Month: October 2025

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[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:00:40] in dentistry. Your hosts [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me [00:00:50] great pleasure to welcome Alex Puccio onto the podcast. I met [00:00:55] Alex first at Mini Smile Makeover.

Alex Buciu: But yeah, probably the [00:01:00] first time. The first one. Yeah. But you’re the first man because I. You came twice. You came to [00:01:05] New York. They named it twice. New York, New York. I had to do it.

Payman Langroudi: Lots of people come twice. [00:01:10] You know, people can come as many times as they like. And the record is seven times. Seven [00:01:15] times. And actually, interestingly, we talk about that because now Depeche after three years he’s going to do [00:01:20] Mini Smile makeover part two multiple teeth. So that that guy’s a perfectionist. [00:01:25] Yeah. So good to have you, buddy. Alex.

Alex Buciu: Thank you for having me.

Payman Langroudi: My pleasure. [00:01:30] Alex is a dentist who qualified in Romania and, uh, then decided to [00:01:35] make the move firstly to Northern Ireland and then to Peterborough lately. [00:01:40] And working as an associate.

Alex Buciu: Yes. That’s it. I chose, uh, Northern [00:01:45] Ireland because I was extremely scared about the NHS, uh, dental [00:01:50] and, um, target cdas and stuff. And I chose Northern Ireland, uh, [00:01:55] because I had a friend there and also it’s a fibre item. [00:02:00] So I said, yeah, even if I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: And you knew that from Romania.

Alex Buciu: So I said, [00:02:05] it’s gonna be like a stepping stone and take it from there, even if I, there’s no target. [00:02:10] So whatever I make, I make and that’s it.

Payman Langroudi: And had you worked as a dentist in Romania?

[TRANSITION]: Yes. [00:02:15] Yes, I had my own clinic. Yeah.

Alex Buciu: So I qualified in 2004. I [00:02:20] had my own clinic. Uh, and in the last few years before I left, most [00:02:25] of my friends were endodontics or root canal. Yeah. Specialists. [00:02:30] And I started to go on that path. Uh, I was working [00:02:35] under a microscope. I had some dentists that started to send referrals over. So [00:02:40] imagine the shock and the disappointment when, uh, I moved Northern [00:02:45] Ireland and they said, okay, you have 15 minutes to place two amalgams. It’s like an amalgam because I [00:02:50] wrote read about it. But, uh, um, in Romania they are banned [00:02:55] for ten dozens of years. You know, it’s like you have to like, what? Would you play something? I [00:03:00] was like, no. And I would place rubber dam and, you know, floss the rubber dam. And my nurse [00:03:05] would pull her like, we have five people waiting in the.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s not an uncommon story, right? I have [00:03:10] people sitting where you’re sitting, coming from India from all over the world, and their [00:03:15] first exposure to the NHS as shocking for them. Um, [00:03:20] tell me this. The decision to move. I mean, if you were a practice owner, [00:03:25] someone who’s doing endo to that level, why move? I mean, [00:03:30] you could have had a pretty good life in Romania.

[TRANSITION]: I guess it.

Alex Buciu: Was a good life. Um, it [00:03:35] it wasn’t amazing, but it was good. Um, however, the associate [00:03:40] I had, the. I’m not gonna go into too many details. Uh, for the clinic, [00:03:45] things started to deteriorate.

Payman Langroudi: And between you and him.

Alex Buciu: You. Yeah, it [00:03:50] was my sister.

[TRANSITION]: But it was.

Payman Langroudi: Your.

[TRANSITION]: Sister.

Alex Buciu: Yeah. But, uh, dishonesty [00:03:55] and, uh, yeah, theft [00:04:00] and stuff like this.

Payman Langroudi: So then what did the practice start failing?

Alex Buciu: The practice was doing [00:04:05] okay, but I couldn’t be part of that.

[TRANSITION]: I had.

Payman Langroudi: Enough.

[TRANSITION]: Of it.

Alex Buciu: Yeah. So at some [00:04:10] point I, after years of trying to work things out, I said, you know what? You can have everything. [00:04:15] I literally signed everything. You keep everything. I don’t want anything to do.

[TRANSITION]: With.

Alex Buciu: You anymore. [00:04:20] So that was one. Then we had the children and we started to my daughter. [00:04:25] In the first few years of our life, uh, spend most of the [00:04:30] time in the hospital with different, uh, with actually one medical issue that [00:04:35] kept on, uh, reoccurring. And it was extremely easy to [00:04:40] sort out now that I know what it was. Um, but they kept [00:04:45] the medical system was failing anyway. And even though we went privately and we paid private [00:04:50] hospital private still they weren’t weren’t at that level to understand. So in the whole [00:04:55] country, there were only two specialists that, uh, knew about the very [00:05:00] young children, uh, renal issues. And, [00:05:05] uh, until we ended up with one of them, we kept paying and. [00:05:10]

[TRANSITION]: He didn’t have even a diagnosis.

Alex Buciu: So they gave us, like, at some point, 90, uh, uh, [00:05:15] days of three antibiotics just to it’s like she’s gonna get cirrhosis, [00:05:20] you know, by the time she’s five, she’s not gonna have a liver anymore. No, no, no, this is so that [00:05:25] was one. Another one was the, um, judicial [00:05:30] system, which is extremely corrupt. So if you are connected, if you have [00:05:35] money, you have the law on your side.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: If not, [00:05:40] you’re you’re going to be at a loss.

[TRANSITION]: It’s it’s a lot of [00:05:45] countries I.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not sure I can call Romania a third world country, but a in a lot of [00:05:50] those second and third world countries, it comes [00:05:55] a lot down to who you know.

[TRANSITION]: Yep yep yep.

Alex Buciu: That’s correct.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting [00:06:00] thing. Yeah. Because some people are very good at sort of leveraging relationships [00:06:05] or some people are obviously.

[TRANSITION]: Fortunate, really good, fortunate.

Payman Langroudi: Enough [00:06:10] to have huge networks family wise and all that. And some people aren’t.

[TRANSITION]: Right.

Alex Buciu: My, my [00:06:15] network was exclusively, uh, done by me. I didn’t inherit [00:06:20] anything from my family, rather, except from some problems that I [00:06:25] had to sort them out. So not even no, no help. Not even, you know, uh, [00:06:30] so, um, I had my good network, but, [00:06:35] uh, on the other hand, I don’t want my children. I didn’t want that. You ask me why I decided to leave. [00:06:40] So that was, uh, probably the main one. I didn’t want my children to learn to [00:06:45] get away with things like, uh, calling in favours like, look, Alex is my father. Can you help [00:06:50] me out with this? And I want it to be on their own merit, you know? [00:06:55]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: And thirdly, when my daughter started school there, she was [00:07:00] six, even though she was a good, uh, school in our, uh, hometown. [00:07:05] Uh. The the process [00:07:10] and the level of, uh, knowledge the teacher [00:07:15] had was very, very low. Very every. So we [00:07:20] started, like, look, medically is crap. Judicial crap. [00:07:25] Uh, education, education is also failing [00:07:30] and getting from bad to worse. So it’s like there’s no point, uh, my business. I told you I wasn’t [00:07:35] too happy with them. And I started to cut down my days. So I was doing part time [00:07:40] with other different clinics, so I. There’s no point. And I had [00:07:45] a friend, a dear friend of mine from probably ten years [00:07:50] before. She kept saying, Come to England. She was working in Norwich at the time. I [00:07:55] went and visited her. I think it was 2011 and I shadowed her for a few days, [00:08:00] and I was shocked by the system [00:08:05] and how many patients you’d see in a day, like in and out, in and out, when I would stay with my patients [00:08:10] and talk a lot and got friends with them and, you know, so completely [00:08:15] different. Then I was like, no, I’m not ready. At the time I was ascending, I was going [00:08:20] up, up, up, up, up. So I didn’t want to pull the brakes then. And [00:08:25] uh, yeah. So this is why I ended up in Northern Ireland. And, um, [00:08:30] few years back, I moved to England, to Peterborough. [00:08:35] This is our home town now.

Payman Langroudi: But when you made the decision to move, how [00:08:40] long after did you move? I mean, was there an amount of saving money [00:08:45] or Romania?

[TRANSITION]: You mean selling houses or whatever? Selling [00:08:50] nothing.

Alex Buciu: It didn’t have anything to.

[TRANSITION]: What was the prep.

Payman Langroudi: For it? And then. And [00:08:55] then the sort of the you know what what were you timeframe? Yeah, yeah. What were you worried about [00:09:00] coming over and what was the reality when.

[TRANSITION]: You.

Alex Buciu: Only had one worry? And that was if the [00:09:05] children would get, uh, integrated? Yeah, if they’re gonna. Because none [00:09:10] of them knew English.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Um, and, uh, we started with some, uh, [00:09:15] private tuition. Uh, but, uh, that was my main worry. Uh, [00:09:20] in the when we moved to northern, it was [00:09:25] the very last few days of school, so I had to, uh, like [00:09:30] a parrot, teach my daughter, say toilet, please. You know, my [00:09:35] name is Sophia. Toilet, please. I didn’t want, like, could may I go to the toilet? May I know? [00:09:40] Just basic. So she wouldn’t wet herself, you know. So [00:09:45] that was the level of English. And now she speaks like she’s the queen.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Alex Buciu: She [00:09:50] has a very posh accent. Like, tone.

[BOTH]: It down to me like it’s like. [00:09:55]

Alex Buciu: And ask her in Romanian. She understands, but she replies in English.

Payman Langroudi: And had you arranged [00:10:00] the job before you came over?

[TRANSITION]: Yes. Yes, yes.

Payman Langroudi: So how did that work?

Alex Buciu: Um, [00:10:05] we we had lots of interviews over the phone and, uh, um, [00:10:10] the, uh, no, it went straight forward. It was with Bupa at [00:10:15] the time.

[TRANSITION]: So were they.

Payman Langroudi: Were they in Romania looking for dentists?

[TRANSITION]: Was that.

Alex Buciu: Um.

[TRANSITION]: How did [00:10:20] you how did you know about. My friend put.

Alex Buciu: Me in contact with, uh, them, but [00:10:25] they would go from time to time to Romania to for for recruitment. Uh, [00:10:30] yes, but I never attended any events of them. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you get to England, you [00:10:35] start working, you put your kids in just a normal English school.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah. [00:10:40]

Payman Langroudi: And obviously difficult for them the first six months.

[TRANSITION]: No, no.

Alex Buciu: Amazingly [00:10:45] enough, they they love school. So again, the school in Romania was 100 [00:10:50] years behind. So even if it was not Northern [00:10:55] Ireland, not a very wealthy part of our country, um, [00:11:00] the people were lovely. The teachers, they literally [00:11:05] couldn’t wait so they would cry when we took them from when we picked them up from school, they wanted [00:11:10] to go back to school. This is something unheard of. We keep telling. Wow. Even now, they [00:11:15] they hate the holidays and they want to go back to to school.

[TRANSITION]: What a.

Payman Langroudi: Great. [00:11:20]

[TRANSITION]: School.

[BOTH]: It’s a public school.

Alex Buciu: Don’t get me wrong.

[BOTH]: They’re public school.

Alex Buciu: But my [00:11:25] daughter at least knows the difference because she had two years in the Romanian school, so [00:11:30] it’s more, uh, pupil centred. And. [00:11:35] Yeah, we’re going into philosophy now. The the way we [00:11:40] were born and communist. If you don’t count as a person, it’s the whole [00:11:45] country. Yeah. You know, so here every.

[TRANSITION]: It’s.

Payman Langroudi: All about the individual. [00:11:50]

Alex Buciu: Every individual counts. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: That’s it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So dairy as a town. I [00:11:55] mean, not a very big town, is it?

Alex Buciu: Uh, 120,000 [00:12:00] people, roughly.

Payman Langroudi: Which town were you in? Romania?

Alex Buciu: Constanza. So I was, uh, [00:12:05] born on the seaside. Sea shore? Yes. Of the Black Sea. Constanza is [00:12:10] one of the biggest cities in Romania. And it’s, uh, very, very, [00:12:15] uh, beautiful town when we don’t have tourists, which [00:12:20] is May to October, roughly. But June, July, August, September is the craziest. [00:12:25] Yeah, they litter and they’re loud and they, you know, motorcycles [00:12:30] at 3:00 racing and, um, but, uh, we have very, very [00:12:35] wide. Nice, fine sand beaches. Like 400 miles. Imagine. [00:12:40] Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Well.

Alex Buciu: Again, this, uh, the [00:12:45] corruption, uh, they started to build, uh, kicked in and they started to build [00:12:50] hotels on the on the sand on the actual beach, which is illegal. And, [00:12:55] uh, they didn’t even think it through because the sun comes from [00:13:00] the sea, like in is exactly towards east. And they put their, [00:13:05] uh, hotel. So that means from maybe 12, 1:00, uh, after [00:13:10] lunch, uh, all the beach starts to get in the shadow.

[TRANSITION]: Uh.

Alex Buciu: So [00:13:15] they’d be like, most, like.

[TRANSITION]: Ten.

Alex Buciu: 12, 15.

[TRANSITION]: Stories. [00:13:20]

Alex Buciu: So by by the time the sun starts to go in the second part, the [00:13:25] west west, everything is just like you’ve shot yourself in the foot. Why [00:13:30] would you do that? Like so.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Your initial feelings on dairy like as [00:13:35] a as a town. It was like what didn’t have much of stuff that Constanza had, right?

Alex Buciu: No, no, [00:13:40] no.

[TRANSITION]: It’s like.

Alex Buciu: Irish English.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Alex Buciu: Parts. Yes. We [00:13:45] lived, you know, about the troubles and everything. Yes, we lived there exactly [00:13:50] where they started.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, yeah.

Alex Buciu: So like 500m away from where those troubles, [00:13:55] unfortunately, are still going on every Thursday, Friday, Saturday there’s [00:14:00] a riot, there’s a shooting, there’s a fire. There’s a. So [00:14:05] yeah, very, very sad. Um, because [00:14:10] we don’t look local. We were always safe. So they would look at us and like, no, [00:14:15] like they are not either or.

[TRANSITION]: And.

Payman Langroudi: Not as many immigrants [00:14:20] in Northern Ireland as.

[TRANSITION]: They weren’t in the rest.

Alex Buciu: However, in the last few years, yes, [00:14:25] there’s been lots. Yeah. So, uh, there was a love [00:14:30] for this. Um, there was only black, uh, patient, lovely, [00:14:35] lovely guy. Um, and, uh, he was my patient there, and everybody [00:14:40] knew him. You know, I cannot say names, you know, um, and everybody [00:14:45] says, oh, he’s he’s. Yeah. And I was talking to him once and he said, uh, [00:14:50] and I said, what do you do? Oh, I’m into weddings. And I was like, oh, are you a priest? I was like, no, no. He started to [00:14:55] laugh. No, no, no no no. I just do videography with drones and stuff. Oh my god. And ever [00:15:00] since he’s like, I’m not a priest. I’m not. I’m not a minister. But he said he’s [00:15:05] doing weddings. I initially thought he’s the one, you know, doing the religious [00:15:10] part.

Payman Langroudi: So then this practice was Bupa and 100% NHS.

[TRANSITION]: When. [00:15:15]

Alex Buciu: I moved in. Yes. Um, with the support of the practice manager [00:15:20] and, uh, it was very difficult to switch, uh, [00:15:25] approaches and ideas. I tried to talk to my, uh, patients [00:15:30] about the private option and discuss. And that was 2018 [00:15:35] and well when still it was fully NHS private [00:15:40] was just something very, very seldom offered. [00:15:45] And after the first year about 35% of my income was private. [00:15:50] After the second year it was 60 something percent. So I did prove [00:15:55] like, you just need to talk to the patient, explain to them the differences. Don’t, uh, go [00:16:00] by default your NHS. So you get an amalgam or you NHS, you we [00:16:05] can only get you this and that. We can offer this, this, this, that would cost this advantages, [00:16:10] disadvantages.

Payman Langroudi: So and so for that work you’d actually would like slow down and do it properly [00:16:15] and.

[TRANSITION]: I would.

Alex Buciu: Slow down. No, no I, I’m a slow dentist. No I work doesn’t [00:16:20] matter. Even if it was an amalgam I would have rubber dam on and.

[TRANSITION]: Oh really. Yeah. [00:16:25]

Payman Langroudi: Oh really.

Alex Buciu: Yeah. My managers were not happy.

[TRANSITION]: I was not from that point of [00:16:30] view.

Alex Buciu: I was not efficient in their spreadsheets.

[TRANSITION]: And, you know, I was like, oh yeah. [00:16:35]

Alex Buciu: Other people see like 60, 70 patients a day. It’s like, yeah, I had like 20 today. [00:16:40] And most of them were exams and but I wanted to do the dentistry I, I loved [00:16:45] and uh, found some patients that were happy to pay [00:16:50] for that with time. I, uh, met a lovely, [00:16:55] lovely dentist and he became my mentor afterwards. Uh, very, [00:17:00] uh, out of the social media, under the radar. [00:17:05] Kieran, if you’re listening to this, love you man. Uh, [00:17:10] he he took me under his wing. He has a private practice [00:17:15] just outside Derry. Top specialist. But again, you look at [00:17:20] there’s no website or no Instagram. He’s very low profile.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:17:25]

Alex Buciu: Uh, but other top specialists from Northern Ireland. We say, okay, we recommend you go to him for [00:17:30] this full mouth restorative or whatnot. And, uh, I worked [00:17:35] a lot at that practice. And again, I gave my 100%, uh, in [00:17:40] the on the Saturdays, Friday, Saturday I would stay and do letters for the patients. So after [00:17:45] a new patient exam, a letter sometimes would be like 18 pages. So [00:17:50] that’s proper writing. Sundays would be the clinic and discuss [00:17:55] cases and he would teach me, this is how you do this. This is how you approach this. This is how you explain [00:18:00] this. So it reignited my spark, which started to be very dull by the doing [00:18:05] the NHS.

[TRANSITION]: And where did.

Payman Langroudi: You meet Kieran?

Alex Buciu: At uh.

[TRANSITION]: At [00:18:10] a course.

Alex Buciu: At a course? Yes. He gave a small lecture. You [00:18:15] know, we have to do like peer reviews.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: And never done a peer review in England. But [00:18:20] they are mandatory in Northern Ireland.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Um, and every two years. And I [00:18:25] met him, I think, at a course, something like this, and we ended up talking. I kept interrupting [00:18:30] because I’m that guy in the first row with the hands up and asking questions. And, [00:18:35] uh, he noticed me and we started to talk and exchange numbers. Let’s [00:18:40] meet for lunch. And.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, so.

Payman Langroudi: I was going to say I after my smile maker. I saw [00:18:45] you at lots and lots of courses. You’re always at courses and you’re even, [00:18:50] you’re quite, quite, quite a lot on social media and, you know, very involved [00:18:55] and curious and trying to get better all the time. And as you say, asking questions [00:19:00] and, you know, you stood out, you know, I see thousands of dentists at MSM and you stood [00:19:05] out as someone to me. And then we met each other again. And where did this come from? Like, when [00:19:10] did you become this sort of excellence driven person or were you always, I mean, were [00:19:15] you were you were you that seven year old as well, or was there a moment of inflection [00:19:20] necessarily?

[TRANSITION]: I, I.

Alex Buciu: Cannot pinpoint to a moment, uh. [00:19:25]

[TRANSITION]: Because you probably.

Payman Langroudi: Get what I’m saying about some dentists are like that and you see them everywhere, and [00:19:30] then some dentists are the exact opposite. Never want to learn anything, do anything.

[TRANSITION]: Just probably. [00:19:35]

Alex Buciu: The entourage, the my friends that were the are still the [00:19:40] top endodontists in Romania and we like challenged ourselves [00:19:45] and I was trying to I was looking up to them and trying to.

[TRANSITION]: Do.

Alex Buciu: A little bit not compete because [00:19:50] they are way ahead. Yeah, but you know, get better, get better, better, better. And [00:19:55] when I moved to UK again I.

Payman Langroudi: Stayed with you that.

[TRANSITION]: Idea [00:20:00] of improvement.

Alex Buciu: Because financially when I moved to UK I had [00:20:05] 3100. I was ashamed to say it, £3,100 in my pocket. That’s it.

[TRANSITION]: Wow.

Alex Buciu: Okay. And half of [00:20:10] them were were borrowed from a friend.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Alex Buciu: So imagine I spent this in the first week [00:20:15] because I had to pay rent and the deposit and then the the apartment we got, [00:20:20] I came alone and they followed me. My wife and the kids. After a [00:20:25] few months, I had to buy literally everything from forks to duvets to.

[TRANSITION]: Salt [00:20:30] and pepper. Yeah, salt and pepper.

Alex Buciu: You know. Beanbag. Everything. Everything? [00:20:35] Yeah. Like everything. And, uh, after a week, I started to panic. Like, okay, [00:20:40] when is this the salary coming? Because I’m not gonna be.

Payman Langroudi: Thank goodness you had a job. [00:20:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Alex Buciu: And, um, I had to be really careful with [00:20:50] the money. So with every course I take or everything, I look into it a lot [00:20:55] and ask lots of feedback about the course before I choose. Because if, say, like composite bonding [00:21:00] is like there’s going to be ten providers. Yeah. Um, I don’t know. Preps. [00:21:05]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. There’s so many.

Alex Buciu: Yeah. So. And I have to be again, really, really [00:21:10] careful of the courses I choose because I want to make the most of it. And [00:21:15] I’m happy with the my process of choosing courses. [00:21:20] Uh, the sometimes it takes a year, maybe more, until. [00:21:25]

[TRANSITION]: You just.

Payman Langroudi: Try and find loads of people who’ve been on them.

Alex Buciu: Look online, look on social [00:21:30] media, look on cases, look on Pierre. There’s so many resources. We have our, [00:21:35] uh, we have our WhatsApp groups with different alumni [00:21:40] from. So you ask around.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm. The [00:21:45] problem is.

Payman Langroudi: Tubules.

Alex Buciu: Uh, I’m.

[TRANSITION]: Not sure anymore.

Payman Langroudi: Which [00:21:50] WhatsApp group is it. What kind of thing are we talking.

Alex Buciu: So, uh, there’s [00:21:55] different. I have my friends like Romanians in UK. [00:22:00] Friends, uh, friends from, uh, the, you know, sunny, [00:22:05] sunny for the GTA. I have probably three groups with them.

[TRANSITION]: Sunny, sunny. [00:22:10] Yeah, yeah, we’re gonna.

Alex Buciu: Get to talk about him.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, we’re gonna talk.

Alex Buciu: So, uh, [00:22:15] there’s lots of dentists for dentists, Facebook, the [00:22:20] dentists on Facebook there’s different.

[TRANSITION]: So you deeply.

Payman Langroudi: Research which composite [00:22:25] course to.

[TRANSITION]: Go. I love that because I’m, I’m.

Alex Buciu: Uh not a wealthy person. I don’t [00:22:30] have anything nobody gave me ever gave me money or family help or anything [00:22:35] like this. So I really need to be really careful what I spend it on. And, [00:22:40] um, so.

[TRANSITION]: But did you.

Payman Langroudi: Ever get this wrong? Did you ever go to a course thinking it was going to be amazing? And it wasn’t. [00:22:45]

Alex Buciu: Once, once, uh, with With [00:22:50] No Name? Uh, gentlemen, that’s really, really high. Uh, [00:22:55] looked at, uh, for his area. I cannot say what he is, uh, [00:23:00] teaching because you’re gonna guess who it is. Uh, but, uh, all [00:23:05] day, all. So I had to travel to Bristol. Already [00:23:10] a clue. Uh, so for the course and, uh, all day, [00:23:15] Every question I would ask is like, ah, answer to this later. Uh, I’ll get to this later on. Oh, [00:23:20] I’m going to talk about this in the afternoon. I’m going to say, uh, we ended [00:23:25] up the course. Oh, the ask so many questions like, can you answer me? Like, yeah, [00:23:30] email me and I’ll reply to. And he never replied. So all the course was just presenting his, [00:23:35] uh, cases and, uh, upselling his big course, you know.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Alex Buciu: So I was very disappointed [00:23:40] that the course was not very expensive, but I left [00:23:45] with a bitter taste because I wanted to get some answers. You know, this is why I go there [00:23:50] to. Yeah, I, you know, if you ask a question, you’re stupid for a minute. [00:23:55] If you don’t ask a question, you’re stupid for the rest of your life. So I’m a true believer in this. I stay [00:24:00] in the front row, ask all the questions that I can think of when you [00:24:05] you ask me how I choose sometimes is not very, uh, straightforward. [00:24:10] Because if You’re choosing to go to a certain [00:24:15] course. Like I know restorative that I started with tiptoe now. Um, [00:24:20] nobody has done restorative deep restorative with restorative with [00:24:25] restorative with this. So they can have a objectives. Look I’ve done all restorative available and [00:24:30] this one is the best. All are gonna say they’ve done the best one.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Okay. So [00:24:35] you have to take it with a pinch of salt and to gauge it a bit.

[TRANSITION]: Very true.

Alex Buciu: Yeah. [00:24:40]

Payman Langroudi: Very true. I mean, it’s the same with even when someone’s bought an expensive piece of equipment, they [00:24:45] have to convince themselves.

[TRANSITION]: It was the right thing to do.

Alex Buciu: Yeah. Buyer’s [00:24:50] remorse a little bit, and then it starts to.

Payman Langroudi: And by the way, if we’re talking these sort of year [00:24:55] courses, you know, like where you turn up eight times, I mean, you’ve got to be a pretty uncharming [00:25:00] guy for someone to meet you eight times in a year and still not like you.

[TRANSITION]: Well, [00:25:05] what I can tell you.

Alex Buciu: The first day with [00:25:10] Professor Tipton. Uh, at the first coffee break, that was like, [00:25:15] half ten.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: He already pulled me aside. I was like, look, let others answer. And [00:25:20] it’s like, in a most charming way, you know, very like, look, let others answers. [00:25:25] Uh, when I ask questions, don’t answer the first one. Let others think. Before I was so, so [00:25:30] excited. You know, I waited to to participate. And I apologise to the professor [00:25:35] to to this. And next day we met in Birmingham at the show.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, [00:25:40] yeah.

Alex Buciu: And I apologised again and said, look, don’t confuse my enthusiasm with rudeness. [00:25:45] I’m really, really wanted to to attend your course for so many years. And I saved [00:25:50] a lot of time. It’s like, yeah, no, but yeah, I have to let others. Uh.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:25:55] what have you done? You’ve done that. What else have you done? You’ve done ours. Our composite course.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:26:00]

Payman Langroudi: You’ve done so.

[TRANSITION]: Many courses.

Alex Buciu: Wise worth mentioning.

[TRANSITION]: Wow.

Alex Buciu: Uh. [00:26:05]

[TRANSITION]: Sunny schools.

Alex Buciu: So I want, I need to start with obob.

[TRANSITION]: Bob. Oh.

Alex Buciu: And [00:26:10] be jazz and Mahmoud. Amazing. Amazing guys. And unachievable they do [00:26:15] now, which is a practical continuation of the theory in Abab. The [00:26:20] the course was explained so nicely and logically, it’s impossible not to follow [00:26:25] and understand what is taught, and I struggle to understand the nitty gritty of occlusion [00:26:30] for years and read all the dry books and everything. Uh. [00:26:35] I ended up even more confused, uh, compared to when I started [00:26:40] reading the books. But after about, uh, what I can say is that everything felt [00:26:45] like a eureka moment where when you finish a big puzzle, you have put the last pieces together.

Payman Langroudi: Gone, [00:26:50] gone. Summarised the moment in aha! When [00:26:55] it comes to occlusion. What was it.

[TRANSITION]: That you.

Alex Buciu: In a nutshell. Like they.

[TRANSITION]: They [00:27:00] have.

Alex Buciu: Different modules.

Payman Langroudi: I know, but hit me. Don’t hit me with what was it? What was the [00:27:05] moment when you realised what what was it? What thing? What thing can you tell me about?

[TRANSITION]: Occlusion. [00:27:10] For me, it’s a breakthrough.

Payman Langroudi: Thought.

[TRANSITION]: For you.

Alex Buciu: For me, it’s like a spiral. Okay, [00:27:15] so you’re in a happy place, and then you learn a little bit more, and it’s like. Oh, that [00:27:20] puts everything.

[TRANSITION]: Into perspective.

Payman Langroudi: Specifically.

Alex Buciu: Okay.

[TRANSITION]: An example.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:27:25] don’t mean everything.

Alex Buciu: An example landing pads design. [00:27:30] So when you construct a crown.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: How you communicate the definition. [00:27:35] And you know there’s the tripod contact and the cusp fossa. [00:27:40] Or there are different concepts, different pancakes and different pathology [00:27:45] and whatever. This one is a very nice concept. It’s literally like a landing [00:27:50] pad. And the opposite cusp goes on the on this pad that is [00:27:55] a little bit, uh, elevated of, of the occlusal. Now, if [00:28:00] the crown, let’s say it’s a little high, you can shave off with no problem if it [00:28:05] gets worn with time. You still have a good.

[TRANSITION]: Smooth surface.

Alex Buciu: Contact spread [00:28:10] and is not locked in like it would be in a Forza or with a tripod [00:28:15] contact, which is really stable if you have tripod contact. But what happens [00:28:20] if you start to wear down one of the slopes or the tip? Yeah. [00:28:25] Then you have two contacts, which is very unstable. So that was like actually [00:28:30] makes lots of sense. You know.

[TRANSITION]: Like.

Payman Langroudi: Only is it only the tooth that the.

[TRANSITION]: The [00:28:35] crown, is.

Payman Langroudi: It only the fossa or is it the cusp as well.

[TRANSITION]: No, no, no, you don’t go on.

Alex Buciu: You don’t go on to [00:28:40] on the antagonist. You don’t go on you you just design the, uh. Yeah. [00:28:45] The way you designed where the contact is, is like a landing pad.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:28:50] So it’s a slightly raised area.

Alex Buciu: It’s nice.

[TRANSITION]: Yes. How interesting.

Alex Buciu: Yeah, very, very interesting. [00:28:55] Yeah. I try to talk to my technicians and wasn’t too successful.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: So? [00:29:00]

Payman Langroudi: So then you have to go find a technician who does get it.

Alex Buciu: Yeah, I started after [00:29:05] I started to look more into the TMD, which I always loved, because my wife [00:29:10] clenches and grinds her teeth like crazy. Uh, so I always [00:29:15] tested on her, uh, ideas. Different type of splints [00:29:20] and stuff. Uh, and once I started to understand more, then I done [00:29:25] the splint master course again with jazz. Uh, I done a few more [00:29:30] courses about, uh, TMD eye shadow jazz. Once this [00:29:35] TMD clinic. Uh, you need to know your limits with TMD. [00:29:40] You don’t want some patients. There are some patients that are way more than, uh, you [00:29:45] can, uh, you know, don’t bite more than you can chew. Some [00:29:50] are beyond what you can help with normal exercise. So I know more than a average GDP [00:29:55] about TMD and bruxism, but I also know where I draw a [00:30:00] line and say, look, I can help you up to this point. Further down you have to see a [00:30:05] physiotherapist and there are some good TMD specialist physiotherapists, I [00:30:10] mean, or surgeons or whatnot.

Payman Langroudi: But how do you know when that point comes? What [00:30:15] do you mean? You do it. You do the basic things you do and it doesn’t solve it. Then you know, you.

[TRANSITION]: Know, you’re [00:30:20] at that point.

Alex Buciu: I try to do a proper in-depth exam of the TMJ muscles [00:30:25] and everything, and already I have a provisional diagnosis. If [00:30:30] I see intermittent locking or stuff like, I know, it’s like, [00:30:35] yeah, let’s not uh, probably some exercises, of [00:30:40] course, will help, but I wouldn’t jump on a certain type of splint because there are [00:30:45] so many types of splints. And, uh, yeah, I [00:30:50] you have to know your limits. In most of the cases, it works. Exercises work [00:30:55] normal splint or even a retainer works beautifully for most of the [00:31:00] cases. But yeah, there are some things where it can make [00:31:05] it worse.

Payman Langroudi: So it sounds like you’re kind of becoming a like a I call it [00:31:10] like a super, super generalist. Yeah. Like very good.

[TRANSITION]: At a lot of things.

Alex Buciu: I [00:31:15] never, never heard.

Payman Langroudi: Did you not think of, of of going more into Endo when you got here. [00:31:20]

Alex Buciu: I was put off. I was put off, uh.

Alex Buciu: By [00:31:25] the litigious society. Yeah. So you, you can do a beautiful [00:31:30] endo and they don’t come back for the crown. Five years later, you get a letter from the [00:31:35] solicitor that the tooth broke and it’s your fault, or they don’t brush their teeth.

Payman Langroudi: I think the [00:31:40] litigious risk is just as high in general practice.

[TRANSITION]: Um. [00:31:45]

Payman Langroudi: I’m not sure.

[TRANSITION]: I’m not sure. I’m not sure [00:31:50] I was. I was pretty.

Alex Buciu: Put off by by.

Alex Buciu: By this.

[TRANSITION]: And are.

Payman Langroudi: You saying [00:31:55] you you didn’t have the sort of the bandwidth to become a full on specialist, and [00:32:00] without that you felt.

[TRANSITION]: At.

Payman Langroudi: Risk.

Alex Buciu: I really, really liked it. I really, [00:32:05] really liked it though. But I don’t know, maybe it was the eye. [00:32:10] So at the clinic I had my own apex locator. My own. Even now, [00:32:15] most of the materials and instruments I use are still mine.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Um, probably [00:32:20] if I were in a specialist clinic or somewhere where I would have access to microscope access to [00:32:25] all the goodies and stuff, maybe I would be tempted to go back again [00:32:30] to my first love.

Payman Langroudi: No, but what I’m saying is, you could have even come to Bupa and say I’m a dentist [00:32:35] with a special interest in endodontics, and I want to do the endo for the [00:32:40] for the area or something.

Alex Buciu: Nobody recognises this anymore. So the questions usually were like, [00:32:45] uh, what qualifications do you have? It’s like, okay, okay, very happy with this. But what are the UK [00:32:50] qualifications you have? Like nothing. It’s like so I could know you. [00:32:55] You have to start from the bottom. Unfortunately, nobody will take you as a foreigner to [00:33:00] to this level unless you have some UK [00:33:05] recognised.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But there are lots of general dentists who only do endo. [00:33:10] Yeah, there are lots.

Alex Buciu: Yeah, but they’ve done some.

Payman Langroudi: They’ve done courses.

[TRANSITION]: Training. [00:33:15]

Alex Buciu: Around here.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah they’ve done courses. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Same sort of courses you’re doing with, you know, Obama or whatever. [00:33:20] Yeah I think I’d look into that, you know, because because your standard is probably already at that [00:33:25] level. And, you know, whether or not someone will refer to you isn’t [00:33:30] even the point yet. It’s the question of once you start doing some, [00:33:35] you start telling your employers, for instance, you’re my dentist now, you tell my dentist, Endo [00:33:40] is what I’m good at.

Alex Buciu: I want to be on restorative now, you.

[TRANSITION]: Know.

Alex Buciu: Endo. [00:33:45]

[TRANSITION]: Endo changed your.

Payman Langroudi: Position.

Alex Buciu: Endo now is I know.

[TRANSITION]: It.

Alex Buciu: Attracts me more. [00:33:50] Endo is now when you see your Uh, ex-girlfriend on [00:33:55] the street holding hands with.

[TRANSITION]: The with another guy.

Alex Buciu: The other.

[TRANSITION]: Guy’s like.

Alex Buciu: You [00:34:00] know, like, stuff like this, but.

[TRANSITION]: It’s it’s.

Alex Buciu: Past the moment, you know?

[TRANSITION]: It’s it’s. [00:34:05]

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. Yeah. This question of what were we built to be from the, [00:34:10] you know, dentist’s perspective? Yeah. Because you must get it now. I get loads [00:34:15] of young dentists. You know, one year out and I say to them, hey, what do you want to think? What do [00:34:20] you think you want to do? And a lot of them say, I don’t know. And I’m just trying lots of things to see what I [00:34:25] like.

[TRANSITION]: Which is.

Payman Langroudi: Good. Yeah, I get it, I get it. But don’t you agree with me in the end that, like, whatever you’re [00:34:30] really good at, you’ll enjoy. You know, it’s one of those.

[TRANSITION]: I.

Alex Buciu: Enjoyed it. [00:34:35]

[TRANSITION]: For me.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, whether or not.

[TRANSITION]: You.

Payman Langroudi: Picked Endo or perio or. [00:34:40] Yeah, I’ve picked hydrogen peroxide.

[TRANSITION]: You know, all one [00:34:45] chemical. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever you’re good at, you end up enjoying. But you’re now saying, [00:34:50] having looked quite deeply into To Endo. And now getting into this sort of restorative. [00:34:55]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, occlusion side. You’re saying the restorative occlusion side is turning you on [00:35:00] more?

[TRANSITION]: Yes. That’s interesting.

Alex Buciu: That’s it. Yeah.

Alex Buciu: I again I enjoy many parts of [00:35:05] I don’t enjoy the surgical parts.

[TRANSITION]: I if.

Alex Buciu: An extraction turns [00:35:10] out to be surgical I haven’t assisted orders I suppress I haven’t assisted uh, enough [00:35:15] or there’s surprisingly an extra route or.

[TRANSITION]: Something.

Alex Buciu: You cannot see on the 2D.

[TRANSITION]: X ray. [00:35:20]

Alex Buciu: Then, uh, I do it surgically, but I don’t cannot say I enjoy [00:35:25] it. Yes. So I done the course with Tamar Theodossi, the masterclass. Lovely guy. [00:35:30] Lovely. Whoever wants to up their skills in the surgical should, should, uh, [00:35:35] go to his course. Great value. Um, but. And I’m [00:35:40] confident to do it, but it doesn’t attract me.

[TRANSITION]: Uh, the implants.

Payman Langroudi: No, [00:35:45] because it’s surgery again, right? Yeah.

Alex Buciu: It’s not about.

Alex Buciu: Blood or [00:35:50] anything. It’s just I’ve done.

[TRANSITION]: In.

Alex Buciu: Romania, which is, um, more, uh, [00:35:55] how to say, uh, lean back atmosphere. Yeah, I’ve [00:36:00] done apicectomy. I’ve done, uh, included wisdom teeth. I’ve done, like, with a [00:36:05] surgeon next to me is like just giving me pointers. But I was hands on 100%. Like, I [00:36:10] didn’t enjoy it. I done it’s like. Yeah. Another thing, uh, you know, on my belt, you know, but [00:36:15] I didn’t.

[TRANSITION]: Enjoy it every time.

Payman Langroudi: Invisalign or.

[TRANSITION]: Anything.

Alex Buciu: I’ve done Invisalign course, [00:36:20] I’ve done Clearcorrect course. So I’ve done Invisalign just with [00:36:25] the Covid and stuff. So I didn’t do any, uh, cases. Uh, but [00:36:30] my wife had, uh, two failed, uh, uh, ortho treatments as a teenager, [00:36:35] and she was very conscious about that. And I’ve done the clearcorrect, [00:36:40] which is the same as, you know, there are two guys. Yeah. And, uh, that done [00:36:45] Invisalign, and they two partners, and they split up and [00:36:50] one moved across the street. This is in Austin, Texas, and unclear. Correct. But it’s [00:36:55] more or less, uh, similar, uh, way of, uh, approach. [00:37:00] And, uh, I’ve only done one case. Uh, my wife’s. Yeah. [00:37:05] So that’s if there’s not, uh, romantic enough to of course, just for her.

[TRANSITION]: But she.

Alex Buciu: Didn’t. [00:37:10]

[TRANSITION]: Appreciate. So you didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: You also author doesn’t make you that happy.

[TRANSITION]: Either. Yeah. No.

Alex Buciu: If [00:37:15] you would do.

Alex Buciu: It day in and day out, probably it would be very profitable. Definitely would be. But [00:37:20] on occasion, um, no. Either I do it or I don’t do it. If I do it, I [00:37:25] want to be top 5% of dentists. Yeah, and that’s my philosophy. [00:37:30]

Payman Langroudi: So why did you move from this excellent situation you had going on [00:37:35] in Derry with this, uh, Kieran.

Alex Buciu: Uh.

Alex Buciu: Several [00:37:40] personal reasons, but one of them was, [00:37:45] uh, Um. My wife was not happy there. She couldn’t find any [00:37:50] jobs. It’s, uh.

[TRANSITION]: What does she do?

Alex Buciu: Uh, she. Romania. She was [00:37:55] with a company, uh, private company, uh, gas installations [00:38:00] and stuff like this. But they would do, like, industrial level. So they would do an airport or do half of [00:38:05] a city or do a hospital or stuff. And she also done a master in, uh, I [00:38:10] didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Know.

[TRANSITION]: Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Of course.

Alex Buciu: Uh, master in, uh, [00:38:15] uh, international affairs, something [00:38:20] something I wasn’t paying attention to my, you know, my wife said I have.

[TRANSITION]: To.

Payman Langroudi: Get [00:38:25] you in.

[TRANSITION]: Trouble. Yeah, my wife said, I.

Alex Buciu: Have, uh, two, uh, two down, down [00:38:30] force like to defect. Yeah. One is that I don’t listen to her. And second, there [00:38:35] was something else.

[TRANSITION]: You know.

Alex Buciu: Uh, so she couldn’t find [00:38:40] anything. She even tried, like, a test score or something. Like, literally no job openings. [00:38:45] Nothing.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Alex Buciu: And for me, with the course is if it was a one day course [00:38:50] for me meant taking at least three days off work one travelling one the actual [00:38:55] course one. So multiplying the, the expenses and, uh.

[TRANSITION]: Don’t [00:39:00] you.

Payman Langroudi: Think like that notion of I hear where you’re going? The [00:39:05] reason I’m asking is we came we came to London from Iran and [00:39:10] different circumstances that we had to run away. Revolution and all that. And then [00:39:15] about three, four years after we were in London, my dad said, let’s go to San [00:39:20] Francisco. And I often reflect on, you know, what my life would have been like if we had [00:39:25] gone, yeah, but my mum said, look, I’ve just figured out London [00:39:30] and it took four years to understand, you know, all the things that were down to stupid [00:39:35] things like hairdressers, right?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, obviously school, all that, everything. Understanding [00:39:40] how the town works. I just don’t want to go through another 3 or 4 years of doing [00:39:45] that in another new place. Did you have. Was that a thought?

[TRANSITION]: Um, no. [00:39:50] Dairy in.

Payman Langroudi: Peterborough might be not so different to each other, but.

[TRANSITION]: It.

Alex Buciu: Was. It [00:39:55] was a big move.

[TRANSITION]: It was.

Alex Buciu: But not as big move as from Romania to [00:40:00] UK.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

[TRANSITION]: So you were ready.

Alex Buciu: And now literally today I was telling you we have the we’re moving [00:40:05] houses. So we, I left my wife with the movers and one didn’t show up and the van broke. [00:40:10] And so it’s one.

[TRANSITION]: Of, it’s one of those days.

Payman Langroudi: Crazy that you managed to get a pass from your wife today.

Alex Buciu: I [00:40:15] promise you, I’m a man of my word.

[TRANSITION]: I promise you she is. Yes, [00:40:20] she is.

Alex Buciu: Even though we nearly divorced last night three times.

[TRANSITION]: And [00:40:25] it’s.

Alex Buciu: Like, you know, when you move, everyone.

[TRANSITION]: Is, um. So she itself. [00:40:30]

Payman Langroudi: The move itself again.

Alex Buciu: Now it’s piece of cake.

[TRANSITION]: Move.

Alex Buciu: We move from one place [00:40:35] to another.

[TRANSITION]: Did you have a job already? Yes.

Alex Buciu: She works at a school now?

Payman Langroudi: No, but did you have a job [00:40:40] in Peterborough?

[TRANSITION]: Me.

Payman Langroudi: Went before you moved. Did you.

[TRANSITION]: Arrange? You arranged that? Yeah. [00:40:45] And that was why I.

Alex Buciu: Don’t have any. I, my me and my wife are [00:40:50] are our own backup plan. We don’t have any backup plans. Yeah, okay. No inheritance, no big deposits, [00:40:55] no houses. No, we don’t own anything, you know? Yeah, the cars are a PCP, you know, but, [00:41:00] uh, so, yes, I did, uh, looked into several, [00:41:05] uh, options. And, uh, I found the absolute brilliant, [00:41:10] uh, area manager with, uh, my dentist. He moved. Now [00:41:15] he’s not area manager. He’s still in my dentist, but different, uh, job [00:41:20] and, uh, yes, I was really, really impressed with this guy. And [00:41:25] I came and met him and a couple of times, and I went to see the clinic. The clinic is a [00:41:30] normal dentist clinic. It’s not one of those new ones that are fully refurbed.

Payman Langroudi: And did [00:41:35] you even was the reason you moved to Peterborough? Simply because that’s where the job was. [00:41:40] Or was there another reason.

[TRANSITION]: To have.

Alex Buciu: Different.

[TRANSITION]: Options?

Alex Buciu: And I have been to other places. [00:41:45] Again, my dentist and my dentist. But, uh, the [00:41:50] John, the gentleman that was the, uh, area manager [00:41:55] was so, so, so helpful and went above and beyond to help me with the relocation and everything, [00:42:00] like literally waiting me at the train station, taking me to different clinics. Uh, give [00:42:05] me pointers like, oh, you should look for a house in this area, not in this area. It’s like things that you don’t know [00:42:10] when you are first day in the city. And, uh, secondly, [00:42:15] because Peterborough, I found it from all the options we had, uh, closer [00:42:20] to some friends of ours, which we didn’t even end up, uh, visiting too [00:42:25] often.

[TRANSITION]: In the meantime.

Alex Buciu: But it’s a well connected, like, uh.

[TRANSITION]: Geographic [00:42:30] one.

Payman Langroudi: Out of London.

[TRANSITION]: One hour.

Alex Buciu: And a half to everything.

[TRANSITION]: You know.

Alex Buciu: So [00:42:35] we have the motorways, trains, everything.

[TRANSITION]: And was that a good note? [00:42:40]

Payman Langroudi: Was that straight away all private or was that mixed?

[TRANSITION]: Yes. So when I, when I.

Alex Buciu: Left, [00:42:45] when I left northern I said I’m going to leave NHS behind because it’s not for me. I tried, you know, for [00:42:50] years something. Yes but it. No, it’s, there [00:42:55] are some dentists that thrive in NHS and I know very good dentists that do NHS, but it’s not for [00:43:00] me. It’s good if you have like a stable list and you’ve seen them for many years and then yeah, you [00:43:05] can make some money and be happy and yeah, swings and roundabouts. But uh, for [00:43:10] me to start from scratch. No. And at this practice where I’m at and [00:43:15] I plan on retire at this practice, it’s I’m, I’m working hard to see. [00:43:20] I started from zero patients, so I only saw new patients. I didn’t [00:43:25] take anyone’s list. So yeah, it’s extremely difficult.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: And, uh, many [00:43:30] of the patients are see, are nice, but many are not nice. Are [00:43:35] like fallen off the NHS register. Abusive patients. Patients that have long. [00:43:40]

Payman Langroudi: Histories.

[TRANSITION]: Of histories.

Alex Buciu: Like you’re the seventh dentist I see this month.

[TRANSITION]: Oh.

Alex Buciu: You know you’re [00:43:45] not going to be the best one for them. Uh, so it’s a lot of, uh, [00:43:50] work, work, work. And not necessarily you end up having them as [00:43:55] loyal patients long term.

[TRANSITION]: You know? Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Uh, if [00:44:00] you may, I wanted you just to say, because we started from jazz and we went from [00:44:05] another one that I wanted to, uh, mention as a favourite lecture was [00:44:10] Doctor Sandra. Composite course. Uh, you know, it teaches the [00:44:15] greater curve. Greater curve matrix system. He’s a fantastic speaker. And, uh, [00:44:20] besides the actual metric system, the course is, uh, such a great value as it’s [00:44:25] packed with so many pearls that touch, uh, communication, consent, [00:44:30] uh, composite bonding, direct cuspal coverage, improving the hourly rate, [00:44:35] uh, reflection on your own work. So we were asked to do audits for every single feeling [00:44:40] you do using that, uh, system. So it’s it’s absolutely top course. [00:44:45] So. Jazz and sunny. Honestly, I love these guys to bits. And, [00:44:50] uh, they, they they would be my number one, uh, recommendation [00:44:55] for anyone who wants.

[TRANSITION]: Good.

Payman Langroudi: Friends of mine. Both of them are good friends.

[TRANSITION]: Both.

Alex Buciu: Yeah, they’re they’re really, really great. [00:45:00] Great. Uh, and we started to become friends over the years, you [00:45:05] know?

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the work you do now, then.

Alex Buciu: Gerald. [00:45:10] Dentistry. Nothing crazy. Nothing. Uh, Instagrammable. [00:45:15] My nurses kept asking me to, uh, uh, [00:45:20] make an Instagram account and started to, uh, promote me. And I was like, hey, I’m not. [00:45:25]

[TRANSITION]: The.

Alex Buciu: Type to, um, but I [00:45:30] sometimes post my cases on some WhatsApp groups we’re on and [00:45:35] we discuss them and I know there’s no judgement. Nothing.

[TRANSITION]: So process the.

Payman Langroudi: Process of going from [00:45:40] zero patience to how many days are you fully.

[TRANSITION]: Booked?

Alex Buciu: Three days.

[TRANSITION]: Now you’re booked. [00:45:45]

Payman Langroudi: For three days. So do you only work three days a week?

Alex Buciu: Yes, and I am to start at another clinic [00:45:50] now. So I was four days here and cut down to three days. And, uh, [00:45:55] I think three days is a good balance. Uh, the moment. And, uh, [00:46:00] for this.

[TRANSITION]: Clinic, how.

Payman Langroudi: Far ahead are you booked? I mean, are there spaces in your diary next [00:46:05] week?

[TRANSITION]: Uh.

Alex Buciu: As we speak now, the diary has plummeted [00:46:10] in the last 2 or 3 weeks is extremely happy.

[TRANSITION]: So it’s not. It’s just.

Alex Buciu: An [00:46:15] extreme.

[TRANSITION]: Situation.

Alex Buciu: Um, usually not too far [00:46:20] ahead. I’m. I’m delivering private dentistry, and I don’t [00:46:25] want to tell them. Yeah, I help you. Yeah. Come back in six weeks or something. I want to see them [00:46:30] there and then and they pay more, but they need to get more, not better materials [00:46:35] and but also for, you know, uh, better [00:46:40] diary, uh, or for, for them and [00:46:45] quicker scene and usually I see my, my emergency patients. I [00:46:50] don’t have many, but, uh, if they are, I usually see them same day or if they call [00:46:55] for PM, I see them first thing in the morning, you know. So within a few hours. [00:47:00]

Payman Langroudi: And the kind of work you’re doing. Okay. You said general.

[TRANSITION]: General dentistry, do.

Payman Langroudi: You do things like [00:47:05] full mouth?

Alex Buciu: Not yet. I’m waiting to finish with, uh, [00:47:10] Tipton. Just to have, uh, some letters after my [00:47:15] name to to be able to officially do this. [00:47:20] Um, I wouldn’t jump to that, even though [00:47:25] lots of people are afraid of full mouth restorative again, [00:47:30] if you get it wrong, you get it wrong. Okay. Uh, but when you do a denture, isn’t [00:47:35] that the same thing? If you do a full denture, it’s like full restorative [00:47:40] anyway.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I had a prosthetic specialist, uh, Rory [00:47:45] Boyd. He and I asked him about this sort of aha kind of moment in [00:47:50] full mouth, and he said to think of it as a full denture.

[TRANSITION]: No. [00:47:55]

Alex Buciu: So that’s exactly.

Payman Langroudi: To think of it as a full denture as far as the setup. [00:48:00]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, like you you set up the teeth.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. The angles and curves and angles and [00:48:05] all that. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s interesting because I kind of one of my bugbears was in [00:48:10] dental school. They, we did a lot of time on full dentures. A lot of time I was, I was in Wales. [00:48:15] Wales. They used to I don’t know if it’s a myth or not. Yeah, but they used to say, uh, for [00:48:20] the wedding present, the parents would buy a full clearance for their.

[TRANSITION]: I’ve heard about their children. [00:48:25]

Payman Langroudi: I’m not sure it’s real or not, but but there were a lot of [00:48:30] patients, full, full patients in Wales and a big bit of alcohol, I think Dental course in the UK, a big bit [00:48:35] of it is full, full dentures. Yeah. Was yours.

[TRANSITION]: As well. I heard about.

Alex Buciu: It.

[TRANSITION]: In Romania. [00:48:40] No, no.

Payman Langroudi: So, so so I think a lot.

[TRANSITION]: Of.

Alex Buciu: Children.

[TRANSITION]: Man. Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Don’t [00:48:45] pull out their teeth for 18th.

[TRANSITION]: But I used to think, I used to.

Payman Langroudi: Think all the time. Yeah. Of like, [00:48:50] you know, I mean at least full dentures was teeth. But we spent so much time doing things in [00:48:55] dental school that didn’t apply to your once you become a dentist and then [00:49:00] so little time on stuff that you know is quite important, right? You [00:49:05] can come out of dental school now and not have a single little bit [00:49:10] of knowledge on implants, ortho, even even silly [00:49:15] things like whitening. Yeah. They don’t discuss in dental school.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: In [00:49:20] Romania again, I was fortunate. My sister was six years. She [00:49:25] is six years older than me. Yeah. And, um, she. When [00:49:30] I went to uni, she she graduated the the [00:49:35] dentistry. Six years in Romania.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Alex Buciu: And she got the job at the wealthiest [00:49:40] dentist in Romania. Um, because [00:49:45] we recorded I want to tell you some things about, uh, this guy off [00:49:50] the record. We might talk about more, uh, but this [00:49:55] guy kept investing into this, uh, his practice, and, uh, he would come, [00:50:00] like, this weekend. We’re gonna invest. I don’t know, 200 grand, like, no problem. Three months later, like, [00:50:05] yeah, there’s a new generation of whatnot. Strip everything out, just get another [00:50:10] two. So when I went in his surgery, uh, and [00:50:15] coming from, uh, uni, uh, so after, after [00:50:20] classes, I felt like in Star Trek. So literally, if you go now on a spaceship, [00:50:25] that that was the closest I can describe the feeling. Okay. So they would [00:50:30] teach us about, uh, impressions with the copper ring. If you know [00:50:35] that old style, how do you take impressions? And I go, him and I had, like, uh, a silicone. [00:50:40] It’s like. What? Yes. They would teach us about the composites [00:50:45] that our self, uh, cure. That was the top of. Yeah. I would go [00:50:50] to him, he would have light cure and, uh, point for it was that he [00:50:55] would have only politicians and, uh, uh.

[TRANSITION]: Celebrities. [00:51:00]

Alex Buciu: Celebrities. So I met lots of musicians and, uh, um, that [00:51:05] was in the first year. Second year. I already done my first [00:51:10] feeling. Yes. And that was on one of his nurses. Um, third [00:51:15] year, I was already doing feelings and small treatments, [00:51:20] extractions, simple extractions, dentures for family and friends. Fourth [00:51:25] year I already had my endo kit and stuff like this and in the [00:51:30] fourth year we would just start. In the first three years you do more general medicine and the following [00:51:35] three years focus on dentistry because first you need to know the patient and then [00:51:40] focus on the teeth. Teeth are attached to someone. You don’t treat teeth. We treat patients with [00:51:45] teeth problems. And uh uh, one [00:51:50] when my colleagues would start to see how to do a feeling I [00:51:55] already had like a thousand fillings under my belt, you know?

[TRANSITION]: Wow.

Alex Buciu: Um, in the fifth year, [00:52:00] we opened up the clinic. And sixth year. Yeah. So the, [00:52:05] uh, what we were taught in uni, unfortunately, [00:52:10] was irrelevant, and 90% was irrelevant. Yeah, very, [00:52:15] very little. Even the teachers were, um, how they, [00:52:20] um.

Payman Langroudi: Behind the times.

Alex Buciu: Well, behind the [00:52:25] times.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Well behind. So the real dentistry, I was taught by [00:52:30] private courses, uh, courses that don’t give, like, the equivalent [00:52:35] of Cpds or something.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Alex Buciu: Yeah. And, uh, the the biggest [00:52:40] mistake you said that uni doesn’t teach this and that, but but [00:52:45] the biggest one, I would say communication.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: So if I were to start again or [00:52:50] if there’s any newly graduates listening [00:52:55] to your podcast, uh, I would say in the first few years, [00:53:00] 70% invest in reading about patients psychology and [00:53:05] communication courses, not the sales. Sales is a dirty word and shouldn’t [00:53:10] be like sales. Sales should be like an ethical part of sales. But [00:53:15] communication how to talk to the patient. And I am, uh. Guilty [00:53:20] of not knowing how to talk to my patients. For many years, I would talk [00:53:25] like. Yes, you have, uh, generalised periodontitis, stage four, [00:53:30] grade C, unstable. You understand how bad it is?

[TRANSITION]: They’re like, what [00:53:35] the hell? It’s like.

Alex Buciu: So. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So how did you learn?

[TRANSITION]: Read. [00:53:40]

Alex Buciu: Read a lot. And, uh, from with patient interactions. And I understood [00:53:45] after it. It took me a good few years. Five, [00:53:50] ten years maybe.

[TRANSITION]: So you just experience.

Payman Langroudi: Itself.

[TRANSITION]: To experience.

Alex Buciu: Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: And [00:53:55] when.

Payman Langroudi: You say go on a course, did you go on a communications course or read it.

[TRANSITION]: Something? I’ve been to a.

Alex Buciu: Few, like [00:54:00] ash letters.

[TRANSITION]: Uh huh. Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Really really good. Course. But, um, I’m gonna [00:54:05] tell you in a bit about, uh, we keep in contact. Um, it’s. [00:54:10] You have to do a crown for a patient. It’s a completely different chat [00:54:15] you have with a 21 year old young girl and [00:54:20] a 50 year old male engineer. You do a [00:54:25] crown, but they will have a completely different set of questions and priorities. [00:54:30] Yeah, so you have to gauge, you have to adjust your conversation [00:54:35] to who you have in front of you. And if you’re like a broken [00:54:40] record and you say you have like 20 speeches for everything in dentistry, this [00:54:45] is not communication and you’re gonna, uh, end up in trouble. The [00:54:50] if you if you’re like a six out of ten delivering dentistry, six out of [00:54:55] ten, but ten out of ten, uh, communication. They’re gonna love you. You’re [00:55:00] gonna be the best dentist in the world. But if you’re ten out of ten, dentistry wise, clinical [00:55:05] wise, and five out of ten communication, you’re gonna end [00:55:10] up in lots and lots of trouble down the line.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s your top tip then? I mean, it’s quite interesting [00:55:15] because when you say there are some people who who naturally have [00:55:20] it, you know, they when they walk into a room, they’re the life of [00:55:25] a party and they naturally have wonderful communication skills. And you’d imagine [00:55:30] if you want to find out the answer to these questions, you need to ask them. [00:55:35] But what I’ve noticed is often those people, they don’t realise that they have [00:55:40] it. They’re just they’re just being themselves. They’re just a natural. And so they can’t they can’t [00:55:45] pin it down. But someone like you who says you had problems in communication and [00:55:50] now you’re a good communicator, maybe someone like you can pin it down to, you know, what [00:55:55] are key points? Now, listening to people I think is.

[TRANSITION]: Be generally.

Payman Langroudi: Important generally. [00:56:00]

[TRANSITION]: So it took.

Alex Buciu: Me years to understand this, but I put it in a few words. Be genuinely interested [00:56:05] in the person you have in front of you. So generally not so how was your day? And turn around and [00:56:10] start to type on the computer.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Alex Buciu: It’s like, uh, no, I’m genuinely interested in my patients. And [00:56:15] I remember saying, oh, I don’t know. My, uh, I don’t know, [00:56:20] uh, I had a bad back or something. Yeah, I see them six, six months [00:56:25] later. It’s like, first thing I. Hey, John, how are you? How’s your back? Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: So how [00:56:30] were.

Alex Buciu: You? Remember? It’s like. Yeah. Remember? Because again, I don’t treat it. I [00:56:35] treat the patient that has teacher attached. Yeah. So no tooth has ever [00:56:40] worked in my surgery. Someone said someone saw no tooth has ever walked into my surgery. [00:56:45]

Payman Langroudi: You put it in the notes, these things sometimes.

Alex Buciu: Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: It’s a weird.

Payman Langroudi: Or are [00:56:50] you very good with remembering people’s.

[TRANSITION]: Details.

Alex Buciu: But not.

[TRANSITION]: Difficult.

Payman Langroudi: Dentists with [00:56:55] hundreds of patients to remember.

Alex Buciu: I’m not doing NHS though, [00:57:00] so I don’t have so many. And again, the if it’s [00:57:05] patients that I only see them once for emergency or stuff we’re going to focus on their pain [00:57:10] or swelling or whatever. But if they’re patients that come back, we start, you start to get friends with [00:57:15] them.

[TRANSITION]: And by the.

Payman Langroudi: Way, listen, I think it’s good advice to put things like this in the notes. Yeah. [00:57:20]

Alex Buciu: Not in a clinical. Yeah. Just put it on a pop up there or something. But, uh, it’s. [00:57:25]

Payman Langroudi: It’s not a bad thing with the there’s nothing there’s nothing wrong with putting it in the [00:57:30] notes.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Nothing wrong with putting in it. But my, my point is this that you see [00:57:35] a lot of dentists put like, uh, where the guy went on holiday in the notes, [00:57:40] and then six months later.

