Month: July 2025

Kiran Malviya: And that’s the thing that for me has helped me throughout my career, and I also try to do that [00:00:05] a lot. Is the difference between potential and performance, right? When you’re hiring young [00:00:10] talent, uh, there will not be any performance because they’re just too young to have proved [00:00:15] anything at all. Right? But if you see the potential and you give them a chance, they [00:00:20] can do wonders. And for me, I’m very, very grateful to Reiko. Uh, because [00:00:25] she was the one who took a chance on me. I remember there were supposed to be 2 or 3 rounds [00:00:30] in that interview, and I didn’t have any, so I only spoke to Rica. And Rica basically [00:00:35] said, this is your chance. You either take it or leave it. I said, okay, I at least need to take permission from [00:00:40] my husband. Can [00:00:45] I please give him a call and ask him? Amazing. [00:00:50] And yeah, my husband was busy in a patient, so I had to, you know, just take a call. And. [00:00:55] And that’s how it began. So.

[VOICE]: This [00:01:00] is Dental Leaders. The [00:01:05] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:01:10] Your hosts Payman [00:01:15] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Ladies and gentlemen, [00:01:20] it gives me great pleasure to introduce Kiran Malviya to the Dental Leaders [00:01:25] podcast. She’s the vice president of Enterprise Solutions [00:01:30] at Strawman Group EMEA. But [00:01:35] that’s just a long title. And when I first met a guy called Stuart Thomson [00:01:40] at one of these DSL summits, he said, you’re going to meet Kiran next week. She owns [00:01:45] a third of the world when it comes to scrum, and you’re really going to [00:01:50] get on well. But our journey and our connection, actually, Kieran started much [00:01:55] earlier than that and I received a LinkedIn message from you on [00:02:00] the 29th of January this year. I’m going to read it out. It [00:02:05] says, hi, Prof. I came across your name multiple times and [00:02:10] I’m impressed with your work. I thought we should not only be connected, but also [00:02:15] probably meet when I’m in the UK or you’re in Europe. Regards, Kieran. [00:02:20] I thought, who’s this? That’s a random message. And [00:02:25] then I saw your title and your seniority and strawman. [00:02:30] Then I reached out to my man in the know Astrum and Guy Bellamy. Right. [00:02:35] And I said, Guy, do you know Kieran? She reached out to me and she and [00:02:40] he said to me, Kieran is a these were his words. Kieran is [00:02:45] a force. She’s such an amazing leader. And you guys are [00:02:50] going to get on. Right. So that was my introduction. And then a few months later, [00:02:55] probably about six months later, we met. Okay. And when we met, you said [00:03:00] a few things to me. And we had we’ve had numerous conversations which we want to bring to the surface [00:03:05] today, but one of them was actually when you [00:03:10] guys were engaging with me as a speaker in the DSO summit, and [00:03:15] you said it was a bit of a risk to [00:03:20] hire you. Prof. It was it was a risk for me. Right. We’re going [00:03:25] to go into your story and everything, but what I want to do is I want to give people just a flavour [00:03:30] of our relationship before before we get stuck into your story. Right? What [00:03:35] was the risk? What was going through your mind?

Kiran Malviya: Well, um, when [00:03:40] we are organising these events. Right. Uh, it’s, uh, I think [00:03:45] the only thing that’s in my mind is that if somebody is taking their time out [00:03:50] and attending these events. Yeah, they got to be worth their time. Yeah, [00:03:55] and nothing else. It’s not really for me to promote the products that strawman [00:04:00] sells. It’s not really to promote people from inside strawman or the brand strawman, [00:04:05] etc. all that can subtly happen. But the most important point for me is if [00:04:10] somebody is coming and sitting in that room for a day and a half, they have to take [00:04:15] something back. And that’s why the speaker selection process for me, [00:04:20] I’m a little too, uh, you know, deliberate in that one. Yeah, [00:04:25] of course, it didn’t come automatically. We have had some, uh, bad choices in the past, uh, [00:04:30] because of which you you create a process that works. Uh, and that’s why when I [00:04:35] said that there is a risk, it’s more to trigger or [00:04:40] to kind of, uh, you know, nudge you a little bit in seeing what [00:04:45] is your motivation towards coming and speaking at an event like that?

Prav Solanki: Wonderful. [00:04:50] Well, look, that helps, but I think we should get into your story. And [00:04:55] if I, if I was to just spend a moment going through your LinkedIn profile, we’d all be able to see [00:05:00] how the incredibly decorated career, right from having your own dental [00:05:05] clinics to numerous leadership positions over a decade at Philips [00:05:10] at different leadership levels, and now in Stralman as Vice President [00:05:15] of Enterprise Solutions EMEA. Um, before we [00:05:20] get stuck into your career and your role and your journey on on the work side of things, [00:05:25] and I want to understand what Kieran was like as a little girl [00:05:30] growing up, your childhood. Take me back to your childhood and your [00:05:35] upbringing. How would you describe that?

Kiran Malviya: Well, I think, um, [00:05:40] I feel that I possibly have [00:05:45] now become what I was as a girl. But through the journey somewhere, I was completely [00:05:50] opposite of what I am today, right? So as a as a little little girl, I [00:05:55] was really, you know, very carefree, wanted to play with boys all the time, did [00:06:00] not want to do anything which is any remotely homely. Yeah. And, uh, [00:06:05] my father’s, uh, you know, little angel, uh, and, uh, was [00:06:10] a very, uh, how should I say, law abiding good girl in the [00:06:15] sense that I remember a story where. Oh, actually, once my teacher basically [00:06:20] told me that, uh, you will never figure this out. Forget it. So [00:06:25] I went home and I closed my bags, kept my books aside, and I was, [00:06:30] uh, chilling. And my mom was like, don’t you want to do homework? And I was like, my teacher said, you’re never going [00:06:35] to figure it out, so why bother? So, you know, so I was that [00:06:40] dumb, I would say. And there’s another time. My brother, basically. Uh, in Indian mythology, [00:06:45] you take water, you pour it on somebody and you kind of curse them that you will [00:06:50] never be able to ride a bicycle, for example. And then I never bother even trying. [00:06:55] Right. So I was really a very, no wise, dumb idiot [00:07:00] girl. Back then, however, I had this carelessness in me which I see still [00:07:05] coming to me at this stage. Of course, I have come a long way in [00:07:10] courage and being brave and, you know, speaking up and all those things. But I think [00:07:15] that carelessness and that taking people on the face value, trusting people [00:07:20] part is still there. So yeah.

Prav Solanki: Interesting. And where was it that you grew up, [00:07:25] Kieran?

Kiran Malviya: I grew up in, uh, in India, uh, in the centre of India, there’s [00:07:30] a city called Nagpur. Uh, it’s also called the Orange City. It’s famous for its oranges. [00:07:35] They are, in fact, exported across the globe. Uh, that’s where I grew up. Yeah. It’s a [00:07:40] very warm place. Very, uh, 45, 50 degrees in the summers. [00:07:45] So, yeah, that’s where I grew up.

Prav Solanki: And what was what was that you mentioned [00:07:50] that, you know, you were a little bit you had a, you know, carefree spirit to use it as [00:07:55] a young girl. Right? If, if, if somebody said, you’re not going to do this, you were like, screw it. I’m not going [00:08:00] to do it anyway. Right? And, and whatnot. And you just took that sort of approach. And [00:08:05] what what was your upbringing like as a child? Your parents, were they strict? [00:08:10] Were they carefree? And were there any sort of stereotypes that [00:08:15] you kind of hear about as a Indian girl growing up? Never mind in [00:08:20] India, even here in the UK, right. Can you just add a little bit of colour to that in terms of what [00:08:25] your upbringing was like?

Kiran Malviya: And we spoke about this job, right? I mean, I had a very comfortable, [00:08:30] privileged childhood. Dad was a timber merchant. Uh, [00:08:35] so he did have sufficient money. But the stereotypes [00:08:40] of raising a girl child in India do exist, Right. So, for example, there [00:08:45] were different rules for me and my brother when it came to going out wearing clothes. What [00:08:50] sport is allowed and what sport is not allowed and stuff like that. Right. Yeah. And [00:08:55] then there is this very typical Indian parenting style where the girl [00:09:00] is prepared for the worst because they believe that the girl is anyway is gonna [00:09:05] be, you know, going to another house where they will have no control over what her life will be. [00:09:10] So we want her to be like having all the survival skills. And she should know [00:09:15] how to, you know, survive even in the worst conditions. She should be, you [00:09:20] know, educated and groomed enough to also survive in the best conditions and so [00:09:25] on. So they’re made very, very versatile in, in what style can [00:09:30] take. And that’s, that’s what my childhood was as well. Right. And uh, yeah, [00:09:35] I think I mean things like I wasn’t allowed to wear sleeveless [00:09:40] dresses.

Kiran Malviya: I wasn’t allowed to swim and things that I wasn’t allowed to. But on the [00:09:45] other hand, there was a whole lot of things that I was taught as well. Right. So, um, [00:09:50] of course, cooking is not a skill. I was supposed to be learning that, but I didn’t pick it up. [00:09:55] But, uh, but a lot of other things. Right? Wherein, [00:10:00] uh, how do you care for elders? Uh, how do you respect everybody no [00:10:05] matter what? And more core values of, uh, of love and [00:10:10] care? Uh, because the intention was always to make you ready for [00:10:15] running a household in the future. So, yeah, that’s [00:10:20] a little bit how, uh, my upbringing was. I won’t say that it was very strict. [00:10:25] It wasn’t strict, but it was traditional and conservative. And I’m very, very [00:10:30] thankful for my parents, to be honest, to be able to also inculcate those values in me. [00:10:35] Because when I see this generation today, that is something that is big time lacking. So [00:10:40] I would say that we were, in fact the lucky ones who did get best of both [00:10:45] worlds.

Prav Solanki: As a child growing up. Did you feel that [00:10:50] at the time? Did it feel unfair at any point or that that hey, you know, [00:10:55] why can my brother do this and I can’t do that, or or did you just accept that, [00:11:00] hey, this is Asian Indian culture.

Kiran Malviya: And I did not accept it. I was [00:11:05] quite a rebel. I was quite a rebel right from the start. And I remember writing these poetry’s [00:11:10] about all, you know, women empowerment and and feminism [00:11:15] and all of those. And I was made fun of it, um, by my brother, [00:11:20] by my dad, uh, by my friends. I was too much of a feminist. I have [00:11:25] to say. Of course, the definition of feminism has evolved as I grew older, [00:11:30] but I always felt for women’s rights. I always felt that, uh, why should you [00:11:35] have different rules? Uh, why can’t you do it all? Like I would. I [00:11:40] would rebel in small things. Like I wasn’t allowed to ride a bike. For [00:11:45] example, the one with the gears I was giving to one, which was easy. The one which did not have [00:11:50] any gears and could just go up it kind of thing. Right?

Prav Solanki: Because girls can’t do that.

Kiran Malviya: Exactly. [00:11:55] Because it’s not what girls write. Right. Girls don’t write the bikes. The. Yeah, the enfields [00:12:00] and the bullets of the world. But I just took my dad’s scooter and went away one day. [00:12:05] And, you know, the rammed it into a into a wedding hall. And [00:12:10] I came back home with a few bruises and just a kilt. Uh, but [00:12:15] I was I was quite a rebel right from the start. And I think that has also been [00:12:20] my strength in a way. Sure. Um, you know, just challenging the status quo, asking [00:12:25] questions. Uh, probably. That’s why my parents [00:12:30] were a little bit worried that I might, you know, completely break the [00:12:35] societal norms and they decided to marry me off super early. But [00:12:40] I do believe that that was probably why that’s that’s the streak that they saw in me. [00:12:45]

Prav Solanki: Really, really interesting conversation here. And so you mentioned [00:12:50] earlier on the, um, you were being prepared to run a home. [00:12:55]

Kiran Malviya: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. The your upbringing, everything revolved around running a home. So, [00:13:00] you know, normally we, we look at our children now and we say, look, you know, I want my [00:13:05] daughter to be happy. She’s doing economics at university. Um, [00:13:10] and I just wanted to get a career and find something that a she’ll be successful [00:13:15] in. Whatever she deems to be successful should be super happy, independent, [00:13:20] and she’ll find a great life with somebody. Right. And but but in your in your [00:13:25] sense, I guess maybe your brother was given the given the, the basis [00:13:30] that actually what he’s going to do is he’s going to provide for the home. Right? Being the man of the house. [00:13:35] And you were going to go there and run a home. What did you understand? [00:13:40] Your future or your fate to be? Did that mean you could afford [00:13:45] to be less academic or. No. What was the what was the general message [00:13:50] from your parents at that point there?

Kiran Malviya: It’s a very, very interesting perspective, and I have tried [00:13:55] to ask this multiple times, and what I understood of what my dad had in [00:14:00] mind is he made sure that I had a professional qualification. That’s why I’m a dentist, [00:14:05] right? So I went into the dental school, um, although I did not [00:14:10] have any inclination for medical biology or whatever, but he believed [00:14:15] that dental education is a five year degree program. In five years, [00:14:20] you have a professional qualification in your hand. So if you want, you can also be independent [00:14:25] and working part time or whatever. And you can also take care of your family. [00:14:30] So you can basically have a nice work life balance. Uh, and that’s [00:14:35] why. And plus, my dad always believed that for a woman to [00:14:40] be educated is very, very important for the next generation to be good [00:14:45] human beings. So there was no question of not being academic at all. And that is probably [00:14:50] my my Asian upbringing as well. And my parents Asian thinking [00:14:55] parenting style, where they believe that academic is, is is mandatory. [00:15:00] That’s like a hygiene factor. There’s no you know, you can’t be based around it. Exactly. [00:15:05] That’s the basics.

Prav Solanki: It’s like switching the lights on. Right.

Kiran Malviya: But that’s that [00:15:10] has been with us. I mean, I’m an Asian parent as well, and I think that is something that all [00:15:15] of us who are from Asian origin carry with us, uh, that you have to [00:15:20] you have to be good at math. You have to be good at science. That’s a no. That’s [00:15:25] a no compromise, uh, you know, situation, uh, and, uh, everything beyond that [00:15:30] is fine. You can do whatever else.

Prav Solanki: But you were being [00:15:35] prepared to run a home, essentially. And then what you said after that was interesting, which was my [00:15:40] father married me off young, okay. Like it [00:15:45] was his choice to marry you off. Absolutely right. Like [00:15:50] you were his property. And it was up to him to say [00:15:55] you will now marry this person or whatever and marry you off. Right. I do want to dig a little bit into your [00:16:00] education.

Kiran Malviya: Absolutely, absolutely.

Prav Solanki: I want to understand what what that means. In today’s [00:16:05] world, when someone marries you, was your husband chosen for you? Were you introduced [00:16:10] to him? What was what? What was being married off? I want to figure out [00:16:15] what. What that what that was like back in the day.

Kiran Malviya: Well, um, there [00:16:20] are few steps to it, right? Number one, you’re not allowed to fall in love. Why? Because [00:16:25] you have to study and you have to, you know, make your academics ready. [00:16:30] And if you if you fall in love, uh, in college, you’re basically going to be distracted. [00:16:35] Yeah. Uh, plus, if you fall in love with somebody outside your religion, outside your, you know, [00:16:40] the scope, uh, then you’re also going to ruin it. Ruin the family name. So. So those [00:16:45] were kind of the boundary conditions, uh, of falling in love. Number one. Right. [00:16:50] Number two, about love. A very basic thing that was taught to me. And it I completely [00:16:55] believed and lived by was that if you live with anybody for six [00:17:00] months, 24 hours, you’ll fall in love. It’s easy. So it’s, uh. Everything else is overrated. [00:17:05] So? So no point in wasting time on something as trivial as that. [00:17:10] Right. Yeah. Now comes the point of getting married, right? Getting married? What is [00:17:15] the right time? Who is the right guy? Uh, you know what is the right family in [00:17:20] the arranged marriage system in India? You generally don’t give the girl a lot of choice. [00:17:25] Joyce, uh, you typically, uh, you know, meet after your parents have [00:17:30] decided who you want to be, uh, you know, married to.

Kiran Malviya: And [00:17:35] then you kind of give a cursory yes or no. Which is which is really doesn’t [00:17:40] which doesn’t really matter at all. It’s it’s kind of decided. Decided. And then, uh, [00:17:45] yeah. You don’t really have the choice to say no most of the time. And in my [00:17:50] case, uh, well, my, my husband, uh, he was my teacher at [00:17:55] university, uh, and he knew my logic of not falling [00:18:00] in love. And he also knew that I’m gonna marry whoever my dad says. Yeah. Uh, so he [00:18:05] preferred to kind of let me know that I can tell my dad that this guy is interested, and [00:18:10] then everything else can then be arranged. And I was still in my final year. And [00:18:15] then my dad convinced me that this was the right time. The guy was the right one, the family was [00:18:20] the right one, and so on. And which is mostly get convinced or get convinced. Kind of [00:18:25] a conversation. Uh, and, uh, yeah, I, I got engaged, uh, when I was still [00:18:30] in my final year, which is, uh, when I was 21. I got married when I was 22, [00:18:35] and I had my daughter when I was 23.

Prav Solanki: Amazing, amazing. So [00:18:40] it sounds like you kind of reversed engineered this situation, right? [00:18:45] But but still went along. You were in lockdown boundaries, those guardrails that were [00:18:50] given to you and you respected those, but you kind of reverse engineered it.

Kiran Malviya: Oh, [00:18:55] absolutely. And I think Prav back then it was way easier. It didn’t feel [00:19:00] like, oh, I mean, I had not seen any other side of the world. Uh, [00:19:05] so it it felt super easy. It felt to be the right thing to do. It felt [00:19:10] like the right choice. Right? So I don’t think I have any regrets. But once you grow up [00:19:15] and you see the other side, you see other people, you see love. Uh, you can also, you know, [00:19:20] uh, code people and you can have some trial runs before going for the final [00:19:25] one is then you realise, oh, so I didn’t, I did not get that chance.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, yeah yeah. [00:19:30]

Kiran Malviya: But no. But all said and then I, you know, I fell in love with my husband [00:19:35] after I got my child. So after we got our daughter is when we [00:19:40] started to get really, really attached morally, uh, you know, um, [00:19:45] so yeah, uh, and it’s beautiful because.

Prav Solanki: And relationships [00:19:50] are a funny thing, right? When I, when I spoke to my father about arranged marriages, um, [00:19:55] and and just out of curiosity. Right. I was asking him questions. And he always used to [00:20:00] say to me, this, that. Look, you know, people have a checklist for their [00:20:05] sons, for their daughters. And and if those checklists match, um, then [00:20:10] the parents agreed, right. Your daughter will marry my son or whatever, and and [00:20:15] whatnot. But but usually you’re aligned in terms of ambition, culture, Earth status, [00:20:20] whatever you want to do. Whatever’s on your checklist. Right. And. And I used [00:20:25] to say, well, what about falling in love? And he said, what about it? He [00:20:30] said, you get married and then you fall in love with that person. You don’t fall [00:20:35] in love with the person you’re going to marry. Right. And that whole thing is so foreign. [00:20:40] Right. And but it works, right? It works. That’s [00:20:45] the long and short of it. Right. And.

Kiran Malviya: Yeah. But, you know, if I were [00:20:50] to just diverge for a second. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe we we include this or not include [00:20:55] this. Doesn’t matter. But I do believe that, you know, love and [00:21:00] marriage are two different concepts. Right. Yeah. For [00:21:05] a marriage to work. It’s a 50. It’s a gamble that you make in life. [00:21:10] You have equal number of love marriages that have failed as an arranged marriage.

Prav Solanki: Completely. [00:21:15]

Kiran Malviya: Right. But love is a different story. Love can happen in different ways. [00:21:20] You can fall in love with somebody at school. You can fall in love with somebody at college. [00:21:25] You can fall in love with somebody you’re married to, and you can fall in love with somebody at work. It’s [00:21:30] really nothing to do with being married or not being married to that [00:21:35] person, right? So for me, this particular concept of love being essential [00:21:40] for marriage didn’t make sense back then. Doesn’t make sense now.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. [00:21:45] And look, I [00:21:50] think relationships are a really interesting thing. I know, you know, during my relationship with [00:21:55] my wife and we we did fall in love, right? But let me tell you, during our [00:22:00] marriage, we’ve also fallen out of love and back in love. Right. And [00:22:05] and we’ve been on that rollercoaster that. Yes. We fell in love. We got [00:22:10] married, okay? And we’ve had our ups and downs. And there’s been times where we’ve been completely [00:22:15] out of love with each other. You know, I’m glad to say that we are very, [00:22:20] very much in love with each other right now. Right. And things may change right up and down [00:22:25] in that roller coaster. Right?

Kiran Malviya: Absolutely. And, you know, I in fact, you know, I have this crazy [00:22:30] idea which I when I tell my husband, he said, don’t tell it to anybody outside the world, I [00:22:35] say the marriage should be a five year contract up for renewal every five [00:22:40] years, you know, based based on how well you have performed, based [00:22:45] on if the terms and conditions have been met, you should be renewing it every five years. [00:22:50] I mean, just imagine if you knew that it’s going to be closed [00:22:55] every five years. You’re going to work so hard on it.

Prav Solanki: Just then, just in the last six months of the five [00:23:00] years. Right? Yeah, that’s that’s an [00:23:05] interesting concept. It’s a really interesting concept. So and talk me through, [00:23:10] um, your career. Right. So you went into dental school? [00:23:15] Okay. So as a kid, I’m assuming you were a swatty academic. You [00:23:20] got the grades to get into dental school or in India? Is it a little bit different? Right, because [00:23:25] I interviewed them. I interviewed Devon Patel, who’s a full mouth reconstruction [00:23:30] educator here in the UK, and he said to me, look, he said, [00:23:35] I’ll be honest with you. He said, I bought my way into dental school. I failed my [00:23:40] exams, but the right things were said at the right time, to the right people [00:23:45] and I kind of made myself there. He said, listen, if I was a complete idiot, I wouldn’t have got [00:23:50] in, right? There’s no amount of idiocy that will get me in there. But, but, but that was the case. [00:23:55] Talk me through. I’m not necessarily saying that that’s what happened to you, but I’m. [00:24:00]

Kiran Malviya: Just, you know, like anything else in India, everything is possible. Everything has a workaround. [00:24:05] So you will get people who have just bought their way into [00:24:10] a medical school, and you will have people who have slacked their way to the medical school as well. I think [00:24:15] I’m somewhere in the middle because for me, first of all, as I said, I did not [00:24:20] really have any interest in biology, etc. but it was more like my brother [00:24:25] was an engineer. I had to become a doctor. So, you know, that’s something [00:24:30] which is decided for you.

Prav Solanki: So it’s just like your husband, your career was decided for you, [00:24:35] right?

Kiran Malviya: Exactly. So it’s it’s more like a choice that you don’t really have. Yeah. So, [00:24:40] uh, so I did, uh, give all the examinations. I scored fine. [00:24:45] Uh, you know, and if you’re academically oriented and you don’t want doing anything else in your life, [00:24:50] you might as well study. Right. So I was a decent child, decent student, [00:24:55] and I got through, uh, the dental school. Uh, one thing that is also very interesting [00:25:00] in India is that you do not really have a dedicated examination for dental [00:25:05] admission. You give a medical admission test and the top scorers go [00:25:10] into to MBBS medical. The ones who are the next level. Going to enter the [00:25:15] guys after that go into physiotherapy and then.

Prav Solanki: It’s that right? Is that right?

Kiran Malviya: Exactly. So [00:25:20] you you typically are going into. Dentistry because you did not make into the into the MBBS. [00:25:25] Right. In my case, however, I did not want to make my dad pay for [00:25:30] my MBBS degree. So I had a choice between a private medical exam medical [00:25:35] college versus a dental college. And it all boiled down to the [00:25:40] amount of money that my dad would have to spend. So I decided to go for dental because I did not want [00:25:45] him to pay too high for the medical because of my self-made, you [00:25:50] know, approach. And I wanted to do things on my own merit and all that. Right? And [00:25:55] that’s how I ended up in dental. I was a decent student, I have to say. I [00:26:00] was the guinea pig batch when they had changed the curriculum from writing [00:26:05] long essay based answers to multiple choice answers and so on. So I [00:26:10] would say it was very easy for me. Uh, coming from a CBS education, multiple [00:26:15] choice questions is rather easy. If you have decent communication skills, you can kind [00:26:20] of crack the waiver. Uh, so I would say dentistry was quite easy [00:26:25] for me. I didn’t have my heart and soul into it, but passing dentistry wasn’t rocket [00:26:30] science. So yeah, I did pass dentistry decent enough. Uh, [00:26:35] I did.

Prav Solanki: And at what point you had your child, uh, at what, [00:26:40] age? 20?

Kiran Malviya: I was 23.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, you was 23. Just [00:26:45] just finished dentistry at that point. Finished and just finished dental school at that point.

Kiran Malviya: I was [00:26:50] married immediately after I finished dental school. So in India, dental school is five years, including [00:26:55] the internship. Yeah. So immediately after those first five years, I was married, and within [00:27:00] the first year of my marriage, I had my daughter. Wow. So. Yeah. [00:27:05]

Prav Solanki: Well. So. And then what happened after that? Because in a way, you’ve got your own dental [00:27:10] clinics, right? Were you destined for business or to run your own business, or did [00:27:15] you do your work somewhere else after that?

Kiran Malviya: No. Well, um, so I was I [00:27:20] was married into a into a joint Gujarati family, um, where I was basically [00:27:25] living in a house with, uh, eight other people, uh, and, uh, [00:27:30] you know, typically when you are a daughter in law, in a family, your life is all about cooking [00:27:35] and taking care and so on. And, uh, unfortunately, um, none [00:27:40] of the women in the family were allowed to work. So I basically [00:27:45] landed into, uh, this house. Uh, and I wasn’t really allowed to work. [00:27:50] So, you know, four months into the marriage, I was like, what’s going on? I [00:27:55] mean, I’m a doctor. I, I need to I need to be useful. I need to work. I can’t [00:28:00] just be cooking. Four times a day. Yeah, that’s that’s not what I can.

Prav Solanki: And you were a mother model at this point. [00:28:05] I’m just trying to I’m just trying to paint a picture of.

Kiran Malviya: What was going on. Immediately after marriage the first year, I realised [00:28:10] that I cannot work. So the first four months when I wasn’t allowed [00:28:15] and then I started the fight and rebel and, you know, started to make a case for, uh, [00:28:20] for being able to.

Prav Solanki: Kieran, how does this manifest itself? You move into a house with eight people [00:28:25] and and you’ve got this career ahead of you, you’ve got your dental [00:28:30] degree, which you breezed through, and you think to yourself, right, I want to go and put these skills [00:28:35] into into practice. And someone tells you what is was it an unwritten [00:28:40] rule? Or as you entered the house, it was like, because everyone, every other woman in this household [00:28:45] is not working, it would just be frowned upon. What was it stated [00:28:50] to you?

Kiran Malviya: What was? It’s more, um, so how should I say it’s. Well, when I got [00:28:55] married, when the entire process was going on, etc., there was no question asked [00:29:00] of whether I’ll be allowed to work or not allowed to work. My parents assumed that it’s a given [00:29:05] that if the girl is a doctor, she’ll probably have her own practice. She’s marrying to a dentist. [00:29:10] So they have their own practices and they will basically practice together. [00:29:15] It’s a given, right? But when I land into this house, I realise that. Well, [00:29:20] that’s not okay. Uh, you know, women don’t work, so you need. Because [00:29:25] other women don’t work. You should also not go and work because otherwise it will cause, you [00:29:30] know, rift in other women and so on and so forth. So for months, I basically sit and [00:29:35] think, how do I get my way out of this? You know, how do I how do I convince [00:29:40] or get convinced? So that’s also my life motto, been either convince somebody [00:29:45] or just get convinced. But don’t just sit and do nothing. Right. So [00:29:50] I think I started to make a case for part time work. So [00:29:55] the first job that I got was like a two hour at a charitable trust hospital, [00:30:00] as a as a general dentist. And that’s how I started to work. I was [00:30:05] pregnant back then. Um, um, so also it was easy, uh, because then [00:30:10] I anyway worked full time. And before that I started to just go [00:30:15] and assist my husband in his practice, and that was okay as well. [00:30:20] That okay, she’s just going with her husband, she’ll come back home, blah, blah, all of that.

Kiran Malviya: Yeah, it was okay. And [00:30:25] then eventually, uh, there was a time when my daughter, um, was [00:30:30] well, it was my I was full term or something. I don’t remember exact timeline [00:30:35] when I had that conversation, but I basically said that, hey, look, this is not what [00:30:40] I want my life to be. I cannot be sitting at home cooking four times, doing nothing, watching TV. [00:30:45] That’s just absolutely not the life that I really want. And I remembered also telling [00:30:50] my dad that, hey, this is something that’s not working out right. And my husband, [00:30:55] he he knew he understood the problem, but he also did not know how to fight his [00:31:00] family. Right. So he basically told me that. Why don’t we start a little at [00:31:05] a time, right? And then when my daughter was, I think one or something was [00:31:10] when I basically put my foot down and said, hey, I want my own practice. I [00:31:15] want to be, you know, if I’m if I’m a dentist, if I’m capable of it, I want to be [00:31:20] running my own practice. So when my daughter was one, uh, we basically [00:31:25] set up my own independent practice, which was different from my husband, uh, still under the same brand name. [00:31:30] And that’s how I, I started a full time working [00:31:35] journey. Uh, it was very, very interesting time because, you know, um, we were not allowed [00:31:40] to have a cook in the house, so you can have servants for pretty much everything, but [00:31:45] not a cook because, uh, you know, you only have to eat the food cooked by the [00:31:50] women of the house.

Kiran Malviya: So, you know, you you basically are cooking, uh, four [00:31:55] times a day. You’re managing your practice. You’re managing your newborn, [00:32:00] and, uh. Yeah. So it’s it’s pretty, um, you’re kind of taking care of the family [00:32:05] and the elders and everything. So it’s a it’s a different lifestyle. I won’t say [00:32:10] it’s bad or good, but I have to say it’s a different kind of lifestyle that you [00:32:15] that you get used to, you know, and I, I was fine with [00:32:20] it. I mean, there was one thing that I also believed was bloom, where your planted. I think my sole [00:32:25] aim in life was to be a good mother, to be a good wife, to be a good daughter in [00:32:30] law, to be good to my patients and just be good at whatever I have been [00:32:35] presented with. Right. So it never came to my mind to to fight for something or [00:32:40] to conflict or to go against anything. Right. And I believe that is also something [00:32:45] that is been a significant part of my personality. I have [00:32:50] obtained whatever I wanted to, not by fighting, by permissions, [00:32:55] by approvals, by making people agree to it. It’s been quite for me. [00:33:00] It’s been quite natural when I think back, based on what we had spoken of the other day, [00:33:05] it feels like a very, you know, arduous journey or or a tedious way of [00:33:10] life, etc. but it doesn’t really feel that way for me.

Prav Solanki: But, you know, [00:33:15] you came into this house, there’s this eight people in there. I’m assuming there’s a there’s a head [00:33:20] of the home or whatever, right. Who calls the shots? And then you said, you know, [00:33:25] you you voiced yourself to your husband. And he said, let’s just do this a little [00:33:30] bit at a time. So it felt like for me, that conversation, he was on your side and you were working [00:33:35] on a strategy together? Yeah. Um, and perhaps correct me if I’m wrong. [00:33:40] Maybe he was a little bit scared of offending the wrong people. Um, or [00:33:45] or sending the wrong message to the wrong to to the people. Because, um, you know, maybe maybe [00:33:50] his parents were felt that he should do as he’s told. Um, [00:33:55] and as as his wife would do. And even if they he threatened to leave the home [00:34:00] with his wife, that would be a disaster, right? An absolute [00:34:05] travesty of of, you know, whatever. You know, this this is betrayed his parents [00:34:10] or whatever. Like what?

Kiran Malviya: You know, a very interesting thing about Indian [00:34:15] joint families that I have come to realise. And I also try to tell some [00:34:20] of the other girls, uh, in India, who are still going through [00:34:25] this kind of, uh, uh, system. You know, I believe that when you are married [00:34:30] into a family, right? You really need to embrace the family as your own. You first [00:34:35] really need to be part of them. You know, just consider them to be [00:34:40] your family for the rest of your life. Yeah, and exactly like you would probably tell [00:34:45] your parents about what you want to do. Slowly, slowly and steadily [00:34:50] and see the moods and, you know, make one step at a time is exactly the way [00:34:55] that you kind of navigate your way into getting what you really want. And I think for [00:35:00] me, that’s exactly why it worked out. So I did not, from [00:35:05] day one, say, hey, I won’t do this or I won’t do that, or, you.

Prav Solanki: Know.

Kiran Malviya: This is all you know, you [00:35:10] guys don’t know how to live or whatever, right? It really had to be subtle, and it really had to be [00:35:15] slowly, steadily change one thing at a time, etc. for example, they were they were very religious, [00:35:20] and I’m not at all religious. Right? But then I can’t really go in [00:35:25] and make fun of what they have.

Prav Solanki: Respect.

Kiran Malviya: Right. Exactly right. [00:35:30] So you respect it, and you suddenly tell them that, hey, this is great, but this is [00:35:35] not something that sits with me. But I won’t come in your way and stuff like that, right? And of course, there’s [00:35:40] just one person who you need on your side. That’s your husband. And if that’s there, [00:35:45] then everything else kind of is a piece of cake, I have to say. But but yeah, you [00:35:50] have to pick your pick your battles, the right ones at the right time and navigate through them. [00:35:55] And that’s the way to kind of get what you want in a joint family.

Prav Solanki: That’s great. And [00:36:00] so what happened next? What did you did you then move out after a period of time or. [00:36:05]

Kiran Malviya: Not really. I think once I started practising dentistry, uh, we were doing [00:36:10] pretty well. I think between me and my husband, um, there was one, uh, financial, [00:36:15] how should I say roller coaster that we had to cross because, uh, his [00:36:20] dad was in a in a in a business in a cloth clothes business, and, [00:36:25] uh, his shop had basically burned down, so he had undergone a [00:36:30] massive amount of losses because of that. And, uh, we had to kind of, [00:36:35] uh, you know, take over that debt that he had because of all these [00:36:40] financial losses. And back then, insurance and all was never existing. Right? So if you if you [00:36:45] lose, uh, stuff in your business, it’s basically your loss. Somebody has to cover up, right? So [00:36:50] we got those. And then, uh, that was all the more reason for us working hard. [00:36:55] A blessing in disguise. Because that also established me as a professional quite [00:37:00] well. Uh, and we started both of us started earning four hands. [00:37:05] Uh, you know, we we we collected money, we, uh, and then, you know, [00:37:10] we we we gave ourselves seven years to build our life again.

Kiran Malviya: We said, okay. First [00:37:15] seven years of our life, we are going to just earn on and on. Uh, because both of us really [00:37:20] wanted to study. Both of us really wanted to explore the world. Uh, we were full [00:37:25] of, you know, dreams and desires. But this thing around fulfilling our liabilities, [00:37:30] fulfilling our debt, etcetera, was, uh, was necessary back then. Uh, [00:37:35] he also had some, uh, siblings that had to be married off and so on and so forth. Right. So [00:37:40] there’s a lot of liabilities that had to be taken care of. So we said, okay, we give ourselves seven years [00:37:45] and we did it. So we earned we. We made properties, we cleared the debt. [00:37:50] And at the end of seven years, we basically were at that juncture. I [00:37:55] remember we had just moved in to the new house that we had bought and built. Actually, it had been [00:38:00] four months and we were thinking of a second child. Uh, it had [00:38:05] been the right time, in the right moment in time, where we thought, okay, maybe we [00:38:10] take the next step in our life.

Prav Solanki: You need a five year contract? Yes. [00:38:15]

Kiran Malviya: Seven years, in fact.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Kiran Malviya: And, uh, and that’s [00:38:20] when, uh, basically we said, okay, let’s let’s try different things. Let’s try to explore [00:38:25] what’s there. Uh, our clinic was running very well. So we knew for a fact that, [00:38:30] uh, if we could either expand our clinics vertically or horizontally, [00:38:35] basically, both could work. Uh, and when I say horizontally, I mean set up more chains across [00:38:40] the city and the and the state and vertically, which means that we were planning on [00:38:45] buying a building and converting it into a dental hospital. But [00:38:50] both of these needed somebody to know more about business, somebody to know more about, [00:38:55] uh, you know, marketing strategy and stuff like that. So that’s [00:39:00] when basically, uh, I was the one who was good at math and English and [00:39:05] communication and all of that. So I went for my MBA, and which was [00:39:10] also a big thing, because I went for a full time MBA at the Indian School of Business, [00:39:15] uh, leaving my seven year old daughter, uh, at home. Uh, and [00:39:20] which was very, very unconventional. So, you know, I mean, you can’t imagine [00:39:25] how much people would say, oh, you’re gonna, you know, how can you even have a life [00:39:30] outside your family after you have had a child? Right. So that’s still [00:39:35] and I believe that many, many women, even today, they feel that, okay, [00:39:40] once you’re married and once you have a child, the end. But for me, it was the story, [00:39:45] right? So I, I kept my daughter with [00:39:50] my parents, and I went for a full time MBA. Uh, in order [00:39:55] to learn, uh, strategy, marketing and entrepreneurship. And then on [00:40:00] the campus. Yeah. I met an amazing woman leader who basically [00:40:05] took a plunge and hired me on Philips. And that’s how my corporate journey began. [00:40:10] And I never looked back after that.

Prav Solanki: What was your. So when you were doing your MBA, [00:40:15] was your plan ever to go back to dentistry and expand the clinics and use this [00:40:20] knowledge to grow that business?

Kiran Malviya: Absolutely. I mean, the intention was and the reason [00:40:25] why I could, you know, leave my daughter and go, was that okay? I have to go back and [00:40:30] I have to go back to the family. I have to go back to the daughter, and I have to go back to the clinic. So, [00:40:35] yeah, that was all along the plan always to go back and do it. But I think the, [00:40:40] the the curiosity bit. Yeah. The bit where, uh, we are [00:40:45] brave enough to try things out helped us to also evaluate this offer [00:40:50] from Philips. Seriously. And I remember when, uh, when her name is Rekha Ramanathan, [00:40:55] and she still is my, uh, you know, uh, first teacher, so to say. Because when and [00:41:00] you can imagine. Right. I’m a doctor. Yeah. I have no idea what corporate guys do [00:41:05] I have. I had never worked in a corporate before. And there is this, uh, you know, [00:41:10] head of marketing of the Indian subcontinent talking to me about a role, uh, and [00:41:15] which was a commercial leadership program. Uh, and I, she asked me everything about [00:41:20] what I do, my background, etc., and I tell her about how an Indian wedding is organised [00:41:25] and how I was, you know, how do you run a joint family and how [00:41:30] do you run a dental practice? Everything, which has nothing to do with, uh, corporate [00:41:35] and complexity in a corporate world.

Kiran Malviya: Right. Then that’s the thing that for me has helped me throughout [00:41:40] my career, and I also try to do that a lot. Is the difference between potential and [00:41:45] performance, right? When you’re hiring young talent, uh, there will not be any performance [00:41:50] because there’s just too young to have anything at all, right? But if you see the potential [00:41:55] and you give them a chance, they can do wonders. And for me, I’m very, very [00:42:00] grateful to Reiko. Uh, because, uh, she was the one who took a chance on me. I remember [00:42:05] there were supposed to be 2 or 3 rounds in that interview, and I didn’t have any, so [00:42:10] I only spoke to Rica. And Rica basically said, this is your chance. You either take it or leave [00:42:15] it. I said, okay, I at least need to take permission from my husband. Can [00:42:20] I at least give him a call and ask him? And [00:42:25] uh. And yeah, my husband was busy in a patient, so [00:42:30] I had to, you know, just take a call. And. And that’s how it began.

Prav Solanki: So how did you meet [00:42:35] Reiko? What was it? Some kind of like careers. Fair or chance meeting? [00:42:40]

Kiran Malviya: No. In India, in Indian, uh, B-schools. Uh, [00:42:45] you have, uh, campus interviews. Okay, so the companies come [00:42:50] on the campus for recruiting. Mhm. Um, because that is one [00:42:55] of the key, let’s say, value proposition of Indian business schools that they offer a job. Their job [00:43:00] guaranteed.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Kiran Malviya: So yeah.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. So you met her there. You [00:43:05] had that interview she took a shine to you saw the potential. And the [00:43:10] rest is history. Exactly as they say. So your husband said yes.

Kiran Malviya: Um, [00:43:15] well, he wasn’t available.

Prav Solanki: He wasn’t available to take it. All right. Okay.

Kiran Malviya: But [00:43:20] I think also for him, that was the moment after which he never had to take a, you know, give permission [00:43:25] because then it was, uh, you know, life was completely different. I believe that one year at ISB [00:43:30] changed me, changed my personality. I remember when, and in lectures [00:43:35] in ISP, you have, uh, key points. It’s called class participation [00:43:40] points, right? Wherein whatever is being taught in the class, you have [00:43:45] to give your opinion on what you think. And if you participate, you have some bonus points for [00:43:50] that.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Kiran Malviya: I came from a background where you never express your opinions. [00:43:55] So, you know, I had no idea that you can have opinions, you can express your [00:44:00] opinions and you can gain some points for it. So, you know, it was kind of a complete [00:44:05] learning of a new life for me. And in that one year of MBA [00:44:10] and I came across a lot and a lot of things which I had never, ever seen in [00:44:15] my, you know, traditional, conventional life and that kind of, you [00:44:20] know, opened me up completely. So I think that that that broke all the [00:44:25] inhibitions, hesitations that I had, everything that I had not yet seen. And [00:44:30] yeah, that made me ready for the for the future. What was coming when [00:44:35] I joined Philips.

Prav Solanki: And just I’m just going to switch slightly on that on that period [00:44:40] when you were doing your MBA. Um, well, how far were you from home at [00:44:45] the time? How often were you seeing your husband and daughter at that time during that full step? [00:44:50] But if you were to just paint a picture of what your life was like there.

Kiran Malviya: So, um, the school [00:44:55] that I went in at School of Business, it’s in Hyderabad in India, and it has a [00:45:00] beautiful campus. And at campus you have two choices of accommodation. [00:45:05] You can either take a studio, which is generally for families, or [00:45:10] you can take like a, you know, a flat with four rooms which is generally taken by [00:45:15] bachelors. So of course I took the studio hoping that my family, whenever they want, [00:45:20] they can come and stay with me and go and so on. Right. However, the the catch [00:45:25] here is that they have compressed a two year your program into a one [00:45:30] year program. So for that one year, you are basically sleeping [00:45:35] for two hours a day at best. For the rest of the time you are studying, [00:45:40] or you’re doing a case assignment, or you’re working on a certain project, or you’re [00:45:45] working in a study group or your party, right? So so you don’t sleep. So which [00:45:50] means that for a family to come and stay there was futile. There’s there’s [00:45:55] no point in that. So we agreed that whenever my daughter [00:46:00] would miss me, too bad we would bring her. And she can then stay [00:46:05] with me for a night and a day or two and then go back because even my husband had to [00:46:10] work. Yeah, and she had school, too. So that was kind of the arrangement. So there was no like, [00:46:15] set pattern back then because she was too small. She was just seven. Yeah. So, you [00:46:20] know, you can have these the, you know, need to see mom kind of moments. Uh, [00:46:25] and then she would just come over on an average. I think in a year we would have met like 12 [00:46:30] times or so. So on.

Prav Solanki: An average.

Kiran Malviya: Month. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. [00:46:35] And then straight into Phillips. Yeah. From there. [00:46:40] And so where was that in relation to home.

Kiran Malviya: Well that was the that was in Delhi. [00:46:45] So it yeah it it needed us to move to Delhi. Okay. And [00:46:50] now we have two practices back home in Nagpur and move to Delhi as a family. [00:46:55] It basically needed us to either close the clinics or have a long [00:47:00] distance kind of a life as we have now. But I think back [00:47:05] then since, as I told you, even my husband wanted to explore a point and [00:47:10] the clinic was running very, very well. It was one of the top 5% [00:47:15] clinics in Nagpur back then. Right? So and he’s a brilliant doctor. So we thought, uh, [00:47:20] okay, we, we outsourced the clinics to another couple who were running it for us. [00:47:25] We were still having this, you know, arrangement where we were still getting [00:47:30] a share of the revenue and so on. And then we moved to Delhi, and my then my husband enrolled [00:47:35] himself for a study program in Delhi, and that’s how I landed in [00:47:40] Philips. Although for the first two years in Phillips I was travelling heavily. [00:47:45] I went to Middle East and Turkey, stayed there for around 8 or 9 months, and then [00:47:50] the rest of the time I was in marketing. And as you can imagine, marketing is all about your weekends [00:47:55] or doing events.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Kiran Malviya: So a lot of travel, uh, and [00:48:00] Delhi was uh, was a very, very new place for us, uh, for somebody [00:48:05] who’s never lived in Delhi. It needs some getting used to.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Kiran Malviya: Because in India, Delhi [00:48:10] is the power capital of India, and Mumbai is the business capital of India. So we come from [00:48:15] the Mumbai area where people are kind, and you talk to each other and you smile at each other. And [00:48:20] Delhi is like the snob place. So you basically nobody talks to each other. You [00:48:25] know, everybody is throwing around their power for some reason, so it needs some [00:48:30] getting used to it. But now then. So of course. But back then it needed some getting used to.

Prav Solanki: And [00:48:35] then what was the what was this whole situation at that time? You moved to Delhi. [00:48:40] You had your daughter with you at the time? Yes.

Kiran Malviya: So when we moved, we only [00:48:45] the three of us moved. So the, the, the extended family, we made them comfortable as [00:48:50] we had just built a house back home. They were they still are living in that house basically. They were well [00:48:55] settled there and we moved here. And for my support system, right. My [00:49:00] mother and my mother in law, they would take turns of coming and visiting and staying with [00:49:05] us because I was completely against keeping my daughter with a nanny, because [00:49:10] I believe that the value system that I have are because of the parents. And [00:49:15] I absolutely wanted her to have the grandparents instil the value system in her. So [00:49:20] yeah. And it turned out to be fine. She. She’s raised okay.

Prav Solanki: She’s [00:49:25] turned out all right. You’ve done a great job.

Kiran Malviya: Yeah, yeah, we did a great job. I mean, how [00:49:30] parenting is really a group effort for sure.

Prav Solanki: For sure. And I’m sure she’s turned [00:49:35] out for the better. Right? I’m sure she’s independent.

Kiran Malviya: Yes, I think [00:49:40] I think she’s turned out to be a very, very mature person, very resilient. [00:49:45] Um, uh, in fact, she is my go to person when it comes to, [00:49:50] uh, you know, getting a perspective about things these days. So it’s it’s amazing. [00:49:55]

Prav Solanki: How.

Kiran Malviya: The tables have turned.

Prav Solanki: How old is your daughter now?

Kiran Malviya: She’s 20. [00:50:00] She’s turning 21in November.

Prav Solanki: What you got? You you go to [00:50:05] her now for her perspective.

Kiran Malviya: Absolutely, absolutely.

Prav Solanki: So talk [00:50:10] us through talk us through your career at Philips. So you’ve got you did that [00:50:15] first job. You were travelling all over um, Various [00:50:20] events. Getting to learn the ropes. But you ended up spending, what, at least [00:50:25] a decade at Phillips?

Kiran Malviya: Yeah. Yeah, I, I think well, [00:50:30] Phillips was if I have to summarise [00:50:35] my Phillips experience into 2 or 3 words, [00:50:40] I think I would say it’s curiosity, it’s [00:50:45] hard work and it’s just the courage to speak. [00:50:50] And why I say this is because, you know, when I got in [00:50:55] the first job that I got after the leadership stints, the rotational [00:51:00] program was sales. And back then there was [00:51:05] I was the only salesperson or saleswoman across the industry, uh, [00:51:10] in India. So across Siemens, GE and Philips, there was no other [00:51:15] sales woman. So and I was I immediately got the role of [00:51:20] strategic accounts to the CEO back then, Krishna Krishna Kumar. Uh, [00:51:25] he was my first mentor, so to say, because he was setting up a team to [00:51:30] manage key accounts, dedicated, and he picked up 2 or 3 people from [00:51:35] across India, and he groomed them personally in order to manage these large accounts. [00:51:40] And we are talking about big hospitals, Fortis, Max, Apollo’s and so [00:51:45] on. Right. And he believed personally that in order to manage these large accounts, [00:51:50] you need a slightly different profile. You don’t really need your sales guys who are [00:51:55] selling, uh, the, the magnet and the coils to go to these large [00:52:00] accounts and talk about business. They simply can’t. Yeah. So what he had decided was he [00:52:05] was setting up this key account team. He called them Eskom and he was personally grooming [00:52:10] them. And now when I say personal grooming, it literally means grooming. From what should [00:52:15] you wear? How should you behave? You know, how should you? What? What [00:52:20] should a sales look like? What should you talk to them about? How often should you talk to them about.

Kiran Malviya: So [00:52:25] basics right basics of key account management. And I’m talking about 2012 2013 [00:52:30] time when key account management as a concept was quite new in in the corporate world. Yeah. [00:52:35] So you know and I was this young person. Yes, I was [00:52:40] a dentist, but I had never worked in a corporate, never done sales in my life. And [00:52:45] it was a for sale stint and I didn’t even know the products. I didn’t know what markets [00:52:50] cath labs do. I was simple dentist. I had never, you know, complex equipment. [00:52:55] So I think early on I realised and I remember Krishnakumar telling me that, hey, [00:53:00] till you do your first sale, get out of the office. You cannot come to the office. So [00:53:05] go and figure out your first sale. And when you are in key accounts, even today, [00:53:10] everybody wants to go and work in a key account. You will have the head of sales going there. You’ll have head of [00:53:15] product going there. You’ll have the CEO going there. Up-market everybody wants to go to the key accounts [00:53:20] and talk to customers. So managing that customer relationship while there is a, [00:53:25] you know, plethora of leadership, wanting to go and engage with that account is very, very difficult, [00:53:30] especially if you are new, you, you know, you have no background, etc.. Why will the customer [00:53:35] take you seriously at all? Right. So I think early on I realised that if [00:53:40] I want to learn commercial sales, I need to figure out what [00:53:45] is it that I bring to the table.

Kiran Malviya: Right. And I also figured that I [00:53:50] will never be able to understand the market in such short time completely. I will never [00:53:55] be able to learn everything about the technology completely. Neither am I a radiologist nor [00:54:00] am I an engineer. Right? So I will never be able to crack that one. What I can [00:54:05] basically do when there was a gap back then, was that financing solutions was [00:54:10] not something very well understood by the sales guys. So I thought, okay, this is the [00:54:15] sweet spot and this is if I crack this one. This is probably something that can be my entry [00:54:20] point. And that’s exactly what I did. I went to the finance team at Philips. I told them, teach me. [00:54:25] I want to learn everything about, you know, financing, ballooning, [00:54:30] leasing, etc., etc. and then they they’re very kind to teach me. And that [00:54:35] became my vehicle to succeed within Philips. And I think right from the sales role, uh, [00:54:40] to the sales, uh, you know, business development role to the X-rays [00:54:45] and the digital pathology, that one thing of financing, structuring financial [00:54:50] solutions, outsourcing stuff, you know, modelling, all of that became like [00:54:55] my, my thing. And then that kind of helped me succeed. I think there was the [00:55:00] other thing that Philips, which I really, really appreciate, and I try to bring [00:55:05] that to Stroman too, is are giving young talent [00:55:10] an opportunity to work on strategic projects outside their domain.

Kiran Malviya: And [00:55:15] Phillips did that very well. So they every year they used to have like these 2 or 3 strategic [00:55:20] projects where they picked up people from different functions, different business units, and they [00:55:25] made them work on a completely different strategic project. And there you can, [00:55:30] you know, not only force your mind to do some market research, you are forced to [00:55:35] work and talk to other people. You’re forced to stretch beyond your day [00:55:40] job in order to deliver something good. And it gave visibility to be able to present [00:55:45] to the top management and probably shine your way out. Right. So that I think I did a [00:55:50] lot of those. So every year, pretty much one project I was always engaged in and [00:55:55] I was this hungry, want to be very young, you know, employee, [00:56:00] uh, wanted to prove, uh, I think there was a little bit of an imposter [00:56:05] syndrome there. Overcome that, you compensate, you try to do [00:56:10] a lot more. Uh, and that’s probably why, uh, within Phillips, I [00:56:15] had such a massive, you know, range of exposure [00:56:20] that I could, uh, within one company. Because typically, for the amount of work that I have [00:56:25] done, you need to go to 2 or 3 different companies to be able to get that range of [00:56:30] exposure. Right. Yeah. But then in Philips, uh, I was lucky enough to be at the right time [00:56:35] and the right moment with the right people in order to be able to, you know, participate in [00:56:40] a lot more things.

Prav Solanki: But you create your own look, right? I mean, when I speak to [00:56:45] people about you, they say you’re an amazing leader, right? And you inspire people. And [00:56:50] as Guy Bellamy said a couple of occasions I mentioned your name. He will say she [00:56:55] is a force, right? That is it. She is a force, right?

Kiran Malviya: I don’t know if it’s a positive [00:57:00] thing or not.

Prav Solanki: It’s a it’s a very positive. It’s a very, very positive thing. Right. Because [00:57:05] it’s not how you say it. It’s not what you say. It’s how you say it. Right? And, um, so [00:57:10] you’ve you’ve become known or you’ve, you’ve, you’ve your career has [00:57:15] shifted from this person who got involved in marketing and events to [00:57:20] sales, figuring out all the bits and pieces, and then you naturally levitated [00:57:25] into sort of leadership positions. Right. How did that happen? At what point [00:57:30] during your career in Phillips, did you know that you were going to be a [00:57:35] leader and that you were good with people? And what does leadership actually [00:57:40] mean to you? What what would you say are the key elements to being a [00:57:45] good leader?

Kiran Malviya: Well, honestly, I still don’t consider myself to be a leader. [00:57:50] Leader. Yeah, I still feel that there’s a lot of work to be done for somebody to think [00:57:55] that you are just a leader, right? You’re never just a leader. Yeah, you’re really a [00:58:00] hands on employee. When you’re working in a company, whether it’s your own or it’s somebody [00:58:05] else’s. I think for me there were 2 or 3 turning points which pushed [00:58:10] me into becoming so pushy for, of course, so to say, when [00:58:15] I was, when I when I was asked to lead the sales operations function [00:58:20] for Philips India. That was when they had just undergone an audit, [00:58:25] and they were completely red in the sales process and 100% [00:58:30] manual, and they wanted somebody with a sales background and [00:58:35] a bit of a structured approach to set that entire function up for them. So [00:58:40] for me, that was a step back, because when they asked me to do [00:58:45] it, I felt as if I’m being asked to go out from the commercial function because, [00:58:50] you know, when you’re doing commercial, a back end function is considered to be a step back or a [00:58:55] demotion. So for me, it was in fact a big, you [00:59:00] know, blow to my, you know, a fast moving career, [00:59:05] so to say.

Kiran Malviya: But then I still took it. Well, I didn’t have a choice, but [00:59:10] I still took it as an 18 month assignment, hoping that in 18 months I’ll figure [00:59:15] my way out of this. So, uh, but but that those 18 months was [00:59:20] the most fulfilling part of my career because of a couple of reasons. Right? Because [00:59:25] that gave me an insight into how systems work. So I was able to roll [00:59:30] out Salesforce in Philips India, bringing an entire cpq, [00:59:35] you know, methodology and process, wrote down the policies for how a distributor [00:59:40] management should look like, what in the entire business transformation, [00:59:45] uh, you know, daily management boards and the agile methodology and all of that. [00:59:50] So so you imagine that all those back end stuff, which we consider as commercial sales [00:59:55] guys to be somebody in the office to do it, is so powerful Because [01:00:00] that’s something that makes companies capable to scale, right. [01:00:05] And that backbone that is required to make a company [01:00:10] successful is something that I could learn in those 18 months. And [01:00:15] the kind of people that I had on my team back then were people who are just punching orders day in [01:00:20] and day out. You can’t really expect them to create a strategy or think through and, you know, [01:00:25] give you a PowerPoint or whatever, right? So working with those guys, training the sales [01:00:30] guys on all these new change management, the processes, tools, etc., I think [01:00:35] was my turning point that pushed me towards so-called leadership.

Kiran Malviya: And the reason I [01:00:40] say that is because on an average, I believe around [01:00:45] 80 to 90% or more sales guys on the field have no idea [01:00:50] how systems work, what policies are. What does the you know, what does a [01:00:55] SAP system look like? What do you really need to do in order to, you know, [01:01:00] make sure that you are compliant as an organisation. Right. And to be able to have that [01:01:05] knowledge was my age. So when I finally entered the global arena [01:01:10] with the digital x ray business, that was something that kind of helped me [01:01:15] push my way into becoming responsible for the entire globe, for [01:01:20] digital x rays at some point in time. So I started with just one market because [01:01:25] they believed I only had experience in India. So yeah, you managed Japan for for now. Then [01:01:30] they added China to it, then they added Russia to it. And eventually, yeah, I ended up managing [01:01:35] the globe for that.

Prav Solanki: Amazing, amazing. And what would you say? I [01:01:40] know you also say they’re saying, well, you know, I [01:01:45] don’t consider myself a leader or whatever, but, but but you’ve you’ve held positions in leadership. [01:01:50] Right. And what do you think are the are the key skills or or [01:01:55] core Qualities of a good leader, right? Because. Because a good leader [01:02:00] will, I guess, inspire their team members, but also [01:02:05] get the best out of them and the most out of them. And you’ve already alluded to the fact [01:02:10] that, well, if you challenge them and allow them to do something off project or whatever, [01:02:15] right. But, but but what what is it about you that, that that you think makes you a [01:02:20] good leader or what are the qualities that have, um.

Kiran Malviya: You know, um, so [01:02:25] I, I try to learn something from [01:02:30] every person that touches my life at any point in time. Right. So I have this thing with [01:02:35] my daughter where whoever she meets or whoever I meet, we exchange notes [01:02:40] on what did we learn from this person, right. Whether it’s a good interaction or bad interaction. So [01:02:45] that kind of, uh, introspection, uh, gives me the ability to kind [01:02:50] of put into my subconscious mind what it is that I also want to hone at [01:02:55] some point in time. Right. And because of that, I believe I’ve learned a lot from the [01:03:00] leaders who have either taken a chance on me or who have pushed me, or who I have [01:03:05] looked up to throughout my life. Right. And so I still am very grateful to them and [01:03:10] I keep learning from them. Right. Mhm. So based on what I have learned from [01:03:15] people and what I have observed to be things that have proven to be successful for [01:03:20] my growth, I think that there are 2 or 3 things that I try to follow. Uh, [01:03:25] as a, as a, as a leader.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Kiran Malviya: One is to be able to create [01:03:30] a vision. I need to be able to create a vision for the team and [01:03:35] for the organisation around me on what good would look like. It’s my job. It’s my [01:03:40] duty, right? I cannot expect anybody to deliver on anything [01:03:45] if I don’t tell them. What are we trying to achieve? Right. So that’s for me one first [01:03:50] thing. Right. I cannot assume that they know it.

Prav Solanki: Can I ask you a quick question before we move on to the next [01:03:55] thing, which is where does that vision come from? Does that is that vision? Download it. It does. [01:04:00] Does that make sense? Does somebody tell you somebody above you tells you this is the vision. [01:04:05] Now go deliver it to your team. Or is that vision yours within [01:04:10] boundaries and guardrails?

Kiran Malviya: I think it is. It is a [01:04:15] mix of your understanding of what a company wants [01:04:20] to achieve and your understanding of [01:04:25] what is needed in the in the current, [01:04:30] let’s say, landscape of the market to create the guardrails, so to [01:04:35] say. Right. So nobody really tells you what the vision is. You need to be able to create it. And [01:04:40] I have to say I am good at it. I’m a bit of a visual person. So it comes [01:04:45] naturally to me. I can actually visualise things a little bit better. [01:04:50] So. Yeah. So so so once you have once I have created a vision [01:04:55] on what good would look like. It’s also about communicating what good would look [01:05:00] like to the people and clarifying what exactly is required from them. The second [01:05:05] element of of, of being able to lead properly is [01:05:10] letting people try and fail and try again. [01:05:15] Right. And that, I believe, is a is for me a [01:05:20] very, very important point because on one hand I’m tougher, [01:05:25] I’m tougher on results and I’m very tough on, uh, you know, uh, standards [01:05:30] and output and so on. But at the same time, I’m ready to take chances. [01:05:35] I mean, you have seen with Chris, you’ve seen with a couple of other people in strongman as well. [01:05:40] I mean, I think we believe in trying and failing and trying again and [01:05:45] that that that attitude is not just me. It’s also in some of the other [01:05:50] leaders that we have within strongman, and that really helps a lot.

Prav Solanki: Is [01:05:55] that a strongman thing or a Phillips thing or just a you thing? You know this [01:06:00] this this. Fail forward. Fail fast. This this I hear [01:06:05] it a lot from strongman people.

Kiran Malviya: Um, same. So I, I see that more in strongman. [01:06:10] Uh, I did not really see that a lot in Phillips. I did come across that a lot in India [01:06:15] in the Phillips leadership within India when I was a young leader. But that was also because [01:06:20] that phase of company within Phillips India was fast moving, scaling up, becoming [01:06:25] from number three to number one kind of an environment. So I do believe that if if [01:06:30] that stage, if a company is going through that stage, you probably need this a lot more. [01:06:35] And strongman is exactly in that stage where we we do want to expand and grow, right. Uh, [01:06:40] so it’s it’s probably a strongman thing or it’s probably a, you [01:06:45] know, stage of growth. Company thing? Exactly. Yeah. And then the third [01:06:50] thing really is authenticity. I think that is a very, very commonly [01:06:55] used word, but also not well understood, because authenticity doesn’t really mean [01:07:00] being transparent about everything. Not really. For me, authenticity is [01:07:05] really about, uh, you know, just being human. You [01:07:10] know, I have good days, and I have bad days. There are days when I am absolutely [01:07:15] happy and excited about work. And you bring me anything on that day, and [01:07:20] I’ll probably be, uh, you know, thinking with you and being very constructive and so on. [01:07:25] And there are days when I just don’t want to talk to anybody. So. And I have nothing to [01:07:30] hide. And my if, if I’m able to be authentic, uh, to the [01:07:35] people, then I’m, you know, the the facade is not there.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. [01:07:40]

Kiran Malviya: So they, they feel that it’s okay. Even I can have days like that. It’s it’s okay. Right? [01:07:45] So for me, authenticity plays a very, very big role in in being a [01:07:50] good leader. And yeah, other than that, I think the fourth topic [01:07:55] which which guy keeps referring to is, uh.

Prav Solanki: What is that? What do you think that is? [01:08:00]

Kiran Malviya: Well, I think I don’t take no for an answer. Uh, that’s [01:08:05] that’s, uh, less to do with leadership, more to do with [01:08:10] my personality type. Uh, yeah, I have, uh, I have come too far away. Uh, [01:08:15] if I had taken no for an answer, I probably wouldn’t have done, you know, 90% of the things [01:08:20] that I could do. So, yeah, I don’t take no for an answer.

Prav Solanki: And [01:08:25] so just tell me a little bit about the cultural differences [01:08:30] between Phillips and and Stroud and I, I spoke to I caught up with Rob about this [01:08:35] a couple of weeks ago on, on on the podcast that’s probably coming out next week. And, and he [01:08:40] talked talked a little bit about about the differences in the culture. They’re both [01:08:45] very, very positive experiences from both companies. And, you know, he he felt that [01:08:50] Philips really did help shape him as a human being. But just talk to me about what [01:08:55] your view on that is, what your lens is on, on the differences in culture between Philips [01:09:00] and Stralman. And then I want to get your I want to get your perspective of [01:09:05] what culture actually means.

Kiran Malviya: So, um, maybe [01:09:10] I talk about the two company cultures as I perceived it. [01:09:15] Yeah. And then maybe we can try to draw similarities or differences. I think that would be easier [01:09:20] for me. So at Philips, first of all, it’s a Dutch [01:09:25] company. And when it’s the Dutch company, it comes with its own, uh, importance of [01:09:30] work life balance and, uh, you know, a pace with which things happen [01:09:35] and an alignment approach. Right. So [01:09:40] at Philips, the the most important point or most important trait that people [01:09:45] value is the alignment for any decision. You [01:09:50] have to align realign with the [01:09:55] people who are involved before you actually go ahead and make a decision.

Prav Solanki: Okay. [01:10:00] Makes sense.

Kiran Malviya: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Kiran Malviya: And this is something to be taught. This [01:10:05] is not this doesn’t come naturally to people. Right. Because I mean, for me, for example, [01:10:10] when I was a young, not too experienced employee, if [01:10:15] I have made a business case or if I have made a pitch, I would [01:10:20] assume that if I’m walking into a room and making a kick ass pitch, it should be [01:10:25] accepted. Uh, you know, that’s the that’s the place where you’re actually [01:10:30] making a decision and having a conversation and concluding it, giving a go, no go, etc.. [01:10:35] No. You know, I learned the hard way that that room [01:10:40] is only a confirmation that everybody else is already on board or [01:10:45] not on board or whatever. So before you walk into that room, you exactly know who are the [01:10:50] guys who are in your favour, and you only pitch to the guys who are not completely bought yet. [01:10:55] And and that I put this thing into culture bucket [01:11:00] because this need for realignment, this need for, you know, [01:11:05] uh, having, having, uh, well prepared meetings [01:11:10] forces people to be prepared, forces people to be detail [01:11:15] oriented. Right. And that is something which is a deep seated [01:11:20] culture within Phillips. The flip side, or the disadvantage of this is it’s very slow, [01:11:25] right? It’s painstakingly slow in order.

Kiran Malviya: This this process takes time, right. So the decision [01:11:30] making can sometimes be really, really slow. Right. And that is the flip side of it [01:11:35] right now if we come to strongman strongman. As I said earlier, we [01:11:40] are a very ambitious, aggressive warrior. Kind of a company, right? So [01:11:45] we make decisions fast, we fail fast, we improve ourselves and we move on. [01:11:50] Right? If you have a bright idea, pitch it to the right people. You will be at least given [01:11:55] a permission to do a pilot. And if the pilot works, you can take it to the next step. Right. [01:12:00] So this particular culture of trying, failing, moving [01:12:05] on, I think is very, very useful when it comes to the speed with which we do things. Now, [01:12:10] the flip side of this is the alignment sometimes goes for a toss, right. [01:12:15] So you might see that in a matrix environment, not everybody is aware of everything [01:12:20] that’s happening across the organisation. So so you might you know, [01:12:25] and that can probably be covered up with our positive culture because [01:12:30] the culture of player learner, of believing in each other, of not going below the line. So [01:12:35] these these words and these methodologies that have been kind of, you know, uh, [01:12:40] put into.

Prav Solanki: Your.

Kiran Malviya: Start, pretty much infused into your system, kind of enables [01:12:45] you to not go below the line very easily.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Kiran Malviya: So, yeah, both [01:12:50] have flips and uh, uh, good and bads of it.

Prav Solanki: Pros and cons. Um, [01:12:55] so what does this play in live in? This is what I hear a lot. I see on social [01:13:00] media a lot is this player learner culture? Is this about failing? [01:13:05] Is this about just sort of, um, feeding from your peers and [01:13:10] your mentors and working together? This is about taking chances. What is this whole [01:13:15] player learner culture about? How would you how would you articulate that to somebody who knows nothing [01:13:20] about drama?

