Month: May 2025

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[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental. Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:00:40] in dentistry. Your hosts [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives [00:00:50] me great pleasure to welcome Alan Clark onto the podcast. Alan, you would have [00:00:55] seen on your social media feeds with high production value [00:01:00] stuff on Paste Presents, taking people all over the world. Um, for [00:01:05] me, someone who just wants to change dentistry could see you, my buddy. [00:01:10] Good to have you.

Alan Clarke: Thank you so much. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks for coming all the way from Belfast.

Alan Clarke: Do you know [00:01:15] what? It was an early start this morning, but it is completely fine. The sun is shining, and, um, [00:01:20] as I was saying to you, it’s always sunny above the clouds. So I do not mind being on a plane. Yeah, just [00:01:25] leaving the practice. And the team is like the thing. Sometimes that’s hard, but you just you, you [00:01:30] have to think of business growth.

Payman Langroudi: I guess I can ask you the burning question that I always have at the beginning. My [00:01:35] burning question for you is about you, Belfast. Um, we did a lot of mini spa [00:01:40] makeovers in Belfast and I found overall lovely people, but people who don’t particularly want to stick their [00:01:45] head above the parapet is the way I would characterise.

Alan Clarke: Controversial to do it. Yeah, I think. [00:01:50]

Payman Langroudi: You, you seem to be totally comfortable with being very different [00:01:55] and sticking your head above the parapet. What is it about you that’s very different [00:02:00] to the right. Maybe. Maybe I’m generalising about Belfast.

Alan Clarke: No, I think you’re fair. I [00:02:05] think I think in Northern Ireland in general, you’ve got it bang on. I think there’s like this tall poppy syndrome. So you [00:02:10] don’t want to be the tall poppy. Yeah. Um, and, and [00:02:15] I’m sure we’ll go into talking about lots of different things, but in, in our industry [00:02:20] in general, I think there’s a lot of people that sometimes play it safe and they [00:02:25] don’t want to, you know, they don’t they don’t want to risk doing something controversial. They don’t want to [00:02:30] risk exposure, or they’re just scared of what’s going to happen. And but I think quite early [00:02:35] on I kind of got rid of that. I don’t know, I don’t know where it came from. I think I always wanted to do something. [00:02:40] I always told my parents whenever I, before I even went into dentistry at school, that I wanted to be a dentist, [00:02:45] but I didn’t want to just do that. I wanted to do something different and creative with it, and they probably [00:02:50] were a bit baffled by it. But I’ve kind of stuck to that. And I do have like a little [00:02:55] mantra or like kind of ammo for what I’m doing. And I kind of just [00:03:00] try to stick to it and not look sideways too much. Um, [00:03:05] because I think sometimes you can lose your own sense of purpose and vision if you start doing that. I think there’s a lot of people [00:03:10] in our industry who spend their time looking sideways. What’s what’s the practice up the road? Doing what someone [00:03:15] else doing? What are they charging? You know, how many cases are they getting in? Flip. They’ve got more Invisalign cases than I [00:03:20] have. They’ve got more whitening cases. But very early on I was like, I don’t want to look like [00:03:25] that. Like that’s just a waste. Like, let’s just focus on what we’re doing and if we can do it, well, let’s [00:03:30] go.

Payman Langroudi: We like that. As a kid, though.

Alan Clarke: I’m an only child, [00:03:35] so take that. Take that, if you will, as a good thing or a bad thing. Um, [00:03:40] I think I, I think I’ve had like a good I’ve had a really good family upbringing [00:03:45] and I think I’ve had like a good, like a positive attachment in terms of the feeling [00:03:50] that, like, I don’t have a ceiling And I’ve never had that placed [00:03:55] on me from school, from just the teachers that I had that my family, like, [00:04:00] they’ve always kind of said, like you can achieve things. So I’ve, I’ve kind of tried and I’ve [00:04:05] went for it and I still don’t feel I have a ceiling and I feel like I’m only really getting started [00:04:10] on a lot of things, which terrifies people, including my family sometimes. [00:04:15] But, um. Yeah. What do your parents do? My dad was a farmer. He’s [00:04:20] passed away, and so he had a business. And then he also bred racehorses. Oh. Um. [00:04:25]

Payman Langroudi: It’s different.

Alan Clarke: Yeah. It’s different. And I think in his career, he was very, like, [00:04:30] always, always thought outside the box. And what he did. And he, [00:04:35] he worked a lot in the US and Canada in his business when other people weren’t. And [00:04:40] they probably thought, what’s this guy doing and what is this? And it was very novel at the time and it was very, [00:04:45] um, different. And I remember taking trips whenever I was a kid to Canada [00:04:50] and spending time going around farms and going to stud farms down south and all of this. And [00:04:55] dad, you know, he like you get lots of losses in it, but you get some successes too. And it’s a mixed [00:05:00] bag. And you learn like life’s hard, but also you can have tremendous [00:05:05] success too. And so he did well, but he really followed his passion in it. My mom, she [00:05:10] didn’t work from whenever I was. I was born, but she was like a manager in the health service. So she was very [00:05:15] like organisational management. Um, also [00:05:20] would be like a very she would treat everyone the same in terms of the way she works. [00:05:25] She would like be very conscious to, um, be levelheaded whenever other [00:05:30] people are losing their shit. Like she would be there just to be stable and, [00:05:35] um, yeah. So so they’ve always taught me. They’ve taught me to travel. I [00:05:40] think that’s been the thing. Being an only child, I’ve always had the opportunity to travel. I think from my education, [00:05:45] I was always taught to think outside the box, to think big. Um, [00:05:50] and those are things that I carry with me, for sure.

Payman Langroudi: But you must get [00:05:55] an amount of blue back in Ulster for being the way you are. Or do you [00:06:00] just not care? You’re not paying attention to that. That’s not.

Alan Clarke: Um. Yeah, there is a bit, but [00:06:05] I try not to listen too much to it because I, I always think with, [00:06:10] with pace and with everything that we’re doing, we’re building a global business. And that’s always my kind [00:06:15] of mindset with it. And so I always think that a lot of the decisions [00:06:20] that a lot of the decisions that I make maybe look odd if you don’t view it through that [00:06:25] lens, if you view it through the lens of you’re going to, you know, solely [00:06:30] do one thing and limit yourself to that. You could be [00:06:35] like, well, why are you spending time doing this? Why are you travelling? Why are you devoting energy and effort to that? It might not [00:06:40] succeed, it might fail. Why take the risk? But then also whenever I’m like. But then if I [00:06:45] want to do something that leaves an impact, You have to take risks. And there’s also been [00:06:50] like dark times in terms of whenever you’ve taken the risk and you hope it’s going to pay off. [00:06:55] And then there’s been the real elation whenever it does pay off, and it sort of blows things out of [00:07:00] the water and you’re like, oh my goodness. Where where did that come from? That’s so cool. So I, [00:07:05] I’m not risk averse in it. But also you have to be responsible. [00:07:10] You know, you’re a business owner. You get it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, I [00:07:15] mean, I, I think of moments or books I read that [00:07:20] kind of changed the way I look at things. I remember Stephen Covey [00:07:25] reading that seven Habits book or when I was young, or [00:07:30] Seth Godin kind of stuff that kind of redefined the [00:07:35] way I was looking at stuff. Um, that was one particular book. I [00:07:40] you know what? It was so funny. I gave a book to my friend, um, rich dad, poor dad. Have you [00:07:45] seen.

Alan Clarke: That? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I’ve read it.

Payman Langroudi: I’d read it. I didn’t particularly make me happy, but I gave it to my [00:07:50] friend. And I picked up this other book. Yeah. And I. And I read that book. And [00:07:55] then fast forward 20 years. My friend has, like, 200 houses [00:08:00] here.

Alan Clarke: You’ve done it. You’ve done okay. You’ve done okay. [00:08:05]

Payman Langroudi: I’m not, I’m not, I’m not talking about that. But my friend puts that book down as his. The [00:08:10] reason how he started. Yeah. So can you think of something, something like that, that, that, that. [00:08:15]

Alan Clarke: You know, interestingly I so I did my in Ascot in Berkshire after I so [00:08:20] I went to Queens, I did my TT in Ascot and actually on the first week of my TT, my trainer, he [00:08:25] had he, he talked about that book and he said you need to read this, this is gonna, this is going to [00:08:30] change your life financially. Rich dad, poor rich dad, poor dad Robert Kawasaki yeah, yeah. Um, I [00:08:35] also like Simon Sinek. Start with why? Yeah. I think that’s a cool kind of trying to get [00:08:40] your head into the game. And whenever I was at university. During dental school, one [00:08:45] of my summers, I worked for a politician in America, and that was definitely a [00:08:50] seminal moment for me in terms of thinking outside of Northern Ireland or thinking [00:08:55] outside of the UK, and seeing how business is done and seeing how we know. You [00:09:00] think at university you’re learning your craft and you know lots about it, and then you go into a completely different workspace [00:09:05] and you know, you know nothing. You don’t even know how to answer a phone properly.

Payman Langroudi: How did that come about?

Alan Clarke: Because [00:09:10] I’m from Northern Ireland. Yeah, it’s called the Washington Ireland program, and it was a program that [00:09:15] took university students Catholic, Protestant, no faith, other faiths, lots [00:09:20] of different backgrounds, but primarily Catholic and Protestant to focus on the kind of the legacy of the troubles. [00:09:25] And a lot of programs work at lots of different levels, but this was very much to pull people [00:09:30] who had leadership potential. And, you know, a lot of people from it have went on to be [00:09:35] the Taoiseach. So like the Prime minister in the Republic of Ireland or, um, yeah, [00:09:40] a significant job roles in the US and I, I [00:09:45] applied and it was competitive. One of my cousins had done it before, and I’d known how great a summer she’d [00:09:50] had, and I wanted to do it. And I was the first dentist to do it. And I think probably for them, they were like, oh, well, [00:09:55] he’s turning up. Maybe there’s maybe there’s something in it. Why is he why is he trying? And so I [00:10:00] worked for, um, a politician on healthcare reform and healthcare policy, [00:10:05] um, in the House of Representatives. So that was cool.

Payman Langroudi: What was it, day [00:10:10] to day.

Alan Clarke: Day to day? Writing memos on policy documents. Going to Congressional [00:10:15] and Senate.

Payman Langroudi: Dc.

Alan Clarke: In DC, going to Congressional and Senate hearings, meeting with lobbyists [00:10:20] that wanted to talk about anything from, um, [00:10:25] you know.

Payman Langroudi: Big pharma.

Alan Clarke: Big pharma, Big pharma to coal production. [00:10:30] Well, he was in Pittsburgh. The congressman was from Pittsburgh. So there was an element of like fossil fuel, you [00:10:35] know, jobs, job creation with fossil fuel and, and Um and then [00:10:40] for, for as part of the program, we got to meet the chief justice of the Supreme Court. We [00:10:45] did like a leadership development program where we we met with people that were CEOs of big [00:10:50] multinational corporations. And for me, it was just like this whole world.

Payman Langroudi: Of eye opener.

Alan Clarke: This [00:10:55] whole world of business also how fast things happen, you know, like and people [00:11:00] will criticise American politics for so many things from whatever side of the divide. But [00:11:05] things happened quickly. You know, you went to hearing something was passed, and then suddenly three weeks later, [00:11:10] you were writing up a document that this was coming in in, in a month. And you thought, like coming [00:11:15] from Northern Ireland, where things have been, you know, we’re at a stalemate for so long to see actual [00:11:20] positive change and how business can get done was just really inspiring for me. And then [00:11:25] so I think that probably gave me the sense of like, well, if you want to do something, if you want to get something done, [00:11:30] like just do it. There’s no point waiting or talking about it or having 16 committee meetings. And probably [00:11:35] to the consternation sometimes of my own team at work because I’m like, okay, this is the idea, right? [00:11:40] Here’s the data. Let’s get it done. And then I’m like, what are what are the actionable steps to make that happen? What are the [00:11:45] pain points? How do we get there? And I think the people that I work with certainly in [00:11:50] my team, external to the practice, within the practice of any project that I take on, it’s [00:11:55] very much I try to work with people that get things done and that don’t, you know, [00:12:00] that are good for their word. And they, they, they, they move things like they move the dial [00:12:05] because that’s really important. I think speed is important, but also the ability to like, just [00:12:10] understand that you do have to just take steps to of decisive [00:12:15] action. And I think there’s a lot of people probably in the world that don’t do that. And I think it’s something that limits [00:12:20] productivity.

Payman Langroudi: In your experience with the congressman, [00:12:25] was it Congressman?

Alan Clarke: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Did you get that feeling that, you know, at the end of the day, you’re [00:12:30] meeting these important people and actually they’re just people.

Alan Clarke: Yeah, [00:12:35] I don’t get starstruck would be one thing I would say at all. Um.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:12:40] kind of a revelation, though, isn’t it?

Alan Clarke: Because before a good revelation to have early on. Yeah, like [00:12:45] the first my first day in the job, he took me to the Irish ambassador’s house to a private event. So [00:12:50] literally I probably, you know, annoyed a lot of other interns. [00:12:55] There. I was, the Irish. Oh, I was the Irish intern, and I was [00:13:00] the Irish intern. So he, he claimed some sort of ancestral Irish background multiple [00:13:05] generations before. And he, he was like, oh, you’ll come with me. And so the car collects [00:13:10] us at 6 p.m., after a full day of work, we go to the ambassador’s residence to an Irish networking [00:13:15] event for multi-millionaires who had financial interests [00:13:20] in the US and had, you know, huge companies that could be potential donors. And, you [00:13:25] know, it was a very strategic event. And I was there to show that people from the old sod [00:13:30] were involved. And, um, and it was incredible. And then suddenly there was [00:13:35] a vote. There was he was called back that there was a vote. So the diplomatic car then raced us [00:13:40] across the city and like blue, lighted us across the city for him to get back to the vote. And, you know, I [00:13:45] left then at like 9 p.m.

Alan Clarke: on the steps of Capitol Hill, I go out and I go back to get [00:13:50] my train, and I’m like, what just happened? Like, what was that day? And then suddenly you see him stressed [00:13:55] in his office. You see that he got, you know, six hours sleep, that he hasn’t seen his wife in two weeks, [00:14:00] that things aren’t so happy in terms of, you know, the, the stress [00:14:05] levels of the job and, and all of that. And you get you get to peek behind the veil and, and so I [00:14:10] think it’s just like not being overwhelmed, but also understanding that we’re [00:14:15] all human. We all have innate desires to be loved, to be listened to, [00:14:20] to to want to help people, to have a legacy and a purpose. That’s it. Those are [00:14:25] universal. It doesn’t matter if you’re, you know, at if you’re [00:14:30] at the Dolby Theatre in a few weeks. Or if you’re someone that’s working at a train [00:14:35] station across the road. We’re all people. And and that democratisation is important. [00:14:40] But also, you know, people helping each other to kind of uplift [00:14:45] from where they’re at, if they have that desire, is also something that should be championed.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. [00:14:50] There’s that famous clip with Obama where he’s talking about the even the leaders of G7 [00:14:55] countries, some of them are super smart, amazing people, and some of them are just fools.

Alan Clarke: Who? [00:15:00] Yeah, I don’t know, people. [00:15:05] People rise. People rise to par for different reasons. Sometimes good, sometimes bad.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:15:10] tell me about the bad. Did you did you notice like there was some, you know, power hungry? I [00:15:15] mean, in the US, power and money seem very linked together. Whereas here you sometimes [00:15:20] see that, you know, the MP, you know, putting in for a Kit-Kat for, for a.

Alan Clarke: For expenses. [00:15:25]

Payman Langroudi: Or whatever. And I think there’s a link here to let’s not get it wrong But. But [00:15:30] did you. What was the. What was the negative side? The dark side. Did you notice anything like that? Any House of cards type stories [00:15:35] you can.

Alan Clarke: Um, nothing too extreme for sure, but I think you definitely [00:15:40] get people that are desperate to prove themselves in [00:15:45] the workplace. Really?

Payman Langroudi: Competitiveness.

Alan Clarke: Very competitive. Yeah, I think [00:15:50] I think in the UK we probably can’t fully comprehend the the [00:15:55] nature of American politics. We see it through a lens, but whenever [00:16:00] you experience it, you you get to see the inner workings of a [00:16:05] very established, um, organisational structure that [00:16:10] is just so prestigious in comparison. Um, what [00:16:15] am I trying to say? It’s so developed. It’s a real industry. It’s a real machine. There’s a lot [00:16:20] of money in the US. It’s a very, you know, I often likened it to in [00:16:25] Northern Ireland we have so many politicians. But if you look at the numbers, one [00:16:30] congressman would serve half the population of Northern Ireland. So Northern Ireland would have needed [00:16:35] two congressional seats in order to be completely covered. So the senators are representing [00:16:40] millions of people. The congressmen are representing hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people. [00:16:45] So they do have power. And it is significant. And and people are competitive [00:16:50] even within their offices to try to get to the top. And, you know, I’m sure there’s a lot of [00:16:55] corruption in terms of what motivates people to try to succeed in how they want to try [00:17:00] to get there. But there’s a lot of good people there, too, that are doing it and are very values based.

Payman Langroudi: And but also [00:17:05] I’m thinking more of like the corruption of the system itself, insomuch as, you know, you say you meet with [00:17:10] lobbyists like money completely calls the shots there, [00:17:15] right? Um, in a way it’s good because you kind of know what it is that calls the shots.

Alan Clarke: I [00:17:20] think. Yeah, there is a there is a there is a transparency. I think whenever people [00:17:25] vote in politics, they vote for their constituents, for themselves and [00:17:30] for their constituents, their party and for themselves. And voting for power as well is to keep [00:17:35] your job, to keep the position that you’re in. You know, if you’re in a if you’re a congressman, you have a position of [00:17:40] power. And who is an ex-congressman? Well, you’re very different to your congressman because suddenly [00:17:45] people don’t need you as much. And I think there’s a real transition, even in business and in life, of someone [00:17:50] who’s in business and is super successful and they retire or they sell their business, and then the next day, who [00:17:55] are they? What’s their identity if they find their identity in that work? You know, even in dentistry, [00:18:00] it doesn’t matter what career you’re in, politics, it’s magnified. You know, suddenly you’re you’re you’re [00:18:05] not. People don’t want to take your meetings because there’s not something in it for them. I’m forever [00:18:10] inspired by people’s attitudes and how people help each other, and I’m forever [00:18:15] dismayed by how people will be quick, quick to throw someone under the bus. Um, and [00:18:20] and even in our industry, too.

Payman Langroudi: Um, there’s a lot of that.

Alan Clarke: I think [00:18:25] there’s a lot of there’s a lot of good and there’s a lot of there’s a lot of good and a lot of bad. But it’s a very [00:18:30] powerful industry. It’s a very powerful place. And for me to be able to see that was super interesting for sure. [00:18:35]

Payman Langroudi: And I don’t want it. Every time I’ve got someone from Northern Ireland sitting in front of me start going to the Troubles. [00:18:40] But at the same time you can’t not [00:18:45] discuss it. What I kind of got from the last [00:18:50] 25, 30 years is that like an optimism? Optimism from from [00:18:55] Belfast. I went to Belfast a lot. My, my my dad. My dad studied in Belfast, actually in Queens [00:19:00] in the 50s.

Alan Clarke: To study.

Payman Langroudi: Economics.

Alan Clarke: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, for instance, my dad [00:19:05] was the president of the student union. Yeah. Not because he was any good, but because he was neither [00:19:10] Catholic or Protestant.

Alan Clarke: He was just he was decidedly neutral. So [00:19:15] he was a safe bet.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So what are your reflections on on the troubles, you know, and [00:19:20] and Where Northern Ireland stands now, is it firmly [00:19:25] behind? Firstly, are you Catholic or Protestant?

Alan Clarke: Protestant? Um, [00:19:30] yeah. No, I don’t, I don’t feel it’s. I would like to [00:19:35] think that it’s firmly behind, but I would say there’s a legacy of hurt on both [00:19:40] sides, no matter what political persuasion you’re from. Um, and [00:19:45] I think there’s I think I would say probably, in my opinion, there’s a lot [00:19:50] of people who are Protestant or Catholic now that can very much disassociate religion [00:19:55] and sort of the cultural ties that people had. But whenever there’s this legacy of [00:20:00] hurt, it will take generations, unfortunately, to get over that. But I think there is a sense of optimism in Northern Ireland [00:20:05] for people to move on. And certainly in my generation, it’s not something that would factor into people’s [00:20:10] psyche at all. I would say maybe in a really polarised community again, where the legacy [00:20:15] of hurt has been super strong, that’s often difficult to, you know, Forgive. Forgiveness [00:20:20] takes time.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s. You’re not old enough to remember the troubles.

Alan Clarke: I remember it. You know, I remember [00:20:25] like the Omagh bomb in 1997, 98. Do you remember that?

[TRANSITION]: How old were you?

Alan Clarke: Um. Ten. [00:20:30] Ten. 11. Ten. 11. I remember sitting watching Addams [00:20:35] Family Values on TV. Um, and then it was interrupted by the news reports that that [00:20:40] came that that had happened. And it was tragic. And, you know, I work, I have worked with people [00:20:45] in my, my career and who have had tremendous loss. And I know people that have [00:20:50] had lost family members, lost parents, siblings. And it’s tough. But, [00:20:55] um, they show more courage than I do, you know, because I wasn’t [00:21:00] directly affected by it. So I’m very fortunate in that way. But I think Northern Ireland has [00:21:05] still a bit of a pathway to go economically to grow. It’s like such honestly. It’s such a cool place with such [00:21:10] talent, you know? So the education system is incredible. My education that I got there is like [00:21:15] second to none, second to none. The opportunities I got. Like I got to go to whenever I was at school [00:21:20] in fourth year, I got to go to Russia to we studied Russian history for years on. My school was [00:21:25] so cool that I got the opportunity to go to Moscow and Saint Petersburg, and that’s [00:21:30] places you can’t really get to go so easily now. But then it was so exciting and other places [00:21:35] weren’t doing this. And, you know, all those experiences open your eyes. And I [00:21:40] don’t know if the education system can give as many opportunities now as it used to be able [00:21:45] to. But, you know, there’s such a wealth of talent and there is this brain [00:21:50] drain for years where everyone flees or leaves, like if you get good grades, some, you know, a lot of people went to [00:21:55] England or Scotland to university and never returned.

Alan Clarke: Um, and the congressman actually, to [00:22:00] look back to that, one of his statements to me in my last day of working [00:22:05] was bloom where you’re planted. I asked him, what should I do with my career? And he said, [00:22:10] bloom, where you’re planted, you know, like Northern Ireland needs people who have ability to stay [00:22:15] and to help invest in it and shape it. And I resented that [00:22:20] statement for a long time because I didn’t want to. I was like, I want to go somewhere. I want to do something exciting. [00:22:25] And I’m really happy that I did go back home. And, and, you know, a few years later, go [00:22:30] back home, stay and grow the practice, grow the brand. And I’m actually really proud to be from Northern [00:22:35] Ireland. And it’s been really interesting in dentistry too, because yes, at home you get [00:22:40] a lot of people championing you and celebrate and you get people that say, well, why is he doing that? And they ask questions, but [00:22:45] you’re very neutral whenever it comes to London. And that’s been such a strength. I don’t have [00:22:50] a practice, you know, ten minutes up the road. I don’t have one, um, in [00:22:55] Notting Hill and someone else is on High Street, Kensington, you know. So I’m this neutral [00:23:00] person that the celebrity dentist, the people that are well known here will, you know, chat to you about [00:23:05] their ideas and their business plans. Because I’m safe. I’m neutral. They trust me. They know that we have a really cool brand [00:23:10] and we’ve got our eye on the pulse, but also we’re slightly removed from it, which [00:23:15] has given me tremendous access and tremendous privilege.

Alan Clarke: So that’s plays to my strength. And also, [00:23:20] there’s a piece for me is like levelling up. Like why the the arrogance now [00:23:25] it’ll come out in terms of but why should someone in London not look to Belfast or look to Manchester [00:23:30] and say, hey, let’s learn from that? Why does it have to be London centric that they’re leading the way? It [00:23:35] doesn’t at all. And and then that’s probably where a lot of my [00:23:40] influence from the US comes in, because some of my best friends are dentists in America. And I feel [00:23:45] they’re they’re going to be my first port of call to run an idea past or to say, hey, how would [00:23:50] this work in my practice? What do you think of this? Have you tried this? And again, they have [00:23:55] that neutrality, but they have this kind of like can do attitude of like give it a go, see if it works. If it doesn’t [00:24:00] work well you’ve learned something. It’s not a failure. I think sometimes in the UK like it can be seen [00:24:05] as oh, you tried it. Good for you. It didn’t work. You failed. That’s your your card [00:24:10] marked. But I’m very much even for my team is like, try it. If it doesn’t work, we learn from it. [00:24:15] Let’s pivot in a new direction. Let’s go. Yeah. And I like that attitude. Yeah, because [00:24:20] we all have to learn the.

Payman Langroudi: American even talking to to a random person, whether they’re in your industry [00:24:25] or not. The first thing they kind of go to is why not? Yeah, they really do.

Alan Clarke: Do [00:24:30] you do you feel that’s the same? What what’s the attitude shift do you see between the US [00:24:35] and here and that because I think it’s marked.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the key thing. The why not the, [00:24:40] the sort of um from the business perspective, you’re right. They see failure as a good thing. [00:24:45]

Alan Clarke: Yeah. A learning point in growth.

Payman Langroudi: Investors want failed entrepreneurs because they [00:24:50] know they’ve learnt and all that. Um, I think we’re catching up. But at the same time, [00:24:55] the, you know, there are different cultures there, different cultures.

Alan Clarke: 100%. And then they say it’s interesting because [00:25:00] they say they sometimes say as a, as a sort of a people group, we [00:25:05] Irish people or Northern Irish people will share because of the kind of Immigration [00:25:10] pathways or emigration from US immigration to the US, those pathways over hundreds of years. [00:25:15] There’s a sort of a there’s like a bit of a, like a pioneer psyche that the Americans [00:25:20] have that also people from Ireland have kind of taken with them north or south. And I [00:25:25] just I find that interesting, you know, just there’s that like there’s like [00:25:30] a hopefulness.

Payman Langroudi: But you know what, what I find weird about America is [00:25:35] you can sit on a plane next to someone immediately start talking to them, talk [00:25:40] to them for six hours, and then they just say, okay, see you later. Bye. And [00:25:45] whereas if you have a six hour conversation with a random person in the UK, [00:25:50] you can count that person as one of your closest friends. You know, like you don’t.

Alan Clarke: Yeah. It’s [00:25:55] yeah, there’s, there’s.

Payman Langroudi: And I was talking to my.

Alan Clarke: Cousin. Sometimes Americans don’t go deep quickly. They don’t [00:26:00] know how to go deep. And so then you learn that the Americans you really bond with are the ones that have the ability [00:26:05] for an emotional, like a deep emotional connection.

Payman Langroudi: I was talking to my cousin about it. She lives [00:26:10] out there and she was saying that actually, it takes a long time for an American to [00:26:15] call you a friend.

Alan Clarke: And to open up properly. Like to actually open up?

Payman Langroudi: Well, they’ll open up. They’ll say all sorts [00:26:20] of stuff. But friend.

Alan Clarke: Truly. Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whereas here you can meet someone [00:26:25] once and think I think this guy’s my friend, you know. Because you connected with them. [00:26:30] Yeah. Because we don’t sit and connect with every single person sitting next to us on the bus. Um, [00:26:35] although for business, it definitely helps to be the American way because you’re having conversations. [00:26:40] And sometimes I reflect on that. You know, I grew up here, but I find it much easier having business conversations [00:26:45] in America or, by the way, in Germany. Yeah, in Germany, my suppliers in Germany, [00:26:50] a lot of my suppliers are in Germany, and they’re just very straightforward, man. Like you [00:26:55] say, can you make a composite that does X? They just say, no, we can’t. End of story.

Alan Clarke: And you know where you stand. [00:27:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What’s the price of this. There’s no movement on price in either direction. Yeah. Our German [00:27:05] distributor has never asked for a for a discount, and we cannot ask for a [00:27:10] discount from our German suppliers because the price is the price. Let’s talk about everything [00:27:15] around the price. You know, it’s really refreshing because.

Alan Clarke: Because you know where you stand. Whereas in the UK instead [00:27:20] of price on price.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Alan Clarke: Instead of saying pass me the pen. Yeah. We’re like, oh, I’m sorry. If you [00:27:25] have a moment, would you mind terribly if you could pass me the pen?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Alan Clarke: Yeah, yeah. You know, whereas they’re like [00:27:30] straightforward straightforward.

Payman Langroudi: And then then you we talked about Middle East a little bit. Middle East [00:27:35] it’s the opposite only price. Nothing else is important right. And for instance [00:27:40] difficult when you’ve got a quality product. Right. When people just talk about price and then you want to.

Alan Clarke: Show [00:27:45] you want to say price but value.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Alan Clarke: Where’s the value. And then they do want to hear. Yeah okay.

Payman Langroudi: Um [00:27:50] so yeah these different cultures in, in in business.

Alan Clarke: Then I think we need to like I think that’s [00:27:55] such a learning point for us to look globally at things like because it’s a global market. Even in dentistry, [00:28:00] it’s a completely global market. Yeah. And it should be because it’s the same thing. At [00:28:05] the end of the day, we’re all treating someone’s tooth. Yeah. Person treatment solution. [00:28:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Tell me about your university experience. Which which student [00:28:15] were you? Were you the party guy? The.

Alan Clarke: No, I wasn’t the party guy.

Payman Langroudi: Down study [00:28:20] guy.

Alan Clarke: I know I had, like, a good university experience, but I wasn’t, like, super involved. I [00:28:25] would say I probably wasn’t outsider. Maybe a bit of an outsider. Yeah, I would say that.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got [00:28:30] outsider mentality outside?

Alan Clarke: I’m an INFj. Oh well, I’m in. I think I’m an enfj [00:28:35] now, but Myers-Briggs, INFj enfj for sure. And I definitely would identify [00:28:40] with that. So like I would be the observer who will be able to take a zoomed out look at things [00:28:45] and then be a strategist for sure. Which I think works to my advantage now, but I actually always [00:28:50] saw it as a disadvantage. And I was always like, why can I not just enjoy the moment? Yeah, I was [00:28:55] always like that. And even now I would, you know, [00:29:00] I’ll see people just kind of consumed in the moment. And I’ll be worrying about something or I’ll be thinking, overthinking [00:29:05] it. Or I think it makes me very like, empathetic, but also emotionally, [00:29:10] like, um, what’s the word like sometimes [00:29:15] emotionally fragile? Because then I’ll overthink something. And that’s [00:29:20] I view it as negative. I think it does make me someone that’s caring, but I [00:29:25] don’t know if I’ve reconciled that fully yet, because sometimes it seems more hassle than it’s worth. But yeah. No, [00:29:30] but I had good a good friendship circle, good friends. Um, university was good. [00:29:35] It’s there’s this element. There’s this element. Whenever you go to Queen’s [00:29:40] in Belfast, I think certainly at my stage. And we just did an event there this week which [00:29:45] was was amazing.

Alan Clarke: Lots of students. And I think it’s definitely a lot more, you [00:29:50] know, a lot more diverse now, a lot more students firstly in dentistry in the course, but [00:29:55] lots more interaction with all the other universities in England as to what’s going on. But Queen’s Queens in [00:30:00] my day felt very, very separate. You felt like a bit of a second class citizen that you’re out [00:30:05] there. Everything’s going on in the UK and no one cares about you and no one knows who you are. And it’s and I think [00:30:10] there’s probably a little bit of the driver piece for me was to be like, [00:30:15] hey, I’m from Belfast and that doesn’t matter. And I can like punch in this UK [00:30:20] world, which I think I’ve done and can do do well. But also there’s like [00:30:25] a well, I want to inspire others that go to Queens to look outside the box and to not see [00:30:30] Belfast as this little sort of narrow bubble that you kind of stay in and no [00:30:35] one knows anything about you. Like your education is great. It’s a great university. Um, but [00:30:40] it yeah, it sits separate. I hope I hope that changes. I think that’s part of my [00:30:45] goal slightly is to.

Payman Langroudi: What about your first [00:30:50] job.

Alan Clarke: As a dentist? Yeah, I worked in Ascot in Berkshire [00:30:55] with friends. I’m sure, you know, loving Janice Gunneswaran who owns Chairside.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:31:00] well, it was he.

Alan Clarke: He was in my that’s loving practice now. And I was he was an [00:31:05] associate. He was an associate with me.

Payman Langroudi: What a great guy.

Alan Clarke: Yeah. And, um. And [00:31:10] Phil Wiltshire and Devesh Patel, you maybe know.

Payman Langroudi: Were your bosses.

Alan Clarke: Mhm. Do you know them? Maybe. [00:31:15] Um. It was great practice. High sort of private dentistry. Really affluent area. [00:31:20] One of the real benefits was my I had a so there were two in the practice and she came [00:31:25] from King’s um, and uh, a great clinician, [00:31:30] uh, and she, I went in and she was like, you know, [00:31:35] person’s getting a tooth taken out. Okay, here’s a bridge, a denture, an implant. And she just like, boom, boom, boom. And I was just [00:31:40] like. And I hadn’t got any confidence whatsoever. And I was just like, oh, [00:31:45] goodness, I need to level up this like, because she’s smashing it and I don’t can’t communicate the way that [00:31:50] she can. Um, but yeah, you make mistakes. It was terrifying.

Payman Langroudi: Which aspects [00:31:55] of your Queen’s education did you find were stronger than the London lot because you were probably surrounded by a [00:32:00] bunch of London?

Alan Clarke: Yeah, it was majorly surrounded.

Payman Langroudi: I was in I came from Cardiff and [00:32:05] I was the only one from Cardiff and for instance, Oral med. Yeah. [00:32:10] They taught us better than all the, all the London ones we were. But also they taught us much [00:32:15] worse than all the.

Alan Clarke: We were good in terms of like, uh, we were good in terms of like [00:32:20] a lot of clinical, a lot of clinical skills, um, that a lot of [00:32:25] clinical skills. We’d, we’d, we’d had high quotas of numbers for fillings, crowns, extractions [00:32:30] more.

Payman Langroudi: Than.

Alan Clarke: The way, way more, way more like 5 or 6 times the number. And it was just because [00:32:35] we had the population, the patients there was the treatment that was there to do. So our numbers were vast [00:32:40] and and the communication, they, they smashed it out of the park. [00:32:45] We didn’t. Yeah. They were slick. I just think it’s the nature of being in a London [00:32:50] university. There’s competition. There’s people with bigger numbers, there’s fewer patients to go around, [00:32:55] so maybe less things. But then on communication and like pushing it and understanding their place in the whole [00:33:00] ecosystem. Yeah, I was lost. They knew it. They were slick. Um, and [00:33:05] I think that swings and roundabouts as well, like graduates. I remember on my scheme, graduates from Peninsula [00:33:10] were really great.

Payman Langroudi: Good dentists.

Alan Clarke: Really good dentists.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’ve heard that.

Alan Clarke: Yeah. Have you heard that as [00:33:15] well? Like just clinically like they were on it. Like they knew their stuff. It’s postgrad isn’t it a postgrad [00:33:20] entry. I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Know I know they had the more composite than they.

Alan Clarke: Were. [00:33:25]

Payman Langroudi: Like most schools that sort of thing.

Alan Clarke: But it’s like it’s scary. You know, you go into practice. [00:33:30] I remember the practice. My nurse didn’t show up the first day. The practice manager, who [00:33:35] had spent the previous two days doing paper work, and we were sort of in awe of her like skills and all this [00:33:40] knowledge that she had that we knew nothing about. And then the first day she was in nursing with me and I was like, and [00:33:45] you feel like you’re going to make a mistake, and she’s judging you. And but it was fine. And she was actually great, a great [00:33:50] support. But it’s scary. It is scary. I think for young graduates now, it’s a terrifying [00:33:55] because I remember that and I remember even the the sort of the stress [00:34:00] level. I came back to Northern Ireland, I started a master’s and but I.

Payman Langroudi: Went [00:34:05] straight out of it.

Alan Clarke: After I came back to Northern Ireland.

Payman Langroudi: For a master’s.

Alan Clarke: I did a maths. So I worked in [00:34:10] practice and then I had a yeah, went part time. So I started a [00:34:15] master’s in medical law and ethics at Edinburgh. So at.

Payman Langroudi: That point, well.

Alan Clarke: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:34:20] just wanted early isn’t it, to do master’s.

Alan Clarke: No it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Not.

Alan Clarke: Yeah. No it wasn’t. Do you know [00:34:25] what I wanted to do it. And that would be something I would tell students now I was always given this [00:34:30] thing of don’t do things early.

Payman Langroudi: No, I think you should do things early. But law and ethics [00:34:35] is an interesting one to do.

Alan Clarke: I don’t I think it was the political thing from the US and I really wanted, I wanted [00:34:40] to I just had this element of wanting to understand business [00:34:45] policy law. And I felt like, well, if I’m still in the kind of guise [00:34:50] of academic study. Let’s do it while it’s fresh, because I’m [00:34:55] not going to want to study in a few years time.

Payman Langroudi: I definitely believe in that. That’s the American way of [00:35:00] looking at it.

Alan Clarke: It’s the American.

Payman Langroudi: Way. Decide what you want to do early and go after it as quick as possible. [00:35:05] And it definitely is opposite to the advice most UK people give. Yeah, they say go join the NHS, [00:35:10] learn, make some mistakes. Then whenever you’re in private practice then.

Alan Clarke: And while that’s [00:35:15] completely valid, then there’s also this concept of we spend our time retraining associates [00:35:20] to get out of the bad habits that they’ve got into. They don’t have any concept of money or finance or how business [00:35:25] works. They don’t have any concept of how to communicate to a patient who’s providing, you know, who’s buying [00:35:30] a service, and you have to create an experiential product. They don’t know how to brand or market themselves, and [00:35:35] they kind of just expect it to happen and to be given to them. And then you start having to reshape and be [00:35:40] like, well, listen, this is how a business functions. This is why someone’s deciding to come to you over ten other [00:35:45] people. Um, but yeah, so so I did that. So? So. Yes. Where was I? So yeah, [00:35:50] really great experience. Terrifying. Oh, and I was going to say higher [00:35:55] stress. Whenever I went back to Northern Ireland, I realised everything was operating at a lower stress level than it was [00:36:00] outside London. So I was fascinated by that because I didn’t realise the stress pressure [00:36:05] was like here. And and it was, it was sort of hidden, it was secret. [00:36:10] But actually everyone was working at this sort of London stress level of their sort of like just here [00:36:15] all the time. Someone’s going to sue us, the GDC is coming, the patient’s going to be unhappy, [00:36:20] you’re defensively practising. And that was sort of drummed into us a little bit at that stage, which [00:36:25] I don’t think is necessarily a good thing. It it makes people free. [00:36:30] It makes people freak out unnecessarily. I think it makes you a worse clinician because you [00:36:35] don’t practice with your own sort of intuition. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Look, in life generally, [00:36:40] you can look at worst case scenarios, what you don’t want to happen or what you do [00:36:45] want to happen. And, uh.

Alan Clarke: No one looks at the best case scenario. Yeah, like, why [00:36:50] change your narrative? Look at the best case scenario. Yes, things may not go right, but then [00:36:55] you can pivot or redirect or learn from it. But why should we live in this grey cloud of misery? [00:37:00] Like, I just think it’s. I think it’s wrong.

Payman Langroudi: There was a moment in 2014, [00:37:05] 2015 where it was like peak GDC night. They loved it.

Alan Clarke: They love [00:37:10] it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. And, you know.

Alan Clarke: Talking about it.

Payman Langroudi: Dental protection used to go around all the Dental [00:37:15] schools, and their opening gambit was one third of you will be sued in your career [00:37:20] in the first five. It’s something like that. You know, like a frightening thing. And that really. And I [00:37:25] actually spoke to the people from Dental Protection and said at one point they realised they’re putting fear into the market. [00:37:30] Yeah. And then now, yes, we do have this issue, but it’s much less of an issue. [00:37:35] And people would do well not to always make all decisions from a position of fear. You [00:37:40] know, you don’t.

Alan Clarke: You lose your edge. I think there’s two things in dentistry that are important is not to practice [00:37:45] from a position of fear and sort of controversially, not to really try to help someone. [00:37:50] Now, whenever I say that, I mean, you’re always going to help someone clinically because that’s your [00:37:55] role. But if you move a shift and the dial moves very slightly and you think, I’m [00:38:00] just going to do this to help them because they’re a nice person and I’ve just immediately feel [00:38:05] like I’ll do this just to help them. You’ve lost your clinical objectivity. I [00:38:10] think that’s a really interesting point to note, and it’s something that I would expand. [00:38:15]

Payman Langroudi: On.

Alan Clarke: It. You can lose your clinical objectivity if you lean into the. [00:38:20]

Payman Langroudi: Only helping someone.

Alan Clarke: Because you’re helping them for you, not them.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [00:38:25] okay.

Alan Clarke: Do you know what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: No.

Alan Clarke: So, like, there’s a really point. There’s [00:38:30] a really important point of, like, we go into this job and you want to help all your patients, and we do, but [00:38:35] sometimes you’ll have a scenario where a patient’s coming to you and [00:38:40] said, oh, I’m just in so much pain. Can you just stay on it? Can you just do this for me? Honestly, [00:38:45] you’d help me out so much. I just need you to help me do this. And you’re nearly [00:38:50] being pressurised in a situation, and then suddenly you feel like, oh, well, I should help [00:38:55] this person. I’ll do it. And there’s just a little shift that can happen where you lose your clinical objectivity [00:39:00] because you’re doing it for the patient or you’re doing it for. I’m the good person here. I’m [00:39:05] going to help them. The minute you do that, you’re into dangerous territory. And that’s what I would say. Don’t practice defensively [00:39:10] and be very conscious of that scenario happening as well. Because neither [00:39:15] of those are right. Because you’re doing that for whenever you’re trying to help someone in that way, you’re doing it for you [00:39:20] and your ego, and you’ve lost your objectivity as to what your intuition says the right decision is. [00:39:25] And you know, you’re going against like, oh, I’ll, I’ll try to I can’t take this tooth out. I really feel I should refer [00:39:30] it. And you think, oh, I’ll give it a go. They’re really begging me to do it. No bad decision always goes wrong. [00:39:35] And so I’ve learned that. But also on the other side, don’t practice in fear because that’s. [00:39:40]

Payman Langroudi: Two extremes.

Alan Clarke: The two extremes, and you want to practice in that gambit in the middle. And if you’ve got that [00:39:45] like knowledge gap and you don’t feel like it’s in your wheelhouse and you want to keep [00:39:50] the business in, work out who your referral pathway is and have a really great relationship with them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:39:55]

Alan Clarke: And then you can know that you can practice to the fullest because, you know, if it’s outside the canon of your work, [00:40:00] then you’ve got your specialists that you know that you can deliver a really great patient experience, a really great [00:40:05] patient journey, and you don’t lose that objectivity. But I just think for young dentists, those are two [00:40:10] things that I’ve learned over time that I wish someone had sort of taught me really early on. [00:40:15] And whenever I was, you know, I was a in, what, 2012, 2013. So [00:40:20] it was that peak fear time of the GDC and people were scared. [00:40:25] And I think it was honestly like maybe a UK London centric thing, slightly more than in Northern Ireland. [00:40:30] Um, because I noticed a difference. But also, you [00:40:35] know, you can’t live in that fear, because what sort of a career [00:40:40] is that? It’s it’s a it’s not a happy career. No. I see very unhappy [00:40:45] associates that I’ve, that I’ve, I have worked with unhappy associates. I see people that live [00:40:50] in this level of stress. And I think, what’s the point if you, if, if someone’s so unhappy in their job, [00:40:55] pivot and change career and find a job that you like that you can, that you don’t have the Sunday night scaries [00:41:00] with because it’s life’s too short. You know, I think there’s that pivot piece like [00:41:05] I think maybe it takes.

Payman Langroudi: Most of us won’t do that.

Alan Clarke: No, I know, and I was going to say it maybe sounds very cavalier [00:41:10] to say that. Maybe that’s my personality a little bit. But, you know, one [00:41:15] of my best friends is planning to move to Sri Lanka. He has a really successful business [00:41:20] and but he knows he wants a change in his life, and I support him [00:41:25] fully in that because I think it’s so brave and it’s so cool. And I know he’ll make it like an absolute [00:41:30] success of it. But I know there’s 100 other people will say, you’re you’re crazy. Why would you do that? [00:41:35] And. Um, but I think those are the those are the little sparks [00:41:40] of entrepreneurial spirit that like that are the real leaders that [00:41:45] we need to learn from. And if I see that in someone, if I see that in a friend, if I see that in someone in [00:41:50] my network, that’s someone I want to spend more time with because they’re they’re brave to make decisions and to be bold. [00:41:55] And I’m like, I can learn from that person. You know, I think it’s the and [00:42:00] also like and I talk whenever I’m talking to students and things. A lot of it’s all [00:42:05] of these things that I’m saying seem so like I’m being cavalier and being kind of easy [00:42:10] with it. If you’ve got debt, if you’ve got a family to look after, if you’ve got all these things, it’s so [00:42:15] hard to pivot because you can’t just make bold moves. But I think sometimes even [00:42:20] just having that moment of pause to zoom out and be like, hey, where am I at? [00:42:25] Is this okay? Am I am I really content? Then it’s it’s healthy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah [00:42:30] yeah. Did you use the law and ethics?

Alan Clarke: Have I used it? Yeah, I [00:42:35] so I did a bit of work with my friend lovin with Chairside. Um, which actually the law [00:42:40] and ethics came in really, really well for that. Um, because I helped design, I worked with them to help design some [00:42:45] marketing campaigns and work on their products and testing and doing things, which was really [00:42:50] beneficial. And then also, I’ve had a column for the last year in dentistry magazine, [00:42:55] dentistry.co.uk. So a lot of the articles that I’ve written have been about AI technology [00:43:00] and the ethics around AI and dentistry and yeah, very much use that. How do we [00:43:05] how do we use something that’s safe? How do we work with technology that’s still developing that, [00:43:10] you know, could have legal ramifications if an insurance company was to use it or not? And where [00:43:15] do we stand on that in our profession. So yeah, it’s been interesting. Have I used it like directly. [00:43:20] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Not really witnessed anything.

Alan Clarke: I’ve done a little bit of it. Yeah a little bit of it. Um, [00:43:25] yeah I have uh and it’s okay. I, I’ve [00:43:30] enjoyed it more in the sort of like zoomed [00:43:35] out perspective on strategy, but I have done the expert witness. Yeah. [00:43:40]

Payman Langroudi: So take me to the journey of this point to the point of opening a practice. How [00:43:45] many years after was it? What was the thought process? Was it.

Alan Clarke: A.

Payman Langroudi: Complete [00:43:50] squat?

Alan Clarke: No. It was. I bought a practice that was existing that was a one [00:43:55] man band in Belfast, and that was during Covid. I’d been an associate for, [00:44:00] um, 5 or 6 years, but five years in a practice. And [00:44:05] I was very happy there and in Belfast, in Belfast. And I really loved that practice. And the team [00:44:10] and some of the team now work with me that were there. The previous owner has retired now and so [00:44:15] and we’re it’s really good terms. It’s great and I always [00:44:20] knew I wanted to have a practice. I felt like I had this sort of thing to [00:44:25] this itch to scratch. Um, and, and [00:44:30] I guess it was a bit of a stab in the dark. You know, you don’t know until you try it. And [00:44:35] I looked at a few practices, this practice. We went into negotiations and completed [00:44:40] on it sort of during Covid. It had a really great location. Um, it’s [00:44:45] really funny because I remember with the kind of the real estate agent or [00:44:50] the practice sales agent talking to me, and I said, he said, where would you want to [00:44:55] go in the city or not? And I said, there’s only one place I don’t want to go.

Alan Clarke: And I told him what street it was, and [00:45:00] and he was like, no, just be open minded. And I remembered immediately standing [00:45:05] with friends on that street as a student, maybe 6 or 7 years previous, no, probably [00:45:10] longer like ten years previous. And then pointing at the practice and saying, there’s a dental practice, [00:45:15] you could work there. And I was like, I’ll never work there. And whenever he said where it was, I had this feeling of, oh goodness, [00:45:20] this is where I’m going to work. Like, this is this is for me now. And I’d just been through one that had kind of hadn’t [00:45:25] went my way. And I and I was like, okay. And I just had this feeling that it was going to be right. And and [00:45:30] it was. And we opened during Covid and we rebranded and, uh, have, [00:45:35] uh, two other associates working, um, two hygienists. We’ve got, uh, a staff team. [00:45:40] We created a lifestyle brand with it. And yeah, I’ve been pretty playful with it. [00:45:45]

Payman Langroudi: It’s called paste.

Alan Clarke: Paste like toothpaste.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So you knew from the get go that [00:45:50] that was going to be the branding.

Alan Clarke: Yeah. Yeah, I had that, I had that, I had that set. Yeah. [00:45:55] I knew the brand identity because I knew I wanted to bring a product to market that was like a lifestyle brand. So like [00:46:00] Aesop or Byredo or Le Labo, like it needed to be experiential. It needed to touch [00:46:05] that millennial touchpoint. Due to our location, due to the population I felt I could speak to, because your [00:46:10] ideal consumer is is ultimately someone that you know really well. So I was like, well, it’s me. [00:46:15] It’s someone who my age if we want to, you know, it was a practice with a really [00:46:20] great reputation. He had done great dentistry. Um, and, [00:46:25] and I’m friends with him and, you know. But I knew that as patients [00:46:30] get older, you need to reinvigorate a practice and you need to grow a new audience. And [00:46:35] so for me, it was if we can keep the patients happy and grow and, you know, maintain [00:46:40] the list that we have and build relationships there, that’s that’s amazing. But we also need to reinvigorate [00:46:45] the practice because it’s in the city centre. So this was our way of doing it. And I, I [00:46:50] had this vision that I wanted to bring a brand to market first and foremost as well. Um, [00:46:55] because.

Payman Langroudi: Did you go and like immediately rebrand, knock down walls. [00:47:00]

Alan Clarke: And two months in 2 or 3 months in? Yeah, we I bought it in. It [00:47:05] closed in April. And in July we did the refurb and we rebranded in October. [00:47:10]

Payman Langroudi: So did you get resistance from the team or from patients? I mean, you know, again, the [00:47:15] general advice tends to be general advice. Don’t do that. Right. General evolution rather than [00:47:20] revolution.

Alan Clarke: Terrible, terrible advice. Terrible advice Because the [00:47:25] patients. So it’s really interesting. The practice owner had said to me, don’t change anything. It’s working [00:47:30] really well. Just keep it as it is. Yeah. So if I’d played that out, you are then compared to [00:47:35] him in his shadow. Oh he was, he’s good, but he’s not as good as he was. Same for [00:47:40] the staff and same for the patients. But whenever you take a different approach to it and you say, well, I’m [00:47:45] going to put my product out to market, then the patients start, start [00:47:50] to think, oh, this person’s bold. I’m now not going to compare him to him. [00:47:55] This is interesting. And you know, the patients that I got the most praise from patients [00:48:00] in their 80s and 90s saying to me, I applaud you for being bold [00:48:05] and entrepreneurial. And I love that because I felt like I had it was a risk. Like I [00:48:10] went against the advice, but I now tell people to do exactly the way I [00:48:15] did it, like to be bold, whatever that is for them. Because actually you get so much more respect and immediately [00:48:20] you don’t have that comparison. Arson.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, I think Dev Patel, [00:48:25] you know, Dental beauty. That’s their approach. And their approach is almost to destroy previous [00:48:30] memories. No, I wouldn’t destroy. Yeah, that is their approach.

Alan Clarke: No. We’d like. His [00:48:35] legacy is. So I wanted to build on his legacy because he did great dentistry and he has a great [00:48:40] patient base. So that was that was honestly never part [00:48:45] of it. That was never part of it. It was very much how do [00:48:50] we build on it and create something that makes [00:48:55] an impact in the market?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But let me give you an example. I go to a fruit shop [00:49:00] opposite my kid’s school. It’s very organic and all that. I’ve been going there every day getting my fruit [00:49:05] and veg. Yeah. Then it got sold. Yeah. And I suddenly [00:49:10] noticed everyone’s different. They’re different people now. Yeah. My number one issue [00:49:15] was will my blueberries still come from the same place? Yeah. Yeah. So I was really interested [00:49:20] in that. And then so I looked and he changed the position of [00:49:25] the blueberries in the shop. Yeah. So they were no longer where I usually grab [00:49:30] them from.

Alan Clarke: How did that make you feel?

Payman Langroudi: Terrible. Yeah. Because not not only did I not know whether [00:49:35] you know, but the fact that they’d moved made me think he’s getting them from somewhere else now. Yeah. Yeah. [00:49:40] Now, now I’m still a customer. I’m still a customer. He’s doing stuff better now here. But [00:49:45] what I’m saying is better than the previous guy. Yeah. Now, what I’m saying is that fear [00:49:50] of is the thing I love about this place going to change. I think it’s [00:49:55] the thing you’ve got to manage really well.

Alan Clarke: Very. You have to be very.

Payman Langroudi: So what did you do to make sure that, you know, the [00:50:00] blueberries were still.

Alan Clarke: I think it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Did you keep the team?

Alan Clarke: Obviously keep. Yeah [00:50:05] of course kept the team. And we still have some of the team now who are there. We’ve lost some of the team and [00:50:10] we’ve changed some of the team.

Payman Langroudi: Did you sell it to the team? You know your your vision to the team. Did you sell it to [00:50:15] them?

Alan Clarke: We actually sat down and collaborated on it together as a group, So I took a blank piece [00:50:20] of paper. We did a day, and we took a blank piece of paper and said, what works really, really well here? So what are the things [00:50:25] that we want to grow? What are the things that aren’t working so well that we want to change? And then I present [00:50:30] it to them and I said, well, this is my vision for going into business. I want to have a practice that’s really well respected, [00:50:35] but also that has scope to grow so that we can reinvest in the practice and [00:50:40] invest in the team and just provide really great care in our city. So what does that look like [00:50:45] and how do we do that? Because at that stage, there were a lot of new owners into the industry. Practices [00:50:50] were starting to be redeveloped, and I think I bought the practice at quite a sweet spot during [00:50:55] Covid because actually we had that. People would say, you know, it’s scary. And [00:51:00] it was, but then you had this kind of lead in time to be able to develop it. And, [00:51:05] and.

Payman Langroudi: And the Covid bump. Right. Yeah.

Alan Clarke: Afterwards.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah for sure.

Alan Clarke: Yeah. [00:51:10] And and I think, I think, I think it was for [00:51:15] me, it was to take the patients that we had on a journey to. So how can we involve them [00:51:20] in what we’re doing? So a lot of my conversations would be like, what do you think of this? We’re thinking about doing this. [00:51:25] You’ve been here a long time, I haven’t. Do you think this would work? And you, you buy in [00:51:30] with the team and with the patients that collectively, you’re working together because they [00:51:35] have a sense of ownership. A patient has a sense of ownership of the practice. They’ve been there 30 or 40 [00:51:40] years, which we have many. Then. Then if you do something, it disrupts [00:51:45] their harmony. It disrupts the balance. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: So you were sensitive [00:51:50] to that?

Alan Clarke: Very sensitive to it for sure. It was not a like it wasn’t like a scorched earth policy by any means. [00:51:55] It was like, let’s let’s think about how we do this, but let’s try to get the vision across that you understand [00:52:00] why we’re doing it.

Payman Langroudi: Because did you find it came naturally to you to sit down with, with [00:52:05] the staff and, and explain all this to them? Because a lot of associates have never done anything like [00:52:10] that before.

Alan Clarke: That’s the piece that I’m, I would say I’m okay with. Yeah, I would [00:52:15] say maybe I do have a skill set.

Payman Langroudi: Motivation.

Alan Clarke: Yeah. Trying. I probably get it [00:52:20] wrong. You could ask my associates. They probably they’ll probably complain and say no, he’s terrible at it. But I [00:52:25] think, I think I think at most they will say but he tries and I [00:52:30] would like to think they think that. And and at the end of the day, it was to grow [00:52:35] the practice, to have something that they can be proud of, that can make an impact in the industry that [00:52:40] can be successful. And and, you know, we will grow [00:52:45] financially but also grow in reputation. So all the motivation, all the motivators are good for [00:52:50] it. It’s just you have to take a bit of a risk and a punt to see if it’ll work. And [00:52:55] definitely some decisions work better than others. Um, but I’m glad we did it [00:53:00] and I think we’re on a good track.

Payman Langroudi: Do you mean by I wanted it to be a lifestyle brand? [00:53:05]

Alan Clarke: Well, a lifestyle brand.

Payman Langroudi: Is.