Alex Buciu: How was.

[TRANSITION]: The how was Italy? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: People love that. [00:57:45]

[TRANSITION]: Right.

Payman Langroudi: But but it’s I if I was a dentist again. Yeah I would [00:57:50] put all sorts of information in marketing terms. They say you need to know the name of the guy’s dog [00:57:55] as.

Alex Buciu: As long as you don’t write their pain in the ass. You know, there was a case, [00:58:00] uh, I saw.

[TRANSITION]: Online a few years back.

Alex Buciu: You’re like.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, like, what [00:58:05] does it mean when the.

Alex Buciu: Gdc is, like, pain in the ass.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, Jesus.

Payman Langroudi: No, [00:58:10] I wouldn’t do that.

[TRANSITION]: No. Just positives. Yeah. Focus on.

Alex Buciu: The positives.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:58:15] want to talk about. I’m quite interested in having come from a country with issues [00:58:20] politically in your childhood. Ceausescu. [00:58:25] What you remember about that society.

[TRANSITION]: Compared.

Payman Langroudi: To afterwards. [00:58:30] And still, you know, Romania is a kind of country that’s gone through so [00:58:35] much like upside from that time till now, [00:58:40] joining the European Union that, you know, as I understand [00:58:45] everything you’re saying about corruption, you know, but overall a much richer society now than back [00:58:50] then.

Alex Buciu: I can give you my own perspective. [00:58:55]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Um, Romania unfortunately, is [00:59:00] they’re still. In the present days, even [00:59:05] though the communism in 89 was, uh, thrown [00:59:10] out the window and everything. Many of the people that, [00:59:15] uh, were leading then still live now, or their friends and, [00:59:20] uh.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Children and stuff. So the is not [00:59:25] 100%, uh, Democratic or open. And yeah, [00:59:30] there’s still some structures that are from the old days, unfortunately.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: But [00:59:35] I can tell you my experience is, uh, uh, because I was 11 [00:59:40] when the big revolution was. And Ceausescu was, uh, shot on Christmas [00:59:45] Day, that, uh. Anyway, uh, my my, uh, [00:59:50] childhood was amazing. Okay. And we we were [00:59:55] poor, but we didn’t know we were poor because everybody was poor. Okay, so, you know, the comparison [01:00:00] is the thief of joy. It’s like everybody was poor and that’s it. Yeah. Um. [01:00:05] The electricity would be cut off. [01:00:10] So life was tough in the evenings to save money. So when I was doing my homework, [01:00:15] uh, I had to do it by the faint light of a campaign.

[TRANSITION]: What time was this?

Alex Buciu: Uh, [01:00:20] 5 to 7 or 4 to 7. Something like.

[TRANSITION]: This. Three hours?

Alex Buciu: Yeah. Yeah. [01:00:25] Every evening, uh, they would do this and recognise the food and everything so [01:00:30] they can, uh, pay the external debt.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: And I understand [01:00:35] at some point, 88 or 89, Romania was the only [01:00:40] country in the world that ever repaid fully their external debt.

[TRANSITION]: Right. [01:00:45]

Alex Buciu: So that’s amazing. Everybody has external debt. Yeah, they they manage to do this [01:00:50] again. I don’t mean it in a good way, but they, they in a good way. [01:00:55] I mean, that is a good way. But that was a good thing, you know, being able to, Um, [01:01:00] shops were empty. Food was rationed, [01:01:05] like one person was allowed half a loaf of bread, a quarter pack of butter and half [01:01:10] a litre of milk a day. Meat was a rare treat, and our [01:01:15] parents would sometimes queue for 12 hours. Uh, for basics at the grocery [01:01:20] store, for example, oranges only appeared at Christmas time [01:01:25] as a luxury product, and even then just a few per persons were allowed and [01:01:30] only if you’re in front of the queue. So sometimes you would queue up not knowing what they’re gonna, [01:01:35] uh, sell, you know? Uh, as children, we [01:01:40] weren’t affected, uh, by, uh, this too much because, okay, we [01:01:45] were unaware of what’s going on.

Payman Langroudi: No. What, you didn’t know?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: About the hardships and, [01:01:50] uh, everything. And, uh, we didn’t know what we were missing, so, uh, [01:01:55] very late, uh, few years afterwards, we started to see like. [01:02:00]

[TRANSITION]: Proper.

Alex Buciu: Sweets and junk food and stuff. Like we ate [01:02:05] the same thing. We dressed the same, more or less because like, there were like three types of [01:02:10] shirts and.

[TRANSITION]: That’s.

Alex Buciu: It. You either have A, B or C, you know.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Um, but, [01:02:15] uh, we were kids and we had like in the summer, uh, three [01:02:20] months of summer school. And as we lived on the beach, we would [01:02:25] leave at 8:00 in the morning and come back maybe at 10 p.m. it fruits off trees [01:02:30] and drink water from the hose garden hoses. And we only [01:02:35] had, like, the, uh, swimming trunks. That’s it. No slippers, no towel, no [01:02:40] nothing. Yeah. So bare feet.

[TRANSITION]: The.

Payman Langroudi: Best life, right?

[TRANSITION]: Go to the beach. The beach was [01:02:45] wild beach.

Alex Buciu: We would swim far into the sea, and the sea was, uh. [01:02:50] Sometimes it was calm, sometimes it was restless. And, uh, this is [01:02:55] how we learned how to swim. Same, uh, most of the times unsupervised. So [01:03:00] we were 30, 31, I think children in our, [01:03:05] uh, area. Yeah, it was a block of flats.

[TRANSITION]: Yes. [01:03:10]

Alex Buciu: One plus minus one year. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So nice.

Alex Buciu: When we go with 30 [01:03:15] people.

[TRANSITION]: Are you still.

Payman Langroudi: Friends with some of those.

[TRANSITION]: People? Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Yeah, I.

[TRANSITION]: Still keep in.

Alex Buciu: Contact. Yeah, yeah, we’re [01:03:20] still close friends.

Payman Langroudi: When. When the revolution happened and Ceausescu [01:03:25] was killed and all that, why was there a period where things were very uncertain?

[TRANSITION]: Yes, [01:03:30] yes.

Alex Buciu: My father was high in the Navy.

[TRANSITION]: Uh-uh.

Alex Buciu: Uh, so, [01:03:35] uh, during the revolution, they kept saying that there’s terrorists. So they they kept getting [01:03:40] these. And my father was stationed and they had guns and probably every other 3 [01:03:45] or 4 days he would come home and had guns with him. And this is I remember the smell [01:03:50] of, uh, of a gun, you know, and, uh, Um, uh, [01:03:55] we are very afraid because he’s he might be shot. And, uh, it proved years [01:04:00] down the line there were no terrorists. And they would shoot. They we were. So, uh, the [01:04:05] fear was so induced that they were paranoid. Okay, so there are [01:04:10] the different military groups, and they say, oh, I spot something, but there’s another military group [01:04:15] from another unit, and they start to shoot each other and they kill each other.

[TRANSITION]: And like.

Alex Buciu: So, so silly, they never caught any [01:04:20] terrorists or any.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: And um, there was like, [01:04:25] uh oh, there was a terrorist in Bucharest. They had like, uh, uh, trainers, like, [01:04:30] okay, like 100,000 people have trainers, you know, like.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: So [01:04:35] silly things like this, uh, it’s, uh.

[TRANSITION]: How long did.

Payman Langroudi: It take before it got [01:04:40] better? Things got better.

[TRANSITION]: Years. Years? [01:04:45]

Alex Buciu: Yeah. 4 or 5 years. When, uh, [01:04:50] the first president that, you know, the president can be re-elected twice. [01:04:55] Yeah, he got re-elected three times. Uh, I think it says a lot.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:05:00]

Alex Buciu: He was a close confidant of Ceausescu and one of in his inner circle.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:05:05]

Alex Buciu: So that was the first president in the Free Romanian [01:05:10] Republic afterwards. So what does he say?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alex Buciu: Um, and, [01:05:15] uh, it the party, the ruling party transformed [01:05:20] and renamed, and it’s still, uh, number one in the country. [01:05:25] So what what can you say about this? You know, it’s sad. Um, [01:05:30] it’s still restless. It’s still. It’s a little bit [01:05:35] more westernised.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: But still lots of the [01:05:40] old ways.

[TRANSITION]: Uh, so you.

Payman Langroudi: Were 11 when he died? When he. When when he [01:05:45] went. And then you saying it take five, six years before there was any sort of improvement?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re [01:05:50] now around 1617, deciding to become a dentist. Why [01:05:55] dentistry?

Alex Buciu: Honestly, I cannot answer to this question I always knew. [01:06:00]

[TRANSITION]: Is going to be good at school.

Payman Langroudi: Were you top of your class or whatever?

Alex Buciu: Pretty good, [01:06:05] pretty good. Not the top one.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, but.

Alex Buciu: Among, um.

[TRANSITION]: I [01:06:10] dentists.

Payman Langroudi: In the family.

[TRANSITION]: I have.

Alex Buciu: I have a auntie [01:06:15] that she’s a dentist. But that wasn’t the influence. I have lots of other [01:06:20] doctors in the family, but biggest for me, it [01:06:25] was one of the two. And if we talk more about this topic, you’ll understand why. [01:06:30] So either dentistry, but no idea why. Uh, so I [01:06:35] always thought, I don’t know, maybe when I was sleeping somebody would come and subliminals like dentist.

[TRANSITION]: Dentist, [01:06:40] you know.

Alex Buciu: Do this and wake up in the morning. He’s like, I’m gonna become a dentist. I don’t know why. Yeah. Or. And [01:06:45] the second was the, uh, any, like, uh, Um. Emergency [01:06:50] doctor. Um, the. Again, [01:06:55] going back to the communist era. Not that now is a big difference. [01:07:00] The the streets are very unsafe driving wise. Okay, so they don’t follow the rules. [01:07:05] They don’t respect on red lights. Cut you off. Lots of road rage. But [01:07:10] in the 80s was worse because there are no emergencies. There were the emergencies, but [01:07:15] just with the name. So you call an ambulance. Might might not come if they answered the phone, if they’re not sleeping [01:07:20] or.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: And my mother was, um, a top [01:07:25] consultant, uh, paediatrician, uh, in the hospital. [01:07:30] Uh, but we when we drove around and we go places, [01:07:35] we would, uh, many times meet, uh, car crashes, okay, [01:07:40] with victims. And she would jump off the car, and we had, like, a small improvised, [01:07:45] uh, first aid kit Doing CPR. Stopping the bleeding. [01:07:50] Triaging. Assessing. There was no phone, no mobile phones you can call. So you had [01:07:55] to ask somebody else to drive to the nearest. So that one really, [01:08:00] really affected you. Made a deep mark [01:08:05] in in my, uh, child’s mind, uh, when [01:08:10] I was, uh, 14. Uh, so I was like, uh, [01:08:15] first aid. And it’s so important, like basic life support, first aid [01:08:20] before the first aiders come, you know?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alex Buciu: Uh, when I was, she was [01:08:25] working crazy hours, uh, and, uh, she [01:08:30] started to have some, uh, high blood pressure and some medical issues. Uh, [01:08:35] and she was 48, and I was 14. And one afternoon I came from [01:08:40] school and we were lying in bed and we were talking, and then she stopped answering, And [01:08:45] I turned around. I remember exactly I had my first pair of [01:08:50] blue jeans. Yes. And I saw someone on the street. It was like purplish [01:08:55] colour. And that was like, you know what? Can I dye them? Can I make them? [01:09:00] I just and she didn’t answer. Like what’s going on? It was very mummy’s boy. I was like, [01:09:05] my son is to my wife. And, uh, she was [01:09:10] looks like she was sleeping. And I tried to wake her up. It was not right. And we were alone [01:09:15] at home, but she. She had a massive stroke, and she slipped into a coma. [01:09:20]

[TRANSITION]: Wow.

Alex Buciu: It took about ten minutes. Uh, just [01:09:25] by then, my father was supposed to come home. And, uh, I didn’t know what to [01:09:30] do. Like you can imagine.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Buciu: What a shock. And, uh, my [01:09:35] father called, uh, the doctor. Doctor was was living pretty close. [01:09:40] She she came in 15 minutes or something. Think we took her to the hospital, [01:09:45] but she died in the next couple of days. So I [01:09:50] was. You can imagine. Shocked by this.

[TRANSITION]: How old were you?

Alex Buciu: Uh, 46 now? [01:09:55]

Payman Langroudi: No. Back then.

[TRANSITION]: 14.

Payman Langroudi: 14.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Wow. So, uh. [01:10:00]

Alex Buciu: Everything crumbled in my family afterwards. So she was [01:10:05] the cement?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: So things started to get worse [01:10:10] afterwards. Um. And I. My mother [01:10:15] was a saint. I, I say it with my full heart. [01:10:20] Uh, I every day, I think [01:10:25] how my life would have been if she would be around. So there’s no five hours in [01:10:30] a row when I don’t think about my my mother and how it [01:10:35] started. The domino effect, you know.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Alex Buciu: And, uh, we went through [01:10:40] some really bad patches like poverty wise. And, uh, [01:10:45] my father stood up to the, uh, occasion for that time, [01:10:50] and, uh, sorry, I get a bit, uh, and we [01:10:55] had moments when it’s like, okay, we only have this amount of money, [01:11:00] we can buy bread or we can send you for tuition, you know, so I can [01:11:05] get into dentistry. So what do we do? Okay. And we ended [01:11:10] up, uh, either, uh, getting food from, uh, grandparents [01:11:15] even though they are poor as well, or, uh, borrowing [01:11:20] some money. But he always gave me money to go to private tuition so I can [01:11:25] become a dentist. And there was no second chance. Like, if [01:11:30] you don’t make it now, he would retire next year. So it’s like, I’m not going to be able to even do [01:11:35] that.

[TRANSITION]: Wow. So your.

Payman Langroudi: Sister.

[TRANSITION]: Was in.

Payman Langroudi: Dental school at [01:11:40] this point, right?

[TRANSITION]: Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: Your sister was already in dental school.

[TRANSITION]: Yes, yes. So.

Alex Buciu: Uh, [01:11:45] many of the choices I had to do and things I had to go [01:11:50] through my life was like, you only have, like, one opportunity. There’s no safety [01:11:55] net. You either do it or you don’t do it. So, yeah. [01:12:00] Um, after what happened to my mother, I kept thinking, like, [01:12:05] everybody should know how to do the basic. Not that I could have done anything for her. So in [01:12:10] that small. I’m opening a small parenthesis. Um, in [01:12:15] the hospital, even though everybody knew her. It’s a big regional hospital, and, [01:12:20] uh, everybody knew her. They still wanted bribe to [01:12:25] in the first hour. If you inject some sort.

[TRANSITION]: Of.

Payman Langroudi: Heparin or [01:12:30] something.

Alex Buciu: Yeah, it can be, uh, not heparin. Uh, anyway. [01:12:35]

[TRANSITION]: Doesn’t matter. Something like that.

Alex Buciu: Uh. It can reverse [01:12:40] or limit the damage. Uh, and they wouldn’t, uh, [01:12:45] give it to her for about a day and a half. They wanted bribe. And my father said, [01:12:50] I’m not gonna bribe you. You know who she is. And you know. And you have it here. And they said, no, [01:12:55] we don’t have it.

[TRANSITION]: Wow.

Alex Buciu: And then after a day and a half [01:13:00] again calling in favours and stuff, they, uh, give it to her. But [01:13:05] what’s the point? It’s one hour, not 36 hours. Anyway, uh. [01:13:10] After this again, I started to see, uh, that [01:13:15] first aid is very important and, uh, uh, throughout. [01:13:20] So up until when I left, uh, Romania, I kept trying and I talked. [01:13:25] I ended up in some situation when I talked to top politicians, uh, guys from [01:13:30] the education minister, uh, guys who had power [01:13:35] and they could with a cold. They could make it happen. Yeah, I said, I’m gonna do it for free. I [01:13:40] have some friends that work in the emergency services. I know how to do this. [01:13:45] I’m gonna go and teach them for free. First basic life support and then dental [01:13:50] education.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Lots of promises and nothing happened. Nothing? Nothing, nothing. [01:13:55] I said I’m doing it on my own time and with my own resources. [01:14:00] And it’s like, yeah, but, you know, it’s complicated. If you do it for one, then you have to do it for everyone. It’s [01:14:05] like, do it. I’m showing you and I’m giving you the know how.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Anyway. [01:14:10] Nothing happened. I take it as a big failure this time because I tried [01:14:15] for so many years, I couldn’t make it.

[TRANSITION]: Sure.

Alex Buciu: The only thing I could do is at the same hospital where my [01:14:20] mother was admitted, and later she died. I volunteered as [01:14:25] a doctor, and for a few years, I was a volunteer [01:14:30] there. Uh, the major trauma and resuscitation. Um, uh, [01:14:35] room uh, again with calling in favours. [01:14:40] So I offer a volunteer and they are short staffed and they still couldn’t go through unless [01:14:45] I. And uh, it was again another moment of growth [01:14:50] where, um, you realise your daily struggles are nothing compared [01:14:55] to the, the, the tragedies you see there. So I [01:15:00] don’t want to turn this podcast into something dark, but I have some examples [01:15:05] or one example, if you want to say you can edit it and cut it [01:15:10] afterwards, you know.

[TRANSITION]: This is quite dark podcast.

Alex Buciu: Um, it, uh, so [01:15:15] I it’s okay. Um, again corruption. Yeah. 18 year old girl [01:15:20] received for her, uh, birthday the driving license from her father without taking any [01:15:25] classes or anything. So like. Yeah. There you go.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: And, uh, Porsche. [01:15:30] Okay. 200, 300 horsepower or something. First thing, she [01:15:35] floors it with three other people in the car, right into a concrete [01:15:40] pillar. Yeah, they all die.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: And, [01:15:45] uh, they start to bring them in bags. Yeah. The black [01:15:50] bags and bags. Yeah, yeah, black. Uh, you know, [01:15:55] the. And the father comes with a suitcase, like huge suitcase. [01:16:00] The one that you would check in. Yeah, full of euros. I don’t know how many millions were there. Like, [01:16:05] we’re talking millions.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Alex Buciu: And brought it to the. And he said, like, save my daughter. [01:16:10] Say like your daughter is in three bags. They brought it here. But literally there’s [01:16:15] like Lego. Yeah. There’s not much. Please, please, please. And then started to [01:16:20] realise what? Because she died of his stupidity.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: He gave [01:16:25] her.

[TRANSITION]: The. Yeah, yeah.

Alex Buciu: Car and the driving license. Like. And she killed [01:16:30] herself within an hour. Yeah. And he fell on his knees and he started to pull his [01:16:35] hair. So when you say like I’m pulling my hair.

[TRANSITION]: Like.

Alex Buciu: That was literally. Yeah. When [01:16:40] he realised this. So they have the money. Just save my daughters. Like money [01:16:45] is nothing.

[TRANSITION]: For.

Alex Buciu: For for this situation. It’s too late. [01:16:50] And I had other things. I think when I would leave there, I stayed in my car [01:16:55] like I’m so fortunate. I’m so grateful for my life. I would drive on [01:17:00] the very, very slow, like it was 2 or 3:00 at night. First lane, like [01:17:05] a like an old man, like.

[TRANSITION]: Oh.

Alex Buciu: My God, I just want to get safely to my to my family. You know. [01:17:10]

Payman Langroudi: You told me you nearly died twice.

Alex Buciu: Ah, yeah. Yeah. So once [01:17:15] when I was 15, um, I [01:17:20] was, uh, first time, uh, with some [01:17:25] irresponsible adults, uh, that knew how to ski like a professional. [01:17:30] Yeah. And, uh, they say top of the mountain, and they chose the, [01:17:35] you know, they have, like, colour coding. Black would be like.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Are you really [01:17:40] sure?

[TRANSITION]: Are you like, it’s like this.

Alex Buciu: For experts only. They chose the black one and [01:17:45] say, yeah, it’s very simple. I literally had a 32nd training. It’s like, yeah. So you keep the skis [01:17:50] like this, you lean on this side to lean on the other side. And if you want to stop, [01:17:55] you do this. It’s like okay, okay, like okay. And they left. It’s like okay. [01:18:00] And I tried a little bit a little bit. And after about half an hour [01:18:05] it was a very narrow path, like literally the two skis stuck together. Yeah. Uh, [01:18:10] Cliff and, uh, big fall on the right hand side and and, [01:18:15] uh, big rock on the left. Yeah. And I went and this [01:18:20] one started to slip, and then the other one slipped, and then, like, 150m down.

[TRANSITION]: It was [01:18:25] like fell.

Alex Buciu: Vertically Nearly. And then he started to go sweet like this. And [01:18:30] at the end there was a tree fallen. And in I went with my [01:18:35] butt first into the tree in between two big branches. So that was really lucky. [01:18:40] Otherwise I would have been impaled, you know.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alex Buciu: And, uh, I was like. [01:18:45]

[TRANSITION]: Were you okay? Nothing.

Alex Buciu: No scratches?

[TRANSITION]: No nothing.

Alex Buciu: Yeah, but it felt like I fell for [01:18:50] hours. You know, like, it felt like a really, really long fall. So look from one. Anyway, [01:18:55] they they were somewhere in front. They stopped. Are you okay? Yeah. Okay. On the. [01:19:00]

[TRANSITION]: Left. It’s like, what the hell, man? It’s like. Really?

Alex Buciu: And [01:19:05] the second time was after Covid, which was extremely stressful for, um, for [01:19:10] me because, again, we, uh, lived paycheque by paycheque, and, uh, [01:19:15] I didn’t know what to expect. And I took what the government said seriously [01:19:20] and literally done everything by the book and try to [01:19:25] be good while others didn’t care. I regret [01:19:30] being that type of person now. Um. And, [01:19:35] um. There were two other things that happened [01:19:40] in 45 minutes. One, uh, fight with, uh, an area manager because [01:19:45] I had booked a trip to Romania after 1 or 2 years, something [01:19:50] like this, and say, no, no, we’re going to open the doors in June. So, [01:19:55] um, you have to be here. It’s like I worked alone for 12,000 [01:20:00] patients in the, uh, during the lockdown and everything. I think I deserve [01:20:05] a week off. And I was like, no, no, no, uh, we didn’t get to an agreement. [01:20:10] And immediately afterwards, there was a very famous among dentists [01:20:15] in UK, a financial advisor who’s a crook. And, uh, I [01:20:20] paid him to, um, sort. Some income protection [01:20:25] for me. Some, uh, months just before the, uh, Covid [01:20:30] started, and, uh, he didn’t give me any proper, [01:20:35] uh, offers like we talked about. And, uh, I lost a [01:20:40] big amount of money, uh, to him. I said, look, you didn’t give me what you [01:20:45] promised.

Alex Buciu: Either you give me the money back or give me the offers or something. It’s like, now what? You’re gonna do that [01:20:50] type of attitude. Anyway, that was. Both of them were in 45 [01:20:55] minutes, you know? And, uh, I started to feel my ears popping and, uh, nothing [01:21:00] hurt or anything, but I felt like, okay, I think I have high blood pressure, and I measured. [01:21:05] I had a monitor. It was, uh, 19 over [01:21:10] 14, something like, okay, I’ll stay in bed a bit and then, uh, 21 [01:21:15] over something like, okay, that’s not good. I called the GP, they said, go [01:21:20] to the hospital. I went to the knee again. They were just opening [01:21:25] after the first lockdown. Were still freaked out at this point and [01:21:30] 16 hours in the knee. And they kept [01:21:35] popping pills and injections and stuff. And the consultant comes. It was about 12:00 at night [01:21:40] and uh, said, uh, well, we tried [01:21:45] everything. So from the legal point of view, I need to inform you that in six hours, [01:21:50] either you die, you go blind, you lose a limb or your kidneys, [01:21:55] uh, fail because nothing is working. So I’m sorry to say this, but there’s [01:22:00] not much we can do. We tried everything.

Payman Langroudi: Was it? Blood pressure was the problem?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: So [01:22:05] they.

[TRANSITION]: Kept.

Alex Buciu: Giving me these drugs, and they kept on growing. Going up. [01:22:10] Yeah. Uh, six hours later, they put me into a [01:22:15] research room. Is preparing for the worst. I was extremely [01:22:20] tired, so that’s the only thing that I felt. So I really want to sleep. I would sleep on my feet. It’s like [01:22:25] they wouldn’t let me sleep. And then a nurse came and said, look, we can get you. [01:22:30] What religion are you? It’s like, that’s a weird question to ask, you know, but I didn’t [01:22:35] realise at the moment. And, uh, she said, we want to [01:22:40] bring a priest to you just to talk to someone. And it’s like, this is when I panicked. This [01:22:45] is when I said, okay, that’s that’s pretty severe, you know? So I took my phone [01:22:50] and messaged my wife, this is my pin to the car. This is the bank account, username and [01:22:55] password, uh.

[TRANSITION]: Everything.

Alex Buciu: Do this today. I mean, get the money [01:23:00] out of my account today. Because if I die, you don’t have access. It’s not a joint account. And then [01:23:05] I recorded a voice message on WhatsApp for my kids. I said, [01:23:10] yeah, yeah, that was really. Yeah, that that this is when I thought, that’s it, end [01:23:15] of the line. And, uh, they kept putting things [01:23:20] into me. And at some point, about two hours later, it started to go [01:23:25] down a bit.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. So was it stress?

Payman Langroudi: It can’t be.

[TRANSITION]: Just just [01:23:30] stress.

Alex Buciu: So it’s genetic. I’m predisposed to this. Again, my mother [01:23:35] had it, and, uh, she died young. Uh, and, [01:23:40] uh, also the Covid, [01:23:45] uh, stress, the stress that was going to happen. Are we going to die? Is it.

[TRANSITION]: Really before.

Payman Langroudi: We [01:23:50] know the vaccine? Right.

[TRANSITION]: Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: The vaccine. Covid vaccine.

[TRANSITION]: What [01:23:55] about.

Payman Langroudi: All sorts of, uh, people said they had issues with the Covid. [01:24:00]

[TRANSITION]: Vaccine? Yeah, I had the Pfizer. I had the.

Alex Buciu: Pfizer, the [01:24:05] second dose as well. First and second. I haven’t done it afterwards. Uh, [01:24:10] not with Pfizer, understand, with others, other brands. So [01:24:15] it was fortunate that way. Uh, but yes, I had patients coming and they say, [01:24:20] look, ever since that, it was instantly I mean, they had it and.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, well, [01:24:25] what a story, man.

Alex Buciu: I don’t want to accuse [01:24:30] anyone of anything, but once you see so many cases, you [01:24:35] you start to see a pattern. You know.

Payman Langroudi: Normally at this point I would say let’s get to the darker part [01:24:40] of the board.

[TRANSITION]: But we’ve been.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve been to some.

[TRANSITION]: Dark parts.

Payman Langroudi: And really, I want to ask [01:24:45] you a question about mistakes. We asked this question all the time. Yeah. Um, so [01:24:50] that we don’t all have to make the same mistakes. What comes to mind when I say clinical errors? What [01:24:55] clinical errors have you had?

Alex Buciu: We talked about one clinical the communication. [01:25:00] That was my top one I would say.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah but.

Payman Langroudi: What case I wouldn’t like a case where [01:25:05] you made a mistake.

[TRANSITION]: Um.

Alex Buciu: Not the [01:25:10] no particular one comes to mind. I’m very critical with all of my cases [01:25:15] or the conversations I had in the first part of my career. I know [01:25:20] I could have done much better. Um, there wasn’t a case where [01:25:25] something happened or led to a complaint or nothing like [01:25:30] this, but maybe I could have explained it in a better way. So the patient [01:25:35] understand, uh, the gravity of the situation. You know, [01:25:40] uh.

[TRANSITION]: I’m not going to.

Payman Langroudi: Let you get away with this.

[TRANSITION]: Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not going to let you get away with that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:25:45]

Payman Langroudi: Look, you’re an experienced dentist. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What does that mean? You’ve [01:25:50] made many mistakes.

[TRANSITION]: In.

Alex Buciu: Communication wise. I’ve been many mistakes in all. [01:25:55] All sorts of my life.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, mistakes. Okay. Another one.

Payman Langroudi: And it doesn’t have to [01:26:00] be communication.

Alex Buciu: Not leaving. Giving too many chances to a place. Giving [01:26:05] too many chances to a clinic or clinical mistakes. Clinical [01:26:10] mistakes?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: I didn’t pull [01:26:15] out the wrong tooth. I didn’t do that. Very common. Maybe a file broken [01:26:20] into the canal, which.

[TRANSITION]: Is.

Alex Buciu: A.

[TRANSITION]: Feeling. [01:26:25]

Payman Langroudi: I’m not accepting it.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Alex Buciu: Okay. Let me think. And mistakes of [01:26:30] veneers that patients were happy with them but weren’t.

Payman Langroudi: Go and tell me [01:26:35] that story.

[TRANSITION]: Tell me that story.

Alex Buciu: So some veneers I did for, uh. That was my first veneer case.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:26:40]

Alex Buciu: But back in Romania, they were okay. She loved [01:26:45] them, but they were too bulky. I keep looking now. I still have the photos, and I go back like, oh my [01:26:50] God, they look like the the orbit, you know, um.

Payman Langroudi: In [01:26:55] Romania though, the people just accept it and move on.

[TRANSITION]: She was happy. Yeah.

Alex Buciu: She started from a [01:27:00] bad place anyway.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, but.

Alex Buciu: Yeah, I have other.

[TRANSITION]: Cases that were brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: On reflection, [01:27:05] what did you do wrong there? You didn’t prep enough or you used the wrong technician or National.

Alex Buciu: Recognition was [01:27:10] good that the condition was better than I was he? He [01:27:15] was a crazy technician, uh, and he taught me. He was the first one. He gave me [01:27:20] books like, uh, porcelain laminated veneers. Yes. Like, look, Alex, you have to read all [01:27:25] these. You have to do this. Uh, he was the one that, uh, pushed me into [01:27:30] magnification, and he said I had money saved for an apartment, and I bought a microscope, [01:27:35] and my wife flipped. You know, like, it’s like I said, I bought my unhappiness, [01:27:40] and I keep remembering. I bought mine because now I’m never happy with, uh, how [01:27:45] my work. So I been the crown, and I get another one, and I been that one. And I had the. [01:27:50] So maybe he he put this one in my head as well. The perfectionist type [01:27:55] which.

[TRANSITION]: The mistakes.

Payman Langroudi: Come to mind.

[TRANSITION]: Mistakes, mistakes.

Alex Buciu: I’m trying to think. Treating, [01:28:00] uh discounting [01:28:05] severely. Discounting counting for friends and family prices. [01:28:10]

Payman Langroudi: Do you think that’s a mistake?

Alex Buciu: Yeah, because I ended up at a loss and I didn’t appreciate [01:28:15] it anyway.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Alex Buciu: And in Romania they all my patients had my private number. [01:28:20] They would call me like 11:00 at night. It’s like Alex, I was thinking [01:28:25] do you remember what I told you. He’s like look man, is it urgent. No. It’s like, why would you call me Saturday at 11:00?

Payman Langroudi: When [01:28:30] I was a dentist, I’d give my number to all my patients and they’d never call.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Never [01:28:35] call. Um, so you don’t want to go down any further [01:28:40] errors?

[TRANSITION]: No, honestly, I’m not. I’m not trying to.

Payman Langroudi: Without mistakes.

[TRANSITION]: No, no, no, [01:28:45] I look.

Alex Buciu: If I’ve done some mistakes, maybe.

[TRANSITION]: The patient didn’t return and I.

Alex Buciu: Wasn’t aware of.

[TRANSITION]: That. [01:28:50]

Alex Buciu: Um, taking on patients where I knew I didn’t click [01:28:55] in with them. And I knew.

[TRANSITION]: Something was telling you not to do it.

Alex Buciu: So I now [01:29:00] I’m very filtering much better red flags. [01:29:05]

[TRANSITION]: But never mind.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move on to other questions. What [01:29:10] stands out to you as a lecture memorable lecture that you went to? Maybe the most [01:29:15] memorable lecture that you.

[TRANSITION]: Uh.

Alex Buciu: The I [01:29:20] mentioned already, uh, jazz and, uh, Sonny’s. [01:29:25]

[TRANSITION]: Did you ever go to lecture?

Payman Langroudi: For me, it’s one of one of the one of the ones that I remember. [01:29:30] I mean, brilliant lecture.

Alex Buciu: No, it’s on the to do list at some point, but I [01:29:35] want to go shadowing him. It’s for days ten, ten.

[TRANSITION]: Grand or something.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. [01:29:40]

[TRANSITION]: Uh.

Alex Buciu: But I did went to, uh, Dominic [01:29:45] Domenico Massironi, which is the. I think these two are the top guys [01:29:50] in porcelain veneers anyway.

[TRANSITION]: Is that good?

Alex Buciu: Yeah. Yeah, it [01:29:55] was just a one day. Yeah. Theory. And, uh, at lunchtime [01:30:00] again, I asked questions. He took me by the shoulders and, like, come with him. And he went [01:30:05] to the front when they were selling his books. Do you have this book? Yes. Do you have this book? No. Okay. You have to buy this [01:30:10] one. Uh, so Alex will buy this. Okay. They’re they’re like twice the price. They will buy [01:30:15] them normally, you know, it’s like, do you have this new set of birds like. No. Okay. He wants this as well.

[TRANSITION]: No way. [01:30:20]

Alex Buciu: So I paid for in that ten minute break more than I paid [01:30:25] for the course. You know.

[TRANSITION]: Like I couldn’t say no, you know.

Alex Buciu: But no. Lovely, lovely [01:30:30] guy. And. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What stands out as your favourite Dental book? Get [01:30:35] up girls, a good book.

[TRANSITION]: No [01:30:45] I can’t no.

Alex Buciu: No, honestly, it’s a blank, uh, about [01:30:50] about, uh.

[TRANSITION]: For me, the lecture.

Payman Langroudi: Did you ever come across Mike wise book that [01:30:55] it’s out of print now, but it’s management of failures and restorative dentistry.

[TRANSITION]: Very [01:31:00] brilliant. You have to WhatsApp.

Alex Buciu: Me.

[TRANSITION]: The.

Alex Buciu: Cover.

[TRANSITION]: Or something.

Payman Langroudi: He was he was the undisputed [01:31:05] number one dentist in the UK when I was just qualifying. Everyone like everyone had said [01:31:10] it. He’s a top guy and he’d written this giant book. Contestants on [01:31:15] failures and, you know, like post crown failures. Those just failures, man. Excellent. [01:31:20] Excellent book. But go on. You said.

Alex Buciu: About the lecture.

[TRANSITION]: The.

Alex Buciu: I [01:31:25] think the word Eureka again, a type of moment [01:31:30] I try to understand bonding long time and [01:31:35] try different systems and try different that. And again you have a better system. [01:31:40] It’s more forgiving to your mistakes. Okay. So it helps you with up to a point. [01:31:45] And the best one was in Romania. And it was a free [01:31:50] presentation by a guy that was very misunderstood. So again, [01:31:55] very niche and very he kept going to international [01:32:00] congresses and bring, uh, information from there. [01:32:05] Um, so it was I think that was a very [01:32:10] memorable, uh, when everything again fell into place, it’s like, oh, so [01:32:15] this is how you actually edge, this is how long you can. It’s like, yeah, [01:32:20] you keep the edge. 20s. It’s not 20s. Uh, it’s 20s for a young [01:32:25] child, let’s say enamel or for a old man’s [01:32:30] enamel, you know, like there’s no there is no. Forget about time. You have to look [01:32:35] and know what to look when you do this. That’s interesting how you bond. You bond this. And how long [01:32:40] do you scrub which. How? Yeah. So the [01:32:45] wet, how wet do you want the dentine to wet. Is there a two wet. Is there [01:32:50] two dry is there. So he put everything and I would have paid a fortune [01:32:55] if I knew the value of that lecture? Yes, but [01:33:00] he was like, for free.

Payman Langroudi: You get yourself into the biomimetic kind of dentistry as [01:33:05] well.

[TRANSITION]: I’ll [01:33:10] take that as a not really. I’m.

Alex Buciu: I’m [01:33:15] trying to think of myself as a good general dentist. [01:33:20] Nothing too crazy. Nothing.

[TRANSITION]: The reason I’m asking is.

Payman Langroudi: Those guys tend to be some of the happiest dentists [01:33:25] I come across, and who obsess about the amount of wetting of the the dentine, the way [01:33:30] you’re saying. Of course, biomimetics isn’t about that. It’s about everything else they obsess about. Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Even [01:33:35] again, I think there are some, uh, like, waves or currents [01:33:40] in dentistry.

[TRANSITION]: Fashions.

Alex Buciu: Fashions, yeah. Then they are for three, four, five years, [01:33:45] and then they die.

[TRANSITION]: Off a little bit.

Alex Buciu: So I try to look long term and see what works. Long [01:33:50] term.

[TRANSITION]: And.

Alex Buciu: Evidence based dentistry long term.

[TRANSITION]: Sure, sure.

Alex Buciu: Um, [01:33:55] Even with the, uh. Yeah, [01:34:00] the like the stains in the fissures. I’ve done this, and it’s for me. It’s not for [01:34:05] the patient.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, absolutely.

Alex Buciu: And, uh, some patients actually.

[TRANSITION]: Say, like, [01:34:10] well.

Alex Buciu: I paid lots of money, and I want the white tooth. He’s like, yeah, but it matches all [01:34:15] the others. Yeah, but this is white. I want to know that I paid. Uh, okay. Give me the [01:34:20] the rubbers. You know, like, but even [01:34:25] the design, the there are some occlusal, uh, shapes [01:34:30] that you need to do. I wouldn’t go crazy with tertiary [01:34:35] anatomy or stuff like this.

Payman Langroudi: Even in anterior I wouldn’t, man.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:34:40]

Payman Langroudi: Even in anterior.

[TRANSITION]: And go.

Alex Buciu: To, like.

[TRANSITION]: Even.

Payman Langroudi: Secondary anatomy most patients don’t [01:34:45] like. You know.

[TRANSITION]: Just a little.

Alex Buciu: Bit depends on the age. Depends on.

[TRANSITION]: The.

Alex Buciu: Yeah you have to gauge [01:34:50] it. But I would maybe do a secondary anatomy. Just a.

[TRANSITION]: Hint.

Payman Langroudi: Again for you. [01:34:55]

[TRANSITION]: Maybe.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, there’s some dentists who tell me I [01:35:00] firstly educate my patient on secondary anatomy, and then then we put it [01:35:05] into the veneer, for instance. Yeah. And okay, I get it. But if [01:35:10] I could push a button and dentists could learn primary anatomy. Yeah, I’d [01:35:15] be over the moon.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, because that’s the one.

[TRANSITION]: That’s the key.

Alex Buciu: First thing. Yeah, the first thing.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes [01:35:20] people obsessing over secondary and primary wrong.

[TRANSITION]: Or.

Alex Buciu: Shade.

[TRANSITION]: Over.

Payman Langroudi: Shade. Yeah. Yeah, [01:35:25] yeah.

[TRANSITION]: So if you.

Alex Buciu: Get the.

[TRANSITION]: Right.

Alex Buciu: Shape, you get away with.

[TRANSITION]: A.

Payman Langroudi: Lot. [01:35:30] You get away.

[TRANSITION]: With it instead of a three. Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, absolutely. It’s been a massive pleasure having you, man. [01:35:35] I’m gonna move on to the final questions.

[TRANSITION]: Lovely.

Payman Langroudi: The final questions. It’s about dinner party. [01:35:40]

Alex Buciu: Dinner party.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests, dead or alive. Who would you have? [01:35:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yes. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Your mum.

[TRANSITION]: First. [01:35:50] You got it. What are you gonna say For.

Alex Buciu: First time, I get asked this question. I saw that you [01:35:55] ask your, uh, guests. So. Yeah, with my mother. Yes. Uh, even though it’s 30 [01:36:00] something years, uh, odd years since she passed away. Uh, [01:36:05] yeah, I still think about her and, uh, keep wondering how life would [01:36:10] have been if she’d be around, but definitely. And I [01:36:15] would want her to see me how I am now and to see my, uh, [01:36:20] evolution over the years.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: But, uh, yeah, [01:36:25] probably, definitely, definitely. This would be my first choice, the second dinner. So [01:36:30] I go into the past. I want to go into the future. I would take my kids for dinner and see. Have [01:36:35] I been a good father to you?

[TRANSITION]: Your future.

Payman Langroudi: Kids?

[TRANSITION]: My kids? Your current in the future? [01:36:40] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: My future kids. Your future kids.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s a.

[TRANSITION]: Future.

Alex Buciu: Version.

[TRANSITION]: Of my kids.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. [01:36:45]

Payman Langroudi: That’s interesting.

Alex Buciu: Just to.

[TRANSITION]: See.

Alex Buciu: Have I done right by you have my teachings. [01:36:50] Uh, uh, helped you in your life [01:36:55] or have they traumatised you? You know, like, my experience is because I had a pretty [01:37:00] difficult life.

[TRANSITION]: Are you the.

Payman Langroudi: Good cop or the bad cop at [01:37:05] home?

Alex Buciu: I’m the realistic cop.

[TRANSITION]: Bad cop? [01:37:10] Yeah. Are you the.

Payman Langroudi: Are you the enforcer? [01:37:15]

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And your wife’s the kind of less.

Alex Buciu: She’s tried to be as well, but she. [01:37:20]

Payman Langroudi: She doesn’t.

[TRANSITION]: Know how much.

Alex Buciu: I love them.

[TRANSITION]: Too. Don’t get me wrong, but. Father [01:37:25] figure. Father figure.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not. I’m not.

[TRANSITION]: Father figure.

Payman Langroudi: My wife’s the enforcer in our [01:37:30] house. Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.

Alex Buciu: No, they need to know the limits. Because otherwise.

[TRANSITION]: My.

Payman Langroudi: Wife sets [01:37:35] those limits.

[TRANSITION]: Lucky man, lucky man.

Alex Buciu: Uh, [01:37:40] for the third dinner again, it’s very, very difficult to to [01:37:45] choose. I’m gonna have, a, uh, options [01:37:50] either I again, I reflect on my own life, and either I go [01:37:55] for Aristotle and go for trying to find the right balance in [01:38:00] life and median life, and not stress as much because I am, uh, [01:38:05] stressing sometimes too much for things that I cannot [01:38:10] control and I cannot accept things that, uh, I should I cannot change, [01:38:15] uh, or the Stoics, you know, the Marcus [01:38:20] Aurelius or Socrates or Epictetus or, uh, just [01:38:25] to be, uh, more resilient to the hardships of [01:38:30] life and take it to the chin and move on, you know, or, [01:38:35] uh, uh, Mike Tyson.

Payman Langroudi: Mike [01:38:40] Tyson.

[TRANSITION]: Mike Tyson.

Payman Langroudi: What a combination of people we’ve had there. [01:38:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yes. Your mum, your children.

Payman Langroudi: That makes sense. Marcus [01:38:50] Aurelius and Mike Tyson.

[TRANSITION]: Do you see?

Payman Langroudi: I saw Mike Tyson on Joe Rogan. Was [01:38:55] very interesting. 3.5 hour conversation.

[TRANSITION]: Really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, very. You should look it up.

[TRANSITION]: You should look it up.

Alex Buciu: Do [01:39:00] you see why the third dinner? Is there any common? [01:39:05]

Payman Langroudi: No.

[TRANSITION]: It’s the.

Alex Buciu: Discipline.

Payman Langroudi: Discipline? [01:39:10]

Alex Buciu: Discipline and honour. Honour. Again, Mike Tyson, the evolution from [01:39:15] chaos to control. From animal to philosopher. [01:39:20]

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Alex Buciu: Um.

[TRANSITION]: It’s interesting. I.

Alex Buciu: I didn’t [01:39:25] do boxing. I done other martial arts, and I trained with [01:39:30] some later in life, uh, some very dangerous people that I’m [01:39:35] gonna tell you offline. Uh, but, uh, Mike [01:39:40] Tyson, if you saw his.

[TRANSITION]: Face. [01:39:45]

Alex Buciu: After he got released from that longer term prison. [01:39:50] He was not a human. He was something else. Yeah. Don’t. [01:39:55] Don’t remember. He was a fighting a white guy. Peter. Something. And [01:40:00] his eyes were crazy man’s eyes. So the guys I was training in, [01:40:05] uh, fighting, they taught me about the crazy eyes. And they say, you [01:40:10] look on the street and you’ll find if you know what to look for, you’re gonna see crazy eyes. And he had crazy [01:40:15] eyes.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Alex Buciu: Um, so yeah, he, he [01:40:20] had discipline and I don’t know, I really need to watch that, uh, interview. You said [01:40:25] um, he said Mike Tyson when he is at his peak, he say [01:40:30] he cried before he said this in the interview. He would cry in [01:40:35] the locker before going into the fight.

[TRANSITION]: He said.

Alex Buciu: Once I go into the ring, I [01:40:40] cannot control myself and I know I’m gonna make them suffer. I might kill them and their family [01:40:45] is gonna suffer as well.

Payman Langroudi: Whoa.

Alex Buciu: So he was beyond. [01:40:50] Yeah, but he controlled it later. Towards [01:40:55] retirement.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Alex Buciu: So this is what a good man he became. [01:41:00] He was a bad man.

[TRANSITION]: I like to start with.

Payman Langroudi: I liked.

[TRANSITION]: Him, but.

Alex Buciu: At the end. This [01:41:05] is how you are. Good. When you have the monster inside of you, you’re capable of violence. [01:41:10] Yeah, but you refrain it.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: This is how you are a. True [01:41:15] man. When you can control it. Otherwise, if you’re weak, you cannot be good. [01:41:20] There’s no virtue in that. I saw a very nice podcast [01:41:25] about this, uh, this topic. Very nice. If you’re weak, there’s no choice. You [01:41:30] have to be good. There’s no kindness in that. You’re just weak. But if you’re [01:41:35] capable of violence, capable of, uh.

Payman Langroudi: And you choose kindness.

[TRANSITION]: Yes. And you.

Alex Buciu: Choose. [01:41:40]

[TRANSITION]: This is when you have.

Alex Buciu: You’re a good man.

Payman Langroudi: You’re interesting.

Alex Buciu: Yeah, I definitely [01:41:45] we can talk for many more hours.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:41:50] about the final question? Is a deathbed question?

[TRANSITION]: Deathbed?

Payman Langroudi: Three pieces of advice [01:41:55] for your loved ones, for the world.

Alex Buciu: Be kind. [01:42:00] Yeah. I wanted to say more things about [01:42:05] my thoughts about religion and racism and stuff. But next time.

[TRANSITION]: Next [01:42:10] time.

Alex Buciu: No no no no no.

[TRANSITION]: Go on.

Alex Buciu: So, uh.

[TRANSITION]: Do you believe.

Payman Langroudi: Do you believe in God?

Alex Buciu: I [01:42:15] believe we’re part of something greater. I [01:42:20] don’t want to put a name to it or something. And even [01:42:25] if I would believe in God, why would my God be the real God when there are 5000 others? [01:42:30] And, you know. So I’m. I’m right, and 4999 are wrong. Yeah. [01:42:35] Um, but there’s definitely more to it. The complexity [01:42:40] of the DNA structure, even the, uh. Way [01:42:45] the amino acids, uh, mix [01:42:50] in a single cell bacteria, it’s [01:42:55] extremely, extremely, uh, how to [01:43:00] say difficult to get through evolution. So [01:43:05] the the chances of this happening is extremely slim.

[TRANSITION]: Why, though.

Alex Buciu: There, [01:43:10] there is like hundreds of millions of combinations and [01:43:15] only one would work. You know, and.

[TRANSITION]: Then.

Payman Langroudi: Infinite solar [01:43:20] system. So.

[TRANSITION]: Yes. [01:43:25] And I.

Alex Buciu: I think there’s something.

[TRANSITION]: Bigger than I think there’s something I [01:43:30] don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: There’s something bigger than us because we don’t understand.

[TRANSITION]: It. Other people have tried for.

Alex Buciu: Millennia.

[TRANSITION]: To.

Payman Langroudi: Understand [01:43:35] everything.

[TRANSITION]: You’re completely right.

Payman Langroudi: You’re completely right. And, you know, depending [01:43:40] on on the kind of adventures you go on, you realise quickly things, things [01:43:45] are not exactly as they seem in the moment. Yeah. Is there a dimension of it [01:43:50] that is good and bad and moral and immoral? That’s [01:43:55] the question I’m asking. I mean, when I say God, I’m not saying, do we [01:44:00] know everything about everything because we don’t.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But is there something, something moral or [01:44:05] ethical, or do good things happen to good people and this sort of effort? [01:44:10]

Alex Buciu: I would love to think so.

[TRANSITION]: Unfortunately, I.

Alex Buciu: I’m [01:44:15] a strong believer in long term karma, but sometimes [01:44:20] Payman I wish it’s instant karma for some people.

[TRANSITION]: Like you should be struck by [01:44:25] lightning now, you know.

Alex Buciu: But the difference [01:44:30] between a believer in God, whichever religion and a The non-believer. [01:44:35] Is that or a scientist that the scientists are happy when they’re wrong?

[TRANSITION]: That’s [01:44:40] true.

Alex Buciu: So this is how science evolves? Yes. Like, well, I’m happy. [01:44:45] Yeah, we were wrong for 50 years. Yes, but I’m the one who discovered that we’re wrong, so they’re [01:44:50] happy. Um. It’s inside of you. What [01:44:55] was instilled in you? The environment, the family, the family believes. [01:45:00] Uh, we all have a internal moral [01:45:05] compass. And you know what is good and what is bad?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:45:10]

Alex Buciu: You you see something going on or see, it’s like, that’s not right.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: What [01:45:15] happens next is you choose to ignore it. You look the other way [01:45:20] or you do something. This is what makes it good or bad. But, uh. [01:45:25]

[TRANSITION]: I’m quite interested.

Payman Langroudi: In the question of should there be God?

[TRANSITION]: Should [01:45:30] there be God just to make one.

Payman Langroudi: Know as an.

[TRANSITION]: Entity.

Alex Buciu: Responsible. [01:45:35]

[TRANSITION]: For everything.

Payman Langroudi: As should there be third party oversight on [01:45:40] your life, or shouldn’t there be?

[TRANSITION]: Because do you want to [01:45:45] go on the Nietzsche’s? It’s much.

Payman Langroudi: More interesting. I wasted the first 45 years of my [01:45:50] life saying, is there God or isn’t there God? Now, now I’ve kind of changed my idea. Changed that. [01:45:55] Should there be or shouldn’t there be? I mean, if if we knew that everything we did was literally being watched [01:46:00] by AI or whatever call it God, would [01:46:05] that make the world a better place or not?

Alex Buciu: I’m going to answer with another question [01:46:10] is great philosophers struggled for so.

[TRANSITION]: Many.

Alex Buciu: Years [01:46:15] to to find the answer for this, but another [01:46:20] was the, uh, the drama. I’m trying to, uh, translate [01:46:25] it, I know it, I read, I read in Romanian. So the the tragedy of [01:46:30] the human being is the option to choose. Okay, so if [01:46:35] there would be a god and give you guidelines and give you, yeah, you are born, you will have to do this at this [01:46:40] age. You’re going to do this at this age, you’re going to do that. And here you’re going to end of the line, I [01:46:45] think would be very happy. And uh, yeah. That’s it. We [01:46:50] know what’s going on. We know how long the string is.

[TRANSITION]: And yeah.

Alex Buciu: I [01:46:55] think it would be happier. The unknown, however, gives you advantages [01:47:00] and disadvantages. So you can be more happier than you would be with a predestined [01:47:05] life. But when it goes bad.

[TRANSITION]: It goes terribly bad.

Payman Langroudi: Highs and lower.

[TRANSITION]: Lows. Yeah. That’s [01:47:10] it, that’s it, that’s it.

Alex Buciu: But definitely we’re part of something bigger. [01:47:15] I don’t know what it is. We’re probably too small [01:47:20] to see this. But first thing I felt, I’m part of something bigger [01:47:25] when I was out in the sea. And I still, if I go in a big pool, I’m not talking.

[TRANSITION]: A. [01:47:30]

Alex Buciu: Jacuzzi. Yeah, uh, a big pool or in the open sea [01:47:35] and restart everything. It moves and you start like I’m just a.

[TRANSITION]: Part [01:47:40] of. Yeah.

Alex Buciu: In the in the whole space there. And, [01:47:45] uh, life is more than what we probably can [01:47:50] comprehend.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And we confuse ourselves, right, with, uh, lighting [01:47:55] at night, and you know that, you know how people say, oh, they want to go and do yoga [01:48:00] and meditate. And a lot of that is to get back to, you know, out of the, [01:48:05] the, the sort of artificial ness of our life.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Just to reconnect. [01:48:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like when you say lying in the sea, you’re just doing what you were supposed to be doing. Right. [01:48:15]

[TRANSITION]: I discovered this when I was very young.

Payman Langroudi: The same as holding a phone in front of your face.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:48:20] a.

[TRANSITION]: Different. It’s it’s.

Alex Buciu: Um. Again, I discovered this when I was young, [01:48:25] and this is when I first realised, like, there’s more to it, you know, like there was like ten or [01:48:30] something. Like it wasn’t. The sea is like the world is big. And but there’s something [01:48:35] even bigger than that is it cannot be. Or maybe it’s our wishful thinking that we want. [01:48:40]

[TRANSITION]: To go back.

Payman Langroudi: To. The three pieces of advice.

[TRANSITION]: Is.

Payman Langroudi: Be kind, be kind. What was the second one?

[TRANSITION]: Um. [01:48:45]

Alex Buciu: Fight constantly [01:48:50] and keep moving. Okay, so do not put the head down if you [01:48:55] know it’s right. And if you know it’s, uh, fair, it’s worth fighting. And, [01:49:00] uh, held your head up high and, uh. [01:49:05] Yeah. Trying [01:49:10] to see everything revolves about kindness.

[TRANSITION]: What?

Payman Langroudi: About what? About something [01:49:15] that, you know, you wish you were more, like.

Alex Buciu: More [01:49:20] relaxed? I wish I was more relaxed, I wish, I wish, I wish I would be [01:49:25] able to, uh, switch.

[TRANSITION]: Off.

Alex Buciu: There are many, many [01:49:30] colleagues. 5:00 literally different person.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: So, [01:49:35] yeah, but you had the complaints like, I don’t care. Like, how can you, like, have [01:49:40] a, uh, friend that he got sued [01:49:45] and, like, pretty bad and like, ah, I asked him recently, [01:49:50] what have you done with, uh, what happened with this case? Like, I don’t know, the the solicitor [01:49:55] sent me some, uh, the from the indemnity. They sent me an email. I haven’t even opened them.

Payman Langroudi: Water [01:50:00] off a duck’s back.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: So is that that kind [01:50:05] of. So it’s me on one.

[TRANSITION]: End of the.

Alex Buciu: Spectrum, and he’s just like, ah, he. They sent me. [01:50:10] I didn’t even open the emails to see.

[TRANSITION]: He’s like.

Alex Buciu: Yeah, I would have died ten [01:50:15] times.

[TRANSITION]: You know, like.

Alex Buciu: I wish I would, uh, switch off. So yeah, [01:50:20] probably the third advice would be to, take care again, [01:50:25] talking to my children to take care of themselves.

[TRANSITION]: Each other, each.

Alex Buciu: Other, take.

[TRANSITION]: Care of each other. Yes. [01:50:30]

Payman Langroudi: Good advice.

Alex Buciu: Um.

[TRANSITION]: Good advice. Yeah. [01:50:35]

Alex Buciu: Choose their friends wisely. Um, you [01:50:40] know, when they go out, don’t add to the population, don’t subtract to [01:50:45] the population, don’t end up in the news. Don’t end up in jail. So [01:50:50] normal advice.

Payman Langroudi: How would you like to be remembered?

Alex Buciu: Alex [01:50:55] was family man fighting [01:51:00] for their family. Going through the hardships [01:51:05] of life and still marching on. Resilient. That [01:51:10] that was a what I would like. But again, I’m not, uh, vain [01:51:15] to.

[TRANSITION]: Know.

Alex Buciu: Know that, uh, somebody’s gonna remember me 50 [01:51:20] years if the kids remember.

[TRANSITION]: That’s enough.

Payman Langroudi: It’s. It’s an interesting [01:51:25] thing. They say hardly anyone knows the name of their grandmother’s grandmother. Yeah, [01:51:30] yeah. Which is only your grandmother’s grandmother. Like loads of people know, their grandmother might have had a conversation, [01:51:35] but hardly anyone knows the name of their grandmother.

[TRANSITION]: I had a secret.

Alex Buciu: You [01:51:40] know the secret question. They ask the bank or what was it?

[TRANSITION]: Information? Yeah.

Alex Buciu: And [01:51:45] it was, uh, my wife’s, uh, was like, uh, uh, [01:51:50] surname.

[TRANSITION]: Before.

Alex Buciu: Maiden. Maiden name?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. It’s like I. [01:51:55]

Alex Buciu: Said it so many years ago.

[TRANSITION]: It’s, like.

Payman Langroudi: Forgotten.

[TRANSITION]: No ideas. [01:52:00]

Alex Buciu: I cannot log into my bank account now because I don’t know your mother’s, so I wouldn’t know there. [01:52:05] It’s, uh. Yeah, if you remember. [01:52:10] That needs to be remembered for good things. Not, uh, you.

[TRANSITION]: Know, definitely.

Alex Buciu: You remember Hitler. You [01:52:15] remember Mussolini, you remember Attila the Hun. You remember, but not necessarily for good [01:52:20] things.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Usually the ones that are remembered are for for bad things.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:52:25] been a massive pleasure, man.

[TRANSITION]: Oh. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming all.

Payman Langroudi: The way down to the office. Finally. [01:52:30]

Alex Buciu: Always a.

[TRANSITION]: Pleasure. Good to see you again, buddy.

Alex Buciu: Thank you. Thank you so much.

[VOICE]: This [01:52:35] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you [01:52:40] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:52:45] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [01:52:50]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to [01:52:55] the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and [01:53:00] listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value [01:53:05] out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And [01:53:10] if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so so [01:53:15] so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] enlightened online training to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time. Whitening underwhelms. Try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental. Leaders. The podcast where you [00:00:30] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:40] Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Sana Harazi onto [00:00:45] the podcast. Sana has taken a long route to get to the UK via Morocco [00:00:50] and France, and now working in two practices in West London. [00:00:55] Correct? Um, lovely to have you.

Sanaa Harroussi: Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: Lovely to have you. Um, we met [00:01:00] on Mini Smile makeover, and. I don’t know, man. I, you know, we meet a lot of delegates, right? [00:01:05] And with you, I felt a fire inside your belly. Thank you. A [00:01:10] real fire that you wanted to learn. I really wanted to learn. And now talking [00:01:15] to you. You’ve done all the post-grad stuff as well. Um, so now I understand why. [00:01:20] But lovely to have you.

Sanaa Harroussi: Thank you very much.

Payman Langroudi: So you grew up in Morocco. Where? [00:01:25]

Sanaa Harroussi: Rabat.

Payman Langroudi: The capital. Really beautiful.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Um, how [00:01:30] old were you when you went to France?

Sanaa Harroussi: So when I moved to. Lived there for a couple of years. [00:01:35] That was three years after qualifying. Uh, how old was I? I was 23 back [00:01:40] then.

Payman Langroudi: So you went straight from qualifying as a dentist to France?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, I did, like, six months, [00:01:45] uh, voluntary work at the hospital as soon as I qualified. Um, and then the while [00:01:50] preparing exams to reach the postgraduates in Paris.

Payman Langroudi: And I expect it’s very competitive [00:01:55] to even get into dental school in Morocco.

Sanaa Harroussi: It was.

Payman Langroudi: Probably top 1% [00:02:00] of your class or whatever, right?

Sanaa Harroussi: But yes, you had to have very good grades to get [00:02:05] in the first place.

Payman Langroudi: Dental school like in Morocco. I mean, I suppose the only one you’ve been to, right? [00:02:10] So you don’t really know. But but.

Sanaa Harroussi: I know.

Payman Langroudi: Now that you’ve talked to people. [00:02:15]

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Compared to, for instance, being in Dental school here. What’s the main difference?

Sanaa Harroussi: Much [00:02:20] more challenging. They really push you to the limit. But what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. I think it did [00:02:25] help in a way. It was really, really tough. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But they kind of push you hard [00:02:30] here as well. You mean even more? Even.

Sanaa Harroussi: Even more. If we would be having the clinics [00:02:35] in the morning, we’d be taking the exams in the afternoon. You don’t even have a break in between. Mhm. Yeah. [00:02:40] And there is no mcqs. They just put like a title and you have to write [00:02:45] about whatever subject. You have to know what you’re talking about.

Payman Langroudi: Why didn’t history. How did it, [00:02:50] how did dentistry come on the scene.

Sanaa Harroussi: So how it worked as a teenager. Funny thing, as a teenager I used to [00:02:55] go often to the Into the dentist myself. Uh, and then one day, it [00:03:00] was the brother of one of my good high school friends was a dentist. So I went to a visit [00:03:05] and we started talking. What are you planning to do when you. After the baccalaureate? And I go after, [00:03:10] which is the equivalent of an A-level in Morocco. And, uh, and I go I’m not quite [00:03:15] sure. I’m just like weighing up my options. And he, he did ask, why don’t you go for dentistry? I was kind of like, I [00:03:20] don’t know, I’m not sure. Um, and, um, I kind of liked [00:03:25] the field. Um, and that’s how I took the decision to [00:03:30] try to apply for dentistry, and it worked quite well.

