against it. I was like, well, how do you [00:25:25] get your margins subgingival margins, you know, what are you going to do with a post core? And you know, all [00:25:30] that type, those questions that, you know, some things you just can’t do with your scanner, you just need to get [00:25:35] your heavy body impression.

Payman Langroudi: Is that the answer? And say.

Mark Becker: Yeah. Is that the answer? That’s the answer. Sometimes you have to know what [00:25:40] the equipment, what your what it’s going to work for. At the end of the day, there are certain things where the preps to [00:25:45] subgingival you’re doing a post core and crown. Well, you can’t get that with a scan. Um, [00:25:50] you know, I’m sure someone will come up with some type of implant related post to put down, or [00:25:55] something will happen, but not at the moment. And you just have to get your heavy body out and take take [00:26:00] your impression and hope you haven’t forgotten your techniques too much.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about Ruislip. [00:26:05] So then what? What made you sort of shut that one down or sell it and move on? [00:26:10]

Mark Becker: So Ruislip became um, it was [00:26:15] a large practice. I had five, 4 or 5 associates, two hygienists, a [00:26:20] surgeon coming in, and it became I enjoy dentistry, I don’t enjoy the business of dentistry. [00:26:25] And I found it was I found it too distracting for me that [00:26:30] I wasn’t doing what I wanted to do, which was at the coalface, and the [00:26:35] practice prices were going up at that point. And I thought, you know what? Let’s let’s put it on the market. [00:26:40] And I got a nice number for it. And I took some time off, and then I got very [00:26:45] bored playing golf with people 20 or 30 years older than me. Um, and uh, realising [00:26:50] that actually you’ve got to get back to dentistry because I was missing it. How old were you there? Uh, 42, [00:26:55] 43, something like that.

Payman Langroudi: She had it for a good few years.

Mark Becker: Yeah, I had rice for a while. [00:27:00] I had it for ten years or so. Ten, 12 years, something like that.

Payman Langroudi: And by the time [00:27:05] you sold it, it was a private.

Mark Becker: So when we sold it, it was a private practice with the children’s contract, and there were still [00:27:10] five instead of three dentists working, there were five dentists working there. So you know that that fear [00:27:15] of jumping out the NHS. Actually, you know, I remember buying the practice and I remember [00:27:20] the appointment books and I it was higher than these microphones. It was thick. There were five minute appointment books. [00:27:25] Literally they were booking on the five minutes. And I just looked at like, oh, this is absolutely madness. They [00:27:30] also didn’t they also didn’t take credit cards. It was cheque and cash only. And this was this [00:27:35] is like the early 1990s. It’s not like, you know, in the 60s or something. They didn’t [00:27:40] take they didn’t have a credit card machine. And I thought this is all madness. So first thing that came in was a credit card machine or a debit machine, [00:27:45] and then get rid of these five minute diaries. They were so big, you just had to you could only have so many reception. [00:27:50] They just took up so much room. I don’t think you could buy those anymore. I remember those they were. You wanted. [00:27:55] You didn’t need to go to the gym. You just pick these things up and, you know, you get your work up. Lifting the five minute [00:28:00] diary up so that that went out the window and we went to a [00:28:05] computer as well. And I think it was I think it was called Arthur, the original system rather than Arthur. It [00:28:10] was Arthur. Yeah, yeah. And we had that. And um.

Payman Langroudi: So you sold it. You’re now [00:28:15] playing golf, getting bored?

Mark Becker: Yes. And, um, decided a [00:28:20] friend of mine who’s a doctor, um, said to me, you know, I was telling him I was getting a bit bored, and he said, well, go and [00:28:25] talk to these doctors who were just opening up a private medical centre called Chase Lodge Hospital, [00:28:30] which was in, uh, not far from where I was living at the time. And my kids were at school around the [00:28:35] corner. So I thought, this is fantastic. So I can go and work there, and I can go and watch my kids play rugby [00:28:40] or football or whatever the game they’re playing. And I opened up a squat and [00:28:45] I remember the first day, the first week I had one patient booked in and, um, [00:28:50] the patient phones up and says, you know, I’m terribly sorry. I’ve got to move the appointment. [00:28:55] When are you available? You know, have you got any availability? I said, oh, let me have a look. I’ll see what [00:29:00] I can find. When would suit you? And funnily enough, I was available when you could come in. Um, [00:29:05] but. Yeah. And I built that up gradually. And, you know, one [00:29:10] of the difficult things I found this was a life lesson. It sounds silly, but [00:29:15] I remember having to give a patient having to swallow your pride [00:29:20] a little bit when he opened a new practice. Or if you go private and sends the patient and say, look, here’s [00:29:25] my card, you’re happy with what I’ve done? Yeah, please recommend me. You know that. You [00:29:30] know, you find that.

Payman Langroudi: Hard to do. I found that.

Mark Becker: Really hard to do initially. The first ten, 20 times. Really [00:29:35] hard to swallow my pride. I need your I need my patient’s help to build my practice. Yeah. And [00:29:40] like, please recommend me. And you know, patients generally most of them want to help [00:29:45] you. Most of them are good people. You get the occasional one who will turn around and say, well, why would I do that? Because I don’t want them to be busy when [00:29:50] I want to come and see you and you roll your eyes and think, well, I might not be here with, I won’t have a business if I don’t have any [00:29:55] other patients. So, um, but most patients are lovely.

Payman Langroudi: And I think that that process, [00:30:00] I mean, when you look at people building practices, the process of asking for reviews and. [00:30:05] Yeah, I know what you mean about the sort of the distasteful nature of it or [00:30:10] somehow implying that you’re not very busy. But on the other hand, like you say, [00:30:15] people want to help people that they trust and like. I mean, sometimes.

Mark Becker: You read the reviews and [00:30:20] you think, whoa, thank you. I mean, that’s a bit over the top. But, you know, that’s how they felt at the [00:30:25] end of the day. And we’re not paying them for the review. And people, the truth is most people are [00:30:30] nice. Yeah. Most people are good people. And because it reminds me of you talking about [00:30:35] student times, I remember that you probably had a similar lecture that, you know, the defence unions come [00:30:40] in to give you a lecture before you qualify. They put a great big picture up of Oxford Street at the Christmas sales, [00:30:45] and they go in there. Someone’s going to make your life miserable. You don’t know which one it’s going to be. Yeah. [00:30:50] And we’ve all got those patients where you see them in your diary and you think, do I want to take a sickie [00:30:55] today? Really? And the amazing thing is they always manage to, you know, you might have four out of 4000 patients. [00:31:00] And those four patients like they they get on the WhatsApp said, let’s go and make Mark’s life difficult today. We’ll all [00:31:05] turn up on the same day. Yeah. And it’s just amazing. They all pitch up on the same day. Those four difficult patients. [00:31:10]

Payman Langroudi: And, uh. But so, look, we before we were talking about as the [00:31:15] technology changes, some people keep up, some people don’t, some people like it, some people don’t. But [00:31:20] as everything else changes. So for instance, this thing on reviews, stuff [00:31:25] on CQC, stuff, you know, all that stuff’s changing. Look. And you’ve been through [00:31:30] it over, what, 30 years? Yeah.

Mark Becker: I mean for me enlightened is a great example. Yeah. Yeah. I [00:31:35] mean I traditionally haven’t done a lot of whitening. I mean, you know, how many I do and [00:31:40] you do a lot I know, but I traditionally haven’t. Yeah. And the reason I traditionally [00:31:45] haven’t was the system I did I was one of the first to get the bright smile machine, the pod when [00:31:50] it first came out. And I was there till 12:00 at night, you know, literally patients stacked [00:31:55] up to do it and relaunched the same.

Payman Langroudi: Day as them back, back in 2001.

Mark Becker: Okay. So [00:32:00] um, and then they had um, then there was a zoom [00:32:05] came out and you get the odd patient who still wants to isn’t going to use trays, and you just have to accept [00:32:10] it and you keep the machine there for the odd case. And then there was the biolase one as well. Um, do [00:32:15] you have a laser? Yeah, I have, yeah. I was one of the first people involved with lasers as well. So I’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Got [00:32:20] hard tissue.

Mark Becker: As well as the water laser. And by the epic ten year. Oh, both. Yeah. So. [00:32:25] Yeah. So, yeah, I’ve had them for a while, although I’m lucky I’ve got a periodontist on my team [00:32:30] now who uses a lot of laser, so it’s getting more use than it normally does to be honest. There was a [00:32:35] short period of time where I was sitting there as a cup of tea holder, but, uh. But I know [00:32:40] it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Used a lot. Crown lengthening with the laser.

Mark Becker: Crown lengthening with laser. Yeah. Um, a lot of perio [00:32:45] stuff with laser. Um, yeah. I mean, I find that [00:32:50] particularly useful on your margins, but whenever you’re doing a, you know, a little bit of, um, troughing. [00:32:55] So no more electric surge at all. I gave my electric surge to my surgeon many years ago. [00:33:00] Oh, really? Yeah. I just gave it to my surgeon. I just haven’t touched it in. I used to use. I used to use electrosurgery [00:33:05] a lot. Terrible smell. Um, but, um, you know, I gave that up as soon as I had a laser. [00:33:10] I haven’t looked back. And the lasers are great. I mean, I know a lot of dentists. Pooh Pooh them, but I’ve [00:33:15] seen some fantastic results with them. Really fantastic.

Payman Langroudi: If you know what you’re doing. Yeah, well, it’s like everything else. [00:33:20]

Mark Becker: Well, it’s. Again, back to, you know, something’s working in your hands and some things don’t. You’ve just got to know the protocols and you’ve got to [00:33:25] be able to, you know. Blend with it almost that it works in your hands.

Payman Langroudi: So for, [00:33:30] for a for a crown lengthening. Does only the periodontist take care of that. Would you do that.

