Month: February 2025

[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is mind movers [00:00:10] moving the conversation forward on mental health and [00:00:15] optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:00:20] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Hello [00:00:25] everyone! Welcome to another episode of Mind Movers where we’re joined by Doctor Filippa [00:00:30] K who is a GP, author and menopause expert. She has [00:00:35] been an incredible force within the medical community, and I just want to say, [00:00:40] I actually met her when I got asked to be on the Piers Morgan Show and I was like, oh, she’s [00:00:45] just incredible. You know, I was being ripped apart by Piers Morgan, but not not by Piers Morgan. Who [00:00:50] was it then? Jeremy, Kyle and Phillipa was amazing. And what I [00:00:55] have found extremely interesting recently is that Phillipa has released a book specifically [00:01:00] on menopause. I have reached out to her as well regarding my own questions with [00:01:05] PMDD, mental health, fertility, and so forth. From [00:01:10] mood swings to brain fog, Doctor Philippa has unpacks the physiological and psychological changes [00:01:15] that women face during menopause, and how society’s silence around the topic can [00:01:20] leave women feeling extremely overwhelmed and isolated. So [00:01:25] today we’re going to explore the strategies to support mental health, challenge the stigma, and empower [00:01:30] women to take charge of their health during this transformative time. So welcome [00:01:35] Philippa.

Philippa Kaye: Seems like quite a challenge in a podcast, but let’s go.

Rhona Eskander: Yes, I [00:01:40] love that so much. You know what, Philippa? I like people to really meet the person [00:01:45] in front of me first and foremost. So I want to know a little bit about you. [00:01:50] Where did you grow up? Where did you go to university and why did you choose to become [00:01:55] a doctor?

Philippa Kaye: So I’m a cliché. I grew up in north west London. I went to medical [00:02:00] school in Cambridge and then in King’s College London. Um, but there is one question [00:02:05] at medical school interviews that you’re not supposed to answer, which is, well, you’re supposed to answer [00:02:10] it, but not the way that you want to. And the question is, why do you want to be a doctor? And what everybody wants [00:02:15] to say is, because I want to help people. And for some reason, that’s not supposed to be what [00:02:20] the answer is. I think that’s a really good answer, like a really good reason. But apparently [00:02:25] that’s not supposed to be what you say, but I did. I always wanted to be a doctor. I always wanted to help people. [00:02:30] There was a very brief moment in time, apparently in nursery, where I thought I was going to be a ballerina, but by [00:02:35] the time I was 4 or 5, I was set. And media medicine [00:02:40] is a little branch out of that. But in my average day I might [00:02:45] see 30 patients, I might have 60 patient contacts, but I [00:02:50] can reach thousands and tens of thousands and sometimes millions of people [00:02:55] on a show on ITV or on Sky news or wherever it might [00:03:00] be. And I think that there is a really important role to that [00:03:05] part of medicine, because there is no point in us writing articles [00:03:10] in a medical journal like The Lancet got to go where the people are, and sometimes [00:03:15] the people are reading the newspaper and sometimes they’re watching this morning. And actually [00:03:20] everybody needs that health information in a really understandable way. [00:03:25] And so that’s what we do. And inherently I think I’m really nosy. [00:03:30] And as a GP, I get to be really nosy and actually go inside people’s houses [00:03:35] and be nosy. And that are the two bits that I think make a good doctor to be nosy [00:03:40] about you and want to know you and who you are and what makes you you. Because that feeds into [00:03:45] everything that happens to your body. And being able to communicate [00:03:50] with you and translate the medicalese into English.

Rhona Eskander: Did you? So obviously you wanted [00:03:55] to be a doctor since you were young? I mean, that would stay the same with me in dentistry. Did you find [00:04:00] medical school enjoyable, challenging or both?

Philippa Kaye: So I am the only medic [00:04:05] in my family. Um. And I remember really clearly some people being like, well, [00:04:10] you’ve got no clue what you’re getting into. And other people being like, well, you must really want to do it. Um, [00:04:15] I loved school. I’m sorry. I know so many people hate it, I [00:04:20] loved it, and I loved medical school. And I still sometimes say all doctors [00:04:25] and dentists, I’m sure, have to do continual professional development. We have to keep learning because medicine didn’t [00:04:30] stay still when I qualified in 2004. Um, and I go to [00:04:35] these lectures and I think, God, the body’s fascinating, like, wow. And [00:04:40] I still get that sort of light up moment where [00:04:45] I think this is really interesting. This is where I want to be. And I really appreciate how lucky I [00:04:50] am to have that vocation. And I see so many people struggle, And I think that to [00:04:55] have a vocation is a really special thing, and then we get to use [00:05:00] that. Um, and so in some ways, and again, cliche sounds [00:05:05] really boring, but when your work is your passion, it’s okay.

Rhona Eskander: Totally. [00:05:10] So the funny thing is, is that I was I’m opposite to you. Everyone in my family [00:05:15] is pretty much doctor or dentist on my dad’s side. Typical kind of immigrant generation stuff. [00:05:20] Um, but I didn’t want to be a doctor. And one of the big reasons for me is because. And [00:05:25] now with my diagnosis of A.D.D., it kind of makes sense. It was all a bit too broad for me. So [00:05:30] I went to not broad, broad broad, right. So when I went to, I did this thing I cannot remember [00:05:35] what it’s called. I was trying to tell someone what Nottingham University did it before you apply to do [00:05:40] medicine and you do this kind of weekend where you’re a pretend doctor and they wake you up at like 2 a.m. [00:05:45] and you don’t know when it’s going to happen. And you rush to this like fake A&E. And, you know, it’s all very dramatic. [00:05:50] And I remember also, you know, sitting, pretending to be a doctor, and then a patient [00:05:55] comes in with all these symptoms and you’re meant to semi diagnose. And I found the whole thing quite overwhelming [00:06:00] because it was so broad. And as you know, with A.D.D., we you know, when you find something you really [00:06:05] like, you tend to want to hone in on it.

Rhona Eskander: And although. Yeah, exactly. And I feel like dentistry gives you the opportunity [00:06:10] to hyperfocus much early on because you are just dealing with the mouth. Although elements [00:06:15] of the training deal with medicine and you’ve got that part of it. I think the honing in on the teeth, the gums, [00:06:20] the mouth, etc., and using your hands almost immediately in second year really [00:06:25] helped me. I hated dental school, and the reason why I hated dental school was [00:06:30] because I didn’t really get on with the dentist, if I’m honest with you, I’m a natural creative. [00:06:35] So I did for English and Philosophy, chemistry and biology, and [00:06:40] I was my teachers were like, she needs to go to Oxbridge and do PPE. And [00:06:45] then I was like, oh, but I want to be a dentist. So there was this kind of dichotomy that was going on within [00:06:50] me that was like, where do I go? And I found myself naturally gravitating towards [00:06:55] the people in the arts, you know, the people that did English, the people that did politics, etc.. Um, [00:07:00] so that’s what I think that I found challenging. And the studying I did [00:07:05] find challenging.

Philippa Kaye: So I think, um, that I find it really [00:07:10] fascinating that dentists do the beginning of medical school. Yeah, I know how many teeth [00:07:15] there are. There are. That’s about it. Right? So they do like [00:07:20] two years worth of medical school and we know how to count teeth. Yeah. That’s [00:07:25] it. So it seems amazing to me that you have all of this knowledge and then in one area [00:07:30] and, and I think that when a patient walks in the door in general [00:07:35] practice, you have the whole of medicine open in your head. Right? And then they ask you, they sit [00:07:40] down, how can I help you today? And in fact, you’re not even supposed to say that. You’re supposed to just have the silence [00:07:45] and let them bring something in, and then you sort of have to turn in your head to the chapter on orthopaedics [00:07:50] or gynaecology or whatever it may be. And as you ask the questions, you’re getting narrower and narrower [00:07:55] and narrower. And but when you do your medical school training and you do a bit of this and a bit [00:08:00] of that, I went around and I thought I could see myself in this job, and I could see myself [00:08:05] in this job, and the only job I couldn’t see myself in was actually orthopaedics. I don’t want to stand [00:08:10] and hold a leg all day, and and general practice gives me the opportunity to [00:08:15] do all of those things. And you can make your job what you want it to be. So for example, [00:08:20] fitting coils or implants or something that’s a little bit more practical. But [00:08:25] for some people they do have that opportunity to say, I want to do microbiology, [00:08:30] but microbiology and only a viruses and only of this kind of viruses, and they can drill down [00:08:35] and but I think I’d get bored.

Rhona Eskander: So do [00:08:40] you think that’s why you were drawn to general practice as a GP? Because it [00:08:45] allowed you to have that spectrum. You know, where you could dip into all various [00:08:50] parts of medicine.

Philippa Kaye: I think it’s a combination of things. I think that’s the first bit and that’s the biggest pull. [00:08:55] And in particular, I really enjoy women’s health, children’s health [00:09:00] and sexual health. And whilst they sound like they’re linked in the hospital, they’re not, of [00:09:05] course. And so I could do all of those things. But when I was in medical [00:09:10] school, if you would have asked me, I would have said I wanted to be a premature babies doctor, a neonatal paediatrician, and [00:09:15] I loved that job. Yeah. Um, and you really saw what [00:09:20] you were doing and felt what you were doing in that job. And I went looking for female [00:09:25] mentors. And I’m 45, which is not that old. But actually, the world of medicine [00:09:30] has changed quite a lot in terms of helping women [00:09:35] be less than full time and have babies and understand that that’s [00:09:40] part of the career. And I couldn’t find a mentor that had what I also wanted, [00:09:45] which was to be married and have lots of kids, and I [00:09:50] could see people that did one thing or another thing, or try to do both and and how difficult [00:09:55] it was. And I thought, I’m not sure that I want to do this. So let me create my [00:10:00] way within general practice that I can do as much as I [00:10:05] want of this bit. I mean, obviously not neonatal peds, but you see loads [00:10:10] and loads of children. About a quarter of our work is children and, and and so the [00:10:15] two things together made me made me go for that. And occasionally people will say, [00:10:20] oh, you’re just a GP, do you ever want to go back to hospital medicine? And we always say, there’s no such thing as just a GP. [00:10:25] That’s a speciality in itself. We are specialists in general practice. It’s not the same, it’s different. [00:10:30] And no, I don’t want to go back to hospital medicine. I really think that this is the best choice [00:10:35] for me to be able to do all the bits that I want to do.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, it’s funny as well, because [00:10:40] again, a lot of things that were drilled into me as a teenager about [00:10:45] dentistry when I looked into it, was that it’s much more suited to a woman because of the hours, [00:10:50] because of the flexibility, because of the fact that it’s genuinely unless you are in hospital, [00:10:55] which very few people are. It’s a 9 to 5 job. You can take time off, you can be flexible, [00:11:00] you can do more private. And whilst there are so many females, [00:11:05] it’s a female dominated industry. Dentistry. Still, women are not [00:11:10] at the forefront in the top positions. So what I mean by that is people go, yeah, but there’s so many female [00:11:15] dentists. Okay, but where’s the ones that are part of the boards, you know, of the big [00:11:20] organisations? Where are the ones that are at the forefront of the lecture stages? Where are [00:11:25] the ones that are part of the decision making and the committees? You know, you see so few of it. And [00:11:30] whilst a few people may come along, I think there’s still a degree of misogyny and, [00:11:35] um, a little bit of misrepresentation, to be honest with you. [00:11:40] And again, a lot of female dentists will go off and do kind of aesthetics and, [00:11:45] you know, very few will become implant surgeons or surgeons in general.

Rhona Eskander: And I challenge [00:11:50] that quite a lot within my industry. I mean, quite famously, there was a big online conference [00:11:55] in Instagram, was at its embryonic stages, and I remember there was all [00:12:00] the big amazing male dentists holding this conference, and they sent me an invite and I go, that’s [00:12:05] great, but you don’t have a single female on the panel. And I think I got like a sort of bot [00:12:10] reply or something. And one of the guys on the panel, I knew quite well, he’s one of [00:12:15] the most respected dentists in the world, and the guys [00:12:20] in the group chat sort of made fun of my message, you know, like, oh, look, you know. And he said, no, she’s right. [00:12:25] You know, women should be at the forefront. Women should be part of the decision making. And this is a global issue [00:12:30] anyways, as we know. But I do find it interesting because as I said, people, a lot [00:12:35] of women had chosen dentistry as well because of the flexibility of lifestyle. What [00:12:40] I do want to ask you as well, which I know will feed into, you know, the bulk [00:12:45] of our conversation. Do you think that medical misogyny [00:12:50] is still a big problem?

Philippa Kaye: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: And for those people that don’t know, can you [00:12:55] define it? What what do we mean by medical misogyny? So I think.

Philippa Kaye: There’s two things here. I think there’s misogyny, [00:13:00] which actually means a hatred of women. And and that’s not sort of how people [00:13:05] use it in speak, but it means a hatred of women. And then there’s medical sexism. And [00:13:10] and we have to remember that women [00:13:15] have been around for millennia and for millennia. We have been judged on what we look [00:13:20] like and our ability to bear children. When you think about the big [00:13:25] changes in sort of women’s health, that link with women’s place [00:13:30] in society, those are the Abortion Act in the 60s, the pill in the 60s, [00:13:35] HRT, you know, whilst it was discovered earlier, didn’t really come to the fore to [00:13:40] the 60s. That’s less than a century ago. So these are the things which were really [00:13:45] a game changer for women. The pill separates women’s from having sex with necessarily [00:13:50] having children, and all of that entails. And 60 years worth [00:13:55] of something is not the same as five millennia worth of something, right? And [00:14:00] so these changes take a huge amount of time. Women weren’t mandated to be in medical trials [00:14:05] until towards the end of the last century. That means that you could have [00:14:10] any trial on a drug or on a condition, and not include women in it, because [00:14:15] the little darlings are too complicated with those periods. And, you know, and they might be pregnant. [00:14:20] Yeah. We’re different. Sometimes it’s complicated. That doesn’t mean that you exclude us.

Philippa Kaye: And [00:14:25] so some of what we might call medical sexism or medical misogyny is [00:14:30] about a lack of knowledge. So when I went to medical school and [00:14:35] learned about heart attacks and the image of an [00:14:40] overweight man in his 60s with a fag in one hand, clutching [00:14:45] his chest with the other and sweat dripping down his face. Right. And [00:14:50] actually, women might present feeling a little tired or dizzy or with backache, and that was [00:14:55] never taught. Now, some of the reason why that was never taught was because it wasn’t known. [00:15:00] And so I don’t think that is misogynistic. I don’t think that comes from a place of [00:15:05] hatred or sort of a deliberate, um, a deliberate [00:15:10] trying to hurt women that comes from a place of a lack of knowledge. And so that [00:15:15] bit needs to change. But we know really clearly that the gender health gap [00:15:20] is real and the gender pay gap is real, never mind things like the gender orgasm gap. So [00:15:25] the gender pay gap is, for example, that women’s pain is less likely to be taken seriously [00:15:30] than men’s. Yes, you are less likely to get painkillers in A and E, and [00:15:35] there is this idea in society that to be a woman is to live with pain that periods might [00:15:40] hurt and that having a baby might hurt, and that you just have to put up with it and continue in the [00:15:45] Tampax advert with your roller skates on.

Philippa Kaye: Plus managing your kids, plus managing your work. [00:15:50] Plus plus plus plus plus. And actually, to be a woman doesn’t have to be mean [00:15:55] that you have to live with pain. And that message needs to feed down not just [00:16:00] to women and society, but also to medicine and [00:16:05] what we’re taught in medicine and how we challenge that. And often in the menopause space and [00:16:10] the menopause campaigning space, I’m asked, don’t I get frustrated about how [00:16:15] slow things are? And I say, well, one, we’re fighting these millennia and that takes time. But two, that people [00:16:20] have to understand where we are in the process. In order for your doctor to [00:16:25] do something different, the guidelines have to change. In order for the guidelines to change, [00:16:30] we need to show that there is evidence that the guidelines need to change in order to produce [00:16:35] that evidence. We need to do the trials. In order to do the trials, you have to fund the trials in order to get the funding for [00:16:40] the trials. We have to be aware that there is an issue. That’s where we are raising awareness of [00:16:45] an issue. That is the point where we are at raising awareness of, for example, testosterone [00:16:50] use in women in menopause and the studies are being done right. And so these things take [00:16:55] a lot, a lot of time. And in the meantime, we have to continue to advocate [00:17:00] for ourselves over and over again.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Because I, you know, [00:17:05] forgive me, I cannot remember her name, but the very famous BBC TV presenter, because she came out, [00:17:10] the one with the short hair or she came out endometriosis.

Philippa Kaye: Yes, yes.

Rhona Eskander: Exactly, [00:17:15] exactly. And like, I think it was really interesting because I think she felt really gaslit as well, because [00:17:20] her pain was really real and her symptoms were really real. And like you said, she was almost [00:17:25] fobbed off. This is normal. This is just pain. It’s part of being a woman. Deal with it. [00:17:30] Uh, a controversial question. Do you think that if it was men that were experiencing [00:17:35] the symptoms that we had had periods and all that stuff, that more funding would go behind [00:17:40] the research needed to help the situation, [00:17:45] the circumstances and the symptoms.

Philippa Kaye: How many medications are available over the [00:17:50] counter for erectile dysfunction? They’ve been available over the counter for quite a long time, [00:17:55] haven’t they? You know, research happens for things that people think are important. And [00:18:00] as I said, they’re raising awareness. Now, if the people making the decisions [00:18:05] are men, they’re going to potentially or at least previously think about issues that affect men. And [00:18:10] for a long time, there was this idea that women are essentially little men and we’re [00:18:15] not. So it’s not that we are shorter and weigh less. It’s the fact that oestrogen, progesterone, [00:18:20] testosterone, all genders have all those sex hormones. But and that [00:18:25] oestrogen affects all parts of your body, not just your womb [00:18:30] and your breasts. And that impact affects your brain [00:18:35] and it affects your joints and it affects your bones. And so we need to look at [00:18:40] women in the context of that as opposed to thinking, well, they’re just the same as men. They’re not. [00:18:45] And when we saw that, for example, really clearly in Covid, why [00:18:50] were women doing better than men after the menopause? What was it? And [00:18:55] there is this idea that sex hormones are about your reproductive system. They’re much [00:19:00] more than that. They affect every part of you, from the hair on your head to the skin on your feet. [00:19:05] And so too, for men. And I don’t think [00:19:10] maybe I’m naive, but I don’t think that these things [00:19:15] are necessarily done malevolently. I think there’s just this [00:19:20] is what I was taught. This is what I know don’t know. And I think that there is a real [00:19:25] difficulty that both medics and society [00:19:30] have with saying, we just don’t know. Now, and one of the most [00:19:35] difficult conversations you have with a patient is.

Philippa Kaye: I can see your suffering [00:19:40] and we can’t find what the thing is to do about it. I can’t find it on [00:19:45] a blood test. I can’t find it on a scan. That doesn’t mean that whatever is happening to you isn’t [00:19:50] real. Endometriosis is a particular condition. The average length of diagnosis [00:19:55] is eight years, and for people who don’t know, that’s when there is tissue similar to the lining of the womb [00:20:00] and is deposited on other parts of the body. And so whilst the lining of [00:20:05] the womb build up every month and you have your period that comes out through the vagina and, and the blood [00:20:10] and the womb lining goes, if that tissue is on the outside of your womb or [00:20:15] on your bowel, for example, when you bleed, you’re bleeding internally and there’s nowhere for that to go. [00:20:20] And that causes inflammation and scar tissue, which cause all the symptoms not seen on a blood [00:20:25] test. Now there is a there are more specialist scans, but [00:20:30] often not seen on a scan at all. And the gold standard of diagnosis is with keyhole [00:20:35] surgery. And that you’re not going to necessarily do for everybody who comes in [00:20:40] with symptoms initially. And so the time to diagnosis is long [00:20:45] for all kinds of reasons. But it starts with this idea of [00:20:50] yeah, period pain is normal. No it’s not for anybody listening. If you can’t get off the toilet for three days [00:20:55] because you’re bleeding so heavily, if you’re missing school or work because you’re bleeding so heavily or you are in pain, go to the doctor. [00:21:00] We will do something about it. Mhm.

Rhona Eskander: I don’t know if this was just [00:21:05] a rumour. I also saw a clip on social media, as you do, that claimed [00:21:10] that the word hysteria is related to hysterectomy [00:21:15] and the symptoms that a woman had from a mental health point of view. [00:21:20] Is there truth to that? I want you to unpack that a little bit.

Philippa Kaye: For me comes from a Greek word, um, [00:21:25] and hysterics. Um, and it was thought that hysteria [00:21:30] was due to the wandering womb, um, and in the 19th century, [00:21:35] few were a bit difficult. Maybe you were a bit mouthy. [00:21:40] Maybe you were irritable. Maybe you had anxiety. The treatment was electrical stimulation [00:21:45] of your clitoris by a medical professional. Yeah. [00:21:50] So, um, so, I mean, orgasms might have helped. Who knows? They’re good for all kinds [00:21:55] of things. Um, but women’s sexual pleasure was so [00:22:00] not thought of that this was a medical treatment for the wandering [00:22:05] womb.

Rhona Eskander: And was a hysterectomy. The solution towards at all.

Philippa Kaye: So [00:22:10] a hysterectomy means removal of the womb. How did that. So this is history of medicine. [00:22:15] I’m not sure if that was used as a treatment, but the hysterectomy was much more common than it used [00:22:20] to. Used to be much more common than it is now. Because if you had, for example, in [00:22:25] very, very heavy periods and we didn’t have things like a coil or the pill, [00:22:30] then a hysterectomy would have been solved. The problem because you removed the womb. Okay, well, you’re not having [00:22:35] bleeding anymore. So hysterectomy is aren’t as common as they used to be. I don’t know their [00:22:40] history around that. It’d be interesting to find out, but.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, but the word hysterical is not [00:22:45] necessarily got a positive connotation. And so the fact that even like a hysterectomy, [00:22:50] hysterical. Like we should be challenging language in the same way language is being challenged [00:22:55] in lots of different ways with regards to gender, I think it’s really important that we give that consideration. [00:23:00] So there is.

Philippa Kaye: A there there is a link automatically, um, [00:23:05] between the word hysterical, which is not the same as mentally unwell, [00:23:10] you know, and you don’t really describe men as hysterical. It’s actually a derogatory word [00:23:15] aimed at women. And the basis of that word is because you got a womb.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. [00:23:20] It’s really interesting. Now, one thing that really resonated that you just said [00:23:25] that is sometimes we have patients and we certainly get this in dentistry as well, [00:23:30] where they have symptoms and you cannot provide necessarily a [00:23:35] solution. Um, in dental school it was described as either [00:23:40] having phantom symptoms or, you know, that, you [00:23:45] know, there was always a link perhaps to something mental health. As I progressed [00:23:50] further onto my career, I started to read the work of what I consider [00:23:55] to be more progressive doctors, and my father would argue, who was a more old [00:24:00] school doctor. It’s a little bit woo woo. And the reason why I say woo woo, because in [00:24:05] his mind it’s not necessarily tangible. So, for example, I read the work of Doctor [00:24:10] Gabor Matte, the work of Doctor Bessel. You know, the body keeps the score. And [00:24:15] I think that there’s a real gap within medicine and dentistry that does not allow and give space [00:24:20] to recognise that certain emotions, traumas and past [00:24:25] behaviours can certainly contribute to the symptoms that we get and manifest physically. [00:24:30] What’s your thoughts on that?

Philippa Kaye: We know that the brain and the body talk to [00:24:35] each other. We don’t quite sure how they do it, but we know that they do. [00:24:40] And actually everybody can think of an example of that. You have a bad cold and you just [00:24:45] feel a bit blah, and you don’t feel happy and you don’t feel energised, right? [00:24:50] Um, and when you’re in pain that your mood drops. So these are examples that people [00:24:55] sort of think, well, yeah. Or your libido drops. Why would you want to have sex? [00:25:00] And so we know really clearly that physical conditions [00:25:05] can have mental health symptoms and that psychological conditions. And by that I don’t mean made [00:25:10] up I mean related to your mental health can have physical symptoms. So [00:25:15] in depression that might affect your sleep, it might affect your energy, it might affect your appetite. And [00:25:20] in really severe depression, it can even affect how quickly you speak [00:25:25] or how quickly you move someone with anxiety. If you watch someone with severe anxiety [00:25:30] who is shaking and fidgeting and their heart is racing and they’ve got palpitations and chest [00:25:35] pain and shortness of breath and they feel sick, so we know really clearly that the two interact. [00:25:40] We also know that your gut is what we sometimes call your second brain. Your gut produces serotonin, [00:25:45] same as the brain, and it responds to serotonin.

Philippa Kaye: Actually really interesting. In regards to [00:25:50] women’s health producers, there are bacteria that are involved in the production of oestrogen and the response [00:25:55] to oestrogen. It’s called the ester bloom. And. And so we know they talk to each other. We know [00:26:00] that if you give patients with irritable bowel syndrome an SSRI antidepressant [00:26:05] doesn’t mean they’re depressed, but it makes their symptoms better. We know that we can use antidepressants [00:26:10] for all kinds of things which aren’t depression. So there is a [00:26:15] definite link between the two. I think there’s a [00:26:20] struggle in two ways. One is with the doctor saying, there is nothing more I can do [00:26:25] in terms of medicine, which is hard for us to say when we want to make you better. [00:26:30] And actually, I think as GP’s often we’re better at that than hospital doctors [00:26:35] sometimes because we, we see things from a different angle. So as a GP, [00:26:40] I’m ruling stuff out most of the time and then as a hospital doctor, a GP has already said [00:26:45] to you there’s a problem here, I might not know what it is, go find it. Right. So they’re ruling stuff in [00:26:50] and we know you. We know your family often. We know where you live. We know what you do. [00:26:55] It sounds really creepy. Um, but.

Rhona Eskander: Stalker, we.

Philippa Kaye: Know about you. [00:27:00] And sometimes we’re having these conversations [00:27:05] where we say, I see what? That you are struggling, but there isn’t [00:27:10] necessarily a medicine to fix that. So now what are we going to do? And actually the answer [00:27:15] often in those situations is around talking therapies. And that’s [00:27:20] where the second barrier comes in, which is the patients often say, you’re saying I’m crazy, I’m making [00:27:25] it up. And I’m not saying that. What I’m saying is there isn’t a medicine [00:27:30] to help. So what we now need is some kind of therapy to help you manage [00:27:35] what you have. And so if you go into a chronic pain clinic, you will [00:27:40] have a consultant anaesthetist, probably, who will be talking about medicines and sometimes epidurals [00:27:45] and all kinds of things. And you’ll also have a chronic pain psychologist because [00:27:50] not everything in medicine is answerable. Exactly. And that doesn’t mean [00:27:55] that we can’t help you in some way. Their help might be different. And there is a lot [00:28:00] of evidence that for certain, um, symptoms and conditions that often they [00:28:05] will be related to what are really clinically called adverse [00:28:10] childhood events and what are less clinically called often horrible stories [00:28:15] of abuse and things like that. And I think that we have to be [00:28:20] really open to talking [00:28:25] and thinking about those things, but I think that it requires a mind shift in both [00:28:30] the doctor and the patient to be able to say, [00:28:35] this is where we are. And the reason why that’s so hard often is because [00:28:40] we ought to start with, well, maybe your thyroid’s just low, because I can fix that with [00:28:45] a tiny tablet. And so you have to go down one route before you get there. And that’s [00:28:50] really difficult for everyone. Do you what’s your.

Rhona Eskander: Thoughts as well. [00:28:55] Because again, you know, going back to sort of the more progressive doctors that look into that and I know [00:29:00] that the NHS is integrating that and there’s huge amounts of research. Talk about this a lot on my podcast, [00:29:05] Integrated Psychedelic Therapy. So I know that, for example, some places are offering [00:29:10] um, in not in the UK necessarily, but in Switzerland they’re doing a lot [00:29:15] of research around mushrooms. They are also, I understand my friend [00:29:20] had a ketamine drip, you know, for her depression on on the NHS, which I’d [00:29:25] never heard of. That part of medicine is completely new. But looking at the history, because I read a [00:29:30] great book, How to Change Your Mind, um, which goes into the history of psychedelic medicine. [00:29:35] You know, these, this, these medications were actually making huge amounts [00:29:40] of progress back in the day. Then Nixon comes into power. War on [00:29:45] drugs comes in. Hippies, love and light. I don’t want to go to the Vietnam War. It’s all quite interesting, [00:29:50] you know. But then when I look at the psychiatric implications, you know, these medications were used [00:29:55] for PTSD. You know, people that were going to war, um, marriage counselling, all [00:30:00] those different things. Do you think any of those medications will actually make headway? And [00:30:05] for the ones that are being used like ketamine, do you think there is benefit or you know, what’s your views? [00:30:10]

Philippa Kaye: Let’s start with, um, I do not recommend that people take illegal [00:30:15] recreational drugs with the idea that it’s going to help you medically. [00:30:20] That is not what’s being talked about. Microdosing. Um, under [00:30:25] medical supervision. We’re not there. Two very separate things. And actually, medicine is [00:30:30] really interesting because we use illegal drugs [00:30:35] in illegal way a lot of the time. So medication for [00:30:40] ADHD, um, is a controlled drug because essentially [00:30:45] they’re stimulants. We use opioids. Um, if [00:30:50] you have an operation, if you have, I don’t know, a spinal anaesthetic, if you’re having [00:30:55] a caesarian section, we use them at end of life. Um, and they can all be abused [00:31:00] and misused in different ways. Um, and so there’s often been [00:31:05] a crossover. And what we need here is more research. [00:31:10] And what seems to be the case is that there are lots of people doing things sort [00:31:15] of on their own saying, you know, well, I just get this from my friend around the corner. That’s [00:31:20] not the same as what we’re talking about. And I think that we just need to know more. Another [00:31:25] example is using magnetic stimulation of the brain and TMS. [00:31:30] Yeah. Transcranial magnetic stimulation. And for a long time, [00:31:35] a treatment for very severe depression was ECT. Electric convulsive therapy. [00:31:40] And when I did psychiatry when I was a psychiatric show it was [00:31:45] something it is still used was something that was used is still used. Not in a One Flew [00:31:50] Over the Cuckoo’s Nest way and people are given an anaesthetic.

Philippa Kaye: It’s not the same. [00:31:55] And actually, for people with very severe catatonic depression, it [00:32:00] can work. And so and now there are forms which is sort of [00:32:05] you might consider it almost like ECT light. And now they’re talking about magnetic stimulation. [00:32:10] And all of this to me is entirely fascinating. And we need [00:32:15] more research because what we’ve got are vulnerable people. And whenever [00:32:20] any of us is unwell in whatever way, we are unwell. And I say this as a patient who’s had cancer [00:32:25] myself, we are vulnerable to the snake oil because we want to be better. [00:32:30] And where medicine doesn’t have the answers in the terms, [00:32:35] in easy terms in a pill, right? Because often answers [00:32:40] are hard if they involve doing more exercise and eating a certain way. Et cetera. Et [00:32:45] cetera. That’s much harder than please take this tablet three times a day. And where medicine doesn’t [00:32:50] have the answers, and other people make huge claims about [00:32:55] what it is that their product, their supplement, their course, their whatever [00:33:00] can do. We want it to work so desperately that we’re vulnerable to it. And I think [00:33:05] that actually we need to do good research, which is not quite the same [00:33:10] as research. We need to do good research, find out more to protect [00:33:15] the people, because there are an awful lot of people out there selling an awful lot of stuff for an awful lot of money. [00:33:20] Mhm.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Because it’s interesting because as I said to you, like LSC has a dedicated site, Psychedelic [00:33:25] Research Centre, which is super interesting. So I’d love to see. But as you said unfortunately [00:33:30] the problem is where the abuse comes in, where people take these to self-soothe in a way [00:33:35] that without doing the work, you know. And I think that where it becomes more of an interesting [00:33:40] is, you know, when you see the research centres in Switzerland where you have a 70 year old patient with [00:33:45] cancer that then has therapy alongside some of these treatments, and [00:33:50] I think that’s the only way it can really sort of move forward, as you said, with good research. Yeah. You [00:33:55] mentioned that you had cancer. So let’s talk a little bit about that. [00:34:00] How old were you when you got diagnosed? What were your symptoms?

Philippa Kaye: So I was 39 [00:34:05] and I didn’t have the classic symptoms. I had bowel cancer. I call it the shit cancer. It doesn’t have great [00:34:10] PR bowel cancer because it’s brown. Um, and people don’t like talking about it. [00:34:15] Um, I had had three emergency caesarian sections and my appendix [00:34:20] out and an ectopic pregnancy, actually. So I’d had a lot of, um, pelvic surgery. [00:34:25] And after the birth of my youngest, who is now nine, [00:34:30] um, I had some pain in my skull and thought, well, [00:34:35] you’ve got a lot of scar tissue down there, all right? And managed it for [00:34:40] a period of time. And then a few years later, actually, I had much worse pain, but [00:34:45] not constant. I didn’t have a change in my bowel habit. Everyone has a bowel habit. You might go to the toilet once a day. [00:34:50] You might go to the toilet twice a week, six times a day. Whatever. Your normal is your normal. And if that changes for [00:34:55] more than three weeks, your doctor wants to know about it. I didn’t have that. I didn’t have blood in my poo. I didn’t lose weight, I wasn’t tired, nothing. [00:35:00] I just had this pain sometimes before I went to do a poo and [00:35:05] it began to hurt more. And I went to my GP and I said, um, what [00:35:10] do you think is going on? I think it’s related to scar tissue. And she went, well, yeah, [00:35:15] it’s got to be let’s go and see a gynaecologist. And I went to see a gynaecologist [00:35:20] who said, I think your womb is stuck to your bowel, which happens [00:35:25] from scar tissue.

Philippa Kaye: Um, and I’m going to need a bowel surgeon in there with [00:35:30] me. So I think you should go and see a bowel surgeon first. So I went to the bowel surgeon, who went. Well, we better [00:35:35] just be careful and do a scope. And I remember thinking really clearly. Well, that’s annoying, because [00:35:40] I don’t want to take a day off work and do the bowel prep and be on the toilet all day, and then have to take another day off work and [00:35:45] have someone shove a camera up my bum. Um, but I was like, well, all right. Um, [00:35:50] and I remember that they pushed the drugs into my arm and I lay down and thought, okay. [00:35:55] And there’s a screen there for the surgeon to see, and and I [00:36:00] can’t help myself. So I looked at the screen and he put the camera in, and then I saw my cancer. And [00:36:05] because it was eight centimetres up. No, sorry, it was 12cm up. [00:36:10] They left me with eight centimetres of of rectum. And I turned my head and I looked [00:36:15] at the surgeon, and as his eyes came up, I thought, oh, that’s [00:36:20] it. The world changes today. And I [00:36:25] remember really clearly what happened next, which was he couldn’t get past the tumour. [00:36:30] It was too big. And he said and it was hurting and, and [00:36:35] I said, you know, you have to do what you have to do. Don’t worry about it. And he was like, no, we’re going to go and do a CT colon a different [00:36:40] way, which is essentially where they then fill your bowel up. Um, and then they take [00:36:45] like an x ray scan, a CT scan of it.

Philippa Kaye: And he said, but first I need to give [00:36:50] you a tattoo. Now I’m a good Jewish girl, and my parents would never [00:36:55] have let me add a tattoo. And I my mom was waiting outside [00:37:00] to pick me up, and I said to him, what do you mean my mom’s [00:37:05] going to be furious? And he said, I have to tattoo your tumour [00:37:10] from the inside so that when I go and get it from the outside, if it hasn’t gone through the wall, [00:37:15] it had. But he didn’t know that at the time. I won’t be able to see it, so I need to tattoo it. [00:37:20] So he put the tattoo in and, and he said he and [00:37:25] they sort of sorted everything out. And he said, I’m going to be right behind you there, wheeling [00:37:30] you back to the bay. I’m coming to talk to you. My mum [00:37:35] was there before me, before he was, and I turned to my mum and actually, this [00:37:40] is something. I was 39, I had three kids and a husband. Never occurred to me that I was going to tell [00:37:45] my mum that I had cancer. And I turned round to my mum and she could see that I’ve been crying and she said, [00:37:50] what’s the matter? Did it hurt? And I said, mummy, I’ve got cancer and a tattoo. I’m so [00:37:55] sorry. Yeah. Yeah. And that was my primary thought at that exact moment. [00:38:00] Obviously that then passed and that was no longer my primary thought. But for a while I focussed on that bit. [00:38:05]

Rhona Eskander: And so then what was the treatment? So what did [00:38:10] they decide? That was the best port of call.

Philippa Kaye: Um, so then it was all really quick. Really [00:38:15] quick. Um, and I had [00:38:20] a large part of my bowel removed a week later. Um, [00:38:25] so where it was, they took a few centimetres below, but they took lots [00:38:30] above, and that’s a really big operation. And there’s a possibility that you might have a stoma [00:38:35] bag, which I didn’t. Um. And your bowel does not like [00:38:40] being touched. It does not like it. And it needs to heal and rest, but it might [00:38:45] go on strike for a bit too. And you have to learn to eat again. You have to go through a period of time of nothing [00:38:50] at all, and then 30ml of fluid, an hour of water, and then you work your way [00:38:55] up, and then eventually you get to like a broth and then milk, and then and you [00:39:00] work your way up to eating and, um, then I had six months worth of chemotherapy [00:39:05] and then they said, and now we think everything should [00:39:10] be done. Let’s just do a scan to check. And on that scan, they found more lesions. Oh, no. [00:39:15] And we were then January February 2020 just [00:39:20] as COVID’s coming. And they said, well, let’s just hang on. Maybe it’s one of those things. [00:39:25]

Philippa Kaye: And by the time we got to April, there were many more [00:39:30] lesions. And they said, well, we can’t wait. We’re going to need to do a really, really big operation we need to [00:39:35] take out. Bearing in mind the first one was a whopper, we need to take out some of your small intestine and some of your [00:39:40] muscles around your stomach and your back, and we might have to take out [00:39:45] more large bowel and we’re going to put chemotherapy in and blah, blah, blah. And we’re in lockdown. And [00:39:50] they were talking about the recovery after that. And everybody’s kids were at home [00:39:55] and homeschooling. And I thought, I don’t know how I’m going to do this. I literally I don’t know how I’m going [00:40:00] to manage this. And they said, well, we’re also not sure about putting you in hospital [00:40:05] in this exact moment. And so they did a sort of like a mini surgery [00:40:10] in the May time to try and hold things off. And by September we [00:40:15] were about to enter lockdown again and they were like, you can’t wait. And I was in hospital [00:40:20] for 15 days. Ten of those days were in ICU on my own. And [00:40:25] that is undoubtedly the hardest thing [00:40:30] that I have ever done in my life.

Philippa Kaye: What it also taught me, [00:40:35] though, is something that I did not know before. Genuinely, I did not [00:40:40] know before, which is that I am enough. I can be enough for me. [00:40:45] I can be strong enough for me. And you don’t have to go in happy. [00:40:50] You don’t have to be toxically positive the entire time. You [00:40:55] just have to keep stepping and you can do that stomping, [00:41:00] angry. But that is where your strength is. And that really has changed [00:41:05] me to know that. And then after that, when they put the chemo [00:41:10] directly into my pelvis and they removed a whole bunch of stuff. [00:41:15] And then since that, that’s when they said, we’ve got it all and [00:41:20] we think that you’re cancer free. And that was [00:41:25] 2020. And since then, I have [00:41:30] still had surgeries every year to try and fix the issues that the first surgeries produce. [00:41:35] And every January I don’t make a New Year’s resolution. I make a hope. [00:41:40] And that hope is please this year. Let it let my [00:41:45] cancer not come back and let me not have a surgery. Yeah, I haven’t made it yet. [00:41:50] Hopefully this year will be the year.

Rhona Eskander: Honestly, you’re so amazing and I [00:41:55] feel every word because both my parents had cancer a few years [00:42:00] apart from each other. And I think it’s, you know, it’s it’s so difficult. I [00:42:05] mean, I’ve not been in that position, but having a parent in that position, weirdly, I was like, I’d rather have [00:42:10] it than my parents. Um, my dad is like my hero. [00:42:15] So for me, it was the most harrowing thing. And he was in surgery for like 13 [00:42:20] hours. And I remember thinking he he was dead. I’m going to be honest, because I was like, [00:42:25] why haven’t we heard from anyone? Why hasn’t anyone updated me? And I had this huge panic attack, [00:42:30] and he had a radical, radical vasectomy, just everything removed. And that affected his lifestyle [00:42:35] forever. Because you’ve got problems of incontinence, you’ve got problems with, [00:42:40] um, uh, you know, older, you know, your sex life gets affected, [00:42:45] everything gets affected. So he’s had to have multiple surgeries as well to try and rectify it.

Philippa Kaye: But I think that [00:42:50] that well, we know that 1 in 2 of us are going to have cancer at some point in our lives. That means [00:42:55] everybody is going to be affected by it, because we’re all going to know somebody with it or have it or, um, [00:43:00] you know, have a work colleague or whatever that may be.

Rhona Eskander: Why? Why do you think the numbers have increased even though [00:43:05] our lifestyles are better?

Philippa Kaye: So I think there’s a number of I’m going to come back to that. But I think [00:43:10] that we are getting better at diagnosing cancer. We are getting better at treating cancer, and that means that more of us are [00:43:15] either going to survive it or live with it. Okay. What we’re not good at, because we’re not good enough at getting [00:43:20] people to come forward with the symptoms in the first place, and attendance at screening isn’t high enough. [00:43:25] And all of these things, but what we’re really not good at is talking about survivorship and what you’re left with. What are [00:43:30] you left with if you live with a stoma, which sorry, which can be life changing [00:43:35] and life saving, what are you left with if you have low anterior resection syndrome because [00:43:40] you’ve had most of your bowel removed and I can’t wait for the toilet. And what are you left [00:43:45] with? If you’re put into a premature menopause, or that your brain is affected, or [00:43:50] you have neuropathy and you can’t feel your hands and feet or. Right, and we don’t talk about that, all [00:43:55] of those things, and we need to do much better at those. Why do I think that more people are having cancer? I think [00:44:00] there’s a number of reasons here. There’s two things we know that cancer in young people [00:44:05] is getting more common and in particular actually around bowel cancer.

Philippa Kaye: And bowel [00:44:10] cancer is a cancer where they think that there are a significant number of patients [00:44:15] and cases that could be prevented from lifestyle now. Mine was found out to be genetic, which [00:44:20] in itself has implications because when they gene tested me and [00:44:25] they found the gene that they doubled my risk of bowel cancer. So [00:44:30] there’s the concern not only is my cancer going to come back, but am I going to get a new bowel one because my [00:44:35] genes haven’t changed, but also it has implications for the rest of my family, right? [00:44:40] Because if I’m a carrier, yes, I could be the first mutation, but maybe my siblings. What about my [00:44:45] kids? And so you make a decision for yourself. Yes. I want to know because [00:44:50] of the links with other cancers and various other things. But this knowledge then goes to other people [00:44:55] as well. But we know, for example, that processed [00:45:00] meat and red meat and alcohol and smoking and obesity and [00:45:05] sedentary lifestyles, all of those things contribute to cancers. But we also have [00:45:10] to remember that when we talk about 150 years ago, most [00:45:15] people were likely to die either at birth or in the first couple [00:45:20] of years of life. And if you’re a woman and you made it past childhood, your next time [00:45:25] that you’re most likely to die was during childbirth, right? So [00:45:30] and then if you manage to get past that, then your life expectancy was sort of not [00:45:35] so significantly lower.

Philippa Kaye: But when you then look at life expectancy overall in the Victorian times, [00:45:40] you say, well, those numbers are much lower. We’re living much longer. Are we? Yes, we are, but [00:45:45] but those numbers are skewed because so many people died in childbirth or [00:45:50] at and around birth, that it means that the average, because this is how maths work [00:45:55] works, gets a lot younger. And so we are now thankfully [00:46:00] more likely to survive childhood with vaccines and nutrition and clean water. We [00:46:05] are now thankfully more likely to survive childbirth with good antenatal care and care on the labour [00:46:10] wards, etc. etc. which means that more of us are going to be hitting points where we can get these things [00:46:15] and and we need to do better at prevention. [00:46:20] And some things around prevention are not sexy and exciting, [00:46:25] but they do work. And we know, for example, that there [00:46:30] is no safe amount of alcohol to drink. Well, no one wants to hear that, but that is [00:46:35] true. Alcohol is a carcinogen. We know that physical [00:46:40] activity decreases your risk of cancer. It’s a bit boring, isn’t it? People [00:46:45] would prefer to do something else, but actually those are the things that would make a [00:46:50] huge difference.

Rhona Eskander: So lots of things to unpack. First of all, my partner says this all the time because [00:46:55] he’s reading a book on Alexandria, some half Egyptian. I don’t know if you knew that, but he’s reading a book in Alexandria. He’s really excited. We’re going [00:47:00] to Egypt. He’s never been. And he’s fascinated by Alexander the Great. And I talk about, like, [00:47:05] the ancient Egyptians because the ancient Egyptians were super progressive in medicine, I’m sure you know, and I’m like, yeah, [00:47:10] but no one really lived that long. He was like, no, that’s a misconception. He’s like, because people the time that we’re going [00:47:15] to die was in, you know, as you said, childbirth or when they were really young. [00:47:20] And then actually lots of people were living till they were like 70 or whatever, but it’s skewed [00:47:25] numbers. So I love the fact that you’ve brought up that point. One thing that becomes [00:47:30] apparent to me is, you know, for me, what really worries me as a society as [00:47:35] a whole is that we want the easy way out. I once read Something [00:47:40] Beautiful, an article by Mark Manson. He wrote the book The Subtle Art of Not Giving [00:47:45] a Fuck. I don’t know if you’ve read it, you know, and he wrote an amazing article [00:47:50] about New Year’s resolutions and happiness as a whole. And one thing that he brought [00:47:55] up, which I really loved in the article that I read, is that if you ask most people, what do they want [00:48:00] in life? They will say, I just want to be happy.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, [00:48:05] what does that look like? I just want a nice partner. I want to go on nice holidays. I want [00:48:10] a job that I like. I want enough money to enjoy my life. I want great sex. They say all these things. [00:48:15] He says, well, it’s all very well saying that things. But the question that we really need to pose is, [00:48:20] how much are you willing to suffer for what you want? So what I mean by [00:48:25] that is you could say, I want to be a really successful doctor like Philippa, have a platform, be on [00:48:30] TV, go into a work environment where I love treating patients, or I want to be like Rhona and [00:48:35] have my own dental practice. But what they don’t understand. Do you want to do a 60 hour week at some point [00:48:40] in your life? Do you want to sacrifice time with your friends and family or your social life? So [00:48:45] when you start asking those questions, because usually there is so much that goes behind [00:48:50] requiring the life that you want, most people don’t want to do that, and that’s [00:48:55] the same. There’s a similarity in what you said because you said, are you willing not to drink alcohol? Are [00:49:00] you willing to wake up early to exercise or go after work? Are you willing to make healthier choices? [00:49:05] And most people want.

Rhona Eskander: That brings me on to a question that perhaps [00:49:10] is going off onto another tangent. But with regards to health, i.e. the eating [00:49:15] less and exercising more, the easy way out seems to be ozempic [00:49:20] or these weight limiting drugs. Now they have their place, [00:49:25] as we know, with people that actually need them. But what I’m seeing more and more, especially because [00:49:30] I’m in the world of social media, where aesthetics and the way you look and dropping [00:49:35] 2 or 3 kilos makes you look and feel better is something [00:49:40] that people are doing. And I have even models and influencers admitting to me in my practice that they’re taking [00:49:45] it. They’re already a size eight. We’re not talking about various people now. Do they live a [00:49:50] healthy lifestyle? No. They party, they drink, they take drugs. Et cetera. Et cetera. [00:49:55] So what is your view on the weight loss injections? Where do you think it’s going? [00:50:00] Is it being regulated? I’d love to know, because. And could it have a positive impact? [00:50:05] Because it is limiting your ability to eat and drink alcohol, [00:50:10] etc.. So could there be a positive benefit?

Philippa Kaye: And let me just answer the first, first bit, [00:50:15] which is I think that that with regards [00:50:20] to happiness, satisfaction is not quite the same as happiness. And I think [00:50:25] that the answer to all of that is to be able to find the joy in the tiniest [00:50:30] of things, to be able to find the joy in sitting under a tree and watching the sunlight through [00:50:35] the leaves, to be able to be present in any moment and [00:50:40] actually find the peace within that, and to [00:50:45] be satisfied and say, this is enough for right now. I have enough [00:50:50] and not to constantly be grasping for the next, the next, the next. And that, [00:50:55] for me is the answer to where where happiness is for me. That’s not the same for everybody [00:51:00] else. Um, I think that weight loss drugs are [00:51:05] saying something very interesting about society. Yes. Let’s [00:51:10] start with the fact that obesity is a chronic disease, which [00:51:15] is mostly genetic, with over a thousand genes involved. [00:51:20] Epigenetics is how your environment shapes your genes, and environment absolutely [00:51:25] plays a role in whether or not these genes express. But we have been brought up in a society [00:51:30] which has a huge amount of weight stigma. Every book you’ve [00:51:35] ever read or film you’ve ever seen, the bully is a fat kid. A fat, stupid [00:51:40] kid, right? When you look at a picture in the newspaper and [00:51:45] you are looking at someone with obesity, they have a grumpy face.

Philippa Kaye: We are not shown, [00:51:50] and that weight stigma means we have evidence to say that if you have obesity, [00:51:55] you are less likely to have a front facing job, to be a receptionist, to work in a shop, right? You [00:52:00] are less likely to attend your screening programs. You are going to have worse mental health [00:52:05] as well as physical health. The stigma about obesity is very real [00:52:10] and medicine and the government have not helped us, right? We put all the blame and [00:52:15] the onus on these people when actually no one is telling the truth, which is losing [00:52:20] weight is really hard, really hard. Keeping that weight off is really hard. When [00:52:25] your metabolic set point and all of your hormones are fighting to maintain the weight that [00:52:30] you have. And so these medications are an [00:52:35] absolute game changer in the world of obesity and diabetes, when up until [00:52:40] then, the only thing which has evidence for working is surgery, which is life [00:52:45] changing surgery. And now these medicines there is not evidence for any diet [00:52:50] in the long term. So people lose weight and they put it back on. [00:52:55] Often putting on a little bit more and then they lose weight.

Philippa Kaye: And that yo yo dieting has a real effect [00:53:00] on the body. So we need to be honest with patients and say, I see you [00:53:05] and it’s hard and it’s not your fault. Let’s just start with that. And actually when you do that with patients, [00:53:10] they are almost so overwhelmed by that because [00:53:15] I am yet to meet a patient who has obesity, who doesn’t know [00:53:20] that they have obesity, who hasn’t tried absolutely everything that they can over the years, [00:53:25] every diet, every everything because they are desperate to [00:53:30] lose that weight. So let’s be honest and say, I see you. It’s really hard and society has not [00:53:35] helped you at all. And these medicines have a huge place within that [00:53:40] and that access should be easier. There [00:53:45] is also a risk for every medicine that we have, every [00:53:50] choice that we make. When you cross the road, I need to cross. The benefit of crossing this road is I will be on the [00:53:55] other side. The risk is a car might hit me, right? Everything that you do is [00:54:00] a weighing up of the positives and the negatives. And when we are talking about [00:54:05] obesity, the potential benefits of these medications are huge. [00:54:10] And in those people it might be worth the potential [00:54:15] side effects the nausea, the vomiting, the diarrhoea, the abdominal pain, right, the [00:54:20] being on them long term, all of those things as your weight gets less [00:54:25] and less and less and less and less.

Philippa Kaye: And now we’re talking about someone with a healthy BMI. Well, hang on, what’s the benefit [00:54:30] that I’m getting physiologically in my body in [00:54:35] order to balance with these risks? Well, my risk benefit ratio changes. [00:54:40] And these medications are not licensed for use in people [00:54:45] with a low BMI and the potential for misuse is [00:54:50] huge and we are seeing it. We are seeing young girls going to A&E with severe abdominal [00:54:55] pain. We are seeing young girls with eating disorders who [00:55:00] are, you know, standing on a scale with a bunch of rucksack with weights [00:55:05] on their back in order to say, oh, but I am this weight and [00:55:10] there definitely needs to be regulation around misuse. [00:55:15] That doesn’t take it away from the huge group of people [00:55:20] that need it. And then we need to separate. Sorry. We need to separate [00:55:25] the idea of weight from physical [00:55:30] activity and health because I don’t care what [00:55:35] your size is, physical activity is beneficial. And so [00:55:40] people who say, well, if you’re over, if you have overweight, if you have obesity, you [00:55:45] should just move more. Then you’ll lose weight. No, you should just move more. Full stop. It’s good for you. [00:55:50]

Rhona Eskander: But this is the thing. Like. And it’s like, I’m going to get emotional about this because I [00:55:55] cannot tell you that. Like, as a child, I was pretty confident little [00:56:00] girl. And I kind of loved my body because, you know, you don’t come out of the womb hating your body. [00:56:05] My mother was from a middle eastern background with some [00:56:10] European blood in her as well. We’ve got my grandmother. My great grandmother was German, um, and [00:56:15] my mom was really tall. She was a model. She also had her own eating disorder, went off and [00:56:20] did nutrition. Kind of healed herself through that. Um, but I think that there was always [00:56:25] this fascination with the kind of tall, white, blonde, skinny person. [00:56:30] And so, like, you know, there were comments that were made from my parents, you know, who typically, [00:56:35] again, come from a middle eastern background but desperately want to fit into this kind of like European setting. [00:56:40] I didn’t care, and it wasn’t until I went to university and all the girls who were boarding school [00:56:45] girls who all had eating disorders. I never had an eating because I went to a school in Queens College, [00:56:50] you know, you know London very well. Multicultural London is vast. [00:56:55] You know, I didn’t have a problem. I am Middle Eastern. My body shape is Middle Eastern, small [00:57:00] top, half hips and bum. Like that was just a thing. And then everyone told [00:57:05] me I was overweight. And then I got asked to do modelling. And then everyone was like, well, you can’t.

Rhona Eskander: You’re too big to go [00:57:10] to this casting. You’re too. And I was like, okay, so I developed an eating disorder. And the problem [00:57:15] was, is that everything around me, of course, the media perpetuated an [00:57:20] idea that I was big. Bridget Jones was deemed as being big. She was not big. She was eight [00:57:25] stone, I think even or nine stone in Bridget Jones. You know, Britney Spears, [00:57:30] the most talked about thing was when she put on weight. Special K diets eat cereal like [00:57:35] once a day, you know, so the idea that the smaller you are, [00:57:40] the better you are was heavily ingrained. And unfortunately, as I dropped weight, I [00:57:45] look. People told me I looked better, and I think that I was sort of grateful for the Kardashians [00:57:50] in a way I can’t really. I don’t really like them in general because suddenly I was like, oh, having [00:57:55] hips and bums is cool. Do you know what I mean? Like suddenly, suddenly, suddenly, I was okay to have [00:58:00] instead of being told to cover up that part of my body, I could go to the gym feeling okay, [00:58:05] and now I’m seeing a regression again, that people are like, no, [00:58:10] again, you know, being waif thin and Kate Moss style. And I think that’s where [00:58:15] the danger I’m seeing. And I think, again, you’re having celebrities endorsing their fitness program after, um, [00:58:20] losing seven kilos in a week. Sorry, you’re on Ozempic. You know, it’s obvious no [00:58:25] one loses seven kilos.

Philippa Kaye: Even if you’re even if you’re not on Ozempic. You have a personal [00:58:30] trainer every day and you have a personalised meals, and you do not [00:58:35] have to get three buses to work, and you don’t live in a food desert [00:58:40] where you have to get a bus to go to a supermarket, and you can only have what you can carry and you can [00:58:45] only afford what you can afford. And you’re working three jobs and you’ve got kids and and and these [00:58:50] are not you know, we’re comparing apples and oranges. There are fashions and trends in everything [00:58:55] with regards to women, from pubic hair to body size. [00:59:00] What that means is you will never, ever, always be the ideal. [00:59:05] And we need to learn to separate ourselves from that. And that is incredibly [00:59:10] difficult. And as someone who’s on the telly, the [00:59:15] first time that I was asked to do a photo shoot for a magazine I [00:59:20] was writing for, and I went to this place and the [00:59:25] the magazine, um, brand also had one [00:59:30] of those lads mags, and the studio was shooting, um, a bikini [00:59:35] shoot and then me straight after. And I remember walking in and seeing a [00:59:40] rack of bikinis thinking, yo, I’m a doctor. No way. I’m literally here [00:59:45] for like, the shot of me at the top of my column. Yeah. What is going on? And, [00:59:50] um, somebody put makeup on my face and somebody told me what to wear. And [00:59:55] then an editor came over, looked at a still of my photo and said, she looks too young. [01:00:00] Make her look older. She looks like she she looks like she they won’t take her seriously enough. And I remember [01:00:05] thinking, in my job, no one has ever made a comment about what I look like, [01:00:10] ever. And you step into this world where what you look like matters.

Rhona Eskander: You [01:00:15] say that, but I think I have been judged since I applied for dental school. And I say that because, [01:00:20] look, I was telling I had an I had a chat with one of my friends who’s a journalist [01:00:25] yesterday, and I was like, look, I really struggle because by nature I’ve always loved colour, I’ve always [01:00:30] loved getting dressed up. And I kind of got coined by the the media as the glamorous [01:00:35] dentist. And I just think that that doesn’t necessarily have a connotation [01:00:40] of being taken seriousness. Yeah. And I think like I remember as well, I was asked [01:00:45] to do a big campaign for a big brand because I had endorsed their medical product [01:00:50] so well because I truly believed in it. Patients loved it, they loved everything I was doing. And I turned up for the photo [01:00:55] shoot and they were like, but can you, like, tone down the face? I was wearing mascara. I’m like, this is my [01:01:00] face. Like, literally, this is my face. My features are the way they are because I’m Middle Eastern and [01:01:05] I can’t tone it down. Like, even when I’m not wearing.

Philippa Kaye: Makeup, but in the NHS, no one ever said, [01:01:10] oh, you look a bit pale today. You did a night shift like, no, no, no. Yeah, I hear you.

Rhona Eskander: I [01:01:15] hear you. But there was certainly look, I went for my Bristol interview and I’ll never forget it, you know. And again [01:01:20] I think I wore a colourful suit and everything like that. And I think that they had made a comment that [01:01:25] I probably wasn’t suitable to become a dentist. And I didn’t get into the dental school, and [01:01:30] I went to my Leeds University completely dressed in the way that I wouldn’t dress. You know, I wore a really dowdy [01:01:35] black suit. I scrape my hair back and I just talked about the NHS essentially, [01:01:40] you know, and I got a place, but I knew that I was a fraud in a way, because what I presented in the interview [01:01:45] was what I knew they wanted to hear, and to a degree, perhaps in interviews and things like [01:01:50] that, you know, we need to do that. But I think throughout dental school, there was always these comments from people [01:01:55] about the way that I look or about what I was wearing and so forth. Social [01:02:00] media has given me the freedom to have expression. You know, the one thing is that I have creative [01:02:05] expression to be like, you know what? I am a bit glam, but I also know my stuff. [01:02:10] I also love my patients, and I think, you know, even the ability to show [01:02:15] empathy is something that’s challenged by colleagues. You’re amazing at it. I [01:02:20] talk about it all the time. I’m not afraid to cry on camera. You clearly aren’t either. But [01:02:25] I’ve had medical colleagues and go, but if a patient sees you like that online, they might think that [01:02:30] you’re not stable enough to treat them. And I’m like, I disagree.

Philippa Kaye: So I think that humanises you. Yeah. Patients [01:02:35] like to see the human. But as doctors, we have to be very careful of how [01:02:40] much you give. Yeah. Because if you give a little piece of yourself every [01:02:45] single consultation ten minutes apart, there is nothing [01:02:50] left for you. Yeah. So in some ways, my [01:02:55] strong lipstick is part of my armour. Yeah. Put it on. And I am doctor K, right. [01:03:00] And in some ways it does that. But I think that we would never be [01:03:05] having this conversation if we were two men. Yeah. And as soon as you [01:03:10] change the word women to men. If that feels weird. [01:03:15] No, we wouldn’t do that if we were two men. And maybe I’m generalising. There will be some. But, you [01:03:20] know, in general, then there’s a sexism issue, right? That [01:03:25] we don’t judge people in the same way. I have had patients stand [01:03:30] at my at my door when I’ve opened my door and called a name and they’ve said, oh, [01:03:35] but I wanted to see doctor K. I am doctor K. You don’t look like doctor K. [01:03:40] Oh. Professional makeup artist didn’t do it. I didn’t do my makeup this morning. And I sort [01:03:45] of say jokingly, no, that’s me. Just not on breakfast TV this morning. Oh, [01:03:50] you’re like, let’s talk about you, shall we? Yeah. People [01:03:55] feel that they that they have a right to comment. I have two boys and a girl. When [01:04:00] I had a girl straight away.

Philippa Kaye: Day one. Oh, [01:04:05] is she your princess? And my husband would say no, she’s our engineer. Mhm. And they make [01:04:10] people make comments about little girls in the way that they don’t make comments about little boys. [01:04:15] Don’t you look pretty today. Haven’t you got a nice dress on. Not. [01:04:20] Aren’t you so strong. Look at you running. Look at what your body can do for you. [01:04:25] You know all of those things. And that messaging starts so young, so young, and [01:04:30] it’s so ingrained. And it’s actually really difficult for us to fight that [01:04:35] constantly. Yeah, because it is a constant. It’s not like you can [01:04:40] just feel good about yourself today and then it’s all okay. These things are a constant battle. And then I think [01:04:45] if you add something like menopause into the mix. Yeah. Where there are changes [01:04:50] in your body and suddenly you feel the weight of society saying, [01:04:55] well, hang on, you’re supposed to give us children and look good, and now you can’t give us children, and you [01:05:00] know, you’re a bit wrinkly and your boobs are saggy. And it’s not a wonder that [01:05:05] aside from the physiological changes that are happening in your body and to your mind, [01:05:10] that society puts a whole other pressure on you. And that is one of the reasons why I find women’s health so fascinating, [01:05:15] because you can’t separate it from society and culture, and sometimes [01:05:20] religion too. So is that what drew.

Rhona Eskander: You to writing your book about menopause?

Philippa Kaye: Um, [01:05:25] so I wrote my first book about menopause came out a few years ago, and that [01:05:30] was purely born out of the need of the women that were walking through my door. And [01:05:35] that was sort of five, six years ago that I was writing it [01:05:40] and it wasn’t talked about at all. Um, and there was such a knowledge gap. [01:05:45] And, and whilst we may be better in some groups [01:05:50] at talking about it, actually, when we went up and down the country on the this morning menopause bus, [01:05:55] the question I was asked more than any other was what is the menopause? How am I going to know if I’m in it? So we think [01:06:00] that we’re writing about it and talking about it all the time, but actually often we aren’t. Um, or [01:06:05] that it’s not getting to everybody. Um, and, and so the reason [01:06:10] that I wrote this book was because not everybody wants to read like an essay based book. [01:06:15] People learn in different ways. And I wanted something that was full of pictures and infographics [01:06:20] and diagrams that made things really clear, but also [01:06:25] that menopause is not a book, is not a subject which is just for women [01:06:30] in their 40s that everybody needs to know about women’s health.

Rhona Eskander: So [01:06:35] tell me as well. So what are the hormonal changes that happens during menopause?

Philippa Kaye: Got to go back to [01:06:40] GCSE biology just a little bit for people listening. The menstrual cycle comes from your stimulated [01:06:45] by hormones in your brain tells your ovaries come on, I’d like you to mature an egg. The ovary [01:06:50] produces oestrogen and then there will be a spike in a hormone in the brain. Out [01:06:55] comes an egg, and the shell of that egg produces progesterone. [01:07:00] And the egg travels down the fallopian tube, waiting for Mr. Sperm [01:07:05] to come along and fertilise it. Implant. Be pregnant. And if you’re not, [01:07:10] if there is no sperm fertilisation doesn’t take place, then the hormone [01:07:15] levels will begin to fall and the egg and the lining of the womb will shed in your period. And [01:07:20] we start again. But you are born with all the eggs you are ever going to have. And actually, [01:07:25] actually, to me, this is one of the most gobsmacking facts ever. The egg that you were made from [01:07:30] was formed in your grandmother’s womb because the egg that you came from was [01:07:35] formed when your mother was developing in your grandmother. And that’s why if your grandmother [01:07:40] drank, it can affect you. And so you’re born with all the eggs [01:07:45] you’re ever going to have. You lose lots of them even before puberty. And although only one, sometimes [01:07:50] two eggs mature each month, you actually lose about a thousand.