Payman Langroudi: Did you stay in Rabat for dental [00:03:35] school as well?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes, I was lucky because there is only two universities, uh, for dentistry in Morocco. Back then, [00:03:40] at the time when I became a dentist, there was only two universities, one in Rabat [00:03:45] and one in Casablanca. So I was lucky I could stay home. I didn’t even need to go to a different city. [00:03:50]

Payman Langroudi: And what were you like as a dental student? Were you very serious?

Sanaa Harroussi: Too serious.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. [00:03:55] I would always be sitting at the front.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. Uh, very, [00:04:00] very keen. And, uh. Yeah, the day when I graduated, I remember, [00:04:05] um, uh, one of the members of the jury, uh, and he goes, like, I really remember from [00:04:10] day one, she would always be sitting at the front. She would be focussed, wouldn’t even miss any lecture. Very [00:04:15] keen. Yes, I enjoyed it, I loved it.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think do you think like the being [00:04:20] a super serious student, then a super serious uni student? And [00:04:25] then you went post-grad in France and like constantly [00:04:30] being super serious has had like a an effect insomuch as now you [00:04:35] want to enjoy it a little bit.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. It’s important to find the balance. True. [00:04:40] So I try to find a balance. So with my kids, I’m not trying to push them too much because I want them to [00:04:45] have a good balance between enjoying theirselves. I was enjoying myself.

Payman Langroudi: But did your parents push quite [00:04:50] hard?

Sanaa Harroussi: Not at all. It was the opposite. I remember one day, I was preparing for an [00:04:55] exam and literally my mom was kind of enough. You need to rest. And she literally was pulling the book out of my hand. Please [00:05:00] give yourself a break up. It was the exact opposite with my elder brother. You had to. [00:05:05] They had to push him.

Payman Langroudi: Because he was like the firstborn son. Whatever.

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh, I mean, he’s four of us. He’s [00:05:10] the only boy I’ve got two older sisters and an older brother. Uh, and I remember with [00:05:15] him, they had kind of like, you need to study, but they never needed to do that with us. Especially with me. It was the opposite.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:05:20] are the other three doing now?

Sanaa Harroussi: So, uh, my two sisters live in Paris. Oh, yeah. Um, [00:05:25] my brother is still in Morocco. He’s based in Casablanca now.

Payman Langroudi: Any of them dentists?

Sanaa Harroussi: No. Uh, [00:05:30] my elder sister is an architect. Uh, my brother work. [00:05:35] I mean, he was qualified in, uh, he went to business school, and, uh, he [00:05:40] works in insurance now. Um, and then, uh, my third, my, um, [00:05:45] older sister, um, the one who stayed in, uh, in Paris [00:05:50] now, um, she works as a innovation [00:05:55] director in the insurance field.

Payman Langroudi: What was the reason for moving to Paris?

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, [00:06:00] catching up with my sisters was one point as well.

Payman Langroudi: Because both of.

Sanaa Harroussi: Them, [00:06:05] they were. Yeah, they they moved to Paris when I was at high school. Um, so, [00:06:10] yeah, it was nice to kind of, um, why [00:06:15] I picked Paris as a city, particularly. There was other cities where I could have done my postgraduate in France. Um, [00:06:20] but I love Paris. Beautiful city as well. It’s lovely.

Payman Langroudi: To specialise.

Sanaa Harroussi: To [00:06:25] specialise.

Payman Langroudi: That was the point.

Sanaa Harroussi: Exactly. I was keen on, like going the [00:06:30] extra mile.

Payman Langroudi: Doing more.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So. So you went into a pros program? Yes. [00:06:35] Like a full time?

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh, it was only. So the postgraduate [00:06:40] was like two days a week. So I ended up doing many certificates and many diplomas at the same time, because [00:06:45] I had to fill my time completely. I was literally like four days a week. So, [00:06:50] yeah, I ended up doing lots of post-graduates within the two years. But [00:06:55] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Two years you were there?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes. For two years. Full time? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Why didn’t you stay [00:07:00] in France?

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, I got married and my husband.

Payman Langroudi: Was living here.

Sanaa Harroussi: Was [00:07:05] living here. And to be honest, I came to visit, and I just loved London.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Sanaa Harroussi: And, yeah, [00:07:10] it wasn’t hard to take the decision to move to London. Uh, how.

Payman Langroudi: Do you feel? How do you feel about Paris? [00:07:15] I’ve got a real love hate relationship with Paris, you know, because we were just talking. My kids are in French school [00:07:20] as well as yours. Yeah. And, um, I feel like race relations there aren’t. Aren’t great. [00:07:25] There’s always a tension in the air.

Sanaa Harroussi: I feel much less racism in London compared to Paris. [00:07:30] Not everywhere in Paris. But you can feel the difference here. You really feel like [00:07:35] there’s much better integration, I would say.

Payman Langroudi: It’s funny because you wouldn’t think that from [00:07:40] the outside, Paris, London sounds like similar kind of cities, but, um, I [00:07:45] don’t know. It’s a beautiful city, right? There’s no there’s no doubt about that. But I can feel the tension [00:07:50] there. You know, compared to here. Do you feel the same, similar thing?

Sanaa Harroussi: I feel more comfortable here [00:07:55] before.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes. So don’t get me wrong, I love Paris. Yeah. And I would have loved [00:08:00] living there, but I prefer here by far.

Payman Langroudi: You know. Particularly we moved here in the late [00:08:05] 70s. Yeah, in the late 70s. Like, I actually remember we used to go to [00:08:10] Paris and going to a cafe and having a coffee was a big deal because [00:08:15] there wasn’t coffee in London. You know, there was coffee, but it wasn’t like good coffee. It [00:08:20] was just terrible coffee. Yeah. Um, and I remember we used to go and sit in a cafe [00:08:25] and have a coffee and watch the people go by, whatever. That was almost like a first thing we would do when we’d get to Paris. [00:08:30] But now London has everything, you know, like London has everything [00:08:35] you could want. And so, I dunno, Paris just didn’t change at all. And [00:08:40] over here you think it’s quite a conservative place and it doesn’t change very much. But France [00:08:45] is even more conservative. Right. I’m embarrassed. Recently I realised it hasn’t [00:08:50] changed for 30, 40 years. You know, like similar feeling in the town. Of course, [00:08:55] they do have the odd sort of, um, very avant garde stuff as well. There’s no doubt about that. So [00:09:00] London, what was your first impression? Had you been before?

Sanaa Harroussi: No.

Payman Langroudi: What was your first [00:09:05] time when you moved?

Sanaa Harroussi: First time? Yeah, when I came to visit and and my my fiance [00:09:10] back then, he made sure I really enjoyed the visit. He showed [00:09:15] me the best side of London, obviously. Um, but the equivalent in France [00:09:20] was ten times easier than passing the equivalent in England.

Payman Langroudi: The aura.

Sanaa Harroussi: The aura was [00:09:25] really, really challenging.

Payman Langroudi: And did you have to do exams in France?

Sanaa Harroussi: Um.

Payman Langroudi: I know you were [00:09:30] studying.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. To do the postgraduate as well. I had to take exams again. They were very, very selective. So [00:09:35] for every diploma, it was about 12 people. Ten, 12 people. That was it. Um, so [00:09:40] it was quite competitive as well. Um, so that’s why, uh, I [00:09:45] had a funny story where I had to pick between two diplomas. Kind of like, why didn’t you tell [00:09:50] me that if I do prosthodontics, I wouldn’t be able to do the implants diploma? [00:09:55] At the same time they said, well, people usually pass one or the other. We never had that. You’re [00:10:00] not meant to pass both. We couldn’t have that. You’re going to pass both. But I had to pick between one and [00:10:05] the other. And, uh, and the following year I had to retake the exam, which wasn’t quite annoying. [00:10:10] So I, um, so, uh, I wasn’t very happy about it. And, [00:10:15] uh, and I remember going to talk to the secretary, kind of like. But that’s not fair. Like she goes, all I can do is get you [00:10:20] to talk to the head of department. So I was kind of. Okay, I’m happy to have a meeting with the head of department, because this isn’t fair. Um, [00:10:25] so I went, had a chat, and she was like, I’m really sorry you have to retake. But if you pass last year, you definitely [00:10:30] passed. This year. I’m sure you will pass. Don’t worry. Um, but yeah. So, uh, [00:10:35] but as a result, I couldn’t do the three year postgraduate and implants just on the first year. [00:10:40] Um, because the the postgraduate diploma for [00:10:45] implants was closed in that year, so if I would have picked implants over prosthodontics, [00:10:50] I would have had the full three year diploma, but never mind.

Payman Langroudi: So in French [00:10:55] terms, you are a specialist. Prosthodontist?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: But then, does that count here? No.

Sanaa Harroussi: I [00:11:00] didn’t even try to reach. When I checked at the beginning. They said you could reach. You could if you really want to be in [00:11:05] the specialist register. But I never tried to. To be honest.

Payman Langroudi: You had to worry about first.

Sanaa Harroussi: Exactly. [00:11:10]

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about that. Because I’ve had people sitting where you’re sitting, and [00:11:15] the stories tend to be some of the hardest stories I’ve heard.

Sanaa Harroussi: I had the funniest story about. Yeah. [00:11:20] So I remember coming from Paris to London. Yeah. And I got on [00:11:25] the Eurostar and there was a lovely, heavily pregnant lady and [00:11:30] give her a smile, let her in first. And she gave me a smile. She sat there. And [00:11:35] that day, for whatever reason, I had a book about dentistry on me in my handbag. So I put it [00:11:40] out and I started having a look at it and she passed by. She was going to the toilet, she could see the book and she goes, are you [00:11:45] a dentist? I said, yes, she goes, I’m a dentist too. Are you trying to take over? It’s kind of like, yeah. Back [00:11:50] then I was learning English and I had to pass the IELTS, which was quite tough too, to be honest. Um, [00:11:55] then she goes, okay, let me give you my number. She was based in France. [00:12:00] She goes, let me give you back. Then there was a landline. People were calling people. We were using landline. No, [00:12:05] she was Indian.

Payman Langroudi: Indian.

Sanaa Harroussi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, I want to say hello to Saida. She’s the one who. [00:12:10] Who I’m talking to. Um, so, uh, she gave [00:12:15] me her phone number, and, um, so I kept it [00:12:20] in that book, um, carried on with my life. I [00:12:25] had to, uh, take a proper course on how to pass the isles. Because even to pass the isles get good grades. [00:12:30] Um, it wasn’t that easy.

Payman Langroudi: That’s kind of English for foreign students sort of thing.

Sanaa Harroussi: But you have to get good [00:12:35] grades, like seven out of nine. And, uh, and it was quite challenging, especially the lesson part was [00:12:40] quite Yet challenging because they make you listen to different accents as well, [00:12:45] which is quite funny. To make it even more complicated. Um, but even that was [00:12:50] quite competitive as well to get a good grade on it. So, uh, passed my art and I’m thinking, [00:12:55] how do I start? Um, and then I get that book and I [00:13:00] open it, and the first thing I see in her name and her number. So I’m calling her, uh, [00:13:05] and she goes, what a coincidence. I’ll be in London a few days. Let’s meet up. So we set a [00:13:10] time and a place. We met up and she guided me. She explained to me exactly what I’m meant to do, [00:13:15] which because everything is on the GDC website, but there isn’t the details that [00:13:20] you really need. Um, so. And then she showed me one place called MRC. [00:13:25] Mrc I’m not even sure if it’s still exists nowadays. Uh, it’s for migrants [00:13:30] and refugees. Okay. And people used to, like, gather once a week and, uh, they would [00:13:35] guide you. And the best thing about it was meeting all the dentists who had to take O2. [00:13:40] Um, so I met some of my best friends over there. Um, [00:13:45] and. Yeah. So as a result, I had some connections. We had [00:13:50] some friends and we could help each other guide each other. She gave me as well, a list of books that I’m meant to read. [00:13:55] So that’s how my journey had started with.

Payman Langroudi: Well, for someone who doesn’t know, what does Ori [00:14:00] comprise of? Like how many exams? How many?

Sanaa Harroussi: So it’s two parts. The part one is mainly about theory. [00:14:05] You’ve got part A and B, and it’s mainly Mcqs but the answers are so close and [00:14:10] the passing rate is so low.

Payman Langroudi: But is it negative marking as well?

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, I’m not quite sure about [00:14:15] that.

Payman Langroudi: You know what I mean?

Sanaa Harroussi: But yes, if you give the wrong answer, you get.

Payman Langroudi: Minus.

Sanaa Harroussi: One. I’m not sure, [00:14:20] but it was. The passing rate was like 37% when I, when I passed. Wow. So it’s really, [00:14:25] really tough. Um, so the first part was just theory. Part [00:14:30] two was more you had to do, um, um, [00:14:35] it was funny. I had a monkey in my loft that I named Salim. I even [00:14:40] named him. And I used to spend three hours every single day training on my aura. Literally [00:14:45] three hours every day. And I had to build up my speed.

Payman Langroudi: Did you bring that from France?

Sanaa Harroussi: No, [00:14:50] I bought.

Payman Langroudi: It from eBay.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, well, I bought it from eBay. Well, I had [00:14:55] a light. I had the drill. I had everything compressed.

Payman Langroudi: Practice on this.

Sanaa Harroussi: Little room to practice. [00:15:00] Literally, I don’t I didn’t take anything lightly. I had to pass and I had to pass for the first time. Because [00:15:05] if you if you then fail, you’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Only got a certain number of.

Sanaa Harroussi: Four [00:15:10] chances in your whole life. But if you really fail, it’s going to really compromise your self-confidence, which [00:15:15] I would, you know, that would make it more nerve wracking. It was already tough enough. Yeah. So I [00:15:20] was kind of like, I’m gonna invest myself. Um, so that’s all I was doing [00:15:25] just every single day. Uh, especially between parts one and part two. Before parts one, [00:15:30] there was a bit of a waiting list, so it did give me plenty of time to pass my oils to prepare for part one. [00:15:35] I had like literally a year for that. But between part one and part two, it’s only a few months and you [00:15:40] have to be really prepared for the exam.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, and what do you have to do? Like a crown prep or something?

Sanaa Harroussi: So there was crown [00:15:45] prep, uh, cavities and all, uh, [00:15:50] like root canal, uh, access and prep. What else? Even the [00:15:55] way you fit the matrix band and the way you put the wedge, everything has to be perfect, basically. And, uh, and the main [00:16:00] thing is the timing. You have to finish all the tasks in a limited amount of time, and everything has [00:16:05] to be perfect. Passing rate for the second part was 25%, which means you have to be one of the best. It’s [00:16:10] not just doing a good prep, it’s one of the best preps, which makes it more challenging.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: Um. [00:16:15] What else?

Payman Langroudi: So did you pass it?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. First. First time? Both of them. Oh, really? [00:16:20] Yeah. It was like.

Payman Langroudi: First person I’ve heard has ever said that. Yeah. So. [00:16:25] So then you felt great.

Sanaa Harroussi: Felt amazing. It was like a dream coming true. I remember I was in [00:16:30] France. Uh, there was, uh, similar to clinical innovation here. It was, like, kind of similar [00:16:35] in France. And it was like lots of us. And they had just passed their exam. They had just found out [00:16:40] that they passed their exam. They were allowed to practice in Paris, and I passed my aura. We all kind [00:16:45] of passed at the same year. So they were kind of like, oh, that’s amazing. We should keep in touch. Unfortunately we didn’t. I [00:16:50] only kept in touch with my very close friends from from Rabat, and I’m still in touch with them till now. Um, [00:16:55] but most of my friends are dentists. Oh, that’s what I noticed. Most of them. [00:17:00] Um. So. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So now. So now you’re. You’re [00:17:05] married? No. Kids?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Is that right? No kids at this point?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes. [00:17:10]

Payman Langroudi: And now what? Find a job? Yes. Was that the idea?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. So I started with [00:17:15] the BJ. Yeah. Um, looking for jobs and stuff, and, uh, literally my [00:17:20] first job offer. So I remember the first interview I had, and they lived kind of like your. Your profile [00:17:25] is amazing. That’s it. I didn’t even have any other interview. You are the one. I’m so pleased [00:17:30] with you. That’s it. You’re hired. And kind of like I was happy, but at the same time, it’s going to be Swiss Sussex.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:17:35] Sussex.

Sanaa Harroussi: West.

Payman Langroudi: Sussex, West Sussex.

Sanaa Harroussi: So my husband was working in the city [00:17:40] back then, so for him it means he has to take a train and can take him two hours door to door and there [00:17:45] aren’t that many trains as well. But he was like so kind of supportive. He was like, don’t worry, be fine. And she was [00:17:50] amazing. It was an Iranian dentist, lovely lady. And she said, don’t worry about it. You could even [00:17:55] have the she had a flat above the practice because you can stay there until you get yourself [00:18:00] settled. Don’t you worry, just focus on work. It’s kind of like, okay, amazing. So I came home, we were celebrating, [00:18:05] but at the same time I had that weird feeling inside. It’s kind of like I’m not sure it’s the right decision. I’m not sure. Then [00:18:10] on Monday, she’s called me to say, I’m really sorry. I’ve just checked and it’s going to take forever to take you to get your performance [00:18:15] and it’s going to take. And I need someone who needs to start ASAP. So I’m really sorry. Um, I can’t [00:18:20] hire you. And deep inside, I was kind of like, it’s a bit of a relief because I didn’t really want to move that [00:18:25] far.

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, and then I’m having a chat with my [00:18:30] sister, and she goes, why don’t you just try to just [00:18:35] call the local practices in your neighbourhood? I was kind of like, I don’t think so. [00:18:40] I don’t think I don’t think that’s how it works. She goes, you have nothing to lose. Just try the [00:18:45] next day. I remember my uncle knocking at the door and he goes, [00:18:50] like, we’ve just received that list because I’ve told him what she has told me. And he goes, we just received that [00:18:55] list. It’s the list of all the NHS practices in the neighbourhood. It’s including dental practice. So it [00:19:00] was all the list with phone number and email and everything. So he goes, [00:19:05] why don’t you just try it? I mean, it’s a sign he came through the door by post. I [00:19:10] don’t know why they posted that leaflet anyway, but it had exactly what I needed. I didn’t even need to do any [00:19:15] much research. There was a name of the practice, the address and the phone number. So I started calling them and [00:19:20] I had quite like five practices that were hiring literally in my neighbourhood.

Payman Langroudi: Because no one wants to be an [00:19:25] NHS dentist these days. Right. How long ago was this?

Sanaa Harroussi: That was 15. Even even even, um. [00:19:30] Now it’s even worse.

Payman Langroudi: 15 years.

Sanaa Harroussi: Ago. 15 years ago? Yeah. Back then, it wasn’t [00:19:35] as bad. Now it’s. Nobody wants to work on it, to be honest. Um, so. Yeah. [00:19:40] Um.

Payman Langroudi: So five.

Sanaa Harroussi: Of them. But I had zero experience in the UK back then. So, um. [00:19:45]

Payman Langroudi: Were they corporates, any of them or.

Sanaa Harroussi: Were they all? I think most of them were family [00:19:50] practices. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: So you took one of those jobs.

Sanaa Harroussi: So exactly. And [00:19:55] then, um, so, uh, I’ve spoken to a few of them, and then one of them [00:20:00] had, uh, the receptionist called me back and she said, well, uh, [00:20:05] I’ve got your number. The principal wants to meet you, my current principal, and I go, [00:20:10] yes, sure. How long would it take you to be here? After ten minutes, she goes, are you sure? She goes, yeah, yeah, I live down the road. So [00:20:15] I quickly changed, uh, took my CV, went to see her. She had a look at the CV. She was very happy [00:20:20] with it. And she goes, uh, when can we start? And we just started the paperwork, [00:20:25] literally. And then a few months later, I was working for her.

Payman Langroudi: And what was your. I mean, and.

Sanaa Harroussi: That [00:20:30] was walking distance.

Payman Langroudi: As a French qualified prosthodontist. Yes. [00:20:35] What was your first impression of the NHS?

Sanaa Harroussi: I was kind of like, what is [00:20:40] that like disbelief? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And the rules and regulations? Like, [00:20:45] who explained all that to you?

Sanaa Harroussi: So before I started working though, I’ve done [00:20:50] some internship in another dental practice. So, uh.

Payman Langroudi: What, [00:20:55] nursing or something?

Sanaa Harroussi: No, no, no. In another dental practice. He was a friend of my [00:21:00] uncle. My uncle used to own a restaurant. And across the road there was a dentist. Um, his [00:21:05] name is Garth. Very, very supportive. Um, I’d like to say hello to him [00:21:10] if he’s listening. Um, and, uh, I managed to do my internship [00:21:15] at his practice, so for a good four months, I used to just go and watch, uh, so [00:21:20] it was a bit of fun.

Payman Langroudi: Um, was that an NHS?

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh, it was a mixed practice. Yes. Yes. [00:21:25]

Payman Langroudi: So you kind of got your head.

Sanaa Harroussi: I kind of knew how it works. Yeah. So when I joined my first job, [00:21:30] I knew how it works. Like, even stuff, like how to do referral letter and everything. How the NHS works. [00:21:35] Yes. So which made it a bit easier for me because I knew how the NHS works.

Payman Langroudi: The whole note [00:21:40] writing nightmare that every dentist has to go through. That must have been a [00:21:45] shock. Yeah. The detail you have to write. Exactly. Different to France, I bet. [00:21:50]

Sanaa Harroussi: Very different. Very different.

Payman Langroudi: And what about patients? [00:21:55] I mean, what’s a French patient? I had some French patients.

Sanaa Harroussi: Very difficult.

Payman Langroudi: I found French [00:22:00] patients very difficult.

Sanaa Harroussi: Very demanding.

Payman Langroudi: Hypochondriac, very demanding, very [00:22:05] demanding.

Sanaa Harroussi: It has to be excellent.

Payman Langroudi: So German patients I found amazing. Like, amazing. [00:22:10] They would just sit back. Doc, you know best. Whatever you say that. Yes, absolutely. Very compliant [00:22:15] French patients I found tough.

Sanaa Harroussi: You have to make sure everything is perfect. Like the expectation.

Payman Langroudi: Lots [00:22:20] of questions and very high expectations. Yes. So the British patient. Not so hard [00:22:25] compared to the French.

Sanaa Harroussi: Easier, I would.

Payman Langroudi: Say. Yeah, yeah I bet. Yeah. So [00:22:30] okay.

Sanaa Harroussi: I’m quite I’m quite hard on myself. So whatever work I try to do, I really try my [00:22:35] best to do the best I can. Definitely. And sometimes it’s even good. I want once more. I always [00:22:40] want more. I always want to improve myself. Yeah, but I’m not sure if it’s a good thing because I’m a bit too tough on myself. [00:22:45] Like always pushing myself to.

Payman Langroudi: Good and a bad thing, isn’t it? Like everything else, there’s good and bad [00:22:50] in it. But but, you know, being a good dentist, I mean it. It’s as much [00:22:55] to do with the way you talk to the patient or the way you listen [00:23:00] to the patient as it is to do with your matrix band. Right? You know, and it’s [00:23:05] important to bear that in mind. You know, that. I mean, I remember some of my bosses charming, [00:23:10] charming, charming guy. But, you know, the [00:23:15] matrix band wasn’t wasn’t great. Um, and the opposite [00:23:20] as well, you know, technically brilliant dentists who just couldn’t talk to patients [00:23:25] properly.

Sanaa Harroussi: A good balance.

Payman Langroudi: Between you need both. You need both, especially when people are scared. [00:23:30] Right. And that’s important to bear in mind. People are scared. More than half are [00:23:35] frightened when they’re in the room. And we forget that. You know, I only remembered [00:23:40] it now when I became a patient, you know, had a feeling it was a scary experience. You [00:23:45] know, even even when you know everything that’s going on.

Sanaa Harroussi: I think it’s worse when you know what’s happening. Maybe the least, [00:23:50] you know, the better off you are.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe. Maybe you’re right. So how long did you stay there?

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh, [00:23:55] were.

Payman Langroudi: You still there?

Sanaa Harroussi: This job? Well, for the last 15 years.

Payman Langroudi: You’re [00:24:00] still there in the same place. Oh, wow.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So do I. Take it you don’t like [00:24:05] change? Um.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:24:10] when did you have children in that journey?

Sanaa Harroussi: So, um. I [00:24:15] would say two years after I started working. Exactly two years afterwards, [00:24:20] I had my first son. Um, he’s 12 now. Time flies.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: So. [00:24:25] And then back then, my husband got a job in, um, around Asia. He had to be head in Asia, so [00:24:30] he was travelling a lot all over Asia. So had the best maternity leave ever. I got to travel [00:24:35] most of Asia. Just name it. And that baby, aged six months, had visited like nine different countries. [00:24:40] We were so well travelled.

Payman Langroudi: And you said he’s in it?

Sanaa Harroussi: No no, no. He’s 12 now. [00:24:45]

Payman Langroudi: No, no. What does your husband do?

Sanaa Harroussi: Oh, no. He works in marketing. He was a marketing director. Marketing? [00:24:50] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So you had a year travelling around Asia? Yes. And then. [00:24:55]

Sanaa Harroussi: Six months. I mean, I had six months maternity leave.

Payman Langroudi: And then back to London.

Sanaa Harroussi: And then back to London.

Payman Langroudi: And then [00:25:00] to part time after that.

Sanaa Harroussi: No. Carried on working Monday to Saturday. Believe it or not, I’m a workaholic. [00:25:05]

Payman Langroudi: So a nanny?

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh, yes. Uh, we had help, but [00:25:10] we had as well. Uh, my mother in law had retired that year, luckily for me. So, [00:25:15] uh, I had quite a bit of support with my mum and my mother in law. Um, and then full time nursery, [00:25:20] bless him.

Payman Langroudi: What are your feelings around, you know, like wanting [00:25:25] it all.

Sanaa Harroussi: Wanting it all. That’s me. That’s totally me. I want it all.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but do you agree? [00:25:30] It’s impossible.

Sanaa Harroussi: As much as you can of each.

Payman Langroudi: But no, no, I mean, look, [00:25:35] I want it all. Yeah. Yes. But I’m not a woman. Yeah. So I don’t have two children. [00:25:40] Yes. But one. It all could mean anything, right? You could say, hey, want it all? Could be [00:25:45] owning 100 practices. Yeah, yeah. You haven’t done that? Yeah. So [00:25:50] what is it? What are the limits of wanting it all? Okay, I want to career. I [00:25:55] want a husband. I want children and all that. What gives? Something [00:26:00] gives.

Sanaa Harroussi: Well, I tried to take time after. [00:26:05] Out of all of this, uh, my secret to cope with all of that, [00:26:10] I try to. Once a year, I go for retreat. Oh, really? For a long [00:26:15] weekend. And I have my me time with myself. With a friend. Yeah. [00:26:20]

Payman Langroudi: Like way.

Sanaa Harroussi: So, um, so the idea came from one of my best friends. [00:26:25] Um, uh, let me tell you more about my second. [00:26:30]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, second.

Sanaa Harroussi: Kid. My second kid.

Payman Langroudi: So how many years later was that?

Sanaa Harroussi: So four years later. [00:26:35] So I had like, three years to settle everything down. Had a second child, um, [00:26:40] decided to give the second child, give birth in Morocco. So it was kind of. We’ll get more family [00:26:45] support. Let me spend that six months back home. Yeah. Just I will get more support with for the [00:26:50] elder son. And I wanted him to go to I wanted him to learn French because my eldest son was only speaking English back then. [00:26:55] Um, and we thought if we take him to nursery back home in Morocco, he will get to [00:27:00] learn how to speak French fluently, because we wanted to put him in French school. So, uh, gave [00:27:05] birth. And I remember the petition telling me, oh, you’re so lucky you’ve got such a lovely [00:27:10] baby. Perfectly healthy. Um, and then I remember my sister when he was about [00:27:15] five weeks, they came to visit and they met him. The first thing they said, your baby is floppy. And it’s kind of like, no, [00:27:20] it was total denial. Couldn’t see it. He was only five weeks for me. He [00:27:25] looked normal. And she goes, no, no, you should get him checked. He looks floppy. [00:27:30] Um, and then the following week, um, my, [00:27:35] uh, elder son had tonsillitis, a bit of temperature, and I had to take him to penetration. [00:27:40] So, uh. And I took the baby with me, so my dad took [00:27:45] me. Got to the paediatrician. She’s checking the elder son. She goes, yeah, he needs some antibiotics. [00:27:50] And I say, would you mind just checking the baby? Because my sister keeps saying that she’s a bit floppy, [00:27:55] and I’m not quite sure.

Sanaa Harroussi: And, um. And she had a look, and I remember she took a little hammer and she was checking [00:28:00] on, like, hitting his knee just to see if there is anything wrong with him. Any [00:28:05] response? And she goes like, no, he is. No, your sister’s absolutely right. You need to get him [00:28:10] checked. And then there was a huge series of exams that same day. Now, [00:28:15] the good thing about, uh, medical treatment in Morocco is everything is happening fast. [00:28:20] So she called a cardiologist that she knew. She she sent him straight away. We checked [00:28:25] the heart. Everything is normal. Chest x ray. No problem with the breathing. Then they’ve done, [00:28:30] um, some, um, MRI. Everything normal. She goes, oh, we have to see. [00:28:35] You have to see your paediatrician. And, uh, so that was on a Monday. [00:28:40] On Wednesday, I was seen by the neuro paediatrician. She literally prioritised. She got a couple of phone calls [00:28:45] from from paediatrician and from another friend of ours who’s a doctor, and they were kind of like, please, they don’t have [00:28:50] much time. And if he could just speed everything up. So by Wednesday [00:28:55] we would know paediatrician and she goes, I think he has spinal [00:29:00] muscular atrophy condition that I’ve never heard about. So I thought, okay, um, so, [00:29:05] uh, after that, uh, we had to [00:29:10] get some tests done and the results came after a week [00:29:15] which did confirm that he has spinal muscular atrophy, which means life expectancy of six months. [00:29:20]

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Sanaa Harroussi: So, yeah, we brought him back to London and we went to the GP [00:29:25] and tried to get referral done. Luckily we had diagnosis. Everything was [00:29:30] done. Um, so. Yeah. Um, and then we started looking at [00:29:35] clinical trials and, um, he was referred to Great Ormond Street. Amazing [00:29:40] hospital.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: Provided amazing care. Um, but [00:29:45] they had the clinical trial was not up and running in London yet. However, it was in Paris. [00:29:50] Um, so one of my best friends came to visit me. She. She’s a dentist, [00:29:55] too. She used to be my next door neighbour back home. The funny thing. Literally next door neighbour. Um. [00:30:00] We studied dentistry together in Rabat, and she did her postgraduate in France too. So she came to visit [00:30:05] and she goes, oh, how does it work for the clinical trial? Well, the funny thing is it says the hospital [00:30:10] is called Salpetriere, which is the hospital where we were doing our postgraduates. She goes, okay, [00:30:15] let me speak to my, uh, to my boss. He might know him and he can get some info for [00:30:20] you. So that was over the weekend. So Monday she’s calling me and she goes like, oh, I [00:30:25] got some info. They’re taking patients. You can bring your son.

Payman Langroudi: For the trial. [00:30:30]

Sanaa Harroussi: For the clinical trial. So, uh, so it was amazing. So I emailed [00:30:35] him. I’m just waiting for the answer. And literally he emailed me back late in [00:30:40] that same evening, and, uh, I thought, I’m like, however, I want the clinical trial to start [00:30:45] in France, but I want to carry on. I want to carry on the treatment, uh, in London [00:30:50] once it’s up and running at Great Ormond Street. Um, so he spoke to the other [00:30:55] team and they, they found an agreement. So it was a miracle. It was [00:31:00] dream coming true. And I managed to put him into clinical trial. And then after that, lots of families did the same. They [00:31:05] started taking their kids all the way to Paris for the treatment until it started in the UK. And [00:31:10] until now, he’s still alive.

Payman Langroudi: So I mean, what was going through your head? Were you.

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh. [00:31:15] Well, I had to fight for him, basically. Anyhow, if [00:31:20] there is no treatment, then let’s check clinical trials. It was a risk because it’s a clinical trial. But I [00:31:25] know that that treatment was up and running in the US. Uh, but that’s the only treatment that really [00:31:30] keeping him alive. He will never have a normal life. He will always be disabled. But I’m okay with that. Um, [00:31:35] just giving him the best quality of life he can have.

Payman Langroudi: So did you go into, like, deep research [00:31:40] mode yourself? Like, just trying to find out everything you could.

Sanaa Harroussi: And try to get in touch with other [00:31:45] special needs mom, with kids with the same condition who were guiding me what to do next. Um, [00:31:50] and then whatever treatment he would need next, whatever surgery he would need next. Um, [00:31:55] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And he’s eight now.

Sanaa Harroussi: He’s eight. Yes. And so. Correct. [00:32:00]

Payman Langroudi: So when you say he’ll be disabled.

Sanaa Harroussi: Like he can’t walk, he’s always wheelchair. [00:32:05] Yeah, yeah. It affects all the muscles of the body. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And what was the treatment [00:32:10] that that.

Sanaa Harroussi: So it’s a new treatment. Uh, so with that neuromuscular [00:32:15] condition, it affects the way the signal comes from the brain to the muscle to ask the muscle to move. [00:32:20] So, uh, the it’s like a treatment. He has to have an injection [00:32:25] on his spine. It’s a bit like the epidural. Mhm. But he has to have that medication every four [00:32:30] months for the rest of his life. Mhm. So once every four months he gets the injection done with whatever molecule [00:32:35] that is missing to.

Payman Langroudi: Can you move at all.

Sanaa Harroussi: Oh he can move. Yeah. He can move his [00:32:40] hand. If you give him an iPad you’d be very impressed about the way he can.

Payman Langroudi: Swipe. [00:32:45]

Sanaa Harroussi: It. Yeah. We had friends visiting last weekend and their daughter [00:32:50] was just amazed about the way he was using his his iPad and how quickly he could, you know, [00:32:55] he was like, I don’t want to be rude, but I didn’t realise how clever he was. But when you see him [00:33:00] using his iPad, wow. It’s impressive. And he could screen mirror it. Especially if, like, daddy’s watching [00:33:05] TV and he’s on his iPad watching cartoons and he wants to annoy him. And like, it would be [00:33:10] like, you know, when you’re just waiting for the goal is coming. And then he would scream cartoons [00:33:15] on the TV. Yeah, he’s extremely clever.

Payman Langroudi: And your day to day, I mean, does he go to a normal school?

Sanaa Harroussi: He goes to a special [00:33:20] school.

Payman Langroudi: A special.

Sanaa Harroussi: School? Yeah. Yeah, we’ve got great support. We’ve got his uh, we’ve got, [00:33:25] uh, like carers helping with him.

Payman Langroudi: Who visit every day and.

Sanaa Harroussi: Every day they [00:33:30] take him to school. Um, he has a school transport as well. Um, yeah. [00:33:35] And he has an overnight carer as well who’s watching him while he’s asleep.

Payman Langroudi: And what goes through your mind [00:33:40] about the future with him?

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, I don’t take life for granted anymore. [00:33:45] You have to take it one day at a time, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. I remember one of my best friends. [00:33:50] Um, she came to visit him at the hospital, and [00:33:55] back then he was in intensive care, and he was really sick. And she goes, that’s really sad. You know, it’s heartbreaking. [00:34:00] And, um, a few years later, last year, she got cancer [00:34:05] and she passed away within eight months. Wow. So you never know who’s gonna. [00:34:10] You know.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s changed you in that way?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes. Yeah. [00:34:15] You really have to just enjoy life and take it one day at a time.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:34:20] important. I mean, it’s funny because I find when when [00:34:25] things go wrong in your life, the best way to deal with it is to kind of [00:34:30] have gratitude for.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, I’m appreciating health a lot.

Payman Langroudi: But gratitude for what [00:34:35] you do have.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes. And when I had my third child, I was grateful for every tiny [00:34:40] bit.

Payman Langroudi: Was it a third child?

Sanaa Harroussi: A third son after that, four years later. So every four years. [00:34:45] But I’m done now. Uh, so I wanted [00:34:50] my elder son to have a sibling he could play with who could run after him, who could, you know. And so together [00:34:55] they play football together.

Payman Langroudi: So they have a four year old as well.

Sanaa Harroussi: I’ve got a four year old.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. You [00:35:00] are busy. Yes, you are busy. And you still work full time?

Sanaa Harroussi: I work, [00:35:05] uh, four days. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: No. I think I think you should go [00:35:10] down to, like, two days would be perfect for you.

Sanaa Harroussi: Maybe one day.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [00:35:15] I’ve done one day. You know, I’ve done everything. I’ve done. One day, two days, four days, five days. I haven’t done six. Um, [00:35:20] but one day I did for about five years. And it’s [00:35:25] incorrect. It’s just not right. You just.

Sanaa Harroussi: I think to the minimum.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not there enough. Yeah. To [00:35:30] give a damn, you know, like, let’s say the nurse does something wrong or something’s [00:35:35] up with your loops or something. You’re just like, you look at your watch and you’re [00:35:40] like, you’re going to be out of here in two hours time, and then it’s all over. You know, it’s just it’s not the right rhythm. [00:35:45] Whereas I find two days plus a hobby or in your case, you know.

Sanaa Harroussi: I’m addicted [00:35:50] to dentistry. That’s the problem. I enjoy dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Two days is good, two.

Sanaa Harroussi: Days is good, two days. And I could [00:35:55] do courses or something of the week. But it has to be dentistry. I know.

Payman Langroudi: Two days plus another [00:36:00] business, let’s say. Yeah, like some people do property or whatever. In your case, just two days. Plus [00:36:05] your mother. You’ve got enough on your plate. On your plate. Or two days. Plus yoga, if you want. Yeah. [00:36:10] It’s. What I’m saying is two days is kind of this hobby dentistry? Yeah. Three days. If [00:36:15] it’s like you have to earn like, you know, and I think, you know, five [00:36:20] days is incorrect. Like, you really shouldn’t do five days. It’s a mistake at [00:36:25] a higher level of dentistry I think for 3 or 2 is correct. [00:36:30] But then they have to be good days, right? They have to be important days. Days that you, you [00:36:35] know, you produce um, or days that you want to do stuff, the kind of [00:36:40] dentistry you want to do. Right. And so, you know, in your case, you have to [00:36:45] you have to do the pros, you know, put the pros into practice. Um, [00:36:50] and that’s the, the fire in your belly that I saw in [00:36:55] many smile makeover. You need to do that kind of work I think definitely [00:37:00] it’s interesting interesting question, man, Amount that you’re managing all of that with [00:37:05] a massive smile on your face.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes, I’m an optimistic person. I always take take everything positively. [00:37:10]

Payman Langroudi: Would you say that was the darkest day, though, when when you found out [00:37:15] about your.

Sanaa Harroussi: The saddest day of my life? Yes. The [00:37:20] diagnosis. Because you know that your life will never be the same.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: Neither [00:37:25] before and days after. But it made me stronger.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: And that resilience. That boy has such resilience [00:37:30] like he. The first year was the hardest. Now he’s absolutely fine. Now he’s very, [00:37:35] very stable. Uh, but the first year, um, and you see how thick [00:37:40] he would be, but he still kind of. He’s such a tough cookie. He’s [00:37:45] really, really resilient. And he’s, like, fighting with all his heart. So when you see [00:37:50] him like that, fighting that hard, you have to, you know, you have to be supportive. You have to help him.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:37:55] think kids end up teaching you as much as you teach them.

Sanaa Harroussi: From.

Payman Langroudi: Him in all kids, you know? I [00:38:00] mean, he’s a special case, right? Yeah, but all kids, you think you’re going to teach them, but [00:38:05] you actually do learn a lot from from them because they haven’t got the bullshit that we have as an [00:38:10] adult. You know, you end up your your basic childish sort of hopes and dreams [00:38:15] get polluted so much as you, as you grow up. Um, and kids still have that, right? They [00:38:20] still have it. Tell me about your career goals now, then. [00:38:25]

Sanaa Harroussi: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Are you going to continue going on every course you find?

Sanaa Harroussi: And I [00:38:30] really enjoy it. Really, really enjoy taking courses. Um. I find [00:38:35] it fun. It’s like going back to uni, in a way. Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But something different from the [00:38:40] day to day.

Sanaa Harroussi: But I like to improve myself. And, um.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:38:45] did this come from with this, this sort of, um, obsessive improvement [00:38:50] thing?

Sanaa Harroussi: I’m not sure.

Payman Langroudi: Like, were you that child [00:38:55] from.

Sanaa Harroussi: I probably got it from my mum. My mum is a perfectionist. She wants everything to be perfect. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: You would [00:39:00] like that as a child, even?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes. Really? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t remember [00:39:05] a time when you weren’t that.

Sanaa Harroussi: Since I was a child, to be honest, [00:39:10] I’ve always tried to improve myself. I would always have, like, [00:39:15] it’s like a PDP in place personal development plan.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:39:20] then what’s the downside of being that person? If [00:39:25] something isn’t perfect, does it drive you crazy? No.

Sanaa Harroussi: No, I’m all right. But [00:39:30] the downside is I can be a bit too tough on myself. But lately, [00:39:35] I’m trying to kind of be more gentle with myself, give myself a tap in the back and [00:39:40] say. And just think you’re doing your best, and that’s enough. Yeah, yeah. [00:39:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, it’s a problem. It’s a disease of women generally that [00:39:50] they really don’t give themselves a break. Yeah. I’ve noticed. Um, and [00:39:55] this is why I was asking you about having it all, because it’s so difficult to have it. All right. [00:40:00]

Sanaa Harroussi: The retreat is good. Where’d you go? So last year, I went to Ibiza. [00:40:05] Oh, it was amazing. Uh, so it was just all about meditation and [00:40:10] yoga.

Payman Langroudi: Do you do that anyway?

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh, I do Pilates at [00:40:15] least twice a week when I can. Three times a week. It’s great for the backache. I don’t have [00:40:20] that much backache. Since I’ve started Pilates and the loops. These two things combined together did help a lot. Um, [00:40:25] so. Yeah. And then going for retreat. Just for a long weekend. But it makes a huge [00:40:30] difference. You come back really refreshed.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk clinical now. What’s [00:40:35] what’s your favourite kind of treatment?

Sanaa Harroussi: What I would say. Bonding.

Payman Langroudi: Bonding. Really?

Sanaa Harroussi: I love it. [00:40:40] I just love the result and the look on the face of the patient when they hold the mirror.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:40:45] but, I mean, that doesn’t have to be bonding, right? That could be veneers or whatever, like, you.

Sanaa Harroussi: Know, but even, [00:40:50] like.

Payman Langroudi: Sculpt it yourself. You like to actually make the tooth yourself a [00:40:55] bit of an artist.

Sanaa Harroussi: Building it up from from scratch. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: But don’t you find with bonding that the [00:41:00] result doesn’t last very long?

Sanaa Harroussi: So it’s a balance, and it depends on [00:41:05] the patients with heavy smokers.

Payman Langroudi: And the dentist. Right? Yes. True. True. [00:41:10] Um, but it’s very unforgiving work. That’s the thing. It is [00:41:15] bonding.

Sanaa Harroussi: A tiny little, like, air bubble can just mess up the whole thing. Yeah. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:41:20] But if you think about. We like to talk about mistakes on this pod.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes. [00:41:25]

Payman Langroudi: Clinical mistakes.

Sanaa Harroussi: I’ve got a quite funny one.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind when I say clinical? [00:41:30] Clinical error.

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh, so I had, uh, that was about 15 years [00:41:35] ago or 14 years ago, um.

Payman Langroudi: In the.

Sanaa Harroussi: Uk. In the UK was quite nervous, patient. [00:41:40] And I’m just about to do basic thing as cementing an inlay. Um, [00:41:45] and the patient started panicking, literally pulled out my hand and swallowed the inlay. [00:41:50]

Payman Langroudi: And he pulled your hand out?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes. She pulled my hand out, and.

Payman Langroudi: Then you dropped it.

Sanaa Harroussi: And [00:41:55] swallowed it. I was trying it on. I’m just trying if it fits well before cementing it. And she [00:42:00] just.

Payman Langroudi: Happened. She was nervous or something.

Sanaa Harroussi: She had a bit of a gag as well. So literally pull out my hand, swallowed [00:42:05] it and I had to send her for chest x ray. So yeah, that was not fun. [00:42:10]

Payman Langroudi: So what you sent to the hospital?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, I had to send her to the hospital for chest [00:42:15] x ray to make sure it didn’t go in the airway. No, it wasn’t stomach. It was fine.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:42:20] happened then?

Sanaa Harroussi: I can’t remember, I think I fitted the Fuji for her back then, [00:42:25] like temporary.

Payman Langroudi: Did she?

Sanaa Harroussi: I think I referred her to. I think she was seen [00:42:30] afterwards by another dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Did she kind of take the blame for it, or was she blaming you?

Sanaa Harroussi: She didn’t [00:42:35] blame me. Of course she knows. It’s not my fault. It was quite traumatic. I think it was taken over by another [00:42:40] dentist afterward.

Payman Langroudi: What about a a treatment that went wrong [00:42:45] in some way? Like did you learn something?

Sanaa Harroussi: So I learned that day I better put [00:42:50] a rubber dam rubber down. That’s I learned that day. Um, Uh.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, from, [00:42:55] from a treatment modality kind of perspective, you know, like, sometimes you do something a [00:43:00] certain way until you see it fail. I mean, 15 years in the same practice, you must [00:43:05] have seen your own work fail a few times. Right? So where is [00:43:10] that kind of comeback and made you think? Think about, oh, I’m going to do things slightly differently [00:43:15] because a lot of people don’t have that privilege. Right? To see.

Sanaa Harroussi: Their own.

Payman Langroudi: Because they move [00:43:20] around so much. What comes to mind when I say that?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. [00:43:25] Using rubber dam makes a big difference, to be honest. Overall, when it [00:43:30] comes to longevity of of uh, of of feelings, for instance, using [00:43:35] the right lab does help to.

Payman Langroudi: The right lab. Yeah. Huge. Huge. [00:43:40] When you use the right lab, you feel like a brilliant dentist. True. And when you use a bad lab, you feel [00:43:45] like a terrible dentist. Yes. And sometimes it’s not you, you know, sometimes it is the lab.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, sometimes [00:43:50] it is the lab. And the worst thing is when they deny it. You know, if they apologise, it’s okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:43:55] well I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t blame like it’s not. It’s not like who’s going to take the blame.

Sanaa Harroussi: But we [00:44:00] work as a team but yeah yeah, yeah. But some labs, they just wouldn’t, um, [00:44:05] wouldn’t take your feedback to learn from it. I’m not giving you the feedback just to criticise. [00:44:10] We want to move on together. Um, when when I see that I’m giving a proper feedback [00:44:15] and they kind of denying it all, not even trying to see where is the problem. You [00:44:20] know, you might need to change the lab. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What aspect of the job do you hate? [00:44:25]

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, what [00:44:30] aspect of the job? I hate working in the stress overall.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:44:35]

Sanaa Harroussi: Working under pressure because that [00:44:40] can push you to make mistakes.

Payman Langroudi: Time pressure.

Sanaa Harroussi: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Did you have that [00:44:45] issue that you’re like, for instance, NHS you can’t give the time?

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh, no, usually I do give [00:44:50] the time. Even with NHS, I try to find the right balance. I don’t overbook myself, [00:44:55] but you could be more productive rather [00:45:00] than booking a patient. I’ve never been booking every ten minutes.

Payman Langroudi: So how long [00:45:05] do you spend on an average day?

Sanaa Harroussi: Half an hour per patient.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: 15 [00:45:10] minutes if it’s a fit. But usually we really take our time.

Payman Langroudi: It’s difficult running both kind [00:45:15] of both private and NHS in the same situation. Right. Either one of them [00:45:20] gets better or one of them gets worse. You know, there’s there’s it’s hard and [00:45:25] it’s hard to explain to patients. That must be the hardest bit. That’s the hardest bit.

Sanaa Harroussi: What is covered. What [00:45:30] is not covered. Which part has to be private? Which which part can be NHS? Yeah, that’s going to be.

Payman Langroudi: Changing as well. So it’s [00:45:35] difficult explaining to a patient that I’m going to take more time. It’s [00:45:40] kind of a difficult conversation to have because patients say, what do you mean like this? [00:45:45] Or I’m going to use a better material. Even that feels strange, [00:45:50] doesn’t it? Yes. So how did you negotiate that? You must. You must have figured out that conversation.

Sanaa Harroussi: Find a [00:45:55] polite way of explaining it, basically.

Payman Langroudi: What’d you say? Like, [00:46:00] how do you explain to a patient a private feeling over an NHS one? What do you say? The colour. [00:46:05]

Sanaa Harroussi: As well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: Using the word cosmetic [00:46:10] filling can help. They can understand whatever cosmetic is more private rather than NHS.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:46:15]

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, and then you offer both. But you [00:46:20] explained that that material more cosmetic is going to give more cosmetic results.

Payman Langroudi: And what [00:46:25] do you reckon that you’re going to do next. Like what. [00:46:30] Have you got a plan. You must have. Right. You’re that planner.

Sanaa Harroussi: I used to plan. [00:46:35] The thing is, I used to plan my life ten years in advance. Before I had my son. [00:46:40] My second son.

Payman Langroudi: That changed. The game.

Sanaa Harroussi: Changed. And I’m kind of like, I’m going to take it one day at [00:46:45] a time and just wait and see. Whatever life is throwing [00:46:50] at me.

Payman Langroudi: But you, for instance, do you ever plan to have your own practice?

Sanaa Harroussi: My own practice? [00:46:55] Um. I’m going to need an amazing associate’s before I can think about [00:47:00] practice. Practice by myself would be too challenging.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but you could. You could buy a practice with [00:47:05] four associates or whatever. You know, like.

Sanaa Harroussi: Possibly.

Payman Langroudi: Owning [00:47:10] your own practice, for instance, as a time constraint. Right?

Sanaa Harroussi: It’s a that’s the thing. It’s a [00:47:15] responsibility.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a responsibility.

Sanaa Harroussi: Responsibility.

Payman Langroudi: So but were you not that person [00:47:20] who was always dreaming of owning your own practice? I mean, maybe maybe your son changed that idea, right?

Sanaa Harroussi: It [00:47:25] was in my mind in the long run, but.

Payman Langroudi: Now [00:47:30] it doesn’t bother you?

Sanaa Harroussi: It doesn’t really bother me. If it happens, great. If it doesn’t, it’s okay.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [00:47:35] the best lecture you’ve ever been to?

Sanaa Harroussi: Ah. That’s [00:47:40] easy.

Payman Langroudi: Is it?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:47:45] is it Your lecture, not [00:47:50] mine. You mean Depeche?

Sanaa Harroussi: Depeche. Palmer? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [00:47:55]

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about your post-grad lectures in France? Surely there was someone there that did something.

Sanaa Harroussi: Um. [00:48:00] Yeah. In fixed prosthodontics. We had very [00:48:05] nice ones as well. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like, have you do you ever [00:48:10] do full mouth rehab type cases?

Sanaa Harroussi: Not that many with bonding. [00:48:15] Yes. Yes. With bonding? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Not. Not the sort [00:48:20] of full on prep.

Sanaa Harroussi: Not full on.

Payman Langroudi: Prep.

Sanaa Harroussi: But it was mainly bonding with [00:48:25] free hands.

Payman Langroudi: Aha. So even posterior as well.

Sanaa Harroussi: Oh, [00:48:30] you mean a full mouth.

Payman Langroudi: Full mouth.

Sanaa Harroussi: Okay. Um. Yeah. [00:48:35]

Payman Langroudi: You do them.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. [00:48:40]

Payman Langroudi: And digital. Have you, have you sort of gone digital yet. You haven’t.

Sanaa Harroussi: I haven’t [00:48:45] tried that yet. That would be amazing.

Payman Langroudi: That’s that’s a whole that’s a whole thing in itself, right? Like, [00:48:50] and I find, you know, with anything new. Do you, have you ever used Cerec, for instance?

Sanaa Harroussi: We [00:48:55] don’t have it at the practice, unfortunately. So that would make it so much easier. Like to just fit the crown. [00:49:00]

Payman Langroudi: You say you say that, but I was. I wasn’t a dentist long enough, right? To really get into [00:49:05] anything properly. Right. But one of our practices back in the day brought in [00:49:10] Zurich, and it was before the, you know, now it’s all super duper, right. But back then, you had [00:49:15] to put this powder, like spray powder all over the teeth and then use the scanner. [00:49:20] And the scanner was very big, huge thing. And um, it’s [00:49:25] amazing they used to let you do these things without even going on a course. My principal said, yeah, this is how [00:49:30] you do it. And I just did it. Yeah. And I remember thinking that the first five, [00:49:35] three of them weren’t as good as if I’d taken an impression. [00:49:40] Yes. Yeah. And at the time, I remember thinking, look, I’ve got this situation where I could, I could [00:49:45] take an improv game and it will be perfect. It was like an inlay or onlay inlay situation. [00:49:50] Yeah, it would be perfect. Or I could pull out the cerec and two out of five weren’t [00:49:55] great. There was like, you know, there was some sort of gap or something. You know, I went ahead and cemented [00:50:00] it in. Now, the correct thing to do would be to keep going [00:50:05] here, because the first five of anything you do isn’t great. Right. [00:50:10] And to learn it, there’s a learning curve in these situations. But if [00:50:15] you’ve got something that works, why would you even change? Right. True. But [00:50:20] then again, going forward, everything’s getting more and more digital, right? So, [00:50:25] um, enlightens impressions. Now we’re, I think, 65% [00:50:30] digital. Wow. You know, and it was only a year ago. [00:50:35] We were 50 over 50. And the year before that, it was the other way around, you know, like 40, 60 [00:50:40] in favour of impressions. So that digital sort of wave is coming. [00:50:45] And the question of when do you jump into it? Often [00:50:50] when your boss buys you the equipment. Right? Correct. Yeah. But even if you have [00:50:55] the equipment, do you use it? And do you really, you know, go for.

Sanaa Harroussi: It because you have to have enough marketing to need [00:51:00] it. Because I would cut my I would I would consider getting my own, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Scanner.

Sanaa Harroussi: Scanner if [00:51:05] there was no marketing behind. And I know that it would be used enough.

Payman Langroudi: Do you do Invisalign?

Sanaa Harroussi: I [00:51:10] do Invisalign, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you like it?

Sanaa Harroussi: Love it.

Payman Langroudi: Do you?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, but I like playing with the clean [00:51:15] checks. That’s fun.

Payman Langroudi: Have you been on courses for that as well?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which one? [00:51:20]

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, the one they do at, uh. You [00:51:25] know, just hands on for IPR and, uh, clean check. That was [00:51:30] fun.

Payman Langroudi: So first Invisalign, I did. Do you remember your first case? [00:51:35]

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So my first case, I went on a weekend course. They [00:51:40] didn’t even really talk about ortho very much. They just talked about how to use the Invisalign software. [00:51:45] And then next minute I’m doing an Invisalign. I honestly couldn’t believe it was [00:51:50] I was allowed to do. You know, I just couldn’t believe it. Do [00:51:55] you remember your first case? Yeah. Was it similar?

Sanaa Harroussi: It was challenging [00:52:00] case, though. I don’t know why. And it was. It was a nightmare with the scan back [00:52:05] then. Uh, I had borrowed scan, but back then they could let you use this. I [00:52:10] think it was, uh, I was having an open day, so I used the scan.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, they give you the scanner [00:52:15] for.

Sanaa Harroussi: You back then? Not anymore. Yeah. Now you have to rent the scan, I think. Yeah. Um, [00:52:20] so I used the scanner for whatever reason around the. Because he had wisdom teeth and I couldn’t [00:52:25] register the wisdom teeth. And I had to keep the scan. I had to bring back the patient the next [00:52:30] day, and I had to have the team over the phone. That’s kind of. It has to. It has to work. [00:52:35] Uh, but the patient was extremely patient. Really? Um. Managed [00:52:40] to sort it out at the end and the result was amazing. He was very, very pleased with the result. So. Yeah. [00:52:45]

Payman Langroudi: And how many have you done now? Many, many.

Sanaa Harroussi: I stopped counting. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But loads.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, [00:52:50] quite. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So explain to me the clinch situation. How often do you, do [00:52:55] you end up accepting the one that they send. Never.

Sanaa Harroussi: Oh no I always know I’ll always. Now it’s [00:53:00] different because you can get as well some support either from the technician or [00:53:05] from someone from the clinical team.

Payman Langroudi: Of Invisalign.

Sanaa Harroussi: Of Invisalign. So it’s quite [00:53:10] handy. You just call them and the technicians over the phone like within, like, let’s adjust this, that and you can [00:53:15] finalise it there and then, uh, but if it’s a more challenging case and you need [00:53:20] a phone call with the, with the one of, with one of the [00:53:25] orthodontists, then you can arrange a call.

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t.

Sanaa Harroussi: Know that.

Payman Langroudi: That facility.

Sanaa Harroussi: So yeah, it’s an amazing facility. [00:53:30] Yeah. And again with Invisalign a bit of perfectionist. That’s the thing. So it’s like back and forth [00:53:35] and let’s adjust this and let’s change that. Can take a bit of a time.

Payman Langroudi: Do [00:53:40] you do that thing that overcorrecting?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Important. Right?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, [00:53:45] yeah. Sometimes, especially for the gaps. Overcorrecting can help. Yeah, but you [00:53:50] don’t have to use the aligners for the. I mean, at least you’ve got them. Yeah. [00:53:55] And then if needed, you use them. I see.

Payman Langroudi: I see, I see, I see. And what percentage of your cases end up [00:54:00] in refinement.

Sanaa Harroussi: I’d say 30%. No, no. Not always. [00:54:05] Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah, but that’s what I’m saying. I’m quite fussy when it comes to initial clincheck. [00:54:10] I wouldn’t go for it until I’m sure everything’s perfect, but.

Payman Langroudi: Obviously.

Sanaa Harroussi: I do my best to. And I [00:54:15] find that more time I spend getting a perfect clincheck the least. But it depends on one case [00:54:20] from one case to the other. Um, but yeah, I don’t rush through the the [00:54:25] clincheck to make sure I get the best result, the best results I can achieve, and then I’m [00:54:30] less likely to need refinement. But with some patients, you still need this. I want it to rotate a tiny bit more so [00:54:35] you get the fussy patients.

Payman Langroudi: Patients become fussy, don’t they?

Sanaa Harroussi: Patients?

Payman Langroudi: Yes. It’s interesting [00:54:40] because you really realise that in ortho that patients become fussier. [00:54:45] Yeah. But then I remember when my kids had ortho. Yeah. I mean, okay, we’re both of us are [00:54:50] dentists here. We both became really fussy. Like, super fussy. And [00:54:55] the weird thing about it is, the minute it’s all out, you stop even thinking about it. You don’t bother [00:55:00] with it anymore. But it’s almost like, oh, this is our one chance to get it right. And poor old, [00:55:05] the doctor told my son, I hope he’s listening. I’m so sorry, [00:55:10] doctor. I took him so many times. Um, but, [00:55:15] you know, have you tried one of the other systems or only Invisalign?

Sanaa Harroussi: No. Only Invisalign. [00:55:20]

Payman Langroudi: There’s a lot of alternatives now.

Sanaa Harroussi: Nowadays there’s loads and IPR.

Payman Langroudi: Do you do with [00:55:25] the strip or do you have a thing?

Sanaa Harroussi: I do both, I do, I do strip, I do the [00:55:30] disk as well and I do the bur depending on.

Payman Langroudi: On what on on the profile that [00:55:35] you want to achieve.

Sanaa Harroussi: Exactly. But it depends on how much IPR I need to use.

Payman Langroudi: If it’s very little, you just use [00:55:40] a what do you call it? Strip. Strip. Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: So [00:55:45] the disk is quite challenging to use. You have to make sure you’re not hurting the soft tissues. It can [00:55:50] be challenging sometimes with the discs.

Payman Langroudi: I’m sure, I’m sure.

Sanaa Harroussi: I love the discs overall. Not [00:55:55] everyone does, though for the discs because you really have to be very [00:56:00] cautious with it.

Payman Langroudi: Very gentle with it. Does it cut both sides?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, but you could cut even [00:56:05] the two tissues with it. That’s what you have to be careful about.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s a double sided disc though. Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:56:10] It’s amazing man. So how much of your work is that? Most of it.

Sanaa Harroussi: No, [00:56:15] I wish.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Sanaa Harroussi: No.

Payman Langroudi: How do you get those patients?

Sanaa Harroussi: Most of the [00:56:20] patients would be just recommended patient because. Or my own patient wanting [00:56:25] to go for Invisalign.

Payman Langroudi: But you do open days as well.

Sanaa Harroussi: I haven’t [00:56:30] done any for quite a while being too busy, as I think it’s just finding the time.

Payman Langroudi: So. [00:56:35] So are you in that cycle of udas and having to finish your udas on time and all [00:56:40] of that?