Kiran Malviya: I think it’s, uh. Well, it’s a it’s a it’s a well-established [01:13:25] methodology in the organisational behaviour domains. It [01:13:30] basically says that the opposite of player learner, which is basically lower. [01:13:35] So if you are if if you hear something or you come across something, you [01:13:40] have two options. Either you say, yeah, I know everything about this. So you behave in [01:13:45] that way wherein you are placing yourself superior to somebody because you know everything about [01:13:50] it and you stop actively listening versus you [01:13:55] switch your gear into becoming a player and learner where you’re [01:14:00] constantly saying, okay, even if I know stuff, I’m basically, you know, open to actively [01:14:05] listening and understanding, learning about it and then playing along with it. So it’s a [01:14:10] it’s a fundamental difference in the way that you react or you behave in [01:14:15] situations which are very easy to go. Tricky, [01:14:20] right.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. So as [01:14:25] you’ve progressed in your career, have you stepped back in [01:14:30] terms of the number of hours that you went because based on what you’ve just spoken about, like [01:14:35] getting two hours sleep at night during your studies, right? And then working [01:14:40] across all these different areas within Philips to work your way up. Right. [01:14:45] You don’t do that on an eight hour shift. I’m pretty confident about that. Right. [01:14:50] And even even at the Stralman DSO event where [01:14:55] I saw you, and even at the event in Barcelona, where [01:15:00] we knew Kieran was in the building, but nobody knew where she was because she [01:15:05] was working and then made an appearance to say hello and whatnot. [01:15:10] Right. And, and cropped up at the times when she was needed. Yeah. [01:15:15] How hard are you working right now? And what’s that look like throughout [01:15:20] your career? What sort of hours are you putting in?

Kiran Malviya: Um, I don’t count, honestly. [01:15:25]

Prav Solanki: I mean, I know you, I know, I know you don’t, right? And nobody counts, right?

Kiran Malviya: No, nothing. [01:15:30]

Prav Solanki: Paint a picture.

Kiran Malviya: Um, that’s [01:15:35] a tough one, because, uh. Well, I think I love what I [01:15:40] do. Uh, that makes it way more easy for me to not look at it as [01:15:45] work. Work? Yeah. Um, however, I do value downtime. [01:15:50] And I do respect the fact that family needs you, and your body needs you [01:15:55] and your friends need you, etc.. So I’m. I’m very religious [01:16:00] about taking my weekends. I do not work on weekends at all.

Prav Solanki: Brilliant.

Kiran Malviya: But [01:16:05] the Monday to Friday when I am, uh, on on working, it’s it’s in all [01:16:10] mode pretty much all the time. Uh, I do recognise, and my team [01:16:15] knows that very well. Initially when I just took over this role and they would [01:16:20] receive emails from me at odd hours and, uh, you know, yeah, they [01:16:25] would be confused on What’s going on? When does she escape? And [01:16:30] am I supposed to respond? And so on. But thankfully we we agreed on a way of working [01:16:35] with a new leader, a simulation exercise which basically enables you to also understand, [01:16:40] uh, how what the leadership expectations are and what your expectations [01:16:45] are and so on. So I think my team is quite well comfortable with my modus operandi [01:16:50] now. But I do see some people getting a little, uh, you know, uh, curious [01:16:55] about how does this go on. But but it’s it’s true for pretty much all, [01:17:00] uh, leaders that at least I have come across, uh, where, you know, you just [01:17:05] become so passionate about what you’re doing that it doesn’t feel like work anymore, you [01:17:10] know? So you. And especially in my job. Right. I meet so many [01:17:15] interesting people. I mean, I wouldn’t have met you if I wouldn’t be working. If I would [01:17:20] have been, uh, you know.

Prav Solanki: We wouldn’t have crossed paths, right? That’s for sure. Exactly. Um, but [01:17:25] but during all of this. Right. Obviously, there’s been a lot of positivity [01:17:30] during your career. Um, and you’re very positive about [01:17:35] the fact that you love what you do. It’s, you know, it’s inspiring. You get to inspire other [01:17:40] people and you get to do great things. Tell me about some of the darkest [01:17:45] moments during your career. Right. There must have been some moments where [01:17:50] maybe you hit rock bottom. It was really hard, and maybe it was a a [01:17:55] work life or a personal thing. Or perhaps there was [01:18:00] a project that really got you down. Was there have you had some really dark moments [01:18:05] and what were they during during your career? It can’t have all been sunshine and rainbows.

Kiran Malviya: Yeah, [01:18:10] but I honestly have. I [01:18:15] can’t really think of a dark moment, so to say. Of [01:18:20] course there are. Of course there are moments where you know [01:18:25] you either do not get the result that you expected or [01:18:30] you do not. Uh, you know, you’re not able to. You’re [01:18:35] not able to crack a certain personal problem or [01:18:40] you’re not able to, you know, run fast enough as you had expected, [01:18:45] etc.. But I haven’t really come across okay. So from a career perspective, [01:18:50] I don’t think I have yet come to a rock bottom or a [01:18:55] dark place ever. I have never. I have never had to look for [01:19:00] a job. I have never had to, you know, uh, take a step back in my [01:19:05] career and so on. Right. So that has thankfully, yet not come. Yeah. [01:19:10] But when it comes to the work that I do, the projects that I do, the people that I interact [01:19:15] with, I have had some tough moments. I have had an employee just not ready [01:19:20] to trust me. And I had no idea. How do I, you know.

Prav Solanki: Deal with.

Kiran Malviya: That? [01:19:25] Exactly how do I deal with that? How do I. And that was, for me, a very, [01:19:30] very difficult leadership challenge, so to say, because, uh, you know, when you are a woman [01:19:35] leader, you dance between super strong and [01:19:40] super weak moments. You know, there’s hardly anything in the [01:19:45] middle in, in women leadership, unfortunately, which I believe should not be [01:19:50] the case and I hope will not be the case going forward for for the upcoming, uh, [01:19:55] women.

Prav Solanki: Do you think it’s harder to be a woman leader?

Kiran Malviya: I think [01:20:00] it is not super easy. Uh, [01:20:05] but it’s not. It’s not too hard either. It’s not [01:20:10] super easy. But you have to. And why I say that is you. You have to accept [01:20:15] that you have these styles which are different from a traditional male leadership [01:20:20] style. Right. Yeah. You. If if you accept that, then it’s fine. [01:20:25] I mean, we are we are as women leaders, uh, sometimes very, [01:20:30] very strong. Strong, opinionated, uh, expecting, uh, you [01:20:35] know, high standards and so on a little bit too much more than male leaders. And [01:20:40] we also have our limitations around, you know, intolerance [01:20:45] for certain behaviours and so on. So I think as long as we [01:20:50] make peace with that and the people around us have made peace with that, uh, it’s all good.

Prav Solanki: And [01:20:55] the people around you making peace with that. Have you, have you ever had a situation where, as a female [01:21:00] leader by a male, that you felt that there’s [01:21:05] been a prejudice or a challenge from your perspective?

Kiran Malviya: Yeah, [01:21:10] I mean, I was I was working in India, right? And. Yeah, [01:21:15] uh, I told you I was the only Only female. Female. The entire industry? [01:21:20] Yeah. And a part of why I was given that back end role was [01:21:25] also because I was a woman. And, you know, women are better suited in office roles [01:21:30] and so on. Right. I think that happens all the time. I think there is this prejudice [01:21:35] around. Females cannot do commercial leadership roles that exist [01:21:40] in males. Uh, male leaders mindset. Right. You can’t really fight [01:21:45] it too much because it’s a fact. There aren’t many women in the commercial [01:21:50] leadership roles across industries. But at the same time, [01:21:55] you can’t really be too touchy picky about, you know, somebody making a [01:22:00] comment like that or somebody, you know, living on that prejudice, etc.. It does hurt. [01:22:05] It does pinch. I mean, you spent two days mulling over it and then you basically just, [01:22:10] you know.

Prav Solanki: Crack.

Kiran Malviya: On. Exactly. So you either confront and clarify [01:22:15] or you just, you know, forget it and let it go. But that’s true with pretty much [01:22:20] all, all biases, right? I mean, as of as an Indian I’m leading [01:22:25] EMEA. Right. So it’s it’s quite a, quite a you know, [01:22:30] I don’t speak any of the European languages and, but I speak five Indian languages. [01:22:35] It doesn’t help me here. Right. But I think beyond the point as [01:22:40] I said. Right. If you are curious, if you are, if you are culturally oriented enough [01:22:45] to accept the differences, I think you you survive and [01:22:50] thrive. In fact.

Prav Solanki: What is the future of your career look like? [01:22:55] And I know you’ve not. You’ve not been at strawman for a long time. Um, but but what what [01:23:00] is the future of your career look like?

Kiran Malviya: Why? I, I see myself in strong [01:23:05] and developing and growing with the company. Uh, I think I’m completely [01:23:10] convinced with the vision. I think that’s what I signed up for, uh, I also, [01:23:15] uh, completely, you know, respect the leadership that we have at Strom and the [01:23:20] especially the leadership values that are strong and, uh, you know, [01:23:25] values is is very, very different. You know, even if you [01:23:30] have done very well in the what, the how is equally important. [01:23:35] And for me, that that’s a place where I would want to be. Right. Uh, [01:23:40] plus, I mean, uh, there’s just so much fabulous work that we are doing. Dentistry [01:23:45] is just, uh, you know, at a, at a juncture where we are going to unlock [01:23:50] a lot of, uh, digital transformation, integrated ecosystem. You [01:23:55] know, taking, uh, a lot of pressure out from the clinicians and the staff using [01:24:00] AI and so on. So if there is any place to be in at this point in dentistry, [01:24:05] that’s strong. And and so I don’t see myself, uh, yeah. Working with strongman, [01:24:10] uh, and and growing with strong.

Prav Solanki: And I see a lot of what what [01:24:15] you spoke about today about the culture of strawman and the the fast decision making. [01:24:20] So I’ve been on the other end where I’ve worked with Phillips and I’ve [01:24:25] worked with Stroman and I’ve worked with all the corporates. Right. There is nobody that makes decisions [01:24:30] as fast as strawman does. And it’s and it’s ridiculous. Like [01:24:35] to the point it would take a three man dental practice longer to make the same decision as [01:24:40] it does with strawman. Right. And and I find it insane and crazy, but some of my [01:24:45] best work and some of my most exciting projects that I’ve worked on have been with [01:24:50] strawman because of that.

Kiran Malviya: That is that is so good to hear because, [01:24:55] you know, as an outsider, you have probably experienced this, uh, [01:25:00] firsthand.

Prav Solanki: It’s game changing, right? It’s absolutely game changing. And, and, [01:25:05] and the other piece is the culture piece, right? Which is whoever I speak [01:25:10] to, and I mentioned this during, um, Rob’s podcast as [01:25:15] well, is that when I ask somebody, what does strawman mean to you? [01:25:20] Yeah, family is the most common word that comes out right. [01:25:25] Um, which speaks volumes about culture. Right? Does that resonate with you straight [01:25:30] away?

Kiran Malviya: Yeah, absolutely. I think, uh, you know what is family, [01:25:35] right? You you always say that, you know, family is where you feel [01:25:40] home.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Kiran Malviya: It doesn’t really have to be your blood relationships. [01:25:45] Yeah. But, uh, for me, I think, uh, that’s the kind of environment [01:25:50] that strongman wants to create.

Prav Solanki: Mhm.

Kiran Malviya: So yeah I think I agree. [01:25:55] We generally never say welcome to the team. We always say welcome to the family.

Prav Solanki: So yeah. [01:26:00] And what was the what was the reason for the transition from Philips to Stram. And what brought that [01:26:05] on. Were you headhunted. Were you you had no idea.

Kiran Malviya: In fact, I never [01:26:10] wanted to go back to dentistry when I was, uh, doing very well at Philips. Right? I thought, [01:26:15] okay, I have moved on from dentistry. It’s so far away. It’s like, you know, look at cardiology. [01:26:20] Look at radiology. But when I was headhunted by Sabina, she basically [01:26:25] said, just talk to the leader once. That’s it. So when I spoke to Rama, uh, [01:26:30] who was my, uh, hiring manager and my. And my, uh, leader when I joined. [01:26:35] Yeah, she showed me one slide, and that slide carried her vision [01:26:40] on where she wants to take enterprise solutions. And that’s it. I was sold on that idea. [01:26:45] I was like, I did not have a job description. I did not know what I’m going to join then do. [01:26:50] Uh, but I just. Yeah. Joined it.

Prav Solanki: Wow. And [01:26:55] looking back now, over your career, what would you advise your [01:27:00] younger self that that 23 year old looking back now, Would [01:27:05] you change anything during that career?

Kiran Malviya: Honestly? Well, [01:27:10] I won’t change anything because, you know, I have come to believe that [01:27:15] is despite all the struggles that I had in my early married life, [01:27:20] despite of the, you know, challenges that I had as a establishing [01:27:25] as a sales person within Philips. I, I am [01:27:30] what I am because of the experiences that I have had in my life. Right? So I would definitely [01:27:35] not change anything, but I would definitely ask my younger self [01:27:40] to have the courage to speak up. Always. I think that is [01:27:45] something that I learnt a little later. Mhm. Uh, I would have probably [01:27:50] uh spoke up. There is a difference between speaking up and respecting. [01:27:55] Just because you’re speaking up to people above your pay [01:28:00] grade or above your, you know, age Each grade doesn’t necessarily [01:28:05] mean that you’re disrespecting them.

Prav Solanki: It’s a difference.

Kiran Malviya: And that’s something that I would [01:28:10] say I would have probably done better.

Prav Solanki: I spoke up sooner. [01:28:15]

Kiran Malviya: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: And interestingly, the the interactions [01:28:20] and the conversations we’ve had, right. I’ve learned more in just the tiny little exchanges. Right. [01:28:25] So, um, I remember we were stood in that room. I know, I know, you know what [01:28:30] I’m going to ask you now. And I said, tell me about the tattoos.

Kiran Malviya: Yeah. [01:28:35]

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Um, and you told me a little story about what the tattoos [01:28:40] were and what they mean. And somebody once told me that every tattoo has [01:28:45] a story behind it. Yeah. And I think you’ve told us a lot of the story. [01:28:50] Right? But just just just just tell us what the tattoos are and [01:28:55] what that signifies and what that means to you.

Kiran Malviya: Well, I have two tattoos. One is [01:29:00] on my wrist, which is basically a queen of hearts, and this [01:29:05] one is, uh, uh, selected by my daughter, uh, because she believes that it [01:29:10] signifies the way that I do my things. Right. Uh, not only that, I am [01:29:15] a wife, a lover, a mother and everything, but she says that [01:29:20] the way that you do your things is is significant. Is is is what they start [01:29:25] to basically say. Because, um, I never [01:29:30] have conflict with anybody. I always have my words to get what [01:29:35] I want to do, and I have my way around it. So it’s basically even if [01:29:40] I get what I want, the other person feels that they are permitting me to do what I have to do. [01:29:45] So, you know, the skill of convincing somebody [01:29:50] in that way, she believes, is a is a unique thing. And that’s why she asked me [01:29:55] to put this one. And the other one is basically, uh, says freeboard, God. And [01:30:00] that is.

Prav Solanki: Because on your shoulder.

Kiran Malviya: Right shoulder. Yeah. And that one, [01:30:05] I think is more because of the upbringing that I had. I was [01:30:10] always I felt or I still feel that as human [01:30:15] beings we are caged either to society [01:30:20] or to family or to duties, you know, or to situations, [01:30:25] etc. but your soul is really free. And as long as you are able to manage [01:30:30] the two and you know, know that your soul is still free of everything else. I [01:30:35] think that’s what I want to carry with me. I want to remind myself that I my soul [01:30:40] is free. I’m a free bird in my mind here, irrespective of the you [01:30:45] know, what is expected of me and situations around me.

Prav Solanki: It’s been a really [01:30:50] interesting perspective that that that the free soul and [01:30:55] and also the piece that you say about the Queen of hearts where you’ve spoken about getting what you [01:31:00] want, but going about it in the most respectful way in [01:31:05] which you can write. Because I’ve spoken to. I spoke to many people in the situation [01:31:10] that you found yourself in, living in an extended family. Okay. Not [01:31:15] necessarily. Not necessarily. That being the the ideal situation [01:31:20] for you, but living with it, blooming where you’re planted. [01:31:25] Right. Accepting it, but knowing that some way, shape [01:31:30] or form, I’ll get to where I want to be. It might just take me a little bit of time, right. And just [01:31:35] accepting that in the moment where it is. Um, and, and I’ve not come [01:31:40] across anyone who hasn’t actually said, screw this. I’m in this place. I [01:31:45] don’t want to stay with you. My in-laws are. Do you see what I mean? Like like they end up in that [01:31:50] situation. And actually, do you know what? We’re not just talking India here, right? Yeah. I’ve got friends [01:31:55] who are dentists, male friends who are dentists. Who are living with their extended [01:32:00] family. Their wives are telling them they’re not happy. And they are scared [01:32:05] to tell their parents that the best thing for everyone’s relationship is to move out. [01:32:10] And those people listening to this podcast know exactly who they are. Right. Yeah. And, and [01:32:15] and actually, you’ve taken a complete U-turn on that situation and [01:32:20] you’ve said, hey, I’m going to accept this. I’m not going to respect it. I’m still going to get where I want to get. Don’t [01:32:25] you worry about that. Right. I’m confident in that piece, but I’ll just figure it out another way [01:32:30] without conflict. And I think that’s really, really cool, right? And your current [01:32:35] situation couldn’t be any further from the position you started in. Right. [01:32:40] So just tell us about that. Because I found that really, really interesting when [01:32:45] we spoke.

Kiran Malviya: Well, you mean the current personal situation? [01:32:50]

Prav Solanki: Absolutely.

Kiran Malviya: Oh, absolutely. Um, well, when I moved to Netherlands. [01:32:55] I live in Amsterdam now, and when I moved to Netherlands around six and a half [01:33:00] years back, my husband moved with me. Uh, so me and my husband and [01:33:05] my daughter, we moved for Philips, and then we had big [01:33:10] dreams and big hopes of, uh, you know, exploring the other side of the world. Uh, and [01:33:15] we thought we will be able to buy a dental practice in Netherlands and run it while [01:33:20] learning the language, etc., so that, you know, everything is sorted. [01:33:25] When we came in here, we realised that in order to even buy a dental practice, you needed to [01:33:30] learn professional level Dutch uh, in order to register in something called a big registry. [01:33:35] And that takes around 4 or 5 years. And then if you want to practice, [01:33:40] you need to also, uh, give exams in Dutch for all [01:33:45] the, uh, you know, subjects. Now, my husband, he had successful practices back [01:33:50] home in India, a well, running business, and he lands here for the wife’s career [01:33:55] and then finds himself in this dilemma where his personal life is basically [01:34:00] identity or whatever professional life is, is taking [01:34:05] a toss. He’s still learning the language, and my career has taken off so [01:34:10] well that it’s like skyrocketing and best place to be in, right? So we are in this place where, uh, [01:34:15] yeah, it’s it’s not a win win situation, right? And then, uh, in that first [01:34:20] year of being here, Covid hit and, uh, you know, uh, we realised [01:34:25] that if we wanted to be one, uh, happy, happy people for [01:34:30] a longer time, if we wanted to be a happy parents and do our duties well, [01:34:35] we first needed to be individually successful as well.

Kiran Malviya: And so we [01:34:40] took a call and he went back to India. Uh, and he lives now in Delhi. And he’s running [01:34:45] the practices. And I continue to stay here with my daughter also because we wanted her to have, [01:34:50] uh, you know. Get our education here. Uh, and we meet, uh, every [01:34:55] eight weeks. So we did a lot of, uh, you know, uh, [01:35:00] trial and error. Uh, and we decided that if it’s more than eight weeks, [01:35:05] then we get cranky. And if it’s less than eight weeks, then it’s too soon to watch [01:35:10] too much. Yeah. So we meet every eight weeks, and that’s kind of the perfect, uh, you know, [01:35:15] for us. Uh, it’s not always easy. It’s, uh, starting to get more difficult now [01:35:20] that our daughter has moved out. Um, but, yeah, so far, it has worked perfectly [01:35:25] well. And, uh, we are also, I think, one thing that has worked very [01:35:30] well in our favour, which we were very scared of, was when we moved, our daughter was [01:35:35] a teenager. Yeah. And we weren’t sure what impact will have. Will the [01:35:40] daughter father daughter relationship have. Mhm. And I think that turned out to be [01:35:45] amazing because now for her the dad is the pillar of strength to [01:35:50] go to whenever she screws up in life. And then mom, is this, you know, lovey [01:35:55] dovey person teddy bear. Or she can come to every day. Yeah, I think it ended up to be [01:36:00] super good ultimately.

Prav Solanki: And it couldn’t be further from where you started, right? [01:36:05] That’s what blew my mind. That’s what really blew my mind. Right? Because, you know, [01:36:10] some people, you know, convention tells us the relationship should be like this. You both live [01:36:15] under one roof. You see each other every day. You share a family meal together. You all [01:36:20] sit down. Do you know what I mean? You piss each other off and you have some arguments, and then you kiss and make [01:36:25] up. And that’s what relationships are about, right?

Kiran Malviya: Exactly. And that’s the thing, right? I [01:36:30] mean, we have made so many decisions in our lives which are so [01:36:35] not ordinary, not traditional. Right. We we going [01:36:40] and studying in full time MBA with a seven year old child. Uh, me taking up a job [01:36:45] in Delhi, uprooting my husband from his place of work and taking him [01:36:50] to become unemployed again, and then again uprooting him from India and bringing [01:36:55] him here, etc. there was a lot of times when his family basically [01:37:00] kept wondering, what is he doing? Why is he, you know, there is a phrase in [01:37:05] India where, you know, you basically are just following your wife around and it’s [01:37:10] not a very positive phrase. So there were times when he when the [01:37:15] poor thing, he, he, he did face all these things also from, uh, you know, very close [01:37:20] people. But but that’s the thing, right? We have been we have just stayed [01:37:25] put. We would never, you know, speak against anybody. No need to prove [01:37:30] anything to anyone with words. Right. Our actions and our success and what we have [01:37:35] been able to do speaks. And our daughter, she’s a yeah, she’s a [01:37:40] successful project for us because whenever she’s speaking and and and [01:37:45] she’s presenting and she’s a performer. She dances in the same. Okay. [01:37:50] And she composes her own music. Uh, so whenever she is basically out there, [01:37:55] you know, in a family, how your child has turned out to be [01:38:00] is kind of a testament of how you have been as a parent, whether you’ve done a good job [01:38:05] or not.

Kiran Malviya: Because whenever we did all these decisions, the first thing that came to people’s mind [01:38:10] was what will happen to the child? What kind of value system would you give to the child [01:38:15] if you are, you know, not following the societal norms and so on. When we look at [01:38:20] her and the way that she’s turned out to be so far, I think it’s a [01:38:25] testament in itself. We don’t really need to explain ourselves anymore. You know, [01:38:30] in fact, there are so many people who get inspired by this kind of thing that I’m amazed because [01:38:35] there’s so many people who face this situation today where the girl gets a job [01:38:40] somewhere, the boy gets a job somewhere else. How do we manage life? We have taken [01:38:45] a plunge in getting married. Having the child. What next? Should we compromise on our career? [01:38:50] Or should we just, you know, chase the dreams? What happens to the family? [01:38:55] You know, I believe that. I strongly believe that if you have a clear communication [01:39:00] and you have a belief that you want to make it work, it [01:39:05] will work. You can have it all, you know. There’s no reason why you cannot. [01:39:10] So yeah.

Prav Solanki: I think I think it is really inspiring. [01:39:15] Right. And, you know, I want to hear what your definition of success is first [01:39:20] before I ask the next question. But if you have to define success in your world, in [01:39:25] your world, what does it mean?

Kiran Malviya: I [01:39:30] think it starts with having a loving family. I [01:39:35] have well wishes from my family, which for me is that they’re happy. [01:39:40] And they are there proud of what we have done with our life in general. For me, that’s success. [01:39:45] Number one, I think the second definition, the second piece [01:39:50] of a successful life for me, is also the fact [01:39:55] that I have been able to make an impact wherever [01:40:00] I have been, whether it is to the company or numbers, or it is to the people [01:40:05] around me, or it is to a structure, a process, a thing. Right? [01:40:10] So making an impact in general for me is also success in whatever capacity I have been. [01:40:15] I believe that is also success to me. And three, I think this realisation, [01:40:20] the self realisation that I want to experience the joy of giving. [01:40:25] You know that also for me doesn’t really come to everyone, [01:40:30] but does come to people at some stage of their life. And and for me, if that [01:40:35] is the realisation that has come to me, I do feel that I’m successful in that sense. [01:40:40]

Prav Solanki: Mhm. See, for me when [01:40:45] I hear you talk about your daughter, you know that that’s where I see all your success. [01:40:50] Yeah. Because of the non-conventional dynamics [01:40:55] that you have navigated through. Right. Shifting around [01:41:00] with without father family distance, all the rest of it. [01:41:05] Yeah.

Kiran Malviya: But but that’s not my success.

Prav Solanki: No, no. It it’s [01:41:10] it’s it’s the it’s the product of their upbringing, right? Yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s [01:41:15] the environment she’s been nurtured in. Right. Every little juncture that you came across. You [01:41:20] asked yourself your question, right? What would happen in this situation? Right. What would the impact on her [01:41:25] and and and the other thing I think for me is when all is said and done and we’re old. [01:41:30] When we get to that stage. Right. What [01:41:35] do our parents one. What do our grandparents want? What’s the [01:41:40] one thing they want?

Kiran Malviya: Want us to be happy?

Prav Solanki: For us to be happy a more time with [01:41:45] us?

Kiran Malviya: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. And if you get to a point. And this is where. Where I [01:41:50] see when I see successful people and I’m not talking about work. I’m not talking [01:41:55] about careers making zeros on the end of bank balances and all of that. Because when [01:42:00] all is said and done and we get to that age, I see successful [01:42:05] people as the ones who are walking around hand in hand with their daughters. [01:42:10]

Kiran Malviya: Absolutely. I think you know about my daughter. It’s [01:42:15] all her. Honestly, the amount of changes that she’s gone through, [01:42:20] both with the like. When I was doing MBA, she was with her father and my parents, and [01:42:25] then she was with me here and so on. Right with the amount of changes that she’s gone through, [01:42:30] it’s her resilience that has, you know, helped her. It’s it’s [01:42:35] it’s all horror. I think so I would not want to take away that as my, [01:42:40] uh, you.

Prav Solanki: Know, you’re not taking anything away. You’ve got a great relationship with your daughter, [01:42:45] right?

Kiran Malviya: Well, absolutely. She’s my life.

Prav Solanki: And she’s your life. You speak to her regularly.

Kiran Malviya: She’s [01:42:50] yours every single day.

Prav Solanki: And you compare notes about people you meet.

Kiran Malviya: Absolutely. [01:42:55] We have something. I mean, I have constantly been in touch with her throughout. Whether I was [01:43:00] around or not. I would write letters, hide them at places for her to find. [01:43:05] I would, uh, you we would go for dates and we would have questions that are supposed [01:43:10] to be discussed on dates. So we are very heavy on, uh, you know, conversations because [01:43:15] I, I, I like to write and, uh, I stop when [01:43:20] I’m travelling and I’m not, you know, and when that scarcity of time [01:43:25] and so on, and she’s the one who pushes me to write. So I think in general, she, [01:43:30] she in fact, recently on a mother’s day, this Mother’s Day. Actually, the gift that she [01:43:35] gave me was, uh, she took me to a cafe, and [01:43:40] that place was called, uh, offline [01:43:45] cafe or something like that. Okay. And she had prepared a list of questions [01:43:50] to ponder. And you basically go and sit there. And she said, and questions were like, [01:43:55] um, you know, very interesting. What does silence speak? You [01:44:00] know, deep questions, right? Deep philosophical questions. And she basically forced me to think about [01:44:05] those, right about those and so on. You know, so she she really knows [01:44:10] what to do with me in order to bring me [01:44:15] back on track whenever I am a little down or whatever. So, yeah, as [01:44:20] much as I have parented her, she is parenting me. I have to say it’s beautiful.

Prav Solanki: Absolutely [01:44:25] beautiful to hear that. Right. And that’s and that’s your relationship, right? I know you say it’s all her, [01:44:30] but but, but as a team, you’ve. You’ve created her, right? You’ve put her in those situations. [01:44:35] You could have gone off and done your NBA and know stayed in touch. Right? You could have just got stuck into [01:44:40] your work and not had the time. Right. And it’s that whole piece about being present and being there [01:44:45] because you’ve got 100. And one of the distractions that I feel anyway in [01:44:50] my world is a measure of success, right? Yeah.

Kiran Malviya: Because before getting married, I wanted [01:44:55] a daughter. I wanted a child. You know that that badly? I wanted to be a parent, [01:45:00] you know? So I did not have in my mind that I want to get married. But I did have [01:45:05] in my mind that I wanted to become a child. Yeah. You know, so I think for me, that is [01:45:10] one thing, which was my dream, that that I have fulfilled properly.

Prav Solanki: It’s [01:45:15] amazing. Um, Kieran imagined is your last [01:45:20] day on this planet and your daughter’s next to you, [01:45:25] and you have to leave this world giving her three pieces of [01:45:30] your wisdom. What would they be?

Kiran Malviya: I [01:45:35] think it’s, uh, it’s it’s very, very clear for [01:45:40] me. Uh, because that’s something that I also tell her, uh, all the time. Be [01:45:45] a good human being. Be. Could be good to be good, right? Don’t. There’s no point [01:45:50] in, uh, your success getting money, etc., if you have, if [01:45:55] hurt, uh, people a lot. Right. So. So be good. Be a good human [01:46:00] being in general.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Kiran Malviya: I think the second thing that I would tell her is to live, be [01:46:05] impulsive, live. Do what you want to do. You know, it’s, uh, don’t [01:46:10] fret over a submission. Uh, you know, uh, proving [01:46:15] yourself at work or whatever. Just live. If you feel like it, just do it right. [01:46:20] And the third thing I would tell her is it’s [01:46:25] more of a saying or a or a phrase that I like to, you [01:46:30] know, go by. It’s a little bit deeper, but, uh, that’s something [01:46:35] that I really, really feel and hope that she goes by in her life [01:46:40] is to, you know. For [01:46:45] the inner circle, take that extra mile.

Prav Solanki: Um.

Kiran Malviya: You [01:46:50] know, so first, be very careful in whom you bring to your inner circle. [01:46:55] Yeah. And once they are in your inner circle, take that extra mile. So [01:47:00] that’s very, very important.

Prav Solanki: Beautiful, beautiful. [01:47:05] Karen, how would you like to be remembered? Kieran was [01:47:10] completely sentence.

Kiran Malviya: Um. [01:47:15] Full [01:47:20] of life.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. [01:47:25] I [01:47:30] like that. I’ve got a final question for you, Kieran. Fantasy [01:47:35] dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive, [01:47:40] who would they be?

Kiran Malviya: You know, for me, stories [01:47:45] and conversations are very, very important, right? So for [01:47:50] me, of of a dinner party or fantasy dinner party would be successful. [01:47:55] If I have really good debates and really good conversations [01:48:00] stored during during the dinner. Right. So I would say I [01:48:05] would call, uh, my all time favourite Mahathi. Yeah. [01:48:10] Lord Shiva basically.

Prav Solanki: Mhm.

Kiran Malviya: And then I would have, uh.

Prav Solanki: You [01:48:15] know, religious though, right?

[TRANSITION]: No.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Kiran Malviya: I’m not. [01:48:20]

Prav Solanki: But but you know, you have a good conversation, right?

Kiran Malviya: Yes. Exactly. Yeah. [01:48:25] Uh, then I would I would probably [01:48:30] want to have, um, a rebel. Somebody who [01:48:35] has always rebelled in their life, probably a woman [01:48:40] who has always rebelled but has been successful. You know, somebody like [01:48:45] a Princess Diana, for example. Mhm. Because then she comes with, uh, you [01:48:50] know, she’s she comes with class, she comes with, uh, a different kind of an [01:48:55] approach towards life. And I think thirdly, I would want a writer [01:49:00] of my choice, uh, probably somebody like, uh, you know, Amitav [01:49:05] Ghosh, uh, because I, I really, really enjoy what he writes.

[TRANSITION]: Um. [01:49:10]

Kiran Malviya: Yeah, that would probably make a good conversation. Conversation? [01:49:15]

Prav Solanki: Yeah. That’s wonderful. Kiara just leaves me to say thank you so much for being [01:49:20] so open today discussing things with such depth and openness. [01:49:25] At the beginning of this conversation, I always ask guests, are [01:49:30] there any no go topics, anything that you don’t want to discuss? Friends, [01:49:35] family, you know, personal business, areas [01:49:40] of work that you don’t want to discuss? And Karin, you just said, I’m an open book. [01:49:45] Let’s just go for it. And I just want to say thank you for that, because not everyone does [01:49:50] that. And I think it’s come through in this conversation.

Kiran Malviya: Thank you so much [01:49:55] also for, for for this opportunity, I think when I met you, you are a natural [01:50:00] conversationalist. So it’s, uh, it’s it’s very, uh, understandable that you are doing this, [01:50:05] uh, you know, this job that you’re doing.

Prav Solanki: What’s interesting there, [01:50:10] Kiran, is that the conversations that you have with people and and I actually got this from [01:50:15] Rob, and I’ve referred to Rob a couple of times. Right? It’s all about the energy. It’s [01:50:20] all about the energy. So if the energy is balanced between [01:50:25] two human beings, yes, you can be a natural conversation. Believe it or [01:50:30] not, you and I can be in a room with somebody. I can meet them. We can say three words to each of them, [01:50:35] and I can’t get anything else out. Right, because the energy isn’t there, right? [01:50:40] So I think it’s there’s a lot, a lot to do with it that the energy in the [01:50:45] room or that you create. I think that’s really.

Kiran Malviya: But it’s also genuine [01:50:50] interest. Right. I have seen you and I’ve seen you interact with people. Right. And and what [01:50:55] I’m really appreciative is you do have genuine interest in people and people’s [01:51:00] stories, right?

Prav Solanki: So I’m really curious. Yeah.

Kiran Malviya: For sure that that makes you, makes you, [01:51:05] makes it so easy to have a conversation with you and [01:51:10] just open up with you. You. That’s a skill. I think that’s not very common. I have to [01:51:15] say it’s a it’s it’s a uh, it’s, uh, I think your your, your children [01:51:20] also must be really, really lucky to have you. Then [01:51:25] they feel comfortable. They have somebody to talk to that makes so much of a difference. Right.

Prav Solanki: So [01:51:30] yeah. And I think I think the thing with kids is, is really, you know, for me [01:51:35] allowing them to be themselves and, and we, [01:51:40] we try really, really hard not to impose [01:51:45] our. Stereotypes [01:51:50] and opinions. Even even with my ten year old [01:51:55] now she’ll come out with things. She’ll tell me things that [01:52:00] she won’t tell my wife. Uh, but once a week I take her to dance class and she [01:52:05] does this hip hop R&B dance, and she loves it. Okay. Right. I was like, [01:52:10] what happened to my little girl? Right? And. And so I take her every week and all they’re watching, [01:52:15] but on the drive down the drive back, she’ll tell me things that she won’t tell [01:52:20] anyone.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Kiran Malviya: Yeah. I’m not surprised at all. Bravo.

Prav Solanki: And. [01:52:25] And you know what? Although I go back and report someone, we have this thing where [01:52:30] we can’t break that trust. Right. Because she has this [01:52:35] sort of thing that she can tell me. And you know what? I think it’s so special when a [01:52:40] child will open up to you and tell you things that perhaps, you know, [01:52:45] maybe, maybe they went up. They wouldn’t be the sort of things I’d share with my parents, that’s for sure. [01:52:50] Do you know what I mean? Um, so, you know, with with with the kids is. It’s [01:52:55] a tough balance, right? But I would rather have somebody who rebels, [01:53:00] goes against my values and what I believe, but [01:53:05] will happily tell me that they’re doing it. Do you know what I mean?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:53:10]

Prav Solanki: It’s tough. It’s tough.

Kiran Malviya: The space to explore and then feel comfortable about it. [01:53:15] I think that’s such a powerful gift that you can give to your child. Really?

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Yeah. And confidence. [01:53:20] Yeah. Kieran. Thank you.

Kiran Malviya: Thank you so much. And. Yeah. [01:53:25] I’ll see you soon.

[TRANSITION]: See you soon.

Kiran Malviya: Bye.

[VOICE]: This [01:53:30] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one [01:53:35] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:53:40] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:53:45] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to.

Prav Solanki: The whole thing. And just [01:53:50] a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say [01:53:55] and what our guests had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you [01:54:00] did get some value out of it, think about subscribing, and if you would share [01:54:05] this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks. [01:54:10]

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] Enlightened Online Training.com to understand how to assess a case quickly. How to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time whitening Underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you [00:00:30] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:40] Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Chris O’Connor onto [00:00:45] the podcast. Chris is a dentist and latterly a dental supplier, [00:00:50] developer of dental products and an academic at one point. Chris. Yeah, um, [00:00:55] who comes from Newcastle? Did you grow up in Newcastle as well?

Chris O’Connor: No, I’m from Sheffield, but [00:01:00] I went up at 18 to do my training and I’ve not moved since, so [00:01:05] I feel fairly, fairly embedded in the North-East.

Payman Langroudi: Pleasure to have you, buddy. I mean, thanks for coming all [00:01:10] the way from Newcastle just for this.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, it’s a pretty good train. I know you Southerners don’t come up much, but we [00:01:15] don’t mind travelling.

Payman Langroudi: I tend to fly to Newcastle, so that’s a bit too far. Great [00:01:20] town though. So did you study there as well?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, so I studied. My wife was in my year. [00:01:25] We kind of, you know, we got together and then I did move back to Sheffield briefly, [00:01:30] which was a bit ill fated, which I could probably talk about later, but then went back there. [00:01:35] Then I worked at the dental hospital for maybe eight years, and then now the business is [00:01:40] kind of really embedded there and my referral network, so I can’t see us moving.

Payman Langroudi: You’re teaching in the dental hospital [00:01:45] for eight years?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, I was a clinical academic there, so I was doing a PhD. I did [00:01:50] like I used to run clinical trials, um, and I used to teach undergrads, postgrad master’s students. [00:01:55] Um, and, yeah, did that for quite a long period until around Covid. And um, [00:02:00] anyway, various things and then I left and set up incidental around that time. [00:02:05]

Payman Langroudi: So what was your sort of research topic?

Chris O’Connor: So we yeah, we were working on, um, [00:02:10] it was sponsored by three M Bentham now. And it was a they [00:02:15] have, you know, like the temporary crowns, they have that like kind of jelly stage and you place them. It was like a, [00:02:20] it designed to be a permanent version of those. So they’d increase the filler and you would like, fit [00:02:25] it um chair side. So no lab involved. And then you would um, cement [00:02:30] it with the stem. And then it was to be like a permanent crown rather than a temporary. [00:02:35] Um, so we ran like a clinical trial with, with those, like a small, you know, 20 patients followed [00:02:40] them up for a couple of years. Um, unfortunately, they didn’t, um, they didn’t do that well. So they, [00:02:45] uh, maybe you would imagine, but the the composite, just with a [00:02:50] long lever arm of a crown, it flexes too much and you get d bones. Uh, which is why. Yeah, I would go [00:02:55] for a stiffer material. If anyone’s thinking of choosing their material of choice for posterior units.

Payman Langroudi: Tell [00:03:00] me about that world, because I’ve done three clinical trials with enlighten, [00:03:05] and I found it baffling the way that that world works. [00:03:10] It’s, you know, my experience of it was that sometimes I [00:03:15] wanted the actual answer to an actual question, and the researcher would [00:03:20] give me what he thought I wanted, which was like, he ran, I don’t know, six different [00:03:25] ways of doing it, and then showed me the one that suited my product best. I [00:03:30] was amazed because I thought, oh, that would be me trying to push that angle. But [00:03:35] the researcher was was was the one pushing that angle. And I got the feeling that, you [00:03:40] know, the sort of funding imperative was [00:03:45] so like front and centre of the of their mind [00:03:50] that that was all they were interested in. And it really came out of it a bit jaded. [00:03:55]

Chris O’Connor: I mean, the universities is an interesting system, you know? Um, I mean, the universities [00:04:00] are broke in the UK, like it’s going to one of the big Russell groups is going to go bankrupt soon, [00:04:05] I’m pretty sure. Like they are in a interesting place. And yeah, you know funding [00:04:10] is huge for them. But you know I was on a, on a quite a cheap wage as [00:04:15] a PhD student and clinical teacher. So, but I, you know, I brought in a [00:04:20] quarter of a million for the trial. Um, so it was big. I didn’t obviously see any of it myself. Um, [00:04:25] but yeah, there was a they they need they need funding. Um, yeah, they [00:04:30] do, but they running a clinic, like running a clinical trial in anywhere is very difficult. You need [00:04:35] like a, you need like a critical mass of researchers. It’s so hard. You need an expert in writing, [00:04:40] um, you know, protocols because that’s huge stats. And basically, you know, we struggle [00:04:45] in the UK. You know, it might be better in different areas to have the infrastructure there. Um, [00:04:50] and so I was pretty much doing every single part of the process. And it’s, you know, it’s one of the reasons I left, really, [00:04:55] it was just I managed to finish the project, but, um, you know, it was just overwhelming the [00:05:00] amount of work that you have to go through. And then the other the other thing with clinical trials is you’re like, oh, well, the best thing for dentistry [00:05:05] would be more clinical trials.

Chris O’Connor: But actually, when you look at the cost of that and the follow up, [00:05:10] I mean, like what was the outcome for these crowns basically, did they work or not? Yeah. But [00:05:15] actually what we ended up doing was measuring how well they polished, how well they, um, how did [00:05:20] they stain? Did they, you know, patient like them. Obviously some of those things are really important. But, you know, [00:05:25] fundamentally it was just do they work or not. And when you do clinical trials, what I’ve realised is you really need quite [00:05:30] blunt measures like survival is brilliant. And the better thing to have is, is massive volume, [00:05:35] you know. So one of the things I if I was still in academia, which I’m not, I would be pushing for more like [00:05:40] practice based research, research using the computers, the computers pull the data, [00:05:45] help fund those computers, and you basically get around the Inherent inaccuracies [00:05:50] and like most of the things in dentistry, come down to operator skill. And so you’ve got [00:05:55] to get to get past that. You need massive volume. So there’s a good team in, in in the [00:06:00] Netherlands that are up down leads, which is a big researcher. [00:06:05] And they, they have these computer based practice and you know the research really cutting edge. And the thing is the [00:06:10] UK used to do that, you know with the NHS data sets from Trevor Burke and things we used to pull [00:06:15] these amazing figures.

Payman Langroudi: Imagine the data.

Chris O’Connor: Now we don’t. And now it’s just the three udas. We have no idea [00:06:20] what we’re doing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but imagine that the amount of data the NHS has.

Chris O’Connor: And.

Payman Langroudi: If they could put that [00:06:25] through some supercomputer, whatever it is.

Chris O’Connor: And the data, the data overrides the inherent [00:06:30] issues with that kind of work, because just the sheer volume makes the stats so [00:06:35] good, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: Much more. And I think that’s honestly, it’s like everyone in dentistry [00:06:40] is like, oh, we need more clinical trials. We don’t. They’re expensive. The time you do it on a new zirconia, [00:06:45] five new zirconia are out. You know, what you need is, is, is.

Payman Langroudi: My biggest issue with [00:06:50] it is it’s a weird thing. And again when we did it, this was the tension for me [00:06:55] was if we got the actual answer to an actual question, I from [00:07:00] a from a competitive perspective, I’d rather not put that trial out. Yeah. [00:07:05] Because why would I why would I tell my competitors the answer to a question I really [00:07:10] want the answer to? Yeah. Whereas mostly clinical trials are done for marketing. [00:07:15] Yeah. You know, we’re trying to put a treatment through, you know, some some corporate. [00:07:20] And they go first question where where are the studies. Yeah. And okay, I understand [00:07:25] they have to dot their I’s and cross their t’s. And the other side of it is you just said 3 a.m. spent [00:07:30] 250,000 on this trial and it got nowhere. Yeah. And so [00:07:35] in our world, mine and yours, small company world. Yeah. No way would we risk [00:07:40] that. Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: And they would have considered that post-market surveillance as well. They wouldn’t have really [00:07:45] considered it a full on clinical trial.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, they’re so giant that 250 grand for them.

Chris O’Connor: But because because they [00:07:50] already had the CE mark, they weren’t proving the concept really in their mind. It was proved. [00:07:55] And they were then doing post-market surveillance on it. But but [00:08:00] they didn’t release it because they’re so worried about it not working, you know what I mean? But the way the way these things work, like [00:08:05] the regulatory had already been covered from the lab tests. You know what I mean? So, [00:08:10] I mean, and to be honest with you, like, like three of them are absolute [00:08:15] pleasure to work with in that they are they are so strict with their ethical protocols [00:08:20] like you wouldn’t believe, like they are incredibly, I think, because they have to be.

Payman Langroudi: What you find is the bigger the brand, [00:08:25] the more.

Chris O’Connor: They have to be. And you know, they got pretty burnt. You maybe know about they had a big class lawsuit [00:08:30] about the the lava ultimate composite blocks that they got about it. I don’t know [00:08:35] about it. So in in America they launched Lava Ultimate which was a it’s a it’s still sell sell it [00:08:40] it’s a CAD cam but like a composite material. So you’d make it chair side. And one of [00:08:45] the indications was crowns, but also onlays and things like.

Payman Langroudi: A milled thing. Milled.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, but obviously [00:08:50] you don’t have to then put it in the furnace. It’s straight away. So it’s and it’s cheaper. So it’s attractive for dentists and mills [00:08:55] quicker and less work on the burr. And they look great. So they all went in [00:09:00] and all the onlays and things do okay. But the crowns don’t because again [00:09:05] the lever arm is high. So when they bite they flex and they dibond, which is what I found on my trial too. [00:09:10] So um, anyway, they had obviously lots of issues. They had a class lawsuit, and [00:09:15] I think they ended up having to pay out and they withdrew the indication for crowns. So you can still use it for onlays all [00:09:20] the other bonded restorations kind of thing, but for crowns, it’s not a good option. Um, so [00:09:25] yeah, so obviously like this was all off the back of that as well. But even regardless, [00:09:30] they’re incredibly, incredibly, um, you know, like the universities will kind of [00:09:35] do what they need to get the cash through the big companies I find incredibly ethical. [00:09:40]

Payman Langroudi: But what I mean, what I mean, though, is let’s say you’re going to come out with a new band [00:09:45] design, which you’ve done, I’ve seen many times. Right?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Now you want to sell [00:09:50] that band into Bupa for the sake of the argument? Yeah. Bupa massive brand. [00:09:55] Right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Again, very, very strict on their brand. Yeah. So they’ll send you a thing saying, okay, [00:10:00] send me the studies on this. Yeah. But my point is this the study ends up [00:10:05] being a marketing thing. So no way would you go into a study not [00:10:10] knowing that the result is going to be good, because 250 grand can’t just be thrown [00:10:15] down the drain by you. So, you know, it’s so weird because dentists constantly asking me for studies. [00:10:20] Yeah. And this world of studies doesn’t it doesn’t it doesn’t occur to them [00:10:25] that idea. Now, I don’t know what the alternative is.

Chris O’Connor: I mean, and a lot of the if you read the papers, a lot of them have these. [00:10:30] We call them the strawman strawman one. Right. So they go, oh this is the best bond because it’s better than. [00:10:35] And then they pick a bond that we know is a rubbish bond. And they’re like, well it’s better than that bond. And you’re like well was amazing [00:10:40] because that’s not the gold standard or that’s not that’s not any reference point to go from. [00:10:45] And, you know, you you see all these kind of things. I mean, research is I mean, like I [00:10:50] both love and obviously left it for a reason. I mean, the writing up, it just wasn’t for me. But, you [00:10:55] know, I definitely still have an interest in it. And definitely the people who do [00:11:00] it have a lot of respect for. It’s incredibly challenging to navigate. You know, you’re saying like, oh, well, we’ll not publish that thing. [00:11:05] You have to sign up to say that you will. You have to sign declarations before you can do a clinical trial. It’s [00:11:10] incredibly difficult.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s move on to your [00:11:15] career as a dentist. Sure. You told me before. You [00:11:20] know, you do full mouth rehabs all day. Um, how did you learn [00:11:25] to be that dentist? Like, what was your career path?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. So I graduated 2008, [00:11:30] and then I did two years as a GPT, which was like, it’s like a Newcastle scheme. [00:11:35] It’s half you do one week as an FD At the time, and then one [00:11:40] week, one week on, and then one week off and the week off. You go to the hospital and you work around [00:11:45] all the restorative disciplines, and you do a period, and then you do child [00:11:50] health and oral surgery on the second year. So, um, I did that, which was quite a good grounding. [00:11:55]

Payman Langroudi: Um, which was it?

Chris O’Connor: So that would be 2002. First two years I was graduated 2008 to [00:12:00] 2010, and then I, um, and then it was interesting because I kind of, I think I realised I wanted [00:12:05] to work in practice, um, and I felt like, ah, I really don’t think the NHS is going [00:12:10] to be for me. Um, and we had this kind of talk from Chris Barrow, [00:12:15] you know, and he just kind of like, I was like, I want to go and do private work. I want to have the clinical freedom [00:12:20] I’m never going to be able to. It’s very difficult in this environment. So I took this private job and it was a bit like a, you know, if [00:12:25] I knew what I knew now, but also I don’t think I was necessarily experienced. So I took this job back [00:12:30] in Sheffield and um, it didn’t work out. It was one of those where the NHS dentist had [00:12:35] converted his list to dent plan complete cover just before he retired. And then I went in [00:12:40] taking taking bitewings being like 16 fillings needed, you know, but.

Payman Langroudi: Also that day [00:12:45] and age.

Chris O’Connor: But also way too immature to be able to deal with those conversations, to be honest. So [00:12:50] difficult.

Payman Langroudi: Conversation.

Chris O’Connor: Difficult. And, you know, you look back, don’t you? And you’re like, you know, I was [00:12:55] I was working kind of in that job. I was like single handed. Whereas, you know, early in your career you need support. [00:13:00] So I very, very quickly I was really burnt by that. And I very quickly left. I went back [00:13:05] to working my I needed like somewhere safe. So I went back to my PhD job and I worked as [00:13:10] an NHS dentist for like six years. Um, and I was like determined. I’d sort of been [00:13:15] burnt by private. So I was like, I’m determined to make this work. Yeah. And it was okay until until, [00:13:20] you know, I started doing a day, a week at the dental hospital. I did a bit of PhD training, um, [00:13:25] and, you know, but eventually.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about that. So being this exacting kind of dentist [00:13:30] that you are, how did you manage to make NHS work?

Chris O’Connor: I didn’t, did I? So I got burnt [00:13:35] out and and I got I was really unhappy.

Payman Langroudi: I made no money.

Chris O’Connor: I mean, I was working what I [00:13:40] would do and I look back and I, you know, it’s hard, isn’t it? But I look back and I would [00:13:45] finish work. I mean, I didn’t have kids obviously at the time, but I would finish at 9 p.m. I would work straight through, [00:13:50] not write any notes to save time. And I would finish at 9 p.m. I’d buy all my own gear in which I still [00:13:55] always have done. So I could have, like I bought my own pens and I bought my own materials. I very [00:14:00] much like, pushed it as far as I could. I wasn’t perfect. It’s impossible. But I [00:14:05] did my best. And eventually, you know, you’re like, I can’t keep it up. And. But [00:14:10] at the time, there wasn’t, like loads of private jobs in the northeast. Like, it wasn’t like, like now, [00:14:15] genuinely, it’s still really hard. It’s really hard starting out in dentistry. But people I get [00:14:20] a lot of people come to me, oh, you know what to do. And there’s loads of private jobs. Just normal, [00:14:25] you know, normal, not cutting veneers, just normal happy family dentistry, which is all I wanted to do [00:14:30] anyway. At the time there wasn’t a lot and that’s why I went into the dental hospital and did academia. I thought [00:14:35] it was like the best place. I was really unhappy where I was, and I was like, well, that’s that’ll do me. [00:14:40] And that was okay until it wasn’t. And, um, you know, Covid happened. [00:14:45] The you know, I got again, I got a bit of a habit of getting burnt [00:14:50] out with it. The university is a difficult it was understaffed. But also it’s they’ve got a culture at the university [00:14:55] of being like, could you volunteer to do this? Could you volunteer to do this.

Payman Langroudi: And will kind of.

Chris O’Connor: And my problem [00:15:00] in Payman is it’s always a yes and it’s always then 100%. And you [00:15:05] can’t I couldn’t, couldn’t keep it up really. And so I left there.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about this propensity [00:15:10] for burnout. So what do you do? Do you geek out like focusing completely [00:15:15] on stuff and.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, I think I mean, I’ve just got a different I’ve got a I don’t know, I’ve [00:15:20] got an interesting relationship with work, I suppose I, I get a lot of my, like, self-worth [00:15:25] from working hard and doing a good job, probably too much at times. And I [00:15:30] always and I always have.

Payman Langroudi: Why?

Chris O’Connor: Why do I have that? I don’t know. I think it’s just from growing [00:15:35] up my family. But, you know, like I would probably say I am a [00:15:40] workaholic or borderline, and I get it. And so.

Payman Langroudi: But what’s behind it? [00:15:45]

Chris O’Connor: I mean, all my family are similar. Really? You know, my [00:15:50] brother is, um, you know, he’s very high. Well, he was very high up in Apple and, um, San Fran [00:15:55] and, um, he’s now just been, uh, he got headhunted by General Motors, so, [00:16:00] I mean, he’s. Yeah. Pretty, but I don’t know, our house at home.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about your parents. [00:16:05] I mean, was your dad a very hard working high achiever or what?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. So my mom and dad were both. They [00:16:10] were both teachers. And they were. They were, like, first from their families to go to uni. So [00:16:15] they were they were they had made a jump in social, I guess. [00:16:20] And we, we were like, we had a house that was kind of bigger than we could afford. So [00:16:25] they were. So I always remember being broke and then working a lot. Um, and [00:16:30] so, so. And they worked every single evening, so they’d finish school work, and they would work every [00:16:35] evening. Um, and my dad then was a deputy and my mum latterly was ahead. Um, my [00:16:40] dad is, um, you know, my dad, a big part of my life is, um, I’m estranged from my dad. [00:16:45] Um, he was a really difficult guy at home. Um, he had quite a controlling and [00:16:50] difficult relationship with my mum. Abusive one. And I was pretty unhappy at home, but he and [00:16:55] I haven’t been in touch with him since I was sort of 18.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, that’s a shame.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, [00:17:00] it is a shame. It’s hard. And it’s. I think it’s a lot of like, I don’t know, working hard, [00:17:05] being in control, all of these things. You know, I think obviously I’ve had to work through later [00:17:10] in life. I feel in a good space with that. But I know I have the propensity massively [00:17:15] to.

Payman Langroudi: Like being the kid of teachers. It must be sort of the expectation must [00:17:20] be quite hard. Like, what do they? Were they the kind of parents to like, massively [00:17:25] push on academic?

Chris O’Connor: No, not like, to be honest, the opposite. Oh, really? Yeah. I [00:17:30] think it’s a strange thing. And I think it’s not the worst thing when I look at my parenting. You think you can be [00:17:35] too interested in your kids lives? Yeah. My mom and dad were busy, and they led by the example, [00:17:40] you know, and they engendered in us certain expectations, I think, like, you’re going [00:17:45] to go to university, you’re going to get a good job. But there was, you know, if I, I never and like in hindsight they [00:17:50] would have helped me out financially. But they made it. We will absolutely not help you at all. [00:17:55] You know there was never you know, you’re on your own. You look after it. That’s how I felt. Probably [00:18:00] not. You know. And so and so, you know, I was like, well, if I don’t get a good job, I won’t have [00:18:05] the stuff that comes with that, and I want that. And that was, that was really other. [00:18:10]

Payman Langroudi: That gave you like an independence or self-reliance.

Chris O’Connor: I mean, they would never have told us to do revision or something like that. They’d [00:18:15] be like, well, it’s up to you to sort that out.

Payman Langroudi: How interesting man.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, it was like and they but they would [00:18:20] be working and everyone else in the house was working. So we were like, well, I’ll probably crack on.

Payman Langroudi: I’m really interested in this because, [00:18:25] you know, I come across people sitting where you’re sitting high achievers and often [00:18:30] get it with women guilt regarding, you know, how hard [00:18:35] they’re working and you know, the work life balance and then what they can do with kids and all of that. Yeah. There [00:18:40] are two things I’m kind of interested in in your story. One, I don’t know. Did you allude to your [00:18:45] dad was working so hard? That’s why the relationship ended up breaking down a little bit. Number [00:18:50] two, do you see what I’m saying about, like, what’s happened with you? [00:18:55] Kids learn by osmosis. You don’t have to literally tell them. This is lesson one. This [00:19:00] is lesson two. This is lesson three. They they learn by watching.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. [00:19:05] And that dad worked really hard. But it wasn’t that wasn’t it? I think my dad’s got us. You [00:19:10] know, he’s got some mental health issues. I think to be honest with you, I think [00:19:15] he, you know, he had issues with jealousy and things like that and, you know, narcissism. Yeah. [00:19:20] It became difficult.

Payman Langroudi: New words that we’ve learned. Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: All this stuff.

Payman Langroudi: And then they didn’t.

Chris O’Connor: Have back in the day. You’re like, yeah, you [00:19:25] know, he was just he was just a difficult guy. And then when you leave, it’s all these, you know, controlling relationships. And he’s [00:19:30] and I’m throwing these words out. But at the time he was just he was just he was just scary and [00:19:35] menacing. And I couldn’t wait to leave. Um, you know, to be honest, um, but, yeah, he did [00:19:40] work hard, but it wasn’t that wasn’t why I think he had, like, you know, I think he has he [00:19:45] has got issues with that. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But then reflect on you, the workaholic nature [00:19:50] and the work life balance and all of that. Yeah. Would you say you’re the you’re the [00:19:55] kind of person that if you didn’t work your butt off, you just wouldn’t be you?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, I think I think like [00:20:00] like I like to on the drive home, feel like I’ve given everything that day and I haven’t. [00:20:05] I find it hard to like, you know, I feel most at peace sometimes [00:20:10] when that happens. Just sometimes I’m just. I can’t give anymore. I’m too tired, you know, which is difficult. [00:20:15] Um, but that, like, you know, like, um. I was talking to my wife yesterday. Quite often on a Saturday, [00:20:20] I’ll do half a day’s work. And I quite often it’s like lab work or something I enjoy [00:20:25] a bit more, but, you know, like, to be honest with you, it’s probably quite often. It’s the thing I most want to do. I enjoy it. [00:20:30] Um, I do enjoy it. And, um, yeah, I get a lot of purpose [00:20:35] and drive from that. And, um, you know, it’s I don’t want to work all the time. And [00:20:40] occasionally I get myself in a mess. And when I worked at the university, it was very easy to do that because [00:20:45] the environment didn’t help me. Whereas in my own business, the people, the people.

Payman Langroudi: Set the.

Chris O’Connor: Agenda, they know I’ve got [00:20:50] this propensity and they are, you know, they they enable me and so [00:20:55] does my boss in, in general practice, they’re like, you need to have a minute and like, so [00:21:00] we’re better than I ever have in my life. I feel like I’m harnessing it rather than being hurt [00:21:05] by it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. As a dentist, I. I only [00:21:10] realised what I loved about the job after I stopped. But [00:21:15] I know you haven’t stopped yet, but what aspect of it really [00:21:20] drives you. Like, is it the problem solving? Is it the people part? What [00:21:25] comes to mind when I say that?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. The thing that jumped to my head is you said it was, is was workflows I [00:21:30] think workflows. I mean, at the moment, like finding the perfect workflow to [00:21:35] get someone from a where case A to B is takes up a lot of my life. Like, how do [00:21:40] I integrate face scanners? How do I integrate exocad? How do I integrate my design? How do I get [00:21:45] that process as slick as possible? And maybe like before it was, I was obsessed with [00:21:50] class two contact points. How do I make that workflow? And it’s you know, it leads very well into [00:21:55] teaching, which is once you bake a workflow, you try and make it understandable. Teaching helps me to [00:22:00] work it out.

Payman Langroudi: Organise your.

Chris O’Connor: Thoughts. Like if you said to me, why do I do a lot of teaching, which I [00:22:05] do, it’s because it’s it’s been the best way to learn for me. It’s quite selfish. I just if I teach it, I learn [00:22:10] it. If I have to work out every time I’m doing a procedure, I’m going, how am I going to teach this? It just makes and [00:22:15] that’s. And same with when we build courses. The bit I love most, I like teaching, [00:22:20] it’s great, but the bit I love most is designing the course, thinking of how are we going to build these [00:22:25] practicals to teach these key learning messages through the course? That’s the bit that, that [00:22:30] that. Does that make sense? That workflow part is what really gets me [00:22:35] going.

Payman Langroudi: But then, you know, would you say you’re more Google or more Apple? Do you know what I mean by [00:22:40] that? The Google will put a product out and then like it’s not fully finished product, but [00:22:45] they’ll just improve it, improve it, improve it, improve it, improve it as they go. Yeah. And Apple won’t put it out until they think it’s perfect. [00:22:50] Yeah. It gets in your way.

Chris O’Connor: You can’t be like yeah you can’t be like that. You know like you have to [00:22:55] like you can’t be like that in life, right? We we like when we release the composite course [00:23:00] I spent, you know, every more than everything I had at the [00:23:05] time on the equipment and everything. Setting it up. We made all these bespoke teeth. They cost a fortune. We had to buy 100 [00:23:10] at a time because we were bespoke. I was well so far in before we’d even sold one place. Yeah, [00:23:15] yeah. Yeah. Um, and so we got it as good as we can, but we have iterated that every single [00:23:20] course for three years. You know, some things haven’t. So I put everything [00:23:25] together as best as I could, but there was no like there was no way I would get it perfect. [00:23:30] This is enviable. Um, and so, you know, I don’t like accepting it’s [00:23:35] not gonna be perfect, but it can’t be. Nothing is. And great is the enemy of good. You know.

Payman Langroudi: It really is. [00:23:40] It really can be. I’m thinking of Depeche, you know. He. He wants perfection before [00:23:45] he puts it out. And it takes him years to write.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. The training centre. Yeah. So [00:23:50] the training centre we built for the for the courses, um, you know, when we built it, it was [00:23:55] okay. And I spent the whole next year making it better. It was like, you know, it probably was a minimum, like, [00:24:00] we put everything we could in, but it was a minimal viable product when we released. And anyone who came on those first courses, I’m [00:24:05] sorry that the, you know, sorry we had things where like the, the water bottle [00:24:10] would suddenly spray off and, uh, I mean, we learned a lot about phantom [00:24:15] heads, and every single thing pretty much got remade that we did originally because [00:24:20] everything we realised wasn’t quite right. So yeah, I always innovating.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [00:24:25] go into the clinical a little bit. I mean, you guys are known [00:24:30] for the tour VM.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a Russian thing, right?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah it is. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:24:35] did that go when everyone started sanctioning Russia and not buying from Russia? Did you continue [00:24:40] or did you stop?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, it was scary. I mean, it’s still so. The medical devices have never been sort [00:24:45] of prohibited. We pay an extra. We have to pay an extra duty charge, like a tariff. Um, [00:24:50] so we’ve been paying the tariffs forever, you know? Um, but it was very difficult because that was our [00:24:55] that was our main product. So we we the reason the whole reason we set up the business was because [00:25:00] I loved the tour bands and they were incredibly hard to buy at the time. There was loads of fake ones on the market [00:25:05] on Amazon. You couldn’t you just there wasn’t a reliable dealer you could buy them from. And I was trying to buy them [00:25:10] in for my master’s students at the time, and it was just impossible. And that’s what led us to contact [00:25:15] them again and again and again. You know, these things are until they finally said yes, we could supply them. [00:25:20] So we bought a bunch. Then almost immediately, we set the shop up and Covid [00:25:25] happened. So it was a great start. Then, you know, we had some good.

Payman Langroudi: Incidental, solid win just before [00:25:30] Covid. Covid.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, we launched in February and Covid was what, April. [00:25:35] So it was.

Payman Langroudi: Really quite new.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. Yeah it was a tough start. And then we we I mean we sold [00:25:40] like £500 a month, you know, nothing when it was closed. And then um, [00:25:45] I’m quite friendly with George DeSantis. He was in my year below me at uni. And, [00:25:50] um, you know, I’m quite well I know a lot of people in the, in the, in the [00:25:55] field as you do. And, um, anyway, you know, he was really helpful. I was like, look, man, how do you use it? I’d [00:26:00] never been on any social media platform before. Then I was like, how do you use this thing? And he, you know, like 1 [00:26:05] or 2 things from him. And suddenly we were selling a grand a month. Two grand a month. And then by [00:26:10] the January we’re doing like 20 K. And I was really unhappy with my [00:26:15] time in the dental hospital. And so it kind of became, you know, viable [00:26:20] to not not entirely, but I decided to give it like a year or two of my career to try [00:26:25] and take this thing off. But we we’d started with Trivium, and that was our excuse. That still is [00:26:30] our.

Payman Langroudi: Were you just a one man band at that point?

Chris O’Connor: So interesting. So the the plan was I [00:26:35] would help pick the products, but I was way too busy at the dental hospital, so I was just going to help them pick them. [00:26:40] My buddy Seb, who still he he hates dentistry passionately [00:26:45] and has he was in my ear. He absolutely hates it. He’s a great guy, hates it. And he had a private practice that [00:26:50] he owned that he hates and hated. And he just. So he came to me maybe a year before we set up [00:26:55] and said, look, could we do an online teaching platform now, I’ve done a little bit of online teaching from the university. [00:27:00] I was like, hell no, I’ve tried this. It takes forever and your stuff gets [00:27:05] nicked instantly. I’m like, not interested. But I’d remembered that he’d approached me like, [00:27:10] I want to do something else. So I was like, look, I need someone who’s going to do the the logistics, [00:27:15] which is what he does still now. And I’ll pick the products. And then my buddy, uh, Nigel [00:27:20] Jones was the third, third person we started with. And he was, uh, kind of [00:27:25] had he has a couple of practices and he was going to be a business guy as well. Uh, and Nigel kind of [00:27:30] never really did too much with it. And now it’s just the two of us who run it, um, just the way it worked [00:27:35] out. So, um. Yeah. So.

Payman Langroudi: So Seb is a partner?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. So we’re both co-owner, [00:27:40] um, 50% each. Um, so I’m the CEO. Ceo, and he does, you know, I mean, [00:27:45] but but when we started, it kind of got he was doing [00:27:50] the deliveries from his practice at lunchtime. And then quite quickly he couldn’t. And [00:27:55] so, uh, but he wasn’t ready to, um, sell his practice. He was trying [00:28:00] to sell it, but he, you know, he couldn’t just walk away. And then at the same time, his son got diagnosed with [00:28:05] a brain tumour. Oh my goodness. Yeah. He’s like four years old at the time. [00:28:10] And then he had to take some time out. Went to gym and he had like amazing treatment like this [00:28:15] proton anyway. So basically I took it for like the first, [00:28:20] like I left the uni and then I probably gave it like a year or two. And it was difficult because I wasn’t very [00:28:25] well at the time. But then I got that going, um, and then um, then eventually he [00:28:30] sold the practice. He then took over the ops, and then finally I could get back into clinical dentistry because I’d had to [00:28:35] take I mean, I really reluctantly took off 2 or 3 years. I love clinical dentistry, but [00:28:40] I.

Payman Langroudi: Three years.

Chris O’Connor: Of, uh, I think when you count in, like, how little I did [00:28:45] in Covid. Yeah. Um, um, and then I looked at starting and then [00:28:50] that was when Zach got poorly. And so I had to leave that job, and then I waited till the summer. [00:28:55] Um, and then it was really fortunate because friends of mine in the year above were opening a [00:29:00] squat. And, um, they have a really nice, uh, it’s called Newcastle Advanced Dentistry. It’s [00:29:05] probably the main referral place in the northeast. And so they had the squat. So I just slotted in and it [00:29:10] was my lucky break really.

