Month: June 2025

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] Enlightened Online Training.com to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time whitening Underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you [00:00:30] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:40] Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Doctor [00:00:45] Saul, Sam Sammy onto the podcast otherwise known as Doctor Saul, Doctor Saul Sam [00:00:50] on Instagram. Um, where do we meet? First time mini [00:00:55] smile makeover. Mini smile makeover.

[VOICE]: Payman.

[BOTH]: Thank you for having me. [00:01:00]

Payman Langroudi: Good to have you. Souls is a aesthetic dentist [00:01:05] and facial aesthetics expert who works across several practices. Kind of [00:01:10] a turbulent journey getting to dentistry in the first place. Yeah, but someone who [00:01:15] has a very powerful YouTube presence, um, with a [00:01:20] YouTube channel with thousands of subscribers, big social media presence that [00:01:25] I’ve seen, but also one of the dentists I’ve come across who just says it as it is, [00:01:30] which is really refreshing. Well done for coming.

Solmaz Samae: Thank you very much for having me. I’m [00:01:35] honoured to be here.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me, where are you right [00:01:40] now.

Solmaz Samae: In life with God?

Payman Langroudi: What are you struggling with? What are you struggling with in life? [00:01:45]

Solmaz Samae: My dating life. Really?

Payman Langroudi: Who’s looking at you? Looking at your social media? I was looking at all your social [00:01:50] media. Everything looks so perfect. But we all know that’s just the, like, a, you know, highlight [00:01:55] reel.

Solmaz Samae: That is the problem with Instagram? Isn’t it all on a filter? Um, it’s [00:02:00] not perfect, but it is.

Payman Langroudi: What are you struggling with?

Solmaz Samae: I’m not struggling with anything. [00:02:05] I am the happiest I’ve been in a very, very [00:02:10] long while. I am. I love my job. I’m [00:02:15] healthy. I love my life. I’m doing [00:02:20] all the things I love. Um. I get to spend a lot of time with my family. I have amazing [00:02:25] hobbies. I go riding, boxing. I spend a lot of time at the gym, a [00:02:30] lot of time at the gym. I have a six pack.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve seen.

[BOTH]: That. I know, [00:02:35] I’ve seen that. On your stories.

Solmaz Samae: To myself for my 40th birthday. Honestly. [00:02:40] So for my 40th birthday, I decided that I want to give myself a six [00:02:45] pack. So I had a little chat with my nurse and she burst out laughing [00:02:50] to the point that she gave herself a stitch. And it’s because I eat so [00:02:55] much. So I put in the time and it’s here. So. [00:03:00] But no, I’m very happy.

[BOTH]: How often.

Payman Langroudi: Are you in.

[BOTH]: The gym?

Solmaz Samae: Uh, 5 to 6 [00:03:05] times a week.

[BOTH]: Wow.

Solmaz Samae: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Consistently.

Solmaz Samae: Consistently. [00:03:10]

Payman Langroudi: So, what time do you go? Early morning.

Solmaz Samae: Uh, if I’m going out in the evenings, I’ll go [00:03:15] out. I’ll go to the gym early morning.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Solmaz Samae: If I have no evening plans, [00:03:20] I will go in the evenings after I finish work.

Payman Langroudi: How long have you been [00:03:25] doing that?

Solmaz Samae: For about three years now.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so before that you weren’t a big gym person at all?

Solmaz Samae: Not so much. [00:03:30] I’ll go, but I wouldn’t really know what I was doing, you know.

[BOTH]: So did you get a I [00:03:35] got a personal trainer. Yeah, I.

Solmaz Samae: Got I don’t have a personal trainer. Now. I I’ll [00:03:40] have a session every so often just to ensure that my postures [00:03:45] are still correct, that I’m doing everything okay, but I don’t have a personal trainer now. No, I’m [00:03:50] okay now. And I have my routine, and it’s so good for my mental health. No [00:03:55] it’s not. I work out for about 90 minutes, and it’s 90 [00:04:00] minutes of open eye meditation, and I end it with about half an hour in the spa [00:04:05] where I meditate. Closed eyes.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s two hours a day?

Solmaz Samae: Two [00:04:10] hours a day?

[BOTH]: What?

Payman Langroudi: Between what? Six and eight or something.

Solmaz Samae: So between six [00:04:15] 6:45. So by the time I get there, it’s about 6:45 [00:04:20] to nine. And I’ll invest in pretty gym gear because I’m staring [00:04:25] at myself. I do because I’m staring at myself for two hours. I want to look, you know, [00:04:30] be happy.

[BOTH]: Make a lot of.

Payman Langroudi: Content in the gym.

[BOTH]: Right?

Solmaz Samae: I do. I like to motivate people. So [00:04:35] if I can do it, you can do it. And I’m well, 42 now. So. [00:04:40] And at a certain age we feel like we’ve almost [00:04:45] expired or that it’s too late and it’s not too late. [00:04:50] It’s never too late. I work out with women in their 70s and [00:04:55] it’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: So was that a bit? So what time do you wake up? Six.

Solmaz Samae: I [00:05:00] wake up at six.

Payman Langroudi: So what time do you go to bed?

Solmaz Samae: 12.

Payman Langroudi: Six hours.

Solmaz Samae: Six hours? [00:05:05] I don’t sleep a lot, which is not great. But when I hit [00:05:10] the pillow, I’m gone.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, so then you do your big workout. You do your chill [00:05:15] in the spa every day. I’m jealous of anyone who does that every day. Well done, [00:05:20] well done. And then what? You’re off to work.

Solmaz Samae: And then. So if I do that in the mornings [00:05:25] and then I go straight to work, if I do it in the evening, I’ll go home, eat [00:05:30] and chill for a couple of hours and then sleep.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re working in three different places. [00:05:35]

Solmaz Samae: I work in three different places. So I work with two [00:05:40] wonderful boys in Winchmore Hill and it’s called Broadway Dental [00:05:45] some.

Payman Langroudi: Good friends of mine.

Solmaz Samae: They’re lovely. Actually, it was Payman and George. That [00:05:50] got me the job.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Solmaz Samae: You did? I had my interview [00:05:55] whilst I was in Lesvos doing some charity work and. Oh, really? Yeah. So [00:06:00] we had a phone interview and the boys are lovely. Amazing moral compass, [00:06:05] like, beautifully aligned. And it’s more than just dentistry with [00:06:10] them. It’s very holistic. They look after everything. You know, [00:06:15] they’re. They have sessions with you just to ensure that you’re okay in your personal [00:06:20] life. They’re just wonderful human beings.

Payman Langroudi: They are. They are. You know, with with with [00:06:25] customers. You sometimes you just bond with one type of person [00:06:30] and they end up. I was thinking about Sutton and Hardy. We end up, like, [00:06:35] going. Every time we’re at a show, we invite them for dinner. Yeah. Yeah, because [00:06:40] we have so much fun with them. They’re just such great people.

Solmaz Samae: I’m going bowling with them tonight.

Payman Langroudi: Is that right?

Solmaz Samae: Yeah. [00:06:45] Is that right, boys?

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Really? So what kind of practice is that? Is that private?

Solmaz Samae: It’s [00:06:50] private. No. It’s mixed. Mixed? It’s mixed. Nhs and private. [00:06:55] It’s mixed. And I also work at Perfect Smile in Muswell [00:07:00] Hill. And I love my team there. It was the first time I started working [00:07:05] with Iranians.

Payman Langroudi: So are they Iranians?

Solmaz Samae: The girls that work with me are Iranians. [00:07:10] And we go in, I go in in the morning. And before we’ve even said hello, I put [00:07:15] music on before I put my bag down and we start dancing. So [00:07:20] we’ll do one little dance and then we’ll kiss hello [00:07:25] and we’ll greet us, you know? It’s beautiful working with them. They’re very supportive. [00:07:30] The patients in Muswell Hill are lovely. I really like the patients.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s [00:07:35] when you say the girls. You mean the receptionists? The nurses?

Solmaz Samae: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The Iranians.

Solmaz Samae: They’re the Iranians. [00:07:40] I’ve got two Iranian nurses, Marjan and Shantia. And they’re beautiful. [00:07:45] They’re their friends.

Payman Langroudi: And and I mean perfect smile. I’ve got quite a lot of experience with with them. [00:07:50] Um, if you want to make a change or whatever, who do you go to? [00:07:55] The practice manager. The area manager.

Solmaz Samae: The area manager. Rosa. [00:08:00] Amazing lady. Really nice. Listens well and they take it on board. [00:08:05] Jackie, who is their main manager. She’s very good. Like [00:08:10] she. My experience. Like she’ll listen to the dentist. She’ll take it on board. So [00:08:15] I’ve had very good experience with them. Touchwood.

Payman Langroudi: Because they know I mean, they are a corporate [00:08:20] now, you know, you’ve got this sort of mini corporate situation, but they are a corporate. How many practices [00:08:25] is it?

Solmaz Samae: I have no idea.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a good 30. A good 30. Um, [00:08:30] your, your your reflections on working for a corporate [00:08:35] over working for an independent.

Solmaz Samae: I’ve previously worked [00:08:40] for Bupa, which is a corporate and Fortunately, when it [00:08:45] hits the fan, they’re very. You’re very much on your own. [00:08:50]

Payman Langroudi: Was that your experience?

Solmaz Samae: What was that experience with Bupa? It was two years ago.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:08:55]

Solmaz Samae: That was my.

Payman Langroudi: That was a very difficult period when they bought the all those practices. [00:09:00]

Solmaz Samae: That’s it. It was when they were selling their practice.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Really. Was it that one?

Solmaz Samae: It [00:09:05] was. Yeah. So it was not a great experience unfortunately [00:09:10] with Bupa but with perfect smile. I don’t have that. It’s almost [00:09:15] like corporate meets independent. It’s kind of a nice balance [00:09:20] in the middle. I like it.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the I’ve had [00:09:25] several of their people here and they’re trying so hard to, to, to get away from what [00:09:30] happened in that period. Yeah. Because I remember Bupa had a wonderful 15 [00:09:35] practices and that was all it was. And then they suddenly switched it up [00:09:40] to 400 Overnight, and that’s not an easy thing to pull off. Man, it is not [00:09:45] an easy thing to pull off at all. And my wife works at Bupa now.

Solmaz Samae: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And she’s happy. She’s [00:09:50] happy. And it’s interesting because.

Solmaz Samae: She’s happy for well, I was there for three [00:09:55] years, so I was happy to be there for three years. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Was that [00:10:00] all private?

Solmaz Samae: No, it was mixed. It was mixed. And I had a downstairs [00:10:05] surgery, meaning that I saw adult special care. Some elderly [00:10:10] patients. And I love the patients. I absolutely [00:10:15] I do dentistry because I love the patients. Like I.

Payman Langroudi: Can imagine. [00:10:20]

Solmaz Samae: I talk so much.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my.

Solmaz Samae: God. I had my sister in [00:10:25] the chair once, and at one point she just pulled my hand away and she was like, oh my [00:10:30] God, just give your mouth a break for a second.

[TRANSITION]: You [00:10:35] don’t need to be talking.

Payman Langroudi: Are you talking as you’re doing the treatment?

Solmaz Samae: Yeah, constantly. Because I [00:10:40] find that one. If I share personal information with the patients, then [00:10:45] it makes me human and they can relate to me a little more [00:10:50] and they can. It kind of shakes off that white coat syndrome a little bit. Yeah. And [00:10:55] two, it distracts them from what’s going on. [00:11:00] I don’t like the dentist. I don’t like going to the dentist. It’s anxiety provoking. [00:11:05] If I can make that enjoyable for them for that 20 minutes, for that half [00:11:10] an hour, why not? If they can enjoy coming in to see me and they [00:11:15] refer their mom or their sister, then I know I’ve done something right. [00:11:20] And when they come back to me in six months and I’ll do their BP and I’ve [00:11:25] got scores of zeros, then I’m laughing.

Payman Langroudi: You know, people underestimate [00:11:30] the importance of the soft side, the soft skills, because [00:11:35] I’ve you know, I was reflecting on this recently, my family [00:11:40] member needing a quite a major operation and [00:11:45] we were trying to pick between surgeons and, you know, we got my brother’s a [00:11:50] doctor. We know loads of medics and all that. And you know, it got loads of advice on who to see. And we [00:11:55] went to 3 or 4 of them, and in the end we picked the guy based on his [00:12:00] manner. Yeah. And this was a big operation. This wasn’t a mo. This [00:12:05] was a big operation. And when I say that, it seems like a strange thing to [00:12:10] do to decide who’s going to do this huge back operation based on [00:12:15] the way that he was with us. It’s got nothing to do with the way he’s going to carry out this operation. And [00:12:20] yet we felt like this is the guy for us. Now, if that’s true, with [00:12:25] all the knowledge that we’ve got, all the contacts that we’ve got. Imagine a patient [00:12:30] who’s scared of the dentist. And as you say, it’s not pleasant.

Solmaz Samae: It’s not.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:12:35] I think people think that, you know, they could go and get an MSC and upskill [00:12:40] and that will get them a job or something. Yeah, that’s the chair side manners, the most [00:12:45] important piece.

Solmaz Samae: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: And I’d say probably your superpower. [00:12:50] No.

Solmaz Samae: I think I’m a mediocre dentist in terms of skills. [00:12:55] Like I try, I’ll practice and I really want to I’ll go on endless [00:13:00] courses, but my chairside manner is, I think, where [00:13:05] I shine, and it’s because I genuinely care. I [00:13:10] love people like I just love people. And if I can [00:13:15] make their life a little better, just for half an hour. Just for 20 minutes, [00:13:20] you say.

Payman Langroudi: Genuinely care. Yeah, yeah, I’m sure every dentist genuinely cares. They do. Yeah. But [00:13:25] some, some of us, we genuinely care about the matrix positioning. Yeah. [00:13:30] And I’m sure you do. I’m sure you do. But when you’re saying I genuinely.

Solmaz Samae: More about [00:13:35] their back being comfortable.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. When you’re saying when you’re saying I genuinely care, you’re saying [00:13:40] I genuinely care about the experience being.

Solmaz Samae: That’s it, the whole experience. [00:13:45]

Payman Langroudi: Because I want.

Solmaz Samae: Them to come back. When I was doing my foundation [00:13:50] year, I had a mentor and I was getting very annoyed [00:13:55] with the support workers that were coming in. Like I was like really frustrated. [00:14:00] And he said, look, Saul, if the support workers are having a good time when [00:14:05] they are in your presence, then if the patient has an issue, they’re more [00:14:10] likely to bring the patient back. And I thought, oh.

Payman Langroudi: Support workers, [00:14:15] the nurse and.

Solmaz Samae: No, the support worker. So it was I was doing adult special [00:14:20] care.

Payman Langroudi: I supported the patient support.

Solmaz Samae: Patient support workers. So [00:14:25] not only was I dealing with then not dealing with just the patient, [00:14:30] I was ensuring that the support worker was having a good time in my presence, so [00:14:35] that they’re likely that if the patient has a little toothache or an issue, they’re likely to [00:14:40] bring the patient back and report it.

Payman Langroudi: Flicked a switch in your head.

Solmaz Samae: It did. [00:14:45]

Payman Langroudi: But I feel like you’re making it sound like quite a tactical move here, but I don’t think you’re doing it from a tactical [00:14:50] perspective. You’re doing it because that’s what you enjoy. I enjoy enjoying your [00:14:55] job is such an important thing.

Solmaz Samae: Payman I drive to work in the mornings [00:15:00] with a massive smile. I feel so lucky to [00:15:05] be going in and practising dentistry. I’ve been doing it for a few years now, so it’s [00:15:10] not that I’m just right into it. I love going into work. [00:15:15] I really enjoy it. I love the dentistry aspect of it, but just meeting [00:15:20] people and speaking to people, and when you’re going through your own life [00:15:25] issues, you know where you’re experiencing loss or a Break-Up. [00:15:30] Carve and you see 20 patients and life goes on [00:15:35] and you get to little, have a little chat with them. It’s therapeutic for you as well.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:15:40] I find look, I stopped practising in 2012. Yeah. And definitely [00:15:45] the bit I miss most about being a dentist is that bit. Yeah. Interaction, interaction, [00:15:50] the life stories. You know you learn so much from patients personally. Yeah. But [00:15:55] I, I found the NHS system just so difficult in [00:16:00] being able to have these conversations. Do you even manage it on NHS patients. [00:16:05] Are you that good that you can even in that short period of time? I [00:16:10] have have some time for that.

Solmaz Samae: I try to I really do try to. [00:16:15] There’s a balance though, because you can fall behind and [00:16:20] you have targets and you think, oh my God, it’s either you or me here [00:16:25] and you don’t want to be put in that position, which it’s it’s not a nice position to be [00:16:30] in, but I like to think that NHS patients come and they leave happy [00:16:35] and they all come back wanting to visit.

Payman Langroudi: Well then you’ve done quite a lot of [00:16:40] periods of your life where you’ve done both NHS and private. I have. And so [00:16:45] are you doing two different speeds of dentistry or two different types of dentistry, [00:16:50] or is your NHS side slowing down to kind of come closer [00:16:55] to your private, or is your private side speeding up? You know, I mean that running two different ways of practising [00:17:00] is quite hard.

Solmaz Samae: It is.

Payman Langroudi: It’s what are your reflections on that?

Solmaz Samae: It’s very challenging. [00:17:05] Um, where I fall behind on my NHS, I just tell myself that [00:17:10] I’ll make up for it with my private. So I still put in the same amount of [00:17:15] time. I still put in the same amount of effort. Because the lady I have in the chair is someone’s mum [00:17:20] is someone’s sister. And would I want the same for my mum and my sister? [00:17:25] So it comes back in roundabouts. I’ll make it up in some other way, [00:17:30] you know.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, so when I was a dentist, I was. I was the last job I was in was in a very high end [00:17:35] practice. Yeah. And I would, for instance, something I would say when I say soft [00:17:40] skills. Yeah. Part of soft skills for me was painless injection. Yeah. Yeah. [00:17:45] Yeah. Now painless injection. I would get the patient and dry the [00:17:50] mucosa thoroughly. Put the topical on for about seven [00:17:55] minutes. Yeah. Talk to the patient for seven minutes about [00:18:00] their life. Then as you’re putting that block in or that infiltrate [00:18:05] in very, very, very, very slowly. Yeah. So from the moment of the patient [00:18:10] walking in to the moment of them being numb would be around 15 minutes. [00:18:15] Now, that’s not possible. That’s not possible unless.

Solmaz Samae: You’ve got 20 minutes for an amalgam filling. How are [00:18:20] you going to do that?

Payman Langroudi: Exactly.

Solmaz Samae: You know.

Payman Langroudi: So this is the kind of point I’m making.

Solmaz Samae: Before they’ve even taken their coat off. [00:18:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but but then firstly, on the private side, the number of patients [00:18:30] that would send other patients because of painless injection that they’d never had before in [00:18:35] their lives. Yeah. So that was it definitely worked out. It wasn’t like that 15 minutes was [00:18:40] in in financial terms. I was I was losing out. I was definitely gaining [00:18:45] from that. People would could tell other people and I learned it from my wife. She has [00:18:50] loads of nervous patients that travel like miles and miles and miles to see her. And [00:18:55] I was thinking, wow, like wherever she goes, she’s always busy with these patients who love [00:19:00] her. And the main thing is that she’s very gentle and and so forth. It’s not possible [00:19:05] to deliver that on the NHS. So this is my question. What. So [00:19:10] so I know maybe, maybe, maybe that isn’t your protocol yet but something’s got to give. Yeah. And [00:19:15] I think it’s the conversations that give. You can’t have the filling having a problem. Right.

Solmaz Samae: No. [00:19:20] So something does have to give. You have to just find a balance, [00:19:25] a compromise. But.

Payman Langroudi: But then, doesn’t it depress you a little bit? When you’re doing NHS? [00:19:30]

Solmaz Samae: It does.

Payman Langroudi: It does.

Solmaz Samae: It does. But what depresses me more is [00:19:35] when I care more than the patient.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Solmaz Samae: That depresses me [00:19:40] more. You know where I’m paying out of pocket for you to be [00:19:45] here? I’m paying out of pocket to do these root canals like endless root canals.

Payman Langroudi: You’re losing [00:19:50] money.

Solmaz Samae: All on.

Payman Langroudi: And the patient doesn’t even care.

Solmaz Samae: No. And you [00:19:55] don’t care. And you’re still like, oh, yes. I’m only brushing once a day. I know I should be. And you’re like, oh, [00:20:00] that’s when I get frustrated.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:20:05]

Solmaz Samae: But for the people that I that care, I try and go [00:20:10] all out.

Payman Langroudi: All right. So you’re doing two days with the Saturn.

Solmaz Samae: It’s one day now [00:20:15] because I want to take a day off to concentrate more on my YouTube [00:20:20] and my content creating.

Payman Langroudi: And do you religiously on that day [00:20:25] work on your YouTube?

Solmaz Samae: Only just taken this time off really. Only just [00:20:30] taken this time off. And it doesn’t start till end of March. [00:20:35]

Payman Langroudi: So let’s talk about the YouTube here, because you seem like you’re [00:20:40] a total natural on it. Like when I, when I, when I’ve seen it. You seem like [00:20:45] a seasoned content creator. Thank you. Where did that come from?

Solmaz Samae: So [00:20:50] my sister, my younger sister started creating content when she [00:20:55] was in university. She is a ST2, OBS and Gynae surgeon [00:21:00] now and when she was in university she started doing it. And she’s got millions [00:21:05] and millions of viewers and we’ll go on holiday like different continents and she’ll get [00:21:10] recognised and it’s lovely. And I was up north doing my [00:21:15] foundation, my DFT, DCT, uh, yes, DFT, fact. And [00:21:20] I was lonely and I didn’t have many [00:21:25] friends there. I didn’t have much to do. And she was like, why don’t you start YouTube? Like do [00:21:30] dentistry one. And I thought, yeah, okay.

Payman Langroudi: Was hers a medical one? [00:21:35]

Solmaz Samae: Hers was her journey in medical school. And she, like people [00:21:40] have followed her all the way through first year of medical school. Yeah. So she’s been doing it for [00:21:45] many years now. And she suggested it and I was like, okay, I’ll [00:21:50] start. So I started it in English and it was Dental [00:21:55] based, and I did a couple of videos, and I recorded one video where I [00:22:00] was wearing my scrubs outside of dental settings, [00:22:05] but it was an old scrub that I was not I’d not worn in a dental setting [00:22:10] previously. And one of the ladies that I was working with and I worked [00:22:15] with her husband as well, she made a complaint against me and [00:22:20] it scared me. Payman. It scared.

Payman Langroudi: Me. Who did she complain to?

Solmaz Samae: She complained [00:22:25] to our clinical lead or clinical director. I was working at the time [00:22:30] and?

Payman Langroudi: And said what? She’s wearing her scrubs. And where was it? Where was the place you were wearing [00:22:35] your scrubs?

Solmaz Samae: So I finished doing what I was doing, and I was in the car and I was [00:22:40] recording, and it was during Covid, so I wasn’t even working. And there were old scrubs [00:22:45] and, you know, and the clinical director [00:22:50] had a little chat with me and was like, so this has been brought to my attention, [00:22:55] like, and it scared me because I work so hard [00:23:00] for my dentistry. Like I work so hard to get here. It’s so precious [00:23:05] to me. I’m so protective of it. So I got scared [00:23:10] and I stopped recording for a little while, just completely put it aside and I [00:23:15] missed it. And I thought, okay, I’ll go back to it, but I’m not going to do it in English [00:23:20] and I’m not going to do anything Dental based. So I don’t even give Dental [00:23:25] advice online. Okay. I have YouTube, I have Instagram, [00:23:30] but I don’t put anything that’s clinical on there at all. Like [00:23:35] you’ll see me dancing with my nurses, but that would be it.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:23:40] now you do it in Persian.

Solmaz Samae: Now I do it in Persian, which is amazing. However, my Farsi, [00:23:45] my reading and writing. Even though I went to Iranian school here, I went to Rotterdam for many [00:23:50] years. Um, and I’ve got an A level did really well, but my [00:23:55] Farsi is.

Payman Langroudi: Not as.

Solmaz Samae: Good as your English. Yes, it’s de-skilled, so reading [00:24:00] comments is so problematic for me. So I sit there sometimes in the evening. Forgive my friend [00:24:05] to my dad. I’m like, can you read this please? Because what I’m reading is not making sense. So [00:24:10] but yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Mean, what I’m interested in is a lot of dentists make content, [00:24:15] yes, but their motivation for making content is, in the end, to get [00:24:20] patients.

Solmaz Samae: Oh, no I’m not.

Payman Langroudi: But a lot are.

Solmaz Samae: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So what’s your [00:24:25] motivation? I mean, you’re not looking to get patients in speaking in Persian about [00:24:30] not dentistry.

Solmaz Samae: Not about dentistry, about cutting hair and going on [00:24:35] holiday with my sister.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s your motivation?

Solmaz Samae: I do it purely because I enjoy doing [00:24:40] it. I have fun, I enjoy recording, I enjoy editing, I enjoy uploading, [00:24:45] picking out thumbnails, tags, all of it.

Payman Langroudi: How is that [00:24:50] enjoyable? I mean, is it is it the reach? Is it the engagement?

Solmaz Samae: The engagement is [00:24:55] great. Like reading the comments is amazing. Walking in Brent Cross with my mum and [00:25:00] then someone randomly coming up to me. And what’s good about that?

Payman Langroudi: Do you like that?

Solmaz Samae: I love it, I [00:25:05] love it. And what I’ve taught, I realise now is that because they’ve watched me for some years, they [00:25:10] know me. So when I see them and greet them and they come up to me, I will greet them [00:25:15] like I’ve known them for years as well. Now, because they feel like they know me.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:25:20] but look, I get it, I get it. I’m at a dental conference. [00:25:25] Yeah. And someone comes up to me and says, hey, I listen to your podcast and I [00:25:30] like that. It’s a nice feeling. Yeah. And I talk to that person, and I really give that person or [00:25:35] someone says, I used enlightened on a patient and it really worked well. I like that. Yeah. But [00:25:40] it’s nice for me that that’s in a dental conference. I get my little high [00:25:45] from that. But if I’m in Brent Cross, no one recognises me. And that’s really nice for [00:25:50] me. I’m interested in the fact that no one recognises me in Brent Cross. I don’t [00:25:55] want to be recognised in Brent Cross. You know what I mean? Yeah. I want anonymity in the world. [00:26:00] Yeah. Or in a restaurant or wherever it is.

Solmaz Samae: Payman. I’m not so big [00:26:05] where I’m getting recognised left, right and centre.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe it’s.

Solmaz Samae: The worry.

Payman Langroudi: The worry of it. The it. The [00:26:10] worry of it. That’s for me. The worry. Worry over. I’m in, I’m in. I’m in a conference. I don’t have to worry [00:26:15] about it. I’m in a conference. Yeah, we’re all here to look at dentistry, right? It doesn’t matter, [00:26:20] all right? Loads of people come over and say hi. Well done. Whatever. Great, I love it. It’s a nice little. What’s [00:26:25] the chemical? Is it oxytocin? Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah.

Solmaz Samae: I [00:26:30] like that. What concerns me with that is safety [00:26:35] aspects.

Payman Langroudi: Right. That too. Have you had a stalker?

Solmaz Samae: A couple of situations. Have you [00:26:40] scared me quite a bit. So I had a little mini midlife [00:26:45] crisis at 40 and decided I wanted to go and pick up boxing. So I went to a boxing [00:26:50] camp in Thailand on my Jack Jones. Oh, it was an [00:26:55] amazing experience. But cold showers, morning workouts, [00:27:00] amazing and I’d post every day whilst I was there. No [00:27:05] one knew where this place was. They received a phone call at their camp, [00:27:10] and it was a lady wanting to come and see me in the camp, and it scared [00:27:15] me that she’d found me and that really scared me. I [00:27:20] had an incident a couple of years ago where a gentleman showed up to my local [00:27:25] pub because he’d seen on one of my sisters Instagram posts that I was [00:27:30] there, and that really scared me.

Payman Langroudi: So these guys didn’t do anything [00:27:35] crazy.

Solmaz Samae: They didn’t do.

Payman Langroudi: Anything. They found you, scared you.

Solmaz Samae: The fact that they found me [00:27:40] scared me. They didn’t do anything. And then once I explained to them that, oh, [00:27:45] like, I’m a little, like, scared by this, they’re [00:27:50] very understanding. And they explained that that wasn’t their intention. But [00:27:55] I’ve not had a stalker as such. No.

Payman Langroudi: Not [00:28:00] yet.

Solmaz Samae: Not yet.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, [00:28:05] so let’s talk about facial aesthetics.

Solmaz Samae: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the key to it? [00:28:10]

Solmaz Samae: Being honest with your patient, managing their expectations. [00:28:15] I.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Tell me like a ha moment, an aha moment. [00:28:20] So you were doing facial aesthetics and something happened, or you did something or someone said something and you [00:28:25] felt like that’s an aha! Like, I get it, I get this, I really understand this. What [00:28:30] moments can you what what comes to mind?

Solmaz Samae: I really understand it. Like facial harmony [00:28:35] in terms of that whatever.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever, whether it’s a clinical thing, a management thing.

Solmaz Samae: Okay. So [00:28:40] I got into facial aesthetics some years back because my sisters and I, we [00:28:45] work in different fields. We wanted something that would connect all three of us so that we could [00:28:50] continue working with each other, and we’d have this bridge and this bond that would keep us [00:28:55] closer. So we opened our first clinic, and it was on Harley Street. At the back [00:29:00] of that, we opened the second clinic in Essex, which was amazing. [00:29:05] We sold the Essex Clinic because we didn’t have the time to dedicate to it, but it did pretty [00:29:10] well and just concentrated on the one on Harley Street. And in [00:29:15] terms of the patients we see, we’re very, um, we’re selective [00:29:20] of the patients that we see. We do a lot of Botox, fillers, [00:29:25] PRP for hair loss, polynucleotides. I do a [00:29:30] lot of PRP for hair loss. Whilst I was at university, I [00:29:35] got alopecia, alopecia areata, [00:29:40] and it was stress induced where chunks of my hair fell [00:29:45] out and I had loads of bald patches all over my head. And [00:29:50] it was very, very concerning. Some months went back, it [00:29:55] went, and someone I love was diagnosed with cancer and [00:30:00] I realised that it’s just hair. It really does not matter [00:30:05] as long as the rest of you is healthy. Who cares? But I [00:30:10] can see why people would be upset if they were to lose their hair. [00:30:15] So I started looking into hair loss and prevention [00:30:20] and treatments.

Payman Langroudi: So what is the treatment?

Solmaz Samae: What is so PRP is [00:30:25] where you take the patient’s blood. You put platelet rich plasma therapy. You take the patient’s [00:30:30] blood, you put it in a centrifuge, and you inject the platelet rich plasma into the area and it wakes [00:30:35] up dormant hair follicles. It didn’t really work, and it doesn’t really work for alopecia [00:30:40] or alopecia areata. And I tell my patients this if they’re adamant [00:30:45] they want to try it, then we’ll try it. I’ve only [00:30:50] had one patient where it has worked for her, and when it did, like we were both [00:30:55] in tears looking at like before and after photos, like it was seven months of [00:31:00] treatment that she had. But in terms going back to your question, [00:31:05] aha moments, I think it is having a 60 year old [00:31:10] patient in the chair who doesn’t feel as attractive [00:31:15] as she did, and you just want to just make her feel a little better about [00:31:20] herself. And she leaves your clinic feeling just that, you know, there’s [00:31:25] a nice aha moments for me if someone comes in [00:31:30] with a filter on their face saying, I want to look like this, I’m like, no, I [00:31:35] can’t do that. If they want excessive fillers in their face, the profit [00:31:40] margin for fillers is incredible. You like, you make so much money [00:31:45] from fillers, but I would not touch it and overfill just to line [00:31:50] my pocket like it’s not how I work. Like I don’t mind. [00:31:55]

Payman Langroudi: Even if the patient’s asking for.

Solmaz Samae: It. No I can’t, no, because I don’t believe you need [00:32:00] it.

Payman Langroudi: So isn’t it his choice? Her choice?

Solmaz Samae: I don’t think it will [00:32:05] look good. I don’t want my name on that. I don’t want you to go tell people that Doctor Sol [00:32:10] did this.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting. So, look, there’s a there’s a degree in any aesthetic field. [00:32:15] Yes. We do have to look out for sort of body dysmorphic syndrome. Yeah, yeah. [00:32:20] That’s important. Even cosmetic dentistry, you do sometimes the problem isn’t the [00:32:25] way things look, the problems in the head.

Solmaz Samae: It’s more psychological.

Payman Langroudi: And people are trying to find a solution [00:32:30] for something. And they. And so that’s true. That’s real. Yeah, I get it. Is that what you’re alluding [00:32:35] to?

Solmaz Samae: That is. And you guide them to like another path [00:32:40] and you explain, look, this is not what I’m seeing. Yeah. You don’t need this. You [00:32:45] know, people will come in, we do something called fat dissolving injections, okay? And they’ll come [00:32:50] in and you assess them. You’ve done the full exam. Everything. And you say, look, I [00:32:55] really don’t believe that this is an issue here. I [00:33:00] really don’t think that this is an issue here. I think it’s more [00:33:05] something else. And you put them in touch with a therapist and it’s up to them then if they want [00:33:10] to take it further.

Payman Langroudi: So fat dissolving, injections [00:33:15] dissolving. In what situation do you use that.

Solmaz Samae: So patients who have [00:33:20] a little stubborn fat under their chin, for example. Okay. Or a [00:33:25] little pouch, maybe just on their belly.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Solmaz Samae: Different areas. [00:33:30] Okay. On their arms.

Payman Langroudi: And how long does that work for?

Solmaz Samae: It’s [00:33:35] permanent until if they were to overeat. But [00:33:40] you need to work. Yes. And they need several sessions. Again, unless [00:33:45] they really need it. I don’t recommend it.

Payman Langroudi: What’s that product.

Payman Langroudi: Called?

Solmaz Samae: Aqua. [00:33:50] So. And then there’s another one on the market now called lemon Bottle. Tool.

Payman Langroudi: All [00:33:55] right. So these are two things I had no idea existed. What other things are you doing that I don’t [00:34:00] know about apart from fillers and Botox?

Solmaz Samae: Uh, Fred’s. But I don’t touch Fred’s because. Yes, [00:34:05] PDO threads, they’re inserted into skin and he pulled the skin up with them, [00:34:10] but it’s more so. It’s like a little mini facelift, if you like. [00:34:15] How so? I don’t do this procedure, but my sister does. I don’t [00:34:20] do it because I like it is. It’s just a little too. I get a little squeamish with [00:34:25] it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So how about these sort of light treatments? Do you do those? [00:34:30]

Solmaz Samae: No. No light treatments.

Payman Langroudi: What’s that? What is that? I have no idea. Is it crap? I don’t.

Solmaz Samae: Know.

Payman Langroudi: Is [00:34:35] it.

Payman Langroudi: Is it? I don’t know. I have no idea. It’s crap. I don’t know it.

Payman Langroudi: Just see it. You know what I’m talking [00:34:40] about.

Payman Langroudi: The red light mask thing.

Payman Langroudi: Is that supposed to do something to your quality? You have no.

Payman Langroudi: Idea. [00:34:45] No, I don’t know enough about it.

Solmaz Samae: I only focus on more natural stuff and Botox. [00:34:50] I love Botox.

Payman Langroudi: So when you’re giving Botox?

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:34:55] are things that you know, most people don’t realise about what to do in that situation? [00:35:00] Like what do beginners not understand? That people who are more seasoned do understand? [00:35:05]

Solmaz Samae: Botox is very forgiving. Um, you need to be very well [00:35:10] as a dentist. We know the anatomy very, very well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Solmaz Samae: So [00:35:15] we’re perfect in doing Botox, but you need to manage your patient’s [00:35:20] expectations. Yeah. I really recommend the review. At two weeks after. [00:35:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Solmaz Samae: For all your patients. Um, I don’t like [00:35:30] a completely frozen face. I don’t like that. And I ask my patients if that’s [00:35:35] what they want. That’s what we’ll go for. But it’s nice to have a little expression. You know, [00:35:40] what you want to do is just delay the ageing process. Ageing is beautiful. We’re [00:35:45] so privileged to age. It’s amazing and it’s wonderful. [00:35:50] I look at my mom’s body, and I just absolutely love my mom’s body. You know, like, [00:35:55] all the scars, everything. It’s just gorgeous. And just to be able to [00:36:00] age is wonderful. It’s just delaying that process a little bit. With [00:36:05] Botox, it just relaxes the muscles a little bit. So they’re not working as fast.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s [00:36:10] the tip. Give less than you think.

Solmaz Samae: No.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Tip?

Solmaz Samae: The tip for Botox [00:36:15] review. Just review it. Don’t be scared.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:36:20] find I look. Obviously it’s a bit like saying, uh, I don’t like [00:36:25] cosmetic dentistry when you see bad cosmetic dentistry. Right. Because I’m sure good facial aesthetics, [00:36:30] you know, no one even realises it’s happening, right? But I find sometimes with Botox, you get this weird, [00:36:35] sort of angry look on the face. The eyebrows.

Payman Langroudi: Go. I’ve had Botox. Have you?

Solmaz Samae: Yes. [00:36:40] And look, I’ve still got movement.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Solmaz Samae: But it’s just a [00:36:45] little bit. Do I look angry?

Payman Langroudi: I’m pulling [00:36:50] a face.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve never seen you without Botox. Maybe without Botox. But [00:36:55] do you know what I’m talking about?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Eyebrows go up a little bit. Like a little [00:37:00] like that. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I just don’t. I don’t know enough about it yet, but I’m thinking [00:37:05] maybe people get super focussed in on a wrinkle and forget the fact [00:37:10] that the whole face is changing.

Payman Langroudi: The whole face.

Solmaz Samae: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what about fillers or fillers? Much [00:37:15] less technique. Like more technique sensitive, fillers.

Solmaz Samae: More technique [00:37:20] sensitive? Definitely. And what you have to realise with fillers, there’s a lot on the market. [00:37:25] Uh, some of them do not dissolve. So, like, [00:37:30] you can inject it and they won’t dissolve, so they’ll just stay. So if you were to inject a capillary [00:37:35] and you clued it, it’s just there.

Payman Langroudi: Well.

Solmaz Samae: And you’ll have people [00:37:40] come in or you see pictures where patients, the tip of their nose is like necrosed [00:37:45] and like falling off the side of the lip. So I really don’t like the fact [00:37:50] that anyone could not dispense [00:37:55] but practice.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Not regulated.

Payman Langroudi: Is it?

Solmaz Samae: It’s not [00:38:00] regulated, unfortunately.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Solmaz Samae: And that’s scary.

Payman Langroudi: And in the industry is there [00:38:05] is there sort of calls for it to be regulated? Would you would you.

Payman Langroudi: Like it like.

Solmaz Samae: It to be regulated? [00:38:10] I, um, I don’t think everyone should do it. I don’t think [00:38:15] a beautician should do it. You know, they have no education on the anatomy. And [00:38:20] if it goes wrong, then they don’t know how [00:38:25] to deal with the complications.

Payman Langroudi: And on the sort of the business side of it.

Solmaz Samae: Yes. [00:38:30]

Payman Langroudi: How profitable is it compared to.

Payman Langroudi: Other.

Payman Langroudi: Other bits like per hour? How [00:38:35] much can you make doing facial aesthetics compared to dentistry? Is it.

Payman Langroudi: Better?

Solmaz Samae: It’s. [00:38:40] Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Is it easier than dentistry?

Solmaz Samae: Easier than dentistry? It doesn’t have. The stress [00:38:45] of dentistry is not. It’s a different sort of satisfaction. It’s, um, [00:38:50] Botox, for example. Nice profit margin. And [00:38:55] it takes, what, 15 minutes?

Payman Langroudi: How much does it cost?

Solmaz Samae: Um. [00:39:00] It varies.

Payman Langroudi: 100 upwards for [00:39:05] the patient?

Solmaz Samae: No, for the patient, it’s £200 for three areas. We charge [00:39:10] for your products. It’s 100 plus.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just it’s the re order [00:39:15] rate. That’s beautiful on it from.

Payman Langroudi: The business perspective.

Solmaz Samae: And you forget that they’re [00:39:20] ageing. So they need to come back and see you more regularly. And if [00:39:25] they’re happy they’ll send their sister, their mum their husband. And it’s [00:39:30] not just Botox for men or anti ageing injectables for women, [00:39:35] it’s for men as well. Men have Botox, you know. Yes. [00:39:40] Or for hyperhidrosis Process, which is for [00:39:45] excessive sweating. As a child, I used to sweat so much and it was so [00:39:50] embarrassing. Payman to the point that I used to take a shirt with me to [00:39:55] school and change my uniform after lunch, because I’d have these [00:40:00] horrific sweat patches. And then I had the Botox [00:40:05] under my arms and it changed my life. There were certain colours that I couldn’t wear. [00:40:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s so is there any downside to that.

Solmaz Samae: To [00:40:15] the hyperhidrosis.

Payman Langroudi: Having Botox for that?

Solmaz Samae: Are there [00:40:20] downsides and complications for everything?

Payman Langroudi: I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Mean complications. Is there something around [00:40:25] I don’t know. You’re not getting rid of toxins or something like that. You know, people talk about.

Payman Langroudi: Antiperspirants. [00:40:30]

Solmaz Samae: Somewhere.

Payman Langroudi: Else.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You think of.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. [00:40:35]

Payman Langroudi: Listen, we’re going to go on to talk about mistakes.

Solmaz Samae: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: I want [00:40:40] to kind of ask you about facial aesthetics.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Mistakes. What comes [00:40:45] to mind if I talk about clinical errors you’ve made in this area? I mean, at the end of the day, you’re an experienced [00:40:50] practitioner.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What does that mean? Experience means you’ve come across a few [00:40:55] funny situations. Difficult situations. What comes to mind? What’s the most difficult situation you’ve come [00:41:00] across on facial aesthetics?

Solmaz Samae: Anything filler related, like just fillers, [00:41:05] generally fuel me with anxiety.

Payman Langroudi: Do you use the ones that don’t dissolve? [00:41:10]

Payman Langroudi: No.

Solmaz Samae: God, no. I use juvederm and any juvederm. But fillers? [00:41:15] Very anxiety provoking. Botox is not. Botox [00:41:20] is very forgiving. Prp is incredible. Polynucleotides amazing. [00:41:25] But with fillers from the minute you start injecting [00:41:30] till days after I give all my patients my direct WhatsApp [00:41:35] number and I tell them regardless of what time it is, message me. A few years [00:41:40] ago, I had a lady that I’d seen in Essex, in Essex [00:41:45] Clinic, and she, I saw her [00:41:50] and the following day my sister and I had gone away to Monaco, and the [00:41:55] entire trip was ruined because she was messaging me pictures of her face, [00:42:00] and I thought I’d included. I’d not, but I had to have one of my other sisters [00:42:05] see her in the Harley Street clinic, just to be sure. [00:42:10] That’s it.

Payman Langroudi: So you hadn’t done anything wrong?

Solmaz Samae: No, I hadn’t.

Payman Langroudi: So what about when you [00:42:15] had done something wrong?

Solmaz Samae: God.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [00:42:20] you know, another way of looking at it is your most difficult patient. Sometimes [00:42:25] you haven’t done anything wrong, but the patient themselves is a nightmare.

Solmaz Samae: Over [00:42:30] the years, you filter your patients, don’t you? So the patients you’re seeing now and like your [00:42:35] recalls and returning treatment of patients you love. If you’re not, [00:42:40] if you don’t have that bond with them, you stop seeing them. So [00:42:45] I can’t think of any at the minute. There’s been times where I’d [00:42:50] needed to see them for a lot of treatment, where the Botox [00:42:55] had just not taken.

Payman Langroudi: But but in that situation, is [00:43:00] there something that you could have done differently? I mean, we’re trying to get to a mistake you made that all [00:43:05] of us can learn from.

Payman Langroudi: God.

Solmaz Samae: Being selective [00:43:10] of your patient. Like if you can see that you can’t manage their expectation, or [00:43:15] if you can see or just feel you know it.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a spidey sense, right?

Payman Langroudi: That’s it. [00:43:20]

Solmaz Samae: And as soon as you feel it, like, don’t do it. It’s not worth [00:43:25] it. That little amount is really not worth the money. It’s really not worth the headache. [00:43:30] Like, just say no. Like, we’re so scared.

Payman Langroudi: Of seeing.

Payman Langroudi: Times where you’ve [00:43:35] had that.

Payman Langroudi: Feeling.

Payman Langroudi: But your ego might have taken over and thought, I can do this. [00:43:40]

Solmaz Samae: Yeah, or not even my ego just because.

Payman Langroudi: I was.

Payman Langroudi: A people pleaser.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:43:45]

Solmaz Samae: But also I was thinking maybe. Oh, it’s a [00:43:50] nice bit of cash.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Solmaz Samae: You know, and it’s that it’s like ten minutes, so stop it. What’s [00:43:55] wrong with you? Just get on with it, you know? And you, just afterwards, you’re like, [00:44:00] God, I wish I’d listened, you know? And you just [00:44:05] can’t manage them. And then at the end, you end up giving them a refund. [00:44:10] And I’m very quick Payman to. If someone’s unhappy with anything, [00:44:15] even with dentistry refund, it’s not worth my headache. It’s not worth my [00:44:20] heartache.

Payman Langroudi: On that subject, I mean, I’ve only worked in [00:44:25] places where I could make that decision straight away, but in your corporate setting.

Payman Langroudi: I.

Solmaz Samae: Don’t [00:44:30] mind if it comes out of my pocket. I really do not mind if it comes out of my pocket because [00:44:35] nothing is worth my mental health. I’ll pay it gladly out of my own [00:44:40] pocket.

Payman Langroudi: So in the corporate setting, you can do that. You can just say, right, I’m paying out of my pocket. End [00:44:45] of story.

Solmaz Samae: I’ve done it previously with Bupa, where they’ve been unhappy with a crown and I’ve just [00:44:50] been like. And they’re like, no, we’re not going to refund it. I was like, that’s fine, I’ll refund it.

Payman Langroudi: I agree [00:44:55] with you though. I agree with you. I think even if the patient is wrong. Yeah. [00:45:00] For me, that’s it’s an interesting point. People say, oh, you did everything [00:45:05] right, so you shouldn’t have to refund. Yeah. You didn’t do everything right. There’s an unhappy [00:45:10] patient. That’s it. Yeah. You know what I mean? I would say the patient is trying it [00:45:15] on. Yeah. That famous phrase. Yeah. All right. Patients trying it on. You [00:45:20] know, it’s still an unhappy patient. Yeah. You didn’t spot that. That was the kind of patient that might [00:45:25] be trying it on for me. If something goes wrong. Immediate refund. Immediate refund before. [00:45:30] So let’s take the money out of the equation first. Yeah, because something [00:45:35] went wrong. And you know, this idea that this patient will go into another patient [00:45:40] and another patient, that this one’s an easy person to get a refund out of. That is just not the way the world works.

Solmaz Samae: I [00:45:45] don’t agree with that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not the way the world works. And I find as soon as you can [00:45:50] dissociate from that refund. Yeah. As an you know, as [00:45:55] I say, even if you did everything absolutely right, you [00:46:00] still acknowledging that if the patient’s not happy, I’m not happy. It shows you [00:46:05] as the kind of dentist that people want to see, you know. But then I’ve had situations in corporates [00:46:10] where that’s happened and then it’s gone up the corporate chain and the, [00:46:15] you know, there’s been some difficulty around that refund and patients gone berserk and so [00:46:20] on. It’s one of those things. So now.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. [00:46:25]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s go back to your journey to getting into dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because it [00:46:30] was turbulent.

Payman Langroudi: It was.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s go into.

Payman Langroudi: It.

Solmaz Samae: So as [00:46:35] a teenager, I really wanted to study dentistry, and I [00:46:40] was. I saw [00:46:45] a gentleman hiking in the Himalayas, and he had a [00:46:50] backpack, and he was treating the Tibetan [00:46:55] monks. And I fell in love with the idea. I just I absolutely loved [00:47:00] the idea that he was travelling and treating people. [00:47:05] Dentally dentally.

Payman Langroudi: But what were the backpack? What did.

Payman Langroudi: He have? Like a drill. [00:47:10] Drill thing?

Solmaz Samae: He had more. He was extracting, but he.

Payman Langroudi: Had more.

Solmaz Samae: Than just the backpack. But you know, [00:47:15] I love that this solo man was just doing all of this. It was an older gentleman.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:47:20] were you doing in the Himalayas?

Solmaz Samae: We were hiking.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Solmaz Samae: We were trekking. Oh, it was [00:47:25] a it was a funny story. It was only once I got up there that I realised I was scared of [00:47:30] heights like idiots. Anyway. [00:47:35] So I fell in love with the idea. I came back, applied for dentistry. My biology let me down [00:47:40] and I ended up studying a different degree. Pharmaceutical Sciences at [00:47:45] Portsmouth worked for a couple of years.

Payman Langroudi: As a pharmacist.

Solmaz Samae: No. [00:47:50] So privately I had a banqueting suite. So I went, I worked here, [00:47:55] I had some money and my mum was like, you should invest it. I was like, what do I do?

Payman Langroudi: And she [00:48:00] was like, do.

Solmaz Samae: Something in.

Payman Langroudi: Iran.

Payman Langroudi: Rewind, rewind. What do you mean? You had a banqueting suite.

Solmaz Samae: Banqueting suite where [00:48:05] they have weddings.

Payman Langroudi: Well, that was a business you started.

Solmaz Samae: That was a business I started. So [00:48:10] I had some money here and my mum was like, you should invest it. And I was like, okay, what do [00:48:15] I do? She was like, go to Iran and start a business there. I was like, I don’t know much about Iran. [00:48:20] She was like, go, it’ll be okay. I was like, okay. So I [00:48:25] got I bought a banqueting suite. So it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Where?

Solmaz Samae: In [00:48:30] Birjand I’d say it was on two floors and there was a little flat [00:48:35] on top. 700 people. Weddings in Iran tend to be segregated. So [00:48:40] one floor for men, another floor for women, and then a little flat on top. And [00:48:45] I was working here in the UK and the banqueting suite was busy. They [00:48:50] had weddings all the time, but I wasn’t making any money. And they like send money, [00:48:55] send money, send money. I was like, what is going on? So I went to Iran to see what was going on, and [00:49:00] I was in the flat and I was coming down and I [00:49:05] could hear the manager speaking to someone else, and he said, do whatever [00:49:10] she says. She is leaving in a couple of weeks and we can go back to doing what we [00:49:15] want. He didn’t say it as nice as I just said it, and I thought, nah, it’s [00:49:20] not going to work like that, mate. So I ended up staying, Yang. I [00:49:25] oversaw it and I was getting homesick, so I’d spend three weeks there, one [00:49:30] week in the UK, three weeks there, one week in the UK, and I was going back and forth [00:49:35] and my suitcase was empty every time.

Solmaz Samae: So initially I’d take stuff back for people [00:49:40] and then they said, I thought, okay, let me start taking [00:49:45] clothes. So I started taking clothes back and bought a little boutique. [00:49:50] And so the boutique was doing well and I thought, okay, we’ve got this banqueting [00:49:55] suite. People are getting married like we need wedding dresses. Region doesn’t [00:50:00] have like a lot of bridal shops. So I went to Turkey, bought some bridal dresses, [00:50:05] opened the little bridal shop as well, all on my own. And then one [00:50:10] day I went to pay my taxes. And there and there was [00:50:15] a gentleman, Hussein and Hussein Agha, and he was [00:50:20] the head. He was head of tax or something. For that reason, in [00:50:25] Iran. And the person my assistant had gone to pay the bill and I was just sitting [00:50:30] with him and I was like, look, just to clarify, this is not how [00:50:35] much I’ve earned, but this is how much I’m, um. Not [00:50:40] what is it called when you.

Payman Langroudi: Like.

Payman Langroudi: Showing that you’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Earned.

Solmaz Samae: This is what I’m. How much I’m declaring. [00:50:45]

Payman Langroudi: Declaring this.

Solmaz Samae: Is what? How much I’m declaring. He’s like, oh my God, why [00:50:50] are you telling me this? I was like, because it needs to be halal. It needs to be kosher, otherwise it’s [00:50:55] not going to go right. And he really liked me at the back of that. So we became friends. [00:51:00] He was an older gentleman around my dad’s age, and we’d go and I’d go and visit him [00:51:05] daily. And one day that I was there, a another gentleman came in [00:51:10] and he kept bowing at this man so much. And he was. And after he left, he was like, their [00:51:15] tax bill is millions and da da da. I was like, oh, okay. He was like, he [00:51:20] manages the tile company for Birjand. I was like, wow. He [00:51:25] was like, they’ve got three factories. Did you know their furnaces are on all the [00:51:30] time? And I was like, no, I didn’t know that. And he said, because their furnaces [00:51:35] are on all the time, they’ve got employees around the clock and in Birjand. If [00:51:40] you’re employing someone, you have to provide their lunch and their dinner. [00:51:45] And I said to him, who provides their lunch? And he said, I don’t know. I was like, [00:51:50] who provides their dinner? And he was like, I don’t know. I was like, well, I want that from you. I was like, if they [00:51:55] don’t have a kitchen, I want my kitchen for my banqueting suite to [00:52:00] supply them with their food. And he was like, okay. So the next day he arranged [00:52:05] a meeting and we went to the banquet to the tile place [00:52:10] to speak to someone. And as we went in, I saw a young [00:52:15] man. So I told a couple of weddings a month, and these would [00:52:20] be for people who can’t afford it.

Solmaz Samae: So, like the people [00:52:25] from the orphanage who’d gotten older and they couldn’t afford it, and the young guy that was there, [00:52:30] I had I held his wedding at my place like a gift from me [00:52:35] to him and his wife. And he was like, oh my God, what are you doing here? And I was like, I’m here for [00:52:40] this. And he was like, oh, amazing. And then another gentleman came and he was like, [00:52:45] I know you. And I was like, you do. He was like, yes. So what [00:52:50] I would do during the day, because I didn’t know many people there and I didn’t socialise. I used to go to [00:52:55] the old people’s home and they’re segregated in Iran. [00:53:00] So you have male and female segregated. Initially I went to the men’s bar, but I didn’t really like [00:53:05] it. I didn’t feel comfortable. So I went to the women’s one and they would [00:53:10] they would be sitting there and I’d go and I’d taken them some instruments [00:53:15] and stuff, and they would play and I would dance for them. So that’s how I used to spend [00:53:20] some of my days when I wasn’t working. And he said, my wife manages the old [00:53:25] people’s home that you go to. And she’s told me about you. I was like, oh, that’s lovely. [00:53:30] And he was like, why are you here? And I was like, for this. And at the back of that, [00:53:35] they spoke to the manager as well, and I ended up getting this amazing [00:53:40] deal where I was supplying the food for all three factories as well. [00:53:45]

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Solmaz Samae: So the business ended up doing really, really well. And I must have been [00:53:50] 29. And I thought, okay, I’m making money, but I’m not [00:53:55] satisfied. And I spoke to my dad and I said, look, I really want [00:54:00] to go back and study dentistry. I feel like I’m just not satisfied. [00:54:05] And he said, you’re going to be working for another 3 or 4 decades if [00:54:10] you think it’ll make you happy. You have mine and your mum’s support. Go and do it. [00:54:15] So I applied for UK universities and I didn’t get a place. And [00:54:20] my sister told me about an agency that sent people abroad. [00:54:25] So I went and I wanted to go to Prague. And [00:54:30] when I got there, they said, look, we’ve got a new university that’s signed [00:54:35] up with us. Would you be interested in having a little look? And I said, of [00:54:40] course. They showed me the prospectus and it looked beautiful. It had this wonderful beach [00:54:45] and it was RSU in Riga, Latvia, [00:54:50] and there was a beach and there was sun and I thought, amazing. [00:54:55] The first winter it was -26 degrees.

Payman Langroudi: I was like, oh [00:55:00] my God.

Solmaz Samae: I’m like.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Solmaz Samae: So I started that September [00:55:05] and went, I was in Latvia for five years [00:55:10] and I remember starting and there was a dentist that sings, and he was [00:55:15] like, so you’re pushing 30. You should be pushing a pram, my love. Why are you going to uni? [00:55:20] And I thought, nah, I’m going. And a lot of people would comment like, you’re too [00:55:25] old for it and you’re never too old. There’s a beautiful Iranian saying that [00:55:30] says, as of today, whenever you catch a fish, [00:55:35] it’s fresh. Meaning it’s never too late. And so [00:55:40] I did. I graduated from Riga in 2018.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:55:45] Okay. But you’re going to just say that about Riga. I’d like to know more about [00:55:50] like.

Payman Langroudi: What would.

Solmaz Samae: You like.

Payman Langroudi: To know?

Payman Langroudi: So. So did you have to learn the language?

Solmaz Samae: No, it was done in English. [00:55:55] The only Latvian I know is at Ludlow. Which means. [00:56:00] Please open your mouth. And I used to know a metre of tequila, please. [00:56:05] But all those metres of tequilas. I’ve forgotten how to say it now.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:56:10] Kush was there.

Payman Langroudi: From Dental? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And salmon.

Solmaz Samae: And [00:56:15] salmon was.

Payman Langroudi: Their.

Payman Langroudi: New life in.

Payman Langroudi: Belfast.

Payman Langroudi: Good friends of.

Payman Langroudi: Mine.

Solmaz Samae: And [00:56:20] we were in the same class and it was amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Do you have.

Payman Langroudi: Fun?

Solmaz Samae: We had an [00:56:25] incredible.

Payman Langroudi: Because both of those two.

Payman Langroudi: Guys had a great time.

Payman Langroudi: And we.

Solmaz Samae: Had an incredible [00:56:30] time. It was so much fun. Amazing time. So many [00:56:35] memories. Crazy.

Payman Langroudi: But then, I mean, how would you treat patients without knowing the language other than open [00:56:40] your mouth?

Solmaz Samae: I didn’t know anything about consent until I got here. Consent was not [00:56:45] a thing. As soon as they sat in the chair, you had consent. In terms of what? Treatment [00:56:50] options? There was no treatment options for them. It was whatever you needed. Like to [00:56:55] get past the semester, you know, okay, I need composites. So that’s what we’re doing [00:57:00] I need amalgam, so that’s what we’re doing. I need a crown and that’s what we’re doing. And [00:57:05] I got here and I had to wait a couple of months [00:57:10] to get my GDC, and I was lucky enough [00:57:15] that the lady I was working with who was my, um, [00:57:20] I’ve forgotten what the role is now, but [00:57:25] she, instead of waiting for me to get the GDC and start working, [00:57:30] she said, look, during this time, would you like to shadow me? And I thought, yes, I’d love [00:57:35] to shadow you. Yeah, definitely. So I started shadowing her, and for two months. [00:57:40] And that’s when I learned everything from this wonderful human being. [00:57:45] Rachael Nichol, who’s a consultant paediatrics up in Up [00:57:50] North.

Payman Langroudi: Rotherham.

Solmaz Samae: In Sheffield.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:57:55] what do you think was deficient about that course? What did what did they teach well [00:58:00] and what did they not teach so well?

Solmaz Samae: Clinical side. Incredible. Amazing. Like surgeries. [00:58:05]

Payman Langroudi: He did quite a lot of hands on.

Solmaz Samae: Yes. So surgeries and extractions [00:58:10] are amazing. Um, we had moogs where you stimulators where you’d practice [00:58:15] on. And I remember the first session, we had a surgical [00:58:20] teacher who took us in, and she took us out of the room. The stimulating [00:58:25] room took us into the dental hospital. And she was like, no, you need to smell blood. [00:58:30] And we started seeing the dental emergency patients on [00:58:35] a Wednesday, after I would finish university, I would go upstairs and work in [00:58:40] the lab, and I would assist the lab assistants so that I could understand the lab aspects [00:58:45] of it. Saturdays during the day, I there was a max [00:58:50] FAC surgeon, and because I was older, he had a little crush on me and I [00:58:55] used this to my benefit and nursed for him on Saturdays so that I could [00:59:00] learn more about that aspect of it.

Payman Langroudi: Because your journey to dentistry was [00:59:05] a little bit more difficult?

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Do you feel like you were really going for it?

Payman Langroudi: Like 100%. [00:59:10]

Payman Langroudi: Trying to get the most.

Payman Langroudi: Out of it?

Solmaz Samae: 100%. I worked very, very hard, but [00:59:15] I partied very hard as well. You need a.

Payman Langroudi: Balance.

Payman Langroudi: I like that very few people in the world can [00:59:20] pull pull that off. You know, I was trying to get that in my son. I was saying, work hard, play hard. Such a [00:59:25] great way to play.

Payman Langroudi: Work hard, play harder.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But when I got to dentistry aged 19. [00:59:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Spoilt kid. Yeah. First time away from home. Um, [00:59:35] you know, I didn’t make the most of it. I didn’t, I struggled at first. I [00:59:40] found it very hard. Um, and and I think, you know, that I [00:59:45] know so many people who’ve studied abroad. And when they come back, they want to really [00:59:50] make a big impact as well, you know? And Kunal Patel [00:59:55] talks about the idea that he studied in Prague, and he talks about the idea that when [01:00:00] you come back from there, you haven’t got the fear of the With the GDC in [01:00:05] your head, in the same way as UK graduates have, because no one’s ever told you about the GDC. [01:00:10] And he said that that actually was an advantage for him because he would just [01:00:15] jump in and do stuff without worrying that there’s going to be a problem. Whereas all the UK [01:00:20] graduates, especially at the time he was graduating, it was sort of peak GDC moment. So all the UK graduates [01:00:25] were so scared to do anything. So from that perspective, from that angle, [01:00:30] what would you say was the, you know, the big advantage of studying there? [01:00:35] And what would you say is the big disadvantage?

Solmaz Samae: The biggest disadvantage [01:00:40] is.

Payman Langroudi: People wouldn’t give you jobs.

Payman Langroudi: Here, I guess, right. Is that.

Payman Langroudi: Something. [01:00:45]

Solmaz Samae: The jobs aspect of it? I was lucky in that I did my foundation year. I [01:00:50] did a DCT course, but you.

Payman Langroudi: Managed to get into.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Solmaz Samae: I did, I managed to get [01:00:55] into it. So I’m very proud of myself for that. That was an incredible [01:01:00] achievement and that changed my router dentistry and my understanding of it because [01:01:05] I learned how it works in the UK. So all of the study [01:01:10] days really helped me. And because I was with other UK graduates [01:01:15] here, I learned more. But you constantly. There’s [01:01:20] this imposter syndrome that you cannot shake off when you’re from abroad [01:01:25] internally.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. Really?

Solmaz Samae: Yes. Because you constantly [01:01:30] think that I wasn’t good enough to get into a UK university. [01:01:35] I had to pay to go to university privately. So [01:01:40] you feel like you’re not smart enough. So when people ask you where did you study? A [01:01:45] little bit of you just kind of like, oh, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Latvia. You [01:01:50] know, because I wasn’t.

Solmaz Samae: Good enough for the UK.

Payman Langroudi: That’s interesting. [01:01:55]

Solmaz Samae: There is this, there is that. And so would it [01:02:00] be imposter syndrome.

Payman Langroudi: Or.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever you want to call it? What was the advantage [01:02:05] of studying?

Solmaz Samae: The advantage? Was that.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe.

Payman Langroudi: The same thing, right?

Payman Langroudi: The [01:02:10] chip.

Payman Langroudi: On the.

Payman Langroudi: Shoulder that.

Payman Langroudi: It gave you now drives you harder.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Solmaz Samae: It’s the [01:02:15] people and the experience. You’re in this very close community of [01:02:20] international students and the ones you build for life. I [01:02:25] shared a house with a medical student, Nico, and [01:02:30] we see each other, like, regularly. German students?

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Solmaz Samae: So I go [01:02:35] to Dusseldorf and visit him. He comes here and I good friends, good bond. [01:02:40] Because you have no family there. Your friends and your classmates are your family. [01:02:45] They see you at your most vulnerable. So if you’re ill, [01:02:50] if you’re poorly, you know, even a cold. They’re there. Someone in Kush shared [01:02:55] the same house for many years, and they’ve seen different sides of each other, but it’s [01:03:00] nice, but also where you’re paying for your degree.

Payman Langroudi: How much was it?

Solmaz Samae: It’s [01:03:05] now 20 something [01:03:10] thousand euros. I think when I first started was €14,000, and then it started [01:03:15] going up a year, and where I was paying for it independently at the back [01:03:20] of my business, and I kept the business for a couple of years.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Did you?

Solmaz Samae: Yes. I would go back [01:03:25] like Christmases. I would go back to Iran, summer holidays when everyone [01:03:30] else is out partying. I would go back to Iran and I would work, you know. [01:03:35]

Payman Langroudi: So you so you.

Payman Langroudi: Paid the whole fees yourself out of your business.

Solmaz Samae: I paid three the first three [01:03:40] years, and my parents paid the last two because I had to close the business down and they [01:03:45] paid the last two.

Payman Langroudi: So the kind of person who manages to pull [01:03:50] that off. Yeah, it’s not a joke. Not a joking matter.

Payman Langroudi: Like across.

Payman Langroudi: Three [01:03:55] countries. A business in Iran. And even people I know, people who’ve got gigantic businesses [01:04:00] in Iran that when they talk about what it is to have a business in Iran, it’s a very, very [01:04:05] difficult. A woman not there from abroad. Yeah. Like like that’s a massive [01:04:10] achievement to to even do that one piece. But then to take that and [01:04:15] go to a third country, study dentistry, you know, I feel like you’re sort [01:04:20] of like pure bread winner.

Solmaz Samae: You’re too.

Payman Langroudi: Kind.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:04:25] but but but the what I would expect is now for you to make some massive move, like [01:04:30] open a clinic or whatever it is. Now, I know you’ve got the Harley Street thing, but. [01:04:35]

Payman Langroudi: Have you got plans.

Solmaz Samae: To open a dental? Everyone wants me to open a dental clinic, [01:04:40] and I would do at some point, I think. I’m still. It’s [01:04:45] nice to work for someone else.

Payman Langroudi: It’s nice.

Payman Langroudi: Being an associate is one of the best positions. [01:04:50]

Payman Langroudi: In the world.

Solmaz Samae: You leave, you take your lips off.

Payman Langroudi: And.

Solmaz Samae: That’s it. There’s no stress.

Payman Langroudi: Dress. Yeah. [01:04:55]

Solmaz Samae: You’re done. Is someone else’s.

Payman Langroudi: Especially if you’re a successful associate. You know, like, there’s some [01:05:00] associates. I call them super associates. Right. Probably someone like you. You’ve got a [01:05:05] following. Patients come to them so they can move practices. They can negotiate [01:05:10] percentages with practices.

Payman Langroudi: Is it.

Solmaz Samae: When patients move.

Payman Langroudi: Practices?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So, [01:05:15] you know, I’m thinking of, uh, Matty Parsons. He’s got such a powerful social [01:05:20] media presence that wherever he goes, it would be full filled with patients. Cosmetic [01:05:25] patients. And he doesn’t have to do any CQC or run the business or anything. I [01:05:30] can understand someone like that saying, listen, I’m so happy in this situation. I don’t want to ever do anything else. Yeah. [01:05:35] But someone like you. Yeah. Who did what you did? Yeah. Which is much harder than opening [01:05:40] a clinic in the UK. Much harder. Yeah. You’d pull it off. You’d [01:05:45] pull it off in a really serious way. And I’d be interested with your sort of experience, [01:05:50] your outlook. What kind of clinic [01:05:55] that would be. So indulge me. Like, let’s let’s say [01:06:00] a friendly billionaire came over and said, go for it. Do do your worst. Like, what [01:06:05] would you do? What?

Payman Langroudi: What clinic is in your head?

Solmaz Samae: A few investors that are dying for me to open [01:06:10] a clinic. And I don’t know why I’m not.

Payman Langroudi: You’re too.

Payman Langroudi: Happy.

Solmaz Samae: Do you think that’s [01:06:15] what it is?

Payman Langroudi: You seem too happy.

Solmaz Samae: I’m very happy.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a weird thing. Yeah, [01:06:20] because contentment, right? Contentment is beautiful. But, you know, [01:06:25] especially in our culture, there’s a there’s almost like a resentment of contentment almost means, oh, you’re decaying. [01:06:30] You’re not you’re not moving forward because you’re you’re too you’re too comfortable. Yeah. [01:06:35] And it shouldn’t be that way. I mean, contentment should be what your peace should [01:06:40] be what your you’re chasing, right? And I think about my life now, I think about every [01:06:45] single decision. I think, is this decision going to bring me more peace [01:06:50] or more disturbance. You know, whatever the decision is, I’m going [01:06:55] to hire someone, fire someone, bring in a new product, whatever, whatever the idea is, you [01:07:00] know, go on holiday, not go on holiday. You know, I was explaining to you, is this going to bring me [01:07:05] more peace or not? And so that hasn’t always been the way for me, right? I’ve always confused [01:07:10] joy with happiness. Yeah. And they’re not [01:07:15] the same thing at all, right? They’re totally different things. But I have made made that mistake [01:07:20] for the first 40 years. So. So how do you look at that question [01:07:25] now? I mean, especially with that 30 minute closed II spa moment [01:07:30] that you have, are you less inverted commas, ambitious [01:07:35] than you were? Are you now seeking peace? And, [01:07:40] you know, how do you think about what I’m just saying.

Solmaz Samae: Sorry. [01:07:45] Um. My [01:07:50] sisters. Don’t let me not be ambitious. They inject that in me. [01:07:55] So whenever I do stagnate a little bit, they do. There is [01:08:00] no value high enough for your peace. Your peace is. My peace [01:08:05] is worth so much to me. So much to me. It’s not [01:08:10] that I’ve lost motivation or ambition. No, I still I’m [01:08:15] very driven. But I feel like I need this period. [01:08:20] This is my calm now, and I’m just going to enjoy my calm. And the rest [01:08:25] of it will come and it’ll come at the right time. But for now, I just need to [01:08:30] enjoy this peace and enjoy this calm.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, in any event. [01:08:35] Yeah. Let’s say you decide to open a practice, which you’re going to indulge me on what that practice is, and [01:08:40] then someone will come along and say, well, what about three practices? [01:08:45]

Solmaz Samae: Where do.

Payman Langroudi: You start?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I mean, I had Anoushka from, uh, Mira [01:08:50] Dental sitting where you’re sitting. 46 practices and three children.

Solmaz Samae: I’ve [01:08:55] spoken to her. She interviewed me for a job.

Payman Langroudi: I couldn’t.

Solmaz Samae: Take it. She [01:09:00] is incredible.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Solmaz Samae: What a lovely human being. [01:09:05]

Payman Langroudi: Lovely. You’d imagine someone who’s pulling.

Payman Langroudi: That off could be quite.

Payman Langroudi: Hard. But she’s very soft, [01:09:10] mother. Yeah. You know, and she does all of this.

Solmaz Samae: She’s super.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:09:15] She’s super woman.

Payman Langroudi: But then. But then. But then I had the CEO of Bupa sitting [01:09:20] where you’re sitting. Yeah. 400 practices. Yeah. My point is, it never ends.

Payman Langroudi: No. [01:09:25]

Payman Langroudi: So this question of peace and ambition and contentment, [01:09:30] the kind of in intention with each other, aren’t they?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s [01:09:35] nice that you’re saying, look, right now, you are where you are and you’re happy.

Solmaz Samae: Do you know where it’s going to end for you? Where is [01:09:40] the. So you’ve got the podcast now. You’ve got incredible enlightenment. You’ve got the mini [01:09:45] smile makeovers. What do you know? Yours?

Payman Langroudi: Um, for me, it’s like. As long as I’m enjoying, [01:09:50] I’m very enjoyment. Joy based, unfortunately.

Payman Langroudi: So good.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll [01:09:55] carry on doing this until I stop enjoying doing it. I enjoy doing this a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Good.

Solmaz Samae: And you [01:10:00] can tell you enjoy it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But, but but it is for lack of other hobbies. [01:10:05] Like, I don’t have lots of hobbies. And so now this. This, I’m really hooked on to it [01:10:10] because it feels like a hobby, you know? Like, what the hell is a hobby? You know, like.

Payman Langroudi: Something you enjoy, something. [01:10:15]

Payman Langroudi: You enjoy, something you’re trying to get better at, something that you do regularly.

Payman Langroudi: You know, YouTube.

Payman Langroudi: Your [01:10:20] YouTube, your gym side.

Solmaz Samae: I started writing as well.

Payman Langroudi: Horse riding.

Solmaz Samae: Yes, [01:10:25] I love that.

Payman Langroudi: Where.

Solmaz Samae: You know.

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Solmaz Samae: Thrift near [01:10:30] Thrift Lane and near Whetstone.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:10:35] okay.

Solmaz Samae: Beautiful. I really enjoy that.

Payman Langroudi: I want to talk about the charity. Yes, [01:10:40] I want to talk about your dream practice.

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Which order do you want to go?

Payman Langroudi: Up. [01:10:45]

Solmaz Samae: Whichever one you decide.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [01:10:50] talk about practice.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Solmaz Samae: Dream practice.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Solmaz Samae: I have. I’ll [01:10:55] show you my phone later. I have a picture on my phone, and it’s my vision [01:11:00] board of what I want. And I do a vision board every year of what I want. And [01:11:05] I’ll show you my vision board later. And it’s got a picture of the practice. [01:11:10] I want some other people come in and they [01:11:15] bring their children like it’s a family event where they come in for their dental check-ups. [01:11:20] I want the nurses, the reception staff to actually enjoy coming [01:11:25] in to enjoy the practice. It’s a safe haven for them, and [01:11:30] I want it to make money for me so I can do all the stuff that I love. I don’t know how I’m going to do [01:11:35] it. I don’t know how I’ll get there, but that’s what I want.

Payman Langroudi: Like a safe [01:11:40] location for Okay. Where are we?

Solmaz Samae: I love Harley Street.

Payman Langroudi: That’s not. But that’s not a family. [01:11:45]

Payman Langroudi: Practice, is it?

Payman Langroudi: It’s not.

Payman Langroudi: Although, by the way, when I used to, I was a kid. I used to go to my dentist [01:11:50] in Harley Street. I didn’t realise it was Harley Street. So kids do go to dentists [01:11:55] in Harley Street. They do. But when you say family, it doesn’t sound like a family setting.

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t [01:12:00] somewhere.

Solmaz Samae: Like, you know where Nicola has her practice? Nicola [01:12:05] go. Whetstone. Not so much whetstone, more Totteridge I’d love that. Hers [01:12:10] is opposite Whetstone and Totteridge Station. Like near that.

Payman Langroudi: So we moved there from [01:12:15] Harley Street.

Solmaz Samae: That would be another nice location because it’s not too far from where [01:12:20] I live.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but.

Solmaz Samae: I really like Harley Street. I don’t know if it’s because as [01:12:25] Iranians like Harley Street’s just kind of being cemented in our head from [01:12:30] a very dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Right? Yes. As dentist.

Solmaz Samae: Harley Street, Wimpole.

Payman Langroudi: Street, but there’s massive I mean, [01:12:35] I used.

Payman Langroudi: To do some work there, and I.

Payman Langroudi: Found.

Payman Langroudi: That, like, the problem is once you’re there, you [01:12:40] realise that it’s got its own very peculiar problems. [01:12:45] Yeah, like number one. Harold de Walden. Like the estate? [01:12:50] Yeah. Like what a nightmare. Yeah, but number two, no walk by traffic [01:12:55] at all. Yeah. No. Like, for instance, how are you filling this facial aesthetic centre with patients? [01:13:00] I mean, is it is it literally friends and family? And then suddenly it just each [01:13:05] patient sends more.

Payman Langroudi: Patients.

Solmaz Samae: That I do. No advertisement at all for it. Like [01:13:10] very nothing. And it’s booked.

Payman Langroudi: Does the YouTube bring patients? [01:13:15]

Payman Langroudi: It does. Oh, so there is a tactic there.

Payman Langroudi: There is a.

Payman Langroudi: Tactic.

Solmaz Samae: Youtube does, the Instagram [01:13:20] does my sister’s YouTube and Instagram does. I did my younger [01:13:25] sister’s, um, Invisalign some years back. And [01:13:30] at the back of that I got so many Invisalign patients [01:13:35] a couple months back.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, because you YouTube the whole thing?

Solmaz Samae: Because she.

Payman Langroudi: Youtube. She’s got a huge thing. [01:13:40] That’s it.

Solmaz Samae: So at the back of that, I got an influx of patients, [01:13:45] and she really wanted me to do her bonding for her. And I really didn’t want to because I [01:13:50] love her teeth and I love the shape. And but she three years down, she [01:13:55] forced me and I did it recently for her. At the back of that I got loads of bonding [01:14:00] just so I’m getting a lot of patience from her YouTube and her [01:14:05] Instagram. So I’m feeding off that, which is beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah, [01:14:10] I.

Payman Langroudi: Just want to talk about the practice.

Payman Langroudi: The practice.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Family. So what what else what [01:14:15] are we talking? Facial aesthetics. Multidisciplinary.

Payman Langroudi: No, I.

Solmaz Samae: Don’t like mixing the two I [01:14:20] don’t like.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Solmaz Samae: No, I don’t like.

Payman Langroudi: You think they should be separate?

Solmaz Samae: Definitely. Like you [01:14:25] don’t understand how protective I am over dentistry. Like it’s so protective. I [01:14:30] worked so hard to get here. Those five years in Latvia, as fun as they [01:14:35] were, they were How a woman in her 30s. I gave up five years of [01:14:40] my life. Where? 30 to 35. Where it’s [01:14:45] your peak years, where everyone else is meeting people, settling down, [01:14:50] having family. I gave that up for dentistry because I love dentistry [01:14:55] that much. So I’m so protective of dentistry, I can’t have [01:15:00] anything mixed with it.

Payman Langroudi: I be careful a [01:15:05] little bit, insomuch as you put that much love. Love. But but, [01:15:10] you know, like that much of your hopes and dreams into the notion [01:15:15] of a job, you know, and I know we all do. We define ourselves as our job, [01:15:20] a lot of us. Yeah. Um, but, you know, God forbid something [01:15:25] happens GDP wise. Yeah.

Solmaz Samae: I’ll move to a different country.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But [01:15:30] all I’m saying, all I’m saying is, all I’m saying is. That. Okay, [01:15:35] I understand you had a difficult journey to get to dentistry, but anything [01:15:40] worthwhile is full of sacrifice, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Like I think about the number [01:15:45] of times I’ve missed birthdays and holidays and things [01:15:50] just because of enlightenment, for whatever reason it was. Or even, you know, my [01:15:55] five years in Cardiff was a sacrifice in its own way. So [01:16:00] my my point is don’t over put emphasis on it. Yeah, [01:16:05] I get it. I get the.

Payman Langroudi: Reason why you’re saying.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s almost like investing, like over [01:16:10] investing in the notion, you know, I’m so protective of dentistry [01:16:15] thing. Let it let that be organic, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you. [01:16:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Let’s get to the charity.

Solmaz Samae: The charity?

Payman Langroudi: Now, I don’t know, every time charity [01:16:25] comes up on this pod, I always try and ruin it a little bit.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And and I’ve. I [01:16:30] don’t want to do that this time, But there is.

Payman Langroudi: You can.

Solmaz Samae: Ruin [01:16:35] it.

Payman Langroudi: There is.

Payman Langroudi: This.

Payman Langroudi: Question.

Payman Langroudi: There is this question I have. I want you to tell me about your charity. But this question I have about [01:16:40] the act of charity.