Philippa Kaye: And at some point they [01:07:55] run out. And when they run out, the menstrual cycle is not going to restart again. [01:08:00] And you go through the menopause. It literally means the last period. What [01:08:05] that means is that your brain produces high levels of the hormones trying to kick [01:08:10] start it, like yelling at your ovaries, let’s go! But the levels of oestrogen and progesterone [01:08:15] fall, and that is what causes the symptoms of [01:08:20] the menopause. Now we have a medical word for the day that you started your period. That’s called menarche. Menopause [01:08:25] means the last period. We can’t tell that you’ve been through it generally until you haven’t had a bleed for for 12 [01:08:30] months. After that point, there is no such thing as one last bleed. If you bleed after not [01:08:35] having bled for 12 months, you must always go to the doctor. But, um, just [01:08:40] as starting your period was just one point during puberty, the lead up [01:08:45] to that last period has lots of changes, and it’s called the perimenopause. [01:08:50] And you can have symptoms for years before that last period and for years afterwards. [01:08:55] And those symptoms are not just related to your [01:09:00] womb. They can affect your whole body.

Rhona Eskander: And again, because people really [01:09:05] don’t talk about it. And I think I only heard of the term perimenopause, I promise you in the last like 3 or 4 [01:09:10] years, because a few people told me about that in the office. I [01:09:15] know that we also did an Instagram Live, which is, by the way, still available on my [01:09:20] profile on Instagram if anyone wants to look at it. I know a lot of people have asked this. [01:09:25] I know we’ve discussed this before. Can you delay menopause, or is there anything that makes menopause [01:09:30] onset earlier for some people than others?

Philippa Kaye: Yes. Um, so [01:09:35] if you smoke, you’re likely to go through menopause. On [01:09:40] average a couple of years earlier than people who don’t. We’re not exactly sure why, but we know that [01:09:45] smoking fills up your arteries, so maybe it fills up the blood supply to the ovaries as well. And [01:09:50] the average age of the menopause in studies is 51. But that is actually the average [01:09:55] age of Caucasian women in the Northern Hemisphere. And we know that black women are likely to go through a little bit earlier [01:10:00] than that, and that you can have symptoms for up to a decade before. Um, and [01:10:05] there is some evidence around things like legumes [01:10:10] might make a difference about oils might make a difference, but [01:10:15] actually we think it’s mostly genetic. Aside from the smoking about when you are [01:10:20] going to go through and if you have a family history of a premature or an early menopause, then [01:10:25] you’re more likely to have an early menopause yourself. If we take out your womb, even though we’ve left [01:10:30] the ovaries in, you also are likely to go through a slightly earlier menopause. But there is no [01:10:35] medicine that I have to delay when you’re going to run out of eggs. And [01:10:40] so people say, well, I’ve got the pill or I’m on the coil or whatever. [01:10:45] No, it might cover up the symptoms, but you’re going to run out of eggs when you run out of eggs. [01:10:50]

Rhona Eskander: What about stress?

Philippa Kaye: So stress can affect your [01:10:55] menstrual cycle. But that isn’t the same as affecting [01:11:00] when you’re going to go through the menopause. So I can turn off your menstrual cycle using [01:11:05] medications. That doesn’t mean that I’m saving those eggs for later. [01:11:10] And that doesn’t seem to work. Which then begs the question, okay, if you have [01:11:15] IVF and we stimulate loads of eggs in a month, does that mean you’re going to have a menopause earlier? [01:11:20] It doesn’t seem to do that. And Um, and, you know, yes, we absolutely do need more [01:11:25] research. But it comes back to the fact that about a thousand eggs have the potential to mature each month. [01:11:30] And maybe in IVF, we’re just making more of them mature. Um, than than would naturally. [01:11:35] Um, but there there is [01:11:40] definitely harm related to smoking. We also know that people who do not exercise, [01:11:45] who drink alcohol, who have obesity, are going to have worse, are more likely to have worse perimenopause [01:11:50] symptoms when they come. But I think that what we need to do is change [01:11:55] the mindset from I must delay the menopause. Well, why do you want to delay it? Well, because [01:12:00] I want to be young and I want to have good skin and I don’t want to have [01:12:05] symptoms to, well, hang on, you can have all of those things and be happy and be well [01:12:10] and be healthy after the menopause. Because on average, women in this country live about a third [01:12:15] of their lives after the menopause. And that might change to half of your life after the menopause [01:12:20] and, you know, in 100 years time. So actually, maybe we need to ask a different [01:12:25] question, which is how do I be well and healthy afterwards as opposed to trying to put it off? [01:12:30]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I love that. And I think that’s a really beautiful way to end it. I could talk to you about so [01:12:35] many things. I think we’re going to have to do a second episode with you, Philippa, because you are [01:12:40] so wonderful. For those listening, could you please tell them the name of the book and where they can also [01:12:45] get it?

Philippa Kaye: So the book is called The Science of Menopause. It’s published by Dorling Kindersley and you can get [01:12:50] it anywhere and everywhere online and in bookshops. And I am am [01:12:55] on social media at Doctor Philip. Okay.

Rhona Eskander: Perfect. Thank you so much. This has been so [01:13:00] lovely and thank you for your honesty and vulnerability. She’s an absolute force, so I recommend that you do follow [01:13:05] her, because I’ve gained a plethora of knowledge from just following her and, you know, had the honour [01:13:10] of also being in her presence. So thank you guys, and don’t forget to like and subscribe to my [01:13:15] YouTube as well so that you can get the long form videos. Okay, see you next time. Bye bye. [01:13:20]

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system. Join [00:00:05] us for online training, where I’ll take you through everything you need to know about how to [00:00:10] assess a case quickly, how to use the system, how to talk to patients. Because when [00:00:15] you know you can deliver brilliant results, it’s so much easier to talk about it. To book your course, which takes [00:00:20] only an hour. It’s completely free. Visit enlighten online training.com. [00:00:25] Now let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The podcast [00:00:35] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:40] hosts Payman Langroudi [00:00:45] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: Working for a corporate. [00:00:50] In this case, working for my dentist. Um, it’s going to be an interesting [00:00:55] podcast. We’ve got we’ve got a few people working at my dentist at different levels in different practices, [00:01:00] and try to get the sort of the story of how it is to work for [00:01:05] them and how it is to work for a corporate in general, and obviously in the normal way [00:01:10] that we do with this podcast. Sort of the career story of the people. So it gives me great pleasure [00:01:15] to invite or to to welcome Claire Stenhouse onto the podcast. Claire is a [00:01:20] hygienist therapist at my dentist in Skegness. In Skegness. [00:01:25] Yeah. Well done for coming all this way, Claire. Okay. Hey, um, I [00:01:30] think we’ve got to start with, you know, Claire, you do a lot of, uh, teeth whitening.

Claire Stenhouse: I do. [00:01:35]

Payman Langroudi: Which is. Which is why I’m so interested in you. Um. And you are a therapist, too. [00:01:40]

Claire Stenhouse: I am.

Payman Langroudi: And yet we have a lot of hygienists who don’t get involved [00:01:45] in things outside of just hygiene.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So in [00:01:50] your career, was there a moment where you decided you were going to sort of branch out? [00:01:55]

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah, I mean, I typically do a lot of [00:02:00] National Health Service fill ins. Um, that’s my normal day.

Payman Langroudi: Adults as.

Claire Stenhouse: Well. Adults [00:02:05] and children. And, uh. I suppose [00:02:10] doing National Health Service work is what I love doing. But all [00:02:15] day, every day it gets a bit tedious. So that’s why I decided that I wanted to branch out a little [00:02:20] bit. And then, of course, I got the call from Michelle Holmes asking if I wanted to [00:02:25] trial the enlighten, and it’s just all gone from there. Really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but why is it that you [00:02:30] find it so easy to talk to patients about the colour of their teeth, whereas we’ve [00:02:35] got loads of even dentists who really worry about it?

Claire Stenhouse: I think the [00:02:40] hygiene side of that brings that along quite nicely, because [00:02:45] people come in saying that they’ve got a lot of staining on the teeth, so then you’ve got the opportunity [00:02:50] to talk to them about having an airflow or having whitening. If they want something more Something more [00:02:55] pertinent than they can have the whitening done. So I think the hygiene side of that makes [00:03:00] it a lot easier to do the whitening.

Payman Langroudi: So is that typically the kind of patient that you end up whitening, someone who’s got the recurrent [00:03:05] staining? Yeah, because when I was a dentist, that was obvious. It seems so obvious, isn’t it? Someone’s got some imbrication [00:03:10] in the lowest. Yeah. Constantly staining, constantly having to come and have it cleaned off. Why [00:03:15] don’t we just make you some trays so that you don’t have this problem again? Yeah, yeah, it seems so obvious, isn’t it?

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah, it is quite [00:03:20] obvious. And I always say when we’re doing an air flow, I always say it’s not going to whiten your teeth, it’s just going to brighten [00:03:25] your teeth. So if you’d like them whitening, the only way forward is to obviously have them whitened. [00:03:30] And that’s how we go from there.

Payman Langroudi: And were you doing any whitening before enlighten.

Claire Stenhouse: I used to do [00:03:35] the Philips Zoom. Yeah. Um I did quite a few cases of that to be honest, but.

Payman Langroudi: They were already [00:03:40] kind of in that mode.

Claire Stenhouse: Already. Yeah, but that took two hours. So it was full. [00:03:45] Yeah. Full on. Yeah. So that was two hours of my day list gone. [00:03:50] Um, so yeah. Then enlighten just seems to work for us.

Payman Langroudi: And so [00:03:55] what percentage of your work now is non-scaling Polish? Is it the majority [00:04:00] of your work?

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I’d say 6040. So 40. [00:04:05] Cleaning 60. Everything else? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so in a typical day, [00:04:10] you’re doing how many fillings?

Claire Stenhouse: Ten.

[TRANSITION]: Maybe ten fillings a day.

Claire Stenhouse: Ten fillings [00:04:15] a day. Well, ten patients that need fillings a day. And then private work on top of that. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so [00:04:20] what happens when when a patient comes in. How do they end up with you? Does a dentist push [00:04:25] them towards you or.

Claire Stenhouse: So they’ll come in for a check-up with the dentist and then they’ll prescribe the treatment [00:04:30] to the therapist? However, current, um, regulations [00:04:35] have come in. Now that we don’t need a prescription, we can work to our own initiative so we can do check-ups as well. Now. [00:04:40] Oh, right. Yeah. We, um, we’ve got exemptions from local anaesthetic. We’ve got exemptions [00:04:45] from fluoride varnish. The only thing we haven’t got exemptions from is a whitening [00:04:50] prescription.

Payman Langroudi: You need a need a prescription.

Claire Stenhouse: Still need a prescription for that. But yeah, for a local anaesthetic and [00:04:55] fluoride varnish. We don’t need a prescription anymore.

Payman Langroudi: And how about that? Is there a moment where someone has to explain [00:05:00] to the patient that you’re a therapist, not a dentist?

Claire Stenhouse: Not anymore. Because I’ve been there for 15 years and we don’t take [00:05:05] on new patients. So all the patients know that I am a therapist and not a dentist. [00:05:10]

Payman Langroudi: Um, that conversation must have to happen at some point.

Claire Stenhouse: It does. So what did you say?

Payman Langroudi: What [00:05:15] did you say about it?

Claire Stenhouse: I don’t. So, um, we trained with the dentists [00:05:20] at dental school. We did a lot of our, um, lessons with the dentists at dental school. [00:05:25] But then the dentists go on and do the more complex work than the therapists. [00:05:30] So that’s how we try to explain it. Um, which, yeah, a lot of patients are more [00:05:35] than happy with.

Payman Langroudi: And forgive me for not really knowing, but what happens? Let’s say you’re doing an [00:05:40] mod and it suddenly turns very, very deep. Do you stop and.

Claire Stenhouse: Call [00:05:45] the dentist? I’m very, very lucky at my practice that I can call one of the dentists through at any point [00:05:50] for advice. So yes, I’ll sometimes put a temporary in and then refer it back to the dentist. [00:05:55] Book an appointment with a dentist. But I’m very lucky in the fact that most of them will just come through there [00:06:00] and then and have a look for me and tell me next stage.

Payman Langroudi: And we had you on mini [00:06:05] smile makeover for the anterior composites.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re going to come again [00:06:10] and all that. But do you have any further have you had any further training on restorative [00:06:15] after your course?

Claire Stenhouse: No. Just no. Just the mini smile makeover.

Payman Langroudi: So for posteriors, [00:06:20] you for instance, do you sectional matrices, do you use rubber dam. What do you.

Claire Stenhouse: Do. So I [00:06:25] normally on posterior teeth I’m working on the NHS so I’m afraid it’s a good old fashioned [00:06:30] amalgam or amalgam. Yeah we still use we’re still. Yeah we’re still on amalgam. [00:06:35]

Payman Langroudi: So you’re not doing any private therapy fillings.

Claire Stenhouse: Occasionally. [00:06:40] Not very. So if a patient comes in and they’d like a composite filling, then I do offer them, um, [00:06:45] the chance of having a private one. But the thing is, I’m not that confident with [00:06:50] them, to be honest. So I’m going to come back on the anterior course and then maybe go [00:06:55] on posterior.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you know, what we found was I don’t know if by the time you came we’d stopped doing it yet, [00:07:00] but we used to give a prize for the best.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. You did.

Payman Langroudi: And therapists and therapists constantly winning [00:07:05] that prize. Now, I don’t know if it’s a self-selecting thing, because the kind of therapist who [00:07:10] pays £1,000 to come on a composite course might be the kind who’s really into it.

Claire Stenhouse: Really into it. Yeah. [00:07:15]

Payman Langroudi: For whatever reason it is, the therapist is doing better work than the dentist.

Claire Stenhouse: Told me that last time. [00:07:20] Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which is. Which is interesting.

Claire Stenhouse: When I come on the fifth and sixth, sixth and seventh, I will try my hardest [00:07:25] to to win that prize.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about your journey into therapy. [00:07:30] Were you a dental nurse?

Claire Stenhouse: 17 years? Yeah, as a dental nurse.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what made you decide [00:07:35] 17 years in to do? Make make the change.

Claire Stenhouse: I went to my boss one day and said, um, [00:07:40] I don’t just really want to do dental nursing for the rest of my life. Is there anything you can advise me? [00:07:45] And he just said to me, why don’t you don’t you apply to go to university? And I applied and I got [00:07:50] an interview and I got offered a place.

Payman Langroudi: It was supposed to be really super competitive.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. And I.

Payman Langroudi: Think. Did [00:07:55] you study.

Claire Stenhouse: Sheffield? I think because it wasn’t something that I’d always wanted to do, [00:08:00] and it therapy was very new at that point when I went to university. So [00:08:05] it wasn’t really something that I’d thought about. So I think because I wasn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Invested [00:08:10] a lot psychologically.

Claire Stenhouse: I wasn’t I was quite relaxed about the whole thing. [00:08:15] So I don’t know whether that helped me get through the interview. I don’t know. I don’t know, but yeah, I [00:08:20] went for the interview, offered the place, and.

Payman Langroudi: I’d like to understand, like what happened 17 years into nursing. Did [00:08:25] something happen that made you think now’s the time?

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah, I just got a bit. I think my kids had [00:08:30] gone to school at that point, and I just felt as if I was in a bit of a rut, and I just wanted to [00:08:35] do something else. But I’ve always worked in dentistry since I was 16, so I didn’t really want to leave [00:08:40] dentistry. So I just had a word with my boss and he said, why don’t you just try? I think it was. [00:08:45] He said, why don’t you try for hygiene? But then when I applied, it had changed [00:08:50] to a therapy course. It was therapy. So.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And it’s full time course. Yeah. Did you have to save up and [00:08:55] pay for it or pay for your life?

Claire Stenhouse: Bizarrely, it was paid by the National Health Service. [00:09:00] Oh, really? And they also paid me a bursary to go to university, which I [00:09:05] think was about £600 a month.

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t think that sort of thing existed.

Claire Stenhouse: And I think the course [00:09:10] was £18,000 a year.

Payman Langroudi: They paid all of that.

Claire Stenhouse: They paid all of it.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, goodness.

Claire Stenhouse: And I hardly [00:09:15] took any student loans out either, so I never I never lost anything.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe you lucked out. It was like a moment [00:09:20] where they decided we need therapy.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah, but then it stopped. So when. So when I finished [00:09:25] university, there was no, like, big. You’ve got to come and work for the NHS. [00:09:30] I think I went and worked privately for the first two years. I didn’t even work for the NHS. But yeah, they paid for [00:09:35] for everything, which was bizarre. And it’s only now. I mean, I’ve been a therapist for 15 years. [00:09:40] It’s only now that the NHS is saying we need we we need therapists. [00:09:45] Um, and they’ve given us the exemptions. I’ve now got a performer number so I [00:09:50] can open a course of treatment. So it’s only 15 years in that they’re [00:09:55] saying, yeah, you can work on the NHS.

Payman Langroudi: So and if someone, if someone’s a nurse listening to this.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. [00:10:00]

Payman Langroudi: And they’re considering, you know, and you know I feel like our profession definitely [00:10:05] on the DCP side, it’s just there isn’t enough sort of movement [00:10:10] and career sort of progression.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So if someone’s thinking, look, I’m nursing, I’m a good nurse, I [00:10:15] like my job, but I want to do something more.

Claire Stenhouse: Same as I did. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: What what what.

Payman Langroudi: Would you [00:10:20] say are the biggest differences? Like, you know, for instance, now, I guess you have to worry [00:10:25] about the GDC breathing down your neck. Yeah. Whereas as a nurse you don’t. Yeah.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah you [00:10:30] do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah yeah. But I just made that up. I mean yeah, the considerations [00:10:35] that someone should be thinking about what makes what makes it something to go [00:10:40] for And what surprised you about it? For instance?

Claire Stenhouse: It’s hard work. It’s very stressful. [00:10:45] I don’t know whether I can say go, go, go for it. It’s it’s rewarding. [00:10:50] But I think a lot of the dentists [00:10:55] refer a lot of children to me. Yeah. I [00:11:00] don’t think a lot of the dentists particularly like working with children. It’s [00:11:05] harder, it’s harder. So they refer it to me. So from 3 p.m. till 5 [00:11:10] p.m., you’re just kids on a daily basis. It’s just kids, really. And by 5:00, my [00:11:15] head is blown. It’s really, really hard work. So it’s very stressful. It’s [00:11:20] very stressful. But then I’m a therapist on the NHS. So a therapist working purely [00:11:25] privately.

Payman Langroudi: How long do you get for a filling on a kid?

Claire Stenhouse: 20 minutes.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah 20 minutes. [00:11:30]

Payman Langroudi: La oh you don’t give LA to.

Claire Stenhouse: Kids. No not particularly. No no depending on age and tooth but no [00:11:35] not not necessarily.

Payman Langroudi: What about if it’s an adult m.o.

Claire Stenhouse: 20 minutes.

Payman Langroudi: 40 minutes. [00:11:40] Beginning to end.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well, no wonder, no wonder they’re sending patients to you.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. [00:11:45] But then I’ve been doing it for 15 years, so. Yeah, yeah. When I first qualified, [00:11:50] when I was at university, we had an hour and a half. Yeah. On clinic to do. To do a filling. [00:11:55] And when I first went in to work in my first NHS job, I think I was given [00:12:00] 40 minutes for a filling and I panicked. I was like, there is no way that I can do [00:12:05] a buckle, buckle, cup of tea in 40 minutes. But you just.

Payman Langroudi: About the course [00:12:10] itself, did it surprise you how difficult that was? Because when I got into dental school, it just blew me away.

Claire Stenhouse: How difficult [00:12:15] it was. A lot of our lectures were with the BDA students, and they’d [00:12:20] done physics, chemistry, biology. I hadn’t I’d done biology [00:12:25] at school a long time ago.

Payman Langroudi: O-level?

Claire Stenhouse: No, it wasn’t [00:12:30] O-level. What was it before that? Uh, no, it was it was O-level. Yeah. Um, and [00:12:35] a lot of our lectures were with the BDS students and it baffled [00:12:40] me. Absolutely baffled me. I didn’t understand it and I used to.

Payman Langroudi: Find exams hard.

Claire Stenhouse: No, [00:12:45] no, not after a while. Because what I did is I used to go home and I used to go on [00:12:50] BBC bitesize. Oh, yeah. And I used to start from the scratch with with the things until [00:12:55] I understood it, because. What a swap. Yeah. No, um, but [00:13:00] that was the way that I got through it. I learned all the basics, but yeah, it was really hard. Really hard. And I [00:13:05] think it’s even harder now.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s harder in many ways. Right. It’s hard in the sort of the [00:13:10] book part of it. Yeah. The reading and all that understanding. And I remember thinking sometimes [00:13:15] I was a kid, you know, I was 18 or 19 years old. Sometimes a lecturer would say something and I’d for [00:13:20] myself decide, nah, this isn’t important. Yeah. And then two weeks later, you realise none of that was important.

Claire Stenhouse: Really [00:13:25] important. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so, because it’s a word you’ve not heard, or you just get a feeling from the person that this [00:13:30] isn’t important. Um, you realise soon that this is the absolute minimum you need to know [00:13:35] it’s nowhere near the maximum.

Claire Stenhouse: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And then on the other side of it, the first time you do [00:13:40] a filling, the first time you do an endo, the first time you do a crown, prep whatever it is, the first time it’s, [00:13:45] it’s it’s heartbreakingly difficult. Right.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. No it is.

Payman Langroudi: On a patient. [00:13:50]

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. And you’ve not got your tutor stood behind you, guiding you through it. You’re on your own.

Payman Langroudi: And did you do. You must have [00:13:55] done some phantom head stuff as well, right.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. We yeah, we did we, we had, um, I think we had six [00:14:00] months just doing hygiene on phantom heads before we were allowed to go on to fillings. Yeah. Yeah. [00:14:05] But then we did all our phantom head work with the BDS students as well. But it was very competitive. [00:14:10] Yeah. Yeah. At university? Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then. So this brings me [00:14:15] nicely on to this part of the pod that I like to talk about, sort of the darker part [00:14:20] of the pod where we like to discuss mistakes.

Claire Stenhouse: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and it comes [00:14:25] from black box thinking, and it’s about, you know, the fact that we tend to hide our mistakes in the medical world because [00:14:30] in the medical world, we kind of like to assign blame to mistakes. Um, [00:14:35] but then what that means is I don’t learn from yours. And you don’t learn from mine. Yeah, absolutely. So to [00:14:40] buck that trend, what comes to mind when I say what clinical errors have you made?

Claire Stenhouse: I [00:14:45] have given somebody an ID block on the wrong side. I’ve done that. Yeah yeah, [00:14:50] yeah. And the left right mistakes. I’ve done that.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [00:14:55] how did you. What happened?

Claire Stenhouse: What happened? I just had to apologise to the patient and ask her.

Payman Langroudi: The patient realised before you did.

Claire Stenhouse: No, [00:15:00] no, she didn’t have a clue. Even though I’d already said to her we’re doing a filling on the lower right. And then I numbed [00:15:05] up the lower left.

Payman Langroudi: Um, were they understanding?

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. She was. She was absolutely fine. Um, yeah, she [00:15:10] was fine.

Payman Langroudi: What did you did you then give the other side? No, I didn’t send [00:15:15] them home like that.

Claire Stenhouse: Um, no, I yeah, she came back about a couple of days later, and. Yeah, she was absolutely fine. Um, [00:15:20] at university, um, on one of my practical exams, they asked me to, [00:15:25] um, fill a lower left seven mod. I did a cracking job. It was a beautiful amalgam [00:15:30] filling. Only I’d done had done it in the sixth. So that is something that I don’t do anymore because [00:15:35] I failed and I had to go back two months, I think. Um, so it.

Payman Langroudi: Wasn’t a real patient.

Claire Stenhouse: It wasn’t [00:15:40] a real patient. But I think, um, that’s now like I checked three times before I fill [00:15:45] a tooth.

Payman Langroudi: What about a management thing where just like, what comes to mind when I say, who’s your most difficult [00:15:50] patient? Not necessarily from the clinical aspect of a patient who, you know, you [00:15:55] end up losing trust or, you know, you must. You know, one thing I noticed [00:16:00] is sometimes you get a patient who’s really rude to the nurse, and then when [00:16:05] the dentist comes in, they’re sweet as pie.

Claire Stenhouse: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: What’s that situation like that. You know a patient.

Claire Stenhouse: I am [00:16:10] I think I’m at that age now where.

Payman Langroudi: No one.

Claire Stenhouse: Dares. No. And if somebody’s rude to me [00:16:15] I am actually rude but not rude back but I will, I won’t take it. Um, [00:16:20] but that’s only come in like the last 5 or 6 years. But if somebody is rude to my nurse as well, I will [00:16:25] say.

Payman Langroudi: Pull them.

Claire Stenhouse: Up on it. Yeah, I will say you can’t speak to her.

Payman Langroudi: So what comes to mind when I say it. Your [00:16:30] most difficult patient.

Claire Stenhouse: I’ve got loads.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Go on. What comes to.

Claire Stenhouse: Mind? What comes to [00:16:35] mind? Um. Oh, crikey. You know, put me [00:16:40] on the spot.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you know, there’s patients who can’t go back very far. The patients who complain, complain, complain [00:16:45] about something.

Claire Stenhouse: I had a patient in on Tuesday who was [00:16:50] booked in for upper left six.

Payman Langroudi: Filling.

Claire Stenhouse: Filling. [00:16:55] And I said I’m just going to pop your chair back. And he said, I can’t lie down. And I said, I’m really sorry. [00:17:00] I can’t see what I’m doing unless you lay down. And he said, But I’ve got a bad back. And I said, [00:17:05] well, I’ll be perfectly honest with you. I also have a bad back. I said, if if I lean over, I’m [00:17:10] going to be out for a couple of days. I said, but if you want to rebook with somebody else, then that’s perfectly fine. And he said, [00:17:15] no, I’ll do it. And then he said, my wife won’t be able to lay [00:17:20] back if you need to treat her. And I said, well, if she’s ever offered an appointment with me, I suggest you don’t [00:17:25] book it and let her see somewhere else. And he was fine all the All the way through the appointment. I kept checking that he was all right, [00:17:30] asking him if he was okay. Yeah, yeah. Went out to reception and complained and said to the [00:17:35] receptionist, do you think it’s fair that I had to lay back just because she’s got a bad back?

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. [00:17:40]

Claire Stenhouse: Typical patient. Yeah we get that a lot.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:17:45] what happened. Nothing.

Claire Stenhouse: Nothing. I don’t think they’ve put a formal complaint [00:17:50] in. But you never know these days do you.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ever had a formal complaint.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah I had one not long ago. About [00:17:55] three weeks ago.

Payman Langroudi: What happened?

Claire Stenhouse: Um, so a child came in, [00:18:00] was referred to me for six extractions. Um, A’s, [00:18:05] B’s and C’s. All were mobile.

Payman Langroudi: Do you do extractions as well?

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. I’m on deciduous [00:18:10] teeth. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Claire Stenhouse: Came in with grandma. Um, I’d already [00:18:15] seen him the week before for fillings. And I’d said to grandma, we’re just going [00:18:20] to do the fillings today and try and get him used to coming to see us. Came in for extractions. [00:18:25] They were grade three mobile, so I just used jail. Didn’t give an injection. It was only [00:18:30] I think it was 7 or 8. Um, put the gel on [00:18:35] and left it for two minutes. Talked to the patient, talked to Nana, made everybody nice and comfortable. Um, [00:18:40] went to take his tooth out, which was hanging out, and [00:18:45] he screamed. But I had already got the tooth, so I just took it out. And [00:18:50] he.

Payman Langroudi: Your fingers.

Claire Stenhouse: With my fingers. Yeah. And he was leaving the room and I said to him, are we still [00:18:55] friends? Because he was quite upset by this point. And he said, yes. And he came over and gave me a hug. Um, complaint [00:19:00] letter came in from the mum the next day saying that I had restrained him. I’d [00:19:05] not given him any local anaesthetic or any anaesthetic. Um, I spoke to him [00:19:10] atrociously. Um, and what else.

Payman Langroudi: Was mum sitting in the room? [00:19:15]

Claire Stenhouse: No, mum wasn’t there. Grandma came with him. Mum wasn’t in the room. My mum wasn’t there. Grandma came, um, [00:19:20] all sorts of things in this. Um, it was just a and I’ve recently found out it [00:19:25] was just therapy staff who saw my son. It wasn’t even a dentist. Mhm. Um, it [00:19:30] went on and on. It was really quite nasty to be honest. Um, but thankfully I have a [00:19:35] nurse in surgery with me and all my notes were completely up to date. [00:19:40] So I just rang the ju who responded and not [00:19:45] heard anything since, but mum wasn’t even there. Grandma was there.

Payman Langroudi: On reflection. [00:19:50]

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Would you have done something differently?

Claire Stenhouse: I would not have let grandma come. So [00:19:55] from now on.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you don’t just want the kid?

Claire Stenhouse: No, I want kids [00:20:00] and a parent. I think that’s the way forward. So we have a policy in [00:20:05] place that parents have to come for exams and sign the consent form. But [00:20:10] if they want somebody else to bring them for treatment, they have to give their permission, which was given. But [00:20:15] from now on, going forward, I only really want the parent in there.

Payman Langroudi: But do you see what I mean [00:20:20] with that question I asked you about? What do you say to the patient about therapist or dentist? [00:20:25] In this case, she’s flagged that and said, I didn’t.

Claire Stenhouse: Know therapy stuff.

Payman Langroudi: So in a way, that’s [00:20:30] maybe part of the.

Claire Stenhouse: But she did know because she didn’t. Yeah. The dentist had already told her. Yeah, [00:20:35] yeah. And everything was in our notes. And even that was. Yeah, even that was in the notes, even, uh, [00:20:40] even the point of saying that we’ll do the fillings first and then try the extractions and see how it goes. [00:20:45] It was all it was all in the notes. Everything was in the notes.

Payman Langroudi: So are you saying that there was some sort of, I [00:20:50] don’t know, malicious intent?

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Why, though? Yeah. What? Try it on.

Claire Stenhouse: I don’t [00:20:55] know whether he’d gone home very upset and grandma had [00:21:00] felt stoked.

Payman Langroudi: The flames?

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. Stoked the flames, I don’t know, but we was all lovely to him. Lovely [00:21:05] to him? Yeah. When he was there, so I don’t know. But yeah that was a couple of weeks ago but that was the first one. [00:21:10] So I haven’t done bad. It’s.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. Listen man it’s part of it’s part of.

Claire Stenhouse: Being [00:21:15] a clinician. It’s upsetting though when it happens. It’s. Yeah. It’s not it’s not easy.

Payman Langroudi: I mean [00:21:20] I haven’t practised now for 14 years or something, but I in the times [00:21:25] that I got complaints, the most upsetting ones were where I was doing something slightly [00:21:30] out of the ordinary to help the patient.

Claire Stenhouse: Patient? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then, yeah, I, [00:21:35] I can almost say it’s gone wrong because it was out of the ordinary. Yeah. Whatever the thing was. [00:21:40] Yeah. Like, you know, I decided to add a tooth to a denture in that same appointment where I really [00:21:45] should have just booked another appointment. And the patient said, can you do it today?

Claire Stenhouse: And then helped them out.

Payman Langroudi: Help them.

Claire Stenhouse: Help them [00:21:50] out.

Payman Langroudi: And then it’s gone wrong. Yeah. And then the patient’s written a letter that’s almost saying the opposite [00:21:55] saying this guy’s tried it on, you know.

Claire Stenhouse: Tried something. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s where it gets [00:22:00] really painful.

Claire Stenhouse: You’ve tried to help somebody.

Payman Langroudi: You were trying to help. Now, if I. If I then extrapolate out [00:22:05] that to, let’s say, a serious situation which that becomes a GDC hearing. Yeah. [00:22:10] Let’s say I’ve got my kids in private school. I’ve got debts. Now, suddenly I’m [00:22:15] catastrophizing about what’s going to happen if I lose my lose my license. And then you can [00:22:20] start to understand why. You know, dentists take their own lives sometimes.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. No. Absolutely. [00:22:25] And it’s it’s upsetting because it. She tried to [00:22:30] say that I was quite horrible to her. And I’ve, I’ve been treating kids for 15 years and most of the kids come in, [00:22:35] they’re like, hi Claire. Are you alright? And it was upsetting to think that somebody thought that I’d actually been horrible [00:22:40] to a child. That was the worst thing. Um, and as.

Payman Langroudi: Much similar to what I’m saying.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. And [00:22:45] as much as you try to, like, shrug it off and go, oh, yeah, it’s fine, I’ll let the deed. It was like just waiting [00:22:50] for the deed you to respond.

Payman Langroudi: Stress.

Claire Stenhouse: It’s it’s it’s quite stressful and you don’t realise sometimes [00:22:55] how much it’s stressing you out. Um, but yeah, it’s quite, it’s just you [00:23:00] like to think that you’re very, like, brave.

Payman Langroudi: And what’s mad is, what’s mad is I just [00:23:05] said to you, what should a young nurse who’s thinking about going to therapy think about. And you [00:23:10] said it’s a stressful job and you didn’t mean the day to day is stressful. [00:23:15] You meant a few of these incidents.

Claire Stenhouse: Can make it.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe one every three years. [00:23:20]

Claire Stenhouse: Can make it.

Payman Langroudi: Real enough to make it.

Claire Stenhouse: A very stressful yourself as well. And um, [00:23:25] yeah, it does. It makes you question yourself and whether you’re doing the right thing and you have to like, really think back to the [00:23:30] appointment and was there about there wasn’t. So yeah. No it’s fine.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about working at a corporate. [00:23:35] Uh, your practice was bought by my dentist.

Claire Stenhouse: It was?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So you were already a hygiene [00:23:40] therapist in this practice when it when it happened. I mean, I’ve [00:23:45] been to a lot of my dentist practices, right? And they’re all now very branded up and all. Yeah. Was there a moment [00:23:50] where you thought this, this building that I know so well? I’ve [00:23:55] got so many memories and suddenly they’ve ripped it apart and, you know, rebranded everything, I [00:24:00] guess some new people probably. Yeah. Was there a moment of like. Like almost. I mean, it’s a silly word, [00:24:05] but like, grieving for the past.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. And my patience and my patience as well. Yeah. Yeah. [00:24:10] It was, it was, it was quite upsetting. Was it when they came in. Yeah. And I’ll be honest with you, my dentist [00:24:15] has changed so much just lately. Yeah. When they came into my practice 15 [00:24:20] years ago, it was a completely different bunch of people and they weren’t as [00:24:25] nice as what the people are now.

Payman Langroudi: They’ve got a massive focus now on the clinicians they have. [00:24:30] They want the clinicians.

Claire Stenhouse: Happy and the staff as well. Yeah, it is a massive change. But at the.

Payman Langroudi: Time [00:24:35] the attitude was a bit different.

Claire Stenhouse: Very different. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Explain to me like some something that was upsetting.

Claire Stenhouse: So [00:24:40] I’d been a therapist using my therapy with my [00:24:45] employer at the time, and he sold it to my dentist, and all they wanted me to do was hygiene. Yeah, [00:24:50] but they hadn’t got a dentist. So if they’d had just managed to get a dentist [00:24:55] one day a week to prescribe to me, I’d have been able to do the treatment. But they didn’t. But the patients [00:25:00] were left with nobody. They did get somebody just one day a week, [00:25:05] but the patients were just left with no appointments. It was like if the dentist just comes in and does the [00:25:10] check-up, I can do the therapy work.

Payman Langroudi: In a corporate environment, though [00:25:15] a little problem like that can take six weeks to sort because.

Claire Stenhouse: It has to.

Payman Langroudi: Go [00:25:20] up the chain of.

Claire Stenhouse: Command. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then down the chain, I’m thinking my wife works. My wife owns [00:25:25] some of enlighten.

Claire Stenhouse: Right. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. She she’s a dentist. Yeah. She works at a corporate. And we [00:25:30] said, look, you know, she owns the company, right? What about we do a little enlightened promotion? Yeah, yeah. [00:25:35] It took a year. One year? Yeah. For them to. To approve. Firstly the idea. Secondly, [00:25:40] the creative. Thirdly, the price, the offer. It took a year.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And if [00:25:45] this was a normal practice, you could have just told the boss. Look, here’s what it is. By day after tomorrow, something [00:25:50] could have happened.

Claire Stenhouse: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So is it. Is it different now?

Claire Stenhouse: It’s a lot different now. It’s a lot quicker now. [00:25:55] Yeah. It’s a lot quicker now.

Payman Langroudi: So what happens? Let’s say you’ve got a problem now.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How long do you think it will take to [00:26:00] fix a problem like that?

Claire Stenhouse: Um, my area manager is brilliant. So if I email my [00:26:05] area manager, she will get back to me and say, leave it with me. Really? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Call her out. Call her out.

Claire Stenhouse: Laura. [00:26:10]

Payman Langroudi: Laura. Well done, well done Laura.

Claire Stenhouse: My dentist and Michelle [00:26:15] Holmes as well. The. Yeah. Michelle. Yeah. Michelle’s lovely as well. So yeah it’s a it’s a lot it’s a lot better [00:26:20] now but we’re 15 years in so and then they, they just they seem to care. [00:26:25]

Payman Langroudi: So now from your sort of career prospects, [00:26:30] I’m trying to persuade you to do anterior aesthetic work. Let’s say [00:26:35] you come back to mini smile makeover and you decide. I mean, you’ve been once, but [00:26:40] you decided it’s not for you yet. This time you decide I’m going to try and do it.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah, I have decided [00:26:45] I am going to do it.

Payman Langroudi: Really, really.

Claire Stenhouse: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: So. So what steps would you now have to take [00:26:50] to be referred private aesthetic cases?

Claire Stenhouse: I don’t need to I don’t need to be prescribed. [00:26:55]

Payman Langroudi: I don’t need.

Claire Stenhouse: Prescribed.

Payman Langroudi: You’ll just sell it to the patient.

Claire Stenhouse: Sell it to the patients myself. Yeah. It doesn’t need prescribing. [00:27:00]

Payman Langroudi: When did that change?

Claire Stenhouse: Um, so it’s all been changing over the last couple of years. So before I [00:27:05] obviously would need a prescription for local anaesthetic. Yeah, I’ve just done the exemptions [00:27:10] course, so I don’t actually need a prescription for. Um, and I can do an examination [00:27:15] as well. Um, we always have been able to do, but never been allowed to. Um, [00:27:20] so whatever’s in our scope of practice now, we can now do. So if I see a patient and [00:27:25] they want composite bonding, I can go ahead and do it.

Payman Langroudi: And you scan [00:27:30] as well.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. Alicia does it for me, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But you can. [00:27:35]

Claire Stenhouse: See it’s much better at it than I am. But you can scan. I can scan, yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is the scanner kind of [00:27:40] available or is it.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah, it’s. Yeah, it’s always available. It’s always there. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We’re trying to convince [00:27:45] them to. So we’ve got a little spare room. It’s very tiny, but you could just get a chair [00:27:50] and a scanner in there. So we’re trying to convince them to make that into a little scanning room. So it’s always [00:27:55] available. If there’s no surgery free, then we can pop in there and leave it in there as well, because it’s [00:28:00] a bit of a clack carrying it around everywhere.

Payman Langroudi: I’m going to put you on the spot now.

Claire Stenhouse: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: What are [00:28:05] the best and worst things about working in this environment. Like in a corporate [00:28:10] environment.

Claire Stenhouse: In a corporate. Um. The [00:28:15] best thing, I suppose, is the support that you get. I’m [00:28:20] going to be honest with you. It all depends on your practice and [00:28:25] the manager.

Payman Langroudi: The particular.

Claire Stenhouse: And the team. Yeah. Um, if you’ve got a good manager and a good team, [00:28:30] then everything runs really smoothly. Um, I’m very lucky in [00:28:35] the fact that I do whitening. One of the dentists [00:28:40] does the composite bonding, one does clearcorrect and one does implants. And [00:28:45] we all.

Payman Langroudi: Tend much crossover.

Claire Stenhouse: No, we don’t cross over. We all refer to each other. [00:28:50] And that’s the lovely part of working. Um, but I don’t know [00:28:55] whether that happens in other practices. That’s just our practice.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you’ve done you said you’ve done 120 [00:29:00] enlightened cases. Yeah. So many of those cases would be implant patients [00:29:05] or So. Patience.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Finish clear. Correct. And upgraded.

Claire Stenhouse: Composite bonding. But [00:29:10] want to, um, be a be one before they start.

Payman Langroudi: So all the dentists are cool with you doing it.

Claire Stenhouse: Instead.

Payman Langroudi: Of [00:29:15] them.

Claire Stenhouse: Doing.

Payman Langroudi: It?

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting.

Payman Langroudi: I know it’s such a lucky position to be in.

Claire Stenhouse: I know, I [00:29:20] know.

Payman Langroudi: And then you get paid by percentage.

Claire Stenhouse: I do get paid by.

Payman Langroudi: Is [00:29:25] that the same across all, um, my dentists.

Claire Stenhouse: I don’t know, I think different hygiene therapists [00:29:30] work differently, I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Do you only work in that practice? Would you work in a.

Claire Stenhouse: No, I work for an independent practice [00:29:35] as well. Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Okay, so tell me about this here. You know, sometimes I’m just gonna call you a hygienist [00:29:40] for now. Yeah, okay. Sometimes the hygienist doesn’t feel like part of the team, okay? Because they’re not [00:29:45] there the whole time. And I remember we used to have a hygienist in one of my practices. She was only there one [00:29:50] day a week. Yeah. And she used to tell me, um, we’d talk and she’d tell me, you know, [00:29:55] in dental practice, you’ve got hierarchy situations sometimes. Yeah. My dentist. Quite different, actually, when [00:30:00] I’ve been there. Um, it feels like a flatter hierarchy because, you know, [00:30:05] it’s my dentist. That’s the boss. It’s not. It’s not the dentist themselves. Right. Yeah. Um, but [00:30:10] what the scientists tell me is, you say, you know, I don’t even want to go to the Christmas [00:30:15] party, but it would be nice to get an invite.

Claire Stenhouse: Oh, she never got invited.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, because she was. Because she was one day [00:30:20] a week.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, they didn’t consider her as one of the team.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. Okay. So.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but [00:30:25] I’m not talking about the Christmas party. I’m talking about overall. Overall. You’re there. I don’t know, one day a week or two days a week. The other [00:30:30] one. The other job. Yeah. You’re not really properly part of the the full time staff. [00:30:35]

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or maybe again, you’re very lucky and you feel like you are.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah, I do.

Payman Langroudi: But you really [00:30:40] land on your feet. I have.

Claire Stenhouse: I know because, yeah, you see things on Facebook, don’t you, [00:30:45] about like what you’ve just explained. Not feeling part of the team and everything. And yeah, I [00:30:50] get it. And I have worked in practices before that I have felt like that. But no, I do actually [00:30:55] feel part of the team.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so the best. So the best thing is.

Claire Stenhouse: Is they’re going to pay me for [00:31:00] this.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So the best thing is you’ve got the support. For instance, [00:31:05] my wife works at Bupa. We moved house and they just found her another job on.

Claire Stenhouse: The other side.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So there’s that. Right. [00:31:10] So if you ever want to move from Skegness, you could always. What’s the downside.

Claire Stenhouse: Of working for a corporate? [00:31:15]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Claire Stenhouse: I suppose like [00:31:20] you just said, things do take longer.

Payman Langroudi: So even now. [00:31:25]

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. So when I went when I did the enlightened course online, [00:31:30] I went to my boss at my other practice, which is independent, and [00:31:35] explained to him everything about him. And he ordered the kits straight away. Yeah. [00:31:40] And I know that.

Payman Langroudi: At my dentist there was a process.

Claire Stenhouse: It was it was a process. So yeah. [00:31:45] And my independence. So there’s lots of there’s [00:31:50] lots of rules and regulations at my dentist that aren’t in place. And [00:31:55] at the other one.

Payman Langroudi: And you understand why.

Claire Stenhouse: I understand.

Payman Langroudi: The stress.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. [00:32:00] But yeah I suppose that’s one of the, the downsides. But you know, [00:32:05] everybody who’s worked at my practice has been there for a long time.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s are they as flexible [00:32:10] when it comes to holidays.

Claire Stenhouse: I’m self-employed. So they are. Yeah. So they are. Yeah I [00:32:15] think we have to give six weeks notice if we want holidays but yeah. No they are. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But let’s say it’s five [00:32:20] weeks notice. Is that a definite no. Or they’ll consider.

Claire Stenhouse: It. They’ll consider it. Yeah. That’s right. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. No. [00:32:25] Yeah. No they’re not strict like that. That’s right. Yeah. No it’s good. And like um I’ve had quite [00:32:30] a few health issues over the last couple of years. So they, they’ve been really good.

Payman Langroudi: Understanding.

Claire Stenhouse: About hospital [00:32:35] appointments and things like that. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: I think if you know, I’ve got friends, my wife actually had [00:32:40] had a health issue too. If you’re ill. Yeah. A corporate might be the best place to be.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. No, they’ve always been.

Payman Langroudi: Okay [00:32:45] because they really do dot the I’s and cross the T’s when it comes.

Claire Stenhouse: To. Absolutely. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That sort of.

Claire Stenhouse: Thing. I’ve had [00:32:50] to go home some. Not not often, but a couple of afternoons I’ve had to leave and it’s, it’s been absolutely [00:32:55] fine. Apart from the patients.

Payman Langroudi: They’ve.

Claire Stenhouse: It.

Payman Langroudi: Not.

Claire Stenhouse: Being fine?

Payman Langroudi: Of course. [00:33:00] So where do you think you’ll be in five years time? Do you feel like you’ve fully retired? [00:33:05]

Claire Stenhouse: Oh, really? Hopefully. Are you thinking of it? Yeah. We’ve, um. We’re we we’ve [00:33:10] got a narrowboat in Nottingham that we go to every weekend, and we’ve just bought, um, [00:33:15] an old narrowboat that we’re doing up. Um, and our intention is to [00:33:20] five more years go live on the narrowboat. So. Yeah, hopefully five years. Yeah. Yeah, [00:33:25] it might take a bit longer than that, but yeah, that’s that’s the plan. So hopefully in five years I won’t.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re saving [00:33:30] up right now or.

Claire Stenhouse: Um. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s expensive. It’s expensive being [00:33:35] retired.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah I know, yeah, I think so. I don’t think I’ll enjoy [00:33:40] full time retirement, so I’m probably going to end up working two days a [00:33:45] week just to keep you going.

Payman Langroudi: I used to have a boss who was really into, [00:33:50] uh, sailing. Yeah. And he he he used to go away. Actually, I really attribute [00:33:55] a lot of what I learned from this guy by by mistake, actually, because he used to go away for [00:34:00] four months at a time and he’d just have a little chat with me and say, look, just, just make sure everything’s okay and do [00:34:05] whatever you want and just go. And I learned a lot from just that. But but he put a Dental chair [00:34:10] on his.

Claire Stenhouse: Did he really?

Payman Langroudi: Wow. And and he sails around [00:34:15] Croatia.

Claire Stenhouse: Right. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, the sailing community, they tend to sort of go [00:34:20] together. Yeah. From port to port. And he’s kind of just known as the guy. If you’ve got toothache, then. [00:34:25]

Claire Stenhouse: You pop on his.

Payman Langroudi: Boat. Maybe the narrowboat.

Claire Stenhouse: See, that is another, though. Another thing I’d like [00:34:30] to do if.

Payman Langroudi: Direct access from the narrative.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. Yeah. Just stick it on the side of a towpath. [00:34:35] Another thing I’d like to do there is a big ship, isn’t there, that goes around all the. Oh, why [00:34:40] does it. I used to work with a dentist who used to go, and it was like this big first aid [00:34:45] ship. And they used to do dentistry on there. Yeah. Charity work. I’d love to do that.

Payman Langroudi: Where? Like in Africa [00:34:50] or something?

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah, I’m sure it was. Yeah, somewhere around there. Or even go on one of these. Of these? [00:34:55] Is it dentate? Yeah, I’d love to do something like that. I’ve said that for years, but I’ll get [00:35:00] around to it at some point. But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whenever this question comes up, I always think about, have you heard of effective [00:35:05] altruism? No. So it’s got a bit of a bad name now, but [00:35:10] I’ll explain to you why. So, you know, let’s let’s say we want to do some charity work. Yeah, yeah, [00:35:15] there’s there’s an island in Greece where all the refugees first come to Lesbos. [00:35:20] It’s just full of refugees, right? You can go there and you can help out.

Claire Stenhouse: Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:35:25] Um, Rona, my co-host. She does it every year on the other podcast. But [00:35:30] the question is this, like, why?

Claire Stenhouse: I just think it’d be rewarding.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:35:35] Yeah, it is. It definitely is. Yeah.

Claire Stenhouse: And I’ve done something good.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. But but, [00:35:40] you know, this is my point that, you know, sometimes someone like Rona, she’s a bit super high end cosmetic dentist. [00:35:45] Yeah. And she says sometimes you’ve got some very sort of rich, famous [00:35:50] person giving her hell about some quarter of an inch on a on a tooth [00:35:55] because she’s a cosmetic dentist and she says when she goes to the refugee camp, it’s like suddenly [00:36:00] keeping things real where you know, people, you know, need her help and so on. Yeah, and I get all of that. [00:36:05] But if the end goal is to alleviate suffering, [00:36:10] yeah, you do better working as a [00:36:15] therapist, banging out composite veneers and paying [00:36:20] money into charity, paying money to people on the ground.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah, I’m going to do [00:36:25] it.

Payman Langroudi: If that’s the end goal. If the end goal is making alleviating pain, let’s [00:36:30] say. Yeah. Now, if the end goal is you yourself being the one to alleviate the pain.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. No, I think [00:36:35] that’s what yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I get it. I completely get it because, you know, there’s something in it for you. But but you’ve got to also [00:36:40] like be wary of, you know, there’s a power to that.

Claire Stenhouse: How is.

Payman Langroudi: That. Yeah. Like [00:36:45] let’s imagine I’m driving a truck that’s got bread on the back.

Claire Stenhouse: Of.

Payman Langroudi: It. Yeah, yeah. And there’s the hungry here. Yeah, yeah. [00:36:50] Now of course I want to feed the hungry. Yeah, but there is a there is an element of power there that says if I don’t feed [00:36:55] them, they’ll die.

Claire Stenhouse: Right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And I have the power. Okay. And so all I’m saying, [00:37:00] I don’t want to be an idiot about it, because I completely get why people want to do it myself. I want to [00:37:05] go to Lesbos myself. Now that I’m not a dentist, I want to go and do some dentistry. Yeah. [00:37:10] I completely get it. But I am talking about just the other side of it. Yeah. Is that to fully understand [00:37:15] what your motivation is around that? Yeah. And make sure that motivation isn’t [00:37:20] the power side of it. Yeah. Yeah. It is.

Claire Stenhouse: A [00:37:25] little.

Payman Langroudi: Bit. I love your honesty.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. No. Maybe there is maybe just a little bit. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: We tend to end this podcast [00:37:30] generally with a fantasy dinner party.

Claire Stenhouse: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests, dead [00:37:35] or alive. What comes to mind? I should have warned you about the question, but I like just hitting you. [00:37:40]

Claire Stenhouse: Okay. Um, not dentistry related. Anybody? Pink.

Payman Langroudi: Pink. [00:37:45] The artist.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. Pink. The artist. Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: She’s good.

Claire Stenhouse: She is very good. I saw [00:37:50] her at Wembley. Oh, did you go? Yeah, it was brilliant. Um. Oh. Oh, my. [00:37:55] Grandma.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, nice.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Were you.

Claire Stenhouse: Close? Yeah. Very, um. Pink. [00:38:00] My grandma and the Queen.

Payman Langroudi: The queen?

Claire Stenhouse: The queen.

Payman Langroudi: She’s made. She’s made appearances [00:38:05] in this party before. It’s an interesting one with pink and your grandma, though.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah, and [00:38:10] the queen.

Payman Langroudi: I’m sure your grandma would be like.

Claire Stenhouse: I know she’d like pink better than the Queen, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah, [00:38:15] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure to have you.

Claire Stenhouse: Thank you very.

Payman Langroudi: Much. It’s a massive pleasure to have to see you [00:38:20] back in London again. And you’re coming out brilliant. I look forward to seeing you on Mini Smile Makeover.

Claire Stenhouse: In a couple.

Payman Langroudi: Of weeks. [00:38:25] In a couple of weeks. Thank you so much for doing this.

Claire Stenhouse: Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Perrin Shah [00:38:30] onto the My Dentist episode of Dental Leaders. Perrin is [00:38:35] a dentist who had her own clinic in India and then [00:38:40] moved to the UK and started working at my dentist, so it’s a pleasure to have you. [00:38:45]

Perrin Shah: Thank you Payman so much. It’s an honour to be invited on your podcast. [00:38:50] Um, I have been listening to your podcast on my drive way back [00:38:55] home. Long drives and I make sure my partner listens to it as well. [00:39:00] It’s. It’s very lovely to be here with you this evening. Thank you for inviting me. [00:39:05]

Payman Langroudi: It’s lovely to see you. So we saw each other in Bristol?

Perrin Shah: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: At one of those training [00:39:10] events.

Perrin Shah: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. Yeah, yeah. And, um. So, look, I’m always [00:39:15] interested in stories of people getting up from one country and going to another, especially to do dentistry. [00:39:20] Bearing in mind how difficult it is to to move to the UK from [00:39:25] with an Indian, uh, degree. Yeah. But I’m also very aware of how hard it [00:39:30] is to become a dentist in India. Very competitive nature of the thing. Um, [00:39:35] tell me about why dentistry. Like, how did it happen?

Perrin Shah: So basically, uh, [00:39:40] in my, I would say in my family, even in the extended family or [00:39:45] nobody is a doctor or a dentist. So my mom really [00:39:50] wanted someone to be in the medical background.

Payman Langroudi: And they do.

Perrin Shah: Yes they do. Yeah. [00:39:55] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: For no reason. Yeah. For no reason.

Perrin Shah: They just feel that they should have some. But also [00:40:00] I never I my father has always been into business and I [00:40:05] never wanted to work for someone. I wanted to have my own business. So. Uh, [00:40:10] because you have the flexibility to work, to take holidays when you want, and you’re not [00:40:15] in no pressure of working for someone.

Payman Langroudi: Are your parents still in India? Yeah. What does your father do? [00:40:20]

Perrin Shah: So my father is retired now, but he used to make raw materials [00:40:25] like kerosene, acetone, acetic acid. Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Chemical engineering.

Perrin Shah: Yeah, yeah, [00:40:30] yeah. So he. We have our own factory, but he’s given it to someone now because [00:40:35] of cause of his age. But I have been there, and he is super hardworking. So [00:40:40] I was like, no, I want to get there at some point. But of course [00:40:45] he wanted he never wanted me to join the factory because it involved [00:40:50] long hours of travelling. And he said, you settle on something which [00:40:55] you it’s very local to you. And then because I always wanted [00:41:00] like to fulfil my mom’s dream as well. So I was like, okay, let’s get into medical background. [00:41:05] But my other option other than that was journalism. Oh really? I thought if I couldn’t [00:41:10] get into dentistry, my second option was to get into journalism [00:41:15] because I wanted to do Bachelors of Mass Media. So that was my plan.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. [00:41:20]

Perrin Shah: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Are there times where you think, what if, like, you wish [00:41:25] you did get into journalism?

Perrin Shah: Uh, yeah. I was like, okay. I was like, it’s [00:41:30] fun, it’s travelling. It’s just after the news every now and then. Yeah. And it’s also [00:41:35] about interviewing people like you are right now. So but once I got into dentistry, [00:41:40] I thought, yeah, this is for me because I started loving it so much. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:41:45] was the course like? Did you was is the course difficult like when you got there? Did you did.

Perrin Shah: It? Um, yeah. [00:41:50] Getting into dentistry was difficult. Yeah. But once you are in, initially [00:41:55] it was tough because of course everything is new. We had. And [00:42:00] so I remember still, um, we had anatomy, uh, hands on [00:42:05] practical. And we had, we saw the dead body for the very first time. [00:42:10] A lot of formalin. And I had two of my colleagues who just passed out.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: With [00:42:15] the smell or they can’t see. So it was a bit of, you know.

Payman Langroudi: For instance, how many people [00:42:20] in your year.

Perrin Shah: 100.

Payman Langroudi: 100?

Perrin Shah: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I mean, we [00:42:25] kind of I kind of know what, what the expectation is on numbers of, of [00:42:30] treatments you have to do here. But what was it there like? I mean, how many endos had you done by the time you became [00:42:35] a dentist?

Perrin Shah: Uh, until final year, which is the fourth year there. We [00:42:40] were just allowed to do maybe anteriores until canines [00:42:45] because they had reserved the molars for postgraduate studies. Okay, but when we were internship, we [00:42:50] can’t do molars if we wanted to. So I did at least 15 molars, [00:42:55] I would say, during my entire time in endodontics there.

Payman Langroudi: But internship means what? The year after [00:43:00] your.

Perrin Shah: Internship is, the year after you qualify.

Payman Langroudi: You have sort of hear.

Perrin Shah: No before you [00:43:05] get your certificate.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Perrin Shah: So after the fourth year, you have one year where.

Payman Langroudi: You practice. [00:43:10]

Perrin Shah: In practice, but in hospital where you were once training.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I see.

Perrin Shah: So you’re you’re [00:43:15] unofficially a dentist, but you can call yourself as a dentist because there’s no exams. [00:43:20] Then you have done everything.

Payman Langroudi: So how long after you qualify? Did you decide you want to open your own clinic? [00:43:25]

Perrin Shah: So, no. After I finished my bachelor’s, I [00:43:30] came out. I saw that a lot of loads of dentists in and around and how [00:43:35] much I, I was good at clinical dentistry. I wasn’t confident at all. So I was like, [00:43:40] no, you have to step up one like you have to take a step further. Yeah. That’s when I got [00:43:45] into Masters for Pete’s. Pete’s. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Why did you pick Pete’s? You like children?

Perrin Shah: No. [00:43:50]

Payman Langroudi: No.

[TRANSITION]: The thing is, because. [00:43:55]

Perrin Shah: It involves everything. I did not wanted to leave general dentistry. So [00:44:00] Pete’s included everything. Whatever comes from endo, ortho fillings, [00:44:05] crowns, dentures.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so ortho was part of it?

Perrin Shah: Yeah. So we had to do space maintenance. [00:44:10] We had to give appliances removable and partial for habit breaking and stuff. We [00:44:15] had to give crowns for both adult and deciduous teeth. [00:44:20] And we.

Payman Langroudi: So was it a full time course?

Perrin Shah: Yeah, yeah. A three year course. Full time. [00:44:25]

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness.

Perrin Shah: Right. And full time in the hospital. Yeah. Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So so then [00:44:30] when you when did you open your practice? Soon after.

[TRANSITION]: That.

Perrin Shah: Soon after that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So do you think was it a [00:44:35] pedes practice?

Perrin Shah: Initially, I started as a pedes practice. Yeah, but then, um, [00:44:40] the parents started asking me, can you treat us as well? Um, so initially I [00:44:45] was a bit sceptical. Should I or should I not? But then I said, let’s go on, let’s try, because I know it, I [00:44:50] know fillings, I know root canals for patients with difficult like very flattened ridges. [00:44:55] I used to call my friends who were also specialists, and then they used to call me for [00:45:00] consultations for pedes. So this is how. And then I went into a fully full practice.

Payman Langroudi: Did you [00:45:05] did you buy an existing practice or did you set up one from squat?

Perrin Shah: I set up on my own because [00:45:10] in that area my parents lived for 30 years.

Payman Langroudi: Mumbai.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. [00:45:15] So everybody.

Payman Langroudi: Loads of.

[TRANSITION]: People.

Perrin Shah: They everybody knew them. Yeah. And my grandparents as [00:45:20] well. So it was very easy for me to open an area where they know me and [00:45:25] my family. So I used to get a lot of friends, family, extended family.

Payman Langroudi: Did you get the money?

Perrin Shah: So [00:45:30] initially my father helped me. Yeah, to set up the practice Purpose. And [00:45:35] then once I started working, I never asked him again because.

Payman Langroudi: It was.

[TRANSITION]: A success.

Perrin Shah: Yeah, [00:45:40] a good success. I started making profit in third month, I would [00:45:45] say.

[TRANSITION]: Wow.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. And it was a very well established practice.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Intensely. We don’t realise [00:45:50] how lucky we are.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Insomuch as something like that can even happen. Yeah. Because I [00:45:55] was dentist and we started enlightened. And for the first five years we made loss.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:46:00]

Payman Langroudi: And big losses, you know. Huge losses. And there’s nothing as painful as working your [00:46:05] butt off and losing money.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s really hard. And in dentistry. And I was a dentist, [00:46:10] so I just thought it’d be like dentistry, you know, make some people happy and you’ll get some money, you know? But not the same [00:46:15] at all.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So. So you had this perfect situation, and then you go and meet your husband.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:46:20] Yeah.

Perrin Shah: So things happened, and we met [00:46:25] online and then online. Yeah. We met online. And then, of course, [00:46:30] he had come to India.

Payman Langroudi: He lives like a like a dating app.

Perrin Shah: No, it wasn’t a dating app. [00:46:35] It was, um, I would say, uh, he was my friend’s friend. [00:46:40]

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Perrin Shah: And then, um, we met. I was like, he just said hi, [00:46:45] and then I said. And then we started conversation. But it was also kind of arranged marriage, I would say. [00:46:50]

Payman Langroudi: So you were kind of looking for a husband at that point?

Perrin Shah: My parents were.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:46:55]

Perrin Shah: And and I knew that this is the time now. So of [00:47:00] course, your parents would want you to get settled down and stuff. Yeah, but I was pushing until my career [00:47:05] is set up. Yeah. So once everything was done, I had no choice. So [00:47:10] then I was like, okay, fine, let’s do this. Let’s get into this world. And then I met [00:47:15] him. My family met him. He came to Mumbai a couple of times. He lives in Mumbai. His [00:47:20] parents lives in Mumbai as well. So we met there. And then I said, [00:47:25] um, his name is Bhaumik. So I said, Bhowmick, I can’t leave my practice, but [00:47:30] I want you as well in my life. So he said, come to UK, see if you like [00:47:35] it. If not, we’ll come back to Mumbai or I’ll help you set a practice in UK. So [00:47:40] this was the thing which said no, let’s give a chance. So that’s why I moved to the UK. [00:47:45]

Payman Langroudi: But why did he want to move to the UK?

[TRANSITION]: Me?

Payman Langroudi: No. Why did.

[TRANSITION]: He want.

Perrin Shah: He was [00:47:50] already in the UK.

[TRANSITION]: I was already in the UK. He was.

Perrin Shah: He came here to study.

[TRANSITION]: When he was 18. I [00:47:55] see.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. And he was already established here. So he said and I think you’ll like it.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:48:00] so then you went from owning your own practice in India, in Mumbai [00:48:05] of all places, which is like a fun town, right? You know, like someone [00:48:10] doing well in Mumbai can have a great life.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: To landing in what? London. [00:48:15] Was it London? No, Bristol.

[TRANSITION]: You’re in Bristol?

Perrin Shah: In Manchester.

Payman Langroudi: Then he was in Manchester. Cold [00:48:20] and raining.

[TRANSITION]: All.

Perrin Shah: The.

[TRANSITION]: Time.

Payman Langroudi: That must have been a culture shock in the first place, right?

[TRANSITION]: No. [00:48:25] The thing is.

Payman Langroudi: Were you cool with.

[TRANSITION]: That?

Perrin Shah: No, I came in Feb 2020 just [00:48:30] before Covid.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, so by the time yeah.

Perrin Shah: I came in Feb and I [00:48:35] think the first lockdown was in on 23rd or 25th of March.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: And I was a bit [00:48:40] shocked because of Covid, a pandemic. And then I was like, okay, in my. [00:48:45]

[TRANSITION]: Mind, I.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t have a job.

[TRANSITION]: Yet. No.

Perrin Shah: From working full.

[TRANSITION]: Time. Yeah.

Perrin Shah: To [00:48:50] sitting at home.

[TRANSITION]: And like a lot of people.

Payman Langroudi: And it was a lovely summer.

[TRANSITION]: Lovely summer. [00:48:55]

Perrin Shah: And we had this in our mind that, okay, I will give [00:49:00] my exams. Everything was done and then I’ll pass. I’ll give my part one in [00:49:05] August, part two and.