Sanaa Harroussi: So we tend to be overperforming rather than underperforming. Oh really? We don’t have a big contract, [00:56:45] which makes it easier, which is a good thing because it gives you more time to do more private treatment. Um. [00:56:50]

Payman Langroudi: So when you say 70 over 30, it’s the patients are NHS patients, [00:56:55] but 70% of the work you’re doing is.

Sanaa Harroussi: 70% private and 30.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but [00:57:00] they’re all NHS patients. Yeah. The majority are NHS patients.

Sanaa Harroussi: Majority NHS patients. But most of [00:57:05] the patients there do private treatments as well. They wouldn’t go for self-referral. Obviously they would prefer [00:57:10] like a private venture private crown. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Final [00:57:15] questions fantasy dinner party.

Sanaa Harroussi: Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Three [00:57:20] guests.

Sanaa Harroussi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive. Are you having. [00:57:25]

Sanaa Harroussi: Start with Elizabeth the second. The queen.

Payman Langroudi: The queen. [00:57:30] The latest queen.

Sanaa Harroussi: Elizabeth the second.

Payman Langroudi: My [00:57:35] mum doesn’t like Camilla and I call her the Queen. [00:57:40] Okay, I know she’s.

Sanaa Harroussi: The.

Payman Langroudi: Queen. Yeah, [00:57:45] the. Let’s face it, the queen is Elizabeth. Yeah. The Queen. Okay. [00:57:50]

Sanaa Harroussi: Um. And second guest, uh, Hassan [00:57:55] the second. He used to be the king of Morocco.

Payman Langroudi: Morocco? Yeah. [00:58:00] When?

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, up to 1999. Oh, yeah. That’s [00:58:05] when Mohammed the sixth. The one who was in reign now.

Payman Langroudi: Um. Huh.

Sanaa Harroussi: Um. And [00:58:10] third one, um, it’s a poet and diplomat [00:58:15] called Nizar Qabbani. He was from Syria, and, uh, [00:58:20] he was he studied law, and then he worked as a diplomat all [00:58:25] over, um, the world. So Beirut. Madrid. [00:58:30] Cairo and London as well.

Payman Langroudi: What was the.

Sanaa Harroussi: Name? Uh, Nizar.

Payman Langroudi: Nizar. [00:58:35] Kabbani.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. Very famous poet. Not just a diplomat, [00:58:40] but he was a poet as well.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Sanaa Harroussi: My favourite poet.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. And the final [00:58:45] question. It’s a weird one. It’s like deathbed question. Yes. Three pieces [00:58:50] of advice for your loved ones.

Sanaa Harroussi: For my loved ones.

Payman Langroudi: For the world.

Sanaa Harroussi: Okay. [00:58:55] So live for yourself, not for others. Don’t let anyone judge you. Just [00:59:00] try to be the best version of yourself. Uh, don’t be too harsh on [00:59:05] yourself and look after yourself. Most importantly.

Payman Langroudi: Did [00:59:10] you feel like those lessons you learned a bit too late? The. Don’t be too harsh on [00:59:15] yourself and live for yourself. Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: That was the advice [00:59:20] that I was given by my friend who passed away last year. Oh, that was her advice. And so I learned from her [00:59:25] that part. Not. Don’t try too hard just [00:59:30] to please everyone. Do your best. And that’s it. That’s more than enough.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful, [00:59:35] beautiful place to end it. Thank you so much for coming.

Sanaa Harroussi: Thank you. Thank you [00:59:40] so.

Payman Langroudi: Much.

Sanaa Harroussi: Really a pleasure. I really enjoyed it.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Thank you.

[VOICE]: This [00:59:45] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go [00:59:50] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:59:55] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:00:00] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:00:05] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to [01:00:10] what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out [01:00:15] of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [01:00:20] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much [01:00:25] for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast comes to you from Enlighten Enlightens, an advanced teeth whitening system [00:00:05] that guarantees results on every single patient. We’ve treated hundreds of thousands of patients [00:00:10] now and have a really clear understanding of what it takes to get every patient to that delighted [00:00:15] state that we want to get to. If you want to understand teeth whitening in much further detail, join [00:00:20] us for online training only takes an hour completely free. Even if you never use [00:00:25] enlighten as a whitening system, you’ll learn loads and loads about whitening, how to talk about it, [00:00:30] how to involve your teams. Join us enlighten online training comm.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [00:00:45] leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Aliph Moosajee, otherwise known as The [00:01:00] Smiling Dentist. Onto the podcast. Nice smile there. You’ve got. Hello. Hi, [00:01:05] Payman.

Alif Moosajee: Thank you. Thank you so much. It would be very off brand if I didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: I know, I know, [00:01:10] you’ve been smiling dentist from the beginning, right?

Alif Moosajee: Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, well, I wrote a book. [00:01:15] Uh, it’s going back about 12 years ago, I remember it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, there was a book. There was?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. [00:01:20] And I decided to call it The Smiling Dentist. In my infinite wisdom, I’m not sure. Now, [00:01:25] I think back sometimes to, uh, Jamie Oliver. Yeah. I don’t know if you remember when he first [00:01:30] started, he was the naked chef. Yeah. And he very quickly dropped that tagline [00:01:35] because he realised it wasn’t serving him. Unfortunately, mine seems to have perpetuated further [00:01:40] than I would like it to. So even on my very grumpy days and my sad and [00:01:45] reflective and very pissed off days, I still have to be smiling.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, of course I [00:01:50] didn’t even think about that.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, but then again, I know they they do talk about this, whereby [00:01:55] when we’re happy, we smile.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Alif Moosajee: But I think the, uh, the reverse is [00:02:00] true. Sometimes faking a smile can sometimes trick you into feeling happier than [00:02:05] than you really are.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, kind of like that Tony Robbins kind of way of thinking about [00:02:10] things. Yeah, like standing up straight.

Alif Moosajee: Absolutely, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: The effect of physiology [00:02:15] on psychology.

Alif Moosajee: Quite right. And I know, uh, we [00:02:20] touch on dinner guests, but. But Tony Robbins probably would be one of my dinner guests, because, yeah, [00:02:25] there’s there’s there’s a lot. I was very lucky to be introduced to him [00:02:30] when I was, uh, quite young in my career. It was only like a year qualified.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:02:35]

Alif Moosajee: And, uh, and, uh, and as such, uh, it’s I’ve [00:02:40] been able to, to take some of his teachings throughout my career and [00:02:45] throughout my life as well.

Payman Langroudi: Have you been to one of the events?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, a few times, actually. [00:02:50] Oh, really? So he has his flagship one. It’s called Unleash the Power Within where you walk on fire [00:02:55] and stuff. Yeah, I’ve done that three times. Three times three. Yeah, yeah. So twice on my own. [00:03:00] And then once with my wife, Romana. Um, and then I’ve [00:03:05] also been out to Florida. He does another one called Business Mastery. Uh, so I went out there. [00:03:10] It’s a slightly smaller event. Uh, but yeah, it was really good, actually.

Payman Langroudi: So I read the book. [00:03:15] When when was it? I just qualified, and then I [00:03:20] bought some CDs.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um. And it’s so funny, I had I had, uh, one [00:03:25] of the CD changer. Yes, yes. My, my mum said [00:03:30] to me, I think I was like 19 or something, and my mum said, what do you want for your birthday? And I said, [00:03:35] I want a CD changer. Yeah. And, uh, I put this CD changer [00:03:40] in my I think it was like Alfa Romeo at the time. And then something happened to it [00:03:45] where I couldn’t eject the five CDs that were in there.

Alif Moosajee: Right. [00:03:50]

Payman Langroudi: And so basically, I had the same five CDs.

Alif Moosajee: And it was all Tony Robbins.

Payman Langroudi: It was. [00:03:55] No, no, one of them was actually. Wait a minute. This. Oh, yeah. The CDs were after I qualified. [00:04:00] It was, it was, it was. We started enlightened by that time. Okay. We started I read the book [00:04:05] early on, but, um, so then at that time, there was no internet, right? There was no online [00:04:10] training. So at the beginning of enlightened, people would say, you know, some guy in Lincoln [00:04:15] would say, send a rep, and that would be me, right? I would be the one [00:04:20] going to every single sales call.

Alif Moosajee: Oh, wow.

Payman Langroudi: And man, I remember it was such painful days, man. I [00:04:25] remember like, I’m terrible with directions as it goes anyway, but I’d have [00:04:30] to drive to Lincoln, right? Obviously figure out how to get to Lincoln first of all. Then [00:04:35] go to a petrol station, buy an A to Z of Lincoln, right. And [00:04:40] then find the practice in there. And then, you know, there was no satnav. So [00:04:45] it was a different world, wasn’t it?

Alif Moosajee: It really was.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, at that time companies [00:04:50] used to have like regional I mean, they still do regional reps. Yes, those regional reps would know the [00:04:55] area really well. They’d know the practices, but we had nobody. It was just me. It was literally me. [00:05:00] And so I would be the one picking up the phone. I’d be the one setting up the appointment, [00:05:05] turning up and everything else, developing the products and everything. And um, [00:05:10] like I say, the multi-channel got stuck. And one of the 20 [00:05:15] CDs of Tony Robbins was in there, and I must have listened [00:05:20] to this one CD. Um, it must have been a hundred times. Wow. At [00:05:25] least a hundred times. Because, you know, I only had these five CDs to play with. Absolutely. Yeah. And what [00:05:30] it really taught me was the power of repetition. Yeah. Well.

Alif Moosajee: Well, quite.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:05:35] because I know I’ve quoted some of the lessons from that one [00:05:40] CD.

Alif Moosajee: Right. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: To friends and family and people and people at work. And [00:05:45] it was all about overwhelm. Yeah. What do you do if you’re in overwhelm? Yeah. And the five questions [00:05:50] to ask yourself. And I don’t remember any of the other 19 CDs. Yeah, I [00:05:55] remember little inkling. Yeah, but that one. And so on. Our composite [00:06:00] course, we do this repetition thing where, you know, there are new words, aren’t there? [00:06:05] You know, microfill composite. You know, people, first time you tell someone you’ve got microfill, you’ve got nanofiller, [00:06:10] you’ve got, you know, Microhybrid. Yeah. Most dentists, these are new words. Yeah. And [00:06:15] so the repetition of those words and even the idea that we get people to come back [00:06:20] to the course as many times as they like, they sit in the back because repetition [00:06:25] is so important. I really such an interesting thing.

Alif Moosajee: And it’s funny you mention that because I mentioned I’ve been on that [00:06:30] particular Tony Robbins thing three times. Yeah, but I was in slightly different places [00:06:35] in my life each time. And so I heard the message, and I bet that’s the [00:06:40] same if on a dental course as well. I bet the I don’t know if this happens [00:06:45] to you, but sometimes you’ll have a patient in mind that you’re thinking, right, that would [00:06:50] be the perfect one to use this particular new skill I’ve got on. And [00:06:55] if that patient, the next time you go on the course is somebody different, with a slightly different challenge, [00:07:00] you’ll hear a whole other set of tips, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: The questions you have in your head when you haven’t tried [00:07:05] a case yet, compared to the questions you have once you’ve tried a few times.

Alif Moosajee: You’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Tried totally different questions. [00:07:10]

Alif Moosajee: I quite, quite agree, but.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me if you had to put it in a nutshell, what did these Tony [00:07:15] Robbins days do for you? Like, now talk me through basically what [00:07:20] happens and and I mean, I notice people I know other people who’ve gone, gone, gone [00:07:25] on them. People go into it sort of, um, not very focussed and come out of it [00:07:30] with life goals. Yeah, yeah. So go on, give me, give me, give me a little summary. What happens?

Alif Moosajee: One [00:07:35] of the, um, misunderstandings is it’s all rah rah positivity. Yeah, I [00:07:40] think there’s a lot more structured than that. And it’s very clever the way that he teaches. [00:07:45] And he does go into it. And I’m happy to share some of those things as well. But in a nutshell, for me, [00:07:50] what I felt is that a lot of what we learn as human beings is not [00:07:55] actively learned. It’s just by watching people and watching their patterns [00:08:00] and thinking that that pattern is the right pattern, or thinking it’s wrong and rejecting [00:08:05] it. So sometimes you have kids who are quote unquote good kids. They’re good kids because [00:08:10] they do what their parents tell them to do and do what they do as well. And then you sometimes have [00:08:15] rebellious kids who look at their parents, um, I suppose, uh, examples [00:08:20] and reject them outright. But if you only have those two, then [00:08:25] a lot of the time we’re not consciously thinking about what [00:08:30] we’re doing. And I think one of the key things was that I learned that I had [00:08:35] a choice. I learned that there was a framework for understanding also [00:08:40] what is going through other people’s heads and what they’re communicating to me. [00:08:45]

Alif Moosajee: So there is a way there of managing my own state, my own [00:08:50] emotions, and choosing whether I decide to be pissed off by something, or do [00:08:55] I decide to be happy when this kind of thing happens? Um, I think that was one of [00:09:00] the key, key learnings. But the thing that I do enjoy, and, uh, I’ve learned [00:09:05] to love now, is that he makes the audience very excited. And [00:09:10] the reason is, he explains that whenever we learn something new, it’s [00:09:15] like a new neural connection has been made. Now, if we make [00:09:20] that connection, it will be very, very weak and we can strengthen it [00:09:25] through. You’ve already said it. Repetition. Or if you are super excited [00:09:30] and engaged at the time, you can hear that message once and it you know, it really [00:09:35] anchors in. So this business about knowing when the room the energy is dropping [00:09:40] and getting people to stand up and you know, he plays music and everyone’s dancing and all this stuff’s going on, [00:09:45] is to re-engage so that we’re more receptive and take the messages home.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:09:50] have you you’ve done some lecturing in your time? Yeah. Have you found yourself sort of using those tactics? [00:09:55]

Alif Moosajee: Well, the unfortunately the Dental audience is, is a little [00:10:00] bit more conservative, certainly, than the American audience.

Payman Langroudi: Anyone who wants to come here, say hi. [00:10:05] Yeah, exactly.

Alif Moosajee: But I remember in my early days there [00:10:10] was an American lecture called John Kanka. I remember John, yeah. Top guy. Very clever [00:10:15] guy. And he came over and, you know, he started the presentation with this [00:10:20] great music and speakers and everything going. And then I think the room [00:10:25] was not receptive to it. We weren’t ready as British dentists for this. So [00:10:30] but I think that there are those who are doing it. And I certainly find that if [00:10:35] I can engage and excite in a way and and to tell a story [00:10:40] as well, I’ve found that as human beings, often A lot of the lessons we learn [00:10:45] are through stories like Aesop’s Fables and things like this. So if you can control [00:10:50] a narrative and tell a good story, you can often impart a lesson quite nicely. [00:10:55] And sometimes the audience won’t even know that they’ve learnt a lesson.

Payman Langroudi: You know, one [00:11:00] of the questions I normally ask at the end I’m going to ask you right now is what was [00:11:05] the best lecture you’ve ever been to?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And when I think about lecturers [00:11:10] and you can, you can marinate in it while I tell you my story about lecturers. [00:11:15] Um, you know, there’s a, there’s a, you know, in the same way as, as a dentist, [00:11:20] you’ve got your clinical skills and then you’ve got your soft skills, your communication skills. [00:11:25] And and in many ways, the communication skills are just as important as the clinical [00:11:30] skills. Yes. And I think about lecturers, you know, there’s different styles of lecturing, [00:11:35] you know. Um, and you know, famous ones like, uh, for [00:11:40] me, for me, the best lecture I ever went to was Gallop Girl. [00:11:45] Okay. Um, and it was a combination of hero worship [00:11:50] for that, for that Adonis of a man who is an Olympic, [00:11:55] whatever. He was a water polo player or whatever he was. But also the technique [00:12:00] was was something that he kind of discovered himself. That was it, that empty technique, whatever [00:12:05] the, the the the, um, uh, temporising technique, [00:12:10] where he would drill off just the right amount of, of it. So it was a new technique, right. And [00:12:15] then the the presentation, the presentation was awe inspiring. I mean, at [00:12:20] the time, you know, things would move around and beautiful presentation. Now [00:12:25] you’ve got that. And now I remember that as my favourite lecture that I ever went to.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:12:30] I’ve sat in a lot on Chris Orr’s lectures. Yes. And, you [00:12:35] know, Chris is a phenomenon, right, in terms of the way he sells out and, and how, you know, [00:12:40] I’ve given every single young dentist the advice of go on the Chris Haw course. Yes, I’ve sat in [00:12:45] on a lot of his lectures because, you know, we do enlighten over there. And his presentation’s [00:12:50] not beautiful at all. It’s not. It’s not even. It’s not trying to be beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:12:55] But he’s got a way of I think it’s very interesting that you can be there [00:13:00] can be breadth in a presentation or there can be depth in it. [00:13:05] And he’s got a wonderful way of combining breadth and depth together. Yes. Whereas where [00:13:10] you feel like he’s covered the whole subject, but he’s gone deep enough in the different parts of it [00:13:15] and totally different presentation styles. Dipesh I mean, his [00:13:20] presentation is just something else. I mean, it’s the most beautiful thing you’ll ever [00:13:25] see on the screen. Yeah. And then his his kind of technique is very sort of casually [00:13:30] talking about the process of what he does. Yeah. Very rarely [00:13:35] does he mention the patient’s sort of social All situation. He’s very much [00:13:40] in the teeth. Yes. And then sometimes we have Matty. Matty Parsons, he does the [00:13:45] marketing piece.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. And his is much more about the person, the communications. [00:13:50] When a patient says to you, I trust you, you go ahead and decide yourself. That’s the danger [00:13:55] patient. Yeah. You know, when a patient tells you exactly what they want, that’s much easier. They’ve almost made the [00:14:00] treatment plan for you. It’s very interesting. You know, the the ways of teaching. And now we’ve [00:14:05] got all the online part. Yes. You know, you can you can send all the lectures before time. [00:14:10] Yeah. And you know, people could read them and then do all hands on. Um, it’s [00:14:15] an interesting thing. Now, I’m interested in your career insomuch [00:14:20] as I’ve been to your practice. Oakdale. Beautiful. Thank you. Beautiful. I’m sure it’s even [00:14:25] more beautiful now than the way I would characterise it. A bit like a Ralph Lauren [00:14:30] sort of showroom. Yeah. Sort of thing. Yeah. Um, I [00:14:35] want to hear the whole story of Oakdale, But also, you’ve also just been around [00:14:40] on the circuit to see all used to see all the famous educational events and [00:14:45] in all the sort of trade fairs and so on. What is it about you that that [00:14:50] makes you that guy? And and not sort of the guy who just sits in a surgery and you’re involved in [00:14:55] the dental world?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, when did that happen? Was there an inflection?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, there [00:15:00] was, there was, um, I, I started as an undergraduate. [00:15:05] Um. And where.

Payman Langroudi: Did you.

Alif Moosajee: Study? So it was Birmingham. Birmingham. And, [00:15:10] uh, I’ve always been reasonably clever, and I don’t mean that with hubris, honestly. It just I [00:15:15] was good at picking up stuff. Um, but then when it came to doing practical stuff, [00:15:20] I was probably the worst in the year. Um, and I remember having a really, [00:15:25] really tough time of it on clinic. I remember doing the amalgam test, failing it [00:15:30] twice. Um, so. So that was something I, you know, I was really upset about because [00:15:35] I thought, right, all I want to do is to be a good dentist. And for all the knowledge [00:15:40] I have and I’ve absorbed and assimilated and I pass all the tests first time, all of that. But [00:15:45] I wasn’t able to do the bloody job. Um, and [00:15:50] so that, that, that really, you know, killed my confidence. And I spent a long time, you know, [00:15:55] on those clinical years just trying to fly under the radar and not get in trouble. Yeah. And then that was what [00:16:00] the start of my career was like. And I felt like, right, I’m just going to be a very humble exam [00:16:05] scale and polish, you know, do the odd filling here and there, and I’ll just keep myself out of trouble. And [00:16:10] that’s how I’ll see my years out. Um, and then I remember it was, [00:16:15] I think I was probably seven, seven years qualified. I’d spent some time in the NHS and then moved [00:16:20] into private practice, um, as an associate. And then I actually I got [00:16:25] a complaint, uh, and it was about a scale and polish. Yeah. [00:16:30]

Payman Langroudi: Of all things.

Alif Moosajee: Of all things. Um, and what had happened was the patient had developed [00:16:35] some sensitivity afterwards. Um, and then came back. Came [00:16:40] back to practices. I want a refund, I want compensation, um, and [00:16:45] I remember calling up Dental protection. It was Raj Rutton who was actually the advisor [00:16:50] for me. And he says he looked at the notes and he says, no, these are fine, watertight. [00:16:55] You know, you can do what you want so you can either pay the money back to him or you [00:17:00] can tell him to piss off, basically, and you’ll be fine. Um, and I remember [00:17:05] the guy actually saying that if if I don’t have the refund it was in the letter, then basically [00:17:10] I’m going to let the regulator know. So the GDC will be informed. And I was like, I didn’t really like [00:17:15] the thought of blackmail as well. And I thought, I’m going to stand my ground and tell him to do [00:17:20] one. It was a mistake, I think, at the time, because unfortunately [00:17:25] he did go to the GDC. The GDC did create a case. Um, and I [00:17:30] still remember getting the letter, uh, from them which formerly told me about the complaint. [00:17:35]

Alif Moosajee: And if there’s one thing I can do, which I hope would be of of value to the listeners, [00:17:40] is to explain that what happens with the GDC is that [00:17:45] so, you know, in a normal court, you have the judge, you have the defence, and [00:17:50] then you have the prosecution. And what the prosecution have to do is paint the defendant [00:17:55] as the worst person possible, throw as much shit as they can, and some [00:18:00] of it will stick. And then the defence and then the judge makes the judgement. Now [00:18:05] I forgot that what the GDC they have two parts to that [00:18:10] equation. They are the judge as well as the prosecution. So I’m [00:18:15] reading this letter telling me you failed to blah, you failed to blah. And [00:18:20] I’m thinking, oh my God, this is already the the judgement. This is the judge [00:18:25] hat of the GDC saying these things. And, and I remember getting letters [00:18:30] and like my heart would be pounding as I’m reading them and just getting through them. It was a [00:18:35] really, really horrible, horrible time. And I remember it dragged on for for about a year. [00:18:40]

Payman Langroudi: A year, yeah, over a scale and polish.

Alif Moosajee: Scale and polish. What happened was I [00:18:45] was working in a practice. I was an associate in a satellite practice. And what [00:18:50] they had done was they’d had a it was I mean, it wasn’t good marketing stunt in a sense that they [00:18:55] did check-ups that were cheaper than the NHS. But then the in [00:19:00] the treatment, I mean, it was not expensive. It was like not bad, not terribly like out [00:19:05] of line with NHS prices. But what they’d done was they’d decided to say on the marketing that we are [00:19:10] cheaper than the NHS. Now obviously that is misleading [00:19:15] in hindsight. I mean, I wasn’t really involved in the marketing, it wasn’t my job. I rock up and I do the dentistry. [00:19:20] The problem is that because the management were non registrants, [00:19:25] then what would happen is the buck ends up falling with whoever [00:19:30] the buck can fall with. And the GDC are going to go after the person who they [00:19:35] can. Yeah, I learned all of this. It didn’t, you know, Combobulated there’s no point [00:19:40] in the GDC trying to go after a non registrant. They’ve got absolutely no power over that person. [00:19:45] Whereas if you are a registrant, they’ve got all the power over you.

Payman Langroudi: Was it a corporate.

Alif Moosajee: Uh [00:19:50] it wasn’t actually a corporate. It was well I suppose like a mini one because there was a clinical guy, but he [00:19:55] had his own practice somewhere else. And then it was is his uncle that was managing [00:20:00] this practice. And I think between them, they were able to submit enough evidence to say that it [00:20:05] was a registrant who was, you know, part and parcel of it. But I [00:20:10] realised when everybody went into survival mode to try and shift blame elsewhere, [00:20:15] in the end, the blame fell on me for this misleading thing. [00:20:20] So what had turned from a scale and polish? Because we know what GDC like. They are [00:20:25] ferocious investigators. So what I mean by that, I that, I think, is in medicine with the GMC, [00:20:30] if the patient makes a complaint about broken ankle not treated [00:20:35] properly, the whole of the investigation is around that treatment and.

Payman Langroudi: That [00:20:40] is limited.

Alif Moosajee: It’s limited. Whereas what the GDC do is that they will [00:20:45] look at the initial thing and then they will look through everything else, [00:20:50] uh, and anything that is they deem as wrongdoing, then they will go for. [00:20:55] And that’s sometimes challenging.

Payman Langroudi: So what happened?

Alif Moosajee: Uh, in the end? Uh, yeah. [00:21:00] I mean, it got dark because this business about being misleading, then [00:21:05] they talk about there’s there’s one tier which is misleading. Then there’s another deliberately misleading. [00:21:10] And then the last one is dishonest. Now, if you’re found dishonest, then [00:21:15] your professional, uh, your I suppose your ability to, uh, [00:21:20] be professional is brought into disrepute, and you can be [00:21:25] struck off. So this was.

Payman Langroudi: It was.

Alif Moosajee: Like, shit, this has got out of hand here. [00:21:30] But once the wheels are in motion, it’s a problem. In the end, in the end, [00:21:35] in the end. Thank God it all went away. I think they looked at some of what? [00:21:40] What was presented to them. They’d actually assessed it incorrectly. [00:21:45] Like they’d said. There was no medical history when there was a medical history. So, you know, they painted me in a very [00:21:50] poor light because they just hadn’t bothered to look at the pack properly. Um, so in the end it [00:21:55] went away. And then what I reflected from it was that [00:22:00] if I can fly or try to fly under the radar as [00:22:05] much as that, and then get shafted and go all [00:22:10] the way to the GDC, then what am I doing? I’m wasting my life. [00:22:15] I’m wasting my career. Yeah, I’m going to put myself out there. Let’s do some stuff. [00:22:20]

Payman Langroudi: So that literally sort of propelled you.

Alif Moosajee: Absolutely. So within within about a year I bought [00:22:25] a practice. I didn’t buy that little satellite practice. I thought, if I’m going to buy a practice, I’ll buy a big practice. [00:22:30] So I found this practice. Um, for whatever reason, nobody else wanted it because [00:22:35] I think they were all really scared at that time. Oakdale. Yeah. I think everybody wanted NHS. They [00:22:40] were all vested in this guaranteed paycheque. They were all scared that if they buy a practice. [00:22:45]

Payman Langroudi: Was it existing as a private.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. Yeah, it was a it was a referral practice actually. [00:22:50]

Payman Langroudi: Back then was quite rare.

Alif Moosajee: It was rare.

Payman Langroudi: How many years ago are we talking.

Alif Moosajee: Uh, we talked about 12 years ago now. So 2014, [00:22:55] I bought it.

Payman Langroudi: But yeah. Yeah, still much rarer than today.

Alif Moosajee: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:23:00]

Alif Moosajee: Um, and so I think a lot of people. Yeah, we’re just worried that the principal who was there, he was [00:23:05] quite a personality as well. I think they’re all scared that once he retired or left, then, then they’d lose all the goodwill. [00:23:10] I thought, no, that’s my mission, to give them something to stay for. Um, [00:23:15] so I bought this practice. I decided to learn to do implants. [00:23:20] Uh, got really heavily into digital, um, when I had, uh, started a study club [00:23:25] at the practice.

Payman Langroudi: What was it when you bought it? How many chairs? How many patients.

Alif Moosajee: Was, uh, five. [00:23:30] Yeah, five. Surgery practice. Physically, uh, but it was probably about [00:23:35] two and a half surgeries in the sense that everybody was part time. Dentists were coming in and doing two days [00:23:40] a week or three days a week. So it was very bitty. And Bobby, there was sort [00:23:45] of general dentistry happening.

Payman Langroudi: Are you up for talking about numbers? Yeah. Like what did you pay for it? [00:23:50]

Alif Moosajee: I paid um. Six. [00:23:55] No, no, no, it was seven 5750. I [00:24:00] think it was maybe a bit more. 780, actually. So.

Payman Langroudi: And how did you raise it? Did you how much [00:24:05] did you put in yourself and how much did you borrow? And, uh, which I’m sure is different these days to those days. [00:24:10] But but what was it like, do you remember yourself having to save up heavily to, to [00:24:15] to in order to do this?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. I had to save.

Payman Langroudi: And was it was it in your head you were always going to buy a practice. [00:24:20] No it wasn’t.

Alif Moosajee: No. It wasn’t. Um, before [00:24:25] that GDC thing, I had resigned. I’m not going to do implants, you know, [00:24:30] like you have these conversations in your mind. So I don’t think implants are for me. Yeah, I like [00:24:35] doing ortho. Yeah. So I’ll go for a bit of ortho. So six months smiles and stuff like [00:24:40] that. Um, and I’m not going to own a practice, so I don’t want the hassle of it. Yeah, I’ll be happy as an associate, [00:24:45] so I’d kind of cut those things off. And it was whether whether it’s, you [00:24:50] know, the, the ultimate rebound, uh, from this horrible relationship, you know, [00:24:55] like, sometimes you talk to people.

Payman Langroudi: Script themselves though, isn’t it? Because I did exactly [00:25:00] the same thing with regards to implants. And I remember when I qualified, it was just like it [00:25:05] was just the start of implants. And it would have been a smart move to go into implants, [00:25:10] but I thought, not for me. Yes. It’s such a weird thing. Yeah. No, I by the way, I don’t think I would have been [00:25:15] the best implantologist. But but you know, one person does that and the other person [00:25:20] says, oh, I like the idea of being a surgeon or something. Yeah, it’s just the idea of being a surgeon, [00:25:25] because the actual, you know, learning of it is a long step by step process. [00:25:30] Mentors all the things you have to do to learn implants. Right. And and neither person [00:25:35] really knows what they’re getting into. Yes, but we script ourselves. [00:25:40] Yeah. Like you’d scripted yourself as a as an associate forever. Yeah. And then it took [00:25:45] this event for you to say, now I’m going to own a practice. Yeah. And thank goodness you did own a practice, [00:25:50] right? Because you feels like you thrived in in Oakdale. [00:25:55]

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. It’s it’s nice. It’s become I realise it’s tough, but [00:26:00] it’s a blessing and and it’s what it allows you to become as a [00:26:05] person, to overcome all of those challenges. You grow. Yeah, yeah. And now [00:26:10] if people ask me questions or they say, how do I do this? I know, I know the answer [00:26:15] because I’ve been there. I’ve had to figure it out. So So I realised that I [00:26:20] think I was probably after an easy life once upon a time. And now [00:26:25] I realise that the secret is not to hope that your problems [00:26:30] are small, but to hope that you will always be bigger than whatever problem comes to you. [00:26:35] Because that’s that’s the measure of you as a person, I guess.

Payman Langroudi: So where did you grow up, Lester? [00:26:40]

Alif Moosajee: Uh, no, I grew up in Slough. Oh, yeah? So, uh, parents are still there. In [00:26:45] fact, they’re in the process of moving at the moment.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s your connection to? Is Romana from.

Alif Moosajee: Romana is from Leicester. [00:26:50] Um, but I was already in the Midlands because I studied in Birmingham. I stayed, uh, my [00:26:55] first job was in Wolverhampton, so I already knew I liked the Midlands. Um, and then I [00:27:00] went to visit Leicester a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s rewind. Why dentistry?

Alif Moosajee: Uh, yeah, a work experience. [00:27:05] I actually, I remember it well, it was year ten, um, and we had two [00:27:10] weeks of work experience. And at that point, as any good Indian boy should be, I was either [00:27:15] going to be a doctor or a lawyer. And I remember they got me one week in a magistrates [00:27:20] court court just to see what law was all about. And then they couldn’t find me [00:27:25] a doctor, so. Oh, he probably won’t notice. Stick him in a dental practice instead. [00:27:30] Um, but I absolutely loved it.

Payman Langroudi: Who is your parent? Your school. School? School?

Alif Moosajee: School. [00:27:35]

Payman Langroudi: And you loved watching a dentist?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. And I know it’s weird, but what I really [00:27:40] liked was the fact that people came in broken or sick, and the dentist did [00:27:45] some, like, magic, and everything was all right again, and I got hooked on [00:27:50] that. I thought it was brilliant. Um, and then, yeah, I sort of geared everything [00:27:55] up to. What were.

Payman Langroudi: You.

Alif Moosajee: Liking.

Payman Langroudi: In dental school? I mean, um, outside of the academic. [00:28:00]

Alif Moosajee: Outside the academic. I fell into, quote unquote, the wrong crowd. [00:28:05] Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So the party crowd.

Alif Moosajee: The party crowd? Yeah. But no, my friends [00:28:10] are amazing. And we’re still, like, get together.

Payman Langroudi: With dentists or dentists.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, most of them are dentists. [00:28:15] Yeah. And we were. We were. I suppose we were quite well known, uh, throughout the dental school and [00:28:20] the uni, as well as being. Yeah. As being those guys. Um, but yeah. [00:28:25]

Payman Langroudi: What was it like first time away from home, sort of that thing?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. It was, I [00:28:30] wouldn’t say that I was, I was put on a very aggressive leash by my parents. [00:28:35] I think it was probably self perpetuated.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Alif Moosajee: There was something [00:28:40] I picked up which, which was, which really interested me. It was how, you know, often [00:28:45] as children, in order to ensure that we have attention [00:28:50] from our parents, we will often carve an identity out that’s [00:28:55] different from our siblings. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s a survival instinct. Now, my brother happened to [00:29:00] be the rebellious child, so that one was already taken.

Payman Langroudi: You’re the oldest.

Alif Moosajee: No, I’m I’m I’m [00:29:05] the younger.

Payman Langroudi: Of the two of you.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, just two of us. Um. And so I was always the. [00:29:10] I was really a good kid, honestly. I was just, like, proper. Um, but. And I’d come [00:29:15] home, I’d do my homework and all the rest. So I feel like some of this, um, being [00:29:20] a good boy, it wasn’t because my parents made me. It was just that that was who I was. And that’s the identity that I’d [00:29:25] created.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you’ve only got one one child, but, um, apparently billionaires [00:29:30] are often fourth kids.

Alif Moosajee: Correct.

Payman Langroudi: For that very reason. For that reason, the [00:29:35] other roles are taken.

Alif Moosajee: And they have to think.

Payman Langroudi: And think outside the box. And then and but I see it happening [00:29:40] with, with my kids, you know, you script one who does well at an exam, you go, well, he’s the clever kid, [00:29:45] right. And then you positively feedback that. And then the other one might say something funny and you [00:29:50] go, oh well, she’s the funny one. Yeah, yeah. And you and you say it to them and, and that’s the [00:29:55] person they end up becoming for that reason. You know, it’s a funny thing. It’s a weird thing. [00:30:00]

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. And I think you’re right. I think, uh, they call it the. Is it the Pygmalion effect whereby [00:30:05] if you are told, oh, you’re the clever one in the class, then you have to [00:30:10] live up to that. And, yeah, you’re pigeonholed. That’s why I tried to be really careful about these [00:30:15] labels. I don’t mind if my daughter Annie, does something stupid, but I would never call her [00:30:20] a stupid person because otherwise she will live up to being while we’re on.

Payman Langroudi: While we’re on [00:30:25] fatherhood. Number one, would you recommend for her to become a dentist? [00:30:30]

Alif Moosajee: Um, okay. I mean, we’ve had we’ve had this chat. She doesn’t want to be, by the way, but [00:30:35] I would love her to be. And I think it’s because I have had, you know, [00:30:40] a very a really good career, actually. I mean, the start was weird, but, [00:30:45] um, this part of it is, is really fun. It’s varied. I get to do [00:30:50] lots of different things, like, you know, I’m in control of what I want to do. So I feel like I could [00:30:55] give her the recipe for how to be, you know, very happy as a dentist. Um, [00:31:00] and also from a super selfish reason I’d, I’d love to have a buddy to go [00:31:05] on courses with and, you know, do all of those things.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, plenty of people sit here in front of me and say, I [00:31:10] don’t want my kids to go into dentistry. Why do you think that is?

Alif Moosajee: It is hard. It’s tough, [00:31:15] but I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Everything worthwhile is.

Alif Moosajee: Tough. Everything worthwhile is tough. And I think [00:31:20] that’s that’s where I would go with that. Because I feel like the greatest gift it’s given me is to [00:31:25] make me the person I am. As we just mentioned, as a result of the spots it’s put me in. [00:31:30] Um, and I feel like I’d be denying her, uh, that opportunity [00:31:35] if I told her not to do it for that reason. However, her her skills are different [00:31:40] to mine. She’s a performer, dancer, singer. A very good singer. And so, um. [00:31:45] Yeah, she’s already involved in stuff in our theatre in Leicester. The curve. [00:31:50] So, uh, so she wants to pursue that.

Payman Langroudi: So you bought the practice? It [00:31:55] was a private practice. Private practices tend to have that issue with not enough patients. [00:32:00] Generally, that tends to be the big issue with private practices. So this was a well established. [00:32:05] You said the guy was a bit of a character.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So were there plenty of patients?

Alif Moosajee: So there were patients, [00:32:10] but we still had to grow. There was there was no doubt that we would have [00:32:15] to. And the reason I knew that was a key point was that a [00:32:20] lot of the revenue did come from the referrals that he generated. [00:32:25] Um, and.

Payman Langroudi: Did he stay on or anything?

Alif Moosajee: And he did. He did. I think he was unhappy [00:32:30] because he did not like being the owner of a practice. He was also [00:32:35] doing general dentistry as well as some implant stuff. So what I did was I had a nice [00:32:40] chat with him and I said, look, how can I make your life better? So obviously the running [00:32:45] of the practice, we took off and that was going to happen anyway. But I also removed the general dentistry, [00:32:50] reduced his hours a bit. Not in a malicious way, but just it is what it is. And he was happy to do that. [00:32:55] And he ended up just doing implants. So the guy’s coming in and he’s living his best life. [00:33:00] So instead of staying on for the two years, I think he agreed. He ended up staying on [00:33:05] for seven.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Alif Moosajee: And he ended up being a real asset because he’s [00:33:10] generating his own goodwill. I’m not having to market to bring new patients to him, because it’s [00:33:15] the relationships that he’s formed by doing such a good job for the dentists that refer. [00:33:20] And, you know, to his credit, he didn’t hold back. He taught me [00:33:25] everything he knew. So I was lucky enough to go on the formal implant [00:33:30] courses and learn different opinions from different people. Then I come in and often [00:33:35] of a morning, I’d go into his surgery. I’d sit with him, talk to him about what I’d just learned, [00:33:40] and he’d tell me how much bullshit it was. Well, in the nicest [00:33:45] possible way. But no, he would. He would agree with what he thought was right. He would also add to what [00:33:50] he could.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Alif Moosajee: And at the time when I was learning implants, it was very safe, you know, [00:33:55] take the tooth out, let it heal forever. Put the implant. But he was already well into immediacy. [00:34:00] He was he was very good at it. Um, and I realised for [00:34:05] a number of different reasons that immediate implants is probably the way I feel anyway, [00:34:10] that we look after patients best. So I was then again very clear about [00:34:15] how I wanted to practice my implant dentistry. Um, and [00:34:20] it’s it’s really I think it set me up in a good way to look after patients.

Payman Langroudi: So nice [00:34:25] to have a mentor there. Like, literally in the same building.

Alif Moosajee: In the same building.

Payman Langroudi: And I bet it was probably [00:34:30] nice that you could go to him. Regarding the running of the practice, like systems were in place [00:34:35] and all of that. Yeah, but what about.

Alif Moosajee: The I’ll be honest with you. No, no, because I think that, as I mentioned, [00:34:40] I think the running of the practice was something he didn’t enjoy doing. Yeah, he didn’t do very well. [00:34:45] And I don’t mean that in a nasty way. I think by his own admission, he said, that’s the one [00:34:50] bit I want to get rid of. So, so it really was down to room and I to really [00:34:55] peel back everything and try to understand what [00:35:00] is the point of what we’re doing in this bit, and what’s the point of this and write [00:35:05] it all for ourselves.

Payman Langroudi: So was there any issues with like the the team [00:35:10] sort of in terms of the the old boss is still there and he didn’t do it [00:35:15] like that and yeah, sort of.

Alif Moosajee: Maybe a little, little bit. I mean he obviously had his team [00:35:20] who he liked. And when I came in. So I again I’m this like humble [00:35:25] young I don’t like uh what do they call it. Um. You [00:35:30] know, when you don’t believe that you belong in a place, [00:35:35] uh.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like, um.

Alif Moosajee: I’ll, it’ll come to me, but. [00:35:40] Yeah, but. Yeah, I didn’t think I was worthy of being the principal of this place, [00:35:45] so I’m all like, right, I better learn, I better grow into this role and all the rest of it. And then we [00:35:50] start looking at, these girls are lazy. These girls are not cleaning. These girls are more [00:35:55] interested in having their coffee whenever they want and telling me how busy they are. And I don’t [00:36:00] mean to. I mean, maybe I’m being cruel, but they believed they were busy, but [00:36:05] they were just busy doing the wrong things. So it became apparent that we had to [00:36:10] make some changes. So I still remember giving a meeting at the start and believing it. [00:36:15] You know, we’re here now. We’re taking over. I don’t want to make any changes. I’m just happy with the way [00:36:20] things are. We’re going to carry on. And then I thought, oh my God, what have I said? You know, what have I done? This [00:36:25] is terrible. Um, so I remember having another meeting telling them, no, [00:36:30] we want to be the best practice. At that point, I was still small. We’re going to be the best practice [00:36:35] in Leicester. All right. Okay. But let’s go for that, at least as [00:36:40] a start. Um, and, uh, yeah, I remember thinking we’ve got to make some [00:36:45] changes. So we explained to our team what was acceptable and what [00:36:50] wasn’t. Um, and some of them, I don’t think they liked the sound of it. [00:36:55] So over time, when reality set in that that it is going to be like that, then [00:37:00] some of them decided to leave, and I remember there being a dentist. [00:37:05] She was quite a senior dentist, and she was making things difficult [00:37:10] because every time we had a new initiative or a new idea, she would always [00:37:15] challenge it. And it was, uh, got to a point where it was unacceptable. Now it was [00:37:20] a bit of a dragon and like, everybody was a bit scared and tiptoed around her and just gave her the nurse she [00:37:25] wanted let her work where she wanted, you know, those kind of things.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Alif Moosajee: So I had a chat with [00:37:30] her, and I said to her, look, I don’t think it’s going to work. Um, so I asked her to leave, and [00:37:35] I think when that happened, everybody really, you [00:37:40] know, they they set up and they took notice, um, and I didn’t do it for that.

Payman Langroudi: No, [00:37:45] it’s interesting that sometimes that one person can really ruin the [00:37:50] sort of clarity of of the room. Right. But if as [00:37:55] soon as you say something, someone immediately comes in and jumps in and says, yes, but whatever. Yes, [00:38:00] that’s one thing. But also, as you’re kind of alluding to, the act of asking [00:38:05] someone like that to leave sometimes puts everyone else on on sort [00:38:10] of report in a way. Right. You know, the decisiveness, I mean, [00:38:15] in the end, what is a leader? Yeah. In the end, the leader has to has to sort of set [00:38:20] the tone, um, for, for for what? The direction that [00:38:25] you’re going to go. Right. And I think.

Alif Moosajee: You’re absolutely right, because I remember custodian of the [00:38:30] vision that was that was something that I read somewhere. And I felt that that at one [00:38:35] point was the most important part of my whole job was to keep [00:38:40] what I had as my vision clear in my own mind and work out. Am I taking a step [00:38:45] towards it by doing this, or am I going away?

Payman Langroudi: And was your wife Romana [00:38:50] there from the from the get go from the beginning, or.

Alif Moosajee: The intention was that she wasn’t [00:38:55] meant to be.

Payman Langroudi: But you soon realised.

Alif Moosajee: I realised I needed her, and, uh. [00:39:00] And I still need her now. She’s incredible.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing how many practices there’s a husband and wife [00:39:05] sort of situation going on.

Alif Moosajee: And I wonder if how how many of that is necessity as well? [00:39:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Alif Moosajee: Because.

Payman Langroudi: You.

Alif Moosajee: Need someone trusted to.

Payman Langroudi: But is there, is there a manager as well. [00:39:15]

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So we’ve got layers of management in the sense that we have, uh, [00:39:20] girls who are very senior and manage the nurses and they look after [00:39:25] the nurses and that’s it. Then we have, uh, the, our lead, who is [00:39:30] more to do with compliance and making sure like associate salaries and schedules [00:39:35] and audits and all of these things are done. And then we’ve got a front of house team [00:39:40] and again, they are managed themselves. They will then feed into Romana. Um, [00:39:45] and if there are problems classically patient complaints [00:39:50] or, you know, it’s not even a complaint as much as it’s just some, even a 1% [00:39:55] dissatisfaction in a Then I’ll be told. And then I’ll make that call. And it doesn’t [00:40:00] matter which dentist it is, I like to be the one to iron those things out. Um, and [00:40:05] I and I don’t mind doing it because I think if you nip it in the bud and get to it the [00:40:10] right time, you can often enhance the relationship you have with that patient. Of course, by having [00:40:15] acted on it in an appropriate way.

Payman Langroudi: They become the best patients.

Alif Moosajee: Absolutely. They become evangelists.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [00:40:20] let’s talk about, for instance, that patient that you should have given the money back to. Yes. Who ended [00:40:25] up with the GDC thing? When I was a dentist, I used to give money back all the time. Yeah, yeah, like [00:40:30] you say, a 1% problem. I’d give money back, um, even if it wasn’t my fault. [00:40:35] Although I do agree with you. Some things are grating, and and blackmail is particularly [00:40:40] one of the ones that grates the most.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, I think the way that he wrote that letter, it probably did rub [00:40:45] me up the wrong way.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. And I think these days it’s more I’ll give you a bad review or something. Quite is [00:40:50] the is the way people go with that. Yeah. I don’t like that either. I don’t like that either.

Alif Moosajee: They know how to [00:40:55] hurt us. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I don’t like. Hey, do me this deal or I’ll go to a competitor. [00:41:00] I don’t even like that one. Yeah. Yeah. Which in business is a bit, like, weird. Yeah. [00:41:05]

Alif Moosajee: No, but I agree with you, I don’t. I like to be master of my own [00:41:10] destiny, and I don’t. I don’t want to be the person who, like, felt like they had to beg [00:41:15] for this or bend backwards for something. Yeah, I’m with you on that.

Payman Langroudi: So? [00:41:20] So then did it look the way it looked when I went there? Was that you guys to sort of change the [00:41:25] way it looked?

Alif Moosajee: Uh, if it was nice, it was probably us. Yeah, but no. [00:41:30] And joking aside, when we bought it, it looked like an NHS practice. Oh, okay. Um, even. [00:41:35]

Payman Langroudi: Though it was private.

Alif Moosajee: Even though it was private and there was, uh, one surgery. This [00:41:40] is the principal. The outgoing principal. His surgery was done to his taste. [00:41:45] Nice. Different to mine, but it’s a nice surgery. Um, so now [00:41:50] it’s funny. When you go, there’s six rooms which all look very similar. Black and white and everything. [00:41:55] And then there’s one room which is just different. I’ve just not had the heart to refurb because it’s perfectly functional. [00:42:00] Um, it just looks.

Payman Langroudi: So did you do it up in stages, or did you do it up right at the beginning, or how did [00:42:05] you do it?

Alif Moosajee: Uh, we were strategic, I suppose, in the way we did it. It had to be done in stages, [00:42:10] budgetary, to be honest, but also just disruption. Um, and I know a lot of people [00:42:15] go in and they do their surgery first, but I thought about it, uh, I [00:42:20] wanted to do the waiting room first because I thought, that’s the biggest bang for your buck. That’s when patients will [00:42:25] all enjoy it and see it and actually be there long enough to notice [00:42:30] what’s happened. Um, and then we had at that point there were four, five [00:42:35] surgeries, so four dental surgeries and one hygiene surgery. So I did the hygiene surgery [00:42:40] first because I thought then all patients would get the benefit of that rather than a [00:42:45] quarter of the patients if I just did one Dental. And then after that we started doing the Dental. [00:42:50] And then we also did a study club, a study area on the top floor, which is where you came to [00:42:55] to see beautiful also. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: For how many years were you reinvesting? [00:43:00] Do you feel like you’re still.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. I mean, we still are, but I’d say [00:43:05] to to a much lesser degree of percentage or whatever. But yeah, I would say it’s probably a good five, [00:43:10] five, six years we lived a very sort of meagre life. And [00:43:15] it was okay because as a family, we were so invested in the vision that, [00:43:20] you know, you just get on board and it becomes almost like a hobby, [00:43:25] I suppose, to to improve the place and look at what’s the next thing that we can do. And [00:43:30] once you’ve got a, um, you know, good people around you as well and a good team of people who you can say, [00:43:35] right, I want that. That’s what I would like it to be. And then the guy just gets on with it and he [00:43:40] employs the team and gets all the people in to do. And yeah, I mean that that [00:43:45] that helps. That helps an awful lot. And it left Romana and I with the headspace then to [00:43:50] to ensure that the team were on board, that the culture was right, that our [00:43:55] relationship with patients was framed correctly. So just control [00:44:00] the narrative in as many ways as possible. Make sure dentists are coming on board [00:44:05] that are aligned with what we want to achieve. Yeah, all of those things.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [00:44:10] the positioning? I mean, in Leicester, is it near the top of the sort of price [00:44:15] bracket or.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, I wouldn’t say that we’re hugely more expensive [00:44:20] than the other private practices. I’d say we’re yeah, there’s a reasonable amount of parity there. [00:44:25] But we do aim to. Yeah I suppose, knock the socks off the patients that come [00:44:30] and ours is a place where. Well, this is what I will always say to the staff. I say that [00:44:35] when people come, they will they can’t, they can’t judge how crisp my margins are. [00:44:40] They can’t judge where my implants place. Very true. Right. But what they can judge is how they [00:44:45] feel when they are there, and they will judge everything that they can. [00:44:50] And I might have even been you that said this, that, that they like. They’ll judge the toilets. [00:44:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah, they’ll judge the dust in the corner.

Payman Langroudi: And certainly one of my things. Yeah. [00:45:00] You know, when I, when I go to practices I have a quick, you know, on the train or whatever. You have [00:45:05] a quick look on the website. Have a quick look on the social. Yeah. Um, [00:45:10] I read through the dentist profiles. I read through much of it, actually, obviously the whitening [00:45:15] bit I’m interested in. Um, but but there where I really go is, you know, the Google reviews. [00:45:20] Yes. And you can look at reviews in a sort of a qualitative way [00:45:25] or a quantitative way. Right. How many and all that. But what I quite enjoy is, [00:45:30] you know, the at the top of the Google reviews, there’s the words that are mentioned the most. [00:45:35] Yes. And there’s one word I look for and it’s not often mentioned, [00:45:40] but I always make a bet with myself. If I see that word mentioned a lot, then when [00:45:45] I get there, I kind of know what it’s going to. It’s going to be a good practice. Yes. And the word is feel. Feel just [00:45:50] what you said. Yeah. And you know, it feel tends to come up a lot.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the way they make me feel. They make you [00:45:55] feel really calm. This sort of thing. Yeah. Um, it’s such an important point, and it’s [00:46:00] one you can’t even measure. Yeah. It’s difficult. I mean, other than this Google review. Yeah. [00:46:05] Yeah. I think some of the most important things in business, let [00:46:10] alone a service business like dentistry, are immeasurable. Yes. You know, and [00:46:15] on the other hand, you’ll get accountants telling you to measure everything. Kpis. Yeah. You [00:46:20] know, we just went with the meeting and, you know, add the about how many, how much the [00:46:25] CPM cost per thousand eyeballs that see your ad. Right. And [00:46:30] then and then obviously how many of those comments are training. How many of those become users? [00:46:35] How many of those become big users? How many of those become regional centres? It was all it [00:46:40] was all numbers, right. And I often think like the relationship of [00:46:45] the practice with our sales team, or the way someone feels when they open [00:46:50] one of our boxes. It’s way more important than all of this stuff. Yeah, [00:46:55] but it’s so, so difficult to measure that.

Alif Moosajee: Yes, and I think you’re right. We are obsessed. [00:47:00] Well, we can only measure what we can measure. And you’re right. It skews the [00:47:05] importance of the things that I agree with you. I’m probably not really that important. [00:47:10] It’s like, I think some people get fixated on money, but it’s because it’s easy to [00:47:15] measure how rich you are because it’s a number. It’s very difficult to measure how happy [00:47:20] you are.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Alif Moosajee: That’s right. Or how healthy you are. These things are harder to quantify.

Payman Langroudi: Apparently, [00:47:25] Porsche has a thing. Yeah, that is impossible to measure, but it’s the reason why everyone buys a Porsche. [00:47:30] Really? It’s to do with the accurate. As you turn the steering wheel, the accuracy that it it’s got, [00:47:35] it’s got it’s got a word for it. It’s like, I don’t know, tracking steering tracking or something. And it’s the reason [00:47:40] why people buy Porsches but it’s impossible to measure it. Is that right? You know, you can measure a 0 to [00:47:45] 60. Yeah, yeah. And 0 to 60 on a Ferrari. Might be faster than on a Porsche. Yeah, but it’s [00:47:50] the way this Porsche goes round the corner. Responsive.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, yeah, I love that.

Payman Langroudi: And I [00:47:55] think it’s such an interesting thing to actually pinpoint some of those things in a practice and [00:48:00] build in some of those things. And, you know, it’s nice and easy [00:48:05] in a, in a small situation where you’re on site. Yes. [00:48:10] To say to everyone, look, we just want to make everyone feel great, make people feel [00:48:15] like they’re they’re coming to your home or something. That’s a nice way of saying it to staff. Yeah. And [00:48:20] make it feel memorable. Um, but then sometimes you go to a massive, [00:48:25] I don’t know, I don’t shop at Louis Vuitton, but if I did, I’m sure [00:48:30] if I walked into Louis Vuitton in, um, Mumbai or in wherever, [00:48:35] Chicago, both of those shops will make you feel $1 million. [00:48:40] Yeah. Yeah. And so what I’m saying is that building in some things, and we’ve got [00:48:45] such an amazing sort of scope for it, right? You know, every single human who’s going to walk into this practice, [00:48:50] you know, you know, they’ve got appointments. Yeah. You could take it to the nth [00:48:55] degree and really look these people up and find out who they are and then know what their faces look like. [00:49:00] And on the way in, open the door. We’ve been expecting you. Here’s your favourite. Whatever. You could really [00:49:05] take it as far as you want. Yeah. And so what I’m saying is there’s a lot of scope in [00:49:10] dentistry. I agree for these, whatever the word is, I’m sure Chris Barrett has a word for this [00:49:15] non-essential essentials or something.

Alif Moosajee: But there is there’s a there’s a super personalisation [00:49:20] that we can strive for isn’t it. And I think personalised [00:49:25] care is is probably the minimum standard these days. What I mean by that, I [00:49:30] think I did a short video on this once because I do these YouTube smiling dentist videos. Um, [00:49:35] and I remember going to see a GP about a problem that I had. I think it was [00:49:40] like a, I felt like there was a blocked sinus or something like this. And what they said was take the [00:49:45] decongestant for six weeks and then if it hasn’t cleared, come back again. And I was like, [00:49:50] okay, I’ll level with you, doc. I’m a dentist. And what we taught and what I try [00:49:55] and do is I try and understand what the problem is first, and then I treat it. I [00:50:00] don’t just treat with decongestant exactly and hope it goes away, [00:50:05] because I feel like I’ve probably done a disservice. Is there a way that we can’t go for an endoscopy? Because [00:50:10] if there is a block, it’s an actual blockage there. This decongestant ain’t going to do much, mate. And, [00:50:15] um, I realised when I looked into it more that when you are looking [00:50:20] at the statistics of how many people will get better as [00:50:25] a result of, uh, nasal blockage, just using a decongestant, [00:50:30] it’s enough to justify that approach. When you look at the statistics [00:50:35] of it all. But that is population Elation medicine, isn’t [00:50:40] it? And that’s very different to looking somebody in the whites of the eyes and saying for [00:50:45] you, I know it’s wrong, but the study said I should, so I’m going to [00:50:50] do this. I think somewhere we’ve missed the point of what we’re doing. I [00:50:55] think we should really listen to that other human being.

Payman Langroudi: The GP is not even comparable [00:51:00] to private dentistry, I think you know. True. I mean, I don’t know about your GP, man. Mine [00:51:05] keeps me waiting 40 minutes.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Routinely. Yeah. Routinely.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. It’s a it’s a [00:51:10] power trip.

Payman Langroudi: Well.

Alif Moosajee: I think they’re drowning, aren’t they?

Payman Langroudi: I don’t think they’re doing it on purpose, [00:51:15] but but but the massive difference, insomuch as the receptionist doesn’t look up, by [00:51:20] the way, some, some dental practices that can happen to the doctor doesn’t even look up. He’s [00:51:25] constantly typing. Yeah, yeah. And there’s a little sign on the wall saying one problem at [00:51:30] a time or something like as if as if, you know, like, like my problem with my, uh, [00:51:35] diabetes might not be affecting my or my that’s falling off.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. [00:51:40]

Payman Langroudi: Ridiculous idea. Yeah. Um, but but your point is absolutely right. Your point is absolutely [00:51:45] right. Um, what I was kind of going with is what tactics [00:51:50] do you use outside of saying to people take care of people? I mean, are there [00:51:55] tactics that you use? Are there sort of, um, surprise and delight type things? I mean, you’re [00:52:00] a Phillips Cole, right? Yeah. Hurts. Really hurts me.

Alif Moosajee: But I’m just [00:52:05] delighted I was still interesting enough for you to invite me.

[TRANSITION]: We’re friends.

Payman Langroudi: We’re friends. Um, [00:52:10] I’ve had the competitive composite courses on, you know, [00:52:15] um, but you’re a Phillips. When I was a dentist, um, my boss didn’t like this, [00:52:20] so I ended up having to do it myself. I used to surprise and delight. Come out with a Sonicare. Yeah. [00:52:25]

Alif Moosajee: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Surprise and delight. And it was. It was. I had them in my in my. I talked to the rep, [00:52:30] and I said, I’m going to do this. I’m not going to sell them. I’m giving them out for free. Yeah. [00:52:35] So do me a deal. I’d buy 20 at a time. Nice and surprise and delight a patient [00:52:40] with it at the right moment to start with. It was like, um, [00:52:45] you know, big case. I used to back then to fit the veneers. Yeah. People [00:52:50] are happy. Here’s a free electric toothbrush. But sometimes [00:52:55] I’d give it to someone just where we had a just a great conversation. Almost like a, like a talk [00:53:00] trigger thing where you want to you want to impact one person a lot. [00:53:05] They hadn’t spent the cost of the toothbrush. Yeah, they’d come for an examination, [00:53:10] but we’d had a great conversation, and I and the nurse would sort of make [00:53:15] a little thing of it. Oh, you gave it to you or something? Yeah, but that patient [00:53:20] would be then. Just like. Like with you forever. Yeah. So that was a tactic I used [00:53:25] to use as a as a dentist. As an associate. Yeah. But do you have tactics? Things you do.

Alif Moosajee: I [00:53:30] can’t say that we have like, it’s great that you’ve thought of it because I think that’s probably going [00:53:35] to be something I’m gonna try and think.

Payman Langroudi: Neil Gerrard has a thing. If anyone is ever kept waiting. [00:53:40] I mean, maybe, maybe you have a rule in your practice. No one is kept waiting.

[TRANSITION]: No, but we do [00:53:45] that.

Alif Moosajee: If someone is kept waiting or if we if it’s obvious that we’ve dropped the ball somewhere, then we’ll try and heal the [00:53:50] hurt.

Payman Langroudi: Yes, Neil Gerrard has a thing. He has a cupboard with stuff in it. Yeah, yeah. And [00:53:55] it’s like chocolates, champagnes, vouchers. And for him, if anyone’s [00:54:00] ever kept waiting they, they hand out one of those things but.

[TRANSITION]: And we, we.

Alif Moosajee: Have things [00:54:05] for that. And then I’ve got that book that I wrote which is something that sits in the surgery. So [00:54:10] it’s.

Payman Langroudi: A book or.

[TRANSITION]: Is.

Alif Moosajee: It. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So it’s a, the structure of it is that the [00:54:15] chapter headings are the questions that I used to get asked a lot by patients. And then [00:54:20] the body of the chapter is an answer that I hope is palatable to them. [00:54:25] So there’s no jargon. I really worked hard to try and make it as clear the [00:54:30] explanations, um, and I’ll often give that book to patients. And it’s funny you mentioned this. [00:54:35] It’s not always the big cases, but it’s just someone who you’ve had a nice chat with, someone who actually [00:54:40] seems interested. Um, well, look, I’ve got this book and it’s about dentistry. Have [00:54:45] a read of it. And, you know, you seem to. And it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of.

Alif Moosajee: Social.

Payman Langroudi: Proof as well, right? It’s proof [00:54:50] that you are an expert.

Alif Moosajee: I suppose you’ve written a book. It’s like he’s an author. Wow. This [00:54:55] is. But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I get asked this question quite a lot by people starting practices. You know, [00:55:00] they say, what should I do? Right. And I think especially with squats. [00:55:05] Right. You want to be known for something. Yeah. I mean, once [00:55:10] you’ve been around a while, it’s a bit different. Right. But it’s a squat. You want to be known for a [00:55:15] thing. And I think of it a lot. You know, we we used to at every single [00:55:20] touchpoint. We used to say be one guaranteed. Yeah, yeah. Because that was for me [00:55:25] the thing that would spread. Yeah, yeah. And so you need a spreadable story. Yeah, [00:55:30] yeah. And so what should be the spreadable story about a new practice that touches [00:55:35] down somewhere? What should it be? It’s difficult because people say, oh, um, when I asked them, [00:55:40] they said, what is it? What’s what is your I guess it’s a USP.