Payman Langroudi: Did you. I took five years off when we started enlighten. [00:29:15] I remember the first ID block when I got back was so stressful.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah it [00:29:20] was I was I, I it’s funny, my wife’s just going back into clinical dentistry at the minute. So I’m like, she’s like [00:29:25] I can really emphasise, you know, and the thing about the uni is I did do some clinical sessions, [00:29:30] but a lot of the time, you know, you were, you were like I did the clinical trial, I was doing some, but I wasn’t doing heavy volume [00:29:35] for like, I mean I love like I love it now, like when I’m doing the work, like [00:29:40] I like, I mean, I’m not the best at most technical dancer. I’m, I’m gonna hold my own. But [00:29:45] I feel like near the top of my game. And I love that, you know, I that [00:29:50] is, you know, I, you know, when you’re doing it like it’s all those protocols, whatever. What do I love most, you know, and you [00:29:55] just it just works and you’re and you think and whenever you’re doing a procedure when it’s going well, [00:30:00] I think all you can do is think about the millions of times it wasn’t. Do you know what I mean? And you get [00:30:05] a deep margin and you go, right. I know exactly how to manage this. I’m going to do some gingivectomy. [00:30:10] I’m going to do this. I’m going to do that. I’m going to do a two stage matrixing. I’m going to get these DME bands that we’ve developed. I’m going [00:30:15] to Bam. And, you know, it’s just like, uh, I think because of the struggle, [00:30:20] it’s all the more enjoyable.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: You know, the fight is what makes it.

Payman Langroudi: I think that level [00:30:25] of mastery that you’re talking about there, it takes a minimum of ten years.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. So [00:30:30] when you when you got it, you know, a lot of people starting out, like, I like [00:30:35] plenty of times thought about packing in dentistry, you know what I mean? As much as I loved the thing, it’s just so hard, [00:30:40] you know? And it’s so demoralising when every day is open. Margins and [00:30:45] complaints. Whereas now, you know, not that we ever get complications, but they’re [00:30:50] rare because I know what to look for. Uh, I, I take my time. I have the time [00:30:55] not to rush. And if if it’s not going right, I’ll run late until it’s right, because there’s [00:31:00] nothing more expensive in dentistry than redos and emergency appointments. And I’ve learned that.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:31:05] where would you say you’re weak in dentistry? Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: Um, I am [00:31:10] a fairly average oral surgeon. I’m not bad. I do surgical extractions and stuff. Uh, but I, [00:31:15] I don’t, I tell you what I’m not good at is, like, complex medical histories and [00:31:20] stuff like that. Um, I very much lean on. We’ve got a consultant, oral surgeon, and, um, a guy called Will Henderson, [00:31:25] who’s a very, very good. He does a lot of emergency care and, like, he’s brilliant. So I [00:31:30] lean on them. As soon as it’s anything, I’m like, I don’t know what I’m doing. I’m terrible with kids [00:31:35] right now. Like, I know the real bare minimum. I have very few planned patients. Like, [00:31:40] I have like a couple of kids I see. And I constantly have taken photos and going, what should [00:31:45] I do? And I don’t I’ve never launched any orthodontics or any aligners. [00:31:50] And so my worst case is if they need that. I very much lean on my colleague Sarah, who’s excellent. Um, although [00:31:55] funnily, on the train down I’m doing this orthodontic online course at the minute, which is not [00:32:00] because I want to do it, I don’t, I just want to understand it better. Um, and I don’t do any I’ve never done implants. I don’t [00:32:05] know any implant work. So I do like crown lengthening and stuff like that. But I’ve never done implants. And again, I’m [00:32:10] just thinking I might learn how to restore them because I’m doing quite big, big combination cases and I’m planning [00:32:15] it and going, I want them there. And then we get to the end and it’s like three crowns, two implants, [00:32:20] and I want to do them all in one set shot to the lab. So I was like, well, I’m going to have to learn that. And [00:32:25] so no implants, no ortho, no kids. But the other things, you know, they’re [00:32:30] my areas.

Payman Langroudi: What about the soft side?

Chris O’Connor: The patients. I’m [00:32:35] decent. I had a lot of help with when I. When I tell you what I tell you, the thing about that is, when I [00:32:40] worked in NHS dentistry, I had this opinion, which I’m ashamed of now, [00:32:45] but I was like, I don’t have any time. So I either have time to do the treatment well or to be [00:32:50] to give you to.

Payman Langroudi: Be friendly.

Chris O’Connor: To give you time. Yeah. And I would always choose [00:32:55] to do it well. And I was like, I will build this wall of impenetrable notes, that [00:33:00] I will stay here all night, and I will do everything perfectly. And I can see why [00:33:05] I got into that. But it’s it’s totally different to how I am now. Like, I’m aware of that in me. [00:33:10] Whereas now I think I, you know, I give myself a lot of time. I don’t perform well under stress [00:33:15] and I know that about myself. So I give myself time and I think I do pretty. Yeah. Pretty good on that. [00:33:20] I wouldn’t say I think it’s something I’ve had to learn and work hard on. Um, I’m pretty good at, like, [00:33:25] I’m pretty good with other professionals, you know, like, um, teaching and stuff. I’m pretty good on [00:33:30] that. But I think sometimes with patients, I wasn’t always patient, you know, with them of finding [00:33:35] ways to explain it to them. And I’ve had to work on that.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s so important, man, because [00:33:40] we all know dentists who are technically brilliant and their patients don’t realise [00:33:45] it. And then the opposite, we see all the time, right? I had a boss. My [00:33:50] goodness, this guy was maybe the most charming, maybe the most charming guy I’ve ever come [00:33:55] across. Just a wonderful. Like, every time you. If you had him in the room, he’d [00:34:00] be the centre of attention. Wonderful. Wonderful character. Yeah, but the work was, [00:34:05] you know, it wasn’t. It wasn’t negligent. It wasn’t that he [00:34:10] was just old. Yeah, yeah, he was just on the edge of retirement. And I [00:34:15] mean, to be fair, I was young and, you know, at the other side of things, latest, [00:34:20] latest protocols and and I was like, just this guy like, what do you [00:34:25] remember direct.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The direct. It was like it was like light. [00:34:30] Like it was almost.

Chris O’Connor: I think about you. Is it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Like composite [00:34:35] ionomer thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That would stick to everything. And he would just direct everything. He [00:34:40] would just every single thing would be a direct front and back.

Chris O’Connor: I used to do like he just [00:34:45] used to do everything with like, um, maxim, like dual cure resin cement. It just build up the teeth with that, you [00:34:50] know? I mean, he like, where I work, the guy is like 60 patients. And his diary, you [00:34:55] know, the colour in your diary was blue, but it was all red. And he and his kind of thing was like, [00:35:00] he just see them and didn’t charge anyone, like, ever. I don’t think he could charge anyone by the end, because he was so afraid of [00:35:05] a complaint, because he hadn’t read any notes for 60 years, or not 60, but you know what I mean. And he was like, [00:35:10] you know, and he was a he could be a brilliant dentist. But I think that was the system just wore him down. Like [00:35:15] when you go from I mean, I didn’t work in out of service days, but it was all about having high numbers because that’s where [00:35:20] you got the capitation fee. Then you go to Udas, where that’s like almost the opposite of what you wanted from, from from [00:35:25] a purely business point of view. And you couldn’t, but you couldn’t suddenly change how you work with people. You’ve been [00:35:30] doing it for for 20 years. And I think he that was really tough.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so interesting because like, you’re you’re [00:35:35] obsessed by workflow when it comes to particular procedure. This cat, [00:35:40] the one I’m telling you about, was obsessed by patient experience. Yeah, yeah. And [00:35:45] that itself was workflow. Yeah. When this happens do this. When that happens do this. And [00:35:50] he’d gone private in 64.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: In a seaside town. Yeah. [00:35:55] And all the top people in the whole area were his patients. And the insight I [00:36:00] got from him, man, he used to go off on his boat, and I used to treat his patients. [00:36:05] And his price was. It was a private practice, but his price was like triple mine. And [00:36:10] he used to give everyone this 10% discount. Yeah. So I’d see his patients and then [00:36:15] I’d go, well, you know, I’ll also give you the 10% discount. And the patients would be over the moon. Over [00:36:20] the moon that I’d honoured this 10% discount at three times the price.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. [00:36:25]

Payman Langroudi: I mean.

Chris O’Connor: So it doesn’t come naturally. So we like I’ll give you a few examples [00:36:30] of that. One of the things is on the website, we try and make the prices as low as we can, but we charge the shipping [00:36:35] at the price that the shipping costs us. Yeah. It’s like £10. But I’ve got to pay staff, I’ve got to pack it [00:36:40] and we’ve got the Fedex fee. Right. But people just want free shipping. But if I put the free shipping on I’d have to [00:36:45] load the prices on everything. Yeah. You know, because some of the items we do are very cheap. But you know, and [00:36:50] I’m like, everything would be it would be more expensive, but I think people would prefer it. But my head [00:36:55] just can’t go like it’s crazy because we’d have to like, you’d have to build in these [00:37:00] like extra fees really to cover the shipping because it has to be paid for somehow, right?

Payman Langroudi: So you [00:37:05] are you a numbers guy?

Chris O’Connor: Uh, I’m not like I was going to come to you, but like [00:37:10] the other one who’s big patient journey, but does it in a number. You had Zach Kara on here. He’s a pal of mine.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing, [00:37:15] amazing.

Chris O’Connor: But he takes it, like. Love it. Next level. And Alan’s been really good. Alan. [00:37:20] Alan Bergman, who I know you’ve had on a lot. Yeah. He works [00:37:25] in a very nice that private practice in Cornwall. And he really helped me when I went into [00:37:30] private practice to give me his journey as they came in. You know, how to do the photos, [00:37:35] how to do that. And you know what that was? That was a I learned it from him.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:37:40] had to find I had to find the episode numbers so that we can direct people to one of my favourite episodes. Alan really [00:37:45] enjoyed that.

Chris O’Connor: He didn’t mention me enough. I should have done that. I listened to the whole thing was [00:37:50] like one incidental plug right at the end. I was like, this is. I told him as well. I was like, this is. He was like, oh, [00:37:55] I plugged it. I was like, yeah, a little bit.

Payman Langroudi: That’s funny.

Chris O’Connor: Um, no, it was good. Um, they’re going to [00:38:00] be. I’ve been going on about wanting to come on here pretty much since he was on.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Chris O’Connor: Oh, yeah. Because [00:38:05] like, we all teach together and stuff, but they always I’m always like, oh, I’d love to do that. Dental Leaders. [00:38:10] And they’re like, Chris, you’re not really a leader, though. You’re more of a manager. Manager. And and they they’ve [00:38:15] used this to taunt me for the last three years. So I, um. Yeah. It’s nice to.

Payman Langroudi: Ask, [00:38:20] are you a numbers guy? I’m not. Yeah. My my partner, he is. [00:38:25] And so when you run the numbers, you realise that this is what I was asking you [00:38:30] about. Product positioning.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. You realise that that that notion of lowering [00:38:35] the price of the product that you can, you can run it through a spreadsheet. Yeah. [00:38:40] So if I drop the price of the product by £20, what happens. And [00:38:45] it’s extraordinary what happens. Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: We’re pretty. One of the things is we price [00:38:50] where we can and that means there’s not really any flex. So, um, you know what? I [00:38:55] tell you what I hate. I hate the, you know, that thing where you want to upgrade your mobile phone and they give you a price [00:39:00] and you’re like, I know this isn’t the price. And we have to go through this intricate dance of me ringing you and you [00:39:05] going, well, is it the press? And they go, well, there is something we can do, Mr. O’Connor. And, you know, you’re like, you have to ring around. [00:39:10] Same with insurance. And I’m like, I hate that. So the price is the price is the price. We could we’ve got very little [00:39:15] we can do on it and that’s it. So we get, uh, you know Kohl’s. Can you give me a you know and they used [00:39:20] that thing of they will ring. And also that ringing round that negotiation takes time [00:39:25] that costs money. And it’s annoying. So we’ve always been like we do [00:39:30] it literally. That is the best price we can. And whether you’re a corporate or an individual you will [00:39:35] get that same price. Like if you buy an extraordinary volume, potentially we do a small amount, but [00:39:40] that’s pretty much it. We have an education discount. We give, you know, again, you will have the same right. People get in [00:39:45] touch with me all the time, three days before their first course. Can I have half the world for free? [00:39:50] You know, and it’s like, well, we have to cover our costs when we run our courses. [00:39:55] So I think it’s probably fair that you do the same, right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: Um, but yeah, we don’t we don’t [00:40:00] really, uh, I’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Got a couple of bugbears in that in that area. One that same [00:40:05] dentist will then five minutes later tell a patient you get what you pay for. Um, which [00:40:10] that’s, that’s one. But the second one, my worst my the call I hate [00:40:15] the most. And they seem to send it to me when this call comes in is they’ll say, sell [00:40:20] me your course. Yeah, sell me mini smile makeover. And I’ll say, what [00:40:25] do you mean? And then he’ll say, yeah, yeah, well, I’m considering either course or your course. [00:40:30] So tell me why I should go to yours. And it just pisses me off. Because [00:40:35] if you if you’re if you’re like a serious dentist, you go to both, right? You go to in fact, you go to all seven of [00:40:40] them, right? You know.

Chris O’Connor: These people. I’ve never. I’ve never like I. I didn’t like [00:40:45] the people you get. And they’re like, on a Sunday morning, they’re like, can you give me a call? Oh, this guy ring me the [00:40:50] other day. I won’t say who it is. Obviously. He goes, give me a call. I go, I teach a lot. I’m a big deal in [00:40:55] dentistry. I was like, well, I’ve never heard of you, but I live in Newcastle. I’m quite insulated. So like, [00:41:00] you have all these people on the podcast, I’ve never heard of them. I’m sure they’re massive, but we live in a bubble up there. [00:41:05] I go, well, I’ve never heard of you, but brilliant. And he goes, well, I will promote your like cure to everyone you know [00:41:10] I will do that. So what’s your price if I buy 18 of them for my course and I go, well, to be honest, [00:41:15] mate, we do it the best price we can. It’s a big volume to get you 10% off. That’s the best I can do. And [00:41:20] you can tell it’s just not what he really wants is them for free. And so we have this hour phone [00:41:25] call of him being like going on and all you can do for me and I’ll get you in to do. I’ve got this thing going [00:41:30] on and on. And then he goes, finally gets around to, okay, so I’ll just take one then, which is what he wanted all [00:41:35] along.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Chris O’Connor: Just wanted the lowest price. Give me one for free. So massive volume to get the price. I’m like, [00:41:40] okay, well, if it’s just one, it’ll be the price that they’re at. Won’t it? And then he’s like, okay, I’ll leave [00:41:45] it. And I’m like, well, thanks for taking up the hour of my time up on my Sunday, you know. And [00:41:50] because he had my number to ring me and I was like, you know, you don’t want a p p p people off, but [00:41:55] some people have got some brass neck and then you work with other people if you have.

Payman Langroudi: The opposite, do.

Chris O’Connor: You ever work with and [00:42:00] you’re like, I go the other way. I’m like, no, no, no, I will give it you for free because [00:42:05] you’re not like pushing. You’re not standing on my neck all the time. Like, I will go out of my way [00:42:10] to help you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I find that there’s there’s a few of our users who’ve been with us for years [00:42:15] and years who’ve never once said, give it to me cheaper. And [00:42:20] coincidentally, uh, the nurses are empowered to buy. They [00:42:25] don’t have to go off and get, like, permission and all that and some of the most successful practices as well. [00:42:30] I mean, like, properly in their areas, the most successful practices. I mean, it’s not a coincidence, right? [00:42:35] The guy, the guy trusts people enough to give them that responsibility. By the way, pay their bills [00:42:40] on time. These are simple things, right?

Chris O’Connor: Be a pleasure. Be a pleasure to work with. Yeah. And [00:42:45] you, you will like. You know, I got this corporate who we buy from, and they’re, [00:42:50] like, haggling me all the time for an extra discount. And I’m like, the thing is, the discount is having to put up with you [00:42:55] because we have to chase every invoice. We have to do all of this. Any discount I could [00:43:00] provide you is swallowed up with the extra admin you give me. I was like, no, if [00:43:05] anything, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Charge you more.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, charge you more because you’re a pain in the bum. You know, you’re [00:43:10] an absolute pain in the bum. There’s no discount because you, as the people who pay on time, they’re a pleasure [00:43:15] to deal with. They’re polite. You’re like, you know what? You’re so low maintenance that it’s. Yeah, [00:43:20] fine. You know what I mean? I like I’m very like, you know, it’s my we’re a very small [00:43:25] business. We can you know, it’s funny, isn’t it? Like it’s not quite the same, [00:43:30] but you can to a degree. You choose who you want to work with, right? Um, I mean, you know, an online shop, [00:43:35] not so much, but definitely the people who we engage with more. You have some, you have some say. And as a dentist, [00:43:40] I’m very much, you know, um, you know, I only have so much time and [00:43:45] I want to I love it’s nothing better than taking someone with a broken down mouth and giving them an amazing mouth, you know? [00:43:50] And and it’s a pleasure to do, but it’s a it’s a real pleasure when they’re lovely, you [00:43:55] know, it is just the best thing in the world. And so if anyone’s not a real pleasure, they’re [00:44:00] taking the space of someone who is. And I’m fully booked, so you know what I mean. They’ll get a higher price. They just will. [00:44:05]

Payman Langroudi: And the amazing thing is that, you know, all right, we all work for money, but most [00:44:10] dentists work for that genuine thank you that a patient will give you at [00:44:15] the end of treatment. Yeah. Like that thing. If that thing didn’t exist, [00:44:20] dentistry would, wouldn’t be anywhere near. It’s such an interesting. It’s just it’s just a thank you. There’s [00:44:25] nothing more or less to it than that. Just.

Chris O’Connor: And just a bit of, like, you know, a little bit of, like, understanding [00:44:30] that things don’t go right or like, you know, never am I going to do a full mouth rehab About every single everything [00:44:35] goes to plan. It’s just not. I’ll say it in the next part. I say like within this I put some contingency [00:44:40] money, you know, I don’t want to come back to you and go, I need more money. So if one of the teeth needs a root filling, [00:44:45] fine. If I take it off and it’s broken down, it needs an implant. I can’t cover that, [00:44:50] you know? But within reason I will be, as I have done, a price that will cover [00:44:55] that to a degree, you know, and that’s how I, you know, I do it very like, to be honest with you, I’ve [00:45:00] kind of like when I go back to my early days of being like this, like this note heavy monster. Now, [00:45:05] I do it a lot on trust and I, but I think, you know, touch wood. I’ve had less. I [00:45:10] don’t have a lot of complaint issues because of that. You know, I didn’t just get to have [00:45:15] the treatment. I’d be like, you know, Zach’s got these gateway, Zachary’s got these gateways. They have to get, you know, we’re going to do a consult. [00:45:20] Then I’m going to do two planning sessions. They’re going to have to commit. It’s non-refundable. Those like by the time [00:45:25] we’re going there, I’ve already met them for 2 to 2 hours. You know, we’ve chatted a lot, you [00:45:30] know, like I wouldn’t dive in on a rehab with someone you know, off the bat. No way. You know, [00:45:35] um.

Payman Langroudi: Makes sense.

Chris O’Connor: I want to sound them out. I want to feel like, you know, I can trust you. And [00:45:40] it’s reciprocal, right? You can trust me if it goes. Occasionally things don’t go right, but I [00:45:45] will do my best to put it right. And occasionally I can’t. And that won’t be my fault.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about [00:45:50] incidental. How many staff now?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. We’re lean. Um, we have, uh, [00:45:55] we have two kind of admin staff, um, who are overseas. Then [00:46:00] we have, um, me and Seb. So Seb’s full time. Um, Seb, sister Becky [00:46:05] joined us. She’s four days. Um, I’m kind of sort of 1 [00:46:10] to 3 days, depending on the week, teaching a lot. So I’m not in loads, but oversight it. [00:46:15] And then we have two people who do the, um the deliveries. So we’re a team of like 6 [00:46:20] or 7.

Payman Langroudi: Sales.

Chris O’Connor: Is.

Payman Langroudi: Who does sales.

Chris O’Connor: Uh, I do all the sales. I do [00:46:25] all the marketing.

Payman Langroudi: What about if you’re like, oh.

Chris O’Connor: Sorry, no sales.

Payman Langroudi: Who answers the phone.

Chris O’Connor: Sales online [00:46:30] and we try not to answer the phone. We go like just just drop us an email. So we’ve got guys we have instead. [00:46:35] We’ll manage those while he’s doing everything.

Payman Langroudi: Well yeah. Marketing.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. So marketing is me. Um, [00:46:40] we don’t do we’ve never done any paid advertising I don’t think really I think we said [00:46:45] we’re on a course once and started wanting to pay money, and I was like, stuff that you did a tiny bit. We [00:46:50] launched in Europe, selling Europe, and we did a little bit over there. Um, but we, we’ve [00:46:55] maybe eaten our whole time working maybe £500 on marketing. We never advertise the courses. [00:47:00] Um, again. I always feel like that money.

Payman Langroudi: Then how do people hear about the courses [00:47:05] then?

Chris O’Connor: Just just. So we had a I guess we had between because it was me, [00:47:10] Ollie and Alan who did the first course, and I when I did it, I wasn’t working clinically, so I was like, I can’t put it on my own [00:47:15] as much as I like. I do know a lot about contact points. I’ve spent a lot of time worrying about it. [00:47:20] Um, but Ollie, Ollie is a very good dentist and he’s still an academic now, and and [00:47:25] Alan has got great hands and he’s GDP and so I needed that. So we hooked up, we wrote [00:47:30] the course, and we all had our own network because I taught I did the, you know, the days for the deanery. [00:47:35] You have them here like I’ve been doing them for 12 years, 13 years. I do the Crown [00:47:40] Day for the PhDs only. I used to do composite. So anyway, people knew me and I taught. So [00:47:45] within that, we probably got enough people to do the first 3 or 4 courses. We sold them all out. And we’ve never not sold [00:47:50] out, of course.

Payman Langroudi: But what did you actually do? Did you what? Post on social media.

Chris O’Connor: Did we. Yeah. Yeah, just everything’s on [00:47:55] Instagram. We never used anything else. Instagram. Um, but I think what helped was we kind of. What [00:48:00] I tried to do is sometimes show how much work we’re putting in. So I’d show them all the bespoke [00:48:05] models we were making, you know, like I’d also I would show them.

Payman Langroudi: They call that [00:48:10] building public.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. And I tell you what we do as well was we we’d show them how we teach. So I released quite a lot of like [00:48:15] YouTube videos or of of technique, um, like, if you can think of it like we were showing people [00:48:20] how to use the products, but giving away content. Um, but really, what was also trying to do was show people how [00:48:25] how we teach. Um, I don’t think the composite course market is [00:48:30] interesting, isn’t it? Because a lot of people, there’s a lot of courses aimed at the the top, I [00:48:35] would say getting from 95% to 100% of. What do you mean? I mean, like, there’s [00:48:40] a lot of courses that are about making it, like making it extraordinary. Oh, I see extraordinary layering, [00:48:45] extraordinary finishing, that kind of thing. And we very much pitched it as we want to get you to 90% [00:48:50] on a big range of topics, like we want to get you really solid, decent. And I think that [00:48:55] gave us a new, slightly different position in the market. Um, and what [00:49:00] else? And then, yeah, the social media stuff, um, kind of kind of. [00:49:05] And then I think genuinely, it was just word of mouth from there. Um, and now it is word of mouth because, [00:49:10] you know, that’s you can’t explain it otherwise, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:49:15] you could you could push as well. I mean, in a way, you’re talking about pull in [00:49:20] marketing terms, but you could push to the it’s just. Yeah, it’s it’s just it’s. [00:49:25]

Chris O’Connor: Just.

Payman Langroudi: Another way of working.

Chris O’Connor: One of the things, one of the interesting things at the minute is we’re kind of we’re sold out and we just [00:49:30] can’t do more dates because we’ve all got young families and stuff. And so that’s what’s. [00:49:35]

Payman Langroudi: The limiting factor.

Chris O’Connor: But we like it how it is. And we’ve written new courses. So I [00:49:40] mean, yeah, I mean as you know, like the hardest thing is if the profit, it all comes from that [00:49:45] last bit of sale, the, you know, if you run like the courses are so expensive to run [00:49:50] that, you know, my probably my break even point is three quarters full, you know.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah. Me [00:49:55] too.

Chris O’Connor: Me too. You know, like, the courses have to have to like. I mean, [00:50:00] I think sometimes when.

Payman Langroudi: You break even on the ticket price, that sort of thing.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. Like so [00:50:05] and I don’t know, I mean, if you want to like people, people, [00:50:10] you know, people everyone wants to do teaching, everyone wants these courses. And I’ve got a good idea [00:50:15] why that is as well, which is because they see it as a way of raising profile. As much as I [00:50:20] wanted to get back to was was the course is I’m a decent technical dentist, but what I’d like to [00:50:25] think with all the time I’ve spent, we can. We’re not better than other people, probably less. But we could [00:50:30] teach it better. We will. We will work on the teaching and the teaching theory and the practicals [00:50:35] better. And that’s what I really hope we try to do, is invest [00:50:40] as much as possible in the way that we teach. And the other thing so like we do, all of the practicals are videoed [00:50:45] and it’s because when you go on a course, often the person doing the demo like gets tired because it’s hard [00:50:50] work.

Payman Langroudi: To be available to look at the work.

Chris O’Connor: We don’t I don’t want that. I want and I want everyone to be a frontline speaker [00:50:55] who speaks, and I want them to go and give people, people coming for the one on one, [00:51:00] you know, the feedback they don’t like. If you want just the content, the lecture content, you can get it online. You [00:51:05] can get it anywhere they want, the one they want, the personal one on one that like 20 minutes [00:51:10] that you spend checking the work. And I want everyone they see to be one of the frontline speakers. [00:51:15] And that that was a big part of it and also the practical. So if the draw. [00:51:20] I like hands on. I like in-person courses. So the draw of that [00:51:25] right is that the practicals are really rich because if they’re not, and I’ve been on lots of these courses where the practicals [00:51:30] are just like an afterthought, you know, what’s the point? You might as well do it online. That’s the market [00:51:35] I’m fighting against is the online market. So we’ve got to be because that’s cheaper. So you’ve got to be demonstrably [00:51:40] better than that. I think I’ve got off topic.

Payman Langroudi: No, [00:51:45] no. And you know what I found that people come on a course sometimes to [00:51:50] get away from their lives.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. By the way I think teaching is a [00:51:55] bit of that. Yeah. Because dentistry is kind of lonely. It’s like a four walls. You’re a nurse. It is a lonely [00:52:00] place. Um, and you know, when you were saying the reasons why people teach. [00:52:05] Yeah. It’s fun, man. Let’s not let’s not forget it’s fun. It’s fun meeting people [00:52:10] and and imparting knowledge.

Chris O’Connor: Sharing what? You know. Yeah. It’s lovely. It’s a privilege, isn’t it? Really.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a it’s [00:52:15] a privilege. And you’re right to take it seriously and and want want it to be the best experience. But [00:52:20] I found, you know, like, one guy’s best experience is totally different to the person sitting next to [00:52:25] him. You know, like, one guy wants to stay out till 3 a.m. and drink. Um, the other one really [00:52:30] wants to find out about his, uh, cases or something. I mean, and so you have to, like, figure [00:52:35] out all of that.

Chris O’Connor: But I think we would, you know, I get that, but we would very much position ourselves [00:52:40] as a like, if I’m honest with you, a very academic course it is. Um. [00:52:45] And I’m not ashamed of that. That’s. We are what we are. You know, we that’s our flavour is [00:52:50] we’re going to be teaching you everything, everything we know. And we’re going to be we’re going to be pushing it in. And [00:52:55] like we we don’t do socials. We don’t do that. That’s that’s not that’s not me. That’s not us. [00:53:00] Um, not that we I love meeting the people, but that’s and we, we, we spend a lot of time with [00:53:05] people because we spend a lot of time we have very long practicals. We have lots of one on one. Um, but it’s not a [00:53:10] it’s very like we don’t it’s not a social. So we’re going [00:53:15] to teach you everything we can in the time we have. And it’s packed.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so we do both. And [00:53:20] it’s tiring. It’s tiring. Yeah. People. People at the end of the two days [00:53:25] are destroyed. Yeah, because. Because the course runs from 9 a.m. to 7 [00:53:30] p.m., and then dinner starts at eight, and then we go on till midnight. And then this, of course, starts [00:53:35] at 9 a.m.. And so it’s too much, right? It’s so much work, um, that, you [00:53:40] know, on the Sunday everyone’s damaged. Yeah. But, you know, it’s different.

Chris O’Connor: It’s been. But that’s I mean, [00:53:45] it’s been it’s been. How long have you been running it?

Payman Langroudi: For ten years. Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: So I say to people, [00:53:50] you can run a course. Anyone can run a course twice to break even. You’ve got to run it five times. And [00:53:55] very few courses can run past the first couple. Everyone has enough following to get a couple, [00:54:00] but to get past that, it has to be a really good course and you have to have really good word of mouth. Yeah, [00:54:05] and Miloco does, you know, I think incidental does.

Payman Langroudi: You know, the problem with courses, I find they take [00:54:10] up like so much time, like enlighten the whole [00:54:15] of the restorative part of our company, including the courses, the cosmic stuff, the everything. [00:54:20] Not bleaching accounts for 15% of turnover, but [00:54:25] it accounts for at least 40% of time.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:54:30] if you look at it in a cold ROI way, then it’s not worth it. [00:54:35] Because. Because why don’t we put more time into enlightened? It makes more sense. Right. But that’s [00:54:40] what I’m saying. It’s fun. It’s connection. Connection to the market. You know, little [00:54:45] I call it soft benefits. Like, for instance, do you do you exhibit a dentistry show?

Chris O’Connor: We [00:54:50] we don’t do any. We just the price is just.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: We would we would never [00:54:55] stack the price because we could we try and get the prices low on them and you know the it’s just the website [00:55:00] and everything. You’d have to.

Payman Langroudi: So I do.

Chris O’Connor: I.

Payman Langroudi: Do I sometimes spend 60, £70,000 [00:55:05] on a two day, two day show. Yeah. And it cannot pay off. [00:55:10] It used to. It used to I’d say maybe 6 or 7 years ago. It used to pay [00:55:15] back. Yeah, but it cannot pay back in those two days. It’s impossible for it to pay back. And [00:55:20] if you’re looking at, you know, we we turn over more than that. But then you’ve got to look at profit, right? It’s like [00:55:25] the profit from that turnover isn’t £70,000. And then you think of lifetime value and so on, [00:55:30] you know. But but the soft benefits of it rather than the hard benefits [00:55:35] make it worth it. Like one conversation.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: No with one person [00:55:40] that you at one insight. Yeah. From one customer or one [00:55:45] competitor or one whoever. One academic, one thing. Have you heard one [00:55:50] thing like that makes having your stand and you know, by the way, we’ve been planning [00:55:55] it for for two months and you know what’s going to be the music, what’s going to be the drinks, what’s going [00:56:00] to be this? What’s going to be on the big video wall? Who’s going to do what the hotels and restaurants, [00:56:05] the the taking your, your.

Chris O’Connor: It’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Big it’s a massive thing. Yeah. [00:56:10]

Chris O’Connor: It’s huge. Here. And we. Yeah. It’s huge. We. If we went, I’d just be like me on a little stand. I mean, it [00:56:15] would be, um, we put all of our, all of the resource goes into on online. [00:56:20] Um, and then I suppose the courses are our, that is our, our [00:56:25] shopfront in a way. Yeah, but it pays for my, um, so one of the reasons the reason [00:56:30] we, I never planned to do courses with incidental, but when we ran it, when we opened the business, we were getting asked [00:56:35] to sponsor. So I’d go down a couple of times. I went to London, bring all my stuff, have a little, you know, stand. [00:56:40] But I was like, it’s just impossible for me to make my day rate as a dentist, you know what I mean? [00:56:45] To go and to go do that. Whereas if they came to us and we ran a good course, I could [00:56:50] cover my costs for the day on the teaching, and then you’d still have the chance to exhibit. And that’s [00:56:55] really where it came from. I think the training has then become bigger than than that. [00:57:00] It’s probably almost as big part of our it’s probably 5050 our business. [00:57:05]

Payman Langroudi: Compared to products.

Chris O’Connor: To the shop, the shop and the training. Ah. And as we’ve moved into, we now end our [00:57:10] courses. We have two huge tooth wear course, which is we’re putting everything [00:57:15] into at the moment. Um, that’s what I would say. It’s like 50% of the business.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your best selling product?

Chris O’Connor: Well, [00:57:20] I would say the TVM is probably what we’re known for, but what we did [00:57:25] was we then worked with TVM and I’ve developed products with them. So the double curve is something I’m really [00:57:30] proud of. It’s a double curve matrix. It’s a sectional band.

Payman Langroudi: Is it like greater curve?

Chris O’Connor: No. [00:57:35] It’s a we do a basically a copy of Greater Curve. We sell um, [00:57:40] because it’s not got a pattern in the UK, in the UK, Europe. Uh, we do, but I’ve developed my own [00:57:45] DME bands as well, um, which are tofflemire based. Um, we’ve developed a separate. [00:57:50]

Payman Langroudi: One with a little elbow in it.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Such an interesting idea. Like, it’s [00:57:55] such an obvious thing, isn’t it?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. So we developed that. I mean, I’m very lucky in that if I want to get something [00:58:00] made, I can, I can, I can now like either through a company or we’ll make it ourselves. [00:58:05] You know, we have we’ve got quite a lot of expertise in CAD. And so we’ll design it and we’ll get it made. We’ve got [00:58:10] to do the tooling.

Payman Langroudi: And like if you’re copying something, what drives you that you’re going to do it cheaper.

Chris O’Connor: Cheaper. [00:58:15] Yeah. We’ll bring the price. Like the greater curves. The reason we did them was before Sonny was doing the UK company. [00:58:20] Um to get those you had to import them. And it was a nightmare. And they were such big volumes in [00:58:25] a pack, you could only buy a pack of like 100. So the cost is really high. So we do them in packs and you [00:58:30] don’t need 100. You need like 12, you know, because you don’t use them all the time. I don’t [00:58:35] I know that Sonny does them for like, uh, almost everything, you know, so he could [00:58:40] probably get through 100. But for me, they’re really for creating emergence and flair on deep margins. I [00:58:45] wouldn’t bring a build a contact point with one, but anyway. So, um. But they [00:58:50] were. So they were a nightmare to get as well. You had to do all the import. And so we actually copied them before Sonny had them in the UK, [00:58:55] because we wanted to make them again. The tag of incidental is making quality dentistry [00:59:00] accessible for all, and that is its accessibility in terms of you can buy it, it’s available [00:59:05] and accessibility in price and accessibility in. We will show you how to use [00:59:10] it. So we’ve got the videos online of how you use it.

Payman Langroudi: But you know I don’t know I [00:59:15] hate the idea of copying anything. I hate it.

Chris O’Connor: I don’t [00:59:20] mind. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, I mean, I’m sure I copy things. Yeah I do. [00:59:25] Yeah. I love the idea of copying something from another industry into dentistry. [00:59:30] Yeah. So I’m doing my own copying all the time. Yeah. Um, but you know, the [00:59:35] mindset, like, like of of that process, like, for instance, someone like Prem great [00:59:40] at that. Right? Really good at making something cheaper. Yeah. Um, my, [00:59:45] there’s different ways of doing business, isn’t it? You can, you can go on the.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not on the price volume angle [00:59:50] or you can go on the technology margin angle. But I reckon a brain like yours [00:59:55] could be on the technology margin.

Chris O’Connor: Both. We do both. So we’ve got unique.

Payman Langroudi: Not easy to do [01:00:00] both math but. Well, you know, it’s like saying we do both private and NHS. It’s hard to do both [01:00:05] well.

Chris O’Connor: Well we do. I don’t know whether we do both well, but we do. We do both. We do both. I’ve developed [01:00:10] these unique products, so I’ve developed like a rubber dam clamp. That’s for online cementing. I did that with [01:00:15] terbium. It took us like two years to develop that got the bends right. That was really hard. And yeah, you’d be upset if someone [01:00:20] else copied yours.

Payman Langroudi: If you bother with Torvean, why don’t you just develop it yourself?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. Good question. Um, it’s it’s [01:00:25] incredibly, incredibly hard to to make rubber dam clamps. Good. Um, it’s not an easy thing to do. [01:00:30] And they’ve got a huge amount of expertise. Um, there’s a couple of things where I think I could have. So we developed [01:00:35] a product called the Elliott Ring, and I’ve got another one coming out, and it’s a, you know, how you get your sexual [01:00:40] matrix kit, it’s got this nickel titanium ring and you put it on and it goes poof. Well, one of the things that does and we’ve got [01:00:45] papers that we’ve published on this is it crushes the band a lot. And you create, we call it deformation. [01:00:50] A lot of deformations, dents, all this stuff. So this Elliott ring is developed on the Elliott [01:00:55] separator. And you place it and you can twist it so you can completely control and look at the band [01:01:00] and see is it is it reforming? Right. So we we design developed that I got the, um, [01:01:05] design registry through Europe and UK and we get that made manufactured. [01:01:10] So we have Ukca mark, which isn’t that bad to get, but you know, getting CE mark since they [01:01:15] did the MDR which was around Covid time, if you’re in the market, the whole go [01:01:20] on a rant here, but if you’re in the market already, you’re allowed to apply for extensions, [01:01:25] which means you basically don’t have to do anything, but it’s basically no one you can get in the market. And, [01:01:30] um, they’ve done it. The EU have done it to protect the market from Chinese products [01:01:35] and.

Payman Langroudi: Insurgents.

Chris O’Connor: Insurgents, because the Chinese are way ahead in.

Payman Langroudi: In many [01:01:40] things, way.

Chris O’Connor: Ahead and cheaper. So they’ve done they’ve made the regulatory impossible so we can get ukca. [01:01:45] But getting CE is really difficult. So even though I’ve developed that product, I’m thinking at the minute, maybe going through Tor [01:01:50] to do it and in exchange give them the license for the product. But in exchange we would have Europe [01:01:55] EU distribution. Because the thing I found hardest of all. [01:02:00] Of everything is regulatory compliance. Everything I do, it.

Payman Langroudi: Is.

Chris O’Connor: Hard. That’s. [01:02:05] That is the bit that I hate.

Payman Langroudi: I me too, me too. But you have to [01:02:10] acknowledge that it’s also the best thing about our business. It’s the dip. It’s the dip. It stops [01:02:15] now. It stops insurgents, right? So it’s the dip. It’s not. Yeah, it’s not like I open a pizza shop. My brother in law [01:02:20] opens one across the road. You know, it’s difficult to get into this market.

Chris O’Connor: When you’re through the dip. [01:02:25] The dip is beautiful when you’re facing the dip, the dips are horrible.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I hate regularly. We [01:02:30] outsource, we pay through our nose to outsource.

Chris O’Connor: The money is like we [01:02:35] got like a quote for it. It’s like 93 grand to do the paperwork, but the paperwork and, [01:02:40] you know, the instrument we’re trying to do, it’s a rubber stamp punch. Yeah, yeah. You [01:02:45] know, and the pay. And so I was like, well, I’ll do it. So he spent he’s probably spent six months [01:02:50] like when he’s got free time doing the regulatory. The file is, you know, uh, I don’t [01:02:55] know, 2000 pages. Right. And we’re still getting kickback on this thing, right? For a rubber stamp [01:03:00] punch. It’s it’s beyond. I mean, they’re going to roll back on it 100%. It’s literally just a time [01:03:05] block for this, for the EU to try and protect their market while they try and figure out what they’re going to do. [01:03:10] And it’s, you know, it’s nothing. It’s nothing to do with patient safety. And it’s nothing to do with [01:03:15] it’s literally controlling the market. And I as someone who wants to make dentistry more accessible, [01:03:20] it boils my blood.

Payman Langroudi: Grinds your gears. What keeps [01:03:25] you up at night.

Chris O’Connor: In in dentistry or life or, uh, [01:03:30] like the company? Sometimes I just get, like, I get, like, I got quite a lot of plates [01:03:35] spinning. You know, I’ve got my clinical, got my teaching, got my product development, got [01:03:40] trying to get new, uh, distribution deals. I might have some staff problems, HR problems, [01:03:45] like, we’re a growing business. We’re small. Um, so sometimes, like, it doesn’t take [01:03:50] many of them to be going wrong, that you kind of can feel a bit overwhelmed. So that can that can do that [01:03:55] to me. Um, I love the mix. The mix is a buzz, but the mix, you [01:04:00] know, like, let’s say I have a problem with a patient and a HR problem at the same time because, [01:04:05] you know, capacity to manage that. It’s getting better as I’ve got more team, but that’s hard. [01:04:10] Um, and to be honest with you, um, the thing I find [01:04:15] hardest in my life is, is, um, is, is parenting, you know, it’s like, um, it’s. [01:04:20]

Payman Langroudi: How many kids are you two?

Chris O’Connor: And my kids are just getting [01:04:25] to a lovely age, you know? But how old are they? Uh, ten and six.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s [01:04:30] just been through the through the hard bit.

Chris O’Connor: We didn’t sleep for. Yeah, [01:04:35] yeah. Like we and like. And, you know, managing them and giving them [01:04:40] what they need as a family unit when you’re so strained. Is that like [01:04:45] giving them what they need is, is, is just that’s and worrying that I’m not is what keeps [01:04:50] me up. Really.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but then like, you know, we were saying at the beginning [01:04:55] about your parents in the same way as they didn’t tell you to go study [01:05:00] often with kids, that that tends to be like, I’m always surprised here that [01:05:05] people will will at work. They’ll acknowledge that they need to hire people, but [01:05:10] at home they won’t hire people. And [01:05:15] I get it. Like, I don’t know, you get this this sort of stuff about I don’t want someone [01:05:20] else to bring up my kid sort of angle. Yeah, but, you know, I had a dedicated nanny [01:05:25] myself when I was a kid. Like, she was my nanny. My brother had another nanny. Wow. [01:05:30] There was never a moment where I thought, who’s my mom? And who’s my nanny? Like, I, but [01:05:35] I loved that woman here. Um, when she passed away, I cried, like, 30 [01:05:40] years later. Yeah. But it’s not like. Oh, my love was wasted [01:05:45] on her. She taught me some of the most important lessons I’ve ever learned. She was illiterate. Yeah. [01:05:50] And so what I’m saying is she enriched my life. At the same time, [01:05:55] my mom was probably doing something important at that time for [01:06:00] her.

Chris O’Connor: It’s hard, isn’t it? I think I think I, I have, you know, I have to, [01:06:05] uh, enjoy my journey in life. And it’s not just being a parent. [01:06:10] Like being a parent is really important to me. But doing this is really important to me, too. And it’s just finding [01:06:15] space for both is the you know, I love running this business. I’m passionate about it. [01:06:20] I love doing my dentistry. I have to and I love my kids, and I don’t want them to miss out because I’m always working. [01:06:25] It’s just finding a way to get everyone to get what they need.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: And you know, that’s that’s [01:06:30] the, you know, work life balance isn’t. Yeah. It’s just I, [01:06:35] you know, everyone’s different and everyone has a different, you know, life don’t they. But what they [01:06:40] need.

Payman Langroudi: Um, there’s no teeth in if we’re going. I mean, you’re a bit of [01:06:45] an expert on rubber dam.

Chris O’Connor: A dam.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, contact points and all that. Matrices, [01:06:50] rings and all that. So it’s a bit unfair, but I just want like a [01:06:55] what would the jazz call it? Protrusive Pearl. How what are we going to call all those? Uh Dental. [01:07:00]

Chris O’Connor: Leaders Dental.

Payman Langroudi: Dental Leaders. Uh, diamond.

Chris O’Connor: Nugget.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Nugget. [01:07:05] Nugget of let’s talk rubber dam. Just give us something that most dentists [01:07:10] don’t know or should know, or could know that that would help people.

Chris O’Connor: Pearl [01:07:15] may. Uh. Okay. This is a technique I teach. Um, I taught a [01:07:20] few people. It is, um, I call it the Teflon napkin technique. So, uh, one of the things is people [01:07:25] forget that rubber dam is a is a tool. It’s not an outcome. Just because you put [01:07:30] a rubber dam on doesn’t mean it was good. Just because you didn’t doesn’t mean it was bad. Okay, so thing. Now [01:07:35] occasionally the decay gets so deep and you’re basically at the bone level. It’s very difficult [01:07:40] to to place a dam on it and that’s fine. So what we would do is do a split dam, [01:07:45] do a gingivectomy. Okay. And then I do something called a Teflon napkin technique. So what I’m going to do is take take PTFE [01:07:50] tape and I’m going to pack that around the the margins of the tooth. And I will [01:07:55] secure it bit by bit with liquid. And you can isolate pretty much. You can do it. [01:08:00]

Payman Langroudi: Even at bone level.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. Do it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s almost like a retraction call.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, yeah you [01:08:05] like but you fan it out like a thing. But if you want to see the I’ve got quite a few cases on [01:08:10] my Instagram. Do this.

Payman Langroudi: Let me fan it out.

Chris O’Connor: How so you, you place the you place the PTFE [01:08:15] and then you kind of you imagine you are building a dam out of it. You’re like like a.

Payman Langroudi: Thing [01:08:20] I see.

Chris O’Connor: So, um, people want to isolate everything and like, this is like when [01:08:25] you do so. And then the other thing is they want to do everything adhesive, everything adhesive. Right. [01:08:30] And adhesive dentistry is amazing. But if you have all dentine margins and it’s that deep, conventional dentistry [01:08:35] is incredible. So what we would do is we’ll isolate like that. There is no chance possible [01:08:40] that you can put a matrix bond on that thing, right? So don’t worry about it. You’re going to get you’re going to etch it, bond [01:08:45] it, sandblast it, step. Take your flowable composite and bead it around the rim. Keep doing a [01:08:50] bit like I use the filter bulk fill. It holds itself quite well. This will build up. You build like [01:08:55] a perimeter and then you smash in a core. And then you prep for a vertical prep and you can fix anything like that. And [01:09:00] it’s easy and you know.

Payman Langroudi: And sort of the overhang situation, you kind of [01:09:05] you pick it back up, back to.

Chris O’Connor: Back. So you take you take a nut and you [01:09:10] zip it back and I can fix, you know, all this like faffing about with you see people [01:09:15] messing around with copper and all this kind of stuff and blah, blah, blah. Like if it’s that [01:09:20] low, right? Like part of dentistry is making it affordable and predictable and [01:09:25] doable, right? There’s nothing wrong with the Crown, like they’ve got the best clinical trials on [01:09:30] them than any other thing we possibly have. They are the best restoration we have ever developed as dentists. [01:09:35] They worked for 20 years, you know, um, and if it’s that broken down, you probably won’t have a second shot even [01:09:40] if you do a ceramic only and you think, oh, I’m amazing, I’m doing it adhesive. And I’ve saved two prisms of enamel. So, [01:09:45] um. So, yeah, split them, uh, the Teflon napkin technique free build [01:09:50] and then do a vertical knife edge prep. Um, and then you can save so many teeth. Um, [01:09:55] if you, if you do do that, is that okay? It’s not that.

Payman Langroudi: One.

Chris O’Connor: It’s not it’s [01:10:00] not an easy technique, okay? It’s not.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Intrigued by the area of Hiroden [01:10:05] sticks because.

Chris O’Connor: I again, I probably push it [01:10:10] to past the limit. But, you know, I don’t get a lot of failures and I don’t, I, [01:10:15] you know, I, I can it’s not.

Payman Langroudi: What if that tooth also needed endo. [01:10:20] How would you sort of, um, find the canals, keep them patent [01:10:25] while you build this.

Chris O’Connor: I put this on my Instagram story the other day. I did one the other day. So what you do is, is. [01:10:30] Yeah, it’s tricky because you get so always when you do any of these broken teeth you do a [01:10:35] check restore. You always say get the tooth naked, strip it right back, find the [01:10:40] canals. Right. But it’s all it’s all like flat right. It’s all at gingival level because it’s knackered. So [01:10:45] then what you do is you find the canals, you put some PTFE and there’s no a lot of time, there’s no pulp chamber [01:10:50] to put it in. So you, you, you pack it flat and again you tack it with the liquid on top and that will [01:10:55] secure it over the pulp space. Then you build that, um, you know that rim I was talking about? Thicken [01:11:00] it as far as you can to get as much dentine bonded as you can, and then you zip back, remove the PTFE, [01:11:05] you’re left in the middle and then you’re away to go. Um, I’ve got a bunch of cases. It’s something I really [01:11:10] I love doing. So I guess I like teaching and there’s loads on my Instagram page.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:11:15] used to find the canal stick files in it and then build up.

Chris O’Connor: So [01:11:20] build.

Payman Langroudi: Build.

Chris O’Connor: Build the rim.

Payman Langroudi: The rim.

Chris O’Connor: And often that’s the first appointment [01:11:25] is the build. The build is, is, is um, you know, endodontic should be restoratively [01:11:30] driven a lot of the time. The, the, the great endo guys, they’re so focussed on the endo, you know, and they [01:11:35] just work through this leaking mess and you know, everyone who’s ever taught her would [01:11:40] be like, get the truth, naked first star ability assessment and go from there. But you [01:11:45] know, the realities of life of, you know, I think doing referral [01:11:50] endodontics sometimes doesn’t lend itself to proper deconstruction and reconstruction. Um, [01:11:55] you know.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s a difference between a good endodontist and a great endodontist. Right? It’s the ones who do take [01:12:00] care of all of that.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, we have loads of endo guys come on the course, and it’s always a pleasure to have [01:12:05] them because ours is a three day course. And the last days on Anteriors and they always half asleep and I go and teach them something [01:12:10] else in the corner. You know, they don’t, but they come because they want to and we’ve got to do something about that. But they come because they want [01:12:15] to learn this stuff. And I think, good on you because you’re full, you’re excellent at that. But you [01:12:20] have recognised that as a skill you need. And and we will help you get that. And I love that. [01:12:25] I think, you know, the guys that I know who, who I respect the most are also [01:12:30] excellent at resto.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move to the next diamond.

Chris O’Connor: Another diamond that [01:12:35] was a long one.

Payman Langroudi: That was a good one. Um, on The bands. [01:12:40] Uh, rings. Yeah. Separating the matrices, [01:12:45] not matrices. Wedges, wedges.

Chris O’Connor: Wedges is critical. A [01:12:50] wedge one wedges. Wedges is so people think wedges is like incidental like put [01:12:55] the incidental with wedges. Yeah. They’ll pick they’ll they’ll just get the bands [01:13:00] or whatever. Um, the problem with them is that they’re not stiff enough. They’re too soft. So it’s why we why we all [01:13:05] started with the Trivium. They’re stiffer. But anyway, you put your band in, you can get a good result with anything. Put the band in, they put the wedge [01:13:10] in, and then they put the ring on. Right. Now, the problem often is that the wedge is sitting above [01:13:15] the cavity. Too high. Right? So you’re putting it in.

Payman Langroudi: Another very broken down tooth, [01:13:20] right?

Chris O’Connor: No. Any tooth. You put the you put the wedge in because you haven’t really selected the wedge. You’ve just [01:13:25] put it in you just this my, my go to rammed it in that that wedge [01:13:30] is then, um, it’s sitting above the cavity or it’s too high up. Right.

Payman Langroudi: So once again denting. [01:13:35]

Chris O’Connor: So it’s impeding the path of the band from the cavity bass to the adjacent tooth. We call that [01:13:40] the bridging gap, the gap between the cavity bass and the other one. And so what you want to pick is the band should be picked on [01:13:45] its curvature. So like flat bands for small spaces. But as the as the space gets bigger [01:13:50] from you go bigger. That’s why we develop the double curves and stuff so you can bridge it, right. [01:13:55] But then the wedge must sit and you want it to sit horizontally below the cavity [01:14:00] base and not impede the journey of the thing up. Because if it does, even [01:14:05] before you’ve put the ring on, you’ve got no chance with the contact. Or you will, but you’ll create a weird defect. [01:14:10] So the first thing you do is you finish your cavity prep. You do what we call the wedge check. [01:14:15] You place the wedge in, all right? And if it’s not sitting below, then you’ve got to do a couple of things. You either trim [01:14:20] the wedge down so that it doesn’t poke up too high. You trim the gum down so that it sits lower [01:14:25] or you change your technique. So you’ll do it in two stages rather than one. You use one band [01:14:30] to build the first bit, or we’ll use or maybe we’ll use like a special low profile wedge, like the [01:14:35] clear wedges, but that that’s critical. And so wedge selection drives everything.

Payman Langroudi: The job of [01:14:40] the wedge.

Payman Langroudi: There is just to push the band against the tooth.

Chris O’Connor: Well that’s a good.

Payman Langroudi: One because the, [01:14:45] the, the job is not to separate the tooth of that wedge. Right. Because you’ve got the ring. That’s the ring [01:14:50] does that. Right.

Chris O’Connor: Again this is a good one because when people do these matrices or whatever they they [01:14:55] the common conception is that the wedge is there to seal the margins sometimes. Whereas [01:15:00] like so like you were doing your dental school use equivalent in your wooden wedge, you [01:15:05] would expect that the job of the wedge there is to create the separation. Right? So we would what [01:15:10] we we teach a lot of ringless technique. So you place the band, you get that really nice solid wooden [01:15:15] wedge. And we know from trials that you can get around 60 microns of separation from a wooden wedge. Yeah. [01:15:20] So you can then overcome it. You don’t need the ring actually because the ring causes most of the trouble. So [01:15:25] you just do.

Payman Langroudi: Well, I thought you were talking about a case where you were using a ring.

Chris O’Connor: Well, you can, but. But then. [01:15:30] So then if you cannot get the separation from the wedge because sometimes you can’t like, let’s say I [01:15:35] have to use one of those low profile bio clear wedges. Well, that’s not going to do it. So I then would build a hip of [01:15:40] composite, take the bio clear out and put a wooden wedge in.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: Or we [01:15:45] could put a um another way of doing it is you can then add a separating ring. But when you put that separating [01:15:50] ring on, you need to really it’s not enough because they’re spring loaded. These things, you don’t [01:15:55] want it to then deform the band. And that’s what they do so often.

Payman Langroudi: That’s why you develop the one where you can [01:16:00] adjust the.

Chris O’Connor: So we did what we did was we noticed this was a problem. So two strategies [01:16:05] one go ringless, which is cheap and easy. That’s what we taught a lot. And then we were like, yeah, it’s good. But just sometimes [01:16:10] you maybe need a little bit more or a little bit to pull around. And then we developed the ring [01:16:15] and but the I mean again we’ve published paper on that papilla management, me [01:16:20] and Ollie, um, when I was still in academia um which you can is free to find and we um [01:16:25] and we published on the matrix deformations as well. I think it’s the, [01:16:30] the next wave of of matrixing in my in my mind is is this? [01:16:35] We went through this period of getting nickel titanium rings around 2008 with Trident, [01:16:40] and everyone’s like, oh, these are great. But actually they ended up with these weird square shaped restorations [01:16:45] because they were deforming. And then now we’re getting more nuanced with how we [01:16:50] do the separation.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, do you know of Simon McDonald?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah [01:16:55] I do. And I had a meet with him.

Payman Langroudi: Was he your hero recently?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, a bit like, you know, like, [01:17:00] um, I think we tiny bit touched on it, like I was. I’d been a bit like a a bit like [01:17:05] an alcoholic with a pub, you know, I love, like, I’ve been on yours. I’ve been all over your site before [01:17:10] I was in the business. I checked every product, everything. I know what everyone’s selling and I have since I graduated. [01:17:15] So. So the first thing I bought as an associate, as a PhD, [01:17:20] it was a was a Trident kit, £250 with the with the V ring. Yeah. [01:17:25] And Jason Smithson’s got his picture and I’m looking at that going I want to do that, I want to do that. And I probably [01:17:30] spent the next eight years trying to do that and failing. You know, and I got, you know. Yeah. Exactly [01:17:35] that it was it was it was huge. And it was all around them, you know, and it was this and it’s [01:17:40] a big influence for incidental huge because I would go on that site and not only did they have the, [01:17:45] the products, but they also had the price for normal people. You know, we didn’t have the accounts to log in, which [01:17:50] is something we’ve copied. And then they also had, um.

Payman Langroudi: Are you not worried a patient goes there [01:17:55] and sees the price from the GDC perspective?

Chris O’Connor: Uh, I’m not [01:18:00] Payman, but now you’re making me feel like I should know. There’s there’s plenty that you can so.

Payman Langroudi: Well, in a way, like, [01:18:05] let’s imagine we did that and we had the dentist price of a bleaching kit, and then the patient goes [01:18:10] on there and says, why is my dentist charging me.

Chris O’Connor: 600 about it? £650, you [01:18:15] can find the like. There’s a lot you can get it on now. I think at the time though, that was up to them. [01:18:20] Did you could get the prices. They were always up and I just remember that being like huge. I think sometimes [01:18:25] principles get so frustrated with associates not knowing the price, but sometimes they don’t have access to the price [01:18:30] of stuff, you know. But the other thing it did was it had like technique guides and stuff you [01:18:35] don’t have on the thing. And I always think that’s a big part of the role of a distributor, is [01:18:40] sourcing good products, which I trusted them to do because they had they [01:18:45] they could pick a product, right? They they could pick a product.

Payman Langroudi: That was a great they.

Chris O’Connor: Could pick a product. They, you know, John Maloney [01:18:50] is a big pal of mine now. You know, they picked a product. They knew what they were going to sell. They had [01:18:55] they had a really good layout for website, which a lot of people didn’t at the time. The prices you could get, but [01:19:00] they also taught people how to use them. Right. And it was a big influence on me. So those trident [01:19:05] rings I learned I learned a lot of dentistry from reading. And the other one was, um, QED. [01:19:10] I got really into Endo at the time, and they’d have these technique guides with the products, you [01:19:15] know, and I would, I would read that was where I learned I almost more than courses. I would read these [01:19:20] product guides. Still to this day, I read religiously, read all the guides.

Payman Langroudi: There have been [01:19:25] QED been around for ages, man.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. And they had, they had a, they had like a it was like the, you know, the um the [01:19:30] way you thermal backfill. Gp yeah. Like I learned that from just reading all [01:19:35] their bumf, you know, and um, and that’s part of the role. Right. It’s part of the role. You [01:19:40] should get the get people to get the most out of the instrument or the equipment itself.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [01:19:45] move on to the darker part of the pod. We like to talk about [01:19:50] mistakes, clinical errors.

Chris O’Connor: I’ve got plenty of those.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What comes to mind? What [01:19:55] comes to mind when I say clinical error? Something people can learn from.

Chris O’Connor: Well, something that changed my career completely [01:20:00] and and broke me for a long time was I was not long out. I think it was my first year as an [01:20:05] associate. I’d gone down to Sheffield. I hadn’t worked out. I came back with my tail between my legs, and [01:20:10] I was working this NHS job and rushing, rushing, rushing. And we had this [01:20:15] kid. And, you know, in that mindset of mine, we’re going to do it right. We’re not necessarily going [01:20:20] to look after the person, which again, I’m ashamed of now when I think back. But it had [01:20:25] this kid in did his check fluoride varnish nurse put it on back of my glove way too much. [01:20:30] Um, I went to place it. It dripped down. You didn’t have safety glasses on, and the fluoride varnish went into [01:20:35] his eye.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, goodness.

Chris O’Connor: Um, and then, you know, that’s bad [01:20:40] in itself, but these things happen. But the way I managed it afterwards, again, [01:20:45] you know, I’m ashamed of. Um, I get I was obsessed with getting the next patient [01:20:50] in not running late. I should have just. I know this is what I would do now. I had a similar problem [01:20:55] recently. You just anyone’s listening. You just close your book down, you know, [01:21:00] sort the problem out. If the people complain about you running late or can’t do it, it’s irrelevant.

Payman Langroudi: Because what happens [01:21:05] when fluoride varnish goes in your eye? What happens?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. So I because I was panicking, [01:21:10] I was like, oh it’d be fine and rinsed it out. And then I kind of, to be honest with you, I just sort of ushered them out of the door [01:21:15] really, rather than taking control and sorting it. Yeah. Um, you know, and then they, they [01:21:20] went to the emergency eye emergency clinic, but not from my referral. From they went and [01:21:25] they rinsed it out. It was fine, you know, but you know.

Payman Langroudi: Probably complain. [01:21:30]

Chris O’Connor: I got yeah got sued for it. And in hindsight, you know, you deserve it’s [01:21:35] hard to say because it’s horrible being sued.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: But yeah, um, I [01:21:40] think if what they might have sued me anyway if it happened, but if I dealt with it better, I [01:21:45] might not have been. Yeah, but I probably I probably deserved it. And it was like a [01:21:50] couple of grand payout. But then as you know, you indemnity then goes up through the roof. Yeah. And [01:21:55] it changed me.

Payman Langroudi: The heartache man.

Chris O’Connor: It changed me. It changed me because [01:22:00] the patients weren’t people I wanted to help. They were people I wanted to protect [01:22:05] myself from.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: And that’s taken a while, like, longer than I would like to get rid of [01:22:10] that. Um. And now it’s not like that. I don’t feel like that.

Payman Langroudi: But I bet you never have a patient who’s [01:22:15] not wearing eye protection now, right?

Chris O’Connor: They’re all wearing eye protection. And the fluoride varnish is.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so interesting because [01:22:20] you have learned that lesson because you went through that pain. Do you reckon [01:22:25] like people listening now will all learn that lesson? You have to kind of go through pain to learn [01:22:30] actual lessons. But but you know what I mean. Like, I’d never even thought about fluoride varnish getting [01:22:35] someone’s life like it was.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, it was like, um, I mean, I [01:22:40] was I wasn’t feeling that confident in my dentistry, and it really, I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Knocked [01:22:45] you back early.

Chris O’Connor: People, people reach out. Yeah. And I think I was, like, one of the first people to get sued of [01:22:50] of my of my cohort, you know, and so I was kind of like I was really quite good at like, [01:22:55] you know, I was pretty good at dental school. I was quite, you know, I took my dentistry [01:23:00] quite seriously. And it was like this blot on, on, on me [01:23:05] and.

Payman Langroudi: On your record.

Chris O’Connor: And I and I, you know, I felt that a lot, you know, and [01:23:10] it took a long time to get over that. Um, a long time.

Payman Langroudi: What was the emotion? Shame.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, [01:23:15] I think so. Definitely like looking back at the time.

Payman Langroudi: How come you’re so cool talking about it now? Because you’re [01:23:20] over it. It’s been that sort of thing.

Chris O’Connor: It’s been 12 years or 13 years. Like time and [01:23:25] and reflection. And and the person I was back then, you know, as I said [01:23:30] to you, like work is.

Payman Langroudi: Defining.

Chris O’Connor: You work. And this is [01:23:35] is critical work defines how I feel about myself at [01:23:40] times in my life. Far too much so. And you, you build like some people [01:23:45] get their self-worth from going to the gym or from there or whatever [01:23:50] it is, or earning loads of money. Mine. Mine was being excellent at my job. And so to [01:23:55] to to not have that was massive for me. Um, you know, and um, [01:24:00] now I understand that that’s something in me, but I am, [01:24:05] like, much more in control of that. You know what I mean? And you’re like, it’s [01:24:10] a part of my life, and it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Perfect, dude, because the the learning point from the [01:24:15] clinic perspective was make sure there are glasses on, but the learning is the learning point from [01:24:20] your own personal perspective was don’t 100% invest your worth in any [01:24:25] one thing because.

Chris O’Connor: That’s 12 years. That was a lot of therapy. That wasn’t. But yes, [01:24:30] in reflection, but the learning point from the the stuff’s going to go wrong. Right? Yeah. That’s [01:24:35] that is but what you do is you don’t worry about the next patient, you worry about that patient and you just close [01:24:40] it down. Like, now if I have an issue, just close, like, you know, if someone has a problem, I’ll [01:24:45] work through lunch, I’ll work late. I will close patients. Like, we’re going to sort this problem out like [01:24:50] it’s never I’m never not going to sort that out ever again. Like I did it then. [01:24:55] And there was another time where I did similar. And like that is my I never, [01:25:00] ever let them leave without doing and let them see that you have done everything you humanly [01:25:05] could to resolve it. Um, and then, you know, if it still gets sued, then at [01:25:10] least you can be. I did everything I could.

Payman Langroudi: So even though I like that one because it’s was interesting and different. [01:25:15] I kind of want another one, and I want one either.

Chris O’Connor: I’m quite the other time I got [01:25:20] sued.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, no not necessarily. What I’m really interested in is someone like you. [01:25:25] In a way, you’re having to push the boundaries of [01:25:30] treatment. Like in this way, for instance.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I want [01:25:35] to hear about a time when you pushed it, you thought maybe it’s going to work and it didn’t work.

Chris O’Connor: Um. [01:25:40]

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, we’re very we’re shy to talk about that. But [01:25:45] all of progress happens because of pushing something. Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: Um, I’ve, I’ve [01:25:50] got one coming up. I mean, like, I think I think to give you the example you want, it has [01:25:55] to be something recent. There’s ones where I was didn’t know what I was doing, and I was, you know, [01:26:00] and it was wrong because I didn’t know I got, you know, I’ve got one at the minute and I’m not [01:26:05] sure it’s going to go right, but I’m trepidatious. So this guy came and [01:26:10] he’s referred and he’d been trying to get someone to do his teeth for, like, two years. Been to the dental hospital [01:26:15] twice. Been around like no one would touch his teeth. And he basically was ex-alcoholic. And he’s got he basically [01:26:20] had really collapsed by very few teeth left. And the teeth that are left had quite bad root caries. And [01:26:25] I did all my assessment and I was like, it’s going to be really hard this, you know, but we can we’ll [01:26:30] crown every we’ll crown them, you know, um, I’ll do the digital design and we’ll do some, uh, because [01:26:35] he was miserable. This dentures. Awful because it’s like really over closing. So I was like, we’re going to open [01:26:40] the bite, but you have so few teeth left, and I don’t know about you, but when you do [01:26:45] these ones, you open the bite. You kind of are really try hard to have tooth support because if they don’t, [01:26:50] the whole denture thing is just difficult. Like they’ve got nowhere to kind of go to, if you know what I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Plus, [01:26:55] they can’t take their dentures out and.

Chris O’Connor: If they take them out, they’re nowhere.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Chris O’Connor: So so [01:27:00] anyway, this upper, this upper left canine is the only like it’s the only thing I’ve got on this [01:27:05] left hand side. So this is this, this, this, this treasure from, you know, I need to look after it. And then. And [01:27:10] then the bottom. The lower left. Because his jaw is such. Which is why he’s had the problems. The [01:27:15] canine and the premolar don’t hit this thing. So I did this, like, slightly off the wall angled [01:27:20] crown. Yeah. So I’m like, so I do this wax up where I pull these across like that and [01:27:25] get the. So the upper canine is then loading vertically. Right. So I plan it all, wax it all, [01:27:30] do all the transfers. And I’m now at the point and everything was ten times [01:27:35] worse than I thought. So every time I did a crown, every single one had massive root caries like [01:27:40] insane. So I’ve done all these like. And everyone’s taking me longer. And then I the [01:27:45] one tooth that didn’t have decay was this upper seven. And when I do this scan and I walk around [01:27:50] the back of it on the scan, I can see there is massive root caries in the back of this. So I’m like, [01:27:55] I’ll crown that as well. No charge. I’ve missed it. Oh my God, this case has already cost [01:28:00] me a fortune. Anyway, the thing I didn’t assess one of the things was the two, the upper canine, [01:28:05] that it’s taking everything. It’s actually also kind of grade one plus mobile.

Payman Langroudi: No. [01:28:10]

Chris O’Connor: And so and so it’s just it’s just going to get I [01:28:15] need to get the work done to get the denture in to stop it overloading. But everything’s taking [01:28:20] me so long that it’s overloading. And so it’s getting more. And I’m like, I think it’s I’m just not sure [01:28:25] it’s going to hold up. Um, and so.

Payman Langroudi: I love this, that I really wanted to hear something like this.

Chris O’Connor: Is this [01:28:30] right? So at the minute, like I charged him a bit, but nowhere near enough in hindsight. And [01:28:35] like. And the other thing, this guy’s got a very complex medical history. He can’t have implants. So, um, [01:28:40] so, yeah, like, uh, to be confirmed, but to be to be finished. [01:28:45] But, uh, that one is, um, you know, I’ve not done anything wrong. And in a [01:28:50] way, no one else was touch it and I’ve gone there. But I’m trepidatious about this, [01:28:55] and I’ve got some backups. The way I plan, I always try and plan really hard for. I’m very big in, like when [01:29:00] my work fails, what are we going to do next? So I’ve got like extra rest and clasps where I could, but there’s just [01:29:05] nothing else on that upper left, So.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes that’s a situation.