[TRANSITION]: Next.

Perrin Shah: Year March Owari and that’s it. But [00:49:10] then when you come here, you come to know everything is short. Even the dental practices are short.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:49:15]

Perrin Shah: So of.

[TRANSITION]: A shock.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. A big shock to me.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, what happened [00:49:20] to your practice back in India?

Perrin Shah: So I had to give it to someone. I had to sold it [00:49:25] away because I had a friend who wanted to take it, but I just was [00:49:30] wondering if. What if something happens? They’ll contact my parents.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: And then my parents [00:49:35] would already be worried how to fix that problem, so I just sold it.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:49:40] many years did you have it beginning to end?

Perrin Shah: Uh, one and a half year.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a bit tough, man. If you’re making [00:49:45] a success of it.

Perrin Shah: The thing.

[TRANSITION]: Is.

Perrin Shah: I saw another practice opening next. [00:49:50] Just two shops from mine.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: And there was a new practice came up.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: Initially [00:49:55] I thought, okay, this is going to be a trouble for me.

[TRANSITION]: But no.

Perrin Shah: She was making her [00:50:00] money, I was fine, I had my set patients. They knew how I work.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Perrin Shah: And I used to see a lot [00:50:05] of emergencies for children on Sundays as well. Yeah. Because they knew.

[TRANSITION]: She’s. [00:50:10]

Payman Langroudi: Your source of patience. Wasn’t the man walking down the street? Your source [00:50:15] of patients was your grandparents reputation. You know. You know what I mean? Like, it’s a it’s a, you [00:50:20] know, we actually we make a mistake to think we’re in competition with each other anyway. Yeah. [00:50:25] We’re in we’re in competition with other spending.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Holidays. Whatever. Cars. Those are the things we’re in competition with. [00:50:30] But I can imagine that if I’m thinking back to when we started, if I was in profit a [00:50:35] year and a half in, nothing would have stopped me. I would have kept going. So it must have been a big step for you. [00:50:40]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: I had tears.

[TRANSITION]: In my eyes when I.

Perrin Shah: Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: And so [00:50:45] where did my dentist come into this equation? Was it when they reopened after Covid?

[TRANSITION]: No. [00:50:50]

Perrin Shah: The thing.

[TRANSITION]: Is.

Perrin Shah: So once Covid hit, um, I was in Manchester, [00:50:55] and then my husband got a job in Boeing, which is in Bristol, the aerospace hub. [00:51:00]

Payman Langroudi: Is he an aerospace engineer?

Perrin Shah: He’s aerospace.

[TRANSITION]: Engineer.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? My son wants to study there.

Perrin Shah: So it [00:51:05] was a dream job for him?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: And I was doing nothing at that time. So in [00:51:10] that time, I started giving, I started I was starting Ferrari. I was all prepared, and then they were shot. [00:51:15] So I gave a part one.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Perrin Shah: So I was like, let’s do something. [00:51:20] And then we moved to Bristol. And then I started working as a dental nurse in a private practice. [00:51:25]

[TRANSITION]: What a nightmare.

Perrin Shah: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But practice owner to dental nurse. Imagine. [00:51:30] I can imagine how you were feeling.

Perrin Shah: But I wanted to learn about [00:51:35] the culture of dentistry.

[TRANSITION]: In the UK.

Payman Langroudi: I know why. Which. Which practice was.

[TRANSITION]: That?

Perrin Shah: It was smile. Orchard. [00:51:40]

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. French dental.

[TRANSITION]: Practice. Yeah, yeah.

Perrin Shah: Lovely practice. I learned a lot. Uh, [00:51:45] it was a mixed, uh, NHS, a small contract with predominantly private. Did [00:51:50] that for a year.

Payman Langroudi: What did you find was the main difference between practices in the UK [00:51:55] and practising in India?

Perrin Shah: People don’t bargain here.

[TRANSITION]: People don’t.

Perrin Shah: Bargain. [00:52:00] Yeah. In India, they bargain for even a small filling.

[TRANSITION]: You.

Perrin Shah: You have to negotiate a lot. [00:52:05]

[TRANSITION]: Really?

Perrin Shah: And that’s tough.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: Because they are. Because there are so many dentists [00:52:10] in India.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: Yeah, yeah. They know that if they can’t afford you, there’s someone else who will do it for cheaper. So. [00:52:15]

Payman Langroudi: And what about, like, numbers of patients per day?

[TRANSITION]: It’s pretty much the same. [00:52:20] Yeah. The private practice. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Not the NHS.

[TRANSITION]: No.

Perrin Shah: So we [00:52:25] don’t. We have NHS. We have government funded practices there. It’s cheaper. [00:52:30]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: But patients know that they are going there and they won’t be paying much.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Perrin Shah: But [00:52:35] we most of us were doing private work only.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Aha.

Payman Langroudi: So. [00:52:40] Okay. You worked as a nurse there.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me, tell me any [00:52:45] bit of information about what it’s like being a nurse compared to being a dentist. Like, what’s one [00:52:50] thing about being a nurse that most dentists don’t appreciate?

Perrin Shah: Um, they [00:52:55] are humans as well. I would say, because.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: If patients are annoyed with [00:53:00] the dentist.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: They will start, you know, moaning at you that [00:53:05] you’re not suctioning properly. There’s a lot of pressure. But you can see it’s not you, it’s the dentist. [00:53:10] But all you have to say is. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. And the [00:53:15] other thing is, you know.

Payman Langroudi: You sometimes get a dentist treating you badly, like, not not badly, but, like, you know, that [00:53:20] sort of. Yeah. Hierarchy.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. Thing they’re not in a good mood. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:53:25] A lot of times.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you know, like some people say the dentist leaves and doesn’t even say thank you [00:53:30] at the end of the day. Like, does that happen?

Perrin Shah: Yeah. I mean, so many times. [00:53:35] And then you also feel that how is in a good mood today. So that my day [00:53:40] goes good because, you know, if he or she is in a bad mood, your day is ruined because [00:53:45] they just.

Payman Langroudi: You know, did most of them know you were a dentist or sometimes.

Perrin Shah: All of them.

Payman Langroudi: You still [00:53:50] shout at you?

Perrin Shah: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because they really.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. And then you just have to say. But the thing is, [00:53:55] we I had taken a step back as well because I was not from this country. Yeah I know. So I knew [00:54:00] that I have to make a position by myself. Also, the other thing [00:54:05] what we came across was the accent. Yeah, I could understand, but [00:54:10] I was not sure if they can understand me. I know. So I yeah, [00:54:15] I don’t know. And I was like, okay, should I work hard on hard on this? So then I went on to become a head [00:54:20] receptionist in a specialist practice in Bristol. That was quite life changing for [00:54:25] me.

Payman Langroudi: Which practice.

Perrin Shah: Was that? It was Bristol Specialist Dental Clinic.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I know that one.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. And I [00:54:30] had a lovely time there. And they are still my friends. I go to their events.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:54:35] even like so like you don’t become head receptionist by mistake, do you? Like you [00:54:40] were trying your hardest and. Yeah. Trying to be very good. Yeah. Even the sort of nursing reception [00:54:45] jobs. Yeah. Which is admirable. It’s admirable. Man. You go from being the daughter of an industrialist [00:54:50] at your own practice to working your hardest as a dental nurse, I like that.

Perrin Shah: But I didn’t want [00:54:55] it to sit at home. That was the thing. I didn’t want it to sit at home. I didn’t want it to leave dentistry. [00:55:00] Yeah. Because I absolutely loved dentistry. Once I got into it, I loved. So if you [00:55:05] see my Instagram, my Facebook, everything is about teeth. Yeah. I don’t follow people much [00:55:10] because I love dentistry. That’s the thing. And I was like, okay, let’s [00:55:15] let’s get it. And being on being on head receptionist or receptionist. I would say the amount of [00:55:20] um, communication skills are built up. Even talking on phone with them, you know, [00:55:25] reminders, booking appointments, greeting them. And then you got to know that, okay, I’m [00:55:30] the first point of contact, how important person I am to the patient who are coming to the practice.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. People [00:55:35] don’t appreciate how important the receptionist is.

Perrin Shah: But this practice did lovely practice. I would say [00:55:40] if anyone gets a chance, go and work there.

Payman Langroudi: Who was the boss?

Perrin Shah: Uh, it was my. [00:55:45] It is owned by my dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, is it was it was it was it. Yeah.

Perrin Shah: Okay. And then that that that [00:55:50] point, I was like, okay, the GDC is still short. Two years, no exams. [00:55:55] Let’s apply for dental hygiene and therapy.

Payman Langroudi: Oh that route.

Perrin Shah: Yeah, yeah. So I took that route [00:56:00] because I wanted to start clinical because I was just wasting my time. Yeah, yeah. And then. [00:56:05]

Payman Langroudi: Did you worry that, you know, like, you might have forgotten how to give an ID block and any of.

Perrin Shah: That? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s a worry, [00:56:10] isn’t it?

Perrin Shah: I didn’t, uh, use the handpiece for about more than two years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:56:15] And sometimes now you go on vacation for two weeks and you’re a little bit shaky. Yeah.

Perrin Shah: Imagine how [00:56:20] it would be.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: For two years.

Payman Langroudi: I always thought about it. I took five years off and then went back. [00:56:25] And I used to think to myself, I was worried about it, for sure, but I used to think to myself, loads of women have babies for five years [00:56:30] and come back. Yeah. So that was for me. Five years was the number that I thought. It’s just about doable. [00:56:35] Yeah. What was shocking, though, what was surprising for me was in that five years, people [00:56:40] got better and I didn’t. Yeah. And you don’t actually realise it’s true. But in that [00:56:45] five years, it became standard for everyone to use rubber dam for posterior [00:56:50] composites. Whereas before that five years it wasn’t. Not many were doing that in that five years rotary [00:56:55] endo came in. Yeah, yeah. And I was only ever using hand files. Yeah. And suddenly [00:57:00] almost everyone was using rotary endo. And so, you know, shockingly, the market got better while [00:57:05] I hadn’t. And that surprised me. That surprised me. So. Okay. Now, how did you then [00:57:10] become a dentist? You did the oral.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. So? So that’s how I got into my dentist. [00:57:15] Yeah, we had this area manager at that time was Tim Paul, and he knew I had [00:57:20] applied for hygiene therapy, so I just asked him, I’ll be hopefully getting registered [00:57:25] in a year’s time because that’s how long they took. Yeah. If you have any jobs, let me know. Yeah. And [00:57:30] he said, I will get you a job because that time dental therapy was boom. Everybody [00:57:35] wanted a therapist. So that’s how I got into my dentist. I started working [00:57:40] as a therapist. I would say June 2022. [00:57:45] And that’s when I passed my oral part one and part two in the same year, [00:57:50] because I just wanted to get it done out of the way.

Payman Langroudi: That’s also a tough exam, right?

Perrin Shah: Very tough exam. [00:57:55]

Payman Langroudi: So were you hitting the books hard?

Perrin Shah: More of smart study, I would say, because the passing percentage [00:58:00] is 50%. You should know what you are studying. Yeah, because you’ll forget after that. I’m pretty sure [00:58:05] nothing. Nothing helps. Only the communication skills helps. So I would say any [00:58:10] overseas dentist coming to the UK should know the communication skills. Thank you. [00:58:15] Sorry. How can I help you? It’s lovely to meet you. And all those things are required in this [00:58:20] country for the patients.

Payman Langroudi: Super important, super important.

Perrin Shah: It’s every day thing and [00:58:25] this is what they teach us in Harare.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So then [00:58:30] you passed part one. Yeah. And carried on as a therapist. Yes. And [00:58:35] then.

Perrin Shah: Passed my part two in the same year.

Payman Langroudi: And then.

Perrin Shah: And then joined.

Payman Langroudi: You were available [00:58:40] to be a dentist.

Perrin Shah: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And with my dentist like very sort of supportive at that point. [00:58:45] Very supportive because they knew who you were by now. Right.

Perrin Shah: And the criteria to get [00:58:50] registered with the NHS performer list was you should have at least three months of experience in the last two [00:58:55] years. Well, like us being in being Covid dentist, we had [00:59:00] no experience. Yeah. So they gave us private work for first three months. Yeah. [00:59:05] And that we used it for our experience to apply for the performer list. So this is how it [00:59:10] took six months. And then I had a stable private list and started on NHS. [00:59:15] And then there you go.

Payman Langroudi: What a journey. What a journey, man. [00:59:20] Yeah. You know, just to get to work.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. It was crazy to. To [00:59:25] start working as a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I bet you felt proud of yourself right at the end of that journey. Yeah. [00:59:30] So then now. Now you’re an associate at a my dentist. [00:59:35] Do you sometimes reflect on, you know, you were the boss in [00:59:40] your previous place in India, and now you’re an associate here, and it must [00:59:45] it must grate on you. So that, I mean, when when you were working in your own place, [00:59:50] you could change something tomorrow.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. It takes a very long time [00:59:55] to get your work approved. They do approve all of my requests. It [01:00:00] just takes a very long time.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of requests? Like, if you’re looking for a new piece of equipment or something.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. [01:00:05] So let’s say a new, new material which I want to use. Yeah. You have to [01:00:10] fill in a material request. Yeah, you have to fill in a form. You have to write down what [01:00:15] advantage it will give to your patient, how it will upskill the income, and [01:00:20] what are the charges and how many days you work, and [01:00:25] then how many private patients you do. And then you submit this to the head nurse or the manager. They [01:00:30] take it forward and then you don’t know whether it will get approved or not. But till date they [01:00:35] haven’t even rejected even once. But it does take a long time. Very long time. How [01:00:40] long? At least four weeks. I would say.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not that bad. It’s not that bad. [01:00:45] You know, I’ve been surprised that they’ve been very good at approving our materials list. For instance, [01:00:50] you know, we did this composite, um, course as well. And it got to a point where I said, look, [01:00:55] why bother sending your people to the courts if they can’t get the materials?

Perrin Shah: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But then but then they were [01:01:00] very good at it. They were very good with it. Um, you know, working for a corporate is a funny thing [01:01:05] because there are benefits to it. Yeah. And what I found is [01:01:10] this is before your time. Yeah, but maybe ten, 15 years ago, no [01:01:15] one used to do it on purpose. It was like, I’m just getting this job because, you know, I need a job. [01:01:20] But now I know. I know plenty of people who choose to go and work for a corporate. And, [01:01:25] you know, different corporates do different things. But it’s almost like, you know, what you’re going to get. [01:01:30] Yes. And when you go to the independent sector, you might get something fantastic like your, you know, [01:01:35] where you did work somewhere or you might get something. Yeah.

Perrin Shah: That’s very true. [01:01:40]

Payman Langroudi: You know, so knowing what you’re going to get is it’s kind of an important point. What else would you say are the [01:01:45] benefits?

Perrin Shah: I would say I when I was working as a nurse in an independent [01:01:50] practice, I could understand dentistry because I could know what was [01:01:55] happening. Um, with my with corporates, I would say, um, they pay [01:02:00] us on time. Every 15th you get money in your account no matter what. Yeah. Even if [01:02:05] it’s Christmas you get beforehand. Yeah, but with independent, I knew we used to keep [01:02:10] on asking, where’s the money for this month?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, my wife used to work in a place six months. She didn’t get paid. [01:02:15]

Perrin Shah: Yeah, so I knew this, and I was like, no, this is people have EMIs, people have mortgages, [01:02:20] and they rely on the salary. This is not done. And there would be always [01:02:25] some glitch in the accounts you have to keep on asking. I have seen associates when I was working [01:02:30] as a nurse, they used to keep they were behind the dentist. That our accountant [01:02:35] that. Why why is this wrong? But with corporates everything is so, so crystal clear. [01:02:40] Even if there’s something they are very good in getting back to you. Yeah, I would say that.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:02:45] do quite a lot of enlighten.

Perrin Shah: A lot. Yeah, I love it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What do [01:02:50] you think is the difference between why is it some dentists do loads and then you [01:02:55] get other dentists who just don’t want to talk about the colour of teeth. You know, like, why do you find it easy [01:03:00] and others find it so hard.

Perrin Shah: Personally, I feel it’s the mindset. [01:03:05] Yeah. If they think its price is too expensive, they’re not going to sell it. Yeah. How I [01:03:10] see is you’re getting the product, you’re getting the experience and you’re getting the colour. Yeah. [01:03:15] So why shouldn’t we charge this?

Payman Langroudi: But outside of charging, I mean then you could say okay, a [01:03:20] cheaper whitening, but I’m talking about whitening itself. A lot of dentists worry about I [01:03:25] don’t want to embarrass the patient. I don’t want to offend the patient. All these sort of things. Yeah. [01:03:30] Whereas others, it’s like water off a duck’s back. They feel like very comfortable. When I, when I was a [01:03:35] dentist. Before we even started the company. Right. I used to do loads and loads of whitening, which is kind of maybe the reason we went this way. [01:03:40] Yeah. I used to feel like if I don’t talk about it, I’ve done a disservice to the patient. [01:03:45] Yeah. I had no worry about it, but loads and loads of dentists, you know, have trouble [01:03:50] with anything that isn’t a youneed conversation. And, you know, whitening isn’t [01:03:55] a you need a conversation.

Perrin Shah: So I all I ask them is what are your are your concerns? [01:04:00] What do you like about your smile and what you don’t? And I would [01:04:05] say 99% of them say I don’t. Yeah, I don’t have 100% [01:04:10] the smile I want. And then my conversation starts from there. Okay. So how can I help [01:04:15] you?

Payman Langroudi: Is that you say that to every single patient. What do you like about your smile and what.

Perrin Shah: You tried to. Until I. Unless I’m running [01:04:20] late.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, of course, of course, of course. Yeah, but that’s a great starting point. That’s a great starting.

Perrin Shah: I’m trying. I’m trying to build [01:04:25] it. Make it a routine now. And, um, before [01:04:30] I started whitening, I was quite not sure would I [01:04:35] want to sell whitening because myself, I hate sensitivity. So when [01:04:40] I was doing my masters, um, there was a guy from the marketing team had [01:04:45] just come to, you know, sell his product. Yeah. And we just used [01:04:50] it and oh, my God, I had a bit of sensitivity, but my my, um, colleague, [01:04:55] he was, uh, he used to smoke a lot. What? So when he got his wife, he started crying. [01:05:00] He said, Baron, I can’t even have my dinner or not. I can drink my water. And then [01:05:05] I was like, oh my God. Whitening gives a lot of sensitivity. I’m not ever going to sell it to my patient. Yeah. When [01:05:10] I when I got to know about enlighten, I did the course with you and then I was [01:05:15] like, before I even I’m going to sell it to my patient, I’m going to do it on myself. So I got it done. [01:05:20] I was super pleased. I by third week I could see the difference myself. [01:05:25] My nurses started saying, oh Baron, what have you done to your teeth? They look so white. And [01:05:30] then I didn’t even do the top of, you know, the syringes and my shade is [01:05:35] still the same. And then that’s what I sell it.

Payman Langroudi: So once you, once you saw it for yourself, you got massively [01:05:40] confident to confident.

Perrin Shah: And I tell the patients that if I can do it, you can definitely [01:05:45] can. And if there’s sensitivity, I can’t promise there wouldn’t be. But I’m here to look after you and [01:05:50] oh my God, so many of my patients with tetracycline staining hypoplasia. [01:05:55] And they have had tears in their eyes because they never believed that [01:06:00] they could have achieved the shade. And that’s what gives me pleasure of me treating [01:06:05] the patients. So this is, I would say, my personal experience of selling enlightened to my patients as compared [01:06:10] to the other dentists in the practice.

Payman Langroudi: Have you tried the pen?

Perrin Shah: Not yet. [01:06:15]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you like that?

Perrin Shah: I have started with two patients who have given the pen.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, they haven’t finished yet.

Perrin Shah: But [01:06:20] now they are ongoing, so. But they haven’t come back to me with sensitivity. So I’m pretty much like. [01:06:25]

Payman Langroudi: You like that? Yeah. You know what we do when we develop the product? We try and focus on the super difficult patients. [01:06:30] Yeah. And once, once you get a patient like I’ve got one patient, there was a time where we used to tell [01:06:35] our customers, send us all the super difficult patients. I’ve got one patient. If she puts her tray [01:06:40] in no jail, she gets massive sensitivity. Oh, like massive sensitivity. Okay, [01:06:45] just by putting the tray in place here. So that patient ends up becoming one that I want to [01:06:50] test things on. Because the thought process is, if I can make any difference there. Then [01:06:55] the normal patient is going to get massive. Yeah, that’s the idea. Or get some patients who [01:07:00] get like tetracycline with very thin enamel. Yeah. That’s the biggest nightmare situation of them all. Yeah. If [01:07:05] you can get that patient anywhere at all, then a regular patient with enamel who’s not a [01:07:10] tetracycline, then you know, that’s actually how we got the attachments. Exactly. Came [01:07:15] from that.

Perrin Shah: And I would say I, I have received a lot of five [01:07:20] star Google reviews with enlighten, and I do only enlighten. So my dentist [01:07:25] now have I think several. They have had Philips and Enlighten [01:07:30] and I have never done any Philips on any of the patients, but I know [01:07:35] some of my nurses who were doing it. They said parent, let’s say today I want my teeth [01:07:40] are so sensitive, can you do something? And all I had to say is use Sensodyne. You know there’s [01:07:45] nothing else we can do. And then enlighten came in. I [01:07:50] have not even sold one Philips Phillips to any because I didn’t try it myself, so I don’t know [01:07:55] how I would be confident enough to give it to within time. I’m so I know [01:08:00] if anything goes wrong, I’m here to help you and I know you guys are fab, so [01:08:05] you guys are so easily accessible. Just a call away that this patient has this [01:08:10] problem. How can we fix it? And there you go. The next day the materials are in the [01:08:15] practice. So this is the service we like.

Payman Langroudi: Nice to hear.

Perrin Shah: That. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Nice to hear that. Um, [01:08:20] on this pod we like to talk about mistakes so [01:08:25] that, you know, we can learn from each other’s mistakes. What comes to mind when I say clinical [01:08:30] errors? What? What have you done?

Perrin Shah: Most important, I would feel communication.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: Even [01:08:35] if you missed out something small, which is small for you but big for the patient, [01:08:40] it brings out a massive, um, loss [01:08:45] of your patient. They lose trust in you.

Payman Langroudi: To give me the example. [01:08:50]

Perrin Shah: Um, let’s say about, um, [01:08:55] Crown. Yeah. You give all the options for the crown, but you missed out on [01:09:00] a metal crown, which is the cheapest just because it’s a private patient. Yeah. And then [01:09:05] because metal is NHS, I work both NHS and private, so it doesn’t come to your [01:09:10] mind straight away. But then that’s what I learned from that mistake. That. So the patient was [01:09:15] just said why didn’t you give an option of metal crown on private. [01:09:20] Because that’s an option. I said 100%. And then he didn’t come. He [01:09:25] lost trust in me, basically because he was like, this dentist is just.

Payman Langroudi: He thought you were pushing [01:09:30] the private. He was a private patient. Yeah. Yeah.

Perrin Shah: So that’s that [01:09:35] happened very early in my career with my dentist. Yeah. And then I was like, no. Now [01:09:40] my notes say metal ceramic fused to metal, porcelain [01:09:45] fused metal and zirconia or porcelain. So I always remember I have [01:09:50] to tell them and it’s it’s up to them.

Payman Langroudi: What about your your most difficult patient [01:09:55] was that was that actually I’m going to guess that was the UK that wasn’t [01:10:00] India in India. Uh, no. No, I’m going to guess your most difficult one was British. [01:10:05] Am I wrong.

Perrin Shah: 100% in India? You can be nice to the patient. You [01:10:10] can call them. You can give a box of sweets.

Payman Langroudi: Fix this.

Perrin Shah: Problem. Fix this problem. No, [01:10:15] you don’t have anything in your mind that they’re going to sue you at any point here. There’s [01:10:20] always constant worry with what you hear about the cases in the practice.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: Oh [01:10:25] my God. Every patient you feel today, they are so good. Tomorrow they can be your [01:10:30] complaint. So I had a patient. She was a private patient. [01:10:35] Saw a colleague eight months ago, uh, with a pike apical [01:10:40] periodontitis. Okay, with severe pain. And the dentist had opened up. The third [01:10:45] gave a dressing and just advise Advice. Root canal treatment with crown or replacement. Options [01:10:50] extraction and replacement. So she took. She was fine. [01:10:55] She didn’t come for eight months. The pain came again. She saw me for emergency. We charge [01:11:00] £99 for emergency. She came in and she came and she was very rude. [01:11:05] She said, you guys don’t do a good job. Just get the tooth out. And I said, okay, that’s fine. Quite [01:11:10] young 35 year old. And I said, we can’t save your tooth. If you want to [01:11:15] now get the tooth out right now. I said, okay, that’s fine. I have 30 [01:11:20] minutes. I’ll try my best. I got the tooth out, gave sutures [01:11:25] everything. And I said, okay, the healing will take place. The post-operative [01:11:30] instructions. I gave her everything. And I advised her some painkillers. In an [01:11:35] hour, she calls back and she said, the pain is horrible.

Perrin Shah: I said, yes, you need to take your painkillers because [01:11:40] the numbing injection has worn off now. She said, I took one. It’s not helping. [01:11:45] I’m helping. I’m taking Co-codamol. Nothing is helping. And. And she was just calling the practice every [01:11:50] five minutes, and they were telling me that this patient is constantly calling us do something. [01:11:55] It’s like. Okay, I said. Then she I called her, I [01:12:00] said, what’s wrong? Give some time. Everything will be fine. She said, no, I called my GP. [01:12:05] The GP said, you have to fix me. I said, yes, I’ll fix you but just give yourself [01:12:10] some time. Take painkillers. If you don’t take Co-codamol, it’s too strong. Just take two ibuprofen. [01:12:15] You’ll be fine. Fine. Next day she calls back and she said, [01:12:20] I think the socket is infected, I need antibiotics. I said, I can’t prescribe you [01:12:25] antibiotics over the phone. I have to see you first. She came in again. The socket was not infected. [01:12:30] Nothing I touched. She didn’t had pain, but she just said the pain is too bad. [01:12:35] Give me antibiotics. And I was a bit sceptical. I was like.

Payman Langroudi: What do you think was going on there?

Perrin Shah: It’s [01:12:40] just anxiety. It was more was more psychological, I would say. And what [01:12:45] happened was I said, okay, I’ll give you antibiotics. And she she started to threaten me that [01:12:50] the GP said, if the dentist doesn’t give you antibiotics, the GP is going to file a case. And I said, no, it [01:12:55] doesn’t work like that. I know what you are saying. Yeah. And then I [01:13:00] gave her antibiotics in the end. I said, if she’s happy, just take your antibiotics. Yeah. She didn’t come back [01:13:05] three months later. She sent an email, a written complaint that [01:13:10] she wants her money back. £99. And I was like, I have done [01:13:15] everything you could. I have given you antibiotics. I got the tooth out. I saw you for follow up.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:13:20] did you do?

Perrin Shah: I contacted my indemnity.

Payman Langroudi: For £99.

Perrin Shah: Because that’s that’s the rule [01:13:25] in the.

Payman Langroudi: In my dentist.

Perrin Shah: My dentist? Yeah. She said give money [01:13:30] back. She said it’s up to you. But the patient was very local. So I was like, [01:13:35] if I she’s got back to me after three months because somebody has told her to try to file a written [01:13:40] complaint and you might get your money back. So I said, let’s try a return, a response [01:13:45] to her complaint and take it from there. So I didn’t give her money back and that was [01:13:50] it.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Nothing happened.

Perrin Shah: Nothing happened.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, nice.

Perrin Shah: So I thought if I give her £99. [01:13:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: This is a word of mouth. She’ll tell everyone in the area [01:14:00] that she gives money back. Just file a complaint.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a possibility.

Perrin Shah: I tried, but [01:14:05] then that’s it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s also. It’s not nice to give [01:14:10] money back when you feel like someone’s trying something on you.

Perrin Shah: Yeah, that’s what I felt.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not about the [01:14:15] money. It’s about the. The victory. The person’s giving. Yeah. On the other hand, um, [01:14:20] when I was a dentist, I was giving money back all the time. Like, if the slightest. I just give money back when people didn’t used [01:14:25] to ask for their money back. Like to be super duper on, like, any small problem. Yeah, [01:14:30] you just try that once. Although, I don’t know, maybe in my dentist there’s a process to giving money back. [01:14:35]

Perrin Shah: No, no, you can give it straight away.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Can you?

Perrin Shah: And it’s up to us. I have given money to the [01:14:40] patients back if they are not happy. I said you are not happy. Take the money back.

Payman Langroudi: So hear me out. Hear me out. The [01:14:45] you get a patient you’re doing. I know three fillings on them. The patient says something. Something, [01:14:50] anything. The next visit says, oh, I had a little bit of sensitivity on one of them, but it’s settling down. Yeah. [01:14:55] Surprise and delight. I’ve taken the charge of that one off. Yeah, it’s it’s such [01:15:00] a weird sort of. It doesn’t sound like it’s the right thing to do. Yeah, but you win this massive [01:15:05] win with the patient at that point. Yeah. I used to buy, um, Sonic airs myself [01:15:10] as an associate and surprise and delight patients with them for no reason. [01:15:15] Yeah. And by the way, I here’s free electric toothbrush. The amount of patients that would then come to me [01:15:20] because these people would refer to me, I would give them to the patients. I’d done sort of high end [01:15:25] treatment to. Yeah, yeah. The amount of work I got from these Sonic airs. Yeah. And I remember [01:15:30] my boss being sort of he didn’t want to be involved in it, so I bought my own ones. Yeah.

Perrin Shah: No, I [01:15:35] have.

Payman Langroudi: Surprise and delight. Works well. Or sometimes, uh, extirpate the park. Get the patient [01:15:40] out of the pain. Yeah. No charge.

Perrin Shah: No charge. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve done so much I give. [01:15:45] Yeah. I’ve. I’ve given them money for root canal treatments back, which is like 650, £700,000 [01:15:50] sometimes. Yeah. But this patient, I just thought, why come after three months? [01:15:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.

Perrin Shah: Because somebody has told her something that try doing this. And I was like, no, [01:16:00] she’s very local to us. It’s just going to spread.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting point though. I never thought about it that [01:16:05] way. It’s interesting point.

Perrin Shah: I thought let’s try.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah.

Perrin Shah: I spoke to my colleague as well. She’s quite senior in the [01:16:10] practice. Yeah. And she said, yeah, I tried.

Payman Langroudi: What does the future hold for you? Me? [01:16:15] You’re going to open another practice?

Perrin Shah: I would want to. So currently I’m doing my [01:16:20] MSC in endodontics. Are you with Simply Endo. If you have heard about it. Yeah, I know that [01:16:25] university. They are affiliated to University of Chester.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Perrin Shah: And I’m in. [01:16:30] I have finished my year one. I’ve, I’m going to go to year two in February [01:16:35] which is the speech of diploma. You can leave after that if you want. Or you can complete your thesis, which [01:16:40] is dissertation in year three. So I don’t know what’s going to happen after year two, but I’ve started doing a lot of [01:16:45] root canal within the practice.

Payman Langroudi: I like that.

Perrin Shah: So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then Ender. Ender [01:16:50] is underrated, man.

Perrin Shah: I think it’s bread and butter of the practice, which most of the people don’t like it. [01:16:55] Yeah, but.

Payman Langroudi: It’s really.

Perrin Shah: Underrated.

Payman Langroudi: It’s really underrated by dentists because we’ve all had one [01:17:00] difficult endo when we were a student. And as a job, I think the best thing about [01:17:05] it is you don’t have to sell anything. Yeah. Yeah. If let’s say, let’s say you get internal referral [01:17:10] for endo. Yeah. You’ll be busy doing high like value work. [01:17:15] Yeah. Getting people out of pain, which is always lovely. Yeah, but also not selling a goddamn [01:17:20] thing to anyone. There’s a nice thing about the pressure of sales. It’s a pain in [01:17:25] the end when you’re a dentist, you know?

Perrin Shah: Yeah. And it’s so straightforward. You do a root canal [01:17:30] treatment, and then you just say you need a crown. Otherwise the. Yeah, yeah, it will have [01:17:35] problems. And the patient already has paid money towards the root canal and they [01:17:40] go for Crown straight away. Don’t even think should I pay for this or not. So it’s a win win [01:17:45] situation I would say. Yeah. And it’s bread and butter. There’s [01:17:50] so many endo cases every day. If people start liking, they’ll start making, they’ll [01:17:55] start seeing the difference okay.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re doing that. And is there plans for a practice or.

Perrin Shah: No I would want [01:18:00] to open my practice. Yeah 100% at some point.

Payman Langroudi: Cool. Indulge me. Let’s say let’s say you had [01:18:05] like a dream practice. Let’s say billionaire came over and said go go crazy. What are [01:18:10] you thinking? Are you like, high end cosmetic or like which which kind of which angle would you go more [01:18:15] towards?

Perrin Shah: Paediatric dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really?

Perrin Shah: Yeah. Because what [01:18:20] I’ve seen in southwest is there’s no private. There’s one in Bristol. [01:18:25] Yeah. There’s nothing else. Most of the all of the patients go to Bristol Dental Hospital. [01:18:30] Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And I think Private Pete has actually ignored, you know, because. But [01:18:35] I would have taken my kid to a Private Pete’s if I, if if I wasn’t a dentist, you know. [01:18:40]

Perrin Shah: And I would want, I would want myself to qualify for sedation first.

Payman Langroudi: You’re [01:18:45] a glutton for punishment, man. But I suppose you need to. Right. [01:18:50]

Perrin Shah: Yeah. So if I want to do Pete’s, I should know. Sedation. Yeah. So get [01:18:55] that sorted first. Endo is on the way. And then hopefully a practice. [01:19:00]

Payman Langroudi: I’m impressed.

Perrin Shah: Man. But I have to save up a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: Unless [01:19:05] you have some investors, let me know.

Payman Langroudi: The billionaire? Yeah. Um, [01:19:10] how do you find Bristol? One of my favourite cities, I love Bristol.

Perrin Shah: Lovely. It’s. [01:19:15]

Payman Langroudi: Do you live in Bristol?

Perrin Shah: I live in Bristol. I live in Frenchay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Oh, friendship. Yeah, I know it.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. Lovely [01:19:20] city. There’s so much to do. There’s so much to do in Somerset. Keeps you as busy all the time. [01:19:25] So many walking trails. We bike a lot.

Payman Langroudi: So do you. We’re gonna [01:19:30] end it end it with the usual fantasy dinner party.

Perrin Shah: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests, dead [01:19:35] or alive.

Perrin Shah: Um, so it would be my grandmother. [01:19:40] She’s no more, unfortunately.

Payman Langroudi: Were you close?

Perrin Shah: Very close. [01:19:45]

Payman Langroudi: On your mom’s side.

Perrin Shah: On my dad’s side? Yeah. She was. She. She [01:19:50] was the person where she was very social. She was a principal in a school, and she [01:19:55] was working just a day before she passed away. Oh, she was people [01:20:00] friendly. And I would want to become like her at some point in my life. [01:20:05] I wish I could go even closer to her.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Perrin Shah: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Who else?

Perrin Shah: Um. I [01:20:10] lost a very close friend in my dental [01:20:15] school. So it was an accident. She was my roommate.

Payman Langroudi: Uh.

Perrin Shah: In [01:20:20] hostel, and we were coming back from Mumbai to, uh, [01:20:25] the dental school, and it was a three hour journey, basically in train. So once we reach the station, we [01:20:30] used to have this, um, Uber cabs and we were in that and [01:20:35] the truck, the there was a truck passing by next to [01:20:40] our cab and the tire, the rear tire just bursted. [01:20:45] Bearsted like just I don’t know the pressure or what, I don’t know. The [01:20:50] driver passed away at that point. My friend passed away at that point, the [01:20:55] one in front of the driver is the one next to him. She had 36 [01:21:00] bone fractures.

[TRANSITION]: Oh my God.

Perrin Shah: And oh my God. [01:21:05]

Payman Langroudi: And you were there. You were on the.

Perrin Shah: Other side on the back in the in the car behind that. So I’ve seen everything. We [01:21:10] we stopped there and I could see organs on the.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness.

Perrin Shah: I [01:21:15] just don’t want to go back there. But I wish we had spent some more time together because she was [01:21:20] so lovely. Yeah. And yeah, she didn’t. And that’s destiny, [01:21:25] you know. You don’t know. It wasn’t your fault. Nobody’s fault. It was the truck next.

Payman Langroudi: To.

Perrin Shah: You. But [01:21:30] it’s. It’s how it is.

Payman Langroudi: What do you believe [01:21:35] about that? Do you believe in destiny?

Perrin Shah: No, I don’t believe in destiny.

Payman Langroudi: Karma.

Perrin Shah: Karma. [01:21:40]

Payman Langroudi: Do you believe in karma?

Perrin Shah: A very strong believer. Yeah. I don’t believe in luck.

Payman Langroudi: Do [01:21:45] you believe in God?

Perrin Shah: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Took a bit too long to say that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:21:50] I mean, it’s.

Perrin Shah: More of a belief.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: But it gives me calmness in [01:21:55] myself. It makes me when I pray. Yeah, it just gives me a sense of satisfaction. [01:22:00] Uh, so we we are so grateful to God, to parents for the life they [01:22:05] have given us.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Perrin Shah: So it’s it’s just something invisible. But you have a very strong karma. [01:22:10]

Payman Langroudi: Karma. Do you believe in, in, in like supernatural karma.

Perrin Shah: And [01:22:15] it has happened to me.

[TRANSITION]: Supernatural.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. What you do will come back to you. [01:22:20]

Payman Langroudi: No. But what do you do? I was good to you in Bristol. Now you’re good to me now. Yeah. It’s obvious. It’s an obvious thing. [01:22:25] That’s not supernatural. That’s obvious. That’s just. That’s just. That’s just one thing leads to another. But [01:22:30] do you believe in supernatural? Go on. Karma happens. I find some money on the floor. I [01:22:35] don’t hand it in. I go and buy something. That thing screws my life up. Yes.

Perrin Shah: So if. [01:22:40] Let’s say you find £1,000 note on the floor, you [01:22:45] take it, you know it’s not yours.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: You buy a very good phone [01:22:50] for you. I’m pretty sure that phone will not last long. 110%. [01:22:55]

Payman Langroudi: I love that 110%. Because.

Perrin Shah: Because I have [01:23:00] not been through that. But I have seen that even if just.

Payman Langroudi: Like bad energy. [01:23:05]

Perrin Shah: Yeah, if I have betrayed someone or I’ve just given some negative comments to someone or I’ve done [01:23:10] something wrong unknowingly, that has come back to me in the same situation with a different [01:23:15] person. And I could sense it that, oh, this. That’s what it was I did wrong [01:23:20] to that person today. It’s happening to me. I’m a very, very I could I wish I could make a tattoo of karma. [01:23:25] I’m so.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry. You know? But don’t you believe good things happen to bad people as well?

Perrin Shah: They do.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:23:30] that’s not karma, is it? It’s anti anti karma.

Perrin Shah: But it’s if they would have done something good [01:23:35] in their life.

[TRANSITION]: Oh I see.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah I love it. I [01:23:40] didn’t think our conversation would be going there. But a third person.

Perrin Shah: Um [01:23:45] third person I really want to meet Steve Jobs.

[TRANSITION]: Oh [01:23:50] nice.

Perrin Shah: From where he was and where he went, it’s more. He [01:23:55] was into business. A very ordinary man. Often he was very ordinary man [01:24:00] from where he was to where he went, leaving behind a legacy.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: Which [01:24:05] is just doing numbers in the industry. Yeah. I would want to meet him and [01:24:10] just shake hands, you know that. How did you achieve this?

Payman Langroudi: It’s not the first time Steve Jobs has [01:24:15] been invited to one of these parties. That’s amazing. But I’ve really learned a [01:24:20] lot. Thank you so much for doing this.

Perrin Shah: Thank you, Payman for inviting me. [01:24:25] It’s been an honour, as I said, and it’s been lovely to be here at your studio. Thank you so much.

[TRANSITION]: Thanks. [01:24:30]

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Alicia Willis on to the podcast [01:24:35] as our My Dentist series continues. And you know, you’ve got the [01:24:40] privilege of being the first dental nurse on this podcast, the [01:24:45] first real dental nurse, because we’ve had a couple of dentists who did dental nursing, [01:24:50] in fact, just before, um, but the first real dental nurse and I really wanted [01:24:55] to get dental nurse onto this pod for ages now. Um, how long have you been a nurse [01:25:00] for?

Alicia Willis: About three and a half years. Roughly trained at my dentist. [01:25:05]

Payman Langroudi: And you? Have you had other jobs before that?

Alicia Willis: Yeah. [01:25:10] Retail.

Payman Langroudi: Retail?

Alicia Willis: Yeah. Anything that I could really get my hands on while I [01:25:15] was in school to earn extra money. And I never, ever saw myself doing this job.

Payman Langroudi: But how did it [01:25:20] come about?

Alicia Willis: I got made redundant from a retail job. I kind of needed that kick to do something [01:25:25] more. I don’t know. Worthwhile, I suppose, in my eyes. Um, [01:25:30] I went to er to do nursing at university as, like to work in a hospital. [01:25:35]

Payman Langroudi: Proper nursing?

Alicia Willis: Proper nursing. Decided that was not for me. Hard, hard. Really [01:25:40] hard. Long shifts. Yeah. And I just feel so sorry for everybody, [01:25:45] and I can’t. You can’t go into that job and have such a big heart. Aha. [01:25:50] Um, so I got the opportunity to become a dental [01:25:55] nurse and thought, why not give it a go, see how you get on. And I actually [01:26:00] really enjoy it.

Payman Langroudi: Do you like it from the beginning?

Alicia Willis: Yeah. I thought it was a lot to learn. I [01:26:05] can’t imagine being a dentist. Like, I can imagine there’s so much more, obviously, but [01:26:10] it’s just different. Really different. I never I’ve never [01:26:15] even considered looking at teeth. And now I look at look at everybody’s teeth.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re Claire’s nurse. [01:26:20] Yeah. Sometimes. Right.

Alicia Willis: Every time.

Payman Langroudi: Every time. Okay. And you rotate around some of the other [01:26:25] dentists as well. One thing I’m quite interested in. Have you only ever worked at this? My dentist practice. You’ve never worked at a different. [01:26:30] Okay, so.

Alicia Willis: So I’ve done the odd day.

Payman Langroudi: At other practice. Yeah. Yeah. So [01:26:35] sometimes, you know, it’s interesting to sort of see, you know, how do different businesses run? Yeah. But [01:26:40] I’m quite interested in the question of how do different dentists run. Because [01:26:45] you never know as a dentist, you never know whether what you’re saying and doing is [01:26:50] different to what other people are saying and doing, because you don’t really watch many other [01:26:55] dentists work.

Alicia Willis: I suppose not. They’re all different [01:27:00] in their ways, obviously some more strict than others, I suppose. [01:27:05]

Payman Langroudi: On patient.

Alicia Willis: Both.

Payman Langroudi: Go on.

Alicia Willis: Um, I think [01:27:10] the way that some people come across dentists can be like, I don’t know. For example. [01:27:15] Suction. Sometimes it’s a bit like, oh, I’ve missed my cue. You haven’t. [01:27:20] It’s just the way they speak, the way they are and come across, I think [01:27:25] as well, in front of patients. Dentists are different than when the patient’s not in the room.

Payman Langroudi: Some are right. Do [01:27:30] you find some aren’t though.

Alicia Willis: No some aren’t.

Payman Langroudi: Some are themselves the same.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. Some are still chatty. Some. [01:27:35] Some don’t like you to be chatty when there’s a patient. It’s more serious. Really? [01:27:40] Yeah. Some. Yeah. Some are different.

Payman Langroudi: And so when you’re working with a new dentist, let’s say [01:27:45] you’re having to gauge. What. What kind of dentist is this?

Alicia Willis: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have [01:27:50] you gotten quite good at figuring it out?

Alicia Willis: I’d like to think so. You you can kind of. I find notes [01:27:55] and are a big thing. Yeah. You know, whether they like to hog the computer or not, [01:28:00] hog the computer as to whether or not you’re more of a note writer than a discussion. Um, [01:28:05] but yeah, it’s easy to gauge to start with, I think just [01:28:10] by the initial conversation you have with them as to whether or not they care to get to know you. If [01:28:15] I’ve just stepped foot in the room, I’ve never met them. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then. So let’s let’s say you’ve got [01:28:20] a dentist who don’t click with. Then your whole life, your whole day [01:28:25] is now ruined. Ruined in a way. Yeah.

Alicia Willis: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you know, we do this other podcast. [01:28:30] It’s like a mental health podcast. And, you know, we’ve been really delving into this question [01:28:35] of why do dentists take their own lives much more than loads of other professionals. [01:28:40] Yeah. And I think it’s a very multifactorial thing. But there is this question [01:28:45] of you spend the whole day with your four walls and this one other person, and [01:28:50] if if you and this one person don’t particularly get on or whatever [01:28:55] it is like, maybe it might be nothing to do with you. It might be that person’s own life is stressed [01:29:00] out or I don’t know. The boss has said something to that person to piss him off. Or if you and that one person [01:29:05] aren’t clicking your whole day is totally different to the opposite, [01:29:10] where sometimes you know you really click with click with your nurse and you’re laughing and you’re enjoying and yeah, that [01:29:15] sort of thing. And you know, as a dental nurse, you you’re working with so many different dentists [01:29:20] that you can see that that difference in the working relationship. [01:29:25]

Alicia Willis: Definitely. It’s me and Claire love a sing song. Any given chance we can. [01:29:30] The radio is turned up and we’re singing. It’s just enjoyable. And with dentists, [01:29:35] they are all so different. And some don’t have the radio on. Some like the silence, [01:29:40] some would chat and some will leave the room for a coffee when you’re just alone. So you [01:29:45] get to know who’s who. But I suppose I’m quite chill about if [01:29:50] they’re. If they’re not bothered, then they’re not bothered. If they don’t want to sit and chat or don’t want to sit and chat. [01:29:55] Some days are different for everyone, I suppose.

Payman Langroudi: But then what about this whole hierarchy [01:30:00] of a dental practice? Do you get to get sometimes people sort of, [01:30:05] who clearly want to stamp their authority over you?

Alicia Willis: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Go on. Give me [01:30:10] give me give me an example of how how that pans out. Like what do they do? So I [01:30:15] like things this way. And what what is it?

Alicia Willis: Um. Specifically [01:30:20] things like how you are. How how you mix your alginate. [01:30:25] That’s a big one, I find.

Payman Langroudi: Are they focussed on that?

Alicia Willis: Yeah. Like just different things [01:30:30] that, like, everyone is so different. So alginate. Some people like it better than others. [01:30:35] Some people would rather have it. So it’s literally about to set going in the patient’s mouth. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone’s so different. [01:30:40] Um, and if you do it wrong a couple of times, in their eyes, it’s wrong in your eyes it’s not. [01:30:45] I think they’re they’re like, no, listen to me. I’m, I’m in charge here, [01:30:50] which is fine. But it’s just obviously learning that they don’t mean things. [01:30:55]

Payman Langroudi: I was with a nurse. The treatment finishes, but [01:31:00] your work isn’t finished. Oh, no. Your work almost feels like it’s just continuous. Yeah, [01:31:05] like there is no stop to it because, like, you’re cleaning and cleaning. And then once you’re done, it’s time for [01:31:10] the next patient. Yeah.

Alicia Willis: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Does that does that make the day go quicker, or does that [01:31:15] really tie the hell out of you? Because it must do, I think. Okay. The dentist is doing the notes, [01:31:20] but there’s some sort of break between the being on show and break and being on show and [01:31:25] break.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. It. Some days it’s fine. I suppose if you work private or NHS. [01:31:30] Nhs days are long. They can feel like you’ve got 3040 patients [01:31:35] a day. It does get tiring. Um, but yeah, as soon as you’ve cleaned and set up, the next [01:31:40] one’s in and then out. And it can sometimes seem like, oh, it’s 10:00. I didn’t even realise [01:31:45] the time has gone that quick. Other days I’m thinking, when’s lunch? So it [01:31:50] can vary.

Payman Langroudi: Would you get the dentist who says, hey, do you want to go ahead now? And there’s ten minutes [01:31:55] to lunch.

Alicia Willis: And yeah, no, the root canal box is not coming out at 10 to 12. [01:32:00]

[TRANSITION]: Really?

Alicia Willis: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But sometimes he says, the patient says, yeah, let’s go. Yeah. [01:32:05] You’re not you’re not going to do anything about that, right? There’s nothing to.

Alicia Willis: Do about that. Nothing I can do about that. I’m off. [01:32:10] I go to get the box.

Payman Langroudi: So then I don’t know from the outside. I get the feeling [01:32:15] that there’s obviously there’s good and bad things in every job. But isn’t the worst thing about [01:32:20] the job that you’re not in control of the day?

Alicia Willis: Yeah, I suppose [01:32:25] it is. I’m not. Then again, I, I work on reception [01:32:30] some days. So.

Payman Langroudi: Which one do you prefer?

Alicia Willis: Oh, nursing.

[TRANSITION]: Really?

Alicia Willis: Yeah. [01:32:35]

Payman Langroudi: Why? On reception, you have to ask for money and stuff.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. And everyone will come down and go. This is the worst part, [01:32:40] because they have to pay and reception. It’s nice because you can chat a bit more. You’ve [01:32:45] got time to because they’re just paying and they don’t have to leave and things like that. But [01:32:50] a lot I find if a patient. This is an example, I’ve been on reception, I’ve checked [01:32:55] a patient in and they’re angry because the dentist is running late. Well, I’ve just sat down as a nurse [01:33:00] to check you in, and I’m now your nurse in surgery. And then the [01:33:05] instant attitude changes when they see the dentist and realise, I’ve just spoken to you like rubbish [01:33:10] at reception, and actually now you’re my nurse and I don’t. I find that [01:33:15] people are more rude in reception than they are in surgery. So no, [01:33:20] it’s.

Payman Langroudi: I remember times where the receptionist and the nurse saying, this patient’s [01:33:25] kicking off, and then they come to me and they’re sweet as pie.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That happens.

Alicia Willis: A lot.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:33:30] that must piss you off.

Alicia Willis: Yeah it does. Because you can, you [01:33:35] know, your patience as well. So you know who’s ruder than others, I suppose. Um, [01:33:40] but yeah, when they come in and they see your face and they know you, then you’ve got to nurse for [01:33:45] them. They’re like, oh, you can tell. They think, oh no, I messed up at reception.

Payman Langroudi: What about [01:33:50] do you sometimes can you sometimes tell this is a nervous patient?

Alicia Willis: Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Before the dentist figures [01:33:55] it out.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. When I’ve take them up the stairs and they don’t speak, and I’m like, [01:34:00] are you okay? Have you had a nice day? No. Not now. I’m here. Well, I don’t like being here either. [01:34:05] I kind of have to try and break the ice a bit, saying I’m at work like it’s not great for me, but [01:34:10] I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s such an important part of the job, though. Yeah, because in the end [01:34:15] it’s going to focus in on that tooth.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whereas you can [01:34:20] reassure I mean it’s amazing what a little touch on the shoulder from the dental nurse at [01:34:25] the right moment. Yeah. Can reassure that patient. And you know what. We’re so in it ourselves [01:34:30] here. We completely forget what a nightmare it is being a patient. Yeah. When was the last [01:34:35] time you had a filling?

[TRANSITION]: Um. Excuse [01:34:40] me.

Payman Langroudi: Or anything done? Have you had anything done?

Alicia Willis: Yeah. I’ve had. I’ve had a filling, [01:34:45] um, scale and polish. It’s not always the nicest thing, but having someone [01:34:50] there, you know, that you trust as well, I suppose, because you don’t know the dentist. And also [01:34:55] you don’t know your nurse, but you know that someone’s there sucking [01:35:00] the water away. That is not letting you drown. Stuff. Just little things like that. That I [01:35:05] suppose. And we can chat to them and reassure them. And if I’ve had something done, I’ll [01:35:10] say, look, I’ve had this done, this is what it feels like. And that’s my, my big thing as well [01:35:15] is that I’ve never had an injection in my mouth.

Payman Langroudi: Have you.

Alicia Willis: No, no. So when someone [01:35:20] says, how does that feel. I don’t I don’t know. I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Know.

Alicia Willis: Sorry. So [01:35:25] which is really hard.

Payman Langroudi: You should have one done tomorrow.

Alicia Willis: Yeah, but no Saturday. It’s my day off. [01:35:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Okay.

Alicia Willis: But. But no, like, I haven’t had it done, so I can’t say to them this [01:35:35] is what it feels like. Claire says it feels like you’ve been punched in the mouth. I don’t know what [01:35:40] that feels like. I also haven’t been punched in the mouth.

Payman Langroudi: What are some things about being a dental [01:35:45] nurse that most dentists don’t appreciate? Probably [01:35:50] some dentists don’t appreciate.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. Um, probably [01:35:55] a time spent in, like, the decon room. Like [01:36:00] with all the instruments, all the work that you put into spending the time when the dentist [01:36:05] downed tools and goes home, we spend cleaning down, putting away all the instruments ready [01:36:10] for the morning so they can turn up in their days. Easy. I’d hate. I’d hate [01:36:15] for in the morning to walk into a surgery and it’s empty. Because what use is that to [01:36:20] anyone? And then you rush in in the morning. So I do find that some dentists will go home [01:36:25] instantly. When that patient leaves. They’ll follow them out, come back in the morning and don’t appreciate the work that’s done [01:36:30] when they leave to make sure it’s right for the morning, because there is a lot behind it.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:36:35] bet.

Alicia Willis: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What else?

Alicia Willis: Um, it’s [01:36:40] a really hard question. It’s not something I think about. I [01:36:45] mean, I just get on with it.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you must get dentists who ask you to make them a cup [01:36:50] of tea.

Alicia Willis: Yes, but I’m also quite quick at saying. Can I have some?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:36:55] really?

Alicia Willis: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the opposite. Right. The right? The dentist offers to make you a cup of tea.

Alicia Willis: Yeah, we’re quite lucky [01:37:00] in our practice. We don’t have anyone that’s we don’t have many that think of a hierarchy [01:37:05] either. Really? Yeah. We’re quite lucky. Um, like [01:37:10] I’ll say, have we got time for a cup of tea? Like, if we’ve got a gap or if they say, right, let’s [01:37:15] get the next one in and then we’ve got longer.

Payman Langroudi: I’m just going to have a lot of work to do. [01:37:20] Sorry.

Alicia Willis: It’s all right. Um. So. [01:37:25] Yeah, I wouldn’t say it’s it’s hard work. It’s it just [01:37:30] kind of flows and. No, I do get a cup of tea sometimes. If, if it’s a good day.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:37:35] about career progression.

Alicia Willis: Within my dentist?

Payman Langroudi: Well, as a dental [01:37:40] nurse, I feel like in our profession, we’ve kind of failed in this area. Some [01:37:45] practices are great at it. Some practices. You come in as a trainee, become a nurse, [01:37:50] then further qualifications. They even push people to become hygienists. [01:37:55]

Alicia Willis: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Even dentists. It happens.

Alicia Willis: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um. Tco [01:38:00] rolls, head of reception. The manager rolls these sort of things. And I think in a [01:38:05] corporate, there is much more scope for this sort of thing. Yeah. Than an independent. But, but [01:38:10] but I do come across a bunch of practice principals who say [01:38:15] I don’t want an ambitious nurse. I want someone who comes in, [01:38:20] does their bit, leaves and doesn’t want to go any further in their career, which is heartbreaking, [01:38:25] really, in a way. But you kind of you kind of get it right because they’re saying, you [01:38:30] know, that’s that person in that job and that’s the stable person not constantly moving on. And they have [01:38:35] to.

Alicia Willis: But then for that individual it’s not.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. By the way. By the way, we should we should get that [01:38:40] cleared. There are some individuals who want that job.

Alicia Willis: Probably.

Payman Langroudi: You know, they don’t want to think about [01:38:45] career progression. I mean, maybe it’s not an easy life. Maybe it’s got three children in as a single mum [01:38:50] and just wants to pay the bills, you know, and, you know, you know, doesn’t want doesn’t want any [01:38:55] further stress. You know, it depends on the situation. But the question on [01:39:00] career progression, I think as a as a profession it’s something [01:39:05] that’s lacking. Do where are you with that? I mean, where are you at now? Where do you [01:39:10] want to be? Are they in? My dentist is there. Do they encourage career progression? [01:39:15]

Alicia Willis: I’d say there’s a lot of courses out there that they can put you on that will improve [01:39:20] your knowledge. Like what?

Payman Langroudi: Um, well, oral health, education, that sort of thing.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. We’ve got we’ve [01:39:25] got that. It’s I think it’s harder to get on that because they do it through like an ABN course. So [01:39:30] it’s a harder course to get on. I’ve just done implant training. Oh yeah. Um, which [01:39:35] I find really interesting. It’s not a qualification like any BDM, but it’s [01:39:40] an extra one to even just help you get in, in practice to do it. Um, there’s [01:39:45] lot lots of different courses with radiography or things like that, but I do find that [01:39:50] you like. I don’t know if it’s easier in a city because we’re on such a small area. [01:39:55] I don’t know if because we don’t need radiography train nurses because the practice isn’t big enough. We [01:40:00] only run with four surgeries, so there’s nowhere for us to do x rays. The [01:40:05] dentist may as well just take it in the room as we do it, so there’s no need for the nurse to. So some [01:40:10] some cases like that, then there’s no there’s no reason to do it. Whereas obviously [01:40:15] you need an implant nurse for an implant whereas you can’t do it. So.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:40:20] have you started doing some implant nursing?

Alicia Willis: Yeah. Yeah, I enjoy it. Different gory [01:40:25] sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: Which of all the different things you nurse for different procedures. What’s your favourite [01:40:30] or your least favourite?

Alicia Willis: Whitening.

Payman Langroudi: Whitening is your favourite. Yeah. Oh, amazing.

Alicia Willis: Because [01:40:35] as soon as they walk in, they’re like unhappy. And they walk out [01:40:40] smiling. And what more can you ask for?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s kind of happy dentistry.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. [01:40:45] Um. It’s just.

Payman Langroudi: You do the scanning.

Alicia Willis: Sometimes. Yeah. Um. We [01:40:50] have nurses who prefer to scan. It’s not my favourite thing to do. Admittedly, [01:40:55] yeah. Um, but, yeah, we just send them down to the nurse that’s doing [01:41:00] it at the time. We’ll go and find someone. And if it’s not me, it’s someone else. Um, but. Yeah, it’s [01:41:05] just I just. We never, ever fail with it. It’s just a good guaranteed [01:41:10] thing that you can deliver.

Payman Langroudi: And what’s your [01:41:15] least favourite?

Alicia Willis: Hmm. Probably a scale and polish.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:41:20] really?

Alicia Willis: Yeah. It’s boring.

Payman Langroudi: Really? Because only suction.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. [01:41:25] There’s not much to chat about. It’s. They’re in and they’re out.

Payman Langroudi: In the end. It must be boring. [01:41:30] Yeah.

Alicia Willis: It is. Well, it is, and it isn’t. It’s remembering everything [01:41:35] because there’s a lot going on. So that always I don’t we don’t do it that often. Um, [01:41:40] so getting everything out and sitting, setting up and takes [01:41:45] time. Um, but no, I, I don’t dislike Ando. [01:41:50]

Payman Langroudi: It’s just like with a nurse. You’ve got to be always one step ahead. Like, what’s he going to want next?

Alicia Willis: Oh, [01:41:55] yeah. I like that game.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the key. Key skill, isn’t it? Yeah. Don’t be to guess that right. [01:42:00]

Alicia Willis: Yeah. And when I work with Claire, she’ll describe something to a patient and like, I [01:42:05] don’t know, a slower handpiece. She’ll describe it like a rattling toothbrush. And I know what she [01:42:10] means, so I’ve already got it out the door. Yeah. So stuff like that, it’s. And it’s also knowing [01:42:15] who you work with and what, like no one else would know that. So it’s little things [01:42:20] like that. That.

Payman Langroudi: So. So where do you want to be in five years? Like what do you think you’re going to be doing [01:42:25] in five years time? Do you think you’re going to be doing the same job, or do you not think in five years time [01:42:30] frames or.

Alicia Willis: I, I try not to because you never know what’s going to happen. I also [01:42:35] don’t think Claire would want me to leave her. Yeah, but I don’t. The [01:42:40] hygienist thing would interest me.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Alicia Willis: Yeah. I don’t know. I [01:42:45] don’t think I’d want to do to do therapy, but then I could change my mind in five years. But I [01:42:50] also it’s the responsibility side of it for me that it’s all on [01:42:55] me. Yeah, that freaks me out slightly, but, I mean, you get over that. [01:43:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, of course it freaks you out. Like, you know, we were just talking and, you know, actually, Claire was saying that very [01:43:05] thing. She was saying that the biggest difference between being a nurse and being a therapist is the stress [01:43:10] of messing up. Yeah. And and the stress of a complaint coming in and so [01:43:15] forth. Yeah. Um, yeah. But every job has its [01:43:20] own nuance, right?

Alicia Willis: It does.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, like, I don’t know, you could be a pilot and you’ve got the stress of [01:43:25] a storm or something. Yeah, it’s still some jobs are still worth doing, even though there is stress. Yeah. [01:43:30] Um, but, you know, I’d encourage you if if you’re thinking that way, I’d [01:43:35] encourage you. You might as well, if you’re going to do hygiene, to do therapy as well, because therapists [01:43:40] are so in demand these days. Um, if you if you said to my to my dentist, [01:43:45] that’s what I want to do, they’d support it and help you somehow.

Alicia Willis: I think maybe [01:43:50] not as an individual, but as a whole. I think it’s something they are looking into anyway [01:43:55] with hygienists. Um, so there are bits and pieces, I think, out [01:44:00] there that are being considered. Um, because I’m just probably [01:44:05] just a nurse. I don’t know how they look at us. But I [01:44:10] do think there are opportunities out there that can be had [01:44:15] by nurses when they’re available. And I do think it would be soon. Like in in-house training [01:44:20] rather than going to university, because that for me wouldn’t be ideal. [01:44:25]

Payman Langroudi: Why?

Alicia Willis: Just because we live in such a remote area? The travel to uni? I’d then [01:44:30] have to either probably stay there a couple of days a week, as well as work to afford life. It’s [01:44:35] it’s hard.

Payman Langroudi: It’s what is it, three years?

Alicia Willis: Yeah, I think so. [01:44:40]

Payman Langroudi: It’s worth it, man. Honestly, I know, I know, you said you just bought a house and all [01:44:45] of that stuff. Yeah, but. And it’s hard, right? It’s hard to get [01:44:50] in. Oh, yeah. Super hard to get in and super hard course. Um, [01:44:55] but three years will fly by.

Alicia Willis: Oh. It would. I’d be busy enough to, [01:45:00] uh.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Alicia Willis: Make it fly by.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Um, I’d consider it. You know, you [01:45:05] obviously like dental practices for whatever reason. Yeah. You know what I mean? You did a few jobs, but then [01:45:10] you found one that you like. Yeah, yeah. Within dental practice, there are many roles. And [01:45:15] you can get to this next level quite easily. You’re not easily. You got to get in and all that. Yeah. I wouldn’t [01:45:20] let the the worry of the responsibility get in the way. Um. Mistake. You’ll handle it.

Alicia Willis: Well. [01:45:25] Yeah, I like to think so.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about errors. We like, talk about errors. [01:45:30] Okay. What mistakes have you made? Have you ever done something [01:45:35] where you, the patients complained about, you know.

Alicia Willis: Touch wood?

Payman Langroudi: I [01:45:40] haven’t or a dentist complained about you. Has that ever happened?

Alicia Willis: No. I’ve [01:45:45] actually been to a lot of places, which I don’t want it to sound big headed, but they’ve all said I’ve had [01:45:50] a nice day and that for me is everything. I’d hate for someone to go, don’t put me in with her again, [01:45:55] because that’s not.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. What was your worst day as a dental nurse?

Alicia Willis: It’s [01:46:00] always being put in a different practice because you don’t know the ropes. Everywhere I work slightly [01:46:05] differently. Every person and dentists work differently. The patients expect to come [01:46:10] in six months later and the same routine six months ago. It should be the same.

Payman Langroudi: Does [01:46:15] it happen occasionally where they say, look, we need you somewhere else?