Mark Becker: Well I’ve got to pay down some stuff [00:33:35] so you know why not.

Payman Langroudi: He’s there the whole time, is he.

Mark Becker: Oh [00:33:40] no no no no, she’s there a couple of days a month.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So she’s always available.

Mark Becker: Yeah, she’s always [00:33:45] available.

Payman Langroudi: So we might as well. Fast forward quickly to what’s the setup right now.

Mark Becker: So [00:33:50] we’ve literally been there six months. Yeah. It’s been a very there’s [00:33:55] a real big learning curve moving into a shopping centre because the landlords don’t [00:34:00] understand the difference between a retailer and a healthcare practitioner. [00:34:05] Yeah. And they are very different. I mean, silly things like the Brent Cross Shopping Centre wouldn’t let me put anything [00:34:10] on their windows to obscure. But CQC needed the the reception [00:34:15] area, the sitting area there blocked out. So you end up making a compromise that doesn’t look brilliant and you [00:34:20] do the best you can at the end. Silly things like that. And there was a lot of silly things like that. Um, [00:34:25] but now we’ve got two associates coming in. They do three days between them. I’ve [00:34:30] got a periodontal staff. I have an implantology starting as well. Um, and, you [00:34:35] know, it’s, um, it’s growing. It’s it’s still every day you see patients like the [00:34:40] dentist in Brent Cross. It’s like they just don’t know. It’s not. It’s more of an American model than a UK [00:34:45] model, but for patient convenience. And we were talking earlier about, you know, looking for [00:34:50] the right site to relocate my surgery to. It was just a shot in the dark, sitting with a friend [00:34:55] in a car, literally saying, you know, after being depressed by looking at so many not [00:35:00] awful but unsuitable premises when I was looking to relocate, [00:35:05] you know. The main thing is parking. Your patients want to be able to park somewhere. And I said as a joke [00:35:10] to him, I said, you know, someone should open up in Brent Cross. And he literally picked up his wife, didn’t pick up his phone, he speed [00:35:15] dialled them on the on the car phone, and he happened to know the person who was involved with Brent Cross. [00:35:20] And that’s how I got fortunate to do it. But negotiations with the landlord are very difficult. They [00:35:25] just don’t get it. Um, as in.

Payman Langroudi: What costs are higher? If costs.

Mark Becker: Are, costs [00:35:30] are definitely higher.

Payman Langroudi: And you have to jump through hoops loads. As in what? Prove prove [00:35:35] that you’re going to look a certain way and be a certain way.

Mark Becker: Or there was just there were so many [00:35:40] hoops that, you know, my brain just is like, put them in a corner of my mind, put a [00:35:45] lock the key away and said, don’t open that box again and don’t think about it because, you know, they [00:35:50] didn’t make it easy. The legal stuff, I mean it just backwards and forwards, the same [00:35:55] questions and, you know, saying we can’t do that. We’re a dental surgery. And they’re going, but [00:36:00] you know, they always wanted mannequins in the window. I mean, we’re dancers. You wouldn’t be [00:36:05] up in the window, I mean.

Payman Langroudi: And is there a massive footfall they’ve got?

Mark Becker: Yeah. The footfall for [00:36:10] breakfast is large. Um it is. Yeah. There’s, there’s, there is a significant [00:36:15] footfall.

Payman Langroudi: So are there loads of people compared to a normal.

Mark Becker: Oh no. We get lots of [00:36:20] walk ins. Actually the biggest walk in thing is for the hygienists. Uh, direct access for the hygienist [00:36:25] is, is is big. We will have 3 or 4 patients a day for that sometimes. And they translate.

Payman Langroudi: To [00:36:30] patients in the end. Right.

Mark Becker: They will eventually. We’re only six months in. So, you know, we’ve seen a few of them transfer [00:36:35] over and you know, but that that takes time. And, you know, it’s a snowball [00:36:40] effect building a surgery. You’ve just got to, you know, keep people happy and make sure you give your cards out. [00:36:45] And I do moan at my associates, you know, if your patients are happy, give them your card. Yeah. You know, they’ve [00:36:50] got brothers, they’ve got sisters, they’ve got relatives, they’ve got friends, they’ve got family. You know, if they’re happy with you, [00:36:55] let them spread, let them talk about you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, I had someone here, he said. [00:37:00] He’s got a very successful West End practice, and he said the whole thing, [00:37:05] he puts down to one patient from the Qatari embassy or something. [00:37:10] One patient, he says without that one patient, none of this would happen. Because he blew [00:37:15] the socks off one person. That guy sent him another ten. And then the thing the ten.

Mark Becker: Did they send you another [00:37:20] ten each?

Payman Langroudi: The thing built up the importance of that relationship with each patient who’s really [00:37:25] happy with you. You can’t underestimate. Especially if you’re trying to build something. Right.

Mark Becker: Look, you’ve [00:37:30] got to love what you’re doing. You’ve got to really care for your patients as well. You’ve got to really, you know, be [00:37:35] sensible with things. You know, things. Sometimes things don’t go wrong. Own that. You know, if [00:37:40] something doesn’t go right on your patient’s mouth at any dentist who ever tells me I never get any [00:37:45] problems, nothing ever goes wrong. Nonsense. You know, if you’re not having problems, then you’re not doing anything because [00:37:50] there’s always something that’s not going to go right. You’re not going to explain something right to the patient. You know that [00:37:55] deep feeling? Well, I forgot to warn that it might turn into a root treatment. You know, it’s the old [00:38:00] story. If you tell the patient at the time and you say, look, and and one of the biggest things for me [00:38:05] is photos. I photograph everything, you know. So my patients can see you tell them what you want. But if you can [00:38:10] show them a photograph, you know, show them the deep feeling. Show them where the decay was. Show them where the nerve was. Showed them. She’s [00:38:15] a.

Payman Langroudi: Real camera. Intraoral intraoral.

Mark Becker: Camera. It’s just a nice, quick, easy. Gives everything. [00:38:20] I think probably of all the expensive stuff I have in my surgery, the internal camera is probably the [00:38:25] most important thing because if you can show your patients, it’s like taking your car in, you know, [00:38:30] to the service, and they suck in air and they, they twist their head over and and [00:38:35] you don’t know what they’re talking about at the end of the day. And you know, you know, it’s all you know is how much they’re asking you for. [00:38:40] But if you can sit down and you can sit down with your patient and you can show them the picture, look, this filling, you [00:38:45] see the big crack through the filling here that’s leaking. That’s going to cause a problem. I’d rather deal with it now before it caused you root treatment. [00:38:50] If it’s a deep filling, take the photographs or take 3 or 4 photographs. I probably take 20 photographs. [00:38:55] For every filling I do, I delete 12 of them, probably, or 16 of them, and I keep the poignant ones. [00:39:00] But the patient can see what’s going on. If the patient understands you, tell them beforehand, look, there’s a chance [00:39:05] this is going to give you a problem. If it does, I’d rather not treat it. Now, if you come back in pain, then [00:39:10] unfortunately, you know we’re going to have to do a treatment, but I’d rather give it the chance of healing, you know. And [00:39:15] please don’t be upset if it comes back. Please just here’s my number. Just call me if there’s a problem. You know, all my patients [00:39:20] have my WhatsApp number. I don’t look at my phone all the time, but it’s a problem. Just give me a call. You know, [00:39:25] WhatsApp me. Say, Mark, does it feel right?

Payman Langroudi: Amazing how people respect that as well. The mobile number [00:39:30] thing.

Mark Becker: That.

Payman Langroudi: I give my mobile number to every enlightened user, I never get called. Very rarely. [00:39:35] Very people think that, you know, overstepping because you.

Mark Becker: Remind me to get your number at the end.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:39:40] in the training. But okay, [00:39:45] so those those basics, right. The basics of treat people well. Be a professional. [00:39:50] Tell me the basics of running teams staff.

Mark Becker: You’ve [00:39:55] got to be prepared to to bring your staff with you on the journey. [00:40:00] You’ve got to keep them happy. You’ve got to listen to them as well. Because the my, [00:40:05] my nurse the other day I was busy, you know, treating a patient and she said, you know, she gets the fat [00:40:10] out and she says, well try this, you know. And I was busy talking and I noticed I hadn’t [00:40:15] actually thought about it. I was some new product I was going to use on the patient, and I tried it. And you [00:40:20] know what? The patient was delighted. It was a great improvement. And, you know, you’d be amazed at what your nurses and your and your [00:40:25] staff know. I mean, most of them are clever, clever people. You know, they’re switched on. [00:40:30] They want to help. They they want to be involved. They’re massively experienced. And, [00:40:35] you know, if you think you can remember everything and do everything well, I’m sorry to upset [00:40:40] you and burst that bubble. You can’t, you know, you need a decent team around you and you’ve got to treat them [00:40:45] with respect. You’ve got to look after them and you have to listen to what they say.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I remember my first proper [00:40:50] associate job after. And the boss was very clever, insomuch [00:40:55] as he said to shadow for a couple of weeks before starting the job, [00:41:00] the guy who was going to leave. I know that this guy was a brilliant dentist. I hope he’s a brilliant [00:41:05] dentist and another South African trained guy. And [00:41:10] in that two weeks, I honestly learned more than I did in the whole of it because this guy was just so brilliant. But [00:41:15] then the nurse, when I started working, the nurse started pointing things out [00:41:20] and saying, you should be doing more crowns. And I just hadn’t, you know, hadn’t figured [00:41:25] in my head like, you know, I was doing these heroic restorations, right. And, [00:41:30] you know, the simple cues from, from those two people were more valuable than the whole [00:41:35] of it for me.