Solmaz Samae: We do it because it makes us feel [01:16:45] good.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Solmaz Samae: And of I did, um, I [01:16:50] had broken up with a partner and I wasn’t in [01:16:55] an amazing place in my life, and, um, I [01:17:00] just needed to do stuff to make me feel good. And [01:17:05] I volunteered for CMA Crisis Management [01:17:10] Association, and I did it purely to make myself [01:17:15] feel good. That was it.

Payman Langroudi: So honest.

Solmaz Samae: It’s the truth.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:17:20] honest.

Payman Langroudi: Well, I.

Solmaz Samae: Did it to make myself feel good. It was brilliant that other people [01:17:25] benefited from it, but it was for selfish reasons. I needed to [01:17:30] do it for me. And I went in and [01:17:35] I was there and I was on my own. So during the day I would see [01:17:40] patients in Lesbos. This was in Lesbos.

Payman Langroudi: So were you staying in the camp? [01:17:45]

Solmaz Samae: No, I stayed in a hotel. Okay, so I stayed in a hotel. I didn’t want to rough [01:17:50] it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Doing it for yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Anyway. That’s it.

Solmaz Samae: So [01:17:55] in the evenings, after we’d finished, I would go back to my nice hotel. I would have [01:18:00] my nice meal.

Payman Langroudi: My protein, you know.

Solmaz Samae: And [01:18:05] actually seafood.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I’m sure.

Payman Langroudi: Lesbos is.

Solmaz Samae: Amazing. [01:18:10] Like octopus. Oof! I’m such a foodie.

Payman Langroudi: Like I’m a fat.

Solmaz Samae: Person.

Payman Langroudi: Inside. [01:18:15] I’m a fat person outside.

Payman Langroudi: But. Okay, let’s talk about the patients.

Payman Langroudi: The patients? [01:18:20]

Payman Langroudi: What were their stories like? What were some of the heartbreaking stories.

Payman Langroudi: That you must have.

Payman Langroudi: Come.

Payman Langroudi: Across? [01:18:25]

Solmaz Samae: One of the first patients on the first day, I’m doing a medical history, and he tells me he has one kidney. So [01:18:30] because I speak Farsi, I didn’t need a translator. But I had a translator, [01:18:35] a lovely, lovely young man that I still speak to. And [01:18:40] for this one, the patient was Afghan. He could speak [01:18:45] Farsi. We conversed in Farsi, took a medical history. I have one kidney now. [01:18:50] Why? I sold it to pay the smugglers to come over.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Solmaz Samae: And [01:18:55] you’re like, let that digest. And you’re like, you can’t think about it. You’ve got patients waiting [01:19:00] outside. Task at hand.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Solmaz Samae: Okay. Then [01:19:05] there was a Somalian lady who on the boat was coming over. I [01:19:10] didn’t see her. I heard about her. Four of her children [01:19:15] drowned while she was coming over on the boat.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. [01:19:20]

Solmaz Samae: Like, the stories were horrific. We went to. I [01:19:25] went to a place where they have the they keep the young, vulnerable [01:19:30] children. So those who have come over on their own, their parents [01:19:35] have passed away, or they’ve come over with a family member, but the family member cannot [01:19:40] show that they’re related. So it was a little homes, [01:19:45] sorry. It was a little house they had with not very [01:19:50] tight security, but a hidden location and some [01:19:55] of the kids again, Afghan. I could converse with them in Farsi and hearing their stories [01:20:00] like some their parents didn’t have enough funds to send [01:20:05] them over because to pay the smugglers at the minute, the fee is [01:20:10] €1,500 to pay to come over. [01:20:15] That’s how much they paid the smugglers. So they didn’t have the parents didn’t have enough money for [01:20:20] themselves, so they paid just to send the kids over.

Payman Langroudi: How old?

Payman Langroudi: Are you? Eight. [01:20:25]

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness. I mean, look, you’re [01:20:30] the stories you’ve told have all been the stories of how they got there.

Payman Langroudi: How they got.

Payman Langroudi: There, but [01:20:35] the why they got there question for me is even more interesting. I mean, [01:20:40] one of one of our family members works at the UN, and she was saying, sometimes in the refugee camps [01:20:45] you come across like a doctor and a lawyer whose kids [01:20:50] can’t read or write because they’ve been in war for the last 6 or 7 years. [01:20:55] And the guy’s a doctor, right? He’s he’s, you know, sometimes you’re guilty [01:21:00] of thinking refugees or refugees. There’s almost a status assigned [01:21:05] to them by themselves. Um. Did you what surprised [01:21:10] you? Like, did you come across anyone like that? Like.

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Solmaz Samae: Payman. [01:21:15] I’ve got some photos of the camp. What was those [01:21:20] stories? Yes. There was a gentleman who had his own private [01:21:25] plane that flew him somewhere. Well that’s [01:21:30] it. And then he was a thief. Beautiful. Beautiful [01:21:35] crowns, oral hygiene. Amazing gums. Beautiful. You [01:21:40] know.

Payman Langroudi: Stuck.

Payman Langroudi: In a refugee.

Payman Langroudi: Camp. And it’s. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well. And what [01:21:45] was the treatment mostly? Was it mostly extractions or.

Payman Langroudi: Was it.

Solmaz Samae: Mostly extractions? Extirpations. [01:21:50] I did a couple of, um, composite bondings [01:21:55] on ones and just purely for aesthetics, because why [01:22:00] not? Like, it’s their front teeth.

Payman Langroudi: And just.

Solmaz Samae: Because they’re stuck in a refugee camp, [01:22:05] they want to smile. I’ll make that time for you, darling. Not [01:22:10] a problem.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Solmaz Samae: Come.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a humanity in that.

Payman Langroudi: That’s it.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve [01:22:15] come to the end of our time.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve enjoyed.

Payman Langroudi: It. It’s gone so quick. Um, we normally [01:22:20] end on the same questions.

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy dinner party.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. Three guests. [01:22:25]

Solmaz Samae: I thought about this. I’d like for four guests.

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive?

Solmaz Samae: All alive. [01:22:30] My parents and my sisters.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Solmaz Samae: You [01:22:35] don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Understand. I know you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Close. I know you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Close. It’s not.

Solmaz Samae: That.

Payman Langroudi: I know your story, but.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:22:40] not a fantasy dinner. But that’s a that’s a dinner. That’s tonight.

Payman Langroudi: That is. That’s not tonight. Because they’re travelling [01:22:45] tonight.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the day after. That’s. That’s not a fantasy dinner.

Payman Langroudi: That’s who I’d like. Honestly, [01:22:50] I thought about why I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Not allowing.

Payman Langroudi: It.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not allowing [01:22:55] it because. Because you have that dinner every night. That’s not fantasy. Where’s the fantasy in that?

Solmaz Samae: Can [01:23:00] I have dinner with Kylie Jenner? I really want to learn how to speak like her.

Payman Langroudi: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: Who [01:23:05] else comes to mind off the top of your head?

Solmaz Samae: The [01:23:10] Dalai Lama.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:23:15] met the.

Solmaz Samae: Dalai.

Payman Langroudi: Lama before. I have. Oh, wow.

Solmaz Samae: And I love [01:23:20] his teachings. I really like his teachings. I try and follow it as much as I possibly [01:23:25] can. I would love to have dinner with the Dalai Lama.

Payman Langroudi: There you go.

Solmaz Samae: Yes. [01:23:30]

Payman Langroudi: Anyone else?

Solmaz Samae: Um. Anyone [01:23:35] else? I really thought I had [01:23:40] an answer with my parents and my siblings. I had that answer for you already. And [01:23:45] I.

Payman Langroudi: Had.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you know, you could be trying to be smart and say, oh, my, my younger self [01:23:50] or whatever.

Payman Langroudi: Or I would love to.

Solmaz Samae: Have dinner with Pharrell. Pharrell. [01:23:55]

Payman Langroudi: Pharrell.

Payman Langroudi: Pharrell.

Payman Langroudi: Empress Farah.

Solmaz Samae: Of Iran. [01:24:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Solmaz Samae: She inspires.

Payman Langroudi: Me. Yeah. She’s a.

Solmaz Samae: True lady. And I would [01:24:05] love to hear her stories. I would love to hear her stories with the Shah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Solmaz Samae: I [01:24:10] love her more than the Shah.

Payman Langroudi: I would.

Solmaz Samae: Love to have dinner with.

Payman Langroudi: Her.

Payman Langroudi: She seems like such, like a sweet, [01:24:15] basic.

Payman Langroudi: Person, a.

Payman Langroudi: Simple person.

Solmaz Samae: And she looks like she smokes. I’d like to vape.

Payman Langroudi: With her [01:24:20] over a coffee. You might want to wipe that.

Solmaz Samae: Bit.

Payman Langroudi: Out. But [01:24:25] she’s.

Solmaz Samae: Incredible.

Payman Langroudi: Final question. It’s the deathbed question. [01:24:30] Three pieces of advice on your deathbed for your friends and family.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:24:35] would they be?

Solmaz Samae: Um. Live with no regrets. In the sense that how you treat people. Don’t [01:24:40] say or do anything. That if, God forbid, [01:24:45] God forbid, that person was to die tomorrow, you’ll regret saying to them like [01:24:50] you don’t want to carry for selfish reasons. You don’t want to carry that for the rest of your [01:24:55] life. You’ll relive it time and time again. So [01:25:00] every time you open your mouth and you say something to someone, would you be happy if that was your [01:25:05] last words with them? So be careful what you say.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting.

Solmaz Samae: That’s [01:25:10] it. And do everything you want to do and enjoy it. People are going to judge [01:25:15] regardless, so you might as well have a great time. You want to go to that [01:25:20] beach club in Mykonos and dance on that table.

Payman Langroudi: Do it. You know. [01:25:25]

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got permission.

Payman Langroudi: There. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much. [01:25:30]

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:25:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:25:40] hosts, Payman Langroudi [01:25:45] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, [01:25:50] you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually [01:25:55] sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m [01:26:00] assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [01:26:05] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. [01:26:10] Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is mind movers [00:00:10] moving the conversation forward on mental health [00:00:15] and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:00:20] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Hi [00:00:25] everyone and welcome back to Mind Movers, a segment of the Dental Leaders podcast [00:00:30] where we open up conversations that matter on mental health, power dynamics, identity [00:00:35] and the wider world where we’re all navigating. Our guest today is someone [00:00:40] who I consider now a friend, and I love her very dearly, and she has helped thousands [00:00:45] of people recognise red flags, find their voice and understand their worth. [00:00:50] You probably know her as Lala. Let me explain. But behind the platform [00:00:55] is Lala. I’ll say that because she’s anonymized. You can go have a look at her Instagram. She’s a former [00:01:00] social worker, a best selling author and one of the most important voices online today when it comes [00:01:05] to love, abuse, power and patriarchy. Lala grew up facing challenges that shaped [00:01:10] her perspective early on. She then spent over a decade working in safeguarding, witnessing [00:01:15] firsthand the realities of domestic abuse, child protection, and the breakdowns in the system [00:01:20] meant to help that experience fuels everything that she shares today, and her mission is [00:01:25] to empower others through truth, boundaries and lived experience. And this is nothing [00:01:30] short of inspiring, so welcome Lala.

Lala: That was lovely. I need [00:01:35] everyone to introduce me like that before I enter any room now.

Rhona Eskander: I pretty much do. And it was [00:01:40] so funny because when she first came to me as a patient, she was like Rona. And [00:01:45] she hugged me and she was like, oh, I’ve got a little gift for you and handed it. And I was like, who? I was like, who is this person? [00:01:50] I’ve been following her for years. And then she gave me her book and I realised it was because she’s anonymous. [00:01:55] Yeah. And so Say. I think you get that a lot, right? When you’re like, high and people are like, [00:02:00] who are you?

Lala: Yeah. It’s really it’s, you know, one of my favourite things to do in life with [00:02:05] my anonymity is sometimes I’ve built lots of relationships with people over the years on [00:02:10] Instagram, and of course, I see their faces, but they haven’t got a clue who I am. So there’s been [00:02:15] a few occasions where I’ve spotted somebody in a restaurant or in the street, and I’ve gone [00:02:20] up to them and I’ve said, right, you have to be quiet, but I’m going to whisper in your ear [00:02:25] and they’re like, what the hell is going on? This stranger has just come up to me and said, I’m about [00:02:30] to whisper something in your ear, and you can see people being really like, like, freaked out. And then I’ll whisper in their [00:02:35] ear, I’m la la la. Let me explain. And then they’re just.

[ALL]: Like, oh my God. [00:02:40]

Lala: It’s so beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: Did you do it as a gimmick or. Because. Yeah. How does the name.

Rhona Eskander: Come.

Payman Langroudi: About for [00:02:45] for a reason.

Lala: The anonymity came about because I was still a social [00:02:50] worker when I started posting on Instagram, and actually there was no intention [00:02:55] of making anything out of this. This was before the days of real [00:03:00] influencers. Um, I just wanted to tell people [00:03:05] about my experiences, but I wanted to do that anonymously. I didn’t want [00:03:10] my face attached to that. And of course, I was still a social worker. So some of the stuff that [00:03:15] I wanted to put out would be quite conflicting with that role. Um, so I [00:03:20] just started a blog and that was all about my own. It was like sort of sex and the city style, [00:03:25] but more like, I don’t know, gritty. Yeah. Set in a Tottenham estate, [00:03:30] you know. Um, and so I was writing out these dating stories [00:03:35] and they went viral on WordPress, and then I created the Instagram off [00:03:40] the back of that to get people reading the blogs. And then it’s just sort of evolved from there. But I’ve kept my [00:03:45] anonymity for a number of reasons, really. Um, to protect my son. He’s [00:03:50] in secondary school now, and I do sometimes talk about sex and things [00:03:55] that could be used against a teenage boy. Or your mom spoke about blowjobs on [00:04:00] Instagram yesterday. I don’t want to put him through that and I just think it’s safer. I’ve [00:04:05] helped a lot of women to leave really dangerous men. Um, in [00:04:10] fact, a man went into, um, an estate agents the other day, bizarrely didn’t [00:04:15] know that the woman actually knew me or knew who I was. And he started ranting [00:04:20] about how la la la. Let me explain. Had made his wife leave him. Um, [00:04:25] so things like that. And she contacted me to say like this. I’ve [00:04:30] just had this really weird situation, but things like that are a constant reminder of, yeah, just keep your [00:04:35] anonymity, you know?

Rhona Eskander: Do you think it bothers people that you’re anonymous?

Lala: I [00:04:40] think it has swings and roundabouts. So I think that the negative stuff [00:04:45] that gets levelled at me is almost this idea that I’m not [00:04:50] fully owning what I say because I’m keeping a mask on and [00:04:55] that if I’m hiding behind anonymity, then I’m not really saying it with my chest or [00:05:00] or being authentic, I guess. But actually, I think the anonymity allows me [00:05:05] to be far more authentic. I can be free without the fear of judgement. [00:05:10] Um, but I think also a lot of people really appreciate the anonymity [00:05:15] because it doesn’t box me in. If you’re a muslim woman [00:05:20] who I don’t look anything like and and you, [00:05:25] you know, you don’t look at me and see me as necessarily your sister, that [00:05:30] might make you less inclined to take my advice. Whereas if I’m anonymous, [00:05:35] you can make me whoever you need me to be in your imagination, [00:05:40] you know? And I feel that sometimes if I’m looking at an advice page or somebody’s talking about something on Instagram, [00:05:45] I might look at the woman and think, I can’t relate. You’re probably not dating the same kind of men that [00:05:50] I’m dating. You’re probably in a different life phase to me, whereas the anonymity takes [00:05:55] away all of that and allows people to just hear the message.

Rhona Eskander: I absolutely love that. [00:06:00] And I totally agree, because I think that, you know, interestingly enough, like with my [00:06:05] social media, it was an expression of who I was. And for me, definitely like the glamorous, creative [00:06:10] part of me was always suppressed during dental school. And I loved social media because [00:06:15] it allowed me to express myself. But what I have come to realise is there’s so much judgement comes with that, you [00:06:20] know, especially for my colleagues, like less so from people because, you know, we met each other through social [00:06:25] media, but, you know, they’re like, can she be taken seriously? Does she look like a certain way? She’s [00:06:30] too glam. She’s too done up. She’s too this like judgements do come. So I actually think it’s really, really [00:06:35] smart in a way.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I think anonymity is such an important thing in general. [00:06:40] I mean, the idea that you get recognised in the street would do my head in completely, [00:06:45] completely. And yet I do like getting recognised at a dental event. [00:06:50] Yeah that does. And so I scratch the itch there. But out in the real like [00:06:55] the idea that I could be in Waitrose and someone knows me just do I do [00:07:00] not want anyone to know that I’m in Waitrose but you somehow kind of manage [00:07:05] manage or you actually like it even.

Rhona Eskander: Sometimes I do like it, but I think that’s just because of my own stuff. I think [00:07:10] that I recognise I’ve done enough work to know that I have issues with my self-esteem and my validation, and [00:07:15] it makes me feel seen, and it makes me feel like I’m worth something in a way. But I [00:07:20] think that is a lot what I’ve come to realise, especially treating these kinds of patients in my dental practice, [00:07:25] those that like to be in the public eye genuinely, I think, have self-esteem [00:07:30] issues and I think generally have validation issues, and especially those that want the validation for the way [00:07:35] they look on social media. And there’s nothing wrong with it, but I think it’s important to own it and recognise [00:07:40] when it can become a problem, you know, and I think it’s doing that work because you can’t undo it. But I think [00:07:45] the first step is taking ownership, you know?

Lala: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, when [00:07:50] you were just saying that, I realised that actually there is part of me that [00:07:55] does feel a sense of loss and not being able to have that public recognition. [00:08:00] I’ve been out with friends before who are well known, and lots of people are coming up [00:08:05] to them, and I’m sort of standing there going, I wish I could sort of say I’m [00:08:10] la la la la. You might know.

Rhona Eskander: Who I.

Lala: Am, you know, but I can’t. I just have to stand silently and [00:08:15] not receive the same praise that the other person is receiving. And I think there is nothing [00:08:20] wrong with wanting validation. And there’s I think it’s wonderful that people approach you [00:08:25] and tell you nice things. Um, but I also fear [00:08:30] that on the other side, for me, perhaps people wouldn’t be approaching me all the time and saying nice [00:08:35] things. Maybe it would be.

Rhona Eskander: No, I mean, listen, I think you have got you’re you’re a safety [00:08:40] net for people, right? So I think the like you said, you know, when you confide in people. [00:08:45] Part of the reassurance is them feeling like, well, I [00:08:50] feel safe because I don’t know what they look like, what they’re like. So I think I personally think like what you’ve done is amazing. [00:08:55] And I think it’s kudos and testament to you and for protecting your son, you know, because I think people forget [00:09:00] that. Right? They really we’ve had this conversation, the impact that they can have on their own children by [00:09:05] putting themselves out there. I do want to go a little bit back to your upbringing, [00:09:10] where you were from, what your own childhood was like, and how you essentially fell into [00:09:15] social work to begin with.

Lala: So I’m from a working class [00:09:20] background. I was born and raised in north London. Um, my dad was [00:09:25] a firefighter and my mum was a 999 call operator for the London Fire Brigade. [00:09:30] They met on a picket line in the 1970s when they were on, [00:09:35] when the fire brigade were on strike. Um, so the [00:09:40] beginning years, I had like a really quite solid childhood with two married [00:09:45] parents. And then when I was I mean, my dad was always very [00:09:50] difficult. He was always a difficult parent in that he had a lot of [00:09:55] expectations about how we looked, how we presented ourselves, the weight that we [00:10:00] maintained. And I think a lot of people would recognise that kind of pressure from their [00:10:05] their own parents. But I loved and idolised my dad, and there was something very cool about him being [00:10:10] a firefighter, you know, all the kids, if he’d ever picked me up from school, the kids would beg [00:10:15] him to give them fireman’s lifts so there’d be queues of little children ready to get on my dad’s [00:10:20] shoulders. And then when I was seven, he ran off [00:10:25] with my mum’s best friend and business partner. I say business partner, but they were making [00:10:30] cakes on the side. They had little business making cakes together, so she was like [00:10:35] an auntie to me and my sister. This woman actually lived in the house directly opposite, very [00:10:40] close to my mum.

Lala: And then it turned out my dad was having an affair with her. [00:10:45] So in one day, everything changed and my dad just moved over the road. [00:10:50] Wow. Yeah. Um, and it took me a [00:10:55] lot of years in therapy to realise that [00:11:00] that was such a pivotal moment for me, because it was the time that created a sense [00:11:05] that I couldn’t keep a man. I couldn’t even keep my own dad. [00:11:10] I wasn’t valuable or worthy enough to even keep that one man [00:11:15] in my life. I didn’t see it, as you know, from the adult context, or [00:11:20] that he’d left my mom, but but essentially, he abandoned us and he chose her over [00:11:25] us. And then we went through years of sort of really difficult relationship with my dad. [00:11:30] So my mom would drop us to, uh, to visit him for the [00:11:35] weekend. And I remember a really significant moment was that he opened the door one day. And he [00:11:40] looked me and my sister up and down and he said, look at the state of you. You look like absolute [00:11:45] tramps. I had all of these things planned this weekend. I can’t be seen in the streets [00:11:50] with people who look like you. So we stayed in that whole weekend. And so there was just [00:11:55] this constant sense throughout my childhood that I was too ugly.

Lala: I [00:12:00] wasn’t valuable or worthy enough to be even seen out in public, you know? [00:12:05] Um, so I became very attached [00:12:10] to male validation and male attention when I was 12 [00:12:15] or 13, probably a bit before that, I started developing these really massive boobs. [00:12:20] You know, they just appeared on my chest. And at the same time, even though I was a [00:12:25] very young teenager, visibly I didn’t look old in my face. [00:12:30] I would walk down the street on the way to school and have men shouting out of [00:12:35] vans that they wanted to suck my tits or fuck me or whatever, you know. And at [00:12:40] 12, when you think I’m really ugly, I’m really disgusting. [00:12:45] And then a disgusting old man shouts out of a window that actually he wants [00:12:50] to do something to you. Part of your brain sees that as validating, [00:12:55] sees that attention as meaning something that actually you are attractive, [00:13:00] you are sexy. And so then that had such [00:13:05] a huge impact on how I showed up in dating and love. You know, [00:13:10] from the age of 14 when I lost my virginity to a really [00:13:15] horrible boy who I now look back and realise also was an incredibly damaged [00:13:20] young man who’d had awful times at home. But he subjected [00:13:25] me to just really a very abusive relationship for several years [00:13:30] of my teenage life.

Lala: And, and again, that just carried through and carried [00:13:35] through. Um, and my first proper true boyfriend after [00:13:40] secondary school who I fell in love with, who was a lovely man, actually, and [00:13:45] who gave me who he would worship like my from my toenail to [00:13:50] my eyebrows, you know, everything was beautiful. And he was really, um, [00:13:55] like, quite an antidote. But, um, his life very [00:14:00] quickly fell apart, and he became addicted to crack cocaine and ended [00:14:05] up in prison for attempted murder. Not of me. Um, he got [00:14:10] involved in in drugs and drug dealing and all sorts of stuff. [00:14:15] Um, and I was very involved in the whole court case [00:14:20] and things like that. And it was when he got sentenced to 13 [00:14:25] years in prison, which was like a grief to me. But I contacted [00:14:30] the Prisoners families helpline, um, and they were just wonderful. [00:14:35] And then I started volunteering for them. Um, and at the same time, [00:14:40] I started doing a counselling course and I started doing teaching sexual health. [00:14:45] And just all these things came together as a result of his incarceration. [00:14:50] And then my need to help other people who were going through similar [00:14:55] things to me. And then it was just, you know, a road from there, right into [00:15:00] child protection and and where I am now, I guess.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing. I mean, like, [00:15:05] wow. Like just such a deeply colourful past, you know, I [00:15:10] can’t I actually didn’t know that. And I didn’t know how much you’ve been through. Do you forgive your dad?

Lala: You [00:15:15] know, my the situation with my dad is complex, [00:15:20] so I actually love him. And I will never stop loving him. I [00:15:25] don’t idolise him anymore. And that was really the key in, um, [00:15:30] in a mind shift for me, also [00:15:35] understanding who he is and how he got to the place [00:15:40] that he was at. I think when you can see your parents in the context of how they [00:15:45] were parented, you know, when I look at my dad and the experiences [00:15:50] that he went through, he went through a much worse childhood than me. He watched [00:15:55] his dad severely beat his own mother up. So [00:16:00] there was lots of stuff going on for my dad. So when I was able to look at my dad as a little lost [00:16:05] child, that helped to heal a lot within me. Um, [00:16:10] but I did stop speaking to him for a couple of years up until last year, [00:16:15] because I realised that we were just repeating patterns, and it was this weird thing where [00:16:20] I’d done all this therapy and all of this healing. But still, if my dad was coming over to my [00:16:25] house, I’d be like a maniac, sort of trying to tidy up, make everything [00:16:30] neat and instilling that in my son as well. Like granddad’s coming over. Your nails [00:16:35] look dirty. Cut this, you know, sort your hair out. But I’m doing the same to him [00:16:40] as I was, as my dad did to me. This pressure of you’re not good enough.

Lala: You must look perfect. [00:16:45] You must be perfect. And I’m like, what the fuck am I doing to my own? I’m literally [00:16:50] repeating. And then every time we’d spend time with my dad, things would end up in an argument. [00:16:55] And my dad is the most argumentative. He always thinks he’s right about everything. [00:17:00] And then it just got to the point where I was like, I just can’t do this. I’ve been repeating this for 40 years. [00:17:05] I just I’m done with it. What is the point in striving to have a relationship with this man? [00:17:10] Blocked him. And then last year, he nearly died. Um, he’s [00:17:15] an alcoholic now. He wasn’t before, and he basically drank [00:17:20] himself to the point of extremely near death. My sister [00:17:25] and I had to break into his house, virtually drag him out. He had, [00:17:30] I think, 18 blood transfusions when we got him to ICU. They were like, [00:17:35] he’s he’s if another hour he would have been gone. So [00:17:40] then I was like, there every single day looking after this man who previously two years I hadn’t spoken to him, [00:17:45] I hated him. And then the realisation that he might die sort [00:17:50] of changed a lot for me. So I’m involved with him again now and I [00:17:55] see him regularly, but I have to constantly do the work and remind [00:18:00] myself that his views or what he says isn’t me. It’s [00:18:05] nothing to do with me. It is all him.

Rhona Eskander: I think it’s really hard though, with parents. I mean, I’ve actually [00:18:10] because I’ve never really asked you, but I feel like the everything starts with parenting and that parental [00:18:15] viewpoint, like I have a mother wound. So I would say I do idolise my dad and I still [00:18:20] idolise my dad. More is to do with my mother and my mum’s amazing. [00:18:25] And you know, I have to keep bringing myself back to. Like you said, she did the best [00:18:30] that she could with the tools that she had. She comes from a deeply like generational trauma, being [00:18:35] Middle Eastern Lebanese, then abusive, narcissistic mother. So [00:18:40] she did the best that she could, right? But it’s still I get the same where like, I don’t see her and I’m like, oh, [00:18:45] it’s all fine. And then I spend time with her and I’m so triggered. I’m so triggered, and everything goes out the window, [00:18:50] the healing, the work, and you can’t even bring yourself out of it. I think it’s [00:18:55] hard because parents do really shape us, and I think that [00:19:00] a lot of people that are on this journey of like self-love have to recognise that. [00:19:05] You have to look at your parents, and if you are willing to make change [00:19:10] or want to make change, you have to break their patterns as well. And I think there’s really I’m not into like severing [00:19:15] relationships, but I’m into boundaries. I think boundaries are important and they make make you feel guilty [00:19:20] about it. But I think it’s really important. Do you do you feel like your parents still impact [00:19:25] you?

Payman Langroudi: Just the notion with either of you resonate of loving someone but not liking them.

Lala: Oh [00:19:30] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Especially with family.

Lala: Yeah. What does that mean to you?

Payman Langroudi: I [00:19:35] think of one person like that, you know, in your family. Yeah, in my extended family. And [00:19:40] and it’s it’s. I feel so conflicted about it.

Rhona Eskander: Why?

Payman Langroudi: Because, you know, how [00:19:45] can you love someone that you don’t like? So it’s a weird thing.

Lala: I felt, but I think [00:19:50] often parents feel a bit like that in brief moments. You know, when you’re when [00:19:55] my. I’ve had, you know, when you’re when you’re. I mean, it’s not it’s a fleeting feeling. [00:20:00] Um, but but actually, I think it’s, you know, it’s very possible to have that feeling like I love you so [00:20:05] deeply, but right now, you’re being a real prick. Yeah. You know.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:20:10] also what you just said about generational trauma and and healing that. And both of you [00:20:15] talked about, you know, doing the work. I mean, maybe the first time in, [00:20:20] like, in humanity where the man in the street. The [00:20:25] girl in the street is going to go and have a therapist and work through this stuff, and actually [00:20:30] have a possibility of breaking that, you know. Because, because because you say your grandmother. But [00:20:35] it could have been your grandmother’s grandmother that started 100%. And it just goes on. Right.

Rhona Eskander: But, you know, the DNA [00:20:40] for a woman starts, doesn’t it, in your great grandmother’s womb. Do you know about this? So I had a menopause expert [00:20:45] on here, and she was saying that something like the eggs that we as women as well like [00:20:50] it actually we carry. This is where epigenetics comes in and [00:20:55] it is actually carried.

Payman Langroudi: We carry it.

Rhona Eskander: We carry it. And the thing is, with people that have been [00:21:00] through certain things, if they’re from certain heritage, you know, if they come from like Jewish heritage, Middle [00:21:05] Eastern heritage, they actually carry generational trauma. Women also carry it more than [00:21:10] men because of what women have been through, collectively not taking that away from them. But it’s proven. [00:21:15] So I think that that is something that’s really important to work through. And I [00:21:20] think that’s important because also our parents would have carried that. Like if your parents have that [00:21:25] kind of hard working mentality or the way that you look, etc., that comes from somewhere and I think, [00:21:30] look, you can’t break it. Lala and I just discussed that, you know, before you got anything like [00:21:35] but you can have awareness and I think that’s the important thing and just be like, okay, I can take a deep breath. I think it’s [00:21:40] it’s really hard to completely change really, really hard unless you completely change your identity. [00:21:45] And I think being triggered is part of being human, but it’s about changing the way that [00:21:50] you react and respond to things. That’s my view.

Payman Langroudi: Did you talk to your mum about?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How was [00:21:55] your mum? Their relationship. And I mean, you know, you say you felt abandoned, [00:22:00] but what about just now that you’re an adult? Did you sort of discuss that with your.

Lala: Well, I again, [00:22:05] another thing that I realised in therapy was that I really resented my [00:22:10] mum. I blamed her for not being able to keep my dad, and [00:22:15] it made me see my mum as incredibly ugly and [00:22:20] embarrassing. You know, I was mortified just by her presence. And I know that’s pretty normal for teenagers, [00:22:25] to be fair. Like, you can be the coolest person. They’re just like, oh, God, why are [00:22:30] you talking to me in public? Um, but I really felt like almost. [00:22:35] She was a representation of me, and she was hideous. And my [00:22:40] mom’s beautiful, actually. Really beautiful woman. But I just [00:22:45] really resented her. And also, there were some abandonment things with her [00:22:50] because inevitably, I mean, my dad left. He wasn’t giving her any money, so she [00:22:55] then had to work three jobs. One of them was shift work because she was doing 909 calls. [00:23:00] So then we’d have young people, babysitters, au [00:23:05] pairs, whatever. Um, and again, when you’re a child, [00:23:10] you don’t interpret that as your mom just needing to make ends meet. You interpret that as well. [00:23:15] My mom’s never here. And then what? That enabled me to do at 14 was [00:23:20] just run wild. And I really did run wild. I would take her [00:23:25] car in the middle of the night and drive to Elephant and Castle. Mcdonald’s never had a driving lesson in [00:23:30] my life. I mean, it’s a wonder that I survived it all. Um, but [00:23:35] I really it was a very complicated thing with my mum. Um, [00:23:40] but there’s something very healing in, in getting older and realising, seeing [00:23:45] her as a woman and realising that her experiences with men and in the world [00:23:50] are so similar to so many of us, including me.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. So [00:23:55] when you started the social work, how are you finding it? How were you [00:24:00] navigating that world? Do you feel this was a real calling? So you had obviously gone on this journey to [00:24:05] acquire the ability to help these people. How was it for you then, [00:24:10] this kind of actually being in the working world with these people?

Lala: Well, I started off, [00:24:15] um, my journey to social work, actually wanting to work with adults, I [00:24:20] wanted to well, I had this weird kind of special, not weird, but I had this real [00:24:25] interest in HIV and people in prison. My dissertation was [00:24:30] on the psychosocial needs of female prisoners living with HIV and Aids. Hiv [00:24:35] wasn’t in the place that it is now. People were still dying from HIV and Aids. [00:24:40] That it wasn’t you equals you. Medication wasn’t available in [00:24:45] the same way. Um, but then throughout, at the same time, I was teaching for the NHS, [00:24:50] um, doing sex, sexual health and relationship education in schools and settings [00:24:55] for young people. And I kept getting disclosures. So [00:25:00] we would be teaching young people to put condoms on or giving them these lessons. And then young people [00:25:05] would take me to one side at the end and they would tell me something horrific. Um, [00:25:10] and I remember always feeling like, I want to deal with this. I don’t want to [00:25:15] write this down and send this to someone else and get them to do it. I want to hold your hand through this. I want to investigate this. [00:25:20] And so that’s what led me to change from adult social work to children’s [00:25:25] social work. I wanted to get into child protection. I was really motivated. Um, [00:25:30] and I think once you’re in there, it’s really difficult because you go in [00:25:35] with this idea that you are going to make people’s lives better, that you’re going to seek justice [00:25:40] for vulnerable people, that you’re going to be a mouthpiece for people [00:25:45] who need you.

Lala: But actually then you get entrenched in this bureaucratic system [00:25:50] that isn’t fit for purpose, and that actually [00:25:55] revictimize a lot of victims and can create a lot of extra trauma. [00:26:00] So while you’re in there with the right intentions, quite often, [00:26:05] I mean, social workers do incredible work and it is so difficult and [00:26:10] so underpaid. But often you go in there with the best intentions [00:26:15] and you just can’t carry out what you want to do. You have [00:26:20] to walk away from cases where you know something has happened, but the system [00:26:25] has tied your hands. You have to go into homes and take [00:26:30] babies off mothers because that mum will just not leave. The man who is abusing [00:26:35] her. And even though we know all this stuff about abuse, we [00:26:40] are still going in there and saying, I’m sorry if you can’t leave him, your [00:26:45] babies are unsafe. We have to take them. So whilst I loved being a social [00:26:50] worker, there were so many things that made me feel uncomfortable [00:26:55] with the way the system enacts the protection and [00:27:00] whether I was actually doing care or control. A lot [00:27:05] of the time.

Rhona Eskander: Was that quite early on in your career then, or do you think that developed later? [00:27:10]

Lala: Right from day one, I remember. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. Go ahead. I remember going in. [00:27:15] I think it was one of my first few weeks, and I was on duty, and this family turned [00:27:20] up downstairs, and I can’t really remember what had happened. Something [00:27:25] went wrong with their housing. I’m not sure if they’ve been kicked out by the landlord or what [00:27:30] it was, but it was a mother with two really young kids, completely homeless, no family [00:27:35] support system. And she turned up downstairs, um, and I’d [00:27:40] gone down as the duty social worker. And having just studied, [00:27:45] I knew the laws. I knew what was available. I went back up to my duty manager and I [00:27:50] said, you know, two homeless children downstairs. What can we do to help? And my managers were [00:27:55] like, we’ll just tell them to fuck off, tell them to go to their mum’s house to haven’t they got a grandma? And what [00:28:00] about the aunties? And I was like, what? But, but but what about this [00:28:05] section of the law? Um. And they laughed at me when I pointed out I went [00:28:10] off, got out. The Children Act found the part of the Children Act that said we had to do this, bought it to my manager [00:28:15] and they just laughed and they were like, she’s very green, isn’t she? You won’t be this green for very long. And they [00:28:20] were right. And then I found myself towards the end of my career being a bit like that. [00:28:25] I, you know, at the end of a long day, someone would turn up and I think, oh, well, they can fuck off. And [00:28:30] I’d have to catch myself and think. You have now become entrenched in the system. What are you doing [00:28:35] here? Are you representing the system or are you representing the people that you came in?

Payman Langroudi: This resonates [00:28:40] with all of healthcare, right?

Lala: Does it?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. Nurses.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Social [00:28:45] workers. Yeah, even NHS doctors. That whole system runs on the goodwill of [00:28:50] the humans. Yeah, yeah. Because it’s so underfunded that if the humans don’t have goodwill, the [00:28:55] whole system will fall apart. Yeah. And then those humans get jaded. Oh, yeah. In the end, [00:29:00] those humans get jaded. If you were going to redesign it. I mean, it’s a funny thing. Why should social [00:29:05] workers not get paid? Well?

Lala: Well, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: A weird thing why.

Lala: It’s so weird. And [00:29:10] I was thinking about this the other day about how the whole public sector is so devalued, and we [00:29:15] really need to do something about it. It’s. My son was talking about how he’d like to become a firefighter [00:29:20] when he leaves school, and actually, that is something you should be so proud of. What a wonderful thing [00:29:25] to do. But my first thought was, well, they start on about £37,000 [00:29:30] a year and and you’re going to risk your life. You’re [00:29:35] going to give everything that you have and potentially lose your life for [00:29:40] £37,000 a year. And it’s the same with doctors. Of course, doctors earn more, [00:29:45] but not that much more. Um, you know, if you’re a paediatric doctor [00:29:50] in an A&E department, you’re probably earning less than me. And you shouldn’t be. You [00:29:55] shouldn’t be. And I mean me as an influencer, not [00:30:00] me as a social worker. We have to start valuing those people [00:30:05] we have to make sure that firefighters, teachers, social workers, nurses, [00:30:10] dentists, doctors, dental nurses, teachers are valued monetarily. [00:30:15]

Payman Langroudi: Back home in Iran, teacher university teachers like maybe one of the top jobs in the [00:30:20] country.

Lala: In terms of financial rewards.

Payman Langroudi: As well. They get, they earn because they go [00:30:25] around universities giving lectures, whereas here it’s just just a bit.

Rhona Eskander: But but this is the crazy [00:30:30] thing. So like, sorry, I was so like I was like dying to like kind of interject because I’m so passionate about it. I had [00:30:35] a lot of scrutiny when I left the NHS. I worked on it for ten years. I had to go. I [00:30:40] got invited on the Piers Morgan Show a few years ago because they wanted to talk about the Dental crisis. As we know, [00:30:45] it’s absolutely awful. People don’t have access to a dentist. They’re taking out their own teeth. Children [00:30:50] now cannot get access to a dentist. And it’s becoming absolutely horrific because they have abscesses, [00:30:55] which can become life threatening. You know all about this. And the problem is, is they keep blaming the healthcare [00:31:00] professionals and they don’t understand about the system, because when I qualified I was on £8.75 a [00:31:05] UDA. So that was about what, 15 years ago? Um, so my first year, like you were saying, I was making like 27 [00:31:10] K something like that, working on the NHS. That was my year. And obviously it went up a little bit, but [00:31:15] not really a lot. And then I was like told it’s all about targets. You have to hit this amount of targets or you’re going to lose your job. [00:31:20] You have to do this. You have to work this quickly. So what the system taught me was to be fast, not good. [00:31:25] So being fast means that you don’t necessarily treat patients that well. And so for me, it wasn’t necessarily [00:31:30] about me not valuing the NHS. It was because I couldn’t value myself. I couldn’t [00:31:35] value the work. I was not allowed to use certain materials. I was not allowed to see patients for this [00:31:40] amount of time. So the transition for me, like I stayed in it for a long time, ten years compared to a lot of dentists these days. [00:31:45]

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t go into it.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, but a lot of dentists these days, like I felt really private. Yeah he did. [00:31:50] Yeah. But I felt guilty because I was like, I, I’ve like been, you know, this education has been [00:31:55] paid for like I owe the system, I owe the government. So I had this like sense of guilt. And even when I went [00:32:00] private, I was still doing 50% NHS work, so I was doing 50. It wasn’t until I bought [00:32:05] Chelsea, which was like five years ago, that I went completely private. I was still doing a bit of NHS [00:32:10] work and I just think like when you see these TikToks and Instagrams with doctors in [00:32:15] America, for example, which is a very broken system on the other way, and you’re like, bloody hell. Like, like [00:32:20] there was a there was a paediatric doctor that compared her UK salary to [00:32:25] an American one. Now, I’m not saying we need to go that far, but like you need a happy medium. And also [00:32:30] I think you need people to start valuing the systems. So for example, some [00:32:35] places in Europe like Germany, Sweden, people pay a tiny bit into like [00:32:40] a pot essentially from when they’re young. And then that all accumulates. So people have access, but [00:32:45] they’re not used to something that’s completely free. You may say, Rhona, like you’re wrong. People should have [00:32:50] access to completely free, but I cannot see any other way because also, I think the value side of [00:32:55] it has to come also from the people that need it and understand as well. Like my health is important [00:33:00] from a young age. And I’m not talking about like a lot like £3 a month or something.

Payman Langroudi: Can I be controversial?

Rhona Eskander: Go on.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:33:05] think politicians should earn more.

Lala: No I agree.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [00:33:10] Oh, that’s so good. I mean, the idea that you earn more than [00:33:15] the Prime Minister is ridiculous. Like that blows my mind. The [00:33:20] Prime Minister should earn more than Rhona Eskander. Let’s face it.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, fine. But I want to know. I want to know [00:33:25] why, but.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. I mean, this is a bit strange that they earn so little that they [00:33:30] have to be corrupt to pay for their lives. Do you think? Although. Although [00:33:35] I’m sure in countries where they earn more, they’re still corrupt. Yeah, but to get. If you’re one of 600 [00:33:40] MPs in the country, you should be earning more than every single doctor. Like, what’s that about? [00:33:45] You know, that’s a very important job to represent that constituency and [00:33:50] do everything that they do. And what should they have? The kindness of their heart. They should they should [00:33:55] at least be able to put their kids in school, go on a couple of holidays. These can’t do that on 60 [00:34:00] grand or whatever it is they earn, right?

Rhona Eskander: What do you think?

Lala: I agree, and also because I think our MPs should have [00:34:05] a range of valuable skills, I would really like an MP, [00:34:10] the cabinet member for education, to have been a head teacher. You’re not [00:34:15] going to want to go from head teaching job to an MPs job, which is double the [00:34:20] amount of time you’re going to have to work for. Very much the same.

Payman Langroudi: If you’re a super brain. Yeah. [00:34:25] You know, you’ve got you could go to the city and earn half £1 million, or you could become an MP and earn [00:34:30] 60. Well, you want the super brains to do these jobs.

Lala: I completely agree. I think [00:34:35] all of these things, any public sector role I think should be [00:34:40] valued much more highly because then you get good people in those roles. And that’s [00:34:45] not to say that the people in them at the moment aren’t good. A lot of these roles are a vocation. [00:34:50] I, I say being a dentist, social worker, MP, all of those [00:34:55] things, you probably have to be a certain type of person that is very much called to [00:35:00] want to do that, and people should be remunerated remunerated fairly for [00:35:05] for that.

Rhona Eskander: So what do you think? Going back to the point, I’d love to know your view on this. The healthcare [00:35:10] system as in the NHS versus private versus other countries [00:35:15] who have different models, you know, where it seems to work better. And I’m not talking about extreme [00:35:20] in America, where you’ll die if you don’t have money. Do you think that there should be? [00:35:25] I don’t see like so much funding goes into the NHS, right? So what is the answer? Does [00:35:30] that make.

Payman Langroudi: Sense than ever?

Lala: Yeah, I believe in a welfare state. I think reforms, [00:35:35] plans, although they’re not being open and explicit about it. But [00:35:40] Farage has certainly made multiple comments in private that [00:35:45] have been recorded. And I think that they and the Tories [00:35:50] too. I mean, they’ve privatised everything in this country. Look at what’s happened to the privatisation of our water. [00:35:55] There are people earning billions from owning our water [00:36:00] and it is now full of sewage. You can’t drink tap water in the UK safely [00:36:05] anymore. Us privatisation doesn’t [00:36:10] make things better or more smooth. It just creates [00:36:15] a hierarchy of of where the wealth goes.

Payman Langroudi: If it were a zero sum game [00:36:20] and we’re saying this group should earn more, who should earn less?

Lala: Footballers. [00:36:25]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Agreed. 100%. 100%. Yeah. What do you mean, [00:36:30] millions? For what? Kicking around a ball.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry, footballers.

Rhona Eskander: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:36:35] but they don’t count. I mean, if you take all the pay of all the footballers, put it all together, they’re not going to pay for anything. Are [00:36:40] you joking? There’s so few of them that you know.

Lala: But we should be taxing the people at [00:36:45] the top.

Payman Langroudi: But then they’ll all run away, right? Everyone. Everyone we know.

Lala: Everybody.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone we know is moving to Dubai. [00:36:50]

Lala: You say.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone. My business partner is moving to Dubai. Like there’s loads of people moving to Dubai.

Lala: But then moved to Dubai [00:36:55] I think.

Payman Langroudi: But but then. But then the nice restaurant in Saint John’s Wood will stop [00:37:00] working because those people won’t be eating there. You know, there’s, there’s, there are sort of second [00:37:05] order. Second order.

Lala: Um, everyone is if you look at the percentage of the people that are [00:37:10] leaving the UK every year, somebody said this to me yesterday, everyone’s leaving. Well, not [00:37:15] everyone’s going to leave, but.

Payman Langroudi: And then there are people leaving. A [00:37:20] lot of rich people leaving.

Lala: It will create more room then for other people to open [00:37:25] up those areas or have access to that wealth that those people [00:37:30] that will create, you know, if you leave that restaurant in Saint John’s Wood and you pack up with somebody else, [00:37:35] we’ll open a restaurant and make more money. I really think that the, [00:37:40] the it has to be the people at the top and and what I hate that attitude. [00:37:45] Oh, you want me to pay more tax? Well I’m leaving. Piss off. There’s people [00:37:50] on the floor, who have to choose between whether they can eat or their own [00:37:55] child.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re talking about raising revenue. I mean, it’s like a financial discussion. [00:38:00] I mean, I’m with you. I feel left wing overall. Yeah. But it’s the financial discussion. [00:38:05] Like if you raise tax at this amount, you’ll actually get less tax. And so, you know there isn’t [00:38:10] an easy answer but okay footballers who else. Estate agent types. Those types. [00:38:15]

Lala: I just want us to make some enemies now.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a very [00:38:20] interesting point though. The estate agent gets a percentage of the price of the property. So to for doing [00:38:25] the same job today, he’s getting ten times what the guy was getting 15 years [00:38:30] ago because property prices have gone through the roof. You know what I mean? But he’s doing the same thing. He’s selling this house. [00:38:35]

Rhona Eskander: Listen, I don’t know because I don’t know enough to comment. That’s what I’m going to say because I don’t know enough [00:38:40] about politics. Maybe Lala does, but I do know that what they’re doing [00:38:45] at the moment isn’t working, because it feels like you said that Entrepreneurs [00:38:50] are not inspired enough. And if you think about small businesses, for example, even you and I like we [00:38:55] have employees. I have 27 employees. The majority are immigrants, right? [00:39:00] And they are making it impossible for me to sustain a business because they’ve increased National Insurance. Like [00:39:05] I think that like we need to incentivise the small businesses. That’s what I think everything.

Payman Langroudi: We’re saying [00:39:10] is money. We’re saying pay the teachers more, pay the doctors more, pay the nurses. But it’s like, for.

Rhona Eskander: Example, [00:39:15] if you are helping.

Payman Langroudi: People tax you less. So this is all cash. So where are we going to get this cash from? [00:39:20]

Rhona Eskander: I hear you, I hear you.

Lala: We were doing all right. Yeah, we were doing all right not [00:39:25] that long ago. True. I remember being a social worker under Tony [00:39:30] Blair’s Labour government. And then the shift that happened [00:39:35] was stark under me. Yeah. [00:39:40] And it really I remember when I started, we had so many resources. If you had [00:39:45] a teenager who was pregnant, we had a teenage pregnancy team. If you had a parent [00:39:50] who was on drugs who happened to be a traveller, we had a travellers team. We had everything, [00:39:55] and it meant that we were really able to work well with families [00:40:00] based on their specific needs. We had resources. If somebody came and. [00:40:05]

Payman Langroudi: But I think the country was richer at that point, you know, you know, it’s cyclical.

Lala: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And we [00:40:10] were in that cycle where there was some money, you know, in the mix. But you’re right. Blair was a genius, right? Tough. [00:40:15] Tough on crime. Tough on the causes of crime.

Lala: I mean, he, you know, he was. [00:40:20]

Rhona Eskander: A warmonger. Yeah.

Lala: We can’t we can’t forget that part. But in terms of what he did for [00:40:25] public sector, it was it felt like the country was being run [00:40:30] really well. And then the Tories came in. And really, it wasn’t very long before [00:40:35] we were at a point where there were no pens, there was no ink in the printer. We couldn’t [00:40:40] give anything to families. We were struggling.

Payman Langroudi: Or are you not old enough.

Lala: Maggie Thatcher, [00:40:45] milk snatcher. So that’s what I remember is that she took our [00:40:50] milk away when we were in primary school.

Payman Langroudi: The picket line that your parents met on. [00:40:55] Yeah. Could well have been 1978 ish.

Lala: It would.

Payman Langroudi: Have been. That’s the year [00:41:00] I got to Britain running away. And Britain was terrible in 1970. I [00:41:05] mean.

Rhona Eskander: My dad.

Payman Langroudi: Says there was a general strike. That’s why they were on strike. Yeah. Everyone was on strike. [00:41:10] Yeah. And interestingly, the the the guys who dig the ground to put the [00:41:15] dead and the grave diggers were on strike. There was rubbish. Men were on strike. Everyone. [00:41:20] The country was definitely not working. Although in the cycle also [00:41:25] there was no money because there was an oil price had gone through the roof. So it’s a funny thing, [00:41:30] you know, like society in that we all seem to know what’s wrong with it, but none of us know how [00:41:35] to really put it.

Rhona Eskander: I don’t I also look again like and I don’t want to be controversial, and maybe it’s because of my poor experience. [00:41:40] I also don’t think necessarily that communism is the answer. I went to Cuba, [00:41:45] and I found it one of the most depressing places I’ve ever been to in my life. And it was really interesting. [00:41:50] The people were depressed, the people that lived there were depressed, and you’d want to go to a restaurant and [00:41:55] all the food was crap and you’d say like, oh, wouldn’t you? Well, they’re not motivated. Why would the guy next [00:42:00] door make it good? You know, like I do think a little bit of competition and human behaviour is normal and natural. [00:42:05] Um, so I don’t like seeing that in practice. I like God, I can’t wait to get home. You know, the doctors [00:42:10] were depressed because I had to go. You know, we had to take my mom for an emergency. Then she fell over. It was just [00:42:15] a generally, like, depressive mood. Uh, I don’t think I’ve been to a communist country. I was [00:42:20] like, this works, and everyone’s really, really happy. So. But then obviously there are so many flaws with capitalism [00:42:25] as well. Do you know what I mean? So, like, I don’t really know what the answer is, to be honest. So let’s [00:42:30] leave the politics behind because I want to move back, to move back to something.

Payman Langroudi: To safeguarding [00:42:35] from the dentist’s perspective. Well, I want.

Rhona Eskander: To I want to talk as well because so obviously you’re doing the social work and like, [00:42:40] what I have to say is since I was about ten years old, I remember so vividly [00:42:45] social workers being taken apart and blamed for anything that went [00:42:50] wrong. So Victoria, Baby pea, all of those stories, it’s [00:42:55] always the social worker. That’s the one that they blame immediately. Why do you think that [00:43:00] is? But also importantly, what do you think went wrong for those cases to get missed? Of course we [00:43:05] know it’s not happening all the time. It’s happening all the time. But we know that social workers [00:43:10] are really good at doing their job. But what’s your views on it?

Lala: It’s interesting [00:43:15] how social workers are so demonised. [00:43:20] You would really think that people whose jobs are every single [00:43:25] day trying to make the lives of vulnerable people better, you [00:43:30] would think that it would be an applauded profession, but it’s not. [00:43:35] It’s actually the opposite of that. Social workers are very much damned if you do and damned [00:43:40] if you don’t. Because in cases where we remove children, there’s always going [00:43:45] to be a backlash. We’ve we’ve not we’ve missed something or we shouldn’t [00:43:50] have done that or we’re being evil or controlling. And then in cases where we haven’t removed [00:43:55] children and unfortunately or very tragically, something happens to that child, [00:44:00] then it’s why didn’t you remove. You should have removed sooner. And it’s [00:44:05] all very well pointing the blame at social workers. And sometimes [00:44:10] social workers are to blame. But actually, I think that’s quite rare. It’s [00:44:15] the system that is to blame. Often if [00:44:20] you are a if you are a social worker, I can only speak for London boroughs, [00:44:25] but largely at the moment you will probably have upwards of [00:44:30] 50 children on your caseload, 50 children, all [00:44:35] at different stages or Or there for different [00:44:40] reasons. And you might have a week to get out to see all of those [00:44:45] children. Now you’re going to look at that caseload of 50 and you’re going to see, okay, one was a [00:44:50] teenager who’s self-harmed, the other one is a baby with a fracture.

Lala: You [00:44:55] are not you don’t have the capacity to give [00:45:00] the same amount of attention to the teenager who is self-harmed as you are going to to the baby [00:45:05] with a fracture. So already you’re in a really difficult position because you’re having to prioritise [00:45:10] who needs me most. And sometimes who needs you most. Isn’t that obvious? It’s [00:45:15] not always fractures and burns and bruises. Sometimes it’s much more subtle. [00:45:20] And if and this is no excuse for missing child abuse. [00:45:25] But if you have 50 cases and you’re running from one to the next, [00:45:30] it can be really easy to miss things. And it can also be [00:45:35] very What’s the right word? You can be very easily [00:45:40] manipulated by the parents, by [00:45:45] other professionals, um, and by your own managers [00:45:50] sometimes. So sometimes you even sort of gaslight yourself where you [00:45:55] might think, oh, this, this. I’m not sure about this one. I’ve. My gut is telling me [00:46:00] these kids need to go, but then you’re made to feel that you’re being [00:46:05] over the top. Or do you really feel like this because, you know, the budget’s a bit tight this month, and we don’t [00:46:10] think that this person’s going to agree to a foster carer. So have you really thought about it? [00:46:15] So I think social workers are often just in a really impossible position. [00:46:20]

Payman Langroudi: If you get that wrong, some child might die. You know, we make mistakes all the time, [00:46:25] right? We make a mistake of feeling might fall out. It’s a total nightmare.

Lala: Oh no. But there is [00:46:30] a case with a. I don’t know if you’re aware of the case of baby L, [00:46:35] who was a five week old baby who was [00:46:40] murdered, brutally murdered by his father. The [00:46:45] mum, when she was pregnant, had aroused [00:46:50] suspicions of the authorities because she kept presenting [00:46:55] at hospital with a variety of injuries, but her explanations [00:47:00] for those injuries stood up to scrutiny. You know, they didn’t arouse any suspicions [00:47:05] in the doctors and nurses who saw her, but there was a [00:47:10] number of of of injuries that she had sustained. What happened [00:47:15] was social services and health visitor, I believe, went out [00:47:20] because some concerns had been raised by other professionals about her care of [00:47:25] the baby and the baby’s sibling, and there were suspicions that [00:47:30] there was domestic abuse in the household. Social worker and health visitor. [00:47:35] Went out, saw the baby, said everything was fine. Mum consistently [00:47:40] denied domestic abuse so they left the following day. Baby [00:47:45] Elle was murdered. He had a split [00:47:50] liver. He had head injuries consistent with being shaken, [00:47:55] covered in bruising. That case went to court. [00:48:00] And what came out of that was that the only person [00:48:05] that the mum had been truthful with about the domestic abuse was her dentist. She had a temporary [00:48:10] denture in because he’d knocked out two of her teeth. She also had significant, [00:48:15] um, marks around her neck because he very regularly strangled [00:48:20] her. And she had spoken to the dentist about this on a number of occasions, [00:48:25] and the dentist never recorded it or never took it any further. [00:48:30] When She and her partner were arrested, she told the police [00:48:35] and social workers that she had disclosed to the dentist. The dentist [00:48:40] was then called up as a significant witness at the trial, and in the [00:48:45] case review, it was concluded that had the dentist shared the information. [00:48:50] Baby L’s murder would have been prevented.

Payman Langroudi: That’s so.

Rhona Eskander: Cool. [00:48:55] Do you know what? It’s. It’s so funny.

Payman Langroudi: Why didn’t we know that?

Rhona Eskander: I don’t know why. I’m gonna. I’m gonna. Look, I’m [00:49:00] surprised.

Lala: That that’s not in Dental. That should be every dentist.

Rhona Eskander: Interesting. Every year I have [00:49:05] to update my safeguarding course. Right. That’s what I have to do. I know you don’t do dentistry anymore. [00:49:10] So I even had my prompt come up, right? Because, you know, my manager said, you know, you’re due again for your safeguarding and [00:49:15] every they haven’t updated the content. To be fair, it’s always about like, as I told you, Victoria Quimby, [00:49:20] baby P, and it gives you an idea. And it’s really it’s something that was drilled [00:49:25] in quite a lot to us in our undergraduate training and something I have to do annually, so you know what to look out for. [00:49:30] When I was working in my NHS practice, I was really in tune because [00:49:35] of the type of patients that I was seeing up in Kent. I would sometimes be like, this child, looks [00:49:40] like neglected fingernails look really dirty, um, like gross dehydrated. [00:49:45] Because obviously like also for dentists, if you see a child, for example, that’s like three and every tooth is [00:49:50] rotten and they can’t eat properly, like you might say, like that’s neglect. Which in a way it is dental [00:49:55] neglect. Right. So then you have to, like I did, alert someone one time because they were not [00:50:00] taking measures. But then sometimes it could be lack of education, right. So the mother might not know that you [00:50:05] can’t put, you know, full fat Coke in a bottle and get them to be, like feeding on it all night. But [00:50:10] certainly, you know, we get told about the different signs that you should look at. So it’s like. [00:50:15]

Payman Langroudi: That story should be in the middle front and centre.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah yeah yeah yeah, [00:50:20] yeah. 100, 110%. And I think it was negligent of the dentist. I’ll go as far [00:50:25] as saying that because the dentist should have alerted we know that we should have alerted. Um.

Lala: I [00:50:30] think the difficulty is that one [00:50:35] of the things probably the I don’t know, I’m not a dentist, but I would imagine that [00:50:40] it’s front and centre of your training is patient confidentiality. And I think [00:50:45] that sometimes particularly health professionals, because health medical records confidentiality [00:50:50] is vital, you can get sued. I mean, I don’t need to explain [00:50:55] to any dentists how important that is. And so I think there’s a conflict for some professionals [00:51:00] where, yes, that dentist was negligent, that dentist should and could have [00:51:05] prevented the death of that baby. However, it doesn’t necessarily mean that that person [00:51:10] was just being negligent. It may well be that they got caught up in that [00:51:15] thing of thinking. Well, she’s told me this confidentially. She told me not to tell anyone I [00:51:20] would be breaching my, um, dental, you know, practice [00:51:25] policies by disclosing that. And I think this is really important for dentists to remember [00:51:30] that when it comes to anything like that, safeguarding and [00:51:35] child protection overrides any confidentiality.

Rhona Eskander: I think I think the important. [00:51:40] But listen I think. Yeah, exactly. So I think, I think the different child protection. So the difference is, [00:51:45] is that in our courses and our training you get taught about adults with special [00:51:50] needs. So like does someone having problem consenting if someone got [00:51:55] severe autism. So they give you all of that. They give you case studies, they ask you questions, then [00:52:00] they’ll talk specifically about children. But what they’ve not done, which is maybe they don’t talk [00:52:05] about the we don’t learn that’s not on our module. So you’re saying because in a way it was indirect. [00:52:10] So she’s telling him about her own abuse, but she may have not been [00:52:15] explicit or as explicit about the baby’s abuse. Do you follow me? So that [00:52:20] in a way, is we’re not taught that if I’m being fair on the module.

Lala: Link between [00:52:25] a woman is a mother is being abused.

Rhona Eskander: The child comes in. Yeah. So, you know, again, [00:52:30] like, does the child have strange bruising intra orally, you know, you’re like back of throat, [00:52:35] etc.. Are they being sexually abused in that way? What’s their demeanour like? We get taught all of that. But it’s not about [00:52:40] the link with the parent. It might be like, is the child intimidated from the parents in the room? And as I said, the vulnerable [00:52:45] adults, but is more about the special needs but not about the domestic. So that’s something that definitely should [00:52:50] be upgraded. That kind of came to me again.

Lala: It really surprises me to hear it, because [00:52:55] dentists are going to be right on the front line of people who are [00:53:00] how many other people are going to be that close? The things that dentists need to look out for [00:53:05] are things like marks and injuries around the neck.

Payman Langroudi: Probably loads more women in danger [00:53:10] than children.

Lala: Well, and how many times have people come to you with a missing tooth? And perhaps [00:53:15] you could have explored that a little bit more. How was that tooth evolved? What happened? [00:53:20] Um, and don’t necessarily accept that answer. And again, if there’s [00:53:25] sort of marks anywhere, tears on perineum, you know, [00:53:30] it’s important to err on the side of caution [00:53:35] with all forms of domestic because, you know, child abuse [00:53:40] is domestic abuse. It’s domestic. It’s it’s happening at home. Um, but [00:53:45] that’s so interesting to me that there is sort of no focus on abuse, [00:53:50] adult victims that that might come to you.

Rhona Eskander: It’s fascinating.

Lala: There should be more. [00:53:55]

Rhona Eskander: So in the cases of like, for example, do you sometimes look and get frustrated, like, you know, one [00:54:00] of the recent cases was about Sara, you know, Sara, the girl that was.

Lala: Sara Sharif.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Sara Sharif, [00:54:05] did you not know this story? Um, so she so she her father was, um, a [00:54:10] Pakistani guy. His first marriage was to an Eastern European woman. He had [00:54:15] or relationship? He had a child. The mother didn’t have, [00:54:20] um, I’m not concerned. You know what I’m trying to say? She didn’t have. He was basically the guardian [00:54:25] for the child. Then he got remarried to another Pakistani woman. And then basically, [00:54:30] I think they had their own kids. But Sara was the one being abused in the family. And then eventually [00:54:35] he beat her up so badly that she died. And he [00:54:40] ended up confessing it on a phone call, I think, because the guilt had consumed him. They tried to flee to Pakistan. [00:54:45] Fled? Exactly. And people again were really blaming social workers because apparently [00:54:50] neighbours had called. Things had been flagged. She was covered in bruises, and [00:54:55] I think they tried to cover her up, um, with certain clothes, etc., so [00:55:00] it didn’t look like she had been beaten up. And people said the clues were really there. And I remember looking [00:55:05] at your page and because you had discussed it in depth, but I want to know from your perspective, were you frustrated [00:55:10] because you thought there were so many clues, or do you think it’s just so much easier to look at things in hindsight?

Lala: I [00:55:15] mean, that case is an interesting one because it wasn’t just that there were clues. [00:55:20] This case was already in court. So they knew in a family [00:55:25] court because there had been significant domestic abuse from the father to [00:55:30] the mother. However, where the waters got muddied is that the mother [00:55:35] also was accused of things. So I think she’d slapped the daughter. So [00:55:40] this was seen and interpreted in the courts as two chaotic people [00:55:45] rather than an abusive relationship, and really quite a dangerous [00:55:50] man who’d had a history of abuse with every single previous partner who’d [00:55:55] also had a history of abuse against his own children. I still [00:56:00] can’t understand. I’ve read the the case. I can’t get [00:56:05] my head around what the judges were thinking in granting him [00:56:10] full custody. It doesn’t make any sense. It’s I, I [00:56:15] can read it over and over again. It will never make any sense to me that you can look at a man with that kind of history [00:56:20] and not see that he presents a huge risk. But again, I think it speaks to [00:56:25] a lack of understanding around domestic abuse and that huge link between [00:56:30] domestic abuse and child abuse and child deaths. The two things are inextricably [00:56:35] linked. And if we start to recognise that if somebody is making if somebody [00:56:40] is posing a significant danger to a child’s mother, they’re also a danger to that child. [00:56:45] People just aren’t making those links. So that [00:56:50] that was a case where social workers were concerned. Social workers didn’t want that child to [00:56:55] be living with her father. The courts made a different decision. The courts prioritised [00:57:00] contact with that father and allowed her, allowed Sara to be be [00:57:05] thrown to the wolves, basically. Again, it’s the system. [00:57:10]

Rhona Eskander: So one thing that I want to sort of interweaves a little bit, um, I think [00:57:15] my education around male misogyny and societal [00:57:20] views.

Lala: Sorry. Before we just I just want to say one thing before we move away from safeguarding [00:57:25] and and and dentistry is also obviously dentists are [00:57:30] trained in understanding, as you’ve said, the things about tooth decay, the links with neglect. [00:57:35] And those things don’t necessarily have to be child abuse. Maybe somebody just really living in poverty [00:57:40] and actually a dentist might be able to link them in with community services or social services just [00:57:45] to help with that. Don’t ever feel guilty about making a referral, although [00:57:50] if it’s not high level child protection, you do need to ask your patient if they’re okay with [00:57:55] you making referral. If it was something like poverty.

Rhona Eskander: I think the danger like not [00:58:00] the danger, but the massive trouble is, is like because of the crisis, I literally call it a dental [00:58:05] crisis. Yeah. There’s like literally no one to refer. The dentists are dropping like flies [00:58:10] and even the community hubs they had created, like during Covid, They were just [00:58:15] overwhelmed and oversubscribed. And I think it is. It’s one of the biggest crisises [00:58:20] in healthcare. People just don’t have access. Yeah. Um, even children, as I said, that cannot eat, cannot [00:58:25] drink, have abscesses, cannot swallow, still cannot get a dentist until maybe a dentist. [00:58:30] Like, do you know what? I feel so bad. Let me take on this case because the waiting lists are just horrendous. Yeah. [00:58:35] So again, this for me is a huge, huge problem in dentistry. Huge problem. [00:58:40] And even the hospitals don’t really take anything on. You know you can’t go to A&E for [00:58:45] dentistry. They don’t know how to handle it.

Lala: Yeah. Yeah. I mean the system is just completely [00:58:50] overwhelmed and and broken. But I think if people have if dentists [00:58:55] have it in, in their heads that safeguarding is my responsibility and [00:59:00] have that framework, one of the interesting things, I think is a reframing for [00:59:05] health professionals, particularly dentists away from DNA, did [00:59:10] not attend onto To w NB was not bought. So [00:59:15] if you look at a child who isn’t able to bring themselves to the dentist every six months as [00:59:20] was not bought rather than did not attend, then you can start to see a pattern. [00:59:25] This child deserved this dental care. They were not bought by their parents. It wasn’t just [00:59:30] this adult didn’t attend their appointment. So it’s about looking at things like that [00:59:35] to create those patterns and reframing that in in your head.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:59:40] love it. I think let’s get her as Prime minister and then we can pay her the double salary. So [00:59:45] I want to talk a little bit about misogyny, male misogyny [00:59:50] in society. And this is going to be very interesting for Payman. Um, I’ve introduced him [00:59:55] to a lot of topics on this podcast, and the reason why I say that is because I think that you are one of the people [01:00:00] that educated me the most online, and the older I’ve got as a woman, the more [01:00:05] I’ve recognised how much misogyny there is in this world [01:00:10] and also medical misogyny I would call as well, and how unfair the system is [01:00:15] when it comes to women’s healthcare. My father’s a gynaecologist. I have quite a lot of access [01:00:20] to what’s going on, studies, how much money goes into it. Um, talk [01:00:25] to me a little bit about, well, first of all, how you define misogyny and how the topic [01:00:30] became of interest to you.

Lala: Well, I would define [01:00:35] misogyny as not just but not just [01:00:40] the hatred of women. Obviously, the term misogyny means the hatred of women, but [01:00:45] it’s not just sexism from one individual person who [01:00:50] hates women. It is a whole system. It is what our society [01:00:55] is built on. Misogyny is a set of cultural beliefs [01:01:00] and attitudes that are designed to keep women subjugated and [01:01:05] under male control, and it Impacts subtly [01:01:10] in so many areas of our lives. It’s really [01:01:15] obvious that something is misogynistic. If we look back to that example [01:01:20] I gave from earlier when a man was calling out at me as a child telling [01:01:25] me he wanted to have sex with me, that’s very overt, blatant misogyny. [01:01:30] It’s less obvious if it’s something [01:01:35] subtle, like mansplaining, or if it’s something like [01:01:40] your GP dismissing you, going for the fifth time to talk about your period pain, [01:01:45] not recognising that it’s endometriosis, and thinking you’re just being a hysterical [01:01:50] woman. Things like, you know, a man being assertive [01:01:55] is seen as a powerful man, a woman boss who’s being assertive is [01:02:00] seen as a bitch. Those little subtle ways in which we [01:02:05] separate the genders and apply ideas [01:02:10] and roles to them that then continue to keep [01:02:15] women oppressed and keep women down.

Rhona Eskander: I have a lot of interesting conversations. [01:02:20] I have a friend of mine. He’s a dentist and I love him. But recently we’ve been really sort [01:02:25] of there’s been a lot of friction because he believes that women in the Western world are creating [01:02:30] drama for no reason. Right? And he says to me, like women these days, they have the upper [01:02:35] hand in the Western world, you have all of the rights that you want. You can do what you want. He’s like, look [01:02:40] at the women in Afghanistan. Look at the women in like, Haiti. Look at all of these places where [01:02:45] women’s rights are really nothing. They can’t vote. They can’t have an education. They’re forced into child marriage like that [01:02:50] is it? And we get into these arguments. And when I tell him, like, for example, you [01:02:55] know, male influencers like Andrew Tate, Russell Brand, etc. need [01:03:00] to be questioned. And they’re clearly extremely dangerous, misogynistic. He goes back down. The whole thing [01:03:05] is people are just scrutinising them because they’re ousting the government [01:03:10] and they’re calling out, have you heard this conspiracy theory? You know, and they’re basically calling out [01:03:15] propaganda. And it just infuriates me because I feel like, again, it just takes away from the message. [01:03:20] Okay, you say your view and then I want to kind of say.

Payman Langroudi: Do you recognise [01:03:25] an opposite side to that?

Lala: What do you think.

Payman Langroudi: Misogyny.

Lala: Is? [01:03:30]

Payman Langroudi: As in as in there’s going to be some advantages to being a man and some advantages to being a woman. [01:03:35] If you choose to only look at the advantages of being a man, then you’re forgetting the other side. [01:03:40]

Lala: That’s not the advantages of being a man. There is that [01:03:45] if you look at it like racism. Yeah, right. [01:03:50] There isn’t some part of that that we can see is well. [01:03:55] Oh, well, that’s you know, white people should be in power actually, because there’s some, you know, [01:04:00] there’s not. No, there’s none of that.

Payman Langroudi: There’s nothing about being a woman that’s more advanced.

Lala: It’s not about [01:04:05] being a woman that’s more advantageous. I love being a woman. But the [01:04:10] examples that Rona just gave about her friends saying that Western women [01:04:15] have all the rights, well, that’s pretty fragile. We don’t have those rights absolutely [01:04:20] set into stone. Those were hard fought and [01:04:25] won rights that we had to win from men. We should [01:04:30] never have had to ask and beg for the right to vote. We should have always had that. [01:04:35] There should have never been a time where men were in complete control of everything, and [01:04:40] then women had to slowly go, oh, please, can you let us leave the house by ourselves, please? Can we open [01:04:45] a bank account without a man?

Payman Langroudi: What do.

Lala: You mean?

Payman Langroudi: They should never have been.

Lala: Well, it shouldn’t have. We’re equals in [01:04:50] society have never been. Society should have never been created in in man [01:04:55] made.

Payman Langroudi: I know, but.

Lala: In a way.

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t help anything to say. [01:05:00] It should have never been.

Lala: Well.

Payman Langroudi: But.

Lala: It should have never been. And that’s what women have to fight for.

Payman Langroudi: As you say, this [01:05:05] current. Let’s just indulge me and call it equality is very, very, very, [01:05:10] very new. So, you know, humanity maybe, maybe the last 97% [01:05:15] of humanity has been the other way. Okay. It should never have [01:05:20] been. But that’s just the way the species was.

Lala: Right. But it was very shit for women [01:05:25] and women who came before us but didn’t want that.

Payman Langroudi: For their.

Lala: Daughters. [01:05:30]

Payman Langroudi: Her friends making that point, saying, look, now you’ve come forward so [01:05:35] far.

Lala: If that can, if women in Afghanistan in 2025 can [01:05:40] be banned from singing and speaking in public, banned from having any type of [01:05:45] career, they’re not allowed to to undertake midwifery courses [01:05:50] or work as doctors. And men are not allowed to be in the room when they have babies. [01:05:55] I mean, that is serious and severe and we can’t look at Afghanistan [01:06:00] and the people in Afghanistan as some other species. They’re not.

Payman Langroudi: Although Afghanistan [01:06:05] has gone backwards, you know, in the 60s.

Lala: So then.

Payman Langroudi: What.

Lala: Stops us from going.

Rhona Eskander: Backwards, [01:06:10] my love? And what you don’t understand is America is the Western world. And there is a woman [01:06:15] in Georgia who has been declared brain dead and is a human incubator. That [01:06:20] is America, that is not Afghanistan, and that is also a white Christian state. So for those that come at me and say, [01:06:25] oh, only Islamic State, yeah, you’re also Iranian and you feel very passionate about women, life, [01:06:30] freedom, right? Like the way Iranian women are now, you know, have risked their lives, [01:06:35] their eyesight, their limbs to fight so they can wear the clothes that they want to wear and beyond, [01:06:40] like it shows you in like we cannot be ignorant to the fact that this is this could [01:06:45] perpetuate the UK eventually. Do you know what I mean? You’ve got a daughter and I think that’s the important [01:06:50] thing to note. And allowing certain kind of influences to [01:06:55] infiltrate our feeds and to sort of brainwash. [01:07:00]

Payman Langroudi: People about it before.

Rhona Eskander: We have talked about it, but I think, I think the.

Payman Langroudi: People are not represented, haven’t been represented. [01:07:05] So this this ends up becoming represented. This ends up becoming the, um.

Lala: Where. [01:07:10]

Payman Langroudi: Where.

Lala: Are men not represented?

Payman Langroudi: You know, for, for a young man they don’t have role [01:07:15] models.

Lala: What.

Payman Langroudi: They don’t they don’t have role models that the that the that the culture. [01:07:20]

Lala: Who were your role models.

Rhona Eskander: Who were your role models.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. [01:07:25] God knows. Come on.

Lala: Sports people and sports people still very much exist [01:07:30] for men to have as role models.

Payman Langroudi: No, but the culture’s not talking about [01:07:35] men anymore.

Lala: Yes they are. They talk about Marcus Rashford and all the amazing things that he’s done for. [01:07:40]

Payman Langroudi: You know what I’m saying?

Lala: No. They talk about Gary Lineker and how great he’s doing at [01:07:45] the moment. I can think of a thousand men who are being celebrated [01:07:50] and who have platforms and who have voices. There [01:07:55] seems to be this myth that men are not visible [01:08:00] in public life. Men have always been dominating public [01:08:05] life. And then women said, can we have a go? Can we be part of this? [01:08:10] And then men reluctantly allowed them. To which again, the fact that you lot [01:08:15] even felt you had the right to allow us, when we’re just equal citizens [01:08:20] in this world the same way that you are, is wild. And all [01:08:25] of this stuff around, there’s no there’s no role models for men. That’s nonsense. [01:08:30] There are just as many role models for men as there are for women. What [01:08:35] seems to have happened is that gender equality for women [01:08:40] seems to have made some men feel like they’re losing something, or they’re having to [01:08:45] give something up when they’re not. Nothing has to change for men. You [01:08:50] just have to make the world a bit more fair and equal for women. That [01:08:55] has resulted in a backlash, and people like [01:09:00] Andrew Tate and other influencers like him have been able to exploit [01:09:05] that. They’ve exploited that by telling men and really short soundbites, [01:09:10] you know, no nuance included. Um, he’s [01:09:15] able to just come in and go, you know, what’s wrong with the world? There’s not enough strong men, [01:09:20] but you can be a strong man.

Lala: Now, that would be wonderful. I want strong [01:09:25] men. I want my son to grow up in a world where he can see, [01:09:30] um, that he can, you know, be whatever he wants to be [01:09:35] and be whoever he wants to be. But that also includes being a soft man, [01:09:40] if that’s what comes naturally to him. If my son develops. I mean, my son is the biggest [01:09:45] boys boy that you could ever meet. There is it’s there is [01:09:50] nature. Nurture is so strong with that boy. It’s nature, you know. He is so [01:09:55] masculine. But had he not been. And he’d have loved ballet. Doesn’t [01:10:00] make him not a man. You can be a man in any of those guises, [01:10:05] but Andrew Tate comes in and he says, what it means to be a man is [01:10:10] that you must be rich. You must work hard. Again, that stuff’s great. [01:10:15] Work hard, you know, aspire to have a lot of money. But he [01:10:20] also then frames it in dominance. He frames it in. You have to dominate [01:10:25] your household. You have to dominate the women around you. You have to be this way sexually. [01:10:30] You have to, you know, showing any emotion is weak. So whilst [01:10:35] yeah, you can extract some good things from his message and from other alpha male influences [01:10:40] messages, the core of it all is dominance [01:10:45] and subjugation of women. And that is harmful to 50% of the [01:10:50] Population, and we’re seeing the effects of it now in schools.

Payman Langroudi: Do you see much [01:10:55] more women worried about Andrew Tate? I mean, I don’t know. I [01:11:00] don’t know loads of men who follow.

Rhona Eskander: Listen, because I want, I want to I want to dismantle this. Right. Because also like this [01:11:05] friend of mine will say, oh, but, you know, the whole point is, is that government want to create [01:11:10] weak men. And that’s why Andrew Tate, because it’s such a threat to them. Because [01:11:15] weak men just wait for it. Because weak men are the ones that are going to be likely to go off [01:11:20] on war and doing stuff for the government long term. You know, all these conspiracy theories and I’m like, what the hell? I [01:11:25] was like the mental gymnastics that had to be performed for this. Like, for this. It is what it is. Do you [01:11:30] know what I mean? It literally is what it is. But what would you say to those people that are saying things [01:11:35] like this that, you know, it’s because women want us weaker, it’s because society want [01:11:40] us weaker, and we’re fed up of this, you know, this conspiracy theory. We’re sick of being, you [01:11:45] know, told by the government and people like what we should do because they want us to be robots and puppets. [01:11:50]

Lala: You know, I find it really difficult. I’ve [01:11:55] spent a long time arguing with people on the internet about these crazy [01:12:00] myths. I mean, people genuinely believe. And listen to Andrew Tate on things like Covid [01:12:05] vaccines because allegedly he’s got all this secret information about it, and [01:12:10] it’s like critical thinking skills have been lost. It’s like nobody can sit down [01:12:15] and go, hang on. This guy was literally on Big Brother, not even Celebrity Big Brother. He was just some random [01:12:20] dude off the street who was now in public life who is [01:12:25] feeding him secret information about vaccines. Like why? And if they were, he wouldn’t [01:12:30] even be able to interpret it. He’s got no medical knowledge whatsoever. I think if people were able to sit and [01:12:35] really critically think, who’s giving you this information? Where [01:12:40] are they getting it from? What do you think that they might want you to do with this information? [01:12:45] Why would the government want to make citizens weak. Actually, [01:12:50] in this capitalist structure, the government and the billionaires like Jeff Bezos, [01:12:55] they want worker bees. They want people stocking up their warehouses and and using their [01:13:00] muscles to build. That’s what they want. They don’t want us to all be, you know, intellectual [01:13:05] people who can out design them with AI. They want us to be they want men [01:13:10] to be strong.