Chris O’Connor: It’s just the way. Yeah. So I don’t I don’t [01:29:10] I don’t regret it. I think I probably just under uh I didn’t you [01:29:15] know, the learning point I have from that is now I very, very much will check [01:29:20] mobility assessment, I think, I think when I did the planning.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t spot it early enough. [01:29:25]

Chris O’Connor: I didn’t even if I’d seen that it was that mobile, I probably would have done [01:29:30] the same. But at least it would have. At least I would have been more forewarned.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s. I like that one a lot. [01:29:35] I like that one a lot because we were all doing stuff like that at times, and [01:29:40] it’s when it’s a thin line. Yeah. And, and, and obviously the communication piece is very important with [01:29:45] the patient about that instead of setting expectations.

Chris O’Connor: And the alternative [01:29:50] really would be to clear them and do a full complete.

Payman Langroudi: And by the way, 20 years ago he would have been [01:29:55] in complete, you know, like yeah. And 100% by that point.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. And the plan, the way I’ve [01:30:00] done it all is to try and avoid him having a lower density. He’s found the denture so difficult and to keep him in an upper crown because I [01:30:05] thought he’d have a better quality of life. And now. But then, you know, it’s cost him quite a lot [01:30:10] because of it’s much more complex to keep the teeth and work around them than it is to take them out and do [01:30:15] a complete. And now I’m like, have I done him a service by with [01:30:20] all this? I mean, I will cover it if if it goes wrong, it’s my fault, I will cover it, but I it [01:30:25] still I.

Payman Langroudi: Think we beat ourselves up, man, because, you know, the intent is the most important thing. [01:30:30] Yeah. Like, what was your intent? Your intent was to do your best thing for this guy. And you know that, of [01:30:35] course, we’re all perfectionists, and we want everything to go perfectly. But, you know, that’s [01:30:40] that’s the way it is.

Chris O’Connor: I mean, I’m very fortunate now in that I can charge enough on the ones that go well that I can. Yeah, [01:30:45] I, I and I again.

Payman Langroudi: What do you charge.

Chris O’Connor: For a rehab. [01:30:50] Yeah. Uh, they’re usually between like my, my fees are like. It’s like I don’t do implants. So they go [01:30:55] elsewhere. So for the rehabs, it’d be like 10 to 20 k, which probably is not that much down here, [01:31:00] but up in Newcastle. That’s that’s pretty good going money.

Payman Langroudi: What about an error you made [01:31:05] in incidental?

Chris O’Connor: Um.

Payman Langroudi: I made so many, I think.

Chris O’Connor: I think the [01:31:10] ones that are incidental are like, the ones that are are. There are like ones I’d find hard to [01:31:15] share because they’re they’re like. They’re like, um, they’re like, uh, [01:31:20] I mean, they’re not mistakes, really. I think, you know, one of the things was, I [01:31:25] mean, it’s a bit private. Um, I’m trying to think the [01:31:30] one I’m thinking of is is a bit private. Really? Um, I think, uh, [01:31:35] what I would say is I didn’t know anything about running a business. When I got into internal, [01:31:40] I, um, and I took some advice, like, or [01:31:45] got people involved, um, early on before I knew anything. And it’s [01:31:50] taken some, you know, disentangling from that. Um, so things like, [01:31:55] you know, giving shares quite early on, you know, whereas now I would very much [01:32:00] be like, you can earn those shares over a period of time. When I see when when you contribute for the work and things, [01:32:05] I think that’s um, that’s something accountants as well, like, you [01:32:10] know, I took some advice from a very reputable company and, you know, it wasn’t the best advice [01:32:15] in hindsight. I mean, we’ve had so many company restructures pay. I mean, we set up a holding company, [01:32:20] we’ve closed the holding company, we’ve opened another holding company. Like, I don’t know what I’m doing. You take advice and then in hindsight, [01:32:25] you’re like, you’ve given me the worst advice possible, you know? And it cost me like ten grand to undo this [01:32:30] company structure that I set up there. The things I think I’ve.

Payman Langroudi: You look at business [01:32:35] skill in the same way as you look at Dental skill or not. [01:32:40] I mean, because because, you know, that question of like having a mentor.

Chris O’Connor: Um, a good one, isn’t [01:32:45] it?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. No, I wish I had a mentor, a business mentor. I now [01:32:50] do I now do.

Chris O’Connor: You a paid one though.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But do you.

Chris O’Connor: Know what this is? What?

Payman Langroudi: I [01:32:55] wish I’d done it earlier. Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: Well, maybe.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, you go on Dental courses, you research [01:33:00] stuff, you watch what other people are doing. As a dentist. But then in business, I didn’t [01:33:05] go on any business courses. I muddled my way through. I made massive errors.

Chris O’Connor: Massive errors there. [01:33:10] The things aren’t they? And and like, um, maybe like the small print of some of the distribution deals, like [01:33:15] we got bit burnt on some things that like I thought would be covered with the manufacturer and like they cover, [01:33:20] they don’t send you a new product when it breaks, they send you a fuse and you have to spend [01:33:25] three hours dismantling and put the fuse in. You know, we’ve had that like that, that burnt because but [01:33:30] it was just naivety. I didn’t know that’s how it works. I mean, if you buy from China, that’s how it works. The warranty [01:33:35] is a warranty for the part and not for the product, and you are then charged to fix it. So [01:33:40] we’ve had to build we do repairs. We have our own repair room. We’ve taught ourselves that it’s a big part [01:33:45] of our business is repair, um, if we’re going to sell it, different things. You do know, we’re quite. [01:33:50] Yeah. We’ve got we’ve got a lot. We’ve got a lot of like. Well and go back around to one of your [01:33:55] early questions was when torvum with the Russia thing happened, I was like, well, the business is gone. We’re [01:34:00] dead. We’re dead in water. I’ve left my job. We are dead. And because we’re going to [01:34:05] not be able to import anymore. Now, as it turned out, we have been able to when there’s a tariff and, you know, and some people [01:34:10] won’t buy our products because of that and.

Payman Langroudi: Won’t buy.

Chris O’Connor: Them. Yeah. And by the way, like because they’re from Russia. [01:34:15]

Payman Langroudi: They won’t buy them.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. Which I absolutely respect. But for [01:34:20] me, what’s.

Payman Langroudi: It got to do with just because they are from Russia?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. But you got to understand [01:34:25] from my point of view, the guys from Torvum are my friends. I have worked with them to develop products. I’m very good friends [01:34:30] with Oleg, who runs the business. Like I can’t like on a personal level, just [01:34:35] dropping them. Well, one I wouldn’t want to. And we love their products. And two, my [01:34:40] whole business is on that, so I’d have to walk away from it all. So I [01:34:45] get why people might question the morality, and people have done that to me. But I [01:34:50] mean, if you were in my shoes, it’s quite hard to do that. And and I don’t want and I didn’t want. [01:34:55] And I made that decision.

Payman Langroudi: It’s ridiculous man. Like, it’s a bit like saying, uh, my Saudi [01:35:00] distributor will stop buying from me because the UK backed Israel [01:35:05] in Gaza. What the hell? Where do things get? Where? Where do things ridiculous?

Chris O’Connor: Where do things get made? They get [01:35:10] made where the labour is cheap and they often have difficult. They have difficult, you know. You know, [01:35:15] if you buy it from China, you have genuinely not sure where it really, really gets made. You [01:35:20] don’t. And the supply supply chains are so complex. You look at some of the, um, [01:35:25] you know, like the face creams or the I don’t know, the products are, but there’s something you’re not supposed to use, but or they have [01:35:30] to be sourced, but like, there’s an absolute jungle out there. And [01:35:35] but anyway, back to the ToeJam was we once we’d done that when we sort of came out the other [01:35:40] side one, we bought a year’s supply of stock in case it got blown in case we couldn’t [01:35:45] get it anymore.

Payman Langroudi: Had to do that.

Chris O’Connor: And and we bought lots of stock and we crippled us. And then [01:35:50] two, we diversified. So we tried to find you. We were just happy doing that. [01:35:55] Products. We then got into endodontics Motors. We’ve pushed into [01:36:00] Handpieces handpiece repairs has become big. The training centre, I suppose hiring that out, running it. [01:36:05] We diversified to de-risk ourselves. Um. And I’m glad we did. Really? It’s [01:36:10] been all right. And and I quite like it.

Payman Langroudi: I find it difficult, like bringing in new, new items [01:36:15] insomuch as I feel like if you do, you know. Have you heard of [01:36:20] the restaurant?

Chris O’Connor: No. It’s, uh. Is that here? Is it fancy?

Payman Langroudi: It’s. [01:36:25] Well, it’s all over the world, but the. It’s not that fancy. It’s. It’s steak [01:36:30] and chips and sauce. Special sauce. Special sauce. Yeah. [01:36:35] And that’s the point. People go for the sauce, okay? And there’s no choice. That’s all they make. That’s all [01:36:40] they do. Yeah. You can. You can say, uh, well done. Medium or rare. [01:36:45] You can’t say medium well, medium rare. You can’t say that. It’s just that’s the only question they ask you. And [01:36:50] that’s what they bring. They do one thing very, very, very, very well.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I know that idea. [01:36:55] And I again, when I said to you about the the teaching side and the restorative [01:37:00] side of our business, and should I just focus on the core, you know, that that I just.

Chris O’Connor: I feel [01:37:05] like one feeds the other. So like, why did we get into so we developed our own range of, of hand instruments. [01:37:10] And I know you don’t like copy, but a lot of it is like they’re a copy of, you know, which one can we say?

Payman Langroudi: Which [01:37:15] one did you copy.

Chris O’Connor: Can we say the copy of LM? Um, and we did them. We did them [01:37:20] originally with the original handle, and I got a legal cease and desist. So we the only thing they have a. Anyway, [01:37:25] this is probably beyond. But we had to change the handle and a few things, and [01:37:30] then they’re fine now, but we developed them because I wanted them on the courses.

Payman Langroudi: We didn’t really develop them. You copied them. [01:37:35] Yeah, well you.

Chris O’Connor: Say that.

Payman Langroudi: But.

Chris O’Connor: Then so we we copy them. But then, you [01:37:40] know, you go to like 20 manufacturers to test them. You find them, you get the quality control where you want. We developed, [01:37:45] we designed the new handles ourselves. And then we also Design different tips, [01:37:50] so some of them are unique tips.

Payman Langroudi: Will you undercut LMR?

Chris O’Connor: Oh yeah. We’re like like we’re like £20 [01:37:55] Inc. VAT for an instrument.

Payman Langroudi: Wouldn’t it piss you off if someone did that to you?

Chris O’Connor: Uh, [01:38:00] I think I think it would be pretty. Um, what’s the word?

Payman Langroudi: And also par [01:38:05] for the course.

Chris O’Connor: No, it’d be pretty. It’d be pretty, like, disingenuous of me if I did. And people have copied stuff. [01:38:10] People have copied people copied my lectures all the time. They steal all the time off us. They steal my techniques. They steal [01:38:15] my technique. But, you know, I mean, that’s life, you know, um, that’s how it is. And, you know, [01:38:20] there’s things if you want to protect it with a pattern, you can because a lot of money. I just think, um, that’s kind of [01:38:25] how it is. And like. Yeah. So, so the rubber down clamps or the things that I’ve developed, you know, but [01:38:30] then, you know, it’s very difficult to beat us on price because we come in as low as we can.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:38:35] On that subject of, uh, the core. Yeah. Like look at look at a line. [01:38:40] Yeah. They, they, I mean the, [01:38:45] the valuation of that company. I mean, you can imagine they’ve got a few dollars. [01:38:50] Yeah, a line could have done bloody everything. Yeah, yeah, a line could do toothpaste. [01:38:55] A line could do whatever they could do. They could do anything in dentistry. They could [01:39:00] do dental chairs if they wanted to by a long way. The biggest company in dentistry right now. Yeah. Um, but [01:39:05] they do Invisalign. Yeah, but.

Chris O’Connor: We don’t.

Payman Langroudi: So we.

Chris O’Connor: Don’t, do we? [01:39:10] Do we limit to class one products in medical devices? Like, I try to do things that don’t [01:39:15] go out of date. So we and we we’ve got a reasonable sized warehouse but it’s not massive. So [01:39:20] I’m not going to start doing gloves or, you know, things that take up a lot of space like we have. And [01:39:25] we’re not we’re not trying. There already is a Henry Schein. There already is a dental sky. We’re not [01:39:30] going to do that. We’re never going to be able to do that. So we’re trying to hand select products that mainly associates wants to be honest. Like [01:39:35] kind of our target is maybe younger. We we obviously try and sell to everyone, but really [01:39:40] we’re trying to target those early years. What do you need to get good at. You need to get good at direct composites. You need [01:39:45] to have a decent set of sexual bands and you need to have photography. Photography. So we try and we try and [01:39:50] stock because that’s the market. I know that’s I’ve spent my whole career teaching people of that age. That’s who [01:39:55] I know. So we try and give them like what they need. And one of the things with the website, you’re adding extra [01:40:00] product thing we try to have like one of of we pick [01:40:05] our favourite composite polishing paste. Right. I don’t really want seven [01:40:10] different ones to pick from because it just boggles people. There’s a thing like if you get too much choice, [01:40:15] you get paralysed.

Payman Langroudi: Which one do you like?

Chris O’Connor: Uh, we use the Eve polishing paste. [01:40:20]

Payman Langroudi: We like the Eve one. Yeah, it’s good value.

Chris O’Connor: It’s like £15. And, um, it does a pretty good job.

Payman Langroudi: From Eve. [01:40:25]

Chris O’Connor: Uh.

Payman Langroudi: Through their UK distributor.

Chris O’Connor: So this is this is. These are delicate [01:40:30] questions. Payman.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t want to answer. I’ve got one other question here that you might not want to answer.

Chris O’Connor: You know, supply [01:40:35] chains are hard. Like, you know, we have we have we have an official line through.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Um, I’ve [01:40:40] thought about this question. You know, you don’t have to answer. You don’t have to answer. What’s the question you [01:40:45] didn’t want me to ask you?

Chris O’Connor: Well, I’m not bothered.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:40:50] an interesting idea.

Chris O’Connor: But I’m an open book. I guess I guess a little bit. [01:40:55] The Russia thing with the bands, I find. I find I’m sensitive on that.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t think that’s. I know why [01:41:00] you are. Because. Because Russia got demonised before now we’re. Trump has changed anyway, right? I [01:41:05] had.

Chris O’Connor: This guy. I had this guy I won’t mention again. But he, he he, he has a quite a big profile [01:41:10] on Instagram and he, he like I don’t know why, but he really took against the company for no reason. I [01:41:15] could see.

Payman Langroudi: Based on this Russia thing.

Chris O’Connor: No on, no no on I don’t know what it was. I think it’s maybe because [01:41:20] we didn’t give him overtures when we took on Trivium range because he, he was using [01:41:25] I don’t know what the problem was, but he, he wrote like quite a lot of, like, quite inflammatory stuff on Instagram about [01:41:30] us and was against like kind of our integrity, which, you [01:41:35] know, I have to say is important to me. Um, just I mean, yeah, it is it is important [01:41:40] to me, um, you know, and I think I found that deeply [01:41:45] upsetting, you know? Really? Was that that he doesn’t know me at all. [01:41:50] You know, he doesn’t know what we’re doing. He hasn’t. He didn’t pick up a call. He didn’t. He never gave me an opportunity [01:41:55] to. To say what? Like what his beef was. And let me explain myself. And I found [01:42:00] that. And then it was, like blocked away straight away from, from his Instagram. You know, I couldn’t see anything. And [01:42:05] he carried on. And every so often he will write something unpleasant and he might be um. And one of them [01:42:10] was when Russia did that thing and he, and he was like, well, you know, and he kind of wrote, [01:42:15] I’ll never use Russian products and sort of attacked us in that way. And and it was again, it was like this kind of, again. [01:42:20]

Payman Langroudi: Virtue signalling.

Chris O’Connor: But it felt it felt directed at me [01:42:25] in my integrity. Yeah. And, um, you know, no one’s. [01:42:30] No, no, nobody’s perfect at all. But I do try my best.

[TRANSITION]: Um.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [01:42:35] the best lecture you’ve ever been to? What comes to mind?

Chris O’Connor: Easy [01:42:40] one. Um. Pascal Venuti, 2015. Uh, the. [01:42:45] In Newcastle, they have a group called ni PD. Uh, they’re like a private, uh, study [01:42:50] group. I’m part of it now. I wasn’t at the time because I was a very poor academic and definitely not private. [01:42:55] And, um, they got him over because Oli Bailey, who I teach with, was became friendly with him. [01:43:00] Um, and they got him to come over and do it himself, to come and do [01:43:05] a.

Payman Langroudi: Face to face.

Chris O’Connor: Face to face two day. There’s probably about 40 of us there. And the man just [01:43:10] hit that clicker like so fast. He was just case after case after case [01:43:15] after case after case after case case class. And like, it’s weird because I love he’s quite, um, [01:43:20] I don’t know if you follow him on, but he’s quite, like, controversial, I think. But at the time he’s isolation, [01:43:25] he’s matrixing. And like, all of this kind of bio using more curved bands, [01:43:30] like a lot of that we learned from him. I mean, he pioneered I really think that tomorrow’s group pioneered stuff. [01:43:35] I mean, we, you know, my check as well. Success stairs. You know, we you know, [01:43:40] on our website, there’s a whole bit where we talk about how much influence they were on us and, um, [01:43:45] you know, and like, and then, you know, and at the time, all the vertical crowns and bits [01:43:50] and bobs was different people. But and weirdly, he seems to have totally gone off composite [01:43:55] and he’s all, he’s always like ceramic composites, rubbish and only ceramic. But at the time [01:44:00] there was this lovely class twos. And then he also did a bit on vertical preps, and it was weird because it was the best [01:44:05] lecture and it was really fast, quite difficult to understand, but worth the effort. [01:44:10] And it was and I just lapped it up. I was like taking in every minute. And then it [01:44:15] was funny because I best lecture ever and I was speaking to people and they were like, awful, couldn’t follow it. It’s [01:44:20] way too fast, you know, didn’t give any time to explain it. And I was like, absolutely loved it. And [01:44:25] then that day I bought all the bio clear, you know, bio clear bands. I went on this next [01:44:30] part of my journey with, with like, you know, I’m always.

Payman Langroudi: It was it was instrumental [01:44:35] in your actual career.

Chris O’Connor: So like matrices. Matrix bands I think I have, [01:44:40] I have almost every band ever made. Um, it’s like one of the things I’ve got a little bit of a hobby for [01:44:45] is like historical dentistry, and I have like, all these crazy old I just love it, I love, I [01:44:50] love, I quite, I feel quite, I don’t know, like as if dentistry is like this. [01:44:55] Like we’re custodians of a period of dentistry. Mhm. Like [01:45:00] I feel like when I worked at uni especially a big driver was kind of passing that flame and, [01:45:05] but also remembering all of like whenever I lecture I always try and give the history like the history of resin bonded [01:45:10] bridges, the history of why we developed zirconia or the iterations like, you know, we never [01:45:15] should we really ever forget cap tech crowns and their place in history. You know what I mean? Like, but like [01:45:20] I remember it better when I know that journey. And so matrixing, I’ve [01:45:25] got this lovely text that I used to make my master’s students read, which was like this tome from 1980s [01:45:30] with all and it’s just shows you all the bands we use now, like sectional bands, were developed [01:45:35] in 1956. The Paladins, you know, there’s nothing new under the sun. Payman saddle bands. They’re in this [01:45:40] text from 1920s. It’s.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your favourite Dental book?

Chris O’Connor: Uh, I [01:45:45] find Dental books a bit challenging sometimes. Attention span. Uh, I think [01:45:50] the one that’s had the biggest influence on my career would be Dawson’s TMJ smile, design, incredibly hard book, [01:45:55] incredible slog. Um, but, uh, every time I go back to it, I learn [01:46:00] something new. Um, the guy was, you know, again, in the context [01:46:05] of the time he was doing it, the guy was a monster. He was, you know, [01:46:10] and yeah, I mean, he’s changed, like, what an impact. And, [01:46:15] um. Yeah. And you look at the the cases at the back and you’re like, Holy moly. You know, you wouldn’t do it like that now.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:46:20] he was ahead of his time. Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: Way ahead of his time. And like again.

Payman Langroudi: If time and money weren’t of any [01:46:25] concern at all. Um, which course would you jump into tomorrow?

Chris O’Connor: Well, I [01:46:30] well, I’ve got two. Yeah. I’ve got two answers for you. One, if I could do anything, I’d go back [01:46:35] and retrain as a lab tech and do it. I would, just not, for I just would love it. I just [01:46:40] love to learn it. Yeah, I would love that. I taught myself quite a lot. I’d do all my own planning, [01:46:45] but I would love that. And then the other one, I suppose, is slightly related, because next month I’m going. I’ve managed [01:46:50] to get myself on the Exocad trainer course. I’m going to become a certified Exocad trainer. [01:46:55] As part of our course, we’re going to have 20 Exocad licenses because I want [01:47:00] to use it as a teaching aid. So it’s massive investment, but I’m the chance [01:47:05] to go. And what I would really love is to get to know the people and to kind of get, get, [01:47:10] get involved a little bit in development because there’s things on the Exocad. It’s an amazing program, but the [01:47:15] small things you’re like, if you could just do that, it makes such a difference. And I think my experience with companies, if you can get [01:47:20] in there a little bit, you could start to, you know, just have a little bit of companies love it.

Payman Langroudi: Companies love it.

Chris O’Connor: Actually [01:47:25] they do. Once you’re in.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: They they are so busy you have to knock on the door [01:47:30] a lot, you know. It took us nine months of trying to [01:47:35] get that distribution deal. Emailing every week. People make me laugh. They go. They try, try [01:47:40] to do something. They try once and they go, I’ve tried. Like, if I wanna work with a company, I’ll be there every [01:47:45] week until they work with me. Or tell me, leave me alone. That’s how we are [01:47:50] like that. They’re busy. Really, really busy. To get on their radar is hard. Unless. [01:47:55] Unless you’ve got a massive a major profile, like, you know, as we get [01:48:00] bigger, the doors open slightly easier.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: And that’s. That is a privilege [01:48:05] and a pleasure as well. And that’s what makes me enjoy it so much, because it’s so much easier [01:48:10] to get through those doors.

Payman Langroudi: Now let’s get on to the final questions.

Chris O’Connor: Yes. [01:48:15]

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy dinner party.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, I’ve prepared three guests. I mean [01:48:20] prepared, so I won’t do a lot of remunerating. Uh, one of my my, [01:48:25] one of my favourite hobbies is cricket watching. I’m a big cricket fan, so I was like, I must have someone cricket. [01:48:30] And I thought about it and I think I would like Michael Atherton. I really enjoy, I enjoy [01:48:35] podcasts, I enjoy his commentary. He’s a very clever guy. He’s very insightful. I just [01:48:40] and I’d love to chat cricket for a while.

Payman Langroudi: Do you play as well?

Chris O’Connor: I did, and I wasn’t [01:48:45] particularly good, but I am a.

Payman Langroudi: I love watching it.

Chris O’Connor: I like watching it. I love more than watching it. It’s listening [01:48:50] to it and I my favourite day would be sunny day doing a job, [01:48:55] maybe doing some lab work with the cricket in my ear. Um. That’s my. That’s heaven. [01:49:00]

Payman Langroudi: Who else?

Chris O’Connor: Next one, I’m going to pick my favourite author. It’s Brandon [01:49:05] Sanderson. I don’t know if you’re if you’re into really high geek fantasy, that would be geek [01:49:10] fantasy. Yeah I.

Payman Langroudi: Am.

Chris O’Connor: Anything real? Anything real world, uh, [01:49:15] does nothing to me. If I read I Want to escape. And, um, again, Brandon [01:49:20] Sanderson is one of the top fantasy authors in the world. Uh, and I read those books, and I he’s [01:49:25] what’s.

Payman Langroudi: Like, what’s a couple of the book titles? If someone.

Chris O’Connor: Uh, you would be looking at [01:49:30] Mistborn and you would be looking at the Stormlight Archive, they’re big books. They’re like big [01:49:35] books. And, uh, yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: And who’s the third?

Chris O’Connor: The. [01:49:40] Oh. Oh, yeah, I’ve got a good one. There’s one of my things I’m enjoying most at the [01:49:45] moment is there’s a new podcast called The Rest Is Entertainment. Have you heard of it?

Payman Langroudi: And the rest is [01:49:50] politics.

Chris O’Connor: It’s the rest. It’s my flavour of the month. And it’s Richard Osmond and Marina Hyde that run it. [01:49:55] And Marina Hyde I could listen to or I love Richard Osman, but I wish he’d shut up because I just want listen to her. [01:50:00] She’s so, so sharp. She’s got such great takes.

Payman Langroudi: On check it out.

Chris O’Connor: She [01:50:05] is just I mean, the podcast is brilliant, but she is just I think she’s she’s a [01:50:10] columnist, but I’ve never read her. But I’m like she’s like, I don’t know, [01:50:15] bitchy in the best way. I love I love characters like that, you know, really acerbic and knowing. [01:50:20] And I could listen to her all day.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. And the final question is, [01:50:25] it’s like a deathbed question.

Chris O’Connor: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: On your deathbed, surrounded by your [01:50:30] loved ones. Three pieces of advice.

Chris O’Connor: Oh, God, I haven’t got three. I was planning for this one. [01:50:35] Three pieces of advice. Okay. My advice would be to anyone. [01:50:40] Would be to. The most important relationship in your life is the one you have with yourself. [01:50:45] And to really nurture and take care of that. And if [01:50:50] you don’t, you get a lot of symptoms and a lot of things, and it makes you difficult [01:50:55] to love in return and to love.

Payman Langroudi: So love yourself.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah I do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Look after [01:51:00] yourself.

Chris O’Connor: Look after, you know the biggest one. Forgive yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Forgive yourself. Forgive yourself. An easier time.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. [01:51:05] And, like, you know, it’s been a, like we’ve gone into it, but that’s been a real difficult [01:51:10] thing for me. And accepting yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: You know, and that will then allow you [01:51:15] to be to be better, to not be competitive with people like all these things we do [01:51:20] is because we’re insecure. Yeah, yeah. You know, and obviously that’s a journey and we’re never perfect. But again, [01:51:25] you forgive yourself for that. That’s so important. Yeah, yeah. Um, I think another one would be just to be [01:51:30] really, you know, open with people, with your feelings in arguments. I think [01:51:35] me and my wife had a day yesterday where we we’ve had a couple of things going on and we really try and [01:51:40] try and thrash them out and get deep on that and don’t leave it uncovered. [01:51:45] Uncover it all, you know, you know, if someone you love and you want to make up with, then expose [01:51:50] yourself, um, would be that. And, um, you [01:51:55] know, and maybe the other the other one is is be be always try and be kind. [01:52:00] Um, you know, I definitely don’t always haven’t always done that. Um, you know, when [01:52:05] you do something with, you know, that thing when you do something or you tell someone a secret, you know, it’s [01:52:10] you shouldn’t or, you know, there’s mal intent there, and I it makes me so mad at myself [01:52:15] whenever I do that. Um, you know, and I think people who are really kind one, [01:52:20] they are securing them like one of the kindest people like George Dennis. He’s very kind, but he’s also very [01:52:25] secure. Alan is very secure in himself, and he’s very kind because he doesn’t have to not [01:52:30] be kind. Whereas if you’re all twisted in, in, in that kind of way, then [01:52:35] you’re always competing and fighting. And I see that in myself over my life. And I would say. [01:52:40]

Payman Langroudi: This is self-confidence in it too, though. Yeah, but I remember George came here. He, one by one, introduced [01:52:45] himself to every single member of staff here. Hi, I’m George, what’s your name? What do you do here? Very [01:52:50] kind, very kind. But it takes a confident person to do that. You know, like, I was reflecting [01:52:55] on it myself, thinking if I came to your place, I wouldn’t be confident enough to go introduce myself [01:53:00] to each person, you know, even though I might want to, you know, it’s.

Chris O’Connor: But [01:53:05] but I think where does the the. Because people can be like. It’s funny because like, George [01:53:10] is quite outgoing and confident, but confidence comes from being happy with who you are. I really think it’s [01:53:15] all about that. That then allows you to be at peace with it. You know, I really you [01:53:20] know, I’ve got a way to go with that. But, like, I really think that is just so [01:53:25] cool. So core to life, that relationship with yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Really [01:53:30] enjoyed it, man. Thanks for coming all this way.

Chris O’Connor: Cheers, man. I’ve enjoyed it.

[VOICE]: This [01:53:35] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go [01:53:40] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:53:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:53:50] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:53:55] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to [01:54:00] what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of [01:54:05] it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [01:54:10] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much [01:54:15] for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Robert van Geffen: And I use it really as a mirror to me. So what’s triggering you? Well, what? [00:00:05] You can ask the question. Oh, how do I feel now? What is the thing I should not do? What [00:00:10] is the question I should not do? Is this statement I’m going to make helpful in this situation? [00:00:15] So it’s very reflective, right? Your children are very much a mirror [00:00:20] of your bright sides and your dark sides for sure. [00:00:25] And the more you go deep on your darker side and again, don’t see dark as all negative, [00:00:30] right? But the more you understand the triggers, the emotions, the [00:00:35] things that come out of that, etc., the better you are as a as [00:00:40] a human being in general. And then of course, as a father, as a leader, [00:00:45] as whatever you do in society.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:50] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:55] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:01:00] Your hosts. Payman [00:01:05] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Ladies and gentlemen, [00:01:10] it’s my pleasure to introduce Rob Van Geffen to the Dental [00:01:15] Leaders podcast. And Rob is somebody I met. I would [00:01:20] say by chance I was at the DSO Leadership Summit in this. [00:01:25] I’d crossed paths with Rob whilst I was prepping for a talk, and [00:01:30] then one morning and we’d exchanged a few words, and then one morning as, um, as I was [00:01:35] going in to get my breakfast, not quite dressed for the rest of the day, I didn’t have [00:01:40] my shirt or anything on, I just had my t shirt on from the gym maybe. And I saw Rob. Friendly [00:01:45] face looked up and I walked over and said, mind if I join you? And he said, sure. Um. [00:01:50] And for what I felt could have been a 10 to 15 minute exchange [00:01:55] over, um, you know, a coffee and and a short breakfast. [00:02:00] I think we were engaged for the next 90 minutes or so, just [00:02:05] chatting away. And and when we came away from that conversation, I just thought to myself, [00:02:10] the rest of the world needs to hear this. If only. If only I [00:02:15] could have captured the essence in every lesson that you shared with me during that conversation, [00:02:20] and deliver it to the rest of the world. What a powerful message it would be. So, [00:02:25] Rob, I’d like to have breakfast with you again. Um, and I’d like to take [00:02:30] this conversation further, but. But Rob is the chief marketing officer at strawman, [00:02:35] and so that’s his official title. Yeah. Um, but what I learned from [00:02:40] you was much, much deeper than that. Much, much deeper than that. And to [00:02:45] take things from the start. I’m going to ask you a few questions that go a little bit deeper than than [00:02:50] where we went, because I want this conversation to go a little bit further. Rob, I want to take you [00:02:55] back to your childhood. Um, tell me about your upbringing. What that was like. [00:03:00] What sort of kid were you at at school? Where were you brought up? And just [00:03:05] paint a picture of your upbringing for me, Rob.

Robert van Geffen: Mm. Interesting to go down [00:03:10] deep in and and just coincidentally. Right. It’s the [00:03:15] 1st of July. Uh, yeah. And and I think that’s also memorable because I’m exactly [00:03:20] two years, uh, in the company. Uh, strongman. Indeed. Uh, chief [00:03:25] marketing officer. And now I’m here on the Dental leadership also, [00:03:30] uh, a great pleasure also. Uh, thank you for the invite. Uh, yeah. My upbringing, [00:03:35] I think I am, uh, raised by a mother and a father work a collar. So, uh, [00:03:40] you know, we have a, uh, a younger brother. Older sister. Uh, we were raised a [00:03:45] little bit in the outskirts of a city. Uh, in the Netherlands. We didn’t [00:03:50] have a lot of, you know, uh, money in that sense, but we had a lot of fun. But we [00:03:55] also raised a little bit free because my my father was working a lot and my mother was working also [00:04:00] a lot. So sometimes we had time. My, my, my younger brother [00:04:05] and myself had time alone. And we, we also were a lot on the street. So [00:04:10] we were free. Free as children can be. Uh, we were we were also [00:04:15] careless. Uh, we we, uh, climbed trees sometimes to the level of where we [00:04:20] thought, hmm. Can we go higher? Yes we can. Do we fall down the tree? Yes we do. [00:04:25] Do we learn from it? Of course we do. Uh. So carefree. Careless. [00:04:30] Uh, and of course, parents working hard. Uh, caring, uh, for us. Uh, [00:04:35] but I, I, I recall, and I look back at my, uh, [00:04:40] early days as, uh, quite memorable in the sense that there was a lot of freedom [00:04:45] always outside. Uh, we had two friends, buddies in [00:04:50] the street, and we just had a lot of fun.

Prav Solanki: And naturally. [00:04:55]

Robert van Geffen: I know you’re.

Prav Solanki: A father as well, right? So, um, you know, if I, if you just bring [00:05:00] back memories of me and my brother playing out on our BMX bikes, our skateboards, and and [00:05:05] we’d leave home in the morning. Yes. And and then come back in the evening when it was time for [00:05:10] some food. Mhm. And what happened in between. Our parents did not have a clue. Okay. [00:05:15] But we came back with scratches, bruises. But we were still alive and it was [00:05:20] fun times right. And I can’t imagine my kids doing that now. [00:05:25]

Robert van Geffen: Mm.

Prav Solanki: Okay. Letting them out on the street by themselves, whether I’m a super [00:05:30] protective parent or times have changed or whatever, the environment has changed. What [00:05:35] about your kids? What’s your view on that? And, um, do they go out and [00:05:40] experience the same childhood that you had or similar?

Robert van Geffen: No no no no no. Um, [00:05:45] I think what they have is even More [00:05:50] freedom. We create a lot of space for them to explore even more. Um, [00:05:55] and, uh, I didn’t call it that, but I, my parents were [00:06:00] especially my father was, uh, he was working hard, but emotionally, I sometimes [00:06:05] he was he was there. But was he really? Right. That was a bit the thing, right? Yeah. And what I, [00:06:10] uh. And unfortunately, he passed away, uh, when I was 27, [00:06:15] and that was at the the day we got a picture from my son in the [00:06:20] belly of it, there was an echo, um, on the same day. So we showed him the picture. He [00:06:25] said, wow. Uh, he turns he turned on the light in the belly. And [00:06:30] then in the evening, uh, he unfortunately passed away. And I can talk about it quite normal. [00:06:35] But I remember him telling me that in those last days that he wanted to spend more [00:06:40] time with us, he wanted to be more present. And that that, you know, that was a bit his gift for us [00:06:45] parting. And that was also the start of me becoming a dad. [00:06:50] And the biggest gift I got from my wife at that. During those times [00:06:55] was, you know, she said, Rob, maybe you need to do this. And it was called Father Figure. [00:07:00] So blokes, men with children without [00:07:05] children, grandparents, grandfathers. Right. All kinds of other ages [00:07:10] levels in the in the society gathering every week together at the fire talking about [00:07:15] not how the weather was but emotionally about, hey, how [00:07:20] are you dealing with this? For instance, on the topic, you know, just asking, how are you [00:07:25] dealing with letting go of three sons, right? I have three sons, varying of the age of [00:07:30] 19, the oldest 17, the middle one and 13 the youngest.

Robert van Geffen: And I can admit, I [00:07:35] am really bad in letting go. If you compare robot [00:07:40] the role of a leader, letting go towards my leaders leading their teams [00:07:45] and their their members and the team inside. I’m very good in letting go. But [00:07:50] with the most precious thing of my son’s. Yeah. That’s tough. That’s tough. And, [00:07:55] um. I’m I’m I’m practising it every every day, and I’m getting [00:08:00] better at it. Don’t get me wrong. Um, but it’s an interesting, uh, reflection [00:08:05] I also have on myself. Right. So when I look at my team, how they are empowered, how I give [00:08:10] so much space, how I give them the space to try and learn [00:08:15] from the mistakes, uh, fail forward all of that. Then I look at my own sons. I [00:08:20] think I have still some room to grow. And I’m doing it. I’m doing it. Blowing [00:08:25] it. Sort of part of my natural tendency to create, to grow and reflect and, [00:08:30] uh, look at what I can improve. Not with pointing fingers [00:08:35] to anyone. What can I do to develop myself from, [00:08:40] from from the heart. The heart, the the head, the heart and the gut. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Robert. [00:08:45] This group that you just mentioned when you’re when, when when your wife was pregnant [00:08:50] with your with your first child, I’m assuming. Yeah. Um, what was this group you said it [00:08:55] was Father Fire or it was.

Robert van Geffen: It’s literally called father work. So. Father [00:09:00] fire?

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: It was hosted by an I call it an immature [00:09:05] men by, uh, who who hosts those [00:09:10] sessions. And in essence, we have the dialogue about what’s [00:09:15] on your mind. What do you feel? You know, I think, um, we as men have [00:09:20] work to do. Going beyond what you think. So, you know, we are raised by [00:09:25] this. And I think we also can work a little bit on [00:09:30] emotion. And what do you feel? Uh, how do you overcome certain [00:09:35] situations? And it’s, it’s good to do it with female, of course. Um, [00:09:40] but men are simply different. And it was a gift. I worked because [00:09:45] we all need to become mature men, and I think that is [00:09:50] as I also raise men, it’s important to do it well [00:09:55] to lead the example and particularly in this society at the at [00:10:00] the we live in, I think we have work to do on, uh, the female side, of [00:10:05] course, and the female leaders or the female that that’s happened, but also the, the men needs to look [00:10:10] each other in the eye and say, listen, this is going good. And maybe what happened [00:10:15] there wasn’t the right thing to do and call it out.

Prav Solanki: Rob. This was [00:10:20] I’m a Ryan assuming this was 19 years ago. Yes. Okay. So that [00:10:25] that to me, like if you were to tell me today that a group of [00:10:30] men get together and they talk about their emotions and their feelings today, [00:10:35] I get that right. Because men, you can see groups that have started [00:10:40] emerging? Well, I really do think as blokes we should we should be talking more right about the [00:10:45] feelings and all the rest of it. Right? Definitely 19 years [00:10:50] ago, people. That wasn’t the norm. Right now it feels like it’s [00:10:55] more of the norm. There’s various clubs. I mean, even in our organisation, we’ve got something called the mad shit, [00:11:00] right? Where, where, where we could get together as blokes and talk about our feelings and stuff. This was 19 [00:11:05] years ago, right? What was the format? How many people were there, you say, around the fire or whatever? [00:11:10] Was there a room or was it outdoors? How many people? How would the conversation go? How [00:11:15] often were you meeting outdoors? What was going on 19 years ago? For [00:11:20] a bunch of blokes to get together and talk about their feelings, because back then, [00:11:25] I can only anticipate that wasn’t necessarily the man thing or the macho [00:11:30] thing to do. Right. And where was your wife’s headspace at? To tell [00:11:35] you, I think you need to try this out. I’m really curious about that?

Robert van Geffen: Yeah. And again, [00:11:40] my wife is a bit further on on the journey of uh, of that. So I, I think it’s just [00:11:45] to, to um, this 90 years ago. So yes, it’s, it’s a long way back if [00:11:50] I went on it ever since. You know, that was the start of my, uh, uh, [00:11:55] spiritual journey on on that, uh. Yeah. No, it was, I think it was [00:12:00] weekly. We spent an evening on it and [00:12:05] it was guided. Right. So sometimes we had a topic to discuss and sometimes it was sharing. [00:12:10] So we did the talking stick. One bloke was speaking, the [00:12:15] others were listening. Mhm. Uh, and also we, we didn’t, I didn’t call [00:12:20] them blokes. It were my brothers. So you build up a connection with them and after [00:12:25] that you know I did several different uh, in those settings with, with, with other [00:12:30] brothers to, to go even deeper. So just a few years ago I went through [00:12:35] a whole year. It was a leadership course for men as well, and [00:12:40] we spent every second or third weekend on all the all the levels of, [00:12:45] uh, the chakras. So and then go deep, spend the weekend really on [00:12:50] what does it mean to be the warrior. What does it mean to be older? The male, uh, [00:12:55] call it archetypes.

Prav Solanki: I’m going to touch on that later. We’re going to bring we’re going to [00:13:00] start talking a little bit about spirituality, because you’ve just referred to something [00:13:05] that, um, touched an area of my life. More recently, you refer to the chapters [00:13:10] and more recently, when I was in Thailand, um, I went through a [00:13:15] what could have been only described as a healing experience, where [00:13:20] I can only say I was very closed minded about that previously. I’m [00:13:25] very open minded about it more recently. Right. And about aligning the energy, feeling [00:13:30] the energy in the room and allowing somebody to perform this healing on me. Right. But it sounds like you [00:13:35] got involved in that journey quite some time ago. Um, in terms of [00:13:40] the spiritual side of things and the flow of energy. Right?

Robert van Geffen: Yeah. In the end, everything [00:13:45] is energy. So when I just reflected, right, I, I had a full [00:13:50] offsite team event. Um, and we, we, we planned it [00:13:55] in every detail. The content, the location. Um, there wasn’t there was a team [00:14:00] managing it. And it was not to say the organisation which stood out that [00:14:05] day. It was really the energy. Can you imagine if you have like 60 [00:14:10] or 70 people in a room, all tuned on a similar energy? So there was just excitement. [00:14:15] It was excitement all over. And therefore my my [00:14:20] full investment in energies that I go through and I’m open, uh, [00:14:25] I give so much after that, of course, I’m completely tired and wasted, but [00:14:30] that stems out, so I’m in it. People see it. People notice it. And that’s also [00:14:35] what they take out. That was what we repeated today to the Brazilian team. [00:14:40] Food and it. It’s sort of sending the message. You know, a [00:14:45] that’s sort of the psychological safety team. I have your back always. [00:14:50] Whatever you do, even if I don’t know it, I will support you. But also [00:14:55] you show that you care about them and you give energy. And I think that is sparking. [00:15:00] I think I am very good in sparking people to [00:15:05] give that energy. And that happened also during the chat, during the coffee talk, because we [00:15:10] were into that zone and we were onto something. And I think that that sticks. [00:15:15] That’s the stickiness. Right. And then you can talk about more the, the, the [00:15:20] contents, the it and that side of the equation. But it’s, it’s about I think everything [00:15:25] is energy. And everybody has a very strong role to play in that. And [00:15:30] how and then it’s sort of how to how to shape it and how to create it and how [00:15:35] to maintain it and how to. Yeah. And and also do it in a congruent way [00:15:40] that is not just a one time off. It’s it’s consistent. You see me it’s [00:15:45] repetitive.

Prav Solanki: So so interesting. Like sometimes you sit down with people. [00:15:50] Right. And the energy’s off. Right. And it doesn’t, doesn’t necessarily mean you’re immediately repelled, [00:15:55] but the conversation doesn’t flow in the same way that it did when we sat down. Right. So there [00:16:00] was a reason why I sat down for 15 minutes and it ended up being 90. Right. And I [00:16:05] do feel that we were almost like on the same wavelength, right? There was some there was something [00:16:10] firing, there was energy in the room, and it was like the rest of the room had blurred out. [00:16:15] Okay. And me and you were communicating with each other, and we were so engaged in that conversation, [00:16:20] and the energy was very positive. And, you know, sometimes I feel that with certain people and [00:16:25] with other people, the energy just isn’t there. It’s it’s the same with public [00:16:30] speaking as well, right? Sometimes the room. The room can give you back so much [00:16:35] energy that you push that back out. Right. And sometimes something can throw [00:16:40] you off and you don’t perform as well. Yeah, there’s definitely a piece there. Yeah. [00:16:45] Um, what can you say about that and how does that impact in [00:16:50] your day to day. What’s your view on like you’ve just said now that everything is energy, [00:16:55] right. Is that how you view everything? Work like married, like children?

Robert van Geffen: Yes. [00:17:00] And I think you if you if you sort of sometimes [00:17:05] you literally feel it in your, uh, in your body. Right. If you read the room, [00:17:10] so I, I stole the tip you gave me last, uh, last week I needed to present [00:17:15] in a leadership academy course about, uh, vulnerability and, uh, [00:17:20] specifically about psychological safety. Okay. And what you told me during [00:17:25] the coffee is that you Go up early and you go into the room. Yeah. [00:17:30] And I did the same. So thank you for that. I went walking because then I had 30 [00:17:35] minutes of focussed time doing the walk. And it’s also good to get the steps in. Yeah. And I went [00:17:40] into the interview and there was only one person. It was Duran Duran Jones I think from [00:17:45] the UK team.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Robert van Geffen: But he was there standing and he was, he left me, but I was [00:17:50] more reading the room a little bit and looked at the boards, but okay. And [00:17:55] then I went out and then the team came in. And then I needed to sit on [00:18:00] a chair and I need to start talking about psychology. And they were all very anticipating [00:18:05] on the energy was quite gone. They had earnings, so I needed [00:18:10] to balance my energy also a little bit to that, but I did it based [00:18:15] on what I felt in the room.

Prav Solanki: Before they even came in or. Yeah, yeah. [00:18:20]

Robert van Geffen: Was it positive you, you know, you feel it a bit in. Yeah, [00:18:25] I think it’s a bit like you said, right? Sometimes you [00:18:30] sense a bit of what is the emotion in the room. Are they open? Are they closed? Are they excited [00:18:35] or are they done? Um, yeah. And then you need to get a little [00:18:40] bit of, uh, here. They were a little bit like demons. They were silent, but I knew a [00:18:45] couple of the folks in the room. But then you start having a bit of a dialogue. There was somebody [00:18:50] who had a Dutch girlfriend, so I triggered a bit. Hey, you. Should you speak Dutch? A little bit? So [00:18:55] it’s trying to get out of that calmness and get into a [00:19:00] state of where you think, okay, this is a good energy. And then you go into the conversation. [00:19:05]

Prav Solanki: Robyn, an area of leadership that you operate in. Okay. Um, [00:19:10] do you think part and parcel of your, of your role is controlling [00:19:15] the energy in the room and driving that energy in the room? And the reason why I say that [00:19:20] this is taking me to conversations with patience. Okay. If [00:19:25] you can inject the right energy, the right enthusiasm and the right dialogue into a conversation [00:19:30] with the patient, where you where you happen to pick up on the phone. Oh, this person’s got a Dutch girlfriend. [00:19:35] This person’s into exercise and training and so on. So I’m going to share some common ground. We’ve [00:19:40] got a connection. Right? I’m part and parcel with that when we when we talk about patient [00:19:45] treatment acceptance. Okay. Yes. There’s a metal rod that’s going in. And yes I’m going to help [00:19:50] you eat again. I’m going to help you smile again and all of that. That’s a given, right? It’s almost like we [00:19:55] can take that for granted. Okay. But the energy that’s shared between those two people [00:20:00] is really what makes that connection right? And if you can nail that piece and you can [00:20:05] formalise that peace, then your treatment acceptance will go through the roof. Right. [00:20:10] If you can connect with patients in the right way. But my question to you actually, because [00:20:15] that’s what got me thinking about that, is actually as a leader within this German organisation, [00:20:20] do you think part and parcel of your role and responsibility is injecting the right energy into [00:20:25] the conversation, into the room when you’re leading people? Or does the [00:20:30] does the room bring the energy to you? What how does that how does that how does that manifest in [00:20:35] your role?

Robert van Geffen: I think absolutely, but it’s a mutual exchange and [00:20:40] it’s more than only energy. It’s the memorable experience before, [00:20:45] during and after you leave the room. Uh, because I think that if [00:20:50] you have a leadership role, that’s just your obligation. I sense that I feel that that sort [00:20:55] of my obligation is I need to be very sensible [00:21:00] of the experience. People enter the room or during the room [00:21:05] and leave the room, because leadership only starts and ends with what happens when you leave the room. [00:21:10] What is what they talk about? And I thought the team also, which were [00:21:15] in the room because there were a few members from my team that are doing the leadership course. And [00:21:20] I was nervous.

Prav Solanki: Why?

Robert van Geffen: Because [00:21:25] I felt it’s like presenting to a group you don’t know, and presenting to a group [00:21:30] you really value. And when I build teams, it’s like almost my family. [00:21:35] So my family was in the room called those who were my leaders. Mhm. And I was [00:21:40] nervous because they are in that room and I’m just in and out because I just had a slot. [00:21:45] And then I go out. But what, what, what, what resonates then in the conversation that [00:21:50] I’m not part of is what, what is the impression I left. And I [00:21:55] want to do the best job for my leaders and my team, so that everything we do [00:22:00] as a collective is seen as a memorable experience. And that can be [00:22:05] such a session. That can be this session, that can be an ideas event we did in Cologne [00:22:10] that everybody thinks, what? Oh my god what just happened. Mhm. [00:22:15] And that they need to shake it off because it’s sticky and that they talk about [00:22:20] it like it’s a it’s a very nice memory. And yes, maybe they went through [00:22:25] a little bit of this, this cycle that they were not in the moment, that they were shaken [00:22:30] up a bit and that they are in the moment after that, uh, that activity or that trigger [00:22:35] or, you know, sometimes I also like to provoke a bit. Uh, so [00:22:40] maybe that’s the Dutch directness, right? Poke a little bit to see. Is it sticking? Or [00:22:45] maybe sometimes it sticks after a day or sometimes it’s it’s sticking [00:22:50] after the week. But at least I tried to create a wrinkle.

Prav Solanki: But [00:22:55] you said you were nervous, right? You’ve been in a position of leadership for a long time. [00:23:00] Okay. You’ve you’ve done this several times before, right? Let’s see if we talk about this one [00:23:05] session that you were a little bit nervous about because you care. You see them as family, [00:23:10] brothers and sisters. Okay. Um, but you were still nervous [00:23:15] just. Why you’ve done this before. You know it’s going [00:23:20] to go the way you think it’s going to go. What is it that brings those nerves on? Is it because you care? [00:23:25] Is it excitement? Where do the where do the nerves come from?

Robert van Geffen: Because [00:23:30] my my my own threshold is super high for myself. It’s [00:23:35] the same as I mentioned, right? Letting go of my team is different than letting go of my.

Prav Solanki: My boss [00:23:40] so wanted to come back there. I wanted to come back there. Right.

Robert van Geffen: Because it’s [00:23:45] the threshold I have on my own. Yeah, I want to just do the best. I [00:23:50] want to be the best version of myself. Every day. Every every day. In and out. Um, but [00:23:55] I know that I’m not there yet. That’s my own trajectory. I think that’s also how I. [00:24:00] How I lead, how I grow. Um, and it’s healthy. Nervous, right? If I do [00:24:05] it, I know I can do it. So my confirmation is if I am talking, [00:24:10] typically it makes sense. And typically it also resonates with people. Yeah, that’s [00:24:15] based on my experience. But that that that nervousness is also giving me the edge [00:24:20] because I like it. It’s also nice. Yeah. The sharpness. And if you are not [00:24:25] nervous anymore then you could question, do I care?

Prav Solanki: Still 100% [00:24:30] Rob. So like, you know, I’ve done so much public speaking over the years. Right? And people ask me [00:24:35] now, do you get nervous right before you step on stage, before [00:24:40] you get out in front of a crowd? Do you get nervous every single time? Yeah. [00:24:45] Have these beautiful little butterflies floating around in my chest. Yeah. [00:24:50] Yeah. Um, but it’s because I give a shit. It’s because I care about [00:24:55] the outcome. Because I want to resonate with the audience. Mhm. And [00:25:00] there’s always that. What if they don’t. What if they [00:25:05] don’t. Right. There’s always that just in the, in the back of my mind. Right. That but but but it [00:25:10] actually comes from a place of If I care, right?

Robert van Geffen: Yes. And [00:25:15] it’s also let that feeling be. And also [00:25:20] look back at it gratefully.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: Because that feeling gives you a trigger. That’s [00:25:25] why emotion gives you a trigger. It can give you a kick in the butt when needed. It can [00:25:30] give you sharpness when needed again gave you focus. It can give you gratitude. It can give you everything. [00:25:35] And so that’s why if you look at it from from that point of view, if the feeling triggers you to do [00:25:40] the best version of yourself in that moment, and you look back at it as that was, [00:25:45] that was perfect. And it sticks with the, the the recipient’s excellent. And of course, [00:25:50] you will never touch everyone. No, but at least you did it your [00:25:55] way.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: And call it being vulnerable. But I think [00:26:00] that’s why I shared it in that setting with leaders who are part of the leadership group for [00:26:05] the future of the company. Uh, vulnerability is a strength. Talking [00:26:10] about emotion is a strength. Doing it on public is [00:26:15] a strength. Creates vulnerability and anxiety, of course, but that’s also a feeling. So [00:26:20] deal with it.

Prav Solanki: And you started that journey 19 years ago, right? [00:26:25]

Robert van Geffen: I don’t know when I started. For sure, 19 years ago was when I was, [00:26:30] uh, my eyes were opened in. Oh, it seems this is a [00:26:35] normal practice, but funnily enough, and 90 years later, my son. My older son. [00:26:40] Yeah. Oh, my God, how strong he is emotionally. Honestly.

Prav Solanki: Uh-uh, [00:26:45] through through sharing vulnerabilities or or emotionally [00:26:50] strong in the sense that actually he doesn’t care what anyone thinks. [00:26:55] He’s confident, he makes his own decisions, stays in his lane. And I [00:27:00] think.

Robert van Geffen: I think raised by parents who do the work.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: I [00:27:05] think it’s it’s it’s the betting, right. They have such a safe bedding and [00:27:10] that and they have examples, right? The oldest is now the [00:27:15] youngest looks more up to the oldest than that. The old looks up to me and that’s fine, right? That’s also about [00:27:20] letting go. Letting go. I’m. But I’m quite competitive. So I can still run [00:27:25] a 10-K like he, uh. Right. But so the point of them, you need to let it go, [00:27:30] right? Speed wise, uh, physics wise. Um, but [00:27:35] that’s, I think, you know, um, parenting by. So it’s sort of you [00:27:40] lead by example by walking the talk. What [00:27:45] you do is what so you show and you do it instead [00:27:50] of, you know, you can you can.

Prav Solanki: Talk about.

Robert van Geffen: It. You need to show it.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, yeah. [00:27:55] It’s not good enough to just talk the talk. Right. You walk in the wall.

Robert van Geffen: Walk and [00:28:00] you need to do it consistently. And yeah the word is the better word is congruent. [00:28:05] I got as feedback which was quite congruent in what you say, what you do, and do [00:28:10] what you say.

Prav Solanki: So what’s the letting go? Peace with the kids? With the boys? What is it that you [00:28:15] struggle with and what does letting go actually mean? Surely it’s not letting go. It’s [00:28:20] not just letting go. That. Hey, my kid can run faster than me now, right? But, but but it’s it’s [00:28:25] it’s, you know, it’s it’s making sure that they can what survive on their own. You can let [00:28:30] go that they don’t need daddy anymore. And what is what’s your [00:28:35] what do you mean by letting go?

Robert van Geffen: I think it’s all about trusting them that [00:28:40] they will go their own way, and that they will do it in the best way they can. [00:28:45] Yeah, it it it’s it’s, uh, it’s that that [00:28:50] to me, that’s when when you talk, when you ask, what do you mean with letting go? I [00:28:55] think it’s that. Okay. And it’s funny. I don’t have it with all three. It’s with all three. A little bit [00:29:00] different.

Prav Solanki: Interesting.

Robert van Geffen: And I use it really as a [00:29:05] mirror to me. So what’s triggering you? Well, what? You can ask the question. [00:29:10] So how do I feel now? What is the thing I should not do? What is the question I should not do? [00:29:15] Is this statement that I’m going to make helpful in this situation? So it’s [00:29:20] very reflective, right? Your children are very much a mirror of your bright sides [00:29:25] and your dark sides.

Prav Solanki: For.

Robert van Geffen: Sure. And the more you go [00:29:30] deep on your darker side and again, don’t see dark as all negative, right? But the [00:29:35] more you understand the triggers, the emotions, the things that come out of [00:29:40] that, etc., the better you are as a as a human being in general. And [00:29:45] then of course, as a father, as a leader, as whatever you do in society. [00:29:50]

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: It’s like karma, right? Like [00:29:55] you had we had the coffee from Yannick at the time we were, uh.

Prav Solanki: It [00:30:00] was an interesting interlude. And, uh, it was very early on in our conversation. [00:30:05] Right. And, um, I don’t know whether you’d been over to the coffee machine and pressed the button and got yourself [00:30:10] a coffee out before you’d sat down and got your breakfast, but, um, you know, [00:30:15] Yanick came along and, um, just delivered me a flat white coffee and said, um, [00:30:20] words to the effect of especially for you, sir, or something like that. And it’s because [00:30:25] previously I’d asked him, could he get me a coffee from the espresso machine? And he [00:30:30] said, no, it was off, but then two minutes later returned and hadn’t delivered that for [00:30:35] me, and then remembered my order. And for me, that was game changing. Right? But just tell [00:30:40] me, what was your perception that I’ve sat down with Prav? This [00:30:45] waiter has just come and delivered him a, you know, a custom order. [00:30:50] Should we say what was going through your mind? And I’ll tell you what was going through my mind [00:30:55] at that point, because it’ll be really interesting to hear what your thoughts are.

Robert van Geffen: On [00:31:00] my mind. So I, I think I had one coffee only or. [00:31:05] Um. No, no, I, I think I was, I was looking at the coffee machine, which was the [00:31:10] automated, uh, the not so good coffee, uh, version, and I didn’t even [00:31:15] notice that there was a good coffee machine on the counter.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: Uh, so I when I [00:31:20] was sort of having my breakfast and you joined and I thought, oh, hey, I missed [00:31:25] completely the the good coffee machine because I could have also asked. Right.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: It’s it’s not [00:31:30] about, uh, you know, um, you can ask and then either you get a no or. Yes [00:31:35] either way, at least. So I didn’t even notice it. So for me it was like mm. Then [00:31:40] what I really liked is sort of the way you, the way the unique sort of came to you, uh, [00:31:45] because you were already. So you made a connection with him and he did it with a smile. So it was [00:31:50] almost like a pleasure for him to create a memorable experience for you, [00:31:55] for sure. Yeah. And of course, that triggered me to ask the same question. Can I have such a nice coffee as broth [00:32:00] as well? Yeah. Um, so it was a couple of. So, yeah, [00:32:05] a couple of things, which sort of I took from a bit of the blindness towards what’s [00:32:10] happening in the surrounding. If you are just going for the coffee and then the coffee machine, which is closest [00:32:15] you go for, but maybe if you have a little bit more time and you look a bit at the surrounding, maybe [00:32:20] I would have noticed the better coffee machine. Yeah. And and the way you connected with your nick. Um, [00:32:25] before and and that he remembered that, uh, and that made [00:32:30] him create that, uh, coffee for you. Uh, and, yeah, he he brought it [00:32:35] with a smile. So I think that was that was just a nice. Uh. Yeah, it [00:32:40] was it was a nice experience.

Prav Solanki: And that’s all about energy, right?

Robert van Geffen: Yeah. Because the guy was also [00:32:45] proud. And you felt it, right?

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Absolutely. Absolutely. And and from my [00:32:50] perspective, when I was looking at that the first time I asked him for the coffee, he said, no, the machine hasn’t been switched [00:32:55] on yet, so I’m afraid I can’t get you one from that machine. And two minutes later [00:33:00] he comes with a smile on his face and brings me one the first time around. I think it was the morning before. I [00:33:05] thought, what a guy. Yeah, he’s gone out of his way for me. And then the next day I didn’t even need to [00:33:10] ask him. He brought it while you were there. Right.

Prav Solanki: Exactly.

Prav Solanki: In that moment when [00:33:15] I was in company, I felt even more special than I would have done if [00:33:20] I was on my own. Even more special.

Prav Solanki: Of course. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Um. [00:33:25] And it was great that when you asked, he reciprocated as well. [00:33:30] And, I mean, it just reminded me of, you know, people who deliver amazing [00:33:35] customer service. They lead with their heart and not their title, all [00:33:40] their role. Okay? They do they do what’s right in here. And [00:33:45] even as leaders. Right. We do. You know, you know, I believe the best leaders lead [00:33:50] with the heart first and their title second for sure.

Robert van Geffen: No, no, I think [00:33:55] if you want to have an inner team resonate for the long run. I [00:34:00] think you can’t ignore. But you can’t not lead with without. You need to lead with [00:34:05] the heart because I think that is also which will click and stick with your [00:34:10] people. Don’t don’t get me wrong. I started this journey 90, 19 [00:34:15] years ago. Uh, in the meanwhile, I think we are far, far further along. Uh, [00:34:20] and also the the different generations are far further along. Right? We have a certain age. Right. And [00:34:25] we we are raised in a different way. But I think if you have a I have a very diverse [00:34:30] team. I have all genders, all age levels, all I have a very diverse team. [00:34:35] So if you don’t stick to something which is very close to your [00:34:40] heart and you just have an have an open approach with an open heart, that’s [00:34:45] what clicks. Yeah. Because you can think about it at length, [00:34:50] but people will feel people will feel the genuine in that if I come [00:34:55] into a room and I’m closed and I only have my my ratio with me, people [00:35:00] will sense that and that will never stick. Yeah. Great presentation, but did [00:35:05] it click with me? Not really. And I think that’s because of we [00:35:10] have we live in an era of AI and uh, over, over uh, [00:35:15] we have so much information to, uh, to, to process. I think you need [00:35:20] to be really mindful of how you deliver certain messages and how you differentiate [00:35:25] yourself. And again, that comes back to this, this experience, the genuine [00:35:30] gesture.

Robert van Geffen: And also, uh, the way Yanick and this coffee example gave [00:35:35] his energy to, to us. Yeah. And if you then take it back to [00:35:40] where we are. Part of dentistry becoming digital. Patients [00:35:45] are getting more exposed. We also need to make sure that we lead that [00:35:50] transformation with the heart and soul in everything we do because in the end [00:35:55] we create smiles. But getting to a smile sometimes is quite scary, right? [00:36:00] And then talking about the topic of letting go, they need to let go [00:36:05] and fully trust the dentist or us delivering [00:36:10] the product like the implant in the mouth that is sort of stable. That [00:36:15] is sort of for the long term in because yeah, it is. Yeah, it’s quite in your [00:36:20] face. Right. The, the smile it’s quite close to and it has a lot of impact on [00:36:25] your security, on the way you smile and the way you, the way [00:36:30] you the, the patient, him or herself sort of. Uh, yeah. [00:36:35] Will be present. And the industry I come from a different industry. I was more in the medical [00:36:40] technology industry. I feel that dentistry is even more close [00:36:45] to where the patient wants to be seen. Yeah. So it’s really [00:36:50] the facial expression. So it’s really close to creating this sense of security for [00:36:55] them that their smile is everlasting. And that’s the energy what we want to create I think in [00:37:00] the dentistry industry. But of course, you and I also as contributors [00:37:05] to that.

Prav Solanki: So interesting. Rob, every time I’m going to ask you another question [00:37:10] and I’ve got it in my mind what I’m going to ask you about next. Mm. You say something [00:37:15] that reminds me that I’m going to ask you that next. Without me having to prompt it or write it down and take some notes. [00:37:20] It’s a little bit wild, but I was going to ask you about letting go of your sons. Mhm. [00:37:25] And you brought it up again. So it allowed me to naturally segue into that. [00:37:30] And as you were talking I thought, right, nobody really knows what your career has [00:37:35] been. We’ve talked about your childhood, all the rest of it. I know you’ve held a leadership position [00:37:40] at Philips. We spoke at length about that, the difference in cultures and all the rest of it. But let me just [00:37:45] take us back to your career before we move on to the rest of the conversation. And [00:37:50] then you brought it back to, oh, I’ve had different roles, right? Not just in dentistry. So [00:37:55] let’s explore that. Rob. Um, just tell me. Give me a whistle stop tour of [00:38:00] your career since, you know school to where you are today. Um, [00:38:05] what have you what have you done over your career? Um.

Robert van Geffen: So I started [00:38:10] in an, uh, company, which was a country organisation, [00:38:15] um, where I was sort of, uh, responsible for marketing [00:38:20] communication events in the broader sense. It was really in a sales [00:38:25] organisation. Um, I also did sales there, launching a product, selling [00:38:30] it. Then thereafter. Um, Rob.

Prav Solanki: Before you, before you move on, I when you [00:38:35] say you did sales and you did marketing, right? Just talk to me like, what was the day to day? [00:38:40] Were you cutting your teeth in in sales and marketing, having 1 to 1 conversations [00:38:45] with customers. We leading a team at that point. Like in that, in that initial role. [00:38:50] What was your day to day like? Just to paint a picture of where you stand.

Robert van Geffen: It [00:38:55] was it was hands on. It was sort of creating events. Hands on. It [00:39:00] was doing it. It was really, really sort of straight from school. Jumping into [00:39:05] the role and just. Yeah. Doing the activity. Uh, that’s [00:39:10] talking to customers, opening the door, having the sales pitch, creating an event. If [00:39:15] competition was doing something, anticipating doing it better the same day or the day after. [00:39:20] Uh, it was hosting big events. It was at that time [00:39:25] also setting up a first call centre. There was only one laptop with internet, so it’s a bit. [00:39:30] It’s it’s different ages. Uh, we did email marketing. We created [00:39:35] segments. So it was I think it was a lot of pioneering in this in-between [00:39:40] state of becoming, uh, where digital is just starting.

Prav Solanki: And [00:39:45] were you getting involved in every facet like the the copy for the emails, [00:39:50] the the conversations, the sales pitch, the how to target particular customers, [00:39:55] what sort of campaigns you’re running, you’re in the trenches and all of that, right?

Robert van Geffen: I was [00:40:00] knee deep in the trenches, and honestly, I think it was also the best experience because I was so exposed [00:40:05] to everything. Yeah. And if you do that in that way, that’s also the way I can [00:40:10] now lead the team, because I did it, I did social media, I did social marketing, I did [00:40:15] email marketing, I did batch and blast without an opt in list, [00:40:20] I did telemarketing, I was even trained to do inbound outbound [00:40:25] calling. I did event management. Uh, of course it was not as big [00:40:30] as we have now in in the current strongman world, but for sure, I know that there’s [00:40:35] a lot of detail to manage, and I think, you know, that is also what I did in the other [00:40:40] company. Uh, you know, I was then asked for to [00:40:45] head up a digital marketing team in a Japanese company, and then also we [00:40:50] did replacement of backend systems. We did. We did integration. So it was also more techie. [00:40:55] It so so so starting with, you know, more commercial function [00:41:00] in my first role, touching everything around marketing, sales, uh services, [00:41:05] even uh, then into a more digital role where there was more connection and exposure [00:41:10] to it.

Robert van Geffen: And then I went to Philips, uh, where I did it all, but [00:41:15] also across, you know, the consumer space, the B2B space. And [00:41:20] so I did consumer lifestyle, healthcare, uh, but also a bit of lighting. [00:41:25] I separated, I was part of separation teams, I was part of acquisition [00:41:30] teams. And my last assignment was at Philips growing their direct channel [00:41:35] when I also was asked by the same company to do a reorganisation. So [00:41:40] I built a team. I was also asked to change the limit because at that time the company [00:41:45] was going through some changes. And then that was the second time strawman came [00:41:50] where I sort of was more open because honestly, due to that [00:41:55] reorganisation and as you know, how I built teams, my soul was a bit hurt to [00:42:00] call it blunt. And then I was more open to have the conversation. And, you know, [00:42:05] I thought, well, let’s try what I did before in a different [00:42:10] industry, different company, different set of people, because what really resonated [00:42:15] was the way they talked about the culture at strong.

Prav Solanki: Before we before we move on to Straw [00:42:20] and Rope. And you were Philips for 16 years, right? And [00:42:25] your last role was vice president, global head of digital marketing and [00:42:30] e-commerce health systems. You’re in charge of a large number of people, a [00:42:35] multi-million pound budget. And, you know, several years before that, [00:42:40] you were deep in the trenches writing copy for emails and doing [00:42:45] outbound and inbound sales. Right. What I want to wrap my head around [00:42:50] is what was your journey from where you were to work your [00:42:55] way up to that? Such a senior position in Philips, in charge of a huge [00:43:00] department organisation in healthcare. How did you work your way [00:43:05] up? What was the end in your mind? Just tell me this. Did you know that was going to happen? Was that always part [00:43:10] of the plan?

