Month: September 2025

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[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:00:40] in dentistry. Your hosts [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great [00:00:50] pleasure to welcome Sara Herndon and Mohan Montazeri onto the podcast [00:00:55] to Iranians who qualified in Hungary. Yes. And, uh, [00:01:00] found their way over to the NHS. And now to private practice. [00:01:05] It’s a lovely story of qualifying and travelling [00:01:10] and getting over here. Um, before we do anything else, let me just quickly ask you this question. [00:01:15] Had you been to the UK before you finally came? No, [00:01:20] it was your first time.

Sara Khandan: It was literally the first time. So we had no idea [00:01:25] about what we’re getting ourselves into. Not that we regret anything, but, um, it was [00:01:30] really hard, um, getting obviously we it was the visa situation. [00:01:35] So we had to get through visa to come and check everything out. It [00:01:40] was going to take a long time. And, um, we thought that it’s just not worth it because, um, [00:01:45] getting a skilled worker visa was way faster. Uh, and we were like, let’s, [00:01:50] let’s just go with, with, with the working visa and let’s get that sorted, because we knew [00:01:55] that we want to go somewhere and we’re better than UK because obviously we [00:02:00] could speak English here and everywhere else in the in Europe was a little bit harder because we [00:02:05] had to pass a very hard language exams.

Payman Langroudi: And had you been to the UK before?

Mahan Mohaghegh: No, [00:02:10] no, this was my first time as well. And yeah, I think to be honest, [00:02:15] I feel like, uh, like for anyone else who [00:02:20] is planning to like go through the journey again, I think it would be better [00:02:25] to. Yeah, at least once to come and visit UK before. [00:02:30] Yeah, I would say. But for us, I mean eventually it all went quite [00:02:35] smoothly. But yeah, I think it would be better to. Yeah, [00:02:40] at least have a visit and see the situations. And I [00:02:45] mean like at the end of the day, even if you see and like uh, visit [00:02:50] UK before, still if you try to it’s different basically to [00:02:55] work and to come as a visitor and to start working and living in a country. [00:03:00]

Payman Langroudi: For sure.

Mahan Mohaghegh: But yeah, I.

Sara Khandan: Think we were lucky because we chose the right place based [00:03:05] on what we wanted, because we did a lot of research though. So, um, we [00:03:10] chose South and it was quite what we wanted. So we were lucky in that aspect. [00:03:15] But I think for anyone who’s going through the same journey, as Mohan said, it’s I think [00:03:20] way more beneficial if they would come, have a look first, decide where they want to go [00:03:25] and then come and settle as someone who’s going to be working here.

Payman Langroudi: So what made [00:03:30] you go to Hungary in the first place? Why? Why not study in Iran?

Sara Khandan: Um, [00:03:35] I personally, my family wanted me to [00:03:40] come out of Iran, so, um, the they wanted me to experience [00:03:45] a different system, get to know world a little bit better because I was living in Malaysia, [00:03:50] um, for, for a few years as well. So I was quite used to multicultural [00:03:55] environment. And, um, we had an agent in Iran [00:04:00] who was working with that university that we went to, and he was quite good at [00:04:05] the paperworks and he would do everything very smoothly. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: And you knew in your mind [00:04:10] that you could then go practice anywhere in Europe after that.

[TRANSITION]: Right? No. Not really.

Sara Khandan: No. [00:04:15] So, uh, we I was like, let’s go step by step. Let’s just first go for [00:04:20] the uni because we did search. I actually did search a lot of places. And [00:04:25] the basically Hungary was the easiest option because [00:04:30] it was an English, um, course. Dental course, I knew that I wanted definitely [00:04:35] to be a dentist. Um, it was an English course and the agent would do all the paperwork. [00:04:40] So it’s sort of everything clicked together. And.

Payman Langroudi: And when was Malaysia? What was that in [00:04:45] between?

Sara Khandan: Um, that was a few years during my secondary school, uh, when I was [00:04:50] around 11, 12. But after that I went back to Iran again. And then I finished my high school. [00:04:55] And after that I went to Hungary.

Payman Langroudi: Did you go to Malaysia with your parents.

[TRANSITION]: Or.

Sara Khandan: Just my mom? So [00:05:00] my sister went to France at that time. So my dad would go to Iran and then come and visit [00:05:05] me and then go to France to visit my sister. It was a really long journey for him. So after [00:05:10] a few years, um, we were like, this is too hard. Let’s just go back to Iran. Let’s let the family [00:05:15] be together. Like we cannot do this.

Payman Langroudi: So your sister also went back?

[TRANSITION]: No, no, no, she stayed. [00:05:20]

Sara Khandan: Because she was way older than me.

[TRANSITION]: So she.

Sara Khandan: Could handle.

[TRANSITION]: It.

Payman Langroudi: I see. So then getting [00:05:25] in to Hungarian Dental. Which which one did you go to in Hungary?

[TRANSITION]: Debrecen.

Payman Langroudi: Debrecen? [00:05:30]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Was it easy or hard?

Sara Khandan: Getting into was quite straightforward. [00:05:35] Uh, we did the exam. The entrance exam in Iran. So the some of [00:05:40] the professors from the uni would come to the agent’s place in Iran, in Tehran. [00:05:45] Wow. Um, and then he would actually take them to Shiraz. Like one of the very famous cities in Iran. [00:05:50] And they would have like this sort of touristic visit. Um, so we did the entrance [00:05:55] exam in Iran and uh, then everything else was basically with the agents [00:06:00] doing all the paperwork. So everything was quite straightforward. But once you get to the uni, [00:06:05] then it becomes really intense. So yeah, then the five years. [00:06:10]

Payman Langroudi: What was your first impression of Hungary when you got there?

Sara Khandan: Very. People are very reserved [00:06:15] there. So compared to the UK, I people here are very outgoing. [00:06:20] You can literally click with them really fast, have a very good proper conversation, [00:06:25] talk about many things. But in in Hungary firstly the language barrier because not everyone [00:06:30] speaks English there and Hungarian is not a very easy language. You have to [00:06:35] basically you need time to learn it and people are not as [00:06:40] outgoing either. They are very, very reserved. So it’s you always have like a [00:06:45] barrier between you. Unless you learn Hungarian, then you see a different side of them. [00:06:50]

Payman Langroudi: And you learned Hungarian.

Sara Khandan: Only after uni. So because the course wasn’t, everything [00:06:55] was in English. Um, we did have to learn a little bit of Hungarian, but that was not enough. [00:07:00] That was very, very minimal. After we were done with uni because we decided to work [00:07:05] in Hungary, then that was the time that we had to learn Hungarian because not many patients would speak Hungarian [00:07:10] English.

Payman Langroudi: How about you, Mohan, when you first got there?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Was it the first time you were away [00:07:15] from your family and all that?

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah, that was the case basically for me. I [00:07:20] think it was a bit different because, uh, um, I had to move out of [00:07:25] Iran before I turned 18 because of the military service. So after you turn 18, [00:07:30] you can’t leave the country legally, basically. Uh, before doing your [00:07:35] military service. So I just found myself like. [00:07:40] Because before that I used to live with my parents, and. Yeah, but after that, [00:07:45] I just, Like so myself, just suddenly living by [00:07:50] my own. And, uh. Yeah, uh, one thing that did [00:07:55] actually help was that because, uh, there were like other people who was who [00:08:00] were like, going through the same journey like me. So that’s, uh, it make [00:08:05] made it a bit easier for me.

Payman Langroudi: Did you have your own little Iranian clique?

Mahan Mohaghegh: Community? [00:08:10] Yeah, basically. And the first year we used to, we had there was like, uh, [00:08:15] this hostel basically, uh, that we all used to just live next [00:08:20] to each other. So that was like a good. Uh. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What was [00:08:25] going through your head? Were you feeling lucky or unlucky?

Mahan Mohaghegh: I [00:08:30] was feeling lucky, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: The opportunity?

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. The opportunity. I could see [00:08:35] the opportunity to. You ask first that why you moved out of Iran? [00:08:40] It was mainly because of the like our parents could see the economic situation [00:08:45] in Iran. And my my dad, he is a neurologist. He [00:08:50] is a doctor as well. But like one thing that he said, he, he [00:08:55] he pushed me towards dentistry more. Yeah. Because [00:09:00] in his opinion, because he went through all these medical degrees and [00:09:05] it’s take lots of time to become like a general practitioner [00:09:10] and then go through specialists and takes longer time compared [00:09:15] to dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Did he study all in Iran? Your dad?

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Used to be in some super brain. [00:09:20]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Very competitive in Iran.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then to become a neurologist.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Neurologist? [00:09:25] Yeah. It’s really difficult. Like I remember even in our university, we had like [00:09:30] a brief course of like neurology and [00:09:35] I couldn’t really go. It was really difficult. Yeah. [00:09:40]

Payman Langroudi: And what do your parents do?

Sara Khandan: Uh, my dad is an engineer, civil engineer and my mom [00:09:45] housewife and a teacher.

Mahan Mohaghegh: And you always have this basically [00:09:50] Middle Eastern approach that you have to be a doctor, dentist, [00:09:55] lawyer. So that’s also our that was mainly my mom that pushed [00:10:00] me to go to the to Hungary and study dentistry. My parents [00:10:05] basically.

[TRANSITION]: There.

Payman Langroudi: Was a degree of excitement when you got there, huh? Because you’re now living by.

[TRANSITION]: Yourself.

Payman Langroudi: In your [00:10:10] country?

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah, in a new country, everything was new. So it was like lots [00:10:15] of excitement at first.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the financials. Like, was it [00:10:20] expensive? Was it a struggle to think about paying for it? Your life?

[TRANSITION]: Well, you should talk to your parents. [00:10:25]

Sara Khandan: Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: It was. Yeah. At first, I mean. Yeah, [00:10:30] it. So the I think it’s like the whole one [00:10:35] year, uh, is that at that time, it was around, uh, 15, $16,000. [00:10:40] Dollars. But now I think it should be more.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [00:10:45] that? The teaching?

Sara Khandan: No, just the.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Usual university thing. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Including living?

[TRANSITION]: No [00:10:50] no no no. Just teaching.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Teaching. Just the. Just the.

[TRANSITION]: You know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a lot in Iranian money.

[TRANSITION]: Right? [00:10:55] Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: It is. Yeah. I mean, at that time, the the rate, the conversion [00:11:00] rate, it was a bit much. Not a bit much, much better.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: But, [00:11:05] uh. Yeah. Now, still, now it’s still my, uh, sister. She is now studying [00:11:10] in Hungary, in the same university.

[TRANSITION]: At.

Payman Langroudi: Double the price.

[TRANSITION]: Right? At double [00:11:15] the price. And my parents.

Mahan Mohaghegh: They keep every time I call them, they just keep moaning. [00:11:20] Always expensive.

Payman Langroudi: So she’s studying dentistry as well?

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Although I. [00:11:25] Yeah, although I tried my best to. I don’t know why, but I feel like the Debrecen. [00:11:30] Exactly. Especially Debrecen. Uh, it’s [00:11:35] a bit. So basically in in central and [00:11:40] Eastern Europe. I feel like the universities there are like more towards like oral [00:11:45] exams and there are less written exams there. And the [00:11:50] bad thing is, uh, basically the oral exam. Okay. [00:11:55] There is like a, like a 20% of luck involved [00:12:00] as well. I mean, even even if not more than that. So even if you know [00:12:05] everything, it’s really important. Who like who is your examiner [00:12:10] would be and which topic. Because we have to take like a topic as well. Like [00:12:15] I had like some people they, they even like missed some of the topics and [00:12:20] they would go and they would just pass the exam. That’s one thing. And [00:12:25] in some cases, like especially the Dental departments, there [00:12:30] were like quite a bit tricky to like, for example, special oral surgery departments. [00:12:35] We had to yeah, we had to know lots of, like [00:12:40] stuff. We have to learn all the about the surgeries and everything. [00:12:45] It’s really difficult to just without seeing them try [00:12:50] to memorise all the steps of the which is involved and everything [00:12:55] there. That’s why I tried my yeah, but tried to tell [00:13:00] my parents not to send my sister there.

Payman Langroudi: But they didn’t.

[TRANSITION]: Listen. They didn’t [00:13:05] listen.

Payman Langroudi: So I mean, as far as the difference between studying there and studying [00:13:10] here, do you know the difference as far as the amount of experience you had? Like, did you end up doing [00:13:15] more or less than what a.

[TRANSITION]: British.

Payman Langroudi: Graduate would do in terms of restorative? [00:13:20]

Sara Khandan: Or in Hungary, it’s definitely more invasive. So dentistry is [00:13:25] a way minimally invasive in the UK. Um, you’re [00:13:30] less scared of trying new things because in general there is no culture [00:13:35] of suing there. They’re nothing. Even patients barely complain to [00:13:40] you. They look at dentists as gods.

Payman Langroudi: So the old.

[TRANSITION]: Way.

Sara Khandan: Exactly. [00:13:45] So you’re always pre-authorized compared to the patient. There is no complaint. [00:13:50] So less stressful. And I actually, we are really grateful that we worked there [00:13:55] for our first few years because as a newly graduate, we could sort.

[TRANSITION]: Of.

Payman Langroudi: Try.

[TRANSITION]: Things. [00:14:00] Exactly.

Sara Khandan: We could try things. Have a lot of experience. Root canals, extractions, many things. [00:14:05] Whereas if we were here, maybe we would have been a little bit more cautious. Um. [00:14:10] Patients, they are easygoing. [00:14:15] I would say way less stressful. But I like the dental community better [00:14:20] in the UK. Um, the fact that it’s more multicultural, um, a lot [00:14:25] of courses, everyone’s just so easygoing, so easy to just [00:14:30] contact someone and ask them about anything. We didn’t have those privileges in the in [00:14:35] in Hungary. We it was, as I mentioned, very very reserved. So I’m [00:14:40] still happy that.

Payman Langroudi: Did you move when you started working to Budapest or did you [00:14:45] stay there?

Sara Khandan: No, we actually I had my own practice. Oh, yeah. It was a governmental [00:14:50] practice. So something in the shape of NHS a little bit different, but [00:14:55] majorly was similar. Um, so it wasn’t anywhere [00:15:00] close to Budapest. It was closer to Debrecen that the city that we graduated from.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. It [00:15:05] was like basically the the basic public, uh.

Sara Khandan: Sector.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Sector. [00:15:10] Yeah. And it’s different like in there, you don’t, uh, you don’t have to own. [00:15:15] It’s basically the government own the practice and the land and everything. And you get [00:15:20] just the you buy the basic rights, the right of the, uh, like [00:15:25] to basically work as a dentist there. So but it was quite [00:15:30] a journey. Yeah. It was quite an experience there.

[TRANSITION]: Too.

Payman Langroudi: And neither of you have ever worked in Iran as a dentist?

[TRANSITION]: No. [00:15:35]

Payman Langroudi: That’s funny, because I did one summer.

[TRANSITION]: Did you?

Payman Langroudi: I was I wasn’t a dentist. I was a dental [00:15:40] student. Oh, and my uncle was a dentist, and he was running the public. [00:15:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Thing in Rasht, probably.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, nice. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And there [00:15:50] was basically a queue going out of the clinic, and it was only extractions.

[TRANSITION]: Was it?

Payman Langroudi: And [00:15:55] he used to go around the queue injecting everyone.

[TRANSITION]: No way.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So that by [00:16:00] the time they got in, they were all numb.

[TRANSITION]: Numb.

Payman Langroudi: And then I didn’t that I remember that one day I [00:16:05] did more extractions than I did for the whole of my dental course, obviously. Um, and I learnt extractions. [00:16:10] You know, he taught me how to do extractions in that one day. And there’s something [00:16:15] to be said for volume. I mean, people talk about that in the NHS as well. Yeah. Like go to the NHS and learn.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:16:20]

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t like the idea myself, I think, although I get it and I [00:16:25] did one year in the NHS too. I get it, but I don’t like the idea, um, of [00:16:30] practising on people who aren’t paying as much. You know that notion? [00:16:35] Um, now it’s a two way street. Yeah. Those people want the dentistry. Yeah. Um, but [00:16:40] for me, the quicker you get into the thing that you’re going to get into, the [00:16:45] better you’re learning. You know, but it’s not a popular view. So. So let’s talk [00:16:50] about then why did you or at what point did you decide to come here. So you did 2 or 3 [00:16:55] years of practice in in that clinic.

Sara Khandan: So three years initially when [00:17:00] we graduated we worked for a company Mohan worked for a few years. I [00:17:05] worked there for like one year. I had the worst experience of my life.

Payman Langroudi: Like a corporate. [00:17:10]

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Sara Khandan: A corporate. And the owners, they were just [00:17:15] horrible. We firstly with the visa situation, [00:17:20] there were always using that against us because because we sort of were independent, [00:17:25] we were dependent on the visa. Um, they would really use it against us. [00:17:30] They took advantage. They didn’t even pay us for the first two months that we were working for them. They [00:17:35] did tell us, um, initially because we were newly graduated. So like, see, you’re going to come and work [00:17:40] for us, but we’re not going to pay you for two months. Um, that was the time that I was like, I cannot do this. [00:17:45] Um, I have to do something so that I become visa dependent, uh, [00:17:50] visa dependent on myself. And that was opening a practice.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, I see.

Sara Khandan: Um, [00:17:55] I, I didn’t even speak Hungarian that well because I was just learning [00:18:00] Hungarian back then. Mohan. Because he had more experience. He was the one helping me to go around [00:18:05] and, uh, buy practices. Um, we had to go to the council. [00:18:10] We chose a very small village. Um, we had to go to the council. Mohan was there [00:18:15] helping me with the language for translating and bless them. They were so [00:18:20] nice. They were like, we do anything you want with the visa. It’s okay. Just come here, [00:18:25] be our dentist. But they really needed a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: It was.

[TRANSITION]: Neat.

Sara Khandan: Exactly.

[TRANSITION]: And the fact.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Sorry, [00:18:30] the fact that, like they are, as soon as they they see that you are [00:18:35] like foreigner and they you start speaking their language, they will get surprised because they are not. [00:18:40] Yeah. And also they get really nice. So yeah, it’s like a different [00:18:45] story.

Payman Langroudi: Of Eastern Europeans work here.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the they, it’s like a [00:18:50] they call them like an egg. There’s a, there’s a shell on the outside. Once you get through that shell then, [00:18:55] then they let you in completely.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: That’s true. Yeah. They will come here.

Payman Langroudi: And they say [00:19:00] Western Europeans are the opposite. Yeah. Like they say, it’s a peach. It’s [00:19:05] really soft on the outside, but hard on the inside. That’s that’s what.

[TRANSITION]: Makes absolute sense, actually. [00:19:10] Yeah.

Sara Khandan: That’s a nice way to describe it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But so go on the [00:19:15] that experience that the any let’s call it the NHS of, of Hungary that you did. [00:19:20]

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: That public was it was that just high needs extractions. Was it. What kind of dentistry was it?

Sara Khandan: Uh, [00:19:25] it was everything. So, uh, it’s quite different with NHS in the sense [00:19:30] that there is, um, an exact line between private and [00:19:35] sort of the public health or public dentistry in Hungary.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t.

[TRANSITION]: Mix.

Sara Khandan: You can’t [00:19:40] mix. So I think that’s what makes it easier, because once if [00:19:45] someone has pain, definitely public. So for instance, if you need to do an extraction, [00:19:50] fillings, things like that, it’s definitely free of charge. The patients they don’t need to pay either. [00:19:55] But once they need something such as crowns, cosmetic fillings again, or even [00:20:00] dentures, then they have to pay. But here in so it’s less of a talking. But [00:20:05] here in the UK, I feel like sometimes, most of the time it’s just going to persuade the patients or [00:20:10] sell private to them. Whereas I as a dentist really want to focus on [00:20:15] doing my work, not talking, talking to the patient, if that makes sense. But [00:20:20] um, one other thing, which was different patients firstly they didn’t pay. Secondly, it was based [00:20:25] on their address. So only people who were living close to that area could come [00:20:30] to me and have public dentistry work. Um, and anyone [00:20:35] else from other areas they had to pay. Whereas here it doesn’t matter if you’re living close by, like you could come from [00:20:40] literally the different city or have the NHS.

Mahan Mohaghegh: And I think we got like a chance to try. [00:20:45] I mean, I know that you said you don’t like that idea that you can like practice [00:20:50] on people, but the thing is, like as a dentist or as like any other professional, [00:20:55] you need.

[TRANSITION]: To learn how.

Mahan Mohaghegh: To learn. Because if you start by having so much [00:21:00] stress about other stuff, you can’t really learn and you can’t even like, because [00:21:05] the thing is, like, I feel like after graduating from university, you just [00:21:10] found yourself that you think that you know everything, but you, you don’t know anything [00:21:15] actually like you literally, when you just start working, you it’s just different [00:21:20] story, different world. Ward. And because in university they all what they teach [00:21:25] you is just how to do it. For example, feeling in perfect condition, how to do crowns, [00:21:30] perfect condition.

[TRANSITION]: How to.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Do root canals. They don’t really teach you [00:21:35] this sort of thing, which you need. You need experience. And in Hungary, that’s because after [00:21:40] I moved here, I’ve heard from, uh, like people who [00:21:45] graduate in, uh, UK, uh, that, uh, basically they didn’t got [00:21:50] enough chance to try so many stuff, like even with the root canals, what most [00:21:55] people, they just refer the root canal position. Whereas in Hungary we used [00:22:00] to do lots of like root canals and molars six seven and yeah, [00:22:05] that was such, I think good experience. And yeah, we did [00:22:10] uh, yeah. Learn a lot, I feel. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So did you work in one of those state clinics as well? [00:22:15]

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It was that first. And then uh, there was like a private practice [00:22:20] as well that I used to work, but there weren’t in Budapest. It was all [00:22:25] in like a small town. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And how did you pick up Hungarian? Just by osmosis. Or [00:22:30] did you go to classes or.

Sara Khandan: No, just just yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: We had like, [00:22:35] as she said, like in during university there was like there were like few courses. [00:22:40] But yeah, we didn’t learn much. It was mainly. Yeah through the working. It was [00:22:45] interesting how you can learn by just. But yeah I like I couldn’t, [00:22:50] I still can’t like really write or. Yeah but I can [00:22:55] speak quite good. I mean after two years living here it’s a bit [00:23:00] vague but still. Yeah, I feel like if I start the conversation then I [00:23:05] can carry on in Hungarian. It is very hard.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And not [00:23:10] many people speak English, right?

Sara Khandan: No, not many speaking. Maybe better in Budapest, but [00:23:15] other cities, definitely not many people speak. And then it’s very. You can’t use Hungarian anywhere. [00:23:20] Like you go through all that effort to learn that language and you can’t use it anywhere else. [00:23:25] It’s just a waste of time, to be fair.

Mahan Mohaghegh: But you can’t. Sorry. You can’t just [00:23:30] find Hungary. Although there are like 10 million population of them, they can find them [00:23:35] anywhere. The first day that we reached, we arrived to UK. We had [00:23:40] to go to. We booked a hotel and we went there and the receptionist. [00:23:45]

[TRANSITION]: Was Hungarian.

Mahan Mohaghegh: And he is not Hungarian.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:23:50] there’s plenty of Hungarians in London.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I remember I went to Dental [00:23:55] world maybe 15 years ago, trying to sell enlightened [00:24:00] to a distributor over there, and they had a translator for me and I [00:24:05] was thinking, why do I need a translator? Then I realised why I need a translator. I [00:24:10] mean, back then no one really spoke very.

[TRANSITION]: Good.

Payman Langroudi: English, but I think it’s changed a lot [00:24:15] now.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Back then it was, I think, the more like they used to learn [00:24:20] like German. Yeah. More. Yeah, more.

Sara Khandan: And Russian as well.

Mahan Mohaghegh: And Russian [00:24:25] a bit. Yeah. German. It was. Yeah. The second language that they used to learn before. [00:24:30] Now it’s a bit more English. Yeah. And the new generation, they, they, they [00:24:35] speak English better I would say.

Payman Langroudi: But you’ve had times in Budapest [00:24:40] as well.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Good town, I like Budapest.

[TRANSITION]: It’s beautiful. Yeah.

Sara Khandan: It’s [00:24:45] beautiful.

[TRANSITION]: Good town. It’s, it’s it’s very nice.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah I love Budapest [00:24:50] party town. Really it is.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because maybe I just partied there [00:24:55] a lot. I don’t.

[TRANSITION]: Know, it’s like super, super clubs.

Payman Langroudi: There’s that Sziget festival. [00:25:00]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah festival. Yeah, yeah. It’s nice because it’s a bit [00:25:05] cheaper obviously as well that’s uh, makes it really great. And [00:25:10] the weather is nice in summer. Yeah. And uh, but.

[TRANSITION]: It does.

Sara Khandan: Get really busy [00:25:15] in summer. Budapest gets really, really busy.

Payman Langroudi: So then the decision to come to the UK was that [00:25:20] at what point? Or was that always in your head?

Sara Khandan: It was [00:25:25] in our head. Even when we graduated, we did look around and we searched [00:25:30] if we can get registered in GDC and they said that, sorry, you’re um, [00:25:35] from Iran, which is not in EU. Even if you graduated in EU, [00:25:40] but still because you’re not EU national, we cannot register. You have to go through the exams. Um, [00:25:45] we were like, okay, um, at one point we were deciding maybe we [00:25:50] should do the exams. And then literally there were many countries that we were thinking of at [00:25:55] some point. Then we were like, okay, let’s go to Belgium because we had a friend who went to Belgium and he was really thriving, [00:26:00] and we were like, okay, maybe that’s not a bad idea. And then at some point we wanted to go to Ireland, [00:26:05] um, and Canada and then eventually [00:26:10] UK. Um, they removed the exams in UK because [00:26:15] of Brexit and obviously Covid happened. Um, and we were like, this is the best opportunity ever. [00:26:20] We did spend a lot with all those registrations for different countries, but we were [00:26:25] like, let’s, let’s do this. I mean, they’re putting everything for us now. We don’t have to do the exams, so let’s just [00:26:30] get registered. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: And all those other countries had exams.

[TRANSITION]: Um. [00:26:35]

Payman Langroudi: Belgium had uncertainty, right?

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Sara Khandan: Canada had. We even applied for the permanent [00:26:40] residence and everything. We didn’t get it, but we were in the process. We paid lawyers and everything. Um, Canada [00:26:45] had exams, Belgium, um, language exam. Um, [00:26:50] we were gonna go to the Dutch part.

[TRANSITION]: Flemish?

Sara Khandan: Exactly. Flemish part.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:26:55] Got another.

Payman Langroudi: Another language to learn.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Sara Khandan: And they were [00:27:00] so nice. Even I don’t regret anything. We spent a fortune in the process. [00:27:05] But I don’t regret a single thing. Because when we were applying [00:27:10] for Belgium, We were taking Flemish classes and we came across this [00:27:15] amazing teacher. We had online classes and we just got so close to that teacher. Um, [00:27:20] during Christmas time, she was like, you should, you guys should come to Belgium and [00:27:25] visit us. She just invited us to her home, her daughter home as well, [00:27:30] during Christmas, and we went there and celebrated it with them, just how nice they were. And [00:27:35] she’s actually coming to visit us in August.

[TRANSITION]: Nice.

Sara Khandan: After so many years. Yeah, we’re gonna see her again. [00:27:40] Um, but yeah, with UK, it’s just again seemed [00:27:45] quite straightforward. Um, we were like, let’s, let’s do this. Let’s see where [00:27:50] life gets us. And if.

[TRANSITION]: It.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Wasn’t like in English, the language barrier basically. [00:27:55] So it was in English.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you learn [00:28:00] English?

Sara Khandan: Oh. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Iran.

Sara Khandan: I mostly learned it when I went to Malaysia. [00:28:05]

[TRANSITION]: Oh, really?

Sara Khandan: That’s that’s the, um, place where I learned it. But I was taking English [00:28:10] classes in Iran as well. So we always had the foundation.

Mahan Mohaghegh: We always like from [00:28:15] the from the age of 6 or 7, our parents, we used to they lots [00:28:20] of, uh, basically, uh, children, they just go to the [00:28:25] private schools to learn the language, basically to English mainly. [00:28:30] And uh, then again, like when you grow up, you just hear [00:28:35] all like everywhere English.

[TRANSITION]: So films.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Films.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. Media [00:28:40] everywhere.

Mahan Mohaghegh: But yeah. And then you studied in [00:28:45] English as well in university as well. Yeah. [00:28:50]

Payman Langroudi: So had you already sorted out a job in England before you moved?

[TRANSITION]: Yes. Oh [00:28:55] yeah.

Sara Khandan: So we had the interview with the company that we went to. Um, [00:29:00] we didn’t, we just had the online interview because obviously we didn’t come to visit the country [00:29:05] before we came.

Payman Langroudi: But how did you come across that?

Sara Khandan: Um, just searching online. So [00:29:10] that’s why we had to go through many interviews and we came across, um, [00:29:15] with the Southcliffe. That’s where we started working for, um, [00:29:20] again, because we had no idea how things [00:29:25] are here. It was a very hard decision, very risky. [00:29:30] But we were like, we have to take that risk. There is no way to be prepared for everything. [00:29:35] Let’s just go. Go with the flow, see what happens. And we still don’t [00:29:40] regret it. Obviously, we had very hard times when we came here just getting adapted to the whole [00:29:45] system, especially NHS being so complicated. Uh, but again, um, [00:29:50] I think we were quite lucky with, with what we chose and where we went.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:29:55] southcliffe I know them well.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, was there like an induction, [00:30:00] like were they, did they train you on the NHS?

Sara Khandan: Um. [00:30:05]

[TRANSITION]: Go ahead.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. So there wasn’t much of induction, [00:30:10] but we used to have. So basically, uh, there there [00:30:15] is a clinical director there that, uh, because for the NHS, you know, you [00:30:20] have to, uh, first you will get like a conditional performer number. [00:30:25] So which you have to be mentored for at least six months for us because [00:30:30] we had like some experience, uh, outside the UK. So for [00:30:35] us it was six months, uh, that we were like, uh, under supervision. [00:30:40] So we had like a mentor, him as a mentor. He taught [00:30:45] us quite a lot. He taught us everything. I’m like really thankful. And [00:30:50] yeah, he he he is he he he basically he was dealing also with [00:30:55] the all the complaints and everything in the, uh, basically the company as [00:31:00] well. And uh, you know, how like lots of [00:31:05] maybe other dentists or even like, uh, the, uh, CEO [00:31:10] of the companies, they just want to ask you to perform more. Not [00:31:15] like. Yeah, but he wasn’t like that. So he was going old. Like [00:31:20] he was basically giving you the right way. Not like the best. Uh, how [00:31:25] to sell everything, how to, like, increase your, uh, basically, uh, [00:31:30] performance. So that was, uh, I think we were, like, really lucky that we had him. [00:31:35] Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But what was he? He wasn’t teaching you the actual dentistry. He was.

[TRANSITION]: Teaching? [00:31:40] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Teaching you how the NHS works.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Exactly. How we can do the NHS. How like [00:31:45] the basically law and regulations are in, in, in UK because, uh, [00:31:50] it’s totally different. It’s it’s like different approach here. So [00:31:55] here is more I would say like preventive. Uh, but in Hungary [00:32:00] it used to be like patient like more emergency focus. So patient they used to come and [00:32:05] just if they have like a pain or it would be really rare that patient would just [00:32:10] come for like a check-up. And even in the university it was the same. So even in the [00:32:15] university nobody would like we wouldn’t really take any bitewings [00:32:20] during the the university, they didn’t even teach us. It was mainly OPG. And [00:32:25] if you’re doing like root canal treatments, you would just take PA periapical. But [00:32:30] uh, here we learned about these things and how [00:32:35] and also in Hungary, they used to be I mean, they’re still [00:32:40] like you would see lots of bridges work. Yeah. Done. But [00:32:45] in here it’s mainly especially in NHS, I would say lots of dentures. [00:32:50] And one thing that I noticed again is here, [00:32:55] I think the labs, dental labs, they are quite really good at making [00:33:00] dentures. Yeah. Because in, in, in Hungary we had to like even like [00:33:05] we this is how we learn in Hungary. So we had to take basically alginate [00:33:10] impression and then take like a border moulding do all these things. [00:33:15] But here we came. And first of all in NHS, I saw that the dentist, they just [00:33:20] take one impression one alginate and the lab, they would just make the denture. Uh, [00:33:25] but there are actually most of them. They go smoothly, but I [00:33:30] feel like uh, it’s because they do lots of dentures, uh, every [00:33:35] day.

Payman Langroudi: Well, this is what I mean, man. This is what I mean about the, you know, like training in a system [00:33:40] that you want to work in, you know, because that’s not the way we were taught, right? To [00:33:45] do a primary impression. There was secondary.

[TRANSITION]: Secondary impression. Yeah, exactly. [00:33:50]

Payman Langroudi: And all of all of that stuff. Um, but somehow the NHS makes you [00:33:55] speed up and and missteps. Right. And sometimes. Yeah, I guess, you know, [00:34:00] you don’t have to, right?

[TRANSITION]: No, you don’t have to.

Payman Langroudi: You can do it the right way if you want.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. [00:34:05] That’s true.

[TRANSITION]: That’s what then go broke. And I think that’s.

Sara Khandan: Why we were.

[TRANSITION]: Quite lucky.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Always [00:34:10] like the NHS they would say.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Sara Khandan: Because the mentor that we had, that’s exactly what [00:34:15] he taught us. He was like, never. You’re going to be pressurised at some point, but never [00:34:20] let that bring down the quality of the work that you’re going to do. Because at the end of the day, you’re here to do dentistry. [00:34:25] And it’s not about the profit that you have to make, because obviously the CEOs, the companies, [00:34:30] wherever you want to work for, especially in NHS, they will push you at some point, like do more, do more, do more. [00:34:35] It’s never enough. But he was like, always think about that patient and imagine that patient [00:34:40] being part of your family. What would you do for that patient? And I think it’s extremely important [00:34:45] when you come to a new country for, in our case, UK, to have a very good [00:34:50] mentor, because that mentor is going to be the person who’s going to build the foundation of [00:34:55] you performing as some sort of professional in that country. And I think [00:35:00] we’re really, really lucky with him because he taught us proper dentistry. I mean, obviously we [00:35:05] knew how to work as a dentist, but not in UK.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. But I think at the [00:35:10] same time, I understand the, uh, practice owners as well because it’s, [00:35:15] uh, you have to, as you said, otherwise you’re gonna go broke. So [00:35:20] they have to. Yeah. Pressure to do more, uh, pressurise the [00:35:25] the dentists and the the employers to just, uh, employees to just, uh, [00:35:30] keep on doing more udas otherwise. Yeah. You have to pay the nurses. Dentists? [00:35:35] Yeah. And you know how the cost of everything is nowadays. [00:35:40] And I think as far as I know, the so everything [00:35:45] is going up with the inflation, but the amounts that the practices they will get [00:35:50] from NHS is not like keeping up with inflation. So I think. Yeah. [00:35:55] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I’ve only ever had one person in here [00:36:00] in this pod tell me that they’ve got an NHS practice, that all the dentists are [00:36:05] happy and thriving.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, [00:36:10] I mean, I don’t know, maybe I’m selecting private dentists. [00:36:15] Enlightened dentists tend to be more private. Right.

[TRANSITION]: But.

Payman Langroudi: Um, she was [00:36:20] saying, oh, you know, we’re happy. The patients are happy. The dentists are happy. Everyone’s happy. And I believed her. She wasn’t. She [00:36:25] wasn’t lying about it, you know. She hasn’t come out yet that episode. Um, but. So [00:36:30] how long did you work in the NHS before you decided to move to a [00:36:35] private practice?

Sara Khandan: Two and a half year.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Sara Khandan: So one [00:36:40] thing with us is we, again, with the visa situation, [00:36:45] you get dependence on the company that you’re working for.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Sara Khandan: Um, and based [00:36:50] on how your contract is with that company, um, it might not be too easy to come [00:36:55] out of it. So one thing that I would definitely mention to people listening [00:37:00] to this podcast, especially those ones who are coming and need the visa, um, skilled [00:37:05] worker visa, make sure that you are really mindful of the contract and how [00:37:10] many years you’re bound to stay. Um, we [00:37:15] had good UDA rates, so at least that was working for us. But the NHS [00:37:20] was definitely something that we were like, it’s it’s just this skill you sometimes. [00:37:25] Yeah, we were trying to do our best honestly. Like I never diminish [00:37:30] the quality that I want to give to my patients. But you it’s more [00:37:35] about quantity. Doesn’t matter if you still do your best. It’s again more about quantity rather [00:37:40] than quality. There is not. Otherwise there’s not going to be any profit. And we were like, this [00:37:45] is not how we want to continue as a dentist, because at the end of the day, one of the reasons that we want to come [00:37:50] here is to progress in our profession. And this is not what.

[TRANSITION]: We expected for.

Payman Langroudi: Especially [00:37:55] having been through everything you’ve been through. Right.

[TRANSITION]: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I [00:38:00] was like a spoilt 17 year old. Parents said, what do you want to do? I don’t know. [00:38:05] And they said, oh, why don’t you try dentistry? And [00:38:10] then I did and I got to university. Spoilt 18 year old, you know like had a lot of fun. [00:38:15] And you know, I didn’t go through that hassle that you guys went through [00:38:20] change country twice to get here. Yeah. In a way, for you guys, it’s even more important [00:38:25] that you’re then in a profession that you know you’re progressing the way you want to progress.

[TRANSITION]: Exactly.

Sara Khandan: That’s [00:38:30] exactly what I was actually telling Mohan when we started NHS. I was like, this is [00:38:35] even I feel trapped. I mean, I was thinking coming here looking [00:38:40] for freedom, but I don’t know why. I feel even more trapped in the system now. [00:38:45] Um.

[TRANSITION]: And what’s.

Payman Langroudi: The worst thing about the NHS for.

[TRANSITION]: You?

Mahan Mohaghegh: I [00:38:50] would say I think the the [00:38:55] complaint system in NHS. I to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know about it. Tell me.

[TRANSITION]: About [00:39:00] it.

Mahan Mohaghegh: So so I feel like, uh I’m, I haven’t had like major [00:39:05] complaint. Yeah. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Uh, but, uh, I mean, [00:39:10] like, I, I’ve heard lots of stories and even from this, my mentor, because he, as [00:39:15] I said, he used to deal with the complaints and everything.

Payman Langroudi: That was the same guy that mentored [00:39:20] both of you?

[TRANSITION]: Yes. Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Uh, so basically everything [00:39:25] like with, with, like, so all the issues and everything [00:39:30] that the patients they have, they when they contact NHS [00:39:35] complaint Service, they just go through lots of [00:39:40] these basically issues. They can be handled like within the practice and they [00:39:45] don’t need all these papers. Yeah. Locally. And they’re not like really major issues. But [00:39:50] with most of them, they just have to. Yeah, they just, uh, start the process [00:39:55] and then it’s just going to take a long time. You have to email, you have to send letters. [00:40:00] And, and I think lots of these things, they just I mean, it’s a waste [00:40:05] of money, I think also for the NHS as well, because they obviously have to have like, [00:40:10] uh, employees working on these cases as well and lots of stress [00:40:15] because it takes lots of time and there is lots of stress for the dentist for, uh, [00:40:20] which they have to bear. Basically. I think it’s, it’s, it’s [00:40:25] really that’s I would say the main thing.

[TRANSITION]: For.

Sara Khandan: Me, it would be the banding [00:40:30] system. It just doesn’t make sense. You would do extraction, root canal, denture [00:40:35] and everything just in one band. It’s it’s I think that is very, very unfair. [00:40:40] That’s definitely something that just doesn’t make any sense.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah I [00:40:45] remember when that came in. A bunch of people left the NHS at that point. It’s [00:40:50] almost like a conspiracy to break it step by step. You know, like, um, because some people [00:40:55] were happy with the previous system and it was, you know, like fee per item.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Type system. [00:41:00] It was a cheap fee per item. Um, I personally used to hate the idea that there’s someone else [00:41:05] even involved. You know, you’ve got dentist patient and the idea there’s [00:41:10] someone else involved, like a government.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Who used to do my head in. What’s most surprises [00:41:15] you about? Like, what you can and can’t do?

[TRANSITION]: Um. [00:41:20]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the banding system itself, but.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah, I [00:41:25] would say.

Sara Khandan: I preferred [00:41:30] the way how the system was in Hungary. A little.

[TRANSITION]: Bit. [00:41:35]

Payman Langroudi: Free for everyone.

Sara Khandan: It was free for everyone.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What what could you do? And what couldn’t you do [00:41:40] in Hungary?

[TRANSITION]: Um.

Sara Khandan: We. The very simple ones, for [00:41:45] instance, extraction, fillings, things like that. It was free.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you said.

[TRANSITION]: It [00:41:50] was complicated.

Sara Khandan: Exactly. But anything with any denture.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. Crowns. [00:41:55] Bridges. They were.

[TRANSITION]: They was.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Private.

Sara Khandan: I think there was a very exact clear line. [00:42:00] And it was just clear for everyone.

Payman Langroudi: And explain. Do you want an NHS filling or a private filling. [00:42:05]

Sara Khandan: Right here it’s just explaining and the differences. And you [00:42:10] still can count everything in NHS even cobalt Chrome.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Always be worried that. [00:42:15]

[TRANSITION]: Oh yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Would I say too much?

[TRANSITION]: Did I say yeah. Did I say bad about it.

Sara Khandan: And [00:42:20] it just takes away.

Mahan Mohaghegh: It’s just.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Sara Khandan: It takes away your focus of the work that [00:42:25] you want to do. And then you just have to worry so much about the whatever. You have to [00:42:30] explain that you cannot focus more on the practical work.

Mahan Mohaghegh: I think also I think [00:42:35] it makes you either, uh overtreat [00:42:40] in some cases or in some cases you which you, [00:42:45] for example, like if, let’s say if there is like a, for example, like [00:42:50] a broken tooth, which you need to do, root canal treatments and all these like treatments, [00:42:55] a lot of time you might be able to do it, but you think as a [00:43:00] dentist it’s too much work for me. And at the end of the day, I’m not going to get [00:43:05] enough. So let’s just tell the patient that it’s not restorable anymore. That’s also the. [00:43:10]

[TRANSITION]: System is pushing you that way. Yes.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Either you overtreat to get like 3 or [00:43:15] 5 udaas or the other way around. So yeah, [00:43:20] I think it’s. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then the move to private. Did you find [00:43:25] it hard finding a private job?

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Sara Khandan: Um, mostly again because [00:43:30] of the visa situation. Not a lot of because to be able to get visa here, you [00:43:35] that practice has to have a sponsorship certificate so that they can [00:43:40] sponsor you as as employees, and not a lot of private practices do. So [00:43:45] again, being a foreigner, a foreign dentist, it your, [00:43:50] um, options are halved because either you have to go and look for an [00:43:55] NHS one because usually it’s the NHS practices that that would offer the sponsorship or [00:44:00] not a very good location. So the good places are not really [00:44:05] offering those sponsorship certificates. And we were quite lucky with, with our, um, [00:44:10] employers now because we were the first ones that they were sponsoring for. And [00:44:15] um, I think it worked out really well. We were really lucky. Good location. And again, good, [00:44:20] really, really good. Um, employers.

Mahan Mohaghegh: But it’s like a different world. It’s a completely [00:44:25] different industry. Yeah. As you said, there is no one else involved. Yeah. So it’s. [00:44:30] Yeah. Take a lot of pressure out of you, I think. So [00:44:35] you have.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a different type of pressure.

[TRANSITION]: Different obviously.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. Obviously it’s not [00:44:40] easy. I wouldn’t say.

[TRANSITION]: I mean.

Payman Langroudi: For instance, what you’re saying about conversations. Yeah. Private [00:44:45] entity is all about conversations. Yes. It’s it’s more about conversations than NHS. You [00:44:50] understand the type of conversation is different.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I hear I hear what you’re saying [00:44:55] about, you know, how do you explain to a patient the difference between an NHS composite and a private composite. [00:45:00]

[TRANSITION]: It’s difficult.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult for a patient to understand. I’m going to take longer for instance. It’s [00:45:05] not it’s not something patients get their heads around. But, you know, I was telling [00:45:10] you about. My wife had an operation. We picked the surgeon based on what he said, not [00:45:15] based on who he was.

Sara Khandan: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And that was a major operation. [00:45:20] Yeah. And so your manner with the patient, the way that you you handle [00:45:25] people, is absolutely key in private. Right. Absolutely. Key. [00:45:30] Maybe more important than the actual dentistry itself in dentistry, the patient [00:45:35] has no idea what you’re doing.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s not. It’s not like a restaurant, right? It’s not like the, you [00:45:40] know. Eventually, however nice the waitresses, however nice the decor is, in the [00:45:45] end, the plate of food is going to come in front of you and you’re going to taste it and see how it is. That’s not the case in [00:45:50] dentistry, right? The patient has no idea.

[TRANSITION]: What you’re talking about. What happened exactly?

Payman Langroudi: Did you do [00:45:55] a good job or a bad job? I used to have a boss, one of the most charming people you ever [00:46:00] meet. But you know the work. You know, he was. He was behind. Yeah, he was, he was. [00:46:05] He was an old school guy. He was well behind on what was possible and so on. Um, [00:46:10] but patients used to adore him. Yeah, because he was so charming. So my point is this [00:46:15] that you need the conversations are way, way, way more important in private things [00:46:20] like painless dentistry.

[TRANSITION]: I think the point is, yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: I think the point is, [00:46:25] uh, like you have to basically the patient, they need to trust you. [00:46:30] Yeah. And it’s just that comes with the time. So yeah, after like few [00:46:35] years working at the same practice in one practice and you get your [00:46:40] regular patients. Then slowly it will. And obviously, as you [00:46:45] said, it’s the first approach is really important. Like especially I feel [00:46:50] like with nervous patients it’s yeah.

[TRANSITION]: It’s very.

Payman Langroudi: Mind. Half the population [00:46:55] are nervous.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah exactly.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. That’s the thing with fear of dentists. But but [00:47:00] yeah.

Sara Khandan: That’s what I feel is much easier in private because you have lots of time [00:47:05] and you can go through all those conversations. And yes, with NHS we [00:47:10] have to have some sort of conversation about the differences in materials or the time that we have [00:47:15] to put for certain treatments that we have to do. But again, the time is so limited [00:47:20] that you don’t get the privilege of talking to patients about many things. Whereas in private [00:47:25] dentistry you have lots of time, so you get to know the patient better. They get to trust you even [00:47:30] even more. And I think that’s what makes it way easier.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: But at the same time. Sorry. [00:47:35] Yeah, I think I said that in NHS sometimes you can see like over treatments, [00:47:40] but it’s more than private. But I [00:47:45] wouldn’t say that in private. It’s not such a case because I have seen some cases [00:47:50] that when I was working as an NHS dentist, I used to have like [00:47:55] some patients, they had like a check-up with like a private practice [00:48:00] and they, they gave them like a huge list of like treatments [00:48:05] that they would need lots of like feelings and these sort of things. And when I [00:48:10] did the check-up, I literally like, for example, it was written that you need five fillings [00:48:15] and it was only one feeling that needs to be done, needed to be done basically. So [00:48:20] that’s also it happens on the I think at the end of the day, it’s like.

Sara Khandan: Your [00:48:25] morality.

[TRANSITION]: As a.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Dentist of the dentist. I think also it’s really important. [00:48:30]

Payman Langroudi: Although, you know, there’s been loads of research on this. Five dentists, six [00:48:35] treatment plans. Right?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Because it’s not like an exact science.

[TRANSITION]: So. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [00:48:40] true. But on the other side of it, what is it to be a professional? What is it? [00:48:45] What does it mean? You know, it’s different. It’s different to selling, uh, books. [00:48:50]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What does it mean to be a professional? It really is what you do when no one else [00:48:55] is looking. And as a dentist, most of the time, no one’s looking. Yeah. [00:49:00] Even your even your nurse not looking, you know, she can’t. She can’t see what you’re up to. Yeah. So [00:49:05] what do you do when no one else is looking? And what your mentor said about treat people like they were your family. [00:49:10] Really important. Really important way of looking at it to sort of, you [00:49:15] know, the difference between right and wrong in that sense. Yeah. Um, at [00:49:20] the same, at the same time, we could all three of us come to different conclusions. You know, that even [00:49:25] treating people like our family.

[TRANSITION]: Right?

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. That’s true. That’s completely true.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:49:30] how long have you been in the private practice now?

Mahan Mohaghegh: A few.

[TRANSITION]: Months. Few months? Yeah. Oh, [00:49:35] okay.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Since April? Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: So the prices.

Payman Langroudi: Shock you to start.

[TRANSITION]: With?

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. [00:49:40] It is.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s really exciting at the beginning. When you move, when you move, practice and the prices are higher. It’s really [00:49:45] exciting for about a month. Yeah. Then you quickly get used to that [00:49:50] new price.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Then that’s become your routine. Yeah, exactly.