Alan Clarke: Very different than a mom and pop business is how it would [00:53:10] be termed. So, you know, a fruit shop, for instance. Could be a service industry. You go, [00:53:15] you buy fruit, you leave. You’re not going to necessarily go [00:53:20] tell your friends about your fruit shop, unless they do something really revolutionary [00:53:25] that makes you think, oh goodness, I want to talk about it. But whenever you have a lifestyle brand, certainly [00:53:30] if you look at marketing to millennials and Gen Z, a lifestyle brand is very much you want [00:53:35] to communicate your cause and your values to, and you want your patients to buy into [00:53:40] your values. So we set up PS cares, and we work with refugee asylum seekers [00:53:45] that are in Belfast through a charitable organisation. And that’s something that we talk about. And it’s not something that I promote a lot, but [00:53:50] it’s something that we will we will talk about in terms of if we’re saying that [00:53:55] we’re a caring profession on a website or on a piece of text, we’ll prove it. You [00:54:00] know, and I think there’s that element of people will want to come to us if they feel that their values [00:54:05] are aligned. And a lifestyle brand is very much about communicating those values so that they become [00:54:10] part of our story as well, and it’s about that collective experience. If patients are coming to us, [00:54:15] they’re our friends, they know us. It becomes more than just transactional, and there’s [00:54:20] an element of transaction in every walk of life. You know, you buy your wife flowers 70% [00:54:25] because you like your wife, 30% because you know you’re going to be able to watch whatever you want on TV that night. [00:54:30] You know, there’s I think sometimes we have to be honest enough to recognise that. But [00:54:35] it’s you want people to understand your purpose. And if you can communicate your vision and your purpose to them, [00:54:40] more often than not they’ll have a deeper understanding. And they may want to come back, or they may want to [00:54:45] even tell their friends about it. And I think that’s important in marketing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but how [00:54:50] do you communicate your purpose to your patients? [00:54:55]

Alan Clarke: I think it’s through the way that our staff treat each other, and if they can see how [00:55:00] we look after our staff and how the staff interact with each other, they’ll start to see our values. [00:55:05] It’s how we communicate to our patients and what we talk about and what we tell them and how we go [00:55:10] the extra mile for them or integrate them.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk patient journey then. Is it [00:55:15] such a different patient journey than the average or what is it?

Alan Clarke: I wouldn’t say.

Payman Langroudi: So.

Alan Clarke: I wouldn’t [00:55:20] say so. I think, you know, we’re very we’re very clear as to how we communicate to patients ahead [00:55:25] of their visit. We’re trying, you know, everything’s digitised. We have a really nice patient flow [00:55:30] whenever they come in. If they’re having a cosmetic consultation, we’ve got a photo suite. So we take photographs of them, we take [00:55:35] intraoral scans. We sort of diagnose with the patient. So it’s very much a learning together. [00:55:40] And lots of those things are done in lots of dental practices across the country. I think it’s just the [00:55:45] attitude of our staff and the way that we present it, um, is what I would like to think makes [00:55:50] us unique.

Payman Langroudi: But go on. What is that?

Alan Clarke: I think it’s [00:55:55] I think it’s probably just the way that we give. I think [00:56:00] it’s probably just the way that we approach to give them time and. Like [00:56:05] invest in what they’re doing. You know, if you look at if you look at any other [00:56:10] luxury, if you look at a luxury product or hotel, they can all sit at five star, but one will [00:56:15] be very conversational and relaxed, and another might be somewhat stuffy, and both will [00:56:20] interact differently with their consumer. I think for us in our client, I think we understand our client [00:56:25] really carefully and we know where they’re coming from. So to [00:56:30] give you an example, we have a client, we’re running late and she needs to jump on a zoom call. So we make [00:56:35] her a cup of coffee and she sits upstairs in one of our treatment rooms, and she runs her zoom call for 2 or 3 hours. And [00:56:40] that’s where she works from for the rest of the day. And that’s seen as a normal behaviour. That’s not seen [00:56:45] as odd, that’s seen as like us facilitating her. But I think probably for some other businesses they [00:56:50] would see that as, oh, well, why is she still upstairs. What’s she doing? But for us it’s like, well, if she comes to [00:56:55] us we invest in her. So anything that we can do to make her day run more smoothly, like we’re there for it. [00:57:00]

Alan Clarke: If it means coming in on a Saturday morning, if it means that they have my cell phone that they can contact me [00:57:05] during the weekend and I’m going to reply a message to them. Our staff will message them throughout the weekend if [00:57:10] they need to. I think it’s just like the nature of how we facilitate relationships. [00:57:15] Like we have got relationships with a lot of the movie studios that work. Belfast is a big filming [00:57:20] and destination. Game of Thrones. There’s a big production being filmed right now, and [00:57:25] if we need to go to set for someone, we’ll go to set for them if we need to do something like that, [00:57:30] you know? So I think there’s just that element of luxury is flexibility and [00:57:35] meeting someone where they’re at and doing things to give them memorable moments. And we try to build that into [00:57:40] our psyche for our staff, that if they can do something to make that person’s day more [00:57:45] special, that they can make that person feel more seen. It becomes something [00:57:50] that culturally, they then want to do more of because they see the [00:57:55] feeling that it gives the staff member. And they see that the feeling that that gives that patient. I think that’s the [00:58:00] culture that underpins it over and above what we post on Instagram, or what the image looks [00:58:05] like or the like. The static flatness of it. I think it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Almost the going the extra mile.

Alan Clarke: Going the extra mile. [00:58:10] But it’s luxury is flexibility. And I think that’s the thing. It’s like meeting someone. There isn’t a prescriptive nature [00:58:15] to it. You know, we don’t say to our team you have to do X, Y and Z. You have to have so many patient [00:58:20] interactions that are positive, and we’re going to measure you on that. But it’s like.

Payman Langroudi: They’re empowered anyway, right?

Alan Clarke: You [00:58:25] have to teach. They have to be empowered to do it. And then they have to want to do it. And you have to treat them right that they [00:58:30] want to go the extra mile. I think it’s like a, you know, there’s.

Payman Langroudi: I agree with you. I agree with you. I mean, [00:58:35] I often think about the phone being answered and [00:58:40] you can’t you can’t force someone to be happy when they answer the phone. Like, you [00:58:45] know, you can’t say be really happy when you answer the phone. They’ve got to actually be happy before [00:58:50] they answer the phone. If you.

Alan Clarke: Can. [00:58:55] People can, people can. People can sniff out inauthenticity. [00:59:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think then that’s the thing though, when like for dentists now you get a lot of dentists [00:59:05] that know they’ve learned what they’re supposed to do [00:59:10] and then they’re like, well I want tremendous financial gain. So how [00:59:15] do you then have them maintain that authenticity in it because [00:59:20] that can get lost. You know, there’s a lot of things can like.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I ask I ask a question. I go into dental [00:59:25] practices quite a lot, as you can imagine. Right. And I we make them do this thing [00:59:30] over a period of a week where they hyper focus on whitening and [00:59:35] just to see the potential of the place for whitening. And, you know, it’s it’s different. It’s work. [00:59:40] Yeah. It’s doing something different to your usual week. Yeah. And so I always think and [00:59:45] I’ve seen we’ve done it so many times that I can see when it works and when it doesn’t work. Yeah. And my advice [00:59:50] to the principal in that week is to do something to make it more fun [00:59:55] to be at work. Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Clarke: Because because then you’re overloading them with extra tasks.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve [01:00:00] ruined their week with these extra work here. So now we don’t want that week [01:00:05] to be remembered as a difficult one.

Alan Clarke: They came in and ruined my happiness. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So. So do [01:00:10] something for your team to make it happier. Yeah. Then I say I’m sitting with, I don’t know, 27 [01:00:15] people from a practice. Yeah. I said, what would it take to make coming to work more [01:00:20] fun? Yeah. And always. Silence.

Alan Clarke: Money. [01:00:25]

Payman Langroudi: No. Silence. Silence. No. Actually, we talk about money as well. Yeah, we talk about [01:00:30] money. Money is a separate issue. Yeah. We set a target. If they hit the target, they get a night [01:00:35] out. I mean, it’s not even money, but what would it take to make it more fun to come [01:00:40] to work? Just silence. Just silence. Yeah. And it’s so interesting [01:00:45] because it may might be the most important question that everyone needs to answer. Yeah. [01:00:50] And whether it’s.

Alan Clarke: What’s like the best days whenever a dog comes in. Everyone loves [01:00:55] a dog.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Alan Clarke: Do you know whenever someone brings in, like their support animal and then the staff are like, [01:01:00] yeah, yeah, you know, something so small like that, it changes the it changes the mood to Bryant. [01:01:05]

Payman Langroudi: And they’ve got like 5 or 6 dogs of the team all around it.

Alan Clarke: We have we [01:01:10] have a patient. And she brought her emotional support cat her Sphynx a naked cat dressed up as [01:01:15] a frog. Great day. We had a patient once brought their [01:01:20] emotional support bird and sat there with the bird support bird. You can’t write it. It’s [01:01:25] the day that we talk about. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re positioning it paced. I mean, like you’re saying [01:01:30] you’re positioned towards millennials. You’re positioned luxury. [01:01:35] Does that mean it’s expensive dentistry. Is it that.

Alan Clarke: No I would say.

Payman Langroudi: Is it the higher end?

Alan Clarke: The [01:01:40] higher end for sure. But we don’t sit at like the most expensive end of the market. It still has to have [01:01:45] like it’s I’d say probably 70, 70% towards the higher end, 7,080%, [01:01:50] but not 100% by any means.

Payman Langroudi: But what do you charge for a crown?

Alan Clarke: And [01:01:55] 7.95.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:02:00] fair.

Alan Clarke: Yeah. So we’re, you know.

Payman Langroudi: You know.

Alan Clarke: 500. [01:02:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. That’s fair, that’s fair.

Alan Clarke: Um, we we [01:02:10] use great materials and we use great labs. And I [01:02:15] think a lot of my learnings from the US in terms of the way I practice in that. And so [01:02:20] it was very much to like, let’s, let’s level up and be able to offer the same level of [01:02:25] expertise that they do in America here. Um, and, and that’s important, you [01:02:30] know.

Payman Langroudi: And what did you do regarding growing it paced.

Alan Clarke: Yeah. The practice. [01:02:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Because you said you said it was.

Alan Clarke: Quite.

Payman Langroudi: Small and now there’s lots of associates.

Alan Clarke: Yeah. Well we worked with influencers [01:02:40] at the start. So, um, we worked with an influencer whenever we launched. A friend of mine who I did [01:02:45] a small makeover, um, on. And that was a good catalyst. And we ran we [01:02:50] ran like a competition around that. And that was really successful. And we have a lot [01:02:55] of corporate partnerships that we’ve grown. So as I said, we work with movie studios. And so we’re very fortunate to have [01:03:00] those contracts, which is exciting. And we work with shipping companies because we’re in [01:03:05] the city. So there’s a lot of, um, you know, we’re in the docks. So there’s that. We [01:03:10] also have I’m in next week with one of our big hotel groups doing, um, a conference [01:03:15] for all their team and where I go in and present about dentistry. And we do that with also co-work spaces [01:03:20] in the city. So there’s been like lots of different corporate things.

Payman Langroudi: We are you are you personally [01:03:25] approaching these people? Are you using family connections? I mean, how are you getting into all these corporates? [01:03:30]

Alan Clarke: Um, I’m mix sometimes [01:03:35] through patients who work there. One of the, one of the co-work spaces where 300 [01:03:40] businesses work through was a direct referral from a patient that we’d done composite [01:03:45] bonding, smile makeover, whitening. And she was like, oh my goodness. Like lots of my colleagues would love to [01:03:50] meet with you guys. Is there something that you would offer and do? And we had to sit down and work out. Well, what does a corporate [01:03:55] rate look like? How do we go in and do a Dental day? And now we do them often? Um, [01:04:00] we’ve worked with the university, we’ve worked with Queen’s doing things for like, um, freshers [01:04:05] fairs, uh, and talk to that community and young students and, [01:04:10] and sort of the student residences. And then honestly, like referrals and word of [01:04:15] mouth is always going to be our strongest, you know, if someone’s had treatment that they like or an experience [01:04:20] that they had with one of the, the team, the associates, and it’s not even just the associates. It’s like the nurse [01:04:25] or our front of house manager. Like those people are instrumental in referrals. [01:04:30] They’re the people that change, you know, change the way [01:04:35] our practice is viewed. They’re the the kind of the, the stability sometimes [01:04:40] in it that patients know that you know, they, they, they know they’re going to ring. And there’s [01:04:45] always going to be one of two people answer the phone. And either of those can deal with their, you know, what they need and they’re [01:04:50] happy with that.

Alan Clarke: But it’s a hard market, you know. You know, like it’s dentistry is hard. [01:04:55] And working with the public is difficult. Working, managing. You know, you go in myself like [01:05:00] I went in not knowing how to run a dental practice like no one had ever taught me. Yeah, yeah, I’ve just [01:05:05] made loads of mistakes. Probably annoyed half the team, so much so that they like, were miserable. [01:05:10] You know, there’s there’s probably a lot of stuff, but we have to like [01:05:15] think positively too. And like the purpose of it. You know, we can get trapped in the the day [01:05:20] to day. And we have to kind of like zoom out and be like, well, why are we bothering doing this? Because I was happy as an associate. [01:05:25] Me too. I loved being an associate. I liked my practice, and I earned well. I didn’t [01:05:30] have all the business. You know, I wasn’t sitting at ten at night doing doing work [01:05:35] like I currently know. I probably have 17 emails I need to respond to that were urgent last week. [01:05:40] Urgent that I flagged, you know, that’s the kind of the constant. Yeah. But also [01:05:45] I feel maybe more now as [01:05:50] I look to other things. But if you’re an entrepreneur, you kind of have it in you. Like, why did you, why did you why did you [01:05:55] create this?

Payman Langroudi: But yeah, I know we used to talk about it in [01:06:00] university. We used to talk about opening a supply company. Um, as a [01:06:05] joke. But you did it. But we did it. Yeah.

Alan Clarke: But there’s probably a few other people [01:06:10] that talked about it and never did it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, but my partners are like the guys I used to live with in university. Okay. [01:06:15] Um, but no, I was going to ask. Okay. You empower your staff, you tell them to go [01:06:20] out their way. You you not tell them. You sort of inspire them to go out of their way. [01:06:25]

Alan Clarke: Hopefully.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Alan Clarke: Do you do do.

Payman Langroudi: You do anything tactical regarding [01:06:30] sort of talk triggers like getting people to talk about you.

Alan Clarke: To talk about me. [01:06:35]

Payman Langroudi: The practice.

Alan Clarke: In the practice.

Payman Langroudi: What do you talk about? The practice. You [01:06:40] know, you said you said if it’s very transactional, you go, you get your blueberries and you leave. But [01:06:45] if it’s if it’s a lifestyle brand, you tell people about it. What I’m thinking of is.

Alan Clarke: We don’t [01:06:50] we don’t super curate that. No we don’t. And I think I think we try to keep it as [01:06:55] natural as possible. But we do try to like we do try to communicate value. So [01:07:00] it’s important for us if we’re having a new patient into the practice, we’ll talk about using [01:07:05] our intraoral scanner and the benefits of it and why it’s super accurate and actually makes the process much, [01:07:10] you know, much nicer, much calmer for the patient. Or we’ll talk about the technology [01:07:15] that we use, where we use AI for our radiographs and we add value. Yeah we use Pearl. [01:07:20] And and I love that. And I love that technology. And it works super well for [01:07:25] for me and for patients because then they’ve never seen this before. So if we can add value at [01:07:30] a lot of the things I think, you know, marketing necessarily it’s communicating [01:07:35] a story to people, but often it’s communicating the things that we forget to talk about. And you could [01:07:40] they could come into a dental practice and not realise that. Well, actually, your nurse has spent the last [01:07:45] ten minutes setting up specifically for them or they’ve, you know, zoned out part of the diary for them [01:07:50] to facilitate or they’ve moved someone else to. So I think sometimes just communicating what’s going on is important. [01:07:55] If the patient knows that you’ve went out of their way, they’re going to be really happy that they heard that. [01:08:00] So sometimes talking about these things is important. Adding value, talking about the equipment that you use, the materials that [01:08:05] you use, the way the team is trained. You know, we’ve just sent a number of our nurses in a scanning course, [01:08:10] so I’m pretty sure that will be talked about this week after last week to talk about.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got have you got [01:08:15] a list of banned words and a list of, you know, like the I don’t know if you’ve seen, [01:08:20] um, Zach Cara smile stories.

Alan Clarke: No. Does he have a list of like.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:08:25] the banned words and alternative words that everyone uses. You know.

Alan Clarke: No, we don’t have anything as prescriptive, [01:08:30] but, I mean, maybe it’s a good idea. Maybe we need to learn, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And so how long was [01:08:35] it before you thought this is working financially? Was it?

Alan Clarke: I don’t know if I still [01:08:40] think that it is. I don’t know if I’m not at that point yet. Like it’s still in the group. Yeah, it’s still in [01:08:45] the growth phase. Like it is working financially, but I don’t I [01:08:50] don’t sort of retrospect on it and be like, well, let’s treat every month because you have like January [01:08:55] is a slow month. You know, January was a quiet month. And then February kicks off and February is much better. [01:09:00] And you panic and then but then I look back to January [01:09:05] last year and I’m like, oh, it was a slow month then too. And then February, March, April were great, you know. So [01:09:10] I don’t think there’s I think the only thing that I would say about having a practice is there’s [01:09:15] never stability and there’s never status quo. There’s elements of it always even [01:09:20] in the crisis, there’s stability. Um, but there’s always elements [01:09:25] of surprise. And I think that’s it. And I think being a business owner, it’s just learning [01:09:30] to kind of you just maybe learn to cope with that better. And you don’t let it, like, [01:09:35] destabilise you as quickly. You know, at the start I’d be like, oh my goodness, where’s the patience? Why are they not? Why not bringing [01:09:40] this in? Or there’s something that’s going on that’s a disaster, or this staff member is off sick and this is a disaster. [01:09:45] Then suddenly you’re like, okay, well, we can cope with that. Or well, we coped with that better then. And and you just kind [01:09:50] of have to learn. And I don’t have all the answers by any means, but I’m hopefully [01:09:55] trying. That’s all I would say. Like I’m trying.

Payman Langroudi: Have you done any paid ads? [01:10:00]

Alan Clarke: Um, honestly, no. We dabbled with it for like [01:10:05] 2 or 3 months. I didn’t I didn’t think it was super the way that we did it. I didn’t think was super targeted, [01:10:10] and it didn’t bring us the right patients. So I pulled it, and we haven’t done it since. We may do it down the [01:10:15] line. I may do it for other things, but I need to get hyper focussed on the target market.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [01:10:20] move on to Paste Presents, because that’s what we were really known for around [01:10:25] 20 minutes into the conversation.

Alan Clarke: Okay, paste [01:10:30] presents, where do you want to start?

Payman Langroudi: For someone who doesn’t know what it is, just outline it. First [01:10:35] of all.

Alan Clarke: It’s a dental mastermind. And it takes, um, really [01:10:40] influential dentists from around the world. But I would say primarily the US and the UK, um, [01:10:45] because those are the markets that I know best. Um, and these are dentists who are in the media, [01:10:50] who are influencers who maybe teach a course or have done [01:10:55] something, done something external in dentistry, maybe, or growing a product or a business. People that would [01:11:00] benefit from learning from each other. And it’s, um, it’s a way [01:11:05] for these individuals to have a really great experience, to learn from each other [01:11:10] and to go through a shared experience. So we took 22 people to Morocco [01:11:15] in September last year, and for them, a lot of them, it was their first time there. They’d [01:11:20] never they’d never travelled to Marrakesh. So they’re discovering it through fresh [01:11:25] eyes. They’re bonding with the people that they’re getting to hang [01:11:30] out with and they’re building friendships. And I just wanted something that my goal for it, [01:11:35] Um, and I worked, you know, I worked with my good friend Ramon and Sam [01:11:40] Salah, who maybe know from Beverly Hills. And my goal for starting PS presents [01:11:45] was to. To let people build real relationships [01:11:50] rather than going to a CPD event and watch a speaker and then feel removed [01:11:55] from it. You know, you even get even in the US, you get speaker events, they come in, they do [01:12:00] their presentation, they leave the speakers go away off to separate space to have lunch. There’s no interaction.

Alan Clarke: They come [01:12:05] back on stage, there’s smoke, machines blow. It’s a horse show, you know, it’s very impressive, [01:12:10] but there’s no real intimacy with it. And so if I was to create something I wanted to create, [01:12:15] you know, we wanted to create an event that was really intimate and that people would go away [01:12:20] having built friendships that could turn into business partnerships, that could turn into an educational [01:12:25] platform together, that could turn into a relationship, whatever that is. We just wanted [01:12:30] people to have something that was real and a little bit grittier and and it was a risk [01:12:35] and I think it’s paid off. But it was a risk. It was probably the [01:12:40] biggest risk I’ve taken, because there were a lot of people in the industry here that told me that I couldn’t do it. Literally [01:12:45] told me that they didn’t want to work with me or I couldn’t do it. And I got such support from the [01:12:50] US where they were like, oh my goodness, this is a great idea. We love it. Let’s take a [01:12:55] punt on the promise. Um, and it was epic and it was amazing. And, [01:13:00] um, we will go from strength to strength and we’re going to Vietnam this year. So it’s going to be [01:13:05] like a major thing we’ve already got. I think three quarters of the space is filled with really big names [01:13:10] coming. Um, and yeah, I don’t [01:13:15] know. What’s your views on it? What do you think? You’ve seen it from the outside.

Payman Langroudi: Impressive, impressive. [01:13:20] I mean, I said to first of all, how did you meet Ramin?

Alan Clarke: Um, [01:13:25] Joe Lovett had put Ramin and I in touch, uh, a period of time ago. Yeah. Um, and [01:13:30] he just said, you need to meet Ramon. He’s a cool guy. And then we went for lunch one day, [01:13:35] and Ramon was just so enthusiastic and keen to kind of get involved. And yeah, had this heart for [01:13:40] building community, which I think is very evident. You know, you know him well. He’s a good soul. [01:13:45] He has really good heart. And, um, and so, yeah, [01:13:50] like my vision, I had this event that I wanted to pull off and [01:13:55] create and and yeah, like, it was a risk, but it [01:14:00] paid off. I was I said it was it was cool.

Payman Langroudi: I said, I said to Ramon, if you do [01:14:05] something like this, which is sort of totally different, then you must [01:14:10] expect it to lose lots of money in the first.

Alan Clarke: Yeah, I lost lots of money.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, in the first [01:14:15] look, we lost money.

Alan Clarke: Everyone does though.

Payman Langroudi: We lost money with mini smile makeover for the first two [01:14:20] years. 2 or 3 years, I think. Um, not everyone does. Some people, [01:14:25] some people, you know, strike it lucky.

Alan Clarke: And I think it was the learning to like, I didn’t know, you know, we we [01:14:30] created this amazing experience. And then towards the end I was like, oh, it’s just so good. If we add that in [01:14:35] and we added in elements and you get carried away with this, this.

Payman Langroudi: Is the issue with events in general. Yeah. Because if you [01:14:40] want an event to be amazing, you you end up losing money, not necessarily losing actual [01:14:45] profit.

Alan Clarke: To bring it to the market was so important that we brought something so [01:14:50] arresting, and it had to be. And I wanted it to be, and I wanted it to be just so visually [01:14:55] arresting, but also like inspiring with the people that came and and it was honestly like it was a, [01:15:00] it was just, it was like another job on top of my work, you know, my practice would say, like, he’s always talking about [01:15:05] that. He’s always focussed on that. At 11 at night, he’s still working. And it did become a bit all consuming, [01:15:10] which this year it’s it’s not. And we’re so, so much better or I’m so much better [01:15:15] organised with the little team of people that help me on at night. Um, and you know, it’s, it’s [01:15:20] it’s amazing. Um, but it had to take, you know, there’s a lot of people that it needed to take that proof of concept. [01:15:25] And we had really great sponsors like I’m a Cole for Pearl. I as I [01:15:30] said to you, you know, before Pearl were great at getting involved in sponsoring it and [01:15:35] Mark and the team at Surrey were amazing. And they they saw the vision. And one [01:15:40] of our other sponsors is an American company called Coco Floss. I don’t know if [01:15:45] you know them. They’re very cool. They’re not in the UK really yet. Incredible product and the [01:15:50] nicest, most genuine owners you will ever meet. I’m absolutely [01:15:55] love that company and their values and their people. And you [01:16:00] know, part of Pierce presents was we were we wanted to have really, really like open [01:16:05] and candid business discussions. So John Moraschi, celebrity dentist from [01:16:10] uh, the US who treats, you know, from Cher to a whole host [01:16:15] of stars, um, was presenting and how he grew bite and $1 billion company and had $1 billion [01:16:20] exit. So, you know, things that he hadn’t presented on and it was new knowledge and really kind of intimate [01:16:25] questions and answers on on this sort of path to real financial success.

Payman Langroudi: How did you get [01:16:30] to these people?

Alan Clarke: Just being bold and brave and using the contacts [01:16:35] I had and reaching out to people and chatting to them and selling them my vision.

Payman Langroudi: Did you get to Sam Sarli? [01:16:40]

Alan Clarke: How did I get to Sam? Again, just reaching out through contacts and and [01:16:45] being hopeful that he would want to take a call. And now being very privileged to call [01:16:50] him a friend. And and I think being honest about the purpose of it. You know, I [01:16:55] wasn’t going in to make money on this. I was very clear, you know, would I like it to be profitable [01:17:00] as it goes on? Of course I would. But from the word go, I didn’t. I wasn’t trying to make money [01:17:05] with it. This had to be something that can we can we prove the winners? Can we do it? You know. Um, [01:17:10] but it had to be something that also had value, too. So we gave back [01:17:15] to, um, people that had been affected by the earthquake in, in Morocco, uh, [01:17:20] the previous year. And we, you know, reached out through contacts. I have there to be [01:17:25] able to meet with community leaders and to do oral health demonstrations and to meet with kids. And [01:17:30] there had to be something that people understood their purpose and underpinned, [01:17:35] actually. Well, yes, we can talk about business, but we also need to pair business [01:17:40] with the community of the people that we’re spending time with and the community of why did we get into [01:17:45] dentistry in the first place? And it was really great that some of our sponsors wanted to get on board with supplying [01:17:50] dental equipment for that, and they bought into the vision and understood it. And [01:17:55] I think I think there’s a lot of things in the market, [01:18:00] but I really did approach it with hopefully a sense of altruism to to do [01:18:05] something for a reason. And yeah, and hopefully it continues to grow and [01:18:10] it has to be a watch this space. But um, I’m glad we did [01:18:15] it for sure. I’m glad that it was a risk. It was a risk. You know, it took a few [01:18:20] weeks afterwards to come down for it and be like, what just happened? But it was it was worth. You’ve done a bit. You know what it’s [01:18:25] like. Like it’s, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, it’s it’s hard.

Alan Clarke: It’s hard, but it’s also taking a risk. We were taking people to a foreign [01:18:30] country, you know, we didn’t know if things would go wrong. If someone [01:18:35] gets food poisoning, if someone has an allergic reaction, if something goes wrong there, it’s on me. [01:18:40] And as the event got closer, you know, you build in provisions, you build in insurances, you [01:18:45] build in. But we just had to be so, so careful and a learning experience. It was for sure. Um, [01:18:50] and I’m so fortunate that it went went well. But you know, dotting [01:18:55] your i’s and crossing your t’s time and time again for sure.

Payman Langroudi: So. Okay. It [01:19:00] went well insomuch as people were interested in it.

Alan Clarke: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But you lost money. [01:19:05]

Alan Clarke: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so is the interest the point like the attention. [01:19:10]

Alan Clarke: Not not the interest or the attention. Because that seems kind of empty. So like we now [01:19:15] have dentists who are working together on projects from the US and the UK. We’ve [01:19:20] got dentists who have went into business together on other projects themselves.

Payman Langroudi: Give me an. [01:19:25]

Alan Clarke: Example. I can’t I can’t go into detail too much on it because it’s not mine to share. But I [01:19:30] know that there are members of our community that have that are are doing [01:19:35] significant projects together, and these are people that wouldn’t have met otherwise. [01:19:40] And so I think that’s really cool. And this could be at a lower level. There’s some at a lower level and some at a much [01:19:45] higher level. And people have built friendships and we’ve had people [01:19:50] network and start to see the UK and the US working a little [01:19:55] bit more closely together, rather than being so siloed. Um, there’s sponsorship [01:20:00] companies that are breaking into the US that hopefully we can help with, and also vice [01:20:05] versa coming to the UK. I went into it with a, I went into [01:20:10] it initially with I had a vision to take a group of friends to Morocco on a [01:20:15] trip, and, and I met with Ramin Ramon and he wanted to run a big student event in Morocco. [01:20:20] And so slowly, well, we we realised that neither of those were going [01:20:25] to work on their own. And if we work together on something and tried to help each other out for our own ends, that’s there’s more [01:20:30] strength working together. And then the event had to really pivot and go a little bit higher end to understand, well, [01:20:35] who’s, you know, who wants to come to this and who wants to take time out of their clinic for this.

Alan Clarke: And, and [01:20:40] as we created the brand and as I shaped what Pace presents became, then it [01:20:45] becomes so valuable to learn from the community that’s involved. And the community has to take ownership [01:20:50] and and whatever comes of it. I certainly know how people felt and enjoyed it. And I’m really [01:20:55] the success for me was could could I pull it off? It’s the impact. Could I pull it off? The [01:21:00] challenge to me was, hey, could I pull this off and can we do something again with it? And that’s the kind of win [01:21:05] it lost money. But that’s okay too, because I wanted to see could [01:21:10] I do it? And also what is the impact. And it has had a lasting impact for people. And also people [01:21:15] need to feel the community needs to be able to take a bit of ownership of it themselves. And that has [01:21:20] happened, which is nice. But also it has to sit, you know, this year it’s going even higher [01:21:25] end and it has to sit at this sort of pinnacle point in dentistry as to the people that [01:21:30] are and, you know, I look at the client list that’s coming this year and, you know, we have really world renowned speakers [01:21:35] coming and paying to come. And it’s it levels the playing field in terms of these [01:21:40] people are all choosing to do financially and with their time to be there, to have the learning. [01:21:45]

Payman Langroudi: What does it cost?

Alan Clarke: It’s well, it’s, uh, this year it’s $15,000 [01:21:50] for the five days.

Payman Langroudi: And would you get [01:21:55] flights and things or no.

Alan Clarke: Flights, accommodation, everything. The minute you hit the ground, everything’s included. [01:22:00]

Payman Langroudi: Okay, okay. That’s quite a lot, isn’t it? 15,000.

Alan Clarke: It’s a lot. Of course it [01:22:05] is. So?

Payman Langroudi: So I like it.

Alan Clarke: You have to remember. You have to remember where they’re saying. And you have to think of [01:22:10] it. Yeah, yeah. The raw product costs.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a.

Alan Clarke: Beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a beautiful place. It’s a beautiful place. You showed me on [01:22:15] the on the website. But what I’m interested in is, you know, there’s enough people [01:22:20] I can see in the US. Definitely there’s enough people who take a punt on that and say, you know, [01:22:25] I might.

Alan Clarke: The only thing I would say to people is give it a go and see what you think of it yourself, or [01:22:30] speak to someone that’s been and and I think that’s probably where I would draw pause on it at that [01:22:35] point, because I think it’s through the eyes of someone that’s seen it. And the experience that [01:22:40] we’ve created is really does sit very, very differently to anything that I’d experienced [01:22:45] in dentistry. And that was my sort of goal. It was to how can we create something that [01:22:50] would be the real ultimate event or something that I would really think, oh goodness, I wish our profession would do something [01:22:55] like other professions do. What would that look like? And and [01:23:00] yeah, like we will see what happens. And I go candidly in with a kind of a, an [01:23:05] optimism, a quiet, hopeful, quiet confidence, but also like a kind of reserved ness of like, I [01:23:10] hope this works and I hope that people get from it what they got the last time. And. [01:23:15] And I’m building out a whole sort of ecosystem slightly around [01:23:20] it for, for. Different touch points. But pace presents I would love it [01:23:25] and it would be such a lovely legacy if that is something that can continue to grow, that people at that sort of top end [01:23:30] can have a safe space to learn together and in a way that attracts them to keep wanting to come [01:23:35] back. And it’s not going to be the nature of where they’re staying, but it’s going to be the nature [01:23:40] of the relationships that they build in that, and that’s ultimately up to them [01:23:45] and how the people that that come interact with each other, you know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s cool. [01:23:50] And then to to kind of counterbalance that, we’ve got maybe this thing which is [01:23:55] like maybe the height right at the top end to counterbalance that, you’re doing three events at Dental schools [01:24:00] is free, right?

Alan Clarke: Yeah, free. Completely free.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting. The two [01:24:05] ones, you’ve got to fill the middle.

Alan Clarke: That’s it.

Payman Langroudi: But Tell [01:24:10] me about. Tell me about Dental schools. What are you doing in Dental so.

Alan Clarke: Well?

Payman Langroudi: Literally tonight.

Alan Clarke: Literally tonight, [01:24:15] there’s 130, 130 Dental students and young dentists coming. And I’m talking to [01:24:20] them and talking to them about their careers and that sort of jump into practice. [01:24:25] And that’s scary jump and how they can create [01:24:30] a community themselves, how we can help them create a community across the UK and hopefully further afield [01:24:35] where they can support each other at the stage that they’re at. I think for me, with Pace Presents, [01:24:40] I saw the value in community and how people interact with each other and [01:24:45] really like the the learning that we get is shared. It’s the learning that as people work on [01:24:50] a project together, they they get it’s not always face to face, it’s but like shoulder to shoulder. [01:24:55] So if we can do that for dental students at that stage, that’s definitely somewhere that I didn’t feel super [01:25:00] supported. You’re supported enough in terms of you’re going into and you understand [01:25:05] the nature of going into practice, which is usually in an NHS or predominantly [01:25:10] NHS practice, you know, the obligations, the expectations. But suddenly, if you’re wanting [01:25:15] to transition into private practice or transition into a different element of your career, you’re sort of you’re [01:25:20] really lost at that point. But, you know, there’s a lot of courses out there. You go to any Dental show. There’s a lot of [01:25:25] people wanting to sign you up to something to take your money to put you on a pathway, and you don’t really [01:25:30] know how to pull it all together. And so if I can start to help shine a light [01:25:35] on what I’ve done or pull from the knowledge of pace presents and that, you know, the key [01:25:40] people that are positioned around the world that have done lots of really interesting things, if that [01:25:45] can inspire others to maybe learn from our mistakes or to grow themselves [01:25:50] and to also, you know, to also understand that, you [01:25:55] know, I started project based in Belfast last week and [01:26:00] there was a moment during it and I thought to myself, if someone had told me this at this stage, how would I have felt? And I [01:26:05] think I would have felt quite inspired, but inspired because I was trying to teach these guys.

Alan Clarke: Listen, I’m [01:26:10] from Belfast and and I was able to do something really kind of interesting and different. So it’s [01:26:15] about getting these students to understand that they don’t have a ceiling, and it’s the only ceiling is just to what they [01:26:20] self, you know, their circumstances or themselves place. So if we can get a few people [01:26:25] thinking outside the box, then I think that’s a win. And, and we’re in its infancy. Like let’s [01:26:30] see what happens. Again, I go into these things with like a hopeful optimism. If it doesn’t [01:26:35] work, we iterate. But I definitely think there’s value to it. And the response is showing me [01:26:40] that there’s certainly people are interacting. So hopefully they hopefully they get something out [01:26:45] of it that they feel is beneficial. That’s all I can hope.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re going around a bunch of Dental [01:26:50] schools.

Alan Clarke: Yeah. So I’ve got really great. I’m working with Surrey again, um, who I have a great relationship [01:26:55] with, um, with Henry Shine one and Dental and um, [01:27:00] with figs. So figs haven’t done very much in the UK yet. Um, and, uh, [01:27:05] I know their CEO and their and their team. Well.

Payman Langroudi: And how’d you meet them?

Alan Clarke: How did [01:27:10] I meet them again? Through, uh, a friend of a friend put me in touch, [01:27:15] and it’s being at the right place at the right time. And [01:27:20] a lot of it I’ll put down to. It’s a bit higher than me. What happened? And, um. [01:27:25] Yeah, they’re they’re a cool company. And I feel.

Payman Langroudi: Like your superpower is you’re not afraid [01:27:30] to ask, you know? Yeah.

Alan Clarke: Like, I’ll be bold enough to ask, but I’ll also, like, give first. [01:27:35] Like, that’s the thing. You know, even with companies that I’ve worked with, I’m like, well, listen, I’ve said, listen, [01:27:40] we’re trying an event. Do you want to try it? And we’ll we’ll include you in it, you know, even with pace presents. Um, [01:27:45] well, let’s try something. And and if it doesn’t work, okay, cool. But [01:27:50] if it does work, at least you’ll see that we tried for you. And I think I go into any relationship [01:27:55] trying to be like, well, what can I give to help you guys? And if it helps me, like pay it forward, there’ll [01:28:00] be something in it. And, I, you know, last week I was in LA with Sam Saleh and John Marucci. [01:28:05] I was at the Fig’s headquarters in Santa Monica. I was, you know, in the CEO of Perls House [01:28:10] with him, his wife hanging out. And you get these amazing opportunities. Yeah. No fear.

Payman Langroudi: And I [01:28:15] like it.

Alan Clarke: Oh, fear is very cool. I like fear a lot. He’s a very cool guy. Um, and [01:28:20] I’m in his wood shop, you know, and he’s showing me how he does his woodwork. And, like, we just [01:28:25] hung out, and, you know, you don’t know what’s going to come from a relationship [01:28:30] or investing in someone. And it may be nigh and it may be in the future, but I would just be I just [01:28:35] tell people to like, be bold and be open to to chatting and also don’t, like go [01:28:40] in with an expectation. Like you, I always tell people, I always say that the best trips [01:28:45] I’ve taken to the US. I was in Chicago last February. I went to the midwinter [01:28:50] meeting and I felt I was supposed to go and I had like one meeting that I was going to and I was going to see some friends, and [01:28:55] I kept my diary a bit open, and I didn’t really know why, but I just had this feeling like I’m supposed to [01:29:00] be on this trip. And of course, it ends up being one of the best trips that I’ve had. All these meetings suddenly [01:29:05] fell into the diary, and because you’re there, suddenly it all makes sense and you realise, oh, I was supposed [01:29:10] to be here at this time for that.

Payman Langroudi: Are you very fatalistic?

Alan Clarke: Not. [01:29:15] Not a bit. Probably a little bit. I have, but like a couple of times [01:29:20] I said, I don’t feel like it’s just me, though. Like, I do have a faith. And that’s important to me for sure. [01:29:25]

Payman Langroudi: Do you believe in God?

Alan Clarke: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: This noise we’ve had every [01:29:30] single noise.

Alan Clarke: I do for sure. But also I believe that, like you, you. Sometimes [01:29:35] the things you just have to be present and turn up and. Yeah. No, I do have a faith. And I think it’s important to like, [01:29:40] just, you know, realise, like, sometimes there’s things that are bigger than you. And if [01:29:45] it’s supposed to be, it’ll happen, you know. Maybe that sounds a bit woo woo for people, but.

Payman Langroudi: No, [01:29:50] but it’s fine. It’s fine. But I’m saying a couple of times you said the feeling was right. It felt right. And [01:29:55] I, you know, yeah I do.

Alan Clarke: I’m very intuitive. So I do like I would listen to that.

Payman Langroudi: Do you trust your instincts?

Alan Clarke: I [01:30:00] do trust my instincts. Yeah. Sometimes it gets me, you know, it’s not always right, but a lot of the time, [01:30:05] you know, if you’re on the right path with something. Yeah, for sure. I think that’s important. And I’ve [01:30:10] made mistakes whenever I’ve disregarded that or not listened to it. So I do find a solace sometimes [01:30:15] in that to be like. And sometimes it may be just pattern recognition. Yeah. Hey, you’ve [01:30:20] got burnt in the past. Your intuition is telling you you’re probably going to get burnt again, like take a different [01:30:25] path, or.

Payman Langroudi: It’s almost like you’re going into this not particularly planning tactically [01:30:30] where it’s going to take you.

Alan Clarke: There’s an element of strategy to it, but there’s also an element of turning up. [01:30:35] And I think that’s the thing for entrepreneurship is often like taking the first steps [01:30:40] with it and being bold enough to be brave to see what happens rather than going in to say, like, [01:30:45] you know, I’m going to do this, this and this. This is my five year plan. Like, I love the phrase, [01:30:50] if you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans because you don’t know what’s going to happen tomorrow. [01:30:55] But it’s like with the attitude that you bring to it. I think that’s the important thing because that [01:31:00] can be consistent.

Payman Langroudi: We like discussing mistakes on this pod. Generally [01:31:05] clinical mistakes. But I’m interested in where you think you’ve made a mistake [01:31:10] on this journey.

Alan Clarke: Not clinically. Like on other [01:31:15] things.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Alan Clarke: Probably financially planning PS presents. [01:31:20] I could have probably lost less money on it. That would be one thing. I could have planned that better. I could have [01:31:25] maybe had a longer lead in time or had sponsorship nailed down more rather than going on the risk of [01:31:30] it. So this year I’ve tried. We’ve tried very much. We’ve really mitigated that and to to be [01:31:35] organised and just not to be doing things on the back foot mistakes. Maybe [01:31:40] being too trusting [01:31:45] of people, I think I think I, I think I’ve been burnt by thinking people were approaching [01:31:50] it with my eyes, even with like staff close to me. And then they’ll say, someone will make a [01:31:55] comment and they’ll be like, well, they’re sure everything’s transactional anyway, or it’s only about money. And then you [01:32:00] realise like, oh, and I don’t want that to sound like I’m trying to [01:32:05] sound better than I am there. It’s maybe just like a naivete that I had in terms of like someone [01:32:10] is approaching a relationship more transactional than I am. And actually it’s it was foolish [01:32:15] of me not to think of like, well, you need to deliver X for Y, and that’s it. You [01:32:20] know, clinically, like lots of mistakes, difficult patient.

Payman Langroudi: How about [01:32:25] that.

Alan Clarke: Difficult patients giving them, you know, perforating [01:32:30] a ando and bleach burns and all sorts like. Yeah there’s of course there’s [01:32:35] been lots of things and. I think we all have [01:32:40] them. I think I think it’s important to look at your mistakes, like composite bonding that hasn’t went so well or something [01:32:45] that I bring them back in and I’m not happy with the margins or like, their gums are getting inflamed. [01:32:50] I’m like, flip. I thought that was okay at the time and all of that. And I think we all make [01:32:55] mistakes. I always like to say to people, if people aren’t willing to be vulnerable and show that, then they’re [01:33:00] not probably someone you should listen to. So yeah, loads of mistakes clinically, loads of mistakes in business, lots [01:33:05] of mistakes as to how I’ve run the practice, lots of mistakes as to how I’ve interacted with my team all [01:33:10] the time. But hopefully I do it less.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:33:15] yeah, don’t worry, you’ll continue to make mistakes.

Alan Clarke: But I think. But we do for [01:33:20] sure. Yeah, definitely. I hope I just hope that I hope that I learn from them [01:33:25] and and I’ll do it differently the next time the sort of the same situation comes in. [01:33:30] And yeah, I think that’s all you can try.

Payman Langroudi: And you said you’ve got faith. Like, where does faith [01:33:35] sit? Do you have a feeling that someone’s looking out for you? Or do [01:33:40] you.

Alan Clarke: Pray.

Payman Langroudi: Pray to for things to happen or what? What would [01:33:45] happen?

Alan Clarke: No, I’m like a Christian, and that’s important to me. Um, and I [01:33:50] just think that, you know, things can get things [01:33:55] can get muddied in the water in society right now in terms of people can go super fundamentalist [01:34:00] and lots of different ways, good, bad on all sides of [01:34:05] the coin and all religions. And I think it’s like we have to always pull it back to the [01:34:10] fundamentals of, how do I want to treat someone that’s in front of me? How [01:34:15] do I want them to treat me? How can I show compassion and love to someone? Because at the end of the day, those [01:34:20] are the most important things, is like it’s being open minded, is [01:34:25] realising that, like, we’re all, you know, capable of tremendous [01:34:30] compassion and all capable of tremendous hurt to, you know, we can inflict [01:34:35] terrible pain on someone and we can give someone tremendous compassion. And [01:34:40] I think it’s just hopefully in our lives, like even in our profession, if we can make our [01:34:45] profession more compassionate, if we can get people to be more open minded and to be more inclusive [01:34:50] as to how they approach others. If we can do it in a global sense, if [01:34:55] we can do it in the UK, if we can leave our industry in a better way than we entered it, surely [01:35:00] that’s a surely that would be something to be proud of.

Payman Langroudi: For [01:35:05] sure.

Alan Clarke: You know.

Payman Langroudi: But do you think the basis [01:35:10] of that is your faith?

Alan Clarke: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Major driver for sure. [01:35:15]

Payman Langroudi: You do a lot of writing on AI and all [01:35:20] that. I mean, the thing with AI, I find, is what I thought [01:35:25] three weeks ago has changed today. Like, things are moving so ridiculously [01:35:30] fast. Cool. Yeah, but cooling, like.

Alan Clarke: It’s creepy.

Payman Langroudi: Not. [01:35:35] I’m not really. I’m not really worried so much that the robots are going to take me. [01:35:40] I’m worried about the guy with the biggest robot. Is is is the one who’s going to win, [01:35:45] right. And and it’s like, I don’t know if if there is [01:35:50] I that’s 10,000 times as intelligent as all humans put together. Whoever’s [01:35:55] got that is going to they’re.

Alan Clarke: Going to.

Payman Langroudi: Exploit [01:36:00] everything, right? I just feel like we’re going to be paying. We’re going to be paying [01:36:05] as consumers. I almost think like we’re not going to be the consumers. The robots are going to be consumers, but [01:36:10] every household is going to be paying thousands of pounds a month to get [01:36:15] protection from a central AI, because a stronger AI can [01:36:20] exploit anyone you know or something like that. You know, like it might. I see the opportunity? Don’t get [01:36:25] me wrong.

Alan Clarke: Um, that’s where the ethics of it all comes in, isn’t it? Like, as in, how responsibly [01:36:30] is it used? Or how do we how responsibly? Is it used and then how do we protect [01:36:35] ourselves against it or like nurture it in a way like it’s who teaches the algorithm to work and [01:36:40] who knows what’s going to happen in the world in the next period of time. But I think the only thing [01:36:45] is like. It’s I think it’s a super exciting time. [01:36:50] I think it’s like a super revolutionary time in business. I think ultimately, [01:36:55] human interaction is like the most important facet of lived experience is [01:37:00] to how we interact with each other. So that’s always going to stay universal. And if we look back in the [01:37:05] 20s, the 40s, we look back 3 or 400 years. There have been crises, there [01:37:10] have been triumphs. There have been all sorts of things thrown at humanity that they rise [01:37:15] and fall from and regroup and all of that. Who knows if AI is going to be one of those? [01:37:20] It may be. It may not. Um, but I think fundamentally how you interact [01:37:25] with someone else is like how we live not to be like to like. [01:37:30] But do you know what I mean? Like those things are a bit universal. Like you’re still gonna. You’re not gonna, you know, like [01:37:35] a computer can’t replace another. The interaction you have with a person as you look into their eyes or, you [01:37:40] know, the sense of something.

Payman Langroudi: That I don’t know about, you know, in the same.

Alan Clarke: Way as you.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe [01:37:45] you know how the algorithm knows you better than you know yourself. Sometimes when you’re flicking through [01:37:50] the discover page or whatever.

Alan Clarke: Yeah. It’ll start learning. It will. It does learn.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:37:55] mean, look, let’s say away from Neuralink stuff, let’s just be very, like, basic. [01:38:00] You could fall in love with a robot. Yeah. Because if she looks the way that [01:38:05] you want her to look. But then if she knows you so well. Yeah, better than you know yourself. [01:38:10]

Alan Clarke: Then she can trigger your triggers and know your drivers and. Yeah, yeah, [01:38:15] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And love seems like such a Payman.

Alan Clarke: Maybe you’re in the wrong industry.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe this is.

Alan Clarke: Maybe you’ve [01:38:20] just created. Maybe you’ve just created a spin off.

Payman Langroudi: But you know what I mean. Like, love seems like [01:38:25] such a holy thing. Such a beautiful thing. Such a human thing. I mean, there’s been movies [01:38:30] on this and people falling in love with robots. Yeah. I wouldn’t be surprised if my kid’s [01:38:35] kid marries a robot. You know. [01:38:40]

Alan Clarke: It just depends on the battery life.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly. But [01:38:45] you know, Pearl, which, you know, looking [01:38:50] at x rays with I, it kind of seems obvious, but I just project 3 or 4 years down the line in dentistry, [01:38:55] all treatment planning must be done by computer. [01:39:00] Like, why would you need a dentist?

Alan Clarke: Really? I think [01:39:05] I think there’s a lot of things that can be. Offshored [01:39:10] outsourced, used by computers. There’s definitely ways to make dentistry way more efficient. [01:39:15] I think that human interaction, as I talked about, is always going to be universal for people. But can these [01:39:20] technologies get really, really slick and really great? Yeah, absolutely. Is it going to revolutionise the way that we [01:39:25] practice and work? Most definitely. What’s the treatment plan going to look like? You know, um, [01:39:30] the team at Chairside are doing a lot to revolutionise what treatment [01:39:35] planning looks like, as are lots of other companies you know, Pearl have made like huge, [01:39:40] you know, huge advances in the US and uh, and here now to, um, [01:39:45] I think it’s like the only thing I would say in technology is it’s ever going to change. And [01:39:50] I would encourage practice owners and young dentists to not be scared of it and to like, be early adopters [01:39:55] to change. Like, I transcribe my notes, I don’t I don’t really type my notes much anymore. [01:40:00] I transcribe them, I use I, I check them. That’s how I do a lot of work. [01:40:05] And that’s something that’s changed my workflow significantly. You know.

Payman Langroudi: There’s that [01:40:10] thing about Will I take my job, know someone who knows how to use I will take your job. Yeah. [01:40:15]

Alan Clarke: Like it’s the thing. Yeah. It’s the thing of like, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a command input or [01:40:20] there’s a, there’s a term for it. But the person that knows how to command prompt the engineer to get a prompt engineer. That’s [01:40:25] it. Exactly. Yeah. That that person will take your job for sure. But just [01:40:30] don’t fear technology. Like embrace it. Use it to your advantage. Use it to your skill set. [01:40:35] Like I think I can you know, they they also say I will create businesses like [01:40:40] in a way that we could never dream or scale. So how [01:40:45] do you how do you bring that into your company? How do you I bring that into what I do? You know, there’s so many [01:40:50] ways of using it that we’ve just scratched the surface with it, even in dentistry. [01:40:55] And dentistry is so slow to adopt. You know, I find it so interesting in the US, Pearl will be asked [01:41:00] for in practices like people will ring a practice. Do you use Pearl? And that’s the consumer knowledge coming [01:41:05] first to the dentist. And even if the dental practice doesn’t know about it, then the dental [01:41:10] practice are thinking, flip, maybe I’m losing business if I’m not using this. And that’s because there’s consumer [01:41:15] awareness. So I think for a lot of products.

Payman Langroudi: I mean we certainly push we do we do consumer facing stuff [01:41:20] in order that patients go to their dentist.

Alan Clarke: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think that’s so [01:41:25] like it’s so interesting. If we look at that shift I don’t think the UK’s there yet [01:41:30] on that for I but lots of other products. But I think it will come. But [01:41:35] as I say, I think the UK is slow to adopt. Like you know, you [01:41:40] can just see some of the other markets moving faster, which does frustrate me about here, I have to say. [01:41:45] But then also it’s like if something I’ve seen is a good idea, usually it’s probably [01:41:50] it could be about two years before suddenly other people are picking up on it. And then the worry [01:41:55] for me is that I’ll have moved on to something else and I’ll have, like, flitted away and I’ll be [01:42:00] bored by it. And that’s important, because I actually need to realise that there’s still room for the market [01:42:05] to move for a period longer.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Alan Clarke: You know.

Payman Langroudi: You seem like the kind [01:42:10] of guy who gets bored quickly. It’s a it’s a massive advantage and a massive disadvantage in [01:42:15] one. You know, it’s like one of those things.

Alan Clarke: It’s like it’s been boredom, isn’t it? It’s like I think boredom plus [01:42:20] strategy is important. I think it’s like to, to realise that it [01:42:25] could be a weakness and you need to think of like, well then who’s going to grow this and scale this in a way, because there’s [01:42:30] still room for that to move. Yeah. For sure. I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve [01:42:35] come we’ve kind of come to the end of our time, which is a shame. I could keep talking for ages. Um, [01:42:40] but we normally end it with the same questions. Um. Fantasy [01:42:45] dinner party. Three guests.

Alan Clarke: I need to remember this, guys. I need to [01:42:50] remember this guy’s name.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, who would you have?

Alan Clarke: Diane Keaton. Oh, [01:42:55] yeah. The movie star from the 90s.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah. Why her?

Alan Clarke: Because [01:43:00] she speaks into this, like the Nancy Meyers esque. Childhood, [01:43:05] Alan. Growing up viewpoint of America that’s whimsical [01:43:10] and sort of magical and and and I think [01:43:15] that has probably been like, that’s formational. And definitely the way I view [01:43:20] America is probably been through movies and my interaction with it as a kid. [01:43:25] And it was like The Promised Land. It was like, everything’s happy there. And there’s this sort of like a there’s a little nostalgic [01:43:30] hit. So the queen of that, Diane Keaton.

Payman Langroudi: Was it the first time you’d been to the US when you went? [01:43:35] Oh, no. You went with your dad before?

Alan Clarke: Yeah, yeah. No, no, I’ve been as a kid. Um, and yeah, [01:43:40] a few I’d been a number of times, but, um. Yeah. And it was just that nostalgic [01:43:45] hits important. The other person I wanted to write down, actually the name of because you’d asked me this was [01:43:50] Terence Riley.

Payman Langroudi: Who’s that?

Alan Clarke: And I didn’t want to get his name wrong. Um, he is [01:43:55] the marketing director that made, um, Crocs cool.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:44:00] yeah.

Alan Clarke: And then now he works for Stanley Cups.

Payman Langroudi: Stanley cups.

Alan Clarke: So he [01:44:05] made Stanley Cups. Cool. So if you look at his reputation in marketing as to everything he’s touched, [01:44:10] he’s been able to create community. He’s been able to create like a product that disrupts the market, like [01:44:15] so significant. And and then probably number three, I’d put [01:44:20] someone in like Nelson Mandela or someone like very like values driven [01:44:25] for the balance in terms of for me to learn from them, how to [01:44:30] take it more slowly and how to like, think of the long games rather than being, [01:44:35] you know, thinking of doing 100 things. I want someone that can teach me patience. [01:44:40]

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting you say my my favourite marketing [01:44:45] company is Red bull.

Alan Clarke: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I don’t even like the product, but. But [01:44:50] the marketing is just so amazing. And.

Alan Clarke: But then how they pivoted into completely different industries like [01:44:55] capitalise that and then that brands like associated with extreme sports and like yeah, [01:45:00] it’s cool, it’s cool. I just think that guy, everything he touches turns to gold. Yeah. Like he literally [01:45:05] can create community about the most. Like if you, you know, if you give him a product to sell [01:45:10] it, he could create like a whole global industry disruption around that [01:45:15] product. And I’m like someone who has the skill set and strategy to do that is someone I want to learn from. [01:45:20]

Payman Langroudi: Did you hear about things like bacon and eggs? Was [01:45:25] a marketing man who was working for the pork industry.

Alan Clarke: Oh, really? [01:45:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. There was no bacon and eggs for breakfast until this ad guy said, let’s [01:45:35] push bacon as a breakfast thing. You know, it’s just I just think.

Alan Clarke: It’s like whenever you start [01:45:40] to pick, whenever you start to pick apart, like, honestly, whenever I look back to my [01:45:45] GCSEs. Right. One of the kind of the subjects that I did that probably didn’t give a lot of consideration [01:45:50] to was media studies. Whenever I think of the skills that I’ve pulled forward, like [01:45:55] media studies is something that I use, like every single day and like looking at marketing [01:46:00] and branding and starting to think of like, well, if we do an ad campaign for something, why is that word where [01:46:05] it is? Why is it written like that? What’s the copy text here? Why have we overlaid? That? Is our brand name strong enough that we can [01:46:10] cover half of it with an image? You know, there’s all those things that you pick into. And. And I just love that [01:46:15] element of, like, the creativity. Yeah. I just like art and creativity.

Payman Langroudi: I love I love analysing in [01:46:20] myself. Why is it I want to buy this thing?

Alan Clarke: Why are you like? Uh. [01:46:25] Are you an emotional purchaser? Like, if you like the sales assistant, you don’t care about the product. You’re like, [01:46:30] oh, they were so nice to me. I want to buy it.

