Month: March 2025

Payman Langroudi: Tooth sensitivity is an enigma, and it probably becomes a big issue [00:00:05] in different situations in dentistry, but definitely comes to a head in whitening if you have any [00:00:10] problems with sensitive patients. Patients with dentine hypersensitivity to have a go with the enlightened [00:00:15] comfort bundle. It’s a bioactive glass pen with a [00:00:20] hydroxyapatite toothpaste combination that works really well in all cases of [00:00:25] severe sensitivity. So have a look on enlightened Wspa.com. The enlightened comfort bundle. [00:00:30] Let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders, the podcast [00:00:40] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi [00:00:50] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome [00:00:55] Sam Cope onto the pod. Sam is a I would describe you as a minimally [00:01:00] invasive cosmetic dentist. Really? Um, a dentist who started [00:01:05] out as a physiotherapist. Um, a pleasure to have you, buddy.

Sam Cope: Yeah. Thanks so much. And thanks [00:01:10] for inviting me on the podcast. I’ve been I’ve listened a lot to the podcast and [00:01:15] with different people that have been on and things. So it’s yeah, it’s it’s when do you listen inspirational [00:01:20] that you have these people on.

Payman Langroudi: When do you listen?

Sam Cope: I actually [00:01:25] listen to my podcast when I’m in the gym. So I think it’s good because [00:01:30] it keeps you in the gym for longer and it’s almost dead time. So that’s what I listen. [00:01:35] Yeah, that’s what I listen.

Payman Langroudi: And how often do you go to the gym?

Sam Cope: Probably about four times. 4 or 5 times a week. [00:01:40] Oh, really? Yeah. I try and get into a routine. Yeah, usually. Usually in the mornings [00:01:45] or like, sometimes after work. I’ve. I’ve placed the gym so that when I, as I [00:01:50] walk home from work, I walk past the gym. So it’s a, it’s a real guilt trip if I don’t go. [00:01:55] So I’ve kind of done that on purpose just so.

Payman Langroudi: Have you read that Atomic Habits book or something.

Sam Cope: I actually [00:02:00] haven’t. Why? Is that something that you said?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: Oh, right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So. Yeah, [00:02:05] that’s that’s what I do usually.

Payman Langroudi: So what time is that then? What time? What time do you wake up?

Sam Cope: Um, [00:02:10] usually about 6:45. Yeah. And then [00:02:15] I, I only work now clinically three days. So I [00:02:20] work Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. So all of teeth. All at love teeth.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Sam Cope: Monday and Tuesday [00:02:25] I have off. But I use that to reflect on all the cases [00:02:30] that I’m doing and also to do other things like things like this, all the fun things. [00:02:35] But I think reflecting on your practice [00:02:40] and going through, because I take pictures of everything, all the stages, and I go through all the cases [00:02:45] that I’ve done the week before, and I go through the cases that I’m going to do in the week, so that when I have my [00:02:50] clinical days, they are super kind of refined and everybody knows exactly what they’re doing. [00:02:55] I have like a list that my nurse has so she knows exactly what to get [00:03:00] out for each patient. So everything just works like a really fine tuned machine. So [00:03:05] having those two days works really well.

Payman Langroudi: How did you get into that habit? Um, [00:03:10] by chance, you are you, like, a massive perfectionist like you? [00:03:15]

Sam Cope: Um, I think I got into it just from different mentors and different [00:03:20] influences that I’ve had in the past. I remember like when I was when I was [00:03:25] in Liverpool, I was at the Dental house, and I remember Stuart Garton saying [00:03:30] to me, you know, dentistry, it’s it’s a marathon. It’s not a sprint. Yeah. And [00:03:35] I didn’t really understand that at the time because I was that one.

Payman Langroudi: Of your first jobs?

Sam Cope: That was. Yeah, my, one of my NHS first [00:03:40] jobs, which at the time I thought, you know, I didn’t really understand what it meant, but now I understand completely [00:03:45] what it means. There’s no like the faster you try to go, it seems like it [00:03:50] can be counterproductive. You make the same mistakes. Yeah, but if you kind of take it slow, You learn [00:03:55] from your mistakes and then you can. You can grow. You get so much better.

Payman Langroudi: Give [00:04:00] me an example. Then when you’re when you’re looking at cases, past [00:04:05] cases and future cases on that day off. Give me an example of something that [00:04:10] you learn by doing that, that the next man doesn’t learn by not doing that. [00:04:15] Like, what kind of thing are we talking.

Sam Cope: Yeah. So I’ll be I’ll, I’ll [00:04:20] do a case and then I’ll look at all of the pictures and something that, you know, the patient walks out, they’re super [00:04:25] happy. Um, and you’re kind of buzzing because you’ve just finished your Invisalign. [00:04:30] You’ve done the composite, and it looks fantastic. You look at the pictures [00:04:35] and you look at kind of your build ups and things, and you think, actually that [00:04:40] tooth looks a little bit grey. Like if we if, you know, if I was going to post that, it [00:04:45] looks a little bit grey. Not really too happy with it. I’ve probably placed too much enamel. So really I need to increase [00:04:50] the dentine layer. Or it could be, you know, you’re cutting veneers [00:04:55] and you look at the the prep and you think, actually, I’ve over prepped there. Or you might say, actually [00:05:00] there’s a, there is a little bit of a black triangle. So maybe I should have taken through the [00:05:05] interproximal aspects, gum levels as well. [00:05:10] I find sometimes where you’ll finish the case and everything looks great, and then you can see [00:05:15] that one of the gums is, you know, slightly square rather than having a nice curve [00:05:20] to it. So you think, actually, if I’d had just done a little bit of laser or laser or something, yeah, [00:05:25] that would have looked great, or using some of the gum cutting burrs I find [00:05:30] works really well. Um, only if it’s for something very, very small.

Payman Langroudi: When I was a dentist, [00:05:35] there was this burr that used to cut gum and coagulate at the same time. Do you know what I’m talking [00:05:40] about? It’s like a ceramic burr.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I think.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the.

Sam Cope: One I’m using. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Does that still exist? [00:05:45] Yeah.

Sam Cope: Canal, um, introduced me to that burr. Oh, really? Yeah. It does work really well, [00:05:50] I think with with kind of gum contouring and things I’ve done Reena Wadia’s [00:05:55] course for crown lengthening. I think if you’re doing like very small you.

Payman Langroudi: Can do that. [00:06:00]

Sam Cope: Yeah, you can do it, but if not then definitely recommend kind of doing flaps and [00:06:05] and are.

Payman Langroudi: You comfortable with blood. Are you comfortable with flaps and implants [00:06:10] and things?

Sam Cope: I don’t do implants, but I would be happy with doing the flaps [00:06:15] and things I’d say.

Payman Langroudi: I’d say that’s something that one of the things that keeps people away from implants, [00:06:20] right. That not not comfortable with flaps, not comfortable with taking flaps back [00:06:25] and putting them, you know, suturing them back together again.

Sam Cope: Yeah. That’s true. I [00:06:30] think, um, you’ve got I think you’ve just got to learn how everything can fail, but then [00:06:35] you to feel comfortable. So then, you know, if you know, then what you can do [00:06:40] to fix it. I think that’s the key.

Payman Langroudi: Did you qualify?

Sam Cope: So I qualify 2019. [00:06:45]

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Sam Cope: Yeah. So not that long ago.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. That’s pretty. That’s [00:06:50] pretty good going. What? You’re what you’re up to in five years.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I suppose [00:06:55] I’ve had great mentors and I’ve just practised so much, [00:07:00] like most. I remember when I was in the Dental house, I was really lucky because [00:07:05] it was an NHS contract that I had, but most of the [00:07:10] clinicians that were working in there say orthodontists, um, people doing composite veneers. [00:07:15] So I had great mentors from them who just, just let me watch as well, which is quite rare [00:07:20] for dentists, I think. So a lot of dentists don’t want you to see what they’re doing. But I had [00:07:25] say if I was going to name drop Kate Jigs Patel. Viraj Patel. [00:07:30] Yeah, such lovely people, even, um, even Stuart [00:07:35] Garson and Rick, they, you know, let me come in and watch them and I’d spend my [00:07:40] days off kind of coming in to watch them because I’d have a day off in the week. And you find that you’re [00:07:45] clinical. You’ll, you’ll always learn from another dentist just by watching them, no matter what dentist [00:07:50] they are, I’m loving.

Payman Langroudi: I’m loving the fact that you’re sort of putting [00:07:55] days off as part of the education. I’m loving that. It’s [00:08:00] weird. Like for me, in my head, that sort of reminds me of, I don’t know, an advert where you have nothing in one [00:08:05] corner of an advert, we call it Negative Space. Yeah, a negative space in dental education. [00:08:10] Like you’re saying, back then, you were taking a day off and watching people, [00:08:15] you know, shadowing them. And right now you’re taking days off and [00:08:20] using those days off to treat and plan and reflect on your previous work. It’s kind [00:08:25] of an interesting thing, man, because, you know, it’s like maybe, you know, like they say, own the gym, don’t [00:08:30] don’t go to the gym seven days a week, you know, like allow some rest and recuperation. [00:08:35] Like in in our terms, in education terms, rest and recuperation doesn’t necessarily [00:08:40] mean sitting on the sofa watching TV. It could mean not having [00:08:45] to be there at 830 in the morning, all dressed up. But working on your career? [00:08:50]

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And very interesting.

Sam Cope: Yeah, yeah, I think doing the three days a week [00:08:55] is great because it means you still kind of you’re like, fired and [00:09:00] ready to go every week. You’re kind of like, oh, I’m actually ready to get back into work now and see impatience. Yeah. And [00:09:05] then on the days off, it’s great as well. I usually have my weekends where it’s just chill [00:09:10] and I try not to think about work. And then on the Monday, Tuesday, I can kind of really [00:09:15] focus down on what’s going on, find, um, I find Instagram and [00:09:20] social media that takes up a lot of time. I was thinking of even getting a kind [00:09:25] of social media manager or something, but they’re really expensive as well. And you’re [00:09:30] always wondering, like, are they going to be able to portray you as well as you’d be able to portray yourself [00:09:35] with the photos and things?

Payman Langroudi: So to start with, no, the thing about [00:09:40] taking people on to do things is to start with quality will drop Compared [00:09:45] to you doing it yourself. Yeah, whoever that is, whatever the job is. Yeah. Because, you know, [00:09:50] you yourself, at the end of the day, you know, it’s it’s the way you want something done. Mhm. But [00:09:55] it’s also the thief of growth.

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know the [00:10:00] comparison is the thief of joy. Yeah. It’s the thief of growth because people who can’t [00:10:05] delegate generally have got sort of like a trust issue. Yeah. [00:10:10] Or a communication issue. Like I find for me it’s more a communication [00:10:15] issue than a trust issue. Some people are just brilliant at setting out what the task [00:10:20] is, what the deliverable is, and you know what progress looks like for someone [00:10:25] else. Yeah. But with me, when I when I’m asking someone to do something, I just [00:10:30] almost like saying I’ll figure it out sort of thing. And even if even though I know this fact, [00:10:35] it doesn’t come naturally to me to delegate in that way. Um, so [00:10:40] those two things trust and communication. But what will happen is that there’s like a dip. [00:10:45] And then if the person’s any good, it’ll be, you know, like the volume of, [00:10:50] of output will outdo the dip. Mhm. And just depends man. It depends [00:10:55] if you’re the type of person who, you know, if one post that’s incorrect is going [00:11:00] to break your heart, then you better not grow.

Sam Cope: I was uh [00:11:05] I’ve got two younger brothers. Yeah. And they’re in this social media age. [00:11:10] They must be you. Oh, yeah. They’ve definitely broke the 10,000 hour rule [00:11:15] on. Oh, really? Yeah. So I was thinking, like, maybe it’s a good idea to kind of teach them, [00:11:20] and they can. I’ll give them a bit of pocket money. Yeah, they can do it. They’re probably better than these social [00:11:25] media managers and things if they if you help them to grow. But I agree [00:11:30] with you. I mean, I, I use different composite techniques and wax ups to [00:11:35] do my composites and I wanted some I wanted something doing well. So [00:11:40] I went to the lab, got to know the lab technicians really well, and [00:11:45] I showed them kind of how I want to do things. And we learned from each other because a lot of dentists [00:11:50] don’t go to the labs. And also a lot of the lab technicians are quite away from what goes on in the clinic. [00:11:55] So I definitely recommend for anyone listening to this to go to the lab, get [00:12:00] to know your technician, and kind of you can go back and forward with, you know, what you know [00:12:05] and what can help. And they can tell you what. And also they tell you new materials that are in and different techniques. [00:12:10] And you can also, if you’re really nice to them, they might even show you some other dentists work, [00:12:15] which also is really good to see.

Payman Langroudi: You know, education right. You’ve got, [00:12:20] you know, letters after your name type education. You’ve got short courses [00:12:25] and, you know, diploma type courses. You’ve got books. I don’t think you should. You should, [00:12:30] you know, people don’t buy enough books because books books sound expensive. [00:12:35] When you look at them you think, oh, £400 for a book, but that’s nothing compared to a course. Yeah. [00:12:40] And the amount of I mean, what tends to happen with the book is the author has got [00:12:45] the pride that, you know, if we’re putting a book out, I’m going to put value into that book. [00:12:50] And there’s. But then, but then education from your technician. I [00:12:55] had one technician who was just an absolute gem. He taught me so much. So much. [00:13:00] Um, brilliant guy, John Oliver in Kent. Um, [00:13:05] but but also salespeople. You know, it’s funny. People, people [00:13:10] tell their receptionists, keep salespeople away. But that salesman [00:13:15] who comes into your practice with the whatever it is, you know, whatever the guy [00:13:20] is selling, he’s got product knowledge. He’s got market knowledge, you know, [00:13:25] that you’re not going to have you’re not going to have. He’s going to tell you what the most successful [00:13:30] dentists using that product is doing and, and how and [00:13:35] that’s gold. And yet we spend our time telling our receptionist. Keep salesmen away. [00:13:40] Salesmen for me are, yes, free CPD for someone who wants to sell [00:13:45] you something. Yes, he wants to sell you something. But free CPD and education [00:13:50] is so multifactorial. What would you say is the most valuable? [00:13:55] I’d say the shadowing one.

Sam Cope: Yeah, the shadowing is very good because, I mean, [00:14:00] I spent a little bit of time with, um, with Rosie, [00:14:05] and she was an oral surgeon, and she showed me how to take teeth out. And I swear I’ve learned more [00:14:10] in that morning with her than I did throughout my whole university. Just really [00:14:15] simple techniques that you look at her taking a tooth out and it just looks like you think. You think to yourself, [00:14:20] you know, God, what my teeth actually held in with because she’s getting them out. They’re just falling out like rain. [00:14:25] Yeah. Um, but, yeah, it’s probably the most important thing.

Payman Langroudi: When did you when did you [00:14:30] decide the kind of dentist you wanted to be? At what point did you [00:14:35] decide, or maybe you haven’t decided yet. Yeah, but were you the type [00:14:40] in university to be thinking I want to be a [00:14:45] private dentist, or I want to be a cosmetic dentist? Or what do you think? What were you thinking [00:14:50] at university about your career going forward?

Sam Cope: So I come from a very kind of 21st [00:14:55] century family. I’ve got a step grandad and a step uncle. Go [00:15:00] on. Yeah. Spell that.

Payman Langroudi: Spell that out for me. Spell it.

Sam Cope: Spell it out. So my grandma remarried. [00:15:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: So he’s my step granddad. And then his son is my step uncle. [00:15:10]

Payman Langroudi: He’s got a whole step family then.

Sam Cope: Yeah, yeah. Oh, God. Yeah. I’ve got, like, six brothers. [00:15:15] Like, I won’t go into all of that. It’s like four step brothers. Two half brothers. It [00:15:20] just goes on. But I found that I was [00:15:25] watching. I was watching my step granddad work because he was a dentist and my step uncle was a dentist. [00:15:30] Oh, really? So he worked in a predominantly NHS practice. I shadowed him [00:15:35] and that, you know, he was very old school [00:15:40] and he would just see. You know, 50 patients, maybe more a day, [00:15:45] and he’d have two surgeries running and he’d just bat between the two. No communication happened between [00:15:50] him and his patients. It was just I’d say to him, oh, what did you do for that patient? He went, oh, we just did a root canal. [00:15:55] I was like, did he even know that? Whereas my step uncle, [00:16:00] he he works on Pont Street and he’s fantastic. And [00:16:05] he sees lots of kind of high end people in London. Yeah. Pont Street [00:16:10] in London. Oh, okay. Yeah. And he does fantastic work. That was kind of what inspired me to do [00:16:15] dentistry. I saw him once. There was a woman and her tooth was completely [00:16:20] shattered. She’d fallen over and he’d just rebuilt it so fast with composite. [00:16:25] But when I was, when I was at university, I’d always just thought I was going to do general dentistry. [00:16:30] I never had like a massive flair for composite or anything like that, really. [00:16:35] But when I did my foundation year, my friends were saying, [00:16:40] oh, we’re going to do like a composite course. So I ended up going on the totally [00:16:45] composite one with monarch, and I watched him kind of.

Payman Langroudi: As a foundation.

Sam Cope: As a foundation. [00:16:50] Yeah, just towards the end. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Good time to do it.

Sam Cope: And I just found like [00:16:55] after after doing a course like that, I was like, wow. I never realised [00:17:00] that because, you know, when you’re at university you’re taught how [00:17:05] to do something, but you have this huge anxiety that, oh, if I get this wrong, then [00:17:10] I’m going to have to reset the year or I’m going to have to reset the class. So you can never really relax. And I feel [00:17:15] that you learn when you’re relaxed and you’re you’re enjoying it. And and when [00:17:20] you can see that you can do it, then it’s just yeah, fantastic. So I did I did that, [00:17:25] then I ended up doing the year long course with him. And it was after that that I thought, yeah, [00:17:30] do you know what? I think I’d really like to do the composite.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of stream.

Sam Cope: That kind of dentistry. [00:17:35] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the journey from schoolboy to physiotherapist [00:17:40] to dental school.

Sam Cope: Yeah. So I through [00:17:45] so I always really liked biology helping people. [00:17:50] So I thought, you know, doing something to do with medicine would be great. [00:17:55] I then finished, finished school [00:18:00] and I just didn’t think I was going to get the grades to do medicine or dentistry. So I looked elsewhere. [00:18:05] I was thinking like, maybe I should do biomedical sciences or something, but [00:18:10] then somebody with.

Payman Langroudi: A view, with a view to eventually doing.

Sam Cope: With a view to move. And then somebody said, well, you’re [00:18:15] probably just really enjoy physio. So I did physio and I did that at King’s [00:18:20] in London and that was amazing. It was very research heavy. [00:18:25] Um, so it was very intense. I actually, I’ll be honest, I found [00:18:30] the exams for physio a lot harder than the exams for dentistry. Really? And [00:18:35] it was. It was a fantastic experience and it was intense because [00:18:40] we’d have, you’d have 9 to 5 lectures every day and then the summer holidays you’d [00:18:45] spend on placements and you’d think that in London, you know, [00:18:50] there’s loads of hospitals in London that you could go and but there’s also loads of universities in London [00:18:55] students. So you could be shipped off to Middlesex, Kent for your placements [00:19:00] and then, you know, you’re, you’re in hospital accommodation, which I’ll, I’ll tell you is [00:19:05] dire. Yeah. It’s horrible.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve spent I’ve spent a fair amount of time in hospital accommodation. [00:19:10]

Sam Cope: Yeah. It’s it’s like you’re in a cardboard box with. So, [00:19:15] um, so.

Payman Langroudi: You’re telling me physio what is as hard a degree as dentistry?

Sam Cope: I thought it was harder. [00:19:20] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s so interesting, man.

Sam Cope: It was.

Payman Langroudi: It was the hardest degree around. [00:19:25] That’s so interesting, man.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I felt I mean, I suppose [00:19:30] I’d already done physiotherapy, so I already knew how to learn. But when I was doing my [00:19:35] dental degree, I was working as a physio Monday, Tuesday nights [00:19:40] and Saturdays.

Payman Langroudi: During the degree.

Sam Cope: During the degree. Wow. And then I [00:19:45] even like I remember the night before my finals, I had like a list of five patients [00:19:50] in the evening.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Sam Cope: Um, mainly. I mean, I know that sounds ridiculous, [00:19:55] but it was mainly just so that I could switch off because I just thought, well, I’m not going to learn anything now. I might as well make a [00:20:00] little bit of money and just kind of set my mind aside.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s a bit different to my night [00:20:05] before the exam. I’ll tell you that. The caffeine tablets. I [00:20:10] was studying all that, but. So you worked [00:20:15] as a physio for how long before deciding to do dentistry? [00:20:20]

Sam Cope: So I finished, I finished my degree in physiotherapy, and then I worked for a year [00:20:25] as a physiotherapist, so I was working full time, seeing 20 patients [00:20:30] a day and it was really good. I learned a lot and you learn a lot [00:20:35] about neck back pain, how that works, and then you also learn loads about how [00:20:40] to treat it. So I was also the physio for Millwall rugby team, [00:20:45] which was cool. And then whilst I was doing dentistry I had my own. I [00:20:50] worked for a private clinic so I was on Rodney Street in Liverpool working there, but [00:20:55] then I was also the physiotherapist for Merseyside Fire and Rescue and the Philharmonic [00:21:00] Orchestra, so that was really cool. So I used to get free tickets to the Philharmonic, and then I used to get [00:21:05] some cool stories from the fire brigade.

Payman Langroudi: In a way. On the top of your game in physio, [00:21:10] I mean one year out, but still on the top on a trajectory to be a top physio. [00:21:15] What is the reason for switching? Is the pay terrible? Is that [00:21:20] what it is? I mean, is the pay terrible?

Sam Cope: The pay is you work hard [00:21:25] for the pay that you get. But it wasn’t really that that stopped me. It was more the fact [00:21:30] that there’s a ceiling effect where I felt that the [00:21:35] more the more pay I could. You know, the trajectory was to either open up your own musculoskeletal [00:21:40] clinic, but then there’s only so many patients that you can see in a day. So then it would obviously [00:21:45] be looking at hiring associates and things, or it was going down the route of being with [00:21:50] a football team or a rugby team and following them around the world, which is intense. [00:21:55] And also I found that working for rugby teams and things you [00:22:00] are, you’re obviously there to help them and the players respect you, but you [00:22:05] I never really felt like I was part of the team. I always wanted to play rugby or football with [00:22:10] them because when you’re the person that they [00:22:15] come to when they’re injured, so you’re almost the person that they [00:22:20] don’t really want to see, which is fair enough.

Payman Langroudi: But what a.

Sam Cope: Yeah. So [00:22:25] I felt and also because I was thinking about, you know, the dentistry with my step [00:22:30] uncle and granddad. I just thought, do you know what I can? I could never really envision myself as [00:22:35] being a physio forever. I kind of wanted to branch out, and I thought that if [00:22:40] I didn’t take the opportunity to do dentistry or even medicine at that time, I probably [00:22:45] would never do it. So I thought, well, why don’t I just do the degree and then I can [00:22:50] always decide. I kept my physiotherapy running throughout just in case, [00:22:55] and I still have my Healthcare Professions council um, registration now so [00:23:00] I can still do physiotherapy if I, if I really wanted to, but um, [00:23:05] but yeah, that’s kind of what happened.

Payman Langroudi: And so with that insight [00:23:10] into physiotherapy, you must know a lot about dentists backs. [00:23:15]

Sam Cope: Yeah. We I did a lot of research with it where it [00:23:20] said something like 60 to 90% of dentists will get back [00:23:25] pain at some point in their life. Yeah, and I did a survey amongst, [00:23:30] um, final year students at Liverpool [00:23:35] Dental School and the results were quite, um, quite interesting where [00:23:40] it said, they said that something like 40% of dentists had experienced back or neck pain [00:23:45] in the last six months, and 14% had sought professional [00:23:50] help. The other thing was that the education was quite [00:23:55] poor, whereas most people thought that limiting exercise [00:24:00] and bed rest was probably the best way to manage back pain and [00:24:05] also to improve your posture. Whereas in actual [00:24:10] fact, it’s the opposite. Yeah, yeah. Um, for back pain, you need to be moving as much as possible. [00:24:15] And posture has limited to no [00:24:20] role in the amount of back pain that you have. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How much of [00:24:25] back pain is, is sort of specific to the to the patient as opposed [00:24:30] to their habits. You know how you know in perio disease there are susceptible [00:24:35] patients.

Sam Cope: Oh, okay.

Payman Langroudi: Are there backs that are more susceptible. I mean, [00:24:40] does does a back have intrinsic areas of weakness different for [00:24:45] each person? Or would you say in your opinion that it’s just like we all get a similar [00:24:50] back and some of us treat it better than others?

Sam Cope: Yeah. I mean, some I mean, some people [00:24:55] will have medical conditions like scoliosis, which will. Yeah, yeah. Which will make them more susceptible. [00:25:00]

Payman Langroudi: I guess there’s a preclinical kind of.

Sam Cope: But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That could be going on in many of us. Right.

Sam Cope: The [00:25:05] biggest factor is just the amount of exercise that you do. And also your [00:25:10] your mental state has a massive component on it. Stress. Yeah, [00:25:15] definitely. Yeah. Um, if you’re if you’re in a really good place and [00:25:20] you’re doing lots of exercise. It’s very unlikely that you’re you’ll get back pain. But if [00:25:25] you’re, you know, depressed or very stressed at work, then you’re much more likely [00:25:30] to get back and you’re not exercising, then you’re much more likely to get back pain. [00:25:35] And then it’s interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Because I took five years off clinical practice when we started enlightened, [00:25:40] and then after five years, what I had in my head was mothers get [00:25:45] pregnant, take five years off, and then they come back and become dentists again. I thought I could just about [00:25:50] pull it off, you know. So it took five years off. On my first day back and my first week [00:25:55] back, I had an awful back pain. Yeah, I don’t think it was because, oh, my back wasn’t used [00:26:00] to. It was the stress of giving an ID block for the first time [00:26:05] in five years. You know, or, you know, cutting a crown for the first time in five years. All the things [00:26:10] that I was stressed, I was worried about how it would be going back. And [00:26:15] then once I realised, oh, it’s okay, I’m all right. Suddenly, the back pain went straight away [00:26:20] like it was. It was the stress that was causing it. You know.

Sam Cope: I think a lot of the stress comes from [00:26:25] if you get back pain, a lot of people don’t know what it is and [00:26:30] they think, oh, wow, have I really injured my back? You know what’s going on? Is it muscle? Is it. And [00:26:35] I think when when I did physiotherapy, it was all about kind of doing different [00:26:40] tests and then trying to find out what was going on. But never would it be an x ray or MRI. [00:26:45] Whereas with a, with dentistry, you know, you have to take the x ray and you see the problem, [00:26:50] you treat it and then you get rid of the caries or you do the root canal. But it’s very different [00:26:55] with back pain. I’d say 90% of back pain is non-specific. There is no [00:27:00] you can do every MRI x ray on the planet. You’ll never find the pain. It’s [00:27:05] so there was interesting. Yeah, there was a study that was done on [00:27:10] the amount of it basically had thousands of people and they’d [00:27:15] done MRIs Memorised throughout, you know, 20, 30, 40, 50. You know, you can have early [00:27:20] osteoarthritic changes at 20, but there’s no pain. [00:27:25] It’s what you see on an MRI isn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Related.

Sam Cope: Related to the pain. [00:27:30] Yeah. Which is what? So that’s why it always worries me when, you know, people get private medical [00:27:35] insurance and they get a bit of back pain, and then they go and get an MRI and they say, oh, you’ve got [00:27:40] a herniated disc here, or you’ve got osteoarthritic changes or disc thinning. [00:27:45] And then they’ll say, oh, well, you know, I’m going to go and see the surgeon because the surgeon sees, [00:27:50] you know, he’s only really it’s almost like the one hammer, one nail kind of thing. [00:27:55] So I’d, I’d just recommend anybody that does have back pain just to firstly find [00:28:00] an evidence based physiotherapist and then see them first and [00:28:05] then go from there. Really.

Payman Langroudi: But then if let’s say there is [00:28:10] like a slipped disc that could be causing a big problem. I guess one of the things you guys have [00:28:15] to learn is when to refer to a back specialist or like one.

Sam Cope: Yeah, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Spinal surgeon [00:28:20] or whatever. What’s that thing called where you can cause incontinence if you don’t take care [00:28:25] of it straight away?

Sam Cope: It’s called cauda equina.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right.

Sam Cope: Um, but yeah, these. [00:28:30] I mean, it’s so rare.

Payman Langroudi: Is it?

Sam Cope: Yeah, yeah. I mean, but that’s why it’s [00:28:35] so important. As soon as you if you get if you get back pain, it’s best just to settle your mind. Go and see a physiotherapist. [00:28:40] Yeah. And then they’ll be able to tell you if there’s, if there’s a real problem. And also [00:28:45] the if you do have a real like a herniated disc, then usually you’ll have [00:28:50] burning pins and needles, numbness down one or both legs all the time. Incontinence. [00:28:55] Yeah. You wouldn’t be waiting for your appointment. You know, you’d just be.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: You’d [00:29:00] know.

Payman Langroudi: So as a dentist, what are the things that we do that are really bad for our backs? Is [00:29:05] it as obvious as we don’t use loops and we, you know, what [00:29:10] are the top tips? What can we do? Exercise, stretch. That sort of thing.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I’d say top tips are [00:29:15] when you’re in surgery, the best posture is the next posture. Don’t [00:29:20] try and stick into one posture.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, interesting.

Sam Cope: Do whatever you feel is more comfortable. [00:29:25] And then that will really help with your pain. Another thing would be [00:29:30] our days are stressful. You know, you see the BDA guidelines of, you know, [00:29:35] you’ve got to do so many stretches in between patients and you’ve got to sit with one patient, stand with the next [00:29:40] patient.

Payman Langroudi: Is that right?

Sam Cope: That’s like, you know that’s intense. Like our days are already intense enough. [00:29:45] And if you’ve got like 30 NHS patients a day, how would you remember to do all this stuff? You won’t remember. [00:29:50] The most important thing is just to, you know, the NHS guidelines is to do 150 [00:29:55] minutes of moderate intensity exercise every day. Just going for a run or doing [00:30:00] the exercise that you enjoy is the most important, because that’s the one that you’ll continue [00:30:05] to do. If you try and force yourself to do, I don’t know the rowing machine and you don’t [00:30:10] like rowing, you won’t do it. You’ve got to give yourself an achievable goal. Um, [00:30:15] but also I do, um, I like it in America, where, you know, if you [00:30:20] want to get, like, strong, then you’ll get a personal trainer to help you in the gym. [00:30:25] Yeah. I feel like as a dentist, like, we go through so much stress, which we don’t [00:30:30] really talk to other people about it because I think it can be perceived as weakness or you’re [00:30:35] not doing your job correctly. But I think seeing counselling or having, um, psychological [00:30:40] help or therapist. Yeah, it’s really good. It’s almost like a personal trainer for your brain. [00:30:45] For your mind. Yeah. And all that. You know, you see these high corporate Americans or [00:30:50] even, like the people in Liverpool Street here or Fenchurch [00:30:55] Street, they’ve all got their own therapists because their jobs are so stressful. Talking [00:31:00] to them and then giving them strategies and being able to to help them really [00:31:05] helps you to kind of negotiate what’s going on in your [00:31:10] life and helps to reduce the stresses and makes you a better person, but also helps you deal [00:31:15] with your job and problems in a much more efficient way.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I think, you know, I do [00:31:20] that mental health thing with Rona, and one thing I found is very useful [00:31:25] way of looking at it is kind of what you said about, you know, there is a spectrum all the way from fully optimising [00:31:30] on one side to, you know, being really, really down on the other side. [00:31:35] And you can go up and down that, that staircase. Um, but [00:31:40] that, you know, some people will be on stair nine out of ten and want to get to ten out of ten because they [00:31:45] want to optimise as executives or whatever, and they’ll use a therapist for that. And some people [00:31:50] will be at rock bottom and want to just, you know, survive that. Um, [00:31:55] do you think that with your generation the sort of taboo of that is [00:32:00] less or would you say it’s still there?

Sam Cope: I think it’s definitely I think it’s definitely less [00:32:05] in my generation. I mean, I’m I know I’ve at the moment, my dad’s going through [00:32:10] some troubles and I’ve said, you know, you need to go and see a therapist and things and you do get a lot [00:32:15] of resistance.

Payman Langroudi: From from his generation.

Sam Cope: Yeah, he’s in his 60s and he’s, you [00:32:20] know, he’s the I feel like the life philosophies are very different, probably [00:32:25] from the parents talking to them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: I read a really interesting study. It was [00:32:30] I’m sure you’ve probably heard of it before, but it was a Harvard study and [00:32:35] it was called the Adult Development Research, and [00:32:40] it was basically 7 or 800 people, and they came [00:32:45] from all different backgrounds. Most of them were kind of Harvard guys. And then they also [00:32:50] got quite a few from Boston where they were kind of at rock bottom. And [00:32:55] they did a long term trial that went well. It’s still ongoing now, but it’s over [00:33:00] about eight years. And they were looking at happiness and [00:33:05] they found that. The trial’s almost conclusion. [00:33:10] I mean, it’s still ongoing, but happiness doesn’t come from fame, material [00:33:15] wealth. It comes from the quality of personal [00:33:20] relationships that you have with friends and family. That was the biggest determinant of [00:33:25] life longevity, happiness. And yeah, [00:33:30] and just overall overall kind of quality of life as well.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting isn’t [00:33:35] it? I mean, I think I was 45 before I disassociated happiness from [00:33:40] joy.

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I was up to 45, up to [00:33:45] 44. I used to think happiness must have a giant component of joy. [00:33:50] Mhm. And yet now I’ve changed my mind on it. I’ve changed my mind on it. I mean, [00:33:55] it’s surely nice to have joy around, right. There’s no there’s no doubt about that. Yeah. But I used to equate [00:34:00] them together so much and that’s not the case. I [00:34:05] felt it’s good for someone who learned this skill. I was I was telling my kid, I was telling my my 13 year [00:34:10] old about it, and I was saying, it’s much better for you to learn it at 13 than than wait till 44. [00:34:15]

Sam Cope: Yeah. It’s so true. I mean, I was listening to a podcast with [00:34:20] Steven Bartlett, and he had somebody on there and he, you know, after you earn a certain amount [00:34:25] of money, I think the figure is like 100, 150,000 or something. Anything you earn [00:34:30] over that amount, it’s not really improving your happiness. It’s it’s just pleasure. So [00:34:35] like when you buy like the latest Ferrari or a new watch or something like that. [00:34:40] Yeah. You are, you’re giving yourself joy or pleasure. Yeah. And pleasure [00:34:45] and joy. That’s addictive. Yes. You want to get the next thing.

Payman Langroudi: Short and.

Sam Cope: Short bursts. [00:34:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: And I think the key thing for that is, you know, a lot [00:34:55] of dentists are working five days a week and trying to trying to fund this pleasure. [00:35:00] Yeah. And I think sometimes it’s good to take a step back. You know, you don’t need to keep [00:35:05] up with the Joneses, you know? You see, my my step dad said to me [00:35:10] he was. He worked on the rigs and he was the manager of the the rig. He was [00:35:15] on the biggest amount of money. And one of the roustabouts, he was like the guy that’s like mopping [00:35:20] the rig. He said to him, like, God, it must be great being you. Like you’ve got so much [00:35:25] money. And Graham just said to him, look, the more money you earn, it’s just [00:35:30] different levels of skint because you just end up buying a bigger house [00:35:35] or buying something else, and then you just become a slave to what you own. Yeah. And I think I was listening [00:35:40] to this Jemmy Carr podcast and he was saying.

Payman Langroudi: I love him. I love.

Sam Cope: Him outside.

Payman Langroudi: Of comedy. [00:35:45] I like him in comedy. But when I’ve heard him speak outside of comedy, I [00:35:50] really, really like him.

Sam Cope: So philosophical.

Payman Langroudi: He’s brilliant. What is he saying? What was he saying?

Sam Cope: So he said [00:35:55] he was, um. He was taken. He was in America, and [00:36:00] this guy was taking him around this massive house and you had like, you know, [00:36:05] tons of cars and Ferraris and stuff. And he said to him, he took [00:36:10] him around that he was giving him a tour of the house, and he showed him this piece of artwork, and he said, Jemmy, [00:36:15] I bet this piece of artwork is probably worth [00:36:20] more than your whole salary for the year. And he says, and [00:36:25] then Jemmy, he’s great at his comebacks, isn’t he? Yeah, yeah. And he just said. He [00:36:30] said, you know what? Well, I’ve got something that he will never have. [00:36:35] The guy was like, what? Enough.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. Yeah. [00:36:40]

Sam Cope: And it’s so true isn’t it. Yeah. And I think for dentists too. Like [00:36:45] when is enough. Enough. When have you got what. Everything that you [00:36:50] need. Like why do you have to keep striving for like the next car or the next Rolex or [00:36:55] the next something. I think sometimes it’s good.

Payman Langroudi: I take your point and it’s a very good point. It’s a correct [00:37:00] point. Yeah. And it’s funny because in my language, the [00:37:05] root word for contentment and for wealth [00:37:10] is the same, same word, which is [00:37:15] sad, right? Because those two are very different to each other. But but there [00:37:20] is a thing. There is a thing. I remember talking to Robbie Hughes. You’ll know him. And [00:37:25] chasing watches and cars and planes is ridiculously stupid. [00:37:30] And there’s always a bigger watch and plane and car and all that, and it runs out very quickly. But I will [00:37:35] say something about money. Acceleration of wealth is very exciting. [00:37:40]

Sam Cope: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: For a while, for a second, for about a month. So you’ll, you’ll know this. You change [00:37:45] practice. You go to a new practice let’s say oh let’s say it’s a big jump like from NHS to [00:37:50] private. Right. And then the same mod whereas before it was whatever udas [00:37:55] now it’s £295 or something on the first one you do and you think, [00:38:00] wow, £295. Maybe you’ll do the reflection thing. Try and make it even a better one and better [00:38:05] one. But after a month, that just feels totally normal.

Sam Cope: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:38:10] it’s that moment of acceleration of wealth are quite exciting. And that’s one [00:38:15] thing about wealth. Yeah. Um, but Robbie would talk about living up to your [00:38:20] potential. And I find that quite an interesting way of thinking [00:38:25] about things because it’s not. It’s not my default. Yeah. But it definitely was his. You know, as [00:38:30] a sportsman, you know, he would say that, and he would look at dentistry as he wants to live up [00:38:35] to his potential in dentistry. You know, the dentist he wants to make in the world. Yeah.

Sam Cope: Yeah. [00:38:40] That’s great. Yeah, I think I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Canal, although you could take that back and say, hey, [00:38:45] where does that come from? Yeah.

Sam Cope: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like, how come you need to make a dent in the world? Like, why can’t you just [00:38:50] have tea and cakes with your kids, you know?

Sam Cope: Yeah. I think [00:38:55] as dentists, I think we are all cursed with the high achiever. I think if we were, you [00:39:00] know, if you want, if you, you know, I mean, I [00:39:05] was speaking to my brother about this. He’s a barrister. And he was saying to me like, you [00:39:10] know, we are quite well educated and we’re very privileged to be where we are [00:39:15] now.

Payman Langroudi: You and him.

Sam Cope: Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Um, but he said, wouldn’t it [00:39:20] be great if, like, you could just be happy and content with, like, just like a two [00:39:25] up, two down, two kids and, you know, just like a job that you go to every day and you’re completely [00:39:30] content. He said, we’re cursed with the fact that we have to achieve, and you have to do [00:39:35] this to get your happiness. Whereas most, you know, most people don’t have that. [00:39:40] Like, you know, when we talk about our, our lives, it doesn’t [00:39:45] we’re not like the, the general public, which sounds crazy, which [00:39:50] sounds like, yeah, crazy, but it is true. Like I do think we are. We are [00:39:55] all really high achievers, but I think that, um. Yeah, [00:40:00] I think so. Kunal Patel, he’s been a fantastic [00:40:05] mentor for me. And he said to me, look, when you start at love teeth, don’t think [00:40:10] about. Don’t be thinking about the money and things. He said just be the best dentist [00:40:15] that you can be and the money will just come from there. And it is true. I mean, I’ve been there for [00:40:20] a year and I’ve been doing the reflection thing and my, my biggest, [00:40:25] um, I get the most joy out of seeing patients that are really happy and my restorations [00:40:30] lasting a long time and them coming back. And then you’re building that rapport with patients [00:40:35] and you find that the the better you are. That way the money just [00:40:40] comes with it. And then you can do more things and improve in different ways. [00:40:45] And that’s where I found my happiness rather than directly in the money. I think if you [00:40:50] look directly at the money, sometimes that can lead to kind of burnout [00:40:55] as well.

Payman Langroudi: It’s it’s not inspirational, is it? It’s not, it’s not, it’s not it’s a massive [00:41:00] error. It’s a massive error. And as you say, the money is a very relative thing anyway, man. And that [00:41:05] that your dad’s thing was very true. It reminded me of what I was saying. My brother’s an NHS. [00:41:10] Uh, well, not an he’s a consultant radiologist, doesn’t like his [00:41:15] job very much. Hates it. And then I said to him, hey, would you be happy in your job if you earned six [00:41:20] times as much? And he said, well, of course I would. Um, but [00:41:25] then I said to him, but your day would be the exact same day. Yeah. And you know that that [00:41:30] guy mopping the rig with your dad?

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: They’re both on that rig. [00:41:35] Yeah, yeah, with water, you know, the rain falling on their heads or your dad’s taking [00:41:40] more than that guy. Yeah, but their day is the same kind of day.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I said, I said, I don’t [00:41:45] know how you did it for as long as you did. I said, it’s like a working Alcatraz out there. [00:41:50] It’s worse than Alcatraz because.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ever been on one?

Sam Cope: I haven’t, thank god. But, [00:41:55] um. But. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Would we be away for six months at a time or something?

Sam Cope: We usually do 2 to 3. [00:42:00] Three weeks on, three weeks off.

Payman Langroudi: Three weeks?

Sam Cope: Yeah. So, yeah, it [00:42:05] was. It seemed intense. It seemed to. He seemed to really like it. Um, but. [00:42:10] So this is my stepdad. So he married my mom probably about ten years ago. But, [00:42:15] yeah, when he finished working on the rig, it was, like, the best day of his life. He he [00:42:20] was really happy to finish because, you know, you’re in the North Sea. It’s freezing cold. [00:42:25] And you were on 12 hour shifts for three weeks. But he said [00:42:30] that some of the guys that worked on the rigs, they’d come off and then they’d just they lived in [00:42:35] Thailand or something, or you could just live wherever you wanted to in the world. So they lived like a king in Thailand. [00:42:40] Even these roustabouts that are on hardly any money.

Payman Langroudi: So interesting.

Sam Cope: Jet [00:42:45] off over there. And also while they’re on the rig, everything’s paid for.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. In general, the pay [00:42:50] is quite good, isn’t it? On it.

Sam Cope: Yeah. Yeah. The pay is decent. Yeah, but I mean, even [00:42:55] I mean, my cousin also did it, and now he works [00:43:00] on wind farms and things in the North Sea. But have you, have you heard about the training [00:43:05] that they have to do for that? So when they when they want to [00:43:10] go on the rig, they have to learn how to get out of a helicopter that’s going [00:43:15] under the water and things. So they’re all strapped in, and then they’re in a swimming pool and they’re in [00:43:20] kind of a kind of setup, and then they’re dunked into the pool. [00:43:25] Yeah, my cousin said he was in the front and he was quite calm. He’s quite, quite, quite a calm [00:43:30] person when it comes to things like that. But he said the person behind him wasn’t calm [00:43:35] at all and he was really flapping around and he was kind of grabbing my cousin down while it was going [00:43:40] underwater. They have divers there to help, but he said that was a really scary thing. And it’s [00:43:45] something like once a helicopter hits the sea, it will sink at a metre a second. [00:43:50]

Payman Langroudi: Or.

Sam Cope: So. Once it goes in. And yeah, I mean in a swimming [00:43:55] pool, it’s probably quite nice.

Payman Langroudi: But there are accidents, right? There are accidents of all sorts in those situations. [00:44:00] Right.

Sam Cope: Oh yeah, 100%. So you’ve got to learn, I mean, whether I think [00:44:05] it’s almost like the security at an airport, it’s probably they do these training things just to kind of give you that [00:44:10] sense of security. But if you’re in rough seas in the North Sea, even if you got out of the plane, [00:44:15] those waves are huge.

Payman Langroudi: So do you remember a time where [00:44:20] something switched in your brain because you’re you’re definitely now like after [00:44:25] excellence and doing the best and all of that. And yet you’re telling me [00:44:30] back in your teens you thought you couldn’t get the grades [00:44:35] for dentistry? Do you think you could have got the grades for dentistry, but you had the sort [00:44:40] of like a problem with confidence? Or [00:44:45] was there or were you a kid who wasn’t, you know, crossing the t’s and dotting the i’s while [00:44:50] in your teens. But then something happened in physiotherapy inspired you to say, [00:44:55] oh God, now I want to be the best, I want to, I want to learn everything. Do you remember an inflection [00:45:00] point or what would you what comes to mind when I say that?

Sam Cope: I think, um, I think when I was at school, [00:45:05] I was never kind of a massive high achiever. I was very average. And then when I got to college, [00:45:10] I did a slightly better. And then when I did want to finish.

Payman Langroudi: College, do you mean A-levels? Yeah.

Sam Cope: Yeah. And [00:45:15] then when I finished my degree, I managed to I managed to get a first [00:45:20] in my degree.

Payman Langroudi: And so in that period it was, it was constantly becoming more [00:45:25] and more into what you were doing.

Sam Cope: And I think it was more I think it was more like the belief [00:45:30] in yourself and the fact that actually I can.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: Really do it and all it takes [00:45:35] because I’m not a naturally clever person. But like when I revise when [00:45:40] I was revising for physio or probably I revise more for physio than I did for dentistry, I [00:45:45] won’t lie. Um, but I remember doing like 12, 13 hour days for months. [00:45:50] And it proved to me that if you just really put the time in and put the hard work [00:45:55] in, then yeah, you can kind of do whatever you want.

Payman Langroudi: But what was it that [00:46:00] made you switch from being not that person in college to being that person in [00:46:05] university?

Sam Cope: Uh, probably. I mean, probably just probably [00:46:10] just like adversity. I would of thought, because I had a, I had a few, like, family [00:46:15] problems and things that were going on at the time. And then I just thought, right, I’ve really got.

Payman Langroudi: To the books. [00:46:20]

Sam Cope: Because I just thought because I almost got cut off at one point from, [00:46:25] um, my dad and family. And I just thought, wow, I’m completely on my own [00:46:30] here. If I don’t make this by myself, then I’m buggered. So I just thought, [00:46:35] right, I’ll just get my head in the books and just study my head off. And then my biological dad. That’s [00:46:40] my biological dad. Yeah. Um, so. Yeah, so I think I think sometimes [00:46:45] it does take. I know there’s there’s lots of famous people that say this, but when you do [00:46:50] have adversity, it really does drive you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there would be no [00:46:55] Beethoven. There would be no Steve Jobs, you know, like all these people [00:47:00] went through massive adversity. Um, it’s interesting because [00:47:05] on one level, we’re talking about being content and peace and that [00:47:10] being the thing that we’re after. But on another level, it’s [00:47:15] the, you know, the pressure of life that’s brought out all this genius. Yeah.

Sam Cope: Yeah, [00:47:20] yeah. I think you’ve I think the end goal like, I’ve, I’ve obviously [00:47:25] had to work like really hard to get to where I am. But my end goal was always to kind of once [00:47:30] I’ve got to a point that I’m happy then to take a step [00:47:35] back and I can do my reflections and just take things a bit easier, more easily, [00:47:40] um, which seems to be working a lot better now, But that’s really that’s really [00:47:45] hard to do because, you know, everybody else is working five days a week. [00:47:50] And then you say to people, oh, I’m just doing three clinical days and it’s like, oh, wow, what’s wrong with you?

Payman Langroudi: No, it’s amazing. [00:47:55] I think it’s amazing. There would be no enlightened if I was doing five days a week as a dentist. Yeah. [00:48:00] No way. Um, but but also, I think it’s [00:48:05] not a rule for everyone, but I think for someone like me that if you want [00:48:10] to do dentistry at a high level, if you want to really take care of every step, [00:48:15] um, including the, you know, the social side, making people feel [00:48:20] amazing, including your staff, your patients, you know, all of that [00:48:25] and pay attention to the steps of the actual dentistry itself, the treatment, planning, all that. If you’re [00:48:30] working at that level, I think four days is the absolute maximum that you [00:48:35] can do that at a high level. Mhm. Once you take it to five days I think you then you [00:48:40] start. Okay I wouldn’t even say taking shortcuts, but it would be like I [00:48:45] would temporise something or I wouldn’t be at the top of my game mentally at the top of my [00:48:50] game, if I was treatment planning or, you know, talking to patients, then just something would slip. [00:48:55] And I think three days is absolutely perfect. Absolutely perfect. Whether [00:49:00] the other two days you’re going to do what you’re doing reflection, education, promotion [00:49:05] or something else altogether, you know.

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Property, [00:49:10] whatever. Whatever. You read a book by the river, you know, whatever, whatever it is for you. But [00:49:15] we’re lucky in that a lot of us on three days can earn enough [00:49:20] to support the life we want. It’s not the case in many jobs, right?