Mark Becker: But but you can say that also about how many times have you gone on a days lecture, [00:41:40] and you sit there and you listen to the I am dentist telling you I did this and I did that. [00:41:45] Yeah. And they they sit preaching to you and I, you know, I remember [00:41:50] one course I don’t remember. I don’t even remember what the course was on. But I do remember at lunch time I sat [00:41:55] down with a couple of dentists, and the one dentist turned to us and said, gagging patients, [00:42:00] salt on the tip of your tongue. What? There you go. Get [00:42:05] a patient who gags when you put a film in their mouth. Yeah. Put a little salt on the tip [00:42:10] of their tongue, and that helps. You’ll be amazed. Nine out of ten times the gagging [00:42:15] stops, whether it’s distraction. But I’ve remembered that from that course. So whatever happened to you? I [00:42:20] don’t even remember what the course was on. I think it was in Holborn or something. I don’t remember what the course. Not a clue what the [00:42:25] course was on, I can’t remember. I remember sitting there having lunch and hearing that, and that’s been a huge, [00:42:30] you know, how often I turn to my nurses to get me some salt and it works nine out of [00:42:35] ten times.

Payman Langroudi: Hit me with another couple of mini tips like that. They were. They were good. Yeah, yeah. What [00:42:40] else.

Mark Becker: What else, what else, what else, what else?

Payman Langroudi: Little hacks that these.

Mark Becker: Things come off the top of your head.

Payman Langroudi: Little hacks as [00:42:45] you think of them. Tell me. I should do another section called things I hate about Dental courses, [00:42:50] because I’ll tell you my bugbear, where it’s normally it’s someone who’s [00:42:55] who’s like maybe a university guy lecturing. Yeah. And it’s a [00:43:00] title. And then four bullets and he’s literally reading. [00:43:05]

Mark Becker: Yeah. Because I can read as well as you, mate. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, dentistry, one of the most visual [00:43:10] things in the world. Yeah.

Mark Becker: Yeah. And they don’t show you pictures.

Payman Langroudi: It should be pictures, right? It should be only pictures. [00:43:15]

Mark Becker: Should be a picture of the tooth.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mark Becker: And I get that. Does my head.

Payman Langroudi: Teeth. And I think, I think there should [00:43:20] be a bit of technology. I’ve been talking about this for a while. There’s a bit of technology where everyone in the audience has a button. [00:43:25] And if more than 60% of the audience press.

Mark Becker: The button on next lecturer.

Payman Langroudi: Know the slide. [00:43:30] The slide forwards by itself. Yeah. Because how many times have you sat there and you’ve got the point? [00:43:35] Yeah. It’s just time to move it forward. Right? Yeah. It’s.

Mark Becker: Yeah. The old [00:43:40] slide. That’s good. They move on before you can take a photo of it in any case.

Payman Langroudi: There’s that one too. Tell me about [00:43:45] the West End. Reflections on that. Because you were there. For how long?

Mark Becker: About five years. For five years. [00:43:50] So it was, um.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a difficult thing. I mean, people dream of going to the [00:43:55] West End. Was that you? Why did you go there?

Mark Becker: I because I was young and naive and silly. And so [00:44:00] for a similar reason. Yes. You just you just think that’s the be all and end all of everything? Yeah. You [00:44:05] know, we were very, um, West End centric view of things, and.

Payman Langroudi: People don’t realise [00:44:10] the frustrations of it because it’s not a single walk in.

Mark Becker: You don’t get any walk ins. You have nothing. [00:44:15] But I mean, Harold, the warden’s the landlord round there who’s in their way or. No way. I mean, they make [00:44:20] Hammerson look like, you know, Brent Cross, like, look like nice. The nicest guys in the world. Um, [00:44:25] and, um, Hammerson were difficult to deal with. I mean, they actually charged me. Scheduled [00:44:30] a day when it closed down, even though they were gutting the building and renovating [00:44:35] the whole thing. And that was like a massive argument to say, well, you’ve moved. You’ve moved us out. [00:44:40] You still want to charge us for Central Dilapidations even though you’re gutting the building? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:44:45] know, there’s are some tactics that landlords use anyway.

Mark Becker: But, um, no. So the other thing is, I mean, [00:44:50] I always remember, I mean, you throw a brick out of a window in Wimpole Street and you hit a dentist. Yeah. I mean, [00:44:55] there’s just a dime a dozen there. And, you know, there’s definitely a place for West End dentistry. And I think, [00:45:00] you know, there are some fantastic dentists in the West End. But, you know, at the end of the day, [00:45:05] if they were practising in Shoreditch or they were practising in Swiss Cottage [00:45:10] or any other part of London, at the end of the day or the UK, their dentistry is going to be the same. You [00:45:15] know, there’s obviously a difference to the fee. They can control command in [00:45:20] different parts, but their dentistry is not going to change. They’re still the great dentists they were. It doesn’t really matter where they’re [00:45:25] working.

Payman Langroudi: So look the frustrations are no walk ins to many dentists. Howard de Walden. Yeah. What [00:45:30] are the benefits? There must be some benefits. Like you can charge more, right?

Mark Becker: You can charge more. [00:45:35] But, you know, I think it’s it’s a bit like buying a nice car. It’s a vanity [00:45:40] project many times. Yeah. You know, have that nice car. Makes any sense, you know? You know, you [00:45:45] can’t just do vanity projects your whole life. You know, it’s nice to have it. Your ego feels good going [00:45:50] into the West End today to work, you know. And I think a lot of the time it’s a vanity project. It’s [00:45:55] not necessarily, you know, a business, a so much of a valid [00:46:00] business model. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you felt like you weren’t doing well then?

Mark Becker: Well, no, [00:46:05] we were doing okay. We were treading ground. We certainly weren’t setting the world alight, but we were doing okay. And then [00:46:10] Harold Warden wanted to, as I say, they wanted to, um, turn this particular building into residential. [00:46:15] So the alternatives just. I looked at my partner and [00:46:20] I looked at each other at the time and just said, you know what, let’s call it a day. It’s not worth it. [00:46:25] And we did, but we had our other practices to go to work. So it wasn’t the end of the world. [00:46:30]

Payman Langroudi: And you were telling me before that if you had to pinpoint some regrets, [00:46:35] that would be one of them going to. Yeah.

Mark Becker: Going to the West End was probably a regret, because I [00:46:40] turned down the opportunity of buying another practice near Islip, which I should have been [00:46:45] involved with, and I should have concentrated on what I knew and what I [00:46:50] enjoyed at the time, the opportunity. Yeah, I should have done that. And, you know, the dentistry, not [00:46:55] so much now because property prices are so high compared to the relative profitability of dentistry. [00:47:00] But if you, you know, in the 90s, you could still, you know, make enough profit [00:47:05] that you’d actually could pay your building off relatively quickly. And, um, you know, a lot of people [00:47:10] have done well in dentistry, have done well off the back of the properties as well. Yeah. You know, you sell your property at the end [00:47:15] and, you know, a surgeon who just sold in Hendon recently, not [00:47:20] far from where I am. And it’s not a dental surgery anymore. It’s, you know, the value of the property [00:47:25] as a dental surgery is nowhere near what it’s worth as a residential. Mhm. Um, and you know [00:47:30] why, why keep them in, you know where you’re going to sell it. Sell it to residential. Yeah. That’s a [00:47:35] good point. That’s the way it is. Whereas before it used to be very much the other way round. Yeah that’s right. You had a nice income from your dental surgery [00:47:40] but with that, that profit isn’t there of that much anymore.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get [00:47:45] to the darker part of the pod.

Mark Becker: Oh, it sounds evil.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, we [00:47:50] like to talk about mistakes. So based on. Have you read the black [00:47:55] box thinking that.

Mark Becker: You like.

Payman Langroudi: The black box thinking. [00:48:00]

Mark Becker: No.

Payman Langroudi: It’s about plane crashes. Plane crashes. [00:48:05] They go look into why?

Mark Becker: Okay. And they’ve got the black box. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Look at the black box. But [00:48:10] what they do is they share with the whole pilot community the findings. Okay. [00:48:15] And no one’s ever to blame. And it’s just the whole point of it is to learn from [00:48:20] each other.

Mark Becker: And make accidents less likely to.

Payman Langroudi: Happen, make accidents less likely to happen. But in in medical. And it actually [00:48:25] does. It segues into medical and it says in medical. Generally blame [00:48:30] is the first thing that people are looking at because blame is the first thing.

Mark Becker: Blame the lawyers for that. [00:48:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. But but you know, there’s plenty of lawyers in aviation too. It’s just I think it’s more like [00:48:40] a cultural issue, because blame is such a big thing. In medical. We tend to hide [00:48:45] our mistakes, run away from our mistakes, then we don’t all learn from each other’s [00:48:50] mistakes.

Mark Becker: And so there’s an embarrassment. There’s a embarrassment.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly.

Mark Becker: You know, you [00:48:55] know, anyone who I think I said this earlier on, anyone who says they they’ve never made a mistake as a dentist, [00:49:00] you know.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. We don’t accept that response.

Mark Becker: It’s nonsense.

Payman Langroudi: So to buck the trend, tell me, give me, give me [00:49:05] what comes to mind when I say clinical error.

Mark Becker: Clinical error? Yeah. [00:49:10] Probably the one that always brings to mind was an Invisalign case. And [00:49:15] I should have used elastics and I didn’t. And the occlusion just wasn’t right at the end. [00:49:20] And you know, I had to I had to hand hold my hand up to the patient and say, you know what? I [00:49:25] just haven’t got this one right. And I had to take my cap in hand to my local orthodontist [00:49:30] and say, Mr. Orthodontist, I need your help here, please. And he he was [00:49:35] very nice about it. He charged me to fix it, which he’s entitled to do. And I paid him myself out of your [00:49:40] own pocket and my own pocket. I paid it out of my own pockets, which was more than I got paid for the Invisalign case. But it’s a [00:49:45] learning case. Yeah. So, you know, I’ve been I was doing Invisalign from. I was in the first training group in the UK [00:49:50] at Heathrow Airport when it first came here. Wow. And, um, that’s one of my regrets. Be [00:49:55] a bit more careful what you take on. But as I’ve got older, generally.