Payman Langroudi: No, but. Well, yes, yes, I like I like.

Alan Clarke: Have really good service. [01:46:35]

Payman Langroudi: I’m talking about brand. I’m talking about brand. I mean, like, if it’s, let’s say it’s a t shirt and it says [01:46:40] Armani on the label, and there’s another one that says whatever on [01:46:45] the label. Why do I want the Armani one more than I want the other one? You know why? What’s what’s going through [01:46:50] my head? Why? What’s happening to me? Yeah. What have they done to me to make me feel that way? I remember [01:46:55] Virgin, I was determined when I went on, um, elective. I was determined to fly [01:47:00] to the US on Virgin and.

Alan Clarke: No other airline.

Payman Langroudi: No other airline. And we decided we were students [01:47:05] here. But we decided we’re going virgin. And when I when I said it was fun and there was red and [01:47:10] all that, but but I remember sitting in the plane thinking, what did that guy do to me? Like like [01:47:15] like Branson, he did something.

Alan Clarke: He created a.

Payman Langroudi: Lifestyle. Make me want it. Yeah.

Alan Clarke: Lifestyle brand. That’s [01:47:20] just.

Payman Langroudi: Fascinating.

Alan Clarke: It’s incredible. I love Ben Gorham as well. Who created [01:47:25] Byredo the scent House. Great entrepreneur. So interesting. The way he he created [01:47:30] again, a luxury he created like a luxury brand that will sit in rival any [01:47:35] Bond Street store. Created it disruptively from Stockholm. Influenced by basketball [01:47:40] art. He’s covered in tattoos. Really different entrepreneur, but very stylish and creative. [01:47:45] Like, you know people like that like are so inspiring. And those are the people [01:47:50] that you want to have a room of. And I think for Pierce Presents and Dentistry, I was like, how do we [01:47:55] get a room of people that are really cool that you want to really learn from? And whenever you see these dentists that [01:48:00] have, like, hit the top of their professions in lots of different ways, you’re like, how did you do it? I want to learn, you [01:48:05] know.

Payman Langroudi: The one thing you need to be careful of and I need to we’ve got this problem all the time. People a lot of people [01:48:10] think enlighten is only a brand. Yeah. And and you know, [01:48:15] when if you’re brand centric. Yeah. People think enlightened is packaging. It’s not like, you know.

Alan Clarke: And [01:48:20] then then lose the sense of the product.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And, you know, if people think that what you are is [01:48:25] style over substance.

Alan Clarke: It’s dangerous.

Payman Langroudi: It’s dangerous.

Alan Clarke: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: And some people [01:48:30] like to make snap judgements. You know, like that style, that substance, that style, that substance, you know. You [01:48:35] know, there’s Apple or whatever. It’s sort of style and substance. You can have both. Yeah. Yeah. [01:48:40] It’s possible. Yeah. Um, let’s let’s end it on the final. Final question. It’s the deathbed question. [01:48:45] Um, on your deathbed, surrounded by loved ones. Three [01:48:50] pieces of advice.

Alan Clarke: To give to my loved ones.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Alan Clarke: Um. [01:48:55] Oh, I think I’m going to sound very generic. [01:49:00] Like to follow their dreams. To be open minded, to show love [01:49:05] and to. To think [01:49:10] outside the box. And to think that sometimes the opportunities that are coming their way [01:49:15] are going to come from the most unexpected places and just to be open to it at that moment.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. [01:49:20] I really enjoyed the conversation.

Alan Clarke: Thank you so.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:49:25] so so so easy. We’re gonna keep going like an easy drinking wine. [01:49:30]

Alan Clarke: Thank you for having me. It’s been a pleasure.

[VOICE]: This [01:49:35] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one [01:49:40] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:49:45] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:49:50] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And [01:49:55] just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to [01:50:00] say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If [01:50:05] you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share [01:50:10] this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks. [01:50:15]

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast has been brought to you by Mini Smile Makeover. Mini Smile Makeover is a two day anterior [00:00:05] composite course led by the extraordinary talented doctor Dipesh Palmer. Two [00:00:10] days of full on, hands on composite training, purely focussed on [00:00:15] anterior work composite veneers, polishing, finishing, shade matching. You also [00:00:20] get a free enlightened kit. Plus we have a great time and a party in the middle. Find out the dates. [00:00:25] Mini smile makeover.com. Now let’s get back to the podcast.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. [00:00:35] The podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:00:40] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome Richard Lee onto the podcast. Richard, [00:00:55] one of the top restorative aesthetic dentists in the country. Certainly [00:01:00] one of my big influences when, when when we started doing composite I [00:01:05] that time, I think Sanjay Sethi had done some stuff that [00:01:10] I was impressed by. The internet wasn’t really there, so it wasn’t like you could watch [00:01:15] lots of stuff by lots of people. And I remember seeing some of your work back then. I’m actually [00:01:20] approaching you. And I think at that time you were very with up to Dental. Yes. And so there was none of that. [00:01:25] But but I was always a massive fan of your work. And to this day, I really [00:01:30] real pleasure having you. Thanks. Real pleasure having you. Yeah.

Richard Lee: Nice to be here. Yeah. Really nice to be here. [00:01:35]

Payman Langroudi: We’d like to start these with backstories. Um, but I [00:01:40] do sometimes have, like, a burning question that I want to sort of put straight [00:01:45] out so that I don’t have to worry about that question anymore with you. It [00:01:50] does go around this sort of idea of excellence. Like when [00:01:55] did that? At what point did you think excellence is where I’m going? It’s almost like product positioning. [00:02:00] Yeah. Our product could be the cheapest, the prettiest, the best. But we [00:02:05] positioned it as excellence. Yeah, yeah.

Richard Lee: I’m not sure there’s ever was ever [00:02:10] a conscious decision to be for that. And I think it’s it’s it’s a process. So even [00:02:15] now you’re chasing something. Uh, my lab unica, their strap [00:02:20] line is like the endless pursuit of excellence. And it is. And it’s a pursuit. It’s not something you ever attain. [00:02:25] So I think it’s always there’s that wanting to be to be better and better. Um, in terms [00:02:30] of sort of kind of beautiful dentistry or that sort of thing. I remember [00:02:35] my first exposure to that was I was really quite [00:02:40] newly qualified, and I saw, um, an optician brochure, I think, or an [00:02:45] ultra brochure or something. One of those, you know. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Brochures, but beautiful brochure and.

Richard Lee: Yeah. [00:02:50] And just the photography and the and it’s black backgrounds. And [00:02:55] this was again, this is like back in, you know, 25 years ago, 26 years ago. So I hadn’t seen [00:03:00] anything like that before. So that was sort of mind blowing stuff. Um, but I think it’s you’re just striving [00:03:05] to be better and better and better and better because, I mean, [00:03:10] it can be problematic sometimes because you’re looking at your work and you only see the flaws. [00:03:15] And that’s always the way and that’s the way it should be in terms of if you want to improve. Yeah. Um, but you need [00:03:20] to be a bit careful with that because that can lead you down a path of sort of slight obsession. And, [00:03:25] you know, you need to sort of take a bit of a step back sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: And a lot of, a lot of the top guys [00:03:30] are kind of on the spectrum a little bit.

Richard Lee: I think. So I mean.

Payman Langroudi: It takes that to be, you know.

Richard Lee: Yeah. [00:03:35] Matty Parsons was laughing at me about being being something like that. I think maybe I, I think, yeah, you’ve got this [00:03:40] compulsion to. It’s the photography that drives you and pushes you, I think, because [00:03:45] that’s the only way that I see you. Because when you’re looking at a tooth and it’s only 11mm high, you sort [00:03:50] of see it, but you don’t see all the detail when you start photographing stuff and making it very big. And that’s when you [00:03:55] really start getting, um, really zooming in on the smallest detail. But it’s not the smallest [00:04:00] detail to you because you’ve refined it more and more and more and more and more over the years, and then you’re [00:04:05] only left with these small things, and those are the things that you’re chasing. And it’s sort of a diminishing returns, [00:04:10] almost in a way, because you’re striving for these tiny, tiny gains that other people might not see. But they’re really important [00:04:15] to you because that’s how you feel that you’re progressing and getting better, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But it’s not [00:04:20] only it’s not only about sort of, uh, flower arranging. Um, [00:04:25] the, you know, the bacteria are small things. Yeah. Stain molecules [00:04:30] are small things. Yeah, yeah. So you want this thing to work? You do. You have to work on that macro level. [00:04:35] Yes.

Richard Lee: Yes. There there are so many different. But yeah, there’s bits of it from the, from the small all the way down to [00:04:40] the, the very, very small, the small parts of it. Um, but yeah, I don’t think [00:04:45] it’s ever been a case of what have I tried to position myself? I’ve always wanted to do the [00:04:50] best work that I could. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: But always I’m saying, were you that 12 year old as well?

Richard Lee: Uh, no, actually, [00:04:55] that’s that’s.

Payman Langroudi: The inflection point.

Richard Lee: I’m looking so. Yeah. Good point. So through, um, [00:05:00] I mean, at school and to a degree university. I did enough [00:05:05] to get by.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Richard Lee: Me too. Um, I was infuriating. My parents, I think [00:05:10] by just parents evening would be. Yeah, he’s good, but he could be really good if he actually [00:05:15] applied himself because it was okay, and I could sort of drift a bit. And, you know, I didn’t see [00:05:20] the point in doing more than I needed to do to get right. And then even through university, we had [00:05:25] some. I went to Birmingham, we had some phenomenal lecturers and teachers like Ian Chappell, Prof. [00:05:30] Chappell, um, he was my head of firm like these, these phenomenal clinicians. Yeah. Um, [00:05:35] and I felt really lucky to have those. But even through that I enjoyed [00:05:40] it. But I wasn’t I was just sort of doing the course. I was at university, I was having fun. [00:05:45] It was, you know, just ticking the boxes kind of going through. I think where [00:05:50] it probably started to change for me was when I did Chris Christie’s course, like like everybody [00:05:55] says, I’m sure, um, because I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Know, it must be one of the earliest.

Richard Lee: Um, it’s [00:06:00] 2005, 2006, I think it was it was, yeah. They were doing it at the Q clinic at that point there, [00:06:05] you know. So yeah, it was Q clinic. Yeah, I know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a blast from the past.

Richard Lee: So [00:06:10] it it was it was one of the early ones and it was complete by happenstance and luck. I’d, [00:06:15] I’d taken a year off cos I’d been doing some NHS dentistry for a few years. Um, I’d stopped enjoying [00:06:20] myself, just things. It was fine, but it felt like a real trudge [00:06:25] and. And there was no. You’re talking about sort of how do you get better and excellence and quicker. [00:06:30] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you see 30 patients a day. You’re I mean, I think it’s great for some things and I, [00:06:35] you know, I’ve heard people say and I agree with it, that I think in terms of training and, um, being [00:06:40] able to get lots of experience, I think it’s a great way to do that, that you don’t get to do university, do [00:06:45] less and less, you know, tooth cutting at university. So to actually I worked in, um, [00:06:50] on the Holloway Road. Actually, that was my dad moved to London Holloway Road, and [00:06:55] I worked there for a few years in a very busy, predominantly exempt NHS [00:07:00] practice when it was fee per item. So you’re dealing with lots of people who don’t [00:07:05] really care whether they save their tooth or not. You know, it might be, you know, it’s like this back [00:07:10] tooth is really sore, you know, what do you want to do? These are the options. I don’t care what you know what. I want to save it, [00:07:15] you know? So I’ll give it a go. And and without the pressure of them having, you know, paying £2,000 [00:07:20] for it, you know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting, you know, because that aspect, the one that you’ve just pointed out is [00:07:25] something I’d never properly considered or I had. When I look back on my one year in the NHS, [00:07:30] there was this one case I applied for was a prior approval for [00:07:35] eight veneers, and she didn’t really care or anything. And it was [00:07:40] all on me. Yeah, that one benefit of NHS, I do understand, but [00:07:45] if it was three years spent in private?

Richard Lee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think [00:07:50] at the end of the three, if one Richard went and did this and the other Richard went to.

Richard Lee: Sliding doors, [00:07:55] isn’t it. I don’t, I don’t know. I think for me it was I think there’s a certain amount of flying hours that you [00:08:00] just need to get in terms of.

Payman Langroudi: And where do, where do the Australians and the Americans get [00:08:05] those flying hours? They don’t know. They don’t have NHS.

Richard Lee: This is true. This is true. I don’t know. Maybe without [00:08:10] that that that that pressure I mean, I had a very good practice as well. And that was, uh, makes.

Payman Langroudi: A big.

Richard Lee: Difference.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:08:15] does. Who was that? Who was the first boss?

Richard Lee: The first boss was one of my heads of fifth year at [00:08:20] university. So a guy called Clive Gibson. Oh. And he, uh, he offered me [00:08:25] a place, and, uh, that was in Wolverhampton, actually. And that [00:08:30] was. That was great. It was really good. Yeah, it was great, you know. Good. One day a week in Stafford [00:08:35] with all the group. A really nice way to learn. It was it was supportive. It was good. And [00:08:40] I felt I had a really good grounding at university. I came out not anxious or worried about treating [00:08:45] patients on my own. That, that was fine. The clinical side was fine. I struggled a bit with adapting [00:08:50] from university to and being in a room on my own all day. I found that quite hard. [00:08:55]

Payman Langroudi: I think everyone does. I think everyone, yeah.

Richard Lee: Do they? Because I don’t, because obviously a lot of my mates were medics. They went [00:09:00] off to hospital and they’re essentially still doing the same thing. They’re surrounded by loads of colleagues and people and [00:09:05] it’s very social. And it’s whereas I think you put a 23 year old into a room [00:09:10] all day with one other person who you might not have anything to do with. You’re 23 and there might be, you know, 55 [00:09:15] nurse. And, um, I think it can get a bit sort of, I.

Payman Langroudi: Think the, [00:09:20] the one after the year after that. I mean, because these TT you’ve got your group and your the [00:09:25] year after that even though your salary goes through the roof.

Richard Lee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The fact that now [00:09:30] you think is this it.

Richard Lee: Yeah I was, I was very lucky again I had a great [00:09:35] boss. So so the first one was good and then I had a great one, uh, guy called Bernie Taylor [00:09:40] and that was the Holloway. And he sort of took me under his wing and was like, I’d [00:09:45] never done a bridge before, and there’s loads of stuff I hadn’t done before. Um, and he just sort of [00:09:50] showed me what to do, basically. And that was that. Again, that was that was really, really good. Anyway, I did this for [00:09:55] a few years and I just yeah, it’s like I thought, am I going to do this for 40 years? I [00:10:00] certain things weren’t working. I didn’t know why. And I was starting to frustrate me. Um, I [00:10:05] knew what I was doing for the basics, but anything more complex than that, I didn’t know how to do some things. Anyway, [00:10:10] I decided that I’d had enough of this for a while, so I went off to, [00:10:15] um, work as a dive guide in the Red sea randomly. So I’d done sort of [00:10:20] three, four years in university in London. Um, worked really hard, felt a bit [00:10:25] burnt out. I hadn’t taken any holidays in that time at all. Just gone head down, bum up work, work, work. And [00:10:30] I got to the stage where I was like, I don’t, I don’t think I want to do this anymore. Well, I [00:10:35] don’t, I don’t want to do this right now. I just wanted a break.

Payman Langroudi: So did you feel like you were tactically doing something [00:10:40] correct, or were you like, no.

Richard Lee: I was running.

Payman Langroudi: Away, slightly desperate.

Richard Lee: I was running away.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, well, [00:10:45] that must be scary.

Richard Lee: Yeah, it was, but.

Payman Langroudi: But it was your only option.

Richard Lee: It felt like my only [00:10:50] option. And I think once I decided I was going to do it, the sense of relief that I was going to go and [00:10:55] get away from all of this and just thought, I just I just [00:11:00] don’t.

Payman Langroudi: What did friends and family girlfriend. These people think.

Richard Lee: It was weird because I just bought a flat. [00:11:05] I just got settled and, um, I was a bit worried about telling my [00:11:10] parents, actually. But they they were really cool with it. They they, I think they sort of said, are you going to come back to dentistry? And I said, [00:11:15] yeah, I think so. And they said, well, it’s fine, go and enjoy yourself. And I hadn’t taken a year out, so I’d gone straight from university, straight [00:11:20] from school into university.

Payman Langroudi: Were they that kind of parent generally. Were they.

Richard Lee: They were.

Payman Langroudi: Very [00:11:25] cool. Yeah. Supporting.

Richard Lee: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: They, they impose their.

Richard Lee: No no. [00:11:30]

Payman Langroudi: What do they do.

Richard Lee: Uh, dad um, was a, uh, building surveyor for the, um, [00:11:35] local town council. Um, mum worked in a in an office for a small software company, [00:11:40] so very sort of normal.

Payman Langroudi: Where did industry come from then?

Richard Lee: Yeah. Really randomly. So [00:11:45] I was doing I wanted to do something sciencey maybe sort of medically kind of thing, just [00:11:50] because I quite like the sciencey stuff. And then, I mean, you talk about sliding doors moments, you [00:11:55] know, how your life sort of changes. But Mum and Dad were out one evening with some friends of theirs for dinner, [00:12:00] and a friend of theirs is a dentist, um, dentist called Dave Thomas, who’s a dentist [00:12:05] in Wolverhampton, which is where I’m from. And my mum was [00:12:10] chatting to him and said, well, Richard, you know, he’s got to start applying for university. He doesn’t really know what he wants to what he wants to do. And he said, [00:12:15] oh, he should come and watch me for a day and see if he likes that. So literally next day mum said, [00:12:20] you know, would you like to go? And I went, yeah, okay. And I, and I went along [00:12:25] and, and I think I was.

Payman Langroudi: There.

Richard Lee: I was there for about four hours and I was like, yeah that seems fine.

Payman Langroudi: Do you remember thinking, [00:12:30] what was it about it that you dug? I mean, was it, was it the work, was it the the BMW [00:12:35] like, what was it?

Richard Lee: No, it’s funny because money never, ever came into it. It was, it was [00:12:40] a it seemed like I’m all the [00:12:45] things that people say, you know, you’re working for you. Yeah. Working for yourself. You’re working with your hands. You’re [00:12:50] you’re getting to help people. You’re getting to see people. It’s all kind of the very, sort of altruistic kind of things. I thought, yeah, that’s something [00:12:55] that looks interesting. I’m not stuck in a lab, which is I was thinking about doing biochemistry or something like that. So I’m not [00:13:00] stuck in a lab and patient. Patient facing, um, working with my hands. [00:13:05] That seems quite interesting. Um, I’d never had an experience. I’ve never had any author. I’ve [00:13:10] never had a filling. I’ve never had. I’ve never experienced it from the patient side, but it just seemed quite interesting [00:13:15] and I so I did the morning there. It was a funny morning. Anyway, I had a car crash on [00:13:20] the way there. A lorry had reversed into into the car and it was got there a bit shaken and, and [00:13:25] uh, yeah. So maybe, maybe that was it. Maybe I wasn’t in my right mind, but I did the four hours just [00:13:30] did the morning.

Payman Langroudi: And what was it, an NHS?

Richard Lee: Yeah NHS practice. He was a big trainer. He had like a [00:13:35] big a few practices and uh.

Payman Langroudi: Is it because, you know, [00:13:40] that was your work experience? Yeah, mine was in Harley Street in an orthodontist. Yeah. [00:13:45]

Richard Lee: It is funny. And it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Funny. Totally different. Me and you had a totally different day [00:13:50] that day. Yeah, yours was loads of people. Mine was very few humans. Yes. This guy used to [00:13:55] work without a nurse. Wow. Yeah. He was like the old school guy. Yeah.

Richard Lee: It is. But you just [00:14:00] see something that maybe just thinks that’s interesting. Yeah. And I think I was 16, maybe [00:14:05] 17. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: I wouldn’t know what you want.

Richard Lee: I don’t know what you want, and but it’s. But it seemed [00:14:10] interesting, and, uh, I didn’t come home, like, as though I’d, you know, sort of [00:14:15] this kind of Damascene kind of like. But I just I went. Yeah. And [00:14:20] parents say, what do you think? I said, yeah, I think I’ll apply to do that. And that was, that was I know some people and it’s [00:14:25] very different these days. I mean, goodness me, what people have to go through to get into university and to get on the course. [00:14:30] But, um, yeah, I remember listening to to to Lewis talking when he was saying [00:14:35] that Lewis McKenzie talked when he said it was a be in two season. It was a B2C. When I went to university as [00:14:40] well, um, you know, so it wasn’t a very popular course I don’t think. Um, so [00:14:45] yeah, I applied I applied to to them and got in and went and and that was and that was it. [00:14:50] So it wasn’t like I’d sort of had this burning ambition to be a dentist or like, I didn’t really know anything about [00:14:55] it. I remember that they gave us, um, the first essay to write something about the cause of caries. [00:15:00] I didn’t know what caries was. Genuinely, I had to ask somebody else because there wasn’t really any internet as well. It was [00:15:05] like 1994. You couldn’t really. And I said, what’s what’s.

Payman Langroudi: Different these days? When I was it’s.

Richard Lee: Tooth. [00:15:10]

Payman Langroudi: Decay when I was with those PDSA people. And they are so driven and know [00:15:15] so much. It’s a very.

Richard Lee: Different cohort that are going in now than the people. And I think, [00:15:20] you know, that’s good in some ways I think you might lose something as well with the balance of that, you know. Um, [00:15:25] but I knew nothing. And then I remember, I think in freshers they showed us a video [00:15:30] of a tooth extraction. I was like, oh, that looks a bit grim. But, um.

Payman Langroudi: When you look back on [00:15:35] Birmingham, do you look back on those as like best days of your life?

Richard Lee: I loved university, [00:15:40] genuinely.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve still got friends from there and yeah, yeah.

Richard Lee: Yeah, my, my, the [00:15:45] first person I met at university in the room next door in halls is a medic, um, called [00:15:50] sham, and I saw him last week. He’s a, he’s a, he’s a consultant anaesthetist at the Marsden. [00:15:55] And, um, I adored university. We just had the best time, [00:16:00] and I didn’t. I wasn’t a big dentistry person. I didn’t hang out with dentists very much. Um, [00:16:05] our halls of residence were. We were a bit away. And so we got quite a tight [00:16:10] group from that. And then that sort of carried on through. So friends were medics and varying different [00:16:15] things, different, um, subjects, but not really many dentists. And [00:16:20] we just had loads of fun. It just we got through the course, found that, [00:16:25] as I say, I enjoyed it, but I wasn’t particularly striving to, to, to to get anywhere with it. I didn’t [00:16:30] care where I came in in the class particularly.

Payman Langroudi: Um, you know, Rona puts much of her success [00:16:35] down to that fact, which was that she wasn’t hanging with the dentists. She [00:16:40] said she wasn’t doing it on purpose. No. Yeah. But, um, once she [00:16:45] finished number one, all her friends. Yeah. You said your buddies become consultants at [00:16:50] the Marsden. Yeah, yeah. When you get to a certain age, these people suddenly become establishment figures. [00:16:55] And all of her establishment figures were in all walks of life who then became [00:17:00] patients and so on. You know her influence? Yes. Knowing Chelsea. Yeah. [00:17:05] Of course. Number one. But number two, not following the normal [00:17:10] path that we’re kind of fed is the normal path. You know, and [00:17:15] it’s so interesting, you know, when you ask for advice, these youngsters are always asking for advice now. Right. [00:17:20] But youngster comes to you and asks for advice or comes to me and asks for advice. [00:17:25] There has to be a discounting for the do what I did. Yeah. [00:17:30] Angle. Go here and there’s no reason like, you know, you’re going to say to the youngster, I [00:17:35] don’t know, maybe you’re more nuanced than this, but you’re going to say to the youngster, two, three years on the NHS, [00:17:40] get your miles in, because that’s what you did. And I didn’t do. I did, then moved [00:17:45] straight to private. And I’m going to say, why not go straight to private? I mean, we’ll have to discount. Yeah. The person [00:17:50] asking the question has to discount.

Richard Lee: We all carry bias.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, we.

Richard Lee: All carry bias, and we dispense that because [00:17:55] the way we got where we were at by doing the thing that we did, and you can’t work out what was the good thing and the bad thing, you know. [00:18:00] So it is it is difficult. Um, you know, if again, I, I hope [00:18:05] my children work harder than me at university. I mean, I, I think I did what I needed, and I, and [00:18:10] I, and I passed and I, I did all right. You know, I got honours, survivors and certain things, but it wasn’t. [00:18:15] Yeah, I wasn’t driven by by the academia. [00:18:20] I wasn’t driven about being the best. I just the work was fine. Once I figured out it took me about [00:18:25] a year to kind of work out how university worked with the exams and all that sort of stuff.

Payman Langroudi: I think as a learner, I [00:18:30] mean, you’re very good at what you do, right? As a learner, do you think you’re sort [00:18:35] of strong, sort of instinctively like you or, you know, like some people say they just [00:18:40] work hard and you’re kind of making out here that, you know, that you weren’t working that hard, but you were getting extraordinary [00:18:45] results in some areas. Yeah.

Richard Lee: No, I didn’t work that hard.

Payman Langroudi: Things come to you quite easily. [00:18:50]

Richard Lee: Um, certainly. I find so [00:18:55] dry academic stuff. Not so much. You know, I’d struggle with biochemistry [00:19:00] and that sort of stuff. Um, I remember hating, you know, [00:19:05] some of some of those subjects found them really, really hard. Um, when it comes to more practical [00:19:10] things that I can visualise, I’m quite a visual learner. In fact, one of the I remember one of the, [00:19:15] one of those aha moments was when, uh, I was in my practice and I was in my boss’s [00:19:20] room, and I opened his bottom drawer with all his lab work, and I just started looking at the, the [00:19:25] models that all the work had come back and looking at the preps and that. And I learned more in half an hour, almost [00:19:30] like, oh, right. That’s what a three quarter crown looks like, right? That’s what an inverse bevel is, right. That’s a lot. [00:19:35] And actually physically seeing it and then taking the restoration off and putting it on and going right I get it now. [00:19:40] Whereas I think sometimes in a book it’s a bit, you know, sort of abstract. So visually I [00:19:45] learn I learn quite well. Um, but I didn’t start getting [00:19:50] really into it until. And so going back to the thing I was saying earlier was, was when I went on Chris Orr’s course, um, [00:19:55] that that lit a fire under me, really, in terms of my passion [00:20:00] and the potential, what I saw of like how exciting it could be [00:20:05] and how new it was. And just to answer all these questions that I’d had about why things didn’t [00:20:10] work or how things could work better, you know, the solutions to the problems that I was seeing and that [00:20:15] that I find that and that put me on a two year journey of, um, [00:20:20] going to do lots of different courses. So I went to there wasn’t a good occlusion course in the UK at [00:20:25] that time. I didn’t feel that there was, um. So then I was on Dental town. Remember that?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Richard Lee: Yeah. [00:20:30] Yeah, yeah. So I was looking at Dental and trying to work out what to do, so I went and did, um, Dawson, [00:20:35] uh, for 2 or 3 years, backwards and forwards to Florida. [00:20:40] Yeah. Went through the whole sort of continuum. And that was a real kind [00:20:45] of amazing moment of feeling like I kind of got it. Like at the time, I [00:20:50] remember thinking it was a bit like The Matrix, where suddenly you see beyond everything. You felt as though I understood [00:20:55] so much. I could see why things almost straight away were failing or didn’t work, or what the what, [00:21:00] what needed to happen. That course really kind of blew my mind.

Payman Langroudi: So, you know, if [00:21:05] you were going to be like a straw man of that of, [00:21:10] of those courses, like if you’re going to critique those courses and I know you can’t [00:21:15] say Dawson is the same as Speer is the same as. No, they’re not very different.

Richard Lee: They are very.

Payman Langroudi: Very different animals. Yeah. [00:21:20] But one of the things that European dentists seem to complain of is like those sort of courses [00:21:25] tend to put out dentists or overtreat, I think.

Richard Lee: I don’t disagree [00:21:30] with that.

Payman Langroudi: Intervene kind of earlier than we would.

Richard Lee: It can be quite dogmatic, I think. I think particularly [00:21:35] historically, and I think before Dawson came to the UK and they sort of had their [00:21:40] spin on it, I think it was very prescriptive, like this is and even they would say way back in the day, [00:21:45] they’d be restoring everybody to try and get this occlusion on every single tooth and everything. You know, [00:21:50] every tooth got restored, whether it was worn or not. Try and give this perfect ideal occlusion. But [00:21:55] what I could do was I could see what I saw even then, with [00:22:00] the drawbacks of it, like, I don’t I think that’s really destructive dentistry. It was very traditional dentistry, very traditional [00:22:05] Crown prep and that sort of thing. And at the same time, I was doing a lot of the manor [00:22:10] stuff, and I could see and Didier and I could see the conservative [00:22:15] side, and I felt I could meld the two together. So you could have this, you know, [00:22:20] occlusal based philosophy, but in a minimally invasive way.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I was going to say [00:22:25] it doesn’t it doesn’t tally very closely to what you ended up as kind of a very minimally invasive. [00:22:30]

Richard Lee: But it but it was it gave me the background and the knowledge that I didn’t have to necessarily [00:22:35] use their recipe, but I but I knew what what was, what was going on.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s kind of it makes me [00:22:40] think of like, it’s kind of like you reckon Picasso could have drawn like a photorealistic [00:22:45] picture, but he chose not to. Yeah. You [00:22:50] know, learning about something and deciding your your view, I think.

Richard Lee: Yeah, absolutely. You [00:22:55] you understand what it is? Yeah. Um. And then it’s what, how you feel, whether it’s philosophically [00:23:00] or whatever you want, you know. No, I’m not going to draw down all these teeth because I don’t think that’s that’s what’s required because [00:23:05] we have. And I think the Americans would say as well, they were probably a bit behind the curve on, [00:23:10] you know, minimally invasive stuff. So, um, I was I remember [00:23:15] going to when he first launched his, um, immediate denting ceiling and all that and, [00:23:20] and doing Chris’s stuff with, you know, the the I hadn’t really done on [00:23:25] layers and that kind of thing in terms of sort of minimally invasive porcelain restorations and suddenly [00:23:30] kind of all going, right, I can put these two together and now I can, you know, be really do all the stuff they’re [00:23:35] saying, but I, but I don’t, I don’t need to cut this down. And that felt a lot better to me. I didn’t feel like I wanted to, to, to [00:23:40] cut teeth down to, to give them this ideal bite because we know that’s not, you know, not [00:23:45] always the answer either. And also, you know, there’s all these different philosophies that it’s not it’s not one size fits all for everybody. [00:23:50] It’s not like, oh, Dawson can fit everybody and or fix everybody. Um, I had friends [00:23:55] who were doing LVI, you know, and and, you know, and that’s a very different thing. And they’re getting [00:24:00] to their mind. They’re getting great results as well. So, you know, it’s it’s yeah, it needs to be a little bit careful. [00:24:05]

Payman Langroudi: So your influences with all these people. Right. Did she ask how [00:24:10] many can you think of a moment or a realisation clinically [00:24:15] that you felt was an aha.

Richard Lee: Um, Actually [00:24:20] clinically, as in the patient in the chair or.

Payman Langroudi: Just like some some aspect of it. I think of it like [00:24:25] I did very little dentistry, so I don’t want much to draw on. But um, I did [00:24:30] a lot of veneers. Yeah. When Rosenthal and all that, that whole thing, that whole moment [00:24:35] and the when when you could see the failure in the interproximal, the staining. [00:24:40] Yeah. And seeing failures is, is [00:24:45] a is a real aha moment.

Richard Lee: Yes it is. It’s as long as you’re open minded enough. [00:24:50] Yeah I think that’s the thing because you can see failure sometimes it’s almost like oh okay. There’s something, something else [00:24:55] is to blame. It was a technician. It’s the patient. It’s whatever. But if you can be open [00:25:00] minded enough to go, that’s failed and not to feel embarrassed [00:25:05] about it, because sometimes the failure is is ten, 15 years down the line and things do fail. But like, why is it failing [00:25:10] now? Is it? Yeah. Like, for example, I don’t know you. I had one [00:25:15] the other day and it was, uh, it was an inlay from, from quite a few years ago, but it had fractured and I [00:25:20] looked at it. It’s like there wasn’t really enough occlusal reduction. You know, you’re trying to be really minimal. You’re trying [00:25:25] to not not do too much. And you think, yeah, I should have just cut some more off the tooth and the ceramic should have been thicker. And [00:25:30] that, that might have been what’s, what’s what’s doing it. But um.

Payman Langroudi: So moments like [00:25:35] that.

Richard Lee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what other moments like that.

Richard Lee: Um. [00:25:40] I [00:25:45] think it’s, I think [00:25:50] it’s when it comes to things like, because it gives me the solutions to fix problems [00:25:55] that I didn’t know. So I remember before I did Christmas and stuff that, [00:26:00] that, you know, I got like, I don’t know, a second molar or something with not much clinical crown height that needs [00:26:05] a indirect restoration. It’s like, well, I haven’t got enough room for a core and a porcelain metal. So [00:26:10] being able to do those have a patient in and being able to with [00:26:15] almost no natural retention or resistance form and actually place a restoration that [00:26:20] then you see year after year just functioning and doing and it’s there, um, [00:26:25] was incredibly powerful. Um, you know, adhesion works. It’s brilliant. Um, [00:26:30] obviously choose your right cases, um, and that sort of thing. Um, but that, that [00:26:35] but it’s increments. I’m not sure. I had a big.

Payman Langroudi: Massive I remember for instance, [00:26:40] I remember, for instance, on the same subject, you’re putting a crown on a seven and [00:26:45] it never going into the bite at all, the bite changing and all that. And me having [00:26:50] a moment of, oh my God, occlusion is this whole other thing that I know nothing about. Yeah, yeah, [00:26:55] of course I never went down the Dawson route.

Richard Lee: But I did that because I felt equally with [00:27:00] occlusion that I didn’t know. I didn’t know enough. It’s taught really badly at university. [00:27:05] You know, you got you got occlusion on Prost. You got occlusion on, you know, restorative side of things. You’ve got that they [00:27:10] don’t they don’t always marry up. And you I felt I knew sort of words but I [00:27:15] didn’t really know how that applied to every patient. So to have a that was why I did it, because [00:27:20] I didn’t have a roadmap and I needed to know. And as you say about you choose the thing that you do, [00:27:25] but when you’ve got the map, you can you can plot it out, you can choose what it is, but you need to you need to understand [00:27:30] where those. Yeah, that that what that roadmap is. First of all.

Payman Langroudi: Can we quickly go back to [00:27:35] the Egypt story and tell me what happened in that? Why Egypt? Was it because of diving? [00:27:40]

Richard Lee: Yeah. So I had uh, I had a when I did my elective [00:27:45] at university, I’d gone to Thailand and learned to dive back in the late 90s and, uh, [00:27:50] really enjoyed diving. And I’d gone to Egypt quite a few times diving subsequently, and I loved [00:27:55] it. Um, a place called Dahab, just north of Sharm, um, Red sea. Small Bedouin fishing village, very [00:28:00] chilled, a bit like Thailand, actually. It was on the backpacker trail and the hippy trail in the 60s, and [00:28:05] I loved that place. And I’d gone about 5 or 6 times on holiday, um, knew people there because [00:28:10] there’s loads of people just, you know, Aussies, Kiwis, Saffers, Brits [00:28:15] all just out there just just, you know, doing their thing. And I, I think [00:28:20] what had happened is during all this kind of getting towards this unhappiness that was happening [00:28:25] in, in, in London, um, I’d finally took myself off on a holiday and gone [00:28:30] to Egypt and kind of just realised how unhappy I think I was. [00:28:35] Um, and so it kind of made perfect sense to me when I came back to go, right, well, I’ll [00:28:40] do that thing. No, actually, I will go to Egypt. I thought about it in the past of going to work out there as a divemaster. [00:28:45] So just taking guided dives every day and very quickly, I think within about a week [00:28:50] of getting back, I’d handed my notice in at work and sorting all that stuff out. And about three months later I, [00:28:55] I moved out. Um, the plan was to not spend the entire time there. It was to do [00:29:00] a bit of that. I had a friend getting married in India, so I was going to go there and then carry on down through South East Asia [00:29:05] and, um, and Australia.

Richard Lee: But I loved where [00:29:10] I was so much, and it was such a sort a tight group of friends. And so it was a year of [00:29:15] just diving every day, partying every night. And it was kind of what I needed, [00:29:20] really. Um, and it was just fun. It was it was really, really. And we were living [00:29:25] this kind of crazy life of living, even living in sort of Bedouin, um, camps with, [00:29:30] I mean, concrete, but with camels outside and goats and, you know, and your [00:29:35] landlord was a Bedouin and and it was it was great. And I just I loved that life. But [00:29:40] also through that, that year, I think it gave me a chance to reflect on what it was that I [00:29:45] wanted and did. I want to do dentistry at all. And what I kind of [00:29:50] what sort of settled after that time was that I knew that I, I [00:29:55] didn’t want to stop being a dentist. I just didn’t want to be the sort of dentist that I had been for those [00:30:00] 3 or 4 years, because that wasn’t how I’d sort of trained. It just what had happened, I think. And again, maybe you saved [00:30:05] from NHS work, but but I didn’t I didn’t want to go back to that. So that [00:30:10] sort of crystallised the idea that I was going to go back, back to dentistry, but there was going [00:30:15] to be a big difference. I was going to choose to either do an MSC or do some [00:30:20] further training or something that was going to push me on to the next level because I wasn’t happy with what I [00:30:25] was doing. And that’s what I did. Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: What was the first job back in [00:30:30] the UK that you felt like? Now I’m in a place where I’m doing the dentistry I was trained to do.

Richard Lee: So [00:30:35] I was I went back to I went into a mixed practice. So this was about 2003, 2004. [00:30:40] I went into a mixed practice in Sussex Gardens in, um, Paddington. Yeah. [00:30:45] And, uh.

Payman Langroudi: The one at the top.

Richard Lee: Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Now, Colosseum.

Richard Lee: I don’t know what [00:30:50] it is, I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Know what was it called?

Richard Lee: Uh, it was what it was. It was called then. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Richard Lee: Cambridge [00:30:55] court, Cambridge Colosseum.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Richard Lee: Um, so I went there and I. And I started work [00:31:00] there, I think, uh, January. Anyway, um, I was on Chris’s course by the June and again, I, [00:31:05] they had an old cerec machine. Well, it was old because it was long time ago. But they said, go and do a circuit [00:31:10] course. I did a circuit course and it just so happened I was talking to the guy who was running the circuit course and I said, look, I’m thinking [00:31:15] about doing some sort of, I don’t know, further training or I don’t know. He said, oh, you should. He [00:31:20] goes, I’ve got a colleague. You should you should do his course. He’s really popular. I just started his name is Chris or I’ve never heard [00:31:25] of him. He said, just, you know, just send him an email and, um, and see. [00:31:30] And, um, so I did, and this obviously was very early days. They went, yeah, we’ve got a place I think it was [00:31:35] starting next month, the year course. And and I had no idea what to expect. I literally [00:31:40] went on this recommendation and uh, and that so that straight away got me [00:31:45] into that. And luckily the practice I was in, it was it was mixed practice. But [00:31:50] but there were patients there who were very amenable to having private work done. And it allowed me [00:31:55] the work that what I was learning to do on a, on a monthly basis.

Payman Langroudi: I put it into action, put.

Richard Lee: It into action [00:32:00] straight away, because there was people who were willing to to have that and to and wanted, you know, whatever [00:32:05] it was.

Payman Langroudi: It makes a big difference, isn’t it, it? Because you’re a course organiser now, and it [00:32:10] breaks my heart when people come on a course and don’t put it into action.

Richard Lee: Well, you don’t do it. If you [00:32:15] don’t do it quite quickly, you won’t.

Payman Langroudi: Do it at all because.

Richard Lee: You lose your confidence and you need somebody as a bit of a cheerleader there to say, [00:32:20] go on, it’s okay. You’ll be fine. Nothing bad’s going to happen. Just do what you know you’re supposed to be [00:32:25] doing. Um, and I think when you’re. I don’t know, but Chris is very good at giving you that confidence as well, [00:32:30] saying, just do this. It’s fine. You know, the police aren’t going to come if you do this thing you haven’t done before. [00:32:35] It’s fine. You know, you’ve learned how to do it. You’ll be fine. And I loved [00:32:40] putting stuff into practice straight away and it was great. So then you, you know you so that practice was [00:32:45] very good for that. It allowed me to, to to practice many of the things that I, that I was doing. So that was still mixed practice. [00:32:50] And I and I stayed there right up until the contract change in 2006, the NHS [00:32:55] um, and then went to a wholly private practice. But, um.

Payman Langroudi: Which one was.

Richard Lee: That? [00:33:00] Um, well, just before that I’d started doing, um, I did [00:33:05] part time at, um, there’s a guy, uh, called, um, [00:33:10] um, David Cook, and he owns a practice called holistic, the holistic London [00:33:15] Holistic Dental Centre, and that’s on Harley Street. And I was doing a day a week there, actually. So I was weird. I [00:33:20] was doing NHS most of the week, and then I’d do a week, a day, a day on Harley Street.

Payman Langroudi: What does holistic mean? He was removing [00:33:25] amalgams.

Richard Lee: And he is funny. I like David a lot. He, uh, he [00:33:30] was a bit into that kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Um, supplementation.

Richard Lee: Yeah. That bit [00:33:35] bit of that. But he was LVI as well. But he’s a, he’s a very good solid, restorative dentist as well. So but [00:33:40] anyway he, we shared a hygienist between that practice and their practice. So um, [00:33:45] she’d said oh you know you should speak to David. And anyway so I did some time there. But the practice that I went [00:33:50] to after Sussex Gardens was, um, do you remember, uh, your dentist. Yeah, [00:33:55] there was one in Pall Mall. There was one on Hoban. I do, um, I went, I went to work at one in Hoban [00:34:00] for a couple of years.

Payman Langroudi: Which is in the holistic guy. He was so ahead of his time. Yeah. Who is that?

Richard Lee: David [00:34:05] cook. So ahead of his time? Yeah. Still. Still doing his thing.

Payman Langroudi: Back.

Richard Lee: Then. And there’s still people who kind of [00:34:10] like. Yeah. Sort of like that. That sort of thing. So. Yeah. He. Yeah, he did all the stuff with the tens machines and. Yeah. [00:34:15] Um, so. Yeah. And then then I went there and that was when [00:34:20] I was, uh, there as in at the your dentist. I was there for a couple of years, and [00:34:25] then Chris opened London Bridge and then I went to work. I was his first associate. [00:34:30] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Practice in.

Richard Lee: Yeah. So I was his.

Payman Langroudi: First.

Richard Lee: First associate there, um, [00:34:35] in 2008 or 9. So when it first opened.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [00:34:40] I didn’t know that.

Richard Lee: Yeah. So it was the I think I think I saw the first patient there. Um, [00:34:45] and. Yeah. So that was all very exciting. That was really, you know, that was incredible because obviously [00:34:50] Chris had been such a big mentor and influence. Um, [00:34:55] obviously a phenomenal, you know, sort of space. So, um, so I went [00:35:00] I went there and I was there, Uh, uh, for a couple of years. [00:35:05] Well, I was there full time initially, but it was very quiet. And in the end I ended [00:35:10] up doing part time in the city. Um, and that got busier and busier and busier and busier in the end. I, [00:35:15] um, I dropped Chris’s practice and did full time in the city just because I was so busy there and [00:35:20] then stayed there for years and years and years and years and.

Payman Langroudi: Years as an associate. Which practice [00:35:25] was that?

Richard Lee: Um, that was Devonshire Square. So it was originally owned by a lady called Selina [00:35:30] Sarfraz. And then she sold it to Mark and Adam of, you know, um, and [00:35:35] then Mark and Adam, um, of Harley Street Dental Group, it became part of that. And [00:35:40] they had it for a couple of three years, and that was a great time. That was really good. And then they sold it to Bupa. So then it [00:35:45] became Bupa, and I was with Bupa right up until I went to New Zealand.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Richard Lee: And then came [00:35:50] back and I’m with Bupa again now.

Payman Langroudi: Bupa again in the same place.

Richard Lee: No, I’ve actually moved. I’m [00:35:55] that bank. So.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I know that practice.

Richard Lee: It’s a, it’s a it’s a big practice that one huge. [00:36:00] It’s about to be bigger as well. It’s they’ve got 13 chairs and they’re about to [00:36:05] add seven more. So it’s a it’s a, it’s a it’s a big place. It’s quite different. But my nurse [00:36:10] I’ve been with my nurse for ten years. I went to New Zealand. She’d moved to bank. My practice manager had moved to bank. A few [00:36:15] people had moved to the bank practice. So when I came back, it was quite a kind of nice fit. So I’m back [00:36:20] with my nurses. That’s nice of of many, many years. So that’s that’s quite a nice to come back to. [00:36:25]

Payman Langroudi: I know in this journey that, you know, you’re going to say, and I agree with you that you’re never you’re never fully [00:36:30] comfortable with your knowledge and you’re always learning. And of course, that’s true, but [00:36:35] how many years in did you start thinking, I really get this, I really know this. [00:36:40] By the time you were in Chris was practice. I mean, you must have been getting massive [00:36:45] benefit from his teaching and seeing the work. And then you’re in these high profile [00:36:50] places where people are kind of saying yes to high end stuff, I guess. Is that right?

Richard Lee: I [00:36:55] guess so, I when do you feel when do you feel like you’re not a fraud and you’re not? You’re [00:37:00] not sort of.

Payman Langroudi: I feel like if I had to throw a number out, I would say ten years Post-qualifying is where I [00:37:05] see people talking with confidence about.

Richard Lee: Well, you see people talking about with [00:37:10] confidence sometimes and you think, goodness, I’m not sure what you’re. Uh, but yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Know when I, when [00:37:15] I am sure, you know, I feel like it takes a good look. I’m sure it’s different for different people, you know, uh, [00:37:20] people under Lewis McKenzie’s tutelage like you and Dipesh maybe accelerated. [00:37:25]

Richard Lee: Yeah, I think I felt. Oh, it’s the thing [00:37:30] that you don’t know. What you don’t know, though, isn’t it? You know, when I qualified from university, I felt very confident [00:37:35] and not in a bad way. I felt I knew my limits, but I what I did know [00:37:40] I felt very confident with because the teaching had been so good and is so hands on at Birmingham. And [00:37:45] then it’s only when you start then pushing on through that you realise you know what you what [00:37:50] you don’t know. Um, and I think there’s, there’s stages of that. I mean now there’s so much I don’t know [00:37:55] because there’s so many bits of dentistry that I don’t do now. You know, I’m generally a restorative dentist. [00:38:00] I don’t place implants. I don’t do any surgery, really. I do crown lengthening, but I don’t [00:38:05] I don’t really do any surgery. I don’t do any endo. Don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Children.

Richard Lee: No. No. [00:38:10] So it’s quite it’s quite a narrow, um, range. And part of that is having been in London [00:38:15] for so many years, and it’s a joy because you get to focus more and more on the things that you like. [00:38:20] But the flip side of that is that you say de-skill, but you [00:38:25] start practising some of the other areas of your of your game. So for example, when I moved to New Zealand, you [00:38:30] realise that they don’t, you know, it’s not London anymore and you can’t be flicking [00:38:35] people off referrals left, right and centre because there isn’t a periodontist in town. You have to send them to Auckland [00:38:40] 2.5 hours away or whatever it might be. So they tend to be much more, [00:38:45] um, all rounders, generalists and quite good at lots of different things. [00:38:50] And so it is, it is interesting. So now I’m a Stay, [00:38:55] you know.

Payman Langroudi: Stay in your lane.

Richard Lee: Stay in my lane a little bit. I think [00:39:00] that can be dangerous. And I think sometimes you need to make sure that you’re, um. It doesn’t [00:39:05] get boring again. And you need to be pushing yourself to do other things. So I probably do need to, you know, think [00:39:10] about other, other bits as well. And I don’t do much digital. So I want to sort of, you know, sort [00:39:15] of push that on as well because otherwise you just yeah, it can get a bit boring.

Payman Langroudi: The only way to enjoy dentistry is to [00:39:20] get better at it, unfortunately.

Richard Lee: Yeah it is. Yeah. Because it’s miserable stuff going wrong and you’re not knowing what going wrong. And you’ve got [00:39:25] an angry, pissed off patient who’s, um, you know, saying this, this, this has not [00:39:30] worked for whatever reason. And you and if you don’t know, then, you know, it’s stressful. [00:39:35] You know, you and I hate stress and I hate I hate uncertainty. That’s the other thing. I like to [00:39:40] know that things are going to work.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I remember you said early cerec. I remember early [00:39:45] cerec with the powder.

Richard Lee: Powder. That’s.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And I remember the first five [00:39:50] cases. Definitely. I would have done better if I hadn’t used Siri.

Richard Lee: Oh, God.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:39:55] Yeah.

Richard Lee: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And and I thought, you know, those five had cemented in. Number [00:40:00] one, I’d done a disservice to those five patients. Right. And I had to and I never admitted that [00:40:05] to anyone until right this moment. But for the first time, we do anything. [00:40:10] Yeah, but number two, there was a part of my brain saying, I’ve got something completely predictable, [00:40:15] and I’m swapping it for something a little bit unpredictable. Yeah. But but the [00:40:20] ones who stuck at that into the 10th and the 15th. Yeah. Then made that [00:40:25] predictable.

Richard Lee: And then you keep going. It’s trying to do it in a safe environment, isn’t it? And it’s trying to do it in a way that [00:40:30] you’re trying to give your patients the best treatment. But again, if you are pushing [00:40:35] the envelope a little bit and you’re trying to but but you got to do that incrementally and you, you’ve got to sort of do it in a [00:40:40] nice.

Payman Langroudi: But someone like you look, you’re at the cutting edge almost of the thing that you are at [00:40:45] the cutting edge of. You know what I mean? Yeah, I.

Richard Lee: Yeah, I know what you mean.

Payman Langroudi: So you [00:40:50] have you do you remember moments where things like that happen to you. Did you try [00:40:55] a new material and believe the manufacturer and it didn’t work out? Or do you try a new? [00:41:00]

Richard Lee: I remember going back to the stuff about we were talking about magnet, and I think they’d [00:41:05] done a they’d come over and done a lecture in Edinburgh. It was maybe it was 2009 [00:41:10] or something like that, when they first started talking about immediate dentine sealing and they were doing their [00:41:15] very, you know, non retentive stuff. And at the time I’m sure I remember this correctly. [00:41:20] Um, he was doing it in Feldspathic porcelain, his posterior restoration. So, [00:41:25] you know, not pressed. It was powdered and liquid. I think Michelle was doing it and I was [00:41:30] just like, wow, that’s that’s brave because it’s, you know, strong enough, not very strong. But he’s like, no, no, [00:41:35] this is you know, if the occlusion is right, it’s good. And, you know, right thickness. And so I gave that a go. Um, [00:41:40] mine wasn’t as successful as theirs because it just broke.

Payman Langroudi: How long in did [00:41:45] they start breaking like immediately.

Richard Lee: Didn’t do too many. But it was I think I think within 12 months, you know, you [00:41:50] started getting a few fractures. Not on all of them, but yeah, anything that sort of had anything, [00:41:55] any sort of serious force. So you had to replace them. Um, but in terms of new [00:42:00] materials, I think any new material, particularly with composites, we [00:42:05] get this a lot and we get this a lot on the courses, you know, say, what composite do you use? What composite should I use? And it’s like you [00:42:10] just need to know your composites. You know, you need to know how it works, the [00:42:15] opacity, the how thick you need to be layering. You need to be familiar with the material that you’re using. Um, [00:42:20] whatever, whatever it is that you’re using. Um, so you [00:42:25] might get stuff that comes back in, you’re using a material for the first time, it comes back and you’re reviewing it. It’s a bit [00:42:30] grey, or there’s something that’s not quite right, and it’s just dialling it [00:42:35] in and fine tuning your knowledge of of that material, because I think they all work. I don’t think there’s [00:42:40] any composites out there.

Payman Langroudi: The thing with composite, I think the tension with composite is the [00:42:45] tension between strength and aesthetics, insomuch as the material that’s stronger [00:42:50] generally doesn’t aesthetically look as good down the line, and vice [00:42:55] versa. The material that looks best in ten years time isn’t as strong. And I came [00:43:00] to the conclusion I obviously never did as much as you did, but I came to the conclusion that stain is [00:43:05] the number one enemy. Yeah. And so Polish ability was so important. And [00:43:10] then we were taught not to bleach composites. Right. But now I [00:43:15] completely teach to bleach composites so that they don’t pick up stains.

Richard Lee: Keep it looking nice. [00:43:20] Yeah. Um, yeah. Again, this is what we talk about in the course because it’s, you know, the biggest [00:43:25] reason that if, if an anterior composite is placed for aesthetic reasons, the biggest reason of failure is an [00:43:30] aesthetic reason, and it’s usually staining. Yeah. Um, and it’s usually staining in the obvious places. You know, it’s, [00:43:35] it’s approximately because it hasn’t been finished or it’s been it’s somebody has struggled to [00:43:40] get a nice clean margin.

Payman Langroudi: It is a struggle.

Richard Lee: It is. It is.

Payman Langroudi: Unless you know how to do it.

Richard Lee: It is hard. Absolutely. Those [00:43:45] are areas that are hard to get in afterwards and polish. And if you can’t do that, you’re going to get you’re going to get [00:43:50] staining. Um, but again, I think you’re asking about the, um, earlier [00:43:55] about trying to sort of strive for this excellence. Those are the times because your patients will come [00:44:00] back and there might be a tiny bit of staining somewhere and you’re looking at it under magnification going, yeah, because [00:44:05] perhaps that area is not quite as finished as beautifully as I’d like. And that’s why you spend that time [00:44:10] trying to get it as perfect as possible to try and future proof it for however [00:44:15] long you you possibly can. So I don’t think it’s necessarily that there’s been materials or [00:44:20] an early adopter of something that hasn’t worked, but it’s just I think [00:44:25] changing is stressful. When I moved to New Zealand, um, I it was wholesale change, [00:44:30] obviously for everything. You know, it was I moved as a family with kids, moving school.

Payman Langroudi: Why [00:44:35] did you.

Richard Lee: Move? My wife is Kiwi.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Richard Lee: So, um, [00:44:40] she’d been, um, suggesting for a few years that we should. We just. We [00:44:45] had those conversations for a few years. And, uh, and then [00:44:50] it got to the point where I was like, yeah, actually, because we were thinking about moving out of London. So it’s like, if we’re going to do that, then this, this is the time to do [00:44:55] it. While the kids are relatively small, spend time with, with, you know, the family. Um, [00:45:00] so that that was the plan and but that big change as well [00:45:05] as a social change and family and everything else, it was it was a huge professional change because [00:45:10] what I’d built my practice on for years and years and years was I’d had the same ceramists doing sort of [00:45:15] the veneers and or the restorations that that were sort of my style, my signature kind of thing. [00:45:20] Um, and all that lab work. And we’d grown together. So my Christo [00:45:25] and I had, we’d sort of a similar age and we’d sort of, you know, he’d sort of started the lab about the [00:45:30] same time I started using him. So we’d sort of grown together doing all the occlusion stuff as well.

Richard Lee: So [00:45:35] to suddenly have that taken away was actually really, really hard. Um, [00:45:40] and because you’d have patients come in and say, I’ve seen you work on Instagram [00:45:45] or whatever it is? Yes. I’d like, you know, a smile like that. It’s like, well, I’m only part of the picture. [00:45:50] You know, it’s the what you’re seeing is that beautiful work of the ceramics. And we did send a few cases back to, [00:45:55] to, to, to London to, to be done. I mean, to be fair, I did find a couple of really great ceramists [00:46:00] in, in New Zealand. Um, and they produced some, some really nice work. But it’s, [00:46:05] it’s stressful because it’s, it’s not what you’re used to. And as you say, it’s when you change stuff [00:46:10] you want to, you want to control. We’re all control freaks, I think sort of dentists, you know, you want to [00:46:15] control as many things as you can. And as soon as the things that are outside of your control, particularly that used to be in, [00:46:20] um, I find that I find that very stressful.

Payman Langroudi: I used to work in a seaside town. Older [00:46:25] patients over 70. Um, brilliant technician [00:46:30] that I didn’t realise was a brilliant. I was so young. I just thought, that’s a technician. And [00:46:35] these are patients. And, um, I was killing it, I was, I everything was fitting. [00:46:40] Everyone was saying yes to everything because they had money. You know, [00:46:45] the older generation. Yeah. They don’t have sensitivity or, you know, like [00:46:50] even even, even poorly fitted, uh, temporary crowns. They wouldn’t complain [00:46:55] about them or anything because I was a young dentist.