Mahan Mohaghegh: But [00:49:55] yeah, we’re just starting to basically building up. So obviously the private [00:50:00] practice.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, there aren’t many patients.

Mahan Mohaghegh: There are patients. But you have to build [00:50:05] up even like with all it’s not like NHS because we used to have like NHS [00:50:10] experience. So 15 minutes appointment and your diary [00:50:15] is booked one week, two weeks in advance.

[TRANSITION]: So it’s.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. [00:50:20]

[TRANSITION]: So. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So so actually one of the reasons I got into whitening was because I was in this [00:50:25] very expensive private practice and we were booked maybe two [00:50:30] days ahead. And this question, this one you’re talking about this this what does the system [00:50:35] make you do an examination today? If I didn’t find [00:50:40] something to do on this patient in two days time, I wouldn’t have a patient.

[TRANSITION]: Exactly. Yeah. [00:50:45]

Payman Langroudi: And that’s when I started going into well, forget needs. Let’s look at wants. Yeah. [00:50:50] And then whitening and I suddenly everyone was having whitening.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:50:55]

Payman Langroudi: Because because they, they wanted it.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s how I got into whitening [00:51:00] in the first place. But also I was in Folkestone at that point. Yeah. And so similar to [00:51:05] Worthing. Mhm. Um older patients their best. Their [00:51:10] best, they are the best patients. And one thing you’ll notice here is if you ever move [00:51:15] from that area, um, you think you’re a much better dentist than you are [00:51:20] because older patients are great patients. They don’t complain.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, [00:51:25] they’re extremely nice.

Payman Langroudi: They’ve got money, they respect you [00:51:30] and your profession and all that. And the thing is, they haven’t got pulp’s, right?

[TRANSITION]: That’s [00:51:35] true. You know, it’s harder, harder.

Payman Langroudi: Harder [00:51:40] to hurt them, you know. I remember we used to do veneers. No temporaries back [00:51:45] then. Back then it was just temporaries were one thing.

Sara Khandan: You cannot [00:51:50] lay the chair back to too much.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, a few of those. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:51:55] a lot of them want to talk more, which makes it more pleasant as well. And it’s funny, you guys, [00:52:00] you’re kind of kind of at the early in your career. But when, when I stopped practising [00:52:05] in 2012. And when you stop, you realise what was [00:52:10] it you liked and what was it you didn’t like? Yeah. And it turns out for me, [00:52:15] I’m not that interested in teeth. Yeah, much more interested in people than than teeth. [00:52:20] And that’s what I miss, people. You know, I don’t particularly miss the, you know, Lego [00:52:25] doing this?

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. No, [00:52:30] I’m also about the elderlies. I think it’s they have like lots of them. [00:52:35] They have like a really bad experience from the dentistry in childhood.

[TRANSITION]: From the childhood, [00:52:40] that’s why.

Mahan Mohaghegh: So whatever you do now, although it seems like it’s normal nowadays, [00:52:45] but they, they will be really happy. That’s all. That’s all. I think that’s why [00:52:50] lots of them they have like fear of dentists.

Sara Khandan: That’s very anxious. That’s true.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [00:52:55] talk about where it’s going to go next. I mean, what kind of dentist you want to be in the long [00:53:00] run?

Sara Khandan: I really want to do more cosmetics. Um, actually [00:53:05] gonna go through a course in a few months time.

[TRANSITION]: Which one?

Sara Khandan: Cruiser.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, really? [00:53:10] Good, cause.

Sara Khandan: Um, so I really want to do more aesthetics. Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: Did you get into it?

Sara Khandan: Yeah, [00:53:15] I registered it goes out so quick.

Payman Langroudi: In that half an hour.

[TRANSITION]: It’s three [00:53:20] minutes.

Sara Khandan: In three minutes. Um, so the course, the registration [00:53:25] was at 8:00. Eight, three. Everything cool?

Payman Langroudi: Nice.

Sara Khandan: Um, so [00:53:30] I definitely want to do more cosmetics. Um, I, I don’t [00:53:35] want to specialise. I quite enjoy doing general dentistry, and, um, [00:53:40] I, I really like being able to do many treatments, [00:53:45] different kind of treatments. I don’t want to just be have that tunnel vision with something. [00:53:50] I rather do multiple treatments, like I enjoy doing Invisalign, composite [00:53:55] bonding, veneers. Um, so I’d rather continue doing that even even down [00:54:00] the line.

Payman Langroudi: And, um.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah, for me it’s more surgical areas. [00:54:05] Yeah. Implants like graft, these sort of things. And, [00:54:10] uh, yeah, we would like to at some point opening our own [00:54:15] practice and. Yeah, uh, I think that [00:54:20] would be like a interesting and exciting journey. I think it’s going to be difficult. [00:54:25] It’s difficult to run the practice. Uh, but yeah, [00:54:30] I’m seeing myself there to have like, my own practice [00:54:35] and, uh, I think it’s, uh. Yeah, it’s like a different journey [00:54:40] and it’s it’s going to be really.

Payman Langroudi: So have you done much surgical already or.

Mahan Mohaghegh: No. [00:54:45] I am planning to go to the course for the implant.

[TRANSITION]: Uh.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Burt [00:54:50] in Leeds. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Uh, so this is basically. [00:54:55] But I have done lots of, like, difficult extractions back, back in Hungary [00:55:00] and, like, uh, incisions, these sort of things I have done in, um, [00:55:05] like blood.

[TRANSITION]: Huh.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Funny, because, uh, when I [00:55:10] was in university, I think we had, like, uh, pathology, and, [00:55:15] um, it was our first practical, uh, maybe a class [00:55:20] and even the pathology. You know, like, you see, like cadavers and everything. [00:55:25] And it was smelling really bad the first day I didn’t I wasn’t eating, I didn’t eat anything. [00:55:30] I went there, and suddenly I felt like my head is shaking.

Payman Langroudi: I was smelling [00:55:35] that smell all over the place.

[TRANSITION]: After that.

Mahan Mohaghegh: We used to wear, like, two masks [00:55:40] and.

[TRANSITION]: Put aftershave on. Yeah. Good idea, good idea. But yeah. [00:55:45]

Mahan Mohaghegh: But now. Yeah. I love like this. A bit like surgical stuff. And I [00:55:50] feel like we were, like, talking. And I think because we are like partners. So [00:55:55] it’s better to just. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Each in different direction.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Direction rather than. Yeah. [00:56:00] Uh, yeah. So I’m more towards that [00:56:05] sort of dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: So what would your practice look like? Like have you got [00:56:10] an idea of, like, what kind of. Maybe it’s a bit too early to decide.

[TRANSITION]: I think so. [00:56:15]

Sara Khandan: It’s very true. Because even if you want to open a practice, that would definitely be in five years or six years [00:56:20] time, so not any time soon. Um, I, I would [00:56:25] definitely make it a fully private practice because nothing [00:56:30] with energies. Because, um. What? Um, not that anything against [00:56:35] energies or like performance numbers. I think it is very essential to still have a performance number [00:56:40] in this country because NHS is still the foundation of dentistry [00:56:45] here. But, um, hopefully in five years time it would be more [00:56:50] of the private dentistry.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t think you need to perform a number anymore.

Sara Khandan: Do [00:56:55] you think so? I am still happy that I went [00:57:00] through everything with NHS for the first.

Payman Langroudi: You did that, but I don’t think you really need to bother [00:57:05] anymore. I mean, imagine going back to the NHS now.

[TRANSITION]: It would be really difficult. [00:57:10] It would be very, very even.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Even like, as I said, like we work two days now, [00:57:15] still we do two days NHS.

Payman Langroudi: Find that.

[TRANSITION]: Hard. Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: It’s amazing [00:57:20] because I used to work five days, 8 to 5 NHS [00:57:25] and it was like a routine for me. But after doing like a few days private, it’s [00:57:30] just difficult to do that NHS thing again. It’s been only like few months now, [00:57:35] so imagine if you work like few years and then want to go back. It’s. But I think it’s [00:57:40] with the NHS and private. We talk about that a lot. But I [00:57:45] think that then it’s the some, some dentists they still would rather [00:57:50] do NHS. I don’t know how they like how why, [00:57:55] I don’t know why they like it but lots of. Yeah I’ve heard like some as you said, like [00:58:00] you heard from one uh, like one of your interview.

[TRANSITION]: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but.

[TRANSITION]: I know. [00:58:05]

Payman Langroudi: I know the kind of dentists you’re talking about. There’s some some dentists don’t want to talk to the patient. [00:58:10]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, they know, you know, that. How to navigate [00:58:15] the NHS system. And, uh, you know, that’s [00:58:20] the life.

[TRANSITION]: That.

Payman Langroudi: They’re good at doing. I get that.

[TRANSITION]: I get it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t think it’s [00:58:25] right for you to do.

[TRANSITION]: No, no, I.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Can’t do that. That’s the thing. So I can’t really I [00:58:30] can’t see myself doing that. Not that I’m like perfect or.

[TRANSITION]: Like a different.

Payman Langroudi: Way.

[TRANSITION]: Of practising. [00:58:35] Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: It’s a different. Yeah.

Sara Khandan: And I think what really makes it harder now that [00:58:40] we’re doing private and NHS, it’s just you have to change all your mentality. [00:58:45] Like when you go to the NHS practice, you have to see things differently rather than [00:58:50] when you go to a fully.

[TRANSITION]: Very.

Payman Langroudi: Hard to.

[TRANSITION]: Do both.

Sara Khandan: It’s very.

[TRANSITION]: Hard.

Payman Langroudi: You end up either slowing down your NHS [00:58:55] or speeding up your.

[TRANSITION]: Exactly, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: It’s one of those things and I would suggest slow down. Your NHS [00:59:00] is the best way to do that. Um, maybe get photos or whatever, [00:59:05] you know, improve. Um, because.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: That’s.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the right [00:59:10] move. Let’s get to darker days.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What’s been the darkest day in this journey? [00:59:15]

Sara Khandan: Um. The beginning when we came here. [00:59:20] Um.

Payman Langroudi: Darker than all the stuff that happened in Hungary.

Sara Khandan: Yeah, definitely.

[TRANSITION]: Why? [00:59:25]

Sara Khandan: I was so scared. Obviously, we had heard about the [00:59:30] sewing culture and everything here in this country. But once we escape. [00:59:35] So we we, like, we haven’t had the experience, but just the fear of it was [00:59:40] so hard on us. I remember at the beginning, when we came here, I couldn’t even sleep [00:59:45] at night. I literally I was that scared. I was like, oh my [00:59:50] God, what to do? What sort of notes do I have to write? Because we didn’t have we didn’t have to write a lot of [00:59:55] notes in back in Hungary, like nothing at all.

Payman Langroudi: Now you’re writing essays?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, exactly.

Sara Khandan: Like, what should [01:00:00] I mention? What should I write? Am I doing this right? Like, I had to being a perfectionist [01:00:05] as well. We had to doubt everything. Every single thing. And then because [01:00:10] we started in NHS. I feel like there is. There was also this thought that, [01:00:15] okay, you have had experience before so there’s nothing different, just go and work. Um, [01:00:20] just they did teach us a little bit about NHS, but again they left us there. Go [01:00:25] and start working because obviously you don’t need anything. You’ve been working for many years. So what’s what what to teach [01:00:30] you guys. And that was really scary. Just the, the whole unclarity [01:00:35] of everything.

[TRANSITION]: Like are you still scared?

Sara Khandan: Um, not as much as I used to, [01:00:40] but I always want to double check everything. I’m one of those [01:00:45] kind of kind of dentists. Like, I have to make sure everything is perfect. And that’s why I like it [01:00:50] better with private, because I have my time. I never had that with NHS. And when [01:00:55] even like I did my treatments on NHS, I always did as [01:01:00] much as I could. I wasn’t undertreating like I always tried to, even if [01:01:05] it wasn’t profitable. I was like, no, I have to do this, I have to do it the correct way.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Thing is, if you see [01:01:10] that many patients every day, obviously you’re gonna at some point miss something or [01:01:15] do something wrong. You know what I mean? We’re not like robots. We are like humans, so we [01:01:20] can’t miss. But for me, I think I would say if you, uh, with this [01:01:25] journey, I mean, like I would say in university in, uh, starting the [01:01:30] third year, uh, we so we it was the basically [01:01:35] a prosthodontic, uh, class. So we starting to basically [01:01:40] prep the tooth on the mannequins and these sort of things. And just suddenly, after [01:01:45] four weeks, they taught us about how the tooth prep and everything. And [01:01:50] then from the fourth week, we every week we had to prep a tooth. And [01:01:55] then we had like this teacher that he used to wear like a loop and just, [01:02:00] yeah, examine the tooth itself. If there was like a slight undercut [01:02:05] or everything, they would just fail Failed you. So if you got, like, four, uh, like, [01:02:10] sessions failed as a fail, then you would just.

Payman Langroudi: I could kick you out.

Mahan Mohaghegh: That would kick you out? Yeah, [01:02:15] that was my night. I got I think you were three. Yeah, I got to the [01:02:20] last one. I was like, yeah, the last weeks I was just literally shaking and I. [01:02:25] Now I’m seeing that. What? Why should be like that? You know what I mean? So it’s just the [01:02:30] starting of third year. I’m still like a beginner. So you have to help [01:02:35] the students to learn. Not like, because with that much pressure, obviously, if you [01:02:40] put that pressure on me now as, like a dentist with 7 or 8 years of seven years [01:02:45] experience, I would do a mistake. Even now, I can’t really do a crown [01:02:50] prep without just like perfect. Perfect because I used to wear like a loop to.

[TRANSITION]: See every. [01:02:55]

Mahan Mohaghegh: Single thing.

Payman Langroudi: I think, you know, it’s weird, that kind of culture of abuse [01:03:00] of a dental student. Yeah, it definitely exists here as well. Yeah, maybe it’s [01:03:05] changed now, but in my day, 100%. And then I remember I became a dentist [01:03:10] and I was a junior, like dentist working in the hospital. And I spoke to one [01:03:15] of my teachers and I said, why were you like that? Like why? And and he said, oh yeah, [01:03:20] suppress your job.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So we could put you guys under pressure. And I think that’s [01:03:25] an excuse, man. You know, like it’s almost like the abused person becomes an abuser. [01:03:30]

[TRANSITION]: Themselves or something.

Mahan Mohaghegh: That’s the thing. So I think it comes from like it’s [01:03:35] going to be like really psychological thing. But like some, some teachers that were like really nice. [01:03:40] But some of them they just yeah, they try to and [01:03:45] I think he was one of that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: One of those.

[TRANSITION]: Guys.

Payman Langroudi: What about mistakes. We like talk about mistakes. [01:03:50] Clinical errors. What comes to mind when I say what’s been your biggest clinical error in this journey? [01:03:55]

Sara Khandan: Um, in my case, I was quite lucky because it happened in the uni, [01:04:00] actually. Um, so this guy came in, we had to remove his old bridge [01:04:05] and we had to root canal one of his front teeth. And then I put on a new bridge. And, um, [01:04:10] when I was doing the root canal, I perforated the tooth because for some reason that tooth was prepared, [01:04:15] and it was really hard to find the proper access cavity on it. Yeah. So his tooth [01:04:20] was, was, um, perforated. And we eventually we had to take the tooth out. [01:04:25]

Payman Langroudi: So I don’t really allow university mistakes. We’ve [01:04:30] all made mistakes.

[TRANSITION]: University.

Payman Langroudi: You think about it.

[TRANSITION]: Tell me about.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about your biggest mistakes. [01:04:35]

[TRANSITION]: Uh.

Mahan Mohaghegh: I think mine was, uh, just after, [01:04:40] like, a few weeks or few months, uh, moving to the UK, [01:04:45] and it was like, really? As she said, like a stressful time.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Um, [01:04:50] I was doing like, it was my, I think first, uh, root canal treatment [01:04:55] here, uh, in, uh, basically UK. And, um, I [01:05:00] didn’t have they basically we, we have like a rotary system, but [01:05:05] I didn’t, uh, have my, like, regular, uh, basically, [01:05:10] uh, system.

[TRANSITION]: That used to.

Mahan Mohaghegh: You ever used to. Yeah. I’ve just found, like some rotary [01:05:15] files and I start to do it and. Yeah, I broke broke a file in, [01:05:20] in the canal, and I was like, oh my God, but I think I [01:05:25] shouldn’t have. I mean, I feel so it was like a lower six. [01:05:30] So I fill out the two other canals and I just left that there [01:05:35] and I gave I think I gave antibiotic and it wasn’t. So it’s yeah [01:05:40] there wasn’t causing any issue. So the patient didn’t come back. But yeah [01:05:45] that was.

[TRANSITION]: I.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t get it removed.

[TRANSITION]: Or I.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Couldn’t.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Did you.

Payman Langroudi: Fill around.

[TRANSITION]: It or.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah I did [01:05:50] fill out the top of it. And it was like in a good area. So it wasn’t like it was [01:05:55] like the apical end and it felt like it was. But I gave the patient the [01:06:00] option of doing. He was like, I think he was like 21, 22 [01:06:05] years old. And yeah, he.

[TRANSITION]: Was really.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Care.

Payman Langroudi: He was.

[TRANSITION]: Calm. Yeah. [01:06:10]

Mahan Mohaghegh: He wasn’t really.

[TRANSITION]: Giving.

Mahan Mohaghegh: I was more worried than him. But [01:06:15] yeah, I think that would be my biggest mistake, because I shouldn’t have.

[TRANSITION]: Used [01:06:20] it without knowing.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Without knowing what was.

[TRANSITION]: Going on.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know, man. That’s a happy ending. I’m [01:06:25] looking for unhappy ending.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Unhappy ending. [01:06:30]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I get it. You fractured an instrument, right? In eight years [01:06:35] of dentistry, there must be something worse than that. Come on.

Sara Khandan: I once was [01:06:40] doing an extraction. The TMJ got dislocated.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I like that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Sara Khandan: Um. [01:06:45]

Payman Langroudi: So where was.

[TRANSITION]: This?

Sara Khandan: Hungary.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Sara Khandan: Um, so [01:06:50] for some reason, that tooth wasn’t coming out. It was just. We tried really [01:06:55] hard. It wasn’t coming out. And eventually, I think it was so much pressure on the tooth because we were trying to get [01:07:00] it out and, um, the joint got dislocated.

Payman Langroudi: And did you understand what was happening? [01:07:05]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. I mean, you could. Yeah, you could literally.

Sara Khandan: Feel it coming out of the.

[TRANSITION]: Socket.

Sara Khandan: And [01:07:10] the patient was like, I can’t feel my joint. I was like, it’s okay. It’s just dislocated. Like, we can easily put it back [01:07:15] in place. Um, so we, um, just to make sure I wanted her to [01:07:20] be in the hospital, because obviously you have to use a very proper technique. I didn’t want to fracture everything. [01:07:25] Um, so we called the ambulance. She went to the hospital, and they just relocated [01:07:30] the.

Mahan Mohaghegh: The most important things in these cases, I think, is to you as [01:07:35] a dentist. Stay calm. It’s really. It’s difficult. It’s really difficult. But it is the [01:07:40] main thing.

[TRANSITION]: That’s.

Payman Langroudi: Back to that teacher saying, oh, we put pressure on you.

[TRANSITION]: Because. Yeah, thank [01:07:45] you.

Sara Khandan: And I’m really good at this. I always keep my calm. I was freaking [01:07:50] out from inside. I was like, oh my God. This is the first time.

Payman Langroudi: I did my elective in San Francisco. [01:07:55] And on the wall it said, never say oops.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, that’s [01:08:00] the best. Yeah. Oops.

Payman Langroudi: Another another story [01:08:05] for.

[TRANSITION]: You maybe, uh, can’t.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Really find anything.

[TRANSITION]: That treatment.

Payman Langroudi: Planning [01:08:10] error.

[TRANSITION]: Patient.

Payman Langroudi: Lost confidence.

[TRANSITION]: Something like these things. [01:08:15]

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. Those things happens I think like.

[TRANSITION]: All right, all right.

Payman Langroudi: It [01:08:20] doesn’t have to be a terrible story. Like, tell me something that’s gone wrong and it’s taught to you.

[TRANSITION]: Uh. [01:08:25]

Payman Langroudi: Dentistry, you know, like like something [01:08:30] that you did. Maybe it failed earlier than you thought it would fail. And you changed your approach. [01:08:35]

Mahan Mohaghegh: Maybe with these things again, first thing I would say is. But [01:08:40] that happens. I think lots of people like dentures. These are like dentures are really [01:08:45] tricky. And even the best, best prosthodontics. Or they could [01:08:50] yeah, have like some cases which have failed, uh, maybe. [01:08:55] I think the only thing that I could remember, I was, like, doing the cobalt chrome denture [01:09:00] and, uh, the, uh, lure, the. When [01:09:05] I asked for the metal, uh, framework trying, I [01:09:10] could feel that, uh, the trying wasn’t sitting full. [01:09:15] It wasn’t going completely in, but I didn’t ask for [01:09:20] another try in, so I didn’t ask.

[TRANSITION]: To modify.

Mahan Mohaghegh: It. I just went ahead. And [01:09:25] then eventually it ended up me giving the money back and everything. I [01:09:30] think that would be the yeah, that’s if you count this one as a bad [01:09:35] outcome.

Sara Khandan: Yeah, I think it does happen.

[TRANSITION]: But that’s a learning point, right? Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: That’s how like [01:09:40] I learned now that if I, if I feel like during this that’s why you do the trying. [01:09:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. You know what I mean.

Mahan Mohaghegh: So if you don’t want to, if you don’t have like, uh, leave [01:09:50] it, then there is no point of doing trying.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: So I think that was my.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:09:55] I like that. I’m gonna let you off the hook.

Sara Khandan: Actually, when you asked me about the darkest [01:10:00] parts, um, I was thinking that and one other thing, which I think was really, really [01:10:05] hard for me when I was back in uni, I always thought, okay, if I try my best, [01:10:10] be the top of my class, everything is, my future is sorted. It’s [01:10:15] just important for me just to be the best, get the highest grade and everything. And eventually it [01:10:20] happened. It was the top of my. I was the top of my class and once I graduated, whenever, [01:10:25] wherever I wanted to go, everyone were like, sorry, you need a visa. It’s just [01:10:30] your nationality. You. It doesn’t matter if you were the best in the uni, you you still [01:10:35] need to go through all that and it’s it’s not going to work out. And I think it I felt [01:10:40] life is really, really unfair. Um, it, it was even up until now again [01:10:45] because of this visa.

[TRANSITION]: Life is unfair.

Sara Khandan: It is, it is.

Payman Langroudi: Life is unfair. There’s no doubt about [01:10:50] that. But, um. But you’re right. I mean, listen, you’ve done really well, both of you. Yeah, because [01:10:55] even guys who qualify here don’t need a visa. A lot of them don’t manage to [01:11:00] go through the NHS into private within three years. A lot of them don’t manage it. So [01:11:05] you’ve both done very well in that respect. Thank you. But having to have a visa in the middle of it [01:11:10] all, um, I think some of the bigger corporates help with visas [01:11:15] as well. Um, but.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: It’s mainly the big corporate that they do. [01:11:20]

Payman Langroudi: Um, you know, like what you let’s say you become this wonderful cosmetic [01:11:25] dentist. Yeah. Sometimes you’ll do a wonderful job and the patient will just not [01:11:30] like it. Yeah. And cosmetic dentistry is kind of like that. Yeah. You know, [01:11:35] it’s a big problem. I used to do a lot of veneers back in our day before ortho existed. [01:11:40] Right. Before Invisalign. Before Invisalign existed. And sometimes a patient would walk [01:11:45] out delighted, delighted, and then come back one week later and say, I don’t like.

[TRANSITION]: It.

Sara Khandan: Because of [01:11:50] the family.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, something something happened.

[TRANSITION]: You.

Payman Langroudi: Know.

[TRANSITION]: Like.

Payman Langroudi: They spent a lot of money. Uh, [01:11:55] you know, you love people for their weaknesses, not their strengths.

[TRANSITION]: That’s true.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So, [01:12:00] like, I don’t know, the grandchild was used to the spaced teeth or whatever [01:12:05] it is. Yeah. And there’s nothing you can say to someone who says I don’t like it. You [01:12:10] know, even if you said you liked it two weeks ago, I don’t like it now. Yeah, it’s a nightmare. [01:12:15] It’s a total nightmare. And then on, on every sort of scientific basis, maybe you did everything exactly [01:12:20] right, but patient doesn’t like it.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, or.

Payman Langroudi: Or it [01:12:25] could be consent. You know, consent. You know, whatever they signed, whatever [01:12:30] you explained, whatever you put in the notes, patients can just say I didn’t understand.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, [01:12:35] yeah, it could happen.

Payman Langroudi: And then. And then sometimes you get the two together. Yeah. It’s a total [01:12:40] nightmare. Yeah. Yeah. I didn’t understand what the risks were now [01:12:45] that this thing has happened, I also don’t like it. Yeah, a total nightmare [01:12:50] for a cosmetic dentist.

[TRANSITION]: It caused.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Me tears.

[TRANSITION]: It caused me that it’s.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Just gonna.

[TRANSITION]: Start.

Payman Langroudi: A total nightmare [01:12:55] for cosmetic. Now, I like cosmetics, too. Yeah, I like, wants dentistry [01:13:00] rather than needs dentistry. Yeah, but. But they come with their own issues, [01:13:05] right? Each one of them comes with its own issues and, you know, composite bonding, staining. You know, like, God [01:13:10] knows we do a composite course staining that happens with composite, right. The [01:13:15] amount of problems that we’re going to have with composite going forward. Yeah.

Sara Khandan: But [01:13:20] I think at the end of the day it comes down to the communication. I think if you try to communicate [01:13:25] with them profoundly, they would understand the whole process [01:13:30] and the chances of them coming and complaining later is much, much lower.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Sara Khandan: So [01:13:35] that’s why private better. Because you have more time for the people.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t sue people they like.

Sara Khandan: That’s so [01:13:40] true. Yeah, that’s that’s what was different from Hungary because, um, in here, communication [01:13:45] is so important and it’s not about your clinical skill, but more [01:13:50] about your communicating skills that can, um, save you from a lot of complications in [01:13:55] future. Whereas in Hungary, the communication wasn’t as important. It’s about what you do and how you are as a [01:14:00] dentist and not how nice you are.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the number of people I’ve had here, bosses saying [01:14:05] they hire because of attitude.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The majority, in fact. The more [01:14:10] private, the more they say that. Yeah. And and then you think I was top of my class.

[TRANSITION]: Exactly. [01:14:15]

Payman Langroudi: Or I’ve been on so and so course.

[TRANSITION]: You know.

Payman Langroudi: Look. So I’m gonna we’ve got [01:14:20] a new thing. I don’t know whether you’ve you’ve come across it yet. It’s kind of a quickfire kind of thing. So [01:14:25] the best dental lecture you’ve ever been to?

Mahan Mohaghegh: Dental lecture. [01:14:30]

Sara Khandan: Um, for me, it was [01:14:35] recent. It was not like a lecture. It was the course from accent. Um, [01:14:40] and, um, it was about Prosecco. It was about, um, Crown [01:14:45] preparations and everything. We had to go to East Grinstead, the hospital. And [01:14:50] I don’t remember the name of the professor, but he’s one of the professors at Kings College, and [01:14:55] it was one of the best courses I’ve been to. He was so down [01:15:00] to earth, so nice. Someone coming from Kings College, being a professor there. And just [01:15:05] so nice.

Payman Langroudi: Was it called you must remember.

Sara Khandan: I don’t remember.

[TRANSITION]: Was it.

Payman Langroudi: Banerjee? Banerjee? [01:15:10]

[TRANSITION]: Maybe.

Mahan Mohaghegh: No, no, I think, uh, Doctor Miller.

Sara Khandan: I [01:15:15] don’t remember. I’m. I’m so bad at names. Sorry.

[TRANSITION]: That’s okay.

Sara Khandan: But [01:15:20] it was really good.

[TRANSITION]: Uh.

Mahan Mohaghegh: I think [01:15:25] best course out of university and not.

[TRANSITION]: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: Best lecturer. [01:15:30]

[TRANSITION]: I thought.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Best lecturer. I feel like I have, uh, we had, like, this paediatrics, [01:15:35] uh, teacher in, uh, Hungary. And among [01:15:40] those, as I told you, like the professor?

[TRANSITION]: They’re like, yeah, he.

Mahan Mohaghegh: She was [01:15:45] like the nicest one. And she was like, more like she, she was going through all the steps [01:15:50] and she was like, trying to teach you. You could feel that rather than trying to examine [01:15:55] you, like trying to test you basically, I [01:16:00] think. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: You like that.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. I think that was my.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about course you’re desperate to [01:16:05] go on.

[TRANSITION]: Uh.

Sara Khandan: The crease or you’re [01:16:10] going.

[TRANSITION]: Right. Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: That’s, [01:16:15] I think more like maybe implant [01:16:20] courses. Yeah, but I think I’m going to bed, so. But after that, [01:16:25] I think I would like to because it’s really important with these sort of like if you [01:16:30] learn something new.

[TRANSITION]: You practice, practice it.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Other than that, you’re just gonna. [01:16:35] Yeah, you’re never gonna do it. So yeah, I’ve come across like some of the [01:16:40] courses that you can like go and do just they don’t teach you the implant. They just [01:16:45] give you like the possibility to do implants. Uh, by the supervision [01:16:50] of like, another dentist. So I feel like, yeah, one of those courses [01:16:55] after like a year after I finished my current course and, uh. [01:17:00] Yeah. And do more like, uh, surgical stuff, I would say. So, [01:17:05] like sinus lift, these sort of things. I wanted to actually, [01:17:10] maybe I would at some point go to like, oral surgery, but [01:17:15] that’s. Yeah, something in the future.

Payman Langroudi: As in max.

[TRANSITION]: Facts.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Not as a max [01:17:20] fact. Just just. Yeah, I think so.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Because [01:17:25] Max facts is like.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, it’s another world. Another. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about favourite [01:17:30] book? Dental.

Sara Khandan: Um, for me, the mentors that I had [01:17:35] were way more beneficial than the books that I had in uni. Way [01:17:40] more beneficial.

[TRANSITION]: It tend to be. Yeah, yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Because in in the.

Payman Langroudi: Continue to have mentors by the way. [01:17:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Important.

Sara Khandan: Very very important.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you, have you got one now?

Sara Khandan: Not now. [01:17:50]

[TRANSITION]: You need one.

Payman Langroudi: You need one. Yeah. Because, you know, you might next want to go to [01:17:55] full mouth rehab.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You need a mentor. Like you cannot [01:18:00] do that without a mentor. Implants. You cannot do without mentor. I guess Hassan is [01:18:05] going to be your mentor.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Sara Khandan: The name of the book was Schellenberg.

[TRANSITION]: Schellenberg.

Sara Khandan: Yeah. [01:18:10] Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Schellenberg. Good book.

Mahan Mohaghegh: It was a good book.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: It is a good book. Schellenberg. [01:18:15] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So we’ve come to the end of our time. It’s gone quick. Um. [01:18:20] Final questions. Fantasy dinner party. Three [01:18:25] guests, dead or alive. Is this going to be two dinner parties or one?

[TRANSITION]: Probably [01:18:30] two. Go separate. Yeah. Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Because. Yeah, [01:18:35] I think our. Ah, yeah. Our guess would be different.

[TRANSITION]: So they [01:18:40] don’t get along with each other.

Payman Langroudi: Einstein doesn’t get along.

[TRANSITION]: With the.

Payman Langroudi: Shah [01:18:45] of Iran. But go ahead.

Sara Khandan: My number one would definitely be my granddad. [01:18:50] Um, he passed away a few weeks ago, and, um, I didn’t see [01:18:55] him for six years, and I was actually planning to see him in a month’s time. And it’s.

[TRANSITION]: Just so.

Sara Khandan: Sad [01:19:00] that he passed away three weeks ago. So that would be definitely my number one guest.

[TRANSITION]: Is that.

Payman Langroudi: Your mum’s [01:19:05] dad or.

[TRANSITION]: Your.

Sara Khandan: Yes, my mum’s dad. Um. And we were really, really close, so it’s it’s [01:19:10] such a bad time now. Um, the second guest would be Oprah Winfrey. I [01:19:15] just.

[TRANSITION]: Oprah.

Sara Khandan: Yeah, I love her. Huge role model of mine. Um, [01:19:20] and the third one would be my niece. Um, I never yeah. [01:19:25] I mean, she’s a little bit less than a year. I never get enough of her, [01:19:30] and I would probably just stop playing with her rather than having a proper dinner, but, um. [01:19:35]

[TRANSITION]: She’s.

Payman Langroudi: In.

[TRANSITION]: France.

Sara Khandan: Yes, she’s in France. She’s mixed Iranian and French.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, [01:19:40] nice.

Sara Khandan: Yeah. So, um, I’m just so worried that are we going to be able to communicate at some [01:19:45] point. Because I don’t speak French that well. So, um. Definitely, um, [01:19:50] I would have her, as I said.

[TRANSITION]: Yes. Nice.

Payman Langroudi: What about you, man?

Mahan Mohaghegh: For [01:19:55] me, I think the first one would be Lionel Messi.

[TRANSITION]: I’m [01:20:00] a huge fan of.

Sara Khandan: That’s why it’s two dinners.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Um, yeah. I’m a die [01:20:05] hard fan of, like, football and everything. I just watch a lot. And she always gets. Oh, [01:20:10] you’re watching football again? And, uh, second [01:20:15] one would be, uh, Cyrus the [01:20:20] Great. Oh, yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Nice.

Mahan Mohaghegh: He was, uh, king of Persia, you [01:20:25] know? And, uh. Yeah, the third one would be Rowan [01:20:30] Atkinson. Rowan. Atkinson. Mr. [01:20:35] bean. I think it was. It would be like a really fun, interesting. [01:20:40]

Payman Langroudi: Cyrus the great Mr. Bean. Do you want Mr. Bean or do you want Rowan [01:20:45] Atkinson?

Mahan Mohaghegh: They’re all together.

[TRANSITION]: I thought it’s going to be like a separate dinner party.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Oh, okay. But still. [01:20:50] Yeah, it would be the case.

Payman Langroudi: Final question. Deathbed. It’s a [01:20:55] deathbed question. Three pieces of advice for your loved ones on your deathbed.

Sara Khandan: Three [01:21:00] pieces of advice. Uh.

Payman Langroudi: Bear in mind it could be. It could be. Hey, I [01:21:05] was top of my class. You should be top of your class, too. That’s one way of doing. That’s one way.

[TRANSITION]: Of doing it. That’s one way of doing [01:21:10] it.

Payman Langroudi: But another way of doing it is say, I wasn’t top of my class. You should.

[TRANSITION]: Be.

Payman Langroudi: You know. So [01:21:15] what would you say?

Sara Khandan: I would say be kind. [01:21:20] Life is hard enough. Don’t make it harder for each other. Definitely be kind. Um. [01:21:25] Try your best. Doesn’t matter if you’re not the [01:21:30] best. As long as you’ve tried your best, that’s enough. You shouldn’t always do things perfectly, [01:21:35] um, in your life. Um, at some point, we [01:21:40] are gonna die. So you’re not going to get out of this life alive. Just. Just enjoy it as much as you can.

Payman Langroudi: Nice. [01:21:45] What about one of the ones that you weren’t? Is enjoy life. One of them. Are [01:21:50] you not enjoying life enough?

[TRANSITION]: No.

Sara Khandan: No.

[TRANSITION]: I [01:21:55] mean, um.

Sara Khandan: I am in my own way. So sometimes you’re enjoying. [01:22:00]

Payman Langroudi: But what is it that that you would advise your kids to do that you didn’t do? [01:22:05]

Sara Khandan: Um. You don’t have to be perfect.

Payman Langroudi: Are you a perfectionist?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:22:10]

Sara Khandan: And I think it has made life way harder for me. And now that I’m understanding [01:22:15] the whole concept of that, you don’t need to be perfect for doing [01:22:20] things. Like, you can just just do it. And it doesn’t have to be perfect and it still works. [01:22:25] Um, that would be definitely my number one thing that I would tell them and be kind because [01:22:30] I literally feel that, um, as long as you’re kind to people, you are having a good [01:22:35] life.

Payman Langroudi: The perfection thing holds you back big time.

[TRANSITION]: It does. Big time.

Payman Langroudi: You know, if you want to [01:22:40] open this practice. Yeah. A lot, a lot of it is not going to be perfect to start with. [01:22:45] A lot of it. And in fact, you know, I’ve had people here, I had the [01:22:50] CEO of Bupa write 400 practices they’re running or I had I mean, [01:22:55] he’s more of a corporate guy. I had Anushka, she’s got 43 practices, right? Um, [01:23:00] but I’ve had other people, in fact, my hero in dentistry. One [01:23:05] practice. Yeah. Yeah. And making it better and better and incrementally [01:23:10] improving it. And over a period of 40 years. Yeah. You cannot. [01:23:15] There is no perfect.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. There is no perfect. How about you?

Payman Langroudi: What do you think?

[TRANSITION]: Uh. [01:23:20]

Mahan Mohaghegh: I think I would say the first thing is don’t [01:23:25] give up and, uh, The try to basically [01:23:30] don’t give up. That’s the main thing. And uh, also try [01:23:35] to be, uh, you can’t be stress free, but yeah, don’t [01:23:40] stress out about everything. Uh, don’t give up and don’t regret because [01:23:45] you’re gonna fail. Uh, whatever you do, you’re gonna fail at some [01:23:50] point. And that happens for everyone. And, uh, third thing I would say [01:23:55] that try to learn as many languages as you can while you’re growing up. That’s [01:24:00] going to help you a lot. Like, even even like, you never know. So it’s always [01:24:05] good to.

Payman Langroudi: Language is a funny thing. Yeah. Because I don’t think going forward is going to be an issue, man. [01:24:10] Like going forward there’s going to be something in your ear and but but but learning [01:24:15] a language is a bit like learning a musical instrument or something like it makes connections in your brain. [01:24:20]

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah, exactly.

[TRANSITION]: It’s true. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: My kids go to French school and they’ve learned everything in [01:24:25] French and they’ve got a Lebanese mother and an Iranian dad and they live in. In London. [01:24:30] Right. So there’s a lot of languages.

[TRANSITION]: Mixed.

Payman Langroudi: In. And I always used to think, you know, is it really going to help? My [01:24:35] son wants to be an aerospace engineer, right. Is it going to help especially with AI and all that?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:24:40]

Mahan Mohaghegh: That’s true again.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But but we all know we’ve got connections in our head. Right. [01:24:45] From learning different languages that like overall make you a better person.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:24:50] That’s true.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Well, sorry. Although it’s like with the AI and everything, it’s [01:24:55] gonna change quite a lot. But still, I don’t think you [01:25:00] can, like, express yourself with, like, these sort of.

Payman Langroudi: Iranian [01:25:05] jokes.

[TRANSITION]: Right? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: They don’t translate because honestly.

Sara Khandan: With [01:25:10] languages, you feel like a different person when you’re [01:25:15] speaking that specific language. And it’s.

[TRANSITION]: So interesting.

Payman Langroudi: What you said about Hungary, that it changed the [01:25:20] people as soon as you started.

[TRANSITION]: Speaking.

Payman Langroudi: Their language.

[TRANSITION]: Right.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah, exactly.

[TRANSITION]: Actually, I.

Payman Langroudi: Came across [01:25:25] an English guy who speak perfect Farsi.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, nice.

Payman Langroudi: And I couldn’t believe it. You know, [01:25:30] I was like, wow.

[TRANSITION]: It’s unbelievable. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s been amazing to have you. I really enjoyed it.

[TRANSITION]: Thanks [01:25:35] for having us. Thanks for.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Having. It was an amazing. Yeah. Thank you for having us.

[VOICE]: This [01:25:40] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you [01:25:45] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:25:50] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [01:25:55]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to [01:26:00] the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and [01:26:05] listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value [01:26:10] out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And [01:26:15] if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, [01:26:20] so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast has been brought to you by Mini Smile Makeover. Mini Smile Makeover is a two day anterior [00:00:05] composite course led by the extraordinary talented doctor Dipesh Palmer. Two [00:00:10] days of full on, hands on composite training, purely focussed on [00:00:15] anterior work composite veneers, polishing, finishing, shade matching. You also [00:00:20] get a free enlightened kit. Plus we have a great time and a party in the middle. Find out the dates. [00:00:25] Mini smile makeover.com. Now let’s get back to the podcast.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. [00:00:35] The podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:00:40] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome Kash Qureshi onto the podcast. The third [00:00:55] technician that we’ve had on this pod. Um, I think, you know, we don’t [00:01:00] give enough credit to our technician colleagues. And we all know those of us who’ve practised for a few years. [00:01:05] The difference a technician can make to your life in terms of. [00:01:10] I’ve worked with some technicians that make me look amazing and the opposite [00:01:15] as well. I’ve had situations I’ve had and you really realise it when [00:01:20] you change practice as an associate. I remember having a technician I adored, [00:01:25] someone who taught me so much. Yeah. Changing practice. And then in the new practice, they’re saying [00:01:30] you have to use this lab. And where I’d never had a situation where the crown [00:01:35] wouldn’t even fit. Yeah. Suddenly the first three crowns weren’t fitting, and [00:01:40] I suddenly realised, oh, my God, how good was my technician before? So it’s a massive pleasure to have you. Thanks for [00:01:45] coming all the way.

Kash Qureshi: Oh, thanks for having me as well. Um, you know, I really appreciate your time. And [00:01:50] thank you for letting me go on this podcast.

Payman Langroudi: My pleasure. So, cash, you own Bremer Dent? [00:01:55]

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. In London.

Payman Langroudi: You’re a clinical dental technician as well.

Kash Qureshi: That’s right. I run the [00:02:00] denture clinic as well.

Payman Langroudi: There’s an E in there.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. There is. It’s [00:02:05] Susie. Susie dent.

Payman Langroudi: Is that because there was another Swiss dent and you had to add an E to differentiate?

Kash Qureshi: You [00:02:10] own the trademark to it now? Um. Yeah. Susie. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: What does it mean?

Kash Qureshi: It was a system [00:02:15] that was developed in the 1950s from the Swiss Bank Corporation [00:02:20] in America. They’d done something with Angela. Uh, Angela done something [00:02:25] with a group of dentists and technicians. It was a way of dentists to communicate with their [00:02:30] technicians when it comes to dentures, because we know how difficult dentures are between the two. And [00:02:35] it was a system that was put in place. So everyone was singing from the same hymn sheet. And it worked for many, many [00:02:40] years. And then, um, I think the guy passed away who who ran it and [00:02:45] then it just went sort of downhill from there. Um, but I, I [00:02:50] trained on that system, and that helped me pass my clinical course as well, because it [00:02:55] was a Training from a dentist point of view as well as a technician. I sort of had both [00:03:00] aspects, the clinical and technical, and it worked quite well. One question I do want to bring [00:03:05] up. Yeah, you said that I’m the third technician who was the other two before me.

Payman Langroudi: Had Michael [00:03:10] Joseph.

Kash Qureshi: Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Right.

Kash Qureshi: Right right right. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And Simon Caxton. Is [00:03:15] it Simon Caxton. Yeah. That’s [00:03:20] a bit embarrassing. Um, but [00:03:25] both of them told me that dental [00:03:30] technology and being a dental technician isn’t something that the public know anything [00:03:35] about. That’s right. Because you guys are kind of in the behind the scenes. Yeah. And so, [00:03:40] you know, it’s not something that people even consider going into because they don’t even know it exists. [00:03:45] Yeah. So what was your thinking like how did you trip over becoming a dental [00:03:50] technician? Were you thinking of doing other things? What how did it happen for you?

Kash Qureshi: I think, um, [00:03:55] we’ve got to sort of go back to growing up in East London. That’s where I’m originally from, from Walthamstow. [00:04:00] And it was a very rough environment growing [00:04:05] up in Walthamstow. It’s not you know, it wasn’t great as it is now. It’s very, very nice to go [00:04:10] now. It is, isn’t it, when you go down there. But um. Yeah. So how [00:04:15] can I say it’s quite a long story short. Uh, by the time [00:04:20] I was, like, 15, um, I’d been into various situations [00:04:25] where knives were involved. Um, the youngest time when I had a knife up against my [00:04:30] throat, I was like eight. The second time was 12. Um, I got robbed [00:04:35] at that time. I just come back from Pakistan because I’m Pakistani and I was wearing all my gold [00:04:40] stuff. Like, are.

Payman Langroudi: You born here?

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, I was born here in Watford.

Payman Langroudi: And your parents? [00:04:45] When?

Kash Qureshi: Pakistan.

Payman Langroudi: When did they come over? Like, how old were they?

Kash Qureshi: I think they were young, like two [00:04:50] or something like that. And I remember I was at the chicken shop that was 12 years old and, [00:04:55] um, yeah, they took everything from me. So I went to my uncle’s who was literally [00:05:00] up the road, and I thought, oh, my uncle’s going to get all my stuff back. And, um, [00:05:05] no, he just drove me back home. So I just remembered to myself, you know what I thought from [00:05:10] age of 12? I thought, I’m going to have to look out for number one because I’ve got. [00:05:15] No, I didn’t have a big brother or anything like that. So I thought, you know, I’m going to have to look out for myself. So [00:05:20] 15 comes around. Now, the reason why I’m saying this because it was linked to my trajectory [00:05:25] of change, of life. And, uh, 15, I got into a massive altercation. Um, [00:05:30] you end up in them. I don’t go out of my way to go to these things, but they just happen. [00:05:35] And, uh, a group of guys surrounding me, um, I always [00:05:40] remember my mum in my ear saying that if you got any for your life is worth more than [00:05:45] your valuables or whatnot. And at the time, I remember this group of guys around [00:05:50] me and I thought, nah, f that.

Kash Qureshi: When I was 12 years old, I thought, no, that was it. I am not [00:05:55] letting this happen. So in the end, I ended up having, um, a bit of a with [00:06:00] a knife. It just all sort of slashed on the arm. And I went home and, uh, I [00:06:05] sort of patched myself up, and I thought, what do I do here? Do I? Because I didn’t [00:06:10] know I was going through mixed emotions. I didn’t really know what to do. So I thought the only thing I could think of to [00:06:15] do was just me being stupid was, you know what? I’m going to get some bits and I’m going to go straight back to the place [00:06:20] and see what happens. I went straight back there and my heart was pounding, like, literally, you could feel. [00:06:25] You can like my heart was pounding. But I thought, no, I’m just going to go back there. Dah dah dah. So [00:06:30] yeah, that ended up happening. So you could see what sort of trajectory I was going down. [00:06:35] And it was a stage where my mum said to me, right, you need to get [00:06:40] a job or you need to go to college because I didn’t, I didn’t apply.

Payman Langroudi: You went back. What happened when you went back? [00:06:45]

Kash Qureshi: Oh, they didn’t say anything. They were more scared about why I come back to the same place. I’m sorry. I didn’t think I [00:06:50] meant to say anything because I patched myself up. I look like Rambo because I just put a bandaid on there. I put Sudocrem [00:06:55] with Vaseline, I put Vaseline and I put a plaster on it, and obviously [00:07:00] it’s just like slipping around. So then I just put a bandage on and I just went straight back to the. The location was [00:07:05] Ringwood Road. It was literally up the road from the lab where I went to. So when [00:07:10] I was looking for jobs, um, it was a newspaper, The Guardian at [00:07:15] the time, and there was an advert in there to for a plastering worker. I didn’t know what it was [00:07:20] about, so I thought, okay, I’m still going to apply because it’s in Walthamstow, it’s up the road from where I am. And [00:07:25] I thought, well, it’s better than getting involved in that life because I don’t want to be about that [00:07:30] life. It’s it’s a dangerous life. You don’t live that long living that life.

Kash Qureshi: So then [00:07:35] I applied. I sent a letter. When you used to do those things, I attended an interview. [00:07:40] And I just remember my boss, John Gerard, who owned the lab at the time. [00:07:45] He had one of the he had a dry trimmer And he had this model and he was like, [00:07:50] can you do this shape from this? So okay, I’ll give it a try. So I’ve done [00:07:55] it and it was quick at doing it. And he went, oh that’s really good. How do you know how to do that? And I went, oh, [00:08:00] in D.T. we do the stuff like that, we would work, but they’ve got like a red thing at the bottom that you kick in case [00:08:05] your tyre gets caught in it and you go into it. And he laughed. And then from there, um, I’ve just [00:08:10] been doing an apprenticeship since then, but the reason why I mention that is because that put [00:08:15] me on a different trajectory in life in general. Now I own the laboratory. I was once [00:08:20] an apprentice. Same lab? Yeah, that same lab.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. That’s.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. That’s permanent.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Kash Qureshi: So [00:08:25] if it and literally that event of, um, the, the knife incident literally [00:08:30] only happened about two months before I was started at that place. So it was very [00:08:35] close to one another and it was just like, okay, if if I didn’t do that, [00:08:40] I mean, yeah, I could have ended up anywhere. It could have been worse. I couldn’t [00:08:45] not be here today in a podcast interview, but I’m glad I used my [00:08:50] senses and I stuck to it and done the apprenticeship.

