Month: August 2025

Payman Langroudi: Anterior composites are an area that a lot of us have trouble with, and the [00:00:05] magic that you get from a patient where you haven’t drilled their teeth and yet [00:00:10] you’ve improved their appearance, is something that, you know, the more whitening you do, the more aligners [00:00:15] you do, the more anterior composites you’ll have to do. If you’re not 100% on them, [00:00:20] get yourself on a course like Mini Smile Makeover with Depeche Palmer. Visit Mini Smile [00:00:25] Makeover for dates and details.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in [00:00:40] dentistry. Your hosts [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great [00:00:50] pleasure to welcome Gary Pradhan and Shivani Bhandari on to the podcast. Two [00:00:55] remarkable ladies. Really, um, a difficult journey to [00:01:00] dentistry from India and practice owners during three mixed practices, [00:01:05] and an organisation that helps foreign dentists [00:01:10] come to the UK and negotiate the ridiculous path that it takes to get [00:01:15] here. It’s a massive pleasure to have you.

Gauri Pradhan: Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Payman Langroudi: Would you live, by the way?

Gauri Pradhan: Cheltenham. [00:01:20]

Payman Langroudi: Cheltenham, both of you?

Gauri Pradhan: Yes, yes. So I used to live in London but moved to Cheltenham [00:01:25] just because. Oh, really? Yeah. So our first practice was in Bristol and I was in Cheltenham. [00:01:30] That’s about 45 minutes. And she would travel every day, almost [00:01:35] every day to come help out and by car by car. [00:01:40] And it was taking a toll. And then so we decided that [00:01:45] when we were going in for the second one, uh, Shivani decided that. Let’s just [00:01:50] move. And I think they are happy there because schools are great. Uh, [00:01:55] Cheltenham is a great place to be B anyway.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t you wanna live in Bristol?

Gauri Pradhan: I [00:02:00] used to live in Bristol. Great. Lovely town. Yeah, but I lived [00:02:05] ten years there. Actually, my husband and myself lived separately [00:02:10] most of the time because I used to work in the hospital. And he would work in hospital. So [00:02:15] wherever we got jobs. But till we conceived, uh, we, uh, [00:02:20] when I conceived, we said, okay, that’s it. So I [00:02:25] moved with him. And that was Bristol. We’ve been all around [00:02:30] the country. And then, uh. Yeah. Uh, then I moved where he moved. [00:02:35] He got his final job, and he became a consultant in Cheltenham. So did.

Payman Langroudi: You. Did you meet [00:02:40] in university?

Gauri Pradhan: No, we never went [00:02:45] around. As in going around. I have a twin brother and my husband. His [00:02:50] is his best friend. So we know each other since we were two, I think, or [00:02:55] maybe three. And, um. Uh uh, I was totally [00:03:00] directed to making a career. Yeah, this was in India. [00:03:05] And my parents. Sorry. Where in India? Lucknow. A place called Lucknow. [00:03:10] It’s in Uttar Pradesh, about 12 hours from Delhi. Or half an hour by flight. 45 [00:03:15] minutes. So.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so your parents instilled that you’re going to be self-reliant [00:03:20] from a childhood time. Like what? What made you want to be a dentist and [00:03:25] all of that?

Gauri Pradhan: Uh, I was at a stage where I was not doing [00:03:30] very well. Uh, but, uh, at one point, I remember telling [00:03:35] my mother that I don’t want to do dentistry. Uh, this was before I joined the industry. [00:03:40] And, uh, she was the. She was, [00:03:45] as always, the open person. She says, okay, don’t take make a choice now. So, uh, [00:03:50] I didn’t want to grow old. And my hands shivering and still trying to make money. So I [00:03:55] left it. And sometimes when you put don’t put pressure on a kid, it [00:04:00] turns out to be better. Yeah. And then I suddenly realised, I know I. [00:04:05] In India, you’re allowed to take kids to your surgery, go to go to the [00:04:10] university with them because there’s hardly any childcare available. Or if grandparents are great, but there’s [00:04:15] no reliable childcare. And I would pick up stuff. So I thought, why not? Because I hadn’t [00:04:20] decided on a career. And then I took some exams.

Payman Langroudi: And what are your parents? Dentists. [00:04:25]

Gauri Pradhan: My father is a maxillofacial surgeon. Oh, really? And my mother, she’s passed [00:04:30] away now. But she was an orthodontist. Oh, really? Yeah. Both, uh, had [00:04:35] great careers. They travelled the world because of their careers and.

Payman Langroudi: Academics. [00:04:40]

Gauri Pradhan: And academics and and and obviously clinical both. So [00:04:45] they had their private clinic as well. And they used to work in one of the best universities in India. [00:04:50]

Payman Langroudi: So, so then when you were making a decision about which way your your career [00:04:55] was going to go, were you? Was it? Was it either like your dad or like your mom? [00:05:00] Or why? Why? Why did you look at oral surgery?

Gauri Pradhan: So, um. [00:05:05]

Payman Langroudi: Are you the oldest?

Gauri Pradhan: No, I have an older brother who [00:05:10] is also a max back surgeon. And so at the dinner table, [00:05:15] we would all sit together and dentistry would be discussed. And, uh, [00:05:20] my twin brother was totally against it because he can’t face needles, [00:05:25] he faints. He’s got needle phobia. And, uh, we would discuss things. And [00:05:30] with that, I slowly understood that I [00:05:35] have the drive to do Max wax, and I wouldn’t be happy doing a two millimetre tooth movement [00:05:40] and seeing the patient over one year. I wanted to go in and do stuff and [00:05:45] see a result.

Payman Langroudi: Like blood.

Gauri Pradhan: Yeah, that the thrill. The [00:05:50] thrill. I miss it now. I really miss. Honestly, I really miss going being in [00:05:55] theatre doing stuff. But it is.

Payman Langroudi: The Max Fox training in India. Did [00:06:00] it get to actual operating or was it just research base?

Gauri Pradhan: No, no, definitely [00:06:05] three years of intensive training on calls. Uh, [00:06:10] you don’t get when you do manual operations.

Payman Langroudi: You were assisting.

Gauri Pradhan: Automatic. [00:06:15]

Payman Langroudi: Um, I mean, everything really. Yeah. Because there’s a lot of need there. Right? You [00:06:20] for for surgery.

Gauri Pradhan: Yes. Yes, yes. So everything was done. Yeah. And, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Why [00:06:25] did you decide to move? You could have had an amazing life in India.

Gauri Pradhan: So I was insistent [00:06:30] not to get married till I got into post-graduation. And, um, [00:06:35] my parents would tell me, find someone, find someone. I would say, no, I don’t want to find someone till [00:06:40] I get into make it into the course. I got into the course and then my brother, my [00:06:45] twin brother started coaxing me. Okay, talk to him. Talk to this guy. He suggested three of his friends. [00:06:50] So he said, talk to this guy. I thought, okay, I have to, you [00:06:55] know, I have to get married. I want to get married. I want to lead a full life. I want to have children. [00:07:00] I want I don’t want to just be career oriented. So I started talking to my husband, [00:07:05] and I always had three questions for the people [00:07:10] who I would eventually be with. And I would ask, do you think you will get a Nobel [00:07:15] Prize? His answer was yes. He [00:07:20] was.

[ALL]: Very confident.

Gauri Pradhan: Then he [00:07:25] said. Then I asked him, who writes Garfield? Because I wanted to test whether if you read a newspaper, [00:07:30] do you really, you know.

[ALL]: Know your stuff.

Gauri Pradhan: Uh, and [00:07:35] he said he gave me the answer, and then I asked him, uh, [00:07:40] do you think we’ll have a swimming pool in our house? He said, of course. And I said, okay, there’s [00:07:45] no reason to say no. So he’s We got talking. And generally [00:07:50] interest doesn’t stay in a person [00:07:55] for a long time because when you keep talking, you understand that maybe it’s [00:08:00] getting boring. And I started talking to him and it never got boring.

Payman Langroudi: More exciting. [00:08:05]

Gauri Pradhan: It never went. It was never exciting, but it never got [00:08:10] to a point where I got bored. Yeah. And he’s he’s a very strong [00:08:15] individual in the sense that he stands by me in everything through the exam, [00:08:20] through ups and downs. He stood by me like a rock. And. [00:08:25]

Payman Langroudi: And you stood by him, right? I’m sure he had exams and things to do.

Gauri Pradhan: I stood by him the little ways I [00:08:30] could. But yes, I did, and, uh. Yeah. So, uh, and, [00:08:35] uh, that kept my twin brother happy. So. Okay, at least this is happening now. So. [00:08:40] Yeah. Then. So he moved to UK.

Payman Langroudi: For his.

Gauri Pradhan: Work, for his work, [00:08:45] because the NHS needed some doctors and he wrote exams and he moved, so I moved. Later, after [00:08:50] I finished my master’s. So that’s how I came to UK.

Payman Langroudi: But you could have had an [00:08:55] amazing life in India, right?

Gauri Pradhan: Yes. Amazing life. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Because with [00:09:00] all the contacts you must have had.

Gauri Pradhan: Yeah, there was loads of contacts I [00:09:05] started. I mean, due to my parents. Uh.

Payman Langroudi: But do [00:09:10] you sometimes think about that or. No.

Gauri Pradhan: I used to. Now I’m at a stage where I think. [00:09:15]

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got an amazing life.

Gauri Pradhan: Here. I have an amazing life.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:09:20] you? I’m Shivani.

Shivani Bhandari: Just simple life. No, I [00:09:25] choose my dentistry because my parents wanted me to become a dentist. So I [00:09:30] didn’t choose it myself.

Payman Langroudi: Where?

Shivani Bhandari: Where? Uh, in in Chandigarh. So I’m from Chandigarh, [00:09:35] and I did my videos from Rohtak. It’s a town in Haryana. And [00:09:40] then I moved here on. Uh, there was poor study [00:09:45] work. You know, the, uh, holiday visa. Two years. So I always wanted to come [00:09:50] abroad, UK or Australia. So I came here and then started [00:09:55] my job as a dental nurse. In Oasis olden days. Oasis now called [00:10:00] Viva. Lovely people in Oasis. I can’t even thank [00:10:05] Julian Perry. It was brilliant. Uh, he’s.

Payman Langroudi: A brilliant.

Shivani Bhandari: Man. He’s a brilliant man. [00:10:10] And just an ash. I can’t forget him as well. So, uh, started my career there in. [00:10:15] I started in Newcastle. Oh, wow.

Payman Langroudi: So different.

Shivani Bhandari: Very [00:10:20] different. The accent you can’t understand. Especially [00:10:25] when you’re coming from India.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but good people. Good people.

Shivani Bhandari: Very nice people. So work [00:10:30] there as a dental nurse and moved to suddenly. Moved to London. [00:10:35] Worked in Kingston.

Payman Langroudi: My real quick, real quick when as a dental nurse. [00:10:40] When you’ve been a dentist already? What insights can [00:10:45] you give dentists? About dental nurses that we don’t normally know?

Shivani Bhandari: So [00:10:50] the insight I would say is you should be nice. Sometimes [00:10:55] dentists are stressed and I understand, but you have to be very nice to [00:11:00] the nurses. And if you express with your nurses or talk more with your [00:11:05] nurses and express what stress your level you’re going through, your day goes quicker and easier [00:11:10] and always. This a gentleman, Anthony Lim I worked with him and he [00:11:15] said to me, I started working as a dental nurse. And it’s very important to work as a dental [00:11:20] nurse initially so that you understand how to how what to expect. If [00:11:25] you don’t work as a nurse, you would not understand what to expect from your nurse. [00:11:30] So you can give clear directions.

Payman Langroudi: And sometimes it’s a massive [00:11:35] part of your current success rate because you understand what a nurse is going through.

[ALL]: Yes. [00:11:40]

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know. We had someone here. Um. Polly. I don’t know if you you. [00:11:45] They have ten practices now. Oh, and she was dental nurse, and she did [00:11:50] a lot of other things. She did, um, sales of toothpaste and so forth. Became European [00:11:55] head of something. But but she they opened their practices, and she puts all of her, um, [00:12:00] success in practice to the fact that she knows what it is to be a dentist. So be nice. [00:12:05] Were some people not nice?

Shivani Bhandari: No. They just. They’re not. They [00:12:10] they’re not able to express what they expect from their nurse.

Payman Langroudi: There’s no communication, no communication. [00:12:15]

Shivani Bhandari: And just if they have a difficult patient, which I [00:12:20] understand. Dentist goes through a lot of stress. I understand a lot of pressure on them. But [00:12:25] if you share the stress and caring and it’s [00:12:30] changing now, and that’s what we don’t do in our practices is we work as a dental [00:12:35] team. The dentists need to understand it’s not you can’t work without a nurse and [00:12:40] you cannot work without a receptionist. So they are the people who are driving [00:12:45] the income to you. So be more nice and understand them more. [00:12:50] And then just telling them this is not right or that’s not [00:12:55] right, or getting angry or not in a wrong way, but it is very important [00:13:00] to look after them as their individual at the end of the day. And [00:13:05] if, like we talk about overseas dentists, goes through a lot of stress [00:13:10] about passing the exam. Even dental nurses cause a lot of stress in passing their exams. [00:13:15] So be nice, help them have a chit chat and understand where [00:13:20] they are coming from as well, and what complications and what problems they [00:13:25] have.

Payman Langroudi: So give me like an example of a situation [00:13:30] where a dentist wasn’t doing that and [00:13:35] sort of what happened. I mean just from my few years, I was in practice [00:13:40] saying thank you to the dental nurse. Such a simple, obvious, [00:13:45] obvious thing right at the end of the day. Say thank you to your dental nurse. The number of nurses [00:13:50] that would say to me, oh, you’re the first one to say thank you. I couldn’t.

[ALL]: Believe it.

Shivani Bhandari: It’s absolutely.

[ALL]: Right.

Shivani Bhandari: Yeah. [00:13:55] They just they don’t say thank you. Like, I remember I used to nurse and [00:14:00] he trained me very well. Um. And he used to say thank you every [00:14:05] day. He used to come early, and I used to come early with him. And he used to keep saying, you don’t need [00:14:10] to come early because I’m early. I want to see my day list. And I used to be there, and he used to every day [00:14:15] thank me. And sometimes small gestures like make a lunch or make a [00:14:20] tea or help me do the instruments. And then if I’m tired [00:14:25] or running late, he will come and I’ll do the chair. I’ll clean the chair. You [00:14:30] go and do your instruments. Small, small things does make a huge difference. And also [00:14:35] sometimes when I’m down, uh, I’ve got some issues at home. Discuss [00:14:40] that. Oh, you look not looking very. This is something happening in your home or help out. [00:14:45] And we used to go out for dinner and, uh, lunch, and he used to [00:14:50] get me lunch. The small, small gestures just make a huge difference.

Payman Langroudi: Now in your practices, everyone has [00:14:55] lunch together every day. Do you provide it?

Shivani Bhandari: No. Everybody.

[ALL]: Sometimes do we do as well [00:15:00] as many days? We do.

Shivani Bhandari: But we normally cook lunch from home. And [00:15:05] everybody brings their home cooked lunch and it’s displayed on a table. Anybody can have [00:15:10] anything. It’s like a.

[ALL]: Pot.

Payman Langroudi: It’s like a family.

Shivani Bhandari: Just like a family. And we, [00:15:15] uh, this is the key things we ask in the interview. And we say that we like [00:15:20] to have lunch together. And we also celebrate every festival. So we are multicultural. [00:15:25] So if it is Diwali or is it a Christmas? [00:15:30] And if it is Eid, we all celebrate all the festivals together, [00:15:35] which makes a huge difference. And like Holy, this year we went out to [00:15:40] play Holi and all. Everyone joined. Everybody joined in and.

Payman Langroudi: Explained Holi [00:15:45] for people who don’t.

Shivani Bhandari: Know it’s festival of colours. So where you put colours on each other [00:15:50] and have a lot of trinkets.

Payman Langroudi: Interestingly, [00:15:55] I used to when we started this company, it was the time when, you know, Google and all those companies [00:16:00] were starting and they had all. I mean, it turned out that the real the reality is nothing like [00:16:05] what I thought. But I thought Google was all about, hey, ping pong tables and having lunch together [00:16:10] and a family and all of all of that. Right. And, um, recently [00:16:15] I’ve been talking in this environment to a lot of people. Right. So there was a guy, [00:16:20] you know, he’s, you know, Pearl, I.

Shivani Bhandari: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:16:25] CEO of Pearl, I is a super brain, super brain that was working on [00:16:30] AI since 2007 billion $2 billion exit [00:16:35] from the company. That was it was a they were they were using AI to look at logos online. [00:16:40] And so, you know, Manchester United sponsors a team. They see their logo and measures the [00:16:45] amount of time the logos been going around being watched. Use that technology to do poll. [00:16:50] I you know, now that guy asked him this question because I was [00:16:55] suffering with it myself. I said, look, you know, we try and have a family atmosphere and sometimes you have to [00:17:00] fire someone who maybe a year before laid [00:17:05] their life down for you. Yeah. Sometimes you have to fire that [00:17:10] person. I was in that situation. That person had done something unbelievable [00:17:15] the year before. I remember thinking to myself, she’s with me forever. Yeah. And then [00:17:20] a year forward. The job had taken over her skills. Yeah. [00:17:25] And I thought she needed to go. And I was asking this guy, [00:17:30] have you ever had that situation where you have to fire someone, even though they’ve been brilliant at [00:17:35] some point? And he said, every single person I fire is that person. And I said, what do you mean? [00:17:40] He goes, I think I’ve done that 220 times. Wow. I said, what do you mean? And he said, and he [00:17:45] said, look, in a proper company, because by the time it gets to me, it’s [00:17:50] definitely that situation, because before that situation, their manager will fire them and they won’t, [00:17:55] even if they’re just bad. Yeah, yeah. But so then when he said that and he said about, you know, and there’s [00:18:00] this thing about a pro sports team as opposed to a family. Yeah. Because you [00:18:05] can’t expel people from your family. Yes. Whereas in a pro sports team, it’s about [00:18:10] who’s good at what they do. Yes. You know, and then in a family, you can’t say [00:18:15] I love my son more than I love my daughter. But in a pro sports team, you can say that [00:18:20] guy is better than this guy because he is whatever. You know, whatever team he.

Gauri Pradhan: I [00:18:25] think, you know, in our profession, um, Maybe underperformance [00:18:30] would not be an issue. Uh, but when it comes to, uh, [00:18:35] patient safety, then that is the point [00:18:40] we look at.

Payman Langroudi: But what if it’s something less than safety? What if it’s rude to a patient? [00:18:45]

Shivani Bhandari: Yes.

Gauri Pradhan: There’s disciplinary for that.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, but, you know, [00:18:50] they’re constantly rude to a patient. So now I want to get rid of this person because I don’t like being rude to my patients.

Shivani Bhandari: So [00:18:55] we had a situation where we had to ask somebody to leave. And, [00:19:00] uh, we had the conversation with that person. We went through the procedure and had the conversation. [00:19:05] Look, it’s not working. We have gone through so many times. We [00:19:10] are in touch with each other still now. And I don’t think it’s working. [00:19:15] So we shake hands and, uh. And he he understands that person who [00:19:20] left us. We had to ask him to leave. And we’re still in contact.

Gauri Pradhan: I’m still in contact.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:19:25] there’s an element of that family. Even when you need something.

Gauri Pradhan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which is beautiful.

Shivani Bhandari: Because [00:19:30] it’s not only about. Yes, the the person had done the job for that [00:19:35] certain time period. Now things are not working. So probably that person’s personal [00:19:40] circumstances have changed. You never know. And or person attitude has changed [00:19:45] or is or the person is stressed. And dentistry is a stressful business and I understand [00:19:50] that.

Payman Langroudi: So by the way, let me help you find another job, right. You know, if you really if [00:19:55] you really like someone.

Shivani Bhandari: Yeah, yeah. So we do we did that. So when we asked [00:20:00] the person to leave and I put him through a couple of other people [00:20:05] and said, try their but don’t do the same mistake again. [00:20:10] Yeah. So and we still in contact and it works. So it’s, it’s a family [00:20:15] and.

Payman Langroudi: It’s one of you the good cop and one of you the bad cop.

Gauri Pradhan: Oh, I think we swap [00:20:20] roles ever so often. Oh, really? Um. And I think we love doing that.

Shivani Bhandari: It [00:20:25] just.

Payman Langroudi: Works. Who’s the good cop right now?

Shivani Bhandari: We [00:20:30] both had the good cop.

Payman Langroudi: Look on your eye. Could have been on a podcast. [00:20:35] Could tell me the rest of the story.

Shivani Bhandari: So, [00:20:40] uh, where was I? Uh, so.

Payman Langroudi: You just, uh, started practising, and. [00:20:45]

Shivani Bhandari: Yes, I started working in, uh, Oasis in, uh, [00:20:50] Hampton Hill. And I had a lovely manager who saw [00:20:55] the potential in me, and she said, why don’t you go on the PM Academy [00:21:00] and become the you can become a practice manager. And at that [00:21:05] time, I was thinking, should I give my exams or not? And I gave my exam [00:21:10] once and I failed.

Payman Langroudi: So I had exam.

Shivani Bhandari: Your damn hard exam.

Payman Langroudi: Famously. Difficulty? [00:21:15]

Shivani Bhandari: Yes. And then I thought, do I need to go through the stress? My dentist go through the stress through. [00:21:20] And I thought, no, I don’t want to. I’d rather choose my career and [00:21:25] move to the pathway of the management.

Payman Langroudi: So the decision, right?

Shivani Bhandari: Yes. [00:21:30] Big decision, big decision.

Payman Langroudi: I remember when I stopped practising, there was [00:21:35] absolutely no need for me to continue practising, but I couldn’t bring myself to stop. [00:21:40] And one of my friends sort of gave me permission and he kind of said, oh, look, if you want to come [00:21:45] back and be a dentist. And almost that was like a revelation because you feel like it’s a big [00:21:50] decision.

Shivani Bhandari: Big decision.

Payman Langroudi: Did you decide that’s it. I’m not going to draw teeth again. Were you thinking [00:21:55] I could always go back or.

Shivani Bhandari: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: Actually were all in on the.

Shivani Bhandari: All.

Payman Langroudi: In management.

Shivani Bhandari: Management [00:22:00] and I enjoy it. I really enjoyed and I really enjoyed people, so [00:22:05] I liked talking to people. I also joke between us that I like in [00:22:10] the night time. I’m probably talking to all the employees.

Gauri Pradhan: She talks to everyone all [00:22:15] evening. She’ll be on the phone. So interesting.

Payman Langroudi: And let me tell you, let me tell you a revelation I had [00:22:20] today. Yeah. I sit in this room talking to. I mean, I like you guys, but strangers. [00:22:25] Yeah. Getting their stories. And I don’t sit with my team and [00:22:30] get and get their stories. And so just today, I called our HR person and I said, arrange 15 [00:22:35] minute appointments with every single person. Because because of that. Yeah. You know, because of that. Yeah. [00:22:40] So they’ll tell me this as a non clinical. Yeah. One thing I found out [00:22:45] was that when it really crystallises what it was about dentistry that [00:22:50] I loved and what it was about dentistry that I hated only when I stopped. Yeah. [00:22:55] I didn’t realise it when I was there. Because you miss it. The things you miss. And there are [00:23:00] things you don’t miss. Yeah. What is it for you?

Shivani Bhandari: So, uh. Dentistry. [00:23:05] I’m sorry. I’m not known to be, I know dentistry. You are looking at the patient. But [00:23:10] what all organisation makes to happens behind [00:23:15] the scenes to get that patient in the chair. Very true. [00:23:20] Nobody acknowledges that. We acknowledge that the dentist is done the treatment. [00:23:25] Oh, very nice feeling. I’m sorry I.

Payman Langroudi: Understood.

Shivani Bhandari: But how much [00:23:30] hard work it takes to get that patient from the phone call. And, [00:23:35] uh, if they are angry, if they’re not very happy to calm them [00:23:40] down.

Payman Langroudi: Everything, right?

Shivani Bhandari: Everything.

Payman Langroudi: Everything it took to make that building work. [00:23:45]

Shivani Bhandari: Yes. The whole premises work. And, uh, so that the patient can be [00:23:50] in the chair. And also, I realised while doing practice manager, you not only [00:23:55] a practice manager, you are a DIY person. You have to fix things. You can’t just say, [00:24:00] oh, this chair is not working or get the engineer. No, you have to get in and fix [00:24:05] it.

Payman Langroudi: So I had the CEO of Bupa here who put dental dental [00:24:10] care and he was a, you know, proper executive, right? He’d come from the insurance [00:24:15] world. They they run call centres to call up people and you’ve done a bunch [00:24:20] of stuff in corporate. And he said that the practice manager role is [00:24:25] the hardest role he’s ever seen in all of the things he’s seen, and he’s seen loads of stuff outside [00:24:30] of dentistry. It’s a big role.

Shivani Bhandari: It is a big role, and it’s like a business development manager because [00:24:35] you look at the PNL sheets, you need.

Payman Langroudi: To many different variables.

Shivani Bhandari: Different things. [00:24:40] And, and people are always trained me very well. And I, they, [00:24:45] they just they gave me the opportunity. And in the span of six months after [00:24:50] being a practice manager, I was dual site manager. Really. Then I was doing the compliance bit. [00:24:55] So doing the compliance for the area and then.

Payman Langroudi: You just find you really love [00:25:00] operations.

Shivani Bhandari: Yes, I do love operations.

Payman Langroudi: For me, I hate operations. So well [00:25:05] done, well done, well done, well done. We’ve got someone like that here. The whole [00:25:10] place would fall apart the day after she goes on holiday.

Gauri Pradhan: That’s happened [00:25:15] when she goes on holiday.

Shivani Bhandari: No, no. I’m sure these guys look after. [00:25:20] We’ve got a third business partner, Anuja, as well. Sometimes we make wrong decisions, [00:25:25] and she’s the one who tells. Oh, no, this is not the right decision. So that’s a good. And the [00:25:30] beauty about our friendship and our business partnership is that nobody [00:25:35] is going a designated job role.

Gauri Pradhan: Which is very rare because when we were [00:25:40] going into business.

Payman Langroudi: How.

Gauri Pradhan: Many years is it? Five plus?

Shivani Bhandari: Five plus?

Gauri Pradhan: Uh, [00:25:45] everyone said, and I don’t know why.

Payman Langroudi: Make it clear what the responsibility.

Gauri Pradhan: Yes, yes. And [00:25:50] generally we were talking to men and then we [00:25:55] said, look, we were women. We know how to make a family work, and, [00:26:00] uh, we don’t need rules. And she came up and she said, no, [00:26:05] we are not having designated jobs at all. We’re just going to chip in. So I’ve [00:26:10] been a dental nurse for six months as well before I was living here. So I know where she’s coming, where [00:26:15] Shivani is coming from. From wiping the chair. There’s a point in time, I think this was [00:26:20] three years back when we just opened a second Scott practice and dental care. [00:26:25] And we were from cleaning the place up to doing the toilets to, [00:26:30] um, wiping the chair down, to doing to doing reception. We [00:26:35] would all three of us were doing everything. So there was an instance where I took a patient [00:26:40] in after, uh, booking him in, I took a patient in and he was sort [00:26:45] of waiting for the dentist to come in. And so I put on my gloves and he said. He said what? I [00:26:50] said, look, I do everything. I’m underpaid, but I do everything. I am a qualified dentist. So [00:26:55] that was one instance we remember when we just go into practice. [00:27:00] And and I think leadership is also about that, that when, [00:27:05] uh, a dentist or a practice manager or the owner comes in and starts cleaning [00:27:10] the toilet, okay, this needs to be done or does the utensils, we just go and it’s a [00:27:15] full day.

Shivani Bhandari: So it’s still it’s still the same. Whenever we go to the practice, you’ll end [00:27:20] up go to the reception. Yeah. Or we’ll making teas on coffees. [00:27:25] Actually, that reminds me, when we open Saint Paul’s practice and I would say NHS [00:27:30] did the same to us. There was a gentleman called Mr. Wavell. He [00:27:35] is the commissioner, and he didn’t help because there were thousands of patients outside. And bless [00:27:40] him, he made a cup of tea for us and we can never forget that. It’s a very small gesture. [00:27:45] Absolutely. You cannot forget that. So that’s all the bottom [00:27:50] line is. Small gesture makes a difference. Not gift cards, not gift vouchers [00:27:55] or gifts. It is just small, small gestures which will make our [00:28:00] work culture to be very nice and [00:28:05] supportive.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, now we’ll go through your story because [00:28:10] I saw something about that, and I was interested in it. But I do want to. While we’re here [00:28:15] in this subject, talk about the first practice. What [00:28:20] was. Like gimme, gimme. From the moment of. We should open a practice.

Gauri Pradhan: Do [00:28:25] the first.

Payman Langroudi: Thing that they opened. I mean, let’s talk savings, risk [00:28:30] finding a site. What kind of practice is it going to be? Hiring people, [00:28:35] doing the place? Like what? Just give me some.

Gauri Pradhan: First practice was already running when we bought it.

Payman Langroudi: We bought [00:28:40] an existing.

Gauri Pradhan: We bought the existing practice.

Payman Langroudi: And you were looking for one like.

Gauri Pradhan: We were actively [00:28:45] looking. We had seen a few practices.

Payman Langroudi: One of the contract.

Gauri Pradhan: One with the contract, uh, [00:28:50] we call it this was 20 2020.

Payman Langroudi: After Covid.

Shivani Bhandari: After [00:28:55] Covid, during Covid, during Covid.

Gauri Pradhan: This was during Covid. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:29:00] a time to open.

Gauri Pradhan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Who would have thought it like I remember thinking these practices were all [00:29:05] in massive danger at the same time. You were opening a practice and you were right and I was wrong, [00:29:10] you know, to be the time to open.

Shivani Bhandari: Can I just jump in that Covid time? [00:29:15] Me and Gauri, when? No. All the dentists were off work because they were not mask [00:29:20] fitted. Yeah. We went all over UK.

Payman Langroudi: Fitting, mask.

Gauri Pradhan: Fitting, mask and [00:29:25] that we used to do for the first charity. We ran free of cost. We would just pick up the [00:29:30] car, Shivani would drive most of the time and we would just go fit testing so that things can [00:29:35] start moving.

Payman Langroudi: You think like coming from India where a lot of. I remember in Iran when once [00:29:40] when I was a kid, the car just stopped for whatever reason it was, and literally [00:29:45] 27 people jumped in and pushed it, and somebody came and pulled the petrol [00:29:50] from his car and put it into to our car. And because there is no air. Yeah. Or [00:29:55] so do you think that’s the reason why you have the skills that you have? Because maybe in India.

Gauri Pradhan: You just. [00:30:00]

Payman Langroudi: Get up and go, yeah, get it done any which way.

Gauri Pradhan: Yeah I think, yeah. [00:30:05] Uh, even our, um, dental nurses. Everyone [00:30:10] who works with us are the same. And the reason why they stick [00:30:15] on and want to be with us is one way Shivani came up with this idea. We [00:30:20] do, uh, test sessions for them before we actually sign the contract. [00:30:25] We pay them for it.

Payman Langroudi: Like a half day. Whatever.

Gauri Pradhan: A full [00:30:30] day, a few weeks, a few days come and work. See how you feel. You [00:30:35] might not, like, end up liking us, or we might not end up liking [00:30:40] you. We want to see how you gel with the team because that is most important. And if we don’t do that, [00:30:45] we generally don’t sign a contract with them. So unless it’s a really required locum [00:30:50] or something.

Payman Langroudi: And the business model, just the type of practice that you like to run, [00:30:55] is it the type that has a big NHS list and you’re selling loads of private to those patients? [00:31:00] Or is it not that.

Gauri Pradhan: It is not that we generally aim at the NHS? [00:31:05] We are NHS oriented, totally, but obviously through the GDC [00:31:10] rules and the dentists wants to earn a bit more. Obviously, uh, [00:31:15] we have to give the options of private. We do private, we do amazingly well with a few [00:31:20] private things, but, uh.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not focussed on that aspect.

Gauri Pradhan: We’re not focussed on that. No. [00:31:25]

Payman Langroudi: On purpose.

Shivani Bhandari: Yes. Because our vision is, uh, gory is, uh, [00:31:30] when we met together and our vision was we believe in NHS, right? Uh, because, [00:31:35] uh, mainly because of Gauri is vision. I let her speak on that.

Gauri Pradhan: So, [00:31:40] uh, when we were younger, when I was young, uh, [00:31:45] we came to the UK with dad, who did Max fax in Morriston Hospital with Adrian Sugar. [00:31:50] And yes.

Payman Langroudi: I studied in Cardiff.

Gauri Pradhan: Yes, yes. Um, and, [00:31:55] um, we, uh, he would rave about NHS [00:32:00] because it is a brilliant system and it is free to the [00:32:05] point of delivery. So. People [00:32:10] asked him to stay over and he said, no, I want to go back to India and make something [00:32:15] like this for. Oh, really? Right. So we went back within a year and a half year. [00:32:20] And, uh, I think that is where I picked it up from. [00:32:25] Uh, so he opened he there was a max fax department already, but he opened a [00:32:30] ward. He made the system work through the government, like the NHS. So [00:32:35] I think that’s where I picked it up from. And ever since it’s been with me [00:32:40] that. No, it is, and it is a matter of pride to work with the NHS. Like, like [00:32:45] most people feel that, oh, I won’t get you money, it won’t, it won’t give you [00:32:50] any results. But I think even if you manage to [00:32:55] help one patient out in that list, you can sleep better. So I [00:33:00] think it’s always.

Payman Langroudi: Refreshing to hear this, right. Because most dentists, most people [00:33:05] who sit in this room, as soon as I say the word NHS, their face sort of scrunches up. And I’d [00:33:10] say 99% of the younger dentists.

Gauri Pradhan: Do [00:33:15] not want.

Payman Langroudi: The. They’re saying, how can I get out immediately? And it’s nice [00:33:20] to hear this story. And you were telling me that you also have too many applicants for your jobs. [00:33:25]

Gauri Pradhan: And yes, we have a lot of applicants because but it is all word of mouth.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s [00:33:30] just get into like, what are the ingredients that make a happy NHS practice? [00:33:35] Okay. Look after people, your team and all that. Um, [00:33:40] from the dentist perspective where you’re just getting paid not enough at all for each thing. [00:33:45] What is the story like? Are you saying.

Gauri Pradhan: That ties in very much with what Shivani says. When [00:33:50] you you spend more than half your life at work? Yeah. And if you aren’t happy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:33:55] So what makes it happy? I mean, so do they have the complaint that they can’t do the kind of dentistry they [00:34:00] want to do?

Shivani Bhandari: So we to start off with I know the pay structure, what you were talking about. [00:34:05] We use the whole workforce. Yeah. So we, uh, we use therapist, [00:34:10] model therapist, nurses, hygienist and the dentist. So [00:34:15] we consider everybody therapist and hygienist associates as well. So [00:34:20] they are an associate to the practice and they send the referral to the dentist. So [00:34:25] they do the direct access. They will do whatever is in their scope. [00:34:30] And then what is not in their scope, they’ll pass it on to the dentist. And this [00:34:35] culture which we have created as even the therapists [00:34:40] feel good about it. And that’s why we have a waiting list, because most [00:34:45] of the places what I’ve heard is dentists don’t trust the therapist work and [00:34:50] they say, oh, I won’t take a referral from the therapist. I will see the patient first. I [00:34:55] will do it, and then I’ll pass it on. What I can’t do to the therapist, Pest, which [00:35:00] we change the culture in our practices. So it’s all direct access. So therapist sees the patient [00:35:05] first and then it passes on to the dentist. So that’s made it more profitable. And [00:35:10] that’s why we we want to discuss more. If anybody wants to work on that model [00:35:15] that way the NHS would work. That is one thing. The other thing is that, [00:35:20] um, they they are well respected in the practice. Everybody [00:35:25] is well respected. That makes a huge difference. And also a personal like [00:35:30] we have most of overseas qualified dentists and when they come from India or [00:35:35] anywhere else other countries, they don’t know basic things bank accounts, how to open a bank [00:35:40] account, how to open a limited company, how to file your tax, how to get a driving [00:35:45] licence, how to buy a house. So all these things we go through [00:35:50] personally with them and we’re not like, I’m not an accountant and I’m [00:35:55] not an either risk or read accountant, but we share our personal experiences, and [00:36:00] the reason why we did that is when we came to this country, especially.

Payman Langroudi: When I was telling you.

Shivani Bhandari: This. [00:36:05] Yeah, nobody told us. And I remember my first job, I, I asked [00:36:10] somebody to take a, I need to go to a job. And they said, take a bus. Uh, it was [00:36:15] I think EU seven. And I took it in the opposite direction. So nobody [00:36:20] told me the bus stop as well. So things like that. So we, we go an extra [00:36:25] mile to help.

Payman Langroudi: So can you explain to me what do you tell the patient about therapists? [00:36:30] Do you, do you discuss it that this is a therapist? This isn’t the dentist? [00:36:35]

Shivani Bhandari: Yes. So that’s that’s when we when anybody comes and joins us for seven days, they’re [00:36:40] not allowed to work. They are. They have to shadow somebody. And the first [00:36:45] key things we go through that the reception tells them on the the first [00:36:50] point of contact, our website tells them it’s a direct access and also the [00:36:55] when they come in the surgery. The first thing. They all say I’m a dental [00:37:00] therapist. I will be seeing you today and I will look after. So that’s [00:37:05] what we say. And even the receptionist clearly says there’s a shortage of dentists. [00:37:10] But we can book you with the therapist. He will do the check-up and whatever is in his [00:37:15] scope, he will. He or she will do it and it will pass down to the dentist, whatever is not in the [00:37:20] scope. So everybody is inclined that what to say. So and the patients are very. [00:37:25] They really like.

Gauri Pradhan: It. They like at least they’ve got access. As early as [00:37:30] the fillings got done. And, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Can you still man the other side of it? Like if there’s [00:37:35] someone who says, I’m really unhappy about this situation, that now the NHS is being [00:37:40] handled by therapists, we have what is the. We’ve had that what what what would you say is [00:37:45] the most compelling argument.

Gauri Pradhan: Well, when you go to a GP, sometimes [00:37:50] you don’t get to see a doctor. You get to see a practitioner. I hate that. Yeah. [00:37:55] Yeah. But then there are, I mean, equally learned [00:38:00] or maybe not equally learned, but they they have been through the process of [00:38:05] learning what they’re going to do. And they have that’s how the team will [00:38:10] function. Not everybody. The dentist can’t do everything and shouldn’t be doing everything. The therapists [00:38:15] can’t do everything and shouldn’t be doing everything. The workload has to be shared. And if [00:38:20] the patient doesn’t understand that, they probably look for another part. We have had instances where [00:38:25] the patient has complained that I wanted to see a dentist, and we calmly explained [00:38:30] to them that, look, this is the way it is going to function.

Payman Langroudi: And yeah, but you’re making [00:38:35] the case for your model to make the opposite case.

Shivani Bhandari: So, uh, so opposite case [00:38:40] where the patient is saying that they want to see the dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Only and they’re right.

Shivani Bhandari: And they’re right. Yeah.

Gauri Pradhan: They [00:38:45] see if they are right, if they’re at a clinical position where it needs to [00:38:50] be seen by a dentist, the patient.

Payman Langroudi: Needs to make the case for this model being incorrect. So what [00:38:55] would be? What would be the part of this model that’s most to most, most difficult? [00:39:00] Because let’s talk about it. Yeah, I turn up I want to see a dentist. I don’t see a dentist. Right. So [00:39:05] already I came to see a dentist. I’m not seeing a dentist. Right. So then there’s one thing.

Shivani Bhandari: What else? [00:39:10] So we explained to the patient. Sorry. It is, uh, the the way we [00:39:15] work in our practice, it is always a dental therapist. You’ve been seen by a dental therapist. Unfortunately, [00:39:20] that is our situation. That’s how we work. Yeah. I understand [00:39:25] you want to see a dentist, but a dental therapist is is qualified enough to do [00:39:30] it. And, uh, for example, if we have, uh, overseas qualified.

Payman Langroudi: In [00:39:35] the case for. I don’t want you to make the case for them all, I want you to make the opposite case.

Shivani Bhandari: Oh, I want to make an opposite case. [00:39:40]

Payman Langroudi: So let me give you, I don’t know, some some. Someone’s got an actual situation. That therapist. Mrs.. [00:39:45]

Gauri Pradhan: So that does happen. Yeah. I mean, obviously mistakes happen.

Payman Langroudi: That’s an obvious. [00:39:50]

Gauri Pradhan: What else? So we put the I mean, it is flagged up. Shivani will get a call or I will get [00:39:55] a call then. And we are then on to booking that patient [00:40:00] with a dentist. We definitely see that. But obviously waiting [00:40:05] time for a dentist is more. We make the patient aware that.

Payman Langroudi: The downside of the model.

Shivani Bhandari: The [00:40:10] downside of the model is.

Gauri Pradhan: Uh, the apart from [00:40:15] if, uh, there are so many reviews being booked in with the dentist, that [00:40:20] is the downside, where the dentist is constantly seeing reviews after reviews [00:40:25] because the patient needs an extraction or a drainage or a extraction of [00:40:30] pulp. That’s what I would put down as a downside. But if [00:40:35] we are referred from the GP to the uh, secondary care, [00:40:40] uh, hospital or tertiary care and uh, there’s a bit of waiting [00:40:45] to be done unless the patient is in severe pain. And that is something that patient [00:40:50] has. Doesn’t have to, but, uh, there’s a need for acceptance [00:40:55] for that.

Shivani Bhandari: I think so the downside, if it’s not rightly triaged by the reception. [00:41:00] So if it is wrongly triaged by the reception.

Payman Langroudi: What.

Shivani Bhandari: Happened? Yeah. It happens.

Gauri Pradhan: It.

Shivani Bhandari: Happens, [00:41:05] it happens. And then you have to then, uh, make the space in [00:41:10] the diary of the dentist and try.

Payman Langroudi: And the flow of it.

Shivani Bhandari: Just just disrupt the flow. And it does [00:41:15] happen. So that’s why we have.

Payman Langroudi: To get dentists to when you’re telling them all of this, that they [00:41:20] don’t like the idea and you have to explain it to them.

Shivani Bhandari: Oh, surprisingly, no. [00:41:25]

Payman Langroudi: So like the idea, they only.

Shivani Bhandari: Like so in the interview process, [00:41:30] we clearly say that that you will get referrals from the therapist. And [00:41:35] that is why when Gorey said that we do a trial day, so we do [00:41:40] a trial day. So and also we engage the therapist. We have a WhatsApp group with [00:41:45] the therapist and the dentist together Where they communicate on the WhatsApp [00:41:50] group clearly that what is what you like? How do you want? So [00:41:55] everything is explained to the therapist by the dentist how they like things to be reviewed. [00:42:00] So yes, there is. Another downside is that the patient journey is longer, [00:42:05] which I totally agree that obviously, like Gauri said about the reviews [00:42:10] and everything, the journey is longer, but we apologise to the patient and that’s the situation. [00:42:15]

Payman Langroudi: You know about the Harvard triangle? Yeah. You know there’s there’s quality [00:42:20] in one corner, price in the other corner. Yeah. And then speed [00:42:25] is the other corner. Yeah. And you can only have two of the three. You can’t have all three. [00:42:30] Yeah. And so that’s what you’re saying there. You’re saying look we’re trying to give quality yes [00:42:35] and price but it can’t be done quickly. Quickly. Yes. It’s a very interesting.

Shivani Bhandari: Yeah. [00:42:40] So that’s that’s yeah it delays the patient and then it’s multiple appointments. [00:42:45] So that’s a downside. But instead of argument’s [00:42:50] sake, I can look at this way. Would you rather see the patient or not [00:42:55] see the patient so the access increases?

Payman Langroudi: It’s just it’s just a good, good, good kind of, um, [00:43:00] thought process. Yeah. Like, I could I could say to you, what’s the downside of, uh, being [00:43:05] a mother of two kids and married? Yeah, there are downsides. There are? Yeah. I can’t get up and go to Thailand [00:43:10] tomorrow.

[ALL]: Yeah, well.

Shivani Bhandari: I’ll tell you, I can’t.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:43:15] old are.

Shivani Bhandari: You? So mine is one is 15 and one is eight. So yeah, [00:43:20] they’re young, so I would love to go to Thailand. I’m not in Australia. My [00:43:25] friend told me yesterday he’s going to Australia. So there’s another way [00:43:30] to look at it is that all these newly qualified dentists want to [00:43:35] become specialists. Yeah. Nobody wants to become general dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Does that.

Shivani Bhandari: Bother you? Yes. [00:43:40] It does bother me a lot because our bread and butter is [00:43:45] general industry. You cannot go into specialisation. You just [00:43:50] qualified. You can’t.

Payman Langroudi: Here in America, they do.

[ALL]: It.

Payman Langroudi: In [00:43:55] America. They go straight from dental school to a to a pros program.

Shivani Bhandari: Yeah, but.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s [00:44:00] the most common route to a pilot program is straight from dental.

Gauri Pradhan: School. You understand it. But unless [00:44:05] you have done the ten fillings or the 20 extractions, uh, [00:44:10] under some sort of.

Payman Langroudi: Pressure extraction, they, they pass it on to [00:44:15] the oral surgeon, you know.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Gauri Pradhan: Yeah, that’s a different system of working. But unless you know the basics [00:44:20] so.

Payman Langroudi: Well, I get the. I kind of understand what you mean, because, you know, we need more dentists. And, hey, [00:44:25] dentists should learn how to do the basic, I get it. Yeah, but I, you know, I’ve, I’ve focussed [00:44:30] in on one molecule. Yeah. Hydrogen peroxide.

[ALL]: Yeah. That’s that’s great. [00:44:35]

Payman Langroudi: I focussed in on that one molecule.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So you couldn’t focus in on anything you want. [00:44:40] But even some of the wonderful things about our, our profession, you know that you can go into management. [00:44:45] You can go into, you know, high level max facts and then own three practices. It’s a. [00:44:50]

[ALL]: Beautiful thing. That’s true.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a beautiful, beautiful thing.

[ALL]: Yeah. Yeah.

Shivani Bhandari: It’s just that I’m just thinking [00:44:55] more people are running away from general dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. So I get a lot of [00:45:00] youngsters saying to me, I just want to do Invisalign, and they’re just qualified.

Shivani Bhandari: Yeah. Or Instagram [00:45:05] dentist. Yeah. So I don’t hate it though. I don’t know I like it, but, [00:45:10] you know, it should be. You should learn it. So we had a candidate [00:45:15] who was very keen and came out from, uh, just doing the VTT.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:45:20] got to do it right?

[ALL]: Yeah. You have to get in. Of course. Yeah.

Gauri Pradhan: It’s like a bit like we were having [00:45:25] this discussion yesterday. It’s like kids knowing how to use AI. And [00:45:30] there will be a point where they will not know how to text because everything [00:45:35] they will not know how to think, because everything is, uh, [00:45:40] done by the AI. Eye. Unless that pressure has been put into you to [00:45:45] learn everything. Where to put the comma. Where to put the full stop in a sentence. Unless [00:45:50] you.

[ALL]: Know.

Payman Langroudi: In French. I know what you mean. I know what you mean. At the same time, I’m. I’m massively encouraging my kids [00:45:55] to cheat their homework with.

[ALL]: They are like.

Payman Langroudi: Massive.

[ALL]: Are you?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:46:00] because. Because the skill they’re learning on the homework is nowhere near as important as the skill they’re learning on the I. And [00:46:05] no, it’s not I don’t think it’s even in the same ballpark. I was teaching my daughter [00:46:10] how to cheat her geography. Um, homework. Yeah. And and the schools made [00:46:15] a rule. No, I and I showed her how to, you know, there’s a humanised dot dot I. [00:46:20] Yeah, that changes the AI to human.

[ALL]: Human beings.

Payman Langroudi: To, you know, manage that [00:46:25] as.

[ALL]: Well.

Payman Langroudi: But the what she was learning in geography wasn’t bad. It wasn’t bad, actually. [00:46:30] But the the process of getting the answer from I changing it to a 15 [00:46:35] year old’s answer.

[ALL]: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Because the answer was way too ridiculous. It was [00:46:40] just, you know, it was better than the teacher.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Understanding that’s what she would need to do. Like with working that out [00:46:45] and yeah, I in general.

[ALL]: Yeah, it is it.

Gauri Pradhan: Is a great.

[ALL]: Tool.

Payman Langroudi: It’s such an important [00:46:50] skill to learn to use it. Learn to use it. Have you, have you tried the paid versions. [00:46:55]

Shivani Bhandari: Oh yeah.

[ALL]: Yeah I use it for the diffusion.

Shivani Bhandari: I do the ChatGPT paid [00:47:00] version. I do.

[ALL]: The $20.21.

Shivani Bhandari: Yeah. And I do the deep search as well. And I, [00:47:05] I did the same for my son as well. Yeah I said, I told him, I said go from one, I go to other.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:47:10] mean you’re very technical, right? I remember when Google came out, yet I spent about half an hour [00:47:15] on the ad product, and I actually managed to put an ad out, like after [00:47:20] it was actually an hour and a half with my friend on the phone, and then I just didn’t [00:47:25] touch it again. I just forgot all about it. And and Google happened, you know, that that whole part of [00:47:30] the internet happened, you know?

[ALL]: Yeah. So it’s.

Gauri Pradhan: Great.

[ALL]: It’s great.

Gauri Pradhan: I still stand [00:47:35] by my argument.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I get what you’re saying. Insomuch as Picasso had to learn [00:47:40] how to draw like a photorealistic thing before he became Picasso.

Gauri Pradhan: Getting [00:47:45] correct in the first goal, you have to let your give your brain that time [00:47:50] to develop and evolve. When that connection is made in the brain [00:47:55] to learn something, that learning skill, that skill needs to be developed [00:48:00] and honed. If I does it all for you, you have actually slapped [00:48:05] a part of the brain away. Not learning something, whether it’s language, [00:48:10] whether it’s maths.

[ALL]: That’s that’s the future, but that is the future.

Payman Langroudi: We don’t need that part of. [00:48:15]

[ALL]: Your brain.

Gauri Pradhan: But it is.

Payman Langroudi: Your brain for something much more like important. [00:48:20]

[ALL]: Yeah.

Gauri Pradhan: But if that is the future, I [00:48:25] am scared because it is so collapsible. At any point where [00:48:30] you are in a situation where you can’t use AI and you have to really put [00:48:35] it down yourself, And then what does.

[ALL]: What do.

Payman Langroudi: You do? You do acknowledge your grandfather was saying the same thing [00:48:40] about radio.

[ALL]: I do, I do, I.

Gauri Pradhan: Do, I do, but I still. [00:48:45]

[ALL]: Feel.

Payman Langroudi: The father’s grandfather was saying it about some some farming.

[ALL]: I’m not against [00:48:50] you. I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Have to learn to do it with your.

[ALL]: Hand first. And when the games came out. [00:48:55]

Gauri Pradhan: I’m not against, I don’t get me wrong, but I am [00:49:00] totally for, uh, having those brain basics [00:49:05] clear in the head so that, you know, you have a edge above I [00:49:10] telling it what to do, not just giving it everything so that [00:49:15] you can be free.

Payman Langroudi: I realised. Look in the prompt engineering space. Yeah. Telling, [00:49:20] asking it to ask me 20 questions about the subject I’m about [00:49:25] to talk about before I ask it.

[ALL]: What to do.

Payman Langroudi: What to do. It’s such a beautiful [00:49:30] thing because.

Gauri Pradhan: If you haven’t tried.

Payman Langroudi: That, you don’t have to think about those 20 things, right? You just say, Just. Just ask me. [00:49:35] I’m interested in this. This and this. Yeah. Ask me some questions so you can understand me better. And then ask the best [00:49:40] questions. Gemini are like.

[ALL]: Yeah, Gemini. Gemini is good.

Shivani Bhandari: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So no, [00:49:45] no.

[ALL]: Let’s.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move on to sorry.

[ALL]: Go on.

Shivani Bhandari: No, no, that’s what I’m not against. I [00:49:50] love technology a lot. And that’s why I’m gonna leave it to go to. We have [00:49:55] got an app. Yeah it is DPS UK, which is a first patient facing [00:50:00] app designed by Gauri and, uh.

[ALL]: Which explains everything. [00:50:05]

Payman Langroudi: What is.

[ALL]: It?

Shivani Bhandari: What is it? So it’s a it’s a patient facing app where for a dentist where [00:50:10] you can actually go online and book appointments, view [00:50:15] your past appointments, update your medical history. So all this thing has gone [00:50:20] out where you have to do these things. When you come to the practice and send consent [00:50:25] forms to the patient. And if you had an Invisalign scan, for example, you can [00:50:30] send the after on the app so everything is on the app. It’s notifications. [00:50:35] So a it decreases the price totally for the practice. There’s no [00:50:40] text messages and it’s with the future and [00:50:45] integrated with the AI. That’s what is.

Payman Langroudi: And is it integrated [00:50:50] with the practice management support.

Shivani Bhandari: Absolutely. It is integrated. So at the moment and [00:50:55] it’s also integrated with Dental as well. So we are working towards to integrate with all. But [00:51:00] it works with all systems, which is it took us two [00:51:05] and a half years to two and a half years.