Rhona Eskander: Blue collar men.

Lala: Yeah, that’s what they want. Keep them down. Do you feel defensive about [01:13:15] it? Because you’re a man?

Payman Langroudi: No. Not really.

Lala: How old? How [01:13:20] many children have you got?

Payman Langroudi: Two. One of each.

Lala: Right.

Payman Langroudi: That generation, you know, along with, you know, like [01:13:25] people used to bang on about the, um, wokeness and all that. Yeah. And for [01:13:30] me, it had gone too far, you know. You know, like. Fine. Uh, not not [01:13:35] that there was any problem with it, but the percentage of the population that are affected by transgender issues, [01:13:40] it’s a tiny percentage of the population. But the amount of time being talked about [01:13:45] that was such a huge amount of time that in that respect it gone too far, but that [01:13:50] the other side of this woke society, the good side of it is that, [01:13:55] you know, their their age group, they’re completely colour-blind, [01:14:00] you know, like there isn’t an ounce of racism in any of them. You know, [01:14:05] they’re anti-bullying. They’re, you know, they’re kinder, you know, much kinder than [01:14:10] our generation. And they’re very smart to social media. You know, they’re native to it. [01:14:15] So they understand it much more than we give them credit for.

Lala: I agree with that. But [01:14:20] I do also worry about the critical thinking. I worry about it with my son, about whether he can see [01:14:25] things for what they are. You know, because you’re presented with so much on social [01:14:30] media, aren’t you like so much bullshit. And for me, I’m like, oh, that’s clearly bollocks. [01:14:35] Why? Why are you trying to tell me that aluminium foil is going to give me cancer if I touch it, you [01:14:40] know? But whereas my son will read that and be like, ah, don’t use.

[ALL]: Tin foil anymore.

Lala: You know. [01:14:45]

Rhona Eskander: And you’ll be surprised because some of the smartest people, um, believe the biggest. I mean, my.

Lala: Friend.

Rhona Eskander: Was [01:14:50] like, tomatoes are man made and really bad for you. I was like.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but what do you believe about Covid? Do you do [01:14:55] you agree that.

Rhona Eskander: We can go into that? But I want to wrap up the misogyny thing. Yeah. The other thing I wanted to ask [01:15:00] you, Lala, is also like the thing that I have a problem with, right, is internalised misogyny. [01:15:05] So, you know, because you and I have known each other for a little while now, I’m a massive champion of women. [01:15:10] You know, I tend to be attracted more to kind of like stronger women like yourself, which is just like my natural [01:15:15] mate, because I’m like, she’s amazing. Look what she’s doing. I don’t I don’t like to compete with them. I’m more like, how can I learn from her rather [01:15:20] than compete?

Payman Langroudi: Internalised.

Rhona Eskander: Well, this is so this is an interesting internalised misogyny is like kind [01:15:25] of basically like the projection of hatred between women. And that’s because [01:15:30] internally as well, they have been conditioned to believe that they’re like fighting for [01:15:35] men essentially. So the thought process goes, correct me if I’m wrong, um, that like men [01:15:40] also want that in a way, because they, like women, don’t had never wanted to intentionally [01:15:45] compete with each other, but because of the views that had been instilled with them, they do right. Am [01:15:50] I kind of on the right? On the right lines? So what? I find it difficult and we know I don’t want [01:15:55] to give her more airtime, but there is a certain psychologist online we’ve talked about and [01:16:00] she’s got millions of like she is racking up the followers, right? She’s not even a psychotherapist, [01:16:05] but she calls herself a therapist or a psychologist. She has she’s a teacher who had, I think, a [01:16:10] psychology degree, but she’s a teacher, went online, is giving people advice, charging people hundreds. [01:16:15] And she was actually she’s actually an ally of Andrew Tate. So she perpetuates [01:16:20] all of his beliefs. And the way that she talks about women is so offensive.

Rhona Eskander: Like [01:16:25] she did something I honestly like sent my therapist friend a video of her, and I was like, this woman needs to be cancelled [01:16:30] ASAP. She sent a video to say that if you cheat and you’re [01:16:35] a man, it’s more acceptable than if you cheat. If you’re a woman, because men [01:16:40] cheat out of their needs needing to be met, whereas women cheat because they disrespect [01:16:45] their partner. And if a man forgives the woman, it will reinforce her view that the man [01:16:50] is weak. It’s just like she just comes out with these crazy statements and people believe her. [01:16:55] That really worries me. And then what worries me is the women that do celebrate [01:17:00] those male influencers online. And I find it quite disturbing because sometimes I look at [01:17:05] the comments, you know, I’m nosy and it’s like you can see these women so desperate for the attention of those [01:17:10] men, they become, pick me girls. And they’re like, they, they do. And I find it, like, really [01:17:15] sad in a way, because I feel like, how can there be progression if women cannot even be [01:17:20] there for each other?

Payman Langroudi: The conspiracy out of it, huh? You made a conspiracy about.

Rhona Eskander: A conspiracy, [01:17:25] let’s say. Let’s hear Lala’s view.

Lala: Do you not recognise that?

Payman Langroudi: A conspiracy of that.

Lala: Not a conspiracy, [01:17:30] but it’s.

Payman Langroudi: See, I see women are very competitive with each other and very jealous of each other. And. [01:17:35] Yeah, but. But the idea that that’s a conspiracy by men to keep them down.

Lala: Well, [01:17:40] yes, in a way it is so internalised. Misogyny comes from [01:17:45] the fact that society from when you are born. I [01:17:50] hope it’s changing now a little for our children and the new children we’re bringing into the world. [01:17:55] But gender roles have already have always been very rigid, and [01:18:00] society has always had an idea of what it means to be a man and what it means to be a woman. And if [01:18:05] you step outside of those boxes, then, um, then [01:18:10] you’re you’re a piece of crap, you know? So a woman who has sex with lots [01:18:15] of people who she’s not in a relationship with is going to be judged completely differently [01:18:20] to, oh, my God, not anymore. Yes, anymore.

Rhona Eskander: I’ll give [01:18:25] you two examples. Dan Bilzerian, who who used to sleep with nine women a day, and now he sleeps [01:18:30] with two versus Lili Phillips. Right. And I know that she is, but she is. Listen.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:18:35] the thing.

Rhona Eskander: That’s the wrong.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the that’s a wrong comparison.

Rhona Eskander: Why is it the wrong comparison? She’s a sex worker that has [01:18:40] chosen to be. Now we all know. I know we’ve discussed that. Like, is she happy? Truly happy. And there’s all other conversations [01:18:45] about that. But I’m saying the way society judges her.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the wrong comparison, because. [01:18:50]

Lala: It’s also the way that society would judge someone like her versus someone like Diddy [01:18:55] or Andrew Tate. Andrew Tate is an alleged, we have to say. [01:19:00] But I mean, I don’t see why we have to say alleged because he’s literally been very [01:19:05] open on the internet about how he’s made all his money from exploiting women on webcams. [01:19:10] He has trafficked women, some minors, um, and [01:19:15] exploited.

[TRANSITION]: Them. Has he?

Lala: Yeah, that’s what he’s being. He’s literally been on [01:19:20] his own. His his own website. They’ve just been taken down [01:19:25] from Spotify. There are a hundred different courses on exactly [01:19:30] how to get your girlfriend to become an OnlyFans model. [01:19:35] If you read Clown World, which is an investigation into Andrew Tate [01:19:40] by Matt Shea and Jamie Tarson, they’re brilliant men. They came on my [01:19:45] podcast. They went to Andrew Tate’s compound in Romania. They [01:19:50] interviewed him. They took part in his war rooms and his Hustler’s University. They [01:19:55] were inside group chats between him and his members. And [01:20:00] you one example that they give is about this 40 year old man who’s [01:20:05] been married to his wife for some time. And in this group chat, [01:20:10] the men are trying to teach him how to slowly get [01:20:15] his wife to be comfortable with just showing a bra on the internet or just showing [01:20:20] whatever, because then eventually, uh, your wife is a cash [01:20:25] cow. You can’t, you know, women’s bodies are a financial haven, you know? [01:20:30] Um, and there is this whole, you know, number [01:20:35] of men who sign up and pay for these courses. You have [01:20:40] to read it really to really quite understand.

Payman Langroudi: How about OnlyFans?

Lala: I think [01:20:45] it is important that women who want to, or people who want to work [01:20:50] in sex work have the means to be in control of that and [01:20:55] to not be pimped or exploited. I think it’s excellent [01:21:00] that because so much porn out there is completely free, you know, you’ll see [01:21:05] a woman who’s being absolutely degraded and violated in a mainstream porn film, [01:21:10] and she earned £15 and a packet of coke for doing that. And then [01:21:15] her video is generating hundreds of thousands for Pornhub. That [01:21:20] is not okay. That is exploitation. And whilst I wish that woman was never [01:21:25] in that position in the first place, if she can take control and [01:21:30] be financially rewarded or paid for for for the [01:21:35] exploitation, then that has to be a good thing. And sometimes it’s [01:21:40] not exploitation. Sometimes women take control and decide that that’s what they want [01:21:45] to do. Now it’s interesting because I was having a conversation with my dad about this the other day, and my dad said [01:21:50] me and my sister were arguing with him. So my dad said, OnlyFans [01:21:55] is disgusting. Every woman on there needs to know that she is preventing [01:22:00] herself from ever being able to get a decent husband. There is no [01:22:05] man in the world who is ever going to take a woman seriously who has been [01:22:10] on OnlyFans. Now me and my sister were just like, well, what about the men who pay? What [01:22:15] about the men who are creating this huge market? Should I ask every man I date whether [01:22:20] he’s ever subscribed to an OnlyFans or watched a porn? Because I can’t ever be with him because he’s the kind of [01:22:25] man who watches these things. And this is where the misogyny and the double standards come into it. [01:22:30] A thousand men had sex with Bonnie Blue on on one day. Very [01:22:35] few people are coming for those men. They’re all looking at Bonnie Blue. Well, actually, it’s [01:22:40] a mutual problem here. And and if we’re going to be critical of women [01:22:45] who are using OnlyFans, then we have to also be critical of the men who are who are paying.

Payman Langroudi: Are [01:22:50] you critical of Bonnie Blue, for instance?

Lala: Yes. I think Bonnie Blue is absolutely fucking hideous. [01:22:55] I think she’s disgraceful. I think.

Rhona Eskander: She is. She is because of all.

Lala: Because of how [01:23:00] she frames it.

Rhona Eskander: And also how she talks about women and how she blames women and how she claims she [01:23:05] goes online and says if a man cheats on me with like and he has a [01:23:10] wife, it’s the wife’s fault for not shagging him. And I invite all you husbands. [01:23:15]

[ALL]: That’s clickbait.

Lala: But I actually think she’s a sociopath or something. I think there’s something I think, I think [01:23:20] I think Bonnie Blue is a completely unique character and is not [01:23:25] representative of most women in sex work. Most women are just quietly getting [01:23:30] on with their sex work and not harming anyone, and deserve to be safe and [01:23:35] paid. It is their right to do that job. It is their body. You know, again, my dad [01:23:40] was saying, um, you know, these women using their bodies, it’s so dangerous. I was like, dad, you [01:23:45] went into fires for the government. Like, you know, that’s dangerous. [01:23:50] You your body was being used, but by by the system to go into [01:23:55] a really dangerous. You know, we’re all using our bodies in one way or another. [01:24:00] Um, I think Bonnie Blue is a separate thing in a way, because I think [01:24:05] there’s lots of harms around the fact that she, um, targets barely [01:24:10] legal, as she says. I think she’s spoken a lot about, um, wanting [01:24:15] men with autism, virgins with special needs and things. And it’s [01:24:20] like, um, um.

Rhona Eskander: She’s she’s I mean, look, I just think she’s [01:24:25] she’s a different conversation, but kind of the summary of the internalised misogyny. [01:24:30] Yeah. What is your view? Because I find it a problem I really do like because I look at some people online, [01:24:35] the way they’re engaging and.

[TRANSITION]: The people who.

Payman Langroudi: Write bad comments to you are mainly women. [01:24:40]

Rhona Eskander: I mean, look, I know it’s really interesting.

Lala: Internalised misogyny would be a woman [01:24:45] looking at the Russell Brand case. Yeah. Despite the fact that there is [01:24:50] such clear evidence from the documentary that came [01:24:55] out and obviously really clear evidence that’s being heard in in court leading up [01:25:00] to his trial. Internalised misogyny is the women in those comments [01:25:05] saying, well, why did those girls go back? It is those women who are saying they. [01:25:10]

Rhona Eskander: Just wanted money, which is what my dentist.

Lala: Says. Yeah. She just wanted.

Rhona Eskander: Money and fame.

Payman Langroudi: Because [01:25:15] he’s.

Rhona Eskander: Famous. He’s famous. They didn’t have to. Or people saying, I mean, even you had that awful, um, [01:25:20] lady Victoria Hervey that said, oh, uh, you know, Epstein and Prince [01:25:25] Andrew like, oh, come on. These girls, I mean, they were in yachts and Saint-Tropez with them. That’s [01:25:30] not, you know, real trafficking and real abuse is when I went to Thailand and someone was raped in an [01:25:35] alleyway, you know, being on a yacht in Saint-Tropez, like, people are almost, like, classist about it, like, [01:25:40] because it’s done in glamour. It’s okay.

Lala: Well, it’s also and it’s done as a it’s [01:25:45] done as a thing of othering those women. It is done in a way to [01:25:50] show I’m not that. I’m not like those girls, those girls who get raped, those ones who are responsible. [01:25:55] It’s lifting yourself up above other women in [01:26:00] order to gain male attention or male approval. And male approval [01:26:05] is something that we are all really conditioned into [01:26:10] because men are at the top, men are the most important, even if [01:26:15] it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Nature rather than nurture.

Lala: No, even me right? I have [01:26:20] noticed, you know.

Payman Langroudi: How do you know it’s not nature?

Lala: What? It’s not nature. Because there [01:26:25] are matriarchal societies where this is not present at all. There [01:26:30] are matriarchal societies where women are at the top and at the helm, and are [01:26:35] seen as the most important and the wisest. Whereas in our society, [01:26:40] I see.

Payman Langroudi: Where.

Lala: I have felt a feeling a few [01:26:45] times, where I’ve had a DM from a man saying, [01:26:50] I really love your content, I think you’re really amazing and I’ll. [01:26:55] I will take that as I’m almost like, wow, like I really take [01:27:00] that, like, great. A man has said it and then I have to check myself like, no, 30 women just said [01:27:05] the same thing to you. And you were like, yeah, thanks. And then a man says it and I’m like, that. That must mean [01:27:10] my content is good.

[TRANSITION]: That’s nature.

Lala: That’s why. How is that nature?

Payman Langroudi: Because he’s a man. You’re a woman. All [01:27:15] the things that you know.

[TRANSITION]: Men feel this doesn’t have to be nurtured.

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t have to be. Oh, society is so skew [01:27:20] whiff that you’ve been conditioned to be. You know you are a woman. He is a man. [01:27:25] You’re. You’re bi. Bi. Genetically. You’re genetically designed. Genetically [01:27:30] designed to attract him. Well, you’re not a lesbian. If you’re a lesbian, then it would be the other way.

Lala: But. Well, not necessarily. [01:27:35] No. You know, it’s. Society tells us that men set [01:27:40] the bar and men hold the power. And if the people who hold the power think that you’re great, [01:27:45] then it’s not nature that makes you go, hey, it’s it’s [01:27:50] nurture. It’s going, oh, I might be one step closer to the top. If men approve of me, I [01:27:55] might be picked by men for a variety of things. There’s a lot of conditioning, [01:28:00] and obviously we can’t see how we’d all be if, if if the world was completely different. [01:28:05]

Rhona Eskander: As I said to you, I still struggle with it. Because when I get trolled and when I get berated, it’s mainly by [01:28:10] women, which I find so upsetting. I find it so upsetting when I have like, [01:28:15] women be like, you’re so ugly. Like even when I do like an empowered piece about like, my business. [01:28:20] I’m like, I want to shout and scream about my business that I built with my, like, blood, sweat and tears. And, [01:28:25] you know, I’ll have women just tearing me down or like, picking apart the way that I want. The way that.

Payman Langroudi: I.

Rhona Eskander: Nurture. [01:28:30] Huh?

Payman Langroudi: Do you think that’s also nature?

Rhona Eskander: I just don’t find it helpful. I don’t think so. Because I don’t like. [01:28:35]

Payman Langroudi: Do you think it’s incorrect to say women are more bitchy than men?

Rhona Eskander: I think women are more bitchy.

Lala: Well, that’s a [01:28:40] misogynistic trope. I know a lot of bitchy men and men, but we don’t. We don’t call it bitching. [01:28:45] When men do it. We don’t call it bitching. Men will sit around. Men love [01:28:50] a bit of gossip. Every man I know loves a bit of gossip, loves [01:28:55] talking about people that they dislike. The thing is, you just wouldn’t call [01:29:00] it bitching.

Payman Langroudi: I’m just, you know, you don’t. You’ve had this discussion many times, right? That the equality [01:29:05] is one thing, but being the same is another thing.

Lala: But we don’t want it.

Payman Langroudi: We’re the.

Lala: Same equality. [01:29:10]

Payman Langroudi: We’re not the same at all. We’re totally different.

Lala: We’re not trying to be. I don’t think women are trying to be the same. It’s [01:29:15] about having equity.

Payman Langroudi: But even to your dad’s point, which I don’t [01:29:20] agree with, by the way, but even to your dad’s point, like equating the the bunny. [01:29:25] What was it, the Bonnie Blue? Was it the Bonnie Blue? No, it was OnlyFans. Equating the guy who [01:29:30] signs up to OnlyFans page with the girl. I get it, I get [01:29:35] what you’re saying. But what I’m saying is things are not the same. [01:29:40] Things are different for the different races, different genders, you know?

Lala: But it [01:29:45] would have only taken women to be in charge in whatever it was 200 [01:29:50] A.D., to set in stone that women should be having sex with [01:29:55] lots of people. And actually, if you look at evolution.

Payman Langroudi: Back in the day, sex at dawn.

Lala: You know why the penis [01:30:00] looks the way it does.

[TRANSITION]: Don’t tell me.

Lala: It looks like a mushroom, because women [01:30:05] were having sex with 6 or 7 different people within the tribe. And in order for [01:30:10] your your sperm to be the winner, your mushroom shaped penis [01:30:15] was designed to drag out the other sperm and keep your [01:30:20] one in there. I’m probably not describing it very well, but Google. Google it. That makes sense.

Rhona Eskander: Sarah.

Lala: I [01:30:25] read it in Sarah Pascoe’s book, and it was it was very common for [01:30:30] women to have sex with loads of people. And then everyone in the tribe just raise those babies. [01:30:35] We could still be doing that. Yeah, but back in the day, whenever it was, some [01:30:40] men decided to go, no, no, sorry. God said, we can have lots of sex. [01:30:45] You can’t. God also said, well, and then they wrote it, and [01:30:50] then we all just went, okay.

Payman Langroudi: You had to do with, like, agriculture coming in, you know, because then when agriculture [01:30:55] came in, the land ownership came in. Then then it.

Lala: Was long time.

Payman Langroudi: After [01:31:00] handing, handing it down, handing down.

Rhona Eskander: That was a long time, not that long [01:31:05] ago.

[TRANSITION]: That was not that long ago.

Lala: Well, that’s the thing you speak about, you know, handing [01:31:10] down an ownership. Yeah. Ownership of women by men.

Payman Langroudi: So you go from knowing [01:31:15] for for a child to know who his father was was an important thing, because [01:31:20] your father owned this bit of land and so he could hand it down to you. But before that, [01:31:25] you’re right. You’re absolutely right. There was something. There was no need to know who the father was.

Rhona Eskander: There was actually something interesting. Do [01:31:30] you know the Vikings? The reason why they’re so tall as well, like the Scandes? Because the Vikings [01:31:35] also used to rape the strongest, tallest, broadest women for their sons to be big, [01:31:40] tall and strong.

Payman Langroudi: Sure.

Rhona Eskander: So, yeah, I write that. It’s so lovely. Listen, [01:31:45] we could go on to this round and round and round. So I’m gonna. I’m gonna take away a second. I want to talk to you a bit [01:31:50] about the P-diddy trial. Uh, because I really trust your knowledge and sources. I feel like you [01:31:55] always do your research. Um, what do you think is going to happen? How the jury set up anything [01:32:00] that. I just would love to know your views.

Lala: Um, I think it’s a really precarious [01:32:05] one, because it is so important that he’s [01:32:10] found guilty. Because if he’s found not guilty, I think it will have [01:32:15] a really sad impact on future cases of [01:32:20] powerful men being held to account. I am concerned [01:32:25] about the fact that it is an eight man, four woman [01:32:30] jewellery, although that’s not necessarily a problem because, as you said, internalised [01:32:35] misogyny can mean that sometimes women can be worse than men. Um, [01:32:40] but having a male dominant jury might [01:32:45] mean that there are less people on that jury who have that empathy and that recognition [01:32:50] about coercion, and how going back or being [01:32:55] paid for something doesn’t mean you consented to it. I think sometimes women [01:33:00] may have more experience of that kind of nuance around coercion. Um, [01:33:05] so I do I do worry about that.

Payman Langroudi: I think it does pivot on consent. [01:33:10] Right.

Lala: So what he’s being charged with is sex trafficking, racketeering, [01:33:15] and, I think conspiracy to prostitution. So [01:33:20] the racketeering is a charge. So it’s interesting because it’s not actually a [01:33:25] charge about domestic abuse, although it centres on the [01:33:30] testimony of Cassie Ventura, who he was in a relationship with [01:33:35] for 11 years. What happened was she was, [01:33:40] you know, did you see that video where she was badly [01:33:45] beaten by him? So all of that came out and under the Adult Survivors [01:33:50] Act, just before the statute of limitations ran out. And [01:33:55] just as that video was released, Cassie took civil action against Diddy, which [01:34:00] he paid within 24 hours. 20 million didn’t allow the case to go to court, [01:34:05] settled it. But because of all of that, and because when that [01:34:10] all came out, around 120 other victims 60 men, 60 women, [01:34:15] 25 of whom were children at the time, all came [01:34:20] forward to say that they had been abused in some way by Diddy over [01:34:25] a number of years. That then led the authorities to start looking [01:34:30] into what the hell was going on in Diddy’s world, which [01:34:35] led them to realise that he was having these very regular things that he called freak offs. [01:34:40] And these free coughs were sometimes four days straight, no [01:34:45] stopping, just full on orgies, group sex with [01:34:50] people he’d either found at parties or paid to be there. So [01:34:55] sex workers, Cassie, was there other women? He was in? Relationships were there. [01:35:00] And at these free coffees, it was extreme. It was extreme. It was urinating [01:35:05] in people’s faces. It was all sorts of stuff. And [01:35:10] what he would do was record those acts. So he had collateral [01:35:15] against all of the people who attended these parties that he would later use [01:35:20] to threaten and blackmail them. So what the racketeering part [01:35:25] is about is it’s almost like mafia mob style stuff, [01:35:30] because he wasn’t just some real creepy guy with [01:35:35] an incredibly high sex drive who found people he wanted to have sex with and had like private orgies [01:35:40] with them. This was an organised situation. He had a [01:35:45] whole host of people around him providing lube.

Payman Langroudi: Spiking.

Lala: Drugs, the sex workers. [01:35:50]

Payman Langroudi: Doing.

Lala: The filming, providing security, driving people from one place [01:35:55] to another for the procurement of sex, threatening people, making [01:36:00] them sign NDAs. So this was a whole operation, and he couldn’t have done any of the things [01:36:05] that he did without the assistance of all of those people, which is what makes it racketeering. [01:36:10] And then the sex trafficking is that he was getting people from one state or one country to [01:36:15] another and having them moved there for the purposes of these free coffees, which were so [01:36:20] brutal that people had to be hooked up to IV drips at the end of [01:36:25] them because they were just completely depleted and dehydrated. So it’s really serious [01:36:30] stuff.

Rhona Eskander: So why does it worry you that the jury’s got? I mean, for obvious reasons. But as [01:36:35] in, why does it worry you that the jury has eight men and four women?

Lala: The narrative that I’ve seen a [01:36:40] lot on social media, particularly from men, is this idea that these people can’t [01:36:45] have been victims because they went to more than one free cuff. These people can’t have been victims [01:36:50] because they consented. Cassie can’t have been a victim because she stayed with him for 11 [01:36:55] years. So there is this real naivete around the coercion. [01:37:00]

Rhona Eskander: But that’s the same with all these media cases, I find, because people say, which is also [01:37:05] the argument that I have with, um, my dentist friend where he’s like, but they [01:37:10] stayed. They wanted the money, they wanted the glamour. They were happy to go to the red carpet. They were happy to see what I mean. So [01:37:15] I think like people find it really difficult to understand. But also I would also say people [01:37:20] also find it really difficult to understand that you can be talented and you can be a psychopath or a paedophile. It’s like when Michael [01:37:25] Jackson came out and all that stuff came out in the documentary. It was so blatantly obvious [01:37:30] that these men had been sexually abused when they were children. Like, Michael Jackson would never do that. Okay, he [01:37:35] can sing, the man can sing, but he also came from sexual abuse. So it’s not it’s not that kind of crazy [01:37:40] to accept that. Like, it’s almost like people think you can’t be talented. It’s almost [01:37:45] like, you know, you can’t be talented and you can’t be a psychopath. At the same.

Payman Langroudi: Time, lives [01:37:50] are so like crazy that, you know, pushed to the next, to the next thing, to the next thing. It’s [01:37:55] almost more likely with super successful.

Lala: Because you’ve got.

Payman Langroudi: Power. Yeah. Power. Exactly. [01:38:00] Yeah. Exactly.

Rhona Eskander: Lala. What I wanted to ask you as well is [01:38:05] a little bit about abortion rights. I know we both saw I had sent you a post recently [01:38:10] on social media, which was really scary. I don’t know if you saw it. I’ll let Lala kind of [01:38:15] go into it. Are you worried that the UK is going to follow suit with abortion rights? Um. [01:38:20] Like America?

Lala: Um, I don’t think [01:38:25] we will go that way because I think we have a much less religious nation. We’re much more secular. [01:38:30] And I, I think it’s religion that informs a lot of the [01:38:35] drive towards controlling women’s reproductive rights. I [01:38:40] think that things are a bit strange at the moment. You’re talking about this [01:38:45] new police guidance around just.

Rhona Eskander: Tell Payman give it a summary.

Lala: So there’s been [01:38:50] this news reported this week that the National [01:38:55] Police Chiefs Council has issued new guidance to police officers that [01:39:00] in the cases of miscarriage or stillbirth, where [01:39:05] it is suspected that there might have been some foul play, they should be [01:39:10] taking women’s devices, checking their fertility apps, [01:39:15] checking their any recordings about their menstrual cycle, checking messages that [01:39:20] they may have left to people. I think it’s really important to emphasise that the guidance [01:39:25] is about where there is suspected foul play. However, the problem [01:39:30] with that is that we know that boundaries are often breached [01:39:35] and that mistakes are often made, and this puts women in an incredibly [01:39:40] vulnerable position at a time where they are possibly more vulnerable [01:39:45] than they could ever be in their lives. And I feel like it’s come at a really strange time, [01:39:50] because a case has just concluded last week that of a woman called Nicola [01:39:55] Packer, who In lockdown. Obviously during lockdown [01:40:00] things were completely mad and so people couldn’t go and get terminations or go [01:40:05] and seek help from doctors in the way that they ordinarily would. But [01:40:10] the law was changed, and it meant that in order to enable women to have [01:40:15] abortions, they could do it over the phone. They didn’t have to have the scans and all of that [01:40:20] kind of stuff. So Nicola Packer, she was a 45 year old woman, [01:40:25] or I think maybe 43 at the time. She believed [01:40:30] that she was feeling unwell. She was having some kind of symptoms. She [01:40:35] didn’t feel great, but she’d been having periods.

Lala: And then she [01:40:40] discovered that she was pregnant after a few weeks of feeling like this. So she assumed [01:40:45] that she was 7 to 10 weeks pregnant. She contacted [01:40:50] Bpas or whatever it was procured. These abortion pills took [01:40:55] them at home and then got into deep distress and actually [01:41:00] ended up giving birth. It was it was a still birth, but the baby [01:41:05] was 26 weeks. So she goes to the hospital. [01:41:10] I mean, obviously she’s having this abortion and a much more formed baby is is [01:41:15] coming out than what she would have expected. She goes to the hospital. She [01:41:20] tells them initially, I think that she’s miscarriages because I believe that she was frightened [01:41:25] of what they’d say if she said that she took abortion pills. Eventually [01:41:30] she did tell them that she’d taken these abortion pills, but she thought that she was much earlier along in the pregnancy, [01:41:35] and the midwives called the police. The police arrive at the hospital. She [01:41:40] just had the baby removed from her. She hasn’t even been [01:41:45] given blood thinning medication or any of the things that she would need to make sure that [01:41:50] she is physically safe. She’s arrested at that moment and taken straight to [01:41:55] a police cell where, straight after this stillbirth, [01:42:00] she’s sitting on wooden planks in a cell, being told that she is potentially [01:42:05] being done for a, um, an offence [01:42:10] that could carry life, a life sentence in prison. So I think the UK. [01:42:15] So people are confused about abortion laws in the UK. Abortion [01:42:20] is not legal in the UK under an act called [01:42:25] the Offences Against the Persons Act, which is a law that [01:42:30] was created in 1861 before women even had the right to vote.

Lala: This law [01:42:35] was created and it said that anyone who performs or procures an abortion [01:42:40] can go to prison for up to life. In [01:42:45] 1967, the Abortion Act made [01:42:50] amendments to the Offences Against the Person Act, which meant that whilst abortion [01:42:55] is still illegal, there are ways around it. So if you have permission [01:43:00] or consent or whatever from two doctors and the pregnancy [01:43:05] is less than 24 weeks, then you can have a legal abortion [01:43:10] if the pregnancy is over 24 weeks. The only cases in which you can [01:43:15] have an abortion is if there is a serious risk to the woman’s life, or the foetus has got very serious [01:43:20] abnormalities. So you can still and always have been able [01:43:25] to be prosecuted in this country. If you had perform an abortion, [01:43:30] an illegal abortion or have one. Campaigners have been campaigning for a really [01:43:35] long time, and especially in light of Nicky Packer’s case, that abortion in the UK [01:43:40] must be decriminalised. Women should not, under any circumstances, be put into [01:43:45] that situation that she was put in directly after miscarriage. So it just seems [01:43:50] like a very odd timing for the National Police Chiefs Council just [01:43:55] while it is ramping up this this, uh, campaign to decriminalise abortion, [01:44:00] to then release this new guidance about actually coming down more [01:44:05] hard on women who have had miscarriages or stillbirths. It is very worrying.

Payman Langroudi: Why do you think why do you think? [01:44:10] What do you think the motivation is?

Lala: I mean, I think the thing is the motivation is potentially [01:44:15] not a bad one. In the case that. Well, [01:44:20] I can’t really actually think of that many [01:44:25] cases where a woman, you know, women kill babies, women do kill babies. That [01:44:30] is usually because of very severe psychotic episode that that woman [01:44:35] is going through, usually associated with some sort of post-natal depression. Very [01:44:40] rare to find a woman who would do that for sadistic reasons. Obviously, [01:44:45] you know, you also have things like shaken baby be syndrome, where people get [01:44:50] frustrated, where people lose it with a crying baby. But it’s very, very rare for [01:44:55] women to kill their own babies. So I can’t really understand what that motivation [01:45:00] is, because there aren’t hundreds of women who are who are [01:45:05] killing their babies. And also, I think that if you are a vulnerable young woman, you didn’t [01:45:10] realise you were pregnant or something has happened and you just don’t want this baby anymore, you might [01:45:15] be driven to desperation. You might be driven down a back alley where someone sticks a knitting needle [01:45:20] up you, God forbid. But then to be punishing those women is [01:45:25] crazy, because I can’t see a situation where a woman, or a very [01:45:30] rare situation where a woman isn’t deeply, desperately in danger and very [01:45:35] vulnerable. They convicted another woman, a young woman. I think it was [01:45:40] during lockdown as well. She was a teenager.

Lala: She gave birth to a baby in her bedroom [01:45:45] alone. She didn’t want her parents downstairs to know that she was pregnant. I’m [01:45:50] not even sure that she knew she was pregnant. Can you imagine being 16? Suddenly [01:45:55] this baby starts coming out of you. You’re having to. She described having to hold her own mouth. Going [01:46:00] through labour on your own while your parents are upstairs. Um. The baby [01:46:05] was then found by her mum in a black bin bag outside [01:46:10] that she’d put it. You know, the baby was no longer alive. She was convicted [01:46:15] and sent to prison, which again, I feel is a miscarriage of justice. You [01:46:20] can look at it as she should have done 100 different things, and that baby should have survived, and [01:46:25] that she should have gone downstairs to her parents. She should have called the ambulance. But is [01:46:30] she someone who poses a risk to the rest of the public? Is she someone who is evil? [01:46:35] Or has she just gone through something so traumatic that she will [01:46:40] never be able to probably forgive herself for when she’s older, and it all starts to make sense to her. [01:46:45] So I just think that we need to. These things are so nuanced and very rarely [01:46:50] come from a place of, you know, who’s just popping out babies to kill them. It just doesn’t work [01:46:55] like that. So yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So I think it’s an important conversation. I could literally sit and talk to [01:47:00] her for like, hours. Like he’s just like, honestly, like, honestly, I just find you so fascinating.

Payman Langroudi: It’s sad in 2025 [01:47:05] of all the things you’ve brought up, you know.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. But it’s just that’s what. That’s why I started following her. Because I [01:47:10] think she’s so incredibly well informed. You can find her at Lala. Let me explain. [01:47:15] I want to finish off talking a little bit about your book. So I read Lala’s book. Um. Block [01:47:20] delete. Move on. I found it quite healing. I’m really. I am really [01:47:25] lucky because.

Payman Langroudi: The gist of it block people, delete people.

Rhona Eskander: No, no, it’s actually about relationships and how [01:47:30] to avoid unhealthy relationships. Because Payman and I have this joke. We once had a [01:47:35] psychic, a psychotherapist, um, who also is like really interested in relationship [01:47:40] dynamics, couples therapy, narcissism, etc. and I was describing how one of my friends [01:47:45] had met some guy, and within a week she’d dropped her life to be with him. And, [01:47:50] you know, got pregnant after like a month and stuff. And he was like. And I was like, I would just never do that. He was like, well, you’d never [01:47:55] have been in love. And I was like, no. Exactly, exactly. And I was like, no, but I’ve done enough work on myself [01:48:00] to know that, like, you know, you have to ask the right questions. You have to be healthy. And [01:48:05] when it was really hard because I had to dismantle a lot because I had the most incredible, loving husband in the world, and [01:48:10] he was the one that, by the way, sent me the post about the, um, about the abortions and [01:48:15] how they’re tracking us. And he’s always like, on my side, but he’s he’s like a healthy masculine, if that makes sense. [01:48:20] It took me a really long time because I also had to, like, move away from the narcissistic, toxic masculinity. [01:48:25] So sometimes it’s like we were talking about you and how you have to be like, pull yourself in, reel [01:48:30] yourself in. This is good, this is healthy. This is safe. And, you know, like Payman was just like, well, when you’re in love, [01:48:35] like all these things, I’m like, I am in love. But that’s the whole point, right? Like when you’re actually dismantling [01:48:40] hard core Hardcore beliefs, and you’re willing to do that for the person you care about. That is [01:48:45] deep love, you know? So I found Lala’s book Really healing, even though I was [01:48:50] already in a relationship at that point because it was like, wow, I’ve done everything right. It was actually really good for me. [01:48:55]

Lala: Are you married?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Lala: Are you in love?

Payman Langroudi: Falling in love was the [01:49:00] phrase. The phrase I used. Yeah. I said you’ve never fall in love. I fell in love. Whatever [01:49:05] it was.

Rhona Eskander: He basically says chaos. And you can’t eat, sleep or drink.

Payman Langroudi: Can you give me five years ago.

Lala: That’s [01:49:10] limerence.

Rhona Eskander: Thank you. I’ll send you the book. I’ll buy you one. Anyway, [01:49:15] what was the hardest chapter for you to write in that book?

Lala: Um, probably the one [01:49:20] about chapter three. I can’t even remember what the chapter is called, but it’s [01:49:25] the one about, um, mental health and attachment [01:49:30] styles and all of that kind of stuff. And purely, it was only the I didn’t find any of [01:49:35] it hard to to write, really, because I had so much to say. I just wanted to put it [01:49:40] all out. But that one was the one that I felt the most under pressure to get right, [01:49:45] because I was writing about things that I’m really supposed to know about, like as a social worker. [01:49:50] And I felt really under pressure to for that to be read. I don’t [01:49:55] know if you feel the same with like, Dental posting Dental things.

Rhona Eskander: Of course, dentists all the time. It’s like if [01:50:00] you feel like you’re kind of claiming to be an expert, you want to make sure you’ve got your like, knowledge and [01:50:05] stats and facts because people could come for you, especially academics, you know?

Lala: It gave me like imposter syndrome kind [01:50:10] of writing that like, am I? Do I know what I’m talking about? It’s like, yeah, you know what you’re talking about.

Payman Langroudi: Advocate [01:50:15] for social workers in your content.

Lala: Yeah, I mean, I try to yeah. [01:50:20]

Rhona Eskander: I think you did like because when the whole Sarah Sharif thing came up, you did because people were so angry with the social [01:50:25] workers. And I think you were very like, I’ve been a social worker. This are things that could have gone wrong. [01:50:30] This is my point of view. This is what this is the pressure they’re under. She does. I wouldn’t say it’s the bulk of your content, but [01:50:35] I think when it comes up relevantly, you do. Yeah. Um, what’s the next book?

Lala: Oh, [01:50:40] well, I don’t know if it’s even going to happen yet. I’m just currently in talks with publishers, but I want to write [01:50:45] a book about a lot of the stuff we’ve been speaking about. Payman is not going to read it. He’s gonna.

Rhona Eskander: You know, [01:50:50] buy it for him.

Lala: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Right.

Lala: Um, I want to write about the [01:50:55] rise of misogyny and how it’s impacting, um, dating and relationships, [01:51:00] particularly among heterosexual people. How are we going? Because everything has changed [01:51:05] since I wrote that book in 2021. Came out in 2022. But actually, things [01:51:10] are significantly different. The gender divide has really grown in that time. [01:51:15] And as you say, we often encounter people who are really lovely. I’ll [01:51:20] be on a date with someone who seems really lovely, and then all of a sudden he’ll say something like, well, [01:51:25] Andrew Tate is such a legend. And I’m like, oh my God, like you think a rapist and [01:51:30] human trafficker is a legend. How are we going to get through this? But it’s happening more and more. I’m getting so many messages [01:51:35] from women almost on a daily basis. My husband has suddenly become a real right [01:51:40] winger. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I was going to say the right wing populism is kind of somehow [01:51:45] intertwined with it’s very misogyny.

Lala: It’s very, very much. It’s all one in the same. If [01:51:50] you hate Muslims and gays and immigrants and, you know, [01:51:55] then you probably don’t like women and you want to be on top of everybody, you know. There’s a lot of narcissism [01:52:00] involved in being a racist or a homophobe or a sexist, because it means [01:52:05] that you think you’re superior to everyone else.

Rhona Eskander: I think you’re right. As like religious extremism [01:52:10] starts to perpetuate society more. We’re more at risk because, you know, people always [01:52:15] are so threatened by Islamic states, Islamic regimes, and they have a right to be. But [01:52:20] I’m like, hang on a second. America is a white supremacist Christian state, and that is equally as dangerous. [01:52:25] You know what I mean? Just because you feel like you can dress and look a certain way, like it is [01:52:30] still dangerous, and we’re seeing that more and more.

Lala: Absolutely.

Rhona Eskander: So obviously everything that you [01:52:35] do is so heavy and you know, it’s incredible. But how do you also [01:52:40] stay positive and keep light and protect your own mental health?

Lala: Oh, I don’t I’m terrible at it. [01:52:45] People people often ask me this and I’m like, I don’t know. I just sort of [01:52:50] like rock back and forth while eating chocolate biscuits and crying. Um, I go to [01:52:55] the gym a lot. Um, I, I, I make sure that pretty [01:53:00] much every single day I do some form of training just to get the endorphins going, [01:53:05] even if it’s just dancing, putting on, I play music.

Rhona Eskander: I was gonna say.

Lala: Music in my ears, and just moving [01:53:10] my body and dancing is really important to me. That movement. I think you can [01:53:15] move stress and trauma through your body a little bit by just moving it out so that that’s [01:53:20] the thing, but I don’t I don’t do enough. I don’t take enough time off work. I don’t [01:53:25] have a great work life balance. I’ve never been able to really achieve [01:53:30] that. So if anyone’s got any tips.

Rhona Eskander: Let me I think it boils down to which would have to be a conversation [01:53:35] for another time as ADHD, which we share together. So that’s the difficult thing, is balance. Thank you [01:53:40] so, so much for people that want to find her. As I said, it’s la la. Let me explain. La la la [01:53:45] la la la. So three laws. Yeah. And what’s the website if you’ve got one. No. [01:53:50] Fine. No more blogging.

Lala: Well, I’m on Patreon.

Rhona Eskander: Yes. Yeah, she’s on Patreon as well. And [01:53:55] as I said, like, her page is my favourite. I’m sure she has to put up with annoying teeth posts because she’s like the [01:54:00] first person that comes up because I watch her content so much. Thank you so much. You really are such an inspiration [01:54:05] and for anyone that is looking to heal traumas and you know, to have great relationship advice, [01:54:10] I highly recommend her book as well.

Lala: I highly recommend you as well. You changed my life and I only [01:54:15] ever show my eyes and my teeth when I do reels. And I cannot tell you how many people, every [01:54:20] time anyone sees my teeth, they’re like, oh my God, who did your teeth? The tooth. [01:54:25]

Rhona Eskander: Fairy. Oh, I love that so much. I’m so glad. Thank you so much again.

Lala: Thank you for having me.

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] Enlightened Online Training.com to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time whitening Underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you [00:00:30] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:40] Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Doctor Andrew [00:00:45] Alcantara to the podcast. Andrew’s a young dentist who is, uh, [00:00:50] doing good work. I’ve enjoyed your work, Andrew. Looking at your work lately, for someone who’s [00:00:55] only been out, what, five years now? Um, and also the founder of Mobile [00:01:00] Smiles, which is a charity that’s doing lots of work all over the world. Massive pleasure to have [00:01:05] you.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Thank you very much for having me. It’s a as I said, it was a it’s an honour to be here. And also [00:01:10] I’ve got a bit of imposter syndrome. It’s called the Dental Leaders podcast. But I don’t feel like I’m [00:01:15] anywhere near that yet. But thank you for having me on.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and you said you’re [00:01:20] a listener as well.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah. Yeah, I’ve listened to a lot of podcasts. Um.

Payman Langroudi: When do you listen?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Driving. [00:01:25] Driving? That’s when I tend to stick a podcast on. That’s the time where.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:01:30] you work in different towns, right?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah, yeah. So when I’m driving to Birmingham, it’s about an hour away. [00:01:35] So I’ll listen on that hour there and back. Probably get [00:01:40] through a podcast every single, every single journey. So I get through quite a bit really.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:01:45] other do you only listen to? Dental or do you listen to other podcasts?

Andrew El-Khanagry: No no, no. Um, there’s also one, [00:01:50] uh, a few different ones. Uh, diary of a CEO listened to quite a bit. Yeah. Um, there’s [00:01:55] one also by Jay Shetty. Yeah. Have you listened to listen to his podcast at all. Yeah. He’s he’s he’s done quite [00:02:00] a few also good books. I think like a monk all that kind of stuff. He’s a yeah he’s got, he’s [00:02:05] got some good podcasts. So yeah I listen to a variety of things. Dentists who invest listen to that sometimes. Um. [00:02:10] Jazz Galati. He also does a really great cast. Great. No, no, no. And yours is great. Yours [00:02:15] is really good as well.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, it’s kind of interesting because a book, a talking book is 6 or [00:02:20] 7 hours. Most like small ones. Yeah, yeah. That means like you’re doing, I don’t know, eight [00:02:25] hours a week of driving. Yeah, literally, you could listen to one book a week if you wanted to. So it’s a very interesting [00:02:30] idea, man.

Andrew El-Khanagry: I guess it’s I guess without realising you absorb so much knowledge. Yeah. Um, [00:02:35] it’s one of those things where I feel like in conversation, I would remember [00:02:40] something from a podcast, and I’d be able to bring it in without realising, because you’re just absorbing [00:02:45] knowledge all the time through different podcasts, through investing, or through some random, uh, [00:02:50] interview with, uh, someone who does something in science and you remember some scientific facts. So, yeah, it’s a [00:02:55] good way just to absorb knowledge, but to be honest, it’s just for me. I pass time with it rather than listen to music. I’m into [00:03:00] my music. But after a while it’s. I feel like, you know, you listen to a conversation. [00:03:05] The journey just goes a lot quicker when you listen to a really good conversation.

Payman Langroudi: So you grew [00:03:10] up in Derby?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah. So I was born in Egypt. Um, I’m [00:03:15] part of the Coptic Egyptian community, and, um, I moved to England [00:03:20] when I was four. Um, I lived here in a small town called Burton on Trent.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve been [00:03:25] there.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Have you been there? There’s not much going on in Burton. Um, and. Yeah, that’s next to Derby. [00:03:30]

Payman Langroudi: So you’ve always been there?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Well, yeah, I’ve been. I’ve been based there. Went [00:03:35] to schools in Burton. My secondary school was in Derby. Um, and then, uh, [00:03:40] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you remember arriving in the UK or not?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah. So I remember, [00:03:45] I remember because it was such a big difference. Cairo I was born in Cairo, and England [00:03:50] is such a big difference. I do remember exactly the point when I arrived, and I’ve got some [00:03:55] recollections of some times when I was in Egypt as well. Um, but the [00:04:00] the main thing was, is that I couldn’t speak any English.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Me too. When I got [00:04:05] here. Yeah. Um, so I remember my first time I went to school, I think [00:04:10] went into reception year, and I was just, I [00:04:15] would go to school and not make any friends, not be able to communicate with anyone. And then one day I [00:04:20] went home and my apparently I told my parents, so they tell me, um, apparently [00:04:25] I said, oh, everyone can speak Arabic now. I think that’s when they realised that I was starting to speak English, because [00:04:30] everyone thought then that I was able to communicate with everyone. So, uh, so yeah, that was probably the biggest challenge [00:04:35] to begin with.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know why your parents moved for work?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Mainly. My dad. My dad’s a [00:04:40] doctor. He, um. The idea was he. He got his. He’s a he’s an obs [00:04:45] in Gynae. So he went to Royal College here, finished, uh, his hospital [00:04:50] career and everything, and then went back to Egypt to open a clinic, got married, [00:04:55] and the plan was to settle down and open his own private practice and everything. Um, and then just [00:05:00] didn’t like it. Couldn’t couldn’t get back to the Egyptian system. Um, it’s [00:05:05] a bit haphazard. There’s a lot of it’s not as ethical as the UK system. So [00:05:10] he decided to come back to the UK. Then, you know, got a good job here. Then told [00:05:15] my mum, meet myself and my younger sister to come to England and we joined them from there onwards. [00:05:20] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then were you walking a kid? Were you?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Um, it’s [00:05:25] an interesting one because I’d say as a younger kid [00:05:30] who couldn’t speak any English, I was [00:05:35] probably quite an introvert to begin with because [00:05:40] I couldn’t communicate. And that was my biggest barrier at the start, and [00:05:45] I didn’t really have many friends. I then I think some people [00:05:50] probably felt sorry for me. Started making friends with me and then I had little friendship group when I went into [00:05:55] primary school. So I wasn’t, you know, the most popular kid. But I just had a few little friends and was probably [00:06:00] a bit of an introvert to begin with. Um, and, uh, and then I think as I was able to [00:06:05] be a bit more confident and communicate, I kind of came out of my shell a little bit more and, you [00:06:10] know, took it from there. Really. Um, but yeah, that’s probably how it began, was just [00:06:15] just quite an introvert to begin with.

Payman Langroudi: And did your parents say [00:06:20] anything about dentistry, or did your dad want you to be a doctor or what was what was that [00:06:25] journey like?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Um, so, so I always wanted to be in something scientific, like doctor, that [00:06:30] was probably my goal. Um, and I said to my dad, from a young age, you [00:06:35] know, I want to be like you. I want to be a doctor. And he was all my parents were very supportive about that. But [00:06:40] they’re not. My parents aren’t the typical, you know, Egyptian parents who are very pushy into a certain direction. They’re [00:06:45] very happy for me to do anything. My sister, she’s a fashion designer in Sydney, so they’re [00:06:50] very happy to do whatever, whatever we want, really. But then I did my work experience in medicine [00:06:55] and it was in my dad’s hospital, and I’m pretty sure my dad, [00:07:00] um, told all his colleagues that he wants me not to do [00:07:05] medicine because of the anxiousness. So every time I go to a hospital placement, they’ll be like, oh, what do you [00:07:10] want to do? Medicine. And I’d just be like, no, thanks. Uh, they’ll be like, no, no, don’t do [00:07:15] medicine. Do dentistry instead. So they were kind of trying to point me towards dentistry [00:07:20] as a career and, um, yeah. So I started looking about dentistry more. [00:07:25] Did some work experience in dentistry? Didn’t really like it, to be honest. And then one [00:07:30] of my friends was a surgeon and did some work experience and I [00:07:35] loved it. I thought it was incredible.

Payman Langroudi: So before even applying.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Before applying, I loved [00:07:40] Max. I thought it was just incredible operations that they did. And it was just I loved it. Um, [00:07:45] and I then went to dentistry with the intention of doing max packs, and [00:07:50] then eventually just loved dentistry. And that’s why I’m doing it, is because I just [00:07:55] realised that I really like dentistry as I was doing it. And you were in Birmingham? Yeah, I’m in [00:08:00] Birmingham now.

Payman Langroudi: No. You studied in Birmingham?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah, studied in Birmingham. Studied in Birmingham. Um, and then. [00:08:05]

Payman Langroudi: Did you not, did you not think, hey, I’ll go a bit further away than Birmingham.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Um yeah [00:08:10] I did, I did, I applied to a few dental schools, uh, Bristol, Liverpool, [00:08:15] Leeds. Um, and then at [00:08:20] the time, I think the selling point was Birmingham had a brand new dental school that was being opened.

Payman Langroudi: I remember.

Andrew El-Khanagry: So. [00:08:25]

Payman Langroudi: We used to do a composite course. There were the first hands on course in the whole building.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah, it’s a beautiful [00:08:30] dental school. So that was probably the biggest selling point, I thought.

Payman Langroudi: So you never saw the old one. [00:08:35]

Andrew El-Khanagry: So we were the last cohort to see the old one. So we were the last to be in the old one and then go [00:08:40] to the new one afterwards. Oh, really? Um. And, uh. Yeah. No, it’s the old one. Yeah, it’s [00:08:45] an interesting building.

Payman Langroudi: Lift.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Right? Yeah, yeah. Um, and then the new one is [00:08:50] just a massive difference. So it was mainly just because I thought it was a new facilities. It looked good. I didn’t really know much of what I [00:08:55] was getting into, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: Did you find it challenging or like when you got to the course?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah. [00:09:00] Dentistry. Dentistry is difficult. Um, first year we didn’t really know what we [00:09:05] were doing, to be honest. And I remember first, my first set of exams, I failed [00:09:10] and I was it was a bit of a wake up call. I was like, okay, I actually need to need [00:09:15] to actually do some work. But luckily I lived with one of my good friends and he had some [00:09:20] brilliant set of notes and just managed to. He gave me all his notes and survived [00:09:25] with his set of notes. Really? Um, so yeah, we had luckily in dental [00:09:30] school, we had a really good group of friends who we’d all support each other, give each other notes, [00:09:35] help each other out, and we all got through eventually. But yeah, dental school wasn’t wasn’t a breeze. [00:09:40]

Payman Langroudi: That’s not the usual story you hear about dental school, is it?

Andrew El-Khanagry: No, I guess it’s not. And yeah, I [00:09:45] think I’m very lucky. We had a great group of guys. We’re all. We’re all still very close.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:09:50] you were all in the same trouble.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah, yeah, we got up [00:09:55] to a bit of mischief, but at the same time, it was, uh, we all support each other and got through as well, [00:10:00] so. Yeah. No, it was good. It was good. A good group of lads. And, uh, one of them just got married in the summer. [00:10:05] Uh, we’re all his best men and stuff. Yeah. No, it’s a it’s a good group. And we got we got through. [00:10:10] We got through. But it wasn’t easy. I’m very practical hands on. So Birmingham is. I think [00:10:15] at the time I’m not sure if it is now, but it had the most exams out of any dental [00:10:20] school in the country. So it wasn’t my kind of learning. But [00:10:25] we just got through like like everyone else. Really. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And your first job.

Andrew El-Khanagry: So, [00:10:30] um, I went to Manchester. It was, uh, [00:10:35] North Manchester area called Middleton. Um, and. Yeah, just wanted to go [00:10:40] see a different city for a year. And yeah, it was good. I had a great PhD. Yeah. [00:10:45] For PhD, yeah, for PhD I had a great. Is Matthew Whittingham he owns a few practices up [00:10:50] in up in the north north Manchester area. And he just got me stuck in. He [00:10:55] he does implants. He’s really good at surgery. And he just said you know feel free to [00:11:00] to tackle whatever you want. And I’m in the room next to you. So I’ll, I’ll [00:11:05] be there to help you out. So it just got me really focussed on hands on. At the time when I graduated, [00:11:10] it was the middle of Covid. So yeah, it was the times where [00:11:15] like an hour long.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Um, but for me that was a good thing because it just gave me time to sit [00:11:20] down and and do every everything step by step. Really.

Payman Langroudi: So your final year [00:11:25] was Covid year?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah, we we graduated at the literally we did our written [00:11:30] finals and then they told us COVID’s about to there was rumours of [00:11:35] this Covid thing.

Payman Langroudi: So we’ve done everything.

Andrew El-Khanagry: We’ve not done the seen and unseen exams? [00:11:40]

Payman Langroudi: No, but the clinical part.

Andrew El-Khanagry: We’ve done the written finals. Yeah, we’ve done most of the clinical. Yeah. [00:11:45] So we didn’t really get affected by the clinicals as much. And then we took us all into a room and they were like, [00:11:50] look, you’re all gonna have to leave tomorrow. Um, we’ll don’t know what’s gonna happen with your seen and unseen [00:11:55] exams, but we’ll take it from there. And to be honest, at the time, we just thought it would be a two week holiday, so we were all like, great, we’ll [00:12:00] see you guys in two weeks. We’re off. You know, everyone’s off on holidays and stuff. Um, and we all went [00:12:05] and had a year photo and after that year photo everyone went [00:12:10] home. And I think someone must have had Covid the whole year got wiped out with Covid. So it was that [00:12:15] year photo I think destroyed probably half the year. But it was it was good. At least we got there because [00:12:20] that was the last opportunity we’d had. Eventually we wouldn’t have had another opportunity otherwise. But yeah, [00:12:25] we graduated in the middle of Covid. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Um, so yeah, [00:12:30] I did my PhD year, um, and then worked there for, uh, [00:12:35] one year, stayed on. Yeah. So after. Yeah. So after, um, I did [00:12:40] my Ph.D. year, they offered me a job. Um, and I was in a really nice, supportive [00:12:45] practice. Um, just your typical NHS practice. Um, but [00:12:50] very supportive man. North Manchester is quite high. Needs area. So doing a lot of treatment. [00:12:55]

Payman Langroudi: It’s actually an interesting question, right. Should you or shouldn’t you stay on in your PhD practice. [00:13:00] Because I remember as a child, like not you’re at [00:13:05] PhD. Yeah. And I specifically wanted to switch practices. [00:13:10] Okay. To see another way of doing things. Yeah. And my boss was this [00:13:15] wonderful guy, Nick Mahindra. Still a still a friend of mine. And I remember him telling me that [00:13:20] you’re making a mistake actually makes a lot more sense to stay on so you can see your [00:13:25] own work and all that. And I remember being this sort of silly boy thinking, no, no, [00:13:30] no, he just wants me because I’m so brilliant. So but I want to see something else and then deciding [00:13:35] to move on. Yeah. Um, that said, I moved on to a fully private practice [00:13:40] then after that. So. But the question of should you or shouldn’t you stay on? I’ve changed my mind on it now. [00:13:45] I think you should stay on.

Andrew El-Khanagry: It’s. Yeah, it’s it’s a really good point. I don’t know if there’s a right or [00:13:50] wrong answer. I mean, I, I stayed on because I thought it was really supportive and I [00:13:55] didn’t I didn’t feel like I was good enough to to go anywhere else. And I’d be embarrassed to have gone [00:14:00] to another practice at that stage.

Payman Langroudi: As in, you owed him, like that sort of feeling.

Andrew El-Khanagry: No, as in [00:14:05] as in, no, I don’t think.

Payman Langroudi: You know, if you were good enough, I.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Don’t think I was good enough to go nowhere else. So at least they knew my abilities [00:14:10] at the time. And, um, and they were like, yeah, we [00:14:15] know where he’s at. We can carry on with him kind of thing. But then I think as the year went, I became [00:14:20] more confident. I to be honest, I got myself a camera really early on and because of the whole [00:14:25] Covid situation, I had time to take photographs and take it really helped, really do things step by [00:14:30] step because we had the our AGP appointment at the time. Yeah, yeah. And it just meant that [00:14:35] even if I had a simple occlusal filling or something, I would be able to [00:14:40] make proper dams, take photos, just take my time with everything. So that helped. Just. [00:14:45] Yeah. So for me it was great. And then by the time I went into my first year associate, the [00:14:50] world was going back to normal. So things sped up naturally. So [00:14:55] yeah, to be honest, I thought, I thought for me, for me it was it was really good until kind of something [00:15:00] happened and then it kind of was a bit of a wake up call to move [00:15:05] into, move into private practice. Um, just had like a bad experience with the patient and then. [00:15:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. No.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Go on. Um, it was just it was just a situation where I [00:15:15] had a lady come to me. It was a new patient, and [00:15:20] the first thing she opened up with was, I’m in the middle of a lawsuit, and. [00:15:25] And I got knocked over from my bike. There was a problem with the bike that she [00:15:30] was riding, and she smashed her front two teeth. And that was pretty much the situation. [00:15:35] So she’d come to me to fix her teeth, and she wanted to know how much it costs, because she wants to do it privately [00:15:40] so that she can, you know, charge.

Payman Langroudi: The insurance company.

Andrew El-Khanagry: As part of the lawsuit that she was doing as well against [00:15:45] the company that did the bike.

Payman Langroudi: The company that made the bike?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah, apparently it was some sort of bike fault or something. [00:15:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andrew El-Khanagry: So I had obviously I was just out of pretty much just out of PhD [00:15:55] year and I had my alarm bells already ringing, but I just had to tackle it on as, [00:16:00] as you.

Payman Langroudi: Did your treatment plan.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah, I did my treatment plan. She needed a root canal, one tooth [00:16:05] and some composite fillings. That was pretty much it, but I was I was nervous, [00:16:10] I was really nervous. You know, when you have that patient and they’re coming in and you’re just.

Payman Langroudi: Alarm [00:16:15] bells are ringing.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah. And you don’t feel comfortable. Some patients you can you feel comfortable treating some [00:16:20] patients I feel like you’re it can be a bit on edge. Yeah. So she was one of those where [00:16:25] I felt like I was I was on edge, and, um. Yeah. So I [00:16:30] brought her in for the root canal, and the canals were slightly sclerotised because [00:16:35] of the trauma, but to be honest, I ended up perforating the [00:16:40] root. The root canal. And then that made it more of a problem, because then I had [00:16:45] obviously told her what had happened and it was my mistake. We had to refer on. But my [00:16:50] yes and the team were really supportive. But that whole period was really it. Anyone [00:16:55] that knows me knows I’m quite a laid back, but it made me quite anxious. [00:17:00] And for the first time in my life, I’d probably say I had anxiety and I didn’t really [00:17:05] know. I’ve heard people say I have anxiety and you.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t [00:17:10] know what it meant.

Andrew El-Khanagry: I didn’t know, I didn’t know what it was. I really didn’t know, I didn’t understand. I understand if you have an exam, you [00:17:15] can be a bit anxious for the exam, but I didn’t know. It’s like a constant [00:17:20] state. You wake up, you sleep, you’re anxious. So that was probably the first time.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:17:25] happened? What happened?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Um. Nothing really. I thought she’d end up suing me and my career would be over. [00:17:30] But we referred her on. We paid for her private endodontist. [00:17:35] And, um, he did a really good job. [00:17:40] Sealed it up. Did the root canal and everything was. She was cool. Yeah. I’ve heard nothing [00:17:45] back since Touchwood, so?

Payman Langroudi: Well, even so, you had anxiety like that?

Andrew El-Khanagry: No, no. So that [00:17:50] at that point, yeah, I think you.

Payman Langroudi: Weren’t sure what was going to happen.

Andrew El-Khanagry: I think I realised at that point as well because [00:17:55] I, I was there was a lot going on. I was, I had a target, I was [00:18:00] on 6000 UDA straight out of PhD year, and I just felt [00:18:05] like there was a lot happening every single day. And I, I couldn’t the [00:18:10] workload and the pressure of doing things really quickly.

Payman Langroudi: You couldn’t do everything exactly as you wanted. [00:18:15]

Andrew El-Khanagry: Exactly. And I’m a bit of a perfectionist as part of my nature. So I then thought, [00:18:20] I need to I need to switch up in some way. I didn’t really know what to do, but I [00:18:25] knew one of my colleagues. He Was in a salaried position in a private practice. So [00:18:30] I basically just said, picked up the phone, called him and told him I’m like, [00:18:35] mate, what’s what’s going on? How have you got this job? And he said, this [00:18:40] is how the job works. You. It’s it’s two owners. They own a few private practices [00:18:45] and the salary for a year. And they they send you to loads of courses. And then [00:18:50] eventually after that year, they’ll offer you an associate position in the practice. But they want to train their associates [00:18:55] in a certain way, take them to certain communication courses. Uh, certain [00:19:00] clinical courses just make so you can understand what it’s like to work in a private practice and be of a certain [00:19:05] standard, and then they’ll offer you the job. And I was like, okay, great. And he’s like, actually the actually [00:19:10] got position right now they’re looking for. So yeah. Look [00:19:15] it I said I was like, okay, sign me up. Where is this. And then took it from there. Really luckily got the job and and [00:19:20] ended up in how.

Payman Langroudi: Was it, how was that year. Was it a year or two.

Andrew El-Khanagry: It was one. It was one year. It was. It [00:19:25] was a big for me. I’m a firm believer that you have to invest [00:19:30] in yourself. So I took a big cut in terms of my just what I was earning. [00:19:35] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How much was how much were they paying?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Uh, it was 40 K. 40 K for the year.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Yeah. [00:19:40] And they were paying for your courses.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah. So that’s the thing. So this was they were paying for a course and probably the courses altogether [00:19:45] probably worth about 15 K. So they’ll send you out.

Payman Langroudi: Which could go and list them, list the courses that they [00:19:50] sent you.

Andrew El-Khanagry: It was the Tipton, the Tipton Restorative course.

Payman Langroudi: Tipton.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Um, [00:19:55] it was the Invisalign course.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Ashley. Letter. The communication [00:20:00] ones. Uh, someone’s in, like, cerec all this kind of stuff. So just the selection of courses [00:20:05] that they used to do. Um, and then they would, we’d have almost like weekly tutorials [00:20:10] as well go through cases. So you’d work as a normal dentist, but anything that’s more difficult or more complex, they’ll sit [00:20:15] down with you, give you tutorials and stuff. And yeah, it was a good year. Um.

Payman Langroudi: You feel like you [00:20:20] upskilled, though?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah, I think I think the biggest thing upskilled was probably [00:20:25] communication. I, uh, I went to Ashley later in my PhD [00:20:30] year and to be honest, I, my es took me there because he had like a free [00:20:35] ticket and I went with him. And I at the time I was a bit just [00:20:40] like naive. I didn’t really see the importance of communication and all these things [00:20:45] and even working in the practice afterwards. My associate job in in Manchester, [00:20:50] I’ll bring a patient in and probably have like a two minute chat. Just. Hi, [00:20:55] how you doing? The weather looks nice and take from there. And then [00:21:00] when I went into private practice, they told me that there’s a the, [00:21:05] the check-ups should be half an hour and at least ten minutes should be just getting [00:21:10] to know the patient.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andrew El-Khanagry: And I really struggle with that. I didn’t know what to say for ten minutes. Um, [00:21:15] and that and then I remember looking at one of the older associates, I [00:21:20] sometimes go and see what he’s doing, and he was doing a lot of implant work at the time, and [00:21:25] his communication skills were incredible. And he would and every patient would [00:21:30] sign up to a pretty big treatment plan, and all he would do would [00:21:35] just get to know the patient. And at the end he’d be like, you know, this is what we need to do. The patient would be like, okay, cool, let’s [00:21:40] that sounds great. I trust you. And they were happy to go for it. Really. So I think that’s. [00:21:45]

Payman Langroudi: Such an important thing here because look, first of all, number one, the difference between a [00:21:50] good endodontist and a great endodontist is communication 100%. Yeah. [00:21:55] So even if we’re talking something super specialised like endo. Yeah. So there’s definitely [00:22:00] and I’ve told this story before but we’ve, I’ve picked surgeons for my wife based [00:22:05] on their communication skills. Yeah. For major operation. You know because of the communication [00:22:10] skills it’s that important. Yeah. Like you’d imagine what you do is you look at the surgeons, you [00:22:15] know, like track record or whatever. Of course we looked at that. But but the final [00:22:20] decision came to the guy who was just the nicest. Yeah, that’s the first. But [00:22:25] the second thing is I left dentistry in 2012 and only [00:22:30] when you stop do you realise the bits you loved and the bits you hated. Yeah. And it turned out the [00:22:35] bits I love were those conversations, you know. So like, the most important [00:22:40] thing from my perspective was the conversations with the patient. You know, that was the [00:22:45] thing that gave me the most value in my life that I don’t have right now. That’s why I got a podcast. Yeah, [00:22:50] but it’s.

Andrew El-Khanagry: True, though. It’s amazing how much you learn.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andrew El-Khanagry: When you talk [00:22:55] to someone. Yeah, I, you know, patients that I’ve talked to some patients. And once [00:23:00] you get to know them and they get more comfortable with you. Yeah. They come out with some incredible stories [00:23:05] that you you wouldn’t have otherwise heard unless you took the time to get to know them. And I [00:23:10] sometimes and.

Payman Langroudi: The diversity though, that diversity, the important thing is right now I speak to loads [00:23:15] of dentists. Yeah. Of course. But the diversity I remember my last private job. There was this guy [00:23:20] who’d started a bank in Switzerland. Yeah. Yeah. So there was the conversation with that guy. Yeah. [00:23:25] Or some guy was the top journalist in the feet for, you [00:23:30] know, like a particular part of the world, you know, emerging markets. Wow. Yeah. Conversation with that guy. And [00:23:35] then the conversation with some lady who just had her second kid and had to leave her banking [00:23:40] job for the sake of the argument. Yeah. And what was really interesting to me was I took over my wife’s list [00:23:45] at one point. Okay. And I used to come home from work and say, oh, Mr. So-and-so, isn’t it crazy [00:23:50] that he’s head of Brazil for the ft. And she was his dentist for [00:23:55] like, years and didn’t know that. Didn’t know that. Yeah. But she was having other conversations [00:24:00] with him. Yeah. Yeah. And so what you learn from patients is beautiful. Watching [00:24:05] families come through and kids grow up, and all of that stuff is [00:24:10] super beautiful. And you do go through the trials and tribulations with them as well. Families divorce, [00:24:15] marry, you know, all sorts of things go on.

Andrew El-Khanagry: I think I think that’s actually that [00:24:20] doesn’t happen enough where I feel like my generation, the younger generation of dentists, [00:24:25] we do jump around quite a bit. Yeah. And there isn’t a lot of dentists. [00:24:30] Exactly. You know, for example, I remember my. Yes. And I’m sure he’ll stay [00:24:35] on. He’s been in that area from when he pretty much graduated and I’m sure he’s [00:24:40] got two practices there. So he’ll he’ll stay there till he retires. And he’s well known he’s [00:24:45] the dentist in the area. Whereas now the practice I’ve been to recently, there’s been so much jumping [00:24:50] around. A lot of patients come to me like, oh, you know, the third person I’ve seen in a space of two years [00:24:55] before, I used to see so-and-so, and they were my they were my dentists for [00:25:00] 30 plus years. So I feel like patients are starting to also it’s also starting to impact patient [00:25:05] care as well.

Payman Langroudi: Of course.

Andrew El-Khanagry: You know, it takes a while for them to build trust with the dentists especially, I feel. [00:25:10]

Payman Langroudi: Plus those, you know, those, uh, porcelain veneers you cut three years ago that look so amazing. Yeah. [00:25:15] Yeah. In nine years time, it won’t look so amazing and so interesting to see your own [00:25:20] work over the long term. Like, you know, people like Tiff Qureshi’s only only worked in one practice [00:25:25] the whole of his career. 30 years. Yeah. To to see, you know, even that [00:25:30] mod that you thought you did so well. Yeah. Yeah. Fail. It really shows you what [00:25:35] works and what doesn’t in the same way as when you look at photos of your own work. Yeah, but this is over a period of time [00:25:40] as well.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Well, it’s a test of time. Yeah. You’ll be able to see your failures, and I’m [00:25:45] just. I’ve jumped around a fair bit, but I’m trying to. I’m. I’ve [00:25:50] come to realise the importance of staying in somewhere long enough to realise your, [00:25:55] you know, your your where you’re failing and where you can improve. So that that [00:26:00] for me is the main thing. But photography helps me appreciate these little things on a, on a, on a, on a [00:26:05] more of a nuances. Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got a question.

Andrew El-Khanagry: For.

Payman Langroudi: You from the associate [00:26:10] perspective. Yeah. Yeah. Well you’ve you’ve worked in how many practices [00:26:15] now do you think?

Andrew El-Khanagry: So um, so I’ve [00:26:20] worked in two practices before my current jobs.

Payman Langroudi: So three. [00:26:25]

Andrew El-Khanagry: So, so I mean for for practice altogether. I work, work between two practices now. So when [00:26:30] I left my, my other job, I’m now kind of split between two practices. [00:26:35]

Payman Langroudi: But I have worked in four practices altogether.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Four practices in yeah, five, four, five [00:26:40] years.

Payman Langroudi: So quite interesting question. Right. Of of the the management [00:26:45] of those four businesses and what the way those people manage [00:26:50] their businesses mean to you the associate. Yeah. And and [00:26:55] the question of like what was really good practice. Something like if you ever opened your own practice, you’d [00:27:00] definitely put in place and what wasn’t and what’s, what’s what important things. You know, from [00:27:05] the associates perspective, is it as obvious as I need a nurse and I need to buy my [00:27:10] materials? Or have you got like more nuanced? Because what really interests me [00:27:15] is a dental practice should be a very similar thing everywhere you go. But it’s not very, very different. The [00:27:20] way people run their practices.

Andrew El-Khanagry: It’s not it’s really hard to gauge. I feel I feel like I’ve been I’m [00:27:25] the idea was when I left my PhD practice to go into my practice in Birmingham, one that was [00:27:30] salaried. I’d be there for enough time to know what I’m doing. And then at that point, you [00:27:35] know, five, six years, then by practice myself or see what I want to do with my career at that stage. But [00:27:40] I they ended up selling that practice. So those owners, they, [00:27:45] they originally began as part of the practice and were dentists in the practice and [00:27:50] then they became purely business side of things. So I was exposed, exposed to that side of dentistry [00:27:55] where you had a practice owner who just saw it as a business. [00:28:00] And as a young associate, I, I didn’t [00:28:05] particularly I didn’t like that because I felt like I was just a number. And if you weren’t performing, [00:28:10] then, you know, you just have to. You’d be replaceable with another associate [00:28:15] who can come in and bring in higher earnings than yourself. Um, then [00:28:20] I, I’m now working in another practice where the owner is also he is [00:28:25] very active part of the dental community. He’s a very good [00:28:30] dentist himself. He used to work on Harley Street and he’s, you know, very nurturing, [00:28:35] you know, mentors me quite a lot. So I would for as as a young [00:28:40] associate, that’s the kind of practice I would want to go into, especially in the private world. Someone [00:28:45] I don’t need someone to babysit me. I might go for the odd bit of advice here and there, [00:28:50] but it’s someone in the in, you know, in the clinic next door. We can go and pop your [00:28:55] head in and they can give you some advice or help treatment planning a complex case or, you know, tell you, oh, this [00:29:00] material is really nice. We recommend that. Or what materials do you like? Do you want us to buy it for [00:29:05] you? So those are the main.

Payman Langroudi: Things happen that last piece. What materials do [00:29:10] you want?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah, yeah. So I remember.

Payman Langroudi: When you want something new, do you have to, like, worry that they’re not going to get it for [00:29:15] you?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Well, there was always that worry, especially if you’re asking for some expensive piece of kit. I [00:29:20] like to just get something expensive I’ve seen on Instagram or something because I want to try it out. [00:29:25] I don’t always get yes, they’re happy to buy it, but in a lot of cases, if I can justify [00:29:30] the reason or if I’ve got a case in, then they’re more than happy to buy it. I don’t feel I’m [00:29:35] not the sort of person to go and be like, look, I want all this equipment on my shelf and then [00:29:40] I’m not going to use it. If I’ve got the case, and I think then it’s fine to ask for a certain piece of equipment. [00:29:45]

Payman Langroudi: I agree, and I think that really is the hack, isn’t it? Like if you’re an associate and by the [00:29:50] way we do it, we have it on our mini smile makeover course. Yeah, we get one set of associates who come in and say, [00:29:55] I am not going to buy anything. The practice has to buy it for me. Yeah, yeah. All right. [00:30:00] Fine. One way of thinking about things. We’ve got another associate who immediately just buys everything and doesn’t [00:30:05] even consider what the practice is or isn’t doing, what’s the best material for himself. And and [00:30:10] then you get one type. The advice I always give is that one that, you [00:30:15] know, if you want your boss to buy it for you, get a case. And no [00:30:20] boss is going to say no when there’s a patient waiting for the treatment or, you know, potential [00:30:25] more patients waiting for the treatment. Although some bosses still say no in that [00:30:30] situation. And so that’s what I’m asking about, you know, best and worst practice. Um, [00:30:35] what’s your bugbear? Let me let me give you my example. My bugbear. Yeah. When I was an associate [00:30:40] was the notion of I couldn’t treat friends and family for free. Okay. In [00:30:45] some practices, it was fully my decision. I could do whatever I wanted. I used to treat my nurses [00:30:50] dad for free. Yeah. And no one, no one had a problem with that? Yeah. Other practices. [00:30:55] There was rules and regulations around who you could or couldn’t treat for free. That [00:31:00] was my bugbear. What was your. What’s yours? Like? What’s a peeve of yours [00:31:05] in these jobs that you’ve done?

Andrew El-Khanagry: I guess it’s the my, my I [00:31:10] guess my pet peeve is so a lot of these practices, they want to keep everything in-house. [00:31:15]

Payman Langroudi: So labs.

Andrew El-Khanagry: This sort of thing. Oh referral referral to treatment. Referral [00:31:20] pathways. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So so you want to refer to a particular guy. [00:31:25]

Andrew El-Khanagry: So say for example, I want to refer to a particular guy because I know him. I know they’re good. Of [00:31:30] course they’re a specialist. In some cases I would refer that patient out [00:31:35] and I might get a call or a text being like, why didn’t you refer it to one of our associates who’s, [00:31:40] you know, got a specialist interest or something in this? Why did you send that case out? They might poach [00:31:45] that patient from us. So I think in private practice, which was, again, something [00:31:50] I didn’t really understand when I was just going into that private practice world. You know, some practices do, [00:31:55] I guess, poach patients and all this. I don’t I don’t know how much that goes on, but I, [00:32:00] I never came across that all the patients are referred out. There were to really experience great dentists [00:32:05] who would do the treatment that I referred out for, and then send the patient back to me. Well, I.

Payman Langroudi: Think it’s less the [00:32:10] poaching, more that I’ve hired this endodontist to come in two days a month to fill him up, kind of. Yeah, [00:32:15] that kind of potential angle. There’s a there’s an existing associate who’s got interest in endo or [00:32:20] whatever potentially.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah. And and it was, it was I’d have a lot of things [00:32:25] I’d want to refer out get blocked because, because, [00:32:30] because.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Would hurt in-house.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andrew El-Khanagry: And that for me after a while it did kind [00:32:35] of frustrate me because I couldn’t do the things I wanted to do with this, with this dentist I wanted to do with, for [00:32:40] example, if I wanted to do more cosmetic case and I wanted to send it to a periodontist [00:32:45] for some gingival surgery before beforehand, I wouldn’t be able to. I’d have to keep [00:32:50] it in-house. So yeah, it did. It did impact me. And also I feel sometimes patient care [00:32:55] as well. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I guess that’s probably my biggest pet peeve generally speaking [00:33:00] wise. Apart from that, everything. They were happy for me to treat friends, family and things like that.

Payman Langroudi: Free [00:33:05] of charge.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Um, I did. No one came anything to say. [00:33:10] No one said anything to me, so I assumed they were okay with it. But I [00:33:15] did, I did. So. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Nice. So then [00:33:20] at what point in this journey did the charity thoughts come up?

Andrew El-Khanagry: I’ll [00:33:25] be completely honest. It was never intended to be a charity. Um, we [00:33:30] I had it was kind of coming towards the end of Covid and again, [00:33:35] I was thinking about potentially going to the private dentistry and things. I knew there was a lot of a lot of friends, [00:33:40] um, in the Egyptian community who were also, uh, dentists and could support each [00:33:45] other through things. So I contacted one of my mates and I was like, let’s make a group chat and [00:33:50] just put in all the people that we know, all the Egyptian dentists that we know, and we can [00:33:55] all help each other out. See? Just see if we can help each other, you know, get contacts and, [00:34:00] you know, just network in that sense. And he just said, great, great [00:34:05] idea. We made a group chat and then someone, an older dentist, he’s he’s [00:34:10] called Rafiq. He works in London. He’s got two practices in London. Um, he contacted us and he [00:34:15] said to us that he does a project in Egypt. He goes every year, does some volunteering work, [00:34:20] and it would be nice if we can get some more dentists involved. And obviously [00:34:25] I was I’m originally Egyptian and I’ve always wanted to go back at some point [00:34:30] and do some work over there. My dad, he always used to do charity work in Egypt. [00:34:35] My granddad, he was also a big businessman in Egypt, and I remember [00:34:40] going down the streets when I was younger with him, and everyone would know him because everyone in the streets would come [00:34:45] and say hi, because he’d helped lots of local businesses.