Payman Langroudi: But that life. I mean, did you? What [00:08:55] was it? What was it that you were involved in?

Kash Qureshi: I wasn’t involved with the street [00:09:00] dudes. There was a lot of street dudes out there then. There still is to this day. Some of the kids nowadays, they’re [00:09:05] crazy. They’re so crazy. Some of these.

Payman Langroudi: Kids.

Kash Qureshi: Knife.

Payman Langroudi: Crime thing is mad.

Kash Qureshi: The knife crime, [00:09:10] gun crime, the drug. It’s just there used to be a thing about drugs outside [00:09:15] the laboratory where, um. They used to stash drugs inside of the wheel arch of my car. Seriously? [00:09:20] And the police? Um, they would always knock on the door and say, um, can we [00:09:25] just search your car underneath? Because there used to be an alleyway there, and they used to always do it. [00:09:30] And it’s very easy to get into that lifestyle. You don’t need to actually be in it. You can be just [00:09:35] associated. I mean, one of my friends were into that sort of thing. That’s [00:09:40] good to good on them. I don’t know what they’re doing now. We were young at the time. I mean, the one the one [00:09:45] thing I do remember is I was in this house once with my friends and [00:09:50] what they call now, they call it a I think they call it like a trap house. That’s what they call it now. I didn’t know what it was back [00:09:55] then. No, we didn’t have a name for it. But I remember the floors. There wasn’t like nice floorboards. It was like that wooden floor, [00:10:00] you know, where. There’s nothing on there.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: And all I remember just sitting there thinking. If the police [00:10:05] come through right now, what am I going to tell my mom? That was the only thing that was going through [00:10:10] my mind. I was thinking, oh, man, I’m going to be an accessory to whatever’s going on here, you know? So I ducked [00:10:15] out of there so quick because I thought, I don’t want to be here. I don’t want I don’t want this lifestyle. And I’m glad [00:10:20] I don’t didn’t go through with it. But you don’t need to be involved in it. You see, you just get drawn [00:10:25] into it. If your friends are there, you’re not going to go, oh, you know what? Uh, it’s more peer pressure, [00:10:30] I think.

Payman Langroudi: And that and that inflection point of that incident that made you decide [00:10:35] to follow that career when you finally got there, were you like, super [00:10:40] disciplined and like, did you feel like it was an opportunity that. [00:10:45] Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: Because I just thought it was an opportunity. My grades wasn’t 100%. [00:10:50] Um, so I wasn’t the smartest of people out there. Um, I was very good with my [00:10:55] hands. Um, very good at art, design, technology and all of them sort of things. So I had good coordination [00:11:00] skills, and it just clicked. And I thought, you know what? This is going to be [00:11:05] the thing to do. And I ended up just just going at it full speed and, um, [00:11:10] yeah, I’m glad I did, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: So from that point of like in the plaster room [00:11:15] to becoming a fully fledged technician, how many years, how many courses? [00:11:20] What are we talking.

Kash Qureshi: We there was a BTec course at the time. Um, [00:11:25] so you’d done that for about a year, I think. And then you went on to a foundation degree. And then [00:11:30] from there I’d done the external courses to do a CBT course. So [00:11:35] I think the first part of it was a four year. Um, so you do.

Payman Langroudi: Part [00:11:40] time.

Kash Qureshi: Part time. So one day released to college, four days in the lab. I think that’s the best way of [00:11:45] doing it, to be honest with.

Payman Langroudi: You, for it somehow.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, because you learn so much more in a lab than you do in a [00:11:50] in an ideal environment with ideal cases and stuff like that. You learn life experience. [00:11:55] Yeah. And I think they’ve changed things now. The new apprenticeships now seem to be more streamlined, [00:12:00] like, um, there’s a new place that’s just opened up in called Southbank [00:12:05] Colleges. Um, they’re running a technicians course. They’ve got a full time one and the part time one. [00:12:10] I’m a big favour of the part time one because it’s aimed for school leavers exactly like myself. [00:12:15] You know, the you know, you don’t want to do the academia side of things, but you’re good at your [00:12:20] hands and you’ve got value. You can bring value. And that’s what I think that is going [00:12:25] to be the more successful courses with the younger generation.

Payman Langroudi: And how long is it before you start kind [00:12:30] of subspecializing like that first course. Does that, does everyone do that first [00:12:35] course.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, because you need to get your feet wet. You need to know what you’re going to be doing. That. [00:12:40] And a lot of these, when you go into the course, you they train you on everything. But the main [00:12:45] thing that I don’t know why it was silly. They used to train you on orthodontics more than anything else. We used to do like 13 [00:12:50] orthodontic appliances I don’t even remember the name of. I don’t even touch the wire since I don’t even want [00:12:55] to touch removable appliance. Yeah, the orthodontic stuff. I leave it to the people that want to [00:13:00] do it. I just find it very tedious to bend wires. I still do, but they teach you sections [00:13:05] of each thing. It’s probably gone different now because of the digital aspect, which I think it should be [00:13:10] a core curriculum, because that’s going to outweigh anything we were doing, like the lost wax process. [00:13:15] So I think that that’s definitely going to be the way forward. And then once you do [00:13:20] your bits and pieces, I found that I started off in Crown and Bridge. I first started [00:13:25] off in the plaster room. Uh, apparently I showed good street smarts. There’s a reason for [00:13:30] that. Yeah. So I was very good at them sort of things and making decisions quick and thinking [00:13:35] with common sense. So I was very good at them sort of things. And then I started running that whole department down there. [00:13:40]

Payman Langroudi: And bridge department.

Kash Qureshi: The whole class.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, the whole classroom.

Kash Qureshi: Taking training [00:13:45] new people, moving people here, they’re just running. I was like 17 at the time, so I was well in [00:13:50] my element. Then I got moved upstairs into the sort of Canning Bridge. I didn’t like it too much. [00:13:55] It wasn’t my thing. Uh, I was more quick paced, moving on things. And [00:14:00] then, um, I just approached my boss at the time and said, look, I’d rather do prosthetics, [00:14:05] try me out on prosthetics because there was a stage where the colleges, everyone would [00:14:10] tell you, if you want to be a technician, you want to be a crown and bridge technician. They used to always tell you [00:14:15] that even if you didn’t want to do it, they’ll go, you know what? You should be a ceramist. And boy, were they wrong. [00:14:20] That’s been the first specialised field that’s literally been outsourced [00:14:25] to CAD Cam, because there was a stage where they thought CAD cam will never it [00:14:30] won’t. I don’t get me wrong, it won’t replace technicians. It will make you more [00:14:35] productive, but it comes at a cost. You’re not going to sit there and [00:14:40] pay 70 K to a ceramist when you can get a machine to mill it out, and you can get someone [00:14:45] to stain and glaze it. It doesn’t make business sense. You’ve got to make it work somehow. And [00:14:50] at the moment, digital dentures is becoming a thing. Um, I’ve got a good team of technicians [00:14:55] now. Um, they are worried about digital dentures taking over. I [00:15:00] said, well, look, you’ve got nothing to be worried about. You’ve just got to apply your skills differently. You’ve got to apply what [00:15:05] you’re learning at the bench. You still got to know how to do setting up of teeth, because when you’re on the computer, [00:15:10] you’re going to need to know how to position teeth and so forth. So it’s just a case of transferring, [00:15:15] and I suppose it’s the employer that pushes the people in the direction that [00:15:20] you can foresee them going as well, because sometimes people just need that little [00:15:25] nudge in the right direction. Lead them up that path.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s not only dental technicians, [00:15:30] right? It’s every single field now is going to change with [00:15:35] AI and all that. And I saw a thing. It was, you know, autonomous cars in [00:15:40] some city in Phoenix. They’ve got taxis. No driver, just the car.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, I see that.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:15:45] car just drives around by itself. Um, but in that situation, there’s one driver [00:15:50] driving 30 cars because the car’s basically doing its own thing until [00:15:55] it hits the situation where it doesn’t know what to do. And then it calls up the driver, and then the driver takes over. And [00:16:00] I think that’s going to be the way that a lot of different industries end up. It could be [00:16:05] one technician doing ten technicians job that, you know, today’s technicians [00:16:10] jobs. It could even be one dentist doing ten dentist jobs. You know, we think [00:16:15] we think that, you know, in those professions where it’s face to face, that’s the last one that’s going to go. [00:16:20] But, um, you know, I if I’m, if I’m buying something off Amazon, [00:16:25] I don’t want to talk to a human. You know, I don’t I.

Kash Qureshi: Don’t.

Payman Langroudi: I prefer. [00:16:30]

Kash Qureshi: To talk to you when, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, I want to go on Amazon. Hit the thing.

Kash Qureshi: Have you have you rang up someone like a [00:16:35] bank or someone and they got the AI versions on there? Yeah, it is weird.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it won’t be for long.

Kash Qureshi: It’s [00:16:40] strange. And then they do the breathing thing as well. It makes it even worse because it’s like you’re trying [00:16:45] to be human and you can tell you’re not human.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So then you became [00:16:50] a clinical dental technician and set up a practice.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, well, a denture clinic. [00:16:55] Just in case CQC are watching. It’s a denture clinic.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about that. Because [00:17:00] dentures are a funny thing. I worked with a guy on Harley Street who was a denture specialist, [00:17:05] if you like. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And the emotions, the the [00:17:10] sort of psychological aspect to making a great just stick to forefoot [00:17:15] for now to making a great full fall. We weren’t taught that in dental [00:17:20] school. You know, in dental school, we were taught the basics of how to make the thing. Yeah, we certainly [00:17:25] weren’t taught positioning of teeth. You know, the stuff that you guys [00:17:30] are good at. But what this guy used to do, and it used to. I remember seeing the emotion on [00:17:35] the patients faces was he’d asked for photos from their youth, and [00:17:40] they’d bring in pictures of themselves when they were 20 or 30, when they had teeth. Yeah. And then he’d [00:17:45] recreate the way that their teeth used to look when in their 20s. And [00:17:50] when he’d put them in, suddenly there’d be floods of tears and and and and so forth. And [00:17:55] it’s both the positive side of that sort of emotional connection. And as we know, [00:18:00] the negative aspects of it, there are some people who I’m sure come to you with a bag [00:18:05] of dentures, having seen 30 dentists and think you’re going to answer all their problems and, [00:18:10] and, you know, they’ve given a name to their pain and, and no, no set of dentures is going [00:18:15] to fix that. Talk talk me around the clinical aspects that you, you are [00:18:20] now super specialised in.

Kash Qureshi: I think the biggest thing I can say [00:18:25] is patient expectations and communication with patients. Because when [00:18:30] I get patients come into my clinic, they’ve gone done the rounds through all of [00:18:35] the dentists out there. So they’ve come to you and they know that they’ve got a problem. And [00:18:40] if it’s come to a CDC, you know that they’ve got low ridges. [00:18:45] Their old denture is very worn out. They’re dead. So it’s a long [00:18:50] winded process. That’s why the digital stuff can kick in. In actually does help. [00:18:55] Um, I’m training a lot of dentists on how to do digital dentures. Um, [00:19:00] and we’ve been getting some good successful results with it. But with the patients [00:19:05] as such, you just have to manage the expectations from the outset. Tell [00:19:10] them straight off the cuff that you’ve got a very. I mean, you do all of this in the treatment planning [00:19:15] stages and the examinations. And I will tell a patient straight away that [00:19:20] you’re probably going to need fixodent if needed. Um, if fixodent are watching wherever [00:19:25] the camera is, hit me up. I still want to do that advert with you guys. I’ve been [00:19:30] messaging them, so they messaged back. So I don’t know who’s running your social media, but you need to sort it out. Serious. [00:19:35] But, um, I’ve always recommend fixing them. Um, even if the dentures they’ve got healthy Ridge. I [00:19:40] would always recommend it.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. Because you need to lower that expectation from the outset because [00:19:45] they’re coming to you thinking they’re gonna you’re gonna because they know that you special not special. You’re not allowed to [00:19:50] say special. Yeah. Gdc because they know you’re an expert in dentures. They [00:19:55] will think that you’re going to solve all their issues. I’ve had patients, um, because I look quite [00:20:00] young at the time. Um, when I first started, I was like, when I qualified, I was 23 years old. As I said, [00:20:05] I was the youngest in the country, and I must have looked very young to patients because they would, you know, you’re [00:20:10] getting old elderly patients in the 60s, 70s. So they’re seeing someone young. They’re like, well, what do [00:20:15] you know? And I said, well, look, I’m dealing with about 800 to 900 denture cases a week at the lab. Oh, [00:20:20] no. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, in the lab.

Kash Qureshi: In the lab? Yeah. Like just in the denture department. I’m overseeing [00:20:25] 800 to 900 cases Day in, day out. Every week without fail. [00:20:30] It’s me. I can tell you now if it’s going to work or not. So they appreciate [00:20:35] that because experience takes over. How many years you’ve done it? [00:20:40] And I found with a lot of technicians that I’m getting coming through now, I don’t really look at [00:20:45] how many years they’ve been doing it. I’ve been looking more at what they actually their experience and what they [00:20:50] do. I mean, there’s no point of if someone if someone turns around to me and requests a pay [00:20:55] rise based on the long how long they’ve been at the place. Uh, it’s about time [00:21:00] that I’ll be thinking to myself. I need to get them the hell out of here. If you’ve had to come to me and you’re [00:21:05] telling me that the only thing you can think of is because I’ve been here for so long now. I’ve got no space for [00:21:10] furniture. I’ve. You know, we’ve got no space. You need to be bringing some sort of value [00:21:15] to the bottom line. And that’s where experience comes in. And if there are any technicians [00:21:20] out there, do not approach your employer with that saying that, oh, I’ve been doing this for X [00:21:25] amount of years. Approach them differently. Have you got clients like I’ve spoken [00:21:30] to some technicians that have their own clients. You go to an employer or a new employer and say, look, I’ve got [00:21:35] 5 or 6 dentists on my team. You know, they’re people.

Payman Langroudi: Who trust me.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. I [00:21:40] guarantee you that that employer will take you on straight away. But if you go there and say, yeah, I’ve been doing this for [00:21:45] 20 years, they’d be like, well, what have you been doing for 20 years? You know, have you been just sweeping the corner? You know, [00:21:50] you’ve been just been doing bites because you get found out. It’s where I [00:21:55] did remember reading a guy called Jim Glidewell. He owns a big laboratory in America. [00:22:00] 5000 laboratories. Yeah. Huge guy, very successful. Um, Stephanie [00:22:05] Goddard now is the CEO of it, very successful laboratory. And he said [00:22:10] that most technicians will get called out on their cases [00:22:15] every case they do. So that’s why you’ve always got to do the best case, because you send a job to [00:22:20] a dentist and it’s a piece of chalk, as he said. He’s that dentist is going to turn around to you and say [00:22:25] that lab work’s not good. So you’re always going to get constant feedback. Whereas as a dentist, [00:22:30] you very rarely get feedback. There’s no one there to govern how your clinical work is. [00:22:35] Whereas now I’m finding a lot of dentists are now asking us, give us [00:22:40] feedback. And I do I give them feedback. If I think an impression is good, I’ll ring them up and go, yeah, you know [00:22:45] that impression you sent was, you know, it was hot, you know. And if it’s rubbish, I would be very [00:22:50] careful in my work and say, you know. Yeah, I think it’s the impression is distorted. It [00:22:55] just distorted itself somehow. But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I want to go into [00:23:00] a couple of things there. Number one, this thing you’re saying about feedback, [00:23:05] how how important is it to you? How nice is it when a dentist [00:23:10] contacts you and says, that was really nice lab work. Like, I’d imagine that that [00:23:15] that’s almost like when a patient says thank you to dentist. It’s like. And they [00:23:20] really mean it. It’s actually the bit of the job that makes the whole thing worthwhile. And [00:23:25] often dentists don’t feed back that good news to their [00:23:30] technicians. They feed back bad news, but good news. Tell [00:23:35] me about that. Is that is that something that changes your day, like when you get a thank you [00:23:40] from a dentist?

Kash Qureshi: It does. It does change every. I think it changes everyone’s morale. It’s more for the team. [00:23:45] Um, you know, we got about 18 people at the lab. So to get feedback because I, [00:23:50] I don’t I don’t see half my team half the time because, you know, it’s like running a business. You’re [00:23:55] everywhere. You’re everywhere but nowhere sort of thing half the time. So it’s good to get feedback. [00:24:00] You can put it in the group saying, this dentist just sent this. Well done. So and so. It’s good [00:24:05] to. But then I also think at the same time, if something has gone wrong feedback, [00:24:10] you need to be able to give.

Payman Langroudi: That feedback.

Kash Qureshi: Because that’s how we learn. And it’s [00:24:15] like I’m always in the middle between a dentist [00:24:20] and then an annoyed staff member, because when you got that sort of situation going, you [00:24:25] need to find a medium ground in between. So I always say to the guys, focus on the [00:24:30] solution, not the problem. Because when you focus on the problem, you’re still going to be fighting. The technician will [00:24:35] say, oh, it’s bad impressions. The dentist will say it’s down to the lab and how they’re making it. [00:24:40] Okay, that’s the problem you’re focusing on. Let’s focus on the solution. The solution would be [00:24:45] okay. It’s going to come at a cost to us. Just making you aware to the dentist. It’s going to [00:24:50] come at a cost. But if you can get this right and then the next few cases I can make back, I [00:24:55] will make it back on that. It’s a hustler’s mentality that I will make it back on the next one. [00:25:00] So that is what I.

Payman Langroudi: Call nightmare, insomuch as I don’t know [00:25:05] for someone else what it would be like. But if I got two pieces of lab lab work in [00:25:10] a row back that for whatever reason, I’m blaming the lab. I’m now looking for a new [00:25:15] lab, isn’t it? And you could. You could have given me 100 great bits of lab work, [00:25:20] but if I get two in a row, I’ll worry as a dentist. And that’s [00:25:25] hard, man. That’s hard. You’re right. Dentists don’t have so much critique of the work they [00:25:30] do as as you guys have. The other thing I’m interested in is what was the transition [00:25:35] like from employee to boss? Like, did you find that easy or did you find that hard? [00:25:40]

Kash Qureshi: Uh, well.

Payman Langroudi: It seems like you you look comfortable in the boss’s position, [00:25:45] but it’s not an easy transition. I mean, yeah, lots of associates who become principals and [00:25:50] have real issues with that. What kind of things did you have to sort of go through?

Kash Qureshi: Well, I think that [00:25:55] the answer, the first one about the, um, the dentist with, um, you know, after two jobs [00:26:00] I’ve had, I’ve had dentists stop sending me work because they’re trying the [00:26:05] wax trying wasn’t right. And it could be something as simple as just moving [00:26:10] a lateral. And I’ve had people stop sending work because of it and all that does. There’s two [00:26:15] ways of looking at it. You can look at the way that that dentist is being pedantic. Or you can look at it the way that that [00:26:20] Dennis is being pedantic for a reason. Let’s up our game. And I like the second version, the latter [00:26:25] of it. And I would always say to people, come on, we need to up our game. Let’s [00:26:30] work to the standard that I’ve got one. Um, I don’t want to say names or anything like that, but one dentist, he sends me [00:26:35] photos of his impressions. He said to me, oh, can you extend the trace and make it like this? He constantly [00:26:40] sends me feedback on work and stuff and his work is coming out hot. I keep using [00:26:45] the word hot because I like to use the other word, but I’m just being PC about it and it’s coming out really good. [00:26:50] So I would suggest that any dentist out there, if you have an issue, [00:26:55] when I get dentists that ring up and dental practices. Now, this is something that not a lot of lab [00:27:00] owners do, but they should.

Kash Qureshi: A lot of people ring up and go, you know what? Um, [00:27:05] we’re looking for a new lab. Um, the first question to ask is what happened to the last one? [00:27:10] For some reason, my dentists don’t want to tell you what the name is of the labs. I’m not really interested, to be honest with [00:27:15] you. They don’t want to mention the names of the labs. I don’t have no idea why. Uh, maybe there’s [00:27:20] something out there that they don’t want to disclose who they’re using. I don’t really know, but my main thing is, hey, can [00:27:25] you resolve the issues with the lab you’re using? If it’s if it’s gone past that point where you can’t [00:27:30] resolve it and you can’t even have a conversation, most dentists don’t even know what the technician [00:27:35] looks like. They don’t know what the lab owner looks like. I remember when I used to rock up at practices and they used to go, [00:27:40] it’s very nice to actually see the lab owner. And I’m thinking, well, don’t everybody do this. You [00:27:45] know what I mean? I feel like everybody comes and sees people and stuff. It’s human nature, but a lot, [00:27:50] a lot of them do that. Whereas I’ve always liked to communicate with dentists, um, I like [00:27:55] to approach them. I like to go with them on cases because I’m a CDC now. I know what these guys go through [00:28:00] in the clinical aspect. So yeah, there is that. And what was this.

Payman Langroudi: As a boss?

Kash Qureshi: Oh, [00:28:05] as a boss? Yeah. I mean, I was a manager first, so I was running a department, [00:28:10] um, the prosthetics department because I ended up taking over that. So I got an understanding.

Payman Langroudi: Understanding [00:28:15] of people management.

Kash Qureshi: That’s the the main key thing. If anybody asks me what [00:28:20] is the main key skill of owning a business and running a business is [00:28:25] leadership. Leadership has a lot of subcategories. But you just got to be a good leader. You’ve [00:28:30] got to know how to communicate to people. You’ve got to know how to talk to people. The [00:28:35] tone of your voice, the message you want to convey. Um, and that [00:28:40] seems to help quite good when even just in general, just talking to random general [00:28:45] people like randos on the street, you know, you’ve just got to be able to just talk, um, which [00:28:50] is worrying because I see the younger generation having an issue with communication and [00:28:55] talking. Um, they’re much more comfortable with talking via texts and emails [00:29:00] and so forth. Yeah. So I think they’ll snap out of it. I hope so, they’ll [00:29:05] snap out of it. But, um, I’d say that that is probably the main key things is, [00:29:10] um, transitioning from an employee to a boss was difficult because I was young. Um, my [00:29:15] my trajectory was from 16. Apprentice qualified [00:29:20] at, like, eight and 19. Qualified at 19. Um, become a department [00:29:25] manager at prosthetics at 2021. And then done [00:29:30] the course. Qualified as a CBT 23 um, 25. I opened [00:29:35] up a clinic. 26 I’d done an MBA on the laboratory. So you’ve got to think from 16 [00:29:40] to 26. In ten years, I had a lot of exposure to how [00:29:45] can I say to, you know, even younger than that, I’ve had a lot of exposure to sort of street [00:29:50] life, um, finance, um, money people. [00:29:55] Hr and I gathered a lot of experience up until the point [00:30:00] of 26 where I was. I’m the owner now sort of thing.

Payman Langroudi: Was it for sale?

Kash Qureshi: No, [00:30:05] it was because he was retiring the the old boss, John Gerrard, and, um, he [00:30:10] was looking to retire. He obviously saw me pushing through on the clinic and seeing that, [00:30:15] you know, I was at 16 year old and I’ve just shot past everyone, even people that have been there for [00:30:20] 1020. I’ve just shot past everyone. So he obviously saw something there thinking, right, okay, well this [00:30:25] is my lifestyle, retirement, you know, which, you know, it was when [00:30:30] I took over, I believe there was, um, seven people and three of them [00:30:35] left straight away when I took over. Really? Yeah. Dropped me right in it. Um, two of them done [00:30:40] it, so one of them done it good way. He told me that he was going to do it. One [00:30:45] of them done it quite vindictively. Uh, another one had it in the pipelines for a long time [00:30:50] that he was going to do it, but they all just seemed to do it at the same time. Well, the two people [00:30:55] that done it and open up in competition with me is going around to clients and stuff like that. It [00:31:00] was sad to hear because I don’t really like hearing about labs closing down, but they [00:31:05] had to close it down. I assumed that whatever they were doing to me, they’d done to each other [00:31:10] because a cheater doesn’t change his spots at the end of the day.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Also, [00:31:15] you know, new businesses go bust all the time. Yeah, you’ve got to bear that in mind. It’s [00:31:20] you’re much more likely to go bust than to survive the first three, five years. [00:31:25] Now, you bought an established business, and this guy obviously was a good guy. The guy you bought it from, the [00:31:30] fact that he even allowed you to go through the business as quickly as [00:31:35] you did. Yeah. I mean, all right, you were committed. Yeah, but you’ll find [00:31:40] a bunch of people that where the business is not a meritocracy, literally is about how long you’ve been there. [00:31:45]

Kash Qureshi: It’s mad, though, right?

Payman Langroudi: But it happens. By the way, I’ve been guilty of it myself. Yeah, I [00:31:50] have been guilty of that. Something I’ve learned over the years.

Kash Qureshi: I thought in prison was at the back. There was. [00:31:55] I didn’t want the war was going on in this place.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:32:00] but my point is, it was a good business that you bought in the first place. Now, do [00:32:05] you want to tell me? You don’t have to. How much did you pay for it?

Kash Qureshi: I can’t really [00:32:10] say. I can’t really say.

Payman Langroudi: You have savings?

Kash Qureshi: No.

Payman Langroudi: So how did you raise money?

Kash Qureshi: I [00:32:15] didn’t circle.

Payman Langroudi: Which is what? Explain.

Kash Qureshi: That funding circle at the time was a crowd [00:32:20] crowdfunding platform. Platform at the time. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:32:25] what, you made a document or a video or something?

Kash Qureshi: No, I just applied online. I think I had a business plan [00:32:30] at the time, and, um, it was just a case of applying, and then, [00:32:35] uh, we worked out an acquisition and then b-01, um, because I was an established manager [00:32:40] there, it was easier for me to do a transition and get someone else coming in. A lot of the clients knew who [00:32:45] I was already.

Payman Langroudi: Did you put zero in yourself or did you put some savings in yourself?

Kash Qureshi: I [00:32:50] put zero.

Payman Langroudi: Oh that’s lovely.

Kash Qureshi: Put zero. That’s the best type of acquisition.

Payman Langroudi: 100% funded by [00:32:55] that. How amazing.

Kash Qureshi: But I spread it over five years. Um, the.

Payman Langroudi: Funding. [00:33:00]

Kash Qureshi: The, um, the payments to, um.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, okay.

Kash Qureshi: To John, it was a deal was over five years. [00:33:05]

Payman Langroudi: So every deal you made with John.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. So every quarter I had to make a payment to him to get the, [00:33:10] you know, to pay off the shares and eventually gradually take over the ownership [00:33:15] of the shares, because that’s how you gradually do these things.

Payman Langroudi: 100% yourself. You didn’t have a partner or.

Kash Qureshi: Didn’t. [00:33:20]

Payman Langroudi: Have a partner, and you own 100% of the business now. Yeah. John doesn’t John doesn’t own any of it.

Kash Qureshi: No, [00:33:25] no, he, um. He does.

Payman Langroudi: Did he continue? Did he continue for a while?

Kash Qureshi: He still does.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, he still [00:33:30] does.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, he still does. I don’t think I would be able to stop him from it. It’s. It’s [00:33:35] in his nature. You know, he’s been he was doing it from you know, he’s been doing it for 40, 50 years. [00:33:40] So it’s what he knows. And he does it from home. And he’s, he’s he converted his shed [00:33:45] into like a lab workshop. Yeah. So he’s done that. But [00:33:50] no from from that. Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: How did you go about taking it? I mean, how many years did it take [00:33:55] to go from seven people to 18? And, you know, you’ve grown that business. [00:34:00] So what what was your strategy to grow it, find new customers, I guess.

Kash Qureshi: Well, [00:34:05] it was that I used to approach a lot of, um, the old customers that we lost. Um, the [00:34:10] people leave and come and go for different, various reasons. But, um, I think the, the main [00:34:15] key thing was, was that I wanted to I don’t know why I was stupid now that [00:34:20] I think of it, because now I know a lot more about acquisitions and stuff. But my main aim was to buy [00:34:25] the business quicker than five years, which I’d done in two years. So literally [00:34:30] done it. Two years where it should have been five. And um, now that I think about it, [00:34:35] I could feel, oh man, I could have done a lot more with that money. I could have invested into various bits. But yeah, it’s all water [00:34:40] under a bridge now. But the the growth of the company, I [00:34:45] think it was more down to it was just building more people, just getting [00:34:50] more clients in.

Payman Langroudi: How they.

Kash Qureshi: I was at the time, it was cold [00:34:55] calling, knocking on doors, walking into practices. I remember once I had a client, one client [00:35:00] in Surrey, and I was in the area and I thought, you know what? I don’t know this. [00:35:05] I don’t know these ends. I don’t I’ve never been here before. You know what? I’m going to go to every practice that [00:35:10] I can find. So I just went to every single practice in Surrey. I knocked on the doors, introduced myself. [00:35:15] Yeah. And that seemed to work because I was I was comfortable with doing that. But, [00:35:20] I mean, I could still do it now. To this day, I’ve done it where I’ve just walked into practices and gone, you know. Hi. [00:35:25] You know, my name’s estimate.

Payman Langroudi: How many practices did you either call or just walk into? [00:35:30] Like, are we talking hundreds?

Kash Qureshi: No, I walk in general. All in all, you probably looking at about 50. [00:35:35] I wouldn’t say hundreds. I didn’t have that much time to do it. Plus, um, I started to do [00:35:40] deliveries because I was having access to practices where I didn’t have access to [00:35:45] it, like eg walking into a practice and delivering the work, asking them how’s the work going?

Payman Langroudi: Nice. [00:35:50]

Kash Qureshi: It made sense for me to do that at the beginning. Now it’s not valuable for me to do that [00:35:55] now. I’ve got about three, three, yeah, three drivers now that I do it. So [00:36:00] yeah. Three.

Payman Langroudi: Have you heard the story that the guy who owns Deliveroo [00:36:05] he used. He was still delivering 111 afternoon [00:36:10] a week. Really? Like up to two years ago. Like. And part [00:36:15] of it was he sees one of his customers is the delivery driver. Yeah, yeah. And [00:36:20] so he he wants to see what the delivery driver’s life is like. You know, talk to the other delivery [00:36:25] drivers, talk to the restaurant and find out. It makes sense, man. It does make sense. So. All right. [00:36:30] So you you grew it. Um. Were they growing pains as well? There [00:36:35] always is.

Kash Qureshi: There, there is there. I think the main thing is, is keeping an eye on quality of the work [00:36:40] that’s being produced, because you can get to a point where you grow so quickly and so rapidly, [00:36:45] um, that it just spirals out of control. I mean, uh, we [00:36:50] on average get about 100 to 200 cases coming in a day, and it [00:36:55] can get at times. Um, you know, you’ve got to keep an eye on the quality of stuff. And luckily, [00:37:00] now we’ve developed such a good system where we’ve got enough, um, managers and QC [00:37:05] guys now involved that if something does slip up, it has to [00:37:10] it goes through a rigorous checks now, whereas before and it was mainly me doing [00:37:15] a lot of the checks and your eyes end up just playing games on you after a while. That was [00:37:20] the hardest thing, keeping an eye on, uh, costs and keeping an eye on the quality [00:37:25] and just customer relationships. They were the three hardest things, and they [00:37:30] take up your time. And it’s even worse if you’re an operator of the business as well, because you’re stuck at the bench, [00:37:35] you know you can’t do much managing when your head’s stuck on the on the bench and you can’t see what’s going on around.

Payman Langroudi: You, you’re [00:37:40] still doing that.

Kash Qureshi: You, um, I’m doing bits and pieces of it now, but I’m starting to slowly edge off of it. Um, [00:37:45] we’ve got more and more people doing a lot of, um, the more tasks now, and I just oversee a lot [00:37:50] of things now. Um, I prefer it that way. Uh, one one thing it just reminded me of, you know, you was talking [00:37:55] about the AI, um, taking over a lot of, uh, of dentistry. Um, [00:38:00] that analogy of the man and the dog. Do you remember that analogy?

Payman Langroudi: Go on.

Kash Qureshi: That [00:38:05] in the future, in most factories, there’s going to be a lot of machines [00:38:10] and just one man and one dog? That’s going to be running a whole factory. [00:38:15] So the man’s going to be operating the machines. Oh, no. The AI is [00:38:20] going to be running all of the machines, and the dog is there to stop the man from interfering.

Payman Langroudi: They [00:38:25] call them. They call them dark factories, right? In [00:38:30] China, they have these 24 hour a day, like running continuously [00:38:35] without any humans. Right. And it’s.

Kash Qureshi: Mad.

Payman Langroudi: And I remember once we were making this one particular [00:38:40] product and we wanted to find a manufacturer for it. Yeah, yeah. And we were in America [00:38:45] and I went to one place and there was like lines and lines of people just [00:38:50] like making it by hand. And then I went to this other place on the border with [00:38:55] Mexico, and it was gigantic. It was this huge, huge lab kind [00:39:00] of thing. And the guy who came to open the door of the thing, and because we were next to Mexico, I thought it was just going [00:39:05] to be thousands of Mexicans sitting there, and there was no humans at all. There was just there was a couple [00:39:10] of guys with clipboards and just machines doing the whole thing. Um, [00:39:15] that.

Kash Qureshi: Is going to be a process. I think.

Payman Langroudi: Byd’s got a factory. You know, the car. The Chinese car.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, [00:39:20] yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Bigger than San Francisco. Oh, wow. The factory. I can [00:39:25] imagine.

Kash Qureshi: I can imagine that. That’s actually pretty. That’s pretty tidy. That.

Payman Langroudi: So now [00:39:30] let’s move on to clinical bits. Where what kind [00:39:35] of tips can you give us on? Let’s start with dentures. Okay. What was an aha [00:39:40] moment for you regarding dentures?

Kash Qureshi: Every clinical dental technician will [00:39:45] tell you this one thing. And if they don’t tell you it, change your life. Yeah. If they don’t [00:39:50] tell you this, the first thing you realise as a clinical dental technician is. You know what? [00:39:55] Shit. I’ve been making these special trays overextended for too long.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Kash Qureshi: First thing you learn [00:40:00] is that the special trays that we used to make, that we thought we were going to the periphery, we were just overextending [00:40:05] the hell out of them. And now everyone in my special trays is 2 to 3mm [00:40:10] away from the periphery. Reason being is when you do your impressions. [00:40:15] Now, Rupert. Rupert Monkhouse will love me for this. Um, so if you shout out to Rupert, if you are watching.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:40:20] build your impression from the Rupert Rupert vernacular, right?

Kash Qureshi: I always remember that [00:40:25] photo that he took at bounce. You know, the thing. And he goes, does anybody know who took this impression straight away? Everyone. [00:40:30] Rupert. You just knew it was him who took that. But the main thing is, if [00:40:35] you decrease it by 2 to 3mm, you allow for space for the alginate to get into the three [00:40:40] dimensional space between the cheek and the peripheral area. So it allows you to build a mould. [00:40:45] If you’ve got a special tray, in a way it’s just going to move, dislodge anything. You’ve got no space. So that [00:40:50] was the main clinical tip.

Payman Langroudi: I haven’t done a full full for now.

Kash Qureshi: Really you should do one.

Payman Langroudi: About 1520. [00:40:55] I don’t know how long, but. Is green stick still a thing?

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, still being used. [00:41:00] And much more now because of. Um, a lot of the dentists like Mike. Um, he [00:41:05] teaches a lot of people how to use it. Green stick. It’s still. I would still say it’s a good product.

Payman Langroudi: I used to love [00:41:10] it, I love it.

Kash Qureshi: It smells, though, isn’t it? It’s got it’s got that smell, man. It’s got that. You smell [00:41:15] it and you’re like, yeah. I mean, we used to use shellac. The shellac base. I stopped using it because [00:41:20] it’s I don’t know what opium smells like, but I can imagine it being shellac. It’s just giving me a headache [00:41:25] every time I. Because you have to put it through a Bunsen. Yeah. And the smell of it is. Oh, I [00:41:30] just like.

Payman Langroudi: I did a prosthetics job. My first job I did was in a hospital, and [00:41:35] the guy used to. For free and saddles.

Kash Qureshi: Oh, yeah? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Stick the whole saddle. Right. [00:41:40] Um, not just the periphery. Yeah, yeah, it was. It was a good, good technique. It really [00:41:45] was. There’s something about making it so. Okay, so your first point was that over [00:41:50] extended special trays.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Anything else? How about the tooth setup to [00:41:55] make it aesthetic, but not like, you know, like denture classic [00:42:00] four four setups that all just the same, right? Yeah. So do you put characterisation in. Do you [00:42:05] involve the patient a lot or not?

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, absolutely. Um, we got the Swiss [00:42:10] system that I used and that trains you in utilising the patient’s [00:42:15] facial features, like the centre line, nose, uh, canine line, as I say, but nose [00:42:20] is different in various patients. Like mine would be bigger. So everyone is different. And, [00:42:25] um, you utilise stuff like the eyes, the age of the patient and stuff like that. So. [00:42:30] Yeah. So imagine a bike lock. You got them lines. Yeah. You got your box, your perimeter you’re working with. Yeah. [00:42:35] Um, you got a thing called a masculine setup. So the teeth are position quite [00:42:40] square like, so very much like the central central [00:42:45] lateral. And it goes in back in steps like that. So when the lights hit it, it hits it in various [00:42:50] patterns and it shows up. For some reason you position that five millimetres [00:42:55] away from the incisive papilla. Don’t know why, but they just tell you to do that. For some reason. [00:43:00] I mean, when I teach apprentices, this, um, the female version is actually seven millimetres in [00:43:05] front. Oh, really? They usually ask me why? Because I say, oh, you know, you guys got big mouths, so [00:43:10] I don’t really. But in general terms, they are more [00:43:15] forward. I have no idea.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re picking different teeth for women than men.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. So you know, the canine [00:43:20] line. The centre line. Yeah. That creates your box. Yeah. So, you know, you don’t go.

Payman Langroudi: Deep [00:43:25] into that.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. If you get a mould and you put it in between it, you know it’s going to fit in that box. So you think right, I’ve done [00:43:30] it. You know I’ve nailed it straight away. But most dentists, especially [00:43:35] in NHS game they don’t have time to do these things. Um, so they’ve run the time [00:43:40] constraints and so forth. But you can do it. It’s quick, um, doing the bite registration in general, [00:43:45] getting the ovd rvd um, registering the bite bi facial features [00:43:50] takes about eight minutes in total. Man, that’s how long it took me. And [00:43:55] that’s what me being very pedantic with it. And I’m very pedantic in the clinic with it and [00:44:00] it takes eight minutes.

Payman Langroudi: So then at trying, yeah, classically, I don’t know. I’m [00:44:05] behind with all this, but classically a dentist will try in the denture and he’s really [00:44:10] looking more for the occlusion than how it looks. But when [00:44:15] I did that job in Harley Street, I wasn’t job. I was kind of helping out. Yeah, trying [00:44:20] was the biggest visit. Really? Yeah, that’s.

Kash Qureshi: My quickest one.

Payman Langroudi: Really? Really. What I’m saying is [00:44:25] at try and this guy was moving teeth, trying different looks and and so [00:44:30] on.

Kash Qureshi: What, the actual dentist was moving the teeth.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So to try and make it look [00:44:35] the way the patient wanted it to look.

Kash Qureshi: Right.

Payman Langroudi: Was, was, you know, he was spending hour [00:44:40] on trying. Oh wow. You know, like like removing everything and starting again sometimes. Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: I [00:44:45] hope he didn’t use his technician half of that.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, we do it himself. [00:44:50] Himself?

Kash Qureshi: Oh, he’s done his own lab work as well.

Payman Langroudi: No, he would do that. He would. He would remove the teeth that the technician had put. [00:44:55] Put his own.

Kash Qureshi: You know what.

Payman Langroudi: Twist on that? Yeah. I’m sure.

Kash Qureshi: Because, you know, when we [00:45:00] get the work back. Yeah, you can see that it’s been moved. Yeah. And it’s just you just got to neaten [00:45:05] it up. But. Yeah, I get that. Do you know something? That’s my quickest appointment is a drying stage. Because I’ve done the [00:45:10] bike stage and the impression stage all correctly with base plates. All of them stages are [00:45:15] done correctly in the right way. They are my quickest. And you know what? I’m not even there half the time for the drying. Um, I [00:45:20] do my checks. Um, aesthetics. Uh, function occlusion. [00:45:25] Um, just general retention, extension, stability, support.

Payman Langroudi: All the kinetics, I [00:45:30] guess.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. So I do phonetics as well, but I usually do that as I’m talking to them. So you [00:45:35] can use paying attention. Yeah. When you’re talking to them you can usually tell. Um, but then again this is what, [00:45:40] you know, at the patient management stage, your speech will be affected for the first 2 to [00:45:45] 3 weeks. Just repeat the numbers from 60 to 70 with the dentures in [00:45:50] and your tongue will retrain itself. Which is true. It does. So that ends up becoming the [00:45:55] my quickest appointment. I usually tell patients to bring a family member or someone in with them [00:46:00] on that appointment only because patients tend to ask you what your opinion is. [00:46:05] Um, I’m looking at it from a technical, clinical aspect. I don’t see your [00:46:10] vision. Bring someone in with you who sees you on a day to day basis. They will [00:46:15] tell you right then that don’t don’t look right. So I always do that. I leave them with a dimension.

Payman Langroudi: That [00:46:20] guy that that family member is the one that’s going to like make say that, say there was something wrong [00:46:25] with the way it was looking. It’s good to get that particular person. Exactly. Because they’re.

Kash Qureshi: Going to they’re going to be the first one [00:46:30] to say they look like horse.

Payman Langroudi: Teeth.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. You know, so if you bring that patient in, bring them in, [00:46:35] leave them with a mirror. Literally. I’ll leave them in there for five minutes. I tell them not to bite hard because that’s what patients [00:46:40] tend to do. They think they can chew rock now. So I tell them, don’t bite hard. Just [00:46:45] take it easy. Have a look. Any adjustments? You let me know at this stage because I can make adjustments. Anything [00:46:50] after that. I can’t do it. So yeah, that seems.

Payman Langroudi: And then the fit visit. [00:46:55]

Kash Qureshi: As quick as well.

Payman Langroudi: Because everything was right.

Kash Qureshi: Them stages are the most quickest [00:47:00] appointments for me. Um, my longest stages are the impression, the secondary impressions [00:47:05] in particular because I’m very, so pedantic with it. And if something just [00:47:10] ain’t right, I will redo it again. Um, I don’t care how it makes me look to the patient if it makes me look incompetent, [00:47:15] I would rather take that than doing it wrong. Doing it wrong.

Payman Langroudi: We used to have a professor [00:47:20] in Cardiff, a prosthetics professor, and, you know, they would get sent some really difficult [00:47:25] cases, right? And sometimes the patient would say on fit day, the [00:47:30] patient would say the dentures are too tight. Yeah. And he had this thing. He would turn around [00:47:35] to me and look at me and smile and he’d say, no problem, no problem. I’m just going to get the denture [00:47:40] stretched and we’ll go to the denture stretcher, and [00:47:45] then me and him would go off to his office and stand there for about 30s and [00:47:50] then come back, and he’d go stretched it nicely out and he put it back in. And invariably the patient would go, [00:47:55] oh, that does feel better. As you said.

Kash Qureshi: It’s a psychological thing.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a huge psychological. [00:48:00]

Kash Qureshi: I agree with you. It’s a definitely a psychological thing. Um, and I think that’s the main thing with patients [00:48:05] is managing the expectations.

Payman Langroudi: What about implant retained.

Kash Qureshi: Oh, I get quite a few of those as well.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:48:10] so the conversation I mean, are you patient comes in and says, I want [00:48:15] new teeth. Do you every time offer implant retained as well?

Kash Qureshi: I can I do [00:48:20] if I, if I find them suitable for it. Um, luckily we work quite close with an implant. Dentist. [00:48:25] Which one? Uh, Kashif. Doctor. Kashif. Saeed. Um, are you done? My clinical [00:48:30] training with his brother, doctor Saeed. Uh, in Corby. We used to travel up there every week. [00:48:35] From from from Walthamstow to drive up to Corby every week. Because that’s how they had their practice. [00:48:40] Um, yeah, that was an interesting one. And, um, yeah. Then we [00:48:45] got close. Um, we do a lot of immediate loadings with them, you know, we you go to surgery or whatever. [00:48:50] Yeah, all of that sort of stuff. We learned, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Tips, tips about that.

Kash Qureshi: On the [00:48:55] immediate loadings. Um, because.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a heavy, heavy sort of day, right?

Kash Qureshi: It’s a [00:49:00] heavy day if it’s unprepared. Um, if you’re prepared and got all of the stages done correctly. [00:49:05] Um, from the lab point of view, the clinical aspect just literally, seamlessly works [00:49:10] together. Um, you know, just make sure that you’ve got your, your prosthesis, which you’re going [00:49:15] to convert. Um, we’ve got a specific way of making the, uh, the all in fours. [00:49:20] We make it like a denture. We cut out flap areas and the inside palate, and then [00:49:25] if you go on the website, you’ll see what we mean. And then the reason for that is. So when the dentist is done [00:49:30] taking out all the teeth and has placed the implants, it still allows the denture to sit properly. [00:49:35] Because if you take all of that away and you’ve just got like a an arch.

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t [00:49:40] look, it.

Kash Qureshi: Just moves around all the time. It just moves around.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good.

Kash Qureshi: Point. This just holds it in place. Then once you’ve picked [00:49:45] up the, um, the mürz and so forth, you can just cut them bits off because [00:49:50] they’re just little tiny nicks and you just cut them off and voila, you’ve got a bridge. Uh, you’ve got an FP3, [00:49:55] FP2, FP1, whatever you want to do. Um, so that was one tip. I would say. Get a surgical [00:50:00] guide. You need a surgical guide. Um, it’s always worth bringing the technician in when you’re [00:50:05] placing the mürz to see what the angles are. Because you’re fixated [00:50:10] on placing the implants, you’re not your technicians looking at it from. [00:50:15] That’s going to make my life hard. So they will always tell you they want to make their life easy. Technicians will [00:50:20] make their life easy, so they will tell you no, change that to a zero degree one change that so [00:50:25] they will do that. So always bring the technician in on that because that’s worth gold I would say. [00:50:30]

Payman Langroudi: And you’re you’re pricing your [00:50:35] positioning from from the from the patient perspective, is it [00:50:40] right at the top end cost wise for.

Kash Qureshi: For the lab work or to the dentist or for the [00:50:45] patient?

Payman Langroudi: For the patient? For dentures? What do you what do you charge for full, full.

Kash Qureshi: I think for a full, [00:50:50] full. Um, from a correctly I think our precedent is 1500. So it’s 1500. [00:50:55]

Payman Langroudi: It’s not too bad.

Kash Qureshi: It’s not too bad. It’s not too little. It’s just in between. I [00:51:00] can afford to do that because of the lab? Because I got the lab. Um, plus, we got [00:51:05] a set price. I run them separate businesses, so I still invoice and so forth like that. [00:51:10] Um, you know where I’ve worked it out. You know, I’ve still maintain at least between [00:51:15] the, uh, 60 to 70% profit margin.

Payman Langroudi: That’s nice.

Kash Qureshi: So I keep it [00:51:20] that way. And if dentists are out there and they want to do 1500 dentures, speak [00:51:25] to me because we can actually do that with the Swiss. It’s a set price, I do it. I don’t [00:51:30] even work in my clinic anymore. I have another clinician there who does the work. So that was a that was an eye opener. My [00:51:35] employing a clinician for the first time. Oh man, I never knew how to do splits before. You [00:51:40] know, like where you do your. Yeah. I’ve never had to do it before. I had to actually ask ChatGPT how [00:51:45] to do it. And then it gave me a template on how to work out how much to get pay, [00:51:50] you know, 50, 50 percentage. The lab split and everything. I thought, wow, these practices actually [00:51:55] do this.

Payman Langroudi: Is that another clinical dental technician or is it.

Kash Qureshi: Clinical dental technician? Um, [00:52:00] I wouldn’t have minded a dentist coming in as well. Um, I, I didn’t really put it out there as such. [00:52:05] Um, but yeah, I was surprised at how many seats actually applied for it, because where [00:52:10] were we when we qualify? Most of the guys I know, they ended [00:52:15] up opening up their own clinics and stuff, and I thought it was a given that, you know, you qualify and you open up your [00:52:20] own clinic. But I’m finding more and more now working for practices.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:52:25]

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, I’m seeing that more and more now.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s the same with dentists. You know, the costs [00:52:30] have gone up in general, so risks gone up. Yeah. And there’s some people who don’t want [00:52:35] risk in their life, you know? I mean, you seem to thrive on it, but there are some. [00:52:40]

Kash Qureshi: People who get it.