Alicia Willis: Yeah. Um. And that’s. It’s [01:46:20] not. It’s scary. It is. And I know not many nurses probably [01:46:25] enjoy travelling to a different practice where you don’t know anybody. Um, and just [01:46:30] sitting and having lunch with other people. Obviously, you’ve got to start a conversation and get on with [01:46:35] your day to make it go a bit quicker. So it is nerve wracking. And then working with the with the dentist. You are stuck in [01:46:40] four walls with a stranger. So it can be scary. And they all work differently. They all like using [01:46:45] different instruments and different things. And you can’t guess what that dentist wants because you don’t know them. [01:46:50] So that can be hard.

Payman Langroudi: Have you been in the practice? I’ve certainly have, man. Where [01:46:55] there’s like different power bases.

Alicia Willis: What do you mean, power bases?

Payman Langroudi: Like you’ve got? I don’t [01:47:00] know, let’s, for the sake of the argument, say it’s the manageress. And so [01:47:05] and so receptionist are one power base. And then you’ve got the [01:47:10] head nurse and so and so hygienist or another power base. And they hate each [01:47:15] other. And it’s like, it’s like a, it’s like a constant. Like, which team are you in? I’ve [01:47:20] worked in a place like that. Yeah. No I can’t say I have.

Alicia Willis: Yeah I can imagine it won’t. No [01:47:25] I haven’t it’s our practice.

Payman Langroudi: Is a happy.

Alicia Willis: Practice. Nice. Yeah. And [01:47:30] it’s just everyone kind of gets on.

Payman Langroudi: It does sound.

Alicia Willis: Nice from.

Payman Langroudi: From what Claire says about [01:47:35] it as well. It does sound like a nice place to work.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. It is. I never get out of bed and think, oh, I’ve got [01:47:40] to go to work today. Oh, really? Yeah, I just just go and get on with it. And I do enjoy [01:47:45] being there.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I do this thing, this training for enlighten where we talk about, [01:47:50] you know, we’re going to try and focus on enlightened for a week or whatever. Yeah. And then I asked [01:47:55] this question and I say, what would it take to make you want to look forward to coming to work even [01:48:00] more than usual? And it’s a funny one here because I say [01:48:05] it. Yeah. And you’ve got the principle. You’ve got everyone sitting in the room and everyone goes [01:48:10] completely silent. Yeah. And then you have to sort of tell them the other ideas that other people [01:48:15] have had to make it more fun to come to work that day. Yeah. But interestingly, like, I think it’s one of the most [01:48:20] important questions you can answer, right? Like that’s a key question. Yeah. Yeah. What would make [01:48:25] work funner, more fun than it already is? Yeah. And you could go to something simple [01:48:30] like supply pizza. Yeah. Or different hours. Flexibility. I mean, how [01:48:35] do you get around that thought? Yeah, that, you know, you have to turn up every day. And [01:48:40] some of your friends work from home.

Alicia Willis: Yeah, we was just having that conversation upstairs.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Alicia Willis: Were [01:48:45] you? Yeah. Um, I do have to turn up every day. And it would be lovely to wake up in the morning [01:48:50] and think. I’ll stick the kettle on, and then I’ll pick up the phone and have a few phone calls. Because you work from home. [01:48:55] Yeah, but no, you you have to go in every day. My routine is the same. Um, [01:49:00] we set up in the morning exactly the same time. Yeah. Clean down every day. Exactly the same [01:49:05] time. So, no, you you do have to turn.

Payman Langroudi: What I’m saying is your enthusiasm [01:49:10] for the job, right? Where the job entails turning up every day. Sometimes [01:49:15] a thankless job because you’ve got some full dentist who’s like, you know, in a bad mood. [01:49:20] Yeah. Not in control of your day. Yeah. And yet you love it, right? [01:49:25]

Alicia Willis: So the people make a massive difference. Patients know.

Payman Langroudi: The. [01:49:30]

Alicia Willis: Team, the staff. Massively. If, I suppose if one’s in a bad [01:49:35] mood, it ricochets. But no.

Payman Langroudi: Practice.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. Not [01:49:40] really. You can tell when someone’s got an off day, but you try and lift them and you [01:49:45] put. I don’t know, a Christmas song on and it lifts the team spirit a bit. But no, we’re all [01:49:50] quite jolly and do just get on with it. And if something’s not done, you say you ain’t done [01:49:55] this and then someone else picks up the slack.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not funny what you said about the radio. Yeah, because [01:50:00] I used to. When I was a dentist, I used to play classical music. Not because I’m a massive [01:50:05] fan. I mean, kind of. I became a bit of a fan because I kept playing it so much, but I had [01:50:10] it in my head. That’s expensive music. Oh, okay. Yeah. And so I had it in my head [01:50:15] that I was a young fool, to tell you truth. But I had it in my head that if expensive music is playing, I’m [01:50:20] doing expensive work. Right. It all goes together. Yeah. My nurse was [01:50:25] like, I want the local station on. Yeah. And I said, that’s cheap. That’s a [01:50:30] cheap thing. The local station. Whereas this is classical. This is an expensive thing. Yeah. And I was [01:50:35] saying think of that. Think of the business rather than your your day to day. And eventually she started enjoying [01:50:40] the classical too. But but it’s so interesting here because what is on is [01:50:45] actually a massive thing. Mhm. It is.

Alicia Willis: And it is.

Payman Langroudi: The.

Alicia Willis: It like.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of the difference [01:50:50] between happiness and sadness.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. And if I play Christmas songs it annoys people.

Payman Langroudi: That would kill me. [01:50:55] I hate Christmas songs. I’m a bit of a scrooge.

Alicia Willis: Oh, no. See, I [01:51:00] would start playing Christmas songs at the beginning of November after Halloween.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, God.

Alicia Willis: Claire won’t have [01:51:05] that. Yeah, so I’ve only just been allowed to start playing three songs a day.

Payman Langroudi: Well, are you happy to have [01:51:10] Christmas songs all day?

Alicia Willis: Oh, yeah. What heart. Christmas. It’s on in the car all [01:51:15] the time. Yes. So I’m allowed now three a day. Whereas [01:51:20] that turns me into the jolly person. I’ll sing, I’ll dance. [01:51:25]

Payman Langroudi: That’s your.

Alicia Willis: Thing. Yeah. So I.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t.

Alicia Willis: Know. It does lift the.

Payman Langroudi: Spirit once I’ve heard last Christmas. And [01:51:30] do they know it’s Christmas? I think Christmas should be every three years. [01:51:35]

Alicia Willis: No.

Payman Langroudi: Honestly. Honestly, like like the Olympics or something. Every four years because it just comes around so quick. It’s [01:51:40] not special anymore.

Alicia Willis: But it’s a guaranteed thing to look forward to. Special every year.

Payman Langroudi: It’s every year, [01:51:45] you know, it’s two years. Every other year, every other year would be perfect. No, I [01:51:50] don’t like that.

Alicia Willis: And family as well. If people live away, it’s [01:51:55] the one time of year you know, they’re all going to turn up.

Payman Langroudi: That’s true.

Alicia Willis: Because they don’t have a choice. [01:52:00]

Payman Langroudi: Are you born and bred? Skegness?

Alicia Willis: Um, I am, yeah. I’ve got family in [01:52:05] other parts of the UK, but not far away.

Payman Langroudi: Never lived anywhere else?

Alicia Willis: No.

Payman Langroudi: Do you never have [01:52:10] that feeling of. Hey, great wide world? No. Why?

Alicia Willis: It scares the life [01:52:15] out of me.

Payman Langroudi: Why?

Alicia Willis: Because I’m such a homeless.

Payman Langroudi: You know your town so well.

Alicia Willis: Yeah, and [01:52:20] I’m such a home orientated person. Like my mum and dad. I would always [01:52:25] close family. Yeah. If I can. Any chance I get, I’ll go around there. Like, even though I’ve moved [01:52:30] out. And if I don’t know if I was up and moved to Australia, I wouldn’t even know what to [01:52:35] do with myself. I think I’d just sit on FaceTime to them all the time.

Payman Langroudi: So like [01:52:40] going on holiday, right?

Alicia Willis: Yeah, but I know I’m coming back.

Payman Langroudi: Your home is your home.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. [01:52:45] And I feel safe. Yeah, I don’t know. I’ve always been the same. I don’t like going out [01:52:50] of my comfort zone.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. Why not? So you’re happy?

Alicia Willis: I don’t know, this is out of my comfort zone. [01:52:55] But, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s end it with the usual way. [01:53:00] Fantasy dinner party. Three guests, [01:53:05] dead or alive. Who would you have alive. [01:53:10]

Alicia Willis: Harry styles?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah?

Alicia Willis: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like him.

Alicia Willis: I [01:53:15] just think he would bring the.

Payman Langroudi: Joy to.

Alicia Willis: The joy. Yeah. Um. Do [01:53:20] they.

Payman Langroudi: All have a mix of.

Alicia Willis: Dead or alive.

Payman Langroudi: Or dead or alive? I [01:53:25] mean, it could be, I don’t know. Jesus Christ. For all you know.

Alicia Willis: Whoever you are, I’d say Michael Jackson. Oh, [01:53:30] yeah. I have a lot of questions. And I also, I also don’t know if he’s dead or alive because [01:53:35] there’s conspiracies. Uh, but this is a very young person approach, I suppose. [01:53:40] Um, and I probably take a friend because they’d want to witness it. [01:53:45]

Payman Langroudi: Who? A friend like a friend. A best.

Alicia Willis: Friend? Just a friend.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I like that. [01:53:50]

Alicia Willis: Probably take them because they’d want to also experience that.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Alicia Willis: That’s sweet. And [01:53:55] I wouldn’t want, probably want to go alone.

Payman Langroudi: Like, you can have Albert Einstein. Whatever. You’re taking a friend.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. Because I think [01:54:00] they’d appreciate that.

Payman Langroudi: Perfect, perfect, perfect. Do you like being on your own?

Alicia Willis: No.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:54:05] got that feeling. Have you ever. Do you ever go to, like, a restaurant by yourself? Nope. Why?

Alicia Willis: Because [01:54:10] I. I hate the thought of people going. Oh, my day didn’t turn up.

[TRANSITION]: That’s so [01:54:15] interesting.

Payman Langroudi: We were talking about this on another pod. Yeah. Like, why does it. Why is that?

Alicia Willis: I [01:54:20] don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Know. No, but why is that the fear? Like, okay, you’re in this restaurant by yourself. If I saw [01:54:25] you, that is not what I would think. I think she’s someone working in this town. Yeah, like [01:54:30] it wouldn’t even cross my mind that your date stood you up.

Alicia Willis: Must be a younger person like thing. [01:54:35] I genuinely like my friends at work. Are probably 30 plus. Yeah, [01:54:40] whereas I’m 24. Yeah. And they would go and sit by themselves. Yeah. I’m hoping [01:54:45] I’ll just grow out of it because I’d like to. I’d like to say to myself, like, oh, I’m going to go [01:54:50] to Manchester for the night and go and eat in my favourite restaurant because I can.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Alicia Willis: But [01:54:55] I don’t and I wouldn’t.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. But would you sit on a river [01:55:00] side by yourself.

Alicia Willis: In my town? Yeah, but I wouldn’t drive [01:55:05] somewhere to sit there.

Payman Langroudi: In case someone thought. Is that.

Alicia Willis: Why is she [01:55:10] sat on her own?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Alicia Willis: I don’t know why.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, okay. Okay. Tell me by yourself. At [01:55:15] home? By yourself? Are you good like that? No, no.

Alicia Willis: Only just started to be. But [01:55:20] I don’t know why.

[TRANSITION]: I love being by myself.

Alicia Willis: Yeah, and a lot of people say that. Yeah, [01:55:25] I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. I didn’t think the conversation would go there either, but, um, [01:55:30] it’s been a massive pleasure.

Alicia Willis: Thank you.

[TRANSITION]: For having.

Payman Langroudi: Me. Thanks a lot for being the first nurse on the Dental Leaders [01:55:35] podcast.

Alicia Willis: I’ve enjoyed.

[TRANSITION]: It. Good to see you. Thank you.

[VOICE]: This is Dental [01:55:40] Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [01:55:45] leaders in dentistry. Your hosts [01:55:50] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:55:55] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge [01:56:00] thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and [01:56:05] what our guests has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value [01:56:10] out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend [01:56:15] who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t [01:56:20] forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by Enlightened Smiles. Enlighten is the world’s most [00:00:05] effective teeth whitening treatment. We’ve treated well over half a million patients across 11 countries [00:00:10] now, so if you want to swap unpredictable, underwhelming results with delighted [00:00:15] patients and higher margins enlightened smiles, get yourself trained. Get your team trained. Let’s get to the pod. [00:00:20]

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to go [00:00:30] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:00:40]

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Nyree Whitley onto [00:00:45] the podcast. Nyree is Chief Clinical Officer at my dentist. Um, [00:00:50] formerly I’d been with the business for at least ten years. Yeah, [00:00:55] yeah. Um, the top dentist in the group? I’m [00:01:00] going to get to your backstory and all that, but sometimes I’ve got a burning question. Um, [00:01:05] what? What? What does the what are the misconceptions? [00:01:10] The most prominent ones of corporate dentistry [00:01:15] by the profession?

Nyree Whitley: Undoubtedly, the profession still thinks [00:01:20] that the corporate is run similar to the military. And we tell people what to do and they don’t [00:01:25] recognise that. It’s a collaborative, supportive environment. And that is the biggest misconception [00:01:30] around corporate corporates. And I think not just talking for ourselves, but I think all of the corporates [00:01:35] that now exist in the UK, um, that couldn’t be further from the truth.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:01:40] But you know, from the supplier perspective, for instance. Yeah, yeah. Um, [00:01:45] there are different corporates, right? So, so some of them, they, they absolutely [00:01:50] pride themselves on full clinical freedom. Yeah. And from the supplier perspective, that’s quite hard [00:01:55] for us. Yeah. Yeah. But my dentist isn’t one of those. My, my. My dentist [00:02:00] is actually, from the supplier perspective, much better insomuch as you guys become tactical [00:02:05] about a particular treatment modality or whatever. And then you do get that through [00:02:10] your practices somehow. So you do tell people what to do in some respect, right?

Nyree Whitley: Is that [00:02:15] no, we support them. So we have a look at what is, you know, what are the Leaders where [00:02:20] we have strategic partnerships with people such as yourselves? Yeah. Such as for [00:02:25] example, in the implant world such as Invisalign and Clearcorrect are aligned around aligners. [00:02:30] We go to who we perceive to be and who our clinicians perceive to be the best [00:02:35] in class. We will then work with them to work with our clinicians, to do [00:02:40] the appropriate engagement and training, in order that they understand the products effectively, to be able [00:02:45] to deliver the best care to our patients. But our clinicians still choose [00:02:50] whether they want to actually utilise those materials, those products or not. Uh, [00:02:55] we do have preferred ranges, but we also allow our clinicians [00:03:00] to put in clinical requests for any material that they want and as long as they can [00:03:05] evidence to us why. And is it clinically appropriate then [00:03:10] we would approve that.

Payman Langroudi: You know, when I think about corporate density, I’ve had Mark Allen from [00:03:15] Bupa sitting where you’re sitting right now. And when I think about corporate dentistry, [00:03:20] the sort of tension that I have with it is that a lot [00:03:25] of success in dentistry comes from on the ground, very nuanced [00:03:30] issues that happen within a practice. Um, so [00:03:35] the best approach might be to, you know, let the practice get on with [00:03:40] it and let whoever’s making those decisions within the practice at a regional [00:03:45] level get on with it and make changes without having to, you know, go through the [00:03:50] whole system. But at the same time, when you have a brand like Bupa or [00:03:55] or my dentist. The brand needs to stand for something. Yeah. And so that tension [00:04:00] between what a single practice can do and what anyone, [00:04:05] the whole group can do. Obviously you guys, that’s that’s your whole job, right? Your whole job. How [00:04:10] do you how do you negotiate that sort of tension?

Nyree Whitley: There are some aspects of practices [00:04:15] that would be cookie cutter if you like. And that would be compliance, for example. Yeah. Because [00:04:20] compliance has to be clearly, absolutely spot on regardless of what type of practice, where [00:04:25] it is, which principality it is, whether it provides NHS or private care. So that kind of thing, [00:04:30] yes, we absolutely have our own kind of, you know, my comply, which is how we [00:04:35] help our practice managers to ensure they have all the right regulatory compliance. But there are other [00:04:40] aspects of it where we will absolutely give our practice managers autonomy [00:04:45] to look at the practice and to work with their area development managers. That’s their [00:04:50] operational leader and with their clinical development advisor, which is their is their clinical leader in that area, [00:04:55] to work out what is best for each clinician. A key part of a practice manager’s [00:05:00] job is one to ones with clinicians on a regular basis. And that [00:05:05] is very, very important because no practice is exactly the same, because no individuals [00:05:10] are exactly the same. And it’s really interesting because when we do a every year, [00:05:15] you know, on an annual basis, we do a survey, we do it for our employees, but we [00:05:20] do it for our self employed clinicians as well. Great place to practice. And what they always say [00:05:25] every single year without fail is the most important thing to them in their practice [00:05:30] is the practice manager and the team.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So you are the [00:05:35] top dentist in the group? Yeah. So does that mean you sit on the board? [00:05:40]

Nyree Whitley: I do, I sit on the full board and I sit on the executive board.

Payman Langroudi: So, [00:05:45] you know, obviously every decision they make, they’re going to have to run that through a clinical person. [00:05:50] Right. Correct. So are you having to having to make decisions where you know, you’re [00:05:55] you’re actually torn between what you can do and what you should do and the, [00:06:00] you know, the corporate goals and the clinical goals. Do they sometimes come attention?

Nyree Whitley: They [00:06:05] do because we’re a business, right? And like any independent practice is a business. If it didn’t make money, [00:06:10] it would go bust and it would close down. So we are exactly the same. So there is that tension, [00:06:15] and there is nothing wrong or ugly about making a profit if [00:06:20] it’s done because you’ve provided good quality care to your patients ultimately, [00:06:25] and that is always at the forefront of my mind. Clearly, as a registered practising clinician [00:06:30] and at the whole of my team, if it’s the right thing for our patients and our dentists [00:06:35] and as an output, one of those outputs is that it makes money as well, [00:06:40] then, you know, that’s a good business decision. And whilst you say, you know, am [00:06:45] I the top dentist and I’m making the decisions, clearly I sit at that position. But we very, [00:06:50] very much work as a collaborative team, and that’s collaboratively, not [00:06:55] just me with a whole of my clinical team. I don’t run the business by myself. [00:07:00] My teams run the business and things for me. I help to support them in what they do. But [00:07:05] we are very much work collaboratively with operations. It is literally like a mum and [00:07:10] dad relationship.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I bet, I bet, but so you must have, you know, [00:07:15] you’ve recently had an incoming new CEO.

Nyree Whitley: We have. He was [00:07:20] our existing CFO.

Payman Langroudi: Well that’s right. Yeah. So you must have when new people come in [00:07:25] at senior management level. Yeah. There must be an element of you have to sort of educate [00:07:30] them on dentistry.

Nyree Whitley: It’s a clinical business first and foremost. And that’s what [00:07:35] they need to understand.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly. So so what are the what are the things that some sometimes some some [00:07:40] someone’s asked for. That is clearly from a clinical perspective it just is ridiculous. [00:07:45] But people you know, let’s say the guys run a chain of DIY stores now he’s running my dentist [00:07:50] and they sometimes think it’s just fully transferable. What kind of things have [00:07:55] senior management said to you in the past, over your last ten years? A lot that you’ve had to modulate. [00:08:00]

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, a long time ago. So when I first joined the business, um, I joined [00:08:05] the business through acquisition. I was with a I was the assistant clinical director for a small corporate, [00:08:10] and we were acquired by. Yeah. That’s right. And as it was then, um, and [00:08:15] one of my first experiences of some direct, [00:08:20] not direct is some suggestions that had come down from the private equity house that owned [00:08:25] us at the time. So not our executive board from the private equity house was, why [00:08:30] can’t you get all dentists to take exactly the same time for each procedure? Yeah, [00:08:35] I did just that. Yeah, I did just that. And that’s where it’s a lack of understanding. Yeah, [00:08:40] we did have one suggestion once as well from a private equity house. Buy one, get one free on fillings. Yeah, [00:08:45] I can see where they’re Going with it, but it’s like, oh, [00:08:50] Mrs. Jones, you need a filling. Do you want another one free?

Payman Langroudi: The funny thing, anytime I’ve spoken to a banker or a private [00:08:55] equity person, they say something like, uh, what’s the average number of teeth whitening treatments a [00:09:00] dentist does in a week? And they’ll they’ll throw they’ll throw it out. They’ll say something [00:09:05] like, I don’t know, do they do 3 or 4 a day each? And you have to go back and say, actually, [00:09:10] you know, it’s more like, you know, if you’re lucky, 3 or 4 a month, right?

Nyree Whitley: It depends who comes in your door. [00:09:15] Right? I mean, if you’ve got a load of edentulous patients, because historically that’s the kind of list that you develop, [00:09:20] you were on the ground floor and the only one that could see the elderly ones. You’re really not going to do much whitening in comparison [00:09:25] to your colleague, are you?

Payman Langroudi: What about what about if someone’s asked a question from that position of not knowing [00:09:30] enough about it, and it turned out to be a really good question, you [00:09:35] know, because sometimes we’re so in it that we sort of get used to, you know, why shouldn’t [00:09:40] there be a buy one, get one free for you? You know what I mean? Yeah. Have there been any suggestions [00:09:45] like that? Where, where at first it seemed left field, but actually it turned out to be a brilliant suggestion. [00:09:50]

Nyree Whitley: Probably on my options brand actually, as was, which [00:09:55] is that affordable?

Payman Langroudi: I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. What an amateur.

Nyree Whitley: It [00:10:00] wasn’t me.

Payman Langroudi: Go ahead. Um. Which [00:10:05] options? Which is what are affordable?

Nyree Whitley: Kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Affordable? Private.

Nyree Whitley: Affordable dentistry. Yeah. Affordable. Private. [00:10:10] So we effectively have a good, better, best options [00:10:15] within the business. So you know we have the NHS, we have my options [00:10:20] which are affordable. And then we have more premium private if you like, which is more of those aesthetic [00:10:25] type products. Um, so when they first suggested bringing that in, [00:10:30] it was something where we kind of went, oh, how does that work, you know, as a clinical team. [00:10:35] But actually, you know, it was a fantastic offering for our patients and actually for our clinicians [00:10:40] because it’s transparent pricing for the patients. It’s transparent for the clinicians [00:10:45] as well. A lot of clinicians, particularly less experienced clinicians, [00:10:50] really struggle around the financial conversations with patients, and they don’t always feel [00:10:55] confident in terms of their ability to deliver private dentistry. So [00:11:00] that kind of gives them that area where they feel a safe space, because there is a transparent price [00:11:05] list and they feel as though, you know, the charges are not, um, [00:11:10] very expensive in comparison to the NHS. So it really [00:11:15] does help them get on the ladder with regard to delivering private treatment.

Payman Langroudi: But what was it about the suggestion [00:11:20] initially that sounded like it wasn’t a good idea? The fact that the three tiers instead of.

Nyree Whitley: Three tiers might confuse [00:11:25] people, how patients can understand it, how dentists can understand it. It’s a fixed [00:11:30] pricing scheme and they’re self-employed, right clinicians so they can choose what they [00:11:35] wish to charge. Effectively. Yeah. But we have to say from because as [00:11:40] you well know, as a clinician, there are some scenarios where, you know, a D.O. is not a D.O. in Deo in all patients. Is it? [00:11:45] Can take you a different amount of time and different complexity. Um, so they do still have [00:11:50] that latitude, but we just wondered how they would understand having three [00:11:55] tiers of, you know, offerings to give patients. But it was, uh, unanimously, [00:12:00] positively accepted by our clinicians and is still we don’t always refer it as to [00:12:05] my options, necessarily in the same way now, but it’s our affordable private offering to patients, and both [00:12:10] patients and clinicians really like it.

Payman Langroudi: And is it like an escalator that they [00:12:15] go NHS options and then fully private.

Nyree Whitley: It’s different. I mean points of [00:12:20] entry for patients is usually as an NHS patient or often as a my options [00:12:25] patient if they’re not currently taking on any NHS patients because they don’t have any UDA, you [00:12:30] know, availability and they then move within the tiers. So an NHS [00:12:35] patient can have a my options filling or they can have a full private filling if they wish. And similarly my [00:12:40] options, whilst they wouldn’t backtrack to go on to the NHS unless they said I want to go [00:12:45] on your NHS waiting list effectively, but they can often upgrade to elements of [00:12:50] private treatment.

Payman Langroudi: How does that conversation go with the patient? We’ve got this D.O. [00:12:55] to do.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He’s an NHS patient. What what option does [00:13:00] he got? Like what? How do you how do they differentiate between the three different options for that filling. [00:13:05]

Nyree Whitley: They will differentiate on the basis of clinical need its wants and needs. So [00:13:10] it’s around clinical need. And it’s like but you may wish to consider these other alternatives that are not [00:13:15] clinically necessary, but you may wish to upgrade in terms of the aesthetics. For [00:13:20] example, you know, like a fully layered composite with staining for a molar as a full private, maybe [00:13:25] it would still be an amalgam that was the most clinically appropriate material currently, while we’re still [00:13:30] allowed to utilise it in a molar tooth. Or it may well be that, you know, some kind [00:13:35] of composite or inlay or inlay may be a, you know, a more options alternative [00:13:40] each. It’s difficult to put it into single words because obviously each scenario is different. That [00:13:45] is challenging, I think, for clinicians at all times when you’re seeing an NHS patient. So [00:13:50] forget the middle tier. It’s difficult anyway, isn’t it? Particularly when they get told, you know, they’ll [00:13:55] call up the NHS, BSA and somebody on the end of the line will tell them you can have everything on the NHS. [00:14:00] And then they go into practice and that’s their expectation. That’s a challenging conversation.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:14:05] you must have more NHS patients than anyone else [00:14:10] right.

Nyree Whitley: 4 million patients, 8 million appointments a year.

Payman Langroudi: 4 million patients. [00:14:15] Wow. That’s extraordinary. Because is it still true that [00:14:20] half the population doesn’t have a dentist?

Nyree Whitley: Approximately. Yeah. I mean, MPP has made [00:14:25] for us. I know there’s been a lot of conversations around MPP, and at the moment, everything is [00:14:30] still up in the air with regard to whether the new government will renew it, because it is due to finish at the end of March. [00:14:35] So if there’s no decision, it just ends. Certainly for us as a business, It’s [00:14:40] made a big difference in terms of our clinicians willingness to take on new patients, because there [00:14:45] were those additional financial. Let’s be honest, um, um, contributions [00:14:50] made to them. So we’ve seen a significant uptick in our clinicians [00:14:55] willingness to take on new patients. And a big thing that we talk to our [00:15:00] clinicians about is a patient to patient. You know, when you and I qualified, [00:15:05] I didn’t qualify as an NHS dentist. I qualified as a dentist. Being able to provide all aspects of care, [00:15:10] unless it was a specialised area that you needed to do further training in. And a patient is the same. So [00:15:15] actually it doesn’t matter what their point of entry is, you absolutely [00:15:20] have to and should give them all possible options, and then it’s the patient’s prerogative [00:15:25] to decide as long as something is clinically appropriate for them, which one of those options [00:15:30] that they take. And I think too many clinicians are ingrained in the [00:15:35] old mindset of, you know, an NHS patient is different. I still think in the UK [00:15:40] a lot of patients expect their point of entry to be NHS. Once they’ve had [00:15:45] that NHS point of entry, they’re really happy to consider all appropriate options that are then available [00:15:50] to them. But they want to be an NHS patient.

Payman Langroudi: But I [00:15:55] mean 4 million. Yeah. If let’s imagine half the population don’t have a dentist. [00:16:00] That’s I mean, it’s extraordinary. It’s one [00:16:05] in 8 or 9 NHS patients is a mydentist [00:16:10] patient.

Nyree Whitley: Very possibly some of those. A proportion of those will be private only. But it’s [00:16:15] a very small proportion, you know comparatively.

Payman Langroudi: Do you have I mean you must have numbers regarding overall [00:16:20] the corporates, what percentage of the market are corporate.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, we’re about 6%. [00:16:25]

Payman Langroudi: All corporates. Aha. And so in a way you guys, [00:16:30] the corporates in general are setting the agenda in NHS.

Nyree Whitley: So [00:16:35] we are 6% dentists. Dentist 6%, 6% of NHS contracts.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So. So [00:16:40] if you put them all together, maybe ten, 15, 15 is corporate. So so setting [00:16:45] the agenda regarding the NHS. And so when you see the decline of the [00:16:50] NHS, are you sort of all of you scrambling to do more private [00:16:55] now. Like all associates are scrambling to do more private. Or are you hopeful [00:17:00] for the NHS to continue and for you to be able to thrive as a business? [00:17:05]

Nyree Whitley: We are. Our revenue now in the business is 5050 private [00:17:10] NHS that’s revenue. Yeah. Um, my personal feeling [00:17:15] and that of certainly all of the clinical team and, and of the business is that I [00:17:20] think that every single person in the UK should have access to NHS dental [00:17:25] care for at least urgent and immediate needs. I don’t think anybody should [00:17:30] be left in pain. I think that’s appalling that people can’t get treatment. And on that [00:17:35] basis we are. I think the NHS still provides a great level of service for patients. [00:17:40] And so we still very much believe in the NHS and we are that [00:17:45] 5050 split is a good split for us. We wouldn’t really look to [00:17:50] move out any more NHS to replace.

Payman Langroudi: How is that reflected in the sort of the time people [00:17:55] spend? Is it 80% of NHS, 20% private.

Nyree Whitley: About 70, 30.

Payman Langroudi: 70, [00:18:00] 30.

Nyree Whitley: And it depends on clinicians. You know, clinicians experience with regard [00:18:05] to how much you know, how much private they will do. And clearly we have some specialist implant [00:18:10] surgeons who are 100% private. So.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. And as [00:18:15] far as sort of the org chart goes.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you said you go [00:18:20] you’re in all the board meetings, the big board meetings, but in your particular team. [00:18:25] So your particular team is the clinical kind of team. Yeah. How many people are there between [00:18:30] you and the associate working in the practice.

Nyree Whitley: Okay, [00:18:35] so as far as the clinical team is concerned, because I look after some other areas of the business, but let’s just [00:18:40] talk clinical. So I have clinical directors and I have four [00:18:45] regional and one orthodontic clinical director. Okay. I then have [00:18:50] a central clinical director who doesn’t deal, who deals more with projects and things centrally. [00:18:55] So let’s just talk about on the in the field teams. There are five of them. They have [00:19:00] areas within their regions. And for each area they have what’s called [00:19:05] a clinical development advisor, who is a practising clinician that’s working in our business. And [00:19:10] they work anything between 1 and 3 days in the business supporting our clinicians and [00:19:15] they week per week, and they integrate.

Payman Langroudi: The clinical directors aren’t working as [00:19:20] dentists in the business, are they? As well.

Nyree Whitley: But not all of them are. But most [00:19:25] of them do a degree of clinical work still. But our Cdas are doing usually [00:19:30] at least 2 or 3 days of clinical work still.

Payman Langroudi: And then the next level is the associate. Yeah. And [00:19:35] then how how do you when, when an associate has an issue. Yeah. How does [00:19:40] he go to your clinical team or does he go to the manage management team. Like I guess his [00:19:45] first port of call is his practice manager.

Nyree Whitley: Manager would be the first port of call, but not if it was around a clinical [00:19:50] issue. So our Cdas clinical development advisors, they know all of their clinicians [00:19:55] in their area. They’re really important relationships. So they have their telephone numbers. They have [00:20:00] regular WhatsApp groups webinars and things that they have with them. So [00:20:05] if it’s anything clinically related or if it’s something operational [00:20:10] that they don’t feel happy with the way that the practice manager has dealt with it, then they [00:20:15] will contact their clinical development advisor.

Payman Langroudi: If I if I dropped [00:20:20] 10 million, £10 million. Yeah. Extra cash. Yeah. Into the business [00:20:25] and said you had to spend it. Yeah. What would you spend it on?

Nyree Whitley: More clinical development advisors. [00:20:30]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. And it’s something that we are currently [00:20:35] looking at. We’re reviewing. We have about 45 of them in the business at the moment, and that equates [00:20:40] to about 72 days. Um, but we have 3500 clinicians.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:20:45] 5000.

Nyree Whitley: Clinicians.

Payman Langroudi: That include hygienists as [00:20:50] well.

Nyree Whitley: Dentists, dentists, 3500 dentists between [00:20:55] 32 and 35. It fluctuates. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. It’s a lot. That’s a lot [00:21:00] of humans, isn’t it? That’s a.

Nyree Whitley: Lot.

Payman Langroudi: Of humans. Dentists are very difficult to manage.

Nyree Whitley: No. Well, we’re used to making [00:21:05] all our own decisions. That’s what we’re taught to do in dental school, you know? We are. Hopefully [00:21:10] most of us are relatively intelligent by virtue of being able to get into dental school. [00:21:15] Maybe not. We’ve got common sense, but relatively intelligent. Um, so that’s why it’s a [00:21:20] relationship. And of course, remember, there is that piece of probably 97% [00:21:25] of ours are self-employed as well. We have a few employed employ clinicians. [00:21:30] But, you know, not many.

Payman Langroudi: But that must be something. You have to train outsiders on the idea that [00:21:35] dentists are difficult to manage. And both you’re right, the self-employed nature [00:21:40] of it causes many issues in itself.

Nyree Whitley: Even recruitment of them. Right. So [00:21:45] recruiting a clinician is like recruiting, you know, a senior level managerial [00:21:50] person into another business. So even that is, um, has its challenges. [00:21:55] And we, you know, the clinical team because of that are involved at a super, super [00:22:00] early stage. So people will make contact with the business or we will, you know, contact people. And then [00:22:05] one of the first things that happens is a clinical call. So it’s an hour call with one of my cdas for [00:22:10] the area that the clinician wants to work in. And they talk through their clinical experience. [00:22:15] Uh, we do a degree of, I guess, testing their clinical knowledge to make sure that [00:22:20] we are confident that they will be safe. Things like, you know, warfarin type questions, the kind of things that you [00:22:25] would be horrified by if people didn’t understand or know. Um, we will then often direct them [00:22:30] maybe to appropriate training if they don’t quite, um, answer those questions appropriately. [00:22:35] But what we are talking to them about at that level is, you know, this is what we offer. This is [00:22:40] all of the career, you know, training that we can give you. This is where you can go within the business. What is [00:22:45] it that you’re interested in doing? And things as well. So it’s very much about recognising that they are [00:22:50] self-employed individuals whose career is dependent upon what age they were, would can take any number [00:22:55] of different directions, and that we can support them regardless whether that’s [00:23:00] to go to become a doozy, to become a specialist, just to get more experience, or whether [00:23:05] they do want to go into, you know, the academic side of things, become part of our academy [00:23:10] or become part of our support team.

Payman Langroudi: And do you see your customer as your [00:23:15] dentist? Um, as a as a business?

Nyree Whitley: They absolutely are. Yeah. They pay us [00:23:20] 50% their licence fee and lots of circumstances. So they’re our customer.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:23:25] that’s the main difference I see But with my dentist compared to Ida of old, [00:23:30] is that the clinicians are a lot happier than they used to be. [00:23:35] And I was really surprised maybe 3 or 4 years ago was the first time I heard [00:23:40] someone was choosing to move from an independent to a corporate. I talk [00:23:45] to my dentist, and, you know, I see a lot of your your clinicians on our composite calls. And [00:23:50] and I was I was asking, wow, you actually chose to go to my dentist. It’s crazy. No one chooses [00:23:55] to go there. Um, and and she said something really interesting. She said, you know what you’re going to get, [00:24:00] which is super interesting because you never know what you’re going to get. [00:24:05] Um, at the same time, you don’t you never know what kind of manager you’re going to get. Right. Yeah. But you [00:24:10] never know exactly what’s going to happen. And there are certain minimums that you’re going to get in a corporate that [00:24:15] you’re not going to get in an independent. Mhm. Um, but you know, it’s, it’s a whole job [00:24:20] isn’t it, to keep dentists happy. Um, and recruitment is now easier [00:24:25] or not.

Nyree Whitley: Recruitment’s. Still tough. Still tough. It’s still tough. Very.

Payman Langroudi: What tactics [00:24:30] are you using to try and find dentists? Are you looking abroad?

Nyree Whitley: We are looking abroad because there just [00:24:35] aren’t enough clinicians, as you know, within the UK, to service the population and to fill vacancies. [00:24:40] We then have the issue of um, ah, what we call sheep and seagulls [00:24:45] position. So kind of, you know, very countryside where everybody wants to work in London. You know, [00:24:50] there aren’t there’s already I mean interestingly, we look yesterday, we look at some of the pricing around new [00:24:55] patient examinations across the country. The cheapest is in London because yeah, [00:25:00] by significant amount. It’s just because it’s easier to get an appointment because there are more dentists and [00:25:05] things here. But um, yeah. So we’ve had to look overseas because of that. We have [00:25:10] two areas that we look at. So one is E so Europe, predominantly English [00:25:15] speaking dental schools. We have some that we work with and collaborate with [00:25:20] more than others because over trial and error in a period of time, you know, we’ve come to recognise [00:25:25] that some of the undergraduate training that they have in some universities is more comprehensive [00:25:30] and more akin to that, that they would have in the UK than others. Some for example, radiographs [00:25:35] aren’t covered, you know, as part of their undergraduate degree. That’s an issue. Some don’t understand [00:25:40] the medical side of things at all.

Payman Langroudi: And what are some of the standout ones? [00:25:45]

Nyree Whitley: Cyprus is amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really.

Nyree Whitley: Is amazing.

Payman Langroudi: An amazing high quality teaching. [00:25:50]

Nyree Whitley: Super high quality teaching. Good people. Great graduates. Great approach. [00:25:55] Behaviourally. You know, the clinicians are very similar to those, you know, to to the values and [00:26:00] things that we would have over in the UK. Because sometimes that’s difficult, you know, because you can [00:26:05] have culturally they will be different. It’s the old dentist tells you, not collaborates [00:26:10] with you. And that’s not how it works anymore in the UK. So we’ve come to understand [00:26:15] those dental schools that are better.

Payman Langroudi: Any other standout ones?

Nyree Whitley: Um, there are some of the Spanish [00:26:20] ones are good. Portuguese are very good.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Yeah. Mhm. But when you say Spanish I mean is [00:26:25] there, is there one specific one that you go to as an Valencia’s good. Mhm. [00:26:30] That’s that’s an interesting isn’t it. Yeah. It’s so interesting. So then you go there and and [00:26:35] what do a little presentation for the final years. Is that how you do it.

Nyree Whitley: We do. Oh we actually try and engage them [00:26:40] at a much earlier point. So we talk to them. There are a lot of British nationals [00:26:45] who now go out there because they can’t get into Dental schools in the UK. Yeah. They [00:26:50] are, I guess, a more captive audience and they often want to come back home afterwards. So we talk to [00:26:55] them about what we can offer them as a business and the support that we can give them in terms of [00:27:00] their career and the support that we can give them with mentors. We have [00:27:05] over 370 clinicians trained as mentors now in our business. Um, [00:27:10] so we can offer people either it may well be a formal mentoring scheme where they have conditions [00:27:15] via the NHS, or it may be an informal mentoring scheme where [00:27:20] if they come and come and work privately initially. I mean, it’s crazy, isn’t it right that people can start [00:27:25] doing private work before NHS? But what we will do is often give them a [00:27:30] three month period of working with a mentor just for their own safety and confidence, and for us [00:27:35] to be honest, as a business as well.

Payman Langroudi: What does that entail? When you say working with a mentor?

Nyree Whitley: Okay, so the mentors will [00:27:40] be in their practice.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really.

Nyree Whitley: Mhm. And they will have protected time that they [00:27:45] spend with them every week. They also have that open door policy of, you know, being able to ask [00:27:50] them for any support that they need. And then clearly if and when it’s a formal [00:27:55] mentored scheme, they go through the whole portfolio of evidence piece and things with them and help them through all of that. [00:28:00] Um, we’ve been really successful in getting realistic periods [00:28:05] of time down to about 3 to 6 months for kind of ircp bits for people who [00:28:10] come over as experienced clinicians. Anyway, used to be 12 months sometimes for people. Um, [00:28:15] we have what we call a PDC so professional development course. So [00:28:20] that is if we have inexperienced clinicians. So of course they don’t have to do when [00:28:25] they come over as E.R. graduates, um.

Payman Langroudi: Show them the ropes of the rules and regulations. [00:28:30]

Nyree Whitley: And we do ten days with them phantom head, uh, in our academy, uh, with external [00:28:35] tutors, uh, specialists in various different areas, such as, you know, restorative, [00:28:40] perio, behavioural bits and pieces that we go through with them. It gives [00:28:45] us an opportunity, again, to make sure that it is safe for our patients and safe [00:28:50] for them, because ultimately we want safe patient care and good quality care. But it’s also helpful to their mentors, [00:28:55] them, because we can outline with them which areas they may need more support in than others. [00:29:00] And actually, we can also offer them things like some our practices have lead clinicians [00:29:05] in. So they’re not specifically mentors, but they are overarching clinicians [00:29:10] who are more senior in in their practice and who are happy to support the practice manager [00:29:15] with regard to look after clinicians. So it’s really about discussing all Discussing all of those offerings [00:29:20] with them. Part of it will be financial offerings, but everybody’s got very similar financial offerings these [00:29:25] days.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s a business model. Yeah, the corporate model, the [00:29:30] there’s look, there’s a whole lot of extra people, right. Yeah. There’s [00:29:35] you and your whole team. I’m sure there’s a whole lot of compliance people, a whole lot of management, a whole [00:29:40] lot of extra people have to be paid. Yeah. Where does that money come from? Okay, I [00:29:45] get it right. Economies of scale. Yeah.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, it’s a lot of it.

Payman Langroudi: Which is [00:29:50] that it? I mean, because because I get it. You could. Buying 600 of [00:29:55] anything is is easier than buying one of it. Yeah. And you can get a better deal and all that [00:30:00] I’ve noticed going around to see some of your clinicians that you’ve got these super centres. [00:30:05]

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. And they’re amazing.

Payman Langroudi: And I guess is there, is there an element [00:30:10] of you guys buy 3 or 4 practices in the same town, close them all and then open the super [00:30:15] centre. Is that is that an that an economies of scale thing? Is it cheaper to run a supercenter than four separate? [00:30:20]

Nyree Whitley: There is, but it’s not really about it just being cheaper. So that very much is our growth [00:30:25] trajectory. So we have we have bolt ons, which is very simply [00:30:30] adding more surgeries where you’ve got space in the building to make a practice bigger. That’s really simple. That’s [00:30:35] an easy ROI because it’s not a huge cost. But then we have our [00:30:40] kind of merge and relocate. So that is often where we will [00:30:45] either take. Traditional dentistry was done in terraced houses. That [00:30:50] is not great. Usually for access to be DDA compliant, for patients to park, the shape of the surgeries, [00:30:55] staff rooms, even, and things. You know, for people it’s a nightmare. So we [00:31:00] will take one practice if necessary and move it into often on the high street, [00:31:05] which is a better location or a retail park is one of our favourite things to make it bigger or [00:31:10] merge a couple of practices and do that. So we often will merge two four surgery practices [00:31:15] and turn it into a 16 surgery practice over a period of years. So we might start at ten [00:31:20] and then go to 12. You know, as we get the demand from clinicians that want to come and work [00:31:25] there, and as we get more patients through the door, and actually they have become [00:31:30] almost mini hospitals because we have we [00:31:35] have PhDs in them, we have mentees, we have mentors, we have experienced clinicians. [00:31:40] We will have doozies. We will have implant surgeons, specialists, endo specialists, hygienist, [00:31:45] therapists. They have dedicated their surgeries are genuinely [00:31:50] are kind of, you know, state of the art beautiful big cabinet tree scanners. [00:31:55] We’ve got TCO, uh, you know, we have separate rooms to talk to. The patients in [00:32:00] the staff rooms are, I mean, people’s faces when they see them, when they’ve kind [00:32:05] of just had this tiny little staff places.

Payman Langroudi: People want to work.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. Exactly that. So that [00:32:10] also makes want people to come and work for us because actually to actually to have loads of [00:32:15] colleagues. It’s tough being a dentist, right? It’s very insular. And if you don’t see your staff [00:32:20] room is a great place for people just to get to know the other people they’re working with and to offload and talk [00:32:25] about things that may have happened during the day, to be able to go and grab somebody, to help you to discuss [00:32:30] the case if you need it. So actually in these centres, they [00:32:35] are kind of they’re looking after one another there. And it’s just been it’s been amazing [00:32:40] the difference. And the other thing that we’re now starting to do is what we call brownfields. [00:32:45] So that is where the old way of acquiring practices and trying [00:32:50] to bring them into groups didn’t work. We’ve all done it. We bought for EBITDA. It’s bloody difficult [00:32:55] to get them and to change their ways of working. What we now do is to look for practices [00:33:00] that have the potential to grow, that have good base NHS contracts, because [00:33:05] this is the other really important piece. We keep our NHS contracts, but rather than it being delivered [00:33:10] by four dentists, we spread it between eight. So they’re able to keep [00:33:15] an element of NHS treatment, but they can also do their private work. But we can still service the [00:33:20] NHS patients of that population because we’ve got more people. People don’t deliver 5 [00:33:25] or 6000 udas anymore as they used to. They do three, something like that. Yeah. [00:33:30] Um, and that has worked really well. So with the brownfield, we buy somewhere [00:33:35] and we will then move it into a retail location and [00:33:40] or move it and merge it with one of our other practices. And we’re about to [00:33:45] launch one in Chesterfield in the next couple of weeks in February.

Payman Langroudi: A lot of practices [00:33:50] that have more than ten chairs. Right. How many are we talking of? Those are the guesstimate. [00:33:55]

Nyree Whitley: As a guesstimate. We’ve probably now got about 40 or [00:34:00] 50 something like that, because what we’re doing is so people look and they’ll go, oh, my dentist [00:34:05] is, you know, doesn’t have as many practices as it used to have. No, we don’t, but we’ve got more surgeries.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:34:10] I bet, I bet. So what are some of the downsides of these giant places?

Nyree Whitley: They [00:34:15] are mini businesses in themselves. So Halifax is [00:34:20] one of our really big.

Payman Langroudi: Ones for its little town. It’s the biggest shop [00:34:25] in the whole town.

Nyree Whitley: Exactly. We’ve got 35 clinicians that work there. Yeah. So for a practice [00:34:30] manager to deal with that many nurses, with that many clinicians, [00:34:35] with that many different treatments, that many patients coming through the door, that [00:34:40] was really challenging. And that was one of the most difficult things. We had a really good practice manager [00:34:45] and we moved them to something like that and they failed. And it was our fault. [00:34:50] They failed because it was too much. It was too much. And we maybe didn’t give them initially when we first [00:34:55] started doing these as much support, because these are multi-million pound businesses in themselves. [00:35:00]

Payman Langroudi: Open seven days a week. Long hours. Yeah yeah, yeah. Really difficult. [00:35:05] Really difficult. And yet you keep doing it because it makes sense.

Nyree Whitley: It makes total [00:35:10] sense. Clinicians love them. And there is you know, we don’t have a [00:35:15] business if we don’t have any dentists.

Payman Langroudi: And I guess from the sort of let’s call [00:35:20] it property developers.

Nyree Whitley: Love them, actually. Patients go, is this a private practice now? And it’s like, no [00:35:25] it’s not. It’s a mixed.

Payman Langroudi: Bag from the property development kind of idea. It really makes a lot of sense [00:35:30] because you get sites that have got potential for growth. And you can [00:35:35] you’re so right about the the Victorian houses though, a number of those [00:35:40] that I’ve been in and they’re creaky, they’re impossible to keep properly clean. [00:35:45] You know, it’s so difficult to even if you keep even if they’re super clean, they don’t look clean. No they [00:35:50] don’t. They give the feeling of of a clinical environment.

Nyree Whitley: And we we do have some [00:35:55] of our practices that if I went to visit it as a clinician, you know, they can be I don’t know, maybe [00:36:00] above a takeaway or something like that, or in these old houses you would go and visit it and you would go, yeah, [00:36:05] I’m not working there. It’s nothing other than about the visual that you that you see.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:36:10] I think we underestimate sometimes when we’ve been in it for a while. We underestimate the sort of hopes [00:36:15] and dreams of a young dentist. Often is just to have nice stuff. [00:36:20] Nice room. Clean. Yeah. Nice clean room with. With the right equipment. [00:36:25] Yeah. For a young dentist, that’s really, you know, an important thing sometimes. Yeah. [00:36:30]

Nyree Whitley: It is.

Payman Langroudi: I like that.

Nyree Whitley: But I like that the young dentists as well are working in this [00:36:35] environment with multiple clinicians because we do have and, [00:36:40] you know, you will have heard in terms of litigation type cases, unfortunately some young [00:36:45] clinicians I get it. You know, it’s social media. It’s everything else. It’s [00:36:50] sexy dentistry. They want to run before they can walk. And they’re getting themselves into trouble [00:36:55] because they are starting to do too much complex dentistry before they can even diagnose appropriately. [00:37:00] Um, and I think by being in these big clinics with lots of older [00:37:05] colleagues, they get a lot of lot of very wise advice and support with regards [00:37:10] to their career, and they’re excited about what they can become because they see what these guys do. And as a referral [00:37:15] base, that’s why clinicians like to come and work there as well, because you’ve got if you’ve got 15, 20 [00:37:20] surgeries, certified clinicians and how many patients you’ve got as a referral base, you don’t even need [00:37:25] so many external referrals. Yeah. So they love it for that reason as well.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think things have changed in our [00:37:30] day? We I remember the first time I cut six veneers.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I had [00:37:35] no idea really what I was doing. Mhm. Um, but in, in that day [00:37:40] and age there wasn’t the litigious situation that we have today. And [00:37:45] so would you say for, for a young clinician now it’s harder to [00:37:50] learn because you have to cover yourself at every point. Whereas a lot of dentistry [00:37:55] you learn by just doing. Yeah. And I mean a lot of mistakes are made that way too. [00:38:00] But that’s experience.

Nyree Whitley: That’s right. That is experience. You don’t just wake up one day and you’re an experienced [00:38:05] clinician. Right. Or experienced anything you have to learn along the way. So it [00:38:10] is more challenging. Um, they are you know, we will have some [00:38:15] of our younger clinicians. We have a number of PhDs in the business. Some of them will take 15, 20 minutes to write the [00:38:20] notes for one patient.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Nyree Whitley: And the amount they write is crazy.

Payman Langroudi: It’s about. [00:38:25]

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, it’s about getting the balance right, you know. But you’re right. You can do [00:38:30] all the courses in the world. It’s still not the same on an actual patient. Yeah. [00:38:35]

Payman Langroudi: And at any one time, 3500 dentists at any one time, you’ve got many GDC [00:38:40] cases, complaints. Yeah. Ten birthdays a [00:38:45] day. You know what I mean? Like so many different scenarios. Yeah. Have you now you’ve [00:38:50] got more experience than most on this. Can you sort of distil what [00:38:55] is a good dentist or a good, you know, associate. Yeah. And [00:39:00] who isn’t. And how quickly can you tell?

Nyree Whitley: We can usually tell pretty [00:39:05] much after our our clinical call.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. Because a lot of being a good clinician [00:39:10] is around communication and behavioural attitude.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Nyree Whitley: Because you can train [00:39:15] people and teach people if they are prepared to listen and if they have the right kind of communication [00:39:20] skills. We all know, you know, in the olden days where you [00:39:25] had you took over lists from other clinicians and maybe you took over some patients [00:39:30] who maybe hadn’t been looked after in the best of ways by their dentist, but they thought [00:39:35] this was amazing. Yeah, because they loved them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Nyree Whitley: And I’m not saying that’s the right thing, but, [00:39:40] you know, I think you can. You have the odd person who you go, oh, [00:39:45] you’re really not going to make it clinically. You know, your hands really can’t do things on patients, [00:39:50] but that is few and far between. Most people can be trained, [00:39:55] you know, to be a competent clinician. And they should have got so far in dental school. But [00:40:00] I mean, it’s not it’s terrible to say no. In my day. But it was [00:40:05] in my day. Um, you know, we had a green book, we had tickets, we had to do X amount of things and then [00:40:10] have an exam on that procedure before you’re allowed to progress on. It’s not [00:40:15] the current students fault that they do that in a different way, but they definitely [00:40:20] don’t get the same amount of exposure to clinical work that we used to. And I feel for them in that [00:40:25] regard. It’s difficult to come out, you know, without having some of them have never completed [00:40:30] a root canal.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. But what would you say they’re better at [00:40:35] than me and you. Because the [00:40:40] time me and you spent doing that root canal. Yeah, they were doing something else.

Nyree Whitley: I [00:40:45] don’t they don’t do business, so they don’t do that side of it. Yeah, maybe they do more [00:40:50] psychology or whatever else. Maybe they do more about the actual, [00:40:55] um, theory behind it rather than the doing. [00:41:00] Um, I don’t honestly know.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s just talking on [00:41:05] a society level. Yeah. So it’s very in fashion now to talk about Wokeism and all of that. [00:41:10] Yeah. But but I and I don’t like it. I don’t like wokeism. I don’t like political correctness. [00:41:15] I don’t like some of those. I think we all know what I mean by that. Yeah. [00:41:20] But I do think that might be the ugly underbelly. Yeah. [00:41:25] Of something quite valuable. Yeah. And what’s quite valuable about it is you’ve got 17 year [00:41:30] old child, you know, I’ve got 17 year old. A 13 year old. Yeah. That generation [00:41:35] is totally not racist. Non sexist bullying [00:41:40] is really frowned on with that generation. Things are nowadays, [00:41:45] you know like a bit of sexism and racism in our day would be something you’d completely [00:41:50] expect.

Nyree Whitley: But the other side of it is that I have a friend [00:41:55] who teaches in a mental hospital where they have told me where [00:42:00] they have undergraduates that have been undergraduates for six or 7 or 8 years, [00:42:05] because they cannot stop them from carrying on and trying to pass. [00:42:10] Um, but who have also said to them they’ve had procedures [00:42:15] where they’ve had, for example, oroantral fistula, and they’ve said to [00:42:20] them, oh, we have an oaf here. Do you want to come and assist with this? Because that will be really good experience. [00:42:25] No, I don’t feel like doing that today. And you can’t make them.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:42:30] we’re getting back to the sort of the downside of that generation, right. So yeah you’re [00:42:35] talking about entitlement.

Nyree Whitley: And so that’s why I don’t know in dental school how many days now they spend going, no, [00:42:40] I don’t feel like seeing patients today. I don’t know. I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: You know, when [00:42:45] I talk to teachers of that generation, that’s not what I.

Nyree Whitley: Hear.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:42:50] isn’t. I mean, there may be the odd occasion where something like that happens, and it may be that, [00:42:55] uh, you know, me and you are looking out for that. Yeah, I.

Nyree Whitley: Know.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but, you [00:43:00] know, of course, a teacher of that generation has to, you know, be proud of what he’s teaching. Right? So there’s [00:43:05] that sort of cognitive dissonance as well. Yeah. Um, but my point on, you know, my [00:43:10] societal point is that there are things about this generation which are very valuable. Yeah. [00:43:15] There are. So what can we say about the current Dental generation that is valuable, for [00:43:20] instance, from my perspective? Now, I don’t own a gigantic 600 practice business. Yeah. From my perspective, [00:43:25] the fact that dentists, young dentists say things like, I want to work three days a week [00:43:30] and don’t feel bad about that, or, you know, even even [00:43:35] kind of what you alluded to. They say, I want to do cosmetic only dentistry. I don’t want [00:43:40] to do bread and butter. A lot of people really hate this. And they say, well, you know, in our day, we [00:43:45] used to work 5 or 6 days a week. We used to do everything. You know, people used to go [00:43:50] on the NHS. But I think actually that’s that’s an evolution that’s welcome in that. [00:43:55] Why should we do something we something we don’t want to do.

Nyree Whitley: I would rather have [00:44:00] more clinicians required to deliver the services who [00:44:05] are happy, and less clinicians who are stressed. We know that historically, [00:44:10] suicide rates and things in dentistry was high, stress levels was high. Even things like back problems [00:44:15] and neck problems because the amount of clinical work that they did. I’m really happy for people [00:44:20] to do three days a week, you know, and to get a work life balance, because I love work. [00:44:25] I work a lot. It just motivates me. Not everybody. Yeah, exactly. [00:44:30] It’s who I am. But it’s not. Everybody is like that. I want people to [00:44:35] have a happy life. And if that balance is three days work, and the rest [00:44:40] of the week they do whatever it is, whether that’s a different type of work or whether that’s just spending time [00:44:45] with themselves in nature, with their family, whatever. That’s [00:44:50] great.

Payman Langroudi: Your interest is that they’re happy.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Mine two, mine two tears. [00:44:55] Um, but it’s nice. What I’m saying is, it’s nice that now to be happy. You can do that.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. And you don’t have [00:45:00] to feel guilty about doing that. Yeah. Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. When you think along [00:45:05] your journey. Yeah. And you very kind [00:45:10] of early on in your journey started to go down the corporate path. [00:45:15] Is that right. Like how many years in did you go to Denticare.

Nyree Whitley: Denticare was. [00:45:20] I’d been qualified for about 12, 15 years. But quite soon in my journey, I started [00:45:25] to go down the non-clinical route. So I liked clinical work, you know, I [00:45:30] qualified as a dentist, I did.

Payman Langroudi: Guys.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. In. Guys. Yeah. Best [00:45:35] dental school in the world.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Nyree Whitley: Tell them guys.

[TRANSITION]: It was.

Payman Langroudi: Just. [00:45:40] Let’s just call it kings from now to. Just to piss you off a little bit.

Nyree Whitley: You can’t [00:45:45] see it because the shard.

[TRANSITION]: Just disappeared.

Nyree Whitley: Now. Um, but [00:45:50] it. So I qualified, and I did house officer post Show posts. [00:45:55]

Payman Langroudi: Part of.

Nyree Whitley: Surgery? Yeah. Oral surgery. I did a bit of paediatrics. Yeah, exactly. Because I kind of [00:46:00] thought, oh, that’s the one thing I’m not sure if I’d be confident doing when I went to practice. Is any extraction that comes around [00:46:05] the corner.

Payman Langroudi: Were you top of your class, like in the top half of your class? Were you.

Nyree Whitley: Were you? Yeah. Because you had to be in order [00:46:10] to get a house officer post. Was I studious? No, I was a good balance.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:46:15] was that place?

Nyree Whitley: I played rugby.

Payman Langroudi: In the spit the whole.

Nyree Whitley: Time. Yeah, I played rugby for guy’s Ladies. [00:46:20]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Yeah. Really? Really? Really. Okay. So you had a great time? Yeah. Rugby rules in guys or rules [00:46:25] back then? I don’t know.

Nyree Whitley: I think it’s still fairly strong. Is it? Yeah. It’s great. To be [00:46:30] fair, I’d never played rugby before. Oh, really? I was always sporting. I did athletics and running, but it [00:46:35] was most of us. It was the 150th year because guys is the oldest rugby club in the world. [00:46:40] So they started they decided to start a ladies team, you know, because a number of the other hospitals and [00:46:45] things had it. So it predominantly ended up being the kind of girlfriends of the first and second 15 that [00:46:50] started a rugby team. And it went from there. And it was great fun. Okay, well, it was [00:46:55] great fun whilst we played the other hospitals because, you know, we actually did super well and we [00:47:00] won, but we then decided to go and try and play real teams. So I remember going on tour [00:47:05] to bath, where they had a ladies team, and even when they came out on the pitch, no disrespect, we [00:47:10] looked at them and went, are you kidding me?

Payman Langroudi: Did you get damaged?

Nyree Whitley: Wow. I was thinking, I need these [00:47:15] hands for my career. This is not fun anymore. These guys are serious. [00:47:20]

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t continue after guys.

Nyree Whitley: No no.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Nyree Whitley: No no. [00:47:25] I actually a total aside, but my final year, uh, I [00:47:30] went off on an elective, as we all did. I went to Canada, and then I went [00:47:35] to Los Angeles and then Las Vegas and then Hawaii.

Payman Langroudi: Which one of those was the work [00:47:40] bit? Any of it? L.a., L.A. and Canada. Ucla?

Nyree Whitley: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. And where in [00:47:45] Canada?

Nyree Whitley: We went to Toronto. Toronto dental school, which is lovely. However, I [00:47:50] went with a friend, so we did our kind of bit in the Dental school first, and then his aunty was [00:47:55] from kind of one of the skiing places there. So we went to I’d skied before but never [00:48:00] snowboarded so he said, oh, let’s try snowboarding. And I was like, okay, cool. So I did [00:48:05] a day of it with the lessons and thought, I don’t like this because I’m used to going forwards and I [00:48:10] can’t do this sideways thing and not detaching from the board. So I said to the guy teaching is, I’m really [00:48:15] not enjoying this. Can I change the skis? He was like, yeah, no problem, just change tomorrow to skis. Um, [00:48:20] so I said, okay, thanks. Went down the nursery slope to go back into the cafe, fell backwards, put my hands [00:48:25] behind me and broke my right wrist.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Nyree Whitley: And it was like, okay. I remember thinking, [00:48:30] oh, oh, like stubbing your toe, thinking, okay, the hour’s not going, something’s not [00:48:35] right. Yeah, yeah. And my friend who will know who he is, who we were with elective [00:48:40] together and I said, don’t say his name, but it’s like I [00:48:45] think I’ve broken my wrist. And he was. I think we need to go to hospital. And I kind of took my glove off and it [00:48:50] was all was all poking up like that. And he said, I’ve got to have a fag first. [00:48:55] Have a cigarette. I was like, you’re.

[TRANSITION]: Having a cigarette? What about my broken wrist? [00:49:00]

Nyree Whitley: So anyway, I went there and I had it cast, and then I went round on the rest of my elective in a plaster cast, [00:49:05] which was good from the perspective of. We kept getting upgraded on flights, which was amazing. So that was positive. [00:49:10] But when I came back and had the cast taken off, I kind of couldn’t [00:49:15] move my wrist and I just thought, well, you know, it’s stiff. It’s been in a cast. Um, but I remember going to one of [00:49:20] my registrars, who’s one of the oral surgery registrars who clearly had already done medicine and things as well. [00:49:25] And I said, should I be able to move my wrist? And he was like, let’s have a look. And [00:49:30] he was like, you need to go straight down to orthopaedics. So I had something called reflex [00:49:35] sympathetic dystrophy that apparently only old people usually get after they fall. So all of the [00:49:40] parasympathetic nervous system had been damaged, I think, cause I hadn’t been in a split cast and had been flying around [00:49:45] and doing various things, so I literally couldn’t move my right hand and I’m right I’m right handed. It was kind of stuck. [00:49:50] So I was a final year dental student about to go into elective, so thankfully I got [00:49:55] rushed in quickly. I had to have a load of guanethidine blocks, which was blocks to kill [00:50:00] off the parasympathetic nerves as an impatient and loads of physio. And I was very lucky [00:50:05] and it came back. So that was a little bit scary in my final. So I nearly wasn’t a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Was [00:50:10] there any element of that that then made you think I better have something non-clinical [00:50:15] to go? Is that, is that did it have any.

Nyree Whitley: No. I’ve just never been skiing since.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

[TRANSITION]: I’ve [00:50:20] only the chill factor in Manchester.

Payman Langroudi: Where have you grown up before, guys? Where [00:50:25] were.

[TRANSITION]: You?

Nyree Whitley: Wales is home for me.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, really? Yeah. Okay.

Nyree Whitley: So. Yeah. Um, so [00:50:30] I just, I went to, visited a number of different dental schools and things, you know, as you do [00:50:35] when you go and look at dental schools and things like bone marrow. I didn’t like it. It had [00:50:40] that moving lift thing.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Nyree Whitley: And I was like, oh, I can’t go there. I can’t keep getting on and off. It has. But [00:50:45] I was like, I can’t keep going on and on that lift. I went to Leeds and I fancy Cardiff. No, [00:50:50] I never applied to Cardiff because I didn’t want to stay in Wales. I am Welsh, very proud of being Welsh, [00:50:55] but I.

Payman Langroudi: Was in Cardiff.

Nyree Whitley: Oh, okay. Yeah. So it was when I went to [00:51:00] guy’s. I just liked it immediately. There was just something about it resonated with me. Clearly it depended [00:51:05] on the visit that I had, you know, on the day.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so small town, North [00:51:10] Wales. Yeah. To.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Big city. Yeah. What were you what were your [00:51:15] initial feelings when you, like, saw London Bridge and London Bridge back then. Wasn’t as nice as it is now.