Andrew El-Khanagry: So it was always kind of part of my kind of upbringing [00:34:50] is to to do some charity work because it’s really kind of fulfilling. Um, so I thought it was a great idea. [00:34:55] And then we ended up trying to raise money for a mobile dental unit in Egypt. So [00:35:00] we raised. I think it was about £50,000. We raised that money. How? [00:35:05] Just through, like GoFundMe and word of mouth. Literally. [00:35:10] We didn’t do any fundraising events at the time. Just we spread the word out throughout, [00:35:15] you know, all the Egyptian community. And money just came in. Um, we didn’t [00:35:20] really put I’ll be honest. We didn’t really put much effort apart from just a few things on Instagram at the time. We [00:35:25] had a like a charity page set up for just for the, for the, uh, mobile [00:35:30] unit. We didn’t have a charity at the time. And then, yeah, we raised the money and then we had [00:35:35] we ended up forming a charity afterwards because we were like, we can do this in other countries and help out other places. [00:35:40] And then the charity grew. More people came in who supported us. Um, [00:35:45] we have in our trustees now just going to. So we got Raffi and John, who we [00:35:50] started off with, and then Cristine, Mariam who came in afterwards. And now we’ve got a social [00:35:55] media app. Um, Georgina and Robbie as well. So the team’s growing [00:36:00] more and more, and we’re going to more locations now. So.

Payman Langroudi: So tell [00:36:05] me about that then. The a typical location. [00:36:10] Like what happens. How long does it last. What’s the story? You buy one [00:36:15] of these vans. Does the van keep on working the whole year?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah, it’s a good question. So for example, [00:36:20] we we obviously we’re not based in Egypt, so we need to find some partners in Egypt [00:36:25] who can look after the van and also use it when we’re not there. So we’re linked with a charity in Egypt for example, called [00:36:30] we’ve got also basically means Egypt without disease. It’s an Egyptian [00:36:35] charity. And in Namibia we’ve got another big project. In Namibia we’re part we’re also working with [00:36:40] the health ministry in Namibia. We’ve got contacts with the chief dental officer there. And when we go to Namibia, we’re [00:36:45] part of the Ministry of Health kind of group going out to different areas and they’ve got their own van. So we’ve [00:36:50] not bought a van there, but we they basically ask for money to just [00:36:55] for maintenance of the van to buy equipment for the van. So we tried to go to location and see what [00:37:00] they already have and support them in either building it up or if [00:37:05] they need just money for equipment and things like that. And then we can [00:37:10] once they’re once they’ve got the money, we’re ready. We can send out groups to volunteer when we’re [00:37:15] not, when we’re not using the van. For example, in Egypt, they then take it out for missions [00:37:20] all the time just for Egyptian people. Christian, Muslim, everyone.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but so go on, [00:37:25] explain to me you bought the van.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah, we bought.

Payman Langroudi: The group that goes from here. Yeah. [00:37:30] Is that. Was that like a distinct two week thing, or is that. Yeah.

Andrew El-Khanagry: So for the group from here, for example, it’ll [00:37:35] be ten days. We do.

Payman Langroudi: Who pays for them. They do themselves.

Andrew El-Khanagry: So yeah. All so all these missions [00:37:40] are paid for themselves.

Payman Langroudi: By the dentists.

Andrew El-Khanagry: The dentists and the we [00:37:45] then ask for donations for the maintenance of the van. So every time we go on a charity mission, we have to self. [00:37:50] It’s almost like a double hit on the dentist. So they’re not earning income when they’re there, and also they’re [00:37:55] paying for the mission themselves. So hats off to all them. And yeah, they’ll go and do.

Payman Langroudi: They do a money [00:38:00] raising effort. Each dentist themselves or do they just pay it out of their pocket or how does [00:38:05] it work?

Andrew El-Khanagry: I’m not sure if they do individually.

Payman Langroudi: We are not involved with that side.

Andrew El-Khanagry: No, we mean we’ve [00:38:10] the volunteers just seem to be happy. I mean, we’ve got we’ve got a volunteer list on our charity website. We’ve got hundreds [00:38:15] of dentists in the country who want to get involved. So we just send out an invite to a group, [00:38:20] whoever first signed up, and then everyone just seems to be happy to pay for it [00:38:25] out of their pocket. I think maybe some of them do, maybe within their own communities do a little fundraising project. But [00:38:30] generally speaking, I think everyone just pays. It pays for it themselves.

Payman Langroudi: And typically how much is the cost?

Andrew El-Khanagry: So [00:38:35] around I’d say typically around 2000 1000 to £2000. So for example Egypt [00:38:40] costs about 1000. Namibia is a bit further away. And after we do the mission stuff we try and do a few [00:38:45] fun things in the country. We’ll do safari, we’ll go visit a few different areas. So between [00:38:50] 1 to £2000 for for a mission.

Payman Langroudi: And how many people turn up.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Um, [00:38:55] so around I’d say around ten. Ten. Usually enough for a minivan of people. [00:39:00]

Payman Langroudi: So kind of fun.

Andrew El-Khanagry: It is. It’s good fun. It’s really good fun.

Payman Langroudi: And and then for how many days [00:39:05] is the thing?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Ten days.

Payman Langroudi: Roughly how many of those days are actually treating patients?

Andrew El-Khanagry: I’d say half [00:39:10] the days. So for example, in Namibia, we did about four and a half, five days of treating patients one day there and back, three, [00:39:15] three days of just leisure and evenings after you finish a day of work, evenings you’re [00:39:20] going out for a meal, getting to know everyone. It’s it’s it’s good fun. You know, a lot of our [00:39:25] volunteers, as soon as they finish the mission, they sign themselves up for the next mission because they want to come [00:39:30] back more and more because they find it rewarding. But also they just enjoy doing dentistry [00:39:35] because you’re just doing raw dentistry. You don’t have to worry [00:39:40] about litigation and all the stresses of working in the English system. You’re [00:39:45] going and helping people and there’s something quite, you know, uplifting about the fact that you can just [00:39:50] go in and you can actually come back and you feel invigorated in the job. You enjoy the job more because you’re [00:39:55] just going and helping people, which is at the end of the day, what what we’re what we’re about. So, [00:40:00] yeah, a lot of people enjoy the work purely because it’s not stress [00:40:05] and enjoy the dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: And the work itself is what more extractions. So [00:40:10] yes.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Our focus is two things. Um, prevention and [00:40:15] urgent care at the moment. So we, we normally with the children we do things like [00:40:20] oral hygiene, fluoride varnish and things like that. And then with the adults we [00:40:25] again do with oral hygiene. And if they need any emergency treatment, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll do a lot. We do a [00:40:30] lot of extractions, extirpations fillings, things like that. Most of the work is extractions [00:40:35] because of the we’ve only got one van and that’s two dentists that [00:40:40] can work in the van. But we can set up chairs everywhere really, and help as [00:40:45] many people that need teeth taken out as possible.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, look, it’s an interesting thing. [00:40:50] I’ve been to Egypt and some of the guys I’m hanging out with, Egypt, they’re living [00:40:55] seven star lives in Egypt. So you look at countries like Egypt, yours and mine, there [00:41:00] does tend to be a big difference between the rich and the poor and massive discrepancy. Yeah, massive. I mean, [00:41:05] some of the stuff I’ve seen in Egypt, it was like it could have been in Hollywood, man. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing [00:41:10] things. Yeah. Um, have you heard of, like, the idea of, like, giving [00:41:15] directly that? I mean, let me give you an example. My my son, uh, was [00:41:20] on a long flight from Malaysia, and suddenly we thought, oh, he might have DVT [00:41:25] because he had a swollen ankle or whatever. And then he had to fly to Egypt the next day. [00:41:30] Yeah. So we said, oh, we better do a Doppler ultrasound [00:41:35] thing on him. Took him to the Wellington Hospital down the road from here. We paid [00:41:40] £550 for the Doppler. Yeah. And they said, um, maybe whatever they said. [00:41:45] Oh, if it happens again, if he gets pain when he’s in Egypt, just go and do another one of those, okay? He [00:41:50] went played football, got pain. And so we better take him to hospital. They took him to Egypt, [00:41:55] did another Doppler ultrasound in Cairo.

Payman Langroudi: And we were like calling the parents, [00:42:00] saying, oh, listen, we want to pay for this. And they were saying, no, it’s okay, don’t worry. We were [00:42:05] like, no, no, no, we want to pay for it. In the end, she turned around. She said, look, it was £12, right? That’s all it was. [00:42:10] That’s how much it cost. Yeah, yeah. So now with all of that in mind. Yeah. An [00:42:15] extraction in Egypt. The cost of that? Yeah. If money is the problem, might be [00:42:20] £12. Yeah. The cost of flying this dentist over. [00:42:25] I know he’s self-funding. I know he’s self-funding. Yeah. It’s £2,000. Yeah. [00:42:30] For that 2000, you could have done 200 extractions for the sake [00:42:35] of the argument. Do these thoughts come into play like that? Because I definitely understand [00:42:40] it from the dentists perspective. Right. From the dentist perspective, it’s nice to keep it real. [00:42:45] It’s nice to do charity work. There’s pleasure in giving. It’s like giving a present [00:42:50] is nicer than getting a present. I get it from the dentist perspective, but from you now you’re. This thing [00:42:55] is growing. And almost, if you think of it from a pain perspective, [00:43:00] how can I alleviate the maximum amount of pain? Have you had thoughts on the way [00:43:05] that I’ve just described?

Andrew El-Khanagry: I think yeah, definitely. And it’s a really good thought. And also I’ll answer [00:43:10] that. But also another thought comes into my head is it’s all well and good doing all this stuff in different countries and travelling, [00:43:15] but we’ve got a lot of need in England as well. Very true. And we’re a UK based charity. Very [00:43:20] true. So why don’t we also put the money here and use it here in regards to [00:43:25] the you know you’re right. Obviously it makes more sense [00:43:30] to give that money to, you know, the people directly and they can use it. But [00:43:35] I feel like there’s in a lot of countries when you go there, there’s [00:43:40] a lot of miseducation.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andrew El-Khanagry: In terms of the people themselves, [00:43:45] they they don’t want to go to an Egyptian dentist. And I’ve worked a lot of Egyptian dentists. [00:43:50] They’ve trained to a really high standard. They’re great dentists, but they they will literally just [00:43:55] suffer. And they know that there’s a group going out from the UK, and there will be inundated with people coming [00:44:00] in for, for treatment because it’s free.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Because because it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Free. So you’re saying it’s Western. [00:44:05]

Andrew El-Khanagry: But also, you know, relative. Exactly. I think it’s more due to the fact that there are a lot of people, [00:44:10] you know, they have enough money to do the dentistry, for example, had this really interesting [00:44:15] conversation. Well, I was in Egypt. I was in Aswan, which is south Egypt, [00:44:20] about three weeks ago now doing another mission. We just we just came back and [00:44:25] we’ve got a very good dentist who works with us on these missions [00:44:30] to help translate and help settle the stuff before we get there. And I was just having [00:44:35] a conversation, quite frankly, with him about money. And I said to him, how much do you charge for [00:44:40] a root canal? And this is bearing in mind this is. He’s telling me in Egyptian pounds. I [00:44:45] think the conversion rate at the moment is like one to 1 to 60 ish, roughly. So one, [00:44:50] one stone to 60 Egyptian. And he said it’s about 400 Egyptian [00:44:55] pounds.

Payman Langroudi: A fiver.

Andrew El-Khanagry: For a root canal.

Payman Langroudi: £5 roughly, [00:45:00] roughly speaking.

Andrew El-Khanagry: So it.

Payman Langroudi: Is canal.

Andrew El-Khanagry: For root canal. I’m like.

Payman Langroudi: My goodness.

Andrew El-Khanagry: I didn’t want to say it [00:45:05] to him, but I was thinking in my head, obviously I didn’t say it because I felt really bad, but I was thinking in my head, that’s [00:45:10] how much I charge. Probably more. Well, I definitely I know I charge more for a mole render in [00:45:15] Sterling.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah, yeah.

Andrew El-Khanagry: The discrepancies is massive. But again, [00:45:20] these patients don’t don’t don’t go to them. They’ll they’ll wait till a group from abroad [00:45:25] come. And for some reason they’ll trust your judgement more. And he might tell the patient, [00:45:30] look, you’ve got a massive infection in extraction. And they’ll just keep taking antibiotics until I [00:45:35] go over and say the same thing, and they’ll be like, okay, take the tooth out. So there is a benefit to us for us coming [00:45:40] in and also for prevention. We’re also they don’t the Egyptian dentists there, they [00:45:45] haven’t been taught prevention like we’re taught here, how an [00:45:50] Egyptian patient would go to dentist when they when they have pain, but they don’t have the six month [00:45:55] recall of check-ups.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andrew El-Khanagry: So us trying to introduce [00:46:00] that preventative system in Egypt on a it’s a [00:46:05] it’s a microcosm really. It’s a small in a very small kind of way in these little communities. [00:46:10] I think over time I think that will help. I hope it will help.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:46:15] But then again, you could pay people on the ground to go into 100 schools. [00:46:20] Yeah, we could, we.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Could 100% could. It’s there’s definitely an element of, you know, [00:46:25] it’s it’s good fun when we’re there to help. And there’s an element of self gratification [00:46:30] that comes with it 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I mean, listen, I’m not judging. I think it’s beautiful. [00:46:35] It’s better to do this than go to a week to Ibiza and party from, [00:46:40] I guess from the energy perspective. Yeah, but by the way, make sure you get to a [00:46:45] birthday party as well. Yeah, I’m not discounting.

Andrew El-Khanagry: I’ve not been to Ibiza.

Payman Langroudi: Actually.

Andrew El-Khanagry: I [00:46:50] need to go there at some point.

Payman Langroudi: How many of these trips have you personally been on?

Andrew El-Khanagry: I’ve been on on [00:46:55] four trips so far.

Payman Langroudi: Go on, tell me the places.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Three Egypt, one.

Payman Langroudi: Namibia to [00:47:00] Namibia. Because Namibia sounds like a brilliant place for a holiday.

Andrew El-Khanagry: It is. It is great for a place [00:47:05] for holiday. I every time I come, when I come back and tell everyone about it, I was like, just go for a holiday. Don’t. Don’t you know [00:47:10] if you want to go for the charity, great. But if you don’t go for the charity, just go explore the moon. It’s a beautiful country. [00:47:15]

Payman Langroudi: And is there a big, rich, poor divide there? There are a lot of poor people there.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Just generally a lot more poor people. [00:47:20] I mean, you go to the capital, Windhoek, you’re expecting a capital [00:47:25] city, you know, it’s just a few homes. Maybe it’s [00:47:30] a very unpopulated country. It is.

Payman Langroudi: You know, like.

Andrew El-Khanagry: It’s a beautiful country, [00:47:35] very clean country.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andrew El-Khanagry: That’s what it’s it’s, you know, they’re really they [00:47:40] have a lot of they look after themselves. Right. Yeah. A lot of pride in the country. And [00:47:45] yeah, we had a great time. We went and explored the dunes. They’ve got some of the highest dunes in the world. Um, but [00:47:50] the, the thing, the one, they’ve used it for a few film locations where the sand meets the sea. And we [00:47:55] had a safari. We did a lot of charity in between. Um, but. Yeah. No, it’s a it’s a beautiful mission, [00:48:00] beautiful mission. And people want to go for charity or just go for a holiday. It’s a great it’s a great country. [00:48:05] But going back to that point about the UK, I feel like obviously [00:48:10] everyone in our charity, we’re doing this, we don’t get any [00:48:15] money out. We’re all dentists. So for example, I’m just an associate dentist. We’ve got one of the trustees as a consultant oral [00:48:20] surgeon. We’ve got practice owners, you know, everyone just giving their time to try and grow the [00:48:25] charity, help out as many people as possible independent of race, culture, anything. Um, [00:48:30] but Recently, I personally I’ve started saying, you know, I [00:48:35] think it’s all it’s all well and good doing something.

Andrew El-Khanagry: And it looks really good on social media and [00:48:40] everything. And I think we are helping out a lot of people, but it’s also nice to do something in the country. Yeah. So [00:48:45] I’ve we’re it’s right in the beginning of the talks. But you know charity called crisis. They do a lot of homeless [00:48:50] work. And I feel like in our in in the UK right now, there’s a massive problem with just [00:48:55] access to healthcare to homeless people. So we’re in the early stages [00:49:00] of talking, but we’re trying to sort out preventative program for them. And that’s something in the UK, and that’s something [00:49:05] where the money can easily access and we can divert our funds there and help out as many people as possible right here [00:49:10] in the UK. And a lot of our volunteers, they they want to help, but they don’t want to pay £2,000 [00:49:15] and go abroad. They might want to get in the car and just go help someone you know nearby. [00:49:20] So that’ll give us the opportunity to help out a lot of people in in the country, which which I think is [00:49:25] really important as a UK based charity.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good idea. Crisis to Christmas thing don’t they. Where [00:49:30] Dentists can.

Andrew El-Khanagry: They do. They do a lot. They do already work with dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andrew El-Khanagry: We’re hoping we can. [00:49:35] We can support a lot more, a lot.

Payman Langroudi: More. So and what are the other locations that you haven’t [00:49:40] been to yourself but the organisation has.

Andrew El-Khanagry: So we’ve got also [00:49:45] Nigeria opening up as well. We’ve had one mission there so far really, um, really remote community, which [00:49:50] is only accessible by car certain times of the year because there’s a floodplain that goes [00:49:55] across it. So between I think it’s October to February, you can access that that region. [00:50:00] And they have there’s like poverty and there’s like poverty [00:50:05] this this is the super poverty where they’ve never seen a brush [00:50:10] or they’re the kind of communities which are so remote. They they don’t know anything about dentistry [00:50:15] or dental care. So that’s that kind of level of poverty where they, they need [00:50:20] just access to anything. And they’re, they’re, you know, they have the sugar cane there and they just kind of like [00:50:25] chew it and things. So the need for dentistry. There is high, [00:50:30] but they have no education. They no knowledge of dentistry [00:50:35] at all. So that’s one of the areas. And we’re hopefully going to buy a mobile [00:50:40] unit and try and access that area more often. And then we got contacted by [00:50:45] some dentists in America who wanted to be involved in the charity. And then they’ve told us they [00:50:50] have contacts in South America. So Peru and Bolivia, and we’ve had a mission in Bolivia [00:50:55] and hopefully in December, it’s still in talks, but we might be able to do a mission in Peru as well. [00:51:00] So a few different locations are starting. But I wanted just to make sure we’re established in these locations [00:51:05] that we’re in to begin with, to make sure that the prevention work stays, [00:51:10] because again, it’s all well and good doing the urgent care and and helping these people out. But the prevention [00:51:15] is what lasts. And I want the charity to be really focussed on that as well.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:51:20] mean, are there several of you that are like day to day running [00:51:25] it? Yet.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Um, as in, we’re all dentists. We all chip in like [00:51:30] I’m. To be honest, I probably don’t do very much. We’ve got a great team, and they do a lot. So there’s [00:51:35] the day to day running. We have we have an accountant. Apart from that, [00:51:40] we’re all dentists. We don’t have. I think we need to start hiring people, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah, but how many dentists are [00:51:45] actually doing work like outside of the turning up and treating like, I don’t know, you get [00:51:50] a call from Nigeria saying we need X. How many dentists are involved [00:51:55] on the trustees?

Andrew El-Khanagry: There’s uh, 6 or 7 of us actively [00:52:00] involved.

Payman Langroudi: Um it’s interesting dude. Yeah, because anything that’s purpose led [00:52:05] like this, the results, the return on the work is so much bigger [00:52:10] than when it’s not purpose led. And that’s a lovely thing, right? Yeah. And [00:52:15] but I think it’s amazing if whatever endeavour you do, you [00:52:20] switch it in your head as your purpose led? [00:52:25] Yeah, because I’ve got a friend. He sells, uh, beef. Yeah. [00:52:30] Yeah. He could say I sell cows, I sell beef. He could think I feed [00:52:35] people. You know, like these bigger sort of. I’ve always. I’ve always had trouble with it. With the teeth [00:52:40] whitening. I’ve always in my head thought. Yeah, making rich people’s teeth whiter is just not very inspirational. [00:52:45] Yeah, but but you could you could say, hey, I bring joy and happiness and love to people [00:52:50] and confidence like you could.

Andrew El-Khanagry: There’s always two ways to look at something, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but my point is it’s actually quite a good [00:52:55] thing because purpose is such a powerful thing. It’s true. It brings people together. Like these guys are [00:53:00] all dentists. Yeah, they’re busy doing their own things and yet organising such so many [00:53:05] things. It’s not an easy thing to organise something across the world with dental equipment. [00:53:10] It’s not an easy thing to do, but you’ve done it.

Andrew El-Khanagry: I think it’s true. I think it works with anything really. I feel as soon as money [00:53:15] becomes a factor in the decision making, I mean, even in even dentistry [00:53:20] like that one year I was salaried in the private job. I was enjoying my dentistry so much, so much [00:53:25] more. And as soon.

Payman Langroudi: As I sell anything.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Exactly. And then I would just. I’d love it. And [00:53:30] then as soon as the money came into it, then you. I feel like the enjoyment always gets knocked down [00:53:35] a little bit because it’s less purpose, it’s more money orientated. But obviously, you know, it’s something [00:53:40] you need. Every dentist needs to think about at the end of the day. But I think it’s having that balance of purpose. [00:53:45] And, you know, also, you know, trying to earn a living as well.

Payman Langroudi: Looking at your [00:53:50] Instagram, you’re quite like good at sort of the minimally invasive adhesive stuff.

Andrew El-Khanagry: I’m [00:53:55] okay. I’m all right. I mean, it’s just yeah, [00:54:00] I, I think my I’ve said I’ve done the courses, but I’ll be honest, [00:54:05] the best course I’ve ever done is the course of Instagram. I got access to the [00:54:10] best dentists in the world, and it’s like I’ve got, you know, a chairside [00:54:15] view of what they’re up to. The amount of things I’ve learned from these dentists, [00:54:20] you know, people like you’ve had in like, like George. Um, and so [00:54:25] many other dentists in America are the ones that do all the, the biomimetic type things. I’ve [00:54:30] learned so much. My biggest source of education has been Instagram since graduating.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. [00:54:35]

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah, and I think I was part of that community from really early on. So I as [00:54:40] soon as I pretty much got left PhD, I started my Instagram and, you know, just [00:54:45] put my face out there. I was producing pretty crap work, but I was happy posting it. [00:54:50] And I think when, you know, a dentist who’s well established sees that a younger person is trying [00:54:55] to put the effort in, they will they’re more than happy to help out. So I would always, you know, pop [00:55:00] a question to to one of the dentists and I’d always be surprised when the answer. But the [00:55:05] amount of help I got with along the way of, you know what? How do you do in this situation? How do you treatment plan this or what material [00:55:10] do you use? You know, I got helped so much by some of these bigger dentists. And [00:55:15] you know, it’s got me to my position now, but, you know, it’s nowhere where I need [00:55:20] to be. You know, there’s still so much more improvement and things that I can make. But it’s been my biggest source of education more [00:55:25] than any course.

Payman Langroudi: Where do you see yourself going clinically? Because [00:55:30] five years out is a funny time. You’ve sort of figured out the basics. [00:55:35]

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then you’ve got the whole next level. And, you know, definitely [00:55:40] enjoying dentistry is about getting better at dentistry. It’s hard [00:55:45] to enjoy it when you don’t get better at it. Yeah. Where do you think you’re going to go next? I mean, are [00:55:50] you are you thinking clinically you’re going to go more indirect, more full mouth, [00:55:55] more? Are you going are you going to specialise? Maybe. Any thoughts around that or do you want to open a practice. [00:56:00] Like what are you thinking?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Um, it’s it’s a difficult one. I, I struggle, [00:56:05] I struggle with this. To be honest, it’s I, I don’t think I’ll specialise. I did [00:56:10] my old college exams because I thought when I graduated dental school, I need to specialise. I was taught by, you [00:56:15] know, Professor Ian Chappell, who’s He’s a really, really good guy. Yeah, really [00:56:20] good guy. And, um. Yeah, I thought I’d definitely specialise in perio. And [00:56:25] then I’m now in a position where I’ve done more prosthetics because of my training. Prosthodontics. [00:56:30] So I think I’m going to focus more on I’m enjoying at the moment the more [00:56:35] prosthodontics type treatment. So I feel like my focus is kind of going towards towards that. [00:56:40] But at the moment I’m I do pretty much all aspects of dentistry apart from, you know, [00:56:45] I do restorative endo.

Payman Langroudi: Do do do.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Do I do endo. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The perforation [00:56:50] didn’t put you off.

Andrew El-Khanagry: No, I still managed to do it. Still managed to do it. I do, I do end and it’s [00:56:55] got better a little bit better since then. Um, but obviously you still refer the things that are [00:57:00] crazy, but I’m more than happy to tackle anything. I love oral surgery, so [00:57:05] at the moment I’d say I’m a bit of a general restorative dentist, but I’m starting to [00:57:10] slowly focus more on the prosthodontic side of things, the fixed prosthodontics. But [00:57:15] we’ll see. We’ll see where my career takes me. I mean, again, also like business. [00:57:20] I’m thinking, you know, practice ownership at some stage and things like you. Are you at some stage? I’m nowhere. [00:57:25] I don’t know where I’m going to be based yet, but when I’m when I know at that point I’ll probably [00:57:30] reassess. But it’s nice being an associate where you can go and do good quality dentistry [00:57:35] and not worry about the stresses of practice ownership, which have, you know, I’ve seen firsthand [00:57:40] from some of the owners how stressful it can be.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s a funny thing because you end up becoming [00:57:45] an associate after maybe five years like you, you find [00:57:50] places where you are happy. Yeah. Um, there’s not much in life which is [00:57:55] a better job than, uh, a happy associate. Yeah. But happy associates [00:58:00] make good money. You can, um, do the work you want to do and all that. But [00:58:05] there does end up coming a point for most people where whether it’s because we’re just all programmed [00:58:10] that way or whether there’s a niggle. Yeah. Yeah, let’s imagine [00:58:15] me. My niggle might have been I want to do free work on whoever I want to do free work on, and my boss [00:58:20] wasn’t letting me. And then eventually you think, oh, I want this patient journey and I want that, and then say, [00:58:25] I want to open a practice. I want to open a practice. Yeah. Have you, have you got views on like [00:58:30] what that practice would be like already or not?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Um, [00:58:35] it’s a difficult one. I mean, I I’ve got an idea. [00:58:40] I’m. I’m not. I’m not certain. I know I’d want [00:58:45] to have it like an upscale type practice, because that’s the sort of treatment I enjoy [00:58:50] doing the most. Um, similar to maybe, like Ash Palmer’s type practice. That’s the kind [00:58:55] of practice.

Payman Langroudi: What an Essex.

Andrew El-Khanagry: That one. Yeah. That that that kind of practice. And he’s you [00:59:00] know Ash Palmer is, you know, a great dentist top of his game. And you know, he, he actually came [00:59:05] and spoke in our charity ball last time. He’s a great he’s a great a really great guy. But yeah that [00:59:10] kind of that kind of dentistry is probably.

Payman Langroudi: What do you mean by that? I think I’ve been there. Very [00:59:15] cosmetic. Yeah, very veneer based.

Andrew El-Khanagry: It is, it is it’s [00:59:20] it’s almost like, you know, I’ve not been to the practice myself. From what he’s told me, it’s more like it’s. [00:59:25] You’re entering more like a spa. Almost.

Payman Langroudi: It’s from the decor perspective. [00:59:30]

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah. From from the decor. From the patient experience. The patient journey. It’s just [00:59:35] it’s not just about the dentistry. It’s the whole feel of the practice. But [00:59:40] I think the question is, is, you know, at what stage is [00:59:45] enough? Enough as a dentist. You know, like I said, being an associate, it’s great. You’re [00:59:50] earning a good living and you’re doing well. Yeah. Why push it? Why [00:59:55] do you need to keep going and have that? Why? Why do a lot of us as [01:00:00] dentists have that niggle where we want to just keep pushing to have more and more and more when [01:00:05] we’re perfectly comfortable earning quite a good living as being an associate. It’s a difficult one. What? What [01:00:10] stage is enough.

Payman Langroudi: I think the most sort of inspirational answer to that is [01:00:15] to live up to your potential.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because it definitely isn’t inspirational [01:00:20] to think the next watch, the next car, the next holiday. Yeah, that’s not very inspirational. No. [01:00:25] Um, but to live up to your potential is like, for instance, just on this charity thing. What [01:00:30] is the potential of this? Yeah. And if you really lived up to your potential, what [01:00:35] could you make of this as just talking about the charity thing could be this giant thing. [01:00:40] It could be. It could be that, you know, every dentist does a week and imagine the [01:00:45] size of that. You know, like if every single dentist did that amazing thing. Same [01:00:50] thing with practice, right? Yeah. But then what’s correct and what isn’t and [01:00:55] what metrics make you happy? Like, my absolute hero dentist is Andrew [01:01:00] Darwood. Okay. Yeah, I’ve had him here, I’ve had him here. And he had one extra [01:01:05] ordinary practice and several other businesses, you [01:01:10] know, imaging business and so on. But one extraordinary practice. Yeah, I think he had one other [01:01:15] but but one extraordinary one. That was his one. Yeah. And then I’ve had people sitting here with, [01:01:20] you know, mother of 342 practices. Yeah. And, you know, still [01:01:25] still still going, you know, wants to get to 5050. Her number. Yeah. [01:01:30] Yeah, yeah. It’s interesting to know what it is. You know.

Andrew El-Khanagry: I think I think that’s a great point. I’ve [01:01:35] never thought about that, but I think that’s what’s going on in the back of my head. You don’t want to have unfulfilled [01:01:40] potential or you feel like you can give more. Do more. Yeah. I think it’s part of our [01:01:45] wiring is is, you know, dentists in general. You have to be of a certain character [01:01:50] to be a dentist to, to push for more.

Payman Langroudi: But then also at what cost? That’s the other interesting [01:01:55] thing. Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, there’s, there’s sacrifice in anything [01:02:00] worthwhile. Yeah. Generally, you know, almost like for me, it’s [01:02:05] almost like they go together Sacrifice and worthwhile stuff. Yeah. [01:02:10] And so what? Sacrifice? What level of sacrifice? You know, like, I, I’ve [01:02:15] been in situations where I have missed a best friend’s birthday because I was at the dentistry [01:02:20] show. Yeah. For the sake of the argument, or because I was on a plane somewhere or didn’t. [01:02:25] So that’s one level of sacrifice. Yeah. Someone else wants to, you know, take his kids to school [01:02:30] every day and bring them back every day and be the, you know, present father. And, you [01:02:35] know, someone else wants to be an international lecturer. Yeah. Yeah. And and, you know, I [01:02:40] was talking to Jason Smithson. He was saying. He was saying if you want to be an international lecturer [01:02:45] and you want to keep a wife and family, you can’t have a practice. You [01:02:50] know, you always say and look after yourself, your own health and all of that. You can’t you can’t [01:02:55] have a practice. But that’s the limitations he’s put on it. Yeah. Yeah. It’s very interesting [01:03:00] to to sort of figure out what in life, you know, live up to your potential as a [01:03:05] thinker. Yeah, that means you might not want to work five days a week. You might want [01:03:10] to work three days a week because you want to think for two days a week. It’s an interesting thing.

Andrew El-Khanagry: It’s an [01:03:15] interesting one. And I feel like everyone’s got their own balance. And I’m in a position now where I’m [01:03:20] five years out and I’m. Those kind of questions are starting to come in. Come into my head. Yeah. [01:03:25] So I’m I’m trying to figure it out. And I’ve had a lot of these conversations with my friends and [01:03:30] very different answers. Some want to just be an associate. They never want to buy a practice. [01:03:35] Some are really interested in the business and they want to buy it. Some want to leave dentistry. So yeah. [01:03:40] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How many like that?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Um, I’d say minority. Minority. But there are a few who, [01:03:45] you know, they’ve said, yeah, I want to leave dentistry or I want to open my own business or [01:03:50] do something else, like.

Payman Langroudi: What do you do?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Um, one of.

Payman Langroudi: Them. I haven’t decided yet.

Andrew El-Khanagry: One of [01:03:55] them? Yeah. It’s just there’s nothing in particular they’re doing. I mean, a few of them, like scrubs [01:04:00] companies, and they’re just doing scrubs, and they’re just something still Dental related, [01:04:05] but they just want to find a way to to get out of the clinical dentistry, [01:04:10] I guess. They don’t they enjoy. They enjoy being in the field, but not doing the clinical [01:04:15] day to day side of things because of a bad experience, or because they just wanted [01:04:20] to be able to work away from home, things like that. So yeah, that’s, that’s [01:04:25] that’s the main, the main reasons I’ve come across.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the darker [01:04:30] part of the pod. Okay. You kind of already told me. You already told [01:04:35] me one situation that that that caused a problem for you with that patient. The, [01:04:40] um, endo that went wrong. But we like to talk about mistakes so [01:04:45] that we can all learn from each other’s mistakes. What [01:04:50] comes to mind when I say clinical error? What what clinical errors have you been through and which [01:04:55] ones sort of did you learn from and what can we learn from it?

Andrew El-Khanagry: So [01:05:00] I mean, I’ve done I’ve done a fair share of my clinical errors, but that one [01:05:05] was definitely up there. I’ve had.

Payman Langroudi: Well, let’s go to that one then. What [01:05:10] was the error? The perforation itself. The the.

Andrew El-Khanagry: The perforation. And I feel like [01:05:15] that perforation is the is the practical error. But I feel like the error [01:05:20] on like myself is the pressure put myself under. And [01:05:25] I think that’s what it affected me the most is not really [01:05:30] the perforation because the patient ended up being fine. I was in a really good, you know, really supportive practice. [01:05:35] It was my PhD practice and they helped me get through it, but it was the pressure put myself under [01:05:40] to be in this position where I was so anxious all the time. I mean, it only [01:05:45] lasted about a month, but I it I remember that tough month. I remember [01:05:50] that month, you know, it was it wasn’t like people have been through a lot tougher things. You know, the bigger scale things. No [01:05:55] one’s going to die. Dentistry and the day. We’re lucky to be in a profession where it’s very hard to do things [01:06:00] that could go seriously wrong. But it was. It affected me because [01:06:05] I thought I could potentially lose my job. And it really it really bothered me that, you know, she was already going through a [01:06:10] lawsuit. She’s that kind of person who can, you know, will happily put a lawsuit against, [01:06:15] you know, bike company. So she could easily do one on me for doing a mistake, [01:06:20] which is fair enough.

Payman Langroudi: So on reflection, what was the error going ahead at all? Or so what? [01:06:25] When you think about it.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah, I guess I guess the right thing I should’ve done is probably referred that on to a specialist. [01:06:30] The root canal was closed. And, um, then after they’ve done the root canal, just do the composites at [01:06:35] the end. That probably would have been a better approach, especially I was in my first year as an associate, but I was so used [01:06:40] to just cracking on and getting my ES to help me if I needed help, [01:06:45] that I guess I probably got a bit too confident.

Payman Langroudi: I think if you don’t know what you don’t know, right?

Andrew El-Khanagry: You don’t. [01:06:50]

Payman Langroudi: You know, the first time you do anything. So maybe that was the first time you were up against the Sclerosis Canal. [01:06:55] You know, you don’t know. You just say, okay, that’s what it is. Let’s [01:07:00] start working.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s a beauty to that because again, you can you’ll end [01:07:05] up tackling some things where, you know, and you might get lucky and get.

Payman Langroudi: You’ll never learn if you don’t push [01:07:10] a little bit outside. That’s the thing.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Where the lines. It’s hard to know. It’s hard to know. [01:07:15]

Payman Langroudi: But another one.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Um, I mean, the one most recent I could think of was. [01:07:20] The thing is, since working in private, I’ve had the luxury of doing things, taking my time. So there’s nothing. [01:07:25] I wouldn’t say there’s anything crazy that happened recently, but the. Where [01:07:30] I’ve had a patient who’s come in again, a red flag should have been ringing complaining of his old dentist. [01:07:35] Things like that. Wanted a bridge on his, uh, on his lower tooth. Yeah. Um, we did the [01:07:40] bridge. He then, uh, then devitalised he had to have [01:07:45] a surgery straight after, like a surgery on his arm. Oh. Um, and basically, he [01:07:50] was in pain for a lot of the post-op period and definitely, [01:07:55] definitely felt when he was by the time he saw me, he was, you know, angry to say [01:08:00] the least. So that was quite a difficult patient management situation. But [01:08:05] like you said, you have to put yourself in the patient’s position. They’ve come in for a procedure. [01:08:10] Yeah. Obviously you’re warned of the risk of loss of vitality. But [01:08:15] as a patient who’s had that treatment, you got to see it from their point of view. So we [01:08:20] dealt with appropriately. We did the root canal everything. It’s all sorted now. But at the time that was quite a difficult [01:08:25] patient management situation. It’s about trying to keep it was difficult for me to keep composed [01:08:30] and calm when someone’s clearly very angry and they’ve got a lot to say. Like shouting yeah, well [01:08:35] this emails, phone calls, even to the receptionist shouting at the receptionists. Obviously [01:08:40] we got him. I got him in. I call my identity. Got him in literally as soon as I can. I think on the same day as one of [01:08:45] the calls we managed to get him in, you know, extirpated as soon as we can, then brought him back in for the rest of Root Canal. [01:08:50] And we could have. So we dealt with it patient management wise, actually really well. But it’s more [01:08:55] the communication.

Payman Langroudi: So the error there was the communication in not telling him that. That was one of the possible.

Andrew El-Khanagry: I [01:09:00] guess not making it. Yeah. Not making it clear enough to him. Again. We do the [01:09:05] forms, they sign it. But you need to be I’ve since that point I’ve been extra [01:09:10] clear with the risks.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s so interesting isn’t it? Because you are, [01:09:15] you are. But the next man who that hasn’t happened to isn’t right. Hopefully. That’s. [01:09:20] I guess that’s why we’re asking the question on the pod.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah. And and again [01:09:25] again younger dentists, they get a bit of a pet peeve is I feel like a lot of [01:09:30] us will just go through every single risk to cover ourselves. And a patient come in for some, simple [01:09:35] treatment might end up being put off by going through ridiculous risks that the chances [01:09:40] are will never happen. Yeah. At what stage do you go, uh, you know what? [01:09:45]

Payman Langroudi: That’s the art. The art of dentistry instead of the science.

Andrew El-Khanagry: The intricacies of how to [01:09:50] communicate properly. Yeah. And you just learn that by, I by, I guess just.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ever had toothache? [01:09:55]

Andrew El-Khanagry: Myself, luckily, no.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s. I can’t tell you how awful [01:10:00] it is. I mean, it is awful. It’s much worse than you. They. We [01:10:05] think, as dentists. I had toothache once, and I was walking down the street. [01:10:10] The pain I could see it was about to come again. It was about to come. The pain was so [01:10:15] severe that I had to just go into, like, this shopfront and just. Just because it comes [01:10:20] in waves of massive pain, like awful pain. The worst pain you’ve ever. You know, we [01:10:25] haven’t had children yet, but you know what I mean? The worst. So imagine this guy was in hospital [01:10:30] and his tooth was hurting more than his arm.

Andrew El-Khanagry: He’s recovering from surgery as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:10:35]

Andrew El-Khanagry: I understand the frustration.

Payman Langroudi: So mad.

Andrew El-Khanagry: It is. It’s difficult.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a good story. I like that one. [01:10:40]

Andrew El-Khanagry: But we got through. We got through. It’s. It’s one of those where you just got to try your best [01:10:45] and get through. It definitely didn’t help much, to be honest. But it’s one of those.

Payman Langroudi: Indemnity comes [01:10:50] in when when there’s a major situation. I don’t think either of these two were a major situation. [01:10:55] Um, I’m asking some new questions. Let’s [01:11:00] see where you go with these.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the best lecture you’ve ever been to? Best [01:11:05] moment of, like, what comes to mind when I say.

Andrew El-Khanagry: So [01:11:10] it’s part of my undergrad [01:11:15] training. Uh, professor Ian Chappell, he did this. He [01:11:20] would get a few select students, and we’d do, like a special study module where he would [01:11:25] teach us basically microsurgery and regenerative dentistry with dogs and things like that. [01:11:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and we’d start off each session where he’d give us a tutorial, then we’d go out and [01:11:35] do the actual treatment on patients. And seeing someone like himself [01:11:40] at the top of his game, he gave us some of the in those small group tutorials. He gave us some of [01:11:45] the most incredible lectures about perio and about his cases [01:11:50] and, you know, to the stage where I left wanting to specialise in Perry [01:11:55] after that. So, you know, he, you know, some seeing someone like himself who’s an [01:12:00] incredible dentist, really at the top of his game was the most, probably the most inspirational, [01:12:05] inspirational, inspirational things I’ve seen.

Payman Langroudi: So an interesting thing, that special study module they do at Birmingham, [01:12:10] I’m not sure if they do it other places, but Depeche, who does our mini smile makeover, he [01:12:15] he he was on the special study module with the late, great Louis Lewis.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Exactly. [01:12:20] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Mckenzie. And that’s where it all came from. You know, I.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Was lucky enough to get trained by [01:12:25] by Lewis McKenzie. Were you? Yeah. And. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What a great guy.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Great great man. And, um. [01:12:30] Yeah, his legacy lives on. He’s he’s a lot of us who went to Birmingham [01:12:35] would have come across him at some point, because even if you didn’t get taught by him, he would lecture as well. [01:12:40] And, um, yeah, he inspired a generation of us. Really?

Payman Langroudi: Next [01:12:45] question. What’s the course you’re desperate to do.

Andrew El-Khanagry: A [01:12:50] lot of courses out there, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: You don’t have [01:12:55] to even name the course. It could be the course on something like that. Like what’s the. Where’s your next training?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Probably [01:13:00] the direction I’m heading is in my kind of [01:13:05] the prosthodontics kind of field is probably more towards full mouth rehab type courses. So I know there’s a lot of [01:13:10] good courses. Doctor Devin Patel does one as well.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a good one. Devin [01:13:15] does a good one.

Andrew El-Khanagry: I’ve not, I’ve not.

Payman Langroudi: It’s like a two year, um, [01:13:20] fully mentored. And he’ll look at your cases and everything. Um, [01:13:25] and I think considering it’s two years, it’s actually a good price as well. [01:13:30] Yeah. Yeah. But then your other choices are things like spear and choice.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah. [01:13:35] Yeah. I mean, they’re the big OGs. Commitment, right? Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, but people who’ve [01:13:40] done those courses love them. Yeah. Love them. There’s the Pankey Institute. [01:13:45]

Andrew El-Khanagry: The the one the the the the ones on the East coast. Is it or the Florida? [01:13:50] Florida?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, it is the East Coast.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Florida.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, there [01:13:55] was. Yeah, there’s I mean, there’s so many there’s so many.

Andrew El-Khanagry: There are, there are and [01:14:00] and again, it’s I tend to I’ve done quite a lot I’ve done my fair share [01:14:05] of courses now. So again I’ve got a lot of room to improve. But [01:14:10] I don’t want to be forced out. I want to actually do a bit of the stuff I’ve learned, and then we’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Got to put into practice and. [01:14:15]

Andrew El-Khanagry: Then take it from there. But yeah, at the moment, doing more full mouth rehab type stuff would be learning [01:14:20] any, uh, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m in the middle of, you know, [01:14:25] some cases where I’m doing some joint cases with some implant surgeons and things like that. So I’m in the middle of [01:14:30] a few. Um, but they’re they’re difficult. I know I’ve, [01:14:35] we’ve I’ve done my diploma in prosthodontics, so I know how to do it. It’s [01:14:40] just having the confidence to do that. That’s that’s what, that’s what with tips and training.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, that was tips. [01:14:45]

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah, that was tips. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And if, if I was to put like a, an AI through [01:14:50] all your cases, what would be the most typical case that you treat. Like what. What are [01:14:55] we talking. What kind of thing.

Andrew El-Khanagry: I [01:15:00] mean I’ll be completely honest. I’m not going to sit here and be like, I’ll do the the composite bonding and all this. I [01:15:05] probably it’s probably the general restorative case. So, you know, a patient would come in and they need [01:15:10] quadrant. Yeah. Like they need some sort of treatment. So like yeah quadrant or maybe a non [01:15:15] lay a few fillings scale and polish and then some whitening or something. [01:15:20] If, if.

Payman Langroudi: There’s whitening get in there.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah. Whitening for me it’s the it’s the pathway into I [01:15:25] do I tend to do a reasonable whitening because it’s the pathway into any uh cosmetic [01:15:30] dentistry. So I personally don’t see any I know Linda [01:15:35] Greene was a big, big, big fan of whitening as well. We we it’s a pathway [01:15:40] to anything. So Uh, any treatment plan. I’ll try and discuss the shape of the teeth [01:15:45] and try and do the whitening as well. But. But normally it’s maybe an inlay on a heavily restored tooth or [01:15:50] two, some fillings and some Perry.

Payman Langroudi: Keep it simple.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Keep [01:15:55] it simple.

Payman Langroudi: How much does that treatment end up costing?

Andrew El-Khanagry: So if we’re saying what one [01:16:00] only one one filling some maybe like 1.2, [01:16:05] 1.3 K.

Payman Langroudi: And do you think that that that cost [01:16:10] part of it is actually the reason that, you know, like I don’t know, in your population, [01:16:15] most people who trust you have access to £1,200. [01:16:20] Hence that ends up being the treatment. Like I’m sure that’s a thing, man.

Andrew El-Khanagry: I mean, [01:16:25] 100%, 100% after when you work in a surgery for a while, you know what people [01:16:30] are happy to sign up for and what people aren’t. I mean, we had so [01:16:35] we had actually a prosthodontist specialist who came into one of my practice [01:16:40] and he came in wanting to do big 3040 [01:16:45] K treatment plans. Yeah, I think he came for quite a few months [01:16:50] and didn’t do one treatment plan because people weren’t going. He was, I think [01:16:55] he was driving up from South London and he didn’t do one treatment plan because that wasn’t [01:17:00] the demographic of the area. You know, and I think personally speaking, I’ve [01:17:05] done the bigger treatment plans as well. People need to trust you before you get to that [01:17:10] stage. So, you know, doing the fillings and the inlay, you’ve built rapport.

Payman Langroudi: People trust. [01:17:15]

Andrew El-Khanagry: Exactly. So it’s I’m not a specialist. I’m [01:17:20] just, you know, a young a young associate dentist. But for me, the pathway and also [01:17:25] you can gauge a patient if they’re a decent person, you want, you want to work on and [01:17:30] do the more complex things with is to do the small treatment plan, do a few things that need to be done and on [01:17:35] and on. The tooth that’s got a big filling or a few cracks, and then you can assess the patient, [01:17:40] see what they like and take it from there if they need.

Payman Langroudi: Do you say, do you say from the [01:17:45] let’s say it’s the first time you’re meeting a patient? Yeah. Do you. Quite early on say [01:17:50] this is green, green, amber red. Like as in stuff that needs doing immediately. [01:17:55] Stuff that’s nice to have and, like long term stuff. Do you say that quite quickly [01:18:00] or do you just start with the very basic stuff and then next year say something [01:18:05] about that?

Andrew El-Khanagry: It’s a really good question. I’ve done a bit of both, to be honest. I think [01:18:10] I think the best thing to do would be to to say everything from the start. So just [01:18:15] it’s difficult when when you’re an associate becoming [01:18:20] an associate in a practice and they’ve had a dentist for 20, 30 years and they’ve been coming [01:18:25] and saying, yeah, your teeth are fine, off you go. And then you’re coming in and be like, you’ve got all these problems. And then if [01:18:30] you’re going in too hard in that sense, you’ve got, for example, advanced wear [01:18:35] and you can see that, give it a few more years and they might need root canals or teeth. May devitalise. [01:18:40] It’s all they’ve got. Undiagnosed severe perio, you know. Grade four period or something. [01:18:45] And you’re coming in hard saying you’ve got this and this and this. We need to spend, you know, ten K sorting [01:18:50] everything out or else you can lose all your teeth. They won’t trust you. They’ll go somewhere else. So I think you need [01:18:55] to kind of like, gauge it a little bit on a patient by patient basis. So [01:19:00] with some I will I will explain, you know, you need a few things. And then in the future [01:19:05] there’s a crack here not only on this tooth. Another is if they need treatment. [01:19:10] You just got to be frank with them. You’ve had primary treatment and you’ve not had your [01:19:15] treatment in some some practices have gone to, you know, a [01:19:20] lot of the the older generation, they there’s just a lot [01:19:25] of undiagnosed Perrier and things going around. We’ve had to go in as new associates, for example, a dental practice [01:19:30] who’s been inherited by new associates. A lot of these patients, I feel like have [01:19:35] been you know, they’ve not they’ve not had treatment properly [01:19:40] done.

Payman Langroudi: Supervised neglect sort of thing.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah. I’m always sceptical about, you know, saying things [01:19:45] badly you know.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what we’re talking here.

Andrew El-Khanagry: To be frank. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of, you [01:19:50] know, stage four perio that’s not been treated. And you’re coming in as a as a young [01:19:55] new associate and.

Payman Langroudi: Having to to now break the news.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Break the news. But [01:20:00] then all you hear is, you know, they were the best dentists in the world. They because [01:20:05] they’ve known them for years and they have the best communication skills which, which, which that’s [01:20:10] probably the biggest lesson is that it taught me the importance of good communication, because you can be a pretty [01:20:15] bad dentist, but if you’ve got great communication skills, the patient will love you. But it’s [01:20:20] about marrying the two also being clinically good as well. So yeah, it’s it’s [01:20:25] so shocking to me being in private practice and seeing quite a lot of supervisors neglect [01:20:30] to a certain extent.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Listen, there’s always going to be good [01:20:35] and bad in every area, right? Whether it’s private or NHS. But you’re 100% [01:20:40] right. Insomuch as we deal in trust much more than most [01:20:45] professions. Much more, I think us and car mechanics. Yeah. [01:20:50] Deal in trust. Yeah.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Honestly? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so then it comes down to [01:20:55] how can you accelerate trust so that you can, you know, get to those conversations [01:21:00] in time? Yeah. And people will be surprised, [01:21:05] man. I mean, the how clean your toilet is is [01:21:10] a big factor in, in in what a [01:21:15] good dentist you are. Yeah. And these days people are more on to it. But [01:21:20] the point is the patient has nowhere to check how good you are as a dentist. I mean, [01:21:25] Google reviews maybe, but even everyone’s on to the fact that they get managed.

Andrew El-Khanagry: 100%. [01:21:30]

Payman Langroudi: As well. Um, you know, it’s like you go to a restaurant with amazing [01:21:35] decor and then the food is awful. You know, the food’s awful because you’re eating it. Yeah. [01:21:40] But when you go to a dental practice, you have no idea whether you had amazing dentistry or poor [01:21:45] dentistry for a few years, right?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah. Yeah. What do you think? What do you think you should do as [01:21:50] a as a young associate? How would you kind of accelerate trust? Yeah. Yeah. Deal with that. [01:21:55]

Payman Langroudi: I’m really. I’m really into the notion of number one. At the very beginning, before you’ve even met the patient. [01:22:00] Phoned the patient. Okay. Yeah. So you’ve got a patient coming in on Tuesday. New [01:22:05] patient. Phone the patient on Monday yourself. Okay. This [01:22:10] is, um, doctor. Your dentist calling? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, just want to know if there’s any questions [01:22:15] you want me to to ask me before you come for your first visit? That’s great. Yeah. [01:22:20] So? So sometimes there is. Yeah, sometimes, you know, that actually talks about [01:22:25] why now? Yeah. The why now is such a powerful thing. It is that that The guy [01:22:30] can literally in that moment tell you the why now? Yeah, but generally it’s just [01:22:35] a touch point here that wow, I’ve never had the dentist himself call me before. I’ve even visited the practice. [01:22:40] Yeah, it brings things.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Breaks the anxiety. Because the patient.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andrew El-Khanagry: The first time they’ve had any communication [01:22:45] with you is when they see you in clinic. But just giving them a call. At least they’ve talked to you on the phone. They know you’re [01:22:50] a normal human being because they build this picture up. You’re going to the dentist. But yeah, you know, we’re humans, and.

Payman Langroudi: If [01:22:55] we have so many new patients that that’s hard to do, that’s a great problem to have, right? Most don’t. [01:23:00] Right. Most. You could do this. Yeah. And then right at the end after it’s all over [01:23:05] that call. Yeah. Yeah. Or after any appointment where it’s even slightly a problem. [01:23:10] That call I used to outsource that second call to my nurse. Okay. Yeah. [01:23:15] Um, mainly because she loved it so much herself. Yeah. And I think how [01:23:20] much your nurse, how happy your nurses at work is such an important point to how happy you [01:23:25] are at work. Yeah. So when I noticed my nurse the next day saying Mrs. whatever was so happy that I called. [01:23:30] I just used to leave that to her, you know, and I always found with nurses, the good thing is to give [01:23:35] them more and more important jobs. Yeah. Yeah. So for instance, when I figured [01:23:40] a nurse, I used to teach a nurse shade taking and then tell her she’s better [01:23:45] at it than I am and then let her be the shade taker. Yeah. Yeah. That thing for [01:23:50] nurses is huge, right? Because now they’re really involved in the treatment itself. Yeah. [01:23:55] Um, but then with the patient, like you said, with private dentistry, man, painless private [01:24:00] dentistry is so important, man. So important. Like, [01:24:05] that’s the injection. Like painless. Um.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Completely painless.

Payman Langroudi: Completely painless. [01:24:10] The ten minute conversation that you mentioned. Yeah, I’d say that while [01:24:15] the topical is in place. Not after the injection, the topical for ten minutes, [01:24:20] then the injection or the topical for six minutes, then the injection, [01:24:25] then five more minutes of conversation after the injection until it goes numb. That’s [01:24:30] like 11 minutes of conversation. That conversation pays off. Pays [01:24:35] off not only not only for patient, but for you as well. You enjoy that conversation. Um, [01:24:40] those.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Are three very valuable lessons, you know, I’ll let you know. I’ll call them and I’ll let you know if [01:24:45] that. If that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Anything. It will, it will. The. You’ll see what I [01:24:50] mean. Um, and then, man, you know, what is the difference between great service and good service. [01:24:55] Yeah. We we have our event in Manchester at the Edwardian [01:25:00] Hotel. Yeah. And the people in this place, man, they are just amazing [01:25:05] every time we go there. Me and my team are like, these guys are just brilliant. [01:25:10] And you know, some they’ve done something in that place. Yeah. That people [01:25:15] constantly are trying to help. And whatever you say, they [01:25:20] make it happen without any drama at all. You know, like, you might ask for a burger [01:25:25] in this place, that this place doesn’t do a burger, but they’ll take it upon themselves to go to the other [01:25:30] restaurant and bring a burger here for you. Stuff like that, you know.

Andrew El-Khanagry: It’s the staff [01:25:35] training. I mean, it’s like if you go to a really nice hotel, I remember that was probably one of the first things they I [01:25:40] think the first year, my mentor year, I think one of the first questions they asked me like, tell me about [01:25:45] a holiday you went to, where you went to a great hotel. And what a [01:25:50] weird question. I answered it, I went to, you know, this and this place, and I was at this really nice hotel and [01:25:55] the service was amazing. They were like, this is what we’re trying to do in our dentistry. Yeah. And it really stuck with me. You know, [01:26:00] unfortunately, you know, I feel I feel guilty saying all this [01:26:05] when I know there’s a lot of my colleagues who are still in the NHS. And it’s really [01:26:10] hard to deliver that in the NHS system and trying to earn money.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Of course. Impossible. [01:26:15] So it’s possible to deliver it but not. And earn money.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah. [01:26:20] And that’s and that’s the majority. The majority. So it’s it’s [01:26:25] difficult. It’s difficult for me saying all this and and it’s all well [01:26:30] and good, but it’s it’s really hard to put this into action if you’re working in NHS, you know, being in private, [01:26:35] I have the luxury where I can take the lessons you’ve taught me and put it straight into practice. [01:26:40] Yeah, but I always think about some of my colleagues in a similar position. They’ll be [01:26:45] listening to this and they’ll be like, well, it sounds great.

Payman Langroudi: Although although although in the [01:26:50] NHS you’re not so much selling trust.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: In private. Look, this is an interesting [01:26:55] question, right. When I, when you go to Starbucks, what are you buying my coffee. [01:27:00] No. You’re not buying coffee.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Oh you’re not okay.

Payman Langroudi: Because, look, the cost of a flat [01:27:05] bike, flat white in Starbucks is maybe, I don’t know, I haven’t done the sums. Shall [01:27:10] we just say 50 times the price of a Nescafé at home?

Andrew El-Khanagry: I see, okay.

Payman Langroudi: 50 times the price. [01:27:15] Like, how much is a cup of coffee at home? Like if. Yeah, I’m sure if you’ve got Nespresso [01:27:20] at home, Nespresso. It starts costing a bit more, but you know what I mean? Yeah. So is it 50 [01:27:25] times better coffee? No. At Starbucks, you’re buying convenience. [01:27:30] Maybe if it’s on your journey, you’re buying self-care. The most. I find the reason why I buy [01:27:35] this coffee from from that shop is this this little moment of me self self-soothing [01:27:40] myself, making doing something for me. Yeah. I mean, I can get the similar [01:27:45] coffee in my in my. But I just so there’s that there’s some [01:27:50] people use it as their office. Right. They literally go there and work there and you know. [01:27:55] Yeah. So there’s that side of it. Um, so by the time when you think about it, [01:28:00] when you’re buying a Starbucks, you’re buying all of those things. You’re buying convenience, self-care. It happens [01:28:05] to be coffee is the routine. That’s true. Yeah. Now, when you’re doing a crown, [01:28:10] what are you buying? What are you selling? What’s the patient buying? Yeah. [01:28:15] Most dentists start banging on about the zirconia. Yeah, but [01:28:20] the patient is actually buying an insurance product, right?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Investment long term on their teeth.

Payman Langroudi: Peace of mind. [01:28:25] Patients buying. Peace of mind. Yeah. And we all know it, right? We say if you don’t buy this crowd, [01:28:30] this awful thing will happen. You’ll break your tooth. And all the needs are in that if you don’t do, this, [01:28:35] terrible thing will happen. And we’re kind of good at that. But with the wants, [01:28:40] it’s a whole other thing, right? If you do whiten your teeth, you will be [01:28:45] confident. Yeah. Yeah. And and so that’s a that’s not a if you don’t something [01:28:50] terrible will happen. It’s that if you do something great will happen. Yeah. And it’s understanding [01:28:55] those things. Yeah. And in private dentistry we’re selling trust [01:29:00] first and foremost. It’s why it’s not like price sensitive. [01:29:05] Yeah. Like, if if you charge £1,400 for your crown, um, [01:29:10] and the next guy charges £700 for his crown, it doesn’t mean that you’ll do half the [01:29:15] number of crowns. Yeah. It doesn’t. It’s about if I trust you to 700, I’ll trust you [01:29:20] to 2900. You know, the trust is the key point. Um, in NHS [01:29:25] dentistry, it’s more access, isn’t it? Access?

Andrew El-Khanagry: That’s that’s [01:29:30] completely true. And and that’s how it felt it just. If that patient left, I’ll get another one through the door straight [01:29:35] away. Whereas in private, you really have to look after your patients. And it’s [01:29:40] all about the slow build up. They’ll they’ll tell their friends and family, yeah, I had this treatment. [01:29:45] They’ll bring them along. And it’s it’s rewarding in that sense because you’re building real relationships.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:29:50] You know, every time in any situation where there’s just another, another customer [01:29:55] waiting service tends to drop 100%. So I wouldn’t call it 100%. [01:30:00] I’d say 98% because, because, because there are there are some NHS places where they’re really doing managing [01:30:05] to pull it off. Um, and they’re pulling it off based on the private sales on the NHS [01:30:10] patients. And that’s that hybrid situation.

Andrew El-Khanagry: I’ve seen, I’ve seen those type of practices as well [01:30:15] where they will get they almost choose their patients to select getting in. Yeah, exactly. [01:30:20] And then the treatment will be private. Yeah, but the NHS would be the check would be NHS. Yeah. [01:30:25] It’s a it’s a different business model but.

Payman Langroudi: And a great one as well. Yeah. Because you can sell that practice [01:30:30] based on the NHS. Yeah. You can get finance based on the NHS contract. [01:30:35] Okay. What you’ll find is when we go we go to these things where we meet up with the corporates. A lot of the [01:30:40] corporates, the one I was telling you about 42 practices, they get all their finance based on the NHS [01:30:45] contract that they they buy. Banks don’t see that as a solid thing.

Andrew El-Khanagry: The [01:30:50] gas is sold in private. A lot of it depends on the dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Anything could happen. Yeah. [01:30:55] The marketing, the dentist, the area, the competition and all of that.

Andrew El-Khanagry: I’ve heard I’ve heard some [01:31:00] dentists. They will purposely work a lot more a few months before they sell it. Just so that. Yeah, on paper, it [01:31:05] looks like this is a whole field I have no idea about.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you’re on the other side of it. Yeah.

Andrew El-Khanagry: I’ve [01:31:10] heard the stories, so I know. Yeah. I can’t imagine how difficult it is buying a practice and all these [01:31:15] things. It’s a different a different, a different type of different stage in life, but.

Payman Langroudi: It can take a whole [01:31:20] year or so. The other important question is competition. Yeah. Like here we are, me and [01:31:25] you talking. Yeah. Someone is listening to this. Yeah. What is in competition [01:31:30] with this? Yeah. It’s a very important question. Yeah. Because I don’t think it’s [01:31:35] Jazz Gulati. Like, I don’t think there’s a guy sitting there thinking, I’m going to either [01:31:40] listen to jazz or I’m going to listen to pay. I think it’s like something totally different. [01:31:45] Like it could be. Are you listening on your drive? Someone else could watch TV instead [01:31:50] of listen to a podcast, right? And so the competition for your work as a private dentist [01:31:55] sometimes is nothing to do with dentistry. Like something totally different. You know, like it’s true. If it’s want stuff, [01:32:00] it might be, you know, a holiday or whatever, you know, flight to Sydney. Yeah. [01:32:05] Yeah.

Andrew El-Khanagry: And everyone’s got their own interests. Yeah. It’s it’s it’s completely different. I mean, I [01:32:10] personally, I would it just depends on, you know, sometimes. [01:32:15] And the good thing is I feel like you’ve all got your different niches, like, you know, jazz is very clinical, whereas.

Payman Langroudi: Is great. [01:32:20]

Andrew El-Khanagry: Whereas yours is, is more. I feel like I’ve learned a lot more about being a [01:32:25] dentist as a whole from from your podcast, because you get some incredible dentists [01:32:30] on who just I’ve learned so much about just life skills or how to deal with certain situations. So [01:32:35] as a young dentist, it’s it’s important to to hear that advice. And to [01:32:40] be honest, that’s one of those things I’ve come to appreciate again in this time of life is, you know, I [01:32:45] like I like to make I don’t like to make mistakes, but I used to hear a lot [01:32:50] of advice and disregard it until I made that mistake. And then I would be like, [01:32:55] okay, you know, I should have listened to the advice, but now I’m realising I don’t need to make that mistake. I can listen to someone [01:33:00] and, you know, if they’re older and they’re giving you the opinion, that’s probably they’ve been through [01:33:05] that themselves. So that’s probably a little bit of wisdom I’m starting to gain where I’m just trying to listen [01:33:10] to people’s opinions more and actually do it without being, you know, naive and thinking [01:33:15] I know best.

Payman Langroudi: The only thing in life is sometimes you have to learn the lesson before you. Yeah. Life [01:33:20] keeps on teaching you the lesson until you learn it as a bitch. Yeah, it is.

Andrew El-Khanagry: It is.

Payman Langroudi: It is. It’s [01:33:25] been a massive, massive pleasure having you, man. We’re going to end with the usual questions.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Fancy [01:33:30] dinner party? Three guests, dead or alive. Who you [01:33:35] having?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Um, so, I [01:33:40] mean, I wouldn’t. I’m not going to give you this answer because I don’t think you’ll accept it, but [01:33:45] probably I’d say first one has to be Jesus. But I probably won’t accept that.

Payman Langroudi: But why not Jesus 100%? [01:33:50]

Andrew El-Khanagry: I mean, Jesus is like, you know, a cop to Christian say that because to spend a [01:33:55] dinner party with him and ask, I’ve got a million questions to ask.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got no problem with Jesus, Buddha and Muhammad. I’ve got a [01:34:00] problem when people say, my wife.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Well, no, no, I don’t have that problem yet, so I [01:34:05] can’t say that. Um, probably what?

Payman Langroudi: We’re on Jesus. While we’re on Jesus. I’ve had a revelation [01:34:10] of my own. I’ve been really, like, worried about does God exist or doesn’t God exist? Did [01:34:15] God? Did Jesus exist or didn’t? Did he or didn’t he? Yeah. That one. The belief point here. [01:34:20]

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah. Can I ask you a question? Yeah. Reply. I know you’ve told me before. You [01:34:25] know your wife’s Lebanese and she’s and she’s she’s Christian. What does she think about it is she is. She believes. [01:34:30] She believes. What conversations do you have together with her about about this topic?

Payman Langroudi: She takes [01:34:35] the kids to church. I’m like, you’re indoctrinating them?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Um. As a joke? [01:34:40] Yeah. Of course, of course. But the revelation I’ve had, it’s an interesting idea of not. [01:34:45] Is there a God or isn’t there a God? But the. Should there be a God question? [01:34:50] Yeah. Okay. Is is is one and almost like a should there be oversight? [01:34:55] Yeah. Is oversight. If we knew there was oversight, I mean, we could arrange it. By the way, [01:35:00] cameras everywhere. Yeah. That’s one point. And the other point is, you know, like I went to a Catholic [01:35:05] school. I know the Jesus story better than I know the the Muhammad story. Um, whether [01:35:10] or not Jesus existed. Yeah. The characteristics [01:35:15] of Jesus, that philosophy of Jesus on its own, stands up as [01:35:20] a as a beautiful thing. Yeah. So while here I am busy. Did he or didn’t he exist? [01:35:25] Yeah. Like, was he or wasn’t he the Son of God? Question [01:35:30] is really an irrelevant question because the the philosophy itself is the beautiful [01:35:35] thing that that we need to examine. Let’s be fair. Took me 45 years [01:35:40] to figure that one out.

Andrew El-Khanagry: It’s. Yeah. I mean, it’s true. I mean, [01:35:45] even even if you’re not religious, it’s it’s a good philosophy to to.

Payman Langroudi: To look.

Andrew El-Khanagry: At to look at and [01:35:50] it’s I listened to a podcast talking about religion. [01:35:55] Must have been a few weeks ago. And I think the guy I think the guy was religious, but he answered [01:36:00] it. He’s like, I would rather die being religious [01:36:05] and there not being a God, then die being not being [01:36:10] religious. And there is being there. There is a God. I don’t know if that’s a good reason, if that’s a [01:36:15] good reason, but that’s what it came down to in the end. Obviously, you know what? If I’m wrong, everyone’s [01:36:20] everyone’s got their own journey. And I also have had that thought. [01:36:25] You know, I was born into a Christian family.

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Andrew El-Khanagry: You know, if I, if I wasn’t born to Christian family, [01:36:30] would I be Christian? I don’t know, especially I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Know from your part of the world [01:36:35] and my wife’s part of the world that that identity is so super important because Christians [01:36:40] have been in that area since year dot. And and the identity itself [01:36:45] is so key, you know.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah, I mean, I’ve had [01:36:50] I’ve had my own kind of journey to get where I am. And obviously I choose to be Christian [01:36:55] because that’s the way I am.

Payman Langroudi: But you pray.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah I do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Outside of like, let’s say [01:37:00] the Lord’s Prayer. Like, what do you pray for?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Um.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t have to answer it, [01:37:05] by the way.

Andrew El-Khanagry: That’s right. It’s IV. Anything that comes to mind [01:37:10] for me, prayer is like a conversation. So I, I guess it’s a bit of [01:37:15] a monologue, but sometimes I feel like I get an answer in some, in some form.

Payman Langroudi: So is it more like you’re [01:37:20] reporting back? You’re saying I had a good day?

Andrew El-Khanagry: No, not a report, a conversation. Like like, [01:37:25] you know, when, you know, I’ve. This has happened my day. You know, I’m not sure about this or this, [01:37:30] you know, hope hopefully.

Payman Langroudi: It works out.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Hopefully it works out. Hope, hope I can get some guidance on this or, you know, [01:37:35] or or certain things happen that day and you want to get it off your chest. So [01:37:40] there is a certain element of, um, meditation to it, but [01:37:45] it’s not like a, like a strict formal thing, even though Orthodox is quite a [01:37:50] strict formal, you know, prayer, especially when you go to church. For me, prayer [01:37:55] is like a conversation and I just get everything off my chest. And, [01:38:00] you know, personally, I feel like sometimes they get answers in some form or another, but [01:38:05] that’s the best way I could say what my prayers are like. I was like, I guess, like me and you, except, [01:38:10] you know, God’s out there giving me answers in some form rather than they’d be directly [01:38:15] talking back.

Payman Langroudi: And when was your faith most tested?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Oh. [01:38:20] I had a period in [01:38:25] dental school where one of my good mates, [01:38:30] he was born into a Christian family, and he then decided [01:38:35] to leave Christianity. Leave, you know, leave everything and just [01:38:40] explore different religions and ended up being, you know, an atheist. And to be honest, [01:38:45] I had a lot of self-reflection that period, because me and him had a lot of in-depth conversations [01:38:50] about, you know, he’s a very simple person, born into very strict Christian family. Um, [01:38:55] and, you know, that’s what he’s done all his life. And the reasons why he’s decided [01:39:00] to leave Christianity. You know, he makes a lot of valid points. You know, there’s a lot of [01:39:05] valid reasons why you might not be a Christian. And to be honest, at the end of the day, we came to a point [01:39:10] where we, um, we we came to the conclusion where [01:39:15] it’s just a spiritual thing, where at times he felt like he was [01:39:20] spiritually connected in some form. And then at that point now he’s kind of felt [01:39:25] like he’s he’s not. And there is no there is no kind of scientific [01:39:30] reason to there being a god. There’s a lot of kind of theological conversations. [01:39:35]

Payman Langroudi: We’re not talking scientifically, but did it test your own faith when he was going through?

Andrew El-Khanagry: 100%? [01:39:40] Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because you started taking his points on. Well.

Andrew El-Khanagry: I’m not I’m. My parents [01:39:45] aren’t indoctrinating me. I’m free to do what I want. And if I don’t want to be Christian, I don’t have to be. Um.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:39:50] about what about in the like in the in the plight of people like in the charity, you see, like [01:39:55] you must have seen or heard some terrible stories. Do stories. Do not reflect on why does God let [01:40:00] that even happen? Sort of.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That method of.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Yeah, definitely. Of course you do. Of course you do. But [01:40:05] for every answer you. A lot of people have said to me, you know, I don’t know how you do it. I don’t know how [01:40:10] you go to these missions and see all these things, but I’ve seen a lot more beautiful things come out of these missions, [01:40:15] and I’ve had a lot more incredible, even religious conversations [01:40:20] with some of these people who’ve said to me, you know, I was praying about someone coming and [01:40:25] I needed someone to be there. And you’ve come out of nowhere and you’ve got me out of pain. So [01:40:30] if anything, I feel like, you know, a lot of people go, you know, I think it’s great to [01:40:35] go strengthened. Yeah, it’s a great thing to go on these missions anyway and help people. But for me personally, it does strengthen [01:40:40] my, my faith and and my religion. And, you know, in [01:40:45] that in that sense of my relationship with, with Jesus and God. So it’s yeah, for me it’s [01:40:50] a good it’s actually a positive. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Second guest we’ve got Jesus.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Oh, [01:40:55] gosh. I forgot the question. Um, probably my granddad, um, he’s passed away [01:41:00] and he’s for me. He’s always been like a hero of mine. He’s, uh. He’s the first role. That’s [01:41:05] my mum’s dad. I never met my dad’s dad, but my mum’s dad, he from a I remember literally holding [01:41:10] his hand as a young age. And he’d be taking me around the streets of Cairo.

Payman Langroudi: Is this the businessman? Who?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Businessman? Yeah, he [01:41:15] used to own, like, a big rubber factory in Egypt. And he’d do, like, the rubber, uh, frames [01:41:20] on all the doors and like, all the mercs, BMWs. You just do that rubber kind of frame. Just a little, little [01:41:25] thing.

Payman Langroudi: What things people do, right?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Little thing. But again, massive, massive rubber business. Yeah, yeah. Um, [01:41:30] plastic business. So yeah, he. Yeah, he just lived in Lockerbie to help loads of people. And he was my [01:41:35] first kind of exposure to that, kind of that kind of.

Payman Langroudi: How old were you when he passed away?

Andrew El-Khanagry: Oh, he only passed away like 4 [01:41:40] or 5 years ago. Oh, I’m sorry, but he he passed away just as we were starting the charity stuff. So [01:41:45] it would have been good for him to kind of. It would be obviously we’re nowhere near where we can be, but it [01:41:50] would be good to kind of it’d be nice to have seen where where we’re at now and have that conversation and see [01:41:55] what advice he can give and from his own experience. Um, and then.

Payman Langroudi: It’s nice [01:42:00] it’s nice to hear that you have like, a story of, like an industrialist who’s kind. [01:42:05] Yeah. Because almost the archetype is you’ve got to be a bastard to be in business. [01:42:10] You know, this sort of weird things that, that, that narratives that, that we hear.

Andrew El-Khanagry: And [01:42:15] he had that side of him. He was, you know, he was pretty. I’ve heard some stories where he.

Payman Langroudi: Had.

Andrew El-Khanagry: The hard [01:42:20] time. Yeah, he had the hard side. But, you know, you have I think you have to be if you’re in business, you have to have [01:42:25] both elements. You can’t. You’re never going to progress if you don’t have that kind of side to you as well. [01:42:30]

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know about that.

Andrew El-Khanagry: I’m not sure you do. I mean, I’m happy. Yeah, I’m not sure.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know.

Andrew El-Khanagry: It’s [01:42:35] difficult to negotiate. I don’t, but he had that side to him. And, [01:42:40] you know, I’ve heard stories, but of some really high people in Parliament try and do some [01:42:45] things to him. Egypt’s a bit. There’s a bit more corruption in Egypt. So yeah. And when you see successful businessmen, a [01:42:50] lot of government trying to impose a lot of things on you, which basically [01:42:55] try and take money from you. Really. So you have to have that almost.

Payman Langroudi: My Egyptian friend [01:43:00] was saying the road. The road from Cairo to wherever it was has been resurfaced four times in the last four [01:43:05] years because of some corruption scandal, some.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Contract deal they have with the company, I’m sure. Yeah, [01:43:10] a lot of corruption. Um, and.

Payman Langroudi: The third person.

Andrew El-Khanagry: So the third person [01:43:15] I’m really fascinated with, like ancient Egyptology and things like that. Oh, yeah. I love going [01:43:20] to temples and seeing all that kind of stuff. So probably like, uh, like Ramses the second or Khufu [01:43:25] or something, like some sort of Egyptian pharaoh and asking them, you know, how did you build the pyramids? [01:43:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you seen this new stuff about it going under for two kilometres?

Andrew El-Khanagry: I’ve read. I’m not [01:43:35] sure if it’s fake. I think.

Payman Langroudi: It’s fake news.

Andrew El-Khanagry: But. But yeah, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: That would be a good one.

Andrew El-Khanagry: It would be a good story. It would be a good story. [01:43:40] But yeah. No, that probably might be my three random guests. Really amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. [01:43:45] And the final question is deathbed. I know it’s a bit early for you, but deathbed. Three pieces [01:43:50] of advice for your friends and family.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Um, so probably first [01:43:55] bit of advice. Take people’s advice from early on. Um, [01:44:00] you don’t have to go through the problem yourself and do the mistake yourself. Just, [01:44:05] just, you know, listen to the advice and take it on. Uh, second thing [01:44:10] is. Don’t let the little things [01:44:15] kind of keep you up at night. You know, I’m quite in my [01:44:20] dentistry, in my life in general. I’m very much a perfectionist. And, um, [01:44:25] that can impact me sometimes. So, you know, just letting [01:44:30] things go and knowing what’s worth worrying about or not. And [01:44:35] third bit of advice. Just, I [01:44:40] guess, I guess just have understand the importance of keeping your, your family and friends close, [01:44:45] you know. For me again, that’s Well, most of my enjoyment comes [01:44:50] is from my family and friends, and most of my happiness is so having having them around [01:44:55] and uh, and relying on them when the, when the [01:45:00] going gets tough. It’s important as well. So that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Good advice. Yeah. But you know, you answered that. Well [01:45:05] most people answer that question. And this is the way I am. This is the way I am. This is who [01:45:10] I am. So you should be too. But your first two responses were kind of I wish I was more like this, [01:45:15] I wish I was more like that. Yeah, which is a good way of answering that question. I’m just.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Learning. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:45:20] No, but you know what it is that in you’ll find like, I don’t know if you think back to a friend [01:45:25] you have from childhood. Yeah. And if you’re thinking of him, you’re thinking what’s his biggest [01:45:30] strength? That guy. And it might be he’s a perfectionist. Yeah. And then if you really [01:45:35] look at his life. Yeah. And you figure out what’s his biggest weakness ends up being [01:45:40] he’s a perfectionist. Your biggest strength does end up being your biggest weakness. You know, [01:45:45] like on that one. It’s great to be a perfectionist, but you don’t trust anyone to. You [01:45:50] can’t delegate. You know, things like that. Um, life is like that. It’s been a pleasure [01:45:55] having you, man. It’s been a pleasure.

Andrew El-Khanagry: Honestly.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much for coming all the way as well. Driving all that way.

Andrew El-Khanagry: No, no. Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: Good [01:46:00] to have.

Andrew El-Khanagry: You. Thank you very much.

[VOICE]: This is Dental [01:46:05] Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [01:46:10] in dentistry. Your hosts, [01:46:15] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, [01:46:20] guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you [01:46:25] both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest [01:46:30] has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of [01:46:35] it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who [01:46:40] you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our [01:46:45] six star rating.

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[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in [00:00:40] dentistry. Your hosts [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure [00:00:50] to welcome Sonia Rajput onto the podcast. Sonia is a young dentist who I [00:00:55] first met at Mini Smile Makeover. Because you were his PhD. Yes. Um, [00:01:00] meteoric rise in your career, Sonia. From Birmingham to [00:01:05] some of the most exciting practices in London. Yeah. Currently working. Where? [00:01:10]

Sonia Rajput: Yeah. So I work with Mark Hughes in Beaconsfield in Buckinghamshire, and [00:01:15] I work at London small clinic, Tim Bradstock Smith’s clinic there in central London. So yeah, [00:01:20] I’m in those two places.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a very aesthetically orientated practices, full mouth type work [00:01:25] going on in those practices too. Yeah. Um, let’s let’s get back [00:01:30] to when I met you. Yeah. I mean, just to land the job [00:01:35] at practice, you must have had a strong CV before [00:01:40] you even did your PhD. Is that right?

Sonia Rajput: Um, to be honest, I’ve always been a bit of [00:01:45] a, like, a bit of a I don’t want to say nobody, but like, a bit of at the back of [00:01:50] the room, like, not really relevant to anyone. Um, probably throughout the whole of university and school, [00:01:55] I was really, like on the back burner. I I’ve worked hard, so I did [00:02:00] got my degree, I got my degree. So I think that was a real big thing that people liked. Not many people in my year got [00:02:05] honours. So then when it came to, um, my foundation year back then, it was [00:02:10] just like you had to do interviews. So depression wasn’t my trainer, but he was at the practice. So I really got [00:02:15] on with the trainer at the practice. And, um. Her name was Lena. She was a female dentist, [00:02:20] and I really got on with her, and I knew that was the kind of place I wanted to do my foundation training. And obviously having [00:02:25] Depeche there, I knew that would be super useful to learn all the kind of aesthetic dentistry. So [00:02:30] yeah, I ended up getting that place, but before that, I’m pretty much a pretty useless person. I’d [00:02:35] say.