Payman Langroudi: There’s some people who absolutely hate it. You know, they just want to do their 9 to [00:52:45] 5 go home. And by the way, as an associate, it’s I mean, I never became a practice [00:52:50] owner. Oh, really? Yeah. Because I was an associate, we started enlighten and, you know, ended up doing [00:52:55] this. But but as an associate, a high earning associate, one [00:53:00] of the nicest jobs in the world, man. Yeah. Especially in a practice where, you know, [00:53:05] they’re good to you in terms of materials, in terms of, you know, a [00:53:10] smart boss will let a high earning associate do absolutely do what he wants to do. Yeah. [00:53:15] And just keep him happy and just keep him. But high earning associates are just brilliant position [00:53:20] to be in. And I can understand why some of them don’t want to ever own a practice. Because literally [00:53:25] 9 to 5 go home and play with the dog. They don’t have to even think about work. And [00:53:30] if you’re in a practice where there’s enough patience and enough work where you’re [00:53:35] a high earning associate. Yeah, yeah, I can understand, man. Why even bother?

Kash Qureshi: You know, someone who I’ve seen thrive [00:53:40] and who I’ve seen who was an associate who now owns her own practices. [00:53:45] Marina. She’s done really well with. The one thing I like about Marina, she’s always [00:53:50] given me her time. Um, even if I rang her up, she would always answer [00:53:55] or get back, you know? Should we ring her now? See if she answers? Sure. Let’s see if she answered, [00:54:00] because she would always give me her time of day.

Payman Langroudi: Would it be funny if she doesn’t answer to you? And she answers to.

Kash Qureshi: Me that. [00:54:05]

Payman Langroudi: She.

Kash Qureshi: She if she. Because what’s the time she might be in practice?

Payman Langroudi: Patience.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, more than [00:54:10] likely.

Payman Langroudi: It’s lunchtime. It’s lunchtime.

Kash Qureshi: Oh, let’s give her a call, see what happens.

Payman Langroudi: I love this, this is the first [00:54:15] podcast first.

Kash Qureshi: All right, let’s just see. Henry, I’ve still got her name down [00:54:20] as. All right. It’s going to sound funny, but I’ve got a name down there. Speaker. Speaker I rang [00:54:25] her. Yeah, I rang her yet because I got her name down as Marina, the Queen of London. Now, the reason why [00:54:30] was because we were doing a real we was doing a skit and I just haven’t changed the name since [00:54:35] that. Right. Let’s put her on. All right. Hopefully I got a signal here. Let’s [00:54:40] see.

Payman Langroudi: How funny. [00:54:45]

Kash Qureshi: She might be busy. She might call back. I [00:54:50] don’t know.

[PHONE CALL]: Hey, guys.

Kash Qureshi: Hey, man. How you doing? You all right? [00:54:55]

[PHONE CALL]: I’m good. How are you?

Kash Qureshi: Listen, listen, listen. Yeah, I was just. I’m on the podcast with [00:55:00] Payman, and it’s live, by the way, and I. She says [00:55:05] hi.

Payman Langroudi: We made a bet. We made a bet whether you would pick up or not.

Kash Qureshi: No, no, [00:55:10] no, what it was, was I was talking about someone who’s always made time for me. And I was saying, that man always [00:55:15] makes time. And I thought, let me just call her right now.

[PHONE CALL]: Look at that.

Kash Qureshi: There [00:55:20] you go. But anyways, I hope you’re keeping well. We’ll, we’ll we’ll catch up soon, man.

[PHONE CALL]: Yeah, [00:55:25] yeah.

Kash Qureshi: Is there anything you want to say? Is there anything you want to say? Quick.

[PHONE CALL]: Oh I know, no, [00:55:30] I’m all good, but. Yeah. Hi. And I’m glad you’re on it. And I look forward to listening to it.

Kash Qureshi: All right, you know what? And anyone that [00:55:35] wants to do the DMR course, it’s running live.

[PHONE CALL]: Academy.

Kash Qureshi: There you. [00:55:40]

[PHONE CALL]: Go.

Payman Langroudi: Talk to Mr..

Kash Qureshi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks.

Kash Qureshi: Bye bye. [00:55:45] Oh wow.

Payman Langroudi: That’s funny.

Kash Qureshi: That is.

Payman Langroudi: Podcast first.

Kash Qureshi: You know what I say man always [00:55:50] makes time. And that’s one thing I appreciate more than anything else. Is time like your time I [00:55:55] appreciate that it’s more.

Payman Langroudi: Do you make her veneers?

Kash Qureshi: Um, no, I think she she’s got her own person [00:56:00] who does her veneers because they have her working. As I said to her from the outset, I [00:56:05] have always said to man Reyna, um, she’s guiding me in quite a few things in the right places. And I’ve always said [00:56:10] to her, look, um, I don’t I’m not too worried about doing your lab work. If you do need it, you’re stuck [00:56:15] in a jam. Give me a call. But I’m more than happy to be, you know, as a friend. Basis. [00:56:20] Um, which I’ve established with her over the years. We’ve done so many various things on social media. [00:56:25] So you can understand, uh, Also a working relationship [00:56:30] as such. But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: When you, um, do the work when [00:56:35] you used to do the work. Yeah, yeah. What was what was the what were a couple of [00:56:40] things about a dentist’s knowledge that was [00:56:45] lacking when it comes to, you know, on your side, like what’s, what’s the thing a couple of things you [00:56:50] wish more dentists knew that you’re surprised. They don’t know.

Kash Qureshi: I think it’s more the [00:56:55] materials, um, from the clinical aspect, um, not understanding that [00:57:00] if you leave or if your nurse leaves an impression in disinfectant, [00:57:05] it will destroy the impression we’ve had issues with, uh, practices where we’ve [00:57:10] done the lab work. It’s all fitting fine on the model, because that’s the typical [00:57:15] thing that a lab.

Payman Langroudi: The moment, isn’t.

Kash Qureshi: It? They will say that. Well, if it’s on the model and the dentist will [00:57:20] go, well, I didn’t do anything with the impression, but there’s always that section in between that no one pays attention to. [00:57:25] Yeah. And disinfection. Mixing of alginates. Expiry date of alginate. [00:57:30] That is the biggest killer in profitability in so [00:57:35] many things. Because you get a remake, it’s going to be expensive at the end of the day.

Payman Langroudi: So for that [00:57:40] reason, we supply alginate with every kit.

Kash Qureshi: We hope you’re using hydrogen five. Yeah, yeah. That’s [00:57:45] the best.

Payman Langroudi: Way to supply hydrogen five with every kit.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like a sachet of [00:57:50] it.

Kash Qureshi: I don’t know which way the cameras. Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That way or that one.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. That one.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. So yeah I remember [00:57:55] I got actually approached by Zermatt because, um, I was really raving about it at one point, and they actually asked me to come [00:58:00] down to their place in Italy. Um, they actually asked me to come down and stuff. I didn’t take [00:58:05] it up. I was stupid, but, um.

Payman Langroudi: So, so a better understanding of materials. Yeah, I [00:58:10] find, you know, I’ve seen it from both sides, though. Yeah. So. So sometimes we get [00:58:15] an impression and it’s just wrong. Right? There’s no marginal, you know, the margins. [00:58:20] Completely wrong for a bleaching tray. Yeah. And I know in your world that bleaching tray is nothing [00:58:25] but in our world we make the train a particular way. And so if we’ve got the [00:58:30] the gingival margins, you know, for some reason wrong, you know, whether there’s a, there’s a [00:58:35] artefact there or whether they’ve totally missed it, whatever it is. Yeah, there comes a point [00:58:40] where we contact the dentist and say, look, we need another impression. And [00:58:45] the majority say, go ahead and make it. Yeah. [00:58:50] And I get it on on their side. I do get it. Yeah. Because [00:58:55] it’s hard calling a patient and telling them to come back in to repeat something [00:59:00] that you’ve already done. It’s quite a difficult conversation to have with the patient, [00:59:05] not only because you know you’re wasting time, but you know, how come, how come you didn’t realise [00:59:10] it was wrong the first time? I get that. But you know, with enlightened, [00:59:15] particularly if you’re if you’re using a bad impression, you’re not doing enlighten, you [00:59:20] know, you’ve got a bad tray, you’re not doing enlighten, Enlightened. You’re doing something else. [00:59:25] And so you must have that situation every day, right?

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. You do. You do. You [00:59:30] do get these sort of situations happening quite frequently. Um, I think [00:59:35] the hardest thing is I, I because as I said, working in the clinical aspect, I [00:59:40] understand.

Payman Langroudi: You get it.

Kash Qureshi: To. Yeah, I get it to. That’s why all of my clients and even new clients I deal with a lot of. [00:59:45] Yeah. And, um, as I said, because I understand the clinical [00:59:50] aspect, I know where these guys are coming from. I know how difficult patients can be. So, I mean, it’s a bit like what you [00:59:55] do. Some times I will literally say to an associate, you need to use hydrogen five. They [01:00:00] will say, my practice is not buying it. I’ll go into my clinic, bag it up [01:00:05] like a little drug dealer, and I’ll put it in a baggie for him and I’ll give it to them. So take your special tray [01:00:10] with this impression and all the shots of the Mac. Do you remember I used to sell shots [01:00:15] like a bag shot?

Payman Langroudi: What do you mean by shot?

Kash Qureshi: They sell like a shot of, um. They sell them in individual [01:00:20] packages.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s the one we sell.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Sashay sort of thing.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. I mean, I remember for the bapd [01:00:25] once I was meant to get that, but I didn’t come in time, so I had to sit there and bag it all up into bags [01:00:30] and send it to the showcase at the time. But yeah. So I would always [01:00:35] do that. Um, we’ve, we’ve, um, dentists, especially if they haven’t got I understand that [01:00:40] the practice won’t buy them. My way of thinking is, well, if the [01:00:45] boss is not going to buy them, I’m going to buy it myself. But I think differently to everyone else. [01:00:50] But that’s just the way I am with it.

Payman Langroudi: We see. We see associates. All. All sorts. [01:00:55] Right? We’ve got a composite bonding course as well. And and we get some associates, [01:01:00] right, who buy their own scanners.

Kash Qureshi: Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And then you get some associates who [01:01:05] won’t even touch. Like, they definitely will not buy anything other [01:01:10] than their own loops or something. Yeah, yeah. Because in a way, they feel like, you know, the practice is screwing [01:01:15] me enough already as it is. You know, there’s that feeling. Yeah. Mhm. Um, and I [01:01:20] see everything in between as well. You know, you get some associates who come on our course and [01:01:25] immediately buy all the materials and you know it can if you buy everything, it can come to like a £2,000 [01:01:30] of materials on top of the course. And then you get others. And they’ve done a beautiful [01:01:35] job they’ve done. And they can tell it’s the instruments and the materials that are important. And [01:01:40] they’ll say, oh, I’m going to go ask my boss. And you get others who just there’s no even there’s no, [01:01:45] there’s no I guess, by the way, I get it right. It’s it’s money. It’s money. [01:01:50] And, you know, I actually tell them, okay, go try the technique with your own material [01:01:55] and then come back after that. I think.

Kash Qureshi: You’re right. I think you could tell [01:02:00] the difference in between the type of character, shall we say? Yeah. Uh, where someone [01:02:05] will go out and buy their own materials or equipment, or someone else would be happy to use [01:02:10] someone else if it’s there. Yeah. And I think it’s more to do with investment [01:02:15] in, you know, that’s the biggest investment you can do is an investment in yourself. That’s why going [01:02:20] on courses and buying this materials and stuff are buying things yourself. You know you’ve got ownership. [01:02:25] Put it this way if you bought a scanner yourself, you’re more than likely not going to drop that thing on the floor. But [01:02:30] if it’s your boss’s, that’s all right. Oh, sorry. I just dropped that on the floor. Let me just pick [01:02:35] that back up and put it on the shelf. Ownership is totally different. It’s a bit like renting a car. You know, if [01:02:40] you paying rent on a car, like one of them, you know, rent a car, places, you [01:02:45] know, you’re not going to look after it. You’re going to run it ragged. And, you know, unless if it’s your [01:02:50] own car, you’re going to pay attention to it. And I think it’s more to do with ownership.

Kash Qureshi: Well, I think we’re starting to go more [01:02:55] into a because I’m seeing more and more people not wanting wanting to [01:03:00] have assets. It’s strange. Right? They’re like Germany where everything’s rented. And, you know, there’s a big thing about it. [01:03:05] That’s what I’m seeing the culture becoming more of where we know when we deal with banks and stuff. You need [01:03:10] to have some form of assets, but I know that they don’t. Banks don’t really [01:03:15] care if you’ve got assets or not because it’s more headache for them. They just want to make sure that you are financially [01:03:20] viable and that’s the main key thing with them. So if anyone’s out there that are looking to [01:03:25] do various bits and pieces with banks, just take that one bit of advice that, yes, it’s nice to have assets, [01:03:30] but they don’t particularly pay too much attention because it’s going to cost them a lot more to seize [01:03:35] that asset. You know, uh, you know, like tangible assets, like microphones and all that, you [01:03:40] know, what are they going to do? Who are they going to sell it to? They’re going to sell it to, you know, it takes time.

Payman Langroudi: How old are. [01:03:45]

Kash Qureshi: You? I’m 37 now.

Payman Langroudi: So have you got like a five year, ten year [01:03:50] idea of what’s going to happen next.

Kash Qureshi: Man. You know, growing up I was lucky to make it [01:03:55] to 20 years old. So, um, but I was, you know, I do have a plan, um, [01:04:00] in place.

Payman Langroudi: Um, are you going to buy more labs, for instance?

Kash Qureshi: I might possibly do, um, you [01:04:05] know, there is that section there. There is a sector there. Um, to buy more laboratories, grow the business. [01:04:10] My main thing is the future. I’m always thinking in the future, I’m. I know about here and now [01:04:15] and present. I present. I am aware of that. I’m aware that these things are happening. But I’m just thinking about [01:04:20] the future and you know, the future that I want for my family, uh, for my daughter, [01:04:25] um, you know, growing up and stuff like that. My wife, my daughter. I want to be able to [01:04:30] be able to just spend more time, you know, every day I do a thing [01:04:35] called a service technique. I don’t know if you know that savours technique. No, it’s a mindset [01:04:40] thing. Um, where you do a silence for [01:04:45] six minutes. Uh, affirmations, uh, vision. So you you sit there and think about [01:04:50] a vision, uh, exercise reading. And I think the last one is scribing. [01:04:55]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yes. It’s like that early the morning routine.

Kash Qureshi: I wake up, I wake [01:05:00] up quite early in the morning, uh, sometimes about two, sometimes three. I wake up naturally.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re [01:05:05] awake?

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, I’m ready for. I’ve got to tell you a story about this man. I’m ready for war at that time because I do my stretches at [01:05:10] three. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What time do you go to bed?

Kash Qureshi: Um, sometimes. Eight. Nine.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, God. What time [01:05:15] did you get home?

Kash Qureshi: I can’t sometimes I can’t remember. Two. Two. Three.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. [01:05:20]

Kash Qureshi: Okay. That’s better. It’s just lately I’ve been coming back. Back lately because I’ve been. I’ve had [01:05:25] so many things this this month.

Payman Langroudi: So your whole day has just pulled back?

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. That’s basically. [01:05:30]

Payman Langroudi: When you wake up to when you get home.

Kash Qureshi: At that time, because I feel like I’ve got an edge over the world and people and [01:05:35] stuff like that. And the only time, the only people that are around at that time in the morning is [01:05:40] spirits and ghosts and demons and drug dealers. That’s the only things that people around at that time in [01:05:45] the morning. But I’m cool in that environment. I can operate in that environment. But doing that savers technique [01:05:50] works. It calms me down, makes me think straight. It puts me in the right sort of [01:05:55] mindset. Plus, I go to the gym four times a week as well, so.

Payman Langroudi: It’s 4 [01:06:00] a.m..

Kash Qureshi: I’ve done that. It didn’t work man. I was knackered after that, but I usually go [01:06:05] after I go to the lab because the gym is across the road from me, so it makes sense to go there. But [01:06:10] I tend to do the savers technique. Um, that puts me in the right mindset for the rest [01:06:15] of the day. Plus, doing the exercises stretches you have to do, um, where you’re working at a bench, you’re always sort of like [01:06:20] that. So it really does do your backing after a while.

Payman Langroudi: Um, one thing I’ve noticed about labs, [01:06:25] um, I hung out a bit at, uh, you know, hit hit Palmer. [01:06:30]

Kash Qureshi: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah I do, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: A bit of hits at his lab and with our lab when [01:06:35] we were a little bit undermanned. Yeah. One thing. One thing about labs is that, you know, you’re [01:06:40] working to a deadline.

Kash Qureshi: Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so sometimes people have to stay [01:06:45] late. Is that right? Does that happen to you? Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: That happens.

Payman Langroudi: And so what if you’re leaving at [01:06:50] two or do you stay late those days.

Kash Qureshi: Them days I’ll stay late if it needs to be done. [01:06:55] Yeah. If it needs to be done, it needs to be done. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not shy. I get my hands dirty.

Payman Langroudi: And you know what I’m [01:07:00] saying? If your day is like, generally you’re going home at two. Sometimes it sometimes because I remember [01:07:05] hit slap. Once we were I was like eight at night and everyone was still there because there was a they were [01:07:10] behind. They had That’s that’s extreme. They had to deal with it, you know?

Kash Qureshi: And you have.

Payman Langroudi: To. Look, we have [01:07:15] a thing express. Yeah, yeah.

Kash Qureshi: Like a day or something. Same day.

Payman Langroudi: Same day. [01:07:20] A normal turnaround is ten working days. Our express is three working days.

Kash Qureshi: Wow. That’s [01:07:25] a big difference.

Payman Langroudi: So and then and we’ve got a type of user who we give express to [01:07:30] every single case they do. Okay. So yeah they’re big. We call them elite partners. Now [01:07:35] you must have that situation right where you said 100 to 200 [01:07:40] a day comes in.

Kash Qureshi: That’s I think some labs are out there doing so much more.

Payman Langroudi: Of course, of course they will. [01:07:45] Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: But you know how many he does.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me.

Kash Qureshi: Man, I heard.

Payman Langroudi: 100,000. [01:07:50]

Kash Qureshi: A week.

Payman Langroudi: 100,000 a week, minimum.

Kash Qureshi: They do [01:07:55] 90,000 crowns a week.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my God, man.

Kash Qureshi: Imagine doing that. [01:08:00] Business is a beautiful business. Them guys know what they’re doing there. But American, the American [01:08:05] dentistry is totally different.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. It’s a much bigger market. But. But tell me this. You get sometimes [01:08:10] a dentist says, um, can I have it back by next Wednesday? And they [01:08:15] don’t get that. You can’t sometimes do that even though next Wednesday [01:08:20] is six days away. It’s impossible for that to happen. Explain. Explain that [01:08:25] because we get that all the time.

Kash Qureshi: I’ll explain it so the dental practice. Understand? [01:08:30] I don’t think they actually get it with practices. They have set numbers of patients that come in. [01:08:35] You basically say that this dentist is going to do ten patients today. [01:08:40] You wouldn’t give them 20 because you know he’s not going to be able to do it. Labs operate [01:08:45] differently where we have a pickup. We don’t know if we’re picking up one job [01:08:50] or 30 jobs.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: If you get that over a range of 60 to 70 [01:08:55] drops.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a massive difference.

Kash Qureshi: You’ve got so many cases coming in, [01:09:00] and every lab is exactly the same because you can’t control them. Amount of units. The [01:09:05] only time you can control it, like what we’re doing now, is that if we are overloaded on [01:09:10] that day, um, our admin team would ring the department and say, uh, [01:09:15] x, Y and z cases in. Will you be able to move another case or [01:09:20] can we move it on to that day. And then I will talk about it. Some days you can. You’ve always [01:09:25] got to leave a little bit of gas in the tank to take on an extra case here and there. I tried to work in advance. [01:09:30] So our lab system is built in a way that our internal dockets [01:09:35] that are our internal deadlines are two days ahead of the appointment.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, we do the same. [01:09:40]

Kash Qureshi: You have to. Otherwise sometimes we have to work to the docket. I mean, there was a stage where, you [01:09:45] know, it’s like if you got an X amount of work, you can’t turn anything around for 2 [01:09:50] to 3 weeks and you’re all working flat out to do it. And I think the main [01:09:55] thing is, I mean, what’s your views on people saying about work life balance? Do you [01:10:00] think that’s a thing?

Payman Langroudi: Not for me, not for me, but I do recognise it with [01:10:05] the Employees.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You gotta understand, when you own the business, you [01:10:10] basically set it up to your own preference. Like you’re saying, you go home at two. Yeah. You [01:10:15] can’t do that as an employee.

Kash Qureshi: No, no, no. You’re right. I mean, I.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t think there’s such a thing. I sometimes [01:10:20] don’t even like the weekend coming, you know?

Kash Qureshi: I don’t mind it. I mean, don’t get me wrong. [01:10:25] I don’t mind it. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: I’m just being honest sometimes. Yeah. I prefer the week to the weekend. And the reason?

Kash Qureshi: Because you’re busy [01:10:30] doing things or.

Payman Langroudi: Just during the week. I’m my own boss. Yeah. During the weekend, I’m working for [01:10:35] the family.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s.

Kash Qureshi: A big part of why I.

Payman Langroudi: Love working. [01:10:40] I love working for the family, but I feel like on a Tuesday I can [01:10:45] do exactly what I want. Yeah. On a Saturday. What are [01:10:50] we doing? What are we doing as a family?

Kash Qureshi: There’s no structure.

Payman Langroudi: It’s nice. It’s nice doing things with the family. But. But [01:10:55] what I’m saying, sometimes I prefer the week. Yeah. Never, never see [01:11:00] that in an employee. Never.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, I get that. And I think that phrase has been [01:11:05] used a hell of a lot lately in.

Payman Langroudi: Work life balance.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, that phrase just gets overused, but I think what’s ended up [01:11:10] happening is it’s getting used by the wrong type of people, because people use that as a [01:11:15] justification to not do stuff. And I think that’s what’s happening. Can be I’ve [01:11:20] seen it happen with people where it’s a bit like the word that gets used [01:11:25] a lot is passive aggressive. That gets so much like.

Payman Langroudi: Sort of opposites.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, man. [01:11:30] You know, I had to I had a staff member tell me about another staff member who was passive aggressive. [01:11:35] And I thought, you know, I’m gonna have to research this, this word because everyone keeps using it. And I looked it up [01:11:40] and there’s about 40 subheadings as to what a passive aggressive person is. [01:11:45] And there was only one thing on there that that person followed. [01:11:50] And I’m thinking right. So you’ve just labelled someone a whole thing over this [01:11:55] one word of passive aggressive. But I think that’s just a culture.

Payman Langroudi: What I will say about work [01:12:00] life balance is this definitely happening in dentistry. Tell me if it’s happening in labs as [01:12:05] well. A lot of the young dentists are saying, I want to work three days a week or [01:12:10] two days a week, and I only want to do this type of work. And that’s the work life [01:12:15] balance I want. Yeah. And it pisses off principals. It pisses [01:12:20] off, uh, you know, old school people who say, well, what do you mean? You’ve got to be a dentist. You got [01:12:25] to be able to do everything. And it pisses off people who essentially put in the hours themselves [01:12:30] back in the day and can’t understand why a young person would now be that way inclined. But I [01:12:35] quite like it. I think it’s nice. It’s nice. Do you get that in technicians? Do you get technicians [01:12:40] coming in saying, I just want to work two days a week? Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: No. That happens. You just got to be flexible. Yeah. As an employer, [01:12:45] as I said, it goes back to people and understanding people. The younger generation are not [01:12:50] going to do the same things that I had to do. Yeah. They’re not going to. It’s as simple as times are different. You just [01:12:55] got to be flexible with people. And I have noticed it’s very difficult with dentists to actually [01:13:00] do that where they work in, in various practices because from our point of view, we’re chasing dentists around [01:13:05] oh so and so is not working today. He’s at so and so and you ring that oh no, he’s not here. So I [01:13:10] get that.

Payman Langroudi: And you know, one thing, one thing I think people don’t appreciate. I didn’t appreciate it until I got a lab [01:13:15] here was the number of people you need just for that sort of follow [01:13:20] up. The the instructions aren’t clear. Like we’ve [01:13:25] got two full time people chasing just just odds and ends. Odds [01:13:30] and ends like, you know, no one understands that. That’s something that has to happen. Yeah. No, [01:13:35] it’s it’s frustrating.

Kash Qureshi: But I mean.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the business.

Kash Qureshi: It’s the it’s the nature of the business. [01:13:40] At the end of the day, they’ve always been very much like that. I would say, um, where they [01:13:45] constantly, um, we constantly we, we, we [01:13:50] send emails now and our dentist once actually rang me, um, because I had a good relationship [01:13:55] with. She rang me, she went, why do you send me emails? Why don’t you just phone me and tell me that the [01:14:00] shade’s not on it or you can’t. Or the date’s too quick, I say, well, I don’t think you would like to get disturbed [01:14:05] at 3:00 in the morning.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: I don’t know about you unless you want me to, but I don’t [01:14:10] think that we should go down that road. So emails are the best ways.

Payman Langroudi: Traceable as a guesstimate. [01:14:15] What percentage of your work is scanner and what percentage is.

Kash Qureshi: Oh, that’s getting higher and higher now.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:14:20]

Kash Qureshi: Um, I would say at least a 40% now is becoming more scannable 3D prints. Yeah. [01:14:25]

Payman Langroudi: 3d prints I see houses 6065.

Kash Qureshi: Well, your most yours is 3D prints. That’s [01:14:30] beautiful for bleaching trays and shutdowns and stuff like that.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I prefer models, [01:14:35] man.

Kash Qureshi: No, I’ll tell you what. If you put. All right, if you if you got some, um, have you [01:14:40] got some tester, I can tell you which one is done on a 3D printer and which one’s done on a plaster. Yeah, just based [01:14:45] on the quality of the enlighten the of the whitening tray.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:14:50] I my my, my, I’ve tested it. My position on it is that I can make a tray [01:14:55] on a plaster model than on a plastic model.

Kash Qureshi: I don’t know. I’ve got mixed views on [01:15:00] it.

Payman Langroudi: We’re trying really hard to make them as good as each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that. At the very end [01:15:05] and with our process, with our process, there’s different processes, right? Um, we’re trying really hard [01:15:10] and we’ve improved it a lot. Yeah, yeah, we’ve improved. But and, you know, 65% of them are scans right now. [01:15:15] Yeah. So there’s no way around this. It’s going to be soon. It’ll be 85 and then soon to be 100%. Yeah. Um, [01:15:20] but right now I prefer it’s to do with the the gas permeability [01:15:25] of the stone. Yes. Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: Well, you got to control the expansion rates.

Payman Langroudi: As [01:15:30] an as an air goes through the stone. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas air doesn’t go through the resin.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:15:35] No. Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: It depends on your.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a resin that is gas permeable? I don’t know. I haven’t found a resin. [01:15:40] I’ve tried 12.

[TRANSITION]: There isn’t a resin.

Kash Qureshi: But it could be more to do with [01:15:45] the actual 3D print. Are you doing, like, a full base or a horseshoe?

Payman Langroudi: No. Horseshoe.

Kash Qureshi: Horseshoe? So that should be fine. [01:15:50] I mean, I know obviously I’m not going to ask you what machines you’re using and so forth, but it depends on the machine. [01:15:55]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, for the print. A cigar?

Kash Qureshi: No no no no, not not that. The actual machine that you’re doing [01:16:00] your your suck downs on. Your pressure forms on.

Payman Langroudi: I see.

Kash Qureshi: You now. And, uh, it depends [01:16:05] on the type of beads. You know, back in the day, we never used to use the metal beads. We used to use lentil seeds.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:16:10] we’ve done that too.

Kash Qureshi: We used to use lentil seeds, uh, back in the day.

Payman Langroudi: Just cheaper. Right?

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. [01:16:15] And it used to allow air to travel through. We used to drill holes in models. [01:16:20] That was one thing we used to do.

Payman Langroudi: So I’ve tried printing holes in models.

Kash Qureshi: No, [01:16:25] no, I wouldn’t think so. It’s I find with the I [01:16:30] was doing a lot of 3D printing, uh, pressure form at one point I was just getting loads of them. And [01:16:35] it depends on I mean, you if you I’m saying it depends on the separating [01:16:40] solution. That’s the main key thing. If you tried using a relief spray.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, [01:16:45] we do. Yeah. Yeah we do.

Kash Qureshi: Depends on the relief spray.

Payman Langroudi: Or the type. [01:16:50]

Kash Qureshi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, excellent.

Kash Qureshi: We’ve got a special one that we buy from. Um. Uh, [01:16:55] I think it’s Abby Dental supplies. I mean, if you can, you can. You can speak to them directly. I’ve got [01:17:00] no problems with it. And we buy it specifically for them because of the the [01:17:05] heat factor. Every one of these release bays I use at different heats, because we use them with our [01:17:10] valve system, because them crucibles are heated up to like 500, 700 degrees. So [01:17:15] you need a release spray to withstand that amount of heat. Same thing with the melting the suck downs. Because [01:17:20] it works both ways, we tend to get good results with the. I’m sure your whitening trays [01:17:25] are exactly the same, where you test the quality of the pressure by. If you hold it [01:17:30] up into a light, you can see the detail of the gingival crevices. It looks like it’s like [01:17:35] a masterpiece. When you look at it, you’re like, because we do that with our quality control, we look at it and [01:17:40] then you can see the crevices, everything. And it’s just like, bang, you know, when it hasn’t pressure form, when [01:17:45] it’s dull.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly.

Kash Qureshi: When you get that dull look and you’re looking at it and you think, yeah, you need to redo that again. [01:17:50]

Payman Langroudi: You know your stuff.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. Well, yeah, I’ve done so many of them that I [01:17:55] just know what I’m looking for, and instantly I can tell if it was done on a model or if it [01:18:00] was done on a 3D print. There are obviously loads of techniques that you know what? Just like yourself, I’ve [01:18:05] tried loads of techniques. I’ve tried so many things to get it.

Payman Langroudi: The nice thing about we used [01:18:10] to outsource our lab work, and the nice thing about having it in-house is that you can try things.

Kash Qureshi: Absolutely [01:18:15] R&D all the way.

Payman Langroudi: Quite difficult with an outsourced lab because outsourced lab does not want that call. [01:18:20] Know that says, hey, try this, try that. They just want to get on with the job.

Kash Qureshi: I know, I know, I know.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:18:25] tell me this. We’d like to talk about mistakes on this pod. What comes to mind when I say [01:18:30] what mistakes have you made? I’d like kind of like one. Which is like a technical [01:18:35] one. And one that might be like a business one.

Kash Qureshi: Okay. Um, [01:18:40] a technical one. I’m just trying to think of the biggest mistake I made. Well, [01:18:45] it wasn’t really my mistake, but as an owner, you have to take it as your mistake. Yeah. Um, we’ve [01:18:50] done a case, Uh. Dentist. Uh. I [01:18:55] don’t know. I made sure I was on top of it. I made sure that it was good. Correct. Everything [01:19:00] was right. Very particular dentist. And it [01:19:05] got to it. I double checked everything. I made sure it was all all right. The [01:19:10] name on the 3D print was the same. Everything was good. Went to the practice. The wrong job [01:19:15] in the 3D.

Payman Langroudi: The name.

Kash Qureshi: They put the wrong file [01:19:20] in the wrong place. And the name that. That patient that cost me that practice, [01:19:25] that cost me that practice. And I didn’t really I [01:19:30] was I was annoyed because it was for a friend that the dentist was one of my friends. [01:19:35] I would class her as my friend and um, that happened and I had to explain [01:19:40] myself to, um, the dentist in the end.

Payman Langroudi: And it was a clerical error. [01:19:45] Do you not have a technical error, like a situation where a patient’s been left [01:19:50] and a dentist gone berserk. And because I’m sure maybe this dentist did. Yeah, but something [01:19:55] you did wrong. Something what could it be like? I don’t know, I don’t. Know enough [01:20:00] about it.

Kash Qureshi: I’m just trying to think of what the the biggest, the biggest faults we would get technically [01:20:05] is if we’ve done the wrong shades or if we’ve made it completely the wrong job, or we [01:20:10] missed an extraction or we haven’t done a.

Payman Langroudi: But you sometimes the technician goes in for [01:20:15] the shade taking. Right.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then and then the shades still wrong. But [01:20:20] that and it’s stressful. I’m sure as the technician who’s going in because you’ve got to make [01:20:25] it absolutely right now because you were there. Yeah. It must be very stressful. Yeah. [01:20:30]

Kash Qureshi: I think the the cases that we find are most stressful is a remake of [01:20:35] a remake. Ah, because it’s a lot of cost involved in that from your time, clinical time. [01:20:40] Um, so it’s a lot of wasted time. And that to me seems like the biggest. [01:20:45] I’m just trying to think if there’s any because we’re we’re dealing with so many cases. I’m just trying to think of. There’s one in particular [01:20:50] that’s gone wrong. I can’t off the top of my head.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes it comes to you later. What [01:20:55] about business error?

Kash Qureshi: Uh, business error.

Payman Langroudi: Something you’d wish you’d done differently [01:21:00] sooner or later? Different. Someone you treated, an employee who [01:21:05] left unexpectedly. Something like that.

Kash Qureshi: I think the the biggest thing [01:21:10] for me would be probably spending more time working [01:21:15] on the business rather than in the business.

Payman Langroudi: You wish you had done that earlier.

Kash Qureshi: Because at [01:21:20] the end of the day, when you focus working in the business, you know you’ve [01:21:25] got a lot of people that rely on you to be, you know, they’ve got mortgages, they’ve got families. Yeah. [01:21:30] You know, in the grand scheme of things, all of a sudden you’ve got like 100 people that you’re responsible for. [01:21:35] So working you owe it to your people to work [01:21:40] on the business rather than in the business, because you need to be bringing constant revenue in to [01:21:45] cover costs. Make sure everything’s okay. Um, I wish I understood [01:21:50] finances more. Um, that would have been my key thing, too. I mean, I went on an accountancy [01:21:55] course and everything because I didn’t understand what my accounts were saying to me. They talk to you in a language that you don’t [01:22:00] understand. And I think they did it on purpose, actually. But they they talk to you in such a way [01:22:05] that you just don’t get them half the time. So I went on accountancy and I started understanding what these guys were [01:22:10] saying. Yeah, it did, it did. I started understanding things and I understand, [01:22:15] you know, I started understanding gross. You know. Net bottom line, top line. I, I [01:22:20] got it. Now I can look at a managerial report which I get monthly. Now that’s the tip for anyone who’s doing [01:22:25] business in your practice. And make sure you get a monthly management report. Don’t listen [01:22:30] to your accountant say it’s okay. Every quarter. Make sure you get a monthly one. You’ll start seeing trends.

Payman Langroudi: To be able to read it though. [01:22:35]

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, well you have to be able to read it as well. But I mean you can. Anything in brackets means [01:22:40] that you’re at a loss.

Payman Langroudi: At the beginning.

Kash Qureshi: That’s the easiest way [01:22:45] of saying it. If you see brackets, you know that you’re at a loss. So just focus on the numbers. Without it, [01:22:50] they don’t they don’t simplify. They don’t tell you. You’re just expected to know. Make [01:22:55] sure you understand your books. Because if anything goes to HMRC, you know there’s two [01:23:00] certain things in life. There’s death and taxes and HMRC won’t go to your accountant. They will go to you. [01:23:05] You’re responsible, not them. You even have to sign a bit of paper to say that your accountants [01:23:10] are not responsible for anything than they are. But, um, I would definitely suggest that.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:23:15] how about just where the business slows down? I mean, dentistry does tend to be [01:23:20] quite cyclical in that right now it’s very slow half term. Half term. Yeah. Um, [01:23:25] have you had moments like have you had it long enough now that you can see those patterns. [01:23:30]

Kash Qureshi: We used to be able to. The trends are just so bizarre now.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah you’re right, you’re right. It’s much [01:23:35] more volatile now than it used to be.

Kash Qureshi: I mean, October’s used to be the most busiest. Yeah. December, obviously. Crazy [01:23:40] Christmas rush. March. April. You’d a rush. You know, they were your set time. [01:23:45] But now, um, we’re finding that, uh, January February is the most busiest. [01:23:50] And turnover. It’s more higher in ten months than it is the rest of the months. And I don’t know if [01:23:55] that. I did see a report from, um. Evident who I’m so touch [01:24:00] wood. If this is wood. Um, I’m happy on the fact that they’ve done a report on [01:24:05] the lab industry, um, on whatever labs they’ve got. And they were saying that in the first [01:24:10] quarter, a lot of labs were down by like 8%. They were down. Mine was [01:24:15] up by 10%. So I was happy I was above board keeping things in the right way. I’m [01:24:20] moving in the right direction. So I was happy. The first quarter I was 10% higher than I was.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:24:25] have you ever been in the opposite situation where you feel like.

Kash Qureshi: Oh man, you know, the biggest mistake I ever had? And I just [01:24:30] come to me, right? I had payroll two days time, had [01:24:35] bills, you know, all them sort of things happening. And then this [01:24:40] was late paying me, man. You guys don’t like paying labs. I don’t understand why.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t it.

Kash Qureshi: Very cool? Man? [01:24:45] We got lives.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very common, isn’t it?

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, it is, but I think it’s just business. I [01:24:50] only found out about for years how the NHS system actually pays dental practices. [01:24:55] I never knew. I just assumed that they got him every month. It was only until I found [01:25:00] out once that they get paid at a certain time. I thought, why didn’t they tell labs that nobody, no lab [01:25:05] knew this or they did? I don’t know, they didn’t mention it. But anyways, yeah, two days payroll [01:25:10] looks at my bank account. Od’d on. I gotta [01:25:15] buy a Hoover. I didn’t have enough money to [01:25:20] buy a hoover that month. Didn’t have enough money to buy even a hoover. I [01:25:25] was so reliant. I don’t like being in that position. I was so reliant on certain [01:25:30] clients paying. So I had enough for payroll. Do not be in that situation. [01:25:35] There’s not an enjoyable. They paid and I paid staff. I didn’t pay myself. I didn’t pay myself that [01:25:40] month. Yeah, because I just just didn’t pay myself just to make sure I was. I was more fretting [01:25:45] first ever time that happened to me, that happened to me within the first four months of me [01:25:50] owning the business. So you got to remember, I don’t know these things.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So cash crisis. That is right. [01:25:55] I think we spent the first three, four years in from one cash crisis [01:26:00] to another. Yeah. You know, it’s one of those nightmares. And the reason I asked you about the [01:26:05] sort of the seasonal.

Kash Qureshi: Cash flows.

Payman Langroudi: And the seasonal trends, I remember being [01:26:10] caught out like every August for the first four, you know, they just did not understand. [01:26:15] Wasn’t expecting until I got the pattern recognition effort, you know. Oh, yeah. August [01:26:20] is going to be quiet. That’s the best time to.

Kash Qureshi: Start taking holidays.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly. You [01:26:25] know, end up going to Lebanon in August, which is a terrible time of year to go, [01:26:30] but only because it’s slow, right? It’s slow. It’s a slow time of year. Let’s [01:26:35] end with the usual questions. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation.

Kash Qureshi: Oh me too. I enjoyed this. It’s been [01:26:40] really good, actually.

Payman Langroudi: The final questions are around. Um, fantasy [01:26:45] dinner party.

Kash Qureshi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests. Dead or alive. [01:26:50]

Kash Qureshi: Dead or alive? Right. Okay, so one of them would definitely be Jim Glidewell.

Payman Langroudi: Who’s [01:26:55] that?

Kash Qureshi: Glidewell dental labs.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see.

Kash Qureshi: He’s like.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kash Qureshi: California. [01:27:00] Yeah. He’s done really well. And his success shows. I would love to.

Payman Langroudi: Glidewell I [01:27:05] thought I heard yeah well who’s that? Glidewell. Glidewell. Glidewell. Yeah [01:27:10] I heard light bulb. Jim.

Kash Qureshi: Jim. Jim Glidewell.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: Um, so yeah, that would be one. [01:27:15] Another one would be the strange one because I’ve never really, really talked about it with anyone would be my granddad. [01:27:20] I never met him, but I knew he had something to do because I remember seeing a book, [01:27:25] you know, like with them images that they used to draw, like scientific things. I remember seeing [01:27:30] that. So I think he had some sort of technical background in something. So I would like to have done [01:27:35] that with him.

Payman Langroudi: And dad’s dad or mum’s dad.

Kash Qureshi: My mom’s dad. Um, but I didn’t really [01:27:40] know my father that well. Um, I’ve sort of seen him a [01:27:45] few times in my life.

Payman Langroudi: Your own father?

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, my real dad. Um, yeah, I’ve seen him a few [01:27:50] times in my life, and, uh, he died, uh, just after [01:27:55] Covid in that time. I remember that very well, actually, because, uh. Yeah. Thanks. [01:28:00] Um, because I was in the lab, a phone call from my uncle. Now [01:28:05] you’re a member. I’m quite distant with my real father as well. So it’s a bit like. Oh, okay. [01:28:10] He’s not here anymore. Okay. I [01:28:15] didn’t know how to take it. So, um, that’s when I had this tattoo done, uh, [01:28:20] of the Eye of Horus and the Eye of Ra. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Did your parents [01:28:25] split up?

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, when they were young. When they were young? Young? So just literally after I was born, [01:28:30] actually, they split up, so I got the phone call. I remember it very well because [01:28:35] I had drivers that were giving me grief in the morning about their run going, oh look, look, look. [01:28:40] I’m sitting there just biting my tongue sort of thing, trying to keep my cool [01:28:45] with everything. But yeah, that happened. And, um, you’d like.

Payman Langroudi: Feel a deficit [01:28:50] of not having your dad around as growing up? Or was it you never [01:28:55] knew any different or. I mean, surely when, when when he passed away, you must have reflected [01:29:00] on that question.

Kash Qureshi: I think the only thing I would have reflected on, because I didn’t [01:29:05] feel that much emotion at the time, because everything [01:29:10] that I wish growing up as a kid, you know, like I see my friends doing stuff [01:29:15] with their dads, you know, they used to do like, uh, you know, go to [01:29:20] the park or even something simple like that. Put the socks away for the dad. Like the dad would put the socks away in a drawer. I don’t know why I [01:29:25] remember that, but I remember that in my head I’m thinking, well, why am I dad doing this? But then [01:29:30] everything that I’ve been taught and everything I’ve done, I don’t think there’s much he could guide me [01:29:35] in life with afterwards, because I had done. I’ve gone through some of the most horrible [01:29:40] things as a young age. I’ve. If you think about my trajectory from young to 26, [01:29:45] I had done a lot of things that most people take some 50, 60 years to do or [01:29:50] go through. So there wasn’t much he could show me. And, you know, [01:29:55] there’s a phrase, um, that Tupac says in one of his songs. [01:30:00] Sorry. You could tell it was from the streets back in the day. Yeah. That he says, you know, [01:30:05] uh, he says something that, um, people thought I was, um, [01:30:10] I was heartless because, um, I didn’t cry when [01:30:15] my father died. But how can I cry for a stranger, you [01:30:20] know? But my anger couldn’t let me feel for a stranger, as he says in his song. [01:30:25] Which is true, and I, I, I knew that phrase quite well, because when I had done my media [01:30:30] studies thing, we had to make a magazine, and that was one of the key phrases I used. I didn’t think, [01:30:35] now that I think about it just now, I think that maybe there was a subliminal thing from there [01:30:40] to there, I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Look, the way you said it to me, when when that incident happened [01:30:45] and you realised I’ve got to get myself out of this situation. Yeah. There’s a self-reliance [01:30:50] that comes with not having your dad around. A self-reliance. [01:30:55] And that self-reliance is probably the reason why you manage to do all the things you managed to [01:31:00] do. Yeah. So, you know, you as a 17 year old, were way [01:31:05] more independent and self-reliant than I was. Yeah, because you had to be. Yeah. [01:31:10] So I get that, I get I get the benefit.

Kash Qureshi: I got to thank my mum for that because she taught me. I haven’t told you about [01:31:15] the first time I got paid.

Payman Langroudi: Go on.

Kash Qureshi: Oh. When I first started the lab, the first ever [01:31:20] payment from the lab to buy.

Payman Langroudi: Something for your mum.

Kash Qureshi: No, no no, no. Oh, you know what? I was shocked [01:31:25] myself. I still had mum, if you’re watching this. Yeah. You remember this day as well because I. I kicked about [01:31:30] it. First paycheque was £496. Yeah. As an apprentice? Yeah. [01:31:35] Working my ass off. Literally. Yeah. I come home, I [01:31:40] show my mum my first paycheque. I said my wage slip was a green one. And I said, look, this is my first paycheque. [01:31:45] She said, oh, okay. That’s really good. Yeah. Really proud of you. I’m gonna need £300 [01:31:50] for rent. I went you what? She went. Yeah. Do [01:31:55] you think things are free? And you know what? I kicked up about it. I said, what’s the point of me working? [01:32:00] I might as well just not work, you know, because you’re just taking everything. You’re literally robbing me. I might as well even just work. So [01:32:05] literally, you know, after that, now that I think about it, you know what? What I would do to go back to them days, you [01:32:10] know, because them days were I wasn’t as grateful as I am now, [01:32:15] knowing the amount of bills I got coming out left, right and centre, you know, running a business, family life, [01:32:20] house, you know, so many expenses going out. Man, what I’d give to go back to that day of [01:32:25] that. But yeah, that was some crazy times back in the day. But I think [01:32:30] that being self-reliant has helped me do a lot of things that I’m doing now in business. [01:32:35] It teaches you to go through the hurdles. You know, you get a bad month. I’m not going to sit there. You know, [01:32:40] some of the situations I’ve been in, like for instance, like payroll two days time, no money. [01:32:45] You know, some people, you know, commit suicide over things like that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: But you’ve got to think to yourself, [01:32:50] you’ve got to have that mentality of the hustlers mentality. I’ll get it back on the next one, and [01:32:55] I did. I got it back on the next one. Sometimes when I have conversations with my accountant and he [01:33:00] just puts me on a depression mode for some reason, I don’t know. Skilful in making you depressed about life [01:33:05] and go, look, you know, you just gotta be positive, man. That’s just the way things are in dentistry. Oh, but you know [01:33:10] business. Listen, you don’t understand dentistry. Dentistry is not the same. As you [01:33:15] know. We’ve got different expenses to you guys. We’ve got different expenses. You just gotta understand, things are different. [01:33:20]

Payman Langroudi: I think in business in general. Right? You. After a while, you come to, you still [01:33:25] have all the ups and downs, but you just come to manage them better in terms [01:33:30] of whatever the bad news is you feel like. Either it’ll go away or you’ll [01:33:35] find a way around it. Whereas at the beginning I remember like massive, like [01:33:40] worry and pain. Whenever anything bad would happen.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. You think about it a lot, [01:33:45] right?

Payman Langroudi: A lot. And guilt and whatever it was, whatever the thing was, um, treason, [01:33:50] you know? Whereas now, you know, stuff still happens every day, man. Yeah, [01:33:55] but but, you know, you’re just more sort of level headed about it. Um, it’s like, you know, it’s like it’s [01:34:00] like being calm, getting used to the chaos in a way. Yeah. You know, I tell.

Kash Qureshi: You the last thing, I’ll leave you with my [01:34:05] street life. The last thing was only happened about a year and a half ago. I was doing my [01:34:10] usual run and coming into the lab early, like 2:00 in the morning. I was driving a smart car at the time. Not [01:34:15] a fancy car. Just run around. Two door thing. I was going through Chingford. You know where Chingford is? Yeah. [01:34:20] So I was driving through Chingford and there’s a McDonald’s on a corner. And, um, I’ve been [01:34:25] previously stopped by police a lot of times in the car, and so I’m used to it. Yeah. [01:34:30] So they’ve done a lot of stop and searches and so forth like that. So I’m driving and um, [01:34:35] this car comes out of McDonald’s and comes up behind me, starts flashing his lights, and I’m thinking, okay, [01:34:40] maybe he wants to overtake me. Maybe he wants to go into the next road is coming up because there’s a roundabout there. [01:34:45] Unmarked, unmarked. I thought it was unmarked. So I thought, okay, this is what they do because they police. [01:34:50] If they’ve ever stopped you. Anyone knows that they ride up really close. They try to startle you at like 2:00 [01:34:55] in the morning for like, okay, he’s signalling to turn left, so I’m thinking he’s going to go left in a second.

Kash Qureshi: He [01:35:00] didn’t. And I thought, right, he’s following me. He’s still doing his speeding up slowing down, flashing I come to [01:35:05] the roundabout I thought I’m gonna turn. I’m not going to signal where I’m going to go. If he follows me, I know it’s on. [01:35:10] So he follows me. I ring the police, I say, right, I’m at some location [01:35:15] in Chingford. Is this one of your guys behind me right now? This is his reg plate. [01:35:20] Because you guys do things like this and this is all recorded on police. I’ve still got the texts text [01:35:25] from them and, um, they went right. There’s none of our police people in this area [01:35:30] right now. I thought, oh, shit. I thought, something’s going to go down. So then [01:35:35] this guy starts speeding up on the side of me. We’re driving, like 50 now, [01:35:40] both from each side. Um, we’re at a golf course bit. Yeah. So we’re both driving. He’s driving on the opposite side [01:35:45] of the road, so he’s trying to push my car in. I think. What the hell’s going on? I’m on the phone to [01:35:50] the police at that time.