Alif Moosajee: Usp.

Payman Langroudi: What is your us. And they go, well, you [00:55:45] know, we’re really like personalised care or something. Yeah. But that [00:55:50] story that story is not spreading between patients. Yeah. They’re lovely. Okay. Yeah. [00:55:55] All well and good. But I think the lowest hanging fruit. Yeah. Painless. Yeah. [00:56:00] It’s because half the population is scared. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you [00:56:05] can you can say to all your associates, listen, we only give painless injections here. Yeah. And it’s [00:56:10] a slower injection. There’s lots of topical and all that. Yeah. I think that’s the lowest hanging fruit. Yeah. If [00:56:15] you. If you open. And that. At every touchpoint. Painless. I’d call it painless dentistry. [00:56:20] If the easiest. Yeah. Yeah. The easiest move would be to do that. Right. But [00:56:25] you need something. You need. You need a story to spread.

Alif Moosajee: I think I love that. I remember being on [00:56:30] a on a course where they spoke about this. They said the problem with the word painless is it’s [00:56:35] got the word pain in it. True. So you have to the patient has to think of pain first. [00:56:40] So. So I quite like the word comfortable. True. Yeah. Comfy. Comfy is [00:56:45] a nice word. Yeah. And I think I did audit once at the number of times I used the word pop in. [00:56:50] I’m just gonna. I’m just gonna pop you back now.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Alif Moosajee: Just pop a little bit of local in.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. [00:56:55] As soon as I became aware of that. But these, um, the reason I mentioned comfy and pop is they’re [00:57:00] very soft words as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Gentle Dental. Right.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: My my buddies, [00:57:05] um, they’ve they’ve got a chain.

Alif Moosajee: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Gentle.

Alif Moosajee: Dental. Yeah, yeah, yeah, [00:57:10] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful practice. I don’t know if you’ve seen them. Croydon.

Alif Moosajee: Okay. I’ve definitely. I’ve heard, I’ve heard of [00:57:15] them, but I’ve not seen the.

Payman Langroudi: Planning practices, man. Now, tell me this. You seem [00:57:20] to have done such a great job with this one. Why didn’t you go to two [00:57:25] and three and 27?

Alif Moosajee: I so Romano and I just had this [00:57:30] thing. And the way we’ve kind of encapsulated there’s one Harrods and there’s one Oakdale. [00:57:35] And I think we were probably a bit worried that if we went in the [00:57:40] business enough.

Payman Langroudi: Yourself.

Alif Moosajee: Ourselves, then it would lose its touch. Um, [00:57:45] and I guess.

Payman Langroudi: Did you consider it?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, [00:57:50] yeah, we thought about getting another site, and then I think at the time we thought rather than doing that, why [00:57:55] don’t we expand what we have? And that’s when we turned we I think we’d maxed out the five chairs. [00:58:00] So I mentioned that we were two and a half to begin with. Um, we filled up the five so [00:58:05] that they’re actually properly running. And then we put two more in. And then I spoke [00:58:10] to somebody else and they said, look, you’ve done the right thing there, because if you’ve got another site, you’d have had the whole [00:58:15] overhead of another place as 100%.

Payman Langroudi: But amazing advice. Yeah, that sweat [00:58:20] the one, the one fully before going to two. Yeah, yeah. And it’s [00:58:25] almost a vanity metric isn’t it, to say 2 or 3?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, but.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but if you if [00:58:30] you have a practice running 8 to 8, seven days a week. Yes. And you’re [00:58:35] from, from a building perspective, completely maxed out. [00:58:40] Yeah. Then, okay, I think think about a second practice. But if you don’t have that. [00:58:45] Yeah. Get to that. Yeah. Yeah I can think of one in Sheffield that’s massively [00:58:50] successful start up as in a squat. And they were talking about [00:58:55] the second practice. I was looking around thinking it was just so much space for growth here. You know like there’s [00:59:00] this huge area back there. I was like how about there? Why can’t you do something with that? And they were [00:59:05] like, yeah, but we thought second just there is a there is a sort of vanity I agree, I [00:59:10] agree. So you looked at it, you thought about it, you thought, well grow this first and then you got to a point of [00:59:15] contentment.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I think what also happened is that we realised [00:59:20] that, okay, the business should not be the [00:59:25] end point. In fact, if we’re thinking about our life holistically.

Payman Langroudi: To live, live to work. [00:59:30]

Alif Moosajee: Absolutely. Yeah. So what the business really needs to do now is just service us. Um, [00:59:35] and and not. I don’t just mean financial. It’s still a reason to wake up in the morning. [00:59:40] It’s a reason to be challenged, not a reason to be challenged. But it’s a it’s a vehicle [00:59:45] for challenge. Um, it’s a vehicle for me to go and go in and do some implants and practice [00:59:50] my hobby. Um, so it serves a lot of purposes, and I think [00:59:55] at the right level as well, that still allows me freedom to do to [01:00:00] do other things. So then I thought, yeah, then if I want a second one then, then what what [01:00:05] what is it that I can’t buy now? And again, it’s not all about money, but I [01:00:10] really think money is very, very important when you don’t have it. Yeah, it’s probably the most important thing, [01:00:15] but. But when you have enough to be able to go on holiday where you want, where what [01:00:20] you want, drive what you want, then you start thinking, What am I going to [01:00:25] give in order to have more money that I don’t need to spend?

Payman Langroudi: But [01:00:30] I had a guy here yesterday, um, and I was discussing this very [01:00:35] thing. Yeah. And my own issues with the difference between happiness and [01:00:40] pleasure. Yes. And joy and contentment. [01:00:45] Yes. I see contentment in. It’s almost a separate box to those other three, even [01:00:50] though those three are different. Right. Pleasure and joy are different things. Yeah. And I was [01:00:55] I was discussing the tension between contentment and [01:01:00] progress.

Alif Moosajee: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And we certainly have it in our culture. It’s almost like if someone [01:01:05] says they’re content then others, some others think it’s [01:01:10] not. Not ambitious.

Alif Moosajee: Correct.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. And is it possible to be content [01:01:15] and ambitious at the same time. Is it possible? I think so. Yeah. Well, this cat [01:01:20] who was sitting in front of me, 24 practices, by the way. Yeah, yeah. Um, he was saying that like [01:01:25] he was saying, look, I always want the next thing. Yeah, and that’s a good thing. Yeah. Yeah. And I was [01:01:30] trying to say, look, it’s. Everything is a good thing and a bad thing. Yeah. You know, there [01:01:35] isn’t something that’s only good. Every good thing has a bad, bad edge to [01:01:40] it. And the other way around sometimes as well. Yeah. But I’m interested in. How did you get to this? Were you [01:01:45] always that cat? Were you always the kind of guy who found it very easy to be content? Or did [01:01:50] you have to buy a Porsche before you could get to that point, or what was it?

Alif Moosajee: It’s a [01:01:55] great. That’s a brilliant question, because yes, I think I did. I had some notion I didn’t I don’t think I even [01:02:00] wrote them down, but I had some notional things in my.

Payman Langroudi: These receptors in your brain that [01:02:05] needed filling.

Alif Moosajee: They needed.

Payman Langroudi: Filling.

Alif Moosajee: Absolutely. And, and yeah. And it’s so funny you mention that. [01:02:10] But when I had a Porsche a Porsche. Yeah I thought great. You know, that’s one of the things [01:02:15] ticked off that is.

Payman Langroudi: Which one did you get.

Alif Moosajee: So I got the, the the Taycan. That was [01:02:20] about just over four years ago. And then I’ve got a different one now. I’ve got this. So, you [01:02:25] know the the electric Macan. Oh it’s nice. It’s like a 4×4. Lovely, lovely. [01:02:30] I’m really quite. I quite like that one, actually. Um, and then, uh, so there [01:02:35] were these things, and I actually remember having, like, a mini crisis where we were [01:02:40] where the last piece in the puzzle we were living in, like, a it was a rented house. It’s [01:02:45] a house we bought to put on rent while we were waiting for our home to be renovated. [01:02:50] And the renovation took obviously, you know, standard story took longer than we thought, [01:02:55] more expensive than we thought. Same, same. Um, but so. So two years [01:03:00] later, we finally move into this house and I’m thinking, oh my God. And I’m auditing [01:03:05] my life. Right. So I’m now I always wanted to teach, so I’m [01:03:10] doing lectures. I, um, I wanted to, to, to move away from general [01:03:15] dentistry, just doing implants part week working own a practice. Live [01:03:20] in a nice house. Drive a nice car. Wear nice clothes. You know all of those things, right? [01:03:25] Tick tick tick tick. I’ve done them all. That. That [01:03:30] means I’m going to die now. And I don’t know how I got this, but it’s like this is the happy ending. And [01:03:35] the next thing that’s going to happen, the credits are going to roll. So I got I got really worried. I freaked [01:03:40] out a bit.

Payman Langroudi: Not to mention none of those things actually give you the thing that you’re you’re after, right? [01:03:45] You know, that sort of buyer’s remorse as soon as you [01:03:50] say you like the car, right? But but are you a happier cat in this car than you were in the non [01:03:55] Porsche?

Alif Moosajee: No, probably not, but I arrived there in style.

Payman Langroudi: But go on, go on. So [01:04:00] then, was it really contentment came then?

Alif Moosajee: No, I think then what happened was [01:04:05] I, um. Right. So actually that was the time when I decided to go on this Tony [01:04:10] Robbins.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Alif Moosajee: Business one.

Payman Langroudi: The one in America.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. And I think the reason [01:04:15] was that I, I realised I reflected back in my early life and thought I had a bit [01:04:20] of a crisis just when I qualified. You know, all that stuff going on about how I didn’t feel like [01:04:25] I was. It was imposter syndrome. That was the one.

Payman Langroudi: That we’re looking for.

Alif Moosajee: That was before. And that’s [01:04:30] definitely what I had when I started and qualified. And I thought, great, I can diagnose a patient, understand the problem. [01:04:35] But you asked me to drill the cavity. I’m not sure I’ll put it in the right place. You know, that kind of stuff. So [01:04:40] going on Tony Robbins then really helped. I remember why actually, because [01:04:45] I had I had what we call now a fixed mindset. I didn’t know that was [01:04:50] a thing.

Payman Langroudi: As opposed to a growth.

Alif Moosajee: As opposed to a growth mindset. I only learned the labels later in life. [01:04:55] Yeah. Um, and so that’s why I remember thinking at that time, um, right. [01:05:00] So God has blessed me with an amazing brain, but he’s cursed me with shit hands. So that’s [01:05:05] just my life, right? That’s the the pay off, if you like. Um, I didn’t [01:05:10] realise that if you just actually try. And if you. If you take that stupid [01:05:15] inner a monologue out of your mind and say, I’m not always going to be. I just need [01:05:20] to practice. I just need to get good at this. So when I learned that that was actually an option, and [01:05:25] it’s one of the things I mentioned about Tony Robbins, you realise you have choices. You realise you have the ability [01:05:30] to do things. Um, yeah. That’s when I started getting good. And I’m right now, you know, [01:05:35] I can do what I want. To be honest. Um, but yeah. So I remember [01:05:40] that definitely being a thing, that Tony Robbins was a turning point at that point in my life. [01:05:45] So I wondered if I needed to reach out to Tony now to to to find out what my next [01:05:50] stage was. And yeah, I think I went down the wrong [01:05:55] path, actually, because the business mastery, I came back and I thought, right, I’m [01:06:00] going to shake up Oakdale and I’m going to put all these things in place and do all these things. And [01:06:05] I realised that actually what I was doing was piece by piece, um, [01:06:10] undoing a lot of the good work that myself, but probably more [01:06:15] so.

Alif Moosajee: Ramana had done. Or as that’s a great word organically. Yeah. [01:06:20] And and I realised I, we were losing touch and actually we are. Turnover [01:06:25] dropped that. Yeah. Now I don’t know if it was all my endeavours. I think it was also a tough year [01:06:30] financially. It was a last year. Um, but it became apparent to me that [01:06:35] it wasn’t the right move. So I started undoing some of the things that [01:06:40] I’d put in, and we went back to being Oakdale again, which was great. Um, but what I [01:06:45] did realise was that, um, I think my view of the world had become very [01:06:50] myopic, and so I thought I had clocked everything game over. [01:06:55] But actually it was just one part of what was really a bigger piece. [01:07:00] Um, there’s still health to look at optimising that. [01:07:05] There’s still, uh, emotional well-being, you know, these kind of things to look at. So there’s a [01:07:10] bigger world and and I’m not anywhere near as far, uh, towards [01:07:15] where I would like to be in these different facets. And in fact, it’s one of the reasons [01:07:20] I’ve reasons I’ve decided because I went I kind of moved away from teaching for a bit because I wanted to spend [01:07:25] a bit more time with the family and also spend a bit more time in the practice and in the business. [01:07:30] Um, and now that I’m kind of freeing myself from that burden, um, I’m [01:07:35] starting to do more teaching again, and I realise I missed it. You know, I really. [01:07:40]

Payman Langroudi: Really love teaching is fun.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, it’s one of it’s a wonderful thing to do.

Payman Langroudi: It’s more fun [01:07:45] than than patients, I think. And it’s it’s, uh. Well, well, it’s [01:07:50] only when you have lots of patients to worry about that teaching is more fun than patients, right? I kind of miss patients [01:07:55] sometimes. You know, I miss the conversations with patients. Yeah. Varied [01:08:00] conversations. Right? Yes. That’s that’s that’s the nice thing about it. And seeing them every six months. [01:08:05] Yeah. Um, but I don’t know, even when you think about that, I think about the [01:08:10] particular patients I remember the most, you know, maybe 30 in [01:08:15] total. Yeah. And, you know, maybe you’re seeing 300 or 500 for 30, [01:08:20] you know, ones that stick in your head. Yeah. Um, but that’s interesting [01:08:25] what you’re saying there. Um, let’s get to the darker part of [01:08:30] the pod.

Alif Moosajee: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Outside of that one episode with the GDC, [01:08:35] what stands out to you as the darkest sort of moment? [01:08:40]

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, that’s a good question. So I [01:08:45] think that, yeah, there have been there have been a few. So there’ve been some really [01:08:50] dark business days because of the.

Payman Langroudi: Running out of money. Like [01:08:55] that.

Alif Moosajee: Money. Thankfully, there was always enough in the account to [01:09:00] to keep us going. But yeah, I mean, it was tight at times, especially when, um, [01:09:05] when we started the practice and, you know, you’re used to a certain lifestyle as an associate [01:09:10] and a certain cash flow is an associate. Um, I still remember, and I talk to [01:09:15] new principals about this. If I’m trying to advise them, I say, look, whatever your financial barometer is, get [01:09:20] ready for a massive reset, because the first time you sign that check for paying the [01:09:25] wages, yeah, yeah, you will probably spend more in one transaction than you ever [01:09:30] did before. Absolutely. I still remember when I was an associate, we [01:09:35] went and we bought a TV. It was one of these Bang and Olufsen TVs, and I think we [01:09:40] financed it for like it’s an eight grand or ten grand TV or whatever. Um, and [01:09:45] that was I mean, that was the biggest purchase I remember, most certainly most extravagant [01:09:50] purchase I remember making my heart was like pounding when I was like, [01:09:55] I’m am I ready to sign up for this thing? And, I mean, that was a long time [01:10:00] before I was a principal. And then, yeah, just like ten grand for this, 20 grand for that. It just [01:10:05] it just goes out. So I think more than anything else that has changed my relationship with [01:10:10] money. Um, but yeah, thankfully, no. Money has never been the darkest thing. I [01:10:15] think it’s when we’ve had perhaps. And this this may resonate with other principles. [01:10:20] Sometimes what will happen is that you will find that you have a crop of staff, [01:10:25] and the staff are doing fine. Everything’s good. And then [01:10:30] there is some dissatisfaction amongst them. And then what will happen is [01:10:35] one, perhaps only one will become annoyed about something, but they become [01:10:40] what I like to call a, well, poisoner. Can I quote a guy? Really brilliant guy. Colin [01:10:45] Campbell, he’s a dentist in Nottingham.

Payman Langroudi: Nottingham?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, yeah. Amazing guy. And he really, really [01:10:50] helped me. I remember going on an oral surgery course when we were learning to take our wisdom teeth.

Payman Langroudi: His super duper place. [01:10:55]

Alif Moosajee: No, I think this was before he had that. Yeah. But I remember going in and ragging [01:11:00] these teeth out so that I could go and sit with him and talk to him about [01:11:05] business, because the guy is clever when it comes to that. He understands these things and he [01:11:10] gave me a masterclass, 1 to 1 masterclass on those things when I really needed. [01:11:15] It was just before I bought that practice. So he’s the guy who gave me that term, the well poisoner. [01:11:20] Now, anyway, you get this one. Well, poisoner ruins the narrative for others. They [01:11:25] start to notice things that they never did before because there was never a problem for [01:11:30] them. But this one person. Have you noticed how they always do this? Or they always do that? And. [01:11:35] Oh yeah, I do notice it now. Oh, God. This is perhaps this place isn’t as good a place to work as [01:11:40] I thought it was. And before you know it, you have maybe three, four, five people hand [01:11:45] their notice in all together. That was tough. That was tough. [01:11:50] Because now we had to somehow work out how to make this work. [01:11:55]

Payman Langroudi: And did you question yourself as, okay, you can blame the person, but [01:12:00] did you blame yourself to some extent as well?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, I think I think it’s natural to do [01:12:05] that.

Payman Langroudi: You have.

Alif Moosajee: To. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I think, I think it’s not only natural, but it’s [01:12:10] the right move. Yeah. So that then your, your day or your month [01:12:15] or your year is depending on you rather than other people.

Alif Moosajee: I love that I think you’re absolutely [01:12:20] right. The more you abdicate responsibility, the more you abdicate [01:12:25] control and your own feeling of destiny. Yeah, I definitely agree with that. [01:12:30] Yeah. Um, but the thing is, what I’ve realised, though now, is I think [01:12:35] we, we try and be very, very selective at the interview process as well [01:12:40] because we are not an easy practice to work at. And I level [01:12:45] with people, I say, I want this to be the best place for a patient to come, but in order [01:12:50] to provide that level to the patient, we’ve got to work hard. You know, we’ve got to do [01:12:55] not only the clinical stuff. Well, we’ve do the, um, the other touchy feely stuff [01:13:00] really, really well as well as we said, the feelings.

Payman Langroudi: Do you hire the clinicians? Obviously.

Alif Moosajee: Yes. [01:13:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And do you think you’re good at telling, like who’s going to be good and who’s not? Like, [01:13:10] how long will it take you. You’re not sure.

Alif Moosajee: Mixed. Yeah. Um, I have had [01:13:15] I’ve had some people who’ve started and then after a week or two, it’s then that it becomes apparent. And [01:13:20] it’s because sometimes people are really good at putting their talking. Yeah. Good [01:13:25] at talking and putting, presenting the part of themselves that they want to present.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re good at firing.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. [01:13:30]

Payman Langroudi: You fire quite quickly.

Alif Moosajee: Very quickly. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, did you have to learn that? [01:13:35]

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Were you very slow at firing before? And now you’ve learnt to be quicker?

Alif Moosajee: Yes, I [01:13:40] think so. I think what what we have to understand is that firing someone is not fun. [01:13:45] I don’t enjoy the conversation. I don’t enjoy the effect that it’s going to have on [01:13:50] that person’s life. They’ve probably given notice somewhere else. They’ve come to me in good faith and now I’m [01:13:55] telling them it’s not going to work. Yeah, so it’s upheaval for them as well. But I also realise [01:14:00] how hard I’ve worked on creating a reputation for the practice that [01:14:05] I own. And I’m not going to have somebody destroy it because they’re just [01:14:10] unsuitable. So yes, now I realise that of those two, the pain [01:14:15] of my practice burning is way too much for me to [01:14:20] pussy out of having a difficult chat with somebody.

Payman Langroudi: You know, when people talk about, [01:14:25] um, a business as a family, it’s unhelpful in [01:14:30] that sense.

Alif Moosajee: I.

Payman Langroudi: Agree. Yeah. The pro sports team. Much more helpful [01:14:35] way of looking. I love that much more helpful. Yes, a pro sports team. No one’s keeping anyone on a in Man [01:14:40] United because, you know, they’re worried about their feelings or something. Yeah, yeah. [01:14:45] Um, and and as much as I love the idea, when you ask our team [01:14:50] what’s it like to work at enlightened? Oh, it feels like a big family, much as I adore that that [01:14:55] that point. It’s not that. Yeah, and I’ve had to [01:15:00] learn that myself the hard way. You know, in as much as I thought, hey, we’re [01:15:05] a family, but but it’s not the best thing for the business anyway. Yeah. Yeah. And [01:15:10] your job as the leader is to keep the business going, right? Yeah.

Alif Moosajee: And we keep the business going [01:15:15] by looking after patients. I’ve never, ever felt that there has to [01:15:20] be. I mean, this is a point sometimes, isn’t it? You talk to some dentists and they feel like there is a tug, [01:15:25] that they can either be good businessmen or they can be good clinicians. And I don’t [01:15:30] believe that at all. I think the one they go hand in hand. And I think if you are looking [01:15:35] after people really well, you’re adding value to their lives, then the universe will [01:15:40] just sort it out that you will be rewarded for that. So I [01:15:45] don’t really care as much about the money coming in as I do about looking for opportunities to add [01:15:50] value to people and look for ways of looking after them better. And I [01:15:55] think the reason I do that, and I’m quite I’m almost distant from the numbers. Um, [01:16:00] I think the team, they like that because how can a nurse [01:16:05] get on board with lining my pockets? If [01:16:10] you know, if I’m that. If I’m that principle.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not inspirational, is it?

Alif Moosajee: It can’t be, isn’t [01:16:15] it? If all I’m thinking about is how do I improve margins here? How do I improve profit there? [01:16:20] The rest of my team are going to be left behind. I have to live that world on my own. Whereas [01:16:25] if I care about patient care, that’s what these girls want as well. [01:16:30] Because let’s face it, nurses are not paid the most amount of money in the world. So often they’re not. That’s [01:16:35] not what juices them. Making a difference is what juices them. And if they [01:16:40] work in a place where that’s what the whole thing is set up to do, then then that alignment [01:16:45] comes often quite easily.

Payman Langroudi: A very good point. It’s a [01:16:50] very good I mean, I only recently realised that the best way to even inspire [01:16:55] myself, let alone my team is to think about the [01:17:00] joy we bring to people because of their whiter teeth. Right. Yeah. And [01:17:05] I didn’t used to think of it that way, actually. I sometimes question myself, you know. Why? Only servicing [01:17:10] the rich, you know, and feel guilty about that or something, you know, like, um. [01:17:15] But but certainly the best way to talk about anything like that is in the way [01:17:20] you’re talking. Yeah. You know, to to make a difference for sure.

Alif Moosajee: And I [01:17:25] know earlier we touched on the question about the best lecture I ever went to.

Payman Langroudi: What was. [01:17:30]

Alif Moosajee: It? But so it was it was a DSD lecture by Christian Christian coachman. [01:17:35]

Payman Langroudi: Good lecturer.

Alif Moosajee: Great lecturer, great storyteller. And there were two bits of it that stood [01:17:40] out. And the one comes to this point really well. He goes on about [01:17:45] how we sell the best product in the whole world as dentists. [01:17:50] And that’s a smile. And if we think about what a smile means and what not, [01:17:55] having a smile also means if you’re not confident to smile at people, it can. It can really [01:18:00] change a person’s outlook. Outlook. Yeah, their interaction with others, [01:18:05] their ability to have a relationship to earn money, all of these things like they go [01:18:10] to an interview, they’re not going to get, you know, a great job. So the power we have to be able [01:18:15] to do good is is massive. And if I had the choice of my patients [01:18:20] spending money on a holiday or spending money on Coca-Cola or crap food or something, [01:18:25] or spending it on something that will improve them in a way that I know [01:18:30] they will say, thank you, doctor, you know, bless you, thank you. Afterwards. [01:18:35] You know, it’s a brilliant thing to be part of.

Payman Langroudi: I do want to talk [01:18:40] some clinical stuff rather than only management stuff. Right. Because I do, and [01:18:45] I want to kind of wrap it up in your kind of clinical era. [01:18:50] Yeah, I kind of let’s talk implants here because you can’t do implants without some stuff going wrong? [01:18:55] Absolutely. So, implant wise, what was the thing that happened? Adverse thing [01:19:00] that happened that taught you about implantology? I mean, what the sort of the. [01:19:05] Aha.

Alif Moosajee: Yes. Mine was, was quite a bad one, actually. Um, [01:19:10] I unfortunately drilled right into the mental nerve for a patient, [01:19:15] which was not obviously, nobody wants that. It was the third implant [01:19:20] I ever did. Now, at this stage, I was. I had a mentor. So it’s the guy I bought the practice from. [01:19:25] But, you know, he again, he’s a fantastic surgeon. But [01:19:30] when it came to mentorship, he loves to teach and to explain. But I think he found it [01:19:35] frustrating being over the shoulder. He’s the kind of guy who would just give me that. I’ll just [01:19:40] do it and he’d do it in less than half the time. So I remember the first one being quite stressful. Um, [01:19:45] the second one was a bit better, and this was the third one now. And now he’s thinking, [01:19:50] look, if you’ve got this man, I’m going to just walk off and I’m going to wander off somewhere else. I didn’t have [01:19:55] it, so I remember using it was Straumann implants. Their system is that they’ve [01:20:00] got long drill with the laser lines on it, and I just lost. I lost [01:20:05] my bearings when I was drilling. So I ended up drilling a lot deeper than [01:20:10] I should. I caused this injury.

Payman Langroudi: In the right direction.

Alif Moosajee: But deeper but deeper [01:20:15] but deeper. Exactly. Um, and and I didn’t. I didn’t even probably [01:20:20] know that I did it. It was only afterwards it dawned on me that. Hang on a second, look at the measurement. [01:20:25] What was the measurement that I drilled compared to the implant I’ve just taken out of the packet that looks [01:20:30] a bit shorter than what.

Payman Langroudi: Was it like, a lapse in thinking or you didn’t know how [01:20:35] far to drill? Or isn’t there a marker?

Alif Moosajee: So yeah, so so there isn’t a stop [01:20:40] or there wasn’t a stop when I know probably now. Yeah. Well, I [01:20:45] remember when it happened and I then I reviewed the patient and [01:20:50] you know, it was it was numb and it didn’t seem like it was getting better over [01:20:55] time. So whatever hope we both had. I mean, I tell you, the patient wants it to [01:21:00] get better. Bloody hell. You want to get it? Want it to get better as well?

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:21:05] was the numbness just the the the front. One side?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. One side, one side. It was like. Yeah. [01:21:10] Basically like in that.

Payman Langroudi: Situation, there’s no there’s no question of removing the implant to hope that things [01:21:15] get better or is there.

Alif Moosajee: I think I probably didn’t place the implant at the time. Yeah. I [01:21:20] didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Place it.

Alif Moosajee: Just it was just the drill. The drill doing.

Payman Langroudi: So you did realise you’d done the wrong thing. [01:21:25]

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, God. I realised in there. And then I did tell the patient at the time [01:21:30] and I realised that that, you know, you, it’s [01:21:35] almost for you as a person that if you can recognise that you’ve made [01:21:40] an error and be open about it at the time, you recognise it as soon as you [01:21:45] do, then yes. It’s not nice and it’s a horrible chat [01:21:50] to have, but it’s a lot better than having withheld that from somebody [01:21:55] and then having to come clean afterwards. That’s, I think, much worse in [01:22:00] so many ways.

Payman Langroudi: Did you know the patient for years before?

Alif Moosajee: Not for years, but she is a patient [01:22:05] that was like a general patient of mine. And at that time, I mean, I was new to [01:22:10] the practice. So it’s it’s Oakdale. I’ve taken over. I’m starting to see these patients. This [01:22:15] particular patient needs an implant. So I’ve decided I’m going to do it but under supervision. So [01:22:20] that’s kind of the story of that one, maybe 1 or 2. What happens in. So, [01:22:25] uh, in the end, she was all right. She’s a bit of a dragon as a person. [01:22:30]

Payman Langroudi: She was all right with it. She was okay. Better.

Alif Moosajee: No, it.

Payman Langroudi: Just never.

Alif Moosajee: Got better. It never got better. [01:22:35] So to this day, uh, so I don’t see it, but I saw her for a long time as my general [01:22:40] patient. And I would always ask her how it was, and she would always say, well, it’s a little bit [01:22:45] different from last time or it’s not no different from last time, but she was [01:22:50] really like cool person in the sense that she just accepted that it had happened.

Payman Langroudi: Up [01:22:55] to which tooth were you replacing?

Alif Moosajee: It would have been the lower right 4 or 5, [01:23:00] or.

Payman Langroudi: Around the point where it comes out at that point.

Alif Moosajee: Exactly, exactly. So probably, yeah. [01:23:05] Just before it’s come out.

Payman Langroudi: Just before it’s come out.

Alif Moosajee: It’s still central in the jaw and yeah, easy for that [01:23:10] to happen.

Payman Langroudi: So I all the hundreds of implants you’ve placed after is that like [01:23:15] front and centre in your mind? Yeah. It’s interesting that is for you because that [01:23:20] happened to you. It happened now. Now is an interesting question is if someone listens [01:23:25] to this, will it be front and centre? The whole point of the question is so we can learn from each other’s mistakes. Right. [01:23:30]

Alif Moosajee: But I made a huge change after that because, I mean, you can imagine the thought [01:23:35] process in my mind. You know, I’ve done three implants again. Yeah. How do I stop it? Am [01:23:40] I just not right for implants? Was my gut feeling of not doing implants? Was that actually the right [01:23:45] call?

Payman Langroudi: So all of.

Alif Moosajee: These things happened. Um, and so then I started thinking about [01:23:50] how do I mitigate this? So I started looking a lot into guided, and [01:23:55] I, and I did think notionally that guided would be for me, even when I bought the practice. [01:24:00] Um, I thought that I really liked the idea of that being a stress [01:24:05] free. Part of the process of putting the implant in is that I’m kind of assured it’s going [01:24:10] to go roughly in the right place. Um, and so then I committed to making sure that [01:24:15] every single one I did after that was guided.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Alif Moosajee: And that has been the change that I’ve [01:24:20] made. And I’m right. I’m not happy that that’s happened. I need to absolutely [01:24:25] underline it.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s a silver lining.

Alif Moosajee: But a silver lining came from it. And I like [01:24:30] to think it’s the right silver lining because I think and I don’t mean it in an arrogant way, but I feel like I [01:24:35] do right by people who have implants with me. And it would have been a shame if I’d given [01:24:40] up, um, because I think there are a lot of people who are better off for me. Having continued, [01:24:45] uh, and being able to provide that service for people.

Payman Langroudi: I like.

Alif Moosajee: That. So I think, uh, but [01:24:50] but that has been a boon for me. Um, I think I think, uh, [01:24:55] I mean, talk, talk for a long time about guides and not guides. And I know there is still some debate about [01:25:00] whether we should learn how to put things in freehand, but I’d probably say the antithesis. [01:25:05] Why would you want to make it overly hard for yourself, when at that time [01:25:10] I wasn’t really very confident as a surgeon. So, you know, just cutting and raising the flap and [01:25:15] all of that stuff. Oh, big effort, big effort. And now that’s up. I’m [01:25:20] going to start the process. Oh, God. So make the implant place [01:25:25] itself. And it just means that you can free up head space for all the other bits, like making sure [01:25:30] the keratinised tissue is managed well, making sure the bone grafting is done well, [01:25:35] but the implant just goes in.

Payman Langroudi: Bone grafting as well.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Normally, um, so [01:25:40] I really like doing immediate implants as I mentioned. So there’s, often bone grafting, uh, [01:25:45] you know, uh, part and parcel of that process. Yeah. During it. [01:25:50] And there’s always a way to augment and make things a bit better if you put bone in the right place. So. [01:25:55] So yeah, I’m not you know, I’m quite happy to do that. I like to.

Payman Langroudi: What stands out as like [01:26:00] a happy days or events in this journey. Like, I’m sure [01:26:05] there’s loads. But what stands out when you think of it like, at what point did you think, [01:26:10] wow, yeah, I’ve really done good there.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, I remember [01:26:15] there being a day where I had, um, so I’ve been working [01:26:20] towards a few clinical goals, and I think there was a day that maybe I did [01:26:25] a cerec and then I felt really good about that. I had taken [01:26:30] a scan on an implant, I did a bit of Botox, and then I did, I did something [01:26:35] else, and it was like I just recognised that when I looked at my day that [01:26:40] me Five years before that, who had decided not to do implants? Facial [01:26:45] aesthetics. Not going to do this, this, this and this. And I was and it was a bit of ortho in that day I think. And [01:26:50] and I thought, wow, you know, I’ve and I’m the principal of this place and I’ve [01:26:55] come a long way to just have the privilege to have done a [01:27:00] day like that.

Payman Langroudi: That must feel good. Like a super generalist as well, right? Like [01:27:05] when people talk about specialists a lot, but but I had, um. Do you know Martin Adriani? [01:27:10] Yeah. Martin.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, I know him. Really? Yeah. Lovely guy, but they’re both lovely.

Payman Langroudi: Super [01:27:15] generalist. Yeah. Like, I see the standard of his whitening is unbelievable, [01:27:20] let alone everything else that he does. He does all his own end his own implants, bone [01:27:25] grafts, sinus lifts, the whole thing. Cerec. They were very early on. Cerec. Yeah. [01:27:30] And there’s a lot to be said for a super generalist, you know, because it’s it’s a it’s a varied day.

Alif Moosajee: Yes. [01:27:35]

Payman Langroudi: Um, that said, there’s a lot to be said for specialising too, you know, That [01:27:40] when, when when young dentists ask me what should I do? And [01:27:45] you know, I just say, do anything. Do anything. Well, yeah.

Alif Moosajee: Do anything.

Payman Langroudi: Well, yeah.

Alif Moosajee: And [01:27:50] anything you do is everything you do as well.

Payman Langroudi: But but also anything you’re good at you’ll enjoy. Right. [01:27:55] It’s, you know, like, there isn’t a I’m sure there is, but it’s not like, oh, [01:28:00] if you become a super periodontist, you’re more suited to that [01:28:05] than if you become a super endodontist. You’re more I’m a kind of person who’s suited [01:28:10] to end a rather than. It’s whichever one you’re, you’re an expert at, you’ll enjoy. Yeah. [01:28:15] You know so and so but but but then a generalist as [01:28:20] well you know, it’s that it’s kind of like that being a pillar of that community in [01:28:25] a general practice. General practice. Yeah. And then everyone you’re seeing [01:28:30] in a general way, it’s a whole different thing to a specialist, a visiting specialist, you [01:28:35] know, that sort of thing.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah I agree.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve come to the end of our time. I’m going to end with with the usual questions. [01:28:40] Fantasy dinner party.

Alif Moosajee: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. Three guests.

Alif Moosajee: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive? Who [01:28:45] are you having?

Alif Moosajee: So we mentioned Tony Robbins.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Alif Moosajee: Um, I think this [01:28:50] I could so much I could learn from him which I’d love to. Um, the other one is, is, is a [01:28:55] funny one. I’ve developed a guilty pleasure recently on Netflix. They’ve started showing WrestleMania [01:29:00] and, you know, this WWE stuff. Um, so I think the Rock is a [01:29:05] really interesting person, and I think that there was a parallel with dentistry that I [01:29:10] thought about. They talk in, in wrestling about, you know, this, uh, it’s [01:29:15] obviously it’s fake and, you know, all the rest of it, but there’s a word for it. They call it kayfabe. So [01:29:20] kayfabe. Yeah. So if you are, um, in character then, [01:29:25] then you are, uh, you are performing and you’re presenting [01:29:30] what you want the audience to see. You’re presenting that to them. Yeah. And I saw [01:29:35] some parallels between that and dentistry, whereby we and we touched on this before we [01:29:40] went on air. But how sometimes we present ourselves to the patient as the all knowing God [01:29:45] who will look after everything. And what I’ve tried to explain [01:29:50] to patients is that there is stuff that we are very good at doing, [01:29:55] but there are sometimes still question marks about a diagnosis, for example, [01:30:00] or whether this treatment is going to be 100% successful. And what I’ve tried [01:30:05] to do is, again, absolve some of the stress of my own life by just [01:30:10] being honest with this person. Yeah. And if you can bring them on board [01:30:15] and just explain things in a really nice way. So again, I don’t need to sell [01:30:20] anything that I don’t think is in the right interest of the patient. I just want to provide them with the options [01:30:25] of things that I think will be good. And what that means is I can have a really open [01:30:30] and honest conversation.

Payman Langroudi: Conversation. Right.

Alif Moosajee: Human conversation. Exactly. Educate them [01:30:35] a little bit to the level they need to be educated at to make the decision about [01:30:40] that particular field of dentistry, and then let them make the decision that’s right for them. Explain [01:30:45] risks so that if something happens, you can say, well, look, we did mention that something [01:30:50] like that could happen. By the way, I sometimes have risks that I’ve not mentioned before and I [01:30:55] will sit them down. You know, I’m sorry I didn’t mention that. I promise I did not see that coming. [01:31:00] And you open yourself up humbly and in a human way. [01:31:05]

Payman Langroudi: And that vulnerability is really important and that the way you’re saying it, but also, you know, [01:31:10] the saying, I don’t know, you know, so important sometimes.

Alif Moosajee: So.

Payman Langroudi: Important. You know, I [01:31:15] had a junior young dentist. She has two different mentors, two different [01:31:20] people that she takes cases to. And she was saying, I can’t believe how differently they came [01:31:25] up with these two.

Alif Moosajee: Wow. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The same case.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And you know that’s a [01:31:30] reality, right? These are two super senior people. Yeah. Yeah. Coming [01:31:35] up with two totally different answers to the question.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:31:40] a reality. You know, it’s not changing a clutch on a car, is it? It’s.

Alif Moosajee: Well, absolutely. [01:31:45]

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely. And patients need to know that. Yeah. Lovely. So so.

Alif Moosajee: Breaking kayfabe. [01:31:50] That’s the key third person. Uh, and the third person. Okay, I, uh, I’ve been [01:31:55] invited to to do a lecture for, uh, a teaching [01:32:00] facility, and it’s a lecture of mine that I probably presented about [01:32:05] 4 or 5 years ago. As a result, I’ve had to watch that lecture again. [01:32:10] Um, and I realised I was I was a different person talking about really [01:32:15] different things. So I hope it doesn’t sound super like arrogant, but I thought having [01:32:20] the opportunity to have dinner with myself but at a different time in my life, but [01:32:25] not not not talk and give advice about, oh, it’s going to be okay, it’s going to be. But just [01:32:30] to listen, to watch. Yeah. And just to listen to what’s what was going on then. I [01:32:35] really love that. And I think I’ve been very lucky to have been able to do [01:32:40] webinars and videos and things. So I guess when I’m old and grey and [01:32:45] well have less hair than I have now, which is probably less possible, but I’ll be able to look back and maybe [01:32:50] watch myself at different times and see what conversations I was having [01:32:55] in between the presenting bits.

Payman Langroudi: You know, people keep a diary. Yeah. And they [01:33:00] they say that I’ve never done it myself. But people who keep a journal, they say they look back [01:33:05] on their journal from ten years ago or even ten days ago. Yeah. And the thing that was bothering [01:33:10] them ten days ago, they realised today isn’t anywhere near as bad as it was ten [01:33:15] days ago. But it’s kind of an interesting thing that, um, one of my, um, [01:33:20] dad’s friends was telling me that he’s kept a diary all his life, and he reads the sort [01:33:25] of the 25 year old version of himself.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And he’s now 80. [01:33:30] It’s an interesting thing.

Alif Moosajee: That really.

Payman Langroudi: Is. And we were talking about, you [01:33:35] know, we all had to run away from Iran, right? There was a revolution. And we were discussing what [01:33:40] do you take? Yeah. And I don’t have any photos of me before age seven [01:33:45] because. Because, you know, what do you take. They didn’t take the photos. Yes. Yeah. And this guy was saying how he [01:33:50] took his diaries. You know, it was an important thing to him, you know. Interesting. [01:33:55] Final question. It’s deathbed. Yes. Three pieces of [01:34:00] advice on your deathbed. For your loved ones, for the world.

Alif Moosajee: Um, I think [01:34:05] one would probably be to understand humanity and allow yourself [01:34:10] to be human. So what I mean by that is that we are we are still animals [01:34:15] and we’re tribal animals. We look for differences in others so that we can [01:34:20] stay together as a tribe and fend off others. Um, that’s one behaviour trait. [01:34:25] I mean, there’s so, so many. And not to be so hard on yourself. If [01:34:30] you have perhaps behaved in a way that’s maybe in the light of day. [01:34:35] Not the ideal thing, but it was a very human thing and you can see the humanity in it. [01:34:40] And also, don’t be so harsh on others who you feel have actually under [01:34:45] the reflection of it all. Have they’ve just acted in a very human way at the time? [01:34:50]

Payman Langroudi: Um, I don’t know.

Alif Moosajee: I think another thing is, uh, yeah. [01:34:55] To try and find the fundamental truths in things. Um, what [01:35:00] I mean by that, when I was younger, I used to watch this programme called Q.i. You know, this [01:35:05] one with Steve Stephen Fry. And it was funny how there is so much perceived [01:35:10] wisdom and everyone becomes very comfortable with thinking they know how stuff is. [01:35:15] And then that buzzer goes off and says, well, that’s not the answer at all. Here’s the reality, [01:35:20] real reality of it. So so allow yourself to carry on being curious, [01:35:25] uh, and just to enjoy the process of learning because I think that’s that’s [01:35:30] a wonderful thing. Love that. Yeah. And, um. Yeah. [01:35:35] Try to. Yeah. I think a nice one is just try to do something [01:35:40] that you enjoy. Um, I remember as a child, it would often be that, you know, if there’s [01:35:45] ten things and you’re good at six and not so good at four, you’d often spend [01:35:50] all your effort. And I think that was the mentality I was brought up with. Spend all your effort and energy getting [01:35:55] those four things up as good as the others. But I think now it’s. [01:36:00]

Payman Langroudi: Work on your strengths.

Alif Moosajee: Allow to work. Yeah. Allow yourself to work on your strengths.

Payman Langroudi: That with my kids, you know, like, [01:36:05] rather than the weaknesses. Of course, there is a minimum level that you want people to get to. But what about [01:36:10] if I said, you know, you can ask that question that way, the way you just said it. But another [01:36:15] way of answering that question is I didn’t do enough of X in [01:36:20] my life.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you should. What would you say to that thing? I [01:36:25] wish I was more.

Alif Moosajee: I [01:36:30] don’t know that again. That’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Classically [01:36:35] Jim. Go to the gym, for instance.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But that’s ridiculous. But but you know what I mean. Like. Yeah. [01:36:40] Is there something do you wish you were more less risk averse. Do you wish you were [01:36:45] more, um, whatever.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, I, I think that’s that’s a really [01:36:50] good one, actually. You’ve put the words in my mouth there because as I mentioned, I started off my, my [01:36:55] life and my career being such a timorous young man. Um. And [01:37:00] I wish I’d had it sooner. Yeah, absolutely. I think I’d be a lot [01:37:05] further on in my journey than than I am. And I still identify, [01:37:10] you know, they talk about these labels that we have like anxious, avoidant and this kind of thing. [01:37:15] And I still see elements of that in me. And, um, I [01:37:20] find that, you know, when I’m my centred self, I can act and control [01:37:25] who I am. But the moment there’s some stress, then we still turn into that seven [01:37:30] year old, don’t we? And we go back to that that person. And I think that’s that’s [01:37:35] the thing whereby if, if you can identify who [01:37:40] you are and the strengths and the weaknesses that come with it and try [01:37:45] and work on those, on on removing the weaknesses, then then you have a much more useful, [01:37:50] I suppose, personality that just works better.

Payman Langroudi: I feel like you’ve worked on getting [01:37:55] rid of the stress so you don’t have to get back to that person.

Alif Moosajee: But [01:38:00] I think it’s.

Payman Langroudi: A success man, which is success. You know, I.

Alif Moosajee: Didn’t want to. I didn’t [01:38:05] want to have regrets.

Payman Langroudi: What is what is success rate? What is success? Success is how you define it yourself. [01:38:10] Yeah, but if you’re saying that, you know you didn’t want to be this kind of person, when stress [01:38:15] comes along, you become that kind of person. Eliminate stress. Beautiful. Yeah, like that [01:38:20] means don’t open a second or third practice, for instance. Yeah, it’s the right thing to do in that moment. [01:38:25]

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive, massive, uh, massive pleasure having you. Really, really enjoyed [01:38:30] it. It has been a real easy conversation. Thank you. It’s nice. Thanks, man.

Alif Moosajee: I really.

Payman Langroudi: Enjoyed coming [01:38:35] all.

Alif Moosajee: The way. And thank you for for inviting me.

Payman Langroudi: Of course.

[VOICE]: This [01:38:40] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one [01:38:45] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:38:50] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:38:55] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And [01:39:00] just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had [01:39:05] to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If [01:39:10] you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share [01:39:15] this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so so much for listening. Thanks. [01:39:20]

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast comes to you from enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system [00:00:05] that guarantees results on every single patient. We’ve treated hundreds of thousands of patients [00:00:10] now and have a really clear understanding of what it takes to get every patient to that delighted [00:00:15] state that we want to get to. If you want to understand teeth whitening in much further detail, join [00:00:20] us for online training only takes an hour completely free. Even if you never use [00:00:25] enlighten as a whitening system, you’ll learn loads and loads about whitening, how to talk about it, [00:00:30] how to involve your teams. Join us enlighten online training.com.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [00:00:45] leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Raj Ahluwalia onto the podcast. Raj is was a long time friend. [00:01:00] I think I’ve known you for at least 15 years longer than that.

Raj Ahlowia: It’s got to be more [00:01:05] like 20. Could be.

Payman Langroudi: Back in the rod. 30 days.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. Rod. Oh [00:01:10] my God. There’s a blast from the past.

Payman Langroudi: That was the first time I brought him here. Was 2005. [00:01:15]

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. So it was 20 years. Yeah, it is 20 years. Because I knew rod before [00:01:20] you brought him over from.

Payman Langroudi: Dental.

Raj Ahlowia: Town and we went out drinks, didn’t we? When he came over that [00:01:25] time. Yeah. With Hap as well. Yeah. With Hap. Yeah. Yeah. That’s right. Because me and Hap knew him from before.

Payman Langroudi: From [00:01:30] Dental town.

Raj Ahlowia: From before you brought him over. Yeah. So from the Dental town days. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Got [00:01:35] Dental town itself. Seems like a blast from the past.

Raj Ahlowia: Well, yeah, but that’s that’s the world [00:01:40] of the internet and, uh, apps, GDP, UK.

Payman Langroudi: Remember that? Still [00:01:45] there. You know.

Raj Ahlowia: Going on Dental town still exist as a thing. Does people still [00:01:50] use it?

Payman Langroudi: So I haven’t been for.

Raj Ahlowia: I haven’t been on it for 20 years.

Payman Langroudi: I think Howard does [00:01:55] a lot of stuff though. He does. He does This podcast. He does. He does. Uh, magazine. [00:02:00] Yeah, I’m sure it does exist.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah, I’m sure it does. I’m sure it does.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:02:05] this journey you’ve been on, it’s interesting. Right? I wanted you particularly [00:02:10] on for your.

Raj Ahlowia: First of all. Thank you for having me.

Payman Langroudi: My pleasure. My pleasure. I want you particularly on for the [00:02:15] idea of going from a practice from beginning to end. You [00:02:20] know, so, you know, the person we had in here before you, he’s on his 24th practice. [00:02:25]

Raj Ahlowia: Oh my God.

Payman Langroudi: And even though that’s an exciting sounding story, [00:02:30] it’s not the typical story in dentistry. Right. And dentistry, the typical story is [00:02:35] one practice. And then.

Raj Ahlowia: Is that the typical story, though. [00:02:40]

Payman Langroudi: The most typical story.

Raj Ahlowia: To be in just one practice? Yeah, I thought I was quite a.

Payman Langroudi: Practice owner for [00:02:45] a practice owner, of course, the most typical story is a is an associate story. Um, because [00:02:50] the numbers of associates are more than the numbers of practice owners. But for a practice owner, I’d say that’s the [00:02:55] typical story. One practice. And I was reflecting on this last night. You know, [00:03:00] one of my heroes, Andrew Darwood. Yeah, yeah, one. I mean, he’s actually [00:03:05] had a couple of other practices, but one extraordinary practice, you know, that he’s constantly [00:03:10] perfecting.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then I had the CEO of Bupa here, 400 [00:03:15] practices and the challenges that that causes. And of course, he didn’t start the [00:03:20] group. But at Anoushka Brogan from Demetra, 45 [00:03:25] practices lady, three children. Um, so you know, but the [00:03:30] most common story one practice. And you were in that practice since you were a year. [00:03:35]

Raj Ahlowia: Well, yes, I started there on September the 5th, [00:03:40] 1991.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. And is it the only practice you’ve ever really worked in then?

Raj Ahlowia: No. [00:03:45] I have dabbled with, uh, working in Harley Street for other people. There was [00:03:50] a couple of Harley Street jobs, and also I’ve helped out [00:03:55] colleagues. A very nice lady who sadly was suffering with cancer and [00:04:00] needed someone to run her practice while she was dealing with that. So for a few months I went and helped [00:04:05] her out, basically running it on the weekends, keeping her practice alive, and [00:04:10] another friend that needed an implant ologist. I [00:04:15] went and did visiting implant work for him at his huge NHS [00:04:20] factory. Um, so yeah, I’ve done little bits on the side, but [00:04:25] um, never really stopped working. The usual, [00:04:30] you know, 9 to 5 grind. For me, it was, uh, 750 in the morning to five grind [00:04:35] at, uh, my little humble practice five days a week. No, it started [00:04:40] five days a week. Yeah. But, um, my nurse, who worked with me throughout [00:04:45] most of my career, actually, for over 30 years, Jill and I, we worked out that, um, [00:04:50] if we started an hour and a quarter earlier every morning for four days a week [00:04:55] and did one late evening, we could do the 9 to 5 for five [00:05:00] days. Hours in four days. So we proposed it to our principal and [00:05:05] he said, yeah, okay, give it a shot. And so from about 3 or 4 years in, [00:05:10] we dropped Jill and I to four days a week, but did these extended hours [00:05:15] at the practice. And so I did.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what you’ve been doing since?

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah, that’s what I did [00:05:20] for, uh, yeah. About 30 odd years. Did a four day week.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. You know, the.

Raj Ahlowia: Classic. [00:05:25]

Payman Langroudi: The classic cliche about you earn more in four than you do in five?

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. [00:05:30] I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a classic cliche. Lots of people talk about it. I tried it and it worked. [00:05:35] It did work for me, but it was to do with the fewer hours. As in sharper [00:05:40] hours.

Raj Ahlowia: Right.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so, you know, like, as you don’t leave [00:05:45] anything half baked or temporise, you’re much sharper with every patient, every sort [00:05:50] of examination. You’re faster.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That worked. I went from 5 to 4. [00:05:55] I didn’t earn more. I earned the same. Yeah. And then from. But then I thought, let’s try 4 to 3. And [00:06:00] that didn’t work.

Raj Ahlowia: I think the patients liked it because, um, [00:06:05] where the practice was in Biggleswade, it was about a three minute walk from the station. Yeah. [00:06:10] And so there was a huge, uh, sort of proportion [00:06:15] of the patients really wanted those early in the morning appointments from [00:06:20] 750 in the morning so they could come do their check-up and whatever, and then go get the train to work or [00:06:25] then come in the evening. So from, from a patient’s patients.

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t it.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. [00:06:30] It really we found that it really suited them. And then of course there was the group that preferred [00:06:35] to come in the middle of the day, the housewives and the rest of them. Um, but yeah, having that wider, [00:06:40] broader range of hours, um, was a unique thing back when we started [00:06:45] doing it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: And the patients really did appreciate it. So we captured a bit of a market [00:06:50] there. Yeah, that was nice.

Payman Langroudi: Do you live around there as well?

Raj Ahlowia: No, I’ve never lived around there. I’ve [00:06:55] always lived. Well, not always. I mean, my younger years was growing up in [00:07:00] north London. Um, but then my father bought a business [00:07:05] in Saint Albans, and we moved to Saint Albans when I was just turned 11. And [00:07:10] so.

Payman Langroudi: What did your father do?

Raj Ahlowia: Uh, well, he’s deceased now, but, um, [00:07:15] he had a very interesting life, actually. Uh, he hitchhiked from India [00:07:20] to the UK. You’re kidding. He took the queen or the king at the time, a £3 [00:07:25] offer when they were looking for male workforce to rebuild [00:07:30] the UK, rebuild the country and the economy. And the deal was that if you [00:07:35] took the King’s £3 or the Queen’s £3, um, you had to then make your own way. [00:07:40] So he came by land and it took him a year. Wow. And the interesting journey that he took [00:07:45] through Afghanistan and Iran and Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia [00:07:50] and Germany, eastern Germany and western Germany, and then eventually to the UK, stopping [00:07:55] along the way and working jobs as a waiter or whatever. Um, he [00:08:00] told me a story once where he got stuck in. It was either Yugoslavia. I think it must have been Yugoslavia [00:08:05] while it was still a communist country. And he was, uh, waiting [00:08:10] tables in a restaurant. And, um, he was the only Indian brown guy there, [00:08:15] you know, in the whole country, practically, and wearing a turban. And, um, in walked [00:08:20] another turbaned Indian guy. It turned out to be the ambassador of India, [00:08:25] of India in Yugoslavia. And this guy said to my dad, you know, what the hell are you doing here? And [00:08:30] my dad said, well, I’m trying to hitchhike my way to the UK. And he [00:08:35] said, you need to get out of this Eastern European country because this is a communist country. You [00:08:40] don’t get stuck here. So he bunged my dad some cash To to help him move [00:08:45] on to the next phase of his journey. So when he did finally get to the UK, he did [00:08:50] all kinds of jobs. I think he I remember him telling me that at the time there were jobs all [00:08:55] over. You could go to a factory, knock on the door and there’d be jobs for you. And his first job [00:09:00] was working as as an injection moulder, making plastic [00:09:05] trays for food.

Payman Langroudi: This in the 50s?

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. And he told me that [00:09:10] he lasted there about two days because, um, the supervisor came over and found [00:09:15] his pile of, uh, plastic trays. All had an indentation from a screw in [00:09:20] them because a screw had fallen down into the mould. And my dad said, look, I [00:09:25] don’t know anything about that. You told me, pull this lever, put another plastic template [00:09:30] in, pull the lever again, take the template out and stack it. I don’t know anything about [00:09:35] screws loose inside the machine. And so he lost the job and he said, that’s fine and walked to the next factory. [00:09:40] I got another job, But eventually what happened was he ended [00:09:45] up working for the post office, and within the post office he found a community [00:09:50] of other Sikhs who had emigrated, and those that little core [00:09:55] group of 4 or 5 friends remained his friends for life. And [00:10:00] it’s interesting that a lot of my childhood friends are the children of that little group of [00:10:05] five Sikh guys, and now there’s sadly, there’s only two of them left [00:10:10] alive. The three of them, the.

Payman Langroudi: Original.

Raj Ahlowia: Group, three of the original group have died, [00:10:15] and there’s only two of them that remain.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting.

Raj Ahlowia: And I met up actually last week [00:10:20] with, uh, two, two of the sons from two different fathers. Um, [00:10:25] we were like a little trio of three that were around the same age back when we were tiny [00:10:30] little kids. And the way that the community worked back then is on the weekends. [00:10:35] They would all meet, and these guys loved to drink. There was the Chivas [00:10:40] Regal and, you know, the Johnnie Walker Black Label. They’d [00:10:45] be sitting and playing cards while the wives would all be cooking the food, and the kids would all be playing together and we’d [00:10:50] all sleep over. And the following weekend it would be another one’s house, and then the following weekend would [00:10:55] be another one’s house. So I grew up with these guys that were like my cousins in [00:11:00] a community that they made for themselves because they’d left all their cousins. The [00:11:05] parents had left the story.

Payman Langroudi: The immigrant story is your friends become your family. Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: That’s right.

Payman Langroudi: You haven’t got [00:11:10] your family around.

Raj Ahlowia: And those those old dudes were like, closer to me as uncles [00:11:15] than my genuine uncles growing up who I never met.

Payman Langroudi: Overseas.

Raj Ahlowia: Or they were overseas and [00:11:20] I knew them. I never met them. So they really weren’t on my radar. [00:11:25] But these guys were.

Payman Langroudi: I have a similar situation here, actually, and actually we call each [00:11:30] other cousins.

Raj Ahlowia: Exactly. Well, more like brothers even.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but [00:11:35] interesting, because one of my best friends from school was a Sikh guy whose dad worked at the post office. [00:11:40] I wonder if maybe.

Raj Ahlowia: So. [00:11:45] So he worked for the post office for years and years and years, until eventually he had to retire through a [00:11:50] back injury, back problems. And you know, he’s still collecting the the post [00:11:55] Office pension and my mum is still collecting his post pension. But then after that, there was a lull [00:12:00] for several years around the time when I was about 16 to 1920, where he, [00:12:05] um. Oh, no. Sorry. Uh, after the post office, [00:12:10] um, that’s when he started becoming a bit of an entrepreneur. And he started with, um, [00:12:15] a, uh, a stall on Wembley Market. So he was [00:12:20] selling women’s and children’s clothes on Wembley Market. Then eventually he bought a shop in [00:12:25] Saint Albans, which was a sort of grocery shop. And he, [00:12:30] he basically I always say my dad invented the concept of 7-Eleven because [00:12:35] he would open at stupid o’clock in the morning and keep it open till late in the evening and [00:12:40] eventually, you know, got an off licence. It became a very popular, uh, shop. [00:12:45]

Payman Langroudi: But by this time you were gone.

Raj Ahlowia: No. This was. We bought the shop. When? When I was 11 [00:12:50] or 11. We moved to Saint Albans when I was 11. So I did my secondary school education in [00:12:55] in Saint Albans. It was towards the end of that that he sold the business.

Payman Langroudi: When did [00:13:00] you chip in as well?

Raj Ahlowia: Oh yeah. I was always working there. Yeah, I had to, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Cash and carry [00:13:05] all the.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. Trips to the cash and carry to go to Cricklewood. Um, to the cash and carry and Cricklewood. [00:13:10] And in his clapped out van, um, sitting on the engine in the back of a VW [00:13:15] camper van kind of deal. Um, that was his, um, you know, a goods vehicle.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:13:20] that, sort of that sort of communication with the whole public. Yeah. [00:13:25] That you get in a shop. Yeah. It’s literally everyone, isn’t it? Yeah. Because anyone [00:13:30] from the old granny to the.

Raj Ahlowia: Well, we lived on a, we lived on an estate, a council estate, [00:13:35] and we lived five of us in a one bedroom flat above the shop. So my [00:13:40] mum and dad had the bedroom and me and my brother and my sister, we we slept in the living room, my [00:13:45] sister slept on the sofa bed and next to the sofa bed was another double bed that me and my [00:13:50] brother shared. And I remember, you know, it was 50 pees in the metre to [00:13:55] pay for the gas and the electric and the shop was downstairs, so it was a [00:14:00] pretty poor little council estate, but one tiny little parade of shops. And [00:14:05] um, yeah, it was a very popular little grocery shop. And I what forced him really to [00:14:10] sell was that they’d already, um, a co-op had opened up in [00:14:15] the small parade, and then the shop next to us was going to open as a pure off licence. And [00:14:20] my dad thought, you know, this is a time to sell before this competition kind of ruins [00:14:25] the situation. Weirdly, that off licence shop [00:14:30] is now a dental practice, Which is quite interesting. Um, yeah. [00:14:35] So, um, after he sold that, he decided to retire for a bit. And by this [00:14:40] time I was in dental school.

Raj Ahlowia: And then after dental school, while I [00:14:45] was at VTI, there was a guy in the shop below the practice [00:14:50] who was another Sikh guy, and he ran an auto spares shop. And my dad spotted [00:14:55] this when he’d driven me up to the practice for my interview for the job. [00:15:00] And he parked the car. And he just as Sikh people do in [00:15:05] Indian people do, they go and they meet another Indian person, go chat to them. So he made a struck [00:15:10] up a friendship with this guy and this auto shop below [00:15:15] the practice. And every now and again he would randomly come and visit this guy and [00:15:20] say hi and sit and chat with him in the shop. And one day, um, [00:15:25] a policeman came to the shop and said, look, we’ve got a person in [00:15:30] custody in the Biggleswade Nick around the corner and we can’t communicate with [00:15:35] him. We don’t know. Don’t know what language he speaks. Would either of you be free to help us? [00:15:40] We know he’s from your part of the world. And of course the guy in the shop couldn’t leave because it’s [00:15:45] his shop. And my dad said, yeah, I’ll come with you. So he went round the corner to the Biggleswade Nick. And, [00:15:50] um, the police said, look, we just need you to read him his [00:15:55] rights.