Payman Langroudi: Impressive. But so [00:51:10] have you tried it with your own patience, your existing patience? Is that where you’re getting the.

Shivani Bhandari: Yes. And they love [00:51:15] it there. It just decreases the burden on reception because they can actually [00:51:20] do proper work, give proper attention.

[ALL]: To the.

Payman Langroudi: Thinking [00:51:25] route to market. Is B2B B2C right? The thing is, to use it to practice is [00:51:30] to introduce to their patients rather than correct. Market to patients?

[ALL]: Yes. [00:51:35]

Payman Langroudi: That’s the correct.

[ALL]: Move.

Shivani Bhandari: Yeah. The practice can, uh, do the, uh, introduced to the patients. [00:51:40] So only the patients who are registered with the practice can have the access to the [00:51:45] app. Not everybody.

[ALL]: Otherwise. Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: Can they brand it to them?

[ALL]: They can.

Shivani Bhandari: Absolutely. [00:51:50] They can brand it to this, uh, their own. And also what an extra [00:51:55] feature we’re bringing out is. So if a patient travels to London. Right. [00:52:00] And, uh, in the dental emergency, does an eye talk, which is [00:52:05] then an eye and enabled on it and say, is there a dental practice around London? [00:52:10] It will search from the database. Yes, it’s a practice. Is [00:52:15] available. The appointment available is this time it will cost you X amount of money. So [00:52:20] it is always helpful when somebody needs something in pain [00:52:25] it is there. So what. All practices have to sign up for the app. It [00:52:30] would be telling it’s five miles from here. Six miles like Uber [00:52:35] does.

Payman Langroudi: And the business model is what they pay. Like a SaaS product, they pay monthly. [00:52:40]

Shivani Bhandari: They pay monthly. The practice is paid monthly and it’s everything is included in it. So it’s no [00:52:45] slap that you pay X amount of money. You get this. Yeah. Everything is included.

Payman Langroudi: How much [00:52:50] are you done?

Shivani Bhandari: Uh, the price. So it’s going to be launched next month, I’d [00:52:55] say.

[ALL]: How much should that cost?

Shivani Bhandari: Um, it would be £199. [00:53:00]

Gauri Pradhan: Probably a little bit more, probably, depending on. One thing we have decided is if [00:53:05] we when we give a product to a particular practice. Yeah, that product is [00:53:10] not going to be it will be given in totality. So we will [00:53:15] not remove features from it because you’re paying less. Yeah. So because [00:53:20] you one must have the entire experience to experience the uh app [00:53:25] and to go ahead with it further.

Payman Langroudi: But you know that freemium model where you get you get [00:53:30] half the stuff for free. And then I mean that the freemium model works 100%, right?

Gauri Pradhan: It [00:53:35] does.

Payman Langroudi: But to bear that in mind as a business model.

Gauri Pradhan: It does. But, [00:53:40] uh, unless you are, uh, the practice is totally, you [00:53:45] know, uh, we are also trying to get in, uh, compliance element [00:53:50] into it so the dentist doesn’t have to go on a website and do it.

Payman Langroudi: Indulge me, indulge me. We’ve got a massive [00:53:55] audience. Are going to listen to this. Yeah. Really massive. 10,000 people are going to listen to this. Wow. If we [00:54:00] said go on to what’s it called?

Shivani Bhandari: Dps.

Gauri Pradhan: Yes. Dps services. [00:54:05] Yeah. We tried to make it, but then [00:54:10] the NHS element was there, and then we didn’t know whether we needed to take approval from the NHS. [00:54:15] And so we.

[ALL]: Did.

Payman Langroudi: For just for the sake of the argument, I’m no expert. If I was an expert [00:54:20] I wouldn’t be sitting here.

[ALL]: If.

Payman Langroudi: I was an expert. I’m no expert. But for the sake of the [00:54:25] argument, If you said on this podcast, all of you go on to DPS, UK on [00:54:30] Google Play and the Apple App Store, and from today you can get [00:54:35] free this, that and that and for your practice. And there are other services, but [00:54:40] you know, you can you can upgrade to premium whenever you think is right or never do and just be part of our community. [00:54:45] Yeah. Now.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know how many thousand people would sign up, but it’s free and it’s [00:54:50] resources, right? Yes, yes. So that would put you like so far ahead compared to now. I [00:54:55] don’t know how you’re going to do it. Yeah. Dental practices I’ve got a product £199 a month. [00:55:00] Come join me. But take you much longer to get the penetration. Much [00:55:05] longer. Yeah, yeah. So that’s the freemium model. So my point is you’re you’re you’re [00:55:10] rejecting the freemium model. Why? It’s a good reason.

Shivani Bhandari: The good reason [00:55:15] behind it is that it should be we it’s it’s it’s because our heart lies [00:55:20] in it. And we want everything to be offered to everybody. Yeah, that is a the reason why. Yes. [00:55:25] And we want it to go to a next level that everybody enjoys [00:55:30] what is in the app and, uh, uses it. So, uh, [00:55:35] and also the because we when we became practitioners, we realised how much [00:55:40] cost implications there are on the practice. So like [00:55:45] just to remind somebody to turn up for an appointment, you end up paying £5. [00:55:50] You do.

Payman Langroudi: Because. Because sulphur does that to you.

[ALL]: Yes, yes.

Shivani Bhandari: So [00:55:55] you’ll you’ll.

Payman Langroudi: See another service there. But but this is it.

Shivani Bhandari: You’re saying this is. Yeah. It’s sort of like [00:56:00] 3 or £4. Because it depends how many text messages you send to the patient. Yeah. [00:56:05]

[ALL]: So so interesting isn’t it.

Shivani Bhandari: Yeah. So that round of £5 and [00:56:10] with this you don’t pay anything. It’s just a notification and.

Payman Langroudi: Oh [00:56:15] I can send 30,000.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: No doesn’t it on the back end cost you every time they send one. [00:56:20]

Shivani Bhandari: Yes. That’s included in the package. So all your costing whatever you said. [00:56:25]

Payman Langroudi: Hey, what if I said on every day send a text to my to my patient saying how much I love them?

[ALL]: Yes. [00:56:30]

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t that going to cost you? No. You won’t put something in the watch.

Shivani Bhandari: That’s why. [00:56:35]

[ALL]: That’s why the.

Gauri Pradhan: Price is designed.

Payman Langroudi: The only thing that you’ve decided to do. This [00:56:40] man, it’s so interesting.

Shivani Bhandari: It’s her.

[ALL]: Vision. So easy.

Gauri Pradhan: So I’ve been trying [00:56:45] to get someone to do an app. Something like this, for years now. [00:56:50] Every dentistry show, I would go and, you know, look for people who can design apps. There’s nobody there. [00:56:55] And I said it to her, and this is just we just need to do, do something like this. [00:57:00] And the doer that she is, she got me someone and she said, okay, this is the these are the [00:57:05] app people. Let’s just go ahead and do it.

Payman Langroudi: Am I asking how much money you put into this?

Gauri Pradhan: How much can we be paid for it? [00:57:10]

Payman Langroudi: How much money have you put into this project? Do you mind me asking? You don’t have to. You don’t [00:57:15] have.

[ALL]: To tell me.

Shivani Bhandari: It’s around to 300,000.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness.

Shivani Bhandari: Oh, this [00:57:20] is quite a lot of money.

[ALL]: But it is there now and you’re.

Gauri Pradhan: Ready to float. Um, [00:57:25] yeah. So hopefully it should work.

Payman Langroudi: How much runway have you got? Like, how many months [00:57:30] more can you keep going?

Shivani Bhandari: Uh, we can’t keep going with. That’s why we’re launching [00:57:35] next month. So, uh. And already, to be very honest. Touchwood. We [00:57:40] have quite a lot of people interested.

Payman Langroudi: Yes, yes, but how many more months can you keep going before you’re profitable? [00:57:45]

Shivani Bhandari: Before it would take around 12 months.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re good for 12 months?

Shivani Bhandari: Good for.

Payman Langroudi: 12 months. Then you need [00:57:50] money.

[ALL]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So interesting, isn’t it?

Shivani Bhandari: Yeah. Because it’s all self-funded.

Gauri Pradhan: It’s all [00:57:55] self-funded. It’s amazing the money and the divorce. If. If the money doesn’t come in, the divorce happens, [00:58:00] right?

Gauri Pradhan: Because invested time in it. Time and money. So. Yeah. [00:58:05]

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting. Yeah. Because that story is that I think an investor would love that story because investors [00:58:10] love it when you’ve got your own risk in place. They love [00:58:15] that. They adore that they don’t like it when it’s some young kid with an idea and no risk here. But [00:58:20] I would. Google. Google accelerator.

[ALL]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Immediately. Healthcare. Accelerator. [00:58:25] Yeah. And go and join that. And they will tell you. They will show you what to.

[ALL]: Do.

Payman Langroudi: Next. What [00:58:30] to do next?

Gauri Pradhan: I think that’s our next plan.

Payman Langroudi: I think really important.

[ALL]: Thank you.

Gauri Pradhan: For.

Payman Langroudi: Telling. I wish they [00:58:35] existed when we started. I really do.

Shivani Bhandari: Yeah. No, but you’ve done well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but. Yeah, but you know what [00:58:40] I mean. What I mean. You know what I’m saying? It’s a good move. So write the story [00:58:45] for you.

Gauri Pradhan: Oh, God. I’ve said this story so many times.

Gauri Pradhan: But [00:58:50] it was a difficult time. I had just finished my masters, and when I came [00:58:55] to UK, I said, that’s it. No more exams. I did know that I had to take the oath at [00:59:00] some point. I said no, I am the sort of person touchwood for that, [00:59:05] that I don’t take money from anybody, not even my parents. [00:59:10]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, independence.

Gauri Pradhan: Yeah, there’s a bit of a noise to that, I [00:59:15] think, in me, and I absolutely hate it when I borrow money or [00:59:20] and I touchwood, I haven’t. So I came to UK and within, uh, [00:59:25] 15, 20 days, um, I was becoming restless because I had come [00:59:30] from a background where I was working 24 over seven for seven days a week [00:59:35] to sit down and do nothing and look after home was not my cup of tea. So [00:59:40] I made up my CV, printed it out and [00:59:45] borrowed £20 from my husband saying that I want to go to London [00:59:50] and he was in Basildon at that time.

Payman Langroudi: He was.

[ALL]: Right.

Gauri Pradhan: It was a nice [00:59:55] place. It was.

[ALL]: My money.

Shivani Bhandari: Money.

[ALL]: Boring. The boring.

Gauri Pradhan: Yes, yes. But he was [01:00:00] always supportive and he never asked questions. He’s the strong man that he is. [01:00:05] But, uh, for me it was weight. Uh, so I went, [01:00:10] uh, at that time, I think, uh, return ticket or a whole day ticket would [01:00:15] cost £6 something, uh, to London and back. Including, uh, [01:00:20] uh, underground. So I bought that ticket, and, uh, I had [01:00:25] a another Indian friend who had come from South India, uh, [01:00:30] wanting to do this, but never got someone to do this with her. So we both [01:00:35] printed our CV’s and started handing them out to hospitals. I had a lucky break [01:00:40] in Northwick Park Hospital, actually, Ealing Hospital, because they. Northwick Park is a core [01:00:45] hub score site where there are spork sites all around. So Ealing was the spokes site [01:00:50] and I managed to reach there at lunchtime. And Mr. Elliot is [01:00:55] a consultant. There was having lunch. Um, I walked in. I didn’t [01:01:00] know who he was and I said I wanted to hand my CV. At that point, Northwick Park, some [01:01:05] who had left the job suddenly and they were frantically looking for a senior house [01:01:10] officer. He looked at my CV because there was Max fax. And he said, have a seat. Why [01:01:15] should we give you the job? I said, to make the economy stronger, I am educated. I [01:01:20] will do something for you. So I don’t know whether I should be saying this [01:01:25] on the podcast. He said the applications for the job have just closed or might be closing. If you can [01:01:30] do your application within a few hours. Uh, we’ll call [01:01:35] you for an interview. And I rushed back home. Nhs applications [01:01:40] are not a simple thing to do. So I called my husband. I said, you must come [01:01:45] down now because we were living in a hospital site. Uh.

[ALL]: That too. Yeah.

Gauri Pradhan: It’s [01:01:50] amazing when you think back. It’s amazing. Uh, so he said, I’m working. I can’t [01:01:55] come down. But, uh, so he came down a little before his. He handed over [01:02:00] and came back a little before four, and he said, okay, let’s let’s do this. [01:02:05] And he we filled the application. Send it. I get a call within a few days for the interview, [01:02:10] and I get my first senior house officer job. It was.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. [01:02:15]

Gauri Pradhan: It was a steep learning curve.

Payman Langroudi: Then horrible job, right? No, you’re an [01:02:20] you’re a surgeon.

Gauri Pradhan: But that is it is different from India. The paperwork is different. Admitting [01:02:25] patients is different. Prescriptions are different. Diagnosis is the same, but the procedures are different. [01:02:30] So there was a steep learning curve. So, um, I got the job I [01:02:35] joined the job on the 14th of November. Uh, temporary registration. That’s that. And the other [01:02:40] cutting this long story stopped short. I did have to borrow money again for [01:02:45] living on site. You have to pay them at once. So I told Ashish, my husband, [01:02:50] I promise I’ll pay you back. Uh.

[ALL]: He looked at me. What? You need to pay me [01:02:55] back.

Gauri Pradhan: So I started my job. I got my first check, then I understood that. Okay, [01:03:00] I really need to take this exam to keep avenues open. I [01:03:05] sat the part one. Sorry. Ori change job. Job. There was an opening [01:03:10] in Basildon every six months with a job, you have to reapply to the hospital or [01:03:15] look for a new job. So luckily there was an opening at Basildon. I had a brief three four months [01:03:20] in Basildon with the job. The money kept coming in enough to pay for the [01:03:25] take these exams and do a course, so I would study during. When you’re [01:03:30] on call, you get a few couple of minutes free or I would study all the time, prepare for take this [01:03:35] exam and I passed the part one with flying colours. So [01:03:40] I thought, oh, why do people say this? This exam is difficult. It’s [01:03:45] so easy. All you need to do is study and revise. I [01:03:50] didn’t know what was going to happen, so I was used [01:03:55] to using surgical blades. I was used to taking out teeth. [01:04:00] I used to be suturing. I hadn’t cut a tooth in four years [01:04:05] now. So I went to this course for part two, I said, let’s just do [01:04:10] a course. Yeah. Uh, the entire truth vanished when [01:04:15] I.

[ALL]: Did the.

Gauri Pradhan: First.

[ALL]: Filling.

Gauri Pradhan: Because I, you know, coming back to.

[ALL]: After.

Gauri Pradhan: Yeah, [01:04:20] after four years of max. So four and a half years of Max Fox going back to doing Indo [01:04:25] and a minor filling. Anyway, I prepared, failed. Prepared [01:04:30] again. Failed. Um, at that time, I was good. 32 [01:04:35] years because I had wasted so much time moving countries, doing my max facts. And then, [01:04:40] uh, I conceived, uh, with my first [01:04:45] child.

Payman Langroudi: At.

[ALL]: This point.

Gauri Pradhan: At this point.

[ALL]: Why? On purpose?

Gauri Pradhan: No, not on purpose. [01:04:50] So we were a weekend couple. Uh, because of the jobs [01:04:55] we were doing. And he was doing his, uh, gastro at that point. Uh, [01:05:00] and we can see. So. And I started falling in the first trimester of pregnancy. [01:05:05] I was very ill. So my husband said, okay, just call it. Stop working. [01:05:10] Prepare for this exam. Enjoy the pregnancy. So I went back and then [01:05:15] I failed the exam. I was full term pregnant a month ago, I think, and [01:05:20] I got the result. And then I got a call from the [01:05:25] hospital as well. Uh, saying that because of the age you are, [01:05:30] uh, the baby doesn’t look too well in your scans. You need to come back. Come in now for [01:05:35] further tests and assessments. That day I broke down. I said, okay, this is [01:05:40] not happening. My parents kept on telling me, do a management I don’t also applied [01:05:45] for the, uh, London Business School. I almost applied application was ready to go [01:05:50] because I thought, I have to do something. I know myself, I cannot not do something. [01:05:55] So, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Was it the first time you’d ever failed anything?

Gauri Pradhan: No, [01:06:00] I had failed, but I was when I had failed [01:06:05] in India. I said, right, this is not happening. And I started topping and [01:06:10] I topped the university, uh, at the BDS level.

Payman Langroudi: You thought you’d left that [01:06:15] behind you?

Gauri Pradham: I thought I left that behind me, so I.

Gauri Pradhan: Uh, and [01:06:20] I couldn’t understand why I was, uh, failing this exam again and [01:06:25] again. The questions were the same. It is an easy exam to take, but to pass it is [01:06:30] difficult. So one more attempt to go. Now, I had had my child [01:06:35] actually, when I was. I remember when.

[ALL]: I.

Payman Langroudi: Say one more time, if you failed that time, that would be the end of.

[ALL]: It.

Gauri Pradhan: That would be the.

[ALL]: End of it. [01:06:40] How it.

Gauri Pradhan: Works. That’s how it works.

[ALL]: It’s a nightmare.

Gauri Pradhan: It’s an expensive exam and [01:06:45] more expensive, not only due to the cost, but the courses that are run [01:06:50] to help you with this exam.

[ALL]: How were they?

Gauri Pradhan: The courses were. [01:06:55]

Payman Langroudi: Was there a good way of knowing how they were going to be like? Did you talk.

[ALL]: To.

Gauri Pradhan: Contact [01:07:00] people you met at.

[ALL]: The courses?

Gauri Pradhan: They were okay, Uh, things have developed [01:07:05] now. There was no WhatsApp. There was one email, uh, Google email where [01:07:10] you would be in touch with each other, say, share questions, share.

[ALL]: And.

Payman Langroudi: Around how much were you paying for a course [01:07:15] like.

[ALL]: That?

Gauri Pradhan: Anything from £500 to £3000 to £6,000. [01:07:20] I remember I must have spent a good £15,000 just preparing. This is not [01:07:25] including the exam fee. So the job really helped me. Yeah. [01:07:30] Uh uh. No. So where was I?

[ALL]: Sorry, sir.

Payman Langroudi: Why can’t I pass this [01:07:35] exam?

Gauri Pradhan: I think there’s a lot to do. Like I said, when you come into a new [01:07:40] job in the UK, the way you’re working is very different. Uh, you [01:07:45] have to know communication skills. You have to know bedside manager side [01:07:50] manner. You have to know guidelines. You have to know, well, these are things you can read up, [01:07:55] but things that the soft skills you develop while you’re working, uh, [01:08:00] were not there for me. And when I did the dental nursing job, [01:08:05] that really opened my eyes as to what dentistry is here in the [01:08:10] UK. That skill cannot be taught by someone just [01:08:15] giving you question papers or making you do treatment planning [01:08:20] that skin needs to be developed and that is what we aim to do at the UK, [01:08:25] where we teach people these skills, where you [01:08:30] need to know how to deal with complaints, how to, you know, talk to the patient.

Payman Langroudi: Not [01:08:35] part of.

[ALL]: Worry. Oh.

Gauri Pradhan: Very minor part part I think. But [01:08:40] living in the UK is quite different from where, uh, from what you [01:08:45] would do in your own country. Consent is such a big thing in this country. [01:08:50]

Payman Langroudi: The lawyers of one here.

[ALL]: Yes. The lawyers.

Shivani Bhandari: Yeah. No lawyers on [01:08:55] it. And I think so. Simple things like how to do a referral letters. You know, this [01:09:00] is the oris just to assess you that you are clinically safe, but [01:09:05] all the perks next to it. It’s very important because we do see [01:09:10] when people are passed away. The people Gauri is mentoring finished mentorship [01:09:15] she had to go through in detail everything. So [01:09:20] it’s it’s all passing is one thing. But working in UK, an [01:09:25] actual practice is another thing. So you need a proper good trainer.

Gauri Pradhan: Like she’s some [01:09:30] sort of guidance. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And eventually you passed it.

Gauri Pradhan: Yes, eventually I passed.

[ALL]: It, yes.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:09:35] had you already decided you’re not going to be an oral surgeon at this point, it was just having the option not [01:09:40] to.

Gauri Pradhan: I was just having the option. But when I conceived with my son Siddharth. [01:09:45] Uh, he’s a blessing. I told you, he brought all the luck to me. Um, [01:09:50] I want when I. I mean, I’m a LeBron. Yeah, I [01:09:55] want it all. So I wanted a full life and I would see registrars going [01:10:00] back at 10:00 at night, uh, coming back at five in the morning to see [01:10:05] a patient. You know, all that. And I wanted to complete with one spouse already doing that, [01:10:10] uh, at home. I thought the best way forward was dentistry. To live a whole degree.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:10:15] can’t have it all.

[ALL]: Yes, you can’t have it.

Gauri Pradhan: But Shivani loves the dream almost all the time. Whenever [01:10:20] you ask her. How are you doing? I’m living.

Gauri Pradham: The dream.

Shivani Bhandari: So it’s just the day gets better and [01:10:25] you feel better. It’s just making you feel better, that’s what. But you can’t have it all.

Payman Langroudi: Especially [01:10:30] as a woman.

Shivani Bhandari: Yes.

[ALL]: I don’t, I don’t.

Shivani Bhandari: To be honest, I.

[ALL]: Don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Think it [01:10:35] makes any.

[ALL]: Difference.

Shivani Bhandari: No, uh, to be honest, we touchwood. We have very good husbands [01:10:40] who look after.

Gauri Pradhan: Amazing.

Shivani Bhandari: How blessed. Uh, my husband left his job because I’ve got a [01:10:45] special kid, and he left his job so that I can progress and he can look after [01:10:50] the kid and similar situation with Gauri. Ah. [01:10:55]

Gauri Pradhan: He does. He pitches in a lot with our son.

[ALL]: So [01:11:00] as a consultant.

Payman Langroudi: Because as a.

[ALL]: Doctor.

Payman Langroudi: He has time.

Gauri Pradhan: He he doesn’t [01:11:05] have the time. He takes the heat, but he does what he can. I do what I can, and I think [01:11:10] what we want to get through to Siddharth is that life is not a bed of [01:11:15] roses. You need to work hard, uh, no matter what you do. But [01:11:20] just do it with all sincerity, all the love you can. And if [01:11:25] you’re not enjoying it, do something else. But our motto is. I think you were asking [01:11:30] this before the day. We have stopped having fun with the jobs we are doing, the, [01:11:35] uh, things we’ve picked up, we stop. Uh, every day is a [01:11:40] challenge with a lot of fun in it.

Shivani Bhandari: We. We make fun of each other [01:11:45] all day, every day at work and in front of our staff as well. So she’ll make fun of [01:11:50] my, uh.

[ALL]: Habits, eating habits.

Shivani Bhandari: And my spelling’s. [01:11:55] So I am terrible in writing anything. So they’ll make fun of me. My [01:12:00] text messages sometimes doesn’t make sense.

[ALL]: So it was so difficult for her.

Gauri Pradhan: To [01:12:05] understand the difference between between C and d and e n.

[ALL]: T. Yeah. [01:12:10]

Payman Langroudi: So when I said you can’t have it all, you [01:12:15] said no you can’t. So what gave. So what gives. When [01:12:20] you when you’re trying to have it.

[ALL]: All.

Gauri Pradhan: The health gives.

Shivani Bhandari: Health gives. And also you’ve only [01:12:25] like this is Gori saying you only have 24 hours in a day. Yeah. You can do [01:12:30] only so much. You can’t do all. Like when we are working, [01:12:35] obviously our family life is affected because we have [01:12:40] to be out and about more. And especially with me, uh, [01:12:45] I’m really home, so. And how much [01:12:50] I would look after my sons and look after the house. I’m unable to do [01:12:55] that.

Payman Langroudi: I want to touch on another subject, and you can tell me if you don’t want to touch on it. [01:13:00] But. But I’m interested in it suddenly. And it’s going to be weird. When these podcasts come out. There’ll [01:13:05] be like these subjects that go through several podcasts, but the subject I’m interested in is [01:13:10] in dentistry. You find, I think, a higher proportion of couples [01:13:15] where the woman is the primary earner than you do [01:13:20] out in the street. Yeah. If I go out in the street and talk to ten women, nine of them will [01:13:25] be the secondary earner. In dentistry. If you talk to ten women, four of them will be the primary [01:13:30] earner, including, by the way, hygienists and therapists. So many of them are the primary [01:13:35] earner in their families.

Shivani Bhandari: That’s a that’s.

[ALL]: A very good point there. Point.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. So with that in mind, yeah, [01:13:40] when I think about people I know, friends and so forth here, [01:13:45] that of the couples where the woman is the primary earner, there’s [01:13:50] a higher proportion of them using that fact in arguments [01:13:55] in in situations. In leverage. Leverage.

Gauri Pradhan: You don’t. [01:14:00]

[ALL]: Do.

Payman Langroudi: That. Wait.

[ALL]: Wait. Okay.

Shivani Bhandari: No, no you don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Many men. If [01:14:05] you go and ask ten men out there. Seven of them might be the primary earner. And many men do use leverage [01:14:10] in in financial leverage in relationships. But they’re the idiots.

[ALL]: Yeah. [01:14:15]

Payman Langroudi: They’re the fools. Right. So. But my point is this. That things [01:14:20] are not completely equal in so much as if a woman does that. I know you don’t [01:14:25] do it, but if a woman does that, it’s almost a bigger crime than if a man does that. Why? [01:14:30] Because traditionally, the man is the driving. And for a man to be subjected to [01:14:35] that fact that. Hey. And by the way, you’re not bringing the money in as well. Is it just a bigger [01:14:40] thing than it is for a woman? Yes. And the reason I bring it up is because I see [01:14:45] couples, you know, of the ten couples I know where the woman is, the eight of them. [01:14:50] I think it’s been brought up.

Gauri Pradhan: I think traditionally, all three of us. We [01:14:55] within the couples, we don’t discuss money.

[ALL]: Money at.

Gauri Pradhan: All. [01:15:00] Yeah. Yeah, I know it’s. Logically speaking, it should be discussed. Logically [01:15:05] speaking, it should be.

[ALL]: Uh, well, I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Think.

[ALL]: It should.

Payman Langroudi: Be discussed. Who’s bringing the money? That. [01:15:10] I mean, of course, money needs to be discussed.

Gauri Pradhan: Yeah, money needs to be. Future needs to be discussed. [01:15:15]

Payman Langroudi: Like this. 300,000 didn’t drop of a tree, right? Yeah.

Gauri Pradhan: But, uh, [01:15:20] money doesn’t. In all three couples, money is never been Touchwood. Are all [01:15:25] discussion.

Payman Langroudi: In all three of you the women, the primary owner?

Gauri Pradhan: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Is that right?

[ALL]: Is that [01:15:30] right?

Gauri Pradhan: We never discuss money, even amongst ourselves. Uh, Touchwood. I don’t want to [01:15:35] jinx it. Love that we never discussed. Things need to be done. They’ll be done. And I think [01:15:40] the six of us as a group are mature enough where the money goes. Uh, [01:15:45] if it is an intelligent idea, if it is, Are something that [01:15:50] the future holds. Uh, promising is promising for the children and for the six couples [01:15:55] and for the six families. It’s going to be done. So I don’t think, uh, plus [01:16:00] coming from a pack. Yeah. Sorry.

Shivani Bhandari: And to be honest, when we needed make a decisions, [01:16:05] the husbands are included in decisions. So it’s never [01:16:10] a case that we three women are running a business. It is always [01:16:15] six of us. And the. The beauty of this is our our husbands are more [01:16:20] closer friends than we are. And they if if [01:16:25] it’s never happened. But if I and Gary have an argument they chip in more and [01:16:30] they, they they they they say no and we take feedback from them. I [01:16:35] understand why you’re saying that. It happens. It does happen. But with us [01:16:40] it is because everybody has the same power. Money is not the primary. It is [01:16:45] just the self respect for each other. That is the primary.

[ALL]: By.

Payman Langroudi: The way. By the way, the the dollar amount [01:16:50] isn’t even the point, right? Sometimes people will say I want him or her to be more ambitious. [01:16:55] Yes. Even if the dollar amount is less.

[ALL]: Yes, yes. That is not [01:17:00] actually directly.

Payman Langroudi: About the amount.

[ALL]: Of money.

Payman Langroudi: Being brought in.

Shivani Bhandari: Yeah, that’s actually [01:17:05] that is what I think. So my husband and I can say your husband as well and [01:17:10] husband as well. They, they respect that. We are ambitious.

Gauri Pradhan: Very.

[ALL]: Ambitious. [01:17:15]

Shivani Bhandari: Because of them, our ambitions. We can do something about it.

Payman Langroudi: Have the confidence [01:17:20] to do things.

Shivani Bhandari: Yeah. We can leave the house on them like they have so many times. Me and [01:17:25] Gary have gone out for conferences and things like we’re going [01:17:30] to the dental Leaders, the dental forum and, um, and we [01:17:35] leave the kids with them, and we don’t even need to give them a call to check everything is done [01:17:40] or not. It’s so the confidence we have, we leave behind [01:17:45] That is.

[ALL]: That is.

Payman Langroudi: You must have to use nannies, though.

[ALL]: No, no we don’t.

Payman Langroudi: He’s a [01:17:50] doctor. How does he have time to do anything? You just plan it properly?

[ALL]: Yes.

Gauri Pradhan: You just plan it properly. We share [01:17:55] our diaries and it’s just planned. There are times when I can’t make it to something. And there are [01:18:00] times when he.

[ALL]: Comments.

Payman Langroudi: Against nannies.

[ALL]: Like.

Gauri Pradhan: No, no, not at all.

[ALL]: Because, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, you hire all these [01:18:05] people in your business, why not hire a few people at home as well?

[ALL]: Mhm.

Shivani Bhandari: It’s [01:18:10] not the same thing. And also as we said we are three families together. We live [01:18:15] only.

Payman Langroudi: I help each other out.

Shivani Bhandari: Yes, yes.

Gauri Pradhan: So when Texas is closed I am [01:18:20] there at her place to get some milk.

Gauri Pradham: Yes.

Shivani Bhandari: So we don’t go to Tesco even [01:18:25] if it’s open.

[ALL]: So we go to each other.

Shivani Bhandari: And we still work in the old traditional way [01:18:30] where you don’t need to phone anybody, you know. Are you home? No. We just turn.

[ALL]: Up. Yeah.

Shivani Bhandari: And dinner [01:18:35] time will just turn up.

[ALL]: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So so so now. So now. So interestingly, I want to discuss right outside [01:18:40] of the obvious. Yeah. The obvious. What is it about [01:18:45] India that’s better than here, outside of the obvious? I miss my family, the sunshine, [01:18:50] the like. For instance, this thing you’re mentioning, this thing you’re mentioning right here. This thing I’m just going to turn up. [01:18:55]

Gauri Pradhan: Happens in India.

Payman Langroudi: Happens in India, right?

Gauri Pradhan: All the time. Yeah. You just reach [01:19:00] out.

Shivani Bhandari: You just turn.

[ALL]: Up. You just turn.

Shivani Bhandari: Up. People enjoy.

Payman Langroudi: What else? [01:19:05] What else? Culture.

[ALL]: When you see.

Shivani Bhandari: The other over here, like after 5:00, everybody goes [01:19:10] back home.

Payman Langroudi: Watch some TV, goes.

Shivani Bhandari: To bed, goes to bed.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Shivani Bhandari: The life starts [01:19:15] at 8:00. You just get ready. You go out [01:19:20] in five.

[ALL]: You’re working.

Gauri Pradhan: For the life you have to have after.

Gauri Pradham: Five.

[ALL]: Yeah. Great.

Shivani Bhandari: They enjoy.

[ALL]: Their. [01:19:25]

Payman Langroudi: Life for the weekend. Yes, yes. It’s interesting. Yes. It’s interesting. I find that so difficult. The idea [01:19:30] I talk to some people, you know, I wake up at 4 a.m., whatever. And then they work. Finishes at 530, and by seven [01:19:35] I’m in bed. And this idea of, like, your life is that hour and a half in between.

Gauri Pradham: Sleep [01:19:40] through it.

[ALL]: Yeah, yeah.

Shivani Bhandari: And they enjoy. And then we. We are always out and about. [01:19:45] Uh, either their house or a house or our house. We eat dinner [01:19:50] together. When somebody cooks something, they’ll bring their from their house. That [01:19:55] that just makes your work more nicer.

Payman Langroudi: It sounds. [01:20:00] You know, you said family in the, um, business. But what resonates with me about [01:20:05] this situation the six of you are in is that when when you are away from home, your friends become your [01:20:10] family.

[ALL]: You know, that is so true.

Shivani Bhandari: Absolutely.

Gauri Pradhan: That is.

[ALL]: So true.

Payman Langroudi: It’s one of those things.

Shivani Bhandari: Yeah. And when we [01:20:15] came to this country, we didn’t have any family here. So now, uh, and [01:20:20] my son goes to her more to ask something and to my other [01:20:25] friend more. Sometimes I don’t, uh, fill some forms in the school. So he’ll go and [01:20:30] call my other friend Anuja and say, oh, my mom has not filled these forms. Can you do that? So, [01:20:35] you know, that’s that.

Payman Langroudi: And what about the opposite? What is it about the UK outside [01:20:40] of the obvious. That’s at a clear advantage over India.

Gauri Pradhan: Again, I think [01:20:45] on the argument family in India there’s so [01:20:50] much family to look after.

Payman Langroudi: Too.

[ALL]: Much.

Gauri Pradhan: Too much family and with [01:20:55] family comes along. Politics. And I hate politics, I think. So, uh, there’s [01:21:00] none of that. I don’t have to be at a party if I don’t want to. I don’t [01:21:05] want to be. I don’t have to be at a wedding if I don’t want to. If, um, if [01:21:10] there is a problem at home, we can discuss it with them. I don’t have to choose people [01:21:15] who I can discuss it, who I need to trust. I just can talk to these people.

Payman Langroudi: And you know what I love? [01:21:20] I love the anonymity of of London.

[ALL]: That is.

Payman Langroudi: True. Like, I can go out [01:21:25] with a dirty car and and and rip in my trousers. No one gives a damn. Yeah. [01:21:30] Whereas back home, I mean, when I say back home, we’ll go to Lebanon a lot. My wife is [01:21:35] there when you walk into a restaurant.

[ALL]: Everyone Turns to celebrity.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone stops and looks. It [01:21:40] checks you.

[ALL]: Out. Yeah, that is.

Payman Langroudi: True. I love the anonymity of London. You know.

[ALL]: That’s.

Shivani Bhandari: Exactly [01:21:45] happened to me. I met India, and I wanted to get some, uh, eyebrows and facial. [01:21:50] And I went in my pyjamas and, uh.

[ALL]: And they just, you know. [01:21:55]

Shivani Bhandari: They they didn’t acknowledge me. They thought I’ve just come with somebody or [01:22:00] I’m just a help at home. And then I had to go and say, I’m [01:22:05] sorry, I’ve got an appointment. So then they acknowledge.

[ALL]: That.

Shivani Bhandari: There’s a.

[ALL]: Huge.

Gauri Pradhan: Difference. They judge you with what [01:22:10] car you’re driving, what clothes you’re wearing, what jewellery you put on here. You can do anything and you’re not [01:22:15] judged at all.

[ALL]: I think.

Shivani Bhandari: That is with.

[ALL]: Your work.

Gauri Pradhan: That.

[ALL]: Is on.

Payman Langroudi: The on the practice side. [01:22:20] Are you planning just to keep going that.

Shivani Bhandari: Yes we are. We trying to do [01:22:25] two more practices in Gloucestershire. So we will be growing completely [01:22:30] associated.

Payman Langroudi: That’s that’s the model right.

[ALL]: Yes.

Shivani Bhandari: Yes yes. And we [01:22:35] did not have any experience. And we had. That’s my key point, is we wanted [01:22:40] to open the practice and all the practice owners keep saying, oh, it’s a headache. Don’t [01:22:45] open it. And it just gets you low. [01:22:50] Why are they doing it? But we since we have opened the first practice, we wanted to open the second [01:22:55] third, we’re enjoying it. And everybody who works in our practice, we say you [01:23:00] are only working for us for five years. After five years, you have to open your own practice. [01:23:05]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Shivani Bhandari: And we tell them the journey.

Gauri Pradhan: We take them through the journey. Shivani [01:23:10] does it most of the time, but we take them through how you should grow.

Payman Langroudi: Partner with them.

[ALL]: Oh no no [01:23:15] no, no, they should do it. You should think you should.

Payman Langroudi: I think.

[ALL]: You should. Yeah, that’s another business idea. But [01:23:20] then we can look at it.

Payman Langroudi: Correct. It’s a correct one. Yeah. So I mean we see this all the time. You’ll notice in Barcelona [01:23:25] when we go to Dental forum, you’ll notice of the CEOs, the corporates there [01:23:30] are 4 or 5 particular models. Yes. And this one. Yeah. It’s [01:23:35] the dental beauty model. It’s a 51, 49 model.

Shivani Bhandari: 51, 49% death [01:23:40] does.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, and I talk to deaf when you get there. Yeah, yeah. Um, the [01:23:45] banks and things love it because they like skin in the game. Yeah. [01:23:50] And what happens is let’s imagine I mean, they’re all different brands on their your practices, [01:23:55] but let’s imagine that it was all called Saint Paul’s Dental. For the sake of the argument, Saint Paul’s Dental could take care [01:24:00] of the compliance of this or that. And but the partner who’s this person. [01:24:05] Yeah, takes care.

[ALL]: Of.

Payman Langroudi: Everything in the practice. So and because he’s a 49 [01:24:10] owner, he’s going to take care of everything. And and because he’s come from your practices, [01:24:15] he’s going to know how you guys work. Yeah. Yeah. And so to go raise £10 million with [01:24:20] that model is, is much more interesting for the banker types. Yeah. Because you know, [01:24:25] plus this guy has to raise money himself right. Yes. You get double the [01:24:30] amount of money.

[ALL]: Because.

Gauri Pradhan: That’s the certainty of it all.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Shivani Bhandari: So that’s a good idea.

[ALL]: Model.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. There’s [01:24:35] another model that says I’m going to fully own everything. Yeah, the model works for me. I’m going to keep it in [01:24:40] and out. Burger in California. Yeah, I think they turn over $1.3 billion. [01:24:45] Um, but they don’t ever franchise that. Every site is [01:24:50] owned by the company, the family. Family. And they’ve stuck to 6 or 7 states [01:24:55] in the, in the West. They haven’t even gone to New York or and or anything. And so that’s another model.

Shivani Bhandari: That’s another [01:25:00] model.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Or then you’ll meet the guy from Bupa. You know, that’s that’s another model.

[ALL]: Yeah. [01:25:05] True.

Payman Langroudi: There are lots of models for.

[ALL]: Practice.

Payman Langroudi: Lots of models for practice that you can go.

[ALL]: There.

Shivani Bhandari: I don’t know there’s good ideas. [01:25:10]

Payman Langroudi: For opening win.

Shivani Bhandari: So hopefully in six months.

Payman Langroudi: Are they all existing concerns. [01:25:15]

Shivani Bhandari: No this would be Scott practices.

[ALL]: Really really really [01:25:20] good practices. We see builders.

Payman Langroudi: And everything like people you know [01:25:25] and and trust. Now that can do that. A team of people.

Shivani Bhandari: We have one specific build that we [01:25:30] don’t go anywhere else. Roots, and I’ve known them for 20 odd years. [01:25:35] I used to work with them in Oasis days.

[ALL]: Oh, amazing.

Shivani Bhandari: Yeah, he’s [01:25:40] in 70s. But he does get the work done. We [01:25:45] just don’t need to question him. We just say we needed this time and [01:25:50] it’s all done. No stress.

[ALL]: So, did.

Payman Langroudi: You listen to the episode where Kunal [01:25:55] from Tooth Club was on? No. Listen to that one. Listen to that one. Because he [01:26:00] talks about his. It’s like a 12 week process from start to finish. Start to finish [01:26:05] for for a squad.

[ALL]: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: That’s amazing. He’s a he’s a banker. He’s not a dentist. But they’ve opened 18 [01:26:10] of them now. All right. Um, but it’s all very like Invisalign. But [01:26:15] but still, you’ll still learn.

[ALL]: A lot of things.

Payman Langroudi: From that idea.

Shivani Bhandari: Yeah. No, I would love [01:26:20] to look at that. And, uh, because I also wanted to go on bundles. Course, because he [01:26:25] does quite a lot of squad practices. Uh, want to. Because we learned ourselves [01:26:30] what we learned in other practices. When Gauri has worked in different practices, [01:26:35] I have worked in Oasis, Bupa, my dentist. So we [01:26:40] learned from there.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a beautiful story, but I want to get to the darker part of it.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Gauri Pradhan: Which [01:26:45] one?

Payman Langroudi: So we’d like to talk about mistakes. Let’s [01:26:50] start with clinical errors. Both of you like what comes to mind when I say one? [01:26:55] You know, there’s a book called Black Box thinking. It’s about plane crashes. Right. And, [01:27:00] and and how does the whole of the community learn from [01:27:05] each other’s mistakes?

Gauri Pradhan: Mistakes?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. For that reason, we want to learn a mistake that someone [01:27:10] listening could learn from in your career. Clinically.

Gauri Pradhan: I [01:27:15] always go back to the first complaint [01:27:20] I had of at the end from the NHS. Yeah, I think because it’s the first. [01:27:25] It’s just very.

[ALL]: Painful.

Gauri Pradhan: Yeah, painful. I didn’t [01:27:30] make a mistake as a mistake. Uh, this lady came in for, uh, [01:27:35] a root canal, and it was beyond my scope because the canals [01:27:40] were curved, so I offered private [01:27:45] referral. I didn’t do them, but I offered referral. And what I [01:27:50] didn’t, uh, what I used to happen back then, even now, a lot of referrals used to come [01:27:55] back from the endo, uh, uh, tertiary, uh, secondary hospital [01:28:00] care because they wouldn’t take endo referrals. So because I knew [01:28:05] that at the back of my mind it didn’t mention.

[ALL]: It to the patient.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Gauri Pradhan: And that [01:28:10] became into a big complaint because that was not offered. Yeah. Uh, so I had [01:28:15] my lesson. No matter what, you have to do the referral.

Payman Langroudi: What happened [01:28:20] within the complaint? What happened? So what was the conclusion?

Gauri Pradhan: The NHS. It was a long, long [01:28:25] process. It didn’t go to the GDC, thankfully, but I went on a course [01:28:30] the way you know. But yeah, that was.

[ALL]: What.

Payman Langroudi: Was going through your [01:28:35] head. Was it like, more like I should have done better? Or were you thinking, [01:28:40] this is ridiculous.

Gauri Pradhan: This is ridiculous. Why couldn’t I think of it? I was blaming myself. Why [01:28:45] didn’t I think of it? Uh, I know they come back, but the offer had [01:28:50] to be made, and it was nowhere in my notes. So. Yeah. No matter what. Now, whenever I [01:28:55] see a patient from no option to, all the options are given like a parrot.

Payman Langroudi: Was there venom [01:29:00] in the complaint? Like, did the patient say, oh, she on purpose? Didn’t like. [01:29:05] You know what I mean? Like, sometimes you’re just trying your best, and then the patient might think of it as something much more than [01:29:10] that.

Gauri Pradhan: I think the patient was really upset because she was a nurse [01:29:15] at the hospital, and she knew that there would be.

[ALL]: Oh, I see.

Gauri Pradhan: Uh. [01:29:20]

Payman Langroudi: She would have been seen.

[ALL]: She would have been seen. Or maybe she lost out a good few months.

[TRANSITION]: Knew she [01:29:25] would have been seen?

[ALL]: Yeah, maybe not, but.

Gauri Pradhan: But she. She understood that, um, [01:29:30] she lost a few months, uh, with that tooth. So at [01:29:35] some point.

[ALL]: Did you.

Payman Langroudi: Call up defence?

[ALL]: Yes, defence. Did you, did you.

Gauri Pradhan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Indemnity was [01:29:40] there. Everything happened as per guidelines. But that is something which [01:29:45] I would never forget.

Payman Langroudi: And then how did it go away?

Gauri Pradhan: I think [01:29:50] I ended.

[ALL]: Up.

Payman Langroudi: Apologising.

Gauri Pradhan: For all that. I also ended up [01:29:55] offering paying for the private course of treatment if they were to choose to. But I [01:30:00] frankly, I don’t remember what ultimately happened. But she was happy at the end of the, uh, [01:30:05] process. So that is one story that [01:30:10] comes to mind.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll take that story.

Shivani Bhandari: For me from [01:30:15] the nursing point of view. I got the wrong patient in the chair. So there were two patients. [01:30:20] You know, you’d have to go and call the patient.

[ALL]: Same name? Same name. Same same names.

Shivani Bhandari: And [01:30:25] thankfully it was in the dentist. Checked the name beforehand. [01:30:30] The surname. Uh. And he said no, thank God he checked it because otherwise [01:30:35] he would have taken the tooth out. So that’s my, uh, [01:30:40] complaint and biggest mistake. That was.

[ALL]: The only.

Payman Langroudi: Thing I’m not going.

[ALL]: To accept.

Gauri Pradhan: I think [01:30:45] there’s one mistake we made also with the buying a practice. [01:30:50]

[ALL]: Yes.

Gauri Pradhan: Recently.

[ALL]: Business error. Business error? Yeah.

Gauri Pradhan: Uh, we [01:30:55] almost a few months back. It was almost at a point of signing [01:31:00] the document and the, uh. And this is the first time. I don’t know why it [01:31:05] just slipped. We didn’t do the hotkeys. Well, the heads of terms, uh, [01:31:10] we did all the diligence. We did everything. We paid the lawyers. And just [01:31:15] this final day. And the seller pulls out and we spend loads [01:31:20] of money.

Payman Langroudi: Lawyers is ever.

[ALL]: Right.

Gauri Pradhan: The seller pulls out, but you don’t have [01:31:25] the hots. So there.

[ALL]: Is.

Payman Langroudi: The mistake is the lawyer’s right.

[ALL]: Yes, but we pay. [01:31:30]

Gauri Pradhan: The lawyers.

[ALL]: We’ve paid. We’ve made.

Payman Langroudi: Sure every mistake is yours in the.

[ALL]: End.

Shivani Bhandari: Yeah, but it’s a blessing in [01:31:35] a way, because it didn’t felt right from the start. I think so. You know, sometimes [01:31:40] that is another advice. I would say never get pushed into making a decision. Yeah. You [01:31:45] know, you want to grow, but you want to grow.

[ALL]: Which is the right direction. [01:31:50]

Shivani Bhandari: The right direction. Because that’s the good thing. If it’s the [01:31:55] God blessing. And it didn’t happen. But now we look back and now we [01:32:00] get to know things. I think so that was the best thing. It happened. So the advice is don’t. [01:32:05]

[ALL]: Don’t rush, don’t rush.

Shivani Bhandari: And don’t rush. Take slowly slow [01:32:10] steps. So that’s crucial. And but we like now [01:32:15] openings court practices.

[TRANSITION]: All the other way.

Payman Langroudi: I understand what you’re saying and it’s absolutely correct. [01:32:20] But velocity is one of the biggest issues in businesses. Velocity is at the speed of decision making. Now [01:32:25] of course, you guys make decisions quickly because you wouldn’t have achieved everything you’ve achieved. Yeah, but without making a [01:32:30] few decisions here and there. Yeah. But but you know what I mean. I wouldn’t want someone who’s like, [01:32:35] uh, you know, people think about things for such a long time. Yes. And nothing happens. It’s [01:32:40] like almost the happening is the important part of it.

Shivani Bhandari: Yeah. So that’s why our three [01:32:45] triangle, which we have is work. Well, because we both are very quick in [01:32:50] making decisions. But the third person.

Payman Langroudi: The thinker.

Shivani Bhandari: Is a thinker. [01:32:55] She takes time to think decisions. And that saves.

Payman Langroudi: Us. So you need opposites.

Shivani Bhandari: Yes. [01:33:00] So that’s.

[ALL]: That works very well for us.

Shivani Bhandari: Well for us.

Payman Langroudi: So, you know, the thing you said [01:33:05] about job roles, job, job titles or whatever. Not picking them. Um, we were [01:33:10] the same when we started. And what ends up happening is you fall into the thing that you’re [01:33:15] naturally good at because you don’t ever know.

[ALL]: At the beginning.

Payman Langroudi: Said like that [01:33:20] you were going to be the visionary and you were going to be the techie. At the beginning, you didn’t know that.

[ALL]: You didn’t know that [01:33:25] it.

Gauri Pradhan: Was not labelled at all.

[ALL]: But.

Gauri Pradhan: It just came into being. Yes. And if it happens that naturally, [01:33:30] that means it’s meant to be.

Shivani Bhandari: And then then we pick up as well. We know if God is [01:33:35] good in that we just leave her alone. And if they think I’m good, which [01:33:40] I’m not.

[ALL]: But you need.

Shivani Bhandari: It to it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:33:45] I kind of want more of a clinical error from you though. Or if you want to pass it on to her, [01:33:50] I wouldn’t.

Shivani Bhandari: I would pass it on.

Payman Langroudi: Like a proper and error, like, you know, in all of that max [01:33:55] factor, there must have been an error.

Gauri Pradhan: I’m sure there must have been. But with hospital [01:34:00] work, you are so well looked after with an error.

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t have to be just like a [01:34:05] GDC thing. It’s like, okay, what was the error? So that the next guy doing his hospital work doesn’t make that error? [01:34:10]

Gauri Pradhan: I’m not saying I’m perfect by any chance, but I’m struggling to [01:34:15] think. Give [01:34:20] me a minute. I’ll think about where you can go on to your next question then. [01:34:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, we are coming to the end.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So we like to go.

Shivani Bhandari: You know, I [01:34:30] don’t have any errors.

[ALL]: I don’t.

Shivani Bhandari: Practice.

[ALL]: There.

Shivani Bhandari: Be [01:34:35] safe.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So the final question, I don’t know if you’ve had time to think about that, [01:34:40] but it’s a fantasy dinner party. Three guests. Let’s have three of yours and three of yours. [01:34:45]

Shivani Bhandari: Three of mine and three of us.

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive?

Shivani Bhandari: Uh, so three of mine [01:34:50] would be my three best friends. Uh, Gauri, Anuja, and [01:34:55] one friend passed away. So. Monica. So that would be my three. [01:35:00] Yeah. That’s lovely. I would love to have dinner with only three of them. [01:35:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’ll accept that. Can you think?

[ALL]: Uh, one.

Gauri Pradhan: Would be [01:35:10] my mother. Top. Uh, I would love to ask a loads of questions. Which I [01:35:15] haven’t got answers for. Uh.

Payman Langroudi: How old were you when she passed?

Gauri Pradhan: Uh, [01:35:20] I was old enough. Uh, this was just before Covid. Uh, but I, uh, [01:35:25] Covid.

[ALL]: Restrictions.

Gauri Pradhan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Covid just [01:35:30] hit. And flights were closed down. I couldn’t make it back in time, so [01:35:35] I couldn’t see her in the last few days. Uh, second [01:35:40] would be I don’t. Uh, my memory fails me. The guy who wrote that [01:35:45] book. Um. Let’s go to the third one. Maybe Barack [01:35:50] Obama.

[ALL]: All right.

Gauri Pradhan: Uh.

Payman Langroudi: Which [01:35:55] book was.

[ALL]: It?

Payman Langroudi: Start with why? Simon [01:36:00] Sinek.

Gauri Pradhan: Yeah. Started by, uh, the guy who. Uh, [01:36:05] can I Google it up?

Shivani Bhandari: So. Well, I [01:36:10] the reason I just feel you live your life with [01:36:15] your friends and you want to spend your life dinner with your friends.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah, it’s not. [01:36:20] Your answer was good. I don’t really normally I don’t accept it. When people say my husband or my wife, I [01:36:25] just don’t accept that.

Shivani Bhandari: Yeah, because you were there all the time.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you are always with them as well, but but you [01:36:30] know, I, I, I let it pass because of your other friend, which is correct.

[ALL]: What [01:36:35] about.

Shivani Bhandari: Yeah. Sorry. Good.

Payman Langroudi: Well, what about, um, the deathbed [01:36:40] question on your deathbed? Three pieces of advice for [01:36:45] your loved one. Second. What was.

[ALL]: It.

Gauri Pradhan: Sapiens?

[ALL]: You were.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:36:50] Israeli.

[ALL]: Guy? Yeah. Brilliant book. I’ve heard.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve not read it. I’ve heard.

Gauri Pradhan: Sapiens and his.

[ALL]: Other [01:36:55] book.

Gauri Pradhan: Harari.

[ALL]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gauri Pradhan: Yeah, yeah, uh, what a brain.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve [01:37:00] heard.

Gauri Pradhan: What a brain. I mean.

[ALL]: It’s put.

Gauri Pradhan: It all together and and [01:37:05] it’s not a boring read, so. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Go ahead. Let’s let’s move [01:37:10] on to three.