Richard Lee: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then I remember [00:47:00] thinking, well, I can’t spend my life in Folkestone and all the restaurants were shut in at 830, [00:47:05] so I gotta get back to London. I’ve got a job in the city thinking I’ve killed it in Folkestone. I’m going to destroy [00:47:10] in the city. And technician changed. Yeah. And I realised [00:47:15] how brilliant the other guy was. And then the patience, the city boys [00:47:20] compared to these lovely, easygoing older patients.

Richard Lee: Yeah. [00:47:25] It’s.

Payman Langroudi: I suddenly thought I’m a terrible dentist. I, you know, I went from arrogance to just [00:47:30] melting.

Richard Lee: It’s it’s it’s one of those people that you, you you take [00:47:35] for granted when it’s good. Yeah. Because when it’s because it it should fit you, you know, you do your side [00:47:40] of it. And before I’d found Christo, this is what I was experiencing. I felt like I was I was nailing my side [00:47:45] of it. I kind of got to the stage where I was really happy with my preps. I was really proud of my impressions, you know, sort of really crisp [00:47:50] and lovely. And still there was stuff that I didn’t feel was was right from the lab side, [00:47:55] and that was getting really frustrating. I didn’t know what else I’d be calling them saying, like, what else do you need from me? This doesn’t seem to be working. And [00:48:00] it was only when Christa and I kind of got together that suddenly I felt that that [00:48:05] that it then it was it was a balance and it was both working really, really well. But you you take then you take it for granted [00:48:10] because you think, yeah, they should fit, everything should fit. So the day that something doesn’t fit you, you know, whatever. But [00:48:15] but yeah, if, if you’ve got something that isn’t working and you say you’ve had a [00:48:20] few back that that aren’t quite right, the trepidation on a fit day gets really [00:48:25] quite uncomfortable. You’re like, well, I think particularly if they said to you, well, I’m going away for three weeks next week. So [00:48:30] it needs to fit.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s a massive responsibility. Someone’s found you on Instagram and decided [00:48:35] to come to you.

Richard Lee: Well I like those patients more.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But I think it’s a huge it’s almost a [00:48:40] bigger responsibility than a word of mouth recommendation, because a word of mouth recommendation, as lovely as it’s the [00:48:45] best one, of course, that comes with a degree of bias, right? Like he’s a great guy. Yeah. [00:48:50] You know, someone who’s seen you for six years now refers their best friend. Yeah. There’s there’s some equity [00:48:55] in that. Yes. Whereas someone who’s trusted you on Instagram and come to you, and now you know, you’re [00:49:00] positioned at high prices and now you’re not delivering. It’s upsetting for you. [00:49:05] It is upsetting for you.

Richard Lee: It is you I like, because I got [00:49:10] into Instagram quite late, that I was a very late adopter to that. It was an associate was leaving and [00:49:15] he he was doing it and he goes, oh, you should do it. And I was like, oh yeah, okay. Um, and I just sort [00:49:20] of started doing it, but but I liked the patience I was getting because they had quite [00:49:25] realistic expectations, because they were actually seeing the work that I was doing. That’s that’s the kind of work [00:49:30] that I do. If you like that sort of work, then that’s great. Mhm. Um, you know, you get some idea and they might [00:49:35] go that case I like because I like the, I mean, I attract a particular type of patient, but, you [00:49:40] know, I like the incisal edge on that one. I like the translucency, I like that, but I like the form of that. But [00:49:45] it gives you somewhere to go to with a conversation, you know, rather than somebody coming in who doesn’t know you. And [00:49:50] they say, I want, you know, and it’s it’s quite hard to, to, to pin down. So I liked those [00:49:55] patients in terms of it was they’d selected because they liked your style. [00:50:00] And again, this is why it’s hard if you change something changes like your ceramics changes your style. You [00:50:05] try not to but but things are slightly different. So I like I like those. Yeah. You say word [00:50:10] of mouth is good, but um, but I but people have come and found me through [00:50:15] seeing my work. Um, I, I like that.

Payman Langroudi: Matty talks about [00:50:20] patients who know what they want. Ah, perfect. Yes. The patients who sort of say I trust [00:50:25] you. It’s dangerous. The dangerous ones.

Richard Lee: Yeah. They trust you right up to the point where you do [00:50:30] what you think is right. And that’s not what I wanted. Well, that that that can be that can be quite [00:50:35] challenging. Or they’ll use. So you’ll say, for example, your set of temporary restorations, [00:50:40] you know, ten veneers or ten temporary crowns, whatever it might be. And, [00:50:45] uh, you know, it’s the ones that come back that the review appointments and they’ve got a little piece of paper and they open it up and it’s [00:50:50] this huge, you know, with like tiny, tiny writing. And you go, oh, okay. Right. This is dig [00:50:55] in. We’re going to be here for a while. Um, but I don’t mind if they come. I don’t mind how big that list is. If they come [00:51:00] in and they say, you know, I want this tooth half a millimetre shorter, I want this [00:51:05] have less bulk right here, you know, because these are measurable things that I can do, tic do, [00:51:10] tic do to the more difficult ones are the ones that say, come in and say, um, I [00:51:15] just want them to be more fun. And, you know, there’s [00:51:20] I don’t I don’t know what that means, you know, um, or they’ll say, yeah, [00:51:25] give it give it an emotion. And you say, well, that’s okay. Do you want let’s talk [00:51:30] things that I, you know, know what they are.

Payman Langroudi: You need a guitar. No.

Richard Lee: No. [00:51:35]

Payman Langroudi: Uh, she’s, uh, Basil Mizrahi’s associate. She she talks [00:51:40] about if she can see what the patient is pointing out, then [00:51:45] she will accept that patient, irrespective of any Spidey sense that tells her, don’t [00:51:50] do this. As long as she can see it. Yes, but she goes. The danger is when you can’t see what they’re talking [00:51:55] about.

Richard Lee: I had one recently, and I should have. Red [00:52:00] flags should have been going a bit more. It was. It was a patient who had had several sets of composite [00:52:05] veneers. I think I was the fourth person. And. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So your ego, [00:52:10] your ego is there, right? It does sometimes.

Richard Lee: Sometimes it is. And because you look at it sometimes and, and she’d come [00:52:15] in and they’d been removed the previous set. So they’re half removed half not. So you can’t really tell what’s there. And [00:52:20] but talking about things that you think are quite, you know, it’s like yeah there, you know there it [00:52:25] was hard to floss and my gums are bleeding and you go yeah there is excess around the gum margin. I feel we can improve on this. [00:52:30] So we are still quite cautious. But we did it and we we actually [00:52:35] did it a few at a time. We didn’t do it all in one go. We did a, we did the Centrals then worked back. But um, [00:52:40] but there was a lot of review appointments because and that was the problem is that I couldn’t [00:52:45] see what the issue would be. So when I put the floss, I can hear something. [00:52:50] And I was there with the floss and I was like, tell me if you can hear it now. Now tell me if you can hear it [00:52:55] now. No. And you see, I just I just feel like I can [00:53:00] it’s like I but I can’t hear it. So I and I, and I said if there’s an overhang I’ll remove it. Or [00:53:05] if there’s a ledge, I genuinely I don’t want to start removing composite for the sake of it, because then we’re going to open up a [00:53:10] black triangle and it’s going to be an issue. And it feels really smooth and nice, but sometimes [00:53:15] it’s really hard and you have to have that conversation. It’s like, look, if this, I’ll do whatever is needed [00:53:20] to be done, but if I can’t see it, it’s very difficult and I don’t want to make this worse. So [00:53:25] what happened? Well, I’m very patient, I think. Um, so we had several [00:53:30] appointments. Um, and I just said, look, you know, there’s because [00:53:35] she got a bit sort of like, you know, I don’t feel like you’re listening to me. And I said, well, I feel [00:53:40] like I really am, and I am trying.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, seven appointment.

Richard Lee: Yeah. I said I’m, I’m really trying. Um, [00:53:45] but, you know, it’s difficult. Um, and we in the end, I [00:53:50] did she had the mirror, you know, and I did exactly the thing that she wanted me to do. And I [00:53:55] took lots and lots of photos, and she was happy with that. And then that was that was the last appointment. [00:54:00] But, you know, I look back at those pictures and I’m very happy with the restorations because I think [00:54:05] they addressed everything that was the issue to begin with that I felt. And that she said was was an issue. [00:54:10] And they looked nice. They were very cleanable. They’re very good. But some people, I think when they’ve [00:54:15] had issues with a specific thing, it’s very hard for them to move on [00:54:20] from that. It’s like the classic is the ortho patient who’s had a tooth that’s maybe [00:54:25] in standing, and it gets to be perfectly straight, but they always feel like that [00:54:30] tooth is slightly in standing, because psychologically, that’s always been the been the thing. And it’s almost like you have to bring [00:54:35] that tooth out of the arch slightly and for it to be slightly, you know, for them to kind of get over that [00:54:40] thing. Um, so it can it can be challenging.

Payman Langroudi: Look, cosmetic dentistry. There is a degree of [00:54:45] body dysmorphia in all cosmetic patients. You have to it’s [00:54:50] the right way to look at it anyway, even if it’s. That statement’s incorrect.

Richard Lee: You’re trying to, [00:54:55] you know, at the end of the day, I feel like what I’m trying to do is, is give people a a [00:55:00] really good looking smile that they’re really comfortable and happy with, that I feel happy and proud of as [00:55:05] well. Um, but between those two things, there are, you know, there’s a whole [00:55:10] host of things to, to, to navigate.

Payman Langroudi: Do you ever not do something the patient is [00:55:15] asking for?

Richard Lee: I have not often.

Payman Langroudi: No, I know, I know, maybe you’re not [00:55:20] getting the same types of patients as, uh, you know, people in Manchester or. I don’t want to categorise [00:55:25] it like that, but we sell a lot of Super bright one. Composite in Manchester? Yeah. [00:55:30] Um, but if you get a patient saying, look, I want them whiter than white toilet bowl, white and square. Would [00:55:35] you say I’m not the right dentist for you?

Richard Lee: I do sometimes. Um, but again, this is where Instagram [00:55:40] is really useful because they can see, generally speaking, that isn’t the type.

Payman Langroudi: To attract those.

Richard Lee: Sort of patients. [00:55:45] Um, you know, there are and there are people who do that work and they do it, you know, well, [00:55:50] in terms of it fits well and it’s, you know, it’s cleansing and it’s good. It’s not might not [00:55:55] be your aesthetic.

Payman Langroudi: But from the, from, from the sort of professional perspective. Yeah. Like, I don’t know, [00:56:00] this is a ridiculous comparison. But imagine if you were a carpenter and someone said, make [00:56:05] me a pink bookcase with orange doors. You’re [00:56:10] the carpenter. Yeah. Yeah. So, so. And I understand, you know, [00:56:15] the person’s a walking advert, so it’s not quite like a wardrobe. [00:56:20] It’s.

Richard Lee: No, it can, it can be difficult I there’s not I [00:56:25] Generally speaking, I don’t get those patients. There’s there’s occasionally where [00:56:30] they say, you know, I want them to look fake. I want them to look.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah, I want them to look dumb.

Richard Lee: I want [00:56:35] to look. Yeah. I’ve had people say the word fake. I want it to look fake.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve noticed American patients.

Richard Lee: Okay. [00:56:40] And I say, and I, I don’t get I mean very rarely. And and but my [00:56:45] answer will usually be there are people who do that really, really well. And that [00:56:50] isn’t perhaps my forte, but there are people who, you know, that’s that’s more you could you could.

Payman Langroudi: Pull it off.

Richard Lee: Dude, [00:56:55] you could do it. It depends. I think it’s it’s interesting, isn’t it? Because we’ve all moved. But, [00:57:00] but but you stop being the arbiter of what’s what’s what, what’s what’s right, not what’s right, but what [00:57:05] what looks right. You know, so we you know, we know what smile design is [00:57:10] and we and there’s variations on that. But if, if they’re going sort of outside [00:57:15] of that, um, you stop being the judge of whether it’s successful or not [00:57:20] or to a degree. I mean, it’s cosmetic dentistry. So ultimately it’s always the patient that decides. But if it’s [00:57:25] so far away from your parameters and your sort of.

Payman Langroudi: I think what’s really interesting part of that is [00:57:30] you could say, as the expert, I’m telling you, you’re not going to be happy with what you’re saying. [00:57:35] Yeah, that’s that’s a very nuanced excellent point.

Richard Lee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I think but if you if you, if [00:57:40] the person says, listen, I actually want this and I will be happy [00:57:45] with it, then, you know, informed consent. It’s not your [00:57:50] job to I do I.

Richard Lee: Do try and teach treat them like grown ups and if I [00:57:55] you know and it might be that it suits that person you know that but I, I say I don’t I don’t [00:58:00] generally get those patients which is probably.

Payman Langroudi: Something that comes across.

Richard Lee: No it doesn’t, it doesn’t it doesn’t come up very [00:58:05] often. Um, I have had patients before just because and I’ve just said, look, I don’t think I’m going [00:58:10] to be able to make you happy before you start, but you don’t do that when you’re younger. You know, [00:58:15] it takes years of, you know, because you think you can fix anything. I think when you’re young, [00:58:20] you know, you just that’s you feel there’s nothing that’s not, there’s not there’s not fixable that you can’t [00:58:25] do. And I think it takes a few years for you to go. I don’t think this one. [00:58:30] This one’s for me. And I think you’ll be happier somewhere else. Um, and I think it takes, you [00:58:35] know, if you’re a young dentist and you’re starting to do cosmetic dentistry or getting into that, that, [00:58:40] that side of things, there’s not, it’s hard to say no to something, you know, [00:58:45] because it’s difficult. You know, you’re trying to get these patients, you’re trying to get patients on board to kind of do the things and [00:58:50] practice your skill set. And somebody comes along wanting your services, um, to actually go, [00:58:55] no, is it’s a really big difficult thing, I think. But it’s such a powerful thing. I think it happens [00:59:00] more as you get older that, you know, I think generally in life, saying no is a is a I’m quite a [00:59:05] big people pleaser, which I think to my detriment sometimes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Your biggest strength ends up being your biggest weakness [00:59:10] as well. Yeah.

Richard Lee: You just you just can’t constantly.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the same reason why people love being your patient and recommending [00:59:15] people to you is that thing.

Richard Lee: Yeah, it’s a really nice guy, you know. And. Yeah. [00:59:20] And I know I’ve got other colleagues who just are, I think, quite brutal, [00:59:25] you know. Um, but they’ve got their patience as well that love them and that’s their style and that’s and that’s how [00:59:30] I’m. I always want to make my patients really happy. I think we all do too. But I will [00:59:35] go I will keep going, keep going, keep going. Um, but it’s great if you can spot them before [00:59:40] you start.

Payman Langroudi: Because that’s all clinically. Um, what’s the I [00:59:45] mean, you’re a teacher. What’s what’s what are some things that most dentists don’t know [00:59:50] that you wish they did in whichever area you want to start? Like, let me give [00:59:55] you an example. What do you think about that? Um, in composites, I wish most dentists [01:00:00] would focus on primary anatomy. You know.

Richard Lee: You probably beat me to that one. Um, [01:00:05] I absolutely agree with composite. I think there is. I don’t know whether [01:00:10] we’re not taught it or we don’t understand it or not. Enough time is spent on it. But dentists are really bad at making teeth look like [01:00:15] teeth.

Payman Langroudi: We don’t crazy, though, isn’t it the amount of time we spend doing other stuff?

Richard Lee: Yeah, I know 99. Yes. [01:00:20] I had actually an aha moment was uh, it was I think it was the first Bacardi conference [01:00:25] I’d ever been to, uh, 2005. I think it was like the second or third one or something. And [01:00:30] Lee Culp, the, you know, the famous, um, technician [01:00:35] ceramist was over from the States and his whole lecture was just on anterior [01:00:40] tooth anatomy, and I’d never really looked at it or studied it or thought about it before. And it was such a [01:00:45] wow kind of moment of like, right, this is what teeth can and should look like. [01:00:50] And, um, but generally speaking, having done lots and lots of hands on courses for [01:00:55] dentists, dentists aren’t great at replicating that. Um, [01:01:00] and I say, I don’t know why. Um, but it’s such an important skill to have, whether you’re fashioning a temporary crown [01:01:05] or you’re doing a composite restoration. Um, primary anatomy, I mean, even, [01:01:10] you know, just getting line angles as well. That’s that’s probably one of my biggest, not bugbears, [01:01:15] but frustrations is you’ll see so many cases where they’ve taken a [01:01:20] photograph and there’s a big you know, the flash bounced off the middle of the tooth because that’s the most round part. [01:01:25] And there’s no transition line into the into the embrasures. So [01:01:30] we spend a lot of time on the course trying to get people to put enough volume on those [01:01:35] transitional angles so that you can actually create something that’s going to reflect light, because if the composite is not there in the first [01:01:40] place, you can’t possibly shape it to reflect light. It’s just there’s just nothing there to to [01:01:45] to shape.

Payman Langroudi: What’s interesting is we at the beginning of our course, we ask, what do you want to get out of this course? And [01:01:50] lots of people talk about colour layering which which [01:01:55] really isn’t the biggest problem.

Richard Lee: No it’s not. And I and I think again, it’s probably cause they don’t understand the [01:02:00] materials they’re using necessarily, you know, because again, if you go back to, you know, showing [01:02:05] the work that he did in the 90s and he’s showing like a 20 year review or something, well, he didn’t [01:02:10] have all the fancy composites that we had or the systems. You know, he kind of tried [01:02:15] different ones out and worked out, which were more opaque and enamels. And it still looks. It still [01:02:20] looks good because you say the primary anatomy is good and the the finish is good and everything else but the colour is pretty good [01:02:25] as well because he understood the materials that he was using. So it’s, it’s [01:02:30] all yeah, it’s whenever you show a nice composite that’s what composites that as though. [01:02:35]

Payman Langroudi: It’s the composite that was the.

Richard Lee: You know and and yes obviously certain composites I think are [01:02:40] sort of lend themselves to, you know, to some nicer restorations. But [01:02:45] it’s not about the composite, you know.

Payman Langroudi: While we’re on it though, did you see Pascal Venuti’s little rant [01:02:50] recently? The last couple of days? A few days. So he’s a patients come in with a broken [01:02:55] glass for type situation, and he’s fixed it in half an hour. And he [01:03:00] said this shouldn’t take longer than half an hour and you shouldn’t layer it, and you shouldn’t try and make it look like the [01:03:05] prettiest tooth in the world, because this is plastic and plastic, and within two years, it’s all going to look [01:03:10] the same. If you want to get it right, do it with porcelain, right? And patients who [01:03:15] can afford it should definitely have porcelain. Right? And then you see the tooth and it’s it’s [01:03:20] a perfectly competent filling. Yeah. Like, you know the line angles there and everything, but but [01:03:25] it’s not even trying to look like the tooth next door with a whatever mamelons. Which he said, [01:03:30] oh, if I include the mammals, I would have weakened this plastic even more. What do you think [01:03:35] about that? I mean, there is a point there. There is a point there. Insomuch as time is money, time [01:03:40] is cost to the patient. I still think it comes back to consent.

Richard Lee: I [01:03:45] completely agree with you. Who are we to say what the patient be spending their money on? Yeah. And [01:03:50] who are we to say that? Okay, so if you’ve got a strategy that’s going to smash out single, [01:03:55] you know, veneer on a tooth and get it right first time every time, then that’s that. That would be nice as well. But [01:04:00] I think to be so prescriptive can be very difficult. You know, that everybody should have a ceramic [01:04:05] if they could afford it or, you know, competent, don’t spend long because it’s going to look pretty rubbish. I think [01:04:10] neither of those things are true. And life isn’t black and white, and there’s lots of grey in the middle. And I [01:04:15] think composite can look great for many, many years. And you know, we all know how and why. So, um, [01:04:20] yeah. Yeah. You know, don’t give that much.

Payman Langroudi: So but [01:04:25] there is you know, you’re known for composite to some extent, but you’re massively good at ceramic. [01:04:30]

Richard Lee: To composite became a thing because I, uh, [01:04:35] so when I first started, the very first layering I did again was on Chris Saw’s course. That’s where it first started. [01:04:40] Um, and I really enjoyed it. I liked the artistic side of things. I wanted to do art a level, but it didn’t [01:04:45] fit with physics or something silly. So. So I like the, um, [01:04:50] the arty side of things, and it’s nice you get to, you know, I find it very relaxing. You have an hour or two in the [01:04:55] surgery and the music’s on and the rubber dams on. It’s very it’s very relaxing. Um, and I like [01:05:00] that. So I think because I was doing more and more of it, I kind of became known for, for doing, for doing [01:05:05] composite. But yeah, it was in terms of my day that wasn’t it wasn’t like I do composites [01:05:10] 95% of the day. I mean, I’d probably do more now because for that reason, it’s a self-fulfilling [01:05:15] prophecy, isn’t it? You put more out there and people go, oh, I’ll send you composites. But I do do a lot of ceramic, and I really [01:05:20] enjoy doing porcelain work. And again, it’s a joy when you’ve got such a great, great ceramics to work with.

Richard Lee: But [01:05:25] I don’t think you can do one or the other. I don’t think it’s all, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, there’s [01:05:30] different. There’s the right thing for different people. And I, I spent this morning taking off some really [01:05:35] average composite veneers for somebody. And again it was their third or fourth one. [01:05:40] Um she’d flown over. I was very lucky. She’d flown over, I think from Qatar [01:05:45] to see me. And she was having, she’s having ortho as well. So we’re having to take all the composite off. Then she’s [01:05:50] having the ortho get teeth in the right position. And then actually I’m going to do porcelain because she’s had loads of goes [01:05:55] at this at the composite. And the teeth aren’t great underneath as in there’s, you know, it just I think it’d be better, you [01:06:00] know, less maintenance, less. She’s had enough of it, you know, just get it done [01:06:05] in porcelain and it’s going to last a good long while. So I don’t think it’s, you know, I have patients, I do [01:06:10] do lots of composite, but I also love doing doing porcelain as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Look, I often think about [01:06:15] my, uh, brother. He he had veneers, but he had imperfecta. [01:06:20] He had veneers put on at the Eastman when he was 16. And, uh, now he’s [01:06:25] 53 and, uh, they’re still there. Yeah. Yeah.

Richard Lee: Amazing. [01:06:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It would not have managed that.

Richard Lee: No, no, it really wouldn’t. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: There would [01:06:35] have been 6 or 7 events. Right.

Richard Lee: And it’s funny, you know, people say again I love it because it’s you can [01:06:40] beat me. Patients like the idea that you’re not going to drill teeth or pretty much everything I do with composite, [01:06:45] I don’t tend to do any tooth reduction. Um, but I don’t there’s a lot [01:06:50] of people putting a lot of composite on a lot of teeth out there, and you see it and it’s it’s [01:06:55] okay. And but a lot of it, I think, or I worry about five [01:07:00] years down the line because a lot of this stuff’s going to have to be taken off and I.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [01:07:05] the thing is, it’s such an unforgiving material. Yeah. That it’s is five years is quite, quite a long time, right. [01:07:10] You know, small little, little potholes within [01:07:15] five months could get black. And they can, they can.

Richard Lee: Yeah. It’s and there’s a lot it’s [01:07:20] a bit of a race to the bottom as well for some people with the.

Payman Langroudi: Pricing.

Richard Lee: Pricing.

Payman Langroudi: It’s mad. [01:07:25]

Richard Lee: It is. But you’re going to get what you. But again it’s people will will you know right. I’m going to pay £150 [01:07:30] a tooth.

Payman Langroudi: And I don’t even like the idea. Yeah. That it’s they say half [01:07:35] the price of a porcelain. I don’t even like that. Because from the operator perspective, [01:07:40] it’s much harder than doing a porcelain than it is much harder it is. I’d say it takes [01:07:45] longer and it’s harsher. Harder. I there’s no lab fee but you [01:07:50] know.

Richard Lee: Yeah. No it is it is much harder. I, I don’t do [01:07:55] many, uh, like.

Payman Langroudi: Multiple.

Richard Lee: Teeth. No, no, I love doing composite and I love [01:08:00] working on the front sort of for maybe 60, but I very rarely will. I do sort of 5 to 5 in composite. [01:08:05] I find it really some people just smash out in a brilliant at it. You know, there’s [01:08:10] loads of people who are really good at it and just seem to to just do that all day long and really nail it. I [01:08:15] find it much more difficult, as you say, and I’d rather do that sort of thing [01:08:20] in porcelain if I can. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Expand on New [01:08:25] Zealand for me. Okay. So yeah, change wasn’t comfortable.

Richard Lee: It [01:08:30] was difficult. I’m not I’m not a fan of change anyway. Generally speaking, I’ll have the same thing for [01:08:35] lunch for like three years. I’m there. Yeah, yeah yeah I, I’m not. Yeah I’m not [01:08:40] a big fan of change but um New Zealand. So it’s. Have [01:08:45] you been. No it’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: It’s I could see.

Richard Lee: It’s I mean it is spectacular. [01:08:50] It’s it’s one of the most beautiful countries. Um, it’s it’s [01:08:55] isolated and that’s one of the things. So, um, you’ve got half the population [01:09:00] of London spread out over the landmass of the United Kingdom. Mhm. I think two [01:09:05] thirds of those are on the North Island and about two thirds of them are in Auckland. So it’s it’s pretty [01:09:10] sparsely populated except Auckland which is a horrible big [01:09:15] traffic jam. It’s just it’s very difficult to get around. It’s it’s hard. We lived in a place called [01:09:20] uh, Tauranga which is on the North Island East coast, Bay of plenty. [01:09:25] It’s about 2.5 hours. Three hours south, uh, east of of of [01:09:30] Auckland. Very beautiful. When we went over, we, uh, we had I had a job offer from [01:09:35] Auckland and a couple of other places, and we decided to go for a much smaller place because we thought, let’s [01:09:40] do the beach thing. Let’s, you know, we’ve done city good life. Yeah. Let’s see, you know, let’s let’s really embrace [01:09:45] the whole the whole thing. And it is it’s a stunning beach and it’s and it’s and it’s beautiful. [01:09:50] Um, it’s not Australia. So people often think like New Zealand sunshine.

Richard Lee: Yeah. [01:09:55] We had so much rain. I mean, we had the wettest winter on record when we were there. I mean, and when it rains, [01:10:00] it just rains and it will rain for like six days constantly a heavy, heavy, heavy [01:10:05] rain. So lots of I mean, it’s very green, so lots and lots of rain. Um, there’s lots of great things [01:10:10] about New Zealand. Um, is it is a it’s funny with the dentistry [01:10:15] because you’ve got one dental school, so everybody kind of knows each other to a point, you know, because [01:10:20] they’ve all had the same teachers. They’ve all been there at the same time probably. Um, but [01:10:25] it’s, it is a small I went to the nsda, I spoke at uh, at the conference and then [01:10:30] went to the thing after. And obviously everyone, you know, it’s all kind of just meeting up. They’re all sort of it’s very tight. It’s very it’s very it’s very [01:10:35] that’s very nice. Um, but it’s just I felt quite isolated. I mean, we [01:10:40] both did, both myself and my wife, um, she, she’d been in London for about 15 [01:10:45] years, so it was quite, you know, going back there that felt.

Payman Langroudi: She’s not Dental, is she?

Richard Lee: No, no. Dental. [01:10:50] But she. But she’d been, um, here for a long time so that, you know, going [01:10:55] back there, you know, things change a little bit. And, uh, we got we finished Covid [01:11:00] here, so we just finished all the lockdowns here and we went and then we did Covid in New Zealand because they [01:11:05] just started it, started it there. Uh, so it was it [01:11:10] was fun. But it we felt just I think I felt a bit professionally isolated, [01:11:15] a bit quite geographically isolated. It’s like four hours, 3.5 hours to get to Australia, you know. [01:11:20] So for a change of, of culture, it’s, it’s it’s a long way to go. Um, you [01:11:25] know, they’re very proud little island nation and it’s and there’s lots of cool things about it. But [01:11:30] I love London. I, you know, it was a, it was, it was quite the gear change going from London [01:11:35] to, to, to there. Um, for, for all sorts of reasons. Um, so [01:11:40] we did it and it was, as I say, it was great to, to, you know, see the family and that’s, [01:11:45] you know, that side of the family and the kids to sort of see those grandparents and have all that.

Richard Lee: And I did cool stuff, [01:11:50] like we had a, we had a jet ski and we had a I went on big treks with my brother in law [01:11:55] through just like stunning scenery, just, you know, you look back at the photos you can’t quite believe, like, what this place [01:12:00] is like. Um, but after about a year or so, maybe 18 [01:12:05] months, we said, well, where do we want to wake up in 5 or 10 years? Where do we want the kids to, to, to grow [01:12:10] up. And we just felt that that actually UK, we, we preferred overall. Um, so [01:12:15] yeah, we made our decision and came and came back. So yeah, it was a funny one because I think people thought we were making the [01:12:20] move forever. And what we’d always said was, we’ll do two years and we’ll see. And if it’s if we prefer it, then [01:12:25] that’s great. We’re there. And if we prefer to here, well, when we’ve done that and that’s, that’s been really cool. And [01:12:30] then, you know, we’ve had that adventure and then we’ll, then we’ll come back.

Payman Langroudi: Did you how long before [01:12:35] you went, did you know you were going I mean, did you did you have contacts out there. Were [01:12:40] you started putting feelers out in the Dental?

Richard Lee: Yeah. So I sort of properly started putting [01:12:45] feelers out probably about six months before we went. Um, so again, really [01:12:50] small, you know, kind of everyone knows each other, but I, I think I just sort of looked to [01:12:55] where we thought about living and send a couple of emails off. Um, [01:13:00] but you know, all the, you know, the cliches about New Zealand, that it’s, you know, 30 years behind. [01:13:05] So and it is a bit true in some bits in terms of dentistry as in the, [01:13:10] the cosmetic revolution was a bit slower there. It’s coming and it’s building and it’s, it’s getting there. [01:13:15] But it’s not like it is. It is here. Having said that, they’re much more onto digital and all that [01:13:20] kind of stuff because they’re so isolated. They haven’t got labs next door and that kind of thing. So they’re all doing like [01:13:25] scanning and milling and and all that, you know, they do all that stuff. So it’s not fair to say that they’re already [01:13:30] behind. Um, so I’d sent a few emails out and then there was, um, there’s [01:13:35] a big corporate, they’re called Lumino, which is, um, a bit like Bupa, I suppose, [01:13:40] all over the all over the country. And they had a sort of flagship cosmetic [01:13:45] practice in Auckland, where, funnily enough, there was a dentist there who, um, yeah, [01:13:50] kind of cosmetic. He’d done like sort of ten years younger and that sort of stuff. And he was retiring and they were quite keen for me to sort of come in and [01:13:55] sort of slip in behind, behind him. Um, and we almost did that. And I had the [01:14:00] contract and we were going to sign and, um, then we just had a last moment of like, let’s not do Auckland, [01:14:05] let’s do the beach.

Richard Lee: And and we did that. Um, and I, you know, again, sliding doors, [01:14:10] you don’t know which whether one would have been preferable to the other because we, we, we enjoyed where we were. But [01:14:15] so that practice I went to was a um, a smaller practice. So, but [01:14:20] it built like the cosmetic stuff sort of built and um, less indirect stuff [01:14:25] and more composite stuff. So again, um, cost [01:14:30] wise, you know, New Zealand, they don’t spend quite so much money on their, on their teeth. Um, so not [01:14:35] everybody was up for doing porcelains, but that was great to do. I did a lot of, um, [01:14:40] injection moulding with, with composites with loads of great cases with that and took train the [01:14:45] labs in what I wanted for that sort of stuff. So, so that was quite interesting. And then did the courses [01:14:50] when I was out there as well. So I was running, running composite courses initially just a two day, Today direct. [01:14:55] And then we’re doing a one day injection moulding one as well. So that’s [01:15:00] been quite nice because that I’m going back um, two weeks time. Um, [01:15:05] going to Sydney. Yeah. So I’ve got a three days teaching in Sydney. So doing [01:15:10] the. Yeah, the freehand and the one day injection moulding. There’s a couple of places left on that one and then [01:15:15] to Auckland to do the same again. And that’s full with quite a long waiting list that one. So that’s [01:15:20] that’s great. And that’s a really nice thing.

Payman Langroudi: To which composite do you use for the for the injection moulding.

Richard Lee: Um, [01:15:25] um, genial. Um injectable. Yeah. Uh, universal injectable. So, [01:15:30] yeah, you know, there’s the flow and there’s the injectable, but the, um, the injectable usually. [01:15:35]

Payman Langroudi: But they’re.

Richard Lee: Both, they’re both they’re both really composite. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And do you do that alternate [01:15:40] do.

Richard Lee: Uh, yes I either do every other two sometimes. Sometimes tooth by tooth but usually every other tooth. [01:15:45] But I, I often will. My wax ups tend to be not digital. We tend to have them analogue. [01:15:50] Um, so I don’t do every other, you know, those models. There’s every other tooth, but we just. Yeah, there’s ways [01:15:55] of doing it. Um, so that’s a nice that’s a nice technique. And, um.

Payman Langroudi: Are you not concerned [01:16:00] for the strength of the flowable?

Richard Lee: No, it’s incredibly strong. It’s remarkable. It’s more wear resistant [01:16:05] than than, uh, paste composites. It’s the [01:16:10] literature now is. It’s all there. Um, it works incredibly well. I use it in [01:16:15] big wear cases. Restoring wear cases. Yeah. Um, it holds up remarkably [01:16:20] well.

Payman Langroudi: Not any flowable that one.

Richard Lee: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because flowable, you know, the flowable is normally flowable [01:16:25] because it hasn’t got much filler. Yeah. Um, where this is got lots and lots of filler. Same amount of filler as a paste composite, [01:16:30] but just the way it’s salinated and the way that it the fillers can move means that it’s actually, you [01:16:35] know, you can push it through the end of a syringe, um, and it and it flows.

Payman Langroudi: I think the Japanese, they’ve [01:16:40] figured something out about desalination that makes that possible because the [01:16:45] papers I saw on it, it’s only the Japanese manufacturers that have got. But but [01:16:50] all of them. Right.

Richard Lee: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. There’s some genius. That’s right. Come up with.

Richard Lee: Something. There [01:16:55] is another one, isn’t there? That there? Yes. Because obviously this is juicy stuff. So that’s all. Um. So. Yeah. [01:17:00] No, it’s incredibly strong. It’s remarkable stuff.

Payman Langroudi: I think Tokuyama has a similar thing. Shofu has a similar [01:17:05] thing. Some genius somewhere in Japan. Yeah. Or maybe there’s a there’s a, you know, one [01:17:10] of these contract manufacturers who’s supplying all of them. All of them has the genius for the nation [01:17:15] stuff.

Richard Lee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So did you feel when you, when you decided to come back that, [01:17:20] you know, was that like an emotional decision, like or not. Did you was it was it [01:17:25] very simple?

Richard Lee: Uh, it was a very simple decision. Yeah. We we both felt. Which was good. We both felt exactly [01:17:30] the same way. Um, so that was. That was good. Um, we’d come back about [01:17:35] 18 months in. We’d come back for a month recce to have a look at where we wanted to be and [01:17:40] that sort of thing. And that was really nice. It was summer. We’d come back to London and [01:17:45] that felt lovely. It felt really, and we knew even we’d already decided. But coming [01:17:50] back sort of reinforced that, yes, this is this is what we’ve missed.

Payman Langroudi: But then you didn’t live in London, did you? So [01:17:55] you’re living in Winchester?

Richard Lee: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So we didn’t come back to London. I like London, but, um. [01:18:00] Yeah, we decided for lots of reasons, really, that, um, we’d been looking around [01:18:05] just to be just outside London, looking that sort of commuter bit. Um, and [01:18:10] Winchester had been on the list before we’d left for New Zealand anyway as a, as a possible. And [01:18:15] we’d gone and had a look at that and we just really liked it. It was enough going on. There’s, you know. [01:18:20]

Payman Langroudi: Is there, is it a good restaurant and good everything.

Richard Lee: You need. Yeah. Great restaurants, great pubs, beautiful [01:18:25] walks. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The good thing is the quality of restaurants has gone up nationally. Yeah. Yeah. 5 [01:18:30] or 6 years ago. Yeah. I mean I caught this marvellous coffee [01:18:35] in Aberdeen. I wasn’t expecting to go. Yeah. And this was about eight years ago and I remember, [01:18:40] I remember thinking this was this is new. Yes. You know something? Something’s changed. [01:18:45] Yeah. Something’s changed. And, and I go all over the country now and I get great food in many [01:18:50] towns.

Richard Lee: But it’s, it’s, it’s it’s a quite foodie place and it’s got, um, beautiful pubs. I mean, [01:18:55] it’s the old capital of Wessex and England. It’s like.

Payman Langroudi: It’s beautiful up.

Richard Lee: There. Yeah. I mean, [01:19:00] so, so it’s stunning. So, um, and also you’re we’re really well placed for the coast [01:19:05] and the Isle of Wight and New Forest and all these sort of places that we don’t, we haven’t really explored [01:19:10] very much. So and I was saying that the commute actually works really well. It’s um, we live [01:19:15] five minute walk from the station. It’s 57 minutes on the train to Waterloo, and, [01:19:20] um, bank is not not very far from there. So that’s that’s not bad.

Payman Langroudi: You say that three hours a day, [01:19:25] though. Yeah. Do you work five days a week or four days a week?

Richard Lee: I’ve done for forever. I’m a big proponent of [01:19:30] Wednesdays off. Wednesdays are the most important days. Oh, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: I like a weekend day.

Richard Lee: The weekends [01:19:35] long enough. You’ve already got two days.

Payman Langroudi: I like long weekend every weekend. But but, but.

Richard Lee: But I get, like, sort [01:19:40] of too many weeks.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Richard Lee: So it’s, you know, it’s a day and then and then you get that, that break in [01:19:45] the middle is I love it sometimes during the school holidays I forget it’s flipped around and I do Monday, [01:19:50] Tuesday, Wednesday and then Thursday off on Friday and I the three days in a row just [01:19:55] kills me. But, you know, dentistry is hard. Dentistry is a physical, [01:20:00] hard profession. And I know we’re not down a mine, but it is, you know, it’s it’s physically [01:20:05] well, you know, it’s not, you know, I mean, come on. But it’s, it’s I think it’s mentally quite draining. [01:20:10] I think it’s physically quite draining. And if you’re doing long appointments or seeing a high volume of patients, [01:20:15] um, five days is too much. Yeah. You know, and maybe when you, you know, this is what I found when I [01:20:20] was, you know, 23 and 24, it’s you can do it for a bit, but at some point something stops [01:20:25] working quite so well.

Payman Langroudi: Have you actively decided never to own a practice, or [01:20:30] is it just the way the chips have fallen?

Richard Lee: A bit of both, I think. I think you do. If you’d have asked me five years ago, will [01:20:35] you buy a practice? I’d probably gone. Yea, but that in the same way that people say when they’re young, you [01:20:40] know, we get married, people go, yeah, you know, it’s that kind of because that’s what people do is they go through. But I [01:20:45] think I realised the last few years that it doesn’t really hold that much [01:20:50] interest for me that having the business. Um, I’ve been fortunate that I’ve worked in practices [01:20:55] that have given me everything that I want. Um, you know, so great staff [01:21:00] and, you know, and the patients come to me. So that’s [01:21:05] that, that that works well without all the, the headache of, you know, some people obviously [01:21:10] just, you know, that’s what they want. They want to control all of that, control their environment, control everything. But I’ve, [01:21:15] I’ve never really felt if there’s ever been a practice where that’s not been quite right, [01:21:20] then I’ve just I’ve just moved practice and then found where I’m happy. Um, and [01:21:25] then when the kids were younger, I loved being able to leave work and get home and see them again. [01:21:30] Doing the four days was amazing. I felt very privileged that I could have, you know, almost half [01:21:35] the week with with the kids when they were little, because that that time just goes in, in no time, [01:21:40] you know.

Payman Langroudi: And another one of the cliches, which is actually real life, It.

Richard Lee: Is. It is, you know, it’s the whole the [01:21:45] whole thing. The days are long and the years are short. I mean, they, they it flies and you can’t you can’t [01:21:50] redo those, you know. So we were very mindful. I was very mindful of that right from the get go. [01:21:55] And I didn’t want to be. Yeah I mean everyone makes their own choices [01:22:00] for different reasons. But that that was what I, what I wanted to do.

Payman Langroudi: So was your partner do.

Richard Lee: Uh, she’s a [01:22:05] medical secretary now. She was at home with the kids for about ten years. Yeah, she was a practice manager. We met [01:22:10] because she was a practice manager.

Payman Langroudi: At one of the places you worked. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Richard Lee: Um, [01:22:15] so, um. Yeah. So that. So then [01:22:20] having the practice, I mean, it would have made sense to have a practice because, um, you know, that that [01:22:25] that would have worked out.

Payman Langroudi: If you ruled it out now.

Richard Lee: Yeah. You’re too old, I think, for that sort of.

Payman Langroudi: I wouldn’t [01:22:30] say I wouldn’t say that, but but there is I come across a lot of dentists. Right. And and the successful [01:22:35] super associate is one of the happiest [01:22:40] types I meet mean, because like you say, you haven’t got the hassles [01:22:45] of seems.

Richard Lee: To be the.

Payman Langroudi: People hassles.

Richard Lee: Yeah, absolutely. The thing that I hear people moan about the [01:22:50] most are people, you know, the staffing issues, whether it’s technicians and labs, whether it’s, [01:22:55] um, practices. Um, I think, you know, I’ve spoke to long term associates [01:23:00] who’ve bought into their practice and said it’s the worst thing I ever did. Um, and I think [01:23:05] maybe also because in the back of my mind, maybe for a long time there was that possible New Zealand move as well. [01:23:10] So there was kind of maybe that was just sort of like, well, we’re going to probably be shifting at some point. So [01:23:15] but all that together, I was like, no, actually I, I love [01:23:20] the, um, the craft of dentistry. I really do [01:23:25] enjoy the that um, I, I, I’m not that bothered by, by [01:23:30] the business side of things. Um, it doesn’t, it doesn’t, it doesn’t.

Payman Langroudi: I think you’d be quite good at it though.

Richard Lee: I [01:23:35] don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Know. I think you would, you know, the communication side, you know, with you, it’s [01:23:40] very, very natural. Yeah. And so that’s all it is? Yeah. Okay. But but [01:23:45] but but but but but like I say, one of the happiest constituencies I come across are [01:23:50] those super associates. How how confident are you when I say super associate. Normally what I mean by [01:23:55] that is patients come to you. Yeah. How confident are you if you change practice tomorrow that [01:24:00] you’d be busy enough to.

Richard Lee: Well, obviously it’s been a lot of change the last [01:24:05] few years. I’ve been sort of living that.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve been living that thing.

Richard Lee: Yeah. So it’s funny, I think [01:24:10] if because when I. Before we moved to New Zealand, I was at the practice in the city for ten, [01:24:15] 12 years, and if I’d have moved, I think, yeah, I’d have, you know, nothing much would have changed. It would [01:24:20] have just all kind of followed. Obviously when you tell people you’re leaving, the hemisphere is [01:24:25] not even the country, you know, um, it changes, you know, you, you I [01:24:30] passed on I actively passed on those patients to all sorts of different people. Um, [01:24:35] and then you come back and I’ve seen some of them, Um, but, you know, a couple of years on, [01:24:40] unless I’ve done, like, a full rehab on someone, like, you know, if I’ve done the odd online things here and there [01:24:45] the last couple of years, I’ve seen somebody else. No. It’s fine. And a lot of the work that I do is it’s [01:24:50] that classic, you know, I’ve got a dentist, and I just want you to do the thing that you that you [01:24:55] do. So they often aren’t with me for a very long time. Sometimes they end up sort of staying, and they want [01:25:00] to see you. Um, you know, they’ve found you specifically for the thing, but, um. Yeah, [01:25:05] it’s not as though I’m, I’m reliant on a big, solid [01:25:10] list of patients, but but I am reliant on the, the turnover of new ones that are coming in for [01:25:15] the, for the treatments. Um, so I do feel so. Yeah. So when we went to New [01:25:20] Zealand obviously that, you know, there’s obviously a lag, there’s always a, there’s always a lag as you, as you build up. Because even [01:25:25] coming back this time you see people and they’re needing you [01:25:30] know, they need the ortho first. They need to get that sorted out first or get the. So these.

Payman Langroudi: Cases the ortho. [01:25:35]

Richard Lee: Uh, do a bit of Invisalign, but but you know, if it’s anything serious, it goes [01:25:40] off to the orthodontist. Um, so these patients, there’s [01:25:45] a lot of, you know, there might be six months or a year of stuff going on before I get to do my bit anyway. [01:25:50] So there’s always that sort of lag. But now we’re kind of through that and it’s, you know, and we’re very busy [01:25:55] again. Um, so yeah, I feel, I feel comfortable and that, [01:26:00] that yeah, they, you know, they come and see.

Payman Langroudi: Another feature of Super Associates [01:26:05] is that they can kind of negotiate better terms with, uh, practices. [01:26:10] Do you do that? Do you, do you, do you go in saying I am Richard Lee? [01:26:15]

Richard Lee: Um, I do, um.

Payman Langroudi: What do you not.

Richard Lee: I [01:26:20] mean, the business is the business at the end of the day, isn’t it? There’s overheads and there’s everything else. So there’s [01:26:25] only a limited wiggle room within that. So, yeah, there’s always a bit of negotiation. [01:26:30] Um, so that’s. Yeah, there’s, there’s always a bit of chat around that, but, [01:26:35] uh, but I don’t go in with a crazy sort of, you know.

Payman Langroudi: And you get referrals. You must do.

Richard Lee: So. So [01:26:40] what’s worked really well for me with Bupa is that, um, before, again, before we left New Zealand, I’d say 90% [01:26:45] of the patients I’d see were referrals. Um, yeah. So, um, which [01:26:50] is great. So again, with Bupa, because there’s lots of practices around and there’s lots of people [01:26:55] doing different things, but not necessarily wanting to do the things that that I do. So I’ll get lots of internal referrals [01:27:00] within Bupa. Then there’s the external referrals, then there’s the self-referrals of the patients. So that that works really well for [01:27:05] me. Um, so I yeah, there’s lots of people who are referring who used [01:27:10] to refer to me, who are now referring to me again. So that’s that’s really nice. And it’s nice, it’s a nice thing [01:27:15] to be able to, you know, to treat these.

Payman Langroudi: People. Of course. Mark. Ellen. Yeah.

Richard Lee: I heard [01:27:20] him on this. Yeah, yeah. It’s interesting. Yeah. I thought you spoke really well. He was a really nice guy. Yeah, [01:27:25] yeah, yeah. They had, um, they had a Bupa live thing, uh, in Wales. In Wales. [01:27:30]

Payman Langroudi: Did you go?

Richard Lee: No I couldn’t, I.

Payman Langroudi: Heard it was amazing.

Richard Lee: It was um. Yeah. They had they had a few good speakers, [01:27:35] didn’t they? Um, but it was, uh, little boy’s, uh, party weekend. Birthday [01:27:40] party. So, uh, so I couldn’t go, but no Mark Allen. And I’ve not met him in In the Flesh, but I liked. [01:27:45] I like what he said. It was it was good, but it was an interesting one I do. They’ve been good to me. Um, [01:27:50] I think it’s, uh, as I say, Devonshire Square for years and now and now [01:27:55] at, um, at Bank. Um, I’ve. Yeah, they sort [01:28:00] of. They look. They look after me.

Payman Langroudi: Um, let’s get to the darker parts of the board. I [01:28:05] kind of like the question of your [01:28:10] darkest day professionally, which felt. Which one [01:28:15] felt like that?

Richard Lee: Goodness. I [01:28:25] don’t know whether I’ve had a dark, um. I mean, [01:28:30] we all have ups and downs. Um, whether there’s one specific day that was [01:28:35] way darker than all the others and stands out for its blackness, that was so [01:28:40] bad. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Did you never get sued?

Richard Lee: No. Luckily. [01:28:45] Touch wood. I’ve never. I think we’ve all had a letter at some point, but my last letter [01:28:50] was about 15 years ago. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Your most difficult [01:28:55] patient. Was that the one that you mentioned?

Richard Lee: No, that’s not even that one. I, um, [01:29:00] I think you see, again, going back to referrals, people refer stuff to me that it’s either difficult, [01:29:05] difficult cases, so complex cosmetic cases or difficult [01:29:10] patients or the combination of the two. Um, so they all [01:29:15] not they all but but there’s many of them that are, that are perhaps need careful handling. [01:29:20] But I think I’m quite good at that. That’s probably like what. You know, one of the reasons that that that [01:29:25] works for me.

Payman Langroudi: Although you’ve also been pre-sold by the referrer. Right. You’re you’re in a position of advantage. [01:29:30]

Richard Lee: Very much so. They come in sort of, you know, sort of I’ve been told that you’re, [01:29:35] you know, so that’s a nice that’s a nice position to, to to to be in. Um. [01:29:40]

Payman Langroudi: But the most difficult patient doesn’t come to mind.

Richard Lee: Not off the top of my head. No. I’ve [01:29:45] been fortunate that, um. Let me have a little think about about that there. [01:29:50] I’m old enough to to say try. And [01:29:55] you can usually spot things where a thing. You think things might go south quite quickly. [01:30:00] Um, so I try and be quite circumspect to that and say. And it’s more difficult when you’re quiet. [01:30:05] You know, you tend to just kind of like, you know, you just see patients. I think when you’re very busy, it’s much [01:30:10] easier to say, to say no to things. Um, and you’re, you’re perhaps more, more [01:30:15] risk averse.

Payman Langroudi: Well, let’s get to our more traditional question then.

Richard Lee: I’d love to think about the other.

Payman Langroudi: Ones when [01:30:20] we talk about your biggest clinical error. What? What comes [01:30:25] to mind?

Richard Lee: Um. Again. Fortunately, [01:30:30] there’s been many years, I think, since I’ve had a big clinical error. I don’t, you know, um, [01:30:35] everything was probably in the first couple of years of qualification. It’s the things you only do once, you [01:30:40] know. So it’s. I’ve anaesthetised [01:30:45] the wrong side.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve done.

Richard Lee: That. Yeah. I mean, everyone does that, don’t they. Don’t they. [01:30:50]

Payman Langroudi: There’s a dyslexia in it.

Richard Lee: Well it’s you know again a busy [01:30:55] NHS list. You’re seeing 30, 35 patients and you think you’re perhaps treating the lower right seven year, you [01:31:00] know, and, and and there’s a moment you realise, you know and it’s it’s [01:31:05] embarrassing. You know, you’ve numbed the patient up.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve drilled the wrong side.

Richard Lee: Okay. I haven’t [01:31:10] drilled the wrong side, but it’s, it’s you numb them up and I’ve realised because you’re looking at the [01:31:15] wrong thing and you and I find with any of these things, the best thing [01:31:20] you can be is just really honest and really apologetic and, you know, [01:31:25] sit them up and I’d say.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t there a bigger mistake than that?

Richard Lee: We’re [01:31:30] taking the wrong tooth out, you mean?

Payman Langroudi: Well, I don’t know.

Richard Lee: Oh, for me? Me? I’ve [01:31:35] managed to put the apices of roots into an antrum.

Payman Langroudi: That was nothing [01:31:40] you can do about that, right? I mean, there’s no learning point there.

Richard Lee: No, I don’t do surgical [01:31:45] extractions.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, but still, you know, I feel like that’s a random event. [01:31:50]

Richard Lee: Okay. I mean, it’s. Yeah, I certainly don’t like doing big surgical extractions. Um, [01:31:55] a big clinical error. I [01:32:00] mean, honestly, I’m not. But but there’s [01:32:05] there’s been an unfortunate I think that there’s not been anything. I [01:32:10] don’t think huge and awful and terrible and involve letters backwards and forwards [01:32:15] and and that sort of thing.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, look, you’re Richard Lee, right? One of the most experienced dentists in the country. [01:32:20] What does experience mean? Errors.

Richard Lee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s talk about some of those errors [01:32:25] that gave you the experience to be one of the most experienced dentists in the country? [01:32:30]

Richard Lee: I think.

Payman Langroudi: I think.

Richard Lee: It depends how we define an error, though, doesn’t it? Because if you.

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t have to be a it doesn’t [01:32:35] have to be a juicy one. It just, you know.

Richard Lee: I’ve, you know, I’ve, I’ve placed stuff [01:32:40] that you on, you know, on review of an ear or a composite that you, [01:32:45] you know, don’t like the colour or you don’t like the, you know, you’ve got to go in and do sort of remedial [01:32:50] work and go in and adjust it. But I think that’s within the because of the [01:32:55] patients told that’s probably going to happen anyway. You know when you come, if it’s composite you’re going to come back. For me, [01:33:00] I have to say it’s it’s not uncommon that I will adjust things when they [01:33:05] come back. I’ll always see them for review and just and they’re told that’s going to happen, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Um, see [01:33:10] that’s interesting. I was talking to, you know, Sandra Garcia. Yes. And [01:33:15] she was saying the from the under-promise and overdeliver perspective, [01:33:20] she’ll tell most patients that there’ll be several adjustments [01:33:25] and probably a remake at the very beginning.

Richard Lee: I certainly will for a single central. [01:33:30] That, that that’s my.

Payman Langroudi: Her big tip was to say that to everyone, so that everyone feels lucky [01:33:35] when it doesn’t happen, whatever that sort of thing. But then Sam Jethwa, who does [01:33:40] similar treatment modalities. Yeah, quite the opposite. The way he [01:33:45] thinks of it. Yeah. He wants to like, get it absolutely right in the temporaries [01:33:50] he sells that as his value add.

Richard Lee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, and so [01:33:55] the same procedure. Two totally different ways of talking to patients about it.

Richard Lee: I [01:34:00] think I’m more Sam than than Sandra for that. In terms of indirect, I don’t want to stick anything in [01:34:05] until someone’s given me the big fat thumbs up on those on those provisionals, because how [01:34:10] do you how do.

Payman Langroudi: You had a patient go home after they’ve said it’s all amazing? And then family members [01:34:15] said something in their back?

Richard Lee: I have in composite. So we had a [01:34:20] patient who, She wanted, I [01:34:25] think, in her words, bigger, squarer, more Hollywood teeth. And, um, and she did have relatively, [01:34:30] I think, almost reversed smile line on those anterior four. So we did it with injection [01:34:35] moulding and we, we made them longer and squarer. And she loved it. You know, [01:34:40] she said that’s exactly what I wanted. That’s great. Next day, phone call. Um, [01:34:45] they’re too big. They’re too. They’re two square. They’re two. Okay. You know. [01:34:50] Great. It’s composite. We can adjust this. Not a problem. Just it away. That was. And that happened. [01:34:55] And then. Yep. Fine. Happy. Great. Off again. Back.

Payman Langroudi: How many times? [01:35:00] Many times.

Richard Lee: About four.

Payman Langroudi: But.

Richard Lee: But by the end of it, they were the same length than when we started. [01:35:05] You know, and and I said that, you know, it’s like we’re pretty much down to tooth now, you know, you are pretty much back [01:35:10] to where you started. So, you know, we I read back the notes from my first appointment said, you know, [01:35:15] you wanted this to be like this. This is what we’ve, we’ve done, um, Um, [01:35:20] and we’re adjusting it. Adjusting, which I don’t mind. I’m happy to adjust it, but but now we’re kind of back [01:35:25] to where you want. So what do you want? You know, I’m happy to. And again, it’s I’m not criticising the patient. It’s [01:35:30] just. What do you want?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You’re at that impasse.

Richard Lee: Yeah. Yeah. Where do you want to go with this? Um, [01:35:35] and then that was the last adjustment, and then we didn’t we didn’t see her again. So, um, but in [01:35:40] terms of porcelain, uh, okay. So this is an interesting one. So lovely. Lovely patient. [01:35:45] And she had, um. Oh, she’s missing a couple of [01:35:50] teeth, but things have moved around a bit. And gaps, young girl, and [01:35:55] wanted to have things closed up and made it look nicer and better. So it’s going to be porcelain restorations, uh, [01:36:00] veneers. So we did our usual [01:36:05] diagnostic procedures, and she had, you know, wax up and we had temporaries on. Really [01:36:10] happy with the temporaries. And she had an extended period in the temporaries. It was probably a few months, actually, which is much longer than [01:36:15] I normally spend. Was this Covid? I’m not sure. I think it was, but there was some reason I can’t remember why. Why she was in temporary [01:36:20] for so long, and we did adjust them a few times. Um, she gave us a big thumbs up. [01:36:25] All good. Happy? Yes. Everything back. Try it all in. Happy? Yes. Bonded. [01:36:30] All in. Um. But she then came back and said [01:36:35] I. They just. I don’t like this tooth like this. And it was a combination [01:36:40] of things. I think she felt one of the teeth was too wide or too. I can’t remember what it was now, but she was [01:36:45] lovely about it. She could not have been nicer. She said, I’m so sorry. She said, I know, you know. I [01:36:50] said the other one was fine, I agree, and this is on me. She said, I know, um, and [01:36:55] we’ve been tweaking these teeth for a few years now. We just, [01:37:00] we just she comes in and like, she’ll go.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just part of the part of the week.