Raj Ahlowia: So my dad went in, spoke with him in [00:16:00] one language, couldn’t communicate. But the interesting thing about my dad is because he [00:16:05] hitchhiked from India to the UK. He picked up a lot [00:16:10] of languages along the way, and he comes from a part of India called Maharashtra, which [00:16:15] has the native language of Marathi. So he could speak Marathi like [00:16:20] a native, but he could also speak Hindi like a native because Hindi was the national language. [00:16:25] But he’s a Punjabi Sikh so he could also speak Punjabi and Punjabi. [00:16:30] And Punjab is quite close to Pakistan. And my dad travelled through Pakistan [00:16:35] and picked up Urdu quite quickly and then he picked up Arabic and [00:16:40] eventually you know, German as well. Um, because he stayed in Germany for a while and obviously [00:16:45] whatever serbo-croat they spoke in Yugoslavia. So he started with one [00:16:50] language, listen to what the guy was saying and realised, oh, I can communicate [00:16:55] with him in a dialect, something or other close to what he can speak in. And [00:17:00] he eventually explained to him, these are your rights. And he gave his details [00:17:05] to the police and left. And about a month later a check arrived [00:17:10] from Bedfordshire Police for.

Payman Langroudi: Translation.

Raj Ahlowia: Translation [00:17:15] services. And what’s this? And I said, dad, what that is, is an opportunity. [00:17:20] And that weekend we composed a CV, uh, [00:17:25] printed out loads of copies of it and letters, and [00:17:30] we sent them to every police station in Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire. And we also I said [00:17:35] to my dad, you also want to send them to all the solicitors offices, as [00:17:40] many as you can think of locally. And that began his second career as [00:17:45] an interpreter.

Payman Langroudi: How crazy.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. And he loved that job because [00:17:50] we weren’t that far from Luton. And the local [00:17:55] police used to come and pick him up and drive him every day to [00:18:00] go, and.

Payman Langroudi: A different place to do that.

Raj Ahlowia: Different interpretations. He ended up working [00:18:05] in the courts. Lots of lawyers knew him and they would pick him because he could [00:18:10] speak so many different languages. He ended up working at the airports when the cycle [00:18:15] of all right now we’re on to Asian immigrants, we’re going to start interviewing them. And [00:18:20] there would be a cycle where, you know, they’d do immigrants from Africa and Africa where a Far [00:18:25] East. But when it got to the Asian ones, they’d recruit him and he’d be going day after day. He’d travel as [00:18:30] far as Wales. They’d pick him up and escort him. And he knew [00:18:35] so many police people personally, his personal friends, so many lawyers, and he [00:18:40] was a very sociable person. And, um, yeah, he loved that job. Did [00:18:45] that write up a.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant story, man?

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah, yeah. So, weirdly, he should have [00:18:50] done that from the start, because what he didn’t realise was he had this.

Payman Langroudi: Skill.

Raj Ahlowia: He had this skill [00:18:55] set of all these languages. I mean, when we when we made the CV and we were trying to work [00:19:00] out all the languages we listed 15.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Raj Ahlowia: 15 different languages that he could speak [00:19:05] fluently, which was crazy because I didn’t know this about my [00:19:10] dad. And, you know, I was now 25, 26 and helping him to start this second [00:19:15] very, very successful career.

Payman Langroudi: Where did dentistry come into play? I mean, were you a clever kid? Were [00:19:20] you like top of your class or what were you?

Raj Ahlowia: Way I was. Yeah, yeah, but [00:19:25] dentistry wasn’t on my radar.

Payman Langroudi: What were you thinking?

Raj Ahlowia: Oh, University wasn’t on my radar.

Payman Langroudi: Why?

Raj Ahlowia: No [00:19:30] one in my family had gone to university. It didn’t even. It wasn’t even a conversation [00:19:35] in the house. It wasn’t a conversation with relatives or friends. We were. I [00:19:40] was the son of a postman, you know, uh, nobody that I knew, [00:19:45] nobody that my parents knew had gone to university. So I didn’t [00:19:50] actually fit in a university application form. I was at school and [00:19:55] there was a deadline for handing in what was then called the Ucca form University in college, something [00:20:00] application form, and I hadn’t filled one in and the deadline was, um, [00:20:05] pretty close. And my form teacher at the [00:20:10] time was also my chemistry teacher. I was doing chemistry A-level, and he also happened [00:20:15] to be the careers adviser for school, so he was the person [00:20:20] wanting to see the Ucca forms. He came to me one morning and said, why aren’t you handed [00:20:25] in your Ucca form yet? And I said, well, I haven’t for one thing. And he [00:20:30] was gobsmacked. And he said, but you’re a a really [00:20:35] good student. You’re doing well in your A-levels. You did really [00:20:40] well in your O-levels because before GCSEs. He said, [00:20:45] why haven’t you thought about university? I said, well, I was just going to leave school and get a job. [00:20:50]

Raj Ahlowia: I was thinking about getting a job with a bank. And [00:20:55] he said, what he said is that what you want to do out of your life? I [00:21:00] said, no, I wanted to be an airline pilot, but my eyesight was crappy and my parents can’t [00:21:05] afford to, um, give me flying lessons. Um, so I [00:21:10] didn’t really have any other ambitions other than that. And [00:21:15] he said, right, look, you need to do something for me. And he said, I want [00:21:20] you to write down things that you want out of life. Write [00:21:25] it down on a piece of paper. And then I want you to go get a university course guidebook. And [00:21:30] I want you to go through it and look to see. Is there anything in [00:21:35] there that could give you what you want out of life, but also matches the [00:21:40] three A-levels? You’re doing maths, physics and chemistry because you’ve got a lot [00:21:45] of opportunities in your spark kid and university is free. And it was at the time, in [00:21:50] fact, they’d give you a grant to go. It was about £3,000 a year, but you didn’t [00:21:55] have to pay anything to the university. So I didn’t [00:22:00] really have anything else to do that weekend. So I thought, I’ll take you at your word and I’ll do this exercise. [00:22:05]

Raj Ahlowia: So I wrote down what I wanted out of life and it wasn’t that [00:22:10] stunning. I just put down things that were just slightly better than [00:22:15] what we had at the time. Like I would like to go on a holiday. We had [00:22:20] never been on a holiday. I’ve been out of the country, uh, to India to visit [00:22:25] relatives. And actually, that’s another whole story because I got left there in a [00:22:30] boarding school and almost died. Uh, so that’s something else we can talk about another [00:22:35] time. But, um, the only other time I’d left mainland England was a [00:22:40] day trip with those other kids and other uncles from the post office [00:22:45] and aunties. We went on a day trip to the Isle of Wight. So I wrote down, I’d like [00:22:50] to go on a holiday and I’d like to have a nice car. I like to own my own [00:22:55] house. Um. By this point we had moved out of the one bedroom flat. He [00:23:00] had made enough money in the house in the business to buy a house. And, uh, so [00:23:05] I wasn’t looking to be a millionaire or billionaire. I just wanted to do slightly better [00:23:10] than my dad had. Grafted multiple jobs and worked his, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Expectations [00:23:15] are a funny thing. You know, like, there’s been research on it that everyone thinks if they earn [00:23:20] two and a half times more than they earn, that would be a lot of money. Yeah. Everyone how much [00:23:25] they earn? Yeah. You know, like the person earning 30 grand says 95 or whatever [00:23:30] it is.

Raj Ahlowia: There’s a difference now with this Instagram generation where everybody’s [00:23:35] showing their best life and living like a billionaire, and everyone [00:23:40] feels like that’s what they deserve and should have. And if they don’t have it, [00:23:45] there’s a disappointment. And I feel that’s a little bit sad for them. I feel sorry for them.

Payman Langroudi: You know that thing? [00:23:50] What’s the cliche comparison is the something of joy that takes [00:23:55] all your joy? Yeah, yeah. And and certainly when you know, it’s.

Raj Ahlowia: Like, don’t read beauty magazines [00:24:00] because it’ll only is in that song, wasn’t it by Baz Luhrmann. Don’t don’t look at. [00:24:05]

Payman Langroudi: But certainly certainly looking at your neighbour’s car and shoes and holidays is a massive [00:24:10] error. But now with with social. It’s almost it’s almost [00:24:15] the default like seeing what everyone’s up to.

Raj Ahlowia: So I was only comparing myself to what I knew, which [00:24:20] is what my dad. And so.

Payman Langroudi: Then. Okay, so then you look down the list and dentistry seem to fit. [00:24:25]

Raj Ahlowia: No, what happened was I went I went out, and I bought Brian Heaps University [00:24:30] Course Guide book, 1985 1986. Is that a pink cover and a graphic of a [00:24:35] student looking at some books? And I went through the A to Z Aardvark [00:24:40] technology to zoology. Pretty much the same stuff, [00:24:45] right? So I went through the A to Z, and I came up with a short list [00:24:50] of a few things, but only two of them matched on the A-levels [00:24:55] required, because then you’d flick to that page and you’d see what A-levels are required. And there are only two things. [00:25:00] And so I filled in my form. You’re allowed five choices. I put down [00:25:05] three choices for dentistry and [00:25:10] two for astrophysics. And I handed it in to doctor Roger [00:25:15] Bellini. Lovely guy. And, uh, he took one look at it [00:25:20] and he looked up at me. He goes, you’re an idiot. That was the words that came out of his mouth. And I was [00:25:25] like, I was really in a way, I was really disappointed. Upset because I’d done exactly [00:25:30] what he’d asked. And I told him, well, I did exactly what you asked. And he said, yeah, I [00:25:35] get you’ve done what I asked, but you’ve picked two incredibly [00:25:40] hard courses to get into. There’s so much competition to get into these. [00:25:45] You’re going to have like 20,000 other kids trying to get into these Dental schools [00:25:50] or astrophysics colleges, and the astrophysics colleges and the Dental schools are going [00:25:55] to only look for reasons to reject applications quickly. And one of [00:26:00] them will be, are you committed to this profession? So if you haven’t put down five applications [00:26:05] for astrophysics, forget it. None of the astrophysics colleges are going to want you. And if you haven’t done five for dentistry, [00:26:10] they’re going to do the same thing.

Raj Ahlowia: So he said take it away. Another copy to [00:26:15] choose between astrophysics or dentistry and put down five applications. So [00:26:20] I went home that day after school and I did the one thing [00:26:25] no teenage boy ever does. I asked my dad for advice. [00:26:30] Okay. And he could see I was itching to ask him something because I [00:26:35] was kind of trying to get close to him. And sometimes [00:26:40] these ageing parents, fathers in particular, it’s hard to get close [00:26:45] to them and ask them for advice. They’re too busy in their own world of working hard to make [00:26:50] a living and pay the mortgage. And he said, you look like you got something on your mind. What do you want to ask me? [00:26:55] And I explained to him, I said, look, I’m going to go to university. And he goes, oh, you’re [00:27:00] going to go to university, are you? And this is news to him. It’s the first time he knew that I was going to apply. And [00:27:05] I said, yeah. And, um, I’ve got to make a decision between 1 or 2 things [00:27:10] and he goes, okay, what’s that then? And I said, well, uh, either [00:27:15] become an astrophysicist or become a dentist. And [00:27:20] he stopped and he just looked at me for about five seconds, and he went, do you [00:27:25] really think NASA’s going to give a job to an Indian boy from north London? Go become a dentist. That [00:27:30] was it. And I thought, yeah, he’s got a point. [00:27:35] Now, I could have been landing lunar rovers [00:27:40] right on the moon now. India bloody, landing their own things. Now [00:27:45] on the moon. I could have been doing that instead.

Payman Langroudi: Not to mention the CEO of [00:27:50] Microsoft and Google Indians.

Raj Ahlowia: What? I could have been doing something like that. Or I could [00:27:55] have been a banker and, uh, got my own chalet in the Swiss Alps or something. [00:28:00]

Payman Langroudi: But although, although we mustn’t paper over something that your dad was saying, that [00:28:05] was true at the time. Yeah. Was that I remember going on elective in 92, [00:28:10] and the dean of UCSF where I went was gay [00:28:15] and black, right. And I remember thinking, there is no way the Dean of [00:28:20] Cardiff, where I was, was going to be gay, all black.

Raj Ahlowia: Right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And that [00:28:25] was the way of the world in 85, 86. That was I’m sure your dad was looking in the post office saying, [00:28:30] no, no. Brown faces at the top of the organisation. You know, we mustn’t crack up like paper over [00:28:35] that fact.

Raj Ahlowia: I mean, I took him and his what he was as vice was, and it was [00:28:40] I thought, you know, you’re right. Go and become a dentist. So. So where did you go? Late. [00:28:45] I handed in my day.

Payman Langroudi: Late.

Raj Ahlowia: With five applications for dentistry, and [00:28:50] I got one offer, and that’s where I went. What was it, guys?

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:28:55] Yeah. Okay. And did you spend the first year in digs or, [00:29:00] uh, Wolfson House, whatever it was called?

Raj Ahlowia: So back then, there wasn’t [00:29:05] guaranteed accommodation.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: You had to go and find somewhere to live. And [00:29:10] it was a struggle trying to find somewhere to live, and ended up in a house with [00:29:15] a couple of medics and three dental students in Stretham. [00:29:20]

Payman Langroudi: In the first year. Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah, in Stretham. In the first term. And [00:29:25] the landlord was a very old guy, and he [00:29:30] just kept turning up every day. And we were [00:29:35] like, this. This guy’s really weird. Why does he keep turning up here and [00:29:40] hanging out? We found it. We all found it very uncomfortable. [00:29:45] So within a few weeks, we all had to sit somewhere else. And [00:29:50] I went to the, um, office at the dental school and explained my problem [00:29:55] that I need to find somewhere. And they helped me to get a room [00:30:00] in the nurses home at guy’s campus, which was next door to the [00:30:05] medical school building, which is where we had a lot of our undergraduate first year. So I lived [00:30:10] in the.

Payman Langroudi: What was your what was your outlook like? You know, you come from the suburbs. Yeah, big, [00:30:15] big city and all that. Were you. Yeah. Were you excited? Scared? Were you, were you excited? [00:30:20] Party guy?

Raj Ahlowia: I wasn’t I wasn’t a party guy. I’ve never [00:30:25] been a party guy. I’ve always been a bit [00:30:30] of a loner, a bit aloof. Um, I like [00:30:35] people watching, but I don’t kind of fit in easily. There’s reasons [00:30:40] for it. Um, one of them is I suffer from a thing called prosopagnosia [00:30:45] right from childhood. And, um, it’s gotten worse as I’ve gotten [00:30:50] older. And prosopagnosia is an odd thing. It affects about 1 in 10,000 people I didn’t know I had [00:30:55] it until I started googling. And Google wasn’t a thing back then. But [00:31:00] prosopagnosia is a disconnect between the visual part of your brain [00:31:05] and the brain that recognises names and labels. [00:31:10] So when I see people, I don’t recognise them. And [00:31:15] that happens even with family members. It’s not that I don’t recognise them, I know that I know them. [00:31:20] But what I can’t bring to my mouth is an aphasia to bring their [00:31:25] name to my mouth. And so it’s on the tip of my tongue and it’s sometimes it can [00:31:30] be embarrassing. So my wife knows about this. A lot of my colleagues at work know about this, and [00:31:35] they would always find ways to help me. But I also found strategies myself to help myself. Um, [00:31:40] so, for example, if we, um, meet people my wife has never [00:31:45] met before or Dental colleagues, I’m struggling to bring their name to my [00:31:50] mouth, and I have a feeling that I know them, but [00:31:55] I’m not sure. So I find strategies to to to help me recognise people that I do know. Um, [00:32:00] but I’ll say something like, oh, why don’t you guys introduce yourself? I’ll go grab [00:32:05] some drinks. And my wife knows exactly what that means. It means that I don’t want to get [00:32:10] feel, make this person feel embarrassed. Like I don’t know their name because they know that I know them, [00:32:15] but I just can’t bring their name.

Payman Langroudi: Is it just a social thing or is it?

Raj Ahlowia: I know it happens all the time, for [00:32:20] example.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, do you do you manage to remember that all the branches of the vagus nerve or whatever, [00:32:25] like how did you know I.

Raj Ahlowia: I used to draw diagrams and [00:32:30] by rote learning, uh, I’m visual that way that [00:32:35] I can just keep drawing the same diagram over and over again, the labels down, and then then [00:32:40] figure it out. Um, but I mean, the the weirdest example of this is, uh, [00:32:45] I went to my wife’s from Finland, and early in our relationship, I [00:32:50] went to Finland to hang out with them at their family summer cottages by the [00:32:55] lakes and I ended up going and spooning my now sister in law. [00:33:00] I jumped on the back of a bench and cuddled her from behind and was [00:33:05] snuggling her neck and she went, oh, hello.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the wrong.

Raj Ahlowia: Sister. And I was like, oh [00:33:10] my God. And so weird little things like that. Um, but my nurse [00:33:15] Jill, for many years, she understood and she would help me by, um, [00:33:20] um, sort of, uh, giving me a [00:33:25] quick update of who the person was that I’d been seeing for years and years and years as a patient, but [00:33:30] had no clue from their name who they were or what their face was. [00:33:35] I knew the name and I knew the face, but I couldn’t put the two together. [00:33:40] And that’s been the way it always has been for me. So, um, building [00:33:45] relationships with people, building social connections has always been slightly [00:33:50] difficult. And going out to a nightclub where it’s dark and [00:33:55] it’s noisy. I can’t use some of my [00:34:00] strategies for helping me to recognise faces, so I study faces. Uh, [00:34:05] probably more than other people do, because I’m looking for things that I can link [00:34:10] using memory strategies to a label that helps me know their [00:34:15] name. So one of the hardest ones, um, I [00:34:20] always seem to have trouble with is, um, there’s [00:34:25] a there’s a particular actor who I love his his his work, and [00:34:30] I can never remember his name. And I always have to link it [00:34:35] through a convoluted series of connections of what movie he’s been and what some other actor has [00:34:40] been in to somebody who I can recognise and then get back to his name. And the reason I can’t tell you his name [00:34:45] is, is because I’m trying to go through that process and I can’t remember his name.

Payman Langroudi: I think I [00:34:50] may have a degree of this disease too. I don’t know. I’m terrible with [00:34:55] faces and names.

Raj Ahlowia: So I avoid social situations.

Payman Langroudi: Like [00:35:00] you kind of describe yourself as an introvert.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah, a little bit. It makes me. It makes [00:35:05] me a little bit introverted. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because you know what you describe. You know, the way people discuss [00:35:10] extrovert. Introvert is an introvert is tired by social interaction. Well, if [00:35:15] you’re having to go through all these hoops.

Raj Ahlowia: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: It’s tiring.

Raj Ahlowia: It exhausts me. Yeah, yeah [00:35:20] yeah. So I don’t don’t. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then what was the experience like. How would you [00:35:25] overall assess your dental school experience.

Raj Ahlowia: I hated it.

Payman Langroudi: Hated it.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah absolutely hated [00:35:30] it. I’m not academically gifted. Um, but I have incredibly [00:35:35] good hand skills. And because of this visual acuity of having to use visual [00:35:40] concentration, um, I use it a lot. [00:35:45] And so I could see a skill and do it if someone [00:35:50] showed me how to do something, I could watch what they were doing with my hands and repeat it. [00:35:55] Um, this this came to a point. Um, there’s a funny story about this. [00:36:00] I, my wife and I went to the Bahamas early in our relationship for a [00:36:05] holiday, and we went to the Atlantis Hotel in the Bahamas, [00:36:10] which is almost identical to the one in Dubai. And we were sitting at [00:36:15] a bar in the casino, and this guy walked up to us. He was older, [00:36:20] we were only in our early 30s, and he was clearly in his 50s [00:36:25] or so, and trailing behind him was a very sheepish looking young American couple. [00:36:30] We didn’t understand what was going on with them, but this guy sat next to us and he said, are you guys here [00:36:35] on holiday? And we went, yeah, yeah we are. And he goes, are you enjoying everything? Yeah, yeah. He goes, uh, [00:36:40] would you like to see a magic trick? And we’re like, yeah, sure. And he goes, I’ll show you this [00:36:45] magic trick.

Raj Ahlowia: Um, but I’m also going to make a bet with you. It’s a hand skill trick. [00:36:50] And he said, I’m going to show it to you, and I’ll make a bet with you for $1,000 [00:36:55] that you can’t do it, even if I show it to you three times. And I said, [00:37:00] no, I’m not really interested. And he goes, no, no, no. Why not? And I said, well, I don’t have $1,000 [00:37:05] to lose. For starters, he goes, look, I’ll show you it first and then you can [00:37:10] decide whether you want to take the bet. So he showed me this little hand skill magic trick that [00:37:15] involved just basically two champagne corks and manipulating them in your hands. And [00:37:20] he goes there. That’s all you have to do. You just have to do this thing that I’ve [00:37:25] just showed you. And I go, look, I still I saw what you did, and I can do it. That’s fine. But [00:37:30] I don’t have $1,000 to lose. And then he laid the bombshell that explained what [00:37:35] the sheepish couple was all about. He said, you don’t have to have $1,000. I’ve got $1,000. [00:37:40] If you can do it, I’ll give you $1,000. But if you can’t, [00:37:45] I get to spend the evening with your young lady. And it [00:37:50] was like straight out of that movie.

Payman Langroudi: Your wife. Indecent proposal.

Raj Ahlowia: Indecent proposal. [00:37:55] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whoa!

Raj Ahlowia: And she looked at me like. You better not take [00:38:00] this. We weren’t married at the time. And I said, look, I [00:38:05] can do that. So I said, sure. So [00:38:10] I took the corks and I did it first time in front of him. And [00:38:15] the guy flipped out. He thought I knew the magic trick and had seen it before. I said, no, I haven’t. [00:38:20] I have not seen that trick before. I just happen to be very [00:38:25] good with my hands and visual acuity. And then [00:38:30] I realised what the young couple were following him around for. Because they had lost the bet. And [00:38:35] in the end, he didn’t pay me the thousand. He welshed on it. He just got angry and stormed off.

Payman Langroudi: Oh [00:38:40] dear, oh dear. Actually, before.

Raj Ahlowia: He stormed off he tried to do a he tried to do a double or nothing, but [00:38:45] I got him on that one as well. So, um. Yeah. And then he stormed off. So [00:38:50] I’ve been always very good with my eyes and had a [00:38:55] pretty good dexterity in my hands up until recently. [00:39:00] And so I could watch a skill and repeat it. Yeah, but [00:39:05] reading a book was terrible. You know, I fall asleep [00:39:10] after 3 or 4 pages reading any Dental book. You know, if someone wants a cure for insomnia, I’ve [00:39:15] got a whole stack of dental textbooks. Help yourself, mate, read five pages, you’re going to fall [00:39:20] asleep.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me about your first job.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. So my first [00:39:25] job. Well, that’s not my first job. My first job was my, you know, summer [00:39:30] Saturday job. But you want to know about dentistry? Yeah. So my first job was [00:39:35] my job, which is in the.

Payman Langroudi: In the practice that you spent your whole career [00:39:40] in.

Raj Ahlowia: I spent my whole career in. Yeah. So I am a [00:39:45] very risk averse kind of person. And at the time when we graduated, [00:39:50] the choices were go and find a job applying [00:39:55] wherever. I think the jobs were just advertising the BD at the time, and [00:40:00] you could choose between trying to get a private job in Harley Street or if you had enough family [00:40:05] money, go and set your own one up or whatever, or um, go [00:40:10] and get a job in the NHS. And there was a very few private [00:40:15] practices outside of Harley Street. That’s right. So. [00:40:20] I didn’t know one NHS practice from another. What was [00:40:25] a good one? What was a bad one? But I knew there was a a range of them. But [00:40:30] what I did know was that there was this new thing called VCT, and that the [00:40:35] trainers had been vetted as passing some [00:40:40] standard and having the ability to teach general practice. [00:40:45] So I thought, I’ll do that. It was voluntary at the time. Now it’s mandatory, but at the time [00:40:50] it was the second year of the experiment. 1991. It was entirely [00:40:55] voluntary, whether you want to do it. And I thought, right, I’ll do that. And [00:41:00] I thought, I don’t have money, I [00:41:05] don’t have any savings. I need to earn money fast, and I’m going to have to work by, uh, [00:41:10] somewhere close to my parents house. So I got the list of all [00:41:15] the practices in Hertfordshire and Bedfordshire, and there were only three. [00:41:20] So I applied to all three. One of them was in Hitchin in Hertfordshire. One [00:41:25] of them was Bedford in Bedfordshire, and the other one was Biggleswade. So I had interviews [00:41:30] at all three. The guy in Hitchin absolutely loved me.

Raj Ahlowia: He was a guy’s man and I was a [00:41:35] guy’s man. He absolutely loved me. Um, but there was some things about the way [00:41:40] he ran the practice when I was asking him, and also about what would happen after [00:41:45] the year that didn’t sit well with me. He said, oh, [00:41:50] no, I don’t believe in Associateships. But you can be my assistant and work under my [00:41:55] number. And I said, well, what does that mean? Do I have clinical freedom with my [00:42:00] patients? He goes, no, you’ll have to justify everything to me. It’s okay. [00:42:05] Never heard of that before. The guy in Bedford wanted somebody [00:42:10] who was a little closer. He said, where are you going to live? I said, my parents in Saint Albans, [00:42:15] and it’s not that far. But it was far enough that he said you wouldn’t be close [00:42:20] enough to handle the on call work. I need someone who’s going to be living closer. And the [00:42:25] guy in Biggleswade, when I went there, he showed me the practice and he said, if you like [00:42:30] it, let me know. So the guy in Bedford didn’t want me because [00:42:35] I was too far away. The guy in Hitchin had this odd arrangement [00:42:40] for after VAT and I wanted some continuity. I wanted to start [00:42:45] a practice where I could build a career, and I felt like I didn’t want to be then [00:42:50] finishing the VC and then having to find another job, because I might as well have just done that from the start. Just [00:42:55] find a regular job. Um, so I rang the guy in Biggleswade [00:43:00] and he said, sure, start on this day. And that was it. So [00:43:05] I started on September the 5th.

Payman Langroudi: How many years after that did you buy it?

Raj Ahlowia: Uh, [00:43:10] well. Well.

Payman Langroudi: I know I’m jumping, but. But how many years was it.

Raj Ahlowia: After [00:43:15] the VAT year?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: He asked me, did I want to be a partner?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, dear. And then. [00:43:20] Wow.

Raj Ahlowia: And I said no, because for one, I couldn’t afford it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:43:25]

Raj Ahlowia: And every year thereafter he kept asking me and I [00:43:30] kept saying no, because I was always thinking about the future and I wasn’t married, but [00:43:35] I was dating [00:43:40] somebody from Cyprus. And there was a plan maybe [00:43:45] that we would go move to Cyprus. So I didn’t want to commit to buying [00:43:50] somewhere and then being connected to it and unable [00:43:55] to separate myself. And so I thought, until I get married, I don’t know where I’m going to [00:44:00] end up. Anyway, the relationship with the one from Cyprus fizzled out, and [00:44:05] I ended up dating women in America because I was studying in America throughout a lot of [00:44:10] my early years as an associate.

Payman Langroudi: Was that panky?

Raj Ahlowia: Well, there’s a reason for why I [00:44:15] was studying, which I’ll get to in a moment, and that that centres around a decision that he made. [00:44:20] My boss in 1995, in 19. So four years after [00:44:25] I started as a Viti in 1994 ish, the [00:44:30] government was starting to meddle with the NHS [00:44:35] contract and he didn’t like the changes, so he decided he was going to take [00:44:40] the practice private and me as an associate only four years out of dental school, didn’t [00:44:45] know what that meant. I thought it meant what the guys in Harley Street do, and [00:44:50] so I thought, I need to now learn something [00:44:55] new. So that triggered in 1994, 1995, [00:45:00] a a a a flip of a switch in my brain that [00:45:05] I have to learn how to do what Harley Street dentists do. So [00:45:10] I started a journey of travelling to the States to learn it because I didn’t know any better. I didn’t know about [00:45:15] courses in the UK.

Payman Langroudi: There weren’t many back then.

Raj Ahlowia: There weren’t many. So I [00:45:20] went west and I was spending so much of my [00:45:25] time travelling backwards and forwards to the States, it would become home [00:45:30] to three weeks of work and with the money that I’d made, go on another course. And, uh, travel [00:45:35] off to the States. And at the same time, my very good friend that I’d met at Viti, Hap [00:45:40] Gill, he was on a similar pathway because his practice was also doing the same thing they wanted. [00:45:45] They didn’t like the new 1995 contract. So he and I talked about where we were going to learn stuff, [00:45:50] and we were researching together, and he said, like, we’ve got to learn cosmetic [00:45:55] dentistry, we’ve got to learn functional occlusion and stuff like that. He said, why don’t you go to New York and learn [00:46:00] from Larry Rosenthal? I’m going to go to this institute in Florida [00:46:05] called the Pankey Institute, which teaches occlusion.

Payman Langroudi: Which was which were you with [00:46:10] Larry?

Raj Ahlowia: I went to learn with and he said, we’ll teach each other. So that [00:46:15] way we both have to do both. Yeah. So I went off to learned from Larry Rosenthal and, [00:46:20] um, that went on to off to learn occlusion and whatnot. And [00:46:25] Larry was teaching purely cosmetic dentistry. I [00:46:30] learned from Larry. Larry asked me, would I like to teach [00:46:35] for him? Because Larry was looking at the UK as an opportunity to tap the UK market, because [00:46:40] all these Brits suddenly coming across to America to learn from him. [00:46:45] So when Larry wanted to do his courses at the Eastman, he asked me, would I help [00:46:50] and teach? So I said yes. So then I was teaching [00:46:55] a bunch of other colleagues, some of them much older than me. How [00:47:00] to do verdantix. And [00:47:05] some of them ended up on this TV show, new TV show called Extreme Makeover. [00:47:10] People I’d literally just been teaching. But at the same time, I was learning [00:47:15] things from how about occlusion? That was making me question the order in which I [00:47:20] was doing things. And he said, look, you know, and this is what? Then [00:47:25] I shot off to Pankey to start learning at panki. I was learning at panki whilst also teaching for [00:47:30] Larry whilst also working at the practice. A few days, a few weeks, a month and [00:47:35] then taking time off and I was in a hurry to learn everything because what happened was [00:47:40] um, when I saw some of the people I’d just taught on the TV show, [00:47:45] I wrote to the producers of Extreme Makeover and I said, uh, I [00:47:50] watched your first season.

Raj Ahlowia: It was fantastic. But I’ve got a load of patients [00:47:55] who are not middle aged women who can’t afford this kind of dentistry but [00:48:00] need it. They don’t want it for cosmetic purposes. They need it because their mouths [00:48:05] are a wreck, and I can fix them. And I’m prepared to pay to do [00:48:10] all their work. And they’re young men in their 20s. And I think if you gave [00:48:15] me the opportunity to show what I can do for these young men, it will change the demographic of your [00:48:20] audience, because now men will watch the programme because you’re you’re targeting [00:48:25] middle aged women on your daytime TV, but young men or males in [00:48:30] general will be interested in your show. And also, the young women who are interested in young men will be interested in your [00:48:35] show. I sent this letter off to their registered address. Three different addresses I found. This [00:48:40] is all before email were the thing. And six months later [00:48:45] there was a phone call to the practice and I was with a patient and reception [00:48:50] came in and said, there’s a TV producer on the phone. I said, look, I’ll call [00:48:55] him back. And I knew straight away that it was them, and I knew why they’d be calling me because [00:49:00] they were interested in what I had to say. Anyway, I called the guy back and he goes, right, are you this [00:49:05] very arrogant young dentist telling me how he can change the demographic of my audience? And [00:49:10] I thought to myself, well, he rang me.

Raj Ahlowia: I don’t have to be embarrassed about what I wrote. [00:49:15] Um, I just said, yes, I am. And he said, very interesting [00:49:20] letter. We’ve had someone drop out from the show, and we have to [00:49:25] fill a certain number of shows for the TV station. Would [00:49:30] one of your young guys be interested in doing the show? And I said, I can ask and he said, look, [00:49:35] get them to borrow a video camera and make a cassette and send it to us because [00:49:40] we’re in a desperate hurry. So I got in touch with one of these young lads. He was a lovely young lad. I really liked [00:49:45] him, but he had severe rampant caries all over his mouth. And [00:49:50] I said, look, do you want me to sort out your teeth? Uh, I can do it and I can do it for [00:49:55] free. Um, but the one condition is you’re going to have to be on a TV show, and [00:50:00] you’re going to have to impress the TV show producers to get on the show. And he went, yeah, all [00:50:05] for it. And we went for it. And he made the tape. They liked him. They called him for an interview. [00:50:10] It was great, and they gave me the opportunity. So I did it and [00:50:15] he had a missing tooth and I thought, right, [00:50:20] look, this is a TV show that’s going to showcase the best of dentistry. [00:50:25]

Raj Ahlowia: I don’t want to be showing a bridge or a denture to fill this gap in his smile. We [00:50:30] need to show an implant. And I knew nothing about implants that wasn’t learning them [00:50:35] yet, but harp was. And I said to harp, I said, do you want to be on a TV show? [00:50:40] And he was like, yeah. And I said, well, I’ve got this gig. I’m going to be [00:50:45] on this TV show. This is what the case needs. Do you want to put an implant [00:50:50] in? And I’ll just say, I’ll work with you and I’ll get you on the show. They won’t be able to do anything about it because they’re [00:50:55] going to be rolling cameras. And we’ll introduce you and you do the implant. And [00:51:00] he goes, let’s do this. Let’s rent a practice in Harley Street, too, [00:51:05] because we knew that from the first season. They did a shot [00:51:10] of the street sign Harley Street. And we’re going to look like Harley Street [00:51:15] dentists. So we rented a practice in Harley Street and told the camera crew to come there with [00:51:20] the patient, who was my patient anyway, and hap put an implant [00:51:25] in, and it was the first implant ever shown on British TV. So [00:51:30] that’s our little claim to fame. Now, the format of the show is that you’ve got to finish [00:51:35] everything on this person within six weeks, and [00:51:40] they’re having all sorts done. They’re having, you know, the boob.

Payman Langroudi: Surgery.

Raj Ahlowia: Cosmetic surgery, [00:51:45] clothing, hair, makeup, all the rest of it, whatever. Um, so [00:51:50] there was a small window in which to do all the dentistry. And so I said, all right, we’ll [00:51:55] we’ll sleep the implant, bury it, and I’ll [00:52:00] put a conventional bridge over the top with temp bond. Um, and [00:52:05] as far as the world of TV is concerned, and what the editing will show [00:52:10] to the public is that there’s an implant in there, and that’s a fake tooth. But actually, [00:52:15] this young lad who’s now in his 40s, has got a bridge [00:52:20] sitting over a sleeping implant. Um, so with the magic of television, [00:52:25] we finished, uh, the makeover and, uh. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And did you only [00:52:30] do that one episode?

Raj Ahlowia: Oh, no. No, no. After that, they put me on, um, season two [00:52:35] gave me lots more cases to do, including other young males, uh, that [00:52:40] I had. Sorry. Season three. And then, um, before season four, [00:52:45] they made me the guy that pre-screens the cases. The reason for that [00:52:50] is a case was given to me that couldn’t be done in six [00:52:55] weeks. Uh, at least I didn’t think it could be done. It was a full mouth rehab case. And a [00:53:00] woman who had been through the windscreen of her dad’s VW beetle when [00:53:05] she was six years old, and her face was completely smashed. When she was six, her [00:53:10] father broke both legs in the accident and he took [00:53:15] his broken daughter and crawled to the nearest house, called [00:53:20] the hospital. Luckily, there was a visiting [00:53:25] maxillofacial surgeon from America who [00:53:30] was teaching some lecture or something. He’d [00:53:35] been called over. So this guy, this visiting American surgeon, and this [00:53:40] team at the local hospital reconstructed this six year old girl’s face the [00:53:45] best they could. But unfortunately, when they put her maxilla back together, it [00:53:50] was set back relative to her mandible. So she had [00:53:55] a pseudo class three for entire life while she was growing up. And [00:54:00] when she was in her teens at school, someone opened a door into her face [00:54:05] and smashed her anterior teeth in. So she had this bridgework as well. That was in a [00:54:10] pseudo class three, so it was all getting smashed up.

Raj Ahlowia: Now Her main deal was [00:54:15] that her nose, the tip of her nose, was set back behind where, [00:54:20] you know, her cheekbones ought to be, because her maxilla was so caved in and [00:54:25] she was accepted for the TV show. And the main deal that she was going to have was they were going [00:54:30] to do a boob job, and at the same time, they were going to take a rib and reconstruct her nose [00:54:35] cartilage with this rib and bring her nose forward. But there [00:54:40] was no, um, uh, um, provision made to do [00:54:45] anything about her maxilla being set back. And this smashed up dentistry from this [00:54:50] weird pseudo class three occlusion, and it got assigned to me. I [00:54:55] was, at the time, rapidly crash, coursing through [00:55:00] everything Pankey could teach because I was now a TV [00:55:05] dentist. I could do all the cosmetic stuff. I knew all that, hands down, [00:55:10] but it It was the wrong thing to learn first. What you really need to understand [00:55:15] is function first. And here was a case which had fundamentally got a functional [00:55:20] problem in the arrangement of maxilla to mandible. And I could [00:55:25] see that when it was brought to me. And they bring you the patient with [00:55:30] the camera crew and expect you to diagnose and treatment plan under the lights [00:55:35] and camera and everything rolling there and then and complete the case within [00:55:40] that six week window.

Payman Langroudi: Crazy isn’t it?

Raj Ahlowia: It’s crazy. It’s absolutely insane. [00:55:45] And you know, I didn’t realise before what I’d signed [00:55:50] up for. And now, if it was all veneer, it’s fine. You can kind of get away with it. But here was a [00:55:55] case that should never have been accepted. Yeah. And I said, after examining and taking all the pictures [00:56:00] and taking impressions and everything, I was thinking, how am I going to do this [00:56:05] case in six weeks? And I said, they’d shot all that. And then I [00:56:10] said to the producer, I said, you know, I don’t think this case can be done. Who? [00:56:15] Who do you not have someone approving these cases? And it was [00:56:20] a very well-known dentist at the time who had approved it. And I said, look, there’s [00:56:25] there’s fundamentally only a couple of ways this can be done. Her [00:56:30] jaw needs to be broken and brought back into position. It should be, which means it needs a full [00:56:35] class three osteotomy and the maxilla bringing forward at least a centimetre. I said, I [00:56:40] can’t do that, but if someone can do that and wire it and pin it or plate [00:56:45] it there, I can at least get the dentistry done and temporised to [00:56:50] look good. But fundamentally that that sort of class three has [00:56:55] got to be corrected. I said, who’s the guy doing the nose job? And [00:57:00] they said, oh, it’s this cosmetic surgeon in somewhere [00:57:05] in Kent. I said, okay, can you give me his number? And they said, yeah, so they’re there.

Raj Ahlowia: I [00:57:10] called from the practice reception and I got this guy on the phone and I said, listen, I’m, I hear you’re [00:57:15] the guy going to be doing the boob job and the nose job for this particular case, for the Extreme Makeover show. [00:57:20] He goes, yeah. I said, I’m the dentist on the case. And this lady’s, [00:57:25] um, got a class three malocclusion, but it’s a pseudo class three because a [00:57:30] maxilla is set smashed in. That’s why you’re doing the nose thing. He goes, [00:57:35] yeah. I said, any chance while you’re doing the nose job, you can do a Le four class [00:57:40] three osteotomy and bring a maxilla forward? I thought, he’s a plastic [00:57:45] surgeon. He’ll be able to do this. And if you pin it or screw it, plate it. Then [00:57:50] I can get the dentistry done afterwards, and it won’t be finished. But I’ll finish it after the camera crew go. [00:57:55] Um, and the patient would be okay with that coming back to me after the six weeks thing. [00:58:00] And he says, what do you want me to do? I said, a Le four class three osteotomy. [00:58:05] Bring a maxilla forward one centimetre and he goes, mate, I don’t know what you’re talking about. I just [00:58:10] do tits and noses. I was like, oh God, all right. So [00:58:15] I said to the producer, um, or the director. And on the day he was [00:58:20] there, I said, look, you need to call the guy who approved this case because I don’t know what to do.

Raj Ahlowia: I [00:58:25] said, next week I’m going off to meet my mentors in America. I [00:58:30] was doing another course at Pankey. I said, I’ve got everything I need for the case. [00:58:35] All the photographs, moulds, articulation, Facebook, everything. I’ll take [00:58:40] the case out there and see if they’ve got any ideas and if they can come up with a plan with me, then [00:58:45] maybe I can do it. But you need to talk to this other guy. So they rang this guy [00:58:50] up. I won’t name him. And he was like, oh yeah, I’ll take the case, bring your camera [00:58:55] crew over. I’ll snatch one episode off Raj and I’ll do it. And [00:59:00] so they went there with the camera crew And he looked at it and [00:59:05] then he realised it’s a mess and it can’t be done. [00:59:10] And he said to the patient with the cameras rolling, so here’s what we’re going to do. [00:59:15] We’re going to extract all your top teeth and we’re going to make you this amazing denture. [00:59:20] Now first of all, well, how is that television [00:59:25] quality? High level dentistry. It [00:59:30] isn’t. It isn’t the best of at the time, but [00:59:35] worse. The patient freaked out. And the patient went nuts and said, [00:59:40] there is no way I am letting that guy take my teeth out. I would rather be off [00:59:45] the show. So now the producers are on my case again, and they were like, right, [00:59:50] you’ve screwed us over because this woman is about to walk and we’re now short [00:59:55] a case for the for the episode.

Raj Ahlowia: We can’t get anybody in a hurry. And [01:00:00] I said, look. Whoa whoa whoa whoa. Whoa. I didn’t approve her for the show while [01:00:05] I was at a pancake. I waxed it up, and my mentors at Pankey [01:00:10] were looking at this articulation, and they were like, you’re seriously gonna take [01:00:15] this case? And I was like, yeah, if I protrude all the uppers [01:00:20] in the anterior segment and retro clean all the lows in the [01:00:25] lower anterior, I can get this into a class one relationship [01:00:30] from where she is. And they were looking at me like I’m nuts. [01:00:35] And I’m like, I’ve got to do this case because this for the TV show. And it ended [01:00:40] up being a 30 unit case to do it. Full [01:00:45] mouth rehab. And if there’s one case I regret [01:00:50] ever having taken on, it’s that one. But I pulled it off and [01:00:55] the woman was over the moon. Her family were over the moon. It looked incredible. [01:01:00] Her mother met me on the reveal day and said she [01:01:05] looks $1 million. Her husband met me and was shaking my hand and thanking me and [01:01:10] saying, how much would this have cost if we’d had done this? And I said, well, it’s about £40,000. [01:01:15] You know, to do this kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Pay, you.

Raj Ahlowia: Know, just I, [01:01:20] I said to these guys, I said, look, I’m going to do you a favour. I will do this for [01:01:25] free. That way it’s not going to cost you because I understand I’m going to get the exposure and this is going [01:01:30] to be the best marketing I can ever do for myself.

Payman Langroudi: Did your clinic go berserk? [01:01:35]

Raj Ahlowia: Yes it did. By all. In all the wrong ways. Oh, I was getting patients [01:01:40] from all over the world. I mean, I had patients [01:01:45] come from the Caribbean, from India, from [01:01:50] all over Europe. They’d seen me on the TV show. Weirdly, it was aired in [01:01:55] India and Australia. I don’t know how my cousins and uncles and aunties. So and, you know, and, [01:02:00] um. What I realised very [01:02:05] quickly was there’s two kinds of patients. The patients that I had [01:02:10] given to the show were patients who needed the dentistry. [01:02:15] They never wanted it. They had disease and [01:02:20] they were. And this lady who had the smashed up face that she never wanted to go [01:02:25] through the windscreen of a car, she needed the dental rehabilitation. She needed [01:02:30] the reconstruction of her nose. She didn’t want it. And those kind [01:02:35] of patients are incredibly grateful for what [01:02:40] you can do if you know how to do it. And even the ones who [01:02:45] come and need that kind of work and pay me for it, they understand the commitment [01:02:50] that they’re putting not only in time, um, in pain and suffering, going through [01:02:55] these treatments the cost. They understand all of that [01:03:00] and they appreciate it all. And at the end of it, they’re grateful. So those patients needed [01:03:05] it but never wanted, never wanted it. The [01:03:10] patient who wants cosmetic dentistry generally doesn’t need it. [01:03:15] They come because they want an outcome. Obviously there were those that did also. [01:03:20] But when you when when you have that kind of marketing that attracts [01:03:25] patient to the cosmetic element, the end outcome, the cosmetic element, [01:03:30] they have no concept of what how much dentistry it’s going to actually [01:03:35] be, how much suffering and pain and discomfort they’re going to have to go through to [01:03:40] achieve it.

Raj Ahlowia: And they’re not prepared for that. So they suffer more when [01:03:45] they have to endure it than the person who’s prepared for it. And they certainly don’t appreciate [01:03:50] how much it’s going to cost. There were some of them would would say, but [01:03:55] it only took you half an hour on the telly and it got no clue. They were watching a TV programme [01:04:00] and they see it’s done in half an hour, but then they think that that’s how long it takes in reality. I [01:04:05] mean, you know, there’s a there’s a level of ignorance that you expect from patients, but there’s another [01:04:10] level of ignorance beyond that. Some patients would, would contact [01:04:15] me, you know, with, with in their head. So I started to recognise very quickly [01:04:20] the type of patients I preferred treating in my practice now, still [01:04:25] working in Biggleswade in a humbly bubbly little general practice. That was [01:04:30] the fully all private practice in town, which was also [01:04:35] a new concept for the local community that, you know, they’re going to have to pay privately. So we lost a lot [01:04:40] of our NHS patients who just literally didn’t want to pay privately, but we kept a lot of patients [01:04:45] who were loyal to us, and that was great. But I was also also on TV. [01:04:50] I never marketed what I was doing on TV to my patients at [01:04:55] the general practice. If they just needed a filling and a cleaner polish, I just did a filling and a [01:05:00] cleaner polish. They discovered that I was doing this other stuff on TV, [01:05:05] and if they asked me about it and they wanted it, I would talk to them about [01:05:10] it and offer it to them.

Raj Ahlowia: But I was turning down more patients than I was [01:05:15] accepting to treat because they didn’t need it. And I was explaining to them that you don’t need it. I mean, I had [01:05:20] one patient who I’ve known him since he was a kid. He’s been BAFTA nominated as an actor [01:05:25] now, and he came to me in his 20s about cosmetic dentistry and I said, look, you’re [01:05:30] a character actor. If I do all this beautiful cosmetic [01:05:35] dentistry on you, it’s going to change the roles that you’ll be suitable [01:05:40] for. And even casting directors are going to look at your teeth and go, well, that’s a mismatch to the characters. [01:05:45] I said, think of people like Steve Buscemi. Steve Buscemi has got teeth that are all over the place. If [01:05:50] you suddenly gave him perfect, you know, Hollywood [01:05:55] makeover dentistry. He’s going to not look the [01:06:00] part for the characters he plays. And you’re that level of actor. So [01:06:05] he said, great, let’s just do a clean and a polish. I went, fantastic. So I turned down, [01:06:10] you know, £20,000 makeover from a Hollywood, you know, A-list actor [01:06:15] who is in that kind of movies. I turned down doing 20,000 [01:06:20] because I’ve known him since he’s a kid, and I know it’s wrong for him and he doesn’t need that. [01:06:25] He might have wanted it, but he doesn’t need it. And so I turned down. [01:06:30] I turned down a lot of work because I preferred being the humbly bumbling [01:06:35] general dentist. But I knew that if a patient needed that, [01:06:40] I had the ability.

Payman Langroudi: But do you agree that it’s not your decision? It’s the patient’s decision. You know, like in [01:06:45] in terms of consent, I mean, unless you’re not consenting.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah I. [01:06:50]

Payman Langroudi: Do.

Raj Ahlowia: And but I also know I don’t have to do the [01:06:55] dentistry that they want. Yeah, there’s plenty of other dentists out there who can do it. So [01:07:00] there was very few big cosmetic cases that I took [01:07:05] on of patients that I didn’t know, patients of my own who needed it [01:07:10] and wanted it. Great.

Payman Langroudi: But didn’t the practice get flooded with patients because of the TV? [01:07:15] Yeah. So you turn most of those down, did you?

Raj Ahlowia: A lot. I took I took on some, but [01:07:20] I would field them. By this time. Email was now a thing. I would field [01:07:25] them via email and they were all over the place. And I would meet them sometimes in cafes, restaurants, hotels [01:07:30] where I was lecturing. Um, there was one I remember, uh, it was, um, [01:07:35] a young girl who had, um, uh, amelogenesis [01:07:40] imperfecta. So all these tiny, diminutive teeth. And, [01:07:45] uh, She was somewhere up in Liverpool and [01:07:50] I was going up to Manchester for something. And I contacted a really, [01:07:55] really good friend of mine who worked in Manchester, and I said, listen, do you mind if I examine this girl [01:08:00] at your practice? Sit in with me. And, um, so we [01:08:05] met up at this. Sorry, my phone’s ringing stopped. Um, [01:08:10] so we met up at his practice. Patient came over and he was sitting [01:08:15] with me, and we examined her. And it was a very clear case of amelogenesis imperfecta. So there’s all these dentine [01:08:20] shapes with no enamel on top. And I said, well, you know, none of [01:08:25] these teeth need prepping. All they need is the right shape enamel [01:08:30] putting on top. This would be a slam dunk case for someone with a cerec machine. [01:08:35] And I said, well, my colleague here, he’s a brilliant dentist and he’s [01:08:40] very versed in cerec. Um, why don’t you just bring your daughter to see [01:08:45] him. So I gave another £20,000 worth case away to my friend [01:08:50] because the patient’s right there. He can come from Liverpool to Manchester very easily. So, [01:08:55] you know, there were cases that needed needed help. [01:09:00] It wasn’t a case of wanting just cosmetics. So I would [01:09:05] filter the cases and I would talk to the ones that needed the dentistry and helped them [01:09:10] either with a referral to somebody more local to them, or I’d do it myself.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:09:15] a bit strange for a cosmetic dentist to be saying this.

Raj Ahlowia: But why not a cosmetic dentist? Yeah, I hate that label. Yeah, [01:09:20] I walked away from.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I wouldn’t characterise you as a [01:09:25] cosmetic dentist.

Raj Ahlowia: I walked away from that side of dentistry right in the early stages of the bacd. [01:09:30] Because. Because fundamentally.

Payman Langroudi: Occlusion. Occlusion expert.

Raj Ahlowia: That’s more like [01:09:35] it. Because to me, that is fundamentally overarching, [01:09:40] um, the cosmetic side is what [01:09:45] the patient wants it to look like at the end. So if there’s if there’s a full [01:09:50] mouth rehabilitation case to be done. If you don’t [01:09:55] make it cosmetically pleasing, in the end, the patient’s unhappy. [01:10:00] You could have done the best implant work. The best grafting work. [01:10:05] Sinus lifts all the perio preparation, temporary ization for [01:10:10] six months or whatever. Planning and got it all functionally [01:10:15] pristine. But if it doesn’t look nice, the [01:10:20] patient’s going to complain about that. So you have to understand cosmetics [01:10:25] as part of the full mouth rehabilitation learning [01:10:30] process. But beyond the cosmetics, the one thing that has to be [01:10:35] perfect or as close to perfect as you can get it or has to be right for that [01:10:40] patient is the function, because if the function is wrong, it doesn’t matter how [01:10:45] good you got that cosmetic end result, they’re going to smash it to pieces. Now they’re not all going [01:10:50] to smash it to pieces. But what I what I discovered as I was doing a lot of these cases was [01:10:55] when I was looking at what has caused this patient to get this way. [01:11:00]

Raj Ahlowia: There was a huge amount of them that the disease [01:11:05] process was a functional problem. So they were smashing their own teeth up because [01:11:10] of their own function or the function that had been given [01:11:15] to them on previous dentistry, and they were breaking it apart like the woman with the bridge in [01:11:20] a pseudo class three, that she was just shattering all the enamel off it, you know. So, so [01:11:25] where there was a functional element in the, um, [01:11:30] aetiology, you have to factor [01:11:35] that their function if you don’t get it right for them if, [01:11:40] say, they’re a power function or whatever, if you don’t get it right for them, they’re just going to destroy [01:11:45] your dentistry too. And all dentistry is ultimately [01:11:50] going to get destroyed. You will never get it perfect. And in a way that it’s indestructible. [01:11:55] Um, so the most dentistry you’ll do in your career if you’re in a practice [01:12:00] like I was for my entire career from 33 years. You’re the [01:12:05] the most dentistry you’re going to do is repairs on your own work.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Raj Ahlowia: It’s all going to come back [01:12:10] needing to be done. Because one of the things I said to my students is none of us [01:12:15] in dentistry are as good as the dentist in the sky, and none of us have [01:12:20] the materials of Mother Nature, that big dentist in the sky. His work and Mother Nature’s [01:12:25] work is the best dentistry there is. So if you can maintain it [01:12:30] without it having to ever be touched by one of your drills or lasers [01:12:35] or whatever tool To the show, you know, then that’s [01:12:40] the best that can be in the patient’s mouth. Now, it may not [01:12:45] be pretty and aligned beautifully, but there are ways you can help them with [01:12:50] that. But the moment you take a drill to it, or the moment it’s got caries or whatever, then [01:12:55] their work, that beautiful stuff that Mother Nature and the big dentist in the [01:13:00] sky gave them is ruined, right? And it will [01:13:05] always need maintenance. Your work is not going to last [01:13:10] that well as a pristine tooth.

Payman Langroudi: So your your sort [01:13:15] of interest in, in occlusion. Of course you did all of panki did [01:13:20] you. I mean, how did you end up being the seclusion guy? Did you just keep on following?

Raj Ahlowia: What [01:13:25] happened was I was in a hurry to learn all the party, and I was going out [01:13:30] to the States a lot. Yeah. And learning it all in a hurry, [01:13:35] back to back, sometimes doing back to back weeks. And the people [01:13:40] that were teaching me at Pankey there were only four. They were discussing the fact [01:13:45] that, you know, I was doing something that nobody had ever done before. They were telling me that the average Pankey [01:13:50] student spends a decade doing all of their continuum. They [01:13:55] do a module, they go and implement that module. Then they come back and learn the next bit [01:14:00] and they implement that bit. Yeah. And I said, well, then [01:14:05] they’re taking ten years to get the knowledge. The final bit. I said I need it now because [01:14:10] I’m doing it now. Yeah. And they knew I was doing it now because I was doing it on bloody TV show. [01:14:15] Yeah. So by the end of that year, they had [01:14:20] gotten to know me really well, much better than the other students that were coming [01:14:25] once a year. I was there ten weeks out of that [01:14:30] year.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: At the end of it, They said, would you like to teach for us [01:14:35] as a visiting instructor? Because they could see I was already [01:14:40] doing it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: And I said, yeah, I’d love to. So right [01:14:45] out of being, um, a student, I became a Pankey visiting [01:14:50] instructor.

Payman Langroudi: Which module did you teach?

Raj Ahlowia: I was teaching module [01:14:55] one, the very first one. But then very soon after that [01:15:00] they had a they had a group. It was 100 people strong. It was their [01:15:05] clinical board of education. And they put me on [01:15:10] that.

Payman Langroudi: Does it always work like that? Do you always end up teaching model one, module one and then work your way through the module? [01:15:15]

Raj Ahlowia: No, I don’t think it works like that. It comes down to what you’re most suited to. And, um, [01:15:20] so, uh, I just ended up teaching module one. [01:15:25] Yeah. Um, but I would also be invited to [01:15:30] come over every September for their big annual meeting of these hundred, where [01:15:35] they’d make decisions and decide how things were going to progress and [01:15:40] make changes and all the rest of it. Now, the problem with that was their weekend [01:15:45] always seemed to clash, or their week always seemed to clash with my birthday. So [01:15:50] I was always leaving my family on my birthday week to go and be [01:15:55] at a meeting with these hundred other people. And this [01:16:00] was right about the time where video conferencing over the internet [01:16:05] could have been done. And myself and two other Brits [01:16:10] were the only three non Americans having to fly over there, and it was just getting a bit much. [01:16:15] I was also at the same time as that was going on, I ended up being, um, [01:16:20] a visiting faculty instructor for Spear in Arizona. [01:16:25] Um, weirdly, I.

Payman Langroudi: Had you completed all of Speer as well.

Raj Ahlowia: No. [01:16:30] No. How I met Frank was a bit strange. I [01:16:35] was on this journey of learning. I completed All Panky, and I said to Gary [01:16:40] Durwood, who was my my mentor at panky. I said to Gary, you know, what’s [01:16:45] the next thing for me to learn? And he said, well, you know, you really ought to listen [01:16:50] to Frank Speer. I said, okay. Who’s he? I had no [01:16:55] clue who Frank was. And he said, look, Frank is coming to give [01:17:00] a one week masterclass here at panky. You should sign up for that. So [01:17:05] I took Gary at his word, and I signed up for the one week masterclass with. [01:17:10] With Frank at panky. And I had a favourite seat at panky. It [01:17:15] was in the corner at the back row. So I sat in my seat. Frank [01:17:20] comes in and didn’t know what he looked like before he turned up. And Frank’s method [01:17:25] when he’s got these little masterclasses in 24 of us and all 24 [01:17:30] were Pankey alumni, and almost all 24 were Pankey visiting instructors. [01:17:35] Because we’d got the early information that Frank is going to be doing this masterclass. [01:17:40] So we got in quick and booked it. And Frank’s methodology is [01:17:45] that he puts together the week based on what the people in [01:17:50] the masterclass want to learn. So he started with the first person in the front row and he said, why don’t [01:17:55] you tell me your name? Tell me a little bit about you and your dentistry, where you’re on your career, and tell [01:18:00] me, what’s the major burning issue that you’d like to see covered this week? And [01:18:05] it went through 23 people.

Raj Ahlowia: And then it got to me and I’d heard 23 [01:18:10] problems that I don’t really have. Gary was standing in the doorway over here. Frank’s [01:18:15] at the front. I’m in the corner at the back row. And I said to Frank, I said, listen, [01:18:20] Frank, I don’t know who you are. I’d never heard of you. It’s only [01:18:25] Gary over there. He told me I ought to do this week with you. I don’t really have any problems [01:18:30] with my dentistry, but I’m on a journey of learning. And Gary said, you’re the next person [01:18:35] in my journey that I should be listening to. But what I’ve just heard is 23 problems that I [01:18:40] don’t have. And I said, I don’t really have a [01:18:45] burning issue in dentistry. And if I gave you one, then all I’d get out of the week is the answer to one [01:18:50] problem. I said, Frank, what I’d rather hear from you is [01:18:55] how you think. I want to understand the process by which you solve problems. [01:19:00] Because if you’re the man, if you’re the man who knows all the answers to all the problems, [01:19:05] either you’ve got somebody, you go and ask or [01:19:10] you have to figure out the answers yourself. So I want to know next who [01:19:15] the people you ask the solutions to problems that you’ve got because they’re the [01:19:20] next person in my journey. Or you tell me how you solve problems. [01:19:25] And Frank never really been spoken to by anybody like that [01:19:30] before, I guess I don’t know.

Raj Ahlowia: But Gary knew what I’m like, and he was just giggling in the doorway [01:19:35] because he knew what I’m like. And I was very honest. I was just telling it straight like it is. You’re [01:19:40] a person in my journey, and then I want to know who you learn from. That’s the next person in my journey. And [01:19:45] so Frank said, well, you know, that’s really interesting. He goes, let me start by answering you. So [01:19:50] he started to tell a story about how he grew up with a father who was a mechanic. [01:19:55] And even as a small, very young toddler, his father would speak [01:20:00] to him like an adult when it came to the mechanics of cars. And he explained where [01:20:05] I’ve got a problem with the car, I’ve got to think through what could it be? And I have to [01:20:10] mentally imagine, rather than test it on the car. I’ve got to mentally imagine what will happen if I do [01:20:15] this or do this and figure out which is the best solution, and then do it. But do it in a way [01:20:20] that I don’t mess the car up more. And Frank said, you know, that’s how [01:20:25] I approach problems in dentistry. I think up solutions that are reversible and [01:20:30] measurable, testable. And then I execute the one that I think [01:20:35] is right. But I’ve also got a group of colleagues that I work with who I go to [01:20:40] to ask their opinions on complex cases. And as a group we come up with the best solution. [01:20:45] And it’s been about 45 minutes talking to the group about this [01:20:50] and answering my question.

Raj Ahlowia: He goes, is that good for you? And I said, yeah, great. He said, well, [01:20:55] you’ve got now an easy week. I said, yeah, I’ve got an easy week. Now at the end of that day, [01:21:00] they had planned that we were all going to go out to this Marina [01:21:05] with a lovely restaurant and have drinks. And Gary told [01:21:10] me, Frank, you won’t see Frank there. And I said, why not? He goes, well, Frank doesn’t like socialising [01:21:15] with his students. And I said, why? He goes, well, you know, they [01:21:20] constantly just keep bombarding him with questions. Now, I didn’t understand that until [01:21:25] I became a lecturer. And I understood that the students want from [01:21:30] you even in the break times, even in the lunch break. And Frank needed [01:21:35] to decompress after a long day like that. And he didn’t want to be socialising with the students, [01:21:40] so he never did. And I thought, oh, I’m not having that. So I [01:21:45] went up to him at the lunch break. I go, Frank, we’re going to have drinks. And I heard he’d like scotch. [01:21:50] We’re going to do some shots and scotch. And I badgered him and bombarded [01:21:55] him on just talking about whisky and nothing to do with dentistry at the lunch break. Completely [01:22:00] the opposite of what everybody else in the group was doing. And I said, Frank, you’re coming to this bloody [01:22:05] dinner tonight. Be sure of it. And I did that hand magic trick. [01:22:10] Him and Frank do it.