Sam Cope: It’s an incredible [00:49:25] opportunity. Like, I don’t really know any. And also how flexible [00:49:30] we can be as well. With our job. You can choose what days you want to do with which practice, which is so [00:49:35] rare in almost all professions. Isn’t it really? Yeah. Um. [00:49:40] Yeah. So important, I think, to like, I, I love, um, [00:49:45] I love, like, dentistry, but I love doing things outside of dentistry, so I’m a bit of [00:49:50] an adrenaline junkie. So I love kind of going skiing and doing [00:49:55] tricks and things, which is great. But then, um, I [00:50:00] wanted to speak a little bit about this because I was part of the, um, the skydiving [00:50:05] team in Liverpool, too. So I just look, when I got to, because I was, [00:50:10] I was quite I was so fortunate to be able to do another degree. I then thought, [00:50:15] right, what can I do that’s really out there? So it was £180 and [00:50:20] they taught you how to skydive on your own and then you got two jumps. So [00:50:25] everybody kind of got taught and then everybody kind of boozed the night before, [00:50:30] which they said, don’t drink anything. So I’m like, okay. And then you stayed in like a big bunker. [00:50:35] And then it was quite funny because the people that were really cocky on the [00:50:40] on the day and on the training.

Payman Langroudi: On the ground.

Sam Cope: When we were on this like tin can of a plane and [00:50:45] it was all ricocheting around everywhere, it felt like D-Day. And [00:50:50] they were really scared and didn’t say anything. You could just see one of them just completely [00:50:55] white. And then, um, and then. Yeah, and then jumping out of the plane. [00:51:00] And it was in the Lake District so you could see.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful.

Sam Cope: Yeah. So beautiful. All the mountains. [00:51:05] And you flew it down yourself. So I’d say for anyone, like if anybody’s listening to this, that’s like at university, [00:51:10] just take up all the opportunities that you possibly can.

Payman Langroudi: Did you just do those two [00:51:15] jumps or did you? No, I did loads and loads.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I did loads. Yeah. I almost like I [00:51:20] wanted to try and get my license, but it’s so hard in the UK because the weather’s not great. So [00:51:25] if the weather’s over, if sorry, if the wind is over 20 miles an hour, then [00:51:30] it’s difficult to land because the parachute goes is 20 miles an hour, then the training [00:51:35] parachutes. So you just end up.

Payman Langroudi: So did you free fall as well or not? [00:51:40]

Sam Cope: Yeah, we did. From free fall. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What’s that feeling like? Because I’ve been on those ones. Where? On [00:51:45] the ground. The fan thing. Oh, yeah. That feels good. But you’re not falling anywhere, right?

Sam Cope: It’s cool. Yeah. [00:51:50] And then. Yeah, you have to. So when you go through it, you. You jump out on a static line to start [00:51:55] off with about 3000, 3500ft. And then you’ll move on to [00:52:00] kind of dummy pulls where you’re like pretend to pull.

Payman Langroudi: Aha.

Sam Cope: And then you show the tutor [00:52:05] that you can do it. And then eventually you take you higher, and then you do a bit of freefall and then you go further [00:52:10] and further that way. I had a friend and I got there a little bit later [00:52:15] that day, and I spoke to another one of my friends who was on the ground, [00:52:20] and they said, oh, it’s the first plane gone up. And he said, yeah, the first plane has gone up and Ben is on the plane. [00:52:25] I was like, oh, okay, cool. And then I saw people, like jumping out on the static lines. [00:52:30] And when you’re when you when the [00:52:35] parachute opens, you have to wait. You do. You do this thing and it’s like [00:52:40] you go 1000, 2000, 3000. And then you say it again, and then [00:52:45] you look at your canopy and you make sure that it’s square and that everything looks okay. But [00:52:50] I saw somebody kind of as soon as they came out the plane, you could see they were [00:52:55] kind of flapping around a bit, and he pulled his, his cord. So [00:53:00] it meant that, um, so he kind of cut away from it. And then I saw him kind [00:53:05] of like flipping in the air. And then just at the last minute, he managed to pull his [00:53:10] reserve, and then just about kind of crash landed into the field. [00:53:15] So we all went to kind of get him. Anyway, he was grounded for six months after that. But it’s [00:53:20] just.

Payman Langroudi: He was injured.

Sam Cope: No, he was fine.

Payman Langroudi: So why was he grounded?

Sam Cope: He [00:53:25] was grounded.

Payman Langroudi: In traumatic stress.

Sam Cope: Um, so the tutors will just say, look, you can’t [00:53:30] parachute now for the next six months just to kind of get your head straight. It’s almost like after a poker [00:53:35] game when you lose and they say, right, you need to like have like five days out now. Yeah. But [00:53:40] yeah, the same way. But yeah. Did you just.

Payman Langroudi: Carry on jumping out of planes when you saw that, [00:53:45] did that not scare you to not do it anymore or.

Sam Cope: Um, no, [00:53:50] it didn’t, because I just thought it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Not gonna happen to me.

Sam Cope: Yeah. Well, I the [00:53:55] thing is, is that the guys that teach you, they are ex-military, so they kind of teach [00:54:00] you a really regimented profile of what to do. And they’re showing you pictures of what the canopies look like. [00:54:05] And every time you go up, they’ll say, like, Sam, what would you do with this? Sam, what would you do with this? And I’d be like, yeah, cut away. [00:54:10] No, I’d keep that one or I’d wiggle it around or something. So [00:54:15] it was a good it’s a good thing to do as well because you learn like [00:54:20] what’s important to you and like how to manage stress. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, you know what I’m [00:54:25] interested in? Yeah. Like, as an adrenaline junkie, like, do you like motorbikes and [00:54:30] jet skis and, like, everything. That’s adrenaline.

Sam Cope: Yeah. Jet skis. I think my [00:54:35] mum would kill me if I got motorbikes and things, so. I love jet skis, but.

Payman Langroudi: As a [00:54:40] as a adrenaline junkie, it’s. I don’t know whether this is true or not. Yeah. Like, [00:54:45] is it that there was a lot of adrenaline in the system because of whatever reason [00:54:50] as a child? Yeah. And so you’re comfortable with adrenaline with the next man [00:54:55] didn’t have. Yeah. Just let me let me just set an example here. As a child, [00:55:00] there’s a drunk father who’s screaming and shouting, and the kid doesn’t know [00:55:05] how to handle it. Adrenaline. Adrenaline and adrenaline. Now, as an adult, he’s an adrenaline junkie. Is there [00:55:10] such a thing as such a link? Yeah. Number one. And number two. I find, you know the rate [00:55:15] of stuff here. So the rate of stuff changing for me [00:55:20] in a walk just isn’t quick enough. Yeah. I just just [00:55:25] does my head in. It doesn’t. The rhythm of a walk really, really annoys me a lot. Although [00:55:30] on a travelator thing, you know, in the airport that rate. [00:55:35] Yeah. I adore that, like, I could do that all day. I’m still walking, right? I’m still [00:55:40] walking. But stuff’s changing at a different rate. Yeah. And on a bicycle, [00:55:45] I could cycle all day as well. You know, stuff’s changing, but on a walk, it’s changing too slowly for [00:55:50] me. And I wonder whether that’s a similar thing to this adrenaline.

Sam Cope: Yeah. [00:55:55] Yeah. Possibly. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think when I was younger, I mean, my [00:56:00] I remember my friend’s mums didn’t really like me coming round because I’d climb [00:56:05] to like the, I’d climb the tree to the highest branch and they’d be like, oh, where’s Sam? It’s like, oh, he’s [00:56:10] up there. Yeah. And like, yeah. So I think it’s almost like [00:56:15] probably a little bit of nurture. But I reckon nature like I think [00:56:20] I think, yeah, almost just like you.

Payman Langroudi: Haven’t got kids have you.

Sam Cope: No, not at the moment. [00:56:25] No, no.

Payman Langroudi: With kids you’re on the first day the kid’s born. You see, you notice massive difference when you have two. When [00:56:30] you have a second one, the first day you notice, oh my god, totally different child. Like yeah. It’s [00:56:35] like they’ve only been around for one day right? So the nurture hasn’t had much time unless [00:56:40] of course, I don’t know in the tummy maybe.

Sam Cope: Yeah. I suppose just like the different genes that they’ve got. I [00:56:45] mean, me and me and my brother were completely different. Right. But we’re it’s quite nice [00:56:50] because me and my brother were we’re best friends, but we do completely different jobs, [00:56:55] like, I’m. I’m a dentist. He’s a barrister. So what.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of barrister.

Sam Cope: Is he? He does crime and civil. So [00:57:00] I went to see him on one of his cases. Actually. It was really good. It felt like I was on like a drama documentary [00:57:05] or something.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: Have you ever seen a court?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Sam Cope: It’s very cool. [00:57:10] I definitely I mean, you can just go in to watch any kind of, um, case [00:57:15] that’s on. It was quite good with him because I’d be in a coffee shop working and he’d say, oh, Sam, like, [00:57:20] get here. This is, this is going to be the good bit. So then I’d get there and then they’d do the, um, [00:57:25] they do the things.

Payman Langroudi: I went to one. My friend had an issue and we [00:57:30] went. The lawyer said, which barrister do you want? Do you want, you know, like a standard one? Or should we get a super duper [00:57:35] one? And we said, all right, how much is it? Whatever. And then we went, we said, let’s get the super duper one. Let’s let’s see what happens. [00:57:40] And we went in. And who’s that person in a court, you know, who’s like, she’s not on either [00:57:45] side. She’s not one of the judges, just the person running everything.

Sam Cope: But the usher.

Payman Langroudi: The usher, someone [00:57:50] like that. She was basically running everything. Yeah, she was one talking more than anyone else. And she was kind of in charge. [00:57:55] Right? And I remember the couple of cases happened before my buddy had to go up and [00:58:00] I could see. Who the hell is this person? Like, she’s in charge here, right? Because she wasn’t a judge. She [00:58:05] wasn’t a lawyer. She was just a person running the show here. Anyway, the barrister steps in [00:58:10] the super duper one and immediately says something to her in legalese, right. That I [00:58:15] didn’t understand what he said, but she turned from, like, running the show to looking [00:58:20] through her notes and like, being cowering down a little bit. Yeah. And I just in that first [00:58:25] sentence, I realised, oh, like the expensive barista knows these tricks, [00:58:30] right?

Sam Cope: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting that they have a they always have a conference [00:58:35] between the judge and the two barristers before. So like before a crime, um, before [00:58:40] something to do with to do with like a criminal case. They’ll say the judge will say, [00:58:45] what do you think? And the barristers will just be like, yeah, he’s definitely done it.

Payman Langroudi: No [00:58:50] way.

Sam Cope: And then sometimes the judge will just say, look, just say, I mean, you know, the prisons are like overrun at [00:58:55] the moment. So sometimes the case that I was told the judge had just said, look, [00:59:00] just, just say to them like, he’s definitely he’ll definitely end up going to prison. This guy, if he’s found guilty [00:59:05] and he’s clearly guilty, but just say he can have a six month suspended sentence and [00:59:10] a fine. So they went back to him and then he they said, oh, I’m really sorry. [00:59:15] But he said he wants to go through with the trial. And the judge was like, what? Because he was [00:59:20] almost definitely guilty. Yeah. But I tell you what, the amount of money that is [00:59:25] wasted on these trials and things is just.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny thing, though, because if you admit [00:59:30] it, you get a shorter sentence. But if, let’s say you actually didn’t do it. Yeah. And [00:59:35] there you risk a much longer sentence. Yeah. It’s mad. It’s a mad thing when you [00:59:40] think about it. But what really confused me about the law is how important the lawyer [00:59:45] is. Like, so, like, I always had this sort of idea that the law, you know, the [00:59:50] truth, will out in a legal situation. But the lawyer is the key thing. Yeah. [00:59:55]

Sam Cope: It’s whoever can run the theatre the best, isn’t it? It’s like [01:00:00] whoever can act the best. Yeah. Um, and whoever’s, like, more convincing, too. [01:00:05] So. Yeah. So this trial that ended up going on ended up being [01:00:10] a hung jury. So then they’re having to do the trial again in, like, eight months time. [01:00:15] My brother was like, yeah, I think I’ll get him on the next one because because there’s no way he can keep his story [01:00:20] straight, because he’s clearly lying. But I think it only takes like 1 or 2 people in the jury [01:00:25] just to be adamant that they think that he’s right. And then. Yeah, and then it’s hung and then crazy. [01:00:30]

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about after you [01:00:35] did monarch’s course, you decided you want to be that kind of dentist. [01:00:40] Did you change job then to go find that kind of job that [01:00:45] you.

Sam Cope: So when I, um, when I finished that course, um, [01:00:50] I was working, still working at the dental house, and I was doing some, [01:00:55] uh, I was doing NHS work, and then I was kind of increasing the amount of private work that I was [01:01:00] doing. Just naturally. Just because you’re selling gets better. Yeah. [01:01:05] And then while almost towards the end of the year long course, [01:01:10] um, I was very, very, um, privileged to be asked by monarch [01:01:15] to be his apprentice. Yeah. So then I, um, finished my job [01:01:20] at the Dental house, and then I worked as his apprentice for um for quite a while. [01:01:25] And that was that was amazing. That kind of made me the dentist [01:01:30] that I am today. And it was quite it was quite humbling because I was able and I was [01:01:35] so I was so lucky. And I’m so grateful for that experience because I was able [01:01:40] to see, firstly, a very charismatic person and a [01:01:45] very experienced dentist teach. And I got to be able to see his work, but [01:01:50] also seeing lots of different dentists, like lots and lots of [01:01:55] cohorts of people. Yeah. Um, and how, what their skills like. And you [01:02:00] do realise when you’re on those courses because I always thought to myself like, oh, I don’t think I’m [01:02:05] that good a dentist. I don’t think I’m cutting the crowns as like perfect as everybody else. But [01:02:10] you realise like, you know, even the really experienced dentists can’t cut crowns [01:02:15] really, really well and can’t do, like, really good dentistry [01:02:20] all the time. So it was very good to see, and it was really nice [01:02:25] to be able to help people and you could see their progression and things. And I think, um, [01:02:30] yeah, that was a fantastic experience. And also when the [01:02:35] lectures were going on, we’d be messing around with composite and practising and doing composite [01:02:40] veneers and fillings and things like that.

Payman Langroudi: So I think, I think repetition is such a massive thing.

Sam Cope: Huge. [01:02:45]

Payman Langroudi: Such a massive, you know, I saw mini smile makeover. I’m still learning, you know. Still I must have [01:02:50] watched it 80, 90 times, right. Still still learning.

Sam Cope: Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And repetition [01:02:55] people just underestimate the value of repetition. And you know, you saw his content however [01:03:00] many times. But you’re also right explaining teaching is one of the best ways of learning, isn’t [01:03:05] it?

Sam Cope: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: You have to understand it yourself very well, and you learn from the questions [01:03:10] that people, people ask. So then you were doing more of this work then what happened [01:03:15] next?

Sam Cope: Um, so then I kind of wanted to create [01:03:20] my own brand and I was going to move back to Liverpool. So then I [01:03:25] left the practice with monarch, and then I went to Liverpool and [01:03:30] I wanted to get a private job, but I ended up working kind of almost five [01:03:35] days in five different practices, which I definitely wouldn’t recommend to anyone, [01:03:40] but it was very it was an incredible experience because I was working at Roderick’s, [01:03:45] my dentist, um, and then a couple of other private [01:03:50] practices as well. And that was that was amazing because I was able. [01:03:55]

Payman Langroudi: To see.

Sam Cope: Like, yeah, how loads of different practices run, what works, [01:04:00] what doesn’t work, and the importance, like the importance of having a nurse [01:04:05] like I was, I had like two suitcases of all my stuff, like with, [01:04:10] um, computers and equipment and composite and everything, because I wanted to still try and keep [01:04:15] Consistent, so I spent a lot of money on my own things to be able to deliver [01:04:20] kind of the quality of dentistry that I wanted to give and I wasn’t happy with, like using [01:04:25] different materials and different places. So, so yeah, so I used to [01:04:30] so I did that for a while. And then I also whilst I was at one of the practices, there were a couple of [01:04:35] dentists that were relatively newly qualified. So I thought, well that’d be a good opportunity [01:04:40] to kind of help them. Yeah. So I on like Wednesday nights or something, I just [01:04:45] I had a couple of phantom heads. So like showed them how to do different composites and like help [01:04:50] them improve their kind of skills and things. And that was that was really rewarding.

Payman Langroudi: Two [01:04:55] things. What were lessons you learned from those five practices or from all the ones you worked [01:05:00] because you’ve worked in quite a few now? Yeah, good and bad. What would you say? [01:05:05] Like, are you are you thinking of starting your own practice one day? Maybe.

Sam Cope: Uh, I, [01:05:10] I’ve seen how all these practices run, and I think that I’m quite happy [01:05:15] being being an associate for now.

Payman Langroudi: For now. For now, don’t rule it out from [01:05:20] the associate perspective. Then what things have you seen that have been like? What do you think [01:05:25] best practice that you know you’ve learned from the corporate setting? I mean, you can learn a lot from my dentist. [01:05:30] You know, I’m involved with them. It’s an impressive company, man. It’s an impressive [01:05:35] company to be able to pull off what they’ve pulled off across 600 sites. 600? [01:05:40]

Sam Cope: Yeah. Crazy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, you’ve got four practices and nightmare is [01:05:45] 600. Yeah.

Sam Cope: Yeah. Unbelievable. I mean, yeah I thought yeah, they’ve [01:05:50] they’ve all got good points and they’ve all got some bad points as well.

Payman Langroudi: A few, a few [01:05:55] gems that you can come up with.

Sam Cope: Um I think as a practice, [01:06:00] I think the most important thing is kind of your, your team. [01:06:05] So I think like being in a practice where you’ve got other people that are there that [01:06:10] you can kind of learn and bounce ideas off is really important. Um, I think [01:06:15] having a practice manager as well, that’s really kind and nice and wants [01:06:20] every everything to work works really well. It’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Tough role. It’s a tough role. Practice [01:06:25] manager is a tough role.

Sam Cope: And also, um, what I’ve learned is you [01:06:30] want to try and stay friendly with every member of the team, and you want to be [01:06:35] humble with everybody, and you should never. I think most, [01:06:40] most important person to treat as nicely as you possibly can and with respect, is [01:06:45] your nurse there on not very much money and they’re helping you out all the time. And [01:06:50] the more you can help them, the more they’ll help you.

Payman Langroudi: Not to mention, not to mention I really [01:06:55] think this. I mean, I think respecting your nurse is a massive. Respecting the person you’re spending the whole day with [01:07:00] is an important thing by itself. Oh, yeah. An aim in itself. But [01:07:05] respecting your nurse in public. So respecting your nurse in front of your patient [01:07:10] Mhm. Wins you massive points with your patient 100%. People don’t realise that [01:07:15] nuance. You know it’s a nuance. But some, some people don’t realise that nuance. [01:07:20] And letting your nurse take a bit more responsibility than she might normally. Deciding [01:07:25] making certain decisions, whatever those decisions are, makes them feel great. [01:07:30] But so in the I can’t imagine any of the ones you’ve worked with, the vibe is more [01:07:35] friendly than Love Teeth. Is it because Love Teeth is a real good vibe [01:07:40] in there? I don’t know. I’ve done work there.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I found that working at all of the practices [01:07:45] working at Love Teeth is just such a breath of fresh air, because [01:07:50] really, everything just runs like a really well-oiled machine. [01:07:55] Like when I was at different practices, you know, I’d have some nurses that were great, [01:08:00] some nurses that needed a lot of input and like, a lot of help. The nurses [01:08:05] that love teeth are unbelievable. They, you know, they’re scanning for me [01:08:10] the really attentive and they and they almost want to learn about how you’re doing stuff [01:08:15] and love that I, you know, after a couple of months with the nurse, my nurses, [01:08:20] she’s called Shea and she’s fantastic. You know, I, [01:08:25] I help her out. And I found this really works as a good kind of hack. So in [01:08:30] the morning, my commute on the train, I will look through all of my patients [01:08:35] so I know what I’m doing. And I’ll leave a little note to say what we’re doing with the nurse, just [01:08:40] so that she can prepare everything so that it’s not stressful. And I’ll say like, you know, this could be a [01:08:45] root canal, or it could be an extraction to get things out for both. And then I do like a [01:08:50] little handover in.

Payman Langroudi: The morning on the.

Sam Cope: So I have Dental. So I just place it on [01:08:55] the. Yeah I just place it on the software. Yeah. I think that’s a real game changer. And it really helps [01:09:00] to kind of rapport with the nurse and when things are running really smoothly because you’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Helped her out stressed. That’s what you’re saying right? [01:09:05]

Sam Cope: Yeah. And you’re not stressing because you know everything that’s going on in the day. The nurse knows what’s going on [01:09:10] in the day. So it means that when you do have a bit of time, you can have a bit of chit chat and a laugh and, you know, you can ask them [01:09:15] about their day. It’s like, even for Christmas, I know she had, um, three children, [01:09:20] so I got all I’ve never met them, but I got them. She was telling me a bit about them and what [01:09:25] they like throughout the year. So it was. I bought them all gifts and things [01:09:30] and it’s so important. It’s just the little things that that can really help. And I think when [01:09:35] you’re at these practices learning everybody’s name, learning, you know, it’s like the Dale Carnegie thing. [01:09:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Learn a little bit about them. And then, you know, that helps you build rapport. The other thing [01:09:45] is when I was doing my foundation training, um, I [01:09:50] had a really good mentor, actually, Jane Willett in Glenside practice, um, in [01:09:55] the Wirral. And she had me working as a nurse [01:10:00] for a bit, and she had me working as the receptionist. The receptionist was by far the hardest job because [01:10:05] even though you’re a dentist, Patients will see you as a receptionist and treat you terribly and [01:10:10] you realise that, yeah, like they’re really like quite they can be really [01:10:15] quite cruel to you. And sometimes it’s just because I don’t know if you’ve read The Chimp Paradox, but [01:10:20] it’s like they’re almost like expressing their chimp.

Payman Langroudi: Their inner chimp.

Sam Cope: Exactly. [01:10:25] And then they’re going into the surgery and then they’re lovely to the dentist. And it’s like, because you’ve taken it [01:10:30] all. So I think understanding that the receptionists are going through that and then really helping [01:10:35] them as well and making sure that they’re okay, or at lunchtime just going to buy them some chocolates [01:10:40] or, um, making, you know, and checking in on them every so often as well really helps. But [01:10:45] being at Love Teeth has been amazing because the receptionists that I’ve got at Sutton are [01:10:50] so lovely that I’ve got my own treatment coordinator, so that makes everything so [01:10:55] much easier as well. So I don’t have to think because.

Payman Langroudi: The treatment coordinator will sort of sell the treatment [01:11:00] plan. Is that is that what she does?

Sam Cope: So I will say with my most of [01:11:05] my patient consults. They will come in. I will tell them about all the treatments that, um, [01:11:10] that are available for them, specific to them. And then I’ll go through the price and then [01:11:15] they’ll see the treatment coordinator who will go through their treatment plan, the finance, [01:11:20] the, um, and the things that, you know, things that push [01:11:25] it over the line. Yeah. And then also follows the patients up, and then we’ll let me know if they’ve gone [01:11:30] ahead with X, Y and Z. And then they’ll also kind of check in on the patients and make sure they’re [01:11:35] okay. They’re worth their weight in gold. Really. So good.

Payman Langroudi: And patients are coming [01:11:40] in I guess some are coming in from word of mouth now because you’ve been there a little [01:11:45] while, but otherwise coming in from marketing is that.

Sam Cope: Yeah. I mean, Canal [01:11:50] invests so much money into his marketing. Um, so a lot of patients come through [01:11:55] that just through the reputation of love teeth and then [01:12:00] also a bit through my Instagram. I made [01:12:05] my own smile book too. So I have that in reception, which shows you [01:12:10] all the kind of before and afters. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? That’s different.

Sam Cope: Yeah, it’s really good, actually. [01:12:15] It’s quite fun to make. It just makes you just make it through photo box or something. But it shows them all the before [01:12:20] and after. So when people are coming in for their hygiene appointments, they’ll look at the book and they’ll be like, oh, actually, yeah, I’d like [01:12:25] to book in for a consultation with Sam.

Payman Langroudi: In a way, it’s kind of like retro Step. Yeah. [01:12:30] It works. You know, it’s an actual book with your picture, I guess, of your face on [01:12:35] the front cover or something. Not quite.

Sam Cope: But. Yeah, I just have some [01:12:40] teeth and then I’ll have, like, information about me and then before and afters and different smile makeovers [01:12:45] that we’ve done and things. And it just works. It works really well.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, obviously, [01:12:50] you know, be nice to people, do great dentistry obviously that [01:12:55] that helps, you know, improve your reputation and all that. Are there any tactics, though, [01:13:00] that you’ve learned along the way in order to get people to [01:13:05] refer family and friends to you, or post on the internet for you [01:13:10] or whatever.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I mean, I think a good, a good thing is [01:13:15] once you finished kind of a smile makeover or something for someone and and if they’re [01:13:20] happy, um, then it’s asking them to. [01:13:25] I usually get a photo with them, and then I usually say, it would be great if you could post it on your [01:13:30] social media. Yeah. And then they can do that.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t strike me. You strike me as the [01:13:35] kind of kid who who hates saying that to someone, and yet you’re saying it and they’re doing it [01:13:40] because I see all the ones with the enlightened bags. Yeah, yeah. You’re doing it a lot. Yeah. People are [01:13:45] posting, your patients are posting on your behalf, and you’re posting on your patients behalf a [01:13:50] lot. Do you how do you get how did you get over the sort of the bump of asking that [01:13:55] question in the first place? Because a lot of people find difficulty asking that question?

Sam Cope: Well, with I mean, [01:14:00] Canal has been a great mentor. And he just said to me, look, I’m going to be marketing [01:14:05] you and I’ve got your back. But he said that if you’re doing this as well, you [01:14:10] know, it really, really helps. And the first couple of times, yeah, I’m not going to lie, it’s awkward. But [01:14:15] patients like it. You usually say to patients, you know, oh, it’d be lovely to get a picture with you [01:14:20] for social media. And they’re like, oh yeah, actually, yeah, that’s great. And I mean, I [01:14:25] kind of slacked a bit over Christmas in terms of posting. And then I had a patient [01:14:30] come in and they were saying, oh, you didn’t post my picture with me. And I was like, don’t worry, [01:14:35] I’m I’m getting around to it.

Payman Langroudi: I think he said something about he’s very good at this. Yeah. And he said [01:14:40] something about, uh, getting through to the, the patients feel [01:14:45] like if you tell them, is it okay if I put a picture of this on, on Insta, the patient feels like he [01:14:50] must have done a great job because he’s proud of his work. He wants to put it out there. Yeah, yeah. And so [01:14:55] that makes patients feel good. And then. And then exactly what you said, he said a friend of a patient said, why [01:15:00] didn’t you post mine? Weren’t you happy with the way mine came out? Yeah, yeah. And then that sort of [01:15:05] tweaked something in his head that made him then ask everyone, you know, it’s an interesting.

Sam Cope: Yeah, [01:15:10] I think it’s asking. Asking everyone and then posting their pictures and stuff. I think it’s really good [01:15:15] and it really does. Yeah. And then you find that they [01:15:20] come back and you’ve built like a really good rapport with them, and then you find that they’ll [01:15:25] say to you, oh, I’ve got a family friend or something like that, that, that [01:15:30] would really like it. And then I think at that point you should say, oh, well, great, [01:15:35] well give me the Instagram and I’ll give them a message or give me their number and I’ll [01:15:40] give them a text or something. Um, yeah, I think, I think in this [01:15:45] kind of day and age, it’s really nice to have like a personal connection with [01:15:50] your patients because they’ll respect you. But also, um, a patient [01:15:55] people don’t sue people that they like. So even if like, you know, sometimes [01:16:00] things can, can go wrong. It’s just the nature of the world, isn’t it? But [01:16:05] if you’ve got a really good relationship with your patient, then you know you can overcome it and then [01:16:10] you can you can help them. But I think just being kind of a genuine person. [01:16:15] So say like, you know, a patient comes back two months later, the, you know, it’s guaranteed for a [01:16:20] month or something, say the composite, just for example. And they say, look, I [01:16:25] was using my retainer and then I took it out and it chipped or something, you know, is there anything you can do? I [01:16:30] think, you know, just being kind to them and just saying like, yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, I’m happy to fix it [01:16:35] and say, you know what, I’ll fix it for free. But it’d be lovely if you gave us a Google review about it.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? [01:16:40]

Sam Cope: And then, you know, and then you’ve, you’ve then built rapport.

Payman Langroudi: So many moments [01:16:45] like that as a dentist, so many little moments of of highs with patients that [01:16:50] if you then do mention this sort of thing, it does make sense. But the other thing I was thinking was It’s [01:16:55] kind of much more high risk treating patients [01:17:00] from marketing than it is treating existing patients of a practice. [01:17:05] In theory, because someone comes in from a non-profit, does all sorts [01:17:10] of campaigns for for Kunal, but someone comes in from a Google campaign, let’s say, yeah, [01:17:15] you’ve never met this person. They come in and then I know how slick that practice is. [01:17:20] They kind of walk out with a treatment plan. First visit. Yeah. [01:17:25] Then you’ve got to execute that plan. Having met this person once or twice. [01:17:30] Right. And then it’s normally, you know, it could be a big plan. And so [01:17:35] that you guys have to accelerate rapport so [01:17:40] that these situations don’t go wrong because something’s going to go [01:17:45] wrong during treatment. You know, like you just said, you never we’re never 100% happy with our work. [01:17:50] There’s always gonna be something that could have been done a bit better. And, you know, someone can [01:17:55] pick up on that thing. Now, if you have if you’ve known the patient for years, this is never going to happen. But if you’ve just [01:18:00] met the person, you need to accelerate rapport. So I would in your situation, have you heard of the people who contact [01:18:05] the patient before they come in?

Sam Cope: Do I speak to them? Do you mean or. [01:18:10]

Payman Langroudi: Um, it’s an interesting thing.

Sam Cope: Yeah, yeah. I mean, maybe.

Payman Langroudi: A DM or a call [01:18:15] to.

Sam Cope: See what they like.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. As in to build rapport from the beginning. Yeah. You’re [01:18:20] coming on Tuesday. I’m just calling to see if you had any questions before you come in. It’s a really interesting [01:18:25] thing.

Sam Cope: Yeah, that is a good way of doing it, I find, because a lot of people that come in for [01:18:30] these big treatment plans, they’ll usually need some sort of early work. [01:18:35] Early work done before.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s when you build it.

Sam Cope: And also through the whitening as well.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [01:18:40]

Sam Cope: I find that say if somebody wants composite veneers they’ve already got straight teeth or something. [01:18:45] I get them in. I do do the whitening and then I do the trial smile usually [01:18:50] before. And that’s for composite or. Porcelain? Yeah. Um, and then [01:18:55] it’s at that stage as well that you can gauge kind of what patient they are and whether you can meet their [01:19:00] expectations. And sometimes it’s it’s always a hard conversation to have. But I’ve had it a [01:19:05] couple of times where I’ve said, look, I mean, this is the kind of work that I do, you know, [01:19:10] and I’ll show them pictures before and afters, and then I’ll show them kind of what they want. And if they [01:19:15] sound like their goals are just or their expectations are far [01:19:20] too high, you know, I’ll kind of bring them back down to earth. But if they’re not kind of playing ball, [01:19:25] your.

Payman Langroudi: Spidey sense says no.

Sam Cope: Yeah. Then I’ll say to them, look, I just don’t. I’ll [01:19:30] just say to them, look, I’m a bit worried that I’m not going to be able to meet your expectations, [01:19:35] and maybe it’s best seeking another dentist that perhaps can. [01:19:40] And I think a lot of patients do actually respect that. I mean, and also I’d much rather [01:19:45] do that than have the problems of then that can come in the future. [01:19:50]

Payman Langroudi: Talking of problems, let’s get let’s get to the darker part of [01:19:55] the pod. We like to talk about clinical errors. I [01:20:00] don’t want to just limit it to clinical errors. I kind of like these sort of errors as well. Yeah. Like expectation [01:20:05] errors management errors. Mhm. But so that [01:20:10] you know we can all learn from each others. What comes to mind when I say clinical [01:20:15] errors.

Sam Cope: So when I finished, when I finished monarchs courses [01:20:20] and was finished as an apprentice and things you do have a lot of confidence and obviously [01:20:25] you’re highly skilled like you know how to use.

Payman Langroudi: Companies and you’ve got the same pay check [01:20:30] whatever you did. Is that what The Apprentice means?

Sam Cope: Yeah, you’re you’re you’re salaried and [01:20:35] the job role is really to shadow monarch as he’s doing his dentistry. [01:20:40] You’ll be working in his clinic and doing some of the, um, some of the work there, too. [01:20:45] And then you’ll also be Helping other [01:20:50] students on all of the courses, which run like nearly five days a week. So [01:20:55] it’s it’s intense. It’s a great I mean, it’s an unbelievable opportunity. But [01:21:00] once I’d finished. Once I’d finished that, I felt like my skills had hugely [01:21:05] accelerated, just in terms of like placement of composite, how it works, and [01:21:10] also when you’re teaching on a totally composite course, which you’ll know from the mini Smile makeover [01:21:15] course, um, you know, you’d finish a day and you fixed [01:21:20] like 50 or 60 mistakes, so it’s almost like you’ve done 50 or 60 cases.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. [01:21:25]

Sam Cope: Yeah. So and you’re doing that nearly every day. So you’re just constantly fixing things for [01:21:30] people. And then when, when these things happen in clinic then you’re like, oh okay, I’ll fix it [01:21:35] this way. So you do come out very confident. Yeah. What you don’t get taught on a lot of courses [01:21:40] is when somebody already has composite veneers, and then you’re kind of, um, [01:21:45] treating them So my kind of clinical, [01:21:50] um, the time that I wouldn’t really call it a failure, [01:21:55] but it’s more where the, the moment where I’ve changed my practice the [01:22:00] most was when I had a patient. They came in with composite veneers [01:22:05] already. They were looking they think they’d been done a couple of years before, but they were looking pretty. [01:22:10] Um.

Payman Langroudi: It’s unforgiving. It’s an unforgiving material.

Sam Cope: It is the most [01:22:15] unforgiving material. You leave one air void or something, one tiny air void, and you’ll [01:22:20] see it a year later. Stained to hell. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Brown.

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Sam Cope: Yeah. [01:22:25] It looks horrible. Um, so, anyway, wanted them refreshed. So [01:22:30] the, um, the process that I would do at the time is take took [01:22:35] off the composite, placed the composite back on, and then they have a week in the composite to kind [01:22:40] of like figure out whether they liked it, whether they didn’t like it. And after a week [01:22:45] really happy. Like felt great. Added a little bit of composite to [01:22:50] a couple of areas, polished, did the final polish and then had [01:22:55] a six month follow up. Was really happy. Left a really good google review. Didn’t hear anything then for [01:23:00] about another six months or something. And then after that six months, [01:23:05] um, I’d heard and I was leaving the practice as well. [01:23:10] I’d heard that they’d gone to a few other dentists, [01:23:15] and they’d always wanted their teeth longer, and I had made them [01:23:20] long enough or something. And I was thinking to myself, well, I’ve done everything as I was supposed to do. [01:23:25] They’ve had the they’ve almost had their kind of trial smile where they’ve seen what the composite [01:23:30] is going to look like and things. So you know what can possibly be wrong anyway, there wasn’t really [01:23:35] too much reasoning with the patient, so I ended up giving them the money back [01:23:40] for the 40th that they wanted longer.

Sam Cope: So then I kind of reflected on the [01:23:45] whole situation and thought, how can I prevent that from happening again? And [01:23:50] the way that I prevent it now is all of my composite veneers [01:23:55] that I do. Any big cases of composite veneers, say four, six, eight. I do, [01:24:00] um, I injection mould, and the reason why I do it that way is because I can. [01:24:05] I know that I can do it predictably, and it means that the patient gets a trial [01:24:10] smile. They can see exactly what it’s going to look like. They take photos. You can even have [01:24:15] them in the trial. Smile for a bit for a week or something so they can see what it’s like. And then once they’ve [01:24:20] approved it, then we’ll place the composite. Then we’ll do a final review. So it adds almost an extra layer. [01:24:25] And it means then that you get the adequate thickness, some [01:24:30] improved strength compared to kind of placing the composite on using wetting resin. You’ve just [01:24:35] got everything on in one go. And then yeah, I found my [01:24:40] um, my cases have of massively improved. And I found that [01:24:45] every you know, most people are really happy with what they’ve got and say before [01:24:50] with my edge bonding, I’ll usually do that freehand, but I will always do a mock up [01:24:55] to show them what it’ll look like before even even edge bonding, and then to see [01:25:00] whether they’re happy with it.

Sam Cope: And then if they are happy, then great. I know I can do probably a lot better [01:25:05] than my little quick mock up. Yeah, but if they’re not happy, then I’ll say, look, I don’t know whether I [01:25:10] can meet your expectations, which is fair, I think. And then, [01:25:15] um, and then. Yeah. And then they can either, you know, go somewhere else or or not [01:25:20] go ahead if they don’t want to. And with the trial smile, I usually charge, say 499 [01:25:25] for the trial smile. And I’ll say to them, look, if you really don’t like it, you know, you’ve not invested [01:25:30] a huge amount of money and this isn’t going to go anywhere. Um, but then if you, [01:25:35] if you do like it, then yeah, then we can go ahead with the, with the composite and kind of go from there. [01:25:40] And I found that just works so much better.

Payman Langroudi: And the the basics of the injection moulding [01:25:45] technique that you use.

Sam Cope: So I use two stents and [01:25:50] then we mock up every other tooth and then every tooth. [01:25:55] And then we will place PTFE tape over [01:26:00] each bond. Place the composite in um [01:26:05] into each into each one, kind of do a bit of a clean up and [01:26:10] then we’ll place the next one in and then um, and then just do a bit of a clean up. And [01:26:15] I’ve just found the cleanup from that is really much better. Much better.

Payman Langroudi: So, [01:26:20] you know, are you not actually you’re compression moulding rather than impression injection moulding. [01:26:25]

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Where you place the composite around where it should be. And then put the.

Sam Cope: Uh, [01:26:30] put the missile in over the top and then there’ll be a hole in the incisal and then just inject [01:26:35] it. But I use heated composites. So I used to use Venus. Now I use Empress. Yeah, Yeah. So [01:26:40] I find that I find that works so much better. And I think it’s really important [01:26:45] to, before you do any injection moulding to be able to do freehand [01:26:50] first because, you know, if mistakes. Mistakes can happen voids. [01:26:55]

Payman Langroudi: You need to know how to do both.

Sam Cope: You need to know how to do both.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. There are times. There are times where freehand is important [01:27:00] to do right. The situations, many situations that you’ll have to do it in freehand. And there’s many [01:27:05] situations that would be good if it was predictability was completely there. And you can, you know, [01:27:10] it’s like a little magic trick, isn’t it? I could show you, show you before, before you actually do it, what it’s going to look like, [01:27:15] which is beautiful.

Sam Cope: It’s so important to do as many kind of composite courses as you [01:27:20] can.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: Monarchs totally. Composite course is great, but you’ll learn so much more [01:27:25] from doing different. Like Depeche Palmer’s course mini Smile makeover, you learn so many other [01:27:30] different skills and you’ll think, actually, I can do this differently and this is faster, or this works [01:27:35] better for me.

Payman Langroudi: It’s my pet hate. Yeah, we get a call, people say, hey, sell it to me on the phone, [01:27:40] you know? And you’re like, what do you mean? Well, I’m picking between this one and that one. Which [01:27:45] 1 a.m. I going to go to? And and you’re, you know, we I, we talk about [01:27:50] it and we, we give them we give them what they want. But in in your head, you’re thinking if [01:27:55] you were at all serious, you’d be doing all of them.

Sam Cope: Yeah, you should be doing all of them. Really.

Payman Langroudi: You know. [01:28:00]

Sam Cope: Because this is what you want to do.

Payman Langroudi: Let alone this one or that one. There’s about seven of them. You do them all. [01:28:05] You know, if you want, if you want to be that person, you want to learn something really well. And then let’s face [01:28:10] it, like we always say on MSM, it’s the beginning. It’s not the end, right? It’s the practising [01:28:15] is way more important than going on any courses.

Sam Cope: And it’s like, you know, when [01:28:20] between patients, I would usually be messing around with composite and like placing like composite [01:28:25] veneers over stuff. Yeah. Because it is true. Like the only way you get to the top [01:28:30] or to be the best dentist that you can be, is just through practice [01:28:35] and hard work.

Payman Langroudi: It was funny. The pitch was was saying, yeah, when I do an [01:28:40] examination and, you know, there’s really nothing that needs doing. A lot of times my eyes are just going over [01:28:45] the teeth and I’m just looking at tooth morphology.

Sam Cope: Yeah, yeah, [01:28:50] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it was, it was so funny because I was staring at someone else, looking [01:28:55] at the patient, like, just in horror at this idea that that’s what he does. [01:29:00]

Sam Cope: Yeah. God, it’s so important. It’s so important just to understand, like, the line angles [01:29:05] and things.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And, you know, a lot of courses, they start with drawing the teeth. And there’s good reason [01:29:10] for that. There is good reason for that. If you can draw it first. Yeah.

Sam Cope: Then you’re making [01:29:15] it out of Play-Doh or something like that as well as a good one. Um, have.

Payman Langroudi: You have you moved [01:29:20] on to, you know, um, porcelain [01:29:25] work, big cases with porcelain. Are you very much [01:29:30] in the minimally invasive area?

Sam Cope: Yeah, I do porcelain cases just because composite [01:29:35] doesn’t work, which is.

Payman Langroudi: Known more for composite, is that is that the way it is? You’re more known [01:29:40] for composite?

Sam Cope: Yeah, I do more I do a lot more composite cases for sure. [01:29:45] But there are I mean I’ve got like 3 or 4 porcelain cases, big [01:29:50] porcelain cases on the go at the moment. And that’s mainly just because you [01:29:55] after a while of doing composite and you’re seeing your cases coming back, you see the people that [01:30:00] are good composite cases and you see the people that are not good composite cases. [01:30:05] So a good determinant I think is firstly like wear on the teeth is important. [01:30:10] And another, another good determinant is when they come in for that first [01:30:15] kind of consult, look at the staining on their natural teeth. Because when they have composite that’s going [01:30:20] to be ten times worse.

Payman Langroudi: So true.

Sam Cope: So if you you know, smoking is a big [01:30:25] one. If they’re smoking and they’ve I did a really lovely composite case. And [01:30:30] she came back maybe about three weeks later and the staining [01:30:35] was just ridiculous. Mainly just over the front 40th, which you can imagine [01:30:40] is going to be the worst with smoking.

Payman Langroudi: And definitely staining is the biggest issue with composite, right? That [01:30:45] you know, okay, you talk about chipping. Yeah, true. But staining tends to be the first [01:30:50] failure.

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um and so that’s why, you know it gets gets to me man. People [01:30:55] people don’t charge enough for composite veneers. You know it’s it’s hard work. It’s really hard getting [01:31:00] it right.

Sam Cope: And I say to P I say to patients, look the composites are like, you know, if you [01:31:05] buy a pair of shoes, you can wreck them around and have them last hardly [01:31:10] any time. But if you’re kind of polishing them every month and you’re careful with how you use them, you can make [01:31:15] them last years. So with your composite veneers, you know, obviously brush floss is normal. [01:31:20] But come back to see us for, you know, your composite polishing for [01:31:25] hygiene appointments so that we can see, you know, you might be able to see a little void or something [01:31:30] after, you know, six months. Once it’s stained a bit and you can just quickly fill that. And [01:31:35] they last so much longer if they’re if they’re regularly maintained.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, I would say bleach your composites. [01:31:40]

Sam Cope: Bleach composites. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah that is a great way to do it. And also you because [01:31:45] the biggest thing is getting stains kind of in between. And when you when you do bleach them it just [01:31:50] gets eliminates all of the stains. It’s so good.

Payman Langroudi: I’d say one day a month [01:31:55] for all patients after bonding. Yeah, definitely. Or longer? [01:32:00] Two days a month if you want to be really super duper. But yeah, but just to number one, what [01:32:05] you said to to clean them up if they haven’t been done before or [01:32:10] number two, prevent the stain from coming in the first place.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I do recommend that. And I have kind of [01:32:15] a composite aftercare form that I give all the patients. So I’m happy for this to be like a link [01:32:20] or something on the podcast if people want it. But I think it’s it’s definitely a really good thing. [01:32:25] And I also, um, I also after each consultation, I’ll write a [01:32:30] kind of summary of everything that we’ve talked about. And then at the end of, um, the big [01:32:35] treatment plans, I almost summarise it and then give them all the aftercare forms, and then [01:32:40] they usually do come back for those regular check-ups, but also kind of reinforcing it into saying that, [01:32:45] you know, composites are not going to last forever. I usually say it’s almost impossible to how long [01:32:50] it can last. I’ve seen them last hardly any time because of staining, and [01:32:55] I’ve seen them last like years and years, and they look almost like [01:33:00] the first day I placed them using exactly the same composite, exactly the same techniques, but it’s just about how [01:33:05] the person looks after them in their mouth.

Payman Langroudi: I think the oldest picture I’ve seen of Depeche is 12 years, [01:33:10] um, unpolished, unreported, his, you know, with microfilm. The whole [01:33:15] thing is the idea of not having to but but also for the teaching purposes. He wants to see what happens. [01:33:20]

Sam Cope: Um, yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then, buddy, he’s got [01:33:25] these 20 year composites. But, um, I feel like that was a long time ago that [01:33:30] I saw that picture.

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Amazing, man. I [01:33:35] mean, I’m learning a lot from you. I would like to get one more, like, [01:33:40] nugget of information around successfully carrying off this [01:33:45] kind of practice that you’re carrying off now. I mean, okay, you said you said you [01:33:50] said what you said. Um, but, you know, I talk to a lot of young [01:33:55] dentists, right? And a lot of them want to be you. A lot of them want to get to be you. [01:34:00] The minimally invasive, you know, AB, ABC or whatever you guys call it ABC, the minimally [01:34:05] invasive AB type dentist. And my advice often [01:34:10] is you can be that guy. You can be so many other types. [01:34:15] Yeah. Why do you want to be that guy? Right. And it is pleasurable. You know, I find wants [01:34:20] more pleasurable than needs in a way. There’s an honesty to it [01:34:25] that I like. Um, there’s there’s a sort of, uh, people want to [01:34:30] be there rather than need to be there. There’s a there’s a joy to it. Mhm. Um, [01:34:35] as well. But advice wise, someone wants to be you because a lot [01:34:40] of the youngsters want to be you. Should they jump in and do it. Should [01:34:45] they look at other things. And if they want to do it what should they do first?

Sam Cope: Yeah, I think [01:34:50] it’s very glamorous in terms of you’re almost like. [01:34:55] It seems to be what everybody wants to do at the moment that [01:35:00] a line bleach composite. But you are it is it is difficult because [01:35:05] even though you know the NHS work and things that you do is I found really difficult. [01:35:10] And that’s why I decided to kind of go into this route.

Payman Langroudi: You say it’s glamorous, right? The glamorous [01:35:15] side of it is a pain in the arse itself.

Sam Cope: It is a pain.

Payman Langroudi: Because it’s glamorous. Because it’s on Instagram. [01:35:20]

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And that means you have to do Instagram, which you could be spending your time doing [01:35:25] other things, learning other things for the sake of the argument. Right?

Sam Cope: Yeah. And dealing with patients [01:35:30] as well is hard.

Payman Langroudi: More difficult patients. Right.

Sam Cope: More difficult. Yeah. The [01:35:35] patients are more difficult. And also it’s the, um, patients expectations especially [01:35:40] I found in treatment.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: They get yeah, definitely. They definitely do change [01:35:45] my treatment. But also, um, I found in London, patient expectations are [01:35:50] sky high. And it’s, you know, being able to deliver that kind of success. [01:35:55] And you see people will look at Instagram and say, oh, I want my teeth to look like this, [01:36:00] which is a dentist, maybe up north or something. But you’ve got to think that [01:36:05] all of the all of these like successful cases that you see where you’ve got these immaculate [01:36:10] composites, they’ve been followed previously by failures and things. So I think, [01:36:15] I think the most important thing, if you want to get to kind of this position, is just [01:36:20] to not be fazed by, don’t let your failures put you down. [01:36:25] But learn from them and yeah, and grow that way and practice [01:36:30] as much as you possibly can. Um, so any time a patient doesn’t turn up, [01:36:35] you should be looking at, you know, um, placing some composite veneers on some [01:36:40] plastic teeth or just getting the handling of the composite so that when you’re then doing a big case, then you can [01:36:45] do it. Um, but repetition and being okay with failure is [01:36:50] like, is really important because you’ll learn from it. And the great thing about composite is it is it is, [01:36:55] uh, it’s an unforgiving material in terms of the staining, etc., but it’s also a forgiving material [01:37:00] in the fact that you haven’t damaged any of the teeth.

Payman Langroudi: Very versatile. Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Sam Cope: It’s, [01:37:05] you know, you can. And also it’s not like porcelain veneers when once they’re placed it’s it’s harder [01:37:10] to kind of change them. You can change the composite or replace them or refresh them and [01:37:15] things too.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s an interesting thing. Imagine this young dentist, right. Could be you [01:37:20] or could be an endodontist. Yeah, totally different in many ways, [01:37:25] right? Number one, Endodontist doesn’t have to sell anything to anyone. Yeah, yeah. [01:37:30] That’s true. And pressure of sales is hard. It’s a hard thing. It’s hard to enlighten. I [01:37:35] see it in my sales team, you know. It’s tiring. Tiring?

Sam Cope: Oh, yeah?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Pressure of sales. [01:37:40] You haven’t got that as an endodontist. You haven’t got any exacting standards. As long as [01:37:45] it doesn’t hurt. Yeah, yeah. As an endodontist. But it’s not thought of [01:37:50] as a glamorous. By the way. Loads of money. You can make loads of money as an endodontist. [01:37:55]

Sam Cope: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. It’s one of the, one of the best ways of making a lot of money. Um, [01:38:00] in a kind of a predictable way. Um, totally opposites, [01:38:05] right? All things are opposites in it. But both great ways of going. [01:38:10] But one seems glamorous what you’re doing. And if you tell [01:38:15] most young dentists endo because most of them haven’t done many. They go, oh no, no, I don’t want [01:38:20] to do the.