Payman Langroudi: What are you saying? You’re an introvert.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah, 100%. Really? Yeah. [00:02:40] Fully.

Payman Langroudi: Do you find it hard sort of networking and standing [00:02:45] on a stage? Maybe.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah. I wouldn’t say public speaking is my forte, for sure. Um, [00:02:50] which probably sounds really funny now that I do kind of put my face out there on socials, but, [00:02:55] um, yeah, I think I was very quiet conservative for most of my life. [00:03:00] And then I feel like I just think, why do you need to? I just I just feel like I kind [00:03:05] of opened up as I got more confident in my, in my career and as life [00:03:10] progressed and things like that. So I just, yeah, got more, more comfortable.

Payman Langroudi: If we rewind to childhood. [00:03:15] Sonia.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of kid were you?

Sonia Rajput: Girly swot and [00:03:20] girly kid. Quiet kid. Really boring. Um, I had two older brothers [00:03:25] at the time. I have a younger sister now, but she was eight years younger than me, so for most of my childhood [00:03:30] I was like, there was two brothers. I never really got to play because they were playing together. And then I was just like, okay, I’ll just chill [00:03:35] by myself in Birmingham. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And what did your parents do?

Sonia Rajput: So both my parents were medical doctors. My whole, [00:03:40] my whole, like my two brothers are medical doctors. My parents are medical doctors. So there’s always been medicine in my family. [00:03:45] Um, but my parents were the first ones to go to university, and they’re kind of like generation. [00:03:50] So they were always hot on education, kind of like for their kids. So I [00:03:55] think even up until my third year of dental school, my dad’s like, you know, you can still do medicine. I was like, no, I’m doing dentistry. [00:04:00] You’re probably even a fourth, fifth year. He was like, do medicine? And I was like, no, no, I really want to do dentistry. [00:04:05] So yeah, I’m the first dentist. And and now my sister’s training to be a dentist now, actually.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:04:10] what kind of doctors are your parents?

Sonia Rajput: General medical practitioner. So they do GPS. They’ve got their own clinic in [00:04:15] Birmingham. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Strange year, because I bet you’re happy you chose dentistry over medicine. [00:04:20]

Sonia Rajput: Oh, my God, 100%. I feel like it’s the best decision I ever made. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And my my brother’s [00:04:25] doctor, and he was telling me he’d. No way would he tell his kids to become doctors. Yeah, but your parents [00:04:30] were kind of keen.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah, 100%. I think they just loved the passion. My dad’s super passionate, [00:04:35] so, like, he loves educating people. And I probably get a lot of that from him.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sonia Rajput: Um, [00:04:40] and my brothers, probably they did medicine because they didn’t know what else to do. They’re clever [00:04:45] people. They got what they wanted to be.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what kind of doctors are they?

Sonia Rajput: Again, GP’s as well. So they’re [00:04:50] all kind of partners at their GP practices. Um, so they’re all very successful in what [00:04:55] they do. But I just hate dealing with death. Like that was a huge thing for me. I don’t like hearing about people dying. [00:05:00] So I was like, I don’t want to do medicine.

Payman Langroudi: Strange thing is, yeah, like, you know, when we’re picking [00:05:05] right now, my kid’s doing his A levels. My my boy, um, when you’re picking medicine [00:05:10] and dentistry kind of fall in the same bucket. True. But the jobs are nothing [00:05:15] like each other.

Sonia Rajput: Completely different.

Payman Langroudi: Completely different.

Sonia Rajput: Completely different.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s a it’s a weird thing to say. I’m [00:05:20] picking between medicine and dentistry, and it tends to be ophthalmics and pharmacy as well. Yeah.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah [00:05:25] that’s.

Payman Langroudi: True. And we get it, I get it. It’s all in healthcare.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: All four of those jobs are completely [00:05:30] different to each other. So when you picked dentistry and went against your parent’s [00:05:35] advice. Mhm. I mean there’s one side of that which is, you know, kind of independence [00:05:40] thought idea. But what was it, what was the influence on you. I mean, okay, [00:05:45] I don’t like death, but did you, did you, did you. You don’t have to deal with death. You could have been a.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Obs [00:05:50] and gynae or something.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah. The worst thing that can go wrong with teeth in the nicest way is not [00:05:55] that bad. Let’s be real, you can’t really go too wrong. So I didn’t want that huge life or death [00:06:00] responsibility. I loved science, but the huge thing is it’s hands on and practical. I think [00:06:05] I would struggle with anything that’s like a desk job. I feel like I need something that’s kind of physical, [00:06:10] keeping me going. So, yes, it could have been a surgeon. Um, but that just didn’t appeal to me that the length of the pathway. [00:06:15] So I thought it was good. It was a good balance as a female to have this kind of career. Definitely. Yeah. For sure. So [00:06:20] like.

Payman Langroudi: For a woman. Great job. So then you got to Birmingham Dental School. Um, was [00:06:25] it the old one or the new one?

Sonia Rajput: I had half the old one, half the new one. So. Okay. It was good.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:06:30] your initial impressions were you living at home?

Sonia Rajput: I know I lived out for three years. Yeah. So I knew I wanted [00:06:35] to. I was going to come to King’s, actually. But the thought of London scared me at that time again, because I [00:06:40] was an introvert. So then being at home was Birmingham was like comfortable for me. But then [00:06:45] I wanted to live out and still enjoy uni experience.

Payman Langroudi: Do you not regret it now?

Sonia Rajput: No. I had the best experience [00:06:50] ever at uni. I’ve got.

Payman Langroudi: No. But do you not regret not leaving your hometown?

Sonia Rajput: I [00:06:55] think because I’ve moved now I’m fine. Because I’ve had that experience. Now, if I think I stayed there, then I probably would [00:07:00] have regretted not experiencing a new city at a certain point in my life. But because [00:07:05] I’ve moved now, I feel like I’m. I’m getting this now.

Payman Langroudi: I’m discussing that with my son now. Yeah. And I remember [00:07:10] at 17, 18 I wanted to stay in London as well, because you think you know it all, don’t [00:07:15] you?

Sonia Rajput: True.

Payman Langroudi: And then you think, well, everything’s good. I mean, one of the world’s top cities. I know people, I [00:07:20] know places. Why not just stay? Yeah. And then I didn’t get my grades. I didn’t get the grades. I wanted us to [00:07:25] go to Guy’s or London Hospital. I mean, they’ve changed their names now, but I wanted to go there. I didn’t get the grades end [00:07:30] up in Cardiff. But the best thing that ever happened to me because. Because I got there and [00:07:35] reinvented, you know, and reinvented doesn’t necessarily mean made [00:07:40] up a new person that didn’t exist. Sometimes it’s to do with there was a person in there that couldn’t [00:07:45] express itself to himself at the way, you know, with the parameters that were set with the friends [00:07:50] and whatever you had there.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then. So now I’m telling my son, look, go somewhere [00:07:55] else. Somewhere else. But he wants to be an engineer. And, you know, Imperial’s strong on engineering. [00:08:00] And Imperial happens to be the building next door to his school.

Sonia Rajput: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And I’m telling him, look, what [00:08:05] are you going to get from staying in the same part of London for university? [00:08:10]

Sonia Rajput: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So. But you don’t have that feeling. I mean, if you’d gone to Bristol or something.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t [00:08:15] you think there would have been a whole life there?

Sonia Rajput: Probably. It would have been. It would have been a whole new challenge for me. And were you scared [00:08:20] or something? Maybe I was scared. I don’t know, maybe inherently. I was scared to have too much change. I don’t like a [00:08:25] lot of change, but I’m here now, and I had to change. So. But I think, yeah, I think [00:08:30] you have to either be comfortable with the idea of moving somewhere new and just going with it, and also reinventing [00:08:35] yourself to a certain degree. Um, but yeah, maybe I was scared back then [00:08:40] and I just wanted.

Payman Langroudi: So then. So then you’re also scared this time when you moved to London?

Sonia Rajput: No, I was much. I was fine, really? [00:08:45] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So you are evolving a little bit.

Sonia Rajput: I evolved, I think I changed the most in [00:08:50] university, got confidence and things like that.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me. Tell me about university. Okay. What were you like? [00:08:55] What was the experience like? Um, did you have the great Lewis McKenzie?

Sonia Rajput: I did, yeah, he was [00:09:00] great. He was really cool. Um, yeah. So university was amazing. Um, I think when you have [00:09:05] a good bunch of friends to kind of encourage you, everyone says to support you. It’s not like cutthroat. [00:09:10] It’s a really great place to grow and flourish. So I think that was a huge thing. Um, I’m still [00:09:15] in touch with like 80% of the people that I’m friends with, which is like six, seven years later, which is really, really [00:09:20] nice. Yeah. Um, so yeah, it was a great place. I met my husband there. And so it’s always been a [00:09:25] positive life part of my life.

Payman Langroudi: So university you enjoyed and I’m talking [00:09:30] about dentistry in university. Did it hit you hard because it hit me so hard?

Sonia Rajput: It is very stressful. I think I [00:09:35] had breakdowns in my second year, like I don’t think I slept for about three days straight and lead up to exams. It’s extremely [00:09:40] stressful. Um, I passed everything so I didn’t ever struggle with that. I think [00:09:45] I’ve always been academically lucky. It takes a really long time for me to understand [00:09:50] something, but once I understand it, it’s like when it clicks, it clicks. So then I’m fine. [00:09:55] So I just have to sit in my room, probably for about a good few hours. And I’m a last minute [00:10:00] crammer, so me too. And the whole time of the year probably was like, yeah, sure, just getting by. [00:10:05] And then when it comes to crunch time, that’s when that’s when I like come awake at, let’s say midnight [00:10:10] two days before. And I’m like, crap, I have to actually focus on what I’m doing now.

Payman Langroudi: I’m quite interested in the question [00:10:15] of ambition.

Sonia Rajput: Um.

Payman Langroudi: So with regards to ambition, [00:10:20] do you like do you remember a time where you decided [00:10:25] I’m going to be really good and I’m going to try really hard? I’m going to be somebody in [00:10:30] dentistry. And when was that time? Was that just six months ago, or [00:10:35] was it early on, like, did you have a chip on your shoulder to prove your parents wrong or something? [00:10:40] Just to give me your thoughts around the question of ambition. Are you ambitious, number one?

Sonia Rajput: I think I [00:10:45] am very ambitious. Yeah, anybody who kind of sees me just thinks I have loads [00:10:50] of friends who are happy just doing normal standard dentistry, but I’m always trying to push myself to the next thing. Something [00:10:55] different, let’s say. Um, probably. I’d say. Yeah, maybe second year after I graduated. [00:11:00] That’s when it kind of hit me that I can do a bit more.

Payman Langroudi: So what, after your PhD? [00:11:05]

Sonia Rajput: Yeah, I probably would say Dipesh was really inspiring. I think he really pushed me to be like, you [00:11:10] can be a pretty epic, well-known person if you’re just damn good at what you do. I [00:11:15] think that was really inspiring.

Payman Langroudi: So you think before that you just [00:11:20] were working day to day becoming a dentist and had no real direction.

Sonia Rajput: I had no goal. I had no [00:11:25] idea what I was doing. Yes, I wanted to be a dentist. Yes, I wanted to be successful. But everyone’s [00:11:30] idea of success is different, right? Like it could just be. Yes, you have a good job. And you 9 [00:11:35] to 5 and you’re happy. Um, at one point, I thought being successful was having your own clinic. [00:11:40] Like having your own thing that you’ve created. And probably maybe like, 3 or 4 years ago. [00:11:45] I really wanted to do that. But for me, now I feel like I’m having [00:11:50] success is also having time to your family and do the things that [00:11:55] you want to do. Really? Do you know what I mean? For sure. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: For sure.

Sonia Rajput: So maybe in the future, having a clinic is something [00:12:00] that I would look at, but but just having, um, time to do the [00:12:05] things that I want to do and and enjoy. I love dentistry and I love doing what I do, but I love [00:12:10] taking a step away from it and having like, a whole life outside of it as well.

Payman Langroudi: So you went from the [00:12:15] practice to the great Scot arms?

Sonia Rajput: Yeah, the great Scot arms. [00:12:20]

Payman Langroudi: For people who don’t know about Scot arms, just just give a little, little explanation [00:12:25] of what that is.

Sonia Rajput: Scot arms is a huge clinic [00:12:30] in Birmingham, which is mostly known as an emergency centre, to be honest with you. So I would say it’s [00:12:35] like 90% private, 10% NHS, but it’s like a, I want to say 25 surgery practice. [00:12:40] It’s huge. Um, you look at the front of the building and it looks like a house, but actually it’s like seven [00:12:45] houses connected.

Payman Langroudi: On and on and on. When you go in there.

Sonia Rajput: On and on and on in there for sure. [00:12:50] And um, yeah. So when you are in there, don’t necessarily feel you only meet [00:12:55] a few people when you’re at work. You don’t know everybody who’s in that building. There would be someone new every day. And I was like, oh, hi. I didn’t [00:13:00] even know you work here. That kind of thing.

Payman Langroudi: I was, you know, I talk to young dentists, right? And depending on [00:13:05] what they’re doing, I always think there’s this, there’s learnings to be had in every job, both [00:13:10] positive and negative. Right? Things. Things you pick up from someone else. Um, [00:13:15] and things you think. I would never do that as well.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And if I [00:13:20] had a friend in Scott arms, I would be like, get Shadow [00:13:25] Phil Tanquary.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And just figure out what that [00:13:30] guy’s brain is working like. How did he do this? What? How does he think about [00:13:35] it? True. Did you learn anything about that? Or like, you know, about managing huge numbers of [00:13:40] people? How many staff were there?

Sonia Rajput: I mean, I don’t even.

Payman Langroudi: Know hundreds.

Sonia Rajput: Hundreds, probably hundreds of stuff. I [00:13:45] don’t ever I used to have meetings with Phil, but he never really talked about the management side. So he obviously [00:13:50] went through numbers of how he’s tracking everything that’s going on in the clinic. But that’s the key [00:13:55] to his success. I can see he was tracking everything. We’d see this needs to be improved. That needs to be improved. You’re not doing so well [00:14:00] here.

Payman Langroudi: Was he very hands on?

Sonia Rajput: Uh, physically hands on, like in terms of dentistry? No. [00:14:05]

Payman Langroudi: Hands on?

Sonia Rajput: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah. He’d be there all the time for sure. And like, checking through the numbers. [00:14:10] Um, so yeah, I didn’t really learn about it in that, in that respect. But the, the huge [00:14:15] benefit of being there was there’s so many people doing so many different types of dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: You learn from them 100%. [00:14:20]

Sonia Rajput: If there was an extraction, I was stuck on every, um, this guy would be upstairs, David, and I’d be like, David, [00:14:25] please, his tooth is broken. Please help me. He’d come and help me. And that’s how you learn, because you can practice knowing that [00:14:30] there’s someone kind of like a safety net there for you. So if I did do something wrong, it was kind of the best place to learn. [00:14:35] Um, and then I made some really good connections there. So orthodontists there. So if I [00:14:40] had a really tricky line of cases, she would be there to help me. If I’d be like, actually, it’s too much for me. I think you should do it. Pass [00:14:45] it on to her. Um, and Sharon was there. She’s like a huge Dental big sister for me, so she [00:14:50] really encouraged me early on in my career. So that was great. And yeah, so if I had a case where I was like, Sharon, [00:14:55] I think this is what I should be doing, but could you what would you do? She’d be like, yeah, I think that’s all fine. You’ve done all the right things. So [00:15:00] having a huge amount of people there to kind of support you was great thing. That kind [00:15:05] of pushed me early on in my career. So I stayed there for about five years.

Payman Langroudi: And what about socially? Because, [00:15:10] you know, Ft+ one year I found it really isolating. [00:15:15] Yeah, because in PhD, you’ve got your group and you’ve got your whatever Fridays that you go and see everyone [00:15:20] and all that. But the ft+ one I was, I was a nice practice, a four surgery practice. Yeah. [00:15:25] But that sudden realisation that it’s me, the nurse, this room. Yeah. And was [00:15:30] it all for this? Yeah. And I was outside my comfort zone. I was in Kent. [00:15:35]

Sonia Rajput: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so friends weren’t around. So suddenly you get pulled out of your social [00:15:40] circle, you get pulled out of education. Now you’re in the workplace. Was it was this [00:15:45] socially? Was there stuff going on? Like did they do stuff that many people.

Sonia Rajput: Um, [00:15:50] you had to find your groups in there for sure. So I’ve got like a great group, group of [00:15:55] girls that I had there. And so we’d pop into each other’s rooms at lunches, and that’s the only social aspect. But altogether, [00:16:00] they’d probably just be a Christmas party or maybe like a summer thing, but it would tend to be like groups. So [00:16:05] nurses together, male dentists together, female dentists in a separate group. So yeah, it was kind of segregated in [00:16:10] that respect. Um, but that’s why I really like being in like smaller [00:16:15] clinics now because everybody talks to everybody. Like I like seeing my receptionist and chatting to them and things [00:16:20] like that. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I think, look, one massive learning from that practice is to have the insight [00:16:25] to bring patients in for emergencies. Yeah. Like that was the [00:16:30] for that clinic, the Night-Time opening or whatever.

Sonia Rajput: It was open till 11 p.m..

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that [00:16:35] was the way that was the feeder of all those patients that grew this [00:16:40] practice to 25 chairs. And there’s another practice night. Dental. Are you aware of them in [00:16:45] Birmingham as well?

Sonia Rajput: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Similar idea started that way. And now they’ve got several of [00:16:50] them. But that’s a massive learning right. To think outside the box from the perspective [00:16:55] of getting patients. Yeah. And you know, I’m sure there’s 100 other things he did right as [00:17:00] well.

Sonia Rajput: But that place was always busy. Like Scott Arms was just always busy. It’s pretty crazy. [00:17:05] But because there were so many patients, so many emergency patients, it did make me a really good dentist because I [00:17:10] literally saw any kind of scenario you could think of literally anything. So and I would be the dentist. [00:17:15] I was working till 11 p.m. on like a Boxing Day, and I was the only dentist on call in the whole [00:17:20] of Midlands. Like, you just have to deal with what you have to deal with. And so yeah, I learned so much and it really [00:17:25] developed me. So it’s a great place. It’s a crazy place, but it’s a great place. And I think you [00:17:30] need to be able to put in the hours and the time and effort to learn in your first few years of your career. So it’s yeah, [00:17:35] it’s a great place for me to learn.

Payman Langroudi: But it was mainly private.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah, it was mainly private. So it was [00:17:40] a very.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting idea, right? You almost got an NHS experience? Yeah, in a private setting. [00:17:45]

Sonia Rajput: Very true.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, quite, quite hard to get both, you know, like volume and quality and price in [00:17:50] the same place.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah. I guess they’re kind of reasonable on price. And when you compare it to kind of like London prices. [00:17:55] Um, but yes, it was still private rather than NHS. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so was [00:18:00] it there that you kind of got into the aligned bleach blonde?

Sonia Rajput: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The facial aesthetics, [00:18:05] facial aesthetics.

Sonia Rajput: I started when I was at Birmingham, but I never really like grew up on it that much. I would say [00:18:10] it grew more when I moved to London. Um, I’ve always had it kind of in the back burner, but, um, [00:18:15] I just felt like there wasn’t. It was so busy at times I couldn’t ever talk about anything other than dentistry. Like [00:18:20] I just never got the time to do it. So, um. Yeah. No, I got into that line. [00:18:25] Bleach. Bleach blonde. Pretty much. So I did, um, worked at Depression Practices Foundation [00:18:30] year. Saw that I wanted to do that kind of dentistry. I would stay behind till 8:00 pm and watch him do cases because [00:18:35] I was like, he is so talented. I need to see how he’s doing, what he’s doing. And yeah, it gave me the push [00:18:40] to say, like, I want to do this kind of dentistry. Um, then I went to the mini smile makeover [00:18:45] and then I was like, yep, that’s going to, um, stuff I want to be doing. So then I landed up, [00:18:50] um, with my job at Scar Arms because I sat next to Sharon on that course. Really? [00:18:55] Yeah. So because I was sitting next to.

Payman Langroudi: Sharon videos we made of the two of you together. You didn’t know each other [00:19:00] before then?

Sonia Rajput: No, I literally I think he put me in the worst seat, sat me in the corner. He was like, you’re here. Just like [00:19:05] my friend. So just sit there as my little associate there. So you sit in the corner. And then Sharon ended [00:19:10] up sitting next to me. And it was a two day thing. Right. So we just and there was a dinner and stuff. So [00:19:15] yeah, we just got on so well. And then I was just saying, oh, I’m looking for a job. I don’t know what I’m [00:19:20] doing. Like I don’t know where to go. And she was like, I think you’d be great at the practice I’m at. So she was like, it’s got arms. [00:19:25] And then, um, that’s she literally took a selfie with me and said to Phil Tangri, [00:19:30] I think I found your next dentist, went for an interview literally the next week. And then. Yeah, that was my [00:19:35] job.

Payman Langroudi: He lost his PhD.

Sonia Rajput: He never asked me to stay on, you know. So, yeah. [00:19:40] No joking. Yeah. So yeah, that’s how how how it turned out. That’s how I ended up getting my job. But I was very [00:19:45] scared because it was a private practice and I was like, am I ready to be going into private practice? This is. Are you sure? [00:19:50] And Sharon was so good to me. She was like, if you’re doing the best that you can do and you’re early on in your [00:19:55] career, don’t feel like you’re not good enough. She’s like, you’re spending the time and effort to be doing the dentistry you want to be doing. [00:20:00] Then why? Why can you not be private? And I was like, yeah, fair enough. And it was really, really good advice. She she [00:20:05] probably shaped my first few years of being a dentist. So yeah for sure.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So I come across [00:20:10] that worry quite a lot. Yeah. People saying am I ready for private. Yeah. And [00:20:15] I kind of flip it on its head and say are you ready for NHS? True. Yeah. Nhs is a massive [00:20:20] skill set, right. To be able to pull it off, I’d say it’s harder than trying to [00:20:25] pull off a private job. Yeah. As long as you know your limitations. I mean that’s that’s a key thing.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah. [00:20:30] Knowing when.

Payman Langroudi: To say when can I refer.

Sonia Rajput: 100%?

Payman Langroudi: And I’d say, let’s [00:20:35] say, let’s say you’re an FD now and you’ve got ambitions of going straight to private.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah. [00:20:40]

Payman Langroudi: Then I’d say if you manage to get the job and we’ll talk about that in a moment. Yeah. [00:20:45] If you manage to get the job then be a little bit overcautious with referring. [00:20:50] So refer slightly more stuff than you think you should to start [00:20:55] with. Yeah. Then you’re super safe. True. Yeah. You’re safe for the patient.

Sonia Rajput: You have to [00:21:00] be safe for sure. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Then, you know, they say, oh, go to the NHS and learn, you know, get experience. [00:21:05] Yeah. While you’re doing that, be in private and get experience of talking [00:21:10] to private patients.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah. I think the way you communicate is. Yeah, [00:21:15] you just have more time to communicate about.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the most important thing to learn. Yeah. How do you [00:21:20] communicate and what’s the point of being in private practice if you’re not learning something? [00:21:25] Right. Of course. Learn the clinical skills. Go on courses, practice things. But but learn [00:21:30] the communication Communications side being gentle, painless injections. All the things that working [00:21:35] to time. Yeah. You know all the things that that private dentistry is.

Sonia Rajput: Tlc. [00:21:40]

Payman Langroudi: Tlc stuff, you know. And and you know, you asked me before we started. When did I stop [00:21:45] practising? Yeah. Um, I stopped practising, but you only really figure out what [00:21:50] you loved about it once you stop.

Sonia Rajput: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And for me, it was that patient interaction talking [00:21:55] to people. You know, I don’t particularly miss the teeth.

Sonia Rajput: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I’m happy doing what I’m doing [00:22:00] rather than fixing people’s teeth. But I miss talking to humans.

Sonia Rajput: Absolutely. [00:22:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And a lot of the time when you’re a dentist, people are in the way of [00:22:10] what you’re trying to achieve because you’re trying to get this veneer prep done or whatever it is, [00:22:15] and you don’t realise how lucky you are that you’re exposed to all these human beings [00:22:20] and, you know, from different walks of life, and now you’re working in these super duper practices. I’m [00:22:25] sure you’re getting some super interesting people sitting in your chair.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:22:30] and the other thing I reflect on is I took over from my wife when she got pregnant. [00:22:35]

Sonia Rajput: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and I used to come home and say Mr.. [00:22:40] Whatever is. He was like, I don’t know, head of business, um, journalism, [00:22:45] like in the PhD. Used to work in the PhD. He was the chief correspondent for Business pages, [00:22:50] a big job. Yeah. I’d say. Did you know this guy was in Davos? [00:22:55] You know, like talking to the prime minister of whatever. Yeah. And she knew nothing about it. She [00:23:00] didn’t even know that that was his job. Yeah. But she knew stuff about his family. And so the really interesting [00:23:05] thing about what interests you about another human being. Sure. Yeah. But those [00:23:10] conversations in private are so important. So, so, so important.

Sonia Rajput: I do love that. No. [00:23:15] You’re right. The kind of relationships you can build with your patients and the kind of people you meet and the things you can learn from [00:23:20] them and vice versa is. Yeah, it’s really cool.

Payman Langroudi: So now if a young dentist came up [00:23:25] to you and said, give me advice.

Sonia Rajput: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your advice.

Sonia Rajput: Good [00:23:30] question because I do get that a lot and I think it is put yourself out there. [00:23:35] I think you should put yourself out there and take any opportunity that you get. But also don’t just say yes [00:23:40] to um any patient case that you get, you have to know your limits and you have to be [00:23:45] good at the basics before you’re ready to move on to the next stage for sure. I see so many people so eager [00:23:50] to make a lot of money and do this kind of stuff, and it’s even in kind of like, let’s say [00:23:55] you get to hear what other people do wrong and do right. Um, people can rush [00:24:00] to become the best dentist possible, but you need to be good at the basics, get good at communication, and then [00:24:05] build a portfolio. Those are the foundations to having a successful associate career, I would say.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:24:10] did you start taking photos very early?

Sonia Rajput: Yeah. So I did um like meniscus [00:24:15] focus course very early on, and I started taking photos from literally my first year of being an associate. [00:24:20] I took photos in PhD practice as well, but not stuff I like post, let’s say, but just to document [00:24:25] my work, but also to reflect and go back on it and see up close the things that were good and [00:24:30] things that were bad.

Payman Langroudi: So then in getting these jobs. So let’s let’s [00:24:35] talk about these two jobs that you’ve got right now. Tim Bradstreet Smith London smile clinic. [00:24:40] Yeah, one of the best, you know, one of the original original.

Sonia Rajput: The best. Honestly. [00:24:45] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: One of the original cosmetic practices in London. I mean, actually, Tim was in dentist’s before [00:24:50] that.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah, I know.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that was the original.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah. The original.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, with, uh, Chris or and, [00:24:55] um, you know, so many, so many people who shaped cosmetic dentistry [00:25:00] were in that practice.

Sonia Rajput: Iconic people, to be honest. Yeah. For sure.

Payman Langroudi: So. Okay, so how did [00:25:05] you get these two amazing jobs with Mark Hughes and with Tim Bradstock Smith coming from [00:25:10] Birmingham?

Sonia Rajput: Um, you ever not believe my story? It’s actually pretty crazy. So I knew I was going to get married [00:25:15] and moved to London, so I was moving to Buckinghamshire area. Um, and I was like, crap, [00:25:20] I need to find a job and where am I going to go? So I literally went on to Google Maps, looked where [00:25:25] I was going to live, and I was like dental practice near me and then saw them all. Then Mark Hughes practice [00:25:30] came up and it was really close to where I was going to be. Um, so I went on Instagram, looked [00:25:35] at the page. I was like, yeah, okay, it looks really nice. Mark Hughes is there must be really good. Just sent them a DM [00:25:40] from my my Dental page and I said hi. Like I’m moving to the area. I’ve been associate [00:25:45] for like 4 or 5 years. Um, I would love to like, know if there’s any jobs going. And then they replied [00:25:50] back, probably like a day later saying, um, yes please. Could you email Mark? So I emailed Mark, and then at the bottom of the email [00:25:55] pretty much said the same thing.

Sonia Rajput: Just put like a link to my Instagram because my Instagram had like dental work and like [00:26:00] some photos of a lot. Yeah, a lot like enough, like good cases. Um, I didn’t have [00:26:05] loads of followers. It’s probably maybe like, I don’t know, 3 or 4000, something like that. Yeah, quite a lot. Quite [00:26:10] a lot. But I wouldn’t say like I’m not like a huge dental influencer, let’s say. Um, but enough and then loads [00:26:15] of work and some patient testimonials. And he was he replied back to me. I remember he was like, [00:26:20] I love that you had the confidence to email me, let’s have an interview and then had an interview. We went to go see him [00:26:25] and that’s it. I got the job and he loved because he loved my work. He loved like the personality. And he could [00:26:30] see what I was like before I even had come to see him. So he knew what to expect. Um, [00:26:35] and then he said, yeah, I’m going to make a position for you, so let’s do it. So I was like, yeah, that was my job.

Payman Langroudi: That [00:26:40] sounds so painless.

Sonia Rajput: It was so too easy. Too easy. Right? But no, it was good.

Payman Langroudi: But, [00:26:45] you know, there were lessons in that story, right? Lessons that take photos, make a portfolio. Dm [00:26:50] people for jobs. Don’t just wait for jobs to come up.

Sonia Rajput: You can’t just wait for [00:26:55] jobs to come up. I mean, I messaged other people as well. Um, but that I knew that when [00:27:00] I knew that was Mark Hughes place and I went to see it, I was like, yeah, I want to be here. It’s really, really nice. Um, [00:27:05] and the potential that you could have.

Payman Langroudi: So, for instance, did you think, who do I know? Who knows Mark Hughes? No, [00:27:10] you didn’t have that thought.

Sonia Rajput: I didn’t even think that. No, I probably should have done that.

Payman Langroudi: Because you [00:27:15] could have called me. Yeah, you could have called me. I’ve known Mark Hughes for 20 years. Right?

Sonia Rajput: Yeah. [00:27:20] True.

Payman Langroudi: If if you were super.

Sonia Rajput: If I was super switched on. Yeah, maybe I could have done that. I should [00:27:25] have done that. But, um, trying to go off my own merit, I guess. I don’t want to love it.

Payman Langroudi: I just love how painless [00:27:30] that was.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah. That’s, um.

Payman Langroudi: So we’ll talk about that practice in a minute. Yeah. How did you get Tim Bradstock [00:27:35] Smith’s job?

Sonia Rajput: So then I was at Mike Hughes practice and the dentist. I worked with another lady there called [00:27:40] Michelle. She works at Tim’s practice.

Payman Langroudi: Michelle.

Sonia Rajput: Michelle Sawyer. And [00:27:45] so, um, she’s a Canadian dentist who moved over maybe like, a few years ago. So we got on really [00:27:50] well at Mark’s practice. So we’re there for one day. And then she just kept saying to me, you’d be amazing at Tim’s [00:27:55] place. And I was like, oh, really? I was like, why? She was like, just like the energy and and you’d fit in really [00:28:00] well. So I was like, oh, okay, cool. No space there. So it wasn’t possible. Then literally three [00:28:05] months later, one of the dentists left and I just got a phone call and she’s like, Sonia, you need [00:28:10] to come for an interview literally ASAP. And I was like, why? She goes, there’s a position opening. I’ve shown Tim your [00:28:15] Instagram page. He really likes your work and likes your kind of personality and presence. So, um, [00:28:20] coming for an interview, went for an interview, spoke through a case like a veneer case to show Tim [00:28:25] because he’s always by the book as well. So showed him a bunch of stuff and, uh, yeah. Then [00:28:30] he was like, yeah, let’s, let’s give this a go. So I’ve had it way too easy. It sounds like too good to be true.

Payman Langroudi: Check your Instagram [00:28:35] page.

Sonia Rajput: It’s not. No, no, it’s not that good.

Payman Langroudi: That’ll be amazing because.

Sonia Rajput: Like, that’s how I got my [00:28:40] jobs, which sounds so crazy, right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. So painless. Both of those.

Sonia Rajput: So I [00:28:45] know it’s. No.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not just your Instagram, is it? I mean, people warm to you obviously. [00:28:50]

Sonia Rajput: Yeah. I mean, maybe when I’m in person I’m a bit more like I take a while to warm up, but once I’m warmed [00:28:55] up. Yeah, they probably like that. Yes. I can see my patients seeing this person. Um, her works good. [00:29:00] And the fact that she’s making the effort to do this online stuff, maybe they like that. I had [00:29:05] the effort to do that. So you probably have to scroll back to all the cases if you go low. Don’t worry. Um, but, [00:29:10] um, yeah. No. Then I think also, to be honest, a lot of them wanted someone [00:29:15] who was willing to be the face of the practice, so they wanted to push socials a bit more. They wanted [00:29:20] to grow their page in a different way, and because I was willing to be on socials, I think they liked [00:29:25] that. I was happy to do that aspect of their practice as well.

Payman Langroudi: But you’re saying it doesn’t [00:29:30] come naturally to you to be on social?

Sonia Rajput: No it doesn’t. I’m probably super nervous at the beginning of this podcast. I’m [00:29:35] an introvert person, which you can probably tell, but I warm up after a while. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So. [00:29:40] So you recognised sort of the social media side as [00:29:45] a necessary evil?

Sonia Rajput: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: That you have to do. It’s like like like, I don’t know, [00:29:50] radiology. Cpd. Yeah. Yeah. A necessary [00:29:55] evil. Yeah, but many don’t. I mean, if you remember on MSM, we always ask that question, right? We [00:30:00] say, how many people here have a dental account. And it’s a very like of the 30 people [00:30:05] there tends to be 3 or 4.

Sonia Rajput: Really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And then maybe there’s another 3 or 4 who [00:30:10] haven’t put their hands up. Yeah. And then you say, well why not? And [00:30:15] people always say same few things, but I have time.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: This is. [00:30:20] I’m worried what other dentists will think of my work 100%. How did you get over that? I’m [00:30:25] proud of your work.

Sonia Rajput: No. Yeah. No, I’m really good. No. I’m joking. No. Absolutely not. I [00:30:30] think I do worry about that when you’re ready to post, I think I probably get, let’s say put, I don’t [00:30:35] know, 30 posts ready. Not that I do that. Let’s say ten posts already. I’ve made ten posts ready to post before and [00:30:40] after my work. Just as I’m about to click posts, I zoom in to like the nth degree, and [00:30:45] then I’m probably at five of those. I’m not going to post because I’m too worried about what people will say. If I showed [00:30:50] someone who’s non Dental such as my mum or I don’t know my husband, I’d be like, that’s great. Before and [00:30:55] after. Why are you worried? So I think you have to take it out of your head that other dentists [00:31:00] may judge you. But I made a page for patients. It’s not for dentists. Yes, dentists [00:31:05] will see it, but I wouldn’t ever judge another. Like I wouldn’t message somebody [00:31:10] and be like, your work is so bad, blah blah blah. I’ve had one person do that to me in my whole career saying, actually, [00:31:15] you should have done this differently or this differently. I appreciate that and I appreciate that you messaged it to me. I don’t think my [00:31:20] work’s the best, that it’s always like all my posts are not like the best work ever. I think I’m good at what I do and [00:31:25] I think patients can see that. And then yeah, so then I would say you should do it. I think you should. You should [00:31:30] make a social media page because the opportunities I’ve got from it, the patients that I get from it, patients can [00:31:35] see work is good. I don’t worry too much about the dentist, but I actually, surprisingly have a lot of really supportive [00:31:40] dental friends and community, and they all are supportive of me. If someone was genuine and be like, Sonia, [00:31:45] you should take that down, then fine. I would take that down. But um, touchwood, it hasn’t come to that at the point. So which is good. [00:31:50]

Payman Langroudi: But it’s your mindset, the kind of person that once you decide to do something, you go all in [00:31:55] on it.

Sonia Rajput: Um, yeah. I’m very, like, blasé. I’m kind of, um, I know [00:32:00] I want to do some things. I know I want to achieve some things. Um, I probably don’t overthink [00:32:05] things too much, because if I do, I probably will talk myself out of it. So I try and set some things [00:32:10] up, ready to do so. If I’ve made the page, I made a post. I have to keep posting now. [00:32:15] Like that’s it, I’ve done it. It. If I say, um, even booking this podcast. Yeah, I know, I [00:32:20] probably would be nervous to do it, let’s say. But if it’s in the diary, I’m just gonna have to do it. Don’t think about it till [00:32:25] the morning before or the night before, and then you’re kind of like you’re there. And that’s the situation. So yeah, [00:32:30] I’m a bit blasé. Maybe.

Payman Langroudi: So. Okay, let’s get down to tactics. Social media tactics. [00:32:35]

Sonia Rajput: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Like what’s your what’s your process regarding posting? Like you’re [00:32:40] taking lots of pictures.

Sonia Rajput: I took lots of photos, a photo, every photograph, everything with my nurses. [00:32:45] Um, but before I used to focus a lot on just before and after photos, but I’m finding a lot more, [00:32:50] um, the nurses want to get involved and make funny videos, and, you know, that kind of like it does [00:32:55] help to grow your page if you have that kind of content. So I’ve started doing a little bit more of that.

Payman Langroudi: Um, yeah. But but [00:33:00] literally like do you, do you decide today we’re going to be filming some stuff [00:33:05] with the nurses.

Sonia Rajput: Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Before you even get there. And then and then and then you tell the nurses today [00:33:10] we’re gonna like I’m literally want to.

Sonia Rajput: Know.

Payman Langroudi: How because. Because people are thinking, you know, I’m going to [00:33:15] go see my patient now. The nurse is cleaning up. Okay. Okay. Now, someone didn’t turn up. So [00:33:20] now we’ve got some time.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah, I probably would.

Payman Langroudi: How do you convince everyone to get involved? The whole thing.

Sonia Rajput: You [00:33:25] kind of have to. A lot of the nurses send me funny videos. They’re like, oh, my God, we should do this. I’m like, okay, shall [00:33:30] we do it on Friday? Seeing a gap in the diary, shall we do that so that yeah, that’s the kind of situation I wouldn’t [00:33:35] say I have a strategy meeting planning this, this, this, this. They kind of send funny things. I’m like, yeah, okay, let’s [00:33:40] do this. We have a gap on this day. Let’s make sure we all kind of look a little bit cute that day, because then you don’t mind. [00:33:45] And then yeah, we’ll try and film it quickly. That’s the kind of like.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s the fun ones.

Sonia Rajput: That’s the fun ones. [00:33:50]

Payman Langroudi: We’ve got the before and afters.

Sonia Rajput: For and afters I can do and then educational ones I’m trying to do more of as well, but it has [00:33:55] to be on the time where you’re mentally prepared to be willing to sit there for a little bit. So I can’t do it at the [00:34:00] end of a long day, it’s too much. If I have, let’s say someone’s cancelled in the morning, I’d be like, okay, I [00:34:05] can do it then. Or if I on one of my days off, I might take 1 or 2 videos, for example. [00:34:10] And yeah, maybe something like that.

Payman Langroudi: And so is that more TikTok?

Sonia Rajput: No, I’m not really [00:34:15] good on TikTok. I’m really millennial. I don’t really know how to use it, to be honest with you. Really? Yeah, I [00:34:20] know it’s really struggling. I really struggle to use TikTok, so I focus on Instagram.

Payman Langroudi: All right. So then ideas for [00:34:25] those educational ones. They’re just the basic ones. Should I brush before or after breakfast. Those [00:34:30] sort of questions.

Sonia Rajput: Those kind of questions. Um, I just see whatever else comes up. And to be honest, [00:34:35] a lot of it is my nurses or my younger sister who’s like eight years younger than me. They’ll send me stuff which [00:34:40] is going viral, let’s say. So they’ll be like, maybe you should talk about something like this.

Payman Langroudi: Toothpaste.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah, that kind of stuff. [00:34:45] So someone giving me insight of what they think other people would like to see, that’s. Yeah, that’s what I find.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:34:50] then go on the process that the process of filming one of those videos. Are you the type of person who, [00:34:55] I don’t know, types out every single word you’re going to say and learns it off by heart?

Sonia Rajput: Oh, no, I’m very, very [00:35:00] like blasé, spontaneous. Yeah. Put the camera on. Okay. Um, so have you. [00:35:05]

Payman Langroudi: Got the words? Do the words just come to you.

Sonia Rajput: Because blah blah blah? Really? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because some people struggle [00:35:10] with that. Yeah. The camera goes on and the words don’t come to them and.

[TRANSITION]: They use.

Payman Langroudi: They say the wrong word. [00:35:15] Do you not even worry about that?

Sonia Rajput: I say the wrong word, but I’ll probably delete the first ten minutes and then I’ll [00:35:20] probably start again from there. So I just need to warm up and then I’ll be okay. That’s, that’s that tends [00:35:25] to be what I do.

Payman Langroudi: And then what about the actual production side of like do you use Canva? [00:35:30]

Sonia Rajput: Uh, no, I need to use Canva. I should probably start using Canva. I just use [00:35:35] Edit on Instagram and I’ve just downloaded Capcut recently, so I’m just starting to use Capcut, which is a good editing app. [00:35:40] So I think that’s something which makes things faster and easier. Does subtitles for you as those emojis on it, that [00:35:45] kind of stuff. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And how much do you pay attention to the metrics?

[TRANSITION]: Um.

Sonia Rajput: I’d [00:35:50] probably check it like, yeah, maybe. Yeah, I probably would check it like once or twice [00:35:55] a week to see how like it’s doing.

Payman Langroudi: In what metric are you most interested in?

[TRANSITION]: Views.

Sonia Rajput: Views [00:36:00] the areas that like you can see the kind of people that are viewing it like male, female, you can see the area that’s viewing [00:36:05] it. Kind of hashtags you should be using. Um, yeah, I look into that. So if I don’t know how, [00:36:10] I’m, I don’t know how much benefit it is to change certain things like hashtags and stuff like. [00:36:15]

[TRANSITION]: That, right?

Sonia Rajput: Yeah it does. Yeah, it does make a difference. But I don’t know. I haven’t measured those specifically, but if something’s [00:36:20] doing well, I’ll just try and do more of that same kind of content, let’s say. And then I’ll. Yeah. That’s [00:36:25] what I’ll.

[TRANSITION]: Try.

Payman Langroudi: Do you focus on the first three seconds?

Sonia Rajput: Yeah, I try to go on. [00:36:30]

[TRANSITION]: What do you do first?

Sonia Rajput: Three seconds. Do you brush your teeth like this? No. Because [00:36:35] yeah, you’ve got to have a hook and then be like, hi, I’m Doctor Sonia.

[TRANSITION]: That’s it.

Payman Langroudi: So did that just come naturally [00:36:40] to you? Was that obvious to you that the first three seconds had to be amazing?

Sonia Rajput: No. I think the more you start [00:36:45] looking at these things online, then the more more of the, you know, the algorithm hears you.

[TRANSITION]: Teaching you how to do.

Sonia Rajput: People [00:36:50] teaching me. So they’re like the three seconds, the visual hook, the audio hook up, those kind [00:36:55] of things. So I just.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Super interesting because there’s loads of videographers. [00:37:00]

[TRANSITION]: There’s loads that.

Sonia Rajput: Reach out and.

[TRANSITION]: No, no, but loads of.

Payman Langroudi: Videographers who don’t understand social.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, true. Yeah. [00:37:05]

Payman Langroudi: They like they want to they want to make they want to make three hour movies.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The idea I did it. The first [00:37:10] three seconds is important. You need like, someone if there’s going to be a, like [00:37:15] a Prav calls it a social media ninja. Yeah. In a practice, that person needs to be [00:37:20] totally native to social media. Understand that the rooms are different. Yeah. Like [00:37:25] for instance, if you did a LinkedIn post, that is a different post to your Instagram post.

[TRANSITION]: Exactly. [00:37:30]

Payman Langroudi: And by the way, a different post to your TikTok post.

[TRANSITION]: Exactly. Which is why I’m not good at TikTok. [00:37:35] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it breaks my heart. Sometimes we get stuff that does really well on Instagram, does nothing on TikTok.

[TRANSITION]: I [00:37:40] know, and.

Payman Langroudi: Vice.

[TRANSITION]: Versa, and.

Payman Langroudi: Vice versa as well. Um, but it’s such an interesting time [00:37:45] because now we’ve got the number of followers you have is the is nowhere near as important [00:37:50] as it used to be. And that used to be a very convenient excuse for all [00:37:55] of us. Right. I’ve only got, I don’t know, enlightened, only got 25,000 followers. So we can’t get the reach [00:38:00] that someone else has got. But now the reach is determined by the content.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, [00:38:05] absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: That’s so interesting.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah, it is so interesting. It’s so weird how it’s such a huge part [00:38:10] of what we do now as well. I find that very strange sometimes to think about. Um, but I guess it’s more [00:38:15] digestible, accessible information for the public. Like, it’s an easy entry pathway to [00:38:20] get education and learn more about things. So yeah, that’s probably why it’s such a huge thing now. [00:38:25]

Payman Langroudi: Have you gone on LinkedIn?

Sonia Rajput: I made one, and I think since I made it, I don’t think I’ve opened it properly. So [00:38:30] now I need to do that again properly.

Payman Langroudi: The reach is interesting though.

[TRANSITION]: Really? Yeah yeah, yeah.

Sonia Rajput: I do get the email [00:38:35] saying, you know, someone’s done this with your profile, but I should really look into it a bit more. Again, I’m very [00:38:40] I’m very like I’m just going with the flow with 90% of the things that I do.

[TRANSITION]: As you can.

Sonia Rajput: Probably tell, I don’t know how [00:38:45] I do what I do. I’m just kind of like, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting you say that, right? Because [00:38:50] on this subject that we’re talking about now, you’re very like, yeah.

[TRANSITION]: True, true.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:38:55] yet you’ve got it down as something I’m just bumbling my way through.

[TRANSITION]: I feel like.

Sonia Rajput: I am.

[TRANSITION]: Though.

Sonia Rajput: I feel like [00:39:00] if I’m really busy for three months, I probably would have neglected my socials. And then if I know, okay, I want to push it [00:39:05] a little bit more. I think partly because I was moving to a new area, I knew I needed to build my name up a little bit more. [00:39:10] So I spent the last year, 18 months, trying to establish myself in London because I was well known [00:39:15] in Birmingham, but then to move to a whole new area, nobody really knows who you are or what you do or, you know, referrals from patients, [00:39:20] things like that. It takes a long time to build up a name. So I think I spent a lot more time and effort. So for [00:39:25] me now, I focus a lot more on what are visual cues, what are the hooks, what are the things I should be talking about? How [00:39:30] can I kind of raise awareness and content in this area? So yeah, so that’s why I’m probably at the forefront [00:39:35] of it now in my head.

Payman Langroudi: You used the eye at all.

Sonia Rajput: No.

Payman Langroudi: You really should. [00:39:40]

Sonia Rajput: See I’m super okay. Yeah I should which I, which which I one. Like which one. [00:39:45] Oh, just any.

Payman Langroudi: Chatgpt Gemini.

Sonia Rajput: Come up with some ideas for this.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:39:50] many.

Sonia Rajput: Interesting things.

Payman Langroudi: That I had. So my, my family’s away at the moment. Yeah. Okay. So [00:39:55] I’m by myself at home. Yeah. I had a one hour conversation with ChatGPT.

Sonia Rajput: One [00:40:00] hour.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. One hour.

Sonia Rajput: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And and the it was unbelievable. [00:40:05] Really unbelievable. Like it was like a shrink. Okay. And it [00:40:10] doesn’t stop because it keeps on asking a question at the end of its thing. You know, the voice version. So [00:40:15] I’ll tell you what. If you’ve got a half new iPhone. Okay. Yeah. There’s [00:40:20] that button, then the new button.

Sonia Rajput: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: That button.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah. I don’t have the new one.

Payman Langroudi: That’s.

Sonia Rajput: Got [00:40:25] the old one.

Payman Langroudi: But I think anyway, now they’ve, they’ve incorporated in Siri as well. Okay. I’ve mapped that button [00:40:30] to the voice of ChatGPT. Yeah. So like straight to any question straight away. [00:40:35] Just push that button and it’s in. It’s like it starts by itself. Um, but [00:40:40] the question doesn’t have to be tell me about Dubrovnik.

Sonia Rajput: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: I started [00:40:45] with tell me the difference between happiness, joy, contentment, pleasure. Yeah. [00:40:50]

Sonia Rajput: And that’s how that one hour conversation started. Oh, nice. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And and he went like, I’m [00:40:55] curious, are you struggling with this question? And I was like, yeah, yeah, a little bit because I’m confusing the difference. [00:41:00] And we went into my past. Yeah. And I suddenly realised, Jesus, man, Not only is, [00:41:05] uh, you know, salespeople going to lose their jobs, so are shrinks.

Sonia Rajput: That’s a shrink in your pocket, that is for sure. [00:41:10]

Payman Langroudi: So a podcast host, like, loads and loads and loads of people are going to lose their jobs. [00:41:15] You know, that’s. So let’s move on to these [00:41:20] current jobs and conversation.

[VIDEO PLAYING]: Breaking down the differences between happiness, [00:41:25] joy, contentment and pleasure can get philosophical. Did you come to any conclusions [00:41:30] in that chat, or was it more of an exploration.

Payman Langroudi: To see what finishes with the question? [00:41:35] Yeah.

Sonia Rajput: Nice.

Payman Langroudi: Um, the jobs themselves. [00:41:40]

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: I’d expect a little bit of trepidation here [00:41:45] before.

[TRANSITION]: So how do.

[VIDEO PLAYING]: People.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:41:50] do we turn it.

[TRANSITION]: Off?

Sonia Rajput: That’s why you were on there for an hour. We don’t know how to turn it off.

[TRANSITION]: Exactly, but.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:41:55] just keeps the conversation.

[TRANSITION]: Going. No. That’s good.

Payman Langroudi: Um, a bit of trepidation before walking [00:42:00] into these super jobs.

Sonia Rajput: Oh, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Did you have imposter syndrome?

Sonia Rajput: 100%. [00:42:05] Imposter syndrome? Yeah. You still. I still pinch myself to be like, am I really here doing what I’m doing? Is this, [00:42:10] you know, is this what I’m doing now at this point in my life? And, yeah. No, I’m so grateful. So happy [00:42:15] to be where I am. But I do sometimes think, am I good enough? You do question that for sure.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:42:20] so I remember the first time I went to a proper job, I’d call these proper.

[TRANSITION]: Jobs [00:42:25] proper jobs.

Payman Langroudi: The pricing blew me away. Like I couldn’t believe the prices [00:42:30] people were charging. And you know, a bit like when you come out of PhD and just [00:42:35] first time ever, you ask someone the price of something and you’re almost like scared of the number. [00:42:40]

Sonia Rajput: Yeah for sure.

Payman Langroudi: That happens every time you move to a more expensive practice.

Sonia Rajput: Sure you do. You [00:42:45] do think really are people like, you know, it’s big numbers to be charging for sure.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:42:50] I always it’s always funny for me how quickly you get used to those numbers.

Sonia Rajput: Right now.

[TRANSITION]: I’m not.

Sonia Rajput: Doing.

[TRANSITION]: Anything [00:42:55] less than this. No. I’m joking. It is pretty crazy.

Payman Langroudi: It’s acceleration. That’s exciting, [00:43:00] isn’t it? It’s not the speed itself. It’s like when you see those numbers for the first few times, you’re like, wow. But [00:43:05] then now the worst thing, the bad thing about it is, you know, God forbid something goes down. You want to leave these practices. [00:43:10] It’s really hard going the other way. Yeah. So just let’s let’s hear some [00:43:15] of the pricing. How much? How much is stuff in these prices?

Sonia Rajput: Um, so [00:43:20] the Beaconsfield I would say it’s, it’s, um, good for the area. So [00:43:25] occlusal composite is £200. Yeah, that’s pretty good.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, [00:43:30] occlusal plus one.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sonia Rajput: £200. Veneers are like [00:43:35] nine, nine, five.

[TRANSITION]: Which.

Payman Langroudi: Is like a big mod composite.

Sonia Rajput: Um, probably like three 5300. [00:43:40] 350. Yeah. And then.

[TRANSITION]: Only.

Sonia Rajput: Only about eight, nine five. [00:43:45] I’d say quite reasonable. Those ones are from. If it’s a single tooth then 1400. [00:43:50] But if it’s, um, multiple then probably 995 per veneer.

Payman Langroudi: Whitening.

Sonia Rajput: Whitening. [00:43:55] Enlightened 700. Standard whitening 495.

[TRANSITION]: 195. Yeah. [00:44:00]

Payman Langroudi: Okay, so that’s Beaconsfield.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Sonia Rajput: Central London. Um, includes [00:44:05] a composite 379379.

Payman Langroudi: For an occlusal.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Sonia Rajput: 379 for occlusal. [00:44:10] Mod would probably be like, 450. Uh onlays. I think [00:44:15] like 1100 crowns, probably 1100 veneers, about 1100 each. [00:44:20]

[TRANSITION]: Still not.

Payman Langroudi: As high as I thought it.

[TRANSITION]: Would be.

Sonia Rajput: Single tooth would be like 1800, maybe. Yeah. [00:44:25] Not too. But then you can’t outprice yourself, I guess, because there’s so much competition now.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:44:30] so. But then how often are you doing multiple veneer cases in. [00:44:35] It must be quite a lot right in.

Sonia Rajput: There is a lot going.

[TRANSITION]: On there for.

Sonia Rajput: Sure. Yeah. There’s a lot. All the time. [00:44:40] Um, for me, I’m still building building my list, let’s say for example. So um, maybe [00:44:45] done like two, two in the three month, three, four months I’ve been there.

Payman Langroudi: And so [00:44:50] did you. With both of these jobs, were there no patients?

Sonia Rajput: Um, Beaconsfield? No, [00:44:55] it was like pretty much a squat practice. So, um, it’s it was like 18 months, two years old when [00:45:00] I joined. So they’re still building. Tim’s has been around for 20 years, so I have taken over the dentist who’s left. [00:45:05] But, um, a lot of the patients, um, are still sometimes still want [00:45:10] to. They were trying to find that dentist, let’s say. So then I’m still building up partially, but also I’ve taken over a list there [00:45:15] as well. But they get a lot of new patients there because it’s been around for so long. There’s a huge kind of referral system going [00:45:20] on there.

Payman Langroudi: And Mark Hughes practice. Where do they get patients from? Marketing.

Sonia Rajput: Marketing?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:45:25] Prav works with them as well. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Um, so are there quite a lot of new patients [00:45:30] there is.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah. When the marketing is working really well, there’s a lot of new patients, which is really good, but it’s just finding [00:45:35] the balance of, um, initial free consultations and then paid consultations. So it does [00:45:40] I think being in a squat is very different to being in a well-established one. So I can really see the difference of the two. Um, [00:45:45] but, um, it was a great place for it’s been a great place for me to kind of [00:45:50] like have the time to do learn things and yeah, in that kind of way and learn other [00:45:55] aspects from Mark, which has been really good.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know a guy called Mike wise?

[TRANSITION]: No. [00:46:00]

Payman Langroudi: He was like, in my day, when I was your age, he was the undisputed [00:46:05] top dentist in the country.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, really? Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone agreed there wasn’t anyone who would say there was a better dentist [00:46:10] than him. And his thing was, if you’re super busy, make [00:46:15] your appointments longer so that you can get through the work quicker. And obviously, [00:46:20] if you’re not super busy, make your appointments longer so that you can, you know, get to know these [00:46:25] people.

Sonia Rajput: Spend time.

[TRANSITION]: With them, spend.

Payman Langroudi: Time with them so that they refer friends and family.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:46:30]

Payman Langroudi: And I think that it’s an interesting thing because people want to leave NHS, go [00:46:35] to private. And sometimes I’ve done, I’ve introduced people to, to people who’ve got, you know, ten private [00:46:40] practices, always within ten practice private practices. There is space for [00:46:45] someone to build a new book. But people are worried about [00:46:50] that, right? Because it’s not patience. What’s your advice? What’s your advice? To go for a job like [00:46:55] that and make the most of it.

Sonia Rajput: You have to. I think if you know you want to go into that [00:47:00] kind of, um, if you’re say you’re new to private dentistry, I think you have to be willing to grow [00:47:05] slowly. Before Tim’s place, I was at another squad practice. Um, but then two squad [00:47:10] practices for me was just too much like, financially, it wasn’t working for me. Um, so I had to make that [00:47:15] decision to continue with masks. And then I was lucky enough to get Tim soon after. So then I had [00:47:20] the a stable one and then one that’s kind of like, um, Marx’s stable now. I’ve been there for over 12, [00:47:25] 18 months now, so. But at the beginning it was it was still new. Um, yeah. But you do need to put [00:47:30] in the time and effort and be prepared that it’s not going to be as quick as it was before, because especially when you’ve been in a [00:47:35] regular job. So I was in Scotland for five years before it was like referrals were coming through. It’s really easy for me, like [00:47:40] it’s kind of guaranteed, essentially essential work was there.

Payman Langroudi: How far ahead were you booked in Scott Arms. [00:47:45]

Sonia Rajput: Like 2 or 3 months in advance. I was really busy there. Like it was really good.

[TRANSITION]: And so.

Payman Langroudi: It’s getting your head around [00:47:50] the idea of only being booked sometimes 2 or 3 days in.

[TRANSITION]: Advance. Yeah.

Sonia Rajput: As if that was like, oh my God, there’s so [00:47:55] many gaps next week. It scared me for sure. And, um, it was a big thing to get used to, a big financial [00:48:00] hit for me as well, because of moving to a new area and saying goodbye to certain, you know, regular [00:48:05] patients and work that you do. So yeah, it was a struggle. But I think you have to put in the [00:48:10] time and effort and therefore put more effort into socials or putting more effort into the patients that I was with. So I’d [00:48:15] spend longer with them, talking to them, asking about the family. And then they were like, actually, can I bring my kids to come and see you? [00:48:20] You know, that kind of thing. And it works really nicely.

Payman Langroudi: Where do you see your clinical [00:48:25] career going next?

Sonia Rajput: Good question. Um, I really like doing [00:48:30] a bit of everything, to be honest with you. I really like generally just talking to, um, [00:48:35] people, building upon, um, the regular recalls and relationships that you have with them. I love that aspect. [00:48:40] There was a period of time where I just did cosmetic dentistry, and I liked seeing them, but a lot of people [00:48:45] don’t continue after they’ve finished their journey, and I do kind of miss seeing people regularly. Um, so [00:48:50] I would always still keep a little bit of general. I do quite like seeing kids and families and things like that. So. And [00:48:55] then doing a line bleach blonde. But I do want to take on more of the more advanced cases. So I’ve done a few [00:49:00] kind of like full mouth rehabs, but I want to be doing a lot more of that because I just feel like it’s challenging, and I feel [00:49:05] like sometimes I need a good challenge to progress in the next stage of your career. So yeah, I’d like [00:49:10] to do more of that.

Payman Langroudi: So are you thinking Pankey like Mark Hughes [00:49:15] or.

[TRANSITION]: They.

Sonia Rajput: Have spoken about Pankey? Um.

[TRANSITION]: Just because.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah, all [00:49:20] those, all those nice advanced heavy ones. So but like I said, it takes a while for me to understand [00:49:25] something and for it to click. But when it does, I think it’s going to go really well for me. So I need [00:49:30] to just find a place that kind of matches my kind of learning needs. So I do need to look into those probably the next two years. [00:49:35]

Payman Langroudi: By the way, this this place is here. You can do it as well. You don’t have to travel all the way to America.

[TRANSITION]: I know, but yeah. [00:49:40]

Sonia Rajput: Sounds.

[TRANSITION]: Fun as well.

Payman Langroudi: There’s this thing FMR. Summit. Um, I mean, [00:49:45] it’s all about full mouth rehabs, right?

[TRANSITION]: Um, even.

Sonia Rajput: Just full on occlusal occlusion courses. [00:49:50] Um, just to take it to understand that next level. Yeah, things [00:49:55] like that is probably my next step.

Payman Langroudi: What about facial aesthetics? Because [00:50:00] some people really make it work. And then a lot of people are very uncomfortable with [00:50:05] it. It’s a bit outside our remit.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about all this. What is all this about? [00:50:10] And like what is all that like? Like, are you having conversations with your patients about [00:50:15] the cream they put on their face?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Sonia Rajput: No. When you say it like that, it does sound pretty bizarre. But I got into skincare [00:50:20] because, um, my family’s medical, my brother’s a GP derm. [00:50:25] So skincare has always been in my family. I learned a lot about it from my own self over lockdown. [00:50:30] And then I thought, why not share this knowledge with other people? So I actually just started talking about it on kind of [00:50:35] like socials. I don’t talk about it a lot in my clinic, if I’m being honest with you. So my Dental environments, [00:50:40] I find it difficult to come up with a conversation. The probably most entry pathway I would get into facial aesthetics [00:50:45] is talking about the masters. Um, when I’m assessing their, you know, TMJ and feeling the [00:50:50] masters, then I’ll be like, actually, you should consider kind of Botox. Then I do facial aesthetics, all this kind of other [00:50:55] things that are available for you. So that’s the only real pathway I find is quite easy to add it to a dental examination. [00:51:00] Yeah. But if I was to be like to you, I have maybe once or twice said to somebody [00:51:05] only once I’ve met them a good few times. You’ve, I’ve noticed that dark pigmentation area on, on like [00:51:10] the side of the face when I was assessing this. Like, does that concern you and mention it whether they pull up like [00:51:15] ask me more questions about it, I won’t push it, but I do find it difficult to bring that up in conversation for sure. I [00:51:20] think it is tricky, but I think, um, the easiest one entry point would be kind of master Botox [00:51:25] and then progressing from there.

Payman Langroudi: How far have you gone into it yourself? I mean, are you able to do Botox? [00:51:30]

Sonia Rajput: Yeah, I can do everything. Um, and then I did, um, work at a facial aesthetics clinic [00:51:35] for, like, one day a week for about six months. And I really enjoyed it. And it gave me really good exposure and knowledge and confidence [00:51:40] with it. So that’s why I’ve now preferred to kind of keep it separate to dentistry, like I’ll do it in central London. [00:51:45] I find there’s a huge demand for it. Patients are happy to come in to one dental clinic and do it, do everything [00:51:50] there. But in a squat practice where you’re still trying to build up dentistry, to then try and sell them aesthetics as [00:51:55] well, I do feel like it’s too much Sally. Sally and I don’t like being too Sally. Um, so then I prefer [00:52:00] to kind of keep it in a separate.

Payman Langroudi: But had you had all this training before you even got these two jobs?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. [00:52:05]

Payman Langroudi: So was that a part of, like, the reason why people gave you the jobs, but like, maybe I.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah, maybe. Yeah. [00:52:10] That’s true. Actually, Tim really liked that I had the facial aesthetics knowledge. He thought it’d be a good thing to add to his practice. [00:52:15] Um, Mark did like that as well, but I don’t think we have loads of that there. Um, maybe it will grow more in the future. [00:52:20] But yeah, Tim for sure did like that. I did that aspect. So somebody in the clinic would be able to do those, those treatments. [00:52:25]

Payman Langroudi: Neither of them are marketing specifically for it.

Sonia Rajput: No. But since I got there, I said, [00:52:30] why don’t we send out a few emails? Because they have a huge patient list. If you’ve got a huge patient list, it makes sense to [00:52:35] kind of send something out. So yeah, we do send um, let’s say email marketing out to them a few times. Um, [00:52:40] because, yeah, I’ve been there for six months now. So we’ve sent like three, three email marketing’s out.

Payman Langroudi: What would you say for [00:52:45] someone who knows nothing about it to the point that you are now with your sort of experience [00:52:50] in.

[TRANSITION]: It, in.

Sonia Rajput: Aesthetics.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Facial.

Sonia Rajput: Facial aesthetics.

Payman Langroudi: What’s, first of all, what’s [00:52:55] the timeline from zero, 0 to 60?

[TRANSITION]: Like it is.

Sonia Rajput: Hard. I think it’s.

[TRANSITION]: Really [00:53:00] hard to.

Payman Langroudi: Training. Did you actually.

[TRANSITION]: Do? Yeah.

Sonia Rajput: Training. I did a basic, um, [00:53:05] filler and Botox course. You can do that in 1 or 2 days. And I did acquisition aesthetics. [00:53:10] So that was probably about five years ago. Um, and I don’t think I felt confident coming out of that [00:53:15] for sure. You don’t, because suddenly we’re going from giving local anaesthetic to now going [00:53:20] on to bone levels and, you know, different layers of the face. Um, whereas when I did, [00:53:25] I did a derma medical course where I literally spent one whole day doing treatment on five [00:53:30] different faces and I could do any kind of filler I wanted to. It was like an advanced filler course. Um, that gave me the [00:53:35] kind of confidence that was about a year ago, gave me the confidence to treat literally anything. [00:53:40] But throughout that, I’ve been doing courses on kind of noses with like doctor to her Jabba. She’s really [00:53:45] good for noses. Non-surgical rhinoplasty, um, and the skin course I did in lockdown, [00:53:50] but I was doing training in lockdown and I just spent I had time to learn about it. But you have to be sitting, [00:53:55] sit there and willing to put in the time to learn about it. You can’t just be like one day course and I got it like it [00:54:00] does take time and effort, but because I enjoy learning about it and I like taking skin care aspects for myself, [00:54:05] I found it really, really useful.

Payman Langroudi: So what bits of it are sort of easy, you [00:54:10] know, low hanging fruits and what bits of it are worrying.

Sonia Rajput: I think Botox [00:54:15] is probably the easiest thing for any dentist to kind of get into.

[TRANSITION]: Unforgiving?

Sonia Rajput: I think so, [00:54:20] yeah. And it wears off. Um, but obviously once it’s in there, you can’t reverse it until three months later. I think filler [00:54:25] scares people more because it could do vascular occlusions. And unless you’re comfortable with, let’s say, [00:54:30] surgical stuff, um, it is a different kind of ball game. And to be confident in the different levels of [00:54:35] the facial layers of the skin and things like.

[TRANSITION]: That, I.

Payman Langroudi: Feel this isn’t only lips, right?

[TRANSITION]: Oh [00:54:40] no, it.

Sonia Rajput: Could be like the cheek. It could be kind of like tear trough. It could be like the jawline. The chin.

Payman Langroudi: Which areas? The worrying [00:54:45] areas near the eyes.

Sonia Rajput: Probably the nose.

[TRANSITION]: It’s quite scary.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah, because it has, like the blood vessels that [00:54:50] can, um, cause blockages. Um, but also I feel like things [00:54:55] like chin and cheek are relatively straightforward. And I think things like chin would work really well for dentistry [00:55:00] because, you know, class two, skeletal patterns and things like that, you can kind of tie that into after you’ve done [00:55:05] someone’s ortho. So I think those are kind of the good basic ones to get into. But yes, it can [00:55:10] be really, really scary for sure. And I think you have to have good mentors. Luckily, I have access to good mentors. So, um, [00:55:15] to, um, like surgical doctors that I have access to, if I, um, [00:55:20] get any major struggles, they’d be like, right, I need some advice. What would you recommend? And they’re great. And they’re the ones I trained with [00:55:25] in Cockfosters. So they’re like a surgical medical team. So I’m quite fortunate to have some really [00:55:30] good mentors, to be honest with you.

Payman Langroudi: So now the kind of work you’re doing, there must be an [00:55:35] element of, for instance, plastic. Do you refer that [00:55:40] if you want to lift the gum or something.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Sonia Rajput: Like gum.

[TRANSITION]: Lifts.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah, yeah. [00:55:45] Send them. I refer those out, but I do internally. Internally Tim can do them. But in [00:55:50] Mark’s place I’ll send them out to kind of, um, like R.W. Perry, for example.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm. [00:55:55]

Payman Langroudi: And and how involved are you in that discussion? I mean.

[TRANSITION]: Quite a.

Sonia Rajput: Lot actually. [00:56:00] You know, I work really closely with one of the periodontists there. So like, well what’s up about a case. And I’ll be like how [00:56:05] much do you think we should lift this up. And so yeah, I’ve been. He also worked at Scott Arms with me. So I built a good relationship. [00:56:10] So I feel like I learned a lot in that stage and just build upon it. It’s always hard when you have to find new [00:56:15] people to send to, but luckily I’ve been able to keep that. So his name’s Devin and he’s works at RW [00:56:20] perio. And I’ve been a great he’s a great periodontist to work with and to learn a lot of things as well. If I have questions I [00:56:25] can ask him. I think.

[TRANSITION]: What else.

Payman Langroudi: Are you referring and what else are you doing? I mean, are you are you doing endo? [00:56:30]

Sonia Rajput: No, I don’t like.

[TRANSITION]: Endo.

Payman Langroudi: Referring it.

[TRANSITION]: All. Yeah.

Sonia Rajput: Just in-house. In-house Endo surgical [00:56:35] with some teeth I don’t do. So I’ll send that referrals in-house. Um, so yeah, [00:56:40] other than endo and Such cool wisdom teeth. I’ll do pretty much everything else, so I’ll do normal extractions. [00:56:45]

[TRANSITION]: Here we go.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah, I don’t mind perio.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t.

[TRANSITION]: Refer?

Sonia Rajput: Yeah, I quite like perio. Unless it’s really [00:56:50] bad. Then I’ll refer to RW perio.

Payman Langroudi: I do enjoy referring perio. You know, [00:56:55] I used to do a lot of perio. Yeah, I do a lot of deep scaling, whatever it was.

[TRANSITION]: It’s quite nice sometimes.

Sonia Rajput: Not all the time, [00:57:00] but it’s nice. Like, let’s say.

[TRANSITION]: Once, but.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s say, let’s say you’ve got an older patient, right? And now you’re [00:57:05] considering bridge or implant or whatever. Yeah. But for me I wanted the periodontist to make that decision. [00:57:10]

[TRANSITION]: Fine. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the always often talk about, you know, what’s the difference [00:57:15] between a good periodontist and a great periodontist? For me, it’s the [00:57:20] great periodontist. The patient comes back pre-sold on all the rest of the treatment.

[TRANSITION]: Okay. True.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:57:25] know, like. That’s correct. You want the periodontist, say, right. This tooth and this tooth can take a bridge.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Until [00:57:30] the patient. That’s the right thing to do. Patient comes back. The expert said, let’s go ahead.

[TRANSITION]: True. [00:57:35]

Payman Langroudi: You know, so sometimes there was benefit in referring.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: To get this sort [00:57:40] of expert to corroborate your treatment plan. You know, and I always think in practices there should be [00:57:45] more of that.

Sonia Rajput: That’s true. Encouraging the other. Yeah. That’s true.

Payman Langroudi: Hygienist.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:57:50]

Payman Langroudi: I’m the hygienist. Hygienist should be incentivised.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: On making on [00:57:55] on on turnover. Yeah. So then the hygienist you know follows [00:58:00] up and says what you just said.

[TRANSITION]: True.

Payman Langroudi: And you know why not. I don’t understand why not.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:58:05] I mean I do understand why it doesn’t happen.

[TRANSITION]: But.

Payman Langroudi: People get themselves all sorts of situations [00:58:10] with even whitening, you know, like who’s who’s doing the whitening, the hygienist or the or the dentist. Yeah, [00:58:15] but surely there’s a way of making it, like a three way relationship between you, the patient, the hygienist. [00:58:20] Yeah. And the principal as well.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get on to [00:58:25] the darker part. Undiscussed errors. Mistakes you’ve. [00:58:30]

[TRANSITION]: Made.

Payman Langroudi: We like to talk about clinical mistakes so that everyone can learn from [00:58:35] each other’s mistakes.

[TRANSITION]: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: Because generally we tend to hide our mistakes, don’t we?

[TRANSITION]: Sure. [00:58:40]

Payman Langroudi: So in the spirit of learning from each other’s mistakes, what [00:58:45] comes to mind when I say what some of the biggest sort of clinical errors you’ve made?

Sonia Rajput: Um, [00:58:50] so there’s a reason I don’t talk. I don’t do endo because it’s I’ve perforated [00:58:55] a few. So those are huge clinical ones, which put me off it. I think literally as I was [00:59:00] leaving my foundation practice before going to private practice, my first, um, my last patient [00:59:05] was redoing this RCT, and it’s probably the last week before I was leaving and I perforated and I was [00:59:10] like, crap, I am I even ready to be going into private dentistry? And it was really, really scary. Um, but you [00:59:15] have to own up to it. And then I said to the patient, I’m really sorry. This is what’s happened. It’s like literally two central, [00:59:20] um, incisors doing. Um, but.

[TRANSITION]: Luckily. [00:59:25]

Payman Langroudi: Both.

[TRANSITION]: Of them.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah. It was like going through these old crowns.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, honestly.

Sonia Rajput: It was so bad. It was so.

[TRANSITION]: Bad. [00:59:30]

Sonia Rajput: Oh, God, it was so bad. But, you know, he was fine. And he was like, oh, there’s no issue. So you [00:59:35] can be quite lucky in that respect. And I owned up to and explained the situation.

[TRANSITION]: Um, what.

Payman Langroudi: Did [00:59:40] you learn?

Sonia Rajput: It made me too stressed. I didn’t like how stressed I was doing it. And I thought, [00:59:45] there’s no point in going to work being this stressed about something, and I didn’t want to do any more after [00:59:50] that, to be honest with you.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But if we if we’re going to sort of say a learning [00:59:55] point from that. Yeah. Because some kid is going to be doing his first.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Drilling through the crown. [01:00:00] It’s the root axis that your brain should be completely focussed [01:00:05] on.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Not the crown axis.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes those [01:00:10] two things aren’t coincident.

Sonia Rajput: It’s because the front two central sizes were crowned. So [01:00:15] I don’t you don’t know what the original shape was like obviously underneath. So yes, they look straight, but actually [01:00:20] um, the root was obviously at the angle. So yes, you don’t go straight, you’ve got to go at the angle [01:00:25] of the root. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like constantly in your head you have to keep visualising where is [01:00:30] the root. Where is the root. Where is the.

[TRANSITION]: Root. Yeah.

Sonia Rajput: That’s that was very.

[TRANSITION]: Scary for.

Sonia Rajput: Sure. Um [01:00:35] I guess difficult clinical scenarios. Not necessarily. [01:00:40] It was probably more so dealing with difficult patients, really, to be honest with you. So [01:00:45] I had I obviously when you work in a practice, people who work with you want to have some [01:00:50] work done. So let’s say your nurses or your, um, colleagues. So I had a colleague who wanted [01:00:55] me to do her treatment. So her Invisalign, um, and I said, yeah, okay, fine. I didn’t [01:01:00] really know her that well, I took her. I did it for her. But when you remove attachments, there’s always a risk [01:01:05] of scratches to the enamel. I scratch the enamel. Um, I didn’t see that I had scratched it, but she [01:01:10] was very upset about it, and so it got escalated. Um, and I said, okay, I’m [01:01:15] really sorry. I can buff it out for you. Um, it didn’t they didn’t want it to be buffed [01:01:20] out. Didn’t want me to touch the enamel any further. And so, yeah, I mean, that escalated for sure. So there are difficult [01:01:25] scenarios. There are difficult patients. Um.

[TRANSITION]: And it can be very question.

Payman Langroudi: Right. Because, okay, [01:01:30] that was someone in the dental profession. So they’re doubly focussed in. But you don’t think of removing [01:01:35] attachments is a difficult thing to do.

[TRANSITION]: Like the least stressful part of the whole of.

Sonia Rajput: The whole treatment, [01:01:40] right?

Payman Langroudi: So has that affected you? Like when you remove attachments?

[TRANSITION]: It does. I panic. [01:01:45]

Sonia Rajput: Every time I remove.

[TRANSITION]: An attachment.

Payman Langroudi: Outside the panic. But do you say something to the patient?

[TRANSITION]: Do you.

Payman Langroudi: Do [01:01:50] you do it differently now than.

[TRANSITION]: I probably.

Sonia Rajput: Do? Say to patients more now. Like there’s always a risk of micro scratches [01:01:55] on the surface of.

[TRANSITION]: Your stuff out.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah. Which we can always buff out. And 99.9% [01:02:00] of people are going to be happy with that. Um, but yeah, I guess you learn from each [01:02:05] situation.

Payman Langroudi: It’s important though, isn’t it? Yeah, because we should all learn from that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: We should all learn [01:02:10] from.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: True story.

[TRANSITION]: For sure.

Payman Langroudi: What about like, in [01:02:15] the sort of under promise over deliver area? Um, because sometimes [01:02:20] let’s say you’re building up this patient list.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: At Mark Hughes’s place, and [01:02:25] you’re only booked two days ahead. Sometimes in that situation, you take on a case [01:02:30] against your better judgement or you over promise on [01:02:35] the result against your better judgement. Your better judgement would.

[TRANSITION]: Say to.

Payman Langroudi: Under-promise [01:02:40] on the result, right? Because that happened. I mean, we’re talking cosmetic dentistry as [01:02:45] well, right? So it’s such a subjective thing.

[TRANSITION]: True.

Payman Langroudi: Have you had have you had a situation where you’ve done the [01:02:50] smile and then the patient afterwards come back and said, not happy with the way it looks?

Sonia Rajput: Yeah, [01:02:55] I have had that. I think more so. Um, luckily my earlier years I’ve had that, um, I touch [01:03:00] wood. I haven’t had anything in the last few years, but I’ve learned from. I never used to do like a trial smile [01:03:05] stage for anyone. So now for every patient, I’ll do a trial smile so they kind of know what I think looks [01:03:10] nice for them. And then they’ll also have that idea as well. Um, and then I always most people, you see all these [01:03:15] reaction videos where people say, wow, I love my teeth. But I can tell you that 90% of people, when they have [01:03:20] their composites done, they are shocked because they do not look too big. No, just generally they don’t look how they did. [01:03:25] They didn’t. They don’t know what they think they’re going to look like when you have your teeth done. So I always say before I [01:03:30] even give them the mirror, you might not like what you see initially it looks really nice from here, but just give yourself [01:03:35] a week to get used to it and any changes you want to make, let me know.

Sonia Rajput: I’m not going to sit here and do all these little changes for you right [01:03:40] now. Just go home and enjoy it. And then they already have that in their head that okay, maybe [01:03:45] I’m not going to like it. I say, look, it looks nice, but don’t panic if you’re not 100% happy. We’re going [01:03:50] to come back in a week and we’ll make some changes. The good thing with compensators you can change things anyway. So because I had a few [01:03:55] cases a few years ago where like, I don’t know if I like it, oh my God, I look so different. [01:04:00] And you know, me and the nurse are there. Like, it looks really, really good. So you have to give them a few days. They came [01:04:05] back a week later. They’re like, yeah, no, I love it. But it is a huge shock to people smiling. I think sometimes people don’t [01:04:10] know what to expect. Like you look at a perfect set of teeth online and then once you put that into your face, it is [01:04:15] different. Um, and not everyone understands that that’s how they’re going to feel. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I think [01:04:20] it’s also like you should give a health warning that that your friends and family will also be [01:04:25] like that the first time they see.

[TRANSITION]: It.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, because the first time the patient sees it, they might, you know, you’ve [01:04:30] already told them. You might not like it.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Then they get used to it. I’ve had patients say delighted [01:04:35] over the moon. Go home. Someone said something. Come back. Don’t like them.

[TRANSITION]: Anymore.

Payman Langroudi: You know, [01:04:40] you need to warn people that that might happen to you.