Payman Langroudi: Frank can do it.

Raj Ahlowia: And there was [01:22:15] another guy, another dentist called Larry Brewer. And Larry Brewer is an interesting guy because he’s also [01:22:20] a stage comedian. And Larry could do it. And Frank was like, he got really frustrated [01:22:25] and I got Larry Brewer can do it. I need to know how to do this trick. And we had a great [01:22:30] time, and it was nothing to do with dentistry. There was no talk about dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: When [01:22:35] you the way that you asked that question to Frank spear, [01:22:40] do you do that to be provocative or do you, [01:22:45] do you are you not self-aware in so much as I’m not.

Raj Ahlowia: Self-aware, I [01:22:50] just thought it’s natural.

Payman Langroudi: Or are you just just saying, like the brain mouth connection? You [01:22:55] just you just say, just say whatever’s in your head and you’re cool with it.

Raj Ahlowia: My dad was a very good communicator. [01:23:00] Yeah, he could read people, and he knew what the right thing [01:23:05] to say was to help people get somewhere. Now, that’s a nice talent to have. Yeah. [01:23:10] Um, I’m not quite as natural as my dad, but I’m quite [01:23:15] good at reading people because I’m good at reading faces, because I’m constantly looking at faces and I can read [01:23:20] their emotional state.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it was an amazing outcome there and then here because it’s Frank spear, it’s [01:23:25] America where you can kind of get away with this sort of thing.

Raj Ahlowia: What I figured was if [01:23:30] I’m just like every other student and I’m just badgering him about [01:23:35] dentistry, I’m just like every other student to him. Yeah, but if I come at him [01:23:40] another way because I wanted him to come and join us, I was like, I was surprised that he wasn’t going.

Payman Langroudi: No, I meant the initial question that [01:23:45] you know about.

Raj Ahlowia: Tell me how you learned how you solve problems. I want to [01:23:50] learn. No, that was genuinely what I wanted to know.

Payman Langroudi: You just wanted to know that.

Raj Ahlowia: That was because. [01:23:55]

Payman Langroudi: I guess it’s your one moment to talk in the events.

Raj Ahlowia: I had to give a reason [01:24:00] for what I wanted, why I was there, what I wanted to learn from Frank. [01:24:05] And honestly, Gary had begged him up like he’s the best dentist in the world. [01:24:10] And maybe he is right. And so I thought, well, if he is, [01:24:15] then he might be. He might not be. And if he isn’t, I want to know who above him he [01:24:20] goes to for advice. So he’s genuinely asking, thinking of him like another stepping stone in my [01:24:25] journey. And it was genuine. The question, and it was also genuine, that answering [01:24:30] the questions of 23 problems is interesting. That’s fine, but [01:24:35] how did you work out the answers is more interesting to me because I’m a problem [01:24:40] solver.

Payman Langroudi: Delegates delegates don’t want that. I mean, it’s the right way to teach, the right way to teach. [01:24:45] Definitely. But I find delegates want like a, B, c do this, do this, do [01:24:50] this. That’s okay. They want it. Cookie cutter.

Raj Ahlowia: That’s okay. And that’s okay. If you give them that [01:24:55] that’s okay.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. If you don’t think it’s the right way to teach I think the right teach is what you’re saying. The thought [01:25:00] process. Right.

Raj Ahlowia: The thought processes. That’s that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Is that how you teach?

Raj Ahlowia: In a way. Yeah, yeah, [01:25:05] in a way.

Payman Langroudi: The thought process.

Raj Ahlowia: I tell my students, my thought processes [01:25:10] as I’m You know, telling them, you know, everything [01:25:15] that I teach in, in dentistry because my, my courses when I was teaching them were fully comprehensive. [01:25:20] I taught the function, but I also taught the aesthetics, I taught the communication, I [01:25:25] taught the photography, I taught about all the individual branches [01:25:30] of dentistry and how they all connect together. So my course, I often described it as [01:25:35] a jigsaw box cover. Everybody else’s course is a piece [01:25:40] in the box. Now you can go on one course and you’ve got one piece of the puzzle. [01:25:45] You can go another course, you’ve got another piece of the puzzle, but you don’t know how to connect them together unless [01:25:50] you’ve got the box cover and nobody gives you the box cover. So my course [01:25:55] was the jigsaw puzzle box cover. There’s all the components are there. I’m going to [01:26:00] show you how they all fit together.

Payman Langroudi: How long was it?

Raj Ahlowia: 44 hours.

Payman Langroudi: So what? Three, [01:26:05] four days?

Raj Ahlowia: Four days? 11 hours each. Now, when you’re teaching for 11 [01:26:10] hours. It’s tiring, but you’re not even stopping in the break [01:26:15] times because in the break times, they’re on you again. Yeah. Now, in [01:26:20] an 11 hour course, there’s going to be a few people, excuse me, who are nodding [01:26:25] off.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: And you can help them to come back in by because [01:26:30] it’s interactive. Posing a question to them to help them bring them back. You can see they’re they’re [01:26:35] flagging a bit or they’re not getting something a bit. But you as the teacher at [01:26:40] the front, you can’t take a break. You can’t flag. And I didn’t mind also [01:26:45] socialising because I know the students want that time with you. They want [01:26:50] to, um, talk about other things, but also about things [01:26:55] in dentistry that aren’t part of the course. Practice life, anything, whatever [01:27:00] it might be. Journey next person to talk to. So I would go out for dinner with them. And so [01:27:05] the thing never ended. It was, you know, till midnight, 1 a.m. sometimes, and then you’re [01:27:10] back the next morning, 8 a.m. you have to be sharp and you have to stay sharp. So I would do it in two [01:27:15] chunks of two days. And on the third day, on a Sunday, I would be dead. [01:27:20] I would be cramping because I’d been standing up all day and I’m talking [01:27:25] all day. My voice would be gone. But also the mental exhaustion [01:27:30] from having to stay focussed and concentrate because you don’t know what questions are going to fire at you. And it could be [01:27:35] anything in dentistry, because your course is about everything in dentistry, and [01:27:40] they might be struggling with an ortho element. They might be struggling with sinus [01:27:45] lift technique or, um, implant integration, or it doesn’t have to be just about function [01:27:50] or some concept of communication, photography, blah, blah blah. Whatever [01:27:55] it is, talk to them about it. Tell them your experiences.

Payman Langroudi: You’re the [01:28:00] best way to learn is to learn by looking at your own errors [01:28:05] the way you were would describe it, and not many people have the privilege of spending that many [01:28:10] years in one place. You’re right. Um, what were key moments, key [01:28:15] failures that you saw that kind of shifted your mindset and thought, I’ve got to do things differently, [01:28:20] or I should have.

Raj Ahlowia: There was certainly that case of the lady that went through the windshield. Yeah. [01:28:25] She was the case that made me realise about the difference between a cosmetic [01:28:30] patient and a patient in need. And I didn’t want to be a cosmetic dentist, [01:28:35] so I shied away from that label. I shied away from everything to do with cosmetic dentistry. [01:28:40] I was more interested in the functional and rehabilitative, rehabilitative, [01:28:45] rehabilitative type of dentistry. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Did [01:28:50] you see, for instance, the work that you’ve done, the Rosenthal type work come back stained [01:28:55] and, you know, chipped, maybe.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. Yeah. And I would do whatever it needed to put [01:29:00] it right. Um, but luckily, because I was on such a rapid transition [01:29:05] within a couple of years.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t do that many.

Raj Ahlowia: There wasn’t that many. Yeah, there [01:29:10] wasn’t that many. Yeah. And because.

Payman Langroudi: The majority.

Raj Ahlowia: Of cases.

Payman Langroudi: The majority of the work [01:29:15] that you did over all these years, was it sort of the big cases were full mouth rehabs. [01:29:20]

Raj Ahlowia: 99% of the dentistry is bog standard check-up two fillings?

Payman Langroudi: No, but the big cases were [01:29:25] like full mouth rehab. That became a thing that.

Raj Ahlowia: Were full mouth [01:29:30] rehab cases. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Did you have to replace those along the way as well?

Raj Ahlowia: Thankfully not too many.

Payman Langroudi: Weirdly, [01:29:35] bits here and there. Right. Like 1 or 2.

Raj Ahlowia: Interestingly, one of the first full mouth [01:29:40] rehab cases I did was on this incredibly [01:29:45] powerful businessman who, um, you know, he, [01:29:50] he, um, buys whole chains of shops and owns [01:29:55] them, and. He it’s interesting how he [01:30:00] became a patient. He was the first patient to contact the practice. After [01:30:05] I’d put an advert in our local village magazine about [01:30:10] implant dentistry, and he spent £40,000 on a full mouth rehab. [01:30:15] About. Oh, God. 20 odd years ago.

Payman Langroudi: When £40,000 was money. Yeah. [01:30:20] Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: And interestingly, he never really came back [01:30:25] until a couple of weeks ago.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Raj Ahlowia: He’s come back because he [01:30:30] had fractured as a conia bridge and [01:30:35] it needed to be replaced. Everything else in his mouth was great. Just the bridge [01:30:40] needed replacing. I’m actually retired, but my associate is handling the case, [01:30:45] and she asked me to pop in and have a look and give her advice on because she didn’t [01:30:50] know what she was going to find underneath. And actually, when we looked at it underneath, the implants were great. [01:30:55] Bone levels were fantastic on the radiographs. Whoever had been going to has been looking [01:31:00] after it really well and he’s been looking after it really well. So it’s really nice to see one [01:31:05] of my first major, um, full mouth rehabs.

Payman Langroudi: Do [01:31:10] you still mentor your associates?

Raj Ahlowia: Uh, yeah, when they want it. Two of them were former students [01:31:15] who’d done my course. Um, one of them was a very good friend of one of them. [01:31:20] Um. Uh, since then, I’ve taken on an implantology who was [01:31:25] mentored by somebody that was my student 15 years ago. And he’s taken [01:31:30] over all of my implant work and is doing wonderful things. He’s very well known himself. [01:31:35] Um, I won’t name. I don’t embarrass people, but, uh, you know, he’s a big name in Implantology.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:31:40] could name him Prav.

Raj Ahlowia: Cairo. I mean, he’s he’s fantastic. When I, when I retired, I [01:31:45] was forced to retire. Um, I’ve got no feeling in my left hand. Oh, um, due to a [01:31:50] problem in my spine. In my neck. Um, so I’ve got a disc that is slipped [01:31:55] forwards, and it’s kinking my spinal cord. And there’s [01:32:00] separate, um, osteophytes on the the, um, uh, [01:32:05] vertebra. That is caused my arm to have [01:32:10] spasming lightning bolts of pain, and my hand has gone numb. So I’ve got [01:32:15] medication for, uh, the pain which suppresses the pain. It doesn’t [01:32:20] get rid of it, but it suppresses it. Um, but it does nothing for the numbness in my head. So this all happened [01:32:25] about a year ago, and I got in touch with Pav. Pav was in between [01:32:30] kind of, uh, jobs. Jobs he wasn’t. He was. He [01:32:35] was kind of looking for something new. And I said, look, this has happened to me. Would you mind stepping in and taking [01:32:40] over all my, uh, implant work? And I said to my associates, would you like to [01:32:45] take over all my patients? I split my patients between the associates. And I [01:32:50] spoke to all the patients that came in for six months individually and explained [01:32:55] that I’m retiring, and, um. All my associates are lovely, and, uh. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How [01:33:00] does it psychologically leave you? I mean, okay, physically, you’ve got the problem with your hand and pain, but psychologically, [01:33:05] was it difficult stopping?

Raj Ahlowia: No. It’s like flipping a switch. I’m very good at that. I [01:33:10] can just flip a switch in my head. That’s it. The dentistry switch is off. I’m out. I’m done. [01:33:15] Don’t regret it, I. There’s nothing in my career I’ve regretted doing. [01:33:20] Um. Everything is. Do you miss it? No, no, I’ve got enough other [01:33:25] interests that I’ve now got time to explore and develop and indulge [01:33:30] in and enjoy. Um. It happened at a time where, um, [01:33:35] my mother needed, um, more 1 to 1 care. And [01:33:40] so my mum lives with me most of the years. Then from now. And then she goes and stays with my sister or my [01:33:45] brother gives me a little bit of a break, um, so I can take her to all the hospital appointments [01:33:50] that that was really useful, that it all happened at exactly the same time. Um, [01:33:55] so yeah, me and my mum hang out at home and I take her to her things and I go to my [01:34:00] hospital appointments and I indulge in my photography. I’ve seen photography. [01:34:05]

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about that. I mean, I mean, obviously photography from what did it start with? Dental. And then.

Raj Ahlowia: Well, I mentioned [01:34:10] that I had a different first job, which was my summer job as a teenager when I was a kid. And, [01:34:15] um, all of my little friend group, when I was about 15 or [01:34:20] 16, um, they had little Saturday jobs and I thought, I’ll get a Saturday job, too. And the girls in [01:34:25] our little group all had Saturday jobs at Boots in Saint Albans. And it’s a big boot. And [01:34:30] back in the day it was like a proper department store. It sold [01:34:35] computers and cameras and all sorts. [01:34:40] And I applied for a job and I got the job and, [01:34:45] uh, they decided, what can they put a 16 year old geeky kid on? [01:34:50] I will put them on computers and cameras. This. I was more on the camera side than [01:34:55] the computer side, and I knew more about computers at that [01:35:00] time because I was one of those computer geeky teenagers and I knew all the computers, but I [01:35:05] ended up being put on cameras. And so at the age of 16 or 17, I had [01:35:10] to very rapidly learn everything I could about [01:35:15] all the different models of cameras that they had. They had all sorts of Nikon F1’s, [01:35:20] um, canon E1’s, minolta, um, all SLR, um, [01:35:25] uh, analogue. It was no digital back then, but they also had all the way down to the instamatics [01:35:30] and instamatics and the Polaroids. I remember Kodak instant cameras [01:35:35] at the time, and we used to take film and do processing, um.

Payman Langroudi: As [01:35:40] part of boots as part of the job.

Raj Ahlowia: But we had the full range of incredibly [01:35:45] expensive cameras that I had to learn.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s where it [01:35:50] started.

Raj Ahlowia: I learned. I learned what the differences were between them, what all the functions were, what [01:35:55] you know, f stops and ISO and shutter speeds, all that meant. And [01:36:00] so before I started at guys, I already already had [01:36:05] a very keen interest in photography and had a pretty expensive camera. [01:36:10] So at our freshers ball, I was the guy with an SLR [01:36:15] camera with a boom arm and a flashgun on it, taking pictures and throughout [01:36:20] predated dentistry. It predated dentistry and I.

Payman Langroudi: But then these projects that you’ve been doing, some [01:36:25] of them I saw like high end fashion type projects.

Raj Ahlowia: I’ve been doing that level [01:36:30] of photography for about a decade. I’ve been doing more of those now. Um, [01:36:35] actually, I was doing more of them before, but [01:36:40] because I’m looking after my mum a lot, I had more selective now, um, [01:36:45] of what I do, um, and what I arranged to do, what [01:36:50] I take on doing. But I get approached by a lot of aspiring models wanting [01:36:55] headshots and glamour shots. And again, I reject more than I accept [01:37:00] because I don’t have as much time. I do some Dental [01:37:05] practice photography, so headshots for practices and [01:37:10] and for their websites I’ll do photography. Um, yeah, I enjoy [01:37:15] that. Um, it’s not the only hobby I had throughout my career, but it’s [01:37:20] it’s one that I indulge a bit now. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What was the other one?

Raj Ahlowia: Oh. Flying aeroplanes. [01:37:25] Remember?

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Have you got a pilot’s license?

Raj Ahlowia: I wanted to be an airline.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, of course, of course, of course.

Raj Ahlowia: My first [01:37:30] NHS paycheque. I think it was the first paycheque. I blew [01:37:35] it all on flying lessons. That’s. That’s a funny story. I was, um. Got [01:37:40] the job in Biggleswade. I was living [01:37:45] at home with my parents. It was September. I was sitting in the garden, one [01:37:50] of the last nice sunny days of summer. And this tiny little aeroplane [01:37:55] flew across the sky. It was a beautiful, pure blue sky. And [01:38:00] I had the local Saint Albans. If you’re from Saint Albans, Saint Albans, you [01:38:05] call it snowbirds. So I had the local snowbirds rag in front of me. I was flicking [01:38:10] through it and got to the, you know, little box ad pages, and there was this tiny little box [01:38:15] ad, and all it had was a graphic of a little plane, just like the one that had flown over. And [01:38:20] underneath it said trial flying lesson, £50 and a phone [01:38:25] number in Watford. Leavesden Aerodrome, which is now Warner [01:38:30] Brothers Studios, where they have the Harry Potter world. But back then it was [01:38:35] a a little local flying strip, uh, airstrip with [01:38:40] a flying club. So I rang this number and a Welsh guy. [01:38:45] Young Welsh guy picked up the phone and I said, I’ve just seen your advert in the Saint [01:38:50] Albans paper about flying lessons for £50. And he goes, yeah, I said, I’d [01:38:55] like to do that. And he said, okay, well we can probably fit you in in about three weeks [01:39:00] time, blah, blah, blah. I’ve got a date here. And I said, oh, um, I [01:39:05] was hoping to do it today. It’s such a lovely day, and I’ve just seen this little plane fly over.

Raj Ahlowia: And he goes, [01:39:10] well, um, can’t really do it today. I mean, the the planes get booked out [01:39:15] and there’s people on lessons and all the rest of it. Um, so we haven’t really got anything until, you know, a couple [01:39:20] of weeks time. I went, oh, okay, then let’s book it in. So we booked it in. Put the [01:39:25] phone down, came back out to the garden and sit with my mum. And, uh, another [01:39:30] little tiny plane flies over and I’m, like, itchy. [01:39:35] And, um, this is just how I am when I want to learn something. I’m itching to do it there and [01:39:40] then. So I picked up the phone. I rang him again, and I go, are you sure there’s [01:39:45] no way we can do it today? And he goes, look. Planes are coming back [01:39:50] and planes are going out. Planes coming back. If a plane comes back early before it’s booked [01:39:55] to go out again, then there’s an opportunity that we might have 20 minutes, half an hour to do it. But you’re [01:40:00] going to have to come over here and sit and wait. If you’re prepared to do that, then okay. But I can’t guarantee [01:40:05] that a window will open up. But if that’s okay with you, that’s okay with you. So I [01:40:10] said, fine. Yeah, I’ll shoot over. So we lived only about a ten minute drive away from Saint Albans [01:40:15] to Watford. It’s only about ten minutes. Uh, back then, when the traffic wasn’t as bad as it is now, and [01:40:20] I shot down to Leavesden and, um, met this guy. Vaughn Jeffries [01:40:25] was his name.

Raj Ahlowia: And he said, right. Well, funnily enough, since you called, we’ve had on the [01:40:30] radio that someone’s coming back and the plane they’re bringing back is not due to go out again for [01:40:35] about 45 minutes. So we’ve got a window, but before we’ll do a little bit of [01:40:40] ground school. So we’re going to classroom. Is that okay with you? And then when the plane comes in, uh, we’ll [01:40:45] take it off in about 15 minutes or so. I said great. So took me into little [01:40:50] classroom, and there’s a blackboard and a little model wooden aeroplane [01:40:55] with ailerons and rudder and all the rest of it. And, uh, he starts [01:41:00] talking to me about what ailerons do and the, you know, profile [01:41:05] of a wing and how it creates lift. And I just stopped smirking. And [01:41:10] he looks at me and he goes, is something funny? And I said, no, [01:41:15] it’s just that, you know, you’re teaching me all this baby stuff. And [01:41:20] he goes, you mean baby stuff? I said, well, I kind of knew all this when I was four years old. [01:41:25] And he goes, you knew this when you were four years old. And I said, well, yeah. And [01:41:30] he goes, all right, well explain to me how lift works. I explained about the air pressures alone. My [01:41:35] parents indulged everything I had an interest in and [01:41:40] from four years old they used to buy me books and magazines about aviation. Loved [01:41:45] it. Didn’t have comics. I had books about planes and wings [01:41:50] magazine was a thing, right? So I would read these things avidly from cover to cover, [01:41:55] even though I didn’t like reading something I was interested in and passionate about.

Raj Ahlowia: Knew everything [01:42:00] about it. And I’d read about famous pilots and, you [01:42:05] know, Douglas Bader movies. I’d love watching all that stuff. Dam Busters um, [01:42:10] one of my favourite books was a book called samurai, which wasn’t about samurai. It was about a guy called Saburo Sakai, who [01:42:15] was the top fighter pilot for Japan during World War Two. I mean, he blew [01:42:20] everybody else away in World War Two. He was the number one ace pilot, but his life [01:42:25] story and journey was was fascinating. So I had a pilot mentality, and [01:42:30] I’m looking at what he’s showing this little model aeroplane thinking it’s all baby stuff. So he goes, all right, [01:42:35] fine, let’s go. So he grabbed the the keys to the plane and he taxied it out [01:42:40] to the end of the runway, and he goes, all right, superstar, smart ass. What are you going to do to take off? [01:42:45] He goes, you’re in control. And I went, what? And he goes, you know everything. [01:42:50] What do you do? And I said, well, full power. Keep [01:42:55] it in a straight line and it will do it. It’ll take off. And he goes, okay, [01:43:00] go on then. There’s your throttle. So I said, really? He goes, yeah, do it. So I push the throttle [01:43:05] full forward. He said, you don’t worry about keeping a straight line, I’ll do that. And we’re hurtling [01:43:10] down the runway and without doing anything, an aeroplane will. When it hits [01:43:15] the right airspeed, you don’t have to pull back on the yoke or anything. It will lift off.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:43:20] runway needs to be long enough to get to that speed.

Raj Ahlowia: With [01:43:25] most aircraft. They’re going to accelerate to that speed anyway when you put it full [01:43:30] throttle. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be on the runway anyway. And you do not need to pull back on the yoke. [01:43:35] It will take off regardless. And then you pull back on the yoke [01:43:40] to get more height. You’re going to have the airspeed anyway to get lift. [01:43:45] And as you pull back, your airspeed is going to actually drop because [01:43:50] you’re pulling back. But you’re getting lift more lift in. In exchange for [01:43:55] that. So the aeroplane takes off and we go flying for about half an hour and [01:44:00] we get up over 2000ft. And there is a wispy [01:44:05] layer of cloud beneath us. And you know, those romantic [01:44:10] images of a Scottish loch with a mist on the surface in the early [01:44:15] morning like milk? That’s how the cloud was, that we [01:44:20] were above, and the air above that layer was so [01:44:25] delicate and smooth. We [01:44:30] were floating on this milk bed. But the engine note [01:44:35] becomes a whisper when there’s less air. Buffett and [01:44:40] I just turned to Vaughn, and I said, Vaughn, I was born to fly. [01:44:45] We came back down and I said to Vaughn, so, you know, how much does it cost [01:44:50] to learn to fly? And he goes, well, um, it’s not about how much it cost to learn to fly.

Raj Ahlowia: It’s [01:44:55] you’ve got to do 50 hours of flight time. You’ve got to pass exams in [01:45:00] radio telephony and bunch of other exams along the way. Um, [01:45:05] that there are certain books you’ve got to read. Um, but all in all, basically [01:45:10] you’re paying for about 50 hours of flight time and tuition and buy a bunch of books and [01:45:15] these exams. And I said, so how much is an hour’s lesson? He told me it was about £100, [01:45:20] and at the time. So I said, okay, so 50 times 100 is 5000. [01:45:25] He goes, yeah, got my chequebook out. I wrote a check for £5,000. [01:45:30] And I said, who do I make it out to? And Vaughn’s looking at me from [01:45:35] the other side of the desk, and he’s like, he literally said to me, who are you? [01:45:40] Nobody does this. And I said, why? I asked you how [01:45:45] much it cost to fly. You told me it’s going to take 50 hours. [01:45:50] There’s 50 hours worth of money. I want you to teach me to fly. And for the next [01:45:55] year, because of the weather in the UK is so crappy. I would go to Leavesden every [01:46:00] weekend, Saturday and Sunday after doing five days a week at work. And [01:46:05] me and Vaughn would hang out and go flying. And he taught me to fly. And, [01:46:10] uh.

Payman Langroudi: And how how how how far did you take flying? Did [01:46:15] you. Is it something you do all the time?

Raj Ahlowia: You know, when I was out teaching for Larry once in Florida, [01:46:20] the following week, I’d booked to go learn how to do loop de loop for [01:46:25] stunt flying, because I was just on a journey of discovery, not only with the dentistry [01:46:30] but also with the flying. I was doing instrument meteorological conditions and I had an American license [01:46:35] as well. And I was, yeah, just enjoying flying all [01:46:40] over the place. So I’d spend a week teaching at Pankey and then go hire a plane and fly to the Bahamas.

Payman Langroudi: Nice. [01:46:45]

Raj Ahlowia: You know, or go join, um, the Miami Municipal [01:46:50] Dade County Flying Club, rent their planes and go down to the Everglades [01:46:55] or down to Key West and hang out with all the boozers, uh, you know, [01:47:00] uh, waiting for their next cocktail.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind when I say what are the most memorable [01:47:05] parts of this journey? Like, what’s the most memorable lecture you went to? What’s what [01:47:10] comes to mind when I say that?

Raj Ahlowia: Most memorable lecture. Um. [01:47:15] Yeah. [01:47:20] That very first day at Pankey, one of the first people [01:47:25] to speak at Pankey. To all the all students after they’ve done the same thing as Frank, [01:47:30] spoken to all of us and asked us to go around what we were, what we’re about. And when it came to me [01:47:35] in my turn, I said, oh yeah, I’m working the UK. I’m on this TV show called Extreme Makeover, [01:47:40] and that was already blown away. Everybody else. And they’re like, who’s this guy? Right? [01:47:45] He’s already on TV. What’s he doing here? And then the [01:47:50] first speaker spoke and, um, it was Steve Ratcliffe. He [01:47:55] was one of the four panky instructors, and he ended up going and teaching for Frank as [01:48:00] well. Um, and Steve kind of saw in me [01:48:05] a younger version of himself, I’m absolutely, absolutely convinced of this, getting to know Steve [01:48:10] as a friend over the years. Uh, he saw in me the same passion [01:48:15] for learning, but also, uh, in a way, uh, a search [01:48:20] for validation that he also had gone through. And, um, he [01:48:25] Whilst he was talking to the rest of the class, he put his hand on my shoulder and [01:48:30] he said these words. He said, you know, wherever you are in your journey in [01:48:35] dentistry, that’s brilliant, but you don’t yet know what [01:48:40] you don’t yet know.

Raj Ahlowia: Now that one [01:48:45] sentence stuck with me forever. And Frank [01:48:50] Steve was quoting somebody else that he’d heard that [01:48:55] from. Okay. And that person had heard it from somebody else and somebody else. Now, [01:49:00] over the years, teaching in the UK, I’ve always said that phrase, you don’t yet know or you don’t yet know, [01:49:05] but I’ve also heard many people repeat it, but they get it ever [01:49:10] so slightly wrong. They say you don’t know what you don’t [01:49:15] know. Now there’s a subtle difference. If I, as [01:49:20] a teacher, say to you Payman. You [01:49:25] don’t know what you don’t know. In a way, I’m belittling [01:49:30] you because I’m telling you, you don’t know something. But if, as a [01:49:35] teacher, I say with love, with a hand on your shoulder, you don’t yet [01:49:40] know what you don’t yet know, I am acknowledging that you are [01:49:45] going to discover this, and you are going to know these things, and you’re going to [01:49:50] learn these things, and I’m going to be there to help you and show you some stuff. I’m [01:49:55] acknowledging your capacity as a student, and my love for you and my passion to teach [01:50:00] you and help you discover this stuff. It’s different, right? So [01:50:05] I correct those people that say, you don’t know what you don’t know. I say, no, no, you [01:50:10] don’t yet know what you don’t yet know.

Payman Langroudi: Anthony Robbins talks about that. What’s [01:50:15] not perfect yet? Yeah. Rather than what’s the problem. Right. And [01:50:20] and Apparently in NLP that’s a big thing. Like why is your brain totally [01:50:25] different?

Raj Ahlowia: I don’t know if it’s a funny thing I learned to back in the day. Do [01:50:30] you know who coined the phrase NLP first NLP? Where does what does NLP [01:50:35] stand for?

Payman Langroudi: Neuro linguistic programming, right.

Raj Ahlowia: Where does neuro neuro linguistic? Who said those [01:50:40] words first? Who wrote them first in a book? It’s a guy called Richard Bandler. [01:50:45] Now, before I graduated as a dentist at [01:50:50] guy’s, they used to have these evening lectures [01:50:55] for the dental society once a month or so. And one, [01:51:00] one time it was, uh, a former guy’s man who [01:51:05] used to do hypnosis on his patients, and he used to teach [01:51:10] midwives and nurses how to do hypnosis to help, [01:51:15] um, expecting mothers. And he was giving a talk about [01:51:20] this passion. Weirdly, there was also a dentist called Mike Portelli, [01:51:25] who was a famous fashion photographer, and I went to his evening thing because I found that fascinating, too, because it was my [01:51:30] interest was photography. But anyway, this dentist who came to talk about hypnosis [01:51:35] invited members of the assembled guys crowd [01:51:40] if they wanted to come down on stage and give it a try. And I went down to give it a try, and [01:51:45] he gave us a few things to to try. And at the end of it, [01:51:50] he pulled me aside and he goes, you know, you’ve got, um, a natural ability [01:51:55] for this is something to do with the way you talk. Um, he said, you’re [01:52:00] you’re a natural. That’s why it was working for you. When you’re doing this, you should study this more. He [01:52:05] goes, are you interested? And I said, yeah, I am. So he started [01:52:10] me on a journey before I’d finished dentistry of learning hypnotherapy. And [01:52:15] I went to there was a very popular bookstore in um [01:52:20] um, near Kentish Town that used to sell those books, [01:52:25] and I went and bought loads of them.

Raj Ahlowia: And while I was there, I bumped into somebody also [01:52:30] flicking through the hypnosis section, a lady, and we just got chatting and [01:52:35] she said, oh, you want to learn from this and this and this and these books? [01:52:40] And she said, I’m doing a course and I can send you all my notes. So I said, oh, [01:52:45] great, are you learning from? And she was learning from a well-known British, um, [01:52:50] hypnotist. And I knocked on his door. He wasn’t that [01:52:55] far away. And I said, oh, I was hoping to pick your brains about where [01:53:00] I should learn. And he said, well, you should learn about NLP. Um, [01:53:05] and it’s from a guy called Richard Bandler. Get his books. So [01:53:10] I got all his books, and I joined a mailing list for people interested that this [01:53:15] bookstore did. Extorted, and they sent me a thing that said that Richard Bandler was going to be doing [01:53:20] a two week masterclass on NLP in [01:53:25] London. Did I want to sign up? I signed up straight away. In [01:53:30] my class for those two weeks was a guy called [01:53:35] Paul McKenna, who is now considered one of the, you know, most [01:53:40] famous hypnotists in UK. He bunked off most of the classes. Funnily enough, he didn’t turn up to everything, [01:53:45] but I did. And um, again, you know, it’s like seeking [01:53:50] the best of the best in anything. Um, and so I eventually got to Richard Bandler, [01:53:55] who, who wrote the book on NLP.

Payman Langroudi: Did you did you practice NLP [01:54:00] on your patients?

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah, I did, um, I did extractions under hypnosis. I’ve done root [01:54:05] canal under hypnosis. Not often. Uh, I mean, I remember when I.

Payman Langroudi: Was a nervous [01:54:10] patient or something.

Raj Ahlowia: The very first time I did it, I was still very young. I remember I learned NLP and I had [01:54:15] a masters from Richard. It wasn’t a real master’s but Richard’s master’s in mastery [01:54:20] of NLP. Before I graduated as a dentist and then as a Viti, [01:54:25] I had to do an extraction on. I think it was 13 or 14 year old, [01:54:30] and he was incredibly needle phobic. And I just said to the [01:54:35] mother, well, you know, would you like to try doing it under hypnosis? And [01:54:40] the kid said, yeah, okay. And the mother went, okay. And so I [01:54:45] induced the kid and without any anaesthesia, extracted [01:54:50] his teeth. Now the mother was sort [01:54:55] of standing there gawping, and my nurse was like this. She’d never seen anything [01:55:00] like it. Kid was all matter of fact. And he just woke up straight away. As soon as the tooth [01:55:05] was out, I said, right, that’s done. And he woke up, got up, and they left. Then [01:55:10] I did a root canal for another needle phobic. And, you know, it was there [01:55:15] in the background. But what I realised as I studied NLP [01:55:20] was you don’t actually have to do too much. If [01:55:25] you can talk a certain way, read a patient, read [01:55:30] their pacing, read and what’s right for them, you can modulate [01:55:35] how you talk. I’m doing it right now.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of mirroring, right?

Raj Ahlowia: A little bit, [01:55:40] a little bit of mirroring. But then from mirroring to leading you can start by [01:55:45] mirroring, but you got to lead them to where you want them to be. So if they’re very hyper, you [01:55:50] can be a little bit hyper with them to begin with.

Payman Langroudi: And slow.

Raj Ahlowia: Them down, slow them right down. [01:55:55] Now, Larry Brewer, who I mentioned the former stand [01:56:00] up comedian and dentist who could also do that hand trick, he once told me, he said [01:56:05] when I was on stage as a stand up comedian, if [01:56:10] the crowd were a bit noisy and rowdy and weren’t paying attention, the best way to grab their attention [01:56:15] is not to shout at them and not try to overpower their volume. You [01:56:20] start talking quieter and slower, and the people who are paying attention [01:56:25] to you will tell everyone around them to shut up.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. [01:56:30]

Raj Ahlowia: He said. You know, you can manipulate the crowd by [01:56:35] getting the attention of just a few who’ll do the rest of the work for you. So [01:56:40] I’ve always been fascinated about that. The psychology of human beings, their behaviour. [01:56:45] Well, it’s this sort of.

Payman Langroudi: Massive thirst for knowledge. Yeah. And I [01:56:50] don’t know how to characterise it. Like, almost like unorthodox delivery. You sort of unorthodox [01:56:55] thinking.

Raj Ahlowia: I just like learning different things every year. I wanted to learn something new in. My father in [01:57:00] law said, what are you learning this year? You know.

Payman Langroudi: Always, always been that guy.

Raj Ahlowia: You know, when [01:57:05] you when you find the things that it’s like, for example, my son, [01:57:10] as he was growing up, we wanted to give him opportunities. Anything [01:57:15] he showed an interest in, we would do what was necessary to embrace that, [01:57:20] encourage that, enable that, give him opportunities. So piano lessons, [01:57:25] golf lessons, swimming lessons, fencing lessons, you know, art [01:57:30] classes, you name it. Let him indulge. But slowly, [01:57:35] slowly, he discovers which ones he really enjoys and [01:57:40] which ones he wants to let go and drop away. I was always interested in learning [01:57:45] things, but over the time you find the ones that you really, really enjoy [01:57:50] and the other ones, you just let them go. I used to do stage hypnotism. It was a party trick [01:57:55] thing. I remember my brother who’s a very, very well [01:58:00] known endodontist. Um, he teaches the Distance learning MSC [01:58:05] at King’s. Things. Um. I remember when he was a student, his [01:58:10] year group and the medics were going to some ski resort for, [01:58:15] you know, the winter holidays, and I tagged along with them. And [01:58:20] somewhere along the line, he told them that I knew how to do hypnosis. [01:58:25] And they started badgering me. Would I do a show? So I ended up doing a show [01:58:30] in a hotel resort dining room to their [01:58:35] group and everybody else that was there, including the staff from [01:58:40] the hotel. It was just random, random things like that. All right, fine, [01:58:45] I’ll do it. I’ll do a show. I remember giving my brother a hypno, um, a [01:58:50] photographic memory to help him through guys when he was a student, [01:58:55] so helped him. Um, yeah. Developed strategies [01:59:00] for learning, including a photographic memory, using a lot of my memory techniques that I was [01:59:05] trying for myself anyway. But using hypnosis to program his brain.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [01:59:10] get to the darker part of the of the pod.

Raj Ahlowia: Oh, okay. All right. [01:59:15] Okay.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the darkest day?

Raj Ahlowia: Is there a dark, dark side?

Payman Langroudi: What’s the darkest day in this [01:59:20] journey?

Raj Ahlowia: Darkest day in dentistry or life? Uh, when [01:59:25] whichever one. A patient that had been referred to the practice [01:59:30] decided to sue me and [01:59:35] made a complaint. The only person ever in [01:59:40] my whole career that was pretty dark. It’s the only time I’ve really had [01:59:45] to.

Payman Langroudi: What was the emotion going through you that that you were trying your best and someone thinks [01:59:50] otherwise? Or what was the what was the abiding emotion?

Raj Ahlowia: Um, [01:59:55] a [02:00:00] little bit shocked. Because it come out of [02:00:05] nowhere. But the red flag signs had been there, and it [02:00:10] was another learning experience of the types of patient that are out there, and a learning experience [02:00:15] of how to handle and communicate with them. It [02:00:20] wasn’t a communication error. I don’t think on my part, [02:00:25] it was not recognising the mental [02:00:30] state of this individual early enough. Luckily, [02:00:35] though, because I’ve got a passion for photography, I’d [02:00:40] photographed everything, including all of my [02:00:45] full mouth treatment, planning and waxing up stages, including [02:00:50] articulated trial equilibration of function and every step [02:00:55] of that, and had all the models, including an undamaged. [02:01:00] Damaged reference articulated model set as well to [02:01:05] compare with.

Payman Langroudi: Do you do that on every case.

Raj Ahlowia: On these kinds of cases, the big occlusion cases. [02:01:10]

Payman Langroudi: You record all of the.

Raj Ahlowia: I record it. Yeah. I’ve got a really good friend up [02:01:15] in Manchester, Andrew Shelley, who I showed my process of photography to for [02:01:20] recording everything. And he he loves it. He does it as well. Now on his trial of [02:01:25] collaborations like, um, you know, soaking the, um, soaking [02:01:30] the models in, uh, a yellow dye so that wherever [02:01:35] you touch with the handpiece, you can see where you’ve made [02:01:40] changes and photograph it and then check it on the articulator. So you have a [02:01:45] sequence, a working sequence that you’re going to work to, and you show that to the [02:01:50] patient. And it’s all it was all recorded and documented in the notes that the patient had seen [02:01:55] the trial equilibration and then agreed to it. And I had I explained to her that [02:02:00] if we basically she had come to me because she had had a [02:02:05] full mouth rehabilitation, but the occlusion was off and it was incredibly [02:02:10] uncomfortable. So I had helped her with a splint first to show [02:02:15] that given the right occlusal setup, you [02:02:20] can have a comfortable jaw again and jaw joints. And that’s without changing any [02:02:25] of the teeth, just changing, altering one surface with a piece of plastic that sits over [02:02:30] the top. So it was the balance of the jaw that was off. So I said she said, [02:02:35] well, can my teeth have that? I said, yes, if we change the balance of the teeth, [02:02:40] it’s possible, but I’m going to have to trial it to see what teeth I’m going to have [02:02:45] to adjust.

Raj Ahlowia: And I’ll show you how much adjustment I’m going to have to do. And [02:02:50] so she looked at the trial equilibration. I did it in front of her and photographed [02:02:55] it, and it took about 25 minutes. And she goes, how long will it take to do the same thing [02:03:00] in my mouth? I said exactly the same amount of time, because you’ve just seen the changes I’m going to [02:03:05] have to make. And I said, but you’ve got all these metal [02:03:10] framed ceramic bridgework, and on some of those teeth you’ve [02:03:15] already worn through to the metal on those bridges. And [02:03:20] if it’s a choice between adjusting that bridge or your good real natural tooth [02:03:25] above to get the balance right, which would you prefer me to drill the [02:03:30] already worn out bridge, worn through bridge or your natural tooth? And [02:03:35] she correctly said, drill the bridge. And I said, yes, that’s right, because it’s the bridge that’s wrong. So [02:03:40] if I adjust it more, we can get the balance right and not have to touch your good natural [02:03:45] tooth. I said that’s the right decision, which I showed her on the trial equilibration. So she [02:03:50] helped in the in the.

Payman Langroudi: Diagnosis sort of thing. Yeah. [02:03:55]

Raj Ahlowia: And so I then did the adjustments on her teeth and photographed it [02:04:00] and checked the bite and everything and all good. And she had [02:04:05] been referred down from Newcastle. Anyway, she [02:04:10] goes back home and I said, we’ve got a review booked in about a week. So if [02:04:15] there’s any minor tweaks and adjustments, just like when we did your splint, never get it perfect first time. [02:04:20] So if there’s tweaks and adjustments we’ll tweak and adjust it. And this will tell us [02:04:25] everything we need to know. And she said, if I don’t like the way the bridge looks after you’ve done these adjustments [02:04:30] because more metal is going to show, can I change it? I said, yes, of course you can. And [02:04:35] at least then we’ll know exactly what dimensions to make it. So this bridge, [02:04:40] you realise, is going to need to be changed. Yeah. All documented. Then [02:04:45] she goes away and she starts forgetting the [02:04:50] discussions we’ve just had. And she starts looking at this bridge [02:04:55] and obsessing over how ugly it looks. She goes to another dentist who says [02:05:00] something stupid like, oh, how could someone do such an awful bridge [02:05:05] for you? Like I made it that way and adjusted it that way. I didn’t make the bridge and adjust it that [02:05:10] way. And so she gets perfect.

Payman Langroudi: Storm starts to brew her head. [02:05:15]

Raj Ahlowia: And it’s my.

Payman Langroudi: Fault.

Raj Ahlowia: And this other dentist’s fee for the bridge I need to pay and [02:05:20] decides to sue me. Now, luckily.

Payman Langroudi: My documented.

Raj Ahlowia: Everything. [02:05:25] My wife took this gigantic box of [02:05:30] models and said she works. My wife works in London, so she dropped it all off to them along [02:05:35] with all the notes. And I sent them an articulator too, because I wasn’t sure they’d have the article. [02:05:40] They put the model on. I said, there you go, there’s everything. They looked at it, did [02:05:45] their first report back to her solicitors, and her solicitors basically turned [02:05:50] around and said, this is an unwinnable case. We recommend [02:05:55] you drop the case. And and so they weren’t prepared to move [02:06:00] forward with it. And I got a letter about 4 or 5 months later saying, you [02:06:05] know, the other party’s solicitors have advised her there is no case [02:06:10] to answer. But that was, you know, a dark shadow hanging over me. [02:06:15] Um, I you know, it seems to happen to people a lot [02:06:20] these days. Um, but I’m extremely careful in my [02:06:25] communications now with patients. I want them to really understand [02:06:30] what they’re committing to. And if I think someone’s a crazy, I [02:06:35] do turn them down. And I’ve had a few. I can tell you stories about some proper crazies, [02:06:40] um, that I’ve turned down one of them. A really interesting one, actually. It was a lawyer who [02:06:45] wanted me to just. He. Had smashed [02:06:50] his mouth apart with his power function, absolutely destroyed it. And he just [02:06:55] wanted me to do six veneers at the front.

Raj Ahlowia: He’d seen me on the telly at [02:07:00] the time. I had a brilliant study group of former students [02:07:05] or people from my study group, and we used to meet at Nstc and [02:07:10] Stevenage in their beautiful facilities. Um, once every [02:07:15] 3 or 4 months, and I’d put on a day or two and come up with a topic. [02:07:20] And so I thought, this lawyer who [02:07:25] wants me to do these six veneers, I’ve explained to him that, you know, your problem [02:07:30] is much bigger than just these front teeth. It’s the you’ve you’ve destroyed [02:07:35] all your back teeth. So you’ve got no what we call posterior support to take the brunt of all [02:07:40] your chewing. So you’re now mashing up your front teeth because you’ve got nothing at the back to chew with. What [02:07:45] we really need to do is rehabilitate you at the back. First get that stabilised [02:07:50] and taking the weight, and then we can do whatever you want to do cosmetically at the front, [02:07:55] but without doing the back first. All that will happen is whatever damage you’ve [02:08:00] done to the big dentists in the sky’s teeth and Mother Nature’s materials you’re [02:08:05] going to do to mine. And I’m nowhere near as good as that big dentist in the sky. And the materials I’ve [02:08:10] got aren’t as good as Mother Nature’s. And he just wasn’t getting it.

Raj Ahlowia: He goes, [02:08:15] yeah, no, I just want you to do these. And I said, all right, look, I’ll tell you what [02:08:20] I’m going to do. I’ve got a study group this weekend of 16 students. [02:08:25] Why don’t you, um, come along, we’ll [02:08:30] take pictures of your case models and everything, and [02:08:35] I will get them in groups to work out your treatment, and [02:08:40] we’ll see what they say. And he said, you’re right. And I said, but [02:08:45] do me a favour. Don’t tell them you’re my patient. I’ll just introduce you and pretend you’re my technician or something, [02:08:50] and you’re just visiting for the day. He said, all right. Good. So he [02:08:55] comes along to the study group. Students are there. We have our usual preamble chit chat, [02:09:00] and I say, right, we’re going to do this exercise and I’m going to give you in groups [02:09:05] the case. I put all the photographs up. I’ve got the x rays, everything. We can flip [02:09:10] backs and forwards through the photographs, whatever you guys want. I’ve got a bunch of them printed out. Here [02:09:15] are the models on articulators for you to look at. Don’t damage them. I want you to work out a [02:09:20] treatment plan. I will answer for you as the patient. And [02:09:25] this is my goal. I want a nice cosmetic end outcome with the front. You [02:09:30] tell me what it’s going to take and give me a budget for how much it’s going to cost. [02:09:35]

Raj Ahlowia: Now, the weird thing is, full gigantic screen [02:09:40] at NSK. Massive, you know, must be 200 inch projector [02:09:45] screen. I put a picture up of this guy. He’s sitting [02:09:50] there. They don’t recognise it’s the same guy. Because the power of [02:09:55] hypnosis. I’ve said he’s a technician. He’s my technician. He’s got nothing to do with this. They don’t put two and two [02:10:00] together. The same guy. And they go off and they’re focussed on the task that I’ve given them. And [02:10:05] they spend half an hour, 40 minutes poring through it, asking me to [02:10:10] show x rays, asking me to answer questions as the patient. He’s sitting there listening. And [02:10:15] they come up with treatment plans, and they correctly talk about occlusion [02:10:20] and function and restoring the posterior before doing the anterior. And they [02:10:25] all get it. And they come up with a budget, which is very similar to what I quoted the guy. And [02:10:30] then I introduce him and they go, oh, that’s so funny. And he stays [02:10:35] for lunch and. And then I said, you know, you don’t have to stay for the rest of the day. I said, so what [02:10:40] do you think? He goes, guys? Yeah, yeah, it’s all interesting. Interesting guys. Uh, but [02:10:45] no, I just want to do the front. And I said, look.

Payman Langroudi: That was your red flag right there. Red [02:10:50] flag.

Raj Ahlowia: I said, look, you’re a lawyer, right? He goes, yeah. He goes, if if, um, [02:10:55] one of your clients wants to do something different to your advice, [02:11:00] are you obliged to, you know, do those things that they want you to do, even [02:11:05] if it goes against your better advice and they’re going to do something completely wrong. He goes, no, no, no, no, I [02:11:10] won’t I won’t take them on. I’ll tell them straight. It’s not for me. I said, well, [02:11:15] thank you for your time. Thank you for giving me the opportunity. Thank you for offering me the work. [02:11:20] But I can’t accept, um, if all you want to do is that [02:11:25] there are lots of other dentists that will give you that you walked away. That [02:11:30] was it. So, you know, having the [02:11:35] wits to turn down the red flag Patient is [02:11:40] a skill that I think dentists need to learn early. It’ll save them a [02:11:45] lot of heartache if you can.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult, though. It comes with experience.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. But but you know, most dentists when [02:11:50] they’re young aren’t doing big, big, big, big, big cases yet because they haven’t learned how to do them yet. But [02:11:55] once they do start to do them, hopefully by that point they will [02:12:00] already have learned to filter the red flag patients. [02:12:05] But also they need to not be worried about the money that they’re going to turn down. And I think [02:12:10] that is a big tripping point that will trip people up because they look at [02:12:15] the money that they’re going to turn down and they’re thinking, oh, you know, I’ve got another mortgage [02:12:20] to payment to make. This is a case that’s landed on my lap, you know, [02:12:25] should I turn it down or should I just go ahead and do it?

Payman Langroudi: The weird paradox with money is that you [02:12:30] end up getting a lot more of it when you stop chasing it [02:12:35] in dentistry. Yeah. You there’s a sixth sense that patients can feel [02:12:40] where you don’t really mind whether they go ahead or not.

Raj Ahlowia: Oh, yeah. Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And hence they go ahead. Yeah [02:12:45] yeah yeah yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: Um, absolutely. If you look hungry.

Payman Langroudi: Paradoxical is it. Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: If you look [02:12:50] hungry for it, they can sniff that out.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: And they know straight away it’s all about the money more [02:12:55] than them. I’ve never been about the money. I’m the poorest dentist out there. [02:13:00] Honestly, I spend every penny I’ve got on family. And, yeah, [02:13:05] I did spend it all. You know, there was a point back in the day.

Payman Langroudi: Did you go digital [02:13:10] as well? Have you, have you jumped into all of that.

Raj Ahlowia: Digital back in 2006? [02:13:15]

Payman Langroudi: When I but and and all the way [02:13:20] onto you know where it is now.

Raj Ahlowia: I did I mean talking about spending all my [02:13:25] money. There was a point where we were expecting a Kimi in 2004. [02:13:30] I was, you know, rushing backwards and forwards to the States all the time. [02:13:35] I had about £50 in the bank, that’s all. And I crashed my car in the snow. [02:13:40] It wasn’t a bad crash. Just smashed up the front headlight. Um, but [02:13:45] I only had £50 in the bank, and the excess was more than [02:13:50] that on my insurance. I was thinking, oh, blimey, I’ll just pay for this myself. Um. Became incredibly [02:13:55] good friends with the guys that did that repair for me, funnily enough. They’d been friends for life since [02:14:00] then. Um, but, yeah, um, I used to spend all [02:14:05] my money on family and education. Not. Not that much on myself, [02:14:10] on, you know, the luxury items like watches and cars and all the rest of it. That [02:14:15] all came later. But my priorities were my education. [02:14:20] And make sure the family bills were paid and buy a house that we needed [02:14:25] and all the rest of it, but also stay true and loyal to the patients at the practice. Not [02:14:30] be gone too long. So I was doing three weeks at the practice and a week away. Um, but, [02:14:35] um, that was, that was, you know, the living poor and learning. But [02:14:40] then, um, what was the second part about? You said something else. Um, I [02:14:45] can’t remember. Anyway, so I was the poorest dentist in town. Uh, yeah. [02:14:50] Spending it all.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure talking to you, man.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Thank [02:14:55] you. Um, we always finish on the same questions.

Raj Ahlowia: Oh, that. Well, that.

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy dinner party. [02:15:00]

Raj Ahlowia: Fantasy dinner party.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests.

Raj Ahlowia: Three guests.

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive.

Raj Ahlowia: Um. [02:15:05] All right. Um. Oh, [02:15:10] God. Uh. I [02:15:15] really don’t know. I really don’t know. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I [02:15:20] could ask you the next question, and then that one might marinate. The next question [02:15:25] is a deathbed question. Deathbed. On your deathbed. Three pieces of advice for your loved ones. [02:15:30]

Raj Ahlowia: Uh. Don’t be sad. We all die. [02:15:35] You know we’re all going to die. There is no escaping it. I my my my outlook [02:15:40] on death is it’s going to happen. I’m not going to worry about it. And [02:15:45] I hope that my family know that [02:15:50] if I had some kind of post-death consciousness, [02:15:55] I wouldn’t want them to be sad and worried. [02:16:00] I’d hope that, um, you know, they know I love them [02:16:05] and they love me too. And it’s just natural. And you now [02:16:10] go on and carry on and live your lives and be happy best you can. And [02:16:15] don’t worry about me. That’s enough. Hopefully I gave them enough and did [02:16:20] enough for them and loved them enough. Probably didn’t. Nobody ever. Never. [02:16:25] You know, um, they always regret, you know, they didn’t spend enough time with their family, apparently. [02:16:30] Isn’t that one of the deathbed things that is the most common?

Payman Langroudi: Five regrets of the dying.

Raj Ahlowia: Regrets that [02:16:35] they didn’t spend enough time with their loved ones. Yeah, hopefully, you know, [02:16:40] they’ll understand why I put so much time into the work and everything [02:16:45] to try and provide and give them everything and give my son the best start because, [02:16:50] damn it, the government’s going to try and steal most of it anyway. Um, even [02:16:55] after I’ve gone, they’re going to try and steal a load of it, so hopefully I’ve given him enough resources. [02:17:00] But isn’t that what life does? All life, whether it’s a plant, an amoeba, a [02:17:05] fungus we’re all trying to. Give [02:17:10] as much resource to the next generation so it survives and thrives. That’s [02:17:15] my purpose. That’s all life’s purpose is. Yeah. And [02:17:20] we human beings try to do that sometimes in stupid ways. War for resources [02:17:25] is stupid. There’s enough resources on the planet that we don’t need to do any [02:17:30] of that, but we group ourselves.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a competitive planet, though.

Raj Ahlowia: Weird way. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You [02:17:35] know what I mean? Like two plants compete for life.

Raj Ahlowia: It’s a greedy planet.

Payman Langroudi: But. [02:17:40] But two plants compete for light, you know? Do you call that greed?

Raj Ahlowia: Well, I [02:17:45] think the way the resources of the planet are. Yeah, it [02:17:50] could be more equally divided. But greed ends up putting. [02:17:55]

Payman Langroudi: The.

Raj Ahlowia: Plants in one hand.

Payman Langroudi: Example. How would you know what I mean? It’s [02:18:00] a it’s a competitive planet. Everything’s competitive.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah, [02:18:05] it’s a strive for life. It’s, uh. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But [02:18:10] but then you hope. You hope. You hope like humanity is there. But maybe it’s slightly above that, [02:18:15] right. That’s that’s what. Yeah, but we’re not.

Raj Ahlowia: But we’re not. There’s a lot of stupidity. [02:18:20]

Payman Langroudi: And you believe in God.

Raj Ahlowia: No. Not really. Really, no.

Payman Langroudi: So when you say seek [02:18:25] and seek, people do this. You think thinking more culturally, culturally Sikh than. Yeah, [02:18:30] yeah. It’s been a massive, massive pleasure, man. If you don’t want to go back to the to the dinner [02:18:35] party, I’m happy to end it on that.

Raj Ahlowia: Thank you so much, sir. It’s been an honour.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so [02:18:40] much for coming in.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [02:18:45] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [02:18:50] Your hosts, Payman Langroudi [02:18:55] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If [02:19:00] you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay [02:19:05] for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because [02:19:10] I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [02:19:15] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value [02:19:20] out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating. [02:19:25]

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] Enlightened Online Training.com to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time whitening Underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you [00:00:30] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:40] Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Doctor Ash back [00:00:45] onto the podcast. Ashkan was on about three years ago. [00:00:50] Episode 125. For anyone who wants to listen to that, ash is the founder [00:00:55] and or co-founder and CEO of the Southcliffe Dental group, [00:01:00] which is how many practices now? 24. 24. Practices. How many [00:01:05] people?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Uh, about 400.

Payman Langroudi: 400 people. Big, [00:01:10] big beast.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. Yeah. It’s not small anymore. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I [00:01:15] listened to the previous episode, and you were saying back then you were looking for 50. Did [00:01:20] you change your opinion on that? Did you go into more consolidation?

Ashkan Pitchforth: It’s more realising [00:01:25] that quantity is is maybe not the the KPI you should go for [00:01:30] quality is. Um, so so that’s why we kind of changed [00:01:35] our, our mindset and thought and thought the best thing to do would be to focus [00:01:40] on achieving being the best of the best. Um, and focusing on what we’ve got rather [00:01:45] than actually, uh, having having the most in number. And also [00:01:50] what kind of what what I think drives a lot of business owners is what I [00:01:55] think mostly most business owners is your EBITDA. You know, your bottom line profit. [00:02:00] Um, and as long as the EBITDA is increasing year on year, which usually [00:02:05] is linked to to a growth of turnover, um, that turnover [00:02:10] can be grown almost like internally rather than externally by, [00:02:15] by acquisitions. Um, so that’s what’s driven us over the last [00:02:20] 2 or 3 years, is just focusing on the, on the bottom line and [00:02:25] an implementation of a new business model as well, as opposed [00:02:30] to the existing one that we had or which most practices kind of kind of run run [00:02:35] with. Um, and then and proven it works. That’s what we did. [00:02:40]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Um, and uh, following the uh, the last podcast, [00:02:45] it went a bit belly up. We went into a period where it was, you know, I think about a [00:02:50] pound away from bankruptcy. It was that bad. It was horrendous. Um, we hit clawback [00:02:55] March 1023, um, to the tune of about £4 [00:03:00] million. Wow. Um, and then we had previous years clawback of 3 million, which we [00:03:05] just got over and it was um, it was unfortunately, uh, you know, [00:03:10] bend over and take your trousers down. Time for ash. Um, uh, [00:03:15] so then we. Yeah, it was, it was, it was been I think the last two years has been the toughest [00:03:20] two years in business in my personal life. Um, [00:03:25] then I think the whole ten years doing, you know, it’s our ten year anniversary [00:03:30] in the end of March 25th. So in the whole ten [00:03:35] years, the last two years has been the toughest, really the toughest. And I think, uh, [00:03:40] doing dentistry for 15 years, um, it’s been yeah, [00:03:45] the last two years has been incredibly it’s been tough but then rewarding because I think once [00:03:50] you’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Gotten through it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Once you’ve gotten through that, You’ve experienced [00:03:55] it. You’ve dealt with it. You’ve changed. Um, it’s [00:04:00] taught me a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Because people kind of might think someone who’s got 24 [00:04:05] practices doesn’t have financial worries anymore. But it’s a misconception, [00:04:10] isn’t it? You don’t get to that number of practices by spending the money. Yeah. You’re [00:04:15] constantly reinvesting. Yep. And you yourself constantly working [00:04:20] in the NHS. Right.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what surprised me a little bit. You’re [00:04:25] a busy NHS dentist yourself while running 24 practices.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, well, I mean, [00:04:30] with business, cash is king, as they say. Um, so cash flow will make or break you. [00:04:35] You know, you can have all the assets in the world. If your cash runs out, you might only have a week. And then then [00:04:40] then it’s game over. Um, and also when you’re growing a business, obviously you have to you have to [00:04:45] we usually you borrow money from banks and it comes with strict covenants. And if you breach those covenants, [00:04:50] then again, um, um, they can come and, you know, start [00:04:55] pulling the strings and essentially so so that’s kind of what happened. Um, um, [00:05:00] a combination of breaching confidence and, and, uh, run out of cash because of the [00:05:05] clawback issue. Um, the only reason why I immersed into doing pretty much full time [00:05:10] at one point, full time clinical NHS dentistry was when was when I needed to implement the new [00:05:15] the new business model that we, we kind of invented. Um, [00:05:20] I think so I clinically I qualified in 2009 and I clinically retired [00:05:25] in 2019. So I did ten years, ten years of good hard clinical dentistry, um, [00:05:30] and then up to up to 2023. So for that [00:05:35] three year period, three four year period, I wasn’t doing any clinical work, just solely focussed on business [00:05:40] and bank meetings and acquisitions and, you know, head office kind of stuff. [00:05:45] Um, but then when you want to implement a new model, the best way is to to throw yourself [00:05:50] into the thick of it and to see, okay, how is it working? Can we tweak it? What needs to happen? [00:05:55]

Payman Langroudi: What was the new model?

Ashkan Pitchforth: So the new the new model is is is is utilising [00:06:00] the skill mix. Um, um, almost like the therapist the [00:06:05] therapist model. Um, um, within NHS dentistry, um, [00:06:10] which um, and our model is very different to the, to the ones [00:06:15] that you see advertised or how it’s taught. It’s a very unique one, um, where, [00:06:20] you know, it’s not just looking at the skill mix, but looking at the referral process, looking at [00:06:25] payment allocations to to therapists, dentists, you know, you’re splitting udas. Um, [00:06:30] I’m not talking about splitting treatment. Course of treatment, I mean, splitting. If a therapist is involved in a course of treatment and that’s [00:06:35] finished off by a dentist, how patients obviously perceive things, access. Um, [00:06:40] so it’s the whole thing and it and we we started running with it in the 1st [00:06:45] of April, uh, 2023. Um, and [00:06:50] it took us two years to actually implement and tweak because we had to change things. [00:06:55] We had to tweak things. We had to run with this concept as a classic example. Initially we employed [00:07:00] all the therapists and paid them an hourly rate.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashkan Pitchforth: You pay anyone an hourly rate that doesn’t give [00:07:05] them any incentive to work.