[ALL]: Pieces of advice.

Shivani Bhandari: My first thing is always don’t [01:37:15] be scared of taking risks. I. I was delayed, I wanted to do [01:37:20] it, but I was scared of taking risk. So I did it later in my life. [01:37:25] And also live your life fully where you don’t [01:37:30] have to think a lot about what will the other person think?

Payman Langroudi: Do [01:37:35] what you worry, what other people think of you.

Shivani Bhandari: Yes. Do whatever you [01:37:40] want to do. Just get on and do it. And third thing, always [01:37:45] stay close to your don’t don’t [01:37:50] make too many friends.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t explain.

[ALL]: That one.

Shivani Bhandari: Always [01:37:55] have a smaller circle of a friendship.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I see, I see, I see I better to know five people [01:38:00] very well than 50 people. 50 people.

[ALL]: Very well.

Shivani Bhandari: Yeah, because. Which [01:38:05] I realise in later years the close of friends last longer [01:38:10] and they help you lifelong than having thousands of friends. [01:38:15] So true. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s what [01:38:20] Jack and Gary.

Gauri Pradhan: My first and foremost, would be. Pretence. Don’t [01:38:25] pretend. Don’t pretend and identify people who pretend. Uh, [01:38:30] more importantly, the second bit are pretence in anything, [01:38:35] whether be it doing a simple, filling career, relationship, [01:38:40] friendship, anything is going to take you down [01:38:45] the wrong direction and end up making a personality [01:38:50] which is not you. Be genuine to the core with everything you [01:38:55] do. Otherwise, don’t do it. Uh, second thing would be like Shivani [01:39:00] said, have fun in everything you do.

[ALL]: So true.

Gauri Pradhan: Just have fun the [01:39:05] day you stop having fun. Look somewhere else. Because I’m not saying go [01:39:10] from pillar to post because. But if you put those two together, being genuine and having fun, [01:39:15] if that come together.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a third.

[ALL]: You don’t need a third.

Gauri Pradhan: You [01:39:20] really don’t need a third. Uh.

Payman Langroudi: How about one of the [01:39:25] ones that I was like, I wish I did more of X in my life. [01:39:30] You should do this more. Because you’re pretty good [01:39:35] on the first two.

Gauri Pradhan: I think that [01:39:40] comes into risk taking.

[ALL]: Risk taking?

Gauri Pradhan: Yeah, I think.

[ALL]: You’re taking.

Payman Langroudi: Risk left, right and. [01:39:45]

[ALL]: Centre.

Payman Langroudi: You want to be even more of a risk taker.

[ALL]: You should.

Payman Langroudi: Get yourself, like a jet. [01:39:50]

[ALL]: Ski or something. But, uh, earlier.

Gauri Pradhan: Everyone is [01:39:55] more of a risk taker between the two of us and between the three of us. She is.

Payman Langroudi: Like casinos.

[ALL]: As [01:40:00] well. She loves casinos.

Shivani Bhandari: I can I can stay all night [01:40:05] in a casino.

Payman Langroudi: The higher you get from the win on the casino table. Nothing. Nothing. [01:40:10]

[ALL]: I’m listening to this. Nothing. Nothing.

Payman Langroudi: Nothing is like that. Hard. And that’s why [01:40:15] it’s such a problem for people. Like I never go to a casino. But when I do go. Yeah, I love it. [01:40:20]

Shivani Bhandari: I used to go, and I. Because since I’ve met these two. Yeah. I [01:40:25] don’t go to casino. I miss it a lot.

[ALL]: So I’ll.

Gauri Pradhan: Take.

[ALL]: You someday. [01:40:30]

[ALL]: Someday?

Shivani Bhandari: 50th birthday, Las Vegas.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve [01:40:35] got a friend. He’s at the end of the night. He’s always. Now let’s go to the casino guy. And [01:40:40] so we did a course. Dental course, and we drank, and he said, oh, now that’s good. I said, I can’t, [01:40:45] I can’t, I mean, I’m, I’m going to go to the hotel. And he came out of the casino, jumped into [01:40:50] the first taxi and said, take me to the Hilton. Turns out the Hilton was across the road. So [01:40:55] the guy, the taxi thought he must mean the airport took him all the way back. [01:41:00]

[ALL]: And he.

Payman Langroudi: Knows.

[ALL]: He knows who he is. [01:41:05] Listen to this. Listen to this.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive [01:41:10] pleasure. I really enjoyed it. You’re gonna give me one more clinical nightmare? It must.

[ALL]: Be.

Payman Langroudi: A clinical nightmare. Max. [01:41:15] Come on. There must have been.

Gauri Pradhan: If there was a nightmare in [01:41:20] my first job where a patient II was new, relatively new, and [01:41:25] I didn’t know how to handle it. He came all drugged and, uh, you know, uh, [01:41:30] in North Park. Uh, and, uh, I, I [01:41:35] was I was shocked. I didn’t know what to do, how to react, because there were [01:41:40] so many rules and regulations around how you can take care of such people. And [01:41:45] he just lay down on the ground, uh, demanding [01:41:50] care. Not not, uh, medically, but just demanding to be [01:41:55] seen. He was back at the waiting list, and I was not calling because there were so many other people. It [01:42:00] was Arnie. I was.

[ALL]: On call. Yeah. Okay.

Gauri Pradhan: And I think that was a nightmare [01:42:05] night. The other one, I was again on the ward, and that was all within the same week [01:42:10] where a cancer patient, uh, had a bleed after his, [01:42:15] uh, character was done. Yeah.

[ALL]: And you were the junior.

Gauri Pradhan: Was the junior on call? [01:42:20]

[ALL]: I’ve been there.

Gauri Pradhan: Oh, it was it. You’re in the UK. [01:42:25] You’re. It’s your first few months. And, uh, with [01:42:30] India, when you are taking care of a patient, it’s all on you. And at that point, I didn’t understand that. That’s [01:42:35] all on me. It’s not all on me. There is a team. Uh, we did, [01:42:40] uh, call the, uh, emergency within the hospital. We did everything [01:42:45] as per protocol. But that night never leaves me because, uh, [01:42:50] I was at that stage where I didn’t understand that there is a team to support you. So, [01:42:55] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Did you pass away within?

Gauri Pradhan: Not that night, thankfully. Otherwise [01:43:00] it would be difficult for me, I think. Thankfully. But he eventually did. [01:43:05] Yes, within the next few days he did.

Payman Langroudi: So I think we should leave [01:43:10] it at that point though. Yeah. Thank you so much. I just learned so much from you guys. But [01:43:15] but the energy and the optimism and the smiles.

[ALL]: And the.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:43:20] the friendship. I wished your number three partner was also here.

[ALL]: Maybe [01:43:25] next time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Too good to see her too. Thank you so much.

Shivani Bhandari: Thank you so.

[ALL]: Much.

Shivani Bhandari: For having [01:43:30] us. And we would love to you to come to our practice.

[ALL]: Yeah. Yes, yes. Come to our practice [01:43:35] and have.

Payman Langroudi: A little.

[ALL]: Love.

Shivani Bhandari: And see how the work culture, the share, the.

[ALL]: Lunch.

Payman Langroudi: You know [01:43:40] what? You know what I’ve been guilty of? Like putting the NHS down more than my fair share. Because I, [01:43:45] you know, everyone has a bias to their own story. Right? And my story was I don’t want a third party [01:43:50] talking to me at all. I’ve got patient me situation. I don’t.

[ALL]: Want.

Gauri Pradhan: It.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do not [01:43:55] want any other. And I’ve been biased against it. But as I said to you that The happy NHS story [01:44:00] I really want to watch. I really want to see what’s going on there.

[ALL]: Yeah, absolutely. Come and.

Payman Langroudi: See. Because that’s not you [01:44:05] know, it’s not one we hear often.

[ALL]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Gauri Pradhan: We’ll still keep battling [01:44:10] for it.

[ALL]: Amazing. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you. So lovely to meet you.

Gauri Pradhan: Lovely to meet you. Thank you.

[VOICE]: This [01:44:15] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you [01:44:20] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:44:25] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [01:44:30]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened [01:44:35] to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through [01:44:40] and listening to what we had to say and what our guests had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value [01:44:45] out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing, and [01:44:50] if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, [01:44:55] so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] enlightened online training to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time. Whitening. Underwhelmed. Try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pot.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you [00:00:30] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:40] Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Pat Sabi [00:00:45] Sabi onto the podcast. An Iranian, uh, friend of [00:00:50] mine who is a Viti.

Patric Saraby: Yes, I’m Viti. It’s really nice to be [00:00:55] here. Thank you for having me.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a pleasure. It’s a pleasure. So Pat has qualified from Barcelona [00:01:00] and is now working in a Bupa practice in Bournemouth. [00:01:05]

Patric Saraby: Yes, exactly. Now I’ve just started a few months ago, so um, [00:01:10] I graduated in July and then I moved over in September to start working at Bupa in [00:01:15] Westbourne, in Bournemouth. Um, and honestly, it’s been a great experience [00:01:20] so far. I’m working at NHS um, private. Um, and [00:01:25] I’m honestly just trying to discover what I want to do further [00:01:30] on later down the line at the moment.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but first job is a nightmare, right? [00:01:35] I mean, on when when you first start.

Patric Saraby: The.

Payman Langroudi: First in the real world. [00:01:40]

Patric Saraby: Three months, I would say were difficult.

Payman Langroudi: How long? How much? How many months have you done [00:01:45] so far?

Patric Saraby: So I’d say I’m just coming on to about 9 or 10 months, but now I’m kind [00:01:50] of getting the gist of it, to be honest. So, um, every week it’s better. [00:01:55] Um, the first few months there was a lot to work out because in university [00:02:00] they don’t train you to come out into the working world. [00:02:05] Yeah, I mean, clinically, they obviously show you what to do, but [00:02:10] there’s a lot more to that than just, um, clinical practice and dentistry. There’s [00:02:15] communication, patient relationships.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but let’s talk through it. Let’s talk through [00:02:20] it. You start a new practice. What? What surprised you the most?

Patric Saraby: What surprised me the most [00:02:25] was that, um. So I didn’t do foundation training because I came [00:02:30] over from Boston. Uh, so I have a mentor. Uh, and at the start, I [00:02:35] felt very much thrown into just the deep end. First day. Yeah. You have a crowd? [00:02:40] Well, examination a few days later. So you have a crown prep. First one [00:02:45] not supervised root canal. First one not supervised. You have [00:02:50] obviously a mentor next door that you can ask questions, but everything’s down to you. So there’s [00:02:55] no one to tell you what to do. Um. And, uh. Yeah. No. You can feel like [00:03:00] you’re you’re swimming and ultimately drowning, but. Yeah, um, you [00:03:05] have to do your best to just stay. Keep your head above water. And, uh, now [00:03:10] I feel like over the time, it’s it’s a lot better. There’s still things that I’m [00:03:15] definitely not 100% sure, but, um, I think the important thing is [00:03:20] to always present to the patient that you’re confident about what you’re doing. Because [00:03:25] the worst thing is to have someone under your hands who’s not confident [00:03:30] in your ability, and they can see.

Payman Langroudi: That you agree with that at the same time. At the same time, you [00:03:35] know that as a one thing I love to hear from someone [00:03:40] who’s trying to do something for me is I don’t know. Yeah, yeah. [00:03:45] You know, as a young dentist, you do think that you need to be fully confident and [00:03:50] so on top of it, that the patient needs to feel so right. But actually from [00:03:55] the patient perspective. Yeah. The idea that you don’t know something and that things [00:04:00] may not go to plan. Yeah, is actually quite reassuring in so [00:04:05] much as they think this person has an idea of what could go wrong. Yeah. Now, I understand [00:04:10] on day one of the job that you can’t say that. Yeah. Because you haven’t even got the [00:04:15] complications behind you yet. Yeah. But my point is, don’t overstress yourself about [00:04:20] looking super confident the whole time. Yeah.

Patric Saraby: Yeah. No, that makes sense.

Payman Langroudi: Because, you know, the [00:04:25] patient being by sitting in your chair, they’re already saying [00:04:30] I trust you. Yeah.

Patric Saraby: That’s true. That’s true. I do sometimes say that [00:04:35] I’m going to call in a colleague to just consult with me when I’m not sure. So I call him my [00:04:40] mentor and we’ll have a conversation. And the patient understands. They know that I’ve newly started [00:04:45] working in the practice, and they can tell by looking at me that I don’t have the most experience [00:04:50] Compared to the colleagues in the practice, so I feel like they probably [00:04:55] do appreciate the fact that I do ask questions as well.

Payman Langroudi: But what surprised you the most was the appointment [00:05:00] times. Yeah, no, it was that unexpected.

Patric Saraby: Nhs appointment times is it’s. [00:05:05]

Payman Langroudi: What are we talking.

Patric Saraby: We’re talking. I have a check up 10 [00:05:10] to 15 minutes and I have to do, obviously all the beeps, all the X-rays. [00:05:15] Um, do a treatment plan in that time frame, explain [00:05:20] the treatment plan to the patient, try and give them private and NHS options and [00:05:25] explain the difference between those. Um. And you feel a bit like Slim Shady [00:05:30] sometimes just rapping on a beat, like as fast as you can to get everything out. Um, and then [00:05:35] it’s that one out, next one in.

Payman Langroudi: And typically what’s the next one and how [00:05:40] long have you got.

Patric Saraby: Well it fits. Depends. So if it’s, um, an amalgam filling, we’ve got 20 minutes to [00:05:45] anaesthetise make the whole.

Payman Langroudi: Beginning to.

Patric Saraby: End. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: 20 minutes.

Patric Saraby: Begin to. Yeah. Yeah. [00:05:50] That’s. It’s quick. Like it’s really quick. You see?

Payman Langroudi: About [00:05:55] what? About Crown prep.

Patric Saraby: Crown prep. So Crown prep I take longer because [00:06:00] I feel like I can’t I can’t do good quality job [00:06:05] in the time frame. So if it’s a NHS one, I will still try and [00:06:10] put an hour, an hour or so because I need to get it right. If the margins aren’t right then the patient [00:06:15] could get an abscess or something when they come back, and ultimately that would be my fault because I didn’t spend [00:06:20] enough time prepping it. If it’s a private one, then I’ll probably do an hour and 20 or something just to make sure everything’s [00:06:25] 100% correct. Um, but yeah, no, uh, Crown, perhaps [00:06:30] one of those things that because obviously you’re taking the tooth apart and taking so much and it’s a really invasive [00:06:35] treatment, you need to get it right. So a feeling I don’t mind because of feeling [00:06:40] ultimately it’s it can go wrong, but it can’t go as bad as a crown prep. If you [00:06:45] do a bad crown prep it’s it could be very serious.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah, I [00:06:50] think it’s possible to do a filling in 20 minutes. It is possible, yeah. But you do things like numb the patients, [00:06:55] send them back in the waiting room, that whole thing.

Patric Saraby: Um, I know I just numb the patient as soon as they come [00:07:00] in, and then whilst the nurse is getting everything prepared, and then by the time everything’s set up, then we [00:07:05] just start the filling straight away. But the first thing I’d do is I sit the patient in the chair, numb them as soon as they walk in because [00:07:10] that way we we save five minutes. So step one is. Hi. Nice to [00:07:15] see you again. Sit down in the chair. Gonna numb you. And, um, after that, are you [00:07:20] ready to start the filling? The only thing about amalgam is that we didn’t learn it at uni. [00:07:25] It doesn’t exist in Spain. It’s. It’s, uh, it’s something that I literally [00:07:30] on the first day I had to watch YouTube videos on. I’m making it, undercutting [00:07:35] all the preparations, uh, so that the filling stays in there. Obviously it’s it’s [00:07:40] it’s nothing that we ever touched on in uni because in Europe, I think starting the [00:07:45] 1st of January 2025. They banned amalgam in all European countries [00:07:50] except the UK. So yeah, no. Amalgam is something that I, I [00:07:55] don’t fully agree with because I it’s a good material against decay [00:08:00] for sure, but I, I feel like as um [00:08:05] a country we could probably do better than amalgam. Uh, and I feel like composites [00:08:10] are much better material in, in many aspects.

Payman Langroudi: And much worse material [00:08:15] in many aspects to. Yeah. I mean, it’s much harder to get a composite right than amalgam. Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. [00:08:20] The thing about.

Patric Saraby: 20 minutes for composite would be very difficult, actually. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The thing about amalgam is, is quite [00:08:25] forgiving, quite forgiving. Um, it’s funny you say that, though, because I qualified [00:08:30] without doing a single posterior composite.

Patric Saraby: Oh, wow.

Payman Langroudi: Because posterior composite back then [00:08:35] was considered incorrect treatment. Yeah, because it is harder.

Patric Saraby: Yeah, it is.

Payman Langroudi: Hard to control.

Patric Saraby: It [00:08:40] takes a rubber.

Payman Langroudi: That’s not a thing.

Patric Saraby: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: No, it was only for Endo back then. [00:08:45] Um, although I quickly stopped doing amalgam myself because we went straight to private practice. [00:08:50] Yeah. So do you. What else? What else surprises you [00:08:55] about the business of dentistry? So what did you what was something that you thought was [00:09:00] going to be one way? And is actually a totally different way.

Patric Saraby: One thing that was never really touched upon [00:09:05] in university is that communication is 50% of the job. So when you sit [00:09:10] down and you speak to a patient, um, you can board them with explanations or you [00:09:15] have caries, you have decay. Um, you I feel like the communication [00:09:20] is probably the most important part of the job. So what I try to do is I try and sit the patient [00:09:25] down in front of a computer and show them pictures. Because if if you’re just throwing words at me and I [00:09:30] have in no sense any sort of education on caries decay, a class two, [00:09:35] class one, whatever, uh, I’m going to have no idea what you’re speaking about, and I’m probably not [00:09:40] going to be very engaged by the treatment plan that you’re drawing up for me. So if you take some sort [00:09:45] of photos or you show them the x ray, and you try and educate them on the x ray and explain what you’re [00:09:50] seeing, then your case acceptance rate is probably a lot higher. So at [00:09:55] the start I was doing a lot of amalgam fillings, but now I would say I’m probably [00:10:00] doing 3 or 4 a week maximum because most people would rather do a composite [00:10:05] filling, because when I go through the pros and cons, they appreciate the fact that I’ve actually [00:10:10] tried to make an effort to explain everything to them.

Patric Saraby: And I’ve shown them that aesthetically [00:10:15] and functionally, a composite filling can be much better than amalgam filling, although they [00:10:20] have to sit in the chair for much longer. In the long term, it’s much more worth it. So people [00:10:25] prefer to do composite fillings, um, if you give them the time and [00:10:30] the physical, um, explanation with photos so they know what [00:10:35] the difference is. Um, another thing that I’ve started doing is [00:10:40] I prefer to do zirconia crowns over the PFM crowns because [00:10:45] the PFM crowns, after a while they tend to chip away. So they’re [00:10:50] stronger because they have metal. But the patients will come back and say that [00:10:55] this crowns. Obviously there’s got a bit of metal showing because the crowns chipped away, the porcelain chipped away [00:11:00] over time, so koalas might not be as strong underneath because [00:11:05] it’s not metal, it’s an alloy. But if it does chip away a bit it’s still white. [00:11:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But I mean the the crown chipping is such a like a [00:11:15] something something’s been done wrong in the in the first place if the crowns chipping. Yeah yeah I wouldn’t, [00:11:20] I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t worry about that as the main issue as Laconia is bloody strong. So yeah it’s the strongest [00:11:25] thing in the world. Um, but I mean there’s other options, right. There’s, there’s Emax crowns. [00:11:30] There’s, there’s only so many things you could do. But your mum’s a dentist, right?

Patric Saraby: Yeah, [00:11:35] exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So you had an idea of what it is to be a dentist from her.

Patric Saraby: Yeah. [00:11:40] No. I used to go and spend time in her practice when I was younger. Um, [00:11:45] work experience, things like that during my free time sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: But was there ever, like, an [00:11:50] idea that you were going to be doing something else? Or were you always going to be intense?

Patric Saraby: Yeah. No. When [00:11:55] I was younger, I probably, if I’d be honest, I ever wanted to be a footballer. I’m nowhere near good enough [00:12:00] so that that didn’t work out very early on. Um, I also like the idea of [00:12:05] being a lawyer, because I feel like in series of films, they make [00:12:10] lawyer out to be like a really crazy job where you go to court, you’re having court battles. [00:12:15] Yeah, looks really exciting. So he’s kind of sold me on that. Um, and then [00:12:20] I have, uh, we have a family friend who’s a lawyer, and he told me it’s nothing like that. Yeah. [00:12:25] So, um. Yeah. No, I remember just going to watch my mum. I also [00:12:30] shadowed an orthodontist for a while. Um, and while Also. [00:12:35] I mean, some people absolutely love it. Um, but I personally, [00:12:40] I found it a little bit boring. But some people love it. But I thought it’s a really [00:12:45] clean job. So you spend time planning. Um, and [00:12:50] it’s also really rewarding because you have, like, kids coming to you that they grow [00:12:55] up knowing you essentially, and they come with obviously, um, [00:13:00] crowding or different classes of teeth that don’t match up together. And [00:13:05] when they leave, you’ve obviously done them a real big favour.

Patric Saraby: And they, they leave with straight [00:13:10] teeth. And I feel like it’s a really rewarding job at the same time. Um, and when I was shadowing [00:13:15] the orthodontist, I just saw the kind of the, the pleasure that he got out of his job. Uh, [00:13:20] and that’s something that’s very important. I think you need to have a job which [00:13:25] kind of sets your soul on fire and makes you feel like you’re doing [00:13:30] good things and benefiting the environment around you. So [00:13:35] a lot of the dentists actually in Bournemouth. Everyone knows them because obviously they work [00:13:40] local. It’s Bournemouth. It’s not that big of a place. Yeah. So you walk in the street, you go [00:13:45] to a fish and chip shop. You go to a coffee shop, you’re going to see some people that are your patients. Um, [00:13:50] and depending on the type of dentist you are, you’ll be well received or not [00:13:55] well received. So it’s important to try and put that good energy out. I think, uh, and [00:14:00] people will reciprocate it to you. And, uh, that’s one of the things I love about being [00:14:05] a dentist, because every day I go to work, I feel like I’m. I’m doing a good thing.

Payman Langroudi: Good [00:14:10] thing for society, you mean?

Patric Saraby: Absolutely. Yeah, especially. That’s another thing that [00:14:15] even if I start working. So I work private one day a week, fully private. Um, [00:14:20] um, I do work private the other days, but I have, like an two hour slot [00:14:25] to do private, and the rest is NHS. And sometimes I do NHS, [00:14:30] and if I see that the patient doesn’t have the funds. [00:14:35] Um, but they are very nice patient. I’ll just do a composite filling instead [00:14:40] of an amalgam because, um, it makes, well, 20 minutes difference [00:14:45] for me, but for them, they walk out and they’re really happy I made their day or something like that. [00:14:50] And, um, I feel like small acts of kindness like that not only [00:14:55] make my patients feel happier, but they make me feel happier as well. I feel like I’m doing [00:15:00] a good thing. Um, and I feel like I’m putting good energy out. So maybe [00:15:05] if I do a small favour for someone every day, then other people start doing that to other [00:15:10] people as well.

Payman Langroudi: Do you believe in karma?

Patric Saraby: Uh, I don’t believe. Well, yeah, no, I [00:15:15] do, but I wouldn’t call it karma. So as you, as you touched upon, my, um. I’m Persian, [00:15:20] and we believe in Zoroastrianism. Yeah. So good words, good [00:15:25] thoughts, good deeds. Um, and those three words my parents have [00:15:30] been saying to me for as long as I can remember.

Payman Langroudi: So use the restroom.

Patric Saraby: Yeah, [00:15:35] well, I’m not a proper Zoroastrian, but I follow the.

Payman Langroudi: Paid attention to what it says. [00:15:40]

Patric Saraby: Yeah, I paid attention to to to the, um, guidelines, [00:15:45] essentially. Um, we do all the Iranian traditions, like New Year’s [00:15:50] jumping over fire. This was the Russian stuff. But, um, I mean, I don’t believe in [00:15:55] Ahura Mazda like that. No, but.

Payman Langroudi: I believe in God.

Patric Saraby: I believe in a greater power. [00:16:00] Yeah. Greater power.

Payman Langroudi: And what’s it like? What’s. What’s the story with it?

Patric Saraby: Um. [00:16:05] Uh. So. Well, you. I was born in Sweden. I didn’t really believe [00:16:10] anything when I was in Sweden, because I was. I don’t really remember that much. I moved here when I was six, came here, went [00:16:15] to a Church of England school. I had to read the Bible a lot. Go to church a lot just because [00:16:20] of school. Um, didn’t really believe in that 100%, obviously [00:16:25] in Iran. Um, Islam is a big thing. I went to Iran when I was five. [00:16:30] I saw all my family. Obviously headscarves and all that stuff didn’t [00:16:35] really resonate with me either. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But the greater power that [00:16:40] you’re talking about is what? What’s it doing? Is it.

Patric Saraby: Watching? I don’t believe that someone created [00:16:45] the planet like that, but I believe that there’s definitely a thing where if you are [00:16:50] a good person, good things come back to you as well.

Payman Langroudi: Like karma?

Patric Saraby: Yeah. Like karma. [00:16:55] So that’s what I mean. Not karma in the religious sense of it, but karma in the in [00:17:00] the sense of the word. Yeah, I definitely believe in.

Payman Langroudi: But do you think that’s just like, practical [00:17:05] or do you think it’s supernatural? Because obviously [00:17:10] if I’m nice to you, you’re nice. Back to me. Yeah. It’s practical.

Patric Saraby: Well, it could.

Payman Langroudi: It could. [00:17:15] Some people.

Patric Saraby: Could be a combination of both.

Payman Langroudi: Supernatural. But some. Some people believe that if [00:17:20] I find £20 on the floor. Yeah. And I put it in my pocket and I don’t [00:17:25] look around and say, does this belong to anyone? Yeah. And then I go and buy something [00:17:30] with that £20. Yeah. That thing will come back and get me somehow, [00:17:35] because of my bad karma, that I.

Patric Saraby: Get a sense of your conscience eating away at you as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:17:40] that that’s so. So. I’d say that’s more practical.

Patric Saraby: Yeah, well, that’s what I mean. That’s what I mean by. [00:17:45] It could be a combination of both things. So if you put your £20 [00:17:50] note up in the air and you wave it around and you ask, does this belong to someone? [00:17:55] If you afterwards put that £20 note in your pocket after no one’s.

Payman Langroudi: Feel good about. [00:18:00]

Patric Saraby: It, you don’t feel bad about it. Yeah. So there’s the practical difference. And [00:18:05] there’s also a supernatural sense of, well, I mean, I asked to wave the £20 note around [00:18:10] maybe with that £20 note, you go and buy a sandwich for a homeless person or something like that, because it’s [00:18:15] this money you found on the floor.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s an interesting question, right? I [00:18:20] used to bother myself a lot with is there a god or isn’t there a god? Yeah, but now [00:18:25] I’m much more bothered with this idea of should there be a god or shouldn’t there be a good.

Patric Saraby: See, [00:18:30] I, I struggle with there being a God because.

Payman Langroudi: But what I mean by God [00:18:35] is third party something, some power. Yeah. Assessing [00:18:40] what’s going on. That that question. Should that be a thing or should [00:18:45] it shouldn’t it be forget whether it is or it is.

Patric Saraby: I struggle with that idea.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re saying you don’t like there to [00:18:50] be a third party looking down? Checking.

Patric Saraby: I would like it. And you.

Payman Langroudi: Should.

Patric Saraby: Be. I [00:18:55] would, I would like that idea. Yeah. But the. So so I [00:19:00] have to bring this back to my education as a child. Yeah. Iranians, [00:19:05] we have a complicated relationship with religion because of what’s happened in [00:19:10] our country.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a good way to put it.

Patric Saraby: Yeah, it’s definitely a good way to put it because [00:19:15] they used scripture to essentially take over the country. Um, [00:19:20] and they managed to pull the wool over a whole 70 million [00:19:25] people’s eyes, which is incredible. And they managed to do that with the Word of God. Now, [00:19:30] the reason I struggle with it is if God was watching [00:19:35] the people who were in charge of Iran using His Word in the way that they’ve used it for [00:19:40] the last 40 years, to essentially clamp people’s voices [00:19:45] and freedom in the country, surely God would do something about that. And there’s there’s [00:19:50] much worse example.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, there’s some some child was born today and tomorrow [00:19:55] the bomb dropped on the child.

Patric Saraby: Yeah, that’s what I mean. There’s much worse examples than that as [00:20:00] well. But but I just I just struggle with this concept of, um. [00:20:05]

Payman Langroudi: No, but but but people who believe think, you know, God moves in mysterious ways. [00:20:10] You know, like like you’re not qualified to. And that’s like, that’s.

Patric Saraby: Such a vague answer is.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:20:15] yeah, yeah, yeah.

Patric Saraby: You can get away with saying anything if you’re going to be a god. God works in [00:20:20] mysterious ways. Um, and I do believe that religion is also [00:20:25] something to do with family.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah.

Patric Saraby: Of course. It’s it’s from your roots. A lot of [00:20:30] people identify it with their culture. Um, and. Yeah. No, because [00:20:35] I’m Iranian, I just have a different sense of it because obviously, [00:20:40] I don’t want to say, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Pigeonhole yourself like that. I [00:20:45] mean, my point is this. Yeah, that some people think if there is no God, there is [00:20:50] no good. Some people believe that. Yeah. And so they think, well, if there [00:20:55] wasn’t someone looking over you, we’d all go kill each other and, you know, [00:21:00] steal from each other or something like this. Yeah. My point, though, is when a herd of elephants [00:21:05] is walking across the. So the savanna, the the grassland. [00:21:10] Yeah. They’re not messing each other up and fighting each other like they’re just being a [00:21:15] species. Yeah, absolutely. And so all morality doesn’t have to have come from [00:21:20] this higher power. Like morality in itself is like a boomerang. [00:21:25]

Patric Saraby: It’s a different.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a moving target in itself. Yeah, absolutely. But it doesn’t [00:21:30] mean just because I don’t believe or haven’t got the rule book looking down on me [00:21:35] that I’m going to go and steal from you. Yeah. You know, there’s separate things like, you know, as I say, [00:21:40] the elephants aren’t messing each other up.

Patric Saraby: Perhaps, perhaps. I mean, the world [00:21:45] has changed a lot. Mhm. And when religion was really big, uh, in the, I [00:21:50] mean, the Catholic Times in Europe, they didn’t have the [00:21:55] police, the technology um to, to stop thieves and things like that. [00:22:00] So a really good way of stopping people from doing bad things.

Payman Langroudi: Certainly people use religion, [00:22:05] right.

Patric Saraby: It’s by saying, well, there’s God and His word is this, uh, [00:22:10] and therefore you shouldn’t do.

Payman Langroudi: But but, you know, people misuse all sorts of stuff, right? People misuse the internet. [00:22:15] Yeah. But I still want the internet. Yeah. You know. You know what I mean? Like the misuse part we all get, [00:22:20] right? All the wars, all the everything that can happen because. But I’m talking about that notion [00:22:25] of third party. Yeah, it’s quite interesting because if we could arrange it. Right. Cameras everywhere [00:22:30] could have some.

Patric Saraby: I think big.

Payman Langroudi: Brother. Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. Do we want that [00:22:35] or not? Is that. Is that. Would that make the world a better place? Listen, man, I don’t think so. Yeah, I.

Patric Saraby: Don’t [00:22:40] agree as well, because I think that you need to have your own privacy. Yeah. And [00:22:45] honestly, decision making should come from within. I mean, you shouldn’t do [00:22:50] something because you think, oh, that’s right. The big man upstairs would want me to do that. You should do it [00:22:55] because you want to do it.

Payman Langroudi: That’s also a brilliant point, right? That’s also a brilliant point. So funny aside. [00:23:00] Let’s keep going. So you wanted to go [00:23:05] to dentistry in the UK? Yeah. That was your goal?

Patric Saraby: Yeah. No. Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: 18 [00:23:10] year old.

Patric Saraby: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What happened?

Patric Saraby: Um. So I took my A-levels. [00:23:15] Um, and honestly, A-levels are difficult, so I probably [00:23:20] underestimated my A-levels a little bit. Uh, and I thought that, you know, I’m a, [00:23:25] I’m at a grammar school, like, I’m. This should be like a walk in the park. I [00:23:30] get some results, and I open the envelope, and I had a, a, B, and [00:23:35] my offer was a a start. So through [00:23:40] clearing, I had another option for another university, which did accept me. [00:23:45] I’m not going to name the university. Um, just out of respect for them. But I went and had a look [00:23:50] and it wasn’t where I saw myself living for the next five years.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t let it down. [00:23:55]

Patric Saraby: No, no, no. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And you were brought up in Bournemouth. So you were looking [00:24:00] forward to coming to the big city. London?

Patric Saraby: Exactly. I mean, Bournemouth was one of those places where if [00:24:05] you go to Europe and you tell people I’m from the UK, they’re going to say, where are you from? And I’ll [00:24:10] be like Bournemouth and they’ll be like, where’s that? And I’ll be like, well, London basically, because they don’t say [00:24:15] they don’t know. So you just have to round it up to the nearest big city. And in the south of [00:24:20] England, that’s London. And then they start asking you questions about London. You’re like, Are Southampton? [00:24:25]

Payman Langroudi: Bombers cool though I’ve been to pools. [00:24:30] Very cool.

Patric Saraby: Yeah. Pools. Nice pools. I actually live in pool. Do you do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah.

Patric Saraby: Yeah. [00:24:35] No, pool is nice.

Payman Langroudi: So. So you wanted to go and then what? You were heartbroken? Obviously.

Patric Saraby: Yeah. No. Absolutely. [00:24:40] Like, um, that’s one of the things they don’t tell you about resorts. They like, if it doesn’t [00:24:45] go to plan, there’s nothing to pick up the pieces except you. Your parents don’t know what to do. My parents [00:24:50] didn’t grow up in this country. They have no idea how it works. Yeah. Um, the teachers, I mean, they’re they’re [00:24:55] just going to console you on the day, but they’re not going to help you fix everything afterwards. [00:25:00] So the immediate routes you’re left with is the UK route. Okay. I get somewhere [00:25:05] else through clearing, which is not my first choice, but I take whatever’s on the table, which I really didn’t [00:25:10] want to do because I had everything planned out. Um, and I was really sad that it didn’t go the way I planned [00:25:15] out.

Payman Langroudi: We didn’t even try to find another place.

Patric Saraby: Um, I didn’t, I [00:25:20] just.

Payman Langroudi: In.

Patric Saraby: The UK? No. I just thought, if it’s not London, then I don’t want it. Which in hindsight, [00:25:25] maybe I could have looked like up north or something like that. But I was just [00:25:30] 14.

Payman Langroudi: There’s 14 dental schools for me.

Patric Saraby: There’s not enough dental schools as well. I actually genuinely [00:25:35] believe that. So in the south of England, in Southampton, Bournemouth, we don’t have any. There’s [00:25:40] Bristol and then there’s London. But those are 2.5 hour drives away. Yeah. So there’s [00:25:45] absolutely no university. I know Portsmouth have just started a dental therapy course [00:25:50] or something like that, which is really good because we need more, uh, people in dentistry in the UK, [00:25:55] but still there’s no cause for dentistry or anything like that. Plymouth [00:26:00] is, I mean, not too far away, I guess, but it’s it’s in the corner of the country. So. [00:26:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But Bristol, Cardiff. Manchester. Birmingham. That’s true. Glasgow.

Patric Saraby: That’s true, but it’s [00:26:10] not.

Payman Langroudi: You did not want those.

Patric Saraby: It’s another thing is because I’m from Bournemouth. [00:26:15] I’d never been to any of those places. Do you know? I’ve been to London and I [00:26:20] grew up for years just thinking. London. London. London. So. So [00:26:25] if you’re going to say like Liverpool to me, I’m just thinking, wow.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Patric Saraby: Amazing [00:26:30] town. It could be anywhere. I’m sure it’s amazing town. I think I’ve been in John Lennon Airport once, [00:26:35] but I’ve never actually seen Liverpool.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Patric Saraby: It’s like, um, it was just unchartered [00:26:40] territory.

Payman Langroudi: But but then so. So then you thought what [00:26:45] had the idea of abroad even come across your mind before this moment? [00:26:50] Like, was there something you heard that said, if I don’t get into things, I’m going to look abroad? Or did that happen [00:26:55] after you got your results?

Patric Saraby: I think it was, I know, no, it happened after I got [00:27:00] my results 100%.

Payman Langroudi: In the All on Kings.

Patric Saraby: Yeah, yeah, I pinned everything on Kings. Um, that was [00:27:05] that was the choice. That was what I wanted to do. Um, and then.

Payman Langroudi: So then you spoke [00:27:10] to your parents?

Patric Saraby: I spoke to my parents, and my parents said, look, um, [00:27:15] my my parents obviously didn’t study in the UK themselves. They studied in Sweden. [00:27:20] So they said, well, you could look at going to another country such as Sweden [00:27:25] because you’re Swedish. You have a Swedish passport. If you go to Sweden, University is free there. And [00:27:30] I looked into Sweden and I just thought Sweden’s cold Sweden [00:27:35] is really cold and there’s no sunlight in the winter. So it’s. [00:27:40]

Payman Langroudi: In Sweden. Were you for the first six years?

Patric Saraby: Stockholm. Stockholm. So it’s really, really great [00:27:45] place. But it’s cold and it’s dark. And I just. I remember the cold in the [00:27:50] dark. My sister doesn’t remember it. She loves Sweden because she’s a bit younger than me. But I remember Sweden [00:27:55] at its worst as well as its best and at its best. It’s a fantastic place, [00:28:00] really good culture, really nice people. Um, and then I just started thinking, well, [00:28:05] if I if I’ve got a kind of free hit here, then let’s have a look at all of [00:28:10] Europe. And I have cousins who are from the Canary Islands. So [00:28:15] I’ve been to Madrid, I’ve been to Barcelona, I’ve been I’ve been to Spain quite a few [00:28:20] times and I just really like Spain. Another thing about Spain is [00:28:25] that the culture is not too far away from my own culture. At home there really warm [00:28:30] blooded people, as we would say in Persian. They’re very kind. They’re willing [00:28:35] to help you. They’re quite inviting.

Payman Langroudi: Um, great countries.

Patric Saraby: Yeah. It’s fantastic, [00:28:40] but the culture is what makes it so, so, so great. Like, um, [00:28:45] I’ve for my friends watching this, I always tell them, like Iran, if [00:28:50] if the ayatollahs aren’t there, it’s an amazing country. And people just treat you so [00:28:55] nice. They’re so happy to receive tourists. Actually, they will literally take the shirt off [00:29:00] their back and give it to you. And I feel like Spain is quite similar in terms of that [00:29:05] culture, which was really important to me. I never felt like, um, like I [00:29:10] was treated as if I was Spanish. No one ever said, you, you look different or [00:29:15] you speak different or anything like that. I mean, maybe I could get away with looking Spanish, but they just treated [00:29:20] me like I was one of them. And that was probably the nicest thing that anyone could ever do [00:29:25] for you. When you leave your parents and your country to live somewhere else. [00:29:30] Um, and that warmth really helped me excel [00:29:35] at uni. So I just picked up the bat and I just kept running [00:29:40] with it and it was incredible.

Payman Langroudi: I can relate to what you’re saying because funny [00:29:45] is that might sound to you. Yeah, I felt like that in Cardiff. Yeah. Welsh people very, [00:29:50] very different to English people. Yeah, yeah, very warm family sort of orientated. I [00:29:55] was like, wow, I’ve lived in London for 30 years or whatever. It wasn’t, but by that time it was like [00:30:00] 18 years. Yeah, actually 12 years. Yeah. Because [00:30:05] I came at six. Um, I’ve lived in London for 12 years, and yet in Cardiff, somehow I [00:30:10] feel more at home a little bit in a weird, weird way.

Patric Saraby: There’s also a weird culture in the UK, [00:30:15] though, and I feel like I’ve noticed this since I’ve come back. And don’t get me wrong, I love all my friends [00:30:20] in the UK, but there’s this weird culture of if you see someone driving a Ferrari [00:30:25] in the UK, you look at the car and you’re like, oh, what a show off! [00:30:30] Yeah. If you see someone driving a Ferrari in the United States or in [00:30:35] Spain or whatever, you go up to the guy and say, what do you do for a living? And how can I get to where you are? Yeah. [00:30:40] So there’s not that culture.

Payman Langroudi: Where you get it right, because Sweden is even more.

Patric Saraby: Yeah, yeah, Sweden is even [00:30:45] more like that. But this is a weird culture, right? Because I mean, okay, he’s got [00:30:50] a Ferrari, but why does it upset you?

Payman Langroudi: What you do, you don’t get it from the Sweden perspective. [00:30:55]

Patric Saraby: I mean, I do that’s about showing off and that’s embedded in their culture. But [00:31:00] in the UK it is difficult because it’s almost like I feel like sometimes [00:31:05] people don’t want you to see you doing better than them. I genuinely feel like that in the UK and sometimes, [00:31:10] um, it spikes people. Um, and I feel [00:31:15] like abroad there’s not as much of a culture as as that. I mean, [00:31:20] in the United States, they’re very obviously embedded in capitalism and doing well. And, uh, they [00:31:25] love their podcasts and stuff like that. They get people.

Payman Langroudi: On. Have you been to America?

Patric Saraby: I have been to America. Yeah, [00:31:30] I actually was in America in the summer, but I was in Miami, so everyone spoke Spanish. It was. Yeah, that’s not America. [00:31:35] It’s not really America.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the thing. I of course I know what you’re talking [00:31:40] about. Of course I hear you. Like, if I was going to raise money for a new business. Yeah, [00:31:45] I would rather do that in America than here. Or somewhere like Dubai. Somewhere. [00:31:50] Somewhere can do. Yeah. Where you say, I’ve got a new idea for a business.

Patric Saraby: Yeah, that word can [00:31:55] do. That’s pretty much. Yeah, that’s pretty much it actually.

Payman Langroudi: I get it. But also, [00:32:00] I prefer living here to living. Living in America.

Patric Saraby: Oh, yeah. No, [00:32:05] it’s not necessarily.

Payman Langroudi: Some people prefer living in America. That’s true. Yeah. And the reason is [00:32:10] I find America a little bit aggressively capitalist.

Patric Saraby: Yeah. No, definitely.

Payman Langroudi: That’s almost the [00:32:15] only thing that matters is how much money you have.

Patric Saraby: Well, I would say.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Now, by [00:32:20] the way, by the way, by the way, at least you know what it’s about. It’s about money.

Patric Saraby: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So at least we know [00:32:25] what it’s about. It’s like here. It’s kind of like a moving target. Yeah. Like you’re not really [00:32:30] sure. Like, it doesn’t matter how much money you’ve got. You may never get into that. The gentleman’s [00:32:35] club or whatever it is. Yeah.

Patric Saraby: You can’t compare America with any other country in the world when it comes [00:32:40] to money. Like they are just work.

Payman Langroudi: Out all about the money.

Patric Saraby: All about the money. They [00:32:45] they take. What is it? Two weeks of vacation a year?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Patric Saraby: Two weeks in your whole year. [00:32:50]

Payman Langroudi: I remember, I remember once I was in skiing in America, and I broke my goggles. [00:32:55] I went to get some new goggles, and I looked. And you know how the service, the service [00:33:00] over the moon, the amazing service. And she was opening up all these boxes for me. I [00:33:05] was trying them on. I was asking questions, and then I genuinely wanted to buy [00:33:10] one of them. Yeah. Put my hand in my pocket and I’d left my wallet on the table in the restaurant with [00:33:15] my friends, and I said, oh, I’m sorry, I haven’t got my wallet yet. And this person who was [00:33:20] like, so super sweet and lovely, she suddenly looked [00:33:25] at me like, I’m some sort of like, thief. Yeah, but put everything away and that [00:33:30] switch. Yeah. Like it was scary. It was scary, right? Yeah. Who’d been to Canada? [00:33:35]

Patric Saraby: Um, I’ve not, but I’ve got family in Canada. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Canada’s like, got everything America’s got, but with [00:33:40] nice people. It’s a nice thing about. Yeah, it’s a nice thing. I haven’t [00:33:45] been to Australia.

Patric Saraby: No, that’s that’s on my list. I’ve got a friend who just moved out there recently [00:33:50] and he is. He’s absolutely loving it. And he’s moved to Sydney and he’s saying it’s basically [00:33:55] a better version of the UK, but they have better weather. The only [00:34:00] problem with Australia is just too far away. I couldn’t live there. I’m like, I [00:34:05] couldn’t not see my parents for a long time. Like it would be difficult living out [00:34:10] there.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny thing. Like if I said to you, what is the better place to live? Stockholm [00:34:15] or Barcelona? If you look at that in a linear way. Yeah, [00:34:20] linear and in a linear way, it would be like, alright, let’s count all the things that are right about Stockholm. [00:34:25] All right. This. It’s clean. The people are law abiding. Oh, yeah. All those hundred [00:34:30] things that are amazing about Sweden. Yeah. And then if you count the same thing about Spain. [00:34:35] Yeah. And you might have Sweden might come in with 67 brilliant things [00:34:40] and five bad things, and Spain might be even the other way around. Yeah. If [00:34:45] you’re thinking in a linear way, you’d say, well, obviously Sweden’s a better place to live than Spain, [00:34:50] but sometimes it’s those 4 or 5 things are the or [00:34:55] so important, so you can’t think of it in a linear way.

Patric Saraby: Complicated topic. So I [00:35:00] speak about this topic with my Spanish friends and with my girlfriend a lot. And [00:35:05] the issue with Spain is, as you said, there’s pros [00:35:10] and cons, the pros, there’s an incredible quality of life. Like people, they don’t [00:35:15] drink much in Spain. They go out, they have some food with their friends, they go play tennis [00:35:20] or paddle or they’re out and just doing stuff outside, which is really [00:35:25] great. But the working hours and the money you’re paid in Spain, as a dentist, it’s nowhere [00:35:30] near what you would earn in the UK. So if you have to sacrifice one [00:35:35] thing to get another thing, so it’s it’s ultimately up to [00:35:40] you. I mean, you have to write down the lists of reasons on a piece of paper and you have [00:35:45] to think, well, which one is more important?

Payman Langroudi: So What? What is the important one?

Patric Saraby: You [00:35:50] can do that for any country, I think. Yeah, yeah. Of course. So that’s, um. I think [00:35:55] as a student, actually. Spain was the most incredible country I could have gone through because. [00:36:00] No. No responsibilities. Um, honestly.

Payman Langroudi: What was the what was the process [00:36:05] for getting into Barcelona like?

Patric Saraby: So I sent my, uh, [00:36:10] A-levels. They had no problem with that. Really happy with that. They told me, we want you to get a [00:36:15] flight over, um, and do an interview and, like, um, entrance examination to [00:36:20] join our English, uh, course for the first two years and then after.

Payman Langroudi: English [00:36:25] language dentistry course.

Patric Saraby: Exactly. So the first two years, purely in English, uh, and they give [00:36:30] you that as kind of like a buffer zone to learn the Spanish language and then go into the third [00:36:35] year.

Payman Langroudi: You just gave your A-level results and they said, cool, you’re coming. Yeah.

Patric Saraby: They said, they said, come and do an interview. [00:36:40] So they wanted to speak to me. I went to do the interview and they had a weird exam that was [00:36:45] I feel like it was their version of the UK cat like shapes and nothing to do with dentistry. [00:36:50] A bit of general knowledge and an English exam actually as well. Which which was funny [00:36:55] because, I mean, I’d never been asked to do, um, an English exam since GCSE, [00:37:00] so I didn’t take it for A-levels and the exam was, well, I don’t want to be rude, but it’s [00:37:05] really easy because it was to try and see who’s got like a B1 level, which is not not.

Payman Langroudi: Like [00:37:10] testing someone who’s coming from.

Patric Saraby: But then I had.

Payman Langroudi: Somewhere else.

Patric Saraby: Had like French kids sing to my side and [00:37:15] I could see they were like pulling their hair up, really, really stressed out. Like this exam is really difficult. And [00:37:20] I was thinking what a privilege that I, that I grew up in England and I, and I came here, um, [00:37:25] did the interview, another thing which no one told me about, and I had absolutely no, no clue about [00:37:30] the British accent abroad is that it’s really something over [00:37:35] there, like here. You don’t notice because everyone has it. Yeah, but you go abroad like I remember. I’m in [00:37:40] the interview and I, we just started talking and she’s looking at me like. And [00:37:45] I was thinking, well, no one’s ever looked at me like that before. Um. And. Yeah. No, it’s [00:37:50] it’s something that if you stand up, you do a presentation or you do a speech or something, people just immediately look at you like, wow. [00:37:55] And that’s something that people here don’t really realise. If you go and you work abroad for a little bit [00:38:00] or you do a course or something abroad, like, uh, just immediately because of your accent, people really take [00:38:05] to you and they want to hang out with you as well because they want to improve their English. It honestly, it works [00:38:10] like that. I had a lot of Spanish people that became my friends just because at the same time as I was [00:38:15] learning Spanish, they were learning English. So it was a vice versa kind of relationship.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:38:20] so what did you when you said, I’m going to have you interviewed? They [00:38:25] said, okay, you’re in.

Patric Saraby: Did the interview happen? In the interview they said, yeah, we’re going to give you the place.

Payman Langroudi: What were the [00:38:30] costs?

Patric Saraby: Um, so the cost was €12,000 a year, [00:38:35] which equates it to about £10,000 a year, which is more [00:38:40] or less what you pay in this country to go to university as well. The living costs are a [00:38:45] part, I’ll be honest. My parents had to help me out with that.

Payman Langroudi: Um, they paid for the university.

Patric Saraby: The [00:38:50] the the the university.

Payman Langroudi: They they also.

Patric Saraby: Paid. Yeah, they paid for that as well. But [00:38:55] the living cost was something that obviously didn’t come into the equation.

Payman Langroudi: Like, how much did you spend?

Patric Saraby: Well, [00:39:00] probably I’d say it was around 20,000 a year, [00:39:05] more or less.

Payman Langroudi: On top of the 10,000.

Patric Saraby: No no no no. In total. Oh, really? Yeah. Like [00:39:10] this. This is another thing. So Spain is not that expensive compared to here. [00:39:15] And you’re obviously we use British pounds here. So the conversion rate when [00:39:20] you’re using £1,000 is like 1.2, 1.3, something like that.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:39:25] that thousand pounds a month or whatever was paying for your rent, your food, your everything. [00:39:30] I travel everything.

Patric Saraby: I to be honest, I didn’t need to spend [00:39:35] that much in the first few years because I didn’t really have any friends at the start until [00:39:40] I met my classmates. Um, and yeah, we would go out and stuff, but it was it wasn’t [00:39:45] anything too over there. We wouldn’t go out and get tables and nightclubs, for example. Yeah. Like, uh, and [00:39:50] you try and save up. So if you went on a skiing trip or something, you had enough funds. [00:39:55]

Payman Langroudi: So the first two years was only with kind of foreign [00:40:00] students.

Patric Saraby: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: In English. And what did that cover?

Patric Saraby: Um, was [00:40:05] that non-clinical? The first year was absolutely non-clinical. We did a bit of. We did a bit of dental anatomy. [00:40:10] We generally anatomy. Now they have this really good thing in [00:40:15] Spain where if you finish first in the exam in the year, they pay you back [00:40:20] the subject. So they just give you one point K off 1.5 K off the next year. So I [00:40:25] had no idea. And I think Dental asked me, I got it in like the [00:40:30] anatomy of the human body. And then there was an English for dentistry, which was really, I [00:40:35] mean, directed towards the European.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Patric Saraby: And um, I got it in that as well, obviously, because [00:40:40] English is like a first language to me. Yeah. So, um, my, my [00:40:45] dad comes into my room and it was Covid times and he goes like, I’ve just got an email from the union and [00:40:50] I’m thinking.

Payman Langroudi: Something’s gone.

Patric Saraby: Wrong. What have I done? I’m just going through the list of [00:40:55] things in my head. And he said, yeah, they’ve they’ve taken off like 4K for your for your feet next [00:41:00] year. Amazing. I was thinking wow. So I had no idea about what’s called the matrix. And [00:41:05] this is a thing in Spain where if.

Payman Langroudi: You only if the guy who comes.

Patric Saraby: Top. Yeah. Only for the guy or it’s the top [00:41:10] three or something like that. So if it’s very close, it’s like top three.

Payman Langroudi: Did you study your butt off?

Patric Saraby: Um, [00:41:15] I would say so in the first couple of years. Yeah. And then when we went [00:41:20] met the Spanish kids, then it was much harder because then it was.

Payman Langroudi: Because the fun [00:41:25] started.

Patric Saraby: The fun started, but also the language changed.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yes.

Patric Saraby: Yes, yes. So to [00:41:30] come in the top for the Spanish.

Payman Langroudi: Guys was hard.