Richard Lee: It’s [01:37:05] just, you know, I just think. And I go, look, you know, it’s porcelain. We can’t really be adjusting it. [01:37:10] It’s, you know, it’s likely to potentially crack and fracture and break. And she’s so apologetic and lovely. [01:37:15] But also, I know that we went through the steps that, you know, but [01:37:20] I am very aware. So I will sit the patient up in the chair. You know, we’ll do the dry try [01:37:25] and we’ll do, we’ll put, try and paste in. We’ll sit them up. I’ll get a 5500 [01:37:30] Kelvin light on there so they can, you know, proper light spin as long as you want with the [01:37:35] mirror. And I will say to them that because when, when they’re bonded in, um, they’re [01:37:40] not coming off with this, that, that that’s it. Because I have, I have bonded them in before. [01:37:45] Um, it’s actually so all these things are coming back to me now.

Payman Langroudi: These are these are good [01:37:50] stories.

Richard Lee: So, um, again, another lovely, lovely, patient, long standing patient. And we’ve done composite [01:37:55] veneers on her. About ten years ago, we were swapping them out for porcelain. And again, temporaries. [01:38:00] All fine. All good. Um, put porcelain ones in. Approved. All good. [01:38:05] Came back and there was just a little bit too much [01:38:10] realism in them for her. So there was just I mean, they looked exactly like hollow as they were so [01:38:15] beautiful. But she wanted a slightly more uniform look [01:38:20] and, um, and she felt that the sort of the texture [01:38:25] was a bit over texturised compared to the temporaries, which I, I can get on board with that because [01:38:30] they were slightly, slightly more textured. Um, and I cut them off and redid them. [01:38:35] That was not that long ago. Um, just the front for, um, because [01:38:40] she was genuine. I could see it. You talked about before, [01:38:45] you know, I said, yeah, you know, I, I agree. There there. Um, I can see what you’re saying. [01:38:50] Obviously we’ve tried them, but yeah, the realism that’s in them obviously isn’t [01:38:55] in the temporary ones. And it is difficult at trying for patients to you know. [01:39:00]

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting point here that if there was a failure there, it was a communication failure [01:39:05] when the temporaries went on.

Richard Lee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Richard Lee: It’s it’s that extra bit of attention [01:39:10] and I that’s why with the Temporaries, I want the architecture to be spot on [01:39:15] like so. They shouldn’t be really looking at the shape when I try, when I when I try the porcelain, the final ones in [01:39:20] because the shape should just be a copy. Yeah, I don’t want the brain to go to the shape because that’s using up [01:39:25] too much. I want them to be looking at other stuff. Um, so that’s why I want to dial in that [01:39:30] architecture and the length and the, you know, everything. So there shouldn’t be any question about that. It’s just [01:39:35] then the other stuff that they should be checking, you know, so [01:39:40] it is just, you know, it’s one of those things just happens every so often. And she’s lovely and she’s such a nice patient. And [01:39:45] I’m like, yeah, I’ll redo those. That’s, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: That’s part of the process. Right? That’s part of the process. [01:39:50]

Richard Lee: And she’s super happy and she’s so happy now she tells me how much she loves them and you know, and [01:39:55] I was like, yeah, cool. That’s you know, done that. That’s fine. So it’s funny isn’t it. Because [01:40:00] failure you, you kind of think of as generally having [01:40:05] a bad outcome, you know. And I think it’s often like all these things, it depends [01:40:10] on how it’s managed and how it’s handled and the communication. Because if you get defensive, [01:40:15] I think if you get well, you you approve them, you know, and you get really sort of well, [01:40:20] they’ve paid a lot of money and they want to look how they look. And it’s not being unreasonable. You know, it’s just [01:40:25] um, and I want, I want genuinely want the patient to be happy. And I expect them to be happy. So if they’re not [01:40:30] happy, I find that more upsetting that they’re not that they’re not happy than me having [01:40:35] to do a bit of work to to sort it out.

Payman Langroudi: Of course, you know, the reason why I [01:40:40] in, in this pod tend to probe on dark days mistakes is because often [01:40:45] some of the best stuff comes out of those, you know, one of those things you look back on your [01:40:50] life.

Richard Lee: It’s it’s and I think they I think perhaps the, the reason I hadn’t [01:40:55] remembered a couple of those is because they didn’t have particularly bad outcomes. And I think because patients happy still [01:41:00] my patients I’m happy. So it’s a bit of extra work, but it’s I think the ones that you [01:41:05] think, you think that you remember are the stuff that you know, is the stuff that that haunts you slightly.

Payman Langroudi: Because how much do [01:41:10] you love it now, I’m sure. I’m sure you loved it a lot.

Richard Lee: I do. I still.

Payman Langroudi: Love it. You still [01:41:15] love.

Richard Lee: It. I still love it. There’s days when you don’t love it so much. You know? But that’s. That’s life, isn’t it? Um, I [01:41:20] do. It is a bit of a hobby. Um, I do enjoy it.

Payman Langroudi: What would you do if you weren’t [01:41:25] a dentist? Like something artistic?

Richard Lee: Yeah, I don’t I genuinely don’t know. Um, [01:41:30] because I fell into this and I didn’t really have a clear idea, um, what it would have been before that, but. [01:41:35] Yeah, maybe. Um, I remember doing work experience as a graphic designer as well at school. [01:41:40]

Payman Langroudi: So it’s the funny thing is that you could say, hey, I’d be an architect, but neither of us know what it’s like to be an [01:41:45] architect. Yeah, absolutely. The realities of it. I mean, I don’t know, it’s like.

Richard Lee: It’s like school [01:41:50] kid stuff, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Richard Lee: Want to be a footballer or an astronaut? I don’t, I don’t know. Um. Genuinely. [01:41:55] Genuinely not. I feel really fortunate and privileged to have had this career. Um, and that’s [01:42:00] what going right back to the beginning of Dave Thomas, the guy that I did the work experience with. He [01:42:05] said to me, I remember clearly, he said dentistry. And he’s like, it was nearly retiring, he said. It’s been [01:42:10] really good to me. He said. It’s just been a really good profession. I’ve enjoyed it. It’s given me standing [01:42:15] in my community and I’ve just really. It’s been good to me and I feel I [01:42:20] feel really privileged to. To have done it. I don’t know, I’m not I’m not retiring [01:42:25] yet. I’ve got ages. Um, but I do feel very privileged that people come and see me and [01:42:30] that I enjoy what I feel very fortunate. I enjoy what I do, um, and [01:42:35] that I can do it to a level that I think, you know, makes people happy. So, yeah, [01:42:40] it’s it’s a good thing to do.

Payman Langroudi: But if I dropped $1 billion in your lap, what [01:42:45] would you do with your life? Obviously, a lot of diving, a lot of diving.

Richard Lee: I’ve taught here. [01:42:50] I was talking to someone about this the other day, I think because if [01:42:55] you just stop that way, madness lies. I think initially. So I think I [01:43:00] enjoy it. But what I do for the first year is I probably go on [01:43:05] loads of courses. There’s loads of courses. Um, all the courses. I [01:43:10] think I’d quite like to, because I love courses and that. And that really gets you excited and fired up. Um, [01:43:15] and then just see. But I mean, a billion, a billion is a lot. But, but but I think, [01:43:20] you know, you need.

Payman Langroudi: To say, look, if you had a week, a weekend day to yourself, family [01:43:25] were away or something, what would you do?

Richard Lee: Uh, [01:43:30] that’s a that’s an even harder one, isn’t it? Because, uh, I remember when.

Payman Langroudi: I have the billion. Yeah.

Richard Lee: Well, [01:43:35] when, when, uh, when, uh, our eldest was about 18 [01:43:40] months. Um, Sherry took him back to New Zealand just for a couple of weeks just to see the family. And [01:43:45] that’s the first time for ages I’d been on my own in the house, and I didn’t know what to do. For the first hour, I was standing up. [01:43:50] I was sitting down, I put the kettle on. I didn’t make the tea. I was just because you just you’re so used to sort of just doing all [01:43:55] the things that you that you do. Um, I don’t know, I am if I get a chance [01:44:00] to sort of get. So I’ll go with a one of my really good mates who lives in London, a [01:44:05] school Schoolfriend, and we’ll often go for a walking weekend. We’ll go down to the south coast, walk, [01:44:10] and then find a pub and sit in there for several hours and maybe watch some football. And [01:44:15] that’s really nice. It’s funny because people ask about New Zealand and about because New Zealand [01:44:20] is very outdoorsy. Yeah, and I thought I was outdoorsy, but I’m not New [01:44:25] Zealand outdoorsy. So like I like a nice walk with a pub. They like to more like kill like hunt [01:44:30] and fish and.

Payman Langroudi: You.

Richard Lee: Know, kind of do that, that sort of.

Payman Langroudi: Thing with skiing. Yeah.

Richard Lee: Yeah. Okay. [01:44:35]

Payman Langroudi: I like skiing, but yeah, I want cappuccinos in the middle [01:44:40] of it. I want good lunch.

Richard Lee: It’s the stuff around it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. No, I definitely don’t want to wake up 6 [01:44:45] a.m. and ski my ass off and miss lunch and and then go to bed early, which is what a lot [01:44:50] of people do in skiing.

Richard Lee: Some people like the. Yeah, again, the purity of that and others.

Payman Langroudi: Like.

Richard Lee: The, the stuff. [01:44:55]

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t feel like a holiday at all to me.

Richard Lee: No, no I don’t, I don’t ski, but [01:45:00] um, I, yeah I imagine I yeah, I like the stuff I haven’t dived again for. I need to go into diving [01:45:05] as well.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you haven’t for a while.

Richard Lee: Not for about ten years.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Richard Lee: I know, so. Other kids are small. It’s always a bit awkward, but [01:45:10] actually we’re off to Egypt next week, so we might. I might actually get wet for the first time in [01:45:15] a while. That would be good.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s end it with our usual questions.

Richard Lee: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy dinner party [01:45:20] guests.

Richard Lee: Yeah, really struggle with this one. Um, so [01:45:25] this is what I thought. Um, you want your dinner party to [01:45:30] be fun? You know, it’s going to be out loud because I know some people sort of go for the whole, you know, I don’t know, Barack [01:45:35] Obama. And they want sort of, you know, kind of like to be enlightened and all that sort of stuff. No, [01:45:40] I just want a bit of a laugh. So I’m going with Rik Mayall. Oh, great. Okay. I love, I [01:45:45] love Rik Mayall Rik genuinely heartbroken the day that he, that he died. Um, [01:45:50] so he was a massive part of, um, us.

Payman Langroudi: Our generation.

Richard Lee: Growing up. Yeah. You know, [01:45:55] all, all the programmes. So, um, so I love him. He’d just be hilarious. Um, and [01:46:00] then I need a bit of music as well. So I’m going to go with [01:46:05] Paul McCartney, who I just think is I mean, I know this one goes a bit tragic now, [01:46:10] but what a legend. So he was all done with the Beatles by the time he was 27. [01:46:15] That was done. That was finished, he wrote yesterday when he was 22.

Payman Langroudi: Is that.

Richard Lee: Right? I mean.

Payman Langroudi: 27. [01:46:20] The Beatles were over. I didn’t know that. Done.

Richard Lee: How interesting that [01:46:25] to be the biggest band in the world. One of the most influential bands, pop bands of all time. And you’re [01:46:30] 27 and that’s behind you. How interesting. And then you still carry on. But yeah. And I think [01:46:35] he’s got so many great stories, you know. So I think I think yeah. So [01:46:40] who’ve we got. We’ve got um, Rik Mayall um, Paul McCartney [01:46:45] and I think I’m going to go for, um, Bob Mortimer is the thing.

Payman Langroudi: Bob [01:46:50] Mortimer, the comedian. Yeah. Oh yeah. He’s cool.

Richard Lee: So he does. They’ve gone fishing with Paul Weiss. But for years [01:46:55] I loved again, it’s a generational thing. Uh, Vic Reeves big night out. Yeah, you see it [01:47:00] live and stuff. And I always love Bob Mortimer and I just think he’s a he’s [01:47:05] just a really funny, nice guy. And I think he sort of ground everybody else. So, um, [01:47:10] those are my those are my three. I think they gel quite well as well.

Payman Langroudi: Never had any of those [01:47:15] three, which is good.

Richard Lee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Which is good. Not, not not the cliche choices.

Richard Lee: It’s not enlightened. Haven’t got [01:47:20] Einstein and I haven’t got, you know, Mandela and I haven’t got any of that. We’ve just we’ve just.

Payman Langroudi: Gone for the Queen.

Richard Lee: We’ve [01:47:25] just gone for giggles and music. It’s basically what what we’re going for.

Payman Langroudi: Final question [01:47:30] is a deathbed question. Oh, yes. Three pieces of advice for your loved ones, for [01:47:35] the world.

Richard Lee: For the world.

Payman Langroudi: On your deathbed, what would they be?

Richard Lee: Um, I found this quite hard as well, because I don’t [01:47:40] I don’t give much advice, I don’t think, but, um, I do [01:47:45] like the the Theodore Roosevelt quote of, um, comparison [01:47:50] is the thief of joy.

Payman Langroudi: Is that Theodore Roosevelt? I didn’t know that. Yeah, so I think [01:47:55] so true.

Richard Lee: I think that’s, um, a really big one. And I think particularly in the age [01:48:00] that we live in with social media and everybody showing their highlights reel of their life, um, [01:48:05] with dentistry as well, you know, we we’re all guilty. [01:48:10] Guilty of it. But you don’t put your, your bad stuff out there, you know. And I think [01:48:15] I get it as you look at people’s work and you feel a [01:48:20] bit rubbish about yourself, you know, and and it might not just be work, [01:48:25] it might be their lifestyle or it might be their house or their car or their [01:48:30] whatever it is, they’re, you know, but the race is [01:48:35] is life is is long. Um, and that race really is only with your [01:48:40] self, you know, it’s not with other people because sometimes you’re doing really well and sometimes [01:48:45] you’re not doing really well. But trying to compare yourself to other people is just, is just pointless. [01:48:50] And I think it’s just the route to unhappiness. So I think just yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I fully [01:48:55] agree.

Richard Lee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Number two.

Richard Lee: Number two. Number [01:49:00] two is. Find something that you just really enjoy [01:49:05] doing. It’s a bit of a vague one, but just a passion. Do something that you, [01:49:10] that you, that you love.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think they’ll do to you that if you had gone down another [01:49:15] route, similarly, you’d end up loving that too?

Richard Lee: Maybe. I don’t know. [01:49:20]

Payman Langroudi: It’s similar. I mean, I do accept that you may not have been the right guy to sit in a be [01:49:25] a lawyer or something. Reading, reading law maybe.

Richard Lee: But but that but that might be. I’m not saying there’s one [01:49:30] thing for one for every person.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You’re just saying enjoy your enjoy your work.

Richard Lee: But get, get, get, get passionate about it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:49:35]

Richard Lee: You know, because if you’re not passionate about it, then what are you doing? You know, you’re just you’re just you’re just treading water and [01:49:40] it’s it’s it’s life.

Payman Langroudi: Most of your awake hours.

Richard Lee: Yeah. And life is life. [01:49:45] So that leads me on to the third one. You know that life is, as I say, it’s long in some ways, but [01:49:50] it goes quickly. You know, be be present. Be where you are right now [01:49:55] with, you know, your friends, people aren’t always there. So just I [01:50:00] think, be be thankful for what you have. You know, a lot of what you have [01:50:05] for most people is luck. We as a people, you know, we are amongst the world’s people, the most privileged. [01:50:10] Yeah, just just try and find gratitude and and and be [01:50:15] thankful and, you know, be nice to each other. Kids.

Payman Langroudi: Was that number three.

Richard Lee: You had [01:50:20] to know. I remember the first one. There was another one that I.

Payman Langroudi: Started insisting on a new one. I started [01:50:25] insisting on a new one because that question you can answer, you can say, I did this, so you should too. [01:50:30] Yeah, but I quite like the opposite side of it of I didn’t do this, [01:50:35] but you should like what a piece of advice like that. Like classically go [01:50:40] to the gym more. Yeah.

Richard Lee: For me, I’d say I’d probably, if it was. What I didn’t do [01:50:45] was, um. I don’t take every [01:50:50] opportunity. I’m quite safe.

Payman Langroudi: It’s that scared of change Thing?

Richard Lee: I think [01:50:55] so. I think it’s kind of inherent within me that I tend to not I [01:51:00] worry or. Yeah. So I think risk averse. Yeah. I am quite risk averse.

Payman Langroudi: Why do you think. Do you know, do you [01:51:05] know why.

Richard Lee: Don’t know why. That’s probably a long conversation with a therapist I don’t know. Um, [01:51:10] no, I don’t know. But I am quite risk averse, and I tend [01:51:15] to, um, not want huge amounts of change. So. And I think and [01:51:20] that’s got probably more so as I’ve gotten older and I think, you know, if you say [01:51:25] yes to stuff, you don’t even know what’s going to happen. You know, it’s exciting stuff happens. I think I did that more that when I, when I was younger. But I think, yeah, just [01:51:30] stay. Oh my third one I’ve got it now I remember now. Be curious.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Richard Lee: Be curious. [01:51:35] Be curious about people, about things, about life. Most of the things that seem to go on these [01:51:40] days that are not good, are people who have set mindsets about other peoples [01:51:45] or other countries or other philosophies, and because they never [01:51:50] really were curious about why something is the way that it is. So just open minded. [01:51:55] Curiousness I think is a is a good cure to lots of the world.

Payman Langroudi: 100%. Um, it’s been a massive [01:52:00] pleasure, man.

Richard Lee: Thank you so.

Payman Langroudi: Much. I knew it would be. It’s been a pleasure having you. Thanks, man. Always learn from [01:52:05] you, man. Thank you very much.

Richard Lee: That’s very kind of you.

[VOICE]: This is [01:52:10] Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with [01:52:15] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:52:20] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:52:25] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a [01:52:30] huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and [01:52:35] what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get [01:52:40] some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this with [01:52:45] a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks. [01:52:50]

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system. [00:00:05] We try really hard. We’ve treated half a million patients in 11 countries. Now, if you want [00:00:10] to know what all the fuss is about, get yourself onto Enlighten online training. Enlighten online [00:00:15] training.com. Let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:20] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:25] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:00:30] Your hosts Payman [00:00:35] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome [00:00:40] Annie Seaborn onto the pod. Annie is a dentist who’s gone right [00:00:45] into the sports dentistry field, um, a lacrosse player [00:00:50] at national level and recently working in Bupa [00:00:55] as. What’s the official title?

Anni Seaborne: Head of general dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Head of general [00:01:00] dentistry. It’s a big title.

Anni Seaborne: It’s a big title.

Payman Langroudi: Did you feel good about getting that title? [00:01:05] It’s a big.

Anni Seaborne: Title. I definitely had imposter syndrome. It was even [00:01:10] applying for it at the beginning was a bit like, what am I doing? But then I was like, [00:01:15] you, you miss all the shots you don’t take. So I was like, well, go for it. Um. Why not? On [00:01:20] paper I was not qualified, but equally, I don’t think anyone who applied for it really was [00:01:25] that qualified for it because it was a business role.

Payman Langroudi: The training for that job was weird.

Anni Seaborne: So it’s definitely [00:01:30] a more business role rather than a clinical role. So even though it’s part of a wider group for [00:01:35] the clinical, um, what we call clinical clinical [00:01:40] advisory team advisory team is the word I’m looking for. Um, but we’re not [00:01:45] actually advising clinicians. We’re advising the kind of the corporate structure, the business people.

Payman Langroudi: About [00:01:50] the clinicians.

Anni Seaborne: Exactly. Being a voice for the clinicians.

Payman Langroudi: The link between the corporate structure and the clinicians. [00:01:55] Right, right. Right. Right, right. Um also graduated from the [00:02:00] best dental school in the country. Yes. Cardiff, which which we both [00:02:05] graduated from. Um, tell me about how you got into dentistry in the first place.

Anni Seaborne: How I got into dentistry. [00:02:10] Well, the reality was I didn’t want to be a dentist. Um, if I [00:02:15] had it my way, I would have done something to do with sports from the off. But, [00:02:20] um, I was quite good at sciences. My parents pushed me down that route. [00:02:25] Um, and then I looked at medicine, um, and [00:02:30] something that really captivated me was actually Max facts. So I did some work experience at down at [00:02:35] the Royal Surrey with the Max facts team, and they all said, if you’re going to do max facts, you [00:02:40] have to do the best way around would be dentistry first, then medicine. And that’s kind of what [00:02:45] got me into dentistry and looking at that. Okay. Um, so then I applied for dental school, [00:02:50] my fifth choice. Um, because, you know, you can only apply for four dental options, then one has to [00:02:55] be either was sports science, and I was a little bit disappointed when I got my results and found out I had been accepted [00:03:00] because I had to say no to going to bath to do sports science. Um, but [00:03:05] yeah, that’s how I basically got into dentistry was kind of a little bit of an accident, but also the Max Factor Consultants, [00:03:10] um, at Royal Surrey, basically telling me that was the easiest way around to get to Max [00:03:15] FACs.

Payman Langroudi: Did you grow up in Surrey?

Anni Seaborne: Yes. Uh, well, that was our base. Um, I actually grew up around the world. [00:03:20] So, yeah, my dad was an expat, um, worked in oil, so I kind [00:03:25] of grew up going to various countries and then ended up boarding school for secondary school. In [00:03:30] which.

Payman Langroudi: Countries did you live.

Anni Seaborne: In? Where did I live? In all sorts. Uh, Yemen. Nigeria. [00:03:35] Um, Azerbaijan. Mozambique. Those were the ones that I was [00:03:40] probably in. And then also my dad was also in Brazil, Trinidad. But most of that time I was at boarding.

Payman Langroudi: Whoa. [00:03:45] So boarding here.

Anni Seaborne: Boarding here? Yep. Boarding in Surrey.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [00:03:50] such an interesting way of growing up. Right?

Anni Seaborne: It was the best at the at the time. [00:03:55] I wanted to fit in. At the time, I wanted to stick in a school for more than two years. [00:04:00] Looking back on, it was the most privileged, amazing upbringing because.

Payman Langroudi: People [00:04:05] say changing schools as well as being super disruptive, makes you into the kind of person who can [00:04:10] talk to anyone, get on with anyone, because you’re kind of forced to do that again and again. [00:04:15] But then changing schools in lots of countries that must be like that must give [00:04:20] you superpowers.

Anni Seaborne: So I think the hardest bit was languages [00:04:25] because I was in like for example, Mozambique. I was English speaking [00:04:30] in a French speaking school in a Portuguese speaking country. Wow. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:04:35] I’m only there for a couple of years.

Anni Seaborne: I was only there for two years, 18 months, two years. So you just [00:04:40] have to adapt and just try your best. Um, and [00:04:45] yeah, you don’t realise I said at the at the time when you’re young. Also, I think you learn languages [00:04:50] quicker and you kind of are a little bit more you. You’re not worried [00:04:55] about what people think of you. So you’re happy to make mistakes and just fumble along with it. Um, [00:05:00] but yeah, I don’t think I quite realised how flexible I [00:05:05] had to be growing up, and actually how that probably has meant that I kind of am quite good at just fitting in in [00:05:10] different scenarios.

Payman Langroudi: And boarding school kind of gives you this sort of self-reliance muscle, [00:05:15] doesn’t it? I mean, the people I know who’ve been to boarding school, we had boarders in our school, but I [00:05:20] was a day to day kid. But people I know who’ve been to boarding school have this sort of almost [00:05:25] a very strong on the whole organisation and, and just being good at the [00:05:30] basics of life, you know. Is that correct?

Anni Seaborne: I would say so. You just have to get things done. You [00:05:35] have to find a way. And especially because my parents weren’t actually in the country for a lot of it, if you wanted [00:05:40] to do something, you just had to find a way to do it.

Payman Langroudi: You send your kid to boarding school.

Anni Seaborne: If I could afford [00:05:45] to. And they wanted to. Absolutely. Um, I wouldn’t force it upon. [00:05:50] And I know it’s not for everyone, but I had the best time of my life. Um, my partner also.

Payman Langroudi: Was. [00:05:55]

Anni Seaborne: A. He was at boarding school from age eight. Um, I’m not sure I’d do that. But equally, [00:06:00] as I said, if my child wanted to, and I was financially able [00:06:05] to, of course. Yeah, I thought it was honestly amazing. Also because I was I say this [00:06:10] I was an only child to my parents. My dad did have I have half siblings, but they were significantly [00:06:15] older than me. So growing up I was on my own. And I think when you are jumping around, it was nice to [00:06:20] have stability and nice to have friends and people around you. Um, so I think that [00:06:25] was a big part of why I really enjoyed it, but it did make me very independent. Um, [00:06:30] and growing up, like at university, I moved to university on my own. My parents didn’t come with me, um, [00:06:35] even though they were actually in the country. I think they just had other plans. But [00:06:40] I just got on the train to Cardiff with all my bags and then fumbled around, found my key to the [00:06:45] halls, and then, um, Amazing. And then, um.

Payman Langroudi: Did the sports kick in? In [00:06:50] school?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. Sports from a young age.

Payman Langroudi: And was it only lacrosse or [00:06:55] was it lacrosse?

Anni Seaborne: My original sport was swimming. That’s what my parents invested a lot [00:07:00] in. Lots of hours. Um, I then developed a chlorine allergy. Oh, wow. So [00:07:05] I was quite, um, went to quite a high level county nationals. [00:07:10] Um, but at a young age. So I say, like, it seems good, but really, [00:07:15] it was under 12. Under 13? Um, developed a chlorine allergy, so I had to step [00:07:20] away from that. We tried to do it on steroids and all of that, but my parents were like, this is just not [00:07:25] not worth it. Yeah. Um, and then just threw myself into any [00:07:30] and every sport, and lacrosse was the one that kind of stuck as such. And also my [00:07:35] school played it. They were very good. We were would go to nationals regularly, come like national finals [00:07:40] if not win as well. So um, I was in in a high performance environment from school [00:07:45] as well. But honestly, any sport, I would give it a go.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:07:50] So sports dentistry is a kind of thing that most people haven’t heard of. [00:07:55] When was the first time you heard of it properly? [00:08:00]

Anni Seaborne: As like an actual discipline? Not until I did my master’s, until I looked it up, but I did. Um, [00:08:05] I don’t know if you had this, but we didn’t get to go on elective at Cardiff. We had to do our final year project [00:08:10] like a dissertation.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I won’t.

Anni Seaborne: Elective elective. Well, they must [00:08:15] have got rid of it.

Payman Langroudi: I was in San Francisco for four months.

Anni Seaborne: I was in the library typing [00:08:20] out. Um, yeah. So we don’t get to go on elective. I don’t know if they’ve changed it again. Um, [00:08:25] but we had to do a final year project. We had to do a dissertation, and I actually did my dissertation [00:08:30] on head and neck trauma of lacrosse. And whether goggles like protective goggles, I [00:08:35] don’t know if you’ve seen them, um, should be mandated in the UK because they’re mandated in the US. Um, [00:08:40] so that was my kind of first thing accidentally, just because that’s what interested me, [00:08:45] and trying to find a supervisor was really hard. I kind of had a joint supervisor between Max [00:08:50] and PEDs, but even that, they were like, we’re not really sure what what you’re doing. Um, [00:08:55] I remember in my feedback that I got someone even wrote hockey like, and I was like, my whole dissertation [00:09:00] was on the cross, but okay. That’s funny. Um, but. So, yeah, [00:09:05] that was that was the first time I kind of looked into it. But as I said, I didn’t really know that it [00:09:10] existed. Um, and then and then I just saw on the Eastman website I was looking, I [00:09:15] think I was looking at composite courses or something like, um, restorative courses.

Anni Seaborne: And then I saw that [00:09:20] there was actually a sports dentistry, and initially it was a CPD certificate. And [00:09:25] then when I went back to check, um, they’d launched a master’s program. And [00:09:30] so I was like, this is perfect. This is everything that I want to do. Um, admittedly, [00:09:35] looking back on it, I probably went in a year too early because I was only, I think, two years out of uni at [00:09:40] this point. Um, so going on the course, it was a three years course and [00:09:45] a lot of it. I knew everything, but I didn’t have much experience in everything. And the other people on the course [00:09:50] were quite a lot older and more experienced in general clinical dentistry. So [00:09:55] there was a lot of things that I was kind of learning and being like, oh gosh, I’m not super comfortable [00:10:00] with this. It’s not part of my day to day practice. Yeah. Um, so [00:10:05] but yeah, that was that was basically the start of my sports dentistry journey. Unfortunately, [00:10:10] though, I think the course lost its funding actually. So it only managed three year cycles. So [00:10:15] the final cycle, um, I think imogen’s the final in the final [00:10:20] year group. And she’ll be graduating this year next year.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, who’s the Pascal [00:10:25] manager of sports dentistry? Is there someone like is it is it is there a department somewhere [00:10:30] that’s really good at it?

Anni Seaborne: Um, do you know it’s huge in Brazil?

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Anni Seaborne: Is it? And huge in Germany.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [00:10:35] Really.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. Big funding treatment. Lots of them that are doing it. America. [00:10:40] There’s quite a few people, but.

Payman Langroudi: So it exists outside of the UK.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, yeah. [00:10:45] There’s like an international WhatsApp group and there’s always buzz going on there.

Payman Langroudi: And so is [00:10:50] the goal of a sports dentist to be the dentist for a sports team or a sports player? Is that was that what that is [00:10:55] generally. Is that what people are after?

Anni Seaborne: Yes and no. Um, I’m [00:11:00] kind of looking at the bigger picture. Like I kind of want to make more of a difference and just. I’ll be honest, [00:11:05] I’ve ticked the boxes that I wanted to tick. My goal when I went on the course, I was like, oh, do you know what would be great? Would be great to be [00:11:10] the England rugby dentist. And I got there quite quickly, which was not my [00:11:15] plan. My plan that was like a 510 year work my way up. That’s how I that’s where I want to be. And [00:11:20] within a year, I think within two years of finishing my master’s, a year or [00:11:25] two. Yeah, I ended up getting that job and kind of running with it. I’m looking at the bigger picture, bigger [00:11:30] treating of athletes and actually taking it seriously, because I think a lot of people do think exactly that. It’s just like, oh, you work for a [00:11:35] sports team. And actually it’s a whole process as a whole, almost patient demographic. So [00:11:40] it’s the whole cycle. Seasonal cycle. So from pre-season to it.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:11:45] let’s.

Anni Seaborne: Start.

Payman Langroudi: With let’s start with that ambition of becoming the. So it tends to in my experience [00:11:50] it tends to be people dentists who love a sport. Yeah. Want to hang with.

Anni Seaborne: They want [00:11:55] to hang. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And and so but day to day what does it entail? Because one [00:12:00] of my best friends, he. He was the dentist for Chelsea. And I was sort of saying [00:12:05] the same thing to him. I was saying, you just want to hang with these players, right? That’s what it is. And then he said something about, [00:12:10] look, that player is being paid £200,000 a week to play football. If [00:12:15] he’s got toothache, the club needs to to pin that on someone. These [00:12:20] are large amounts of money. So if the club provides a dentist for that guy, he’s got no excuse [00:12:25] to have toothache. And I thought, oh, God, it’s like a whole more serious, like, business case for it in [00:12:30] football, I guess.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what does it entail being the [00:12:35] rugby team’s dentist. Do you go to every game? Is that what happens?

Anni Seaborne: No, I mean story. [00:12:40] Yeah. Lots of traumas that you see, especially with rugby. Um, I’ve done a [00:12:45] couple of pitchside. I’ll be honest. I just sit there in the cold and as glamorous [00:12:50] as you think it’s going to be, um, when you’re properly pitchside, you’re on a plastic chair or maybe in [00:12:55] the dugout. Um, you’re at ground level, so you don’t even get [00:13:00] a good view of the match. So it’s not like you get to watch the match and enjoy it. Um, if [00:13:05] I’m completely honest, it’s a little bit awkward for me in the changing rooms being female, and I work mostly with [00:13:10] male teams. Um, the other females are like physios. They’re strapping. I’m just stood [00:13:15] there in the changing room, so I’m not doing as much pitchside [00:13:20] stuff, at least with the clubs.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so. So then you’re the dentist that they advised [00:13:25] the team to go to?

Anni Seaborne: Exactly. But I’m also there at pre-season, so I go in. I [00:13:30] do not exams but screenings. So kind of just point them in the right direction. [00:13:35] Take scans, do their mouth guards education pieces, create a rapport with them [00:13:40] so that they actually come to the dentist? Because we we don’t want it to be reactive. We want to be proactive. And [00:13:45] then when we’ve got that baseline, we can then move to a more performance led kind of strategy [00:13:50] where you’re actually looking at enhancing performance, getting rid of inflammation, getting just [00:13:55] giving them kind of the best dentition. Because it’s crazy that you have these athletes [00:14:00] who like, look after everything and do ice baths and do all of that, [00:14:05] and yet their teeth have got rampant caries or gingivitis or whatever going on, and that’s all going [00:14:10] to affect their, their health. So that’s kind of the staging of it, is that you’re actually looking from a performance [00:14:15] point of view, but you’ve got to create that rapport and trust with them. And another thing that is when you [00:14:20] create that trust with them, they actually disclose a lot that they might not disclose to other medical [00:14:25] team members because you’re involved enough that they trust you, but not involved so much that you’re going [00:14:30] to affect the coaches decision.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Anni Seaborne: So I hear a lot about niggles or concerns [00:14:35] or there’s a big increase in use of snas and they’ll be [00:14:40] like oh I’m using this actually I’ve got a burn or I’ve had this niggle and I’m taking this [00:14:45] meds for it. Or can I ask an opinion on smoking or something like that. Yeah. Or can you look [00:14:50] at this lesion or do you know, people have asked me to look at kind of things on their bodies as well and be like, okay, I can’t [00:14:55] really give you medical advice here, but I can say whether, okay, you should probably get that checked [00:15:00] out.

Payman Langroudi: What a nuance. Like what a nuance that they can talk to you about something like [00:15:05] that and maybe don’t want to bring it up with the official team doctor or something. [00:15:10] You’d never think of something like that, would you?

Anni Seaborne: No, you don’t, and you’re in a privileged position. But you’ve got you’ve [00:15:15] got to earn it. You’re not. I said you don’t want to be reactive. And that’s really where sports dentistry comes into it, is that you [00:15:20] should be part of the medical team. Yes. You’re not going to have as much say as the physio, but [00:15:25] you you’re working with the team so have really strong relationships with the physiotherapist, with the lead doctors. [00:15:30]

Payman Langroudi: Um, and is there you’re kind of an elite athlete, right? Is there something [00:15:35] about elite athletes, athletes from the sugar intake perspective [00:15:40] or a huge.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or are they severe because they’re so, like [00:15:45] pushing themselves so hard like perfectionists? What patterns do you see amongst [00:15:50] elite?

Anni Seaborne: Honestly, they are one of the highest risk athletes for pretty much everything. Um, patients [00:15:55] of anything. So if you look at their diet, um, so if you pick [00:16:00] any athlete and you can look at different sports and they’ll have different risk factors. So if you look at a long distance [00:16:05] runner, they are going to be taking glucose gels or glucose drinks all the time. They’re [00:16:10] likely going to be dehydrated um, a lot of the time. So obviously less saliva flow. So they’re [00:16:15] not able to fight those sugars. Um, if it’s a preseason, they’ll be throwing up perhaps [00:16:20] a little bit more. If they’re perhaps in a weight category based, they’re going to be vomiting a lot more. So you’re going to [00:16:25] see erosion, um, if their power sport or certain positions. In rugby, for example, [00:16:30] the kickers. I find the fly halves tend to have to be bruxing, and actually it’s their clenching [00:16:35] as they’re creating the generating the power when they’re kicking, you [00:16:40] see. Yeah, it’s it’s honestly the, the lifestyle, [00:16:45] even though it’s meant to be the most healthy lifestyle is actually awful [00:16:50] for, um, oral health.

Payman Langroudi: You know, it’s like to be the best [00:16:55] at anything. It takes an unhealthy obsession.

Anni Seaborne: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t it? You [00:17:00] could decide to be the best composite guy in Europe. Yeah. That’s going to affect your [00:17:05] life somehow. Yes. You know what I mean? Like it’s obsession. Obsession [00:17:10] does that. Everything else gets pushed aside for the for the one goal.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. And it’s finding [00:17:15] that balance because there are some people that you’re, it’s I’m not going to turn round and tell [00:17:20] an Ironman athlete to stop having glucose gels. Like obviously not. It’s finding a balance [00:17:25] between making sure that they’re getting the right supplements and energy, but also without [00:17:30] damaging their teeth. And it’s working with the sports nutritionists and the medical team to be like, okay, [00:17:35] if they’re doing I don’t know if Iron Man, if they do five K runs, if that’s literally just a warm up, but [00:17:40] if they’re doing A5K run, maybe you don’t need that energy gel. If you’re doing less than an hour [00:17:45] run up and saying like, I know you want to plan for the race, but [00:17:50] for certain, for certain training runs, don’t use those. Or just make sure you’re being [00:17:55] hydrated or perhaps use during that. Just prescribe some fat to help. Um, [00:18:00] and it’s also having that conversation when, um, once again, it comes back to that relationship [00:18:05] is those athletes who are in weight category may have eating disorders and things like that. You might be the [00:18:10] person that they feel comfortable to have a relationship have the conversation with. Because actually, once again, [00:18:15] their doctor is going to be the one that’s going to pull them out or talk to their coach. Whereas you can have a [00:18:20] conversation, you can spot it and say, look, you’re damaging your teeth. I know there’s something bigger going on. Really? [00:18:25] If someone’s got an eating disorder. Teeth are the least of the worries. But you can be [00:18:30] the one to have that conversation. Um, so yeah, honestly, athletes [00:18:35] teeth are shocking.

Payman Langroudi: And to get their trust. Does it. Do you have to be into [00:18:40] the sport?

Anni Seaborne: No, you have to. You have to know enough about the sport to understand. [00:18:45] And I think with any sport like I, um, recently started. Well, I say recently, a couple of years ago, I started [00:18:50] working in Formula One, and really, I knew nothing of it except that cars go round in a circle. Um, [00:18:55] and I knew who Michael Schumacher was and Lewis Hamilton, and that was the extent of it. You [00:19:00] have to know enough about the sport to be able to treat it appropriately and understand [00:19:05] the risk factors of it, but really, you’re part of the medical team. The [00:19:10] athletes don’t want a fan girl treating them. [00:19:15] They don’t want to be having photos. They want to be seeing a dentist. They want their [00:19:20] problem solving.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so that’s a good point.

Anni Seaborne: That’s. I think that’s probably [00:19:25] where I’ve excelled. So you I’ve never had a photo with a single athlete I’ve treated. [00:19:30] And that’s kind of my rule as such. Um, [00:19:35] that being said, I have done a commercial kind of link with one. [00:19:40] Um, but that was separate. And I said it wasn’t a personal photo. Um, and that was organised [00:19:45] separately. But I’m very much their dentist. I’m not going [00:19:50] to fangirl them and they don’t want that. And that’s how you create that rapport. It’s because they trust you. [00:19:55] Um, and they are just people at the end of the day and you realise that very, very quickly that [00:20:00] they just happen to be. Whilst our colleagues may be very good at composites, they happen to be very good at [00:20:05] football or very good at rugby. Um, they are just normal people and they want to be treated [00:20:10] like that. Um, and I think that’s a big thing in creating trust is [00:20:15] just treating them completely normal.

Payman Langroudi: I felt the same thing with celebrities, right?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, [00:20:20] it’s Is exactly that story.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what about. You know, I don’t know if you know anything about that. [00:20:25] I’m sure you do. That. Appliances that that enhance your performance. Is [00:20:30] that rubbish? Is that real? What is that?

Anni Seaborne: It’s real. But with limited, [00:20:35] um, research, as in, there needs to be more. There’s not enough research on it.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:20:40] do you believe there’s an appliance you can put in someone’s mouth and they run faster or whatever it is?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. So? So the studies [00:20:45] show increased power, um, increased speed, increased flexibility. It’s all about kind [00:20:50] of aligning your body musculature and all of that. Um, is [00:20:55] it. Well, it’s all about the 1%, but is it enough? And also it needs to be done consistently [00:21:00] with training our athletes, going to where I can barely get an athlete to wear a mouthguard like [00:21:05] a protective mouthguard. Are you going to get them to wear a splint? Um, I’ve had issues with I’ve tried [00:21:10] to approach teams to talk about it. Um, and there’s funding issues, whether they [00:21:15] kind of fully believe it because the research isn’t solid. So yeah, it’s a lot [00:21:20] of small kind of studies saying yes, it looks to be significant.

Payman Langroudi: But so what [00:21:25] are you doing increasing vertical. Like what is it. What.

Anni Seaborne: It’s just getting your jaw in the best position. [00:21:30] Kind of the most efficient position basically. Um to really align everything [00:21:35] and get your posture. It’s just but it’s that maintenance, isn’t it, of, um, [00:21:40] that posture. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So I guess a lot, a lot of sports.

Payman Langroudi: Dentistry is about [00:21:45] just the lifestyle bit around the dentistry itself. It’s [00:21:50] just regular dentistry on irregular people. Exactly.

Anni Seaborne: So nothing I do is revolutionary. [00:21:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: Um, I think I do a lot more trauma than the average dentist and probably [00:22:00] a lot more confident with dealing with trauma, but otherwise a lot of it is being [00:22:05] a PA to these. They honestly stupid time like stupid hours. [00:22:10] You get messages having to be accommodating to them, having to understand their sport to treatment [00:22:15] plan appropriately. So the way you may treatment plan a normal [00:22:20] kind of an accountant or finance person in the city versus how you treat treatment plan. [00:22:25] An athlete may be different based on their cycles. Are they in the middle of a World Cup? Are they at the beginning of the season? Are they [00:22:30] at the end of the season? Um, are they young? Are they going to do media duties? What, [00:22:35] like what’s going on in their life? Are they in the country or are they about to go abroad [00:22:40] or go travel the world? Do like with the formula one? Um, I do a lot of stuff on [00:22:45] call and then they have a little window, which basically just happening now where we try and get them in, sort [00:22:50] anything. And it’s a nightmare when anything happens mid-season, when I say I treat formula one, but I treat the whole team, so it’s [00:22:55] the whole race team behind the two drivers as well. Um, yeah. It’s [00:23:00] a nightmare being.

Payman Langroudi: Constantly around the world, right?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, exactly. So it would be [00:23:05] like one week there in Las Vegas and now they’ve just been, I think in Abu Dhabi, like [00:23:10] all over the place. Um, so it’s knowing when they’re going to be back. [00:23:15] And it’s right. Is that temporary filling going to last, or am I going to have to actually [00:23:20] do something a bit more permanent, even though it’s temporary? Um, because actually they’re going to be away for another [00:23:25] month. Um, so it’s a lot of kind of thinking laterally.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: And really, that’s [00:23:30] where you do need to say you don’t need to know the sport, but you need to know how the sport works.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:23:35] Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: And does it pay.

Payman Langroudi: Does it, does it pay more than regular. Like [00:23:40] how does it pay.

Anni Seaborne: I don’t go into it for the finances.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Anni Seaborne: No. [00:23:45] Um, you get paid basically like [00:23:50] a normal patient insurance payouts for trauma, um, and then [00:23:55] some. So sometimes I do the screenings for free, but then you get kind of [00:24:00] the patients in return. Um, occasionally I’ll get paid to go do the scanning and screening, [00:24:05] um, kind of a day rate to go out there. But it’s not it’s not a lucrative.

Payman Langroudi: Friends [00:24:10] and family of the people. Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: You And once again, that’s rapport building. So [00:24:15] yeah, I do lots of partners, family, the support team. Um, [00:24:20] you tend to be the go to person that they recommend, especially if you’ve been at a place for [00:24:25] a period of time.

Payman Langroudi: So is there a dental surgery somewhere that the rugby team has or [00:24:30] do they come to you?

Anni Seaborne: They just.

Payman Langroudi: Come.

Anni Seaborne: To me. Where? Literally wherever I am. So, [00:24:35] um, they’ll either I’m split between Surrey and London and [00:24:40] wherever I am and how urgently they need me. They will just turn up wherever I can. They [00:24:45] can be seen. And then I’ve got a good network of dentists I work with. So if I’m not in the country or anything like that, [00:24:50] I’ll then refer them for it if there is an emergency.

Payman Langroudi: And if and dentists abroad [00:24:55] I guess where I mean, for instance, for formula one, you’d better find a dentist in each of these towns.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. So [00:25:00] they tend to go. If it’s anything major, they’ll either go, they’ll they’ll call me for an opinion. [00:25:05] Um, and they’ll either go to the local dentist and sometimes I’ll be on the phone or they’ll [00:25:10] if it’s a trauma, they’ll go to the hospital and then they’ll just send everything [00:25:15] over to me to kind of manage and oversee. Um, but yeah, I’ve got there’s I said there’s [00:25:20] a good network of support as a WhatsApp group of sports dentists across the world. So I, I [00:25:25] know someone somewhere, but also the dental community is great. The amount of [00:25:30] times that you can just be like, do you know anyone? And someone’s going to know someone? Um, and everyone’s [00:25:35] always happy to help.

Payman Langroudi: At what stage.

Payman Langroudi: Did you get to Bupa? How [00:25:40] many years after you qualified? When? When did Bupa come into the picture?

Anni Seaborne: When did Bupa. So I [00:25:45] did. So qualified. Did my training year in Cardiff. I then locums [00:25:50] for six months and travelled for six months. Um, and then it was after that I moved [00:25:55] to London and I got a job at the Bupa in Chelsea. Um.

Payman Langroudi: My wife.

Anni Seaborne: Exactly. [00:26:00] Yeah. Um, so. Yeah. [00:26:05] So that was back in 20. He. When was that [00:26:10] been? 2018.

Payman Langroudi: And this this new move that you’ve made into the sort of the management [00:26:15] side, was that your first move in that direction?

Anni Seaborne: No, no. So, um, [00:26:20] I’ve done a couple of kind of corporate business stuff. So I [00:26:25] first, after my leukaemia, I joined Bupa and I had [00:26:30] a two day, two day a week job. And I’ll be honest, I wasn’t enjoying NHS life, [00:26:35] um, wasn’t enjoying my dentistry, had just come back from travelling. I was like, this isn’t [00:26:40] really what I want to do. Um, so did the classic go into facial do a facial aesthetics [00:26:45] course? Um, so did that. But then I made a decision. I was actually, I’m not going to dabble in this. I’m actually [00:26:50] going to join a facial aesthetics company. Um, so [00:26:55] I joined one who took me on just straight off the course. They trained me up, did internal training, and worked for [00:27:00] them three days a week. And then actually over the next year, I worked my way up to medical director of that company. [00:27:05] So we ran nine clinics in London. So by the age of I think 25 or 26, I was medical [00:27:10] director of this company. So I was working one day a week in the office and then injecting two days. So that’s [00:27:15] when I started to learn about everything business, about what EBITDA meant, what all [00:27:20] the marketing, everything that goes on in terms of running a business. Um, alongside this, [00:27:25] um, back in 2018, I also had a big injury, um, which actually kind of I didn’t [00:27:30] know at the time, but stopped my lacrosse career. I never quite made it back from it.

Anni Seaborne: Um, and so [00:27:35] I made a decision when they were, um, the Wales Lacrosse Board. So I played for Wales, and, um, [00:27:40] I applied to be a member of the board as an ordinary member. So that was also kind of a step [00:27:45] into learning how businesses and organisations are run. So I was [00:27:50] doing that. I did that for actually 3 or 4 years. So as part of the world lacrosse boards, I saw kind of the [00:27:55] how they said manage everything. Um, so unfortunately in Covid, [00:28:00] the aesthetics company I worked for got bought out by a larger company, which [00:28:05] I didn’t quite align with. Um, so made the decision to step away, go back into dentistry. [00:28:10] And this was also tying up with me having started my, um, well, I was already [00:28:15] mid sports dentistry masters, so I was like, I need to go back into dentistry if I’m going to be providing the service. I can’t just [00:28:20] do it on one and a half days a week. Um, so took actually, that was the [00:28:25] first time that I was probably doing full dentistry for a while. Um, [00:28:30] and yeah, and then this opportunity came up at the actually, it was about [00:28:35] September time last year. Um, they put out the adverts within Bupa [00:28:40] saying that we’re creating a new clinical advisory team, um, looking for a director of dentistry, [00:28:45] director of um, nursing and hygiene and therapy and. [00:28:50] Yeah, and that’s how it started.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a comfort, like a.

Payman Langroudi: Confident [00:28:55] person who does all that. Right? It’s very you got to be confident to say [00:29:00] right of the I don’t know how many 1600 dentists in Bupa. [00:29:05] I could be director of dentistry.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, there’s 2800. There you.

Payman Langroudi: Go. There you [00:29:10] go.

Anni Seaborne: I looked at it and as I said, I [00:29:15] wasn’t quite qualified to be it. But then I looked around and I was looking at what they were looking [00:29:20] for, and I was like, you could be a dentist for 30, 40 years and still not be qualified [00:29:25] for this job role because it isn’t a clinical role. Um, [00:29:30] and then I happened to read something in the, I think it was the Harvard Law Review [00:29:35] or something like that. And I say I read it, I think I saw it on TikTok or something like that, but [00:29:40] that was the source of it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: That’s where it originally came from. And [00:29:45] it was, um, something [00:29:50] like 98% of men will apply for a job there, only 60% qualified [00:29:55] for, but only like 60% of women would qualify for [00:30:00] a job there. 98% qualified for. So I was just like, well, do you know what? I [00:30:05] may as well apply. What’s the worst that can happen? That can happen. Um, I’ll get to learn [00:30:10] from the experience. Um, I had already some experience in [00:30:15] running a business. A much smaller one, nine smaller aesthetic chains. But [00:30:20] I was like, I potentially have more experience than some people. Um, in terms of this [00:30:25] business. I have big ideas. I have purpose. I wanted to change and [00:30:30] disrupt the industry. I’ve known that from the start. Um, and [00:30:35] I just thought, why not? I said, what the worst thing that happened is I’m doing the exact [00:30:40] same thing that I was doing already, and. Yeah, and then it was a long process. [00:30:45] It was a proper corporate interview thing. So there was a there was a talent day initially, and [00:30:50] then there was, um, we had to do a self-tape. Um, [00:30:55] and then we got invited, I think. What was the next process? We then [00:31:00] got invited to pitch an our pitch to the board, so I had to pitch to Mark Gallen, um, [00:31:05] the GM and Fezzan, who’s one of our regional clinical directors, and [00:31:10] we were given, I think, four days preparation and what the pitch was about. Um, and then I [00:31:15] had two further interviews.

Payman Langroudi: What did you say?

Anni Seaborne: Well, in the pitch, um, [00:31:20] I’m trying to remember what the question was. It was something like three things that you would change or what were the three [00:31:25] most important things would be to you? I’m trying to remember what I said. Um, one was definitely [00:31:30] nursing. I think was prioritising nursing because I think you can’t [00:31:35] do your job without a nurse, basically. And we need to respect them [00:31:40] more. Yeah. Um, I one of my big passion projects is eliminating [00:31:45] this hierarchy within dentistry. It’s. We just have different job roles. That’s all it is. We’re [00:31:50] one team working to the same goal, and we’re just different job roles. And we [00:31:55] are not better than nurses. We’re just doing a different job and we don’t appreciate [00:32:00] that enough. So that was one of my I think that’s the thing I led with. Um, [00:32:05] I’m trying to think what the other ones. One was high performance in general. [00:32:10] Um, so obviously coming from my sporting background, I personally think the whole Dental structure, [00:32:15] as it has been historically, is self self-employed associates. Once [00:32:20] again, this whole hierarchy thing is the opposite of high performance. If you were in a sports team, this [00:32:25] is not how you would operate. Um, and it’s just looking [00:32:30] at how you can restructure and re change the [00:32:35] kind of the dynamic and the culture.

Payman Langroudi: When we started this company, I [00:32:40] kind of had this touchy feely idea because back then it was like a Google was supposed [00:32:45] to be really like fun and, and, and and then I realised, I mean, [00:32:50] the sort of today’s way that people think about companies is pro sports team. [00:32:55] It is that. Yeah. You know, I used to think of the of the company as a family and [00:33:00] think that’s different. And it’s not a family. It’s not. Yeah. As much as by the way, [00:33:05] you know, your hygienist isn’t a rock star. You know, like, you know what [00:33:10] your hygiene is this whole thing about rock star. Rock star. It’s not a family. Yeah, [00:33:15] it’s not a family. As much as we like to feel it is. It is not. No. Yeah. [00:33:20] You can’t expel people from your family. No, you can’t bring people into your family. [00:33:25] Yeah. Business is more like a pro sports team. Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: And you’ve got to get the best [00:33:30] out of people. Exactly. You’ve got to create an environment that they can thrive. But equally, yes, you can’t, but [00:33:35] you don’t want deadweight.

Payman Langroudi: Well, my point is, if there are associates who are amazing team players, [00:33:40] then it’s it’s, you know, the idea that you have to get rid of the [00:33:45] self-employed thing. Yeah. To fix your problem might not be necessarily the case.

Anni Seaborne: That’s the thing. [00:33:50] I don’t think it’s a case of getting rid of the self-employed, But I think that inherently [00:33:55] creates.

Payman Langroudi: That created it in the first place.

Anni Seaborne: It allows a certain mindset. Um, [00:34:00] but I don’t think the answer is getting rid of that, but it’s trying to work out how can we make [00:34:05] everyone a great team player, when all they’ve known since they’ve graduated [00:34:10] is that you don’t have to be, or they’ve been allowed to not be.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so tell me you’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Been involved [00:34:15] in lots of sports teams.

Anni Seaborne: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Are there some that are toxic.

Anni Seaborne: Do [00:34:20] you know I.

Payman Langroudi: And some that are amazing. Like are there different cultures within different [00:34:25] sports teams. There are.

Anni Seaborne: Ones I personally as in as a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Or person.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve [00:34:30] got so much experience of teams. Right.

Anni Seaborne: Teams. Yeah. Um. Have [00:34:35] there been toxic? They they come in waves. I don’t think any team is perfect all the time. [00:34:40] And it will be change each season, and personnel will come [00:34:45] and go. Coaches come, go. And it changes how people react. And [00:34:50] I think the, the the difficult balance is giving everyone [00:34:55] a certain level of autonomy, making sure they’re empowered versus having too much of a voice. Mhm. [00:35:00] And you see this both at kind of business level and at [00:35:05] literally the sport level, is that you want everyone to be able to feel comfortable to say what’s on their [00:35:10] mind. But at no point do you want the team starting to overrule the coach [00:35:15] or having too much of an opinion that the coach’s voice is diminished a bit and there’s almost not that authority [00:35:20] with it? So I haven’t been part of what [00:35:25] we’d say a toxic team. But I’ve definitely seen highs where we’re really flying [00:35:30] and times where we’re drowning because and then everyone’s trying to fight for it and trying really [00:35:35] hard. But actually we’re not cohesive and it doesn’t [00:35:40] create, as said that that environment that we’re thriving in.

Payman Langroudi: So the parallels, [00:35:45] if you if we could sort of wave a magic wand and I introduce you to a [00:35:50] Russian billionaire who’s going to fund your chain of dental practices? Yeah. [00:35:55] The parallels that you’d bring over from from from sports. What would you change [00:36:00] if you could? I mean, look, Bupa amazing. What an amazing organisation. But changing anything [00:36:05] at Bupa is going to be very difficult. It’s a massive organisation.

Anni Seaborne: It’s massive.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an oil tanker. [00:36:10] Yeah. Let’s imagine you had this, this, this thing that you could just design from the ground up. What [00:36:15] would you do to get this like high performing dental [00:36:20] team?

Anni Seaborne: Priority would be the environment. [00:36:25] So creating practices that people are proud to work in is something [00:36:30] that I think is really important. Because you go, it’s your place of work. You go in day in, day out. It’s [00:36:35] your if your environment is nice and you’re proud of it, you’re going to want to do good work [00:36:40] and want to work hard to kind of stay in that place.

Payman Langroudi: Also a way [00:36:45] of for nurses to progress an easier way for I think the corporate actually it’s quite good [00:36:50] corporates. Great. Because we can become an area manager or something. It’s a, it’s a nice thing. Could [00:36:55] go all the way up. Right.

Anni Seaborne: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: If they really want to. But what else.

Anni Seaborne: What [00:37:00] else? If I could wave a magic wand. Um, creating more kind of learning opportunities. [00:37:05] I said for everyone, um, CPD in-house, basically [00:37:10] doing the courses.