Payman Langroudi: Did you know you didn’t like [00:50:00] you were going wrong or you had no idea? You didn’t know what? No, no, I.

Mark Becker: Didn’t get to the end of treatment and realise I [00:50:05] could see halfway through this was going wrong. You know, the occlusion, the teeth we had slip here, we had some [00:50:10] slippage here and it just wasn’t right.

Payman Langroudi: And you didn’t know what.

Mark Becker: To do with it? No. Just didn’t know how to do it. And my head’s [00:50:15] thinking, you know what? I’m not going to bs the patient. I just told the patient this isn’t going right. And I wanted to see an orthodontist. [00:50:20] And I said, you don’t have to put your hand in your pocket. I’ll deal with it. And it was done.

Payman Langroudi: How was the patient? [00:50:25]

Mark Becker: Patient was, I think, the patient the patient was fine about it. But I think part of that’s because I was [00:50:30] brutally honest saying it’s gone wrong in my hands. And and the very [00:50:35] words I said to her was, I’m going to put this right at my expense. You don’t have to worry about that. I’m not sending it to [00:50:40] making you pay the bill again. So I think that’s allowed it. And I think she was a reasonable [00:50:45] person as well. And, you know, that allowed us to deal with that situation. Um, but I [00:50:50] think honesty is, you know, where it has to start at the end of the day. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, that’s a good story, but I don’t like [00:50:55] it insomuch as it went very well. How about one that didn’t go very well, huh? [00:51:00]

Mark Becker: Is there any wood to touch [00:51:05] around here? You touch it.

Payman Langroudi: You’re touching it right now.

Mark Becker: No, I generally [00:51:10] I’ve been fortunate.

Payman Langroudi: Well, okay.

Mark Becker: Maybe so it doesn’t have.

Payman Langroudi: To be a mistake. It doesn’t have to be. Who is your most [00:51:15] difficult patient? What comes to mind when I say that.

Mark Becker: Is, I [00:51:20] just saw a member of their family today. So I’ve got a patient, highly educated. [00:51:25] Yeah. Highly educated. You know, sometimes a bit of education is a bit dangerous. [00:51:30] So, you know, and someone who likes to apportion blame. And [00:51:35] the one name you see in the diary, you think I want to take the day off? Thank you very much. I’d rather ditch the [00:51:40] whole day to see this client. What happened? What happened? And no, it’s more [00:51:45] a matter of, um, even after you’ve referred them because you don’t [00:51:50] want to touch them. The referral hasn’t gone right as well. And then it’s a bit. Well, you told [00:51:55] me to see them, and this hasn’t been right. And this hasn’t.

Payman Langroudi: And blaming that on.

Mark Becker: You as well. Yeah. Because you [00:52:00] get blamed for the referral as well. And you sit there thinking, hang on, I just tried to do the right thing here. Yeah. And [00:52:05] yeah I’ve that’s and she’s because it’s almost like trying [00:52:10] to as a dentist we’re not really to argue. Yeah. So if you’ve got someone who’s got legal training [00:52:15] and they’re like a barrister or that type of ilk, I find myself [00:52:20] very ill equipped to deal with with a client. It’s very easy to sit there afterwards and think, I [00:52:25] should have said A, B and C. Yeah, but actually, at the time, your brain’s thinking, that’s a fair [00:52:30] point. That’s a fair point. Actually it wasn’t. But, you know, your brain is sitting there because they’re so articulate. [00:52:35]

Payman Langroudi: When they when they do. Well, you know, having listened to that, I used [00:52:40] to work in a place where at least half my patients were lawyers, and they’re [00:52:45] pretty good patients. I mean, I’d say this is yeah, lawyers.

Mark Becker: Can be lawyers can be good patients. I mean, it [00:52:50] reminds me of a patient I had come to see me, and I looked at her mouth and I’m like, you know, there’s [00:52:55] a couple of problems here. And she said, well, this was only done recently. There was a and [00:53:00] I’m 2 or 3 visits into treating her, and she and I finally [00:53:05] get to the point of, what do you do? And she goes, I’m a lawyer. And I said, you know, not not [00:53:10] a medical lawyer. She goes, no, I am. I said, you’re joking. She says, no, seriously. I said, [00:53:15] well, I haven’t documented this for a minute. She says, do me a favour. I deal with it every day to do [00:53:20] it in my own life. Yeah, I’m not interested.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what I felt.

Mark Becker: And they just. They just wanted that. [00:53:25] The job’s a job. And then there’s their own lives as well. And they don’t want all the. They don’t want to bring work home [00:53:30] with them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What about from the business perspective? What was the darkest time? [00:53:35] Well, it’s.

Mark Becker: Interesting now having taken a big loan to open at Brent Cross, but that’s [00:53:40] an interesting time. I wouldn’t say it’s dark, but you’re doing well now, I think. No, it’s going very well. I [00:53:45] think the biggest one was leaving the NHS. That was the darkest time. That was the most stressful time, [00:53:50] you know.

Payman Langroudi: But I thought it went quite well.

Mark Becker: The move. But no, the worry, the [00:53:55] worry went well. But that, that was the stress was the. Have I made the right decision? Are [00:54:00] my patients going to stay with me? You know, are enough patients going to stay with me? Will my patients understand? [00:54:05] Because in the 90s, when I left the NHS with the inverted commas new contract, [00:54:10] I, you know, no one, not many people had done that. You know, there were private practices, [00:54:15] but not many practices that had gone, you know, left the NHS and gone private. You’d open up as a private [00:54:20] practice. The conversion conversion wasn’t a wasn’t a big thing then. Well if it was I wasn’t aware [00:54:25] of that. So if you say to me what was my most stressful RESTful period. Almost [00:54:30] certainly that you know that having the faith that my patients like [00:54:35] me and respected me enough to understand that I had to make a move and they would follow me. And that, [00:54:40] you know, a couple of months that was that was yeah, I think there was a darkest time and a worrying [00:54:45] time. That was it being brave to make the decision. And I don’t get me wrong, I never looked back afterwards. [00:54:50]

Payman Langroudi: Did you send a letter to everyone explaining the reasons why, or did [00:54:55] you talk to them every time they came in? That’s a great.

Mark Becker: Question because I honestly [00:55:00] don’t remember. I must have written to them, but I certainly spent more time explaining it to patients. And it wasn’t [00:55:05] a quick job. It wasn’t. We just left overnight. It was, you know, no, we did do a [00:55:10] letter 100% because.

Payman Langroudi: I was I was in a practice when they did a conversion. And I think their advice [00:55:15] was that they there was a letter, but also there was an extra step [00:55:20] before seeing the dentist as they saw the dentist. They also went through this [00:55:25] dental plan person and yeah. And the dentist explained to every patient and then moved [00:55:30] them over. And I think it was a tiny minority who didn’t stay on. I mean, maybe [00:55:35] 15% didn’t stay on. I mean, you.

Mark Becker: Have to take that. Remember, you’re going to be booking your patients in for [00:55:40] longer. You probably truthfully want more than 15% to leave you. I mean, you probably don’t, but, you [00:55:45] know, from a from a logistics running the surgery at the end of the day. I mean, I’ve gone to a [00:55:50] well, that book was originally a five minute appointment book. I don’t do a check up in less than [00:55:55] half an hour now. Yeah. And the scary thing is, if I’ve got to squeeze a patient into a 20 minute check-up, [00:56:00] I struggle. You know, you tell other dentists you struggle to do it. They look at you like you’re mad, you [00:56:05] know? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because there’s going to be a bunch of people listening to this who do five minute check-up. Yeah.

Mark Becker: So. [00:56:10] And my hat’s off to you because I don’t know how you can do it day in and day out.

Payman Langroudi: Because is it that you’re [00:56:15] looking at the occlusion and comprehensive? I mean, what are you doing in the extra 15 minutes to 25?

Mark Becker: A lot [00:56:20] of that is look, I’m sure everyone does a thorough check-up, and I’m sure [00:56:25] my check-ups are probably no know better than everybody out there. Okay. But the difference I have, and truthfully, [00:56:30] what I use my time for a lot is getting to know my patients. Yeah, get to know my patients. [00:56:35] How are their kids? What are they doing? Where was the holiday? You know, how’s the family doing? Everything okay? [00:56:40] You know I do care about them. Yeah. And they’ll ask me about my family, and I’m open about that. [00:56:45] And most of my patients, I would almost turn friends.

Payman Langroudi: By [00:56:50] the way, having stopped practising whenever it was 12 years ago. The bit I missed [00:56:55] the most are those conversations. I mean, I know you’re a technology guy, you’re a good dentist. [00:57:00] You’re, you know, you probably love sticking things in. And personally, it’s only you [00:57:05] only realise once you stop the bit you really miss. The bit I really miss are those conversations because [00:57:10] interesting people, number one. Yeah. The people are doing different lives. So many people [00:57:15] who you’ve been following every six months for, for a long time, you know their lives. You [00:57:20] never know what.

Mark Becker: Your patients are. I had a patient in not long ago. He was actually on [00:57:25] the committee for the Nobel Prize. Wow. You know, not not a young gentleman, but [00:57:30] fully compos mentis. Smart, I mean, intelligent. I mean, conversation with him was [00:57:35] just fantastic. I mean, he was just. Still is. I mean, he’s alive still, [00:57:40] but but, you know, you just don’t know who you’re talking to at the end of the day. And some of our patients are just [00:57:45] special people. I mean, they really are.