Patric Saraby: Right? Yeah. Well, um, [00:41:35] not only because they had a massive advantage with the language, they [00:41:40] were also at home, so they go home. Foods in the fridge. Like in [00:41:45] Spain, you don’t go to a different city or town, or you go to uni where you’re [00:41:50] from. Oh really? So most of them live at home. If you’re living at home, it’s it’s much easier [00:41:55] to I mean, you don’t have to wash your clothes. You don’t have to go to the supermarket. [00:42:00] Life’s a lot easier when you live at home. Um, and we [00:42:05] had to obviously compete against that. So it was more difficult in the last few years to to try [00:42:10] and really get the tricolour. Um, I think now [00:42:15] in my last ever grade, I got, I got one with my dissertation, which was really nice [00:42:20] kind of send off from university, but yeah. No, it was it’s I feel like, um, [00:42:25] it’s a nice carrot.

Payman Langroudi: And did you have to learn both [00:42:30] Spanish and Catalan?

Patric Saraby: No, I had to. So you have to learn [00:42:35] Spanish for to speak with the patients. That was the first thing that really hit [00:42:40] me because in third year we started clinics. And immediately you’re you’re [00:42:45] sat with people who don’t speak English as your patients. So you have to speak [00:42:50] Spanish. You don’t have a choice.

Payman Langroudi: Who taught you Spanish? Was that part of the course or not? Separate. You had to learn that [00:42:55] by yourself.

Patric Saraby: So this is actually funny because if my dad watches this whole life. My dad lived in Madrid when [00:43:00] he was younger. He moved from Iran, and the only country that accepted him before Sweden was [00:43:05] Spain. So he moved to Madrid and he learned Spanish by just going out and [00:43:10] speaking to people. Yeah. Um, so he told me I didn’t have any lessons. And [00:43:15] conscious of the fact that my parents were paying for everything, I said to my dad, well, I’m not going to need lessons as well. So [00:43:20] I just we just used to go to, like, house parties and then over [00:43:25] time managed to just pick up a bit of Spanish, got better, met [00:43:30] my girlfriend and that that really, um, brought me to another level with the language. But [00:43:35] you have to learn then, because then the parents are involved.

Payman Langroudi: The grandparents in [00:43:40] a language. So, like, how long did you think it took before you thought, wow, I can speak a bit [00:43:45] Spanish.

Patric Saraby: Wow. So I honestly, I’ll be I’ll be real. I came home in the [00:43:50] summer of after the second year, and my parents told me, you need to study Spanish because next [00:43:55] year is in Spanish. And I thought, no, like I’m. You already know [00:44:00] I was. I was thinking like, I’m a pretty good student. Like, this should be easy. It [00:44:05] wasn’t easy. The third, third year I started and I had no clue what I was doing, and [00:44:10] then I then it hit me like I need to, I need to start putting effort in. And then third [00:44:15] year was when I failed an exam for the first time, actually in uni I had and I remember [00:44:20] just getting the result and I was thinking like, this can’t be real, this, this can’t be possible. Um, [00:44:25] and then I really started putting effort in and I’d say by For [00:44:30] fear I. I learned Spanish enough that [00:44:35] I could speak it to people. Speak it to patients. Answer exam questions. By [00:44:40] the end of fourth year, I was really decent at Spanish. And [00:44:45] by the end of fifth year, I started understanding Catalan as well. So [00:44:50] now I’m in a pretty good place with both of them. I’m better at Spanish. But if I had to hold [00:44:55] a conversation in Catalan, I think I could do so quite comfortably.

Payman Langroudi: But how did that happen?

Patric Saraby: Just [00:45:00] by being around people who spoke Catalan. So the words is [00:45:05] different from Spanish, but it’s not super different. So if you’re listening to [00:45:10] people who just speak Catalan, which I had a lot of friends who they didn’t like speaking Spanish because [00:45:15] they spoke Catalan at home. So they preferred speaking Catalan. Um, [00:45:20] and I’d just be sat around them. I had, um, I’d be with their family sometimes as well [00:45:25] because they’re really inviting. They’re like Persian people. They’re like, come to our house, we’re going to have some food and [00:45:30] you stay the whole day there with their family. And slowly the words start to make sense. [00:45:35] Slowly start translating and putting sentences [00:45:40] together in your head. And then one day, just inadvertently, I realised. [00:45:45] So I heard someone speaking and I thought, I understand everything. It’s [00:45:50] like it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Really Z’s and X’s in Catalan, huh?

Patric Saraby: Yeah, there’s a lot of X’s. Z’s? [00:45:55] Yeah. It’s it’s it’s, um, it’s it’s a difficult language, actually. I think it’s a very [00:46:00] difficult language, but when you kind of learn a few [00:46:05] phrases and you start to put together sentences, then it’s suddenly not so difficult. Like, um, [00:46:10] I remember I went to a football match, Bournemouth, Man City, and, um, [00:46:15] I was trying to get a picture with Pep Guardiola because I’m, I love football, [00:46:20] I love pep and what he’s done in football. And there was loads of [00:46:25] kids lined up saying shouting please, please come for a photo. And [00:46:30] I just thought, well, I’ll give it a shot. And I shouted please in Catalan. And he turned around [00:46:35] and looked at me and he went, we’ll get a photo. Yeah. I just [00:46:40] remember thinking like that, that if I didn’t speak the language, he would never have even [00:46:45] looked at me. So that’s what I mean by when I said earlier, languages are like a like a key to someone’s heart. [00:46:50] If you speak the same language as someone, immediately the respect goes up for you. Especially [00:46:55] if you’re not.

Payman Langroudi: From Spanish speaking Spanish people.

Patric Saraby: Definitely. But this is this [00:47:00] is an officer. I, um, I met a guy who’s German and he spoke Farsi, [00:47:05] and I was.

Payman Langroudi: Hal.

Patric Saraby: Awestruck. So he worked in an [00:47:10] embassy in Tehran when he was younger.

Payman Langroudi: I met one like that.

Patric Saraby: Yeah, I was, I was [00:47:15] just amazed. You can speak Farsi. No, no one can speak Farsi unless they’re [00:47:20] from Iran with their parents.

Payman Langroudi: A couple of English guys who can speak vastly better than most people I’ve ever [00:47:25] seen.

Patric Saraby: It takes you back, though.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

Patric Saraby: You just can’t believe it.

Payman Langroudi: For.

Patric Saraby: Sure. The same way I [00:47:30] went to Mexico in the summer with my uni mates. Um. And the Mexicans couldn’t [00:47:35] believe that I spoke Spanish, but I’m from England. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My parents are Iranian. [00:47:40] How do you speak Spanish? And they were just really, really impressed by it. And I was thinking, like, [00:47:45] it’s a nice feeling when someone says that to you as well because you’re like, okay, I put the effort [00:47:50] in to learn the language.

Payman Langroudi: You know, some places in Barcelona, I’m going to have to talk to you afterwards because I’m going for that Dental forum [00:47:55] event. Oh, yeah.

Patric Saraby: You might see you might see a few of my professors there, actually.

Payman Langroudi: Well, go for [00:48:00] it. It’s an event that it’s an event where they speak date corporates.

Patric Saraby: Oh [00:48:05] right. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. With suppliers from here. Yeah, but it’s all done over there.

Patric Saraby: It’s all done over there because it’s a nicer [00:48:10] place.

Payman Langroudi: To get people there. Yeah, just get people to it.

Patric Saraby: Yeah. It’s nice.

Payman Langroudi: Actually. And we’ll be there.

Patric Saraby: I’m sure. [00:48:15] Yeah. It’s a nice way to expense your holiday as well. No, it’s a good one.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it is for them. Right. So [00:48:20] the corporate, the corporate corporate free. Yeah, yeah.

Patric Saraby: Even pay it off. I don’t think of that.

Payman Langroudi: And then they charge [00:48:25] us. But it’s actually a very good business model.

Patric Saraby: Because they might have to ask Bupa if I can represent [00:48:30] them out there.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I think they will. Yeah. So you’re [00:48:35] going to tell me about special places in Boston? Absolutely. Yeah.

Patric Saraby: Yeah, of course I’ve got a list actually.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [00:48:40] talk about let’s talk about the course. Was there quotas. Did you have to do a certain number of root [00:48:45] canals, a certain number of crowns or so.

Patric Saraby: Yeah. They had that in theory. But like [00:48:50] they gave us a list of that in the last year. Um, you have to do this many of this May treatments, [00:48:55] but the treatments you get, it’s down to luck that you have a patient [00:49:00] that comes in, sits down in the chair, and you do the, um, exam. You [00:49:05] obviously tell the patient you need this, this, this, this. I mean, it’s it’s completely [00:49:10] up to luck. If some people got, like, five root canals because they had a patient that needed five root [00:49:15] canals, some people had one root canal because they just didn’t have any patients that came in with a [00:49:20] root canal. So.

Payman Langroudi: So they didn’t hold you to the quotas?

Patric Saraby: They didn’t hold us to the quotas. [00:49:25] And they said they would, because I feel like they needed to give people like, um, [00:49:30] a kick up the ass to to say you need to do everything and you can’t have the fear [00:49:35] of of doing so. You can’t shy away from doing something because you have to meet the quota. And we got to the end [00:49:40] of the year. And then like the last two weeks, they were like, no, I mean, if you didn’t hit the quota, we’re not not going to let you [00:49:45] graduate. But like we said that so that people would have gone for a treatment instead [00:49:50] of thinking like, okay, I’ll pass this over to my partner because I don’t feel 100% confident, [00:49:55] which I think is actually a good idea because, uh, you need to put people out of their comfort zone, especially [00:50:00] when they’re studying. Um, I think that you need to try and do treatments [00:50:05] because like I said, when I started working NHS the first few months, [00:50:10] there’s there’s no one to tell you what to do. So if you haven’t done the treatment before in Unit, [00:50:15] then I can imagine it’s a very stressful experience. You’re watching YouTube videos or something to [00:50:20] try and get the steps right for a root canal. It’s not. You don’t want that pressure as well when [00:50:25] you’re doing a root canal for the first time. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But you’re doing that all [00:50:30] the time right now.

Patric Saraby: Yeah. No.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You’re doing things for the first time every every week.

Patric Saraby: I remember [00:50:35] I had, um, a case where a patient came in. I think this was about two months into [00:50:40] university, and, um, she said, yeah, I want to do composite bonding [00:50:45] on my front teeth, and we need to reshape them everything. And she said, can you do that? And I thought, [00:50:50] I thought, yeah, I can do that. Yeah, I thought, I can do that. I did it [00:50:55] and it actually it came out really well. I took photos and everything. I was really happy. She was really happy. She actually called [00:51:00] Bupa the next day to to say that. Please don’t let him leave. Like, he did a really [00:51:05] good job. I’m really happy with the outcome. And I just remember whilst I was doing it and then [00:51:10] I finished, I gave her the mirror and I was just sad, like please say it’s good. And she, she [00:51:15] said oh I love it. And the nurse looked at me like, oh, you’re poor. Have [00:51:20] you done that? Like many times. And I was just thinking, it’s my first time. And I was like, yeah, I’ve done it before. [00:51:25] But there’s a lot of things like that. You’ve never done it before, and you just.

Payman Langroudi: Know for you [00:51:30] it’s going to be every every week, something new that you haven’t done before. And by [00:51:35] the way, it’s the only way to enjoy dentistry is to keep on improving. [00:51:40]

Patric Saraby: I feel like dentistry. There’s like a gradient or a graph where risk [00:51:45] and reward touches each other. So you do. There is a certain element of risk. I mean, obviously [00:51:50] I’m I’m not quite there yet, but when you’re placing implants or like a, [00:51:55] a treatment with a surgery involved, the risk is a lot higher. Obviously the reward is a lot [00:52:00] higher as well because you’re paid a lot more for it. But there’s definitely a gradient where you accept a certain [00:52:05] level of risk in the treatment. Um, and you get paid more for [00:52:10] it. But if you don’t take those risks, then you’re not going to get that reward in your career [00:52:15] as well if same for business, really, but there’s always an element of risk. Um, [00:52:20] and you just need to make sure. So when I, whenever I do, I go home. Um, [00:52:25] at least for the first three months of when I was working, I would just watch YouTube videos every [00:52:30] single day. Like, probably.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting.

Patric Saraby: 2 or 3 hours. Just YouTube videos. [00:52:35] Because I feel like a lot of dentistry is actually self-learning as well. I mean, you can do you have [00:52:40] to do what you have to do in university to get the title, but just because you’ve finished university [00:52:45] and you’ve started working, it doesn’t mean that you need to stop. You’re nowhere at [00:52:50] that point where you don’t know anything.

Payman Langroudi: Still literally nowhere.

Patric Saraby: So I’m and this is another thing. My [00:52:55] parents, obviously my mom’s a dentist. She didn’t have this when she was younger. There was no YouTube. There was no videos. [00:53:00] Now you can watch 20 videos on doing a crown prep on this specific tooth [00:53:05] that you’re going to do the next day. You can find little tricks on how to find the canals. [00:53:10] Doing a root canal that didn’t exist back then. Um, and I feel like obviously [00:53:15] our, my generation were very lucky because there’s so many [00:53:20] resources now online, the free resources as well, that you can just have a [00:53:25] look at um, and learn from. And when you go in the next day, you do feel a lot more confident [00:53:30] because you’ve watched this over and over and over again. So it’s, [00:53:35] uh, it makes you feel a lot more calm when you’re working as well, which is really important. [00:53:40] Um, and when you’re calm, the patient feels that [00:53:45] calm as well. 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Should we get to the darker part of the pod?

Patric Saraby: Yeah, absolutely. [00:53:50]

Payman Langroudi: We like to talk about mistakes.

Patric Saraby: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What mistakes have you made?

Patric Saraby: Um. [00:53:55] Wow. So, honestly, this is something that [00:54:00] they don’t tell you in university. When you make a mistake in [00:54:05] dentistry, it ruins your whole week. You go home and you think about it over and over [00:54:10] and over and over again. So. So a mistake I’ve made once. [00:54:15] Which I haven’t done since, is that I did a crown prep and I was rushed [00:54:20] because you have different elements in the day. You’re your [00:54:25] minds everywhere. You have to do the treatment plan. You have to type up the notes. Didn’t take [00:54:30] a PA of the crown before. Now sometimes [00:54:35] you might get away with that. But the crown had a bit of an abscess and [00:54:40] I didn’t take the PA, so I did the crown on the tooth and the patient [00:54:45] comes back with pain. And I’m checking to see if the PA.

Payman Langroudi: Is how long. [00:54:50] How long after you fitted the crown or before you fitted?

Patric Saraby: No, no. The patient came back about a week [00:54:55] after I fitted the crown. I said, I’ve got I’ve got a pain.

Payman Langroudi: I fit day.

Patric Saraby: Right now a week, a week after fit that. [00:55:00] Yeah. Permanently cemented. Permanent cemented. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:55:05] then you took a pa.

Patric Saraby: I took a pa. Yeah. I’d see the abscess and I went, where’s where’s my pa [00:55:10] from before? And I’m looking for it. I can’t find it. I check every [00:55:15] resource for X-rays that we have on the computer. I couldn’t find a PA, and [00:55:20] I was thinking, oh, wow.

Payman Langroudi: So what happened?

Patric Saraby: Um, she had to have a root canal. So [00:55:25] the patient has the root canal, and I offered to redo the crown. Obviously 100% [00:55:30] free under a warranty. Redid the crown. Um, now it’s fine, [00:55:35] but the patient had to have the root canal. Um, fortunately, it was a very nice patient, [00:55:40] so I didn’t have a problem by. I could have had.

Payman Langroudi: It referred the root canal.

Patric Saraby: I referred the root canal. [00:55:45] The private patient. The private patient. So, yeah, I mean, it’s my mistake [00:55:50] on my behalf not taking the PA the first time, but I guess now I know [00:55:55] these things happen. Um, you just need to. You need to give yourself the time [00:56:00] to do all the steps right before you do a treatment. Yeah. Um, and. Yeah, no, it [00:56:05] obviously is a learning experience.

Payman Langroudi: You know, the learning point from that. Yeah, is [00:56:10] that, you know, the difference between you and your professor of restorative [00:56:15] dentistry. Yeah, of course there’s many things here. But honestly, [00:56:20] it comes down to doing the basics, right? Yeah. That [00:56:25] when when you refer something to someone who’s an expert, what that expert does [00:56:30] is not skip a single step, does every step exactly [00:56:35] how it’s supposed to be done. It’s not it’s not a magic thing, you know? But but [00:56:40] when you’re thrown in NHS level, you’re speeding up, you’re not sure what [00:56:45] you don’t know. And then sometimes, man, we forget things. Yeah, yeah. And and you, [00:56:50] you can’t be too hard on yourself for being a human. Yeah.

Patric Saraby: This the thing that it [00:56:55] does affect you. It does.

Payman Langroudi: It better. But it’s good that it affects you. If it didn’t affect you, [00:57:00] that would be a problem.

Patric Saraby: I was really sad for like, I for a few days, like I just go to work and [00:57:05] I don’t want to speak to anyone because I was just so angry about two days.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got I gave up dentistry [00:57:10] in 2012. Yeah. And I still sometimes think about this patient in 2008. [00:57:15] Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Who? Um. It was different. It wasn’t. Well, [00:57:20] she was unhappy. Yeah. But I was trying my very best for her. [00:57:25] And she wrote this letter saying he was being careless or something. You know, like some [00:57:30] something like that. Yeah. Still, I still think about it. I still sometimes think about it. Now imagine. [00:57:35] Yeah. You’re a dentist, too. [00:57:40] That patient is now guessing. Yeah. And you’ve started [00:57:45] to get questions around. Are you going to get erased from the register? [00:57:50] Yeah. And now you’re thinking my kid can’t go to that school anymore because I can’t pay [00:57:55] for that school anymore. And on top of that, you were doing your best. Yeah. Thousands [00:58:00] of our colleagues are in that situation. Yeah, I know, I know many. In that who’ve been through [00:58:05] that.

Patric Saraby: And that to me sounds like the worst stress [00:58:10] imaginable. Like this complaint from like GDC. Obviously you don’t know if they revoke your [00:58:15] license, you get struck off.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you’ve got some experience of it from your mum.

Patric Saraby: Yeah. No, my mum’s [00:58:20] told me all about it.

Payman Langroudi: Studying abroad. You don’t get this fear of God [00:58:25] put into you studying abroad.

Patric Saraby: They don’t even take proper notes. [00:58:30] Yeah, yeah. So this is this. This was amazing to me. So NHS, I come in and I’m, I’m, I’m doing [00:58:35] my notes and my mentor comes in and says, well what’s this? And and I’m [00:58:40] like, well it’s my notes. And he went, no, no, no, that’s not the notes.

Payman Langroudi: You need to write an essay.

Patric Saraby: You need a template first. [00:58:45] And I’m thinking, what what’s that for? They need a template so you can speed up. It [00:58:50] needs to be an essay of at least the whole page with all the bases covered. And [00:58:55] he’s explaining to me about NHS, GDC complaints and all all this and how [00:59:00] this, this is the biggest stress in dentistry. Um, and then I’ve [00:59:05] got friends in Spain who are writing their notes on a piece of paper. So? [00:59:10] So it’s a completely different thing over there than it.

Payman Langroudi: Changed [00:59:15] here recently. Well, not really not that recently, but when I was a dentist, thank God there wasn’t that. [00:59:20] Yeah, yeah.

Patric Saraby: Yeah. Well, this is the thing, though. The notes they lock after [00:59:25] 24 hours. Yeah. That’s right. So you don’t even if you’ve missed something you can’t change it. Yeah. [00:59:30] It looks like you’ve tried to cover something up if you try and change it.

Payman Langroudi: You know, notes are supposed to be contemporaneous [00:59:35] or whatever.

Patric Saraby: That’s cool. Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me about tell me about the experience with [00:59:40] Bupa. Did you did they kind of sponsor you back [00:59:45] or how?

Patric Saraby: So I actually I wanted to work NHS, [00:59:50] so my mum’s practice is private and I felt like I need NHS [00:59:55] to get experience, good experience before I start working private because [01:00:00] it’s someone coming straight out of uni, going straight into private. I mean, obviously it [01:00:05] can’t be done, but the level is nowhere near what private needs to be. Um, private needs [01:00:10] to be a level above NHS. So that’s why I said we need to start NHS for experience. So I actually [01:00:15] applied to my dentist and Bupa and I got a job offer at both. [01:00:20] Um, and so this was the fact.

Payman Langroudi: Intentionally [01:00:25] go for corporate.

Patric Saraby: Yes, I went intentionally because I thought a corporate is somewhere [01:00:30] where it’s quite organised. Um, there’s organisation from [01:00:35] above. They use good materials in corporates, uh, because they’re [01:00:40] backed by multi-million pound companies. So the composite, [01:00:45] the adhesive, all the materials that they use are pretty good materials. And [01:00:50] the dentists working there, I feel like it was quite easy to ask [01:00:55] them for to come and give me advice or help me with the case, because [01:01:00] they’re not running the practice. They’re associate dentists as well. And they obviously know [01:01:05] my situation that I’ve just come over. So it was um, it was [01:01:10] almost like, uh, I felt like there was less responsibility working in a corporate [01:01:15] than working in a private, um, or independent practice. Um, and that’s one [01:01:20] of the reasons that I like to do it. Another thing was that so corporates [01:01:25] have a really good golden hello, which is a [01:01:30] fee that the practice will give you for joining or relocating [01:01:35] to the town. So I had my [01:01:40] dentist and Bupa and what I decided was I’m just going to play them off each other and say, well, they’ve offered [01:01:45] me this and they’ve offered me that.

Patric Saraby: And Bupa gave me a really, really good offer that my dentist [01:01:50] wouldn’t match. Um, and I decided that But [01:01:55] you’re also going in the practice. I like the vibe a lot. Um, [01:02:00] so I decided Bupa was the one I wanted to do. Um, and actually, [01:02:05] I feel like Bupa is a very well-run company. Um, my dentist is probably [01:02:10] also a very well-run company. Um, I know other corporates, which I’m not [01:02:15] going to name, which aren’t necessarily I haven’t heard the best stories, but [01:02:20] Bupa, there’s a lot of potential for private, um, especially [01:02:25] in the area where I’m working in. And there’s also [01:02:30] this sense of like everything in the practice [01:02:35] was really modern. So they had scanners. Um, they had ops, stuff that in independent [01:02:40] practice you might not find because they cost a lot. So and independent dentists [01:02:45] might not necessarily be able to afford an OPG machine or a Eteria scanner [01:02:50] or stuff like that. So I came into the practice and I thought, I want to [01:02:55] learn dentistry with the newest technologies because I feel like in ten years [01:03:00] everyone will be using a scanner.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so what, you didn’t even look at independence at all?

Patric Saraby: Um, [01:03:05] well, my my mom’s practice is independent.

Payman Langroudi: Um, no. But someone else’s practice.

Patric Saraby: No, no, [01:03:10] I didn’t I didn’t even have a look at this. But I also think that the [01:03:15] independence most of them in my town have gone private.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Patric Saraby: That’s [01:03:20] a that’s a big thing because there is a real struggle to find NHS dentists. [01:03:25] Corporates are good at finding NHS dentists because they have a good [01:03:30] liaison team to find dentists from abroad, or that their reach is [01:03:35] a lot bigger than an independent. An independent practice will put an advert in indeed, and then [01:03:40] hope fingers crossed that someone’s gonna get in touch with them and they can set up an interview or whatever. [01:03:45] Corporates have recruiters and they themselves are actively searching for people. [01:03:50]

Payman Langroudi: So you were like looking to expose yourself to the NHS somewhat, [01:03:55] and yet have good equipment and good organisation and a basic [01:04:00] minimum standard that you knew you were going to get from a corporate. It’s interesting. I’ve never, never thought about it [01:04:05] like in those terms. I think that and Bupa, did they make promises to you about like [01:04:10] what your future was going to be like? What you know. Tell me some of the stories [01:04:15] about okay. Then then you started. Anything surprise you? Anything was better than you thought or worse [01:04:20] than you thought.

Patric Saraby: Um, honestly, people did tell me some things. So the [01:04:25] first thing was that, um, obviously they gave me a performance related bonus, [01:04:30] which is a gold golden hello, which, um, was, uh, it was a good deal. They [01:04:35] told me that the scanners or the like, they have all the scanners, [01:04:40] like the I hero, and all the nurses knew how to use them. Um, [01:04:45] I mean, not all of them knew how to use them, but, yeah, some of them did. So [01:04:50] it was. It was good. Um, they kind of told me that after [01:04:55] I get my NHS performer number as well, I can renegotiate my contract, which is something that [01:05:00] I thought was quite a good deal. Um, and they offered me a really good UDA rate, [01:05:05] which is also important because for a new grad, the rate [01:05:10] that they offered me, I don’t think I know anyone who got that. Um, and [01:05:15] I feel like because of this desperation to find an NHS dentist, they [01:05:20] were willing to pay that because there is no one in Bournemouth that’s really worth working [01:05:25] NHS apart from a few practices. Um, most dentists [01:05:30] obviously after a few years of working, maybe ten years, 15 [01:05:35] years, they feel like they’re good enough to go private and they don’t want to work with the NHS anymore. Um, [01:05:40] and Bupa made me feel very welcome as well. Uh, [01:05:45] they said we have lots of resources to do courses, which is another thing. You get a lot of [01:05:50] discounts if you work for a corporate to do a course to go up to London or Manchester, [01:05:55] let’s say you can do a course on anything corporate bonding, Invisalign, whatever you want to do. [01:06:00] Um, a corporate have the contacts for you to [01:06:05] go to the course, you get a discount, or you go with the Bupa team or whatever. [01:06:10] Um, and I feel like it’s an independent practice. Obviously you can do the same thing, [01:06:15] but maybe there’s not the structure or organisation in place that the corporate has for you [01:06:20] to be able to facilitate that.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the worst thing about working there?

Patric Saraby: The worst thing about [01:06:25] working there? Wow. Well, [01:06:30] I hope I didn’t get fired or anything, but, um, no, [01:06:35] it’s, um, I probably say the worst thing about working there. Sometimes [01:06:40] the in different rooms, they have different materials. So in one room they [01:06:45] have stuff for orthodontics. So I’ll be working with a patient. And sometimes there’s a nurse coming in [01:06:50] or a nurse going out. Um, which personally I, I’m not [01:06:55] too keen on. I suppose they have to do it because they need to get certain materials [01:07:00] out of the room. But I feel like when the patient is sat in the chair, nobody should enter the room [01:07:05] like it should just be dentist, nurse, patient. And then when the treatment is over, then you [01:07:10] can come into the room. But the worst thing is you come into the room.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know what does that [01:07:15] believe?

Patric Saraby: Because imagine you come into the room and you pick something up like a box or something, and I’m working with the patient, [01:07:20] and you drop the box and the patient jumps up or something. I’ve got a burr in his mouth. If the burr goes in [01:07:25] his tongue, the burr just goes like that. So it’s just going to collect the tongue tissue or.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:07:30] they literally get in your way.

Patric Saraby: No, no, they don’t literally I mean, they go around the side and [01:07:35] stuff, but there’s noise.

Payman Langroudi: There’s there’s a worry.

Patric Saraby: I just know if I was a patient, especially [01:07:40] if I’m a private patient and I’m paying however much for a filling or a [01:07:45] crown of stuff. I don’t want any external noise. Um, I just want the dentist [01:07:50] to be focusing on what he’s doing. I mean, it’s not a massive problem, but it’s something that grinds my [01:07:55] gear sometimes. And so someone will walk in and I won’t even look up to, like, acknowledge [01:08:00] them. I’ll just continue doing my work. And I just thinking, like, go outside right now, but it’s not like a [01:08:05] rude thing. It’s just I feel like.

Payman Langroudi: Nah, it is a good thing that, you know, you know what? We [01:08:10] end up as dentists doing this sort of thing. Yeah. Big mistake, big mistake. [01:08:15] The best thing you can do as a dentist in that moment is look up and smile.

Patric Saraby: Yeah. Okay. [01:08:20]

Payman Langroudi: Honestly, I see that some of the messages we send out with our body language [01:08:25] here. Yeah. Yeah. And then. And then the net effect of that. Yeah. Is that that [01:08:30] nurse then goes out to the reception and says he’s in a good mood or something. Yeah. Some crap [01:08:35] like that. Yeah. And you know. Okay. It pisses you off because people walk into. [01:08:40] I mean, I thought you were going to say something much more serious. Much more serious than that. Yeah, but I had [01:08:45] the CEO of Bupa sitting. Yeah. Sitting where you’re sitting. And, you know, their whole [01:08:50] thing is about making the associate happy. Yeah. You know.

Patric Saraby: They’re good. [01:08:55]

Payman Langroudi: At that. They’re really focussed that my wife works at Bupa. Yeah. Um, sometimes [01:09:00] in corporates decision making. Slow.

Patric Saraby: Yeah. No, I feel [01:09:05] like I feel like that. Definitely. And there’s a lot of, um.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, you’re kind of the kind of guy who knows what [01:09:10] he wants. Let’s imagine you decide you want something to get approval [01:09:15] up the chain. Sometimes that can take time.

Patric Saraby: Yeah, I do write emails quite a lot. Do you? Yeah. [01:09:20] There’s. Sometimes I just don’t get a reply. But yeah, I do. I do write a lot of emails.

Payman Langroudi: Did you go to that [01:09:25] event they had in Wales?

Patric Saraby: Um, so so I started working like, um, two months before that event. [01:09:30] So not yet, but I’m. I’m hoping I get invited next year. Um, and I get [01:09:35] nominated for one of the categories because I’ve been working towards that.

Payman Langroudi: Um, towards an award.

Patric Saraby: I [01:09:40] tried to get patients to leave, like, reviews. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. No, I’m [01:09:45] really big on that. If patients leave reviews, there’s there’s like a written [01:09:50] statement that you’ve done good work. And the more of those you have when [01:09:55] a person goes to book online.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a win for everyone.

Patric Saraby: Yeah. Yeah, it’s a win for Bupa is a win [01:10:00] for me. Because if someone goes to work with Bupa, they have a platform called Dental, which, um, that’s used [01:10:05] in all Poopers. So with Dental, you can book from the website. If [01:10:10] you go on Google and you type in like, like a restaurant, if you’re going to a restaurant, you’re going to look at [01:10:15] how the reviews are, what foods, what plates might be nice, what people [01:10:20] like to eat there. So with the review, if they put my name in it and [01:10:25] people see that, hang on, there’s like 20, 30, 40 reviews on this guy. He [01:10:30] he must know what he’s doing.

Payman Langroudi: Walk me through the process. What do you say? Literally. Do you ask everyone? [01:10:35]

Patric Saraby: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: Not everybody. The ones who are very happy.

Patric Saraby: It’s. It’s the ones who are very happy are when I feel like [01:10:40] I’ve done a quite a nice treatment. I took a before and after photo. I show the patient the photo, [01:10:45] and I see that they’re as happy as I am about how the treatment has gone. [01:10:50] And then I say, because there’s like a barcode on the door of my practice [01:10:55] room, and I say, if, if it if it doesn’t bother you, then you could just scan that and leave me [01:11:00] a review. And yeah, no, if they are as happy as I am about the treatment [01:11:05] then they’ll do that. So yeah, I probably have about 40 or 50 reviews. I used to do [01:11:10] it more. Now I do it less than I used to just because like I’m [01:11:15] more focussed on the work, um, aspect, but it is something [01:11:20] that is very conscious and I think in the future Google reviews [01:11:25] will be a big thing.

Payman Langroudi: The big thing.

Patric Saraby: Right now, yeah, they’re a big thing right now. But like, like [01:11:30] a month after I started doing all these reviews and stuff, I sent out an email saying that we [01:11:35] have a competition between all the practices and the southwest region for Google reviews. So [01:11:40] like we were already in the lead because I was doing it inadvertently [01:11:45] because I thought it’s a great thing to do.

Payman Langroudi: Also, is that the prize you’re going for? Oh [01:11:50] yes.

Patric Saraby: It was that.

Payman Langroudi: Was the number one review.

Patric Saraby: You get like pizzas or something. But, [01:11:55] um, no, no, it’s it’s.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the which prize are you going for? The one you said. Oh, I’m working towards a [01:12:00] prize.

Patric Saraby: I’d like to be like a, like a, like, best young dentist in [01:12:05] Bupa or something like that. That’s definitely something that I think about. Yeah, I know it’s something. I think about it. I [01:12:10] feel like it’s important to have these little things in your head. When I was at university, I [01:12:15] had this in my head since day one. I don’t know why, I just thought I wanted to do graduation [01:12:20] speech. I just had that. I don’t I’m not sure why. Um, but [01:12:25] I just kept saying it to myself, like every week, like I’m going to do it, I’m going to do it. And [01:12:30] then we got around to fifth year and they voted for me to do it. [01:12:35] So it happened. And that’s that’s the real thing. I really believe that if you if you talk [01:12:40] yourself into something like manifest. Yeah, exactly. Manifestation. Like I’m going to do this. You [01:12:45] can’t do it.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t.

Patric Saraby: Do anything. If you tell yourself enough that you’re going to do it. You [01:12:50] have to stay true to your goal, so you have to.

Payman Langroudi: Work.

Patric Saraby: At it. Work [01:12:55] out how the pathway works. I realised that if I become the delegate of the year [01:13:00] at uni, then it would be a lot easier for me to gain people’s trust. And then in fifth year they would vote for [01:13:05] me to remain delegate, uh, and then become the guy who [01:13:10] gives the graduation speech. So in fourth year, I wasn’t the delegate. Actually, they voted for someone [01:13:15] else. That’s just very disappointing. But then in fifth year, they voted for me after this.

Payman Langroudi: Why was it important [01:13:20] to you to give the graduation speech?

Patric Saraby: See this? This this is, um. Honestly. [01:13:25] And I’ve watched one of your other podcasts, and I really [01:13:30] resonated with it. Resonated with me as, um, I feel like my parents gave [01:13:35] me this thing called immigrant mentality. Yeah. Where you just have to strive like [01:13:40] you have this mentality that I’m going to take over. And I feel like a lot of immigrants [01:13:45] in the UK have that as well. And I feel like watching my parents grow two businesses when [01:13:50] I was younger.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Patric Saraby: Inadvertently, somehow that passed on to me. So I’m in this country, [01:13:55] in Spain with no family. Um, obviously my friends and [01:14:00] my girlfriend and stuff, but I’m there like, I want to take over at uni. I want to [01:14:05] be the guy that the professors are looking at at the end of the year giving the speech. I want to be the guy giving [01:14:10] the speech to my classmates. And another thing was, I didn’t have my parents for five [01:14:15] years and my parents and my grandparents, which is very important to me, are coming [01:14:20] for this one day, okay, to sit in the audience and watch. Okay, I [01:14:25] want them to see me up there.

Payman Langroudi: Because graduation, when they give you your [01:14:30] robes and.

Patric Saraby: All of that.

Payman Langroudi: They give you the robes. One guy talks two guys.

Patric Saraby: So there’s two. There’s [01:14:35] the delegate and there’s the sub delegate. But I was delegate, so I was up [01:14:40] there and I gave the first speech.

Payman Langroudi: So you made them really proud.

Patric Saraby: I literally had like, um, so [01:14:45] people want us, but we have dance from where I’m from in Iran. Um, Bandari. And I [01:14:50] literally had my grandma, like, standing up in front of the crowd, just going crazy with her [01:14:55] hands, just taking in the moment. I remember just looking down and I thought, [01:15:00] you. You guys deserve this because I like people don’t know. But Iranians went [01:15:05] through very hard situations to get to Europe. They [01:15:10] lost a lot. Um, they had they had to suffer to get [01:15:15] to the places they’re at. Um, especially a lot of the friends. [01:15:20] My parents have, a lot of the family we have. It was difficult to [01:15:25] start with nothing and then build it all up from there. Um, and I just remember looking [01:15:30] at them and thinking, you guys deserve this. Like this. This one’s for you. And that’s that’s something [01:15:35] that drove me, like, I just thought, like, my parents have supported me through uni. And [01:15:40] if I can do anything, just give something back. I know that this speech [01:15:45] would really make them happy. And I genuinely think, like my grandparents [01:15:50] will remember that forever. Just that moment of.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, for sure.

Patric Saraby: Yeah for sure.

Payman Langroudi: For [01:15:55] sure.

Patric Saraby: Like it was. It’s something that will stay with me forever as well, and [01:16:00] that’s why I manifested it every day. I just remember thinking like, my grandad, he’s going to be really happy when he sees me [01:16:05] up there. And yeah, it’s small things like that though. They can push you to [01:16:10] do a lot.

Payman Langroudi: So what are you manifesting right now?

Patric Saraby: Oh, so right [01:16:15] now it’s, um, I mean, it’s it’s we’re we’re we’re a long, long [01:16:20] way away. I what I do is I have little things like on [01:16:25] the road. So like the super thing that award I subconsciously I think about it sometimes. [01:16:30] Um, but the, the ultimate goal would be I don’t [01:16:35] want to I would want to be a multi practice owner, but not too not too big, not too big. Because I [01:16:40] think the bigger the chain of practice is, the more difficult it is to to run it well. [01:16:45] Yeah. But, um, if you could have a practice in different [01:16:50] cities, maybe in three different cities, um, but you need a brand, you need a [01:16:55] marketing team and everything, but it’s something like that. I’m not sure about specialising. I used to think [01:17:00] I’m 100% going to specialise. I think I’ll do implants and prosthodontics or something like that at [01:17:05] the moment, but I was really set on specialising. But I don’t want to limit everything [01:17:10] to working in one speciality all the time. I mean, I’m [01:17:15] sure because I like the fact that I have very [01:17:20] generalist. Yeah, I like the fact that I do different things all the.

Payman Langroudi: Time, [01:17:25] man. People come up to me your age all the time. Say, what do you think I should do? Yeah, [01:17:30] yeah. And then some of that, I say, well, what are you thinking about? And some guy might say, [01:17:35] I want to be an endodontic. Yeah. And I said, do it. Yeah. Or another guy [01:17:40] might say I want to own 100 practices. I do it and then. But which one? Which [01:17:45] one of these should I do? Yeah. Yeah. You should do any of them. Yeah.

Patric Saraby: Any other [01:17:50] way. That’s a good way to.

Payman Langroudi: Think about any and all of them. But when I say any of them, my point is this. [01:17:55] You know that whether you can see yourself being a periodontist or [01:18:00] an implant allergist or an endodontics, all [01:18:05] of those three things will set your heart on fire. Was that [01:18:10] the phrase use all of those. All of those three things will set your heart on fire. If [01:18:15] you’re really good at them. Yeah. The reason that orthodontist was enjoying his job so [01:18:20] much was because he was so good at it. Yeah. Yeah, but being good at it is much more important. [01:18:25] That’s true than than the subject itself. Yeah. I [01:18:30] agree with you that like owning a hundred practice is very different to being in endodontics. [01:18:35] That different those are different things. Yeah. But in general, the sooner you decide, [01:18:40] the better. So you can start aiming in that direction sooner. [01:18:45]

Patric Saraby: Yeah. That’s true. You know that’s.

Payman Langroudi: True. So but but why do you think multiplex is just one up your [01:18:50] mum.

Patric Saraby: Because she has one practice. No it’s not, it’s not about that.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:18:55] but but it’s an interesting question. Yeah. Why three. Why not 300. You know what I mean. Like so why why why not one? [01:19:00] Because one is beautiful.

Patric Saraby: I feel like one is amazing.

Payman Langroudi: But one is a beautiful. [01:19:05]

Patric Saraby: Thing. One. One is beautiful because you focus all your attention on that one. You know, the patients in the practice, [01:19:10] they know you as well. But I feel like we really have one practice in our family. [01:19:15] My girlfriend’s parents are also both dentists and they practice like there’s already [01:19:20] in Barcelona. Yeah. So there’s foundations to build on there. Yeah. Um, and imagine [01:19:25] if in 30 years I can work in [01:19:30] Barcelona when it’s the winter here, when it’s cold, and then when it’s the summer here, [01:19:35] I come back and I work here. Yeah. I just need a GDC number, and I need a, uh, [01:19:40] to be. Obviously.

Payman Langroudi: Although you’re in the wrong profession for that.

Patric Saraby: Yeah. No. That’s true.

Payman Langroudi: If [01:19:45] that was your.

Patric Saraby: Goal, I really. I realised that too late, though. Yeah, yeah, I realised that.

Payman Langroudi: Some people pull that off, [01:19:50] man. But if that was your goal, you’ve gone in the wrong profession.

Patric Saraby: Yeah. No, I realised that way too late. But it’s. [01:19:55] It’s not impossible. It’s not impossible. So also something that I [01:20:00] would love to do is teach. I think I’ve just, I just like, [01:20:05] um, speaking, um, with people interacting.

Payman Langroudi: Like being on the stage, [01:20:10] like you said.

Patric Saraby: It’s not. It’s not just that. It’s it’s it’s like, um, I, I [01:20:15] love being sat in the chair and working, But I feel like there’s also more to that. [01:20:20] Like if you if you can teach people, it’s a it’s a nice thing for you and it’s a nice thing to them. [01:20:25] And it’s very social as well because you meet a lot of like minded people.

Payman Langroudi: Teaching is fun. Fun.

Patric Saraby: It’s [01:20:30] like a vocation, actually. If you’re if you’re really good at what you do, then it’s a vocation because you’re [01:20:35] just pulling up cases that you’ve done or experiences that you’ve had, and you’re giving them to [01:20:40] other people who are obviously less experienced. And I feel like it’s [01:20:45] it’s a fun way, social way as well. Um, to to work. [01:20:50]

Payman Langroudi: Did you have fun? There’s no doubt about that. Yeah. Um, and it’s you’re right. In [01:20:55] so much as dentistry. Four walls.

Patric Saraby: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: A bit lonely in that sense. [01:21:00] So it’s nice to get out. Um, at the same time, it’s. [01:21:05] I mean, teaching is within the profession in so much [01:21:10] as, you know, like that, your your mentor shows you how to do something. You [01:21:15] ask someone on Instagram, how did you do that? Like, we’re constantly all of us [01:21:20] teaching each other continuously. Yeah. You know, like, as a profession, you [01:21:25] end up being like that. You know, there was a apprentice kind of situation before. [01:21:30] Um, your generation all want to teach all of them. I haven’t spoken to a [01:21:35] single one who says I don’t want to teach. Um, and [01:21:40] that needs to be thought about a little bit, you know, because I don’t know.

Patric Saraby: Yeah. [01:21:45] Not everyone can teach.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone have to.

Patric Saraby: Teach. Yeah. No, everyone doesn’t have to teach. But [01:21:50] I like what you’ve just said about my mentor, because I didn’t even think about that. You [01:21:55] could just teach by mentoring someone who’s come from a different country.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Impacts the funny [01:22:00] thing. Yeah. Like, you know, like this, that moment on the stage when your [01:22:05] grandparents and all that and, you know, that’s a high impact moment. Yeah. But it [01:22:10] impacts the funny thing. When I was your age, I used to think about it in a linear way. I think I want [01:22:15] to impact the maximum number of people. Maximum number of humans. And then my mentor said [01:22:20] to me, much more interested in impacting a few humans very deeply [01:22:25] than lots of humans. Very little.

Patric Saraby: Superficially.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And [01:22:30] he was he was that guy. He was very interested in that, you know. And [01:22:35] so the way that you think about what dent you’re going to [01:22:40] put into the world.

Patric Saraby: I think the quality of the dent is probably better the smaller the sample [01:22:45] size.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s an interesting thing. I’ve always thought like like from a parent’s [01:22:50] perspective, you’re maybe a bit older than my kids, right? But from a parent’s perspective, [01:22:55] yeah, I would if I could do anything for my kids, it would be to have them be confident. [01:23:00] Yeah, yeah. And that’s a difficult one. Yeah. Because you get arrogance and confidence [01:23:05] that they can have.

Patric Saraby: Like in Persian we have the saying like a [01:23:10] tree. The more apples it has the lower its headers.

Payman Langroudi: Right. Right. So [01:23:15] so I mean by the way common sense is very different but in the same ballpark. Um, [01:23:20] I want them to be kind. Yeah, definitely. And I want them to [01:23:25] want to make a dent in the world. Change the world a little bit. Um, [01:23:30] my own personal thing. Listening to you. Yeah. You [01:23:35] do also want to do significant things. You want to help?

Patric Saraby: Yeah. Of course. That’s one [01:23:40] of the. If you don’t if you don’t want to help in your in dentistry or in the wrong profession, I [01:23:45] think.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Patric Saraby: Agreed. Yeah I agree it’s not. It’s not. So some people want [01:23:50] to be dentists because of financial drive and stuff like that, that I feel like that’s completely the [01:23:55] wrong way to go about it. And that’s how you get in trouble as well.

Payman Langroudi: Well, that said, [01:24:00] you’re very open about your financial motivation as well though. Yeah. Like you’re not making any excuses, but you’re like [01:24:05] the primary motivation.

Patric Saraby: When I’m working I always think. Don’t get greedy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:24:10]

Patric Saraby: That’s because if you get greedy, then you start playing outside the lines [01:24:15] or doing something shady.

Payman Langroudi: At your stage. At your stage, just remember that the better [01:24:20] you do, the more money will come by itself. Yeah, that’s.

Patric Saraby: That’s [01:24:25] exactly how I think. But I so I know of dentists who I [01:24:30] don’t want to say that they’re, I don’t want to talk about their work, but necessarily sometimes [01:24:35] they, they do what’s best for them, not for the patient in terms of treatment planning. Um, [01:24:40] which is it’s a shame. And I mean, I there’s people like this in every profession, [01:24:45] but you shouldn’t be a dentist if you’re financially motivated. [01:24:50] And to that extent you should be financially motivated. I’m not saying don’t be financially financially motivated, [01:24:55] but you need to be financially motivated to an extent where you do everything by the book and in the best interests [01:25:00] of the patient, always.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely.

Patric Saraby: Um, and that’s [01:25:05] the main thing that I always think, like even even I mean, I’m, I’m in my first year. So [01:25:10] when I said, don’t get greedy, I mean, take your time. Yeah. And [01:25:15] really analyse all the situation. Don’t straight [01:25:20] away just think. Yeah. We’ve got to do a crown on that tooth. What if the patient has period. You need to check if the patient has perio [01:25:25] stabilise the period. There’s so many steps to go through. If you just go straight up [01:25:30] and say let’s do the most expensive treatment that later down the line, you’re going to get a complaint and everything’s [01:25:35] going to become a lot more stressful. So don’t get greedy means don’t be in too [01:25:40] much of a rush to start coming back home with insane [01:25:45] numbers, because there’s there is no real rush as long as you’re doing everything in the right order. [01:25:50] Like you said earlier about a specialist, the specialist does every single step, right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Patric Saraby: So [01:25:55] if if you can do that, even on a general dentist scale, for sure, then you’re [01:26:00] going to be a very good general dentist for sure. So sure, that’s the main thing, but don’t [01:26:05] get greedy. It’s almost like being humble at the same time. Yeah. Which is very important. [01:26:10] Um, and don’t get too ahead of yourself as well. Don’t start. Like, for example, [01:26:15] I’ve been working for a year, and I still don’t do upper sevens as [01:26:20] I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Do as an.

Patric Saraby: End. I don’t do them. I’ll be honest. And I’m just going to say I don’t do [01:26:25] them. Why do I not do them? Because I just don’t feel like I’m [01:26:30] at that level yet where I can go for those sort of teeth. Hopefully [01:26:35] one day I’m going to be there and I feel confident doing it, but I [01:26:40] can’t do it. Or not. Yeah or not. And it’s okay if not, like it’s not the end of it. That’s what specialists [01:26:45] are for as well. But um, yeah, no I won’t do them [01:26:50] because I, I feel like something could go wrong. And instead of accepting a patient’s money, I’ll just [01:26:55] be like, it’s better if I send you to someone else. Um, even if you really want me [01:27:00] to do it, I can’t.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s end up with our [01:27:05] quick fires.

Patric Saraby: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: What do you remember? Is your favourite lecture you’ve ever been to?

Patric Saraby: My favourite [01:27:10] lecture was actually I went to a Perrier lecture, so I absolutely [01:27:15] loved Perrier at university in Barcelona. It was the [01:27:20] most beautiful subjects of dentistry for me because Perrier is.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:27:25] do you like about it?

Patric Saraby: Perrier is pure communication with a patient, educating [01:27:30] a patient because, okay, the patient comes in, you do the deep root scaling, [01:27:35] whatever steps you need to do for oral hygiene. But after that it’s how [01:27:40] well you’ve touched the patient. Motivate them motivated the patient [01:27:45] to maintain their health. And sometimes a patient will come back and you’ll you’ll [01:27:50] see that you’ve not managed to break through. And it might be hopeless, and it might make [01:27:55] you sad because you spend a lot of time on the case and you really tried to to get them to get [01:28:00] into the right habits. But I feel like if you succeed in [01:28:05] Perrier, it’s really rewarding because you have someone whose teeth might be at the point [01:28:10] of falling out. And then over time, you manage to recuperate that and you build [01:28:15] a real good relationship with that patient as well. Um, which it’s probably [01:28:20] easier to do than in other branches of dentistry. Um, I also had a really [01:28:25] good professor, so he was called Doctor Rosengart, and he’s [01:28:30] one of the best periodontist in Europe, I think. And he came into the lecture, and [01:28:35] so I didn’t speak great Spanish in third year.

Patric Saraby: And he started doing the lecture in English. And [01:28:40] so I used to go to lectures when I didn’t speak Spanish. And I’d sit there, I’d be like, [01:28:45] oh, here we go again. Just they’re going to be speaking super fast [01:28:50] and like they’re passionate. So they get caught up, they start speaking fast or slow or fast slow. It’s [01:28:55] really hard to keep up. And he starts speaking in English. And one of the Spanish kids said, um, Well, [01:29:00] why are we not doing this lecture in Spanish? And he went, well, it’s, uh, International University. [01:29:05] I could do Portuguese if you like. I just started laughing and immediately I just sat forward like [01:29:10] he’s got charisma. And he started explaining Perrier, and I just. I [01:29:15] loved it, not only the fact that I could understand it, but the way he was explaining it. Um, and it [01:29:20] was the first lecture where I watched the lecture and I thought I’d, [01:29:25] I’d love to be in his position like a professor teaching kids in different languages, [01:29:30] uh, with such confidence as well.

Payman Langroudi: Do you liked him more than the particular [01:29:35] lecture he was giving was his aura. He was giving.

Patric Saraby: His aura was. It was [01:29:40] definitely special. But also he was so composed in another language. [01:29:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Patric Saraby: Yeah. Like and that, that that’s really something.

Payman Langroudi: Those top guys. English. They have to. Yeah. Yeah. [01:29:50] Because he’s getting all over the world. Yeah. Yeah. Lecturing right.

Patric Saraby: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: It is. It is always interesting to see that when, [01:29:55] when a top guy comes along from Brazil or whatever. And his English is so amazing. [01:30:00] And you think that’s a that’s not his first language?

Patric Saraby: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: No, absolutely it is. It is nice to see that you agree. [01:30:05]

Patric Saraby: And it’s it’s just it’s charisma. Like if you if you, if you can captivate [01:30:10] the audience that you’re speaking to, some people can some people can’t. But if you [01:30:15] can do it, then you get everyone suddenly leaning forward in the seat, holding [01:30:20] on to every word. Um, and it takes a special kind of teacher, [01:30:25] let’s say, to do that.

Payman Langroudi: You’re fascinated by that, huh? But the moment of touching the audience. [01:30:30]

Patric Saraby: Yeah. No, I think it’s interesting. I think it’s important, um, not only an audience, [01:30:35] the patient as well. Yeah, like your case. Acceptance. [01:30:40] It’s only going to be really high if you can capture the patient’s attention. [01:30:45] Um, if if you’re giving a monotonous explanation, they’re [01:30:50] not going to want to continue the treatment or maybe even do a bit more [01:30:55] on top of the treatment plan that you’ve suggested. Like if you’re doing composite [01:31:00] fillings for a patient, um, you’ve restore all the teeth that have decay. [01:31:05] And then the patient says, well, I’ve seen the teeth that you’ve done. How about we’ve changed my [01:31:10] old amalgam fillings out? But that means that you’ve done a good job of explaining, of showing [01:31:15] the patient the difference before and after, um, and that they [01:31:20] trust you as well. So they’re literally saying, take my money and change these amalgam fillings. [01:31:25] Um, so it’s not only on, um, the scale of an audience, [01:31:30] this can be just one person as well, but you have to be [01:31:35] engaging, uh, charismatic and confident, like you said about [01:31:40] your kids, the confidence. That’s that’s a real big thing in life. Because [01:31:45] you can strive to be good at anything if you have confidence. True. Another [01:31:50] thing about languages is that some people might not want to learn a new language because [01:31:55] they’re not confident about saying a word wrong or getting corrected in front of her. I’m like, yeah, [01:32:00] well, it’s a real thing.

Payman Langroudi: I could almost speak French, but I never do. Yeah.

Patric Saraby: Well, [01:32:05] that’s the thing, because some people think that I’m gonna go and speak and they’re [01:32:10] going to correct me, and I’m going to look like a fool in front of everyone. But my experience actually in Spain [01:32:15] was that if I did try, people.

Payman Langroudi: Love it.

Patric Saraby: When it would correct me, but they would love.