[TRANSITION]: True.

Sonia Rajput: But it’s like whenever I go to get my hair [01:04:45] done, they always ask you in the chair, do you like it? And you’re like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I like it. I don’t like it. I get, I [01:04:50] get in the car. The first thing I do is look through, look in the mirror up close, and I look at everything. And the only a week later [01:04:55] I’m like, okay, fine, I really like it. So it’s for me, it’s the same thing as when you go to get your teeth done or something [01:05:00] done, and they’re not going to say it straight away to my face. They need time for it to like, sink in, get used to it, and then their [01:05:05] face, um, and then come back a week later. And if there’s anything major, obviously I would fix it for them. But touch wood. I’ve [01:05:10] had no issues since I’ve started saying that to people.

Payman Langroudi: You know the funny thing, yeah, we think [01:05:15] giving our time is valuable and we measure things by the hour. But [01:05:20] when I’m a consumer, I want things done quicker. Yeah. And [01:05:25] it’s a funny thing. Yeah. Because like I’ve sometimes I’ve been at the hairdresser. Yeah. I [01:05:30] mean, you wouldn’t believe it. Yeah. Look at me now. But sometimes I’d be at the hairdresser and the guy’s taking too long. Yeah. [01:05:35] Being this sort of, I don’t know.

Sonia Rajput: I agree.

Payman Langroudi: Doing doing this, that and the other. Offering [01:05:40] me a cup of tea. Whatever. Like he’s doing the private dentistry thing.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah I agree.

Payman Langroudi: And really, I just want to be out [01:05:45] as quick as possible. I’m always time poor.

[TRANSITION]: Agreed.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And as at [01:05:50] the dentist, we’ve got this worry that if I send this patient out [01:05:55] with a £300 bill and he’s only been in my chair for 15 minutes, he might not see the value in that. [01:06:00] But it depends on the patient. Right.

[TRANSITION]: I think you have to assess the patient.

Sonia Rajput: Some people want to be out. And I just say [01:06:05] to them, I’m going to do this as fast as I can for you because I know you want to be out of here. So then they’re like, girl, thank you so much. [01:06:10] Even if the bill has been X amount for I know they’ve only been in the chair for half an hour rather than 90 minutes. [01:06:15] They appreciate that I’ve done it faster for them. But you’re right. You have to assess the patient and what’s important to them. [01:06:20]

Payman Langroudi: Beaconsfield patient is different to London patients.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the main difference?

Sonia Rajput: You get people [01:06:25] from all sorts of places in central London, don’t you? Like everyone. Um. And then making the time and effort [01:06:30] to travel somewhere in central London. So they probably would want you to spend more time doing the treatment, [01:06:35] whereas in Beaconsfield maybe get more, um, people who want to be done a bit faster, um, because [01:06:40] it’s somewhere local. They want to go more quickly. Um, I do find, yeah, I find it’s they [01:06:45] are different patients wherever you go.

[TRANSITION]: Depending more.

Payman Langroudi: Exacting in Beaconsfield. Like harder [01:06:50] to please.

[TRANSITION]: Harder to do in London.

Sonia Rajput: No, I’d say it’s probably [01:06:55] about the same. I don’t think that’s a big there’s a big difference with that.

Payman Langroudi: What about the willingness to go ahead like the conversion? [01:07:00]

[TRANSITION]: Conversion?

Sonia Rajput: I do find a little bit more tricky further out when there’s when there’s less people [01:07:05] and still more competition. I think they are price hunting. Whereas I think in central London, which [01:07:10] you would think is crazy because there’s so many places, there’s just so many people here. So I feel like once they kind of set and [01:07:15] chosen the place they want to go to, they will just go to that place. But I do feel like people shop more in the outskirts, [01:07:20] outskirts, because there’s a dental practice opposite the road or dental practice, um, just near their house in another [01:07:25] way. So then they will shop around in there.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, maybe that’s also reflected by the fact that that pack’s been there for 20 years. [01:07:30]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. True, true.

Payman Langroudi: People know what they’re going to get.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, true.

Sonia Rajput: It is, it is. It’s [01:07:35] not always as glamorous as it might look. It does. There’s not every patient is going to say yes to everything. Um, [01:07:40] so I just try and focus on educating them all and making everyone feel like they’ve learned [01:07:45] something from each consultation with me, not just here’s your treatment plan. So that’s what I try and focus on more so. And [01:07:50] then if they if they value it, then they come back.

Payman Langroudi: And the funny thing is, nothing is as glamorous as it looks from [01:07:55] the outside.

[TRANSITION]: Absolutely not. No.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I know that there’s a thing about, you know, the first time you [01:08:00] get into Harley Street, Wimpole Street, it’s almost like this wonderful dream of childhood coming [01:08:05] true. And yet it’s a nightmare working in the West End. Yeah. [01:08:10] No walk by traffic at all. You know, massive competition everywhere.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:08:15]

Payman Langroudi: Um, most people in the West End booked 1 or 2 days ahead, you know, at the most.

[TRANSITION]: Really? [01:08:20] Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, but there are there are notable exceptions, of course. Yeah. Um, [01:08:25] but, you know, from the outside things look so glossy. And then you get inside. [01:08:30]

Sonia Rajput: Reality can be very different.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I reflect that my kids go to school in South Ken. [01:08:35] Yeah. And I used to be. Every time I go south, I have this special feeling like, oh, South is [01:08:40] really nice. Yeah. Now that I’ve dropped my kids every day. And I was just, like, feeling like nothing. Yeah. [01:08:45] Like, it’s a similar thing, isn’t it? Like, if your practice could be in Knightsbridge [01:08:50] or something.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re so super excited the first day you walk in that there’s going to be this amazing place. [01:08:55]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But I reflect on I used to treat older patients in Kent [01:09:00] in the seaside town.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And I was killing it man. Everyone was [01:09:05] so like amazingly like happy and and respectful and had time [01:09:10] and had money and everything was perfect. And then I thought, well look at me. I’m amazing.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:09:15]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s go for central London. I went to central London city and my God, it was different. The patients [01:09:20] were like. I was so hard to talk to.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Time poor. And you know, [01:09:25] all of them were salesmen in the end. And so they were like, looking out for being sold to. And, [01:09:30] you know, on paper, you might say older patients on a coastal town are [01:09:35] nowhere near as easy to sell high end treatments to as city boys. But actually. [01:09:40]

[TRANSITION]: Completely.

Payman Langroudi: The opposite.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, completely.

Sonia Rajput: It’s true. And I think it comes down [01:09:45] to. Yeah, it comes down to a few factors. Some might be the kind of people that you had and the relationships [01:09:50] you built with them were different. They had more trust in you, maybe in a different way, or they were seeing you for a long time. [01:09:55] Um, yeah, for sure. It makes a huge difference.

Payman Langroudi: From the outside [01:10:00] you look so happy.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: What are you struggling with?

Sonia Rajput: Um. Good [01:10:05] question. I try not to take on too much, too many stresses. [01:10:10] I feel like life is too short. Um, I think it can be really stressful doing [01:10:15] dentistry, so I like to make my life as stress free as possible. So I [01:10:20] do get anxious with things. I do have internal anxieties, but anything I can do to kind of relax myself, [01:10:25] I’ll focus on that and put a priority. Top of my list. Is self-care always going forward?

Payman Langroudi: What are [01:10:30] you? What do you reckon is going to be the sort of next move.

Sonia Rajput: Next move, [01:10:35] next move for me is probably just focusing on what I’m doing now. I don’t think there’s any huge thing [01:10:40] I want to tick off at any point in time. Um, maybe in the future it’s having a [01:10:45] practice. But for me right now, I’m happy doing what I’m doing and keeping this aspect of my life as it is, and then probably [01:10:50] focusing on family as my next, as my next point.

Payman Langroudi: So when you say maybe have [01:10:55] a practice, you’re really saying maybe, as in you’re really not decided?

Sonia Rajput: Not decided. No. [01:11:00] Um, before I probably would have said yes. I definitely want a practice. I definitely want to do that. But I think so [01:11:05] many other stresses come with having a practice. I kind of like having to go home and switch off. Whereas [01:11:10] I think if you have a practice, you take a lot of that home, don’t you? You never switch off if it’s your own business. So [01:11:15] I don’t know if that’s something I’d want to take on anytime soon. So for me, it’s a big question mark. [01:11:20]

[TRANSITION]: Well, how old are you?

Sonia Rajput: Uh, 29.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: You got plenty of time.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You can sit on your hands [01:11:25] for eight years and still be 37.

[TRANSITION]: But, you know, you feel.

Sonia Rajput: The pressures from everyone to to [01:11:30] do things sooner. I don’t.

[TRANSITION]: Know, competitive.

Payman Langroudi: Pressure.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe a competitive person.

Sonia Rajput: I’m not competitive [01:11:35] person. But most people say to me, oh, when are you going to get your own practice? When are you going to do this? Like, do I need to be doing that? [01:11:40] Is that something I should be doing? But no, it’s not a desire for me right now. It used to be, but [01:11:45] not anymore.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s quite interesting to make a decision early. [01:11:50] I know, I know, it’s also incorrect to rule something out.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:11:55] I’ve come across people who make a decision early never to have a practice. And then they focus [01:12:00] on teaching. They focus on other aspects of life. Yeah. Like, for all I know, you’re going [01:12:05] to have two kids and work one day a week or stop working altogether. You know, that’s another way.

[TRANSITION]: Of.

Payman Langroudi: Doing [01:12:10] it. Yeah. Um, but if you’ve got, like, a thing in your head that says, I [01:12:15] will one day have a practice, it’s kind of interesting to make that decision earlier because [01:12:20] just from the simple point, as I said before, about learning from people.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:12:25]

Payman Langroudi: If you’re learning from associates on how to be a super associate is one thing, or [01:12:30] learning from principles about how to be a super principle is another thing. It’s another way of thinking. [01:12:35] And in the same way as I said to you, you know, like if I was in Scott arms, I [01:12:40] would have been shadowing that guy day and.

[TRANSITION]: Night just.

Payman Langroudi: To understand his [01:12:45] brain. Yeah. You’ve got Mark Hughes and Tim Bradstock Smith, you know that you could be [01:12:50] learning things from. Right. Um, it’s interesting that that point [01:12:55] is interesting, right?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. True.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s, let’s let’s move [01:13:00] on. And we’re near the end of our time. If you did have a [01:13:05] dental practice, what do you reckon it would be like?

Sonia Rajput: Um. It’d [01:13:10] be. Yeah, it’d be one of these nice, luxurious places. Of [01:13:15] course it.

[TRANSITION]: Has to be.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah, it has to be. It’s like everything you see now, isn’t it? So I’m [01:13:20] quite like chill, friendly. I like, I quite like relaxed environment. So a small, [01:13:25] not too small, but small enough to, um, kind of have like a nice family feel [01:13:30] about it but have that luxury aspect to it. But um, yeah, who knows, who knows. [01:13:35]

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, things don’t necessarily have to be that way, right?

Sonia Rajput: They don’t. Maybe I could have. Maybe I could just buy [01:13:40] a running one that’s, you know, busy, busy already. And maybe that’s something I end up doing.

Payman Langroudi: But I’m saying [01:13:45] you don’t necessarily have to have this luxury practice.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. You don’t. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You could do all [01:13:50] sorts of things. Look at these guys. The twin dentists. Have you.

[TRANSITION]: Seen them?

Sonia Rajput: Yeah, I’ve seen them.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like they’re [01:13:55] exploiting the idea of people who want super cheap dentistry.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:14:00] And I guess they’re doing very well.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. True.

Sonia Rajput: But their clinics are still very fancy. [01:14:05] They know.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah.

Sonia Rajput: That’s the volume isn’t it. The volume of [01:14:10] um patients is there.

[TRANSITION]: I’m not sure what the.

Payman Langroudi: Business model is. Yeah. But, but there is a business model. Yeah. Which is [01:14:15] um, you know, direct to consumer aligners like Smiledirectclub.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:14:20]

Payman Langroudi: And then you’ve got very high end Invisalign and then this thing in between. And the [01:14:25] business model is that, I guess this thing in between where the dentist just takes a scan and then.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:14:30]

Payman Langroudi: But what I’m saying is, look, there are different positionings. Look, just in whitening, you’ve got you’ve got us. You’ve [01:14:35] got the boutique Positionings.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. You’ve got.

Payman Langroudi: To be valuable.

[TRANSITION]: Right? And I think.

Sonia Rajput: It depends [01:14:40] on the area that you’re in. If I’m being honest, I think it depends which location you’re in to decide what kind of practice [01:14:45] you’re going to be running.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but for instance, I know a couple of guys, they’ve opened a practice in Sheffield [01:14:50] and it’s very, very, very, very high end.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And and so, you know, [01:14:55] like on paper you might say, hey, if you’re in central London, go high end.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But in Sheffield [01:15:00] there’s no competition for high end.

[TRANSITION]: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: You know, so sometimes you have to think that way.

Sonia Rajput: Think outside the [01:15:05] box a little bit as well. Yeah. No. That’s true.

Payman Langroudi: How have you found being away from your family?

Sonia Rajput: Um, it was definitely [01:15:10] a struggle for the first three months. I think three months it takes to settle in anywhere. A new environment, new situations, [01:15:15] new job, new family as well. So, um, yeah, that was [01:15:20] hard for sure.

Payman Langroudi: But then, you know, just being dragged away from your friends and family.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I know, it’s horrible.

Payman Langroudi: Making. [01:15:25]

[TRANSITION]: New friends.

Sonia Rajput: All the time and yeah, every, every other week I’m in Birmingham.

[TRANSITION]: It’s okay. Where are you?

Sonia Rajput: Yeah, yeah, I’m [01:15:30] a home home girl.

Payman Langroudi: I think you know what happens if you do have kids? Yeah. Then that’s when the new social [01:15:35] circle will happen.

[TRANSITION]: In a lot.

Sonia Rajput: Of. A lot of my friends are around London, so no one’s [01:15:40] too far away, which is good. Um, my sister’s at uni, like in London, so I still have [01:15:45] a network around, which is there. Um, I don’t feel too isolated. And. Yeah, my husband’s great. He’s been, [01:15:50] like, my number one supporter, so he’s really good.

Payman Langroudi: Is he one of those busy, busy finance guys? [01:15:55]

[TRANSITION]: Is he like.

Sonia Rajput: No. Absolutely not.

[TRANSITION]: No he’s not.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah. No it’s good. He’s got a good balance.

[TRANSITION]: Oh well done.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah it helps me. [01:16:00] It helps me balance everything which is good.

Payman Langroudi: So this kind of millennial thing about sort of living your [01:16:05] best life.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of a Gen Z thing too, right?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Living your best life rather than struggling. [01:16:10]

Sonia Rajput: I think that’s what it is like. I probably would have said, um, I’d rather [01:16:15] focus on having more time. I, I work [01:16:20] to live. I don’t live to work. So I will make sure I work hard and then I will have really [01:16:25] good time. Me and my husband focus on having that time and energy to do what we want to do. Travel. Do what we want to [01:16:30] do. Is it selfish? Maybe, but we’re just living the best for each moment that we have.

Payman Langroudi: What else is?

[TRANSITION]: What [01:16:35] else are you.

Payman Langroudi: Supposed to do than think about.

[TRANSITION]: Yourself? It’s true.

Payman Langroudi: But you know one thing I’d say to you? [01:16:40] The bit between getting married and having kids, which where you’re at.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:16:45]

Payman Langroudi: Such a valuable.

[TRANSITION]: Piece. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Such a wonderful time.

Sonia Rajput: So I think why stress with other things right [01:16:50] now? This is a time to be enjoying my life. So yes, I could be doing the next thing and buying a practice, [01:16:55] doing this, doing that. But I’m really happy, really content and focussed on being happy and content. And then [01:17:00] when I enter the next phase of my life, then I’ll start looking at the next struggles to.

[TRANSITION]: To [01:17:05] face.

Payman Langroudi: What I’m saying is like like make it longer.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, true.

Payman Langroudi: The longer the better. Yeah. Because it’s such [01:17:10] a carefree time.

[TRANSITION]: True.

Payman Langroudi: Such a great travel, you know, do things. Yeah. Because once the kids come, it’s [01:17:15] just, like, so hard. Especially for you. The mother.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The first 8 or 9 years, you’re gone. [01:17:20] Yeah. And does that worry you? The thought. Does that worry.

[TRANSITION]: You? You [01:17:25] know, I think.

Payman Langroudi: There is no you in, kid.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. It does.

Sonia Rajput: I think I do [01:17:30] struggle. I think one of my motivation, one of the reasons, one of the things that motivates me is I think [01:17:35] I want to show that females can be independent, strong, hardworking and still have it [01:17:40] all. So I think I will struggle when it comes to having kids to be like, crap. No, I’m I’m so. [01:17:45]

[TRANSITION]: Can’t have it all.

Sonia Rajput: No, but it’s. So why is that? Why is that the case? That’s so sad.

[TRANSITION]: It’s so.

Sonia Rajput: Sad. [01:17:50]

Payman Langroudi: No one can have it all.

Sonia Rajput: It’s very sad. So that does make me upset for sure. So maybe I’m just [01:17:55] trying to.

Payman Langroudi: It depends what all is.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What all is, but you’ll see what I mean. They, [01:18:00] they they just take over.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Sonia Rajput: And then you probably never hear from me ever again.

[TRANSITION]: No [01:18:05] no.

Payman Langroudi: No, not necessarily that. Not necessarily that. But something’s got to give you know.

Sonia Rajput: No [01:18:10] it will for sure.

Payman Langroudi: And so what is it the thing that gives end up being holidays or [01:18:15] the types of holidays? Sometimes. Sometimes, by the way, health warning, sometimes the relationship.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, [01:18:20] true. Yeah, true.

Payman Langroudi: Because work can’t and the kids can’t and you know so [01:18:25] but it’s a funny thing because in this sort of millennial I [01:18:30] want what’s best for me. And I want to sit on beanbags on Fridays and read, [01:18:35] read books. You know, the notion of children where it’s a complete sacrifice thing. [01:18:40]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t sort of fit in very nicely in that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I do, I do.

Sonia Rajput: Think, where is that puzzle? [01:18:45] Where is that piece going to fit in my puzzle? I do think that all the time. So it’s that’s why [01:18:50] that hasn’t.

[TRANSITION]: Ended up.

Payman Langroudi: Kicking in. You know, in a way. You know, it’s it’s much nicer giving [01:18:55] a present than getting one.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah. Always.

Payman Langroudi: Kids are a bit like that.

[TRANSITION]: Okay, fine.

Payman Langroudi: Kids [01:19:00] are in the end I class it as that. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. They will.

Sonia Rajput: Be amazing.

Payman Langroudi: You’re constantly giving presents to [01:19:05] your kids. I don’t mean presents. Yeah, but I mean you’re constantly giving.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, constantly giving.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:19:10] giving is a nice feeling in the end.

[TRANSITION]: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: But. But I think it’s a funny thing [01:19:15] because, like, I feel like innocence is, you know, like, you know, when you were six years old, you realised [01:19:20] you’re never going to be Kylie Minogue or whatever. You know, I realise I’m never going to be a [01:19:25] footballer. And then when you’re 16, you realise I’m never going to be a spaceman.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then when [01:19:30] you’re 26, you realise you’re never going to be Elon Musk. And then when you’re 36, [01:19:35] you realise. And then what ends up happening is you lose more and more and more innocence.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:19:40]

Payman Langroudi: By the way, your parents get sick and die. You know, your your peers get sick and die. [01:19:45] Things like innocence starts going away. And then you just craving innocence again, and then you [01:19:50] have a kid. And then this innocent thing comes into the world. Yeah, yeah. And then that innocent [01:19:55] thing starts losing its innocence.

[TRANSITION]: Cycle starts again. Cycle starts again.

Payman Langroudi: And what I used to struggle with the [01:20:00] most was the pain. Having to go through the pain of growing up.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:20:05]

Payman Langroudi: Again.

[TRANSITION]: All over again.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And people will focus on the pleasure of growing up. Yeah. The first time he [01:20:10] scores a goal, the first time he tries ice cream. Amazing things right? But the pain of the [01:20:15] first time gets bullied. The first time doesn’t get invited to a party. First [01:20:20] time, everything. You know.

[TRANSITION]: All you say.

Sonia Rajput: Like.

[TRANSITION]: That. True.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And having to go through all of those and you [01:20:25] do with your kid, you go through it even worse.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I struggled with that notion. [01:20:30]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, but good luck.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I know you’re.

Sonia Rajput: Really making it sound.

[TRANSITION]: Fun. No. I’m joking. [01:20:35]

Sonia Rajput: It is a whole new era.

Payman Langroudi: You’ll enjoy. You’ll enjoy. But all I’m saying now is delay.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:20:40] No, thanks. Good advice.

Payman Langroudi: Your freezer, eggs, whatever it takes.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Who knows?

Sonia Rajput: Who knows?

[TRANSITION]: We’ll see. We’ve had [01:20:45] a couple.

Payman Langroudi: Of podcasts on.

[TRANSITION]: There. I know, I know.

Sonia Rajput: It’s crazy though, because everybody wants to, like, [01:20:50] be successful for a long period of time before they enter that phase of their life. It is tricky. It’s hard being a woman [01:20:55] for sure.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And look, it’s interesting on one side, you’re super ambitious.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:21:00]

Payman Langroudi: On the other side you’re saying, oh, my Fridays off it is.

Sonia Rajput: That is.

[TRANSITION]: Me.

Sonia Rajput: That’s literally me in [01:21:05] a nutshell for sure.

Payman Langroudi: Whereas in my day that those two things just wouldn’t fit together. I quite like the fact [01:21:10] that you can be that person now.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. And I.

Sonia Rajput: Like you, do have that flexibility in dentistry, which is really lucky. [01:21:15]

Payman Langroudi: Definitely.

Sonia Rajput: For sure, which I love.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to our final questions. Fantasy [01:21:20] dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive. Who would you have?

Sonia Rajput: Um, [01:21:25] I’m a huge Ariana Grande fan. I would love to see her. Like you [01:21:30] will hear me singing her.

[TRANSITION]: Songs, you.

Sonia Rajput: Know, like, literally since maybe I was 18. No, I do love her. So it’d be [01:21:35] cool to see her. She’s really successful, um, and just insanely talented, to be honest with you. So I’d just [01:21:40] love to meet her. Um, I have huge respect for Rhona Eskander. I think she’s, like, actually [01:21:45] an icon. To be honest with you. It would be great to have.

[TRANSITION]: A dinner party.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah, sure.

[TRANSITION]: Why not? Never [01:21:50] met her before.

Payman Langroudi: I can arrange it for you.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Never met her before.

Sonia Rajput: I think she’s done a lot for the profession, especially for [01:21:55] females in dentistry. So, yeah, huge respect for her. So it’d be cool to.

[TRANSITION]: Amazing. Yeah.

Sonia Rajput: Cool to chat to her, I guess. And, [01:22:00] um, last one is probably. I just really like when nice people are successful. [01:22:05] So I feel like Joe Wicks is, like the nation’s sweetheart, and I think he’d be a really cool person to me. [01:22:10] Learn more about did you see his little clip on Dragons Den where he, like, um, he was like a [01:22:15] guest on Dragons Den. Did you see.

[TRANSITION]: That? No.

Sonia Rajput: He seems like the nicest person, but still so successful. So I love [01:22:20] when people like that have done really well. So I just love to. Just like. Yeah. Speak to him and see kind of his situation. [01:22:25]

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting the question, do you have to be a nasty boss or not? Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I know everything. [01:22:30]

Sonia Rajput: I think everyone should be nice. Good things come to nice people.

Payman Langroudi: It just suits some people to be nastier, you know? And [01:22:35] when you have a business, sometimes you need a strong, strong arm, you know, like. But it’s not me. For me, it’s my [01:22:40] partner, my business partner.

[TRANSITION]: Good cop, bad cop. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, he’s not that he’s [01:22:45] particularly nasty, but for instance, he’s. If someone walks in two minutes late. [01:22:50]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Really gets to.

[TRANSITION]: Him. It really.

Payman Langroudi: Really gets.

[TRANSITION]: To him. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And he’s like, well, why can’t you set [01:22:55] your watch, you know, your alarm two minutes earlier.

[TRANSITION]: If.

Payman Langroudi: That’s, you know, whereas with me I’m like, whatever, [01:23:00] I’m scared.

[TRANSITION]: I’m scared of him because I’m the late one.

Payman Langroudi: Checking [01:23:05] you’re a bit ADHD.

Sonia Rajput: I don’t know, I don’t really like labels. I don’t know, maybe. [01:23:10]

Payman Langroudi: Like lose focus?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I.

Sonia Rajput: Struggle with focus for.

[TRANSITION]: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: Unless unless it’s something that really interests [01:23:15] you and then you’re.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Then.

Sonia Rajput: Yeah, then I forget. But if I have something to do, a task to do, and I know I have the [01:23:20] whole day to do it, I will probably start it at 9 p.m.. Like, that’s just the kind of person I am. It’s just so annoying. [01:23:25]

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of spectrum stuff. It’s kind of an ADHD thing.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, a 5 a.m. person.

Sonia Rajput: I don’t think I could [01:23:30] ever do that.

[TRANSITION]: You know, when people.

Sonia Rajput: Get it done at 5 a.m., like, I just can’t.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. No, no, but I can’t. [01:23:35] I can’t stand, like, when homework, homework.

[TRANSITION]: Homework, homework.

Payman Langroudi: Some kids would come home, do their homework [01:23:40] straight away.

[TRANSITION]: No I can’t.

Payman Langroudi: I’d be like, you know, 1 a.m. or 5 a.m. the next day. [01:23:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, literally.

Payman Langroudi: Constantly putting things off. And it’s such a drag, man, because I’ve got stuff [01:23:50] I need to do now, and some of them are easy things, but somehow they just don’t want to do [01:23:55] it.

[TRANSITION]: I just don’t it’s hard.

Sonia Rajput: I don’t know why, but yeah, so that would be good if I could make myself not [01:24:00] like that, that would be pretty good.

Payman Langroudi: I like that, that’s good, that’s good. Sort of self-awareness, you know Yeah.

Sonia Rajput: I’m [01:24:05] aware that I’m very bad in those things.

Payman Langroudi: So are you spiritual?

Sonia Rajput: Um. I [01:24:10] haven’t reached that stage just yet. No. I’m not.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. It’s been such a massive pleasure. [01:24:15]

[TRANSITION]: Thank you. No, it’s really nice. Thanks for asking me to come. Thank you so.

Payman Langroudi: Much for coming all.

[TRANSITION]: The way.

Sonia Rajput: Thank you.

[VOICE]: This [01:24:20] is Dental Leaders, the podcast [01:24:25] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:24:30] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav [01:24:35] Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must [01:24:40] have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking [01:24:45] through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you [01:24:50] got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And [01:24:55] if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank [01:25:00] you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is mind movers [00:00:10] moving the conversation forward on mental health [00:00:15] and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:00:20] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Hello [00:00:25] everyone! Welcome to another episode of Mind Movers. Today we have [00:00:30] my Instagram crush, a mental health advocate, a writer, [00:00:35] a former model, and someone who I just think is incredible. We connected over social [00:00:40] media and sort of became besties online. So it is my pleasure to welcome [00:00:45] Stina Sanders. Welcome. Thank you. That was such a nice introduction.

[VOICE]: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So [00:00:50] I just want to give a bit of background on Stina for people that know that after rising to public attention, [00:00:55] by sharing your unfiltered realities behind your seemingly glamorous life, Stina has [00:01:00] become a leading voice in the conversation of emotional well-being, social media transparency, female [00:01:05] empowerment, and obviously the big one relationships, which what everyone is obsessed with. [00:01:10] You regularly speak up on topics like anxiety, trauma therapy, [00:01:15] and the pressures of online life. You are a therapist. You are currently [00:01:20] going undergoing a master’s and then hopefully PhD all pending. And [00:01:25] she’s also going to be a mommy soon. So yes. So Applause. So welcome Tina. [00:01:30] It’s such a pleasure to have you here. Thank you for coming.

Stina Sanders : Thanks for having me on, guys. [00:01:35]

Rhona Eskander: So people don’t really like us, sort of starting from the beginning, I guess. But I always find [00:01:40] it interesting because I feel like it is the blood and bones who make us who we are. [00:01:45] And I want you because I. When I sort of saw you first time when I was doing my stalking, [00:01:50] I obviously googled you and I saw lots of articles about your personal [00:01:55] life that you were sharing. So tell us a little bit about your background, where you came from and how you got into this work. [00:02:00]

Stina Sanders : Oh, where do I start? So yes, I used to do so back in the [00:02:05] day when I first started my career, I was doing PR, and then I took a hand to journalism because I love writing. [00:02:10] Like, writing is my passion. It’s where I can escape. So hence why when [00:02:15] you do a quick online search of me, you will see a lot of therapy articles, but you’ll also see some past articles, [00:02:20] just personal experiences that I would write about. And I just loved kind of sharing [00:02:25] life lessons or things that have touched me, and in the hope that hopefully it would [00:02:30] resonate with someone reading it. And that was kind of, again, just something I didn’t get paid very much, [00:02:35] but it was just something that I did on the side. Um, and then through [00:02:40] sort of PR, I ended up meeting, um, a Russian investor who [00:02:45] was starting a dating app, uh, called Huggle, and he was looking for somebody [00:02:50] that has sort of marketing and PR background and sort of light that I was in the journalist [00:02:55] world as well, and just sort of said, would you be interested in coming on board and helping out with the PR [00:03:00] and marketing and, and, you know. Yeah, sure. Why not? That’s what I was doing. And then we got [00:03:05] into it. Um, I had a co-founder as, as well. Um, so we just started this business [00:03:10] and then ended.

Rhona Eskander: So with three of you, the founders.

Stina Sanders : So he was our investor, and then she was the [00:03:15] she was actually really the founder. But when I came on board, they sort of said, [00:03:20] do you want to do you want to go all in on this business? And I was like, yeah, I’m sold. Like, let’s do this. So [00:03:25] again, I was co-founder, but I wasn’t really yeah. Kind of came in at the last minute. [00:03:30] Um, so we did that. We, we grew a business from literally start up and, [00:03:35] and we we did boom. We boomed in the UK. We didn’t so much in the US. Um, [00:03:40] that was a harder market. And then in the end, we actually ended up selling our business to a [00:03:45] company called Badoo, um, who actually used to own Bumble. Again, they were the investor [00:03:50] behind that. So yeah, I had that kind of world and I was always really interested [00:03:55] in relationships. And it’s funny, I look back now and a lot of my writing was about my relationships, my [00:04:00] dating status, love, um, and obviously the kind of the underbelly of [00:04:05] that was psychology and understanding what makes people tick. And you know what? Why is that, um, [00:04:10] attractive to some people and not to others? And ghosting and all the terms that we all use today. Um, [00:04:15] and then anyway, I sold that business and I kind of was sort of doing [00:04:20] PR for a bit, but I just didn’t feel fulfilled. And it was actually I was having a [00:04:25] conversation with my own therapist at the time, and she sort of said, well, what are you interested in? You know, you’ve, [00:04:30] you know, you’ve said this and this and this. And I said, well, psychology really, I always have found human psychology [00:04:35] fascinating. Um, she said, well, go and study it then and see what happens. And I thought, [00:04:40] yeah, why not? I haven’t got much to lose. I’ve got a good summer ahead of me. I’ve just sold a business. So I [00:04:45] did, and I went to study it and fell in love and then carried on. So. [00:04:50] And that’s how I basically fell into therapy.

Payman Langroudi: Make that sound very simple, very simple. But it’s. [00:04:55]

Stina Sanders : Not.

Payman Langroudi: The the, the the progression of a company from nothing to [00:05:00] sold. How many years was that?

Stina Sanders : Six. I think it was pretty quick. Yeah. [00:05:05]

Rhona Eskander: So what was the premise of Huggle? Because I’d actually never heard of it.

Stina Sanders : So Huggle was nearly do you [00:05:10] remember happen where it was like you.

Rhona Eskander: You crossed paths?

Stina Sanders : Yeah. We never quite liked that because it was just [00:05:15] sort of like, oh, okay, great. You happened to walk past someone, and obviously the whole premise was that it was, you know, [00:05:20] being at the right place at the right time. So we were like, let’s take it back. And actually, uh, [00:05:25] look at the locations and people’s interests and common ground. So actually you would [00:05:30] match on similarities and going back to sort of shared values, which is again, very important [00:05:35] when you meet somebody, you know, if you don’t have much in common, you don’t really have a great starting point. So [00:05:40] our whole sort of thing was the locations that you go to, um, the [00:05:45] things that you’re interested in. And that was essentially you obviously did the whole swiping thing, but you were matching or [00:05:50] connected with people who were similar or like minded to you. So that was yeah, [00:05:55] we actually started it as a friendship app originally.

Rhona Eskander: I’ve always said there’s a need for that because I travel alone [00:06:00] quite a lot and sometimes, you know, like you’re there for like two, three days. And I was like, oh God. Like, I wish there was like an app [00:06:05] where you could connect with people to, like, take you out, show you around and just have like a really nice time without a [00:06:10] hook-up. Do you see what I mean? Or like or even like just to meet even like girls, you know, and that kind of thing. Yeah. [00:06:15] So I always thought there was that niche.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you’ve talked to loads of couples, right? Yes. People in relationships. [00:06:20] And you know what you said about shared interests, do you think? You know, I [00:06:25] think when you look at couples, sometimes it’s a very opposite.

Stina Sanders : Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And opposites attract [00:06:30] and all that. But what is it, what what basic premises do you find have to be the [00:06:35] same. And then what other things can be opposites.

Stina Sanders : I think that’s such a that’s a really [00:06:40] good question. It’s very nuanced as well. The answer I think you for any [00:06:45] relationship to sort of work and move forward, I do think you have to [00:06:50] have shared values and shared morals, I just don’t. Yes, you can love Taylor [00:06:55] Swift and then your partner can absolutely hate her. Um, and that’s fine. But [00:07:00] I think it’s like the real sort of basic principles. Yeah. And, you know, [00:07:05] if you’re not on the same page with that, I think it’s very difficult to it’s not to say [00:07:10] it can’t work. And yes, opposites do attract, but I think if you really scrape [00:07:15] it down, you find actually they’re very similar in a lot of ways. And actually, [00:07:20] even to go even further psychologically, they often probably have very similar upbringings [00:07:25] too. You know, they might have come from very similar, like I said, backgrounds. Maybe one partner’s [00:07:30] household was chaotic and theirs was too. It’s it’s again, it’s what we feel [00:07:35] safe in. And the familiarity is, is that it’s the safe what we feel safe.

Rhona Eskander: Was [00:07:40] there a personal experience that sparked your passion or understanding emotional for [00:07:45] your understanding of emotional patterns and relationships?

Stina Sanders : Yes, I was in a very, [00:07:50] very abusive relationship.

Rhona Eskander: How old were.

Stina Sanders : You? I was early 20s [00:07:55] and absolutely lost myself. Like [00:08:00] I managed to say, yeah, I’m going to say it. I escaped this relationship [00:08:05] and it’s strange looking back. I really didn’t want to leave. I was completely [00:08:10] at the end of my tether, I was unwell, I have relatively clear [00:08:15] skin. I had developed acne from like all over my face. I was just physically, [00:08:20] emotionally, just drained and managed to actually just run. And [00:08:25] um, in the end, while I was out [00:08:30] of that relationship, yes, things were getting a little bit better, but I just I still wasn’t quite [00:08:35] there. So I actually took myself to therapy. Um, and it was through therapy [00:08:40] that, you know, my therapist sort of mentioned, you know, that your partner has very narcissistic traits. [00:08:45] I’d never heard of the word narcissist. You know, to me, I was like, what’s that? Um, and then he would [00:08:50] explain trauma bonding, And then he would explain, um, different dynamics and [00:08:55] relationship patterns. And, you know, for me, it was cognitive dissonance, which is basically I [00:09:00] just couldn’t quite team up with the fact that the reality was I was living in an [00:09:05] absolute nightmare, hell, but I just couldn’t face that reality. I would just minimise [00:09:10] it or rationalise it. Um, and then after that, you know, that [00:09:15] process really helped me to heal and move forward. But it was really that experience [00:09:20] was life changing for me. And I remember thinking this was years later, like I decided [00:09:25] when I went to sorry, when I decided to study it, I thought, oh my God, you know, that [00:09:30] is just so fascinating to me. And that’s why, again, I would just I wanted to go and study because [00:09:35] I wanted to be able to help other people who, like me, might be in that situation. And [00:09:40] that was kind of it, really.

Rhona Eskander: Well, I’m glad that you’ve brought us onto that topic, right. Because I think [00:09:45] that so many people, including Payman, think that impulse Reactions [00:09:50] are what dictate the truth. And I have quite a similar journey to you as well. And [00:09:55] I don’t believe that those feelings, for example, I said that [00:10:00] I would never want to lose myself in a way [00:10:05] where I compromise my job. What I like, where [00:10:10] I live, all of my friends for someone else because I was almost in that position, almost. [00:10:15] And he said, well, you clearly never been in love. And I was like, no, I’ve done enough [00:10:20] work in myself, on myself to know that that addiction to the dopamine is something [00:10:25] that is self-soothing parts of myself that feel familiar, which is basically chaos [00:10:30] and that is mistaken for love. And he was like, no, because you drop everything for the [00:10:35] person you love. And I’m like, I don’t think that’s healthy. Someone that comes into your life, and this has happened [00:10:40] to me and I have been so enamoured and I feel sick and I can’t concentrate at work [00:10:45] and I’m like, do I sack it all off for this person that isn’t [00:10:50] love. Because once I’m over that situation, I’m like anything that comes into your life and causes that chaos [00:10:55] and makes you lose yourself isn’t the definition of love. He disagrees.

Stina Sanders : Oh, interesting. [00:11:00]

Payman Langroudi: Not, not. I mean, it’s more nuanced than that.

Rhona Eskander: It’s not. You literally said.

Payman Langroudi: More than that.

Rhona Eskander: And [00:11:05] I want to hear Dina’s view first, and then we’ll come back to you.

Stina Sanders : It’s like a couples counselling session.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:11:10] Go on, go on. I’d like to hear. So I actually see.

Stina Sanders : A little bit of your point of view, and I obviously [00:11:15] very much see yours as well. There is compromise.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Stina Sanders : So yes, [00:11:20] you can’t lose yourself, but obviously there is a line of there [00:11:25] will be things that you might have to be a bit more flexible on. I’m not sure what that is, because obviously [00:11:30] every person’s value and expectations and where they want to go in life is different. [00:11:35] But I think as a couple you do have to meet in the middle. It can’t be like, [00:11:40] this is what I want. I’m not changing my career. I’m not doing this, you know? Yeah, because you’re probably [00:11:45] going to end up alone. Or you might meet someone that’s totally fine with that, and that’s great too. But I think [00:11:50] depending on each person, there needs to be flexibility. Otherwise you don’t [00:11:55] really have a partnership.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, there’s look, there’s love, there’s in love, there’s falling in love, there’s [00:12:00] lust. All I was saying to you is falling in love, by definition, is [00:12:05] illogical to the point that you would do anything for it. That’s all I was saying. [00:12:10]

Rhona Eskander: I kind of see what you mean. But I also don’t necessarily agree, because I’ve also done years of therapy [00:12:15] and coaching and everything, and I’ve recognised that that notion [00:12:20] of, like you said, where you can’t eat sleep and you can’t temporary. Huh? Yeah. [00:12:25] It’s temporary, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s the person maybe.

Payman Langroudi: You’re wise enough to know.

Rhona Eskander: The thing is, is that I. [00:12:30] And I’m sure Steven is the same. I understood that that initial feeling of chaos [00:12:35] never worked out for me. Okay? It never worked out for me, so I had to switch [00:12:40] it up. So when I started asking the important questions. Okay, initial attraction is [00:12:45] important, of course, but just because you go on a date and you don’t feel like there [00:12:50] is a difference between a charmer and someone that is actually going to be committed to you, you can go on a date and feel [00:12:55] that someone’s pursuit of you so feverishly is like, oh my God, this person is so into me. [00:13:00] They could be into you for the night. They could take you away for the weekend, and you could be totally like, wow, this [00:13:05] is the love of my life. He’s just taken me to Capri. Been there, done that for the weekend. He’s obviously into me. And then he could disappear. [00:13:10] For me, that’s not consistency.

Payman Langroudi: Most women sort of don’t go [00:13:15] for guys who are that much into them in a way. Right.

Rhona Eskander: If they’re really into them themselves, no. But if you [00:13:20] are very attracted to someone, you’ve even said that to me. I feel like you’re starting [00:13:25] to understand, but I don’t think that necessarily is the basis for a healthy partnership. And [00:13:30] I think that actually someone that makes you feel calm and safe, just [00:13:35] because that is not labelled as sexy in society is something [00:13:40] that we should rephrase, of course.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s take let’s take it to the other extreme where [00:13:45] Indians have arranged marriages with someone completely suitable. Yeah, [00:13:50] and? And you’re right. It works often. Yeah, because the person [00:13:55] does it.

Rhona Eskander: I’d like to answer that often.

Payman Langroudi: Often it works.

Stina Sanders : Sometimes it’s hard because it’s like [00:14:00] you look at, you know. Yes, it can, but there are obviously.

Payman Langroudi: Issues. [00:14:05]

Stina Sanders : Issues there obviously cases where it shows, it really doesn’t. You know, people are in very abusive, toxic relationships, [00:14:10] you know.

Payman Langroudi: But you see what I mean? That what you’re suggesting is that it’s a very logical process. [00:14:15]

Rhona Eskander: I didn’t say it’s logical. No. What I’m saying is, is that you do not have to have the feeling where you have to compromise [00:14:20] everything you want just because you’re impressed by a person. I’m not saying [00:14:25] compromise in general. I’m saying initial attraction is important. But what is important? To ask all the questions. If I met [00:14:30] somebody and over a week I’m like, he ticks all my boxes. Okay, let’s just say [00:14:35] for argument’s sake. So I look, he’s like, he’s got a sexy career. He’s super hot. Okay, ten out of [00:14:40] ten in looks, he’s saying all the right things. Okay, then after a week, I call you up and [00:14:45] I’m like, steena, he’s the one. Okay. And then you’re like, okay. And then after a month, I say to you, do [00:14:50] you know what I’ve decided a month. I’ve decided I’m going to pack my bags, I’m going to quit [00:14:55] my job, and I’m going to move to where he lives. Okay. That was the example I gave you. I’m going to move to [00:15:00] where he lives. Okay. I don’t have any friends there, but I don’t care because I know that he’s the one. Cool. [00:15:05] Then after two months, you decide I’m going to get pregnant, right? Because. And that’s [00:15:10] the thing I would say to you as a friend. Because he’s just like, well, you’ve clearly never been in love. Like that sort of person. [00:15:15] Like, no, I would say there is no harm in waiting and asking the right questions. I’d [00:15:20] say the.

Payman Langroudi: Same. Yeah, I’d say the same.

Rhona Eskander: No. And then that’s the whole. Because you’ve clearly never been in love to just impulsively do [00:15:25] that.

Stina Sanders : Have you done.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, exactly.

Stina Sanders : I thought you could say this is my story. [00:15:30]

Rhona Eskander: He said that he’s had the experience where he’s. He couldn’t stop thinking about someone [00:15:35] for 24/7. So he was like, I get that feeling. We’ve all had that feeling. Totally. [00:15:40] But what I’m saying is it’s important with when you do the work, when you truly do the [00:15:45] work on yourself, which clearly you are, you’re dedicated. You have a degree in this. You understand? [00:15:50] Asking the questions is a really important part of the decision making process.

Stina Sanders : Yes, asking the questions [00:15:55] and also taking your time.

Rhona Eskander: Thank you.

Stina Sanders : Because when we always [00:16:00] meet somebody for the first time, right now, we are all presenting our best selves because that’s what we do as [00:16:05] humans. You know, we want to be liked. We want to be included. This is how we bond and this is how we build our [00:16:10] relationships. But obviously, eventually that masks for all of us will slip, [00:16:15] you know? And there will be things that you noticed about me that you hadn’t noticed before. Or there’s an annoying [00:16:20] habit that I do and you’re like, oh my God. And do you know what? Whether that’s right or wrong, [00:16:25] you have to see it through. You have to see it out and say to yourself, and that sorry, what I’m [00:16:30] trying to say is it just takes time. You can’t just run in and say, and I and I think [00:16:35] it’s so important to be so grounded in the early [00:16:40] stages of dating. I always say up to a year personally.

Payman Langroudi: Personally I agree I’d agree. [00:16:45] I agree.

Rhona Eskander: I agree.

Stina Sanders : Now he’s.

Rhona Eskander: Agreeing, now.

Payman Langroudi: I agree. [00:16:50] In that if you came to me with that story. My advice to you would be, you know, wake up.

Stina Sanders : Yes. And [00:16:55] I would also question if somebody was doing that because. And FYI, I have done that same. [00:17:00]

Rhona Eskander: So have.

Stina Sanders : I. Oh I would say where is that coming from. Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:17:05] probably some sort of deficit.

Rhona Eskander: It’s not it’s not the feeling of like I’m so in love. I do everything for that person. It’s coming [00:17:10] from a deficit.

Stina Sanders : It’s coming from a lack.

Rhona Eskander: So yeah, but that brings me on to one other [00:17:15] important question. So what did your own healing look like then? Because where you went from narcissistic [00:17:20] I obviously understand. Did you find doing the app quite triggering or did you find it quite healing? [00:17:25] Because obviously that was before you’d studied. You already had done therapy, but not psychology psychotherapy. [00:17:30] So for you, where did the actual where do you feel like there was a real shift? Not [00:17:35] a sort of like I’m great positive, like thoughts, honestly.

Stina Sanders : After [00:17:40] that abusive relationship. I continued to have many more unhealthy, [00:17:45] toxic relationships. It wasn’t just one. Okay, I now understand [00:17:50] that that was dangerous. I’m healed, thank God. I’ll never look for [00:17:55] another narcissist again. Unfortunately for me, because I hadn’t done the work myself, [00:18:00] I had gone to therapy. I had read many books, I had understood it. I knew all the [00:18:05] terms like gaslighting and all this stuff. And, you know, I was like, I was a [00:18:10] red flag spotter, you know, I could see them literally walking down the pavement. But did that stop me from getting into [00:18:15] toxic, unhealthy dynamics? No. For many years, even after my very abusive, [00:18:20] I’m not trying to scale them all. But after that first experience of an abusive [00:18:25] relationship, I was just finding myself in and out of them all the time. And it wasn’t [00:18:30] until I went and studied. And when you study to become a therapist, a [00:18:35] lot of people do not know this. It’s not a case of just reading the book and listening. You [00:18:40] have to do your own work. So and it was very intimidating. And I hated [00:18:45] every minute of it because you could not hide. And I had like tutors [00:18:50] and lecturers who would literally hold the mirror up and say, are you seeing this? Because this is what [00:18:55] you are. And it was just so like, I mean, that is a conversation for another time.

Rhona Eskander: Now, one [00:19:00] of my really good friends, she’s studying therapy at the moment. We’ve had her on the podcast and [00:19:05] um, she’s going like she’s doing a masters and then she’s gonna probably do a PhD, but like, I can see like the huge [00:19:10] shift in her as a person. And like she says, she’s like, you don’t understand how intense it is. [00:19:15] Like the group therapy, the like personal therapy, the like the dealing with like clients as [00:19:20] part of your training. Like she she says completely. The mirror is constantly held up.

Stina Sanders : And the [00:19:25] group therapy is so true. You’re in. You’re in like a group therapy setting with your [00:19:30] peers and your tutor, and people will come for you. You know, you might have said something that triggered [00:19:35] them, but the idea is you process it together and you have it out. And I never really [00:19:40] liked conflict. I was always like quite scared about it. And for me, one of my survival responses is [00:19:45] to fawn is to people. Please. Bloody hell. Like that course taught me not to do that. [00:19:50] Have it out, have the conversation, have the difficult conversations. So anyway, it was it was therapy where I learned, [00:19:55] hang on a minute, I’ve got not only an anxious attachment style, which I knew I knew [00:20:00] anyway, but actually I’ve got a lot of cool beliefs about myself. I didn’t like myself, I thought I [00:20:05] was unlovable, I thought people would always leave again. That’s from childhood and [00:20:10] also experiences. But I had to dig deep and do the work. I can’t even remember [00:20:15] what your question was.

Payman Langroudi: What would you say? Would you say you or people sometimes [00:20:20] project something that then someone like a narcissist can see and then prey [00:20:25] on?

[TRANSITION]: Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what kind of what kind of behaviours are they?

[TRANSITION]: This [00:20:30] is the thing.

Stina Sanders : Because anyone can end up being a victim of an abusive relationship. You know, there’s [00:20:35] loads of people out there.

Rhona Eskander: You don’t even know. I had it terribly with someone I was with. But go on. [00:20:40] It really can happen to the strongest women. And like. Yeah.

Stina Sanders : Like no one [00:20:45] is safe. Because actually, it’s, you know, it could be something as simple as you’ve [00:20:50] got a great career and you’re confident and just even the way you walk in a room, they’ll latch [00:20:55] on to it because they want a bit of that. Or it might be you are a very shy and [00:21:00] meek person, and again, they’ll latch on to it. It’s I don’t think there’s just one thing. I think [00:21:05] it’s just more of how they can kind of worm themselves [00:21:10] in. And I think that they can just do that with all the telltale signs.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, for someone who might be in a relationship [00:21:15] right now who feels something’s off in it. What are the telltale [00:21:20] signs that you’re you’re in a relationship with someone like that? I mean, the first sort of pedestal. [00:21:25] You. Yeah. Give love and take it away.

Stina Sanders : You’ve actually said it. It’s how you feel [00:21:30] in the relationship. So often our bodies tell us [00:21:35] before our minds do. So when I mentioned I when I was in my first abusive relationship, [00:21:40] I had acne and eczema and it was like my body was screaming for me [00:21:45] to get out, you know? And I didn’t make the connection at all. If I look back [00:21:50] unconsciously, I did. I felt uncomfortable with certain things that they did or they said, but I just [00:21:55] completely minimised, dismissed it, ignored it, rationalised it, made excuses. Um, [00:22:00] but yeah, I think telltale signs are within yourself. You know, that niggle that you feel where [00:22:05] you go, oh, I didn’t like that. Or oh, I have a gut intuition that something’s not right [00:22:10] here. We just tend to ignore ourselves all the time. And it’s so frustrating [00:22:15] because I obviously for me, I’ve been there. But when I can see people are clearly ignoring their [00:22:20] gut.

Rhona Eskander: But I think it’s because also like the familiarity familiarity piece like so I [00:22:25] had a.

Payman Langroudi: Fear of being alone. Maybe.

Rhona Eskander: No. Not necessarily. I mean, like, for example, I had a really [00:22:30] healthy relationship, uh, in my 20s, my first boyfriend I met at Leeds, um, [00:22:35] it was interesting because naturally, I think from a very young age I [00:22:40] fancied narcissists. I had my own sort of traumas and insecurities about [00:22:45] being Middle Eastern, not being accepted, growing up in a very white public school environment, being the only kind of foreigner. [00:22:50] And so like Leeds really perpetuated that. And every time I got rejected by these, like archetypal, [00:22:55] like public school boys, there was this like massive self-worth thing. And then my, my [00:23:00] first boyfriend was like a kind of like a rebound. And I was like, okay, like, I’ll go for this. We ended [00:23:05] up being together for like 6 or 7 years. It was, I would say, incredibly healthy, but [00:23:10] I think I always still yearned the narcissist because I think that I was so desperate to be seen. [00:23:15] And I think there’s a difference also between being a narcissist and having narcissistic tendencies. [00:23:20] And what I’ve learned is, is that I think that I have narcissistic tendencies just because I like, enjoy being in [00:23:25] the public eye and things like that doesn’t make me a bad person. There’s some self-awareness. I bring myself down [00:23:30] to that. But then I always was really attracted to someone that was like out there in the public [00:23:35] famous like really sort of, I guess masculine, alpha [00:23:40] like masculine toxicity that what you’d label now. But, um, [00:23:45] I then went on to just continuously go after these [00:23:50] narcissists and every time I thought it would be different.

Rhona Eskander: And then one day I looked in the mirror and I was [00:23:55] like, um, this is a me problem. And this feeling of feeling [00:24:00] sick, not being able to sleep, this feeling, it’s not normal. But it was just like this familiarity [00:24:05] of chaos that I really enjoyed. And it took a lot of time and work because then you [00:24:10] start to realise that other qualities are attractive. And when I was in a relationship [00:24:15] that was very narcissistic, what I realised was is the person that I was with pretended [00:24:20] to be someone else for three months. Then the real him came out and I was like, I thought [00:24:25] I knew you were like, you’re so desperate, like you said to like, cling on, cling on, cling on, cling on. And [00:24:30] it’s just really disorienting Disorientating because you [00:24:35] just don’t understand how you’ve ended up in that situation. So and I would [00:24:40] say, unfortunately, I think social media is providing more and more of a platform for [00:24:45] narcissists because by nature they love being out there and putting themselves out there. [00:24:50] And I think the messages that they perpetuate to the audiences reinforces [00:24:55] toxicity, especially to a lot of women. Like, I don’t know if you’re noticing this, because [00:25:00] sometimes I’ll look at content and I look at the comments from other women and I’m like, you guys are going to be like single forever. [00:25:05] Like, I’m not saying that in a patronising way, but there’s this, like, they feel like they’re entitled to [00:25:10] this like idea of perfectionism that’s portrayed online. Do you know what I mean?

Stina Sanders : I do understand. [00:25:15]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And I’m like, this is not healthy. It’s dangerous.

Stina Sanders : I think social media is definitely [00:25:20] amped up. I mean, we all, by the way, we all have narcissistic traits, whether we like to believe it or not. It’s [00:25:25] again, it’s a survival thing. You know, it’s I don’t want to call it healthy narcissism, but let’s call [00:25:30] it that for the podcast. You know, that’s our drive. You know. We’ve got to be successful [00:25:35] and stay alive. You know that. You know, that’s our ego. That’s our kind of ramping [00:25:40] up every day. Obviously, the unhealthy narcissism is when it’s projected onto others and, you [00:25:45] know, used in horrible ways. But, um, don’t forget, we’ve also got things like covert [00:25:50] narcissists who aren’t online. They’re everywhere. You know, it’s it’s, um, people [00:25:55] say, oh, these are the signs of a narcissist. But actually there are different types of narcissists. [00:26:00] I think there’s about last I read, it was like nine versions of different narcissists, [00:26:05] and some are very shy, quiet.

Payman Langroudi: What makes a narcissist [00:26:10] is what background? What childhood?

Rhona Eskander: Um, yeah. What traits would you say?

Stina Sanders : You know, there’s not [00:26:15] really an answer for it. It’s, um. It’s believed childhood. So childhood trauma. [00:26:20] Um, it could just be your personality. But a lot of people [00:26:25] believe it’s to do with the past and their upbringing and how they feel about themselves, [00:26:30] because they’re just insecure And obviously don’t forget you’ve got narcissistic personality disorder, which you know [00:26:35] is is a disorder. And then you’ve obviously got someone that has very high narcissistic traits. And again, it’s [00:26:40] on that’s on a spectrum. Um, but yeah, they’re not entirely sure. And, [00:26:45] and it’s one of those things where I don’t know if you’ve seen on TikTok, they’re quite I actually follow [00:26:50] one, a guy called Li um, he is, um, a narcissist, and he talks about sort [00:26:55] of his recovery and stuff because he is apparently in therapy and, and working on himself. [00:27:00] Um, but the thing is, not many people are going to admit that they’re a narcissist, are they? So [00:27:05] it’s not really. Um, but.

Rhona Eskander: It’s funny because, you see, I mean, I’m not going to mention who it is in the podcast, but I [00:27:10] went on a date with someone years ago from Raya, and he was like, he’s a very prominent [00:27:15] public figure. I wouldn’t say he’s even good looking. Raya. It’s a dating app. And it’s literally [00:27:20] it’s literally narcissist dating app. And like, he was not even good looking. But I was like, loved [00:27:25] him because of all his sort of like talks that he did tell you later off record and [00:27:30] I. When I went on the date, I was like, this guy is actually unbearable and was a narcissist, and [00:27:35] everything he portrayed online was nothing like he was in real life. And I was like, this [00:27:40] is really interesting for me to observe because, again, and he was so disengaged. [00:27:45] And I had a friend of mine who’s also a massive podcaster, and she’d also [00:27:50] gone on a date with someone that also had a big platform and talked a lot about relationships. And she said, like, the date was horrendous [00:27:55] and like the way he was engaging with her was also like horrendous. So I think it’s like quite [00:28:00] interesting that, you know, people can also say things, but it doesn’t actually what they believe. [00:28:05]

Stina Sanders : Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And what trends are you seeing now with dating [00:28:10] apps. You know, this sort of and social media, this sort of idea that there’s always someone [00:28:15] better to.

Stina Sanders : Yeah. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: That’s.

Stina Sanders : Um.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of a new phenomenon.

Stina Sanders : Yeah, [00:28:20] totally. It’s always thinking that the grass is greener on the other side, and we end up chasing our tails, because actually, [00:28:25] the reality is it’s it’s not so true. And that’s what it boils down [00:28:30] to again, is that shared value? I think a lot of people just swipe, swipe, swipe. Oh, they’re good looking and oh, I like [00:28:35] that. Like you were saying about the Ray guy, like I like his talks. I like how he portrays himself online and we just go into [00:28:40] it and then are very disappointed because again, it takes time. And actually, I think had you [00:28:45] met him in person, I think it would be very different. Um, because you get a sense of who he is, how he’s [00:28:50] being. Um, as much as I appreciate dating apps and [00:28:55] obviously started one and see so many benefits to it, there are so many flaws with it as well. [00:29:00] You know, um, I’m quite old fashioned in, in, you know, meeting somebody and actually meeting [00:29:05] people through friends and energy. Yeah. Absolutely energy. But but actually [00:29:10] my partner who I’m with, we we knew each other through through work. But again, it’s like I think [00:29:15] it’s very I like introducing my friends to other friends and [00:29:20] doing a bit of Cilla Black. Um, because I think, you know, they’re likely to get on because [00:29:25] they like me and we probably all have similar interests or, you know, something, [00:29:30] um, you know, in common.

Payman Langroudi: So I’m meeting a lot of guys and [00:29:35] girls who are choosing to be single.

Rhona Eskander: I think gen Gen Z in general.

Stina Sanders : Right?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, [00:29:40] yeah yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I think dating apps have a lot to do with that too.

[TRANSITION]: Probably because you get dating fatigue. [00:29:45]

Stina Sanders : Dating app fatigue.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Stina Sanders : I can’t be arsed with this. And again like that constant disappointment. [00:29:50] You feel like you’re on a treadmill. It’s tiring. It’s um.

Payman Langroudi: But you understand people. Do you understand [00:29:55] people who choose to be single?

Rhona Eskander: I’m going to put my $0.02 into this. And obviously you can you can agree or disagree [00:30:00] or give your advice on it. But I think we’re all like, I think we’re the same generation. [00:30:05] Obviously you’re a little bit older, but in general, our common [00:30:10] value or what was instilled to us was very much about like building a family and having kids. Yes. [00:30:15] And I think that a lot of Gen Z women in particular don’t want children either. [00:30:20] So the need to settle down is not necessarily on their radar. [00:30:25] That’s what I think is happening as well. And I think that men then [00:30:30] we have the rise of like young boys not having good mentors, [00:30:35] good leaders because as well they’re really disgruntled that women aren’t really generally interested [00:30:40] in them. Do you know what I mean? So I think also like, we cannot avoid the fact that a lot [00:30:45] of Gen Zers and including lots that I know and I don’t kids, I don’t kids. Do you know what I mean? So there’s not [00:30:50] that sort of like, okay, I need to find someone and start a family.

Stina Sanders : Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I don’t know.

Stina Sanders : That’s just a perspective. [00:30:55] Yeah. I get that there’s a lack of urgency, isn’t there? Because it’s like, well, I don’t need to settle down. But I [00:31:00] think if we take it back to sort of caveman times, we do need to be [00:31:05] with people, whether that’s friendships romantically, because again, that’s survival, [00:31:10] isn’t it? It’s like when you’ve got your pack, you’re safe. Um, so there’s a part of me where I think it’s [00:31:15] great, and I love this movement of being, like, single and free and doing what you want to do. But I think, [00:31:20] and it’s no right or wrong. I’m not saying it’s an either way. I’m just saying [00:31:25] it’s just interesting because ultimately we will. We always need someone, whether that is friendship or [00:31:30] romantically. Yeah, we always need people.

Payman Langroudi: But are you not finding that? I find that there’s quite [00:31:35] a lot of women, for instance, who, when they do want to settle down now, can’t find anyone. [00:31:40]

Rhona Eskander: Well, I’d like to, but I think again, don’t come for me, everyone. I [00:31:45] think I do think, like, listen, like I’m a massive kind of female ally. That’s how we became [00:31:50] friends. I have so many incredible women around me. But some of the things that I’m [00:31:55] seeing, what women want in men nowadays, I’m like, you’re shooting yourself in the foot. [00:32:00]

Stina Sanders : Like, yes.

Rhona Eskander: Like so like there are things. And this is what I’m saying. Like when I see the content, they want a ten out [00:32:05] of ten.

Payman Langroudi: Look, they.

Rhona Eskander: Want it all. They want it all. They want like someone who’s six foot five, who’s [00:32:10] ripped, who’s rich, who’s kind.

Stina Sanders : Who’s finance guy. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Like [00:32:15] the thing is, is like, they want they want all of that. Yeah. [00:32:20] And listen, I think because I’ve had this conversation with a girlfriend of mine recently [00:32:25] and I said to have high standards. She was like, yeah, but like, if girls can bring it all to the table [00:32:30] then. So I’m like, I’m not saying don’t have high standards. Obviously don’t settle for someone [00:32:35] that treats you badly. But the thing is, say someone has like seven out of ten of [00:32:40] the things you want or eight out of ten, or they make you feel amazing, like, are you really not going to go? And that is [00:32:45] again, the problem with dating apps, because you might say, no, I’m not going to date this guy because he’s like five foot eight [00:32:50] or whatever, but he actually in real life he could be amazing and you would have got on with him well, in a bar and [00:32:55] that would have gone out the window.

Stina Sanders : Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: You just got married. You’re not married?

Stina Sanders : I’m not married.

Payman Langroudi: No. You’ve never [00:33:00] been married?

Stina Sanders : No. Never been married, I mean, yet.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:33:05] but but you know, I think like if marriage is the goal. Yeah. Then kindness [00:33:10] should be the like number one by a long way and looks, [00:33:15] I mean.

Rhona Eskander: It’s I think attraction is important. But I’m going to ask you something. Why do you [00:33:20] think that a lot of people, men and women don’t put [00:33:25] kindness up there that often. I know, but why do you think that is?

Stina Sanders : I honestly [00:33:30] don’t know. Because I don’t think. I think because it’s such a basic need that they’re just like, oh, [00:33:35] well, they’re obviously going to be nice. But actually, no, people are not kind. [00:33:40] Yeah. And people are not respectful actually is another thing. Um, it is [00:33:45] so funny. I have a very good friend who I said to her, what’s your list like? And [00:33:50] when I ask people that, I’m not saying the six foot blue eyes, I’m not saying that. But [00:33:55] again, it’s to help people look at those values. And I do this with some clients as well. I sort of say, what’s important [00:34:00] to you? Let’s really break it down. And it was so funny. She’s like, needs to have a good job, [00:34:05] needs to be six foot. I said, yeah, okay. That’s fine. If that’s what you want, that’s fine. But [00:34:10] let’s how about, you know, loyalty. Oh, I didn’t think of that.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. [00:34:15] Like and like you said, like reliability and like, now obviously that you’re pregnant, you realise [00:34:20] that, like, a lot of that stuff matters more than ever. The other stuff, like the way you look, probably goes [00:34:25] out the window, right? Like you’re like, I don’t care. I need someone to just turn up for me, you know, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [00:34:30] talk dentistry. Yeah. Now, one thing I’ve noticed in dentistry.

Rhona Eskander: They like to marry each other. Joking. [00:34:35] There is.

Payman Langroudi: There is that. But. But let’s talk about women in dentistry. Yeah, women [00:34:40] in dentistry can earn loads of money. Yeah, they can. If they’re successful, [00:34:45] they can earn loads of money. And not not only dentists. I mean, I see it with hygienists [00:34:50] too often. The woman is the breadwinner, often much more often [00:34:55] than out in the street. Yeah. Now and I think that produces its own [00:35:00] set of challenges. And call me old fashioned. Yeah. But when [00:35:05] a woman earns more than a man, she has to be very careful with that. [00:35:10] It should never be brought up. Yeah. Because that’s such a, like, old [00:35:15] fashioned idea of the man is the provider. And I’d bet in dentistry, there’s a [00:35:20] much higher proportion of women who are the primary earner. And it comes with a set [00:35:25] of hassles, a set of challenges and a relationship. Have you had any [00:35:30] idea around that? Because now women are earning a lot more than they used to.

Stina Sanders : If if [00:35:35] we’re going to talk about successful women and if you are a successful woman. [00:35:40] Yeah. Insecure men are not going to touch you because it taps [00:35:45] into all their insecurities and triggers. But there are healthy men that are [00:35:50] totally secure in themselves who will big up their women and and let her fly. [00:35:55] Of course, you know.

Rhona Eskander: But from the percentage point of view, because obviously, I mean, I don’t know if you’ve got stats, I [00:36:00] don’t have stats. Do you think that, again, if successful women are like, I earn X amount. So [00:36:05] if a woman let’s for argument’s sake, let’s say she earns 100 K a year and [00:36:10] she wants a man that earns that or more. Do you think that they’re limiting their pool by a [00:36:15] lot because then they also want to be attracted to them, for example, and like be like, oh, their looks. Do [00:36:20] you like, do you feel that you are narrowing your pool? Or do you think it’s important to stick to what’s important for [00:36:25] you?

Stina Sanders : I would say it is its success. Is it [00:36:30] money or is it drive? Which one is it? Because for me, all my friends used [00:36:35] to take the piss out of me and say, oh, you just want a really successful rich man? Actually, no. While that [00:36:40] is quite nice, I actually want someone who’s driven and that has purpose and that has lust [00:36:45] for life and passion. So I think if you can. Obviously some people might just say, no, these are my. I’m sticking [00:36:50] to it. And I he needs to earn X and okay fine. But you are the pool’s going to be very [00:36:55] small there. But what matters what really truly matters is it drive. You know they [00:37:00] could be doing any job, but if they were driven and good at it and top of their game and ambitious [00:37:05] is that, you know, maybe I.

Rhona Eskander: Think again that’s like yeah. Like, listen, like I completely [00:37:10] relate to you. I’ve said this online. I’m not ashamed to say it again. I have [00:37:15] a man in finance. I decided consciously after my first boyfriend, who, who [00:37:20] was a trust fund kid and didn’t have much drive, that I wanted someone more successful [00:37:25] than me. Did I narrow the pool? Maybe. But like I did end up with a professional. But I had to give [00:37:30] an other aspects. Do you see what I mean? Because. But then it’s like his drive. And, like, now [00:37:35] he’s getting involved with my business. I was like, I’m so right. Like, this was so important to me. [00:37:40] And now, like, it shows even more because it’s the way his brain works that I [00:37:45] love.

Payman Langroudi: But yeah, but look, when we all know relationships where the man is [00:37:50] way more successful than the woman, and we all know relationships where the man uses [00:37:55] that fact. Yeah, like maybe it’s in handbags, maybe [00:38:00] it’s in whatever it is. Yeah, yeah, but those guys are dicks, right? So so so so we all agree [00:38:05] on that. Yeah. Now, when a woman earns more than a man, it’s a silly move [00:38:10] to bring it up.

Stina Sanders : You say? It’s quite understated.

Payman Langroudi: You think? I think it’s a silly move to bring it up, but it’s an even [00:38:15] sillier move. It’s an even bigger thing because the man’s traditional role is the provider. So [00:38:20] if a woman brings it up and, you know, in a deep argument, you could bring that up right [00:38:25] now, I know maybe 8 or 9 couples where the woman’s earning more or [00:38:30] I mean, as you say, it’s not just about the number, it’s about the drive and all of that. And some of [00:38:35] them do manage it, but many don’t.

Stina Sanders : In terms of what their as in how they how it makes [00:38:40] their like the relationship dynamic dynamic.

Rhona Eskander: There’s resentment I think.

Stina Sanders : Right.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:38:45] think it’s a particularly sensitive subject for a man not to be the provider, you know. [00:38:50]

Stina Sanders : Yeah. Maybe it’s a maybe it’s a sensitive subject for everyone. Money. Money is [00:38:55] quite the root of all evil, isn’t it?

Rhona Eskander: I think Stena’s right. Like, it just depends on what you want and what you [00:39:00] value. And maybe because also like you’re Iranian as well, that plays into it like from a cultural point of view. Like [00:39:05] we I’m not going to mention her, but you know, like there is a very successful dentist who earns a lot more than her husband [00:39:10] always has done. They have three children, and they made the conscious decision together that he’s going to bring up the kids. [00:39:15] And she and they love that dynamic and he’s an amazing dad and they’re really comfortable. [00:39:20] It’s not the dynamic I want, but that’s what she wants and they have that open conversation. So it’s again about like, are [00:39:25] you choosing someone? What matters more to you? I’ve had friends that have compromised on money because looks [00:39:30] is the most important thing to them, sadly. But it’s so important for them to be with a guy that looks like a model [00:39:35] that they will like happily pay for everything. Because that is what like again, that wouldn’t feed my soul. [00:39:40] But that’s important to them. And as long as they know they’re in that dynamic, it is them. Which also [00:39:45] I want to bring on to, because I think it’s an important topic to talk about trauma bonds, because this might be a new [00:39:50] term to people. Yeah. What is a trauma bond and how do you know if you’re in it.

Stina Sanders : So trauma bond [00:39:55] is an emotional attachment which you often see in abusive relationships [00:40:00] or toxic patterns. And it basically is formed through intermittent [00:40:05] reinforcement. So when you’re in an abusive or unhealthy toxic relationship, it’s [00:40:10] not always abusive. It’s not always toxic, it’s not always unhealthy. And that’s where it hooks [00:40:15] you in because you get a glimmer of, oh, affection or love or it’s peaceful [00:40:20] and it’s nice and you think, ah, yes. And then all of a sudden it hits you with harm, abuse, [00:40:25] lying. What unhealthy behaviours. So it’s very unpredictable. And this [00:40:30] up and down, these highs and lows. Unfortunately that releases dopamine [00:40:35] in us. And we can get quite addicted to to that sort of cycle. And that’s a trauma bond. So you [00:40:40] end up just becoming so stuck in it because you can’t really see the wood from the [00:40:45] trees. And so yeah, you just stay in it. It’s essentially an emotional attachment. [00:40:50]

Rhona Eskander: Can a trauma bond be beneficial to both parties. And I’ll tell you I’ll tell you why I say that. [00:40:55] Because I believe I have a friend and that her and her partner and a trauma bond. But it works both ways [00:41:00] because he’s traumatised from his previous relationships. And he was, I [00:41:05] would say, kind of abused by his previous girlfriends and relationships. Um, so he had the [00:41:10] narcissistic girlfriend and so forth. And then she also had like a failed marriage and [00:41:15] I feel like they found each other when they were both really lost. So I feel like it’s a kind of beneficial trauma [00:41:20] bond. Does that make sense? You know, like they really need each other. But is that contradiction like you can’t [00:41:25] have a positive trauma bond if that makes sense.

Stina Sanders : That’s just bonding over trauma. Yeah. Bonding over. [00:41:30]

Rhona Eskander: Trauma.

Stina Sanders : Yeah. But a trauma bond is when you’re when you’re actually in a very [00:41:35] unhealthy relationship. And it’s that up and down. And we if and [00:41:40] I have been in it many times it’s just you when you get the good [00:41:45] the highs. Oh my God that sense of relief of like finally you know. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Oh they [00:41:50] do love me.

Stina Sanders : Yeah. And then all of a sudden it’s taken away from you. And like you said earlier, you do you will do anything [00:41:55] to get back to what you had. Yeah. Um, I can always tell when someone, when a [00:42:00] client is in a trauma bond relationship, um, or it’s trauma bonded, they will always [00:42:05] say to me when it’s good, it’s good, but when it’s bad, it’s bad. And [00:42:10] that for me, I’m like, oh, sure, my bond.

Rhona Eskander: Why do people mistake chaos [00:42:15] for intense love?

Stina Sanders : Why do people mistake chaos for intense love? Because [00:42:20] more often than not, it is to do with what they’re used [00:42:25] to. So again, if you had a very chaotic or maybe an abusive upbringing [00:42:30] or an unpredictable upbringing, then if you’re in a relationship that’s chaotic [00:42:35] and predictable, that feels very safe because it’s familiar. Um, also [00:42:40] your own core beliefs, if you think that you’re not good enough and you end up in something [00:42:45] like that. Again, what we were saying about the grass is greener. You just think, well, that’s not true. I’m going to stay in [00:42:50] this because this is as good as it gets. So yeah, we can kind of kid ourselves into thinking, no, this [00:42:55] is love when it’s really not.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, I’m going to go on to a little bit of a detour. This [00:43:00] is an interesting one for me. You posted something recently which I really enjoyed [00:43:05] and it said even ChatGPT is sick about hearing him, babe. Did you see that? It’s [00:43:10] so funny. And what I’m seeing a lot of from people that I follow [00:43:15] online. And also my friends that are psychotherapists is that people really believe that ChatGPT [00:43:20] is better or a replacement as therapy. I would like [00:43:25] to know as a professional, if you believe this is true, what you feel as a therapist [00:43:30] about AI when it comes to therapy, whether you think people are hearing the [00:43:35] right answers. Does it have this? I just want to have a chat about all of that.

Stina Sanders : Oh my [00:43:40] God, this is a long. By the way, I love ChatGPT and I even use it [00:43:45] as a therapist. However, I know what [00:43:50] to write as a therapist, so I’m careful in sort of what I input. [00:43:55] And I’m also mindful with what it says. And this is this is where it’s it’s [00:44:00] an issue because if you’re just saying help me and it comes back with very basic and [00:44:05] sometimes very good solutions, it’s still not taking into account your own [00:44:10] experiences, your beliefs, Your past, your wounds, your all [00:44:15] of it. It’s not taking in the bigger picture because it doesn’t know you. You might you could input [00:44:20] it the data. And yeah, it could probably help here and there. And I think for some things it’s amazing. And [00:44:25] actually I think the future when it comes to AI and therapy is it will likely team together. [00:44:30] I don’t know how. I just think it will. You know, there’s plenty of, um, online therapy [00:44:35] services now where, um, you can have a therapy session with somebody and the [00:44:40] AI will pop up and it will say, oh, he’s looking a bit sad today. Maybe point out his [00:44:45] body language. I know these things exist, and they’re they’re amazing. But, um, at [00:44:50] the end of the day, the therapeutic relationship between patient and therapist [00:44:55] is what makes therapy powerful. It’s what helps us to heal. And I don’t [00:45:00] believe AI is quite there yet because we need to be with humans. We need to have that human [00:45:05] understanding to be seen, to be heard. Yes, I can give us top lines. Yes, [00:45:10] it can give us solutions. But it’s not the same as being with a human and sitting. [00:45:15]

Payman Langroudi: Not yet.

Stina Sanders : Not yet. But it might do one day.

Rhona Eskander: Do you think ChatGPT can be [00:45:20] dangerous if it’s used for therapeutic needs?

Stina Sanders : Yes, absolutely. Oh, completely. [00:45:25] Well, you hear all these horror stories where somebody has taken their own life because ChatGPT [00:45:30] told them to. What? Yes. It’s not that regulated. And I think this is the [00:45:35] issue. And that’s what I was saying to you. I didn’t mean to sound like a know it all. And I know what to sort of [00:45:40] say because I’m, you know, someone who’s incredibly vulnerable. Chatgpt could send [00:45:45] them completely down a rabbit hole and and. Yeah, it’s it’s it can be dangerous, [00:45:50] but also it depending on the situation, it can be also really great. It can be really beneficial. [00:45:55] It can highlight things that you didn’t know about yourself or knew what to do. And so [00:46:00] I think.

Payman Langroudi: But there are good and bad therapists as well. Right.

Stina Sanders : Oh my.

Payman Langroudi: God.

Stina Sanders : So yes. [00:46:05]

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t have to be AI. That’s the bad therapy.

Stina Sanders : No. And oh my God, When [00:46:10] choosing a therapist, make sure they’re accredited.

Payman Langroudi: What would you say is the the thing [00:46:15] that’s most important? Would you really, literally be the chemistry between you and the therapist?

Stina Sanders : Definitely. [00:46:20] Always. Nine times out of ten, yeah, the relationship is the most important because if you don’t [00:46:25] feel safe with your therapist, you don’t feel respected. Or I had a therapy session recently, [00:46:30] actually, I was I was trying out something I’d never had, I had never experienced as [00:46:35] a therapist. I went booked in this session. This woman, I have never felt so [00:46:40] judged. And bear in mind, she had degrees all up on her wall behind her. She [00:46:45] was very well qualified and she asked me out of the 50 minutes, [00:46:50] how do you feel? And I bloody told her. And I said, yeah, I did. I said, I feel incredibly judged. [00:46:55] And she said, well, what do you mean? And I said, I’ll tell you what I mean. And I laid it out and [00:47:00] the old me would never have done that, but I thought, you know what? I’m in the field. And actually you need to be told, [00:47:05] because I get someone more vulnerable who doesn’t have the understanding of how therapy works might [00:47:10] have just taken it, you know. She was talking about my old. I used to be a [00:47:15] glamour model, and I was talking about that. And she, she, she [00:47:20] was very, like, disturbed by it, you know, because that was her own biases and her own beliefs. [00:47:25] And you know what? That’s fine. But leave that outside the door. You know, there’s loads of people [00:47:30] that I’ve worked with where I don’t agree with things or, you know, we have completely, completely [00:47:35] different beliefs or whatever, but you don’t do that as a therapist. There’s so many bad therapists [00:47:40] out there. It’s very.

Rhona Eskander: Scary. I’ve been through so many, and the problem is really stuck with [00:47:45] some way too long because I was like, oh, maybe it’s just like the way they are, and maybe it’s just me. And I was like, oh my God. And [00:47:50] then when I found.

Payman Langroudi: I knew what it really was.

Rhona Eskander: And then when I found Ella, I was like, oh my God, yeah, this is so [00:47:55] easy.

Stina Sanders : And it’s your relationship with her. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So and I think, I think, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Modelling [00:48:00] right is all about the way you look.

Stina Sanders : Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whereas what you’re doing [00:48:05] now is all about what’s in your head. Yeah. And that’s a that’s a great thing, right?

Stina Sanders : It’s [00:48:10] the narcissist side of me.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s a great thing, right? It’s a great [00:48:15] thing because when you talk to models, a lot of times they’re really frustrated with the fact that the way they look [00:48:20] is the only thing that.

Stina Sanders : Anyone’s interested in. Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: But also I’ve found [00:48:25] interactions. There’s a lot of unhealthy toxicity going on with models. [00:48:30]

Stina Sanders : As in in their in how they are feeling about.

Payman Langroudi: Themselves, [00:48:35] maybe the rejection of castings.

Stina Sanders : And.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s like a tough [00:48:40] life.

Stina Sanders : Oh my god. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because it sounds like such a glamorous life right? No.