Nyree Whitley: It wasn’t as nice [00:51:20] as it is now.

Payman Langroudi: You. Wolfson house.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. Wolfson house? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So were you were you excited [00:51:25] or nervous or both. Like, how did you feel? It was a bit dodgy, that area. I remember my brother was [00:51:30] around the same time as you. I just dropped him off. I said, it’s a bit dodgy here, you know, like.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, [00:51:35] I guess I was. I was used to going to London. My dad did a degree in London later on [00:51:40] in his career, so we used to go down to London, so I thought I knew London, whereas you know, I knew Trafalgar Square and places [00:51:45] like that. I didn’t really know London per se, but I never felt nervous. I [00:51:50] always felt really confident because most of what we did was very insular around [00:51:55] guys. I could have been anywhere, to be honest. But, um, I loved my time [00:52:00] there. I know everybody and not everybody.

Payman Langroudi: Not everybody, by the way. I loved my time. But yeah, [00:52:05] I’ve had several people sitting here saying it was some of the hardest times of their life, you know, like mentally, [00:52:10] mentally, I couldn’t handle it, didn’t fit in, you know, these sort of things. I [00:52:15] loved it too.

Nyree Whitley: I yeah, it was just I look back on it with [00:52:20] such fondness. It was great. I had a great time, great people, great [00:52:25] education, great balance of, you know, the rugby and the barn. I used to work in the bar. Play [00:52:30] hard, work hard. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You remember that character? Yeah. That was a happy character. [00:52:35] The person who worked in the bar. It was just always great.

Nyree Whitley: You got paid for being out with your friends. It’s like, [00:52:40] this is a win win. Um, so I grown.

Payman Langroudi: Up with jobs. [00:52:45]

Nyree Whitley: Had I grown up with jobs? Yeah. I’d always had weekend and evening and summer jobs.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [00:52:50]

Nyree Whitley: Always. Always wanted to earn my own money.

Payman Langroudi: So interesting. Because always I’ve sat and talked to so [00:52:55] many people here. And that one thing, people who had jobs as [00:53:00] a child end up being really, really successful. I’ve seen and a lot of them attribute [00:53:05] their a lot of their success to what they learnt in those jobs. Um, my kids [00:53:10] have never worked. Have yours?

Nyree Whitley: No, I mean, they’re too busy playing hockey, but it’s also [00:53:15] that thing of they’re not allowed to in the same way they, they kind of. My eldest is, um, [00:53:20] nearly 21. So she’s kind of, you know, done some work within uni and things, but not [00:53:25] in the same way. I literally and my sister the same. I’ve got a younger sister. We always had summer jobs [00:53:30] and always had weekend jobs, and it wasn’t because my parents told us to. We just [00:53:35] wanted to. I kind of, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Want to have your own money.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, I figured out, you know, if I wanted [00:53:40] to buy additional things, I needed to go and earn the money.

Payman Langroudi: To do it. But my kids don’t have that problem. Yeah, they [00:53:45] ask for stuff and they just get it. I know, I know. I mean, it’s a [00:53:50] way that you were brought up that made it like that.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, but I remember one of my things [00:53:55] that I had from when I was very little, like kind of 3 or 4, I had this yellow patent [00:54:00] bag that I used to go around telling everybody, it’s my bag. [00:54:05] It’s my important bag for me to do my work with. So maybe they [00:54:10] all started off at that age even before I could work. But I’d say I love, [00:54:15] I love work, I’ve always loved work, but clinical dentistry [00:54:20] didn’t give me what I wanted. Well.

Payman Langroudi: When you think [00:54:25] back, I remember when I think back, when I think back to why was [00:54:30] it I stopped doing clinical dentistry or had these lofty goals of doing supplying [00:54:35] dentists? Yeah. What was it about it? And what do I think back on it? It was [00:54:40] in the four walls and I remember [00:54:45] loving the particular job I was in because it was a fully private job, and I and I was making [00:54:50] more money than I’d ever made in my life. And I liked my nurse and I like the princess, [00:54:55] so everything was right about it. Yeah. But as a 27 year old or whatever I was, [00:55:00] I thought even if I do the best, best thing, I’m [00:55:05] only impacting a five mile radius of these four walls. Yeah. And I think it was a childish thing because [00:55:10] in a way, I could have I could have had 100 practices right? Then I’d have much more impact. Yeah. But [00:55:15] in that moment, I couldn’t handle it. What was it for you?

Nyree Whitley: It was boring. [00:55:20]

Payman Langroudi: Clinical?

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. You found it too monotonous.

Payman Langroudi: Not fast moving enough. [00:55:25]

Nyree Whitley: And it was like. I love the patients. I love the interaction with patients. Genuinely. That’s [00:55:30] part of why I went into dentistry. Because I like people. I like working with people. Um, [00:55:35] but it was just. And I did courses and I did, you know, Paul Tipton’s courses. And I thought, well, [00:55:40] should I should I do? Period. And it was just there was nothing that excited me clinically. [00:55:45] I just, I thought, I cannot spend the rest of my career working [00:55:50] in the thought of buying my own practice and therefore being in the same place with [00:55:55] the same patients for the next 40 years just filled me with dread. I like change, [00:56:00] I like challenge, and I need to be challenged and be busy. But [00:56:05] it is great also to have an impact on more people, more patients, more clinicians, [00:56:10] and to be able to make more of a difference. Genuinely, I just got really bored.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:56:15] then someone who gets bored easily. Yeah, I, I, I imagine [00:56:20] you have loads of meetings.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, but they’re all different every day. [00:56:25] All day. Different challenges.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe I’m ADHD. I hate meetings. Even [00:56:30] if it’s about the most. The thing I’m most passionate about. Yeah. After all, my team knows after about 25 [00:56:35] minutes, I’m zoning. I’m nervous. I’m zoning out. You must [00:56:40] have me. Let’s go through your typical day.

Nyree Whitley: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: What time do you wake up?

Nyree Whitley: Me? [00:56:45] 4:45.

Payman Langroudi: What? In the darkness.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, cause I’m in the gym [00:56:50] by six. Always. Every day. Every day.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. Okay. Every day is [00:56:55] a gym nearby?

Nyree Whitley: Uh, it’s about ten, 15 minute drive. Something like that.

Payman Langroudi: You live in Chester?

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, I live [00:57:00] in Chester. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So go ahead.

Nyree Whitley: So I’ll be in the gym from six, [00:57:05] uh, usually six till about half seven. Course two, eight, something like that.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:57:10] do you do the whole sort of, uh, sauna? Cold spa, kind of. It’s all. [00:57:15] It’s all hard core.

Nyree Whitley: It’s all hard core.

Payman Langroudi: Do you weights?

Nyree Whitley: I do weights four days a week. [00:57:20] I do, I do high rocks. I do high rocks classes a couple of days a week, and then I run 3 or 4 times [00:57:25] a week as well. Bloody hell. So I love exercise. I love exercise, and I [00:57:30] also like the interaction the gym is it’s it’s an independent gym. It’s a big ish independent gym. [00:57:35] But it really is people that just love fitness and exercise, so there’s not crazy people there. They’re [00:57:40] fantastic group of supportive people. So there is never a time I go to the gym where there [00:57:45] aren’t people there that I know. So it’s lovely as well, because particularly when they know I’m going to go home. Am I meeting [00:57:50] start either eight or half eight.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll just carry on with the gym. Okay. Have you got headphones on? [00:57:55]

Nyree Whitley: No, because I like to interact with people.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So then back home. [00:58:00]

Nyree Whitley: So then I’ll get home, get ready, get some breakfast. Uh, say, my youngest is still [00:58:05] at home, so, um, I’m divorced, so if [00:58:10] she’s with me, uh, I need to make sure she’s up, although she always is, and get her sorted off to go to school. Then [00:58:15] my meetings start at eight or half eight, so they will usually be when they’re that [00:58:20] early. Something like one to ones with other. My colleagues, uh, the COO, sometimes [00:58:25] COO, CFO, CPO uh, weekly leadership calls. So we’ll have the whole team [00:58:30] on and go over things or one to ones with my team. So because I look [00:58:35] after the clinical teams, I’ll have one to ones with all the clinical directors. But [00:58:40] then I also look after compliance and registration.

Payman Langroudi: For the whole group.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, for the whole group, health [00:58:45] and safety for the whole group, and also patient support and services that deals with patient complaints. [00:58:50] Um, and you’re.

Payman Langroudi: In charge of all of those four things? Yeah. Goodness. [00:58:55] Okay.

Nyree Whitley: Amazing teams. I have amazing teams.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So, so so [00:59:00] these are like, zoom meetings, like teams meetings, teams meetings.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. So with all of them, then we may have some external [00:59:05] meetings. Then we’ll have steering groups. So there’ll be like growth projects. [00:59:10] There’ll be.

Payman Langroudi: You’re.

Nyree Whitley: Still sitting.

Payman Langroudi: At home and back to back meetings. Yeah. [00:59:15] Oh, God. That would kill me. That would just. I would hate that.

Nyree Whitley: A couple of it’s about 2 or 3 days a week. [00:59:20] Will usually be at home, but.

Payman Langroudi: Back to back meetings all day.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. All day.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. [00:59:25] Wow. And what’s your process? Meeting ends. Are you making notes or something? What [00:59:30] are you doing?

Nyree Whitley: No, I, I do make some notes on a notepad. Pod. Yeah, I [00:59:35] mentally make a lot of my notes. It’s just how I work. If I’m writing, I’m [00:59:40] not listening. Um, although we started using AI now for our meetings [00:59:45] to kind of, like, record the meeting notes, which is revolutionary. Yeah. Um, although [00:59:50] it will do things like record how many.

Payman Langroudi: Typically you’re talking to a regional, uh, [00:59:55] clinical director.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is it? I guess [01:00:00] I guess there’s things that that person can take care of themselves, and they’re the things that they can’t take [01:00:05] care of. And that’s what they’re talking to you about. Well, give me an example of that. What? What kind of thing might [01:00:10] that be?

Nyree Whitley: Uh, first thing will be, how are they? You know, that’s always.

Payman Langroudi: Keeping [01:00:15] them happy.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. Always remember my not being mean about my ex-husband, [01:00:20] but my ex-husband. Always remember him when it was Covid. So he started to have some meetings. He’s [01:00:25] in it, so nothing like me at all. But I remember him saying to me, oh, I’ve kind of had a 1 to 1 with my boss. And [01:00:30] she’s saying when I’m having one on ones with my teams, I. The first thing I should ask him is how you are. [01:00:35] And I was like, do you not automatically ask them how they are? He was like, no, [01:00:40] but that’s always the first thing you ask people, right? Because if people are not happy or mentally in the right space [01:00:45] or you need to understand them and I want to get, you know, I, I want to know my [01:00:50] teams, I need to know if they’re having any personal issues or problems or if there’s any more support [01:00:55] that we can give them. So that’ll be the first ten minutes of the meeting. Or it might be, you know, what we’ve done at [01:01:00] the weekend or, you know, and the rest of it, then it will be there is kind of with those [01:01:05] people, key criteria that they will go through a proforma, which is where they’ll update me on things like, [01:01:10] say, productivity, how are implants going? Whiteners aligners, those kind of things, compliance [01:01:15] and stuff in their regions. How are their teams.

Payman Langroudi: Like performance indicators?

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, yeah. So those [01:01:20] kind of things. But then there’ll be things that they need to discuss, and it may be problems that they have with their [01:01:25] teams. It may be scenarios around clinicians that they have. It may be issues around, [01:01:30] you know, NHS concerns that we have maybe some commissioning things or suggestions. [01:01:35] So it’s those kind of things you know, I will support with. Or sometimes they will need sign [01:01:40] off or sometimes they will need my support to approach other areas of the business where that [01:01:45] they are struggling with, for example.

Payman Langroudi: All right. That meeting’s over. What’s the next meeting?

Nyree Whitley: Typically [01:01:50] it can be something like a business review. So that’s where I’ll be the clinical director [01:01:55] and the director of region for a region. And we will go through there on a monthly basis there about an hour, [01:02:00] an hour and a half long. So that’ll be me, the the CEO, CPO, CEO [01:02:05] going through their performance, having a look at their recruitment, their performance, their projected performance, [01:02:10] what’s going well, what isn’t, what further support do they need be [01:02:15] that kind of thing. Then it might be something like a health and safety committee meeting, a clinical governance board. [01:02:20] Then it’ll be external meetings with things like, uh, one of the things that we’re looking to implement [01:02:25] at the moment is radiography AI. So. Oh, I also look after I forgot [01:02:30] Got apologies. Um, I have private and specialist under me now as well, so they’ve come [01:02:35] under me.

Payman Langroudi: So all of that group.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. So the clinical commercial director who had a private and specialist reports into [01:02:40] me. So a lot of the stuff. Yeah. Nick. So a lot of the stuff he does his innovation. So [01:02:45] that will be looking forwards. Uh, so we are radiography.

Payman Langroudi: I say, [01:02:50] Pearl.

Nyree Whitley: Uh, we’ve looked at Pearl, we’ve looked at video, we’ve looked at Overjet. So we’re [01:02:55] looking at a number of them. Yeah. We talk to work very closely with a number [01:03:00] of my American colleagues. Learn a lot from them, from Aspen Heartland, the big groups over there, they always do things a bit [01:03:05] before we do. So it’s really useful to look at what they’ve done. Um, so it may well be [01:03:10] meetings with them or with Nick around where we’ve got to or with our IT team around [01:03:15] intraoral scanners. We’ve got a whole scanner team, and I’ve got clinical bits of it and, you know, non-clinical [01:03:20] bits supporting where they’re going in the estate. How is that going? Clinical digital [01:03:25] workflow. Therefore what labs do we need. So it’ll be around the lab piece that we’re doing. [01:03:30] So there’ll be lots of. So it’s loads of different stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Nyree Whitley: Some of it will be with my exec [01:03:35] team members, you know, around strategy and things. Five year plan.

Payman Langroudi: When does it all end? When the [01:03:40] 530.

Nyree Whitley: No meetings do. Usually end at 530. Um, [01:03:45] I will I’m. I don’t know if I’m bad. It just fits [01:03:50] me. I do not expect my team to look at their emails after hours. I know [01:03:55] that if there is something urgent that I can call them and they will answer, but really, realistically, [01:04:00] what is that urgent around a dental practice that needs to be dealt with out of hours? [01:04:05] Um, we will have some people that work condensed hours, so they will work [01:04:10] in the evening as opposed to working in the day. Um, so I will check my phone for [01:04:15] emails and things that come through. I hate my phone. Never has any notifications [01:04:20] on it, personal or work. I’m a bit OCD with that. Don’t show me yours if it does. I [01:04:25] don’t have a single notification. I get rid of everything.

Payman Langroudi: That makes.

Nyree Whitley: Me everything? Oh [01:04:30] my God. I can’t cope with that. No, I mean, mine will have them now because [01:04:35] they’ve come in while we’ve been talking. But no, I clear everything. I always like my decks.

Payman Langroudi: To do [01:04:40] that. Yeah. Go on. Do you still keep on working after 530?

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, but I might go. Go to [01:04:45] the gym or spend time with the children. Or spend time with friends. Sometimes I go twice a day. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whoa.

Nyree Whitley: Have [01:04:50] a bit of an obsession, but it’s. I say to the, you know, my kids where they sometimes go. Mommy, [01:04:55] do you think you have a problem with exercise? I’m like, well, maybe. But there are much worse problems to have. I just [01:05:00] love it. I like it makes me feel okay.

Payman Langroudi: Dinner. Do you cook? [01:05:05]

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. And then what’s very impatient? Cook.

Payman Langroudi: What time do you go to bed?

Nyree Whitley: I go to bed about nine. [01:05:10] Because of getting up at 4:45, I’ll read between 9 and 10. I’ll read a book [01:05:15] and a non-work book.

Payman Langroudi: Which bit of that do you see as me? Time? Obviously. The reading bit. [01:05:20] The gym?

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, the gym and the gym. And the book. And the spending time with [01:05:25] children and friends. I watch watched some rubbish TV and things as well. Good.

Payman Langroudi: You know.

Nyree Whitley: I do. I do. [01:05:30]

Payman Langroudi: And then what is that? Rinse, repeat the next day. Similar.

Nyree Whitley: Five days? Yeah. Some of the days I’ll be out in [01:05:35] the field, so I’ll go out with my clinical directors. It’s really important that I. You know, I need to still [01:05:40] talk to the guys on the ground. You know, they’re the real people that know what’s going on. So always try and get [01:05:45] out at least one day a week, and then some days it will be travelled to usually London, Manchester [01:05:50] or Birmingham for team meetings like what we call our cops meeting. It’s clinical operations, [01:05:55] bringing everybody together. You know, in one big meeting there once a month, my exact meetings [01:06:00] or once a month board meeting once a month, a month, those kind of things will bring me to [01:06:05] London.

[TRANSITION]: Oh my God, a busy executive. Busy, busy.

Nyree Whitley: I love being busy. [01:06:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, fine, fine, fine. I mean, there’s the idea of starting your own corporate. Not [01:06:15] crossed your mind.

[TRANSITION]: Oh.

Nyree Whitley: I wish I’d done it when I was younger. If I’d [01:06:20] have known and understood what I know now. But now I think the think the problem [01:06:25] for me is having worked in my dentist and been its. [01:06:30] For example, during Covid we were so lucky. I mean, I was busier than I ever [01:06:35] was then. I was working evenings and things and everything else. But you know, that’s understandable. But [01:06:40] we had people with expertise in every single area of dentistry [01:06:45] and both business and non-business to call on. I mean, such a lucky [01:06:50] position with that. That’s why I know you say, oh, yeah, well, I might be the head dentist. Yeah, but I have teams [01:06:55] of people who genuinely are amazing. We have a very flat structure. It is like the whole thing [01:07:00] with, you know, talking to the cleaner in NASA. What do you do? I put the first astronaut on the moon. [01:07:05] That is genuinely what it’s like. There is no thing of, oh, I can’t talk to Nori because she’s [01:07:10] chief clinical officer. Anybody and anybody can come to me with their views, their [01:07:15] perspectives. And it’s everybody is important in our business and we’re very, very [01:07:20] good at that. It is not hierarchical at all. You have to have those positions. [01:07:25] Sometimes the buck stops with me. Sometimes we as an exec have to make a decision and it’s going to be a difficult decision, [01:07:30] right? It is what it is. But everybody contributes and we’re very collaborative. [01:07:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, when I’ve noticed that with you sort of senior people is [01:07:40] is at the conference, which is extraordinary, extraordinary. [01:07:45]

Nyree Whitley: Having one this year didn’t have one last year.

Payman Langroudi: But yet again, the production value of that thing blew me [01:07:50] away. I had no idea that that was what it was going to be. Huge. Yeah. Huge event.

Nyree Whitley: Our [01:07:55] internal teams that put that together.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But you could see the the good mood that everyone was in [01:08:00] as well. And you know like really good bit of education, a lot of fun. And [01:08:05] the um how many people turn up to that?

Nyree Whitley: I think we had about 800 now. [01:08:10]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Nyree Whitley: And more maybe on the second on the CPD day last time. We’ll try and get more this [01:08:15] time, as many as possible, as many as possible because it’s about, you know, it’s a joint thing. It’s around [01:08:20] educating them around the business and what we’re doing. And then it’s also around educating them around dentistry. But it [01:08:25] also is that thing of giving them an opportunity to talk to us, you know, and feedback as well, with [01:08:30] the best will in the world. 3500 dentists, I have met them all right. They can all email me. We do [01:08:35] our little. I mean, I always laugh because we do a lot of video that we, [01:08:40] you know, send out to practices both at management level and clinician level. And so whenever [01:08:45] I go to a practice, it’s really funny because they’ll go, ah, I know who you are. I’ve seen [01:08:50] you on the video things. It’s really weird. And then they’re like, oh, you’re much smaller or whatever else, but [01:08:55] it’s really important that we are reachable. I hate [01:09:00] I do not like Ivory tower. I do not like. [01:09:05] I remember distinctly my cousin was a solicitor in the military.

Nyree Whitley: And when I finished my O-levels, [01:09:10] because I was the last year of people doing O-levels, I went over to Germany and Berlin to go and visit her. [01:09:15] And she was an officer because she was a solicitor, and I was staying in the officer’s mess. And I just walked across to the I remember [01:09:20] what they call the shop anyway. And some soldiers just stopped me to talk to me, and I kind of like, ah, you [01:09:25] know, you’re Jane’s cousin and whatever else, blah, blah, blah. And I just chatted to them and I went back and she said, who [01:09:30] was that you were talking to? And I was like, oh, I don’t know. It was just some soldiers. She was like, you can’t talk to them. You’ll stay in the [01:09:35] officer’s mess. This was a long time ago, and it’s not the same anymore. But I hate that because people [01:09:40] are people and everybody’s opinion is valued. So I’m [01:09:45] not always going to come up with the best ideas. I have to validate them and say whether it’s something we can do financially, [01:09:50] economically, commercially, strategically for the business. But I don’t have all the ideas.

Payman Langroudi: I’d [01:09:55] like to go to two different areas now. One, we like to talk about mistakes. [01:10:00]

Nyree Whitley: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Before we do that though, um, what [01:10:05] was an idea of yours that did become a thing? And you’re proud of Cdas. [01:10:10]

Nyree Whitley: So we used to clinical development advisors.

Payman Langroudi: Oh those guys.

Nyree Whitley: So we used to have [01:10:15] clinical support managers. Yeah. Um, who were kind of similar, but it was more of a kind [01:10:20] of compliance type checking role. They did a bit of interaction with dentists, but [01:10:25] even the whole word manager being in the title, right? They weren’t perceived in the right way. But we changed [01:10:30] them to clinical development advisors and change what they do and have doubled [01:10:35] the number of clinical people that we’ve got in the business to support our clinicians and the way they support [01:10:40] our clinicians and the way we have people with different levels of expertise, like guys that particularly [01:10:45] support mentors and mentees, those with experts in aligners, experts in implants, [01:10:50] central people. We never had a clinical central team. So those bits increasing [01:10:55] the clinical team and the breadth of it I’m most proud of, [01:11:00] and also that team now is actually also super commercial. They’re not just clinical. [01:11:05] They get business, which is great.

Payman Langroudi: Are you up for talking about your compensation? [01:11:10]

Nyree Whitley: What do you mean compensation in terms of.

Payman Langroudi: The way you get paid? Do you get paid in [01:11:15] shares as well as in.

Nyree Whitley: I have shares. I have chairs and I have celery. I would earn a lot more [01:11:20] if I was in practice, but you know, I would. I see some clinicians, particularly orthodontists, [01:11:25] saying knew I should have become an orthodontist, but it’s I, I can’t [01:11:30] complain about what I get paid because it’s more important for [01:11:35] me just to love my job. If I wanted to earn a load of money, I would genuinely have stayed in practice. I would [01:11:40] have earned more money. But I have shares, um, shares.

Payman Langroudi: But if a friendly [01:11:45] Saudi billionaire said, hey, let’s open a chain of dental practices together, do [01:11:50] you think you’d go for I mean, you’ve got so much energy still when you said when you were younger. [01:11:55] Yeah, of course, but now you’re waking up 4 a.m. every day [01:12:00] to go to the gym. You could pull it off, as I’m not saying do it, but if it happened, [01:12:05] you’d be the right person. You’d be the right partner to consider it.

Nyree Whitley: You’d consider it. But I, [01:12:10] I love my dentist. I love what it’s done for me in my career. I love the people in it. [01:12:15] And it is. I mean, I’ll never forget. Susanna Reid, though, said she was BBC through and through [01:12:20] and if you cut her in half you’d see BBC and then she went to work for ITV. So maybe that would [01:12:25] be me, but it wouldn’t just be on a on a money on its own [01:12:30] doesn’t drive me.

Payman Langroudi: Well, I mean, this project would probably be [01:12:35] more risky anyway, right? Yeah. It’s that question of, you know, doing something of your own. I mean, it’s obvious talking [01:12:40] to you that you feel like you, you, you are owning part of ideas by dentists, whether or not, [01:12:45] you know, that’s reflected in the share number.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. Let’s talk about mistakes.

Nyree Whitley: Okay. [01:12:50] Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind when I say mistakes. We like to talk about clinical mistakes. But [01:12:55] with you it might be a different type of mistake. It might be a business mistake.

Nyree Whitley: I [01:13:00] think clinical mistakes. Everybody’s made mistakes right. [01:13:05] Um I think sometimes that whole thing that we’re all all told about, you [01:13:10] know, don’t overpromise and under-deliver and under promise and over deliver. You know, you all think [01:13:15] when you’re younger. I’ve never had anything, thankfully, go catastrophically wrong. [01:13:20] Um, but maybe I’ve not judged. You know, actually, [01:13:25] the worst thing that I ever did was in facial aesthetics, where it was somebody with a body dysmorphia [01:13:30] where I thought I could make her happy, and I didn’t. Yeah, it’s similar with dentures, [01:13:35] I think, isn’t it? You know, when you think you can make an amazing denture for somebody who comes in with a bag of them? Thankfully, [01:13:40] I’ve never had any really bad mistakes, you know. Have I had complaints? Yeah, of course I have. Everybody has.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:13:45] So what happened with that patient that you did their face, but they were still unhappy? I just [01:13:50] you couldn’t make them happy.

Nyree Whitley: I just saw them lots of times and just would not do any more. Recognised that I would not [01:13:55] do any more on them. I only did one lot of fillers for her, but just recognised that, you know, [01:14:00] just to talk to her about the fact that I thought she needed to see somebody for [01:14:05] help, because I didn’t think she had a problem and an issue, and I said I didn’t think I could [01:14:10] help her any further. So, you know, you have.

Payman Langroudi: To have that conversation Did she take that [01:14:15] badly?

Nyree Whitley: She just. She would have gone to the next person, right? Who would have given her more stuff and [01:14:20] done more fillers and stuff on her that wasn’t, you know, that wasn’t going to be me. Um, [01:14:25] you know, corporate mistakes.

Payman Langroudi: Mistakes you’ve made in this corporate role. [01:14:30]

Nyree Whitley: Oh, it was it’s things like we as a business made a [01:14:35] mistake when when I first came into ID, as was I remember [01:14:40] my clinical director at the time who was my boss, telling me I only learned very late [01:14:45] on that we were being acquired by ID. I remember him saying, could he come to my house to talk [01:14:50] to me? And you kind of think that’s not normal? You kind of think, I don’t think I’ve done anything wrong. And he told [01:14:55] me about the acquisition, and I just remember taking a sharp intake of breath. And I kind of went, huh? [01:15:00] Because what’s.

Payman Langroudi: Going to happen.

Nyree Whitley: Next? I’m not sure I want to work for them. They had a bad reputation at [01:15:05] the time. I thought, that doesn’t really align with my values. They kind of, you know, the [01:15:10] perception of them. And when I first came into this business, [01:15:15] there was the thing of. They were telling dentists and [01:15:20] they had targets around Udas and we had to. Align with that as a clinical [01:15:25] team. And you would talk to clinicians about the fact that they hadn’t achieved their target, [01:15:30] and that was wrong. And we recognised that was wrong as a business. It definitely wasn’t my idea. But, [01:15:35] you know, did I being new into the business, speak up about it soon enough? Probably [01:15:40] not. No.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Nyree Whitley: You know you’ve frightened out, you know, you want to keep your job and it’s new [01:15:45] and it’s, you know management. And I’d never been in a big PE owned business before. We [01:15:50] were just privately owned by two guys who were great at dental care.

Payman Langroudi: Dental care was how many practices. [01:15:55]

Nyree Whitley: About 30 mostly in Wales, a couple over in Suffolk, which is a bit random.

Payman Langroudi: Totally different, isn’t it? [01:16:00] Completely private business where you can literally change things overnight.

Nyree Whitley: And you all the clinicians?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:16:05] So did you find that you were quite good at corporate? Let’s just call it for the sake of [01:16:10] it Politicking. Yeah. So where did you get that from? Were you just naturally [01:16:15] quite good at that?

Nyree Whitley: It’s just naturally inherent. I didn’t do a course to learn it. I like people, [01:16:20] and I think it’s just years of working with people. I think as dentists, you know, we have [01:16:25] to be you have to be very diplomatic with people every [01:16:30] day. And so I think it’s what I learned through being a dentist. And I’m very [01:16:35] I’m very transparent. I’m not known for hiding what I think. [01:16:40] I’m rubbish at poker because you can tell on my face exactly what I think. Now, I’ve [01:16:45] been told that’s a strength and a weakness sometimes, you know? A lot of people say we love it. [01:16:50] You say it as it is. People who work for me, there’s no backstabbing. They will know exactly if [01:16:55] I’m not happy with what they’re doing or don’t agree, I will tell them sometimes. Maybe that’s hard to [01:17:00] take, but at least they know where where they are with me. So from that perspective, I don’t [01:17:05] think I’m political because I don’t. I don’t like spin. Yeah, despise. [01:17:10]

Payman Langroudi: I think political is the wrong word. Just just the way that you have to behave in a corporate environment. [01:17:15] Yeah, yeah, it’s very, very different.

Nyree Whitley: It is very.

Payman Langroudi: Different in a private environment. Yeah. So did you take to that [01:17:20] very easily because of, because what you’re saying. Yeah. As a dentist you have to be diplomatic. But [01:17:25] but I can imagine so many dentists I’m thinking of would, would, would struggle with [01:17:30] opinionated dentistry. Um, do you ever struggle with that? [01:17:35] Do you ever struggle with the idea that, you know, you can’t make quick changes?

Nyree Whitley: No, we’re a [01:17:40] supertanker. I know it takes a while for us to turn. You have to accept that. Otherwise you’d just be really frustrated. [01:17:45]

Payman Langroudi: However, you guys are better at it than than some. Though I’ve noticed we are. [01:17:50]

Nyree Whitley: And I couldn’t. I tell you, I couldn’t work for the NHS. I [01:17:55] mean, I even go in. My youngest is having orthodontic treatment. Her orthodontist is [01:18:00] amazing, but I go and every time she has an appointment and the inefficiencies [01:18:05] in the system drives me Drives me insane. And the way, you [01:18:10] know, even just things like when you need another appointment, they don’t make you the appointment. They say, no, we’ve got to post [01:18:15] it to you. So I was like, so you’ve got to pay for postage. You’re going to send me an appointment. You haven’t consulted me [01:18:20] about whether I can do it or not. I’ve then got to take my time to try and ring you to change it. That’s [01:18:25] crazy. That is crazy.

Payman Langroudi: You know what? I sometimes see it as is, you know, [01:18:30] TSA, you know, the airport security.

Nyree Whitley: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. In airport security. You know that feeling [01:18:35] that you’re just, like, trotting down with your head down, trying to just do what you’re told, and then you see the [01:18:40] the security people, they’re kind of sometimes they’re joking and laughing between themselves and loving it. Having a great day. Yeah. [01:18:45] And any like, you know, anywhere where the number of call [01:18:50] it customers. Yeah. Is guaranteed. Mhm. In the end the [01:18:55] business becomes a little bit complacent when it comes to making customers happy [01:19:00] because there’s another customer and another one and another one. You don’t have to fight for the customer. You have to [01:19:05] fight for word of mouth. And the NHS is a bit like that. There’s an unlimited number of patients and. [01:19:10]

Nyree Whitley: But they take so long to make a decision.

Payman Langroudi: Well, it’s not focussed on making [01:19:15] patients happy.

Nyree Whitley: Who make the decisions. Don’t even understand the stuff underneath that. Sorry [01:19:20] NHS ministers and things, but you don’t.

Payman Langroudi: I think I think a lot of [01:19:25] them themselves recognise that to MPP.

Nyree Whitley: So we’re halfway [01:19:30] through January and they haven’t decided whether MPP is continuing or not in March.

Payman Langroudi: Explain [01:19:35] what that is to people.

Nyree Whitley: New patient premium. So where there is a premium for seeing new patients, an additional [01:19:40] amount for seeing some bantus as well as banned ones, it has increased the [01:19:45] access to new patients accessing NHS dentistry. No, not all the money has been spent. [01:19:50] But any access, you know, any improvement is great. So for us who strategically [01:19:55] are trying to decide do our budgets for next year, financial year end March, we’re [01:20:00] going we’re going to have MPP. We’re not what’s going to happen with our patients. Do we Do we [01:20:05] need to pivot those patients then are they going to what are dentists going to do? Are dentists still going [01:20:10] to continue to see the same number of NHS patients or will they go. No, I’m not seeing [01:20:15] you NHS patients now. I’m going to go back to seeing private new patients only. Yeah [01:20:20] it’s crazy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What would be your next [01:20:25] move if there was a next move? I mean, would you move to a job that had nothing to do with dentistry?

Nyree Whitley: I [01:20:30] would consider it, but I love dentistry. You know, it is. It would be healthcare because [01:20:35] I believe passionately in trying to help people. As you know, part of the reason I went into dentistry. So [01:20:40] to go out of that altogether, I think I would struggle with. So it would be more I’d love to be a CEO [01:20:45] of a healthcare company. I will be a CEO of a healthcare company.

Payman Langroudi: Is that right? [01:20:50] Yeah. I like that. I like that. We’ve come to the end of our time, but I’m going to end it with [01:20:55] the same questions that we always end it with. Okay. Fantasy [01:21:00] dinner party.

Nyree Whitley: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests. Okay. Dead or [01:21:05] alive, who would you have?

Nyree Whitley: Dead. One. Marilyn. Marilyn. Monroe. [01:21:10]

Payman Langroudi: Ah!

Nyree Whitley: I would love to know about what really happened. I used to love reading books [01:21:15] about her when I was young. I used to love her films. And so I’m intrigued to know the truth. [01:21:20] I definitely don’t think you know we’re anywhere near the truth. So definitely her.

Payman Langroudi: Candle in the wind.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. [01:21:25] Yeah, exactly. So that would be I would and [01:21:30] this is not sycophantic, but I would love to have the younger me go [01:21:35] on. Um, I would love to tell me not to worry so much about things. [01:21:40] To be confident in your own convictions, you know, not to worry about, [01:21:45] um, you know, stereotyping about being, you know, a female in [01:21:50] things. And just to go with your gut. I would love [01:21:55] to do that. I mean, I’m super happy in my career and I’ve had a great life, and [01:22:00] I genuinely am a very happy person. But as a teenager, I think I worried a lot about. [01:22:05] Yeah. And you know, and a lot about I mean, thankfully I’m not growing up in this [01:22:10] day and age, but I worried so much about what I look like and what other people [01:22:15] thought of me. Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: As an aside, being a woman [01:22:20] in dentistry or a woman in the corporate world.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you still think [01:22:25] that there’s disadvantages to glass ceilings or do you think that’s all in dentistry. [01:22:30]

Nyree Whitley: Definitely not. I mean, there’s more women in dentistry than there are men, aren’t there? Um, [01:22:35] in the corporate world, it does still make a difference. It does. And you know what also makes a difference? [01:22:40] Being small. I’m only five foot three. My sister is five foot ten. [01:22:45] She’s a doctor. She commands much more of a presence in the room than me because I’m [01:22:50] little. I wish I was a bit taller.

Payman Langroudi: I think there was some. There was some. There was some research about Harvard [01:22:55] graduates that their height was more relevant to their business success than their [01:23:00] final year score completely.

Nyree Whitley: But it was what it was.

Payman Langroudi: My daughter. What do you mean? In [01:23:05] the business world, do you find sometimes you’re in a room full of men and and and the atmosphere [01:23:10] is masculine and.

Nyree Whitley: No, not that.

Payman Langroudi: I just say people already have preconceived notions [01:23:15] of.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. Particularly, you know, I’m small, I’m blonde, long hair [01:23:20] and everything else. I like makeup, I like nice clothes, so. But sometimes I love that sometimes [01:23:25] they can have a preconceived view of me and then it’s great.

Payman Langroudi: As in, they underestimate you.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. Yeah. [01:23:30]

Payman Langroudi: Do you still think that goes on? Yeah, without a doubt.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, 100%. [01:23:35]

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Nyree Whitley: Everywhere, you know. And I don’t encounter it a lot, but I do encounter [01:23:40] it sometimes a lot less now than I used to be.

Payman Langroudi: You know, women dentists [01:23:45] talk about not enough lady speakers. Yeah. And we’ve talked [01:23:50] about it a lot. But why? Why are they not enough lady speakers? And there’s an element of [01:23:55] it, you could say, oh, old boys network, all of that stuff. There’s an element of it where women don’t [01:24:00] put themselves forward.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, I think we just busy, right. So particularly if you have a family because [01:24:05] you’re expected to do the family as well as the career. And I know, you know, a lot of men do just as [01:24:10] much as women in families now, but it’s still that traditional role.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:24:15] I mean, even things like asking for a pay rise. Yeah. You know, you [01:24:20] know, you’re in corporate. I find in the end, people who ask tend to get [01:24:25] it quicker than people who don’t ask. But I prefer people who don’t ask. And [01:24:30] for me, it’s a real tension.

Nyree Whitley: I always have an issue with that with regard to even our clinicians and people [01:24:35] within the business. So people that kick and scream and shout end up getting it. And your loyal [01:24:40] people that just carry on that do a great job, they don’t get it. It drives me insane. [01:24:45]

Payman Langroudi: Me too. But I’m guilty of it myself. Yeah. Because if someone’s asking and I’m worried, are they going to [01:24:50] leave or whatever? You know, they’re crucial people.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. Some people are not frightened of calling people’s bluff, are they? [01:24:55] But a lot of people are. They don’t ask because then I might get told, you know. No. Well, fine. Go.

Payman Langroudi: Who’s [01:25:00] your next guest? Yourself. From age 14. Marilyn Monroe. [01:25:05]

Nyree Whitley: And actually, you know what? I would love my sport. When I was younger, uh, was [01:25:10] hurdles. Sprint hurdles. Um. And I would love Colin Jackson because he was my [01:25:15] hero when I was younger. And I think he’s always been really well represented the sport [01:25:20] both athletically and, you know, the way he presented himself himself. [01:25:25] For sure. For sure. So I’d love to have him there too. Excellent. And he’s Welsh. [01:25:30]

Payman Langroudi: That’s right, that’s right. Um. Final question.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:25:35] deathbed question. Okay. On your deathbed, surrounded by your loved ones grandchildren’s [01:25:40] grandchildren. Whatever. Yeah. What are the three pieces of advice that you would leave [01:25:45] to them? Mhm.

Nyree Whitley: Um. Am I allowed to swear?

Payman Langroudi: Of [01:25:50] course. Yeah. Encourage it.

Nyree Whitley: So I have a picture on my kitchen wall [01:25:55] that my children say is say it’s most inappropriate, but that I love. And I kind of [01:26:00] live by to a certain extent. And it says a wise woman once said, fuck [01:26:05] this shit. And she lived happily ever after. And [01:26:10] it is just don’t have regrets. Go with your gut.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:26:15] the thing is, if you trust your gut. Yeah, yeah. There’s some people whose [01:26:20] gut are more trustable than others. You know, like some. Some people just have a gut instinct and they [01:26:25] go with it, and it works.

Nyree Whitley: You only ever regret the things that you don’t do, though, right? Because I’m not saying [01:26:30] the things we do is always right. But like dentistry, that’s how you learn. I mean, don’t get me [01:26:35] wrong. Be kind. Right? And that is one of my other things that I always say that I’ve absolutely instilled in my [01:26:40] children. Be kind to people. You never know what people are going through. I will never [01:26:45] forget this has stayed with me for such a long time. I was good at sport when I was younger. [01:26:50] I remember in P.E., I laughed at Yvonne Tansley. I remember her name [01:26:55] in school. I was probably about 13. I laughed at her in P.E. because when she ran, her [01:27:00] legs kind of went out to the side. And I remember my P.E. teacher tearing [01:27:05] a strip off me, rightly so, and saying, how dare you laugh at somebody else? [01:27:10] She is trying. You are good at all these things. Don’t ever undermine [01:27:15] somebody else. And that is it. Is that being with you? Yeah, absolutely. [01:27:20] Being kind and never forgetting. You do not know what people have got going [01:27:25] on behind the curtains.

Payman Langroudi: Is that your second piece of advice?

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, that’s my second piece of advice. And [01:27:30] the other one is just get up at five. People who get [01:27:35] up at five. Okay, I do close to five, but that’s because I got to put makeup on. Um, getting up at 5:00 [01:27:40] makes you a much more productive person. You achieve so much [01:27:45] more. And having that time effectively to yourself. Okay, I choose to do exercise [01:27:50] with that time. You can choose to do whatever you want with it. Meditate. Me what’s rubbish TV [01:27:55] if you want to.

Payman Langroudi: How long have you been doing that for?

Nyree Whitley: Oh, I’ve always done sport and exercise, but getting up. [01:28:00]

Payman Langroudi: At the 5 a.m. thing.

Nyree Whitley: Um, probably about 8 or 9 [01:28:05] years.

Payman Langroudi: So before that, you were just a normal person.

Nyree Whitley: I well, no, I probably used to get [01:28:10] up about six. Then I always got up early.

Payman Langroudi: Normal.

Nyree Whitley: I’ve always got up early. Always got up [01:28:15] early. But five has been about eight.

Payman Langroudi: And nine was the a night time person?

Nyree Whitley: Um, yeah. He [01:28:20] didn’t get up as early as me.

Payman Langroudi: Because it was the couples. You see this one early, one late [01:28:25] person trying to avoid each other.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, exactly. He would stay up drinking red wine and I’d [01:28:30] be go to bed reading my book. It’s probably why it didn’t work.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:28:35] been a massive pleasure. Yeah, I’ve. I’ve learnt a lot. I’ve learnt a lot, particularly about your, your your [01:28:40] attitude, the way you think about things. It’s very, very simple, which is nice. [01:28:45] Yeah. Very simple.

Nyree Whitley: Not a complex person. I am what I am what I says. Says on the tin. [01:28:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but it doesn’t. It doesn’t seem like you worry about too many things. You’re quite simple. And [01:28:55] I guess that’s what you’re saying about your younger self. Used to worry about this?

Nyree Whitley: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much for coming all the [01:29:00] way. I know you’ve been trying to organise this for. I think it’s years.

Nyree Whitley: Sorry. It has been ages. Has [01:29:05] been ages. Amazing. Thank you so much.

Payman Langroudi: Bye.

[VOICE]: This [01:29:10] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one [01:29:15] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:29:20] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:29:25] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just [01:29:30] a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say [01:29:35] and what our guests has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did [01:29:40] get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this [01:29:45] with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks. [01:29:50]

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is mind movers [00:00:10] moving the conversation forward on mental health [00:00:15] and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:00:20] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Hi [00:00:25] everyone, welcome to Mind Movers. So as always, I bring the most inspirational [00:00:30] and aspirational guests with me. Georgia meachum is an incredible advocate [00:00:35] for mental health and inclusion. As a deaf individual, she has broken barriers and inspired [00:00:40] many by sharing her unique journey and insights. George’s work focuses [00:00:45] on empowering others to embrace their mental health challenges and promoting inclusivity in every [00:00:50] aspect of life. She’s also an absolute babe. She’s a strong believer that our differences [00:00:55] make us stronger, and she’s here today to share her powerful story and expert advice. [00:01:00] Welcome, Georgia.

Georgia Meacham: Thank you for having me. First and foremost, welcome.

Rhona Eskander: And for those [00:01:05] of you watching YouTube, don’t forget to like and subscribe because I’m really trying to grow it for those who want long form. And [00:01:10] you can see how amazing Georgia’s denim jacket is and how incredible, how incredible that she looks. [00:01:15] So, Georgia, can you share a bit about your journey as a deaf individual and how that’s [00:01:20] shaped your perspective on mental health? I want to get right into it.

Georgia Meacham: Wow. I mean, it’s [00:01:25] such a big question because, um, yeah, [00:01:30] where to begin? I think I’m going to start with the fact that.

Rhona Eskander: You were born deaf.

Georgia Meacham: Right? I was [00:01:35] born deaf, and I had my first hearing aids fitted when I was 16 months old. Sorry, 17 months [00:01:40] after failing to hearing tests. Um, this kind [00:01:45] of became apparent to my mum when she was saying things, and I was only repeating part [00:01:50] of words back, and so she was like, there’s something not quite right. [00:01:55]

Rhona Eskander: Let’s just as a baby, were you crying and things like that, you know?

Georgia Meacham: Yeah, it was just [00:02:00] my mom would be, you know, saying my name, and I just wouldn’t be responding. [00:02:05] So she was there was just. And she’d. I’m the second child. So she was obviously [00:02:10] comparing to my brother, who I’m the first deaf person in the family. So there was [00:02:15] she knew that something was different. Um, but yeah, back to the mental health side [00:02:20] of things. I think I for so long was ashamed and embarrassed [00:02:25] by the devices that literally helped me get by in everyday [00:02:30] life. I wouldn’t be here today without them. And and I think [00:02:35] the point that I started to really embrace them and [00:02:40] realised that actually this is a beautiful part of who I am, and I wouldn’t [00:02:45] be who I am without that part of me. Um, it has helped my [00:02:50] mental health hugely, and I think I’ve [00:02:55] never been happier Because I can now just show up [00:03:00] whether it’s to work things, to social things as myself and not [00:03:05] have to worry about not hearing because people don’t know or not getting the right [00:03:10] help. And yeah, now I speak up for myself and I.

Rhona Eskander: So when the [00:03:15] hearing aid was fitted, um, how did it affect your learning [00:03:20] journey? So did you go to how was school? Did you get bullied? Like talk a little bit through [00:03:25] that.

Georgia Meacham: So there’s always the situation that when you find out your child is deaf, obviously it [00:03:30] was a huge thing for my parents. They were trying to navigate a whole new journey [00:03:35] as well. Um, and, you know, your child can try to learn how to talk, or [00:03:40] they can learn how to sign, or they can try and do both, and [00:03:45] they can go to a deaf school. Um, I believe in the UK there’s 22 deaf schools, or [00:03:50] they can try and go to a mainstream school. And you know, [00:03:55] my parents, obviously wanting the best opportunities for me, thought that going [00:04:00] to a mainstream school and seeing if I could learn how to talk would be the best option. [00:04:05] Um, and yeah, I think it was the best option [00:04:10] because I was pushed, um, [00:04:15] and I had to overcome so many challenges by being [00:04:20] in environments where I’m not people like me aren’t [00:04:25] necessarily thought of, um, and accessibility needs aren’t always [00:04:30] matched. So I’ve always learned how to be adaptable and I’ve. Yeah. [00:04:35]

Rhona Eskander: And did you so did you. Because obviously when I speak to you now, like [00:04:40] your speech is perfect, is that unique to your journey or is that something that, [00:04:45] um, is accessible to people that are born deaf?

Georgia Meacham: It’s actually really interesting because [00:04:50] I do have a bit of a lisp because of my hearing. Um, and [00:04:55] I have been made of made fun of that before, and a lot of people haven’t realised [00:05:00] that the way my speech is, how it is, because I’m deaf. But yeah, I do speak well, I [00:05:05] don’t have a very strong deaf accent, but that’s because I’ve had to work hard, and I think people forget [00:05:10] that I’ve had to work a bit harder than everyone else. I had speech therapy at [00:05:15] lunchtimes from the age of three.

Rhona Eskander: Um.

Georgia Meacham: And, [00:05:20] you know, instead of going out to play with other children, I was with my speech therapist [00:05:25] for half an hour every day at school. So there’s a lot of behind the [00:05:30] scenes that I don’t think people realise that deaf children have to go through to in [00:05:35] order to cope in a mainstream society. Um, so yeah, my speech [00:05:40] is good because I’ve, I’ve worked I’ve worked hard, basically. Um, and [00:05:45] also being in the entertainment industry, I’ve had to work on it even harder. [00:05:50] But something really interesting whenever I meet Voice coaches or dialect [00:05:55] coaches. They can tell straight away from the way I talk.

Payman Langroudi: Georgia, [00:06:00] you know you haven’t got kids, have you?

Georgia Meacham: No I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Georgia Meacham: So not [00:06:05] yet.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. With kids, I always thought that the one thing you can [00:06:10] do for your child is make them confident.

Georgia Meacham: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And with [00:06:15] your disability? Yes. Is that how you refer to the disability? Yeah. [00:06:20] With your disability. Becoming an actress or [00:06:25] an influencer would be, like, one of the most difficult things to do. And yet you had the [00:06:30] confidence to want to be that person. Do you put that down to your upbringing, or [00:06:35] was there some event in childhood that sort of made you think, I’m [00:06:40] going to dominate? I’m going to watch too many. I mean, you could have been an accountant [00:06:45] or a.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Georgia Meacham: Um. Oh, gosh, there’s there’s so much [00:06:50] to that question because I say it and say it again. My parents and my [00:06:55] family. I have the most incredible support system and I think that’s vital if [00:07:00] you are, if you have some sort of difference. Um, because these are the people [00:07:05] that will rally you and be behind you. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So were they overcompensating [00:07:10] and really being behind you more than.

Georgia Meacham: No, I don’t think they were, because [00:07:15] I, I had a fear that I never wanted to be treated [00:07:20] differently. So that’s why I’ve always worked hard. I’ve always pushed myself. I’ve [00:07:25] never wanted that extra help. Um, and [00:07:30] the reason that I fell into acting was because [00:07:35] I could. Forget about. I [00:07:40] could be on a stage and my difference wasn’t a thing. Does [00:07:45] that make sense? And also the the beautiful part of acting is that you can tell [00:07:50] other people’s stories for people that can’t. And I think again, [00:07:55] when when you have some sort of difference, you [00:08:00] rely on those platforms, whether it’s TV, film, we learn so [00:08:05] much, don’t we? We learn about all different disabilities, diversity [00:08:10] through film and TV. And I think that’s something that made me really connect to the entertainment [00:08:15] industry.

Rhona Eskander: Was there any discrimination though? I mean, did people say like, oh no, [00:08:20] we don’t think that she’ll be okay for the role because she’s deaf? You know, did you experience anything [00:08:25] like that?

Georgia Meacham: Well, because I hid it for so long. That’s where the.

Rhona Eskander: And [00:08:30] how did you hide it?

Georgia Meacham: Um, I was taking them out. If I had to wear my hair [00:08:35] up and I was relying on lip reading.

Rhona Eskander: Wow.

Georgia Meacham: Which is why I was [00:08:40] absolutely exhausted every single day. Um, yeah, it [00:08:45] was tiring. I was, like, carrying away every day because I was [00:08:50] trying to hide. If I had say, if I had them in and I had my [00:08:55] hair down, I was so worried that someone would notice them. So I was [00:09:00] just like working three jobs at once, hiding them, trying [00:09:05] to lip read, trying to keep this secret. It was. Yeah, it was exhausting. Even [00:09:10] my agents who were, you know, sending me towards the jobs, they didn’t have a clue. Wow. Um, [00:09:15] yeah. And do you know what? I never like to look back, because obviously [00:09:20] my journey, I think, has made me super strong. And. [00:09:25] Yeah, I’ve lost my track [00:09:30] of thought because.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting thing that it’s something that you can hide and. [00:09:35]

Georgia Meacham: It’s almost an invisible disability.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Georgia Meacham: And that’s why I think it’s so hard for people [00:09:40] that do have invisible disabilities, because you have to tell people about it. [00:09:45] You know, it’s not obvious if you’re.

Rhona Eskander: Wearing the same as mental health. Right. Exactly which is. Hence [00:09:50] why. And I think that that’s still so massively stigmatised. And obviously I’m not one of these people, [00:09:55] but I would also assume that because people don’t understand what it’s like [00:10:00] to be deaf, where they sometimes can see a physical disability, it’s almost like they have more empathy [00:10:05] for things that they can see. And, you know, it just doesn’t get any better. [00:10:10] I watched I don’t know if you’ve seen it, I really recommend it. The Avicii documentary [00:10:15] yesterday. So you guys remember it.

Georgia Meacham: You know what? I really want to watch it. But the [00:10:20] thought of it already upsets me because.

Rhona Eskander: It’s so sad because he was your classic [00:10:25] creative talent that literally loved making music. He [00:10:30] wasn’t driven by fame, he wasn’t driven by money. He just loved making [00:10:35] music. And he was discovered when he was like 18 or 19. That’s when levels came out. Like, you remember that [00:10:40] song. And he grew to this, like astronomical level of fame. And again, [00:10:45] like, it might be a little bit cognisant with Amy Winehouse in a way where they [00:10:50] are such creative people. Someone sees their talent and the person that sees [00:10:55] their talent is the driving force between that kind of commercial capitalist [00:11:00] thing that pushes them and pushes them and pushes them, and when their mental health deteriorates, [00:11:05] in hindsight, they’re like, oh, we just didn’t know. And you [00:11:10] know, and we didn’t know it was that bad. And it’s like, but we keep repeating the same [00:11:15] mistakes. And I think it’s the same with like disabilities. You know, we can all say in hindsight, should have [00:11:20] done that. Shouldn’t have done that. Yeah. We’re all changing. I don’t really believe many people do actually [00:11:25] change because there’s another Avicii and there’s another Amy Winehouse and there’s another celebrity. [00:11:30]

Georgia Meacham: I think a huge part of a huge part of it with these specific [00:11:35] people as well, is that they don’t know how to voice their struggles. They don’t know how [00:11:40] to communicate to their loved ones. This is how I feel sometimes. You don’t know how to communicate [00:11:45] what you’re feeling. Um, so I think that’s why therapy. I’ll go on [00:11:50] about therapy forever, because it’s just great in, just in in order of practising these [00:11:55] types of conversations, role play, you know, pretending your therapist is your close friend and saying, [00:12:00] okay, this is what I’m feeling at the moment. How can you help me? And also [00:12:05] just asking for help. It’s still stigmatised.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes. The vocabulary [00:12:10] of therapy. Yes, I’ve learned so many words from you, just from you, but you just bring them there [00:12:15] in your sort of vernacular.

Georgia Meacham: Yeah, there we go.

Payman Langroudi: And other people.

Georgia Meacham: Don’t have that.

Payman Langroudi: People haven’t got the vocab. [00:12:20]

Rhona Eskander: But that’s the thing. Like talking about being picky like life partner thing. Like for me, it was somebody that had emotional [00:12:25] awareness and emotional intelligence. And that’s very lacking in the healthcare profession because [00:12:30] scientists and very logical people don’t necessarily have incredible. And that’s why [00:12:35] Payman Payman, you do have great empathy as well, but it’s rare, like [00:12:40] empathy is quite rare in our in our in our profession.

Payman Langroudi: I wouldn’t go that far. I wouldn’t [00:12:45] go that far.

Rhona Eskander: Well, rare. It’s not. You don’t think it’s rare? No. I think it’s incredibly rare. Not, I think. Have you [00:12:50] met lots of doctors that have empathy, would you say? No.

Georgia Meacham: Thank you. My granddad was a scientist. [00:12:55] And my mum, who is like me, she’s so sensitive, [00:13:00] so empathetic. We talked to each other about everything. She grew up with her dad. [00:13:05] Who’s this medical scientist? And just the conversations. [00:13:10] They were never on a deep level, and she really struggled with that.

Payman Langroudi: But a scientist is different [00:13:15] to a healthcare worker.

Rhona Eskander: No, I know. I think it’s all very similar. Payman. You’re wrong. Okay. For [00:13:20] example, I went on Shivani’s podcast. Um, before Christmas, I had something [00:13:25] really awful happened to me medically, um, about a few days [00:13:30] before. And Shivani said to me, do you still want to come on the podcast? And I was like, you know what? It’s fine. I’ll just get through it. Probably [00:13:35] didn’t look my best on the podcast, lost a substantial amount of weight because of what I was going through. [00:13:40] Anyways, I was on the podcast clip on TikTok and Talk and someone doctor [00:13:45] something or other. I’m not going to expose them, goes, oh my God, what the hell’s happened to Doctor Rona? [00:13:50] So I commented back, being like, what do you mean? And they didn’t reply. So then I wrote them a message saying, what do [00:13:55] you mean? And I was like, I don’t mean to be rude, but you’ve lost all of your buccal fat. [00:14:00] You’ve got temporal hollowing. Basically tore my face apart, right? And I was like, I was actually [00:14:05] going through something, man, I don’t know, to be honest, cuz it was one of those profiles that didn’t have any pictures. [00:14:10] And then I was like, do you know what? I was actually going through something pretty horrific. I think it’s really important [00:14:15] that we don’t comment on the way people look.

Georgia Meacham: And don’t judge.

Rhona Eskander: Exactly whether they lost weight, put on [00:14:20] weight, whether their face looks different, like it’s not your place, and they’ll be like, oh, now I feel really bad. [00:14:25] Come on Payman, that is such a degree of lack of empathy. The trolls on Facebook, [00:14:30] the forums that that tear down other dentists. I’ve had dentists say to me that they [00:14:35] won’t go on Facebook because of the way that other dentists talk about each other. That is such a basic lack of human [00:14:40] empathy and respect, and that’s what I think. So I’m not having this debate with you.

Payman Langroudi: Of course that [00:14:45] exists. But I’m saying to say that people are people in healthcare. It’s rare that they have empathy. There’s [00:14:50] thousands of of dentists out there.

Rhona Eskander: I’m not saying everyone, but it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Empathy with all their patients. [00:14:55]

Rhona Eskander: They’re not.

Payman Langroudi: Creative. It’s one of the one of the skills of being a good dentist. Is that right? [00:15:00]

Rhona Eskander: So because they don’t pick hence why so many dentists get so many complaints and [00:15:05] so many dentists struggle with selling treatment plans and so many they struggle with the soft [00:15:10] skills. You know that. You know that literally Prav has a course on marketing and how to be empathetic. [00:15:15] You know, I think and people focus so much on I [00:15:20] think, again, we’ve talked about this like the exterior. So for example, in dentistry, they will [00:15:25] focus on being so amazing academically, but not on the patient in front of them.

Georgia Meacham: You know, [00:15:30] empathy is part of personal skills isn’t it. Socialising. And that’s a huge part [00:15:35] of.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And I don’t want to go off on a tangent because we’re talking about, you know, you see it gets [00:15:40] heated between us. If it gets heated, I’m feeling it. Um, but now what I [00:15:45] see, which is so incredible, is that you’re wearing your hearing aid with pride and with [00:15:50] confidence. Massive clap for that. So what was the turning point for you? Where [00:15:55] you were because you were hiding it? So what was the turning point?

Georgia Meacham: I mean, I [00:16:00] think being misunderstood, I think [00:16:05] that it got to a point where I was so fed up of being misunderstood.

Rhona Eskander: Were you?

Georgia Meacham: Oh, [00:16:10] this was only like a year and a half ago.

Rhona Eskander: Wow.

Georgia Meacham: Yeah, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So you were hiding it for that long? [00:16:15]

Georgia Meacham: Yeah. So I hid it from. Because at school, I had to wear my hair up so I couldn’t hide [00:16:20] it. So that was. And just people accepted me. And then when I went to university [00:16:25] and I got the chance to wear my hair down, I was like, oh, I can [00:16:30] redefine myself. I don’t have to be that odd girl at school anymore. So [00:16:35] at university, I started wearing my hair down. And then the more I got to know people, [00:16:40] I was like, oh my gosh, I can’t just suddenly show them my hearing aids because they’ll be shocked [00:16:45] because obviously they’ve known me for so long. So it just became such [00:16:50] a big thing in my head.

Payman Langroudi: Even your closest friends.

Georgia Meacham: A few of my closest friends.

Rhona Eskander: How are you handling [00:16:55] dating?

Georgia Meacham: It was just so big in my head.

Rhona Eskander: And what about dating guys?

Georgia Meacham: Dating? I dated a guy for. [00:17:00] This. Was like my first relationship at university for four months. And [00:17:05] I remember even, like, if he went to hug me, I was worried that [00:17:10] his ear would touch my ear and he would be like, oh, what’s that?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Georgia Meacham: Or sometimes they [00:17:15] make a whistling noise if you go too close to them. So I lived on edge [00:17:20] in this relationship, and even in bed, just as the lights went off, I would quickly take them off [00:17:25] and hide them under my pillow and just hope that he wouldn’t talk to me as we [00:17:30] were going to sleep, otherwise I wouldn’t hear. So it was a lot. And I just, you [00:17:35] know, everything that I do from now on is because I never want anyone to feel like that. [00:17:40] You know, it’s. Life is hard enough already as it is without having [00:17:45] to do these extra things, and not just not being able to show up as just you.

Rhona Eskander: So [00:17:50] what was the turning point like? Did something significant happen where you were like, fuck this, I’m not going to do this.

Georgia Meacham: I’m seeing a bit more representation [00:17:55] on TV and film.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, because there.

Payman Langroudi: Was that other deaf people.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, there [00:18:00] was a girl also.

Georgia Meacham: Sorry, a huge thing to point out. Not just deaf people or seeing [00:18:05] hearing aids. It’s young people. Mhm. Because you [00:18:10] see you see loads of grandparents.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Georgia Meacham: Yeah. [00:18:15] Older people with hearing aids but you don’t necessarily see young [00:18:20] people. Mhm. And I didn’t have, I didn’t know one other person until like [00:18:25] two years ago that um was under the age of 30 and had hearing aids.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:18:30] now do you now looking into it, is that is the evidence that there are lots of people hiding? [00:18:35] Must be.

Georgia Meacham: Do you know what the. I’m so thankful. [00:18:40] Like when I think about it, it makes me shiver. I don’t know why I’m getting emotional. Probably I’m on my [00:18:45] period. Yeah. But, um, just like the.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, I’m getting emotional. [00:18:50] I’m getting emotional. It’s okay. It’s not. Sorry. I knew I’d get like this.

Georgia Meacham: No, [00:18:55] it’s just because I had such a lovely message. Um, I think it was only the other week, and [00:19:00] it just made me realise. Oh, wow. This is why I’m doing it again, a girl.

Rhona Eskander: Oh. [00:19:05]

[TRANSITION]: Bless you. Sorry.

[TRANSITION]: That’s alright.

[TRANSITION]: I should have [00:19:10] warned you. That’s deeply emotional.

Georgia Meacham: Um. No. I had a younger girl message me. And do you know [00:19:15] what? I could read out the message.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Go for.

Rhona Eskander: It. Go for.

[TRANSITION]: It. You know.

Georgia Meacham: People actually take the time to [00:19:20] message and share their story. And how brave is, [00:19:25] is that this is strangers that are messaging me, and I just I think everyone’s [00:19:30] so brave. And I think that’s what really gets me because it’s so hard for, for some [00:19:35] people just to even write it. Writing. The fact that I’m [00:19:40] giving some people this little bit of confidence to share it, even if it’s just with me.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:19:45] now you think sharing, being vulnerable, sharing something about yourself that [00:19:50] you might think is a weakness?

Rhona Eskander: No, I get.

Payman Langroudi: Gets makes that [00:19:55] thing more acceptable to you? Is that.

Rhona Eskander: No. It’s just like I think, as George has said, like [00:20:00] shared experiences are really powerful. When I, when I did my 2024, um, [00:20:05] look back and I said, like, basically it’s been a bit it was a really tough year [00:20:10] for me. Like the amount of people.

Georgia Meacham: That was beautiful, by the way.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Thank you. But I feel [00:20:15] like I’m always highlighting your thing. I’m like, yes, yes. I’m like, oh, she’s gonna think I’m crazy.

Rhona Eskander: I had a lot of people [00:20:20] message me saying, like, I just want you to know, like, it’s so refreshing because everybody [00:20:25] writes their highlight reel and how amazing their life is. And you actually were really honest and real and, like, [00:20:30] on the outside, like, you wouldn’t even think that you’re going through that stuff. So I just want to thank [00:20:35] you.

Georgia Meacham: Especially because you had such a great year as well that people probably [00:20:40] only see you and see, oh yeah, she’s the founder of the new dentist clinic, so they probably [00:20:45] don’t even think that you would even possibly go through these types of [00:20:50] things.

Rhona Eskander: I think it’s that’s the thing like with the Vichy as well. Like people were like, he’s the richest, most famous DJ [00:20:55] of his time. Why do you have depression? Why do you have anxiety? Do [00:21:00] you know what I mean? It’s just classic.

Payman Langroudi: But do you think there’s a an element of oversharing, [00:21:05] like, is that a thing you worry about?

Georgia Meacham: I think [00:21:10] oversharing is I think it’s not oversharing. [00:21:15] It’s positive toxic.

Payman Langroudi: Toxicity.

Georgia Meacham: Yeah. [00:21:20] It’s being too positive.

Rhona Eskander: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Positive. Um. Toxic positivity. [00:21:25]

Georgia Meacham: Yeah. Toxic positivity.

Rhona Eskander: I can’t bear toxic positivity and explain it. Explain it.