Payman Langroudi: It. People in Spain love it when you [01:32:20] try to speak Spanish. Yeah, they really do. I think more than the next country, you know, like for some [01:32:25] reason they just love it.

Patric Saraby: It’s fair play. Like you’re just trying. So. And [01:32:30] it’s the same thing. If they spoke English, I would never try and embarrass them or anything. Like if [01:32:35] they made a mistake and we’re in private, then I just. I try and help them with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If we’re in a crowd, I wouldn’t do [01:32:40] that. But I think like he’s he’s speaking English right now and like, fair play to you. Yeah. So if [01:32:45] you, if you’re outside of your comfort box then I think it’s, it’s very rude if someone [01:32:50] tries to knock you down off your perch. So Uh, sure. Yeah. No, I do love that. [01:32:55]

Payman Langroudi: So out of the four languages, which, how would you rate them? As far as not [01:33:00] not like how good you are is English. Are you best at English?

Patric Saraby: I’m better. [01:33:05] Yeah. Yeah. By far. English is the.

Payman Langroudi: Best. English number.

Patric Saraby: One. Do you know, I feel [01:33:10] like I’m good at Farsi, but I can’t read or write.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I read or [01:33:15] write like a six year old.

Patric Saraby: Can’t read. All right, I’ll be honest.

Payman Langroudi: I got one so soon? I think number two.

Patric Saraby: Spanish might [01:33:20] be two. And my Spanish friends are going to laugh at.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Patric Saraby: Because they’re gonna be like, this guy doesn’t [01:33:25] have a clue, but.

Payman Langroudi: We’re gonna throw Catalan in as well. Yeah.

Patric Saraby: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: No Swedish [01:33:30] or Farsi.

Patric Saraby: After, I think Farsi after Farsi speaking. Why is it [01:33:35] second? But overall, because of the reading, I’m gonna have to put it third. Yeah, Swedish [01:33:40] would be fourth and Catalan fifth. Catalan is fifth by, but Swedish [01:33:45] as well because I left when I was six. So I also have the vocabulary of a six [01:33:50] year old like, um, but it’s enough to get around. Like I went to Sweden to do my [01:33:55] passport, uh, last year, and I was able to navigate myself with the Swedish of a six year [01:34:00] old. So it’s okay. And there’s not that many Swedish people in the world. So that’s [01:34:05] it’s not the end of the world. But, um. Yeah. No, my parents are going to be surprised by that [01:34:10] ranking. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Final questions then. Fantasy [01:34:15] dinner party. Oh. Three guests.

Patric Saraby: Wow.

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive? [01:34:20]

Patric Saraby: Dead or alive.

Payman Langroudi: Who would you have?

Patric Saraby: So the first one might [01:34:25] surprise you, but I’m actually going to go for Freddie Mercury. I think Freddie [01:34:30] Mercury is just an enigma. I loved him when I was younger. Well, he was dead, but [01:34:35] I’d watch Freddie Mercury on YouTube. I’d listen to his music. And then I watched [01:34:40] that, uh, the film that came out, Bohemian Rhapsody. And I was actually crying in the film because [01:34:45] it just came across as the most confident And guy ever.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:34:50] actor played it very well.

Patric Saraby: He played.

[TRANSITION]: Amazing, but.

Patric Saraby: He didn’t care what [01:34:55] anyone thought. And I think that’s quite important. Not in the sense of like, [01:35:00] do whatever you want. Don’t care what anyone thinks, but you should just be you. Mhm. And [01:35:05] if people accept you as you then they accept you as you. And if they don’t then don’t worry about [01:35:10] it. Like that’s not in your hands. Don’t worry about it. And Freddie [01:35:15] Mercury was just this guy. Like obviously he.

Payman Langroudi: Was different than.

[TRANSITION]: Homosexual. [01:35:20] He just didn’t care.

Patric Saraby: He’s different in that time as well. Came out such a good singer. [01:35:25] And you’ve got. He makes this music that people [01:35:30] tell him. Don’t make that music. It’s not going to work. Yeah, yeah. Bohemian Rhapsody, for example. They told him [01:35:35] never going to work. No one’s going to listen to seven minutes on the radio. Yeah. And he puts [01:35:40] out all this music and everyone’s loving it just because he. He backed [01:35:45] himself. He had that confidence to say that I know better than that. These guys who are the experts [01:35:50] from geniuses?

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you know, one of them.

Patric Saraby: 1 in.

[TRANSITION]: 1,000,000.

Payman Langroudi: That’s your that’s your [01:35:55] first.

Patric Saraby: That’s why he gets invited to the dinner.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I like that.

Patric Saraby: Um, the [01:36:00] second, uh, people, I mean, might not know [01:36:05] this, but I’d actually invite the last Shah of Iran.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, yeah.

Patric Saraby: I think the last Shah of Iran [01:36:10] was very educated, a very classy person, [01:36:15] and a very well thought person. He wouldn’t speak without thinking first. I don’t know him, but I’ve seen [01:36:20] interviews of him speaking English like it was his first language. I’ve seen him speaking French [01:36:25] like it was his first language. Um, every time I’ve seen [01:36:30] anything of him, it’s just he has this real class.

Payman Langroudi: You know, the interesting [01:36:35] thing that, you know, you see it on Instagram or something. But back then, there [01:36:40] wasn’t. Right. I showed my parents and they said, oh, we’ve never seen, like, [01:36:45] all of this stuff? Yeah, because back then. Either you caught it on the TV if it was [01:36:50] on or you didn’t, and that was that.

Patric Saraby: Yeah. No. Absolutely, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: But that’s not the first [01:36:55] time he’s been invited. Um, and the third guess.

Patric Saraby: The third. See, [01:37:00] I’m not actually going to go for a celebrity. I’m going to go for my grandma, who passed away [01:37:05] when I was in fourth year.

Payman Langroudi: Of dental.

Patric Saraby: School. Yeah, because, um, my grandma really wanted to be [01:37:10] a doctor. Then she wasn’t able to because certain things happened in Iran. Um, [01:37:15] and I just remember telling her when I was younger, like, I’m going to do it and I’m going to I [01:37:20] this is another thing. I was like, I’m going to do the graduation speech and you’re going to be there. Oh, so she passed away, [01:37:25] and, uh, I was actually in the middle of exams, so I couldn’t really I couldn’t really take it [01:37:30] in properly. I just remember I was really upset, but I couldn’t take it in. But then I [01:37:35] feel like when the time passed, I just had this real fire inside. Like, it was just. [01:37:40] I was real angry and that that actually helped me through [01:37:45] that period. That really helped me because everything I did, I thought, well, I’m doing it [01:37:50] and she’s watching and I’m going to fulfil the dream like no prior. There was no questions asked. So [01:37:55] when I went into that final year of uni, it was just a matter of getting my head down and I’m gonna absolutely [01:38:00] tear through this year. Um, and she will be there that day. She’ll be watching. And [01:38:05] I mentioned her in the graduation speech, and I said, it’s not just my grandma.

Patric Saraby: Five [01:38:10] years is a long period of time. And there was a lot of my companions [01:38:15] and, uh, colleagues who had also lost people. So I said, this is this [01:38:20] is for all of them as well. All the people that you’ve obviously lost over this five years, especially [01:38:25] the ones that we moved away from our countries to a different country. So we weren’t able to see our families. [01:38:30] I said, well, don’t worry, because they’re watching. And it’s [01:38:35] important to, to to remember that and remember them on a big day like [01:38:40] that for there for all the families involved. Um, but yeah. No, that’s, [01:38:45] uh, if that’s another thing, like, one of the most important things [01:38:50] to always remember is kindness. And that’s, that’s one [01:38:55] thing I wanted people to feel after I finished my speech. Um, [01:39:00] and, uh, I felt like that moment where I included everyone’s families, [01:39:05] people quite enjoyed that. And I enjoyed it myself as well, actually. Um, but, [01:39:10] yeah. No. Like the family. Not not just in Spain, in Iran and [01:39:15] all sort of Mediterranean countries is so important. Um, and I was happy to [01:39:20] be able to give that send-off to my grandma and also to their families who [01:39:25] they’d lost.

Payman Langroudi: Was that your mum’s mum or your.

Patric Saraby: It’s my dad’s mum. Yeah. [01:39:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. So mum’s parents were the ones who were.

Patric Saraby: Yeah. My mum’s parents were there. Uh, and uh, they had [01:39:35] a really good time. That’s beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. But I was thinking of obviously my other grandma [01:39:40] as well, and she would have loved it too. But that’s life, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: So [01:39:45] that’s beautiful man. I say we end it on that.

Patric Saraby: Yeah, well, it was an absolute pleasure. Thank you for. [01:39:50]

Payman Langroudi: Having me so much, man. Thanks for coming.

Patric Saraby: All the way. I’ve really enjoyed myself here. Thank you.

[VOICE]: This [01:39:55] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go [01:40:00] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:40:05] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:40:10] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:40:15] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what [01:40:20] we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [01:40:25]

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [01:40:30] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so so much for [01:40:35] listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast comes to you from enlighten. Enlighten, an advanced teeth whitening system [00:00:05] that guarantees results on every single patient. We’ve treated hundreds of thousands of patients [00:00:10] now and have a really clear understanding of what it takes to get every patient to that delighted [00:00:15] state that we want to get to. If you want to understand teeth whitening in much further detail, join [00:00:20] us for online training only takes an hour completely free. Even if you never use [00:00:25] enlightened as a whitening system, you’ll learn loads and loads about whitening, how to talk about it, [00:00:30] how to involve your teams. Join us enlighten online training.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is dental Leaders. [00:00:40] The podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:00:45] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Hap Gill onto the podcast. I was just thinking about how [00:01:00] we’ve known each other 20 years, some 2005.

Hap Gill: I remember [00:01:05] I came, I was trying to figure it out, and it was. Yeah. Uh, as [00:01:10] you said, it was with rod. Yeah, that I think you brought him over. Yeah. And it [00:01:15] was a night out in town. Was it or was it a [00:01:20] lecture? And I think it was a really nice, cool place [00:01:25] called The collection. You were you were guys, you guys were there and we briefly met [00:01:30] there. And then I think there was a lecture that rod was doing the next day.

Payman Langroudi: Q clinic, we did what [00:01:35] you.

Hap Gill: Came to that. Oh my goodness. If you remember back in the day. Oh my goodness. Are they still here. [00:01:40]

Payman Langroudi: No no no no no.

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Hap Gill: 2005 and I was, I was you know, I was very happy [00:01:45] when you said that. Exactly the same.

Payman Langroudi: Reason.

Payman Langroudi: I it’s a pleasure to have you, man. I mean, one [00:01:50] one thing that I’ve always thought about you is you were always way ahead of your time. Um, [00:01:55] especially back then. Back then, when no one was talking about occlusion [00:02:00] very much, no one was talking about customer service. And [00:02:05] both you and Raj Ahluwalia, who you choose to work quite closely together. Yeah. [00:02:10] I just always think about, you know, that some dentists are good with their hands and some dentists are good at the, [00:02:15] um, other side, the practice management marketing side. But there’s a few [00:02:20] who are good at both.

Hap Gill: I know it’s kind of there’s two aspects of it. I think if [00:02:25] we were I don’t know if we were into banking or if we were sort of, I don’t [00:02:30] know anything, any other profession. And there’s a certain mentality. I don’t know whether [00:02:35] it’s your upbringing or not. It comes from your parents, uh, whether it’s nature or nurture. [00:02:40] Um, and one of the things you have to do is to be brave and to be [00:02:45] willing to make mistakes in business and in clinically as [00:02:50] well. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that, um, I mean, I’ve got to [00:02:55] tell you a story on my first day. My first day of qualifying [00:03:00] at work. At work as an associate. I had 40 patients booked [00:03:05] in first day. My first day there was an interconnecting door, and I was kind of numbing patients [00:03:10] in one room and going to the other one and I, you know, I was, you know, and then there were families that come in together [00:03:15] sort of through private. Right. So this this was VTE, VTE. This was [00:03:20] VTE. So I was on a salary. Um, and then the year after [00:03:25] that, I, um, got an associate job. And on [00:03:30] my first again on my first date. So this is the second year [00:03:35] I’ll be qualifying. Um, I had 50 patients booked in. It was. It was the [00:03:40] it was the day of, um, you know, there was no computers.

Hap Gill: You were writing, scrawling things. It [00:03:45] was like. So I had set 9 a.m., I had three patients, and, you know, it was like three [00:03:50] patients booked in not double, but but trouble. But I remember my old boss saying to me, I, you know, I wanted [00:03:55] you to be impressed by how busy we were in this diary. But on that first day, I [00:04:00] numbed someone up. I remember this, really. I numbed someone [00:04:05] up. And then I got him to sit in the waiting room. And I’ll be with you soon. And I. Half [00:04:10] an hour went by. An hour went by, an hour and a half went by. And I kind of forgotten [00:04:15] about him. So he, she, she, he sheepishly went to the front [00:04:20] desk and said, oh, I think, I think, uh, I think the dentist has forgotten about me. So [00:04:25] she knocked on the door not to know. Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. So I treated him. But [00:04:30] the worst thing about that story in that two hours, it was there he had his bike stolen. But [00:04:35] you know, I, I learned I qualified 91. I kind of bashed the Nash. [00:04:40] I still know how to say that these days, you know. You know, I did that.

[BOTH] : How many years?

Hap Gill: Three years. [00:04:45] Maybe four years. Yeah. Um, and then instead of the the point of the story is, [00:04:50] you know, I after those 3 or 4 for years I was thinking, I can’t work [00:04:55] like this. I need to, you know, learn something different. So [00:05:00] I did start going on courses and it was Mervyn Drouin. Um, and [00:05:05] there was the, um, the other chap he had to his first name and [00:05:10] his last name were two first names. But I’ve forgotten what he’s what it was. But was it Lester [00:05:15] or something like that. But anyway, so those kind of openings. Yeah. So Ellis.

[BOTH] : Paul Ellis. [00:05:20]

Hap Gill: Paul.

Payman Langroudi: So Paul handed.

[BOTH] : Then.

Hap Gill: Yeah. So they open, you know, open up my [00:05:25] eyes to the kind of. Yeah. Yeah. To kind of the work that we’re doing. [00:05:30] Yeah. Um, and then I bumped into a [00:05:35] chap in Weybridge a few years later and um, [00:05:40] beautiful practice in Weybridge. It was above a coster, actually [00:05:45] a beautiful practice. And, um, I just saw the work he was doing, [00:05:50] his photography for photography was incredible. And I said, you [00:05:55] know, where did you learn how to do all this stuff? And he said, you know, I learned this at the Pankey Institute. [00:06:00] And one of the things about the Pankey Institute of Miami is that they, um, [00:06:05] you know, that brave side of you, it’s not really the clinical, the dental side [00:06:10] of that brave side of you. Yeah, they really sort of encourage that. And they kind [00:06:15] of they really get the ball rolling in regards to that. I remember being [00:06:20] the only Brit, um, sat in that room. Uh, so there was, there was, [00:06:25] um, one Canadian, 16 from the US, and it was me. Um. [00:06:30]

Payman Langroudi: And had you gone straight after your three year bashing the Nash? [00:06:35]

Hap Gill: Uh, no, it was a couple. It was a couple of years later. But, um, when I met, [00:06:40] uh, Milton over at, uh, Weybridge, it was literally I was looking at flights [00:06:45] and booking it the next day, and within the next course I was on there. I don’t [00:06:50] remember. I don’t remember the first day. Rich green was giving the lecture [00:06:55] and it was nothing to do with dentistry. He said, design your ideal day. And it [00:07:00] was basically what you’re doing when you wake up, where you wake up, [00:07:05] where you go to work, and then what you do when you get home and everything that happens in between. [00:07:10] And we kind of spent quite a bit of time on that. I remember, uh, Dave [00:07:15] was sitting next to me as he was telling his story. He started to cry. And I think, what’s going on here? Um, [00:07:20] so it was, you know, and I think, oh, these are just Americans. They just just.

[BOTH] : Just just [00:07:25] just just.

Hap Gill: The way they are. Um, I’m just here for the bite. I’m just here for the teeth. [00:07:30] That’s what I thought, you know, occlusion. Um, but I think it took me a few years [00:07:35] to realise what Rich was actually trying to get to. Um. You don’t, you [00:07:40] know, it’s. Some people think that they’re going to. They’re going to learn occlusion or anything. [00:07:45] Composite building or anything. Just sitting in a lecture and going. Going on a course, [00:07:50] um, doing a hands on and somehow you’re going to [00:07:55] have this sort of magical dust sprinkle on, you suddenly become this master [00:08:00] composite or master occlusion. But you’ve got to be brave, and you actually have [00:08:05] to go out there and implement this stuff and, and, you know, do things that are reversible. [00:08:10] So what I did was I did splints on my wonderful receptionist [00:08:15] Jan, at the time. And, you know, I was sort of grinding around sort of hours and hours [00:08:20] on this splint learning about occlusion. Um, but, you know, you know, [00:08:25] as I said in answer your question, way beyond my time, I think I was probably born like that. [00:08:30] Um. Born brave. Um, and, [00:08:35] you know, I do learn from my mistakes as well.

Payman Langroudi: Do [00:08:40] you think people are born brave? I mean, don’t you? Can’t you sort of think back to influences in your childhood [00:08:45] that Made you look outside the box, because I think back to [00:08:50] my childhood and yeah, you know, we had a revolution, ran away and then, you [00:08:55] know, went to school with people whose parents were doing all sorts of amazing [00:09:00] things. And that opened my eyes to that. Yeah, yeah. And I often think back and think, what? [00:09:05] I’ve done all of this. If it wasn’t for some kid when I was eight telling me about his.

[BOTH] : Dad’s [00:09:10] factory, you know.

Hap Gill: You’re right. I mean, there is I think there’s a certain sort of genetic component, but it is [00:09:15] your sort of your upbringing. Upbringing? Certainly.

Payman Langroudi: What did your parents do?

Hap Gill: Um, [00:09:20] we my dad, we lost about 18 months ago. We. He [00:09:25] was a retired teacher. And I’ve got to say, [00:09:30] he was. I’m not just saying he was by far the most popular teacher in his school. He’s. [00:09:35] He taught in Shepherd’s Bush at Saint Stephen’s School. What [00:09:40] subject? Um, it was a primary school. It was mainly maths, but you got to do everything, and I remember [00:09:45] it was right opposite the BBC TV studios. I think it’s [00:09:50] they’re putting a bunch of apartments up there.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s very cool now.

Hap Gill: Um, and then I remember every [00:09:55] year in the summer fete, the whoever was Doctor Who at the time [00:10:00] would show up. And then I remember, um. Oh, was [00:10:05] it, was it Tom Baker? Yeah. And, and with the curly hair. So he would turn up with his booming voice and, [00:10:10] you know, as a, as a ten year old, I saw this guy that was about eight foot tall. Um, [00:10:15] but, you know, my dad was a teacher, but he [00:10:20] was always a he was also a mentor to all to those kids. And no one got [00:10:25] as many, uh, Christmas cards and, uh, sort of thank you cards, [00:10:30] uh, as presents on the last day of term. Uh, compared [00:10:35] to anyone else. I’m not just saying that. So I found him, um, you know, very inspirational, [00:10:40] especially with his kindness. Um, and he’s willing to a soft nature and is willing to [00:10:45] help, um, others. Uh, my mom was, um, [00:10:50] she was an accounts clerk for BA, so we took advantage of the, [00:10:55] uh, uh, the, the BA discounts for many, many years.

Payman Langroudi: Did you live in that part of [00:11:00] town?

Hap Gill: I was part of the Hounslow. Hounslow? Massive, you know. Yeah, exactly. And, [00:11:05] you know, I mean, thinking back, I had a I had a wonderful childhood, you know, it was it was great. Um, [00:11:10] it was sort of growing up in the 70s, uh, and [00:11:15] sort of early 80s with all the kind of, um, the, you know, the patchy bashing, [00:11:20] the sort of the racism and all that kind of stuff. You know, it’s I have no regrets regarding that. It’s character [00:11:25] building stuff. You know, it’s, you know, a lot of people think that I sometimes [00:11:30] can be a little bit standoffish and a little bit harsh and don’t take fools, you know, lightly, [00:11:35] really, but it’s kind of, I don’t know, I just don’t have time for that nonsense. You know, from. [00:11:40]

Payman Langroudi: Do you reflect on your kids now being sort of. I guess [00:11:45] more call it privileged and inverted commas. Do you reflect on the idea that they’re [00:11:50] not being formed?

Hap Gill: I mean, I don’t know. It’s funny because my, um, [00:11:55] my oldest is is just turned 13. Remember when we [00:12:00] were doing the, um, he had lots of tantrums [00:12:05] with difficulty when he was preparing for his, uh, 11 plus. Um, so one [00:12:10] of the things I used to do to inspire him was actually to drive him to where I used to, [00:12:15] where I grew up. So the thing is, in Hounslow West, I mean, you know, everyone [00:12:20] used to tend to their gardens. It was beautiful rose bushes, etc., but everything’s all tarmac off now. [00:12:25] There’s about three cars in the driveway and you know, there’s it’s it’s an interesting [00:12:30] place to be. So, um, I just said, look, you know, this is where I came from. [00:12:35] You do not live anywhere like this. And I used to say, you know, if you don’t study hard, Um, [00:12:40] you know, this is kind of, you know, where you’re going to end up. And then I [00:12:45] always used to take him to Filton rubbish dump as well. And I say, look, you know, this is a really, really [00:12:50] important job. Someone’s got to do it, but I don’t want you to do it. Um, I [00:12:55] think it still didn’t work. I think it was just really that it was just really the pressure [00:13:00] of. That was about six months before, I think three months before when he thought, oh, I’ve got to get my act together. [00:13:05] He started, you know, he started sort of getting, um, into that, um, [00:13:10] into his exams. And thankfully he did well. But, you know, I think, [00:13:15] I think the boys, they do. Um, I mean, [00:13:20] Adrian is ten and Dane is 13. And again, they [00:13:25] they do they do appreciate that they’re more they’ve got a better upbringing, the more privileged [00:13:30] than than myself and my wife. I mean, my wife, I mean, she grew up in. [00:13:35]

Payman Langroudi: Lithuania.

Hap Gill: In in a small village, um, is [00:13:40] sort of almost like a small hamlet in a small village in the middle of nowhere in, in Lithuania. And [00:13:45] and the boys say, you know, do you do you do used to hunt with spears. And did you used to point [00:13:50] at the sky when the, when the aeroplanes used to fly over. But, uh, you know, my [00:13:55] wife, you know, they didn’t always have running hot water and they, you know, their loo was in the [00:14:00] back garden. And, you know, she used to tell me lots of stories and, and the boys now, [00:14:05] you know, we were we were in Paris, um, a couple of weekends ago, just the beginning of [00:14:10] Easter. And they were really disappointed that the hotel did not have a swimming pool. So, you know, that’s [00:14:15] kind of the the difference these days.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, but [00:14:20] you how do they kids identify? Do they identify as British [00:14:25] or what do they.

Hap Gill: I mean, I always joke I mean, you know, you’re kind of you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Not Sikh.

Hap Gill: Are you? [00:14:30] Yeah. That’s my heritage. Um, and I always joke, and, you know, [00:14:35] I’m proud of my Hounslow upbringing. You know, that’s a really amazing [00:14:40] childhood. Made lots of wonderful friends that I still, you know, hang out with. Um, [00:14:45] and, um, I, you know, I tell them as a joke, you know, you’re not half Indian, half [00:14:50] Lithuanian, you’re half Hounslow Indian. Okay. You know, that’s that’s what you are. Um, and, [00:14:55] you know, we’ve taken them to India and they’ve, um, that, [00:15:00] you know, they, they, they do know that they are of Indian heritage and that they are of [00:15:05] Lithuanian heritage. And but I do tell them, you know, if England were playing, [00:15:10] um, Lithuania.

Payman Langroudi: Was that Norman Tebbit.

Hap Gill: Test in. This [00:15:15] is interesting. So if England were playing Lithuania, um, who would you [00:15:20] support in football? Who do you support? He says England. I said If England [00:15:25] playing Lithuanian basketball, who would you support? He says Lithuania. [00:15:30] And I said, okay, if England were playing India in cricket, who would you support? [00:15:35] He said India. And he and he and he says, you know, you’ve got to go with the winners. And and that’s [00:15:40] I’m quoting him and you know, but they are they they do know that that’s their heritage. [00:15:45] But they do see themselves as English and.

Payman Langroudi: They speak either of the other languages.

Hap Gill: No. Um, [00:15:50] we we took the boys to, um, it [00:15:55] always brings a smile to my face because they absolutely hated it. Um, they, um, [00:16:00] we took it to Lithuanian class on a Saturday morning. Um, [00:16:05] right up until lockdown. And, um, and then after lockdown, [00:16:10] it kind of kind of faded away. So we haven’t done that. So the eldest one can say [00:16:15] hello and sort of greetings and goodbye and thank you, that kind of thing. But the little one. No, it’s all kind of, you know, it’s [00:16:20] all it’s all gone now.

Payman Langroudi: And do you go once a year to Lithuania as well or.

Hap Gill: We try [00:16:25] and go there a couple of times a year, a couple of times a year, a couple of times. Yeah. I mean I really like it. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: I liked it a lot last. [00:16:30]

Hap Gill: Year when I went to Vilnius.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a wonderful.

Hap Gill: Time. You know, we, you know, we go to Vilnius. We go to [00:16:35] Kaunas. We’ve been to the the beach resorts. But I also like being in the village because [00:16:40] there’s absolutely nothing to do. And it’s like, you know, you literally it’s sometimes it’s good to have nothing to [00:16:45] do because you make your own entertainment and you’re, you know, sat in the backyard garden and, you know, um, [00:16:50] watching the world go by.

Payman Langroudi: I’m going to ask you a question. Right. And I want you to bear [00:16:55] in mind before you answer the question, I want you to bear in mind that we all, you [00:17:00] know, the filter that we all kind of tend to tell younger [00:17:05] dentists to do what we did.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I want you to bear that in mind. I want you to [00:17:10] discount for that. Yeah. So now if one of your kids decide [00:17:15] to be a dentist. Yeah. What would you advise them to do? Like, and [00:17:20] bear in mind, they don’t have to do the three years of age that you just because you did it. Do you see what I’m saying? [00:17:25] So if you had to design their career, if you wanted to design their career, yeah. How [00:17:30] would you where would you tell a young dentist Now to start and go and and which kinds of decisions [00:17:35] should they make? And what are the things that they should pay more attention to?

Hap Gill: I think I think personal [00:17:40] development is really, really important in whatever profession you go in. Um, I think communication [00:17:45] is extremely important and you have to learn it. Um, [00:17:50] I mean, even Tai I mean, it’s a skill that needs. It’s a skill. I mean, Tiger Woods has [00:17:55] got a coach. He’s a he was the best, uh, golfer in [00:18:00] the world, but he still had a coach. So people, um, you know, think they know how to communicate. So I think that’s [00:18:05] a really important skill. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: So when you say communication, what would you tell them [00:18:10] to learn?

Hap Gill: I think I think listening skills are really, really important. [00:18:15] There’s there’s hearing and then there’s listening. And one of the things about listening [00:18:20] is to really make sure that the patient [00:18:25] is understood is to actually repeat back what they just said. And, you know, [00:18:30] and ask them, is that is that what you’re you know what you’re talking about? Is that what you said? Well, [00:18:35] that’s a really important thing. Um, and then, you know, communication [00:18:40] also, um, you know, it helps with, you know, you [00:18:45] want to create a win win situation with your patients. Yeah. Um, not everyone that comes [00:18:50] into my practice drops 50 grand and sort of does a rehab. But the thing is, uh, you [00:18:55] know, there’s a certain way of communicating, um, that this work needs to be [00:19:00] done, and you have to at least have the balls to have that [00:19:05] conversation. Have the conversation with the patient exactly the [00:19:10] same as you would have with the loved one. You know, if you’re if you’re, um, if your mom or dad [00:19:15] or your, um, brother or sister in the chair, there’s a certain way you talk. [00:19:20] There’s, you know, you tell the, you know, the what’s wrong and what you want to do about it. [00:19:25] Yeah. Um, and then do that with all the, uh, with your patients, um, [00:19:30] with your non, uh, family member patients as well. Just talk to them [00:19:35] the same. Hopefully you understand what I’m saying.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. No, I actually teach that. I teach that for whitening. [00:19:40] You know, people have difficulty bringing up whitening with their patients. And I say, well, just if it was your daughter [00:19:45] or your mother, what would you tell them about whitening?

Hap Gill: Yeah, exactly. And the thing is, [00:19:50] um, you know, it’s it’s there’s [00:19:55] almost kind of like I tell my associates at my practice, uh, [00:20:00] the specialist. No one cares at your specialist. The only person that cares your specialist is you [00:20:05] and the GDC. But no one actually cares. You know, the patient wants you to be [00:20:10] listened to and they want to be treated well. They want to be seen on time. They want you to be kind. They want [00:20:15] you to have a painless, um, experience. The, um, [00:20:20] you know, it’s and the other thing that I, I tell [00:20:25] my And even my specialists are half my age. But, I mean, you know, my associates [00:20:30] at the practice. You know, I say, you know, be a doctor, okay? [00:20:35] You know, you’re the doctor. You’ve got to be a doctor. What I mean by that is, um, [00:20:40] you know, it’s I think one of the things you were talking about, young dentists, they’re fantastic [00:20:45] at writing notes, and they’re fantastic at giving the patient every single [00:20:50] goddamn option under the sun. But that poor sucker that sat in [00:20:55] your chair. It’s guidance. It needs guidance.

Payman Langroudi: Agreed. I feel that with lawyers. [00:21:00] Right. I’ve got a difference in a good lawyer and a great lawyer. Yeah. Is that a good lawyer? Will tell you. These are the three options. [00:21:05] The great lawyer would say. These are the three options. I would pick option two.

Hap Gill: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, [00:21:10] it’s it’s a fantastic, you know, uh, profession. Um, I was certainly not [00:21:15] discouraged. My kids. Um, but I think there’s the dental part of it is almost [00:21:20] kind of the easiest part of it. You know, it’s it’s dealing with the human side of [00:21:25] the patient, and, you know, your internal sort of, um, limits as to, [00:21:30] you know, what you can accomplish, uh, clinically. Um, you know, that that [00:21:35] is more you know, what I think you should be working on. So for my boys, I would [00:21:40] not discourage them. I would, you know, I would.

Payman Langroudi: That’s refreshing to hear.

Hap Gill: Because I would encourage them to, [00:21:45] you know, to do it if that. You know, if, if that is what they want to do. But I [00:21:50] mean, my older son, he’s a, he’s a I can always already see it. I mean, he’s kind of he’s more of an entrepreneur. [00:21:55] He’s, you know, buying his big bags of Haribo and kind of splitting it and then flogging it to his mates. [00:22:00] Is he there? Sugar free, of course.

Payman Langroudi: But yeah.

Hap Gill: Yeah, yeah, but they’re not, uh, and the [00:22:05] little one at the moment, he’s extremely creative. So you know, is that kind of, you know, where’s, [00:22:10] where’s this going to lead the business side of the creative side. But I just, you know, I will encourage [00:22:15] them whatever they want to do. But it’s a it’s it’s an amazing profession.

Payman Langroudi: So you say that though because [00:22:20] whatever they want to do, it’s often turns into they have no idea.

Hap Gill: Yeah, well, [00:22:25] at the moment it’s no idea.

Payman Langroudi: But even a 15 year old. 16 year old. Yeah, yeah, a lot of [00:22:30] them. I know there’s some who do. Yeah, yeah. But a lot of them, in my experience, my kids are a bit older [00:22:35] now. Yeah. They have no idea. And then the weird thing about it is that all this worthy [00:22:40] talk about let them do what they want to do. Yeah. Sometimes you end up giving the same [00:22:45] advice as your parents gave you. Just study and you’ll be okay as a dentist. [00:22:50]

Hap Gill: So you can’t become a doctor.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And it’s a little bit sad because I can see [00:22:55] with you you’re quite an evolved character. You’re not, you’re not. You’re not the typical [00:23:00] person like you. Look at you. You like dressed differently. You think differently.

Hap Gill: In which [00:23:05] way am I dressed differently?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Do. You always think differently. [00:23:10] That’s one thing I always think about you. Um, but. But at the same time, [00:23:15] it’s amazing how much of those things still stay in you.

Hap Gill: I mean, I mean, the thing [00:23:20] is, I’ve got to I’ve got I’ve got to I’ll tell you something. And the thing is, I’m not entirely sure [00:23:25] what I should say, but I’m going to say it anyway. The one of the things about being brave [00:23:30] is, and sort of learning from others is I was once [00:23:35] at a friend of mine, had a PR company, and he [00:23:40] was unfortunately, we lost him in 2008, [00:23:45] but he was one of the most inspirational people [00:23:50] that I I’ve ever met. But I [00:23:55] don’t know, I should tell this story, but I’m going to say it. You can cut it if you want to. So, um, so [00:24:00] we were we were at lunch, so it was me and, uh, my buddy al, and, uh, [00:24:05] my friend, and he he said I was just going to the loo. He disappeared [00:24:10] for half an hour, and I was thinking, you know, you [00:24:15] know, um, and then he sort of turned up, we’ll look into sort of hot and sweaty and whatever. And I was thinking, Harry, [00:24:20] what the hell you do? You know, we’re having lunch. What you doing? You went for a dump in this. You know, a wrestle [00:24:25] or whatever. Yeah. No no no no no, I, I, you know, I met this girl [00:24:30] as I was going to the loo, and I took her downstairs and I was shaking [00:24:35] her and then I came back upstairs as you do the deed. Go on. And then and [00:24:40] then and then the thing is. But he’s he’s always been like this. He’s always kind of. [00:24:45] He was, you know, um, he had millions invested, you know, with [00:24:50] a.com bubble and, um, you know, the ladies used to just fall to [00:24:55] his feet. So. And the other thing is from being brave, um, [00:25:00] and again, this is, you know, whether you’re a dentist or, uh, [00:25:05] in the dating world or anything, it’s all kind of quite similar. You have to step out your [00:25:10] comfort zone. So I actually started studying dating, and actually [00:25:15] after a few years of study, I actually became a dating coach for a few years. So really fast [00:25:20] forward I was.

Payman Langroudi: In how.

Hap Gill: Interesting. I was in Sweden, um, in Stockholm, [00:25:25] and I was my special area was, uh, but you [00:25:30] didn’t think you were going to hear this out of my voice? Um, so my special area of interest, [00:25:35] uh, my speciality, not GDC qualified. My speciality, um, [00:25:40] was something called day games. So basically is where you seduce, um, girls [00:25:45] when you meet, um, you know.

Payman Langroudi: In the.

Hap Gill: Street, basically.

Payman Langroudi: Anyway, the pickup [00:25:50] artist.

Hap Gill: Things that you watch, all that kind.

Payman Langroudi: Of stuff on YouTube.

Hap Gill: And funnily enough, what [00:25:55] I learned there and the communication is when my business really [00:26:00] took off as well. It’s almost like this. It’s kind of like as [00:26:05] the dentist as as the, um, you know, as the guy [00:26:10] trying to pick up the girl. Um, it’s a lot of times when you grow up, you almost kind [00:26:15] of think that you have to impress the girl or patient comes in for a consultation. You have to impress them by [00:26:20] your qualifications. But no, it’s like I choose you as a patient coming to this [00:26:25] practice and there are certain things that you. But I’m a bit older and grumpier now, so I can [00:26:30] do.

Payman Langroudi: I never thought the Dental Leaders podcast would give us these skills, but take me through some of the Dating [00:26:35] Day game, uh, principles and then relate them to dentistry like [00:26:40] the one you just said.

Hap Gill: The thing is, you know what? You, um.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s say you see a girl in the street. Let’s [00:26:45] start there.

Hap Gill: There’s a couple of approaches. Okay. So one, the [00:26:50] approach that I don’t like, which is basically go up to her and say, you know, what’s the time? And, [00:26:55] you know, just kind of like that’s called an indirect approach. And that’s really about, um, [00:27:00] sort of it’s almost kind of like linking into what your, your, what you’re going to actually what you [00:27:05] actually want to say. And my preferred way of doing it is, um, going up [00:27:10] to goal and just kind of always kind of you have to go from the front because it’s from the, from the back, [00:27:15] you kind of cause surprising surprise him. So you just, you know, you’re just going to stop them [00:27:20] like that, and you say, you know, I just couldn’t. I couldn’t let you walk by. But, you know, without telling you [00:27:25] that I think you’re the most beautiful girl I’ve seen all day. And, um, [00:27:30] it kind of stops them in their tracks. It’s a very alpha trait, very manly trait that you need to have. [00:27:35] And then from there, you can link into, um, [00:27:40] you know, what are you up to today? And then what you need to do is you need to communicate [00:27:45] that you are successful, and a leader of men is the other thing. [00:27:50] And the way that you communicate that is that. Oh, I you know, I’m [00:27:55] just off to.

Payman Langroudi: Um, see my crew.

Hap Gill: Yeah. You say that. I’m [00:28:00] just. You can say that I’m off to my dental practice. I’ve got, you know, appointment. My patient is [00:28:05] waiting for me. Or you can say, you know, I’ve got a lecture to prepare for is that kind of thing. Um, [00:28:10] and then, um, you know, you link to, um, [00:28:15] what you like about them. Okay. And again, relating to this to the patients [00:28:20] is, um, you know, you’re listening to the patient. You’re telling [00:28:25] them. Um, it’s almost as though right at the beginning [00:28:30] you’re almost saying, you know what? I don’t even know whether I can help you or not. And you have got to be really, [00:28:35] really genuine with it. Uh, does that make sense?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Hap Gill: Of course. You know, it’s not saying, you know, [00:28:40] I can do this and show you a whole bunch of before and afters. It’s kind of, you know what, don’t you? And you have to [00:28:45] communicate. You know, I don’t even know whether I can help you or not. And, you know, all of these, you know, I [00:28:50] told you that I met, uh, Deville on a, um, my wife had [00:28:55] a sort of, you know, drunken Friday night out in vodka revolution. And the thing is, um, [00:29:00] I actually went out. Funny is when we first started dating, within a month, I [00:29:05] was actually out in Stockholm doing this kind of thing, and she just did not understand what I was saying. But anyway, that’s another [00:29:10] story. Um, but the thing is, she always said to me, you never did any of those lines on [00:29:15] me. You never did any of those. So I said, did I do this? I said, yes. Did I do this? Yes. So I went [00:29:20] through it all. But you were talking to my friend. You had your back turned to me and I said, [00:29:25] this is. This is what happens. This is the game. You know, this is what you do. And again, when it’s treated [00:29:30] to patients, it’s that lack of desperation. Yeah. That sort of air [00:29:35] of sort of, you know, um, it’s not arrogance because you’re actually listening, but, you know, there is [00:29:40] no there’s no desperation for you to, you know, take this, uh, uh, patient [00:29:45] on. And I remember, um, and the thing is, [00:29:50] you know, beauty is very common.

Hap Gill: Okay. You know, there’s beautiful girls [00:29:55] everywhere, but, you know, there’s always got to be a reason and [00:30:00] and why, you know, you choose a girl, and the girl has to convince you, [00:30:05] um, why you should choose her. And it’s the same with sort of with, with [00:30:10] patients as well. And one of the things that one of the things that I say, it’s an [00:30:15] Invisalign consultation. Um, one of the questions that I would [00:30:20] ask is, um, you know, I would explain [00:30:25] the system, what my TCO would explain the system, and, and, um, [00:30:30] and she would ask, you know, do you think you can do this? Okay. [00:30:35] And then the patient says, yes, that they they can do this. And then but [00:30:40] she follows up that question by saying, um, why do [00:30:45] you think you can do this? What is it about this system that you like? So they almost justifying it in their [00:30:50] brain as to why they can do this. And then it’s things like we will show, um, [00:30:55] samples of completed cases and say, you know, is that kind of what you’re looking for? Yeah. [00:31:00] And, uh, and then the patient says, yes, but again, uh, [00:31:05] you know, my tissue would say, um, what is it about these [00:31:10] these patients smiles that you like. So. It’s kind of getting really into their. Sort of [00:31:15] emotional side. And at the end of the day, this is not manipulation because the patient is the one that [00:31:20] really wins. Yeah. Always.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Does it extend [00:31:25] to the practice itself as well? I mean, is there is there like [00:31:30] a, um, idea that, you know, you know, we we’re not [00:31:35] we’re we’re fully booked sort of this sort of thing.

Hap Gill: Like, I mean, the thing is, we [00:31:40] one of our sort of, um, when we do our communication days, [00:31:45] uh, we do our team training days or our team meetings, one of the things that I [00:31:50] always say to, um, all of the team is, you know, you can say [00:31:55] no to a patient. You know, we are, um, you know, we don’t, um, [00:32:00] we only do dentistry. The patients need or want. Okay. [00:32:05] Um, we are proud of our fees. Um, [00:32:10] you know, we were blowing hard for it. We got very, very high standards. [00:32:15] Uh, but one of the things about, you know, I, you know, the point I do want to make [00:32:20] is especially with the new team that kind of start on. And I do [00:32:25] my philosophical induction, um, is that, you know, we’re not desperate, [00:32:30] you know, and we should never communicate this. As I said, [00:32:35] it’s a bit like dating.

Payman Langroudi: So Patty Lundy says to have some stuff about that. You take the [00:32:40] sign off the door and lock the door and. Yeah. And only accept patients [00:32:45] by referral.

Hap Gill: Yeah. We’re not, we’re not, we’re not quite like that. Yeah, we’re not quite like that.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s interesting, [00:32:50] it’s an interesting thing. And you know the non Dental cuz. [00:32:55] Yeah I mean I find it very interesting that what you’re saying in such as, I like the [00:33:00] idea of looking at other industries and trying to pull over things that [00:33:05] you learn from those other industries. And for me, now, I like food and restaurants and all that. [00:33:10] Right? So I’ve gone really deep into the whole, you know, hospitality world. Yeah. And [00:33:15] amazing lessons. You learn very similar lessons. You know, you get the old chefs complaining that the new [00:33:20] chefs are only interested in sous vide cooking or something, you know, like a kind of composite bond that, [00:33:25] you know.

Hap Gill: Have you ever watched. And this is our guilty pleasure below deck?

Payman Langroudi: No. [00:33:30]

Hap Gill: What’s that? Okay. You got to watch it. So it’s basically a superyacht worth probably about £200 million. [00:33:35] And then you pay. I think it must be about 100 grand for [00:33:40] every night that you so. So people hire it. Um. And it is. [00:33:45] So you’ve got the captain, and then you’ve got the crew that services [00:33:50] the guests, and then you’ve got the crew that services the boat. And the dynamics [00:33:55] I find is very much like working in a dental [00:34:00] practice. And, you know, yes, we do the five star service in, in [00:34:05] our practice. But if you ever watch that, it’s going to make you chuckle because you’ll see [00:34:10] so many of your of yourself in the captain and [00:34:15] so many of your team, team in the crew. And there’s lots of lessons [00:34:20] to be learned, um, from, from watching that. So yeah, you can extrapolate that into a dental practice. [00:34:25]

Payman Langroudi: So let’s talk about team management and communication with the team. Um, [00:34:30] you know, you must have been in practice for 30 years or more even.

Hap Gill: I’ve got to tell you a story. [00:34:35] So I think this is around about sort of November, about seven and a half years ago. Yeah. Um, [00:34:40] three of my team resigned in one week, so one resigned on a.

Payman Langroudi: Monday purpose [00:34:45] or.

Hap Gill: One resigned on a Monday. One one resigned on a Tuesday. The [00:34:50] one the last one was on Friday.

Payman Langroudi: But they do it together at the same time on purpose. No separate.

Hap Gill: Separate [00:34:55] thing. Completely separate. Yeah. And I thought, you know, I thought I was a running a great team and sort [00:35:00] of everything was hunky dory. And you know, we all got on really well. And, you know, I used to buy them cake and, you know, [00:35:05] take it for a drink and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. Um, but you know, the feedback. So I got [00:35:10] the last one was on Friday is, um, so [00:35:15] basically, um. So [00:35:20] the last night on Friday, I said, look, you know, I said, why, you know, what’s going on? And she [00:35:25] said, you know, I, you know, this is not for me anymore. It’s the the I’m [00:35:30] not getting on with this girl and I’m not getting on with that person. I’m not getting on with this person. And then [00:35:35] I called up the one that finished on Tuesday, and then she said the same thing. She wasn’t getting on with [00:35:40] the same the the same person, and they did not want to be in that environment. [00:35:45] Yeah. Um, and I was thinking, oh my God, I thought they were all getting on. So I thought, I’ve got [00:35:50] to do something about it. And then so what, what we did, um, from there [00:35:55] is I kind of sat down and I thought, [00:36:00] you know, we’ve got to kind of build a team that gets on, that [00:36:05] has a common purpose and a reason as to why they’re doing it.

Hap Gill: Um, [00:36:10] so we did. I thought we’d do a, um, a, um, morning [00:36:15] together. So we went to the, um, uh, I had, um, [00:36:20] the, uh, what is it called? One of the board rooms at the Peacham Hotel. Uh, just [00:36:25] up the road in Richmond. Um, and one of the most important things that [00:36:30] we worked on was getting to know each other. Okay. And then what [00:36:35] we do is we partner up, and then we, um, there’s a [00:36:40] list of questions. Who’s in your family, where you grew up, why [00:36:45] you work, and you’re not allowed to give the reason for money. Okay. Um, what [00:36:50] would your ideal job be? And then, um, what lessons did you [00:36:55] learn from growing up? And there was another question. I think it was something like, what? What what do you want from [00:37:00] your team-mates? Okay. So, um, so the you [00:37:05] get paired up and then you interview each other. Okay. Yeah. So this is actually [00:37:10] a trust exercise. And it was a listening exercise as well because your partner. [00:37:15] So they would stand up and you would introduce them and you would read your notes. [00:37:20]

Payman Langroudi: To.

Hap Gill: The group. To the group. Okay. So this is really did you, did you understand [00:37:25] what what the other person was about? Yeah. Okay. And then the two things that blew me away. Not everyone [00:37:30] always got the accurate information down. The other thing is, it’s the first time they found [00:37:35] out about stuff in each other. Even though they’ve been working for years. Yeah. This is the first time they knew [00:37:40] how interesting, you know, and it’s things and it’s little things. Like one of them, you know, had a, you know, a 605 [00:37:45] train. And then she was always late for it. And she got in the hunt because the next train was at six. [00:37:50] So it was little things like that. So sometimes if she could just get off a little bit early. Okay. [00:37:55] So it was just little things like that. And there was other little things like, you know. You know, I’m not in [00:38:00] this day. Please, can you check the workers in? You know, little things like that? Yeah. [00:38:05] And then one of the things that I did, um, also was [00:38:10] I just, I really wanted my team to understand why [00:38:15] I do this stuff.

Hap Gill: Okay. And then I played a video of, um, [00:38:20] a few smile reviews and, and, um, some testimonials. [00:38:25] Then I then I asked, you know, how did you feel watching that? And they all basically [00:38:30] felt warm, gooey feeling. And it’s good to do this for our patients. Um, [00:38:35] and I said, that is why I do it. Okay. There’s lots of ways to make money, [00:38:40] but that is the reason why I do it, because you’re making a little bit of a difference to people’s lives. Um, and they [00:38:45] continuously that’s the feedback that we get from our patients, whether [00:38:50] we improve their smiles or they can eat steak again or whatever. Um, [00:38:55] so that’s the other thing that we, um, worked on. And the other thing is we tend [00:39:00] to work on is the financials as well. Um, you know, everyone in the practice knows [00:39:05] how much it costs to run the practice. And again, it blows them away. Uh, [00:39:10] you know what we’re actually paying for, you know, sort of, you know, everything from the rates to, [00:39:15] you know, all the materials and and so on.

Payman Langroudi: Do you are you open with the Ebit [00:39:20] number.

Hap Gill: The.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:39:25] profit.

Hap Gill: Um, we we [00:39:30] do well.

Payman Langroudi: Know you open with the team on the Ebit.

Hap Gill: Number. Oh, the Ebit number. Oh [00:39:35] yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Hap Gill: So the team stability and the profitability. Yeah. They know all about that. Yeah [00:39:40] I.

Payman Langroudi: Find.

Hap Gill: That useful. Yeah they do that. And we and we do um exercises [00:39:45] about sort of uh, one of my, um, the [00:39:50] ones we did last years, you know, you’re running a, you’ve got a, you’ve got a costume shop, it’s Halloween. You’re [00:39:55] really, really busy and you need to employ one more person. It will [00:40:00] cost you. Um. You know that much to employ this person for the two weeks run up to Halloween? [00:40:05] Would you employ them? So they all said yes at the beginning. Okay, but when I gave the numbers of the [00:40:10] of the of that costume store and what actually how much extra revenue they need to generate [00:40:15] to employ that person, they all said no. Yeah. So it’s interesting for them to get into [00:40:20] the dynamics of, you know, the, uh, actually, you know, what it costs to run [00:40:25] a, uh, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, well, while we’re here in this part of the port, let’s [00:40:30] get to the errors part. Yeah, we like mistakes. I want to hear management [00:40:35] errors you’ve made in your time and what you learned from them.

Hap Gill: Business management errors, management errors. [00:40:40] So I think that’s what I was sort of saying. Um, referring to earlier [00:40:45] on I wasn’t I wasn’t sort of in there managing as much as I, um, [00:40:50] should be. Um, hence I didn’t know what was going on with the team dynamic. So that’s one [00:40:55] of the things that, you know, mistakes I mentioned before.

Payman Langroudi: Do something about that person who is pissing [00:41:00] everyone off.

Hap Gill: Um. So [00:41:05] on Jazz’s first day, my first [00:41:10] day of work, I find that person. And she was [00:41:15] shouting and swearing at me, and, uh, jazz is in the room next door. It was about quarter [00:41:20] nine. And you’re saying, what the hell is going on here? So. But I mean, I you know, the thing is, I [00:41:25] always, you know, um, firing people. I think you have to do [00:41:30] that in a in a nice way as well. And I, and I hope I, I’ve done that over the years [00:41:35] and in a, in a sort of.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a tough part.

Hap Gill: Of it. It’s a tough part of the job. But you know I, you know, necessary. [00:41:40] Yeah. Necessary part of the job. But the thing is, you know, I always kind of I’m paraphrasing here now, I always [00:41:45] kind of say, you know, um, it’s, you know, you know, [00:41:50] we’re we’re this is just not the right place for you. You know, I’m hoping we can remain [00:41:55] friends at the end of all this, but this is not the right environment for you. You know, that’s how [00:42:00] we tend to.

Payman Langroudi: You ever had to fire someone who laid their life down for you?

Hap Gill: Uh, no.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:42:05] have, and I was talking I interviewed the of of fear from uh, uh, [00:42:10] Pearl. Pearl. I yeah, he he his first company, they sold [00:42:15] for $3 billion or something. And then this one, he’s growing. And [00:42:20] I asked him that question and he said every single person he’s fired. Yeah, has laid down their lives [00:42:25] for the company because by the time it gets to him. Yeah, that’s that’s the [00:42:30] person that they’re having to fire. Yeah. And it’s tough man.

Hap Gill: It’s it’s it’s really [00:42:35] difficult.

Payman Langroudi: There’s someone who’s done something gone way above and beyond. Yeah, yeah, that [00:42:40] I remember when when that thing happened, I thought, this person is going to be with us till the end. Yeah, but then [00:42:45] the job outgrew that person. Yeah. And, and and, you know, it’s it’s even harder. And yet, [00:42:50] if you want to be the leader, that’s one of the roles, right?

Hap Gill: That’s one thing. Are you friends with any [00:42:55] of your employees?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, I’m too friendly with all of my employees.

Hap Gill: Yeah. So [00:43:00] that’s what I mean. So, you know, with friends, have you had them around for dinner and sort of. Yeah. So.

Payman Langroudi: But then we’re a partnership. [00:43:05] Yeah. So in a partnership, it’s different because you can have a good cops and bad cops. Yeah. And [00:43:10] and and all of that. Yeah. You know, we’ve had people stay here for 15 years or 16 years. [00:43:15] You end up becoming friends. Right? There’s no doubt about that. But I don’t know. So, man, that [00:43:20] that was one era. Um, did you ever think. I mean, did you ever think of [00:43:25] having more than one practice? Because if you’ve got more than one practice, you certainly haven’t got [00:43:30] oversight over everything that’s going on.

Hap Gill: I mean, one of.

Payman Langroudi: Are you too much of a perfectionist [00:43:35] for that?

Hap Gill: So you know what it is. It’s quite often [00:43:40] I do I do hear, you know, bandied around that you can brand certain [00:43:45] types of dentistry. I mean, I don’t think you can. Uh, there is branding [00:43:50] in dentistry, but if you look at, say, an orthopaedic surgeon, uh, if you look at [00:43:55] an obstetrician, um, you know, how do you brand that? You [00:44:00] know, it’s there is a certain type of patient that will seek you out, and [00:44:05] that’s for what you do in your reputation. I remember going back to when, [00:44:10] um, Arian was, was, you know, uh, was pregnant with Arian, and we were [00:44:15] looking for an obstetrician. And our criteria wasn’t this sort of branding or who [00:44:20] the cheapest guy is in town? I was asking my doctor mates, you know, who would you recommend? [00:44:25] Um, so having another practice, um, [00:44:30] unless it is very, very local, you kind of walk in between. And you did a couple of days here and [00:44:35] a couple of days. It would be very, very difficult to replicate your, your service, um, in both [00:44:40] those practices.