Kash Qureshi: And I said, right, I’m coming up to a dual carriageway. You know, it turns into a dual carriageway. [01:35:55] I said, one of us is going to die right now, and it ain’t gonna [01:36:00] be me. What do I do? Because he’s going neck for neck with me. [01:36:05] I’m driving. I’ve literally got a barrier right in front of me. And the police guy went, he goes, [01:36:10] I don’t know. And I went, what do you mean you don’t know? He goes, I’ve never been involved [01:36:15] in anything like this. Like a hijacking. It’s me. Hey, you need to tell me what to do right now. So luckily, [01:36:20] by then, the guy drove behind me and said, right, I’m going to be coming up to the end of this road. I’m [01:36:25] going to hit the a406 where the traffic lights are at the end of that long road. I said, I’m driving through that and I’m going to [01:36:30] lose this guy in Walthamstow. This is me. I better not get any tickets from you guys because [01:36:35] this is me. And then I got to the lab. He went, he disappeared somewhere, and [01:36:40] I said, oh, I thought only I could get into a situation where I’ve just got.

Payman Langroudi: No idea what. [01:36:45]

Kash Qureshi: That was. I don’t know, maybe he wanted to hijack me, I thought, but not today. It’s a bit like the whole [01:36:50] thing. When I eventually got knifed, I got to a point in life where I’ve said, [01:36:55] I’m not going to let these things happen to me like it did back in the day. And I thought, nah, he ain’t going to happen. Sorry. [01:37:00]

Payman Langroudi: It’s the thing you say about the cops in the suburbs. The cops aren’t busy enough, right? [01:37:05] So I used to get stopped quite a lot in Kent when I was living there. A nice car. [01:37:10] Yeah. And once, once I ended up going, like, left, left, [01:37:15] left, left, left. He kept on following me. So then I got to a big roundabout and just kept going. Round and round and [01:37:20] round and round.

Kash Qureshi: He’s on drugs or something.

Payman Langroudi: Because [01:37:25] it was just like because they kept following. And then eventually he [01:37:30] stopped me. So why were you going round? Round and round the [01:37:35] roundabout. And I said, why were you. And he let me off. And, um, [01:37:40] the third guest. The third.

Kash Qureshi: Guest. Um, I haven’t really [01:37:45] had time to actually think about it, to be perfectly honest with you.

Payman Langroudi: Um, would you not want your dad to [01:37:50] find out what he was like?

Kash Qureshi: I’ve spoken to him a few times. Um, [01:37:55] we couldn’t really communicate that well because, um, he’s Pakistani, [01:38:00] so he speaks Urdu, I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Was he over there? Yeah. Oh, I.

Kash Qureshi: See. [01:38:05]

Payman Langroudi: So I.

Kash Qureshi: Don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Speak.

Kash Qureshi: The language I used to when I was really young. So communicating is very difficult. I [01:38:10] mean, it’s more like a yes no nod. Nod your head, maybe.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: Here’s [01:38:15] where he is. Don’t get me wrong. Uh, I probably would have liked to, but I don’t [01:38:20] really know. No, I don’t think I would. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Fair enough.

Kash Qureshi: Just, you know, I’ve. [01:38:25] I’ve gone through life with so, so much without life now. My mum’s happily married [01:38:30] now. Um. I’m married. I’ve got my kid now, so you know.

Payman Langroudi: How old’s your [01:38:35] kid?

Kash Qureshi: Uh, two going on three, man. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult time. The beginning is difficult.

Kash Qureshi: She was premature. [01:38:40] 25 weeks.

Payman Langroudi: She was? Yeah, she was.

Kash Qureshi: The size of my hand.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness.

Kash Qureshi: So, yeah, that was [01:38:45] a tough time. Back and forth through Whitechapel, Royal London. Like a different [01:38:50] country when you go Whitechapel. Yeah. Uh going Royal London.

Payman Langroudi: That market. Right.

Kash Qureshi: Oh, yeah. Yeah. You literally [01:38:55] come out the station. You’re in the market. Like people don’t care. I know, rock up anywhere. And it’s not just selling you [01:39:00] things, but yeah, as I said, I mean, hopefully if one things people can get from this podcast [01:39:05] is they can see that, you know, the resilience is there to just keep on going. Um, [01:39:10] you know, you got to keep on going in business and everything. And I’ve always been like with the lab side, with the clinic side, [01:39:15] just keep it going and keep it moving and make time. I like people who can make [01:39:20] time for me, and I make time for them. Like, man, you know, I always make time for man Rena. And [01:39:25] I hope she thinks the same and she can make time for me. I mean, I honestly thought she was going to be. [01:39:30]

Payman Langroudi: The.

Kash Qureshi: Answer man. She picked up. She picked up, man. Good on you, man. Rena. You picked up for me. [01:39:35]

Payman Langroudi: Final question. Three pieces of advice on your [01:39:40] deathbed for your loved ones.

Kash Qureshi: Uh. Always [01:39:45] be nice to people on the way up, because you might just see him on [01:39:50] the way down. Um, time is the most valuable [01:39:55] asset. Um, and health. The [01:40:00] the two things I always am thankful for every day. Um, in my part of my technique [01:40:05] and my affirmations, I’m always thankful for, um, my time first and my health. [01:40:10] Because without time, I’ve got no health. And I know I think it’s just [01:40:15] a street mentality where you think that you’re not going to live past 23? I’m always curious. I. Time [01:40:20] is everything to me. I’m always very headstrong on time. You know, I allocate certain times [01:40:25] to gym. You know, I live that that way. And I think I’ve always just been like that growing up and everything. [01:40:30] But time always value time and make time for people.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. I’ve [01:40:35] really enjoyed.

Kash Qureshi: Have you had any have you got any advice?

Payman Langroudi: Advice for life? [01:40:40]

Kash Qureshi: For life? Yeah. In general, you know, I haven’t had a dad, so, you know. Yeah. [01:40:45]

Payman Langroudi: I think the one thing I mean, I’m interested in the notion of, [01:40:50] uh, children. Right. What do you want for your child? Yeah. And you can’t [01:40:55] overdo it. You can’t say, oh, I want my child to be a surgeon. Surgeon or [01:41:00] something. It’s ridiculous. Well, the things I’ve come down to is I want my child to be confident. [01:41:05] Yeah, yeah. Confidence is quite important in.

Kash Qureshi: Something.

Payman Langroudi: Right? It’s certainly not arrogant. [01:41:10] I mean, the opposite of arrogant. Yeah. Confident. And I want my child to be kind, [01:41:15] you know. And I’ve really come down to those two things, you know, trying [01:41:20] with, with my.

Kash Qureshi: Feelings and kindness.

Payman Langroudi: Confidence and kindness. Those two things are really, really key. [01:41:25] Um, the other thing I’d say is around work. I mean, look at someone [01:41:30] like you. You’re so driven. You know that. You know it’s within you. And I like [01:41:35] my kid to want to change the world somehow. [01:41:40] You know, like, make, you know, the famous, um, Steve Jobs thing make a dent in the world. [01:41:45] Yeah. To want to make a dent in the world. But by the way, someone might not want [01:41:50] to do that, right? Someone might want to do a 9 to 5 and surf and bring up a family.

Kash Qureshi: There’s nothing wrong with that.

Payman Langroudi: Nothing wrong [01:41:55] with that either. But, but but for me, that’s my particular bias that I want them to want to make a difference. [01:42:00] Mhm.

Kash Qureshi: I agree with you. I think there’s nothing wrong with that. I think that’s a very sound platform [01:42:05] to establish with um you’re never going to know what your kids are going to end up becoming. I don’t know what my daughter’s going to [01:42:10] be.

Payman Langroudi: And you and your mum had no idea you were going to be a dental technician.

Kash Qureshi: Nah, man, she didn’t know. [01:42:15] But then again, in the Asian community, you get usually pushed into doctors or dentistry. I [01:42:20] mean, obviously I went into a total different there’s not many Asian people in dental technology, I don’t think. Yeah, there’s not [01:42:25] that many. There’s probably a handful I can probably name on my hand. Yeah. Literally one. There’s there’s [01:42:30] quite a few others that I’ve seen now, but there’s not that many of us. And I think it’s because [01:42:35] we’ve gone more into, well, not me personally. They’ve gone more into.

Payman Langroudi: Professions.

Kash Qureshi: Into dentistry. [01:42:40] I think that’s why. Another thing why I relate with a lot of dentists is because I’m Asian. Yeah, [01:42:45] I am Asian. In case anyone’s wondering, I am Asian. They they always ask me. They don’t think I am. I [01:42:50] don’t think I’m lying. And then they ask me, what is your mum and dad? But seriously, where do you come from? That sort of [01:42:55] thing. But I can relate to him on that basis. I can relate to him on the basis that [01:43:00] I’m in that sort of age group, and I can relate to the younger guys as well. I don’t know if it’s because of the [01:43:05] tattoos and stuff, but I can relate to people because in clinical school they used to frown on that. Now [01:43:10] it’s quite common to have tattoos.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Now I think your superpower. Is that right? No, [01:43:15] sorry.

Kash Qureshi: You can say, you know what? This has got me into places.

Payman Langroudi: You can talk [01:43:20] to people you can relate to people.

Kash Qureshi: I think it’s being down to earth.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve really enjoyed it, man. [01:43:25] Yeah. Me too. Thanks a lot for coming.

Kash Qureshi: No thank you man.

[VOICE]: This is [01:43:30] Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [01:43:35] leaders in dentistry. Your [01:43:40] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:43:45] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge [01:43:50] thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and [01:43:55] what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value [01:44:00] out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend [01:44:05] who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t [01:44:10] forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlightened. Recently, one of the groups did a survey to understand [00:00:05] what is the most profitable thing that they can do in their dental chair. And listen came in as a second most profitable [00:00:10] thing, coming in at £900 per hour. So if your dental chair is busy, [00:00:15] it should be busy doing things like enlighten. Come and join us on Enlighten Online Training to [00:00:20] fully understand how to do the process, how to talk to patients about it. Deliver brilliant results [00:00:25] every time. Enlighten online training.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:00:40] in dentistry. Your hosts [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great [00:00:50] pleasure to welcome Shamika onto the podcast. Shamika is a [00:00:55] long time friend. We were talking about it maybe 17 or 18 years ago. We met. You you’re already a practice [00:01:00] owner there and always, always looking for excellence in practice. But for me, someone who [00:01:05] on the dental circuit is kind of a fun loving criminal. No, I wouldn’t [00:01:10] say criminal. Not criminal. No, it’s not.

Shameek Popat: A bad description.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. No joking. I’m [00:01:15] joking. No fun loving dude. You know, like you’re looking to turn [00:01:20] the experience of dentistry into more of a fun experience. And that definitely resonates [00:01:25] with me of late. You sold your practice and now products. [00:01:30] So tooth Angel, which is a eco friendly luxury [00:01:35] oral care brand. Luxury? Would you say premium?

Shameek Popat: Definitely luxury. Premium for sure. [00:01:40]

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know. We were talking about this. You know, enlightened used to be premium. It’s turned into luxuries and prices [00:01:45] of, um, luxury luxury oral care brand. And just [00:01:50] lately, disruptive smile smiles, which [00:01:55] is more education? We don’t know. Really. You’re going to tell me more about it?

Shameek Popat: Definitely. Definitely. Listen, [00:02:00] first of all, thank you so much for having me. It’s been a long time coming.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Thank you so [00:02:05] much for turning up finally. Right.

Shameek Popat: Look, I always told you that I wanted to have [00:02:10] things to talk about.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve always got things.

Shameek Popat: To talk [00:02:15] about, things to talk about. It was really funny, actually. Um, we’re totally going to go off topic now straight away. I [00:02:20] just mean to Tuscany and somehow, um, in the car journey on [00:02:25] the way back, obviously we’re talking I had the family with me and stuff, and I don’t I don’t know how [00:02:30] the conversation started, but we were talking about if you had to [00:02:35] lose one of your senses between speech, hearing or sight, [00:02:40] which one would you be willing to give up? And you have to choose one. [00:02:45] And it was a really fascinating conversation because all of us, for [00:02:50] us, sight was really important. You know, the world is a beautiful place and you want [00:02:55] to be able to see what’s going on.

Payman Langroudi: Do you mean completely give up? Like you’re blind [00:03:00] or completely deaf? Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting.

Shameek Popat: So it was really [00:03:05] interesting. And actually, majority of the car went deaf and I said [00:03:10] speech actually, because I want to see and I want to hear and the rest of the family saying [00:03:15] that there’s no way you’ll be able to cope with that. You have always something to say. [00:03:20] Yeah. You always want to speak. Yeah. You always want to have an opinion. Yeah. So that was [00:03:25] quite fascinating to see what they thought and what I think. Yeah. [00:03:30] Actually, I don’t know if you actually have heard of Charles Bukowski. [00:03:35] He’s a warrior poet.

Payman Langroudi: He’s a warrior poet, [00:03:40] poet.

Shameek Popat: And he said, can you remember who you were [00:03:45] before the world told you what you should be?

Payman Langroudi: As [00:03:50] in those childhood hopes and dreams?

Shameek Popat: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s keeping the keeping [00:03:55] that alive, which I feel like you do. Yeah, keeping that alive is a talent [00:04:00] in itself. Because the world has a way of squeezing that stuff out of you. [00:04:05] No.

Shameek Popat: Absolutely. But you, I mean, surely.

Shameek Popat: Payman you yourself as well. You’re probably a totally [00:04:10] different person as a family man. Yeah. And as the CEO of enlightened and [00:04:15] how you portray yourself with enlighten, surely that must be two different things, right?

Payman Langroudi: Although I don’t [00:04:20] I’m not the CEO of Sanchez. Sanchez.

Shameek Popat: That’s right. Right. As you know, part of enlighten. [00:04:25] Yeah. One of the main guys I’d lighten and.

Payman Langroudi: All the different [00:04:30] roles in life, right? Because, I mean, we were discussing this yesterday with the team, right? That [00:04:35] are they can they put the same content on Instagram as they put on TikTok? And [00:04:40] I’m saying absolutely not. Because what would be the point if there be two different. [00:04:45] There are times where I want to be on TikTok that other times I want to be on Instagram and I’m a different [00:04:50] it’s a different room altogether. But you’re right. In an interview for [00:04:55] a job, you’re this one person in the aether on a table. This other person. There’s [00:05:00] many facets of of your your life. Um, which one are [00:05:05] you most comfortable in?

Shameek Popat: You know what? My own skin. My own skin has always been fun [00:05:10] loving, you know, trying to get the joy out of life. I’ve always been a half glass full person. [00:05:15] Um, and, you know, that was a conversation that I also had with the kids [00:05:20] and stuff and everything. And I’ve always, like always said to people fit into the room [00:05:25] you put in. So I’ve always said that I’ll, you know, I can go to a festival, [00:05:30] sleep in a tent, go to the horrible lose there and [00:05:35] survive, or.

Payman Langroudi: You know, with Prince Albert of Monaco.

Shameek Popat: Or. Yes, put me in [00:05:40] a penguin suit, put me in a high end dinner and stuff and be able to know what forks, how [00:05:45] to eat, how to drink, how to taste wine. You got to you got to [00:05:50] learn it all And find out what resonates with you, what [00:05:55] you feel the most comfortable with. And that’s what you will end up doing the most of. But [00:06:00] be there to experience it all. Do not, do not just [00:06:05] something. Oh, that’s not for me. Put yourself out for us. Put your passion. Infuse your passion [00:06:10] into everything that you do.

Payman Langroudi: You know, dude, because I recognise myself in you. I [00:06:15] want to ask you whether you’re struggling with the same thing as I’m struggling with [00:06:20] on with respect to what you just said, insomuch as I had a long [00:06:25] 45 minute conversation with ChatGPT about this before it told me my my premium [00:06:30] time is up. Yeah, it was, it was being wonderful and then suddenly became all dumb and agreed with everything [00:06:35] I said. But this question I asked, the question that that I’m having trouble or [00:06:40] had have had trouble in my life differentiating between pleasure and [00:06:45] fun and joy and happiness and contentment, You [00:06:50] know. And one of those five is six is totally different to the others. Contentment. [00:06:55] Yeah, it’s totally different to the others. Yeah, but I’ve had trouble separating those [00:07:00] in my life.

Shameek Popat: Is that but that’s probably [00:07:05] a personal thing because they can all interact. Right. One can lead to another. [00:07:10]

Payman Langroudi: That’s what you said as well.

Shameek Popat: Oh, there you are. [00:07:15]

Payman Langroudi: Probably I started off by saying it’s very common, very common problem.

Shameek Popat: I can definitely [00:07:20] see that.

Payman Langroudi: But the contentment piece, do you see it as. Do you see it in opposition [00:07:25] to pleasure? Enjoy the pleasure particularly. Yeah, that’s that’s the question. I really struggle [00:07:30] with you because you think they’re all in the same ballpark. Yeah, but I see those two in total [00:07:35] tension.

Shameek Popat: Okay. So it begs the question, what is contentment to you? So [00:07:40] that’s the question you need to ask yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Correct.

Shameek Popat: And then you find the answer. What [00:07:45] is contentment to.

Payman Langroudi: You not wanting Doing something right in a way. Yeah. Being [00:07:50] happy with what you have. Whereas pleasure to.

Shameek Popat: So actually something I’m reading [00:07:55] at the moment as well and stuff and I think as dentists and the [00:08:00] way we are, we aim for perfection and I know I do. All right. [00:08:05] It always there’s a word in Gujarati that’s called [00:08:10] jalsa which means it will do. And I’ve always hated that word. You [00:08:15] know, when someone says it’ll do a good enough. And it really irritates me when [00:08:20] someone says that and stuff and it.

Payman Langroudi: Says I’m just like that. So I’ve learned that from saying, man, [00:08:25] I, I was that cat. I was that if it came to a product, a design, [00:08:30] a communication, a higher, a fire good enough was where [00:08:35] I was at. And science used to just you could see him just shiver. He [00:08:40] wants the best. Yeah. And positioning wise. Right. You know, you’re positioning this product [00:08:45] as luxury if you’re your positioning at the top end good enough isn’t even part of the conversation. [00:08:50]

Shameek Popat: No, no it’s not. But what this told me, actually. [00:08:55] And then sometimes because you beat yourself about it, right? And it really creates a lot of strife and hard work [00:09:00] and sleepless nights and stuff and everything. But what what this was saying and, you [00:09:05] know, something that has a message that we should all take, um, is there is beauty in [00:09:10] imperfection. Yeah. And the story was, um, it was a really [00:09:15] good story. So hang on. Let me let me let me recall it. It was a young Japanese [00:09:20] warrior who wanted to learn the tea making ceremony. And, you know, the tea making ceremony. Japanese tea making [00:09:25] ceremony is perfection itself, right? Everything has to be really, really perfect. So [00:09:30] the teacher said, before I teach you, I want you to clean that garden. Clean [00:09:35] the garden. So it’s beautiful. So he spends ages making it absolutely [00:09:40] perfect. Cleaned it, raked it, made it look perfect. Came back and looked at it, and [00:09:45] it was it’s pristine. But something was missing. She went to [00:09:50] the cherry tree, shook it, and a few blossoms fell down. And then he came back and he looked at [00:09:55] it and it was beautiful. So there is beauty in perfection. [00:10:00] And apparently from that the whole ceremony changed a little bit so that the tea ceremony had a little [00:10:05] bit of imperfection in it, just so that people can see the beauty in it. And I thought, [00:10:10] oh, actually, I like that. Maybe, maybe we don’t need to beat ourselves [00:10:15] up too much. No no no no no. And I do that, you know, constantly.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, [00:10:20] but the Japanese, they’ve got that broken vase put back together with the gold bits [00:10:25] and the cracks. Yeah, whatever that was called, but as well. Right. That’s the same idea.

Shameek Popat: Same idea? Yeah, [00:10:30] yeah, the whole concept that the.

Payman Langroudi: Other thing, the other thing that I sometimes struggle with is struggle is a [00:10:35] funny word, but I struggle with is whatever the idea is, whatever the thing is, [00:10:40] whatever I’m assessing, I go, is that good or is that bad? Not [00:10:45] making enough space for. It’s both good and bad. And I don’t know if you’ve been to Bali. They’ve got [00:10:50] their ceremony. Where at one side they’ve got the good dancer, then [00:10:55] they’ve got the bad, you know, the devil, the god, the devil. And at the end it’s always a draw. It’s always [00:11:00] a draw between those two.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Know, but I’m saying when you look at something. Oh, this, this [00:11:05] move you made into toothpaste, is that a good move or is that a bad move? It’s limiting to [00:11:10] put it into one of those two categories. Yeah, it’s good in many ways. It’s bad in some ways. Right. [00:11:15]

Shameek Popat: You know, with with this um, [00:11:20] let’s talk about tooth angels. Let’s talk about tooth. Yeah. We’ll talk about tooth angel.

Payman Langroudi: Over. [00:11:25] Pass over. Well while we talk about it, Passover.

Shameek Popat: Where you.

Payman Langroudi: Are [00:11:30] now, I wanted to do the unboxing.

Shameek Popat: Myself. Oh, sorry, my friend.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s see. Uh, I wanted to do the on books and [00:11:35] myself. Go ahead.

Shameek Popat: Explain.

Shameek Popat: So tooth Angel is.

Shameek Popat: A health.

Shameek Popat: Led, planet positive [00:11:40] concept. Um, you know, it’s it’s sort of obvious. [00:11:45] I’ll give you the backstory.

Shameek Popat: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: So it’s it’s a luxury [00:11:50] oral hygiene brand with sustainability at its heart, because self-care [00:11:55] should not just benefit us, but should benefit the planet as well. You know, um, [00:12:00] there’s a guy called Robert Shaw who said that the worst [00:12:05] thing that you can do in the world is expect others to make the [00:12:10] planet good. So if you don’t step in and do something yourself, even if it’s a little, [00:12:15] you’re not going to have a world or a planet to live in. And during [00:12:20] Covid, I was watching Suspiciously plastic Ocean. I [00:12:25] was literally shocked at the amount of plastic in our oceans. And I don’t know if [00:12:30] you know these facts and stuff. Like just in the US alone, 2 billion toothbrushes are thrown away [00:12:35] in the world is an approx 23 billion toothbrushes [00:12:40] being thrown away every year, and only 91% or 91% [00:12:45] of it is not recycled. Only 9% is recycled. So can you just imagine? The rest go into [00:12:50] landfills and the environment. I thought as dentists we surely we we [00:12:55] have to do something about it. So I went I went on a big research mission. [00:13:00] Um, I read papers, I went travelling, and, you [00:13:05] know, obviously, if you think what jumps out is, oh, bamboo [00:13:10] toothbrushes. Right. Okay. They must be surely good. Yeah, but bamboo toothbrushes [00:13:15] are not the answer. Why? Bamboo is made of wood, sugar and starch absorbs [00:13:20] moisture. Moulds. Who wants to put a mouldy piece of wood in their [00:13:25] mouth because the bristles are nowhere as good? Plus they come away from faraway countries.

Shameek Popat: So just [00:13:30] the carbon emissions itself negate anything good that they bring to it. Plus, I don’t know if you’re [00:13:35] aware of it. With bamboo toothbrushes, you’re actually supposed to snap the head off, throw [00:13:40] the handle in the seat and the head in your normal waist. How many people do that? And if [00:13:45] you don’t do that, the whole thing is a waste. So if there’s one message that comes out, if you’re using bamboo toothbrushes, [00:13:50] snap the head off, put the handle in the composite and head can go into [00:13:55] your waist. But it was little things like that and it just didn’t. And plus [00:14:00] people go through loads of bamboo toothbrushes as well. So they need a lot more bamboo toothbrushes [00:14:05] as well. So again that negates any use to us. But don’t get me wrong. Anything [00:14:10] that stops plastic getting into our oceans and landfills I’m for. So I’m not against it, but [00:14:15] it did not resonate with me. The other thing like obviously [00:14:20] toothpaste, toothpaste tubes, toothpaste tablets. Love the idea, the concept [00:14:25] are good, friends are doing it and I really support them. But you know, I like toothpaste. A lot [00:14:30] of friends and people that I talk to like toothpaste. I wanted to do something with toothpaste, but I wanted to be clever about it. So [00:14:35] which is why I went travelling. I went Switzerland, Germany, Italy, manufacturers [00:14:40] to come up with the solutions that we have. So I see you handling [00:14:45] the toothbrush here. If you pass that to me.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about [00:14:50] when you say toothpaste gone.

Shameek Popat: Let’s do this one and then I can talk about, uh, why [00:14:55] do we throw a toothbrush away?

Payman Langroudi: Because the bristles are.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. [00:15:00] The bristles wear away. They become ineffective. Okay. But you throw the whole thing away. Mhm. All right. [00:15:05] So it’s a huge waste with this.

Payman Langroudi: You actually pop out the bristles. [00:15:10]

Shameek Popat: Yeah. You keep the handle for life clean.

Payman Langroudi: It keeps a plastic handle. But you only.

Shameek Popat: Keep recyclable plastic. [00:15:15] This is recyclable as well. This we actually also have a tooth angel zero waste box. [00:15:20] And we recycle everything that we provide with TerraCycle as well. So practices [00:15:25] can have their teeth. Angel zero waste box. So that’s a 92% [00:15:30] plastic saving in itself. Okay. That’s a huge, huge saving. [00:15:35] Plus these bristles. They’re carbon activated so they’re antibacterial [00:15:40] anti odour humidity regulating quick drying and soft. You [00:15:45] know John Coats. Yeah John called it one of his two favourite toothbrushes. [00:15:50] So that was really. And the floss as well. His favourite. One of his favourite floss.

Payman Langroudi: Was [00:15:55] his other favourite.

Shameek Popat: Uh, it’s called a Nimbus. What’s that? It’s a Mexican. No [00:16:00] no, no, it’s it’s plastic. But the bristles. He loves the bristles because they’re soft. Okay. [00:16:05] And I don’t know. So obviously the question comes, [00:16:10] you know, is. But it’s still plastic. Right. Now [00:16:15] here’s where the greenwashing stops. So in September 2020, uh, Prof. [00:16:20] Ashley from UCL and Brett Dewan from Trinity College Dublin did a series of papers in the British [00:16:25] Dental Journal, and they did a cradle to grave assessment of every toothbrush [00:16:30] out there. So normal plastic manuals, bamboo, electric [00:16:35] and plastic with replaceable heads. And they found plastic with little head. The best for the [00:16:40] environment and associated human health by far. So suddenly we had research behind [00:16:45] it.

Payman Langroudi: Did it already exist?

Shameek Popat: You know what? This is the funny thing. So we we did [00:16:50] the idea and stuff and everything and stuff. And then I was doing research for the pitch [00:16:55] deck. Yeah. And the papers came up. Yeah. And I was like this. It was [00:17:00] meant to be. I actually didn’t know.

Payman Langroudi: So the papers kept. So it did already [00:17:05] exist.

Shameek Popat: So the papers were already there? I just didn’t know I hadn’t read them. I found them afterwards, and I was like, [00:17:10] oh, my God, I just landed.

Payman Langroudi: It came to the right conclusion.

Shameek Popat: Conclusion as well. So. Yeah. See? Great minds think [00:17:15] alike.

Payman Langroudi: Look, what I’m interested in doing here is positioning. Yeah. [00:17:20] Positioning. So we talked about positioning before. Is it luxury. Is it premium. Is [00:17:25] it. And you said it’s luxury. Yeah. But positioning now. Now we’re talking positioning.

Shameek Popat: Give me your [00:17:30] definition. Difference between luxury and premium.

Payman Langroudi: Luxury is one of our premium. [00:17:35] So so premium might be Marks and Spencer, luxury might be Harrods food. For [00:17:40] the sake of the argument, I don’t know. Uh, what’s it called? Um, the Amazon [00:17:45] one. Um, the organic store anyway. [00:17:50]

Shameek Popat: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Um, now, [00:17:55] when I say positioning, that’s that’s price and quality positioning. But now [00:18:00] we’re, we’re talking about, you know, brand values. Right. And, and you’re seeing the brand values [00:18:05] here as well as the, you know, research you’re putting into each product is the green part [00:18:10] of it, right? I find that though like [00:18:15] it’s, it’s it’s probably a temporary win [00:18:20] if it’s a win I mean let’s, let’s say it’s a win for the sake of the argument. Yeah. Because it’s not it’s [00:18:25] very expensive recycling everything. And you know, it’s, it’s a, it’s a pain in the ass being this [00:18:30] this this company. Right? So let’s imagine it’s a win and more people [00:18:35] will buy buy it because of it. Yeah, I feel like it’s a contemporary one because everyone [00:18:40] will have to become green soon. Yeah. [00:18:45] And then you can say, oh, we’re even more green than the next one. But you know what I mean? The moment Colgate [00:18:50] has to legally has to do these things, they will. Right. They’ll [00:18:55] have, you know. So I’m not saying it’s a problem. You know, the more awareness [00:19:00] this this subject gets, the better.

Shameek Popat: So you’re absolutely correct. So, um, [00:19:05] what I should make clear, actually, is we’re clinicians. So [00:19:10] whatever we were going to make was always going to be the best for you as well. Okay. [00:19:15] So our our priority number one is that these are good products [00:19:20] that are good for you with the research and backing behind it. The sustainability [00:19:25] is the kicker. Yeah okay. So it’s the secondary part to it. But I [00:19:30] didn’t. I didn’t want to make, um, products that [00:19:35] are not going to be good for the environment as well. Oh, sure. Sure. Right. Um, [00:19:40] because you’re planning.

Payman Langroudi: On electric as well. Must have. Do.

Shameek Popat: Not [00:19:45] yet. Uh, never say never. You know, but not yet. The [00:19:50] reason being, again, electric is more than five times worse [00:19:55] than what we’ve created for the environment. Um, and, you know, there’s this whole.

Payman Langroudi: Do [00:20:00] you not use an electric toothbrush?

Shameek Popat: No, no, I’ve always used manual.

Payman Langroudi: That’s why it’s [00:20:05] always. Always.

[BOTH]: Yeah. Wow.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. I’ve used electric when I’ve had samples and stuff and everything. Again, [00:20:10] I don’t know whether it’s a control freak or whatever, but. Oh. So I’ll tell you why. I created [00:20:15] one of the reasons I also we created this and stuff as well, is I wanted a brush that [00:20:20] felt like a spy in your mouth. When you brushed, it felt like, oh, that feels good. I want [00:20:25] it to bring that love back to brushing and flossing. I didn’t want to make it a chore. [00:20:30] Which is what most people see it as I want it to do. Oh, actually, you know what? I’m looking forward to brushing with [00:20:35] this. I’m looking forward to flossing with this floss because my hands are going to smell really nice afterwards. [00:20:40] My breath is going to smell good. My teeth are going.

Payman Langroudi: To feel good. I’ve long thought flavour in [00:20:45] toothpaste is is like, why can’t toothpaste be absolutely delicious? [00:20:50] Like like, look forward to it. Delicious.

Shameek Popat: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Why not? Like. And I’ve [00:20:55] always wanted to do that product. Yeah, but Santa has stopped me. And he’s probably been right. Because [00:21:00] you have to do SKUs. Then you have to do lots. Excuse me, but I don’t know if you’ve tried the dark wood and Tanner [00:21:05] toothpaste.

Shameek Popat: No, I haven’t, actually. I didn’t even know they had water.

Payman Langroudi: It’s second best toothpaste [00:21:10] in the world after.

Shameek Popat: Enlightened, obviously, but that’s what you haven’t tried. The tooth angel.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:21:15] tasty that the tastiest. Yeah, because they’ve got four different flavours. Yeah, I [00:21:20] bought all four and I used to choose, you know. Yeah. Brazilian lime [00:21:25] one day and then choose Sicilian lemon another day. But the execution [00:21:30] was brilliant. It wasn’t just the idea. Yeah, plenty of people have had the idea. Yeah, but the execution [00:21:35] of the taste. Because one thing about taste with toothpaste is there has to be an element [00:21:40] of mint in it. Whatever the flavour is like, if your flavour is cinnamon, it has to be cinnamon. [00:21:45]

Shameek Popat: Exactly. So that’s what we’ve done. We’ve actually created.

Payman Langroudi: What flavours [00:21:50] are mint?

Shameek Popat: Mint? Yeah, yeah. It’s English, white milk.

Payman Langroudi: English, English.

Shameek Popat: English wild mint. Yes, [00:21:55] absolutely. I thought you were the one.

Payman Langroudi: I thought was going to give me something.

Shameek Popat: Else. No no no no. Oh, [00:22:00] I should have bought the cinnamon one.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

[BOTH]: Have you got one? Yeah.

Shameek Popat: I’ll send it to you.

[BOTH]: I’ll send it to you.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:22:05] So did you not worry about cinnamon being, um, sensitive people? Being, uh, allergic to cinnamon? [00:22:10] Because I wanted to do that, and, and and the the manufacturer said be [00:22:15] careful.

Shameek Popat: You know. So here’s the funny story. The whole thing started [00:22:20] is because I wanted a cinnamon floss.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Shameek Popat: You know, I whenever I go to the [00:22:25] US, I used to pick up the big Red and the Cinnamon Man. I love [00:22:30] cinnamon stuff, so I know I wanted to do things that [00:22:35] you want. I like that I can put my heart and soul into it. [00:22:40] Um.

Payman Langroudi: Body shop used to do the mint toothpaste. Delicious, [00:22:45] delicious toothpaste.

Shameek Popat: And, you know, and plus, I think, you know, there’s a whole market which, [00:22:50] actually, we still need to go for the whole Indian market. The Asian market. They love cinnamon, [00:22:55] right? Um, which is an unexplored market, really. [00:23:00] So we, you know, we want to target that as well. And then the toothpaste we created [00:23:05] is, is lovely. So I actually I’ll have a mint full morning and then cinnamon [00:23:10] for the night.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. So am PM for me was would have been like much more [00:23:15] around essential oils. Um like one like the story. The brand story [00:23:20] would have been oh, this camomile essential oil puts people to sleep Like. Like a like an angel. [00:23:25] And then. So you’d have that in the evening and then in the morning, it’d be like a grapefruit. Essential oil [00:23:30] has been shown to make your brain acuity better and then wake up with, with, with with grapefruit. [00:23:35] I just think flavours and toothpaste are really. But I’ll tell you another brilliant [00:23:40] execution. High smiles, flavoured ones. Brilliant [00:23:45] execution. Brilliant execution. Yeah. We love, we love to hate. Hi Somalia.

Shameek Popat: Only [00:23:50] because they did a little gimmicky stuff and stuff and then it sort of shadowed what else they’ve done [00:23:55] actually execute.

Payman Langroudi: You have to think that. What is the product. Right. The purple toothpaste. [00:24:00] They weren’t the first to do purple toothpaste. Purple toothpaste was around for years before. [00:24:05] But the execution, the way the thing clicks, the way you put it on, the taste [00:24:10] of it, you know, the execution was strong. You can’t doubt that.

Shameek Popat: Taste [00:24:15] was okay. I have tried them and stuff, but I like them.

Payman Langroudi: I tried that, but [00:24:20] the thing is, dude, do you agree it doesn’t take a dentist to make these things?

[BOTH]: Ah, okay. [00:24:25]

Shameek Popat: So that was my other thing, right? And that was my other bugbear.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: That [00:24:30] if you look in the market just now.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: Most of the toothpaste that is out there [00:24:35] is actually made by advertisers, marketers or pharmaceutical companies of it. They’re not made [00:24:40] by dentists, hygienists, periodontist who are working in the coalface, [00:24:45] who know better, who know what they want for their patients. Which [00:24:50] is why I got a team together with dentists, hygienists, therapists, periodontist. [00:24:55] You know, products don’t make a great business. People [00:25:00] do. Right? Which is why you surround yourself with some of the best people around. [00:25:05] Right. Your team is just fantastic. Thank you. Um, you know, you have a lovely team, [00:25:10] you know, not just to tell you that, but you’ve been an inspiration to everything I’ve done as well. [00:25:15] Uh, you know, the tooth angel, the smiles. I’m literally like. I think I’m just [00:25:20] following in your footsteps in a way.

[BOTH]: Be careful.

Shameek Popat: I [00:25:25] am so, you know. You know, I always just thought, you know, these these boys have done so well. [00:25:30] Um. And you guys are someone, you know, people to look up to.

Payman Langroudi: That’s nice, man. That’s [00:25:35] nice to say that, but my question. Is [00:25:40] a dentist best place to make these products? So, dude, I’m a dentist. I’m a dentist, [00:25:45] and I’ve done toothpaste, so I my answer is yes. Yeah, but execution [00:25:50] wise not necessarily man. Yeah. Not necessarily. [00:25:55] No, it doesn’t matter, dude. It’s cool that the fact that that that that’s my position [00:26:00] doesn’t mean that you’ve done an incorrect thing. My point on this idea of yours [00:26:05] is it has to be a direct consumer. Has to be has to be a direct consumer. The volume just [00:26:10] is never going to be enough. Okay. You could become the top supplier to dentists [00:26:15] and wherever has to be a direct consumer approach to it. Yeah.

Shameek Popat: So [00:26:20] I don’t disagree with you there. It has to be. So the question will be yeah, you just [00:26:25] got to hire the right people to get it out there. Yeah. And yeah, unfortunately for that you need some [00:26:30] decent finance backing as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So now this is where I was really going [00:26:35] to go with this question. Right. Let’s say you’ve you’ve owned a practice. Yeah. [00:26:40] And there’s people out there thinking I fancy doing toothpaste. Yeah. In fact, every [00:26:45] single dentist had that dream once. Once in a while. Right.

[BOTH]: Now I’ve [00:26:50] got it.

Shameek Popat: There’s a difference between ideas, dreams [00:26:55] and execution.

[BOTH]: Oh.

Shameek Popat: Huge. Right. The amount [00:27:00] of ideas.

[BOTH]: Ideas are.

Payman Langroudi: Cheap.

[BOTH]: Ideas are cheap.

Shameek Popat: They’re cheap. Right. Do you remember the [00:27:05] amount of times we’ve met at conferences? And somebody talked about some ideas and traded [00:27:10] ideas and stuff, and it’s been great talking about it and dreaming about it and stuff. But [00:27:15] then to put it into.

Payman Langroudi: Well or although although I used to say I used to. I used [00:27:20] to make my kids repeat that to my to me in the when they were five and three, [00:27:25] six and four. You know, I constantly used to make them repeat that phrase to me, the ideas. [00:27:30] Nothing without execution. But the world has just gone upside down. Yeah, [00:27:35] I yeah, it’s all about the idea now. It’s all about the idea. And all [00:27:40] those cats you used to sit back and say, I think I know a great idea to do this. Suddenly those guys [00:27:45] are in a totally different situation because execution is becoming much easier, [00:27:50] much, much, much easier. And it’s a real shift around where now, like, [00:27:55] if you could come up with an amazing story about whatever you’re [00:28:00] into, like in the Star Wars meets or whatever. Yeah. If this story is amazing. Yeah, [00:28:05] you could make that movie The day after tomorrow. Like pay some subscription to Sora or whatever. You [00:28:10] know, you could you could get it done for less than the price of a 10,000 tube of toothpaste. Yeah. [00:28:15] So ideas become everything. That’s wonderful. It’s a wonderful [00:28:20] switch.

Shameek Popat: It’s going to be exciting. Uh, with AI and obviously, you know, [00:28:25] we all use ChatGPT. And it’s been it’s been it’s been a fantastic tool. Um, I have to admit, but [00:28:30] I do still think what AI lacks [00:28:35] is connectivity. Relationship, emotion. [00:28:40] All of that is not there yet. Yeah. [00:28:45] And I think that’s why we’re still going to be, uh, [00:28:50] viable or we’re still going to be relevant. Because humans. [00:28:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. Look, man, I mean, I’m sure our grandparents [00:29:00] were sitting there when the first TV came out and said, just change everything. And it did. [00:29:05] It did changed everything. But humans still wanted to break bread. You know, there [00:29:10] are some there are some basics, right? That will never [00:29:15] change.

Shameek Popat: No. But soon, as soon as they create AI with emotion, we’re [00:29:20] screwed.

Payman Langroudi: I look like I said to my son, I wouldn’t be surprised if his [00:29:25] his son was in love with an AI. With an with a robot. Yeah, like. Well, you [00:29:30] know, it could easily happen.

Shameek Popat: It can easily.

Payman Langroudi: Happen. Yeah.

Shameek Popat: Like I would say, as soon as emotion comes into [00:29:35] it. Right. I think that’s a really, really. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Why did you do mouth spray?

Shameek Popat: Because. [00:29:40]

Payman Langroudi: Were you thinking.

Shameek Popat: The thinking behind that [00:29:45] was I wanted something. Yeah, thunk. Like, I wanted a bougie thing that everyone can carry. [00:29:50] Males and females in their pockets. Handbags and something that actually [00:29:55] come. Yeah. It’s new, so you just have to. Yeah. Something [00:30:00] that actually combated bad breath. Not just mask it. So it’s got sodium chloride in it. [00:30:05] So it eliminates VOCs. Plus it’s got xylitol. Potassium nitrate.

Payman Langroudi: Surprisingly [00:30:10] good taste. Like almost doesn’t like it.

Shameek Popat: Take that. Neutral.

Payman Langroudi: More [00:30:15] neutral. I’m surprised. I thought I’d hate that, but actually, that’s suddenly become my favourite thing. [00:30:20]

Shameek Popat: That’s the amount of people that are using that is is quite, quite, quite a lot, actually. [00:30:25]

Payman Langroudi: Um, it’s called connotations, isn’t it? Of 70s guys. Whatever. Yeah. [00:30:30]

Shameek Popat: But it needs a revival, not the other. Hate I have is [00:30:35] if someone’s chewing chewing gum and talking to me. Me too. Oh my God. It [00:30:40] irritates me. Yeah. Um, so Bret sprays so much better that way.

Payman Langroudi: And these. [00:30:45] This floss is made of what?

Shameek Popat: It’s actually made from recycled water bottles. Huh. [00:30:50] So it’s a four headed razor floss. What? Four headed razor floss?

Payman Langroudi: Which [00:30:55] means.

Shameek Popat: What?

Payman Langroudi: It’s like braided. Kind of. Yeah, yeah.

Shameek Popat: Uh, foreheads and twined together. Which is what makes [00:31:00] it so thick.

Payman Langroudi: Good.

Shameek Popat: Um. And, uh, made from recycled water bottles [00:31:05] coated with xylitol and hydroxyapatite and full of flavour. And I am [00:31:10] really, really kicking myself. Not bringing you the cinnamon one, because that is my favourite. [00:31:15] But you know what?

Payman Langroudi: What can I ask? Can I ask you a quick question? Did you find a manufacturer that was already doing floss [00:31:20] with hydroxyapatite, or did you suggest it?

Shameek Popat: I suggested.

Payman Langroudi: It. Wow.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. So [00:31:25] these. Those things are. Yeah. Those things are.

Payman Langroudi: Doing things that other people won’t [00:31:30] do. You know that. That’s what keeps you competitive advantage. You know, like executing on that. [00:31:35] Yeah. Very easy. Dude, you had to walk into IDs and go straight to the career [00:31:40] thing and say, stick my logo on these seven things. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. But [00:31:45] not a good idea. Not a good idea if you’re small. Yeah. If you’re small, you’ve got to make some breakthroughs. You [00:31:50] know, like, you know, people fool themselves, right? They say, oh, this guy is wearing a Burberry [00:31:55] t shirt, and this other guy is wearing an Armani t shirt, and all these t shirts are made in the same place. There’s [00:32:00] different logos. They forget. Yeah. Burberry did something like spectacular. [00:32:05] Yeah. In the 50s, whatever it was with women, English women in London or 60, whatever it was. And Armani [00:32:10] did something spectacular in his day. Now that they’ve done these amazing things and defined [00:32:15] culture, now they can stick their logo on a t shirt. And for that to be a meaningful thing. Yeah, [00:32:20] me and you can’t, you know, until we make a change, unless we [00:32:25] do something, you know, then your logo on a t shirt might be worth something. Yeah.

Shameek Popat: So. But that’s [00:32:30] the thing. So when we were doing this, you know, a lot of research, a lot of reading [00:32:35] are trying to find, I did for the toothpaste. I did an Excel spreadsheet of [00:32:40] every toothpaste ingredient out there. Yeah. To then create what would be the [00:32:45] perfect ingredients for me?

Payman Langroudi: Is it free of all the baddies?

Shameek Popat: Yeah. So it’s got no SLS, [00:32:50] no BPA, no titanium dioxide, no artificial sweeteners.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:32:55] Did you not find that without. It’s just not pleasing.

Shameek Popat: No. It’s good. So try it. I want you to try it. [00:33:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sodium coke herself. Yeah, it’s just getting it. [00:33:05] All right.

Payman Langroudi: I find it non pleasing, you know.

Shameek Popat: Trust me.

Payman Langroudi: Try it. I [00:33:10] will.

Shameek Popat: Don’t get me wrong. It’s not going to be as good as having SLS.

Payman Langroudi: One thing I found is.

Shameek Popat: When it’s. [00:33:15]

Payman Langroudi: Good enough, when you say, try it. Yeah. Like I. I’ve got people upstairs, you know, who will not use enlightened [00:33:20] toothpaste, you know, because it’s not minty enough. Yeah. You know, [00:33:25] our toothpaste aren’t on purpose. Yeah.

Shameek Popat: You made it mild.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The thing was called serum. Right. [00:33:30] So. And people were putting it in the bleaching tray and putting it in for an hour at a time. It couldn’t be too [00:33:35] minty. Yeah. So ours aren’t. But, you know, we’re not using our teeth. And what I’m saying [00:33:40] is different people have totally different, like, taste when it comes to. Right? Right. What they want from a toothpaste. [00:33:45]

Shameek Popat: You can’t please everyone.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t.

Shameek Popat: You can’t please everyone. So you know I [00:33:50] trust me. I spent a lot of money, um, trying [00:33:55] out loads of different versions and stuff to to find the one that we actually eventually [00:34:00] thought. Yes, this is it. Um, I’m actually making a new one now. At the moment. [00:34:05] Not without fluoride. Me too. Oh, nice. Yeah. Excellent. [00:34:10] So it’s got some super cool ingredients. But I’m having a nightmare with the flavour [00:34:15] at the moment. So we’re we’re going for, like, an apple mint. Um, [00:34:20] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Nice. So let’s talk about money. Where [00:34:25] did you get the money to do all this?

Shameek Popat: Um, you know what? [00:34:30] It was not as difficult as I thought it would be, because [00:34:35] obviously I put money in myself. I’d sold my practice, so I had some money. [00:34:40] Um, and then, you know, just talk to friends, actually, and, you know, [00:34:45] pitch the idea that a pitch deck. And then suddenly. Yeah, a lot of people just said. [00:34:50] Yeah, absolutely. And then obviously did it through an sis. Uh, so, [00:34:55] you know, 50% of their investment is just straight away giving back to them through a tax rebate. [00:35:00] So their risk goes down and say, let’s touch wood. Doesn’t [00:35:05] but say the whole thing goes tits up. The next 5,045% will then be [00:35:10] written off as well. So their risk in the end is not a huge amount. Otherwise I wouldn’t have done it because these [00:35:15] are my friends.

Payman Langroudi: Um, is that so?

Shameek Popat: It would be, uh, 50, [00:35:20] 45? About 20%. That’s good. Yeah. So probably a good night [00:35:25] out in London.

Payman Langroudi: So were you basically selling that size thing more than [00:35:30] the opportunity itself to people who didn’t know what it was?

Shameek Popat: No, they all knew what it was. [00:35:35] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because they were all dentists, hygienists. They’re all they’re all, uh, [00:35:40] you know, Dick Andrew, Chandra Powell, Sam Jatoi, Arnie [00:35:45] Seaborn.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: Don Shilpa, Andy [00:35:50] Acton. So we’ve got a really good team.

Payman Langroudi: Feel the weight of it.

Shameek Popat: Oh my gosh, [00:35:55] big time. I still do it. I still feel the weight.

Payman Langroudi: Look it’s important I’ve never [00:36:00] really had an investor but it’s really important if you have investors that you bear in mind you’re [00:36:05] spending other people’s money, man. Spending other people’s money is difficult. No, it’s difficult when it’s your own money. [00:36:10] You can sort of make a bet on something and feel good. Yeah. So by just [00:36:15] by investing in you, they’re saying, listen, we’re up for your bets. Yeah. But what’s the structure? Do these [00:36:20] any of these guys, are they on the board or like, do you have to discuss. Do you have to get permission from Nissan every [00:36:25] time you want to do something?