Payman Langroudi: So then in that period, [00:57:50] you’re talking you’re they’re your friends anyway. You want to catch up with them. [00:57:55] Right. But give me some. Give me some sort of nuggets around. Okay. [00:58:00] What is it when they’re talking. Is it just listening to exactly what they’re saying [00:58:05] to then what informs your treatment plan and and what going forward? [00:58:10]

Mark Becker: So for treatment planning is I remember and I tell this story to patients [00:58:15] quite often. I remember going to a lecture in Mount Vernon many years ago, [00:58:20] and they put up a slide of an 80 year old gentleman and OPG and [00:58:25] I don’t know, there might be people in the room who are listening to this who were there as well. And the room [00:58:30] literally broke down into a it was almost a physical argument. I mean, it got rather nasty [00:58:35] between dentists saying, well, this guy’s 80 years old. Leave him alone. [00:58:40] You know, he doesn’t need the aggravation. You know, what does he need this for? To the other room saying, well, he [00:58:45] might live 20 years. And, you know, dentistry is going to get harder for him physically and financially. [00:58:50] And you’re best off treating him now. And they couldn’t see each other’s point. And I do [00:58:55] use that one as a life lesson because I tend to patients. And I say, look, they were both wrong, [00:59:00] both groups, because the truth is they should turn around to the 80 year old gentleman and say, look, what do you want? [00:59:05] This is the situation. What do you want? And I use the [00:59:10] analogy I use for I use for my patients.

Mark Becker: And if my patients here, they’ll be [00:59:15] laughing and saying, yeah, Mark said that to me. It’s a bit like having teeth is about like living in a house. [00:59:20] You know, you’ve got some patients, you know, some people in their house, they live there 30 years and every [00:59:25] room is immaculate. And every six months they’ve got their decorator in. And the house after 30 years is [00:59:30] beautiful and fantastic. Yeah. The drawback of that, obviously, is you’re always having decorators and you’re always having [00:59:35] work done. You’ve got other people live in a house for 30 years, and the carpet’s frayed and the windows cracked. There’s a damp patch in [00:59:40] the ceiling, and until someone trips on the carpet or the damp patch becomes a flood, they don’t even see [00:59:45] it. And one’s not wrong and one’s not right. It’s knowing which one you are and owning the responsibilities [00:59:50] of the decision you’ve made. So if you’re the latter and someone trips on the carpet [00:59:55] and hurts themselves, well, you’ve got to own that at the end of day. Or if your blood breaks, you’ve got to accept as an emergency. [01:00:00] And it’s the same thing with teeth at the end of the day.

Payman Langroudi: Lovely way of putting it, actually.

Mark Becker: You know, it’s like the teeth. They’re your [01:00:05] teeth. I mean, where the analogy falls down is obviously you can’t sell the teeth and give them to someone else and move somewhere else. But, you know, I [01:00:10] suppose that’s the full case implant job. But, um, at the end of the day, you know, I [01:00:15] think you’ve got to say, to treat your patients like an intelligent person that most of them are and say, look, take your [01:00:20] photographs. Say, look, I can leave this. Yeah. And it may not bother you for [01:00:25] ten years, but if you buy it and nut on it tomorrow and it breaks, we’re going to have trouble because we didn’t [01:00:30] crown it. And I don’t mind leaving it. But you need to understand that that’s a [01:00:35] choice we’re making. And I’m going to be guided by you. The old days of the dentist sitting there and [01:00:40] saying, you have to have X, Y, and Z are over. You have to you know, I hate the phrase co-discoverer, [01:00:45] but that’s the truth. At the end of the day, you have to explain to patients, show them and say, you know, own. [01:00:50] Own what you want. If you want to leave things alone and wait for emergency dentistry, that’s fine, [01:00:55] but own the responsibility of that. If you’re going on holiday or something breaks, don’t be upset [01:01:00] about it. That was your choice. Yeah. And alternatively, if you want to, you know, gradually [01:01:05] rehabilitate your mouth and fix everything, you know, own the fact that, yes, it’s going to cost you some time. It’s going to cost [01:01:10] you some money. You’re going to have to invest in yourself, but own that, you know, you they [01:01:15] have to take the responsibility on themselves and treat them like the intelligent people that most of them are, but document [01:01:20] everything.

Payman Langroudi: I guess that’s what takes time, right? Yeah.

Mark Becker: That’s right. That’s [01:01:25] half an hour.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. Having that conversation properly answering the odd question, the amount [01:01:30] of trust that builds important, but also just.

Mark Becker: Giving your WhatsApp number and say look. [01:01:35] And I use this on patients often, I’ll say, and this is the advantage of [01:01:40] being private obviously. But I’ll say to patients, look, don’t make a decision. Now, [01:01:45] I’m going to make another appointment for you to come back and chat to me and do me a favour. Bring a member of your family or [01:01:50] write down some questions, because you’ll walk in and you’ll forget. And if you want to email me the questions in advance, email [01:01:55] me the questions in advance, or bring someone with you so that you can chat and you can hear, especially [01:02:00] husbands and wives and parents and kids, you know, so that you can have a three way [01:02:05] conversation and make sure you thrash out everything before you start. Because if [01:02:10] you get something wrong. Yeah. And it’s been explained the risks beforehand. [01:02:15] Most patients are. Yeah, I get that. But if you don’t explain it to them, it goes wrong. [01:02:20] Suddenly the very same reason is now an excuse and then you’ve got problems.

Payman Langroudi: How [01:02:25] do you feel about the defensive nature of sad? Yeah. Me [01:02:30] too. I feel like the lawyers have won in a way.

Mark Becker: Oh, they they’ve they’ve won completely. [01:02:35] I mean, you just don’t even bother fighting doing the fight anymore because you’re not going to win. I mean, one of the. I just remember [01:02:40] many years ago, one of my associates in writing that he did a crown on a patient. He wasn’t 100% [01:02:45] happy with it. He put it on with temp bond. He said to the patient, come back next week. I’d like to review it. See what’s happening. [01:02:50] £89 on the NHS. I think it was at the time, and the patient comes [01:02:55] back three years later and his associates of course, left. The crowns come off and the patient’s not happy. [01:03:00] Never came back for the review of his bond. Yeah. Yeah. He lasted three. It was three years as well. [01:03:05] So I’m thinking what was the problem? And the patient’s now lost the crown, got all upset about it. [01:03:10] And I spoke to the Defence Union because another associate was dealing with it. And they said, oh, we’ll just give them the money back. [01:03:15] God. Yeah. It’s cheap for them to pay them the £89 back. Yeah. Than to say, [01:03:20] look, actually, you’ve got to own some responsibility. You didn’t come back. The dentist clearly documented. And you [01:03:25] can see where the appointment had been cancelled in the computer. You know, the patient never came back. So the patient gets [01:03:30] their £89 back and, you know, thinks that they were right at the end of the day. [01:03:35] And that type of thing is really sits. It’s sad. That’s the only word [01:03:40] for it. But it’s not just dentistry. You talk to any healthcare professional or any any [01:03:45] any professionals. They’ve all got the same issues. I mean, you can take this further, you can take this and look at [01:03:50] so I look at things like, um, uh, when [01:03:55] we were, when we were young dentists, you know, NHS patients used to be you’d get, they’d get letters [01:04:00] to go to inspection. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, some would at least look at your dentistry. Yeah. [01:04:05] What’s that? Yeah. It was.

Payman Langroudi: Dire.

Mark Becker: Yeah. The audio. Audio.

Payman Langroudi: Audio.

Mark Becker: The regional [01:04:10] dental officer. Yeah. And you’d send your patient. You’d hope you get some good reports that most of us didn’t have any problems [01:04:15] at the end of the day, provided you treat your patients well, your dentistry was, you know, of a decent standard. You were [01:04:20] okay. Yeah. And today, what really upsets me, I think, most about dentistry is [01:04:25] this this issue of, you know, all the paperwork you have to do to keep compliance [01:04:30] happy at the end of the day. Because and I say to my patients often, you know, you could be a great [01:04:35] dentist, but if you haven’t got all your paperwork in place, you’re in trouble, you’re going to get [01:04:40] struck off. And you could be the worst dentist in the world. But if all your paperwork is in place, everything’s [01:04:45] okay. Yeah. And that really sticks in my throat. And I think it’s a bad thing for the profession. [01:04:50] I think it’s a bad thing for patients. And I think we need to try and find [01:04:55] a way out of that. And I just don’t know how you do it, though. I mean, there’s people a lot brighter than me out [01:05:00] there who must be thinking how to solve the situation, because at the end of the day, you know, not [01:05:05] dotting your I’s and crossing your t’s can’t be the only way forward in dentistry. You know, it [01:05:10] has to be about the quality of care provided to your patient, not whether you’ve got, you know, paperwork [01:05:15] ticked off and boxes.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s it’s going to only get worse.

Mark Becker: And it’s not just [01:05:20] dentistry. It’s everything. Yeah. You talk to your patients who are accountants or lawyers and they’ve got [01:05:25] the same thing. They say exactly the same thing. It’s, you know, it’s pervasive in society.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve [01:05:30] hired and I guess fired a load of dentists [01:05:35] in your time.

Mark Becker: I haven’t actually.

Payman Langroudi: Hired.

Mark Becker: I’ve hired? [01:05:40] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What do you look for in an associate? Can you. And [01:05:45] are you good at spotting a good associate in the limited? I don’t interview [01:05:50] situation.

Mark Becker: The only way you can judge an associate. Because they’ll turn up with a book of. I’ve [01:05:55] done all these cases at the end of the day. They’re not going to show you the bad cases, obviously. Um, I [01:06:00] think you the only thing you can do is really hear how they talk. Listen. Listen in and hear how they talk [01:06:05] to the patients. Yeah. You know, by then, obviously, you’ve made your decision. They’re already in the door. Yeah. But, you know, and [01:06:10] you have to be there and be a sounding board for them at the end of the day. And you know.