Sam Cope: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting, isn’t it?

Sam Cope: Yeah. You should try it. You really. I mean, [01:38:25] in the different practices that you’re at, you’ll have sometimes that the practice that you’re [01:38:30] in leads you to become the dentist that you become, because you’ll find that you’ll either draw [01:38:35] inspiration from the people that are there, or you’ll see that there’s a definite gap in the market for something. [01:38:40] So then you upskill in that area, and then you take all the referrals from the other dentists. So. So [01:38:45] yeah. So I think if anybody wants to become this kind of dentist, [01:38:50] just takes takes a lot of hard work and just try and do as many courses that you can and and [01:38:55] just practice.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what’s your favourite book? Have you, have you bought a book ever on this subject? [01:39:00]

Sam Cope: Um, the, the book that I [01:39:05] refer to a lot is Sandra Ty’s book [01:39:10] for orthodontics. That’s really good for Invisalign and learning [01:39:15] about buttons and things, but I think.

Payman Langroudi: The name.

Sam Cope: Uh, Sandra. Ty.

Payman Langroudi: Thats [01:39:20] the author.

Sam Cope: Yeah, thats the author. And I can’t remember the exact title, but.

Payman Langroudi: How [01:39:25] do you spell Ty?

Sam Cope: Ty? Ty. Oh, yeah. So thats a really. Thats a really good book [01:39:30] for Invisalign. But then, um, a lot. Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: Go go.

Sam Cope: Go. Uh, [01:39:35] but then. Yeah, a lot of, a lot of my experiences come from doing the postgraduate [01:39:40] diploma. And then its really important that once you know, you [01:39:45] have to understand occlusion, you have to understand, [01:39:50] you know, um, the makeup of a smile [01:39:55] before you can then kind of go on and just place composites of course. [01:40:00]

Payman Langroudi: What’s your course? A course you’re desperate to go on.

Sam Cope: Um, [01:40:05] I’m probably I think the next courses that I’m going to [01:40:10] go on are probably more injection moulding courses, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Um huh. Just [01:40:15] just explore that area more.

Sam Cope: Explore it a little bit more. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ever thought of choice or spear [01:40:20] that sort of thing? That that angle?

Sam Cope: Um, a little bit, I think. [01:40:25] I think to like more courses that I’d want to do is communication courses.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? [01:40:30]

Sam Cope: They’re so important. Yeah. Um, tell me a bit more about the Khoisan spear.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. The spear. [01:40:35] You know, like, full on occlusion, full mouth rehab type courses. Um, [01:40:40] they’re sort of thought of as the best ones and expensive in America. Mhm. Continuum [01:40:45] of of of the. It’s not only that I’ve really shortened it but but [01:40:50] that’s you know, the kind of dentist you end up becoming. You look at where cases and, and and take care of, you [01:40:55] know, full mouth rehabs on them without worrying too much, I guess.

Sam Cope: Yeah. I mean, [01:41:00] I’ve done a few full mouth rehabs with composite and, um, [01:41:05] some with porcelain and then darling as well. But I think if I think if you have [01:41:10] kind of the core principles in mind, then and also again, learning from [01:41:15] your failures, you’ll be able to. Yeah, you’ll be able to do it. I’ve. I [01:41:20] do have another good, um, book. I think it’s Devang Patel [01:41:25] on full mouth rehabilitation. That’s a really good one. Um, and he goes through how he kind [01:41:30] of builds up composites. I like him and goes from kind of single tooth composites, right? The way to full [01:41:35] mouth rehabs. That’s a really good book.

Payman Langroudi: Have you been on his course?

Sam Cope: I haven’t actually, yeah, I would like [01:41:40] to go on it though.

Payman Langroudi: I like him. Lovely guy. It’s been a massive pleasure to have you, man. Um, [01:41:45] we’re going to end on the usual questions. Fantasy [01:41:50] dinner party.

Sam Cope: Okay. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests, dead or [01:41:55] alive.

Sam Cope: So, um, so [01:42:00] I, I’m also a massive history buff. Like, I love history, so, [01:42:05] um, I think, like, the first person I’d probably invite is probably, [01:42:10] uh, Augustus Caesar. Augustus. I think that’d be really cool.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [01:42:15]

Sam Cope: I think the reason is just because, um, this is going to like, [01:42:20] show me as, like a real history guy. But I do love like I love, like learning about the Roman [01:42:25] Empire, but also him as a person in terms of [01:42:30] managing the struggles that he went through, but also being the most powerful person in [01:42:35] the world. And how to manage that would be quite cool. Yeah. And then the other [01:42:40] two people. So my, uh, fiance, her dad, sadly [01:42:45] passed away when he was three, when she was three years old. So I’ve never met [01:42:50] him before. But the other two people I’d like to invite is is him [01:42:55] and then my fiance as well, because I think that would be really nice for them to be together, [01:43:00] and also for me to get to know him as well.

Payman Langroudi: That’s such a lovely thing. I normally [01:43:05] don’t allow that, that sort of response, but that’s such a lovely thing. That’s such a lovely thing [01:43:10] that you just said there. Beautiful, Beautiful. Final question. [01:43:15] It’s a bit weird. Young person like you. Deathbed.

Sam Cope: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Three pieces [01:43:20] of advice for your loved ones on your deathbed.

Sam Cope: I [01:43:25] think, I think. I think it’s almost a reflection of what we’ve talked about on [01:43:30] the podcast, which is knowing knowing when enough [01:43:35] is enough and being able and also being able to really, [01:43:40] you know, the meaning of life almost comes from being in [01:43:45] your tribe and having really good personal family friend [01:43:50] relationships. That’s so important because I’ve seen, like with my family, you [01:43:55] know, people not get on together and then people get lonely and then going into [01:44:00] depression and things like that. So it’s it’s so important. Like keeping your family and friends [01:44:05] relationships is is crucial. Um, and [01:44:10] then I think, you know, getting getting a passion and a hobby is [01:44:15] so important to, um, I think my, my hobby, because [01:44:20] I’m only doing it three days a week now. My hobby is almost become dentistry. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Mine is podcasting. [01:44:25]

Sam Cope: But, yeah, it’s, um, I think getting something that you really, [01:44:30] really enjoy. So say, like, um, something, you know, obviously, I enjoy [01:44:35] doing the dentistry and enjoying your job is really important. And like, with the physio, like, [01:44:40] I saw that I couldn’t really envision myself being a physio into my [01:44:45] like, 50s and 60s. So not being afraid to sometimes take a step back and think, [01:44:50] actually, is this what I want to do? And even though it’s a drastic change, which is like a big [01:44:55] financial risk and loss just to do it. Um, and then the other [01:45:00] thing is to maintain a balanced life, which is to ensure [01:45:05] you’re getting the right nutrition, sleep, exercise and stress management to be able to [01:45:10] kind of live and fulfil a good life. I’d say quite crucial. [01:45:15]

Payman Langroudi: Sure.

Sam Cope: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Really enjoyed that man.

Sam Cope: Yeah. [01:45:20]

Payman Langroudi: No worries. Really enjoyed that. Thank you so much for coming all the way.

Sam Cope: Oh it’s been a pleasure. It’s been really fun.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you.

[VOICE]: This [01:45:25] is Dental Leaders the podcast where you [01:45:30] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:45:35] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [01:45:40]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened [01:45:45] to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through [01:45:50] and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some [01:45:55] value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And [01:46:00] if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, [01:46:05] so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system. Join [00:00:05] us for online training, where I’ll take you through everything you need to know about how [00:00:10] to assess a case quickly, how to use the system, how to talk to patients. Because when you [00:00:15] know you can deliver brilliant results, it’s so much easier to talk about it. To book your course, which takes [00:00:20] only an hour. It’s completely free. Visit enlighten online training.com. [00:00:25] Now let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The podcast [00:00:35] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:40] hosts Payman Langroudi [00:00:45] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Davida [00:00:50] on to the podcast. Rov is a general dentist with a special interest [00:00:55] in periodontics, whose practice is now completely limited to periodontics [00:01:00] and some medico legal expert witness work. It’s a pleasure to have you. [00:01:05]

Sarovi Davda: Thank you for having me.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your name?

Sarovi Davda: Come from where it comes from. Sarovar, which [00:01:10] is lake in Sanskrit. Okay, so yeah, I’m Gujarati in origin. You [00:01:15] are? Yes, a British born. But my parents emigrated from East Africa, my grandparents [00:01:20] from India. So one of those generations chucked out by Idi Amin, the.

Payman Langroudi: Master race, those, [00:01:25] those those guys.

Sarovi Davda: The master. I love that.

Payman Langroudi: Those guys are great. I mean, I’ve had the number of people I’ve had here [00:01:30] whose parents have come from East Africa, and I knew friends in school. They have a can [00:01:35] do attitude. Those African Indians, while.

Sarovi Davda: They do, I don’t know if it’s gone down to our generation. It’s [00:01:40] like kind of we get a bit of the kushti, you know, like everything’s great from our parents. So we take a [00:01:45] seat back. Yeah, maybe. Certainly. I’m not as ambitious as my dad was.

Payman Langroudi: So, so, so tell [00:01:50] me about your childhood. Where were you growing up?

Sarovi Davda: So I was, um, born in [00:01:55] Kingston, like Kingston Hospital and, Huh?

Payman Langroudi: Jamaica. Sorry. [00:02:00]

Sarovi Davda: Very British by the terms. And like, my mum would take me to Richmond Park to see the [00:02:05] dears when I was little. And then actually on advice of relatives that said, basically there are no brown [00:02:10] Gujaratis where you live. You want to bring up your children with the community around you. We [00:02:15] moved to north west London, so I grew up in Northwood.

Payman Langroudi: And what kind of kid were you? Were you very [00:02:20] studious, very compliant, or were you rebel?

Sarovi Davda: No. Very compliant. So, [00:02:25] um, when I was very little primary school, my, my parents were [00:02:30] really worried about my academic or lack of achievement. And my argument would always be, no, [00:02:35] I’m not last in the class because you’re last in class. I’m last but one. Mum and [00:02:40] I had atrocious spelling. I had atrocious like grammar, probably, well, pretty sure, undiagnosed [00:02:45] dyslexia. And I was always dancing and singing. Probably a [00:02:50] little bit of ADHD probably as well. Yeah, undiagnosed. I was always dancing and singing around the house. And [00:02:55] then one summer my mum worked with me over English. I was very creative [00:03:00] and I managed imaginative, and I got that one year, 83% of my English [00:03:05] exam. And that was what really sparked me into kind of essentially people pleasing through academic [00:03:10] achievement. I loved it, and then I became a proper grafter. And I just, [00:03:15] you know, I worked, I worked my ass off.

Payman Langroudi: But then how did dentistry come on [00:03:20] the sort of agenda?

Sarovi Davda: So I really loved art. I loved [00:03:25] English and communicating with people. I wanted to help people. I decided [00:03:30] as a true co-dependent. And I really love biology. So I [00:03:35] took it to my dad and he was like, make a pros and cons list and bring it to me and [00:03:40] did that. And then he said to me, and it was a really life changing kind of conversation. [00:03:45] He goes, what kind of life do you want? So I said, well, I want the kind of [00:03:50] life we have, like lovely holidays. I want to be at home for my children. So I want to be able [00:03:55] to work part time. I want good work. Hours. And I was deciding between medicine and dentistry and [00:04:00] it was really what fit the bill was the life it offered, as well as [00:04:05] the fact that I wanted to use my hands. I loved the art and creative side, so I had to become a surgeon [00:04:10] and, you know, train even further in medicine. So dentistry was the one for me in that way. [00:04:15]

Payman Langroudi: And what did your dad do?

Sarovi Davda: He was an accountant.

Payman Langroudi: But look, you were interested in English. [00:04:20] You were interested in making things with your hands. Yeah. So I’m interested [00:04:25] in this notion of sort of generational evolution. And I get it. You know, with your [00:04:30] dad running away from Idi Amin, was it Idi Amin?

Sarovi Davda: It was my mum, Idi Amin, but my dad was in Tanzania. [00:04:35] Tanzania. And. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So. But with your parents becoming this, that first generation to [00:04:40] leave Africa, I can understand it’s similar with my parents. You know, we had a revolution in Iran, [00:04:45] you know as well. So similarly with my parents, they said they [00:04:50] their advice was to opt for something safe like medicine, dentistry. My brother became a doctor. [00:04:55] I became a dentist here. But the question of your children. Hmm. [00:05:00] And I’m strangely. I’m. I’m. I’m advising my daughter to be a dentist. [00:05:05] Yeah, I am. Because such a great job for a woman. Because you can stop, start, [00:05:10] do four days, do one day. You know, that’s so amazing. If you want to have kids. But [00:05:15] it would be nice, wouldn’t it? If my advice to my kids and your advice to your kids [00:05:20] was be really good at the arts, become [00:05:25] a screenwriter. Like something you could have been, right? I can see, like, you know, you were good at English. [00:05:30] You’re good at talking. You could have gone into that world, but your parents didn’t. I get it, but what’s your [00:05:35] advice to your children?

Sarovi Davda: So my parents and my advice to my children is actually that [00:05:40] in the sense that, okay, so I genuinely believe that I, like the world [00:05:45] today is different to how certainly my I grew up and also what my parents went through. [00:05:50] I do not blame them the slightest for them prioritising for me my financial security [00:05:55] and stability over like go for what you love. But I genuinely believe, [00:06:00] and I could be completely wrong, that I think in this world, if you have the sort of the right [00:06:05] type of work ethic, if you find joy and passion in [00:06:10] what you genuinely love doing, you can make a living from it. But I [00:06:15] think it has to be with your reality that some professions are far harder to isn’t. [00:06:20] Dentistry is a guarantee in some ways. There’s only a certain threshold below you [00:06:25] know which you’ll fall or go. You have a stable ground there. You have a safety net. [00:06:30] Many professions don’t have that safety net. Yeah. So I think that’s something like, especially [00:06:35] as a single woman, I am so damn grateful that I have dentistry. The [00:06:40] financial renumeration I get from it. Also, I happen to absolutely love it. I do. Like, [00:06:45] yes, I could have gone into, I say if I wasn’t a dentist, I’d either be an be an interior designer or [00:06:50] a florist, you know? But I really do love what I do. I wouldn’t change it. So I’ve been lucky. [00:06:55] But I do think, like I tell my children, um, my my daughter wants to be a [00:07:00] dance. She wants to be a dancer. Um, but then there’s the thing is, there are different scopes [00:07:05] within that. So she doesn’t have to be a dancer in the West End. I mean, that has [00:07:10] a finite time. She could open up a dance company. She could like. There. There are. I [00:07:15] think it depends upon your ambition, your mindset and your financial goals. There are places [00:07:20] where all careers can take you. So I do feel like if I can.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, it’s [00:07:25] easy to say now they’re young enough. How old are they again? Tell me.

Sarovi Davda: Nine and 11. [00:07:30]

Payman Langroudi: Nine, 11. It’s nice to talk about these things when they’re 911. But then it comes [00:07:35] to, you know, what subjects to get to do an A level. Mhm. Um, [00:07:40] and if she said look I want to do drama art and dance. Yeah. And [00:07:45] a bit of you might come out at that point and say, what about biology, chemistry and maths? [00:07:50]

Sarovi Davda: Like a bit of me, I’ll be screaming inside. Like, I mean, I’m really fighting my introjected beliefs [00:07:55] here. Like when I say I give this advice, it’s not without claws. It’s not without me. Like looking [00:08:00] at myself and thinking, my goodness, something’s really coming up within you. Yeah, but I [00:08:05] think that’s my that’s where my work is, like, as in, so, you know, there’s this beautiful poem [00:08:10] that I recite most mornings by Kahlil Gibran, which is about children, and [00:08:15] it says, you know, my children are not my children. They’re the sons and daughters of life’s longing for itself. [00:08:20] They come through me, but they’re not from me. And though they are with me, though they belong not to me. [00:08:25] A couple of more verses, but it’s like, I don’t I wouldn’t say I, [00:08:30] I live in that attitude, but it’s an aspiration. And so if I can align my actions [00:08:35] with that aspiration, I just hope I’m, you know, doing good. [00:08:40]

Payman Langroudi: While we’re.

Sarovi Davda: On it.

Payman Langroudi: That’s it. While we’re on it, what kind of a mom are you? Are you, like, good cop [00:08:45] or bad cop, are you? Because I’ve noticed.

Sarovi Davda: That. People pleaser. Of course I’m a good cop. [00:08:50]

Payman Langroudi: But then. But then. Do you need a bad cop as well? Like, do [00:08:55] you recognise that with your parents? Was one of them good cop? One the bad cop? Was it two bad cops? [00:09:00] My Africa?

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. In some. Okay. You know, my mom was definitely this, [00:09:05] like, the very typical soft, um, nurturing caregiver. [00:09:10] And my dad was more the disciplinarian, if there was one, for sure. They took those typical roles. [00:09:15]

Payman Langroudi: Um, well, you say typical. My mom was like the washy.

Sarovi Davda: Okay. [00:09:20]

Payman Langroudi: And my dad was my buddy, you know? And in my house, I’m the good cop and my wife [00:09:25] is the bad cop.

Sarovi Davda: No way. That’s so interesting, because that’s obviously my upbringing. That’s clouding my. This [00:09:30] is the norm. Okay? This is my norm then.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly, exactly.

Sarovi Davda: Thank you for that. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So. So [00:09:35] you are good cop.

Sarovi Davda: I’m. I’m good cop. But. Okay, so I loved taking [00:09:40] the good cop and left, leaving my ex-husband to be the bad cop role. Because that’s [00:09:45] where I was super comfy, because, hey, I’m the one that can look like the good cop. But I but [00:09:50] what’s helped me is in with the divorce is that I have to be I there’s [00:09:55] good cop with boundaries because boundaries. I think I’ve realised a part of being a good [00:10:00] cop as well. So it’s like healthy boundaries with it hopefully put [00:10:05] into in from a sense of love, from a place of love, with love, but not without [00:10:10] discipline, because then that’s just chaos, frankly. So yeah, I would say I’m I’m. [00:10:15]

Payman Langroudi: Are you happy to talk about divorce?

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. So it affects 40% [00:10:20] of us. So. Hey, I’m not alone.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. No. Of course. So did you then change when? When [00:10:25] when the separation happened? When? When your ex went away from the house. [00:10:30] Did you then have to compensate and become a bit of a worse cop?

Sarovi Davda: I [00:10:35] think I had to learn for both myself. But as a mother, for my children. [00:10:40] Yeah. What boundaries were. I was pretty in some ways boundaryless [00:10:45] in many, many ways. And so I had to take a really good, long, hard look at myself and [00:10:50] figure out what I contributed to the breakdown of my marriage. And I [00:10:55] guess better myself as a person or, you know, yeah, I’d be able to look after [00:11:00] me more and others.

Payman Langroudi: I want to do a whole series. I want to do a series. I’ve been asking people [00:11:05] now, a series on. I think it’s quite prevalent in dentistry, where [00:11:10] the woman is the primary earner in the house. It’s [00:11:15] more in dentistry than in a lot of other areas because, you know, dentists can earn. And [00:11:20] I also see it with hygienists often the primary earner in their [00:11:25] house. And is it that that causes tension? Because [00:11:30] I always thought of myself as a very progressive sort of, you know, like anything goes [00:11:35] everyone’s you know, I thought asking this question was quite sort of old fashioned and, [00:11:40] and and sort of, um, you know, chauvinistic to say, well, [00:11:45] why shouldn’t a woman earn more than a man? Why should that even affect anything? But when I look in my [00:11:50] sort of friends circle and people I know who where the woman earns more than the man, it [00:11:55] does. I know 1 or 2 situations where it works, but often that becomes [00:12:00] an issue. Anything to say on that?

Sarovi Davda: Yeah, I think that [00:12:05] if it is an issue, I guess my attitude is it’s.

Payman Langroudi: You earning more than him. Let’s start with that.

Sarovi Davda: Is [00:12:10] any in employment? Yes. In the sense, yeah. Um, but then he [00:12:15] had many investments from investing real young in a very smart way. So, [00:12:20] um, but I do think it I wouldn’t be surprised if it [00:12:25] caused an issue in many, many arenas because we’re still evolving [00:12:30] from our, like, brain where, you know, hunter gatherer versus like, [00:12:35] caregiver. And it takes I don’t know how many years it years it takes. But [00:12:40] it takes like six generations for alcoholism to affect affect, like alcoholism, for example. [00:12:45] Don’t know where we want this, but it affects six generations. There’s still part of our brain that, you know, if we’re left [00:12:50] out of a tribe, that part of the brain is activated where we believe we’re in physical pain. [00:12:55] So our brain has so much evolving to do. So if it’s that the man [00:13:00] is earning less, the woman’s earning more and breeding the children. So until the day [00:13:05] that men can actually bear children, I that’s a lot of role to take up in a [00:13:10] equal dynamic. That’s a that’s not equal. You know, so I can imagine [00:13:15] if it’s not bringing home the bacon unless you’re raised very differently, that’s [00:13:20] hard. That’s really in the same way that it may be hard for me, like brought [00:13:25] up in a, again, a typical way with there’s still this, you know, sausage with electricity brain, essentially. [00:13:30] Um, not having a role in the children like when I was in the marriage, [00:13:35] you know, in my mind it was It was like the kids are kind of mostly, you know, that’s mostly my [00:13:40] department. Yeah. And so as much as I can say that’s changed now, you know, I’ve, [00:13:45] I’ve. But I was essentially not really seeking, um, equality in a relationship. I was seeking, you [00:13:50] know, you take this role and I take this role and. Yeah, [00:13:55] it’s very hard. So if it’s hard for me, it’s hard for a man as well. I can imagine. [00:14:00]

Payman Langroudi: Tell me. I don’t want to. Over, over, over spend my time [00:14:05] on, on divorce and and all of that. Yeah, but but tell me other things that [00:14:10] went through your head. I mean, for instance, did you have a feeling of failure [00:14:15] or shame or.

Sarovi Davda: So I think initially [00:14:20] it was a huge grief and disappointment because I always imagined, you know, sitting on a park [00:14:25] bench hand in hand.

Payman Langroudi: Old lady.

Sarovi Davda: Really old, holding hands. I don’t imagine [00:14:30] anyone goes into marriage taking vows and then thinking, you get divorced. But, you know, I [00:14:35] really like, especially the culture that I guess we’re brought up in. Divorce is just not even [00:14:40] an option. It’s like not viewed upon as a viable option. So initially I [00:14:45] felt a huge sense of grief and sadness. I [00:14:50] also kind of knew inside with each step I took, that it was [00:14:55] absolutely the right decision for me. And weirdly, [00:15:00] and I cannot believe I can attribute this only to a higher power, [00:15:05] that I now have huge pride in the sense that it’s one of the most [00:15:10] empowering decisions I’ve ever made in my life. And I have, I can genuinely say, because [00:15:15] I’m touching my heart right now, not a molecule of shame in me about that decision, but it wasn’t instant. [00:15:20]

Payman Langroudi: At the time.

Sarovi Davda: It was at the time there was some sense of, yeah, [00:15:25] just sadness. I don’t know about failure. I’m trying to think about that. No, [00:15:30] because I was too much in the delusion of it’s not my not my fault, it’s your fault. [00:15:35] And that was a delusion. You know, it’s never like one good cop, bad cop. It’s never actually as [00:15:40] black and white as that. But I think I was safe in that delusion that, well, I didn’t, you know, this is not my [00:15:45] fault. I tried my hardest, you know, victim victimhood. Martyrdom was a big, like, [00:15:50] adapted tool for me. So I didn’t feel that sense of failure because for me, it was like I gave [00:15:55] it my all and it failed because of you, which was not the truth, you know? So then I [00:16:00] guess I bypassed the failure bit because I moved into an understanding of what I contributed, [00:16:05] taking both responsibility, but not necessarily like blame. I don’t think the [00:16:10] blame is useful, but to accountability is very useful. And that’s empowering.

Payman Langroudi: Does that book isn’t there [00:16:15] that the you know, Mohamed Hadid’s got a girlfriend, she’s written a book. It’s [00:16:20] called divorce as an opportunity.

Sarovi Davda: Oh, really? I haven’t read it, but I.

Payman Langroudi: Forget [00:16:25] her name.

Sarovi Davda: I really deeply resonate with with the title. Yeah, absolutely. [00:16:30]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move on. Let’s move on. Um, when you got to guys, it was [00:16:35] guys.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What was that like? So was it like. Oh, big [00:16:40] city.

Sarovi Davda: Big city. No, no. Well, I was a London girl already, in a sense. And you know what? When [00:16:45] I went to guys, everyone went back home for the weekend. Like to take their washing [00:16:50] and mum and dad. So it was kind of like. You’re joking. So it was [00:16:55] kind of like going to school in that sense, but I remember. Do you know what happened on one of the first days we were there? So, [00:17:00] okay, I was this little perfectionist, worked my ass off, did really well at GCSE. [00:17:05] So kind of thought, okay, I can do it and then just scrape by with A-levels. I got three B’s, which was [00:17:10] what was needed to get into dental school. And they sat us in this lecture hall and [00:17:15] they said, those of you who have got three B’s all below [00:17:20] are the bottom of the pile. Essentially this is what I took from it. They’re like, that is [00:17:25] the lowest tier. This is a really hard course, and you’re going to have to work really hard. Everyone. [00:17:30] And this is the lowest. And I was just sat there thinking, oh my God, I [00:17:35] feel shite. I feel really bad. I’m not used to being like the bottom of [00:17:40] the fear.

Payman Langroudi: Of God into you in dental school, and it can’t be a coincidence that we had it. You had. It was [00:17:45] just like the way the course is.

Sarovi Davda: Okay. Should I tell you something else I have in dental school? Yeah. Okay. People [00:17:50] can’t believe this when I share it. So we are young newbies. Uh, we were sat in [00:17:55] this again. We were called for a sexual health lecture in our first couple [00:18:00] of weeks, freshers week. And we sat there this big, like, balcony, [00:18:05] um, seats. And then the kind of the stools, you know. What year was this? It was the first [00:18:10] week.

Payman Langroudi: Freshers week. But what year was it?

Sarovi Davda: Oh. First year.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but what year was that?

Sarovi Davda: Oh, sorry. 1997. [00:18:15] Yeah, 1997. We were sat there and there was this guy, older [00:18:20] guy, giving a lecture on sexual health, and he said, I’m going to take an anonymous survey. Could [00:18:25] we close our eyes and everyone who is a virgin, put your Put your hands up. Well, [00:18:30] everyone who’s had less than five sexual partners, something like that. Who has had more than sexual. [00:18:35] You know, all anonymous. Hands up. So everyone’s hands were raised appropriately.

Payman Langroudi: And no [00:18:40] one could see. No one. I bet there was some peeking.

Sarovi Davda: You wait, you wait.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sarovi Davda: So then [00:18:45] at the end of freshers week, what do we see? Showing a video of the lecture. [00:18:50] They’d taken a mature student to give a fake sexual health [00:18:55] lecture that was then had older years sitting, watching the balcony with their eyes [00:19:00] opening open and taking bets on whose cherries they could pop.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness. [00:19:05]

Sarovi Davda: So.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my.

Sarovi Davda: Goodness. If you want to call that out in the podcast. But [00:19:10] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Today that would be like a police thing.

Sarovi Davda: Today that would be all over the Daily [00:19:15] Mail, the mirror.

Payman Langroudi: You name it, you’re outraged. You must have been.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. I was like crushed. I was like, [00:19:20] you know, I mean, I was a proper little innocent, you know, just. [00:19:25] Yeah. Oh, no. And I remember walking in on guy’s bar. This [00:19:30] is probably not what you expected to hear when you asked the question. I walked in on guy’s bar and this [00:19:35] was like the this is back in the day where they do these, like, dares. I can’t remember what it called. They called [00:19:40] it like an initiation type thing. And I had never seen a male below the waist [00:19:45] ever at that point. And literally I walked into a guy’s bar and [00:19:50] people were pissing all over the bar. Like with the.

Payman Langroudi: Rugby, kind of.

Sarovi Davda: The.

Payman Langroudi: Rugby. [00:19:55]

Sarovi Davda: They were eating like, um, livers or live hearts, whatever. [00:20:00] They were vomiting in each other’s mouths. I was honestly, I was like outraged. I was like, what [00:20:05] have I stepped into from a really like, sort of tiny little.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:20:10] know, guy’s sheltered. You know, you do know guys, rugby club is the oldest rugby [00:20:15] club in the world, is it not the oldest. Not the oldest university rugby club. It’s [00:20:20] the oldest rugby club in the world. So based on that they were they could do whatever they wanted, [00:20:25] you know. And in rugby that’s kind of the direction sometimes it goes in the partying. [00:20:30]

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. So that was the first.

Payman Langroudi: Thing.

Sarovi Davda: I was exposed to. I was shocked. Yeah. Safe to say I [00:20:35] was shocked.

Payman Langroudi: And the workload. Did you find the workload shocking? I did.

Sarovi Davda: I remember [00:20:40] I must have, because in the second year I remember it being really hard. Where that’s when I started [00:20:45] developing Tmjd. Mhm. Yeah. I like I had, I had such [00:20:50] bad jaw rake I could barely open my mouth. So I was really stressed in second year and that [00:20:55] was a really hard year. I remember second year and probably fifth year I imagine. Yeah that [00:21:00] was stressful.

Payman Langroudi: But then do you have other like did you party? Did you just put your head down [00:21:05] and work? No I did. It’s a transition isn’t it. There’s a there’s a reinvention when you go to university. [00:21:10] Right now I’m trying to persuade my son leave London. Yes. Because, you know. [00:21:15] And the thing is, he wants to go for engineering. And Imperial is one [00:21:20] building down from his school. And and so that and you know, they want to put Imperial [00:21:25] down. I’m saying it’s just a massive error, you know, go somewhere else, leave and reinvent. [00:21:30]

Sarovi Davda: Campus as well. When you get to be with other students, like not just dentists. I think that’s kind of fun, right?

Payman Langroudi: But also [00:21:35] London is I mean, London is so hard if you’re doing really well, but it’s particularly hard if you’re a [00:21:40] student. Right. But then also he knows London, right. You know, go somewhere you don’t [00:21:45] know where no one knows you, that sort of thing, you know. Yeah, but go on. So how [00:21:50] did you get on? Did you, did you enjoy it in the end? Was it fun? Do you have friends from that era? [00:21:55] Well, Lali.

Sarovi Davda: Lali. But she wasn’t in my year, so I should actually, um, [00:22:00] some of the. Yeah, a couple of friends I kept in touch with. Um, a really good friends of mine [00:22:05] in the first year, and this probably happens to many people, but I, I did not [00:22:10] have I kind of just experienced the back end of female [00:22:15] fallouts and stuff. So my friends in the first year weren’t the friends I kept for life. [00:22:20] And then I guess I must have had it on a subconscious level if not conscious that right. I’m not [00:22:25] going to be friends with girls like girls are not safe. I’m something so I made friends with in my [00:22:30] in my tutor group. Two guys I called us Harry, Hermione and Ron, and [00:22:35] they were my best friends in the world, one of whom I actually ended up going out [00:22:40] with for a good couple of years. And, um, and [00:22:45] we had the best time. We had a really wonderful time. So I have very good memories, [00:22:50] actually.

Payman Langroudi: People sitting here saying that university was one of the hardest times and they didn’t have a [00:22:55] good time. And I just just take it for granted.

Sarovi Davda: Everyone has that more recently, would you say, or back in the day, is it harder now [00:23:00] than it was before?

Payman Langroudi: Well, harder mentally for them. And what’s interesting is in our day, [00:23:05] there was no, um, I’m a bit older than you, but in our day there was no social media. And [00:23:10] so university was an opportunity to kind of see the world. Whereas [00:23:15] today, you know, they already know what’s going on in the world. And [00:23:20] so university isn’t as much of a leap into the big wide world as [00:23:25] it was for us.

Sarovi Davda: But when you say no, the world like, how much can you know it from a screen, [00:23:30] right? It’s like I could watch on the National Geographic, the Himalayas, I know. So is that so? What [00:23:35] do you mean by like, they know the world? Like they kind of already aware of stuff, so things aren’t eye opening or.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah, [00:23:40] yeah. Like.

Payman Langroudi: Who did we know we were we were in school. [00:23:45] We had our friends around us in school.

Sarovi Davda: We know people like.

Payman Langroudi: Just just yeah, [00:23:50] my my my my son might be, like, messaging some guy in Peru about [00:23:55] a rocket because he’s interested in rockets, right. You know what I mean?

Sarovi Davda: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: We didn’t [00:24:00] have that opportunity.

Sarovi Davda: No, no, we had a very small world. Small world. Whereas then it was like [00:24:05] magnified massively in university. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: The university.

Payman Langroudi: Was what you.

Sarovi Davda: Said.

Payman Langroudi: About the course where [00:24:10] there are others. Yeah. You’re absolutely right about that. Because, you know, some of my friends were these law [00:24:15] students and, and so on, and they had a whole different outlook on on life. [00:24:20] You know, they had only like four hours of lectures and loads of library and stuff. It was just a different type [00:24:25] of person altogether. Yeah. And so that was interesting. But what I’m saying is I’ve [00:24:30] had people here, many people here. So university was one of the darkest parts of [00:24:35] there. And it is sad. It is sad.

Sarovi Davda: I’m saddened by that. Yeah. Because for me [00:24:40] it was it was a really great opportunity to like get. It’s like having fun because my mum gave me strict instructions [00:24:45] at university. She goes, I don’t want you bringing home any A’s. No A’s. I want you [00:24:50] to just scrape by.

Payman Langroudi: That’s different.

Sarovi Davda: That’s very different to Asian. Asian upbringing. [00:24:55] Typically, like, you know, stereotype. My parents, I thank them so [00:25:00] often, so much for not putting any academic pressure [00:25:05] on me. In fact, my mum would be my like, she’d she’d tease us down. When we were [00:25:10] revising for A-levels, my mum would always say, I’ve got your favourite movie downstairs, like. [00:25:15] And we’d be like, mom, stop it. We were. She was so great and we [00:25:20] were so self-motivated. For whatever reason, that she didn’t need to kind of she [00:25:25] she was the one that was instigating us to take our foot off the pedal. So when we went to university, she was [00:25:30] like, right, you got to where you need to get to. That’s it. Don’t try that hard. So [00:25:35] I didn’t have that pressure. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Did you have any idea.

Payman Langroudi: About perio back then or [00:25:40] specialising or. You know, this is.

[TRANSITION]: A it’s a common.

Payman Langroudi: Question, [00:25:45] right? Where I’ve got loads of younger dentists contact me and say what [00:25:50] should I do. Yeah.

Sarovi Davda: And yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And my advice is a bit opposite to most [00:25:55] right. Most people say do a bit of everything. See what turns you on. Yeah. And [00:26:00] then choose one of those things. Um, and the way they normally say is to go to the NHS, do that for [00:26:05] a couple of years, get your wings, you know, get your, get your experience of all those different [00:26:10] things and then decide. My, my. I say the opposite. I say decide [00:26:15] immediately.

Sarovi Davda: Really?

Payman Langroudi: Pick something. Yeah. And then you [00:26:20] end up enjoying whatever you’re good at, right? Like you enjoy. Because you’re good at it, not because you’re specifically [00:26:25] a good gardener. I mean, if you were good at it, though, you’d enjoy that. Um, I fully [00:26:30] zoomed in on one molecule. Hydrogen peroxide. Yeah. And I enjoy that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:26:35]

Payman Langroudi: So that’s that’s what I’m saying. I’m saying decide as early as possible and and then chase [00:26:40] it. What’s your advice?

Sarovi Davda: Well, okay. Going on my own personal experience, [00:26:45] I really wanted to be an orthodontist because I had I had I mean, it was amazing [00:26:50] author, but I yeah, I had orthodontic treatment, got really interested. I thought, that’s what I want to be. I found [00:26:55] it is boring as hell at university. I honestly thought.

[TRANSITION]: It so badly.

Payman Langroudi: Though.

[TRANSITION]: Come [00:27:00] on.

Sarovi Davda: Uh, it’s pretty dynamic, but.

[TRANSITION]: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: But in undergrad.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. [00:27:05]

[TRANSITION]: People love.

Sarovi Davda: Okay, so I didn’t like.

[TRANSITION]: Don’t they?

Payman Langroudi: Everyone who does ortho loves [00:27:10] ortho.

Sarovi Davda: Do they? Yes. Well, that’s why they do it. You know, it’s like, that’s a selective [00:27:15] bias, isn’t it? Surely. So I wanted to do ortho and they got to university and decided, okay, no [00:27:20] way. Not for me. I then I loved children so much, I was like, I want to be a dentist. [00:27:25] But of course, I mean, you’re the most hated role. Like, well, no, maybe not actually, [00:27:30] but just it’s not easy dealing with kids and and inflicting stuff [00:27:35] on them. It’s not like having a facial. I always say to my patients. So that went aside. And then [00:27:40] I was deciding between endo because I love the kind of the precision and it’s almost like [00:27:45] a bit meditative in some ways. I like that. And, you know, and then perio [00:27:50] really came about because of two things I love communicating. [00:27:55] And it’s I love that whole empowering patients, inspiring [00:28:00] for like, life change because it’s not just a one thing thing like, you know, [00:28:05] oh, I do the best débridement and I’ll get the best results. Nah, it’s mostly patient based, [00:28:10] right? So it’s about psychology. So I love that aspect, but it was really fill our and Graham [00:28:15] smart that you know, if you’re looking at those forks in the road of life which have completely [00:28:20] changed or shaped the direction of life, it’s down to those two human beings. I [00:28:25] give thanks to them, you know, regularly. Um, I went on a course very [00:28:30] early on, a couple of years after graduating, taught by these two Periodontists [00:28:35] Graham smart fellow. And they were just such lovely blokes. They [00:28:40] made they had a very.

[TRANSITION]: Can do attitude.

Sarovi Davda: Very passionate, very [00:28:45] forward thinking, very can do because they taught and they just inspired [00:28:50] me. And I kept in contact with them after the course, basically. Um, I sent them a book, um, [00:28:55] my one of my love languages, definitely gift giving. So I sent them a book and kept in contact. [00:29:00] It was Phil who then inspired me to do the MSC, and Phil, who [00:29:05] invited both Ian Dunn and I on board to take Graham Smart’s place when he passed away, [00:29:10] very sadly.

Payman Langroudi: I see you did a Eastman.

Sarovi Davda: Yes. The Eastman.

[TRANSITION]: In [00:29:15] Bellevue.

Sarovi Davda: Actually, it was in restorative practice. But then my thesis, which was supervised [00:29:20] by Phil, was Império, and it was all on, which is so relevant to the Dental legal [00:29:25] field, prognosis and periodontics. But the. I say but okay, I’m saying [00:29:30] this actually, and there’s some self-seeking here. There’s like, um, I did my [00:29:35] MSC exam the day after giving the day I gave birth. And [00:29:40] I really wish like and it’s not regret I wouldn’t do anything differently. But [00:29:45] like my thesis was so awesome, but I didn’t publish it. I was just too engulfed [00:29:50] in motherhood.

[TRANSITION]: Too busy, too busy.

Sarovi Davda: And Phil said, you know, publish it, publish it. He [00:29:55] even said, I want you to write my book. That’s, you know, periodontics, the whole prognosis [00:30:00] chapter. I just never I didn’t do those things. I was too engulfed in mother motherhood. I was [00:30:05] pregnant like six months after giving, nine months after giving birth to my to my first, and I just [00:30:10] didn’t go on with that. But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: While we’re on it, then while we’re on it.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What? [00:30:15] I mean, it’s an unfair question, right? But but in in [00:30:20] a nutshell, what does the GDP need to know regarding prognosis? How do [00:30:25] I know whether this tooth is saveable?

[TRANSITION]: Brilliant question.

Payman Langroudi: Treatment or [00:30:30] not.

Sarovi Davda: So I’d say, number one, what we need to know is, um, we’re rubbish. So [00:30:35] we’re rubbish at predicting the future. So McGuire et al did a series of studies looking at number of patients, [00:30:40] um, where essentially what they did was they attributed to the teeth, uh, [00:30:45] clinical parameters that we normally rely upon when it comes to periodontal prognosis. So pocket [00:30:50] depth, bone levels, etc., etc., all the things you know, you’d think are bog standard to predict [00:30:55] prognosis. And using those clinical parameters when it came to a dodgy [00:31:00] tooth. We are right. Hardly ever. Basically [00:31:05] 50%. Not hardly ever. Sorry so 50% of the time. And when they are good by [00:31:10] all parameters, let’s say good bone levels, no period pockets, no infra bony defects, no mobility [00:31:15] like good. Then we’re at 80% of the time. Now, this is an old study, right. And it wasn’t a randomised [00:31:20] controlled or anything. So we had to actually have very many really high quality studies long [00:31:25] longitudinal on prognosis. But based upon that it’s essentially you have a dodgy [00:31:30] tooth. And if it’s a 50 over 50 chance, you may as well toss a coin. Patient walks [00:31:35] into my surgery. I say it’s going to last. Patient walks into next door surgery. It’s not. [00:31:40] Take it out now. And that’s the patient’s tooth you’re dealing with. And this is what I found in [00:31:45] my thesis in the sense in my in my study. So Phil and I did a questionnaire [00:31:50] showing the same x rays with no clinical data, but to thousands [00:31:55] of delegates on courses and in the same room of 30 [00:32:00] delegates that we’d be teaching same x ray would have at least one [00:32:05] person saying it’s for the bin, this tooth and another person for him saying it’s going to last [00:32:10] ten years or more.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Sarovi Davda: And that’s with, you know, a small select. But then it was a [00:32:15] large number of delegates. We have very very different views upon [00:32:20] prognosis. So that’s the number one thing. Very heterogeneous in our views. I [00:32:25] don’t have any clinical parameters that form what we call a really safe [00:32:30] basis upon which to assign a really accurate prognosis. The second thing [00:32:35] I’d say to know as a GDP is that it’s mostly driven. And we all kind of know this now [00:32:40] based on patient factors. So it’s about oral hygiene, genetics, diabetes, [00:32:45] smoking all those things. Versus and this is what the evidence [00:32:50] shows that most of us base our clinical um prognosis on radiographs alone. [00:32:55] That’s the most influential. Weems et al. 2013 I think 2003, [00:33:00] they did a study showing that, you know, what is the most influential factor in Factor in prognosis, and people almost exclusively [00:33:05] rely upon radiographic bone levels. And that’s not where that’s not where the evidence lies. [00:33:10] So look at patient driven factors. So those are kind of, you know, I’d say probably two big [00:33:15] take homes when it comes to prognosis. And also because based on that sorry. Third thing [00:33:20] give the tooth a chance. So give the tooth a chance if you can. Unless it’s really really [00:33:25] short, you know, and you kind of know when it’s about to be sneezed at the mouth, give it a chance [00:33:30] because you just never know.

Payman Langroudi: But then do you also see that in your [00:33:35] clinical practice, in that there are some teeth that you think don’t have a chance and they survive? And the opposite.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah, [00:33:40] yeah I.

[TRANSITION]: Do. So there are very.

Payman Langroudi: There aren’t very reliable [00:33:45] prognosis prognostic indicators then.

Sarovi Davda: Well there are in terms of smoking and diabetes. And [00:33:50] those are reliable prognostic indicators in the sense that we have the evidence. You know you smoke ten [00:33:55] cigarettes or more a day. You’re five times more likely to lose your teeth or whatever. And these things I share with the [00:34:00] patient. So if I have a patient that’s got like, let’s say 80% bone loss and they smoke [00:34:05] like a chimney and they have uncontrolled diabetes and they’re obese and they’re got pants or hygiene, [00:34:10] and they continue to do that. Sure enough, they’re going to lose a tooth. That’s very [00:34:15] predictable in that way. But the thing is, if they’re modifiable, those risk factors, [00:34:20] then who knows what the future holds. And I have seen teeth with patients that fully engage [00:34:25] and change hang on far longer than you’d ever think possible. So it really [00:34:30] very much depends upon that. And also periodontal therapy, of course, you know, which is part and parcel [00:34:35] of it.

Payman Langroudi: And you know, the the question of bony infill.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:34:40] mean by now I think we kind of think, yeah, it’s a real thing. It happens. [00:34:45] Yeah. Traditionally that wasn’t the case. Right. That wasn’t not.

Sarovi Davda: So this is something that, [00:34:50] again, Phil enlightened me with. Um, that when I was at university, bony infill was just [00:34:55] a myth. It was like, I remember even talking to one of my MSC, and I [00:35:00] And I did my MSC. I finished in 2013. Um, I spoke [00:35:05] to Bonini, Phil, and the way that I was managing Perry at the time with one of my MSC tutors, and he [00:35:10] said, quote, and what are you going to do next? Rob magic crystals over the pockets [00:35:15] and hope they heal. And I.

Payman Langroudi: Was like.

Sarovi Davda: Then I had radiographic evidence [00:35:20] and there were studies like quark and you know, there were studies coming out saying that you can get radiographic [00:35:25] bone infill. And now it’s like we all accept it and it’s like a kind of a given. You [00:35:30] do certain things.

Payman Langroudi: Is it taught now in undergrad.

Sarovi Davda: It’s taught by okay. So I mean, I’m [00:35:35] not an undergrad. I know what’s taught at undergrad, to be fair, but Louis-jeune and Barley’s work, tortellinis [00:35:40] work is very well accepted across the field in the sense that not not in it has to be certain. [00:35:45] It has to be an infra bony defects. You know, you’re not gonna get horizontal bone loss with certain criteria, etc. [00:35:50] but that’s getting more that we are developing. And this still needs more evidence, but more reliable [00:35:55] ways of getting bony infill around, you know, your clot stability. Essentially that’s what it [00:36:00] is. So it’s and and looking at that, it’s in fact the Luigi Nibali [00:36:05] I went to a course of his recently and he was saying out of the three things he did like this thing, I [00:36:10] can I remember all three. He said, what’s the most influential factor of whether you’re going to get bone infill? Is [00:36:15] it one the patient? Two the anatomy, the actual site. [00:36:20] Or three something else. And it was the it was the site. So it’s not and I thought it [00:36:25] was about the patient. Yeah. But actually that’s the most influential. It’s a type of defect. You have the [00:36:30] site and that will predict whether you get more likely or not to get bone infill.

Payman Langroudi: Can we talk about [00:36:35] floss?

Sarovi Davda: Because can we talk about a.

Payman Langroudi: Bugbear of mine? Yeah. Yeah. I [00:36:40] think we should not teach floss to anyone. Why ask me why?

Sarovi Davda: Okay. Why [00:36:45] why why why? Because.

Payman Langroudi: Because firstly, it’s very difficult to teach [00:36:50] and no one learns. Yeah, sort of thing. You know what I mean? Of course. Now, I’m sure there’s hygienist [00:36:55] around the country saying I teach it well and people learn. Yeah, but secondly, it’s [00:37:00] crap, isn’t it? Floss compared to interdental brushing. And then the [00:37:05] hygienist will say something like, oh, we teach both. Yeah, but since we know the patient’s capacity for learning [00:37:10] isn’t that great for me? Don’t talk about floss at all. Only [00:37:15] talk about interdental brushes. At least they can get into dental brushes a bit more right than [00:37:20] they. Because people struggle with those two, right? I mean, you must have had this, right. You you know, you can get into dental [00:37:25] brush, into the furcation and stuff, right? You can do all sorts of fun things if you really teach a patient. But [00:37:30] I feel like floss just confuses the picture and it ain’t that great. Because, [00:37:35] you know, the other thing about floss, this is my personal bugbear. Where [00:37:40] does where does plaque build? Right in in, you know, the root surface isn’t this beautiful [00:37:45] smooth thing is it. It’s it’s an undulating plaque builds in those rough [00:37:50] areas and floss doesn’t get into those rough areas. You know, it floss would [00:37:55] be all right if they managed to get it on either side. And it was a perfect circular root [00:38:00] surface, but it’s none of those things. The root surface is in and out. Plus can’t get into those nooks and crannies [00:38:05] here, so why even bother? Why bother with floors? I think it’s more a legacy thing. [00:38:10]

Sarovi Davda: Okay, so I would agree with you, but also the studies back you. So we’ve known this since 2016. [00:38:15] It was the world.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve known this since 1995. Back to what [00:38:20] we were.

Sarovi Davda: Talking in terms of the studies. It’s not just a study. It’s like, you know, the world of workshop.

Payman Langroudi: It’s overwhelming. [00:38:25]

Sarovi Davda: It’s like this was in the In the world workshop or the or the I. [00:38:30]

Payman Langroudi: Remember.

Sarovi Davda: The workshop.

Payman Langroudi: In Europe, didn’t it. The floors.

Sarovi Davda: Like. Yeah. So it’s like the [00:38:35] advice is based upon that evidence that getting interdental brush wherever you can and only floss where [00:38:40] you can. But for all those reasons, I personally, again, backed by the evidence [00:38:45] as well, is I’d agree with you. Would you floss is much more technique sensitive. It’s really difficult. [00:38:50] Where is it most difficult? Where you most need it It posteriorly. Incidentally. Um, [00:38:55] and yeah, as brushes are far easier in the sense that yes, of course people [00:39:00] do have problems, but it’s, it’s usually a technique thing that you can get through, get [00:39:05] via different tools, different techniques, whatever. You know, I don’t generally I can [00:39:10] only think of one patient that I who just wasn’t able to get [00:39:15] interdental brushes in. And then, you know, you can go to I’d rather go to inter [00:39:20] pics even if I have to downgrade. I don’t love them at all. I have not found, [00:39:25] I have to say yeah, they don’t have as better as good a biofilm disruption as the interdental brushes, but I’d rather [00:39:30] do that than floss because if they’re struggling with interdental brushes, I think flossing is even harder.

Payman Langroudi: But if we go [00:39:35] out in the street and ask 100 people, they’ll all know about floss.