Shameek Popat: No, no not really. They’re they’re they’re they’re all they’re all so chill. They’re all so [00:36:30] good. Um, and you know, I think they trust in the [00:36:35] product. They trust with what we’re doing. Um, you know, who knows? [00:36:40] But hopefully, fingers crossed at the moment. So far, so good.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:36:45] is it profitable?

Shameek Popat: Not at the moment. We’ve only been going [00:36:50] for a year.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: It’s literally, you know, launched, like, properly, [00:36:55] uh, last time at the industry Showcase. Really?

Payman Langroudi: So [00:37:00] there’s nothing I was going to get to do. Yeah, I know, I know the reasons why you did this. Yeah, because, you know, you sold [00:37:05] your practice, you know? But for someone else who hasn’t yet opened a practice, or maybe [00:37:10] from number one to number two or number two to number three, or whichever way, who fancies [00:37:15] doing something like this? Yeah, I don’t I’ve never owned a practice, so you correct me. Right. But [00:37:20] let’s say I’ve got a quarter of £1 million. If I put that into a practice, I can buy myself [00:37:25] £1 million practice or whatever. Yeah, that million pound practice the following year [00:37:30] might give me my quarter of a million back, or maybe just less or whatever. Yeah. Or [00:37:35] two years.

Shameek Popat: Wishful thinking.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. It’s harder than okay. No, but are you saying what? [00:37:40] Whether you should buy a practice or do this? Yeah. Buy a practice? Yeah, yeah. No brainer at all. [00:37:45] No brainer at all.

Payman Langroudi: Now I understand why you did this. Yeah, because sometimes you want to do something [00:37:50] fun, and sometimes you want to shoot for the moon. Yeah. Like, you know, if this goes [00:37:55] right, you could buy fly a helicopter. Whatever. Yeah. Yeah. So I understand why you do it. [00:38:00] Understand why you do it. But as advice to others. People thinking, oh, products are so, so [00:38:05] fashionable these days.

Shameek Popat: No, no, no, I agree with that. It’s tough.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:38:10] tough. Tougher than you imagined.

Shameek Popat: A lot tougher than I imagined. Don’t get me wrong, I [00:38:15] had a lot of fun doing it. You know, the meetings with branding, [00:38:20] website development, designing. Oh, my God, I felt [00:38:25] alive. And I’m doing it all over again as well, so I feel alive. So all that part is amazing. [00:38:30] You know, and I loved it. And, you know, uh, your, your creative [00:38:35] juices flow and you don’t sleep at night because you’ve got hundreds [00:38:40] of ideas coming in and staff. Um, so that’s all fun. But then once it’s all of [00:38:45] that’s done, and then you actually have to get the product out there and get people buying [00:38:50] it. It is tough. It’s tough. Plus also the margins on these are [00:38:55] quite small. Right. So it doesn’t make sense.

Payman Langroudi: How much.

Shameek Popat: Is that? It’s, uh, £31. [00:39:00]

Payman Langroudi: 99 to the consumer.

Shameek Popat: Consumer?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And the dentist.

Shameek Popat: The dentist. Buy at a 30% [00:39:05] discount. So that’s their margin, 30%. But they can obviously put the prices up a little bit. That’s [00:39:10] a suggested RRP. Um, because obviously if you buy it from our website, our ecommerce [00:39:15] store and stuff, they’ll pay a delivery charge as well and stuff. So you’ve got that little bit of leeway as well.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:39:20] interesting because, you know, when we did the serum, it was [00:39:25] way back then. You couldn’t get ingredients like hydroxyapatite weren’t, you [00:39:30] know. Yeah. There was one manufacturer. I found one. Yeah. And, um, I had to [00:39:35] introduce that manufacturer to the toothpaste. Uh, factory? [00:39:40] Yeah. There was no other choice. Yeah, and he was charging a lot. Yeah. Bovine as well. And [00:39:45] so when the price of the product had to be £12 or something. [00:39:50] And I remember thinking £12 for toothpaste, man. Like, [00:39:55] who’s gonna buy it? Yeah. And I was looking in boots last [00:40:00] week. There’s a £25 Colgate product now £25. Yeah. [00:40:05] Yeah. So the category has got to that. Like, you know there’s moon. There’s um [00:40:10] obviously hi smile. The categories got itself.

Shameek Popat: Up to that. Yeah you’re right. There [00:40:15] are so many out there.

Payman Langroudi: But that said that said, it’s nowhere near mature. Yeah. [00:40:20] Like, it’s not like hair or skin or lips even. Yeah. Lips. I [00:40:25] my my daughter came to me and said, oh, can I have this lip gloss. Lip, lip. Not [00:40:30] not not makeup. What’s it called?

Shameek Popat: The lip gloss.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. Not makeup. Just something [00:40:35] that makes hydrates your lips. Right. Can I have this lip gloss? Yeah. So. Sure. Push [00:40:40] the button. 1499 for lip gloss. Yeah. Believe me, I can believe it. Yeah. [00:40:45] And she. She was thinking nothing of it. Yeah.

Shameek Popat: So, you know what the comparison I do [00:40:50] put here is, is because people are used to spending 2.99 [00:40:55] for a toothpaste. It’s like people are used to NHS dentistry, [00:41:00] right? That set the benchmark. So which is why [00:41:05] private dentistry suddenly becomes looks so much more expensive. The same with these things, even though the products [00:41:10] are so much better with my. My ingredients cost more than what [00:41:15] most toothpastes are selling for out there cost you the cost of [00:41:20] that.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. It’s not, it’s not.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. I get them from Italy. They’re the highest [00:41:25] grade hydroxyapatite that you can get. Um, really, [00:41:30] really good, good product. Uh, and it’s tough trying to. And then the new one is going to [00:41:35] be even more expensive because of the ingredients I’m using in it.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:41:40] is that are you getting resistance on price?

Shameek Popat: Not [00:41:45] as much, because at the moment we focus. Ah. You see, my thing [00:41:50] was and this is where I’m slightly changing my mindset a little bit was I [00:41:55] thought dentists and hygienists and therapists would be [00:42:00] our salespeople, really, because I wanted to empower them to be able to [00:42:05] sell products that are good for their patients. Their practice [00:42:10] makes a little bit of money and the fact that they’ll have a tooth. Angel zero waste box patients [00:42:15] can come in and recycle everything and buy new products. So it’s a circular economy [00:42:20] happening everywhere. So everyone win win. So we concentrated on that first, [00:42:25] um, before we went out to the general public. And I thought once they get the word out there that this is a good product, [00:42:30] we thought organic. Yeah, it’d be like an organic flow happening. [00:42:35] Um, but yeah, but, you know, don’t get me wrong, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Been you changed your mind now.

Shameek Popat: And I have changed my mind a little [00:42:40] bit. Um, because of seeing what other [00:42:45] brands are doing, you know, and how their trajectory has gone because they’ve gone direct consumer. [00:42:50] But again, they, you know, they must have had lots of backing because it’s all on advertising.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, the direct to [00:42:55] consumer is a massive, bigger nightmare. Yeah, bigger. Much bigger nightmare than than [00:43:00] the dentistry. Much bigger. Yeah, I can imagine. But my, my my point to you [00:43:05] was you’ve put yourself in that nightmare situation of having to go direct consumer. That was [00:43:10] what I was saying about it. But hey go direct consumer. Yeah. Because, you know, you might work. [00:43:15] I’m not standing here telling you.

Shameek Popat: To not do it. So I think the next one we [00:43:20] will. Because obviously it’s a non fluoride one.

Payman Langroudi: By [00:43:25] the way when I asked you the question about is there price. Objection. Right. Is is price.

Shameek Popat: Yes. [00:43:30] Of course there will be.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t put yourself in the luxury category without price. Objection.

Shameek Popat: No, no [00:43:35] you can’t. Absolutely. So there is.

Payman Langroudi: Obviously it’s part of the luxury category. Did you hear that bit with [00:43:40] a guy from Hermes where he goes, oh, home is very expensive. And he goes, no, it’s [00:43:45] costly. He goes, what’s the difference? And he [00:43:50] goes, when you spend the time to. To do it, do things properly that costs. [00:43:55] But expensive is where it’s something expensive. Something you’ve paid money for, something that something you paid [00:44:00] money for but didn’t deliver. Yeah. Different things. I love that, actually. [00:44:05]

Shameek Popat: I love that. I love the accent.

Payman Langroudi: My kids are in French school. French [00:44:10] school? Yeah.

Shameek Popat: Oh, yeah. How’s that?

Payman Langroudi: My wife’s Lebanese.

Shameek Popat: Oh. [00:44:15]

Payman Langroudi: She was. She was in the same school. You know, the Lisa is very. The [00:44:20] Lisa in South Kenya is very, like, good. It’s the best Lisa outside France, right? Okay. [00:44:25] Yeah. But but look that question. Right. I think about brands [00:44:30] sometimes. Yeah. Like brands outside our area. Like [00:44:35] brands that that I think of it in two different ways. One is stuff I [00:44:40] adore. Stuff I love. Yeah. There isn’t much like, uh, AirPods. Yeah. [00:44:45] You know, I yeah, I adore that outside of phone, [00:44:50] outside of software stuff like, you know, Instagram. That doesn’t count, right? There [00:44:55] isn’t much in products that I adore. But [00:45:00] brands that I’m really impressed by. Yeah. I [00:45:05] mean the one, the one that in the end is like, for me, the most [00:45:10] impressive brand.

Shameek Popat: Evian Avion. [00:45:15]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s extraordinary if you if I put a three, 4 or 5 bottles [00:45:20] of water in front of you. So they’re all the same price. Pick one. Which one will you pick? Like [00:45:25] you’re going to you’re going to pick the outside of the Fiji luxury like outside of that. But [00:45:30] Evian right. It’s water dude. It’s water. Yeah. And yet they’ve they’ve I’ve [00:45:35] got no idea whether it’s better for you water or taste you in the Pepsi Challenge. [00:45:40] You definitely mess it up right there between Evian and Highland Spring. You wouldn’t be able to tell the [00:45:45] difference, right?

Shameek Popat: Marketing. Right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But what? Like what? Genius is it? Yeah, that takes [00:45:50] water.

Shameek Popat: And makes.

Payman Langroudi: Sense and makes it so cool. It’s just amazing. It [00:45:55] blows me away every time. And by the way, I do like the, like I would buy. I buy it as long as I pay more for living [00:46:00] by mistake. Yeah. Um, but belts, [00:46:05] you know, like Hermes, you know, they’ve managed to make a piece of leather like [00:46:10] that. Expensive. I, I don’t buy that stuff. Yeah, but but I, I do [00:46:15] like.

Shameek Popat: Figure.

Payman Langroudi: It. Yeah. I think bloody hell. Well done. And then as far as execution [00:46:20] in marketing Red bull. I mean, I don’t like the product. [00:46:25] I like it on the one once a year where I need it. Right. But but the [00:46:30] execution.

Shameek Popat: But they were so clever the way.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the product doesn’t feature in any of the [00:46:35] content at all. Yeah.

Shameek Popat: No no no, no. It’s beautiful. They were clever with how they, you know, the whole story behind [00:46:40] it. Yeah. The Red bull and stuff. They went with the skateboarders, the, uh, Snowboarders [00:46:45] and the mountain bikers. And you know, all the super [00:46:50] cool fringe sports. But they’re such a huge cult following and some things. Yeah. [00:46:55] And they marketed it through them. And that just worked. And, you know. Yeah, it gives you wings. [00:47:00] Yeah. Love it. Great tagline.

Payman Langroudi: And in that category food and beverage a nightmare category [00:47:05] to to like break. Coca-cola. Oh a can one third the size four times [00:47:10] the price of whatever it was that actually made you high. Yeah. And you know, like that. [00:47:15] That’s crazy. What they managed to pull off. Right.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. That’s so clever, isn’t it? You [00:47:20] know, marketing is just such a an amazing feel. You know, you get the right. [00:47:25] I mean, it just comes back to the ideas and stuff. And now whether I will change that [00:47:30] and replace these clever people with ideas and stuff because, you know, [00:47:35] there’s so, you know, you put it into ChatGPT for some ideas and stuff and you’ll get pages [00:47:40] of it. And some of it is like, oh shit, I really like that tagline. Yeah, that’s really, really good. [00:47:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But you know, it comes back to then once the whole planet is fully on [00:47:50] it, then it’s just it’s like the internet itself. It’s like you’ve [00:47:55] got much more scope for doing things and way more competition. [00:48:00] Way, way more competition than anyone from a bedroom can start a [00:48:05] brand. Yeah, like they could they could do it with, like a website in one day, an app [00:48:10] in two days here, if you remember what it used to take to make it. App. Right. Um, [00:48:15] product. They could drop ship logos, names, all [00:48:20] that stuff is so doable overnight. You know.

Shameek Popat: It’s like, did you hear the vintage story? [00:48:25] No. You’re not selling.

Payman Langroudi: When you sell your clothes.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, yeah. That’s that. I [00:48:30] think it started with a girl who was moving and she didn’t have wardrobe space in her new place, [00:48:35] uh, Lithuania or somewhere like that. I can’t remember where she’s from. Um, [00:48:40] and she didn’t have a wardrobe space, So she thought quite a few clothes. And you know, she [00:48:45] had a good fashion sense and stuff. Um, maybe I’ll just sell them, uh, online and stuff. And she [00:48:50] was at a party, and she met a tech guy there that she got on with and stuff, and she pitched the [00:48:55] idea saying, oh, can you just do a little website for me to sell these clothes? And [00:49:00] the guy goes, yeah, absolutely. And stuff. And, you know, they went around saying, well, would you buy these clothes and stuff? And people said, [00:49:05] yes. Set up a website. Yeah. I think within two weeks she sold out. And [00:49:10] then the whole thing snowballed from that. And I think it’s a $4 billion [00:49:15] company now.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, was, you know, do you know Zeba from Ru [00:49:20] Dental?

Shameek Popat: Uh, yes, I’ve heard I obviously I know ru Dental. [00:49:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: Because Richard Richard works there doesn’t he used to be Richard feeling.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So maybe, [00:49:30] um, but, you know, in Cardiff. Um. Anyway ru Dental Zabrze. [00:49:35] Um, dad and uncle have, like, I don’t know [00:49:40] whether it’s like, it’s one of the biggest, um, chains of, um, care [00:49:45] homes in Europe.

Shameek Popat: Oh, wow.

Payman Langroudi: Like, they went from 600 [00:49:50] to 1000 200 in 1 deal. You know, like a huge, huge, [00:49:55] huge business. And. But she was telling me that, you know, they all used to live in the same flat above the [00:50:00] the shop, the dry cleaner or whatever. Yeah. Um, but [00:50:05] then I was telling someone else. That’s right. And he said, well, yeah, every story starts with [00:50:10] a nothing situation unless it’s some sort of inheritance. Right. [00:50:15] Every single story starts, you know, Steve Jobs was in his garage playing. [00:50:20] It’s an interesting thing, isn’t it?

Shameek Popat: We all have a story, right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:50:25]

Shameek Popat: Payman and sham started in a single surgery industry. [00:50:30]

Payman Langroudi: We’ll talk about disruptive later. Yeah. [00:50:35] Where were you born?

Shameek Popat: I was born in Kampala, Uganda. Oh, Really? [00:50:40]

Payman Langroudi: Master race.

Shameek Popat: And master.

Payman Langroudi: Race?

Shameek Popat: Oh, [00:50:45] no. What were you saying? You know, I. Mean. [00:50:50] Yeah. Yeah. So the whole Idi Amin thing happened, and, [00:50:55] um, obviously we all. We had, like, a month to leave, you [00:51:00] know? Um, we had a thriving business house, everything kind of tea state. We [00:51:05] had a tea state estate.

Payman Langroudi: As in land. The tea plantation we had in Iran, too.

Shameek Popat: What did [00:51:10] you see? Amazing.

Shameek Popat: Um, and then most [00:51:15] of the family, uh, because obviously, uh, the Ugandan Asians, [00:51:20] they were all bought by the British to build the railways and stuff. So they all had British overseas passports. [00:51:25] So most of our family came to the UK. Uh, but the family just thought [00:51:30] that we should have some presence in India. So my father, being the eldest brother, got sent to [00:51:35] India, and my brother was born in India, and I was only a baby. So I spent [00:51:40] my childhood in Gujarat. Baroda, Gujarat. Uh, so I grew up [00:51:45] there.

Payman Langroudi: To what.

Shameek Popat: Age?

Shameek Popat: Until the age of 13.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Shameek Popat: And then, you know, I [00:51:50] was actually literally just telling this story the other day. I think this is probably my biggest [00:51:55] sliding door moment, I think. Um, [00:52:00] we went to Dehradun. I don’t know if you’ve heard of Dehradun in India. It’s [00:52:05] up in the north and it has like these amazing private schools there. Uh, [00:52:10] they’re like Harrow Eton type.

Shameek Popat: Things.

Shameek Popat: And stuff, you know. And so we went [00:52:15] to see it, and it’s the first time I’ve been that high, and I was above clouds and I was like, awed by it. The [00:52:20] school was amazing. So the choice was between us going there or coming to [00:52:25] the UK for education for the next. Because look in India, right. It’s [00:52:30] survival of the fittest. There’s like 60 people in a class. And you know, [00:52:35] I was probably a medium student there and stuff. Then, you know, they had [00:52:40] to choose. They said, oh, we can’t leave you to study there and stuff. We want you either to send you there or [00:52:45] go to the UK. And then we chose UK in the end because, you know, everyone was family was here when [00:52:50] you were in India and stuff. Studying in the UK was also like a great [00:52:55] thing, something unusual. Status and my cousins, cousins, brothers were all here who we [00:53:00] were really great friends with. Um, so we thought, okay, so um, we got [00:53:05] sent to Stockport, Manchester to live with my uncle and [00:53:10] aunt.

Payman Langroudi: What were your parents still in India?

Shameek Popat: Still India? Because we had we had a, um, a factory [00:53:15] there. Yeah. Um, bizarrely, actually making plastic bags for [00:53:20] fertiliser.

Payman Langroudi: Were they quite well to do in India?

Shameek Popat: Um, they [00:53:25] were, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The Indian.

Shameek Popat: Standard.

Shameek Popat: Indian standard. They were. We had a good life.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So [00:53:30] you came to Stockport.

Shameek Popat: Stockport? Yeah. So I went to Stockport Grammar And [00:53:35] I lived with my uncle and aunt who were, you know, they were pretty young as well. They [00:53:40] were in their 30s. So it was just like amazing that they took these two boys from India. And, [00:53:45] um, they didn’t have kids at that point themselves. Um, so they’re like my second parents, [00:53:50] and I owe a lot to them. Uh, and he’s he he was a dentist, hence [00:53:55] the influence. So that’s how I and my brother became dentists, [00:54:00] because we saw that he enjoyed his job. He had a good life. [00:54:05] Um, and, you know, at that stage, you probably heard [00:54:10] this from others. You literally had 3 or 4 choices. You either were going to become a doctor, [00:54:15] dentist, uh, accountant or uh, possibly, uh, [00:54:20] law. There were secondary ones like, you know, you could do pharmacy or or. Yeah. [00:54:25] That’s it. But literally to to us the choice was literally the choice was [00:54:30] medicine, dentistry, accountancy.

Payman Langroudi: Your daughters must have [00:54:35] come to you. Or. Well, there was a time where you could have talked to them.

Shameek Popat: Influence?

Payman Langroudi: No. Did [00:54:40] you say anything to them?

Shameek Popat: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know what? Did you tell them to become dentists?

Shameek Popat: No, no. So [00:54:45] while I didn’t encourage or discourage it. None of them. I have three kids. [00:54:50] I have twin girls and a boy. And none of them wanted. None of them [00:54:55] wanted to do it.

Payman Langroudi: Did you feel like. Did you feel like you failed somehow? No.

Shameek Popat: No I didn’t. [00:55:00] Actually, I really didn’t. Um, I’d rather they do something that they’re happy with [00:55:05] that they want to do. And dentistry is hard. So I wasn’t that [00:55:10] displeased.

Payman Langroudi: They didn’t know that hard, man.

Shameek Popat: It’s hard.

Payman Langroudi: I think it is [00:55:15] hard. But somehow.

Shameek Popat: I think it’s more difficult now than when it was when we did.

Payman Langroudi: It.

Shameek Popat: Maybe. [00:55:20] All right.

Payman Langroudi: So what did your kids end up studying and doing?

Shameek Popat: All three of them are doing economics. [00:55:25]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Shameek Popat: They’re all doing economics. Oh, I.

Payman Langroudi: See.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. Um, [00:55:30] one of them at the moment is in Madrid doing a year out.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent. [00:55:35]

Shameek Popat: So we got to go and pick her up next week. Actually, she’s just had the time of her life. [00:55:40] The other one just finished. She just did her final exams and she’s already got a job [00:55:45] with Deloitte starting from September. Such an internship with them. And they’ve offered [00:55:50] it. And my son has just started first year. Well, Birmingham. So [00:55:55] I’ve got two in Birmingham, one in Nottingham.

Payman Langroudi: And Empty Nest now.

Shameek Popat: So yeah. [00:56:00] Yeah it’s it’s it’s tough.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not redefining [00:56:05] yourself. Right. You know that anymore.

Shameek Popat: Right. But you know what. What’s been what’s been quite funny [00:56:10] and stuff. I’m actually finding that my nice my wife is so much nicer to me now that we don’t have the kids. [00:56:15] She’s like, looking after me so much better. We were just telling the [00:56:20] kids you guys were the problems, right? This is why we were. No, you know, it was. She was always bad [00:56:25] cop. I’m good cop. So. Me too. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Me too, me too. Um. [00:56:30] Three kids is an achievement that’s difficult. Difficult in Britain.

Shameek Popat: Um, [00:56:35] well, yeah, we had twins, so.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: Even harder was.

Payman Langroudi: Even.

Shameek Popat: Harder. Yeah. Which is [00:56:40] why when we had our son, uh, we was like, oh, what are these parents with single child complaining about? This is so [00:56:45] easy.

Payman Langroudi: Take me back to the story, then. Okay.

Shameek Popat: Oh, yeah. Going back.

Payman Langroudi: So, yeah, [00:56:50] we both became dentists.

Shameek Popat: We both became dentists. Did you study, um, at Guy’s Hospital?

Payman Langroudi: Where did he study [00:56:55] things?

Shameek Popat: This is when they were separate.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Is he older than you?

Shameek Popat: He’s younger than me. Younger, [00:57:00] though. Yeah. Most people think he’s older than me. He’s. He’s an orthodontist. [00:57:05] Okay, so he’s an orthodontist. Um, but the funny thing was, while [00:57:10] my brother and I both became dentists, my uncle, who [00:57:15] had two sons who are like, we’re very close to you as well. And, you know, because we sort of grew [00:57:20] up, we were doing their nappies and looking after them, and they’re like great friends of ours, as well as [00:57:25] cousin brothers. They wanted nothing to do with dentistry. Once become a pilot [00:57:30] with British Airways and the others are an actuary with Deloitte.

Payman Langroudi: Oh great job. [00:57:35] So my my brother wants to become an actuary. My parents made him become a doctor. He still complains about [00:57:40] it. He still complains. So go tell me about your dental school experience. Were you the life of the [00:57:45] party, or was this a. Is this a later incarnation of.

Shameek Popat: Oh, you know what? I [00:57:50] was always. Yeah, I was always into fun. So. Yeah, I was always, always into trouble. [00:57:55] Um, yeah. I used to have to go every week to see the vice principal to make sure [00:58:00] that I turned up. Um, no, I was.

Payman Langroudi: Were you with Nissan? Yes. [00:58:05] Anyone else I knew?

Shameek Popat: Um, who else would you know?

Payman Langroudi: Uh, my brother around that time was [00:58:10] in Geist, but as a medic.

Shameek Popat: Oh, okay. Okay. Okay, okay.

Payman Langroudi: Where were you?

Shameek Popat: 1993?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:58:15] he left in 94.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. So, um. Great crowd, you know? [00:58:20] Have you Banerjee? Of course. Yeah. So Abhi was with me.

Payman Langroudi: As a student.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, we [00:58:25] were together.

Payman Langroudi: You’re kidding.

Shameek Popat: No, no no, no. We always we always joke about it. We were just reminiscing [00:58:30] about it all at the industry showcase, actually.

Payman Langroudi: Or have we never left? He stayed [00:58:35] on and all day long.

Shameek Popat: But you know what? We always knew he was. He was.

Payman Langroudi: What was? He was a very [00:58:40] clever guy.

Shameek Popat: Very clever. You always knew he was going to be marked for greatness. Uh, [00:58:45] always, always dedicated, always the top. But also [00:58:50] like to have fun, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Very kind. Very kind guy. Yeah. I really like.

Shameek Popat: Having. No, no, he’s a really, really cool guy. [00:58:55]

Payman Langroudi: I.

Shameek Popat: Really like. So we had fun. Um, I was always in trouble. [00:59:00] But did you see the game was. Yeah, I always passed. [00:59:05] Um. Did enough. Did enough to pass. Um. Probably [00:59:10] wasn’t the best student. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s tough, man. It’s tough for you to grow up.

Shameek Popat: Enjoy your mindset. [00:59:15] Change a lot later.

Payman Langroudi: Just quickly. Did your parents [00:59:20] never come to the UK?

Shameek Popat: No. No. So they would come to visit? Obviously.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, but they never came.

Shameek Popat: And then they came because [00:59:25] they missed us too much, so they sold everything.

Payman Langroudi: Were you already university by this?

Shameek Popat: So literally that’s what happened. So they [00:59:30] came to Manchester.

Payman Langroudi: And.

Shameek Popat: You left and I left. So [00:59:35] they got some time with my brother, but not with me. But then they obviously followed [00:59:40] us down to London as well.

Payman Langroudi: And your brother’s not involved in the dental world and the way that you [00:59:45] are or is he.

Shameek Popat: No not not not in because. Well, it’s orthodontists [00:59:50] are a different breed. They have their own thing. Right. They, they don’t really socialise with the general dentists. Um, [00:59:55] so they have their own thing. Um, and my brother is quite different to me. [01:00:00]

Payman Langroudi: Uh, yeah.

Shameek Popat: It’s just that way. Yeah. He’s, he’s a lot more serious. Um, [01:00:05] but a really cool guy as well. And. Yeah, we’re quite close.

Payman Langroudi: And did you think you were going to open [01:00:10] a practice always, like, was that like, in your head from the beginning?

Shameek Popat: Yeah, I think that, you know.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:00:15] what everyone did.

Shameek Popat: That’s what everyone did. Yeah. It was just expected. It was just trying to find the right practice. And [01:00:20] the right practice in the right area came up and [01:00:25] it was just fate. And, you know, I bought the practice. I bought a [01:00:30] house there. I mean, those early years, you know. Now you don’t think about it. Uh. [01:00:35] Um. Because now you think about it. How did I manage it? All right. [01:00:40] Because in those early years, I bought this new practice, [01:00:45] you know, which was a, like, a rundown two surgery practice, but in a beautiful [01:00:50] area. But it was a Chorleywood, Chorleywood white middle class, [01:00:55] by the way. Chorleywood was the happiest village in the UK. Probably because of the smiles I created. [01:01:00] I joke about that. Um, I bought that, uh, practice, [01:01:05] um, which was, I think, uh, January 2002. Then, [01:01:10] uh, we found out we were expecting twins, so we thought we [01:01:15] were in a beautiful little, uh, three bedroom semi-detached place on the river in Croxley, which [01:01:20] was beautiful, but we thought we needed something bigger. So I bought a house, so then. But it needed to [01:01:25] be redone. Then we bought a second practice in 2003. So I had two [01:01:30] practices a new house, expecting twins, and then my wife felt [01:01:35] quite ill having the babies and stuff, and I was doing it all. And [01:01:40] I remember once, you know, going to because and the twins were eight weeks early, so they were in the neonatal [01:01:45] unit. So I still remember doing a hard day’s work driving [01:01:50] to the UCL hospital, and I had to stop on the M1 layby just just to [01:01:55] sleep because I hadn’t slept much at all. Yeah. Doing it all. Um, [01:02:00] but in those days, you just got on with it. You’re like, you know, you were young, [01:02:05] full of energy, and you thought that was the norm. It was. It was a norm. [01:02:10] And it is. But now I think I would find it so much more difficult.

Payman Langroudi: To pull it off now. But but but you see [01:02:15] them now. I mean, you see, I don’t know, Simon. Uh, they’re doing all the things they’re doing. [01:02:20] And there’s young children. Yeah. And it makes you forget. You forget what it is. But then. But then I think you’ll agree [01:02:25] with me. As they get older, the problems are different as well, right? You’ve got different things to worry about. Still [01:02:30] worried. Right?

Shameek Popat: No, absolutely. You know, it never gets easier. No. Each year, I always tell this [01:02:35] story that one of the best nights of my life is [01:02:40] New Year’s Eve. Because we have fun, family, always, you know, [01:02:45] partying, having free drinks, enjoying it, celebrating the year that’s [01:02:50] gone. Mhm. And the worst day of my life is New Year’s Day because [01:02:55] it’s a new year. You get the blues. You always want to [01:03:00] set the bar higher. And you think shit I’ve got to start all over again. [01:03:05] And I got to make it better. How am I going to do it? And I get the blues really badly [01:03:10] for that first week actually, because I always want to set the bar higher.

Payman Langroudi: Nice [01:03:15] that you’re setting the bar, though. Not everyone does. No, no, I find some years I [01:03:20] do some things I don’t. Some. Some years I don’t talk about it to myself at this [01:03:25] point.

Shameek Popat: No, I was I think maybe now I’ve come to.

Payman Langroudi: A kind of a discipline.

Shameek Popat: Thing. Yeah. [01:03:30]

Payman Langroudi: To do it. Yeah. Because it’s easy, you know, you’re off. It’s easy not to think about anything and, [01:03:35] you know, watch a movie. It’s easier to do that.

Shameek Popat: It’s so much easier to do that. You’re right.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s important [01:03:40] to have the discipline to, to to at least once a year.

Shameek Popat: Think I’m one of those that I [01:03:45] need. I need tasks and goals to work and do things. [01:03:50] If I don’t have it, then yeah, it’s easy to get into the lazy side and just let life drift past. [01:03:55]

Payman Langroudi: As a dentist, you got into the whole choice program [01:04:00] and you know, like heading for excellence, clinical clinical excellence, right? [01:04:05] Um, was it that was the practice, one of those practices, or did you [01:04:10] have to turn it into that practice?

Shameek Popat: No, no, I had to turn it into that practice.

Payman Langroudi: What was what was it like a [01:04:15] just a regular general.

Shameek Popat: Regular, practice.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so I [01:04:20] remember seeing you at all the FMC events. Rosenthal. All the time around that time. Um, [01:04:25] so.

Shameek Popat: That.

Payman Langroudi: Education was a huge.

Shameek Popat: Huge thing. Yeah, I think that’s where it all [01:04:30] changed, actually, because in my younger days and stuff and everything, I thought. [01:04:35] And that was the early days, right? I thought being a good dentist, [01:04:40] what definition of a good dentist was one that then caused pain to your patients, [01:04:45] was liked by the patients and had a full diary? Yeah, that was [01:04:50] the criteria basically, of being a good dentist, actually.

Payman Langroudi: Great. The easy low hanging fruit man. [01:04:55] Important. That’s important stuff.

Shameek Popat: Tell, tell. Then I started, you know, [01:05:00] um, thinking, you know, I got this is getting a little boring. You know, I’m better than this, and [01:05:05] I, I enjoy what I do, and I have a great patient base. And, [01:05:10] you know, you always want to educate yourself and develop yourself and stuff. And I started going to [01:05:15] these courses and you know did the Larry Rosenthal and suddenly shit. There’s more [01:05:20] to dentistry than just drill Phil and Bill thing. You know, there’s line angles, [01:05:25] ginger wills. Then it’s buccal corridors. You know, cosmetic [01:05:30] dentistry and, you know, whitening. You know, seeing you guys do your things and things. [01:05:35] And I was like, wow, there’s a lot more to dentistry. But, um, [01:05:40] I was also getting into occlusion at that stage. So I was [01:05:45] one of the clever ones that sort of, well, without sounding immodest and stuff, thinking, okay, [01:05:50] if I’m going to do this cosmetic work, I need to make sure that it fits well, [01:05:55] it lasts well, and the bite is correct, right? Because I don’t want things to fail. So [01:06:00] again, you know, like my research and stuff, I did a whole big research thing and stuff [01:06:05] and there were five options that I had John Frank [01:06:10] spear, Dawson LV or panky LVI. [01:06:15] I just didn’t like the philosophy. You just end up with long teeth panky. [01:06:20] I don’t know, it just didn’t resonate with me. Uh, which left [01:06:25] the other three doors, and I’d done a lot of doors and I liked it, but I just didn’t like the fact that everything [01:06:30] lived and died in CR, which I didn’t believe in that concept. Uh, so which left [01:06:35] Frank Speare and John Cleese, who are both admired, and I actually met my [01:06:40] other mentor, Ken Harris, at actually, Ian Buckley’s practice through a [01:06:45] Dawson course.

Payman Langroudi: Was also in UK.

Shameek Popat: And he’d just come back from doing quiz. Yeah, and he [01:06:50] recommended it highly. And that was my tipping point to do quiz. Um, and yeah, [01:06:55] 2006 I went for the first time to John Cleese and yeah, [01:07:00] uh, I think that was the single most important thing [01:07:05] that I’ve done in my dental career. John has changed. How I practice [01:07:10] dentistry, changed my life. So, yeah, I a lot to that, man.

Payman Langroudi: So could [01:07:15] you put it in in simple terms, right. What you [01:07:20] felt the first time you went there? And also when you say something as massive as [01:07:25] you changed the way I practice, you know, like were you. Is it as is as obvious as [01:07:30] you’re now looking for mouth rather than quadrant? Is that like, you know, absolutely. Good. Like [01:07:35] you could deliver full mouth his whole.

Shameek Popat: You know, let me just say when [01:07:40] I was apprehensive, okay? I mean, this is like, I think the first time, um, I’d gone [01:07:45] to the US after obviously nine over 11 as well. Yeah, yeah. Um, going to Seattle. So I was a little bit apprehensive. [01:07:50]

Payman Langroudi: The great town.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, yeah, I’ll tell you the funniest story as [01:07:55] well. So literally the first time I went to staff, I went, you know, to immigration and stuff and, um, [01:08:00] get the passport in and stuff. And he looks at the photo and looks at it, looks at the photo [01:08:05] and stuff and says, this doesn’t look like you. I shot my pants. I was like, [01:08:10] oh shit, what’s going to happen. And I said really? And he was in that. Just kidding. [01:08:15]

Payman Langroudi: It’s 911, I remember. I used to get taken to secondary for questioning. [01:08:20]

Shameek Popat: But then when I, when I went to, um, the [01:08:25] quiz centre, you experienced the service level. [01:08:30] Nothing. Nothing that was in the UK like that and stuff, you know. Beautiful. [01:08:35] There’s your own warmers. Light. You know, you go to that. There’s [01:08:40] a fridge with every drink, every snack that you could want. They try and find out what [01:08:45] you like and try and get it for you. Uh, I remember when Tarik went and stuff. They especially got [01:08:50] in Ion Brew for him as well. You know, it was just unbelievable. And then the [01:08:55] teaching, the products, the whole manual, the whole traffic light system of [01:09:00] how to gauge patients and things. Um, you know, everything made [01:09:05] sense. It had a point and it meant how you could do dentistry [01:09:10] better.

Payman Langroudi: And some people worry that they’re not good enough. Does that? Do they start [01:09:15] at the beginning and anyone can understand?

Shameek Popat: Well, I don’t think, um, [01:09:20] question choice is something that you can start in the first five years of your career. [01:09:25] Oh, really? Yeah. I think you need to wait a little bit. Just a variety of [01:09:30] reasons. One, the level is quite high.

Payman Langroudi: From the beginning.

Shameek Popat: Like the.

Payman Langroudi: Beginning. It starts like a basic [01:09:35] level.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, yeah, you get it. But you can. But also I think the main [01:09:40] thing is what have you learn. Because you’re [01:09:45] probably an associate there, right. You’re not going to be able to implement it. And, and the [01:09:50] principal practice because he doesn’t understand it. He’s not going to suddenly want to change this whole practice because he’s associate [01:09:55] has gone on one course and wants to buy this, do this, change the whole thing. It’s just never going to happen. But [01:10:00] if you’ve been there for a little while, you’ve got the experience. Your principal understands you, trust [01:10:05] you. And then when you come to him saying, this is what I want to do. He’ll be more on [01:10:10] board.

Payman Langroudi: Give me an example of that. Like, what are we talking? Equipment. Articulators. This was the [01:10:15] way.

Shameek Popat: I should change my whole medical questionnaire. Uh. Uh, I [01:10:20] changed the equipment. Um, I changed the way how I approach patients and [01:10:25] and actually examine them, change my treatment plans. The [01:10:30] whole. The way you practice dentistry changes. You don’t have [01:10:35] to. I mean, I have to be admitted because of the practices. And I was, you know, I didn’t go in feet first and stuff. [01:10:40] I did it so that, you know, most of the patients, you just would treat it as normal and stuff. [01:10:45] But then when the right cases came, you would do the whole shebang.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:10:50] do you recognise that some people say, oh, people who do these things end up over treating. Have [01:10:55] you ever heard that before? Am I making that up? Am I making this? I mean, maybe I’m making that [01:11:00] up in my own head.

Shameek Popat: No, no, not with me.

Payman Langroudi: Just generally, American training makes you more interventionist. [01:11:05]

Shameek Popat: That’s more what you’re talking cosmetic stuff and veneers and stuff, of course, has never been about veneers. [01:11:10]

Payman Langroudi: So you don’t think it’s like.

Shameek Popat: The case is about.

Payman Langroudi: Collapsed bite situation where you think. [01:11:15]

Shameek Popat: No.

Payman Langroudi: Treated early.

Shameek Popat: You’re actually treating collapsed bites. You’re not creating them, right?

Payman Langroudi: No, I know, I know.

Shameek Popat: But so he’s [01:11:20] he’s he’s never and I and then the way it is is it’s broken into nine modules [01:11:25] right. Treatment planning. Occlusion one. Biomechanics. Perio restorative interface. [01:11:30]

Payman Langroudi: Teaching. He’s a great teacher. Does he teach at all? No. This is simple.

Shameek Popat: People know most [01:11:35] of it’s him. Most of it’s him. He’s got a few other people coming in now that’s helping him. [01:11:40] Yeah. Um, and I’m actually really, really gutted that this [01:11:45] July is probably one of the last symposiums. You can only get to go [01:11:50] to a symposium after you’ve graduated. Um, so you have to do all nine modules [01:11:55] before you’re allowed to go. Um, and it’s probably the last one, [01:12:00] and I can’t go. My daughter’s graduating, so obviously that’s why you can’t make it. Yeah, I can’t make it. So [01:12:05] it’s going to be a big FOMO.

Payman Langroudi: How does it take to graduate?

Shameek Popat: It [01:12:10] depends. There are nine modules. Uh, three days each. Yeah, a [01:12:15] big, big investment as well. How much? Um, they’re about $5,000 [01:12:20] per three days. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, that.

Shameek Popat: Was. Yeah. But then I also [01:12:25] did all these, like, junk courses, and then I’ve gone back to mentor, go to symposium. [01:12:30]

Payman Langroudi: So when you say mentor to teach.

Shameek Popat: Yes. So he has mentors at [01:12:35] the back. So once you graduate, uh, after one year, um, you can do an exam. [01:12:40] Uh, there’s an MCQ exam and then there is a case presentation. So you’ve got to treat a [01:12:45] patient for like a big nice rehab. And then you go to present and you get Viva donate. And [01:12:50] then you become a mentor. And then after you’ve mentored a few times, you can also [01:12:55] become a clinical instructor.

Payman Langroudi: And is there like homework? Like, do you have to like after [01:13:00] the three days, do you have to go back and treat a number of cases before you’re allowed to come back. No no [01:13:05] no. Good, good. That would have been too much.

Shameek Popat: That would have [01:13:10] been too much. No no no, no, there isn’t that way. But yeah, it was a life [01:13:15] changing.

Payman Langroudi: Your advice to anyone who wants to do. Let’s call it private dentistry is do something like [01:13:20] that. Absolutely.

Shameek Popat: And without doubt. Yeah. Without doubt. I mean, we [01:13:25] have great educators here as well and stuff, but but, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Learn full mouth. [01:13:30] You’re saying.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, for me, you know, I actually really I was just talking to a young dentist [01:13:35] that I feel for them that they may never get to experience John Kreuz, [01:13:40] Frank Speer, you know, obviously Pete Dawson’s passed away now, so they’ll never hear him speak. These [01:13:45] are giants, you know. Um, that I feel privileged [01:13:50] to have learned from.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but, [01:13:55] you know, there are giants in every era. You know, it’s one of those things that you only know what you know [01:14:00] from when you became active.

Shameek Popat: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly right. So then this practice. [01:14:05] Did it, like, grow in terms of, like, patient numbers, dentist numbers, staff [01:14:10] numbers?

Shameek Popat: Yeah. Just organically. Honestly, you know what? Never did any advertising. It was just word of mouth. [01:14:15]

Payman Langroudi: Uh, but now the treatment was, like, more comprehensive, right?

Shameek Popat: For the for the patients. [01:14:20] I never marketed it. I never if the patient needed it or they were recommended or they [01:14:25] were offered, then. Yes. Um, but I was never [01:14:30] I was, you know, I had a really nice life, really good practice, really [01:14:35] busy. I didn’t, I, you know, I wasn’t chasing, uh, full mouth rehabs [01:14:40] or cosmetic case. Nothing like that. You know, if they came, I would treat them. If they didn’t, I’ll be happy [01:14:45] doing single tooth dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the most lovely way of doing dentistry is to just do the [01:14:50] right thing and just trust the process, you know? Like, it really is. Like, we [01:14:55] often think about this with, um, products. Like, if I, if I want to bring out a new product I have to worry [01:15:00] about. Can I sell it to the dentist? Yeah, but actually, [01:15:05] the real worry is can the dentists sell it to the patient? And because we’re in [01:15:10] this transactional situation of the word sell here, I don’t mean sell. I [01:15:15] mean, you know, you how many years were you in that practice?

Shameek Popat: Oh, I’m 23 [01:15:20] years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well, you’ve been 23 years in a community where people come to you [01:15:25] and visit you and you. The way it ends up is you end up sort of keeping [01:15:30] more people like yourself. They refer people like yourself to you, and it becomes a [01:15:35] family setting you a pillar of that community. It’s not about selling anything to them. It’s about [01:15:40] doing the right thing for them. You know, like feeling hand on heart, you’re doing the right thing. [01:15:45] You know, in the in the transactional conversation sometimes [01:15:50] forget that that’s, you know, the way that most practices are. Right? Someone who’s in a community wants to do [01:15:55] the right thing for us patients. You know, that’s that’s what it is. That’s what’s going on.

Shameek Popat: So that, you know, that [01:16:00] was. I did I did have the sweet spot there and stuff. And obviously, you know, you think you always [01:16:05] got, oh you’re in the right area in the right place and stuff. But you know what? It’s like the Tiger Woods thing. The more I practice, the [01:16:10] easier it gets. That’s what it was. It’s you. You make the practice how you want it to be. [01:16:15] And my team, even though I’ve sold my practice now. [01:16:20]

Payman Langroudi: How many years.

Shameek Popat: Ago? It’s four and a half years ago now. Oh, really? Yeah. This is the fifth [01:16:25] year.

Payman Langroudi: Um, sorry about that.

Shameek Popat: So I’ll just finish what [01:16:30] I’m saying.

Payman Langroudi: Sure.

Shameek Popat: The team members that are there, majority of them, [01:16:35] they’re all they’re 15 years plus.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Shameek Popat: They’re all [01:16:40] there. You know.

Payman Langroudi: That says.

Shameek Popat: A lot. Yeah, I’m a periodontist. In that 20 years. [01:16:45] My hygienist, this was her first job. Then when she started, when she [01:16:50] qualified. And she’s still here 17, 18 years later. Um, well, my receptionist. [01:16:55] Yeah. Uh, still been there.

Payman Langroudi: So being the good [01:17:00] cop at home with your with your kids. Are you the good cop at work with your team as well? And is [01:17:05] there a bad cop?

Shameek Popat: No, I think that’s part of the problem.

Payman Langroudi: You need both, right?

Shameek Popat: And [01:17:10] you need both. Yeah, but we were always good cop. Um, it was an easygoing practice. [01:17:15] Uh, very easygoing practice.

Payman Langroudi: Dentistry lets you write. Then in dentistry, you can. You [01:17:20] can send your kids to private school, go on your holidays per year, and not [01:17:25] be 100% on top of everything. Because it’s it’s [01:17:30] it’s. That’s what I’m saying to you when I say you say it’s hard. I’m saying it’s in that way it’s easy. You know why [01:17:35] your parents were pushing you into it, you know, so that even if things went wrong, you’d be okay. Kind [01:17:40] of, kind of kind of thing.

Shameek Popat: Because my brother wanted, really wanted to be a doctor. But they.

Payman Langroudi: Different. [01:17:45]

Shameek Popat: They they made him become a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Shameek Popat: It’s like it’s got to be an easier, better life. [01:17:50]

Payman Langroudi: I do that, I do that for my kids. My brother’s a doctor. I told you, it’s hard. It’s hard [01:17:55] medicine. It’s is hard, man. Especially here, especially here. So as you see that. Have [01:18:00] you seen those TikToks where they have like anaesthetist one year out of, uh, you know, anaesthetic [01:18:05] school in America and it goes, what are you earning is like, yeah. 1.3 was like, you [01:18:10] know, okay. If you’re if they’re paying dollars like that okay. So it makes.

Shameek Popat: Sense. You’re [01:18:15] right here. It’s yeah. It’s it’s like a hard life almost.

Payman Langroudi: They rely.

[TRANSITION]: On the.

Shameek Popat: Doctors I meet now [01:18:20] that have actually left and they’re doing other things. They’re doing other.

Payman Langroudi: Business relies on the goodwill [01:18:25] of the doctors. The nurses? Yeah. The goodwill of those people is holding [01:18:30] the system up.

Shameek Popat: And, you know, nursing, I think, is still one of the hardest jobs ever. [01:18:35] I did that.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, real nursing. Well.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. Real nursing while I was a dental [01:18:40] student, uh, in the summers, just just to pay off my, uh, nursing inside [01:18:45] a.

Payman Langroudi: Nurse.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, in different hospitals, all of them and stuff. And some of the stories I’ll tell [01:18:50] you. And I would come back absolutely exhausted because, you know, a few [01:18:55] times I actually I did the psychology awards and they, they [01:19:00] mentally and physically exhausting. And I learned a newfound respect for [01:19:05] them.

Payman Langroudi: Social work. Yeah. Imagine you’re a social worker, dude. You have to go into people’s [01:19:10] houses and, and and sometimes assess whether I need to remove the kids from this [01:19:15] house because of abuse or whatever, and still get paid nothing. And [01:19:20] every time something goes wrong, they will blame social workers for.

Shameek Popat: Something.

Payman Langroudi: Like something went [01:19:25] wrong. You know, um.

Shameek Popat: You know, that’s, you know, there’s a blame culture going on at the moment [01:19:30] everywhere. Everyone wants to blame someone.

Payman Langroudi: Uk I find this into it. [01:19:35] Into it over the years. You know, there have been the single moms, uh, [01:19:40] and then, you know, now we’ve got the immigrants and are the people who are on the [01:19:45] dole. You know, people the UK likes to the media and the UK likes to blame. [01:19:50] And then and then the, the, the politicians realise that and then jump onto [01:19:55] one of the blame bits. I’m not sure if it’s in other countries the same, you know. Probably. [01:20:00]

Shameek Popat: Probably because to be grass is never greener. Grass [01:20:05] is never, never, never greener.

Payman Langroudi: What about you?

Payman Langroudi: What about your interest in whisky and gin? [01:20:10]

Shameek Popat: So obviously I’m Indian, so I think [01:20:15] whisky is in my blood. So yeah, I’ve always. Yeah, I think it came from [01:20:20] my father because, you know, in India and stuff in the [01:20:25] evenings, you know, they would they would get the Black Label out with soda and how. Whisky. [01:20:30] So there was all this fascination with whisky and I just. Yeah, I just fell [01:20:35] in love with it. Um, the water of life. And [01:20:40] so we’ve done, I don’t know, during Covid, we did tastings for [01:20:45] gin and whisky. I hosted some nice tastings. Yeah. I, uh, I’ve set up a [01:20:50] Facebook group for the dentistry Whisky Appreciation [01:20:55] Society, uh, with full of dentists who love whisky, which is quite a big group now with [01:21:00] Mike Gow, who’s another whisky aficionado. And, um, I [01:21:05] ended up well, you know, I always wanted to have my own course of whisky [01:21:10] and stuff. So, you know, I thought, I’ll get a few friends together and we’ll we’ll just get a cask and stuff. And the whole thing [01:21:15] then snowballed. And now we have these three carts, 650l [01:21:20] with 58 dentists involved in it, which is all. It’s just been eight years [01:21:25] now, so it’s ready to bottle. So I’m just designing the label and the bottle and stuff.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:21:30] such a creative man.