Payman Langroudi: But you don’t [01:06:15] I mean, you have no idea, right? You’ve put an ad out, the guy sitting in front of you who’s showing you pretty.

Mark Becker: Pictures has no idea. You’ve [01:06:20] got. No, you could have, you know, he had all the awards at dental school. Yeah. But, you know, he sits down and can’t talk [01:06:25] to the patients at the end.

Payman Langroudi: So the way he’s talking to you in the interview, that itself is a key thing, right? [01:06:30]

Mark Becker: Absolutely. The presentation and whether they come over, can they talk? Can they can [01:06:35] they, um, keep your your eye contact [01:06:40] with you? Yeah. You know, do they listen do they, um, do [01:06:45] they understand what’s happening with the situation and how, you know, how they treat [01:06:50] their patients? You can give them ideas. Say, what would you do if. Yeah. Yeah. But the truth is, I mean, [01:06:55] most of us know the answer to those. And it’s a tick box answer as opposed to.

Payman Langroudi: Especially young ones. [01:07:00] Now, they they they know their timing is brilliant and they know these answers doesn’t mean they’re [01:07:05] going to execute you.

Mark Becker: It doesn’t mean they’re going to execute it at tool. And I [01:07:10] think at the end of the day, they are so much more tech savvy than we ever were, and they’re [01:07:15] much more aware of what’s going on.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and there’s so much more resource out there for them [01:07:20] to draw on, like social media and all that. So is it harder now? Is my question. Is [01:07:25] it harder now to distinguish the good from the bad, or has it always been the same problem? Well, what’s. [01:07:30]

Mark Becker: A good association? What’s a bad associate?

Payman Langroudi: Well, someone who keeps their patients happy keeps the team happy. Yeah. You got to keep. Keeps [01:07:35] you happy. Let’s face.

Mark Becker: It. Yeah. And they’ve got to pay their way at the end of the day unfortunately as well. And that’s, of [01:07:40] course, a very, very difficult pyramid to.

Payman Langroudi: I mean you said you don’t enjoy that. You don’t enjoy [01:07:45] the business side. Does that mean you’re not really focussed on the numbers and things or [01:07:50] you are. You have to.

Mark Becker: Focus on the numbers at some point.

Payman Langroudi: So do you know you know, like each room has to make this much per [01:07:55] hour to. Yes. And you’re paying attention to you know, that room is losing me money right now.

Mark Becker: I’m the type [01:08:00] of at the moment got to the point where I’m concentrating on quality of care for [01:08:05] the patients and keeping new patients happy. The money will follow later. I’m not sitting there in [01:08:10] nickel and diming and watching every single penny. You can’t. You’ll drive yourself mad. Yeah. Um, I [01:08:15] remember, uh, I think it was probably my father who said this. At the end of the day, [01:08:20] uh, he said something along the lines of, you know, don’t worry about the money. [01:08:25] You know, you just got to set your fees fairly and treat the patients fairly. [01:08:30] And if you balance those two correctly, the rest you’ll make a living. The rest will follow. You can’t sit there. [01:08:35] And you know, this only took X this day. And it wasn’t enough. It didn’t even pay my notes. You’ll [01:08:40] drive yourself to distraction. I mean, you can’t live like that.

Payman Langroudi: But I think there are plenty of practices out there where associates [01:08:45] are losing the money, but they’re not aware of it because they haven’t got a good understanding [01:08:50] of the numbers.

Mark Becker: They. Yeah, I mean associates.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:08:55] by the way, associates who are not aware of it themselves.

Mark Becker: Yeah. Well, the associates don’t really know what what it, how [01:09:00] it, how much it costs to run a surgery at the end of the day. And, and neither do the patients, obviously. Um, [01:09:05] the, uh, I [01:09:10] think the associates for me, there are a couple of big advantages of them. I mean, I [01:09:15] worked a single handed for like 15 years. So when I wanted the ones to go on a holiday, [01:09:20] it was like the phone comes with me and I answer every call. And yes, there were some very handy dentists to answer [01:09:25] it, but I never actually got away and didn’t take my phone with me and answer calls and answer [01:09:30] emails. And my wife would rightly look at me sometimes and say, well, get away from work. Come on, you’ve got to have a break. [01:09:35] And so having associates is a it may not necessarily make you money, [01:09:40] but it can buy you some sanity at the end of the day. Because I just went on a holiday recently and [01:09:45] it’s the first time I, you know, totally switched off. I switched off, I mean, my patients could still get me by email, [01:09:50] but I could turn around and say, listen, there’s a dentist there and they can deal with this for you. [01:09:55]

Mark Becker: And you know, that that I hadn’t done in years. And that was really nice. It’s also [01:10:00] nice having some other dentists around you, you know, just to bat ideas of because they’re so lonely, [01:10:05] very lonely. It can be a really lonely job. So having ideas bounce off of them. And, you know, the [01:10:10] latest bonding agents, which I, you know, I’ve been using the same bonding agent for, you know, 7 or 8 years [01:10:15] and it works for me. But why? Why change? But the associate turned around and said, well, this is the new one. And it’s, you know, new materials [01:10:20] and I’ve got materials. And, you know, they were they move on, you know, which [01:10:25] one do you um, for me composite wise, helium or HP I’ve loved [01:10:30] for years. Oh, really? Yeah. It’s just a heavy body. You can pack it nicely. It works. Well, it’s a [01:10:35] little bit expensive, but, um. And bonding, I see. Um. Opti bond solo. [01:10:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: An anterior composite. Um, [01:10:45] do you get involved with composite bonding like I do?

Mark Becker: I do a fair bit of composite bonding, but [01:10:50] I started that’s. It is an it’s an interesting story to me and probably no one else. [01:10:55] I remember when I took over the practice in Ruislip, the one of the partners [01:11:00] who stayed behind Hind comes up the stairs and he knocks on my door. He says, could you just come and have a look at this patient? [01:11:05] I’ve been treating him for a while and I’ve been watching him, and he’d basically been watching him grind [01:11:10] his teeth up to nothing. So I go downstairs and I’m [01:11:15] aghast. I don’t know what I’m going to do. He’s got nothing left. And I think it was Mount Vernon [01:11:20] I referred him to. But anyway, I got a letter back from the professor wherever it was, and described [01:11:25] this Dahl technique build up. And I thought the guy was absolutely pots. I mean, it was a silly [01:11:30] idea. Composite building up teeth is never going to work. Smash it to pieces. And he explained he opened up [01:11:35] the bite, and then he give it some time, and you crown the teeth and you’ve got you’ve opened up space for yourself. And, [01:11:40] um, I remember doing the first case and [01:11:45] it worked. This is 25 years ago, and I’ve been doing [01:11:50] Dahl and what a lot of people now call bonding since for 25 [01:11:55] years. And I can put my hand on my heart and tell you [01:12:00] that I’ve never once crowned one of these teeth. It’s just not necessary. [01:12:05] And you say to the patients. Look, I can crown them for you. We’ve opened up the space down there. I’m happy where I am. I’m [01:12:10] happy. It’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant modality.

Mark Becker: It’s fantastic.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, only very UK centric. [01:12:15] I didn’t know that. It’s not. It’s not used much in the US. People don’t know about it. It is.

Mark Becker: I find it. Absolutely. [01:12:20] The amount of patients and it’s an immediate result. I don’t even have to numb them up to do it. [01:12:25] You know, there’s no anaesthetic.

Payman Langroudi: No. I mean, I’m talking about.

Mark Becker: I’m. I’m saying. But it’s a nice a nice [01:12:30] patient. I don’t need to numb them up to do it.

Payman Langroudi: Oh of course. Yeah.

Mark Becker: I mean, I must [01:12:35] be honest, I tend to do most of it freehand still, because I’ve been doing it for so long. But the matrices work really nicely [01:12:40] as well. Yeah, but.

Payman Langroudi: I’d say if, you know, if if you can’t do it freehand then [01:12:45] yeah.

Mark Becker: They are great.

Payman Langroudi: I’m a bit concerned about that. But you know there’s, [01:12:50] there’s these injection moulding ways of.

Mark Becker: Yeah. Yeah I’ve seen them. I went on the course they just I. [01:12:55]

Payman Langroudi: Think there are, there are situations where it makes sense. But But you need to know the freehand. [01:13:00] You need to understand the.

Mark Becker: The freehand to me is just it’s just such a lovely technique to do. And this [01:13:05] is where enlightened comes in for me because I.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s go into that. Why? What is it you do differently to the [01:13:10] next man that makes you do so much enlightened?

Mark Becker: Um, I honestly don’t know. But [01:13:15] what I do know is that I just give my patients their choices. So for me, if I’m doing a bond, if I’m [01:13:20] doing a build up and there are a lot of patients out there grinding their teeth pieces, [01:13:25] um, the first conversation I have is, look, if you want to whiten your teeth, you really need to [01:13:30] do it now before I do the style on you, because afterwards I’m not going to be sitting there playing around [01:13:35] and trying to match the colours up. So.

Payman Langroudi: So do you do a lot of those and hence you do a lot of enlightened. [01:13:40]

Mark Becker: And typically you guys are always very fair because you make me another whitening tray after I finish the case. [01:13:45] And the fee is very reasonable for that at the end of the day. So I do appreciate that. So just the.

Payman Langroudi: Volume of [01:13:50] work is that are you not mentioning whitening to patients who need nothing?

Mark Becker: Oh no, we meant no. Absolutely. Mention the patients. [01:13:55] You know you have to handle how you how you mention it to them. And I’ve got an enlightened [01:14:00] little display thing in front and I’ve always got my photographs. I take loads of photographs and [01:14:05] look, the truth for me, for enlighten, [01:14:10] is that it’s the first time I found a dental product that’s predictably whitening my patient’s teeth. [01:14:15] That’s what it comes down to, provided you can get the patient to commit. And they have to understand they need [01:14:20] to commit to the regime that they need to do, you know, it works. It says what it [01:14:25] says.