Sarovi Davda: I think it’s I know, [00:39:40] I think.

Payman Langroudi: That’s weird, isn’t it? We managed to get that story out very well, even though it’s not a great story.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. [00:39:45] You know, I think it’s it’s almost easier to roll off the tongue brush and floss. It’s [00:39:50] like monosyllabic, isn’t it? Isn’t it? Whereas interdental brush. We need to create a small word for it.

Payman Langroudi: If you if [00:39:55] you ask.

Sarovi Davda: 100 people on the street.

Payman Langroudi: About interdental brushing.

Sarovi Davda: I.

Payman Langroudi: Know only the 5% who’ve had perio [00:40:00] disease will know anything about it.

Sarovi Davda: It’s crazy. I do think we need to re-educate like [00:40:05] the entire profession to personally. I mean, that might be a bit controversial, but honestly, [00:40:10] because it’s evidence backed. Step away from the floss. Floss only when you can’t get into dental brushes. [00:40:15]

Payman Langroudi: Listen, floss has a an amount of good. Yeah, an amount of good.

Sarovi Davda: Brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: My [00:40:20] my my point is, there’s.

Sarovi Davda: Only a limited.

Payman Langroudi: Amount of time. Yeah. So trying to teach [00:40:25] both is an error.

Sarovi Davda: So I always say to patients when they come to me, I always say, right, bring in every [00:40:30] first lesson. Bring in every single thing you’ve you’ve been used using throughout your whole life. [00:40:35] And we’re going to debunk all the myths and misnomers because and this is what I say to [00:40:40] them, I want you to get the maximum results in the shortest amount of time possible. [00:40:45] And the first thing I usually do is say, ditch the floss. Because the other thing is, you know, when [00:40:50] we say interested, we say use the floss where you can’t get into dental brushes. Right. So [00:40:55] where you can get. Yeah. Practically everywhere. No. Apart from lower anterior teeth, how many [00:41:00] times on a non-smoker have we actually seen that there’s a worse periodontal affected region? How [00:41:05] many times? So if a patient is like, I’m not going to be able to spend this amount of time, [00:41:10] I don’t often have that many patients resisting by the time they’ve come to me. But I’m like, even [00:41:15] if it means getting to the back brilliantly and leaving the anteriors that have [00:41:20] no bone loss, I’m willing to trash the floss completely and concentrate what [00:41:25] you have the disease, you know. So I’m on the same page as you for sure.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Where are you? On [00:41:30] a guided biofilm therapy.

Sarovi Davda: Where am I on it in terms of do I like it, do [00:41:35] I, I.

Payman Langroudi: What do you say about it? What’s your feeling on it?

Sarovi Davda: Okay. Well, the whole point is to disrupt [00:41:40] the biofilm in terms of dnpr. I’m glad we’ve we’ve changed our views. If [00:41:45] it does the job, great, because it’s very technical. It’s very patient friendly. [00:41:50] So I do have it in my practice. And yeah, very comfortable. And there was some debate [00:41:55] before the S3 guidance around implants and peri implantitis was brought out last October. [00:42:00] In terms of there was a there was a leaning towards Gbdt when it comes to [00:42:05] implants, but that’s actually we haven’t got enough evidence for it. So I think I [00:42:10] use a combination personally. Um, in terms of if patients have a really [00:42:15] acute sensitivity, they’ve got gingivitis, not periodontitis. In fact, they can solve that [00:42:20] with oral hygiene alone, frankly. Um, you know, I’m happy to use guided biofilm therapy. [00:42:25] I think it has a place, but it’s not [00:42:30] going to remove calculus, which I know isn’t the be all and end all. But it’s.

Payman Langroudi: No, they say [00:42:35] to remove the calculus second. Right. Not first.

Sarovi Davda: So I, I think there is a place.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting [00:42:40] idea. Right. Because you don’t go around scratching the tooth like trying to get biofilm [00:42:45] off with the, with the scalar.

Sarovi Davda: Well, scalar is the whole point they were invented was [00:42:50] because we were. We thought root planing was what was needed. So it’s like the [00:42:55] right tool for the right job. You know when I was teaching with Phil we’d show this video. He’d have two videos alongside, [00:43:00] and he’d had this piece of wood covered by stain. And he goes, there are two ways [00:43:05] to get the stain off. One is with a wood planer. Yeah. Okay. A root planer. [00:43:10] And the second is with a piece of cloth and some water [00:43:15] or you know. And he’d do the two alongside and then below that then you’d click and up comes [00:43:20] a picture of intraoral root planing, which is obviously ghastly to look at and to experience. [00:43:25] And these local anaesthetic. And the next one was like, you know, using potentially even. [00:43:30] Right. That’s the thing. Either that or to use a polishing brush. It was in that case. [00:43:35] Or ultrasonics or whatever. And he’d say you know, which one would you rather have as a as both [00:43:40] do the job of course, but, you know, use the right tool for the right job. So [00:43:45] if you believe in route planning, use a route planner. We’re not saying don’t do it. That’s the job [00:43:50] you’re trying to accomplish. Do it. If you don’t use the right tool. So that’s I [00:43:55] think that’s a very powerful message with visuals. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How did [00:44:00] you get into the medico legal side.

Sarovi Davda: Again through Phil. God, [00:44:05] I owe so much to him. Thank you. Phil. Um, he had been doing it for the last for 20 years. I [00:44:10] really loved essay writing, and I just I was fascinated [00:44:15] by the field, and I wanted to. And this is a big, big thing. So I started my training when [00:44:20] I knew that I was I wasn’t going to be seeing my children every [00:44:25] day down to the divorce, and I wanted to still drop them off to school, pick [00:44:30] them up and earn a salary and a living. So then that’s when I started to look into Dental [00:44:35] Legal. So I did my qualification with Cardiff University. I took my exams and [00:44:40] then lo and behold, oh, it only took me a me a year and it’s super easy.

Payman Langroudi: And distance [00:44:45] learning.

Sarovi Davda: No, I went in actually at that time because it was pre Covid. So I went into London. [00:44:50] Um there’s an exam but it’s open book. It’s all, it’s, you know, brilliant teaching [00:44:55] as well. So I did all that. You have to present a case. So you have to write up kind of a report [00:45:00] as well.

Payman Langroudi: Like how hard is it. Is it difficult.

Sarovi Davda: Really easy.

Payman Langroudi: Is it, is it.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah, it’s really [00:45:05] easy, but. Well I think I think.

Payman Langroudi: It’s really.

Sarovi Davda: Easy, but I don’t think just me. I’m not like a brainiac. [00:45:10] It’s. No, it’s really easy. The great teaching the exam isn’t meant to trip you up. It’s. [00:45:15] It’s like a very basic exam that’s open book. You can have your stuff.

Payman Langroudi: In the idea [00:45:20] that you are an expert in one part of dentistry. And this is just the legal framework for any kind [00:45:25] of expert. Is that how it works?

Sarovi Davda: What do you.

Payman Langroudi: Mean? So you know about perio?

Sarovi Davda: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:45:30] your your likely outcome from this is to take care of perio cases. Yes. [00:45:35] But the training is just legal. It’s nothing to do with dentistry.

Sarovi Davda: So it’s oh so you have [00:45:40] like all sorts you have We have physiotherapists going to these. You’re in the room with like um [00:45:45] yeah. You get separated off potentially into like medico med. There’s, there’s [00:45:50] bits where you go into your various field but you have like you know, yeah, social workers, [00:45:55] you have like yeah, you have all different people going into in the civil court system [00:46:00] essentially, usually because it’s very rarely criminal. So yeah, you get you get all sorts of people. [00:46:05]

Payman Langroudi: So what do you now, now you’re going to have to give us like a, you know, like a five minute round up of [00:46:10] how not to get into medico legal problems around because I suspect [00:46:15] it’s one of the most common areas of where people.

Sarovi Davda: You’d be surprised. [00:46:20] Is it so 20% only down to Dental litigation. Is that down to perio? Do you know what?

Payman Langroudi: Number [00:46:25] one is a lot though?

Sarovi Davda: Yeah, yeah, I know you’re right, but I would have thought it was number one. And [00:46:30] it’s not this. This is this is 2017 data. Do I think so. It’s not up to date [00:46:35] I think it’s 2017. But the number one is extractions.

Payman Langroudi: Extractions.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. And [00:46:40] then it’s after that. What’s that? I think it’s. I can’t [00:46:45] remember now. What’s after extractions? Implants is the last one, but I think it’s going to increase. [00:46:50] It’s about 9%. No, it’s not ortho. It might be endo. [00:46:55] I think the second and third is perio. Fourth is caries and fillings. [00:47:00]

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Sarovi Davda: And then it’s implants I think after that.

Payman Langroudi: So how do we not get into trouble [00:47:05] legally regarding what are the most common cases that you see. Are they neglect. [00:47:10]

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. Supervised neglect in the sense that three monthly cleans and [00:47:15] and and and this is the crux. This is really important [00:47:20] and bone loss. Okay. So you don’t have so people probably don’t realise this. [00:47:25] Okay. I can basically not treat a patient. I can be utterly neglectful. [00:47:30] But if they haven’t suffered as a result of my neglect, there is no case. [00:47:35] So that’s called causation. So there has to be a breach of Breach of duty, but it has to be that a breach of [00:47:40] duty has caused an outcome. So if a patient has been receiving three monthly [00:47:45] scale and polishes no oral hygiene, no smoking, nothing, but they haven’t lost bone, no [00:47:50] case. It’s only when they’ve lost bone underneath your care and you haven’t you and and you have reached [00:47:55] your care of your duty of care.

Payman Langroudi: So if they haven’t been informed. Right.

Sarovi Davda: Yes. [00:48:00] Yeah. So the first thing I’d say is what you need to do is ensure that patient doesn’t [00:48:05] lose bone. And you need to know if they’ve lost bone. So take x [00:48:10] rays and what I’ve often. So according to the guidelines right. Asks [00:48:15] every six months if they’ve got caries or something until they don’t. If they’ve got [00:48:20] perio I’d be guided by. If they’ve got perio you should be taking six point pocket [00:48:25] charts every year. So guided by that. So if I have a patient that’s let’s say I’m seeing under like [00:48:30] supportive periodontal therapy and their pocket charts remain stable. [00:48:35] Everything seems clinically great. I only take, um, like, periapical [00:48:40] radiographs to check if something has changed in area or every two years. [00:48:45] You could argue even every four years there’s not really, really tight guidance around that. But if [00:48:50] something periodontal changes, that’s when you need to take investigative radiographs. If you’re in [00:48:55] general practice, you’re taking bitewings anyway. We know that because BSP guidelines that [00:49:00] if it doesn’t show the crestal bone levels, take more investigative x rays. So essentially just know where your bone [00:49:05] is and where I see this mist. And this is the most I’d say I need to do an audit. [00:49:10] But one, the most common reasons for suing your dentist down to perio is when [00:49:15] patients are losing front teeth. Now, it’s not the [00:49:20] backs that they, you know, you lose a front teeth.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [00:49:25] disaster. Right?

Sarovi Davda: So if you have someone who’s a new patient that’s come to you and [00:49:30] they have a history of smoking, take some periapicals the anterior just know where [00:49:35] those that bone level is. Because so often I get um claimants, as in cases [00:49:40] where claimants are suing their dentists who seen them for the last five years. They’ve they’ve got, [00:49:45] let’s say 80% bone loss, but there are no periapicals taken at the start of care. I [00:49:50] mean, balance probabilities, that’s what we work on as a legal test. That 80% [00:49:55] won’t have all been lost within the last five years, but it would be really helpful to have some periapicals [00:50:00] at the beginning and at the end that show. Hey, bone level hasn’t changed. She [00:50:05] came in with 80% bone loss. She’s got 80% bone loss at the end under five years because she stopped [00:50:10] smoking 15 years ago. You know like that I would say take take really good [00:50:15] x rays take accurate I mean I don’t know why we’re [00:50:20] still going wrong with BP’s, but I recently had a case I was literally looking yesterday where it says in [00:50:25] the clinical notes, deep pockets and the BP is like [00:50:30] two, two, two. Where are we not educating our undergrads that if you have [00:50:35] pockets over 3.5mm, you will not get a BP. Yeah, that’s zero, 1 [00:50:40] or 2. Like something is not. I don’t know what’s going wrong but like [00:50:45] accurate BP taking.

Payman Langroudi: Is that common?

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. Really common. Oh it’s one of the, one [00:50:50] of the most common allegations. Um, what what is it? The BP scores were inaccurate and an [00:50:55] underestimation. The bone present. Bone loss present. Yeah. So the most common allegations [00:51:00] I see are not taking accurate. Bp’s not taking six [00:51:05] point pocket charts. That’s really, really, really common.

Payman Langroudi: Six point pocket charts.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. [00:51:10] Or pocket charts.

Payman Langroudi: Or patient.

Sarovi Davda: Okay. It doesn’t have to be six point okay. It could be four point. Yeah. So not [00:51:15] taking periodontal pocket charts um performing scale and polishes. I [00:51:20] mean we are still using this data terminology, but using scale and polishes as [00:51:25] opposed to acceptable terms for therapy like debridement or PMP or whatever [00:51:30] it takes, but not scale and polishes, not taking reassessment. Pocket charts. You know, um, [00:51:35] because actually, if you don’t start off treating it, you don’t reassess it. Like if [00:51:40] you haven’t diagnosed it, you’re not going to take a periodontal assessment, you’re not gonna take a dental assessment, you’re not going to [00:51:45] treat it properly. You’re not going to treat it properly, you’re not going to reassess it properly. And then one thing that always comes [00:51:50] up delayed or complete absence of offer of a referral [00:51:55] to a periodontal specialist. And I’d say if you’re not, if you’re not confident in treating it well [00:52:00] from the get go, offer referral from the get go and document it. And the other [00:52:05] thing to document discuss periodontal disease is one thing [00:52:10] it doesn’t give any, you know, if you have a claimant standing up in court saying, okay, [00:52:15] they said I had gum disease.

Sarovi Davda: I had no idea what that meant. I didn’t realise that I was [00:52:20] five years away from losing my front tooth. You know, you need to be have a really you need [00:52:25] to have a really tailored conversation with a patient that that understands [00:52:30] what the risk is and how real that risk is. Like we all know smoking is not good [00:52:35] for us. Smoking is not good for our teeth. It’s a very different conversation when a patient hears [00:52:40] you have already lost 80% of the bone holding your front tooth in, and if you continue to [00:52:45] smoke, you will lose it. I can’t say whether it’s in ten years, 5 or 1, but it’s going [00:52:50] to happen. That’s a very different conversation. They can still say, no, I love my fags and I’ll lose my tooth, [00:52:55] no problem. It’s none of our business. Their decision, they’re an adult, but it’s our [00:53:00] job to tell them with personalised terms as opposed to generalised. You have [00:53:05] gum disease. You know that you can lose your two teeth if you. [00:53:10] It has to be in context. That’s what it is in context.

Payman Langroudi: I stopped practising in 2012 [00:53:15] where we didn’t have so much medical, [00:53:20] legal and essay writing in the notes. Yeah, and you’re from [00:53:25] the legal industry that’s built up built up around all of this, right? But [00:53:30] do you recognise what I’m saying when I say that we are now the lawyers of [00:53:35] one? We are now better at writing notes than [00:53:40] fixing patients in a way. You know.

Sarovi Davda: So [00:53:45] we’re pretty. We were pretty dire at reading Barrier, actually, from a long time ago. We’re [00:53:50] probably better at that, to be fair. We’re actually better in our management.

Payman Langroudi: I’m just so, so frustrated with the [00:53:55] fact that the lawyers have won.

Sarovi Davda: You know, would you say they won for sure?

Payman Langroudi: For sure. [00:54:00] 100%.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: When I look at my my wife’s still a dentist, when I look at the notes, I’m like, what the [00:54:05] hell, man? Like writing all those notes and and, like, the [00:54:10] amount of time you’re spending writing all those notes. And by the way, we went to A&E, [00:54:15] you know, a major situation, you know, like with slipped disc situation. You know, I was watching the guy. Not [00:54:20] that much. Notes were being written. Not that much. Nowhere near as much. Nowhere. Nowhere near as much as some poor [00:54:25] hygienist has to write about us.

Sarovi Davda: It’s ridiculous. I would agree that [00:54:30] our notes are administrative burden has massively increased down to [00:54:35] lawyers, but.

Payman Langroudi: Disproportionately.

Sarovi Davda: What I can see. Our treatment of periodontal [00:54:40] disease is also like I’m looking back at 1980s notes or [00:54:45] exam S&P exam S&P. There’s like you know nothing going on in terms of treatment. [00:54:50] We have got better at treating it. If we’ve got better at treating it then patients win. Of course [00:54:55] that yeah of course.

Payman Langroudi: And you know.

Sarovi Davda: Like I think good changes and very [00:55:00] cumbersome changes have come about from the legal industry. Yeah I don’t work [00:55:05] for anyone but the court and I mean that. So my duty of care, duty as an [00:55:10] independent expert witness is that I’m an independent. Yeah. So you don’t get any other. [00:55:15] To be fair, you don’t get if.

Payman Langroudi: I’m a dentist in trouble, I can’t call on you to be my expert witness.

Sarovi Davda: No. [00:55:20] So I’m instructed by purpose.

Payman Langroudi: Is that. What is that? I mean, some of them. Some of Some of them.

Sarovi Davda: For [00:55:25] the for the for the for like the. So that justice can be carried in terms of so you [00:55:30] have the whole point of expert witnesses is that we are independent. It’s part of our like directive that we have to [00:55:35] be unbiased, you know, independent expert witnesses. So [00:55:40] I actually get which is incredibly rare by audited my caseload last year, um, [00:55:45] 50% instruction. It was exactly when I say it was like literally the case number, [00:55:50] 50% instruction claimant from the claimants solicitors and 50% instruction from the [00:55:55] indemnity societies representing the, you know, defendant. It might change this year. It’s not going to be 5050 [00:56:00] necessarily on on the on the mark every year. But I’m I’m instructed [00:56:05] equally and my report for each of them is exactly the same.

Payman Langroudi: Do [00:56:10] you do you do you understand what I’m saying when I say a lot of the outcomes of, [00:56:15] of these court cases ends up with a, a disproportionate [00:56:20] again, a disproportionate amount is based on the skill [00:56:25] of the lawyer.

Sarovi Davda: Hmm. I [00:56:30] mean, I’ve only been in court once. Oh, really? So because it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Not following. [00:56:35]

Sarovi Davda: The case. Um. No. No, no. Do you know? Well, no. I have followed up [00:56:40] to many on many, many, many cases up until kind of the 11th hour, where you’ve had [00:56:45] joint expert meetings. You’ve, you know, you’ve really chewed the cud over all the issues up until the very end. [00:56:50] Would I say it matters on a lawyer? Like I said, I haven’t.

Payman Langroudi: It definitely does. Like, well [00:56:55] I’m not.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah it does. I’m not 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Sure about medico legal but in legal. Yeah. The [00:57:00] how good your lawyer is really is the most I for me the biggest variable in whether you’re [00:57:05] going to win or not.

Sarovi Davda: I.

Payman Langroudi: Think actually.

Sarovi Davda: You know do you know what I think the barrister [00:57:10] is a big important part when it comes to actually getting in court, for sure. When [00:57:15] it comes to the lawyer. Yes, yes. And also actually the expert witness, [00:57:20] That is like, okay, when I did my first joint meeting, [00:57:25] so I took on my first case. I was, you know, called to a joint meeting. And when I say joint meeting, sorry, not a [00:57:30] joint meeting, I mean a meeting. So this is my instructing solicitor with, you know, the defendant or [00:57:35] the claimant with some. I was expecting to sit there and just listen to what’s going on. [00:57:40] And I was wrong. Literally the entire two hour meeting was about [00:57:45] my report. And it is the most, I say, pivotal piece [00:57:50] of evidence in the whole thing, at least one of them. It’s [00:57:55] really important. And you have an expert that has a very, you [00:58:00] know, particular view, let’s say a biased view or a particular view. [00:58:05] It’s a big swing component. It’s a big component. [00:58:10] Like, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do people ever challenge you.

Sarovi Davda: In [00:58:15] all the like? That’s the whole point, right? Challenge me. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: No. But challenging [00:58:20] you as the expert?

Sarovi Davda: Yes. The other side.

Payman Langroudi: We don’t. We don’t accept this [00:58:25] expert as an expert.

Sarovi Davda: Ah, you mean.

Payman Langroudi: We want a different expert?

Sarovi Davda: Um, [00:58:30] have they challenged me? They’ll question me on certain points. I’ve [00:58:35] haven’t been sort of shoved off a case because they don’t like my opinion. Because I tend to. I [00:58:40] like to think I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: They want a specialist.

Sarovi Davda: So [00:58:45] they because I because [00:58:50] of what I’ve done and my qualifications. I’ve been accepted as a specialist [00:58:55] in this. Not on the register, but a specialist in periodontics, by the court, by a judge. [00:59:00] And that’s good enough in a sense, because I can basically. Can you argue your own that you are a like a [00:59:05] you have a special interest, you have enough information in this field. And I’ve been able to do that because whatever [00:59:10] my history of teaching 14 years or and my MSC and the fact that I exclusively [00:59:15] practice in perio now, um, but that’s, I guess, my knowledge, you feel like.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a vulnerability, like insomuch [00:59:20] as, let’s say I’m I’m, I’m the dentist and the claimant says something, and then you say something [00:59:25] that’s against me. Can’t I say, hey, this isn’t even a specialist.

Sarovi Davda: Yes. And they have brought [00:59:30] that to court, have they? Yeah, yeah. So when I was in court and I was being cross-examined, they said, are you on the specialist [00:59:35] register? And I said, no, and then I’ll give my qualifications. It’s whether the judge really deems [00:59:40] that to be appropriate. And actually I think well, I’d like to think like when I get talking, [00:59:45] it’s quite clear that I know what I’m talking about. And a lot of the stuff that with [00:59:50] the, you know, I’ll be on the same page, most of us [00:59:55] will be on same pages. It just might be a slightly different view on certain [01:00:00] things. Or, you know, in treatment planning, for example. And actually, I was really pleased to see that [01:00:05] in terms of my particular view on periodontics, which I feel is highly evidence based. There was a case [01:00:10] recently, I think it was 2022, where one of the periodontists that was there [01:00:15] had treatment planning very similar to how I would look at it from Periodontists. [01:00:20] So for example, okay, one of the big things I have is that and this is S3 guidance [01:00:25] back now. We should not be placing implants in patients who have unstable periodontal disease. [01:00:30]

Sarovi Davda: Like it’s just a kind of don’t go there. Whereas actually you’ll get a lot of experts [01:00:35] and they could well be from the prosthetic from like, you know, implant ologists. I know there’s no speciality, [01:00:40] but someone has been placing implants who will conduct a check [01:00:45] of the patient. Um, it’s obviously not from a periodontal aspect for such. And write down [01:00:50] a treatment plan for this claimant that has full mouth rehab of, you know, £70,000 [01:00:55] worth of implants. And then on the other side is a periodontist or someone like myself [01:01:00] who says this patient isn’t yet suitable for implants. And this is why. [01:01:05] And that will be the difference between a £10,000 treatment plan with dentures, [01:01:10] or a £70,000 treatment plan with a full mouth rehab with implants. [01:01:15] And that’s where the the issues are disparate and it goes to court. And that was what [01:01:20] happened actually with this case I’m talking about. It was taken to court. And it was actually the judge that said, [01:01:25] this makes a lot of sense what the periodontist is saying and awarded the [01:01:30] claimant those fees as opposed to the yeah, the claimants.

Payman Langroudi: Fees, had there [01:01:35] been in that case consent from the patient. Mhm. And it had been explained [01:01:40] and the patient had consented properly. If it was informed consent, [01:01:45] would that have changed everything.

Sarovi Davda: In clinical practice. Yes possibly. Right. [01:01:50] But this is where.

Payman Langroudi: In that case.

Sarovi Davda: The government’s awarding like the public is [01:01:55] awarding the amount. Sorry not the public sorry. It would be the it would be the indemnity [01:02:00] society. That’s then awarding that as opposed to the the claimant saying I’ll [01:02:05] take on the risk, I’ll pay with my own money. And if it goes tits up, that’s [01:02:10] fine. But but in court you’re being awarded it by the other side, right? So [01:02:15] that’s when it becomes an issue.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. Yeah. Where do you fall on? [01:02:20] You know, I’m being a bit biased, but whitening perio patients.

Sarovi Davda: Where [01:02:25] do I fall? What do you mean?

Payman Langroudi: Well, it’s kind of a funny thing, like, should you, [01:02:30] could you can you bleach someone who’s not [01:02:35] stable periodically?

Sarovi Davda: Ah. I see. Um, [01:02:40] well, there’s certainly no health detriment to it in the sense that it’s not going to harm unless [01:02:45] you have ulcerations the gum. That’s going to hurt like hell.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. More sensitivity, maybe during treatment. But [01:02:50] then even the stable one, you’d get.

Sarovi Davda: Uh, no. Stable. [01:02:55] I think I’m of the opinion that. What’s the problem with doing it? Well, [01:03:00] that’s that’s the test. Not when it’s unstable, necessarily. In terms of stability. I prefer to [01:03:05] work in a very conventional way, which are like, put the fires out first. Yeah. Stabilise. And then the aesthetics. [01:03:10] Like the cherry on the cake. That’s the way I prefer to work.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the. That’s the textbook, isn’t it?

Sarovi Davda: Yeah, but [01:03:15] in terms of the detriment.

Payman Langroudi: The patient wants whitening. Yeah, as long as the patient knows. [01:03:20]

Sarovi Davda: Yeah, I think it’s fine. I’m not going to say no. I mean, I start getting a little [01:03:25] bit uncomfortable when they’re like, I can’t afford to go ahead with a débridement, but I want to whiter my teeth. [01:03:30] That’s just my judgement. But yeah, exactly. Exactly. So so I have [01:03:35] to put my stuff aside. Yeah, I agree with you. It’s their money and it’s their teeth. As long as I inform them, [01:03:40] as long as I inform them. So, you know, you could whiten these teeth, but they may not be teeth left there to whiten in ten [01:03:45] years time. As long as I’m. I’m honest.

Payman Langroudi: And I guess I guess you have to. Some dentists wouldn’t [01:03:50] do it. Yeah, which is fine. Yeah. If then says I would.

Sarovi Davda: Well, see, I have the luxury of not [01:03:55] doing it. So it’s like I don’t have to deal with the actual. I’ve done it, but I haven’t treated [01:04:00] their perio thing very morally. Easily easy for me. Yeah. You know, I can say, [01:04:05] sure, you can get it done with your dentist. Of course. You know, you’re a free human being. Yeah. I [01:04:10] don’t offer it myself. So it’s easy. Yeah. No. Just because they [01:04:15] go back to their genders. I mean, I’m getting referred in patients. Yeah. So it would be very. Also, it’s treading on toes. [01:04:20] Right. So I refer everything back to the GDP. That would be GDP territory. I don’t take that myself. [01:04:25] I just deal with the Perrier.

Payman Langroudi: So have you got no plans to become a specialist?

Sarovi Davda: No. [01:04:30] Do you know? I don’t, and I have thought about it a number [01:04:35] of times because I just love learning.

Payman Langroudi: I love to become a specialist now, with everything that you’ve [01:04:40] done. Isn’t there, like, a shortened way of doing it?

Sarovi Davda: So I could have done it. So the same way that Ian did, because Ian and I have the same [01:04:45] qualifications. So he did do MSC, but like we both got MSC. Yeah. [01:04:50] Um, and he went through the kind of the old grandfather clause type thing. And [01:04:55] obviously he, you know he’s, he’s a star in that sense. I, I [01:05:00] could have looked at doing that, but I just thought to myself it cost [01:05:05] a lot of money. What are the what’s my motivation behind doing this? I don’t want [01:05:10] or need any more patience. I do exactly what I want to do without any [01:05:15] restrictions in terms of my clinical remit, because yeah, I do what I want to [01:05:20] do. Why am I really doing this? And for me and me personally, the reason would [01:05:25] be ego. And that’s something that I need to soothe.

Payman Langroudi: Discount. [01:05:30]

Sarovi Davda: Ego. I need to soothe versus like paying thousands of pounds to get some letters after [01:05:35] my name. And so that’s the reason I didn’t do it through that route. Or I could have to go back and do an [01:05:40] mql. And then I almost prefer to do it that way if I was going to, because then I get to learn. [01:05:45] But again, I’m I know I don’t want to pull out the violin, but, you know, I, I’m [01:05:50] a single income family. I’ve got other places to put my cash at the moment, and I just, [01:05:55] I feel like I’m doing what I do and I love it and I don’t need to do more.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the difference for [01:06:00] me? Yeah. What’s what’s the difference between a good periodontist [01:06:05] and a great periodontist.

Sarovi Davda: My [01:06:10] Phil’s words come into my head now. I was going to say communication because it depends [01:06:15] so much on I would say life style changes. [01:06:20] It’s a patient driven disease. Yeah. The more you can influence [01:06:25] the patient in making those lifestyle changes, the better results [01:06:30] you’re going to get. So I’d say almost like psychology. So I think me too.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:06:35] so there must be right in the training. Yeah. You’ve done some training. Hygienists do training. There must [01:06:40] be a big element of it. Or there should be a big element of it, which is behaviour change. [01:06:45] Yeah. Like how do you get people to change their behaviour. You know, how do you inspire that. [01:06:50]

Sarovi Davda: Okay. So you as an undergrad must have had psychology like Tim Newton was our psychology. [01:06:55]

Payman Langroudi: There wasn’t much of it.

Sarovi Davda: It wasn’t a huge amount. I don’t know if that’s [01:07:00] changed undergraduate training now. Do you know what’s interesting though, in all Known all postgraduate training. [01:07:05] I don’t generally see courses that are based in psychology [01:07:10] aimed at periodontists or general dental practitioners. Not many. Whereas [01:07:15] you get loads of courses on like, you know, surgical technique or, you [01:07:20] know, all the hands, all the stuff. Yeah, all the what we can do in our [01:07:25] hands. We don’t get that much psychology stuff on offer.

Payman Langroudi: I remember learning [01:07:30] loads on the cellular level of the, you.

Sarovi Davda: Know.

Payman Langroudi: The, the host response and interleukin [01:07:35] one and two and just loads on that. Yeah, loads and loads and loads on that. [01:07:40]

Sarovi Davda: But but not very much on psychology.

Payman Langroudi: Now when I say good or great, I [01:07:45] was kind of thinking of it from the referrers perspective as well, you know. So [01:07:50] I used to have a referral guy, uh, Pete Strand. Lovely. Lovely [01:07:55] guy. Um, and he used to there was a real value add to referring to him, [01:08:00] because there would be there’d be a patient who I want to put two crowns on. Um, [01:08:05] but I wasn’t 100% sure if I should on that on those perio [01:08:10] teeth, you know, and obviously I’m doing my root planing whatever, but just not not realising, not knowing [01:08:15] for sure. Will those teeth be okay to put crowns on to, you know, for the patient to spend loads of money [01:08:20] putting crowns on. So I’d refer to Pete. Pete would treat the perio and the patient would come back [01:08:25] saying, I want crowns on those two, please. Yeah. He would he would handle that part of the conversation. [01:08:30] Um, yeah. And I would think that’s a massive value add, right?

Sarovi Davda: I didn’t even [01:08:35] think about it that way. So the reason I had this conversation is because my, my MSC was in restorative dental practice, [01:08:40] and then the thesis was on Perry. Right. So I didn’t even think about the fact that I’m adding value [01:08:45] in that way. I just feel like I’m so obsessed with giving value to the patient, and I didn’t [01:08:50] think about it from the referees point of view. And having this conversation is I do. [01:08:55]

Payman Langroudi: Have referring often.

Sarovi Davda: Right?

Payman Langroudi: You have to bear that in mind.

Sarovi Davda: So I do personally, I can’t stop myself. [01:09:00] There’s something a something a bit compulsive about making an entire treatment plan for the patient. So because I’m doing.

Payman Langroudi: The. [01:09:05]

Sarovi Davda: Restorative. So what I do. Yeah. No, no. Yeah. So I do full mouth periapicals. And I’m obliged [01:09:10] to diagnose and communicate any disease I see. Right. So I end [01:09:15] up telling the patient, both in verbal and written form, every disease [01:09:20] I’ve seen and communicating that to the patient and, and the dentist informing [01:09:25] them of that and the treatment. I do tend to do that and overrun [01:09:30] with my time and admin, just because I feel like it’s both my duty and my compulsion [01:09:35] as a perfectionist. So and I and I just love what I do as well. So that’s part of what I do. [01:09:40] But, you know, our thinking, one of the values I think, okay, on a personal level that I add as a someone [01:09:45] treating your patient perio, I cannot tell you the number of times [01:09:50] that the dentist has come back to me saying, oh my gosh, like their mouth has changed. [01:09:55] But it’s not just for the sake of one round of treatment. So the way I way I treat Perry and I [01:10:00] always have is I take them through. As per S3 guidelines. But I’ve been doing it for years. A really [01:10:05] long oral hygiene. Phase so they don’t get to step two when I’m doing professional debridement [01:10:10] for about three months.

Sarovi Davda: And that’s because I’m seeing them again and again and again. [01:10:15] And it’s like PT sessions where they get into a really long [01:10:20] term habit of knowing what they need to do. And I drive home [01:10:25] exactly why. I mean, my patients go out knowing all about biofilm disruption. They know [01:10:30] it’s not about biofilm removal, biofilm killing or bacterial. They know the ins and outs of the [01:10:35] the stuff they know about mouthwash washing over it doesn’t destroy it. They really have an understanding. [01:10:40] And so I find that if you release patients into the wild [01:10:45] of GDP with a long term aspect and engagement in, [01:10:50] in controlling it, not just for like get them cleaned up, get them there, [01:10:55] you know, pockets below four and then deal with them. But it’s like a changed patient. [01:11:00] I feel like that’s not just value for the patient, but for the GDP, then has to deal with it on the [01:11:05] other side for the rest of their lives. If they are more, if they’re more educated, more engaged, [01:11:10] and they know it’s down to them and them alone, then that’s infinitely better for the the [01:11:15] Dental future as opposed to just quick fix. Out you go. Yeah, [01:11:20] that’s one of the things I think add value that adds value.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t want to be too reductive about it. [01:11:25] Yeah, but let’s reduce it down to pay.

Sarovi Davda: Pay. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Does it pay to [01:11:30] be an expert witness more than it pays to?

Sarovi Davda: If you do it quicker than I do a [01:11:35] referral? Oh, I’m not sure. Okay. Does it pay?

Payman Langroudi: I guess it pays, [01:11:40] but does it pay well?

Sarovi Davda: I, I it depends [01:11:45] how quickly you churn out reports, I’d say. Then it can pay very well. So [01:11:50] if you’re doing like a really simple personal injury trauma case patient [01:11:55] comes in. Okay, so patients had a road traffic accident, a number of different [01:12:00] things going on on their body. Not our business. Chips tooth. Easy [01:12:05] as you have a pro forma report. You’ve done one before. You know everything’s in it. [01:12:10] You change a few things. You could churn one out and about, see them for like a 15 minute exam, [01:12:15] take an x ray photograph, bang out report in what, an hour? Yeah, [01:12:20] two. And you could charge how much? £895. [01:12:25] £1,200, something like that.

[TRANSITION]: Not bad.

Sarovi Davda: Really good. Right. [01:12:30] Especially if you’re an associate. Giving 50% 45.

Payman Langroudi: Of those would be nice wouldn’t.

[TRANSITION]: It.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. [01:12:35] Okay. So that’s a really easy as in terms of that’s a good turnover. Yeah. For me the way that [01:12:40] I reports when it comes to perio and I’m looking at potentially 15 years worth of data, I [01:12:45] wouldn’t necessarily say it’s a good earner the way I operate. You’d get [01:12:50] people like but is it like saying totally different? He was like, I [01:12:55] can get you down to 50% of the time you’re spending on reports. I really [01:13:00] pour a lot of effort and work into my reports, and I wouldn’t say it’s fantastic, but [01:13:05] I get to work. I get to wake up at ten, start 11, take an hour’s lunch [01:13:10] break, do a couple hours here, work on a Sunday in my pyjamas for that. I [01:13:15] think it’s awesome, you know. And so it’s how much of your time.

Payman Langroudi: Is doing [01:13:20] the legal side and how much of your time is doing actual patients?

Sarovi Davda: 5050 at [01:13:25] the moment.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, really?

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. Is that much.

[TRANSITION]: And and probably my clinical will increase [01:13:30] when I go 5050.

Payman Langroudi: Income wise as well. Or do you still make more being a dentist?

Sarovi Davda: No, I [01:13:35] still make more being a dentist. Oh, yeah. I still make more to being a dentist, because I don’t take on [01:13:40] as many cases as I could. If I churn them out super quick and I’m [01:13:45] sure I could get my my hourly rate better.

Payman Langroudi: And there’s a, there’s a shortage of periodontists. [01:13:50]

Sarovi Davda: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a shortage of periodontal legal [01:13:55] experts as well?

Sarovi Davda: Massive massive shortage.

Payman Langroudi: So you could literally double if [01:14:00] you speed it up.

Sarovi Davda: You.

Payman Langroudi: Could.

Sarovi Davda: The thing is okay, so I tried putting up my prices and I have put up my prices and I’ve [01:14:05] still got uptake and I’m still I’m still saying no to cases. So at the moment my the demand [01:14:10] for instruction is, is more than I can take. So I’m turning down cases. [01:14:15] So I have put my price up. But there’s also a ceiling on it I found. So I can’t [01:14:20] just simply put it up to whatever the hell I want, because there may [01:14:25] not. There’s only a finite amount of money in the case to be able to dish out. So [01:14:30] yeah, there is there is a ceiling. I’ve, I found yeah. [01:14:35]

Payman Langroudi: There’s one other subject I want to talk about is um, recently Victoria [01:14:40] Samson was on diary of a CEO.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And from my perspective, [01:14:45] I thought, number one, well done for getting the profession on that platform. Number [01:14:50] two. The number of people who are going to be brushing their teeth a lot better now because of everything [01:14:55] that went on in that one. But there was a significant backlash from, from [01:15:00] Periodontists, um, about sort of I think some [01:15:05] of them were saying that, that she was sensationalising it. But, you know, it’s a sensational platform. [01:15:10]

Sarovi Davda: That’s going to say. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, so some were saying, oh, to fill up her clinic. [01:15:15] She said whatever she wanted to which I know that’s not the kind of person she is, but I, you know, I found myself [01:15:20] defending her, but I did find a bunch of eminent periodontists who [01:15:25] were, you know, pretty angry about the whole thing. What is [01:15:30] your view of what happened? Like, did you you listened?

Sarovi Davda: Yes, I listened, and [01:15:35] I can understand both sides in the sense that, okay, when I first [01:15:40] heard it, some of the things I did feel. Ooh, we haven’t yet got the evidence [01:15:45] for that or that, you know. So there was that that perfectionistic side of item. It may be not perfectionistic, [01:15:50] but that side the part of me that revolted in the sense [01:15:55] that, okay, that’s not quite right. You know, my not quite right thing. Yeah. And there’s [01:16:00] some truth in that. Of course, you know, we haven’t yet got the evidence out there to do saliva testing, which [01:16:05] will tell us everything. Otherwise we’d all be doing it right. But I found [01:16:10] that she came across as such an amiable, which [01:16:15] is no small feat when it comes to dentistry. People don’t like our profession. Full stop. We [01:16:20] are not an amiable profession. So to come across as a young, dynamic, enthusiastic, [01:16:25] um, amiable, someone you know, someone [01:16:30] in a profession, and you can pick on the little bits that weren’t quite right. [01:16:35] Of course you are. Of course you can. There was a lot that she said that was, and drew [01:16:40] attention to the connections between essentially the body and perio, that if we [01:16:45] can get people more interested, I think that’s fantastic. I just [01:16:50] think if you’re looking at the overall benefit versus kind of, it’s not even a [01:16:55] risk benefit.

Sarovi Davda: But if you’re looking at the good versus the not quite right, [01:17:00] I just think overall she I think overall she did a great thing for the profession. [01:17:05] Me too. I do. And I think that the other thing that’s really important that she’s also said [01:17:10] is that that is an interview where you cannot see the edited version. I think it’s there. [01:17:15] It may well be that, you know, there were times where she qualified that [01:17:20] this is there’s one study that’s come out. There’s one this there’s growing evidence [01:17:25] base. There may well have been a caveat to many things that she said that would just [01:17:30] edit it out. So it appears as if it’s fact, because that is much more, you know, of course [01:17:35] people want to hear dramatic headlines, don’t they? So we could have had just had the headlines [01:17:40] without the caveat that came with it. So I’d like to think that I was emotionally generous enough to to [01:17:45] give her the her the benefit of the doubt. But if I look at the overall good versus [01:17:50] disrepute, let’s say it’s the profession has been brought into overall much. Yeah, she’s I think she’s [01:17:55] shone a light on something that will just, if anything, spark people’s interest in engagement [01:18:00] in improving their health.

Payman Langroudi: I think about it right, is that, you know, um, the evidence base and [01:18:05] what that means, you know, what does it mean that the evidence base doesn’t show that I had Avi Banerjee [01:18:10] sitting. Sitting where you’re sitting?

Sarovi Davda: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I.

Sarovi Davda: Lovely guy.

Payman Langroudi: I asked him how long, [01:18:15] how long between a breakthrough and that going into the evidence [01:18:20] base, inverted commas or being taught on MSC programs all over the world, he [01:18:25] said 25 years, something like that, really?

Sarovi Davda: 25. Yeah, yeah, yeah, really long time.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:18:30] so, so if the evidence base today of, you know, multicenter, double [01:18:35] blind clinical trials doesn’t show some of the things that someone says, we [01:18:40] have to bear in mind that that evidence base is almost 25 years old. Almost. [01:18:45] And I’m not being silly about it. Of course. Of course. Someone put out a paper yesterday that [01:18:50] we can all read and sew, sew.

Sarovi Davda: Sew. I completely agree that essentially what let’s say Victoria [01:18:55] Samson, as we’re taking her as example, what she’s saying could actually be be the go [01:19:00] to the standard way of approaching things, because we have so much evidence in 25 years time. And she might just [01:19:05] be, you know, ahead of her game. But I think that’s where the caveats are important. [01:19:10] The saying. So, for example.

Payman Langroudi: And she may not it may be incorrect.

Sarovi Davda: That’s [01:19:15] correct. That’s where it needs to be qualified that there is emerging evidence. This is what I practice because [01:19:20] I really believe that this is the way forward. As of yet, there isn’t enough evidence to to show that we should [01:19:25] all be practising this way. But you know where I could really identify with that? And I was sharing with you earlier [01:19:30] when we’re talking casually that when and I mentioned Phil, our Graham Smith, both presidents [01:19:35] of the British Society of Periodontology in their time and things, um, they were considered mavericks, [01:19:40] as was their mentor mental. Who’s you know, Bernie Keyser? Yeah. [01:19:45] The Eastman. And when he was back in the day, this is over 30 years [01:19:50] ago teaching that biofilm was kind of the most instrumental trigger. [01:19:55] And it was all about disruption, the biofilm. When he was teaching that he was so [01:20:00] shunned that he had to do in secret. It was like the secret society. Then Phil was [01:20:05] given, um, a voice at the annual conference, the BSP. And [01:20:10] when he spoke and he showed a radiograph of having, leaving, leaving behind inadvertently [01:20:15] or much to his dismay, because he tried so hard a bulk of calculus [01:20:20] around a tooth. And lo and behold, there was still in bony infill in the defect [01:20:25] there, and no pocketing. So he said, how can I possibly justify going in with surgery and treating this [01:20:30] when I’ve got all the clinical parameters of health? This pocket’s not even this.

Sarovi Davda: Sorry. No pocket, not even bleeding. [01:20:35] I’ve got bony infill, bulk of calculus. And he was then given the feedback from [01:20:40] generally positive. But there was one very eminent famous [01:20:45] professor teaching actually in one of the London teaching hospitals, who wrote down [01:20:50] on his feedback. This person should not be given any public podium to ever speak again. [01:20:55] And there was a controversial debate going on outside the thing and what he was [01:21:00] saying and practising for 25 years, of which I also basically I gave it a whirl [01:21:05] when I went to his course. I spoke to him, I gave it a whirl, and I found that I [01:21:10] actually got the most phenomenal results in doing a what’s now accepted as S3 guidance [01:21:15] and evidence through the roof. A prolonged oral hygiene phase. Optimising patient [01:21:20] risk factors, modifying them, going for the oral hygiene. I got the most phenomenal results I’d ever [01:21:25] had in practice, so I thought, why would I not do this? And I was on board, but [01:21:30] it was still very controversial. He was considered a maverick until he wasn’t 25 [01:21:35] years in the making. So in that sense, I can really identify [01:21:40] with the Victoria Sampson this world. But again, like I said, it just needs to be clarified [01:21:45] and that this is not universally accepted.

Sarovi Davda: Here is the evidence [01:21:50] I’m relying upon. But evidence based dentistry, everyone goes to, oh, it’s clinical trials [01:21:55] and it’s meta analysis and systematic reviews. When you look at the definition of evidence [01:22:00] based dentistry, it’s not about just the science. It’s the marrying up [01:22:05] of patient centred clinical expertise and the [01:22:10] latest and best quality evidence. It’s those three things. And if I’m finding I get better [01:22:15] results doing one thing in my hands than I was before, and that serves [01:22:20] the patient because the way I was practising didn’t involve local anaesthetic initially. I was doing the whole [01:22:25] thing from patients cleaning subgingival in their pockets and therefore [01:22:30] reducing inflammation didn’t require the I mean, patients were having the most comfortable debridement [01:22:35] you could ever think and the best results. And I’ve changed my view slightly from, you know, [01:22:40] adapting Mint’s techniques and things. But why would I not want [01:22:45] to do that and advocate that? And when I’m then sharing it publicly, simply [01:22:50] say, this is what I do in my hands. And it is backed by this evidence because there was evidence [01:22:55] dating back from Battiston et al, showing that, you know, we’re rubbish at actually removing calculus. So how [01:23:00] big a part of the picture is it? If you can do that, then sort of. [01:23:05] There is a place. That’s what I’m trying to say. There is a, there is a place.

Payman Langroudi: There would never be any progress would [01:23:10] it, if, if.

Sarovi Davda: If we didn’t try.

Payman Langroudi: Things, we wouldn’t try.

Sarovi Davda: Things. Well, yeah. As long as there’s no harm [01:23:15] to patients at the other thing as well, you know, if it’s working as well or better than what [01:23:20] you’re doing before and there’s less risk, then it’s hard to then in some ways [01:23:25] argue with the with those three things patient centred, you know, because again, the other thing that Victoria [01:23:30] Sampson, I mean, and I shouldn’t, shouldn’t necessarily bring her personally into it, but if I’m, if I’m [01:23:35] charging, let’s say double, but it’s not evidence based. Again, that’s a conversation I need to [01:23:40] have with a patient. So if I was using, let’s say, laser and all the evidence shows that it’s [01:23:45] no better than when you’re doing your standard debridement, I need to have a conversation with [01:23:50] the patient saying, look, I think this works in my hand. This is how I’m going to justify A, B or [01:23:55] C. It is double the amount. The evidence doesn’t actually show. It’s better. Do you still want to go ahead with it? That’s [01:24:00] a conversation that needs to be had. So you know.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Documented to.

Sarovi Davda: Documented [01:24:05] to of course. Yeah. Keep yourself out of court.

Payman Langroudi: We’re coming to the end of our time. But I’m gonna go [01:24:10] to the darker part of the pod.

Sarovi Davda: The darker part. Okay. [01:24:15] Let’s talk about the stakes. Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Clinical errors.

Sarovi Davda: Is it really the darker part? [01:24:20] I think it’s the light, you know? That’s. It’s through the cracks that the light. Light seeps in. Right? [01:24:25] That’s the thing.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind if I say clinical error. Yeah. That you made that [01:24:30] the rest of us can learn from so that we can all learn from each other’s mistakes rather than.

Sarovi Davda: Okay, loads [01:24:35] of clinical errors that you can learn from. Um, okay, that’s slightly different [01:24:40] because I’ve made clinical errors now. I mean, I remember in year I [01:24:45] so overly, enthusiastically prepared and filled a molar, [01:24:50] thank God or not, thank God. It was on the husband of my dental nurse that literally looked [01:24:55] like some sort of mushroom or tree. Palm tree had fungi from the apex. [01:25:00] Horrific. I don’t even know how that poor man. I’m so sorry. Wherever you are. Didn’t experience, [01:25:05] like, severe jaw pain. That was what happened. That was one for the Annals [01:25:10] of Dentistry. No. Do you know what? He was right. This thing is so damn [01:25:15] forgiving, isn’t it? So that was horrific. Yeah. Um. Another one. [01:25:20] And I’ll always remember this. I can literally picture her face right now. So [01:25:25] this is actually relevant. Lower 2 to 2. I cannot remember how much bone they [01:25:30] lost, but it was there was bone loss but really motivated patient. And [01:25:35] in the end what happened, what happened is I ended up extracting that lower tooth, [01:25:40] thinking I was doing the best job, you know, since sliced bread of putting an adhesive bridge on the three [01:25:45] from the 3 to 3. And she came back and it was it looked fine. It functioned fine. It wasn’t [01:25:50] something kind of wrong with it as such. But she said, I wish I’d never [01:25:55] taken those teeth out. So worst decision I’d ever made. And I guess now with everything [01:26:00] that I know about prognosis. Yeah, I regret you can’t [01:26:05] ever put teeth back that you’ve taken out. But you can take teeth out that then end up going down the pan. [01:26:10] And that patient will lose their teeth with a different spirit.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Then [01:26:15] it’s a good point.