Georgia Meacham: So I think some people that overshare. [00:21:30]

Rhona Eskander: So.

Georgia Meacham: Tend to.

Rhona Eskander: So toxic positivity is where people [00:21:35] are like, I don’t want to talk about bad things, and I don’t want to see bad images, and I don’t want to put any.

Georgia Meacham: Necessarily [00:21:40] that. But just being like, so.

Rhona Eskander: Motivated, just be like driven. It’s all in your [00:21:45] head. You’ve got to think positive. You’ve got to be abundant. And to be honest with you, I’m going to be completely [00:21:50] honest. I actually cut out quite a lot of people like that last year. And when I say cut out, it’s not the cut [00:21:55] out where I was like, you’re out of my life. I was like, do you know what?

Payman Langroudi: You just want to see less of it.

Rhona Eskander: I want to see less of them as well, [00:22:00] because what I felt that is that that my feelings weren’t being validated. And what I actually found was [00:22:05] they were unable to hold space for me. So what I mean by that is, is that my [00:22:10] discomfort made them too uncomfortable. So it was easier for them to be like babes. Just write down [00:22:15] affirmations. Life is great. Don’t put that down. And I’m like, I’m grieving something. I have [00:22:20] literally lost something. That’s what happened to me last year. And you’re telling me that I can’t be [00:22:25] upset and it’s all in my mind. And I manifested this like, no, please, toxic positivity [00:22:30] doesn’t work for me. It just doesn’t.

Payman Langroudi: But then you know how people say cut out negative people around you [00:22:35] because they bring you down. Do you subscribe to that idea?

Rhona Eskander: Absolutely as well. I think that’s [00:22:40] I think I think there’s like there is a balance. What I like to see is, is that the human, the human. [00:22:45]

Georgia Meacham: Imperfect.

Rhona Eskander: Human experience is flawed. It is wonderfully beautiful. And [00:22:50] it is intrinsically complicated as well. There are highs and there are lows, [00:22:55] and life is not a constant. And what I like to do is, is I like to feel every emotion. [00:23:00] I like to feel happy. I like to feel sad. I like to cry. And I try to [00:23:05] celebrate. So I try now not to suppress anything. So people that think that it’s okay and [00:23:10] normal. Never to be sad or never to experience discomfort. You’re not [00:23:15] having the authentic human life experience. That’s how I feel.

Georgia Meacham: I think as well you can deal with more [00:23:20] things if you are able to cope with feeling or different emotions, because [00:23:25] then if you lose someone.

Rhona Eskander: You can process.

Georgia Meacham: It. You know how to get it out, you [00:23:30] know how to deal with it. Whereas people that don’t show all these different emotions. Yeah, they’ll [00:23:35] struggle even more.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, yeah. Have you found the message?

Georgia Meacham: I found the message. Sorry it took me ages. [00:23:40] Um. Okay, so [00:23:45] this is by a younger girl saying hello. I just wanted to make. I just [00:23:50] wanted to let you know what a difference you’re making by opening up and sharing. You’re showing that it is [00:23:55] possible for young to be young, confident and strong whilst wearing visible hearing [00:24:00] aids, and it has really helped me to accept mine. I refused to wear them for a [00:24:05] long time and when I did, I kept my hair styled in a way where you couldn’t see them. See [00:24:10] them? I was told I needed a full in ear mould for one of my ears, and I genuinely [00:24:15] cried for months because I knew it would be much harder to hide. Since following [00:24:20] you, I have not only accepted it, but worn my hair back and spoken openly about my hearing [00:24:25] struggles, which practically has helped me so much. My friends now ask [00:24:30] me which would be would be best for me to sit on which side. Or if we’re in a noisy cafe [00:24:35] or restaurant, if they can. If I can hear them, I know I’ll be one in millions [00:24:40] of messages that you’ll receive each day. But just in case you do see it, I wanted you to [00:24:45] know the difference you’re making to everyday people and for life. For people like me. [00:24:50]

[TRANSITION]: I love that it’s beautiful.

Georgia Meacham: I stumbled over a few words, but.

Rhona Eskander: So when [00:24:55] you I mean obviously you’re having a huge impact on people around you now, but the representation was [00:25:00] your real turning point. And then you were like, I’m now going to wear this with pride. Yes. How did [00:25:05] it change the quality of your life?

Georgia Meacham: Hugely. As I said, especially my mental health, because [00:25:10] I’m just able to show up for things and actually enjoy my jobs [00:25:15] rather than worrying about all these other things. And and also [00:25:20] asking for the help is okay to ask for help. I was so ashamed [00:25:25] of if someone treated me differently or if, Um, [00:25:30] or if I had to actually ask someone to repeat something more than twice. [00:25:35] But now I’m like, it doesn’t matter.

Rhona Eskander: But even now, today, you were like, guys, can you come closer to [00:25:40] me?

Georgia Meacham: There we go. I wouldn’t have dared.

[TRANSITION]: Done that last year. Struggle. Like, you know, I. [00:25:45]

Georgia Meacham: Would have just been. And also, I think as well, I was just so used to struggling that I didn’t know [00:25:50] any other way. And then I found out I can. [00:25:55] There is this other way of life. And also, all the things I’ve achieved [00:26:00] have been without the full help that I’ve needed. Imagine all [00:26:05] the things I can do now with the right help. And I think that really [00:26:10] spurs me on as well.

Payman Langroudi: I think Rhona talks about sometimes for women, the 30s [00:26:15] are when they really sort of find themselves.

Georgia Meacham: And yeah, I think as well I just [00:26:20] turned 32. So when I kind of started to speak about it, [00:26:25] I was 31. So yeah, I think, I think that probably was a turning point. Coin. I was a bit more comfortable [00:26:30] in myself and feeling a bit more stronger. So then I felt that that was [00:26:35] the the right time.

Rhona Eskander: Well, I always say, and I think. Did you see the Demi Moore speech? [00:26:40] Okay, so I have to read it to you. Okay. The Demi Moore speech, because I think it’s so beautiful [00:26:45] and so amazing.

Georgia Meacham: Do you know what it is? It’s just so relatable.

Rhona Eskander: It’s just. Okay. [00:26:50] So obviously normal. There were so many things about this that I thought were incredible. [00:26:55] And she says, um, this [00:27:00] is something that I saw that I thought was so good, so beautiful. Demi Moore’s [00:27:05] speech about being told that she was just a popcorn actor is another symptom of Hollywood’s [00:27:10] women expire over 35 gaslighting. By relegating [00:27:15] beautiful women to roles that are solely about sex appeal. But there is nothing [00:27:20] sexier or more provocative than a woman realising her worth taking the reins and [00:27:25] turning the scars of her lived experience into a into a lightning bolt of sheer, unstoppable [00:27:30] radiance. Women over 40. Rise up. And I just really, really, really related [00:27:35] to that because I told you this before. Like, I do feel like the worth of women is [00:27:40] put so much on their youth and their fertility, and it’s like this sex appeal, but [00:27:45] there is nothing sexier than a confident woman that knows her worth. Like the amount [00:27:50] of women that I see, I don’t know, like he’s looking at that. I really do, but then.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:27:55] fully understand.

Rhona Eskander: You’re.

Payman Langroudi: Projecting. I brought it up [00:28:00] in the first instance. Yeah. So I think of that as the Princess Di thing.

Rhona Eskander: Oh, yes. [00:28:05]

Payman Langroudi: You said Princess Di when she died was much more attractive than the 19 year old, you know, [00:28:10] on the on the side with Charles when she got married. Right. Because of the confidence. [00:28:15] Yeah. I fully, fully get that.

Georgia Meacham: And also Prince Di, she was kind and she was [00:28:20] warm and.

Payman Langroudi: She was herself.

Georgia Meacham: She did show vulnerability. Yeah. And so it [00:28:25] made her more relatable. Yeah. And therefore she was more of [00:28:30] an inspiration because people felt connected to her 100%.

Payman Langroudi: The face you saw was [00:28:35] it was something around, you know, pretty privilege. Yeah. Insomuch as you’re, [00:28:40] you’re you’re sort of strong as a as a pretty girl, you’re [00:28:45] you get a lot of benefit from that sexual power. You get a lot of benefit from that from age [00:28:50] 19 to 39 or whatever, whatever number you want to put on it. Loads [00:28:55] of benefit. So yeah, as as you lose that benefit, it hurts, but [00:29:00] you’re getting loads of benefits. Some 19 year old girl can can really move things around because of how [00:29:05] pretty she is. She doesn’t have 19 year old guy can’t at all.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, but I think it’s different, right. [00:29:10]

Payman Langroudi: Because I important to bear that in mind.

Rhona Eskander: No, because I think the fact is, is that that 19 year old woman that [00:29:15] looks the way she does, she doesn’t actually know what to do with that. And that’s the thing that you’re forgetting. [00:29:20] And she’s easily open. She’s open to manipulation. She’s open [00:29:25] to the to the Harvey Weinsteins and the Jeffrey Epstein’s of the world because she doesn’t know what to [00:29:30] do with that. Whereas I’m saying that if you, which I truly believe, like, women, still look amazing and [00:29:35] beautiful on that physical aspect in their 30s, they have a different kind of confidence because they are beautiful and they know what [00:29:40] to do with it, and they recognise that their worth isn’t just about the physical. And I think that [00:29:45] the danger comes for women that just put the importance when I and I know that you model [00:29:50] as well. Um, so I’d love to hear your thoughts. But when I was in my, when I was a teenager and up until [00:29:55] Leeds, I used to get scouted for modelling. And my mom.

Georgia Meacham: Of course you did.

Rhona Eskander: And my mom, well, a lot of doctors wouldn’t [00:30:00] agree. Lost my buccal fat and temporal whatever. Anyway, um, but my mum used [00:30:05] to be a model. She. I told you, she’s six foot one, green eyes, etc., and my mom was like, I really don’t want you to do it because I do [00:30:10] want you to focus on dentistry. And I think that for me, a really [00:30:15] important lesson was learned. Number one, I had awareness of how insecure I [00:30:20] was at the time, and I couldn’t handle criticism. I criticism. I couldn’t handle [00:30:25] the need to lose weight. But the other thing for me was like, I don’t want my worth to be around [00:30:30] the way that I looked. And I think the danger with modelling is, is that you’re literally your [00:30:35] face and your body becomes a declining, um, [00:30:40] asset. You know, it’s basically devalues as you get older because that’s what people, unless [00:30:45] you become an older model. But essentially I was like, you know what? If I become a dentist or a doctor, I know [00:30:50] that I can help people. And it’s not just about the way I look, it’s about the way I make people feel. And that was a really important [00:30:55] thing for me that I understood and knew. And I don’t know how you feel because I know that you do modelling as well.

Georgia Meacham: I [00:31:00] mean, there’s a lot from what you said about pretty privilege, because that’s [00:31:05] a huge topic. And I think, I think it’s okay to use [00:31:10] what you have, but in the right way. For example, I feel [00:31:15] my modelling career has obviously given me a platform, but I think it’s about I think a lot of people, [00:31:20] they use their privilege, Whatever it whether it’s money, whether [00:31:25] it’s pretty privilege, irresponsibly, responsibly. You know, a lot of people, [00:31:30] a lot of people are super wealthy or they’ve got this huge platform. [00:31:35] They’re an A-list celebrity. But what do they do? Do they do enough charity work? [00:31:40] Do they do enough.

Rhona Eskander: Talking to disagree with you for someone, for one aspect?

Georgia Meacham: Okay. And then [00:31:45] we’ll go back to the modelling.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Because one thing that it says you said responsibly and payments that irresponsibly [00:31:50] because I would agree like some people are using, they would say they’re empowered but they’re using [00:31:55] both happen. Yeah. But the thing is like something like OnlyFans, right. For example. So they’re using the body in the way that [00:32:00] they look and they say, well, who cares? Like I’m here now to exploit men. I’m [00:32:05] rich. I’m living in my penthouse in Battersea or whatever it is, because I’m [00:32:10] using the way that I look to get money. I don’t know if I fully agree, if I’m honest with [00:32:15] that, because I don’t know if that is using it the way you look for purpose.

Georgia Meacham: But I there’s, [00:32:20] you know, modelling I would say that’s using your what you have in a responsible way because [00:32:25] it’s a job. You earn money. You’re not harming anyone. Onlyfans. [00:32:30] Again, controversial. I would never do it because I don’t think [00:32:35] it’s always 100% responsible in a sense that other [00:32:40] people can be affected by it. Um, it can do damage. [00:32:45] Um, it can do damage to society and the younger generation. [00:32:50] Whereas I think if you’re doing something that’s not harming anyone, that’s okay. [00:32:55]

Rhona Eskander: It’s fine. Yeah, I get it, I get it. I think.

[TRANSITION]: A bit.

Payman Langroudi: Judgemental of both of you though, lol. [00:33:00] Insomuch as you know why. Why shouldn’t a woman be a sex worker of [00:33:05] any sort?

Rhona Eskander: I’m not saying that they shouldn’t be a sex worker.

Payman Langroudi: Whether it’s OnlyFans.

Georgia Meacham: Do whatever you want to do, [00:33:10] but as long as it’s not harming your family, as long as it’s not.

Rhona Eskander: Harming your mental health.

Georgia Meacham: Or harming your [00:33:15] mental health. And if you’re a sex worker but you’re the if you’re a sex worker [00:33:20] and the person that you’re, um, one of your clients, for example, [00:33:25] is married. You’re affecting another family and situations like that. [00:33:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but if you work in a, if you’re a chef and you’re one of your clients is overweight, you know what [00:33:35] I mean? It’s not, it’s not, it’s not it’s not down to that person’s. It’s not their lookout.

Rhona Eskander: I think we’re getting into [00:33:40] such a big moral dilemma here.

Payman Langroudi: My point my point is, I wouldn’t have thought two people like you would come down so [00:33:45] judgemental on OnlyFans because.

Rhona Eskander: No, no, no, I’m not judgemental. Do what you want. I’m sure there’s [00:33:50] going to be a Dental niche. Can you imagine? Can you imagine if there’s like a dentist girl that suddenly does like dental porn [00:33:55] and there’s people that are into it? Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, can you imagine there are people that [00:34:00] pay for that. Can you imagine?

Georgia Meacham: It’s like it’s like the the the new girl, Bonnie Blue. I think [00:34:05] it’s awful how much media attention she’s getting.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, but that was the thing.

Georgia Meacham: Because doing [00:34:10] so much damage.

Rhona Eskander: I mean.

Georgia Meacham: It’s it’s actually horrific.

Rhona Eskander: There is there’s also a difference between Bonnie [00:34:15] Blue and Lily Phillips because people say that, like when people look at Lily Phillips, because Lily Phillips obviously is trying to break [00:34:20] a world record. She slept with 100 guys in one day and now she wants to do 1000.

Georgia Meacham: I almost don’t want to talk about it because they’ve [00:34:25] had so much attention.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I know. I know it’s true, but I’m going to I’m going to just make a point here that they then [00:34:30] someone did a documentary and then, oh, guys, who’s the woman that used to be on the Daily Wire? Payman. [00:34:35] You know, Candace Owens. Candace Owens also like, went on like an interview and basically [00:34:40] said to, like, I don’t think you’re happy. I think that basically she’s like, why are you doing it? And she was like, I’m [00:34:45] not doing it for the money. And she was like, but why are you doing? She’s like, but it’s really nice to wake up and be able to like, buy a cup of [00:34:50] coffee and not think about it. So you’re doing it for the money like, no, no, no, I’m not. And she was like, because, like, I have enough money now. She’s like, [00:34:55] so why are you doing. You’re doing it for the infamy. And the thing is then I think I’m like.

Payman Langroudi: What’s wrong [00:35:00] with.

Rhona Eskander: That? That’s fine, that’s fine. But also when it comes down to it, like when you question further [00:35:05] and further and she she ended up like bursting into tears at the end of the documentary. Arguably [00:35:10] people were like, well, she just exhausted because she slept with 100 guys one after another, or if [00:35:15] she actually emotionally broken. And I think that begs the question because she also admitted that [00:35:20] when you go on those platforms, you’re playing a role. You’re an actress in a way. The [00:35:25] thing is about Bonnie Blue. I think the problem was, is that people thought, because she was proudly saying, [00:35:30] women are lazy if they don’t have sex with their husband and they deserve to be cheated [00:35:35] on.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just the social media game, right? I mean, there’s a woman, there’s a woman sitting, [00:35:40] but there’s a woman sitting in Morgan Stanley, right?

Georgia Meacham: But that’s not that doesn’t make it okay, even if.

Rhona Eskander: It’s.

Georgia Meacham: Okay. [00:35:45] Because the effect that it’s having on the younger generation, like imagine [00:35:50] your your son like thinking that that’s okay. And watching that video and learning [00:35:55] from that.

Rhona Eskander: Correct.

Payman Langroudi: That generation are so savvy to it. You guys are now old. That’s what it is. [00:36:00] That’s what it is. That’s what it is. That generation is so savage.

Georgia Meacham: Like, oh [00:36:05] my God.

Payman Langroudi: Back to.

Georgia Meacham: Modelling. I always think about like my children and.

Payman Langroudi: They’re [00:36:10] so savvy to it. They’re so digitally native. They get all of this stuff, you know like I know. [00:36:15]

Georgia Meacham: But we can still make some Make some changes.

Rhona Eskander: But I don’t want to give them any more airtime. That’s been concluded. [00:36:20] We’re not.

Payman Langroudi: Modelling. Back to.

Rhona Eskander: Modelling.

Georgia Meacham: We were talking about the modelling. What was your what was your point?

Rhona Eskander: So [00:36:25] my point was, is that I never wanted to.

Georgia Meacham: Because you didn’t want to be judged by.

Rhona Eskander: So [00:36:30] it’s not even that, but also I recognising that it was a depreciating asset. Because if we’re going to [00:36:35] measure beauty by youth, naturally, it’s very rare that you see people go into modelling like later [00:36:40] on in life, like sustain a career from when they were in their heyday, 17 up until 60 [00:36:45] or whatever.

Georgia Meacham: Me um, my aim was never to be a model. I was very academic at school, [00:36:50] went to a good university, studied English and that was never the [00:36:55] aim, but fell into it. And I thought, do you know what this is going to add? Life experience? Yeah, [00:37:00] to me and probably make me a better person. And I’m going to use this opportunity. [00:37:05]

Payman Langroudi: Were you?

Georgia Meacham: Uh, I got scouted when I was 18. [00:37:10] Yeah. University time. So I came out of university and I was like, I’ll just give it a [00:37:15] go for a few years. A few years became eight years later nine.

Rhona Eskander: Did you enjoy it? Overall.

Georgia Meacham: 100%. [00:37:20] I got to work with some of my close friends every day. I got to travel [00:37:25] and when I mean travel, I went to places like Iceland. Um, can’t [00:37:30] think of the.

Rhona Eskander: Catwalk or.

Georgia Meacham: Commercial.

Rhona Eskander: Were you catwalk or commercial?

Georgia Meacham: Both. Okay, I’ve [00:37:35] got a bit of a baby face, but obviously I’m six foot as well.

Payman Langroudi: And did you handle the rejection of castings. [00:37:40]

Rhona Eskander: And all of that? Like did.

Payman Langroudi: You. Because I can’t.

Rhona Eskander: Imagine.

Payman Langroudi: I can’t imagine you being very good at that.

Rhona Eskander: I was terrible.

Georgia Meacham: Well. [00:37:45]

Rhona Eskander: You’ve seen ugly all the time.

Georgia Meacham: Go on. You’ve just seen how sensitive I am. Yeah. [00:37:50] I cry like a baby. So for me, I think my, [00:37:55] my mum was like, are you going to be able to handle the rejection side of things because you take everything deeply [00:38:00] and you feel deeply, but I think it’s it’s the way [00:38:05] you respond to rejection. I respond to rejection now as it [00:38:10] was an opportunity for more growth. It wasn’t right for me. I think it’s just about the way Also, [00:38:15] you can learn that, you can learn how to respond to rejection. [00:38:20] So I think anyone can learn it, even if at the beginning you say, oh, I couldn’t go into that job [00:38:25] because I can’t handle rejection well, you can learn how to handle.

Payman Langroudi: I found interesting on this.

Georgia Meacham: Subject, isn’t. [00:38:30]

Payman Langroudi: It? Of course it’s a muscle in itself.

Georgia Meacham: It’s a muscle. There we go.

Payman Langroudi: But what I found interesting about this question that you’re saying [00:38:35] is that models then self-select for people who are interested in them, not for their looks, [00:38:40] you know.

Rhona Eskander: What do you mean? I understand that.

Payman Langroudi: Question. If you’ve got a model, you’re talking to a model about something [00:38:45] that isn’t to do with her looks. She’s much more interested in that conversation than all [00:38:50] the conversations about the way she looks. Yeah. So they end up they end up selecting themselves for those [00:38:55] conversations, finding those people more interesting. I might find models interesting because they’re pretty. Yeah, [00:39:00] they find people who are not interested in looks interesting. You know, it’s [00:39:05] like the ones I’ve spoken to that generally. That’s what ends up happening to them.

Georgia Meacham: But sorry, [00:39:10] Rayna, back to your the second point that you that you made and leading [00:39:15] off your point, um, that for me, I was only ever going. To use [00:39:20] modelling to do what I wanted to do, which was.

Payman Langroudi: Acting.

Georgia Meacham: To [00:39:25] act or to use my voice in the right way. And so for me, modelling [00:39:30] has helped me with that. Um, so it’s a blessing. And I’ve always [00:39:35] made sure that it hasn’t defined me.

Rhona Eskander: And did did they know about the hearing [00:39:40] aid?

Georgia Meacham: No.

Rhona Eskander: Do you think that in the fashion industry [00:39:45] that they would discriminate? What did you see? Any models with disabilities? [00:39:50]

Georgia Meacham: No. Um, you know, when I started, which was 9 or 10 years ago, the [00:39:55] beauty standard was ridiculous. Shocking, wasn’t it? You know, you had to be size [00:40:00] six or size eight and you had to be six foot, whereas [00:40:05] now that’s like too tall. But, um, so I think I could, I could [00:40:10] just about fit in that little, little box without showing my hearing aids. Um, [00:40:15] so I just feel like I felt enormous pressure, and I [00:40:20] just felt this huge tension, and I felt like I couldn’t compromise [00:40:25] by showing them because the box was so small.

Payman Langroudi: Have you felt have [00:40:30] you found you’ve now got the opposite happening? Are you getting jobs because of the diversity? Diversity [00:40:35] inclusion kind of agenda?

Georgia Meacham: Actually interesting you ask I actually just signed [00:40:40] with an exclusive agency. Who who you know, [00:40:45] their, their main thing is representing people with disabilities.

Rhona Eskander: I love [00:40:50] that.

Georgia Meacham: And for me, at first I wasn’t sure because I feel [00:40:55] like you can make a bigger impact, um, in, in a [00:41:00] normal agency by being.

Rhona Eskander: The only one. Yeah.

Georgia Meacham: Because if you’re just [00:41:05] part of an agency that’s just focuses on disabled talent, [00:41:10] you’re kind of expanding the bridge, expanding that gap more [00:41:15] and more. Because you’re you’re compartmentalising yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting way of looking at it.

Georgia Meacham: Yeah. [00:41:20] So I was like, no, I want to be the only one in a, in a normal mainstream modelling agency [00:41:25] so I can make more of a difference. But now I’m just going to be part [00:41:30] of it all to, to spread myself more and to, you know, [00:41:35] I’ve got this, this little goal of the year. And I’m just going [00:41:40] to put it out there just in case it happens of I only got my ears pierced about [00:41:45] a year and a half ago, two years ago, because I didn’t want to draw any [00:41:50] attention to my ears. And, you know.

Payman Langroudi: That’s.

Georgia Meacham: Something.

Payman Langroudi: That these sort of details, [00:41:55] you know, you never think about.

Georgia Meacham: There we go. And, you know, I remember looking at all these other girls and my friends, [00:42:00] they’d always wear these lovely earrings. And I thought, oh, that’s a shame. I’ll never I [00:42:05] just accepted oh, I’ll never I’ll never be able to have earrings [00:42:10] or, you know, have that kind of glamorous element.

Rhona Eskander: But now people [00:42:15] are even decorating their hearing aids.

Georgia Meacham: Yeah, but now I make sure I wear the biggest [00:42:20] earrings and the boldest earrings. Yeah. To kind of make up for that lost time. And I’d [00:42:25] love to get a jewellery campaign where my hearing aid is visible, [00:42:30] because I’ve never seen that.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I’d love that.

Payman Langroudi: Have you played a deaf person? [00:42:35] Pardon? Have you ever played a deaf person?

Georgia Meacham: No. Because obviously [00:42:40] I wasn’t.

Payman Langroudi: So recent that you’ve come out so.

Georgia Meacham: Recently that I’ve kind of come [00:42:45] out. There’s a really interesting what you just asked. You said, have [00:42:50] I ever played a deaf person? I think something that needs [00:42:55] to be worked on in the TV [00:43:00] and film industry is that so many stories when it comes to [00:43:05] a disabled person, the story is based around their Their disability. And [00:43:10] I think we need to start changing that narrative. That their disability is just it’s just [00:43:15] there. So it’s more normal. And the storyline is about their love life [00:43:20] or.

Rhona Eskander: About.

Georgia Meacham: Anything else.

Payman Langroudi: The same with with black actors or. [00:43:25]

Rhona Eskander: But we know. But we know that as well. I mean, I’ve talked about.

Georgia Meacham: This.

Rhona Eskander: Being being Middle-Eastern. It’s always everything. [00:43:30] We’re always terrorists. Do you know what I mean? Like always, you know, that’s what I mean.

Georgia Meacham: The more changes we do [00:43:35] for for one group of people, it helps everyone else. It’s a ripple [00:43:40] effect.

Rhona Eskander: I think it’s also like that.

Georgia Meacham: We’re all bloody different, aren’t we?

Rhona Eskander: That’s different. That’s where also like, things like [00:43:45] Disney need to take massive responsibility and they thank God Disney changed the story of, [00:43:50] um, the Disney princess being saved by the prince and the Disney princess looking a certain way. And then it [00:43:55] was like, do you know what? Mona’s going to own her own island and she ain’t going to have a boyfriend and she ain’t going to be [00:44:00] saved. And it’s like, that’s changing now, you know, like the storylines are changing because [00:44:05] what impacted me as a child, which I’m sure is with you, like, I literally believe Disney and I got into university [00:44:10] and I was like, where’s the prince? Literally, you know, like he’s going to come save me on the horse, I get picked, [00:44:15] I get chosen, you know, because I’m going to be so beautiful like the Disney narrative. So I think that’s really [00:44:20] important when I think about it. I’m like, I can’t think of a single Disney film or Pixar where you have somebody with a disability [00:44:25] is there. The disability is literally braces. Like, I remember that from Finding Nemo, you know? I mean. [00:44:30]

Georgia Meacham: Do you remember that that girl, she her Finding.

Rhona Eskander: Nemo was the braces headgear. [00:44:35] That was her disability. Oh my.

Georgia Meacham: Gosh. Wow. Like, that’s so different.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. So I think that that’s really [00:44:40] important.

Georgia Meacham: So yeah, times are changing. Slowly, slowly.

Rhona Eskander: Um, the other thing that I want to know [00:44:45] is, um, what role do you think that interpreters and technology [00:44:50] play in creating a better mental health outcomes for the deaf community?

Georgia Meacham: Um, [00:44:55] a huge part because there’s we don’t have enough interpreters, [00:45:00] sign language interpreters. And if you think about if we’re having a therapy session and [00:45:05] Myself or someone else has to have a sign language interpreter. [00:45:10] Um, sorry if there isn’t a sign language interpreter [00:45:15] available. That means that either a family friend or a [00:45:20] family, a family friend, a friend, or a family member has to be there in [00:45:25] order to help with the communication barrier. And that means that [00:45:30] that person that’s attending therapy may not be able to talk about certain topics because they’ve [00:45:35] got that family member there or that friend member. Um, and I can sort of relate [00:45:40] in the same way that when I, whenever I’ve been a hospital, which [00:45:45] has been a lot um, I’ve always had my mum there because sometimes [00:45:50] I don’t always hear things the first time round. And especially with medical terminology, [00:45:55] it’s really, really.

Payman Langroudi: Hard enough when you can hear.

Georgia Meacham: Exactly. And it’s really important that you’re [00:46:00] hearing everything because it’s important advice that’s being given. So I’ve [00:46:05] always had someone else there, my mum and and sometimes when I’ve had, say, operations and certain [00:46:10] things like that, I have to I’ve had my hearing aids taken out. Um, [00:46:15] so it’s even more important that I’ve always had a person there. So, um, yeah, [00:46:20] that’s why I’m really family is a huge.

Payman Langroudi: If you haven’t got them in. Do you hear nothing?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. [00:46:25]

Georgia Meacham: No. So I’m moderately to severe, severely deaf in both ears. So [00:46:30] I do have a bit of hearing. Hearing aids just amplify sounds. Um, [00:46:35] I think there’s a misconception that as soon as I put my hearing aids in, I can hear, like, [00:46:40] you guys. Yeah, that’s not the case. They just amplify, um, I [00:46:45] struggle, say, if I’m in a cinema because it’s technology to [00:46:50] technology, sometimes you get weird sounds. Um, [00:46:55] and that’s why when we came in this room today, I could hear. Yeah, something [00:47:00] different to you guys. Yeah. So, yeah, there’s lots of Misconceptions, I think. [00:47:05] Um, and yeah, so I do hear a bit, but I have to be close to you. I have to make sure I can [00:47:10] see your lips if it’s a dark room or late at night. I really struggle, like on holidays with [00:47:15] friends, when it starts to get late at night and everyone’s, like, chatting by the pool, I feel like I [00:47:20] don’t really get chats as much.

Rhona Eskander: What about nightclubs? Hook-ups [00:47:25] like no, no. Is it no nightclubs? Like dance clubs? Yeah. Hook-ups no, no [00:47:30] I can’t.

Payman Langroudi: I can’t hear nightclubs.

Rhona Eskander: No. So so like when there’s really loud music, [00:47:35] how is it for you?

Georgia Meacham: Hard. Hard?

Rhona Eskander: Do you actually not enjoy it? Do you know what I mean? [00:47:40] Like, you know, if there’s like a big day.

Georgia Meacham: Dj, sometimes if something’s too loud, I take my hearing [00:47:45] aids out. So it’s. Yeah, because also, you’ve got to remember, I’m not used to hearing loud sounds [00:47:50] all the time so I can get, like, a sensory overload. Um, so it’s really important that I have [00:47:55] those quiet moments. So in a nightclub, if I have my hearing aids in for the full time, I [00:48:00] would, I would just be knocked out. So even at the cinema, like sometimes [00:48:05] I have to lower the volume on my hearing aid because it’s just too loud to me because I’m not used to it. So. [00:48:10]

Rhona Eskander: So with regards to dating, obviously you’ve had relationships hook-ups [00:48:15] that we can get onto that. Have you had any discrimination? Like [00:48:20] do you feel like there have been. And obviously if those are those people, they’re not even worth [00:48:25] your time. But have you had any experience of that or not has been like [00:48:30] overwhelmingly positive, or has there been times where, like someone finds out or they see and they’re like, you feel [00:48:35] like them sort of pull back?

Georgia Meacham: Surprisingly, it’s been really positive.

Rhona Eskander: Good. [00:48:40] That’s amazing.

Georgia Meacham: I remember my second partner. Lovely. [00:48:45] Lovely guy. Um, I kind of. I [00:48:50] think we were on the third week of dating, and I was thinking, why? I need to tell him [00:48:55] soon. Soon. And just in case he thinks I’m ignoring him or, you know, we’re in a difficult situation. [00:49:00] And so I so I really, you know, I motivated myself. [00:49:05] I was like, okay, is this the right time to do it? Is this anyway? We were in the car and [00:49:10] I was like, okay, this is the moment to tell him. And I told him and it was [00:49:15] such a huge moment and I was thinking, oh my God, what’s he going to reply? How’s he going to reply? Is he going to have a [00:49:20] big reaction to this? And he turned around and he said, oh, I already [00:49:25] knew.

Rhona Eskander: Mhm.

Georgia Meacham: I saw it. Um, one morning you, you [00:49:30] just moved your hand and I saw it and. Yeah. So I already knew, I [00:49:35] couldn’t believe.

Rhona Eskander: It. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: He was so chilled about [00:49:40] it and um.

Georgia Meacham: Yeah. So I think I’ve been really lucky in that sense. Not lucky. [00:49:45] Um, yeah. It’s just. Yeah. No one’s had a big reaction about [00:49:50] it again. It’s. It was always me. It was just always a big thing for me.

Payman Langroudi: Something. [00:49:55] Something you said on Shivani’s podcast sort of struck me. It was [00:50:00] or something. She said something. The question around, you know, who’s who’s got permission [00:50:05] to ask questions like this? I mean, I don’t know. I mean, in this [00:50:10] room, I’ve had people and asked them questions and then maybe later on thought maybe I shouldn’t have [00:50:15] even asked that question. Is that is that is that a thing for you?

Georgia Meacham: I think it’s [00:50:20] the more questions you ask whether it’s, you know, how can we help or [00:50:25] those kind of questions.

Payman Langroudi: I think now in this room, of course, in this room, of [00:50:30] course, you’d say that would be good for you to get this message out, right? Yes. But in [00:50:35] in life, day to day life, when someone finds out or if you know, is there [00:50:40] an.

Georgia Meacham: You know what? I really encourage people to ask whatever questions they want or they [00:50:45] think because also some questions, no question is [00:50:50] going to be wrong. And and I will. I think we should encourage [00:50:55] people for being brave enough to even ask a question about [00:51:00] someone’s struggle or.

Rhona Eskander: The thing is, it’s interesting that you say that. So one of my best [00:51:05] friends, she’s a psychotherapist and they were having a, um, [00:51:10] they have like group therapy sessions as part of their training because she’s training to do it. [00:51:15] And one of the, um, other candidates was like talking about pronouns [00:51:20] because it’s really important for them to be addressed by they. Yeah. And one [00:51:25] of the other therapists in the group was like, oh, but, you know, like, I’m just really curious to know [00:51:30] about the whole pronoun argument. And the other person was like, not offended, [00:51:35] but they were like, it’s not my job to educate you. There is enough information on the internet about why [00:51:40] pronouns are important.

Payman Langroudi: Why are they important to you?

Rhona Eskander: And and.

Payman Langroudi: It’s.

Rhona Eskander: A different question. No, because [00:51:45] I think I think that person was like, what’s the history of it? Like how did it come about? Like asking a lot of questions. [00:51:50] Okay. But the person that wanted to be.

Georgia Meacham: Addressed really positive because they’re interested [00:51:55] and.

[TRANSITION]: They.

Rhona Eskander: Want to know the way the person because the person was like, you’re being lazy because you’re not doing [00:52:00] the work to actually, like, research it. Like you’re almost being like, ignorant. Do you know [00:52:05] what I mean? Whereas there is enough now out there for you to just go up and Google it or like, [00:52:10] watch YouTube on it or something like that. So I do think people’s views are different.

Payman Langroudi: It’s in the nuance [00:52:15] though. I mean, if she just didn’t like her, maybe that’s the way she would say it.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I think like I think it really is [00:52:20] deeply individual. Like, I once had a person that I knew and I genuinely was asking, [00:52:25] um, a question. Um, they were of Islamic faith. And I was asking a question [00:52:30] because there was another influencer of Islamic faith, faith that was like presenting [00:52:35] toxic masculinity and talking about the religion, like as a whole. And [00:52:40] I asked that person, but I think I had offended her, and I didn’t mean to, but I actually wanted to [00:52:45] ask her. I was like, this guy says this like, what would be your response to it? And she was like, that’s [00:52:50] such a minority. And I was like, oh, because to me it looks like the majority, because of the amount of engagement he’s [00:52:55] getting on his post. And I really, genuinely wanted to be educated. I wasn’t doing it to offend, but [00:53:00] that person took offence. And then I, like you, was like, oh God, maybe I shouldn’t have asked that. Do you see? I mean, I just quietly do my own research, [00:53:05] you know?

Georgia Meacham: But then I think it’s better to ask and get a response of do [00:53:10] your own research. You shouldn’t ask that or do your own research. Because the more we stop [00:53:15] people from asking certain questions, the more they’re going to stop asking [00:53:20] certain questions about other topics.

Payman Langroudi: And yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So I want [00:53:25] to ask you.

Georgia Meacham: Restricts.

Rhona Eskander: Can you share.

[TRANSITION]: Why are you doing that.

Rhona Eskander: Because I’m like looking [00:53:30] and I’m like genuinely interested in this. Can you share a moment when you felt truly heard [00:53:35] and understood in the metaphorical sense, despite the challenges that you faced? [00:53:40]

Georgia Meacham: I think I’m just going to keep it simple, not too [00:53:45] deep. Um, but I think just, you know, as I said, those those messages [00:53:50] that I’ve received from everyday people, people from all walks of life, [00:53:55] Um. Um. That keeps me. Sorry. What was your question [00:54:00] again?

Rhona Eskander: So can you share a moment when you felt truly heard and understood despite [00:54:05] challenges?

Georgia Meacham: I think it’s when I’ve just told, when [00:54:10] I started to tell people. Oh, by the way, I’ve [00:54:15] known you for this long. But did you know that I wear two hearing aids and then just have no [00:54:20] sort of reaction? I think by by them not having a reaction, [00:54:25] I felt really seen. Yeah. Which is kind of.

Rhona Eskander: Like the guy [00:54:30] you were dating, and he was like, I already knew.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Like, I didn’t even have to bring it up because, like, who cares kind of thing.

Georgia Meacham: Yeah. [00:54:35] And, um, I think sometimes by not having [00:54:40] to have certain conversations with people, um, because [00:54:45] they already know you feel more seen in that way because you’re sometimes [00:54:50] you feel like you’re constantly having to speak up for yourself, advocate for yourself. So sometimes when you don’t have [00:54:55] to do it, you feel the most seen.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Georgia Meacham: Which is a bit of a weird way to think about it. [00:55:00]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. No, I, I understand, that’s beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: Are you driven by you wish [00:55:05] there was someone like you when you were younger?

Georgia Meacham: 100%. I have a [00:55:10] a picture of myself as a younger girl on my mirror. Wow. And I always [00:55:15] think, wow, it would. It would have changed my life. And there’s another thing [00:55:20] that if I had learned sign language at a young age, um, [00:55:25] it would have definitely helped me accept my identity more.

Rhona Eskander: Why did you choose not [00:55:30] to?

Georgia Meacham: Um, because I only had the kind of opportunity when I was young [00:55:35] and my parents thought, let’s teach Georgia how to speak first and see how she gets on. [00:55:40] And then I actually just never had the other another opportunity to.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. [00:55:45]

Georgia Meacham: Which is a bit crazy. Um, and. Yeah, if, if I, if [00:55:50] I could sign, I would have then been able to communicate with other deaf children, [00:55:55] and I would have just felt like I belonged somewhere. I think as well, as [00:56:00] you said earlier, I speak so well. I cope so well that [00:56:05] I felt I wasn’t deaf enough and [00:56:10] I wasn’t hearing enough. So I think the fact that even [00:56:15] though I was coping so well, I was in the middle of [00:56:20] both of these worlds, so I felt more isolated.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:56:25] know it sounds really weird, and I’m going to be a little bit controversial here. Like, obviously you’re [00:56:30] ridiculously beautiful. You’re six foot, you’re slim, you’re blonde, [00:56:35] your blue eyed, your stunning confident. Yeah.

Georgia Meacham: Can you, can you marry.

Rhona Eskander: Me? I [00:56:40] propose, I propose. But do you get some people that are deaf [00:56:45] and resentful? So what I mean is they consider that you might have a degree of pretty privilege [00:56:50] where they’re like, well, it’s all good for her. For her. She might be deaf, but she’s actually, like, white and beautiful [00:56:55] and tall. Do you know what I mean? And then they’re like, she doesn’t really get it. Do you ever get that?

Georgia Meacham: There’s [00:57:00] always. There’s always going to be those people.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Georgia Meacham: And, um, [00:57:05] I will continue to do what I do because.

Rhona Eskander: So you do get some of that because [00:57:10] I know I do.

Georgia Meacham: You know what I would say? It’s like 1% of people, which again, [00:57:15] maybe is surprising. Um, but it [00:57:20] nor that 1%.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Georgia Meacham: Because as I said, even if I just help [00:57:25] two people in my lifetime, I’ve done enough. Yeah. So and I think as well [00:57:30] it’s about showing up and just being just by being here today [00:57:35] and showing my hearing aids. I guess to a certain extent that already [00:57:40] is helping so many people.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah for sure.

Georgia Meacham: So yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Okay. [00:57:45] And I want to know, I want to know for [00:57:50] listeners who may not be deaf but want to support family, friends or colleagues [00:57:55] in the community. What’s the best way to show empathy and understanding? You said already. Like ask questions [00:58:00] so we know that. Is there anything else?

Georgia Meacham: Yes. So make sure you speak [00:58:05] clearly.

Rhona Eskander: And loudly.

Georgia Meacham: And loudly, but not too loudly, because that just [00:58:10] sometimes comes across as passive aggressive. Maybe would make someone [00:58:15] like myself feel a bit scared. Yeah. By the way, you’re talking [00:58:20] to me. So yeah. Speak loudly. Clearly. Don’t cover your lips. Okay, [00:58:25] so I know when people talk, sometimes they use just make sure your lips are on [00:58:30] show and that the environment that you’re in, it’s slightly lit, like today is perfect. I can see you [00:58:35] both. Um, and if there’s background noise, just try and accommodate that person. [00:58:40] You know, it’s such a simple question. Where would you like to sit? Do you need if [00:58:45] someone’s deaf in one ear? Oh, do you want me to sit that side so it’s easier or this side. It. So [00:58:50] it’s very, very simple. But it’s just things that I don’t think we think of enough.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:58:55] feel like we’ve been a bit guilty of the sort of situation about just talking about [00:59:00] your deafness. You know, we’ve done that during this part. We’ve talked [00:59:05] about other things.

Rhona Eskander: But the thing is, I know, but the thing is, is I came with that intention only in [00:59:10] the sense that I feel that I obviously know.

Georgia Meacham: Why do you feel guilty [00:59:15] about it?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Why do you feel guilty?

Payman Langroudi: Because, you know, because of what you said. You know, because almost. [00:59:20]

Rhona Eskander: I’m sorry. Can I just interject there? I don’t know, I might be wrong, but I think almost the fact that we are having [00:59:25] a conversation about it, a normal conversation, is exactly the purpose of why [00:59:30] we are having this. Because, as Georgia said, you know, people might feel like they want to shy away [00:59:35] from it or they want to they don’t want to talk about it. They don’t want to understand it.

Georgia Meacham: And also it’s [00:59:40] it’s okay to not know, like things or not, I, [00:59:45] I came across a completely mute person. So someone that doesn’t speak at [00:59:50] all. And obviously that’s someone that’s part of my community. And I panicked [00:59:55] because I didn’t know how to communicate with them. So I think the more we just have conversations [01:00:00] and you ask people and. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I think, [01:00:05] you know, I think that this is.

Georgia Meacham: A great I think you’re right in a sense that, you know, there [01:00:10] becomes this thing where you don’t want to be like, I don’t want my deafness to define me [01:00:15] exactly. But also it’s a huge part of me.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, absolutely.

Georgia Meacham: And it’s something that [01:00:20] I never wanted to define me for so long that now I’m like, it’s new.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:00:25]

Georgia Meacham: Gosh.

Payman Langroudi: Like.

Georgia Meacham: It’s about bloody time. [01:00:30]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. No. I’m so proud of you. And one thing that I [01:00:35] do want to ask you is, is that if you could leave our listeners with one powerful message about mental [01:00:40] health, what would it be?

Georgia Meacham: So there’s a quote that I love. [01:00:45] Um, and it can be taken in so many different ways, which I think is why [01:00:50] it’s so beautiful. The more you glow, the more others glow back.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I love that. [01:00:55]

Georgia Meacham: And I think it’s whether you’re being vulnerable. So if I’m [01:01:00] vulnerable, it will encourage you to be vulnerable too. Um, and it’s, [01:01:05] it’s about inviting everyone to shine in their own [01:01:10] unique way.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Georgia Meacham: And it’s a ripple effect, isn’t it? Yeah. So the kinder you are to [01:01:15] someone, they’re more likely to be kind back. Um, yeah. [01:01:20]

Rhona Eskander: I love that. And that’s why when I met you, it was love at first sight. There we go. [01:01:25] I can get on my knee like positive, positive. Just beautiful [01:01:30] energy. And you’re such an amazing advocate and amazing woman.

Georgia Meacham: It means a lot.

Rhona Eskander: And I’m so grateful [01:01:35] you could be here today.

Payman Langroudi: Susana. Huh?

Rhona Eskander: Yes, but, Georgia, you didn’t come to [01:01:40] the party of the century. Tell him how he missed out.

Georgia Meacham: Supported.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And, um, that’s when I [01:01:45] saw Georgia. And obviously, like, being such a powerhouse and such a beautiful woman. You know, everyone was like, who’s that [01:01:50] tall, leggy blonde?

Georgia Meacham: Well, I was more like, where’s this Queen Rhona.

Rhona Eskander: That.

Georgia Meacham: Everyone’s talking [01:01:55] about?

Rhona Eskander: So, um, and then we had a night out together in London with the girl that organised my party [01:02:00] and so on, and we just got on really well and just really connected, I think, like Soft Souls [01:02:05] connect. And that was star sign. Are you.

Georgia Meacham: Sagittarius?

Rhona Eskander: Oh, yeah. You said that. But yeah, I’m a Pisces, so I’m a [01:02:10] typical what star sign are you Taurus? Oh, that explains everything. Is it.

Georgia Meacham: March? [01:02:15]

Payman Langroudi: No.

Rhona Eskander: I’m March. Oh, my God, I really don’t like Tauruses. It’s really sad for me. [01:02:20]

Payman Langroudi: I’m more on the Knightsbridge end of Taurus.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, I love that. Okay, I love [01:02:25] that.

Rhona Eskander: Um, okay. Well, thank you, everyone for listening. Uh, Georgia, what is your Instagram [01:02:30] so people can look it up, please.

Georgia Meacham: Just simple Georgia Meecham. [01:02:35]

Rhona Eskander: So please have a look. She’s amazingly inspirational and aspirational, as I said. And please don’t forget to [01:02:40] like and subscribe to the YouTube channel. Bye everyone!

Payman Langroudi: This pod is brought to you by Mini Smile Makeover, which is a two day anterior [00:00:05] composite hands on course led by Depeche Palmer. Loads of people [00:00:10] do A-line, bleach, bond, and there’s plenty of people who find the aligning bit [00:00:15] and the bleaching bit more comfortable, but the bonding bit a lot less comfortable. [00:00:20] And the bonding bit is the bit. Is the sugar on top of the case? My advice is practice, [00:00:25] but if you want to go on a course, the best course I know is called Mini Smile Maker all the way from [00:00:30] class three, four, five to diastema closure, composite veneers, the Basics [00:00:35] and the advanced Monochromatic Polychromatic Restorations mini Smile makeover. If [00:00:40] you’re interested, let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:45] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:50] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:00:55] Your hosts Payman [00:01:00] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome [00:01:05] Sharon Walsh onto the podcast. Sharon is a dentist who had a pretty conventional [00:01:10] first half of her career, and then a pretty unconventional second [00:01:15] half, where she has had several issues around associates, [00:01:20] um, alcohol misuse, GDC [00:01:25] complaints and has now come out the other side of it all and, [00:01:30] um, wants to talk about it, wants to talk about her journey. Massive pleasure to have you, Sharon. [00:01:35] Thank you. Thanks for coming all the way. Um, also a contemporary [00:01:40] of our friend who’s episode three on this podcast, one [00:01:45] of my best friends who went to university with him, I think, and put us in touch. He did? [00:01:50] Yeah. Sharon, we’ll get to the the whole enchilada, [00:01:55] you know, as the as the conversation goes, goes forward. [00:02:00] Well, sometimes I’ve got like a burning question that I just want to ask. And if I don’t ask it and I’m thinking [00:02:05] about it the whole time, but when in a moment of adversity, you [00:02:10] sort of alluded to me that you now have sort of the tools [00:02:15] to manage adversity better than before in [00:02:20] a moment of adversity. What is the way to get through the other side? What [00:02:25] are the first 2 or 3 steps? [00:02:30]

Sharon Walsh: I think you have to learn to to come into acceptance. I [00:02:35] think that you have to begin to trust [00:02:40] yourself within and be patient. And I think [00:02:45] one of the most important things, the most important thing for me, Payman, is to learn to live in the moment [00:02:50] because there is no past and there is no [00:02:55] future. There’s that’s just here and now. And if I can keep [00:03:00] practising and being here and now with with what is then [00:03:05] the mind quietens. And so everything’s [00:03:10] okay.

Payman Langroudi: The acceptance first [00:03:15] of your situation.

Sharon Walsh: You have to accept because [00:03:20] if you resist what’s going on, [00:03:25] you just create more suffering. And by not resisting it and by letting [00:03:30] a life almost flow through, then it [00:03:35] is what it is.

Payman Langroudi: So, Sharon, you had a practice of your own, a private practice? [00:03:40] Yes. Where was that lead?

Sharon Walsh: No, it was near Rochdale. Rochdale. In the Pennines. Nice. [00:03:45] Yeah. It was.

Payman Langroudi: Give me the flavour of that practice. What were things [00:03:50] like before things started going wrong for you?

Sharon Walsh: Well, I took the practice [00:03:55] on. It was a shed, and I did the whole place out from the floor upwards, [00:04:00] literally. And it was beautiful. And [00:04:05] I think I created a, I created [00:04:10] a safe space for people. Patience. I know a lot of patients said to me they didn’t think it was [00:04:15] like going into a dentist’s surgery. So like, I’d have water and coffee in the waiting [00:04:20] room. And before it was fashionable.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it was still [00:04:25] probably still not fashionable. Apologies.

Sharon Walsh: No, it’s all [00:04:30] right, but I did. I had, you know, I just tried to treat people like I would want to be treated. [00:04:35]

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Sharon Walsh: And you know I yeah [00:04:40] I loved it and I just think it was a warm welcoming space.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:04:45] what kind of size was the practice. How many dentists. How many nurses. How many.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah [00:04:50] it was just little Payman. It was um, [00:04:55] the end of a row of terrace with a chops. And, [00:05:00] uh, was it.

Payman Langroudi: Just yourself working there?

Sharon Walsh: No, there [00:05:05] was a. Yeah, an associate too. And I had two hygienists. Yeah. [00:05:10]

Payman Langroudi: And the atmosphere, how would you how would you sort of categorise the sort of the work atmosphere. Was it very [00:05:15] friendly and.

Sharon Walsh: It was it was sweet and it was very difficult. [00:05:20] It was very difficult with the associate. Um, [00:05:25] I think that he held a lot of resentment [00:05:30] against me from the minute that I came in. So. So he [00:05:35] was.

Payman Langroudi: Existed. He was there before you came in.

Sharon Walsh: He’d been there a long time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The incumbent? Yes. [00:05:40] So you bought it, and then it didn’t feel good from the beginning.

Sharon Walsh: It felt difficult with [00:05:45] him. From the from the word go? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: What was his bugbear like? If you had to [00:05:50] strawman man. His argument. Like what? Make it make his case for him. What [00:05:55] would he say?

Sharon Walsh: I think he’d been there a long time. I think he thought it [00:06:00] was his. He was a man’s man.

Payman Langroudi: And you came in with ideas. [00:06:05]

Sharon Walsh: And I came in with ideas. And I wanted to do great dentistry. [00:06:10] And I think that deep [00:06:15] down, he really resented that. So it was always difficult. But, you know, [00:06:20] it worked clinically. And at that time I was married with two young children, [00:06:25] and I had a mum who was on her own. My dad had passed and [00:06:30] her mother in law, who was on her own too. So it was it was hard. You know, [00:06:35] I it’s hard being a mom and a wife and then owning a business. Of course. [00:06:40] And then, you know, working in it. Clinically, it’s juggling [00:06:45] all those all those things.

Payman Langroudi: And as far as the as the dentistry itself, [00:06:50] what kind of dentist are you or were you back then? What [00:06:55] kind of work did you do or didn’t you do?

Sharon Walsh: I was a conscientious [00:07:00] dentist. I’m absolutely passionate about dentistry and I’ve never lost my passion for [00:07:05] it, like in my early days, restorative. And I learned with [00:07:10] some of the best. And then I went on to be a member of the Bso’s. [00:07:15] Oh, really? So I knew Roy Hixon really well. Oh, really? Yeah. And then [00:07:20] I kept going back and back and back every year to the, um, [00:07:25] the weekends that they did with Bill. And, you know, some of the really [00:07:30] great, um, daddies of dentistry in the modern era. And [00:07:35] so I found that, you know, when I learned about occlusion, the boring stuff that made [00:07:40] me a good dentist does.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. And then in the [00:07:45] in the latter years, well, my dad came to work with me, with me and he used to do the prosthetics.

Payman Langroudi: He’s a dentist. [00:07:50]

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. He was. Yeah. I worked with him for the first seven years of my career, and [00:07:55] he came to work, just did the prosthetics. I was never interested and didn’t really understand it.

Payman Langroudi: Dentures. [00:08:00]

Sharon Walsh: Yeah, yeah. And then he died. He died really suddenly. So [00:08:05] he left me cases to do. And I really didn’t really know what I was doing. And [00:08:10] then about 3 or 4 months after he died, I came across John Beresford. Who [00:08:15] was just one of the most wonderful human beings I’ve ever met. [00:08:20] And I went to hear him speak down at Schottlander. Yeah. [00:08:25] And I went on his course and I was mesmerised. Payman.

Payman Langroudi: For those who don’t know him, [00:08:30] very bespoke, sort of set up teeth in a natural way. Yeah. [00:08:35] The way the patient used to look when they were younger, that sort of thing. Right.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. He’s just about. [00:08:40] He’s real. He’s a he’s a true gentleman. He’s real about [00:08:45] life. And he, um, [00:08:50] what he taught me was, was to look at patients as [00:08:55] human beings. And, you know, I think it’s very difficult when you’re in practice, you know, you put. Why [00:09:00] did you have to put up so many walls and defences? And it’s hard [00:09:05] sometimes to look at another as a human being. And he made me [00:09:10] do that. And he made me realise that not having teeth is actually a physical disability [00:09:15] and creates a lot of problems [00:09:20] and a lot of people’s lives. So when you start to look at clients [00:09:25] in that way, it changes the whole way you practice. So that’s what.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:09:30] I mean, I, I stopped practising in 2012 and [00:09:35] I found you only really realise what you loved about it [00:09:40] when you stop.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What was that for you. For instance, I found I was [00:09:45] much more interested in the conversations, the people than I was in the teeth. The treatment plans, the [00:09:50] Meccano bit of it. How about you? When you stopped, did [00:09:55] you crystallise what aspects of it you really loved?

Sharon Walsh: I [00:10:00] didn’t want to stop. I was in the prime of my career, but [00:10:05] health took over, so I [00:10:10] didn’t have a choice.

Payman Langroudi: What did you miss about dentistry, though?

Sharon Walsh: What [00:10:15] do I miss now about it? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What aspect of it? See, I’m very happy not to [00:10:20] being a dentist. Very happy not practising. But I really miss the people part. I really do. [00:10:25]

Sharon Walsh: Yeah, I understand that, Payman. I miss the connection with people. And [00:10:30] I miss the challenge of it, to be honest with you.

Payman Langroudi: Problem solving? Yeah. [00:10:35] Clinically?

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. I was one of those people, you know, you came in, I could sit and [00:10:40] I’d look in the mouth, and within a few moments I could see from [00:10:45] A to Z. So my biggest challenge was like stopping and saying, right, [00:10:50] stop and now go A, B, C, D and plan it properly. [00:10:55]

Payman Langroudi: Um, what were you like as a business owner, as a sort of staff motivator [00:11:00] or that kind of person? Were you good at that or not? I think I [00:11:05] found.

Sharon Walsh: It quite hard. You know, I think it’s being a boss is the most loneliest [00:11:10] thing in the world. And, you know, everybody thinks that you’re making, [00:11:15] um, so much more money than them and that you’re just, you know, when you’re not there, you’re [00:11:20] gallivanting around and and they all want a bit of you and however much you [00:11:25] do as a boss, I found people just want more and more and more. There’s never a it’s like [00:11:30] you can never do enough. So I don’t know if I really got the [00:11:35] the lesson about being a good boss. I remember the stuff you said to me, oh, you’re so lovely [00:11:40] and you’re such a good boss, but I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [00:11:45] definitely that loneliness element that you mentioned. And I think however touchy [00:11:50] feely a business is, however happy a business is, there are moments where [00:11:55] it becomes an us and them between management and team. Yeah, that certainly happens. [00:12:00] You know, over a period of time that’s going to happen sometimes. And I found in [00:12:05] those moments are the moments that I value having partners the most. [00:12:10] And you know, in those moments I didn’t have a partner. I could imagine that being very, very lonely. [00:12:15] It was.

Sharon Walsh: Very lonely. I mean, my ex husband was a lawyer, [00:12:20] so contract and employment. So, you know, he could come in on those areas that [00:12:25] I absolutely had no clue about. Um, which is what [00:12:30] I wanted to touch on, really, when you asked me about the GDC.

Payman Langroudi: Because let’s talk [00:12:35] about how this all started going wrong for you, because it sounded like you were in a private practice [00:12:40] where you liked your work, liked your patients, your patients liked you. How [00:12:45] did it go wrong?

Sharon Walsh: Um, I’ll tell you the [00:12:50] day. It was February the 4th, 2017, and the associate handed his noticing.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [00:12:55] you remember the day?

Sharon Walsh: Yeah, I remember where I was. I was having my I was having my [00:13:00] nails done. Go on. He sent an email through, [00:13:05] and my first thought was, thank God. And [00:13:10] from that moment onwards, I [00:13:15] don’t know, something inside me knew that I was. Something inside me knew that my [00:13:20] life was going to change. And it did. [00:13:25] And from that moment, the practice began to get [00:13:30] quiet. My patients weren’t coming in, and [00:13:35] it began to become obvious after a very short period of period of time that there [00:13:40] was stuff going on behind the scenes, like communication to patients that [00:13:45] he was going through him and the receptionist, that everything [00:13:50] was being planned. And. So [00:13:55] it was really destabilising. [00:14:00]

Payman Langroudi: So he left and you [00:14:05] found suddenly the books were also becoming quieter at the same time.

Sharon Walsh: I [00:14:10] found that he ended his notice and he took garden leave for three months, and [00:14:15] he went four miles down the road to a supposed friend and colleague who took him in. [00:14:20]

Payman Langroudi: And a bunch of your patients ended up in the new practice?

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. [00:14:25] Because he was telling everybody. So. And when you work [00:14:30] in a village and you get around really quickly.

Payman Langroudi: Good and bad. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. [00:14:35]

Sharon Walsh: So.

Payman Langroudi: Were you already like in a financial [00:14:40] crisis point? Because losing an associate itself is an expensive thing and [00:14:45] even the best of times, but losing an associate and losing a bunch of patients with [00:14:50] them, that can really hurt a practice.

Sharon Walsh: It did.

Payman Langroudi: So did you feel financially pressured [00:14:55] to?

Sharon Walsh: Uh, not at first. You [00:15:00] know, Payman, when you have a nervous breakdown and your whole nervous system blows up and [00:15:05] you feel like you’re dying, the last thing on your mind is money. I [00:15:10] couldn’t stand up. I couldn’t sit down, I couldn’t eat.

Payman Langroudi: I was what was causing that problem. [00:15:15] How did it initiate? Was it. Was it? I mean, this is an important question. [00:15:20] Were you on the edge of a breakdown anyway before [00:15:25] this happened? Or was this this event itself [00:15:30] the cause of the breakdown?

Sharon Walsh: I think this was the was the catalyst [00:15:35] for it. And nobody’s ever asked me this before, and I haven’t, you know, like I sometimes pray [00:15:40] on it and I say, why is this happened? Why? I [00:15:45] was going through.

Payman Langroudi: Your head before, you know, when, you know, rather than the crisis [00:15:50] point, what was going through your head that this I’m going to lose the business. What was the what was [00:15:55] the sort of, you know, what main problem?

Sharon Walsh: I think that I started to go into panic mode because I [00:16:00] thought, how am I going to cope with 1500 people on my own and then go home and be [00:16:05] a wife and a mum and keep everything going? Um, and I [00:16:10] just panicked. I think I just went into total and utter panic and [00:16:15] I couldn’t come out of it. Um, and I interviewed [00:16:20] people and I did take somebody else on, and he lasted about three days. It was [00:16:25] just awful. He came in and sat in my surgery and everything started like the chair [00:16:30] broke on the first day and It’s like oil started pouring out on the [00:16:35] floor from the chair and he couldn’t use the hand pieces. And I’m like, oh, God. It’s just, um. [00:16:40]

Payman Langroudi: And where were you then? When when it when it finally hit, you were [00:16:45] at home in bed. Is that how it was? Where were you? How were you feeling? [00:16:50]

Sharon Walsh: I carried on for three months, and, you know, I had. I took [00:16:55] on a new manageress, and she was doing a very best to, you know. Call [00:17:00] patients, bring them back in. Who [00:17:05] knows? I think it’s. It [00:17:10] was just meant to be underpinning [00:17:15] everything. I have a deep inner search. And I think when when you’re [00:17:20] born with that, when you’re born with the question that underpins everything of what is the meaning and [00:17:25] purpose of all of it, then you are. I think I [00:17:30] had to be totally and utterly smashed to to [00:17:35] begin to taste life in a different way. So I don’t [00:17:40] know who does know why. You know, why do these things? Why does it happen? I [00:17:45] mean.

Payman Langroudi: How does it feel?

Sharon Walsh: How did it feel when [00:17:50] I had the breakdown? It’s [00:17:55] a feeling of being totally and utterly [00:18:00] lost. Smashed, not able to function. You [00:18:05] can’t eat. You can’t drink. Well, you can’t talk. [00:18:10] Hardly. You can’t sit. You can’t stand. It’s [00:18:15] revolting.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:18:20] must be tough.

Sharon Walsh: It was.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:18:25] what happened next? You were stuck in that situation.

Sharon Walsh: I [00:18:30] am. My ex took control very quickly [00:18:35] and after three months I went to the doctors and I fell in to [00:18:40] the doctors and she gave me. She put me some antidepressants and she said, come back the next [00:18:45] week. They didn’t even hardly touch me. And within [00:18:50] two weeks he gave my practice away for a pound.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:18:55] were still married at that point.

Sharon Walsh: He gave the practice away [00:19:00] for a pound payment to a nurse who was working there as a locum nurse.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:19:05] were there debts? Was that the problem?

Sharon Walsh: No.

Payman Langroudi: Why did you do that?

Sharon Walsh: Because [00:19:10] he couldn’t cope. And he’d lost work, too. He’d. You know, his work had [00:19:15] reduced at the university, and he was ten years older than me. He was looking to retire. And, [00:19:20] I mean, I was happy to carry on. I would have carried on until I dropped, probably. And [00:19:25] I think he panicked, and he just. He gave it away. [00:19:30]

Payman Langroudi: How did he manage to do that without your consent?

Sharon Walsh: Because [00:19:35] I was in no fit form to to do anything. [00:19:40] And he told me that legally, if you [00:19:45] can’t work for a period of two weeks, that it’s it’s illegal to keep working. [00:19:50] And I don’t know if that’s correct, but that’s what he told me at the time. [00:19:55] And so this woman and her, um, [00:20:00] avaricious, greedy partner took it. Um, [00:20:05] and that was it. And I just broke more and [00:20:10] more. And the next thing I know, I was starting to drink gin and tonics. [00:20:15]

Payman Langroudi: I bet.

Sharon Walsh: And [00:20:20] one gin and tonic became two.

Payman Langroudi: And were you and your husband separated at [00:20:25] this point, too, or not quite yet.

Sharon Walsh: No, I mean, this was only early on. This was like [00:20:30] May 2017. So the associate had left. I’d had a, you know, another guy [00:20:35] come in that hadn’t worked and he’d given the practice [00:20:40] away. I just didn’t know what to do. I knew in my heart that it’s like, what? What [00:20:45] the hell are we going to do? You know, I’d I’d put my everything into [00:20:50] this place. Made it beautiful. Spent probably the best part of 300 [00:20:55] grand on it that I did myself. Wow. And [00:21:00] I just thought, well, you know what? I’d go back and work in the NHS. [00:21:05] I didn’t want to do that because it nearly killed me working in the NHS. We all know [00:21:10] what it’s like. Yeah. Um, [00:21:15] so I just. I had to accept [00:21:20] where I was, I guess. But I started drinking. And the [00:21:25] thing is with alcohol Payman is that there’s an invisible line. And [00:21:30] once you cross it, you are in, um, [00:21:35] you’re in serious trouble.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:21:40] how long was that going on for? Was it very quickly [00:21:45] that you fell into that?