Shameek Popat: And you know, I’ve done the tastings for it. So it’s already I’m just [01:21:35] going to get it all done now. But it’s time. I’m time poor I’m time.

[TRANSITION]: For.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:21:40] gin. You were going to open a distillery.

[TRANSITION]: At one point.

Shameek Popat: I remember previously when we were going to do one of these [01:21:45] and stuff, and I was like, actually, you know what? I’m going to open this gin distillery. Let’s, let’s [01:21:50] announce it at this thing and stop.

Payman Langroudi: This is why you Ugandans are the master race.

Shameek Popat: So. [01:21:55] Yeah. Um, I again, [01:22:00] it was actually a Covid born idea. I actually had the people, I had the finance, but I only [01:22:05] wanted this one certain venue because, look, there’s there’s 400 gins in the UK, right? So you has to have a [01:22:10] USP. It’s a, it’s a saturated market. But one of my patients had this beautiful grade [01:22:15] one listed building. Did you ever see the drive in cinema event that I [01:22:20] did for the BBC?

Payman Langroudi: I wasn’t there, but I saw it. Yeah, it was beautiful place.

Shameek Popat: That’s that’s the place I was there. That’s my patients [01:22:25] place that I could. That was an amazing event, by the way. That worked out really well. And she [01:22:30] she was on board and stuff, but it’s a grade one listed building, an area [01:22:35] so we can’t build. So the area I wanted is unfortunately on a long term lease with [01:22:40] someone and they don’t want to move because it’s a beautiful area. So we couldn’t get that [01:22:45] place and I didn’t want to just do it anywhere. Um, so I sort [01:22:50] of put the idea on the shelf. I actually did a, uh, gin making diploma. [01:22:55] I learned how to make gin. I’ve got my own. Still at home.

Payman Langroudi: What does your wife say? [01:23:00] You don’t ask permission before you do these sort of things. You just do it.

Shameek Popat: Um.

Payman Langroudi: What is she. Is she just, [01:23:05] like, up for your. You know?

Shameek Popat: No, she does get mad a little bit. She goes, yeah, yeah, because poor girl. I [01:23:10] do feel for her because she never knows when, like, like she’s [01:23:15] opened the door and a trailer is turned up with a tuk tuk on it. Yeah. And she was like, [01:23:20] what the hell is that? So I never told her because she would never let me do it. Right. It’s easier to, uh. [01:23:25]

Payman Langroudi: Apologise.

Shameek Popat: Apologise later and do something, um, or a painting. You know, [01:23:30] I got this beautiful Buddha painting that I fell in love with. Made a little booties and stuff. It turned up, um, [01:23:35] at the house or something. Or the other will do it. So. Yeah, I don’t know how she’s put up with me. [01:23:40] Um.

Payman Langroudi: Are you paying back in handbags? Definitely. [01:23:45]

Shameek Popat: Yes. Yes, you got it.

Payman Langroudi: That’s funny. [01:23:50]

Shameek Popat: Yeah. Yeah. That’s funny.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move on to disruptive. Oh, actually, [01:23:55] I do want to hear about the sale.

Shameek Popat: Of the practice.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:24:00] The let’s go into, like, the feeling of loss when it was gone. Or did you not feel that? [01:24:05]

Shameek Popat: No, I felt the loss. Oh, my God, this time. This is my. This is my fourth trial, right? But [01:24:10] you’re still here. Actually, this is my oldest child, so I.

Payman Langroudi: Actually. This [01:24:15] does feel like a child.

Shameek Popat: Oh my God. Yeah, yeah.

Shameek Popat: So I actually likened it to giving away [01:24:20] your daughter at a wedding. Yeah. It’s a very bittersweet moment. You [01:24:25] know, you have to do it. It’s a rite of passage or something, but you don’t [01:24:30] have to like it. Um, so it was tough. The first year was tough, [01:24:35] but now. Oh, my God, I’m happy as Larry.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Shameek Popat: Absolutely. Absolutely. [01:24:40] Yeah. Best decision I did. It’s allowed me to do other things like tooth angel [01:24:45] and disruptive.

Payman Langroudi: What about the decision making process within the process, or are they less [01:24:50] fair about that? Like when you when you want to do something at a practice, do [01:24:55] you have to get permission from Portland dentists?

Shameek Popat: You know.

Shameek Popat: It’s calcium. I said I’m [01:25:00] sorry. I’m sorry. Um, to certain extent, yes, of course [01:25:05] it’s their business and stuff. So it becomes a bit more of a flower. You have to have a business plan if you want things and stuff. [01:25:10] Like one of the Ms. machine. So we had to jump through a few hoops to get it.

Shameek Popat: But you know what?

Shameek Popat: They’ve [01:25:15] been great. They’ve been good. They’ve been good bosses actually, um, they’ve left us [01:25:20] to be, um, they’re actually a really good company and good people.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:25:25] they don’t get involved in decisions that you don’t have to get too much like. I’m sure they’ll [01:25:30] piss you off if that was the case.

Shameek Popat: Maybe a little bit. But, you know, because.

Payman Langroudi: You had your.

[BOTH]: Opinion, [01:25:35] they’ve been really good.

Shameek Popat: To me. I can’t I cannot, um, say anything otherwise. [01:25:40] They’ve been really, really good to me. So I’ve been very happy.

Payman Langroudi: In the moment of selling right the next day, when you were feeling that [01:25:45] loss, did you always. I know you said bittersweet, right? What about the sweet side? Did you feel like achievement? [01:25:50]

Shameek Popat: Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, you it is. It’s like you’ve grown [01:25:55] something that someone wants and they’ve paid good money for it. Um, [01:26:00] and also, you know, the relief that. Hang on. Okay. Now, I don’t have to worry about [01:26:05] air admin. None of that. You know, I can [01:26:10] just do what I do best is go in, treat the patients and leave and not [01:26:15] have to worry about anything.

Payman Langroudi: That must be nice.

Shameek Popat: So that was a good feeling as well. But [01:26:20] it was. It’s also difficult to let go as well. Yeah. So I think the first year probably um, [01:26:25] maybe I was you know, they probably thought, oh my God, is he going to be difficult or not or something. [01:26:30] But you know, since then it’s just been great.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move on to disruptive. What [01:26:35] is.

Shameek Popat: It? So the [01:26:40] mission for disruptive is. Elevating dentistry, whether [01:26:45] that’s through. High quality materials or [01:26:50] the clinical training provided. We want to disrupt the market [01:26:55] so that the product and the practice match so that [01:27:00] dentists don’t just buy better, but they work better.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:27:05]

Shameek Popat: Okay. There’s a lot of things out there that we end up buying. Yeah. And [01:27:10] stuff. But we don’t use because we don’t know how to use it properly. We don’t know what to do. So we want to mar that together [01:27:15] so that whenever it’s something they buy from us, we’re going to train them to use it properly [01:27:20] so it’s not wasted. So for example.

Payman Langroudi: Composite.

Shameek Popat: Composite. So yeah our main product is [01:27:25] Inspira. Um and that’s diabetes. Um [01:27:30] composite. Um, and yeah, at the bond conference [01:27:35] they approached us to say, you know, they wanted to see if they can get a distributor and whether [01:27:40] we would be interested as well. And we were like, I hadn’t thought of that. Um, [01:27:45] but suddenly that sounded like, okay, do you know what the, [01:27:50] uh, the red car theory is?

Payman Langroudi: Red car, when you see it once and you see it everywhere. [01:27:55] Yeah.

Shameek Popat: So, for example. Yeah. How many red cars did you notice on the way here? No, no, no, [01:28:00] but if I say if I say I gave you £50 for every red car you notice on the way back. Yeah, you’ll notice [01:28:05] quite a few, right. Yeah. It’s like opportunities.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: There’s loads of opportunities out there. But [01:28:10] because we’re not looking at them, we’re not focussed on them and stuff. We keep on missing that. But [01:28:15] suddenly when you’re focussed and you’re looking for opportunities and stuff, they just keep on coming [01:28:20] to you. And then this is what’s happening every week. I’m getting an opportunity and it’s like, wow, [01:28:25] it gets yeah to too many and stuff. And you go to pick and choose and stuff. But this, this just seemed [01:28:30] a really good match actually. Um, because, you [01:28:35] know, I’ve used a composite, I’ve trained under DDA again. Really. You know, love him as [01:28:40] an educator. A really nice guy with a good product. And then, you know, I did [01:28:45] a little bit of research on it and stuff and then suddenly thought, hang on, did you Pascal, [01:28:50] Andrew, Chandra, Pal, Govinda, Chris or Tarek [01:28:55] Bashir, Joe Bansal, Junaid Malik, they’re [01:29:00] all using this composite, but there’s nothing in the UK actually getting it out [01:29:05] to the dentists who want to use it. Um, and so [01:29:10] yeah, me and Andrew thought this would be a really good idea, good opportunity to do something with it. Um, [01:29:15] and we created disruptive smiles and then suddenly we’ve got other [01:29:20] people saying, would you like to distribute this.

Payman Langroudi: For other things?

Shameek Popat: Yeah. Well, the idea [01:29:25] would be everything composite. Okay. Yeah. So just to make it easy, one top stop [01:29:30] shop, um, for everything composite.

Payman Langroudi: And what did I tell you?

Shameek Popat: It’s [01:29:35] going to be really hard.

Payman Langroudi: Big health warning on composite [01:29:40] man. Big health warning on it.

Shameek Popat: Look, nothing. Nothing is [01:29:45] easy.

Payman Langroudi: No no no no.

Shameek Popat: Of course nothing is easy. Right. And and [01:29:50] you know, if you don’t try it, you’ll always have regrets. And I hate regrets.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:29:55] but look, why is it that you [01:30:00] have to leave my Cosmo side to one side? My Cosmo, the part of the business [01:30:05] to one side. Because you can call that 650 products. Yeah, but that was one one [01:30:10] handshake. It was 650. But. But why is it that I haven’t brought out? [01:30:15] I don’t know, tasty toothpaste or fluoride [01:30:20] free? Yeah. Why is it I haven’t done it yet. Why? Because. [01:30:25] Because bandwidth wise for me. Now, you you you may be way more [01:30:30] like. Like someone like Connor Bryant. Yeah. I just see him as a much, much [01:30:35] more like energetic businessman than me. Yeah. So Conor could can [01:30:40] do. Yeah. Loops and chairs and software. Yeah. And he can [01:30:45] pull it off, and he can talk to the right people and do it like he can.

Shameek Popat: He can’t.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Maybe you can too. Maybe [01:30:50] you can too, dude. Yeah. But I’m just saying that, you know, difficult. [01:30:55] Difficult. Because now now we’ve got this at B2C and we’ve got that at B2B. [01:31:00] And all you need now is one of these enlightened B2B B2C.

[BOTH]: Just [01:31:05] just to finish you off completely. That thing and stuff.

Payman Langroudi: No, [01:31:10] but but we did talk about it. And I said it’s a very unique opportunity because [01:31:15] if it is a good product. Dda is a good teacher. And [01:31:20] it’s it’s not like starting something completely from, from new. So and and you are in [01:31:25] in B2B. You are very strong. Yeah. It’s just unfortunate. This is a B2C product. That’s [01:31:30] kind of what I was saying to you about that in B2B. You are very strong. So good [01:31:35] on you. Um. You’re going to do what? Courses and sell materials at the course is correct. [01:31:40]

Shameek Popat: Yeah. No. Absolutely. Um, so, yeah, it’s just been great. Um, again, doing the branding, [01:31:45] the website, the website design’s done. It’ll be going to the developers tomorrow. Um, [01:31:50] and then hopefully as soon as they get it up and running, uh, it’ll be live. So [01:31:55] it’s it’s exciting. And, you know, uh, Manuela. Christina, there’s [01:32:00] such good people, um, to work with, really nice people. And like I said, [01:32:05] you know, before, um, it’s not the products people buy. People.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:32:10] And it’s always good to know with with the supplier that they’re not going to sort of screw you over. [01:32:15]

Shameek Popat: No, no. And it’s a good product.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. And but also the other way around. He’s it’s good for him [01:32:20] to know you’re not going to screw him over.

[BOTH]: Yeah, absolutely.

Shameek Popat: They’re not going to make any composite. [01:32:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. When the starting point is that, you know, you can [01:32:30] you end up. Depends on who you are, right? So Prav can do business with anyone. He’s [01:32:35] just.

[BOTH]: Strong. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He can sit and partner with Tom, Dick or Harry. Yeah, [01:32:40] and he’ll get. He’ll make sure. He’ll make sure everything is absolutely correct. And the likes of me [01:32:45] and you, we want to know that we know the people we’re dealing with and. And [01:32:50] that’s.

Shameek Popat: Absolutely correct.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s a strength and a big weakness as well. Yeah. You know, it means you limit [01:32:55] your opportunities, your your partners, your investors, your, you know, but it’s just who you are. And [01:33:00] it’s like going against who you are as the era in life. I think, you know, at least [01:33:05] you come to a point of knowing who you are, that there’s a big point in itself, right? [01:33:10]

[BOTH]: No, I totally.

Shameek Popat: Agree with you there. Yeah, absolutely. Um, [01:33:15] I mean, like I said to you, every week I’m getting like, do you want [01:33:20] to do this? Can you partner up with this and stuff? And you got to pick and choose.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:33:25] It’s difficult. It’s difficult because, like, what it is, is in the [01:33:30] joy of the idea. The the you remember that? [01:33:35] You don’t remember that. That the dip that happens as soon as you start. And then as [01:33:40] that in that dip, you come to learn, okay, I’m going to lean in.

Shameek Popat: Into [01:33:45] the.

[BOTH]: Deep.

Payman Langroudi: Lean, lean into the dip. And that’s when costs [01:33:50] start mounting. Yeah. And then it’s like, you know what we [01:33:55] were saying? Like the worst mistake you can make in the world is to have a slow failure. Yeah, [01:34:00] a fast failure, a slow failure. It takes years of [01:34:05] your life and money as well.

[BOTH]: And.

Payman Langroudi: Drains you. And I’ve been there, I’ve been there, [01:34:10] I’ve been there. Like in the beginning of enlightenment. God, man, I, you know, difficult. [01:34:15] Um, so good luck with it, Matt.

[BOTH]: Let’s just say thank you. We’ll see. [01:34:20]

Shameek Popat: So, yeah, we just launched the Instagram, um, disruptive smiles. [01:34:25] So smiles. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I’m a follower.

Shameek Popat: Follow. Oh. You follow?

Payman Langroudi: I’m [01:34:30] already. I’m already a follower.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. Excellent.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so when’s the first event?

Shameek Popat: Um, [01:34:35] we’re looking at probably end of September. Beginning of October. Coming September? Yeah. Oh, [01:34:40] really? Hopefully, if we can pull it off.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, and Wednesday coming.

Shameek Popat: Or is [01:34:45] it not? No, no, he will next year. Yeah, absolutely. The day will come. Um. So, yeah. You’re going to love [01:34:50] our first educator. I won’t tell you just yet because it’s not [01:34:55] here. Oh, because it’s too soon for this year.

Payman Langroudi: So next year, September [01:35:00] is not Andy.

Shameek Popat: Andy will be doing one as well, but someone else. Wait [01:35:05] and see.

Payman Langroudi: Is it? [01:35:10] Oh, what a traitor.

Shameek Popat: Oh! [01:35:15]

Payman Langroudi: I’m joking. Excellent. [01:35:20] Excellent.

Shameek Popat: No, I mean, what a cool girl. What a cool educator. Good [01:35:25] teacher. Yeah. Good. I’m really excited about it. I’m really excited about it. [01:35:30]

Payman Langroudi: We like to talk about mistakes. Let’s get to that. The darker part. The darker part of the pod. [01:35:35] It’s a bit late in the day, but I want to hear about clinical errors. What comes [01:35:40] to mind when I say clinical error?

Shameek Popat: So I love the question because [01:35:45] you learn more from failures than things going right. Yeah. And [01:35:50] one of my favourite quotes is [01:35:55] good judgement comes from experience. [01:36:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: An experience. Well, that comes from poor judgement.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah it’s [01:36:05] nice.

Shameek Popat: But mistakes wise. [01:36:10] Oh, I’ll tell you a funny one, actually. Um, this is more [01:36:15] early in my career. Um, I think in the first five years or something. [01:36:20] Um, of qualifying, uh, the the practice. And, [01:36:25] um, you know, I had a patient who had one of the patients, really fussy patients now making a full denture. Uh, [01:36:30] and I put one on. You know, we were on, like, probably the fifth, sixth try in, you know, [01:36:35] double mirrors, everything and stuff. And and finally she goes, yeah, [01:36:40] I like it. This is fine. All good. It was brilliant. Let’s get it. Send it off to [01:36:45] be completed. She came back two weeks later. You know, the nurse [01:36:50] handed me the denture. Popped it in? Yeah. Looks good. Bite. Checked it. Checked [01:36:55] the bite. Everything’s good. I like couldn’t wait. Go, go before you find something [01:37:00] goes. Two hours later, we got a call. I [01:37:05] was having a hot cup of tea, and my teeth are falling out and the dentures melted. [01:37:10]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Shameek Popat: It was still in wax.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:37:15] trying.

Shameek Popat: Well, we don’t know what happened, whether it never got [01:37:20] sent back or they sent it back without finishing it and stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, it wasn’t trying. It was fit. It was fit, [01:37:25] but it was in wax.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, it was still in wax. It was supposed to be a fit stage.

Payman Langroudi: How interesting.

Shameek Popat: And it was so [01:37:30] obviously. Oh my God, I was glad to, like, remake it and stuff. And I never heard the end of it. Um, [01:37:35] from my practice, it was like, yeah, no, I’m not.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not going to.

Shameek Popat: Say no, no, no, no, that [01:37:40] was funny.

Payman Langroudi: I like a good story.

Shameek Popat: But that was a good story.

Shameek Popat: I’ll tell you. You know, you [01:37:45] may not realise, but I’m a good dentist. I’ve done I’ve, I’ve been, you know, I’ve always [01:37:50] stayed in my lane. I’ve never tried to do things that I can’t do and stuff. So [01:37:55] I’ve never really had.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, listen, listen, let’s talk about a mistake.

Shameek Popat: No, no, I’m going to tell you one. Oh [01:38:00] okay. No, no, I’m going to tell you one. I’m going to tell you one which is right. So this [01:38:05] was again quite a few years back actually. Um, actually not [01:38:10] so long after I’d gone to my first choice symposium. Um, which I’ll lead you into it, but [01:38:15] it was when we were doing, you know, um, cement retaining plants, not [01:38:20] screw retaining plants and stuff. So, you know, I’ve done the try and occlusion and stuff. And, [01:38:25] um, I was taking the Qur’an out to be able to put it in with retrieve cement. Now, [01:38:30] this patient is like big lips, lots of saliva, big tongue, [01:38:35] floppy everywhere and stuff, and nervous and fidgety. And as I was taking [01:38:40] it out, the crown just flew out and we couldn’t find out. [01:38:45]

Payman Langroudi: I swallowed, swallowed it.

Shameek Popat: He says, oh, I think I may have swallowed. And I think, [01:38:50] oh my God. So obviously we set him up. We say, all [01:38:55] right, you know, we’re gonna have to send you to an.

Payman Langroudi: X-ray.

Shameek Popat: Just to check for X-rays and stuff. And he [01:39:00] goes, no, I’m not going to wait a day. And he. And I’m pretty sure I saw it and stuff. I said, like, no, I said, I’ve got [01:39:05] to send you. Right. And you’re just saying, no, I can’t be bothered. So I said, okay, what [01:39:10] you have to do is I gave him some gloves and masks [01:39:15] and stuff. You’re gonna have to, like, look for it when you go to the toilet, because [01:39:20] otherwise you have to go for an x ray and bless him. He actually [01:39:25] called back the next day. Done it. Doggy bag founder. But that was [01:39:30] a sleepless night and the reason it was a [01:39:35] sleepless night is at the symposium, and it [01:39:40] was literally my first or second one. It was about clinical errors. And one [01:39:45] of the clinical instructors, I won’t name him, but an amazing guy did [01:39:50] the most emotional presentation that I’ve ever seen where [01:39:55] he talked about, because I think they do a lot of sedation that [01:40:00] he was treating, um, a lady. But they were friends. They were family, friends [01:40:05] and stuff. Um, and he was doing an implant and [01:40:10] there was a cover screw, and he dropped the cover screw. Um, and, you [01:40:15] know, they had to send it off, and it was down her lungs, and they couldn’t retrieve it. [01:40:20] So you had to call the husband and let him know and things. [01:40:25] And they had to operate. Take a little piece of lung out. Um, to get it [01:40:30] six months later. They’re try and do it again. And [01:40:35] guess what.

Payman Langroudi: Happened.

Shameek Popat: Again? It happened again.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Shameek Popat: He [01:40:40] said it was the most difficult phone call he ever had to [01:40:45] make to the husband.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my God.

Shameek Popat: But luckily, this [01:40:50] time they managed to retrieve it without having to operate well. But. [01:40:55] And he’s told this story 2 or 3 times in symposiums and stuff. So it’s not, [01:41:00] you know, probably one, you know, made him want to give up dentistry. [01:41:05] Thought he wasn’t good enough. Everything but his friends, family, everyone rallied [01:41:10] around him and he continued. And, you know, he’s still an amazing dentist. [01:41:15] Still practising. And I mean, I’m not doing [01:41:20] the story justice. But when he said it, you know, people were crying. You know, he got a standing [01:41:25] ovation and stuff. But he told the story about the two [01:41:30] wolves. It’s a Cherokee tale. Have you heard it? No. I [01:41:35] love that story so much. I actually used it at my parent’s [01:41:40] 45th wedding anniversary, which was her last [01:41:45] anniversary before she passed away through leukaemia. But [01:41:50] the Two Wolves story was about an [01:41:55] old Cherokee Indian walking with his grandson, and he’s telling [01:42:00] his grandson that there’s two wolves inside us, constantly [01:42:05] battling. The first wolf. Is [01:42:10] hate and we greed [01:42:15] Fearful. And then the second wolf battling is [01:42:20] good, hopeful, humble and wants good [01:42:25] things. And the [01:42:30] grandson asks the granddad, which Wolf wins. The granddad [01:42:35] says, the one you feed, all right. And [01:42:40] the way it related to my mom was, is [01:42:45] obviously she had leukaemia. And we were like, [01:42:50] my brother and I and my father, we were like scared, worried. We were researching. [01:42:55] We wanted to send her on a plane to New York to [01:43:00] have treatment, but she didn’t want that. She was feeding the good wolf, saying, no, [01:43:05] I want to spend time with my children, with my family, and enjoy what I have. And [01:43:10] that’s what we ended up doing. Um, obviously. But [01:43:15] we were constantly feeding the wrong wolf. And, you know, that’s what he was doing as well, feeding [01:43:20] the wrong wolf till his friends and family put him into the right wolf pathway. [01:43:25] So, you know, it’s always about feeding the gold wolf. You know, it’s all [01:43:30] in your head.

Payman Langroudi: How long did it take for your mom?

Shameek Popat: Um, [01:43:35] two years. Two years from. Yeah. Out of the blue.

Payman Langroudi: And you saw her declining? [01:43:40]

Shameek Popat: I mean, yes, but, you know, luckily it wasn’t. Uh, [01:43:45] yeah, it was painful and it was bad and stuff. Um, but, [01:43:50] yeah, it wasn’t something we were expecting. And she was quite young. So. Yeah. It [01:43:55] was.

Payman Langroudi: How old was.

Shameek Popat: She? 68.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Shameek Popat: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. [01:44:00] Super young. So, how old were you? Um, which [01:44:05] year was, like, ten years?

Shameek Popat: Yeah. Yeah, it was 2013. She passed. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’m sorry.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. [01:44:10] Yeah yeah, yeah. So I think, yeah, we which sort of went past the, um, [01:44:15] the story. But yeah, that’s why I’d heard that story [01:44:20] and what had happened and everything. And then obviously the same thing happened to my patient and the same flashbacks and everything. What, you [01:44:25] know, what? It was sort of. And we had to leave.

Payman Langroudi: It had had more significance to you than of significance. [01:44:30]

Shameek Popat: Um, as well.

Payman Langroudi: I would like to. I don’t want to hear a mistake, but like, [01:44:35] like a, almost like a realisation when you’re doing full [01:44:40] mouth dentistry that there’s a certain something clicks in your head and it’s [01:44:45] normally it’s due to a failure that something clicks in your head. Like, I don’t know, [01:44:50] just for the sake of argument, when I was doing the Rosenthal stuff that, you know, proximal staining [01:44:55] of a veneer, you know, like, of course, you know, later when you found out, you should have prepped it a little bit [01:45:00] further, that elbow, you think, well, whatever it was. Yeah. But in that moment I was like, oh shit, [01:45:05] I can’t just go around drilling everything off, because back then we were very drill happy. Yeah. And [01:45:10] and you know, it stained within a two years or something. And I was like, God damn it. You know, like I’ve [01:45:15] done something and I had it, you know? So what was there? Was there something in your mouth, [01:45:20] the industry that something clicked in your head regarding platoon [01:45:25] planning, the actual execution, patient management. You know, as someone who’s done [01:45:30] so many, you must do.

Shameek Popat: So. I mean, look, to me, [01:45:35] one of the most important things that I actually do, and I [01:45:40] learned actually, and maybe I think that was probably through a mistake and stuff, um, was [01:45:45] I don’t know if you read the checklist manifesto.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Shameek Popat: So whenever I do something [01:45:50] like that, I do a checklist so that nothing gets forgotten. Yeah. You [01:45:55] know, everything goes anything. So I’ll have a checklist, and my assistant [01:46:00] would have it, and we would just checklist so that everything would not be, you know, because [01:46:05] there are times where I’ve forgotten the stump shade or I forgot on certain bites and stuff. Um, but [01:46:10] I have it. So whenever I’m doing, like, a rehab and stuff, I would probably actually, I’d, I’d do [01:46:15] it, you know, over two days. You know, we’ll do one arch one day, one arch the [01:46:20] other day.

Payman Langroudi: Follow your checklist.

Shameek Popat: Follow my checklist. Yeah. I have a nice little [01:46:25] checklist with, um, a b a b, you know, all the bits and everything that I do [01:46:30] are all labelled. Everything’s done. Is that been done? Yes. Has that been done? Yes. [01:46:35]

Payman Langroudi: It’s a nice tip.

Shameek Popat: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You should you should upload that to [01:46:40] your voice and say, hey, give this to all your students.

Shameek Popat: No. [01:46:45] So no, that’s, you know, so my nurse knows everything, you know, even when you’re doing fits [01:46:50] and staff checklist that this is the order that it goes in.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:46:55]

Shameek Popat: Nice man. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Final questions.

Shameek Popat: Go for it. [01:47:00]

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy dinner party. Three guests. Dead or alive.

Shameek Popat: Um, [01:47:05] to be honest, I only need one.

Payman Langroudi: Mom. [01:47:10]

Shameek Popat: Yeah, yeah. On it. Just to have a [01:47:15] nice cup of masala chai and just sit with her. [01:47:20] And just to let her know that, you know, she’s worried about my [01:47:25] brother who wasn’t married at that stage. Whether I know that he’s married with an amazing wife. [01:47:30] He has a seven year old granddaughter. That is the apple of my dad’s. [01:47:35] You know, the granddaughter is the apple of my dad. Um, our kids are thriving. [01:47:40] Doing so well, um, at university. Um. Good family. [01:47:45] We’re fine. And that is okay. That is fine. So it would just lie so [01:47:50] that, you know, she has that piece.

Payman Langroudi: I’d [01:47:55] like to leave it there. You know.

Shameek Popat: It’s. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:48:00] hard to leave it there. Do you believe she’s looking down?

Shameek Popat: Yeah, [01:48:05] definitely. I hope so. I love the fact they looked up. Uh, [01:48:10] no. It’s. You know, it’s important. I think that’s that’s [01:48:15] part of the whole thing about Uganda nations and stuff. You [01:48:20] know, family values, community values, education, you [01:48:25] know, work ethic. It all comes. I don’t know if, you know, um, in [01:48:30] the for the graduates and stuff, out of the 191 Indian billionaires, [01:48:35] 109 are Gujarati. There are they [01:48:40] makes 5 to 6% of the population, but they control 60% of the overseas business.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:48:45] right.

Shameek Popat: That’s quite something.

Payman Langroudi: But then the Sikhs [01:48:50] are pretty strong in business too.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, yeah there are.

Payman Langroudi: I had a friend, uh, he was, uh. [01:48:55] Cindy. My God, man, those guys knew what [01:49:00] they were talking about. All of them. It’s a small community, though. But, yeah, I mean, I [01:49:05] call you guys the master race. I keep telling you. But [01:49:10] it’s been a massive pleasure. It really has. I knew it would be, but it’s been a massive pleasure. Thank [01:49:15] you so much for being so open as well.

Shameek Popat: No thank you. You know, I really enjoyed it. And you’re an amazing host. [01:49:20]

Payman Langroudi: Great.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:49:25] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:49:30] Your hosts, Payman Langroudi [01:49:35] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you [01:49:40] got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay [01:49:45] for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guests had to say, because [01:49:50] I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [01:49:55] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value [01:50:00] out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating. [01:50:05]

[VOICE]: This is [00:00:05] Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go [00:00:10] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:15] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:00:20]

Prav Solanki: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Dental Leaders podcast. [00:00:25] On this particular episode, we capture a conversation between Kailash Solanki, my [00:00:30] brother, and Dev Patel. Having discussions around how Kiss [00:00:35] Dental has evolved over the last 20 years, this is a fly in the wall conversation [00:00:40] between the two of them that captures the essence of how it all started. [00:00:45] What has happened since and what the future is. [00:00:50] Without further ado, Kailash and Dev.

Dev Patel: I’m [00:00:55] Doctor Dev Patel. I’m the CEO of Dental Beauty Partners. Really excited today to meet with Doctor Kayla [00:01:00] Solanki, one of our key partners up in northwest who has been expanding the Kis dental [00:01:05] brand. And this year is a 25th anniversary. So, okay, um, you’ve obviously [00:01:10] set up this then to over 20 years ago now. Tell me how you first started the first practice.

Kailesh Solanki: And [00:01:15] so from 2005, I was working as a I had just finished, just started [00:01:20] as an associate ship and then Stockport and then just kind of wanted my own thing, really. [00:01:25] And so I found a clinic. Everyone told me not to buy it. So that was like [00:01:30] my, my career, like, let’s buy it then. And um, and so yeah, it was in Flixton, it [00:01:35] was um, just like a little suburb. The main thing that was around that area was [00:01:40] it was great for motorways. There was big motorway right next to the practice, and then it [00:01:45] was right at the Trafford Centre. And for me it was just that one big landmark [00:01:50] that I could say we’re close to this. Um, we’re not right in the city centre. We’ve got loads [00:01:55] of parking and then and come and see us? And so that was my play back then. And it was just [00:02:00] like, that’s kind of how I thought I wanted to do dentistry and not be in a city [00:02:05] centre environment originally, just be good quality dentistry in a suburban [00:02:10] area that everyone can can access. Really.

Dev Patel: And obviously you did it literally a year after or [00:02:15] two years after graduating, which is very early for most young dentists. So why did you take the leap so quickly?

Kailesh Solanki: I mean, [00:02:20] I am I kind of have always, always been into business. So when even when I was a at school, [00:02:25] I kind of helped my dad when he’s kind of sharp. Um, and then, you know, went to university. [00:02:30] I ran a computer business. Um, and so I kind of was that Wayne [00:02:35] Klein wouldn’t say an entrepreneur. That’s not going to work.

Dev Patel: Yeah, definitely.

Kailesh Solanki: Definitely. But I’d say I was just kind of [00:02:40] always wanting to kind of do something, make money somewhere, um, and find where to find what [00:02:45] I was good at and kind of work it. And then dentistry was just that next, that next level for me, [00:02:50] you know, I decided that that was what my career choice was. And so I just wanted to make a [00:02:55] career out of dentistry and make it a business that was viable and provided me. [00:03:00] I suppose the lifestyle. I’m on it. Really? Yeah.

Dev Patel: It’s obviously a big risk, though, and a big investment from [00:03:05] such a young age and going fully private without the guarantee of the NHS. So why did you decide to go fully private? [00:03:10]

Kailesh Solanki: Um, I do like lots of private courses. I’ve done, like all the Paul Tipton courses [00:03:15] and I’ve done lots of kind of courses abroad. And it just kind of [00:03:20] made me realise that, especially dentistry wise, it wasn’t really about going [00:03:25] private or staying in the NHS, it was just providing what I wanted to provide for the patient. And obviously [00:03:30] private dentistry leads itself really easily for me to do that. So when I set my [00:03:35] clinical, it was always going to be this is the this is what we want to provide. These are the [00:03:40] the treatments I want to do. Um, and this is how I want to benefit my patients. [00:03:45] And so ultimately, I couldn’t work in the room of the NHS by doing [00:03:50] that. Yeah. And so for me it was it was a big risk I think, you know, as back a [00:03:55] million quids worth of debt.

Dev Patel: That’s amazing. Yeah, yeah, it’s going to be expensive, right?

Kailesh Solanki: It was it was wasn’t cheap. Yeah. He [00:04:00] bought the clinic. I think it was about half £1 million, probably about half £1 million into a refurb. And [00:04:05] God took it out all on loans and all on kind of, you know, finance [00:04:10] to my eyeballs. Really? Yeah. And and. Yeah. Like your [00:04:15] young guy, you think you’re like, you’re fearless. Like nothing’s going to touch you. And so you [00:04:20] kind of do these things. But I do it again. I don’t know. It’s it’s it’s hard when you’re older and you’ve [00:04:25] got commitments and stuff like that. But back then I didn’t have as much. Um, so if I was [00:04:30] going to lose everything, what was the. What would I lose? Do you know what I mean?

Dev Patel: True entrepreneur man.

Kailesh Solanki: No no no [00:04:35] no. Take those risks like but and and. Yeah. You know, there was some hairy moments. Don’t [00:04:40] get me wrong. You know, moments where I thought, oh, this could go down the pan. Really? Yeah. [00:04:45] Um, but yeah, you know, you know, we’re 20 years on now and and amazing. It’s it’s [00:04:50] all paid off and, you know, took those risks and, and and it’s worked out but but yeah, it’s [00:04:55] it’s been, it’s been ups and downs definitely.

Dev Patel: I can imagine. And obviously you said obviously it’s been 20 [00:05:00] years on then. So what’s the key to longevity for you. I mean how have you kept, you know, so successful [00:05:05] and become one of the best brands in the UK and still one of the best bands in the UK even after 20 years? [00:05:10]

Kailesh Solanki: I think like for me, success is like my team. Um, and I would [00:05:15] say the strongest thing that kiss has got going for it is having a really consistent [00:05:20] long term team. You know, I’ve got members of my team, um, you know, 20 years old, [00:05:25] still young and now and essentially, you know, I’ve still got three, 3 [00:05:30] or 4 team members that have still been with me right from the start. Yeah. Um, and still the people [00:05:35] you can rely on, you know, everything’s great when everything’s great, when the shit hits the fan, it’s really [00:05:40] important to have certain kind of key people that you can say, we need to level up here. [00:05:45] We, you know, we need to knuckle down and we need to ensure that this business is going to do what we needed to do and [00:05:50] to rely on people like, you know, you’re not a lone Ranger, especially as your business grows. [00:05:55] You’ve got to understand that, you know, you have to rely on people. You have to delegate. You have to kind [00:06:00] of understand that it’s not all about me. And, and, and having that ability to, to have [00:06:05] those really key team members and trust them and, and rely upon them is a real key aspect. [00:06:10]

Dev Patel: Definitely. I think we can definitely feel that whenever you come over to kiss and meet the team members, they all like big [00:06:15] family, basically, right? And it’s just even though you’re growing, it still feels the same thing, which is great. What what would you say [00:06:20] has been the most difficult kind of year then? I’m assuming for the first, maybe 2008 was a good, difficult [00:06:25] year for you guys. Was that like, you know, to be honest.

Kailesh Solanki: Yes. No, it actually wasn’t. Oh yeah. So for [00:06:30] us, like I would probably say our initial growth okay. Because you know, it’s easy [00:06:35] now you’re 20 years on and you have a plan. And we open a new clinic and with obviously the [00:06:40] help of, of yourselves and it’s it’s structured, it’s well governed like [00:06:45] we’ve, we’ve tried and tested all these different marketing methods and. Yeah. And so we’ve got it. We’ve [00:06:50] got it. And really I would say we’re pretty solid. You know, you start a new business like that, you [00:06:55] know a little bit wet behind the ears, not really knowing what’s going on. People are coming at you use [00:07:00] us for marketing. Let’s do this. Let’s do that. You kind of look really back then [00:07:05] as well. You didn’t know what worked.

Dev Patel: Yeah. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Of course. And so the expenditure to get yourself [00:07:10] out there to, to be a brand, to be visual in an area, [00:07:15] it costs a lot of money. Yeah. And it got to probably about 2000 and I [00:07:20] would say 2007 before the financial crisis. And I remember these bills were coming in [00:07:25] and I was like, this is killing us. Like whatever money we’re making, kind of doing [00:07:30] the dentistry, we’re spending so much to kind of be visual. And [00:07:35] it almost bankrupt us, to be honest. You know, we got to a point where, you know, we were getting [00:07:40] 150 K worth of bills in back then on marketing. [00:07:45] Wow. In a three month period. And you’re scratching your head thinking, [00:07:50] how am I going to afford this? How am I going to pay for this? Um, but also in the same breath, without [00:07:55] that marketing spend, we weren’t getting the influx of the people we needed in. So [00:08:00] we were in a real catch 22 situation, and then it kind of hits over a curve [00:08:05] and then it starts to really self propagate. Yeah. And you can get past that. [00:08:10] You kind of then you’re laughing. You laugh it. And by 2008 to be honest, even [00:08:15] though the financial crisis hit, it was a reasonably strong year for us. And 2009 was. [00:08:20] And then from that point, because everything was self propagating, everything was [00:08:25] working for marketing, more word of mouth was coming through. You know, business takes [00:08:30] time to grow and word of mouth is great. Slope. Yeah. Of course that was now growing. [00:08:35] And so now we’re in 2009, 2010. And I’m purchasing another clinic and [00:08:40] another clinic because we’ve got that brand presence. We’ve got that awareness in [00:08:45] the Greater Manchester in the northwest area. And so for us it was more that [00:08:50] it was more growing. Initially, the initial growth, the speedy [00:08:55] growth that I kind of wanted was what almost kind of finished was really.

Dev Patel: I think it’s uh, it’s, [00:09:00] you know, whether you realise it or not, it’s probably one of the first real brands in the UK. And [00:09:05] back then obviously spend that much money even in this day and age, you know, 20 years on for [00:09:10] marketing costs. And one clinic with 3 or 4 surgeries is a huge risk. Yeah. And people will say you’re [00:09:15] crazy probably at the time. But, you know, it’s, uh, you know, it’s a really, you know, visionary thing to be doing [00:09:20] and that far, far, far ahead of the time. Right. And I think obviously, you know, there was a period where your brother came on board [00:09:25] as well. And obviously he helped with the marketing, how that kind of changed things.

Kailesh Solanki: So to be, to be honest, my brother, [00:09:30] um, obviously, you know, he won’t mind me saying he’s very highly educated, but that’s what the [00:09:35] doctor, you know, discovered something about the heart. I mean, like, [00:09:40] you know, I don’t think we’re actually biological brothers.

Dev Patel: I don’t think so.

Kailesh Solanki: Even on the basis of those [00:09:45] things. But ultimately, you know, he came back from university and he was probably going to live there, [00:09:50] and it would pull him back. Yeah. And I said, like, you’re a smart lad. Yeah. You don’t want [00:09:55] to. Do you want to be a doctor anymore? Yeah. You don’t want to be a lab rat anymore, which is essentially [00:10:00] what he was at university. So I was like, help me do marketing.

Dev Patel: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: I was like, [00:10:05] it’s not rocket science. You figure it out. Yeah. You do a bit of research and then start helping [00:10:10] me. Yeah. I was like, because it is killing me. And that’s why we were spending those real big books. Yeah. [00:10:15] And so we cancelled out our PR agency. [00:10:20] We cancelled loads of things. Practice took over initially just for us. Yeah, [00:10:25] just for kicks. And we trialled loads of different things. And he had some ideas and I had some ideas. We put [00:10:30] it all together, but it was costing us peanuts now. Yeah. Because he was doing it all and then all of a [00:10:35] sudden kiss the brand that said it turned that corner. Everyone started to get to know the brand. And at [00:10:40] that time I was teaching sex. I was going out across the country teaching cerec for Sirona, [00:10:45] and people would say, oh, we love your brand, who does your marketing? And I was like, well, [00:10:50] actually, you know, this guy does it. And it was hard. I didn’t want to say it was my brother. So I was like, this guy [00:10:55] does his thing. Why don’t you go like, see him, you know? He could maybe help you. Yeah. And slowly [00:11:00] that propagated his business and started pushing his business off. Yeah. And and. Yeah, you know, I [00:11:05] think we kind of helped each other, really. But back in 2008, 2009 [00:11:10] and, you know, that’s now obviously created the fresh and he’s got his own business in his [00:11:15] own right. And he’s, you know, just tremendous things out and about in the [00:11:20] dental world and in other worlds as well. And and I think that kind of pushed him [00:11:25] to be the guy he is today. Yeah. But yeah, he I would say pinnacle point [00:11:30] and again kiss Devils history was when he took over that marketing side and allowed [00:11:35] us to work together to really build the business.

Dev Patel: Did you always have the [00:11:40] vision of having more than one practice back when you had Flixton? Obviously I saw maybe a clip of [00:11:45] a video of you saying that one day a dream was having to attend a practice and then in central Manchester, which obviously [00:11:50] is a reality today. But was it always a vision to have loads of practices or three, 2 or 3 or what [00:11:55] was the plan?

Kailesh Solanki: Yeah, for me it was when I first settled here. Sentinel, you got to remember, the clinic I bought in Flixton [00:12:00] was called Woodson Circle Family Dental Practice. Yeah. And I got a marketing [00:12:05] agency in to kind of wanted to create this brand. And I got a kiss, actually, from [00:12:10] the letters of my name. And I was messing about with, like, how to call what to [00:12:15] call the clinic. And then we branded it and they actually, if you look at the way stencil is written, it’s actually [00:12:20] written in the same font as the Tony and Guy font.

Dev Patel: Oh yeah. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Tony, glad to get my haircut. Yeah. And [00:12:25] so I was looking at all these different brands that were out back then that were strong brands that had [00:12:30] branches, and I wanted to create exactly that, like something that I could. You [00:12:35] can’t take woods in a Woodson’s circle funded dental practice in the second one. Yeah, just not gonna work. Yeah. You know, [00:12:40] but Kiss Dental or whatever that brand was going to be, it would work anywhere. It [00:12:45] wasn’t. It wasn’t linked to an area. And so, yeah, right from the start, [00:12:50] it was my plan to open this, build it, open another one, build [00:12:55] it and grow. Really? Yeah. And obviously for me it was a slow process [00:13:00] because it’s time, energy, money. Personal stuff comes in the mix and you know [00:13:05] and and you do sometimes you have levels of steam or you kind of push forward and go hard, [00:13:10] and then you have levels where you back off and you, you know, you may be sometimes a little bit [00:13:15] like more focus on all the things. But it was always growth, growth, growth. [00:13:20] Yeah. And you know, by the time we got to that third clinic and, and obviously yourselves looked at [00:13:25] us, you know, I think we were a really strong brand with a really solid team. And [00:13:30] I think our only issue really was, was how are we going to grow more now? You [00:13:35] know, when how am I going to grow more? Because I was just spreading myself thin.

[BOTH]: Thinner. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And I think the [00:13:40] benefit with, with coming on board with you guys in dental beauty was, was the [00:13:45] education. And to say, okay, you know, this is how you’re going to need to grow [00:13:50] now.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: You know, you’re not going to be able to carry on using the same model you’ve got because [00:13:55] it’s fine. It works with two, three, maybe even four clinics. You want eight, nine, [00:14:00] ten. You want, you want.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: You know why a legacy. Really? [00:14:05] Then this is how we’re going to do it.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And I think that was the the real important change that I [00:14:10] saw coming on board.

[BOTH]: Really.

Dev Patel: How do you, um. I mean, looking obviously, you know, in terms of [00:14:15] the growth you’ve had over the last 20 years, do you? Is it your expectations of where you would want [00:14:20] to be now or is it behind? Is it ahead of target?

Kailesh Solanki: Like what I’d probably say if [00:14:25] possible, I would have preferred to be like the number ten mark by now. And if I’m going [00:14:30] man. Yeah, yeah I think mean, like for me, like kisses, a great [00:14:35] brand. I think it’s it’s well marketed now. It’s well designed. We did [00:14:40] a redesign about 2020, and I feel like it looks much more modern now and [00:14:45] much nicer, more kind of fresh feel. Um, but for me, yeah, I feel like [00:14:50] we had a little bit of a slow period. I think 2023, 2024, [00:14:55] um, where we didn’t really heavily grow. But I think it was important because we consolidated [00:15:00] and we, we kind of just made sure all these newer clinics would be built. [00:15:05] We’re doing what they needed to do. Yeah. Which I also appreciate that process.

[BOTH]: Yeah, [00:15:10] yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Um, and now we’ve built very this year. So we’re at number eight, [00:15:15] and I would like to be probably by 2026, probably [00:15:20] like to kind of ten or at the end of 10 to 2026 at least. Um, [00:15:25] with some key key areas that we, we already have in mind.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Um, but yeah, [00:15:30] I feel like the growth is going well. I think every clinic we put in it [00:15:35] works. I’m not having to be heavily a part of it which which is the model. [00:15:40] And that needs to be the model. You know, I don’t want to carry on doing dentistry forever. [00:15:45] I love doing the teeth side of it, but I appreciate to oversee it. [00:15:50] I just can’t go into every clinic and do what I do.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And so I feel like, [00:15:55] can I just take my foot off the pedal in that respect and letting the letting the teams [00:16:00] do it and make, you know, make the money, you know, create the environment, [00:16:05] create that, that culture in each clinic. Um, and I feel it’s [00:16:10] working at the moment and guiding them and all the clinicians that we put in as partners, they understand [00:16:15] me, they understand what I expect and understand what Kiss has been for me up to now. [00:16:20] And I feel that they kind of take all that on board and then and then bring it into that clinic. So when I [00:16:25] go into those clinics, I do still feel that warmth, that that happiness, the, you know, the [00:16:30] staff being reasonably happy. You know, never going to get everyone happy. 100% of the time. [00:16:35] Yeah. But you do feel the warmth when you go into even the newer clinics, which I’m super happy about.

Dev Patel: That’s the most important [00:16:40] thing. I mean, obviously I’ve been through the same journey of being a clinician and having to step back and not do clinical. [00:16:45] And I think it’s it’s always a kind of a battle between working on the business and working in the business. [00:16:50] And clinically, you want to work with patients as a fun part of what we all enjoy doing. But eventually it gets to the point where actually [00:16:55] I can’t keep doing the best for the rest of the team if I’m working clinically, doing, you know, X, Y, and Z every day. Right. [00:17:00] So it’s a tough, tough one to battle.

Kailesh Solanki: Yeah, it’s a super struggle. And because I like doing the teeth.

[BOTH]: Bit.

Kailesh Solanki: It’s [00:17:05] harder for me. I mean I mean, I’m not saying that you did it, by the way. No disrespect. [00:17:10]

[BOTH]: Good for you. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: But I just think it’s like, uh. It’s because I’ve [00:17:15] done it for so long.

[BOTH]: Yeah. It’s like it’s it’s a part of that. Yeah. It’s like.

Dev Patel: It’s easier.

Kailesh Solanki: It’s easy. I love sitting [00:17:20] in there and just cracking on and doing a set of veneers or whatever it is and, and, and, and on Kingdom [00:17:25] Castle at that point.

[BOTH]: Yeah, I mean Yeah. Uh.

Kailesh Solanki: Nothing fazes me. Um, [00:17:30] but but. Yeah, you are right. I’ve. I’ve had to step back. Um, even though I’m doing quite a bit of [00:17:35] clinical now, I think my master plan probably in the next coming, coming years is, is to lay off a [00:17:40] bit more clinical each, each year and really focus on cases and maybe speed that [00:17:45] growth up.