Payman Langroudi: Um, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, I, we have this thing with enlightened where we [00:37:15] say, oh, listen, for one week, really focus on teeth whitening and do this, that and the other. And it’s [00:37:20] a bit of a complicated thing because they have to change the way they work. Right? And then I always make this [00:37:25] point about how to compensate for the fact that we’re now asking the receptionist [00:37:30] to do this, that and that. What can we do to make it much more fun to come to [00:37:35] work?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I’ve sat in hundreds of practices asked that [00:37:40] question, and everyone’s blank.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I and I [00:37:45] reflect on it and say it might be. The most important question that needs to be answered [00:37:50] is, how can you make work more fun for everyone? Yeah. And yet [00:37:55] nobody has an answer to. It’s almost like work and fun aren’t [00:38:00] allowed to be mentioned in the same sentence. Yeah. Maybe that’s part of it. Yeah. [00:38:05]

Anni Seaborne: I think it’s. Do you know what? That’s that’s the question I basically lead every practice visit with. [00:38:10] I say blue sky thinking. What was your what would your perfect day at work look like? [00:38:15] Ignoring the stereotypes of what a day at work looks like for a dentist. And [00:38:20] people are just like all I care about is my nurse turns up and my chair works. Like [00:38:25] that’s all people care about. That the day runs smoothly, [00:38:30] and it’s because we’re not exposed to that kind of other corporate side. Um, that it can [00:38:35] be so much more than that. And I don’t know what that looks like. Obviously, we’ve still got to have service provision. We’ve still got to be able [00:38:40] to look after the patients. Um. Um, but [00:38:45] yeah, that that is the feedback that I get when I, when I ask because I’m like, come on, let’s give me some good ideas. [00:38:50] What can we roll with? And honestly, every single person just says, as long as I can, [00:38:55] all I have to worry about is the clinical side of things. That’s a good day. I’m more than content. [00:39:00] Um.

Payman Langroudi: Sad, isn’t it?

Anni Seaborne: It is sad because, you see, and I’ve been exposed to [00:39:05] this other side of the corporate world, um, where you do have kind of fancier [00:39:10] dinners and public speaking and nice, um, kind [00:39:15] of entertainment. And I’m like, oh, it could. This is fun. [00:39:20] I remember the first day I went into shows how simple I am, but the first day I went into the Bupa head office [00:39:25] down in Burbank and I got to go to the canteen, and that was just I [00:39:30] was like, I can’t.

Payman Langroudi: Believe it’s not even.

Anni Seaborne: It’s not free, but.

Payman Langroudi: Subsidised.

Anni Seaborne: A whole meal for £2.50. [00:39:35] And I was like piling up my plates and the best cookies and all of this. And I was like, this [00:39:40] is amazing. I’m a simple gal, but it’s. But it’s things like [00:39:45] that and I’m like it. Can you. It’s a shame, actually, because [00:39:50] you are just in this little small local practice. And if a lot of people, they are very content with that. But it’s [00:39:55] trying to be like, how can we be different?

Payman Langroudi: What’s really a shame is that I don’t know, were you at the [00:40:00] we were just talking about at the, um, private dentistry awards? Yes. Yeah. Me too. And [00:40:05] these amazing innovations for patients. Yeah. Beautiful practices. Coffee [00:40:10] on demand. You know, like. Yeah. Wonderful things that we’re doing for our patients. And yet [00:40:15] the back end, it’s.

Anni Seaborne: What are we doing for.

Payman Langroudi: Very, very similar. It hasn’t changed that much. [00:40:20] Yes. It’s changed. It’s changed since my day. It has. Yeah. Um, where they used to heat up their [00:40:25] lunch and the autoclave or something ridiculous like that. Yeah. But certainly. But. But it hasn’t changed enough. [00:40:30] No. When you consider how much things have changed for patients. Painless injections, [00:40:35] you know, digital everything. Yeah. Beautiful waiting rooms. Listen to [00:40:40] music and watch movies while you’re having your treatment done. You know, we’re really on to trying to make [00:40:45] the patient experience much better. Some some people are, but the staff experience [00:40:50] is lacking. It’s lacking.

Anni Seaborne: It is. And my view [00:40:55] is if you can empower and engage the staff, that ultimately leads to [00:41:00] better performance, better overall engagement. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I think [00:41:05] look, with notable exceptions. Yeah, there are there are places where people have a great time and love there. Yeah. [00:41:10] Yeah. It exists. It exists. And I guess that’s your whole job right now. Right now to make it like that.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, [00:41:15] that’s what I’m trying.

Payman Langroudi: But but it’s a funny thing, [00:41:20] you know, especially in medical. We seem to, I don’t know. It feels like your, [00:41:25] uh, boyfriend’s a doctor.

Anni Seaborne: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: The sacrifice of [00:41:30] the medic, the sacrifice that they make. It’s almost a whole system is running [00:41:35] on that sacrifice.

Anni Seaborne: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Like if they did. If they. If they worked my my brother’s a doctor. [00:41:40] If he worked to the letter of his contract and everyone did and all the nurses did.

Anni Seaborne: It wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Run. The hospital [00:41:45] would just fall apart. Yeah. Like, why is that a thing? Why should it be like that?

Anni Seaborne: It’s [00:41:50] honestly the thing he. I know I’m probably biased, but he’s amazing. [00:41:55] He’s super intelligent, super hard working, really ambitious. Yet he’s [00:42:00] stuck in this system that doesn’t reward it at all. And he’s just service [00:42:05] provision. And he will do the extra hours and he will get to the [00:42:10] same end point at the same rate as the person next to him who has done the bare minimum. Um, [00:42:15] and it’s depressing. And he’s, he’s already looking at not not outs from the industry because he loves [00:42:20] he loves surgery. He absolutely adores when he’s actually operating. He’s an orthopaedic. [00:42:25] So he loves it when he’s operating. But everything else about [00:42:30] the system he despises and he’s and he’s also there was [00:42:35] probably about a year that he was like, oh, I’ll work out how to change it. I want to do a management course, I want to do [00:42:40] all of this. And then he was like, the reality is it’s not going to change, and I can’t do it because [00:42:45] I said I was like, well, why don’t you just speak up, do something like, because that’s what I do. I’m a bit mouthy and [00:42:50] I have an opinion. Um, and it’s because I care. Everything is because I care and I want [00:42:55] it to be better. Um, but he was like, you can’t with the NHS. Like, who’s going to listen? [00:43:00] What’s going to happen? And he’s now gone to what lots of other people have done and said he hasn’t left [00:43:05] the industry, but he’s already working out ways that he can do the minimum, his exit plan [00:43:10] once he’s done his consultancy exam and can [00:43:15] work out what to do because it’s not for him. It’s like, I don’t want to be a slave to the NHS because that’s what they are. They [00:43:20] are slaves to the system.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, echoes of that in NHS [00:43:25] dentistry too.

Anni Seaborne: Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s no doubt about that.

Anni Seaborne: I, I [00:43:30] have a small NHS contract, children’s only um, which is absolutely [00:43:35] fine, and I’m very lucky to have that. Um, but I originally joined Chelsea [00:43:40] with an NHS contract, and I struggled. I [00:43:45] really, really struggled. A lot of it was because I was on my own. It was a it’s basically, [00:43:50] well, it’s now fully private practice, but it was set up as a private practice with a small [00:43:55] NHS contract that I was doing on my own. Patients didn’t quite get it, so they’d have their [00:44:00] lovely coffee and all of that and then have high expectations. And [00:44:05] I just struggled with the service provision, trying to get the uda’s, um, [00:44:10] kind of done, whilst also we didn’t have amalgam in our practice, so I was having to do composite [00:44:15] for everything, which obviously takes a lot longer. Yeah. Um, and [00:44:20] it’s also that, I’ll be honest, there’s a bit of an ethical dilemma. A lot of the times I think dentists, every time [00:44:25] they’re treating a patient, it’s been like, am I upselling them a composite? Is it? I [00:44:30] think it’s in the back of your mind all the time. Can I do like, can I do an [00:44:35] amalgam or actually is a composite better. Is it one that I should be providing on the NHS or should I be? [00:44:40]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Doing that whole third party thing totally does my head in. I did my head in [00:44:45] the fact that I’ve got me and the patient and the situation. Yeah, that’s enough issues there. [00:44:50] Yeah. Right there. There’s enough issues to meet the patient and the situation, let alone a third party. Yeah. [00:44:55] Telling me what I can and can’t do or whatever. Rules and regulations. Right. Um, let’s [00:45:00] say we were going to fix it. Yeah. I’m not even going to bother asking you how [00:45:05] to fix, but, but but let’s imagine you wouldn’t do it like [00:45:10] this. You wouldn’t switch it off overnight. But let’s imagine we switched it off overnight. No NHS dentistry. Yeah. [00:45:15] None. Zero. Yeah. The 2.5% of healthcare [00:45:20] budget that’s going to NHS dentistry. Give back to people in their taxes. [00:45:25] Yeah. Now everyone pay for their dentistry. Yeah. It wouldn’t be that all practices [00:45:30] would be expensive private practices? No, there would be a range of private practices. Yeah, [00:45:35] there would be the independent ones, the cheaper ones. And then there’d still be the Harley Street ones and, [00:45:40] you know, the market would, would organise. Of course, you know, I’m not I’m not that [00:45:45] right wing to say, oh, markets solve everything. I’m not saying that. Yeah. Because things [00:45:50] like Dental insurance in jobs that we don’t my team do not have dental [00:45:55] insurance. They don’t. It’s not something they demand from their employer. But if there was [00:46:00] no NHS, maybe something like that would be part of the benefits of a job. Yeah. Do I get dental [00:46:05] like in America? Yeah, but my point is, at least you wouldn’t have the [00:46:10] the system that everyone agrees is broken. Everyone. I can’t find a single person. [00:46:15] I’ve had 250 people sit here. Yeah. I haven’t found a single person. Say, yeah, NHS [00:46:20] is working great. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Loads of patients are being treated. Yeah, [00:46:25] but I don’t know personally if a friend or family says they have a toothache. Yeah, [00:46:30] I do not advise. Go find yourself an NHS dentist. I do not. I do not. In fact, I expressly [00:46:35] go the other way. So definitely don’t go and see an NHS dentist. It’s just sad.

Anni Seaborne: It’s so [00:46:40] sad. And I also think the NHS and this is not just dentistry, [00:46:45] medical, everything has created this mentality that people aren’t willing to pay for healthcare as well. [00:46:50] And they they almost see private dentistry as an aesthetic option. [00:46:55] There’s a whole camp of people and then but the healthcare part is NHS and they expect it to [00:47:00] be free or heavily discounted. Yeah. And it’s crazy to me that people will [00:47:05] go get their nails done and for the same cost. You can go, as I said, not not super fancy. [00:47:10] Um, private practice, but just a standard private practice. Get a check up, look after your health of your [00:47:15] teeth, or you can go get your, I don’t know, your hair done. The cost of a filling [00:47:20] that’s lasting, hopefully at least ten years, whereas your hair is only going to last a couple of [00:47:25] months. Um, Um, and it’s a mindset thing. So if you almost removed it, people [00:47:30] would be like, okay, well we’re going to have to pay for it anyway. Yeah. Um, it’s like private doctors. [00:47:35] That’s the thing that really baffles me. When people are ill and they won’t, they’ll wait and they’ll moan and moan and moan and I’m like, [00:47:40] if £50 to go see a private GP. Yes, I know there could be a lot of extra [00:47:45] costs on top of it. Um, but I think it’s literally because of the NHS [00:47:50] option that people don’t value their healthcare. They almost think that healthcare is [00:47:55] free and they put no value on it.

Payman Langroudi: You know, in Holland, um, they it’s free. They’ve [00:48:00] got they’ve got an NHS version, but they give you the bill, they show you the bill.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. [00:48:05]

Payman Langroudi: You don’t pay it, but they show it to you. So you have a baby or something. They show [00:48:10] you the £6,000 that the Dutch health system spent.

Anni Seaborne: So they do that in Scotland actually, [00:48:15] because they’ve got a slightly higher fee per item, but they’ve got a cap and I think it’s around 300, approximately [00:48:20] 300 something pounds. So you’ll never pay more than that. But they’ll show you [00:48:25] the printout. How much more that actually it was fee per item properly. Yeah. This [00:48:30] is how much more it will cost.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s a funny thing man, [00:48:35] because it’s it’s health is now more funded than it’s ever been. It’s not like [00:48:40] it’s been unfunded defunded. Yeah. There’s more money going to health than it’s ever [00:48:45] gone before. And yet we sort of hark back and say, oh, now everything’s bankrupt. And, [00:48:50] you know, it’s a funny situation. The situation is the country can’t afford [00:48:55] free health care. No, you know, that’s the thing. And so things like what we’re saying [00:49:00] about people saving up for their kids braces, let’s say, or whatever, or [00:49:05] people having dental insurance or these that, that cultural change [00:49:10] has to happen in the same way as it did when I went to university. It was free. Yeah, [00:49:15] completely free. In fact, some people actually got money. They got grants. Yeah. [00:49:20] My guys.

Anni Seaborne: They made.

Payman Langroudi: Money. Yeah. One of the guys I was living with, he was getting he was getting money every, every month, [00:49:25] every term from the government. My mind was completely [00:49:30] free. Now, today, you know.

Anni Seaborne: 45,000 to do a dental degree.

Payman Langroudi: Right? Yeah. [00:49:35] You pay and people understand that that, you know, they get it. Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: You accept.

Payman Langroudi: It. So so society [00:49:40] can change in that way. Another sort of bugbear I’ve got I know what you think about this [00:49:45] is we’ve got the best of everything here, but the average is very low. So [00:49:50] you want the best food?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Around one mile away from here, you can get the [00:49:55] best food in the world. Yeah. But if you walk into a random place.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. You [00:50:00] don’t know what you’re getting.

Payman Langroudi: The best university in the world. We have them, right? Oxford and Cambridge. Yeah. Or [00:50:05] the best schools. We’ve got the best schools in the world. You walk into a random school? Yeah, the quality of that. And [00:50:10] it’s. It’s almost the way the country’s set up. Yeah. Is that it has both [00:50:15] ends. But not the middle.

Anni Seaborne: But not the middle. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: You know, and then you get the other way. The [00:50:20] the Scandinavian countries. Well, it’s only in the middle.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:50:25] and I was talking to my Swedish, uh, distributor, and somebody came up, somebody [00:50:30] said there’s a private members club or something, and he went, what’s that? And I said, it’s [00:50:35] a place where you pay to to be a member. Yeah. And he said, look, in Sweden, if [00:50:40] you mentioned that, everyone would just take the piss out of you, everyone would think you’re. It’s ridiculous. No [00:50:45] one would want to go to a place like that. Yeah. And so. So you know what I mean? Like the culture [00:50:50] of elite and and and the bottom. And nothing in the middle sets up the [00:50:55] way the country ends up.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. And I think we feed into that almost a little bit, as in the, [00:51:00] the Dental industry, you’re seeing a lot more show, a lot more glam, which I think is great. [00:51:05] But you’re definitely then creating this elite and once again, you’re kind of disassociating it [00:51:10] from healthcare. Yeah. Again, which it has its place. And I’m not going to say [00:51:15] no like no to it, but it does. I said create that disparity even [00:51:20] more because it’s almost.

Payman Langroudi: Perpetuates.

Anni Seaborne: It. Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about two things [00:51:25] I noticed you’re involved with that.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah I am. So, um. Lovely. [00:51:30] Chemik, the founder of tooth Angel. He was actually on my sports dentistry course.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, he did it too. [00:51:35]

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, he did it too. Oh, really? Um, he loves Liverpool Football [00:51:40] Club.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah, he does, he does, he does. Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: I think that was his driver. Really?

Payman Langroudi: He just loves to be their [00:51:45] dentist.

Anni Seaborne: Even though he’s nowhere near Liverpool. Sham. Sham I know. Bless [00:51:50] him. But he, um, he came to me last year with this opportunity or maybe at the beginning [00:51:55] of the year, um, to be involved with them as one of their kind of founding investors. [00:52:00] And I think it’s great. I mean, sustainability is the future that also premium [00:52:05] products that have been tested and the other people, um, who are kind of part [00:52:10] of the the Fab 11, I think he calls us or something fabulous [00:52:15] or something like that. I probably got it wrong. Magnificent 11. The the kind of founders. [00:52:20] Founding investors. Yeah. The angels. Exactly. Shams. Angels. Yeah. Um, [00:52:25] they were all such amazing people that I’ve, like, looked up to. And I was like, well, [00:52:30] this opportunity to be involved with a brand that is. I said, we know it’s good quality products [00:52:35] and really good for the environment. I thought it was an awesome opportunity. Um, and it’s been great [00:52:40] to be involved, and it’s another kind of opportunity to learn how the business works. This this is more like product related. [00:52:45] Um, did you.

Payman Langroudi: Invest cash?

Anni Seaborne: Yes I did.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re part owner [00:52:50] of the.

Anni Seaborne: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, interesting.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. Um, I’m the small owner because I [00:52:55] only had a small amount of money. But he let me in anyway. Um, [00:53:00] but. Yeah. So. Yeah. So I’ve invested in it because I genuinely think.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:53:05] of him paying you to be the the key opinion leader. You paid him? I know right?

Anni Seaborne: I [00:53:10] know he’s making.

Anni Seaborne: Me work hard for it as well to get my cash back.

Payman Langroudi: So go on, explain it. What [00:53:15] is it for people? Someone who doesn’t know what tooth Angel is.

Anni Seaborne: So premium oral health care products. So we’ve got [00:53:20] toothpaste, floss, mouth spray and toothbrush. Um, but with huge [00:53:25] sustainability angle. So everything has been really thought through, um, with [00:53:30] kind of backed research. So for example, our toothbrush, it’s a manual toothbrush, plastic [00:53:35] handle, um, which the idea is you keep for life and then you can replace the heads because it’s the heads are the reason [00:53:40] that you need to get rid of them. So it’s replaceable heads that you can then recycle and you keep the hands [00:53:45] up for life. And the reason we’ve gone with manual, um, is because actually we found that even if [00:53:50] you own electric toothbrush, at no point saying don’t use an electric toothbrush, but we found, well, [00:53:55] one, I think I can’t remember the exact figure, but something like 52% of people still use manual as [00:54:00] their primary toothbrush, and pretty much everyone who has an electric [00:54:05] will still have a manual in their house or to travel with or anything like that. So that’s kind of the [00:54:10] idea. And the idea is that you just have one full life and just replace the heads. Um, floss is made from recycled [00:54:15] water bottles. Um, and that’s honestly, I think the [00:54:20] hero product, um, toothpaste. Uh, he’s sham has worked really hard [00:54:25] with the toothpaste. Scott. Hydroxyapatite in it. Fluoride. It’s got all the good stuff. None of the bad stuff. Um, [00:54:30] and the toothpaste tubes are made of, um, sugar cane, so [00:54:35] they can be completely recycled as well. And then there’s a nice little mouth spray in a glass bottle, which. [00:54:40]

Payman Langroudi: Hydroxyapatite and fluoride in the toothpaste makes bind together to fluorapatite. [00:54:45]

Anni Seaborne: Um.

Payman Langroudi: In the, in the tube. And hence when you put it on the tooth, it [00:54:50] doesn’t bind to fluorapatite. You know, fluoride.

Anni Seaborne: Said the wrong.

Anni Seaborne: Thing.

Anni Seaborne: No, no. [00:54:55]

Payman Langroudi: It’s, uh, we have the same problem. Yeah. Um, so maybe he’s got a nano [00:55:00] form of hydroxy.

Anni Seaborne: I should know this. I should.

Anni Seaborne: Ask Chad, get sham on and get him to [00:55:05] deep dive into.

Anni Seaborne: This before I stick my foot.

Payman Langroudi: In it. I said the wrong thing.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:55:10] know we got the exact same problem [00:55:15] with that black one over there. Yes. Fluoride and hydroxyapatite. Um, but it’s problematic, [00:55:20] right? Because you want to put hydroxyapatite in a toothpaste. But if you don’t put fluoride in the [00:55:25] toothpaste, no dentist will buy it.

Anni Seaborne: He is. I think he’s planning on creating a fluoride free one.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:55:30] are we. So we could now.

Payman Langroudi: Now. Suddenly, now the fastest growing area in [00:55:35] oral care. Um, so that’d be much easier, I think. The nightmares we went through just to get fluoride [00:55:40] into this tube. Yeah. Um, but it didn’t make sense. Like 14 [00:55:45] years ago when we brought that out. No way would you have put a toothpaste out to dentists that. [00:55:50]

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Have fluoride.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s one of the funny things about products. Products [00:55:55] are so difficult. So hard.

Anni Seaborne: Well, I’ve said I’m lucky that he’d already kind of developed them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:56:00] yeah, yeah.

Anni Seaborne: But it is. Yeah. It’s hard to get it right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the problem with products is you [00:56:05] have so many hundreds of thousands of them to get anywhere. Yeah. You know, it’s the opposite of, you know, [00:56:10] the orthodontist. And she was saying, yeah, 100 patients, 100 new patients a [00:56:15] year is wonderful for an orthodontist. Yeah. You can run a massive ortho business with [00:56:20] 100 patients a year. It’s not the case with £10.

Payman Langroudi: Products.

Payman Langroudi: Or.

Payman Langroudi: £6 products. Right? Exactly. [00:56:25]

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about. Let’s get to a darker part.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Errors. [00:56:30]

Anni Seaborne: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: We like to talk about clinical errors so that [00:56:35] we can learn from each other’s errors. When I say clinical errors [00:56:40] what comes to mind.

Anni Seaborne: Ah I was having a think about this. [00:56:45] And I mean obviously I’ve made loads of errors. I regularly look at composites [00:56:50] I’ve done and be like, oh, this is embarrassing. Especially the more magnification loops I get. I’m [00:56:55] like, oh no, that was me that put that in. Um, the one [00:57:00] that I think has stuck with me most actually is a facial aesthetics error. Um, because that [00:57:05] kind of almost unfolded in real time with a customer and unhappy customer. And when [00:57:10] you’re mixing up Botox, Botox comes as a powder and you mix it up with saline [00:57:15] and you’re meant to mix up with bacteriostatic saline. And this was I was probably like a month or two into [00:57:20] my job at the the Facial Aesthetics Clinic, and I was covering actually in a different [00:57:25] clinic to the one that was kind of my home base, and it was a Saturday, so no one there was [00:57:30] kind of no help. And at this point I was like, okay, I’m good at Botox. I’ve got this. And I went in and they didn’t [00:57:35] have the standard bacteriostatic saline that I was used to. And so I was looking around and then [00:57:40] I found this like big box of water for injection. Right. And um, so I was like, [00:57:45] maybe this is it. I didn’t really know enough about it. Um, and I was like, well, it’s water [00:57:50] for injection. It must be safe to inject probably. That’s it. It says saline on it. It’ll [00:57:55] be fine. So I mix that up. What I didn’t realise is that that causes, um, [00:58:00] stinging. Right. So the reason you get bacteriostatic is so you don’t feel it. I’ve then [00:58:05] got this, um, American lady come in. She’s had it for years. She knows exactly what it’s [00:58:10] meant to feel like I’m covering. So it’s not her normal clinician.

Payman Langroudi: She’s the perfect. [00:58:15]

Payman Langroudi: Storm.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t it? Yeah. Perfect storm.

Anni Seaborne: I’m in a clinic that I first time I’ve been in.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:58:20] nurse didn’t turn up.

Anni Seaborne: So then I start mixing it all up like [00:58:25] this. Fine. Looks exactly the same. Just a little see through solution. Start injecting [00:58:30] her. She’s like, oh. And then I’ve, like, I’ve gone in. I think I’ve done her frown. So five injections [00:58:35] and she just loses it. She’s like, I’m stinging, I’m burning. What have [00:58:40] you done? Like, this is not what it meant to feel like. Like she’s in tears. I’m [00:58:45] there being like, I have no idea what I’ve done at this point. Um, I was [00:58:50] like, have I done the anatomy wrong? Like, what is the need? Is it all of that? And then I was like, oh, it [00:58:55] must be that. But then how do I tell someone there I’m not experienced? I’m only two months in, um, [00:59:00] and even two months in, it’s only kind of three days a week with a lot of it still kind of being the ongoing [00:59:05] training. There’s no one around me. The practice manager is trying to help me calm down the situation, because [00:59:10] I’ve got someone in physical pain that’s not meant to be in pain. Luckily, the stinging goes away. Um, [00:59:15] how long it only lasted? Kind of. Yeah. [00:59:20] If that. Um. But obviously she knows something’s not right. There’s no way of hiding [00:59:25] it. I haven’t got a clue what I’ve done wrong, but I know luckily it didn’t affect [00:59:30] anything clinically. Luckily did not affect anything. It worked. We only did [00:59:35] have found she didn’t do the rest. And understand. What did.

Payman Langroudi: You say?

Payman Langroudi: So what did she say to you?

Anni Seaborne: So [00:59:40] I just was like, well, I blamed the product being like, oh, I don’t know, how about you kind [00:59:45] of come back, we’ll review it. Um, it wasn’t until the [00:59:50] Monday when I’d kind of spoken to the clinical leader that they explained what would happen. They were like, don’t panic. It’s [00:59:55] fine. We can diffuse it. Um, luckily, she didn’t have a reaction or anything after that, [01:00:00] but I just remember being there when someone you’ve literally inflicted pain on someone [01:00:05] I hadn’t got a clue I was. It’s not like I’ve made a mistake. I’ve made clinical mistakes. I’d be like, oh, I should have done [01:00:10] that instead. This one, I was like, I have no idea what’s going on. And someone is currently burning [01:00:15] up in front of me and I’m 23 years old. No one else. [01:00:20] There’s no one else clinical in the building either. There was no other clinician [01:00:25] at.

Payman Langroudi: All that stopped.

Payman Langroudi: Hurting. You thought it might be something awful?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, I was like, I don’t [01:00:30] know what.

Payman Langroudi: She’s going to have, like a reaction or.

Anni Seaborne: Something. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: God. [01:00:35]

Payman Langroudi: And, um, I think that’s the one that’s.

Anni Seaborne: Really scarred me because, as I said, I couldn’t. You [01:00:40] can’t hide from it. You’re there. And I said, luckily it wasn’t actually a clinical mistake. I didn’t cause anything. [01:00:45] But it’s one of those.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good one, though. I like that.

Payman Langroudi: One.

Anni Seaborne: Things that, as I [01:00:50] said, everything.

Payman Langroudi: I like that.

Payman Langroudi: One.

Anni Seaborne: I was in tears afterwards. [01:00:55] It was.

Payman Langroudi: You. I bet.

Payman Langroudi: You were. Yeah, it was.

Anni Seaborne: Traumatic, to say.

Payman Langroudi: The least. [01:01:00]

Payman Langroudi: Did the patient complain?

Anni Seaborne: Luckily didn’t. Um, she complained [01:01:05] at the time, and it was kind of diffused with the manager and just brought back in. [01:01:10] Saw her regular clinician. I think we explained that it was a I don’t know [01:01:15] whether we blamed that. It was like a faulty.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: I can’t remember exactly [01:01:20] what happened. But she did she obviously complained at the time but didn’t do a follow up because I think as I said, [01:01:25] the product worked and actually she didn’t have any reactions from it. Um, but at the [01:01:30] time she was not happy, understandably.

Payman Langroudi: It’s really good to get someone like you to [01:01:35] say something like that. You know, it’s really.

Payman Langroudi: Good.

Payman Langroudi: Because on the outside you look like such a superb, [01:01:40] superb. Like everything’s going right for you. You know, it’s one of the things [01:01:45] about social media, right? It’s a highlight.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Highlight reel.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, no one’s stupid enough to think your [01:01:50] life is this blessed thing. Yeah. But on on that front, what are you really bad at?

Anni Seaborne: Um, [01:01:55] I. What [01:02:00] am I bad at? I things [01:02:05] that I don’t like, I don’t I try to avoid situations that I am kind [01:02:10] of bad at. I’m very good at asking for help, so I have to manage [01:02:15] to twist that into something I’m very good at.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What [01:02:20] am I like?

Payman Langroudi: Like a, like an interview question? Why didn’t they ask you when you went for that job? What’s [01:02:25] your biggest weakness?

Anni Seaborne: Well, my biggest weakness is they.

Payman Langroudi: Did you [01:02:30] say you got the job? I know, I know, I [01:02:35] care.

Payman Langroudi: Too.

Payman Langroudi: Much.

Payman Langroudi: But.

Anni Seaborne: I [01:02:40] do. You know what that probably is? That actually I hold on to things until someone says no. Um, [01:02:45] and I probably get into a bit of a tunnel on something.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:02:50] as in, as in you, you don’t give up on stuff even after [01:02:55] you really should.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: I will keep persevering.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: And sometimes [01:03:00] I probably waste time.

Payman Langroudi: Because.

Payman Langroudi: Perseverance is a great skill, man. It’s an important skill.

Anni Seaborne: But I think sometimes [01:03:05] I.

Payman Langroudi: Waste some time.

Anni Seaborne: Doing it and which. But I’ve said that to people, and like I [01:03:10] tell me no, if you tell me no, I’ll stop. But if you don’t, if you don’t say it explicitly, I [01:03:15] will keep hammering on. And I get very emotive about things. [01:03:20] And I think sometimes it’s I’m proud of my emotions and I’m proud that I’m very purpose [01:03:25] driven, and I hold a lot of value to things, and I will keep going [01:03:30] and kind of fight for things. But I think sometimes that can almost cloud my [01:03:35] judgement a little bit. Is my emotions on right and [01:03:40] wrong and I need.

Payman Langroudi: Your biggest strength is always your biggest weakness as [01:03:45] well. You know, it ends up.

Payman Langroudi: It’s.

Anni Seaborne: What’s got me, it’s what’s got me here. But I also think it’s now finding [01:03:50] a balance.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just that.

Payman Langroudi: You can say, oh, Annie is super kind.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Amazing. [01:03:55] Sounds amazing. But then sometimes, I don’t know, one day you might need to fire someone. And [01:04:00] you’re so.

Payman Langroudi: Kind.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t have.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Payman Langroudi: Conversation, you know? And suddenly your biggest strength is your biggest [01:04:05] weakness. What else are you bad at?

Anni Seaborne: What else?

Payman Langroudi: My line of questioning.

Anni Seaborne: What [01:04:10] do you know? Do you know what was interesting? I did a talk at Sheffield University and [01:04:15] to their students. And I did my classic. Like, this is where everything I do. [01:04:20] Look at all my accomplishments. And then I was like, what’s what’s not on here is everything I’ve done badly. [01:04:25] And this sounds ridiculous. I, I put a lot of [01:04:30] weight at university on sport. That was my focus was playing lacrosse. That’s real. Dentistry was like a side [01:04:35] of it. But really I was there to train. I wanted to make World Cup. I never made a single major championship. [01:04:40] So with all my caps for Wales, I never made a championship. And to me, that’s [01:04:45] the biggest failure because that was my purpose. I could have probably got away with not graduating dental school and been better, like [01:04:50] more at peace with that than the fact that I never.

Payman Langroudi: Was [01:04:55] good enough.

Payman Langroudi: That it takes right.

Anni Seaborne: To do it. And the reality was I was never good enough. It’s not. At no point [01:05:00] did I think I earned a spot. I deserved a spot over someone else that got selected. [01:05:05] I could look at the team and be like, I don’t. I’m not better than any of you.

Payman Langroudi: And that is that hard [01:05:10] to face.

Anni Seaborne: That is hard to face. And I think and the worst bit is when I had my big [01:05:15] injury, I it happened as I was at a position that I was like, [01:05:20] I am better, I deserve to be on this team. And a lot of people said I was like, you’ve improved [01:05:25] so much. You’re like, you deserve. And I had I had caps for the team. But it was always that kind of the [01:05:30] equivalent of the Six Nations like Home Counties, but never at a major championship. And I was going to make euros [01:05:35] like I was not a dead cert, but this was my year.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And [01:05:40] that’s.

Payman Langroudi: When the injury.

Payman Langroudi: Happened.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. And then I was out for two and a half years.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what was.

Payman Langroudi: The.

Payman Langroudi: Injury? [01:05:45]

Anni Seaborne: It did everything to my leg. You could possibly do ACL, fractured it. Um, meniscus. [01:05:50] Everything went um. And then I’d had three operations to get back at it.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. [01:05:55]

Payman Langroudi: So in one incident.

Anni Seaborne: In one incident? Yeah, it was a trauma.

Payman Langroudi: In a game. During a.

Payman Langroudi: Game?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. [01:06:00] Both jumping up for the ball landed. And as I was, like, full extension [01:06:05] landed, someone fell on me, so it just snapped everything.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Anni Seaborne: So.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:06:10] is it like, is that the kind of injury you can’t, you can’t come back from? Is it like that?

Anni Seaborne: I tried.

Payman Langroudi: And I. [01:06:15]

Anni Seaborne: Still play, but I couldn’t. Yeah, I tried coming back to the international [01:06:20] setup and I was just a step behind everyone. And when you when you know you’re a step behind and [01:06:25] I’m a defender so I can’t be a step behind because then I’m not very good at my job. So that’s something I’m bad at now. But [01:06:30] is when when you know you’re not there. And also, I just got to a point where I couldn’t commit [01:06:35] the extra hours to maybe get get there. I couldn’t do that to myself, [01:06:40] um, because there was a lot and my career was building and I was doing all of that. [01:06:45] And Covid happened just as I was about to kind of make my comeback, so that delayed it a little [01:06:50] bit more. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And so then you’re kind of redefining yourself as this [01:06:55] other person and the one that you thought you were going to be.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:07:00]

Anni Seaborne: I honestly, my purpose for so long was sport and dentistry [01:07:05] just funded it.

Payman Langroudi: And so that was your flip into like, now I’m gonna focus [01:07:10] on dentistry.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, I’m gonna focus on something and I’ve got that drive. I’m competitive [01:07:15] as hell. And that’s probably when my emotions come too much. Like, I am very competitive and I’m very like, [01:07:20] I want to be the best and I want to do the best. And, um, I [01:07:25] think that’s why I’ve kind of just thrown myself into everything [01:07:30] I do now, because I don’t have that sport side of me. And I said, I still I still dabble in it. I play club [01:07:35] and keep that up. But I don’t get that fulfilment from being good at [01:07:40] it anymore.

Payman Langroudi: Do you remember a time where you weren’t competitive [01:07:45] and like no, always, always [01:07:50] like sibling rivalry or that sort of thing is.

Payman Langroudi: That I.

Anni Seaborne: Even I remember at school [01:07:55] this once again still triggers me a little bit. Is at school [01:08:00] in sixth form. I didn’t get Head Girl and I actually [01:08:05] went and asked for feedback and they said you were the two obvious choice, but it’s because I’d done everything [01:08:10] in my life to be that obvious choice.

Payman Langroudi: Too obvious.

Payman Langroudi: Choice?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, too obvious a choice.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. [01:08:15]

Anni Seaborne: And I was like, but I have purposely done everything to [01:08:20] do that. I’ve played sport. I had.

Payman Langroudi: Um, how did you take [01:08:25] that music? Weird thing to say to obvious. So [01:08:30] who.

Payman Langroudi: Got it? Like the super cool.

Payman Langroudi: Photographer.

Payman Langroudi: Chick? [01:08:35]

Payman Langroudi: Uh.

Anni Seaborne: I can’t.

Payman Langroudi: Remember. It was.

Anni Seaborne: Two girls. No, they were both. I mean, one [01:08:40] went on to do classics at Oxford, and.

Payman Langroudi: The other one.

Anni Seaborne: Was like, yeah, they’re both amazing ladies, [01:08:45] but I remember that was the feedback I got and I was just like, oh, okay. But that’s [01:08:50] my drive is because I was like, I want to.

Payman Langroudi: So along the same lines of do your biggest strength is your biggest [01:08:55] weakness, what is the real downside of being super competitive? We’re kind of getting into it now, right? Is it [01:09:00] is it tiring?

Anni Seaborne: It’s frustrating. Frustrating because [01:09:05] I don’t I hold myself to high level. I hold other people to a high level.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:09:10]

Anni Seaborne: Um, and sometimes that’s not fair on other people.

Payman Langroudi: People disappoint you.

Anni Seaborne: People [01:09:15] disappoint me all the time.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Anni Seaborne: Um. And I. [01:09:20] Yeah. I say people disappoint me all the time. I get frustrated by people all the time. [01:09:25] Um, and because I don’t understand why they don’t have why I say [01:09:30] I’m learning to understand why people don’t have the same drive as me and the same purpose. [01:09:35] And I probably, as I said, once again, I’m too emotive with it and I’m too driven with this and I [01:09:40] don’t understand why other people Don’t feel so strongly about [01:09:45] it, but actually they’re just doing their job.

Payman Langroudi: So it must be frustrating how slow stuff must [01:09:50] move in a huge company like Bupa that must really get to you yet.

Anni Seaborne: I’ve learnt how to deal [01:09:55] with it. It was hard at the start. If I’m completely honest. But I also get their reasoning [01:10:00] and it’s an insurance company at heart, so they are very risk [01:10:05] averse. So everything has to be done properly. But then the perks of it is that if it’s done and it does [01:10:10] go through you, you probably have a good product. You probably have a good system in place when. [01:10:15]

Payman Langroudi: Eventually it gets there.

Anni Seaborne: Because it’s been so rigorously checked out and [01:10:20] gone through every single kind of forum and committee and being kind [01:10:25] of.

Payman Langroudi: You know, from, from the sporting analogy, I feel like that’s defence [01:10:30] kind of way of acting, whereas a lot of times your ideas [01:10:35] offence ideas, you know, and you can’t, you can’t go into a thing with a defence [01:10:40] mindset and expect the same outcome as you’re going with it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: And [01:10:45] I think that’s where we’re changing. And I think that’s where Marc is doing a really.

Payman Langroudi: Fantastic.

Anni Seaborne: Job is actually like pivoting [01:10:50] everything. And that’s.

Payman Langroudi: What’s cool. He’s cool.

Payman Langroudi: He’s a cool.

Payman Langroudi: Dude. Yeah, [01:10:55] I’m.

Anni Seaborne: Trying to kind of support him and be a bit more out there. Learn what other people are doing. Um, [01:11:00] so we’re not just stuck in our corporate ways. Yes, we are going to be limited. Our hands are tied [01:11:05] to a certain extent because also everything we do, it’s not like we can roll out for one practice. It’s for [01:11:10] nearly 400 practices. So, um, but I think we are trying [01:11:15] to change things up, um, and be a bit more forward thinking, be a bit more proactive. [01:11:20] And as I said, be a bit more offensive. Um, but yes, you [01:11:25] are right. There’s always going to be a defensive element to it.

Payman Langroudi: And clinically, how many [01:11:30] days are you drilling? Are you drilling less now that you’ve got this job?

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So how many days do you drill? Days and [01:11:35] one day full time?

Anni Seaborne: Two days.

Payman Langroudi: Full time?

Payman Langroudi: Two times. Two days. Full time on the Bupa. [01:11:40] Yeah, on the corporate thing. So what happens on those two days?

Anni Seaborne: Two days. [01:11:45] Um, so a lot of it strategy, um, advising. So a lot of calls with [01:11:50] smaller groups. So for example marketing team, finance team, pricing team. And they’ll just pick your [01:11:55] brains, they’ll normally come to you saying.

Payman Langroudi: They need a clinical in all of those situations.

Anni Seaborne: That’s the idea. Yep. So [01:12:00] it’s being like this is what we’re doing. We’re just going to run it past you. What are your thoughts? [01:12:05] Any immediate red flags? Anything you would advise changing? Um, so [01:12:10] a lot of it is that and then we’ve got our own kind of little personal projects that we push through and work with [01:12:15] the operations team. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And what do.

Payman Langroudi: You mean, what.

Payman Langroudi: Does.

Payman Langroudi: That mean? You’re [01:12:20] allowed to do a project of your own.

Anni Seaborne: Um, well, if we think that there’s something. Yeah, if there’s something that we [01:12:25] feel would benefit, for example, like CPD or anything like that, we’re like, actually, do you know, we [01:12:30] think this would benefit the community and it hasn’t been thought about.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: We [01:12:35] can kind of present it and try and get the ball rolling. With that. It’s a little bit harder because starting a project from [01:12:40] scratch, um, but we have that opportunity.

Payman Langroudi: To do that.

Payman Langroudi: So you I mean, [01:12:45] obviously you can say what you think, but then do you then go to a bunch of clinicians and kind [01:12:50] of feel out your ideas or their ideas?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, exactly. So I spend a lot of time kind of on the ground [01:12:55] practice visits, chatting to people. So I was up in Scotland a couple of weeks ago, um.

Payman Langroudi: Try [01:13:00] and get the rugby thing.

Anni Seaborne: Uh, so I tied it in with that, but I was, I spent two days actually [01:13:05] going around practices in Scotland just meeting everyone. Um, and [01:13:10] yeah, just hearing voices and understanding because I’ve got my [01:13:15] lived experience and my view. But I’m also highly aware I’m now in a private practice in Chelsea. And [01:13:20] the reality is it’s not the same as a fully NHS practice in Newcastle, for example. [01:13:25] So how am I meant to represent that if I don’t know what’s going on?

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Anni Seaborne: So a lot of [01:13:30] it is just having conversations. And I said a lot of it tends to be the common themes of just [01:13:35] give me a good support team and a chair that works, [01:13:40] and a surgery that works and they’re happy. But sometimes there are bigger issues that aren’t [01:13:45] necessarily operational that I can say like, okay, how can we look at this, take a step back, and [01:13:50] what can we do to support you? Or what can we do to kind of evolve Bupa [01:13:55] to make it kind of fit what you what you need? Basically.

Payman Langroudi: How much do you [01:14:00] enjoy the the corporate side more than the clinical side? Or is it the fact that there is a [01:14:05] mix or in your ideal world, would you go up the next stage in the ladder [01:14:10] and do less, less clinical?

Anni Seaborne: I think if I’m honest, I would actually you asked me what I’m bad at. I’m not as [01:14:15] I’m not bad at it, but I’m not as good as clinically as I’d want to be. And, um. [01:14:20]

Payman Langroudi: But.

Payman Langroudi: You’re really enjoying the.

Payman Langroudi: Other side.

Anni Seaborne: I’m really enjoying the other side. And I [01:14:25] am lucky to have it be in a position that I feel like I can make a difference. And I said my my underlying [01:14:30] purpose, I guess, is I want the industry just to be a nicer [01:14:35] place and be a better place for everyone. Not just dentists, not just clinicians, but everyone. Um, [01:14:40] and this job. Yes. I can’t change the industry, but I can slowly [01:14:45] try and change those within Bupa, um, to create a better environment [01:14:50] for everyone. And I’m enjoying having that as a purpose. Whereas I’ll be honest, my purpose [01:14:55] isn’t teeth. Um, and it’s probably clear from the off. Like I said, I’d [01:15:00] rather played sport than done this. Um, and I don’t [01:15:05] love teeth. I don’t love the science of [01:15:10] it. Like, I want to do good by my patients. So I make sure that I do the best I can. [01:15:15] But that’s kind of a self-driven look.

Payman Langroudi: Once you stop fully, fully [01:15:20] stop like I did, you realise what it was that you liked and what it was that you didn’t like? Yeah, and [01:15:25] I certainly didn’t like the Meccano carpentry side of dentistry at all, like, you know, all well [01:15:30] and good. Yeah, but that wasn’t what what I enjoyed was the people.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I.

Anni Seaborne: Love the. [01:15:35]

Payman Langroudi: People.

Payman Langroudi: And and so the dentistry is a mix of these people and, and many [01:15:40] other things that some people really enjoy. The treatment planning.

Payman Langroudi: Piece. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which again, I didn’t particularly enjoy [01:15:45] but but you know, I was never a good dentist. I was just, you know, but people I do miss [01:15:50] badly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t meet people. Meet dentists.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:15:55] that’s where you’re kind of going in that direction, too?

Payman Langroudi: Yes. And I do want [01:16:00] to keep.

Anni Seaborne: I know I’m not planning on giving up my clinical anytime soon. I’ve got so much to learn, and I can’t. [01:16:05] Also, I can’t do my job if I’m not doing clinical, I can’t.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right. That’s right. That is that is who you are in that [01:16:10] team.

Anni Seaborne: I can’t.

Payman Langroudi: Be.

Anni Seaborne: Advocating for the coalface if I’m not actually doing it myself. [01:16:15]

Payman Langroudi: Just to say you were going to go to the next rung in the ladder. What’s next? What [01:16:20] what where would you go next? What would be the next move would be?

Anni Seaborne: I don’t know, work my [01:16:25] way up to the board. I don’t know I don’t know what that would look like. I don’t I don’t know what I’m good [01:16:30] at and I don’t know what I don’t know yet. So I’m still early on. I know I’m doing probably [01:16:35] a lot better than a lot of. I think people are surprised when I say I’m the head of general dentistry. Yeah. [01:16:40] Um, at Bupa. But I’ve got a lot to learn [01:16:45] still about how everything works. And I’m learning on the job. Um, I [01:16:50] think I’m lucky that this job is very much just being a voice of the people and that I can do, um, and [01:16:55] I’ve told I’ve. I mean, I’ve been very open about it. It’s like, oh, I’d want to be CEO, [01:17:00] but that’s a ten, 15, 20 year plan. However long I need to take to be good [01:17:05] at it. I don’t just want to tick boxes. Um, and I don’t [01:17:10] know what I don’t know, so I don’t know how to get there. And I’m being open about it now with everyone that I meet because [01:17:15] I’m like, I, if you can tell me something, you can give me a nugget that I can learn and [01:17:20] that’ll get me there bit quicker or that’ll get me there in the right will point me in the right direction. Um, because [01:17:25] I said, I want to be able to make a difference. And I’m lucky. I’ve already got a platform [01:17:30] to do that. And if I could do that on a bigger scale in healthcare, um, that’d [01:17:35] be amazing. And to have that opportunity be incredible. But everything I want to do, I want to be good [01:17:40] at it, and I want to be in that position because I’m good at it. So.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ruled [01:17:45] out, for instance, opening your own practice, things like that?

Payman Langroudi: No.

Anni Seaborne: Um, [01:17:50] I don’t have the capacity right now. Um, because I am still learning, [01:17:55] and I’m focusing on that. Um, but, no, I get bored [01:18:00] easily. So, um, I know at a point, [01:18:05] if I’m coasting at anything and I don’t plan on coasting because I’m hoping, but if I’m not being stimulated in some [01:18:10] way, I will look to do something else. Um, if I [01:18:15] can do them simultaneously. Because also like alongside obviously helping Shan with tooth Angel, I’m [01:18:20] doing this. I, um, have also got another business [01:18:25] that I’m setting up, which is launching next year, which is a product business which you’ve made me really [01:18:30] nervous about now.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll do that. So we’ll talk later. [01:18:35]

Anni Seaborne: So, um, so yeah, that’s looking at kind of linking [01:18:40] sport and aesthetic and doing like an SPF for athletes. Um, business [01:18:45] that’s launching next year. So I’ve got that in the pipeline as well. Um, doing my [01:18:50] own sports dentistry course, um, which will hopefully be launching soon to kind of make it a bit more accessible for people [01:18:55] who want to.

Payman Langroudi: I bet.

Payman Langroudi: There’ll be loads and loads of people who want to do.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Anni Seaborne: I hope so.

Payman Langroudi: I bet.

Payman Langroudi: There.

Payman Langroudi: Will be. It’s definitely [01:19:00] interesting.

Anni Seaborne: Um, I want to make it easy because at the moment you’ve only been able to get it through like [01:19:05] the academic UCL pathway, which, by the way, is an incredible, incredible course. And the lecturers are, are [01:19:10] the. Yeah. Um, John and Peter, the lecturers, they’re amazing. Um, but [01:19:15] I wanted kind of a more accessible, why not version of it. Um, [01:19:20] and it’s going to be predominantly online platform. Um, because as you said earlier, [01:19:25] it’s I’m not teaching anything, anyone, anything new. It’s more the thought process [01:19:30] behind it and kind of applying everyday dentistry to athletes. Um, [01:19:35] so yeah, so I’ve got that in the pipeline as well. Um, I’ve [01:19:40] got a lot going on. But the way I think about it is like if I was a high flying lawyer and I’ve got so many law [01:19:45] based friends, they’re doing stupid hours.

Payman Langroudi: So, yeah, I.

Anni Seaborne: Like the hours I do are nothing compared [01:19:50] to what they do. Um, so it’s not that impressive, [01:19:55] really.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very.

Payman Langroudi: Impressive. It’s very impressive. It’s good [01:20:00] to see. It’s good to see your enthusiasm. And long may it continue. You know, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: What I hope sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:20:05] know, life can deflates people. And that’s a shame. You know I don’t think that’s going to happen to you. [01:20:10] But it can happen.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. No, I think.

Anni Seaborne: I’m feeling kind of more positive. I’m feeling [01:20:15] because everything’s going well at the moment and I’m sure I’m going to have absolute dips. I know that, and there’s going [01:20:20] to be times when I’m going to be overwhelmed. But right now, life is. Well, I’m very privileged. I’m very grateful. [01:20:25] Um, so I’ve just got to make the most of it really amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get [01:20:30] to our final question. Really enjoyed it. Um, fantasy dinner party. [01:20:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests, dead or.

Payman Langroudi: Alive? Yes.

Anni Seaborne: Um, [01:20:40] first would be Nelson Mandela. So I was in Mozambique [01:20:45] around the time that apartheid was ending. And it was even though I was young, [01:20:50] it was a big thing. Also, my parents, like my dad’s white, my mum’s, um, Malaysian. [01:20:55] And they were feeling it and I noticed that they felt it. Um, so I’d love to [01:21:00] learn a bit bit more about that and also his resilience and his leadership, and said he [01:21:05] was purpose driven and motive and stuck to his gardens and [01:21:10] just an amazing person. So I’d just love to know a bit more about him. Um, Michelle [01:21:15] Obama.

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Anni Seaborne: More to learn how to be a leader without being [01:21:20] the leader. If that makes sense. She’s done such a great job to inspire people [01:21:25] without actually being the main person. So yeah, I just think she’s an [01:21:30] amazing human.

Payman Langroudi: Both both have been invited by a few people.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Are they the go to?

Payman Langroudi: Well that’s cool. [01:21:35] That’s cool.

Anni Seaborne: And then, to be honest, just someone funny. Okay, so maybe like a Ricky Gervais or. [01:21:40]

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Anni Seaborne: I enjoyed his afterlife series.

Payman Langroudi: So.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. So something like that, I don’t [01:21:45] know. No one else. But the other two are kind of the main ones that I think are incredible.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. And [01:21:50] finally, is a deathbed question weird for someone so young. But [01:21:55] if it was, if you were on your deathbed surrounded by your loved ones.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Three [01:22:00] pieces of advice for them and for everyone. What would they be? [01:22:05]

Anni Seaborne: First one would be I tried to live by. This is. It’s better to be [01:22:10] happy than right. So don’t kind of. And I say this as someone who gets [01:22:15] really emotive and really strong willed, world, but, um, don’t kind of stick [01:22:20] to something of its risks kind of upsetting someone else or just to prove a point. So that [01:22:25] would be my first one. Um, second one is to not worry about what other people are doing [01:22:30] and just stick on your own path because you’re where you’re meant to be. Um, and [01:22:35] that’s that.

Payman Langroudi: That competitive edge, though, doesn’t follow with that [01:22:40] one. Or are you saying, I’ve had trouble with this, so you shouldn’t?

Anni Seaborne: No, I [01:22:45] would say I do. You know what? It’s a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Of.

Payman Langroudi: Competing with yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Is that what you mean?

Anni Seaborne: Yes, but [01:22:50] I think a lot of people come to me, and especially recently, have been like, [01:22:55] how have you got there? All of this. And I think there’s an expectation, especially amongst [01:23:00] young dentists, that they have to achieve so much.

Payman Langroudi: Or they have to.

Payman Langroudi: As if the in [01:23:05] time like they falling behind or.

Payman Langroudi: Something.

Anni Seaborne: And actually there’s absolutely nothing wrong. If all you want [01:23:10] to do is be a GDP and have a family and look after that and do [01:23:15] three days a week. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. And that is fine. [01:23:20] And to an extent, I wish that that’s what I wanted. Um, and it’s [01:23:25] no shame on you. And it’s not that you’ve done less with your life and you haven’t made anyone proud, because the fact that you’re doing a [01:23:30] dentistry, which is a highly competitive degree in the first place to get into the career, is incredible. [01:23:35] Um, if you don’t want to be a dentist and actually you hate the industry and you want to go teach [01:23:40] yoga, that’s also completely okay. And I think there’s this.

Payman Langroudi: Equally, [01:23:45] you know, if you don’t want kids.

Anni Seaborne: If you don’t want kids.

Payman Langroudi: There should be a lifestyle that should that [01:23:50] should be a thing.

Payman Langroudi: That’s absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Cool. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. There’s still a stigma about that. I think.

Payman Langroudi: It’s. [01:23:55]

Anni Seaborne: Oh, 100%. And I’m I’ll be honest, like, I don’t I don’t have a drive for children. [01:24:00] I know my partner does. And it’s something we’ve discussed and it’s something that we’re looking into [01:24:05] egg freezing and all of that. Because right now I’m not I’m being selfish and I’m not [01:24:10] in a position to sacrifice what I’ve built right now. Um, and. [01:24:15]

Payman Langroudi: Like, if, you know, we’ve had two whole podcasts on egg freezing with Roni, and now [01:24:20] I’m just going around giving that advice to everyone, everyone, any young lady like [01:24:25] the younger the better. Yeah. With the egg freezing thing. It makes so much sense.

Anni Seaborne: Exactly, [01:24:30] exactly. And I’ve and I. Yeah, I think there’s kind of no shame in it. And it’s normal. If [01:24:35] that’s what that’s what you want to do, then that’s fine. And that’s my pathway. And equally, [01:24:40] I’ve got some friends who are struggling, trying. I’ve got friends who are starting families [01:24:45] and we’re all on our different path and we’re where we’re meant to be. And it’s no one is doing [01:24:50] better than the other person.

Payman Langroudi: Um, does it.

Payman Langroudi: You know, like [01:24:55] the idea of sort of seeking perfection. I see it [01:25:00] a lot with women, like sort of almost juggling everything, like having it all.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:25:05]

Payman Langroudi: Does that weigh on you, like.

Anni Seaborne: Um. For me? No, because I’m [01:25:10] really lucky. I’m doing things I want to be doing. Um.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Payman Langroudi: But discussion [01:25:15] for having it all implies. Yeah, doing everything you’re doing. And children as.

Payman Langroudi: Well, for instance.

Anni Seaborne: So I don’t [01:25:20] I realistically don’t think I could do what I wanted to do and have children. And that’s why I’ve made that decision. [01:25:25] And I’m really lucky that I’ve got a supportive partner who is happy to wait. And we’ve [01:25:30] I’ve basically said to him that until you can pull your weight and he [01:25:35] can’t until he’s a consultant, really, because he’s a slave to the NHS medical field. Um, [01:25:40] until you can pull your weight. I’m not willing to do that because it [01:25:45] would be too much. And I’m really lucky that I live in an era where there is science that may help me. [01:25:50] Um, and I’m also really lucky that I don’t have that internal drive for children, because I think it would [01:25:55] be really difficult if that was also on my mind. I don’t if I’m honest, and it’s really [01:26:00] horrible for women, but I don’t think I’d be doing what I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Doing for.

Payman Langroudi: Different.

Payman Langroudi: People. Yeah, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Different for different people. [01:26:05] It means nothing like, uh, Linda Greenwald for children, They’ve done [01:26:10] everything she’s done, you know. That’s her. Yeah. Phenomenal weather. Whether you want to be [01:26:15] that person or you want to be you. Yes. It doesn’t have to be like a thing that anyone [01:26:20] feels sort of guilty about. Yeah, it really shouldn’t.

Anni Seaborne: No it shouldn’t. It [01:26:25] shouldn’t at all. Um, and it also shouldn’t be one or the other. It doesn’t. Just because I’m doing what I am [01:26:30] doesn’t mean I can’t have children as well.

Payman Langroudi: Of course.

Anni Seaborne: Not. Um, so, yeah, it’s difficult [01:26:35] and there’s pressures, but I think it’s definitely people are talking about it a lot more.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: And [01:26:40] are a lot more kind of comfortable and it’s a bit more normal. But. Equally, [01:26:45] it is a shame that I probably have to go down that route in order to kind of keep [01:26:50] my career trajectory. But I also appreciate that’s life, [01:26:55] that’s biology, and there’s nothing really I can do about it. And it’s the sacrifice [01:27:00] I’m having to make. But it really it’s not really a sacrifice. Um, because I do have that [01:27:05] privilege of being able to do have other options. Um, but yeah, as I said, [01:27:10] everyone, everyone is different. And if you have that privilege to be able to do whatever you want to do [01:27:15] and live your life how you want to, I think just don’t listen to the outside noise [01:27:20] if there is any around you.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s my was.