Robert van Geffen: So I can’t ignore that. I’m not ambitious and I can’t [00:43:15] ignore that I don’t have a dream. And some people say you’re lucky, but I think you know what [00:43:20] I, what I was and also how I coach many, many mentees. Uh, [00:43:25] so I mentor a few folks also now. And what I always did and still [00:43:30] do is sort of I take on the responsibility of my manager. And [00:43:35] then I showed that I could carry the load and I [00:43:40] delivered. And then I grew, you know, and I started with zero people. I added an [00:43:45] intern, a trainee. They became part of the team and the team built. So by doing [00:43:50] that, it’s a very humble and pragmatic way of growing from the trenches [00:43:55] to the leaders. So from the dance to the balcony, that’s also the perspective I have. [00:44:00] If I am on the balcony, I exactly know how people are dancing. So [00:44:05] I did the work and every you know, in Philip’s it was sort [00:44:10] of every few years there wasn’t a change in the plan, a change in the team, a change [00:44:15] in the role. And I, I think I, I, I’m, I’m, I’m hungry and foolish [00:44:20] at the same time and I feel forward. I learned from the mistakes very quickly and [00:44:25] I adjust. And what I think I understand quite quickly, quite [00:44:30] smartly, is sort of I play a bit of the mechanics. I call it the I know how [00:44:35] to play the matrix, so I know about essential timings, about when [00:44:40] are people talking about talents? When are people talking about [00:44:45] people? And then it’s not about being smart [00:44:50] or smarter than the others. It’s just more and more. I [00:44:55] take a certain method in my approach. I understand how the mechanics work really [00:45:00] from A to Z. I know how the company operates on [00:45:05] the financial side, from the people side, from the tooling platform, whatever side. [00:45:10] Right. And then I try to I try to steer it.

Prav Solanki: Engineer the situation. [00:45:15] Right.

Robert van Geffen: It’s engineering the situation. Yeah, yeah. [00:45:20] But also with a very, very human [00:45:25] approach. Of course it was never done with elbows. It [00:45:30] was always done with understanding also where the people came from and how [00:45:35] they are wired. Also that so it’s not only. It’s also understanding the people more deeply [00:45:40] because if I am able to call it steer [00:45:45] the belly fire, which is one of the shuttles, right. Oh my God, if all [00:45:50] those bellies are shining, then I create a halo effect and we create so much [00:45:55] impact for the company. And can you imagine in dentistry if, if, if and that happened on the ideas. [00:46:00] Honestly there was a halo effect of energy around our boot. It was like amazing. [00:46:05]

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: So it’s understanding the mechanics and use them [00:46:10] in your advantage so it will never be luck. It’s more how you guide your. Of [00:46:15] course there’s always a bit of luck, right? But that’s in any, in any in any in [00:46:20] any life. But at least I try to I try to understand [00:46:25] I try to understand how does this now work and how can I make it work [00:46:30] better and how can I make it work for my for the company I [00:46:35] work with, for, uh, for the people I am leading? And how can I how [00:46:40] can I disrupt without disruption? I think that was also the comment [00:46:45] that you are able to disrupt and change without this creating disruption. [00:46:50]

Prav Solanki: And one thing you just you touched upon there was that [00:46:55] you, um, as you progressed from one level to the next to the next, [00:47:00] what you were trying to do or what you were successfully doing was taking the workload [00:47:05] from your senior. Right. As in, as in taking whether it’s the stress, [00:47:10] the pressure, the load. Right. And that just takes me to, you know, when I hire a new team member, one [00:47:15] of the things they say is what are the progression opportunities at this company, right. How can I progress? [00:47:20] How can I grow? Uh, a candidate who’s thinking about his or her future [00:47:25] will ask that question, right? What are the progression? What’s the progression of opportunities within [00:47:30] this business. And because, you know, I’ve built fairly [00:47:35] small sized businesses. All I would say to them is this your [00:47:40] job is to make my life easier. If you make my life easier and take the load [00:47:45] away from me, you become insanely valuable to me, insanely valuable [00:47:50] to me. Right? And that that just made me think about that. Anyone who has progressed in my business, [00:47:55] they’ve made my life easier. So then I can focus on something [00:48:00] else, right? I can focus in my zone of genius. They can focus in their zone of genius, wherever that is. [00:48:05] And we can all grow together. Right. And and from your perspective, as you’ve [00:48:10] grown up, the ladder, so to speak, has your strategy been to [00:48:15] take on more than you were contracted to take on? Shall we say. [00:48:20]

Robert van Geffen: Yes.

Prav Solanki: Always, [00:48:25] always.

Robert van Geffen: But you also say there you need to be, you know, it’s also [00:48:30] to whom you report. In which context do you operate? Uh, what is the team? Uh, [00:48:35] where is their journey? But I always look at stretch. How [00:48:40] can I stretch me in favour of the team? How can I? So how [00:48:45] do you do your job? Well, to create space to stretch. And [00:48:50] I think you did it a bit more Dutch directly to say to to [00:48:55] to the higher the, the person you hire. So how can you help. So sometimes I just [00:49:00] ask, so how can you help me? How can I help you?

Prav Solanki: How can you help me?

Robert van Geffen: And how can you help me? [00:49:05] Or how can you help appear? Because in the end, it’s the success of the [00:49:10] team is never, never an individual, uh, contribution. [00:49:15] It’s always the chain of events. The chain is as strong as the the [00:49:20] broken piece, right?

Prav Solanki: Weakest link.

Robert van Geffen: Weakest link. Yeah. And that is what I always. And I never [00:49:25] talk about me. I always do it in favour. This is the team. We are one. Everybody [00:49:30] has the role, but we all want him. Um. And I think [00:49:35] we also should not be afraid of hiring, uh, smarter people than you or [00:49:40] them. Sure I have, I have oh, I have so many smart people on my team. Unbelievable. [00:49:45] However, their blindspot is my [00:49:50] is sometimes that they are very much in the trenches because they are super good. They [00:49:55] get this. I am on the balcony because I did it. What they did? [00:50:00] Maybe not to that level of extent, but I know exactly what they are after. And [00:50:05] therefore it’s also important as a leader that you set a vision. Where do you want to go? And [00:50:10] you give a lot of space and freedom for them to flow in that direction [00:50:15] without creating too much of guardrails? And then, yes, sometimes [00:50:20] you will have people to raise their hand. Hey, can I get a stretch? And some people are very [00:50:25] comfortable in what they do, but that doesn’t mean that they are doing less than the others, [00:50:30] that they are bad performers. They are just comfortable in what they do, and they are super important [00:50:35] in the whole of what the team does. So I think that we also need to be careful, [00:50:40] as I call everybody in my team a talent and everybody in my team is a leader [00:50:45] in their own regards, and everybody has an obligation to move the needle. That [00:50:50] can be by stretching, that can be polishing the cylinder. It’s [00:50:55] just a matter of where they are themselves also in their trajectory of growth. [00:51:00] Right. Not everybody is looking for a stretch, but for sure they need to [00:51:05] work their cylinder to make it as shiny as possible.

Prav Solanki: When you say, um, [00:51:10] if somebody reaches out to you and says, hey, can I get a stretch? Is [00:51:15] that someone reaching out for help saying, hey, Rob. Um. I’m stuck. I [00:51:20] need help with this problem. Is that somebody’s saying, actually, I feel like I’ve reached my plateau [00:51:25] of where I can take things and I need your help to push me further. [00:51:30] Or is that somebody who’s underperforming and you’ve identified. Hold on a minute. If this person [00:51:35] doesn’t stretch. Something needs to happen.

Robert van Geffen: I think it can be all [00:51:40] those flavours.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Robert van Geffen: And and you know, there is a benefit [00:51:45] of having a good note for people. And there’s also a drawback. And [00:51:50] my drawback, what I learned to call it manage a little bit better is [00:51:55] I start with understanding, having the dialogue, understanding where is this person coming from? [00:52:00] And indeed asking the question how can I help? After a certain [00:52:05] point in time? You also need to not be afraid of. Yeah, I always call [00:52:10] it we have we have hotseat in my team because everybody wants to join the team and everybody wants [00:52:15] to be part of the team. We are making some great impacts and what it means it’s [00:52:20] not for life, you know? It’s sort of in the moment. You need [00:52:25] to just deliver on what you are asked for. And here and there [00:52:30] also. Yeah. Stretch yourself a little bit. Right. And it’s not to make people scared [00:52:35] or something, but for sure they need to understand that the seat they have is valuable [00:52:40] for me, for the company, for themselves. Yeah. And in many cases, [00:52:45] it works like talking in that direction. In other cases, you need to talk [00:52:50] a little bit more directive and give some guardrails. Indeed. To see [00:52:55] can they can they grow. And because if you look at the industry and [00:53:00] the things we are trying to accomplish as a contributor in this dentistry ecosystem, [00:53:05] it’s huge, right? Yeah. We are all under pressure to deliver the best outcome for [00:53:10] our patients clinically. Long term longevity. But that means [00:53:15] everybody needs to be fully in.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: And all the individual contributors need [00:53:20] to be fully in. Doesn’t mean that they need to be stretched or stretched themselves to the extent. Some [00:53:25] of us, including myself, do, but that’s a choice that I take on myself, right? [00:53:30] But I lead by example. So people see okay. And this [00:53:35] is the energy again. That’s also back to energy. And this, this this leader we have [00:53:40] is full in and they and anything is possible. And that’s leading [00:53:45] with the heart as well right in that perspective.

Prav Solanki: You’ve just done it again Rob I was [00:53:50] just about to ask you about your heart. Yeah. And then you and and then you said leading with the heart. [00:53:55] You’ve prompted me, right? I’m sorry. No, it’s it’s there’s no need to apologise. It’s it’s [00:54:00] the energy is flowing in the right direction, and that’s the way I see it. But, but but, Rob, what [00:54:05] I was going to ask you is when, as a leader, when you lead with your heart, you become emotionally [00:54:10] connected with your team. There’s no two ways about it. Right. You as a human being, [00:54:15] You can’t help but if you’re leading with your heart, your emotion [00:54:20] goes into the team and into those people as human beings, right? If you can’t [00:54:25] escape that, okay. But if you find yourself in a situation [00:54:30] where a particular team member isn’t performing, or [00:54:35] perhaps even worse, you need to let them go. Having [00:54:40] helped this person grow to where they’ve got to, and now you feel like it’s [00:54:45] time for them to part or leave or whatever. Whichever organisation, whether it was in [00:54:50] in Phillips or Stroud. And how do you handle that when you’re [00:54:55] all in, as you would say, fully in with your heart? [00:55:00]

Robert van Geffen: No, no, I in Philip’s my last assignment was that [00:55:05] over Christmas, I needed to make a, make a list. Right. Because McKinsey came in and there’s [00:55:10] a book about that.

Prav Solanki: And when McKinsey comes in, right.

Robert van Geffen: When McKinsey comes [00:55:15] in, you can read the book and I will not disclose the details. I’m I’m very grateful. What Philip [00:55:20] brought me, I was I went through my cycle. I’m very [00:55:25] grateful of Philip’s. It’s a it’s a great company. They are all to something. But during that process [00:55:30] yes that was tough. And and and the way I got through [00:55:35] is, you know, this is the assignment. I do it. And it also brought me [00:55:40] a lot a lot of insights for me. Um, but just to reflect on emotionally [00:55:45] the people who were impacted because we had people who could apply on new [00:55:50] roles. And there were also people impacted. Right. And yes, they they were the ones which were friends of mine and [00:55:55] still are. Honestly, I have still connections with all of them. Rob.

Prav Solanki: But before you carry on, what [00:56:00] was the assignment or are you not obliged to say.

Robert van Geffen: I think I need to [00:56:05] release multiple people.

Prav Solanki: People.

Robert van Geffen: So [00:56:10] a significant amount of people.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Robert van Geffen: Let go of them because [00:56:15] the organisation was going from a horizontal approach to more vertical approach. Okay, [00:56:20] fine. I was heading up the horizontal team and I was part of the design [00:56:25] of the new future organisation. Uh, I landed the role there. Um, [00:56:30] but I will get there. But during that process, and I didn’t accept [00:56:35] an offer, I could also have put me on the list of, uh, impacted. And then I would get a financial [00:56:40] offer because 16 years is worth of value, and I deliberately didn’t do it. And because I [00:56:45] wanted to stay there with the team and make sure that my team in all the [00:56:50] right, uh, ways were getting the opportunity, were thought about, were talked [00:56:55] about, were having that opportunity. And if I would have taken the package, [00:57:00] then I would not have had the influence for my people. Okay. So that’s one I deliberately [00:57:05] chose for that. And then second, during the right, people were so happy that I was the messenger. [00:57:10] It was not scripted. I knew everybody in that situation. Children [00:57:15] without children. Where they lived in Amsterdam or somewhere in in abroad or in [00:57:20] the Netherlands. I knew them. And you know, the feedback I got is that although [00:57:25] it’s not the best message I could get. I’m happy that you are [00:57:30] the one. And I think that that was for me. Yeah, a relief [00:57:35] because yes, it’s super emotional if you say, listen, um, guy 50 plus, your job [00:57:40] ceases to exist and the person never worked on his network because he was just fully [00:57:45] in the job.

Robert van Geffen: Painful. Oh my God. Yeah. And I had many [00:57:50] of those conversations. But in the end, I think the only way [00:57:55] I was able to cope with that was just brutally honest from the heart, vulnerable [00:58:00] as I could be in that situation. Talking to somebody sort [00:58:05] of at the other side of the table, in plain Yeah, Dutch. It was, but [00:58:10] in plain English. Mhm. Without sugar coating. Without. Without air. Mumbo [00:58:15] jumbo. Because you you can spin it. No. Just heart to heart. This [00:58:20] is the situation. This is the reality. This is what we are able as a company [00:58:25] to support with and mind the gap. I’m also here to help you. Whatever I can do. [00:58:30] Use my network if you need a reference. And I’m still doing that, to be honest. But people [00:58:35] still reach out to me. Yeah. I can’t do it differently. And that’s how I did it. Was [00:58:40] it painful for me? Yes. Did I part in an emotional state? Yes. [00:58:45] Did they go through the cycle of grief? Yes. 16 years is not. It’s a long time [00:58:50] of a career in life. Yeah. And I. It’s almost like saying goodbye to [00:58:55] an a relative who passed away. I really went through that cycle of [00:59:00] emotional grief, frustration, anger, everything. But in the end, I’m just grateful [00:59:05] of the opportunity.

Prav Solanki: Would you say that was a low point in [00:59:10] your career, or were there the moments during your career that were. There [00:59:15] were more darker times and low moments during or during your career? [00:59:20] If you had to pick a darker times.

Robert van Geffen: I think this was [00:59:25] sort of emotionally the most. I would say the most memorable experience for me. And [00:59:30] I make it memorable because like I said, I don’t want to, uh, [00:59:35] I don’t want to have any, uh, grudge, uh, negative. Like I said, 60 years is a long [00:59:40] time. I went through my, uh, Valley of the Spurs with all the emotions again. Uh, [00:59:45] but coming out, it was also a very strong learning trajectory. [00:59:50] And sometimes I, I deliberately in my team, in my new team now sometimes say, hey [00:59:55] guys and ladies, we are making impact. We are a growth engine. We [01:00:00] are onto something. But I’ve seen different movies. And when I talk about the different movies [01:00:05] that those are those change movies. Yeah, well, I know exactly the other side, [01:00:10] but I also know how to stay on the on the bright side. And that’s to [01:00:15] your point where I started my career, where I am now, I’m just [01:00:20] super grateful and look back at all the opportunities to learn by [01:00:25] rolling off my rolling up my sleeves and being exposed to the good, [01:00:30] the bad and ugly. And I think that is a trait for a leader, because if you are willing [01:00:35] to go all in knee deep, face [01:00:40] the mud with your face forward, then you are also seeing [01:00:45] all the other sides in a in a different perspective.

Prav Solanki: So you mentioned Sherman [01:00:50] came knocking for the second time. Um, so just talk me through [01:00:55] that journey so that they must have. Not the first time, right?

Robert van Geffen: Uh, not [01:01:00] the first time, but I just got the, uh, the new assignment, right?

Prav Solanki: Okay. [01:01:05]

Robert van Geffen: After a long process, because Philip says so. There was there were two [01:01:10] things which I was able to overcome. They looked for a female leader and the person needed to [01:01:15] come from outside. Okay. And there I am, both guy from inside. [01:01:20] But I got the role and I had a very strong, a very nice interview [01:01:25] also with the current CEO. And he’s doing also a great job in turning around [01:01:30] the ship. So at that time strongman came, I thought, oh my God, [01:01:35] you know, interesting company, interesting role for sure, but oh my God, the [01:01:40] travel because it’s an Basel based company and my [01:01:45] family is in Amsterdam, close by Amsterdam in the south of the Netherlands. And [01:01:50] I thought, oh no, no, no, it looks very compelling. But then [01:01:55] I thought, no, no, not the right time. But when they came the second time, I was [01:02:00] sort of in this valley of the Spurs. A bit of an emotional state, so I was more open to [01:02:05] look at it a bit more closely. And I just started the conversations [01:02:10] and honestly, the way they looked at people that talked about [01:02:15] the opportunity, you know, it’s a C level reporting into the CEO [01:02:20] of a very strong growing company in an industry which is a [01:02:25] little bit behind me, but for sure catching up quite quickly, I thought, I [01:02:30] can learn a lot.

Robert van Geffen: Scope wise is broader. The people I talk [01:02:35] to are super energetic. Also there I read energy. Oh my god, I was in Basel. I thought [01:02:40] wow, if this is the level, you know it. The energy’s [01:02:45] just like, I don’t know, I got, I got it, stick to me. And [01:02:50] then at the end closing it properly [01:02:55] at Phillips in a in a very strong way also with all the work [01:03:00] Council conversations, everything. Um, I went to Sherman and [01:03:05] ever since, like, two years feels like four. Uh, in the beginning, I. I tried [01:03:10] to stay a little bit. I wouldn’t say disconnected with the team, but just protecting my heart [01:03:15] a little bit. But after a few months, I couldn’t, because you, [01:03:20] you you get just sucked into a very strong team with a high, [01:03:25] with a high EQ and also IQ. But you, you [01:03:30] you can’t do it differently. So you need to go full, full and open harder then also [01:03:35] because I was asked to look at the organisation right [01:03:40] with the people. And the one who hired me is now, uh, almost going, [01:03:45] he’s getting a different assignment. But he also said in the interview, he said, [01:03:50] Robert, I look at you, but you need to take care of my family.

Prav Solanki: You [01:03:55] hired you.

Robert van Geffen: It was a it was a collective. But this case, I can call [01:04:00] out his name. It’s Rainer Schlegel hiring committee. Yeah, and he said, Robert, you [01:04:05] will take over this. And I look at you and you need to you need to really [01:04:10] take care of my family. So it’s really like you get the key of his house and you need to take care of [01:04:15] it. That’s how I feel it. That’s how I felt it. And and I think energy [01:04:20] wise and approach wise and you know, he’s he’s he’s and I just [01:04:25] build on I build on the legacy he built I make it I make it a bit more broad. Right. [01:04:30] He also acknowledged that right. It’s at the right time. Different leader comes in, but [01:04:35] he’s still there and he gives me feedback. He gives me tips. He’s, uh, and I, [01:04:40] I am open for feedback. So for feedback is for me from a, from the heart. [01:04:45] And even if it’s brutally honest, if it’s from the heart, with the with the trust [01:04:50] setting in a psychological safe environment, feedback is a gift.

Prav Solanki: I had some feedback [01:04:55] from Reiner on on one of my sessions, right? Um, mana. Very few words. Um, [01:05:00] but just direct and very pleasant. Right.

Robert van Geffen: Yeah. [01:05:05]

Prav Solanki: Um, yeah. So that’s why I smiled when he mentioned his name. Um, [01:05:10] yeah. I mean.

Robert van Geffen: Yeah, he was for sure part an essential part of the hiring [01:05:15] committee. Of course.

Prav Solanki: So what’s the what’s the process? Right. Someone quite high up Phillip’s [01:05:20] vice president. Um, how does somebody like strawman first of all, find [01:05:25] someone like you? Right. Well, I’m just curious. What is the process? Is there a a recruitment [01:05:30] agency that are tasked to find Rob?

Robert van Geffen: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Is [01:05:35] that right? There’s a so a recruiter will have come to you. And then what was the process then? [01:05:40] Did you go to the recruiter? Were you headhunted? What was that? What was that process at the time and then [01:05:45] and then that initial meeting with Australia. You said you ended up in Basel. You met people, you felt the energy. [01:05:50] Just just give me a whistle stop tour of how you got the job. What [01:05:55] was that whole hiring process like? In the interview process.

Robert van Geffen: You [01:06:00] know, I think it was it. I was headhunted by a company asked by [01:06:05] Stralman to support in finding the right profile. Right. Yeah. Then I had an interview with [01:06:10] the headhunting company. Yeah. They looked already way back then. They [01:06:15] already talked a lot about. So how do you lead teams? How do [01:06:20] you how are you? So it was really about an soon after. [01:06:25] I understand that astrology has that compass. It’s all about iwe and it it’s [01:06:30] developing. It is more the content which is how you manage teams and AI is about you. Okay. [01:06:35] So they really provoked me already in that setting, right? I think then I [01:06:40] had a couple of interviews in between with HR leader, also with the CEO. More [01:06:45] teams. Okay. And then I was invited to do a a full [01:06:50] day interview Hour by hour with the the leader. So the [01:06:55] former CMO had of the important business the head of the new the new digital [01:07:00] business head of HR CEO. So it [01:07:05] was just a full day of pressure.

Prav Solanki: One after another.

Robert van Geffen: One after another. Uh, there wasn’t this [01:07:10] room. It was sort of sometimes, I mean, that room. And I remember there the the heat. [01:07:15] So I flew in was here a day and I flew out. Yeah. And I think they all had [01:07:20] different lenses to poke me. Provoke me.

Prav Solanki: What were they? What [01:07:25] were they? One on one roll. Were they one on one? Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: One on one on. Quite deep. [01:07:30]

Prav Solanki: Mhm.

Robert van Geffen: Uh, so it was about content. Some were more focussed on my expertise [01:07:35] in certain domains. Right. The content knowledge. Uh some of them were more focusing on [01:07:40] me as a leader, how I lead teams. And with Reiner [01:07:45] it was of course, about the content, but it was very much focussed on how to lead teams. Uh, who am [01:07:50] I as a person? How can I maintain the, you know, the the the the [01:07:55] the the team setting with also making changes? Uh, it’s a lot of change management. [01:08:00] Yeah. And I think it’s in the end, you know, I think everybody [01:08:05] was like, uh, thumbs up. And then you go more into the contractual [01:08:10] side of things, but, you know, that is more the paperwork. Right? For me, the most [01:08:15] important if you if you are in such a, uh, in such a situation, it’s sort [01:08:20] of, uh, yeah, it’s both sides. Right. For me, it was also being exposed to them. Yeah, [01:08:25] it’s the other.

Prav Solanki: So you.

Robert van Geffen: Also observe.

Prav Solanki: Your interviewing [01:08:30] as well. Right. I’m, I’m.

Robert van Geffen: As much.

Prav Solanki: In.

Robert van Geffen: Assessing. I’m doing the same. [01:08:35]

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: Uh, but I’m humble. Right. So it’s not the thing I talk about in that moment. But after [01:08:40] that, when I flew out and I was in the train, and then [01:08:45] I was always already called by the Head-hunter to say, they want to. They want to go [01:08:50] next round or they want to. I think what they want to make me an offer that was in the [01:08:55] train back from. So I flew from Amsterdam, from Basel to Amsterdam, and [01:09:00] in the train, the lady from the head, and which I still have a good connection with. She’s now a CMO [01:09:05] at a different company.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Robert van Geffen: We still exchange notes.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: It’s a beer brewery, [01:09:10] funnily enough, though, so we also build a good connection. So that’s [01:09:15] I can’t do it differently. Yeah. You know, it’s it’s a genuine I know she [01:09:20] had a role and I know she also is paid by putting me in.

Prav Solanki: Into that.

Robert van Geffen: Role. It went [01:09:25] a little bit deeper than that right. Yes. He also understood my situation and the travelling. And [01:09:30] I’m a family man. So it she’s I think because [01:09:35] she went so deep, I think she also was up for a change in her role. If I, if I read her a little [01:09:40] bit because she she was also authentic. She’s just also an authentic leader and now she, [01:09:45] she has a very nice model where we can exchange notes. She even [01:09:50] put me put another person forward. I saw recently who I will talk to. Yeah, [01:09:55] because I will never say no if people come to me. Robert, do you have time for a coffee? Of course. [01:10:00] Yeah. Robert, do you want to have or do you. Do [01:10:05] you like to talk about a certain opportunity or a project? Of course. [01:10:10] I never say no. Maybe that’s my pitfall as well. In the end, I’m [01:10:15] able to say no because it’s agenda wise, capacity wise, or focus [01:10:20] wise. Not the right time. Yeah, but it always starts with a coffee like we did. It always [01:10:25] starts with just a genuine A draft. Because I was also curious [01:10:30] to you because I saw your name pop up, so, uh, so regularly. [01:10:35]

Prav Solanki: Mhm.

Robert van Geffen: So I was also just curious and you know, that moment was there and it [01:10:40] was a very nice exchange of like minded folks in an industry [01:10:45] which is so interesting, and we have both different roles, but [01:10:50] on many forms, so similar. But you talk about experience. I talk about experience. [01:10:55] You talk about smiles, I talk about smiles. But we have just a different role in an ecosystem [01:11:00] where we all create a partnerships amongst each other [01:11:05] and smiles in the end.

Prav Solanki: So yeah.

Robert van Geffen: And that’s what I we need [01:11:10] to level play a little bit of we are not com petition. We are partners [01:11:15] in crime in the ecosystem creating smiles for the future. Yeah yeah. And that’s [01:11:20] what I that’s a different level of.

Prav Solanki: Collaboration and thinking right. For [01:11:25] sure.

Robert van Geffen: Collaboration. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: It’s almost like you’ve been you’ve come from one organisation [01:11:30] and you’ve been parachuted straight in to the top of the organisation [01:11:35] to fulfil an incredibly important role, a lot of pressure [01:11:40] and in charge of a lot of people. Right? Leading a [01:11:45] leading a team. Leading a lot of people. So. Um, what was the direction that you [01:11:50] were given? Were you given an assignment? Look, here’s your assignment. This is what I [01:11:55] want you to do. Change the organisation, achieve these goals, these targets, these metrics, [01:12:00] this change. What was your what is the sort of assignment [01:12:05] given to somebody at your level in such a large organisation when [01:12:10] you’re parachuted straight into that role? Was there a meeting with lots of people or was [01:12:15] it with the CEO or what was the. Tell me about that.

Robert van Geffen: Well, I think the [01:12:20] first week I landed, uh, the Monday I had lunch, uh, because it’s, [01:12:25] it’s a Swiss culture. So it’s a lot of it’s a people in essence, dentistry is a people business. [01:12:30] One is a people company. So there’s a lot of exchanges, people, uh, coffee [01:12:35] meetings, lunch. So I had a lunch with, uh, the, the CMO [01:12:40] at the time to listen to him. And that was sort of day [01:12:45] one.

Prav Solanki: And then that was right. Was that rain at the time or.

Robert van Geffen: No, no, no, the CMO was [01:12:50] the whole okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he’s not hanging up. Amaya. Yes. [01:12:55] Yeah, but he did CMO next to his, uh, to his job. But [01:13:00] there was a site, uh, it was sort.

Prav Solanki: Of a side hustle.

Robert van Geffen: Yeah. And it was implant focussed, [01:13:05] um, where my assignment is, of course, broader than that. Right. It’s, uh. Yeah, the [01:13:10] full the full ecosystem of Sherman Group. Um, so that was [01:13:15] day one. Uh, of course, I, of course needed to get to know the people. So I only had a [01:13:20] a stand up coffee chat with all the team members so that they get they get exposed. About me. What [01:13:25] I’m after that was all day one. I think in the first week I also had lunch [01:13:30] and that was a debrief with Gil. So he took me to a restaurant close [01:13:35] by and he literally, um, Gave me a very [01:13:40] clear directive of, you know, what do I need to do? Focus. But [01:13:45] he also made he also read me a little bit in the in the hiring that he knew [01:13:50] that I am very action oriented. But he said, Robert, if I can only give [01:13:55] one strong tip. Learn, understand. Medtech [01:14:00] is different than dentistry. Dentistry is different than medtech. The team you need to get [01:14:05] to know the team get to know the customers. Get to know the regions. Get to know the best. So learn, [01:14:10] learn, learn where you land to to your point where you parachuted. Um, [01:14:15] of course he he had a clear guidance on where to focus on first [01:14:20] hundred days. Uh, and he also wanted to get a first assessment after [01:14:25] a certain period on a diagnostic diagnostic on some of the [01:14:30] things I needed to tackle.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Robert van Geffen: So in parallel of sort of understanding the customers, [01:14:35] understanding the industry, understanding Where did I land? Yes, with my parachute. [01:14:40] I needed to go deep on the team because I needed to bring a team together, which was not one [01:14:45] team yet. I need to work on a diagnostic. And [01:14:50] that all where I make my deliberate choice is that I didn’t want to change the [01:14:55] the team, get people outside in, but really work from [01:15:00] within. That meant also that I needed to go deep with the people on [01:15:05] projects they managed before, and they also needed to let go a little [01:15:10] bit of their ego and kill their own darlings almost by going [01:15:15] looking at something they already hatched out before and then [01:15:20] with some fresh perspectives and thinking, also do things differently. [01:15:25] So you can imagine here you built a house. You are very proud of it. Yeah, [01:15:30] there comes somebody who comes from the outside and questions the [01:15:35] things they did and they did it themselves. So some [01:15:40] of the team members did their own diagnostic on something they created. Yeah. Looked at it again [01:15:45] because I think they did it based on trust. They trusted me.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. [01:15:50]

Robert van Geffen: And I was fully in. So I asked the question. I go deep five times, [01:15:55] why did you do it? Why did you do it? And then they came in many cases to the to [01:16:00] the realisation. Oh yeah, maybe we could have done it differently.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, [01:16:05] yeah. Um, but you’re the new guy coming [01:16:10] in telling him to do it differently. Right. So just just back to that assignment actually. [01:16:15] Right. So were you told to build and grow a team? Were you told to come [01:16:20] in and change what the team were doing? What what were the if you were to take it as [01:16:25] the broad objectives of during that lunch? Um, [01:16:30] perhaps what was was there an assignment? Was there a way? Were [01:16:35] there some broad? This is what I want you to achieve in the first 12 months. Or [01:16:40] was it just learn, learn, learn.

Robert van Geffen: No, no.

Prav Solanki: There must have been some.

Robert van Geffen: No, [01:16:45] no, it was it wasn’t a a double A4 with clearly what, what Jim wanted [01:16:50] to have me do.

Prav Solanki: He passed through at 84.

Robert van Geffen: Yeah, a double sided.

Prav Solanki: Okay. [01:16:55] What did that said?

Robert van Geffen: The first priorities in my first [01:17:00] 100 days.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Robert van Geffen: Where did we want to do? Have me focus on [01:17:05] the diagnostic. What what did they need. What it needed to contain.

Prav Solanki: Mhm. [01:17:10]

Robert van Geffen: Very clear. And that’s also where I focus on. [01:17:15]

Prav Solanki: Mhm.

Robert van Geffen: And I think that’s also respecting and the setting you [01:17:20] land in. Yeah. You know it’s the, it’s the um if [01:17:25] you are open minded you want to of course I know a lot but in the context [01:17:30] you don’t know. You don’t know a lot. So I didn’t want to be a knower. I [01:17:35] needed to be a learner. So I was very appreciative [01:17:40] of the of the initial brief.

Prav Solanki: Um.

Robert van Geffen: And honestly, some of the things are [01:17:45] still moving forward in that way. But when you really focus then on that, [01:17:50] on that, that creates also space in your head to create and design [01:17:55] the best team you can and go deeper on the people and understand where they are coming from.

Prav Solanki: And [01:18:00] so in terms of your role, how often will [01:18:05] you report to Guillaume? How often will you will you have meetings with him and what are [01:18:10] those meetings like? How long are they? What are the conversations that you have? Obviously that [01:18:15] there’s certain things that you can’t tell me. But, but, but but what’s the general context and [01:18:20] direction that you get get from those conversations. And are you reaching out to him for [01:18:25] a stretch every now and then?

Robert van Geffen: For sure. Um, but [01:18:30] I don’t think you need to reach out for John for a stretch. That’s because [01:18:35] he’s a leader with so much passion that that everybody feels feels stretched. Right. That’s also [01:18:40] how we are growing as we do. Yeah. And making impact to the towards our patients. Uh, [01:18:45] so every month I build a very strong report. So at the at the beginning of [01:18:50] the year, I set my objectives, set my priorities for the year. Um, every month I track [01:18:55] back, we have an okay framework objective, key results. We measure [01:19:00] we look at the activities, we show the progress. So every month he has a view on [01:19:05] all the things I have promised the company to deliver. Yeah. [01:19:10] And then every two months I have a, uh, a one on one. Okay. That’s [01:19:15] the routine. Uh, and I think, you know, that’s sort of how you build trust [01:19:20] is that you just do it systematically and continuously, and [01:19:25] you do it consistently. And that’s how my whole team now operates, sort [01:19:30] of every month. We know also where to report on. Uh, we look at it, [01:19:35] we look at the, uh, uh, the initiatives.

Robert van Geffen: And that’s how we manage the to make sure that the owners [01:19:40] are aware of what we’re doing. And in that report, we can also ask for support needed. What projects [01:19:45] coming or concerns we have. So it’s also a way to flag certain things [01:19:50] where we believe we need to pull the and then need to push forwards, need support. So [01:19:55] he’s very open and looking at progress. But also where does he [01:20:00] need to help. It’s an exchange. It’s really it’s more than [01:20:05] a report. It’s an exchange. But if you have it in a report fashion, [01:20:10] you can also have the time to talk about other things because you have the routine, [01:20:15] you have the discipline, and then you have time to talk about other things like scope, extension [01:20:20] or topics which are not going that smooth and where I need to support or [01:20:25] just brainstorm a little bit. Is this in line with. Is my direction of travel in [01:20:30] line with your direction of travel, or do we need to shape it a bit? Change [01:20:35] the. Yeah. Change the narrative or change the directive or change the the way we operate. [01:20:40]

Prav Solanki: So in your in your one on ones with him six times a year. Yeah. [01:20:45]

Robert van Geffen: Well at least at least at least.

Prav Solanki: Okay. So what happens. How long [01:20:50] is a one on one with the CEO strand. Right. How much time? How much face time do you [01:20:55] get? What does that look like? Is it super efficient? Time focussed? You’ve got you’ve got these [01:21:00] key things like. Look, let me into one of those conversations. Right. Give me an insight into [01:21:05] what happens in that meeting.

Robert van Geffen: So most of the time we try to do it in [01:21:10] person face to face. Yeah. Again it’s all energy right?

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: For sure. We start [01:21:15] typically on how. How are you doing? Feeling temperature. Right. I [01:21:20] already sent the report upfront. Typically he has. He prints [01:21:25] everything. He reads everything. And then I just talk through [01:21:30] the points I want to have his focus on. And then, of course, he will come back with questions. [01:21:35]

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Robert van Geffen: And these are the planned meetings. But this is sort of the ritual of the one on [01:21:40] ones. The guide, the conversation around, uh, the, the the reports. We, we create the [01:21:45] OKRs we have set, the targets we have set next to that. We have also other [01:21:50] projects and programs, and that also has dedicated time and attention of him. [01:21:55] So we meet regularly. And I think that’s also important in an industry and [01:22:00] a company which is evolving very rapidly, that you stay the course so that [01:22:05] we stay the course based on he sees monthly where are where we are aiming for [01:22:10] and how we are tracking.

Prav Solanki: Um.

Robert van Geffen: And then we also have some strategic priorities [01:22:15] which are in parallel, being managed by members of my team, where [01:22:20] he has a certain, uh, Interest.

Prav Solanki: How big is the team, Rob? So [01:22:25] just give us a little bit of scale. Right. You’re reporting to the CEO. How many people are reporting to [01:22:30] you and how many people under that? Like, how many humans are you responsible for, Rob?

Robert van Geffen: More [01:22:35] than 20. Less than 120? No. [01:22:40] My my my, um, my direct team is, um, [01:22:45] around 100.

Prav Solanki: Wow. [01:22:50]

Robert van Geffen: You know, that’s pretty sizeable, right?

Prav Solanki: And they have people [01:22:55] under them, right? I’m assuming.

Robert van Geffen: No, that’s my. That’s the full team.

Prav Solanki: That’s the full team. [01:23:00]

Robert van Geffen: But as the global marketing responsible across the company. [01:23:05]

Prav Solanki: Um.

Robert van Geffen: We touch many marketeers in [01:23:10] the rest of the organisation.

Prav Solanki: So so interesting. So just to give me just to give me a little bit of [01:23:15] context to that. Right. So, um, as an agency, we do a lot of, a lot of work [01:23:20] with with this German group writing in different areas, with different brands and things like that. Right [01:23:25] now I work with, let’s say Caroline from Claire. [01:23:30] Correct? Okay. Who is product manager? Claire. Correct. [01:23:35] Okay. Mhm. Now, indirectly, she’s part [01:23:40] of your team because she does the marketing activities [01:23:45] in and around the events for clear. Correct. And some of the initiatives and things like [01:23:50] that. Right. Is she part of that 100 team or is she outside.

Robert van Geffen: Part [01:23:55] of the extended. So I have to call it in my direct [01:24:00] responsibility is the the 100 team. Yeah. But we we create a platform of touching multiple [01:24:05] multiple. So, you know, multiple hundred people across the globe.

Prav Solanki: Gotcha. [01:24:10]

Robert van Geffen: And um, that is also where we are becoming a bit of a [01:24:15] matrix organisation.

Prav Solanki: Mhm.

Robert van Geffen: Right. So that’s why I’m not about reporting [01:24:20] lines. I’m more about how many people do we touch in the commercial marketing space. [01:24:25] Yeah. And we create this platform and we share [01:24:30] all this wisdom and knowledge in the broader scheme of things. So [01:24:35] we have direct influence that sort of the hard line. But many other, many organisations [01:24:40] are more moving into an agile shape. Right.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: And therefore [01:24:45] I’m a strong believer in creating this platform of like minded people sharing [01:24:50] the knowledge and also the direction of travel. And we call that the [01:24:55] marketing club, which is consisting out of 1000 plus people. So [01:25:00] my reach is big in that sense, right? Yeah. Um, [01:25:05] and that’s also how we are becoming a more an enterprise organisation [01:25:10] as chairman. Yeah. And don’t don’t forget that we are a very family driven organisation. [01:25:15] But we also now have 12,000 people across the globe. So we [01:25:20] are in the midst of this, uh, this change. So beyond dentistry [01:25:25] changing beyond my team evolve and beyond. We are also evolving as a [01:25:30] as a, as a as an enterprise.

Prav Solanki: Enterprise organisation.

Robert van Geffen: That deserves [01:25:35] different thinking. Uh, so I never look at of course, I care about [01:25:40] my direct influence. Right? That’s the where I need the greatest belly fire halo effect. [01:25:45] Yeah, but the reach they have in the broader community is much wider. [01:25:50] And therefore, it’s all about brand position. So we are responsible, [01:25:55] strong group and all the different brands below. And every different touchpoint [01:26:00] needs to create this compelling, memorable experience. Because if [01:26:05] a click event isn’t on par with what we do in green [01:26:10] or near, then identical entity. Yeah, customers will have an opinion, right? [01:26:15]

Prav Solanki: Of course.

Robert van Geffen: They will. And you will. You will have. You [01:26:20] need to be first time, right? There’s no other way. In a in an industry [01:26:25] so competitive as we are. It needs to be first time. Right? And you don’t [01:26:30] have a second chance.

Prav Solanki: And so one of the things that has come out from [01:26:35] my conversations when working with people across trial and across multiple brands, [01:26:40] right. We once had to do a like a HR project where I was asked to interview a lot [01:26:45] of stranded customers and stranded team members and and pull the essence [01:26:50] of what strawman is. Okay. And so so the one [01:26:55] question I asked everyone, customers and team members [01:27:00] is, I want you to repeat the following after me and finish the sentence. Okay? [01:27:05] And the question was strawman is and [01:27:10] then whatever comes out of your heart, finish the sentence.

Robert van Geffen: Yes.

Prav Solanki: Overwhelmingly [01:27:15] from team. The majority of people [01:27:20] said family. Majority of people said family. Nobody [01:27:25] else knew what the other person had said. Nobody else knew I’d asked [01:27:30] that question. The strapline is family. I’ll send you the video, Rob. [01:27:35] It’s a really powerful video, right? And then customers went on to say [01:27:40] similar things with a similar sentiment. Right. And that brings me to the topic of culture. [01:27:45] Yeah. You touched upon it when you were talking about when you were leaving Philips and [01:27:50] you were joining Strassmann. And this, this marked difference in culture. So, so I hear [01:27:55] I hear the word culture a lot when, when speaking to, to, to [01:28:00] people from Sram. And I’m not just talking about green, I’m talking about [01:28:05] purple, I’m talking about what used to be red with clear. Correct. I’m, you know, identical [01:28:10] Wherever it is. There’s this, um, there’s this central culture [01:28:15] piece, and a lot of people talk about psychological safety. In fact, [01:28:20] you’ve probably mentioned it 2 or 3 times during this conversation. But I hear it a lot. And [01:28:25] there’s one other thing which I think deserves a separate conversation, which is around this play, a learner [01:28:30] piece that people talk about, right? But before we get stuck into that, just [01:28:35] just talk to me about the culture of Stralman and why, without [01:28:40] prompting, did the majority of people say family?

Robert van Geffen: Because, [01:28:45] you know, coming from an outside where culture was on the PowerPoint. [01:28:50]

Prav Solanki: Lip service.

Robert van Geffen: Lip service? I think in strawman, it’s what [01:28:55] people really, genuinely do. If you are interviewed for a role, [01:29:00] quite senior role right from the one leading it and and he makes it a point. [01:29:05] You need to take care of my family. In, in the way [01:29:10] he could. He can do it right, quite direct and also quite energetic because he’s [01:29:15] very passionate about it, you know, that’s it. And when I was just [01:29:20] in Stralman and I had my first I.T event in Singapore. It [01:29:25] was literally seeing a family and that were partners that [01:29:30] were customers that were strong and people coming together. And [01:29:35] then that’s not lip service. That’s real. Yeah. [01:29:40] And I think coming back to where we started. Right. If people see you talk the talk and [01:29:45] walk the walk and it’s genuine, authentic and real, [01:29:50] what will they remember?

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: And [01:29:55] this family feeling I don’t know whether there are different, uh, dreams of thoughts [01:30:00] about, um, family versus, uh, it’s a working family, [01:30:05] etc.. Right.

Prav Solanki: Sure.

Robert van Geffen: And I think people have a very strong people [01:30:10] know and understand. That’s the difference. So I [01:30:15] need to, uh, that’s part of the family as well, right? The vacuum.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, yeah.

Robert van Geffen: It’s doing her job [01:30:20] to clean it, but I need to have a little bit of silence around it. But [01:30:25] that’s part of the family.

Prav Solanki: Of course.

Robert van Geffen: We. I think what what I genuinely see [01:30:30] is we treat everybody and everyone equal, whatever [01:30:35] the level.

Prav Solanki: Whatever the hierarchy.

Robert van Geffen: Whatever the hierarchy. I [01:30:40] don’t think it’s about about hierarchy. It’s more than the time people have. Yeah. Because [01:30:45] depending on the hierarchy, for instance, you ask me, right, how much time do you spend with Theo? [01:30:50] With Guillaume? Enough.

Prav Solanki: Not enough.

Robert van Geffen: Enough. Because I know when [01:30:55] he when he. He’s caring about me. He’s caring about the team. And if he needs to spend more time with me, [01:31:00] he would do. But I know he doesn’t because he needs to then focus his time on other things. [01:31:05]

Prav Solanki: And you got respect for that time, right?

Robert van Geffen: I have totally respect for that time. Yeah. But therefore I also [01:31:10] respect the time that I send them exactly what we’re doing. Pre-read super comprehensive. [01:31:15] We build it, we work it with progress. And if there’s feedback, I will know because he [01:31:20] will give it. And I think in general that’s yeah, that’s based on this [01:31:25] respect trust treating everybody the same kind of philosophy. [01:31:30] And I can yes I would I would have done I, I was already framing [01:31:35] my answer. Um what would I start with. It’s the it’s the team. It’s the people. [01:31:40] It’s the family.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: And then you go more to the innovations [01:31:45] we have, the smiles we create. So I think it’s family, the impact [01:31:50] we have on our patients. And then you look at how. And this [01:31:55] is not lip service. This is really what I see from okay [01:32:00] two years in. But this is really what we do. And you are an outsider coming in, [01:32:05] touching the family. You see it across.

Prav Solanki: That’s my observation. Yeah, across all brands, [01:32:10] right? At every level. Right. Whether it’s Steve Booth, guy Bellamy. Um, [01:32:15] you know, whoever I’m interacting with, whether I’ve been to, you [01:32:20] know, international events, local events, you know, local study groups, um, [01:32:25] it’s the same feeling, right? From both customers and, um, [01:32:30] and team members. Right. And, um.

Robert van Geffen: And I think that is [01:32:35] the stickiness factor, you know, and therefore we are so passionate about the culture [01:32:40] because if you look at the innovations, we are ahead of the game, but also competition [01:32:45] is coming.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: If you look at the way we transform dentistry, you see also [01:32:50] competition is coming. I think the unique element we have [01:32:55] is our strong bonds across the ecosystem with partners, with [01:33:00] patients, with dentists. The professionals with the [01:33:05] clinical ity. The study clubs. Yeah. And it’s genuine because [01:33:10] if it’s not genuine after a year, it will not it will not it will not end [01:33:15] well. Right. It’s sort of genuine because it’s long lasting.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: So [01:33:20] it’s the genuine in the way we engage [01:33:25] with each other is how we engage with others. And that’s what you that’s something [01:33:30] you can’t copy. It’s it’s how we hire. It’s how we wire. [01:33:35] It’s how we instruct. And that comes back to the player learner.

Prav Solanki: Tell [01:33:40] me about that. What does that mean? What does what. What does that actually mean? [01:33:45]

Robert van Geffen: Learn. So understand. Never assume. Assumption [01:33:50] is the mother of all you know. Yeah. And be played. Be [01:33:55] a player in everything you do. Meaning? Feel fast, Learn [01:34:00] fast. So it’s really this agile, above the line growth [01:34:05] mindset, which is needed to be the [01:34:10] catalyst of on the foreground of dentistry becoming. [01:34:15] Yeah, we are changing. We are shaping digital. We are shaping dentistry together in the ecosystem, [01:34:20] together with our partners, together with the DSO. You were part of. Right? We [01:34:25] are on the foreground of something, so you need to learn and play the [01:34:30] play. A learner is really part of, uh, part of the the [01:34:35] pillars on where we build our culture on.

Prav Solanki: Being [01:34:40] in such a what I would call a high pressure, high energy [01:34:45] role. Okay. And how do you stay grounded [01:34:50] and energise for for a team of 100 that you’re [01:34:55] directly responsible for, for the wider organisation reporting to the [01:35:00] CEO. And you’re in a, you’re in a what I would consider to be a very high pressure, higher [01:35:05] energy, high responsibility role. What is it that you do. Let’s [01:35:10] say outside of work to maintain your sanity, [01:35:15] right. Whether it’s um, you know, I know we were talking about sport, exercise, meditation, [01:35:20] spirituality, kickboxing. [01:35:25] Just talk me through that part of your life. Right. And where [01:35:30] are you and when and where you get the time to fit that in and how how you whether you do prioritise [01:35:35] that. Yes. Talk to me about that.

Robert van Geffen: Yeah. So. I [01:35:40] must admit, I have never been so fit in my life at [01:35:45] this point in time. With all the pressure around me and all the I’ve never [01:35:50] been so fit.

Prav Solanki: Why remind us how old you are before you, before you kick in with that? Because most people [01:35:55] reach their peak of could fitness around about 26 to 30. Right.

Robert van Geffen: I’m 46. [01:36:00]

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Robert van Geffen: And honestly, I’m as fit as I can ever [01:36:05] be. Um, and I have also a very strong routine for [01:36:10] myself. So every morning I do my, of course, my coffee [01:36:15] moment, but I also do my physical things in the morning.

Prav Solanki: What’s the morning [01:36:20] for you, Rob?

Robert van Geffen: So wake up, check if the family is doing right. Because if I’m remote, [01:36:25] I check if the family is, uh. Good morning, I say to them, good morning.

Prav Solanki: What time do you wake [01:36:30] up?

Robert van Geffen: Uh, around six.

Prav Solanki: Around six.

Robert van Geffen: Okay. Earlier.

Prav Solanki: Mhm. [01:36:35]

Robert van Geffen: Um. But I have a morning routine. Wake up. [01:36:40] Say good morning to my family. Do my exercises.

Prav Solanki: Which [01:36:45] is what? Just to just.

Robert van Geffen: Push up for the burpees [01:36:50] that I want. So, uh, jump up. You know, all of all of this cold showers. [01:36:55]

Prav Solanki: How long? How long will you. Will you sort of do? Your physical stuff for? In the morning. An hour? [01:37:00] An hour. Okay.

Robert van Geffen: Go to our afterwards gym [01:37:05] and then go to the office. So that’s every every morning I do [01:37:10] it at home, but also in, in, in when I’m sort of in Basel. Sort of from from home. [01:37:15] And then around the weekend I try to do uh, [01:37:20] uh, in, in Basel, I try to do a running running also an hour like [01:37:25] ten K or so.

Prav Solanki: Is, is, is that in, is that instead of the morning peace [01:37:30] or is it is that as well as on top.

Robert van Geffen: So yesterday it’s a bit warm to do [01:37:35] ten K added five k. And I was sweating as if I did a ten. And then [01:37:40] I did a nice swim. So tonight I will also do a bit of a swim in the rain and then [01:37:45] over the weekend, you know I have very, very active boys. My, my, my youngest son is also [01:37:50] running like ten, 12, Of five, whatever. And I just join their routine [01:37:55] and I do kickboxing typically in the morning and our against the punching bag. Um, [01:38:00] so I do three hours of physical exercise just to stay fit. [01:38:05] Uh, and then every morning do my routine because I [01:38:10] feel that’s needed. Because if you travel so much, you have so [01:38:15] much stress, pressure. Um, I think, you know, physically [01:38:20] fit is also how to compensate all that pressure. And [01:38:25] of course, you know, I have my, my routine around. Um, the mindfulness thing. Right. [01:38:30] Um, just sitting still and checking a bit where [01:38:35] you are. Where are my toes? Where are my feet? A bit of that.

Prav Solanki: Guided sort of [01:38:40] awareness?

Robert van Geffen: Yes, awareness. But it can also be entering the room by opening. Opening [01:38:45] the door. And in that moment see where you are. Okay. It can be [01:38:50] long. It can be short. I think the most important is that you do it with, um, [01:38:55] with with focus and attention.

Prav Solanki: Intent.

Robert van Geffen: Intent. Yeah, yeah. And that’s also [01:39:00] because I am now a bit more. So time is also more, [01:39:05] uh, given and sort of a factor because I have less time at home. So [01:39:10] I need to balance. Right. So if you have less time, you become more contentful [01:39:15] versus that you have more time. And then you maybe use the time not wisely [01:39:20] enough. So it’s more intentional. I do everything more intentional, more focussed, [01:39:25] more open with the heart, more creating memorable experiences. [01:39:30] From the moment you have.

Prav Solanki: How much of your time are you away from? [01:39:35] The kids? The wife? How much time are you spending away from home in your typical. [01:39:40]

Robert van Geffen: Once every week, three days a week?

Prav Solanki: Okay. [01:39:45]

Robert van Geffen: And that’s sort of normal routine. But if you add travel like [01:39:50] quarter one this year was killing. It was uh, we also reflected [01:39:55] it was a lot. It was a lot.

Prav Solanki: Conferences, events.

Robert van Geffen: These events flying over the globe, [01:40:00] including weekends, you know, because if you have a routine, it’s fine. [01:40:05] You get used to the routine and you get also used to that rhythm. Yeah. But if [01:40:10] you then have different fly out times over the weekend, in the weekends.

Prav Solanki: Different [01:40:15] time zones.

Robert van Geffen: Different time zones, you know, staying connected is hard, right?

Prav Solanki: Then of [01:40:20] course it is.

Robert van Geffen: So that’s that’s but that’s part of the the deal. [01:40:25] And that’s just part of the dialogue you need to have uh, also there with heart mind [01:40:30] you check in with yourself. You check in with your with your family, with your wife, with [01:40:35] the kids, you know, and, uh, with teenage boys, it’s fine. Sometimes they are very happy [01:40:40] that I’m not always around. There’s also physically part of my letting [01:40:45] go. Right. Because, yeah, This is also the. Sometimes things happen for a [01:40:50] reason. So this is all a part of it.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: It’s it’s manufactured it’s way [01:40:55] to that situation. Right.

Robert van Geffen: It is that and yeah that’s also [01:41:00] part of it.

Prav Solanki: Has the has the physical mental focus in your [01:41:05] life being being consistent throughout the last sort of 19 years or so of your career or is it [01:41:10] something that’s, um, more recent? What has that [01:41:15] always been a like your morning routine? You’re doing your hour of exercise, you’re going for your run, you [01:41:20] swim, you kickboxing. And is that something that’s had more emphasis more recently? [01:41:25] You say you’re the fittest you’ve ever been. So is that something that made its way into your life more recently, [01:41:30] or have you have you upped the intensity?

Robert van Geffen: I think the intensity kicked in [01:41:35] more strongly because I set myself high bars right, especially whilst I’m competitive [01:41:40] and I see my sons becoming a better version of themselves, but also becoming [01:41:45] stronger than me. So that’s why I need to see how far I can still sort [01:41:50] of carry myself.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, yeah.

Robert van Geffen: Because my my oldest son runs I think five [01:41:55] K in 18 minutes. One.

Prav Solanki: Okay. Wow.

Robert van Geffen: So I [01:42:00] and again physically I will never get there. But I want to show them also lead [01:42:05] by example. Whatever age.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: Whatever background [01:42:10] you can become fit and it doesn’t matter. Fit. Everybody needs [01:42:15] to do a triathlon or an Ironman. But if you want to, if [01:42:20] you want to grow as a human being, um, [01:42:25] and you want to sort of show what’s good and you want to become a better version, you need to [01:42:30] work it. You need to work your mental, your heart, your physical. It’s that’s why I mean, with [01:42:35] congruent, you need to work all the muscles. The ones who are visible, but [01:42:40] also the ones who are not visible but clearly have an impact on you and your and your [01:42:45] life and the way you, you, you are as a human being. And this is [01:42:50] just my way. And and I don’t say it’s everybody’s way. No, [01:42:55] but this is the way I. Yeah, this this is the way I can get my energy in [01:43:00] and can put my energy out and and and get energy in and get energy out. And [01:43:05] this is the way I balance. It’s all about balancing in the end, your [01:43:10] energy if you if you come back to the essence of energy.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Of course. [01:43:15]

Prav Solanki: And if you were to do this all over again, Rob, or if [01:43:20] you were to look back at yourself 19 years ago and give yourself [01:43:25] one piece of advice, looking back with the with [01:43:30] the knowledge, the reference that you have today, what what would you be telling yourself?

Robert van Geffen: Don’t [01:43:35] be afraid to show your emotion and talk about.

Prav Solanki: It.

Robert van Geffen: And [01:43:40] not shy away from it.

Prav Solanki: And, um.

Robert van Geffen: Be [01:43:45] honest. Yes.

Prav Solanki: And [01:43:50] building on that, as we bring this conversation to a close, Rob and I think we’re probably going [01:43:55] to need to do a part two.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Prav Solanki: Imagine [01:44:00] it was your last day on the planet, Rob.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: You [01:44:05] had your three boys by your side. They wouldn’t [01:44:10] be boys anymore. Um, but you had your loved ones [01:44:15] by your side, and you needed to leave them with three pieces of wisdom. What [01:44:20] three pieces of advice would you give them?

Robert van Geffen: I [01:44:25] would I would always sort of give them the advice. [01:44:30] Experience over, uh, experience over things.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. [01:44:35]

Robert van Geffen: I would always give them the advice. Stay [01:44:40] close to where your heart and passion is. Whatever the consequences, and [01:44:45] I would always give them the advice. Stay connected. You, the three of you.

Prav Solanki: Beautiful. [01:44:50]

Prav Solanki: Beautiful.

Robert van Geffen: Because that’s [01:44:55] the heritage, right? And that’s the halo effect.

Prav Solanki: And it means you’ve done a good job, [01:45:00] right?

Robert van Geffen: We. So my wife and me.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: Yeah, of course we. It’s all [01:45:05] about the we it’s it’s never about me. Um, but that’s also the tip my father gave [01:45:10] me at his last. He said.

Prav Solanki: Robert.

Robert van Geffen: I [01:45:15] wish I would have enjoyed it more.

Prav Solanki: Oh, really? [01:45:20] Yes.

Prav Solanki: What do you think he meant by that?

Robert van Geffen: He worked so.

Prav Solanki: Hard.

Robert van Geffen: And [01:45:25] during his time of, uh, 2 or 3 years of [01:45:30] cancer. Right. He went to the pub, he started playing. He [01:45:35] had a brilliant mind. He was a he had a photographic memory, honestly. So he was [01:45:40] good in playing cards? Yeah, because he memorised everything he knew. Every card of the four players [01:45:45] at the table. And I think he was he was enjoying life more at the end [01:45:50] than maybe during the ride. And that was just his way, right? That was his upbringing. His. [01:45:55]

Prav Solanki: His.

Robert van Geffen: Him being a father was I need to take care.

Prav Solanki: Of. [01:46:00]

Robert van Geffen: That. They are having a good life.

Prav Solanki: Mhm.

Robert van Geffen: But maybe [01:46:05] he was enjoying that last half. That last part of his life. [01:46:10] And that was, that was his gift to us. Enjoy [01:46:15] it in the moment whatever you do.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: And that’s [01:46:20] why if I’m doing it, if I’m doing this, if I’m doing whatever I, I [01:46:25] can’t be any different than me.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. And [01:46:30] then.

Robert van Geffen: Yeah. [01:46:35] That makes you vulnerable. They have therefore you need to do the work. But that also gives the energy [01:46:40] and the authenticity to whatever you do. Um, and I [01:46:45] think therefore I’m so fitting in the culture of and the family of strongmen [01:46:50] because everybody is fully in.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: That’s the that’s [01:46:55] the fun, right? Sometimes it happens for a reason and that’s why I’m here. That’s why we talk. Because [01:47:00] also.

Prav Solanki: Of.

Robert van Geffen: Course, had a coffee because I think we are raised in a certain [01:47:05] way, humble in a certain way, and always opened for learning in a certain.

Prav Solanki: Way, [01:47:10] for sure and sure.

Robert van Geffen: And yeah, that’s that’s how things [01:47:15] then come together.

Prav Solanki: Two more questions, Rob.

Prav Solanki: Oh my God. Yes. Any [01:47:20] more questions? So, um.

Prav Solanki: What would your legacy be? What would you what [01:47:25] would you how would you hope to be remembered? So Rob was.

Robert van Geffen: The [01:47:30] sentence Someone who was able [01:47:35] to trigger me and allowed me to become a better version of myself, [01:47:40] whatever the trigger.

Prav Solanki: Was.

Robert van Geffen: It can be a subtle nudge. That can be [01:47:45] a deeper question. That can be a conversation we had, that can be something [01:47:50] sparking from this session for them to think a little bit more deeper. [01:47:55]

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: So I just want.

Prav Solanki: To.

Robert van Geffen: I just want to make and [01:48:00] that’s a very, very strong stretch.

Prav Solanki: Right.

Robert van Geffen: But if I look.

Prav Solanki: Around.

Robert van Geffen: The. [01:48:05]

Prav Solanki: World.

Robert van Geffen: I don’t like polarisation. I like to be [01:48:10] in the middle where we still have the conversation.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: With your own opinion. But [01:48:15] let’s continue to have a conversation. Because if we don’t have the conversation. [01:48:20]

Prav Solanki: Where are we? Yeah. Yeah, [01:48:25] absolutely.

Robert van Geffen: And and being a leader or being in my position [01:48:30] I have influence. So when I can reach people like we have. We [01:48:35] can reach people. And that goes beyond, you know, talking about dentistry. And the innovations. [01:48:40] That goes way, way beyond sort of touching people’s lives. Yes. [01:48:45] With our innovations. Yes. Which the things you are doing? Yes, we do the things [01:48:50] we are doing as a collective, but also provoke a little bit on deeper [01:48:55] rooted systemic things, which keeps me awake at night, for instance, [01:49:00] raising my boys, being mature male participants in [01:49:05] society so that they also treat the women they touch in the right way with, [01:49:10] with the respect and dignity. Yeah, that’s also the way I look at diversity. Female, [01:49:15] male. It’s all about talents. But for sure we have our role to play as males. Of [01:49:20] course we do. And we also need to talk about it.

Prav Solanki: I think that’s important. [01:49:25] I think that’s something that you actually really surprised me at the beginning of the conversation when you [01:49:30] told me about the right, the the initial conversations. [01:49:35] What was it?

Robert van Geffen: Fire the fire. The father’s the fire.

Prav Solanki: Fire! Father’s [01:49:40] fire. I was thinking fire, brothers. Because you said they were your.

Robert van Geffen: Brothers.

Prav Solanki: In the end.

Robert van Geffen: But in [01:49:45] the end, they become brothers because you go so deep. Yeah. And [01:49:50] and after that, you know, in that year journey with those brothers. I still [01:49:55] have connection with those brothers. I can still lean on them, because if I walk with them and [01:50:00] walk and talk with them, I go outside. We have a walk. You’d [01:50:05] go so much deeper than normal conversations because [01:50:10] they know exactly about your dark side. They know exactly about your bright sides. They know exactly [01:50:15] how I’m wired from deep, deep within.

Prav Solanki: Because you’ve shown your vulnerabilities, right.

Robert van Geffen: You [01:50:20] don’t want to know. That’s that’s a separate conversation all the time. We [01:50:25] went deep. Really. We went deep. But that created a bond for life. [01:50:30]

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: For sure. And that’s also my bouncing. Some of them are not in the business where [01:50:35] I am in in a position I am in. And what they really said, Robert, it [01:50:40] was so interesting that I’ve never met somebody on your position who’s so vulnerable. [01:50:45]

Prav Solanki: Mhm.

Robert van Geffen: Um, because then I could also change a little [01:50:50] bit of their perception towards people in business, not not being emotional or vulnerable. [01:50:55] So I, I changed a little bit of their perspective. But by showing [01:51:00] how I am.

Prav Solanki: Helps you as.

Robert van Geffen: Well as me because that’s the mirror. Yeah. [01:51:05] You know what I mean. So that’s a bit of that, that legacy so that. Yeah, I don’t like to be [01:51:10] put into a box because I have a label.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Robert van Geffen: I want to be, [01:51:15] I want to be put in a box because I had a conversation.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. [01:51:20]

Robert van Geffen: And that’s about. Yeah. Play a learner. I want to understand [01:51:25] first before I judge, and I never judge because justice is a negative connotation. [01:51:30] Before I assume that I know because there’s so much deeper. People are [01:51:35] so much more rich. But you need to you need to poke [01:51:40] a little bit to get to that richness.

Prav Solanki: To tease it out.

Robert van Geffen: Write it out.

Prav Solanki: Last [01:51:45] question. Rob. Um. Fantasy dinner [01:51:50] party. You can invite only three people, dead [01:51:55] or alive. Famous? Not famous. Doesn’t really [01:52:00] matter. Who would they be and why?

Robert van Geffen: Yeah, my notes are there, but from [01:52:05] the heart. He’s the author of the book Be More Pilot. [01:52:10] The pink book. He’s a pirate. And I like to be surrounded by rebels [01:52:15] with a cause. Each one.

Prav Solanki: Mhm.

Robert van Geffen: Brené [01:52:20] Brown, the author of Dare to Lead.

Prav Solanki: Mhm.

Robert van Geffen: Because [01:52:25] that’s a book and that’s a nice mix between the two. Yeah. Yeah. [01:52:30] And the third one. Ooh that was tough right. Because I would love to see my father at the table [01:52:35] back.

Prav Solanki: I knew you were going to say that. I knew you were going to say that because. [01:52:40]

Robert van Geffen: But my wife told me, Robert, don’t go that emotional. But that’s me. I can’t, [01:52:45] I can’t.

Prav Solanki: I knew I knew you were going to say that, Rob.

Robert van Geffen: But but hold on. So yes, maybe [01:52:50] he will be there in spirit.

Prav Solanki: Mhm.

Robert van Geffen: I would prefer [01:52:55] to get, um, Da Vinci in.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Robert van Geffen: Because [01:53:00] at his time, at his age, I think it’s sort [01:53:05] of in his, in his.

Prav Solanki: In that time.

Robert van Geffen: Oh my God, how [01:53:10] can you be so innovative and disruptive. Yeah. Smart. So [01:53:15] in that mix. Right. If you have people who are here and also somebody [01:53:20] like so creative. So You know, so progressive, [01:53:25] innovative at the same table. And maybe they’re my fault. My, my my father. [01:53:30] Just being proud to see it. Maybe not as an active participant, but more to [01:53:35] show him where I am an observer. Make him proud as a fly on the [01:53:40] wall or or an energy in the room.

Prav Solanki: Is it is it important for you that [01:53:45] your dad is proud of where you are today? If he could see you now? What [01:53:50] do you think he’d be thinking? What do you think he’d say to you?

Robert van Geffen: I know he’s there because I believe in [01:53:55] in energy also on that front.

Prav Solanki: Mhm.

Robert van Geffen: Of course, you know as [01:54:00] a, as a as a son, you want to, you want to be recognised by your, your mother but also [01:54:05] from your father.

Prav Solanki: Mhm.

Robert van Geffen: And I’m sure he’s proud. In my early days when he was sick I [01:54:10] invited him for the first event I managed and he was so pretty. But he couldn’t walk [01:54:15] even, you know, he was in pain but he was there. Yeah. And that’s [01:54:20] a memory.

Prav Solanki: Of course, of course.

Robert van Geffen: And what I do with my boss. I’m so proud. You know, [01:54:25] if I talk about my boss. And again, the tip I, I don’t.

Prav Solanki: You get emotional, [01:54:30] right?

Robert van Geffen: Yeah, I get emotional. Yeah. Why? Because they are. I’m [01:54:35] so proud of them.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, they have such a [01:54:40] good compass. And yes, that’s the work we put in and that’s the showing. How how [01:54:45] to how to become a mature male. But they also do [01:54:50] so much themselves. Yeah. And that’s about letting go. Because being proud is also [01:54:55] I like to hang around with them. But being a father of [01:55:00] of of of children or a mother of children, I think the phase of trusting [01:55:05] that they have a strong compass and letting them go is a phase you need to just [01:55:10] go through.

Prav Solanki: Of course it is. Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: So that’s [01:55:15] the bittersweetness of being a parent, right?

Prav Solanki: Yeah, yeah [01:55:20] it is.

Robert van Geffen: It’s sweet and bitter at the same time. Yeah. And I can only, [01:55:25] uh. I can only, uh, take the, uh, the take the reflection [01:55:30] from that whole process. And that’s what I, what I take back into my. The way I [01:55:35] lead, the way I manage, the way I guide, the way I talk. Yes, [01:55:40] I know with my lighting. Oh, my God, we are in such a super, super emotional [01:55:45] state that yes, we talk about the good. Yes, we talk about the bad. And yes, we have [01:55:50] the ugly conversations. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. And [01:55:55] people love it. At least I love it because I don’t want to. I want to create a setting [01:56:00] where I can be the best version of myself, because if I’m the best version of myself, [01:56:05] I can also create.