Sarovi Davda: If they, you know, had at least given it a shot. That’s actually a quote from [01:26:20] who’s the famous Italian Maurizio Zanetti. Yeah, yeah. They’ll [01:26:25] lose in a different spirit. And if not, and he actually finishes it off by I better call my lawyer. Um, [01:26:30] that’s that quote. But so that was really bad. There’s a very funny, [01:26:35] regrettable, but I’m not sure about faux pas like preventable mistake. But, um, [01:26:40] I had a wonderful, wonderful patient. This is a bit funny, but not. [01:26:45] Yeah, not um, he had very sadly over Covid, suffered from [01:26:50] cancer. And I was told by my nurse that, oh, you know, he’s [01:26:55] come back. He’s, he’s had cancer treatment. And I said to him, I said, oh my gosh, [01:27:00] I am so sorry that, you know, you suffered this. [01:27:05] And he said, yeah, we had to miss our planned trip to Japan and everything. And I said, [01:27:10] I go and I never use this terminology. I go, God, what a [01:27:15] bummer. And he said, he goes, yeah, literally it was anal cancer. [01:27:20]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Sarovi Davda: And I literally.

Sarovi Davda: Wanted the ground to swallow [01:27:25] me up. But he found the funny side of it. Lovely, lovely, lovely guy. Yes. [01:27:30] That was not. That was not ideal.

Payman Langroudi: I like that you gave three totally different situations. [01:27:35] I mean, I’m going to let you off. Normally I want something that went wrong, that then [01:27:40] the patient. It didn’t go well with that patient as well. But, but but I’m happy. I’m happy [01:27:45] with what you’ve given me there.

Sarovi Davda: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Final question. Fantasy [01:27:50] dinner party.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. So I thought about this, and [01:27:55] I’m not sure it’s a fantasy, actually, but it’s just like, who would I have? And I thought about it, and this is [01:28:00] what came to me, which is very weird, but okay, I chose [01:28:05] I chose Jesus.

[TRANSITION]: Jesus.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. Jesus, I, I am very [01:28:10] spiritual. I love like I’m not actually even a born Christian, but I thought really [01:28:15] any enlightened being. But Jesus is pretty popular, right? So I’d have Jesus, [01:28:20] I would have the Dalai Lama and I’d have Donald Trump. [01:28:25]

[TRANSITION]: Oh.

Sarovi Davda: Okay.

[TRANSITION]: And there’s a reason behind this. Go on, go on, go on. So?

Sarovi Davda: So [01:28:30] I just said, I find, like, being around [01:28:35] really enlightened human beings, and [01:28:40] you can’t really get much more enlightened than Jesus and Dalai Lama. I find that even [01:28:45] by osmosis, would they not even say anything? There’s something that I [01:28:50] gain, but especially when they start talking, I think it’ll be very interesting to simply observe, [01:28:55] like listen, to learn the conversation that goes on between those three. And [01:29:00] do you know if it even did a little bit of good by [01:29:05] one of the most powerful leaders in the world at the moment, just [01:29:10] so can a little bit of whatever these two have to offer. That’s a great thing, [01:29:15] right? So it benefits not just it’s more than me in that in that room, but it might [01:29:20] benefit a whole lot of other people. And you know what? It would be so wonderful to see [01:29:25] how enlightened human beings manage [01:29:30] conversation where, you know, if I’m like, [01:29:35] pissed off with somebody, I might start going into like very unhelpful behaviours, right? Because I’m a human being [01:29:40] and I’m triggered and you name it, but I just don’t imagine that would happen. So the modelling [01:29:45] that would go on for dealing with and adversarial [01:29:50] people or circumstances or, or just political [01:29:55] debate, it would be so interesting to see how that was handled from [01:30:00] an observer’s perspective.

[TRANSITION]: It’s interesting.

Payman Langroudi: That’s why I’ve never had something like that before. That’s very [01:30:05] interesting.

Sarovi Davda: Okay. Very weird.

[TRANSITION]: I know you.

Payman Langroudi: Said before, you said you’re spiritual. You said you do [01:30:10] like a prayer here and there.

Sarovi Davda: Here and there.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: What is your sort of, you [01:30:15] know, religious or your relationship with God or whatever, but how [01:30:20] would you characterise that?

[TRANSITION]: Um.

Sarovi Davda: Deep and wide. [01:30:25] How is my relationship? That’s how to explain it. It’s like. There [01:30:30] isn’t a day that goes by where I don’t touch in with God or whatever you want [01:30:35] to call it. It’s like everyone’s God is different. I don’t think there’s.

[TRANSITION]: A set like.

Payman Langroudi: A prayer.

[TRANSITION]: Like a.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. So every day [01:30:40] I say the serenity prayer.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Sarovi Davda: And. I [01:30:45] say a couple of prayers that like literature that I’ve read [01:30:50] about, I suppose, like the laws of life that, you know, God has not given [01:30:55] me the right to control another human being. And that kind of sets me into this place of detachment. [01:31:00] And just I think one of my roles of as a human being [01:31:05] is through whatever God given gifts I’ve been given is to be of [01:31:10] service. So to kind of like just before this, you know, I, um, it would be like, [01:31:15] whatever comes out my mouth, may I be a vessel for, like, some good stuff, basically. [01:31:20] That’s it. And whether I, I think whether you believe in God or not, it could be the universe. It could [01:31:25] be like an energy. It doesn’t really matter. I don’t think there’s a prescriptive way of [01:31:30] looking at a higher power God, universe, creator, whatever you want to call it him, her [01:31:35] they. But just something that is more than just me, [01:31:40] that connects every single one of us a little bit, like, you know, fungi. [01:31:45] Yeah, the interconnectedness of all. And if that energetic goodness [01:31:50] can be transmitted in some way and touched even one [01:31:55] human being, that’s awesome. That’s really cool.

Payman Langroudi: That’s really [01:32:00] nicely put. Thank you. Because I really struggle with the whole spiritual side until I realised that [01:32:05] it’s the nature of it that you can’t describe it.

Sarovi Davda: I [01:32:10] think you can be.

[TRANSITION]: I mean, you describe you described it though, without.

Sarovi Davda: Believing in spirituality.

Payman Langroudi: You described [01:32:15] it very, very well there. Yeah. But normally if you ask someone about, you know, what does spirituality or spirituality [01:32:20] mean to you? I don’t know. The answers are just very. But. But then I realised very [01:32:25] late in the day that it is the nature of spirituality that it’s not possible [01:32:30] to describe it in simple one plus one equals two terms. That’s the nature of it. That’s what we’re discussing, [01:32:35] something that isn’t so black and white and that that doesn’t change [01:32:40] my position on it. But that was really beautiful what you just said.

[TRANSITION]: Really beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: Final question. [01:32:45]

[TRANSITION]: Hmm.

Payman Langroudi: Deathbed.

Sarovi Davda: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Three pieces of advice for friends and family. [01:32:50]

Sarovi Davda: Okay, so I when I was asked this originally, I didn’t realise it was three. So I [01:32:55] definitely have one that might cover all. So my loved ones on their deathbed, [01:33:00] I would say to my girls. Listen [01:33:05] to the quiet voice within that guides [01:33:10] you. Make space for it. And that’s kind of it. [01:33:15] And I’ll tell you why. There’s only really one piece. Because for me to advise [01:33:20] any other human being on kind of potentially what to do, what to think, what to believe is [01:33:25] simply from my history, my beliefs, my traumas, [01:33:30] my colourings, whatever. So actually, the only person that the advice is [01:33:35] right for is me. I’m not qualified to really give any advice [01:33:40] to any other human being, because I genuinely believe we all have that inner knowledge within. [01:33:45] Every single one of us had knows what is right for us [01:33:50] in any given moment. But I can certainly, as a human being, identify with [01:33:55] drowning out that voice, with societal norms, with the things I’ve mentioned, [01:34:00] with just being too busy or too loud. But personally, when [01:34:05] I get really quiet and I listen to that whisper and give it some volume [01:34:10] that, you know, the talking is of, again, a spiritual being. My inner child, [01:34:15] whatever it may be, I already know what’s right, so I’d be that.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:34:20] like the way you talk about this stuff. You should maybe go into that stuff a bit more. [01:34:25]

[TRANSITION]: Maybe I should.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful.

[TRANSITION]: Really beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much for doing it. Thanks [01:34:30] for coming all the way.

Sarovi Davda: Thank you so much for having me.

[VOICE]: This is Dental [01:34:35] Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [01:34:40] leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, [01:34:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, [01:34:50] guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you [01:34:55] both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our [01:35:00] guests has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of [01:35:05] it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who [01:35:10] you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget [01:35:15] our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] Enlightened Online Training.com to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time whitening Underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get [00:00:30] to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:40] Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome wiggler [00:00:45] on to the podcast. Barb, I’ve known you for years and years. Absolutely, yeah, it must be [00:00:50] 15 years by now. Would have thought so. Yeah, well, longer, maybe longer actually. Originally a b [00:00:55] c d stuff. Yeah. So that was. Oh It’s above. Above. [00:01:00] It’s got two practices right now. Natural smiles in both Leicester and Corby. [00:01:05] Yes. And I often tell this story in your absence, but I’ve been to a lot [00:01:10] of practices a good thousand and the, the, the [00:01:15] welcome I got at your Leicester practice, I don’t think [00:01:20] I’ve ever had as good a welcome as that anywhere. And you can imagine the different types [00:01:25] of responses that I’ve had when I turn up sometimes. And no [00:01:30] one even looks up. Yeah. Happens. Yeah. And I don’t blame the people sometimes, [00:01:35] you know, sometimes not enough humans. Right. Not enough staff, you know, and you know, someone’s busy [00:01:40] typing or something. And I’m standing there and then maybe they’ll look up quickly and then I’ll say, I’m [00:01:45] Langroudi from enlightened. And they just sort of point to somewhere to sit down, whereas [00:01:50] in natural smiles. Listen, I don’t know if I came at a particular time where you had particularly brilliant [00:01:55] staff or whatever it was. Yeah, but it was years ago.

Payman Langroudi: Number one. [00:02:00] I mean, nowadays everyone’s on to this. Yeah. But years ago, it was a good I’m [00:02:05] thinking maybe eight years ago I would about way before, soon after we’d [00:02:10] opened. Yeah. Way before Covid. And someone jumped up and opened the door for [00:02:15] me. Doctor Langroudi. We’ve been expecting you. How are you? What kind of coffee [00:02:20] would you like? Let me sit you down here. I was like, what a place. And I wasn’t expecting [00:02:25] it in Leicester, to tell you the truth. And suddenly amazing coffee [00:02:30] turned up like, amazing. Better than Starbucks coffee showed it. And it was really [00:02:35] refreshing. Yeah. And the. The decor of the place, I [00:02:40] mean, above and beyond. It was something back then. I mean, I don’t know whether you’ve done it up now or [00:02:45] whatever it is. But back then it was really state of the art, beautiful, minimalist [00:02:50] kind of looking place. And I just thought, this guy is on another like another, [00:02:55] another stream to to most other dentists. Tell me, tell me, tell [00:03:00] me. You know what? What were you thinking? Were you. Were you thinking what people [00:03:05] think nowadays? Where they go? Oh, I’ve had a great experience in the four four seasons in Abu [00:03:10] Dhabi. I’m going to try and recreate that here. Well, firstly.

Bhavnish Waghela: Thank you for inviting me. That’s [00:03:15] the first thing. Um, I think the story goes back to, um. [00:03:20] When we opened our Corby practice. [00:03:25]

Payman Langroudi: Was that first.

Bhavnish Waghela: That was first. So that was to my daughter’s now 18. So that was 2007. [00:03:30] Um, it was a private squat. [00:03:35] I had NHS practice, which I was.

Payman Langroudi: Before.

Bhavnish Waghela: That, before that. And I basically [00:03:40] it was a choice of do we move the NHS to a larger premises. New [00:03:45] contract had just come in and I was like, oh, do I like this contract, do I, do I what do I do, do I grow [00:03:50] it had a property. Shall I use that and move everything [00:03:55] to it or not. And we thought let’s just separate the two. So we did. And I’d [00:04:00] heard of Paddy Lund at the time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: And I read his book. [00:04:05] Never met him. Um, and some of the things from that, the non-critical, [00:04:10] critical, non-essential side of things. And at the time, I remember going [00:04:15] to what was then pétrus the restaurant. The restaurant. Yeah. And [00:04:20] had a great meal. Just my wife and I. And [00:04:25] we’d gone for a lunch, but we’d ended up eating and staying. [00:04:30] Firstly with vegetarian. No eggs. Strict. And they’d [00:04:35] catered for us. That was over and above. And they didn’t. [00:04:40] There was no hurry to leave. We’d extended our welcome, I felt. [00:04:45] I didn’t feel. But they. I knew I had till about 6:00. Um. [00:04:50] And they just treated us really, really well. And something that I thought of at the time [00:04:55] was this is how dentistry should be done.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Bhavnish Waghela: Um. Michelin starred dentistry [00:05:00] be treated as a family member, be treated as a really [00:05:05] close friend. Um, and that little attention to detail. [00:05:10] So we did that with our, with the Corby. And then when [00:05:15] we opened Leicester we, we redid it.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you did it okay. It [00:05:20] looks good. Tell me about the training process that it takes to get [00:05:25] that level of, you know, service from your team.

Bhavnish Waghela: So [00:05:30] it was a joint effort. Um, obviously, I’m, I usually wear the clinical hat and my wife [00:05:35] and my, my practice manager, Carol Boyd, who’s from my Corby practice. Yeah. [00:05:40] Uh, we all work as a team, and she’s well travelled. [00:05:45] We’re well travelled, and we experience things from around the world, and we try and bring them to [00:05:50] the practice. So there are certain things that we had in our playbook. We wanted people to [00:05:55] be welcomed as they come in. We acknowledge eye contact is important. We acknowledge, [00:06:00] uh, treating somebody in the tone of voice. You [00:06:05] know, communication is not just what you say, how you say.

Payman Langroudi: It.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. Um, and how you say it’s even more important [00:06:10] than what you say. Yeah. So, um, it was firstly [00:06:15] a selection process in terms because obviously with a squat it was finding [00:06:20] the right person people. Um, and then [00:06:25] we didn’t have anybody bar one from a Dental background. [00:06:30] Um, only on purpose. So only one of the people that we had was had a dental background because [00:06:35] she was a TCO. So we had to have we wanted to have that, but reception was non dental. [00:06:40] Um, so that was the crux of it. Yeah. So [00:06:45] yeah that really helps. And then it was just because it was a squat. We had time during the [00:06:50] build of you know, I tend to learn from listening [00:06:55] rather than reading, so I’ll send them. I remember, I think [00:07:00] Chris Barrows introduced me to a video of, uh, the [00:07:05] Four Seasons or Ritz Carlton CEO talking about how to treat members [00:07:10] of the team and therefore how you treat the staff. So I sent the team there and we’d go through that and discuss that [00:07:15] and then try and embellish our patient journey that way. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:07:20] it must take constant retraining and sort of dotting [00:07:25] the i’s and crossing the T’s. I mean, it’s not a one time thing, is it, that.

Bhavnish Waghela: No, I think because we all develop, [00:07:30] don’t we? You know, I think, as you said quite rightly, back then, we [00:07:35] were very there were very few of us in dentistry doing that. And now everybody [00:07:40] seems to be doing that, which is great because ultimately who benefits the patients. [00:07:45] So yeah, it’s always a case of revisiting our journey, Revisiting how [00:07:50] we wear the touch points are with patients that really, really makes a difference.

Payman Langroudi: I think [00:07:55] I remember back then thinking the only other time I’d noticed that level of service [00:08:00] in a non West End practice, because in Western practice it’s quite easy. There’s so few humans [00:08:05] that you can pull it off. Right. Um but in a non West end setting [00:08:10] was Rahul’s practice in Hartford where again [00:08:15] way ahead of their time. It was just another feeling. You know, I think Laura Horton [00:08:20] was probably there at the time.

Bhavnish Waghela: Well, interestingly, we had used Laura Horton probably about [00:08:25] seven years when Laura had started doing her TCO training. We were one [00:08:30] of the first practices to have a come in and train us at the Corby practice. Oh really? So [00:08:35] we’d had that input prior to opening and then obviously changing [00:08:40] our workflow in Corby and then hence in Leicester as well.

Payman Langroudi: And so what ended [00:08:45] up happening to that NHS practice you sell it.

Bhavnish Waghela: So I sold it basically. Um, it was like [00:08:50] I was struggling because ultimately I sort of shot myself in the foot because I gave the patients [00:08:55] a choice. You can see me on the NHS or you can see me privately. And if anyone with the right mind, [00:09:00] they’re not going to see me privately. So what we then did was we said, okay, I will go private. [00:09:05] If you want to see me, you’ll have to see me privately here. And we had an associate who stayed on at [00:09:10] the NHS practice, and then we just sold it about a year later.

Payman Langroudi: And why? [00:09:15] What was the sort of the driver were you thinking? I want to fully focus on private dentistry.

Bhavnish Waghela: I [00:09:20] think, you know, we had I was in because it was really it was a squat [00:09:25] practice. So very few patients in the early. Yeah, sort of seven, eight months. Um, [00:09:30] so I was working with two hats on. So one day I’d be doing this and sometimes it would because [00:09:35] there were literally a mile and two miles a mile apart.

Payman Langroudi: Two patients.

Bhavnish Waghela: So the patients [00:09:40] could move in the same town. Um, and I would literally go to the NHS in the morning [00:09:45] and sometimes the private in the in the afternoon, and personally, some [00:09:50] will disagree. I don’t think it is possible for one person to do [00:09:55] both. I don’t think it works.

Payman Langroudi: I think I agree to do both [00:10:00] well.

Bhavnish Waghela: To do both well. So either you do it and the thing is this is pre current contract [00:10:05] or when I was doing NHS. Yeah to do NHS. Well the [00:10:10] old contract worked well. The new contract makes it more difficult because [00:10:15] of the restrictions and because of the hands being tied. But I feel even from a treatment planning point of [00:10:20] view, um, you know, quite a lot of our associates are in that halfway [00:10:25] house where they’re sort of coming out of NHS and into private dentistry, [00:10:30] and we like to sort of coach them in how to treatment plan. And [00:10:35] I find it extremely difficult to do both. I found it extremely difficult to as I said, right now we’re going to sell the NHS [00:10:40] and I can just focus on doing what I feel is right for my patients.

Payman Langroudi: And as far as [00:10:45] top tips, because both of them are squats, right? Yes. Top tips for a squat. I mean, it’s becoming [00:10:50] much more fashionable now to do squats because of the high price of practices, I [00:10:55] guess. But it’s a it’s a totally different way of working. I mean, number one, that first, [00:11:00] like you said, 7 or 8 months of working capital just to stay afloat. [00:11:05] Right?

Bhavnish Waghela: Yes, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: I think a lot of people don’t don’t remember that, you know, and I’d [00:11:10] say for anyone doing a business plan, I’m no expert on, on Excel sheets, but but, [00:11:15] you know, be very negative and very pessimistic about what’s going to happen [00:11:20] and have a good amount of money available just to get through that. First, I’d [00:11:25] say year and a half, just to get, you know, just to make it really difficult. Yeah. Um, [00:11:30] you know, be pessimistic 100%. Yeah. But then what else? I mean, [00:11:35] okay, count the pennies. Count the.

Bhavnish Waghela: Pennies.

Payman Langroudi: I well, it’s weird counting pennies [00:11:40] because you’re making this beautiful place that costs money, right?

Bhavnish Waghela: I think you all. I don’t think it’s possible [00:11:45] to. I’ll be quite honest. You know, I will [00:11:50] end even when it comes to buying a flippin watch. I will go to buy something [00:11:55] and end up spending more than my anticipated. So I did the same thing with the practice. Both. Both [00:12:00] practices. Um. I’m a sucker for sales. Um, so therefore. [00:12:05] And I like gadgets, so therefore I end up spending more than I should. But [00:12:10] now it’s a case of I’ve spent it. Um, and sometimes, I [00:12:15] mean, with the first one I did shortcuts. You know, I knew a friend of a friend who could do my plumbing rather [00:12:20] than getting everything to one builder at the time, which I should have done. I made shortcuts to save [00:12:25] corners. The second one, I didn’t do that. So second one, everything went to one one contractor. [00:12:30] And that made such a difference. Uh, so try not to take [00:12:35] shortcuts in the building works. I think it’s very easy to cut [00:12:40] corners financially Lee in the way a practice equipment, [00:12:45] certain equipment I you know I bought all singing, all dancing Sirona [00:12:50] chairs. Do I need them? No. Does it make me more efficient? [00:12:55] No. Do patients realise I don’t think my a deck chair in [00:13:00] my Corby practice? Patients prefer I get more comments about that than I do about comfortable.

Bhavnish Waghela: Comfortable? Absolutely. [00:13:05] So we tend to see things from our point of view rather than the patient’s point of view. Yeah. [00:13:10] So with certain things. So that’s probably where I would say that would be an area [00:13:15] where one could save, uh, business planning. When I open my copy practice, my business plan [00:13:20] was that where’s the wind going? What can I do? Banks were lending, I [00:13:25] had cash. So it was so much easier with the second one. More [00:13:30] competition. Uh, city. So very different in terms of [00:13:35] marketing budget, in terms of that initial cash to keep things [00:13:40] Going, um, but something that, [00:13:45] uh, and I think being a little bit more intuitive or ingenious, [00:13:50] should I say, with regards to marketing, um, or even how you [00:13:55] get cash coming in quickly. I had a conversation with Zach at the time, [00:14:00] and he was telling me how as an implant dentist, what he was doing is, [00:14:05] was sort of, uh, he was basically giving an implant. If you pay [00:14:10] for the implant, you get the crown for free. So you discount it, but you have to pay in full. [00:14:15] So that meant in the first sort of few months, we had patients paying [00:14:20] chunks of cash. Uh.

Payman Langroudi: It just it’s the lifeblood.

Bhavnish Waghela: Isn’t the lifeblood. [00:14:25] Exactly. Cash flow was, was was always a challenge and always will be a challenge in some practices. [00:14:30] Um, but I don’t think I really don’t think a [00:14:35] squat practice is for everybody.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Bhavnish Waghela: Um. I [00:14:40] think the idea of a squat. What people tend to do is they do [00:14:45] the maths. Oh, I can buy this one for this much, or I can set it up for less [00:14:50] than that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: And I think the pain points in both are different [00:14:55] because they are there for sure. But I think theoretically I mean I my [00:15:00] NHS one was not a squat obviously. Um, and that was so much easier. [00:15:05]

Payman Langroudi: So you probably haven’t got appetite for it. But let’s say you were going to open a third practice. [00:15:10] Now would you buy an existing business?

Bhavnish Waghela: I probably would. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Just to get you [00:15:15] past the initial idea of pain.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. Yeah. I would buy in. I would buy [00:15:20] an existing concern, which is doing well financially, which has [00:15:25] potential scope. Yeah. Yeah. Now that might be chair time scope. It might be physical scope. [00:15:30]

Payman Langroudi: Building scope.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah, it might be something else.

Payman Langroudi: Something going on.

Bhavnish Waghela: Right. Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:15:35] look, when I came to see you, I was really taken. One thing that kept sticking in my [00:15:40] mind was this guy is like a linchpin in Leicester. Like, [00:15:45] it felt like, you know, everyone or you know that a lot of the movers and shakers, [00:15:50] people who own what it was chains of things, chains of [00:15:55] petrol stations or something, something like that. And I remember you, I remember saying to you, oh, where’s [00:16:00] the best Indian restaurant? And you were like, oh, well, my friend owns all of them, and they’re there. And you just knew. [00:16:05] You knew the people. Yes. How important was that compared [00:16:10] to, you know, the way people think about it is I need this much money for marketing. I’m going to do some Google [00:16:15] ads and Facebook ads. You know, like I’d say it’s super, in your case, super [00:16:20] important.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. So my story is slightly different. Yeah. Um, I belong [00:16:25] to a Hindu sect, and we have our European headquarters [00:16:30] at the Neasden Temple, which some people have probably seen. Some of you may have seen.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’ve been there. Beautiful.

Bhavnish Waghela: So, [00:16:35] um, We have a guru and at the time of opening [00:16:40] the Leicester practice, we have a system where we all, if we’ve got a [00:16:45] tech we had, we were opening a temple in Leicester, really nice temple, large square footage [00:16:50] and I was part of the fundraising team and as a as an element of fundraising, [00:16:55] we all donate a figure to the temple. The thing off. Yes. [00:17:00] And I had paid my commitment. So [00:17:05] I had written a little note to my guru, who was in India at the time, and I said, [00:17:10] I’ve paid this. I have a business dental practice. [00:17:15] He knows he knows me quite well, and I’m thinking of leaving dentistry [00:17:20] and going into something else because I’ve had enough. Um, and [00:17:25] also in the same thing, it was, uh, should I donate some more? She [00:17:30] didn’t say donate more. His. He. In fact, there was a monk who happened to [00:17:35] be there. So they rang and they said, right, speak to him. And he said, open a practice in Leicester. I’m like, [00:17:40] God, you’ve just. And with me and my faith, I’ll do whatever [00:17:45] he says. There was no intention of doing a practice in Leicester.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I.

Bhavnish Waghela: See. So that [00:17:50] was the driver. The last time I had asked him a question about [00:17:55] something personally, it was about moving out the country. And [00:18:00] this was the third time I had asked him. And that third time I’d asked him, [00:18:05] which was sort of 2004 or something like that. He said, don’t [00:18:10] ask me again. Stay in Leicester. And there’s obviously something in it for, for, for me in that. [00:18:15] So when he said open a practice in Leicester I was like, okay, fine, we’ll start looking. [00:18:20] So we saw a few existing concerns, not much going on. And then the premises [00:18:25] that we have, um, is a retail two shops.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What was it before? [00:18:30]

Bhavnish Waghela: It was a mobile phone shop, but no, it was, it was more than a mobile phone shop, [00:18:35] though. Yeah, it was a mobile phone shop. But also they were the they were the first BlackBerry [00:18:40] centre in the UK. And when they moved from there to where [00:18:45] they are currently, it was the largest provider of e phone contracts in Europe, [00:18:50] in UK. So very, very large in terms of space as well for [00:18:55] us. So we have upstairs we have the whole building. Um and downstairs is the dental practice, upstairs is space [00:19:00] to do whatever with. Um so in terms of opening in Leicester. [00:19:05] Yeah, we have a lot of connections. I’ve been there for since nine. Yeah, pretty much. So schooling, [00:19:10] friends, temple, social life, in-laws, parents, [00:19:15] everybody.

Payman Langroudi: I’m interested in the faith point here in two [00:19:20] different ways. If you, for instance, when you ask this question and [00:19:25] this person says do X, do you unquestioningly [00:19:30] do X thinking this guy is a experienced human. [00:19:35] Or do you really think there’s some sort of supernatural? He’s he’s [00:19:40] got the answer. Number one. And number two. I bet [00:19:45] fully believing that this is good advice means that it’s almost like a [00:19:50] self-fulfilling prophecy, right? Because every time something’s going wrong, there’s something in your head goes. [00:19:55] But this was the advice I was given. So you push through challenges, you [00:20:00] know, you make bigger plans, knowing, thinking that it’s going to go right. So I’m interested [00:20:05] in, you know, your faith system here. And obviously, you know, all this everything I’m telling you, you know, [00:20:10] like, so are there times where you ever doubt it? Yes.

Bhavnish Waghela: I mean, [00:20:15] okay, so the answer to your first question is there’s an element of both. Firstly, our [00:20:20] guru who passed away in 2016. Sorry. [00:20:25] Um, we have uh, so our guru will announce [00:20:30] a the next one, a successor prior to them passing away. But [00:20:35] no one knows who it is and it’s sealed. So it’s a very large organisation. Um, [00:20:40] we just recently opened a temple. We we opened the world’s largest [00:20:45] Hindu temple in new Jersey on 210 acres. We’ve opened. Last year I [00:20:50] was there for the opening, a Hindu temple traditionally built in Abu Dhabi, [00:20:55] which some of our colleagues have been to. Um, so, you know, we’re good like that and we [00:21:00] do a lot of good for the community.

Payman Langroudi: So when you say guru, this is the global leader of that whole [00:21:05] organisation. Correct? How do you know him so well? Family.

Bhavnish Waghela: So I’ve been going to the temple as [00:21:10] as a child since I was about ten. Um, I [00:21:15] also went to become a monk myself. So after A-levels. So [00:21:20] around the A-level time, I thought, I don’t wanna do this, I want to become a monk. And my dad said, because [00:21:25] with with being a monk, you have the opportunity. Like getting married. Not [00:21:30] all marriages work. So in a similar way, not all monk hoods work. So it [00:21:35] was a case of, right, you’re going to become a monk. There is a bit of a stigma if you do come back, [00:21:40] but ultimately that’s your that’s your choice. So my dad said to me, if you go, I want you to get a degree [00:21:45] before you go or get some. Because if you do come back and you haven’t got anything, then [00:21:50] you’ve got nothing to fall back on. So between A-levels [00:21:55] and starting uni, I thought, let’s check it out. So we have a little we have a village in India. [00:22:00] Population of 600 people. That’s our global training centre for monks [00:22:05] went there. You have to wake up at 4:00. You have to then, you know, [00:22:10] do your daily things.

Payman Langroudi: Pray all.

Bhavnish Waghela: Day. Pray? No. You [00:22:15] are given a timetable. The timetable would consist of that. We have [00:22:20] a sow cows. So you go and clean the cows out. You feed the cows, [00:22:25] then you go and do cooking. You then maybe doing a scriptural [00:22:30] learning. You then have to read learn because I can’t. I could read [00:22:35] some Gujarati so I could read and write basic. So now then they teach [00:22:40] you, then Sanskrit and then Hindu philosophy, Western philosophy, all this sort of stuff. And [00:22:45] then it was quite a lot. And the most important thing is you have to cut ties [00:22:50] with family. Oh, like cut when you actually became [00:22:55] ordained, become ordained as a monk. And that was challenging. So I did that for 4 or [00:23:00] 5 weeks and said, no, this isn’t for me. So I came back. So as a result of all of these [00:23:05] historical events, events, I know our guru really well and [00:23:10] he knows me quite well. So, um, it’s a 1 to 1 type situation. [00:23:15]

Payman Langroudi: When you ask. Yes. And when he says, how much of that would you say is divine intervention [00:23:20] and how much of that would you say? He’s a very experienced person. He’s been asked lots of questions.

Bhavnish Waghela: I’d say. I’d say [00:23:25] about 70, 30, 3070 of it for me is divine and 30% [00:23:30] is experienced because he has. He gets I mean, in his life’s [00:23:35] time, he had written 750,000 letters.

Payman Langroudi: Ou. [00:23:40]

Bhavnish Waghela: Replied to from people asking him all sorts of questions [00:23:45] may not be even nothing, you know, whatever they may be. He’s visited hundreds of thousands, hundreds [00:23:50] and something thousand homes. He was guru from 1971 to when he passed away. [00:23:55] So, you know very well travelled. Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: Then. Okay, so then he says, do it. Then this [00:24:00] thing I’m saying about the self-belief you have when someone says that, did that play a role, is [00:24:05] that where you would turn when things were really bad or. Yes.

Bhavnish Waghela: Because again, going back to our [00:24:10] the philosophy in our sect and Hinduism is God [00:24:15] does everything for a reason. Now if you just think about that one fact, if you truly [00:24:20] believe that, then come what may, even if I’m having [00:24:25] a bad time.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a.

Bhavnish Waghela: Reason. It’s a reason [00:24:30] for it. If I’m having a great time, I’m having gratitude to him or [00:24:35] them. So therefore, uh, in times of strife [00:24:40] or in times of good, there’s always a, uh, belief [00:24:45] that this is for me and my my betterment.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t have to answer this. Yeah, but when [00:24:50] is it that you’ve most questioned your faith?

Bhavnish Waghela: Oh. [00:24:55] Actually, I [00:25:00] would probably say why. You know, I know [00:25:05] that. I know the theory. The theory is that God does things for me and my family. [00:25:10]

Payman Langroudi: Even when in mysterious ways.

Bhavnish Waghela: Mysterious ways. But when things aren’t right, [00:25:15] when things are going, are not going to plan. You think, why? Why me? And I [00:25:20] think that’s quite normal.

Payman Langroudi: When was.

Bhavnish Waghela: That? Um. So [00:25:25] soon after we opened Leicester, I said, like I said, [00:25:30] my my guru was the reason why we opened it to some extent. Yeah, yeah. Um, we opened [00:25:35] and it was like, oh, this isn’t as easy as I thought. Last time I did a squat, it was easy. This time it’s not [00:25:40] as easy. And that was you know, it’s stressful at times because there’s a lot more competition. [00:25:45] And you think I am doing what you ask me? Why is this not happening? That kind of thing. [00:25:50]

Payman Langroudi: And so cash flow crisis and things.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. It happens. Um, [00:25:55] and the challenges we have, you know, from an accounting point of view, they’re separate businesses. And so [00:26:00] it’s difficult to sort of transfer transfer from this or that or a third business or whatever it may be. So yeah. [00:26:05]

Payman Langroudi: But and how do you feel? How come you haven’t gone to three and four and six. Are you content with [00:26:10] two?

Bhavnish Waghela: It’s very interesting. All my friends, like you said earlier, you know, a lot of my friends [00:26:15] are, uh, multiple serial businesses. So, you know. [00:26:20]

Payman Langroudi: Hundreds of things.

Bhavnish Waghela: Chains of things? Yeah. Um, and.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:26:25] expect you could get access to cash, right?

Bhavnish Waghela: Of course I can.

Payman Langroudi: Like, you could raise £5 million tomorrow [00:26:30] if you wanted to.

Bhavnish Waghela: Easily. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s made you not?

Bhavnish Waghela: And it’s a case of I’m not [00:26:35] in it for the money. I don’t need, I don’t feel the money is my driver. Okay. [00:26:40] Um, I am comfortable. I have what we need. Um. I [00:26:45] am looking after the future, my family, and that’s all taken care of. Money’s [00:26:50] there, and money is accessible. However, I feel that I [00:26:55] am. There’s more to me than just the dentistry. [00:27:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: So there’s my the temple side of things. Yeah. My voluntary work [00:27:05] for that. Um, and as a parent, as a family man, I [00:27:10] think sometimes what.

Payman Langroudi: Happens is you.

Bhavnish Waghela: Spend time is spent with with with with them is more important. I’d rather [00:27:15] have time at home than at work.

Payman Langroudi: I like that. How old are your kids? [00:27:20]

Bhavnish Waghela: I’ve got one daughter. She’s 18, going through A-levels now. She had a maths mock today.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:27:25] yeah. Mine too. Mine too. Same age right? Yeah. What do you want to [00:27:30] do?

Bhavnish Waghela: Do you want to do architecture?

Payman Langroudi: Did you, did you want it to be a dentist?

Bhavnish Waghela: No.

Payman Langroudi: Like not. Not. Did you tell her to? [00:27:35]

Bhavnish Waghela: I didn’t want her to be a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Why not? It looks like. Seem to me as one of the most [00:27:40] successful dentists I know.

Bhavnish Waghela: I think I think the challenge. Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: Define [00:27:45] success how you like. Yeah, but I define it as someone who loves their job, good at their job, [00:27:50] and, you know, is living a good life. You seem you seem like [00:27:55] you’re crossing those those things, right? Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: I’m fortunate that I am. Yes, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: So then [00:28:00] why wouldn’t you want that for your daughter?

Bhavnish Waghela: Because I think what I find the biggest pain point for me is, [00:28:05] um, the business is reliant to some extent on me. [00:28:10] Yeah. If I want to. I’m not the kind of person that [00:28:15] will my failings or will go on holiday tomorrow. I will not [00:28:20] counsel patients at short notice. I don’t like doing that. I don’t like that happening to me. [00:28:25] So I like to live by those rules that I want people to live by with me. So [00:28:30] one of the things that I don’t like is I’m not able to live a semi-nomadic [00:28:35] life. Oh, I can’t work from home as easily as I would love to. And I like I’d [00:28:40] like for my daughter to have that independence geographically.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [00:28:45] it. That’s a good point.

Bhavnish Waghela: That’s it. That’s the one thing.

Payman Langroudi: Because, you know, I stopped practising [00:28:50] in 2012 completely. [00:28:55] And when you fully stop, you realise the things you used to love about [00:29:00] it and the things that you used to hate about it. And I used to love [00:29:05] humans. People don’t meet that many people these days. Right? But the thing that I [00:29:10] hated was what you just said. Turning up, having to turn, having to turn up. Yeah, I was [00:29:15] turning up. Turning up. Right now I’m turning up today. Yeah. It’s the having to having to turn up the relentless [00:29:20] nature of that in.

Bhavnish Waghela: My social circle. We meet regularly in [00:29:25] Leicester.

Payman Langroudi: Your buddies?

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah, yeah. And none of them have [00:29:30] to be, you know, if on a weekday we go out and I [00:29:35] have got home at later than I want to. Yeah, I have to [00:29:40] be in clinic ready to for the show to start come what may. [00:29:45] Every. They don’t have that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. So and I envy that to some extent. [00:29:50]

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting point man. It’s an interesting point. Let’s get back to your childhood. [00:29:55] Yes. What made you even look at dentistry in the first place? What kind of kid were you? Were you, like, a [00:30:00] studious?

Bhavnish Waghela: I was quite studious. I was very, I mean, strict parental [00:30:05] upbringing. Um, we lived in an area in, in Leicester called Oadby, [00:30:10] and I remember being. So I’m born in Africa, my parents about, [00:30:15] uh, Nairobi, Dar es Salaam. We lived in lived in Nairobi, so born in Dar es Salaam, moved to Nairobi, moved here when I was [00:30:20] about 3 or 4. Um, and then my dad was [00:30:25] we moved for economic purposes. My dad got a job here, so he [00:30:30] was working. I was schooling, and it was very much [00:30:35] a case of we are away from the Indian culture. We need to keep strict [00:30:40] Indian values, which which we did.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Sometimes even more strict than back home. Right. It’s [00:30:45] almost like.

Bhavnish Waghela: A.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, overcompensating thing.

Bhavnish Waghela: Overcompensating. Yeah. But the funny thing was that I [00:30:50] was one the area that we lived in just happened to be a very non-Indian [00:30:55] area. So I was one of three brown faces in the school.

Payman Langroudi: Was it Leicester.

Bhavnish Waghela: Leicester in Oadby [00:31:00] to get bullied a lot? Uh-uh, um, my dad made me do martial arts and I did loads [00:31:05] of taekwondo and really good. And there was a lot of sports, but [00:31:10] purely martial arts. Um, and then, um, with regards to dentistry, [00:31:15] I dentistry. I was quite studious, so I wanted to sort of pursue, you know, the traditional medicine, [00:31:20] law, dentistry in those days. Um, and my dad [00:31:25] didn’t, wasn’t pushing me into anything or parents weren’t. But again, going back [00:31:30] to the temple, we had some elders in our temple. Elders meaning someone [00:31:35] older than me, not old, old people. And they were recently qualified doctors [00:31:40] who were doing show jobs and stuff like that. Um, and they sort of put [00:31:45] me off doing medicine, basically.

Payman Langroudi: Junior doctors. Right?

Bhavnish Waghela: Totally put me off. So I [00:31:50] said, fine, I’ll do dentistry because it was the next best thing in a way. Um, so hence that’s why I did dentistry. [00:31:55] I fell into that. And also my dad, my dad had a business at the time, part time, where his [00:32:00] business partner’s son was a dentist. And I sort of saw him have a, you [00:32:05] know, a good life. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: What did your dad do?

Bhavnish Waghela: So he was a graphic designer. Um, [00:32:10] but he went into project management for a design company, mainly doing [00:32:15] point of sales for Rolex and car watch brands and jewellery [00:32:20] brands.

Payman Langroudi: In that generation that got up from East Africa. Africa [00:32:25] in general and came here. There’s something about that generation. The [00:32:30] ones that did that. Yes. Yeah. Because Africa is an interesting place in itself. [00:32:35] There’s a there’s a, there’s a can do thing about making it in Africa. [00:32:40] And then they brought that here. Yeah. And put the same. And I think there’s so many people [00:32:45] I’ve talked to good friends, people I went to school with as well that that generation just [00:32:50] had. It’s almost like, you know, I don’t know if you’ve seen Gary. Gary Vee. Yes. He talks about sort of the [00:32:55] the benefit of being an immigrant. Yeah. You know, the it’s an interesting [00:33:00] thing. So all right you decide dentistry. You turn up first day back. [00:33:05] Which year was it?

Bhavnish Waghela: 1992.

Payman Langroudi: Guys. Kings or [00:33:10] kings itself? Not guys.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So the same year as me?

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: 1990. [00:33:15] So what was your first day? Big city.

Bhavnish Waghela: First day. Big. I hated [00:33:20] it. Did you? I absolutely hated it for the reason. That one. I had just come back from India because, like [00:33:25] I said, I wanted to become a monk.

Payman Langroudi: You were monk.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah, yeah. Um, I was alien because [00:33:30] of that. Because I had mentally conditioned. I used to be strict vegetarian. In our sect, we don’t [00:33:35] don’t drink alcohol. We have no onions, no garlic. So it’s a case of. [00:33:40]

Payman Langroudi: Is it Jain?

Bhavnish Waghela: So it’s not it’s Swaminarayan.

Payman Langroudi: Similar.

Bhavnish Waghela: But in terms of the food. Yeah. Because everything [00:33:45] has an effect on it. You are what you eat kind of thing. Um, and then I [00:33:50] was in this town or this city, which was so much bigger, and obviously I’d been to London, but every time [00:33:55] I’d been to London, it was with my parents, or it was with people from the temple. So it was always Neasden, and [00:34:00] now I’m by myself living. I had a for some reason I missed my halls [00:34:05] application, so I was staying in Tooting Bec because I needed somewhere [00:34:10] that was That was self-catering.

Payman Langroudi: Miles away from stranded miles and miles.

Bhavnish Waghela: Away. Miles [00:34:15] away. It was like, I can’t remember what bus it was, but.

Payman Langroudi: It was self-catering for the night.

Bhavnish Waghela: For the food [00:34:20] purposes. So, um, that was bad.

Payman Langroudi: And did you find the course [00:34:25] a struggle? Everyone does to some extent.

Bhavnish Waghela: Initially, yes, because I didn’t do biology at A-level, so. So [00:34:30] it was like, oh my God, I the first time I failed an exam was or first time I had to reset [00:34:35] an exam was biochem.

Payman Langroudi: You know Sarge, you know Sarge, my partner, [00:34:40] we were sitting next to each other in, um, Cardiff and we looked down this microscope [00:34:45] and he goes, well, that’s muscle, isn’t it? And I was like, well, how do you know that’s muscle? [00:34:50] And he and his only thing he could say is I just do. Yeah. You know. And now I get it [00:34:55] in a way. Now I get it, you know, the way muscle looks. Yeah, yeah. But back then I was like, I just could not believe [00:35:00] that that was his answer. I just do.

Bhavnish Waghela: I totally get.

Payman Langroudi: It. Remedial [00:35:05] classes for biology A-level people who hadn’t done biology A-level.

Bhavnish Waghela: Okay. We didn’t have that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:35:10] I found it so hard, I found it.

Bhavnish Waghela: I found that a struggle.

Payman Langroudi: Um, did you take [00:35:15] to the clinical better?

Bhavnish Waghela: 100%. I, I also play the the Indian [00:35:20] drums. The tabla. Oh, yeah. And my dad was my. So my dad’s degree was fine art. So we’re quite an artistic [00:35:25] family. Aha. Um, so I’m quite good with my hands. Yeah. And therefore, the [00:35:30] clinical side of things was so much easier.

Payman Langroudi: And did you find a sort of a clique of Indians [00:35:35] that you got into? Yeah. That’s right.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. We still keep in touch. One of my best mates from Uni [00:35:40] Maori, he’s in Melbourne. Neera was in the same year as me. Anoop? Yeah. Anoop was. You’re [00:35:45] above me. Tiff was Europe. So that whole cohort, uh, we know quite well. I know quite well. [00:35:50] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then five years went by. Who was your first ever boss?

Bhavnish Waghela: So [00:35:55] I did, uh, in. Yeah. First [00:36:00] year I did it in a place called Horncastle, which is where it’s basically 20 miles [00:36:05] from Skegness. Oh, it’s a it’s a it’s a really small [00:36:10] town where there were two dental practices. The nearest one was Lincolnshire. Sorry, [00:36:15] Lincoln. Yeah. So there was no support clinically. My. My trainer [00:36:20] was brilliant. Um. Very supportive. He understood the [00:36:25] needs that I had clinically, emotionally, [00:36:30] socially kind of thing. So it was really good in that respect. Um, but [00:36:35] we had to get stuck in because there was nothing around us. Yeah. You know, wisdom teeth and [00:36:40] surgicals and everything.

Payman Langroudi: So what was the hospital that you to get? Oh, [00:36:45] I see, I see. I see.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. Lincoln. Because the whole it was, I was part of the Lincolnshire scheme. So [00:36:50] Jason Wong. Yeah. Was in my cohort.

Payman Langroudi: Right?

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Funny. [00:36:55]

Bhavnish Waghela: Mad.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, funny. All right. So then I guess you felt a bit isolated.

Bhavnish Waghela: Very much so. [00:37:00]

Payman Langroudi: Skegness.

Bhavnish Waghela: So the round trips. I basically from home [00:37:05] to Horncastle was 90 miles. So [00:37:10] I bought a house. I thought I’d stay there. I lived there six months, then commuted the rest because [00:37:15] it was just I had no. So I just there’s only so much time you could spend with your with your boss. [00:37:20] Right. So. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then you I guess.

Bhavnish Waghela: I did that.

Payman Langroudi: And then that year you [00:37:25] decided I’m coming back.

Bhavnish Waghela: I came back to Leicester. Um, I worked in my one [00:37:30] of my dad’s friends practice. Um, I was there for quite a while. Very NHS. [00:37:35] But my whole thing was doing good dentistry as best as [00:37:40] I possibly can. Um, because it was a case of trying to get [00:37:45] skilled.

Payman Langroudi: So do you remember, even in those early days, learning [00:37:50] things like. What is that guy your first boss doing really [00:37:55] well, and what is he not doing so well?

Bhavnish Waghela: He spoke to patients very well. [00:38:00] Yeah. You know, it wasn’t a case. You know, dentistry seems very much of a sales role at the moment Uh, [00:38:05] with with the kind of dentistry that we’re as a profession are going [00:38:10] into. So, in effect, you’re a glorified salesperson [00:38:15] trying to sell a treatment plan to a patient. And I [00:38:20] don’t like that. So when I was in my, um, [00:38:25] my boss was excellent in explaining treatments without [00:38:30] the need to oversell. Yeah. Yeah. And it was always about. It’s not about the money. [00:38:35] It’s about the patient. It’s always about the patient.

Payman Langroudi: And what about the way he was managing his practice, his staff? [00:38:40] The.

Bhavnish Waghela: So it was quite a homely atmosphere because it was literally [00:38:45] him. One hygienist and myself.

Payman Langroudi: Very friendly, very friendly. [00:38:50]

Bhavnish Waghela: Um, he lived above the practice. The practice.

Payman Langroudi: Was downstairs.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. That kind of thing. [00:38:55] Um, and it was really, really nice because it was a very friendly [00:39:00] atmosphere to work in.

Payman Langroudi: For that first boss is so major. Yeah. It makes such a such a difference. Sets you on a [00:39:05] particular trajectory. Yeah. What about your dad’s buddy? So you knew him well?

Bhavnish Waghela: So we I [00:39:10] knew him. We knew the family. Yeah. Um, and it was a larger NHS practice [00:39:15] in Leicester, so I worked there. And again, it was for me, it was like I was, I [00:39:20] was quite, I would say good at the clinical side of things. [00:39:25] And I was a little bit more on it compared to him because he.

Payman Langroudi: Was old timer. [00:39:30]

Bhavnish Waghela: Old timer. Yeah. And therefore I would get given [00:39:35] more elaborate cases of work.

Payman Langroudi: Cosmetic.

Bhavnish Waghela: I got to do that early [00:39:40] on. And in those days, um, there weren’t really many postgraduate qualifications, [00:39:45] but I did the. What was the MFA or MFA? Yeah. Um, [00:39:50] and then started taking photos of my work and, and sort of criticising it. Yeah. [00:39:55] Probably it started going to a couple of I went to a CD event a few years after that actually. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:40:00] Basically I hadn’t started.

Bhavnish Waghela: No, it hadn’t started then.

Payman Langroudi: Did you do any? Rosenthal.

Bhavnish Waghela: I did the Rosenthal thing. [00:40:05] I we used to do a lot of, um, I did the first Rosenthal thing and I thought, this is not for [00:40:10] me.

Payman Langroudi: But there wasn’t there was no cosmetic dentistry back then. That’s all there was.

Bhavnish Waghela: No, it [00:40:15] was very limited. Yeah. Um, and I felt [00:40:20] that cosmetic dentistry or more restorative dentistry is is [00:40:25] where. So, you know, the whole adhesives thing was, was not around then.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It wasn’t.

Bhavnish Waghela: Around. It [00:40:30] was more just prep things and.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: Do crowns.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So then then [00:40:35] how long did you stay in that one?

Bhavnish Waghela: I was there for about three and a half years.

Payman Langroudi: Until you bought your. [00:40:40]

Bhavnish Waghela: Nhs. Then. Then I thought, you know what, now I need to move. I had a bit of cocoming couple of [00:40:45] jobs, uh, met my wife.

Payman Langroudi: Um, she dentist too, isn’t [00:40:50] she?

Bhavnish Waghela: No. She’s, uh. So she’s nothing to do. Dentistry. She did a psychology degree. [00:40:55] Oh. And at the time, she was working as a business advisor in a local [00:41:00] business. Um, a local company that used [00:41:05] to support businesses. So we met whirlwind affair, met [00:41:10] in October, got married in June of the next year, and then we bought a practice the year after.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:41:15] she’s very involved in the running of the businesses. Yes. Um, [00:41:20] to the point that, I mean, it was even obvious to me when I visited that she was taking [00:41:25] care of a lot of the non-clinical side. Yeah. And you were the clinical. Did she did [00:41:30] you sort of plan it that way that you said, like, come into the business?