Payman Langroudi: There a final.

Payman Langroudi: Piece of advice?

Anni Seaborne: Final one would be [01:27:25] something I’ve always. My mum used to drill into me was earn your luck and [01:27:30] idea. Behind that is you. Yes. [01:27:35] There’s lots of things, um, to luck and being in the right place, right time, knowing the right people. But you’ve [01:27:40] got to put yourself out there, um, and you’ve got to work hard if you actually want to make it turn [01:27:45] into anything.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely. What does your mum do? Your dad’s in [01:27:50] oil. What’s your mum.

Payman Langroudi: Do?

Anni Seaborne: My mum. So she was a teacher, but she taught English to [01:27:55] Malay students. So obviously when she came to England, it was a bit redundant. [01:28:00] She did a bit of primary school teaching, but.

Payman Langroudi: Otherwise she.

Payman Langroudi: Spent much time in Malaysia.

Anni Seaborne: Um, holidays. But [01:28:05] yeah, went went When this April.

Payman Langroudi: Which is lovely.

Anni Seaborne: It’s beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: They’re amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:28:10] been a massive pleasure. I really, really enjoyed it.

Payman Langroudi: Learned a.

Payman Langroudi: Lot. Learned a lot from you. Just the way you think about [01:28:15] stuff. Amazing. Really amazing. Thank you so much for coming on.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much for having me [01:28:20] as well.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:28:25] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:28:30] Your hosts Payman Langroudi [01:28:35] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got [01:28:40] this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay [01:28:45] for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because [01:28:50] I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [01:28:55] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out [01:29:00] of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is mind movers [00:00:10] moving the conversation forward on mental health [00:00:15] and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:00:20] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhonda Eskander: Today’s [00:00:25] guest is someone who’s moved through reinvention more than once, from a [00:00:30] singer songwriter to reality TV star to a transformational coach and speaker. Julius, [00:00:35] welcome to Mind Movers. The one of the best dental podcasts [00:00:40] in the UK. But what sets Julius apart isn’t his resume. [00:00:45] It’s the depth of reflection and truth he brings to every part of his journey, especially when [00:00:50] it comes to identity, emotional pain and healing. He’s become known for his wonderful content [00:00:55] on male vulnerability, toxic relationship patterns, and the importance of safe spaces, [00:01:00] and for helping others move from chaos to clarity in their own lives. So this conversation [00:01:05] is about the messy human stuff. Self-worth, performance. Heartbreak, [00:01:10] purpose, and the moment he stopped living for the outside world. So welcome, Julius. [00:01:15]

Julius Cowdrey: Thank you. You know, it’d be really nice if I could just wake up to that on repeat.

Rhonda Eskander: I [00:01:20] know, I know, sometimes it’s it’s weird having your, like, bio like, read back to you or like, what people say about [00:01:25] you. But, you know, I was lucky enough because Payman always says, like, how do you know this person? How do you know this person? [00:01:30] And I said I was on his mic. So for those of you haven’t seen it wasn’t like 2 million [00:01:35] views now. And it did well. Yeah, it did really well.

Julius Cowdrey: That was all you I try, I try and make a point of like [00:01:40] keeping it me to the question and then leaving you to to do well but like it’s those conversations [00:01:45] are amazing because they’re so raw. I started I started out going on the mic not for it wasn’t about gaining [00:01:50] more followers, it was about normalising conversation and just getting people to open up. And I went out on the mic into [00:01:55] Covent Garden with my friends. And you don’t mind standing behind the camera. And I stood there and [00:02:00] I asked about. Must have been 300 people. Would you answer a question? Would you answer a question? And [00:02:05] all all of the men just looked at me like I was asking for money. And [00:02:10] then, you know, 75% of women said, no, no, not for me, not for me, who are much nicer in that environment. [00:02:15] To be honest, I think I’d probably rush off and be like, ah, what is this about? And then and then [00:02:20] I got on an amazing Scottish older lady who answered a question on what [00:02:25] she wished she knew sooner. And it was a beautiful answer and it was so well received. I [00:02:30] just had to try and work out how I can sort of create my pitch better and actually get people to come on the mic, and [00:02:35] then I and then I started reaching out to people like you and, and people who have a voice are doing interesting [00:02:40] things. Um, and yeah, it’s.

Rhonda Eskander: I love it. And I want to kind of really delve into [00:02:45] sort of the human emotion that you capture so well on camera. So Payman said to me today, because [00:02:50] we usually start our format with something from the beginning, but he asked me to ask something [00:02:55] that maybe is something that we leave towards the end. What are you struggling with the most at [00:03:00] the moment?

Julius Cowdrey: You’ve got that from my my Instagram videos, haven’t you? That’s one of [00:03:05] my questions.

Rhonda Eskander: I didn’t I didn’t. No no, no.

Julius Cowdrey: Um, okay. I put [00:03:10] a lot of pressure on myself. Um, and I, I put a [00:03:15] very much a positive front, but I put a lot of pressure on myself to be successful. And [00:03:20] so I overwork, and often I fall to that side of [00:03:25] sort of saying no to no to the quote unquote fun stuff and hanging out with people. And [00:03:30] I feel like I might look forward and go, you missed out on the moment because you’re working so hard. But then I read books. [00:03:35] I read a lot of autobiographies of Steve Jobs and people like that, and they were just obsessive workers. [00:03:40] And their success is what, you know, came from it. There was a by-product of their hard work. So [00:03:45] then I sort of I think I tangled with that and um, and therefore and I think I put a lot [00:03:50] of pressure on my co-founder, co-founder and my brother as well on that. You know, we need to be working harder. We’re not doing enough. [00:03:55] So. So that’s I think that’s a bit of pressure that I put on. And therefore cortisol rises. I probably don’t [00:04:00] sleep as well. I’m you know, I’m trying to think of what I can do at 9:00 pm at night. So switching off is hard. Um, [00:04:05] for me. So that’s probably what I’m struggling with.

Payman Langroudi: Why do you think that is?

Julius Cowdrey: I think I just have a really [00:04:10] high bar. And it’s interesting because I talk to clients about this a lot and taking the [00:04:15] pressure off and leaving expectation at the door and making it and living in your purpose [00:04:20] and your drive, and actually that will drive you through. But I think, yeah, I think [00:04:25] I want a lot for myself. I want to provide um, I want to, to, [00:04:30] you know, attract an amazing woman. And I think she deserves that. If I’m deserves a provider [00:04:35] and someone and even though I want to meet level with my with my partner. Of course. But but yeah, [00:04:40] it’s it’s it’s interesting. I’ve seen I’ve seen a lot of success. I’ve seen my, my dad do amazing things. So I [00:04:45] think maybe that was my picture of, of success when I was growing up. Um, but [00:04:50] yeah, I also think with social media it’s very easy and this is such an obvious topic. [00:04:55] But success is so over. Glamorised and how running a Start-Up is so over Glamorised and [00:05:00] and you look at the you look at the 25 year old who’s made 100 million from selling his Start-Up or her Start-Up, [00:05:05] and and you hear about, you know, I went to an event the other day and I’m we’re trying to raise under a million for [00:05:10] our our Pre-seed Start-Up at the moment. And I met this woman who’s raised, just raised 600 [00:05:15] million pre-seed and she’s 26. And and so [00:05:20] that makes you sort of naturally because we’re we’re human, you know, because we’re human, we naturally compare. And [00:05:25] so then I’m naturally comparing, um, to that. And so I think taking [00:05:30] for me, the, the step is taking is taking a step back and actually realising [00:05:35] that I’m on the path, I’m doing the best I can and not putting pressure on myself. Interestingly, [00:05:40] the average path of an entrepreneur setting up a business and selling is 42 years old, sets [00:05:45] it up, sells at 57, not, sets it up at 20 and sells it at 26. [00:05:50] It’s just you only hear about those stories.

Payman Langroudi: How old are you?

Julius Cowdrey: I’m 32.

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah. [00:05:55] So there’s actually a lot of things to unpack in what you have just said that I want to go into. First of all, I think [00:06:00] what’s important is, is what you said about the pressure you’ve put on yourself to [00:06:05] provide. And I think that that’s quite difficult for a lot of men. I mean, I don’t know if it was the same [00:06:10] also when you were Julius’s age, but I think that ultimately [00:06:15] that’s also why women struggle to find men that they want to be in relationships [00:06:20] with. And I think it’s I don’t know if it’s necessarily a helpful narrative, because I think to some degree [00:06:25] we’re all work in progress as constantly, and the thought that we should all have [00:06:30] our shit together by the time that we’re 30 and every aspect of our life, and I’m talking about career [00:06:35] health, knowing what you want. And I have seen some of my friends, I’m lucky to be exposed [00:06:40] to a lot of influencers and so forth and celebrities and whatever that they feel that they’ve achieved [00:06:45] it all by 30 and then feel, okay. Now I need to settle down and find the perfect partner. If [00:06:50] you’re trying to meet that partner that ticks every box on every [00:06:55] level, that’s a huge amount of weight and a lot of pressure that you’re putting on yourself. [00:07:00] And I wonder today as well, because I know you’re a massive advocate of male mental health, [00:07:05] that the reason why a lot of men do not want to get into relationships, maybe because [00:07:10] of avoidant tendencies as they’re often accused of, but also because on some level they feel that they can’t [00:07:15] match the level that women want. You know, to provide for an entire family [00:07:20] is a lot. It’s not just providing for yourself. Can I go on interject?

Payman Langroudi: No, [00:07:25] no. But you know, you know, there’s that famous book or article that the [00:07:30] nurse wrote from the nursing homes, the palliative care centres. Everyone was [00:07:35] going to die.

Rhonda Eskander: Regrets?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rhonda Eskander: Deathbed regrets.

Payman Langroudi: Right. And and then it was [00:07:40] like the top five regrets that people had at the end of their lives. And there’s all the obvious kind of things [00:07:45] about too much time at work, losing friendships and family members. And the number [00:07:50] one one was about living for other people’s expectations or something. But the one I found [00:07:55] the most interesting about that one was it was like, I wish I’d allowed myself to be [00:08:00] more happy. It’s one of the top five regrets people [00:08:05] have on their deathbed. Yeah. And when I look back at my life, we’ve all had highs and lows and [00:08:10] all that, which I allowed myself to be more happy, man. Like contentment. Yeah. Yeah. Is [00:08:15] underrated. And somehow in tension with this. Work my ass off at 930 [00:08:20] at night to to get ahead.

Rhonda Eskander: To provide, to provide.

Payman Langroudi: But I do get it with your [00:08:25] granddad as captain of England. Right. That that that’s not normal behaviour. [00:08:30] That’s obsessive behaviour that makes you captain of England and cricket. Yeah. Maybe you saw [00:08:35] that. Maybe. Well.

Julius Cowdrey: I mean his so his grandfather. So my great great grandfather. [00:08:40] My great grandfather. So his father um called him Mick [00:08:45] Michael Colin Cowdrey because the home of cricket is Marylebone Cricket club. In [00:08:50] fact, he would make him bat with a with a railing by behind his back so [00:08:55] that he would only hit particular shots. I mean, there was an obsession from him. Um, my dad saw his [00:09:00] father for four Christmases growing up because he was playing cricket, and they were on boats [00:09:05] to Australia, not on planes back then. And and so I think my dad made a conscious decision [00:09:10] to be more present because that would never that had been a generational thing, not to be present. Um, [00:09:15] and yes, I’ve seen success. It’s it’s interesting when I, when I did the, the show, um, [00:09:20] when I did Maiden Chelsea, people always go, oh, it’s, you know, it’s quite a cool thing you’re [00:09:25] doing. And I never, I never really thought highly of it. And I think maybe it’s because I’ve seen crazy success. [00:09:30] My grandpa would he he would dine with the Queen once a month. I mean, he was friends with Nelson Mandela. He. The reason he [00:09:35] became a lord was because he helped bring South Africa back into sport from apartheid. He died [00:09:40] when I was 2000, I in 2000. I wish I could have known him. I was seven years old. Um, so I think [00:09:45] maybe it’s a reflection of what I’ve seen for sure. I mean, you can look on the other side. I’ve seen such healthy love [00:09:50] from my mom. And so I joked to my mom, I’d be like, you’ve definitely fucked me up, because I definitely assume that every [00:09:55] woman is is emotionally able and loving and sweet and kind and always, and calls me Angel.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:10:00] I’m Swedish.

Julius Cowdrey: My mom’s my mom’s Swedish, and she is possibly the most loving and kind woman on the [00:10:05] planet. I mean, what I’ve seen, um, and, um, I just, as a result, walk [00:10:10] into life with the assumption that every woman is, is capable of of honest, raw and [00:10:15] vulnerable love. And it’s and it wasn’t the case. And so my.

Rhonda Eskander: Dad did to me, ruined me, thought men were amazing. And I was [00:10:20] like, Jesus, gotten to where I’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Seen that hot, crazy access that.

Julius Cowdrey: No, I haven’t.

[TRANSITION]: Seen, you know, you [00:10:25] know it.

Rhonda Eskander: Like the hotter a girl is, the crazier she is.

[TRANSITION]: And you know, she might be a dude if she’s that [00:10:30] hot, you know, like that.

Julius Cowdrey: Well, I joked that, um, I go, I mean, I’ve [00:10:35] someone said the other day, you know, I actually met up with some old friends from school and they’re all [00:10:40] getting married apart from one, um, and, uh, three of them are them getting married this year. Others are getting married [00:10:45] next year. And there was me and this guy called Toby, who I’d known since I was 13. I went to school with him and I [00:10:50] said, I said, you’re doing any damage? And he went, no. He said, you know, and and my, [00:10:55] my experience of dating is I, I, you know, obviously wanting to get out there and [00:11:00] wanting to go on dates and I actually end up being very, um, take it or leave it. And this is, this is not me trying to be [00:11:05] judgy, but because this is definitely not mentioning all women, but I’ve on the dates that I’ve been to [00:11:10] where I’m with going on dates with beautiful women. Well, I think they are, um, I’m [00:11:15] actually off quite often, not matching humour. So I’m like, oh God, I’m a bit bored sitting here and [00:11:20] and a girl mate of mine said this. It’s because beautiful women haven’t had to try hard. [00:11:25]

[TRANSITION]: And that’s the same with.

Rhonda Eskander: Men, though.

Julius Cowdrey: I’m sure it is. I mean.

Rhonda Eskander: Listen, no, no, [00:11:30] no. Okay, I’ll let Julius finish.

Payman Langroudi: Men learn to be charming, man, because.

[TRANSITION]: No, no, no, I’m.

Rhonda Eskander: Gonna I’m gonna give you [00:11:35] real life examples, but go on.

Julius Cowdrey: Well, I can go.

[TRANSITION]: I can go on.

Julius Cowdrey: Because it’s [00:11:40] important I navigate through this because definitely not all women but I but I am I’ve found that [00:11:45] and I mean I was a little chubby kid, so I probably had to to create a person still.

[TRANSITION]: A chubby kid. [00:11:50]

Julius Cowdrey: No, you’re not, you’re not. Um, but, uh, I don’t know. I [00:11:55] mean, like, it’s interesting. It’s like how even if you’ve been fully loved growing up, I’m [00:12:00] sure there’s, um, there’s aspects of of of, you know, fucking you up. [00:12:05] And I think that’s probably a poor term. When I said that to my mom, she was like, I didn’t fuck anything up and all this.

[TRANSITION]: But yeah, I.

Rhonda Eskander: Totally [00:12:10] get it. Like, there’s actually a few things that I think resonate. Like people don’t talk enough about generational trauma and [00:12:15] how the impact of our ancestors, grandparents really affect us. I mean, Payman [00:12:20] has heard this a million times. So my my grandmother was Miss World, and [00:12:25] so as a result, she was actually quite narcissistic, um, because [00:12:30] everything was about the way she looked. People worshipped her. So she was Miss Lebanon. Everyone knew who she was. She was [00:12:35] a socialite. She wasn’t an emotionally available mother. So my my mother suffered [00:12:40] from kind of narcissistic abuse, and she she didn’t want my mother to flourish. But my mom [00:12:45] went on to go and be a model anyway because whatever, she had the DNA and [00:12:50] my mother, I think she didn’t have the tools available to her to ensure [00:12:55] that she didn’t project some of the things onto me and my sister, but I always say our parents do [00:13:00] the best they can with the tools that they have, and I think it’s important that we don’t blame them. But [00:13:05] it’s interesting because although my mom showers with me with love, I feel like it’s conditional [00:13:10] love in some instances. And what I mean by that is there’s this sort of like when I achieve [00:13:15] a lot, or there’s always a comment about the way I look, you know, make sure you do your hair [00:13:20] always look really well to do or whatever it is. And I’ve really seen that sort of infiltrate down. [00:13:25] So do you think, I mean, with your grandfather, you said that your father barely [00:13:30] saw him. Did your father also emulate that with you? And do you think that impacted you because you talk a lot about [00:13:35] the healthy dynamic and connection with your mum? But what about with your dad?

Julius Cowdrey: My dad was [00:13:40] very present, and he made a thing of it. Of being present. So he was at every game. Every. And [00:13:45] he. And he was an amazing dad. He was not a great husband. Um, and had multiple affairs and [00:13:50] that that’s that was super testing because you. I grew up seeing this when my [00:13:55] dad was my hero. You know, my mom was the the the loving, kind [00:14:00] person I could speak to and cry to if I needed to. And my, my dad was my hero. The games guy, the fun guy.

[TRANSITION]: The [00:14:05] stoic.

Julius Cowdrey: Yeah, sure. And and, um, and so when that [00:14:10] came crashing down and I it’s interesting when, if that is the case, I’ve spoken to a lot of people [00:14:15] about this because I’m, I’m, I’m open to talking about it because I’m, I don’t want to think it’s just me. And my brother [00:14:20] says the same thing, but I thought he was my absolute hero. Could do no wrong. Um, I thought the same about [00:14:25] my mom, actually, which is actually, I feel very fortunate to have thought that. But actually, we’re [00:14:30] so flawed and parents don’t know what they’re doing at the start. I mean, I wouldn’t know when I have my when I have kids [00:14:35] and what I’ll be doing. I mean, there’s no course in that. I mean, there’s no there’s no there’s no course [00:14:40] in mental health. There’s no course in trying to navigate your thoughts or trying to work out what the hell the [00:14:45] inner critic is doing when when you’re tested with pressure. So so I think yeah, [00:14:50] I’m, I’m, I definitely have empathy for, for my [00:14:55] parents and I definitely, um, it took a while to realise that they are flawed human beings. [00:15:00] Um, but, uh, and I think that just comes with compassion. And I think that’s [00:15:05] one of the things, even if you’re told a million times, it’s something you have to learn with wisdom.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, 100%, [00:15:10] I think.

Rhonda Eskander: And as I said to you, I think we all idolise our parents. We all put their children. You just do. I’m sure your parents [00:15:15] look, I’m sure your kids even look at you guys, like, you know everything. I think that’s a natural thing. I want to go back [00:15:20] a little bit to this sort of beauty versus effort thing. Okay, so I actually have [00:15:25] a friend of mine. I’m not going to go into too much detail, and he is one of the most beautiful [00:15:30] men you’ve ever seen in the entire world. As in, he walks in a room and everybody is just like [00:15:35] staring him. But however, he actually struggles to build connections and some of [00:15:40] my friends that were like, yeah, he’s beautiful. And then you start talking to him and he doesn’t really have much to say for himself. So it is true, [00:15:45] and I think that he’s never really had to make an effort. So you say, oh, they develop charm. I’m [00:15:50] like, I disagree. I think it works both ways.

Payman Langroudi: The point 1% of course.

Rhonda Eskander: But yeah, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: What women [00:15:55] with women it could be, you know, the 20% or whatever.

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah. But I think that also but [00:16:00] again, it really depends on what you desire in life and what your values are, because I also have [00:16:05] a couple of male friends that really do say to me, I want a girlfriend. That is a plus. [00:16:10] One is super young and super hot and they are happy with that.

Payman Langroudi: What they say to.

Rhonda Eskander: You, that is [00:16:15] what they say to me openly, right?

Julius Cowdrey: But I think that’s an unresolved man.

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah, maybe. Maybe. [00:16:20] But I’m saying cool like that is what they want and I’m not here to sort of judge it. I do also think, unfortunately [00:16:25] online there are extremely crude projections of what society [00:16:30] really wants. I had a little bit of a dispute with one of my friends two weeks ago because I don’t [00:16:35] know some YouTube guy. You might have even seen this. I didn’t know who it was. Created a graph for the desirability, [00:16:40] um, attractiveness and safety of a man, for example. [00:16:45] So the more the less attractive they are and the more safe they are, [00:16:50] the less you’re likely to want to go for them. Whereas, you know, if they’re on the really attractive scale but really [00:16:55] unsafe, you know, they’re under the fuckboy scale and you might find them attractive. It was just a really crude way [00:17:00] of representation. And then with women, it’s like the older they are, the less attractive they are [00:17:05] the body count. Do you know what I mean? I just feel like these things that people still project on social [00:17:10] media, huh? Clickbait. It is clickbait, but people believe it. People do [00:17:15] believe it. You think that everybody is educated. People will look at that stuff and go, this is how I [00:17:20] should be valuing.

Payman Langroudi: And the thing is, there’s a degree of truth in all generalisations, [00:17:25] right? So when you say people believe it to that extent, but people are you know, [00:17:30] people are much more I mean, watching your mix here. Sometimes you’re asking the same question or, [00:17:35] you know, similar relationship questions here, but you can’t help but keep watching [00:17:40] because in the end, we’re a species of like people who cooperate with each other [00:17:45] and interact with each other. We’re so interested in the relationship bit. You know, [00:17:50] the mic piece is how long has that been going on?

Julius Cowdrey: Just over a year, actually. Maybe [00:17:55] a year anniversary. Yeah, about a year. Um, [00:18:00] and I guess there are only so many questions you can ask to people you don’t know. And then I like asking questions [00:18:05] based on what that person, uh, does. So I think we spoke [00:18:10] about something around Dental star, but also I wanted to ask you a more a more personal question, I think. I [00:18:15] definitely I don’t share the questions which people are a bit like.

Payman Langroudi: Ahead of time.

Julius Cowdrey: I didn’t tell you the question, did [00:18:20] I? I asked you the question the moment because actually I’ve tried that and people end up trying to [00:18:25] rehearse this thing. They said in their head that it’s always better when it’s off the cuff and real and raw, and all I have to do is create a [00:18:30] safe space for them to feel comfortable with me. And if I haven’t, then that’s that’s. They probably [00:18:35] won’t allow themselves to be vulnerable enough. Um, but it’s been really cool. I mean, I asked a question to an amazing, [00:18:40] amazing woman yesterday. She’s a doctor, and I asked, you know, have you ever [00:18:45] received, um, online abuse? I actually didn’t know if that was going to cause [00:18:50] anything. I’ve received a lot of online abuse, death threats and all this stuff, so I just, I just said, have you ever received [00:18:55] it? And she and she went really open raw, and I didn’t know it was going to go there. So you never know where a question is going to [00:19:00] go. But I actually I’ve it’s been really well received and it’s really nice because it’s um, the [00:19:05] reason why I went there is because as a coach. So I’m working with clients, I was doing content, trying to be [00:19:10] like, how do I put content on? I want to build my personal brand. It’ll probably get me more clients, be good for my business. I’ll [00:19:15] get jobs from it. So I’ve got to continue building it, you know, and also redefine myself after a career [00:19:20] that was very misaligned and or just different to what I’m doing now.

Julius Cowdrey: Um, and I’ve started [00:19:25] putting content up like this. Um. Hey, guys, uh, here are three [00:19:30] ways to optimise your life. And or here are three ways to improve your morning routine. [00:19:35] All this stuff and it didn’t get it didn’t do very well. And then I saw someone’s [00:19:40] content that was near identical to that. I saw some bloke go, here [00:19:45] are three ways to improve your Night-Time routine and have a Lumi light and and do this and have a cold shower and leave the [00:19:50] window open and turn off the lights and all this. And in my head I was judging it and going, [00:19:55] fuck off. You don’t. You don’t know me. Why am I why would I listen to you? I was doing that in my head. [00:20:00] I was like, oh my God, that’s me. I’m doing that content. I’m doing the content because we don’t actually [00:20:05] put content. Well, I don’t for the people who know me, because 80% of the content that is consumed, [00:20:10] especially on my channel, is, is people. I don’t know if it’s a post with someone or post [00:20:15] without someone. Your content is mostly seen on the home page and by randoms. So I want them to [00:20:20] to connect. So how do I do that? Okay, I’ll go on to the streets and ask people questions. I won’t make it about me and [00:20:25] I can make it about just opening up conversation.

Rhonda Eskander: What I think the reason why I think the content [00:20:30] resonates so well, which is also what I recognise from my own platform, is there’s so much authenticity and [00:20:35] vulnerability. And I always say vulnerability is a superpower, which people really underestimate, [00:20:40] especially in our profession, because we’re taught that we have to be strong and that we’re healers in society. [00:20:45] So vulnerability is definitely seen as weakness in the Dental arena. And thank [00:20:50] God for mind movers because people have, you know, been suffering with addiction and so forth and said to Payman, [00:20:55] I want to come and talk about my story of how, you know, I had to go to the Priory in the middle of a working day because I [00:21:00] couldn’t take it anymore. And I think the conversations that you have are about that vulnerability. And I think [00:21:05] human connection is about vulnerability. It’s not about that polished, perfect image that people [00:21:10] are so worried about projecting. However, having said that, [00:21:15] why did you choose to go on Made in Chelsea?

Julius Cowdrey: I went to Chelsea because I was [00:21:20] a singer songwriter. Dauphin knew this, but I was releasing music and every show I [00:21:25] did, every gig I did, the only people who had come to it were my best mate, [00:21:30] my mum and my brother, if I could force him to. Um, [00:21:35] so the old man and his dog. Right? So I was going to these gigs. My first ever show was in South Woodford. I [00:21:40] was singing about love and my piano. I mean, we cringe looking back, but it was it was an era at [00:21:45] a time, um, and no one was coming. And I had I had on the same [00:21:50] in the same year. I had the option to go on Made in Chelsea or X factor, and I had a friend who [00:21:55] went on X factor and did really well, but said, please don’t go on it. They own you. They will. [00:22:00] They sign you up from even before you get onto the live shows. And it’s really, really damaging and [00:22:05] it’s not good. I spoke to another friend who’d been on it, said the same thing, and then I had the opportunity to be seen by [00:22:10] a million people every Monday. And, you know, it’s it doesn’t really matter if I do. Well [00:22:15] on the show was like this going on an X factor thing, I’d have to do well. And [00:22:20] what if I fail and all this? But that was just like, I just have to be myself and and just see what happens.

Julius Cowdrey: So my [00:22:25] and I had a manager at the time who said, you know, Julius will only come on the show if he sings on the first [00:22:30] episode. So I sang on the first episode to the to the at a at a party, and [00:22:35] my song went to number one on the singer songwriter singer songwriter charts. It’s called Seven Roads. Did [00:22:40] really well, actually. I was I did a gig a few years ago in Los Angeles, [00:22:45] and I got introduced as Julius Cowdrey, and they’re [00:22:50] very over the top, you know, TV personality. Um, welcome to the show. He beat [00:22:55] Ed Sheeran to number one. To be fair, he wasn’t British, he’s American. But I’m not gonna do the American [00:23:00] accent because I absolutely demoralised damage it. Um, welcome viewers to the stage. So [00:23:05] I got on stage and I had I had to quickly be like, okay, I beat Ed Sheeran that day to [00:23:10] number one. But the song that was in the singer songwriter Ed Sheeran released three years prior, and [00:23:15] it was like Tom Odell and Gabrielle Aplin. But I had basically it went to number one, the singer songwriter charts, which was quite fun. And then it [00:23:20] kind of became this opportunity and actually I started to It’s weird. I, I started [00:23:25] to really enjoy the show more because I felt more validated by what it gave me so I could see real [00:23:30] time validation of following.

Julius Cowdrey: Looking back on sort of my unevolved brain, back then, I [00:23:35] had a need for, uh, being validated from [00:23:40] others because I was really badly bullied when I was younger. So for me, it was like I just wanted to be liked. I [00:23:45] became a club promoter when I came to London first. So just because people needed me. Right. I can help you with everything you know. Be my friend. [00:23:50] Even if it was an acquaintance, they didn’t even like me. They needed me. So I had this. Like I just wanted to have [00:23:55] friends. And I go on the show and suddenly I have a following. Oh my God, it was like it was perfect for my ego at the time. It was not [00:24:00] healthy, but definitely what I thought I wanted or needed. Um, and then [00:24:05] I’m doing the show and then I release a song and suddenly the song does well. And then I get all these followers and I’m getting [00:24:10] paid by it as well. So I’m getting paid to just turn up and be myself. That’s weird. And actually, [00:24:15] yeah, I’ll stir the pot and do all the things the show want me to do, and it’s super unhealthy. And but at the time it was [00:24:20] filling this cup that, uh, that I had to really work. I didn’t realise [00:24:25] at the time was unhealthy.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve never watched it and I got.

Rhonda Eskander: Asked to.

Payman Langroudi: Be on it. The way you asked the question, [00:24:30] it sounds like like.

Rhonda Eskander: So.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a story.

Rhonda Eskander: People actually don’t know this, [00:24:35] but I think it’s one of the biggest regrets that I have, like of my life is not going on it. So I’m [00:24:40] going to just.

Julius Cowdrey: Still.

Rhonda Eskander: Going. Yeah, a bit old for that now, babe. I [00:24:45] got put forward. So I briefly dated someone that was part of the original roster, [00:24:50] um, when I was at Leeds. Um, and he was a different university and he had put me forward. [00:24:55] So it was the original cast, you know, Millie, Hugo, etc.. Um, and I remember at the [00:25:00] time, so I was at my first sort of NHS job, it was like a year after I qualified, and I just kept [00:25:05] thinking, oh, but what are people going to think of me? Because also at that time, social media hadn’t [00:25:10] really boomed and I was so afraid of what the Dental world would think of me, and I was so afraid [00:25:15] of not being taken seriously as a professional. And I was worried about my regulatory [00:25:20] body. I was worried about what it would mean for my career, my job prospects [00:25:25] and things like that. So all of this sort of fear held me back. And then I look now. [00:25:30]

Payman Langroudi: At.

Rhonda Eskander: It now, huh? Yeah. And I do regret it now. But I think that, like, I really kind of Julia [00:25:35] speaks to my heart because I do believe and it’s a bit of a controversial opinion, that [00:25:40] most people online or people that do put themselves out there, regardless of whether you’re [00:25:45] coming from a good place or not, do you still want validation in some sense [00:25:50] or form? Right? Because I know people in my friendship group, even my sister, for example, [00:25:55] who are super talented and super successful without being online. So we may justify it and say, [00:26:00] oh, you have to be online these days to make a business work and whatever. You don’t have to. I think that there [00:26:05] is an element of a certain type of person. I’m neurodivergent. I’m open [00:26:10] about that, that like needs that. And I think as a creative it is a good outlet to kind of get [00:26:15] that creative sort of output and get people to give you feedback, as it were. [00:26:20] But when I look back at the people that were on Made in Chelsea, I think to myself, my [00:26:25] gosh, they built something. Most of them, not all of them, are so great with their [00:26:30] careers, and that did give them the platform. And although I built something that I’m proud of, I [00:26:35] can’t help but think, could I have been more successful? That’s what I think.

Payman Langroudi: You know, the [00:26:40] when I was a dentist, one of the reasons I started this company was [00:26:45] because as a young man, as a young dentist, I thought, even [00:26:50] if I’m the best dentist in this whole town or in this hole, wherever it is, [00:26:55] my impact was only going to be like five mile radius of this practice, you [00:27:00] know, and, and, and then childishly thought, oh, if I’ll start a company, then my [00:27:05] impact could be all over the world or whatever. It was a childish impulse. Right now you [00:27:10] can, as a dentist, impact the whole world with social. Yeah. And that’s [00:27:15] an important release. Like if that’s who you are. If that’s the person you’re creative, [00:27:20] you know, like, you know what? In another world here, without a doctor, dad [00:27:25] and a middle eastern mum, you know, you might have been a, you know, like artist, you [00:27:30] might have been an actress or whatever it is.

Rhonda Eskander: I mean, look, I was amazing at English literature. [00:27:35] I was meant to go to Oxford. I told you, you know, my teachers all said she has to go to Oxbridge, study PPE, study English [00:27:40] or drama or whatever. My dad, being a middle eastern dad, was like, what’s she going to do with that? And listen, I’m [00:27:45] grateful to an extent, right? Because I’ve got a career now that’s going to take me through life. [00:27:50] And I do have the ability to express my entrepreneurship in different ways. As you know, I’ve [00:27:55] got a Start-Up as well, which we’ll go into later, kind of the Start-Up world, but I think it is interesting. [00:28:00] I think reality TV is something that I look at now and I’m like, [00:28:05] God, did I really miss out? And I don’t know if that’s also because society idolises TV [00:28:10] personalities. And I look at people and sometimes I think, gosh, if I was her, would I get all this validation? [00:28:15] Would I be told that I’m good enough? Would I be told I’m pretty enough? Would I be told all these things that I see them get? [00:28:20] Maybe you can tell me the reality, because I want to know a little bit about the dark side.

Julius Cowdrey: Okay. Before before I [00:28:25] tell you about the dark side. And there is a dark side. What what what is your conclusion of that? Are [00:28:30] you sat there thinking, lying in bed thinking, what if? And you will you for the rest of your life or or because the what if goes [00:28:35] both ways. The what if goes well? Oh, I could have been more successful. I could have had more eyes on me. [00:28:40] But the what if could have gone the other way. It might have been the dark side. Super challenging, [00:28:45] very damaging for your mental health. It might have actually probably at the start, especially [00:28:50] people not respected you because it was very much rich kids at the start. It’s not so much now. So [00:28:55] do you look at it as a regret, or do you look at it as something that maybe is a blessing? [00:29:00]

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah, you know what I mean.

Payman Langroudi: You just brought out something on channel four, right? It’s not like you’re not [00:29:05] doing that.

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah. I mean, but it’s a completely different thing. It’s a it’s a program. Do you know John Lancaster? He. [00:29:10] Yeah. Do you know him. He’s he’s he’s basically the TV presenter that was [00:29:15] born with a disease called Treacher Collins syndrome. So he his face is very [00:29:20] distinct. He’s done a lot with like lad Bible and so forth, and he talks about how his facial characteristics, [00:29:25] he learned to love them because his parents didn’t know that he was going to be born like that and abandoned him at [00:29:30] the hospital, put him up for adoption. And the adoption papers said they were horrified by his face. That’s literally [00:29:35] what it says. And now he’s an advocate for mental health. So as part of this amazing documentary [00:29:40] for channel four, where essentially people that have had really unfortunate things [00:29:45] happen to them, like there was a guy on there that his uncle was a schizophrenic, so threw petrol [00:29:50] and lit him alight. And he has all this scarring and so forth. So we were part of helping people [00:29:55] with the aesthetic side of things, and Jonno kind of helped them with the mental health side. So like, do [00:30:00] you want to change your face because maybe this is part of your story. But anyway, it’s it’s an amazing [00:30:05] documentary and I’m so proud to be part of that. And I’m so proud [00:30:10] to know that I can have that impact on people. But what makes me sad is that people [00:30:15] still put more importance and praise the superficial world, if that makes sense, [00:30:20] because the recognition I get from that is not the same recognition someone from Love Island gets, or [00:30:25] that’s how it feels, and that’s the honest truth.

Payman Langroudi: Well, it’ll never be enough then, you know? That’s the thing. [00:30:30] It’s a let’s go to the dark side.

Julius Cowdrey: It’s different. A different kind of recognition. Right? Um, [00:30:35] do you want the short term or the long term? Right. Do you want the one that’s respected or not? Do you want [00:30:40] the one that helps people or doesn’t? Yeah. Um, I think I think what’s acutely [00:30:45] obvious is that what you’re doing is impacting people. I’ve seen your social. I’ve seen what [00:30:50] you’re doing here. I’ve seen what you do by helping people with your practice. And clearly what you’re doing on the show [00:30:55] is it’s, uh, these are amazing things that you should be proud of. [00:31:00] Um, I always think what ifs are just so pointless. Yeah. Um, you know, people [00:31:05] ask me a lot. Are you. Do you regret doing the show? And I what? I’m going to go. Well, what if [00:31:10] I didn’t do it? Maybe people would have respected the fact that I. I had a music career because maybe, you know, it [00:31:15] tarnished me with this posh boy. Look, when maybe you didn’t. It didn’t really work that way. James Blunt got [00:31:20] turned down by 20 labels because he had a posh accent, and they asked him to change his accent. Then he had the most successful [00:31:25] album pretty much of all time until maybe Adele came around. Um, not a good time to maybe be posh [00:31:30] and an artist. Um, so I could look back. And what if I’ve definitely thought, what if of all these things, [00:31:35] did it impact me well, or did it? Did it not? I actually don’t think doing the show [00:31:40] is determines whether I will be successful or not, but I definitely think it gave me, um, a [00:31:45] I had to do a lot of growing up. Basically I was, I was.

Rhonda Eskander: During [00:31:50] or after.

Julius Cowdrey: Or just during and, and a little bit after as well. But like, I [00:31:55] didn’t really know about coaching and therapy was it was sort of everyone’s you got a therapist [00:32:00] is a bit of a red flag. What’s wrong with you that this country is still a bit like that?

Rhonda Eskander: Um, so how old were you when you [00:32:05] started therapy?

Julius Cowdrey: I’ve never had a therapist. I’ve had a coach. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but [00:32:10] I but I didn’t really realise there are other reasons for that. I didn’t really realise, I think I [00:32:15] needed it, and because it really wasn’t an outlook, it wasn’t something someone spoke. You spoke about my [00:32:20] my dad’s pretty stiff upper lip, doesn’t really talk about his emotions. And then I went to an all boys school where if [00:32:25] you talk about your emotions, you’re pathetic or weak or boarding school. Yeah. And so I [00:32:30] just. And I had to be very strong for my brother. My brother was going through some mental challenges. So I [00:32:35] was just like, I’m the one who’s okay, I’m fine. But really, I was covering up a.

Payman Langroudi: Would you put your kids in boarding school? [00:32:40]

Julius Cowdrey: Uh, probably not. No, I probably, I don’t know. We can talk about the schooling schooling system. [00:32:45] It didn’t suit me. I felt like a fish. There’s an amazing picture of Einstein [00:32:50] and Einstein quote, which is ask a fish to climb a tree and it’ll think it’s a stupid think [00:32:55] it’s an idiot for the rest of his life. I’ve definitely ruined that quote, but I went to [00:33:00] a very educational school when I was so creative. Um, and my skills were elsewhere. I mean, you [00:33:05] know, I emotionally, I have. I feel like I have a level of intelligence that maybe [00:33:10] most men don’t. I, I like to be with people. I like to surround myself with people. I like that aspect. [00:33:15] And I didn’t like the mathematical, uh, the test, the memory stuff. I, [00:33:20] I and and my brother would say the same thing. He was super sporty. Amazing with people. And [00:33:25] then he’s at this, this school. And that is really a business trying to get the highest grades so [00:33:30] that they can charge the most. And that’s what it was. And um, and so that was yeah, I felt very [00:33:35] different then. But to the mid and Chelsea dark side because [00:33:40] I don’t want to miss that. Um, I’d say about 90% [00:33:45] of people on that show that I’ve been through that experience with. And bear in mind, I’ve travelled [00:33:50] with them. I see them all the time. We have event days every single episode. Um, are [00:33:55] struggling. I’m struggling. I’m struggling with with generalised [00:34:00] anxiety disorder or something, or depression or this extreme almost [00:34:05] gets to obsession of I need to be validated at all times and my likes aren’t good enough [00:34:10] and and I don’t.

Julius Cowdrey: I look ugly and do I not look? And it’s because you’re, you know, you’re on camera [00:34:15] every single week and it’s coming out and it’s edited in a certain way that actually isn’t new, let’s be honest. Like it’s [00:34:20] that’s the that’s the really testing part. And I find I found really challenging is the it’s a [00:34:25] show just like school is a business. The show is an entertainment thing. It’s not everyone’s perfect [00:34:30] raw lives. And they they follow you around everywhere. We haven’t got a camera here watching us do this podcast. No, [00:34:35] it’s turn up here. We’re going to talk about this scenario. And if you don’t get involved then you won’t be filmed. So what do you [00:34:40] want to talk about? This stupid gossipy thing that you don’t actually give a fuck about. And then you talk about it and you [00:34:45] have to take it elsewhere because the whole thing is about gossip, and then you’re you’re sort of this dagger [00:34:50] through social media goes, well, why are you getting involved? You’re you’re this, you’re this, you’re this. And then if you don’t chat [00:34:55] to that girl and flirt with that girl, then you know, they’re not interested in filming with you. So it’s insanely [00:35:00] damaging and unhealthy. And there’s a reason why, if we talk about poor mental health in dentistry, poor [00:35:05] mental health in TV, and there’s enough people who have taken their lives for it to be for it to be a staggering issue. [00:35:10]

Julius Cowdrey: And yes, they’re doing better. And the and the programs, you know, you’ve got psychs on board [00:35:15] and things like that. But yeah, it gave me a lot of anxiety I had. When I get [00:35:20] anxiety, I have this sort of feeling like someone’s staring at me from behind me, like this feeling under my back. It’s really strange. [00:35:25] I don’t know if anyone else feels like that, and I would have that all the time, [00:35:30] and I’d have that going to bed. And and as a result, I was probably drinking more and, and and [00:35:35] so I had to do this sort of I had to grow through this. I left the show because it made me really unhappy. And [00:35:40] I had a girlfriend. I didn’t want to take that to the show. And then I went back to it and I was I felt like I’d [00:35:45] just gone all the way back and lost all the growth I had in between, because I was living in this [00:35:50] same fake reality of having to turn up every day and stir [00:35:55] a pot, and it’s incredibly challenging. And so I wish and the reason why I love coaching [00:36:00] is I love helping people through these things is I had to do it alone for five, six, eight, ten years. I [00:36:05] had to go from the the the boy who was bullied to try and work out why people would ever [00:36:10] like me to, then to then understand parental dynamics and all these different things [00:36:15] on my on my own.

Rhonda Eskander: You know what the thing is?

Julius Cowdrey: There’s not a sob story.

Rhonda Eskander: It’s just it’s just a [00:36:20] cool.

Julius Cowdrey: Realisation when you look back and be like, wow, I actually did that my own. But you can actually fast track it. You know.

Rhonda Eskander: I think that also like, [00:36:25] you know, the whole posh thing that’s really I think it’s a really important conversation and we talk about [00:36:30] that a lot. Payman because I think that particularly in the UK, there is this massive, [00:36:35] massive narrative about people that come from a certain type of privilege, look a certain [00:36:40] way. And the funny thing is because, like my backstory is that my parents came as immigrants, my dad came to the [00:36:45] UK with like £20 in his pocket. But people, I still get judgement, even from a major [00:36:50] TV channel, which I don’t know if I ever told you about because they’re like she’s just too posh. She [00:36:55] sounds really posh because I went to a private school, but people don’t know the journey about how I ended up in private [00:37:00] school, which was actually quite complicated with what my parents had to do because they couldn’t afford it. [00:37:05] And it does annoy me. And, you know, Payman always says to me, people also feel that, [00:37:10] you know, children that may have come from privilege don’t have a right to be successful. And if [00:37:15] they are successful, they immediately say it’s because of their parents, it’s because they came from money, which is really unfair [00:37:20] because, he said, sometimes they have to try even harder because they have to prove themselves even more. [00:37:25] So I think that that is something that needs to be challenged a little bit, and there shouldn’t be shame around. [00:37:30] Everybody has a degree of privilege. Even if somebody went to a state school, for example, you [00:37:35] could say they’re more privileged than someone that’s homeless. Do you see what I mean? And someone that’s homeless, someone who’s disabled and [00:37:40] homeless, you see privilege. It can keep going. And of course, we are extremely lucky [00:37:45] that all three of us went to private school, Highgate as well. Right? So all three of us went to a good private school. So of course [00:37:50] we have better opportunities. But that doesn’t mean that you don’t have your own challenges. That’s just my view. [00:37:55]

Julius Cowdrey: So an amazing image of, uh, of a helicopter flying and then the the [00:38:00] G wagon going, I wish I could be in a helicopter and then and then and then and then a [00:38:05] Volvo goes past and goes, I wish I could have a G wagon and then someone on a bike goes, I wish I could have a car. And then and then [00:38:10] someone walking goes, I wish I have a bike. And then the person who’s at the age 90 be able to walk goes, I wish I could [00:38:15] walk again.

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah, exactly.

Julius Cowdrey: And and it’s this endless comparison to others. I [00:38:20] think comparison can be healthy. But if if you know, you’re if you’re aware of it, you compare [00:38:25] and compare yourself to others. See where you stand. I don’t know if it’s always this unhealthy thing. [00:38:30] I think social media for sure. It’s I mean, sometimes I wish for us, I wish [00:38:35] I could be in like a, you know, caveman days, caveman days, and just be with a group of five people and just [00:38:40] be like, this is all I’ve got for the rest of my life. And, you know.

Rhonda Eskander: But that’s that’s what we were geared for as human [00:38:45] beings, you know, that is what we’re good for. But I think that you walking away from a TV show [00:38:50] that you recognise, no longer met your needs is extremely powerful and strong, because I would [00:38:55] say that people that keep going back, knowing that it’s not good for them, it’s a form of addiction, right? It’s a form of addiction, [00:39:00] and they can’t walk away from it, even though they know it’s not good for them. And so I think that’s amazing. [00:39:05] How then did you go into the coaching?

Julius Cowdrey: Sure. Yeah. For sure. [00:39:10] I agree with you completely by the addiction. It’s like and it’s also comfort as well. Like I can continue doing the show. [00:39:15] I know I can predict every next move and I’m doing the thing that isn’t the show is a risk. So I [00:39:20] know the reason why people stay in jobs that they don’t like. You heard of the region beta paradox. Whereas [00:39:25] this paradox that humans would actually be better off if things were awful because you’d make a change. So you [00:39:30] stay in the relationship that doesn’t serve you because they don’t ask you how you are and they don’t communicate with you. But if they were hitting you, you’d [00:39:35] probably make a change. You live in squalor at your house, but if the house was burning down, you’d probably hose it [00:39:40] down and be like, I need to sort this out. And the paradox is that we stay in things in this one life we’re living. We [00:39:45] stay in things that don’t serve us. I’ve stayed in relationships for far too long. When I was wildly [00:39:50] anxious and unhappy, and I’ve stayed in, I stayed in probably the show too long because it was just comfortable and easy, [00:39:55] and I knew the next move. It’s really hard to go off course because as humans, we’re wired for just predictable [00:40:00] predictability and comfort. Um, and, and I think it’s very easy [00:40:05] just to talk about it, but I think it’s like repping. You get used to kind of pushing, putting yourself [00:40:10] onto a different path. It just gets easier. Um.

Rhonda Eskander: But did you have a burning [00:40:15] house moment that pushed you to leave?

Julius Cowdrey: Um, I think it was a [00:40:20] I always feel like your intuition is like, um, someone knocking on the door from another room going, hey, [00:40:25] hey, hey, you shouldn’t be doing this, right. It’s like your authentic self [00:40:30] going, what are you doing? What are you doing? Why are you doing it? And I had that this rumbling for so long, um, um, [00:40:35] telling me, like, why are you doing this thing? It just felt so inauthentic and so out of my values. [00:40:40] I was doing this thing, but it was money. It was, uh, following growing [00:40:45] up. It was. I was doing brand campaigns, making me more money. It was I was I looked at it was very easy to [00:40:50] go. Oh, the positive. Just like race ship. Right. Well, you know, she’s she is nice on weekends and [00:40:55] and you know, and she’s beautiful and you know, when we when we’re intimate it’s great. But all these [00:41:00] but the problem is most of the time I wasn’t happy and it was this, this thing. So what [00:41:05] we just spoke about, I was just so comfortable in this place that didn’t serve me. [00:41:10] And I knew I was destined for more and destined for something else destined for. And like I said, [00:41:15] I with the show. I never thought highly of it. I guess maybe because I’d seen success in the Paramount success [00:41:20] growing up that, um, yeah, it just didn’t, um, it just was so misaligned [00:41:25] and I had it.

Julius Cowdrey: But it’s really hard because people stay on that show forever, and then they suddenly get to 40 and [00:41:30] they’re and they’re like, oh my God, I haven’t done anything with my life. I realised I wasn’t really doing anything in my life, even [00:41:35] though I thought I was. I didn’t know what hard work was until I left and had to set up a business and see it [00:41:40] failed at Covid. So that’s what happened. I set up a social media agency, influencer [00:41:45] agency, and I worked with this amazing girl, Emily, and it was going really well. And then Covid lost all my clients. So [00:41:50] I failed because of the time. And but it was a blessing in disguise. My brother had [00:41:55] started coaching because he wanted to help others. He’d been through very tough times emotionally, [00:42:00] mentally and he wanted to help people. So he trained to become a coach and [00:42:05] I saw how much value it gave him. So I was like, he’s like, just train. Because even if you train, you’ll [00:42:10] learn so much about yourself. Yeah. I was like, that’s interesting. Why? He said, well, the art of art, of [00:42:15] body language, asking great questions, being objective, all these things. Even if I didn’t become a coach, that [00:42:20] course was incredible. So I trained and I put it out on my social media. [00:42:25] Does anyone want to be coached by me? I think I felt massive unease about it because, you know, [00:42:30] what’s the what? What’s it called when you don’t think you should be there? Imposter syndrome.

Julius Cowdrey: I always forget that. So I definitely had [00:42:35] some form of imposter syndrome for sure, because you always do when you’re pushing yourself out the boundary. Um, and [00:42:40] I had an unbelievable experience with my first client. Um, I didn’t take anyone else on. [00:42:45] I, you know, she had been very, very unhappy, um, very wounded and [00:42:50] lots of trauma. And it was probably a bit past what I was capable of, but I had to lean in [00:42:55] and just do the best I could and had an amazing experience. So then I went, okay, well, this is this is [00:43:00] amazing. I feel again, this I feel like I’m supposed to be here for the. Actually, for the first time, I thought, [00:43:05] I’m supposed to be here. This is what I’m supposed to do. I thought it was music, but it didn’t really make me happy. I thought it was the show [00:43:10] because this was this new TV thing that I thought it was filling my cup at the time that was obviously [00:43:15] wounded, insecure person. And then the suddenly I was doing the social media and see [00:43:20] what failed. Oh my God. And then I coached and it started to feel like, this is why I’m here. I’m supposed [00:43:25] to help people, I’m supposed to help change people’s lives.

Rhonda Eskander: But don’t you think that’s what [00:43:30] everyone feels that they’re meant to do? Like, do you not think that all the professions in the world that people feel [00:43:35] most aligned to being in is where they’re helping people? Do [00:43:40] you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but I know, I mean, I think all dentists can [00:43:45] resonate with what you said. Yeah. When you, when you get a patient who walks out and gives you like a [00:43:50] real genuine thank you.

Rhonda Eskander: Hug.

Payman Langroudi: Hug. And in your [00:43:55] case there’s tears and like but but.

[TRANSITION]: The ceremony.

Payman Langroudi: The the the genuine [00:44:00] thank you is more valuable than your paycheque, your social [00:44:05] standing, your. It’s such a, you know, helping someone else is such a beautiful thing. [00:44:10] At the same time, I don’t think all professionals I mean some, some guy might just love [00:44:15] carving, carving wood or something and just adores it, you know, like it gets into his zone. [00:44:20] Go ahead.

Julius Cowdrey: Yeah. Can I ask you a question? Do you think do you feel supported in this country. [00:44:25]

Payman Langroudi: In the country?

[TRANSITION]: But that goes.

Rhonda Eskander: Back to the whole thing of like privilege as.

[TRANSITION]: Well in the.

Payman Langroudi: Country.

Julius Cowdrey: This country.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, [00:44:30] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: By the government.

Julius Cowdrey: Uk.

[TRANSITION]: Do you feel.

Julius Cowdrey: Like people do you feel by people. Yeah. I guess [00:44:35] you can say we can, we can talk about the government but I’m not really. No well advised enough to talk about that.

[TRANSITION]: So [00:44:40] you had it in your.

Payman Langroudi: Post about Dubai being more supportive.

[TRANSITION]: Than.

Rhonda Eskander: It was so controversial. My post about Dubai [00:44:45] because Dubai being Dubai, I mean, essentially I’ve got friends that live in Dubai, Um, a lot of my [00:44:50] kind of. I’ve got my Middle Eastern friends that grew up there. So my Egyptian, Lebanese kind [00:44:55] of family, friends that their families moved there for whatever reason. So I’ve been going there for like 12 years before [00:45:00] there was the kind of British exodus. And then I’ve got some of my friends that have been expats in like [00:45:05] Singapore, Hong Kong, etc. and moved to Dubai. People always gave Dubai a really negative press [00:45:10] because they were like, oh, it’s so, um, superficial. It’s so, um, [00:45:15] it’s so based on, you know, money and looks and nothing is real. And I [00:45:20] went back a few months ago and my experience was totally the opposite of that. And there’s [00:45:25] a number of reasons why. And maybe they are selfish reasons. Number one, I felt that the [00:45:30] entrepreneur world was much more supported. So what you’re talking [00:45:35] about now in the UK is like they want to see businesses do well. And of course [00:45:40] the tax implications incentivise people more.

Rhonda Eskander: But there is this [00:45:45] real community of Of entrepreneurs. And what I find, sadly in the UK, I [00:45:50] don’t know if it’s becoming like this or it was always like this. People want [00:45:55] to see you do well, but there’s a bottleneck. So there’s like, okay, you can do this well and it’s definitely being [00:46:00] a business owner. I feel this because there’s a certain amount of income that if you earn over that, [00:46:05] you’re like, what’s the flipping point now. Because tax. Well yeah. And it’s just like and you know, having [00:46:10] so many members of staff and National Insurance. So yeah, that is a bit of a government argument. But [00:46:15] in general the community I feel is less than somewhere like [00:46:20] Dubai. And it was interesting because this was echoed by lots of entrepreneurs online. [00:46:25] Like Professor Galloway went on and said exactly the same thing. There was another British entrepreneur that I can’t remember, [00:46:30] and he was saying, it is so much harder to succeed in the UK than it is in the US and [00:46:35] Dubai, and that is why people are choosing to have.

[TRANSITION]: Businesses as.

Rhonda Eskander: An entrepreneur now, [00:46:40] the superficiality element, I’d say London is pretty superficial [00:46:45] as well. Sure, you have the contrast and the juxtaposition [00:46:50] of the different classes. You know, I live in Notting Hill, so of course, you know, you get [00:46:55] all walks of life in Notting Hill, as you know. But at the same time, and in Dubai, I [00:47:00] think.

[TRANSITION]: London.

Payman Langroudi: Is not superficial. And like on the, in the.

[TRANSITION]: World.

Rhonda Eskander: Maybe [00:47:05] in the social media world, maybe in.

[TRANSITION]: My kind of worlds.

Payman Langroudi: Scale. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Like, can.

Julius Cowdrey: You hide from it now [00:47:10] anyway?

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah, exactly.

Julius Cowdrey: There’s a there’s a jemmy. Carter said this. He [00:47:15] said, um, people what did he say? He said people. Um. [00:47:20] Oh, I can’t remember. Fuck. It’s like people want you to dream, right? [00:47:25] But people like to see someone going for it because it reminds them of their dreams. But people don’t like to see someone [00:47:30] do well because it reminds them of what they didn’t do with their lives. Yeah. And I think it’s really interesting. And I feel like [00:47:35] I feel very unsupported here. Right. I only because I have something [00:47:40] to compare it to. So you’ve been to Dubai, you feel like you’ve got this support and it’s fine, selfish reasons. Let me be selfish for a moment [00:47:45] to say, I went to San Francisco and Los Angeles and New York, and I go there and there are people [00:47:50] who you don’t know supporting you more than the people you’ve known for 20 years. I have friends I’ve known for all my life who haven’t [00:47:55] asked me about my business, and they know what’s happening. Who don’t, who don’t like the things online, who don’t say, oh, wait, I love what [00:48:00] you’re doing. Um, and it’s the reason why it’s driving. What a millionaire. Every 45 [00:48:05] minutes leaves the country. Not just because taxes are a joke, but also because people [00:48:10] kind of hate on you a little bit when you’re pushing outside the comfort zone or they go quiet. Um, and it’s [00:48:15] it’s actually very, very strange. I don’t I don’t particularly like it, don’t feel supported. And I go to a country where I [00:48:20] know no one, and I feel suddenly I’ve got people around me that want to back me and go, wow, you want to do that? [00:48:25] You know.

Rhonda Eskander: I’ll introduce you to this person. I’ll give you this contact.

[TRANSITION]: It happens.