Prav Solanki: Projects that projects that.

Robert van Geffen: Right? Well, that that and [01:56:10] when they when did people see that and they feel it, they also [01:56:15] edge up.

Prav Solanki: Including your kids, right? Including the boys? Yeah. [01:56:20] Of course.

Robert van Geffen: And that’s. That’s what we do.

Prav Solanki: You know, you we [01:56:25] we started this conversation about letting go. Yeah. That being a very, very difficult thing. [01:56:30] And I’ve been through that process. Right. And both of my older kids, uh, [01:56:35] one of them’s at university. My my eldest, she’s come back to live at home. [01:56:40] Okay. So we let go. She went to Edinburgh and we had [01:56:45] no idea what was going to happen next. Right. Would she find a job in Manchester? Very [01:56:50] unlikely. Very, very unlikely. Right. She did various internships. [01:56:55] And just look at it. That she landed a job in Manchester. Her dream [01:57:00] job.

Robert van Geffen: How are you doing here?

Prav Solanki: So she’s moved back home, right? And she’s living with us. Right. [01:57:05] So we let go, and now she’s come back as a completely different human [01:57:10] being. As a woman.

Robert van Geffen: Yes.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. And it’s so beautiful to [01:57:15] see that. Right. And as a father. Right. She’s come back with [01:57:20] a boyfriend. Mhm. Okay. And if [01:57:25] I had to pick somebody the character, the mannerisms, [01:57:30] the respect, the nature, she’s [01:57:35] nailed it. Absolutely nailed it right. She’s picked the perfect guy. Okay. [01:57:40] I don’t have a single thing that. And and to please [01:57:45] me to to hit that for my daughter. You the the bar [01:57:50] is insanely high. Mhm. Right. Insanely, insanely high. But she’s nailed that. But [01:57:55] but but why is that. It’s because of the values. It’s the values that we’ve instilled [01:58:00] in her as parents.

Robert van Geffen: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. So we should have had every confidence they [01:58:05] should pick the right guy or should match with the right guy. Right. But it’s it’s [01:58:10] always a worry. I still have the same worry for my younger two daughters, right? It will always [01:58:15] be there. Um.

Robert van Geffen: That’s sort of the, you know, the father [01:58:20] lion want to protect their their cubs, right? For sure. And and to your point. [01:58:25] Now you have strike. You know, you have an ace. An ace. [01:58:30] But even if it would not be an ace. Yeah, it will be all good. All [01:58:35] good, because it’s just made up for the for the process season or the, you know, [01:58:40] it’s it’s part of everybody’s journey.

Prav Solanki: Of course it.

Robert van Geffen: Is. And I think that that is sort of uh, [01:58:45] that is where we are. Right. As, as um. And that’s how I look at it. [01:58:50] It’s just a journey we are on. And if you enjoy the journey, whatever [01:58:55] the journey takes you is just, you know, be [01:59:00] grateful for what you learn from, from that process during the journey.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Yeah. [01:59:05] For sure.

Robert van Geffen: Rob. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: I just need to say thank you [01:59:10] so much for your time today, right? It is. I think this has been an extension of the [01:59:15] coffee that we had. I think we touched upon a few of the things that we discussed, and we took [01:59:20] a few things a little bit further.

Robert van Geffen: Of course.

Prav Solanki: Yes. Um, and I just [01:59:25] like to thank you for your openness. You know, at the beginning of this, before we press the record button, every [01:59:30] guest that’s been on this podcast knows what I say. I say, is there anything that you want [01:59:35] to stay away from, stuff that you don’t want to talk about or stuff that you want to avoid? Maybe [01:59:40] some stuff we spoke about over coffee that you may not be comfortable. And you said to [01:59:45] me, let’s just do it. Prav. Okay. So you’ve been an incredibly [01:59:50] open book and you’ve shared from the heart. And I think anyone who listens to this will [01:59:55] feel like they joined us for coffee. So thank you for that, Rob.

Robert van Geffen: Yes, [02:00:00] we did it. No, but thank you as well. Um, back at you, I think, uh, [02:00:05] like I said, we are on different sides in the ecosystem, System, but that’s how [02:00:10] partners work, right? So we bring you together and, uh.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: No, [02:00:15] it was my pleasure. And, uh, I look forward to, uh, version two, but. Also [02:00:20] need some food now.

Prav Solanki: Save.

Prav Solanki: Save it.

[VOICE]: This [02:00:25] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get [02:00:30] to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [02:00:35] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [02:00:40]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to. [02:00:45]

Prav Solanki: The whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and [02:00:50] listening to what we had to say and what our guests had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value [02:00:55] out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And [02:01:00] if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so [02:01:05] so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: Anterior composites are an area that a lot of us have trouble with, and the [00:00:05] magic that you get from a patient where you haven’t drilled their teeth and yet [00:00:10] you’ve improved their appearance, is something that you know, the more whitening you do, the more aligners [00:00:15] you do, the more anterior composites you’ll have to do. If you’re not 100% on them, [00:00:20] get yourself on a course like Mini Smile Makeover with Depeche Palmer. Visit Mini Smile [00:00:25] Makeover for dates and details.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in [00:00:40] dentistry. Your hosts [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure [00:00:50] to welcome Kiran Chancler onto the podcast. Kiran is a. Can I call you a young dentist? [00:00:55] Yeah. Relatively young Dental young. A young dentist who’s [00:01:00] multi-award winning. Um, you got yourself sort of in a nice [00:01:05] sort of situation for minimally invasive restorative dentistry. Yeah. Um, [00:01:10] done some further education at the Eastman. Um, got yourself involved [00:01:15] with the BDA and all that. Still an associate.

Kiran Shankla: Still an associate. Yep.

Payman Langroudi: Can I [00:01:20] ask my burning question first?

Kiran Shankla: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Awards.

Kiran Shankla: Awards? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Because you’ve won [00:01:25] quite a lot of awards.

Kiran Shankla: Yep.

Payman Langroudi: Firstly, what’s the motivation? Secondly, what are the tactics? [00:01:30]

Kiran Shankla: Okay. So I think the awards to be honest I still don’t know [00:01:35] how how I’ve won them. You know it’s definitely feels like a out of body moment. [00:01:40] So you know if someone says to me, oh, you won the best young dentist for the South East, I’m like, oh, did I? [00:01:45] I was like, it doesn’t doesn’t feel real, if that makes sense. Um, the motivation for them, [00:01:50] I think, especially when you’ve sort of taken the path that I have, which I’m sure we’ll explore [00:01:55] where you’ve put a lot of your time and energy into education courses. [00:02:00] You know, you’ve committed a lot of your life, your spare time into it. When you apply for [00:02:05] the awards, it’s actually really nice as a reflection to see, oh my [00:02:10] God, look how much I’ve done. Because how often do we ever stop and think, these [00:02:15] are all the things I’ve done in the last ten years? You know, it’s very rare that we do that. But when [00:02:20] you apply for these awards, they essentially are asking you, what have you done with your career? You [00:02:25] know, what are you doing with your life? And so doing the awards is actually part of reflection [00:02:30] for me because it asks you these questions, which I normally wouldn’t ask myself. And I can actually say, oh wow, like you [00:02:35] did do that, or you did win that, or you did this amazing case. Um, and I guess [00:02:40] the second bit is it’s for yourself really the it’s that encouragement or [00:02:45] you know, that that you are doing the right thing. You know, it’s that motivation [00:02:50] that actually everything you’re working hard for is true. And that’s [00:02:55] what the award process or winning the award essentially defines for me. So all those [00:03:00] hours you put in, that’s that’s paid off. That’s why you’ve won this award basically. [00:03:05] Um, so yeah, I haven’t I’ve won a few awards and I took a year off last year and I probably [00:03:10] will apply for a few more while I’m still young.

Payman Langroudi: Um, well, you can still be the young [00:03:15] dentist.

Kiran Shankla: Still be the young dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Do you understand the problem people have with awards, though?

Kiran Shankla: I don’t, [00:03:20] I guess.

Payman Langroudi: You know about it.

Kiran Shankla: I don’t know, no. Go on, tell me.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t know. [00:03:25]

Kiran Shankla: No.

Payman Langroudi: You think it’s all positive?

Kiran Shankla: I think if you. If you [00:03:30] win the award, it’s positive. But I think it also [00:03:35] if you’re on the outside and you’re seeing that, then you probably think that’s what I [00:03:40] need, which I would disagree with, because at the end of the day, [00:03:45] it’s great I have all these awards, but if I can’t do the dentistry, the awards [00:03:50] mean absolutely nothing, you know? So when my patients come in to see me. [00:03:55] So I’ve been at my established practice for three years, and it’s been a really [00:04:00] tough gig because I came into that practice with no patients. They had told me [00:04:05] the previous dentist, unfortunately, he had taken a lot of the patients with him, so they were very honest with me. [00:04:10] But it was a practice which I believed aligned with the way I wanted to [00:04:15] do dentistry. And I thought, you know, it’s a great opportunity. Let’s go in there. So every [00:04:20] time a patient comes in, it’s a new patient and they will look on the wall and be like, oh, that’s you [00:04:25] know, great to see you’ve got some awards. Sometimes they don’t even pick up on it. But really what matters is [00:04:30] how that our appointment goes. And that means more than any award on the wall.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:04:35] didn’t mention the marketing benefits of the award?

Kiran Shankla: Yes, definitely. But equally, as an associate, [00:04:40] you know, it’s kind of you get one Instagram post from the practice and then that’s it. It’s not really [00:04:45] marketed constantly. Continually like this is the best dentist in the southeast. [00:04:50] Whereas maybe if I was a principal of my own practice, I would market it a little bit more. It [00:04:55] definitely, you know, I’ve had a couple of articles written in the local paper, so it’s definitely heightened my profile. [00:05:00] And because I’ve lived in reading for 20 years and I hope to live there for another foreseeable [00:05:05] future. It’s definitely helped with recognition. But I guess the problem maybe you’re [00:05:10] alluding to is for dentists who are not winning awards. They think maybe that’s what they need [00:05:15] to become. That’s what.

Payman Langroudi: That’s one. That’s one. Um, but the dentist is not even [00:05:20] entering awards.

Kiran Shankla: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, it’s that idea that [00:05:25] you get the badge. Best young dentist. Yeah. Southeast. Because [00:05:30] you’re tactically good actually. Entering awards. Yeah. And there’s another dentist [00:05:35] who’s a better dentist than you who hasn’t entered the awards. So that dentist now isn’t [00:05:40] the best young dentist in South East.

Kiran Shankla: That’s true. But what’s stopping them applying?

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:05:45] the awards isn’t what they’re in it for? You know.

Kiran Shankla: Then I guess then if they’re not in it for [00:05:50] the award, then it shouldn’t really affect them too much because obviously they’re confident in what they’re doing and it’s [00:05:55] working. They’re busy. Um, so yeah, I think there’s like two ways to look at it really. [00:06:00]

Payman Langroudi: But the way I’ve got no problem with.

Kiran Shankla: It. Yeah. No, no, but.

Payman Langroudi: Lots of people do. Yeah. And I just wanted to clarify. Do you [00:06:05] understand what the problem people have with it?

Kiran Shankla: Have with it? Yeah. And I guess if you’re opening a new practice [00:06:10] or if you’re a new associate in a practice, it just helps build that confidence. So same [00:06:15] again. If I’m applying for a new, say, I’m applying for a job. If I’ve got that award, [00:06:20] of course, compared.

Payman Langroudi: To benefits, right. To be called the.

Kiran Shankla: Best of anything.

Payman Langroudi: The best of anything is a marketing benefit, [00:06:25] right?

Kiran Shankla: And then even just for job applications, you know, if I’m applying for a job and you’re applying for one and [00:06:30] I’ve got a couple more awards, maybe the principal will be like, oh, maybe this dentist might be a little bit better than this one. [00:06:35] You know, they are they’re going to be helping us with the marketing side. Or they may have a certain number of [00:06:40] followers or they’re just a very good dentist. So I think it does help as an associate as well to have that with you. [00:06:45]

Payman Langroudi: Do you worry that you’re not going to win? Because that for me, like we haven’t entered any [00:06:50] awards ever with the company enlightened. Ever. Yeah. And really, the reason is I don’t want to not win if [00:06:55] I’m if I’m brutally honest about it. So that must affect you. I mean, [00:07:00] doesn’t that bother you? That really bothers the hell out of me.

Kiran Shankla: So the first time I actually applied [00:07:05] for the dentistry awards, I never even made it as a finalist. So my application just got [00:07:10] obviously wasn’t good enough. It got rejected. But I didn’t think of that as a really negative thing. I [00:07:15] just thought, okay, yeah, I was just there’s obviously a process to it and the information [00:07:20] I gave wasn’t good enough. So that’s something I need to reflect on. And next year when I apply, maybe I’ll [00:07:25] try a little bit harder or do a little bit more research in what they’re looking for. Um, and that’s why I did essentially [00:07:30] I redid my whole application and then submitted it, and that’s what allowed me to win. So yeah, I got rejected. [00:07:35]

Payman Langroudi: Now that you’ve won so many, what are top tips for winning?

Kiran Shankla: Okay. So there’s [00:07:40] lots of each dental award will have their own criteria of questions. So you have to answer [00:07:45] each question.

Payman Langroudi: So you didn’t do that the first time?

Kiran Shankla: I guess you didn’t do that the first time. No. And, [00:07:50] uh, the second thing is you need to have a, like, just basically like a single application. [00:07:55] So maybe a PDF with everything in it as opposed to uploading ten different documents. [00:08:00] So basically, just make life easy for whoever’s judging so they can scroll through it okay. [00:08:05] So you’ve written the question, you know, what extracurricular activities do I do. And then [00:08:10] you’ve basically demonstrated with evidence and essentially just follow it step by step protocol. Um, [00:08:15] you need to be a little bit different, I guess. You know, everyone has similar, you [00:08:20] know, cases, similar sort of career path. So I think they really do look at charities that you [00:08:25] work with or extracurricular activities or anything outside of dentistry. Um, but also [00:08:30] I think just don’t make it everything. If you win, fantastic. If you’re a finalist, that’s great. But [00:08:35] even if you don’t like I didn’t even get through to the first round. Just take it on. Take it on your, you know, on [00:08:40] your chin.

Payman Langroudi: To answer the question.

Kiran Shankla: Yep.

Payman Langroudi: Put it all in one place so it’s easy to look at.

Kiran Shankla: Exactly. [00:08:45]

Payman Langroudi: Be different. Be different. So your USP and like your point of difference, if the guy’s got [00:08:50] 100 different entries, what would make yours stand out?

Kiran Shankla: So I guess my USP is I’ve lived [00:08:55] abroad and worked as a dentist. I’ve done.

Payman Langroudi: Australia.

Kiran Shankla: In Australia. Yep, I’ve done a masters [00:09:00] at UCL Eastman. I do a lot of teaching. I help, I help give back. So [00:09:05] at the time when I had was doing the award and had a bit more free time, I was like going once [00:09:10] or twice a month to feed the homeless with my dad. So he was part of a charity, so I’d go with him. I’ve been [00:09:15] to schools, you know, I’ve done help with education, teaching younger children on the importance of oral [00:09:20] hygiene. I think just extra little bits like that, you know, extracurricular, anything you do in your spare [00:09:25] time. So, um, you know, any clubs you’re part of or anything like that, just there basically, [00:09:30] and having good review like testimonials from patients as well as staff, [00:09:35] principals, etc., etc..

Payman Langroudi: How long was this PDF?

Kiran Shankla: From memory, I think [00:09:40] it was, you know, about 4050 pages or 50 pages. But there’s a lot of cases, [00:09:45] you know, some of them are just cases that you put in there. So there’s a lot of effort that goes behind it.

Payman Langroudi: Hell yeah. [00:09:50]

Kiran Shankla: So that’s what I mean. You gotta if you really want to win the award, you have to put a lot of effort in.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:09:55] cases. So the they want you to demonstrate how good a dentist you are as well as [00:10:00] all the extracurriculars.

Kiran Shankla: Exactly. Yeah. So it’s not just based on, you know, you’ve got 20,000 Instagram [00:10:05] followers. Great. You’re going to get it. Um, I hope the judges really do look at the cases. And so [00:10:10] when I applied, I did a variety of cases because I’m a general dentist. You know, I don’t just [00:10:15] focus on one area. So you had a little bit of under a little bit of your composites, anterior [00:10:20] posterior aligners, just a bit of everything so that they can see that you’re a general dentist. [00:10:25] But equally, I know some dentists have one who’ve just only done anterior cases, you know, so it [00:10:30] really depends on what they’re looking for. And if you’ve got two people who are, you know, level, [00:10:35] they’ll be like, okay, maybe this one’s doing lots of really good general dentistry, whereas this one’s only [00:10:40] focusing on anterior. So maybe we’ll give it to this dentist here.

Payman Langroudi: And did you go show mum?

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. [00:10:45]

Payman Langroudi: I think that might be the best bit of it.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. I mean, when I was living at home, it used to [00:10:50] be the plaque was on the mantelpiece. On the fireplace. At one point, my dad [00:10:55] said, I don’t know what to say anymore because you keep coming home with these awards and publications, but they [00:11:00] are, like, really proud. I think being from the LBC, typical Indian family [00:11:05] and especially that generation where they’ve immigrated to the UK, I think they [00:11:10] find saying what a great job you’ve done really difficult. You know there’s show love, [00:11:15] but maybe they don’t express the love. So even yeah, my dad I know my parents are very, very proud [00:11:20] of me. Um, but I also I think they’re just thinking, is this normal? Maybe this is what all dentists [00:11:25] do. I have no idea. So it’s. Yeah. It’s a.

Payman Langroudi: So do you remember [00:11:30] a time where you weren’t super ambitious?

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. [00:11:35]

Payman Langroudi: Were you always super ambitious? So you’re definitely super ambitious. [00:11:40]

Kiran Shankla: Super ambitious.

Payman Langroudi: No, I would say you are. Would you characterise yourself [00:11:45] like that?

Kiran Shankla: Yeah, I would say I’m definitely ambitious. Um. I’m middle child, so I think that has [00:11:50] something to do with it. Um, when I was younger. So we used to live in West London [00:11:55] and they used to be a park opposite our house.

Payman Langroudi: What about.

Kiran Shankla: In Hounslow? [00:12:00] Okay, so, uh, dad used to work near the airport, so he was doing, like, shift work. Uh, [00:12:05] mum used to be at home, and I remember the best bit of my childhood was waiting for my dad [00:12:10] to come home from work, and we would go to the park pretty much every day, unless it was winter, and [00:12:15] we’d always do some sort of sports, you know. So I was very competitive in the sporting element, [00:12:20] but I wasn’t very studious. Now my sister, who’s 14 months older than me, was very [00:12:25] studious. You know, she wasn’t she didn’t like sports at all. Yeah, but she was very, very [00:12:30] smart. And I remember when we were applying to secondary school and she was going [00:12:35] to Slough, you know, she was commuting every day, like getting up at 6 a.m., 11 year [00:12:40] old jumping on the coach going to Slough. And I didn’t want to do that. All I wanted to do was play sports. [00:12:45] And I remember my parents were like, no, you’re going to do the grammar school exam. And I just said to them, I just really [00:12:50] don’t want to do it. I just want to walk to school. I want to walk home and I want to play all my sports. So I remember doing [00:12:55] the grammar school exam and I came home and was like, how did it go? And I said, I failed [00:13:00] it. And they said, what do you mean? I said, I told you, I don’t want to go. You know, I’m not going to be happy there.

Kiran Shankla: And then the [00:13:05] results came out. I didn’t get in and I got to go to the local school down the road. And it was great because I was thriving, [00:13:10] you know, I was in I was doing well academically. I was in the top sets and I was doing loads of sports. [00:13:15] And then what happened was when I was in year eight, my parents decided to relocate to reading. That’s [00:13:20] where my grandparents lived, and a lot of my mum’s siblings, so we relocated. [00:13:25] But the sports element kind of just stopped at that point because I guess we just didn’t have that same [00:13:30] sense of community. I didn’t know anyone in the local area. The schooling was completely different. [00:13:35] Um, and when I joined the new school, they’d put me in sort of middle sets for everything, even though I was in top [00:13:40] set. So I had to prove to my teachers, actually, you know, I do deserve to be in the top set. So that was [00:13:45] a little bit of hard work, but it was okay. They saw after a few lessons, actually. Yep. Let’s just put [00:13:50] you in the higher sets just there and then, you know, studying was never a big part of [00:13:55] who I was even falling into dentistry. It just happened. It wasn’t an ambition. And even [00:14:00] even up until this day, my dad still says to me, I can’t believe you’re a dentist. We always thought you were going [00:14:05] to go into it or business studies or something.

Payman Langroudi: And what did your sister end up doing?

Kiran Shankla: Yeah, she’s [00:14:10] a doctor. So, yeah, she’s an anaesthetist. Okay. So even when we moved to Redding, she went to a grammar [00:14:15] school and I went to a walkable state school because that’s at that point, my parents were like, okay, actually, you [00:14:20] just want a nice, easy life. Just go to the local school. Um, and then it wasn’t until year [00:14:25] ten where we did our mock exams, you know, GCSE mocks. And I remember [00:14:30] sitting them and I ended up getting C’s and D’s and everything. And then I thought, oh, I’m not [00:14:35] really as smart as I think. And I think that’s when I thought, actually, you need to work hard. [00:14:40] If you want to do well, you’ve got to work hard. And my parents were very good. They never compared us. [00:14:45] But because my sister was so bright, I always felt like I wanted to be like that. [00:14:50] And she was fortunate. Like she could wake up the day before the exam, study for ten [00:14:55] minutes, and she’d get like, 99%. And then there’s me, like, revising for like six months [00:15:00] in a row and then be, like, just passing. So but I knew that, you know, I knew that wasn’t my strength. [00:15:05] But equally, I think I realised at that point, if you just do parrot [00:15:10] fashion learning, you can actually do really well in these exams.

Kiran Shankla: So it was probably like year ten and year 11 where [00:15:15] I thought I’d just study, just study, just study. And then GCSE results came [00:15:20] out. I did a lot better than I was expecting. You know, I was predicted all B’s got all A’s. And [00:15:25] we have a family friend who’s a dentist who called me just to see how I’d done. She said, oh, hey, Karen, [00:15:30] how you done? And I said, oh, I actually got all A’s. And she was the one who said, have you ever thought [00:15:35] about dentistry as a career? And I thought, no, I just never, ever thought of medicine. Never. Always [00:15:40] wanted to go down it, you know, business. And she was like, it’s great for women. You can work part time [00:15:45] when you have a family, you know, you can work certain hours, you can travel. And then [00:15:50] I was like, that sounds great. So then I went to school and I said, I want to change all my [00:15:55] A-levels. So I was doing all it maths business, changed them all to sciences.

Payman Langroudi: Something [00:16:00] clicked.

Kiran Shankla: Something clicked. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t reckon your parents put her up to that phone call.

Kiran Shankla: No. [00:16:05] Well, I remember even my dad was like when you said you wanted a dentist. Dentistry. Me and your mum were like, oh, really? [00:16:10] Like dentistry. You’ve never mentioned it, but they’re like, we’ll support you. You know, whatever you want to do, we’ll support you. [00:16:15] And then same again. Did the a s unfortunately got all B’s in my [00:16:20] ass and then was applying for dentistry. And I remember the teachers had to predict this is [00:16:25] when you, you could split the exams across two years. So the teachers predicted your A-level results and [00:16:30] they all predicted me Bees. And then I remember I had to like I still remember. I had to knock [00:16:35] on the staff room door and talk to my biology and chemistry teachers and be like, please predict me as if you don’t predict [00:16:40] me, as I will not get any interviews. And they were like, well, not sure if you’re going to do it. And I said, I’m going [00:16:45] to reset everything in A2. I’m going to work really, really hard. And luckily they [00:16:50] changed the grades for me, which was really nice of them. Um, and then I got one interview, which was from Birmingham [00:16:55] University.

Payman Langroudi: And you know, to do that.

Kiran Shankla: I think at that point I was probably [00:17:00] just so like, not maybe not desperate, but I think I [00:17:05] was so focussed at that point that that is really what I wanted.

Payman Langroudi: You know, just as a trait. [00:17:10] Some people will just accept things like that. Imagine they’re not changeable and [00:17:15] then other people will knock on doors. And were you always that cat? [00:17:20]

Kiran Shankla: I think I was always.

Payman Langroudi: Just wanted it.

Kiran Shankla: Just wanted it. I think I was always I [00:17:25] got told when I was younger I was had quite a loud mouth, you know, and uh, And one [00:17:30] of my best friends today, she. We met on the second week of dental school. She said the first time I [00:17:35] met you, I was so scared of you. And it wasn’t because you were rude. It was just because you were confident, you [00:17:40] know? She was like you were confident. You knew what you wanted. Um, and I think at that point, I knew I really [00:17:45] knew I wanted to do dentistry. And so I was like, I have to do whatever I can. So [00:17:50] they changed the grades in A2. So I reset all my ass at Christmas time. So [00:17:55] just focussed, you know, every single evening I was in my room studying, studying, studying. So it wasn’t easy. [00:18:00] You know, people see this image on social media and they think, oh God, it must be so easy. But it was tough. [00:18:05]

Payman Langroudi: Especially getting just one interview, right? Like everything rested on that one.

Kiran Shankla: That one interview. And [00:18:10] what really helped in that interview was I was still playing football at that time, so I was playing for South Reading, [00:18:15] and I think that’s what helped because in the interview they said, look, you haven’t got the grades at ASE, [00:18:20] how are you going to get the grades? And and the big question was, how are you going to [00:18:25] study as well as doing your football? Because obviously, you know, it seems like you’re very good at football. And [00:18:30] I was honest, I said if I had to pick, I’d pick dentistry. And essentially that’s what happened. Started [00:18:35] university, joined up for the football teams. But after a year or so I was like, I can’t, I can’t balance [00:18:40] it. So that sports just got pushed to one side and the focus was dentistry. And even then it was [00:18:45] the same like started off first year. You’re a fresher, you know you’re free, enjoyed it, had a really [00:18:50] good time. But we did a set of exams and I passed them. But I just scraped a pass and [00:18:55] I think same again. I was like.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not naturally a wake up call, a wake up call. [00:19:00]

Kiran Shankla: I was like, you know, Kieran, you’re not naturally smart. You need to get on top of it. And I had a great time at university, [00:19:05] you know, spent loads of weekends there, went on, you know, great trips and stuff. But I [00:19:10] always knew I had to study hard. And I’m a firm believer if you want something and you put enough effort into it, it will [00:19:15] happen.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you work at Sameer’s practice and he’s a firm believer in [00:19:20] treating your career like a sport.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Does that resonate with you? Like, is that is [00:19:25] that because you were so strong on sports, did you look at dentistry as if like, you know, training [00:19:30] for sports?

Kiran Shankla: I think there’s elements of being in a sports [00:19:35] team which you can bring into dentistry. So like that’s like being a team player. You know, working [00:19:40] to everyone.

Payman Langroudi: Motivating.

Kiran Shankla: Motivating and weakness. I wouldn’t necessarily see say I [00:19:45] see it as a sport, especially because as I started university, the sporting element just [00:19:50] completely disappeared in me. But I think that doing sports is what’s helped me give the confidence, [00:19:55] you know, and the ability to talk to so many different people and work as a team, [00:20:00] which may be if, you know, you said to me, how do I have the, you know, encouragement to go knock on that [00:20:05] door? Yeah, maybe it was just being as part of a team, you know, whereas if you were more timid and [00:20:10] you haven’t been exposed to that, you probably would just accept it and be like, okay, that’s you know what I’ve been told to [00:20:15] do? Um, did.

Payman Langroudi: You find you were stronger on the clinical bit?

Kiran Shankla: No.

Payman Langroudi: No, [00:20:20] neither. Me neither. I hated both bits.

Kiran Shankla: Honestly, [00:20:25] they like when I towards the end of university, all I wanted was to pass. You know, I [00:20:30] don’t think I shone in any area. If you go back and ask my.

Payman Langroudi: Middle of the class.

Kiran Shankla: Always middle. [00:20:35] Yeah, never academically amazing, just middle and everything. I had a great time, [00:20:40] you know, I enjoyed it, but I was always just a if you asked any of my lecturers then or [00:20:45] professors. Do you remember Kieran as a student? I’m sure there’s no real shine moment. [00:20:50] You know, I think I wouldn’t say they were like, yeah, she’s going to be great. Um, because I’ll be [00:20:55] honest, at the time my clinical skills were not fantastic. And then I graduated and I did my [00:21:00] training and I was lucky I got a place in Slough and same again. It was great. It was [00:21:05] good exposure, you know, you had so many different people. My trainer was fantastic. [00:21:10]

Payman Langroudi: So before we do that, Birmingham, did you did you get taught by Lewis?

Kiran Shankla: No. [00:21:15] So same again that he did a special study.

Payman Langroudi: Did you do.

Kiran Shankla: That? I didn’t do that because I wasn’t [00:21:20] like, you.

Payman Langroudi: Weren’t good enough.

Kiran Shankla: I wasn’t good enough. I was just like, I’ll do that. So [00:21:25] you could choose. And I decided to do endo because I was like, I was like, that’s what we’ll get most of in practice. Yeah. [00:21:30] And I guess at that time I just didn’t believe I could do that level of dentistry. And in hindsight, [00:21:35] I wish, you know, I wish I’d got taught of him. Maybe I would have gone down this career path sooner rather than later, [00:21:40] but I guess I just didn’t at that time.

Payman Langroudi: So where was that?

Kiran Shankla: So that was in Slough. [00:21:45] So I was in the Berkshire scheme. Um, and that was great. Same again. You had to interview for [00:21:50] your placement the first year or second year. It had come out and I knew clinically I wasn’t [00:21:55] fantastic. Academically I wasn’t fantastic. But if you put me in a room with someone, I could [00:22:00] probably be good at the communication. So I was very fortunate. I got my first choice area and I ended [00:22:05] up in a practice in Slough. It’s a very high needs, but it was great, really supportive training. [00:22:10]

Payman Langroudi: I knew the population.

Kiran Shankla: Knew the population.

Payman Langroudi: People, people underestimate that. [00:22:15] Yeah, because I think I did my TT in Kent and they’re wonderful [00:22:20] people. Kent Cat people? Yeah, but I didn’t know them. Yeah, like I wasn’t native to that [00:22:25] population. Yeah. And there’s a there’s a nuance in just like, literally when you pick [00:22:30] up the patient’s record and you see where they live, you know where that is. Little, [00:22:35] little turns of phrase and so on. People underestimate that, you know.

Kiran Shankla: Definitely. [00:22:40] And even now where so one practice is three miles, the other practices [00:22:45] is five miles down the road. Right. I can relate to a lot of these patients because.

Payman Langroudi: Schools, people go.

Kiran Shankla: To. [00:22:50]

Payman Langroudi: All of that.

Kiran Shankla: Some people some children go to same school I did. So it’s how fantastic is that to say [00:22:55] I’m your dentist? And we went both to the local comprehensive school. Yeah. And for them they can really [00:23:00] relate. Or we all live in the same area or something like that. So it’s so relatable. Mhm. Um, [00:23:05] and so with Slough I always knew it was going to be a high needs area, but it was a lot of exposure. Had [00:23:10] a fantastic.

Payman Langroudi: Did a bunch of end though.

Kiran Shankla: A bunch of endo a bunch of dentures basically. But [00:23:15] I think even then maybe it was I don’t overthink [00:23:20] things. I forget that time in my life. I didn’t used to overthink things. I was just happy go lucky. And [00:23:25] social media wasn’t a big thing at that time. You know, we’re going back 11 years now, so [00:23:30] maybe I didn’t realise how important that year was, but I had a great time. You know, I would go to work, have [00:23:35] a great time.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a brilliant year.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah, it’s a brilliant year. You know, made some fantastic friends. We all got to go to [00:23:40] like, Chicago together, you know, had a really great memories. But I think now if [00:23:45] you’re graduating as a dentist, that year might be completely different because maybe you’re thinking, you [00:23:50] know, GDC, can I do this social media, etc., etc. and maybe it was there at that time, [00:23:55] but it was just naive to it. And then after that year, I got a second [00:24:00] training job because I thought, actually, I want to just get home on my skills a little bit more. And [00:24:05] it was a pilot scheme. So essentially you do another year in practice.

Payman Langroudi: Like DCT [00:24:10] or.

Kiran Shankla: Like DCT one basically. Um, but the benefit was you’ve got two trainers, so one was your [00:24:15] general dentist trainer. And I ended up with an Endodontist as my second trainer. So same again. Root [00:24:20] canal. So. And that practice was 140 mile round [00:24:25] trip from my house in Redding. So I was waking up, commuting back and forth, back and forth, [00:24:30] and it was on a training salary. So I was like, you know, I don’t want to spend loads. Males will stay at home and [00:24:35] same again. I ended up in a really nice practice owned by two ladies who really looked after me. Uh, [00:24:40] I was very fortunate with the trainers, very fortunate with the patients, and I upskilled again there. [00:24:45]

Payman Langroudi: But do you recognise the sort of duck out of water feeling [00:24:50] that you get in that year after? Because [00:24:55] I found it. I don’t know about you, but yeah, you’re right. Insomuch as you’re learning and you’re [00:25:00] delivering like real dentistry and, you know, like almost the training kicks in properly [00:25:05] at that point, but you’re no longer definitely no longer a student. No, [00:25:10] um, you’re not with that group every Friday or whatever it is you’re earning, [00:25:15] which is nice, but I found a real feeling of isolation and a [00:25:20] feeling of was this all it was for? Yes. Did you feel that too?

Kiran Shankla: I think because [00:25:25] I ended up in a DCT position.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you still had a bit.

Kiran Shankla: You still you still had that guidance. [00:25:30] You still had that mentorship. So I was very fortunate in that sense.

Payman Langroudi: Did you get [00:25:35] very good at Endo then? You must have.

Kiran Shankla: I got good at Endo but I realised I didn’t enjoy Endo. Oh really? Yeah. [00:25:40] And my trainer at the time, she had graduated from the Eastman and [00:25:45] I think at the Eastman they just focussed on hand filing. Oh. So I was thinking, when are we using the rotary. [00:25:50]

Payman Langroudi: Like old school?

Kiran Shankla: Oh, but we never got to the rotary. It was all hand filing. And, you know, I guess there’s an elegance [00:25:55] in that as well. Um, but I realised at the end of it, God, it’s a lot of work, you [00:26:00] know, that you’re doing with your hand files and, um, also something [00:26:05] which I really wanted to do actually, from sort of fifth year was I wanted to move to Australia. [00:26:10] So in my head, I always knew I really wanted to go soon after graduation, [00:26:15] so I applied in DCT one year and I was by yourself. By [00:26:20] myself? Yeah yeah yeah yeah. And this is essentially why I.

Payman Langroudi: Like the travel bug. [00:26:25]

Kiran Shankla: The travel bug.

Payman Langroudi: So is that what it was?

Kiran Shankla: It was, it was like I love travelling. You know, when I [00:26:30] was younger, my dad’s family all emigrated to America. So he’s the only one that came [00:26:35] here. So growing up, we would always go to America every summer. My grandma used to live there. Loads of uncles and aunts. [00:26:40] And then unfortunately, when my grandma passed away, my dad said, okay, let’s just go to different places. So [00:26:45] we’d only do one holiday a year, but we’d always go to different places. You know, we go to like Egypt [00:26:50] or Thailand, you know, America, we did India. So I think I always loved travelling. [00:26:55] And in my eyes I always thought Australia. It’s just like, you know, the grass is greener. [00:27:00] And I always knew I wanted to go. So after DCT one, I had managed to get a position, [00:27:05] I offered a job and I went out there. But the problem.

Payman Langroudi: Did you get the job from here?

Kiran Shankla: I got [00:27:10] the job from here. So I interviewed here and essentially it’s the same like the UK. There’s a corporate structure [00:27:15] for a lot of practices out in Australia. Yeah. So the company said, right, we’ll sponsor you Kieran, [00:27:20] but you need to work with us for x number of years. And of course you’re not [00:27:25] going to be going to Brisbane or Melbourne or Sydney. You’re going to be going. Exactly. So I got [00:27:30] put in a I guess it’s a small town called Rockhampton, which is a 8 hour or 8 hours drive [00:27:35] north of Brisbane.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. So Brisbane was the closest city as an eight hour drive away.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness. [00:27:40]

Kiran Shankla: And it was it was okay. Like you know there was a group of ex-pat British dentists who were [00:27:45] out there who I made friends with. It was opened up the doors to private dentistry because everything was private. [00:27:50] Um, it was a different way of life, but I still had to work fairly hard because I was in a corporate [00:27:55] job. You know, there’s still I was still working 5 to 6 days a week. It was still long hours.

Payman Langroudi: Give me a sense [00:28:00] of the town. I mean, was it, as you know, that that feeling you have about Australia, beach and barbecue [00:28:05] and beer. And so was that kind of or. No.

Kiran Shankla: No. So unfortunately, this town was a little bit inland [00:28:10] as well. So there was no beach. It was a half an hour drive away. I still remember once [00:28:15] I said to my housemate who was Australian, I said, let’s go out and get something to eat. It was 8 p.m.. I [00:28:20] remember us driving around town. Everything was closed and I was like, what’s going on? He’s like, that’s just [00:28:25] how it is here. And I think at that point I was realised that maybe this is [00:28:30] not the life for me.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not the Australia you were the Australian dream.

Kiran Shankla: And I probably [00:28:35] could have had the Australian dream, but I would have had to commit maybe 3 or 4 years in this rural town [00:28:40] to then get my permanent residency to allow me to move freely. And I think the other thing [00:28:45] which my or my sister, who I talked to quite often, she she knocked it on the head, you [00:28:50] know, I got very lonely out there. And she said to me, you used to commute 140 miles a [00:28:55] day to work on a training salary. You literally drive five minutes to work, but [00:29:00] you’re getting lonely and depressed out here. So she was like, just come home. And for me, that was a big thing [00:29:05] because I said, if I go, I’m not coming back. And that’s what I said. I said, I’m going to go indefinitely. [00:29:10]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Kiran Shankla: Yeah, that’s how much I wanted it. But actually, what I realised was it wasn’t [00:29:15] the dream I’d anticipated.

Payman Langroudi: Easy thing to say.

Kiran Shankla: I was.

Payman Langroudi: Going one one.

Kiran Shankla: Way ticket. [00:29:20]

Payman Langroudi: To Australia.

Kiran Shankla: And my parents were very supportive. And they came to visit me and they loved [00:29:25] it. They came for three weeks. We did like the whole Melbourne, Sydney, up to Cairns. We did all the snorkelling [00:29:30] and everything. Um, and they, they were even like, you know, stay out there. It looks like you’re having a great time.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:29:35] I’ve never been to Australia outside of this little town. Yeah. [00:29:40] Was it did it live up to expectations?

Kiran Shankla: Yes. So I think if you’re going to go [00:29:45] aim for one of the big cities.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kiran Shankla: And I think if you go to the big cities, you [00:29:50] will have a fantastic time. You know, the weather’s good. You can have a good way of life. [00:29:55] The food is good. You know, people are generally quite relaxed and laid back. Friendly, friendly. [00:30:00] Yeah. Definitely friendly. Um, and if I was to go back, I would probably hit one of the bigger towns. [00:30:05] But equally, there’s, you know, negatives about it as well. You’re quite isolated. It’s so far [00:30:10] from everything. If you’ve got no family there. If you go by yourself, you really need to [00:30:15] know that. You know it’s not. I know people just say it’s a plane ride, but it’s not just a plane ride. It’s [00:30:20] a long plane ride. Um, and especially after Covid, I think when they closed their borders, [00:30:25] I think that’s when I really.

Payman Langroudi: Were there during that.

Kiran Shankla: No, no, no, I’d come back before then, but I [00:30:30] think at that point that’s when I was like, if I was still out there, I would be struggling so much not [00:30:35] knowing I couldn’t fly home to see my parents for a whole year or however long they had a lockdown. So I think [00:30:40] there’s pros and cons.

Payman Langroudi: So you came back.

Kiran Shankla: Came back. Um, and luckily I interviewed for a job [00:30:45] when I was out there and it was in a practice just outside of reading, and they were looking for a maternity cover. [00:30:50] And he interviewed me and he said, okay, great. You seem like a good fit. So came back, moved back in with my parents. [00:30:55] And at that point I realised that my dentistry wasn’t as good as I wanted it to [00:31:00] be. Uh, so I just and signed up to a masters, basically. And my principal at this practice in [00:31:05] reading, He had done a master’s from Eastman, so he kind.

Payman Langroudi: Of part time.

Kiran Shankla: Part time. Yeah. So he kind of [00:31:10] encouraged it. He said, you know, it’s great to be a general dentist, but find your niche, you know, find what you’re really [00:31:15] good at. And I just thought, I really just want to be a good general dentist. So I started this.

Payman Langroudi: So was that MSC restorative. [00:31:20]

Kiran Shankla: Restorative. Exactly. And same again now.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me tell me about that course. So firstly [00:31:25] what’s the commitment. How much of it do you have to turn up for.

Kiran Shankla: For. So [00:31:30] it was four years when I was there. Now it’s three years. So for the first year you have to go [00:31:35] in once a week. And the second year I believe now, because it’s changed from four years to three years. [00:31:40] It’s once a week and the third year is your dissertation. So that that’s a lot more flexible, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Lots of homework. [00:31:45]

Kiran Shankla: Lots of homework. So I remember, you know, there’s times now where weekends, [00:31:50] which I’d missed out on because I was studying or revising or you’re doing case presentations, [00:31:55] you know, pretty much every week at home in the evening, I was doing something [00:32:00] related to it. So from that point onwards, I just got used to doing [00:32:05] like dentistry outside of working hours. And I was fortunate because I was living at home, you know, my parents really looked [00:32:10] after me, did all the cooking, cleaning. There was no like financial strains, but I think it just became [00:32:15] the norm, you know, to do some dentistry outside of dentistry hours. But there was a lot of commitment [00:32:20] involved and, you know, you sacrifice a lot. It was holidays, which I missed out on.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the course. Did they sort [00:32:25] of start from the beginning again?

Kiran Shankla: Essentially, yeah. You start from the scratch. So they teach you the basics. [00:32:30] You know how to do a class two restoration, how to do a primary root canal, how [00:32:35] to do a crown prep. So it was really good to just home on the skills which you’re taught at university, [00:32:40] but you’re probably in a different mindset for me anyway. I was in a different mindset at that point. I was like, right, [00:32:45] I’m willing to learn. And that just gave me the confidence to start doing good general dentistry. And [00:32:50] so the second year is the diploma. So you go a little bit more in depth. So you learn about tooth wear. So [00:32:55] you’ve got a whole year dedicated to that. And the third year was the dissertation. So a lot of people they’ll [00:33:00] just drop out after the second year because they’re like, I’ve got the clinical skills, I don’t need the dissertation. [00:33:05] Whereas for me, I always knew I wanted to teach at some point and I felt, [00:33:10] yeah, it always felt like I wanted to give something back or teach. And I thought if I had the masters, that would [00:33:15] just help back me. Um, but equally, I was like, If I’m going to spend a year doing a master’s, it has to be on a [00:33:20] topic which I can publish. So they, you know.

Payman Langroudi: What was your dissertation?

Kiran Shankla: So something really boring post [00:33:25] and cores, but it’s a topic that got published in the Journal of International Dentistry, [00:33:30] whereas some people did did it on apps, you know, and stuff like that, which was really exciting. But [00:33:35] obviously you couldn’t publish it.

Payman Langroudi: So what aspect of post and call?

Kiran Shankla: So just it was basically [00:33:40] an assessment on GDP to see when they would use post and chords. Would they use metal, would [00:33:45] they use fibre posts and cores? And basically what the tick boxes were for you to offer it to patients. [00:33:50] So luckily that was during Covid. So everything had gone online at this point. And [00:33:55] I remember before Covid you would have to go to some of these shows and you’d have to stand there [00:34:00] with your surveys and hand them out. But with Covid, they allowed us to do it all online. So I just posted it on [00:34:05] dentist for dentist saying, hey guys, can you help me out? Posted it to a lot of friends. Uh, any [00:34:10] dentist. And I got a lot of good feedback that way.

Payman Langroudi: So that was literally your research data came [00:34:15] from that came.

Kiran Shankla: From that.

Payman Langroudi: Basically. That was nice.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. So it was nice and easy. But I remember when the list of topics [00:34:20] came out, my principal helped me. He said, probably go for this one because there’s so much data out there already. [00:34:25] And um, you you’ll hopefully be able to do publish it. And we managed to publish it in the end. So [00:34:30] that was sort of my first real, I guess, publication or, or, you know, getting [00:34:35] my name out there. Um, and then that was in that finished in 2020 and. [00:34:40]

Payman Langroudi: The, the process itself. Yeah. I mean, when you’re writing a dissertation, [00:34:45] you can’t write anything. That is your opinion.

Kiran Shankla: No, no, it has to all be factual. [00:34:50]

Payman Langroudi: Everything has to be something from someone else’s work.

Kiran Shankla: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s a kind of a weird process [00:34:55] in itself, right? Because, um, I don’t know. How did you how did you do? They train [00:35:00] you well on that process?

Kiran Shankla: Yep. So you had a couple of days where they teach you how to look for journals. You know, the [00:35:05] search criteria, how to narrow it. Um, to be honest, I’ve forgotten it all completely.

[BOTH]: You know [00:35:10] what.

Payman Langroudi: I find weird about it? Let’s say my opinion. Let’s talk teeth whitening. My opinion [00:35:15] on teeth whitening is that the trade design needs to be a certain way. Yeah. Yeah. Then [00:35:20] I go look for studies that prove that to be the case in those particular [00:35:25] studies. But there’s 100 studies saying something else. Yes. So in a way, it is my opinion. [00:35:30] I just go and find the question, the answer to the question that I’m asking. Yeah. [00:35:35] It’s weird.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: No, it’s a funny thing. That’s I guess there’s no better way [00:35:40] that unfortunately.

Kiran Shankla: I think that’s when you’re with education. It all depends on the [00:35:45] published data. Whereas you could be doing something in your surgery and it’s working incredible. But [00:35:50] you’ve not written one story about it. And that’s where the downfall is. It’s not [00:35:55] on your opinion. It’s on what the evidence is out there. Yeah. Whereas on your day to day dentistry, if [00:36:00] you do something and it works, even though they might not be one case study in it, but you know it works, you’re just going to keep [00:36:05] doing it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. So that’s where. And I can see why a lot of people dropped out before the dissertation [00:36:10] year. Um, but for me, I kind of was like, well, you’ve gone so far. It’s just one more year. [00:36:15]

Payman Langroudi: And tell me about the two surface loss elements. Like, did they go as far as is it? Is it sort [00:36:20] of that, uh, Francesca Vigliotti.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. So essentially it [00:36:25] tells you how to do the examination, how to take the records, what treatment options to provide, [00:36:30] and essentially how to do it so that that was the foundation.

Payman Langroudi: Sort of full mouth rehab.

Kiran Shankla: Full [00:36:35] mouth rehab, basically.

Payman Langroudi: You’re very confident with that now?

Kiran Shankla: I would say I’m confident.

Kiran Shankla: But I don’t do many cases of it. So [00:36:40] it’s like, obviously the more you do of certain cases, the better you get. And unfortunately, only maybe do [00:36:45] maybe like 8 to 10 cases a year. Why? So in the practice [00:36:50] I’m in at the moment, I’ve been growing a list, and a lot of the patients that are coming in are not stable [00:36:55] to even have that sort of treatment. So it’s really been working really hard [00:37:00] at stabilising them. And now, you know, three years into it, as they get more stable then they can have [00:37:05] that treatment basically. So I’m not saying no.

Payman Langroudi: Do you find it challenging breaking it to a patient that they’re going [00:37:10] to have to spend 20 grand or whatever?

Kiran Shankla: Yeah, I think.

Kiran Shankla: It’s I so I always.

Payman Langroudi: Figured that [00:37:15] one out.

Kiran Shankla: No, no I haven’t figured that one out. So when I was in my practice, which [00:37:20] I came back from Australia, it was a big plan practice. So there was a lot of patients there who [00:37:25] had been there for many years, and they were willing to have the treatment. So I would get referrals in-house [00:37:30] for the treatment. Now, when I moved into my new practice, which is in the centre of reading, it’s a high needs [00:37:35] area. There’s so many people with decay who just haven’t seen a dentist, or who’ve just not had the [00:37:40] dentistry to keep their mouths going.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re in mixed practice?

Kiran Shankla: No, this is in middle. It’s [00:37:45] private. Yeah, it’s in middle of reading, but it’s a private practice. And, um, for me, the biggest [00:37:50] challenge has been communication. Because in my old practice, all the patients [00:37:55] were there. They were already there. They were already booking and see you in this new practice. I’ve had to work so [00:38:00] hard on my communication. Um, and it’s building trust.

Payman Langroudi: Building trust, building [00:38:05] trust.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. It’s been tough. Like, you know, it’s not it’s not underestimate.

Payman Langroudi: People underestimate that as well. Right. Because new [00:38:10] patient. Yeah. You’ve got the new patient. The type that wants to go ahead and make something beautiful. [00:38:15] You know that that type. But you’ve got the new patient who’s just a new patient. Yeah. [00:38:20] Just want to see a dentist. Yeah. And you can’t the first time you meet that patient, [00:38:25] say let’s go ahead and do X, Y and Z. It’s quite hard. You need to they need to trust [00:38:30] you as a simple, you know, someone they can talk to and all of that. It might take a [00:38:35] couple of years. Right.

Kiran Shankla: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: It might take a couple of years of of just just doing nothing. [00:38:40] Yeah. Before trust is there, before they can jump into it. Especially with with that [00:38:45] kind of work, that comprehensive work. It’s not obvious sometimes to patients that they need [00:38:50] something.

Kiran Shankla: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So do you use them? You know, I think the [00:38:55] trios has this thing where you can scan now and then scan three years down the line, and it shows the tooth [00:39:00] wear.

Kiran Shankla: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Use that.

Kiran Shankla: Tool. We used we’re very fortunate. So we get we have the scanners [00:39:05] which you can compare. We’ve got I on the x rays as well. Pearl. Pearl. Yep. [00:39:10] So that’s really good.

Payman Langroudi: Any good?

Kiran Shankla: I think it’s good. I think it’s good for educational for your patient. Because [00:39:15] normally if a patient has a hole, you show them a black and white X-ray.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t see.

Kiran Shankla: It. And they’re just thinking, [00:39:20] okay, if that’s what you say. Whereas with this you just tick on the pink colour. I’m like, can you see all the holes? And [00:39:25] they’re like, yes. So I think for educational to show them, look how close it is to your nerve. The risk [00:39:30] of root canal patients get it as soon as you show them that they’re like I get it, I get what you’re talking about. So [00:39:35] I think that has really helped with the communication side. So as a new patient, when you’re coming to see me, you’re getting all of that given [00:39:40] to you.

Payman Langroudi: Photography.

Kiran Shankla: Photography scans, x rays with [00:39:45] intraoral cameras, extra oral cameras, everything basically. And then they get to see the work that I do as well. [00:39:50]

Payman Langroudi: Will you show them other cases?

Kiran Shankla: I showed them cases. I always say, look, the dentistry I do is a little [00:39:55] bit different to everyone else. Like, we always work under rubber dam. We try and build your fillings to look as [00:40:00] realistic as possible. And I always say to them, look, I’m a slut. I always joke them. I say, look, I’m a slower dentist [00:40:05] than your average dentist, but I want to make sure my composites last, you know, 8 to 10 years and [00:40:10] they get that. And then after the first session when they’ve had it, you know, sometimes a patient came in on Tuesday, [00:40:15] needed two fillings, booked him in for an hour and 45 minutes. And it was tough fillings. [00:40:20] But at the end of it he was anterior posterior. Um, so like he had just [00:40:25] seen his dentist in January, he’d come to see me. And then I said to him, look, there’s actually four teeth which [00:40:30] are heavily broken down that need treatment, and you’ve got another four amalgams which are starting to like, [00:40:35] corrode. And the first point is really important because I always say to the patient, it depends [00:40:40] how you want to treat it. Obviously I’m going to tell you everything. It’s your choice. Do you want to be a bit more [00:40:45] proactive, or do you want to be a bit more reactive? Because I was like a lot of these, you know, these are red. We have to [00:40:50] do them. And the amber ones, they’re actually next door to the teeth that are red. So if you want to be proactive, we [00:40:55] can do them at the same time. If you want to be reactive, that’s totally fine as well.

Kiran Shankla: We’ll do them in the future. And some people [00:41:00] are like, I get it, Kieran, I see what you’re doing. Let’s just get everything done. And some people are a little bit more like, actually, [00:41:05] you know what? Can we just do? The ones that we need. And the way that I teach them is that there’s three sort [00:41:10] of scenarios, three areas in your mouth that I need to work on. So the first is health. So [00:41:15] we’re going to work on stabilising your cavities, stabilising your gums basically until [00:41:20] those are stable. We can’t then move on to the next step which is function. So function is all [00:41:25] about how your teeth meet, how they bite together. And that’s all your clear aligner treatment. You know, all the fun stuff. [00:41:30] And then the aesthetics will naturally come at the end of it. You know, if your teeth are functioning [00:41:35] right and if they’re healthy, you’re going to get a good aesthetics with it. So patients get that. But it’s a journey, [00:41:40] right? I’m not going to say to them on the first day they come in, oh yeah, you need eight fillings hygiene, root canal [00:41:45] crowns, clear aligner treatment, whitening, etc. etc. so I tell them from the [00:41:50] beginning, this is the journey we’re going to go on. But like you said, that could be a ten year journey. You know [00:41:55] when they’re ready. And it also depends on what they want. And they need to build that trust with you. I don’t [00:42:00] want to say to them, here’s your massive treatment plan. Let’s get it done. I’d rather just take it step by step.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:42:05] a really good approach. Who taught you that?

Kiran Shankla: Doctor Samir Patel.

Payman Langroudi: Really? Yeah. [00:42:10]

Kiran Shankla: So, yeah. Samir has been great. Um. And actually, he came, [00:42:15] I think. So I was in this plan. Practice 2020. I finished my master’s. I’m in this plan. [00:42:20] Practice Covid. You know, Covid has just come. And after Covid, I’m sure you know, [00:42:25] it was, like, crazy busy at work. It was 15 minute check-ups.

Payman Langroudi: It was a beautiful time. [00:42:30]

Kiran Shankla: Yeah, a good time. But also really like I found it quite tough because you had so many patients [00:42:35] and needed so much work. The diary was fully booked for eight weeks. Um, and I wasn’t getting [00:42:40] to do the dentistry I’d been trained to do, you know, and then I’d seen an advert in [00:42:45] the bacd for looking for an associate dentist at Samir’s practice in Henley. [00:42:50] So I thought, let me apply, you know, let’s see what happens. And I applied. He interviewed [00:42:55] me, he said, great, you’re going to be working on referral for me. So I went there, started working. [00:43:00] His nurse was amazing because we shared the same nurse, so she would help me out. And he was the first [00:43:05] one who actually ever said to me, because he would look at the work I’d done, he would actually say, your work is actually really good. [00:43:10] And he gave that confidence, you know, he was the first one to actually be like, actually, you’re really good at your posterior dentistry. [00:43:15] Um, and I knew my anterior dentistry at that point wasn’t great, but I was willing to learn and he was willing to teach. [00:43:20] And we ended up getting a really good relationship. And that’s why when he then bought practice, the [00:43:25] ortho practice, he invited me to come and work there. Um, but yeah, so that communication was [00:43:30] really important, which I think, I think there’s two things. If you’re a young dentist and you’re [00:43:35] listening to this, there’s two things which I would say are really important.

Kiran Shankla: And I think the first one, which a [00:43:40] lot of people forget about, is your clinical skills. I was like, you need to be a good dentist. Like [00:43:45] I was like, you need to be good. Like I sometimes I find dentistry really tough. And [00:43:50] I always say to my nurse, the most difficult dentistry is when a patient has had [00:43:55] dental work done somewhere else, but it’s been done to a substandard, you know, quality, [00:44:00] and they’ve been left with open contact or a void. And it’s just been sitting there for a couple of years, and [00:44:05] then I have to go in and fix that. I was like, that’s so much more difficult than if the patient had just come [00:44:10] and see me the first time around. And we had just done a good restoration. And I think the second thing is the communication, [00:44:15] and that comes with time, you know, and I think sometimes you get this dissociation. You’ve got a really [00:44:20] good dentist who’s communicating, but their clinical skills are not great. Or you have a dentist who’s [00:44:25] great at the clinical skills, but the communication is not there. Yeah. Um, so, you know, you could have like a [00:44:30] billion Instagram followers, but if your clinical dentistry is not great, then [00:44:35] what’s the point in it all? Like, when did dentistry become about your social media and when did it not become [00:44:40] about the patient? You know, that patient is the most for me is the most important thing.

Payman Langroudi: I get [00:44:45] it, I get it.

Kiran Shankla: I get.

Payman Langroudi: It. But there is always referral, right?

Kiran Shankla: Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, [00:44:50] I noticed you’re very busy on Instagram yourself, right? Yeah. But my, my point [00:44:55] is, let’s imagine I’m some sort of social media type. Yeah. [00:45:00] And loads of patients are coming to me. As long as I refer to the things [00:45:05] I don’t know how to do.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s nothing wrong with that.

Kiran Shankla: No, there’s nothing.

Kiran Shankla: Wrong with that.

Payman Langroudi: Nothing [00:45:10] wrong with that? No, of course we all need to, you know, deliver great dentistry, there’s [00:45:15] no doubt about that. Um, and you’re right in that not everyone takes [00:45:20] the time to isolate everything. Rubber dam. Everything. That’s true. Yeah, [00:45:25] you’re right about that. Um, not everyone has postgrad degrees, right? Yeah. You know. [00:45:30] Yeah. Um, but, you know, the question of, you know, staying happy as a dentist. [00:45:35] Yeah. Because it can wear you down. Yeah.

Kiran Shankla: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: The the [00:45:40] sum of the interactions can wear you down. Clinically, it can wear you down a little bit. Right? My [00:45:45] cousin’s a eye surgeon, and he was telling me the days that [00:45:50] he’s got LA operations are way, way, way more stressful than the [00:45:55] days that he does the gas. Mhm. Yeah. And it’s similar to us. They have to give injections in the [00:46:00] eye. Um and you know nervous patients and all that. So dentistry takes a toll. [00:46:05]

Kiran Shankla: Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Would you say the key to happiness in [00:46:10] dentistry. What would you say it is. I mean, from [00:46:15] the from the from from the outside looking at you. Certainly continuing to get better. [00:46:20] Yeah. Really is an important thing. Some people stagnate. Yes.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. [00:46:25]

Payman Langroudi: And the relationships, I mean, are you are you getting energy from the relationships [00:46:30] with your patients?

Kiran Shankla: Yeah, I think.

Kiran Shankla: I think with dentistry, especially the first ten [00:46:35] years, it’s tough. You know, you’re investing so much time educating, you’re probably [00:46:40] working. There was a time where I was working in three practices, six days a week. Oh, it was mental. Like, you know, [00:46:45] you just do it because you’re in. You’re in it. You have to do it. And I think getting [00:46:50] that, you know, really nice sort of happy medium is, is difficult [00:46:55] to find. Yeah. Um, I remember once I went to a lecture by [00:47:00] Nigel Foot and he nailed it on the head. He said, when you’re at work, you’ve got basically [00:47:05] this emotional reserve. So it’s kind of like when you go into your overdraft in a bank and [00:47:10] you keep using your overdraft here and here and here, and when you’re at work, you’ve got that emotional reserve, but [00:47:15] you need to give that to everyone at work your nurses, your staff, your patients. Yeah. [00:47:20] And then when you come home, you’re just like, I’m wiped out. But if your spouse doesn’t [00:47:25] understand that for them, it might be really, really difficult, especially if they’re not in that career. And I think [00:47:30] sometimes as dentists, we don’t really talk about that. You know, we don’t actually say to people, actually, I [00:47:35] am just mentally exhausted because the moment that patient sits in the chair, I’m thinking. [00:47:40] I’m thinking, what am I going to do next? What am I going to say? What treatment needs to be done? And it [00:47:45] is tough. It is really, really tough. Um, I’m very fortunate now. I work sort of three and a half days [00:47:50] a week and that has, you know, but that’s only been very recent. Up until then, it was [00:47:55] like five days a week.

Payman Langroudi: It’s too much, man.

Kiran Shankla: It’s too much.

Payman Langroudi: At the, at the the level [00:48:00] that you’re working. It’s too much. That’s the thing. Definitely. If you’re if you’re really, really caring [00:48:05] about every case and every patient, every interaction, every rubber dam, every contact point.

Kiran Shankla: It’s [00:48:10] too much.

Payman Langroudi: For days, for days, for me, for days is enough. Yeah. Not to [00:48:15] mention these days, I mean, I stopped in 2012 right back then. Well, it was when you just [00:48:20] qualified. Back then, you didn’t have to write essays. Yeah. Notes. Now you’ve [00:48:25] got all of that. Everything on top. You know, it’s, um. It’s funny [00:48:30] because I’ve talked to a lot of principals who begrudge these dentists who say, I want to work four [00:48:35] days. Three days? Yeah. Um, and I get it. As a business owner, I get it [00:48:40] right. You want people to be, you know, fully committed. Um, but I kind of welcome [00:48:45] this new idea. I meet loads of young dentists now saying I want to work [00:48:50] three days a week, and I only want to do a lime bleach blonde. Yeah. Yeah. Great. [00:48:55] Yeah. You know, if that’s what you can do.

Kiran Shankla: If that’s what makes you happy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. That’s what makes you happy. Yeah. Why not [00:49:00] do that? But then I do talk to a lot of dentists of my generation who hate that idea and say, [00:49:05] you’re a dentist. You have to know everything. You have to understand everything. And, um. [00:49:10] Why? You [00:49:15] must have come across both types. Right. I mean, in the Eastman, you get that sort of old school teaching. Tell me about the [00:49:20] the lab part. Do they make you do loads of lab work there as well?

Kiran Shankla: So because we were on the part time masters. [00:49:25] Yeah. You didn’t have to get involved with that. But there was the full time one year [00:49:30] cons. And I remember one after my first year, part time, I was thinking about switching to the full [00:49:35] time and the tutor said, just go meet the students and see if you want to do it. And [00:49:40] the first, I think ten weeks you’re there seven days a week doing your own lab work. And [00:49:45] I met the students, and I have never seen a bunch of students more depressed in my life. Broken. Broken. [00:49:50] I thought, forget it. Let’s stick to the part time. Because with the part time, you could still go on holidays, you could [00:49:55] still travel, you know, you could still have a bit of a life. Whereas with the full time, I was like, that just looks like [00:50:00] a.

Payman Langroudi: What was the.

Kiran Shankla: Cost? It was. Honestly, [00:50:05] I can’t remember now. I try not to think about it. I think nearly 40 to [00:50:10] 50 in total. In total. Yeah, definitely. And that’s obviously not including your days off [00:50:15] from work or travel time or all the extra time you put in. I mean, [00:50:20] I don’t. For me, it’s like you go on courses, right? Yeah. To get better. You never think, oh, [00:50:25] it’s costing me this much. Should I, should I not go? So it’s one of those things where if you’re investing, it will pay [00:50:30] off. Eventually.

Payman Langroudi: You’ll get it back.

Kiran Shankla: You’ll get it back. And equally. Like now I look at the practices I’m in, you know, [00:50:35] the dentistry we’re doing. It’s definitely paying itself back.

Payman Langroudi: So you recommend that course, right.

Kiran Shankla: Well, [00:50:40] at. That time that was the path that I followed. But I actually think now there’s some very good [00:50:45] one year courses or there’s some even great like weekend courses that you go on. So similarly, [00:50:50] even though I did the Masters, I still go on courses. You know, I still might think, oh, I really want to get better at Posterior [00:50:55] Composites. Let’s see who’s good at that. I want to get better at veneers. Let’s see who’s good at that. So if you’re not going [00:51:00] to do that, then I would say pick the person who’s best in that field and go on their course [00:51:05] because everyone is great at something, you know. So you might find someone who’s fantastic at Anterior Bonding, [00:51:10] go on to their course, find someone who’s great at Root Canal, go on to their course, and you can build [00:51:15] that way, basically.

Payman Langroudi: What about the soft benefits of being at the Eastman? [00:51:20] So, you know, hard benefits. Okay. They teach you this. They teach you that. Yeah. But did you [00:51:25] make contacts with it? Sort of. I don’t know, Inspirational tutors [00:51:30] that made you want to be even better. Do you have someone you can call now that you didn’t have [00:51:35] before? So people on your course, maybe.

Kiran Shankla: Well, one one great thing was so [00:51:40] the second practice I work at Kendrick through dental practice. One of the principals there, he [00:51:45] actually took a year out. So he was doing the masters. He was in the year above me, had no idea who he was, [00:51:50] and then he took a year out and actually came into my year in the dissertation, and [00:51:55] we both connected. We got the same name. We got. We started talking and he said, oh, I own a practice in [00:52:00] Redding.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so that’s how you got that job?

Kiran Shankla: And that’s how I got the job, because then two years later, when they were looking [00:52:05] for an associate, he basically said, if you just apply for the job here and I think you’ll get it. And [00:52:10] so that connection was incredible because if I hadn’t met him, I would have never known about the practice or if [00:52:15] I applied, we would have never had that connection in terms of tutors, unfortunately, because [00:52:20] we ended in the Covid year.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you didn’t meet them very much.

Kiran Shankla: We didn’t meet them very much. And it all sort of, [00:52:25] you know, you kind of just I didn’t even have a graduation ceremony. Oh, yeah. It was, like, delayed. And [00:52:30] then I wanted to go to have the photo taken, and they cancelled that because there was another bit of Covid. So it was all [00:52:35] kind of haphazard at the end.

Payman Langroudi: Just hard to get in.

Kiran Shankla: For the part time masters. [00:52:40] No, I would say it’s not hard to get in. Oh really? I think yeah, they’re quite open to taking on anyone. [00:52:45] We had lots of dentists, different age groups graduated from different places from around the world. [00:52:50] Very easy to get in. The good thing about the Eastman one, compared to maybe a few [00:52:55] others, was it was hands on, whereas I think a couple of the others are all theory and [00:53:00] I needed the hands on. So that was another reason why it pushed me that way. But there’s now one year [00:53:05] courses, you know, diplomas where you get hands on. Yeah. So I think if you’re looking for, you know, a structured [00:53:10] learning pathway, look for one where you’re getting that hands on element. So you get to pick up the BA and [00:53:15] then go back into work and do the cases and then present them basically. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [00:53:20] talk about the future. Are you gonna open your [00:53:25] own?

Kiran Shankla: I’m an R about it. You know, people always ask me, would [00:53:30] you open your own practice? But I’m. I think I’m very fortunate that I have been both practices. [00:53:35] I work and I have full autonomy, you know, so I can book as long as I want. Uh, [00:53:40] choose the hours. I pretty much work. Uh, charge whatever I like.

Payman Langroudi: That is nice.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. [00:53:45] You know, so I think.

Payman Langroudi: Often the reason people start their own practices because something like that [00:53:50] isn’t in place.

Kiran Shankla: Isn’t in.

Payman Langroudi: Place. Yeah. So they, they sort of banging heads with the principle. [00:53:55] Yeah. Yeah. So, so you, there’s less of a motivation for you to actually open [00:54:00] your own.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. Because I think if I wasn’t in these practices then maybe it would push me [00:54:05] more. But I also think like, you know, I have one of the Hendrick view we’ve got it’s [00:54:10] a ten surgery, private practice, maybe 25 staff, ten surgeries. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s bloody.

Kiran Shankla: Hell. This practice [00:54:15] is incredible. If you ever come up to reading, I’ll definitely show it to you. But it looks like it should belong on Harley Street. [00:54:20] But it’s in the centre of reading. It’s got a fantastic reputation. We’ve got staff members who’ve [00:54:25] been there for over 30 years. You know, we’ve got nurses for over 20 years. And that’s what appealed [00:54:30] to me about the practice because I was like, how often do nurses, you know, such a high turnover [00:54:35] because they always want the next job or they’re progressing in their career. How often is it where you come across a practice [00:54:40] where like, oh, we’ve had a nurse for 20 years, or I’ve had the same nurse since the day I started there. [00:54:45] And that for me is incredible.