Bhavnish Waghela: Yes or no? [00:41:35] Um, so again, I suppose when I opened my, the Corby practice, um, I [00:41:40] struggled, you know, I didn’t, you know, when you have an NHS practice, there’s no such thing as marketing. There’s [00:41:45] no need for marketing. And the amount of money I wasted on advertising in this magazine [00:41:50] and that magazine. And so you learn from your mistakes. And I made a lot. Uh, [00:41:55] so we got Chris Sparrow involved in with our, with our practice And, [00:42:00] um, one of the things that Chris said is because I was doing everything clinical dentistry, payroll, [00:42:05] all everything was done by me. And he goes, Bob, you just need to now start [00:42:10] delegating things. So at that point, he was the one that said, right. So we thought, right, [00:42:15] let’s delegate all the stuff to all that stuff to her. Um, [00:42:20] my manager was looking after the staff and whatever it may be. So yeah. And since that [00:42:25] day, that division has been very good.

Payman Langroudi: I think Chris Barrett, [00:42:30] he gets a bit of stick, but I remember a time walking [00:42:35] into practices and thinking, he’s been here. You can tell. He can tell. Yeah, you can tell. There was [00:42:40] something about I mean again, these days it’s so common. Um, but back then he was way [00:42:45] ahead of his time at 100%. Way ahead of his time, 100%. So all right, you [00:42:50] start the NHS practice or you buy by the NHS practice. [00:42:55]

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. So that was an old retirement sale. Yeah. It was It was literally 600ft². The [00:43:00] guy didn’t do anything other than amalgams. We took over [00:43:05] May the 4th, I remember it. 2001. We [00:43:10] closed it for a week, and I remember in his surgery he had a large [00:43:15] window that the patients would face with a net curtain. I [00:43:20] remember taking the net curtain down. There were crowns in it because they were flicked, you know, it was the [00:43:25] most disgusting practice. Literally, it was terrible. They had the old school, [00:43:30] um, X-ray developing.

Payman Langroudi: Thing.

Bhavnish Waghela: And that was literally I had to get a sander to [00:43:35] remove that. So we just just cleaned it up. Myself, my friends [00:43:40] and brother and everyone, we just chipped in, you know, the old school sort of family business thing [00:43:45] got in there. Within a week we’d turned it around, opened and.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:43:50] but at this point, you weren’t doing any of the implants? No. So when, when [00:43:55] did that level of Clinical. I mean, you know, to want to open a private practice, [00:44:00] obviously your your clinical skills must have moved on. So what was [00:44:05] sort of the point that you went, well, I’m going to do private dentistry. Why? I mean, you know what I mean. [00:44:10] You could you could still be an NHS dentist today.

Bhavnish Waghela: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: But something flicked in your head.

Bhavnish Waghela: I did. Um, [00:44:15] so it was a case of I wanted to do something that would sort of. I wanted to do [00:44:20] it in those. I did the Eastman Year certificate course. Good one.

Payman Langroudi: And restorative. [00:44:25]

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. And the restorative.

Payman Langroudi: Back then, it really was the.

Bhavnish Waghela: It was really, really good. And what what I realised then [00:44:30] was, um, you get to hone your skills in various various [00:44:35] disciplines. Yeah. Um, and from then I met [00:44:40] a wonderful lady called Ryvita who passed away. Um, Raj Prakash and Ravi to Prakash [00:44:45] Raj.

Payman Langroudi: Prakash.

Bhavnish Waghela: Raj Prakash, his wife, she passed away. Yeah. So she was on the same cohort as [00:44:50] me. And I know Raj from King’s. So I used to. And he was doing [00:44:55] implants. So he then said, look, Bob, there’s this Ashok Sethi’s course. [00:45:00] So I did Ashok’s one year jump. Brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: So you got [00:45:05] NHS Eastman?

Bhavnish Waghela: Ashok Sethi I did the Eastman course. Ashok course at 33 [00:45:10] Harley Street. Ashok was brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: Opened your eyes to that.

Bhavnish Waghela: Opened my eyes. But he was really [00:45:15] open hearted as well. Because I would go in on a day when he would be working. I’d take [00:45:20] a day off and go and see him. He’d be my. He was basically my mentor. Then I did the World [00:45:25] College Diploma when he was still director of it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: Um, and [00:45:30] then. But that was after I’d opened my. So I did Ashok’s course, started placing [00:45:35] implants, and and that was when the new contract was had come [00:45:40] in, and I was like, you know, do we grow? What do we do? And I thought, I can’t really grow [00:45:45] in the premises that I was in. I can’t really promote the kind of dentistry that I want [00:45:50] to do. So then we then open this.

Payman Langroudi: It seems like today, it seems like [00:45:55] such an obvious thing to become like one of the early implant ologists in Leicester. I mean, massive [00:46:00] population in that area, right? You know, people don’t realise the population [00:46:05] of Leicester and its surrounding huge towns is like Birmingham, you know, it’s like a huge, [00:46:10] huge population. Today it seems so obvious, but you must have sort of worried that, [00:46:15] you know, is there space for an implant practice here?

Bhavnish Waghela: If you think about it, when I opened [00:46:20] the practice in Corby.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: Corby at the time was the teenage [00:46:25] pregnancy capital of the Europe.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. At the time when back then, everyone was blaming everything [00:46:30] on single mums instead of immigrants. Absolutely.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. So [00:46:35] it was terrible. And in fact, I remember when I opened the when we were opening the, the [00:46:40] practice and my manager at the time, Carol, she’s, she’s from Corby, she was like, I’m not [00:46:45] sure if this is going to work.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Bhavnish Waghela: Um, we’ve had some trouble. I remember one day we went in [00:46:50] and it was private dentistry awards. We were an up for an award 2000. [00:46:55] I can’t remember what year it was and I woke up. I had my alarm had gone off [00:47:00] and we had a car that had gone off the main road and crashed [00:47:05] into my front door in my practice, like, what the hell? We had to [00:47:10] stop. Yeah, yeah, but it’s in those. You know, when you said they say [00:47:15] diamonds are made under pressure and the team were brilliant, [00:47:20] we worked really well. So it was. But those that Corby practice or [00:47:25] that opening, that kind of practice in Corby was a challenge because [00:47:30] of the demographics of the area.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I want to get on to Implantology itself [00:47:35] a little bit. Okay. Um, because there’s definitely a [00:47:40] split between dentists who kind of are being very crude here, like blood [00:47:45] and don’t like blood. Yes. Yeah. There’s definitely some people do not want to ever [00:47:50] cut a flap. Yeah. Yeah. And then you get the other type. Who up for it? You know, maybe they’ve [00:47:55] done an oral surgery job or something, but they’re up for it. Do you remember [00:48:00] being the first type and forcing yourself to become the second type, or were you always that surgically [00:48:05] orientated kind of cat? Did Ashok unlock you?

Bhavnish Waghela: I think Ashok [00:48:10] unlocked me. I’ll tell you what I think. I think one of the things that I found was when I did the, uh, [00:48:15] restorative course at the Eastman. There wasn’t any surgery in that [00:48:20] at all, but the restorative aspect of it grounded me. [00:48:25]

Payman Langroudi: It’s important, isn’t it? I mean, we think of implant ologists as someone who sticks screws in the bone, but [00:48:30] it’s the full planning of the case. That’s the key.

Bhavnish Waghela: I think that’s the problem. I think, you know, [00:48:35] the oral surgery head leads to, oh, I can put an implant there [00:48:40] because there’s bone there, but then you’re not thinking about the restorative.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely.

Bhavnish Waghela: So, [00:48:45] um.

Payman Langroudi: Is that a good basic understanding of.

Bhavnish Waghela: Of the That’s [00:48:50] pretty, pretty well versed from what I remember at uni and then post [00:48:55] uni. Um, I liked to keep abreast of what was available in terms of courses [00:49:00] and things. Um, and then when I did Ashok’s course, that was like, I wasn’t scared [00:49:05] of cutting a flap, ever. Um, because again, when I was at King’s, [00:49:10] we got chucked in at the deep end. Um, unlike things now [00:49:15] where you’re probably lucky to get a crown, whereas then it was you just [00:49:20] go in. And at that time, we also had I remember we had a two week stint [00:49:25] at A&E where we were suturing all sorts of things. You know, whether it was a knee or a [00:49:30] mouth, it didn’t make a difference. So you had to do it. Yeah. Um, so for me, [00:49:35] it was more always being an extension of the restorative side more than [00:49:40] the surgical side.

Payman Langroudi: Alright. So the first thing is the kind of person who throws themselves [00:49:45] in. Yeah. Um, loads of people do the do the training and then don’t end [00:49:50] up putting many implants in. Tell me about that. I mean, like, if [00:49:55] you were going to give a young dentist’s advice or anyone’s do implantology. First of all, you say [00:50:00] get some training. Yeah, yeah. But loads of people get the training and don’t end up doing any implants. [00:50:05] What’s the what’s the unlock there?

Bhavnish Waghela: I think I think going back to basics again. So firstly [00:50:10] learn to restore. Um, if you’ve got to. That’s what I’m, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: What I.

Bhavnish Waghela: Want to. I’d [00:50:15] recommend learn to restore do some restoration. So you know the the nuances [00:50:20] of implant placement. Yeah. Um, and I think it’s technically [00:50:25] easier now because of guided surgery, guided placement. But [00:50:30] I feel that if you know where to restore, then do a decent [00:50:35] course. I’m not here to say what course, but ultimately do a course. Get [00:50:40] a mentor. Yeah, I think that’s really important because ultimately things can [00:50:45] go wrong. And if you don’t know what to do, you’re a bit stuck.

Payman Langroudi: Have you mentored [00:50:50] people?

Bhavnish Waghela: I have done, yeah. Um, we used to. Again, [00:50:55] it was one of these things that Chris recommended we do where, um, it was a case of reaching [00:51:00] out to our local practices for, um, referrals. Yeah. So [00:51:05] we did that, and then I would mentor associates or practices to come, and I’d go in there, [00:51:10] they’d come to us.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, implant mentoring is one of those things where it’s you’re going [00:51:15] to have to pay for it often. Yes. Because, you know, these are highly skilled people giving up their time. [00:51:20] But I think people underestimate the number of people who will say, [00:51:25] sure, come and watch me for a day.

Bhavnish Waghela: That’s what I used to do.

Payman Langroudi: You know that watching [00:51:30] watching experienced people. It gives you so much more than the treatment planning [00:51:35] piece. You know, it gives you just a whole lot of different skills.

Bhavnish Waghela: You know, like we said earlier, [00:51:40] it was a case of, you know, communication is not just [00:51:45] what you say, it’s how you say it.

Payman Langroudi: And the nuance, isn’t it?

Bhavnish Waghela: Those nuances [00:51:50] that really make a difference to how patients see you and how the team sees [00:51:55] you and stuff like that.

Payman Langroudi: So now let’s talk about, okay, you’ve done implant training. This this [00:52:00] this young dentist has done some implant training. He’s got himself a mentor. He’s maybe even stuck a [00:52:05] few implants in. This is so unfair. What I’m going to ask you next here, the [00:52:10] question is this. Yeah. If you had to boil [00:52:15] it down to 1 or 2 aha moments regarding [00:52:20] implants. What? Think back to [00:52:25] what were 1 or 2 unlocks in your own head. Moments of of of unlock [00:52:30] that you thought aha. Now I understand implant. Now now that I get that more and I’ve [00:52:35] asked this question, I asked Nilesh, uh, Palmer and he said, [00:52:40] uh, suturing. I asked Andrew Darwood and [00:52:45] he said 3D thinking, you know, and examples of [00:52:50] when it was that what comes to mind if I say, aha, where you thought, God, I’ve [00:52:55] got this, now I get it, now what happens? Soft tissues.

Bhavnish Waghela: I think we always underestimate [00:53:00] the power of the end result in terms of [00:53:05] soft tissues.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, the emergence profile.

Bhavnish Waghela: Emergence profile, but also the thickening of [00:53:10] that connective tissue grafting where appropriate, using it, [00:53:15] being able to do it.

Payman Langroudi: To your advantage.

Bhavnish Waghela: To your advantage. Because so many people come [00:53:20] with, uh, you know, especially free end saddles, it’s like maxillary [00:53:25] free and saddles, you have to do a sinus graft, and then you [00:53:30] are left with that vertical height [00:53:35] loss discrepancy. And a lot of dentists would just put pink porcelain. I’m not Ashok [00:53:40] taught me. He’s not a big fan of pink porcelain, so wherever possible [00:53:45] we avoid that. Obviously with full arch cases it’s a different thing. But in the posterior area [00:53:50] we sort of like not to do that.

Payman Langroudi: So what do you do to sort of avert from having [00:53:55] to do that?

Bhavnish Waghela: So I’ll do I do a fair amount of soft tissue grafting.

Payman Langroudi: Grafting.

Bhavnish Waghela: Um, yeah, [00:54:00] basically.

Payman Langroudi: And so did you have a situation where [00:54:05] you didn’t do that, you found that and you know, like the the unlock?

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. I had a patient [00:54:10] where I had placed implants on her right side. Absolutely. [00:54:15] No problem. It wasn’t it was a bounded saddle. So I think I placed a four and five, probably some of the easiest implants. [00:54:20] You can do loads of bone, put them in nice position, nice, straight. And [00:54:25] then then something happened. Uh, I had to do the left hand side and [00:54:30] there was a bit of a recess there, did some grafting and I didn’t do a tissue graft. [00:54:35] Um, and what ended up was that the tooth looked really long.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:54:40]

Bhavnish Waghela: It worked. There’s loads of bone there, but it looked long [00:54:45] visually. Not when she smiles, but when she lifts up her cheek so [00:54:50] she doesn’t look the same as this side.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. And the learning curve around soft tissue. [00:54:55] Is it much more difficult? Must be right.

Bhavnish Waghela: Much less.

Payman Langroudi: Predictable.

Bhavnish Waghela: First it’s. I think it’s. [00:55:00] I think it’s fairly predictable in the right if you understand the process.

Payman Langroudi: What you’re.

Bhavnish Waghela: Doing. Yeah, yeah I [00:55:05] did. Um, Kelly’s courses. I’ve done a few of those. So he’s [00:55:10] very good. Um, and again, go back to Ashok [00:55:15] again.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Bhavnish Waghela: So, yeah, but also think of some of the things that Ashok was teaching at [00:55:20] the time was obviously this is pre surgery. Pre um scanning. [00:55:25] Yeah, yeah. So he was um placing and [00:55:30] taking an impression at the first stage surgery. [00:55:35] Closing it. Yeah. And then getting his technician to create [00:55:40] the soft tissue in wax, and then making a restoration to that defined [00:55:45] soft tissue before and then making a provisional. And then you’re training that that works really well. [00:55:50] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You kind of pioneered that. Yeah. Yeah. So now [00:55:55] going forward, how much of your work is guided and how much is most of it guided [00:56:00] now.

Bhavnish Waghela: I’d say a about. 60% [00:56:05] guided. But all my [00:56:10] full arch cases.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s say guided, wasn’t available. You could still pull it off. Right.

Bhavnish Waghela: Because yeah, I mean, that’s how we did. [00:56:15]

Payman Langroudi: That sort of baptism of fire. But do you see some some youngsters who have [00:56:20] gone straight to guided and and don’t have the basic skills. Does that happen?

Bhavnish Waghela: I’m sure it [00:56:25] does. Um, I haven’t seen anybody, but I’m sure it does because ultimately the. You’re relying [00:56:30] on that guide. Yeah, you’re relying on the accuracy of that guide and the planning [00:56:35] to give you exact position in the In the bone. Um, and. [00:56:40]

Payman Langroudi: How often does that go wrong? The guide. The guide is inaccurate, for [00:56:45] whatever reason. I mean, what are the things that go wrong with the guide?

Bhavnish Waghela: I think the [00:56:50] biggest problem with guides, uh, would be cooling.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Bhavnish Waghela: Um, [00:56:55] I think if you’ve got a decent scanner, um, obviously [00:57:00] most and it also depends on who’s doing the planning. I mean I do my planning myself. Yeah. So [00:57:05] I’m planning it. Everything in house. Um, so I don’t think [00:57:10] it can go that wrong. But if you don’t know the surgical nuances of bone [00:57:15] density and placement and, you know, just the lingual [00:57:20] recesses that can occur around in the mandible [00:57:25] and stuff like that, just basic anatomy, then I’m sure things can go.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting, isn’t it? Because all of [00:57:30] this, as we call we call all of this experience. Yeah. But experience [00:57:35] comes from errors. 100% right. You know. And you say, oh, I want [00:57:40] to really experience doctor to do my work or whatever that means. He’s made lots of errors. I [00:57:45] remember.

Bhavnish Waghela: I remember my we we had this we it was a case of we [00:57:50] were doing so few in the early days. And then suddenly when things start to [00:57:55] fail, you start to think, why are they failing? I said, because we’re doing a lot more. Yeah, it’s a statistical. [00:58:00]

Payman Langroudi: Exactly, exactly. So how many do you do now?

Bhavnish Waghela: Probably [00:58:05] about 5 or 600. Depends. Oh.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s most [00:58:10] of your work?

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So do you not do.

Bhavnish Waghela: I do, I do, I do I [00:58:15] don’t do, I don’t do many fillings.

Payman Langroudi: Crowns or.

Bhavnish Waghela: Crowns, I do, I do because I enjoy doing crowns. [00:58:20] I enjoy doing cerec. Most of my work is part of a rehab of some [00:58:25] kind. So if I’m doing crowns, it will be. I mean, this morning it was four crowns [00:58:30] and two implants, placement and prep and whatever that kind of thing is. So it’s it’s more of a. [00:58:35] The. Yeah, a big change in that respect.

Payman Langroudi: An overall treatment. [00:58:40]

Bhavnish Waghela: Plan. Treatment plan. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So look you did what you did, but let’s say your [00:58:45] daughter was going to be a dentist and she wanted to be [00:58:50] a surgical dentist. What what what would be the advice now? Because [00:58:55] it’s a different era now. Yeah. I mean, for instance, what you’re saying about the [00:59:00] restorative side. Would you send them off to Kauai first? I would.

Bhavnish Waghela: I think I think [00:59:05] I would recommend she does some kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, occlusion.

Bhavnish Waghela: Occlusion, [00:59:10] restorative training first. Um, and then I [00:59:15] would, you know, surgical training is is recommended. [00:59:20] I mean, I was fortunate because when I did my PT, we [00:59:25] had to do everything ourselves. Um, I would go to the local hospital and [00:59:30] shadow. And what do the max facts. Um. So [00:59:35] it was, it was good. And then obviously in Leicester I’d go to the [00:59:40] max there and get, get stuck in. I did a clinical assistantship [00:59:45] in, in the max in Leicester, did a restorative clinical assistantship there as well. So it was working [00:59:50] in various different aspects of it.

Payman Langroudi: I bet you knew all the people in the hospital. That’s [00:59:55] how you got there.

Bhavnish Waghela: No I didn’t I wish I did, I do now, I didn’t [01:00:00] then.

Payman Langroudi: I just figured when I came to Sweden I was like, this guy knows everyone [01:00:05] in this town. Oh. All right, so one [01:00:10] last thing on implants. All on four.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: I’m more interested. I’m more [01:00:15] interested in the marketing side of that. What do you do to get all on four patients? I mean, are you [01:00:20] doing ads? Are you?

Bhavnish Waghela: We are doing some ads. Uh, we we are doing some ads. [01:00:25] But I think what we’re looking, we tend to say to patients or [01:00:30] ask our ads, focus on pain points. So more along [01:00:35] the lines of are you struggling chewing? Are you [01:00:40] having these ads?

Payman Langroudi: Ads like newspaper ads?

Bhavnish Waghela: No, they’re more online ads.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:00:45] that age group, do I guess they’re on Facebook, right?

Bhavnish Waghela: Facebook?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: Um, [01:00:50] we have done, um, little campaigns. [01:00:55] We do every now and again. We’ll do like an open implant. Implant open evening [01:01:00] where we’ll just invite people to come. We’ll do some form of marketing to attract people. Um, [01:01:05] and then they come in. Initially when we did them, we would have a time slot in the evening. [01:01:10] So we’d have some food and we’d have 15, 20 people come. Ask [01:01:15] as many questions as you’d want. I do a little presentation to the patients. Um, and [01:01:20] then we’ll have a quick look in the mouth and say, yes, you’re suitable. Let’s get you booked in. That’s how we’ve done [01:01:25] it.

Payman Langroudi: And how many of those do you end up doing? Like all on [01:01:30] fours. Is it loads.

Bhavnish Waghela: It’s probably not that many. We don’t. It’s not an we’re not an [01:01:35] all on four focus. It’s not my focus.

Payman Langroudi: Um, have you been to Evo?

Bhavnish Waghela: I have. [01:01:40]

Payman Langroudi: Phenomenal, right?

Bhavnish Waghela: Very slick.

Payman Langroudi: I want to have him on.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I want to have him on.

Bhavnish Waghela: Um, [01:01:45] I’ve been to Evo, but the trigger was, um, [01:01:50] a practice in Germany. In Ulm. Michael weiss. Unbelievable. [01:01:55] This this clinic is huge. They have a tree in the in the reception. Wow. [01:02:00] Um, and I went there through Bree Dent ages ago. Um, [01:02:05] and they were very slick. It was like you got three choices. Dentures, [01:02:10] fixed teeth, or somewhere in the middle, which will fall [01:02:15] out.

Payman Langroudi: Basically.

Bhavnish Waghela: So, um, but we do maybe [01:02:20] 3 or 4 a month.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a lot. Still a lot.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move [01:02:25] on to the darker part of the pod. We like to talk about Errors? [01:02:30]

Bhavnish Waghela: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Chemical errors. What comes to mind? You [01:02:35] know. Have you have you. Have you heard of Black box thinking? It’s a it’s a book where a plane crashes. [01:02:40] Mhm. They look at the black box. They find out what happened. Then they distribute [01:02:45] that information across all the pilot community all over the world without any blame. [01:02:50] And they say look this is what went wrong. Let’s all try and learn from it so it doesn’t happen again. But [01:02:55] with medical Dental, we don’t do that. Yes. We tend to sort of hide from [01:03:00] our errors. We do because blame is a big factor.

Bhavnish Waghela: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: So to [01:03:05] buck that trend, what comes to mind when you think clinical errors?

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. Uh, the first [01:03:10] thing is more of a straightforward cosmetic thing with with [01:03:15] a simple partial denture. Had a, had a patient very [01:03:20] early on. She wanted a partial. She had a partial. We made [01:03:25] her a new partial. She went home. Her daughter didn’t like it. Wanted her money back. [01:03:30] Fine. So what we do now is if we’re [01:03:35] doing anything that is, uh, removable or even fixed, [01:03:40] uh, even if it’s, like, for an all on four case prior to finishing, if [01:03:45] it’s a removable, take it home, leave it, show [01:03:50] as many people as you want before you approve, because [01:03:55] once it’s approved, we’re not going to change it. And if you do want to change, it will cost you. So they are given plenty of time [01:04:00] to confirm they’re happy with that. If it’s a fixed [01:04:05] solution, um, we’ll do a try in, uh, we’ll take loads of photos, [01:04:10] loads of videos, and we’ll send that to the patient. Um, and then so those [01:04:15] are cosmetic things and that all of those changes that I made in our practice were mainly because of this [01:04:20] one lady whose daughter didn’t like her. Partial.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, I think it’s a good [01:04:25] thing, you know, to prep the Prep the patient and say some of your nearest and dearest aren’t going to like it because [01:04:30] there’s good reasons for it. I stuck veneers on my dad and I remember [01:04:35] pulling the chair up. I remember the nurse going, oh my God, that’s beautiful. My dad, for the first time in [01:04:40] my life, telling me he’s proud of me. And I looked at him, thought, that’s not my dad anymore. Yeah. You know, like [01:04:45] I was used to the gaps. Yeah. You know, the weakness was what I loved about him or whatever it is. Yeah. [01:04:50] So I get why it could happen.

Bhavnish Waghela: And this is it. Because ultimately, I mean, more [01:04:55] often than not, it’s a third party who will trigger [01:05:00] a complaint of some kind.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s a complex situation, right? Sometimes we’re talking about 50 [01:05:05] grand of spend. Absolutely. Yeah. So he’s gone off and someone’s persuaded him spend this money. He didn’t even need it in the first. You know [01:05:10] what I mean? Something like that. Yeah. Go on.

Bhavnish Waghela: So that’s the first thing that was a really straightforward [01:05:15] way very early on. So that was the other thing. Sometimes what happens is we get caught up [01:05:20] in the haste Of [01:05:25] treating patients because a patient puts pressures on [01:05:30] us. I want it ready for this date. Yeah. And I don’t think patients understand that. [01:05:35] Uh, especially when a situation is bad from the get [01:05:40] go. So I remember quite a year, many years ago, a patient [01:05:45] had an event that they wanted to be done by. She had some [01:05:50] gingivitis. She wanted some veneers. So we did it very quickly. She was sedated [01:05:55] and obviously she had some black triangles, post [01:06:00] everything healing. And it was like, okay, I’ll do it. We’ll do it again. But it was [01:06:05] a painful experience.

Payman Langroudi: So what happened in the wedding?

Bhavnish Waghela: She went to the [01:06:10] wedding with, like, black triangles because it could be done in time, [01:06:15] right? You know, again, it was like, you know, if you’d come on time again, it’s just you.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:06:20] how did the patient take it?

Bhavnish Waghela: She was really upset.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: Very upset. [01:06:25] Um, and then they were emigrating. So it was. [01:06:30] We’re moving out the country. I’ve got to go to this wedding. It’s my brother or sister’s wedding. She [01:06:35] had the. She was wearing a, um, one of those clicky [01:06:40] smiles. Oh, really? Snap on, snap on. Smiles. So when she took it off, it [01:06:45] was horrendous underneath. So.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:06:50] tried to be a hero.

Bhavnish Waghela: We tried to be a hero. So hero antics. I think what happens is we tend to try [01:06:55] and save teeth for patients because we feel that it’s ours and it is [01:07:00] our responsibility ultimately to help them. But sometimes we have to tell a patient what can be done and can’t [01:07:05] be done.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: We have to be honest about that.

Payman Langroudi: Often. It’s not. It’s being honest with yourself as [01:07:10] well. Right. Often you’re pushing the boundaries a little bit and the patient doesn’t realise. [01:07:15] You haven’t sort of made that clear to the patient that I’m pushing the boundaries a little bit [01:07:20] on this one. Um, and then it goes wrong because you’re because you’re pushing the boundaries. And [01:07:25] then we’ve got a situation.

Bhavnish Waghela: So very often I mean I think the, the older I’m getting the more I’m [01:07:30] telling them the, the this is not possible. Or if I’m doing this, I don’t think it’s going to last as long [01:07:35] or let’s be honest about this, this is this is the.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:07:40] like those two stories. But I just think for someone who’s done as many implants as you, for [01:07:45] instance, there must be a better story than those two stories.

Bhavnish Waghela: About a few implants [01:07:50] fall out on me.

Payman Langroudi: Go on.

Bhavnish Waghela: Oh, there’s this one. There’s this one girl, one lady that I that [01:07:55] comes to my I mean, she’s brilliant. She still sees me now. Uh-uh. Uh, bilateral sinus lift. She’s an ex-drug [01:08:00] user. I’m not a smoker. Her gran [01:08:05] was. I did all on for her. For her gran. She was paying for this. This [01:08:10] granddaughter of hers. And these just, you know, I think I did bilateral sinus lift, waited six, eight [01:08:15] months, put implants in left hand side one fell out, the other one [01:08:20] fell out, another one fell out. Fell out. Oh, shit. And it hadn’t happened to me before because [01:08:25] it’s always worked in my hands.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: And then you start looking at the the [01:08:30] physiological aspect of Implantology, uh, or [01:08:35] the health related aspect of it.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the drug abuse and all that.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. But she still sees [01:08:40] me. So it was a so.

Payman Langroudi: She was.

Bhavnish Waghela: Cool. She was cool because but from a clinical point of view, I [01:08:45] should have waited longer. I should have explained to her that, you [01:08:50] know, I wasn’t as frank about how [01:08:55] things can fail is more communicative, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Hadn’t happened [01:09:00] to you before? No. Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: And it was probably one of the first patients that I’d seen where [01:09:05] I had that history. In fact, the only person I’ve seen with that history.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: So. Yeah. [01:09:10] Luckily, I’ve been fortunate. Nothing.

Payman Langroudi: If I say. What about if I say who is your most difficult patient? [01:09:15]

Bhavnish Waghela: Invisalign patients.

Payman Langroudi: Because they get suddenly very exacting, [01:09:20] don’t they?

Bhavnish Waghela: Luckily, I don’t do much. But I think what happens is as your teeth become straighter, you become more and more, and [01:09:25] they forget where they came from.

Payman Langroudi: Listen, I’ve been that parent. I’ve been that parent with my own [01:09:30] kids, Invisalign or my own kids ortho. Where at the end I’m just giving the guy, not me, my wife [01:09:35] giving the guy a really hard time about this one millimetre. Yeah. You know. [01:09:40]

Bhavnish Waghela: And I think I think what happens is we, we as I think [01:09:45] okay. So firstly patients forget where they come from. Mhm. Um [01:09:50] we are not at good at communicating [01:09:55] what can and can’t be done from the get go. And I [01:10:00] think we’re all scared of being sued FTP, whatever it may be that [01:10:05] we will say okay fine, I’ll do what I can. Yeah, [01:10:10] yeah. Um, and often there is not much we can do. Um, I. [01:10:15]

Payman Langroudi: Think there’s a tension. Do you recognise this here? That it’s. It’s a young a young man’s trap to fall into. Yeah, [01:10:20] but the tension between you mentioned it before making the sale. Yes. [01:10:25] Yeah. The amount of enthusiasm you have to have for it. Yeah. I can take care of this [01:10:30] in order that the patient gets confidence so that you make the sale. And what [01:10:35] you just said, pointing out all the limitations of the treatment. And [01:10:40] it’s a young man’s trap because actually and we both know it, that we’re getting to the stage where we’ve had [01:10:45] to talk to doctors and, you know, family members and all that, actually a doctor or [01:10:50] a lawyer who tells you A, B, C, X, Y, and Z are big risks [01:10:55] here. Yeah. Do you actually respect that guy more? Yeah. Than the one who says, [01:11:00] yep, we can do this. Let’s go. Yeah. Because we all know nothing is yet. We can do this. Let’s [01:11:05] go in medicine. Right.

Bhavnish Waghela: Absolutely. I think I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Very, you know, where we sell the Invisalign? [01:11:10] Because now we made a silly target for the Invisalign open day. We said yes, let’s sell [01:11:15] ten Invisalign. Let’s get everyone geed up over that fact. Yeah. Now we’ve pushed [01:11:20] someone to say, hey, go ahead. We’re going to make this beautiful. Now, a year later. [01:11:25] Yeah, that comes back to get you, bite you. You know.

Bhavnish Waghela: So this is the thing that we’ve done. We’ve, we’ve [01:11:30] I think some of the, one of the things that we’ve done with our open days, whether they’ve been we don’t do many Invisalign open [01:11:35] days, we’re not an Invisalign practice or business, um, is even when we’ve [01:11:40] done open days or smile makeover open days, we’ve always we’ve very [01:11:45] rarely put really strict targets in place for our team, because ultimately [01:11:50] we’ve always felt that the end result is a happy patient, rather than [01:11:55] however many veneers or however many case acceptances. [01:12:00] Obviously, that’s part of the business. We have to look at those figures, but it’s not the [01:12:05] be all and end all of what we do in our practice. Um.

Payman Langroudi: The funny thing with aligners [01:12:10] is, as people discount them, there isn’t that much money in aligners [01:12:15] is anymore?

Bhavnish Waghela: No.

Payman Langroudi: You know. And this effect that you’re talking about is exacting [01:12:20] patient who needs to revision what they call it revision? No. Um, refinement. Refinement. [01:12:25] Yeah. So you’ve got a double whammy. People are bringing their price down, throwing in free everything with it, and then refinements [01:12:30] on top. It’s not as profitable as a couple of rounds. Exactly. [01:12:35]

Bhavnish Waghela: Well, this is it, isn’t it? I mean, I sort of talk to my associates and I say, look, ultimately, if you think [01:12:40] about an Invisalign case, um, it’s going to take you this amount of time [01:12:45] and this many visits and you’re going to make from a, from a purely, [01:12:50] very simple profit and loss, you’re going to gross this much. Whereas [01:12:55] if you did two crowns and we have cerec, [01:13:00] um, you can it’s going to it’s such a no brainer.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: So Quadrant [01:13:05] Dentistry you’re doing best. Good quality quadrant dentistry for the patient [01:13:10] is far more profitable from a business point of view for everybody.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:13:15] Tell me about associates. Do you reckon [01:13:20] you’re quite good at spotting a good associate? Because you’ve had some people. Gomez. Yeah. Talked [01:13:25] about? Yeah. Who? You know, gone on to do things of their own. And, you know, I guess they’ve learned from you [01:13:30] as well. Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: I think I think, um, there is an element of it’s a two way street. [01:13:35] Mhm. I believe that there are some people that want to learn. Yeah. And [01:13:40] some people that want to earn. Mhm. And I, I have [01:13:45] hired both and I’ve fired those that just want to earn. Mhm. [01:13:50] Um historically we’ve done that because again you know there [01:13:55] is a really because both the practices have been nurtured, [01:14:00] patients have been nurtured by me and the team. We have an element of [01:14:05] expectation by patients and by the staff of how a patient is treated [01:14:10] by associates. Mhm. Um, and you know, I did an audit of how [01:14:15] much free stuff I’ve done, and we’re talking thousands of pounds [01:14:20] worth of stuff, because for me, it’s not about the money. It’s. I’ll [01:14:25] fix it. Don’t worry about it. You’ve paid me to do this. I’ll. I’ll sort it. Um, whereas not [01:14:30] everybody thinks like that.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Bhavnish Waghela: That’s right. So when it comes to [01:14:35] sometimes we’ve had to hire because we’ve needed to hire. Mhm. Um, there’s only so much I can [01:14:40] do. And therefore a quick hire especially in this market is, [01:14:45] is, is needed sometimes. And then you sort of figure out as they started how good they [01:14:50] are or not or where they need nurturing. And if they are, if they want to be nurtured, [01:14:55] it’s brilliant. Um, luckily we’re lucky in that the team that we have at the moment are [01:15:00] all very good in the way they are receptive to [01:15:05] being being mentored.

Payman Langroudi: Would you feel like you can spot [01:15:10] them?

Bhavnish Waghela: No. I’ll be honest.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you know, you’re not wrong. I mean, you know Prav. Yes. [01:15:15] He’s got this process for hiring, not dentists, but hiring his team. I [01:15:20] mean, if you walked you through the process, it’s this unbelievable thing. Like, they go through this, [01:15:25] this whole answer questionnaire thing where he’s got some trap questions that anyone who gets [01:15:30] that one wrong is taken out. He’s got a bunch of things that happened just by automation [01:15:35] to ask him. And then they come, uh, the 4 or 5 finalists come [01:15:40] in for a week each, and then the team decides who’s. And he goes often at the end of all of [01:15:45] that, he ends up firing that person one week later. Because. Because it’s the wrong person. He’s [01:15:50] not the person. He thought he was kidding. Wow. Um, but is that.

Bhavnish Waghela: Do you say that’s all automated?

Payman Langroudi: No, there’s a big [01:15:55] automated piece. But then even even once it’s all done, the five people come in for a whole [01:16:00] week for a trial. Trial week? Yeah. And what my my basic point is, even with [01:16:05] a process like that, you can get it wrong. Um, but you know. [01:16:10] What can you learn from someone in an interview? It’s difficult. Just their communication [01:16:15] style.

Bhavnish Waghela: It’s like when you go out on a social, you know, if you meet somebody, you’re introduced to somebody. Yeah. Um, and [01:16:20] they are very, you know, first time you meet somebody, second time. Third time [01:16:25] you meet somebody. It takes a long time to get to their [01:16:30] real, real self. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s funny, my friend talks about this here, that if [01:16:35] he has a dinner party, he invites three people to the dinner. It was three families [01:16:40] to the table. Because people get on really well that first time. Because everyone tells their best stories. [01:16:45] Yeah. But if you invite them again. Yeah. They haven’t got those stories to go to anymore.

Bhavnish Waghela: Everyone’s [01:16:50] on their best behaviour for the first few times. And then. Then you’re stuck. I used to do this [01:16:55] system where I’m a big believer. So, you know, some people are heavy handed. [01:17:00] Yeah. Like physically they the way they, you know. Yeah. Massage or whatever [01:17:05] it may be. So I used to get the associates to do an A scale and polish on me on me to see how heavy handed they were. Um, [01:17:10] and then we’ve not hired people based on that or hygienists and stuff like that, [01:17:15] because ultimately it’s you’ve had patients who’ve [01:17:20] been treated by staff or been treated by the team who are very happy [01:17:25] because of the fact that it didn’t hurt them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: The, the you know, everyone [01:17:30] knows this, that there are certain dentists that are not skilled in their ability [01:17:35] to produce an exquisite restoration, but the patients will love them. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That [01:17:40] gentle dentist thing, you know, painless injections. It goes a distance [01:17:45] massively. I think I bang on about this too much. I’ll talk about in the previous podcast. [01:17:50] Painless injection, I think is like maybe the most important thing you could do.

Bhavnish Waghela: I 100% agree [01:17:55] with you. You know, so many times I’ll get told, um, that, you know, [01:18:00] you’re the first time I’ve had an injection. I keep coming back to you because it doesn’t hurt.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: Um, [01:18:05] and even with implants, I will make a song and dance about how much it’s going to hurt them after [01:18:10] anything I do. And when it doesn’t hurt that much, they think I’m brilliant. [01:18:15]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What do you see as the future for you? [01:18:20]

Bhavnish Waghela: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Do you want to wind down? Do you want to sell?

Bhavnish Waghela: I think so. I probably [01:18:25] look at selling in the next 7 or 8 years.

Payman Langroudi: Say eight years, maybe.

Bhavnish Waghela: Maybe sooner. [01:18:30] We’ll see. It just depends. Because obviously, if my daughter does architecture, then it’s a seven [01:18:35] year course. So I need to sort of think about. But also I think I, you know, what would I do. I enjoy I really.

Payman Langroudi: Enjoy.

Bhavnish Waghela: Dentistry. [01:18:40] I probably do a lot more volunteering at the in our organisation. Yeah. Um, [01:18:45] I. Would travel probably [01:18:50] travel. And because I enjoy implants, I’d probably [01:18:55] teach. I’d probably roam be a roaming. I placed implants [01:19:00] at sensu as well, you know. Yeah, yeah. And I go there every [01:19:05] now and again and do that. So I could probably just do that on a few days a week and then sell [01:19:10] up in London.

Payman Langroudi: You do that?

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, nice. It’s a weekend away.

Bhavnish Waghela: A weekend, usually [01:19:15] a Saturday. Um, but again, it’s sort of ad hoc. Um, [01:19:20] we we instructed people to help us grow our Invisalign a few years ago. [01:19:25] So it’s like a symbiotic thing that way.

Payman Langroudi: Nice. Which practice do you go to? All of them.

Bhavnish Waghela: The. The [01:19:30] both London Bridge and Wimpole.

Payman Langroudi: There’s two.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you’ve [01:19:35] never taught before?

Bhavnish Waghela: No teaching.

Payman Langroudi: No ambition [01:19:40] to.

Bhavnish Waghela: Not really. No.

Payman Langroudi: That’s different. That’s nice.

Bhavnish Waghela: I think I think even [01:19:45] even, you know, I think everyone’s seeming to sort of write their exit planning is to have [01:19:50] a business where they end up coaching or training of some kind. [01:19:55] Yeah. That isn’t me. I’d probably join my friends in their businesses doing something. [01:20:00] Yeah. Rather than it wouldn’t be dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [01:20:05] you’ve, you’ve, you’ve you’ve pretty much completed dentistry. If dentistry was an [01:20:10] arcade game. You’ve completed it.

Bhavnish Waghela: I’ve completed a few levels. Then I’d be 30 years this year. [01:20:15] So for you.

Payman Langroudi: As well, right? Yeah. I’m going for my 30 year thing in summer. Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: We’re planning on meeting [01:20:20] a few this year somewhere, if that works.

Payman Langroudi: Out. We’ve come to the end of our time, so, um, [01:20:25] I’m going to finish it with the usual questions.

Bhavnish Waghela: Go for.

Payman Langroudi: It. First [01:20:30] one’s a fantasy dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive. Who [01:20:35] do you have?

Bhavnish Waghela: Okay, so I would probably have my guru. Um, [01:20:40] obviously, for for the fact that he’s [01:20:45] not here physically. Um, then I would have. Mahatma [01:20:50] Gandhi.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. He’s [01:20:55] been before to these dinner parties.

Bhavnish Waghela: And there’s another person. So I’m quite a passionate Indian. Yeah, [01:21:00] and there is. There was a person in the in the Indian independence movement. Um. [01:21:05] Oh my God. Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel. He [01:21:10] was not recognised for his role in the independence of India. [01:21:15] Um, but he was slightly opposite to Gandhi. Okay. [01:21:20] Gandhi was very much about. Yeah. Peaceful revolution.

Payman Langroudi: He was. He was. Malcolm X [01:21:25] was.

Bhavnish Waghela: Like the Malcolm X of that. Um. So three Indians.

Payman Langroudi: What’s his name?

Bhavnish Waghela: Patel. [01:21:30]

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Bhavnish Waghela: His his his. Um. Yeah. Slightly different [01:21:35] approach. He was a bit more of a, you know, we need to do this properly. Kind [01:21:40] of a bit more gung ho approach. So, three massive Indians.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting dinner [01:21:45] party. Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: Because those two are polar opposite.

Payman Langroudi: You’re sort of identifying [01:21:50] as an Indian. Yes. As a Gujarati or as a Hindu, as a, you know, the [01:21:55] different things that you identify as. Yeah. And I guess it’s super important to you. You know what I find really [01:22:00] interesting? How your staff were talking about the temple and what they’ve like, [01:22:05] learned about it from you.

Bhavnish Waghela: And I talked about it quite openly. And also we, um, every year [01:22:10] at Diwali.

Payman Langroudi: They.

Bhavnish Waghela: Come. Uh, we have an event that’s massive events in Neasden. [01:22:15] Yeah, it’s over two days, Diwali. And the next day is the Gujarati New Year. And over in [01:22:20] Neasden, they get like 50 or 60,000 people over the two days. In Leicester we get 15, 20,000 people. [01:22:25] And I’m quite heavily involved in that.

Payman Langroudi: So look that identity [01:22:30] right. You know, it’s it’s important right. It’s it’s what [01:22:35] how you define yourself. Do you recognise what I’m saying? If I say if [01:22:40] you’re let’s say your daughter doesn’t want to marry [01:22:45] a Hindu or or whatever that. And I can imagine you’d want them [01:22:50] to 1 or 2. Right. But do you understand? Do you recognise what I’m saying regarding [01:22:55] evolution of that? Evolution [01:23:00] of that, you know, like kind of kind of what? You said your dad came here overcompensated. [01:23:05] Overcompensated. Hence, you know, then you did what you did. Each [01:23:10] one is an evolution. 100%. Yeah. And I’m not saying [01:23:15] she needs to marry a Swedish guy. Yeah, whatever. Let her marry whoever she wants to marry. [01:23:20] But. But Jensen was saying, like regarding evolution.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Of [01:23:25] second generation. Third generation, you know, and in the same way, not just marry. Uh, [01:23:30] let’s say she didn’t say architecture. Let’s say she said, I want to act in plays. [01:23:35] Yeah. Yeah. You know, that’s.

Bhavnish Waghela: Very interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Alarm signs.

Bhavnish Waghela: Because she [01:23:40] she she did. She’s a phenomenal singer.

Payman Langroudi: Is she.

Bhavnish Waghela: And she’s done a diploma in musical [01:23:45] theatre singing. Oh, wow wow wow.

Payman Langroudi: So she’s kind of come up.

Bhavnish Waghela: So it has come up and the discussion has [01:23:50] been had.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. How interesting.

Bhavnish Waghela: Um, and it was a case of. Look, we understand, but [01:23:55] get a degree. Get a degree first.

Payman Langroudi: Same thing as your dad said to you, right? Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: Basically. [01:24:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: But yeah, I think, um.

Payman Langroudi: Because there are things that stay the same. [01:24:05] Yeah. Like advice like that. And then there are things that need to evolve. And it’s, it’s an [01:24:10] interesting sort of I.

Bhavnish Waghela: Think the challenge being from where I am from. Yeah, is we [01:24:15] live in this crossroads or I live in this crossroads where.

Payman Langroudi: East and west.

Bhavnish Waghela: East [01:24:20] and west and yes, okay, I am Western, but my faith is eastern. [01:24:25] Yeah, my spirituality is eastern, and as a family we are quite [01:24:30] religious. So we don’t drink and we’re vegetarian and we go to religious, [01:24:35] we go to the temple regularly or we go to events that are religious very regularly. So [01:24:40] what she sees and what she has seen growing up is me going to the temple, [01:24:45] me doing a red dot on my head and me praying in the morning, and her mum listening to various [01:24:50] discourses and lighting candles in the house and you know, all these things. [01:24:55] So she, she’s very much. She herself does a bindi [01:25:00] every day at school, and so she’s quite religious in her way, but even [01:25:05] more Western than us.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s definitely it is evolving anyway. [01:25:10]

Bhavnish Waghela: It is.

Payman Langroudi: Evolving. Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: Interesting. You know, thought process is mindset. You know, even even, you know, [01:25:15] if you look at, uh, gender equality and those kind of things. Massive change. [01:25:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. The final question. Yeah, it’s a deathbed question. I [01:25:25] don’t want to be morbid, but it’s a deathbed question. On your deathbed, surrounded by your loved ones, your grandchildren’s grandchildren, [01:25:30] if you had to give them three pieces of advice, what would they be?

Bhavnish Waghela: Don’t [01:25:35] focus on. Focus [01:25:40] on your family. Focus on time with your family. Um, and [01:25:45] that’s not just your children. It’s also your parents. Yeah, I think we forget [01:25:50] our parents too much.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: I would say [01:25:55] that money comes and goes and is not important. And [01:26:00] don’t look at your neighbours. You know that whole [01:26:05] compare. Don’t compare.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: Don’t compare is I think comparison is the worst thing. So focus [01:26:10] on your family, parents and children time with them because [01:26:15] that’s never going to come back. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Someone told me that about parents and [01:26:20] and I said, oh no, both my parents are still alive. And he said he said, it’s not that. [01:26:25] He said, it’s not that. Talk to them while you still can. Yeah. And I hadn’t considered [01:26:30] that. And this was this was years ago. I hadn’t considered that I was too young. And [01:26:35] now I’m realising what that guy was saying.

Bhavnish Waghela: And, you know, as we get older, I’m [01:26:40] seeing my friends. Unfortunately, both my parents and my wife’s parents [01:26:45] are still alive. Yeah. Um, and my friends [01:26:50] are losing parents, and that day is going [01:26:55] to happen. So the more as day goes by, we think, you know, I need to.

Payman Langroudi: Spend [01:27:00] more time.

Bhavnish Waghela: Spend more time with him. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Good advice. It’s been such a pleasure [01:27:05] having you. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming all the way as well.

Bhavnish Waghela: Thank you, thank.

Payman Langroudi: You, thank you so much.

Bhavnish Waghela: It’s been great.

[VOICE]: This [01:27:10] is Dental Leaders, the podcast [01:27:15] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:27:20] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav [01:27:25] Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened [01:27:30] to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through [01:27:35] and listening to what we had to say and what our guests has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some [01:27:40] value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And [01:27:45] if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so [01:27:50] so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast has been brought to you by Mini Smile Makeover. Mini Smile Makeover is a two day anterior [00:00:05] composite course led by the extraordinary talented doctor Dipesh Palmer. Two [00:00:10] days of full on, hands on composite training, purely focussed on [00:00:15] anterior work composite veneers, polishing, finishing, shade matching. You also [00:00:20] get a free enlightened kit. Plus we have a great time and a party in the middle. Find out the. [00:00:25] Details. [00:00:30]

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders. [00:00:35] The podcast where you get to go one on one [00:00:40] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome Sarena Kiani on to the podcast. [00:00:55] Sarina is a young dentist who’s moving quickly through some of the most [00:01:00] high profile practices in the UK. A pleasure to have you.

Sarina Kiani: Hi. [00:01:05] Thank you so much for having me here. Such an honour. It is.

Payman Langroudi: So, [00:01:10] Serena, I know you through mehdi’s practice and [00:01:15] latterly through rhona’s practice. And for a lot of people, [00:01:20] these would be dream jobs. Yeah, but these were your first few jobs.

Sarina Kiani: I know.

Payman Langroudi: And sort [00:01:25] of. My burning question is, how did you get these jobs? I mean.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, [00:01:30] fair. I get asked that question a lot, actually. Oh, you’re so lucky. Like, what [00:01:35] did you do?

Payman Langroudi: Uh, how did you meet them?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, yeah. Um, I am lucky, [00:01:40] and I feel really incredibly grateful. Um, I I’m [00:01:45] not even one of those people you see a lot at Dental events. I think that a lot [00:01:50] of the jobs that I have now and the people that I’ve met were just organic. [00:01:55] So, Mehdi, I met when I was a Dental rep for GSK. I [00:02:00] was my job was literally to knock on every single door in London a dental practice [00:02:05] and sell them basically Sensodyne and Corsodyl toothpastes. [00:02:10] And I met Mehdi, obviously instantly felt like he was the best dentist I’d [00:02:15] ever met because he’s so charming. And then I actually ended up becoming one of his patients, [00:02:20] doing my teeth with him, all this stuff. And then he [00:02:25] wrote my reference for dental school. So I didn’t even want to be a dentist until quite [00:02:30] later on in life while I was a rep for GSK, because I thought, oh, I quite like [00:02:35] what they do, like this intimate 1 to 1 that they have with their patients and the challenges [00:02:40] that they face, all these things. So Mehdi came about through working for GSK [00:02:45] and then.