Payman Langroudi: I hear you, I hear you and and by the way, there’s nothing wrong [00:44:45] at all with one A perfect one. One place that you’re perfecting, continually [00:44:50] perfecting. Yeah, yeah. It’s one of the wonderful things about our our job that [00:44:55] you can in one practice. Have a great life, wonderful life. But [00:45:00] you accept that if I walk into a Louis Vuitton in [00:45:05] Mumbai. Yeah, or in Los Angeles shop, I [00:45:10] don’t give a damn. But let’s imagine I’ve never been to a Louis Vuitton show. But you [00:45:15] accept the experience will be the same.

Hap Gill: And that’s what.

Payman Langroudi: I’m saying in that.

Hap Gill: Limited field. That’s [00:45:20] why I say you can brand the practice.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, no, but I agree with you because I’ve had I’ve [00:45:25] had someone sitting here a corporate type, and he was saying, yeah, the experience [00:45:30] is the same in all whatever number of sites it was. And then it came [00:45:35] down to when I asked the questions, it turned out the experience before you get to the dentist. Yeah, [00:45:40] it’s the same. But once, once they’re through that door, the experience he’s got, [00:45:45] he goes. And he abdicated it into total clinical freedom. Yeah. So [00:45:50] so, you know, the experience could be all sorts of different things based on based on that. So I accept.

Hap Gill: That. [00:45:55] I mean, the thing is you can have systems for how to how to answer the phone, how to welcome someone, how to [00:46:00] say.

Payman Langroudi: Hi, clinical systems to.

Hap Gill: Know. Yeah, you can have clinical systems.

Payman Langroudi: I’m sure you’ve got loads of clinical [00:46:05] systems, right. That you’re teaching your associates.

Hap Gill: Yeah. They I mean you know what to do in [00:46:10] say, you know, an attachment and delivery appointment. This is the way that I do it. How to do retainers and [00:46:15] so on. I do you know, try and.

Payman Langroudi: You know, photography co diagnosis all [00:46:20] the first parts anyway you can.

Hap Gill: So TCO tends to handle that. So [00:46:25] she’s got all the forms and she’s fantastic.

Payman Langroudi: Uh but then there we are. So, so we could, we [00:46:30] could copy and paste your practice if we wanted to. I know I’m not saying you want to, but [00:46:35] if you wanted to. Do you think it’s possible?

Hap Gill: Yeah, I think I think you could, depending on who the clinicians [00:46:40] are. And, you know, hopefully they’ll be better than me. So.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Do you think [00:46:45] you’re good at hiring?

Hap Gill: Oh my goodness. Um. I’m getting better. [00:46:50] Um, I used to do it on a kind of like a like a gut [00:46:55] feeling, and, you know, not always check the references and all that kind of thing, but I’m a lot stricter [00:47:00] now, and, you know, we had to. I’m always insisting on a trial period now. And we had [00:47:05] to, uh, let someone go a couple of months ago because she just wasn’t was [00:47:10] that front desk. And she just wasn’t just wasn’t getting what we were, what we were.

Payman Langroudi: What about dentistry? [00:47:15]

Hap Gill: Uh, dentists?

Payman Langroudi: Um, is it easy? Is it? Can you can [00:47:20] you tell quite quickly when you’re talking to, let’s say, a young dentist or a specialist that [00:47:25] they, they, they’re the right kind of person? Or have you made mistakes in that area?

Hap Gill: So [00:47:30] can we chat as an example? So jazz um, I first [00:47:35] met on Twitter of, you know, um, back in the day. That’s got to be [00:47:40] when he was a dental student. Oh, really? So he asked me a few questions, and, uh, apparently [00:47:45] he was asking lots of dentist questions, and, um, he was, [00:47:50] um, you know, he was asking lots of questions. I was the only dentist that replied [00:47:55] to him. I can’t even remember what it was. I think it was something to do with what shall I do? And I basically said the [00:48:00] same thing. I said, learn communication, you know, learn business before you develop [00:48:05] your clinical skills. So we had a bit of turn for England Twitter. And then I think [00:48:10] he popped in one summer holiday just to hang out with me as well. So I [00:48:15] knew he was a lovely guy. I knew he was a really nice guy, and he was really keen on [00:48:20] learning and doing dentistry to the best of his ability. So, uh, [00:48:25] once he qualified, he was kind of hinting at wanting to [00:48:30] work with me and what I, what I actually did with him was I encouraged him to work [00:48:35] elsewhere, uh, basically make some mistakes elsewhere.

Hap Gill: And then you come back to see me. So he actually went to [00:48:40] Singapore and had a great time, and then he came out and joined that practice. But [00:48:45] in answer to your question, I’ve never had to advertise for a role. I [00:48:50] do put posts on Facebook, but it’s always from word of mouth. Um, you know, drew [00:48:55] normally recommends someone or somebody that I know recommends [00:49:00] somebody or, you know, one of my associates recommended an endodontic, uh, that work [00:49:05] for us and so on. It’s that kind of thing. And we’re looking, uh, we were looking for an orthodontist. One [00:49:10] of our therapists recommended the orthodontist. So, you know, there’s lots of things. Sort of, um, [00:49:15] that’s the kind of the way that I’ve kind of found clinicians. [00:49:20] Um, and, you know, we are gently, sort of softly [00:49:25] looking for another associate at the moment. But, you know, you know, I will, you know, [00:49:30] I will, um, again, you know, we’re not advertising for one. [00:49:35] Uh, we’ll if I bump into someone interesting at a meeting [00:49:40] or, you know, an event or someone. I will certainly pursue that. [00:49:45]

Payman Langroudi: What about clinical errors?

Hap Gill: Clinical errors? Oh my goodness. How [00:49:50] long you got?

Payman Langroudi: Not that one. Let’s get the juicy ones.

Hap Gill: Um, [00:49:55] so I suppose that the only real kind of error [00:50:00] I’ve made really, is there was a [00:50:05] a lady. Um, this is going back probably about [00:50:10] 15 years ago, and she had, um. Org Laurentia was [00:50:15] Laurentia was really, really poor prognosis. And, um, [00:50:20] so and the funny thing is, one of these patients didn’t have a lot of money. So we [00:50:25] we had helped her out with perio treatment and she said, look, you know, you just don’t worry about, you know, paying, [00:50:30] you know, when you’ve got money, just, just you can sort it out. And then it just came to [00:50:35] a head where we needed she needed treatment. See, these lower centres were just going to be gone. [00:50:40] They were just. You can almost like, play them like piano keys. And I said to her, look, you know, we [00:50:45] can do. I mean, she needed, you know, them out. She needed full period treatment. She implants it. I [00:50:50] said, look, as it kind of like an interim. What we can do is, um. So my [00:50:55] plan is to make a Maryland, um, but to use the actual her teeth as [00:51:00] the kind of the pontic. So, Nick, nip off the ends of the teeth.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. 3 to. [00:51:05]

Hap Gill: 3. Uh, so it was actually 2 to 2. Okay. So I was gonna keep the twos [00:51:10] and then nip off the end of the of the ones. So I did that. Proud of my work. Was [00:51:15] solid for many years.

Payman Langroudi: So what do you do? You send that tooth to the technician?

Hap Gill: No, no, I [00:51:20] did an impression. Yeah. Uh, which is not easy in in in wobbly teeth. So lots of wax, [00:51:25] etc.. And then I got the plate made. So the plate, you know, the wings on the four teeth. [00:51:30] Yeah. And then I bonded them on. Oh, um, [00:51:35] you know, the usual Panavia. And then I nipped the ends off, the roots off, and then that was [00:51:40] it. Okay. And I said, you know what? When you have the money, when your parents have the money, just we’ll sort it out properly. And [00:51:45] I’ve got an email five years later complaining five years later, what [00:51:50] I’ve done was nicking those two teeth. I nicked the laterals as well [00:51:55] to notch them. So she had her dentist tried to save them and, uh, [00:52:00] ended them. But those were failing as well. And, you know, I rang up and definitely [00:52:05] put my hands up and said, look, I made a mistake. Just sort this out. And they they [00:52:10] just dealt with it. That’s the worst, uh, mistake that I can, you know, think [00:52:15] of, uh, clinically that I’ve.

Payman Langroudi: I will accept.

Hap Gill: That.

Payman Langroudi: It’s nice [00:52:20] when it’s interesting. Yeah, it’s interesting, but nicking a tooth, man, with all [00:52:25] the treatments you’ve done. Yeah. Nicking a tooth can not be your worst story.

Hap Gill: No, [00:52:30] I mean no. All the treatments I’ve done. No, I can’t think of any sort of mistakes. [00:52:35] I mean, you know, yeah, sometimes treatment doesn’t work out, but it’s not actually a human [00:52:40] error. It’s, you know, stuff happens, but this is my error.

Payman Langroudi: You haven’t made a bigger mistake than nicking [00:52:45] the tooth next door to something.

Hap Gill: No, I can’t think of it.

Payman Langroudi: I’m going to leave you to reflect [00:52:50] on that.

Hap Gill: I can’t, I can’t think of anything. I’ve not filled the wrong tooth. I’ve not taken [00:52:55] the wrong tooth out.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. But like you made a decision. You know, you said be brave. Yeah. Okay. [00:53:00] You be brave. Sometimes that goes the wrong way. Yeah. So let’s talk about that. You did something. [00:53:05] You were being brave. It didn’t work out.

Hap Gill: I just cannot think [00:53:10] of anything. Honestly, I would, you know, honestly, I.

Payman Langroudi: It’ll [00:53:15] come.

Hap Gill: It’ll come. I don’t know what I mean. I mean, the thing is, [00:53:20] I’ve, um. You know, I’ve been doing this a long time. Or maybe the patience kind of [00:53:25] just kind of. That’s true. Politely sort of disappeared and went to see another dentist.

Payman Langroudi: I think, you know, after. [00:53:30] How long do you think it takes to get to that level of not your level of mastery, but the first. [00:53:35] Level of mastery, I’d say ten years.

Hap Gill: I would agree [00:53:40] with you. Ten years. Um, and the other thing is payment. You got you got to [00:53:45] be in the same practice. You’ve got to see your patients come back. That’s really, really important.

Payman Langroudi: Think about that. [00:53:50] Tell me about treatment modalities. I mean, surely during the, um, Rosenthal days, you were [00:53:55] cutting veneers that then came back even, let’s call it 15 years later, [00:54:00] with failure and veneers, failure tends to tends to be sort of a [00:54:05] staining failure.

Hap Gill: The funny thing is I there [00:54:10] were teeth being prepped that should not have been prepped. It was ortho that they [00:54:15] really needed. Yeah. Um, and.

Payman Langroudi: Not that adults were accepting training.

Hap Gill: Textbooks. [00:54:20] They weren’t. They weren’t they weren’t accepting it. So, um, [00:54:25] yeah, we, I mean, I, I’ve done the thousands of veneers over the years and, you know, [00:54:30] there is a really steep learning curve. And yes, we had. Excuse [00:54:35] me. Um, we had, um, you know, endo flare ups, um, here [00:54:40] and there. Um, but.

Payman Langroudi: I’m interested in this thing in the same practice for a long time [00:54:45] thing, there weren’t mistakes. But what things did you learn by seeing your own patients work? [00:54:50]

Hap Gill: Oh. Come back. So it was. It was things like, [00:54:55] um, it was, it was teeth where, you know, you were [00:55:00] heavily prepping the teeth. And a few years down the road they become non vital. And then [00:55:05] at the time you think you should really have sort of effectively done the endo on this tooth. [00:55:10] Uh, there were things like sort of when you were being really heroic on heavily filled teeth. [00:55:15] Yeah. Where you should have, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Pull something.

Hap Gill: Yeah. Put a post [00:55:20] in there. Uh, on endodontics, it was mainly endodontic teeth. And [00:55:25] the teeth kind of came off in there in their cause. Um, it was mainly that [00:55:30] kind of thing. Um, and you have a patients also, um, [00:55:35] that suddenly develop caries between the teeth. Um, that was, [00:55:40] that was another one. We’ve got one at the moment where we did the veneers. Maybe around about. [00:55:45] Uh, well, actually, that was a full mouth case about ten years ago. And for [00:55:50] personal reasons, you’re not looking after himself. And now he’s got caries between each tooth, and he’s [00:55:55] got perio issues, things like that. But I think I must have done an okay job [00:56:00] if most of the veneers are still there. Most of the crowns are still there. Yeah. [00:56:05] Or as I said, you know, maybe it’s that they’ve just kind of moved and and not, not come [00:56:10] back. But the thing is, you know, you’re you’re going to do stuff that doesn’t work. You know, [00:56:15] implants don’t always work, you know? And, uh, you know, being [00:56:20] at the same practice, I think one of the things that [00:56:25] you have.

Hap Gill: I’m not sure whether you can relate to this, but it’s kind of there’s [00:56:30] this like this family trust, this bond that you have with patients. Of course. Um, [00:56:35] and then, you know, if you do screw up, the patients are, um, [00:56:40] I’m not saying they’re going to forgive you, but, you know, one of the things that you should do is the right [00:56:45] thing. You know, and you know, whether it’s a year under the guarantee or whether it’s five [00:56:50] years later, you would know what the right thing to do is for your patient. For sure. Um, you know, we’ve had [00:56:55] associates left, um, and their work hasn’t failed, and [00:57:00] it’s sort of 3 or 5 years down the rent. It’s on me. I mean, I’m not going to chase the associate for it. I’m just [00:57:05] going to redo it, and that’s that’s absolutely fine. That’s just the way that I am. Mhm. Um, [00:57:10] you know, I think one of the beauties of being in the same place for [00:57:15] generations is, is that trust and that relationship you have. Uh.

Payman Langroudi: We [00:57:20] can’t let you go without talking about occlusion. You know, I, I’d like a [00:57:25] couple of sort of aha moments, you know, one, 1 or 2, your [00:57:30] own aha moments and occlusion. And 1 or 2 that, you know, you’ve talked to so many dentists [00:57:35] about occlusion things that most dentists didn’t know, or things that sort of tweak someone’s [00:57:40] understanding of occlusion because it’s such a giant subject. And it’s a very unfair question. [00:57:45] Yeah, it’s a giant subject, but at the same time, it isn’t [00:57:50] rocket science, right?

Hap Gill: Yeah. I think one of the things that I, um, [00:57:55] the aha moment was when I really understood anterior guidance. [00:58:00] Um, not necessarily canine or group or whatever. Just make sure that it’s smooth. [00:58:05] And, you know, I’ll give you an example. We talked about bonding earlier. You know, the [00:58:10] sort of the the the upper right one distal angle you put a composite on, it [00:58:15] just keeps on chipping. Yeah. It just keeps on chipping. You don’t know what the hell’s going on. And then, um, [00:58:20] of course you go to pinky. You think you can cure cancer when you come back? One of the things that you do [00:58:25] learn is about, um, anterior guidance, which I think is more important [00:58:30] than than basically getting all the teeth to touch the teeth. Touch is important, of course. [00:58:35] Um, but one of the, one of the, um, things [00:58:40] about smooth interior guidance and these composites and these crowns that were chipping [00:58:45] was basically they were the patient was guiding and then getting beyond [00:58:50] the canine point. And there was a sudden thump like that. It was a crossover [00:58:55] point. So one of the things that I was not checking was what happens beyond which, which teeth do they [00:59:00] land on once they go beyond that? So you’re doing it? I’m trying it.

Payman Langroudi: You’re doing it.

Hap Gill: So. [00:59:05] And then and then of course I’m looking. So once I got this after [00:59:10] pain, um, pancreatitis. Radar, you know that something’s switched on. So I’m looking. [00:59:15] And then, of course, you know, these composites and these crowns are chipping you. [00:59:20] The patients are struggling to to to to to get how [00:59:25] that canine and when they get when they go across that it’s just suddenly going on the other side. So if you imagine [00:59:30] that’s a canine. Yeah. It’s struggling this steep guidance and then it gets the other side and it’s doing [00:59:35] that.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of force.

Hap Gill: Yeah. And then and then it all bashes on the front there. Okay. So it’s [00:59:40] I think anterior guidance, um, the pitch and the bevel of the [00:59:45] incisors, making sure that everything’s all smooth. I taught jazz that it was blown away, so. [00:59:50] Oh, my God, my composites are going to work now. Um, so again, you know, just looking at the [00:59:55] sort of the, the sort of, uh, microscopic, the micro anatomy of the teeth [01:00:00] in creating smooth sort of, um, um, you know, as [01:00:05] opposed to a square in size or ledger. It’s just sort of just smoothing those ends off so you can kind of [01:00:10] get that smooth sort of guidance across. So hopefully that makes sense to you.

[BOTH]: Yeah. [01:00:15] Yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know I love I love you know the idea that you know that form follows function [01:00:20] sort of you know, the reason why the smile.

[BOTH]: Is the smile.

Payman Langroudi: Is.

[BOTH]: Really.

Hap Gill: Good. [01:00:25]

[BOTH]: Looking to.

Hap Gill: Uh, work well as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, unless, of [01:00:30] course, it’s the common mistake of where we were talking about composite bonding. Yeah. Someone’s got a few chipped [01:00:35] teeth, and the dentist just fixes those.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Hap Gill: And [01:00:40] why are they chipping?

[BOTH]: Why are they chipping?

Payman Langroudi: Chipping and.

[BOTH]: Much.

Payman Langroudi: Much weaker than [01:00:45] tooth.

[BOTH]: Raising.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it is going to break.

Hap Gill: Yeah. Composite bonding is. [01:00:50] I mean, composite resin restorations. Uh, I know it’s been branded as a composite bonding now, but it’s [01:00:55] a wonderful material. But, you know, you can’t just go slapping [01:01:00] this stuff on willy nilly. Um, as I’m sure you’ve seen on.

[BOTH]: Yeah. [01:01:05]

Hap Gill: On your feet.

Payman Langroudi: What about other things in occlusion that that dentists kind of [01:01:10] that when you talk to a dental, when you explain it to a dentist, it kind of switches their [01:01:15] mind and understanding.

Hap Gill: I think these are real, simple principles. One [01:01:20] is smooth interior guidance. The other thing is getting properties properly [01:01:25] seated condyles in the central relation position. And classically you [01:01:30] may have one tip is check for interferences. Okay, so [01:01:35] get the patient into an arc of closure and which tooth is [01:01:40] which tooth hitting first okay. Especially important when you’re prepping [01:01:45] that tooth because if you’ve got rid of that interference the condyles are going to see. [01:01:50] So all the teeth are going to be touching more evenly. And guess what? Your crown [01:01:55] is going to be high when you come to fit it because you’ve lost that clearance and you always blame that. [01:02:00]

Payman Langroudi: So that’s the seven generally right?

Hap Gill: Seven. Yeah. Premolars as well. [01:02:05]

Payman Langroudi: He really really oh really.

Hap Gill: It happens in.

[BOTH]: I remember.

Hap Gill: As well. In sevens [01:02:10] you can get um horizontal slide in premolars. It’s kind of more of sort [01:02:15] of a lateral. Yeah. Lateral side really. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I had.

Hap Gill: No idea. And then, you know, how many, [01:02:20] um. You know any dentists that are listening to this? You know, premolars, the [01:02:25] virgin upper, uh, first premolar, vertical fracture. You [01:02:30] know, a lot of times you will see a wear facet on it. You [01:02:35] know, it’s it’s, you know, and that could be contributing. So it’s really anterior guidance [01:02:40] and just check for first point of contact if there’s any, you know, you know new patient comes in recall [01:02:45] exam. Just a little bit of sort of you know checking um a couple of things [01:02:50] like that. And then, you know, the, um, you know, and [01:02:55] again, they taught us, you know, in panky. Just start introducing a few of these concepts [01:03:00] to your patients. Otherwise, you know, your patient. What the hell is he up to? Just do a little bit, you know, at [01:03:05] a time, and then you. And then it’s part of your system, part of your examination.

Payman Langroudi: And do [01:03:10] you follow the panky ideas regarding sort of [01:03:15] breaking it to a patient that they might you might have to do full mouth dentistry compared.

Hap Gill: To [01:03:20] I mean, one tooth that is kind of like panky. Um, it’s [01:03:25] not all about full mouth, you know. It’s not. It’s not a [01:03:30] cult. Uh, you know, a lot of people think.

Payman Langroudi: People love it, man. I think that’s that’s a great [01:03:35] thing, right? Yeah. And the fact that they talk about personal development.

Hap Gill: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the thing is, [01:03:40] I mean, you’re starting lectures at eight. Sorry. 745. Yeah. And [01:03:45] then your break for lunch, you’ve probably finished about six, a couple of hours off, and then you’re in the labs [01:03:50] grinding on teeth or splints or you’re in sort of group discussions and you’re completely [01:03:55] immersed in it. Um, and one of the things they do, you know, um, stress [01:04:00] is, as we were talking about earlier on, just talk to your patient like you [01:04:05] would do a family member. Give them the opportunity. Tell them that there’s [01:04:10] a whole bunch of stuff going on in your mouth. You’re not just doing your BP and then charting. Which amalgams. [01:04:15]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, would you say, look, if a dentist isn’t aware of all these things? Yeah, he might be [01:04:20] guilty of supervised neglect of that breakdown, that collapse of that bite. But would [01:04:25] you say the on the other side, there is overtreatment in some cases, like the the US way [01:04:30] of looking at all this is a bit different to the European way. Do you think that’s a thing or. No. [01:04:35]

Hap Gill: I don’t think I mean not not in the people, not certainly with the colleagues that [01:04:40] I hang out with. No.

Payman Langroudi: But in the US they tend to prep way earlier don’t they. [01:04:45] And there’s this almost idea of prep it while you can, while there’s still enough tooth there.

Hap Gill: Oh [01:04:50] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And over here we kind of wait for things to break before we prep them and so on. Yeah. So [01:04:55] that can that way of thinking can.

Hap Gill: Lead you into, I think is I do know [01:05:00] what you’re saying. You know, you’ve got there’s a, there’s a I don’t know, let’s just say an upper for the, you know, a [01:05:05] cusp has pinged off, um, and what you want to do, you want to just replace that crown. You [01:05:10] want to do customer coverage on that tooth or is it other stuff going on. But you’ve got to have that knowledge. You’ve [01:05:15] got to have that radar switched on that, you know, there could be other [01:05:20] things that are happening. Um, maybe it’s insurance based. While [01:05:25] why they have more of the sort of extensive dentistry done over there, maybe [01:05:30] it’s a legacy of the NHS and people still have that mindset over here. But the thing is, if you’ve got [01:05:35] that knowledge, it could be, you know, just doing that crown could be neglect. [01:05:40] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You know, they may need more work. They’ll they [01:05:45] may say no to you. They may say no. You know, no to your treatment plan. But at least you’ve got you’ve [01:05:50] had that conversation. You’ve given the opportunity that there’s there’s other stuff going on. And if [01:05:55] we just treat this you’re only going to be back. I mean, all my sort of rehabilitative. [01:06:00] Well, actually, most of it is done on my patients. I planted a seed on at [01:06:05] some point in the past. And then, you know, it’s kind of they’ll say happy now is the time. [01:06:10] You know, the kids have finished uni or, you know, they paid off their mortgage [01:06:15] or whatever. Um, you know, it’s that you’ve got to have that conversation. [01:06:20] If you can see it, you’ve got to tell the patient.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And [01:06:25] so when you think of your biggest case, you’ve done well. What comes to mind? What [01:06:30] kind of case is that for mouth rehab.

Hap Gill: Um, so I would say. I [01:06:35] would say it’s probably my [01:06:40] patient told me he doesn’t mind me sharing the story. Um, [01:06:45] so. He was involved in an RTA. [01:06:50] So he’s one of these, uh, triathlete type, uh, [01:06:55] people. He’s got ten grand. Bike head down is bombing it around sort of the corner [01:07:00] in, um, Petersham, which is the next town to, uh, Richmond. [01:07:05] And a van pulled out in front of him, and he went headfirst Us and [01:07:10] he had all sorts of injuries. He’d lost teeth [01:07:15] as lying on the road. He broke his jaw in a few places. Um, [01:07:20] broken a rib. It’s severed his penis as well. But the [01:07:25] only thing he. When he tells the story, the only thing you think of was missing was laying in bed for a week. And the only thing [01:07:30] I could think of was his missing teeth. So, um, you know, we always [01:07:35] start at the beginning examination. What’s the starting point? I know what it’s going to end look like at the end, [01:07:40] but this is a starting position. So how are we going to get these teeth fitting together? So [01:07:45] I mean, the surgeon did a in a great job putting the teeth back together. But there [01:07:50] was bits of jawbone missing. So he had open bites and symmetry. So [01:07:55] um the starting point and we know what the end point is. How [01:08:00] are we going to work it out?

Payman Langroudi: How long did it take?

Hap Gill: It took me about 3 or [01:08:05] 4 years to do so. We did everything, you know, we did trial equilibration, so we did. Um, [01:08:10] I did three sets of mounted models. So one was purely [01:08:15] if we removed his wisdom teeth, well, his teeth meet together. One was purely additive. [01:08:20] Um, and there was a sort of like, a bit of both. We [01:08:25] we ended up doing, uh, we didn’t want ortho author would have benefit, but he didn’t [01:08:30] ortho. So it ended up being purely additive. And then where are we going to get the bone from? So, [01:08:35] uh, what I found really interesting for, um, Tom was we actually, [01:08:40] I worked with a maxillofacial surgeon, went into the operating theatre in, uh, [01:08:45] Kingston. So, you know, he was taking bits of iliac crest out, putting [01:08:50] it into his, um, onto his jaw. And, you know, a [01:08:55] few months later, I put the implants in, and then we restored him. But, you know, he was in long [01:09:00] term temporaries. Thumbs up for the smile and the occlusion. Um, and then [01:09:05] I think we must have done that. Just [01:09:10] before I opened the practice in 2008 and we’re [01:09:15] cemented his lower bridge, we were cementing them on in those days a couple of times, but [01:09:20] that’s the only maintenance he’s required in all that time. Um, so, you know, that’s [01:09:25] probably the biggest case, um, most complex one [01:09:30] that, you know, I, I’ve done. But, you know, we’ve got like, you know, just as you know, it’s just as rewarding [01:09:35] doing, um, I tell another story.

Hap Gill: A [01:09:40] patient of mine came in with her mum about [01:09:45] 20 years ago, and I never forget what the the [01:09:50] mum said to me. Not the not the daughter. So the mum and daughter, as the mum said can [01:09:55] you help us not can you help her. Is can you help us. Because the girl was getting bullied [01:10:00] and so when she had missing lateral, the other one was lateral, she had a diastema, [01:10:05] so I wasn’t doing that much also. So that was referred to [01:10:10] an orthodontist who put the teeth where they’re supposed to be. And now [01:10:15] the. And then I did some veneers and a, uh, [01:10:20] zirconia resin bonding bridge back in the day. Probably on the first one in the universe. I [01:10:25] know, I know, but the thing is, again, being brave, you know, I thought, you know, let me just do it. And it’s. And and [01:10:30] again, it’s still there. Yeah. Um, and then now. You [01:10:35] know, from being this timid thing, she is, you know, she bounces [01:10:40] into the practice with a lot of confidence and she’s actually become a counsellor for sort of goes [01:10:45] around schools and bullying and sort of drugs and all that kind of thing. So I found [01:10:50] I, you know, we didn’t do a lot physically to her teeth, but that made a huge difference. So I find [01:10:55] this really rewarding as well as a complete sort of full mouth.

Payman Langroudi: The one that you had the most sort of [01:11:00] effect on? Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. What comes to mind if I say what was the best lecture you’ve ever been to? [01:11:05]

Hap Gill: Oh my goodness. I know you asked me this an hour ago, and I was thinking the best lecture [01:11:10] I’ve ever been on. The best couple of days. Um, [01:11:15] the lecture, the course is Frank Speer, um, [01:11:20] at the Pankey Institute. So it wasn’t Pankey, but he basically did [01:11:25] his course at, uh, at the pancreas. He spent two days on his mistakes.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:11:30] nice.

Hap Gill: So. And this is, like, this incredible [01:11:35] titan of dentistry. Um. And he spent two years, [01:11:40] uh, two days on his mistakes. And I probably learned more on that. And [01:11:45] it was inspirational. And he kept saying, be brave, be brave. And one of the mistakes [01:11:50] was on a dentist, actually, that he did. And again, [01:11:55] he did it. It was it was sort of T-2. He was being overambitious of [01:12:00] where he should have done more build ups and that kind of thing. Uh, or he missed something [01:12:05] during the occlusal exam. Um, but that is by far and away the [01:12:10] best. Um, a couple of days I spent sort of listening to anyone. [01:12:15]

Payman Langroudi: You’ve been on so many courses, but is there one that you haven’t been [01:12:20] on yet and you’re desperate to.

Hap Gill: Oh, [01:12:25] you know, this this probably sounds a little bit. Sort of. I do want to learn about Tad’s. [01:12:30] You know, I just want to up my game regarding, um, Invisalign. I [01:12:35] mean, I’ve been doing Invisalign since the early days, 2004, and it’s a different animal [01:12:40] to. Yeah, 20 years ago. Yeah, yeah. And I love doing it. I still work with the orthodontist. [01:12:45] Um, but, you know, I love ortho. Um, I love that. Um, the banter [01:12:50] I have with that sort of demographic. 20s and 30s. Um, maybe [01:12:55] mentally on that age. Um, so I think one of the things, I mean, it’s just simple. I want to learn [01:13:00] tabs with Invisalign.

Payman Langroudi: The brand?

Hap Gill: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Hap Gill: You [01:13:05] know, it’s it’s funny, there’s, um, you [01:13:10] know, there’s the plastic. There’s the plastic matter. I think it does [01:13:15] a little bit. Um, you know, I love their software, and they’ve been around for many, many years. Of course, the [01:13:20] most important thing is the clinician that is planning and is monitoring, [01:13:25] uh, the treatment. But I’m still very much with, uh, Invisalign. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Good. [01:13:30] And if I say what’s your favourite dental resource?

Hap Gill: My [01:13:35] favourite dental resource.

Payman Langroudi: Book, podcast. Whatever someone [01:13:40] you.

Hap Gill: Follow is probably Drew Shah’s brain. [01:13:45] Drew. Yeah. Drew’s brain. Uh, I love the community [01:13:50] that he has built. Um, you know, we’ve got a team day, [01:13:55] uh, coming up, and I was kind of scratching my head with a few exercises to do and [01:14:00] I messaged him. And on a Sunday he got back to me with a whole kind of essay of, you know, sort of [01:14:05] exercises.

Payman Langroudi: Dude reads a.

Hap Gill: Lot. Oh my goodness. And he and he, you know, pings over a lot [01:14:10] of books, you know, recommendations to me. But I mean, he is that is a big [01:14:15] resource for me. I don’t go to that many courses. I never [01:14:20] ever were talking about the the Dental show earlier on. I try and avoid those places at all costs. I [01:14:25] kind of, I rather just hang out with the with the family on my weekends.

Payman Langroudi: But you [01:14:30] still, you’re very up with technology. Yeah, right. So I guess Dental shows are kind of one [01:14:35] place where you can see technology. Yeah, yeah. Did you manage to stay up with technology [01:14:40] because you were a geek?

Hap Gill: I think there’s definitely a geeky, um, side [01:14:45] of me.

Payman Langroudi: Um, because I had Basil Mizrahi, for instance. Right. I had Basil [01:14:50] Mizrahi. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And he said, look, I, I can deliver. [01:14:55] Yeah, yeah, I know what I can deliver. Yeah. And, um. Even though it hurt him to [01:15:00] say he’s now becoming a dinosaur. Yeah. He didn’t want to digitise. Yeah, he’s got he’s [01:15:05] got your guitar in the practice. You do? Yeah. Takes care of that sort of thing. But he didn’t want [01:15:10] him. That’s almost right. Yeah. Yeah. So are you always looking for improvements and [01:15:15] particularly tech improvements?

Hap Gill: The thing is, you always kind of, you know, online Facebook, uh, various [01:15:20] groups. Um, there’s there’s always kind of everyone’s kind of looking at, you know, [01:15:25] everyone’s kind of looking at the new stuff and sort of posting information. So there’s [01:15:30] a little bit of a cynic in me. Okay. Um, but I do. And [01:15:35] we’ve got three ideas of the practice, you know, and we use it on in exams, hygiene [01:15:40] as well as sort of, you know, restorative and.

Payman Langroudi: The new internal.

Hap Gill: Cameras. Yeah. It’s, you [01:15:45] know, and and the, I mean, the face, um, [01:15:50] simulation software is incredible these days as well. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I.

Hap Gill: Ii. [01:15:55] Tarot? Oh, really? Yeah. I mean, about a year ago, I kind of have to have to sort of look at it first [01:16:00] before I kind of flip the screen around to the patient because it’s like, oh, that’s nanny McPhee. That [01:16:05] ain’t my patient. So, you know, but it’s it’s really good. Um, at the moment. And that’s [01:16:10] all, you know. That’s all part of their system. But I’m always going to try [01:16:15] and, uh, keep up to date.

Payman Langroudi: You’re kind of coming [01:16:20] to the end of our time. Unfortunately, I could talk for so much longer with you. Um, but let’s [01:16:25] start with the fantasy dinner party. Three guests. [01:16:30]

Hap Gill: Three guests.

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive.

Hap Gill: So, um, [01:16:35] first was Larry David.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Hap Gill: Larry. David. I’m sure you’ve seen kerb.

Payman Langroudi: I love.

Hap Gill: It. [01:16:40] Um, I never really, really, really got into Seinfeld, but, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Me either. Kerb.

Hap Gill: Kerb. Oh [01:16:45] my.

Payman Langroudi: Goodness.

Hap Gill: This guy has no filter. And then, you know, the thing [01:16:50] is, all of the characters in the show play themselves. Yeah. And this is I mean, the [01:16:55] thing is, you know, um, that they’re filtering the headgear. That isn’t the right [01:17:00] thing to say. That is the right thing to do. He just does it.

Payman Langroudi: The Palestinian chicken shop.

Hap Gill: Yeah. The palace [01:17:05] is a chicken shop. And, I mean, there are so many. I mean, there are so many things, you know, in it. And [01:17:10] he takes the Mickey out, the Jewish as well. He hires a crappy, uh, Jewish [01:17:15] lawyer because he’s he’s a Jew. And, you know, it’s just it’s just so funny. [01:17:20] So I think he’ll be, you know, uh, fun company. Uh, second one [01:17:25] is, um, I had to think about this. So that [01:17:30] one is my dad’s uncle. Uh, he died. I think it was about 100 years old. [01:17:35] Um, very, very interesting man. The thing about him, I want him [01:17:40] there because he always used to tell amazing stories. He took a boat from. [01:17:45] I mean, he’s a village boy. And it took about. Landed in New York in 1928. [01:17:50]

Payman Langroudi: I boat from India?

Hap Gill: Yeah. From India. Took about six months in 1928. And he used to [01:17:55] tell us stories about the Wall Street crash. And, um, in those days, you know, there was segregation [01:18:00] and the blacks and the and the Asians and the Browns, you know, they weren’t getting jobs [01:18:05] unless, like servants, that kind of thing. But, um, his first job. Yeah. [01:18:10] The Henry Ford gave me his first job. So and there’s lots of stories about dinner [01:18:15] parties with Henry and that kind of thing. And there’s there’s a, um, a photo [01:18:20] of, um, Henry and lots of black and brown faces [01:18:25] around him. And Henry sort of had laid out this sort of, um, this kind of like [01:18:30] everyone was in tuxedos. And I’m sure this is the first time all of those black and brown faces [01:18:35] had ever worn a tuxedo in their life. And, and, you know, um, ah, [01:18:40] uh, my dad’s mama, G, as we used to call him, to tell lots of wonderful, um, [01:18:45] stories regarding that he used to after the Wall Street crash, you know, Indian [01:18:50] boy reading about people throwing themselves off these buildings. He was thinking, what’s what’s going [01:18:55] on? What’s going on? So he actually started investing in shares. Well, in the 30s, and I remember [01:19:00] when he used to come over in the summer holidays from the US. Um, he’ll be sitting there. [01:19:05] Um, you know, just looking at his, you see, you couldn’t read, [01:19:10] um, couldn’t hear or see very well. But he was, uh, actually, when we used to go there in the [01:19:15] summer, he had a magnifying glass. He was scanning the paper at all the share prices. So he [01:19:20] was. I mean, I could listen to him for for hours.

Payman Langroudi: Did he pass [01:19:25] away when you were a kid?

Hap Gill: Um, I was probably in my 20s. We [01:19:30] had. We had a surprise party when he was 19, and he nearly killed over when he walked into the pool.

Payman Langroudi: And. [01:19:35]

Hap Gill: He thought, oh, my God, not now, not now. And I think the final, the final guest, um. [01:19:40] I where we used to live in Richmond, where [01:19:45] we parked my car. Ah, ah, the fence. They’re backed onto [01:19:50] this guy’s, uh, garden. Um, and it’s funny because, [01:19:55] um, every time we heard the lawn mower, we’d all kind of, you know, the boys would get excited, and we were sort [01:20:00] of run to sort of peer over the garden fence. But it was never there. It was David Attenborough. [01:20:05]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Hap Gill: So. And, you know, the funny thing is, live [01:20:10] right next door to us. I never met him.

Payman Langroudi: Well.

Hap Gill: I used to [01:20:15] see him kind of pop in and out of the Jeep or getting into his car. I never met him, but his brother, who used to live. [01:20:20] Uh, Richard, who used to live around the corner from the practice. I’ve spoken to him twice. He used [01:20:25] to, you know, walk up and down the river with a river with his cane. So I [01:20:30] saw more of his brother. Met him a couple of times compared to, um, [01:20:35] David. But the thing about David, I know it’s kind of you’ve kind of grown [01:20:40] up with that voice and that kind of. I mean, he could be. He could have a dung beetle sort [01:20:45] of crawling on him.

Payman Langroudi: He could be prime minister.

Hap Gill: Yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean, the thing.

Payman Langroudi: Is universally.

Hap Gill: Loved and [01:20:50] then universally loved. Yeah. It transcends generations. My boys, you [01:20:55] know, when they hear his voice, they just like we were watching a blue planet again yesterday. And you were just like. They were just [01:21:00] sort of sitting. He looked up from his YouTube and we were watching it. And the thing is, you know, he’s [01:21:05] he’s in his 90s. He’s seen so many changes and, you know, and it will be nice [01:21:10] to listen to him. But you know what I would really like to do with David at [01:21:15] a dinner party is give him a little bit of tequila and get him getting really talking. And, [01:21:20] um, I can’t say, you know, and then, um, I would have my wife there, of course, [01:21:25] as well for, um.

Payman Langroudi: And there’s only three.

Hap Gill: Yes. Yeah. Well, on this [01:21:30] occasion.

Payman Langroudi: Someone’s gonna do.

Hap Gill: Someone’s gonna do the cooking. You know. So. No. No, [01:21:35] seriously. We love cooking. So it’s, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, we too. We see. And [01:21:40] the final questions around. It’s a deathbed question on your deathbed. [01:21:45] But surrounded by your loved ones. Three pieces of advice.

Hap Gill: Three [01:21:50] pieces of advice. I think one of the things [01:21:55] you know. Any sort of. Sane [01:22:00] and loving parent, you kind of almost don’t want to be without your kids. [01:22:05] But one of the things that you need to do is to actually get them [01:22:10] ready for the big bad world, get them actually used to not being, you know, in your [01:22:15] in your home anymore. So one of the bits of advice that I would definitely [01:22:20] give them is always do [01:22:25] the best job that you can, the best whatever you want to, whatever task you want to do, do the best [01:22:30] that you can, whether you’re going to you’re sweeping the driveway or anything professional. So, you [01:22:35] know, do things to the best of your ability. The other thing is really, um, [01:22:40] don’t take advice from people [01:22:45] that have a negative energy that don’t actually know what they’re talking about. So [01:22:50] someone giving business advice has never had a business. That’s one of the things as well. And people do have a mindset [01:22:55] about money, and money is bad. And I’ve had lots of sort of really terrible advice [01:23:00] regarding that over the years. So one of the things is, um, you know, [01:23:05] keep away from people with negative energy, you know, surround yourself with people that [01:23:10] are, um, your peers or someone that you kind of aspire [01:23:15] to. Um, I think those are, um, [01:23:20] the main things really, you know, be be kind, be honest, try [01:23:25] and do you know the best that you can. I mean, our practice ethos, um, and we [01:23:30] sort of genuinely, genuinely believe it. And it’s part of our induction is, you know, um, [01:23:35] take care of the patient, you know, uh, take care of your [01:23:40] colleagues, take care of the community, See, but never, ever forget to take care of yourself as well. [01:23:45] So again, that’s kind of all encompassing, kind of, you know. Uh, my advice [01:23:50] I would give, uh, on my deathbed, do your best. Take a good, good advice. [01:23:55]

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure, man.

[VOICE]: This is [01:24:00] Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with [01:24:05] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:24:10] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:24:15] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a [01:24:20] huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and [01:24:25] what our guests had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get [01:24:30] some value out of it, think about subscribing, and if you would share this with [01:24:35] a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And [01:24:40] don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast has been brought to you by Mini Smile Makeover Mini Smile Makeovers, a two day anterior [00:00:05] composite course led by the extraordinary talented doctor Depeche Palmer. Two [00:00:10] days of full on, hands on composite training, purely focussed [00:00:15] on anterior work. Composite veneers, polishing, finishing, shade matching. You also [00:00:20] get a free enlightened kit. Plus, we have a great time and a party in the middle to find out the [00:00:25] dates. Mini smile makeover. Now let’s get back to the podcast.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is dental Leaders. [00:00:35] The podcast where you get to go one on one [00:00:40] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome Mahmoud Ibrahim onto the podcast. I’ve been [00:00:55] looking forward to this podcast for a long, long time and people will know Mahmud mood as the [00:01:00] Occlusion Ninja from our friends [00:01:05] on the dental podcast. Mahmud’s been probably, uh, [00:01:10] the sort of, uh, occlusion guy behind the OB [00:01:15] course and a bunch of other courses that Jazz Gulati runs. Um, [00:01:20] super kind, nice guy. The kind of guy that every single person who meets you, Mahmood, has [00:01:25] such lovely things to say about you. Yeah. So really happy to have you. Well done for coming in finally. [00:01:30]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah, it’s been a it’s been on the cards for a while. Thanks so much for inviting me [00:01:35] and for the, the water and coffee.

Payman Langroudi: And let’s hope your buddy jazz is listening, because I’m [00:01:40] going to ask for a bunch of pearls, pearls, pearls.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Make it tangible.

Payman Langroudi: In [00:01:45] fact, I’ve decided they’re going to be called diamonds because they’re Dental Leaders diamonds. Take it up and it’s [00:01:50] going to be a d gonna be a pearl. Right. Um, around occlusion. [00:01:55] Um, because certainly that’s an area most of us struggle with. Um, but [00:02:00] man would give me the straight away. I know, I know, I know, it’s a bit unfair, [00:02:05] a bit unfair. What’s the one thing about occlusion? One thing that most dentists [00:02:10] don’t know that they really should. And then we’ll go into the specific parts. But [00:02:15] what comes to mind when I say that?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Um, okay. So, uh, you know, I, [00:02:20] I tend to say this to people who who, uh, are wondering whether they should come out on a collision [00:02:25] course or like, well, what does the collision really going to do for me? Mhm. Um, and it’s the [00:02:30] fact that inclusion plays a part in almost any type of dentistry you’re going to do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: And [00:02:35] more often than not, if you know a little bit about inclusion, you can make your work last a lot [00:02:40] longer because all inclusion is it’s about force management. Right. Um, the [00:02:45] mouth, the mathematics system, whatever you want to call articulatory system. There’s [00:02:50] there’s muscles working and therefore they are exerting some sort of force. [00:02:55] That force has to go somewhere, right? And you know, you got your joints sometimes can [00:03:00] get affected. The muscles can sometimes affect it get affected. Sometimes it’s the teeth. Sometimes it’s whatever you put on [00:03:05] or in the teeth. If you happen to have just done ten veneers on somebody, guess [00:03:10] what? Occlusion is going to be important. Making sure that those things last as long as possible. So, you [00:03:15] know, uh, occlusion is kind of like getting punched in the face in a way. There’s [00:03:20] only a few things you can do if you’re about to get punched in the face. You can either move out of the way. Uh, [00:03:25] so in occlusion terms, for me, that’s, you know, you keep your restorations out of harm’s way, and you can only really [00:03:30] do that if you’re dealing with 1 or 2 teeth. Um, but the other thing you can do is try and [00:03:35] roll with the punches. And a lot of learning occlusion principles is [00:03:40] essentially learning how to roll with the punches, roll with whatever the patient’s going to do with their [00:03:45] teeth, uh, because.

Payman Langroudi: Rather than kind of reorganising everything, is that what you. [00:03:50]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Still reorganise it?

Payman Langroudi: What do you mean by roll with the punches?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So, you know, there used to be a belief [00:03:55] that if you perfected someone’s occlusion.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, it’s like a textbook perfect. [00:04:00] Yeah.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: They will no longer grind their teeth. They will no longer do damage to your restorations. We now know that that’s [00:04:05] not fact. Okay? And that never really sat well with me anyway because I always thought, [00:04:10] well, you know, if if it’s the fact that you’ve got interferences that’s causing you to grind, [00:04:15] well, we know that 95% of people out there have interferences of some [00:04:20] kind, but not 95% of us grind our teeth. And the other thing is, if it’s the interference [00:04:25] is making you grind and you’re grinding the interferences away, shouldn’t [00:04:30] there get a point where you’ve ground the interference? Yeah, exactly. You’re gonna stop, right? If it doesn’t happen. [00:04:35] So we need to forget the idea of if you perfect the occlusion, the patient’s going to stop doing whatever it [00:04:40] is they’re doing. So what I mean when I say roll with the punches is you have to assume the patient’s going [00:04:45] to carry on the same behaviour. So how do you. Yeah. How do you plan your restorations, [00:04:50] the shapes of the restorations how they’re going to touch and for how long, [00:04:55] so that they can survive what the patient is going to do to it.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: And I think [00:05:00] part of the reason occlusion became so complicated [00:05:05] or dogmatic is a lot of the time. So we, you know, let’s say [00:05:10] we’re still in the era where it was, you know, if you get the occlusion perfect, [00:05:15] that patient will stop grinding their teeth. Right. What happened was a lot of people learned how to get the occlusion perfect. [00:05:20] Their patients didn’t break restorations as often as the people that didn’t do that. [00:05:25] And therefore you get confirmation bias. You get the fact that, oh, I perfected their occlusion. Yeah. Nothing broke. Therefore, [00:05:30] they have stopped grinding. In fact, what’s happened is the principles [00:05:35] that we apply to get a perfect occlusion also happen to be [00:05:40] very good at mitigating the effects of the forces that are still being applied. Okay. [00:05:45] So they still so the end product is the same. It’s just the reason you’re doing it is [00:05:50] different, right? I’m not doing it. So I stopped the patient grinding. I’m doing it because that design [00:05:55] creates the least amount of stress on my restorations, even though the patient [00:06:00] is still grinding.

Payman Langroudi: That was nature’s design to minimise things.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So [00:06:05] so here’s here’s where we start, like getting [00:06:10] into. I love biomimetic [00:06:15] dentistry. I love adhesive dentistry. I love all that. However, sometimes [00:06:20] we have to admit that our materials are not quite as good as what nature? [00:06:25] God, evolution, whatever you want to believe in gave us, [00:06:30] right? So I tend to build in certain, uh, [00:06:35] what’s the word like? Um, margins of [00:06:40] error or margins of safety within my restorative design so [00:06:45] that it’s not just, you know, I’m not taking a tooth and creating.

Payman Langroudi: The same thing again. [00:06:50]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: The same thing again? Yeah, because I know I’m using inferior materials. Yeah. Um, so [00:06:55] I’m going to create certain designs that maybe have a little bit of.

Payman Langroudi: Weaknesses [00:07:00] or whatever. Right.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Thicknesses, wiggle room. Maybe. I’m not as precise as I would like to pretend I am. So [00:07:05] building a little bit of margin for error. So that’s something, you know, we call it also frameworks [00:07:10] a margin of safety occlusion. So essentially it’s taking, uh, you know, inspiration from [00:07:15] like if you look at the building industry, you know, engineering, when they build a beam that [00:07:20] is supposed to withstand ten tons, they give you a beam [00:07:25] that can withstand, withstand 20 tons, right? But they just tell you to put ten tons on it. And that [00:07:30] difference is the margin of safety. So for me, I sort of apply the same [00:07:35] thought process to when it comes to occlusion. You know, I don’t want it so that if I am too tense [00:07:40] out, it will fail. I want to have a little bit of wiggle room.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Um, [00:07:45] so once you understand that really it truly is about force management. And [00:07:50] then your, you know, you learn some, uh, physics principles, [00:07:55] you know, and again, people say, oh, we’re not machines and yes, we’re not [00:08:00] machines. And I understand that we’re biological beings. You know, I’m not trying to simplify it and [00:08:05] say that we’re mechanistic, but when there [00:08:10] is a force being applied by muscle and that force is being applied onto a surface, [00:08:15] then the rules of physics are going to apply. And I think that’s partly why I gravitated [00:08:20] towards occlusions, because physics has always been a really.

Payman Langroudi: Your favourite.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Subject. Yeah. Me too. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:08:25] was all the sciences for me.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: That makes sense, right? Like, you can make deductions based on common [00:08:30] sense logic.

Payman Langroudi: While we’re there. What were there? Is there any way to stop people grinding?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: It [00:08:35] depends on whether there is a trigger that we can alter. [00:08:40] So there are some people who could be instance [00:08:45] could be airway issues. So if they’re having trouble breathing, there is [00:08:50] some theories that say that, you know, the mandible moves to try and open the airway. So if that is the case [00:08:55] and you sort out their airway issues then yeah, they might stop there. Uh, stop. Stop there [00:09:00] grinding. The problem is, though, you can’t guarantee it. [00:09:05] So I’m not going to rely on it. So even though I think okay, you know, go have a sleep study [00:09:10] comes back yet he’s got some, you know, sleep disordered breathing. We’ll put you on [00:09:15] whatever, you know, the CPAp or whatever it may be. I’m not then going to just assume, [00:09:20] okay, you’re not going to grind your teeth. So I’m going to put pretty thick, really thin edges, all that sort of stuff [00:09:25] everywhere. No I’m just I’m still going to try and minimise my risk as much as possible.

Payman Langroudi: But is there not [00:09:30] like a Botox injection or something.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So again, you know, it [00:09:35] can help. You’re going to try and decrease the amount of force the muscles can produce. Um, [00:09:40] Botox tends to be something obviously they need to do fairly regularly. [00:09:45] And then again, depending on that patient’s compliance, making sure, you know, if you do the Botox yourself, fine. [00:09:50] Great. Get them back in. Keep doing it. I don’t do it myself. Um, but yeah, you know, it’s it’s [00:09:55] again a great adjunct. Um, but kind of like, you [00:10:00] know, people say, well, you know, I’ll just do what I want. I’ll just give them a night guard. Mhm. Yeah. [00:10:05] But the problem is most people don’t wear that night guard and they don’t want to wear the night guard. Uh, people [00:10:10] who are in pain and they’re night guard helps the pain. They [00:10:15] will wear your night guard. They will wear every single night. Mhm. Um, but patients [00:10:20] aren’t in pain. It’s hard to get them to wear it. So again I [00:10:25] don’t want to rely on it purely. I’ll still give them one. Don’t get me wrong. Um, but [00:10:30] I’ll still build in certain design features that will help minimise [00:10:35] my time.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a night guard that itself reduces bruxism? Or is [00:10:40] it? Or is it just like a protective thing? Is there any evidence of that?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Um, [00:10:45] so. The the evidence at the moment [00:10:50] doesn’t necessarily favour one over the other. So you’ll [00:10:55] hear about, for example, an anterior mid stop appliance or essentially it’s a, it’s a guard [00:11:00] that has contact on the anterior teeth only here. Uh, you know, you get the sigh, you get the NTI [00:11:05] in the States. Whatever. Yeah. And the idea is that that knocks down the force of [00:11:10] the muscles. Okay. Through a sort of neurological feedback loop. But people still can’t grind [00:11:15] on it. Some people still can. And, you know, there’s a there’s a paper [00:11:20] I quote in, uh, in the course. I can’t remember the reference right now, but it showed [00:11:25] that even with anterior only contact, some, uh, [00:11:30] test subjects, you know, their muscle force decrease was only [00:11:35] down to 55% versus someone else that went down to 5%. So down [00:11:40] to 5% maximum someone else down to 55% [00:11:45] of maximum. Yeah, it’s a huge again discrepancy. So you can say, okay, I’m going to give you this [00:11:50] and your only appliance and it’s going to help take the muscle down, the muscle [00:11:55] force down. Fine. Uh, but on that person where it only takes it down by half, [00:12:00] I mean, if they started with massive chunky muscles, really [00:12:05] high muscle force, you’ve taken that down by half. It might still be strong enough to fracture [00:12:10] restorations. Right. Or someone else? Same muscle mass. The same muscle strength went [00:12:15] down to 5%. Yeah. Now, it might not be strong enough to fracture restorations. They’re very hard to [00:12:20] tell that before you’ve stuck your 10% veneers on. Yeah. So again.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:12:25] how long does that last that reduction. Again very.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Great point. You know. So again [00:12:30] we there is uh the research I’ve seen at least again [00:12:35] this is it’s relatively old now, but you’ll find that within about sort [00:12:40] of for three months or so on a I think [00:12:45] this one was on a full coverage appliance worn 24 over seven. So full coverage [00:12:50] appliance equilibrated into centre relation given to the patient. They wore it for three [00:12:55] months and they put them on the MGS every couple of weeks, then, you know, every month, etc.. And they found that the muscle force [00:13:00] went down to start with and it stayed down until you get to about [00:13:05] the three month mark and everything just adapts and the muscle force goes back up to where it [00:13:10] was, where it was. So that’s, you know, some people ask me like, how long do you put your patients into [00:13:15] provisionals for if you’re reorganising a case? Yeah, I’ll try and put them in for [00:13:20] 2 to 3 months. Why? Well, this seems as [00:13:25] good a reason as any, right? Uh, it seems, uh, it’s a good amount of time to [00:13:30] test things, but also, if there is a period of adaptation, um, then [00:13:35] I want it to happen while the patient is in provisionals and then see what they do afterwards.