Payman Langroudi: It goes a long way.

Kiran Shankla: It goes such a long way. You know all those [00:54:50] things.

Payman Langroudi: If you get on with her, right?

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. We get along really, really well. And I think those [00:54:55] things for me, I was like, I have all of that. And if I opened a practice, what would I sacrifice? [00:55:00] What would be the sacrifice? Would it be the lecturing? Would it be the cases? Would it be my personal [00:55:05] life? You know, I think something would have to give. And I’m really content at the moment. I’m [00:55:10] happy, you know, I work, I go home, it’s like a nice. It’s a nice life, you know. [00:55:15]

[BOTH]: What are your lecturing subjects?

Kiran Shankla: So my main one is icon. Okay. [00:55:20]

Payman Langroudi: So let’s get into that. Let’s get into that.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. So a fair few icon referrals in the practice [00:55:25] from around surrounding area. I’ve been working with DMG for about 4 or 5 years.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get into icon. [00:55:30] Yeah. What are the what are the white spots or brown spots that icon can’t treat like when [00:55:35] you. I get this question all the time right. Dentists contact me. What do I need to [00:55:40] do here? Yeah. And I’ll say stuff like, uh, whiten and then consent for [00:55:45] Microabrasion icon and composites, basically. Yeah, that’s what I say. But but but which are the cases [00:55:50] now? Clearly sort of the very chalky, well demarcated chalky area. [00:55:55] Yeah. Icons not going to be able to handle that. Is that correct.

Kiran Shankla: That’s correct. So anything like mine [00:56:00] where it’s impacting where it’s going into your dentine, where it’s really, really deep icon [00:56:05] will help. But it’s not everything. So I think what dentists get wrong is they see oh white spot. [00:56:10] Let’s put some icon on and then it doesn’t work because they haven’t realised that that spot is actually really opaque [00:56:15] and going into your dentine. So on those cases you will need to use some sort of micro abrasion [00:56:20] or composite at the end to help remove and camouflage the spot, but you still use icon [00:56:25] to get into the deeper layers, but you need something a little bit more like micro enamel removal [00:56:30] to remove that outer surface. And I think that’s where dentists get confused.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s good to actually say to the [00:56:35] patient, I’m going to try that. If it doesn’t work, I’m going to move on to this. And that. Is that the way you say it?

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. [00:56:40] So when they come in for their consultations, I say, you know, you’ve got some simplest, uh, lesions [00:56:45] and you’ve got a bit deeper lesions. And I’ll bring up the photos and I’ll say, can you see the difference in colours and everything? [00:56:50] And I’ll be like with those ones, they will need a little bit of enamel removed. Um, [00:56:55] but don’t worry, I’m going to put a little composite restoration at the end, so it’s going to look like normal to you. So I’ve [00:57:00] already primed them, which I think a lot of dentists. If you’re starting out with icon, you don’t realise that [00:57:05] you need to do that. You just think I’ve got to put the gel on and then that’s it. So it’s same again. It’s been [00:57:10] a learning curve, like there’s so many papers I read. I think I remember the case which changed [00:57:15] my opinion on icon. I actually messaged yourself on Instagram because it was a young girl with brown [00:57:20] and white spots, and I messaged myself and a few other dentists and, um, everyone said, you need to [00:57:25] do a little bit of whitening and then icon. But she was young and at that time I didn’t have the confidence [00:57:30] to do whitening and under 18. But now I’ve looked into it, I’ve contacted my indemnity, I’ve [00:57:35] researched it, and actually it’s something that we do do, but in very specific cases if it’s going to help them basically. [00:57:40]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I think now we’re okay, right? We’re okay under eighteens.

Kiran Shankla: Even.

Payman Langroudi: Now.

Kiran Shankla: People still messaging [00:57:45] me saying they’ll send me a case and they’ll say, so do you think I can do this with icon? She’s booked in next [00:57:50] week. And the first thing I’ll say, have you done the whitening? They’re like, no, she’s under 18. And I’m [00:57:55] like, Then I’ll explain to him, you need to do the whitening first because it’s the most conservative option. I said, talk to your [00:58:00] indemnity. And once they talk to their indemnity, they’re like, oh yeah, they’ve actually said there’s like nine reasons why [00:58:05] I can do it. And as long as we’re saying it’s not for.

Payman Langroudi: The disconnect, the disconnect is the GDC [00:58:10] have said it’s fine. Yes. But the.

Kiran Shankla: Trading.

Payman Langroudi: Standards, the consumer law, [00:58:15] it’s still illegal.

Kiran Shankla: Yes, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So it’s a it’s a funny. Linda’s working [00:58:20] very hard on it. It has been for. She has been for a long time.

Kiran Shankla: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: But okay let’s continue with [00:58:25] icon. What are the things to look out for. I mean by the way when you get to the composite are you using flowable [00:58:30] opaque.

Kiran Shankla: No. So just single layer enamel shade.

Payman Langroudi: But isn’t it if let’s [00:58:35] say you you use your icon, you drill. It’s still chalky. Yeah. Rather [00:58:40] than drilling any further, if you use a flowable opaque and then the.

Kiran Shankla: You [00:58:45] can.

Payman Langroudi: Does that happen?

Kiran Shankla: It doesn’t. Normally I don’t use the opaque. [00:58:50] As for icon cases, I tend to use them more for edge bonding or composite veneers or anything. But with the icon [00:58:55] essentially, essentially what’s happened is the tooth has erupted and then due to fluoride [00:59:00] or tooth brushing, the outer surface is hardened basically. So when you’re using your like for samples, [00:59:05] you’re just using it to break the outer enamel shell and then your eye penetrates deeper. Exactly. [00:59:10] And then your icon gel is what’s penetrating deeper. And that should penetrate the whole depth of the spot [00:59:15] then. So when you put the infiltrate, you’ll see that that spot will disappear, but you’ll be left with a bit of [00:59:20] a groove. And then that’s where your composite goes on top. So if you’re still getting the white spot, it means you haven’t [00:59:25] penetrated deep enough, basically.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I.

Kiran Shankla: See. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what else? What other tips icon [00:59:30] tips.

Kiran Shankla: Well tips. So always do whitening first. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um do you isolate. You have [00:59:35] to write because the acid is quite the acid.

Kiran Shankla: So I always on on my course I always say use [00:59:40] a rubber dam if you can, because that icon actually tend to use it for maybe three, four cycles. [00:59:45] If it gets onto the soft tissue, you’ve just left 15% hydrochloric acid there for maybe if you haven’t [00:59:50] noticed, you could have left it there for like 15 minutes or so and that’s going to cause a nasty burn basically. [00:59:55] Uh, generally with icon, it’s about consenting your patient as well. Uh, [01:00:00] I find patients who have that treatment. They’re so thankful. You know, some of the patients [01:00:05] who rave the most about you are the ones who everyone has said no to, and then eventually they end up [01:00:10] coming to see you and you’re actually like, oh, I can help you. And you show them your cases and they’re just so happy. It’s always on [01:00:15] young children. So you’ve got to imagine that, like, we had a young chap at the ortho practice [01:00:20] who had big brown marks on his teeth and no one had treated him. And then I just started [01:00:25] working there. So they said, I’ll go and see Kieran. And we just treated it with icon and whitening [01:00:30] and he’s had his teeth closed. They all look amazing. He’s had a growth spurt. I was like, imagine the [01:00:35] life for that teenager now compared to two. I was like, his whole life trajectory is going to change. [01:00:40] He’s got that confidence.

Payman Langroudi: How do you know where you should do Microabrasion [01:00:45] first?

Kiran Shankla: So icon it depends if it’s a fluorosis [01:00:50] case or white spot lesions after orthodontic treatment then that’s more simple icon [01:00:55] microabrasion that will treat it. If you’ve got trauma which has caused a white spot or if you’ve got m.i.h [01:01:00] so your single opaque white spots, then you know you’re going to need to go in with something deeper, [01:01:05] basically. So that’s when you may use your burr to just access the top.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but how do you know whether or not you should [01:01:10] do microabrasion? I mean, a lot of people skip right through Microabrasion and they could.

Kiran Shankla: So generally.

Payman Langroudi: Just go straight to icon.

Kiran Shankla: They [01:01:15] go straight to icon. So it depends on the diagnosis. So depending on which one of the four diagnosis you have. And [01:01:20] also you can use your light. So you’ve got like translumination. So when you use your light [01:01:25] you can see where the lesions are. So if they’re running into the dentine then you know okay [01:01:30] icon or abrasion is not going to be effective enough. I need to use something like a burr or [01:01:35] sandblast or something like that. Whereas if they’re in the superficial area then you can do the icon or microabrasion [01:01:40] and probably not even need to touch the fast handpiece and you’ll get a really good result.

Payman Langroudi: Anything radiographic. [01:01:45] Is there something you can see on an x ray on a on a white spot?

Kiran Shankla: To be honest, I don’t normally take [01:01:50] pars of anterior teeth, which we’re going to be doing icon on, but I know with [01:01:55] the Niri software on the itero for posterior, you can see the change. And [01:02:00] then when you do icon on posterity if you can change it. But yeah, I haven’t taken I don’t really [01:02:05] expose the young child to anterior X-rays unless there’s something else going on. Yeah. [01:02:10]

Payman Langroudi: And what do you charge?

Kiran Shankla: It really depends, um, which practice [01:02:15] I’m in, but it tends to be on an hourly rate, basically. So I don’t say to the patient, oh, [01:02:20] you’re going to need an icon and a composite icon. Is this the composite? Is this. I just say to the patient [01:02:25] you’re going to come in for the treatment. I’ve booked you two hours for it. And basically this is this is how much.

Payman Langroudi: It’s how long [01:02:30] it takes.

Kiran Shankla: It depends on case by case if it’s like a single spot, an hour, if it’s like eight teeth fluorosis, [01:02:35] maybe two hours and same again, I say to them, look, I love taking photos. So for me it might take [01:02:40] a bit longer, but because they’re a younger patient like a teenager, they’re not used [01:02:45] to having like rubber dam and all these bits on. So that takes a bit of time, you know, just to get the rubber [01:02:50] dam. I don’t normally numb up for icon, so sometimes it takes longer to get the rubber dam on completely [01:02:55] inverted, you know, for eight teeth than actually doing the icon treatment just there.

Payman Langroudi: Does it not get sensitive? [01:03:00]

Kiran Shankla: The only time patients have complained is a bit sore if I’ve got rubber dam clamps on. [01:03:05] So now I don’t use clamps, I just use widgets. But I think I’ve [01:03:10] only ever done one icon case with local anaesthetic, and it’s because he had a fixed retainer [01:03:15] on and we had to put a basically a clamp to really push back the rubber dam over the full [01:03:20] tooth. Apart from that, it’s like without any local anaesthetic or anything. Yeah. So I get [01:03:25] yeah. Touchwood. It’s been that’s really helped develop my career. We get a lot of referrals [01:03:30] in for it, trying to teach people how to do it now because I think, like you said, people try it and it doesn’t work and [01:03:35] they give up on it. But there is a step by step protocol that they can follow. And it really [01:03:40] has changed my dentistry, because those are the cases which you make the most difference. You know, no one’s ever [01:03:45] going to go home and be like, look at this amazing filling my dentist did. But if you change a young person’s smile, [01:03:50] you know it’s everything for them.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the Cole work. So [01:03:55] the key opinion leader.

Kiran Shankla: So that essentially.

Payman Langroudi: How did you land these key [01:04:00] opinion leader roles?

Kiran Shankla: I think it was a bit of luck and the right time. So [01:04:05] with the icon, what happened is the rep had come into the practice to talk to us about the [01:04:10] product, and then I had done a couple of cases and I was offered. [01:04:15] I was invited because it was Covid to do an online webinar, uh, for this company out in [01:04:20] Asia and India. I think it was they said, you can do on anything you like. And I just started using icons. So I [01:04:25] thought, let me just do a webinar on that. And the rep had seen it and he actually just took it straight to headquarters [01:04:30] and said, actually, I think this young dentist might be good. And then the next. I still remember the phone call [01:04:35] I got. We were walking me and my husband, uh, and I remember the phone call and I [01:04:40] answered it and he said, yeah, you’ve been made one of our calls. So I think they just happened to maybe they needed [01:04:45] at that particular point in time, they were looking for a young female, maybe ethnically diverse, who was [01:04:50] doing some decent dentistry, and it all landed. I think there’s a bit of luck, but a bit of hard [01:04:55] work.

Payman Langroudi: What does it mean to be a colleague?

Kiran Shankla: So it means you get to do the lecturing, you get to go around, do the lecturing, [01:05:00] you get to try out the new materials. So you get to write the article. So [01:05:05] it depends how big you want to take it, right? So some cables don’t want to do much. Some just want to [01:05:10] focus on the article. Some want to focus on the lecturing. So you get exposed to new [01:05:15] materials that are being made before they get bought onto the market. So you get to try them out. Also, [01:05:20] if there’s any papers that have been published, you get to know about them firsthand. But I guess for me it was [01:05:25] always the teaching the cable allowed me then for someone to be like, actually, we’ve got some great opportunities. [01:05:30] Why don’t you come teach?

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, do you get paid to be a col [01:05:35] or do you just get paid per time you teach or what? Where’s the pay? Basically when when you [01:05:40] teach.

Kiran Shankla: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: What about when you write an article? You get paid for that.

Kiran Shankla: You get for that. Yeah. So [01:05:45] yeah. So it’s like, you know, it’s not you probably would earn more in practice to be honest, [01:05:50] if you were on a busy practice. So you’re not doing it for the money element. But I quite enjoy [01:05:55] teaching. You know, it’s great to help dentists. I think as a profession.

Payman Langroudi: Would you say it’s a similar deal with [01:06:00] both companies?

Kiran Shankla: Similar. Yeah. Very very similar.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Everything like, as [01:06:05] far as, you know, what it means to be there.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. I think like Simon Cowell [01:06:10] for SDI as well. And same again.

Payman Langroudi: How’d that come about?

Kiran Shankla: So one of the [01:06:15] reps just happened to be in the area. I had got her contact details from one of the Dental [01:06:20] shows, so she said, I’ll come in and show you a few materials. And at this point, I think my Instagram [01:06:25] was quite heavily clinically orientated, so she started following me. And then same [01:06:30] again. She just said, hey Kieran, do you want to be a Cowell? So that one just she obviously just saw [01:06:35] the work I was doing, maybe had a chat with her supervisor and said, there’s someone in the area who’s pretty good. And they just [01:06:40] landed like that. So with these cables, I haven’t gone after them. You know, I think I’ve [01:06:45] been very fortunate. They’ve just seen.

Payman Langroudi: Did you use the SDI composite.

Kiran Shankla: The [01:06:50] Luna for sometimes for anterior restorations? Yeah. It’s not like if anterior. [01:06:55] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s get on to the darker part of the pod. [01:07:00] We’d like to talk about mistakes. Yeah, like clinical errors. [01:07:05] Things that other people can learn from. What comes to mind when I say biggest mistakes you’ve [01:07:10] made?

Kiran Shankla: So biggest mistakes? I think we’re always learning. You know, generally in the job. Yeah. In terms of [01:07:15] mistakes. So I was thinking about this, uh, for, you know, after you sent me the email [01:07:20] and one. So a couple of things come to mind. One was, uh, I was doing an online preparation [01:07:25] for a patient on a lower six, and she had fracture lines. So that’s why we were doing [01:07:30] the online. So I took out the amalgam, and both the buccal and the lingual cusp went. And this tooth looked amazing, [01:07:35] you know, had a rim of enamel. It was naturally fractured or felt great. So I took the scan, [01:07:40] got the online back, tried it in, looked good, uh, cemented it in, got [01:07:45] the patient to bite together. The bite was off completely. I was thinking, [01:07:50] what happened here? Like it’s gone down perfectly, adjusted the bite [01:07:55] and then got her in for a roux, took an x ray, and I said, that doesn’t look right. And I realised I’d basically cemented [01:08:00] it in the wrong way round, but I hadn’t realised. Yeah. So basically the [01:08:05] buckle, the buckle was on the lingual. Lingual is on the buckle. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good one.

Kiran Shankla: I called the lab and I said.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:08:10] a goodie.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah I said what happened? And he said, Kieran this is such a rare event. The prep was like [01:08:15] perfectly symmetrical on both sides. And he said, you obviously just got confused and cemented [01:08:20] it in wrong. And I thought, okay, great. So I just told the patient, you know, obviously it’s not gone how we planned [01:08:25] and then removed it and gave her a new one.

Payman Langroudi: I had to cut it off.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah, cut it off. Had to take it off. Yeah [01:08:30] I had to take it off because the margins were not perfect on the x ray we took.

Payman Langroudi: Was the patient cool?

Kiran Shankla: She was fine. Yeah. [01:08:35] She was like.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not looking for that kind of error. I’m looking for a different kind of error, like one where the patient wasn’t cool. [01:08:40] I mean, nice, nice story. Um, if it’s any consolation, Basil Mizrahi, [01:08:45] his his one was he put the left lateral on the right lateral veneers. [01:08:50]

Kiran Shankla: I had to do the same. Just remove them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah, definitely.

Payman Langroudi: But I need [01:08:55] a better story than that.

Kiran Shankla: But a story. So I think clear aligners is, you know, you’ve got [01:09:00] the expectations that come with clear aligners, with patients.

Payman Langroudi: At the end.

Kiran Shankla: At the.

Payman Langroudi: End. My daughter’s going through that [01:09:05] right now. She’s being so, so picky and clear minded. She [01:09:10] was like, yeah, your daughters are quite picky, right?

Kiran Shankla: And so, um, [01:09:15] so I have had a patient who was in my old practice who we had finished the treatment on, uh, and [01:09:20] after I left for one year, I was coming back every 6 to 8 weeks just to see her, to finish off [01:09:25] her treatment, which I was happy to do. Uh, and at the end, she said, I’m happy she signed the consent form. I’m [01:09:30] like, great. Got her retainers. I thought, great, I’m done. And then three months later, she’s [01:09:35] emailed the practice saying, I’m not happy. My teeth are moving again. And [01:09:40] so obviously I’m not now. It’s been 16 months since I’ve left officially. [01:09:45] The practice. And so I’m getting CC’d into all these email correspondence [01:09:50] saying, you know, patient’s not happy. She thinks the teeth are moving. I said, well, can someone just take [01:09:55] a scan and just show it to me. And they took a scan and I was like, well, it looks exactly the same as [01:10:00] her previous scan. So they said that to her. She went away again. Then she came back three [01:10:05] months later after that and she said, I’m not happy with the alignment. You know, I’m not happy with the position [01:10:10] of the teeth. And at this point, I had started my own, uh, clear aligner [01:10:15] journey. So when I had a look at this scan again, I said, you know what? I get it. [01:10:20] Like I understand why she thinks we haven’t finished, because if I if that was me, because [01:10:25] even I’m coming to the end, I’m becoming really picky. I’m like your daughter. I’m like, I want perfection. But it was frustrating [01:10:30] because we had completed the treatment. She had signed the consent form. And now. [01:10:35]

Payman Langroudi: What did you.

Kiran Shankla: Do? Well, unfortunately, no one in the practice was willing to take on the case.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kiran Shankla: And [01:10:40] I spoke to my indemnity, and they said, Karen, do you think she could do with more aligners? And I said, yeah, I think she can because [01:10:45] I’m in that same position, I get it. So they said, if you think she needs more aligners, just go deal with [01:10:50] it. So I got her more aligners and now I’m going back to finish off the treatment.

Payman Langroudi: Still visiting that [01:10:55] practice? Visiting the practice two years on.

Kiran Shankla: Essentially two years on. So I’ve got to go back in a few weeks and finish it [01:11:00] off.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Kiran Shankla: And so that’s been like tough because I’m like, where do I stand? Because if it was [01:11:05] a crown, if it was a root canal, if it was a filling that had failed, the practice would have just had to deal [01:11:10] with it. But because they’re not dealing with it, it’s coming down to me.

Payman Langroudi: And if you’re losing money every time [01:11:15] you’re going in and all of that. Right.

Kiran Shankla: So if it ever came down to court, they would say, well, you’re the dentist. [01:11:20] You’ve got to deal with it.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah. Interesting. Well, we had a mini smile makeover [01:11:25] about a month ago. And one of the delegates, um, she she got a [01:11:30] WhatsApp sort of at the end of day two, near the end of day two, and I [01:11:35] noticed she was just. She was just typing, typing, typing, typing, typing. And I actually wanted, you know, [01:11:40] there was this amazing case, like the best case of the whole of the whole two day course. [01:11:45] So I kind of tapped her on the shoulder and said, you know, this is really interesting. And watch this. And I noticed [01:11:50] she wasn’t into it. And then I spoke to her and she goes, oh, there’s a complaint. Yeah. And [01:11:55] throughout the second day, she wasn’t herself, let alone 16 [01:12:00] months later. It’s a constant issue. I know that’s there. [01:12:05] And and, you know, sort of sort of draining you. Yes. [01:12:10]

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. Because now it’s been coming up to nearly two years since I left the practice, but I’m having to go back.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:12:15] is the patient still kind of think that you’re doing your best, or has there been any question [01:12:20] around? I mean, for instance, on reflection, would you have done something differently here? Was there a communication [01:12:25] breakdown or something like that?

Kiran Shankla: I think on reflection, I think so many [01:12:30] of your colleagues may say this. You get this gut instinct.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kiran Shankla: And I think [01:12:35] in hindsight may.

Payman Langroudi: Have treated her at all.

Kiran Shankla: Shouldn’t have treated her at all.

Payman Langroudi: Really really really.

Kiran Shankla: Really. So [01:12:40] I think the expectations were too high. And at that point I’d started the treatment I, I had no intention [01:12:45] of leaving the practice. But then obviously once I handed my notice in, I and I still think, [01:12:50] you know, I still went back to Twitter. I still accommodated, worked around whichever time was available. [01:12:55] But I think now I’m just like, oh, I’m still here. Like two years later.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s [01:13:00] a weird tension. It’s a weird tension.

Kiran Shankla: A weird tension, because she probably knows I don’t want to be there.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. But it’s a weird tension, [01:13:05] insomuch as a lot of especially in private practice. Right? A lot of what we’re doing is making the patient [01:13:10] happy. Yeah. Um, certainly when I was in private practice, I service [01:13:15] was a big part of what I was doing. I used to get pleasure from, from from making people happy. [01:13:20] And especially if there’s something that you’re quite good at. Yeah. Let’s say my world [01:13:25] whitening. Yeah. If I had a whitening patient and and they said something like, I went to another [01:13:30] practice and we did whitening and it didn’t work. Yeah. Yeah. My ego would kick [01:13:35] in and say, well, you know, they don’t know what they’re doing in my head. In my own head. Yeah. I think, [01:13:40] well, maybe, maybe the guy didn’t know anyone could do it. Exactly right. And, and and the warning [01:13:45] sign there is that maybe the guy did know what he was doing. Maybe it was the patient. Yes. [01:13:50] Whatever. Not necessarily the the, you know, mental side. Not necessarily the, you know, maybe there [01:13:55] was clinically something. Yeah. In whitening bruxism, you know, it’s a real nightmare when [01:14:00] it happens. Um, now I go ahead and treat that patient. Things [01:14:05] don’t go as planned. Yeah. Then then I’m. Then I’m in [01:14:10] a situation now where now I’ve got this problem. Um, but what I’m saying is the tension [01:14:15] between trying to make people happy and and ignoring [01:14:20] that spidey sense that tells you don’t do this or, you know, be careful. It’s [01:14:25] a tension. You get it wrong sometimes.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah, definitely. And I think as you get older, you become a [01:14:30] bit more cautious. Yeah. But when you’re younger, you kind of just like take. So that’s, you know, it’s [01:14:35] like it’s okay. Like, you know, at the time I was frustrated and annoyed that [01:14:40] I had to go and do this, but I’ve just come to terms with it. I’m like, it’s just something you have to do.

Payman Langroudi: It’s part.

Kiran Shankla: Of the job. [01:14:45]

Payman Langroudi: In cosmetics as part of.

Kiran Shankla: The job. I was like, just go and do it. Make sure she’s happy, get another consent [01:14:50] form.

Payman Langroudi: Is it over now or no?

Kiran Shankla: I’ll go back in a few weeks and we’ll have [01:14:55] a look at it, basically. But, um, yeah, that’s probably it’s, you know, that it’s frustrating, but what can [01:15:00] you do. You know, at least. And the problem was in her emails, I think she started accusing me of rushing [01:15:05] the treatment. And I was like, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Not here we go.

Kiran Shankla: I was like, that’s not cool. And I need to stop [01:15:10] this. Like, I need to I need to get involved now before this escalates. So I was just like, just go sort it out, Kieran. [01:15:15] It’s not the end of the world. You can make it work. So yeah, it’s done. It’s okay. But in [01:15:20] hindsight, maybe I wouldn’t have taken on.

Payman Langroudi: I mean they’ve kind of she’s made it personal there. Yeah. But [01:15:25] I’d say the number one advice in these situations is don’t take it personally, you know. Exactly. That’s the thing. [01:15:30]

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And because I know because I’m having my own treatment as well. And even [01:15:35] I’m waiting for just one tooth to align, I can see it. I’m like, yeah, I get it. Like, let’s get it sorted. [01:15:40]

Payman Langroudi: So I had your guitar. Do you know your guitar? She’s, uh, she’s the Basil’s [01:15:45] associate.

Kiran Shankla: Oh, yes. Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah. So she said to me, you know, she gets some of the most difficult [01:15:50] patients cosmetically. And she said to me, look, if I can see [01:15:55] what the patient is saying, I’m going to take that case on. Yeah. However complicated [01:16:00] mentally that patient is because she sees herself as the last sort of, [01:16:05] you know, the last place people who the Eastman reject, she takes on [01:16:10] sometimes. Yeah. Um, but she’s saying sometimes when she can’t see it, that’s the point [01:16:15] where that’s the line that she’s drawing and you’re kind of saying, by having the treatment yourself, [01:16:20] you realised, you know, that that situation, right? You want it to be perfect. [01:16:25]

Kiran Shankla: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting I like that one. That’s a good one. Better than the Upside Down. [01:16:30] Listen, we’ve come to the end of our time. Let’s end it with the usual. The usual [01:16:35] questions. Fantasy dinner party. Yes. Three guests, [01:16:40] dead or alive. Who are you having?

Kiran Shankla: So I, I so I [01:16:45] would have my three grandparents who are not with us anymore. So I think I lost them [01:16:50] when I was quite young, 11, 12 and 18. And I think at that stage in your life, you actually [01:16:55] don’t appreciate them. You kind of just think there’s someone who’s there, but you don’t. I [01:17:00] never had that chance to develop that relationship. So for me it would be them. But obviously, obviously [01:17:05] if it was like, you know, a fun party and they could be there too, but it’d just be like [01:17:10] some someone really cool, like some like Albert Einstein or, you know, just people who [01:17:15] made a difference to the world or, you know, uh, Ellen.

Payman Langroudi: Ellen, [01:17:20] Ellen’s reputation’s not so good anymore.

Kiran Shankla: Uh, or like, you know, just like, [01:17:25] um, the guy who discovered Australia cook. I can’t remember his first name, but just, you know, [01:17:30] some people who’ve done different football. Not. No. So I used to play it loads and never [01:17:35] once.

Payman Langroudi: A.

Kiran Shankla: Fan once Manchester United lost Alex Ferguson. I think I kind of just lost [01:17:40] interest. I watched the big games like the World Cup, the women’s or men’s team are [01:17:45] playing. Support England all the way, but not the everyday sort of, you know, Premier League or anything like [01:17:50] that.

Payman Langroudi: Do you follow any sport?

Kiran Shankla: Honestly, just the big tournaments. [01:17:55] So a Wimbledon. Yeah. Watch it like you know F1 when they’re on watch it but not on a regular basis. [01:18:00] Because even with the sports it’s like you get so emotionally involved with like you see people get talk [01:18:05] about their teams and they get into arguments and everything. I was like, is it worth it? You know, is that is that worth it [01:18:10] all?

Payman Langroudi: I go to a football match. I find myself when I’ve been. I don’t go often, but when [01:18:15] I’ve been, I find myself looking at the audience more than more than the tribalism of the audience. [01:18:20] It’s quite interesting. Yeah, definitely. I find that much more interesting than the game sometimes.

Kiran Shankla: I [01:18:25] just enjoying the atmosphere.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Final question. Yeah. It’s deathbed. It’s [01:18:30] a bit weird, someone as old as you. But on your deathbed. Three pieces of advice for friends [01:18:35] and family. What would they be?

Kiran Shankla: I think, um, just [01:18:40] be happy, you know? Just be happy. Be happy. Just. I [01:18:45] think we.

Payman Langroudi: What if I’m not happy?

Kiran Shankla: I think we live in a society where [01:18:50] we compare all the time to others. We’re always comparing. And sometimes [01:18:55] you just need to take a step out and just think. Actually, I’m super [01:19:00] lucky, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Be grateful.

Kiran Shankla: Be grateful. I think if you are born in maybe like one of ten [01:19:05] countries, you’re already better off than most people in the world. You know, in the West, it’s I’m not saying it’s perfect [01:19:10] anywhere, but you’ve got so many opportunities. You know, you’ve got so much safety. You know, you’ve got [01:19:15] so many things which we have access to, which in other places, they just don’t. I think just be happy. Be [01:19:20] grateful. I think don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Feel like, you know, the the clichés [01:19:25] are all real.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like the count your blessings. Yes. Life [01:19:30] is such a bitch. Yeah. That that. It’s the only way to get through it is to count your blessings. [01:19:35]

Kiran Shankla: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: But go on. Yeah. Like that?

Kiran Shankla: I think the second one is like, [01:19:40] if you feel you want to do something, do it. Don’t have no regrets. [01:19:45] You know, it might be the worst decision in the world, but at least you did it because there’s no there’s [01:19:50] no point in living life with so many regrets, you know? So for, like me, I really wanted to go to Australia. I [01:19:55] did, it didn’t work out. It’s cool, you know? It’s okay. But if I hadn’t gone, I’d probably still be sitting [01:20:00] here today. I want to go. Yeah, yeah. So I think have no regrets. And I guess the [01:20:05] third thing would be travel. Enjoy the world for what [01:20:10] it is. You know, it’s great being isolated in your own city or town, but [01:20:15] the world has so much to offer. Um, I’ve been very fortunate. Like, I’ve seen all the seven [01:20:20] wonders of the world. Yeah, we’ve done them all, like backpacked South America, Central America. [01:20:25]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, nice.

Kiran Shankla: Lived abroad, like, climbed Mount Kilimanjaro. And for me, like, [01:20:30] the experiences in life are so much better than what car [01:20:35] you drive or what bag you have. You know, those experiences will define you basically, [01:20:40] because they’ll be the happiest moments in your time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kiran Shankla: You know, so just have good experiences, travel, enjoy [01:20:45] the world for what it is.

Payman Langroudi: You gave three answers there that are all things you do. What [01:20:50] about something you wish you’d done or way you wish [01:20:55] you were? You know when you advise your loved ones.

Kiran Shankla: Oh, I [01:21:00] don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve kind of come up with the I did this. It worked for me. You should to.

Kiran Shankla: Do. [01:21:05]

Payman Langroudi: It too. What about. What about stuff you didn’t do that you wish you did do? I think you said don’t live [01:21:10] with regrets. So that’s.

Kiran Shankla: I think, take the risks. So maybe.

Payman Langroudi: You risk [01:21:15] averse a little.

Kiran Shankla: Bit. Probably more risk averse. Yeah. So I guess if you asked me five [01:21:20] years, sometimes I think, like you asked about opening the practice, maybe I should have done it, but [01:21:25] maybe I thought too much into it or was too risky.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not sure that you know the way you’ve described it. Yeah. [01:21:30] The associate life’s wonderful when when you’re in the right practice. It really [01:21:35] is. You know, if you’re if you’re seeing patients you like and you’re doing the [01:21:40] treatment the way you want to do it, and the practice is the way you like it to be. You’re [01:21:45] making money as an associate without any of the headaches. There’s [01:21:50] a there’s a lot to be said for that. Yeah, there’s a lot to be said for that. Um, [01:21:55] risk is a funny thing, you know, because.

Kiran Shankla: They go two ways.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:22:00] yeah. The I mean, I don’t know. The way I think about [01:22:05] things is sometimes you want to sort of make a dent in the world [01:22:10] like that sort of Steve Jobs kind of thing. And the practice that you do open. [01:22:15] Yeah. Will be an interesting thing, right?

Kiran Shankla: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: Um, whether [01:22:20] whether we’re talking design or whether we’re talking patient journey. And [01:22:25] even though you’ve, you’ve made this picture of two places where you’re very happy. [01:22:30] I’m sure your own place would be slightly different. Yeah, exactly.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. A different journey [01:22:35] would be, you know, different completely just there. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But risk wise, you know, what’s the worst that [01:22:40] can happen if you go bankrupt?

Kiran Shankla: But, yeah, you get through it, don’t you?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:22:45] it’s very rare. You know, we do have dentists go bankrupt. It does happen. Yeah, [01:22:50] but rare. Rare, rare.

Kiran Shankla: I mean, I think generally as a dentist, we’re very fortunate. We’re in a good [01:22:55] we’re in a good profession. You know, people need us. Um, and you can’t say that about many professions. [01:23:00] You know, and then you’ve got the flexibility. You know, you can work. The less days. More days. You can go [01:23:05] away for long periods of time. I think there’s so many benefits of being a dentist, which [01:23:10] a lot of the time we just look at the negatives. You know, I’ve got friends who say, I’ll never tell my kids [01:23:15] to be a dentist. Yeah. You know, I just think, why is it is it that bad? Like, you know, have you [01:23:20] you talk to anyone else in any other professions and seeing how hard it is for them, you know, coming home at seven, 8:00 [01:23:25] at night, you know, five days a week, like, constantly on the computer. So I think there’s, [01:23:30] like, pros and cons in everything. So just look. Look at everything as a positive.

Payman Langroudi: I think nothing [01:23:35] worthwhile is easy, right?

Kiran Shankla: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, you’re right when you talk to friends. [01:23:40] Unless they were handed it down or something. Nothing worthwhile is [01:23:45] easy. You know, like people think. Oh, it’s easy to be a, I don’t [01:23:50] know, banker because they make so much money.

Kiran Shankla: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not easy to be a banker at [01:23:55] all.

Kiran Shankla: I know.

Payman Langroudi: Like, the pressure those guys are under and the early mornings and [01:24:00] late nights. Yeah, we think it’s pressure in a mod. There’s pressure in [01:24:05] losing millions, you know? Yeah. Things like that.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. Everyone everyone has their [01:24:10] own problems. Right? And the grass is always greener. Yeah. But. So the biggest thing that I learned from [01:24:15] Australia was the grass is not always greener. And that’s the biggest thing. What did you learn? [01:24:20] I was like actually just be content and happy with, you know, work hard. The good things will happen. But also [01:24:25] don’t compare, you know, just have a nice life, basically.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. I really, [01:24:30] really enjoyed.

Kiran Shankla: Oh thank.

Payman Langroudi: You. I like I like your outlook. It’s it’s very, [01:24:35] uh, simple and and effective.

Kiran Shankla: It’s working so [01:24:40] far.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks so much for coming.

Kiran Shankla: Oh, thank you so much.

Payman Langroudi: Really enjoyed that.

Kiran Shankla: Thank you. Good stuff.

[VOICE]: This [01:24:45] is Dental Leaders the podcast [01:24:50] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:24:55] hosts Payman Langroudi and [01:25:00] Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you [01:25:05] must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually [01:25:10] sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming [01:25:15] you got some value out of it.

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Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

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[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. [00:00:40] The podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:00:45] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Masa Bali Onto the [00:01:00] podcast. I get two different types of guests on this pod. The type [00:01:05] that, uh, you know, comes to me and says, I want to be on. And then the type [00:01:10] that, you know, I go to them and say, hey, you got to be on. And Massa was one of the ones that was [00:01:15] very, very, very difficult to persuade to come on. And, uh, you said to me, my story is [00:01:20] not special. And I said to you, your story is the most common story in dentistry, [00:01:25] right? And apart from the fact that every single story is special, um, [00:01:30] but a story of qualifying first as an [00:01:35] engineer in dental materials, then studying abroad, then [00:01:40] working as an associate, and then finally starting or buying your own [00:01:45] practice, juggling all that with kids. Um, those are stories [00:01:50] that need to be told, um, so that most of us go through these sort of [00:01:55] juggles. I remember we started the company, I got married and [00:02:00] we moved house in the same year. And you know, it’s a struggle. It can be a struggle. So [00:02:05] lovely to have you.

Mahsa Balaie: Thank you so much. Thank you. It can be a struggle. I feel like sometimes [00:02:10] you’re so deep in it. Yeah. You’re like, just got to make it to the end.

Payman Langroudi: You’re running? [00:02:15]

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah. Yeah. You’re like, I’ll see the finish line at some point.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mahsa Balaie: Um, [00:02:20] I actually ran my first half marathon two weeks ago. Oh, okay. Randomly didn’t train for it. My [00:02:25] PT couldn’t do it. And just having this part of the conversation, it’s [00:02:30] quite symbolic, actually, because, um, I ran, like, half my mouth is 13.1 [00:02:35] miles, right? And I never look at the time on my watch. I never look at the distance because [00:02:40] it bores me like, oh my God, I’ve got another five kilometres left. So, um, [00:02:45] all I knew from the route was that start and finish were pretty much [00:02:50] parallel. I didn’t realise they weren’t the same point. So my husband calls me, um, [00:02:55] because he brought the kids. It was in Brighton and he was like, hi, we’re here. And I was like, well, you’re late. He’s [00:03:00] like, I’m on my headphones. Where are you? I was like, well, I’m at the finish line. [00:03:05] He’s like, that’s an hour and a half. I was like, yeah, exactly. You’re [00:03:10] welcome. You know, I did great. Little did I know that actually, [00:03:15] you had to do this massive, um, three mile loop to [00:03:20] the finish line. Um, and the reason I talk about it is because I [00:03:25] was running and I was like, well, you come this far. I saw ten miles, and I was like, I can’t do it.

Mahsa Balaie: I [00:03:30] cannot do it. My legs started to seize up. Mentally, I hit a wall. Um, and I was [00:03:35] like, you know what I can say, I tried. If I bow out now, that’s okay. I tried, and [00:03:40] I was going to bow out and, um, I don’t know what just kept going. [00:03:45] I walked for a little bit, and then I was like, you know what? You’re walking. You might as well run. Um. [00:03:50] And I kept running, kept running, kept running. And then I just saw the finish line and I [00:03:55] sprinted for it. Payman! I was like, you’ve done it, you’ve done it. Like get to it. [00:04:00] Also, your husband thought you were hour and a half. You’re like half an hour late. Go. They’re waiting for you. And [00:04:05] it’s quite symbolic because when you said, you know, you bought your did your business, got married, bought a house [00:04:10] all in the same year, at some point you see that finish line and then you [00:04:15] start to like breathe and you’re like, okay, let’s just get it done really quickly. Let’s just get it over and done with. And I think, [00:04:20] um, not all of but some of my life has been that way. I’m just so [00:04:25] deep in it.

Payman Langroudi: On the fitness front. Yeah. How long [00:04:30] have you been doing that?

Mahsa Balaie: I am I don’t know if a lot of people can say this, [00:04:35] but I am about to hit my one year anniversary of of Just [00:04:40] Fitness. A whole new, yeah, whole new life. I don’t recognise me from [00:04:45] this time last year.

Payman Langroudi: Just one year.

Mahsa Balaie: One.

Payman Langroudi: Year.

Mahsa Balaie: One year. Um, I [00:04:50] think if anyone who does know me is listening to the They’re like, oh, here she goes again. It’s so [00:04:55] boring. Um, but it’s a really big achievement for me. Um, I lost like, 40 [00:05:00] kilos.

Payman Langroudi: 40.

Mahsa Balaie: Um. Um, and it’s [00:05:05] been life changing, and it’s one of those things where I have just [00:05:10] not looked at the watch, not looked at the distance. I’ve just kept going. And I’m like, at some point I’m going to get to where I need [00:05:15] to be. And I have um, and I [00:05:20] think actually this podcast is great for that because in the run up to it, it’s [00:05:25] given me so much time to reflect. I never do. I just get on with it. But [00:05:30] I practice, get on with it, have kids, get on with it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mahsa Balaie: But it’s really nice [00:05:35] to have been able to spend the last few weeks just reflecting. What am I going to talk about? Um, [00:05:40] what significance does it have? And um, for the first time actually [00:05:45] ever, I’ve sat down and be like, do you know what? Like you did it. Well done. You [00:05:50] know, pat on your back.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what was the trigger?

Mahsa Balaie: Oh, God. Um, [00:05:55] so I had my son, um, end of Covid, put on a load of weight [00:06:00] there who didn’t in Covid. It was barbecues and alcohol.

Payman Langroudi: Lovely weather, wasn’t it?

Mahsa Balaie: I remember [00:06:05] my husband, so he was working from home and I was triaging. So at the time, obviously [00:06:10] I was an associate, I was triaging, I was at work. I was like, hi, what are you up to this guy? He [00:06:15] had run an Ethernet cable from our living room all the way through our dining room, through our kitchen and our conservatory, [00:06:20] into the garden, set up the pool. We had [00:06:25] a blow up pool like a 12 foot pool. And he’s put the mouse. I hope none of his people [00:06:30] are listening to this. Well, he’s left that job now anyway. He’s put the mouse on the enter button to show he’s online, and he’s [00:06:35] like having a beer in the pool.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mahsa Balaie: I was like, but we were doing that tonight [00:06:40] with our neighbours who we were bubbling with anyway. So, um, I had my [00:06:45] son and then, um, I had my daughter. Um, [00:06:50] and she was about six. I’m going to say [00:06:55] about two weeks old. Um, and I just, I started having I thought it was [00:07:00] a panic attack. I then thought it was a heart attack. And I just remember thinking, [00:07:05] what’s happening to me? Like, is this it? My daughter’s a few weeks old. I’m breastfeeding. What [00:07:10] am I what are we going to do? So my head is hanging out the bathroom window and I’m like, I need air, [00:07:15] I can’t breathe. Anyway, then it passes and I’m like, what just happened? [00:07:20] Turns out I had a hot gallbladder, but they couldn’t [00:07:25] operate because it was so hot. So I don’t know how [00:07:30] it works, but it can be so much inflamed and infected. But if it goes over that, you have [00:07:35] to wait. So we waited. Um, and then when my daughter was seven months old, I [00:07:40] had to go in for surgery. And I go to the pre-op and they’re like, can you just [00:07:45] stand on the scales? We need to take your BMI. And I looked at the scales, I was like, I’m so sorry. [00:07:50] Um, I think there’s something wrong. I think they’re broken. She was like, okay, no problem. Jump off and jump back [00:07:55] on. It went up and I was like, what? What? When did I [00:08:00] weigh that much? So then I went into that surgery, came [00:08:05] out and something just clicked for me. I was like, I can’t live like this. Um, [00:08:10] I have two young children. I have a business, you know, um, my husband, [00:08:15] if he takes another wife, I’ll be livid. Right. I need to live.

Payman Langroudi: Had [00:08:20] you put the weight on because of the pregnancies.

Mahsa Balaie: I mean, I’ve always been a little bit bigger. Um, [00:08:25] I’ve. I can honestly say I’ve never been skinny. Um, thanks, dad, for that, [00:08:30] actually. Yeah. Anyway, Iranian genes. Um, and [00:08:35] so then just progressively, over time, I started to put on weight. Um, [00:08:40] and then you, like, get into a relationship and you put on weight there and then, um, Covid [00:08:45] and, you know, x, y, XYZ. Then I hit Max when I had my son. [00:08:50] Um, then I never really lost the weight. And then when I got pregnant with my [00:08:55] daughter, I was like, look at me. I’m not putting on any weight. Turns out, like, I was at my max. Like I couldn’t possibly put on any more weight. [00:09:00] Um, so just over those maybe five, six years, it sort of spiralled [00:09:05] out of control. Um, and then I think moving because we were in Portsmouth, [00:09:10] um, I had my associate job in Portsmouth. Um, and when we moved to East Sussex, there [00:09:15] was no just eat, there was no delivery. There was no UberEats. And suddenly [00:09:20] we were having to like meal prep and meal plan and that made a massive difference. Um. [00:09:25]

Payman Langroudi: So what do you do? What was like, did you make a plan to.

Mahsa Balaie: No, I we were at Kids Swim one [00:09:30] Saturday at our local gym, which we had been paying for for two and a half years and [00:09:35] never used apart from a Saturday afternoon swim. And, um, I was just looking at the board. [00:09:40] I was post op. I was actually like five days post-op from my gallbladder. Um, [00:09:45] and I started looking on the board and I saw this, um, business card [00:09:50] for a TT. Honestly, I just liked how it looked. I was like, I’m going to go to her because I like how [00:09:55] it looks. Um, and she was there and she was like, you’re right. I was like, is this yours? And [00:10:00] she goes, yeah. And I was like, look, I need to make a change. Can you help me? Turns out, you know, when like, I’m a [00:10:05] massive believer, I’m not terribly religious, spiritual. And I really believe [00:10:10] in, like, stars aligning. And I was just in the right place at the right time. I was meant to meet her, and [00:10:15] I was like, I need to make a change. Like, come on, you know, let’s try. And I was like, can we start tomorrow? [00:10:20] She was like, you’re five days post op. Can we get some clearance from your doctor? I was like, they’ve discharged me, but [00:10:25] I’m willing to give you two weeks. So two weeks to the day after my surgery. [00:10:30] So I had my surgery on the 14th of March. My first PT session was 29th of March. [00:10:35] And it just it just something clicked and I think [00:10:40] I could have, um, tried to start this journey [00:10:45] a year ago. Two years ago? I don’t know, um, but I don’t think [00:10:50] my body was ready. I don’t think my mind was ready. Um, because as soon as I started dropped [00:10:55] off.

Payman Langroudi: So what do you do? Did you go to the gym every day or.

Mahsa Balaie: Um. So [00:11:00] I think when you’re a parent, especially as a mum, you’re like, oh, are they going to survive? [00:11:05] You know, they’re going to survive without me. So it was really hard. I told myself 2 to 3 days a week [00:11:10] is my minimum, so I’d have two days a week, PT, um, and then one day a week I’d [00:11:15] go by myself. And then that just crept up because I realised that the practice took over [00:11:20] a lot of my, like, mental stability. Um, [00:11:25] and then I’d be at the gym, I’d put my headphones on, and the world was just here [00:11:30] and I could just focus on me. That was an hour for me. So [00:11:35] I became a bit addicted to it. Um, and I was like, I just need some me time, you know? It made me a better person. It made me [00:11:40] nicer to be around. Um, so, um, I started going sort of four days [00:11:45] a week, and then I’d like creep up to 5 or 6, then I’d join a run club. And then my husband was like, we need [00:11:50] to have a chat because I can’t do this every morning with the kids. So, um, [00:11:55] yeah, like I’ve toned it down. But at first I was there all the time because I saw [00:12:00] something that was giving me results, and I just wanted to go back and go back more. And I felt good, and and I [00:12:05] was, you know, um, so definitely six days a week was [00:12:10] not sustainable. Um, but, yeah, toning it down. [00:12:15]

Payman Langroudi: And you changed your diet in a big way.

Mahsa Balaie: Massively, massively. I’m Iranian. I was brought [00:12:20] up on rice and lamb and, you know, um, okay, fine. We swapped out, [00:12:25] um, full fat meat oil for olive oil, but still, [00:12:30] um, and the one thing I said to my PT was, I, I’m not making two meals a day, like, [00:12:35] I’m not making one meal for me, one meal for my family. Um, but then slowly but surely, [00:12:40] I saw, um, I saw a difference. So I was like, okay, maybe I won’t have as [00:12:45] much rice. Maybe I won’t have that bit of tadig, you know? Um, and then I started [00:12:50] making two meals. It just happened. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But were [00:12:55] you, like, strict as hell?

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah. Really strict.

Payman Langroudi: So strict. That trait of [00:13:00] of making a decision and then going all in on it. Some people [00:13:05] have that right. And I don’t know whether it’s a strength or a weakness. Right. Because sometimes when you [00:13:10] know you’re that cat, you can let yourself go a little bit in whichever area [00:13:15] we’re talking about. And then because you know that once you click into the new [00:13:20] way, you’re sort of obsessively do that. Were you always like [00:13:25] this or.

Mahsa Balaie: Like, um, you know what I said at the beginning about how this has given me time to reflect? I [00:13:30] would never have said so before, but I look back on everything that I’ve done. I’m like, it’s 100% UMass. [00:13:35] You know? That’s exactly me. I start something, take a deep breath, jump in, [00:13:40] and then I’m like, at one point I’ll float, you know, all in or in. [00:13:45] Um, and it’s a very similar story with like, [00:13:50] engineering. Um, that was I didn’t, so I got into [00:13:55] dentistry. I then didn’t make the grade. So I was like, my dad was like, why don’t [00:14:00] you just defer every year, redo your A-levels, um, or A2 at the time and [00:14:05] reapply. And I was like, no, this was my plan. A-levels, university. He was [00:14:10] like, okay, but do.

Payman Langroudi: You regret that decision? Because, you know, that’s very good advice that he gave [00:14:15] you. But it’s fantastic when you’re in it, you kind of feel like you’re going to be behind your [00:14:20] class or something. It’s almost a stigma.

Mahsa Balaie: I think at 18 years old, you’re sort of like, [00:14:25] I don’t want to be the 19 year old. Yeah, right.

Payman Langroudi: But now, on reflection, that one year would have made no [00:14:30] difference at all, right?

Mahsa Balaie: No, it wouldn’t make any difference at all. I feel like it would have changed my trajectory. [00:14:35] The trajectory of my life. Massively. Um, and there’s pros and cons to that. [00:14:40] So what I said at the beginning about sort of being spiritual and, and [00:14:45] believing in the stars aligning, I would never have met my husband. I if I hadn’t [00:14:50] met my husband, I wouldn’t have been.

Payman Langroudi: My life would have been completely different.

Mahsa Balaie: I wouldn’t have gone to Spain. And genuinely, [00:14:55] you can meet me at any point in my life. And I will tell you that Spain was the best time of my life. [00:15:00] It doesn’t matter, you know, I’ve had kids, I love them, they’re the best thing that happened. But [00:15:05] Spain was the best time of my life. And it’s not because I partied all the time. Or. And if, you [00:15:10] know, if you meet anybody that I studied with or around, I was heading [00:15:15] back. I had a full time job while I was studying. Really? Yeah. Doing what? Selling shoes, teaching English. [00:15:20] Um.

Payman Langroudi: Did you have to learn Spanish at the same time? [00:15:25]

Mahsa Balaie: So, um, I don’t know if you want to do this chronologically, but I’ll dip in and dip out. [00:15:30] So when I finished, um, engineering, um, I was going [00:15:35] to study dentistry because that was always the plan, always, always the plan. And you could have asked me when I was six years old. [00:15:40] In fact, that’s when I first decided, um, so anyway, I was [00:15:45] like, you know what? Um, I’m going to defer a year. Then it didn’t matter [00:15:50] to me, did it? I could have deferred a year when I was 18, chose not to, but I was like, do you know what I’ve studied? [00:15:55] Um, engineering. You can take a year out and then I’m going to go to dentistry. Um, and my parents [00:16:00] have a house in Spain. Um, and I was, um, it [00:16:05] wasn’t a good time for me. I was in a really bad mental state, [00:16:10] and I went to my doctor and my GP, and he was like, you need to make [00:16:15] a change. You either move out of your family home or [00:16:20] I put you on these antidepressants. And I was like, it’s a no to the pills. I’ve always been that way. [00:16:25] I’m not taking pills. No judgement to anyone who does. It was not [00:16:30] for me. Um, so I went home and I was like, I’ve booked a ticket to Spain.

Mahsa Balaie: My [00:16:35] mom was like, cool, when are you coming back? I was like, I’m not. And my dad was like, what? I [00:16:40] was like, just give me the keys to the house. I need to go. I don’t know when I’m coming back. I haven’t got a return [00:16:45] flight. Um, anyway, so I went out to Spain, um, [00:16:50] like a week later, got there, and suddenly I [00:16:55] was fine. I was mentally fine. Like, I woke up in the morning. I was like, cool, what are we doing today? So, [00:17:00] um, I wrote up a CV and I went to a few dental practices. [00:17:05] Um, and I was like, do you know what? I’m not going back. I feel so good. I’m not going back. Um, and [00:17:10] I stumbled across this practice. Um, walked in. I was like, can I assist [00:17:15] for you? Um, and she’s one of my closest friends to this day. I [00:17:20] consider her one of my biggest inspirations. She’s a mentor to me. She’s [00:17:25] incredible. Um, and she was like, I’ll take you on. But [00:17:30] there’s one condition. I was like, what is it? She’s like, not a word of English. This is Alicante. Like [00:17:35] we have a lot of English clients. Um, it’s not quite Benidorm. It’s a little town in [00:17:40] Alicante. And I think now I know, and I sort of came to learn. [00:17:45]

Mahsa Balaie: A lot of her patients were English, but she was like, not a word of English. You will learn Spanish. [00:17:50] It’s like, okay, um, and we come back to if I’m [00:17:55] in, I’m all in. I changed my phone to Spanish. I put my TV in Spanish, my laptop, everything [00:18:00] was in Spanish. I would, um, listen to Spanish music. I’d walk from my house [00:18:05] to the practice, and I’d read everything that I could see in Spanish. Then [00:18:10] I’d get to work, and I made so many mistakes. But there was so patient with me. Um, and in four months [00:18:15] I learned it, and my dad came to visit me. He didn’t speak to me for six weeks after I left. And then he [00:18:20] was like, well, I’m coming to see you super Middle Eastern. Well, I’m coming to see you. I was like, cool. And [00:18:25] then he saw that I could really communicate and he was like, sat me down and he was like, are [00:18:30] you sure you want to come back to England for dentistry? I was like, yeah, you know, that’s that’s the [00:18:35] plan. He was like, but isn’t it a waste? Um. Sorry. [00:18:40] That [00:18:45] was quite pivotal. Um, because my dad, who was like, you’re not leaving the country. [00:18:50] You’re not doing it. Suddenly he was like, let me help you.

Mahsa Balaie: And [00:18:55] it was a really pivotal moment, because if it wasn’t for him, I probably would have, you know, I would have applied [00:19:00] back for dentistry. I probably would have not got in again or. Um, so I [00:19:05] just started applying to dental schools out there. I was like, dad, it’s a lot of money. He was like, I’ll pay for it. This is your dream. [00:19:10] So then I applied, um, didn’t know what I was [00:19:15] doing. They they have their own sort of Ucas system, which I had no idea about. I just wrote a load of letters to, like, [00:19:20] Granada universities. I was like, well, they’re not writing back. Um, and [00:19:25] then I did all my validation of my, um, engineering degree, GCSE, [00:19:30] A-levels etc. and applied to the University of Valencia and at the [00:19:35] time they had a part time course which lasted a bit longer, but [00:19:40] it meant I could commute, stay there for a few days, do it, come back and keep [00:19:45] my job. Because I loved my job. I loved nursing there. Okay, yeah, absolutely loved [00:19:50] it. And I was learning so much. Um, but then they closed that. I went to the interview [00:19:55] and they were like, yeah, we’d love to have you on the course full time. Um, [00:20:00] and that’s what I did. Just went with it all in.

Payman Langroudi: So before we go into the [00:20:05] course, what was it about home that meant [00:20:10] that you had to run away?

Mahsa Balaie: Um, I suppose it was running away, wasn’t it? Um, [00:20:15] I’d done a degree that wasn’t necessarily fulfilling for me. Yeah, [00:20:20] um, I didn’t like it. I barely scraped through. Um, I [00:20:25] had I didn’t have this sort of fantastic, [00:20:30] constant group of friends. Um, because my [00:20:35] parents growing up were quite strict. So, um, you know, I was like, can I go out clubbing or whatever? They’re like, no, [00:20:40] are you stupid? You’re Iranian. You can’t do that. And so then, [00:20:45] um, no, but it was. I worked at House of Fraser [00:20:50] in the Home Department after I graduated because I was like, I don’t want a job in dental materials. [00:20:55] I don’t want to do dental materials. So let me get a summer job. Went to House of Fraser, [00:21:00] and I think everyone has that really horrible boss, one [00:21:05] really horrible boss that tips you over the edge. Um, and I wasn’t like [00:21:10] in, in the, like, fashion department or even in the cafe. I was [00:21:15] in the home department. It was boring as hell. And one day she was like, oh, Martha, [00:21:20] um, I need you to go and, like, stock the fridge or something. [00:21:25] And it’s like this massive human size. It’s about the size of this room. And I was [00:21:30] like, what the hell am I doing with my life? This is not what I want. Um, [00:21:35] and that’s, I think, what tipped me over the edge. I was like, there’s got to be more to life than this. [00:21:40] There has got to be. And and, you know, I think about it now, I’m like, you knew that was short term, but my [00:21:45] short term even has to make me happy. My every day to day. I’m [00:21:50] a massive believer in you’re not um, you’re not going to be 100% [00:21:55] happy all the time. But even if you’re, like lower than 60% happy for me, [00:22:00] that’s not okay. And I yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the materials [00:22:05] degree itself, was it, as you would imagine it. I mean, how [00:22:10] what was it?

Mahsa Balaie: I don’t know what I imagined about it all. I knew that through clearing they were telling me, if [00:22:15] you get a certain percentage by year two, we can transfer you directly [00:22:20] onto dentistry. I was like, done deal.

Payman Langroudi: And then has it been useful? [00:22:25]

Mahsa Balaie: It saved me some money when I was doing dentistry, because I’d done certain [00:22:30] modules that they were also going to do, so they validated it.

Payman Langroudi: No. But like you’re you’re sort of understanding [00:22:35] of dental materials that it’s not useful as a dentist.

Mahsa Balaie: Um, yes. [00:22:40]

Payman Langroudi: Maybe you could help me a little bit with my products. I mean, look, I.

Mahsa Balaie: Was so uninterested [00:22:45] in it.

Payman Langroudi: You weren’t all.

Mahsa Balaie: In on it? No. I then had to go back and relearn it [00:22:50] all when I wanted to understand something. And there’s a really, really big difference [00:22:55] between who I was as a student in engineering and who I was in dentistry, because [00:23:00] in engineering I was rubbish. You know, [00:23:05] I was living for the party life. Um, and [00:23:10] I would like, turn up not or I didn’t really know how to study. I didn’t [00:23:15] know how to sit this exam, um, and I, and I now know that that’s because I just wasn’t [00:23:20] passionate about it. I didn’t care for it. I didn’t love it. And then I got to dentistry [00:23:25] and. I can’t say I barely studied [00:23:30] because that’s not true. I spent every waking hour, um, you know, going through [00:23:35] lecture notes and taking notes and lecture, going home, rewriting them and rereading them. And then my, you [00:23:40] know, bedtime reading between jobs was, you know, um, reading [00:23:45] up and this, that and the other and, and if I ever got anything less than like out then it was out of [00:23:50] ten. If I got anything less than 9.5, I was like, why are you failing? Um, but [00:23:55] that studying came naturally to me because I loved [00:24:00] it so much. Like, I it wasn’t an effort for God to sit down and learn about blah, blah, blah. I [00:24:05] loved it, absolutely loved it. And I think if my kids ever came to me [00:24:10] and said, you know, what do I do? My dad, when I was younger, he was like, [00:24:15] I don’t care if you end up being a bin man, just do something you love. Um, [00:24:20] he always obviously advocated and encouraged that we study something so we have something to fall back [00:24:25] on. I don’t think that’s life anymore. I don’t think you necessarily need to go [00:24:30] to university. Um, but I think if my kids ever said to me, what do I do? I’d just do something [00:24:35] you love. Doesn’t matter what it is.

Payman Langroudi: It sounds great. It sounds great. But the the reality [00:24:40] sometimes, I don’t know, in my case, anyway. The friends of mine. The reality sometimes is [00:24:45] the kid says, I don’t know what I love. So then the kids looking to you again? Yeah. [00:24:50] And even though I wanted to be this touchy feely dad who says, hey, go write a [00:24:55] screenplay. In the end, you tend to fall back into, hey, do something professional. [00:25:00] You know, like it’s.

Mahsa Balaie: You’ve got more security that way, don’t you? You know that you’ll have a [00:25:05] job at the end. You know what that job will be? Um, and as a parent, that [00:25:10] sort of. Gives you a bit of peace. As [00:25:15] a parent, you’re like, okay, you know, they’ll be okay. Yeah. And I would love to be [00:25:20] that touchy feely person, but I spend every day I’m like, do you want to be a dentist? Like mommy to.

Payman Langroudi: My.

Mahsa Balaie: Son? He’s like, [00:25:25] yeah, sure. Why not? Um, and I’m really hoping that’s what he loves to do. But if [00:25:30] it isn’t, that’s okay. I’m okay with it. My parents never pushed us. We are all medical professionals. [00:25:35] My sister’s a GP. My brother’s a pharmacist. I’m a dentist. Um, [00:25:40] but I don’t think they ever planned.

Payman Langroudi: Your parents in medical.

Mahsa Balaie: No, no, my mum was, um. She’s retired [00:25:45] now. Um, she was like a nurse in a nursing home. And my dad is a [00:25:50] civil engineer. Retired civil engineer. So, um, you know, we are the first people, [00:25:55] I think. Yeah, the first people in our family, um, to be doctors [00:26:00] and medical professionals. And they didn’t plan it that way. They just said study something. Mhm. Um. [00:26:05]

Payman Langroudi: And you’re the middle, um middle child. [00:26:10] So then tell me about the course in, in Valencia, because there’s quite a lot of English, [00:26:15] um, you know, students, foreign students in in Valencia. Now, was [00:26:20] it the same then?

Mahsa Balaie: No, I was the only one.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Mahsa Balaie: So I, um.

Payman Langroudi: Which year was it?

Mahsa Balaie: So I [00:26:25] started 2011.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, okay.

Mahsa Balaie: The English course started in 2012.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Mahsa Balaie: So I [00:26:30] actually, um, my cohort was the Spanish lot. I just integrated, and because I could speak Spanish, they [00:26:35] were like, yeah, why not? And at the end of my first year, they were like, look, we’re introducing an English course. Do you [00:26:40] want to switch? I was like, why would I do that? I love, I loved learning it in Spanish. And I think it’s because [00:26:45] so, so in that, um, you know, first year is all anatomy and all the rest of it, and it’s all Latin [00:26:50] anyway. Yeah. And I just found that because I could speak Spanish, I could remember that a bit [00:26:55] better. Mhm. Um, but then I loved my Spanish. Um, well there’s a lot of Spanish [00:27:00] and Italians actually in the Spanish course. I loved my colleagues and, and I didn’t, I became [00:27:05] friends with the people in the English courses in the lower years. Um, but it was never [00:27:10] appealing to me to move over to the English course. It’s weird. Really weird, because actually, the people [00:27:15] in the English course and the English cohorts. They had to learn to speak Spanish for clinics anyway. Yeah, yeah. [00:27:20] So.

Payman Langroudi: So did you find the course? Did you take to it easily, [00:27:25] or did you find it hard?

Mahsa Balaie: No, I didn’t find it hard at all. And I was. [00:27:30]

Payman Langroudi: Working in the practice as well. Kind of gives you an insight.

Mahsa Balaie: This is what brings me back to why. That the [00:27:35] dentist who took me on to be a dental nurse is my mentor. Every time they would [00:27:40] introduce something that was new at university, I’d be like, I’ve seen Laura do that, you know. Oh, I [00:27:45] remember how she used to do that. This is how she used to put a matrix band on. This is how she used to mix alginate. Blah blah [00:27:50] blah. And so I honestly, I have so much to [00:27:55] owe to her because she was so concise in everything. And she was she’s a natural born teacher. [00:28:00] So she knew that my intention was dentistry. Her husband didn’t like it very much. So he was like, [00:28:05] oh, why don’t you just stay here earning peanuts? Um, but she knew that my intention was [00:28:10] dentistry. And so she made it her mission to make sure that I was going to go to university and be okay. [00:28:15] And I feel like part of the reason I was okay is because of that. She gave me all her notes. You know, she she’d [00:28:20] graduated from Venezuela, she’d come over to Spain, and she’d then had to validate her [00:28:25] degree. So she had to do an extra three years in, I think she did the University of Granada. She she had a note. [00:28:30] She gave all those to me. And so when it did come to that, I didn’t [00:28:35] find it difficult. Um, I found it stressful. I found, like it was a [00:28:40] lot of information, but I just felt like, um, my brain retained it better. [00:28:45] And there’s something to be said for the American system where they have to do a [00:28:50] pre-med.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mahsa Balaie: And then go on to do medicine or dentistry. Um, [00:28:55] and a yes, 100%. You have to be passionate about it. But secondly, I feel like my brain [00:29:00] was that little bit more developed, a little bit more mature. Yeah. Um, and [00:29:05] for me, it worked perfectly because.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:29:10] so did you consider staying?

Mahsa Balaie: Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: Do you consider say staying in Spain. Yeah. [00:29:15] Yeah. As a dentist.

Mahsa Balaie: I put off my GDC registration for so long. That’s why I stayed there for a year. [00:29:20] My mom was like, have you applied? I’m like, no. Oh, yeah. I sent off my forms. Um, but I haven’t [00:29:25] heard it. I hadn’t sent off my forms. They were in my bag. And then, um, Brexit happened. [00:29:30] So they all voted Brexit. And then my mum was like, this is getting serious now. We don’t know what’s going to happen. My mum’s the [00:29:35] sort of person who, if they say Brexit has been voted, she’s like come home [00:29:40] now. It took three years to enforce right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mahsa Balaie: Um, so [00:29:45] actually one thing that put me off coming to England was, um, [00:29:50] I sat the, I set, I sat the exam, I went to the interview [00:29:55] for, um, to get a place on a PhD at the time. And [00:30:00] I ranked something really silly, like 400 in the [00:30:05] country. And for me, that was a massive achievement. Um, because I was like, I’ve come from Spain, [00:30:10] why have I not got a place. Um, so I wrote to them. Didn’t hear anything. [00:30:15] I was like, look, I’ve ranked really well. And it turns out that they obviously give places to the UK [00:30:20] students first. And then if there’s any spaces left, they then take that in [00:30:25] rank order. I didn’t get a place. Um, so that really put me off. I was like, if you [00:30:30] don’t want me, I don’t want you. Um, so I [00:30:35] had a colleague, um, who had a practice from before over there. It works a bit [00:30:40] differently. So, um, you can own a Dental lab and own a dental practice at the same time. So [00:30:45] this guy owned a dental lab, one of my very good friends, and he was like, do you want to come work [00:30:50] for me? Um, at his practice, I was like, yeah, sure. Why not? Great. By the beach? Why not? [00:30:55]

Payman Langroudi: Um, in Valencia?

Mahsa Balaie: No. Alicante. So, um, between Alicante, [00:31:00] Valencia, like Moreira sort of area. Um, so [00:31:05] I was working there and I loved it. I, um. Oh, sorry. Um, [00:31:10] And I was not earning a lot of money. I was clocking in sort of 8 [00:31:15] a.m., clocking out at 9 p.m. but I loved it. And my mom was like, [00:31:20] are you coming home anytime? Like are think about it. Um, but then I was forced to. [00:31:25] So then I had to hand in my GDC registration form.

Payman Langroudi: Because of Brexit.

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah. [00:31:30]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, in case it didn’t work anymore.

Mahsa Balaie: But, you know, I think so. I was 28 when I graduated. [00:31:35] Um, when I qualified from dentistry, I was 28 years old. And, um, I [00:31:40] always knew that I wanted to sort of get married and have children. And, you know, as a woman, [00:31:45] time starts to tick and you’re like, oh, my goodness, I haven’t even met anyone yet. Yeah. Um, [00:31:50] so I was like, right, I’m earning this much from [00:31:55] being the only dentist. And it wasn’t very much. It was enough to sort of pay my rent, pay for my car, [00:32:00] pay for like, nice food. Few few meals out, but not enough to save. [00:32:05] I was like, what are you going to do? You don’t even at that time it was important. You don’t even own a [00:32:10] property. You don’t own a car. What are you going to do? You can’t do that here. And that was a pushing factor as [00:32:15] well. Um, for me.