Stina Sanders : It’s horrendous. [00:48:45] It’s like I remember going to a casting. I’m quite athletic and like, I’ve got quite, you [00:48:50] know, I’ve got muscles. And I remember going in and it was six men [00:48:55] on a, um, on a bench, on a stand or whatever. And they went and they’re talking about me [00:49:00] as if I’m not even in the room. I’m standing as far as I am to you. And they’re going. Her legs are too fat. [00:49:05] I was seven In stone.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Stina Sanders : What? It’s just so toxic. [00:49:10] And I can laugh at it now. But, you know, I went home and I cried. But unfortunately, you do [00:49:15] develop this really thick skin. But. But having said that, I still remember that. [00:49:20] I remember how they made me feel. It’s really. Yeah. Just so toxic. So [00:49:25] toxic. I’m glad to be out of that.

Rhona Eskander: No. Completely. [00:49:30] So I want to go on a little bit onto, um, [00:49:35] self-awareness. Right. So have there been moments when [00:49:40] you felt like you were losing yourself? And how did you come back from that? Even with your new career [00:49:45] and your new your kind of new journey?

Stina Sanders : Yeah. So many. There’s been so [00:49:50] many times I’ve completely lost myself. And unfortunately it has been often to do with relationships [00:49:55] and yeah, just forgetting. Forgetting [00:50:00] kind of my self-worth and what’s important to me. And, um, has. [00:50:05]

Rhona Eskander: That shifted with the baby?

Stina Sanders : Yes. Oh my God. Do you know what I was saying [00:50:10] to my mum the other day? I’ve always had relatively good boundaries. I mean, I [00:50:15] communicate for a living, but I’m quite good at sort of putting down my lines. But [00:50:20] I would always have this from being a certified people pleaser. Back in the day, I always [00:50:25] felt guilty sort of putting my boundaries in or communicating. There’d always be a part of me where I go, I know this [00:50:30] is right, but I feel a little bit bad about doing it. Whereas now the pregnancy is like, no, [00:50:35] that’s it. So leave it. Yeah, but it’s not me being horrible or not flexible. It’s just that’s [00:50:40] how I. It’s it’s again, it’s a protection thing of, you know, I’m not just protecting me. I’m [00:50:45] protecting somebody else. So it’s like this mother instinct overcomes.

Rhona Eskander: I think hormones are massively [00:50:50] like downplayed and misunderstood. And I think, again, that’s the problem with the medical system. [00:50:55] I had a doctor on this podcast that we talked about medical misogyny, [00:51:00] um, and how actually it happens all the time. Medical gaslighting and [00:51:05] medical misogyny. Because if it was men that had to deal with the hormones and what we go [00:51:10] through, so much more research would have gone into it. And she’s actually a menopause expert. So she [00:51:15] said that like such little funding goes towards female hormones and like you said, like [00:51:20] the cycles that women have to go through, you know, premenstrual with babies, [00:51:25] menopause, perimenopause. Things change so drastically. And I think it’s really important. [00:51:30] It has a huge impact on your mental health. Yes. Um, I suffer [00:51:35] from PMDD, which I really I become a different person. And I told my [00:51:40] therapist and I was like, I just it’s like I honestly become upset [00:51:45] and suicidal and sad. And then, like, as soon as my cycle, my period starts, I [00:51:50] feel better. Are you seeing more people recognising as well that PMDD is a massive [00:51:55] part of their mental health journey?

Stina Sanders : I’m seeing that everywhere, even [00:52:00] in personal with personal trainers, they’re really taking in our sort of cycle [00:52:05] a bit more important because, you know, when you’re ovulating, I think that’s the I can never [00:52:10] say the word. Thank you. Yeah. Get my words out. So yeah, [00:52:15] there’s a much better understanding now because for years it was kind of like, well, get on with it, you know? Um, [00:52:20] yeah. For sure. You, you definitely have to take in. [00:52:25] And again, this is something else that I couldn’t probably do unless you told [00:52:30] it. Again, it’s about inputting the right data. You know, you have to take the person as [00:52:35] everything from spiritually, emotionally, mentally, physically, um, [00:52:40] so much that plays into who we are and what we think.

Rhona Eskander: And if you are [00:52:45] somebody that suffers with hormonal imbalances and PMDD, what would you suggest.

Stina Sanders : For [00:52:50] just in general.

Rhona Eskander: To deal with that.

Stina Sanders : Self-care? Yeah, always first. [00:52:55] And obviously talk to your GP and make sure, you know, there’s things that that there [00:53:00] might be some things that they can give you or help you with. But self-care first? Always.

Rhona Eskander: Are [00:53:05] you pro or against people taking medication like antidepressants?

Stina Sanders : I [00:53:10] am. If you want to do it and pro it. Yeah, I think I have nothing against it because [00:53:15] I have seen I have seen people again have their lives changed just by simply taking a tablet. [00:53:20] And I think that’s much better than sitting at home all day crying yourself to sleep. In my [00:53:25] opinion.

Rhona Eskander: Do you think that it’s important for people to take medication and have it alongside [00:53:30] talking therapy?

Stina Sanders : Definitely, definitely. And again, and exercise. [00:53:35] So, um, there’s an amazing book you’ve probably heard of it called The Body Keeps.

Rhona Eskander: The.

Stina Sanders : Score. [00:53:40]

Rhona Eskander: Have you read it?

Payman Langroudi: No, but you mentioned it.

Stina Sanders : Yeah, you must read it. It’s fantastic. It’s [00:53:45] brilliant. And he found that even talking therapy isn’t enough. [00:53:50] We have to do yoga. They actually found yoga was one of the best things you can do alongside talking [00:53:55] therapy. So it’s how I look at it is it’s like a pie, like a little pie. And there’s different sections you need [00:54:00] to have. Well, a better metaphor is, is a chair. You know, if you’ve [00:54:05] got one leg that’s that’s broken and you’re feeling a bit wobbly, we all need each part, each [00:54:10] area of our life, sturdy and stable. You can’t just rely on one leg or one thing [00:54:15] like therapy. So yeah, always, always combination. I’ll always say to the client, you know, let’s [00:54:20] talk about your self-care. What are you doing? Everyone rolls their eyes. Oh bloody hell. How’s your [00:54:25] sleep? You know, and and you work out. Oh, actually, they’ve only had two hours of sleep in [00:54:30] this whole week. No wonder they’re emotionally up and down. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Sleep is so important.

Stina Sanders : It’s [00:54:35] so important in relationships.

Payman Langroudi: Do you break them down into a [00:54:40] few types, or are they really all as nuanced as we like to think?

Rhona Eskander: Do [00:54:45] you mean a diagnosis? Is that what you mean?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. When people when people come [00:54:50] to you with relationship issues. Yeah. Are they are they like six basic types and that’s it. Or [00:54:55] or is it like 600?

Stina Sanders : 6 million.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Stina Sanders : Yeah, [00:55:00] because this is the thing. Like people always say to me like, oh, your [00:55:05] own experiences, which, you know, my abusive relationships and, and I’ve [00:55:10] grown up with a disabled brother and, you know, all these things that we’ve gone through in our lives, of course, [00:55:15] make us human and give us the wisdom and blah, blah, blah, blah. But and yes, it’s given [00:55:20] me empathy and it’s flex that muscle and all the rest of it. But actually my experiences [00:55:25] will never be yours or yours and, and, um, you know, you might have someone [00:55:30] come in who’s in an abusive relationship and, you know, the signs and you, but actually it’s just different [00:55:35] every time, even though it might have similarities. And you go, okay, yes. This is, you know, was [00:55:40] it.

Payman Langroudi: Detective work where you’re like, kind of trying to work out where it’s all coming from? [00:55:45]

Stina Sanders : Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Because and you deal with couples at the same time. [00:55:50]

Stina Sanders : Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me about that. What happens when couples couple comes and what [00:55:55] are the classic situations that sexless marriage.

Stina Sanders : Yeah. Can be me anything.

Payman Langroudi: Where do [00:56:00] you start?

Stina Sanders : I mean, how long have we got? It’s. It’s so I [00:56:05] do something. I’m an integrative therapist, so I bring in different styles and approaches [00:56:10] into my session. And yeah, for the first I would say 2 or 3 sessions. [00:56:15] I’m very person centred. So I allow them or whoever [00:56:20] I’m speaking with to tell me exactly what they’re thinking, feeling. And eventually as [00:56:25] the our relationship builds together, I might start bringing in different sort of, um, [00:56:30] techniques that might be CBT. So it might be Socratic questioning where I’ll sort [00:56:35] of highlight things. It might be somatic work. So it’s like, where do you feel that in your body it might be psychodynamic. [00:56:40] Where? Tell me where you’ve noticed that pattern before. It’s probably something to do with their [00:56:45] childhood. There’s so many different ways you can take it. Um, but I would say in the sort [00:56:50] of when, when I’m building my relationship and trying to understand my client, I am a detective, I [00:56:55] guess because I’m sitting and I’m taking it all in and absorbing it and trying to sort of work out [00:57:00] where are we going? But often or not, you think it’s going to go one way because you just [00:57:05] do you think, okay, I think they’re going to this is what’s going to happen. And then they take it the other way and you’re like, oh, okay. So you [00:57:10] have to be quite fluid as well as a therapist to just be like you. The client has [00:57:15] to lead you. It’s not me being directive at all. So yeah, it’s different [00:57:20] with everybody, every single person. And I always learn from the client, always [00:57:25] learn every day I walk away and I’m like, God, didn’t think that was going to happen or something [00:57:30] quite profound or touching happened.

Rhona Eskander: It’s that’s why I think everyone in medicine and dentistry [00:57:35] has to be like that. I think this directive approach is not what patients want. Like you can’t tell the patient, I [00:57:40] would do this. You need to do this. Like obviously like if you have to deal with disease, fine. Like perio [00:57:45] and caries. But you know like now especially like with the cosmetic dentistry, [00:57:50] you need to listen. Patients take offence when you’re like, I do this, why is your tooth twisted? Do you know what I mean? [00:57:55] Yeah. Which is why, like people come to me for my consultation, like, Oh, I love the way you like. You know, embrace this and you [00:58:00] do this. And not one case is the same. You know what I mean? Like this prescriptive approach I just think is [00:58:05] not working.

Stina Sanders : No, no, I agree with you.

Rhona Eskander: So for anyone who is struggling at [00:58:10] the moment apart from getting on ChatGPT.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:58:15] have you done it?

Rhona Eskander: What? Chatgpt I talked to ChatGPT all the time as a therapist. As a [00:58:20] friend? Yeah, kind of like as a friend. Therapist. Like, my friends have said it to me a million times, so [00:58:25] I just like, need to have that advice. Almost reinforced because I wake.

Payman Langroudi: Up free one or the paid one? [00:58:30]

Rhona Eskander: Paid?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Awesome.

Rhona Eskander: Um, but I do find it quite disturbing how some [00:58:35] of my friends have said, like, they don’t need therapy and they can just sit and just stay in on night [00:58:40] in and just chat to ChatGPT for hours. Do you know what I mean? And these are, like, really amazing [00:58:45] people. But I know, so I thought it was an interesting conversation. But for those that are struggling [00:58:50] and haven’t embarked on a journey of self-discovery or feel that their patterns are constantly repeating [00:58:55] themselves, their life is not getting any better, whether that’s love, career. Friendships, etc.. [00:59:00] What would be your advice? Some simple steps to take to sort of. Discover how you can make your life [00:59:05] better.

Stina Sanders : Obviously I’m biased, but therapy? Go to a therapist. Yes. Chatgpt. [00:59:10] In the interim, you’re allowed to use it. But. But talking to somebody is is [00:59:15] 100% the first step. Because we when you’re stuck. Even [00:59:20] when you’re typing into ChatGPT the situation, you’re actually stuck. You’re not thinking [00:59:25] outside, but when you’re talking to a human, they can, you know, bounce off. We’ve already gone through this, but bounce [00:59:30] off sort of different ideas and everything. But, um, yeah, it’s I [00:59:35] think when we have if you’re aware of a pattern, that’s [00:59:40] also a very good sign because if you’re, if you like, hang on a minute, okay. Keep attracting red [00:59:45] flags. That’s awareness. That’s good. That’s the first step as well.

Rhona Eskander: Keep chasing the high [00:59:50] just because it feels like love.

Stina Sanders : Yeah okay. Go on. So having that awareness [00:59:55] is a good first step as well. And looking in that mirror and I think really, you [01:00:00] can only really do that in therapy. And looking at the patterns, where does that come from? Why? [01:00:05] How do you feel about that? What do you believe? Like who’s who’s saying that? [01:00:10] That thought. That negative thought. Is it little Rhona? Is it 20 year old [01:00:15] Rhona? Is it? Do you know what I mean? It’s like you can break that down. And. And I mean again. [01:00:20] How long have you got? You can go so many different ways with therapy I love it.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing. [01:00:25]

Payman Langroudi: I tell it to ask me 20 questions.

Stina Sanders : Ask you 20 questions okay. And then it gets to know you. [01:00:30]

Payman Langroudi: Get to know me. And I find that whatever the situation is not, not not necessarily [01:00:35] like in a therapy situation.

Stina Sanders : Yeah. The thing is though, with ChatGPT it’s not going [01:00:40] to.

Rhona Eskander: It’s not conscious.

Stina Sanders : Yeah, exactly. And it’s very basic.

Payman Langroudi: I’m [01:00:45] talking about, for instance, customer experience. Yeah. To act as a customer experience expert [01:00:50] work.

Rhona Eskander: That’s work.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not asking questions about my business.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Yeah. Fine.

Payman Langroudi: And then suggest doing [01:00:55] the same thing with that same thing.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, but I think I think business versus mental health is two different things because business [01:01:00] is about data as well. Whereas mental health, you can extrapolate things from data. But every [01:01:05] human being is hugely complex. It’s like getting a machine to do veneers. You’re never going to get the [01:01:10] same result with handmade. On that note, how can people find you? [01:01:15]

Stina Sanders : You can find me on Instagram and TikTok. My name is Dina Sanders.

Rhona Eskander: Thank [01:01:20] you so much. And if people do want to look you up sessions with you or to do any therapy [01:01:25] or coaching.

Stina Sanders : Yeah. So I actually have a website in the in the making as it stands, but you can just go [01:01:30] on my Instagram or TikTok and join a waiting list because I am opening up my [01:01:35] clinic next month.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing. And that will be with Baby Bump.

Stina Sanders : Um, majority is online, [01:01:40] believe it or not. Yeah. Um, but my clinic will be in Soho, London.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so you’ll [01:01:45] have a physical site as well?

Stina Sanders : Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Thank you so much, Dina. That was incredible. Lovely to.

Stina Sanders : Meet you. [01:01:50] Lovely to.

[TRANSITION]: Meet you. Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] Enlightened Online Training.com to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time whitening Underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you [00:00:30] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:40] Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Mojdeh Rampur [00:00:45] onto the podcast Doctor Moj, otherwise known as Doctor Moj. Um, good to have [00:00:50] you, buddy. Nice. Nice for you to come round the corner from where you live, right?

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah, it’s actually very, [00:00:55] very, very close. Unlike some of your guests, I imagine have had long, long, arduous journeys. Mine [00:01:00] was pretty quick. It was a 12 minute Uber Uber journey. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So and your practice [00:01:05] is very nearby.

Moj Dehghanpour: Practice is very nearby. So yeah. Well, first of all, firstly, thank you for inviting [00:01:10] me. My pleasure. Um, you know, I’ve watched many of your podcasts in the past [00:01:15] and, uh, it’s it’s it’s it’s a pleasure to be here today. Uh, but. Yeah. [00:01:20] So as you said, doctor moj is, uh, uh, [00:01:25] people call me sometimes, but, um, but yeah, it’s just moj watch.

Payman Langroudi: I see you around at [00:01:30] the dental education events. You’re always at all of them. Um, and, [00:01:35] uh, I always think, what a cool dude, man.

Moj Dehghanpour: Uh.

Payman Langroudi: Were you always cool?

Moj Dehghanpour: Well, [00:01:40] I wasn’t actually. No, I was the genuine inflection point.

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Moj Dehghanpour: It [00:01:45] was a good question. Um, I don’t yeah, I mean, I don’t I don’t think I consider myself [00:01:50] cool now, so I don’t think that that point has actually been reached quite yet. But anyway, it’s very kind of you [00:01:55] to say so. Um, no, it’s. Listen, I. I. You’re [00:02:00] right. We always do tend to bump each other sort of on the Dental circuit at various events [00:02:05] and, um, you know, the the. Yeah. The reason for that, really is that [00:02:10] I do love dentistry. I am a bit of a dental geek, so. And, um, [00:02:15] maybe less so now, but I used to be also a one of those sort of cliche course [00:02:20] junkies as well. So I was, you know, every course you could think of from a very, very early stage.

Payman Langroudi: When [00:02:25] did that kick in? I mean, were you a very conscientious dental student, very conscientious A-level person, [00:02:30] or was it after you qualified some people was after.

Moj Dehghanpour: It was after. [00:02:35] Look, in all honesty, I can remember and, you know, we can touch on this, but, you [00:02:40] know, I was born in Iran, um, and I [00:02:45] actually studied, uh, sort of the first, my first year [00:02:50] at school there. And then we moved here when I was around sort of seven years old.

Payman Langroudi: Do you remember?

Moj Dehghanpour: Uh, [00:02:55] I have very vague recollections of of the school in Iran. [00:03:00] Um, I did have a one month stint after that because we went back for [00:03:05] for a few months. And I do remember that. And that was a couple of years after we first moved here. And that was [00:03:10] that was nice, because all I remember is the, the, um, the deputy head in the classroom with [00:03:15] a some kind of weapon to, to sort of beat kids. I think it was [00:03:20] like a baton, literally. Um, so he called a few kids up to the front and sort [00:03:25] of asking them questions, and if they didn’t know, they got, you know, sort of whack on the palm of the hand. But I do remember [00:03:30] that, and I probably was around 9 or 10 years old then. Um, but um, but [00:03:35] yeah, I wasn’t. I do remember when, when we first moved here in one [00:03:40] of the parents evenings. I can’t remember when it was, but it was pretty. I must have been quite young. Uh, [00:03:45] one of the teacher said he’s quite bright, but he doesn’t pay attention in class, and he’s, you know, constantly, [00:03:50] like losing focus and things like that. I do have this sort of recollection of that being said [00:03:55] or my mum telling me afterwards, um, so I was never I wouldn’t say I was an amazing [00:04:00] student. Um, I went to, um, [00:04:05] pretty, in fact, pretty, pretty bad schools, [00:04:10] uh, up until my A-levels. Uh, I went to [00:04:15] a comprehensive, uh, down in London. Maybe. [00:04:20] Maybe, I don’t know. I don’t know if I should mention the name or not.

Payman Langroudi: Why not? Why not?

Moj Dehghanpour: Um, it’s called Westminster [00:04:25] City. Uh, it’s in Victoria Common. Very easily confused with Westminster [00:04:30] School, which we could not be more further apart. Right. [00:04:35] So usually whenever I say to someone. Westminster City, Westminster School, you know about half of Parliament’s from there, [00:04:40] you know, and um and but it’s like no, no, no that word city [00:04:45] at the end, it makes a massive difference to the equation. Um, but interestingly, [00:04:50] the health secretary was actually my year. Which health secretary Wes Streeting.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Moj Dehghanpour: So [00:04:55] if you’re if you’re, if you’re.

Payman Langroudi: In your.

Moj Dehghanpour: Year in my year and we were sort of we weren’t close friends [00:05:00] but you know, it was someone I would you know, we would play and, you know, play playground [00:05:05] and, you know, break times and lunch times I would see and, uh, so whereas if you’re watching this [00:05:10] fixed dentistry, so you probably don’t remember me, but I [00:05:15] do remember him quite reasonably well. Uh, he was he was definitely a lot more studious than me when I was, [00:05:20] when I was younger.

Payman Langroudi: Do you remember your sort of impression of Britain and school [00:05:25] when you got here compared to Iran? I mean, and.

Moj Dehghanpour: It was a lot more relaxed. [00:05:30] It was a. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, first few years I, you know, I in all honesty, [00:05:35] I found it sort of I found it very easy and sort of child’s play really. Uh, [00:05:40] the first few years at least, until sort of my, my system readjusted to, to sort of the [00:05:45] British system. Um, but.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t speak the language.

Moj Dehghanpour: I didn’t speak the language. No. [00:05:50] So, um. So, yeah, it was difficult. It was difficult, um, when we when we [00:05:55] in fact, when we first came, um, I remember, uh, first [00:06:00] few days in, in a winter school, uh, you know, not far [00:06:05] from here and, uh, primary school, you know, we were sitting on the floor. The teacher was [00:06:10] there sort of blabbering away. I didn’t have a clue what he was saying. And, uh, [00:06:15] so I was, you know, I sort of looked across and saw this boy next to me sort [00:06:20] of drawing in his little exercise book, and, uh, and [00:06:25] I sort of looked and he was drawing a tank, and I thought, okay, it must be, it must be art [00:06:30] class. So, so then I, you know, had a pencil or whatever. And then I started doodling away and [00:06:35] drawing a tank as well. And then next thing I know, the teacher comes across and um, starts [00:06:40] sort of, uh, in a sort of slightly irritated voice saying, you know, [00:06:45] I imagine at the time said, what are you kids doing? You know. And then I quickly realised, actually, [00:06:50] it’s not art. This idiot next to me was just was just doodling away.

Payman Langroudi: So so [00:06:55] funny. What sticks with you, man? Because, yeah, my first day of school here, I actually used to go to an [00:07:00] English school in Iran. But, you know, obviously my English wasn’t great because, uh, the [00:07:05] teacher kept shouting. Silence, silence. And I thought silence was this person, [00:07:10] you know, like this real naughty kid that could have confused with Simon or something. [00:07:15] Yeah. And that stuck with me, you know.

Moj Dehghanpour: Until now. It’s funny.

Payman Langroudi: But my first impressions [00:07:20] of the UK, when I came, it was a difficult time. In the UK, it was [00:07:25] the summer, winter, winter of discontent. Yeah. So 1978, [00:07:30] the oil price because of Iran.

Moj Dehghanpour: Had gone.

Payman Langroudi: Through the.

Moj Dehghanpour: Roof, through the roof.

Payman Langroudi: And everything was [00:07:35] broken in Britain. Everything. Nothing was working. There was there was rubbish piled up. [00:07:40] There was a general strike. Everyone was on strike, including, you know, the guys who bury, [00:07:45] you know, for burials.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so there was a [00:07:50] funny smell and it was a it was dark and it was raining. And I remember thinking, what the hell [00:07:55] happened to our family, man? You know, like, you know, like we’ve been downgraded. Yeah, yeah. What was your what was your [00:08:00] initial feeling?

[TRANSITION]: Um, I mean, look.

Moj Dehghanpour: So, uh, we moved [00:08:05] in. Um, it was 89, so. Yeah, I guess some.

Payman Langroudi: Years, ten years [00:08:10] later.

Moj Dehghanpour: The stench had probably disappeared largely by then.

Payman Langroudi: No, 89 Britain.

Moj Dehghanpour: Was a great place, right? [00:08:15] So, yeah. Um. Um, yeah. No, it’s. I can’t say [00:08:20] I’ve got a lot of memories I can remember vividly, but I [00:08:25] just remember it being we didn’t have any family here. Right? Um, [00:08:30] so it it was me. I had, uh, we were a family of three boys. I’m [00:08:35] the eldest. Um, the youngest is also a dentist. He’s an endodontist. [00:08:40] My brother, um, and my middle brother’s sort of in finance. [00:08:45] He does something completely different. Um, but we came here, you know, as as I said, we didn’t. I didn’t [00:08:50] speak English as my mum was at home. Uh, and, um, [00:08:55] you know, my dad would go to work, and then it was just my mum and the three boys basically at home, you know, sort of housewife, [00:09:00] sort of, uh, being a housewife and looking after the kids. And it was difficult. And it was challenging because [00:09:05] my actually the first sort of within the first sort of 6 to 12 [00:09:10] months of us being here, my dad was taken sort of ill into hospital and he wasn’t well, [00:09:15] um, and um, they couldn’t quite figure out what was going on. They said issues with [00:09:20] his kidneys and, um, and then I think they finally said, oh, it must be kidney stones or something. [00:09:25] And they were going to operate. And he was in hospital for, for some time. And, you know, we were at home by [00:09:30] ourselves and very you know, my [00:09:35] background is for a very humble background.

Moj Dehghanpour: It wasn’t you know, we weren’t sort of, um. Apart [00:09:40] from each other. We didn’t have a lot. I would say, um, [00:09:45] one memory I would have is, uh, one of my dad’s colleagues. [00:09:50] Actually, one day he came and picked me up and he took me out, you know, to sort of [00:09:55] whilst my dad was in hospital. And, um, he bought me a [00:10:00] Happy Meal. And I remember that was like, wow. You know, it’s amazing. It’s such a great day. You know, just because [00:10:05] the fact that I’ve got this Happy Meal and I’ve got the toy, which normally I wouldn’t get when my dad was there and, [00:10:10] um, you know, it’s just in terms of what Britain was [00:10:15] like, um, I guess. More than anything [00:10:20] that sticks with me now is that that those, those sort of memories of, of [00:10:25] it was, you know, it was it was a bit of a struggle. In all honesty. I didn’t I didn’t see [00:10:30] the, the positive aspects necessarily of Britain. Okay. In a different [00:10:35] way to yourself. Like, you know, um, I didn’t think oh great. Oh we’re in, we’re in, we’re in England [00:10:40] now, England now. You know, life’s great, you know. It wasn’t. I missed my cousins. I missed the family, you know, [00:10:45] etc.. Um, and, you know, those days there was no WhatsApp video [00:10:50] call or zoom or whatever you call.

Payman Langroudi: You underestimate how long it takes to assimilate into a new [00:10:55] culture. Yeah, because we’ve got people working here now. Yeah, they’ve been here three years. Four [00:11:00] years sometimes. And that’s some of the most difficult times, you know, because three, four years in [00:11:05] you definitely don’t fit in here yet. Yeah. And and interestingly you don’t [00:11:10] fit in back home either. Yeah. Because for 3 or 4 years, people I mean, you were saying Iran-Iraq War. [00:11:15] Yeah. If you, if once you’d gone back to Iran, people had been through like a bit of [00:11:20] war that you hadn’t been through. Exactly. And people underestimate it. It takes I think it takes [00:11:25] a good 7 or 8 years before you start calling the new place home. Yeah. Or feeling like it’s home? [00:11:30] Yeah. So you were in this sort of tough, comprehensive school?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. So, [00:11:35] yeah.

Moj Dehghanpour: So I went to. So after I after finished at that was a primary school. [00:11:40] Went to a secondary school that uh upon advice of one [00:11:45] of my dad’s friends. His son was also there. This was a school in, uh, like I said, [00:11:50] it was in Victoria, Westminster City. And, uh, he was ill [00:11:55] informed that this was a good school and it was far from it. I mean, we had the, you know, [00:12:00] the whole full shebang of drugs and, uh, knives [00:12:05] and stabbings in the school. And I witnessed someone one, one a student, [00:12:10] fellow student in the class get stabbed. You know, this boy, I’ll never forget it. He [00:12:15] just came into the class and he said something along the lines of, um, I don’t know. His uncle had passed away, [00:12:20] and, um, he basically was just like, look, you know, I’m not in the mood today. No [00:12:25] one sort of bothered me. And one of the other boys, it was this was a boys [00:12:30] school, one of the other boys who was sort of a known bully, let’s say, didn’t [00:12:35] sort of take that, didn’t sit well with him being told what to do. And he [00:12:40] literally just sort of grabbed him, you know, by his collar and pushed him against the wall and said, who [00:12:45] do you think you are? You know, kind of thing. And at the time, that boy was cutting something up with a pair of scissors, [00:12:50] and all I saw was just like him just going.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Moj Dehghanpour: Stabbed him in the arm. Obviously wearing white [00:12:55] shirts and ties and whatever uniform just arm just went full on red.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. [00:13:00]

Moj Dehghanpour: Um, teacher got raped outside school gates.

Payman Langroudi: Whoa.

Moj Dehghanpour: This is, [00:13:05] you know, uh, it’s. I mean, we had to work. I mean, I, I got bullied, I got bullied, [00:13:10] so when I first joined, I was like the new kid, right? I didn’t join in year seven. I was slightly later for some [00:13:15] reason, because we.

Payman Langroudi: Stood out somehow.

Moj Dehghanpour: New kid. Yeah. Got the new kid treatment. Um, [00:13:20] uh, I remember I used to get sent out, um, various points throughout the [00:13:25] day. There would be like, uh, go and scout some penny sweets, you know, cola bottles. You’d get these [00:13:30] from the local corner shop, you’d get these little bags of, you probably remember, uh, bags of sweets, [00:13:35] 2020 cola bottles for like £0.20 or something. And so, you know, [00:13:40] I was in year eight or year nine, you know, we weren’t allowed to go out to school grounds, but I had to go to school, [00:13:45] you know, next to the school gates, make sure there’s no one around, run to the shop, buy them the [00:13:50] sweets from my with my own money, run back, make sure no one sees me. And then? And then this [00:13:55] can continued for a while until I thought, you know what? Enough’s enough. I’m not going to take this no more. So I sort of [00:14:00] went to the deputy head one day and I said, listen, this is what’s happening. And, [00:14:05] uh, yeah, it’s just basically ruining my life here, you know, kind of thing. [00:14:10] So, um, anyway, so all this went on, it was, it was, it was not a [00:14:15] great school. So. So then.

Payman Langroudi: You switched an A-level to another.

Moj Dehghanpour: A-levels. Somehow, miraculously, [00:14:20] I did well in my GCSEs. Yeah. And I ended up in a school [00:14:25] called QE Boys in High Barnet, which is, I think, even to this day, is one of the best [00:14:30] state schools in the country as a grammar school. And and again, there were worlds apart, you [00:14:35] know, all of a sudden I was like the rebel of this school, you know.

Payman Langroudi: So can I ask, what did the Westminster [00:14:40] City, whatever you called it, the Westminster. Westminster City, what did it give you? I mean, did it give you street [00:14:45] smarts?

Moj Dehghanpour: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Like getting on with all different types of people?

Moj Dehghanpour: Yes. Um, [00:14:50] so what I would say is, and and this I do, [00:14:55] I do genuinely believe that my journey uh, to, to [00:15:00] till today and, you know, we’ll go into sort of various aspects of it has [00:15:05] definitely shaped who I am and [00:15:10] shaped how I, how I behave around people outside of work [00:15:15] and also with patients. And I think thanks to those types of experiences [00:15:20] now, I don’t necessarily wish it on other people or my own kids, for example. Um, [00:15:25] but as a result of that hardship, I now can [00:15:30] relate to certain people that maybe one day my son will never be able to. For example, or [00:15:35] some of my friends who have not had their same experience can’t. You know, I and and and [00:15:40] I’ve sort of I realised the importance of this after. [00:15:45] Sort of witnessing certain other people throughout my journey as well. One of. One [00:15:50] of whom actually was at university was, uh, my friend Millard [00:15:55] as well. Millard. Singing dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Were you University with them?

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah. It was, it was three, 2 or 3 years above me [00:16:00] at uni.

Payman Langroudi: And Nilesh.

Moj Dehghanpour: And Nilesh. Yeah. Uh, so Nilesh obviously, I think. Same. [00:16:05] Yeah, yeah. Um, I have one memory of Millard at university. He probably [00:16:10] won’t remember it, but I remember it clearly to this day. And where we [00:16:15] were in the oral surgery clinic, and we were I was probably at the time it must [00:16:20] have been second year or third year. So I was just starting up and I saw this like fourth year or fifth year student, you know, we would, you know, [00:16:25] at that time with God.

Payman Langroudi: With.

Moj Dehghanpour: Hair, uh, I think he did you’re right. I think, yeah, [00:16:30] he did have hair at that point. Um, and, um, and, uh, [00:16:35] well, he’s apparently looking at his new song. He’s got hair again all of a sudden. Um, so he [00:16:40] we’re in oral surgery. He was a bit. He was getting a patient into one of the oral surgery bays, and I, we [00:16:45] went to Barts, so, um, and he literally [00:16:50] got the patient, and the patient didn’t speak English very well. Or maybe at all. All [00:16:55] I remember is saying to this patient, come here, darling, put your something [00:17:00] like bum cheeks or buttocks or something like that. And he’s tapping the, the the dental [00:17:05] chair. Right.

Payman Langroudi: Like that. Yeah.

Moj Dehghanpour: Put your buttocks on here. Come on, come on. And I remember thinking, [00:17:10] thinking, man, what are you on about? You know, how can you talk to someone like that? But listen, you know what? [00:17:15] The lady had a smile on her face. Millard, as as per usual, always has a smile on his face. [00:17:20] And I was like, you know, wow. You know how he could just create that sort of bond by using [00:17:25] unconventional terminology? Let’s just say. So [00:17:30] he was he was one guy. I’ve got this memory of him. Right. And how he managed to connect with that patient. [00:17:35] Um, and then I, you know, there’s been other people. [00:17:40] Sort of along this journey that we can go through. Um, but as a result of going to that school. [00:17:45] Uh, and the experiences and the sort of the it was and it was tough. It was really [00:17:50] tough. And I genuinely didn’t enjoy being in that school. Um, [00:17:55] you know, um, I do feel I’ve got thicker skin. Yeah. [00:18:00] And I’ve managed to then go on and do things and sort of, again, relate to people on a different way. You [00:18:05] know, it was it was something else, you know, that school was something out of Top Boy or something. Like, you know.

Payman Langroudi: You think about it regarding [00:18:10] your own kids because I.

Moj Dehghanpour: Do, I do and I’ve had this chat. Multiple times with multiple people. [00:18:15] Um, and, um, you know, the whole thing about state [00:18:20] schools, private schools. You know, all of that stuff. And and to be honest, look, my [00:18:25] son now goes to, yes, a prep school. Okay. He’s five going [00:18:30] on six and he’s and he’s completely different world to what [00:18:35] I had in all honesty. Um, and yeah, the, the the resilience [00:18:40] that perhaps I had is just a kid born in Iran. [00:18:45] Came here, went through that journey. That’s it’s just not there. Well, at least not yet anyway. As [00:18:50] much as I would love for it to be there. Yeah, it may. It might be that actually, it’s [00:18:55] just unfair for me to have that expectation.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, look, it’ll end up like they say. They say [00:19:00] character is forged by pressure. Yeah. And and the kind of pressure [00:19:05] your kid is going to be under. It’d be a whole different.

Moj Dehghanpour: It’ll be a different pressure.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And they’re under pressure. These [00:19:10] kids now hundred percent.

Moj Dehghanpour: It’s a lot, you know, thanks to or thanks or no thanks to the world we live in and [00:19:15] the pace of life and AI now and social media and all that. You know, there’s so [00:19:20] much more competitive than it was. Right.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting. You know, like, for instance, Prav, he [00:19:25] puts down a lot of his success down to his dad’s corner shop. And the [00:19:30] point was, he said, you meet the whole of society in that corner [00:19:35] shop from the poor granny who had no one to talk to, to the rich businessman [00:19:40] who was in a hurry, to the young kid who he said would come back with a balaclava on and steal [00:19:45] from you. Yeah, but but you know, when he handled all these different types of humans, he knew how [00:19:50] to talk to everyone. And if you listen to Prav talking, he just talks so well.

Moj Dehghanpour: I have listened to that episode and [00:19:55] he’s spot on. He’s spot on. I think my own dad, he was he was a guy who [00:20:00] my my granddad, he would he would echo that my my dad’s dad. So [00:20:05] my paternal grandfather owned a fruit and veg shop in Iran. My, [00:20:10] my dad used to work from, I don’t know, the age of five or 6 or [00:20:15] 7 or something, apparently delivering milk to, to sort of. Yeah. And um, and he [00:20:20] says and to this day he he he works full time. My dad still works full time. He’s [00:20:25] got a sort of flooring business and he’s he’s another person [00:20:30] along the, you know, on, on on my journey obviously the OG of [00:20:35] of who I’ve seen and you know to a degree try to emulate because he’s amazing [00:20:40] with people. Now my dad obviously born and raised in Iran, [00:20:45] he went to the States. He’s got an MBA from from America. You know this is pre us [00:20:50] moving here and him getting married. He went back to Iran, got married. Then we came here um, [00:20:55] and then uh, opened up his own business and doing flooring and whatnot.

Moj Dehghanpour: And [00:21:00] you know, to this day he speaks in a very thick Iranian English accent. Of course, you know exactly [00:21:05] what that’s like, right? Yeah. So, um, so he and yet [00:21:10] he’s working in central London, he’s got business in central London. And, uh, he mingles [00:21:15] with some extremely affluent people, very normal people. But somehow. And I’ve seen him at [00:21:20] play in his domain, and somehow he manages to connect with a [00:21:25] guy who maybe has come from all types, all types, you know, and it all sort of [00:21:30] somehow connect with him and build bonds and rapport. And, you know, they call him up and, you know, and, [00:21:35] um, and he’s that type where he will sit in a taxi you can go on holiday with. I mean, I remember we went on a [00:21:40] family trip into Turkey and he’s like in Istanbul, sitting in a taxi, and he starts talking to this guy who could barely speak English, [00:21:45] and he just connects with people. He’s that type. And and I’ve always admired [00:21:50] that for sure. Um, and I think such a within dentistry is such [00:21:55] an in fact, I.

Payman Langroudi: Might be the most.

Moj Dehghanpour: Important. The most important. You know, there’s that classic thing [00:22:00] of dentistry, you know, I remember someone telling me it’s like 70% or 80% communication or 90% communication, [00:22:05] 10% what you do with your hands. And that’s something, you know, I was a trainer at one point or what they call [00:22:10] ISS, I think now.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Moj Dehghanpour: Um, you know, um, that’s something [00:22:15] I’ve always said to my younger sort of friends and colleagues. And, you know, something [00:22:20] I tried to remember as well is it’s not so much what you do with your hands that matters. It’s what [00:22:25] comes out of here.

Payman Langroudi: Um, you know, we underestimate as well not only patients. Yeah. [00:22:30]

Moj Dehghanpour: Day to.

[TRANSITION]: Day life. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Teams. Right? Yeah. It’s builders. You know, you’ve you’ve done this beautiful [00:22:35] practice. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. You’re, you’re you’re having to sell your vision to the electrician. The [00:22:40] plumber 100%. In a way. You have to talk. The communication skills are really important there. Yeah. Yeah. Let [00:22:45] alone patients, let alone patients. But you know, why did you choose dentistry? [00:22:50]

[TRANSITION]: Um.

Moj Dehghanpour: The classic sort of chose, [00:22:55] I want to say chose me. I don’t know if it chose me. I actually from, from when [00:23:00] I was around five. And this is going to sound very cheesy and completely cliche, but it is the [00:23:05] truth. From around the age of five, I wanted do medicine. It [00:23:10] was that sort of, again, classic thing of my my [00:23:15] mum’s mum, who was very close to. She’s still alive today, uh, had heart issues [00:23:20] and I say, oh, granny, granny. Don’t worry. You know, I’ll grow up and be a heart surgeon and fix you and you know, that kind of thing. [00:23:25] And so anyway, fast forward now to the time where, you [00:23:30] know, I’m doing my Ucas personal statements and I’m doing work experience and my A-levels and, [00:23:35] um, I did a load of work experience in various hospitals, you know, all over sort of London.

Payman Langroudi: So you [00:23:40] were thinking medicine?

Moj Dehghanpour: Oh, yeah. For sure. All the way, you know, from, like I say, from age of five, this is now, [00:23:45] what.

Payman Langroudi: 17?

Moj Dehghanpour: 17. Yeah. Basically 17 set 12 [00:23:50] years. Medicine, medicine, medicine. You know, everything was geared and it was like and obviously, again, sort of, uh, [00:23:55] sort of classic sort of Iranian parents, you know, like doctor, you know, I’ve heard that other fellow [00:24:00] Iranians say the same thing, or Asians say the same thing. You know, it’s that immigrant mindset. Um, and [00:24:05] then but interestingly, wherever I went and in particular, I remember one [00:24:10] experience, I was in UCL hospital UK. In the A&E department, [00:24:15] one night at around seven 8:00 at night I was there doing work experience [00:24:20] and one of the A&E consultants sat me down and [00:24:25] never forget this pen and paper. And he said, he sort of said, this is how much you’re going to earn. [00:24:30] This is how you’re going to do. This is what you need to do. This is your life broke. It really [00:24:35] broke it down right into numbers, but also more than that. And [00:24:40] he basically said, listen, do you want to be taking urine samples at 2 a.m. for less [00:24:45] than what the cleaner in the hospital will make? And I just looked at him and this [00:24:50] is at me, 17 thinking, no, not really. You know, I don’t [00:24:55] think I love it. All of a sudden, I don’t think I love medicine that much. And I think by that point my grandma was a bit better as well. So, you [00:25:00] know, I didn’t feel as guilty. Um, um, so after [00:25:05] that, my dad had a, a friend who, uh, was a dentist, [00:25:10] uh, was actually his.

Moj Dehghanpour: My mum and dad’s dentist. Basically, it’s like an NHS NHS dentist. [00:25:15] And um, I went there. I did work experience there and for [00:25:20] two weeks and this guy said, you know, these days I think all the grade requirements are all about the same, whether it’s medicine, [00:25:25] dentistry. Even in my time it was the same. Um, but back then apparently it [00:25:30] was medicine was slightly higher. So he said, listen, I didn’t get the grades to get into medicine, [00:25:35] but I thank God every single day that I didn’t. And, you know, I have more control over my hours. [00:25:40] It’s I enjoy it more, you know, it’s not as hectic, etc., [00:25:45] as medicine, but I’m still treating patients and I’m still, you know, you’re still in healthcare, so help [00:25:50] people, etc., etc.. So it has a lot of the positives and maybe fewer negatives. Yeah. [00:25:55] And so I was there for two weeks and I thought, you know what? Actually maybe he’s got a point. Um, and [00:26:00] so very as soon as I got back to uh, sixth form, uh, after [00:26:05] the summer break, this was during the summer September. It would have been, I don’t In [00:26:10] 2000, I think it was, um, I went back, changed [00:26:15] my personal statement to I’ve always wanted to do medicine to I’ve always wanted to do dentistry. [00:26:20] And that was it. Never looked back. And to be honest, now it is the best thing that happened to me, that work I [00:26:25] did. And I thank the person that, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Shout him out. Who was it? Do you know.

Moj Dehghanpour: His name was actually someone you probably [00:26:30] know or you’d certainly know the brother. It’s, um, Doctor Al-nahar, whose daughters are also, [00:26:35] uh, Safa, uh, has opened a practice, [00:26:40] but it’s, uh, it was Zuhair Al-nahar. So Bashar’s brother. [00:26:45]

Payman Langroudi: Was the practice in Kensington.

Moj Dehghanpour: In. Yeah, near Hammersmith. Kensington area.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:26:50] yeah yeah.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah, yeah. So I did that there. And, um, this is obviously, you know, going back so. [00:26:55] Yeah. Thank you. If you, if you do hear this and actually at the recently I [00:27:00] saw, uh, I.

Payman Langroudi: Should have him on the someone from that family needs to come.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah. [00:27:05] 100%. 100%. Yeah. An interesting story. Yeah. So, you know, obviously there were twin brothers [00:27:10] who were sort of dentists and I think there was a there was a third brother from my memory who’s sort of practice manager [00:27:15] type, you know, but it was because of him. It was because of one of the two twins. Um, [00:27:20] and, uh, that is the, you know, why London.

Payman Langroudi: Did you have a [00:27:25] sort of thing that you were going to stay in London?

Moj Dehghanpour: Um, I mean, listen, I’ve spent [00:27:30] London’s home, right? Um, I’ve spent most of my life in London, so. And and even to [00:27:35] this day when I go elsewhere, you know, I always consider London home. So. So [00:27:40] why why did I sort of.

Payman Langroudi: Stay in.

Moj Dehghanpour: London? Stay in London? Oh, for university, you mean? Yeah. Um, I [00:27:45] mean, I applied to I did apply to both London universities. It was, you know, [00:27:50] kings and Queen Mary’s and, um, and, um, and, [00:27:55] and I also applied to Birmingham. Manchester. Um, and so what happened was [00:28:00] I, I didn’t actually get the grades. I got four offers. Um, [00:28:05] and my intention. I did want to stay in London. I, I know, I know. [00:28:10] Um, there’s definite, I think, um, positives in [00:28:15] moving out. Um, and actually, I’ve spent probably a lot of time away [00:28:20] from home. Post-qualification. Funnily enough, uh, as you know, I’ve been to other places, [00:28:25] but, um, I didn’t get the grades. I think I was one [00:28:30] sixth of a percent off an A in. I [00:28:35] think it was. No, I needed a B in maths, I think, and I think I got a C in maths. So I ended up getting a b [00:28:40] c, which wasn’t quite enough. But somehow, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Queen Mary said.

Moj Dehghanpour: Queen Mary said come, [00:28:45] but not this year. Next year. So then I ended up taking a gap year.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, what did [00:28:50] you do with your gap year?

Moj Dehghanpour: Um, I did, um, so what I did was I actually. Yeah, I helped my dad out with his business for [00:28:55] a few months. Um, I because I didn’t know I was going to get that offer. I was in the [00:29:00] process of retaking my A-levels, and I did that. So for the first sort of three months [00:29:05] up until January. So after September, you know, so you’ve got this results in the summer and in September, October, November, December, [00:29:10] up until January, I retook my levels, I actually did I ended up getting, I think it was like three days or whatever at the [00:29:15] end, but but it was already too late. I got the offer from and I thought, okay, I accepted it, but [00:29:20] it was for the following intake. So January till summer I think. I held my dad out a little bit [00:29:25] with, with work. Um, and then um, I think I did [00:29:30] a bit of travelling and. Yeah, that was about it really. It didn’t really do an awful lot. I probably could have made better use of it, [00:29:35] to be fair. Um, and then started university. Okay. [00:29:40] Um, started university. And, um.

Payman Langroudi: How did you feel about Whitechapel Market? First time you saw that? [00:29:45] So.

Moj Dehghanpour: So I I’m not going to lie. And the guys [00:29:50] from King’s are probably going to be happy to hear this. I did want to go to King’s, and [00:29:55] I remember I’d never been honestly, I’d never been to the East End, ever. [00:30:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Moj Dehghanpour: I had no reason to go to the East End ever so. I remember the day I went [00:30:05] out for, I think it was for my interview in Whitechapel, and I came out Whitechapel Market, [00:30:10] and I was just like, you know, I was, you know, I’d grown up in like Saint John’s Wood. And I came out and I was.

Payman Langroudi: Like, hell yeah.

Moj Dehghanpour: What [00:30:15] is going on? Is this London? So, um, but you know what? [00:30:20] I had the best five years of my life.

Payman Langroudi: I grew to love whichever area you universally loved. It’s actually [00:30:25] a very unique area. It’s actually a very unique.

Moj Dehghanpour: And another thing is, it’s not only [00:30:30] did I love the area, it’s obviously it’s changed my palette because I could not. And [00:30:35] my dad’s the same. Now you know how Iranians are. Food is not spicy, right? So I cannot tolerate any spice whatsoever. [00:30:40] Probably a spicy chicken burger. I couldn’t even handle. But now I, [00:30:45] you know, I’ve got Bangladeshi friends and, you know, there’s like, their spice point is [00:30:50] tolerance is very high. And, you know, I can handle spice as, as, as much as them. So it [00:30:55] completely changes things and absolutely, absolutely loved it. And I’m so glad I went.

Payman Langroudi: You know, my my my buddy went to [00:31:00] Queen Mary’s as well. But in any university that you’ve been in. I went back to [00:31:05] Cardiff to see some of my friends, and when you look around, it’s a tiny little triangle [00:31:10] that we used to hang out in. At the time, it felt like the whole world was was in that triangle. [00:31:15] But my my buddy said to me, he said when he walks around Whitechapel, he feels like, you know, he’s [00:31:20] he’s been like over the moon. When he passed an exam. He’s been [00:31:25] down in the dumps when he’s failed an exam. He’s been in love on those roads. You [00:31:30] know, he’s been.

Moj Dehghanpour: Brings back the memories.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. He’s been scared as hell trying, you know, doing a new procedure [00:31:35] and all the different things that happen during a five year degree. Yeah. [00:31:40] And and you think of those emotions that are going through you because [00:31:45] you don’t know whether you’re going to even make it as a dentist. You don’t know. You might fail twice or whatever it be. Exactly. [00:31:50] Right. Yeah. So you look back at that with fondness.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah, I mean, I yeah, [00:31:55] I.

Payman Langroudi: Look good or not. Uh, you pick it up easily.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah, you asked me to. I think earlier [00:32:00] you were saying about, you know, was I. I wasn’t a great student up until, uh, and to be honest, [00:32:05] in A-levels, I didn’t really get the grades either. So, um, I wouldn’t particularly [00:32:10] say I was an amazing student.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I’m not talking great. Did you like it? Did you like it?

Moj Dehghanpour: Like I loved [00:32:15] it.

Payman Langroudi: You were treating patients. Were you, like, into it?

Moj Dehghanpour: Yes, I really liked it. And I still do. You [00:32:20] know, I if I hand on my heart. I’m not just saying this. If I were to go back in time, I [00:32:25] would still pick dentistry over anything else.

Payman Langroudi: Nice.

Moj Dehghanpour: Uh, even though since [00:32:30] doing dentistry, my eyes have opened to other avenues. And, you know, we, [00:32:35] I think as dentists, we sometimes, or all dentists don’t realise that the world’s a lot bigger place than [00:32:40] just dentistry. Um, you know, and, um, but, but but still, [00:32:45] I would go back and do dentistry because I think really and truly, that’s, that is where [00:32:50] my strengths lie. Um, and, um, uh, [00:32:55] yeah. I mean, as a student, I was okay. Um, I wasn’t I wasn’t [00:33:00] the top of the year, but I wasn’t, you know, I was doing alright. I did quite well at university. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:33:05] that’s what you meant as well.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah. So some con. Yeah. Shout outs to some is [00:33:10] uh, is obviously, you know, a good friend of mine now, uh, but at that time he was actually my oral surgery [00:33:15] tutor, and he was a force to be reckoned with. He still, you know, he still is. And, you know, [00:33:20] you wouldn’t want to get on the wrong side of him, but honestly, he’s got a heart of gold, and I’ve got a lot of respect [00:33:25] for him. And he was he was actually one of my, in fact, probably one of my, my [00:33:30] very first Dental mentor, certainly with implants anyway. Um, [00:33:35] and I actually I’ve got a, I’ve got a WhatsApp group with him and, uh, another friend [00:33:40] of mine, Victor Ghani, and. Yeah, yeah, it’s another great guy and I [00:33:45] call it the, the groups called implant uncles, you know, because I call it my implant uncles.

Payman Langroudi: So was it quite [00:33:50] early on that you got exposed to implants? Was it in university you got exposed?

Moj Dehghanpour: No, not not No. University. [00:33:55] Um. It wasn’t it really wasn’t all. Back then, you know. You know, I qualified. 2007. [00:34:00] Yeah. So I’m in my 18th year now as a dentist. Um, so, but [00:34:05] I, I ended up in, in Norfolk, um, for my [00:34:10] PhD, uh, or as it was called back then, um, and, [00:34:15] um, you know, little market town called Dereham. Uh, East Dereham, um, [00:34:20] I think a population of around ten, 15,000 or something. Literally. Um, [00:34:25] busy NHS practice, you know, patients crawling through the windows. [00:34:30] You know, I remember one day, I think as a, as a vet or PhD, I [00:34:35] saw 44 patients in one day. Right. It was crazy. Um, [00:34:40] high demand, high treatment needs, etc.. But that gave me really good experience, right? Um, end [00:34:45] of my, uh, PhD year, I was I was really lucky, [00:34:50] I guess. And I got on well with my trainer And, um, he offered me partnership [00:34:55] into the practice, which I thought, wow. You know, I was like 23, 24, you know, years old. [00:35:00] All of a sudden, it’s sort of owning your own, well, at least a share of a business, right?

Payman Langroudi: And [00:35:05] so why do you think why do you think he did that? Did he recognise that you were kind of a force [00:35:10] to be reckoned with? Like, sometimes, you know, you get a young guy and you think if you’re [00:35:15] an older guy, you think I’ve got experience, he’s got energy. And together we can make something because [00:35:20] it seems like.

Moj Dehghanpour: I think there was a bit of that. I think there was a bit of that. Um, I [00:35:25] think, um, his I don’t necessarily [00:35:30] think his passion was in clinical dentistry as such. If I think [00:35:35] he’d probably say the same, I think, um, but he was another. So [00:35:40] adding on to the guys or girls who helped me along my communication journey. [00:35:45] So I’ve mentioned my dad. Another guy was a dentist called Majid [00:35:50] Tehrani.

Payman Langroudi: Who’s this guy?

Moj Dehghanpour: Who’s my feet? Trainer. Uh. And, [00:35:55] uh. So what did he.

Payman Langroudi: What did he teach you? What did he teach you about communication?

Moj Dehghanpour: So basically, [00:36:00] I mean, this is a type of dentist who, by his own admission, he wasn’t necessarily clinically the best dentist [00:36:05] in the world. Okay. He would keep patients waiting an hour. Not [00:36:10] intentionally, obviously, but he would run late all the time. He loved to talk. He loved to [00:36:15] laugh. You would constantly hear laughter from his surgery. And he had the front surgery. [00:36:20] And I was all the way down at the other end. You know, I was sort of, you know, bottom of the food chain, right, [00:36:25] of the PhD. Got the smallest room with no windows. Um, but [00:36:30] I could always hear Majid and his patients, like, absolutely cracking up right from [00:36:35] the other end. And I’m like. And I look in his diary on exact. I remember he said, look, it’s got like, [00:36:40] three patients waiting. What’s he doing? They all going to get pissed off, right? And you know, I would run [00:36:45] for five minutes. And he said, oh, you know, patients I’d get a little message come through on instant messaging. How much? How long are you [00:36:50] going to be? You know, it’s like, you know. But somehow he never got a complaint. [00:36:55] Ever.

Payman Langroudi: Patients would sit there.

Moj Dehghanpour: Absolutely loved him. Right. And, [00:37:00] um, he just had a way with with [00:37:05] patients and to keep them happy. And, you know, and, um, so I learned that very quickly [00:37:10] that actually clearly. And he’s, you know, he’s got a very loyal following. His patients [00:37:15] would only want to see him. Obviously, he’s been there for a while. So that that helps you naturally sort of, you know, [00:37:20] filter out patients and you sort of end up, you know, always that saying, you know, you end up with a list you deserve [00:37:25] or patients you deserve. And some of that is that basically over time, the ones who don’t like you or don’t [00:37:30] get on with your personality are filtered out.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting thing, what you’re saying here about the laughter. Yeah, because [00:37:35] I must have visited a thousand more dental practices. And there [00:37:40] are certain cues in a dental practice that make you think, oh, that’s interesting. Or [00:37:45] or the opposite, of course. Yeah, that’s not interesting. And for me, [00:37:50] the way you get the receptionist greets you. Yeah, yeah. You know, the first [00:37:55] time. The first. Of course. The first time you look around and see, you know, the cobwebs [00:38:00] on the ceiling. And yeah, that the people in the practice don’t see anymore. Yeah. Mhm. Um, but [00:38:05] then laughter. Laughter it’s such an interesting point. When I, if I go into a practice [00:38:10] and I hear laughter, whether it’s the team or much better still patients [00:38:15] and it’s a bloody good sign man. It’s a bloody good sign.

Moj Dehghanpour: I agree, I agree, I agree. [00:38:20] Um, and, and you know, sometimes I think [00:38:25] um, because I’m a bit loud as well, you know, and even with my patients and [00:38:30] stuff like that, you know, I sort of laugh and joke and sometimes, um, you know, um, you know, even [00:38:35] the guys, you know, I’ve got associates now I work with or perhaps when, when I had, when I was a [00:38:40] PhD trainer, you know, people were sort of a bit shocked as to sort of the [00:38:45] type of things, I’d say, or how I’d be around patients. Right. Um, but [00:38:50] I think I love that I picked up from, from from from him. Um, and it was, [00:38:55] you know, ultimately the people, you know, it’s yes, we are professional and yes, we’re here to provide a [00:39:00] service and yes, we are healthcare, but ultimately you’re dealing with another human being, right? Um, [00:39:05] and if you can take away all of that and just relate on a [00:39:10] human to human level, you, you build a much more stronger bond and [00:39:15] genuine relationship. And which is actually then, um, you know, [00:39:20] I’ve got patients now who have followed [00:39:25] me from other practices miles away, right miles away. And I didn’t even [00:39:30] there weren’t even long standing patients. I’d only seen him a handful of times, you know, but clearly something [00:39:35] happened within a very limited number of appointments. Right. That relationship was built. Now, clearly [00:39:40] I didn’t do it for everyone, but something happened.

Payman Langroudi: It comes naturally to you because of the way you you [00:39:45] were brought up, let’s say. But, you know, it’s weird how some people feel [00:39:50] like you’ve got to assert your authority as the dentist and to have a boundary [00:39:55] between you and the patient. And that totally for me, is such a massive error. I agree. [00:40:00] But then also the second thing, young dentists get this wrong all the time. Yeah, I don’t know about you, [00:40:05] but for me, when I talk to a bunch of different professionals all the way from SEO [00:40:10] specialist, all the way to corporate lawyer to some surgeon [00:40:15] who’s going to do something on my dad, let’s say one of the things that I trust the [00:40:20] most, one of the things that I respect the most, is when a professional says, I don’t know. Yeah, yeah, [00:40:25] but when you’re young, you think you can’t say that. You’ve got to have all the answers [00:40:30] and you’ve got to have all the answers there and then. Yeah, yeah. And that’s one thing where I, we know when you get the inkling that the [00:40:35] guy doesn’t know, but he’s saying that. Yeah that’s worse. March 1st hundred times worse.

Moj Dehghanpour: 100.

Payman Langroudi: Times worse 100 [00:40:40] times worse. I really respect it, and some of the top people I work with often say, I don’t [00:40:45] know. Yeah. And so the combination of what you said, the human connection. Yeah. And then [00:40:50] little things like this, you know, like of being authentic. Yeah. Is the [00:40:55] reason why some people follow you from practice to practice, you know.

Moj Dehghanpour: But also I think, you know, look, it’s, [00:41:00] um, I think, um, a lot of this also comes with experience.

Payman Langroudi: Of [00:41:05] course.

Moj Dehghanpour: Um, how I am with patient, you know, I can go in and say the same [00:41:10] thing, you know, sometimes, you know, let’s say, uh, again, whether it’s the practice [00:41:15] now or in the past or PhDs, whatever, you know, they would they would come to me so [00:41:20] much. Can you just come in and sort of explain this to the patient or whatever, or give a second opinion kind of thing? I would go in [00:41:25] and maybe say exactly the same thing, but it’s how I’ve delivered it, with what [00:41:30] confidence? I’ve said it, you know, things like what you’ve alluded to, you know, just say if it’s not clear [00:41:35] or if we don’t know the answer to it, just say we don’t know. Simple as that. But I think I think. I think you’re [00:41:40] right. I think some of the, uh, more newly qualified dentists, [00:41:45] um, they feel like they, they. Because now they’ve got the BDS, [00:41:50] they’ve now like, you know, they must be seen as this oracle of wisdom when it comes to dentistry. [00:41:55] And actually, the reality is, you know, I only started learning about dentistry after I qualified.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, I think [00:42:00] 6 or 7 years.

Moj Dehghanpour: In all honesty, the game changer for me, where I think where [00:42:05] I can handle my heart, say, you know what? I felt like [00:42:10] a proper dentist where I knew what I was sort of talking about was actually after [00:42:15] I finished my MSC, which was in 20 1516, which is what.

Payman Langroudi: Nine.

Moj Dehghanpour: Nine years [00:42:20] post qualification? Yeah. Yeah. And I’ve done other I’d done other stuff before that, you know, courses [00:42:25] and qualifications and stuff like that, you know. So I think it was only then and [00:42:30] since then it sort of changed again, you know, sort of another nine years later. So that was halfway point. You know, I’m 18 [00:42:35] years in now.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re still probably learning every day. Right. Because you’re digital right now, you’re having to [00:42:40] relearn everything 100% for digital, 100%.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah. For sure.

Payman Langroudi: So what happened with the practice in [00:42:45] Norfolk? So you partnered.

Moj Dehghanpour: There? Yeah. So partnership there. Basically we were there, [00:42:50] um, up until I was there full time. Um, you [00:42:55] know, because I was very much a city. London boy.

Payman Langroudi: Weren’t you worried? If [00:43:00] it was me, I would have been worried that I’m now laying down roots in Norfolk, whereas [00:43:05] I want I.

Moj Dehghanpour: Was worried, I was worried, and in all honesty, if you were to ask me, you know, if [00:43:10] you were to go back, would you change anything or do you have any regrets, anything [00:43:15] like that? I would possibly say that me [00:43:20] buying into that practice was a double edged sword. Yes. It [00:43:25] gave me a certain advantages. Yeah. Um, some of which, for example, [00:43:30] it gave me, uh, freedom of being able to go off and do whatever courses I wanted [00:43:35] to do because I didn’t have to worry about telling my principal, I need this amount of time off. I just took the time off. And when I did, [00:43:40] and I did loads of courses very, very early on, I jumped into implants. A year or [00:43:45] two after qualifications, I jumped into facial aesthetics. I jumped all that stuff very [00:43:50] early. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Were you always that surgeon type? Um. You [00:43:55] like blood?

Moj Dehghanpour: Not, I never was. I was never put off by blood. Um.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:44:00] seems a bit early to jump into it.

Moj Dehghanpour: But the thing is, bear in mind, I was working in Norfolk, right? I was working in Norfolk. [00:44:05] Uh, you know, you’ve got with that sort of, uh, the sort of the the common [00:44:10] stereotypes about Norfolk. You you, you know, loads of my patients [00:44:15] were very sort of average people. Some of them were [00:44:20] farmers. Oral health wasn’t, wasn’t necessarily top of their priority list, [00:44:25] let’s just say. And so spending money it will be on the NHS to, to sort of [00:44:30] keep teeth wasn’t again high on the list. Right. So. So [00:44:35] as a result and my trainer was possibly because of the environment, [00:44:40] he sort of was the same. You know, it was the same as well. So we did loads [00:44:45] of extractions. You know, I’d say I’ll never forget I told a patient once, I think I [00:44:50] did like an occlusal cavity or something. And I said, yeah, tooth needs a filling. And he’s like, oh no, I’m not going to pay. [00:44:55] I don’t know whatever at the time, whatever.

Payman Langroudi: £32.

Moj Dehghanpour: £30 or whatever to fill the tooth and then five [00:45:00] years later have to have root canal or a crown or extraction or whatever. And I was like, no, you could [00:45:05] have a filling. And then that could be it. For 20 years, I don’t know. No, no, no, no. Just take it out. [00:45:10]

Payman Langroudi: Oh my God.

Moj Dehghanpour: And I’m like, it just needs a little occlusal. I’m not. And I remember I’ll never forget. [00:45:15] And this is going back to what you’re saying about being having the confidence [00:45:20] of, uh, saying to someone I don’t know or, or equally importantly, [00:45:25] saying, no.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not going to do that.

Moj Dehghanpour: I’m not going to do it. I’m not going to break [00:45:30] my professional sort.

Payman Langroudi: Of Yeah.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah yeah. Boundaries. And you know what my opinion is? So I said [00:45:35] to the guy, you know what? And I’ve done this even recently as well with another patient. I said [00:45:40] I’ll temporarily fill the tooth for you for free. Don’t even pay me. It’s fine. [00:45:45] Okay. But I’m not going to take your tooth out. And then he was like, well, why don’t you just take it out? It’s fine. I’m not [00:45:50] going to. He was always like, listen, I’m not going to complain. I’m not going to sue you. I said, it’s not about that. I don’t think it’s [00:45:55] the right thing to do. So I’m not going to do it. You can find another dentist who’s going to do it for you if you want. So I remember I put a [00:46:00] bit of caveat or something like that in the tooth, and I said, see you later. Um, and [00:46:05] um, you know, that’s very, very important, right? You know, in terms [00:46:10] of, um, being having the strength and conviction to say no to someone as well, um. [00:46:15]

Payman Langroudi: I would have permanently filled it for free because he would have then gone [00:46:20] and shouted about you.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, you’re right, you’re right. Yeah, yeah, but I was, you know, I was.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:46:25] I get it, I get it.

Moj Dehghanpour: I get it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just.

Moj Dehghanpour: So then NHS man, I had about five patients waiting.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:46:30] did you exit that situation?

Moj Dehghanpour: So anyway, we practice [00:46:35] in Norfolk. What happened was, um, I’d done my MSC Restorative [00:46:40] at Eastman. Um, and I wanted to do more and more private work. I wanted [00:46:45] to do. And I had this constant dilemma and battle, internal battle. [00:46:50] Every single patient that sat in front of me, the type of dentistry I want to do, the [00:46:55] type of dentistry I’m almost forced to deliver because of time, because of [00:47:00] materials, because of X, Y and z and money and all the rest of it, you know? So, um, [00:47:05] and hats off to anyone who can make the system work for them. I couldn’t. [00:47:10] Right. And so it’s something had to give. And what had to give was I had [00:47:15] to get out of the NHS. And so what I did was, um, I moved back down [00:47:20] to London part time. I was still doing a couple, two, three days. And so by the way, I was there [00:47:25] for a good eight years. I only ever stayed in eight years. One weekend [00:47:30] up there Fridays. No disrespect to Norfolk. Norfolk. Life. Um, [00:47:35] Friday afternoons. Come down to London, socialise, see [00:47:40] friends, family, blah blah blah. Sunday evenings go drive back. And I did that for eight years. Every single [00:47:45] weekend, bar one weekend I remember I think I’d like something, maybe like something to do with my MSC or [00:47:50] something. And um, I remember it clearly because it was a Wimbledon final as well. And I thought, you know what, let me just [00:47:55] stay there and do a bit of work and I’ll watch Wimbledon in peace and that’s it.

Moj Dehghanpour: Um, uh, came back [00:48:00] down to London. I did part time, um, in practice, very close to here. [00:48:05] Um, didn’t like it. It was a mixed practice. Hated it there as well. [00:48:10] And I was like, look, I need to go fully private. You know, I’ve skilled myself, [00:48:15] I’ve invested, I’ve spent tens of thousands on this course, you know, over the last few years and [00:48:20] other courses. And so I need to, you know, I need [00:48:25] to get a job that allows me to happen. And I was looking at buying other practices and, you know, etc. and looking for associate [00:48:30] jobs, maybe. And as it happened, one of my friends who was living out in [00:48:35] Qatar said, oh, why don’t you come out here, you know, sun, sea, sand, tax [00:48:40] free, you know, all that stuff. He’s not a dentist, by the way. Well, um, and [00:48:45] you know what? And I’ve, I’ve got this sort of slightly sort of risk taker, [00:48:50] gambler type personality as well. I do take risks. And I have done throughout my [00:48:55] life I thought, you know what? Why not let me just go for it? You know, I’m looking at selling the practice anyway, [00:49:00] so moved out to went through the whole sort of process of [00:49:05] actually getting gained the qualification, doing exams, blah, blah, blah to be able to register there. And it was a, [00:49:10] you know, it was, it was a bit of.

Payman Langroudi: A sold.

Moj Dehghanpour: Not quite at that point. So this [00:49:15] is January anyway, I started the process of 2014, January 2015 [00:49:20] I moved out to Doha. Um, I sold the practice actually, 2016, [00:49:25] uh, to friends of mine, Jin and Kish, a small clinic [00:49:30] group. Uh, so I sold to them.

Payman Langroudi: So you met them first on the mosque?

Moj Dehghanpour: On my mosque? [00:49:35] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And also you.

Moj Dehghanpour: Sold. Yeah. So we were friends at this point. We. I started doing the mosque in 2012. [00:49:40] So five years after qualifying. Um, um, so [00:49:45] they bought the practice, and, um, that was it. You know, in Doha, I was doing [00:49:50] sort of fully private dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: What happened to the partner in North Norfolk?

Moj Dehghanpour: We all sold together. [00:49:55]

Payman Langroudi: What happened to him?

Moj Dehghanpour: Uh, he stayed on.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, he.

Moj Dehghanpour: And his wife, actually. Yeah. And [00:50:00] then another partner as well. We all sold and.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Moj Dehghanpour: Sort of did their own thing.

Payman Langroudi: You get to Doha. The [00:50:05] exams were very difficult because there’s a bunch of people looking to move nowadays.

Moj Dehghanpour: Oh, man. I’ve got [00:50:10] I’ve got friends who’ve moved over the last year. Yeah. To Doha specifically. Um, [00:50:15] the exam I. To be honest, [00:50:20] I didn’t really revise for it. It was multiple choice at the time. I don’t know if it’s changed. I think it’s the same. [00:50:25] Still, uh, it’s all done in a sort of centre in London somewhere. And, [00:50:30] um, there were there were aspects to it because it’s sort of a, it’s very much like an American [00:50:35] Canadian type questions. You know, there were certain questions that I had absolutely no idea about. Even the terminology [00:50:40] was a slightly different. So but I sort of made educated guesses. And I passed first time, [00:50:45] you know, maybe I was lucky. I don’t know if I would be able to pass every single time. It wasn’t easy, but [00:50:50] it some of it was sort of.

Payman Langroudi: The one multiple choice paper.

Moj Dehghanpour: One, it was three hours, [00:50:55] I think one multiple choice from um, from memory. And then after that once, um, and then you had to do loads of stuff [00:51:00] to attest your paperwork and get your, uh, BDS transcripts [00:51:05] from the university and then take it to the embassy and get police checks and, you know, all that. [00:51:10] There’s sort of a few steps, uh, it took it took about six months to do. Um, [00:51:15] so January 2015, I moved there and I was there for about 20 months in. [00:51:20] It was actually the British Dental centre there.

Payman Langroudi: As.

Moj Dehghanpour: Owned by a owned by an English [00:51:25] lady who’d gone there 20 years ago.

Payman Langroudi: As an associate.

Moj Dehghanpour: As an associate. So I went as from [00:51:30] a partner to I mean, I was I did a bit of associateship in London as well for about.

Payman Langroudi: Was the [00:51:35] job in hand? Have you got the job before?

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah. So what in the process of. So how it works [00:51:40] is that in order to get your visa.

Payman Langroudi: You need a.

Moj Dehghanpour: Job. You need a job, you need a job offer.

Payman Langroudi: Aha.

Moj Dehghanpour: So [00:51:45] whilst I went to visit my friend, the very first time I was, I was there for a week [00:51:50] prior, maybe, I think a few days or a week before going. I googled all the practices in [00:51:55] Doha, send them all in a generic email with my CV and I think a portfolio. Um, [00:52:00] and I said, hey guys, you know, I’m going to be in town next week. Um, [00:52:05] if you’re looking for an associate from, from the UK, you know, British qualified, [00:52:10] um, you know, um, let’s sort of talk [00:52:15] um, and I got, I can’t remember how many emails I send, maybe 3040 emails to various [00:52:20] practices. And I’ve got, I think like three responses and all three of them gave me a job offer once they met me. Um, [00:52:25] and I ended up working in the practice I thought was the best one.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:52:30] how would you characterise it? Practising in Doha?

Moj Dehghanpour: Very different. Very different. [00:52:35] Um, it almost all virtually all insurance based for, [00:52:40] for for starters. And it’s a bit of a funny system because you sort of you’re, [00:52:45] you’re not paid on production as they call it. It’s very much Americanised. You know, [00:52:50] you’re paid on collection. So when the insurance company pays you get paid. Yeah. And that can take [00:52:55] sometimes six months. So you could do a crown now and get paid six months later for it, you know.

Payman Langroudi: And the price [00:53:00] is set by the insurance company.

Moj Dehghanpour: Prices. No, there were limitations. Obviously everyone’s got, you know, an allowance [00:53:05] but generally are quite generous a lot of the time. But you know and it does that [00:53:10] system does have advantages because you know patients then don’t for basic stuff are not they don’t [00:53:15] necessarily think twice about it if they need a filling. Okay, go and have it. If my insurance covers it, let’s get it done.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:53:20] mainly expats.

Moj Dehghanpour: 99% expats, I’d [00:53:25] say. Yeah, well, certainly over 90% expats. Um, we did have some Qataris as well, [00:53:30] some really high. It was a high profile clinic. So if, you know, I treated [00:53:35] some very high profile like royal family level, very close to the king [00:53:40] or the emir. Um, and, you know, it was good. I enjoyed. [00:53:45]

Payman Langroudi: Life in Qatar, like as a young man.

Moj Dehghanpour: It was a bit dull. It was a bit dull and, [00:53:50] and and you know, it was nice for the first six months, uh, in all honesty. And it was all very luxurious and everything [00:53:55] was like valet parking. And, you know, if anyone who’s been to Dubai and sort of places like this, sort of it’s [00:54:00] that similar kind of although Doha is much more quiet. Um, you know, first [00:54:05] time I wanted to I’ve been Dubai a lot. Um, the very first time I went to Dubai was [00:54:10] 1999. Doha sort of reminds me of [00:54:15] Dubai of the 90s, you know? I mean, because of the World Cup, obviously they built [00:54:20] and I did go back for the World Cup as well.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Moj Dehghanpour: Um, because I had tickets [00:54:25] to Iran, England in the World Cup. Did you. Yeah. And um, so I went back and it was interesting. [00:54:30] You know, they’ve, you know, they’ve built loads of fancy really nice places, [00:54:35] shopping malls and restaurants and everything’s there. There’s just not enough people there, you [00:54:40] know. So you would go into a shopping mall and walk shop after shop after shop, and it would [00:54:45] just be a ghost town. It would just be these sort of. I felt so sorry for them. It’s just like people just standing there, the [00:54:50] workers and just waiting for almost begging you to come in just so they can talk to you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah. You [00:54:55] know. Um, so it’s a it was a little bit, but it was really nice. And, you know, quality of life [00:55:00] was good, and, you know, it was it was easy and, you know, and um, um, [00:55:05] I did enjoy it. It was a good experience. I probably [00:55:10] wouldn’t go back myself. But I do know that I’ve got friends of mine, close friends of mine who’ve gone recently. [00:55:15] Uh, in fact, a couple of them have work in the same practice I did. Um, and [00:55:20] I know a few other people.

Payman Langroudi: Free.

Moj Dehghanpour: Tax free. They sort of, um, I’ve had people sort of, you know, [00:55:25] contact me on Facebook and stuff like that, and I’ve spoken to quite a few people over the years because I was probably, you [00:55:30] know, 2015 there wasn’t Qatar was not talked about.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Moj Dehghanpour: Nowadays [00:55:35] I think a lot more people talk about it. Um, so, um, I think over the years I’ve spoken to quite [00:55:40] a lot of people, sort of telling them how I did it, etc.. Um, but, you know, at the time [00:55:45] it was I guess it was a bit of a ballsy move to, to all of a sudden go from practice ownership [00:55:50] to, oh, I’ll be an associate in a foreign country. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but listen, [00:55:55] it was a very nice clinic. Very nice clinic. I mean, I had panoramic views of the of the [00:56:00] Gulf.

Payman Langroudi: Why did you leave? Like, what was the main driver?

Moj Dehghanpour: Um, like I said, I just [00:56:05] wanted to get out of the NHS.

Payman Langroudi: Why did you leave Qatar?

Moj Dehghanpour: Why did I? I just found it a bit [00:56:10] for multiple reasons. A it was. I just found it a bit dull and boring. I really, you [00:56:15] know, I’m quite a sociable person. I was homesick. I remember I came [00:56:20] back, um, I had a because obviously, uh, I had a meeting, I think, with my accountant [00:56:25] or something here, and he said, you know, you do realise you can’t really spend much more time here [00:56:30] because then because of the tax implications. And I realised I was very close to spending [00:56:35] 90 days here. And I was like, hold on, if I’m spending so much time here, what am I doing? You know [00:56:40] what’s something’s not quite right. And I remember every opportunity. I would just come back here. I wouldn’t even go on holidays [00:56:45] sometimes, you know. And, um, you know, if I were to go [00:56:50] back now, maybe with kids and stuff, it might be different.

Payman Langroudi: Um, were you single at the time?

Moj Dehghanpour: No, I was I was married, but [00:56:55] no kids, no kids. And my wife was bored, and she’s a pharmacist, and, you know, she she [00:57:00] was just, you know, I mean, we lived in a service department is almost like a five star [00:57:05] hotel, right? She didn’t even have to sort of clean up. Nothing. Nothing. Right? Her, her, [00:57:10] you know, one bit of excitement would like, you know, go down to the luxurious shopping mall [00:57:15] to buy some milk or something, you know, and it was literally connected to where we lived. Yeah, yeah. [00:57:20] Take the lift. Go down. It was connected straight into the mall. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s funny. I’ve been there many [00:57:25] times. I’ve landed there many times, but I’ve never been out. Oh, right. Oh.

Moj Dehghanpour: It’s nice. Listen, it.

Payman Langroudi: Looks [00:57:30] beautiful from from.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah. It’s. The Corniche is beautiful. I mean, the skyline is [00:57:35] stunning. Um, and it is nice and people are nice, and, you know, quality [00:57:40] of life is amazing. There’s just not much going on. Okay. At least for me, [00:57:45] at that time, it just wasn’t happening. Okay. Um, and I went back in for the World Cup, [00:57:50] and I found I. I felt the same thing. It was like, loads of places, but it wasn’t. It wasn’t, you know, no [00:57:55] vibe. There’s no vibe. Um, and so, anyway, I it [00:58:00] was weird because I was back in the UK and the other reason I came back and this is answering your [00:58:05] question, was For? I missed the Dental circuit, right. [00:58:10] And in fact, it was interesting because one of the guys was probably, in fact, probably the closest [00:58:15] friend I had whilst I was out there was a guy who used to work in central [00:58:20] London, had a very successful practice in the West End, um, and he [00:58:25] had moved out there a few years before. And, um, we met on a [00:58:30] course out there and he sat next to me, and then we started talking and he was, oh, you’re from you’re from London, you know, and he was [00:58:35] from like, you know, um, from the West End. And we started talking and he had some eastern connections, and I’d [00:58:40] just done this MSC and, and we sort of gelled. He was at [00:58:45] the time, I think, 70, um, he’s probably [00:58:50] my oldest friend at the time. Probably still is. I haven’t spoken to him for a little while.

Moj Dehghanpour: So, des, if you’re if you do [00:58:55] see this, I hope you’re well. And, um, anyway, we got really, you know, really [00:59:00] well because of the density we both missed that, you know, sort of being almost disconnected [00:59:05] from the Dental wall. It was very different out there. Very different. Um, and, [00:59:10] um, so I used to come back for courses and I came back for. It was actually a digital dentistry show or something like [00:59:15] that. And whilst I was back, I was looking for jobs. Um, [00:59:20] and I was looking at moving to Dubai because I’ve got a lot of friends in Dubai. Most of my close friends over the years, they’re all [00:59:25] in finance and law. They’ve moved to Dubai from here. But Dubai wasn’t great, [00:59:30] financially speaking. It was. It’s not as because it’s so saturated. Yeah, right. [00:59:35] Um, so I was looking to come back here, and then I saw this advert [00:59:40] in the jobs section whilst I was here for this course. And [00:59:45] it was, it was a job in Kent. Right. I’d never even been to Kent up to this point. [00:59:50] Um, quite honestly. And, um, so I said, um, let me just check it [00:59:55] out. And the advert seemed really promising, and I checked the practice. I was like, oh, wow, this practice is phenomenal. Right. [01:00:00] It’s, um. So it’s a place called Hospital Lane Dental Implant Clinic out in Kent [01:00:05] was set up by a couple of guys, um, Tony and Richard, Tony [01:00:10] Auger and Richard Ebanks. And, um.