Payman Langroudi: As far [00:13:40] as the epidemiology of it. Do we know what percentage of the population has [00:13:45] severe proxies at some point? What percentage? Brooks. Sometimes, [00:13:50] I mean, are we are we coming like? For instance, the question that constantly flexes [00:13:55] my mind. Does 100% of the population brooks something.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: At some.

Payman Langroudi: Point? [00:14:00]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: I think so. Or maybe not 100. Yeah, but I think it’s pretty high because, [00:14:05] you know, you’re it a lot of the [00:14:10] epidemiology. How do you say that word epidemiology. Yeah that one. Um [00:14:15] research is is based on self-reporting as well. Right. [00:14:20] So how many patients do we get in the chair that I can [00:14:25] clearly see the weather sets matching up in some weird, you know, positions and stuff. You clearly [00:14:30] do something. Well, they have no idea, right? That doesn’t mean they don’t do it. It just means [00:14:35] they don’t know. So again, how [00:14:40] many of those get missed in those in those bits of research? And the other thing is, it seems [00:14:45] that the older we get, the more likely we are to actually Brooks [00:14:50] during the day. So daytime Brooks.

Payman Langroudi: Is that.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Right? So then your night guard isn’t going [00:14:55] to help, right. Because they’re doing it, you know, while they’re watching TV or driving [00:15:00] to work or whatever it may be. So again, for me, it’s like [00:15:05] I look at the evidence that I can trust. And what is that that’s [00:15:10] on the teeth. So if I see a patient has ground their teeth down because [00:15:15] I can see where sets that match up, then I will assume [00:15:20] that they will continue to do so.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but you don’t know. That could have happened 20 years ago. [00:15:25]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: And it could happen again in five years time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So I [00:15:30] will assume.

Payman Langroudi: That, for instance, this first is very important in bleaching the current severe [00:15:35] bruxism. Is, for me, the number one most important [00:15:40] thing you need to look out for in a patient. Yeah, for tray whitening because it’s just ruined. [00:15:45] Straight whitening. Yeah, but current severe bruxism. What’s the best way is that. Is that a muscle examination. Because [00:15:50] a tooth examination you know, you’ve got some 21 year old who’s [00:15:55] grinding like hell, but there hasn’t ground for enough years to cause where [00:16:00] to happen. I mean, and then you say 21 year old amazing. Everything’s going to [00:16:05] go really well and then it’s a terrible case. Yeah.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: What about if they’re clenching? [00:16:10] Is that equally bad for the whitening?

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know, I guess.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: I.

Payman Langroudi: Guess it’s difficult to know for sure, but. [00:16:15] Yeah, probably.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Have you looked into Brookes checker?

Payman Langroudi: No.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So Brock’s checker is. It’s [00:16:20] like a it’s nearly like an Essex blank, but it’s thinner and it’s got this like dye, [00:16:25] this red dye on it. So you create a suck down right. And you give it to the patient in there where at night. [00:16:30] And essentially if they rub on it they’re going to rub away where the, you know, the red. And it’s [00:16:35] actually quite good at matching sort of their wear patterns and stuff. So it’s again [00:16:40] could be add it to your little package, you know, get that first see.

Payman Langroudi: Is it [00:16:45] custom made.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Or is it custom made. Yeah yeah yeah. But they’re cheap. They’re not expensive. They’re not [00:16:50] expensive. You get the blanks. Any lab can make it from scan. Very interesting though.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but a muscle examination [00:16:55] like that’s.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: What we.

Payman Langroudi: Teach. We we teach strong muscles, severe [00:17:00] current bruxism.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So or tongue examination. You know, a soft tissue examination for me. [00:17:05]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. So traditionally speaking tongue scalloping cheek ridging could be signs [00:17:10] of limiting. Yeah. Yeah. Again that could be muscle spasm. [00:17:15] It could be. But I mean it’s possible. It’s possible. So if [00:17:20] we had a way of definitely telling you know trust [00:17:25] me everybody would know about it by now because that’s like is probably the biggest, uh, factor [00:17:30] you want to consider when you’re, you know, doing treatment, like doing a rehab or doing some aesthetic [00:17:35] treatment. If you can get a 100% guaranteed answer to that question. Like [00:17:40] a lot of things would change. Um, but all of the I think you need to take all of [00:17:45] those things together. So look at the muscles. Yeah, look at the soft tissues. You know, is [00:17:50] there a sensitivity?

Payman Langroudi: Um, crack teeth, wear facets, all of that?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. Yeah. But [00:17:55] if if I’m going to commit to doing ten, 20 [00:18:00] units on a patient, and I see that there is where I will design [00:18:05] my restorations to try and mitigate for whatever is they do. Because [00:18:10] it doesn’t it doesn’t automatically mean my restorations are going to be [00:18:15] ten times uglier, right? Like the.

Payman Langroudi: Think of a couple of examples when you say what they do. So [00:18:20] you’re talking about different patterns of bruxism lead you to design your your restorations [00:18:25] differently. Right. Is that what you mean?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. In a nutshell.

Payman Langroudi: So to give me a couple of examples of the difference, [00:18:30] what do you do differently in different situations?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So if you see someone, for example, that has [00:18:35] wear just on the edges of their teeth, right. But they’re not a class three, they have a normal class [00:18:40] one incisor relationship they have over, yet they have a they have an overbite. But [00:18:45] the where is purely on their edges. Now there is again, [00:18:50] you’ll probably I don’t know, we might get a lot of pushback on this. You know, some people will say, okay, well [00:18:55] what’s going on is they’ve got an interference at the back and that is making them posture forward and [00:19:00] say on their front teeth, maybe, um, maybe it’s an airway issue. They’re [00:19:05] coming forward to open their airway. Um, maybe, uh, they have joint problems. [00:19:10] So they’re getting off the desk and or getting, you know, getting onto the desk by by moving forward. [00:19:15] Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe.

Payman Langroudi: But for whatever reason, they’re coming.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: For the reason they’re doing it. Yeah, right. Unless [00:19:20] you’re in a fix. The reason. So you’re going to take every single patient who’s got some [00:19:25] wear on the edge of their teeth and either equilibrate them or put them through a sleep study. [00:19:30] Or, you know, get the TMJ sorted. Which if [00:19:35] you can. Great. Um, but what you need to accept is the chancellor. They’re still going [00:19:40] to do it. Right. And with some patients, I think it’s just a habit. You know, especially when I see it on just maybe [00:19:45] two teeth. Right. That’s something they’re doing and.

Payman Langroudi: You know, concentrating or something, you know. [00:19:50]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: And and this is, again, just my theory, I think, you know, when you see that, just [00:19:55] check the inside of their lip.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Honestly, 90% of the time I find that the lip is like all [00:20:00] chewed up and they’re just.

Payman Langroudi: Habitually they’re.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Literally sitting there. And [00:20:05] to chew your lip you need to bring your inside ledges together. Yeah. Guess what. Doing that for you [00:20:10] know exactly. It’s going to wear the teeth down. So now you see that where right [00:20:15] now you’re going to restore it, right? You’re going to use your Palmer. [00:20:20]

Payman Langroudi: Which.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Material.

Payman Langroudi: Which thickness and so on. Right.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. Thickness is probably [00:20:25] in terms of especially composite is a big factor. Yeah. Um, you know what am I going to put on [00:20:30] that incisal edge? It’s not going to be my microfilm. It might not place [00:20:35] little melons. I might not place all my pictures and tints and stuff, you know, and [00:20:40] I’ll make it thick enough. But also look at the lower teeth. What you don’t want to do is make all the top [00:20:45] teeth pretty. And I see a lot of these cases where they’ve made the top teeth pretty. But look at the lower teeth. No, like jagged and [00:20:50] really sharp bits sticking up. Yeah, I guess what that sharp bit is going to be like a nail. And as soon as that [00:20:55] patient goes to chew their lip again, they’re gonna, you know, and it might not be straight away. Right. [00:21:00] The like well, I did it last week and it’s fine. You know, those sharp edges don’t create the crack immediately. [00:21:05] Right. They can create like a micro crack. And then as they do it more and more, or [00:21:10] they bite into a fork or or a carrot or whatever, right. Those cracks will propagate. And [00:21:15] then over time, that will chip. So, you know, we are very good at saying to [00:21:20] patients now, you know, uh, make sure you budget for [00:21:25] repairs and replacements. Um, you know, we’ll be repairing [00:21:30] 1 to 2 edges every 1 to 2 years. Budget this much money, whatever. And. Great. [00:21:35] And you, you want you want to consent the patient for what’s going to be involved 100%. But [00:21:40] I think a lot of the time, a little bit of money curing of those lower edges [00:21:45] makes a big difference.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And I think, you know, the minimally invasive [00:21:50] kind of revolution has meant that the likes of anyone who [00:21:55] qualified in the last ten years will not drill enamel like [00:22:00] they will not like in that situation. That would be like some sort of sacrilege. Like like like [00:22:05] and it’s so weird, you know, because like you say, we’re talking about tiny amounts to save [00:22:10] a lot of hassle for everyone. Um, but yeah, that’s what the younger dentists particularly [00:22:15] like.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah, we make a big joke about it. Like when we when we know when we’re talking about this [00:22:20] sort of on the courses and stuff and we’re like, okay, like, guys, just be ready, okay? This [00:22:25] is gonna be like, you know, sacrilege. This is enamel sacrifice [00:22:30] going on. But what I do tell them is, you know, that peak that’s sticking up. [00:22:35] Guess what’s going to happen when that breaks? Because it’s not going to stay there forever, [00:22:40] right? Yeah, that’s gonna break. And it’s not going to break cleanly. It’s gonna break. It’s gonna take a little bit more off [00:22:45] of the the bit of the tooth next to it. So in [00:22:50] fact, you are saving enamel.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: But you know, like trying to [00:22:55] appeal to their, uh, their.

Payman Langroudi: Minimally invasive side. Right?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah, exactly. So [00:23:00] I have, you know, and I also worried it to the patient in a way, you [00:23:05] know, I don’t, you know, you don’t say to them, could I please drill away some [00:23:10] of your enamel? I mean, obviously they know, uh, so I’ll just say, look, to make this work, [00:23:15] I need to just smooth off some of the rough edges on those lower teeth. It’ll be like just doing a [00:23:20] manicure, right? Everybody loves a manicure. And you know, you do it so that you can run your gloved [00:23:25] finger over it and not feel anything sharp. It’s it’s tiny, tiny amounts, but [00:23:30] they can make a mess difference.

Payman Langroudi: So there we go. There’s one common error that people make with [00:23:35] occlusion. And we come across this all the time, right? That that question of these teeth have been shortened for [00:23:40] a reason. Yeah. And then we just go in and lengthen them and expect [00:23:45] the composites, which are nowhere near as strong as the original teeth to manage that common error. [00:23:50] Yeah. For anterior composites. Yeah. See it all the time. Yeah. What’s the other common [00:23:55] errors? Now I’d suspect. I mean, do bear with me. Yeah. It’s been 14 years since [00:24:00] I was a dentist. Like anything on the seven. Any item on the seven [00:24:05] is is much more dangerous than on any other tooth. Am I right about that? That’s right. And again, [00:24:10] just talk us through those and the common things that people do wrong there.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Well, so yeah, again, [00:24:15] you know, when you, you can either think about it in terms of biology [00:24:20] okay. So you’ve got your, uh, people [00:24:25] hate this word, but mechanoreceptors and stuff like that. So generally forces when you’re [00:24:30] when you’ve got contact on posterior teeth, the elevator muscles, the muscles of mastication, they can exert [00:24:35] more force. Right. You get more of the fibres actually recruited. That’s one thing. [00:24:40] But also very simply put the seven is closer to the hinge. Yeah. [00:24:45] And the muscles. So you’re just going to have higher forces on the seven than you do on your central standard. [00:24:50] Now what other problems do you have with sevens. They tend to be clinically [00:24:55] shorter crowds. Right.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s play less to play.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: With, less to play with. Right. You can’t prep as [00:25:00] much to give yourself enough thickness. Um, sometimes the upper seven tends to be [00:25:05] tilted. So to the side with the palatal cusp hanging down, you can you might want to call it like a plunger [00:25:10] cusp or something. So there’s a lot of things that, uh, work against you sometimes. [00:25:15] Right. So a step one is be aware of all these things. [00:25:20] Right. So, you know, will the patient let you put gold on a seven if [00:25:25] they do? I mean, you know, again, this is a you’re you’re an aesthetic [00:25:30] course. Uh.

Payman Langroudi: Let me give me the words you use to persuade them, because [00:25:35] I could, I could, I could yeah, I mean, I just talk about how long it’s going to last. Right.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. I just say, look, [00:25:40] your tooth’s very short. Um, and if you want it to last as long as [00:25:45] possible, I want to put a material on there that can be. So I’ll say, like, a [00:25:50] really strong and thin section. Although actually it’s not. It’s strength. It’s it’s malleability [00:25:55] and it’s ability to adapt. But you don’t have to go into that patient. Right. But but yeah that’s the [00:26:00] key there. Um, and it’s not going to uh, we can get into this in [00:26:05] a second, but I think you need to understand what the definition of failure is in a lot [00:26:10] of these things as well. Right. So even going back to the anterior teeth, these [00:26:15] patients are not going to stop doing what they’re doing. They’re still going to wear their the teeth down, they’re still [00:26:20] going to wear your composite down. So again consenting. But for me [00:26:25] one light bulb moment was when I understood what is or what isn’t failure. I’m not trying to [00:26:30] stop my composite wearing. I’m trying to stop catastrophic failure. So I’m trying to stop them [00:26:35] ringing me on a Sunday night going. My front tooth just broke. Or your composite chipped. Right. [00:26:40] If it’s where it happened, slowly enough, nobody notices, right? You get to do the same [00:26:45] procedure again in ten years time. But it’s those chips, those fractures. That’s what you want to avoid. And [00:26:50] the same thing on a seven, right? Slowly they might wear through it. But again that is [00:26:55] less of a catastrophic failure than the crown fracturing um, or uh, [00:27:00] deep bonding coming off completely.

Payman Langroudi: Um, sometimes, I mean, [00:27:05] this must have a name like, you prep the seven and you destroy the whole stability [00:27:10] of the occlusion.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah, it’s called the last tooth in the arch syndrome.

Payman Langroudi: Right. And then you can’t get clearance [00:27:15] anymore because how much you prep, it just keeps on going or whatever. Yeah. Is it possible [00:27:20] to predict that might happen? Yes it is.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So we again [00:27:25] we go through this. We actually have the, um, I talk about this for a whole hour [00:27:30] on a podcast, but I’ll give you.

Payman Langroudi: The break it down to one minute. One minute.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Essentially, [00:27:35] what’s happening with those patients is that tooth happens to be their initial point of contact, [00:27:40] or the first point of contact in central correlation. Yeah, right. So their joints are seated [00:27:45] as they’re closing one tooth hits and then they slide into their normal bite. That’s their central contact [00:27:50] point. And it happens to be the tooth you’re about to prep. So now you prep it. And [00:27:55] what happens is that the joint seats upwards a little bit right.

Payman Langroudi: The joint is not used to that. [00:28:00] So it just.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. Well the joint has no reason to now sit [00:28:05] further down. Right. Because it was that interference that was stopping its eating. So [00:28:10] now that’s gone. Now it seats. And now you just lost some or [00:28:15] all of the space you’ve created. So what you don’t want to do is you don’t want to be [00:28:20] in that situation having not told the patient and having no [00:28:25] out. So the simplest thing you can do is screen for it. Okay. And the way we teach is [00:28:30] leaf gauge. You get a leaf gauge essentially just a bunch of plastic leaves. You put it in the patient’s mouth [00:28:35] and using the, the, you know, technique of forward, back and squeeze, you’re trying to get the condyles [00:28:40] to seat and you’re going to find which tooth is this patient’s first point of contact. [00:28:45] If it’s a tooth you’re about to work on. There may be a risk. If it’s not great, [00:28:50] carry on. So what do we do if it is the tooth we’re about to work on? In [00:28:55] a nutshell, you need to figure out how much space might you lose? [00:29:00] Okay. Simplest way is look at the next tooth along [00:29:05] that looks like it might touch sort of next if you like. Right. If [00:29:10] that space is a quarter of a millimetre or half a millimetre. [00:29:15] Chances are that’s the most you can lose, right? Because everything’s good. You keep moving up until that two [00:29:20] thirds. If it’s half a millimetre, I’m not bothered. I’ll just prep an extra half. If [00:29:25] it’s a plunger cusp at the top. I’ll smooth it down a little bit. Tell the patient. Yeah. Now, [00:29:30] if it’s two millimetres of space, then I’m like, [00:29:35] okay, this could be a problem, right? But whose problem is it?

Payman Langroudi: Patience. [00:29:40]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Patience problem? Yeah, right. My duty is to inform. [00:29:45] We could crown on this tooth. I would need to do this. That might happen. Okay, [00:29:50] so, uh, what do we do? Right. Um, I’m like, okay, if it’s something [00:29:55] you still want to do, I need to get more information. So for me, let’s get some models mounted. Right. [00:30:00] You can do the prep on the model and then see what happens. Right. And [00:30:05] you can then use that information to relay back to the patient. Well it could change your bite. It could do this could do [00:30:10] that. Whatever. You know, there’s a [00:30:15] lot of time in what we do. There’s a difference between what’s in the textbook and what you [00:30:20] get to do, or what the patients allow you to do in real life. Yeah. Um, but by the way, let’s [00:30:25] say the patient says, oh, absolutely not. I’m not doing that. What I have done before, where, [00:30:30] you know, the tooth is still restored with the direct, uh, restoration. [00:30:35] You know, I’ve just maintained that the rest of the tooth and just restored [00:30:40] it direct. You know, after making this. So discovery. Now, does that [00:30:45] increase the risk of this tooth fracturing? Yeah, possibly, if that tooth is getting [00:30:50] pounded.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Right. If it is something that the patient does go on and maybe grind [00:30:55] or clench on it or does it in slides, some people do, some people don’t. Right. There is an [00:31:00] increased risk to that tooth. But again whose risk is it. Patients. Patients. Right. So again you inform [00:31:05] you tell them this might happen. What else can we do. Right. Maybe a protective appliance [00:31:10] might help if it’s something that they do at night, right? But again, you [00:31:15] know, there’s you can’t always fix everything. But I think [00:31:20] the last thing you want to do is be in a situation where you’ve prepped the truth, and now you’re about [00:31:25] to pop it because there’s just no space and you haven’t told the patient and you’re [00:31:30] not stuck. So just screen for it with practice takes two minutes. So if I’m prepping your last [00:31:35] tooth of any sort, I will definitely do it. If I’m doing like [00:31:40] a six and they still have the seven, I’ll do it on a good day. And if I’m being lazy, I might [00:31:45] not.

Payman Langroudi: Not so. Not so crucial. Right. Yeah.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So I don’t see a lot of wear that sort of stuff.

Payman Langroudi: So there we go. The [00:31:50] first one, the anterior I mean the lateral right. The distal side of the lateral. This [00:31:55] this one. This one that you just mentioned. What else.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: What [00:32:00] else in terms of.

Payman Langroudi: The general dentist is out there. Might not know [00:32:05] about something in occlusion. Some simple thing like the two that you just mentioned. [00:32:10] That will make a massive difference to their, you know, screen for [00:32:15] what? Like I’d say, I don’t know what I’d say. The communication with the lab [00:32:20] aspect of it. And what’s the point of you knowing everything about occlusion if you can’t communicate that to the lab? [00:32:25] Like, why are you doing what you’re doing? You know, cusp angles. [00:32:30] Angles.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. So and you have to kind of take a step back [00:32:35] from that, because if you don’t know what is in the patient’s mouth, you can’t communicate it [00:32:40] to the lab. So, you know, again, it seems so basic [00:32:45] when you think about it. And yet, you know, if I line up a hundred [00:32:50] people that have just left dental school and asked them, okay, you know, you check [00:32:55] the occlusion, right? They’re like, yeah, we check the occlusion. I’m like, okay, do you check it after you’ve done the filling? Yes, we check [00:33:00] it after we’ve done the filling. Okay. Did you check it before you did the filling?

Payman Langroudi: Very rare. Yeah.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: No.

Payman Langroudi: So what are [00:33:05] you checking? It’s great advice, isn’t it?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So what, are you checking it again?

Payman Langroudi: Just that one piece of it.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: And, [00:33:10] you know, again on when we’re talking about this on the course. Sometimes it it [00:33:15] does tend to be like, okay, that you’ve just finished explaining the basic occlusal exam [00:33:20] and then you’re going to like, oh my God, it’s a lot. It really isn’t on like a day [00:33:25] to day dentistry basis. So you know when, when, when the patient’s in you [00:33:30] can either you can even do this while they’re getting numb. Right. So I put topical [00:33:35] on. Yeah. Doesn’t work blah blah whatever. It’s just part of.

Payman Langroudi: I think [00:33:40] it works. Try the area, put it on, leave it for a long time.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: And even if it is placebo, [00:33:45] fine. Even it just makes it patient. Feel better, fine. Whatever. It’s just part of my routine. [00:33:50] Put that on and then I use troll foil. There is a reason [00:33:55] it is more expensive, but for me, I don’t even have to really dry the teeth out [00:34:00] for it to mark it just marks. So I’ll do that and use shim stock.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:34:05] it’s thinner.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: It’s thinner. And the number of times [00:34:10] you think teeth touch when they don’t, you know, is quite, is quite high. And [00:34:15] what I really do think I know this this [00:34:20] is people are going to switch off now. Um, but shim stock is a bit of a game changer because [00:34:25] it gives you so much confidence in knowing that you’ve nailed the occlusion in [00:34:30] terms of I’ve given you back exactly what you had before. Right. You might feel like it’s weird, [00:34:35] but trust me on this. It’s just your numb. It will be fine. Right. Instead [00:34:40] of going back and just adjusting and then going, um, I know it’s still.

Payman Langroudi: You’re saying [00:34:45] you’re you can say it with authority. Much more confidence.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. And when you do that [00:34:50] with the patient, they’re like, oh okay. Cool. Right. And honestly, 1 [00:34:55] in 1000 cases will be, uh, come back. I’ve got an issue. [00:35:00] Yeah. Um, because it is so, so precise. Um, [00:35:05] but you need to check the occlusion before you start, so you have something to compare [00:35:10] it to at the end. But equally, then you have something to give to the lab. Right. So if I’m doing an [00:35:15] indirect restoration, I have the very least will tell the lab which teeth hold stock and which [00:35:20] don’t. Not even the whole mouth, just the tooth. I’m working on one [00:35:25] behind it, one in front of it and maybe one on the other side. If I’m taking a full arch scan, a lot of the time I’m [00:35:30] taking like a quadrant. Quadrant scan, right? Um, and [00:35:35] with regards to your question about possible angles and stuff, again, you know, [00:35:40] technicians love making pretty things just like we do. Yeah. So they don’t want to pick the [00:35:45] tooth with the prettiest anatomy big, you know? Yeah, [00:35:50] exactly. Like 16 different values and stuff. Yeah. Uh, and that might not be appropriate. [00:35:55] Right. So, you know, we say only goes like, why sometimes you have [00:36:00] to think like, why do you want to give a 70 year old patient A ten year old’s tooth. That [00:36:05] makes no sense. Yeah. So I will always give them guidance in terms [00:36:10] of saying don’t make the cusps any steeper than.

Payman Langroudi: The adjacent.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Tooth. [00:36:15] Yeah. The seven if I’m doing the six, for example. Um, and [00:36:20] the fact that you are telling them that the fact that you are giving them the shim stock holds, [00:36:25] the fact that you are dictating what you want, that’s [00:36:30] not the case. They’re going to pass on to the most junior, [00:36:35] least experienced.

Payman Langroudi: That’s interesting.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Right. That’s they’re going to pay attention to [00:36:40] that and they will send you back what you want. And if they don’t you send it back once. Trust [00:36:45] me after that, every time it will come back they would. It’s not going to be perfect every time. It’s not what I’m saying. [00:36:50] What I’m saying is extra attention. Yeah, yeah. They’ll they’ll they’ll know. Okay. [00:36:55] This guy’s serious. This guy’s serious. They’re gonna check. They’re going to pay attention. [00:37:00] Now, do you know, is the equation perfect on every single one of my iterations? No. Do [00:37:05] I sometimes cement things in that are a little bit shy? Yes I do. Um, [00:37:10] yeah. Not not half a millimetre out of the way. Not a millimetre out of the bite. That’s, you [00:37:15] know, that’s that’s leaving too much to chance for me. Yeah. But [00:37:20] you know, if, uh, if if I double up that articulating paper and [00:37:25] it starts grabbing and it’s like, that’s like 40 microns. Yeah. It’s fine. [00:37:30] Um, and, yeah, a lot of people might be thinking, well, that’s [00:37:35] still, like, ridiculous. Who cares? It’s just one tooth. Well, [00:37:40] if you want to keep doing just one tooth every single time, fine. For [00:37:45] me, I enjoy doing more involved stuff. [00:37:50] So doing quadrant, doing a full arch, doing a full mouth, and you can’t leave a full arch out of the bite. So [00:37:55] you learn on the single. Mondays and Tuesdays. Right. And then it’s like you extrapolate.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:38:00] Like you learn a composite on a single central, but that’s what you extrapolate into [00:38:05] a full smile or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And what about the patient’s ability to sort of, [00:38:10] um, adapt?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: I mean, we would be screwed.

Payman Langroudi: Without.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Without [00:38:15] that massively.

Payman Langroudi: With Invisalign or whatever. Right. The teeth are nowhere near each other, and [00:38:20] then they jiggle themselves in. Does that not mean that if we make little mistakes and occlusion doesn’t matter because things will [00:38:25] adapt? Or is it like sometimes they will, sometimes they won’t, and then you’re in trouble? Yeah, exactly. [00:38:30]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Well, sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t. Yeah. And also you got to remember when you’ve just finished Invisalign all [00:38:35] these periodontal ligaments are really wide. Yeah that’s true. So there is, there is um.

Payman Langroudi: A [00:38:40] very moving around anyway. Yeah.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. There’s a good point. There’s a, there’s a very sort of well-known, [00:38:45] um, someone that speaks a lot about [00:38:50] whether CRPS is, is is real or not. And, [00:38:55] you know, I agree with 99% of the stuff that they say in terms of [00:39:00] and let’s not be dogmatic about things. However, when you [00:39:05] when you’re able to put brackets and braces on a [00:39:10] lot of the complex cases, I think the ability of the teeth [00:39:15] and the ligament and stuff to adapt becomes much higher because you’ve just loosened everything.

Payman Langroudi: Essentially, [00:39:20] the very good point. Right. Never thought.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: About it. Yeah. And then [00:39:25] it does make you think like, okay, well, if, if everything can just jiggle around and and fit [00:39:30] after a while then yeah, much easier. But yeah, we rely heavily on the patient’s ability [00:39:35] to adapt. Um, without that, you honestly, you’d be you’d be [00:39:40] you’d never do more than one tooth at a time.

Payman Langroudi: That would be the difference between a machine and a and a [00:39:45] and a and a human right. Yeah.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Essentially. Yeah, yeah. Because there’s a lot [00:39:50] of moving parts and there’s a lot of squishy parts as well. You know, so again, there are certain things you learn growing [00:39:55] up, not growing up, but growing up in this industry or in this career, and you start thinking, I don’t [00:40:00] know, man, that doesn’t really make sense. So, you know, you you go and you learn about central [00:40:05] relation, for example, and you get told this, you can identify this with [00:40:10] pinpoint accuracy. Yeah. I was thinking [00:40:15] the amount of like squishy bits involved. You got the [00:40:20] disc the the muscles, the, you know, your mandible flexes.

Payman Langroudi: Is that.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Right? Yeah. [00:40:25] And and it’s, it’s to a point where there can actually be a difference in. [00:40:30] So when this all this becomes much more important when you’re dealing with implants and stuff because you don’t have [00:40:35] the flexibility of the periodontal ligament. But yeah, that can have an impact. [00:40:40] The fact that the mandible flexibility your stone models or your printed models don’t know.

[TRANSITION]: Interesting.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So imagine [00:40:45] then you’re trying to tell me that central relation is a point. Yeah. Whereas [00:40:50] if I, you know, was out last night and I’m super dehydrated, [00:40:55] it might be that my disc is actually slightly thinner today than it was yesterday.

[TRANSITION]: I [00:41:00] just see. Yeah.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So again, that false, um, [00:41:05] belief that we might be more accurate than we really are. And [00:41:10] then extrapolating to that to hey, if you don’t learn how [00:41:15] to be super accurate by coming and [00:41:20] letting me teach you this very precise method [00:41:25] that only I can teach you, yeah, you will fail. Yeah. [00:41:30] That kind of initially sat not so comfortable with me. I was like that. I [00:41:35] don’t know. I just don’t see it being that precise. And hence why? Margin of safety. [00:41:40] Just building a little bit of room for error. You know, if you assume that centre correlation is a small [00:41:45] area, right, you make your where the teeth contact maybe [00:41:50] just a little bit bigger. Then you’re just like less likely to have to have issues. [00:41:55]

Payman Langroudi: When did you like it? [00:42:00] Not suddenly, but when did you decide? I’m gonna check out occlusion. And, like, were [00:42:05] you always that cat? Like like it curious cat. But [00:42:10] but, you know, it’s a kind of big thing to say. I’m going to figure out as much as I can about occlusion [00:42:15] almost on your own. You decided to do that, right? It wasn’t like you were on a course or something. [00:42:20] You just decided to do that.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. So. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what’s the story of that? [00:42:25] Well, you taught it very well at Manchester, number one.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: No, not at all. Not at all. It’s [00:42:30] poorly taught in general. Yeah. Especially undergrad. Not [00:42:35] necessarily. I’m not saying that to say that dental schools do a bad job. I just think [00:42:40] they have a hell of a job already making us. Mildly [00:42:45] competent, you know? Yeah, yeah. You know, safe [00:42:50] enough not to kill patients. You know, that’s tough enough.

Payman Langroudi: Do you trace it back to a particular [00:42:55] case, for instance, like a particular fracture that you were like, why the hell did that happen? I need to know everything about this [00:43:00] thing.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Well, so honestly, like, during uni, I [00:43:05] was just, hey, what do I need to just pass? I’ll [00:43:10] do that and let’s just go have fun, right? That was it. Graduating [00:43:15] was probably one of the biggest sort of anticlimactic things. [00:43:20] Not because I was expecting it. That’s what I’m saying. What I’m saying is.

[TRANSITION]: Like.

Payman Langroudi: Everything was working towards. [00:43:25]

[TRANSITION]: That. Yeah, well, it was like.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Well, now, um, the [00:43:30] hard part begins sort of thing, you know? And I [00:43:35] was like, I’ve seen two patients a day, max, up until this [00:43:40] point, and now I’m expected to see 20. Um, you don’t learn [00:43:45] how to speak to patients. Literally everything is scary. Everything scares the shit out of you, [00:43:50] and then you’re expected to do it. Do it well, [00:43:55] um, and get better. Which I was like, oh my God, you know. So [00:44:00] I spent the first five years trying to do anything to get out [00:44:05] of that story.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah, I read what I didn’t enjoy at all. I really [00:44:10] did enjoy it whatsoever.

Payman Langroudi: Well, I didn’t know this.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: No. Um, [00:44:15] you know, I tried to I learned I learned how to sort of build websites. I had an [00:44:20] idea to create a Dental buying group. Believe it or not, you’re not [00:44:25] the first guy I know, right? This was the first season.

Payman Langroudi: And you won’t be the.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Last. 2006. Um, [00:44:30] and anyway, clearly I wasn’t any good at any of that either. [00:44:35]

Payman Langroudi: So did you actually take any of those little ideas, any distance or so?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Uh, yeah. I mean, [00:44:40] uh, you know, I had, uh, bespoke software written for the, the, the buying [00:44:45] thing. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. Uh, and then. Yeah, [00:44:50] ultimately it.

Payman Langroudi: Was changed.

Payman Langroudi: What changed?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So [00:44:55] funnily enough, one day I did. I remember this very, very [00:45:00] clearly. I did a class for composite. And it looked like an I swear. Sure, [00:45:05] saying look like shit. Like it was so bad. And I was [00:45:10] kind of disgusted with myself. Honestly, I.

[TRANSITION]: Was a little bit [00:45:15] disgusted.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: With myself. And I was like, okay, well, if I’m kind of stuck doing this. [00:45:20]

Payman Langroudi: Then let’s figure out how to do it.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Well, try and do it well. Yeah. [00:45:25] And it was just the start of where you [00:45:30] can find stuff on YouTube that wasn’t garbage. You know, it was okay when someone’s actually [00:45:35] showing a procedure. You know, the first time I saw someone use, like, a little putty stent, I was like, mind [00:45:40] blown. This is amazing. They don’t teach you that at uni? No. You know, not back when I was there anyway. [00:45:45]

Payman Langroudi: No, they saw that.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. So I was like.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, there’s.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Actually more than one way to do this. Great. Okay. [00:45:50]

Payman Langroudi: And that literally flicked a switch and you went then all in like, [00:45:55] are you that cat like you?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Extremes.

Payman Langroudi: Extremes.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah yeah yeah yeah. And [00:46:00] also, um, like slightly, slightly obsessive. So [00:46:05] I went through periods where I would [00:46:10] pick like say endo. So my endo as well, [00:46:15] I was like, okay, let’s learn how to do endo. And I’d have a folder. Right. And I’d [00:46:20] spend three, four months and literally every day all I would look at is endo [00:46:25] stuff. Right. And just write the protocols down, learn them, practice them, find out what [00:46:30] the evidence is and just try and get better. Once I felt like, okay, reasonable, [00:46:35] right, I’ll move on to the next thing. So I couldn’t even do more than one thing at once, right? [00:46:40] Like I wasn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Hyperfocus.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah, I couldn’t just say, okay, I’ll do endo perio [00:46:45] and inlays or lasers. I’m like, no one thing. Um, [00:46:50] and it’s not necessarily healthy. And it wasn’t. It wasn’t [00:46:55] always in a good way. Uh, but anyway, that’s how I did it. Um, [00:47:00] the occlusion thing came about again. Because, you know. [00:47:05]

Payman Langroudi: Before you go ahead. What do you mean? Wasn’t always in a good way.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Having [00:47:10] a slightly, like one. Uh, [00:47:15] single. Single? Yeah. Single minded? [00:47:20] Yeah. Yeah. We all have.

Payman Langroudi: That single minded determination.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. Can be. Can be [00:47:25] unhealthy. You know.

Payman Langroudi: As in relationships with others. Whatever you just to.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Complete [00:47:30] can be.

Payman Langroudi: You only see that you don’t see anything.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Okay. So occlusion.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So [00:47:35] that again came about because of, you know, I think I’m [00:47:40] a fairly logical person who’s able to make logical deductions fairly well. [00:47:45] You know, that’s probably one my one strength. So when [00:47:50] I was starting to enjoy dentistry a little bit more. I was like, okay, [00:47:55] well, I like the idea of making teeth look nice, treating debilitated [00:48:00] dentition that look messed up and the patients can’t chew or whatever. [00:48:05] But why would my stuff last [00:48:10] when they’ve destroyed their enamel? Like, what’s the [00:48:15] secret here? Yeah. So that’s that was the trigger, right? And that was me. Okay. Well, what do I [00:48:20] need to learn? So I start asking questions and God bless him, there’s two of my [00:48:25] sort of long term, uh, mentors, uh, you know, shout out to, uh, Doctor Michael [00:48:30] Marcus. You know, they I wouldn’t be where I am [00:48:35] now if it wasn’t for those two. Who are they? So teachers. So. No. So, Eleanor, she’s a dentist [00:48:40] out in California.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, okay.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: And Michael Marcus. He’s in New Hampshire at the moment [00:48:45] again. He they’ve both, you know, been teaching occlusion [00:48:50] treatment, planning, communication at a high level for decades. You [00:48:55] know, and they were always so generous with their time [00:49:00] and so sharing their knowledge. And the beautiful thing [00:49:05] is like when, um, you know, when I get a chance to, to say that to them, you know, and thank [00:49:10] them. Uh, you know, my especially was like, you know, you know, just just make sure you pass it on [00:49:15] sort of thing, which is really cool, really nice.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what did you do? Dm them or. Go on. [00:49:20]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. So essentially essentially it was initially stalking and asking questions, following cases, [00:49:25] asking for advice. Um, and then you go from there.

Payman Langroudi: Literally.

Payman Langroudi: What did you [00:49:30] do here? What can I do here?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. And their teaching style really suited me as [00:49:35] well because they ask questions. They they don’t give you the answer. They’ll show you and [00:49:40] they’ll say, what’s the problem? You know, Why would this not work? And then you have to make [00:49:45] that leap yourself. And once you do that, you never forget it. That’s right. And [00:49:50] I think that translated into how I teach as well. Um, [00:49:55] but then once you’ve once you now know [00:50:00] what the holes in your knowledge are, then you [00:50:05] try and fill them. Right. So that’s when it starts becoming. Okay. Let’s you know, you can either go out to the [00:50:10] US and join one of these big continuum. You know back in my time is like buy DVDs, right? Buy all the Frank [00:50:15] Speer DVDs. Buy buy these buy the books. Dawson oxen. Did you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:50:20] Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, there’s a collusion design. Um, [00:50:25] it’s called the the program by Stephen Phelan. You know, here there was Raja Ahluwalia, [00:50:30] who ran a great sort of, um, uh, I think [00:50:35] it’s over for weekends, of course. And he has got sort of a very heavy, punky Influence [00:50:40] Steven Davis on on my Masters. Um, reading [00:50:45] the papers, you know. So again, this was even. Even so how [00:50:50] old is my son now? 11. So yeah, he was he was one. I still remember, [00:50:55] you know, they go to bed early at that age. And after that, after he’d go to bed, he’d [00:51:00] be like four hours of just reading papers, you know, any, any stuff [00:51:05] that I’m between me and like, laying or Mike is like documented.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So I’d create a [00:51:10] word document, put everything together, put the similar cases together and start figuring [00:51:15] out the commonalities they have. Because, again, another thing I noticed was, you know, you’ve [00:51:20] got like all these different occlusal camps, you know, you and there’s [00:51:25] maybe 3 or 4 of them that have fairly major differences [00:51:30] in terms of how they approach occlusion or treatment planning. And [00:51:35] the problem is that they all work right, Because if one of them didn’t. [00:51:40] It clearly wouldn’t be here 20, 30, or 40 years later. So they must [00:51:45] work. So again, logically to me, what that what that told me [00:51:50] was that the secret sauce wasn’t in what they did differently. It’s when it’s what [00:51:55] they do that is the same. And all that is just force management, you know. And I think [00:52:00] a similar sort of thing, you know, where we talked earlier about the belief [00:52:05] was that we would correct someone’s occlusion and they would stop grinding. And we now know that’s [00:52:10] false. And yet the practices are still the same. Why? [00:52:15] Because they happen to be the same practices you would do to try and survive that patient’s [00:52:20] occlusion. Right. Make your restorations work in that patient’s mouth. Now I see the same sort of [00:52:25] thing happening with parrot function. Or, you know, if you want to narrow [00:52:30] it down to bruxism versus function. So you listen to some amazing people [00:52:35] speak and it’s all about function, functional conflicts, you know, constricted envelopes [00:52:40] of function.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: And I agree, I believe all of [00:52:45] that does exist. You listen to someone else. And it’s all about power functions. It’s all about grinding. It’s all [00:52:50] our books. And yes, I believe all that exists as well. But again, the cool thing is the [00:52:55] same stuff you do for one works for the other. Right. So if [00:53:00] I’m hyper focussed on function and I do some stuff, design my illustration in a particular [00:53:05] way, the contacts in a particular way, guess what? It’s gonna [00:53:10] also help mitigate the effects of power function. But now because I’m hyper focussed on function, I think, [00:53:15] oh, I’ve sorted out the function, that’s why nothing’s breaking, whereas actually you’ve done both. So again, I think [00:53:20] to me at least that’s becoming more obvious. I used to be a [00:53:25] lot more power function focussed in terms of like I’m just going to mitigate for grinding and clenching. That [00:53:30] sort of stuff didn’t pay quite as much attention to [00:53:35] Functional conflicts up until probably about five years ago, where [00:53:40] I started reading more. Looking more at my own patients. You know, I take videos of people chewing, [00:53:45] speaking and just look at it. And then you start to come to your own conclusions. [00:53:50] Um, and you can see that actually the same thing I do for one, I do for the other anyway. Um, [00:53:55] so it was I can’t remember where we got to, you know, occlusion.

Payman Langroudi: Why did you get into [00:54:00] it and then how far you went into it. And, you know, you’re telling me that.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, you’re [00:54:05] you’re reading everything. You’re learning the things that taught me the most. And I think [00:54:10] that allow me to feel, um, [00:54:15] that it’s okay for me to stand there and teach people.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Is [00:54:20] I went through a phase of I will plan and I [00:54:25] will wax up and I will carry out all my own cases. Oh, really? Yeah. [00:54:30] So once you’ve done 20 wax wakes. Ups on [00:54:35] tooth wear cases ranging from this patient just wants to treat their upper front teeth [00:54:40] to more extensive cases. You learn so much [00:54:45] because every time you pick up that waxer and you put some wax on the teeth, you are making [00:54:50] a micro decision and you are then seeing what the effect of that decision is on [00:54:55] the occlusion, but also maybe on aesthetics, right on function. You’re [00:55:00] you’re making these decisions and then you’re going back, oh, I need to you know, you need to remove [00:55:05] some from here. I need to shorten this. I need to lengthen that. And that doing [00:55:10] that over and over again makes you understand why the principles [00:55:15] are the way they are. Right. So that for me was a huge teaching point. And [00:55:20] lots and lots of people ask me like, oh, you know, how do I what, you [00:55:25] know, what’s the number one thing I should try and do if I want to learn to model, just wax up your own cases. Really? [00:55:30] Yeah. Even if it’s just a Central. Just do the front teeth. Whatever [00:55:35] it is, just wax it up. It doesn’t have to be pretty, you know, sometimes I’ll do the wax up. It’s not that pretty, but [00:55:40] it works. I’ll send it to the lab and they can make it pretty. Uh, even with [00:55:45] composite. Just do more. Mock it up. Just with composite. Do it in the patient’s [00:55:50] mouth. If it’s simple, you can do a mock optimisation and work it out that way. But just on a set of models allows [00:55:55] you to add take away, you know, see what happens.

Payman Langroudi: Understand what’s going on. A bit like [00:56:00] intimately, right? Yeah.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So for me that was that [00:56:05] was a lot of hours but I unlock. Yeah, [00:56:10] yeah yeah I really did. And it made me again [00:56:15] you know uh, sometimes you say things that maybe [00:56:20] go against the grain a little bit, and you always wonder whether people are like, the hell you know, shut the [00:56:25] hell up. But I truly think sometimes these smaller [00:56:30] changes that you can make. Like making the edge a little bit thicker. Securing [00:56:35] the lower incisors. Building in these margins of safety. The angles, all that sort of stuff. [00:56:40] Might. And a lot of patients make more of a difference to the survivability [00:56:45] of your restorations than making sure central collation is with pinpoint accuracy, [00:56:50] right.

Payman Langroudi: I think you know what? I think it’s a it’s a funny thing that sometimes [00:56:55] with deep understanding comes simple, simple, [00:57:00] simple like like, I don’t know, like e equals MC squared. Sounds [00:57:05] pretty simple. Yeah. But that took a deep understanding to get to that point. [00:57:10] And, and the simplicity with which I mean teaching in the end is simplifying [00:57:15] the complicated in a way. Right. The simplicity with which you look [00:57:20] at a subject often is a reflection of your deep understanding [00:57:25] of that subject. Like you brought it down to one thing like force management. Yeah. [00:57:30] And you know, the amount of reading you’ve done over the years. And here we’ve brought it down to that. Yeah. [00:57:35] You could, you could, I could be some professor somewhere and say, who was this kid? They were saying, force [00:57:40] majeure. But sometimes keeping it simple comes from understanding it deeply. [00:57:45] And and the opposite. People complicate things because [00:57:50] they don’t fully understand them.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. And I think there definitely is a risk of oversimplification, [00:57:55] you know. Sure. You know, we look at, uh, you know, you’ll say, okay, well, you [00:58:00] talked about the angles and stuff or why don’t you just make them all really shallow? Because the patients need to chew, [00:58:05] right? Yeah. But at the same time, there [00:58:10] are. You need to weigh up. So. So [00:58:15] learning occlusion is kind of like learning how to use, uh, you know, build puzzles. [00:58:20] Right. I can tell you very simply, if you want to do [00:58:25] the puzzle, take a piece that has an outer bit, Put it into the bit with the indie bit. That’s it. [00:58:30] Right. That’s.

Payman Langroudi: That’s it. It’s a bit over simple, but.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: It’s not the same as let me giving [00:58:35] you a thousand piece puzzle and saying, okay, work this out. Right. You need strategies. At that point you just start thinking, [00:58:40] okay, build the borders, look at the corners, blah blah, blah. Put all the colours together. It’s the same thing [00:58:45] with the clues. You need to figure out how complex is this case. And then what you’ll find is a lot [00:58:50] of the time there is a bit of a tug of war between, especially in tooth wear cases, between aesthetics and [00:58:55] between managing the risk. Yeah. [00:59:00] So and whether that’s a hand function. Definitely. I’ve put it in [00:59:05] there with aesthetics and function together on one side. And maybe power function or [00:59:10] mitigating for power function on the other side, whereas you want to make things as safe as possible, but that might [00:59:15] influence the aesthetics of the case, or it might affect the chewing [00:59:20] efficiency. But how much? You know, if I take your chewing efficiency [00:59:25] from a random number, I pull out of my backside of, I don’t know, 70%. [00:59:30] I take you down to 60%. It’s not going [00:59:35] to make a difference. What if you’ve got just flat amalgams everywhere, broken teeth and your chewing efficiency is actually [00:59:40] 15% and I only take you up to 40? Is [00:59:45] that good or bad?

Payman Langroudi: That’s good.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Right. So this is what I mean by [00:59:50] it’s a it’s it’s a set of thought frameworks [00:59:55] if you like, or ways of thinking. And then you have to take each case [01:00:00] on its, on its merits. Yeah. You know and patient goals come [01:00:05] into it as well. Right. Do I have a patient in the chair who wants ultimate aesthetics. Yeah. [01:00:10] They want all the translucency they want. Fine. But whose problem is it? It’s a patient’s [01:00:15] problem. Right. Explain. Yeah, I can make it look like that, but you’re just more likely to chip it. What [01:00:20] do you want to do? It’s funny. We run a webinar. [01:00:25] Um, and, um, I put up this photo of a case I’d done. [01:00:30] I’d finished it with a tooth white case, and I was like, okay, guys, just, [01:00:35] you know, um, give me some feedback on how you think this looks, especially the proportions [01:00:40] of the teeth. The amount of people are savage when you let them, like, give them the green light. [01:00:45]

Payman Langroudi: Did you just show the after?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Just the after? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And they’re like really [01:00:50] boxy, really square. What you know, and I was like, okay, calm down. Um, [01:00:55] and then I showed them before. Right. And I said, okay, look at the amount [01:01:00] of wear and look at what this patient’s done to their teeth. Right. The every extra [01:01:05] millimetre add in terms of length increases my risk of fracture. And actually, when you look [01:01:10] at the smile, you look at it in the patient’s face. It looks fine. Okay. It’s not you know, I wouldn’t, [01:01:15] you know, enter you.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Know.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Like some prize [01:01:20] giving thing with it. But the patient was over the moon And now I [01:01:25] know that the risk of fracture is much, much, much lower. Right. So again, I will do my [01:01:30] mock-up. I will do all that sort of stuff. And maybe I’ll give this patient [01:01:35] a nine millimetre central, whereas we know, you know, ten and a half, 11.5 if you’re an American, 12.5 [01:01:40] is what you want.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Give give him give him nine. Give him nine and a [01:01:45] half. See what he says. Right. If they’re like, yeah, this looks amazing because it’s twice the size of the tooth they have. Then [01:01:50] you’re all good. So yeah. Each patient.

Payman Langroudi: When [01:01:55] did you first meet Chaz Galati?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Oh, uh, so [01:02:00] I heard his podcast. So this was.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, after you heard this podcast? [01:02:05]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah, but it was like his second episode.

Payman Langroudi: From some, like, somewhere else. No, no, [01:02:10] no.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So, like, I think two episodes in, um, and at that point, I was, you [01:02:15] know, I still am, but, you know, I still will try and consume as much dental [01:02:20] knowledge from anybody and anywhere as I can.

Payman Langroudi: Um, dental vacuum cleaner? [01:02:25]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah. Um, so I saw his one come [01:02:30] up, and I was, like, obtrusive. Okay, maybe. Maybe there’s an occlusion slant here, because I was. I was obsessed with the occlusion. Like, [01:02:35] you know, 12 years into my rabbit hole at that point. And I listened to the episode, [01:02:40] and. And so I emailed him. You know, I’ve never emailed anyone on a podcast before. I [01:02:45] emailed him saying, dude, look, you know, massive respect. Really love what you’re doing. Um, [01:02:50] and, uh, you know, I’m so glad someone here in the UK is finally talking [01:02:55] about this, you know, and jokingly and I finally, I had no [01:03:00] idea about his relationship with either of these two people. But the two people I just mentioned to you, Lenard and Michael [01:03:05] Melchers, um, you know, I and I still have the email because I showed it to him, like again, [01:03:10] like six months ago. So maybe one day you and I will be the Leonard and Michael Marcus of the [01:03:15] UK. And, um, and he was like, oh, you know, that’d be awesome. Like, we just had a little bit of back and forth, [01:03:20] on email. And then he created his telegram group. So [01:03:25] I joined the telegram group. And as it grew, people joined. [01:03:30] People started asking questions, you know, help with cases, things like that.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: And if [01:03:35] I thought I could help, um, you know, I’d give my $0.02. And [01:03:40] usually it was either occlusion related or composite related. Those are the two kinds of things that I enjoy [01:03:45] the most. Um, so that [01:03:50] carried on for a while. And then I think it was after [01:03:55] it was after Covid, it was after Covid because there was a there was a [01:04:00] I think there was a course on occlusion that a lot of the society at the time [01:04:05] went to. And, um, a lot of them came out of it thinking, you know, it’s really good, [01:04:10] but we’re still confused. Um, and that’s when jazz and I thought, [01:04:15] actually. Most of the occlusion courses [01:04:20] assume a basic level of knowledge that [01:04:25] isn’t always there, right? So then he was like, do you wanna do something? I [01:04:30] was like, okay, what? Let’s make a. Essentially what became oh, [01:04:35] Bob and God. I mean, if I knew how much time and effort it would take to make, I mean, [01:04:40] I’d still do it because it’s probably one of the most rewarding things I’ve ever done. But that took over our [01:04:45] lives for, like, a year and a half or two. Two years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I remember at that time. [01:04:50]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: But yeah, no, it was great because, you know, we’re obviously both very passionate about [01:04:55] the subject matter, about teaching, about [01:05:00] just, you know, we both enjoy interacting with people, being, uh, [01:05:05] being out there. And, um, but we’re also very good friends. He’s probably going to [01:05:10] deny it, but we’re good friends. Or at least at least [01:05:15] from my side. Yeah. No, we again, Luckily, we haven’t done really, really well. So, um, [01:05:20] yeah, it’s, you know.

Payman Langroudi: You and as a as a partnership. What who brings [01:05:25] what? Um.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: You know, I think undeniably, [01:05:30] you know, jazz is, uh, is a he’s a, he’s, you know, [01:05:35] he’s incredible on the, on the mic in front of people. He’s, um.