Payman Langroudi: And so your reflection on being a dentist [00:32:20] in Spain or being a dentist in the UK, what comes to [00:32:25] mind? Like, what are the main differences?

Mahsa Balaie: Regulations like regulatory [00:32:30] bodies. Um, there’s a lot more sort of rules and regulations that you have to follow [00:32:35] here, obviously. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Is it obvious?

Mahsa Balaie: Well, yeah. I mean, [00:32:40] over here, you’ve got the GDC, you’ve got the CQC, you’ve got NHS. If you’ve got an NHS contract.

Payman Langroudi: Then they have equivalents. [00:32:45]

Mahsa Balaie: No, they like GDC and that’s it. Indemnity. That’s it.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:32:50] what about the patients? They’re more respectful.

Mahsa Balaie: Er, yeah. Massively [00:32:55] more respectful. And you know.

Payman Langroudi: That fear of being sued isn’t there so much.

Mahsa Balaie: It’s [00:33:00] not. It really isn’t. I mean, if I was to go back and look on my go back and look at my notes, [00:33:05] it’s only because I’m a very comprehensive person that my notes are so detailed, but, [00:33:10] you know, sort of like the olden days GRC come [00:33:15] back again six weeks. I don’t know. Um, but, um, you’re [00:33:20] definitely not looking over your shoulder the whole time. Um, and if [00:33:25] they complain, you’re sort of like, okay, here’s your money back. I’ll [00:33:30] do it again for you. I won’t charge you. Um, but there’s definitely less [00:33:35] of a formal complaint culture.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and is there a state and a private [00:33:40] sector, or how does it work?

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. But the state is literally just the local [00:33:45] hospital or just one hospital in the city that does extractions on kids. That’s it. You [00:33:50] can’t get anything else. Um, on the state.

Payman Langroudi: The rest is private.

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah. The whole thing is private, [00:33:55] and they don’t really pay into insurances like the USA, for example. Um, [00:34:00] but, um, they all know, you know, they, they save towards, um, orthodontic treatment [00:34:05] for their kids. They know. And even though it’s private, they don’t sort of just go to the dentist [00:34:10] when they’ve got a problem. You’ve got six monthly patients, you know, um, [00:34:15] when you recommend something, they go for it. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So would you say the trust [00:34:20] is higher there between patient and dentist?

Mahsa Balaie: Not necessarily. I think [00:34:25] that’s very dentist dependent, you know. Um, I think that has a lot to do with the rapport [00:34:30] that you have with your patients and how you make them feel. And, you know, I could be the best [00:34:35] dentist of the world, but if I’m not exuding trust, [00:34:40] then they’re not gonna trust me. It doesn’t matter where I am in the world.

Payman Langroudi: True. So [00:34:45] you came back? Yeah. What do you do?

Mahsa Balaie: My sister, um, lives in [00:34:50] Hampshire. My sister lives in Hampshire. And, um, she [00:34:55] at that time had three kids. Yeah, three kids at the [00:35:00] time. She’s got four now and all. I knew I didn’t have anything that sort of. I don’t [00:35:05] have a boyfriend, don’t have a husband. Nothing. I was like, I could go anywhere in the country, let me be [00:35:10] near my nieces and nephew. So, um, I went towards Hampshire and [00:35:15] then I found a job in Portsmouth. Um, and they offered to mentor [00:35:20] me, um, because I had to do the PLB. So it’s, um, [00:35:25] like vocational training by equivalence. So I had a portfolio and all [00:35:30] the rest of it to get my performer number.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I.

Mahsa Balaie: See, um, and I loved [00:35:35] it there. And that’s where I stayed for like five years, actually, until I bought my practice. Um, and [00:35:40] it was just very plain sailing. I would sort of, um, I had an associate job, um, [00:35:45] there. And then I had another private associate job. Um, a little bit further out. I’d [00:35:50] go to work, I’d get up in the morning, go to the gym, um, go to work, come home, [00:35:55] have a nap, do it all again. You know, it was a very simple life. Um, [00:36:00] I miss it sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: Seaside again? Huh? Huh? Seaside again?

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah. Yeah, [00:36:05] yeah. Didn’t realise it. I mean, very different. Very different. Seaside. [00:36:10] Um. But, um, it was nice. I mean, you know, I reflect [00:36:15] back on it. I’m, like, not the nicest part of the world. Portsmouth. But it [00:36:20] served me, um.

Payman Langroudi: Portsmouth can be fun. Um, but, you know, I’m interested in in [00:36:25] in how easily you jump between Croydon, Portsmouth, [00:36:30] Spain, and now Tunbridge Wells. Like, a lot of people would have [00:36:35] stress and anxiety about moving around so much.

Mahsa Balaie: With an 11 month old.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:36:40] Yeah. You know, it doesn’t bother you as much as the next man.

Mahsa Balaie: Dive in. You’ll [00:36:45] float at some point. Yeah. If you know how to swim, you dive. And at some point you’ll [00:36:50] come up for air. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And just the just the basic stuff [00:36:55] of being away from friends and family or, I don’t know, not knowing where to get your [00:37:00] hair cut. This is a change. Changing location is stressful, isn’t it?

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah, [00:37:05] those are probably the more the things that stress me more. So I know that, [00:37:10] you know, for me, an hour and a half, two hour commute to my parent’s house is not much. I don’t mind [00:37:15] doing it, and I would never expect them to do it. I’ll go back every weekend. It’s not a problem. Um, you [00:37:20] know, my sister’s an hour and a half away. That’s cool. We can do that. I mean, at the time, she was 20 minutes away. [00:37:25] Um, yeah. I don’t I don’t know what to say about [00:37:30] that. I, you know, I just sort of get on with it. Some people say to me, oh my goodness, you studied [00:37:35] in Spanish. And then and then you did the whole of dentistry. I’m like, yeah, that’s what that [00:37:40] those are the cards I was dealt with.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mahsa Balaie: What do I do with them?

Payman Langroudi: Tell [00:37:45] me about the clinical journey. Like what kind of dentist were you and then what kind of dentist [00:37:50] are you? What kind of dentist do you want to be?

Mahsa Balaie: Um.

Payman Langroudi: General dentist, [00:37:55] right? Yeah. For instance, we met at Mini Smile Makeover. Yeah. So you’re not just the [00:38:00] general dentist doing general dentistry. You’re looking to get better and. Yeah. Composite [00:38:05] bonding. So tell me a bit about clinical journey. Where are you at?

Mahsa Balaie: Um, so when [00:38:10] I first. Where am I at now? Um, yeah, I’m definitely focusing on more, um, [00:38:15] aesthetically driven treatments. Um, and [00:38:20] perfection. So I’m really trying to just, um. [00:38:25] That perfection is a journey, right? You’re never perfect. Um, but I’m [00:38:30] definitely striving for perfection. Um, but I [00:38:35] would say that I’ve always been a perfectionist. So even if my clinical skills were a [00:38:40] little bit lower, say, at the beginning start point of my journey, I was still perfect [00:38:45] at being that little bit less perfect, right? I don’t know if that makes sense. Um, and [00:38:50] the start of my journey, it was actually quite it was actually quite difficult because you [00:38:55] go from being a fully private dentist in Spain to having all these really nice composites. And you say [00:39:00] to a patient, you need this, this. And they’re like, yeah, sure, no problem. Um, to being [00:39:05] an NHS dentist. And that’s quite hard actually. That’s really [00:39:10] hard.

Payman Langroudi: Um, learning the regulations.

Mahsa Balaie: Learning the regulations. I mean, you know, [00:39:15] in Hampshire they run this like ten day course. Um, and it’s like introduction [00:39:20] to NHS one, two, three, ten. Um, but [00:39:25] you really do just learn on the job and you have to make mistakes. And, um.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:39:30] from, from the perspective of volume of work, like how many patients a day were you seeing in Spain and then how [00:39:35] many patients in Spain, in the NHS.

Mahsa Balaie: Maybe like 12 [00:39:40] a day in Spain, 30 a day. It was quite a high. It was quite a big [00:39:45] NHS contract. And actually, um, I didn’t have PhD training. Yeah, I went [00:39:50] straight into it. So whilst I was waiting for my performer number, I was nursing at that same [00:39:55] practice. Tests. Um, and just to sort of a get a bit of money [00:40:00] in um, but b learn the whole shebang and um. [00:40:05] Day one 15th of May, 2017. Bam! In you go. And [00:40:10] I’m like, okay, what do I do now?

Payman Langroudi: So suddenly working quickly.

Mahsa Balaie: Working really fast. And I had fantastic [00:40:15] nurses. Yeah. Um, there’s two nurses, um, who spring [00:40:20] to mind on my first day. And they were like, don’t worry, we’ll do your notes for you. You just review them, [00:40:25] um, you know? Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mahsa Balaie: Go ahead. Um, this is how the system [00:40:30] works. And so they’d obviously worked in the practice for a long time, and they were [00:40:35] GS they were my guiding stars. Um, but, yeah, it [00:40:40] was high volume, fast. But then even then, I was [00:40:45] not, um, compromising my quality of care. And [00:40:50] you know.

Payman Langroudi: How.

Mahsa Balaie: I don’t know, I don’t [00:40:55] know.

Payman Langroudi: We’re using rubber dam.

Mahsa Balaie: Okay, maybe I did compromise. Okay, [00:41:00] yeah, but, like, the quality of my composites was [00:41:05] not terrible on the NHS.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I’m sure. I mean, it’s a whole skill [00:41:10] in itself, right? I mean, I don’t think I could pull it off. Yeah. I, you [00:41:15] know, it’s hard to do things quickly and.

Mahsa Balaie: Well, it really is.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And it’s like, what what aspect [00:41:20] of it do you give up? You know, obviously, you know, in private you can make the posterior [00:41:25] restoration look beautiful in NHS. You might say, well that’s not so important. Just functionally [00:41:30] I want it to be right for the sake of the argument. What I found the hardest about [00:41:35] I only did it in NHS, but what I found hardest about it was no time to talk. [00:41:40] Yeah. And when? When when all day [00:41:45] you’re drilling and filling, you come out of it sort of a bit. Oh I did, I used to come out of it [00:41:50] thinking I’m just this, like carpenter guy. Yeah. You know, whereas for [00:41:55] me, the biggest difference between private and NHS was the human interaction. [00:42:00] Right. And even though I was still a carpenter, but but I was having a few conversations.

Mahsa Balaie: In between.

Payman Langroudi: A few [00:42:05] conversations in between. And the other thing I hated was [00:42:10] the third party thing. You know, you’ve got you and your patient. There’s [00:42:15] a problem. Here’s the solution. Having this third party telling you what you can and can’t do. [00:42:20] Break my heart is to hate it. Yeah. So did you stay in a mixed practice all [00:42:25] that time until you bought your Tunbridge Wells? Yeah.

Mahsa Balaie: Really? Stayed in one practice. I had [00:42:30] another associate job, which I had to leave in Covid, and then I started another one. But [00:42:35] that whole my constant was that one mixed practice. And, um, from the [00:42:40] from the get go, I was mixed.

Payman Langroudi: So you were doing private items on these?

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah, yeah, I [00:42:45] was. Um, and I was hitting my udas, but I was also doing private. It was it was good. [00:42:50] It was a nice gig. Yeah, it was a nice gig. You know, I bought my car. I bought my house.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:42:55] saved up for your practice.

Mahsa Balaie: Saved up? Um, I mean, my husband helped a little bit with that, and, you [00:43:00] know, if he’s listening. Thank you. Um, but, you know, I, um.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you meet your husband in this journey? [00:43:05]

Mahsa Balaie: I’ve just at this random party in London.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, but at what point?

Mahsa Balaie: Oh. 2018.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:43:10] that was early on in the NHS.

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I actually told a white [00:43:15] lie because he was in Bristol, I was in Portsmouth, and he was like, where are you from? And [00:43:20] I’m like London. Not a lie. Technically not a lie. And then, [00:43:25] um, at one point he like, should we meet up? And I’m like, yeah, um, about that, he was like, what do you [00:43:30] mean you’re from Portsmouth? Um, but yeah. So we met in 2018, got [00:43:35] married 2019.

Payman Langroudi: That was quick.

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah. When I know, I know [00:43:40] all in all in at some point I’ll float.

Payman Langroudi: Were you in kind of a hurry? No [00:43:45] no.

Mahsa Balaie: No. When we met.

Payman Langroudi: Were you like. I mean tell [00:43:50] me this as a as a lady. Do you. Are you calculating? Oh, I want to [00:43:55] have a kid by this age.

Mahsa Balaie: I bought my car.

Payman Langroudi: My second kid by that age. Work [00:44:00] backwards. I got to meet someone now. No. There is an element of that. A [00:44:05] little bit.

Mahsa Balaie: A little bit. When I bought my car, it was my present to myself for my 30th birthday. [00:44:10] I was like, I’m going to go brand new. After that, we’ll buy second hand if we need to. And, [00:44:15] um, I went for like a little mini SUV, not SUV [00:44:20] like it was a four, 4×4.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mahsa Balaie: And everyone was like, why would you do that? You’re single. Like, [00:44:25] barely dating. Why would you do that? Like, because I want kids in the next five years. I don’t want to have to change my car. [00:44:30] Um, so I might as well buy something I like. And everyone was like, that is so weird to me. It [00:44:35] made sense. Um, so do I. Am I working backwards? No. But am [00:44:40] I sort of planning for the future? Yeah, that’s sort of part of my character.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s kind of the same thing, right? [00:44:45]

Mahsa Balaie: Not really. No, because I wasn’t like, I want to have kids by, I think when I met my when I met my [00:44:50] husband.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not a you don’t have to worry about it. I mean, we all, we all make calculations in [00:44:55] our lives as, as as as a as a lady. You have to. I mean, unless you’d frozen [00:45:00] some eggs or something.

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah. And, you know, I think if there was, if I was more informed about [00:45:05] it, that might have been a route I went down. I’ve sort of heard Rhona talk about it. Um, and I [00:45:10] massively respect her for that because she’s taken that step. And. Yeah, that’s planning in itself, isn’t it? [00:45:15] Um. I knew that, I knew I wanted [00:45:20] to get married and I knew I wanted children. That’s what I knew, and I knew that that’s something I wanted to work [00:45:25] towards. Now, I wasn’t just going to marry any Tom, Dick or Harry and just randomly.

Payman Langroudi: Have [00:45:30] kids.

Mahsa Balaie: But I knew it was part of my plan. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So the [00:45:35] new practice, the one you’re in now, I know [00:45:40] Tunbridge Wells a little. I wouldn’t think of it as particularly [00:45:45] cosmetically orientated town. Um, certainly there’s money there, you [00:45:50] know, people, people, people are quite well-to-do from my experience, from my time there. [00:45:55] I didn’t work there. Um, but older patients, is that right? [00:46:00]

Mahsa Balaie: Um, bit of everything. We’re starting to get more and more younger patients in, um. [00:46:05]

Payman Langroudi: By the way, old patients are the best.

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The best.

Mahsa Balaie: You know, we, um, we’re converting [00:46:10] over to patient plan. And, um, the majority of our people are old people. And I was thinking [00:46:15] the other day, not old, like over 60s. Right. And the other day, I sat down and I was like, [00:46:20] in like 20 years time, there’s going to be a drop.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [00:46:25] God.

Mahsa Balaie: We need to work, like, harder to get the younger people to join. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:46:30] Um, but yeah, like older people, um.

Payman Langroudi: The best patients. [00:46:35] I used to work in Folkestone. Yeah. And, um, they were all older, and they were so respectful. [00:46:40] Um, so, so trustworthy. Like. And they do [00:46:45] what you what you recommended, they wouldn’t bother with too much with.

Mahsa Balaie: Also quite [00:46:50] sceptical, also quite sceptical. I feel like the older you are, the more experience you [00:46:55] have and you might have been burnt a few times. I feel like I have to build a much [00:47:00] more stable relationship with my older patients. Um, but [00:47:05] once I’ve gained that trust, that’s it.

Payman Langroudi: Then they’re in.

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah, yeah, all [00:47:10] in. And I love that. You know, I’m the sort of dentist who, um, not just dentists. [00:47:15] I’m the sort of person who I remember. Birthdays, weddings. Um, [00:47:20] my my colleagues always say to me, oh, who’s [00:47:25] this person? Like? They’ll show me a bite ring. And I’m like, it’s that person. Or like a picture of their tooth. I’m like, oh, yeah, I remember that person. [00:47:30] I have that sort of ability. And I think the patients love that. Oh, you know how [00:47:35] I was. And I’m not the sort of person who will pop up. Note has daughter’s wedding and [00:47:40] I’ll remember it. I will genuinely.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, if you’re not that kind of person, it makes sense to put it. Yeah. Put [00:47:45] it on. Absolutely.

Mahsa Balaie: 100%, 100%. What I’m saying is I have not had to.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, actually. [00:47:50]

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s fantastic to put the pop up notes. It’s great to build that rapport.

Payman Langroudi: Really, really important. [00:47:55] I mean, like, I don’t know the the difference between a good dentist and [00:48:00] a great dentist is that, you know, that that rapport piece.

Mahsa Balaie: Absolutely. [00:48:05]

Payman Langroudi: But tell me about your process. What happens. I mean, have you got a scanner? Yeah. Do you scan [00:48:10] every patient?

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah. More or less. Yes. Yeah. [00:48:15] Intraoral photos. More than I need to get better at it. Where?

Payman Langroudi: In your [00:48:20] camera.

Mahsa Balaie: Or use.

Payman Langroudi: A normal.

Mahsa Balaie: Camera. Intraoral camera and a DSLR. Yeah. Um, [00:48:25] both.

Payman Langroudi: And do you run that sort of, um, people say the [00:48:30] sort of, uh, red, amber green sort of where you tell the patient [00:48:35] this is the stuff that needs doing. Now, this is the functional stuff, then this is the aesthetic stuff. [00:48:40] Sort of a staged treatment plan.

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I will always. I’m [00:48:45] not. I’m not out there to, like, rob anyone. I’m not out there to be, [00:48:50] um. You know, this fake. You need this. You have to have this. [00:48:55] This is necessary. I always say to my patients, we’re going to split this appointment. We’re going to split it. [00:49:00] And what needs to be done under my recommendation. And if we had a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, this [00:49:05] is what we could do. And I always, always take them through their bitewings, [00:49:10] their pa, their photos. They. My objective is that this patient is fully [00:49:15] in control of their treatment plan. And so there’s never a question of but why are we doing this? Doesn’t [00:49:20] matter if there is. I will explain it again. Um, and I think my patients massively appreciate [00:49:25] that. They’re like, I don’t need to get it done, but I understand why she’s asking me to get it done. You know, um, [00:49:30] like replacement of amalgams. I’ll go through it. I’ll go through it. I’ll show the photos. Like, can you see that little hairline fracture [00:49:35] there? Can you see this void here? This is why I’d recommend it. Is it essential? You know, are you going to be in [00:49:40] trouble in the next six months if you don’t do it. No. That’s up to you.

Payman Langroudi: But this involves massive trust [00:49:45] anyway to say that.

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, because I’ve taken photos if [00:49:50] they’ve chosen not to go ahead with that, um, when I see them in six months time, I’m like, how’s that [00:49:55] amalgam doing? I’ll take another photo. I’m like, look, this is what the progression is. And that’s when they’re like, [00:50:00] let’s just do it.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the non-clinical side of owning a practice. [00:50:05] How good are you at that? I hate it.

Mahsa Balaie: Do I hate it?

Payman Langroudi: Does your husband help? [00:50:10]

Mahsa Balaie: No.

Payman Langroudi: Manager.

Mahsa Balaie: He. He, um, gives insight. We should [00:50:15] be doing this. But at the end of the day, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Manager.

Mahsa Balaie: Sorry. There is a practice manager. We have a [00:50:20] fantastic practice manager. Amy. Um. And she lightens the load massively for [00:50:25] me.

Payman Langroudi: The transition. The transition between associate and principal. And it’s [00:50:30] different. I mean, you were you were never an associate in this practice, were you?

Mahsa Balaie: Um, just for [00:50:35] the period where we were waiting for the sale to go through. Yes, I was. Okay. Yeah, for [00:50:40] two months.

Payman Langroudi: But you know, the stuff that we were talking about before, about the way you talk to [00:50:45] patients, the way you stage treatment, all of that, that’s all very associate territory. That’s [00:50:50] that’s the actual act of working in the business. But then the working on the business, [00:50:55] the rules and regulations, the, you know, compliance, the [00:51:00] numbers. The numbers. Yeah. Um, hiring and firing. Give [00:51:05] me, give me, first of all, a sense of what are we talking how many how many people [00:51:10] have you got? How many rooms?

Mahsa Balaie: Um, I’ve got two rooms. Um, and I have. [00:51:15]

Payman Langroudi: You and a hygienist. Or is there an associate?

Mahsa Balaie: I’ve got an associate. Uh-uh, um, an implant guy and [00:51:20] a hygienist.

Payman Langroudi: So they share that other room?

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah, yeah. Um [00:51:25] hum. Um, and, um, what were [00:51:30] your questions? Yeah. So, um, I am like this with everyone. It [00:51:35] doesn’t matter who you are. You could be, you know, the top implant surgeon in the world. [00:51:40] You could be cleaning my practice. I’m exactly the same with everyone. And I think, um, [00:51:45] that can get quite hard when you’re running a practice because, you know, you [00:51:50] can’t always be everyone’s friend.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right.

Mahsa Balaie: I’m a massive [00:51:55] people pleaser. Massive people pleaser. I will put myself out to make other [00:52:00] people comfortable.

Payman Langroudi: Um, you’re saying it as a weakness.

Mahsa Balaie: I think it’s a massive weakness. [00:52:05] Absolutely. Just now, when Richard spent my name wrong, I was sat [00:52:10] here and I was like, don’t tell him. Don’t. It’s okay. He went to that much effort. You don’t have to tell him. And then [00:52:15] like, something here was like, just tell him. Yeah, he’ll be fine with it.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you don’t like confrontation.

Mahsa Balaie: I [00:52:20] hate it.

Payman Langroudi: But there are as a business owner, there’s going to be moments, right?

Mahsa Balaie: Those are the only times [00:52:25] where if I have to step in, I’ll get my husband to step in as well because he’s he’s [00:52:30] he’s a director, you know, he’s not clinical. He has nothing to do with it. But if I feel [00:52:35] like I need somebody who isn’t a friend. I’ll get him in, like, appraisals [00:52:40] and stuff. He’ll be in there. And the reason for that is because I also work with these people every single [00:52:45] day. It’s a small team. You want, you know, I, [00:52:50] I see them pretty much as the same amount, if not more, than I see my family. We [00:52:55] need to be on good terms. But there’s a limit, right? [00:53:00] Um. And I’m. I find it hard to find that limit sometimes. Um, but I’m [00:53:05] new to it. I always sort of try and make myself feel a little bit better. Like you’re new to it. [00:53:10] As long as you’re learning from it, we’re okay. Um. And [00:53:15] this is why sometimes I really miss being an associate. Because, you know, you can just clock [00:53:20] in, clock out, be nice to everyone. And, um.

Payman Langroudi: What’s been the biggest challenge? [00:53:25] I mean, what’s been the darkest day in in practice? Ownership. [00:53:30] I’m not talking about in your whole life.

Mahsa Balaie: Um, I fell pregnant, in [00:53:35] year one, so we bought the practice in July. This I went through and in October I found out [00:53:40] I was pregnant. And the first two years are like really [00:53:45] important. So, um, those [00:53:50] nine months, um, from, uh. Let’s, [00:53:55] let’s call it a year, uh, from finding out. And then [00:54:00] for a year. That was a really hard time for me. Really hard time for me. I was waking up [00:54:05] having panic attacks. What are we going to do? We can’t find an associate. We can’t find a locum. I’m going to pay through my nose [00:54:10] for a locum. Um. I want to breastfeed my child. I want to [00:54:15] be at home with my child because you don’t get maternity leave, right? Um. [00:54:20] I was lucky enough to get a few months with my son, but [00:54:25] even as an associate, um, you have to plan for it. So I went back at [00:54:30] five months, and, um. That was a really hard time for me because [00:54:35] the person we did find had no interest in the business. Um, didn’t [00:54:40] care, was getting their daily rate, and, um, really messed up [00:54:45] the business for us. Really messed up the business for us.

Payman Langroudi: Give me an example. What do they [00:54:50] do?

Mahsa Balaie: Just randomly not charging patients. Um. Private [00:54:55] patients. So the rule was, um, you know, we only have a certain number of udas, [00:55:00] and, um, anyone else is private. And so he would see that person [00:55:05] privately realise that they needed, like a number of extractions, refer them on the NHS [00:55:10] to have those extractions, although they could have been done in-house. Um, and then not charge them for the checkerboard [00:55:15] X-rays and I’m like I still have overheads to pay all this time trying [00:55:20] not to stress too much because I’m at home with my newborn baby and I’m having a gallbladder flare up [00:55:25] and I’m in and out of hospital and, you know, um, so that was a [00:55:30] really dark time for me. I went back to work.

Payman Langroudi: Fired him?

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah. Found that really hard [00:55:35] as well. Found it really hard to fire him cause I was like, oh, but he’s coming to work and he’s earning money. And what [00:55:40] if it turns out he’s got, like, eight horses and lives on, like, ten acre land? He [00:55:45] doesn’t. He didn’t need my day rate.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, firing people was the hardest, hardest bit of [00:55:50] business ownership. I don’t know if you’ve ever had to fire someone who did nothing wrong. No. [00:55:55] That’s particularly painful. Yeah. I’ve noticed. Um, and, [00:56:00] you know, you might be thinking, why would you fire someone who’s done nothing wrong? But sometimes the job overtakes [00:56:05] the person. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes I’ve had people who [00:56:10] laid their life down, you know, like, fully go for it. Part of the family, [00:56:15] if you like. Yeah. Who then? We’ve had to fight as it’s tough.

Mahsa Balaie: I [00:56:20] hope not to be in that situation because like, say, for [00:56:25] example, if something’s not going quite right, I will always try and find a way of like, How can I [00:56:30] train you? How can we make this better? How can we keep you? That’s. That’s the sort of sort of.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mahsa Balaie: And [00:56:35] I think at some.

Payman Langroudi: Point I was talking to the CEO of, of, you know, Pearl. Pearl.

Mahsa Balaie: I [00:56:40] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I was talking to the CEO about this very subject. And I said, have you ever had to do that? [00:56:45] And he said, every single person we fire is that person. He said, because by the time it gets [00:56:50] to him.

Mahsa Balaie: They’ve been through so many stages.

Payman Langroudi: Through so many stages. And he says, he says, I’ve [00:56:55] done it hundreds of times. Yeah. And it’s that question of, you know, how do you [00:57:00] handle that? I think that you have to obviously, as the owner, you have to think of the best [00:57:05] interests of the business first. Yeah. Hard to do that when [00:57:10] you’re thinking about people’s lives. Yeah. But one method of coping [00:57:15] with it is to understand you’re doing the person a favour, too. Yeah. Yeah. [00:57:20] I think not necessarily. Right. You know, if the person needs that money [00:57:25] to pay for their medical bills or something. Yeah. Something you know but but understand from [00:57:30] the work perspective. You’re doing that person a favour.

Mahsa Balaie: Absolutely. I mean, that [00:57:35] one year when my daughter was born and everything was going to pot. [00:57:40] Um, it was horrible. But on this side of it, I [00:57:45] remember that. And I’m like, we can’t go back there. We cannot go back there. Like, [00:57:50] physically can’t go back there. So a lot of the decisions I make now, they’re a little bit cut throat, [00:57:55] um, I get, you know, not in terms of employment or, you know, um, staff, [00:58:00] but the business decisions I make now, I’m like, it’s so that we don’t go back there. Um. [00:58:05] I hope not to be in that position where I have to.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:58:10] about hiring? Are you the one who does the hiring?

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: All [00:58:15] of it. Yeah. Nurses? Yeah. Associates. Specialists. For [00:58:20] me, it’s kind of. It’s weird, isn’t it? You’ve never done it before. And now suddenly you’re hiring [00:58:25] people Any any insights? Like, were you good at that or [00:58:30] bad at that or. I have no idea.

Mahsa Balaie: You live and you learn is what I can say. You live [00:58:35] and you learn. Um, I’m definitely learning on the job. Um, and [00:58:40] I feel like I do that a lot. Anyway, like, in a lot of aspects of my life, [00:58:45] um, I’m definitely better at hiring than I am firing. [00:58:50] Um, because I know what I’m looking for. And I’ve definitely gotten better over time. Had I been a little bit [00:58:55] more selective when that person who was going to cover my maternity had come through the door, um, [00:59:00] I probably would have found a better person and I probably would have retained [00:59:05] them. Or, you know, they would have become a part of the family, let’s call it. Yeah. [00:59:10] Um, but I’m learning from it. I’m definitely more selective when I’m [00:59:15] looking for, um, an associate or a nurse now. Um, or even we were looking [00:59:20] for a receptionist the other day. Had about 70 different applications. [00:59:25] I knew what I wanted.

Payman Langroudi: What did you.

Mahsa Balaie: Want? I wanted [00:59:30] somebody. Look, um, I find it really hard to delegate. Really [00:59:35] hard, because I want to be the person who does everything. I want to be the TCO. I want to be the [00:59:40] receptionist. In fact, I sit on reception a lot of the time on my lunch break. Mhm. Um, and answer [00:59:45] the phones, answer emails, whatever. I want to be the nurse. I want to be. I want to be everything. And so [00:59:50] one of my biggest requirements of my staff is I need you to be an extension of me. I [00:59:55] need you to respond to that email in exactly the same way I would. I [01:00:00] want you to answer the phone in exactly the same way I would. And so you [01:00:05] get a vibe, don’t you? You do it a few times, then you get a vibe from a person. You’re like, that person is not going to do [01:00:10] is not going to fit with my criteria. And then we did find, [01:00:15] um, a lovely receptionist who, yeah, just fit the [01:00:20] bill.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a bit limiting. Yeah. That way of thinking. Yeah. You’re [01:00:25] never going to sort of grow properly. No. If you want everything [01:00:30] to be exactly right all the time.

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right. You know, it’s obviously being a perfectionist. [01:00:35] There are benefits to it, but there are big disadvantages. And this is one of them.

Mahsa Balaie: I mean, [01:00:40] I’d like them to be exactly perfect all the time. They’re not.

Payman Langroudi: No, I think it’s [01:00:45] almost the opposite. Yeah. You have to. You have to. When? When you delegate a job. Let’s imagine I’m [01:00:50] I’m right now I’m running the social media for Dental Leaders podcast myself. [01:00:55] I mean, we’ve got social media professionals working on our other [01:01:00] accounts. I’m doing this for myself because I want to. Yeah. Um, the moment I hand that [01:01:05] over to someone. Yeah. Um, unless it depends. If it gets some major [01:01:10] expert, that’d be different. But generally, standards will change. They’ll drop.

Mahsa Balaie: Absolutely. [01:01:15]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. And you have to understand that that will happen. And you have to not mourn [01:01:20] that. Yeah. Standards will drop now. Look, the amount of [01:01:25] work we’ve put into the brand. Enlighten. Yeah. It’s huge. Yeah, [01:01:30] it’s 24 years we’ve been building.

Mahsa Balaie: Congratulations.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but. But, yeah, [01:01:35] someone takes over the social media and might do something that we really don’t [01:01:40] like. It might be a it might be an aesthetic thing. It might like, by the way, you know, sometimes [01:01:45] you get a social media person who has nothing to do with dentistry and then says something that in a Dental world [01:01:50] you would never say, yeah, doesn’t fit. Or it might spell carbamide wrong because [01:01:55] they’ve never, never come across the word carbamide peroxide, you know? But whereas in our world it seems so obvious. Yeah. So [01:02:00] sometimes there are mistakes that are just, like, painful to see. Yeah. But you [01:02:05] have to understand that to grow, you have to. That dip will [01:02:10] come. Yeah. And then eventually they’ll end up doing the job better than you. Yes. [01:02:15] And it’s that’s the key thing that they’ll end up doing the job better than you because their [01:02:20] whole world will be answering that phone. Whereas, you know, answering that phone is only one part of your [01:02:25] life. Yeah, it’s understanding that. And which leads me to the question [01:02:30] of ambition for the future. Because I come across [01:02:35] a lot of mothers. Right. Particularly mothers who kind of want it all. You [01:02:40] know, they they literally want to go to the gym. They want their kids to be Oxford [01:02:45] and Cambridge. They want their business to be whatever it is. And what [01:02:50] are you willing to sacrifice for what? Because, [01:02:55] I mean, I don’t need to tell you. Everything you do comes with sacrifice. Yeah. Yeah. [01:03:00] I mean, I had Anushka Brogan in front of me. She’s got three children, 43 practices. [01:03:05]

Mahsa Balaie: I listened to that podcast. Incredible. Absolutely. Just inspirational.

Payman Langroudi: Really incredible [01:03:10] lady. But. Okay. What are you willing to sacrifice? To [01:03:15] get what?

Mahsa Balaie: Sleep?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. To get what?

Mahsa Balaie: Everything. [01:03:20]

Payman Langroudi: That’s what I mean. Ambition. What’s the ambition? Are you the multiple [01:03:25] practice type? No. You’ve decided already. You’ve ruled it out. You’ve ruled it out? Yeah. [01:03:30] Why?

Mahsa Balaie: I don’t know. I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: I say no. By the way, nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong. [01:03:35]

Mahsa Balaie: With that.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, nothing wrong with having one. One. Brilliant practice. I feel like.

Mahsa Balaie: I’m very early on in my journey. [01:03:40] Yeah. Um. And I feel like it’s only just starting to do this [01:03:45] and go up. Yeah. Um, because it was so low before, you know. And through [01:03:50] no fault of anyone but my own, you know, I had a baby in the middle and and all the rest of it. [01:03:55] So I put that spanner in the works. Um, if I was [01:04:00] to set up another practice, it would be, um, a [01:04:05] squat, and I would.

Payman Langroudi: Why?

Mahsa Balaie: Because [01:04:10] I want it done my way aesthetically. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or do you [01:04:15] mean the people know?

Mahsa Balaie: Aesthetically, I’d want it done my way. Yeah I would. And [01:04:20] I really hope my husband would love this. He’d be like, I told you, we should have done a squat. [01:04:25] I yeah, I didn’t we didn’t have the financial backing to do a squat to begin with.

Payman Langroudi: Squats are very [01:04:30] risky and painful.

Mahsa Balaie: So risky. And so I would want to be in a position where I can risk. [01:04:35] Doing that and potentially not making [01:04:40] anything for two and a half years. Three years until it takes. Um, um. Martina [01:04:45] Hodgson. Yeah. So she, I met [01:04:50] her, I did the, um, small Dental Academy ortho pgdip. Okay. Yeah. And she she came to [01:04:55] lecture, um, once for Invisalign, and she was talking about. Or was she on [01:05:00] here?

Payman Langroudi: She was on my.

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah, she was talking about when she was setting up the dental architect. Right. And [01:05:05] I loved that story. I was like, that’s incredible. You know, and it takes massive [01:05:10] guts to do that. Um, and I’d love to, but I want to do it [01:05:15] without any anxiety. I don’t know if that’s ever going to be possible because I’m an anxious person. Right. [01:05:20]

Payman Langroudi: New business with that anxiety is like.

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah, exactly. But I want to be able [01:05:25] to build it how I want to build it. I want to be able to kit it out, um, how I want to get it out. [01:05:30] Um.

Payman Langroudi: I like that, I like that. So so you’re saying you’re saying there is this little sort [01:05:35] of kernel of ambition.

Mahsa Balaie: Devil in me.

Payman Langroudi: That tells you you want to open a squat. And [01:05:40] by the way, all of us as dentists, we have that right. Our dream practice. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. [01:05:45] But I kind of with you, I think as an exercise, it makes a lot of sense whether [01:05:50] or not you’re going to open a squat to pull yourself out of [01:05:55] this one. Yeah. Because it’s not in your sort of instincts to, to do that [01:06:00] you need to do it. Yeah.

Mahsa Balaie: Do what?

Payman Langroudi: Like systemise it so that you’re not necessary [01:06:05] to it.

Mahsa Balaie: Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I agree as an exercise that obviously if you want to open 42 [01:06:10] of them, you’ll have to do that because you know you’re not going to be in 42 places at once. Yeah, but I’m saying [01:06:15] as an exercise. Systemise it. Yeah. And get over this notion of everything has to be done. [01:06:20] Exactly right. Yeah. So because because I was there for the first eight years. Yeah. [01:06:25] And it was an error.

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah. Our practice manager, um, [01:06:30] I put her on a pedestal. She’s incredible. Actually, all of our members of staff are. They’re [01:06:35] great. Um. And I, we’re going away.

Payman Langroudi: Was she from Dental? Was she there already? [01:06:40]

Mahsa Balaie: She’s been, uh. Well, she started, actually, same day as me. Yeah. So, um, when [01:06:45] I started there as an associate, as we were, the sale was going through. She started as a dental [01:06:50] nurse. Um, so we’ve been there exactly the same amount of time. She’s been a dental nurse for years. Over [01:06:55] ten years. Um, and the opportunity arose, and [01:07:00] she’s the sort of person I want to retain, I must retain. She’s great. And I said, [01:07:05] you know, um, would you consider training as a practice manager? And she was like, [01:07:10] oh, you know, I love the clinical side. I don’t want to go nonclinical. It’s like, that’s okay. You [01:07:15] can still be clinical, but kind of do both. Anyway, she [01:07:20] did her course.

Payman Langroudi: What course was it?

Mahsa Balaie: Um, she found it. [01:07:25] I paid for it, I don’t know, sorry. Yeah. Um, but she’s she’s she’s very [01:07:30] pernickety. So she looked for. Yeah, looked for courses for months and then was like, I think I [01:07:35] found the one I want to do. I offer, I always offer training to my, um, staff. So [01:07:40] what do you want to do next? How do you want to progress?

Payman Langroudi: So anyway in the appraisal. [01:07:45]

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah. Yeah, always.

Payman Langroudi: And you pay for it. Always. Yeah, I like that.

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah. And, [01:07:50] um, anyway, so, um, the other day we sat down and I said, well, Amy, [01:07:55] um, we’re going away. So we’re going away for three weeks in April. [01:08:00] First time ever. Pretty much.

Payman Langroudi: Where [01:08:05] are you going?

Mahsa Balaie: Just going back home. Back to Iran. My in-laws haven’t met my daughter, so we’re going to go.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:08:10] nice.

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah. And I said, what do we need to have in place for [01:08:15] you not to need me for three weeks? And she turned around and was like, I don’t need you.

Payman Langroudi: Ooh.

Mahsa Balaie: And [01:08:20] I was like, I beg your pardon? I don’t need you. I have all the passwords. [01:08:25] The only thing I need you to do is make sure payroll is set up. And our accountant does that anyway. Make [01:08:30] sure it’s so that everyone gets paid on time. I won’t call you. I won’t text you. [01:08:35] I don’t need you.

Payman Langroudi: What a star.

Mahsa Balaie: And for the first time, I trusted her. [01:08:40] I trust her. Not past tense. I trust her, and I was like, cool. And [01:08:45] I don’t think you realise. Maybe you do. After this conversation. What [01:08:50] a pivotal moment that is for me to be like. Cool. She’ll deal with it. I’m. I’m. [01:08:55] Let’s go on holiday. Are we going to the lounge first? You know. Um. [01:09:00] And I could not have done that a year ago. There’s no way I could have done it a year ago, but definitely not two years ago. Go [01:09:05] away for three weeks and not think. Now I’m going to [01:09:10] be thinking about the practice. I’m going to be thinking about everything.

Payman Langroudi: No, but the fact that you’ve got the confidence that.

Mahsa Balaie: I don’t need.

Payman Langroudi: To. [01:09:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mahsa Balaie: I love that.

Payman Langroudi: You know, like, I think you should lock her down [01:09:20] 100%. Make sure she doesn’t leave you. Um, but at the same time, as [01:09:25] you know, the employee is a combination of [01:09:30] the person and the nurturing. Yeah. [01:09:35] The situation you’ve put in place. Yeah. Yeah. It’s important to bear that in mind. Yeah, that [01:09:40] that, you know, the person has a sort of like a, for instance, this [01:09:45] thing you’re saying about training. Yeah. For you to say to someone, [01:09:50] what do you want to learn? And I will pay for it. Yeah. Isn’t the normal situation in most practices? [01:09:55]

Mahsa Balaie: I’ve come to realise that, um. You had somebody. I don’t remember his name. [01:10:00] Um, you had somebody on the podcast. Um, and they, um, he [01:10:05] was basically talking about, you know, how do I incentivise incentivise my staff? Yeah. [01:10:10] And that really struck a chord with me because I was like, why would they stay [01:10:15] otherwise? You know, if it’s the same day in, day out. It’s [01:10:20] very common practice to look for a new job. Um, very [01:10:25] common, especially with LinkedIn. All the rest of it. You’re constantly looking for a new job. What can I [01:10:30] do to make my staff want to stay? Because if I’m doing [01:10:35] all of that and they still don’t want to stay, you’re not good enough for me anyway. You’re not. We’re not the right match. And I always [01:10:40] say that to, um, if I am hiring, um, I always say, you [01:10:45] know, I want you to be here as much as I want you to be here. And I always offer [01:10:50] a, um, one day where they come and shadow like a like a trial day. Yeah. [01:10:55] Because there’s no point in getting them straight in, um. And [01:11:00] two weeks, two months down the line, they’d be like, this isn’t for me.

Mahsa Balaie: I want them to have an [01:11:05] idea because where there is no hierarchy in our practice, I own the [01:11:10] practice because that’s my position. Um, and reception because that’s their, you know, [01:11:15] that’s their job title. But there’s no hierarchy in the practice. That’s a good and a bad thing. Um, I think [01:11:20] um, but that’s not to everyone’s liking. Some people need hierarchy. [01:11:25] Yeah. Um, and I need them to know that before they enter my practice under contract. [01:11:30] Um, but, yeah, you know, things like offering training [01:11:35] for me, that’s the least I can do. Um, I want I why [01:11:40] do we go on so many courses? You know, um, why why did I come to Mini smile makeover? Why do [01:11:45] I do as much CPD apart from the fact that I have to? Why do I do? It is because I want to progress. I want to [01:11:50] learn. I don’t want to just live a monotonous life where I. I [01:11:55] know the same amount about composite as I did when I studied it in year two, you know. [01:12:00]

Payman Langroudi: And what about financial incentives?

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah. We do. I mean, we weren’t in [01:12:05] a position, for example, a year ago. Um, no. Uh, yeah, [01:12:10] the year before that. They’re very understanding. But because they can [01:12:15] see how much effort we go to, they can see what a non-toxic [01:12:20] environment it is, and they can see how much we do outside of monetary [01:12:25] incentives. They’re like, it’s cool. Just whenever you can. I know that, [01:12:30] I know that bonuses are not a given. Um, but I like to give them if I can. [01:12:35]

Payman Langroudi: And did you like, I don’t know, dinners, drinks?

Mahsa Balaie: Loads.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [01:12:40]

Mahsa Balaie: Well, we have a practice meeting every month. Um, and I provide lunch [01:12:45] for that. We, um. I’m working with Jack at store Small. Um. And [01:12:50] he was like, should I bring lunch? Um, and we’re having a lunch and learn. And I was like, don’t worry, I’ll [01:12:55] provide it. He’s like, okay, you know, just sandwiches. I’m like, no, we get like, I really like supporting [01:13:00] local businesses. So I’ll do like either the local cafe or the local Thai or the local Chinese. [01:13:05] And he’s like, oh my goodness, you’re really setting the bar high. I love that sort of thing. Um, I the [01:13:10] practice I worked in in Portsmouth, there were a few members of staff that were really long [01:13:15] standing there, like 12, 15, 20 years, and they always used to reminisce about [01:13:20] how the old bosses used to take them to like the West End for theatres and stuff. I’m like, okay, [01:13:25] I’m not going that far, but I’ll do as much as I can. Um, whatever is within my capacity, I’ll [01:13:30] do. Um, we try and do once a year, twice a year socials. Um, [01:13:35] so we’re hoping for a spring social, so, I don’t know, we’ll just go for dinner or something [01:13:40] a little bit more creative. I don’t know, I really want to do tufting. So we’ll probably do that somewhere. Um, and then [01:13:45] obviously Christmas party.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get on to the darker part. Errors. [01:13:50] Clinical errors. Yeah. What comes to mind [01:13:55] when I say that? What errors can you tell us about that someone else can learn from? [01:14:00]

Mahsa Balaie: Um, the one that comes to mind. I was quite a [01:14:05] recent graduate, um, in my first job. And, um, [01:14:10] you just sort of thrown in the deep end, right? Um, and there’s this. Bless her. This 15 [01:14:15] year old girl, massive decay on her lower right six. Um, [01:14:20] and she’s then going to go in for orthodontics afterwards, so she needs this restored. [01:14:25] And I don’t know what came over me. I just kept drilling [01:14:30] and then perforated it, and [01:14:35] I didn’t know what to do. Um, so that was my clinical [01:14:40] error. But on reflection, we’re only human, [01:14:45] right? Like, I was a new graduate. Probably should have had someone holding my hand [01:14:50] a little bit more than they were. Um, but then I just communicated it. They were so understanding. [01:14:55] This comes back to Spain versus England. I’m like, this is the situation. I’m [01:15:00] so sorry. I did try my best, but you know, X, Y and Z, and they were so understanding [01:15:05] about it. Um, but that was my first clinical error. Um. [01:15:10]

Payman Langroudi: And I’m not really going to accept [01:15:15] that. It’s not very great. There must have been bigger clinical errors than that.

Mahsa Balaie: I [01:15:20] don’t know. I honestly, I, you know. [01:15:25]

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Management error. Like a, like a your most difficult patient.

Mahsa Balaie: My [01:15:30] biggest management error um, is [01:15:35] going above and beyond.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Often that’s the situation when it happens. Right?

Mahsa Balaie: It is [01:15:40] honestly, the people I think I’ve become a little bit, um, I [01:15:45] don’t know if I should say this and put it out in the universe. A little bit immune to complaints. Um, [01:15:50] but the only people, the biggest complaints [01:15:55] have come to the people who I have gone above and beyond for, um. [01:16:00]

Payman Langroudi: Just tell us about it.

Mahsa Balaie: Oh my goodness. I’m not sure I am. I allowed I’m not [01:16:05] sure.

Payman Langroudi: Who’s going to stop.

Mahsa Balaie: You. I don’t know, I don’t know, no. So, for example, I had a patient [01:16:10] who came in, um, and I always my mentors, um, [01:16:15] in Portsmouth. Fantastic. Um, and they really taught me [01:16:20] everything I need. Not just NHS, everything, consent, um, communication, [01:16:25] etc.. Notes. Um, my old boss used to go through my [01:16:30] notes in lunch break and be like, you forgot this, you forgot that. And at the time it was really offensive. But actually I really [01:16:35] appreciated it. So anyway, this patient comes in and, [01:16:40] um, I consent him. I say, look, I think you should be referred for this extraction. He’s like, oh, [01:16:45] don’t worry, you know, and we’ve always had very good rapport. Um, he’s like, no, it’s [01:16:50] cool, I trust you. If anything goes wrong, don’t worry about it. Um, and he himself is [01:16:55] a retired medical professional. Um, so [01:17:00] I feel like we’re on the same page. He understands me, I consent him. It’s all written. It’s all scanned. [01:17:05]

Payman Langroudi: What were you thinking to refer? Was it particularly difficult?

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah, I could see the sinus. I could see, you know, you [01:17:10] get a vibe, right? And I’m, like, broken down. Yeah. So he’d come [01:17:15] in with pain. Um, I had diagnosed a hairline fracture. He was like, [01:17:20] I don’t think it’s that. I was like, let me open a dress, see if I can at least get you out of pain. Pain worsened. [01:17:25] One of these, like, don’t shouldn’t have touched it to begin with. So a specialist. So [01:17:30] then every time he’s calling first thing in the morning, I’m like, get [01:17:35] him in. Don’t worry, I’ll get him in. I’ll go. The amount of times I gave up my lunch break for this guy. Yeah. Um, [01:17:40] so then I get an email. Anyway, [01:17:45] so we ended up having to take the 2000. Look, there’s nothing I can please let me send [01:17:50] you to a specialist. No, I want the tooth out. I think we should. We should send you for a restore ability assessment. [01:17:55] No, I want the two that I was like, okay, sign here. So then I’m [01:18:00] taking it out. Obviously it breaks. The palatal root is probably [01:18:05] touching the sinus. He’s in excruciating pain. I’m like, I’m going to abandon the extraction here. I am [01:18:10] going to refer you to, um, have the root out by oral surgery. So [01:18:15] then it goes away. Um, anyway, he [01:18:20] obviously pulls a few strings getting gets in with Imus quicker, gets it [01:18:25] out, etc. and then, um, about maybe six [01:18:30] months later, I get an email from the GDC.

Payman Langroudi: Or GDC.

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah, yeah. [01:18:35] And my heart dropped.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mahsa Balaie: I was like, what is this? Um, and he basically [01:18:40] put in a fitness to practice complaint. Um, she’s not safe [01:18:45] for the community. She doesn’t know what she’s doing, etc., etc.. Um, [01:18:50] and I, I take everything to heart.

Payman Langroudi: You’re [01:18:55] gonna. You’re gonna. You know, that’s.

Mahsa Balaie: More than anything. I’m like. I [01:19:00] did everything for you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mahsa Balaie: I gave up my lunch breaks. I was very concise. I, [01:19:05] um, you know, I tried to send you to a. I tried to [01:19:10] send you to someone else, or you didn’t want it.

Payman Langroudi: What was your emotion? What was. What was what was what was it? What was?

Mahsa Balaie: I got gallbladder [01:19:15] flare up straight away.

Payman Langroudi: What was the main emotion? Was it like betrayal?

Mahsa Balaie: Betrayal? [01:19:20]

Payman Langroudi: Was it. Was it.

Mahsa Balaie: Betrayal?

Payman Langroudi: Did you get on with him?

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah, massively. [01:19:25] Hey, how are you doing? How’s the family so far? Yeah. Um, he knew that I was pregnant. He [01:19:30] knew I’d just given birth, and I was. And I felt like it was a personal vendetta. [01:19:35] And for somebody who, um, was in the medical profession, I [01:19:40] won’t say what sector. Um, he knew that the heartbreak this was going [01:19:45] to cause, and he knew the stress it was going to cause. And that’s why I felt it was personal. Um, um, [01:19:50] but, you know, it all came back and they were like, yeah, he’s got no reason. It took a little while, [01:19:55] but it was thrown out, you know, straight away.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:20:00] on reflection, um, what was the error?

Mahsa Balaie: I, [01:20:05] I think if I had the same situation today, I would [01:20:10] say I, I will not treat you.

Payman Langroudi: So you insist on the referral [01:20:15] more?

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah. I’d insist either for a restore ability assessment with a specialist [01:20:20] or for an extraction with a specialist. And I think I’ve started to get a vibe for these sorts [01:20:25] of patients. Um, and it’s not nice to generalise.

Payman Langroudi: No, it’s an experience thing that [01:20:30] you can.

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah. So I would just be like, it’s in your best interest and mine [01:20:35] that we refer you on. Um, because.

Payman Langroudi: But do you think that, [01:20:40] do you think it was the difficulty of the case itself, or do you think you [01:20:45] had a bad feeling about the person?

Mahsa Balaie: I felt like I owed him something because we [01:20:50] got on so well.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, because.

Mahsa Balaie: I was like, let me. You know, he’ll be fine. If it doesn’t go right, [01:20:55] he’ll be fine because, you know, sometimes it doesn’t go right. Um.

Payman Langroudi: How [01:21:00] long did that GDC thing go on for?

Mahsa Balaie: Um. Over [01:21:05] six months.

Payman Langroudi: Six months of pain. And your notes were [01:21:10] really good. Were they.

Mahsa Balaie: Always airtight?

Payman Langroudi: So is that what sort of swung it that you’d put all of this [01:21:15] in the notes?

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%, 100%. And you know what? I had a feeling. I had a feeling.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:21:20] you did better on the notes than than usual.

Mahsa Balaie: Um, sort [01:21:25] of like I’m always quite very comprehensive. Anyway, um, but this [01:21:30] patient came back and said, um, I’ve been taking my wife’s antibiotics. [01:21:35] Can you just top them up for her? And I was like, pardon? And that [01:21:40] I put, like, very long notes in, um, being like, [01:21:45] no, sorry. That’s not that’s not right. Um, but [01:21:50] yeah, that was that was not a very nice time in my life. [01:21:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I bet, I bet. The weird thing about being a dentist is any [01:22:00] day, any patient could lead to six months or 12 months or 24 months [01:22:05] of pain and that.

Mahsa Balaie: Or infinite pain. Because actually, [01:22:10] actually, it could ruin someone’s life. Um, and [01:22:15] I think what we, I think what people lose sight of is [01:22:20] that we’re human, right? Um, yes. We’re dentists. [01:22:25] Yes. We have a certain amount of training and qualifications, but we are human. It’s [01:22:30] human error. Um, and that [01:22:35] is something that is very overlooked.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, I stopped [01:22:40] practising in 2012. Yeah, but I still remember one patient complaint. [01:22:45] To this day, I mean, probably 2009. It’s exactly what you said when I was [01:22:50] going out of my way for someone I was really doing above and beyond. [01:22:55] And then the complaint, it was just one word in the complaint letter. It never went to GDC or [01:23:00] anything. There was one word in the complaint letter about I can’t remember, but it was like that. [01:23:05] He wasn’t helping, you know, like something like that. And because I was really. [01:23:10]

Mahsa Balaie: Above.

Payman Langroudi: And beyond. Yeah, it can really get to you. It’s such a weird thing. You know, [01:23:15] like, we all understand not to take these things personally, but. But you do.

Mahsa Balaie: How [01:23:20] do you not? How do you not? Because you know, you you have gone [01:23:25] above and beyond, and you’ve given up your time and didn’t need to. Could have said, sorry, [01:23:30] this is my lunch break. Come back later or wait for the next gap, or I don’t have an emergency slot till Friday. [01:23:35] That’s when you’ll wait to because guess what? You call the GP and if there’s no appointments, there’s no appointment. They won’t make [01:23:40] space for you. Um, so yeah, I take it. I take it personally, you know? No. [01:23:45] Um. Yeah, I can see why you took it personally.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:23:50] that’s that’s much better than the, uh, perforation. We learn from that, right? We learn [01:23:55] from that. Let’s get to the final questions. Fantasy [01:24:00] dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive. Who [01:24:05] are you having?

Mahsa Balaie: So I really struggle with this question. And every [01:24:10] time you ask it on the podcast, I’m like, who would I have? Who would I have? I asked my husband. Right. [01:24:15] And I was like, babe, I’m going on this podcast. He’s probably going to ask me this [01:24:20] question. What’s your answer? Was that dinner? He was like, you three, like me, [01:24:25] my son and my daughter. And I was like, no. Pretend we’re.

Payman Langroudi: There.

Mahsa Balaie: Do better. And [01:24:30] he goes, uh, okay. And he named his three best mates. And he’s like, well, I’ll just have a piss up. [01:24:35] And I was like, at first I sort of thought, come on, [01:24:40] do better. And then I thought, this guy’s really content with his life. He just wants to have [01:24:45] a good time with his three best mates or his three family members, and [01:24:50] that’s good enough for him, right? So then I got thinking and I thought, I don’t really [01:24:55] idolise anyone, I don’t. If you say to me, who’s your favourite actor? I don’t know. Right. Who’s your favourite [01:25:00] singer? I don’t know. I like, I like music, I like movies, but I don’t idolise anyone. Um. [01:25:05] One person. One [01:25:10] person I would have. I promised myself I wouldn’t [01:25:15] do this. One person I would have is my older brother. Who? [01:25:25] Um. He [01:25:30] died when he was really young, and I was really young. Um. And I [01:25:35] just feel like I’d love to have him there. Um. [01:25:40]

Payman Langroudi: How old was.

Mahsa Balaie: He? He was 12.

Payman Langroudi: 12.

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah. Um. [01:25:45]

Payman Langroudi: What happened?

Mahsa Balaie: He was really unwell. Um, yeah. [01:25:50] He was really unwell for a very long time. Um, so I [01:25:55] think a lot of us, like, we just didn’t let it go and sort of, um. I [01:26:00] just wondered how he’s doing. The [01:26:05] other person I would have, um. And everyone’s just sort of like, why would you have that person is. R.r. [01:26:10] Tolkien, who wrote Hobbit. And I just felt like someone [01:26:15] with that sort of imagination is so worth talking to. Sure, you’re going to have so many cool stories at that [01:26:20] table. Um, and I really don’t know who the third person [01:26:25] would be. Yeah, definitely those two people. Um, I don’t know, just [01:26:30] for the fun of it. My husband, he’s quite cool. He’s a cool cat.

Payman Langroudi: Fair enough. [01:26:35] Final question. Deathbed piece [01:26:40] of advice. Three pieces of advice for your friends and family. Yeah. On your deathbed. [01:26:45]

Mahsa Balaie: And. Just dive [01:26:50] in. Dive in. Take that chance.

Payman Langroudi: Go all in.

Mahsa Balaie: Go [01:26:55] all in. Learn to swim. Learn to swim in the shallow [01:27:00] end. And then once you know that you can do it. Dive in, dive in. And at some point you’ll float. That’s [01:27:05] the first one. Second one would be to never [01:27:10] compromise your values for anyone. [01:27:15] Um.

Payman Langroudi: Like a ethical thing?

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah. [01:27:20] Yeah. So, like, if you believe in something, follow that through. [01:27:25] Yeah. Um, I feel like as people, we should be malleable to [01:27:30] a certain extent. But that one sort of belief and drive [01:27:35] should always be there. And, um. And the third one [01:27:40] is, um, life is not 100% happy all [01:27:45] the time. There’s pockets of happiness. And as long as you take the [01:27:50] time to really take them in, the rest doesn’t really matter. The rest is sort of travelling [01:27:55] from one pocket of happiness to the next. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s interesting. Yeah. That’s [01:28:00] interesting. That’s. I’ve never heard that one before. What about something that, [01:28:05] you know, like these, the ones you said are sort of, uh, I [01:28:10] dive all in, so you should too, or I. What about things that you wish you’d [01:28:15] done and you haven’t? I mean, for the sake of the argument, [01:28:20] go to the gym more because I didn’t, you know, something like that. What would you say? [01:28:25]

Mahsa Balaie: Um, sorry. Ask the question [01:28:30] again so I can.

Payman Langroudi: You know, the way you can answer that question is these three things really worked for me. [01:28:35] So you should do them too. Yeah, but that’s that’s one way of answering it. Another way of answering it [01:28:40] is I wish I was more risk taking. I wish I was more so, you [01:28:45] know, to be more risk taking be, you know, whatever, whatever the thing is. So what’s that thing that you wish [01:28:50] you were more, um.

Mahsa Balaie: I wish I was more invested in my mental [01:28:55] health prior to when I became invested in my mental health earlier. Yeah. Yeah, [01:29:00] definitely. Um, I don’t think it would have changed the trajectory of my life, [01:29:05] but I definitely feel like it would have helped me deal with things a little bit better. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So, [01:29:10] I mean, when you say invested in your mental health, are you now is there [01:29:15] a is there a bit of your head that’s like masses, mental health. [01:29:20]

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: And what you do for that 100% really, really 100%. And [01:29:25] it wasn’t there before.

Mahsa Balaie: No, no, before I was on auto drive.

Payman Langroudi: Just go. [01:29:30]

Mahsa Balaie: Right. Um, and then if I felt a bit iffy, I’d be like, oh, just get out of the funk, you know? [01:29:35] But I never did anything to nurture my mental health and [01:29:40] to to sort of nurture positivity.

Payman Langroudi: And so what do you do now? I mean, like, look, [01:29:45] your physical health journal. Oh, really?

Mahsa Balaie: Really a journal. Yeah. So I follow this [01:29:50] broadcast on Instagram. Um, that is very sort of, um, like cosmic. [01:29:55] And, you know, Saturn is in there, but it’s really nice because it gives you, [01:30:00] um, something to think about that day. So think about [01:30:05] what you want to, um, let go of. And so I sit down and [01:30:10] I journal that and I’m like, I would like to let go of blah, blah, blah. This is how I’m going to do it.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:30:15] so is it an app that asks you that question?

Mahsa Balaie: No. On Instagram, it’s a broadcast. So [01:30:20] every day she’ll send out this broadcast to everyone who’s following.

Payman Langroudi: What’s it called?

Mahsa Balaie: I don’t know, I’ll have to [01:30:25] tell you. It’s really cool. I’ll show you. Hold on. Where are [01:30:30] we?

Payman Langroudi: And then when you journal, do you look back on things you wrote a [01:30:35] couple of months ago and think, God, I can’t believe I was worried about that then or.

Mahsa Balaie: A little bit. I mean, I haven’t [01:30:40] been journaling for that long. Um, but yeah, you sort of look [01:30:45] back and you’re like, okay, well, where are we now in comparison? Mhm. Um, [01:30:50] did anything really bad come of it. No. And you sort of just learn from it [01:30:55] that way. So yeah, I, it’s called cosmic community.

Payman Langroudi: Cosmic cosmic. [01:31:00]

Mahsa Balaie: Community.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Mahsa Balaie: Um, so I do that um, and honestly, the [01:31:05] gym, I just, I know that that is me filling my cup for the day [01:31:10] and once I’ve filled my cup, um, and sort of. That brings me on to my next point [01:31:15] that I would sort of, I wish, I, I wish I took more time to fill my cup because unless my, my [01:31:20] cup is full, I cannot fill everyone else’s. Um, and [01:31:25] that’s. Yeah, that’s something I believe in massively now.

Payman Langroudi: Because people people pleasing is a disease [01:31:30] in itself. Mhm. Yeah. And it’s it’s one of the most difficult ones because [01:31:35] the type of people who people pleasers are wonderful to be around because they spend [01:31:40] all their lives making you happy. Yeah. And you kind of put them on a pedestal in that [01:31:45] sense. Yeah. And yet it can it can be it can be a real problem.

Mahsa Balaie: And then you [01:31:50] don’t know what demons they’re fighting behind the scenes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Because you’re not filling your own cup, as you say. Yeah.

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah. [01:31:55] That that was a really big process for me. That was a really big process for me because I [01:32:00] would beat myself up about it. And oh, but, you know, I’d go home [01:32:05] and it would really get me down. Um, but now [01:32:10] I just a trying to be less of a people pleaser. Um, [01:32:15] but not massively. I think it’s a good trait to have as well. You know, like, make people around you happy. Why [01:32:20] not? Of course. Just not at your own expense.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mahsa Balaie: Um. But, yeah, filling my cup, I [01:32:25] would, I would encourage everyone to do something. Doesn’t doesn’t matter what it is. [01:32:30] Fill your cup.

Payman Langroudi: You seem to have a lovely relationship with your husband, who I’ve never [01:32:35] met. But what’s the secret to that? I mean, it’s difficult when two kids come along. [01:32:40] Business, all of that. Do you work on that?

Mahsa Balaie: Do you work on our relationship? [01:32:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, like. Like, you know, like you’re saying to work on your mental health. Yeah. [01:32:50] Sometimes with the relationship. Sometimes the relationship is what gives first or [01:32:55] gives the most. Because you’re not going to let your kids situation give. [01:33:00] You can’t let your business give. Sometimes the relationship gives. So [01:33:05] I mean, do you do date nights? I mean, what is it? What is it like?

Mahsa Balaie: Do we do date nights? Our kids are four and two. Yeah. What [01:33:10] do you think?

Payman Langroudi: Well, do you not have.

Mahsa Balaie: A.

Payman Langroudi: Babysitter?

Mahsa Balaie: No. No, we.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:33:15] think the problem with moving around so much.

Mahsa Balaie: This is.

Payman Langroudi: It.

Mahsa Balaie: Well, well, this.

Payman Langroudi: Is.

Mahsa Balaie: It. I think my my relationship [01:33:20] with my husband is touchwood, as fantastic as it is. Um, because we [01:33:25] have no one else. We have no choice but to be good. You [01:33:30] know, we we know that at the end of the day, we can fall back on [01:33:35] each other. He is very. He’s, um, you know, very positive. [01:33:40] And he’ll be fine. Oh my goodness. The one thing he will always say when I was worrying. [01:33:45] Don’t worry. Don’t worry. Oh, yeah. Cool. I’m done worrying. Okay. Um, but [01:33:50] he’s that sort of person. And I think, you know what? On reflection, I probably [01:33:55] should put we probably should put a bit more effort into nurturing our [01:34:00] relationship. I think we’re in that season of our life where maybe we can’t because there’s so much [01:34:05] else going on.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mahsa Balaie: Um, first and foremost, we are both [01:34:10] very much set on the fact that there’s no way out. So this either thrives or [01:34:15] it thrives. That’s it. Um, but I think we both are [01:34:20] sort of at peace with the fact that we have each other. [01:34:25] And doesn’t matter what, where the pockets of sunshine are. We’re [01:34:30] still we’re going to get there and we’ll get there together and that’s fine. Um, I think [01:34:35] being quite isolated demographically at the moment sort of geographically. [01:34:40]

Payman Langroudi: Makes that happen.

Mahsa Balaie: It makes that happen, definitely. Um, but even then, [01:34:45] like, um, you know, we are always talking about, um, trying [01:34:50] to find new sort of parent friends, um, to spend our time with. And [01:34:55] we always come back to the fact that we have so much fun together, just us four. We love it, and I don’t [01:35:00] I don’t necessarily, um, encourage only being in your family unit, [01:35:05] but I think it’s quite nice when you comfortably can be.

Payman Langroudi: Um, definitely, definitely. The thing is, new friends. [01:35:10] I mean, who needs new friends when you’ve got old friends? That’s. That’s my feeling on that.

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah. I [01:35:15] think when you when your new parents and we have been moving around like, loads. One of [01:35:20] my best friends, she’s got this NCT group that she just goes back to every single time because she’s been in the [01:35:25] same place. We don’t have that. And our son was born in Covid. There was no NCT then. And [01:35:30] so the friends that we, one of my best mum friends I met on an app called peanut, which is [01:35:35] a tinder for mums, right?

Payman Langroudi: Um, Tinder for mums.

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s great to find friends. [01:35:40]

Mahsa Balaie: So, um, it’s basically. Yeah. You sign up to the app and you swipe [01:35:45] on, you have a profile.

Payman Langroudi: Go.

Mahsa Balaie: On and you swipe right or left.

Payman Langroudi: To find friends. [01:35:50] Yeah. Buddies. Mum friends. Other mum. Friends.

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: In the area. Yeah. Oh, [01:35:55] God.

Mahsa Balaie: Yeah. So you set your radius.

Payman Langroudi: What’s it called? Peanut.

Mahsa Balaie: Peanut?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mahsa Balaie: And one of my best [01:36:00] friends. Hannah. Yeah, we met on there. We were both, like, six weeks pregnant with our son.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:36:05] you look at the face of the person, decide if they’re going to be your friend or not.

Mahsa Balaie: Well, no. There’s [01:36:10] a small description. Yeah. Small description. Um. It’s crazy. Right? Like, [01:36:15] looking back on it, you’re like, geez, I must have been really desperate. Um, [01:36:20] but one of my best friends, one of my best mum friends comes from there. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: This [01:36:25] podcast is brought to you by peanut, the Tinder for moms. I didn’t [01:36:30] have no idea. It’s been a massive pleasure. I really enjoyed it.

Mahsa Balaie: Thank you so much for having me.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks for being so open. [01:36:35] So open. You know, always, um, a lovely thing. Thanks a lot.

Mahsa Balaie: Thank you. [01:36:40]

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the podcast [01:36:45] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:36:50] hosts, Payman Langroudi and [01:36:55] Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, [01:37:00] you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually [01:37:05] sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming [01:37:10] you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [01:37:15] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. [01:37:20] Thank you so so so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.