Payman Langroudi: Dental is.

Sarina Kiani: Called yeah, Refreshed Dental. And then I [00:02:50] just stayed in touch with him and and it kind of just grew from there. And I would [00:02:55] joke about, you know, when I graduate, you’re gonna hire me. All these things. I’d drop a little, [00:03:00] um, you know, a little on purpose. Yeah. On purpose. A little [00:03:05] a little seed for him not to forget about me. All through dental school as well. Um, [00:03:10] kept in touch, but genuinely, it was because I actually, um, wanted to [00:03:15] stay in touch. And then rhona’s practice. So Chelsea Dental Clinic, um, [00:03:20] came about during Covid. Dental school I was going to was Kings and [00:03:25] we closed for something like six months. I wasn’t able to go into dental school [00:03:30] and do anything. Everything was online and I hated it. I’m [00:03:35] not the type of person who can just sit there on the screen for hours on end and learn that way. [00:03:40] I need to physically be doing stuff. I need to physically see things. So then, um, at the [00:03:45] time, I had a friend. Well, I had a friend. I have a friend, Luke Athwal, who works at Rhona’s [00:03:50] clinic. And I messaged him saying, look, I am. I’m dying here. Can I get a job [00:03:55] as a nurse? As a dental nurse? Um, anywhere, you know. Just so I can [00:04:00] do something during Covid. And he recommended Rhona’s clinic. So during [00:04:05] Covid, I was a dental nurse at Chelsea Dental Clinic, and I was [00:04:10] working with everyone there. Our Richard, Rona, Luke [00:04:15] and Sarah. And so I met all these people. I met the team during Covid, [00:04:20] just working as a dental nurse. I was one of the worst dental nurses you can think of because I was just [00:04:25] looking at the work. I’m not paying attention to any of the suction and like writing secret [00:04:30] notes for things I wanted to learn. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And which year of dental school was that? [00:04:35]

Sarina Kiani: That was 2020. So during literally the height of Covid.

Payman Langroudi: You were. [00:04:40]

Sarina Kiani: What, a.

Payman Langroudi: Third year student.

Sarina Kiani: Fourth year? Fourth year? Yeah. Fourth year at the time. Um, [00:04:45] third year. Fourth year. Yeah. Fourth year at the time, I think. And yeah. [00:04:50] So I met everyone then. And to be honest, I didn’t think like I’m working as a dental nurse. [00:04:55] And then one day I’m going to have a job at Chelsea Dental Clinic. I didn’t think that way. I just always [00:05:00] had this, like imposter syndrome of who the hell do you think you are? Which I think most people have. [00:05:05] And I think a lot of females in dentistry have as well, that kind of mindset. And [00:05:10] then fast forward now.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah. How did you end [00:05:15] up working there after two years?

Sarina Kiani: After? Um, no. Even a year after [00:05:20] my PhD year, Rona gave me a ring and she, like, [00:05:25] out of the blue, called me.

Payman Langroudi: She called.

Sarina Kiani: You? Yeah, she called me. And she was like, do you still [00:05:30] want that job here? And I thought, what? No way. Are you crazy? Are you calling [00:05:35] me? I just graduated. What do you mean? Um, obviously on the phone that was going through my head, but [00:05:40] on the phone, I was like, yeah. Hell yeah. Please. Yes. I just said yes. Even though inside [00:05:45] I was thinking, who do you think you are? There are incredible Dentists that work [00:05:50] there, like Mittal, who I had literally put on a pedestal. Everyone’s work is [00:05:55] insane. Like, who do you think you are working there? And I thought, you know what? I’m [00:06:00] never going to learn. I’m never going to improve until I just throw myself into the deep end [00:06:05] and just start. I’m never going to feel ready. So what’s the point of, [00:06:10] you know, saying no and then regretting it and things like that? So I [00:06:15] said, yeah, and then here I am now.

Payman Langroudi: And she’s incredibly good at picking up [00:06:20] on people’s sort of personalities. Yeah. I guess you saw something in you.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. [00:06:25] She said, I think communication maybe. I think I’m a people’s [00:06:30] person and I’m quite chatty. I make people feel comfortable. And I think [00:06:35] that obviously the work is important in dentistry. You need to be good at what you’re doing, especially [00:06:40] if you’re going to be charging people a lot of money. And that side of things I’m always keen [00:06:45] on and I’m very humble about. Keen on improving all those kind of things. But I think [00:06:50] the people management side of things, um, plays a big factor [00:06:55] as well. And I think that’s what I know I’m good at. And I think that [00:07:00] what is what maybe she saw in me what Mehdi saw in me as well, because I think the dentistry [00:07:05] you can learn, but the people skills I think is a little bit harder to teach.

Payman Langroudi: It’s more an [00:07:10] innate thing. It is a more innate thing. Um, but you said, look, you said you had no intention of becoming a dentist, so [00:07:15] you were a rep.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, I know.

Payman Langroudi: What were you thinking when. I mean, when when [00:07:20] you studied, what were you thinking? You want to be.

Sarina Kiani: I wanted to be. I wanted to go into medicine. [00:07:25] Let’s be.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Sarina Kiani: Originally I did, and if you Google me, [00:07:30] there’s a picture of me in the Fulham local news with my holding [00:07:35] my GCSE papers up with all the ace stars that I got. And then underneath it says, you know, [00:07:40] Serena Kayani wants to be a doctor, wants to study medicine. And, [00:07:45] um, when I was in sixth form, I. Well, after that picture, I got a scholarship [00:07:50] to a private school, uh, Latymer Upper School. And I [00:07:55] was doing my A-levels. I thought I wanted to do medicine.

Payman Langroudi: Tough school. [00:08:00]

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, very tough school. Hard time. And I would volunteer at [00:08:05] Chelsea and Westminster Hospital. Ended up in the stroke ward, which isn’t really the best ward to [00:08:10] be in if you’re trying to do medicine, because it was tough. And I was [00:08:15] quite an emotional person. I would go back home after each shift and I’d cry, and it would take [00:08:20] quite a toll on me. And I thought, I don’t know if medicine is for me. Just from a mental [00:08:25] health point of view. I thought that I can’t detach from patients, so I kind of left [00:08:30] it there. Yeah. Um, I did biomedical science. Um, I did [00:08:35] a masters in biotechnology. I thought I’d go down more of the pharmaceutical route, and I applied for [00:08:40] a job at GSK. At the time, the only thing that I could get was being a Dental [00:08:45] rep. And I thought, you know what? I’m just gonna work my way up into more of the pharmaceutical [00:08:50] side of things. And then while I was a rep for GSK, you know, knocking on doors, selling [00:08:55] Sensodyne, I met a lot of dentists and I thought, hang on a minute. This is like [00:09:00] medicine where you’re challenging yourself a lot and you have to use your brain. You have to be on it, but [00:09:05] it doesn’t have that emotional effect on you where, you [00:09:10] know, patients aren’t dying. Touch wood and you can go home and kind of [00:09:15] leave it there. You have more of a 9 to 5. You can have a family. This [00:09:20] might be something that might suit me. And I thought, oh, God, yeah. So I applied [00:09:25] to King’s, got rejected on Ucas, applied [00:09:30] a few more times, got rejected again.

Payman Langroudi: As in waited a year.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, [00:09:35] so I applied, got rejected and then I waited a year. Reapplied [00:09:40] got rejected again, did all the things on the website that it said you need to do. And at the time, [00:09:45] it wasn’t like I was just applying blindly and just hoping for the [00:09:50] best. I was messaging the admissions board. I was asking them literally tons of questions [00:09:55] what do I need to do? What do I need to show? What should I write on my admissions form? No [00:10:00] one in my family has even graduated from university. No one’s a dentist. [00:10:05] My brother owns an incredible tattoo shop like which.

Payman Langroudi: I wanted to talk about.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. [00:10:10]

Payman Langroudi: Because I drive past that shop every day. She’s beautiful.

Sarina Kiani: It’s amazing. He inspires me [00:10:15] every day. And, um, so, you know, I didn’t really have anyone [00:10:20] apart from the friends that I’d made, kind of, you know, midway through [00:10:25] GSK working there and. And Luke and Rona and all these people [00:10:30] that, you know, I would be inspired by, but I didn’t really have anyone in my family or my circle that I can [00:10:35] ask about, you know, even can you help me with this application form? So after [00:10:40] getting rejected, um, the last time I thought, you know what? I’m just going to set up [00:10:45] a meeting. I emailed the head of admissions at King’s at the time, and I [00:10:50] said, could I please steal five minutes of your time to speak to you in person and [00:10:55] see, you know, what can I do to improve my application? And he was kind enough to say yes. [00:11:00] So when I went there, I went armed with, you know, what do they want on [00:11:05] their website? Exactly what they want. And what can I show that I have to at [00:11:10] least warrant an interview? And he said to me, look, just because you’ve come here today, just because you tick all those [00:11:15] boxes, doesn’t mean that you guarantee yourself an interview. I said, I completely understand, but please just [00:11:20] have a look at my application and see if you think I should have an interview. If [00:11:25] I have an interview and I fail, I will never message you again. I will never contact [00:11:30] you and waste your time ever again. That’s how sure I was that I wanted this and I knew [00:11:35] I should be accepted.

Payman Langroudi: How did you know to do that? Did you just come [00:11:40] up with it yourself?

Sarina Kiani: No, I.

Payman Langroudi: Someone told you to do that?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, someone [00:11:45] did tell me to do that. And also kind of watching the people around me. Even my [00:11:50] brother, for example, who doesn’t take no for an answer. And watching people [00:11:55] not fail necessarily, because I think failure is only when you give up on something. But [00:12:00] having setbacks and having challenges that you, you know, you don’t succeed at [00:12:05] and just keep keep people that keep going. Yeah, I had a lot of those people around me, [00:12:10] not necessarily in dentistry or anything medical related, and I thought I [00:12:15] just needed to be a bit more confident. And I was older at the time, so I think that helped. And [00:12:20] a week later, I got an email saying, here’s your [00:12:25] interview you’re going to have. I think it was like 12 mini stations, 12 different people. [00:12:30] It was rigorous. It was the graduate entry. So if you think about the cohort in [00:12:35] the year, it was narrowed down even more. I think there was only 16 people that [00:12:40] were being accepted for the graduate entry. And so it was even tougher to get in. [00:12:45] And I smashed the interviews. Luckily, obviously I got in and [00:12:50] that was that. And then I thought, yeah, smooth sailing. First year of [00:12:55] dental school.

Payman Langroudi: I want to kind of go back to that notion, because a lot [00:13:00] of people would get that rejection and just accept it. Um, some [00:13:05] people are more sort of go getters or something. They sort of push harder. [00:13:10] Um, and but at the bottom of all of this is kind of resilience, [00:13:15] right? And resilience might be the most important skill [00:13:20] or, you know, quality that you can have in work and life. [00:13:25] Yeah. Because eventually things tend to come around to you call [00:13:30] it by luck or coincidence or whatever, but it takes resilience for you to still [00:13:35] be around when that happens.

Sarina Kiani: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: So this sort of self-reliance [00:13:40] or the, you know, pushing a bit harder, not taking no for an answer. Where does [00:13:45] that all come from? Were you always that cat? Is that what you were like as a child?

Sarina Kiani: I think it [00:13:50] comes from my mum.

Payman Langroudi: What about your mum?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. We moved. She honestly [00:13:55] is my biggest inspiration. We moved to England from Iran when I was about three, [00:14:00] and she raised me and my brother as a single mum. There was a time when we were literally [00:14:05] homeless.

Payman Langroudi: From the get go.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So your dad was in Iran?

Sarina Kiani: No.

Payman Langroudi: He [00:14:10] came.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, he was here. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But they [00:14:15] broke down early.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. Broke down. She had to survive on her own. She hadn’t [00:14:20] finished school, and she could barely speak English. She had five jobs trying [00:14:25] to raise me and my brother, and she got us. Yeah, she would cleaning [00:14:30] post office, Anything you can think of.

Payman Langroudi: Jobs just to pay the way.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. She came [00:14:35] from being in Iran and being limousine driven to to [00:14:40] school because her her dad was a big army general in Iran. For the [00:14:45] king to then coming here and having nothing, not speaking a [00:14:50] word of English and then having to, you know, do all kinds of jobs to be able to [00:14:55] look after me and my brother. Like, I remember she would have her job, we’d wake [00:15:00] up, give us breakfast, take us to school, go to her second job, and then we would get [00:15:05] picked up, usually by other parents. Yeah. Go to their house for a few hours. So she [00:15:10] finished working. Then she’d pick us up, take us for dinner, go back to another job.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. [00:15:15]

Sarina Kiani: And I think without I don’t speak about it too much because it’s [00:15:20] a lot. But I think that’s where resilience comes [00:15:25] from. Because knowing that, you know what, you just got to push through and you’re not in [00:15:30] the nicest way possible. You’re not special. These things happen to a lot of people, and [00:15:35] it’s unfortunate, but what do you want to do? Do you want to just sit there and and feel sorry for yourself? [00:15:40] Or do you want to actually say, you know what? Yeah, sure. Those things did happen, but they were 20, [00:15:45] 25 years ago. I actually want to make a difference now in my life. I’m not going to sit [00:15:50] there being like, yeah, I had this bad experience and that’s why I’m a little bit sad [00:15:55] or I’m depressed or all these things and I’m not, you know, depression and things like that is, is different and can happen to anyone. [00:16:00] But I think resilience is just loving yourself [00:16:05] and knowing that I deserve to get everything I want in life [00:16:10] and be happy, feel at peace, feel accomplished. [00:16:15] I think happiness comes from knowing that you’ve put yourself [00:16:20] through a challenge and you achieved it. It’s not about comparing yourself to other people, which happens [00:16:25] a lot in dentistry. You know, you go online and you.

Payman Langroudi: Happens a lot in life, right?

Sarina Kiani: It happens a lot in [00:16:30] life. You go online and you’re comparing yourself constantly. Oh, maybe I should be doing this. I should be here. I should [00:16:35] be doing that. And I think comparison, like everyone says, comparison is the thief of joy. Yeah. And [00:16:40] being able to just focusing on yourself, what are you doing every day [00:16:45] that makes you feel proud? Like something small. If I put my alarm for 6 a.m. to go downstairs [00:16:50] and go to the gym or go on the treadmill, whatever it is, if I then turn off that alarm and then [00:16:55] didn’t wake, I don’t wake up that day. I know in myself I feel really disappointed in myself. [00:17:00] I’m not doing it for anyone else. I’m doing it to show myself some respect. [00:17:05] And I think that’s what makes you feel more powerful [00:17:10] as a person.

Payman Langroudi: Although, look, both of those things sound great, [00:17:15] don’t they? Resilience sounds amazing. Yeah, the self-respect thing that you’re saying sounds amazing. Yeah, but [00:17:20] have you ever suffered the downside of that behaviour too? Like are there situations that you [00:17:25] should have gotten out of, I don’t know, some boyfriend that wasn’t suitable. [00:17:30] Wasn’t good. But you stuck at it because that’s the kind of person you are. You stick at things to the [00:17:35] bitter end or you know what you’re saying about the alarm. I get it, of course, but [00:17:40] you know, there is some sort of be kind to yourself piece that you might be missing. [00:17:45] Like maybe you’re too hard on yourself in some areas. Does any of that resonate?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. If I had a [00:17:50] penny for every time someone said to me, you’re too hard on yourself, I think I’m [00:17:55] still working on it is the honest answer. I don’t think I stick at things if I’m unhappy. [00:18:00] I value my mental health and my peace a lot. [00:18:05] But definitely the first year after I was [00:18:10] so harsh on myself, I would have sleepless nights thinking about some crown. I did [00:18:15] some sensitivity, some patient got as if like that was the be all and end all [00:18:20] of life. And I really I stopped seeing any friends. I would go home, I’d be researching [00:18:25] things. I’d be trying to. I was just thinking about work all the time [00:18:30] because I thought my like you said, my it was almost like [00:18:35] my self love or my self respect was tied to how good my work was [00:18:40] or how much my patient, you know, congratulated me for something.

Payman Langroudi: Or [00:18:45] I watched my brother, my my brother was always top of his class, got straight A’s at everything. [00:18:50] And then he got to he got he’s a doctor. He got he got to a certain point where he started [00:18:55] failing exams and because he’d never failed exams in his [00:19:00] life before. Yeah. All his, as you say, sort of self respect. His identity was [00:19:05] bound up in being this super brain. And so when he started failing exams [00:19:10] he literally had a breakdown over it, you know, like something. And I had never seen him, [00:19:15] you know, weak in that way. Um, when I think about it with my own kid as well, you know, he’s [00:19:20] good at studying. He’s passed everything he’s ever done. One day, like [00:19:25] all of us, he’ll come up against, you know? You know, when you got to Kings, everyone [00:19:30] was really good at studying. Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: I, I can’t resonate with that more. [00:19:35] I when I had the scholarship to Latimer. Latimer [00:19:40] because I was, I was studying all the time during my GCSEs. [00:19:45] I really enjoyed it. But you’re right, I was equating my value to how [00:19:50] good my grades were. And coming from like a turbulent background at home, there’s [00:19:55] a lot of unrest.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the order that you found in that turbulence.

Sarina Kiani: Exactly. I thought that, [00:20:00] you know what? This is the only thing I can control. Yeah. And so I’m just going to make sure my [00:20:05] grades are amazing because I can’t really control much else that’s going on at home. And this is the only [00:20:10] thing I can control. And so when I got into Latimer, the level of intelligence [00:20:15] there and how.

Payman Langroudi: There are really motivated.

Sarina Kiani: From a young age, they have these incredible [00:20:20] role models. You know, my mom is a role model for me too, and she had a hard time. But I [00:20:25] mean, education wise, these these parents that were teaching them so much, these, [00:20:30] you know, private education, all of these things. I’d never had any of that. And so teachers, I failed [00:20:35] my A-levels really badly.

Payman Langroudi: And and it was the first time you’d really failed. [00:20:40]

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. And my entire identity shattered. It’s so true. I forgot about it. I [00:20:45] almost suppressed this memory. But you’re very right.

Payman Langroudi: How did you feel? Shame and sort [00:20:50] of shame.

Sarina Kiani: Depressed. I had this, I went into this bubble [00:20:55] of like, I wasn’t good enough just because my grades were failing. And so I was failing as a person. [00:21:00] And I kind of had this thing in my, in my brain that I’d now failed my family like I was [00:21:05] supposed to save everyone.

Payman Langroudi: Squandered the opportunity you’d been given.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, exactly. And I was so grateful [00:21:10] for this. Uh, I was so grateful for the scholarship, [00:21:15] and I felt like I’d failed. I’d I’ve disappointed everyone. They took this big [00:21:20] chance on me and I just ruined it. That’s how I felt. And it was sad.

Payman Langroudi: Out of that.

Sarina Kiani: I [00:21:25] did biomedical science where no one had this pressure. Everyone was relaxed. [00:21:30]

Payman Langroudi: So you didn’t retake your A-levels?

Sarina Kiani: No. I wanted to get out of it. I was stuck [00:21:35] in that bubble, and I thought, you know what? I need to get out. I need to shift my headspace. [00:21:40] I ended up taking, um, biomedical science just because I didn’t know what else [00:21:45] to do. On, on. What do you call it when they they add you to the list? Clearing. That’s it. I went [00:21:50] on to clearing as this kind of save me moment of I just need to get away. [00:21:55] I need to get away from this pressure I’m feeling. And it was the best thing I could have done because [00:22:00] I spent three years not really studying. I’d say I was enjoying [00:22:05] life. It felt like the.

Payman Langroudi: Pressure.

Sarina Kiani: The pressure was off Greenwich and my campus was in Kent [00:22:10] and I was enjoying life. I was a lot more relaxed. There was no more pressure [00:22:15] and I could just decide on what I wanted to do with my future without [00:22:20] feeling this kind of, you know, burden of my grades really equate to my value. [00:22:25] So I think that’s where it kind of calmed down.

Payman Langroudi: When did you become a cool cat? [00:22:30]

Sarina Kiani: Cool cat? Yeah, kind of a cool vibe.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, a bit cool. You are kind of cool. [00:22:35]

Sarina Kiani: Oh.

Payman Langroudi: You’re always cool. No. Was that a recent reinvention?

Sarina Kiani: Do you [00:22:40] know what? My school teacher. So in primary school, I [00:22:45] will never forget one parents evening. I had my teacher at [00:22:50] school told my mum. Serena’s very quietly confident and [00:22:55] growing up now, I’d say, like, 30 years later, I only just realised what she meant. [00:23:00] I’m not the loudest person in the room. I just can’t be. But I feel [00:23:05] at peace with myself inside. I don’t feel nervous around people, [00:23:10] but I’m not very loud about it. And I think cool cat.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [00:23:15] cool. I’ve translated that as cool cat.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. I’ve translated. Yeah. Thank you so much. I take that [00:23:20] as a big compliment. I think that I don’t know, I don’t know what the answer to that [00:23:25] is. Just peace in myself and maybe not so much. [00:23:30] Putting anybody on a pedestal I think helps too. I think [00:23:35] I’m always inspired by people, even at work. I’m [00:23:40] in admiration of everybody, but I never put anyone on a pedestal in the sense that I don’t [00:23:45] think they’re better than anybody else, or even with myself and anybody. [00:23:50] I’m working with my assistant. I don’t know someone that’s cleaning [00:23:55] the practice after working hours. I don’t feel like there’s a hierarchy anywhere. I [00:24:00] think that helps as well. I just see everyone as a human being. Respect them for where they [00:24:05] are and what they’ve achieved, but never feel like I can’t speak to them [00:24:10] because of it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a superpower. It’s a It’s a superpower because a lot of people sort [00:24:15] of turn things into hierarchies.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, and it.

Payman Langroudi: Becomes.

Sarina Kiani: Awkward.

Payman Langroudi: They can’t help themselves. [00:24:20] Yeah. They cannot help the idea that where am I in the pecking order? [00:24:25] And hence, where is this person in the pecking order and where is that person in the pecking order? And [00:24:30] I don’t know, I always, I always think of it like this, you know, like talking to the Nigerian guy in the toilet in [00:24:35] a nightclub. I just find myself saying, what, 45 minute conversation with that cat? Yeah, [00:24:40] yeah. And then I remember a friend of mine saying, why are you talking to that guy? You know, all right, I shouldn’t have been in the toilet. I should [00:24:45] have been out there. But he was a great guy, you know? He was. But it comes [00:24:50] naturally to some people. Yeah, and hierarchy comes naturally [00:24:55] to other people.

Sarina Kiani: Definitely. You know, and it works for them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarina Kiani: It doesn’t work for me. It makes me [00:25:00] nervous. I think as long as I see everyone as a human being and trying, I’m very good. I think [00:25:05] 1 to 1 with people. I think where that doesn’t work so well is in a big crowd, because you [00:25:10] start to feel a feel a little bit more, you know you’re trying to connect with everyone 1 to 1, but it’s harder in a crowd. I think [00:25:15] that’s where extroverts do better. Um, but I think as long as you have [00:25:20] like a human connection with someone and see them as a human, because even you know your professor, he’s [00:25:25] still a human being and go home. He might have a wife and kids, and he has very human challenges [00:25:30] he faces. And if you want to connect with someone, you might want to connect on those levels [00:25:35] instead of, okay, yeah, this this person is invented, the caries detection die, [00:25:40] you know?

Payman Langroudi: And anyway, anyway, for instance, uh, Avi Banerjee. [00:25:45] Huh?

Sarina Kiani: Oh, yes.

Payman Langroudi: Who taught you?

Sarina Kiani: I’m one of my. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was in his class.

Payman Langroudi: I was talking [00:25:50] to some of his students, and they were going, oh, Professor Banerjee is so strict and all of this. And [00:25:55] I know him as almost the softest person I’ve ever come across.

Sarina Kiani: The nicest person ever.

Payman Langroudi: Soft. [00:26:00] I mean, strict would not be the word I would I would associate with him. And so it’s so interesting because if you’re [00:26:05] in that hierarchical thinking, you go, Professor Banerjee, he wrote Picard’s manual [00:26:10] like, you know, he’s he’s this unapproachable. And yet I [00:26:15] don’t know him as that. I just know him as Avi. Avi, to me, is the softest people I’ve [00:26:20] ever come across. So sometimes those people are projecting something themselves, aren’t they? Is that they have to, I guess, in [00:26:25] that position.

Sarina Kiani: Definitely. It’s funny you should say that. I was in his class and granted, I was [00:26:30] the graduate entry. I have to say, when I was younger, maybe I wouldn’t really be this confident. [00:26:35] But in his class I felt like I could go up to him, ask him questions. [00:26:40] I felt like, yeah, he’s really approachable and he was always really nice. And no matter how stupid [00:26:45] my questions were, because I think he realised it would come from like a genuine place, whereas there’d [00:26:50] be some people that just say things for the sake of saying things or they’re trying to show off. And I think that if you’re not [00:26:55] being very authentic, you can smell. When someone’s not being authentic, then you feel [00:27:00] like you want to be mean to them in a way because you’re like, oh, just be real. Just be you. What’s wrong with you? [00:27:05] You know?

Payman Langroudi: So then entering in as a graduate. Yeah. [00:27:10] Is different to coming out of school. Definitely. And did you live [00:27:15] at home or did you live?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, I moved back in with my mum, which was amazing. [00:27:20]

Payman Langroudi: So it’s a very different university experience to your first 100% 100%. How [00:27:25] did you find it? How did you feel like you got on? I mean, anyone who says Dental school was, they found easy. [00:27:30] I just don’t believe them at all. No, dental school is hard.

Sarina Kiani: It was really hard.

Payman Langroudi: But what [00:27:35] aspects of it did you find hard? Because I found pretty much everything. Looking down on [00:27:40] microscope, I found a nightmare. The. The first exercise is just like, you know, drilling. [00:27:45] I found a nightmare. The exams I found, the volume of work. I didn’t [00:27:50] do biology A-level either. Yeah. How did you. How did you handle the actual course [00:27:55] content itself?

Sarina Kiani: The course content was hard. The first year I’d forgotten how to study because I was working [00:28:00] and I completely forgotten. So the first year it was really hard. [00:28:05] I remember after my first exam at the end of the year, I cried during these animals. I’m going to fail, I didn’t [00:28:10] fail, thank God. I don’t know how I passed, but I it was really difficult. The content [00:28:15] itself was harder than I thought, but I think at that stage I was locked in. I was like, you know what? This [00:28:20] is the degree that I actually chose to do. This is the career that I want to have. And so [00:28:25] the material was more because I want to learn this, because I want to do it tomorrow instead [00:28:30] of I need to just learn this stuff to pass. You know.

Payman Langroudi: When it got to the clinical bit.

Sarina Kiani: Then it was. [00:28:35]

Payman Langroudi: Easier and you were better.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Was always.

Sarina Kiani: 100%. Or just like physical [00:28:40] manual skills. I was a lot better in clinic than I was kind of in the [00:28:45] books. And but of course it’s important to know what the material. The hardest [00:28:50] part actually in dental school wasn’t any of that. Do you know what the hardest part of being in dental school was? [00:28:55] Being shouted at by staff and feeling about this small. Now I love [00:29:00] kings. Nothing against kings. But there were certain members of staff that, for absolutely [00:29:05] no reason, would always want to kind of instigate their authority [00:29:10] onto you. And being older than maybe some of the younger students who. Yeah, [00:29:15] they were being naughty.

Payman Langroudi: They were greeted with, you did it.

Sarina Kiani: That grated me because I thought, why are you speaking to me? I’d be like, [00:29:20] Sharon, why are you speaking to me like this? Because I think of myself. If we were outside at the pub together, [00:29:25] you, you know, we’d be having a really respectful conversation. Why are you shouting at [00:29:30] me? Because I’ve. You know, I’ve walked the wrong way around the clinic. Like, this is ridiculous.

Payman Langroudi: I did a house [00:29:35] job, and I distinctly remember six months earlier I was a student. Yeah. Six months later, [00:29:40] I was a houseman. And suddenly you’re in sort of in-between phase between student and [00:29:45] the actual teachers. Right. Yeah. And I remember talking to one of the teachers and saying he was such a lovely guy. I was [00:29:50] saying, you’re so lovely. Now. How come you weren’t lovely back, you know, then. And he [00:29:55] said something. I mean, I was 25 years ago, but he said something around. It’s justified. [00:30:00] There’s almost an abusive culture in Dental school justified by the idea [00:30:05] that it’s a high pressure job. So if you can’t take that degree of abuse from me, you’re [00:30:10] not good as a dentist, which I definitely don’t agree with.

Sarina Kiani: No, I don’t agree.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [00:30:15] where it comes from. The culture’s almost that we’re going to abuse you a little bit because you’re going to get you’re going to [00:30:20] get abuse from your patients.

Sarina Kiani: Exactly what they said. They said, if you can’t handle this, what are you going to be like as a dentist? [00:30:25] And I would say, well, actually, you know, I don’t agree with that. Thank you very much. I wouldn’t [00:30:30] be shouting at my patients. And I do understand, you know, respect [00:30:35] where respect is due, I always there’s no hierarchy. However, your professor is your [00:30:40] professor. I don’t disagree with any of that. And you should listen to the rules. I wasn’t saying, [00:30:45] you know, you shouldn’t listen to the rules, but I just didn’t understand the need for that. Kind of, like, aggressive [00:30:50] talking down at someone, belittling someone kind of behaviour. It didn’t happen [00:30:55] that often. Let’s be real. But when it did happen, it hurt. It hurt a little bit. Yeah, [00:31:00] because I can be sensitive as well, I think. And I think that hurt a little [00:31:05] bit. But it’s true. Dentistry is challenging. And you have times where patients are like that too. [00:31:10] And you’ve got to just take it on the chin and realise it’s not personal. People will always speak [00:31:15] to you in a certain way because based on their own ideas [00:31:20] of themselves, not anything to do with you. And I think you’ll find peace [00:31:25] knowing that you’re not that important in life. And whatever happens to you isn’t, you know, [00:31:30] aimed at you. It’s just everybody else is just thinking about themselves in their head. I [00:31:35] think that helps.

Payman Langroudi: When you say you could be sensitive.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, an example of that [00:31:40] where you’re over sensitive. Oh, is it over?

Sarina Kiani: How many? How long have we got?

Payman Langroudi: Is [00:31:45] it over something like someone’s words or something like that?

Sarina Kiani: Um, I think even navigating [00:31:50] work, you know, dynamics, sometimes [00:31:55] it’s difficult to take criticism. It’s really useful. And [00:32:00] when you take the emotion out of it, you’ll know that actually this is been [00:32:05] told. So for my own benefit and I will learn from this. But at the time, [00:32:10] you know, it can hurt a little bit.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Sarina Kiani: And I think.

Payman Langroudi: More than it should.

Sarina Kiani: More [00:32:15] than it should. Yeah. More than it should sometimes. But I think I’ve learned how to manage that as [00:32:20] well. A lot better than I did at the beginning of, of dentistry or [00:32:25] working really not dental school but working.

Payman Langroudi: So I don’t want to make it sound like a job [00:32:30] interview. Yeah. Yeah. But we’ve kind of kind of come across some of your super, super powers, [00:32:35] right? You’re resilient. You’ve you know yourself quite well. You know, [00:32:40] you’re interested in your piece and all of that. You’ve got a good brain on you. You can work [00:32:45] hard. You’re brilliant with people. What would you. What would you say are your biggest weaknesses? Okay. Sensitive. What else? [00:32:50]

Sarina Kiani: My biggest weaknesses and something I’m working on is definitely not [00:32:55] equating my work to my value now. So I used to do that [00:33:00] at school. My grades would be equated to my value. But I have to remind myself [00:33:05] all the time now. There’s no such thing as perfect. Stop trying to be perfect. [00:33:10] That little ledge. You know, nobody died from having a little ledge on their composite. [00:33:15] You know, anything like. That’s silly. But I think my biggest weakness right now is just [00:33:20] not focusing on perfection and being okay [00:33:25] with the journey of learning. You’re getting better every day. Stop [00:33:30] trying to be perfect right away. I think that can [00:33:35] hurt sometimes when I sit at home and I’m thinking about my work, or I take a lot of photos of my work. [00:33:40] And so I sit there and I analyse it, and I have to remove myself and be like, actually, you know what? It’s okay. [00:33:45] Just just relax.

Payman Langroudi: Usually I don’t accept that answer because, you know, that’s a classic. I’m too much of a perfectionist, [00:33:50] but I hear you. Um, it definitely slows you down as well because [00:33:55] for me, my kids go to the French school. Okay?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, yeah. A lot [00:34:00] of my friends did. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And my, my wife speaks French and, uh, they, uh, I [00:34:05] did French for six years in school. Oh, wow. I understand pretty much everything they’re saying, but I [00:34:10] won’t. But I won’t speak French. I will not speak French, because in case I get a masculine [00:34:15] and feminine wrong, and they. And they keep saying, yeah, they keep saying, look, just do it. Just [00:34:20] whatever. Who cares? We’ll correct you. But you know that level of I’m not a perfectionist at all, but in this, [00:34:25] in this area. Yeah. Um, that bit of perfectionism has held me back big time. Yeah. And [00:34:30] it’s the same with anything else you take on. Let’s say you start doing ortho. You’re [00:34:35] not going to be the best orthodontist for the next 15 years. Yeah, but does that mean I shouldn’t start doing [00:34:40] it? Yeah. And you’re going to suffer loads if that’s.

Sarina Kiani: What.

Payman Langroudi: You’re thinking about. Things. [00:34:45]

Sarina Kiani: That is 100% my biggest weakness, because I’m always trying to plan and mitigate all the [00:34:50] risks. Sometimes I prevent myself actually just doing it, and I think it’s held [00:34:55] me back from a lot of things I’ve wanted to do. Like I always imagine myself and it sounds silly, [00:35:00] but like on a stage doing presentations, not so much clinical presentations, but I [00:35:05] don’t know, working for Sensodyne even and and doing all these things. And I was like, no, you [00:35:10] know. Yeah, but you’ve got to do A, B and C before you can do that. And it’s held me back a lot. [00:35:15] You’re right. And when I compare myself to my brother, for example, who just doesn’t [00:35:20] worry about those things and goes for it and just does it.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about him a little bit, because I’m [00:35:25] fascinated by him. Um, I’ve never met him. I drive past his tattoo shop, which, for anyone [00:35:30] who hasn’t seen this, one of the most impressive shops.

Sarina Kiani: Have you been inside?

Payman Langroudi: I’ve [00:35:35] stared.

Sarina Kiani: It’s got like, a pool table. It’s insane.

Payman Langroudi: He’s just the most amazing shop I’ve seen [00:35:40] in ages. I’ve often almost crashed my car looking into it. But when [00:35:45] you turned to studies, did he turn to street culture or something? How did you end [00:35:50] up in tattoos?

Sarina Kiani: Uh, he art. Actually.

Payman Langroudi: Art.

Sarina Kiani: He was an artist. Well, he is an [00:35:55] artist. He doesn’t actually do any of the tattoos himself. He does the designs. So [00:36:00] he used to do these incredible paintings and very. He used to sit [00:36:05] there for hours on end. He’s. I think he’s got ADHD. His his brain couldn’t focus on [00:36:10] studying. And that wasn’t his thing. He didn’t like it. Fair enough. He was very artistic and creative. [00:36:15] And so he would do everything. He was one of those people who had his fingers in a lot of pies, and [00:36:20] he still does. So he would go and buy something on eBay and sell it for more expensive. [00:36:25] At the same time. He’d be painting a painting at the same time. He’d have another part time job. [00:36:30] He was just one of those people just completely doing things, constantly doing things. He will have [00:36:35] an idea now and tomorrow he’ll execute it. He wouldn’t be worrying about, you know. Yeah, [00:36:40] but this could go wrong and that could go wrong. He just does it. He just calls the people and does it, and he’ll make mistakes [00:36:45] on the way. But at least he’s doing it. And I and I think that is what I need to learn 100%, [00:36:50] just to go for it and not worry so much. Um, but yeah, he’s.

Payman Langroudi: Older than [00:36:55] you.

Sarina Kiani: Just a few years. Yeah, three, three a year.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just the two of you?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, just the two of us? Yeah. [00:37:00]

Payman Langroudi: So are we going to see a gigantic dental practice [00:37:05] opening up? The way he’s done his tattoo shop. I mean. [00:37:10]

Sarina Kiani: He asked him. He asked me about that all the time.

Payman Langroudi: No. Listen, I’m sure you [00:37:15] haven’t got plans tomorrow to do it right? But. But if you did open [00:37:20] up a dental practice.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got an idea of what you would want it to be, like, [00:37:25] 100%? Really? Really.

Sarina Kiani: I’m have a big vision on the brand [00:37:30] I am, and the kind of brand I would create if I created anything. If [00:37:35] I created a toothpaste tomorrow, I know exactly what that toothpaste would be and who it would be [00:37:40] for.

Payman Langroudi: We can talk about it. Yeah, I keep on telling you not [00:37:45] to, but. Good. Yeah. Go on, go on.

Sarina Kiani: I think it would be [00:37:50] quiet. Quiet. Confidence is what would the brand [00:37:55] would be peaceful, clean girl era which is like popular now on on TikTok [00:38:00] and things like that. And but it’s more than that. It’s having beautiful [00:38:05] little things that you appreciate and you [00:38:10] admire and you find that, [00:38:15] you know, make your day. Having a really nice skincare for me, for example, [00:38:20] like really makes my day knowing that I’m going to use this beautiful packaging [00:38:25] that I’ve just opened up and I’m going to use this beautiful skincare, all these little things during the day give [00:38:30] me this like endorphin rush. So I think if I were to create something, [00:38:35] it would have the same feel that you feel. You know, it’s very beautiful and it’s very [00:38:40] well designed and obviously, you know, good quality too and all [00:38:45] these things. But I’m not sure about dental practice just yet. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [00:38:50] so this place that you’re describing isn’t a dental practice?

Sarina Kiani: No, this is more. If I were to create something, [00:38:55] a brand. Yeah. Yeah, I think.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s a similar idea anyway. Right. [00:39:00] So are you saying you you don’t want to ever open a dental practice? Have you ruled [00:39:05] it out?

Sarina Kiani: I’m not sure I do. Yeah, I haven’t ruled it out. I [00:39:10] think that leaning.

Payman Langroudi: Away from it.

Sarina Kiani: You know, I graduated two years ago, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, certainly. [00:39:15]

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. I’m not trying to rush yet, but I [00:39:20] think if I ever did open one, it would be that kind of vibe.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:39:25] mean, well, you know, there’s, there’s disadvantages and this advantages to being qualified. [00:39:30] Two years ago. Yeah. And people whenever I say that, people say, well what advantage could there be to being [00:39:35] two years out. But the biggest advantage I know is you’re still closer to being [00:39:40] a human than than dentist. Yeah. That’s true. And we all, a lot of us forget what [00:39:45] it’s like to be a patient. Mhm. A consumer. In fact, one of maybe Rona’s [00:39:50] superpower is she has never forgotten that. Yeah. And so you know, but that [00:39:55] that idea that the reason I’m asking you about what would be your dream practice at this [00:40:00] stage is because you’re so much closer to being a regular person. Give it another ten years of being a dentist. [00:40:05] And often we forget we people. People forget what it’s like to be a normal person [00:40:10] before they even qualify as a dentist, because they jump into that persona of doctor. [00:40:15]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: I think yeah. It’s true. The [00:40:20] less you know, the more you can just be yourself and not know. [00:40:25] I mean, I’m not talking about the dentistry side of things, but if I, you [00:40:30] know, don’t know the CEO of this really big brand that much in my head, then I’m not as nervous [00:40:35] of just going up to them at an event. Does that make sense? I think one of the superpowers [00:40:40] of naivety, maybe you might call it, is that you [00:40:45] will just do.

Payman Langroudi: Things that you don’t worry about.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, worry about [00:40:50] it less because you don’t know so much. You don’t know what you don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarina Kiani: So you just do it. And [00:40:55] then obviously other people would be like.

Payman Langroudi: It’s almost like beginner’s luck, you know, like beginner’s luck is a real thing. Yeah, [00:41:00] yeah. And what it is, is that you focus in on just one thing only. And [00:41:05] by focusing on one thing, you can execute that one thing, you know, like, sometimes the [00:41:10] first time you swing a golf club, you hit it all a long way away. And then [00:41:15] after six months of playing golf, you can’t do it as much. Yeah. That’s true. It’s a real thing.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, definitely. [00:41:20]

Payman Langroudi: So you got through dental school. What was your [00:41:25] first job?

Sarina Kiani: First job after dental school? I had two, so I [00:41:30] worked for a little mini corporate. And I also worked for Midea. How did I get [00:41:35] those jobs?

Payman Langroudi: I was post PhD, right?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. Post Post-phd.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry, PhD. Like, who was your boss [00:41:40] there?

Sarina Kiani: Uh, I had an incredible boss. Kamal Farooqi. [00:41:45]

Payman Langroudi: First boss is such.

Sarina Kiani: An important person. Amazing person. [00:41:50] Learned so much from him. Very chilled guy and very high quality. So takes [00:41:55] a lot of, um, you know, pride in his work, which I admire.

Payman Langroudi: I love London.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. [00:42:00] London. Southall. So really busy. Huge practice. [00:42:05] Very high needs area. So I was literally thrown into the deep end. And [00:42:10] I was doing minimum two root canals and extractions on each patient every [00:42:15] single day. Wow. There was a lot, but.

Payman Langroudi: But you learned a lot.

Sarina Kiani: I learned so [00:42:20] much. And I also learned exactly what I don’t want to do for the rest of my life, [00:42:25] too, because I thought, you know what? If this was me, or if this was my mum, I [00:42:30] wouldn’t want them. I wouldn’t want to do the root canal on them. And I from that [00:42:35] day after my PhD day, I literally was like, I’m never going to do a root canal. Ever again in my life. And [00:42:40] I also said to myself that the only way for me to. Achieve the kind of work I want to [00:42:45] do is if I don’t continue with the NHS anymore. And I think [00:42:50] as incredible as the NHS was for teaching me so much, I was just [00:42:55] a little bit older and I thought, you know what, I don’t really want to continue with this. I need [00:43:00] to throw myself into the deep end for what the end goal is, which is working privately. And so I just took the [00:43:05] plunge. Called literally 120 practices. I had little black book of [00:43:10] all their names.

Payman Langroudi: Many of whom you knew from your.

Sarina Kiani: Many of them who I had maybe even seen once. [00:43:15] I wouldn’t be as stretched to say I knew them, but I’d seen them. I feel like I [00:43:20] built a little bit of a connection with them, and I just went and knocked. I messaged so [00:43:25] many friends, a lot of which were like dental nurses or hygienists. Hey, do [00:43:30] you know anyone that might hire? I heard a lot of no’s, obviously, as you would. I turned [00:43:35] up to one of the practices that I got the job, the mini corporate. I just turned up. I wasn’t getting any [00:43:40] responses from the emails. It was down the road from my mom’s. So I turned up one day with [00:43:45] a little USB drive with like my portfolio of work. I would take pictures as well during my [00:43:50] PhD year. I would take pictures of everything and anything as horrendous [00:43:55] as it looked. And when I look back now, I think, what the hell was that? My first ever composite bonding case [00:44:00] was horrendous and I took, but I took pictures of it. And I also put in handwritten [00:44:05] reviews from patients because in South Hall a lot of patients, their English wasn’t [00:44:10] very good and they couldn’t go on, you know, Google and leave me reviews. I would get them to write [00:44:15] handwritten reviews, and I would take a picture of it, and I’d put it in this like PowerPoint presentation [00:44:20] that I took on a USB stick with me everywhere. And I got.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, I got the job from [00:44:25] the first job that I got, the little mini corporate. He actually said to me, [00:44:30] I can’t believe you turned up because he also was the clinical director for like 15 [00:44:35] practices. So this is what I mean about I didn’t know what I didn’t know. If I knew that, [00:44:40] maybe I would have been a bit more nervous. But at the time I didn’t know. I just thought he was, you know, the main guy at [00:44:45] that practice went there and I said, hi, do you have five minutes? He’s like, not really. But I [00:44:50] said, please, you know, I’ll come back when you have five minutes. Um, and he sat down with me. I plugged [00:44:55] in my little USB and I showed him, honestly, the worst work ever. But he just said I hired you not because of your [00:45:00] work, but because you had the courage to come and knock on my door [00:45:05] and actually ask me for a job.

Payman Langroudi: So there we go again. Yeah, yeah, there we go again. You [00:45:10] pushing and resilience and and I remember I, I never I [00:45:15] only applied for jobs where there were jobs. Never did I go somewhere and say have you got [00:45:20] a job. Yeah. Um, but you went to 100 people. Yeah. 100. That’s, [00:45:25] you know, 98 nose as well. Yeah. Bearing in mind, you know, that that resilience, [00:45:30] right?

Sarina Kiani: Genuinely, that comes from naivety as well, I’d say. Yeah. I think it goes back to what you [00:45:35] said, because the less you know, I didn’t have a lot of friends [00:45:40] in dentistry in the sense that, you know, my mum wasn’t a dentist, my dad wasn’t a dentist. So I didn’t really know [00:45:45] how things work that.

Payman Langroudi: I kind of knew from your GSK days that you could just show up at reception and say, [00:45:50] someone around.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, actually, that’s so true because I would cold call, I would have to go to reception [00:45:55] and working for GSK as a rep, I learned very quickly that the [00:46:00] boss is not the principal dentist. The boss is the receptionist, the [00:46:05] manager at the practice who often is got nothing to do with dentistry. And if [00:46:10] you’re sweet with them, just by being genuine and being nice to people and just having a real conversation. Oh. [00:46:15] Hi, Sharon. How was your kids? You know, he’s, you know, some samples or whatever it was. I [00:46:20] learned that they are the gatekeepers. So when I wanted a job, it was the same. [00:46:25] I’d go, I’d be real with the people at the door. Not just be friendly to the [00:46:30] dentist who’s going to give me the job and then ignore everybody else like they don’t exist? I think, [00:46:35] yeah, I think that helped too.

Payman Langroudi: It does. I mean, that’s the first thing we tell our people [00:46:40] when they join here about the managers and the receptionists [00:46:45] being the key people. Um, and I mean, it’s weird, man, because some dentists [00:46:50] tell their receptionists keep everyone away.

Sarina Kiani: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you [00:46:55] know. Yeah. Join join me on the supplier side now. Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah that’s. [00:47:00]

Payman Langroudi: True. Some some dentists tell them that some choose to like what you just said there. [00:47:05] They almost exert power over the ones they don’t like. [00:47:10] And the opposite over the ones they do like. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s where you got in by [00:47:15] being lovely and respectful and remembering people’s names and children and all of that. Yeah. [00:47:20] Um, but for me, it’s a funny one. Now, you’re a dentist. You can sort of look at it from the other side. Yeah. Salespeople [00:47:25] have a bunch of information, a bunch of information [00:47:30] that they can. I would look at now, if I was a dentist again, I would look at salespeople as educators because [00:47:35] they know at least they know about the market, right? They know they know about best practice. They know so [00:47:40] and so in reading is doing this amazing thing that, you know, you could learn from. They know about [00:47:45] their product, their product specialists, right? So they can explain how to sell that product or the [00:47:50] benefits are so, you know, and yeah, maybe once in a while they’ll ask you to buy something. Yeah. [00:47:55] But a lot of lot of dentists have this idea that salespeople should be kept away because I’m busy [00:48:00] being a dentist, you know, and then they’ll go on a weekend course for education, you know, see [00:48:05] them. Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, yeah. And realise actually that it’s probably a good thing if you’re, you know, [00:48:10] friends with them.

Payman Langroudi: And did you have in your head any idea of the type [00:48:15] of dentist you wanted to be?

Sarina Kiani: I met a lot of amazing. Yeah, I met a [00:48:20] lot of amazing dentists and even mehedi himself.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Who were the are the standout ones that you [00:48:25] met? Right? Mehdi.

Sarina Kiani: Definitely. Mehdi. Yeah, definitely.

Payman Langroudi: What was it about him?

Sarina Kiani: Even [00:48:30] now, I still work for him. His enthusiasm [00:48:35] every single day. His positive energy. I’m not saying, you know, [00:48:40] fake it, but sometimes you do got to fake it till you make it. And I think just [00:48:45] how much he loves everything he does. I think that stands out. You [00:48:50] know, you meet some people and they’re energy vampires, and you meet other people, and they motivate [00:48:55] you and they give you. Yeah, they give you energy just by. They’re not trying to do it. They’re just being [00:49:00] themselves. They’re just genuinely happy having a great day and it rubs off on you. [00:49:05] And I think people like that definitely.

Payman Langroudi: I think look there is some faking [00:49:10] it as well. Yeah. Because sometimes you’ve had a terrible morning and you come to your business [00:49:15] and then you kind of put your face on for your business and yeah, you know, say, say [00:49:20] hi to people and smile and so on. There is an element of it 100%. Um, at [00:49:25] the same time, he he is a very positive person. Who else? What other kind of traits? [00:49:30]

Sarina Kiani: Uh, Luke Athwal very good friend of mine.

Payman Langroudi: One thing. Are you his friend from from GSK [00:49:35] as well?

Sarina Kiani: No. Do you know what? I became friends with him just through Instagram. So more.

Payman Langroudi: Of [00:49:40] him.

Sarina Kiani: Oh, we just started kind of messaging. We had a lot [00:49:45] of mutual friends and actually we started going to like Ibiza together with these groups of friends [00:49:50] and just being like, genuinely friends. Nothing to.

Payman Langroudi: Do.