Payman Langroudi: But how do I unlock that dentist who just isn’t doing much? You [01:14:30] I you know, that’s my you know, that keeps me up at night, which is why I’ve got you here, right? [01:14:35] I mean, look, I.

Mark Becker: The I think the dentist, [01:14:40] it’s just about giving your patients choice at the end of the day. And you have to be, have to have [01:14:45] a frank conversation with them. Because the other thing is that if you don’t go and do that technique on [01:14:50] them and they want it and they’re too embarrassed to bring it up, they’ll go to their friend’s dentist. Who [01:14:55] did it, you know, and you’ll lose that patient to another surgery. So at the end of the day, you [01:15:00] have to provide that. At least offer it. I mean, whether they want it or not, that’s a different [01:15:05] question. You’re not going to convince anyone, and nor should you try and convince anyone to have something done they don’t want to do. Yeah, [01:15:10] but at the end of the day, these people have a right to know what their options are and for [01:15:15] what, three weeks of treatment, you know, an occasional top ups. You’ve got a patient who’s going to have lovely [01:15:20] white teeth and can make a big difference to their lives very easily. You know, I had a patient [01:15:25] in yesterday literally beaming a smile when she came in and it was so nice to see. [01:15:30] And she a lovely lady and she was just happy. She was genuinely happy. She [01:15:35] didn’t think she’d get the result. And she did. And it’s nice to see. And you ask those [01:15:40] patients to give you a Google review or something and they are really happy to. [01:15:45] And the truth is, as a dentist, we haven’t really done that much. The chemicals have done it for [01:15:50] us. You know, we we’ve told them how we’ve told them the secret of doing it, [01:15:55] and we’ve given them stuff and we’ve taken a scan or an impression. But that’s all you’ve really done, [01:16:00] and you’ve made sure you talk your patient through it and send them, you know, I send them. I don’t know whether you’ve actually [01:16:05] got I meant to ask you if you’ve got a YouTube video for how to load trays up. Yeah. Yeah. I need [01:16:10] to get that one from you.

Payman Langroudi: Also, new desensitiser coming out. Yeah. The pen format. Okay. In [01:16:15] two weeks time. Okay, cool. You’ll enjoy.

Mark Becker: That. Cool. I must be honest. I thought we get some sensitivity in. The expression [01:16:20] I use to patients is you can’t make omelettes without cracking eggs at the end of the day, so expect some sensitivity. [01:16:25] You’ve got to handle that expectation that you may well get some sensitivity, [01:16:30] but it’s going to be short term, and it’s not going to be not going to damage your teeth. And [01:16:35] you know, if there was a problem with whitening, it would have been sued out of existence by now, especially in the United States, [01:16:40] obviously. So for me, enlighten I do class [01:16:45] as a premium product compared to my normal one. If I don’t think I’ve done any of my traditional whitening. [01:16:50] I used to do a lot of zooms. I used to do a lot of bright smiles and, you [01:16:55] know, much more sensitivity. And how are you going to top it up? How are you going to keep them white at the end of the day? Yeah. [01:17:00] You know, the beautiful thing about enlightened is you just sell them a top up gel and they keep it white [01:17:05] afterwards and it’s done and they’ll send their friends to you. And if you don’t do it, someone will.

Payman Langroudi: You make it sound so [01:17:10] effortless yet? And yet we get people who think they’re going to embarrass [01:17:15] the patient by bringing up teeth whitening, and you get people who [01:17:20] don’t want to look like they’re a pushy salesman, so they don’t bring it up. I think, you know, it comes down to, you know, the need [01:17:25] question and the want question. You know, what’s desired profession stuck in need.

Mark Becker: Yeah. But it’s [01:17:30] but it’s it’s I think you have to look, there’s no patient I would ever discuss enlightenment with as my first [01:17:35] thing, you know, and I break it down to patients. There is dentistry [01:17:40] you need. You’ve got caries, you’ve got an abscess. You need treatments. You know, that’s [01:17:45] need. You require that treatment. Then there’s the desire driven dentistry, [01:17:50] you know. And, um, in fact, before there’s, there’s a, there’s dentistry [01:17:55] that’s advisable preparing a crab, putting a crown on a phase.

Payman Langroudi: One, phase two, phase three.

Mark Becker: So, [01:18:00] you know, the stuff that you should do, which isn’t needed right now, but it’s going to help your [01:18:05] general health. You know, maybe some crowns, or it may be changing some fillings or something, but, you know, you [01:18:10] can’t say it’s urgent to the patient, but it’s something they should think about. So it’s like think, you know, need to think [01:18:15] about dentistry. And then there’s desire driven dentistry. And the desire driven [01:18:20] dentistry is, you know, often what patients want at the end of the day. But I think you do need to explain to them [01:18:25] that, you know, you need to you need to get these things done in the right order at the end of the day. And, um, [01:18:30] most patients react quite well to that, especially if you’ve got your photographs back to photos, [01:18:35] have your photographs explain the reasons. Have some pictures of some patients you’ve done with enlighten. [01:18:40] I mean, I’ve got a lovely big screen in front of my chair, 60 inch [01:18:45] TV screen I’ve got in front of my chair, and I’ll put up a picture of a before and afterwards, because your. [01:18:50]

Payman Langroudi: Intraoral camera will also come up on that.

Mark Becker: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, I think I think, you know, now I’m thinking [01:18:55] back here, I remember if my intraoral camera, the light was gone on it. Oh it [01:19:00] would ruin my day is ruined. Ruin my day.

Mark Becker: Oh, 100%. I’d rather shut the surgery. Can’t stand it. [01:19:05] In fact, I’ve even been known to try and use my iPhone. Get a mirror Dental mirror. Oh, and at the same [01:19:10] time, because my camera wasn’t working so I could get the picture, it doesn’t work that well. The lighting [01:19:15] is very difficult to do. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: To be honest, that top tip here because you just remind, like I’d forgotten [01:19:20] all about it. And now I remember thinking at the time, you know, the before picture, the during picture, the caries, [01:19:25] the cleaned up tooth and then the after picture, those four pictures. Although sometimes [01:19:30] I do remember wanting that during picture to be so nice that I’d be removing [01:19:35] too much of the affected dentine exposing sometimes [01:19:40] exposed ones just trying to make it look pretty.

Mark Becker: Pretty. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, so so stop taking that picture before [01:19:45] caries.

Mark Becker: Nice little blood spot.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that did happen to me. Yeah, the red.

Mark Becker: Stuff’s not great. [01:19:50]

Payman Langroudi: But. But those four pictures, I remember thinking back in the day, I [01:19:55] remember thinking they’ve added 30% to the price of the treatment. As in the satisfaction. [01:20:00]

Mark Becker: Of the price. The value, the value.

Payman Langroudi: There you go. The value.

Mark Becker: I think, is the value. It’s not price, it’s value.

Payman Langroudi: I used to give a surprise [01:20:05] and delight free electric toothbrush at the end of some ridiculous treat, like some some [01:20:10] ten veneer treatment or something. I’d give a electric toothbrush and the [01:20:15] the joy that it just came from nowhere, but that these little things are so important.

Mark Becker: You [01:20:20] remind me of when I left the NHS now because we were talking about earlier, and I’d forgotten about this. [01:20:25] When you did NHS treatment, you do, you know you do. You used to be able to do quite [01:20:30] large cases on the NHS and the patients paid 200 or £600, whatever it was.

Payman Langroudi: What was that thing you.

Mark Becker: Said of the [01:20:35] treatment.

Payman Langroudi: Approval.

Mark Becker: Or the prior approval? Prior approval?

Payman Langroudi: Yes, sir.

Mark Becker: And the patients would very [01:20:40] rarely say thank you afterwards. And what I do remember is when I went to private, [01:20:45] Privates you charge that appreciate your time. You’d enjoy the quality of the work you’re doing, [01:20:50] and it’s amazing. The patients said thank you afterwards.

Payman Langroudi: Because because you had the time to build the relationship, [01:20:55] the value in NHS, there was no time to build the relationship.

Mark Becker: And I do remember not [01:21:00] only wasn’t earning necessarily more because I was seeing a lot less patients, [01:21:05] but I was enjoying what I was doing more and I could build a better relationship with my patients. [01:21:10] But it was the appreciation you felt from the patients.

Payman Langroudi: You know, they talk about [01:21:15] the Maslow’s hierarchy of needs or whatever. Yeah. And, you know, why do people come to work? And [01:21:20] there’s the money and then there’s the social side. As a dentist, I remember thinking a [01:21:25] really heartfelt thank you was the thing that would make the job worthwhile. [01:21:30] Yeah, yeah, 100%. And it’s a strange thing because on paper it doesn’t really [01:21:35] make that much sense. You know why? But but but it does make sense. Insomuch as we’ve all [01:21:40] got. You’re going out of your way for that patient without him really knowing that you’re going out of your way, you’ve got that little ego. [01:21:45]

Mark Becker: And also you’re competing with that that patients previous dentists as well. And [01:21:50] you know it’s like ego there. Yeah. We’ve all we’ve all got an ego. It’s like uh it’s [01:21:55] nice to be appreciated.

Payman Langroudi: Before I get to the final, final questions I do want [01:22:00] your input on, we have another podcast which is mental health based. Mhm. [01:22:05] Why do dentists end their own lives more than other [01:22:10] professionals and divorce.

Mark Becker: More.