Sharon Walsh: Uh, I think it was quite quickly that I fell into it. Yeah. [00:21:50] And then, um, Martin got me admitted [00:21:55] into hospital till I stopped. And at that time, I worked really [00:22:00] hard. And it was, you know, I, I was just struggling to [00:22:05] hang on. But I’ve got such a strong will inside [00:22:10] and a strong faith that I just went with it. And by the end of the [00:22:15] three months, they consultants had you fit to go back to work. So I [00:22:20] came out and I did. I went back to work. I went to went to work for another corporates. Between [00:22:25] March 2018 and November and I started working five [00:22:30] days a week in the NHS. Wow.

Payman Langroudi: That must have felt very different.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah, [00:22:35] well, it was.

Payman Langroudi: The years of being in private.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. Back to like, 20 odd people [00:22:40] a day being treated so horrendously by the management. Just, [00:22:45] you know, I mean, I think the corporate world is just I think it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Improving, [00:22:50] though. I think it’s improving a lot.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. I don’t know because I’ve not been in it for five years. But [00:22:55] it was they’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Realised they’ve realised the most expensive thing is losing an associate.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. You [00:23:00] can’t treat people the way that you treated. You know, you can’t treat people like that.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s very [00:23:05] site dependent as well. You know the particular branch that you’re in sometimes, you know, what [00:23:10] I found with the corporates is the practice manager. And the area manager [00:23:15] are the two most powerful people in the organisation. And if you [00:23:20] happen to have a bad combination of practice and engineering manager in that particular [00:23:25] location that you’re in. Everyone’s life can be ruined by that, and [00:23:30] vice versa as well if you have a brilliant ones. I’ve seen some very, very, very happy, happy [00:23:35] branches and sad branches in the same corporate, same business. [00:23:40] And you’d expect it, you know, the 600 branches. It’s going to be both types of directors. [00:23:45] Sure, but the dentist is less important. The associate [00:23:50] is less powerful than in an independent situation I found. [00:23:55] So were you drinking? The drinking had stopped at this point. Or were you [00:24:00] undercover drinking?

Sharon Walsh: Um, well, my husband [00:24:05] left me, and he went to go back to. He took my little girl and he went to go back and live in Manchester. [00:24:10] So I was working and going home to a big empty [00:24:15] house, and I was drinking, like, four cans of gin and tonic at night. [00:24:20] Passing out. Waking up in the morning. Going to work. Not eating. Coming [00:24:25] back. I managed to function for about eight months.

Payman Langroudi: That’s. That’s a reality [00:24:30] for more of us than we want to admit to. Sometimes [00:24:35] there’s a there’s a number of people functioning alcoholics. [00:24:40] Right. That’s what that is who you know, just and I guess the way it [00:24:45] works, I mean, I’ve never really, really understood been there myself, but but the way I understand [00:24:50] it is if you have a heavy night and then you go to work, work is [00:24:55] so hard that at the end of work you just want to drink just to the fact that you [00:25:00] got through it and that cycle repeats.

Sharon Walsh: It is it’s like [00:25:05] a to begin with. It’s it’s just a cycle. And I guess [00:25:10] the reality is when you for me going back to an empty home without [00:25:15] my husband and my kids there and knowing that the business that I loved [00:25:20] was ten minutes up the road and it wasn’t mine anymore. I [00:25:25] just, I drank. Why? Because it numbs the pain. [00:25:30] It numbs and it dumbs and it. [00:25:35] And then it begins to take a hold and you can’t [00:25:40] stop. And that’s the scary part.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:25:45] that went on for eight months. Yeah. And then. How [00:25:50] did you how did you feel about the fact he’d taken your child away? I mean, [00:25:55] that that kind of been comfortable. Were [00:26:00] you in touch?

Sharon Walsh: Um, no. Not really. He wouldn’t let me see her. [00:26:05] And my big one was still in and out. She [00:26:10] was working towards going to university. I [00:26:15] think I don’t blame I, [00:26:20] I don’t I have to work on forgiveness. And [00:26:25] this is what acceptance is. It’s forgiving and and knowing [00:26:30] that whatever’s happening is meant to be and is for a reason. So I [00:26:35] don’t blame him for what he did. I wouldn’t want to live with an alcoholic, somebody [00:26:40] who becomes useless and not functioning. I [00:26:45] would do the same in his position, and all I wanted was [00:26:50] for my girls to be okay and they are okay, so. I [00:26:55] have to accept it. Payman I you know, I [00:27:00] can’t. You can never force a relationship with another human being and that [00:27:05] and that’s something I have to, you know, that comes into my mind every [00:27:10] day. You can’t you can’t force somebody. You can’t beg somebody. You [00:27:15] can’t chase somebody. It’s relationships come and go, and [00:27:20] some people stay for a little bit. Some people stay for longer. [00:27:25] And ultimately we’re all on our own. It’s you know, [00:27:30] it. Ultimately, the the path is each of our paths is different. And. [00:27:35] And I truly believe [00:27:40] now and I feel this more and more deeply. I am I’m just I’m [00:27:45] here for a little bit longer, you know, and I’m just something that’s [00:27:50] within a body that’s here to learn lessons. And that is the [00:27:55] that is the meaning and purpose behind it all. So [00:28:00] where my life was so much in the outer world and about [00:28:05] success and trying to be the best dentist and the best mom and the best wife. It’s [00:28:10] actually [00:28:15] about for me anyway. It’s about the soul learning what it [00:28:20] needs to learn in this, in this incarnation and this journey.

Sharon Walsh: And [00:28:25] when it’s learned what it needs, I’ll go. But [00:28:30] saying that, I think there [00:28:35] has to be now for me anyway, there needs to be a merging with the inner and the outer. So. [00:28:40] There’s things that I’d like to [00:28:45] do now, but I’m not scared of death anymore. I’m not scared [00:28:50] of telling the truth. I’m not scared of standing up and being vulnerable. Um. [00:28:55] I want to tell the truth, because I think that unless people [00:29:00] do say and tell the truth, we’re not going to change. Unless I stand now [00:29:05] and say, you know, this is what happened with me with the GDC. And I hope somebody who works [00:29:10] for the GDC listens to listens to this because unless they change what they’re [00:29:15] doing, more people are going to keep taking their own lives. More people are going to become [00:29:20] addicts, and they sit there in their lofty positions, in their jobs, [00:29:25] thinking that they have power over people. Well [00:29:30] they do. False power. But what they don’t understand [00:29:35] is that they’re crushing other souls. He has to change. They [00:29:40] can’t treat other human beings like they’re doing, you know, a professional [00:29:45] people. Why do we beat dentists? Why did I choose dentistry? Because I wanted to help other [00:29:50] people and heal them. They say that they protect the [00:29:55] public. Well, who is the public? And [00:30:00] why do they take a hefty fee off us and not protect us? [00:30:05] They don’t give us any protection. What they do is crush [00:30:10] crushers for the most inane. A lot a lot of stories I’ve heard for the just [00:30:15] the most ridiculous mistakes that any human being can make. And [00:30:20] then they they’ll crush somebody and stop them from working and earning a living.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:30:25] think it’s better GDC wise as [00:30:30] well. Talking to people involved. Um, but [00:30:35] tell me about the GDC experience. What was it? How long did it take.

Sharon Walsh: The pain [00:30:40] on my neck for? Seven years.

Payman Langroudi: Seven years? Yeah. Seven [00:30:45] years. So you’ve got mountains of paperwork and [00:30:50] just lawyers and. Yeah. Seven [00:30:55] years. And the crux of [00:31:00] it.

Sharon Walsh: Never give up.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:31:05] the crux of what they were saying. The fitness to practice thing. Do [00:31:10] you want to talk about that.

Sharon Walsh: Or you don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Mind? You don’t have.

Sharon Walsh: To. I don’t mind talking about it. I mean, the last review was [00:31:15] in November. They used evidence that [00:31:20] was incorrect against me. Two major things. One, [00:31:25] they employed a doctor consultant psychiatrist who I met three times [00:31:30] over a zoom who asked me the most banal and inane questions [00:31:35] that were one dimensional, and then decided he’d make a diagnosis [00:31:40] that nobody else has diagnosed me with. And [00:31:45] when it came to the actual review, he was sat there and then he said, can I go now, please? [00:31:50] I’ve got other activities. And [00:31:55] then by no, I mean, it’s three years now. Come March, [00:32:00] I’ve, you know, since I’ve touched a drop of alcohol. And I never will again as long as I live. [00:32:05] But they based it on the fact that I hadn’t drunk for 18 months because of a hair sample. That [00:32:10] said, there was nought point, nought, nought something percentage of alcohol [00:32:15] in it, which I’d said to my lawyers, it’s well, it’s not alcohol. The only thing [00:32:20] that can be is the hair sample. So. So [00:32:25] they were going on the fact that I’ve not drunk for 18 months, which [00:32:30] is a lie. And then you sit there, you’re not allowed to say anything [00:32:35] that times they. Well, first of all, they weren’t on time [00:32:40] through each session they were late. And then they start cracking jokes with [00:32:45] each other whilst you’re sat there helpless, watching them discussing your life. Is [00:32:50] antiquated. So they go back to [00:32:55] her. There was an older chap there who was obviously a lawyer, and he, you know, he just [00:33:00] kept talking about the exacting points of law, which you don’t [00:33:05] even, you know, you can’t even begin to comprehend it. And as a, you know, as [00:33:10] a healthcare professional, we’re not lawyers.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I mean, I’ve been involved in one [00:33:15] legal case. And for those who haven’t, I think the most important thing [00:33:20] was that the first time you were ever involved in a legal situation, the GDC. [00:33:25] So the first time you go into it thinking, well, you know, the truth will out and [00:33:30] a lawyer is a lawyer and you know that that’s that’s the way I was going [00:33:35] into it. The truth will come out finally. But then you realise [00:33:40] actually it’s a it’s a real specialised situation of its own and [00:33:45] kind of how good your lawyer is is the most important variable [00:33:50] in the whole thing rather than what actually happened. Yeah. And often [00:33:55] the if you’re, if the other side and whoever the other side is [00:34:00] understands the law, they can really manipulate that outcome. And [00:34:05] obviously the other side does understand the law.

Sharon Walsh: So I [00:34:10] don’t trust anything in our life anymore. Really I don’t. Because [00:34:15] out of life and because we function from an ego, and [00:34:20] it’s not until you taste that and begin to detach from it [00:34:25] that you see that there is no, um, there’s no winner and loser in [00:34:30] outer life. And you’re right, the law is, um, [00:34:35] the law is for people who specialise in the law. But you get involved with these [00:34:40] people and they will use that to batter [00:34:45] you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Tell me about recovery. What [00:34:50] was the moment? What was what was the sort of inflection point? Were you the sort of classical [00:34:55] hitter all time low and decided you had to make a change [00:35:00] situation? Or how did it did it.

Sharon Walsh: Happen with the.

Payman Langroudi: Alcohol?

Sharon Walsh: Well, [00:35:05] the journey then after I finished working for the corporate, [00:35:10] it’s been six years. I’ve probably been in about 16 different places, [00:35:15] passed from pillar to post, rehab [00:35:20] to rehab because my ex didn’t want me back, breaking more and more. I [00:35:25] went to Italy on my own. [00:35:30] That was the last time I saw him. Had come out of hospital again and I thought [00:35:35] I was homeless. He’d taken my inheritance from my mum. I [00:35:40] had nothing. Apart from a suitcase with a few old clothes in it. He sold my house. [00:35:45] Taken every single thing. So I got to saw my girls. And him for the [00:35:50] last time was in October 2019. And I got [00:35:55] on a plane to Italy. And [00:36:00] then there was another two years of [00:36:05] trying to make a life in Italy and then going to Thailand and spending eight months [00:36:10] there. And then I came back and I fell into into big time drinking. [00:36:15] And I was, um, I was dying. And [00:36:20] one day I got [00:36:25] up and there was one person in my life called Jack, who was an 88 year [00:36:30] old Ex-gangster who lived two doors away from me, and he [00:36:35] saved my life. Payman. And because I used, he [00:36:40] gave me a reason to live. And I got up one day and I had half [00:36:45] a bottle of wine in the fridge. And I stood there at the sink and I poured it down the sink. [00:36:50] And I’ve never touched a drop since.

Payman Langroudi: But what was it? What was it? What was [00:36:55] the reason that at that point?

Sharon Walsh: Because I didn’t want [00:37:00] my daughters. To know that their [00:37:05] mum had died of being an alcoholic.

Payman Langroudi: So when you say you were dying, you [00:37:10] could feel that your health was getting worse every day or something. How could you? [00:37:15] How could you feel that you were dying at that point, rather than six months before that point, or [00:37:20] one year before that point? What happened?

Sharon Walsh: I was lying in [00:37:25] bed because I didn’t get out of bed that much for a while, and I closed [00:37:30] my eyes. And. In my [00:37:35] mind’s eye, I saw two angels stood at the foot of the bed.

Payman Langroudi: Whoa! [00:37:40]

Sharon Walsh: And. [00:37:50] I [00:37:55] just knew that I had to stop and I knew that. [00:38:00] I knew that I needed to carry on.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [00:38:05] were you spiritual [00:38:10] before?

Sharon Walsh: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t sort of find some. [00:38:15] I mean, this the way you were talking about outer world. Inner world? Yeah. [00:38:20] Were you always spiritual?

Sharon Walsh: Yeah, since I was a kid. And then with my husband, I had a long spiritual [00:38:25] search. So my life has started again. Is [00:38:30] based around prayer. I go, um, I love going and sitting in churches. I [00:38:35] have a Sufi sheikh, so I go and sit with. I go and sit with him. [00:38:40] I’ve been to. Yeah, I’ve met some amazing people. I [00:38:45] spent time with a Zen Buddhist monk called Thich Nhat Hanh in France. I [00:38:50] went to live with him for a while Um. [00:38:55]

Payman Langroudi: So the journey, the journey from that moment of [00:39:00] realisation that you wanted to choose life and [00:39:05] you poured that wine down the sink to [00:39:10] the person you’ve become now to seems resilient because, [00:39:15] you know, in substance abuse, a lot of times you’re sort of not resilient. [00:39:20] And you turn to the substance to how have you, how have you [00:39:25] done that? How have you, have you? Have you? Is it is it like, have you gone into the spiritual side and learned more [00:39:30] about it and learned more about yourself? And is that what it is?

Sharon Walsh: For [00:39:35] me, and I think if it’s for me, then it’s probably for [00:39:40] for most of us, really. There comes a time when you have to go [00:39:45] within and you have to start peeling back [00:39:50] the layers that we hide behind. And [00:39:55] as painful as it is, and as as [00:40:00] tough as it is to look at all the all those [00:40:05] masks, all those fears, those anxieties, the doubts, [00:40:10] the selfishness, the lies, the deceit. When [00:40:15] you start to walk into it, then [00:40:20] the fear and the anxiety start to dissipate and you [00:40:25] start to dissociate from it. So.

Payman Langroudi: Is [00:40:30] that what you mean by acceptance?

Sharon Walsh: Yes. It’s [00:40:35] not that it goes away. I was scared coming down here today. [00:40:40] I was I didn’t, you know, I thought, My God, I’ve not really [00:40:45] I mean, Anil said, you’ve got to plan for it and make sure you go and you look smart. And [00:40:50] I’m thinking.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Sharon Walsh: I.

Payman Langroudi: Was always worried about how everyone looks.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. He [00:40:55] was like that when he was at dental school. I love you. I know, honestly, I love him to bits. We do. And [00:41:00] do you know what, I adore him. He’s just. Honestly. Which I’m [00:41:05] so blessed with. Good friends at Payman. And, you know, it’s what [00:41:10] makes life really connection to beautiful people. And [00:41:15] then accepting and rejection from others, walking [00:41:20] away from others that hurt your soul. But when you’re with them and those people. [00:41:25] Now I’m beginning to kind of look at that as a blessing, because [00:41:30] those that hurt you and try to destroy you, and whose souls you [00:41:35] bang up against, his personalities you bang up against. They’re your greatest teachers. [00:41:40] Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: You know that. Have you, have you had any [00:41:45] sort of guilt along the way that you’ve had to sort of forgive yourself for.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. [00:41:50] I’m always giving myself a hard time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I mean that learning to forgive yourself [00:41:55] is a big skill in itself, right? I mean, all of us are a bit too hard on ourselves sometimes.

Sharon Walsh: I’m [00:42:00] very hard on myself. But then there comes a point. Sometimes you have to say, do you know what, [00:42:05] Shaz? Just. Forgive yourself [00:42:10] and be kind to yourself. Even if it’s just for half an hour a day. Mhm. [00:42:15] Because, you know, I don’t know what you’re like but people you know, give me compliments and, [00:42:20] and I was like oh. So. Um [00:42:25] but yeah I think you have to learn [00:42:30] to start forgiving.

Payman Langroudi: And how did you feel for [00:42:35] instance did you when when these things are happening, do you think what will people think [00:42:40] of me, piers? The shame [00:42:45] of sort of GDC, hearing that sort of thing.

Sharon Walsh: Well, you know [00:42:50] what? I guess there’s a lot of people out there who [00:42:55] who think that they know me. The thing underneath it all is that [00:43:00] nobody really knows anybody else. So you will no doubt [00:43:05] have judgements or thoughts about others, but. And judgements [00:43:10] and thoughts about me and our little meeting. But you don’t really know the whole of me, and I don’t know [00:43:15] the whole of me either. So I know that some people will [00:43:20] think that I’m a, you know, will you and will want to batter me if they wish to, with [00:43:25] the fact that, you know, I’ve had mental illness, anxiety and depression and a nervous breakdown, [00:43:30] and I became an alcoholic. So therefore they were probably thinking in [00:43:35] their own mind that because they haven’t had that, then they are somewhat superior to to [00:43:40] me. And that kind of when you feel that superior ness, it kind [00:43:45] of gives you a little buzz inside. You know, you stick your chicken breast out and you think I’m better than you are. [00:43:50] Do you know what the greatest people on the earth are? Those who are homeless. The [00:43:55] greatest people I’ve met are those who are alcoholics and addicts. [00:44:00] Those who suffer and get real. I [00:44:05] know what it’s like to be wealthy. Yeah, I, uh. [00:44:10] So does it hurt? Yeah. [00:44:15] It does. Of course it hurts. What people think about you. But [00:44:20] the truth is, human beings all talk about each other, don’t we? We all [00:44:25] talk about each other behind each other’s back, so. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:44:30] it’s interesting what you’re saying in that, you know, you take the person before [00:44:35] all of this happened, the perfect mum, principal wife. [00:44:40] There were massive unresolved issues [00:44:45] in that person who looked so perfect. And then you’re saying, [00:44:50] now the best people in the world are homeless alcoholics, and it’s because [00:44:55] they’ve been broken to the core, which inevitably is a beautiful [00:45:00] thing. Yeah. The core.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah, the core of somebody. Yeah. [00:45:05] Yeah, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: A beautiful idea.

Sharon Walsh: Well, you know, Jesus said, didn’t he? In the Bible, [00:45:10] the meek shall inherit the earth, right? The thing [00:45:15] is that the outer life, it’s like the desires that we have. [00:45:20] We think that, you know, if we can make lots of money, we [00:45:25] think that, you know, I’m a doctor, I’m a dentist. If [00:45:30] I’ve got, you know, a beautiful partner and [00:45:35] two kids and I live in a five bedroom house and I drive an Audi Q3. And [00:45:40] you think you’ve made it. And that’s. But [00:45:45] it’s an illusion. The whole thing [00:45:50] is an illusion. Payman. Yeah, it’s an illusion.

Payman Langroudi: I reflect on [00:45:55] that all the time. You know that your relationship with your car is the [00:46:00] same whichever car you drive. It really is. [00:46:05] You know, I’ve had terrible cars and I’ve had brilliant cars. And your relationship with [00:46:10] your car is not worth talking about. It’s not, it’s not. It’s not a relationship. But [00:46:15] people people will will, you know, lay their lives on the line to, [00:46:20] to get that car, you know, to work on a Sunday, work on a Saturday to [00:46:25] pay for that car. And it’s the same with all things, all possessions and and [00:46:30] even achievements. And I mean, now you’re saying even you’re going even deeper than that and saying the [00:46:35] whole shebang. The whole shebang is an illusion.

Sharon Walsh: Well, I don’t [00:46:40] have, you know, I was I Sir. I was very wealthy and I come from [00:46:45] a very wealthy family. And now I’m not. I’m relatively [00:46:50] poor, so. But you know what? [00:46:55] I bought a new car last week for the first time in eight years, and it’s the best thing [00:47:00] that’s happened to me. It’s not an Audi Q3. It’s a tiny little Nissan [00:47:05] Micra, but I’m grateful for it. And every time I sit in it, I think thank [00:47:10] you. The hardest thing I find is to be grateful. I [00:47:15] have to work on that every day, get up and think I’m still alive, right? [00:47:20] Go for a cup of tea. I am grateful for this cup of tea because it’s [00:47:25] not until I’ve been stood on the street homeless. Once I [00:47:30] was homeless, with a suitcase with tattered clothes in it [00:47:35] and a bank card that my ex-husband was in control with. And I’m telling you, when you have got [00:47:40] nothing. It’s the most scariest feeling in the world. Got [00:47:45] nowhere to go. No one to go to.

Payman Langroudi: So what were you doing? Where were you sleeping?

Sharon Walsh: I [00:47:50] was in. It was the last rehab I was in, in Scarborough. And [00:47:55] they threw me out because I just couldn’t take it anymore. I lay in bed one day, [00:48:00] and then the manager came and he said, right, you got 20 minutes to get out. I’m like, I’ve got nowhere [00:48:05] to go. He said, I don’t care. Get out. Wow. So I packed my bag and I stood [00:48:10] there on the street.

Payman Langroudi: Did that feel like a rock bottom? [00:48:15] Must have.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah, it was really scary. [00:48:20] So what did you do? I went to a bed and breakfast. [00:48:25] And then [00:48:30] there’d been a guy who’d picked me up from Heathrow airport when I came back from Thailand [00:48:35] that my ex had somehow sorted out. And [00:48:40] I phoned him and he came to the bed and breakfast and [00:48:45] I phoned my sister. And she [00:48:50] said, come here. [00:48:55] My sister saved my life twice. So [00:49:00] I went I went to my sister’s.

Payman Langroudi: Where [00:49:05] was she?

Sharon Walsh: In Leeds.

Payman Langroudi: Where [00:49:10] you now live as well?

Sharon Walsh: Yeah, [00:49:15] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whoa! What a story. Now [00:49:20] you can practice again after seven long years. Yeah. How [00:49:25] are you feeling about that?

Sharon Walsh: Nervous? I [00:49:30] don’t know if it’s what I want to do anymore. I’ll always [00:49:35] feel passionate about my profession. Um, [00:49:40] I have a close friend who’s offered for me [00:49:45] to go up and shadow her in her practice, and then she said, well, you look, [00:49:50] Sharon. She said, we could maybe book some patients in for you and just do some check-ups and some [00:49:55] hygiene. And I’m thinking, well, why not?

Payman Langroudi: Does she know your [00:50:00] whole story?

Sharon Walsh: Yeah, yeah, she’s one of my closest pals.

Payman Langroudi: A lovely friend, a lovely friend.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. [00:50:05] So. So I’m going to do that. And. [00:50:10] Like I said, I just.

Payman Langroudi: See where you go from there. [00:50:15] Yeah, I.

Sharon Walsh: Just take I just take one day at a time. Literally. I have to live in the now [00:50:20] because I can’t.

Payman Langroudi: So are you worried [00:50:25] that you won’t want to do the job anymore? Is that what it is or that you weren’t? You’re [00:50:30] not up to doing the job anymore.

Sharon Walsh: I think I’m worried that. Yeah, both, I guess.

Payman Langroudi: Nah, you’ll be [00:50:35] fine. I took I took six years off. Did you? I mean, you know, [00:50:40] albeit when we started the company and then I went back and they [00:50:45] the first two weeks were tough, but after that it was fine. Yeah. Um, [00:50:50] you’ll be fine. Regarding pulling it off the, the clinical, you know, aspects of it that what you say to patients. [00:50:55] All of that is hardwired in after you’ve done it for as long as you’ve done it. Um, but [00:51:00] the question of would you want to do it? I think that’ll be the bigger challenge because, [00:51:05] you know, you’re a different person now to [00:51:10] the person you were then. Yeah, I am. That [00:51:15] said, we’re lucky in dentistry. You know, we can do one day a week if we want [00:51:20] to, two days a week. I think two days. I’ve done all [00:51:25] of it. I’ve done one day a week for years, but did not anymore. But I did for 5 or 6 years. [00:51:30] It’s not correct. You just you don’t get into a rhythm, Them. But two days a week [00:51:35] I think is wonderful life. Dentistry for two days is amazing. And [00:51:40] you know, we’re lucky in that in two days we could make as much money as most people could make in a week.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. [00:51:45] You’re right. And that’s what I’m thinking of. You know, two [00:51:50] days, two days a week would be enough.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:51:55] And then pursue something else. You know, I mean, I asked [00:52:00] you, why are you here? Why? Why have you come to tell this [00:52:05] story? Well, you know, on, on, on paper, you might think this is something that you might want [00:52:10] to sort of keep quiet. And you said, tell me. Well, tell [00:52:15] tell me again. Come down. Yeah. Why? Why are you here?

Sharon Walsh: Because [00:52:20] I’m standing up for truth and reality. And [00:52:25] if one person listens to this, who’s on the edge of whatever [00:52:30] they’re on the edge of either in the working life or the [00:52:35] home life, and they’re about to turn to drink or drugs, [00:52:40] or they’re facing a GDC hearing, or [00:52:45] they’re thinking about doing something inside that they know that they [00:52:50] shouldn’t. Then I stand as that voice to say, never give up. And. [00:52:55] I know that in your heart [00:53:00] space and know that within there is a guide that guides us all. So [00:53:05] and that compelled me to come down. Really? So [00:53:10] you asked me where you think I’m going. I’ve started to write a book and [00:53:15] I’m being guided by my sheikh. He’s helping me, [00:53:20] and I think I’m going to call it the naked Soul, because [00:53:25] that’s how I feel. I am Payman, I [00:53:30] feel like I don’t. I don’t really feel in this life anymore. I [00:53:35] don’t feel like I fit. I never really felt like I fitted in anywhere I [00:53:40] don’t. I feel less and less. I see and taste life in a different way. It’s crazy. [00:53:45] The truth is, it’s crazy. And when you really look at what we’re doing, [00:53:50] what are we doing and what’s it all about? And having been around [00:53:55] people, addicts, people who have got close to and lost. Yeah, [00:54:00] you see that? You know, we could go any time. [00:54:05] So I think my next step is I’m writing this book.

Payman Langroudi: And then so [00:54:10] the book is about your story. Yeah, yeah. [00:54:15] And how far are you in it? You near the near the end or near the beginning?

Sharon Walsh: No, I’m near the beginning. [00:54:20] I get up each morning and I sit and pray, meditate, pray. And then I just [00:54:25] talk into my phone about. I just [00:54:30] talk? I talk and and tell my journey like I’ve been telling you. And then I’m [00:54:35] going to get it written.

Payman Langroudi: And is there catharsis in it? I mean, does it? [00:54:40] Yeah. Does it heal you to talk about it, to think about it?

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. It does. And [00:54:45] I mean, it’s been so much to deal with, so little kind of I think [00:54:50] my mind allows certain things to come in when I’m ready to see it. [00:54:55] Like, I still find it very difficult to even think about my ex-husband. [00:55:00] It’s so painful. And then think about [00:55:05] my children. It hurts a lot, but [00:55:10] I’m starting to, you know, to look at it and and feel just [00:55:15] just be with it. Be with everything that comes up.

Payman Langroudi: Does [00:55:20] your. Feeling [00:55:25] towards your children. How [00:55:30] would you characterise that?

Sharon Walsh: It’s [00:55:35] a depth of love that never [00:55:40] goes away. I [00:55:45] miss my [00:55:50] little girl very much. [00:55:55] Um. And I just pray every day that she’ll [00:56:00] come back into my life. And she did text me at Christmas, which was really [00:56:05] sweet. And so I just, um, I send a little messages most days [00:56:10] with pictures about what I’m doing. And then my big ones [00:56:15] were close, so that’s really lovely. But [00:56:20] she’s in New Zealand.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so are you waiting for your younger one [00:56:25] to invite you back into your life.

Sharon Walsh: Is that I guess I am. Is that what it is? Yeah. Yeah, I think [00:56:30] I am. I’d love it to be back in my life.

Payman Langroudi: That [00:56:35] must hurt.

Sharon Walsh: It does.

Payman Langroudi: That must hurt. We [00:56:40] on this pod, we like to talk about mistakes. Clinical mistakes generally. [00:56:45]

Sharon Walsh: But yeah, I guess I made a lot of those.

Payman Langroudi: Leave. Leave clinical to [00:56:50] one side. What mistakes have you made? I mean, outside of the [00:56:55] obvious. What? I’m good at making mistakes. Yeah, but what mistakes? [00:57:00] Like when you go, when you think back on the journey. I mean, [00:57:05] I’d say in this journey, maybe from what, the tiny bit of it. I understand the mistake might have been marrying [00:57:10] that man, you know, like, it could be that.

Sharon Walsh: I [00:57:15] don’t have any. I don’t I don’t have any regrets.

Payman Langroudi: I think of it like that.

Sharon Walsh: No, because it has. [00:57:20] Everything is as it is, as it is. And you do what you do at the time. Mistakes. [00:57:25] I wish I’d been strong enough not [00:57:30] to break and to just ride through the process with the practice. [00:57:35] And in fact, there was a lady who came for interview and we bonded and [00:57:40] we’ve stayed in touch. And I really wish that. I [00:57:45] really wish that I’d taken her on because, [00:57:50] I mean, she went on to have her own practice and then she’s actually had a lot of problems and she’s left the country. [00:57:55] She’s gone to start a new life abroad. But I suppose mistakes. [00:58:00] Yeah. I think if I’d have taken her on, maybe it would have worked. [00:58:05] Clinical [00:58:10] mistakes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about those.

Sharon Walsh: I [00:58:15] was thinking about this when I was coming down, actually, because I saw it in you on the [00:58:20] email. I just thought it was a funny one that one that came to mind. I was working with a new technician [00:58:25] prosthetic. Technician. And I was making two sets of four falls [00:58:30] with him. And the trains were great. And I was really happy [00:58:35] with what we were doing. And it came to fit. And the first person. Came in, and I [00:58:40] took the dentures out and tried to fit the upper, and it just went nowhere near.

Payman Langroudi: The wrong [00:58:45] patient.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. And I was like, you know, when you try to run and I’m thinking. The train was [00:58:50] perfect. And I’m like.

[TRANSITION]: Oh.

Sharon Walsh: No, he put the dentures in the wrong [00:58:55] bags. So you.

Payman Langroudi: Tried the other set, ready to.

Sharon Walsh: Try the other [00:59:00] set ready. But it didn’t even cross my mind. And I’m just thinking, what have I [00:59:05] done wrong?

Payman Langroudi: Oh I see.

Sharon Walsh: So that’s one of the funniest [00:59:10] things. Ever. It wasn’t funny at the time.

Payman Langroudi: What did you do? You apologise to the patient and, [00:59:15] uh. Called the lab.

Sharon Walsh: I can’t even know. I think I had both sets there. I [00:59:20] think I think I went back in. I think I actually after about half an hour of trying to shove this [00:59:25] up attention, I went in the back and thought, My God, I think that the back, the dentures [00:59:30] are in the wrong bags. Oh gosh. I [00:59:35] think. You know, when you’re younger, I remember thinking [00:59:40] I needed to try and save every single tooth and every single person’s mouth. Yeah. [00:59:45] And as you get older, you realise you can’t do that.

Payman Langroudi: Some hero antics.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah [00:59:50] I tried, yeah, I tried to be a hero dentist.

Payman Langroudi: In my, in my early career [00:59:55] when before I understood this, I used to go subgingival caries [01:00:00] removal. It would become an RCT and it would all be subgingival. And I’d [01:00:05] still think I can do this. Yeah. And, you know, try and keep this, find that canal [01:00:10] and keep it all dry. And then you realise you can’t. You can’t.

Sharon Walsh: No you can’t. [01:00:15]

Payman Langroudi: Even on the times that it worked, it probably didn’t work for long. No.

Sharon Walsh: You can only [01:00:20] do what you can do. Um. And [01:00:25] it’s hard. You know, I think as dentists, we’re in this little surgery on our own a lot of the time, [01:00:30] and we’re having to make decisions on the spur of the moment. [01:00:35] And, you know, if you are, if you come [01:00:40] from a place where you’re empathetic and you care and you’re compassionate, you just want to help everybody. [01:00:45] But as time goes along, you realise you can’t. You can’t do that. [01:00:50]

Payman Langroudi: Why do you think dentists take their own lives more than others?

Sharon Walsh: I. [01:01:00] Well, I’ve. Dentistry is the only job I’ve ever known, but [01:01:05] I think that it is. I think that it’s a very [01:01:10] lonely job. Payman. I think it is. You know, obviously you are with another [01:01:15] being and you pick up the up the energy from the other being. And [01:01:20] a lot of the time when they’re coming, it’s, you know, it’s negative. They’re scared. They’re anxious. [01:01:25] They don’t want to pay you. And you pick this all up. And [01:01:30] I think that it’s a constant endurance test, [01:01:35] you know, working with another human being in the mouth, which [01:01:40] is the most intimate part of another person’s body. [01:01:45] And it takes its toll. Yeah. [01:01:50] It takes its toll on you. And, you know, physically, it takes its toll. And I used to be really [01:01:55] stiff physically. And then I found yoga, which is where I’m going back to it. [01:02:00] It just booked in yesterday.

Payman Langroudi: Nice. But my cousins are eye surgeon and [01:02:05] he was telling me on his GAA days he [01:02:10] has a lovely relaxed day, but on his LA days they’re twice as [01:02:15] stressful. Yeah. And and you know, they’re having to put injections in the eyes and [01:02:20] it’s a similar a live patient who you’re potentially going [01:02:25] to hurt. And every time you give an LA potentially you’re going to cause [01:02:30] pain there. Yeah. But you’re right. You take on that stress [01:02:35] from every patient. Yeah. You do the four walls, [01:02:40] the loneliness of it. I completely accept as well. I mean, even though [01:02:45] it’s a people job, the only person who’s there the whole time is your nurse. [01:02:50] And I’ve often thought, you know, I got on with most of my nurses, the [01:02:55] vast majority. But if you don’t, if there’s a situation where you’ve got a clash with [01:03:00] your nurse, your nurse hates you. Let’s say for whatever reason, [01:03:05] now you’re coming in every day to a room with someone who you’re not getting [01:03:10] on with, and then you’ve got this stress of each patient Then [01:03:15] throw in a GDC case. Yeah.

Sharon Walsh: So to [01:03:20] answer the question, isn’t it? Yeah. You know, a human being can only take so much.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:03:25]

Sharon Walsh: I can’t believe I’m alive. I don’t know why I’m alive.

Payman Langroudi: Did [01:03:30] you ever have the sort of suicidal ideation? Did you think about taking [01:03:35] your own life?

Sharon Walsh: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like how how how much? Like, [01:03:40] explain that to me. Should talk me through that. You got to a point of saying I’m going [01:03:45] to do it, or the feeling of wanting to do it kept coming up in [01:03:50] your head. Yeah.

Sharon Walsh: It had enough. Sometimes. I’ve had enough now. Yeah. [01:03:55] You still.

Payman Langroudi: Think about.

Sharon Walsh: It? Um. I would never take my own [01:04:00] life, but I go to. I often go to bed, you know, and I.

Payman Langroudi: Get to an edge.

Sharon Walsh: I get to an edge, [01:04:05] and I think I’m tired. I’m tired of, you know, every day. Every day [01:04:10] is hard. Every day is a challenge. Alonge [01:04:15] and I. And sometimes I think I say, Dear God, [01:04:20] I’ve had enough. I just want to go home. I’ve tasted death. [01:04:25] And you know what? It’s actually very beautiful. It’s [01:04:30] actually a release. And [01:04:35] so what’s there to be scared of? Annie [01:04:40] Lennox, you remember the. Yeah. She wrote some words and she went in [01:04:45] this song. Dying is easy. It’s living that scares me to death.

Payman Langroudi: Nice [01:04:50] twist at the end.

Sharon Walsh: It does scare me to death. I [01:04:55] talk to my shake. I’m like, I don’t know what to do anymore. What do I do? My [01:05:00] husband’s gone. I don’t own a home. My kids are not [01:05:05] there. I’m in a little flat that hardly has anything [01:05:10] in it. It’s like [01:05:15] I have no partner in my life and I’m alone a lot [01:05:20] of the time.

Payman Langroudi: So as you said, they were all alone.

Sharon Walsh: We’re [01:05:25] all alone. And actually, you know, you learn a lot about yourself when you’re alone. [01:05:30] You learn what? And you learn what you don’t want.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Sharon Walsh: But [01:05:35] when you try and and put yourself out there again and get rejected, [01:05:40] you think oh I can’t be bothered.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:05:45] It’s been a massive [01:05:50] pleasure listening to you.

Sharon Walsh: Thanks for having me.

Payman Langroudi: Of [01:05:55] course. Um, as soon as I read your initial email, [01:06:00] whatever it was text, I thought I’d have to talk to you and see what what what’s [01:06:05] going on here? We tend to end on the same Questions. Fantasy [01:06:10] dinner party. Three guests.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. I was thinking about [01:06:15] this. Dead or.

Payman Langroudi: Alive?

Sharon Walsh: Two. [01:06:20] Two who have passed and one alive. George [01:06:25] Ivanovich Gurdjieff, who was [01:06:30] a master. He died in 1949. I [01:06:35] just read his books. He developed [01:06:40] the fourth way. Like learning in life. He had a passion. [01:06:45] He had his burning passion was who am I and what’s it all about? Read [01:06:50] his books. Been involved in the Gurdjieffian work? It’s what bonded [01:06:55] me and my husband together. So him.

Payman Langroudi: What was his name again?

Sharon Walsh: George Ivanovich [01:07:00] Gurdjieff. Mr. Gurdjieff. He was a seeker of the [01:07:05] truth. And he was born. He was Greek, Armenian, born in, [01:07:10] I think 1866, just had the most amazing life. [01:07:15]

Payman Langroudi: And the name of the book.

Sharon Walsh: He’s written several books.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:07:20] but the best one, the.

Sharon Walsh: Best one is [01:07:25] called something. I have to look it up. Payman. My short term memory isn’t good. That’s [01:07:30] a lie. Yeah. Life is only real. When I, um. [01:07:35]

Payman Langroudi: When I am, when.

Sharon Walsh: I am.

Payman Langroudi: Real.

Sharon Walsh: Life is only real [01:07:40] when I am.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll check.

Sharon Walsh: It out. Yeah. So him. And then the [01:07:45] second person, Paramahansa Yogananda, who [01:07:50] was an Indian who came to the West and brought, [01:07:55] um, was one of the first people to bring yoga to the West. And I broke my Achilles [01:08:00] about, um, 12 years ago. And [01:08:05] so I had to stop. I had to sit. And I read his autobiography. [01:08:10] It’s absolutely incredible. It’s [01:08:15] one of the most incredible books I’ve ever read. So I’d love to have had dinner with him. [01:08:20] Living. I’d like to meet the King. Charles. [01:08:25] Charles? Yeah, I think that. I [01:08:30] think that he’s a deep soul. And [01:08:35] and I admire him. I admire him. I mean, I just that family’s [01:08:40] been through such hell. I don’t care how much money you’ve got, how many houses [01:08:45] you’ve got, what status you’ve got. At the end of the day, you go to bed on your own, you get up [01:08:50] on your own. And we’re all human beings on a journey. And I just think [01:08:55] that he’s he’s been through so much in his life and, you know, [01:09:00] to stand up and reign after his mum, who reigned for 70 years. That’s tough. [01:09:05]

Payman Langroudi: Would you not want the Queen herself?

Sharon Walsh: I loved the Queen. I’d have loved to have [01:09:10] met her.

Payman Langroudi: You could throw her. Should we throw her in a fourth? Have a fourth guest?

Sharon Walsh: Yeah, I’d [01:09:15] love to. I’d have loved. I mean, what a woman she was. I mean, just extraordinary. [01:09:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I think with the royals, you end up. [01:09:25] I mean, you must have seen Charles since he was a teenager. Yeah. So you end up watching [01:09:30] every part of their life all the way up from a teenager to cancer [01:09:35] diagnosis. Yeah. And all the bits in between. Yeah. And so you [01:09:40] do end up having a sort of different appreciation of that life than many others. Yeah. [01:09:45] It’s a funny thing. Well, I.

Sharon Walsh: Think when you start to get older and [01:09:50] you start to get on the other, you know, I mean, I’m nearly 60 now. [01:09:55] You see things in a totally different way.

Payman Langroudi: I just [01:10:00] remember, I’m not a royalist at all. I’m happy for the royal family to disappear. But [01:10:05] when the Queen died, I felt I felt something. The first time [01:10:10] I felt something for someone I didn’t know, you know. Of course. Friends, family, those [01:10:15] people. Sure. But. But someone I didn’t know at all. I just felt something there. And I [01:10:20] was thinking about. Why is that? Why am I feeling something when I don’t believe in royalty? I don’t believe [01:10:25] in, in in that system at all. And and thinking about it, I thought [01:10:30] what I said about you watch someone and often, often you’re crying [01:10:35] for yourself. I didn’t cry, but but I could have. Often you’re crying for yourself rather than that person as well, because [01:10:40] it’s also your life that when what? Charles be a 15 year old. Charles [01:10:45] be a 25 year old child? Where was I when he was there? Where was I? It’s an interesting. [01:10:50]

Sharon Walsh: Thing. Ultimately, I think we’re all connected. We’re all connected. [01:10:55] And do you.

Payman Langroudi: Think your belief in God has strengthened [01:11:00] Since you’ve been through all this?

Sharon Walsh: Yeah, massively.

Payman Langroudi: Because [01:11:05] you’ve gotten through it.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. God is. I feel like I’ve. I [01:11:10] don’t know who or what God is. And I used to be embarrassed to talk about [01:11:15] God. I’m not anymore. Because. Because [01:11:20] ultimately, who and what created [01:11:25] all of this? I mean, you know, what am I? My greatest wish is to become [01:11:30] a nothing. Nobody. And I [01:11:35] just feel that you can break and break and [01:11:40] you can lose. Like, I have lost. Lost most everything. But there is a flame [01:11:45] inside that burns. And there is an inner guidance. And there is. [01:11:50] There’s a calling. It’s almost like a [01:11:55] calling. It’s interesting. We all talk about [01:12:00] God so much, don’t we? You know how many times a day do we say, oh God or [01:12:05] oh, Christ or and we don’t even know what we’re saying.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:12:10] blasphemy, you mean. Well, yeah. Strictly speaking, [01:12:15] yeah.

Sharon Walsh: But we say it, don’t we? So where’s it coming from?

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:12:20] in the language, right? It’s in the it’s in my my my wife’s parents always laugh at me. [01:12:25] They’re staying with us right now. I say Jesus a lot. And there they are, actual Christians. [01:12:30] And I’m not talking about Jesus again. [01:12:35]

Sharon Walsh: Yeah, it’s, um, it’s an interesting one. [01:12:40] I mean, and also, you know, I think that our language, we don’t have the words [01:12:45] in the English language to describe a lot of what [01:12:50] goes on. It’s not it’s we just don’t have the [01:12:55] words to talk about what’s in here?

Payman Langroudi: Final [01:13:00] question. Yes. On your deathbed.

Sharon Walsh: On my deathbed. [01:13:05]

Payman Langroudi: Surrounded by your loved ones. What three pieces of advice would you give [01:13:10] them?

Sharon Walsh: Never give up. [01:13:15] At some point, turn within and start facing everything [01:13:20] about yourself. Trust that everything is going to [01:13:25] be okay.

Payman Langroudi: Right now. A [01:13:30] massive pleasure. Thank you so much for coming in.

Sharon Walsh: Thanks [01:13:35] for having me.

Payman Langroudi: And for doing this in the first place. A lot of respect for [01:13:40] people who do that.

Sharon Walsh: You know, a friend texted me this morning. A dentist who. And [01:13:45] he’s really struggling. And he said to me, he [01:13:50] said, Chaz, I’m so proud of you for doing this. [01:13:55]

Payman Langroudi: Definitely. And and being so open and authentic. There [01:14:00] was a question I asked, and I asked all sorts of questions that you didn’t truly [01:14:05] answer. Look. Look for the real truth. So thank you. [01:14:10]

Sharon Walsh: Thank you.

[VOICE]: This is Dental [01:14:15] Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [01:14:20] in dentistry. Your hosts [01:14:25] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. [01:14:30] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both [01:14:35] from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guests [01:14:40] has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, [01:14:45] think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you [01:14:50] think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our [01:14:55] six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by Enlightened Smiles. Enlighten is the world’s most [00:00:05] effective teeth whitening treatment. We’ve treated well over half a million patients across 11 countries [00:00:10] now, so have a look if you want to swap unpredictable, underwhelming results with delighted [00:00:15] patients and higher margins. Enlightened smiles. Get yourself trained. Get your team trained. Let’s get to the pod. [00:00:20]

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get [00:00:30] to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:40] Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Fariborz Zolfaghari [00:00:45] onto the podcast. Uh Fariba is a dentist who [00:00:50] had a turbulent journey to dentistry in the first place. And then, [00:00:55] you know, girlboss, um, started her own her own practice in 2000, [00:01:00] in Norwich. Dental. And it’s now a [00:01:05] thriving eight surgery practice. I see far more on the sort of lecture circuit. [00:01:10] Still going, still still learning, still curious. Which is so amazing to [00:01:15] see. Massive pleasure to have you. Thanks for coming.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Thank you for having me. Payman.

Payman Langroudi: So, um, [00:01:20] I like to ask a particular question that’s on my mind. Otherwise [00:01:25] I won’t, I won’t say it. And then I’ll be waiting to say it all the time and all of that. It’s [00:01:30] around this question of curiosity for the work. So [00:01:35] a lot of people, they get to a certain point and then they don’t continue to improve. [00:01:40] But some people, like you, continue to come and learn [00:01:45] and keep going. And in the educational sense, what’s [00:01:50] different about you that that makes you do that? And where the I’d say the majority [00:01:55] of people settle into a pattern and stay in that pattern.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I [00:02:00] think I would always like [00:02:05] to give my patients the best service that I [00:02:10] possibly could, and I always want to keep myself [00:02:15] on the forefront of dentistry, at least having the knowledge [00:02:20] to be able to advise my patients about, even if I [00:02:25] don’t have the skills I would like to know.

Payman Langroudi: About, to send them.

Fariba Zolfaghari: An order, [00:02:30] where to send them, what’s possible. What’s possible.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but why, why why you [00:02:35] like that? And other people, I mean, no one, no, [00:02:40] no dentist is going to sit in front of me and say, I don’t want to know what’s the latest, but, you know, it’s one of the things [00:02:45] that in our profession tends to happen. I, by the way, the best way to stay interested in being a dentist [00:02:50] is to get better. I completely understand that. But, you know, are [00:02:55] you that type in every endeavour that you do or.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Absolutely [00:03:00] I am. I always want to be better than I was yesterday. Really [00:03:05] always, always in all aspects of my life.

Payman Langroudi: And so why? [00:03:10]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Because I want to grow personally [00:03:15] and in my professional field as [00:03:20] well. I think it’s very important for one’s, [00:03:25] um, confidence for one’s [00:03:30] growth in life as well as, um, in, [00:03:35] in our profession.

Payman Langroudi: I still I’m still not happy with the answer. [00:03:40] It’s not that everything you’re saying makes a lot of sense. [00:03:45] Yeah, but the question of why you found it important [00:03:50] to be the best. Other people want to be to be the quickest or [00:03:55] the kindest, or the richest, or the or the laziest or the, you [00:04:00] know, you continuing to improve at this point? I don’t see I’m on the education circuit a lot. You know, [00:04:05] I go to, you know, so many events and there’s a lot of young people at the events, loads [00:04:10] and loads.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Dentistry is evolving, isn’t it? Yeah. And you have to follow [00:04:15] with these. Yeah. Development of the equipments [00:04:20] and techniques in dentistry and the research [00:04:25] a lot of researches and that is happening. So you want to always be [00:04:30] knowing what’s going on about your [00:04:35] profession that you are in. I don’t want to be asked [00:04:40] a question from a patient and I said I will Google it for you. [00:04:45] Yeah, yeah, at least I have an idea to be able [00:04:50] to provide Aid guidance in that respect, and I think I always [00:04:55] wanted to improve myself in my profession and [00:05:00] personally as well. Um, so you said you’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Got a life coach?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes [00:05:05] I do.

Payman Langroudi: When did that start?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Um, I started [00:05:10] early this year.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about that. I mean, would you recommend it?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I would highly [00:05:15] recommend it.

Payman Langroudi: What happens? What does it mean? A life coach. What does that mean?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Well, um, [00:05:20] because of the events that has [00:05:25] happened to me all over the years. Um, I think there were [00:05:30] still issues that not healed with [00:05:35] myself. Okay. And, um, I realised that [00:05:40] I got a a need [00:05:45] to speak about those issues and to get a the guidance, [00:05:50] how I could help myself to heal, basically, [00:05:55] and to get over those issues. And because you [00:06:00] always want to know why it happened, why me and [00:06:05] why the other people behaved like they did. And. [00:06:10] Literally, it was the sadness [00:06:15] and the depression that I used to get. And [00:06:20] that’s one of the reasons I thought that I [00:06:25] need to speak with somebody to help me, guide me and go [00:06:30] through the healing process.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the difference in a life coach and a therapist? Is it similar [00:06:35] or is it different?

Fariba Zolfaghari: A life coach? It [00:06:40] will change your behaviour based [00:06:45] on what your needs Edith are a therapist. [00:06:50] You go and speak to them and they listen [00:06:55] to you. But they probably wouldn’t go deep into the foundation [00:07:00] of the problem. They can listen to you and give [00:07:05] you some guidance. But the life coach, it gives you [00:07:10] guidance, gives you tactics and tactics to deal with your [00:07:15] issues, even the daily issues that you have. And [00:07:20] luckily, she is not only a life coach, she is my business coach as well. So [00:07:25] I will, um, share with her um, day [00:07:30] by day issues. We have a session every, every week and she [00:07:35] gives me tasks to do. And, um, if I put the work in, we [00:07:40] will get the result.

Payman Langroudi: It’s excellent. That means you’ve still got a mentor now? Yeah. [00:07:45] And are you a you a mentor for other people too? Must be.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I am in the practice. [00:07:50] Yeah, absolutely. Because we have got several young dentists, [00:07:55] um, that have joined the practice. And obviously [00:08:00] clinically I have been teaching them, mentoring them. [00:08:05] Um, and that’s a great reward because I can see [00:08:10] the growth in.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of a boss are you?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I think I am a [00:08:15] good boss. Yeah, I think I am. Do you enjoy.

Payman Langroudi: Being a.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Boss? I enjoy [00:08:20] what I’m doing. It’s at some points [00:08:25] it’s really hard because you’re dealing with people. You’re dealing with personalities [00:08:30] and having to deal with different personalities. [00:08:35] Sometimes you have to have a knowledge, [00:08:40] um, how to deal with people. A little bit of bit of psychology, [00:08:45] a little bit of background of knowing the individual and [00:08:50] coming down to their level when you want something [00:08:55] done or when you are speaking to them about the conflict.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:09:00] there isn’t anyone else that you’re partnered with. Now in the practice, it’s just.

Fariba Zolfaghari: You, [00:09:05] just.

Payman Langroudi: Me. It’s a little bit lonely sometimes when it’s you’re the only one, right? Hundred percent. I mean, I’m [00:09:10] in a big partnership. There’s four of us, but but I do. But it means I have [00:09:15] to split the profits four ways as well. Right. But. But I do recognise when things are really bad. [00:09:20] That’s when you call your partner and that’s not available. I guess you call your business coach. [00:09:25]

Fariba Zolfaghari: I do now, I do now, but a lot of time I [00:09:30] do share with my partner, who has had his own business [00:09:35] for many, many years. Um, and he’s very wise [00:09:40] and advised me about the issues, so I’m [00:09:45] quite lucky in that respect.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the usual way we normally start this podcast. [00:09:50] Tell me about your childhood. What kind of a kid were you? Where were you? What happened in [00:09:55] your childhood that eventually ended up in dentistry? Well, that. That journey.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I [00:10:00] was a loved child [00:10:05] and we had a family of five. [00:10:10] Uh, me and my two sisters and brother. Um, [00:10:15] my parents divorced at the age of 11 years [00:10:20] old. And at that time, um, it was really [00:10:25] taboo to talk about it at the school, in the society, in Iran. [00:10:30] And the culture doesn’t look very good. Um, [00:10:35] on divorce. So it was a shame that I carried with me [00:10:40] all over up to the adulthood. And [00:10:45] then obviously, when I finished [00:10:50] my A-level in Iran, um, it was revolution [00:10:55] and universities were closed. There was no [00:11:00] job opportunities for women. Um, as a result, I [00:11:05] had to marry a person [00:11:10] that was decided for me. So basically an arranged [00:11:15] marriage by my parents.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me, tell me just that that were [00:11:20] you at that time thinking this isn’t what I want? Or were you thinking, were you just playing the game?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Did I [00:11:25] did.

Payman Langroudi: They mention it to them and.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Mentioned it? And I broke the engagement. [00:11:30] But unfortunately, again, that’s like bringing shame to [00:11:35] your family. Um, and it wasn’t looked at, um, [00:11:40] very well. Um, in, in my culture. Um, so as [00:11:45] a result, I had to take it back and I had to marry. Um, [00:11:50] but like.

Payman Langroudi: How negative were you about it out of out of ten, were you, like 11 out of ten? [00:11:55] Negative. Or were you, like three and a half? Like, what was it? How bad was it for you that [00:12:00] idea. And before, before even getting into the relationship, the idea of not picking your own [00:12:05] husband.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It was really.

Payman Langroudi: Bad.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It was really bad. Really hard. Because, [00:12:10] um. I love somebody else. Oh. Did you? I did one [00:12:15] of my cousins. Um, but unfortunately, it [00:12:20] wasn’t approved by my parents. Yeah. Um, so it didn’t [00:12:25] go anywhere. Yeah. As a result, I had to accept what they [00:12:30] chose for me. Um, and I said to myself, okay, I [00:12:35] will go on with this and I will make it work. [00:12:40] I have to accept.

Payman Langroudi: What other choice did you have?

Fariba Zolfaghari: There was none. No [00:12:45] other choice. Then.

Payman Langroudi: 3 or 4 years into that war started in Iran [00:12:50] with Iraq. That’s right. Is it 3 or 4 years after that?

Fariba Zolfaghari: That’s right. Yeah. That’s right.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:12:55] so you just tell me that. Did you did you feel war was on or. No. You [00:13:00] were in a big city. I mean.

Fariba Zolfaghari: In my city. It wasn’t that [00:13:05] much as other places, but the hardship was the regime. [00:13:10] Yeah. Because we weren’t allowed [00:13:15] to be free as a woman. Yeah. You had to cover [00:13:20] yourself. And I remember at one point, um, we [00:13:25] had a long, um, dress with hijab [00:13:30] with, you know, cover over your head and hair. And I was going [00:13:35] with my youngest sister, who was nine years old, just [00:13:40] to pop down to the shop and get some chocolate for her. [00:13:45] And in my mother’s road, [00:13:50] there were cyclists, the regime’s [00:13:55] soldiers, with knife going on [00:14:00] me and wanted to, you know, attack me. So [00:14:05] that was a horrible event that happened. And as [00:14:10] a result of a few other things like that, and obviously [00:14:15] no freedom of speech, no.

Payman Langroudi: Freedom, you must remember pre-revolution [00:14:20] Iran. You must have been 15, 16, 17 around even as a [00:14:25] six year old, I remember that feeling of, uh, building works everywhere, skyscrapers [00:14:30] going up and a bit like, I don’t know, now you see Dubai or Dubai or something?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Absolutely. [00:14:35]

Payman Langroudi: Optimism of a exploding economy and and so on. Do [00:14:40] you remember what was the feeling of the people around you regarding revolution? [00:14:45] Was it was the feeling optimistic at first before or. [00:14:50]

Fariba Zolfaghari: It was optimistic. It was optimistic.

Payman Langroudi: Because the Shah was a [00:14:55] dictator and that. Absolutely. But then did you not see the religious ones coming in [00:15:00] immediately?

Fariba Zolfaghari: We, we we were promised a lot of stuff. [00:15:05]

Payman Langroudi: Democracy.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah. We were promised a lot of stuff that we we [00:15:10] all believed in. And then when they got their foot [00:15:15] in Iran.

Payman Langroudi: Suddenly everything.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Changed. Everything changed to the [00:15:20] worse. Do you remember.

Payman Langroudi: The revolution itself? Do you. Do you remember? I remember a six year old [00:15:25] trying to walk in the street. And I remember Chinook, you know, the double, double helicopters flying around [00:15:30] just before the Shah left. And then? And then I remember [00:15:35] statues being pushed over, you know. Yes. Because there were a lot of statues of the show [00:15:40] around. Around the place. And then I remember the fire. [00:15:45] There was fire in the cinema. We had hundreds of people died. Yeah. And it was like a [00:15:50] moment, that moment where suddenly everything changed.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I remember everything exactly [00:15:55] as you say. And we were all so [00:16:00] terrified of what was going to happen to all of us. [00:16:05] I mean, as as a young girl. Yeah. And you were [00:16:10] fearful for your life because at any time you [00:16:15] would have been attacked either by the mullahs or the free for. [00:16:20]

Payman Langroudi: All for a bit, wasn’t.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It? Yeah. By. Yeah. By people that were fighting.

Payman Langroudi: So then [00:16:25] war broke out and you decided you’re going to try and run away. Try and try and get away from war. [00:16:30] Of course. And Sweden was the only I mean, maybe for listeners, the reason why [00:16:35] there are so many Swedish Iranian dentists is because Sweden [00:16:40] was the only country that was even thinking about allowing anyone to to run away.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Absolutely. [00:16:45] Sweden was the only country that would allow [00:16:50] you to be immigrant there, to go there.

Payman Langroudi: As refugee. [00:16:55]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Status. Every asylum seeker, asylum seeker, asylum seeker.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:17:00] tell me about that process. I mean, so you got to [00:17:05] Sweden. What was your first impressions of Sweden?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Very cold.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:17:10]

Fariba Zolfaghari: And the language was really hard to understand. Yeah. [00:17:15] It was. It is a completely different alphabets. [00:17:20] Yeah. Completely different pronunciations. And very [00:17:25] kind people. Very hospitable. We [00:17:30] were welcomed to their country and we were treated really [00:17:35] well as a family. Because I was married with a daughter who was [00:17:40] three years old.

Payman Langroudi: So now when you now that sort of immigration [00:17:45] and asylum seekers and refugees have been sort of weaponised by [00:17:50] politicians, it’s we’re in that phase of, of the cycle, right. Where, [00:17:55] where that’s become a thing again. How do you feel when when you [00:18:00] see you know, they talk about the boats coming over the, the channel [00:18:05] when you see someone on that boat, just do you, do you feel differently to the narrative [00:18:10] that they’re saying on I do on the TV?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I do absolutely, because [00:18:15] I was at one one of them in my, um, [00:18:20] younger age. I was one of them. I wanted to flee my country [00:18:25] to get to the freedom. I was one of them. So yes, [00:18:30] I feel for them. Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: So what happened next? [00:18:35]

Fariba Zolfaghari: So then I started to go to school to learn [00:18:40] the Swedish language and my degree [00:18:45] a level wasn’t approved in Sweden. So I had to go through the [00:18:50] whole A-level process again with Swedish [00:18:55] language. And I wanted to study medicine [00:19:00] because in my family we had a lot. My uncle was [00:19:05] a surgeon and my mother’s brother. They [00:19:10] both were doctors and veterinary surgeons. [00:19:15] So you know how Iranian culture is. You know, [00:19:20] it’s instilled in you that you either a dentist, doctor or [00:19:25] engineer. So I wanted to do medicine. But medicine [00:19:30] in Sweden is a very long years, and I had [00:19:35] two children, and I didn’t want to spend [00:19:40] more time outside of the house than I already [00:19:45] had done. So I chose dentistry because it’s you [00:19:50] go in the morning and you come home in the evening, and you don’t have to spend [00:19:55] in the hospital doing the shifts and doing all of the emergency [00:20:00] work. So yes, I started [00:20:05] the university school.

Payman Langroudi: And I think, you know, just to go back to the [00:20:10] asylum seeker thing for a second, I don’t want to dwell on it here, but we’ve [00:20:15] got a family member who works at UN, and she was saying that, [00:20:20] you know, when you see an asylum seeker. Often you don’t think [00:20:25] that their uncle is a surgeon. The brother is a veterinary. The you just think [00:20:30] is someone who’s running away, right? You don’t think about the actual story. And she [00:20:35] was saying she was working in Syria for a while, and she was saying the one of the heartbreaking things [00:20:40] was you’d get like a lawyer and a doctor who were married [00:20:45] and with their 11 year old kid and the 11 year old [00:20:50] kid was illiterate, didn’t know how to read and write because they were, for the [00:20:55] last four years, running around trying to just save their lives. Yeah. [00:21:00] And and you know, again, that that whole thing about the immigrant. Right. [00:21:05] You must remember in the UK when it was the single mum was the problem.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes. [00:21:10]

Payman Langroudi: Do you remember that? Were you in Sweden? Maybe.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Back then I think I was in Sweden.

Payman Langroudi: The single mum was became [00:21:15] the thing. Oh, all these people, they want to get pregnant. However, they, you know, as [00:21:20] weaponise that story, you know. And now. Now that story’s gone. Now we’ve got this [00:21:25] story weaponized. Okay, so you decided dentistry. Where [00:21:30] were you living? In Sweden. Which part of Sweden were you? In?

Fariba Zolfaghari: The north of Sweden.

Payman Langroudi: Chilly, cold.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Very cold. [00:21:35] Dark, dark. And nine months of the year you had white snow [00:21:40] all over.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s your view on the difference in the society in Sweden to here? [00:21:45]

Fariba Zolfaghari: It’s very socialist [00:21:50] over there. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So high taxes. High, high, high services. [00:21:55]

Fariba Zolfaghari: That’s right. And the equality [00:22:00] is followed. You know, wherever you [00:22:05] are, whoever you are, you’re equal to the Prime Minister. You’re equal [00:22:10] to the doctors. You’re equal to your dentist because the income, [00:22:15] it doesn’t differ much. Um, so in that aspect it’s [00:22:20] completely different to UK.

Payman Langroudi: But what does that mean day to day? Does [00:22:25] that mean that society’s like a better place to live or not or not necessarily. [00:22:30] Because here’s quite the opposite. Right here is very much based on your level in society. [00:22:35] And, um, you know, my Swedish distributor I was telling him about, [00:22:40] oh, when he came here, I said, oh, we go to so-and-so to members club. Private members club. And [00:22:45] he said, Just in Stockholm, it just wouldn’t work. No one wants to be special above the rest. Everyone [00:22:50] wants to be the same. Yeah, totally different society, right?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Absolutely. I think it [00:22:55] is a better society because then there is no competition. [00:23:00] Um, then there is no rushing, rushing, [00:23:05] rushing to get richer and get richer and get [00:23:10] to the next thing that you want to get the money, you want to get the.

Payman Langroudi: You know, [00:23:15] some people talk about socialism. They say, oh, socialism makes people not want [00:23:20] to be entrepreneurs and not want to make money or, you know, go forward. But [00:23:25] Sweden, some of the best companies in the world have come out of Sweden, right? Yes. They are in amongst all [00:23:30] of this. Yeah. Yes. Spotify or whatever. There’s several there’s several huge companies coming [00:23:35] out of Sweden. In fact, it’s a tech hub and they’ve really pulled it off. So [00:23:40] what’s the problem with Sweden? Why are you here? I mean, the [00:23:45] the.

Fariba Zolfaghari: So the reason I’m here because when I qualified in. No, no, but.

Payman Langroudi: Not not practically. [00:23:50] I mean, what’s the what’s better about here compared to Sweden?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Because you [00:23:55] can grow.