Payman Langroudi: Quite famous clinic.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah, it’s I [01:00:15] would say there’s probably not many clinics. It’s now a Bupa practice.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:00:20]

Moj Dehghanpour: Um, I know you’ve had Mark Allen on here. Yeah. So Mark knows the practice. Well I’ve had [01:00:25] yeah. He’s been to hospital and we’ve had dinner and stuff like that. Is is pretty much [01:00:30] boopas or certainly flagship. Flagship is that and Brian Wallace really we’re sort of up [01:00:35] top of the tree and maybe the Wessex.

Payman Langroudi: So you’ve got a job there.

Moj Dehghanpour: I’ve got a job there. So I went for an [01:00:40] interview. I met with Tony.

Payman Langroudi: Did you know how to do implants by this point.

Moj Dehghanpour: I did, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, okay, I did.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah. [01:00:45] So I started implants. Like I said, uh, 2000 I qualified 2007, did my [01:00:50] 2007, 2008. I probably jumped into implants. I was doing implants by 2009.

Payman Langroudi: What was [01:00:55] your training?

Moj Dehghanpour: Um, so very [01:01:00] Not great initially. So, uh, so people [01:01:05] ask me now, you know, oh, how did you start your implant journey? And I said, listen.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t take advice from me.

Moj Dehghanpour: Don’t [01:01:10] take advice from me, because how I did it is not how you should do it. But what [01:01:15] I did was so 2009, as I said, I was a partner. Um, so I had clinical [01:01:20] freedom. I had had a bit of money to spend as well, you know, luckily at that time and I was spending [01:01:25] on courses, all my money was going on courses. Uh, I remember coming across this, [01:01:30] um, implant company called, um, Osteocare. I think it was [01:01:35] it’s a British company, I think, but some connections to Egypt and [01:01:40] anyway seemed good hands on experience in Egypt. And, you know, I think there’s some [01:01:45] courses now, some I think runs a course as well out there. It’s a lot more better structured and organised. [01:01:50] Um, and uh, it was actually, funnily enough, at the time of the [01:01:55] Icelandic ash clouds, I don’t know if you remember the volcano. Yeah, yeah. So I [01:02:00] booked this course out there because of the whole ash cloud thing. Everyone cancelled. [01:02:05] But the crazy Iranian and the crazy Iraqi delegate oday [01:02:10] again shout out to him. He’s a friend of mine. Uh, we were the only two who were nuts [01:02:15] enough to actually fly through the ash clouds and actually go to Egypt at that time. Everyone else on the course cancelled. So [01:02:20] as it happened, we turned up within, I’d say 45 [01:02:25] minutes of of start course day one. I’d probably [01:02:30] start. I went into surgery place. My first implant patient was already numbed up. The [01:02:35] guy who was doing it, uh, was like, okay, you [01:02:40] do the one on the right because we’re doing lower ball ball attachment, sort [01:02:45] of for for overdentures a day. You do the one on the left, you do on the right. Patients already numbed up. He’s like, okay, [01:02:50] flapless, no CT scan, nothing. It’s just like obg with ball bearings [01:02:55] to calibrate it. Drill.

Payman Langroudi: Back then it was more common.

Moj Dehghanpour: That’s how [01:03:00] it sort of was ish around there. You know, we’re talking basically [01:03:05] 16, 15, 16, 17 years ago. Um, so we did [01:03:10] it. Place ended up placing all the implants for the whole group because they had these patients lined up that [01:03:15] they just pulled off the street. Um, so we placed all the implants as well on top for.

Payman Langroudi: Quite [01:03:20] a lot.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah. We’ve got good hands on experience, you know. I think I can’t remember how many we placed, but we placed more than what we [01:03:25] should have. And um, so anyway, we came back and thought, okay, Mr. [01:03:30] implant ologist. Doctor moj. Um, I had a patient at that point who’d been [01:03:35] a patient since the start of FDA, so I’d been seeing him for a couple of years now at this point, 2 or 3 years. Uh, it was [01:03:40] a really nice guy. He’s actually a solicitor and. But really nice guy. And, [01:03:45] um, he needed some implants. I thought, okay, I can do this now. I’ve been on a course. What could go [01:03:50] wrong? So, um, and this is [01:03:55] probably, if I were to. And [01:04:00] I’m going to almost pre-empt one of you because I have to watch this podcast. And I know you asked this question about one [01:04:05] of your clinical mistakes.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Let’s go.

Moj Dehghanpour: This is probably, uh, I [01:04:10] would say, the biggest clinical disaster [01:04:15] that I encountered.

Payman Langroudi: On a lawyer.

Moj Dehghanpour: On a lawyer.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Moj Dehghanpour: Um, [01:04:20] so I thought this is module of 2009 [01:04:25] ten was a good idea to do a full NHS list. Nine till five. Get [01:04:30] this guy in at 5 p.m.. End of my day, as my very first implant [01:04:35] case ever in practice without a mentor by myself with [01:04:40] my nurse who wasn’t really fully trained, didn’t never seen, didn’t even seen an implant before.

Payman Langroudi: Of course.

Moj Dehghanpour: Not. [01:04:45] So I thought, okay, well, lunchtime, I think we set up the motor and the drill and, you know, I was like, yeah, I’ve got the [01:04:50] implants ready. And and I didn’t really go. I didn’t do things by halves. It didn’t go [01:04:55] easy. Like, you know, like an upper premolar or molar or something like that. Easy case. The anterior [01:05:00] zone. Immediate implant. Immediate. Immediate. Back then [01:05:05] was like, you know, sort of not unheard of. Upper left two, upper [01:05:10] left one and upper right three immediate. Now, anyone who does oral surgery [01:05:15] knows that upper canines sometimes can be bloody hard teeth to remove. You know, you’ve got these solid canines [01:05:20] with long roots. So anyway, I took the upper left. And to [01:05:25] this day and now, you know, in a tight gap with a central and lateral, I wouldn’t even place two implants all the time anyway. [01:05:30] But back then, I had three implants ready. I thought, okay, this guy’s paid for three implants. He’s going to free implants. [01:05:35] That’s how it works. So I took the two out, took the lateral [01:05:40] out, placed my first immediate thought. Oh, this is good. You know, this is happy days. [01:05:45] Then, uh, I went to place an implant next to it in the central position. [01:05:50] And as I’m sort of drilling and an implant going in. I’m like, hold on, there’s something not quite right here. [01:05:55] The sort of the threads of the screws are almost intertwining, right? I was like, okay, this isn’t [01:06:00] right now.

Moj Dehghanpour: So this clearly was you know, it’s horrific. Now I think about it. Right? [01:06:05] And I’m like, man, I’m so lucky to. Nothing happened. But [01:06:10] one thing I’ve always if I were to look back, think I sort of had [01:06:15] this a to a degree without blowing my own trumpet. I tried to [01:06:20] sort of have a strong moral compass when I’m doing treating patients, but [01:06:25] also know when something’s not right and it [01:06:30] just needs to kind of, uh, I need to sort of stop and do something else. Abort. Right. So [01:06:35] it’s like mission abort. I’d unscrew the implant, put it in the bin, and [01:06:40] then just closed up. Then I want to take out the upper right three. Take out the upper right three. As I’m taking [01:06:45] it out. It’s really long routes. And I had this big long six. It’s like 16 or 17 millimetre long implant [01:06:50] which I’d not really touched these days. No need. And I’m putting it in [01:06:55] as I’m putting it in. It was like really thin buckle, bit of bone on this canine. It’s normally quite thin plates [01:07:00] for those who do implants will know. And it was like I could just see the buckle bone. [01:07:05] Just like opening, like the gates of hell. Like an implant. Just like dropping [01:07:10] out of the jaw. Right? So.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re sweating.

Moj Dehghanpour: I’m, like sweating. My nurse [01:07:15] is looking, thinking. Hold on. This isn’t right, you know? So anyway, long story short, the guy came in [01:07:20] with three implants. I threw them that second implant in the bin as well. The guy paid for three. Uh, [01:07:25] well, he thought he was going to pay for three. He walked in, walked out [01:07:30] with one implant, and basically got a refund on the other two. And then I think I made him, like a temporary denture [01:07:35] or something like that the next day. And then I made him some bridges or something, and I fixed him and he was happy. And to the day [01:07:40] I left, everything was fine, but I got away with it. So then after that, [01:07:45] and I think I did 1 or 2 other cases, I thought, okay, this isn’t right. This isn’t going how it used to go in Egypt, right? [01:07:50] There’s all these problems. And then actually, I started.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t know what you don’t know.

Moj Dehghanpour: You don’t know what [01:07:55] you don’t know. Absolutely. It is 100% that right. And so and then that’s [01:08:00] when I got some involved. He was my first implant, basically my mentor after [01:08:05] my PhD trainer. And, um, and I got him involved and he [01:08:10] would come up to Norfolk and, um, you know, do a day with me and I’d have a, you know, 2 or 3 patients lined up, [01:08:15] and then you’d do the cases for me and then go back and, you know, amazing. And and then I did courses [01:08:20] and, you know, and then I did a diploma at the Royal College, you know, etc.. So it’s been a process and built [01:08:25] on it. Right. And then obviously I did the restorative MSC, I had an implant component, you know, etc..

Payman Langroudi: Can [01:08:30] you remember when you felt like I get it with implants and what was like, [01:08:35] what is it? What’s what’s what’s a key? Learning that made you.

Moj Dehghanpour: Think I don’t think I’ve, I [01:08:40] don’t you still.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t feel that. I don’t still feel.

Moj Dehghanpour: That way to be honest. Because you always get caught, you [01:08:45] know, as things go wrong And, you know, not that long ago I was I was placing an [01:08:50] implant and and actually, that was another clinical mistake. And I probably [01:08:55] talked a little bit more than I should have. An implant went into the sinus and then it was a, you know, it was, [01:09:00] it was then it was, oh, God, I’ve got to get the implant out the sinus and then sort of do a, cut a window [01:09:05] and get suctioned implant out and, you know, and again the nurses are looking at me thinking, oh God, [01:09:10] what have you done? You want to go, go, go to lunch. And, you know, okay. The good thing is, and [01:09:15] this is what I will tell anyone who’s getting into implants and to be honest, any dentistry or anything [01:09:20] really you’re bound to you’re obviously going to make mistakes. Things are going to go wrong. [01:09:25] Right? If, if, if they don’t, you’ve not done enough. That is the truth. And anyone who says [01:09:30] otherwise is either not telling the truth or or they’ve not done enough.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah, but [01:09:35] it’s important to know how to manage the problems. And [01:09:40] if you don’t know how to manage, you should ask for help. And always be honest with [01:09:45] the patient. Okay? You have that duty. Let me say duty of candour [01:09:50] or, you know, etc. to be upfront and generally if you’re honest with people, you [01:09:55] know, with that guy I told him, I said, listen, I’m really sorry, but actually I want to place an implant [01:10:00] in your bone and actually end up in your sinus. Okay, I’ve got it out now. Luckily, it was fine and he was fine about it and he healed up. And [01:10:05] actually subsequently, I went and placed the implant and and he’s one of the cases, you know, I’m [01:10:10] really proud of actually, because we did a lot of work with him for over, over one and a half, two year period. [01:10:15] Uh, his full mouth. Um, but, you know, it’s it’s it’s [01:10:20] important to know when to say, okay, something’s not right and not just keep going [01:10:25] and digging that hole for yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but okay. But what’s what’s a misconception that people have about implantology? [01:10:30] Like, for instance, I, I before talking to lots of people about [01:10:35] it, I used to think it’s, it’s about the implant and bone and all that, and then talking to a [01:10:40] lot of people about it, it turns out that prosthetics that the, you know, knowing [01:10:45] what the teeth end up as is as important as the implant, [01:10:50] the bone, for sure. And then there’s the suturing side and the emergence profile side. And there’s [01:10:55] so much to it. Right?

Moj Dehghanpour: There’s so much. I mean, look, the reality is this, like most things in life, it’s [01:11:00] there’s so.

Payman Langroudi: Much.

Moj Dehghanpour: More.

Payman Langroudi: Complicated.

Moj Dehghanpour: More complex, you know, um, my, uh, you [01:11:05] know, I’ve had this chat with my, uh, I’ve got a business partner in the practice at your [01:11:10] dental wellness, and, um, he’s not a dentist. Um, and, uh, I’ve always sort of [01:11:15] spoken to him about how, um, you know, he was from a completely [01:11:20] different line of work. He was in sort of fab and, you know, restaurants and cafes and stuff. [01:11:25] And I was just, oh, man, you guys are so easy. You just make teas and coffees [01:11:30] and whatever. Give them some cupcakes and whatever, you know? And, uh, he was [01:11:35] like, you know, you haven’t got a clue about business much, you know, um, because you don’t understand what goes [01:11:40] into a business. If you’re if you’re going to say that to me and it’s so true, you [01:11:45] know, um, it’s implants. Similarly. Yes. Classically, generally [01:11:50] they use there was this thing of, uh, tissue is the tissue and bone [01:11:55] sets the tone. And it was all very much bone driven implant dentistry and these days is a lot more [01:12:00] aesthetically driven. But the truth of it is it’s a combination of all those things. You know, it’s never one [01:12:05] single aspect, right? It is the bone, it is the tissue, it is the prosthetics, everything. Right. And you’ve [01:12:10] got to in order to be a if, if I were to sort of, uh, make up the perfect implant [01:12:15] dentist, I would say they probably need to have very good periodontal knowledge.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yes. [01:12:20] We obviously competent surgically, but also be a very good, uh, [01:12:25] restorative slash prosthodontist. That is the truth of it. And, you know, I know in the [01:12:30] States they have implant perio prosthetic programs, which are quite long and they’re, [01:12:35] you know, the guys I’ve seen some of the work that some of those guys are phenomenal. Phenomenal because they are then, [01:12:40] um, sort of they can see all those issues and facets at play. Right? [01:12:45] Um, and it was interesting not that long ago. Um, it [01:12:50] was um, at a, um, it was at the Dentinal Tubules conference [01:12:55] Congress, uh, the one that just went, um, there was a speaker there [01:13:00] I met who I probably, I would say. Quite [01:13:05] possibly the best all round dentist I’ve ever seen. [01:13:10] This guy called Guido Fichera. Um, phenomenal. Phenomenal, [01:13:15] right. The guy is just, you know, absolute phenomenal dentist and clinician. And he’s he’s a prosthodontist, [01:13:20] he’s a periodontist and he’s an orthodontist. He’s got all three specialities [01:13:25] under his belt. Right. I clearly must have no life outside of dentistry. Um, but [01:13:30] phenomenal. And but that’s you know, it’s crazy.

Payman Langroudi: You mentioned your partner [01:13:35] in your current business?

Moj Dehghanpour: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Who’s not a dentist? Yeah. Why [01:13:40] did you partner with not a dentist? Or why did you partner? Did you need his money? His skills? [01:13:45] His.

Moj Dehghanpour: Um, okay. So basically, the story with him is that, you know, I’ve [01:13:50] known him for, uh, 20 odd [01:13:55] years, uh, since beginning of uni. Um, so over 20 [01:14:00] years now, probably. I’ve known him and we met socially, you know, um, whilst we were, we [01:14:05] were at uni, and, um, he’s not a dentist. He’s his background. He did a sort [01:14:10] of a marketing sort of degree or something like that. Um, he [01:14:15] never really used it directly, at least. Um, and, um, he, [01:14:20] as I say, he was in sort of food and beverage and sort of that kind of that line of [01:14:25] work and, and anyway, fast forward a number of years and we used to sort of meet up socially [01:14:30] and stuff like that. And um, uh, he, he wanted to [01:14:35] He always used to say how much I would love to sort of get into healthcare and open a. Can we just open a dental [01:14:40] practice together, please? You know, blah, blah, blah. And I’d like a sort of a stable business, you [01:14:45] know. Um, and I was I was always like, yeah, okay. Yeah. But [01:14:50] what do you know about the industry? You know, you know, kind of thing. And then anyway, fast [01:14:55] forward to about 2019, he sort of we had the chat a bit more seriously [01:15:00] a few times. And I was like, you know what? I’ve known him a long time.

Payman Langroudi: Trust him.

Moj Dehghanpour: I trust [01:15:05] him. He’s a nice guy. We get on really well and [01:15:10] he’s quite a yeah, he’s quite an intelligent guy when it comes to business and [01:15:15] stuff. And, um, um, so [01:15:20] I was like, okay, fine, let’s let’s go for it. We found a practice in London that, um, [01:15:25] someone I knew used to work in. Seemed like a really good opportunity. Uh, [01:15:30] we were going to. It was a mixed practice, but a lot of private potential. Uh, we were going to buy. [01:15:35] We didn’t agree on price with the seller. Okay. Um, this was late [01:15:40] 2019. It still fell through. End of story. [01:15:45] Uh, two weeks later, he sort of. I remember we went to. We went out for a coffee [01:15:50] or whatever. We sat down and he was like, okay, I’ve got something else for you. And I said, what is it? [01:15:55] And he said, what do you think about investing in a car wash? I was just like, [01:16:00] hold on. Literally 2 or 3 weeks before this, we were about to spend, [01:16:05] I don’t know, it was like 2 or £3 million buying this big practice right together. [01:16:10] And then now you’re telling me this? And he was like, no, no, just hear me out. So anyway, [01:16:15] we spoke, um, initially I was just sort of laughed and, um, and then when he, as he [01:16:20] spoke and spoke and spoke and we looked at the numbers and I thought, you know what? Uh, [01:16:25] relative to a dental practice is like a, like, insignificant investment. He [01:16:30] was happy to run it, so he didn’t really require that much time. At least [01:16:35] at least what I thought initially anyway. Um, so. And as I said to you, I’m [01:16:40] a bit of a gambler slash risk taker. I thought, you know what? Let me just go for it. Why not? So [01:16:45] I went through sort of the process and 10th [01:16:50] of January 2020, we were the owners of [01:16:55] this car wash business with 4 or 5 car washes across London.

Payman Langroudi: Five car washes. [01:17:00]

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah. So, uh, four, four car washes. Uh, [01:17:05] quite a big operation. One of them’s 24 hours, you know, so it’s quite a big operation. Um, anyway. [01:17:10]

Payman Langroudi: So half of that business.

Moj Dehghanpour: I own half, 50% of this business, and. Yeah. [01:17:15] And, uh, you know, he was running it, and he took, like, a little sort of management sort of [01:17:20] car and, you know, etc. and I thought, you know, I was sort of silent partner that’s that, you know, I’d help [01:17:25] out. And then, um, uh, obviously a couple of months later, [01:17:30] Covid hits.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Moj Dehghanpour: So I was we’re both like, oh my God. We just [01:17:35] put, okay, we’re not going to go bankrupt. But it’s you know, it’s a reasonable amount of money. [01:17:40] We’ve just sunk into this business two months in lockdown, the works. And so then [01:17:45] I think, uh, and we had a lot there was a lot of overheads going out. Right. It’s it’s [01:17:50] quite a big operation.

Payman Langroudi: How many people.

Moj Dehghanpour: There’s about, uh, [01:17:55] I don’t know about at that time, but we probably had about probably I’d say about 70, [01:18:00] 80 people on payroll. Right. Big operation. It’s a big operation. Um, [01:18:05] and there’s a lot of contracts, and, you know, this and that. And [01:18:10] so we had to get one of these cbils loans out, you know, at the time, there were Covid loans to keep us [01:18:15] afloat because there’s the money just coming out and nothing coming in because of the lockdown. Right. And [01:18:20] anyway, once lockdown finally ended, we can open again. Uh, [01:18:25] the other problem we had is like staff, and it’s he’s like, you know, we had all these European staff that come back, [01:18:30] you know, and then they were stuck or they couldn’t come back or didn’t want to come back because they were worried about [01:18:35] Brexit at that point, you know, all this kind of stuff. So um, anyway, so [01:18:40] doctor, doctor moj when Monday to Thursday doing [01:18:45] all on fours and implants and full mouth rehabs in a in a fancy referral [01:18:50] clinic. Hospital lane. Hospital Lane. Yeah. You know to on [01:18:55] when I, when I was at Hospital Lane. So I started in 2016 and I properly left [01:19:00] uh, actually just the last this this last December was my final day there. Um, [01:19:05] I was I only ever did four days when I was working, and [01:19:10] so Fridays was my day off to catch up with life. And I do feel like that’s a good.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:19:15]

Moj Dehghanpour: Good number of clinical days, especially if you’re doing sort of heavy clinical work.

Payman Langroudi: Agreed.

Moj Dehghanpour: Um, and [01:19:20] actually, I think it’s, it’s, um, it’s it’s probably, I’d say more productive than doing five days in [01:19:25] some ways because you sort of feel a bit more fresh and, um, so Friday, Saturday, Sundays, [01:19:30] me and my friend were washing cars, doing mini valets. [01:19:35]

Payman Langroudi: Because you just couldn’t get the teams because.

Moj Dehghanpour: We somehow this operation had to run. Right. So, [01:19:40] you know, I don’t know if I’ve showed you the videos, but I’ve got videos of me and him jet washing cars and washing cars. [01:19:45] And, you know, there’s sort of the customers sort of looking at me and thinking, this guy doesn’t [01:19:50] look like your average carwash bloke, you know? And, um, and, you know, a couple of times, [01:19:55] you know, I would say, oh, you know, you move, move across or whatever, you know, you’re holding up [01:20:00] the queue. And then they would turn around and say, who are you? You know, who are you? Tell me. You know, I’ve been coming to this carwash for ten [01:20:05] years. I’ve never seen you here. And obviously I would never want to say, yeah, but actually the owner. So, [01:20:10] I mean, listen, it was. What are.

Payman Langroudi: Your.

Moj Dehghanpour: What are your.

Payman Langroudi: Reflections [01:20:15] around the carwash business as a business.

Moj Dehghanpour: As a. Well, just generally.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Moj Dehghanpour: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Is [01:20:20] it similar to any other business like is dentistry similar to a car [01:20:25] wash. Of course.

Moj Dehghanpour: Listen, any business has its own stresses and difficulties, [01:20:30] right? Um, so anyone who thinks and this is going back to say anything, [01:20:35] one of the things any business is easy. They’re either stupid or naive.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:20:40]

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah. Um, no. Business is easy. No, successful business is easy. You know, there’s that [01:20:45] there’s that sort of famous e-myth book about entrepreneurs. You know, I think it’s like [01:20:50] one out of, you know, it’s like, what was it like 60% of businesses fail within [01:20:55] the first year. And then, you know, eventually after five years or ten years, there’s only like 10% or 20% survive. [01:21:00] Right. Um, because of that whole sort of entrepreneur slash technician scenario where [01:21:05] people think, oh yeah, I’m a great dentist, I can run my own practice, or I can, I know how to wash cars, I can run a [01:21:10] car wash or whatever. Um, it doesn’t work like that. Every business has got its [01:21:15] own challenges. It’s a very different set of challenges. Yeah. Granted. Um. And [01:21:20] you’re, Um. It’s not easy. It’s very difficult. It’s very challenging. [01:21:25] Different, varying, sort of. You know, we’ve had some weird stuff happen, you know, [01:21:30] with, with, um, you know, in the car washing some funny stories, but it [01:21:35] it’s, um, uh, I enjoyed it. I don’t regret it one [01:21:40] bit. Um, and it’s so different to dentistry. I loved [01:21:45] it, it was it’s like a release, right? Because I could almost, you know, truly be myself. [01:21:50] You know, you can shout, you can swear, you can, you know, and you don’t have to be all sort of maintain [01:21:55] that completely professional sort of front. Um, and um, [01:22:00] and so it almost like was like a release for me. I actually loved it. You know, people say, oh my God, I can’t believe you [01:22:05] were like, you’re standing there getting all like, you know, wet and muddy.

Payman Langroudi: I can understand [01:22:10] how it’s something different, but, you know, owning it is a whole different matter, right?

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah. Owning is different matter. It is. It is different. [01:22:15] Right. Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: So then at what point did you get to actually owning a dental practice with [01:22:20] this guy.

Moj Dehghanpour: So then so then obviously this situation was continuing. I was still at Hospital Lane.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Moj Dehghanpour: Um, [01:22:25] and, and then sort of help out on weekends and whatever. I mean, that was a rough period. It [01:22:30] lasted about a year or so, and then it sort of things started running smoothly. And to be honest with you, he [01:22:35] managed to turn a loss making business and plus Covid [01:22:40] complete and Brexit completely sort of demolishing that sector really, [01:22:45] along with like retail and other leisure places into actually a business that’s, [01:22:50] that’s doing well.

Payman Langroudi: So he’s he’s a smart operator.

Moj Dehghanpour: Smart operator. Um, and he’s [01:22:55] a very interesting guy. You know, he because he’s we always have this [01:23:00] sort of, um, you know, I, I laugh because he again, he came [01:23:05] from very humble backgrounds and, you know, he’s, you know, sort of again, [01:23:10] wasn’t born here, came in the 90s, actually. And, um, he’s [01:23:15] quite heavily dyslexic as well. Right. And, um, and, uh, [01:23:20] but somehow he just when he looks at numbers and patterns and [01:23:25] he can analyse things differently to how I can and most other people. Right. And that’s [01:23:30] where his strength lies and, and obviously, I, I know that now to [01:23:35] be honest, I didn’t necessarily know it at the time we went into partnership.

Payman Langroudi: So is he involved in that side of [01:23:40] the Dental business as well? Yes. So he’s the sort of the the yes. He helps with CFO kind [01:23:45] of.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. He does a lot of that. He helps with a lot of the sort of the, the, [01:23:50] the, the sort of, uh, business aspects and sort of marketing and numbers and stuff [01:23:55] like that. And he’s, you know, he does a lot of stuff that most dentists don’t like [01:24:00] doing. Right? Because we want to be clinical and stay in our surgeries. Right? Yeah. Um. [01:24:05]

Payman Langroudi: So Dental wellness. Yeah. We’ll go on. Do you have something else?

[TRANSITION]: I was just I was just [01:24:10] going to say.

Moj Dehghanpour: So I was going to talk about your dental.

Payman Langroudi: Well, your dental wellness. When I look at it, [01:24:15] I’ve walked past it by mistake once. I was like, oh my goodness. Yeah. [01:24:20] Beautiful. Um, beautiful. Thank you. Beautiful place.

Moj Dehghanpour: I mean, to be honest, [01:24:25] the something I’m really proud of and, you know, people have commented on [01:24:30] it and yeah, you know, we it was a complete shell. It [01:24:35] was an old Bang and Olufsen showroom.

Payman Langroudi: Is that what it was? Yeah. Oh.

Moj Dehghanpour: Complete shell. We had to gut it out completely. [01:24:40] And, um, and I’ve had quite a few people ask me. Oh, yeah? Who was your interior designer? [01:24:45] Who was your architect and whatever. We didn’t actually have one. Um, we it was inspired [01:24:50] by, uh, a video of a spa we saw [01:24:55] in Dubai, um, and also partly Apple Store in [01:25:00] Oxford Street, Regent Street. Um, that’s sort of the colourings and the sort of neutral tones and stuff. [01:25:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I can feel that. Yeah, I can feel that.

Moj Dehghanpour: Um, and that was the vibe we wanted to go to. But equally, we wanted to keep it professional [01:25:10] in the surgeries. It’s sort of quite bright and. Yeah, um, a lot of it was, [01:25:15] was down to my partner. Um, you know, we liaise and, [01:25:20] you know, the good thing is, because I’ve worked in different places and, you know, this isn’t this is, you know, when people look [01:25:25] at something, they think, oh, it’s easy or it’s, you know, it’s happened overnight. It didn’t happen overnight. The [01:25:30] truth is, your Dental wellness didn’t happen overnight. It’s probably a combination of, for him, 20 years [01:25:35] of running business, various businesses, etc. and for me, working in different environments Norfolk, [01:25:40] Kent, Kentish Town and Doha and, you know, places [01:25:45] like that and taking sort of little nuggets.

Payman Langroudi: The process of finding the place [01:25:50] and all that. I, you know, I’m sure you must have looked at loads of different shops and things and then [01:25:55] doing it up, all the normal issues people have with doing places up. Did you have all those, I guess, right. But [01:26:00] then inevitably I’m interested in day one or maybe pre day one [01:26:05] where you start shouting about it. There’s no patience is there? So the process of [01:26:10] getting patients for a squat to the point of, you know, it’s obviously loss making on day one to [01:26:15] the point of profit. Yeah, that must be a real painful journey. It is. Tell [01:26:20] me some of the tactics you use to get patients.

Moj Dehghanpour: I mean, we look, we we knew I [01:26:25] mean, I know there’s practices out there, and I know I’ve spoken to a few people in the past who’ve somehow [01:26:30] managed to open practices with a load of patients, [01:26:35] you know.

Payman Langroudi: Get people to pre-register.

Moj Dehghanpour: Pre-register and stuff like that. And we, we reality is we [01:26:40] did a bit of that and we had like QR codes outside the practice. And, you know, on the shop front when there were people [01:26:45] are working and stuff like that. But and we did open day one with a few patients. [01:26:50]

Payman Langroudi: That you brought from other practices.

Moj Dehghanpour: No, no, no, they just they had registered people registered.

Payman Langroudi: Registered.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah. [01:26:55] Using that QR code or, you know, or the sort of their landing page that was up.

Payman Langroudi: From [01:27:00] day one. Had you already kitted it all out for.

Moj Dehghanpour: So it’s so currently [01:27:05] and actually today the fourth surgery’s gone in literally today I was sort of [01:27:10] there. Um, uh, we started with two. So we started with [01:27:15] dentists and hygienist. Now, when I started it, I never, to be honest with you again, going back [01:27:20] to that sort of technician, operator, entrepreneur, sort of. I never wanted your dental wellness [01:27:25] to be about me. Okay. Uh, as much as I love doing [01:27:30] dentistry, and I very much consider myself still as a dentist. Yeah. Um, I didn’t [01:27:35] want it to be about me, because bear in mind, when we. So when we opened, I was seeing patients Mondays [01:27:40] and Fridays. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursdays. I was actually at Hospital Lane.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Moj Dehghanpour: Okay. For for about a [01:27:45] year. Um, I’m not saying necessarily that’s the best way of doing it, but that’s how [01:27:50] I had to do it for cash flow reasons and all the rest of it. Right. Um, and [01:27:55] now it’s I’m full time. Okay. Because I stopped Hospital Lane pretty much September last [01:28:00] year. Um, and, um, so I still only see patients two days [01:28:05] or one and a half day, and then the other days, I’m sort of helping manage and grow the business. So [01:28:10] working on the business rather than in the business as that. But yeah. Okay. [01:28:15] So and the truth of it is, um.

Payman Langroudi: It’s still very early days. [01:28:20]

Moj Dehghanpour: It’s still early days. We’re open July 2023.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Moj Dehghanpour: The fourth surgery is [01:28:25] gone today. We are opening a second site, uh, in, uh, in London as well. [01:28:30]

Payman Langroudi: So that’s a bit early, isn’t it, to do that?

Moj Dehghanpour: It is, but, um.

Moj Dehghanpour: I [01:28:35] know that area well.

Payman Langroudi: Meadville.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah. Made about, um. And I [01:28:40] think there is a.

Payman Langroudi: The opportunity was too good to miss.

Moj Dehghanpour: That opportunity was too good. Yes. You know, sometimes, you [01:28:45] know, your opportunity presents itself and you just got to. Sometimes you just got to go for it. Right. And and the truth of it is, [01:28:50] look, again, like any other business you start up, no one can say 100%. And, [01:28:55] you know, I know you’ve had guys on here who’ve got many corporates and corporates [01:29:00] and dsos and stuff, who’ve got multiple practices. And for example, I listened to a really [01:29:05] good podcast by Kunal now looks like a tooth club and and I know he’s got a whole team and set up, [01:29:10] but I’m sure even Quinn will tell you. You know, he never really know how a business [01:29:15] or practice is going to go when you set it up right. 100%. No one knows, right? It’s a business, right? There’s an [01:29:20] element of risk. But, you know, you do your homework. Uh, I know the area. Well, I [01:29:25] grew up. I spent 30, 40 years within a short distance of that [01:29:30] area. There’s not that many practices there. Um, so [01:29:35] we’ve done the homework on that on that side. And, um, you know, I think, I think [01:29:40] our branding and, um, the sort of clientele we’re going for, [01:29:45] it fits within the demographic of that area.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what is the positioning? [01:29:50]

Moj Dehghanpour: Uh, so I think we’re we’re quite a, um, I mean, we’ve got [01:29:55] we’ve got quite.

Moj Dehghanpour: A clean, modern looking brand. Um, the name, [01:30:00] to be honest, I came up with myself. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But positioning is in.

Moj Dehghanpour: Terms. [01:30:05]

Payman Langroudi: Of as in what end of the market is it? How far up.

Moj Dehghanpour: Or down we’re [01:30:10] not? I wouldn’t say we’re we’re sort of Uber you know, Uber premium high [01:30:15] end levels of private industry looks pretty good. It it does look premium but but you [01:30:20] know if you’re if you’re trying to and again I know sort of listening to Kunal’s uh [01:30:25] pod you know he mentioned you know you’ve got to you’ve got to you’ve got to hit a bit of a sweet spot [01:30:30] if you want to grow at a reasonable rate. You know, there’s, it’s it’s too risky to [01:30:35] try and aim for that 1% of the Uber wealthy who can afford your fees? Yes. [01:30:40] At Hospital Lane, I was actually charging a lot more than I am now for for for the [01:30:45] work I do. Same work. I actually use the same technician still. Okay. Uh, thanks [01:30:50] to digital just goes across. Right? Except before it was just the guy upstairs. Because [01:30:55] it’s got an on site lab there. Um, so, you know, um, [01:31:00] but but if I were to price myself at that in that bracket. [01:31:05] You know, we’re we’re a practice that’s been open for a year and a half, right. Or just over a year and a [01:31:10] half. Can’t compete with practice being in Kent without a practice in that local vicinity [01:31:15] for 20, 30 years. Right. So and London’s obviously we know it’s very competitive [01:31:20] and, you know, saturated. Right. You know in in Islington where we open within [01:31:25] a 15 minute walk radius, there’s eight practices right. Including [01:31:30] a huge, for example, Dental beauty, 16 surgeries. I think it’s like one of the probably the biggest one, the [01:31:35] big one. Yeah they’re massive. They’re big one. Right. And and about 6 or 7 practices on the [01:31:40] same road. We’ve got Bupa ones around the corner. We’ve got other sort of squats and.

Payman Langroudi: Positioning is an [01:31:45] interesting thing.

Moj Dehghanpour: It’s a difficult.

Payman Langroudi: One because because, you know, health and beauty aren’t price sensitive [01:31:50] in the same way as commodities are.

Moj Dehghanpour: They’re not. They’re not. But listen. [01:31:55]

Payman Langroudi: I’m not I’m not saying anything about where to position yourself because no no no no no there are different positions [01:32:00] to go in. Yeah yeah, yeah, I get what you’re saying about the. You don’t want to be right at the top of [01:32:05] the thing. Yeah. Um, at the same time, you don’t want to be at the bottom.

Moj Dehghanpour: No you.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t.

Moj Dehghanpour: So we price [01:32:10] ourselves somewhere, I would say, in the somewhere between the middle [01:32:15] and higher end.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So in the Waitrose, Marks and Spencer department. Yeah, yeah. And my [01:32:20] point though on it is, my point on it is, you know, you know as well as I do here that it’s [01:32:25] about trust more than anything. Yeah. No 100% like let’s say I’m a member of [01:32:30] the public. I walk into the practice, I meet you. Yeah, I trust you. Yeah. If your [01:32:35] only is £950 compared to if your only is £650, [01:32:40] I still have to trust you to give you my 650. I’ve got to trust that you can [01:32:45] pull this off. Yeah, yeah. It’s not like. Oh, now I’m thinking, do I trust him to 950 [01:32:50] instead of do I trust him to 650? You know what I mean? It’s it’s not it’s not price [01:32:55] and and volume in the way that people think of, I don’t know, some some piece [01:33:00] of, uh, electronics.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And so deciding where [01:33:05] to pitch yourself. It’s kind of interesting thing because you’ve made it look state of the art. Yeah. [01:33:10] And maybe that’s part of the fun of it, right? Because you look at it, you think, wow, that looks nice, [01:33:15] by the way. Put off a number of people because of because because of how nice it looks. [01:33:20]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And there’s this other group of people who come in expecting to pay loads and loads and might [01:33:25] be quite, you know, surprised by the price. So all I’m asking is, was it on purpose or by mistake? You know, like, [01:33:30] um.

Moj Dehghanpour: Uh, look, the the reality is, if we are starting, uh, [01:33:35] I completely agree. But ultimately the price two [01:33:40] degree does matter.

Payman Langroudi: Of course it does. Of course.

Moj Dehghanpour: It does. So, you know, if I take the same practice, [01:33:45] put it in a different area, which maybe is not as affluent, for example, [01:33:50] I’m not saying Islington is fairly affluent. You know, it’s got a mixed crowd. You know, it’s got some very affluent people.

Payman Langroudi: For instance, [01:33:55] are you going to charge more in Maida Vale than in Islington?

Moj Dehghanpour: The fees will be different.

Payman Langroudi: Oh they.

Moj Dehghanpour: Will. Yeah. You look at [01:34:00] the area and then you price accordingly. Yeah, right. Certain things we might price the same. Certain things will [01:34:05] change. Right. I think our fees are reasonable for the area we’re in where we are in Islington. [01:34:10] And there will probably be reasonable for the area in Maida Vale. But it will probably be [01:34:15] higher than what they are in Islington. Okay. Because the area is different. It costs a lot more and costs. Yeah, exactly. [01:34:20] I think that’s that’s fine. In terms of where we positioned it. So I knew we didn’t [01:34:25] want to be too low because that’s not our brand. It doesn’t. And to be honest with [01:34:30] you, um.

Payman Langroudi: That’s not what you’re good at.

Moj Dehghanpour: Uh, I, you [01:34:35] know, when when I first opened the practice, I sort of met up with all the guys in the practice [01:34:40] that I’d recruited, all the dentists that sort of the day or two before, um, and [01:34:45] son had showed him around, and actually, we went for dinner, and I thought it was a nice way of sort of, [01:34:50] uh, sort of people to meet because they all work on different days and we’ve got a shift system and, you know, etc.. So we’ve got [01:34:55] quite a large team. Um, you know, there’s, there’s, there’s about, I think 17 [01:35:00] or 18, uh, dentists from day one virtually. Right. [01:35:05] I had on a, on a sort of a shift based system, you know, obviously including all the special we’ve got all the specialists in house. [01:35:10]

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Moj Dehghanpour: Um, and, and yeah, some people thought, what’s going on? Whenever I tell people, [01:35:15] you know, at that time we only had two surgeries, but we had like 18 people on our website, but we genuinely it wasn’t [01:35:20] made up. We genuinely had those people working. But it’s just the practices.

Payman Langroudi: One day a month.

Moj Dehghanpour: The practice is open seven days a week. [01:35:25] Yeah, we’re open 8 to 8, Monday till Thursday, extended hours and it’s a [01:35:30] bit of a shift system that’s happening okay. And obviously the specialists are they come as and when sort of we need [01:35:35] we need them. And now as they get busier sort of regular days. So [01:35:40] um, uh, in regards to the, the [01:35:45] sort of the pricing strategy I knew our brand was we’ve got all the specialists in-house. We [01:35:50] are a quality brand. And when when the guys came in, they were like, oh, like, how much? You know, the practice is really [01:35:55] nice. And I said, what do you guys think? You know, because it was like, okay, I’d sort of part owned the [01:36:00] practice before, but this was like my baby. We started from scratch. It was different, right? I was actually a bit nervous [01:36:05] about what do others think?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Moj Dehghanpour: It’s always like it’s normal, right. So [01:36:10] and one, you know, one of the, one of the guys, one of the dentists said to me, he was like, oh, it’s clear [01:36:15] you didn’t cut any corners, right? And I said, you know why? Because I [01:36:20] built this practice for me to work in. It’s a little bit like if you build a house for [01:36:25] yourself versus a buy to let. Yeah, the carpet’s different. The furniture might be from Ikea [01:36:30] versus, I don’t know, whatever John Lewis or something, you know. Uh, and so that’s [01:36:35] that’s what it was. I genuinely did it for me to work in. And I’d worked in an amazing practice in, [01:36:40] in Kent Hospital. And I worked in a really nice practice in, in Doha. And so [01:36:45] I took sort of various aspects from these, you know, you know, it sort of amazes me, for example, to this day [01:36:50] when Patients come in and say, oh, wow, you’ve got TV on the ceiling. It’s like, really? I’ve had a [01:36:55] TV on a ceiling for the last ten years, literally in Doha. Right. I had a TV in the ceiling from then [01:37:00] and in Kent. It’s like, I don’t I don’t think that’s new, but but [01:37:05] but I’m surprised that it still is.

Payman Langroudi: You know. Kunal. Of love teeth. Yeah. Kunal Patel. Yeah. [01:37:10] I mean, they they do up their practices really nicely.

Moj Dehghanpour: Really nicely.

Payman Langroudi: He still says the thing most people [01:37:15] talk about is.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah, TV.

Payman Langroudi: On.

Moj Dehghanpour: The ceiling is so weird, right? And it’s such a simple thing to potentially [01:37:20] do if you’re opening up a practice. But.

Payman Langroudi: So what have you done about marketing?

Moj Dehghanpour: So marketing. [01:37:25] Look, we’ve tried everything. Absolutely everything. We’ve spent loads [01:37:30] of money on sort of digital stuff with various agency known, well-known agencies. [01:37:35]

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Moj Dehghanpour: Um, we spent money ourselves, um, [01:37:40] on, you know, obviously the usual stuff like Google and pay per click SEO, all that kind of [01:37:45] stuff. We’ve done leaflets, we’ve done going to local businesses. We’ve done, [01:37:50] uh. The most successful one, in [01:37:55] all honesty, is still, to this day, word of mouth recommendations. Yeah, because the patients are higher [01:38:00] up the sort of the purchasing sort of, uh, cycle cycle. Uh, [01:38:05] Google’s been pretty good. That’s been pretty fruitful. Uh, we spend a lot of money on agencies. [01:38:10] For us, it didn’t work.

Payman Langroudi: Did you manage to get your head around, like, cost per acquisition? [01:38:15] Yeah, yeah, the cost per lead. Cost per actual. Yeah. So, so so how much was it? [01:38:20] What was the kind of cost for one guy to be sitting in your dental chair?

Moj Dehghanpour: Uh, [01:38:25] sort of. It’s changed as time’s gone on based on. So I can tell you for, for example, [01:38:30] for, uh, Google at one point, it went as, as high [01:38:35] as £100 for a patient to sit in the chair.

Payman Langroudi: I’d say higher. I’d say.

Moj Dehghanpour: It [01:38:40] was.

Payman Langroudi: Around today.

Moj Dehghanpour: Now it’s lower for us because we’ve we’ve managed to [01:38:45] tweak it and get better at it And you know but but but [01:38:50] we at at one point for, for our Google stuff it was around £100, £110 there [01:38:55] or thereabouts. Right. And so when you know, search associates.

Payman Langroudi: Implants, [01:39:00] Invisalign, these sort of search terms.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah a lot of them, a lot of.

Moj Dehghanpour: Them sort of they get sort of implants and Invisalign [01:39:05] or just new patients, you know, general dentistry dentists. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Dentist, dentist, Islington.

Moj Dehghanpour: Dentist [01:39:10] near me, Islington or whatever. You know, all this stuff. Uh, and so when I would speak to the, to the [01:39:15] dentist and the practice associate, I’d be like, look, guys, we’re spending a load of money on this, right? [01:39:20] I want you to know this. Not because I want you to sort of feel like, oh, I’m doing you a favour, [01:39:25] but I want you to just appreciate every single patient that’s in your [01:39:30] chair. Just use it, um, as almost like a gift. [01:39:35]

Payman Langroudi: Right?

Moj Dehghanpour: A they’ve shown trust in us that they’ve come sit down in the chair. Right. And also, [01:39:40] uh, do them justice, right, by offering [01:39:45] All your talents and skills and services. So I know you. One of the things you always [01:39:50] talk about is like, have you ever asked a patient, what do you how do you feel about your smile in a medical, you know, all that stuff. It’s just [01:39:55] basics, right? Why not? Why not just I’m not saying, you know, [01:40:00] you have to sit there like some car salesman and throw them, throw stuff at it, just [01:40:05] have very casual conversations, say, oh, yeah, you know, so I don’t know. So how do you feel about [01:40:10] it? You know, by the way, how do you feel about the colour of your teeth?

Payman Langroudi: You know, Frank spear talks about, uh, [01:40:15] if you took your dad to a cardiologist. Yeah. Would you want the whole story? [01:40:20] Yeah. Or not? Yeah. And, you know, there is a whole story in every mouth, you know, like, once [01:40:25] you get to tooth surface loss. Yeah, yeah, there’s a whole story, a story.

Moj Dehghanpour: There’s a story you’d want [01:40:30] to know. And so you want you want that clinician to sort of delve into the, the, [01:40:35] the the whys and hows. And you know what’s happened there. Right. You’re paying for that professional [01:40:40] advice. And so they’re not there to you. I think sometimes [01:40:45] there’s that misconception, you know, and it’s sort of where, where, where some people get a bit uneasy about the whole selling thing. [01:40:50] Right? It’s no one is saying you have to force [01:40:55] or push stuff on, on a patient. Right. But [01:41:00] I think it’s you’re not doing them or you are doing them a disservice [01:41:05] if you feel they could benefit from something and you don’t offer it. Yeah. Okay. [01:41:10] So if you think their teeth are yellow, just say, how do [01:41:15] you feel about your teeth? And if they say it’s fine, okay, move on, I move on. That’s it I don’t then [01:41:20] you know, that’s when you become a, you know, like a dodgy car salesman or a.

Payman Langroudi: You know, up to you. [01:41:25] How how exactly you handle this.

Moj Dehghanpour: Just very casual. Very. It’s just like, you know, how, uh.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:41:30] the difference is interesting, right? The difference between Moj associate and [01:41:35] Moj practice owner. And I know you were you went from VC to practice owner, but practice owner [01:41:40] in the NHS system that it’s the exact opposite situation.

Moj Dehghanpour: You’ve got I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Thousands [01:41:45] of patients.

Moj Dehghanpour: Listen, I remember I had one day is like 44 patients. [01:41:50]

Payman Langroudi: But what I’m saying, the difference in you where you’re noticing each patient’s going £120 [01:41:55] to get in the door. Yeah. Is to have that conversation with your people and say, [01:42:00] look, this is gold. Yeah. And if not, not only sell to these people. Yeah. [01:42:05] Treat them really well. Don’t treat.

Moj Dehghanpour: Them. Treat them.

Payman Langroudi: Blow their socks off.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah. I mean, the danger [01:42:10] is, you know, and the the, the and what you know, I’ve done [01:42:15] is I’ve provided all the gear and all the tech and all the gadgets and scanners and cameras and TV [01:42:20] in front of the chair. Tv above the chair. You know, you put your X-rays in on the TV in front. [01:42:25] You put your scan, scan, connect the scanner to the TV in front and photos the full shebang. Right. [01:42:30] And and I’m I’m a big believer in, um, educating patients with visuals. [01:42:35] Right. Because I think it’s massive, massive aid. Right. And I take loads of photos and scans and all the rest of it. And [01:42:40] again I said to these guys, I was, look, you’ve got all the tools here. You’ve [01:42:45] got CT scanner, OPG, digital radiography, photo cameras, [01:42:50] DSLRs, scanners. Just use it. Don’t use it. I’m not saying don’t go and scan patients for [01:42:55] unnecessarily CT scans or whatever, but if there’s a need, do it. And you know and I know [01:43:00] some principals, I think they sort of charge their associates for use of certain things and whatever. Yeah. [01:43:05] And, and I’ve been in practice where that’s been done myself where, you know, it’s [01:43:10] there. I’ve put the money in there. I want you to use it.

Payman Langroudi: What about the split? I mean, [01:43:15] you’re investing in marketing. You’re investing in CapEx. Yeah. Is your split with your associate [01:43:20] 50, 50? 60, 40? What is.

Moj Dehghanpour: It? It’s not. It’s 42%. Okay. Which [01:43:25] I think for London and where we are and the type of practice I think is reasonable. Um, I know there’s a [01:43:30] there’s a sort of big push for a lot of places to go lower. And I know they go lower than that. I’ve had [01:43:35] associates come to me and they’ve got. But, um. Uh, what [01:43:40] we’ve done is we’ve done a bit of a sliding scale. So then it’s like, and I’ve had [01:43:45] the frank discussion with him and say, look, this are this is our fixed costs hourly. [01:43:50] Um, if you hit above this, [01:43:55] there’s, we split the reward basically. Yeah. Or you get rewarded more, you know, and that’s [01:44:00] what we’ve done. And I think that’s fair. And actually, um, when I, when I spoke to the associate, actually, [01:44:05] you know what? This is reasonable.

Payman Langroudi: And your reflections on associates like hiring, [01:44:10] uh, do you reckon you’ve.

Moj Dehghanpour: Hired every single person in the practice?

Payman Langroudi: Reckon you’re [01:44:15] good at it?

Moj Dehghanpour: Um, I don’t know, I don’t know, I never [01:44:20] I don’t think I’d like to say if I’m really good at something, because I think it’s probably usually [01:44:25] for other people to judge that. But all I will say is up [01:44:30] to now and it’s early.

Payman Langroudi: Days.

Moj Dehghanpour: Up to now. Up to now.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve done well.

Moj Dehghanpour: I’ve [01:44:35] done well.

Payman Langroudi: But how can you tell? Can you tell?

Moj Dehghanpour: I can tell.

Payman Langroudi: By talking to someone.

Moj Dehghanpour: Oh, oh, how [01:44:40] can I tell? How can I make the judgement?

Payman Langroudi: Can you tell by talking.

Moj Dehghanpour: To a lot of the time? Yeah, I know, I mean, I do, [01:44:45] um, um, you know, we’ve recruited now nurses and receptionists and stuff [01:44:50] like that, and I’ve got and I’ve got an idea in my head as to sort of who, who I can get on with. Um, [01:44:55] and it’s going to be different for different people. Um, but a [01:45:00] lot of the time I know within the first 30s and I [01:45:05] make judgements with that. Now, sometimes that might be wrong, I don’t know, but I’ll still make the judgement. And until [01:45:10] I’m proven wrong, maybe you.

Payman Langroudi: Trust your instincts.

Moj Dehghanpour: I go through and I think [01:45:15] and I think up to now touch wood. All the guys I’ve recruited [01:45:20] have pretty much are still with us.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But you know, my point is this. Let’s say you’ve got I [01:45:25] mean, you’ve almost answered it already, but but someone’s got a beautiful portfolio, [01:45:30] a brilliant CV.

Moj Dehghanpour: Everyone’s got a really nice portfolio these days.

Payman Langroudi: But but you don’t connect.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:45:35] then the opposite. Someone who doesn’t have the best portfolio.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah. This is something [01:45:40] that if you speak to my practice manager, she knows. Yeah. I repeat every single [01:45:45] interview. I’m more interested in the personality than the skills. And [01:45:50] that’s whether it’s the nurse, whether it’s a receptionist, whether it’s the dentist or hygiene therapist [01:45:55] or whatever. Okay. I’m the person for me, is more important. They have to fit within the vibe [01:46:00] and ethos of the practice, and that is positive. And I always say [01:46:05] I’m interested in positive vibes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah for sure.

Moj Dehghanpour: Uh, because negative [01:46:10] people are toxic. They are. One negative person will bring down your whole practice [01:46:15] and patients will pick up on that. You have one negative person as a nurse. Dentist. Reception. Patients [01:46:20] walk in, they notice that, you know. I’ve had instances where, for example, one of the [01:46:25] guys got to get a bit stressed out, you know. Um, for example, I think it was [01:46:30] and for good intentions, he was getting stressed because he’s because of trying to look after a patient, but the keeper wasn’t working or [01:46:35] something, I don’t know. There was like a conflict with the Bluetooth or something. It was wireless keyboard and [01:46:40] he’s like running around, you know, etc. and I’m and I’m like, listen. And [01:46:45] sort of maybe, um, one of the receptionist was getting a bit upset because this, [01:46:50] this person was getting a bit stressed. And it’s like, I’m thinking the [01:46:55] patient’s not going to know whether that keyboard is working or not, but they will know when they walk in, when [01:47:00] the receptionist is like, you know, a bit miserable and you know that, that they pick up on the atmosphere [01:47:05] and the tension like you’ve said, right? Yeah. And that’s really important. And that positivity [01:47:10] is extremely important within a team.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah. Everyone’s and I’ve said this to receptionists [01:47:15] I said, look I don’t care. I’ve had receptionists who from Dental non Dental same [01:47:20] with nurses. Um and again with the dentists and therapy hydrogen therapists as well. [01:47:25] I’ve said, you know, everyone’s got they bring me I asked for a portfolio [01:47:30] of course to know that there are certain calibre. At least they know how to use a camera. Yeah, [01:47:35] yeah. But. And some of the photos are beautiful. Way better than mine. Some [01:47:40] are. The composites are way better than mine and some are not. Right. But I’m interested in the person [01:47:45] if that person is motivated. And that’s key. Um, and [01:47:50] wants to do good dentistry and wants to look after people and wants to be part of a good team. [01:47:55] Team. That’s the most important thing for me. So that’s how I know when I speak to someone. It’s just a feel I get, [01:48:00] you know, like, you know, you’ve you’ve been to thousands of practices, right? You walk in just like you said. You [01:48:05] get a vibe of the place and whatever you hear laughter, little things like that. Sometimes you can’t put your finger on it.

Payman Langroudi: I had the clinical [01:48:10] director of my dentist on and she was saying she can she can tell within the first ten minutes [01:48:15] of a zoom call. Yeah.

Moj Dehghanpour: So now basically a lot of the time what happens is, yes, my practice [01:48:20] manager will do zoom calls, for example, which she’s been doing recruiting for Maida Vale. You know, I’m sort of in their [01:48:25] background. I’ll have a, you know, maybe poke my head through, say hi or whatever, and [01:48:30] then I just stand there for about 10s. Sometimes I just close my eyes and [01:48:35] then just see how they speak, how they respond to just how they say hello.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:48:40] yeah, yeah.

Moj Dehghanpour: Just that first five words, you know.

Payman Langroudi: And then super important man, they’re going to [01:48:45] say hello to 30 people or 15 people a day whatever it is. Yeah.

Moj Dehghanpour: And um, and then [01:48:50] I just look at the practice manager, I’d be like or or. Yeah, bring him, bring him for [01:48:55] a trial, literally. It’s like, don’t waste your time 20 minutes on this because it’s not [01:49:00] going to happen. Yeah. Just because of the way they’re holding themselves sometimes body language etc.. You know, [01:49:05] these things are important. And I think and I think, you know, um, sometimes, [01:49:10] um, I’ve always been a bit OCD maybe [01:49:15] about how and actually, I think a [01:49:20] lot of it came from Tony, the guy who owned Hospital Lane. And he was I’ll never [01:49:25] forget it. I started the hospital in on 2nd September 2016. Within the first few [01:49:30] days of me being there, he walked into the surgery. He was talking to me. Oh, how’s it going? You know, how’s things? I [01:49:35] could just see his eyes are just like, you know, wondering, right? And then he’s fixated [01:49:40] somewhere behind me, and I’m like, what’s he looking at? And he looked at, like, one of the one of the drawers. And [01:49:45] he was like, oh, it’s a little chip on there. I need to get that fixed. And I was like, I’ve been here for a week. I’ve [01:49:50] not even noticed that, you know, little things make a difference to people. [01:49:55] We sometimes forget as dentists how that when a patient walks into [01:50:00] the practice and then into the surgery, the things that go through their head when [01:50:05] they see a coffee mug on the side of the worktop, when they [01:50:10] see, you know, the dentist or nurse or whatever is a bit scruffy looking or [01:50:15] not presentable, and the scrubs are all like creased and whatever, uh, [01:50:20] loads of clutter on the worktops, you know, you, you know, I was telling [01:50:25] selling my novels. I listened because I had a sort of training with me as a trainee. Recently I said, listen, I’m really fussy [01:50:30] about making sure you don’t have, like, the last patients, like x ray up on the TV or [01:50:35] something before, you know, make sure you get rid of all that. Put the music on. I like this channel, put this [01:50:40] on. You know, all these little things.

Payman Langroudi: It’s more important in dentistry than in most businesses [01:50:45] because in dentistry, the patient can’t see what you’re doing.

Moj Dehghanpour: Thank you. So when they walk [01:50:50] in.

Payman Langroudi: They only cuz they’ve got are these cuz.

Moj Dehghanpour: Exactly. They use this to form an opinion [01:50:55] based about what you actually do with your hands.

Payman Langroudi: Look, you could say the same thing about a restaurant. Yeah, but then [01:51:00] eventually the food’s going to come and you’re going to taste the food.

Moj Dehghanpour: The proof’s in the pudding.

Payman Langroudi: Proof’s in the pudding. Whereas with the dentist, [01:51:05] you have no idea.

Moj Dehghanpour: No idea.

Payman Langroudi: You have no idea. All you have are these non non, uh, [01:51:10] teeth clues. Yeah. Yeah. And so like you say that the handle of the [01:51:15] door. Yeah. Is more important than the amount, the filling. Now I’m sure you can [01:51:20] do the filling very well. Yeah. But from the patient’s perspective he has no idea whether he did that thing well.

Moj Dehghanpour: And this [01:51:25] goes back to the whole communication thing and how why communication is so important. It’s not so much what you do with your hands, you know, when, [01:51:30] um, uh, the, the changeover, um, to [01:51:35] Bupa happened on Hospital Lane. Uh, and apologies for this, Mark, but if you, [01:51:40] if you, if you do listen to this Mark Allen. Um, but we used to have Molton Brown hand washes [01:51:45] in Hospital Lane, you know, quite affluent clientele there. Right. And I [01:51:50] remember when Bupa took over the Molton Brown hand washes disappeared. Right. [01:51:55] Got some sort of cheaper brands, I don’t know whatever whatever the bulk buyers [01:52:00] you know. So I had a patient come in saying, oh I need this is the truth. [01:52:05] I noticed how since Bupa has taken over, the Molton Brown hand washes have changed, have gone. [01:52:10] And I was like, bloody hell. Do you know what never even occurred to me? What ambush we’ve got in the toilets. [01:52:15] Right. But people pick up on this stuff and I remember again, I had to [01:52:20] For, and it wasn’t really my place because I was an associate of Spirit Lane. [01:52:25] Right. But I loved the place, and I still do.

Moj Dehghanpour: It’s phenomenal. Amazing practice. Right. [01:52:30] Um, and I, you know, when I was leaving, I put an advert up on Facebook. I [01:52:35] don’t know if you saw it or not. It put some photos up. I’ve got so many messages and likes on the post [01:52:40] and stuff like that, you know? Um, and I [01:52:45] had to fight really hard to get some, you know, they’re going to [01:52:50] change the chairs. And I was like, I can’t look, patients here are of a certain calibre. They [01:52:55] appreciate quality. And you know that premiumness of the product. Yeah. It’s got everything’s got [01:53:00] to fit. You can’t put a cheap chair in a practice like that. Now it might work in another practice, but not in this. [01:53:05] Right. Because people pick up on these things and people not you know, we’ve got to we’ve got to respect [01:53:10] people because people are not stupid, right? They they know when they walk in, they [01:53:15] pick up on the vibe. They see how clean the practice is. They pick up on the tech, they pick up on the gadgets. How [01:53:20] presentable the staff are, how they greet them, their coffee, you know, all that kind of stuff.

Payman Langroudi: It goes back [01:53:25] to positioning. Yeah. It does. You know, that’s that’s the thing it does. You know, [01:53:30] what is the position.

Moj Dehghanpour: Maybe in answer to your question because you said was it intentional or not? Yeah. [01:53:35] In all honesty, if I were to look [01:53:40] at the product we are offering, actually, maybe we should be higher up [01:53:45] near the right at the top of the sort of the the food chain, [01:53:50] if you like. If I’m being honest. But because maybe. [01:53:55]

Payman Langroudi: He was scared, I was scared, you know, I want to put them.

Moj Dehghanpour: On seats, right? I [01:54:00] want to put bums on seats and I want to get patients through the door. And I’ve got overheads and bills.

Payman Langroudi: Like you said.

Moj Dehghanpour: Rather than [01:54:05] charging £1,500 for a crown like I did in Kent like you now charge.

Payman Langroudi: You know, we never know [01:54:10] how a business is going to turn out, you know, and fear is a big part of business, you know that. You know, that [01:54:15] sort of they talk about it in in the stock market Fear and greed index. Yeah, it’s a big [01:54:20] part of any venture. You know, we’re doing any new product. Massive fear. Massive fear. [01:54:25] You know, because you spent the whole year testing this stupid sensitivity. Ben. [01:54:30] Yeah. And now what’s going to happen to it? Yeah.

Moj Dehghanpour: 100%. [01:54:35] But also, you know, you got to bear in mind, you know, I, um, had I gone [01:54:40] to sort of more conventional route of, okay, I’m going to open a practice and it’s going to [01:54:45] be me and one nurse and maybe a receptionist and then maybe one hygienist. The overheads are much lower. [01:54:50] You know, I’d gone for a big, almost like corporate skill from the word go. [01:54:55] Right. So I’d taken this risk. Now it’s like, okay, well, that model of okay, I’m going to charge like two [01:55:00] grand for a crown. Um, it’s a it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a [01:55:05] plan that you and your partner have decided on already, or [01:55:10] are you, you know, going on it one day at a time, seeing what opportunities come along [01:55:15] or, you know. Have you said, hey, we’re going to grow it to this number or this amount of turnover [01:55:20] or this amount of profit or anything like that?

Moj Dehghanpour: Uh, no, [01:55:25] we’ve not we’ve not put a fixed number or anything on there. Um, [01:55:30] I think we’ve, we some would say we’ve grown, [01:55:35] uh, to that second practice too quickly or it’s really quick. Everyone gets shocked. But actually for [01:55:40] us I think it’s the right it feels comfortable doing it at this pace now. I think, [01:55:45] uh, that practice one is sort of running reasonably smoothly. I’ve got stable [01:55:50] team now. It wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t like that day one. This is. Yeah, man. I’ve had it’s been a stressful [01:55:55] 18 months. Yeah. Um, juggling a lot of things at the same time. [01:56:00] And, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Are you, are you on purpose going for squats then. Because you know, you’re [01:56:05] going for, like, this sort of clean slate approach?

Moj Dehghanpour: Uh, I mean, initially, yes. Um, I’m [01:56:10] not saying, you know, never say never. I don’t know what, you know might be that an [01:56:15] opportunity would come. What I do know is that I’m not interested in touching anything with a NHS [01:56:20] element. I’m just not. I know it works for some, maybe, but it’s [01:56:25] not for me. Um. And, um.

Payman Langroudi: Definitely more difficult the way you’re doing it here. Because one [01:56:30] pattern. One pattern I noticed when I sat down with loads of different multi practice [01:56:35] owners, the vast majority of them, the way they got their funding and everything was because they [01:56:40] were NHS element in the practice. Yeah, of course there’s many who haven’t done that. Done [01:56:45] it privately. Yeah. But um more difficult, more, more risky.

Moj Dehghanpour: It is more difficult. [01:56:50]

Payman Langroudi: It’s probably it is more risky. If I was ever going to own a practice, I wouldn’t bother at all with it.

Moj Dehghanpour: I [01:56:55] just it’s just not me.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Moj Dehghanpour: It’s just not me. And I and I can’t. [01:57:00] And like I said, I still see myself [01:57:05] very much as a practising dentist, and I just. That’s not me. So it feels [01:57:10] it doesn’t. I would almost have to sort of go against the grain of who I am [01:57:15] today, mixing myself up into that world. I understand [01:57:20] though. Yes, in terms of funding and finance and stuff, like it’s probably a heck of a lot easier and less work, in all [01:57:25] honesty. I mean, the metaverse, you know, taken us quite a long time relative to Islington. Um, [01:57:30] and, you know, you go through all these building shoes and planning and this and this [01:57:35] and neighbours and, you know, all that kind of stuff. Right? And then recruiting everything from scratch. And [01:57:40] but it is difficult. But ultimately I know that what I’m putting out there now actually it’s [01:57:45] all me. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s amazing.

Moj Dehghanpour: It sort of fits.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve come to the end [01:57:50] of our time. Yeah. Two hours in. Wow. Enjoy.

Moj Dehghanpour: The time flies when having fun, huh? [01:57:55]

Payman Langroudi: Final questions.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy dinner party. Three [01:58:00] guests, dead or alive.

Moj Dehghanpour: Okay. Uh, [01:58:05] it’s a bit of a tricky one. Um, because, Uh, weirdly. [01:58:10] And I don’t want this to come out. The sound the wrong way, but I’ve never really [01:58:15] had a whether it be someone I look up to in that or idol [01:58:20] or whatever, you know. You know, so I know some people go for big sports figures and whatever [01:58:25] musicians and I don’t know. Michael Jackson or Muhammad Ali or people like that. So [01:58:30] having said that, when I was a kid, I loved football. Uh, I probably play more than [01:58:35] what I watch now. I watch big games and World Cup and things like that. But the only [01:58:40] real when I was a kid, um, or younger, uh, the only real sort [01:58:45] of sports hero, if you want to call it that I had was a guy called. You probably [01:58:50] remember him. Roberto Baggio, the guy. Italian guy with the ponytail who missed that famous penalty [01:58:55] in the World Cup against Brazil. I don’t know why. I just used to love him. I really, really [01:59:00] liked him. And because of him, I really got into Italian football. It was James Richardson, the [01:59:05] guy on Saturday, Sunday mornings on channel four. Uh, so I used to watch that [01:59:10] and I started to sort of support Juventus as well as a result. So Roberto Baggio, just [01:59:15] because as a kid, it’s sort of it’s just my favourite, favourite footballer. Uh, [01:59:20] and then the second person I think it’s [01:59:25] going to sound again, a bit of a weird one, but I think with the current, uh, [01:59:30] events in the world especially, I think [01:59:35] I would really like to sit in front of Donald Trump.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:59:40] yeah.

Moj Dehghanpour: I think it would be entertaining.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Moj Dehghanpour: And I think it would be. Yeah. [01:59:45] Interesting guest to have. And I’d just love to see if what [01:59:50] we see is the real Donald Trump. You [01:59:55] know, he obviously, you know, people love some people like him. Some people hate him.

[TRANSITION]: But [02:00:00] I just want to.

Moj Dehghanpour: See is there more to him than.

Payman Langroudi: What.

Moj Dehghanpour: We see. And I think there is. I think I think [02:00:05] he’s a lot smarter than at least what he portrays.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. With with all of these politician [02:00:10] types, you know, they all are a lot smarter than you think. Yeah. Yeah, they they are. [02:00:15] And he’s famously very charming. Yeah. Very funny.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah. Well, he’s definitely very funny. I mean, you [02:00:20] know, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: But he he is a narcissist, I’m sure. But I’d like to. You’re right. It’d be [02:00:25] fun to have it.

Moj Dehghanpour: I think it’d be entertaining. I think anyone, no matter what you think of him. And you know.

Payman Langroudi: What [02:00:30] you would think of him?

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah, it’d be interesting, because Badger’s quite an introverted guy. Uh, from [02:00:35] all the interviews I’ve seen, uh, and or clearly Donald Trump is anything but that. Um, [02:00:40] but I think he’ll be entertaining, and I think it’ll be interesting. The third I’m going to make, I’m going to put [02:00:45] a bit of a weird twist on it, uh, if it’s okay if you allow me to do so, and [02:00:50] I think I’m going to go, am I allowed to go for someone in the future?

Payman Langroudi: I’ve never had that before. [02:00:55]

Moj Dehghanpour: Okay, so I would like to invite my [02:01:00] son when he’s my age. So I’m 42 now. When [02:01:05] he’s 42.

Payman Langroudi: How interesting.

Moj Dehghanpour: And I would like to see sort [02:01:10] of the man he’s become. Okay. But [02:01:15] now hopefully you never know. I might still be alive then.

Payman Langroudi: How interesting.

Moj Dehghanpour: Okay, um, but [02:01:20] I would like to see what the type of person he’s become. And I would like to listen to his journey. Similar [02:01:25] to my journey. I want to see. And I just want to compare the difference in experiences. [02:01:30]

Payman Langroudi: How interesting.

Moj Dehghanpour: Right. You know, I want to see. Did he ever get bullied at school? Did he ever have this? You know, I [02:01:35] mean, obviously he’s only five now. He’s going on six, but I would I’d [02:01:40] find that interesting. Yeah, weirdly, I actually found this app the other day. Uh, [02:01:45] it just came on, I think my social media or something. And then I downloaded it and it was called Clone [02:01:50] Eye. And you put a, like, a baby photo or a kid’s photo [02:01:55] in there, and it basically projects what they look like. Yeah. When they’re 75.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, wow. [02:02:00]

Moj Dehghanpour: And it was weird. It was really watch. And he does a sort of timeline of like when they’re 20, 30, 40. So [02:02:05] I put my both my son and daughter’s photos on there. A bit freaky, but, um, interesting. So yeah [02:02:10] I’ll put I’ll put is.

Payman Langroudi: It’s funny when when your kids are young that’s that’s a constant thing that [02:02:15] you think I did. I always look at that kind of thing. What kind of adult is this kid going to be like?

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah, [02:02:20] I’d like.

Payman Langroudi: To, but the you know that all the I find the older I get, the more I realise [02:02:25] all of the clichés are real. All of them. Yeah, yeah. But particularly [02:02:30] the ones around time flies and, you know, like, and be present with your kids and all that. I remember [02:02:35] at age five I was like, God, this is taking so long. So difficult. Yeah. And suddenly [02:02:40] you blink and they’re 17. Like literally. And things change a lot [02:02:45] around 11, 12, 13, 14, you know, every year. Totally new person comes.

Moj Dehghanpour: It’s already [02:02:50] in the first five, six years is like a different completely changed.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve never had the future person I’ve had. I’ve [02:02:55] had my previous self, my younger self, that sort of thing.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the final question. [02:03:00]

Moj Dehghanpour: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a deathbed one. On your deathbed, surrounded by your loved ones. Three [02:03:05] pieces of advice for them and the world.

Moj Dehghanpour: I think, look, [02:03:10] I would say try and, um, [02:03:15] try and be aware of the [02:03:20] people around you. Try and not be self-centred. If there is, if if there is someone or people [02:03:25] around you that you can help, try and help them. You know, um, often [02:03:30] it doesn’t cost a lot to just give a bit of time to people. Um, and [02:03:35] I think long term it whether you, [02:03:40] you shouldn’t do it to get something back. But inevitably the way the world [02:03:45] and karma and whatever you want to call it, the way the universe works, you do often [02:03:50] get get it back and, you know, in abundance and sort of having that abundance sort of mindset, [02:03:55] I think is important. And I think that is I know my dad’s always had that, um, you know, [02:04:00] he’s helped loads of people, you know, over time, whether and never necessarily returned. But somehow [02:04:05] he always says like, you know, oh, I’m so lucky and whatever. And I just things just generally tend to [02:04:10] work out for him.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s important that you don’t expect anything back. Yeah. No. For sure. I [02:04:15] get what you’re saying. You tend to get it back in some in some way.

Moj Dehghanpour: Don’t do it. But I think it’s [02:04:20] it’s you know, I’ve had it recently. For example, I had, um, a couple of young [02:04:25] guys apply for work experience, for example, at a practice. Right now, I know what it was like when you had to apply [02:04:30] to this business and that business, try and get all these hospitals and then wait a month for them.

Payman Langroudi: There’s nothing in it for the [02:04:35] practice, is there?

Moj Dehghanpour: There’s nothing. Right. But other.

Payman Langroudi: Than just.

Moj Dehghanpour: I think one kid came in, um, [02:04:40] into the practice and, um, and, uh, said, oh, can I do work experience? And I think [02:04:45] my manager said, listen, we can’t do it. You know, whatever. We’re busy and, you know, send him away. Right. [02:04:50] And then I saw an email that that I think they’d originally emailed [02:04:55] in, and then they came in And then I saw the email and I said, oh, what happened [02:05:00] to this? Did someone respond to this? Uh, this boy. And she said, oh, yeah, he actually came [02:05:05] in. I said, oh, sorry, we can’t. I said, why? Why would you say that? Fine. Just let them come in like [02:05:10] it’s not. It’s not a problem. So I actually then myself emailed the boy back saying, [02:05:15] listen, you know what? It’s such an amazing email. I genuinely wanted to meet him when he came [02:05:20] in. It was like phenomenal. This kid, like 15 send this email. The way it was so eloquently put. [02:05:25] And I remember he came in with his mum and I said to him, I’ve got a question to ask you in front of his mum. [02:05:30] Did you write this email or was it ChatGPT or was it your mum? [02:05:35] And then the mum said no, honestly, I didn’t even know he’d applied. It was all him. And he goes [02:05:40] no I didn’t, I didn’t use it. It’s just I just. And I said, wow man, you’ve got such a bright future. [02:05:45] There’s so well put this email. I said, yeah, of course. Just stay the whole week. Right. It’s fine. And [02:05:50] I’ve had other people messaged me.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, even if you said ChatGPT well done, right.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah. Just having the, sort [02:05:55] of the initiative to do that. Right? Absolutely. It’s like, you know, these little things just I mean, just a small example, [02:06:00] but it doesn’t cost anything. But you could make a real difference to someone, right? [02:06:05] Uh, and I think so that’s, that’s one.

Payman Langroudi: Thing around sort of kindness and.

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah, exactly. You [02:06:10] know, if you, if you can do it. Yeah, it’s, you know, um, I [02:06:15] think, um, also look, as I said a couple of times, I am a genuinely [02:06:20] taken risks and punts in my life on various things. And I think [02:06:25] it although I get the, the, you know, people want to play [02:06:30] it safe sometimes and etc., but I think unless sometimes you take those risks, you know, I [02:06:35] had a practice and I was doing fairly well out of it. Sold it, went to went to a foreign country, [02:06:40] you know, wasn’t it. So everyone was like, oh my God, you’ve never been in a situation? Because I remember I’d jumped from a PhD [02:06:45] straight into partnership. Right. You’ve never been in, so you’re going to hate it, blah blah blah, etc.. Actually, it was fine. [02:06:50] This best thing I ever did it. Going to Norfolk in the first place was a risk. Then [02:06:55] coming out of Norfolk was a different risk. And then going to Kent and then opening a car wash, you know, [02:07:00] all these things and it’s actually been the best things of all sort of that have happened. So I think [02:07:05] it’s sometimes just you just got to take that step and be brave and bold and sort of do it. [02:07:10]

Payman Langroudi: Especially, you know, action. Yeah. Is is the point. You know, I [02:07:15] often come across people I haven’t decided if I’m going to do Indo or Perrier. Yeah, yeah. And then they might spend three years [02:07:20] thinking about Perrier. Either of them would have been great to just do it.

Moj Dehghanpour: Just do something. [02:07:25]

Payman Langroudi: Do something. Because the action itself.

Moj Dehghanpour: Is better than no action sometimes. Right. And I’ve got a friend of mine who’s a bit like [02:07:30] that, and I said, look, man.

Payman Langroudi: Come on, stop.

Moj Dehghanpour: Procrastinating. Just do something right and then have a goal and [02:07:35] then work towards it. Right. You know, it may work out. You might not I don’t know, you know, people said, oh, what do you open in the second [02:07:40] practice or the first practice? Whatever do you think? How do you think? I said, I want to see I don’t know, I don’t know, [02:07:45] you know.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the final one?

Moj Dehghanpour: Um, and then the final one, I [02:07:50] think. I think it’s. It’s [02:07:55] a good quality to have to be dependable. Mhm. I think [02:08:00] one thing again this is from my dad. My dad generally when he promises someone something [02:08:05] he.

Payman Langroudi: He delivers.

Moj Dehghanpour: Maybe doesn’t 100% always deliver. But he tries his goddamn [02:08:10] hardest to deliver. Right. And I think I’ve always had that in me as well. So [02:08:15] if I say to you, I might be absolutely shattered right on a day. But if I said to someone, I’ll meet you for dinner or even, [02:08:20] like, even, like, social events, you know, I’ve got friends who just bail last minute. That’s all right, but I’ll turn [02:08:25] up. Right. If I make. If I say if I say to you, I’m going to see you at 2:00, I will turn [02:08:30] up at 2:00, no matter what.

Payman Langroudi: Or we’ve all got friends of both types, right?

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah. [02:08:35]

Payman Langroudi: So be the dependable.

Moj Dehghanpour: But I think. But I think because of that, I think I’ve managed to, you know, people [02:08:40] have taken me seriously because I know that I’m just like, okay, dependable. You can trust that he will deliver, [02:08:45] you know, and I think, you know, one of the things, for example, I do feel Tony says. [02:08:50] Do you know what I like about you is that, you know, you you sort of, uh. Okay, [02:08:55] you sort of have this ability to attract people and make people sort of like. And I think that’s very important as [02:09:00] well, by the way, you know. But but equally, you can sort of you can rely on the fact that, okay, you’re just [02:09:05] going to be a man of your word kind of thing, you know, as much as possible.

Payman Langroudi: Which I’ve been asking people this, the final, final thing. [02:09:10] Yeah. The way you answer that question, a lot of a lot of us answer it the same way. It’s like, I’ve [02:09:15] done this. It’s worked for me. You should too. Yeah. What about something [02:09:20] that you haven’t done that you would advise people to do? Or [02:09:25] a way of being that you’re not one way you wish you were. That you would tell your kid to be [02:09:30] like, all right, let me give you a lesson. I’ve got my silly example. I tell my kid, go to the gym more. [02:09:35] Not because I go to the gym a lot because I don’t go to the gym enough. So what kind of thing comes to [02:09:40] mind when I say that?

Moj Dehghanpour: Yeah. I mean, to be honest, I only started going to the gym a couple of years ago, and I wish I’d gone sooner, so, um, [02:09:45] but I do feel much better. And actually, my neck and back and everything, [02:09:50] it’s a lot better for it. Um, I think. Look, um, [02:09:55] I am generally, I’m a bit impatient. I [02:10:00] am an impatient guy, and I’ve got sometimes, um. So it can be a good [02:10:05] thing. Can be a bad thing. But I am, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes bored easily.

Moj Dehghanpour: I [02:10:10] get bored very easily. I’m not the type who can sit at home and, you know, you know, people say, oh, yeah, I can’t wait to [02:10:15] retire. And it’s like, yeah, but what are you going to do then? You know, it’s like, I can’t sit still for more than [02:10:20] five minutes. You know, even this is probably the longest. I’ll sit still. And, you know, I do have this thing of [02:10:25] like, you know, bit, sort of ADHD type, sort of.

Payman Langroudi: Me too. So be patient. [02:10:30]

Moj Dehghanpour: Be patient, be patient. And, um, and maybe [02:10:35] sometimes, I mean, again, going back to sort of the, uh, [02:10:40] being too quick to judge, maybe sometimes I’m a bit too quick to judge. And I was saying that about the [02:10:45] interviews and it can work out sometimes quite well, but equally can be sometimes a bit too quick. [02:10:50]

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Yeah, it’s been a massive pleasure. I’ve learned so much.

Moj Dehghanpour: Likewise. Thank [02:10:55] you for inviting me.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been great. Well done. For, for for being so open.

Moj Dehghanpour: It’s a pleasure.

[VOICE]: This [02:11:00] is Dental Leaders, the podcast [02:11:05] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [02:11:10] hosts, Payman Langroudi and [02:11:15] Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, [02:11:20] you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually [02:11:25] sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming [02:11:30] you got some value out of it.

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