[BOTH]: Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Being like you are more hands on with how [00:17:50] that business runs as opposed to running in the business. I think that’s [00:17:55] where you see the difference. That’s where you see like the difference. And I can see it [00:18:00] and I’m running out of time.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: If I’m being brutally honest, you know, I’m, I’m doing [00:18:05] bits on my laptop and sending emails like, in between patients.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: It’s just.

[BOTH]: Not counted. [00:18:10] Yeah. It’s not.

Kailesh Solanki: Productive. So. So yeah, I think that’s probably going to be the next step. [00:18:15]

Dev Patel: No. Great. I think it’s, uh, it’s part of a natural transition anyway. Kind of as you kind of grow, especially [00:18:20] after you get 8 or 9, ten clinics, you physically can’t, you know, do both of them at the same time. And even though it’s easier [00:18:25] and more comfortable for us to see patients, and actually you’ve got your, you know, you’ve got one person to manage, you’ve got your patient and obviously a [00:18:30] nurse, and that’s it really. Yeah. So you start managing the whole teams and you have to start getting involved with all the other stuff. Right. Which is outside of our [00:18:35] comfort zone, isn’t it. Really. Yeah.

[BOTH]: Of course.

Dev Patel: It’s easier to just do what we do.

[BOTH]: Better.

Kailesh Solanki: About you. Insane. [00:18:40] Okay, this is happening. That’s happening. And I’m thinking. I just want.

[BOTH]: To see my patient.

Kailesh Solanki: Yeah, actually, I mean, this is killing [00:18:45] me off, but you’re right, you know, to be a leader. Yeah, you’ve got to [00:18:50] go lead, haven’t you? And ultimately, like, I feel like, you know, there’s been [00:18:55] times as well. And and that’s why, you know, having this conversation with you is really important because there’s [00:19:00] been times in the last coming couple, I probably say in the last year where I haven’t led [00:19:05] as much as I wanted to, just because I’m so in the tools and and you [00:19:10] feel it then because and you, you speak to staff and I speak to the staff still now a lot and [00:19:15] they’ll say, okay, this happened and this happened and this happened. I was like, oh, why didn’t you tell me, you know? And [00:19:20] they’re a bit like, well, you know, you’re busy. And I was like, I know, but I kind of really need to know these things.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Because I [00:19:25] can’t I can’t help if I don’t know.

[BOTH]: Yeah. You know. So.

Dev Patel: No, it’s a tough one, I think. [00:19:30] Um, but when I got a super strength, I actually from outside anyway, is finding talent [00:19:35] kind of guiding them and mentoring them and train them up. Right. And I think that skill set is very unique. [00:19:40] Dentistry. I know you’re very good dentistry, but I’m not saying not like anyone can do it. Um, whether it [00:19:45] be fast or slow, they can do it eventually. And it’s something that’s that we can always get. But one of your [00:19:50] very unique talents is actually building a brand. By building a team around you that all can do basically what you do [00:19:55] to a good level. So I think working that super strength and kind of pushing more than that would be probably better [00:20:00] for the brand, for the company.

[BOTH]: Going forward, right?

Kailesh Solanki: My favourite thing is, is like the BT scheme.

Dev Patel: That’s amazing, [00:20:05] isn’t it?

Kailesh Solanki: You know, I believe like having this BT scheme and we’ve had it for like nearly [00:20:10] seven years now and the amount of clinicians that come through it. And you’re right, you know, we look at some [00:20:15] of our really kind of lead clinicians that are now part owners of other clinics. We’ve [00:20:20] got course got Nabeel. And, you know, these guys started as vets. Yeah. [00:20:25] You know, with us and and the quality of what they produce. Some of these guys produced better quality [00:20:30] work than me, which I’m super proud of and super happy about, because it’s not about [00:20:35] me. Yeah, it’s about like using that guidance to making the best dentist they can be. Yeah. [00:20:40] And also, you know, making the best businessmen, that business people that can be. Because dentistry is a business. [00:20:45]

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And, you know, I feel like learning both or having both hats allows [00:20:50] me to really educate these guys on both aspects of dentistry. And then then it’s nice, [00:20:55] isn’t it? Because then we get another partner and we can put someone in another clip that we trust, and [00:21:00] we know that they’re going to look after our patients, but they’re also going to look out after the PNL, and they’re going to make sure [00:21:05] it’s profitable. And all the things that has to be is, you know.

[BOTH]: Yeah. [00:21:10]

Kailesh Solanki: So, you know, I genuinely believe, like the vet scheme has been super great for me. [00:21:15] It’s been allowed me to keep fresh, keep young, keep understanding dentistry so I can talk [00:21:20] to them about.

[BOTH]: It.

Kailesh Solanki: But then also the business side as.

[BOTH]: Well.

Dev Patel: Just out of interest, I’ve actually asked this [00:21:25] before, but with the partner model. Um, did you have that in mind before we did a partnership together, that you [00:21:30] would actually have partners and put them in a new clinics, or was that something that we kind of like, you know, kind of made [00:21:35] up ourselves together when we did a partnership? I think it’s quite different model, isn’t it? No one does it really. You know, in the UK [00:21:40] generally.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: It is a different model. And, and the reason I initially did it, to [00:21:45] be honest with you, it was that was we were growing clinics. We’d gone to the three clinics and [00:21:50] obviously I’m not there all the time. Um, even when I was a part of Dental Beauty.

[BOTH]: So [00:21:55] yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Having these two that understood exactly how I wanted things to be done [00:22:00] and they then ran these things and, you know, you’re in this situation where now I [00:22:05] might be off for a week, but you’re my lead clinician there, and you’re my lead clinician there. And [00:22:10] I can trust you guys because I know it’s going to be taken care of. And then as these boots grew. [00:22:15] Yeah, 100%, you know I want to join a clinic. We can do a clinic together. [00:22:20] Yeah. You know, when was it, like, going to be a partnership, exact model that you then [00:22:25] set up and we kind of discuss? Probably not. Possibly not. It might have been. I’ll put you in as a lead clinician. [00:22:30] I’ll give you a small percentage of the business, but you help run it with me.

[BOTH]: Yeah, sure.

Kailesh Solanki: It could have been that.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:22:35]

Kailesh Solanki: That was probably more in.

[BOTH]: My head. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And to give them a larger piece of the pie, which is what we do now. [00:22:40] Yeah. And what they have like, obviously a lot more incentive in and a lot more incentive out. [00:22:45] I feel works even better.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: You know, I feel like the model is really fair on everyone. [00:22:50] You know, it’s a fair of my associate who has given me lots of time and energy over the years, [00:22:55] and I want to reward them, and I want the business to reward them.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And obviously, we want them to stay.

[BOTH]: Yeah. [00:23:00]

Kailesh Solanki: And so, you know, it ticks all the boxes I think. So I feel like the model we’ve got now [00:23:05] where we we work it, we give them like that high percentage. They [00:23:10] they nurture that place is is definitely a winner.

[BOTH]: Good.

Dev Patel: I think it’s, uh, [00:23:15] it’s quite clear as well. You know, there’s been over the years, probably 20 years, you know, some high end brands [00:23:20] that have been kind of like, you know, up there with kiss and they’ve kind of come and gone and some of them still there, but none of them really [00:23:25] gone out past the 3 or 4 sites. They’ve all kind of plateaued there because of the fact it’s always been about the original [00:23:30] founder being the only person involved and never having that extra kind of next step of how to get to eight to [00:23:35] 10 or 12 afterwards. So I think you’re breaking that boundary, you know, in terms of the high end brands in the UK, which is great, [00:23:40] but the model obviously works. And I’m glad that all the culture and all the things that you wanted are still there [00:23:45] in all the clinics and the patients now, you’ve now treating double the amount of patients you did five years ago or three.

[BOTH]: Years. [00:23:50]

Dev Patel: Ago, right. So you’re actually helping more people get their smiles back, which is obviously the whole point of kiss, right?

[BOTH]: So yeah, of course it’s great [00:23:55] for us.

Kailesh Solanki: It’s amazing. Like, you know, and for me personally, it’s just nice to go to different [00:24:00] towns and see your brand there and see like it’s growing and also still gain keep [00:24:05] that reputation. Um, and that’s what the scheme is for me. It’s a, [00:24:10] it’s, you know, and the old kind of analogy Like, you look at, like football clubs and I’m [00:24:15] not even into football.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: You looked at like what Alex Ferguson did with all the young kids, [00:24:20] and he grew them from the young. They all they played in these like [00:24:25] different foundations, came up to the top team. And then he’d nurture these kids [00:24:30] to be those players.

[BOTH]: Yeah. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And like, that’s kind of like what? And stay with the club.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: You know [00:24:35] what I mean? And that’s kind of like, that’s my. That was my vision in my head. Like, I want to make sure these guys understand [00:24:40] exactly how this is exactly how people should be treated. Yeah. You know, how patient should [00:24:45] be respected, what type of treatments and what quality is all about. And then hopefully [00:24:50] capture that and go right, do it over there.

[BOTH]: Yeah yeah yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: With [00:24:55] this brand. And then if you can do that and you can just grow that way, you’re [00:25:00] never reducing quality. You’re always just growing something that everyone is sustainable. [00:25:05]

[BOTH]: Yeah. And it’s scalable.

Dev Patel: And obviously you’ve been focusing more on the North West region for now, which has [00:25:10] got Liverpool now, which is the first one I have outside the Manchester area. What’s next? Terms of like, you know, places [00:25:15] that you want to ideally get to.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: For us I feel like we’ve done a lot of Cheshire, [00:25:20] which has been great, but it’s been it’s been a slower build, I feel. Um, you [00:25:25] know, we did Manchester in our Manchester. It was, was booming and it always is very, very busy. Um, [00:25:30] and our Liverpool site has worked really well. So I feel like for us now I would [00:25:35] want to do more cities.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And so, you know, our next step I would like to go [00:25:40] maybe over the pond and go to maybe Sheffield or Leeds would be great for us, I believe. Um, [00:25:45] and then like more into kind of even like the Lancashire side. And so I know we’ve [00:25:50] done bury but we could potentially do somewhere like, you know a bit further [00:25:55] along like Chester or Preston, a bigger city or um, you know, [00:26:00] even even going across to like places like, I don’t know, like even [00:26:05] further up like the, like Lancaster and the Lake District where we get a lot of patients from the Columbia [00:26:10] side. Oh, wow. Um, and so for them to travel all the way here, there’s [00:26:15] gotta be. There’s got to be a want for that kind of treatments and maybe those areas as well. [00:26:20] But yeah, like probably bigger cities for us to start with now. Yeah. Um, where we can really grow. [00:26:25]

Dev Patel: And where do you see yourself? Or what were your aspirations for this in five years time?

Kailesh Solanki: Um, for me, [00:26:30] like probably five years, it would be really nice to be kind of 15 plus clinics. I think.

Dev Patel: It’d [00:26:35] be quite.

Kailesh Solanki: Easy. Yeah. I’m thinking, like, realistic, you know, like like, you know, it costs a lot [00:26:40] to build each clinic and getting the right partners and stuff like that. So obviously we could [00:26:45] grow faster. Of course we could. Yeah. But for me it’s quality. Quality. It’s that [00:26:50] it’s the person that comes in as the partner. You know, I think all of these things make a real big difference. [00:26:55] And some of these growth and the growth back with my existing partners, they might want to have two great [00:27:00] clinics, but for new partners it’s just kind of how that grows. Yeah. And so for me yeah 15 [00:27:05] plus clinics would be amazing. Um, Uh, probably be doing one 1 [00:27:10] to 2 days of dentistry and then the rest of it just making sure these all these clinics [00:27:15] run well. Good. Yeah. Yeah. And yes, I think still being I think the key thing is it’s been my [00:27:20] baby since 2005. Yeah. And so just ensuring that, you know, I’m still a, [00:27:25] a force to be reckoned with in case. And everyone understands like this is how it needs to [00:27:30] be done. And and someone’s there just to ensure like not someone me essentially [00:27:35] there to ensure the quality is still maintained. And yeah the people it’s more and it’s more the people [00:27:40] relationships are still maintained and the staff is still happy. Yeah. Because that’s [00:27:45] as I’ve said, like right at the start where I believe our, our business has grown [00:27:50] and the reason our business has grown because everyone wants it to grow. Yeah. Anyone that worked for me [00:27:55] always wanted kids to grow. Yeah. You know, no one was, like, jealous of the situation or, you [00:28:00] know, like, thinking this isn’t for me or I want to leave here. [00:28:05] You know, everyone was always very, very positive about I want this to do well. Yeah. [00:28:10] And I think when they got a team like that, it’s gonna naturally do well.

Dev Patel: Yeah. For sure. So you’ve obviously got [00:28:15] a very unique scheme, which is basically a trainee dentist training dentist coming up out of university, [00:28:20] then wants to come straight to you rather than doing the traditional PhD scheme under the NHS. Tell me a bit [00:28:25] more about how it works and why do you kind of build it in the first place?

Kailesh Solanki: Okay, so um, I think the main [00:28:30] reason I built it the first place actually was, um, because I was struggling [00:28:35] getting associate’s in that not to my standard. And I think that’s the wrong [00:28:40] way to describe it, because there’s some great associates out there in the world. But you got to appreciate, like, kiss [00:28:45] works in a very specific way. Yeah, yeah. Um, the way we run our free consultations, [00:28:50] the way we kind of, I suppose, design our treatment planning [00:28:55] and and how we treat the patients and that kind of patient journey, you know, and [00:29:00] we’ve, we’ve kind of home that patient journey in over many, many years. It tried to get a streamlined [00:29:05] and also, you know, as I suppose as amazing [00:29:10] for the patient. Really. Yeah, yeah. And then you get an associate in and you say, okay, [00:29:15] like come and work for me. We’re busy. And they’re like, oh, great. And then, then I [00:29:20] might say, well, I don’t want to do a free consultation because I believe my time is really valuable.

Dev Patel: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And I’m trying to [00:29:25] explain saying, well, your time is valuable, but it’s only as valuable as the patient sitting in your chair. Yeah. You know, [00:29:30] and then they’re going. Yeah. But I’ve been to five years of done university. I’ve done all these courses. [00:29:35]

[BOTH]: I’m a very, very.

Kailesh Solanki: Yeah, I’m scratching my head thinking, you don’t get this.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And because [00:29:40] you don’t get it, it’s really. It’s a really hard sell.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: So dentist and then the dentist comes [00:29:45] in and then I would always play a long game. I always play always have. It’s the way I’ve done [00:29:50] it. And so patient comes in. They might have a problem I might fix that problem. But they might have another 3 to 4 problems. [00:29:55] That problem might fix that. They’ll say, do you know what. No charge. Yeah. Yeah. You just chill. [00:30:00] Come back. You’ve got these other three things to do, but the three things might be, I don’t know, whatever, [00:30:05] but I’ve now got a patient for life because that guy’s trusted me, because I’ve done something [00:30:10] just nice.

[BOTH]: My.

Kailesh Solanki: Person, they’ve come back and I’ve now done [00:30:15] some treatment for them, and now I’ve got a patient again, just kind of building that culture [00:30:20] into a dentist that doesn’t understand and has never done that. No chance.

Dev Patel: Yeah. Bad habits. [00:30:25]

[BOTH]: Right. Bad habits.

Kailesh Solanki: And it’s not even bad habits just the way they are.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: You know, and that’s the way I am. [00:30:30] And but it’s worked and it’s worked in in droves. So essentially that’s [00:30:35] why are we so busy. And so then you get a VPN and it’s completely different because [00:30:40] they have no understanding of what it should be like or what it shouldn’t be. Yeah, sure. So anything a free consultation is [00:30:45] normal.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: They think, you know, looking after that patient and maybe saying that reinvent charge. [00:30:50] I’m not going to charge you today. But you know what? You need a new crowd. So come in. I’m going to do a new crowd for you. And that’s going to be, I [00:30:55] don’t know, seven, eight, £900.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And the patient holds their goals for the ground because [00:31:00] he’s. Oh, he’s such a nice guy. Didn’t even charge me.

[BOTH]: To.

Kailesh Solanki: Put it in today. You know, when those little [00:31:05] things matter. Matter?

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: 100% matter. The patient who signs up [00:31:10] for the 20 grand of treatment plan won’t be paying you £20,000. They’ll begrudge [00:31:15] you if you then put in nominal charging, maybe three quarters of the way through for £100 [00:31:20] or something.

[BOTH]: Yeah, they’re.

Kailesh Solanki: £100 that.

[BOTH]: Way. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: You know, and so it’s it’s understanding [00:31:25] patience. It’s understanding kind of like how to look after people. And the scheme [00:31:30] I think does three things. It really, really helps the dentist [00:31:35] understand how to speak, how to communicate with patients [00:31:40] on a really better level. Private dentistry is very different to NHS dentistry. [00:31:45] And everyone knows that. You know, you speak to all dentists and I’m a private dentist. I’m an NHS. [00:31:50]

[BOTH]: Dentist. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Well yeah get that. But actually can you just speak to someone.

Dev Patel: The human beings.

Kailesh Solanki: And [00:31:55] they’re human beings. They’re not NHS on the for private rent on the floor. And so [00:32:00] essentially, though, how do you understand the communication of the different [00:32:05] people? Yeah. How can you communicate with everyone from the little old day that comes is 95 [00:32:10] years old? That probably doesn’t want anything doing. You know, she’s only just got a [00:32:15] few more years left and she’s still got a few teeth in the battle. She’s gotta keep on to the 20 year old kid who wants, [00:32:20] like, a full wall to wall seven ears. And how do you have different conversations with these people? So [00:32:25] communication is the key. Really it’s 100% the BT Group. Yeah. I think the other thing [00:32:30] is treatment planning. You know, you may and I may see the [00:32:35] same patient.

Dev Patel: But different.

Kailesh Solanki: Plans, completely different team plans. And why are they different. Yeah yeah yeah. [00:32:40] Which is better I’m not saying any better. Yeah, but what I’m saying is there is a reason why certain things are done [00:32:45] in certain ways. Because of what the patient’s expectations are. Yeah, yeah. And if you get that treatment [00:32:50] quite wrong, you fail the patient. Yeah. And so for me, it’s like understanding [00:32:55] about Out design and smiles, understanding about looking after the patient’s whole [00:33:00] mouth as a full yeah, singular thing as opposed to individual teeth. Dentistry [00:33:05] and like teaching the how to treat upon those cases, you [00:33:10] know. And that’s why my books are so successful because they’ve understood that they’ve understood [00:33:15] the treatment plan inside of it. And so, like, you’re going to factor in, you know, that they can do [00:33:20] the treatment planning, they can communicate with the patients. And then the last thing is [00:33:25] that business side, you know, everyone forgets about, everyone always thinks, well, we shouldn’t talk about money and we [00:33:30] shouldn’t do this. And we dentists, we clinicians, but Christ.

Dev Patel: It’s the selling product. Myself. It’s [00:33:35] like.

Kailesh Solanki: You know, patients, you know, no one’s gonna walk in. I’m gonna say when you need 20 plus [00:33:40] in veneers and they’re gonna walk out, I’m gonna do them and they’re gonna go and pay the bill. [00:33:45] Yeah. This doesn’t happen.

Dev Patel: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Does it happen? So unless you have the conversation and go, it’s [00:33:50] gonna cost you this. This is how you can pay. And this is like the situation. This is where we’re at. [00:33:55] It is gonna fall down.

Dev Patel: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And ultimately, they need to understand [00:34:00] those basics of dentistry. Yeah. And then also the basics of why do I charge x [00:34:05] amount for something? Yeah. Do you understand? Do you understand why that person there cost me what this chair [00:34:10] costs me? Do you understand what this is like? I love bills and all the fundamentals. [00:34:15] Which creates the price of the crowd. Yeah. Or creates the price of adventure or whatever [00:34:20] it is?

Dev Patel: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Because sometimes they see this money coming in and they [00:34:25] just think it’s great.

Dev Patel: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: But actually, no longer than that. Now it isn’t amazing. [00:34:30] Yeah. At times. And so they got to appreciate that. And they’ve got to understand that I can’t just, [00:34:35] you know, have that issue where I don’t want to say I don’t want to say it, I don’t want to say it. And I’ll just say a price which is even lower. [00:34:40] Yeah. Because you do that and then you’re like, scratching your head thinking, we’ve made no money. Now you’re killing [00:34:45] me off.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: You know what I mean? Yeah. And so understanding those basic fundamentals, I [00:34:50] think, is just key. Yeah. And so if you learn all those three aspects, [00:34:55] like you said, the dentist is easy.

Dev Patel: Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Any monkey can [00:35:00] do. The dentist. Yeah. Really? Yeah, yeah. Giving them time. And like you said, the muscle might do it fast. Some [00:35:05] might do it slow, some will be a little bit better than others. Yeah. And quality is one of those things either [00:35:10] beholder and all that kind of stuff. But ultimately it can be done. Yeah, it’s the other four [00:35:15] three fundamentals that no one teaches.

Dev Patel: And how long is the program lasting? So like if I was going [00:35:20] to come to a clinic, I’ve just finished university or to finish my PhD, how’s it work? So is it like a one year, two year for a year?

Kailesh Solanki: So [00:35:25] I generally do a two year program where year one, there’ll be a lot of shadowing.

[BOTH]: Yeah. [00:35:30]

Kailesh Solanki: And so not just myself but primarily most vets will shadow me a lot. [00:35:35] Um, and then we’ll get them to our other kind of specialist fields. Like if they want to show [00:35:40] an orthodontist, go to an orthodontist, they can shadow doughnut shadow with their dentist. We’ve got a really high [00:35:45] end in the dentist. They can shadow and they can sort of hone their skills on where they want to be. Yeah. So whether [00:35:50] it be general dentistry, cosmetic dentistry, endodontics, prosthodontics. It doesn’t really [00:35:55] matter. Yeah. We’ve got the skill sets in the group that we can shadow. Yeah, but it’s a lot of shadowing year [00:36:00] one with some dentistry and that dentistry will be very simple, but basic dentistry. [00:36:05] Moving on to more cosmetic dentistry as the year progresses. Moving on to them, [00:36:10] doing their own cases, you know, guided.

[BOTH]: Yeah. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And then we get them into year two. [00:36:15] And year two is really then learning how to be an associate. [00:36:20]

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Yeah. You know like now guys like, you know, you now gotta have a list of patients. [00:36:25] You’re going to have new patients and want to see how things progress now. Want to [00:36:30] see how busy your book can get. Yeah I want to see how you’re guiding yourself. [00:36:35] Are you pushing yourself on social media? You becoming a clinician that’s going to have their [00:36:40] own view and their own vision and their own kind of patient base. [00:36:45] And so now by year two, it’s still a salaried position. Year one in [00:36:50] year two. But year two. Salary goes up a little bit. And it’s not really about the [00:36:55] salary and the money year on year two.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Because what I’m trying to do is teach you how to do [00:37:00] that. Well, so you get to the end of year two and now you’re fully fledged associate [00:37:05] and the money will speak for itself.

[BOTH]: Yep.

Kailesh Solanki: And I’ve [00:37:10] got no concern about that. Yeah. All my teams do very very well.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: After their [00:37:15] trip is over. And if you ever spoke to any of them, they would. They would say. And you’ve seen the numbers regardless. [00:37:20] Yeah. And so that I’m not too worried about. But as long as the dentist isn’t [00:37:25] worried about it. Yeah it works.

Dev Patel: I think it’s quite a difficult one for most young inventors [00:37:30] these days. Right. Because they happen to essentially give up potentially some not a huge amount of earnings, [00:37:35] but, you know, salary for two years and not getting that, you know, self-employed income if they were doing [00:37:40] their normal associate work. It’s almost like doing a for three years. They do a potentially NHS one and then [00:37:45] doing two more years of you. View, but the benefits of investing themselves is ten times greater. [00:37:50] And I tell you, I’m going to do the same thing. If you’ve got one thing to do the first 3 or 4 years, it’s investing courses in yourself, and [00:37:55] they’ll pay ten times more than anything else you can do in dentistry, right? Rather than trying to work out like, you know, different [00:38:00] percentage of your before you split or your, your day rate or whatever it may be. Um, but some of them just don’t get it [00:38:05] in mind. And I think, right, like, you’ve got to get the right mindset of someone who’s actually willing to invest, willing to learn, and then they’ll just be [00:38:10] flying off to 2 or 3 years I’ve had.

Kailesh Solanki: Honestly, I interview a lot.

Dev Patel: I know, yeah, I.

[BOTH]: Know.

Dev Patel: We mentioned [00:38:15] last night.

Kailesh Solanki: And you know, ones that come in and tell me what they should, but I [00:38:20] should be paying them. And that’s actually my head saying, this is not this is not a negotiation.

[BOTH]: Yeah. [00:38:25]

Kailesh Solanki: You are going to see value in what we’re going to provide as a group.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And the value [00:38:30] is, is is as again is is very easy to see when you see the likes of course [00:38:35] Nabeel, um, Nelly, Molly.

[BOTH]: Calum.

Kailesh Solanki: Callum, [00:38:40] all of these guys who are earning probably I would [00:38:45] say without talking numbers, easily the top 1% of what [00:38:50] in the country of plenty certain.

Dev Patel: Of any.

[BOTH]: Age?

Kailesh Solanki: At any age. Yeah. You know, regardless of [00:38:55] whether 1 or 2 years out. Yeah. You know, these guys are killing it financially, [00:39:00] but they’re killing it financially because I’ve given them every single tool to ensure the [00:39:05] quality is met.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: They can communicate with the patients and they understand the business.

[BOTH]: Yeah. [00:39:10]

Kailesh Solanki: And for those three fundamentals essentially is what we teach. And so [00:39:15] when someone comes to me and says, well, it’s a low amount of money and I don’t know if I can do it, [00:39:20] then don’t do it.

[BOTH]: Yeah yeah yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Fully. Don’t do it. Yeah. Because you’ve got to be fully invested in this. [00:39:25] And for me, it’s. You shouldn’t even think about that salary that [00:39:30] I’m paying you. Yeah. Against what you could earn. Because what you could earn will always be capped. [00:39:35]

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Because you won’t have the skill set to go past that cap.

[BOTH]: Yeah. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: That’s true. Yeah. So what I’m [00:39:40] teaching you is to kind of exceed that cap so enormously, like you won’t [00:39:45] even realise. Yeah, but you don’t know what you don’t know.

Dev Patel: I think, though sometimes I don’t [00:39:50] know if you do mention this to, you know, something like dentist, but that same course of what you’re teaching [00:39:55] them, whether it be, you know, a two day ethical selling course or a five day course of implant mentor or whatever may [00:40:00] be all your stuff in teaching them is like doing 5 or 6 one year courses in two years, and that [00:40:05] would have cost them hundreds of thousands of pounds, so that actually the salary they’re getting, plus the savings [00:40:10] they’re making for the actually net net is a huge savings, isn’t it?

[BOTH]: Yes.

Dev Patel: And they’re going to grow ten more [00:40:15] in two years time. Right.

Kailesh Solanki: So you said to me before you said.

[BOTH]: I.

Dev Patel: Wish I had done it that way, if I, if I was, you [00:40:20] know, at that age. But obviously I’m a bit off that now.

Kailesh Solanki: But you said to me at the start like how, how did you start a curse at [00:40:25] such a young age? Yeah, because I did loads of courses. So I did old pole tips and three courses [00:40:30] in over two years as well. I was a bit.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: So, so each one it [00:40:35] was like, you know like 15 grand here, 15 grand there, 15 grand there. So whatever I was doing, [00:40:40] I was just throwing back in courses. I had no money.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: So essentially, like, be that guy. [00:40:45]

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And also doing costs is great. It doesn’t teach you any experience. Then you have to [00:40:50] do all those treatments. You need the patience to do them.

[BOTH]: Yeah yeah yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And then do enough of [00:40:55] them to get good at it.

[BOTH]: Yes.

Kailesh Solanki: So it’s a vicious circle. So, like, which bitch do you want? [00:41:00] Do you want me to then be able to look after you to ensure that all this is going to go well [00:41:05] for you? If you have a problem with any of these treatments you want to do. And there I’d [00:41:10] be. Comfort by the.

[BOTH]: Kit.

Kailesh Solanki: Yeah, yeah, I’m starting you out of things.

Dev Patel: And who else do you get off on?

[BOTH]: And are you getting out upfront? [00:41:15] Yeah. So you get all.

Kailesh Solanki: This wrapped up in one thing and still get.

[BOTH]: Paid? Yeah.

Dev Patel: You [00:41:20] have no pain.

Kailesh Solanki: No pain? No. Well, it’s hard because nowadays [00:41:25] dentistry is deemed as this profession. They go in, they earn big bucks, they see people [00:41:30] like me maybe driving around, and they’re somewhere in that and they’re saying, well, I want to be that guy.

[BOTH]: Yeah, [00:41:35] yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: By the way, this guy has taken 22 years to.

[BOTH]: Get to this. Yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Don’t be fooled [00:41:40] by the situation and be fooled by the imagery in this vision, because it’s not [00:41:45] always been like that. Yeah, and there have been tough times and I’ve had to do what [00:41:50] these guys did.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: They don’t see.

[BOTH]: It.

Dev Patel: Um, so tell me, in the last 20 years, [00:41:55] what’s been the biggest kind of hurdle that you have to overcome?

[BOTH]: Okay.

Kailesh Solanki: Um, I suppose [00:42:00] we spoke initially, and I told you, like, when we was growing the business quickly, and [00:42:05] that was quite a hurdle. You know, it was a financial hurdle in which we had to get through [00:42:10] and get past. But even past that hurdle, I think, you know, in 2000 and [00:42:15] sure, it was like 2012. Okay. Um, Christmas came [00:42:20] shut down all the clinics. We had the three clinics by that point. And, and [00:42:25] on Boxing Day, on the day after Boxing Day, I got a phone call [00:42:30] from the alarm company, and they say, and your labs going off in your Flixton clinic. So [00:42:35] it must be, you know, something of nothing. It was. It was quite well secured, the clinic. So [00:42:40] I don’t think it was going to be anything major. So I needed to get in my car, drive down there. I opened the door and steam [00:42:45] hits me. Oh! Whoa. What’s going on? What’s that? And [00:42:50] all the windows. The whole practice was all steamed up. Less weird. So I opened [00:42:55] the door as I walk in. The only way I can describe [00:43:00] it, it’s like a like a tsunami hit the business. And the whole bottom [00:43:05] floor, top floor. All waters coming through all the ceilings. [00:43:10] It was hot water, so it must have been a hot water that had burst, [00:43:15] but the hot water just kept generating. So everything was like [00:43:20] vaporising the computers, the CT scanners, the dental [00:43:25] chairs. It was in every single room of the ground floor. So then we were upstairs to the top [00:43:30] floor. It was a leak that had occurred in the lab that we had currently at the clinic. [00:43:35] This this pipe had burst and it was going over it. So the whole [00:43:40] the top floor wasn’t as bad. It was pretty damaged, but the bottom floor was ruined. And [00:43:45] that’s ruined.

[BOTH]: Ruined.

Kailesh Solanki: Basically you couldn’t you physically, I [00:43:50] would say the business is gone.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: That was our only clinic that I think we would have been done. Oh, [00:43:55] because you couldn’t work in there?

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: It was.

[BOTH]: Gone. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: So obviously [00:44:00] what we’re going to do calls a meeting, um, and get all [00:44:05] my stuff to Manchester. And I said, guys, what a horrendous flood in [00:44:10] Flixton.

[BOTH]: Was this a.

Dev Patel: Boxing Day or is this after Christmas.

Kailesh Solanki: Just after. So this is Boxing Day after [00:44:15] boxing, I found out. Get everyone back on the first, first day of Jan.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And and [00:44:20] I did call this big meeting and at that time, we still have a decent level of staff to three clinics.

[BOTH]: And. [00:44:25]

Kailesh Solanki: So on and so forth, and some really kind of fundamental key staff members. So [00:44:30] everyone comes in, we have this meeting and I say, I don’t know how we’re going to do this, but logistically, [00:44:35] we need to move all our operations to our two existing clinics.

Dev Patel: Altrincham [00:44:40] and City Centre.

Kailesh Solanki: Altrincham City Centre and everyone to start working from there and [00:44:45] need all the books moving, all the patients, changing, making, making the [00:44:50] patients understand what’s going on. I think the clinic will be closed for 3 to 4 months.

[BOTH]: Wow.

Kailesh Solanki: And [00:44:55] so there at that point, I suppose that’s when your team [00:45:00] massively matters. You know, the people that work for you, the people that, like, care about the business. And [00:45:05] everyone really cared and everyone really pulled together and made that work. [00:45:10] And, you know, it was a really tough time for the business. That and probably for a good 3 or [00:45:15] 4 months, everyone was running around. Everyone was like working in in places they didn’t want to work in. Some [00:45:20] people were like changing childcare and all sorts of things were going on, and we were [00:45:25] trying to essentially just make sure this business came in on functioning.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Um, and [00:45:30] it did, and it worked really well. And then we kind of refer to flick, obviously flicks that had [00:45:35] to be completely redone.

[BOTH]: Um, did.

Dev Patel: You? You didn’t rebrand it at that time. Might you just get the same [00:45:40] brand?

Kailesh Solanki: You kept the same brand. You just basically, just as I said, just rebuild the.

[BOTH]: Inside of the business. [00:45:45] Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Um, and yeah, it was it was quite. It [00:45:50] was really sad when it happened. And it was a really happy time when we when everything came [00:45:55] back, went back to normal. Yeah. And you realise the people that are around you were around you and would always [00:46:00] help you kind of situation. Yeah. So it was like it was happy for that. Um, but I would say if [00:46:05] that was probably the biggest disaster.

[BOTH]: Oh, wow.

Kailesh Solanki: I never faced.

[BOTH]: It.

Dev Patel: I mean, just for perspective, [00:46:10] because maybe not everyone knows this, but you went from essentially only 13 chairs to eight, so literally, [00:46:15] like, almost half capacity within the space of, you know.

[BOTH]: Yeah. We had.

Kailesh Solanki: Four chairs.

[BOTH]: In it.

Dev Patel: I’ll get it.

[BOTH]: For.

Kailesh Solanki: Only [00:46:20] a chair for chairs in Manchester and two chairs.

[BOTH]: Here.

Dev Patel: Oh seven head.

[BOTH]: Six [00:46:25] six. Okay.

Kailesh Solanki: Five chairs.

Dev Patel: So you went home? Was half capacity over one week.

Kailesh Solanki: They were [00:46:30] doing.

[BOTH]: That extra late.

Dev Patel: Nights and weekends.

[BOTH]: And all that.

Kailesh Solanki: And and, you know, everyone [00:46:35] really pulled together.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Yeah. What about.

Dev Patel: What about Covid then? Because obviously that’s a kind of similar [00:46:40] situation where like, you know, just shut down one day and next thing you know, the two months to come back together again and you have to rebrand and do that time. [00:46:45]

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Dev Patel: What was the thought behind that? Because that was obviously a big, big kind of change.

[BOTH]: When.

Kailesh Solanki: Covid happened. You kind [00:46:50] of you kind of can take stock kind of like anything like you said, you know, you’re working in the [00:46:55] business all the time. You can’t really.

[BOTH]: See.

Kailesh Solanki: The vision. You can’t see your focus. You can’t see outside in. [00:47:00] And so obviously during that time I did and I saw outside in and I was a little bit like, you [00:47:05] know, we look a bit dated and we’re trying to be this brand. [00:47:10] You know, we, we want to we want to grow.

[BOTH]: Mhm.

Kailesh Solanki: And and [00:47:15] it really kind of like sunk home that you know we’ve got time now. [00:47:20] You know we’re not making any money. That’s fine. And but to that [00:47:25] point by 2020 we were pretty cash rich business so he could stomach the loss. Yeah. You [00:47:30] know, the government helped a lot with the furlough. Yeah. We had a few staff members [00:47:35] working. Obviously I wasn’t we weren’t the dentist, weren’t earning any money. But past that, I could structure [00:47:40] the business so it would still tick along.

[BOTH]: That’s good.

Kailesh Solanki: And so then it was just really kind [00:47:45] of understanding what was our next step here. And, you know, as then things started kind [00:47:50] of moving back in and things reopen, you can very much see people [00:47:55] that people’s mindset had changed. They were thinking, oh, I can’t go abroad. [00:48:00] I’m more based here. I’m now in the UK. What things do [00:48:05] I want to get done? What do I want to do? And I care about myself more. I want to get my teeth done. I want to, [00:48:10] you know. People were exercising more. They were outside more, weren’t they? They were kind of thinking. So [00:48:15] for me, it was just like, I understand why we’ve got this boom. [00:48:20] But if we got this boom, let’s now.

[BOTH]: Take a bite out of it.

Kailesh Solanki: Yeah, yeah, take advantage of [00:48:25] it.

[BOTH]: Showcases again. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Rebuild what we had, you know, to a better [00:48:30] standard. And at that point, just to be super transparent and open. [00:48:35] I was looking at selling the business pre-COVID and the sale fell through because [00:48:40] of Covid. And it wasn’t to yourselves. And so that app actually [00:48:45] didn’t want to sell after that. I was like, right, I’m done. That sale went through. It was it [00:48:50] was a touch of fate. And so for me now I’m going to grow this business myself.

[BOTH]: Yeah, [00:48:55] yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: You know, but I’m going to rebrand it and I’m going to make it amazing again. And, you know, we spoke about [00:49:00] at times in business, you’ve got those real bursts of energy where you’re like, I’m gonna do this and [00:49:05] kill it. I’m gonna do everything I want to do. And then there’s times where you kind of just feel a little bit like [00:49:10] down hearted.

[BOTH]: Like.

Kailesh Solanki: Ground down by business. And I think Covid, like, [00:49:15] gave me that spur to go, you know, ground down those miles probably sell in, you know. And then [00:49:20] I dislike burst of energy and a little bit of a rethink. And I was like, I’m going to grow this and [00:49:25] I’m going to do it well and I’m going to rebrand. And that’s why we did the rebrand. And then you [00:49:30] came along and it like changed my mindset again, but in a better way because I [00:49:35] was I was motivated then at.

[BOTH]: Least.

Kailesh Solanki: I think I was selling for all the wrong reasons. The previous. [00:49:40]

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And then you came along and I was then wanting to go into something bigger and [00:49:45] better with the right people.

[BOTH]: Yeah. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: It’s just a different mindset.

[BOTH]: Again, no, for sure.

Dev Patel: I think it gets [00:49:50] I mean, I’m sure you’ve had ups and downs over the years, but it gets a bit lonely and it eventually like, you know, you’ve got [00:49:55] three takes. You know, everyone since Chester, they don’t really see what you go through and all the stresses and pains. You know, [00:50:00] sometimes they’ve got much cash, they’ve got good cash. And like, they don’t see that all they see, they get paid and they do their job right. But [00:50:05] it’s it can be lonely. And I think that’s one of the reasons why as a model for partnership, you know, everyone’s [00:50:10] got different experiences. Some have, you know, been there for a long time and some have come in recently for the first practice. But, you [00:50:15] know, you’ve all been through the kind of same journey of running a practice now. And it’s it’s better to be together rather than on your own [00:50:20] and trying to figure out where you are. Right. Right. So, uh. That’s good. Technology has always been one of your passions. [00:50:25] Still is, even though you’re getting a bit older, you know, you’re still a technology expert, I would say. So, you [00:50:30] know, you’re one of the first users and, um, you know, some all the texts over the years. Tell me a bit [00:50:35] about like, you know, one, why you got passionate for dentistry in terms of the technology side of things. And what do you think [00:50:40] is the future for the next 5 or 6 years or ten years for dentistry?

Kailesh Solanki: For me, like tech’s always been something [00:50:45] that I am passionate about because, you know, I think that’s mentioned only around a computer business. [00:50:50] When I was young, I was super into computer, super into just like any, any bit of [00:50:55] tech. And the first person you see some new bit of tech on like Instagram or on some [00:51:00] on TikTok, I’d just.

[BOTH]: Buy it. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Oh it’s crap. You just come to the house and they’re looking, [00:51:05] I think I look.

[BOTH]: Shiny or.

Kailesh Solanki: I just, I’m just so interested.

[BOTH]: Yeah. [00:51:10]

Kailesh Solanki: And so when it came about, so interested. Like what? I make my own teeth in [00:51:15] a day, like for my patient. Amazing.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And then there’s some realities of it because, you know, [00:51:20] sometimes it’s quality issues and there’s this and none of things improve. And you know, so [00:51:25] for me, like tech now is essentially like what makes this run better.

[BOTH]: Yeah, more [00:51:30] efficient, more.

Kailesh Solanki: Efficient, allows me to reduce quarantines for patients but [00:51:35] allows me to keep quality.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And so yeah, 3D printers [00:51:40] now and scanners and all those kind of basic mod cons that I think a [00:51:45] dental practice should have and to create some restorations in-house to be [00:51:50] able to scan in-house without taking impressions and all these different things. Amazing. [00:51:55] Yeah. You know, dentistry is definitely progressed now with that. And I think people [00:52:00] aren’t doing that. They’re missing a trick.

[BOTH]: Really? Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: You know, but then equally, you [00:52:05] know, I think like moving forward like where’s dentistry going to take us. You know, we hear now of like [00:52:10] robot robotic dentistry, you know, which is becoming you know quite I’m [00:52:15] not saying popular but it’s definitely He created some steam and some some lead clinicians [00:52:20] that we’ve spoken about and now heavily investing in that sort of tech and and [00:52:25] seeing where that’s going to take them.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And I’m not saying these robots are going to replace us.

Dev Patel: No, it’ll [00:52:30] be, I think, more scalable to get the quality higher, because no matter how good we are on your best day or worst [00:52:35] day, there’s probably about millimetres, two minutes of difference, right. And depending on where the implant goes. Whereas if you get a robot doing exactly [00:52:40] the same every single time, we still control it. But it’s the same as the way you look at it. If you look at DaVinci [00:52:45] in terms of, you know, medical kind of surgery, you can be in Australia controlling a machine that’s doing [00:52:50] a surgery in Italy, right? And that’s just, you know, the kind of level of scalability that you can have these days rather [00:52:55] than I always think it’s dentist. Our most important role is to communication and the trust. Right. [00:53:00] If we can do those two things with patients, the rest of it can be done by something else or someone else.

Kailesh Solanki: And I think there’s always [00:53:05] going to be you’re always going to have that niche market of the patient wanting to see a specific [00:53:10] person because they’re an artist.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And, you know, the robot will never take away the artist, right? [00:53:15]

[BOTH]: For sure.

Kailesh Solanki: It’ll I never take away kind of what we what we have in our hearts and what [00:53:20] we what we produce. But ultimately, like you said, certain things, certain [00:53:25] aspects of dentistry, if it is a robotic, robotic [00:53:30] size or whatever you want to call it, if it’s done in that fashion. I just think, like I said, the quality [00:53:35] will always be maintained. And so I don’t think it’s a catch all.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah, yeah for sure.

Kailesh Solanki: I [00:53:40] definitely think dentists will go that way.

[BOTH]: Cool.

Dev Patel: Um, and I think the last question is just [00:53:45] in terms of young dentists. So if you were 20 years ago, what would you be telling [00:53:50] yourself now in terms of recommendations, advice to be doing in this day and age?

Kailesh Solanki: I knew what I knew now. [00:53:55]

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: I think it’s just more, you know, it’s easy, isn’t it, when you get to this point [00:54:00] and you’ve had some ups and downs, you’ve had some issues and some problems and you treat your patients, you probably shouldn’t [00:54:05] OB, you treat patients, you should and all that kind of.

[BOTH]: Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And you know we all make mistakes. [00:54:10] Yeah. And so how do you mitigate that. Like how do you reduce that risk, [00:54:15] I suppose, and the advice I would give to young dentists is I’m [00:54:20] not saying it’s primarily me, but find someone like me.

[BOTH]: Yeah. You know. Mentor.

Kailesh Solanki: Have a mentor. [00:54:25] Have someone that you can just bounce ideas off. Showcase treatment plans. [00:54:30] Go through different things. You’ve got an issue. Can you chat to someone you know? Do you [00:54:35] understand what you’re communicating? Yeah. You know, my biggest, I suppose, my [00:54:40] biggest bugbear with my clinician sometimes, [00:54:45] like, talk to me.

[BOTH]: Like.

Kailesh Solanki: If you were to discuss this case with me, I would have just said, actually, maybe [00:54:50] consider doing it like.

[BOTH]: This. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: You know, because you’ve gone around about it in, like, [00:54:55] a completely, completely wrong way. And, and, you know, and that’s fine for me to say [00:55:00] in a closed room because I’m saying that in front of the patient. I’m not saying that in front of in [00:55:05] to the to the dentist to, to upset them.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Just trying to get them to [00:55:10] understand like that. There’s a right way in the wrong way to do things, and I’ve done a lot the wrong way.

[BOTH]: Yeah, [00:55:15] yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Do you know what I mean? And I still sometimes don’t get everything right, but I get the [00:55:20] majority, right? Because I made the mistakes previously. So I’m here to. So you don’t have to.

[BOTH]: Yeah. [00:55:25]

Kailesh Solanki: And so the mentorship about scheme, whatever you want to call it is [00:55:30] the key I think to a clinician growing.

[BOTH]: Yeah for sure.

Kailesh Solanki: Like [00:55:35] you said you can go on every course in the world. I did you did, um, learn [00:55:40] from some of the best people. Yeah. And that’s great. And you can take a lot of that home, but [00:55:45] a lot of it is just theory.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And when you’re in the chair and the patients struggle [00:55:50] in and you’re doing what you’re doing, how far does that theory take you?

[BOTH]: Yeah. [00:55:55] Yeah. For sure.

Kailesh Solanki: You know. And the practical aspects of what we do on a day to day basis, I believe are super [00:56:00] important. And how do you negotiate that and how do you improve that? [00:56:05] And so for me my advice find a mental [00:56:10] mentor. Find someone that you that will help you. That will be your comfort blanket that will allow [00:56:15] you to do treatments you want to do in a really controlled environment.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Dev Patel: Now, [00:56:20] I think that’s great advice. And I think it’s a it’s more and more important now where they’re learning less and less at university [00:56:25] level because they’re coming out with one crown experience or maybe one filling. And they say, I’m dentist now, right? And [00:56:30] then you’ve got literally no experience after because you’re just doing kind of, you know, NHS work.

[BOTH]: And all. [00:56:35]

Dev Patel: The stuff, which is not going to help you. So it’s so important right now to get.

[BOTH]: It’s.

Kailesh Solanki: So important. And the other thing that we [00:56:40] forget to mention is everyone’s scared in their own shadow nowadays. Yeah, because of the litigation [00:56:45] issues. And, you know, being a heavily litigated profession, no one wants to do anything. [00:56:50]

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: You know, so they see a patient and they see a tooth and they like scratching their head. And they’re giving [00:56:55] that patient a thousand options for that one, too, because they don’t want to miss an option out because they’ll get litigated. [00:57:00] And then they don’t want to do the treatment because they’ll probably get litigated. And then if it goes wrong, [00:57:05] they’ll get litigated. And even if it goes right in 20 years later, they’ll get this again. So they’re [00:57:10] so scared.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And you’ve got to. You’ve got to kind of educate the dentist. Like, listen. [00:57:15] We’re here to treat patients.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: The rest is unfortunately, a [00:57:20] good and a bad of what we do.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: But you’re there to treat patients who treat the patient, right? And [00:57:25] 95% of the time, they’ll thank you for it. They’ll trust you and you won’t. [00:57:30] And you’ll keep another patient. So just be a good person. Be ethical. Just treat [00:57:35] people.

Dev Patel: This is not, um, you know, intended in any way. Just words on the spot. But I always say [00:57:40] to everybody in our team, not even just in dentistry, but we’ve been, you know, our shared service centre. Just keep it [00:57:45] stupid and simple, which is kiss. Yeah, that’s literally what it’s about. You just keep it really simple. Don’t [00:57:50] overthink it. Don’t tell the patient a hundred different options for, like, one filling. Like, just keep it simple. Right. And then they’re [00:57:55] human beings that understand it, and that’d be.

[BOTH]: Good for them. What I think you should do.

Dev Patel: Yeah. But I think that’s one of your, [00:58:00] um, really one of your super strengths in terms of making a really complicated treatment plan of, like, implants [00:58:05] and veneers and this and that reason for the patients understand and they get.

[BOTH]: It right.

Kailesh Solanki: And they go, oh yeah that sounds [00:58:10] that I get that. And I said, do you understand what I’m.

[BOTH]: Going to do. Yeah, yeah I do.

Kailesh Solanki: Okay, cool.

[BOTH]: That’s great.

Dev Patel: That’s what [00:58:15] I.

[BOTH]: Tell you anyway. Let’s do.

Dev Patel: It. Cool man. Thank you for your time. Appreciate it man. And yeah thanks.

[VOICE]: This [00:58:20] is Dental Leaders the podcast where [00:58:25] you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:58:30] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:58:35]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. If you got this far, you must have listened [00:58:40] to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through [00:58:45] and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some [00:58:50] value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing, and [00:58:55] if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so [00:59:00] so so much for listening. Thanks.

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