Sarina Kiani: With dentistry. Amazing. [00:49:55] What I love about him is he’s such a cool, cool cucumber. That’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Cool. [00:50:00]

Sarina Kiani: Cat. Yeah. Cool cat. He’s a cool cat. And even the kind [00:50:05] of challenges he faces and how relaxed he is, I think that’s my favourite trait. That’s [00:50:10] something I look at even today and I think, yeah, definitely need to be more like that. Even when things go wrong. [00:50:15] Or, you know, patients can be a bit challenging. I think being a cool cat and [00:50:20] reminding myself that, you know what? He’s got a lot more stress than I do and a lot [00:50:25] more complex cases than he’s a cool cat. That means I can be a cool cat. I think that as well. And [00:50:30] obviously Rona during Covid, watching her transform the practice, because [00:50:35] I was in the practice when the practice wasn’t renovated yet. Yeah. Didn’t [00:50:40] have such a big number of staff. I watched it kind of blossom [00:50:45] and grow so much. And to what it is today is insane.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an extraordinary [00:50:50] practice. It really is. Um, and her connection to all the [00:50:55] movers and shakers in London.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is amazing. Yeah, [00:51:00] definitely. It is amazing. Um, what are the patient groups like in [00:51:05] these different practices? I mean, so these ones are very sort of family practice. Where is it? Twickenham.

Sarina Kiani: Twickenham [00:51:10] and Hampton.

Payman Langroudi: So is it, as you would expect, just families, kids?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, I’d say [00:51:15] a lot of very genuinely nice people. Reasonable I describe as because in [00:51:20] dentistry things don’t always go to plan. You know, cram might have not come on the day.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. [00:51:25] And I think that helps. Really helps a lot of very reasonable people. [00:51:30] Um, yeah. Very educated, very nice. It [00:51:35] makes going to work. You need to have, I think, two, two things. A good boss and [00:51:40] good patience. And then that makes the day a lot nicer. And I think definitely [00:51:45] at his practice he’s cultivated that. I think you are your tribe. So you attract [00:51:50] what kind of energy you give out. And I think a lot of his patients are very similar.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re [00:51:55] still working both practices.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah I.

Payman Langroudi: Do. So I mean, maybe I’m wrong, but are the prices much higher [00:52:00] at Rona’s?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, there are different pricing, different location. Um, but the quality of work is [00:52:05] the same.

Payman Langroudi: So how does that feel?

Sarina Kiani: At the start, [00:52:10] it felt wrong asking patients for so much money.

Payman Langroudi: But you [00:52:15] get used to it very quickly.

Sarina Kiani: You get used to it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: Because you realise that I can’t. This is. This [00:52:20] is the price. Because this is the practice I work at. It’s not my practice. And also you realise that actually, [00:52:25] you know what, with all the effort I’m putting in and knowing that I’m going to give my 110% [00:52:30] because I know me, I think, why not? This is worth it. I know how much I’m going [00:52:35] to care about this tooth for you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Sarina Kiani: So it is worth it.

Payman Langroudi: I found the acceleration [00:52:40] was exciting, right? When you when you change jobs and go to a practice where the prices are [00:52:45] much higher for about the first month, you’re whispering. It’s so exciting. [00:52:50]

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s really exciting that that feeling that I used to do for £140, that I’m doing for 299, [00:52:55] or that crown that I was doing for 700. Now I’m doing for 1400 [00:53:00] or something. Yeah, and for about a month. It’s super exciting. You think [00:53:05] you’re doing numbers in your head and you think, wow, this is going to be amazing. And then very quickly it [00:53:10] all becomes very normal.

Sarina Kiani: Can I be honest?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: Can I be completely honest? And this might sound [00:53:15] very, very naive. Yeah, I don’t think about the numbers at all. [00:53:20] I’m in a privileged position where obviously I’m making enough to, you know, [00:53:25] get by and I’m good. But I never look at the numbers. I don’t I never [00:53:30] think about it. I should and my husband says to me all the time, I should too, but [00:53:35] I try not to focus on it. I think I’m at a stage right now.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t focus on.

Sarina Kiani: It. I focus more on, [00:53:40] you know, the experience. Yeah. The lab. How am I going to do this treatment? Which lab is better? Should [00:53:45] I go and watch, you know, Stuart next door doing his incredible restorative work and learning [00:53:50] from him and all these things. Should I go and speak to Mitchell about the best way to fix the gums? All these [00:53:55] things? I think my headspace is is there. So I don’t think too much about the numbers. I [00:54:00] should think about the numbers.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t think about the numbers during the day.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But at the end of the day, [00:54:05] tot up your numbers. Yeah, that’s good practice, man. That’s good practice for everyone. [00:54:10] But but another interesting thing is, if I can give you a piece of advice in [00:54:15] your that’s so early on in your career. Yeah. Learn how to give completely [00:54:20] painless injections.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Completely painless injections. And the [00:54:25] the word of mouth you’ll get from that. Yeah. Because very few of us [00:54:30] dentists give completely painless injections. Yeah. And I experienced it myself. [00:54:35] My wife gave me an injection 25 years after I became a dentist. [00:54:40] And I felt zero. I felt nothing. The first I felt of it was when it started going [00:54:45] numb. Yeah. And it’s a very simple thing. Dry the area.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:54:50]

Payman Langroudi: Topical for full. 5 or 6 minutes. Five. Six minutes of topical. And in that [00:54:55] 5 or 6 minutes. Thank God in private practice, we can make relationships. We can talk. We can discuss [00:55:00] hopes and dreams, holidays, failures. You know, talking to patients. Very important in [00:55:05] private practice.

[TRANSITION]: Part of my work. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So five, six full minutes of this [00:55:10] Topical on dry mucosa and then very [00:55:15] slowly, very, very, very slowly, almost five, six minutes of pushing that plunger.

[TRANSITION]: In.

Sarina Kiani: The cartilages. [00:55:20]

[TRANSITION]: As well.

Sarina Kiani: I heat those up. I’m not gonna lie. I think I am good at.

[TRANSITION]: That. [00:55:25]

Sarina Kiani: Because I. You’re right. I’ve even had people come to me and said, oh, I’ve heard you’re [00:55:30] very good with anxious patients. I get a lot of anxious patients. I had a patient come in the other [00:55:35] day. She come, she come three hours just to see me because she saw a [00:55:40] review on my TikTok.

[TRANSITION]: The word of mouth, the word.

Payman Langroudi: Of mouth from anxious patients goes.

[TRANSITION]: Quick. [00:55:45]

Sarina Kiani: Judgement pain free.

[TRANSITION]: You.

Sarina Kiani: Know, taking your time.

Payman Langroudi: Even silly things [00:55:50] like when you first put your hands in their mouth, do it very gently. Even something as silly as [00:55:55] that.

[TRANSITION]: I’ve got.

Sarina Kiani: Freakishly small hands.

[TRANSITION]: So sometimes.

Sarina Kiani: People call up the practice and they’re like, I [00:56:00] want to be seen by Serena. I swear this has happened a few times, especially at Maddie’s. They [00:56:05] say I need Serena to see me because I’ve seen the pictures of pictures of her. And I need someone with small [00:56:10] hands.

[TRANSITION]: Genuinely.

Sarina Kiani: I’ve got the world’s smallest.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:56:15] funny because there are occasions in the industry where it’s incorrect to be gentle. Yeah, there [00:56:20] are times where you have to push some matrix down, some gingerly, quite hard or whatever it is. Yeah. There [00:56:25] are times where good dentistry is not gentle. Yeah, yeah. But gentle dentistry [00:56:30] is always good. It’s one of those things. It’s such a big practice builder that news [00:56:35] travels so quickly almost within families as well, because whole families are nervous [00:56:40] together because they’ve all told each other stories. Um, and then whole families tell other [00:56:45] nervous families, and people follow my wife around. I mean, only [00:56:50] for that reason. I mean, she’s a nice person and all that, but it’s a big factor.

[TRANSITION]: It is a big factor. [00:56:55]

Payman Langroudi: Big, big, big factor.

Sarina Kiani: I mean, if you saw me and you thought [00:57:00] I told you I’m going to stick a needle in your mouth, I think most people wouldn’t be [00:57:05] nervous. I think this goes back to what I was saying about brand. I think that [00:57:10] if you are a personable person and you’re calm and you’re [00:57:15] genuinely just in everyday life, like, I’ll go to the gym and I’ll meet someone or I’ll go [00:57:20] to, you know, a coffee shop, and I’ll speak to someone. I might ask me, what do [00:57:25] I do? And I tell them, I’m a dentist. They’re surprised and they think, oh, genuinely. [00:57:30] I’ve heard people say, oh, I’d want to come and see you. You seem nice because [00:57:35] most people are scared by going to the dentist. They’re nervous. They don’t know what’s going on in their [00:57:40] mouth. It’s quite a big thing, trusting someone to be inside your mouth [00:57:45] and not knowing what’s going on. And I think that, yeah, 100% you do get followed [00:57:50] around. If someone feels like they are in good hands, or that they can trust [00:57:55] you, or that you’re calm, you’re a nice person. Nice person works too. Or [00:58:00] you’re funny. Sometimes I think I’m funny.

[TRANSITION]: Funny looking.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, [00:58:05] I think it helps.

Payman Langroudi: So the patience that Chelsea must be quite demanding.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm. [00:58:10]

Payman Langroudi: And you’re newly qualified. You must have had [00:58:15] some concerns about that. Have you now figured it out. Like what you need to do, [00:58:20] say and do and when you need to ask for help and this sort of thing. How are you. How are you managing [00:58:25] that?

Sarina Kiani: You know, no one has said, oh, did you just graduate? No one’s ever said that to [00:58:30] me. Have you? Newly graduated? No. I might look it.

Payman Langroudi: No, you don’t look it. [00:58:35] But.

[TRANSITION]: But I think.

Payman Langroudi: How do you negotiate it yourself? When you have a patient who’s demanding and you’ve got a job [00:58:40] that looks difficult.

Sarina Kiani: Look, I know my limitations. So after a console, I can [00:58:45] kind of gauge suss someone out a little bit. And I think that if they’re very aesthetically driven [00:58:50] or very aesthetically demanding, I know that maybe right now they might not be the best [00:58:55] person for me to treat. I know my limitations. I also know what everybody [00:59:00] in the what everybody else in the team is good is good at doing, and so I’m good at delegating. [00:59:05] You know, if I, I think the case is a little bit tricky. Send them straight to the orthodontist [00:59:10] specialist. If I think that this is a full veneer case, you [00:59:15] know, tend to top teeth, then I’ll send them to Rhona [00:59:20] or Luke or Stuart. You know, so I think delegating and knowing your [00:59:25] weaknesses is is smart.

Payman Langroudi: Hard to know, though, isn’t.

[TRANSITION]: It, because.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t know [00:59:30] how good you are at something until you’ve done it?

Sarina Kiani: I think if you’ve done it, yeah, if you’ve done [00:59:35] it a few times and you feel more confident, I just gauge on [00:59:40] the kind of energy the patient is giving me, how demanding they are, and correlate that [00:59:45] with how much experience have I got in doing this? Am I.

[TRANSITION]: Going to be do you think.

Payman Langroudi: You sort of empathetically [00:59:50] like, are you an empath?

[TRANSITION]: Can you can you 100%? I can sense.

Sarina Kiani: When someone’s. [00:59:55]

[TRANSITION]: See.

Sarina Kiani: That’s also a weakness because if I don’t get so at Chelsea, sometimes you [01:00:00] might not get that huge reaction that you might get somewhere else. You know where some people are really [01:00:05] grateful. Obviously, they’ve paid a lot of money. The standards.

[TRANSITION]: Are different. Expect high standards. Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: So, you [01:00:10] know, they might not look in the mirror and start crying.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: So sometimes you think, oh, oh. [01:00:15] You’re like.

[TRANSITION]: You have this moment inside where you’re like, why are you.

Sarina Kiani: Not crying.

[TRANSITION]: At the.

Sarina Kiani: Transformation [01:00:20] that I’ve just done? Um, and you, you know, because I’m such an [01:00:25] empath, I can feel it. You know, if a patient comes through the door and they’re being a little bit short with me, I instantly [01:00:30] think, oh, my God, you know, they don’t. You know, they might not like me or something. I’m working on that too. [01:00:35] That happens, I think, a lot. And learning to separate yourself from their reactions [01:00:40] is important too.

Payman Langroudi: So when you’re working [01:00:45] in a practice like Chelsea.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you not [01:00:50] come across a situation where there must be some sort of borderline [01:00:55] situations? Right. Like there’s going to be things you’re doing for the first time. [01:01:00]

[TRANSITION]: Should I give you an example of where.

Sarina Kiani: Communication broke down? Because I keep talking about how [01:01:05] amazing I am at communication.

[TRANSITION]: Actually.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes the podcast.

Sarina Kiani: Sometimes things don’t always [01:01:10] pan out how you want.

[TRANSITION]: And you have.

Sarina Kiani: To also realise that that’s okay too. No one died. You know, [01:01:15] I had an instance where a patient was running late quite [01:01:20] significantly, and I had a full diary. I had another patient coming in and [01:01:25] my go to kind of my predisposition isn’t to be, you know, judgemental. [01:01:30] What the hell are you doing? And being right. It’s always like, oh, I wonder if they’re okay.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: Do you think they might be [01:01:35] able to make the appointment? Do they even want to know they’re paying a lot? Do they even want to maybe change the [01:01:40] day? That’s what in my head, my thought process. Right. So I called the patient, and I’m like, you [01:01:45] know, I’ve noticed you’re running late. Are you okay? Do you still want to come? Yes. I’m coming. Very [01:01:50] short, very blunt. I’m like, oh, okay. Put the phone down. They come there about [01:01:55] half an hour late to a 45 minute appointment. Now we’ve got 15 minutes. Now I can’t really do much. [01:02:00] You’re going to pay the full amount for that 45 minutes, and I’m not going to be able to give you everything [01:02:05] I would have if you actually had the time. And so they come and I say, oh, you know, are you okay? [01:02:10] Just being my general empathetic self. Right. Doesn’t work for some people. [01:02:15] You were you know you were. Now I’ve only got 15 minutes. Are you okay to continue [01:02:20] with the appointment? Why are you reminding me that I’m late? This is so out of order. So disrespectful. [01:02:25] And I’m like, whoa, wait. What? And go. We’re doing the [01:02:30] appointment. Everything’s so frosty. I’m in her mouth. It’s very awkward, I feel uncomfortable, [01:02:35] the nurse is uncomfortable. I can feel the tension in the air.

Sarina Kiani: So me being me, I. [01:02:40] After I sit her up, I’m like, I’m really sorry if I offended you. Makes it worse. Um, [01:02:45] makes it worse sometimes. Don’t address the elephant in the room. I learned that the hard way, too. [01:02:50] She. She left anyway. It broke down. She wrote [01:02:55] an email to the practice saying I was I was, um, you know, disappointed. [01:03:00] I was being reminded that I was late. And in my head I’m thinking, oh my God, no. Like, I [01:03:05] was trying to see if you even wanted to have the appointment shortened, you know, because I’m not going [01:03:10] to be able to do everything we’d planned to do. That was my thought process. And then I learned, you know what? Don’t [01:03:15] speak so much sometimes. Don’t just leave it. You don’t have to [01:03:20] always be someone’s best friend. You know, you’re empathetic in your head, but in someone else’s head that has [01:03:25] obviously come across the wrong way. And that’s okay, too. And that was a hard pill to swallow [01:03:30] because I would I would go home and think, oh my God, like, now she’s upset with me for all this thing. [01:03:35] And I realised that everyone’s perception is different. Their reality [01:03:40] is different. I might have not meant any harm, but obviously it [01:03:45] didn’t come across that way. And that’s okay.

Payman Langroudi: I bet you the same patient, if you’re five [01:03:50] minutes late for them, go berserk as well.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, and I wasn’t even telling them off. I was just trying to make sure. [01:03:55]

[TRANSITION]: They were okay. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to that darker part of the pod.

[TRANSITION]: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Darkness [01:04:00] stakes.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm. Mistakes?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Clinical errors.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:04:05]

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind when I say clinical error. What happened and what did you learn or [01:04:10] what can we all learn. You know that’s the point of it isn’t it.

Sarina Kiani: Let me paint you a picture.

[TRANSITION]: Payman.

Sarina Kiani: It [01:04:15] was my first day in my first private [01:04:20] job.

Payman Langroudi: Midi.

Sarina Kiani: Midi. [01:04:25] Yeah. First zirconia crown that I was [01:04:30] going to prep for. First big treatment. That was my first big treat. Private treatment I [01:04:35] was ever going to do. Patient comes in. Give them my ID block. [01:04:40] Big. Very tall, big gentleman. Very nice guy. I [01:04:45] always wait about ten, 15 minutes, sit them upright, wait all [01:04:50] the usual. And then I’m checking. Is he numb? It’s not numb. Okay. [01:04:55] Give him a little bit more. Wait another five, ten minutes. He says he’s numb. [01:05:00] Tongue feels a bit numb. Lip feels a bit numb. Okay, fine. Give the rest. [01:05:05] Sit him back down. Take the burr to his tooth. And he jumps in [01:05:10] the air like he. He screeches and my heart sinks. I’m thinking, oh my God, [01:05:15] he’s not numb. There’s no way. What’s happened? Give him a little bit more. Give [01:05:20] him a little bit more. A little bit more ID?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Again.

Sarina Kiani: Uh.

[TRANSITION]: Buckle [01:05:25] ligament or.

Sarina Kiani: Ligament? I tried everything in the book.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm. [01:05:30]

Sarina Kiani: And every time I’d take the drill, he’d jump again. And I thought, oh my [01:05:35] God, this isn’t going to work. I sat him up and I said, look I can’t prep the tooth today. [01:05:40] You’re just not numbing up. And at that point, you know, some time has gone by and I see [01:05:45] that he can’t close his mouth. He’s unable to, like, really close his close his mouth and [01:05:50] he starts to say, I can’t swallow Serena. I’m like, oh my God, I’m panicking because I’m thinking, [01:05:55] you know what? This is the first Crown prep in my private job, and I’ve ruined it. I’m [01:06:00] going to stop dentistry. I’m going to give up dentistry. It’s not for me. And he goes home. So I rebook [01:06:05] the appointment. I’m thinking, oh, it’s all fine. He calls. We’re just about to close. This is a [01:06:10] Saturday, by the way. He calls. We’re just about to close. I need to come back in. I can’t breathe, I don’t [01:06:15] feel well. He comes back in. Everyone else is left. By the way, all the other dentists. There’s only one other dentist [01:06:20] and he’s. He’s left. He comes back. I call the other dentist. I’m like, please turn around. I don’t know how to [01:06:25] manage this. I’m a bit worried. And he comes in. One of my colleagues, bless him, he comes back [01:06:30] and he checks. He checks his airways, he checks everything. Does the standard, you know, procedure [01:06:35] in this. At this point I am shitting myself. But I [01:06:40] am very good at not showing that I’m shitting myself. So I’m like, no, it’s fine. You know, these things happen sometimes. [01:06:45] We have given you a lot of anaesthetic, But inside I am dying. I’m crying. I’m [01:06:50] thinking I’m giving up dentistry. I’m already thinking in my head of all the other careers I might want to pursue. And [01:06:55] anyway, my obviously very experienced colleague is able to calm [01:07:00] him down, give him some water and he’s totally fine. He sends him home.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a panic.

Sarina Kiani: Attack. [01:07:05] I have a panic attack. Yeah, he’s having a panic attack. What’s going on? What was going on? I think he had a little bit of a panic [01:07:10] attack. I’m having a panic attack. Yeah. He leaves, I’m shaking. I’m. [01:07:15] Someone’s then bringing water for me because I’m panicking, I go home. I [01:07:20] didn’t sleep all weekend because I was waiting to call him back on Monday, make sure he was okay. And [01:07:25] yeah, of course he’s okay. Comes back, obviously spend the rest of the week planning [01:07:30] the the type of lay I’m going to give him that’s going to work this time. And [01:07:35] lo and behold, yeah, it does work because I did something differently and it was all okay. And luckily [01:07:40] Touchwood, he was good. He was a good patient. It couldn’t have happened on a better patient, you know. [01:07:45] But it was a good learning curve because I.

Payman Langroudi: Spent the learning point.

Sarina Kiani: The learning [01:07:50] point.

Payman Langroudi: Differently.

Sarina Kiani: Nothing that these things happen that actually why have [01:07:55] I just ruined. I ruined my entire weekend worrying about it and not sleeping, and I probably [01:08:00] ruined everyone else’s weekend. That was around me, worrying about it and realising that these things [01:08:05] happen and it’s okay. And it probably happen again. Probably not the same mistake, but [01:08:10] something will go wrong again and it’s okay.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I like it, I like it because [01:08:15] it’s a bit different. Yeah, but it’s not enough. I mean.

Sarina Kiani: You want to get darker.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got any darker ones?

Sarina Kiani: Not [01:08:20] yet.

Payman Langroudi: Genuinely management issues I mean like that previous one. That was a good one. Any other management [01:08:25] issues?

Sarina Kiani: Genuinely, no.

Payman Langroudi: You haven’t been doing it long enough.

Sarina Kiani: That’s what I’m saying. It’s [01:08:30] hard to give you really dark, juicy things because I’ve haven’t been doing it that long.

Payman Langroudi: Biggest [01:08:35] mistake as a tactical mistake that you’ve made in your career.

Sarina Kiani: That make mistakes. [01:08:40]

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Sarina Kiani: It’s gonna sound so cringe though. You’re not going to want to [01:08:45] hear it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: Go on. I don’t believe in any mistakes because.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t want to hear.

Sarina Kiani: That. Exactly. I knew you wouldn’t want [01:08:50] to.

Payman Langroudi: Hear it.

Sarina Kiani: Because even even working for a certain place, you know, six months. And I thought, oh, I need to get [01:08:55] out. Even that taught me a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but look, the reason I’m asking is because [01:09:00] mistakes teach us. Yeah, but I don’t. So that’s why I’m asking.

Sarina Kiani: I guess I [01:09:05] don’t know. I haven’t really.

Payman Langroudi: It might be.

Sarina Kiani: I think it is. I haven’t had any dark juicy.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:09:10] it’s interesting. Yeah. Because a lot of what you’re saying you’re, you’re following up with. And that’s okay. [01:09:15] And it’s almost like, I don’t know, it’s a new experience for you letting yourself off the hook. Yeah, [01:09:20] a little bit.

Sarina Kiani: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: Which is good though. Yeah. Because like, evolution [01:09:25] is a really important thing when it comes to I mean what we’re talking here now. Mental health.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. [01:09:30]

Payman Langroudi: Where we’re at.

Sarina Kiani: I think so I think getting older is realising [01:09:35] that you’ve got so many more years of this to come. And [01:09:40] do you want to suffer? Do you want to put yourself in this position [01:09:45] again and again and again? I think when you’re younger, it can feel like you’re in this bubble [01:09:50] and the most, you know, horrendous thing that’s happened. You know, whatever’s gone wrong at work, you [01:09:55] can feel like that’s your entire world. But when you’re older and you get humbled by life and [01:10:00] other things that happen outside of work, you realise that you you do it is okay. [01:10:05] Because, you know, I’ve got more important things going on at home. There are people that are suffering with more [01:10:10] important things that, you know, it’s just teeth. You can relax and you tried your best [01:10:15] and I think that’s important.

Payman Langroudi: You told me before off mic [01:10:20] that you kind of manifested things in your life.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, I hate that word [01:10:25] as much as anybody else, but yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What does it mean?

Sarina Kiani: I have a little sheet of paper. I [01:10:30] took a picture of it genuinely, where I wrote the dates of the [01:10:35] years, and next to it I had GSK, I wanted [01:10:40] to go to kings and kings only for dentistry. And all those things happened. They might [01:10:45] have not happened in that year that I’d planned them to, but everything that I [01:10:50] had imagined, I achieved now after I achieved it. [01:10:55] Was I happy and content? Absolutely not. Like anything in life, any goal in life, [01:11:00] you realise when you achieve it that you still want to achieve something else. There’s always something [01:11:05] you want to gain. And I think that’s where it comes back to the mental health things that I [01:11:10] say. I realised quite quickly that if I couldn’t make making my cup of [01:11:15] coffee in the morning the most enjoyable thing, that I would never be happy. And I think [01:11:20] romanticising all the little things in life brings you so much more joy. It’s [01:11:25] the same for people that say, you know, I live for the weekend. What about the rest of the five [01:11:30] days in the week? And I think if you can make all those little mundane [01:11:35] tasks really, genuinely enjoyable, whatever it is, you know?

Payman Langroudi: I mean, they [01:11:40] call it living in the moment, right?

Sarina Kiani: It’s hard, though, living in the moment, I find. Hard because I’m [01:11:45] an overthinker. So what does that even mean? So instead of saying to myself, for me, it [01:11:50] didn’t work, saying living in the moment didn’t work because I’m always like planning things, right? Instead, [01:11:55] I said, focus on the enjoyment of the moment. What [01:12:00] am I doing and why is this so pleasurable?

Payman Langroudi: Enjoyment is an interesting word here because [01:12:05] I don’t know if you’ve ever looked at any Anthony Robbins Tony Robbins stuff.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And he’ll throw [01:12:10] the word enjoy into it. Yeah. And as soon as like he’ll say something [01:12:15] like, how can I get through this thing as quickly as possible and enjoy, enjoy the process. And [01:12:20] as soon as you put enjoy in your brain, fix comes up with different things because your brain [01:12:25] is sort of pain. Pleasure thing.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know.

Sarina Kiani: I heard on a podcast [01:12:30] that anxiety I used to suffer a little bit with anxiety when I first [01:12:35] started working privately on the way to work. I’d have this rumbling in my belly where I felt like, [01:12:40] oh my God, I hope everything goes okay. I hope it’s all well. Yeah, I learned on [01:12:45] the podcast that anxiety is the same chemical reaction in your brain as [01:12:50] excitement.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: And if you tell yourself that it’s actually I’m just excited. I’m excited for [01:12:55] the day. You have to lie to yourself. After a while, your brain will actually take it as an excitement.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:13:00] the same chemical.

Sarina Kiani: It’s the same.

Payman Langroudi: Chemical?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. Kind of. Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: And he’s asking, um, [01:13:05] Olympic athletes or something. How do you feel? Well, someone someone is asking, but he [01:13:10] kind of popularised that idea. It’s interesting. It’s an interesting thing. Um, and both [01:13:15] can be true, right? You can be excited and nervous at the same time. Um, but just. [01:13:20]

Sarina Kiani: Focus on the excitement part. You’re you’re still going to be nervous.

Payman Langroudi: But being this overthinker. Right? [01:13:25] I’m an overthinker myself. Yeah. And sort of the power of now thing it says [01:13:30] now. Right, right, right now is more important than definitely [01:13:35] the past.

Sarina Kiani: Definitely. But but you know, even the future.

Payman Langroudi: The future as well. Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: You’re not there. [01:13:40] You’re not. Why are you then? You’re just rushing through life and you can’t enjoy it? Yeah, definitely. [01:13:45] Because if you think about the year and all the big holidays you have planned. Yeah. Great. [01:13:50] That’s like, what, one 2% of the entire year or even like January Blues. Why [01:13:55] does January have to be blue? You know, why can’t it be colourful?

Payman Langroudi: No, no, I always think of [01:14:00] it, you know, like people who work in the city, they work their butts off sometimes, right? Or most of the time. [01:14:05] Um, and sometimes buy back happiness for four weeks of the year. Yeah. [01:14:10] In the Caribbean?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And what about the other.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. Don’t get me wrong. I would love.

Payman Langroudi: To be.

Sarina Kiani: A Caribbean. [01:14:15]

Payman Langroudi: No, but my.

Sarina Kiani: Happiness would be through the roof. But.

Payman Langroudi: But what about the other 48 weeks? You know, like, [01:14:20] that’s it’s a it’s a bloody good point. Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: People ask me all the time, how was your week? [01:14:25] What did you get up to? And if I actually told you my week I went to the gym, I [01:14:30] went to work, I came home, I cooked, Didn’t see anybody. Didn’t do anything exciting. [01:14:35] Quote unquote. Exciting? Yeah. I had the best week. Why did you have [01:14:40] the best week? Oh, because I wore my favourite new gym gear that I’ve been [01:14:45] ordering online from China that arrived. You know, I’ve been waiting for for three months, or I [01:14:50] bought these new coffee beans that I’ve been waiting to sniff before I grind, because I bought this new [01:14:55] coffee machine that I’ve been trying out this little latte art on, like silly little. [01:15:00] I noticed decaf in the night and then caffeinated in the morning, of course, which is a nightmare. Trying to [01:15:05] change the beans. I’m ten out of ten. Do not recommend. Um, but I [01:15:10] realised that actually I had a great week. I, you know, I called my uncle in [01:15:15] Iran and we had this 20 minute revelation of on FaceTime over. But [01:15:20] if I told you that that sounds like the most boring week ever. But I had the nicest week. Genuinely, [01:15:25] I had a great week.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, let’s look quickly. Social media. Yes, [01:15:30] because you seem very native. You seem very, very comfortable. Yeah. I was looking at your [01:15:35] TikTok. So comfortable talking to the camera. Hot takes on things. [01:15:40] Yeah. Um, all dressed and made up and all that. Tell [01:15:45] me. Talk me through it. I mean, how much of it is, you know, like, pure, sheer, tactical, [01:15:50] you know, hard work and how much of it is you just can’t help yourself making content. [01:15:55]

Sarina Kiani: Do you know the content that works really well is the one where I’m literally eating. And I just [01:16:00] had an idea and I thought, let me just film myself. That goes viral. And the one that I took [01:16:05] literally three hours.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, likes that.

Sarina Kiani: Three hours perfecting this case that [01:16:10] I wanted to talk you through and all the science behind it. No one gives. No one cares [01:16:15] about that. And so I think it goes back to like just being yourself and being.

Payman Langroudi: Does it represent [01:16:20] to you? I mean, does it represent to you a marketing platform? Yes, it’s marketing 100%. [01:16:25]

Sarina Kiani: No, it’s it’s not self-expression. I’ve never Been someone that tries to [01:16:30] express that loudly, outwards to people.

Payman Langroudi: You seem very comfortable.

Sarina Kiani: Like, because I have an ulterior [01:16:35] motive. It’s the brand. I want to get my name out. It’s me hustling. It’s [01:16:40] my way of hustling. It’s my way of getting my face out there so that I don’t miss an opportunity [01:16:45] having my first brand deal. Do you know how excited I was about that?

Payman Langroudi: But did you. Did you were [01:16:50] you doing it before you were a dentist?

Sarina Kiani: No.

Payman Langroudi: So? So then you’ve come to it [01:16:55] quite recently?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Sarina Kiani: And just as a dentist only.

Payman Langroudi: But the execution [01:17:00] is so good. So did you just find that you were good at it.

Sarina Kiani: As a, you know, zombie [01:17:05] scroller? After a while you start to realise, like, trends that work. [01:17:10] You start to speak in the lingo of the social media as well, and you realise you’re [01:17:15] a millennial. Calm down. You’re not a Gen Z or whatever.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: And [01:17:20] so I think that helps too.

Payman Langroudi: So do you find TikTok easier?

Sarina Kiani: It’s a lot easier, 100%. [01:17:25]

Payman Langroudi: Easier to grow, right?

Sarina Kiani: It’s so much easier because you reach the entire world. You can have [01:17:30] one video that has, like, millions of views and, um, it’s I’m still working on it, trying [01:17:35] to build, like, a community, finding what it what is it? What is my brand? What am I trying to actually achieve? [01:17:40] And I think the ones that work really well is when I’m giving information because there’s you [01:17:45] forget how much you actually know that the general public don’t know and.

Payman Langroudi: How.

Sarina Kiani: Useful that information [01:17:50] actually can be. Yeah, some something silly that you think. Well, that’s obvious. As a dentist, [01:17:55] it’s not obvious to someone that isn’t in the dental world.

Payman Langroudi: This is what I mean about being closer to [01:18:00] being a real person than a dentist.

Sarina Kiani: I think that helps.

Payman Langroudi: But then when you [01:18:05] do it, does it? Is it are you getting sort of a bit of a high from [01:18:10] the likes and the views, or is it translating?

Sarina Kiani: I think comments. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because [01:18:15] is it translating to patients genuinely?

Sarina Kiani: I had a patient come in. It’s still slow [01:18:20] and steady for me personally right now. I’m still growing it. But I had a patient, the one that came [01:18:25] in three hours. She travelled to come and see me because I’d spoken about anxiety and [01:18:30] Dental anxiety, and I posted this review. This patient had put about, you know, non-judgmental [01:18:35] dentists where you’ve had some mental health issues that meant that you neglected [01:18:40] your mouth. And, you know, if you go to the dentist, a lot of people say that they see a lot of judgemental [01:18:45] dentists. And she came all the way just to see me because of that one post. [01:18:50]

Payman Langroudi: But, Serena, I mean, I could pull 30 dentists in front of me here, [01:18:55] and we’d all agree it’s good for marketing. Yeah, but that’s 29 [01:19:00] of them aren’t going on and posting.

Sarina Kiani: That’s because they’re taking it too serious. [01:19:05] I think that’s another thing. Like I take my job very seriously as a dentist, and everyone always says when [01:19:10] I’m in the room with you, you’re very serious, but you shouldn’t take yourself so serious. And I think on social [01:19:15] media that can come across if you’re trying to be very, you know, by the book or the GDC watching me, obviously [01:19:20] you work ethically, but you but you don’t need to be so robotic about it. I think [01:19:25] that’s the beauty of social media.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but what do you think stopping other people that they take themselves seriously. And I think that’s [01:19:30] it.

Sarina Kiani: They’re worrying too much about what people think. They’re worrying too much about. Oh, but what I said [01:19:35] might not be completely factual.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not worried about what people think of you.

Sarina Kiani: Never worried about what people think of [01:19:40] me. I’ve always worried about obviously, what my patients think and being, you know, a good team [01:19:45] member in my practice, but never putting something online and worrying too much about what people think. If [01:19:50] someone is always going to not like you and someone else is always going to like you, there’s always [01:19:55] going to be both. So if you sit there worrying so much about what people think, you’ll never be able to just [01:20:00] be yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Have you been trolled?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, of course, there’s always inappropriate [01:20:05] comments or comments.

Payman Langroudi: In your comments.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. Do you know what I do? I block them [01:20:10] or I delete them. And I think this is a you know, I’m not going to go sit on there and reply [01:20:15] to them because Tom, Dick and Harry had five minutes, you know, or are [01:20:20] bored at home and want to take the time to write a nasty comment. If I reply [01:20:25] then that says more about me. Obviously there’s time when you think yeah, your mum, but you don’t [01:20:30] write that back because you think you know what? I hope [01:20:35] that your day goes better than whatever you were going through to write me that message.

Payman Langroudi: See, [01:20:40] Rhona used to complain a lot about trolls, and then I used to think, well, she’s being oversensitive [01:20:45] here because, you know, it comes with the territory.

Sarina Kiani: They can be nasty sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: But then she showed me some and it was like, I hope [01:20:50] your parents die.

Sarina Kiani: Yes, they can be nasty.

Payman Langroudi: Well.

Sarina Kiani: They can be really nasty sometimes [01:20:55] or they can be really personal sometimes as well. And you think, oh my God, like, who are you? Is it someone I [01:21:00] know? What’s going on? But, um.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not enough of a problem to stop you from [01:21:05] doing it.

Sarina Kiani: No. Not yet. I’ll let you know when I’ve got Ronan’s following.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:21:10] I guess it’d be different. But still, I’m still interested in the fact that you’re not worried about what other dentists [01:21:15] think of you. That’s. That’s what stops a lot of people.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, I think that [01:21:20] I can’t change who I am. So if I put on a persona [01:21:25] to please you, ultimately, inevitably down the line, you’ll see that [01:21:30] that’s not me. So if I’m just being myself on social media, you’ll see that in person, too. [01:21:35] And so if you don’t like me when you see me on social media, you’re not going to like me when you see me in [01:21:40] person. So what’s the point of trying to be someone else, you know? And I think that the people that [01:21:45] know me, you know, the people on my team, people at work, they like me. They think [01:21:50] I’m a nice person. Patients think I’m a nice person. And ultimately, I think that’s all that matters. [01:21:55] I don’t need to be worrying what any other dentist think. As long as I’m, you know, [01:22:00] I’m a respectful, nice, genuine person. I don’t sit there. I don’t bitch about anyone. I don’t [01:22:05] say anything nasty about anyone. You know, there’s a lot of gossiping in dentistry that happens. [01:22:10] People love to bash other people’s work. Go and look on social media and compare and [01:22:15] and say nasty things about people’s work. I’m sure it happens to me all the [01:22:20] time or to my work. I’m sure my story gets posted to, you know, sent to someone else in [01:22:25] the DM and nasty comment is made. Do I sit there worrying about that? Absolutely not. Because what can [01:22:30] I do to stop that? That’s just that person and their insecurity. I’m not accountable for their insecurity. [01:22:35] If they want to feel better about themselves by doing that, by all means. I don’t really need to do that. Me and my friends [01:22:40] really aren’t like that. The people around me aren’t like that. So I don’t need to be like that.

Payman Langroudi: And are you only [01:22:45] tackling TikTok and Instagram, or are you looking at LinkedIn and YouTube?

Sarina Kiani: And [01:22:50] it’s definitely not YouTube. Um, I think TikTok [01:22:55] and Instagram for now, because it’s all aimed at patients. I’m not trying [01:23:00] to impress other dentists. If you look at the captions in my [01:23:05] posts, they’re aimed at people. So I’m not trying to show you the most incredible [01:23:10] onley prep that I’ve ever done with my DM and all the all the materials [01:23:15] I’ve used, which I have. I’m actually just trying to show the patient what [01:23:20] they can have done in their mouth. So it is aimed at people.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your process?

Sarina Kiani: What [01:23:25] do you mean.

Payman Langroudi: Your content creation process? Like do you sit in one day and make six, [01:23:30] seven, ten reels?

Sarina Kiani: When I do that, it doesn’t work. So [01:23:35] it’s got to be when it comes to my mind. I’ll just write it down. I’m one of those people.

Payman Langroudi: Your mind. You write it down. [01:23:40]

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. In my In My Notes app, I have a notes app full of stuff.

Payman Langroudi: At some point in the future, you execute [01:23:45] on that.

Sarina Kiani: Or maybe I’ll just do it there and then if it’s really like an urge, because I [01:23:50] find with social media, if you’re trying to make a video and it’s a bit too planned [01:23:55] out, you’re not being yourself as much, so your energy is a bit off. Whereas if you’re very [01:24:00] you know, I’m very excited. I need to make this video right now. It does come across a lot nicer as well. [01:24:05] And those are the ones that do a lot better 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Interestingly, we’ve come to the end of [01:24:10] our time. Oh, that went quick.

Sarina Kiani: That was so enjoyable.

[TRANSITION]: Thank you.

Sarina Kiani: I had the [01:24:15] best time.

Payman Langroudi: Haven’t finished yet. Haven’t finished yet?

Sarina Kiani: Oh.

Payman Langroudi: We’re going to end on the same questions. [01:24:20] Oh, yeah. We always end.

Sarina Kiani: On. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy dinner party.

Sarina Kiani: Oh! [01:24:25]

Payman Langroudi: Three guests.

Sarina Kiani: Three guests.

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive.

Sarina Kiani: Dead or [01:24:30] alive. It would have to be a female entrepreneur. 100% [01:24:35] women that I admire. [01:24:40] There’s a lot. There’s a lot of females.

Payman Langroudi: Being a woman than a man.

Sarina Kiani: In [01:24:45] what way?

Payman Langroudi: In life.

Sarina Kiani: I don’t like saying it is because I think that. [01:24:50] Then you’re saying that you’re limiting yourself because you’re a woman. Men face a lot of challenges, [01:24:55] too. Just different ones. I wouldn’t say that. No, and I wouldn’t say I wouldn’t want to [01:25:00] shout that around to young girls listening to it. She thinks, oh, life’s going to be tougher for me because I’m a girl.

Payman Langroudi: But then [01:25:05] why are we looking at female entrepreneurs? Why not just entrepreneurs?

Sarina Kiani: Because I’m a female. And so I think that I can relate [01:25:10] to their challenges more. You know, if I was a guy, I’d be like, well, I have [01:25:15] male role models. It’s just it’s just whatever you relate to. I think female [01:25:20] for me, because I’m a female. And so the challenges that they’ll go through, for example, planning when to [01:25:25] have children will be a challenge for me too. And so I think, look, if they can do it, I can [01:25:30] do it. Yeah. And I think that is what.

Payman Langroudi: Like which one comes to mind when you think female.

Sarina Kiani: Right now? Just off the top [01:25:35] of my head. Grace Beverly Hill, Beverly grace Beverly, the [01:25:40] founder of Tala and Shreddy.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Sarina Kiani: Um, she is a very educated woman [01:25:45] who went to, I think it was Oxford or Cambridge and set up [01:25:50] her brand. She talks a lot about mental health, a lot about, um, how [01:25:55] young girls can, you know, start up their businesses or what they want to achieve [01:26:00] and their brands and all these things. I think I listened to a lot of her. She has a podcast as well. [01:26:05] I listened to a lot of her, um, podcast and her You know.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know her [01:26:10] name, but the lady who did the ordinary skincare.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do [01:26:15] you know.

Sarina Kiani: Who? No.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know her name?

Sarina Kiani: I’ve got her face. But I’m very bad with names.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Go on. [01:26:20] Who’s your second guess.

Sarina Kiani: Or second guess? Dead or alive? [01:26:25] Hmm. This is tough. I genuinely am very [01:26:30] bad at this. I had a list, and then I forgot it. Very bad with names. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:26:35] go on, like, go category wise. Like female entrepreneur. What would be another category? [01:26:40]

Sarina Kiani: Do you know what the one you said is? Shah. Shah? Completely rogue. Nothing. Dental [01:26:45] Shah, the Shah of Iran would be cool.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. He’s made an appearance several times.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Has [01:26:50] he? Yeah. Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: I feel like my questions are not going to be as as intelligent as other people’s. [01:26:55] They’re going to be a little bit more.

Payman Langroudi: Did you did you know your grandfather, the general?

Sarina Kiani: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, [01:27:00] yeah I was I grew up going to Iran every summer and just hanging out [01:27:05] at his incredible house and.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Sarina Kiani: Really? Eating the pomegranates that he’d grow in his garden. [01:27:10] Yeah, it was incredible. And then when he passed away, I stopped going to Iran.

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t [01:27:15] see.

Sarina Kiani: The.

Payman Langroudi: Point anyway. Similar story for me.

Sarina Kiani: When was the last time you went?

Payman Langroudi: 12 years ago. [01:27:20] With my. After my grandma passed away.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. Did the family kind of breaks away? [01:27:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Third one. Can you think?

Sarina Kiani: Third [01:27:30] one around a dinner table? [01:27:35] I don’t know. You know, it’s tough. It [01:27:40] shouldn’t be this hard saying these.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you [01:27:45] put too much pressure on yourself that you know it’s going to be the right person, but it doesn’t.

Sarina Kiani: It’s like I’m [01:27:50] trying to think of, ah, someone from friends, maybe. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which [01:27:55] one do you like?

Sarina Kiani: Oh, what was his name? He passed away.

Payman Langroudi: Matt? No, the other guy. The other guy. [01:28:00] Chandler.

Sarina Kiani: Chandler.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. His real.

Sarina Kiani: Name? Yeah. I should know his real name. [01:28:05] Yeah. Someone funny like that. Someone light hearted.

Payman Langroudi: Like dinner party [01:28:10] fun.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, but obviously, given how he passed away, I’m. I’m guessing there’s a lot more [01:28:15] to it. And I feel like that would be nice to to talk on a deeper level with someone like [01:28:20] that. That on the outside is so funny. Making me laugh all the time, all the time, and has so [01:28:25] much going on in the inside.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting dinner party. Yeah, him and the Shah.

Sarina Kiani: So nobody [01:28:30] that loud because I think everyone’s a bit of an introvert, I’d say. Yeah. [01:28:35]

Payman Langroudi: Would you call yourself an introvert?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s funny because before [01:28:40] I met you, I thought you were this really massive extrovert.

Sarina Kiani: Everyone thinks that.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone thinks I’m.

Sarina Kiani: This.

Payman Langroudi: Weekend [01:28:45] with you at Mini Smile Makeover. I realised no, no, you’re much more quiet. [01:28:50]

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Person.

Sarina Kiani: That’s how I come across. Everyone always thinks. Oh, she must be, you know, so [01:28:55] loud. I’m in bed by 8 p.m.. I am so boring.

Payman Langroudi: Why [01:29:00] would you call yourself shy?

Sarina Kiani: No, I’m sure I’m not shy.

Payman Langroudi: I’m proper.

Sarina Kiani: Shy.

Payman Langroudi: Are you very shy?

Sarina Kiani: You [01:29:05] don’t seem shy.

Payman Langroudi: I’m very shy.

Sarina Kiani: Really very shy. I would have not thought.

Payman Langroudi: That there are people in this building I haven’t [01:29:10] been introduced to yet. And so I haven’t. I haven’t gone up to them yet. I need to be [01:29:15] introduced to people.

Sarina Kiani: Because, see, in like a Dental event. Yeah. I would [01:29:20] wouldn’t be the first to go up to someone. Hi. You know what’s there? But if they were talking to me, then I’d open up like this [01:29:25] onion. But yeah, I don’t think I’m shy, though.

Payman Langroudi: Most of the time. Karma. [01:29:30]

Sarina Kiani: Karma. Yeah, I mean, I, I’m quite. Yeah. [01:29:35] I’ve got quite a strong faith. Yeah. I’m Muslim.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. You believe?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, [01:29:40] yeah, I believe in, you know, a higher power, 100% karma. [01:29:45] I think karma goes a little bit hand in hand. You know, if you do wrong, that things [01:29:50] will happen to you. But I don’t think it’s that black and white, you know.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:29:55] let’s get to the final question.

Sarina Kiani: Um.

Payman Langroudi: On your deathbed, many years from [01:30:00] now with your you tomorrow. Grandchildren’s grandchildren. Um. [01:30:05] Three pieces of advice.

Sarina Kiani: Ooh.

Payman Langroudi: You’d leave [01:30:10] for them in the world? What would they be?

Sarina Kiani: See, people are going to watch this and go. She’s so young. [01:30:15] Like, what advice has she got to give? No. But then what I would say to them is I. [01:30:20] Don’t worry about what people think.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: Just be yourself. What comes naturally to [01:30:25] you? It took me a long time to be myself, by the way. When I was a lot younger, [01:30:30] I would, you know, imitate other people and.

Payman Langroudi: Try and be someone else.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. Because I thought, oh, [01:30:35] I see someone. They were popular. Maybe I wanted to be a bit like them. I didn’t know who I was.

Payman Langroudi: I had [01:30:40] a super cool friend. I think I spent 5 or 6 years trying to be him. Massive isn’t it? [01:30:45] Massive, massive.

Sarina Kiani: Because you realise I don’t even like what she’s wearing. Like what? Why am I even wearing this blazer? [01:30:50] I don’t even like blazers.

Payman Langroudi: No, but that famous quote about be yourself, everyone else is taken.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, [01:30:55] yeah yeah yeah. That’s true. Someone wrote that to me in a card once.

Payman Langroudi: To be yourself. Is that your first Your [01:31:00] first piece of advice?

Sarina Kiani: Just don’t overthink it. I tell myself [01:31:05] that today. Don’t overthink it and just do it. I’m [01:31:10] on an advert.

Payman Langroudi: One of those like, fuck it, do it.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. Don’t [01:31:15] think too much. Just do it. Just do it. And don’t take no for an answer. When you [01:31:20] want something.

Payman Langroudi: I can see that in your behaviour.

Sarina Kiani: Don’t take no for an answer. It will happen. It might just not happen in that [01:31:25] way that you want.

Payman Langroudi: I can see that in your behaviour. Yeah. I mean, like those sliding doors. Those. [01:31:30] If you hadn’t have. For the sake of the argument. Ask for that admissions tutors [01:31:35] meeting. Yeah. Or if you hadn’t turned up at that corporate mini corporate [01:31:40] with your CV, you might be you might be a totally different person [01:31:45] now. Yeah. Probably not. Probably not. But because you’d get through anyway.

[TRANSITION]: But [01:31:50] yeah. Do it maybe in a different field.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: And I’d probably still meet you, but in [01:31:55] a different way. Maybe business wise.

Payman Langroudi: I’m interested in the manifestation thing. I’m gonna try.

Sarina Kiani: It. Yeah. So [01:32:00] it’s not about. Oh, okay. I want this to happen. It’s about [01:32:05] lying to yourself that this is already happening. How would I feel if I wanted [01:32:10] to be a business owner? For example, how would I feel as a business owner? What would [01:32:15] my day look like and what? How would I feel? And a big part of that is how I dress, [01:32:20] how I carry myself. All these things.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not saying it’s a supernatural thing. You’re saying it.

Sarina Kiani: Actually. [01:32:25]

Payman Langroudi: Works out that way because you’re because.

Sarina Kiani: You start doing it today. You’re already doing it today. [01:32:30] So if I said to myself, and I did this last year, I said I wanted to be I wanted [01:32:35] to manage stress a lot better at work because it can be quite stressful. I started [01:32:40] managing stress at work by telling myself, you know, okay, I can feel the stress coming [01:32:45] on. I can calm down, calm down, peaceful. How would the type of person I want [01:32:50] to be react in this situation and just react that way now and then, slowly, [01:32:55] slowly. You just become that person. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, give it a go.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. [01:33:00]

Payman Langroudi: International DJ. Yeah. Don’t know anything [01:33:05] about music. Yeah. Amazing. Thank you so much for coming.

Sarina Kiani: Thank you so much for having me. It’s been such a pleasure. [01:33:10]

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:33:15] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:33:20] Your hosts, Payman Langroudi [01:33:25] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, [01:33:30] you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually [01:33:35] sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m [01:33:40] assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [01:33:45] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it [01:33:50] too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.