Payman Langroudi: He’s one of [01:05:40] my heroes, man.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. I love the guy.

Payman Langroudi: He’s one of my heroes. But outside of, like, the guy, [01:05:45] I just want my heroes in terms of just almost turned education upside down. [01:05:50] Yeah, I said this kid who’s. I mean, I still call him a kid, but. But back then, when he started, [01:05:55] it was, what, six years out of dental school or something? You know, five years out of dental school, maybe [01:06:00] this kid who’s five years out of dental school is providing much more valuable [01:06:05] knowledge than everyone else. Yeah, it’s such an amazing thing. And then when I, you [01:06:10] know, got close to him a bit more. What? An executor man. Yeah. What [01:06:15] an executor. So? So he brings, like, a communication and, uh, that. [01:06:20] What do you.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Use? Huge amounts of knowledge as well.

Payman Langroudi: Collusion itself.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: I mean, he’s [01:06:25] he’s he’s he’s also got you know, he’s he’s done a lot of training. He’s also got, uh, plenty [01:06:30] of his own sort of ideas. Um, but yeah, for me as well, [01:06:35] it’s, it’s, I’m obsessed with. The [01:06:40] content, the, you know, jazz [01:06:45] always so gets, gets a bit of a headache for me because I, I, I want flow. [01:06:50] I know that doesn’t necessarily make sense, but I’ve been on so many occlusion [01:06:55] courses where you start the day somewhere an [01:07:00] hour later, you’re talking about something, and there’s no clear [01:07:05] path as to how you got from there to here. Like, what is the story? Right. [01:07:10] So you’re you’re finding it very difficult to pay attention. Follow along. You’ve [01:07:15] just been told. Okay. Palpate the masters. It’s like. Why? [01:07:20] Yeah, because, I mean, I know the patient has them. So what am I doing? [01:07:25] But it’s never. Then taken back to. What [01:07:30] does this tell me? How does it affect my clinical management? Right. So I [01:07:35] didn’t I 100% did not want to replicate that. You know, because I can throw [01:07:40] out easily five topics occlusion related that I can cover [01:07:45] in a day. Right. And they could all be relevant. But [01:07:50] if the day doesn’t flow in a way that makes sense. I find [01:07:55] people get lost. Right. And it’s far easier to remember the thing we spoke [01:08:00] about an hour ago. If it clearly has led to what we’re talking about now. [01:08:05] So that became like my mission of the [01:08:10] problem with with occlusion and the real reason we made orb online first [01:08:15] was. It’s hard sometimes [01:08:20] to explain a concept or the beginning [01:08:25] of a concept. Without explaining something more basic. [01:08:30] But even that basic thing kind of has [01:08:35] has something related to it that at the end I’m not explaining this very well, but this [01:08:40] is why I always say to people, you know, don’t make this. Don’t let [01:08:45] this be the last collision course you do, because something you learn at the end of [01:08:50] this course.

Payman Langroudi: Is the beginning of something else.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Be the beginning. We’ll we’ll make something [01:08:55] at the beginning of another course. Make sense? Even though it’s more basic. Yeah. Um, and so we wanted [01:09:00] the ability for people to watch it and then watch it again because you start talking definitions, you know, at [01:09:05] the beginning and you’re talking about centre correlation. Centralisation doesn’t make sense when you’re [01:09:10] just talking about it on its own. Centre correlation really starts to make sense when you’re [01:09:15] talking about why you need it, which a lot of the time is you’re reorganising inclusion, which a [01:09:20] lot of the time is for math rehabs, really complex stuff, which you don’t cover at [01:09:25] the beginning of an inclusion course. You cover it at.

Payman Langroudi: The end context.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Right? Just telling them what it is, but then waiting five modules to [01:09:30] tell them when you can use it. It doesn’t make sense. But once you got there, if you go back and [01:09:35] now read that repetition.

Payman Langroudi: Massive thing.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Huge.

Payman Langroudi: It’s under under-recognized. [01:09:40] You know, I still learn stuff. Every MSM I go to, I learn something. Yeah, yeah. And [01:09:45] it’s not only being told it again. So it goes. It’s not that. It’s your frame [01:09:50] of mind. Like you said, your frame of mind at the end is totally different, and my frame of mind on July [01:09:55] the 12th is different to my frame of mind on December 1st. You know, like even things like that, [01:10:00] um, you know, little clicks that happen. I used to have a CD stuck [01:10:05] in my CD changer.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Oh, we’re going back now.

Payman Langroudi: The whole thing.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Is.

Payman Langroudi: It? Yeah, it was. The six [01:10:10] CDs only had those CDs. One of them was Nancy Robbins. One of 20 [01:10:15] CD thing I bought. And guess what? The only one I remember, [01:10:20] of course, is that so how to manage when, when when you’re overwhelmed. What [01:10:25] five questions to ask yourself. Yeah. And it was there was 19 other CDs. I don’t remember anything about [01:10:30] the why because I listened to that one so many times.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Because it’s a fine balance though, especially [01:10:35] in courses. I feel like most people don’t come on the same course twice.

Payman Langroudi: Um, we really, really, really [01:10:40] encourage it on MSM, you know, like, I want to treat those people as VIPs as well. [01:10:45] Yeah. Because, you know.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: If.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve been on MSM.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Like.

Payman Langroudi: Ten years ago, you can come as much as you are. [01:10:50] You can go one person’s come seven times. Oh wow. Yeah, I think she was she was enjoying [01:10:55] the socials. Yeah. But but my point.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Is.

Payman Langroudi: My point is my point is yeah that that [01:11:00] when when you come a second time to MSM, I feel like me. You gave me one [01:11:05] whole weekend and now you’re giving me another whole weekend of your time. Yeah. [01:11:10]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: That’s incredible.

Payman Langroudi: That’s incredible. Yeah, that’s an incredible thing. Yeah. So for me, they are the VIPs [01:11:15] in the room. The ones that come again, you know.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah, yeah. If they’re willing to like, we’ve, we’ve had, [01:11:20] you know, people do over and then come on the live course as well. And again you know I’ll shake [01:11:25] every single one of their hands and say like, you know, that’s that’s awesome. You know, the fact that the [01:11:30] way maybe we’re conveying information or whatever it is seems to to work [01:11:35] for you. Um, I couldn’t ask for a higher compliment.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:11:40] degree of hero worship do you come across about you? Does it? Does it happen? Do you have, like, fan [01:11:45] boys and girls? No, I bet you do. I think you do. I bet you do. It’s one [01:11:50] of those subjects, like, I don’t know, like, if you. There must be. You must see. Do you ever see yourself in this [01:11:55] younger person? Like someone who’s dying, like diving in and wants to know everything? Yeah.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Must do. [01:12:00] Yes, 100%. 100%. And there’s, you know, there comes a point where you start thinking, hmm. You know, [01:12:05] I need to, uh. I need to try and, like, help them grow. Because [01:12:10] one day they’re going to be, you know, a massive [01:12:15] source of of knowledge and innovation and just new thoughts. Yeah. You know, like, [01:12:20] um, so you do see that in some people? I think, you know, I said this before [01:12:25] we started recording, but there are some incredibly hungry people out there. Like, it’s amazing [01:12:30] to see people who are one, two, three, five years out and the stuff they’re [01:12:35] doing or getting involved in. I’m like, you know, when I was your age, I didn’t give a [01:12:40] crap.

[TRANSITION]: About this career ready? Man? I was like.

Payman Langroudi: You know, Lewis McKenzie used to say [01:12:45] that the thing that drove him the most in teaching was when one of his [01:12:50] students would teach him. Yeah. You know, and and he used to talk about Depeche and [01:12:55] Millie or whoever it was. Uh, Richard Lee was one of his students. Mhm.

[TRANSITION]: Um, wow.

Payman Langroudi: And, [01:13:00] and and it’s very it’s a very interesting thing because it, it’s a massive thing. [01:13:05] This person who. Who knew less than you now knows more than you. Kind of [01:13:10] idea. And in my world, it happens to me all the time. It’s a bit painful to tell the truth, because I [01:13:15] get some. Some fourth year dental student says, hi, how are you doing? What should I do? [01:13:20] And then I see that same fourth identity and becomes like a one year past PhD. Phd [01:13:25] plus one. And I still feel like I know more about what’s going on than him. And then I see that. And then suddenly [01:13:30] within like three, four years, I see this cat now knows way more about many [01:13:35] things than I know about. And it’s painful. And yet it’s it’s a lovely thing to see, you know, [01:13:40] it’s.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Well, you know, I have a little bit of experience of it from the other end as well, which [01:13:45] was, um, was really cool. So we attended a live lecture by Layne and, and [01:13:50] Mike, who obviously had a massive influence on me. And then, um, during the lecture, [01:13:55] I’m obviously paying attention. And then all of a sudden, like one of my illustrations comes up and I’m like, [01:14:00] that looks familiar. The hell.

Payman Langroudi: Bastard. Yeah.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Um, but then he, you know, [01:14:05] and then he made a joke about exactly what he said, but it was. And then he [01:14:10] said it was me. You know, as in, like acknowledging the fact that, look, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Same movement for.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: The [01:14:15] original. Yeah, exactly. He’s like, you know, an original thought coming out of someone I helped, you [01:14:20] know, come a long way. And and to me, I was like, that was probably again, you know, I’ll [01:14:25] I’ll never get over that in terms of how hot I felt. You know, like, immediate [01:14:30] sweat pouring off you. You’re like, people are looking at you. And I’m like, oh my God. There’s probably like, you know, [01:14:35] one of the coolest things that has ever happened. Um, and so [01:14:40] it’s good to show those people that you have, [01:14:45] you know, paid attention and that you are proud of what they’ve [01:14:50] done. So, you know, seeing it from the other end.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about your week. Like, [01:14:55] how many days are you full on dentist? How many days you sort of work on [01:15:00] teaching?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Um, so at the moment, because we opened so [01:15:05] I opened the practice with, uh, two partners, three partners two [01:15:10] years ago now, two and a half years ago.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so you’re a principal now.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Or at the time? Yes. [01:15:15] So I’m an associate three days a week. Okay. And I work in my practice. It will be [01:15:20] two, two days a week starting June. Where’s that? Uh, Birmingham. [01:15:25] So it’s, um, you know, Boston, sort of civic centre.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Um, so [01:15:30] right now, because of that setup, I’m clinical five days a week.

Payman Langroudi: Um. [01:15:35]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So in terms of trying to [01:15:40] create content, trying to, uh, you know, I was doing it on the train [01:15:45] here. Uh, when I got here, I had half an hour or so, I went into sushi place, sat down, get a laptop out. [01:15:50] You know, in the evenings, you get the laptop out, at lunchtime, you get the laptop out. Uh, especially on the run [01:15:55] up to a course like we got Bullet-proof is out. Uh, we’re doing that in two weeks, and then the first [01:16:00] on triple bill is in June. It’s flat out, you know, blessed. And my wife is amazing. [01:16:05] You know, during the weekend, uh, she’ll take the kids and I’ll get, [01:16:10] you know, laptop time, which is what it is. So that’s that’s why I’ll so dedicate to to [01:16:15] to course content. Um, that I’ll go in on the weekend to record [01:16:20] video of um.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re very, very, very busy.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. Right now, you [01:16:25] know, when we.

Payman Langroudi: Five days a week. It’s a lot. It’s a dentist. Full stop. Even if [01:16:30] you did nothing else. Yeah. So the fact that you’re doing all this stuff as well. [01:16:35] Yeah. And how often are you doing live courses?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So [01:16:40] this year I think we have overall 8 [01:16:45] or 9 dates, which are weekends.

Payman Langroudi: Two days.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. [01:16:50] Yeah, I think so.

Payman Langroudi: And what is bullet-proof and what’s not unshakeable.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So [01:16:55] Bullet-proof used to be called our basics of occlusion course, Right? And [01:17:00] the reason for the name change was that we realised that it wasn’t really [01:17:05] cool name. Well, that number one.

Payman Langroudi: Used it to a much cooler name.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Number one. Yeah. [01:17:10] But also at least what we found from the feedback was that people were leaving the course with a lot [01:17:15] more than just understanding some definitions and understanding, you know, Ontario guidances. [01:17:20] Um, because it’s real life, you know, daily [01:17:25] scenarios. And we do lots of hands on. And like I said before, you [01:17:30] need to be able to relate what you’re learning to, how it’s going to affect your daily [01:17:35] density. So heavy emphasis on that. So bullet-proof is more general [01:17:40] occlusal principles applied to your daily what we call informative dentistry. [01:17:45] So when you’re not changing people’s bites, which is 99% of what we do, you know, your crowns at the [01:17:50] front, your class fours and the sorry crowns at the back, etc.. Yeah, [01:17:55] yeah. Um. Well, [01:18:00] whereas untouchable was, um. It was born [01:18:05] out of again doing, uh, doing a webinar of the same title that just went crazy. [01:18:10] Um, because again, lots of people do amazing [01:18:15] courses like MSM, and then they do a lot of anterior composite [01:18:20] work. And then maybe for some of them they have issues with things chipping, things cracking, [01:18:25] etc.. So I really enjoy anterior composite work, like it’s [01:18:30] probably my favourite thing to do really. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Not for mouth rehab or [01:18:35] something.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: It’s too stressful. Mm, I do them. But [01:18:40] my sweet spot is having two on the go, Max. [01:18:45] Any more than that, it’s just. Yeah, it’s really stressful.

Payman Langroudi: Worrisome? [01:18:50]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. Again, beauty of being a general dentist, right? Um, [01:18:55] I get to cherry pick. So, um. But, yeah, doing your composite work is [01:19:00] the most fun I have in the industry. Um, but [01:19:05] if I was seeing chipping a lot and having constant issues, it wouldn’t be fun. So, [01:19:10] you know, having treated cases with anterior bonding that maybe some [01:19:15] others would have looked at and thought, hmm. You know, I don’t know that this would work. I’m [01:19:20] doing it for the last ten years. Um, I then decided [01:19:25] to sort of distil, sort of go back and distil the things [01:19:30] that maybe I consider in, in risk, assessing those patients [01:19:35] and deciding, okay, yeah, I’ll do it or not. Because sometimes you make these decisions [01:19:40] of intuitively, um, but it’s only when you decide to teach it that you [01:19:45] then have to go back and think critically as to, okay, why did I do it on this patient and not on this patient? Why did I say to [01:19:50] this patient, you need we need to open the vertical or we need to do Dol or we need to do ortho. Whereas [01:19:55] with this patient we were like, okay, yeah, I think I can make it work. And, you know, five, six, ten years later, it’s [01:20:00] still working. Um, so yeah, that was that was really cool to, uh, going back and deciphering [01:20:05] what it is exactly.

Payman Langroudi: How long was it between [01:20:10] the time that you decided we’re going to do this course and you wrote [01:20:15] the content for any. [01:20:20] But let’s let’s talk on cheaper because that’s the one you were discussing.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:20:25] It’s not finished yet. Yeah.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Because it’s never finished. Yeah. That’s the thing. It’s it’s never perfect. [01:20:30] Let’s put it that way.

Payman Langroudi: Are you more Google or are you more Apple? Do you know what I mean? Like like Google will [01:20:35] put out a product almost like it’s unfinished. It’s not a it’s not a, it’s an experimental. [01:20:40] It’s in a way, in a way. And then and then they it’s, [01:20:45] it’s, it’s right as it’s out based on the feedback and make it a better product. [01:20:50] Whereas Apple will only put out a product when they feel like it’s fully ready for market, you know?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. Well, [01:20:55] okay. If you’re on a simple answer, definitely more Apple. Purely because [01:21:00] again, you know, there’s there’s probably two things that I drive jazz crazy about. [01:21:05] It’s flow. There’s one. And the other one is I do [01:21:10] not want any delegate that takes a course to [01:21:15] come out and not be safe or keep themselves safe, [01:21:20] or I don’t want to give them a false sense of security, allowing them to take risks [01:21:25] that might get them into trouble. Right. So my primary focus is [01:21:30] I will teach you what to look out for [01:21:35] in order not to get yourself in hot water. Right. And then we’ll we’ll talk about [01:21:40] the cases you can do. But I will always err on the side of caution. And in that, [01:21:45] in that respect, I’ll say it has to be ready. [01:21:50] You know, it has to be ready, so I won’t put it out there. That’s [01:21:55] the minute. Yeah, but, you know, it has to be. Again. [01:22:00] But not to sound. But it has to be good. [01:22:05] Like.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but there are, there are degrees like I’m thinking about. She’s been writing a porcelain [01:22:10] course for four years now. Yeah. Four years.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Like, because [01:22:15] he is a perfectionist. Right. He and that. That’s kind of gets in the way. Yeah. [01:22:20] Like 100%. Now, when it’s ready, it’s gonna be amazing. I’m sure it’s [01:22:25] a beautiful thing. Yeah.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So the thing is, though, the way you got to look at it is, you [01:22:30] know, let’s let’s say that perfection is 99% [01:22:35] right after year one. He was probably at 97. Yeah, exactly. [01:22:40] Yeah. Right. Let’s let’s call it 90. Yeah, yeah. After year 295. And [01:22:45] it’s tiny incremental gains after that. Yeah, yeah. But I think it’s important.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s a mindset. [01:22:50] It’s a mindset thing. Yeah. Like, some people are built one way. Some people have built another way.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, [01:22:55] I remember he was just a kid, man. The conversation we had about, um, the [01:23:00] his course. I said, look, do whatever you want, but I don’t want a single [01:23:05] slide that is a filler. Mhm. Yeah. And it’s my pet hate. Yeah. [01:23:10] And of course that you can tell the guy, this guy just put that slide in just, just to fill it up. You know just. [01:23:15]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Like wish I had that problem.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah exactly. And then the other thing about of course, [01:23:20] is that really pissed me off, right. I’ll ask you the same question. What grinds your gears about courses [01:23:25] or about dentistry? But what pisses me off, right, is the slide where it’s [01:23:30] just like four bullet points and the guy reads the first one and reads the second one and [01:23:35] reads the third one, which makes me go crazy. I just love him. Just almost like it’s almost like for me [01:23:40] sitting in a GP waiting room. Um, and he’s 40 minutes late and I’m just sitting there [01:23:45] and thinking, oh, my time is being wasted, obviously. Like, I think. What about you? What grinds your gears?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: I [01:23:50] mean, that one definitely does, because I’m like, I can read it. Yeah. So just move on. Um, [01:23:55] so we talked about repetition and it being important. [01:24:00] Too much repetition does annoy me. Okay. If it’s it’s like I get. [01:24:05]

Payman Langroudi: It, I get it.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: I get it. That’s. Yeah. It’s. I had you I remember we had, um. [01:24:10] God bless him. I’m not gonna say his name. We had a tutor at Manchester, [01:24:15] and, um, I mean, the topic itself was a bit boring [01:24:20] anyway.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, what was the topic?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: It was the dental materials.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: But [01:24:25] you know, when you’re trying to explain that maybe something is is [01:24:30] is is a is a ring shape, don’t you understand? [01:24:35] Right. Yeah. But I can then go on to tell you that shaped like a doughnut [01:24:40] or, you know, polos. Do you remember polos like that? Yeah. Or like, um, you know, it [01:24:45] could be like a hula hoop. I get it. Joey. [01:24:50] One of those. So there’s definitely, uh, repetition to reinforce, and [01:24:55] then there’s redundancy after that.

Payman Langroudi: I thought I’d move on button. Yeah, the [01:25:00] whole audience gets a button. If more than 50% press the button, the slide just moves forward by itself. [01:25:05]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: That’d be so.

Payman Langroudi: Cool. You know, like, whatever. Like, say, this is a 75% move on [01:25:10] course. Yeah, yeah, 75%. Push the button. It’s moving on. Yeah. And no one should feel [01:25:15] bad about, like, even the speakers shouldn’t feel bad. It’s just the way it is. Yeah. You know.

[BOTH]: I think it’ll be a lot of fun.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Very [01:25:20] interesting.

[BOTH]: Content.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: But now.

Payman Langroudi: What else? What else? What [01:25:25] about but around, like, fashion and dentistry? Instagram. Like what [01:25:30] pisses you off? Because I know what makes you happy, right? We all get a lot of value [01:25:35] from it. Right. You wouldn’t have met Michael as these people if it wasn’t for social media. [01:25:40] Yeah, but what pisses you off about what people do? Like. Like, let me give you an example. I [01:25:45] don’t like it when people do composite veneers and.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: They give it a.

Payman Langroudi: Name. No, [01:25:50] no. Definitely that. But I’ve been guilty of it myself too. Yeah. You know, in [01:25:55] business, you end up giving things a name that already exists. Yeah. Yeah. Um, if [01:26:00] you talk about Nano. That one. Um, yeah. They did. They trademarked it, actually. But the [01:26:05] question of no when someone does composite is actually does actual harm. Mhm. [01:26:10] Yeah. And I’m not talking staining I’m like sometimes you see like ledges and things like you know where the, where [01:26:15] the uh, line angles are clearly not going in getting [01:26:20] straight up because the material’s spread laterally.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: I literally had.

Payman Langroudi: To I mean, [01:26:25] you see that sometimes.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Right? Yeah, I just removed. Um, some [01:26:30] some terribly done so of composite. Upper eight units. [01:26:35] Lower eight units. I mean, the lawyers didn’t need it at all to the extent that we just removed it. I’m just gonna wait in the teeth. That’s [01:26:40] it. Boom. They’re straight. They’re perfect teeth. Um. The [01:26:45] uppers. Uh, unfortunately, uh, you know, the patient feels too self-conscious [01:26:50] to have them completely removed. So, again, I just removed all the ledges, reshaped everything. Then [01:26:55] we’re going to go through a phase of oral hygiene, get the gums sorted. Um, really? [01:27:00] She could benefit some ortho first, but she’s absolutely. No. Um, and [01:27:05] then we’re just gonna redo them. Um, but, you know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:27:10] upsetting.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: It is. And the thing is, like, I, I personally [01:27:15] do tread carefully in terms of trying not to throw people under the [01:27:20] bus.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s so important. Also important.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: But that was probably the [01:27:25] hardest time in terms of how I, uh, [01:27:30] chose my words. Right. Um, unfortunately, the, you know, [01:27:35] I, I thought, you know, at this point with this level that [01:27:40] that shouldn’t be done, that you’re doing harm to a patient. But the problem is that the dentists [01:27:45] are not there anymore. You know that practice, whatever it is, is not there anymore.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:27:50] do you see a lot of turkey patients?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Some are not. Not a ton. [01:27:55] I see some.

[TRANSITION]: You get referred.

Payman Langroudi: Patients for, like, difficult occlusal [01:28:00] situations from all of your disciples.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. I mean surrounding [01:28:05] clinicians and stuff that. No. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what amount of your [01:28:10] work is referral based?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: No, not a massive amount. I still [01:28:15] probably get a lot more off of social media than Instagram and stuff.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, really?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Um, [01:28:20] patients. Mhm.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah, yeah. Referrals are probably I’d say in the last [01:28:25] month probably 2 or 3.

[TRANSITION]: Um still. [01:28:30]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yes. Yeah. But again not all of it is a look. Treat this patient. [01:28:35] Some of it is you know this patient’s got like joy ache and stuff and I don’t [01:28:40] know what to do. Uh, or, um, you know, the patient has what [01:28:45] we do get a lot of is they get referred in for endo because they’re a specialist end on the practice, and [01:28:50] then the patient goes back to their dentist, and then their dentist says, oh, I can’t restore [01:28:55] this. So now they’re pissed off. They ring around the dentist and they go see Mahmud, [01:29:00] and they come to me. And then, you know, we look at sorting it that way.

Payman Langroudi: So there’s five days you’re [01:29:05] doing quite intense kind of work.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: I you know, I wouldn’t say all of it. I [01:29:10] wouldn’t say all of it is is is is intense. Um, and [01:29:15] that’s kind of why I like having two bigger cases on the go at [01:29:20] any one point, like my max. Like, I, I do like to have, you know, half [01:29:25] my time spent doing something that’s, you know, bonding in and only, you know, you I book my book [01:29:30] 50 minutes for me bonding in a single only. Oh, really? Um.

Payman Langroudi: The whole thing.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah, [01:29:35] yeah, yeah. So it’s it’s nice. Relaxing. You know, you’ve done it a billion times before. [01:29:40] Um, you can be proud of it at the end. And it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Not. What do you book for the for the prep [01:29:45] visit? 90 minutes. So 90 plus 50, 140 [01:29:50] minutes, which is two hours and 20. And then what do [01:29:55] you charge for that?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Uh, 9.95.

Payman Langroudi: That’s in context with the amount [01:30:00] of time you’re spending. That 9.95 is not as expensive as it sounds.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: It’s not.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:30:05] not.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: It’s not.

Payman Langroudi: But Birmingham is, well, quite difficult town to to to [01:30:10] sell expensive stuff. No.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So where I work in Telford.

Payman Langroudi: Telford. [01:30:15]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Is, is, is the practice. I’m an associate at the practice is Birmingham but the one in Telford. [01:30:20] Uh, people are okay paying for quality.

Payman Langroudi: And each [01:30:25] person must be the same, right? Isn’t that the move. [01:30:30]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: You.

Payman Langroudi: Attract? Isn’t that the Mayfair of Birmingham?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Uh.

[BOTH]: Sort of. Yeah.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: But. [01:30:35] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So. Telford. Northern better than Edgbaston.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: They’re very [01:30:40] they’re very different clientele. So the Telford patients I get are probably [01:30:45] a bit more mature, a bit more, uh, established. Um, [01:30:50] there is wealth around the area, but not, you know, not everywhere, not in little pockets. [01:30:55] Um, but this practice has been there for 50 years, so it’s got a reputation [01:31:00] for quality. Um, so people come in and they’re happy [01:31:05] to pay a reasonable amount. You know, I’m not going to extort them, but [01:31:10] for good quality stuff. But they’re not the type of patient that’s going to be [01:31:15] like, oh, this onley that you put on my Severn is half a shade out, you [01:31:20] know. Exactly. So that’s. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Older patients. [01:31:25] Yeah. Yeah. Older patients are the best man.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: They’re great. They’re great. You know I love doing, you [01:31:30] know, my composite veneers, my composite work. And you know that stuff. You need [01:31:35] to get it right. But I think if I did it all day, every [01:31:40] day, doing five days a week, I’d be really stressed out. So I think the [01:31:45] fact that, yeah, I do five days a week is a lot, but a lot of it is [01:31:50] on a well-established list that I do. Uh, [01:31:55] I’ve looked after for ten years. So good.

Payman Langroudi: So good. You know, respectful. [01:32:00] Yeah. Uh, they somehow stuff works on them. They don’t have, like, hypersensitivity and stuff. Yeah. [01:32:05] You know, like, they’ve got very small pops, you know, the secondary dentine.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. Pops are in their knees. [01:32:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. If, if even something I remember, like a temporary would fall off. Wouldn’t even bother [01:32:15] telling me I fell a week ago. Yeah, I loved working [01:32:20] with those. They’ve got money. Let’s not forget that in the current economy. Right? It’s the younger [01:32:25] ones in trouble. Yeah. Let’s get to the darker part of the pod. [01:32:30] We like to talk about clinical mistakes. What [01:32:35] comes to mind when I say clinical error? Something we can all learn from.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Um, [01:32:40] okay. I mean, I thought about this, obviously. I’ve [01:32:45] made a few. A couple of them are more severe than others, so probably the first one that [01:32:50] I remember this was probably like, I don’t know, 3 or 4 years out. And, um, I was trying [01:32:55] to take, uh, an upper. There was an upper lateral doing extraction, and I had an immediate [01:33:00] denture, single tooth, immediate denture to go. And, um, I was struggling. And, [01:33:05] you know, when you struggle, you start getting frustrated, and then you start just. I’m just gonna [01:33:10] shove this luxation in and wherever and just. Yeah. [01:33:15] That face.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve been there. I’ve been.

[BOTH]: There. Yeah.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: And then off [01:33:20] goes the central. Broken off [01:33:25] the right gum line.

Payman Langroudi: What did you say?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Uh, [01:33:30] I said I’m sorry.

Payman Langroudi: And how did the patient take?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So [01:33:35] luckily, I know this is probably why you’re not gonna let him get away with it, but the patient was [01:33:40] fantastic.

Payman Langroudi: He was long term patient.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Viewers know I’d only been graduated [01:33:45] a few years. Oh, well, so I think that’s what he. Like, [01:33:50] used as a reason within himself not to get angry. [01:33:55] He’s like, look, you know, you’re you’re young.

Payman Langroudi: Listen, man. Some people, some people, some people handle shit [01:34:00] in one way and other people handle it in others. So you lucked out. I’m not. I’m [01:34:05] not.

[BOTH]: Gonna.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah, I knew you wouldn’t.

[BOTH]: That’s what I’ll tell you anyway, because it was a goodie.

Payman Langroudi: Its a.

[BOTH]: Goodie. It [01:34:10] was like, you.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Know, heart in my balls for, you know, like a good [01:34:15] 30 minutes trying to explain to this patient what I’ve done.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s an interesting thing. Like [01:34:20] when you extract a tooth. Now, I bet.

[BOTH]: You’re so.

Payman Langroudi: Careful paying.

[BOTH]: Attention. [01:34:25]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: To that. Oh my God. Yeah. Ever since, that’s the best way to learn something is to [01:34:30] go for one time. Yeah. You never forget that lesson.

Payman Langroudi: What about another one? The one I am going to accept. [01:34:35] You seemed like you know this part of the show quite well.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Um. I mean, maybe you’ll accept this [01:34:40] one. So I will normally do my preps under rubber dam.

Payman Langroudi: Preps [01:34:45] of all sorts. Yeah, yeah.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Usually split down. And not because I’m some [01:34:50] sort of high, mighty biomimetic adhesive. Blah. No, it’s just easier.

Payman Langroudi: You’re comfortable [01:34:55] with.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: It? Yeah. It’s just easier to not have to worry about the tongue, the cheek, blah, blah, blah. Okay. Anyway, on this [01:35:00] one patient, I didn’t. I don’t know why I can’t remember. And I was prepping a lower six [01:35:05] and I was trying to like keep this tongue out of the way, etc., etc. I nick [01:35:10] the floor of the mouth with my bur, and honestly, it looked like his intestines [01:35:15] had spilled out just blood.

Payman Langroudi: You know.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: There was blood, but it was [01:35:20] like, you know, all the veins, like you see all the veins in it all like just spilled out from his gap [01:35:25] and it just looked just disgusting as his veins and blood and [01:35:30] and I’m, like, trying to, like, poke it back in with my mirror and I’m just panicking. Obviously [01:35:35] the patients had an ID block, so I have no idea what’s going on.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So [01:35:40] I’m like, okay, look, I just. Yeah, I had to. So I was like, sorry I [01:35:45] caught your tongue. I’m gonna try and get to stop the bleeding. So, uh, you know, we do it with [01:35:50] cotton for a while. Stop the bleeding. I’ll put a suture in. Put the suture in. [01:35:55] I still have to finish. Like putting a temporary on and stuff. So put the suture in, and, [01:36:00] um. And the patient’s, he’s already like. He’s a he’s a lovely guy, but he’s already, like, very [01:36:05] nervous. He’s not you know, he doesn’t take dentistry easily. So, um, [01:36:10] so then he’s, uh, he’s he’s [01:36:15] not entirely sure what’s happened. Okay. But he’s he’s obviously I’m I’m warning him about the post-op pain, [01:36:20] the bleeding, blah, blah. And then the the next, the next day, uh, I ring [01:36:25] him, so I give him my personal phone number, like. Like I’m gonna ring you tomorrow. I’ll ring him. And, um. [01:36:30] And he was like, yeah, you know. It feels a bit weird, but it’s it’s [01:36:35] not that bad. So anyway, I keep reviewing him and stuff and it heals in the end. But [01:36:40] his, like, I can tell that that really [01:36:45] knocked his confidence in me. And that then by osmosis, [01:36:50] knocked my confidence in myself. Right. Um, it took [01:36:55] me a while to, to get over that, especially since I had something similar happen on [01:37:00] a different patient. But this was after I fitted a crown and I was trying to get some, uh, some excess [01:37:05] cement out and use one of those serrated strips. And again, you know, you get frustrated. You can’t get over there. [01:37:10] Overdid it.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah, yeah. But that was pretty bad. Like, [01:37:15] it was pretty deep. And the the the one.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:37:20] do you say while, like, how long did it take you to get over there.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Oh good. Like looking six [01:37:25] months a year. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: How [01:37:30] interesting. Mhm.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: And then with this guy that that cut here. So I did again the same thing [01:37:35] with sutured up gave him a ring and uh on the phone he’s fine. And [01:37:40] then the next day he writes a complaint letter to my practice manager. So [01:37:45] then I go speak to my manager. And I was like so odd because I spoke to him on the phone and he was fine, like, it was [01:37:50] really nice. And, um, so anyway, we go through the [01:37:55] whole complaint procedure, blah, blah, blah. Um, I give him, um, the crime for free, [01:38:00] etc. but the one thing that stuck with me was he he spoke to my practice manager and he said, [01:38:05] and he asked her, you know, when Mahmud rang me the next day, was that genuine?

[TRANSITION]: Mhm. [01:38:10] I was like.

Payman Langroudi: That hurts huh? Yeah it did. [01:38:15]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: It did. But at the same time it made me think okay. [01:38:20] Was it genuine? Like if I had to assign a proportion, you know, if you put yourself in my [01:38:25] position and you have to assign a proportion to how much of it was pure [01:38:30] offensive. Yeah, how much it was purely caring about this other human being, being hurt [01:38:35] by something I did versus okay, well, I need to check on him. [01:38:40] You know, it’ll it’ll work better. It’ll [01:38:45] look better if if I do that versus if I don’t do that, you know, can [01:38:50] I sit here and say that none of it was.

Payman Langroudi: Do you not routinely call patients? [01:38:55]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: We do. If it’s a like if I’ve done like a big procedure or something. Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s [01:39:00] one of those.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: A lot of the time I’ll get someone to call them. Yeah. Or. Because, [01:39:05] you know, I’ll do it. But obviously in this case it was it was more it [01:39:10] was not just how are you doing? It’s a you know, how is it? How was the pain? You know, I’m really [01:39:15] sorry this happened. You know, I was just reiterating the same stuff I’ve said already, but [01:39:20] can I hand on heart say that none of it was self-preservation. No, I don’t [01:39:25] think anyone can. Really?

Payman Langroudi: So what?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So. Yeah. Yeah, it doesn’t matter. [01:39:30] But, you know, the fact that he thought that.

Payman Langroudi: Well, there’s your ethical sort of sort [01:39:35] of, uh, basis of your ethical sort of behaviour. Where does it [01:39:40] come from? Are you religious?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: I am again, not like, [01:39:45] uh, I’m not super strict, but I follow like I’m a muslim. I [01:39:50] follow, uh, uh, Islam now do I do [01:39:55] I feel that’s the the basis for my.

Payman Langroudi: Not necessarily. Right. [01:40:00]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: You know, it’s a good question, isn’t it? It’s like if you take a bunch of people, [01:40:05] new newborns and and not give them any guidance, would ethics [01:40:10] and morality represent what we have?

Payman Langroudi: You know, what I’m saying is this notion [01:40:15] of if, let’s say, if there was no ethics on morality at [01:40:20] all, like you give, You give zero. And then what would happen? And [01:40:25] almost we have this weird understanding that if there was none, we’d all go kill each other. [01:40:30] Yeah. Whereas the elephants are walking all across. They’re not killing each other. [01:40:35] Yeah. The snakes and the fish are in the in the river. They’re not killing each other. [01:40:40] Yeah, they might be killing other animals. Yeah. And what I’m saying is that there is a species related [01:40:45] cooperation that species have with each other. And you don’t [01:40:50] need to be taught ethics and morality for a species to get on with each other. Doesn’t [01:40:55] need teaching in a in a in a book. And it’s important. Yeah. Because we almost default into this [01:41:00] idea of if there was no ethics, we’d fuck each other up. But that’s [01:41:05] not how species behave.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Well, I mean.

Payman Langroudi: And by the way, I think when.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: You when the [01:41:10] species.

Payman Langroudi: When there is ethics, we fuck each other up. Let’s not forget that too.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: But I don’t know that [01:41:15] it’s species wide, because, I mean, just look at the history of.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:41:20] know, wars and things.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. People, you know, basically just going and invading [01:41:25] another country to take all its resources.

Payman Langroudi: I know, but.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Off.

Payman Langroudi: Of often based on religions [01:41:30] and things as well. Yeah. Like it’s almost like it’s almost like God is on my side, that thing.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Well, [01:41:35] that that may be used as an excuse a lot of the time, but I think a [01:41:40] lot of it is it’s wealth power, it’s resources. It’s what’s [01:41:45] going to make me richer, you know. And, um, those people have something that can [01:41:50] make me richer. And I have bigger guns, so.

Payman Langroudi: That’s always going to.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Work. Yeah. Uh, [01:41:55] so, yeah, maybe it’s not species wide. Maybe it’s more, I don’t [01:42:00] know. Oh, yeah. Interesting. You said it’s [01:42:05] a dark part of the deep part.

Payman Langroudi: But what’s a [01:42:10] the best lecture you’ve ever been to? What comes to mind? Who [01:42:15] gave the best lecture?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Um, for me, I [01:42:20] think Frank Speer probably comes to mind when I think about someone [01:42:25] who has talked some of the most sense [01:42:30] I have heard.

Payman Langroudi: Consistently for a long time. Right.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:42:35] And his his pragmatic approach to things just [01:42:40] always worked for me and has always made sense in my head.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve not done [01:42:45] the continuum. You’ve just had the CDs and things.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: I’ve not visited Scottsdale, but [01:42:50] yeah, CDs. And then, you know, I’m part of their online stuff. Up until now. [01:42:55]

Payman Langroudi: Such.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: A great deal on most of it. But, you know, you feel sometimes like you want to just give back. Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. [01:43:00] In a way, yeah. But it’s such great stuff. Um. And yeah, he’s always [01:43:05] just talked sense I found.

Payman Langroudi: And what [01:43:10] is a course that if, if, if you had no time and money constraints at all. [01:43:15]

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: That would go.

Payman Langroudi: On, of course. Would you jump to first?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Could [01:43:20] I pick more than one?

[TRANSITION]: Sure.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: I go on, uh, [01:43:25] the panky and the choice continuance. Because. [01:43:30] Obviously, they’ve been [01:43:35] around a long time. Uh, panky. Specifically, they there’s a lot [01:43:40] more than just teeth. Yeah. Then they talk about.

Payman Langroudi: Personal [01:43:45] control and finances. Lots of stuff. Lots and lots of nice stuff.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: And and and ultimately, [01:43:50] you become part of something quite, quite big, quite well established. [01:43:55] Quite, you know, the network uniform. Uh, but also the ideas that you’d get, I [01:44:00] think would be amazing, you know. Um, so, so those two and being [01:44:05] in that space in terms of, you know, being an educator, being that sort of stuff is [01:44:10] in no way for me has ever has ever signalled that I should. [01:44:15] Okay, well, don’t go on courses anymore. No, no, because.

Payman Langroudi: Quite.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: The opposite. You know, what are people going to [01:44:20] think you’re going to learn? Why should I learn from you know that doesn’t work like that. You know.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:44:25] was to an illustrator came on MSM, but I have not seen [01:44:30] anyone take as many notes. You know, we’ve we’ve we’ve trained 1750 [01:44:35] dentists. I just found out. Yeah. Out of those 1100 dentists. Yeah. And [01:44:40] your sister took the most notes. He was just busy. Busy. No no no [01:44:45] no no no. Says and you realise, you know that that that cat doesn’t need to take notes. He’s doing [01:44:50] full mouth rehab every day. He’s not doing much composite. Yeah. Like he he was there for the [01:44:55] curiosity. Yeah. You know and I think I think teachers [01:45:00] should go on as many courses as possible.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah I mean I do I, I aim to go on, [01:45:05] uh, you know, a few a year at least. And, you know, I’ve always got a composite one on there [01:45:10] and I’ll always, you know, someone will be like, aren’t you gonna. Because I’m [01:45:15] hopefully at some point I’m gonna teach you myself. Aren’t you gonna teach you? I was like, so I’m [01:45:20] not gonna do with it. No. On the contrary. Um, well, the one thing I do try and do, though, is like, if I am [01:45:25] gonna go on one, I always let the person know in terms of like, hey, uh, [01:45:30] are you.

Payman Langroudi: This is who.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: I am because I’m. No, not. This is who I am.

Payman Langroudi: No, this is this is what I plan to do.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah, [01:45:35] I plan on some, you know, like entrepreneurs coming out. There’s going to be some competent teaching there. You [01:45:40] know, just so you know, I’m not intending on stealing stuff.

Payman Langroudi: That’s good.

[TRANSITION]: Man.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: But. [01:45:45] Yeah, exactly. I thought, you know, if I don’t say anything, they might think, oh, I came and, you know, that’s like, [01:45:50] that’s mine. Yeah. Uh, whereas, you know, if I say.

Payman Langroudi: What about which book or paper was [01:45:55] like a stand up.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Um, I [01:46:00] can’t quote you the reference for the paper. Um, but I can tell you [01:46:05] what happened. And, uh, this is one that really did change my mind. Um, and it was, [01:46:10] um, you know, I was looking at We’re going to seclusion. Right? So, uh, looking [01:46:15] at group function versus canine guidance in people, right. And they found and they the way they looked at it was [01:46:20] they, they they took 15 people and it’s not massive sample size, but they took 15 people that have naturally [01:46:25] occurring canine guidance. So when they grind left and right, they’re just on their canines. And they took another 15 people [01:46:30] who have naturally occurring group function. Right. Um, and what [01:46:35] they did was they, uh, checked their EMG levels for the, the muscles and how [01:46:40] hard they’re firing or whatever. And surprisingly, they found that there [01:46:45] was really no difference. Right. So we are traditionally [01:46:50] taught, right. If you give people canine guidance, [01:46:55] you will shut the muscles down and therefore they won’t grind as hard and therefore your restorations [01:47:00] will be protected. Whereas if you give them group function, you know the muscles are going to go [01:47:05] crazy and stuff’s going to break. But the evidence doesn’t necessarily support [01:47:10] that. And on the flip side, you’ve got where you do have group function. Remember [01:47:15] there’s more than one tooth taking that load. So if there’s two teeth taking the load, [01:47:20] you have half the load on each tooth there or thereabouts. Right. Um, so [01:47:25] I stopped being scared of group function. And now I use it as [01:47:30] a tool when I need to. Right. So if I’ve got a [01:47:35] compromised canine or, you know, or if I think this patient [01:47:40] really grinds their teeth quite hard, I want to spread the load as much as possible. You know.

Payman Langroudi: Canine is an amazing [01:47:45] thing, though. Yeah. I feel like there’s mysteries in the canine. Yeah. Because it’s.

[TRANSITION]: It’s not a mystery. [01:47:50]

Payman Langroudi: Though. Well, what I mean is, like the PDL of the canine is different to the PDL [01:47:55] of every other tooth because the number of times you see only canines left. Yeah, that like, [01:48:00] it’s a stronger tooth than the rest in every way. Yeah.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So there’s lots [01:48:05] to it. So there’s the bone around it. Okay. It’s buttressed, so there’s more bone around it. Um, [01:48:10] look at the shape of the palatal surface [01:48:15] of a central versus a canine. The central is much more concave, [01:48:20] right? Whereas a canine can actually have a convexity in it, which is going to again, be [01:48:25] more resistant. Right. Um, it’s in the corner of the mouth. Now [01:48:30] that means it’s furthest away from the TMJ. But also it means that [01:48:35] when the patient grinds side to side. And the reason grinding [01:48:40] is mostly side to side is because not to get too deep into it. But you’re again, [01:48:45] there’s no proof of this. This is my logical thinking is if you go [01:48:50] purely forwards, both of your condyles are out of their socket. So [01:48:55] you have basically two of the joints sitting on slippery slopes. [01:49:00] Right. It’s hard to exert any force without having the kernels [01:49:05] just slip back. Whereas when you go one side, there’s one condyle that is still braced in the socket, so [01:49:10] it gives you a point to push against.

Payman Langroudi: Throughout this conversation I’ve been moving my jaws around. Yeah.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: So [01:49:15] you see actually that most grinding is left and right. Very little of it is purely forward. And [01:49:20] the other thing is to do a purely forward motion. You need both lateral pterygoid to contract nearly at the same time, which [01:49:25] is not which is a coordinated movement, because bruxism is an uncoordinated movement anyway. [01:49:30] So again, if you’re going to go mostly side to side, and our materials handle [01:49:35] stress best when they are compressed, you want the load to go on the tooth that’s on [01:49:40] the side, because then the material is being squeezed rather than being flexed. So [01:49:45] again, it’s one of those where we stumbled on canine guidance and we [01:49:50] made it into this, like panacea, but for the wrong reasons, [01:49:55] or at least the wrong thinking. But there is, you know, I have a slide. And of course I was [01:50:00] like, why is canine still a thing? You know, because the guy who, you know, came up with [01:50:05] the idea, Mikko, Amico basically just looked at the skulls of a bunch of dead people, and he found the ones that have [01:50:10] canine guidance. Didn’t have worn canines, but did they have canine guns [01:50:15] because they didn’t have worn canines, or did they have unworn canines because they had canine guidance? [01:50:20] Mhm. Right. Chicken or egg? Um, but it just so happens [01:50:25] that actually there is a good reason for why the canine is useful in those situations. But [01:50:30] it’s not magical. It’s logical.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ever looked at animal teeth like [01:50:35] it’s really interesting right.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Like, yeah, it’s designed to stick it in flesh [01:50:40] and then pull. Yeah. So obviously it’s designed to take that lateral load.

Payman Langroudi: But which is if you [01:50:45] look at like a dog’s teeth or whatever. Wolf’s teeth. Yeah. It’s a whole other [01:50:50] like it’s, it’s.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: It’s, it’s compared.

Payman Langroudi: To everything. Times the size of every other. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. [01:50:55] We come to the end of our time, man. But I could keep talking forever.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. Me too. Man, this was fun. [01:51:00]

Payman Langroudi: The final question is, are the same every time? Yeah. Fancy [01:51:05] dinner party, fantasy, fantasy dinner party. Three [01:51:10] guests, dead or alive. Who do you have?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Um, yeah, you might remember that. Obviously, we had this [01:51:15] planned, uh, for late last year. Mhm. And then, um, [01:51:20] uh, I had to cancel the first one that was set up, uh, because we lost my dad. [01:51:25] Yeah. Suddenly sort of passed away. Um, so, you know, I [01:51:30] changed the list I had from back then to include him, uh, so [01:51:35] that I can, you know, catch him up on what I’ve been up to and stuff. And. And I don’t think [01:51:40] any of us, uh, live our lives without sort of any regrets and stuff. So, [01:51:45] you know, whether it’s something you should have said or something you should have done, or something you shouldn’t have said or shouldn’t have [01:51:50] done and given the chance to either, you know, rectify [01:51:55] some of that. I don’t I don’t think I’d let let that go. So I’d have him. [01:52:00] Um, and it’s even the second [01:52:05] person. I was on the original list anyway, but it has even more meaning now and I’ll explain [01:52:10] why. But it would be David Attenborough. So again, growing up, it was one of those things that my [01:52:15] dad and I bonded on. You know, I was talking about my son and how me and him always loved to talk about basketball. It was just something we bond over [01:52:20] again, like nature shows and stuff like that and Top Gear, everything else was just two things of me and my dad always [01:52:25] watched together, so that’d be cool, because also, I mean, imagine the stories the guy like David [01:52:30] Attenborough was just unbelievable.

Payman Langroudi: It could be Prime Minister tomorrow if you want.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: To easily.

Payman Langroudi: Vote for everyone [01:52:35] easily.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Um, and then the last one was a little bit more tricky. But [01:52:40] again, um, I think, I think I, [01:52:45] you know, take it back to my family in a way, something I could then speak to with about [01:52:50] my, uh, with my son about would be I’d have Michael Jordan.

Payman Langroudi: So, uh. [01:52:55]

Mahmoud Ibrahim: You know, the guy was an is, uh, a legend, uh, in every [01:53:00] sense of the word. But also he wasn’t universally [01:53:05] loved. You know, in terms of his team-mates, it was a hard person [01:53:10] to, to, to be with in terms of being being his team-mate being, um, [01:53:15] uh, being someone he relied on. You know, he held [01:53:20] himself to such a high degree that it’s very hard to keep up with that. [01:53:25]

Payman Langroudi: Obsession comes with sacrifice, man. You know, like, you know, it’s just you know it. You [01:53:30] know it. Yeah. It’s.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah, I’m sure there’s plenty of people [01:53:35] out there that are both very successful and very good people [01:53:40] and good with the relationships and stuff. But I do see a bit of a trend [01:53:45] where the people who are exceptional.

Payman Langroudi: You know, become the best in [01:53:50] the world by acting like everyone else. You have to act very differently to anyone else. Right. And [01:53:55] that causes problems.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. And the amount of self-belief, I think, is where [01:54:00] I would like, want to maybe like pick his brain a little bit because, you [01:54:05] know, I’ve I’ve again it’s one of those where it’s almost a superpower. [01:54:10] Like having that much belief in yourself is amazing, you know. And [01:54:15] uh, it can it can allow you to do things other people wouldn’t even try. So, [01:54:20] um, yeah, I don’t know how much fun the guests will have with each other, but I’ll have [01:54:25] a great time with it.

Payman Langroudi: Who was the fourth that got kicked out? Do you remember?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Um. [01:54:30]

Payman Langroudi: Never mind.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: I don’t remember. No.

[BOTH]: I wasn’t that [01:54:35] good. Clarity.

Payman Langroudi: Final question. On your deathbed, [01:54:40] surrounded by your loved ones. Three pieces [01:54:45] of advice. And people take this differently. Like it could be I did [01:54:50] this. You do it, too. Or it could be, I wish I did this. You [01:54:55] do it.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: That’s a mix of both, I think the [01:55:00] one it would be the you [01:55:05] know, the pursuit of excellence in anything can be its own reward. But [01:55:10] at the same time, it might open doors for you don’t even know exist at this point. [01:55:15] You know, so I look back at my own experience where, you know, when I was [01:55:20] studying, you know, going down these deep rabbit holes and becoming obsessed with [01:55:25] occlusion dentistry and just getting better at it. I didn’t know that I was someday going to [01:55:30] teach. Like, if you told me ten years ago you were going to maybe start teaching, I would have laughed in [01:55:35] your face, you know, like, nah. Um, so you just never know. [01:55:40] Second piece of advice is one I am giving them because [01:55:45] maybe I’m not very good at it. Uh, but that is. Don’t [01:55:50] wait for. Life [01:55:55] to be perfect, or are there [01:56:00] to be no more challenges for you to enjoy your life? Because [01:56:05] life isn’t the stuff you do between these challenges. It is the challenges, right? So [01:56:10] try and find time. I’m really not good at that.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s so easy to say when [01:56:15] I sell the business I will be this happy guy or whatever. Yeah, like so [01:56:20] easy to say that.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: And even on smaller things, you know, when we’re done with this house, one of the kitchen when [01:56:25] I’ve, when this practice is set up, when I’ve written this course, once I’ve done this and it’s always something else, [01:56:30] you know, and, uh, so very true. Don’t wait. Um, the last one [01:56:35] again, I think is, is is really important. I think I’m reasonably good at this, but it’s [01:56:40] take your work seriously, but don’t take yourself too seriously. You know, [01:56:45] like, try and be the best that you can be, but [01:56:50] do it humbly, you know, don’t don’t think you’re all that, Um, [01:56:55] you know, strive, try and be the one who wins the prize. But if you, you [01:57:00] know, you trip up, getting, uh, onto that stage to try to accept it, you [01:57:05] trip, just own it, you know? Laugh along with everybody else because [01:57:10] there’s no point in taking it too seriously. You’re not. Not [01:57:15] all that.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not all that. The lovely way to [01:57:20] end it. Do you know Gary Vee? He talks about that, that idea of, [01:57:25] hey, if someone if something fails and someone attacks you, don’t worry about [01:57:30] it. But at the same time, as people are pumping you up that don’t get high on that supply [01:57:35] either. Yeah, it’s very true. Very, very true. It’s a massive pleasure, man. Really, really [01:57:40] enjoyed it.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah. Me too man.

Payman Langroudi: Really good. I hope we do it again. Yeah. And good luck with the, [01:57:45] uh, on breakable. Unachievable. It sounds a bit like [01:57:50] that Nicholas Taleb. Antifragile.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: But that’s Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:57:55] a nice word.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Yeah.

[BOTH]: What’s your [01:58:00] name?

Mahmoud Ibrahim: Names? Uh, probably not the best thing [01:58:05] about it, but it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks so much.

[BOTH]: For doing this.

Mahmoud Ibrahim: No. Thanks, man.

[VOICE]: This [01:58:10] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go [01:58:15] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:58:20] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [01:58:25]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole [01:58:30] thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to [01:58:35] what we had to say and what our guests had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out [01:58:40] of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing, and if you [01:58:45] would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much [01:58:50] for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.