Payman Langroudi: But why can’t you grow there? You can’t, you can’t, you can’t.

Fariba Zolfaghari: No, [00:24:00] you can’t grow as you grow here.

Payman Langroudi: Can’t explain it to me. People [00:24:05] don’t put their head above the parapet. Is that is that what it is? [00:24:10]

Fariba Zolfaghari: That’s it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do people shoot people down who put their head above? Yes. You won’t get.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Anywhere.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [00:24:15] really? Really? I never knew that. And how about how about in terms of [00:24:20] the country, would you say as an immigrant, you’re more accepted there than [00:24:25] here?

Fariba Zolfaghari: You are accepted more in in Sweden. But there [00:24:30] is also the other side of the immigrants, where [00:24:35] there is a lot of racism as well in different areas in Sweden. [00:24:40]

Payman Langroudi: More than here.

Fariba Zolfaghari: No, I think equal.

Payman Langroudi: But a different character, [00:24:45] my understanding, a different character of racism. Like like someone told me, yeah, if the guy, [00:24:50] he’ll just tell you. Just tell you I don’t ride in taxis that are driven by immigrants. [00:24:55] Yeah. And he said they’re they’re just they’re totally cool with saying it. [00:25:00] Whereas here there may be racism that people just don’t talk about. Is that right? Or is that not right? [00:25:05] Well.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I’ll give you an example. In the new [00:25:10] universities, there were a lot of The Iranian studied [00:25:15] dentistry. And we found one of the professors, [00:25:20] um, that that was our teachers, [00:25:25] um, had this racism about her, [00:25:30] and it didn’t pass that easy. Iranian [00:25:35] students, and you had to be one of the best and [00:25:40] pass all her exams orally and written, uh, [00:25:45] to be able to pass that. So I think [00:25:50] it’s it’s more not an obvious racism. [00:25:55] It’s, it’s quite a hidden.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I thought it was the other way around. Oh [00:26:00] no. I guess you get both. You both.

Fariba Zolfaghari: You get both. [00:26:05] Definitely. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so then the struggle to get into dental school, is [00:26:10] it difficult? It must have been.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It is very hard.

Payman Langroudi: So you had to learn the language?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I had to [00:26:15] learn the language. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do your equivalent of A-levels in Sweden? Well, within [00:26:20] a couple of years.

Fariba Zolfaghari: That’s right. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness. And applied to dentistry and then get into [00:26:25] dentistry and then discuss biochemistry, physiology and Swedish.

Fariba Zolfaghari: In Swedish.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:26:30] did you do all of that in, in that sort of time frame? I did. Wow.

Fariba Zolfaghari: And there [00:26:35] is.

Payman Langroudi: And who was looking after the kids? I mean, what was what was the. Tell me the day to day how [00:26:40] you were studying.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah. So when when I studied, I started to study. I had [00:26:45] obviously my ex-husband. And we obviously managed in between us [00:26:50] and to take care of the children and the house chores and what have you. Was he working? [00:26:55] He was working, um, and the second year [00:27:00] I was in the, um, school university. Um, [00:27:05] obviously we had disagreements over the years, and I [00:27:10] divorce him.

Payman Langroudi: In the second year of dentistry?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes. Wow. [00:27:15] So I had my two daughters. How old were they? Um, four [00:27:20] and 11. And I had to bring them up at the [00:27:25] same time as I was studying. Um, can I ask.

Payman Langroudi: A silly, stupid [00:27:30] question? Why did you have the four year old? I know you love her and all that, but was that on purpose or by [00:27:35] mistake?

Fariba Zolfaghari: You said that again.

Payman Langroudi: Why did you have the second child?

Fariba Zolfaghari: No, that [00:27:40] was a mistake. I wanted my daughter to have a sibling.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:27:45] have someone, yes. Even though you weren’t happy in the relationship. Yes, yes.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Interesting. Because [00:27:50] I have got sisters and brothers and they are [00:27:55] always so close and supporting each other. And [00:28:00] I. Because she was my first daughter, she was seven years old. And [00:28:05] I was just thinking, if something happens to any of us, she [00:28:10] wouldn’t have anyone to be with her and support [00:28:15] her. Supporting each other. So therefore, I.

Payman Langroudi: Think the definition of love, isn’t it, [00:28:20] to put their interests in front of your own interests.

Fariba Zolfaghari: And I couldn’t imagine [00:28:25] my daughter being the only child. And [00:28:30] obviously the another reason is that I wanted the relationship to [00:28:35] work.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Okay. So by bringing [00:28:40] another child.

Payman Langroudi: You thought that would fix it?

Fariba Zolfaghari: You were hoping that. Yes, [00:28:45] that would hopefully. But do you give.

Payman Langroudi: Do you give the advice that that never fixes it? [00:28:50] It makes it worse. Right? Yes. Now there’s more stuff to do in the same nightmare [00:28:55] situation.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. But the first reason was for my daughter. [00:29:00] The second one, which is following is.

Payman Langroudi: So how did that divorce go? How did [00:29:05] that happen? How did that. Talk me through it?

Fariba Zolfaghari: What happened? Yes. So I had to divorce [00:29:10] him because we didn’t get anywhere with each other. So [00:29:15] much different personality. Because obviously, being [00:29:20] in a arranged marriage, you never chose. [00:29:25]

Payman Langroudi: Was he older than you as well?

Fariba Zolfaghari: He was. How much? 13 years older than me.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, go [00:29:30] on then.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Go on. And then, obviously, um, I decided [00:29:35] that I need to separate divorce. Um, [00:29:40] because he didn’t want me to be an independent [00:29:45] woman, be an educated woman, and, [00:29:50] um, controlling as well.

Payman Langroudi: You know, when your parents [00:29:55] recommended this guy, did they not were they not thinking around that question? Oh, [00:30:00] they didn’t judge him, right? They didn’t realise or know he became insecure [00:30:05] halfway through. Why? Why would they recommend this guy if he wasn’t?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I think they [00:30:10] went after a that. He is coming [00:30:15] from a very good family.

Payman Langroudi: They took it for granted that he would be okay after that. [00:30:20] Oh, interesting.

Fariba Zolfaghari: And obviously during the time of, um, [00:30:25] engagement, um, no one, no one will. Yeah. No [00:30:30] one will show themselves that how they are, you know, um, [00:30:35] how they will behave in, in a marriage towards your daughter.

Payman Langroudi: It talks to the current [00:30:40] situation. Being in dentistry is one of those things. If you’re a woman in dentistry, it’s very [00:30:45] possible that you’re the primary breadwinner in a family because it dentist makes good [00:30:50] money, even. By the way, hygienists come across a lot of hygienists who are the mortgage payer. [00:30:55] That’s right in their house. It talks to this question of, you know, the traditional [00:31:00] roles of, you know, man and woman. How much? How [00:31:05] many women were only staying in the relationship for financial security [00:31:10] when they actually wanted out? Number one. But number two, [00:31:15] what is the art of being a woman who [00:31:20] earns more than her partner? How do you do that with elegance? Because [00:31:25] men want respect. That’s [00:31:30] what a man wants. Respect. And if a woman earns more than the man, he’s just [00:31:35] intrinsically has lost a little bit of respect. So what [00:31:40] should the woman do or the man do to make that relationship work? [00:31:45] I think of many of I know ten people in my circle where the woman is, [00:31:50] is, is the breadwinner. I can only think of one out of the ten where they’re pulling it off. [00:31:55] What are your what are your thoughts around that?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I think love [00:32:00] Of if you.

Payman Langroudi: Love conquers all.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Conquers all. If you love [00:32:05] and respect your partner, that would never come into question. [00:32:10]

Payman Langroudi: But you do get my point.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I do.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:32:15] I mean I mean, okay. Love is all well and good, but tactically. In [00:32:20] a relationship where the woman is earning more than the man, what [00:32:25] should the woman do a little bit more or less of? To make that relationship work.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Just [00:32:30] be humble about it. Just look at it as [00:32:35] yourself. You’re treating yourself. You know it’s not a separate [00:32:40] human being from you. If that’s why you’re living together. And [00:32:45] by the.

Payman Langroudi: Way, also the way the law sees it. So tell me what happened. [00:32:50] What happened regarding that? Your divorce legally. [00:32:55]

Fariba Zolfaghari: What happened legally in Sweden? It went [00:33:00] really well.

Payman Langroudi: By the way. At this point you were just a student. You weren’t earning anything.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I wasn’t. [00:33:05] No. And it went really quickly. And, um, [00:33:10] the children stayed with me and they would go and see their father, um, [00:33:15] every couple of weeks and if, if anything, um, [00:33:20] but, um. Yeah, that that’s very easy in Sweden. [00:33:25] Um, it’s much more difficult [00:33:30] if you have got like here business together, houses together, [00:33:35] properties together.

Payman Langroudi: Which we’ll get to, I’m sure. Um, so then [00:33:40] you became a dentist?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Uneventfully. [00:33:45]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Who paid? Who paid? Did Sweden pay for that? Sweden. It’s free. [00:33:50]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Free? No, no. You get a student loan and [00:33:55] you just, um.

Payman Langroudi: Finish.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah. Payback. I’m still paying it back. [00:34:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So you became a dentist? Yes. How did that feel?

Fariba Zolfaghari: It [00:34:05] felt great. Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Must have felt.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Great.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing to go to the struggle of [00:34:10] all those things.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It was really hard because I had my two daughters. Um, [00:34:15] I didn’t sleep well because I had to study [00:34:20] night time early mornings. Because I had to take care of their school [00:34:25] work and take them to school, feed them their [00:34:30] clothing, and, you know, everything that a mother would do. Um, [00:34:35] so it was a good achievement for me. It was really [00:34:40] good. And I did it on my own. I didn’t have anyone to help me. And [00:34:45] and that’s. I am proud of myself doing [00:34:50] that should be.

Payman Langroudi: Do you now? I mean, now you’ve had your own daughters. They’ve got married. And [00:34:55] have they? Some of them. One of them, maybe. Someone got married? Yeah. You’ve had your own daughters. They’ve got married. [00:35:00] Maybe they’ve got children even. They have? Yes. Excellent. So do you have now some empathy with your [00:35:05] parents as far as as far as they were doing their best or something? [00:35:10]

Fariba Zolfaghari: I do, I do. I had quite a resentment towards my, [00:35:15] my parents because I wasn’t happy in [00:35:20] my first marriage at all. And I had the resentment towards [00:35:25] my parents. And when I got my children, [00:35:30] I started to forgive my parents for what they [00:35:35] did. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So when it came to your [00:35:40] children having getting married, for instance, were you really sort of [00:35:45] trying to overcompensate and say, it’s completely up to you? I did, [00:35:50] I don’t want to say anything about it.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I think I did to him. My first [00:35:55] daughter got married, and, um, [00:36:00] I didn’t have anything to say about it because obviously she was brought up in Sweden. [00:36:05] Yeah. Freedom. And then UK again. Freedom. Westernised, [00:36:10] um, culture, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, but it’s a funny thing. Okay. You didn’t have anything to say about [00:36:15] it, but, you know, what about what is being a parent if it’s not saying something? [00:36:20] Yeah. Like if, you know, people say, oh, I let my children do whatever they want to study themselves, [00:36:25] they can decide, all right, they’re 14 or [00:36:30] 17. They decide they’re not deciding. You still have to say something, right?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah. I think you [00:36:35] are there to guide them and direct them. But then you have [00:36:40] to let them do their own mistakes, do their own trial. Yeah. [00:36:45] And find out about the life lessons for themselves. You [00:36:50] cannot hold their hands forever.

Payman Langroudi: I want to continue with the story, but I’m [00:36:55] also really interested in the relationship with the grandchild compared to a child. [00:37:00] Like what? Apart from the obvious. What else can you like? What can [00:37:05] you what? What can you tell me about the difference between a grandchild and a child?

Fariba Zolfaghari: It [00:37:10] is amazing because you always compare them to their parents. [00:37:15] Really? Yes you do. And you remember? [00:37:20]

Payman Langroudi: They remind you. Remind you of their parents when they were kids?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Absolutely. Really? Yeah. And it [00:37:25] is like they’re they’re more dear [00:37:30] than even your your children.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I know that that I know. [00:37:35] And you don’t even get a hello anymore straight around me to my kids. [00:37:40] But but also, I think that the most beautiful thing about having children probably, [00:37:45] is that the relationship between your parent and your child.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Absolutely. Solutely. It’s, [00:37:50] um. We, me and my two daughters. We have an amazing relationship [00:37:55] because I was really young when I got my first child, and [00:38:00] again, young when I got my second one. And because [00:38:05] they have seen my struggles through life [00:38:10] and they have always been with me and [00:38:15] I had to have them, um, safe in a safety always, [00:38:20] and drag them everywhere with myself. And so we [00:38:25] are very close.

Payman Langroudi: Are they dentists?

Fariba Zolfaghari: No. And no. One of them is [00:38:30] a lawyer and the other one is working for [00:38:35] insurance in America.

Payman Langroudi: Did you not think then did you say dentist [00:38:40] or you were there? Was there any chance that they were.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Going to be? My first daughter hated [00:38:45] university school, So she [00:38:50] was really artistic and she went to be a very famous [00:38:55] hairdresser in, in my city, Norwich. [00:39:00] Then she fell in love with an American guy and she moved to America. And [00:39:05] then she fell pregnant. She was a [00:39:10] house mom, a housewife, and she [00:39:15] didn’t train to be an insurance, uh, broker [00:39:20] in America and working for medical insurance. [00:39:25] And, um, my second daughter, [00:39:30] um, she went to be, uh, a doctor [00:39:35] in medicine, and. But she came [00:39:40] back from America. She went to America to study, and, um, [00:39:45] she came back and said, do you know, mom, I will study this medicine [00:39:50] and I will graduate. I get my license, I will give it to you, [00:39:55] but it is not for me. I said, [00:40:00] no, you don’t have to study. You don’t have to struggle. You [00:40:05] study what you want to, but you need to study something. And [00:40:10] she said, okay, I go down [00:40:15] the road of being a lawyer. So she studied really hard and [00:40:20] very successful. And she now. [00:40:25]

Payman Langroudi: Was a corporate.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Lawyer. Yes, for American Firm. Well, for a few [00:40:30] years. And, um, she worked really hard. There [00:40:35] was really long hours up to morning deadlines. Yeah. [00:40:40] So she was fed up with the corporate life. [00:40:45] Yeah. Um. And now she has opened her own business. [00:40:50] Dog grooming and dog care business in, um, [00:40:55] Battersea in London.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah. And, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Thriving. [00:41:00]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Amazing. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So then what happened next in your in your Dental career, then [00:41:05] you became a dentist.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I qualified, um, 97, and [00:41:10] there was no work for me in Sweden.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, there were too many dentists.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Too [00:41:15] many dentists. So that’s why so many? Yeah. In UK. Yeah. And at that time, [00:41:20] UK had a shortage of dentists. So, um, I came to [00:41:25] UK and I started working in Norwich as [00:41:30] an associate. Um, how did you end.

Payman Langroudi: Up in Norwich? Because that’s where you got [00:41:35] the job? Yes.

Fariba Zolfaghari: And I came first for an interview in, [00:41:40] in a few cities, obviously, Beccles and Beccles and Norwich and Norwich. [00:41:45] I was accepted as an associate and I liked the [00:41:50] practice and it was a smaller city. Being a single [00:41:55] mom with two children, two daughters, I didn’t want to move to bigger cities [00:42:00] and to have a better control of bringing up my children. [00:42:05] And so I chose. I chose to be in Norwich. And yeah, [00:42:10] I started working and it was really hard for.

Payman Langroudi: Was that the [00:42:15] first time you’d worked as a dentist was in the UK? Yes. Oh, so you didn’t work at all in Sweden? [00:42:20] No. Did you have. You didn’t have to vote though.

Fariba Zolfaghari: In Sweden. Yeah, you have to.

Payman Langroudi: Oh [00:42:25] you have. You didn’t have to when you came here.

Fariba Zolfaghari: In here. No, no. You just registered [00:42:30] with the NHS. That was mixed practice.

Payman Langroudi: So did you find that very [00:42:35] third world compared to what you must, must have compared to university?

Fariba Zolfaghari: It was completely different. [00:42:40] Yes. Compared to Swedish.

Payman Langroudi: System. Plus you were in the [00:42:45] university there? Yes. So then. So then how many years did you stick at that?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Uh, two and a half years. [00:42:50] I was an associate. And together with [00:42:55] the ex-partner, who was my [00:43:00] business partner as well, we started this practice in [00:43:05] Norwich. Yes. Yeah. Squad.

Payman Langroudi: 2000.

Fariba Zolfaghari: In year 2000, [00:43:10] with one surgery. Started with one surgery.

Payman Langroudi: So this. This [00:43:15] partner though was who?

Fariba Zolfaghari: This partner was the [00:43:20] brother of the owner of the practice. I [00:43:25] worked as an associate. Oh. So, um, [00:43:30] we got introduced and we [00:43:35] started to date and liked each other [00:43:40] and started to planning a life together. And [00:43:45] um, yeah, we then started living together and decided, [00:43:50] um, that obviously he had a business in Sweden. He was [00:43:55] also living in Sweden and moved to UK.

Payman Langroudi: Was he a dentist?

Fariba Zolfaghari: He wasn’t.

Payman Langroudi: No. Okay. [00:44:00] So he said, let’s open a practice. The two of.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Us. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And a squat [00:44:05] practice at that? Yeah. Quite difficult idea. Very difficult. On purpose or by mistake. Did [00:44:10] you know what you were getting yourself into? No. So you just went, like, let’s open a brand new business. That optimism [00:44:15] of.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Entrepreneurship.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I was never in, um, [00:44:20] to opening my own practice that early of my career. [00:44:25] He was into it, but he was into it, and obviously I was with [00:44:30] him. Yeah. Um. And I said yes.

Payman Langroudi: How did you feel? Like scared or excited [00:44:35] or both.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Very Get a lot of investment. [00:44:40] Yeah. Um. Very scared.

Payman Langroudi: Whether there’s money you’d saved all the way through, like those [00:44:45] as a dentist and all that?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes, absolutely. And, uh, [00:44:50] very scared to begin with. Didn’t know what’s going to happen with people in that, [00:44:55] uh, village is going to accept me as a new dentist [00:45:00] coming into their community.

Payman Langroudi: Is it kind of on the outskirts of Norwich?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes. That’s right. [00:45:05]

Payman Langroudi: Okay. But, uh. Found the place.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Found the place.

Payman Langroudi: Did the planning. [00:45:10]

Fariba Zolfaghari: And all the planning.

Payman Langroudi: Brought in the.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Equipment?

Payman Langroudi: Yes, absolutely. It’s a pretty place. I’ve seen pictures. [00:45:15] It’s a pretty.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Place. It’s beautiful now. It’s beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: It wasn’t purpose built, [00:45:20] was it? Was it? It almost looks purpose built. Like. It doesn’t look like the normal thing.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It was a bungalow.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [00:45:25] it was a bungalow.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It was a bungalow that we converted. And, uh.

Payman Langroudi: And so how many chairs was it [00:45:30] on? That? Was it one chair?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Just one surgery for me to start with.

Payman Langroudi: So, [00:45:35] are you still in the same building?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I am still in the same building, but.

Payman Langroudi: Had scope to turn to eight. [00:45:40] Were you thinking about growing?

Fariba Zolfaghari: No. As the year went [00:45:45] and my patient base grew and my workload was [00:45:50] getting heavier, then we decided to open one surgery after one surgery [00:45:55] each year. Up to now that is eight surgeries [00:46:00] in the same building. And [00:46:05] it was really hard.

Payman Langroudi: And obviously we were sinking every penny [00:46:10] back into it in a way.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: To get it, to get it to grow like.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Where, where it is. [00:46:15] And I still do, I still do, I still.

Payman Langroudi: Do, I still do. So then at what point was there [00:46:20] an issue with this guy? How many how many chairs in. So [00:46:25] were you eight chairs in.

Fariba Zolfaghari: We are eight chairs in. Um, [00:46:30] year 2013. December. [00:46:35]

Payman Langroudi: 13 years into the practice.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah. [00:46:40] I had an awakening because [00:46:45] I was living with a narcissistic person, [00:46:50] controlling, abusing mentally and emotionally. And [00:46:55] to begin with, physically. Yeah. Um, [00:47:00] for over that period of time between 99 [00:47:05] to the end of 2013. [00:47:10] And it was nothing left of me. Um, [00:47:15] emotionally, I was like, so depressed. [00:47:20]

Payman Langroudi: And these days we call it narcissism and all that. But back then, [00:47:25] what were you thinking? What was you weren’t thinking? He’s a narcissistic personality. No. You kind of blaming yourself [00:47:30] or these sort of Of things.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Very controlling, very controlling, [00:47:35] and to the point that I wasn’t even allowed to go [00:47:40] and visit my sisters. Oh, this is.

Payman Langroudi: Going to sound like a really [00:47:45] stupid question. Yeah, but do you think there’s something about you that attracts controlling?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I [00:47:50] think so. Go on. My childhood. Really? [00:47:55] My childhood. My father was very [00:48:00] old fashioned man, and [00:48:05] he was abusive towards my mum and my brother. And [00:48:10] I think something must have. I have blocked out quite a lot from my [00:48:15] childhood at that time, living with my own parents. And [00:48:20] I think something from that time that is in here [00:48:25] that has caused that I attract in these people. [00:48:30] Paper.

[TRANSITION]: Wow.

Payman Langroudi: So what [00:48:35] gave you the sort of. Not the strength, but, like, what was the the stimulus [00:48:40] for you thinking? You said awakening. What was it? What was that moment? What was.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It? That [00:48:45] moment? The veil was going to be taken [00:48:50] away from, lifted, lifted from me, and everything [00:48:55] was going to be revealed. And I knew that my [00:49:00] soul was suffering. I was crying within. [00:49:05] But no one knew what was happening with me. [00:49:10] But I was not happy inside because I [00:49:15] sacrificed everything in life for somebody who repeatedly [00:49:20] cheated on me, repeatedly stole from me, repeatedly [00:49:25] controlling in me. Name calling. And [00:49:30] not even letting my own [00:49:35] family. Being welcomed to my house, you know. So [00:49:40] at the end, there was just a wall. And I started to [00:49:45] study about this kind of personality. And [00:49:50] the name of narcissistic personality came up. And and [00:49:55] I then searched to see how to deal with this. One [00:50:00] day I had to do it. I [00:50:05] just took my suitcase. You had enough, I had enough. There was nothing left. [00:50:10] Nothing left because he was cheating at the same time, [00:50:15] right before I left. Um. And I [00:50:20] had found out. But he denied it, and that [00:50:25] was it. I had enough, and I took my [00:50:30] suitcase, my dogs and I went. And [00:50:35] I said to my family, even if [00:50:40] I have to lose everything, I will start again. I [00:50:45] do not want this life with.

Payman Langroudi: Him, with the kids grown up by this.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Time. [00:50:50] Yes. So my youngest one at that time lived [00:50:55] in London, going to college, university and my oldest one [00:51:00] of obesity. She was married in America. So they were in safe places.

Payman Langroudi: So. [00:51:05] I [00:51:10] mean, it’s a scary moment, right, to to make a change [00:51:15] like that. But but also like a moment that sort of gives you energy to [00:51:20] be become yourself, right?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Become you to find yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Find yourself. Here. Um, [00:51:25] how did it go? What happened next?

Fariba Zolfaghari: So [00:51:30] then I was homeless, and I had to [00:51:35] commute in between, um, holiday cottages until [00:51:40] I found a house where I could have my dogs [00:51:45] with me. I had three dogs at that time, and it was [00:51:50] a countryside about 4 to 5 minutes away from [00:51:55] the practice. And I lived there for about a year. [00:52:00] And then they wanted their house back, um, [00:52:05] for certain reasons. Grandma. Their their mother. [00:52:10] So then I decided, okay, I need to also live [00:52:15] closer to the, um, practice then, uh, [00:52:20] I looked for a room share. But [00:52:25] I couldn’t have my dogs, so I had to get my [00:52:30] two Lhasa apsos that I had for 13 [00:52:35] years to give them up. And that day, [00:52:40] me and my daughter. It [00:52:45] was like somebody dead. Somebody died. [00:52:50] It was. It was like we lost. One [00:52:55] of our family. Mom or dad? And we were both [00:53:00] devastated that I had to do this to survive. You know, I [00:53:05] had to still be living somewhere. And. And one of my dogs, [00:53:10] um, was living with one of my friend [00:53:15] who kindly took care of him. And, Yes. [00:53:20] So I lived in that house for another shared [00:53:25] house for another year. And then that lady wanted [00:53:30] the room back after a year. And how [00:53:35] did you feel?

Payman Langroudi: Did you feel like a failure or something? How did you feel at [00:53:40] that point? You know, it’s a strange.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It was really lonely. [00:53:45] Yeah. Even though if I had, um, my family, [00:53:50] sisters and good supportive system, I [00:53:55] really felt lonely. And I felt from having everything. [00:54:00] Yeah. Doing, um, everything that I wanted. [00:54:05] I had a beautiful car, beautiful house, um, many properties. [00:54:10] And my practice obviously growing nicely, [00:54:15] I felt homeless, I felt lonely. [00:54:20] I felt that there is no [00:54:25] end to this. And. But I still didn’t want to go back to [00:54:30] how I lived before. In a way, [00:54:35] I was finding myself back to myself. And [00:54:40] that time was good because it gave me a lot of lonely [00:54:45] time. Alone time to find myself.

Payman Langroudi: Process everything.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Process [00:54:50] everything. Why I did accept. I did put up with [00:54:55] this and trying to find myself questioning myself. And [00:55:00] um, yeah, it was really, really hard. Really hard. [00:55:05]

Payman Langroudi: So what happened to the arrangements regarding the practice or the [00:55:10] properties? And were you continuing to work as in the practice during this period [00:55:15] as well?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I did, Um, continue working [00:55:20] as I did usual. But unfortunately, because, um, [00:55:25] when you’re dealing with the lawyers, you have to pay in advance. [00:55:30] And I wasn’t allowed to withdraw from the practice because [00:55:35] of what happened. And I had to work in other practices [00:55:40] as an associate. And they all said, why? Why do [00:55:45] you do that? And I had to say, what’s going on in my life? And I needed money. I needed [00:55:50] to work to provide for the law.

Payman Langroudi: Lawyers are [00:55:55] expensive.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Expenses. And, uh, [00:56:00] to a point that, um, he I thought that [00:56:05] is it. We’re going to go through the legal. Process [00:56:10] and we separate, um, in calm and peace. [00:56:15] But no, he wouldn’t stop.

Payman Langroudi: Well, narcissist [00:56:20] doesn’t like being shown up, right? It’s one of the one of the features of being [00:56:25] a narcissist that you explode if they’re sort of showing up. Um, [00:56:30] but it’s a difficult thing. The law is a ridiculous thing, really, because [00:56:35] at the time, where you need it most, right? Is where [00:56:40] you can’t afford to hire the best lawyer.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like, it’s when you’re [00:56:45] financially in trouble that you need the best lawyer, but the best lawyer is so expensive that. [00:56:50] And if anyone hasn’t been in a legal situation, if you ever get [00:56:55] into a legal situation, the truth will not come out because it’s a legal situation that that’s [00:57:00] not the case at all. No more, I’d say. I mean, just on a [00:57:05] stupid level. I would say the person with the better lawyer will win. As simple as that, you [00:57:10] know? Yes. Uh, some people say. Yeah, always make sure your lawyer comes from a bigger firm [00:57:15] than the the the opposition’s. Yeah. Absolutely true.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Absolutely true. [00:57:20] Yes, I agree with that 100%.

Payman Langroudi: So a nightmare situation. And so what happened financially?

Fariba Zolfaghari: What happened [00:57:25] financially? Um, it was really I was in [00:57:30] debt to my lawyers. Um, I still carried on working [00:57:35] as hard as I could. Um. And pay.

Payman Langroudi: Did you end up with half of [00:57:40] the practice?

Fariba Zolfaghari: What happened? So that’s, um, [00:57:45] when this legal process were going on. Um, [00:57:50] as I said, it was on the rock bottom. The rock bottom [00:57:55] came back again with him [00:58:00] wanting to take me to the GDC. Oh, man. [00:58:05] So he and [00:58:10] his sister Falsified records. Wow. [00:58:15] Presented it to the GDC. Wow.

Payman Langroudi: Like what? What did they [00:58:20] say?

Fariba Zolfaghari: So one of them is a lot of accusations. [00:58:25] It was a big accusation. Obviously, they [00:58:30] were starting from when I started as an associate in that [00:58:35] other practice where his sister was the owner. And [00:58:40] then it carried on from when we opened my own practice. It [00:58:45] was a book of accusations, [00:58:50] um, the falsification of the records where they [00:58:55] had a, you know, one of those Brown record. Yeah. [00:59:00] Pre-computer. Yes. Nhs card. Nhs cards? Yeah. [00:59:05] They presented it full page. H. And [00:59:10] then I had to prove that this is not [00:59:15] my handwriting, because I didn’t treat him in that practice. I treated him [00:59:20] in my own practice. I had to go back to the nurse [00:59:25] that I had at that time, who is actually [00:59:30] a good friend of mine, and show [00:59:35] her the record. And she said, this is [00:59:40] written with one pen. And [00:59:45] one handwriting. Firstly, this [00:59:50] is not my handwriting. Secondly, how on earth [00:59:55] can one practice have all of this record [01:00:00] written during a couple of years with one pen? Yeah. [01:00:05] So David wrote that Without evidence. But [01:00:10] she got away with that. She was never [01:00:15] questioned by the GDC.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny situation, isn’t it? It’s a funny [01:00:20] situation. This is the sister of your ex?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so [01:00:25] overall, the GDC nightmare lasted. How long?

Fariba Zolfaghari: 18 months.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:00:30] did you manage to prove everything?

Fariba Zolfaghari: 18 months. On the court hearing after [01:00:35] I brought many, many evidence, um, to [01:00:40] be witnessed on like zoom and the GDC [01:00:45] said to him that you are after discrediting this [01:00:50] lady. So you declared me innocent. [01:00:55] Wow. And he didn’t get anything?

Payman Langroudi: Nothing came of [01:01:00] nothing for him.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Nothing? Nothing.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a silly system, really.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Nothing. 18 [01:01:05] Months and you can worry. You can imagine a [01:01:10] booklet that you have of accusations. So you must.

Payman Langroudi: Have like a whole mass [01:01:15] of papers on this.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I did, and I had a very good [01:01:20] barrister, a very good barrister, and took all [01:01:25] the words out and proved the innocence.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:01:30] the GDC thing got out of the way. You must have felt so much lighter.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I did, [01:01:35] and I did.

Payman Langroudi: Found yourself for a short time I thought it was all going to get great. [01:01:40] Now go on.

Fariba Zolfaghari: For a short time. I was relieved and I [01:01:45] thought, okay, we need to get rid of all of this legal [01:01:50] process going on with the properties, the business shareholders [01:01:55] and everything that was going with [01:02:00] it. Um, there was a demand for a [01:02:05] partial payment for his share of the business because he [01:02:10] was a shareholder and which my lawyer [01:02:15] unfortunately ignored. And therefore it [01:02:20] was a court hearing about that [01:02:25] payment. And my lawyer said to me, it [01:02:30] won’t go anywhere because you are asset rich and you are waiting [01:02:35] for everything to be sold to pay him for his share. And [01:02:40] so it won’t go anywhere, so do not worry. It [01:02:45] was 1:00 the court hearing and he said, you don’t [01:02:50] need to come. I’ll go and represent you. 1:00 120 [01:02:55] he called me. I was at work lunchtime [01:03:00] and he said, I’m sorry, Fariba, I [01:03:05] couldn’t do anything. You were declared bankrupt.

Payman Langroudi: Well. [01:03:10] What did it practically mean? [01:03:15] What did that mean?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I didn’t know what it meant at that [01:03:20] time, but it means that you [01:03:25] no longer are allowed to be in that premises and work [01:03:30] as a director, as a dentist in that practice. And you’re losing [01:03:35] everything that you have. You have to give up every everything you [01:03:40] have assets wise.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Fariba Zolfaghari: So [01:03:45] that was. The [01:03:50] moment that within just 20 minutes, [01:03:55] your life. Upside [01:04:00] Sundown completely. You lose everything. I lost everything just [01:04:05] 20 minutes after the show.

Payman Langroudi: Because every [01:04:10] contract says on it. If in the event of bankruptcy, everything’s all the bets are off. So [01:04:15] go on. What happened then? What happened?

Fariba Zolfaghari: So the whole process, [01:04:20] um, I had to go to have a official receiver. Um, [01:04:25] and I had to go and interview with her and explain what [01:04:30] has happened, and, and that I, um, unfortunately, if my [01:04:35] lawyer before the judge make the declaration [01:04:40] called me and said, can you afford to pay this amount of money [01:04:45] because otherwise they’re going to declare you bankrupt? I would have [01:04:50] I had the money, I could have paid it. And I think the [01:04:55] official receivers, they she was on the pressure [01:05:00] on the other side. They wanted to put everything onto a trust, and [01:05:05] that would have been the end of everything. She refused. [01:05:10] Wow. Because I said to her that I’m going to find [01:05:15] this money because I was not allowed to access my account [01:05:20] anymore any longer. And I begged [01:05:25] her and asked her to give me a little bit of time to find this money. Finally, [01:05:30] after [01:05:35] trying me and my partner trying different [01:05:40] people, they come to my mind that [01:05:45] I need to reach to one of my patients who I [01:05:50] knew for a long, long time and explain [01:05:55] what has happened to me and I needed £200,000. [01:06:00]

Payman Langroudi: Who was he? A rich guy?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes. [01:06:05]

Payman Langroudi: What did you say? Did you?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I explained. Explain what?

Payman Langroudi: You went for [01:06:10] a coffee? No. During the examination.

Fariba Zolfaghari: On [01:06:15] the phone first. Well. And then we met [01:06:20] him with my partner face to face, obviously. And the [01:06:25] lawyer? Because he accepted on the phone. And then we arranged with the [01:06:30] lawyer to have a written contract, obviously, that he is lending me the money [01:06:35] that I had to return when within a certain date, which [01:06:40] we signed. And after three months, [01:06:45] I managed to get the money and rescind [01:06:50] the bankruptcy. Wow. And the [01:06:55] judge who dealt with the bankruptcy, [01:07:00] rescinding the bankruptcy, said to me, [01:07:05] this should have never happened.

Payman Langroudi: Your lawyer was rubbish.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes. [01:07:10]

Payman Langroudi: Like I just said, yes, I’ve been in that situation too.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Not [01:07:15] one of the cheapest.

Payman Langroudi: No no, no. Just not the one. The best.

Fariba Zolfaghari: One of the. Not one of the best.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:07:20] It’s funny, man. It’s a it’s a it’s a terrible, terrible, [01:07:25] terrible story. Up to that point. It’s a terrible story up to that point. [01:07:30] But so now that answers the the initial question I asked about why [01:07:35] you’re so busy getting good because you’ve been through these stresses to [01:07:40] get to the point. So then okay, so now you had your assets [01:07:45] again or half of your assets again.

Fariba Zolfaghari: No. Um, so everything [01:07:50] went back to the usual thing. The obviously 5,050% [01:07:55] of everything had to go to him or I had to [01:08:00] buy him out.

Payman Langroudi: So you did you let him have the houses or whatever, and you kept [01:08:05] the practice, whatever it was? Yes. Then you must have felt amazing right at this point.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It [01:08:10] was amazing. It was amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Fantastic.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Finally, [01:08:15] after seven years. What’s that?

Payman Langroudi: 2014?

Fariba Zolfaghari: That was, [01:08:20] um, from it took 20. From 2014 to [01:08:25] 2019.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. [01:08:30] So then 2019 Covid 19 Covid happened. [01:08:35]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Covid happened.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. Yes.

Fariba Zolfaghari: And I had to deal with that as well.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:08:40] then there was the growth after Covid. Exactly. Which was amazing.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It was amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:08:45] For all of us. What a story. What a story. A beautiful story [01:08:50] in a way. Um, but the resilience. Really, really, really look up [01:08:55] to you. Now let’s talk about your current practice. What is it? What’s the setup?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Is [01:09:00] a private practice. We converted to private from [01:09:05] being a mixed dental practice. Um, this year.

Payman Langroudi: Or this year? [01:09:10] This year? Really? Congratulations.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Thank you. And everyone [01:09:15] is thriving and practices.

Payman Langroudi: Did you have someone hold your hand? Yes. [01:09:20] What? Practice. Practice plan.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Practice plan.

Payman Langroudi: And so they sort of put letters. [01:09:25]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Absolutely. They do.

Payman Langroudi: How to talk to patients? Yes. And then did you have a number [01:09:30] of patients that you had to keep and the number that if they left you’d be okay. And that. [01:09:35]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Sort of. That’s right. There were all these calculations going on.

Payman Langroudi: So what happened was the actual situation [01:09:40] better than.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Much better than I.

Payman Langroudi: Thought. So your patients were understanding [01:09:45] of it. And so what would be your tips? What would be your top tip regarding this [01:09:50] the subject, there must have been an element of nervousness, right? Of going fully private. What [01:09:55] will people say? What will the staff say? Tell me. Give me tips.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It was really hard [01:10:00] for me, obviously, to take that decision and take the leap [01:10:05] of faith and believe and trust that [01:10:10] practice over 24 years had [01:10:15] been established and people knew about our ethos of [01:10:20] the practice, how it’s run, it’s a family practice. Yeah. And [01:10:25] that they would want to stay [01:10:30] with the practice that they have been. The children have been with us for many, [01:10:35] many years, but it was a scary and practice [01:10:40] plan helped us to convert. And, um, [01:10:45] every day, every moment I looked at the amount of people who [01:10:50] signed up, and it grew and grew. And to the [01:10:55] final point that we started January all being private. [01:11:00] It was a scary. Some people obviously didn’t like it because as [01:11:05] I said this, 20 fours of being NHS mixed practice. [01:11:10] You can imagine the amount of patients we had. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Did you convince the [01:11:15] staff.

Fariba Zolfaghari: They were happy?

Payman Langroudi: Every part of the staff bought in before [01:11:20] you made the announcement?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes, they were all on board.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:11:25] practice plan tell you to do that? Or was that instinctively you knew that?

Fariba Zolfaghari: No, no, I knew that they [01:11:30] would, because there would.

Payman Langroudi: Be they could see what it was like in the mixed system. [01:11:35] Right? Yeah.

Fariba Zolfaghari: They would benefit with that. Obviously they knew that it would be [01:11:40] a better working environment, working environment, wages, [01:11:45] Benefits and calm environment. You know, NHS [01:11:50] practices can be really stressful and chaotic, especially [01:11:55] a large practice with a large contract that we had.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:12:00] and so you the giving up of that contract, like what amount of money was that contract [01:12:05] per year?

Fariba Zolfaghari: It was, uh, almost over £1 million. [01:12:10]

Payman Langroudi: That must have been the scary bit, right? It was the where’s this million pounds going to come from [01:12:15] to pay everyone and.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So, uh, we [01:12:20] already had a lot of private, I guess.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes. Not a lot. [01:12:25]

Payman Langroudi: Not a lot. So were you planning, knowing that you were [01:12:30] going to lose the million? Were you planning that you were going to expand private? Do [01:12:35] marketing? What were you planning?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Marketing obviously helped [01:12:40] a lot. And just Explaining [01:12:45] for the patients what it entails. If they signed up for [01:12:50] practice plan because they came and sat in the practice. People [01:12:55] were queuing to sign up, you know, and.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:13:00] and I mean, I haven’t been part of it for a long time, but practice plan is that just [01:13:05] they pay monthly and they get exams and scale.

Fariba Zolfaghari: That’s right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And then everything else, they pay, [01:13:10] but they get a discount.

Fariba Zolfaghari: That’s right. They they get two check-ups and they get the [01:13:15] it’s different plans and one to, uh, you can choose to [01:13:20] have four times a year hygienist.

Payman Langroudi: And did you give option [01:13:25] that option and the pay as you go option as well. Well or did you just push everyone [01:13:30] into insurance?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Exactly. We wanted everyone to sign [01:13:35] for the practice plan for a membership because.

Payman Langroudi: That keeps them stuck to [01:13:40] you.

Fariba Zolfaghari: That’s right. And that is a monthly regular income that you could. [01:13:45]

Payman Langroudi: Relax.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Pandemic. You could rely on [01:13:50] every month, you know. Oh, by the way.

Payman Langroudi: I bet you had a great NHS time during the pandemic. That must have been [01:13:55] fun. Um, funny. Funny. I’m talking about financially.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It [01:14:00] was. It was.

Payman Langroudi: That’s when the private practice really suffered, right?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I know it was okay [01:14:05] for us. Luckily, um, because we were able to pay our dentists [01:14:10] and pay wages for the employees and get [01:14:15] the practice pay for all the commitments that we had, [01:14:20] um, and keep, keep us going.

Payman Langroudi: So now, in [01:14:25] the, in this private environment, what are you offering? What are the services are [01:14:30] you doing?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Implants are you doing are offering implants? Um. [01:14:35]

Payman Langroudi: Is that is that, you know?

Fariba Zolfaghari: No, no, I have got an implant ologist. Who [01:14:40] is very good and she provides implant [01:14:45] and author. Author is myself, Invisalign, Invisalign [01:14:50] in myself and cosmetic dentistry and a full [01:14:55] mouth rehabilitation. Is that you? Yeah. That’s me.

Payman Langroudi: So have you trained? You’ve. Obviously. [01:15:00] You’ve been going to courses. Yeah.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah, for many, many years. Yeah, yeah. And, [01:15:05] uh, obviously we still have got good general dentists [01:15:10] at the practice, and I now just take [01:15:15] internal referrals only. So I don’t do any [01:15:20] of general dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Are you doing Invisalign the whole time?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Invisalign and [01:15:25] cosmetic dentistry. I do also indoor.

Payman Langroudi: You do your own [01:15:30] indoor?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes. God.

Payman Langroudi: Well done. Well done.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I love it.

Payman Langroudi: Which [01:15:35] bit do you hate? Which treatment do you hate? What do you do you hate?

Fariba Zolfaghari: And what [01:15:40] do. What do I hate? Yeah. I don’t hate any of blood. I [01:15:45] don’t mind the blood, but I wouldn’t like to [01:15:50] do implant.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But blood. I mean, I don’t mind wisdom teeth and stuff like that, so.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I [01:15:55] don’t do that.

Payman Langroudi: No flaps. Do you ever make a flap?

Fariba Zolfaghari: No. I have got [01:16:00] a water laser. Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Have you? Yes. Oh. Have you?

Fariba Zolfaghari: So, um, anything [01:16:05] that needs.

Payman Langroudi: And from the ortho perspective, my [01:16:10] wife does a lot of Invisalign as well. And, you know, everyone’s trying to do [01:16:15] a lot of aligners, right? It’s a funny situation insomuch as now we’re [01:16:20] doing it ourselves with generalists are doing doing it ourselves. But if you’re [01:16:25] so specialised in on it that you’re getting internal referrals. What was your ortho education? [01:16:30] I mean, did you have a strong base to start with in Sweden compared to here? And then [01:16:35] you kept going somehow or. No.

Fariba Zolfaghari: No, I, I am, um, [01:16:40] qualified master’s degree in orthodontics from Warwick University. [01:16:45] Oh, you did that in UK? Yeah. And currently I’m doing a diploma in [01:16:50] aligner in Aligner Dental Academy. [01:16:55] A diploma in that. So I have been using [01:17:00] fixed orthodontics since 2010. Since then. [01:17:05] Since then. But since.

Payman Langroudi: 2026 months. Smiles. Type or [01:17:10] actual? Real fix. Actual. So where did you learn how to do that?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Warwick Warwick.

Payman Langroudi: University. [01:17:15] Oh, is your Warwick thing was before that? Yes. Oh I see, I see. I did that too. [01:17:20] But the guy who does our, um, composite lecturing. He did.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah, I know he’s he’s amazing. [01:17:25] And, um, so I used to do the fixed [01:17:30] with, um, a system American system. Damon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Damon. [01:17:35] Cue system. And since 2020, I started with Invisalign.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:17:40] really? So quite late compared to.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah, but I used to do clear step, if you remember.

Payman Langroudi: I remember [01:17:45] clear step.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah. It didn’t last very long. Um, [01:17:50] and once they stopped, obviously I stopped and I [01:17:55] carried on with the fix still. And, uh, since 2020, um, [01:18:00] obviously, I bought Itero. And then since then, um, [01:18:05] Invisalign. Invisalign started since then.

Payman Langroudi: And so [01:18:10] the clinicians is it’s you. And you said the general [01:18:15] associates.

Fariba Zolfaghari: They are. How many.

Payman Langroudi: Humans? How many humans? [01:18:20]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Uh, we are eight of us. So it’s. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: How many humans? How many. [01:18:25]

Fariba Zolfaghari: People? How many people of dentists, you mean? No, people. People. I would say [01:18:30] I have got around about That 1516 employee [01:18:35] and dentist run about seven.

Payman Langroudi: Big [01:18:40] practice.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Is a big.

Payman Langroudi: Practice. A lot going on.

Fariba Zolfaghari: A lot going.

Payman Langroudi: Manager.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I’ve [01:18:45] got two.

Payman Langroudi: Two and opening hours.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Monday to Friday, 830 [01:18:50] to 530.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you haven’t done the 8 to 2. 2 to 8.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Exactly. [01:18:55] We are going to start with that next. Next year. Yeah. Because [01:19:00] I think it will benefit the practice because some of the [01:19:05] patients are working and dealing with the school run and children. So [01:19:10] it’s more convenient to come in the evening rather than taking [01:19:15] a day off or a morning off.

Payman Langroudi: And do you do things like facial aesthetics?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I [01:19:20] used to.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t like it?

Fariba Zolfaghari: No.

Payman Langroudi: Someone else doesn’t do it.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes, [01:19:25] I have got.

Payman Langroudi: Someone doing.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It. Two associates of mine who do [01:19:30] that.

Payman Langroudi: So from a growth perspective, like as far as like what other services [01:19:35] you might start, what’s on your list? Because on my list, if I was in [01:19:40] your situation, my next thing that I would try and open up is kids [01:19:45] Private Ortho.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Well, it’s open at the moment.

Payman Langroudi: You do a lot. [01:19:50]

Fariba Zolfaghari: No.

Payman Langroudi: So I think kids private ortho is a big growth area. [01:19:55] Big growth area.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It is. But I think people are [01:20:00] still adamant to be referred as an NHS to get it [01:20:05] free of charge.

Payman Langroudi: So many, many don’t qualify number one. Yeah. Yeah. That’s that’s the first thing. The [01:20:10] ones who do qualify, it takes time. Yeah. Yeah. And you’ve had kids. You’ve [01:20:15] had kids. You just. You had a kid even though you didn’t want to have a kid. Because for the other kid. Yeah. [01:20:20] Yeah. So like, what I was saying is like, it’s just [01:20:25] it’s just such an easy win. It’s such an easy win. And one thing you’ve got to Remember, [01:20:30] one thing I’ve got to keep remembering as well is it doesn’t take that many kids [01:20:35] to private Ortho’s here to get one orthodontist very [01:20:40] busy. It’s a very interesting idea that, you know. How many do you need? Yeah. [01:20:45] 100. 100 people?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah, probably. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: If 100 [01:20:50] children came to your clinic at £4,000 each. Yeah. That’s [01:20:55] £400,000 of ortho. Yeah. And convincing 100 people to [01:21:00] have have it done right. Yeah. Not hard. Not hard. It really is. I [01:21:05] just really think that’s a massive growth area.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Something to think about.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And then with adds [01:21:10] my, my partner Prav my partner on the podcast Prav, he does those targets [01:21:15] ads around the private schools within five mile radius of people [01:21:20] who earn over £250,000 or whatever as a, as a couple. Yeah. And only [01:21:25] those people see the ads. You know, it’s. Oh, wow. But you know what I mean. In [01:21:30] Norwich, there is a guy who owns the shopping centre, [01:21:35] and there’s a guy who owns the Mercedes showroom, and there’s the guy who owns a chain of [01:21:40] Greek restaurants, and there’s the guy who you only need 100 of those [01:21:45] to send you their kids and grandkids.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: For for [01:21:50] a brilliant business. You know, a brilliant business. What’s on your radar as far as you know, the next [01:21:55] thing you want to do. I guess there’s no more space to add any more chairs.

Fariba Zolfaghari: There isn’t, I’m afraid. [01:22:00]

Payman Langroudi: No. Are you thinking of a second one?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Um, no.

Payman Langroudi: No [01:22:05] one perfect place. You’re trying to make it perfect.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I think. Exactly. [01:22:10] I tried to get that practice to be. Obviously it is [01:22:15] at the moment. It’s one of the best practices in the whole Norfolk. Um, we [01:22:20] actually one of the few practices that are fully digital. [01:22:25] Are you? And that’s one of my passions, digital dentistry [01:22:30] and the whole.

Payman Langroudi: Are you good with computers?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes. That’s different. Yes, I do [01:22:35] exocad design. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Computers in general dentistry. [01:22:40]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Are very good.

Payman Langroudi: Yes, that’s different, isn’t it? You don’t see many, many ladies from from our generation? [01:22:45] No I know. Good at computers.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I know, I know that that’s one thing that I [01:22:50] would like to teach a lot of younger women, especially [01:22:55] dentists.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s a good point.

Fariba Zolfaghari: To get in to digital dentistry, because [01:23:00] a lot of, uh, women nervousness around nervous about digital, [01:23:05] digital and technology. And it’s very easy, [01:23:10] very easy.

Payman Langroudi: So have you thought about teaching?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes I have.

Payman Langroudi: Have you done [01:23:15] teaching? No I.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Haven’t. No, I would love to at one point.

Payman Langroudi: Definitely. [01:23:20] I think I think you’d be good at it. I think you’d be good at it. Um, because [01:23:25] I don’t know, sometimes with teaching or with mentoring in general. Yeah, there’s there’s [01:23:30] that. I wish there was someone like me in my life back [01:23:35] then. Back then to teach, you know, the big element of that. It’s a big, big element of that. [01:23:40] And, you know, you can think of the types of people you wanted around to to help you out [01:23:45] back then, rather than working it all out yourself. Yes. There must have been. I mean, tell me about this. I’m quite interested [01:23:50] in this here. Your partner that you divorced with with [01:23:55] in the business. There must have been bits that he was doing that you had no idea about. [01:24:00] I don’t mean bad bits, just bits of running, bits of raising money, bits of decorating. [01:24:05] What was he doing? That knowledge that he. Maintenance.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Maintenance. That’s [01:24:10] it.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? He wasn’t doing finance or I don’t know. [01:24:15]

Fariba Zolfaghari: We had that content and everything was given [01:24:20] handed over. Handed over to accountant. Content. He was just doing maintenance.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:24:25] all. Because, you know, I thought, oh, maybe he was had a big part in the business. And then you [01:24:30] lost that knowledge. No, no. Good. [01:24:35]

Fariba Zolfaghari: No. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me. Tell me about inspiring [01:24:40] staff. I mean, I’ve talked to you a few times and just. You’re good with people. You’re [01:24:45] good. You’re a good conversationalist. But it’s different talking to a friend or talking [01:24:50] to a colleague or a staff. What’s your what’s your learnings on that? Because, [01:24:55] you know, 24 years, 25 years of stuff.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Is [01:25:00] a difficult conversation dealing with [01:25:05] the staff. Um, I think the [01:25:10] quality to dealing with this stuff is, first [01:25:15] of all, to listen to this stuff. Yeah, listen to [01:25:20] their problems and then try to help them [01:25:25] about their where they’re lacking. Of their knowledge and [01:25:30] where they could support. Um, we could support [01:25:35] them in their learning. Um, in their working. Sometimes [01:25:40] it’s just the environment. Sometimes it’s just, um, bitterness about [01:25:45] each other. You know, it’s really hard. And, um, I think [01:25:50] from my point of view, I always try to listen to [01:25:55] my staff. And if I can do anything for them, [01:26:00] I will do it. But with regards to the [01:26:05] working environment, if there is anything that we can support [01:26:10] them with, we will do it as a team.

Payman Langroudi: I think you hit the nail [01:26:15] on the head when you when you said help them, support them. Absolutely. Because there’s [01:26:20] two different types of bosses. There’s the servant boss, which is [01:26:25] that one? Yeah. Or there’s the, you know, boss boss, where the staff are the servants and [01:26:30] and and I really I think it’s the biggest, the biggest point in leadership is [01:26:35] to be the servant of your people. It’s like you work for them, not [01:26:40] they work for you is the key point. The key point. And it’s difficult [01:26:45] sometimes. By the way, if you talk to my team, I’m sure they’ll say this saying that, but he’s in a bad [01:26:50] mood or whatever. Yeah. Um, but I think it’s a key point, man. I think it’s a key point in success as [01:26:55] a leader.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I think you as a leader, you [01:27:00] have to train leaders.

Payman Langroudi: True.

Fariba Zolfaghari: And in [01:27:05] my practice, it’s not. This is [01:27:10] what I’m saying. You have to do it. We sit on [01:27:15] a round table and we brainstorm, and [01:27:20] then we make a decision as a team, and then we have a big [01:27:25] meeting if there is any changes. And we introduce that change and [01:27:30] then we ask for feedback.

Payman Langroudi: That seems like a feminine [01:27:35] way of doing it. It’s quite nice. It’s quite a nice thing.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah. It’s uh would you. [01:27:40]

Payman Langroudi: Agree with that, that it’s more a woman thing?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I think it’s more democratic. [01:27:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Doing this, I feel like. I feel like it’s more of a, [01:27:50] you know, they say that, they say, oh, women work more with consensus, you know? [01:27:55] And at the same time, women also I come across lots who don’t want to put themselves [01:28:00] up to be a teacher. You know, there’s that whole question, why [01:28:05] aren’t there more women teachers? Yeah. And whatever else you want to say, there is this aspect of [01:28:10] women won’t ask. They’ll they’ll be happy to be asked, but [01:28:15] they won’t ask themselves.

Fariba Zolfaghari: You’re right. Absolutely. [01:28:20] You. You have to put yourself forward. Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:28:25] if it’s not, it’s not in the nature of women to do it.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It’s not, I’m afraid. No, you’re absolutely [01:28:30] right.

Payman Langroudi: In the same way as it’s not in the nature of women to ask for a pay rise. I’ve noticed some [01:28:35] women. Some some some some women love it.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I think nowadays they do. [01:28:40]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I mean, certainly in my experience with, [01:28:45] um, lady associates, dentists, [01:28:50] um, they are not shy about asking for [01:28:55] a raise. They’re not shy.

Payman Langroudi: I really worry about it, though, because we’ve got people here. [01:29:00] Yeah. And I always think about this a lot. It bothers me badly that [01:29:05] two people doing the same kind of job. You know, we’ve got six people doing sales, [01:29:10] let’s say two of them in that department. If one of them is asking and [01:29:15] one of them isn’t asking and it’s just waiting, the one who’s [01:29:20] waiting ends up losing. Yeah, and it pisses [01:29:25] me off a bit. Yeah, because it’s not in some people’s nature to ask. Number [01:29:30] one. Number two, I quite like that idea of I’m not going [01:29:35] to. I’m sure they’ll come to me. I quite like and yet that person gets penalised [01:29:40] here and doesn’t get the pay rises at enlightened. You know, I’ve seen I’ve noticed it over the years. [01:29:45] I’ve tried to try to change for that as well, but over the years people tend [01:29:50] to be the ones who get even in pay rises. It’s difficult. [01:29:55]

Fariba Zolfaghari: It is very hard.

Payman Langroudi: My team aren’t listening.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It is really hard [01:30:00] because not only that, that person will get [01:30:05] probably the raise, but also there are other [01:30:10] people with more qualification, more experience, who never [01:30:15] come forward to ask for the raise. But then again, if you [01:30:20] are a fair boss.

Payman Langroudi: You notice that.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Notice that and you bring it. [01:30:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah. All right. That’s what. [01:30:30] That’s what I’m struggling with, you know? Yeah. It’s been amazing.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Because at the end of the [01:30:35] day, yeah they will hear it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. You know what? Another thing I struggle [01:30:40] with is experience counts sometimes more than merit.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Absolutely. [01:30:45]

Payman Langroudi: No, no, but I don’t like it.

Fariba Zolfaghari: You don’t like it?

Payman Langroudi: No. I’m in the same way. You’re talking about [01:30:50] promotions, pay rises and all that. Pay rises because of the fact that you have been [01:30:55] there longer. Yeah. There’s something nice about staying [01:31:00] somewhere. Yeah. It is. But we’ve been guilty of this in the past of giving people pay rises just [01:31:05] for being there, and then other people who join later, Not [01:31:10] giving them huge pay rises because they just got here, you know. So it’s [01:31:15] almost like an experience versus merit pay rise. And I’m trying to change that though. I’m [01:31:20] trying to change that to how are you going to change it. We’re going to make it more meritocracy. Not not immediate [01:31:25] pay rises just because of another years gone by. Yeah. You know, that sort of thing. It’s [01:31:30] been massive, the pleasurable conversation. Um, there is two [01:31:35] parts we always do in this pod. Number one, your biggest mistake. Clinical.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It’s [01:31:40] only about whitening. [01:31:45]

Payman Langroudi: No way.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Enlighten. No. Thank [01:31:50] God. No. Don’t mention, don’t mention the name.

Fariba Zolfaghari: No. [01:31:55] Many years ago.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. May I [01:32:00] say the name? The brand name? No.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Okay. Um. Many years ago, the [01:32:05] in house whitening. Um, I bought a machine which I won’t [01:32:10] mention the name. And obviously you’re buying the whiting from [01:32:15] that company. And I’m not saying that anything [01:32:20] was or is wrong with the machine or the company’s, [01:32:25] um, Whiting brand material, because I’m still working with [01:32:30] that material in for in-house Whiting. Um, and I [01:32:35] still have got the machine. I love it, and patients love it. It [01:32:40] was early stages of me [01:32:45] going into in-house whitening with [01:32:50] the machine that I had bought. Um, I had [01:32:55] done a couple and it had gone really well. Um, [01:33:00] this lady came to me and she was going to get married [01:33:05] very soon, 2 or 3 weeks from [01:33:10] the date of the treatment. So [01:33:15] we did that, and at the end of the treatment, [01:33:20] she had big lips. [01:33:25]

Payman Langroudi: Allergy.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Allergy. And big, uh. [01:33:30]

Payman Langroudi: Ulceration, blisters and.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Things like burning. [01:33:35] Ulceration on her lips. And then when I got [01:33:40] in touch with the company, um, they said that. What [01:33:45] colour she was she white? [01:33:50] Red? Black. I said she is a fair skin [01:33:55] with freckles. Yeah. Reddish hair. And [01:34:00] that is quite a common Them with [01:34:05] their fair skin that they get this. They could [01:34:10] get this kind of. Ulceration, this kind of reaction. Mm. So [01:34:15] as a result, um, obviously I was really, really upset [01:34:20] for her because she was going to get married very soon. Did it.

Payman Langroudi: Not get better before the.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Wedding? [01:34:25] It did get better. She. I gave her some antibiotic antihistamine. [01:34:30] And just before she was getting married, there were [01:34:35] the swelling was going down. The ulceration was getting [01:34:40] down. Obviously, she had some cream that she got from her doctor. [01:34:45]

Payman Langroudi: But she was upset.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Really. She was really upset.

Payman Langroudi: So what was the error? The way [01:34:50] that you handled her upset or what did.

Fariba Zolfaghari: The lesson was [01:34:55] that I should have told her that this is a risk [01:35:00] for your skin type.

Payman Langroudi: But you wouldn’t. I mean, how would you know that?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I should have no [01:35:05] skin type.

Payman Langroudi: No no no no. I disagree with that. How are you gonna. [01:35:10] It’s such a rare thing.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It was rare. And they said it as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You don’t. You don’t need to tell [01:35:15] her. If it’s like, you know, less than a 5% chance of it happening. You know what I mean? [01:35:20] It’s like. It’s like saying I should tell someone when I take their tooth out that they could die. Well, [01:35:25] they could die. Someone has died when the tooth has been pulled out. So let’s [01:35:30] leave that 1 to 1 side. How did you handle her? Was she cool or was she. Was she not cool? No.

Fariba Zolfaghari: She [01:35:35] was really upset. Yeah. Not in a bad way.

Payman Langroudi: Just for her own wedding. [01:35:40]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah, but it wasn’t a good experience for her or myself. [01:35:45]

Payman Langroudi: Have you got a better, better one than that one? Um, well, I like [01:35:50] that one because it’s whitening, but I feel like you didn’t make any mistakes [01:35:55] there.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I feel that I did. I should have warned her. No, you shouldn’t. [01:36:00]

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, that’s incorrect. Let’s talk about different mistakes. Yes. [01:36:05]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Um, the biggest mistake that [01:36:10] is you never treat your partner or family [01:36:15] and friends.

Payman Langroudi: Go on. I have, I’ve done a lot on my friends and family. [01:36:20]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Did you. Did you know what happened with the GDC? Because I was treating [01:36:25] my partner and they didn’t approve of that. Okay, okay. [01:36:30] So that was one of the big lesson I learned.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [01:36:35]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah, both. That was.

Payman Langroudi: It’s funny because I still would treat my family, my friends, [01:36:40] my mom, actually, my.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Mom and my sister. Are you actually.

Payman Langroudi: Saying are [01:36:45] we actually saying that one. We should not treat friends and family. It’s weird.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I [01:36:50] am actually saying do not treat your [01:36:55] partner.

Payman Langroudi: In case there’s a divorce.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Do not treat your friends. [01:37:00] Really? I would still do. My sisters, my brother, my mom. [01:37:05] Um, that I would do that because they would never [01:37:10] take me to court. But I would never, [01:37:15] ever again touch either a friend [01:37:20] or a partner’s taste.

Payman Langroudi: I like that one [01:37:25] more. I like that one. I do like that one. I do like that one. Final question. [01:37:30] Fantasy dinner party. Three guests, [01:37:35] dead or alive.

Fariba Zolfaghari: My [01:37:40] uncle. Was [01:37:45] very inspiring.

Payman Langroudi: My mom’s.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Brother. My father’s brother.

Payman Langroudi: My father’s brother.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Who was [01:37:50] a surgeon. Very inspiring. Um, [01:37:55] he would teach me a lot about. He was a businessman [01:38:00] as well. But business and about.

Payman Langroudi: Did you.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Know [01:38:05] him? I knew him up to the point that I moved from [01:38:10] Iran. Then after that there was no connection, [01:38:15] I’m afraid, but very inspiring. The [01:38:20] second one would be Wayne Dyer. [01:38:25] Doctor Wayne Dyer. Who’s that? He’s an American [01:38:30] guy. He died in 2015. He’s a [01:38:35] doctor in psychology, and he is a speaker, [01:38:40] was a speaker, and he is blending the spirituality [01:38:45] and psychology together. Oh, nice. And if you listen [01:38:50] to him, you just listen to him. And it will take [01:38:55] you to a different world.

Payman Langroudi: Wayne Dwyer.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Wayne. Dyer. [01:39:00]

Payman Langroudi: Dyer.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Doctor. Wayne. Dyer.

Payman Langroudi: How do you spell. Dyer.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Dyer. [01:39:05]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, okay.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah. And the third [01:39:10] one. Jamie. Oliver. I like Jamie.

Payman Langroudi: I like Jamie.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I [01:39:15] love.

Payman Langroudi: Him. I like Jamie. Jamie used to live on my street at one point. Did he? I moved when I used [01:39:20] to live around here. Um, the reason why this office is here is because I always used to live around here. And [01:39:25] then I’ve moved to West London. I like Jamie, too.

Fariba Zolfaghari: He was amazing. He is amazing [01:39:30] guy. Amazing. And he’s. I love cooking, obviously, and [01:39:35] I just love watching him cook.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:39:40] been such a massive pleasure. Thank you so much for telling your story the way [01:39:45] you did.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Thank you for having me.

Payman Langroudi: Not easy to say it all either. You know, that’s [01:39:50] that’s it’s it’s really inspirational to to hear it from you. And [01:39:55] you know really well. Done. Really well done. With with your practice. And like I [01:40:00] say, I see people coming to events and you’re still coming. I love that I really love [01:40:05] that. Thank you so much for coming.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Thank you for having me. My pleasure. Thank you.

[VOICE]: This [01:40:10] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go [01:40:15] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:40:20] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [01:40:25]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:40:30] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what [01:40:35] we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [01:40:40]

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [01:40:45] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so so much for [01:40:50] listening.

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