Julius Cowdrey: Do you [00:48:30] know my perfect example? I asked a friend of mine who went for a catch up the other day, and I said [00:48:35] to her, let me give you the perfect example. My dad is Quentin Tarantino. We’ve just met and you’re an actress. [00:48:40] Obviously you are. And and, uh, you know, we’ve just met. Hi. Nice to meet you. Blah, blah. I’m an actress. [00:48:45] Oh, cool. In the UK. Nice. How’s it going? Yeah. Tough industry, isn’t it? [00:48:50] You. I mean, there’s a lot of people doing very saturated. Like, are you getting any jobs? So [00:48:55] true. San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York. My experience. Dubai. Probably yours. The exact same thing. It’s like, [00:49:00] oh, you know, I have some contacts. Like I can help. My dad’s pretty well [00:49:05] connected, you know, but I know lots of people. Can I help? And it’s the same thing [00:49:10] with investment. Someone said the other day, this is a perfect example. Investors in the UK are trying [00:49:15] to say no. Investors in Dubai. Definitely Dubai, San Francisco, [00:49:20] places like that. They’re trying to say yes, it’s this. It’s this amazing environment where you suddenly [00:49:25] feel bolstered up.

Rhonda Eskander: You feel, you know, so, so I obviously am so lucky to get asked to [00:49:30] do. I obviously work really hard to gain a position to be an expert on daytime television and [00:49:35] the morning shows and so forth. I won’t name the specific channel. It’s not ITV this [00:49:40] morning. Um, but because I love them and I still with them all the time. So [00:49:45] I went on and I went. So I went on another morning show. And look, I am [00:49:50] the way that I am. I look the way that I am. And they wanted me to talk about oral hygiene [00:49:55] advice or whatever. I went on the TV presenters loved me and someone [00:50:00] sent me a message, and then went on to write to the channel to say that I wasn’t suitable [00:50:05] to represent healthcare because I didn’t look like your typical Florence Nightingale [00:50:10] figure, and that this country needs more healthcare care professionals [00:50:15] that are less glamorous and less attractive. And I was like, what? You know, [00:50:20] like the fact that someone went out of their way to write that and the healthcare system [00:50:25] in the UK, obviously we’re super privileged to have it, but the narrative that you have [00:50:30] to look a certain way to give advice.

[TRANSITION]: But.

Payman Langroudi: Still man it. Do you know what I mean by that? [00:50:35] Like say, say like make the case for that person.

[TRANSITION]: What do you mean?

Payman Langroudi: Was there no [00:50:40] case at all?

Rhonda Eskander: What? Make the case? In what way?

Julius Cowdrey: Like, tell us why they would say.

[TRANSITION]: Like what?

Payman Langroudi: Why would someone say that? [00:50:45]

Rhonda Eskander: Because of the way I look.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhonda Eskander: Which is not justified.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, no. But if it was just like, [00:50:50] what would be the justification for.

[TRANSITION]: What was her?

Julius Cowdrey: What was that person’s justification? Why do they need you to look a certain way?

[TRANSITION]: No.

Payman Langroudi: Like, [00:50:55] listen, I’m take it away from you. It’s not you. Yeah. If one believes that [00:51:00] stuff has moved on too quickly, that even doctors now are showing [00:51:05] up with their hair, all done talking about glamorous things. Even the police or whatever. Whatever. [00:51:10] You know what I mean. Like, of course, you can highlight if this [00:51:15] person’s life is so boring that she takes time out to make a quote about me, she must be a sad. Of course [00:51:20] you say that. But but the what was the sentiment behind that [00:51:25] is an important thing, because maybe 11% of the population [00:51:30] thinks that. Yeah. Not just this one sad person. Yeah.

Rhonda Eskander: Okay. I [00:51:35] agree with you, but I would I still think that.

[TRANSITION]: I’m it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Important to steel man it in your own head.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I agree. I’m [00:51:40] not saying this was the right or wrong thing.

Rhonda Eskander: Self-reflection is really important, but I’m still in agreement with Julius that the underlying [00:51:45] I don’t have that problem. I don’t feel that problem with my colleagues in Dubai, [00:51:50] in America and so forth. I mean, look, I’m not even I even got a tabloid [00:51:55] came out. I didn’t even tell you that sensationalised something that I said, and the [00:52:00] headline was so horrific that I had to basically threaten them. They wanted me to tell the whole story about how my [00:52:05] dad came as an immigrant, and how I built this practice. They sold it to me. It’s like we want to write about like female empowerment [00:52:10] and how women can do this, etc. and then when it came out, they they had [00:52:15] taken things that I said and put the headline is immigrant daughter comes [00:52:20] to the UK and now owns a multi blah blah blah practice. And I was like, first of all this [00:52:25] is all lies. And they did take it down. But I was like, why are they trying to create an in the media is another [00:52:30] thing altogether. Why are they trying to create this like hate and animosity?

[TRANSITION]: You know.

Payman Langroudi: Algorithms work that.

[TRANSITION]: Way. But [00:52:35] but I’m amazed you still have that headline in Dubai or America.

Rhonda Eskander: You just wouldn’t. Do you know what I mean? Like, this person [00:52:40] is now running a private practice. Do you know what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: You know what? You know what? Yeah. You [00:52:45] know. You know, you have a friend who’s, like, super positive. Someone like you, someone super positive, [00:52:50] you know, who’s always looking for the best things and stuff. And then you have got that other friend who’s quite good [00:52:55] at telling you what she hates about something. Yeah, I don’t like those people [00:53:00] around me too much, but they’re good at that. And Britain’s a bit like that. We’re good at saying what’s pissing [00:53:05] you off? What’s pissing me off?

Julius Cowdrey: It’s the reason why people love the sob story [00:53:10] is because it allows them to. Mm. Okay. So it allows them to. And the reason why they like [00:53:15] people, like watching reality TV and people fuck up. Excuse my language. And the reason why people [00:53:20] like seeing shit on the news. I’m swearing a lot today, um, is because it [00:53:25] makes them feel better about their life. That is pretty distinctly average. I’m really I’m really [00:53:30] like, there are a lot of people who don’t. The reason why they like to see the person fail, especially in this country, is because [00:53:35] it makes them go, wow, I should. I stayed in that job. I stayed in the comfortable thing. I [00:53:40] was right to, you know, look at that person who went out the comfort zone. And they’re probably not feeling very happy [00:53:45] with their lives and they haven’t achieved what I’ve achieved. So, so. But it’s all about the [00:53:50] the inner sort of reflection, isn’t it? It is. It’s like Americans, America, [00:53:55] everyone who went to America, everyone in America is our immigrants, right? Everyone. The place was completely [00:54:00] stark land and there were Indians and going around. I’m pretty sure I’m allowed to say that, [00:54:05] but, um. And double check. Yeah, whatever. But anyway.

[TRANSITION]: It was Native American.

Julius Cowdrey: Native, [00:54:10] Native Americans. It was completely empty wasteland, pretty much. And then everyone who’s ever gone is is [00:54:15] gone. I want a better life. So, like, let’s dream. It’s like the American dream. Let’s go [00:54:20] for it. Whereas actually, looking back, um, you were poor if you worked [00:54:25] in the UK. It comes from this, like all the way social thing, all the way back where royalty, royalty didn’t work, [00:54:30] the aristocrats didn’t work, and the paupers worked. So I [00:54:35] think there’s a it’s not a let’s go get it. Let’s dream. Let’s believe in each other. It’s like if someone does [00:54:40] better, it reminds me of how worthless I am. And it all comes to our own inner [00:54:45] stuff because most people are unevolved.

Payman Langroudi: Although there are downsides to the American.

[TRANSITION]: Way, [00:54:50] as you say.

Rhonda Eskander: Have you seen or read death of a salesman?

[TRANSITION]: No.

Rhonda Eskander: Oh, you really should. It’s really, really good. [00:54:55] It’s Arthur Miller, I don’t know if you know it. And obviously Arthur Miller had an obsession with the theme of the American Dream, [00:55:00] but the theme of the hard working man who did not fulfil the American dream. So there [00:55:05] is that dark side of it as well. And of course, as we know, the healthcare system in America, you will literally [00:55:10] die if you can’t afford treatment. So, you know, there is that. But I think we are talking from a place of [00:55:15] entrepreneurship and somebody that is hard and is willing to put in the work and doesn’t want to [00:55:20] be stigmatised for what school they went to or what they look like. And that’s what I feel. I feel the [00:55:25] American dream in that sense. And the Dubai dream now is encouraging people [00:55:30] that want to work hard. That’s the way that I see it.

[TRANSITION]: The way, by the way.

Payman Langroudi: South by southwest. [00:55:35] Come to London. South by southwest is a massive, like, um.

Julius Cowdrey: It’s [00:55:40] like a.

[TRANSITION]: Tech.

Payman Langroudi: Tech.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Culture. Whatever. Like, there is this change happening [00:55:45] here too, right? It’s all around Shoreditch, right?

Julius Cowdrey: I think London is the best place to live in the world for three [00:55:50] months of the year.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. Agreed? Agreed.

Julius Cowdrey: Honestly, I guess the summer I’m like, this is why I’m [00:55:55] here. I’m making a swift exit as soon as I can. But visas are really hard in America. But.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:56:00] so are you moving?

Julius Cowdrey: Yeah, that’s the plan. That’s the plan.

[TRANSITION]: So tell.

Rhonda Eskander: Us then. So once you decided, [00:56:05] you know, you found your happy space with coaching, you were able to have a really profound effect on [00:56:10] people’s lives. I know that your brother does it as well. I actually have something to ask you about twins [00:56:15] because I’m quite fascinated by twins. I read loads of studies on it because I just think it’s really incredible. [00:56:20] People say that having twins, having a twin can have a massive impact [00:56:25] on your mental health. And this is I’m talking about kind of like scientific studies, not just Anecdotally, [00:56:30] what is your experience as being a twin?

Julius Cowdrey: I’ve always had a best [00:56:35] friend at my at my side. It’s actually the the greatest gift I’ve [00:56:40] ever had. Actually, we I never.

Rhonda Eskander: Even growing up as a little boy. Yeah.

Julius Cowdrey: In [00:56:45] fact, we probably isolated ourselves together because we just always had each other. Yeah. You know, we we [00:56:50] were in different dorm rooms, and we’re begging just to be next to each other, so. Yeah, we’re we’ve we’ve [00:56:55] just always got on so well. And through his stuff, I’ve always been there and through my stuff he’s always it’s like [00:57:00] this innate like love really that I feel very grateful for the fact that we [00:57:05] ended up going on these weird lives, and then coming back together and now working together is awesome. [00:57:10] He really pisses me off sometimes. And ditto likewise for him. With me, no [00:57:15] doubt. But, um, it’s so unrequited and unconditional that I just it is the greatest thing [00:57:20] I a lot of people ask, you know, do you think each other’s thoughts? I know, you know, do you think the same thing? [00:57:25] And can you get when you’ve grown up with someone and you’ve completely, like, [00:57:30] lived such a unique like the certainly the same unique experience together growing [00:57:35] up. Yeah. Find the same nurture. Um, you know each [00:57:40] other so well, you know, you know, a partner if you’ve if you’ve gone out with them for ten years. But I’ve known him since I was, you [00:57:45] know, de dot. Um, so it’s a pretty amazing experience. [00:57:50]

Rhonda Eskander: You’re non-identical. Right?

Julius Cowdrey: Non-identical?

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that makes a difference?

Julius Cowdrey: Yes, I [00:57:55] well, I don’t know. I mean, we’re not. Yeah. We so we don’t have the same, um, DNA. [00:58:00] Completely.

Rhonda Eskander: Um, do you think that that helps them with the sort of identity piece, you know, because [00:58:05] we had we had a twin on here once, and he struggled. Identical twin. Um, and there [00:58:10] was a struggle, you know, with.

Julius Cowdrey: Identical twins who don’t speak to each other. Um, my, my dad is best friends [00:58:15] with one of the twins, and the other one lives abroad, and they don’t speak to each other. I, we [00:58:20] we were always put in different colours and we were never made to wear the same things. And, you know, you do. You [00:58:25] do that sport and you try this thing, or you try guitar and you try piano. So it was very much like, you [00:58:30] know, do different things. Um, you try French, you try Spanish. Just it was never [00:58:35] let’s pop you up against each other and and let’s see who wins. It was never, like, overly [00:58:40] like that. Uh, in fact, when growing up in this sort of cricket dynasty thing, our family. [00:58:45] Family didn’t want us to go into sport. Fabian went into it in the end, but it was very much like, [00:58:50] let’s, let’s. We don’t have to follow that path. Um, but yeah.

Rhonda Eskander: So talk to us [00:58:55] about how then the business developed. What’s it called and what does it offer?

Julius Cowdrey: It’s had it’s had [00:59:00] a few. Yeah. It’s developed from it’s interesting being an entrepreneur [00:59:05] and actually just constantly trying to solve problems, as you know. And we set up the company. [00:59:10] The reason why we set up the company is because we were coaching combined ten years. [00:59:15] We’re both coaching for about 4 or 5 years, each of us. And um, even just a little bit longer me just a little shorter. And [00:59:20] um, it was going really well, but we were turning clients down all the time because they couldn’t afford it. [00:59:25] I know my value. So this is how much I cost and a lot of people couldn’t afford it. And because I have a personal brand and so does [00:59:30] he. It wasn’t hard for people to get in touch, but we’re constantly having amazing conversations with people. How about they want to [00:59:35] change their life on these discovery calls, and then they can’t commit because they can’t afford it. And but I know my [00:59:40] value as a coach and people will be able to pay that one day. My client. Um, I [00:59:45] just had had 2 or 3 sessions with, so I was about three weeks in, told me that [00:59:50] if his parents couldn’t afford the one on one, he would have taken his life, which [00:59:55] was pretty stark, because the reason why I got into coaching was because of my friend who took his life. So [01:00:00] I went home to Fabian that day and I said, how many people have you turned [01:00:05] down this month? He said, five.

Julius Cowdrey: It was annoying. It was annoying as a coach, because we could work with more people and help more people, [01:00:10] and the whole point was impacting more people. But we’re charging this astronomical price because that’s what coaches do. And [01:00:15] I said, me too. I’ve probably turned on or turned down about the same three this week, in fact. [01:00:20] What if my client was one of those ten? You say, fuck, [01:00:25] what do you do? I say, well, let’s put them in charge. Let’s put them in a group. Let’s put them in a group [01:00:30] of ten. Let’s charge instead of three figures a week, let’s charge £40 a week, and then. And [01:00:35] then let’s have a WhatsApp group and meet every week. And different sessions will have different topics. And, and we’ll be there [01:00:40] for them and we’ll support them. And they thrived. I mean, transformed as quick as the one on [01:00:45] one. It was pretty stark because they had this support group. A lot of people are isolated, and then when they’re out of [01:00:50] that isolation, they realise they weren’t actually that fucked up as they thought they were. You know, I fucked up. I’ve got anxious, [01:00:55] I’m all these things. But actually they were lonely. I find that with clients, as soon as they just let things, let let the [01:01:00] steam out.

[TRANSITION]: They say therapy.

Payman Langroudi: Group therapy is such an interesting thing because you immediately [01:01:05] see, it’s not just me.

[TRANSITION]: It’s.

Julius Cowdrey: Not just.

[TRANSITION]: Me.

Payman Langroudi: These other people are going through the same thing.

Julius Cowdrey: It [01:01:10] was all about community. And so we did that with a group and then another group, and then another group, and we worked with five groups [01:01:15] of ten. We realised very quickly that we were helping by charging less, and we’re also making more [01:01:20] per the hour. So we’re like, this is more than just a humanitarian thing helping more. It’s actually a business, but [01:01:25] we’re exhausted and burnt out. Now we’re doing our one on one clients. We’re trying to, you know, navigate [01:01:30] life as it was. And then we were doing all these groups. How do we become the [01:01:35] platform that allows people to find communities from all aspects of health and wellness? I mean, it’s [01:01:40] so broad and and vast, isn’t it? Um, and so we set up Safe Space [01:01:45] that became Macho Coach, which is now joiner. And we had to have a year of proving [01:01:50] concept. Is this what people want? Do coaches want this? Do users want this? Do people stay? Is [01:01:55] the retention rate high enough? Like what is the how much should this cost? So we we used WhatsApp to [01:02:00] basically prove product market fit and that it works. Now in a in a country [01:02:05] where you say coach or therapist and people go, oh, there’s something wrong with you. Um, it [01:02:10] was challenging, but you know, we’d have to do lots of free trials.

Julius Cowdrey: But once people were in, they loved it. And we had a very [01:02:15] high not people didn’t leave. And if they left, it was because it was on WhatsApp. It was always the issue. We used WhatsApp [01:02:20] just to prove it. And so the coach would take a session on zoom, save their content on Google Drive, [01:02:25] use calendar to set it up, and then have WhatsApp for the chat. It was nothing. No all in one, [01:02:30] and there are a lot of all in one platforms. So after proving it, we’re now raising money and we’ve raised [01:02:35] half of our raise, which is really exciting to not only take it to America, to a to a [01:02:40] world which they’re 20 years ahead when it comes to self development awareness, and they actually accept it. But a [01:02:45] progressive web app, essentially a place where any [01:02:50] health and wellness professional can host their communities, drive volume by charging less. [01:02:55] We’ve worked out we’re creating about a 95% reduction in cost monthly. [01:03:00] Amazing. So usually it’s $800 to work with a coach, say on average it’s $40 [01:03:05] a month, um, versus 800. It’s and we’re [01:03:10] finally giving people the access to work with elite amazing experts. And [01:03:15] um, so that’s so after a year we’re now. Yeah, we’re doing that. So it’s very exciting. It’s very, very exciting. [01:03:20]

Payman Langroudi: Did you go into an accelerator?

[TRANSITION]: No we haven’t.

Julius Cowdrey: We haven’t done the accelerator.

Payman Langroudi: So so [01:03:25] explain, explain. There must be many people listening to this who’ve got a business idea. Yeah, [01:03:30] and the idea of raising money seems totally foreign.

[TRANSITION]: Oh. [01:03:35]

Payman Langroudi: How did you go from being that person? Which you must have been at some point to this person who’s [01:03:40] now raising money and all that?

Julius Cowdrey: Yeah. So running a Start-Up is is endless, endless, [01:03:45] endless problem solving just the whole time, which I really like because I like getting to the crux of it. Fabian’s [01:03:50] more impatient than I am. So when it’s things like tech or anything like that, I just leave it to me. Um, [01:03:55] and he’s great at other things that I’m not so good at, so it works well. Raising money is not like Shark [01:04:00] Tank or Dragons Den. It’s really that. Really.

Rhonda Eskander: Did you not die? Do Dragons [01:04:05] Den? No. Yeah. But that that when you say say that again, I mean Payman we [01:04:10] actually turned down two of dragons and he always asked me, do you wish you’d taken it? And I again it is an if moment. [01:04:15] It was an if moment the episode was out there. And do you know that it’s still our best performing ad on [01:04:20] Facebook, even four years later? And I think I would always say, if you’ve got the opportunity to do [01:04:25] Dragons Den, do it.

Julius Cowdrey: Apparently a lot of people who go on Dragons Den, even they don’t, they either raise from [01:04:30] more people because they’re on Dragons Den or they raise from people. They look, I’ve just been on Dragons Den and this is my pitch. It’s actually [01:04:35] a great way to get your business out there anyway. I’ve searched businesses. When I’ve watched that show, I’ve been like, oh, you know, where are they [01:04:40] now? Um, but but it’s not like it’s really not like that. So there are lots and lots [01:04:45] of no’s. I’m like an extreme optimist, and I really am. Like, I’ve worked so hard, hard on myself [01:04:50] to not to not go to victim mindsets. And I lean on the positive side of the coin. [01:04:55] 99% of the time. But that’s through a lot of self-work and and and discipline [01:05:00] and like trying to master my thoughts. And it’s been very useful [01:05:05] being a founder with that attitude, because through the five [01:05:10] investors that we’ve raised money from one institution, all the others are angels. We’ve [01:05:15] had 80 no’s 80 times, and one day we had three no’s from people [01:05:20] who all said they’d invest. And we’re sitting there being like, the next day we got a biggest check. [01:05:25]

Payman Langroudi: And how did you meet 80 people?

Julius Cowdrey: So we went out to San Francisco. We were having we were struggling in [01:05:30] the UK classic. So we’re so we’re in the UK and people are like, oh, valuations are a bit [01:05:35] toppy isn’t it. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Classic. Classic.

Julius Cowdrey: Yeah. [01:05:40] And you know we have to lower valuation. Give me more equity. Am I getting a you know advisor [01:05:45] equity as well. And all this and like and you know respect for you know and [01:05:50] and is a risk to to investing in Pre-seed. You’re investing the founders because it’s less than the idea. [01:05:55] Right. We just were fed up and we heard about this thing called a safe agreement. So it’s [01:06:00] all about future equity. So say I come to you and say, hey, [01:06:05] invest in my company. It’s a safe agreement means I don’t have to go to lawyers to get big things signed [01:06:10] up. You get your equity on the second event or if we sell. So [01:06:15] it means I can just give you a quick sign. You don’t. You’re not on the cap table to start but you but it actualises on a valuation [01:06:20] cap. So say if we’re valued at 30,000,000 in 3 years time and we do our next event, but it’ll [01:06:25] it’ll actualise on the 10 million cap that we set at the start. So it’s just a really good way for founders just to go boom. [01:06:30] But it’s a very big Silicon Valley thing. And it was set up by Y Combinator. So we didn’t know about this. We go out to San [01:06:35] Francisco with two meetings. One was sort of actually with our cousin, and then another one with a very warm intro, [01:06:40] and we didn’t know anyone.

Julius Cowdrey: We had three weeks in San Francisco and I’m like, okay, [01:06:45] Fabian, we’re gonna say hello to everyone and anyone. I mean, to everyone we because we have to get into this ecosystem. [01:06:50] So we stayed in a place called Marina District. We took a punt. You know, we’re spending money to go there. We’re spending money [01:06:55] on hotels. But if we get one raise, it’s fine. Then one person who puts 100 grand or 50 grand in, [01:07:00] it’s an amazing investment. That’s why we’re going back next week to raise again. And so it [01:07:05] was day one and we went to a hot yoga studio. I love hot yoga. It’s just you feel like reborn [01:07:10] after um, and I’d had my cold shower and there was this older guy there. I was like, [01:07:15] well, you know, he, you know, he do you come here a lot. I said something like, you know, I was [01:07:20] and I think he thought I was flirting with him. He quickly told me that he was going through a divorce, and I was like, cool. Uh, but [01:07:25] anyway, he ended up investing. But the cool thing about that is I didn’t go [01:07:30] in with any intention. What I’ve learned about raising is not making it about, hey, here, my pitch, here my pitch. It’s more like, [01:07:35] let me know about you and understand you and this is my story, but make it about them.

Julius Cowdrey: People want to be to speak about their things. [01:07:40] We have the guy who’s doing our tech Fabian said hello to. I [01:07:45] said, your turn, your turn, your turn to say hello in a Pete’s coffee shop. And he’s this crazy, nerdy, [01:07:50] amazing, smart people. You need smart people in the journey. It’s what we want. [01:07:55] We met him in a Pete’s coffee shop and then built a relationship with him. We ended up walking away with 30 meetings. We raised [01:08:00] half, which we’re, you know, we were happy to raise anything. Um, and that was a big risk. Big, [01:08:05] you know, time risk money, financial risk. Cause we’re going out there spending a lot of money to be in probably [01:08:10] one of the most expensive places in the world. It’s mental. Um, but yeah. So I guess my [01:08:15] advice to anyone trying to raise money is it’s overly glamorised online, [01:08:20] and it’s really, really, really hard and make it as human as you possibly can. Don’t make it about, hey, [01:08:25] here’s my business. It’s amazing because guess what? These people with money who invest, they see thousands [01:08:30] and thousands of decks every single month. So if they’re going to invest in you, they’ll invest because they [01:08:35] feel connected to you. And fortunately, through the coaching, we’re quite good at that piece [01:08:40] to connect with people. And so that’s I think been why it’s done okay.

Rhonda Eskander: I think like the other [01:08:45] thing is like loads of especially because dentists think that they because of the new boom of kind of like [01:08:50] entrepreneur dentists that want to own ten practices and have lots of products and stuff. They [01:08:55] think they can just do it. And even when we release parlour like, loads of little competitors came along and they died [01:09:00] after like three months. Because I always say it’s not good enough to just have a product. No one cares about the product. They [01:09:05] want a story. They buy people, right? So I think that’s really important. If you’ve got the opportunity. [01:09:10] Like there’s actually two dentists that recently also went on to The Apprentice and they elevated their brands through [01:09:15] that as well. So I do think if you’ve got an opportunity to go on a platform that will elevate your marketing, great. [01:09:20] But like you said, it’s about building contacts and literally asking for help. I think it’s super, super, [01:09:25] super important. People forget to ask. So when.

[TRANSITION]: You say, but.

Payman Langroudi: Also on the other [01:09:30] side of that, yeah, because we see people wearing hoodies with 60 [01:09:35] different brands on them. We think sometimes some people think it’s only [01:09:40] about marketing and not about product. And that’s a massive, huge error [01:09:45] as well.

Julius Cowdrey: It’s only about product. It’s nothing about marketing products.

[TRANSITION]: Key I always.

Julius Cowdrey: Say that, [01:09:50] come on, obviously it’s 90% product because and the reason I say that is the greatest [01:09:55] form of success in your business is organic growth. It’s people saying, wow, this really works. [01:10:00] Like if you can you can, we could, we could market to the world. We could raise 10 million and [01:10:05] mark it to the world and bring on a hell of a lot of people. If it doesn’t work and it doesn’t help people.

[TRANSITION]: You’re.

Payman Langroudi: Getting to [01:10:10] the wrong place.

[TRANSITION]: Faster.

Julius Cowdrey: Yeah. And and I don’t know what you what do you think with.

Rhonda Eskander: I think, I think [01:10:15] I disagree because you think about all of these brands that have done well that aren’t great products, but the marketing is amazing or [01:10:20] brands that just have created a story, you know, one of the typical ones, like something like la mer. [01:10:25] Do you know about la mer, the creme.

[TRANSITION]: De.

Julius Cowdrey: La mer, like Nivea?

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah, it’s like Nivea and they sell it. People [01:10:30] still buy it. And it’s literally basically the same formula as Nivea. And they sell it for like £100 [01:10:35] because of the marketing and the models that they’ve got. And this brand has been going for years. Okay. And [01:10:40] people buy into it £100 for a pot like this, okay. Because of the marketing, because [01:10:45] of the story behind. It’s not because it’s a great product. It’s not. I’ve tried.

[TRANSITION]: It.

Julius Cowdrey: You make you make a really good point. [01:10:50]

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good point. But but that was 20 years ago. The story. They were [01:10:55] way ahead. Like way ahead of what?

[TRANSITION]: Not the.

Rhonda Eskander: Product.

[TRANSITION]: Of the marketing. [01:11:00]

Payman Langroudi: Way ahead of the trend for natural products on your skin. Like they were [01:11:05] maybe the first ever skincare company that was.

[TRANSITION]: Saying the story was, but not.

Rhonda Eskander: The.

[TRANSITION]: Product. That’s exactly what.

Payman Langroudi: We’re taking.

[TRANSITION]: From [01:11:10] the story.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, they happened to be criminals, maybe.

[TRANSITION]: No, but that’s.

Rhonda Eskander: The story. The story is [01:11:15] like just as you said. And it’s the same, you know, there’s, you know, Jisoo, it’s the oil hair brand. [01:11:20] Um, she is an influencer. I can’t remember her name now. Um, but she’s based in LA, has [01:11:25] a massive following on YouTube, etc. and she brought out this oil hair [01:11:30] brand. Loads of people have really good hair oils, [01:11:35] but she had this whole story about, I think, her bee farm in Iran and like how [01:11:40] her family helped develop it.

Payman Langroudi: The thing is, the thing is in very.

[TRANSITION]: It’s.

Rhonda Eskander: A story.

[TRANSITION]: And it’s doing [01:11:45] very well.

Payman Langroudi: In very mature markets like skincare or water.

Rhonda Eskander: Hair [01:11:50] oil.

Payman Langroudi: Now water.

[TRANSITION]: Fine.

Payman Langroudi: There’s the ultimate marketing, right? If I see a bottle [01:11:55] of Evian, yeah, I’ll pay more for it than a bottle of Volvic Highland Spring. Whatever. [01:12:00] Because brand wise they’ve got me. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: And Apple.

Payman Langroudi: I get [01:12:05] it. Yeah, but the mistake people make is thinking it’s only.

Rhonda Eskander: No, I don’t [01:12:10] think so. I think.

[TRANSITION]: People know.

Payman Langroudi: People. Some people think that in our industry you can go to the Dental, the biggest show [01:12:15] in the world by product, and stick your logo on it. It’s all over. You [01:12:20] can buy product from China, Korea, you can buy you can you can get yourself a 400 [01:12:25] different SKUs of Dental products here. Whole composite ranges, stick your name on it, Rona [01:12:30] brand and do really well with it. Yeah, but at the end of the day, the product’s got [01:12:35] to work. It’s got to it’s got to.

[TRANSITION]: Do the job. It’s got to do the.

Julius Cowdrey: Job myself.

[TRANSITION]: By saying.

Julius Cowdrey: By saying look [01:12:40] at Uber and Bolt.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Julius Cowdrey: Right there that neither company were actually better at the start. [01:12:45] I think bolt actually came out before Uber. Well, sorry, it might be completely wrong, but I think I don’t think Uber were the first. [01:12:50] But actually Uber interestingly started as a black limousine company from San Francisco. That’s right. It’s like [01:12:55] it was a pretty it wasn’t a product that was going to scale. Um, it’s Airbnb was we have we’re [01:13:00] going to put mattresses on our floor. Air mattresses. Airbnb For conference weekends and will [01:13:05] close down the website when it’s not like it’s like there’s a big saying that I’m learning from people [01:13:10] out in San Francisco is like, you will hate your MP, MVP. It’s okay to hate your MVP, [01:13:15] but the way Uber won was through marketing, not product. I think, but they [01:13:20] still had to have a product that worked. So I think it’s a really it’s a really good it’s a really good debate. We’re [01:13:25] trying to create an amazing product and get to market quick, but scale a little slower so that we [01:13:30] can learn from users. And I think it’s a bit more, um, we have to be a bit more careful with [01:13:35] because it’s people’s mental health and it’s human rather than.

[TRANSITION]: If it was.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not like there’s [01:13:40] 300 companies like that and you have to differentiate on brand.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Rhonda Eskander: But [01:13:45] say for example, you’re right. I have a therapist friend that was telling me about [01:13:50] better health, better health, better health. Yeah. And actually it’s really controversial. Therapists don’t like it because [01:13:55] what’s happened is, is that they feel so you know the premise, right?

[TRANSITION]: You go, I.

Payman Langroudi: Would do that and I wouldn’t. [01:14:00]

[TRANSITION]: With a.

Julius Cowdrey: Therapist.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Rhonda Eskander: But wait for it. So as a therapist, she was telling me that lots of therapists [01:14:05] have been protesting and saying it’s not good enough. First of all, they’re offering people treatments [01:14:10] or whatever sessions for like £30, £20, etc. but actually the premise of the [01:14:15] company I might be wrong is that they are collecting as much data as possible to, in the end, create an AI [01:14:20] product where basically they’re going to phase out therapists.

[TRANSITION]: Chatgpt is my best friend, I’m not gonna lie. [01:14:25] What’s wrong with their advice?

Rhonda Eskander: Sometimes, okay. I really do.

[TRANSITION]: Okay, but what’s wrong with that?

Rhonda Eskander: Because in the therapist world, [01:14:30] there’s this whole kind of ethical debate about all of that. Because it’s mental health, right? So listen, I’m [01:14:35] just I’m not I’m saying it’s my opinion, but this is what she was expressing to me. So I do think that Julius is [01:14:40] right. Like you have to also make sure because maybe BetterHelp started out for the [01:14:45] wrong, the right reasons. But then when you start thinking about scaling and numbers and so forth and AI. It [01:14:50] does become a little bit blurred. And I think when it involves healthcare, mental health, etc., we do have to be [01:14:55] careful.

[TRANSITION]: Um, be careful with that.

Payman Langroudi: There’s no reason why there. Listen, man, this pod will not [01:15:00] exist in ten years time. Some I will be acting as me well, some I will be.

[TRANSITION]: I actually [01:15:05] disagree.

Payman Langroudi: He’ll post his eye in and.

[TRANSITION]: I will talk.

Julius Cowdrey: I highly disagree, I actually think, um, there’s going [01:15:10] to be, you know, the world sways like this, doesn’t it? It’s like, you know, even like.

[TRANSITION]: The woke.

Julius Cowdrey: Movement. [01:15:15] We don’t we’re not going to go there. But like, you know, it went so far that way. And now the world in America is going, [01:15:20] you know, I want it to go the other way. Let’s let’s get it back to normality. Whatever. Whatever people [01:15:25] think is normality. I think it’s the same with AI. Ai is going pretty crazy, and I think there’s a place [01:15:30] and it’s going to really rock it, and it’s going to be amazing for so many reasons.

[TRANSITION]: To have this.

Rhonda Eskander: Conversation, the metaverse, I’m telling you. [01:15:35]

Julius Cowdrey: But but I genuinely.

[TRANSITION]: But I think.

Julius Cowdrey: More than ever, and we speak to a lot of investors [01:15:40] about AI because they go, what? What are you going to do with AI and how are you going to do it? And we try and pre-empt it by saying, look, we’ll use AI as [01:15:45] possible as to to speed things up. We might some of the coaches could have, you know, AI agents [01:15:50] that could learn about them to then, you know, have so that their users could have 24/7 support. And [01:15:55] by their coach, you know, Tony Robbins has his own AI. Now Matthew Hussey who’s a relationship coach, has his own eye. Um, [01:16:00] but in essence, we say [01:16:05] with the rise of AI, people will need joiner more than ever. In fact, people [01:16:10] will be searching for connection even more because they’ll be so pulled away. I mean, look at social media. It’s actually people are [01:16:15] feeling less connected, more lonely. There’s more isolated people globally than ever. If [01:16:20] we talk about, you know, you said the highest rate of, of any industry is suicide, is, you [01:16:25] know, suicide went up in women 150% in the UK last year. It’s absolutely [01:16:30] mind boggling. So people are lonely and isolated, and we’ve seen firsthand what what happens [01:16:35] when people are talking about their stuff and open and in a group and feel supported at all times [01:16:40] that it changes. Um, it changes your mind. It’s unbelievable the impact. [01:16:45] So I think I will do some awesome things and yeah, it might faze some therapists out, but [01:16:50] I personally, if I want to work with a therapist, I’ll talk to a real person who actually has real thoughts.

Rhonda Eskander: But [01:16:55] but you know what the thing is, is like, I think I think also that you’re underestimating, like, trends change all the time. [01:17:00] Like, for example, like you even think about like, and I think one of the most important things as a business owner and entrepreneur, [01:17:05] which you would agree with and you would agree with, you have to pivot and you have to be willing to [01:17:10] pivot. Um, you know, with.

[TRANSITION]: No, I was.

Julius Cowdrey: Thinking of friends when you went pivot.

Rhonda Eskander: There [01:17:15] we go. So but you know, it is I think it’s like people forget to do that because with [01:17:20] parlour for example, the for like what was at the, at the full [01:17:25] mind, what was at the forefront of my co-founders minds and asked at the time, [01:17:30] sustainability. It was all about sustainability. There was no sustainable toothpaste. It was all about the sustainability [01:17:35] piece. And actually today we had a meeting and we were like, cool, this is actually the direction that we’re going [01:17:40] to pivot in now because a lot of people are doing sustainability. So whilst that was one of our USPS and we [01:17:45] have to still align with that, markets change. People want different things. And it’s the same with like [01:17:50] the beauty industry. Like a few years ago, everyone wanted that Kim Kardashian look, you [01:17:55] know, and now people are like, God. I did this post on TikTok about the girl from White Lotus and [01:18:00] how she had these, like, very prominent teeth and she looks amazing. It was so refreshing to see someone [01:18:05] not have their teeth done. And I was like, okay, this is interesting. Like people want to see more of that. So I think things [01:18:10] change all the time. So he’s right with the eye stuff. Sure, there’s going to be a big surge and then people [01:18:15] are going to come back around again and value more authentic connections. You know, I go on detox [01:18:20] retreats in Costa Rica and basically live with a cult for a week because I want to get away from social media [01:18:25] and that life, you know. So I think I think you’re right.

Julius Cowdrey: Back to, um, with Parler, [01:18:30] I, I think for us going forward with our business, it’s it’s focussed on the problem, [01:18:35] not the business. So like, the money will come based on the impact that we create, but the problems might always [01:18:40] change. So we’re like, okay, this is what’s working now. But like you said, it might not work down the line. So I think, um, [01:18:45] it’s really back to the, you know, advice for any founder like, and I’m pretty early [01:18:50] in my journey, but from the experience it’s just, It’s like, uh, [01:18:55] you know, when you, uh, you know, when you’re waterskiing. Sorry. Not waterskiing. When you’re when you’re like, on a you see [01:19:00] those people on a board just behind a boat and they’re like, you know. Right. But at the start, they’re holding something and then they let go. And then [01:19:05] that’s how it feels. You have to really guide the wave. It’s always ever changing. The world is ever changing. I [01:19:10] will be I want to lean into how amazing I will be and how much it’s been [01:19:15] amazing so far. I mean, how the hell I would have done all the things to get to here in such [01:19:20] speed because, I.

[TRANSITION]: Mean.

Payman Langroudi: Where are you at? I mean, do you have employees? Customers?

Julius Cowdrey: We [01:19:25] have. It’s me and my brother, and then we have someone in South Africa helping us with the nitty gritty things. [01:19:30] And then we have a tech lead in the US who’s got equity. And apart from that, it’s just. Yeah, [01:19:35] it’s mainly us just fighting at the, the big fight. Um, but then we, [01:19:40] we, we raised to then employ. So, so it’s all a part of that. It’s. Yeah, it’s [01:19:45] actually just really fun. I think as long as you’re the mission is really, really obvious here. And the mission comes from [01:19:50] trying to solve the problem and the problem that we felt firsthand. And I think that’s what gets you. Through the [01:19:55] 18 O’s or the or the days when you’re just like, oh my God, I haven’t had a salary from this for a year and a half. [01:20:00] And like, I’m having to do all these other things to make me money. Um, because and and that’s why I think [01:20:05] that’s why it adds to the pressure. Because you’re just like, I really just want to provide for myself as well. Like, it’s [01:20:10] it’s really testing, but, um, it’s it’s the most exhilarating.

Rhonda Eskander: Sabotaging your own ability [01:20:15] to get into a relationship. So whilst you’re justifying that, you’re saying, like, you know, there’s [01:20:20] like these women that are not particularly kind of emotionally available or whatever, but do you think [01:20:25] in some way maybe you’re not emotionally available because you don’t feel like you can provide for [01:20:30] a family or whatever?

Julius Cowdrey: Oh, I think I think you’re going somewhere else. Interestingly, I, um, [01:20:35] have definitely not been emotionally available because I want [01:20:40] to get this baby off the ground, and and I work and I [01:20:45] and I just don’t know if it’s I can give the time that is required to [01:20:50] to someone who deserves a lot, right? So I want to if I’m [01:20:55] going to, if I’m going to be all in and actually receptive and open to spending time with someone, I don’t particularly [01:21:00] want to drink much because it slows me down and I. I don’t like feeling anxious the next [01:21:05] day. I don’t particularly want to have late nights. I like fasting, so I usually stop around 6 or [01:21:10] 7, so to go out for dinners. But that’s fine. I can do that. And then and then I’m texting during the day [01:21:15] and I think it’s gonna, it’s gonna take for a very unique person [01:21:20] multitask.

[TRANSITION]: Right. I really we.

Julius Cowdrey: Really can’t multitask. Um, but on [01:21:25] to that point. I was I was very avoidant for quite a while and, and actually feel more receptive [01:21:30] and open forever. But the interesting thing is, because I’m not I’m going to the US, I’m just like, I can’t date anyone because I’m. [01:21:35] Yeah, I’m 25 year old. I was speaking to actually someone [01:21:40] about this last night. 25 year old Julius would have just dated and just [01:21:45] had fun and not cared about the outcome. I’ll just date, date, date fun, fun fun And then it doesn’t. [01:21:50] Fine. It’ll be fine. It’ll be fine and probably hurt them. Right? But I’ve got to a point where when I was in an avoidant [01:21:55] place and I started dating someone and they wanted more and I didn’t, couldn’t give it to them, slash it was too [01:22:00] much. Right? So because I was in that space where I wasn’t ready to open up my heart, and now [01:22:05] I’m ready to open that up.

[TRANSITION]: But are you?

Julius Cowdrey: Well, I guess [01:22:10] I’d like to think I am. I feel really receptive and open and willing. But then exactly [01:22:15] time. I’m like, oh, I mean, I just, I basically need, I need [01:22:20] I would like someone who’s also grinding really hard and working on their stuff and like, and I’d love [01:22:25] to go out with another founder, I think, who’s just like, who’s who’s fighting that fight and gets it. [01:22:30] Um, because it’s a.

Payman Langroudi: It might work or it might not, isn’t it?

[TRANSITION]: But because he always.

Rhonda Eskander: Said [01:22:35] this.

[TRANSITION]: Because.

Rhonda Eskander: I was obsessed with trying to meet someone that was on that kind of like, [01:22:40] he knows this. Like I was like, oh, I want someone basically that’s like the male version of me. And he was like, [01:22:45] you are not going to find anyone that’s male version of you, because it will be a nightmare. You can’t have two of [01:22:50] you. Do you know what I mean? Like you used to say that to me all the time, and I was like, okay. And I suppose, like, [01:22:55] maybe there is a sort of like truth in that. Um, because maybe you do need like [01:23:00] a balance of energies and so forth. I hear you, but what I think you’re talking more about is values.

[TRANSITION]: Do you [01:23:05] think, do you.

Payman Langroudi: Think you’ve given like, a name to your pain and somehow, like, I don’t know, like, [01:23:10] like just from a totally different idea? Like, if I drop $100 million into [01:23:15] your account, your back would still hurt as much as it hurt to 10s before [01:23:20] I put 100. I know you’re back, but you know what I mean. Whatever thing is pissing you off would [01:23:25] still be pissing you off as long as that thing wasn’t fixable with money, which most of the things aren’t, you [01:23:30] know, you would still be you with 100 million. So. So now now the the comparison. [01:23:35] You know that. Oh, let’s say Miss Perfect came along, you know, there [01:23:40] would be this rush at the beginning. But then when all of the pieces [01:23:45] settled, still be you, you know, and you wouldn’t necessarily [01:23:50] be a different person even though there was this Miss Perfect.

Julius Cowdrey: Money. Money solves [01:23:55] money problems.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Julius Cowdrey: Navel speaks about this incredibly. Money solves money problems. Um. [01:24:00] And and. Yeah, I want to be able to provide. So. [01:24:05] Yeah. Then then money problem. Right. I want to be able to give my wife, my kids a life that [01:24:10] that they, they, they are proud to be and live and but the thing is, I think we, we, we [01:24:15] put so much expectation having to, to make so much and do so much [01:24:20] like.

[TRANSITION]: So when.

Rhonda Eskander: Does it end? That’s what I’m trying.

[TRANSITION]: To say.

Julius Cowdrey: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Entrepreneurship is so fraught with failure anyway [01:24:25] that if you fail, you mustn’t feel like you failed in your relationship.

Julius Cowdrey: I just don’t [01:24:30] think there’s anything. I actually think there’s no such thing as failure.

[TRANSITION]: And the reason.

Julius Cowdrey: Why I think.

[TRANSITION]: There’s financial.

Payman Langroudi: Failure, let’s say the [01:24:35] company goes bust and it doesn’t work.

[TRANSITION]: Out.

Payman Langroudi: Lesson that.

Julius Cowdrey: Lesson, that.

[TRANSITION]: Lesson that.

Payman Langroudi: Wasn’t.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Julius Cowdrey: I don’t [01:24:40] think there’s anything any such thing as failure. I think failure is the greatest thing actually, if you want to say it [01:24:45] is. I think it is that and it’s a very this is a very obvious thing to say because you hear it a lot. But I genuinely, [01:24:50] truly believe it, that failure is every time a lesson, every time, every time [01:24:55] I, I went back to that girl I shouldn’t have done or I got, you know, I went, I was in a relationship, I was cheated on or, you [01:25:00] know, whatever I made those errors of, I fell down and fell down and fell down. And, and I had to critique [01:25:05] myself and give myself a hard time and work. I’ve learned so much to the place where I’m just so much more evolved [01:25:10] as a result of it. I’ve. I’ve seen them all like as an absolute win every single [01:25:15] time.

Rhonda Eskander: But it’s like what you said even about like, the burning house analogy. And we once had a great friend of mine, [01:25:20] Louis, who’s brilliant. And do you remember this? I’ll never forget this quote. Louis said, um, he’s [01:25:25] like the vegan poster boy. I don’t know if you know Louis Blake, but anyway, he once said he goes, A sick [01:25:30] part of me wants things to go wrong, because I want to see how far [01:25:35] I can push myself and my limits.

[TRANSITION]: To get.

Rhonda Eskander: To get out of that, you know? And [01:25:40] I was like, you know what? Like, sometimes I feel that as well because like you said, sometimes like you’d [01:25:45] never you on paper you’re not like, oh, I wish I was like in an abusive relationship or I lost anything, [01:25:50] but that’s what pushes you to get out, you know, like at the other you. [01:25:55] The only way out is through. Do you know what I mean? So, like, that’s sometimes how I see failure. [01:26:00] Sometimes I’m like, bloody hell, I really hope it’s not going to be all cushty all the time, you know? But the only thing is, like my [01:26:05] clinic, I’m like, that’s mine forever.

[TRANSITION]: Would you.

Julius Cowdrey: Like it? Would you like it if you, uh. If [01:26:10] they could go into your brain and they could, uh, basically [01:26:15] spear in on your dopamine and you’re happy the whole time?

[TRANSITION]: No.

Julius Cowdrey: Like they [01:26:20] did, they did the test with monkeys, and so they did the test with monkeys, and I actually, [01:26:25] I don’t actually know the outcome of what happened to the monkeys, but I guess the question is if they could go [01:26:30] into, um, into your joy receptor and make you feel joyful the whole time, would you want that? And you’d be like, probably [01:26:35] like probably no, I and people say no, right, based on this test. And then they go, okay, well, if they could tap into [01:26:40] your purpose the whole time and you’re always into your purpose, purpose? Purpose. Now, the truth is that [01:26:45] and the test. Test basically results in the fact that we need the waves to be able to [01:26:50] to appreciate the that life is is we need unpredictability. I think even [01:26:55] though we’re searching for comfortability, there is something so exciting [01:27:00] about living in this, ah, what’s happening next? Walking through the mist. What’s going to happen?

Rhonda Eskander: But [01:27:05] you know what? Unfortunately, I do think what takes us out of that and what dehumanises us in a way, is social [01:27:10] media, because also the personas that you are projecting on social media or what you’re seeing and internalise [01:27:15] as what you think would give you the ultimate happiness isn’t reality, you know? And I [01:27:20] really see that, like, my parents are so in love. They’ve been together for 35 years. They grew up without [01:27:25] social media. I really do feel like social media creates like pulls [01:27:30] us in to like my life could be better like this person. My life could be like this. I [01:27:35] could be, you know, as I told you, even my comparison to, like, the reality TV stars, I’m like, oh, if I went on the show, would [01:27:40] I have been happier? Do you see what I mean? That kind of thing. And no matter how much work you do on yourself, I don’t [01:27:45] think you can become immune to that technology, especially when you start getting into the vortex of this echo [01:27:50] chamber, because all the content is geared into kind of like this sort of confirmation bias. So you’re like, [01:27:55] yeah, yeah, I would have been happy. I would have been happier because that’s what they are geared to do. Have either one of you watched, [01:28:00] um, the Dark Side of Kid Fluency? I watched it last night.

[TRANSITION]: No. [01:28:05]

Rhonda Eskander: It’s fascinating. So just quickly on this point because I think it is important. So the documentary [01:28:10] is about the rise of kid Fluencers. So these kids that want to become YouTube stars. I mean, I [01:28:15] had no idea. It was like a whole world, to be honest with you. And one girl, her mother was extremely opportunistic, [01:28:20] Britney Spears style and wanted her daughter to become very famous, put her in pageants [01:28:25] from a very young age, then got her onto YouTube. She gained millions of followers pretty [01:28:30] much overnight and brought in all these other like child YouTubers, and [01:28:35] the parents were kind of involved but created this like squad. But her daughter was the main focus. [01:28:40] And then obviously things turned really dark because unfortunately they started feeding the beast [01:28:45] because to continue with the likes and the engagement and the [01:28:50] money, you need to keep doing something more and more outrageous every day. [01:28:55] And when there’s kids involved, it’s just crazy. And it’s like, where does it stop? And [01:29:00] you can see these kids that kind of some of them like left talk about how affected they [01:29:05] are and they’re only children, you know. And I think it’s like a really dangerous space, [01:29:10] to be honest with you. And that’s what I’m saying. We’ve not really lived through the full effects of social media for [01:29:15] us or our children, and that’s why I think that can strip us, strip us of our real, like happiness [01:29:20] and humanity. That’s my truth.

Julius Cowdrey: Massively, massively. I speak to clients about your pillars [01:29:25] of peace or mitigating anxiety. I know exactly [01:29:30] how to. And I’ve got to a place where, again, I’ve worked on myself to understand this is like I can live an anxious free [01:29:35] day. I can live a day where I have a calm inner critic. Wasn’t always nice, was? Yes, exactly. [01:29:40] Again, back to Navarre, he says happiness is when you don’t want anything to be changed. It’s like a simple [01:29:45] way of defining happiness. And I think happiness is such a spectrum. But if if [01:29:50] we put crap food into your body simply, you will feel crap. [01:29:55] I feel anxious if I eat really, really shit food. If I did for the whole week and I had just burgers, chips, [01:30:00] crisps, whatever it is for the whole entire week, I’m gonna feel really dodgy. I feel awful, actually. In fact, probably not very good [01:30:05] in my mind. Now, if I spend time with five pessimistic people who just drain you, then [01:30:10] you’re going to feel in the exact same way you’ll probably feel anxious. You’ll probably be doing the same thing moaning about [01:30:15] life being a victim.

Julius Cowdrey: The exact same thing is with social media, and I don’t think it’s spoken about enough that it is [01:30:20] a diet in itself. Everything you consume that goes through your eyes and produces [01:30:25] the picture and then goes into your mind and then sits there in your subconscious, is ultimately going to affect the way you think about your life, [01:30:30] the way you think about yourself. And we are we are creatures of comparison. So if we know that we are [01:30:35] and we’re still following the the sexy model because, you know, because she looks great [01:30:40] or or the or the the person who puts up that really unhealthy content, um, or [01:30:45] or political news the whole time, which is so damaging and just therefore, again, clickbait and [01:30:50] to make, make us sort of distracted from what actually life’s about and take us out of our present, then [01:30:55] ultimately I think it’s going to affect us, and I think we need to see it as a diet, just like the food, [01:31:00] just like the people around us.

[TRANSITION]: I love that. Yeah, but.

Payman Langroudi: But, but, but but, you know, society [01:31:05] changed for your parents dramatically. Dramatically. So media changed [01:31:10] dramatically. There was someone saying, oh, there was no radio [01:31:15] before radio. There was, uh, people going out and playing in the forest. [01:31:20] Then TV, then TV came along, and then then the internet [01:31:25] got damn internet and social media. Now we’ve got, you know what I mean? Like the the [01:31:30] media landscape will change. There will be positives and negatives in it. Uh, [01:31:35] if I could push a button and switch off media, yeah, would I? Certainly [01:31:40] not.

[TRANSITION]: Oh my God.

Rhonda Eskander: You need to go to Costa Rica. Brave earth. You’ll change your mind.

[TRANSITION]: Guys, I did I.

Julius Cowdrey: Did a 24 [01:31:45] hour over over the weekend. Just 24 hours.

Rhonda Eskander: I’ve done it. I’ve done it for, like a [01:31:50] week, two weeks.

Julius Cowdrey: And you’re my hero because of it. But I did a 20. I’d be [01:31:55] happy for me.

[TRANSITION]: Okay, 24.

Rhonda Eskander: Hours.

[TRANSITION]: Go.

Julius Cowdrey: I did 24 hour detox. Not as easy as it sounds. [01:32:00]

[TRANSITION]: No.

Julius Cowdrey: It’s hard. And I did. No phone. Phone actually went into the car. Locked. Hide my key, please. That’s how much [01:32:05] I didn’t want to be tempted by this thing that I’m addicted by. And I felt amazing. [01:32:10] I felt calm, but at the start I kept on going to my pocket looking for [01:32:15] for no reason.

Rhonda Eskander: I do that to.

Julius Cowdrey: Mental and, um. It was an [01:32:20] amazing experience. And in fact, I wanted to do it more. I had the same experience with fasting. I’ve [01:32:25] been doing some of these long fasts. So 24 hours, 36 hours.

[TRANSITION]: Ten days. Sorry, I’m not.

Rhonda Eskander: Trying to trump [01:32:30] you with everything. Okay? Hey.

Julius Cowdrey: Sorry again. My hero. Oh, [01:32:35] God. I mean, I just I want to be here. Um, but I did this, this 24 hour [01:32:40] fast, which is a long time for me. I like food, and I like the way it makes me feel. Whatever. And for the first six hours, [01:32:45] just like the first six hours of my phone, I’m like, my body’s gasping for food, like. Like I’m going to die [01:32:50] of starvation. And just like my phone. And I want to see this thing because of the dopamine it’s going to give me. But [01:32:55] after those six hours or whatever, it was calm, calm, calm [01:33:00] and focus from not eating. Same thing with the phone. My mind was thinking of these amazing ways. [01:33:05] I thought to myself, this is amazing. Thomas Edison used to sit in a box room and just let his thoughts solve [01:33:10] the problem. Steve Jobs used to do to do meditation and go up and be on his own so that [01:33:15] he could solve the problem. Because your mind is incredible, but we access so little of it. You must you must [01:33:20] have found that with with doing your ten day fast.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhonda Eskander: No, I mean, look, I love doing all this, like, woo [01:33:25] woo stuff, like, you know, Payman knows all about that. Um, I want to ask you a final question. [01:33:30] Um, Julius? Well, first of all, where can people find your platform, um, if they want to go [01:33:35] on and find it? And also, where can people find you on social media?

Julius Cowdrey: Okay. [01:33:40] Um, I’ll start with me. So my if there are not many julius’s around, but, uh, Julius Cowdrey [01:33:45] JL Cowdrey c o w DIY is my social. If you want to look at the [01:33:50] questions on the mic, if you want to, if you want to come on the mic, just send me a message. I ask everyone, anyone a question. So [01:33:55] um, get in touch. Um, and when it comes to Joyner. Joyner community, [01:34:00] Joyner Dot community, um, it’s in the works. Um, the website’s bought. It’s all there, [01:34:05] but it’s not launched yet. We’ve, um. So stay tuned for that. But I’d love you to follow the follow the journey. [01:34:10]

Rhonda Eskander: Okay. Amazing. And then the last question is, I know we’ve touched on this. What would [01:34:15] make you happy? Right now. [01:34:20]

Julius Cowdrey: Right now in this.

Rhonda Eskander: In this.

[TRANSITION]: Year, in.

Julius Cowdrey: This.

Rhonda Eskander: Year, in this year, in this.

[TRANSITION]: Year. [01:34:25]

Julius Cowdrey: Uh, my we’re coming to the end, so I don’t want to. We can. [01:34:30] We could easily open a can of worms. My biggest blocker at the moment. I’m surprised I didn’t ask it when you said, [01:34:35] what are you struggling with? Because I just went to business. And because I think maybe that’s the easier path than the. The truth is [01:34:40] that I have been closed off and for me it’s about opening up my heart. So [01:34:45] I’ve been doing quite a lot of breathwork, talking about being woo woo recently, and it’s all about being receptive and open to [01:34:50] love. Mhm. Um, because I know I’ve been closed off to protect myself. Um, [01:34:55] and I think a lot of people are and the first step is just knowing that you are [01:35:00] and just being willing to, to sit in the new [01:35:05] narrative. I am ready. And so when you ask me, are you sure you’re ready? I’m like, I’m ready. And even if I deep [01:35:10] down I believe I’m going to keep saying I am because I want to attract healthy love.

[TRANSITION]: I love.

Rhonda Eskander: That. Thank you so much [01:35:15] and thank you for joining us today. It’s been absolutely amazing. And for those watching, don’t forget to follow and [01:35:20] subscribe to Make Payments podcast. Finally, the number one Dental podcast. Thank you so much. [01:35:25]

[TRANSITION]: Thank you.