Payman Langroudi: And divorce more? Yeah. Why why why dentists. [01:22:15]

Mark Becker: I think the answer to that is the nature of the job. Because at the end of the day, you’re [01:22:20] performing non-stop. There’s no if you’re a lawyer, you sit down, you don’t answer the phone, [01:22:25] you take a break. You can manage your time differently. You’re not expected [01:22:30] to have an immediate answer if you’re an accountant. Same thing. And same thing with GPS. [01:22:35] They’re sitting behind a desk. They’re giving advice. They’re not. We’re operating constantly. [01:22:40] Yeah. You know, you’re you’re invasively treating someone on a live patient. A live patient, [01:22:45] not sedated. They’re not asleep. And it’s one patient after the next. And [01:22:50] it’s constantly running to time, providing the quality of care. And it’s the nature of the beast of what we do [01:22:55] at the end of the day. And I think the stress from that over the years builds up. And [01:23:00] I really think that and and how you get around that really difficult. [01:23:05] But certainly seeing less patients a day is one way forward. And guess what? You have [01:23:10] to go private to do that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s been a massive [01:23:15] pleasure. I’ve learned so much. Um, we’re going to end we’re going to end with the same questions that we [01:23:20] always end with. I don’t know if you’ve had time. You could have.

Mark Becker: Emailed them a couple of days.

Payman Langroudi: I thought they did.

Mark Becker: I [01:23:25] thought they.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t. You know, people come on to this show from different angles. So you [01:23:30] came in from a you do a lot of enlightened angles. Okay.

Mark Becker: Fair enough.

Payman Langroudi: But whatever [01:23:35] comes to mind, whatever comes to mind. Fantasy dinner party three. Three [01:23:40] guests, dead or alive. I think it would.

Mark Becker: Have to be in both of them. Oh, yeah. I mean, I just [01:23:45] remember he’s alive, right? He’s alive? Yeah. I just. I just remember that those test [01:23:50] matches against Australia, where he single handedly saved England. And to me, as a kid, that was everything. [01:23:55] That was fantastic. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Did you do you play cricket [01:24:00] now?

Mark Becker: I know, I know now. No I don’t. I did as a kid, but no, I mean, I enjoy [01:24:05] watching it still. Um, but no, definitely. Um, I think, [01:24:10] um, probably Peter Lorimer. I was [01:24:15] an old Leeds fan. He’s a footballer. Yeah, he was a footballer for Leeds United.

Payman Langroudi: When Leeds were doing really well.

Mark Becker: Back [01:24:20] in the 70s. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Um, certainly. And then I would probably go [01:24:25] with, I’d probably go with someone like. [01:24:30] Um, [01:24:35] I wouldn’t go with anyone in the movie industry. I just find that a bit [01:24:40] vain. I’m not. I’m just trying to think of who’s.

Payman Langroudi: Who’s [01:24:45] your Dental hero?

Mark Becker: Probably the guy who’s trained me, to be honest. [01:24:50] Oh, really? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about very.

Mark Becker: Unassuming. But I do still have dinner with him, [01:24:55] so I can’t add into my fancy table.

Payman Langroudi: Well, he could. Why not? Why not? Um. But. But I don’t mean that. What [01:25:00] what what comes to mind? What was the best course you ever went on?

Mark Becker: Uh, easy. [01:25:05] Um. American dentist. Ronald. [01:25:10]

Payman Langroudi: Goldstein.

Mark Becker: Goldstein.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, the original cosmetic dentist. Yeah. Well, it was.

Mark Becker: More about how [01:25:15] to place posterior restorations. And from that day, [01:25:20] I’ve used a rubber dam on every single patient.

Payman Langroudi: Was that in London?

Mark Becker: Yeah, it was in London. That was, I think, [01:25:25] the course that changed the way I provided dentistry more than anything else. Because before that I’d placed [01:25:30] a couple of posterior composites. Everyone got sensitivity afterwards. The contact points weren’t [01:25:35] great. And he in one afternoon, and I think it was one day. And then there was an afternoon and a [01:25:40] morning session where you sat down as a practical on phantom heads, and [01:25:45] that, that, that is the I think, of course, that changed my dentistry more than anything else.

Payman Langroudi: Favourite bit [01:25:50] of kit.

Mark Becker: Intraoral camera I suppose, to be honest, it has to be that. I mean, there’s loads [01:25:55] of kit. I love my lasers and my, um, scanners and I’m [01:26:00] looking forward to trying out the new, um. I should be getting it shortly. New Itero [01:26:05] Lumina. Is it? I think they call it. And that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Have you used that feature on the scanner [01:26:10] where you can, um, scan twice and see the where? Yes. [01:26:15] Is that good?

Mark Becker: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Some patients can see as well.

Payman Langroudi: So that that [01:26:20] must be a real good educational tool. No, that’s a.

Mark Becker: Good educational tool. And they can see the difference. But you’ve got to wait a [01:26:25] certain amount of time and then obviously you’ve lost some tissue. I mean, I’m very big into using a [01:26:30] night guard for patients. And just saying to the patient, look where the night guard is. Six months time you [01:26:35] come back and you’ve He’d been wearing. It’s brand new. I’m not going to worry. But if you’ve destroyed it in three weeks, we’ve got a problem. [01:26:40] But, uh. Yeah, but. Yeah, a bit of kit. Yeah. Unsure camera.

Payman Langroudi: Final [01:26:45] question. Um, we’ll get back to you. A third guest. Um. This [01:26:50] a deathbed question? Yeah. On your deathbed, surrounded by [01:26:55] your loved ones? Yeah. Hopefully in many years from now, three pieces [01:27:00] of wisdom you’d leave them with. What would they be?

Mark Becker: Don’t [01:27:05] worry so much, because stress never helps anything. At the end of the day. [01:27:10] I wish I could take that advice myself, but I can’t. Um. I [01:27:15] try not to fight with people. Most [01:27:20] people are good and they don’t mean to cause a grievance. Try and [01:27:25] find the good time to see the good in people. Try and accept that you know what? You might have been a little bit [01:27:30] at fault as well. And try not to fight with people because ultimately, especially family. I [01:27:35] try not to fall out with family if you can help it. So true. Um. You know, they’re the only. You know. [01:27:40] That’s your blood at the end of the day and try not to fall out with them.

Payman Langroudi: And so often that does happen.

Mark Becker: And [01:27:45] I suppose don’t only worry about, you know, [01:27:50] what’s in the bank or what you’re driving. Because the truth, at the end [01:27:55] of the day, it doesn’t change who you are as a person. You know, we all thankfully [01:28:00] have pretty good jobs. We all do generally very well. But it’s not a matter of, you know, [01:28:05] just worrying about what’s in the bank. You can’t you’ll drive yourself [01:28:10] mad because there’s always going to be someone who’s got more than you. And unfortunately, human nature, [01:28:15] you tend to look up. You tend to be jealous of the people above you, and you forget how many people [01:28:20] are aren’t, and how many people are below you. And I don’t mean below as an insulting term, I mean [01:28:25] as in the quality of life. And you know, we don’t appreciate how lucky [01:28:30] we are. Well, and don’t get me wrong, I wish I could take those three pieces of advice and live by them myself. [01:28:35] It’s not easy. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. Um, but I think if I could impart those three things, I think that [01:28:40] would be.

Payman Langroudi: It’s that kind of a question. You can either say it, answer it in a sort of I did this and [01:28:45] it worked for me. Or you can say.

Mark Becker: I’d want to be better.

Payman Langroudi: That way. I wish I did do this, you know. [01:28:50]

Mark Becker: Well, I wish I could be more of those of those things at the end of the day.

Payman Langroudi: And you’ve got kids, [01:28:55] right? I’ve got.

Mark Becker: Four.

Payman Langroudi: Four.

Mark Becker: I’ve got four.

Payman Langroudi: My goodness. Tip [01:29:00] my hat off. How old’s the youngest? The youngest is.

Mark Becker: 15. Just starting GCSEs.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Mine too. [01:29:05] Yeah. So. And the oldest.

Mark Becker: 28 this year.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. [01:29:10]

Mark Becker: We had three under three and then a nine year gap. And the number four.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Mark Becker: No. [01:29:15] But I’m proud of them all.

Payman Langroudi: Any of them dentists.

Mark Becker: Know how [01:29:20] much I love dentistry? You have to do it because you’re interested in it. And I think my [01:29:25] my my oldest son is an accountant. My second son’s a computer, uh, works [01:29:30] with computers and I can’t quite understand what he does, but it sounds clever. Um, and, [01:29:35] um, my third son, um, is trying to is a struggling actor. [01:29:40] Oh. So, uh, he wants to. He was [01:29:45] studying to be a barrister, and he said, I don’t enjoy it. And to be hats off to him. He had the the [01:29:50] strength of personality to say, it’s not for me. I don’t want to do this. Yeah. And he’s trying [01:29:55] his hand. He’s trying to be an actor.

Payman Langroudi: Love that. Yeah. I love the fact that, you know that it doesn’t have to be [01:30:00] maths, physics, chemistry and dentistry and law, you know? [01:30:05] You know, someone’s.

Mark Becker: My daughter. Still might be a dentist. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But you know what I mean. We’d never have [01:30:10] movies. We’d never have plays we’d never have if someone didn’t become an actor. Exactly.

Mark Becker: No. [01:30:15] And they’re very I mean, they you talk to most if you meet [01:30:20] actors and I know a few, they are incredibly intelligent people. I mean, they they [01:30:25] the ability to learn their lines and to to integrate them is It’s just incredible. I mean, [01:30:30] I can’t, you know, I certainly could never do something like that, but, [01:30:35] uh, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Been such a massive pleasure. Thank you so much for coming all the way as well.

Mark Becker: It wasn’t that far, but it’s [01:30:40] a pleasure. It was good to meet you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You too.

Mark Becker: Thank you. Thank you.

[VOICE]: This [01:30:45] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get [01:30:50] to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:30:55] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [01:31:00]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole [01:31:05] thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening [01:31:10] to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value [01:31:15] out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if [01:31:20] you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, [01:31:25] so much for listening. Thanks.

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