Payman Langroudi: Slow down. Right.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, exactly. So, um, and there’s no there’s [00:07:10] nothing driving them. And also they weren’t driven as well because they were like, well, okay, my earnings are capped. I can only [00:07:15] just do more hours. So then switching it to a UDA payment mechanism, but then [00:07:20] also implementing all of the uh waiting for the regulations then to change. [00:07:25] Uh, it had to be a medical regulation change for them to give local anaesthetic without without [00:07:30] needing a patient group directive or a dentist overseeing it and then linking [00:07:35] it all back to the NHS contracts to see obviously, you know, is this is this something that can be [00:07:40] done without dentist involvement? So yeah, it took us that two year period [00:07:45] to to implement it.

Payman Langroudi: Talk me through it through a new NHS patient presents. Do [00:07:50] they get seen by therapists first? Yes. And the therapist can now do examinations. [00:07:55] Right?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yep. Examinations. Radiographs. Uh, restorations. Extraction [00:08:00] of deciduous teeth. Perio treatment. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:08:05] does that therapist by themselves decide what the treatment plan is going to be or how does it work?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yes. [00:08:10] Then they can essentially formulate the treatment plan. Um, they would then refer onwards [00:08:15] to the to the GDP, the dentist, if obviously there’s a, there’s a, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Anything [00:08:20] else they.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Can’t do outside of the scope of practice. Um, and then the benefits to [00:08:25] the GDP, uh, to the dentist is that almost you then become on the NHS, you become a [00:08:30] specialist in your own right. Because like when I work clinically now, I don’t see kids. I [00:08:35] don’t do exams. So you. So the the treatment that I’m [00:08:40] doing is simply the high yielding, high profit treatments only because you’re, [00:08:45] you’re low yielding, low profit treatments of just your band ones. And if you’re band twos [00:08:50] and even if that’s privately, you’re not, you’re not doing at all. Um, so you’re only literally coming [00:08:55] into a day of crown preps, root canals, extractions, dentures. Um, [00:09:00] so you’re focusing just on those high quality bits that you can do [00:09:05] which then, which then maximises your earnings as the GDP. So it works on both levels. But we have to try [00:09:10] and test all the different bits. Mhm. Um and then from an organisational point [00:09:15] of view, um, from um a practice based EBITDA, [00:09:20] you know, you’re looking at about 35% and generally [00:09:25] you know your, your, your EBITDA percentage of turnover in practice level, you [00:09:30] know, is around about 20 on a group corporate level, you’re looking at [00:09:35] you’re looking at an EBITDA of 25%. And usually it’s less than ten. Um, [00:09:40] so then for from a from an organisational structure, you’re looking and thinking, oh, This is amazing. [00:09:45] Um, and we went from a actual kind of like, figures, um, [00:09:50] from our March 1023 of zero profit [00:09:55] because we had the, the huge.

Payman Langroudi: Clawback.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And underperformance, pretty much all negative, as [00:10:00] it were, to, you know, the end of year one, uh, it goes up [00:10:05] to like 5 million profit, profit, EBITDA and then [00:10:10] um, and then increased, increased on that. And then the, the, the aim this year is to hit [00:10:15] hit an EBITDA of between 7 to 8. Um, well and [00:10:20] then you multiply that out and then it’s incredible.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And I don’t think you can really flip a business around [00:10:25] in that short space of time. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Like like emergency patient care, [00:10:30] right. Yeah. Interesting. So then what were the sort of issues that you came across convincing [00:10:35] people about this? I mean, there must have been issues, right? You must have had a dentist saying, what the hell? [00:10:40]

Ashkan Pitchforth: To two of them. Dentists and patients.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Patient. [00:10:45] I mean, now, as a patient, if you go into A&E, you don’t see a doctor [00:10:50] at all. At the start anyway. Yeah. You get triaged by a nurse practitioner. [00:10:55] Then you might then see, um, someone with advanced skills and all this kind of [00:11:00] stuff. They might bandage you up and send you off, give you a prescription, send you off, and and if obviously it’s [00:11:05] worse and worse and worse, then, yeah, you end up seeing seeing a doctor at the end of the line. Um, [00:11:10] and the same obviously in medical practice, you know. Um, so [00:11:15] it’s changing the patient’s perception that actually seeing a therapist is good. There’s [00:11:20] been a lot of research to say that actually patients, the patient outcomes are improved. [00:11:25] If you see a therapist. Why are happier? A lot of the time they have more time [00:11:30] to spend on a patient, whereas whereas a dentist, um, um, you [00:11:35] don’t. The way I would do clinical dentistry as well is if I saw a patient and [00:11:40] automatically I know they’re stable and this is the band one. Then you almost like you’re thinking.

Payman Langroudi: Move them along. [00:11:45]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Move them along. Because I want I want to get involved. I want to see a patient. I’m going to do something so so [00:11:50] so therefore most you’re not spending that quality time with them and talking about oral hygiene. Oh yeah. Just go and [00:11:55] see the hygienist. Oh yeah. Yeah. Just you know, whereas obviously the therapists don’t. They spend that time with them. So the patient [00:12:00] outcomes are improved. Um so the patient perception was hard. And then. Yeah, [00:12:05] also then changing the changing the perception of the dentist as well to say that actually, [00:12:10] you know, you.

Payman Langroudi: Focus on the focus on you.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. Focus on the stuff that you went into dental school to learn [00:12:15] how to do, you know, and um, um, and your day is just literally just packed [00:12:20] almost like that, um, changing their perception. So it happened. But it takes time. [00:12:25] It takes time. You got to sit everyone down, explain these things and implement it. And of [00:12:30] course, you’re going to hit hurdles and there’s going to be stumbling blocks and and things like that.

Payman Langroudi: But all the therapists [00:12:35] up to the treatment planning piece, or are you internally training them.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I [00:12:40] mean, the majority of our therapists are, um, dentists in their own right. [00:12:45]

Payman Langroudi: From foreign. From foreign qualified.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. Foreign qualified. Um, outside the EU. Um, [00:12:50] so so it’s automatically there’s a they’re [00:12:55] used to treatment planning, but then saying that we do have some UK qualified therapists and they [00:13:00] can treatment plan. Well because that’s what they’re taught to do. But they don’t. But then per say they try and [00:13:05] plan up to their scope so they would recognise there is a partially dentate patient [00:13:10] who has expressed need for, say, prostheses. So then they would just [00:13:15] do a referral to the practitioner, but then they’re going to sit down with the patient and go through. Right. This is a denture. This is a [00:13:20] fixed appliance. This is what a bridge. This is what an implant. They don’t. So they’re not going to have those discussions. But they recognise [00:13:25] up to a point. And then make the referral and then it’s down then to the dentist then to then undertake [00:13:30] that chat. But then at that point in time, the dentist essentially can then give [00:13:35] all the treatment options as well The NHS and the private.

Payman Langroudi: And then from the sort of [00:13:40] the allocation perspective the band one udas you give to the therapist and the the rest [00:13:45] you can give to the dentist.

Ashkan Pitchforth: So we split.

Payman Langroudi: You can split how it works.

Ashkan Pitchforth: You can split. Yeah. You split the UDA. So it’s the same course of [00:13:50] treatment. So only one course of treatment gets claimed on the NHS. If it’s an NHS course, you know, privately obviously works [00:13:55] differently. Um, and then obviously the therapist gets their bit, the dentist gets their [00:14:00] bit. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And are you the only ones doing this.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Our [00:14:05] model. Yes. Because our model is, it’s, it’s even though how I describe it, [00:14:10] you think oh that sounds quite easy. Our model is a lot more intense. [00:14:15] Um, it’s a lot more intricacy to it, I think on a wide, wide, wide, [00:14:20] wide scale. Yes. I think we’re the only ones doing it. [00:14:25] Um, I don’t think there’s a lot of groups that have the, the drive [00:14:30] to want to implement or can do because they’ll hit a stumbling block and they’ll just give up. Um, I don’t [00:14:35] think the model works in private practice. Fully private practice. I think it only works in an NHS slash [00:14:40] mixed practice privately, I. I can’t see it working, [00:14:45] but we don’t own private, fully private practices only because if I’m a patient that’s paying top dollar to see [00:14:50] a for an appointment, why would I pay [00:14:55] the top dollar then to see a therapist when maybe I want to see a dentist so that and then obviously then if you’re reducing the [00:15:00] fee to see a therapist, then essentially you’re in the private model. You’re doing yourself out of money [00:15:05] or doing yourself out of income by doing that. So I don’t see how that works, I think is that [00:15:10] could probably be solved. But then that’s not my problem to solve because we don’t do that’s [00:15:15] not how our business model works, then I wouldn’t there’s no sense.

Payman Langroudi: In the acquisition. You’ve [00:15:20] always focussed on mixed practices.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Why is that? Is that because it’s easier to borrow? [00:15:25]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Um, uh, yes. Um, in [00:15:30] a nutshell. Um, it’s easier then obviously to, to because you’ve got the guaranteed income coming [00:15:35] in. So your NHS income essentially covers your overheads. Yeah. And then you build on anything like that. The way [00:15:40] we when we were in the acquisition phase, um, we, we would buy practices, [00:15:45] um, almost like, you know, like a cigarette where you’ve, you’ve [00:15:50] had most of it and there’s just one final drag left. So we’d buy it at that final drag, we would pick [00:15:55] it up and have have that final puff almost. Um, so they were they were pretty much practices [00:16:00] that come to the end of their life. Uh, owners are just wanting to move on. Didn’t care anymore. [00:16:05] Um, so we would buy it and then we’d we’d, you know, we’d increase the private revenue in the practice. [00:16:10]

Payman Langroudi: So you specifically would be looking for NHS practices that weren’t doing much profit, weren’t doing. [00:16:15]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. No, no, we would.

Payman Langroudi: That would be the potential that you’d see in.

Ashkan Pitchforth: There. Exactly. Because you’ve got to have, you’ve, you’ve you’ve [00:16:20] got to be able to create, you’ve got to be able to buy something and then create equity in it. I think [00:16:25] they call it Armitage or something like that. I’m not sure the exact business term. Um, and [00:16:30] then we can then once we’ve then created more equity, essentially. We can then borrow more off of that and [00:16:35] then increase. And that’s how we expanded to 24 in a in a relatively short space of time. [00:16:40]

Payman Langroudi: And were you borrowing based on the other practices growth? Yes. Is that how it work?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. That’s how [00:16:45] it worked. Yeah. And then a lot of the time we bought in cash as well. Um, um, well, we had the [00:16:50] funds and the cash flow existed to you.

Payman Langroudi: And then from a sort of org chart perspective, [00:16:55] was there a, is there a manager on each side. And they’re [00:17:00] really in charge of growth. Is that how you do it?

Ashkan Pitchforth: No. Um, in [00:17:05] the last two years, actually, we completely changed our, um, organisational [00:17:10] structure. Actually, that was one of the things that I worked, I learned in these last two years [00:17:15] before it was more me running the show entirely. It was heavily [00:17:20] reliant on me doing a lot. Um, or delegating jobs to people that were doing [00:17:25] it that that maybe didn’t understand, um, the responsibility, [00:17:30] Ability of the position that they had. So in the last two years, we I just [00:17:35] we literally just stripped out every single member, senior [00:17:40] management member apart from three, three, four essential ones [00:17:45] that I saw potential in them. Um, and trust. [00:17:50] Um, and then we, we built built it from from there. So, so [00:17:55] we, we have a very properly organised corporate head [00:18:00] office structure now, you know, CEO, chairman, CFO, you know, [00:18:05] CEO, HR director, operations director, uh Dental directors and [00:18:10] then everyone then falling underneath that, you know, managers, then within that systems in place. [00:18:15] So it’s not heavily reliant on myself. Um, and everyone takes [00:18:20] accountability and responsibility for their area. And then underneath that then you got the practice manager. [00:18:25] So going back to your question, do we rely on the practice managers for growth. Now we rely on [00:18:30] them on, on, on following our vision and our principles and grinding it like that. Um, [00:18:35] but the the vision and the principles, the creativity comes from the higher level, myself [00:18:40] and the team, um, which is where it’s been a bit tricky in dentistry because the thing is, you can’t actually [00:18:45] measure creativity. No.

Payman Langroudi: So some [00:18:50] of the most important stuff you can’t measure.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No you can’t. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, that’s really interesting, really important point. [00:18:55] You know, because corporate structures want measurement all the time. Yeah. Um, [00:19:00] and when you come to sell this thing, measurements will be important. So that’s why they, you know, they do it, [00:19:05] but you can’t measure the feeling that someone gets from in [00:19:10] our, in our world, the feeling that someone gets from using a quality product difficult to measure. [00:19:15]

Ashkan Pitchforth: It’s impossible. You can’t you can’t, you can’t measure that. Yeah. You can’t measure how someone feels. You know how [00:19:20] oh, wow. You know, how would you measure that on a scale? Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:19:25] it’s a, it’s an important thing because sometimes I’ve heard Johnny or [00:19:30] someone talking about this. You know, the guy who invented the iPhone. [00:19:35] Oh, right. And he was talking about when you unbox it. And as the cable [00:19:40] drops out of the way that, you know, the way they pack it. Yes. That that bit of magic that happens, [00:19:45] there is something that you go back to. Yeah. The designer, [00:19:50] something like like a meeting between you and the designer of that product. Right.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. That’s true, that’s [00:19:55] very true.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s impossible to measure it. Yeah. But in many ways, the reason why you [00:20:00] want an iPhone is many of those things. It could be like the most important thing [00:20:05] to that product, but impossible to measure it. Yeah. So yeah.

Ashkan Pitchforth: It is. It’s [00:20:10] the intricacies and the detail I find. Um, and [00:20:15] that creates something unique. Yeah. [00:20:20] Um, that makes something stand out. And I think if you focus on all those intricacies [00:20:25] and then, you know, then it pays, it pays off. And yeah, I agree.

Payman Langroudi: But from the [00:20:30] sort of the patient experience, would you say there’s a unique patient journey [00:20:35] in all of the practices, or would you say they’re all very different? Um, do [00:20:40] you work on that?

Ashkan Pitchforth: No. I mean, we are. Yes. Patient journey is very important, and we are trying to look at [00:20:45] that and constantly look at that, you know, from from phoning in [00:20:50] to turning up to sitting down. Um, I think, I [00:20:55] think there’s a lot of having looked at it now, I [00:21:00] think there’s a and seeing what other practices do, there’s a lot of practices out there that just [00:21:05] give too much attention to the wrong stuff. My my, [00:21:10] my my personal viewpoint anyway, you know, like.

Payman Langroudi: Give me an example.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I mean, I see [00:21:15] these practices out there where they honestly and I was saying this on a, on a, on a, on a course once where, you [00:21:20] know, the practice is, is that, is that that beautiful inside, [00:21:25] you know. You’ve got gold taps, you know, in the toilets. And you’re sitting in a waiting [00:21:30] room that looks like it’s something. It should be. It should be. You should be sitting in, you know, uh, [00:21:35] Louis Vuitton or something, you know. Or, um, one of the fashion houses. [00:21:40] Um, but do patients really care about that? Whereas [00:21:45] my point, my my point of view would be actually patients more care about [00:21:50] getting an appointment on time. Yeah. The appointment being worked around their [00:21:55] their social life or their ability to come. Things like parking, accessibility [00:22:00] and then obviously the condition that they see and how they’re treated as opposed [00:22:05] to all that. And even when I had I mean, I’ve, I’ve had loads of [00:22:10] cosmetic surgeries in the past and tattoos and all this kind of stuff. And, you know, I don’t [00:22:15] I don’t choose a place based upon the way it looks. I choose a place based upon [00:22:20] the practitioner at the end of it. Um, and.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, the thing is, [00:22:25] I hear you. Yeah. There’s nothing worse than a restaurant that looks beautiful. And the food’s [00:22:30] terrible, right? Yes, I get that. I get that’s very true. But the difference in dentistry is, [00:22:35] look, at the end of the day, you’ve got. You get the tattoo. You can look. You can see the tattoo. Yeah. You [00:22:40] can sort of give an evaluation of the quality of that tattoo by the final result. Most [00:22:45] of dentistry patients can’t tell whether it was good or bad. Most of it. I mean, [00:22:50] of course, you’ve got high end cosmetic dentistry or whatever. Ortho, maybe you can tell. But most [00:22:55] dentistry, your patient cannot tell whether that matrix was put on correctly or not. Cannot [00:23:00] tell whether you, you know, did anything right or not. Yeah. So then that leaves [00:23:05] non-clinical cues as the only thing that they’ve got to [00:23:10] go on. Now I understand. Yeah. An appointment on time. That’s a non-clinical [00:23:15] cue. Yeah. But I go to. I’ve been to thousands of practices, I think. And you [00:23:20] know what I mean by the cobweb in the corner, that you don’t see [00:23:25] yourself when you work in a place, you don’t see it because you’ve been working there for so long. [00:23:30] And yet, from a patient perspective, that cobweb could tell them more about [00:23:35] the practice from their perspective than than the filling, because they don’t know what you did [00:23:40] with the filling. Yeah. Yeah. So in a way, how things look, how clean the toilet [00:23:45] is, all that stuff is a reflection for patients. Now, me and you know that [00:23:50] there is no link between how clean the toilet is and how well the matrix is put on the tooth. We [00:23:55] know that.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, if we’re serving our patients and we want them to think that we’re good, [00:24:00] we I think we need to focus a bit more on that sort of stuff. I mean. [00:24:05]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Cleanliness, I mean, yeah, I’m of course 110%. And [00:24:10] just having something standard is okay, but I’m mainly making reference to when [00:24:15] people go overboard, you know, and and it then becomes ridiculous. I mean, I liken it to [00:24:20] McDonald’s. Patients go to McDonald’s. Patients? Customers go [00:24:25] to McDonald’s, obviously, for food, you know, because you have the consistency. They know [00:24:30] exactly what they’re going to get. Yeah. And it’s not it’s not as high end as if you go. If you go, you know, [00:24:35] to, uh, um, to Cecconi’s in Mayfair, you know, a high end Italian [00:24:40] place. Yeah. Um, the two different ends of the ends of it. But then over your [00:24:45] lifetime, you’re more likely going to frequent a McDonalds or Nando’s [00:24:50] more often than you would the high end Knightsbridge restaurants.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And that’s the [00:24:55] that’s where that’s essentially our models are built on. You get that, you get the standardisation, you get the [00:25:00] cleanliness, you get everything like that. Yes. It’s not a high end like a Knightsbridge practice, but [00:25:05] people are going to keep on coming back for that reason because of the consistency and [00:25:10] the quality and this kind of stuff. That’s kind of what I’m getting at rather than. Of course, if there’s. Honestly, [00:25:15] I’ve been in. If I go into one of our practices. And there’s there’s something wrong, like a bit of dust [00:25:20] or a cobweb or toilet roll that hasn’t been placed. Oh, honestly, I go absolutely nuts. [00:25:25] I mean, I’m a stickler for.

Payman Langroudi: Well, let’s get to that then. Let’s get to that. What is your leadership [00:25:30] style? Um, because I met your your I think top people. Right? [00:25:35] Yeah. And was that the sort of the 3 or 4 people that.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Rachel Charlotte Green? Yeah. [00:25:40] It’s like.

Payman Langroudi: And they all seem to love you. They all seem to love you. Um, but when [00:25:45] you say you go mad, you go crazy. Like, what are you. What kind of boss are you? Are you, are you easy [00:25:50] to to work for or difficult?

Ashkan Pitchforth: No no no no no no. I mean I, I believe [00:25:55] no I believe, I believe I’m easy, easy to work for. I mean, the thing is, is that [00:26:00] the people that. It’s. [00:26:05] I like high standards. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. And I’m not going to [00:26:10] lower my standards just to just to please someone or people. I’m all for. [00:26:15] But I’m. But I’m also quite cutting in what I. I’m not going to beat around the bush if I, [00:26:20] if, if I think something I’m gonna say no. That’s that’s shit. You [00:26:25] know, that idea is crap. I’m not going to turn out. Oh, fantastic. That’s great. Well, yeah. [00:26:30] Thank you for your hard work. And I’m thinking, Jesus, it took you, like, three days to do that when literally, you know, I could [00:26:35] have done it in about half an hour. Um, so there’s I’m. I’m [00:26:40] honest. Um, which, yeah, you could say it’s a bit of a downfall sometimes. [00:26:45] Um, but, but but then also then I’m once you’ve kind of [00:26:50] once I learn to trust you, and I know you’re hardworking and you’re bedded in. Then. Then it’s almost like you [00:26:55] become part of my family, and then I will do anything for you. I’d love you to, you know, till [00:27:00] the cows come home. Um, my leadership skills is, I think, [00:27:05] has changed somewhat over the last few years.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I’ve mellowed out a bit more maybe, [00:27:10] than what I used to be. Um, only because I’ve been. I have to be, you learn to be able to delegate, [00:27:15] learn to be able to maybe let go sometimes, but then then. But [00:27:20] the thing is, is that is that I go home. When I go home, it’s it’s [00:27:25] all on me still, you know, it’s my names linked to the company. So a [00:27:30] bad review or a bad reflection on something then it’s almost like a bad reflection on myself. So I take it quite [00:27:35] personally. And that’s, that’s quite a it’s hard sometimes to deal with this because then you’re relying on other people [00:27:40] representing you, representing your brand. Um, and if they let things down [00:27:45] or let you down, then you’ve got to decide. Do you continue them letting you down [00:27:50] or do you? There’s a point where you have to stop and say, you know what, actually, I can’t continue this because, you [00:27:55] know, we’re not family. We’re not related that I have to continue it. You know, I need [00:28:00] to I need to focus on having that, having that excellence and that brand. And so [00:28:05] yeah, it’s a it’s a balance. It’s certainly a balance.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, you don’t [00:28:10] get to 24 practices without trusting people. Yeah. You know that you’re [00:28:15] making. You’re making that you’re this control freak. I mean, you I’m sure you are. But you [00:28:20] don’t get to 24 practices without trusting a bunch. A bunch of people. No no no no no. [00:28:25]

Ashkan Pitchforth: And also when when the times are half tough. Like when it was tough. Yeah. In [00:28:30] 23, those three people were mentioned, you know, they stayed. They stayed. [00:28:35] And where everyone else went, everyone else was quick to leave. You know, they [00:28:40] trusted me, you know, and it’s hard to trust someone. It’s hard when you turn around to someone and say, you know what? We’re [00:28:45] we’re at the bottom now, but please trust me, we’re going to we’re going to get back. You [00:28:50] know, it takes a lot for people to. And so I’m very I’m very grateful, [00:28:55] um, to especially to those who into all that. And so there’s a lot of others actually that did, that did trust me [00:29:00] at that point in time because some because the banks didn’t the banks were close to be like, no, no, no, [00:29:05] that’s not gonna work. How are you going to pull this back? How are you going to go from performing a year end [00:29:10] Around 65% of your NHS target. To [00:29:15] 110% the next year, because no group in in the [00:29:20] UK has ever done that before, has ever flipped that around that easily and that quickly before. Yeah. And we did, um. [00:29:25]

Payman Langroudi: What was the reason for underperforming the contract and did [00:29:30] you see that? Did you realise it quick enough or did you realise it too late or.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Realise it too late? [00:29:35]

Payman Langroudi: So was it you weren’t keeping your eye on the numbers.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Wasn’t keeping my eye on the numbers? Yeah. Focusing [00:29:40] on other stuff around, not keeping the core principles of the business in place, which I [00:29:45] used to, uh, at the beginning, um, the UDA delivery, the private revenue delivery, [00:29:50] uh, the um, diary utilisation, focusing on other stuff like marketing [00:29:55] and Instagram and all this kind of stuff and going, going that way and then not keeping [00:30:00] or not keeping track of that and then realising it too late and then trying to claw it back at the end and then thinking, [00:30:05] yeah, we should better claw it back because most people do. And then realising, oh, know. Actually, we’re not going to [00:30:10] call this back. And then once it’s too late, it’s too late. Um, and then I think [00:30:15] me taking my eye off the ball as a CEO for a period of time, for about six months, [00:30:20] you know, focusing on that and not being hell bent and focussed on, on the business, um, [00:30:25] I think I think then led to, led to that kind of downfall happens.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:30:30] happens, doesn’t it? I mean, over a period of years, I think back to times [00:30:35] where I, you know, just just wasn’t feeling it in the same way. And you’ve [00:30:40] changed a lot since the last time you were on. So last time you were on, you were giant. [00:30:45] Yeah.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You were huge guy.

Ashkan Pitchforth: £250. [00:30:50]

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And now I’m 125. Half the [00:30:55] weight I’ve lost. Yeah. Pretty much half my body weight. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Talk me through what happened.

Ashkan Pitchforth: So, [00:31:00] yeah, I mean, I just, I mean, in 2020. So I think you would [00:31:05] have tracked back. So when I went to university, Versity. Um, I started I started bodybuilding [00:31:10] during that period of time and, and, and got to a and [00:31:15] got to a big weight, good physique and then met my, uh, met a girl [00:31:20] at the time at uni who then later became my wife. Um, and um, but during [00:31:25] that period of time at uni, you know, taking, taking anabolic steroids because there’s no way you [00:31:30] can physically get to that size of muscle. You [00:31:35] can get to that size of fat, but of muscle, pure quality muscle without taking peds [00:31:40] performance enhancing drugs. Um, and doing that.

Payman Langroudi: Took me [00:31:45] through. Took me through what what does what do anabolic steroids do? Do they help with recovery? [00:31:50] Yeah. Is that what it is.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Well there’s so peds part of PEDs are anabolic [00:31:55] steroids. It’s a part of it. It’s anabolic steroids. Help with recovery, help with muscle [00:32:00] growth. Um, because the body is limited, you’re limited to the hormones. It’s. [00:32:05] The growth is related to how much growth hormone you have in your body, how much testosterone you have in your body, [00:32:10] which is driving muscle repair. Um, so there’s that. Um, [00:32:15] but then there’s other peds that exist, um, that also help with, uh, [00:32:20] performance. Um, you know, like, um, levothyroxine is an example, [00:32:25] you know, stimulating your thyroid, obviously, to reduce your body fat, um, and [00:32:30] other things that would reduce, like your water retention and all that kind of stuff. So there’s a combination, there’s a cocktail [00:32:35] almost. And, um, some of them are tablet form, some of them are injectables. [00:32:40] Um, and um.

Payman Langroudi: So, I mean, you, I [00:32:45] guess, researched all of this. Yeah. And spoke to people and so on. Yeah. What [00:32:50] was were you sort of single mindedly obsessed with becoming as big as [00:32:55] possible with the minimum body fat and not thinking about consequences of that? [00:33:00]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Well, I think it relates back to having body dysmorphia, which is I still have. But I’ve learned to control. [00:33:05]

Payman Langroudi: But did you even recognise it as that?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Not that. Not at that time. Now, having gone through. What were.

Payman Langroudi: You thinking? You [00:33:10] just think I’m just gonna get bigger and bigger and bigger.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Now I look in [00:33:15] the mirror every morning. When I look in the mirror, I look in the mirror and think, man, I don’t like the [00:33:20] person that’s looking back at me either. I think I’m too fat at the moment, or I’m thinking I’m too skinny. Um, I [00:33:25] think my nose is too big or my ears stick out too much, or, you know, my eyebrows are too wonky. So you know, you’re [00:33:30] as when you’ve got body dysmorphia. You’re constantly criticising yourself, even though you might look okay. Um, [00:33:35] so, um, back then, in having built a dysmorphia, [00:33:40] as I look at myself and think, I need more confidence, maybe the more confidence is getting bigger. Developing [00:33:45] that ultimate physique, that that beauty. Um, and then also loving art [00:33:50] and anatomy and being able to look at your body and to sculptor it and sculpt, sculpt it. Really. [00:33:55] Um, and, um, so that’s what I got into then.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:34:00] the way you describe it, it’s kind of a moving target, right? In a way. So let’s say you [00:34:05] hyper focus on your ears for the sake of the argument. Then you pin them back. [00:34:10] Then you start focusing on something else. Yeah, that’s that’s the nature of it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: That’s the nature of body dysmorphia. [00:34:15] You. It’s very hard to cure. You’ve got to learn to control it. It’s very hard to cure it.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:34:20] even though you know that, you still fall into it, right? Yeah. I mean, I guess it’s like knowing cigarettes [00:34:25] are bad for you, but still smoking them, right? It’s a similar thing.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yes, exactly. Um, [00:34:30] and, uh. And. Yeah, so, so I, I mean, in terms going back to your question of how [00:34:35] did I do it? You get a coach. They teach you, you know, you you learn these things, you read things [00:34:40] in books and magazines and all that kind of stuff. What to do, what to take. Um, it’s kind of like a very dark. [00:34:45]

Payman Langroudi: And where did you get from a dealer? Is that how it works?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. I mean, [00:34:50] it’s not a backstreet place you go to, you know, you you leave a you leave some money in an envelope, and [00:34:55] then you and then you pick it up, and then you wink at someone, you just order them online. And the thing with [00:35:00] the thing with anabolic steroids is they’re not illegal in the UK to buy and possess and to take illegal [00:35:05] to sell. So. So yes, there’s nothing illegal in what you do. Um, that’s [00:35:10] why I didn’t, you know, that’s why I did it. I’ve never actually done any recreational drugs. I’ve never done anything illegal in [00:35:15] my life in that sense. Um, so. Yeah, so, so so I did it when I was at university for a period of time. [00:35:20] But then when I met, uh, my girlfriend at the time, who later became my wife, obviously [00:35:25] learning her influence, actually [00:35:30] feeling loved made me feel, actually, I don’t need this. Maybe this is something inside that’s actually [00:35:35] more important than the way you look as an outside. Um, and so therefore, I was I was [00:35:40] clean for 13 years during my marriage. But then at the end of the marriage, when it [00:35:45] was breaking down, then the thoughts come back into your mind of maybe the marriage is breaking down [00:35:50] because of the way I look. Therefore I need to take something in order to then change my physique [00:35:55] and improve my physique.

Payman Langroudi: It’s all fell back into it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Exactly. And then I fell back into it. Right. I’m [00:36:00] actually thinking it’s because I worked too much and I didn’t. Actually, uh, devote. I mean, the marriage [00:36:05] broke down simply because of me. It wasn’t. It wasn’t for my, uh, for my ex wife. And, [00:36:10] um.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a good I mean, the other one, you know, sort of fetishise that. Thing. But [00:36:15] is it to do with sort of this level of obsession? Because it must take to go to go? I mean, [00:36:20] I was at your ten year anniversary in ten years to go to 24, [00:36:25] actually, you got to 24 even before ten years before.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, we did years before.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe six, seven [00:36:30] years. Right? Yeah. To get from one practice to 24 in 6, [00:36:35] seven years takes a degree of obsession, right?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: And that obsession [00:36:40] comes with sacrifice.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And so, okay, we talked about the physical sacrifices [00:36:45] and the health care and mental health and all that. Explain to me what happened to your marriage. [00:36:50] I mean, were you not there for her or not there for life events or. [00:36:55] Yeah. Is that what it was?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. I mean, the thing with I think when you’re, when [00:37:00] you’ve got, when you’ve got a personality like mine, which is ones that you would say maybe describes [00:37:05] someone that’s entrepreneurial and driven and hard working is that I will work [00:37:10] harder than anyone else to win. I’ll do anything to win. And even if it sacrifices, [00:37:15] you’re putting my health on the line. I’ll do anything. Um, it’s something that’s inbuilt. [00:37:20] I don’t know what it is. Um, if you give. If you say. If you give me a challenge, I’ll do it [00:37:25] no matter what. Um, and the thing, obviously, with growing the business and trying to be the best. And that’s what I wanted [00:37:30] to do at the start, it was more of organic and then wanted to go into it thinking, oh, actually, no, no, no. Why can’t I have [00:37:35] ten practices? And then when you get to ten, why can’t I have 12? Why can’t I have 15? When you hit 10 million turnover, [00:37:40] why can’t I have 15 million? Why can’t I have 20 million? You keep going and keep going and keep going. And so therefore, [00:37:45] you just have to put in the hours and the time. Um, and then feel. And then you feel guilty when [00:37:50] you’re not putting that time and then it’s.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And then things give. So yeah, it was, it was me simply just working. [00:37:55] Working constantly. Working all the time. Um, you know, on my laptop at home. [00:38:00] Um, on my phone, um, all the time. All the time. And then. And then, because you’re [00:38:05] building and growing the business, you can’t just do that side of things. You then have to do the extracurricular activities. [00:38:10] Like, I was a clinical advisor for three years for the NHS to learn from. My point of view was to learn about [00:38:15] how the inner workings of the NHS work and the GDS contracts and all the regulations, things like that. So then I’ve [00:38:20] got to do that on as well as on the side, you know, as well as doing my own job, you [00:38:25] know. So it’s just I just put, I just put the hours in and didn’t devote [00:38:30] my time, didn’t have that break for family. And then eventually it gives, [00:38:35] you know, that other person. Then, you know, you just end up neglecting them and you grow apart. [00:38:40] That’s exactly what happened. We we just we just grew. It was too far. We were too far.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:38:45] again noticed too late.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Noticed too late from my point of view. Noticed too late. All the signals were there. [00:38:50] But I was stupid. Which is. Yeah, it’s one of those. It’s.

Payman Langroudi: What have [00:38:55] you learned to forgive yourself around these sort of situations or. No. Does it still bother [00:39:00] you? Does it still?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. You know, I don’t. I’m very critical of myself. [00:39:05] I don’t forgive myself for anything, you know, um, I don’t I don’t think you can I my belief. [00:39:10] I don’t think you can forgive yourself for anything. I think I need, I need the person that you harm [00:39:15] or any the person that is affected by your actions can forgive you. You can’t forgive yourself [00:39:20] for things. That’s my opinion anyway.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, look, you must have thought [00:39:25] about this, right? Like, where does it come from? Why why [00:39:30] why do you have to be obsessed with winning? Where does that come from? Was is [00:39:35] there something in your childhood that you thought? I mean, the previous pod you were saying you’re both. Your parents worked [00:39:40] their butts off and you learnt hard work from them both. Nurses, right? [00:39:45]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: You learnt hard work from them? Yeah, but was there. I mean, something [00:39:50] in your childhood that said I’ve got to break through. Breakthrough. You’ve got a brother, right? Yes. Is he like that?

Ashkan Pitchforth: No. [00:39:55] Completely.

Payman Langroudi: Very different.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Very different.

Payman Langroudi: He’s like me and my brother. Very different too.

Ashkan Pitchforth: He lives [00:40:00] a relaxed life, which is good in that respect. You know, he’s amazing [00:40:05] life, you know? He watches TV. I never. I can’t watch TV all the time.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:40:10] does he do?

Ashkan Pitchforth: So he’s a qualified dentist, but he focuses more on the Botox [00:40:15] and fillers and the. And the aesthetic, um, face stuff. [00:40:20] So not actually the physical drilling and filling and things, but I don’t know. I mean, linking it back to going [00:40:25] through rehab for the, the the steroids, the drug addiction, [00:40:30] the body dysmorphia. I think I think, yeah, I kind of like touched on it with some [00:40:35] therapists that I think it was childhood of just, I [00:40:40] don’t know, maybe it’s the upbringing of just my parents didn’t [00:40:45] force me. No, no, no, they didn’t force me to, to to to do well. But That [00:40:50] they they almost said that, you know, the world is your [00:40:55] oyster and there’s no ceiling. So if you want to achieve, go and achieve. Keep pushing yourself. And I think [00:41:00] having that drive at a young age just maybe just seeps in and you just can’t let [00:41:05] it go. Um, but that’s not a bad thing in all respect. In some respects, it’s not a bad [00:41:10] thing.

Payman Langroudi: Everything has good and bad in it. You know, that’s that’s what I’ve come to realise that your [00:41:15] biggest strength is your biggest weakness. Yes. You know, so whether, you know, it’s very easy to [00:41:20] say, is it a good thing or a bad thing? Without realising, it’s a good and a bad thing. Yeah. [00:41:25] Yeah. Most things. Yeah. Right. Most things. You could. You could be the kindest guy in the world. [00:41:30] And then when it comes to firing people, you can’t fire them because you’re too kind.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. [00:41:35]

Payman Langroudi: You know, you don’t want to change, ruin someone’s life or something, you know, like. So even something as kindness, [00:41:40] something as beautiful as kindness can be a massive weakness. Of course. Yeah. You know, [00:41:45] and you alluded to it before. If someone’s not doing their job. Yeah. You know, for the business, you have [00:41:50] to sort of act.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. Of course.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, so that’s one [00:41:55] thing, but have you read the I mean, for me, it would be the Tick Tock, the [00:42:00] book. There’s a book that palliative care nurse, she goes around, [00:42:05] um, nursing homes talking to people who are definitely [00:42:10] going to die.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Oh, no.

Payman Langroudi: And ask them what their biggest regrets are in life. Wow. And then she’d [00:42:15] written a book, The Five Regrets of the dying.

Ashkan Pitchforth: What are they?

Payman Langroudi: So look, most of them you [00:42:20] can guess, right? Things that I wish I stayed more in touch with friends and family. Yeah. I wish I worked less, [00:42:25] by the way. Um, I’d say that’s more an employee mindset than [00:42:30] a than a business owner mindset. Yeah. Um, but the one that I want you to focus on is. I wish [00:42:35] I’d allowed myself to be more happy. Yeah. Yeah. [00:42:40] And and, you know, this question of. Progress [00:42:45] And contentment being in opposition? [00:42:50] Yes. Yeah. A lot of us have that feeling that if I’m content, that means I’m not [00:42:55] progressing.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yes. Static. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But when you look back [00:43:00] or when I look back, ten years ago, I was a very happy person. [00:43:05] But I wasn’t allowing myself to be happy. Yes. Because I thought I need to progress. And [00:43:10] so then you you fast forward ten years from now, you’re [00:43:15] going to look back on today and think, My God, I was happy. Yes. Back [00:43:20] then. Yeah. And, you know, managing that tension [00:43:25] between contentment and progress. Yeah. You [00:43:30] know, for years and years and years, I used to fool myself in thinking, you know, pleasure [00:43:35] and happiness were in the same area. Yes. But they’re not.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:43:40] definitely not. And contentment. Totally different area. Completely, completely [00:43:45] different area to pleasure and happiness. Yeah, but, you know, solving that as a, as a, as a business owner, [00:43:50] it kind of sounds a bit weak to say I’m content. Yeah, [00:43:55] but contentment must be peace must be the goal, [00:44:00] right?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yes, yes.

Payman Langroudi: What do you think about all that?

Ashkan Pitchforth: I [00:44:05] think it’s it’s in weight. I [00:44:10] think life is too. There’s two parts of life. There’s there’s work life. There’s non-work [00:44:15] life. Um. So I [00:44:20] love my work. I love it. Um. I’m passionate. Um. [00:44:25] And that’s why I want to keep on progressing. Because it just drives me to wake up and to keep going. [00:44:30] So am I content in work life and [00:44:35] will I ever be content? No, I don’t think I would. Um, because I want that [00:44:40] to be a driver, to be a motivation.

Payman Langroudi: But there you go again, telling [00:44:45] me that they’re in opposition to each other.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, they are in opposition. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I get you, I get you when [00:44:50] you go to the gym and build muscle. If you’re content, you’re not going to turn up anymore. You’re not going.

Ashkan Pitchforth: To.

Payman Langroudi: Push as [00:44:55] hard as you have to push. Yeah. Like I’ve never really done it. But I’m sure sometimes you’re, you’re you’re pushing [00:45:00] a weight that literally might rip something or you know, that a content person isn’t [00:45:05] about to do that.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No, no, no. That’s true.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, so I get that. But at the same time, [00:45:10] right. The let’s say you get $1 billion [00:45:15] exit, let’s imagine it. Yeah. Well, the next day you’re still [00:45:20] ash. Yeah. You still got the same everything. Yeah. Except you got $1 billion in the bank. [00:45:25] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And you could you could chalk it up and say, [00:45:30] hey, I did. My parents said I could achieve anything, and I did achieve $1 billion. Okay. [00:45:35] So, like what what what’s what does that [00:45:40] solve? Like.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No it.

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t. But but then what I’m saying about childhood is maybe there is [00:45:45] a deficit from childhood. We all have them. We all have them.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, maybe.

Payman Langroudi: A deficit [00:45:50] from childhood where you’re trying to fill it with this achievement. Yeah. Let’s say.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. No, [00:45:55] I completely agree. I think you’re right. I think you’re right. I don’t think I’ll ever be content. Even if I had [00:46:00] a.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just not in you.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Billion dollars or something like that. I just don’t think I’d ever be content. I’d just keep. I just keep [00:46:05] wanting to go and focus on the next thing and the next idea and the next project. And yeah.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve [00:46:10] got to do what we’re good at as well, right? Yeah. If you’re not good at contentment, it’s never going to work for you.

Ashkan Pitchforth: But [00:46:15] then also, maybe those people are the visionaries, you know, the pioneers.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:46:20]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Which is not a bad thing, you know, because if you’re a pioneer or something and you’re a visionary, you’ll never be content. [00:46:25] Anything you do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, apparently Gandhi’s family used to hate him. Yeah, but, [00:46:30] you know. There we go again. So he’s a good [00:46:35] thing or a bad thing, you know, it’s like. It just is. Yeah. Let’s talk about Problems [00:46:40] you’ve been having with the GDC?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, well.

Payman Langroudi: You want to discuss.

Ashkan Pitchforth: That? Yeah. Of course. [00:46:45] Yeah, sure. Yes, definitely 100%. Yeah. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: Take me through.

Ashkan Pitchforth: It. Well, yeah. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:46:50] did it start?

Ashkan Pitchforth: In their eyes, I’m a bad boy, you know, uh, the allegations go back to over [00:46:55] seven years ago, you know, from. The thing is, is that there’s [00:47:00] been no patient issues at all. Um, I’m not trying to blow my own trumpet, but I think I’m a very good clinician. [00:47:05] You know, I’m a clinician. You know, I’m not. You know, I don’t do high end, [00:47:10] you know, highly street level of work. But I care for my patients. I [00:47:15] care for them no matter what. Um, my patients with all dignity and respect and humility. [00:47:20] Um, so there’s been no patient issues. Um, uh, but [00:47:25] obviously the issue obviously is, is the, the taking of the steroids, which they think is.

Payman Langroudi: How did they [00:47:30] come to hear about that?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Um, because, um, unfortunately. Well, not unfortunately unfortunately. [00:47:35] But I talk about it to people because I’m not, you know, I’m not so much embarrassed about [00:47:40] it. And at one point it was it was a bit too bloody obvious. And, you know, because you’re huge when you’re sitting there and you’ve got [00:47:45] 21 inch arms, you know, you want it, you know, in a triple XL doesn’t even fit you anymore. [00:47:50] Um, you know, you’ve got you’ve got muscle on top of muscle on top of muscle and it’s all just bulging [00:47:55] out. I mean, it’s, it’s it’s it’s obvious. Um, and also I do like to, [00:48:00] um, um, you know, I as part of being a, you [00:48:05] know, part of having that athletic ability or that focus on the way you look and things like that. [00:48:10] You know, I take photos and post them on my Instagram and, and sometimes they reveal [00:48:15] a lot of flesh, but nothing that is illegal. But according to maybe the gdc’s [00:48:20] eyes, that’s maybe not the most professional of things to do.

Payman Langroudi: But I don’t think what happened. Did you see? Look at your [00:48:25] Instagram.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No, no. So obviously employees, ex-employees, there might have been a bit disgruntled or write to them and say, [00:48:30] oh, did you know that one of your registrants takes anabolic steroids, which is again, not illegal to do? Um, [00:48:35] also, do you know, obviously.

Payman Langroudi: You bought like you fired someone and they were pissed.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Off. Exactly. Because some [00:48:40] people just want to stab stab you in the back. And not necessarily actually me, but obviously because I’m the face of it, [00:48:45] I have the brand. I take the full whack, almost. So, um, so, you [00:48:50] know, they don’t report a clinical director, you know, or, or the compliance manager [00:48:55] or something. There’s this GDC register, and they report, I get it. Um, and [00:49:00] over the over over years, it’s built up and built up and built up and allegations built up from. But [00:49:05] the thing is, which I guess the GDC don’t realise is that is that is that those people represent [00:49:10] less than 1% of the people that have worked for me. And you’re not going to always please 1%. And [00:49:15] actually those 1% are the ones that actually I don’t think they should [00:49:20] work in industry at all because they were utterly useless in the sense that not useless [00:49:25] in the sense that they, you know, they don’t put patient care first. [00:49:30] So I’m maintaining standards and chucking them out, and they’re trying to get back at me and the GDC, not look [00:49:35] at it and in thinking, actually. Actually, let’s look at it. And you’re the awful one here. He’s doing he’s doing [00:49:40] stuff for the greater good. So they have to investigate.

Payman Langroudi: So someone said something and [00:49:45] then.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And also things and things get misinterpreted because in the original, [00:49:50] when we originally set up this organisation, you know, no one teaches [00:49:55] you of how to act as the top is essentially like [00:50:00] the top guy, the CEO. Um, so, you know, at the [00:50:05] start, the organisation is almost like a kind of like a Google, kind [00:50:10] of like Apple, kind of like a very relaxed head office kind of situation and [00:50:15] scenario, you know. So one of the allegations is, I think it states that I was in a state [00:50:20] of undress in a common area. And what that relates to is that I went [00:50:25] and had my nipples pierced, came back to the office. Um, the girls [00:50:30] in the office were like, oh, great, ash, let’s see, you know, and there was about eight of them there. Um, [00:50:35] and I think one was a newbie. I said to everyone, is [00:50:40] everyone happy for me to take my top off for people to see? Yeah. Everyone was like, yes, yes, please, please, please done it. [00:50:45] Didn’t realise that newbie took a photo secretly. Um, and [00:50:50] then when we had to let her go because, um, you know, she she was, she was supposed to be a property manager, [00:50:55] and she couldn’t. I mean, I didn’t I don’t think she realised what a brick was, you know, that’s how useless she was.

Ashkan Pitchforth: She then [00:51:00] sent that to the GDC and said, this guy, you know, undresses himself in front of women [00:51:05] in the office. So it’s it’s then used against me. It’s flipped. [00:51:10] So having to have that experience now, if I were to come to the office and if [00:51:15] I’ve had something like a tattoo done, and if the girls say, I can have a look, I’ll be like, you know, I just wouldn’t even it wouldn’t be a topic of [00:51:20] conversation because you’ve learnt going through ten years of learning and the experience because that’s [00:51:25] not written in a book. There’s no rule of what to do. Um, but back then I trusted people. Back [00:51:30] then it was very relaxed environments. Back then it was okay. The three goals that I mentioned, [00:51:35] you know, that work very closely with. Yes. If we were together, I would trust them. You know, I would I [00:51:40] would be like, yeah, let’s look at this tattoo about that, you know, because you learn to trust them with your life. Um, and [00:51:45] some of our clinical directors and the same thing, um, Emile, he’s worked for me for years. [00:51:50] He’s, uh, you know, we have such a laugh together. Um, but, um, so. [00:51:55] Yeah. So, again, those kind of allegations build up, and the dude didn’t do anything for seven years.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Then all of a [00:52:00] sudden, I think they just thought, you know what? Let’s just try and make a make a thing of this. And then [00:52:05] and then it’s. And then I have this, this, this, this, this case going on to answer really. So [00:52:10] at the moment it’s at the interim orders stage where they kind of need to work out. Do they need to sanction [00:52:15] me. But then again that’s usually because they have to sanction you to put conditions [00:52:20] on you because they’re your threat to patients. If there’s not been a patient complaint, then what’s the issue? So [00:52:25] so it’s going backwards and forwards. It’s mine’s a very difficult and it doesn’t [00:52:30] fit the box. You know, usually it’s the GDC is you muck up with patients, you don’t take [00:52:35] radiographs, you don’t diagnose caries, or you’re rude to patient or you’re inappropriate to a patient. It’s a very clear cut, [00:52:40] you know, level of steps you’re going through. Mine is okay. He’s [00:52:45] he’s on his personal Instagram. He’s got his top off. Is [00:52:50] that no patients haven’t complained about that. Patients actually loved [00:52:55] it and commented and you know but then but then is that [00:53:00] deemed then unprofessional. And this is kind of that where you’re battling backwards [00:53:05] and forwards. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: So. Has this been a series of complaints to the GDC [00:53:10] from people like that? Yeah, yeah. So do you think you rub those people up the wrong way, or do [00:53:15] you think it’s. I mean, I know you’re probably an easy target. Yeah, I get it. Yeah, I get [00:53:20] that. But are you rubbing people up the wrong way? Are you firing people in an aggressive [00:53:25] way or, you know, to get a series?

Ashkan Pitchforth: No, I think I think the thing [00:53:30] is the difference. I think for me, in terms of in [00:53:35] terms of recruitment and organisation, is that a lot of people, what they would do is when they hire someone [00:53:40] and they’re not fit for the role, they don’t [00:53:45] end it straight away. They give that person a chance. So many [00:53:50] chances. Yeah. And then over a period of a year, there’s no improvement. [00:53:55] And that person that’s hired them ends up doing the job anyway. Yeah. And you’ve got nowhere. Then you’re firing them after a year. [00:54:00] So you might as well do it after two days. Yeah. There’s there’s no point stringing someone along for that [00:54:05] period of time. Yeah. And I’m quite quick in the sense that if they take them on, if I spend time with someone, [00:54:10] if I, if I clock their ethos, their vision is not aligned with mine, there’s no point in continuing. [00:54:15] So let’s just call it quits. Um, and I think also so that’s, that’s one [00:54:20] flip side of the coin and the other flip side of coin, which we don’t do now. No person in our organisation is a locum. [00:54:25] We hired a lot of locums in the past. A lot of locum dentists, some of them are great. I’ve worked [00:54:30] with some locums that stayed with me for, you know, ten years and then converted to [00:54:35] become almost like a permanent associate. But a lot of locums out there, they just are just they’re locums [00:54:40] for a reason. They can’t get a permanent job because no one wants to have them permanently. And [00:54:45] they’re just God awful. And I tell them, because I’m a clinician myself, I just I’m not being funny. [00:54:50] But, you know, you were contracted to do, say, 30 Udas today. You’ve done two because you’ve [00:54:55] rebooked all of your band one scale and polishes. You had half an hour for an appointment. What was the [00:55:00] point of that? Because you just couldn’t be bothered. So and unfortunately, I tell them sometimes the truth [00:55:05] which they don’t want to.

Payman Langroudi: Hear, you’re a bit too direct.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I’m quite direct. I’m quite. Which is good in a way. Um, [00:55:10] and now everyone that everyone, everyone that works with me obviously is [00:55:15] the elite almost. And the thing that I get a lot of groups out there, [00:55:20] what they would do is they almost take people on because they’re desperate. Whereas I’m [00:55:25] always like, run it like a football team, you know? I will take you on if you pass the test. Almost. [00:55:30] If you’re good, you come in. If you’re not good, then why would I have you? You know, you don’t have a football team that’s made [00:55:35] up of 11 bad players. Um, your top squad? Almost. You want them to be the [00:55:40] elite so you can take on. There’s a lot of groups out there. Won’t. And so therefore we’re very I’m very [00:55:45] tight with that. But then again, those people that get then disgruntled and upset [00:55:50] because they had to be let go, their way of taking out their frustrations rather than reflecting and thinking, [00:55:55] you know, actually, what can I do to improve myself? They think, okay, let me just let me just if [00:56:00] you sent me an email that can possibly be twisted into sense that maybe [00:56:05] he was trying to be a bit sarcastic or a bit, you know, a bit eccentric, then maybe let’s send that [00:56:10] across.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And, and then the GDC kind of pick up on that. Oh, yeah. Well, you shouldn’t have said that. And, you [00:56:15] know, and my, my, my, my outside of work now it’s very hard to differentiate [00:56:20] between, you know, there’s a fine line, isn’t there, between who you are outside of work and who [00:56:25] you are inside of work. Especially given that my whole life is work. So then the fine [00:56:30] line gets crossed and my sense of humour is that of a Ricky Gervais. You know, [00:56:35] it’s quite, quite sarcastic, quite dark. I hate I don’t [00:56:40] like slapstick comedy. I like, I like intellectual comedy. [00:56:45] Um, unfortunately, then if you use that inside work, sometimes people take that in the wrong way [00:56:50] because they don’t understand that actually you’re coming across to be quite humorous and quite witty in that sort of [00:56:55] thing. Um, so that’s another thing I’ve learned over the period of time, is that sometimes you’ve actually almost got [00:57:00] to be, which frustrates me. You’ve got to be. You’ve got to almost be an actor when you’re in work. Sometimes [00:57:05] you can’t let out your true self in all, in all things. But, [00:57:10] um, well.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s interesting. It’s it’s the difference between a small Start-Up. [00:57:15] Yes. Yeah. And where you literally can do whatever you like. And that’s almost [00:57:20] the brilliant part about it. You’re almost like a it’s almost a piece of art [00:57:25] where you’re kind of expressing yourself. Yeah. And a corporate, which is [00:57:30] what you are where it’s very different. Right? Very, very different. [00:57:35] And, you know, you’re right. You learn as you as you as you go through it. I’m the [00:57:40] same as you. I’ve said things that I shouldn’t have said or or whatever. Um, [00:57:45] but you come to learn that, you know, even body language is gigantic. [00:57:50] It’s a gigantic thing. Yeah. Yeah. Little wave. It’s a huge thing. [00:57:55]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. No.

Payman Langroudi: It’s true.

Ashkan Pitchforth: It’s true. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, but, you know, [00:58:00] I, I want to get back to the GDC thing. So what what is going to happen [00:58:05] next? You’re in the middle of it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. So I think I’ve got interim or [00:58:10] interim committee hearing or orders. Committee is the end of June. [00:58:15] And that decides whether they need to put any sanctions. And then hopefully there won’t [00:58:20] be any. Apart from maybe, um, continuance of testing. Clean [00:58:25] for steroids, which is what I’m doing now, is fine. And then I think the actual final [00:58:30] hearing probably will come a year down the line. But again, you [00:58:35] know, it doesn’t it doesn’t. Whatever conditions they put on now won’t affect me doing the [00:58:40] job I’m doing. That’s the difference. That’s the thing because it’s not patient related. And that’s why it’s kind of [00:58:45] they’re having difficulty because they can’t get involved in the commercial side. They can’t tell you. Oh by the way, don’t [00:58:50] send an email to a staff member. Yeah [00:58:55] that’s the thing. And if I go into so I think one of the allegations, which I think is absolutely ludicrous, [00:59:00] is I tore down a poster in a practice. Right. [00:59:05] So I mean, I mean, that’s a bit pathetic.

Payman Langroudi: Pulled it off the wall. [00:59:10]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, right. Now what they don’t realise.

Payman Langroudi: Is that good with.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Them. Well, yeah. Exactly. But also [00:59:15] what they don’t realise is, is that I’m particular. So if there’s going to be any, anything displayed in a practice. It has [00:59:20] to meet the it has to be approved because it could be wrong information. And also it has to look nice. It has to be laminated. It can’t [00:59:25] just be a shitty bit of paper. And I went into one practice [00:59:30] in in Southampton, and the manager at the time decided to display something that [00:59:35] was completely non-compliant. So I just went up to it and I just went and took it down. I just [00:59:40] literally just. But yeah, because it was stuck up there. So obviously he’s not got pins in it. So I’m gently [00:59:45] undo the pins. I went in there and said, what’s this? Who done this? Oh, I did this. I said, you do realise this actually is [00:59:50] not in part of the regulations what you’ve written? And then he was like, oh, oh yeah. I didn’t realise I was like, [00:59:55] okay, but I’ve got to take it down. And I took it down. But obviously because he left in a bad way, he said, oh, he came in and [01:00:00] tore down a poster. So again, it’s this, it’s these pathetic kind of like things [01:00:05] that if the GDC actually looked into this and sat down with a case examiner, [01:00:10] with clinical dentists, with people who have knowledge and, and say, actually, okay, what is it exactly that [01:00:15] happened? So not what’s portrayed that happen because someone’s peed off. Because obviously we had to let that manager go. [01:00:20]

Ashkan Pitchforth: He was useless. Um, and funny enough, he goes and works for some of [01:00:25] our competitors. You know, who we turf out, and other people that are desperate end up taking in, [01:00:30] um, and, um, they don’t look at it and say, actually, what’s, what’s really happened [01:00:35] and then look and look at and think, actually, this is fine. This is not bad. This is okay. [01:00:40] This is what happens. This is normal. Well, how would you how would you expect him to have got rid of that. [01:00:45] And he needed to get rid of that there and then because it was non-compliant. So he had to take it down immediately. It [01:00:50] was stuck with Sellotape. So he had to tear it off the wall. It’s his building. [01:00:55] He owns the place. It’s not someone else’s. What should [01:01:00] he do at the dead of night where no one sees? Because I think that’s what the other allegation was. He tore down [01:01:05] a post in front of patients. Yeah. And also it was an A4 piece of paper. [01:01:10] So it wasn’t a great big poster like you probably have visited me gripping this great big thing and tearing it down, this paper [01:01:15] flying everywhere. And patients are you know, it’s falling onto patients and God knows what’s happening. It’s not any [01:01:20] of that stuff. It’s just such a simple thing that they just. But unfortunately, when you rise [01:01:25] up in the world, some of the regulators like to bring you back down and just [01:01:30] kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, dude, but do you accept that sometimes the way [01:01:35] you say something or the way you do something affects [01:01:40] the situation more? I mean, we can clinically look at it and [01:01:45] say, well, what happened? He took a poster down from his own building. Yeah, I accept that. That’s the way you’re [01:01:50] going to talk about it when someone’s accusing you of something. But but do you also acknowledge [01:01:55] the other side of it that, you know, you can say the same thing twice in two different [01:02:00] ways and have a totally different effect on someone? Do you accept [01:02:05] it?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, yeah I do, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think sometimes the sarcasm or something rub people up?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, [01:02:10] that’s why I don’t do that. Yeah. I mean when it comes to the sarcasm now I don’t, I don’t. I’ve [01:02:15] learned a lot. Um, but unfortunately, what’s done is done. And you’ve got to kind of. Then just [01:02:20] accept it, move on, change a bit. Um, but now I can understand that sometimes [01:02:25] some of the things might have. You know, impacted people, [01:02:30] but it’s only been for the greater good of the organisation [01:02:35] and the patients at the end of the day, as opposed to anything else but that. Um, so, [01:02:40] so so yeah. But no, I do accept it. Of course. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Why are you so happy to talk about [01:02:45] all this? Is it? Do you feel like there’s information about [01:02:50] you that people should know or like or. I mean, you’re right [01:02:55] in that. It sounds. Some of it sounds very petty. Yeah. And the fact that our, you know, our, our [01:03:00] governing bodies sort of talking about posters and so it’s [01:03:05] a bit mad. It’s a bit mad. Yeah. Is that why you’re happy to talk about it? I mean, like, most [01:03:10] people don’t want to talk about their that GDC situation.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Why? That’s the thing. Really? Once, [01:03:15] you know, um, be honest, be open and talk about it so other [01:03:20] people learn maybe from it. Um, and also it’s not it’s not embarrassing. [01:03:25] If you do something in life, then own it, stand up and own it. Um, and [01:03:30] you know, you’re always going to come across hurdles, regulatory problems, issues, whether it’s the NHS, [01:03:35] CQC, GDC, you shouldn’t be embarrassed by anything that you do. Um, [01:03:40] I’m not embarrassed about anything I do in life because this is part of the journey of life. You [01:03:45] know, sometimes there’s been embarrassing situations, but that probably we all embarrassed [01:03:50] about. But then you can still laugh about it. There’s still still some, uh, some some humour [01:03:55] in everything. If you find the humour in something, then it makes things better. Um, so [01:04:00] I’m. Yeah. I’m not. I’m quite flamboyant in that way. I’ll talk about anything [01:04:05] that involves myself. Um, of course, if something involves or there’s a connection [01:04:10] with someone else, then I have to. Not because that’s that’s their gig and I don’t want to breach their confidentiality [01:04:15] and things like that. But for my own stuff, I’m all happy to chat about [01:04:20] anything.

Payman Langroudi: On this pod. We like to talk about mistakes.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [01:04:25] firstly, what was the darkest day in this journey? [01:04:30] This ten year journey?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Wow. I mean, the darkest [01:04:35] day in this ten year journey was, was it was kind of beginning of June [01:04:40] 23rd.

Payman Langroudi: That clawback situation.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. That was the that [01:04:45] was the dark, you know. So I had a I had to [01:04:50] on the 26th of March 23. Um, obviously when I was, you [01:04:55] know, steroid up to the lines, you know, um, had had had more, [01:05:00] had had more steroids in me than a horse, to be honest. Um, you know, I had [01:05:05] a I had to have a cardioversion, you know, I had atrial fibrillation. So my heart just hit [01:05:10] 200 beats per minute and wouldn’t stop.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Wouldn’t stop for about 2 [01:05:15] or 3 days. Then I collapsed at work. Had to go to hospital and [01:05:20] they tried to reverse it by the normal routes, you know, um, giving you the drugs and [01:05:25] everything. Obviously, in order to try and almost, like, settle your heart. Nothing worked. And then [01:05:30] the. I remember the A&E doctor peering over me at the time, and he said, right, we’re going to have to, um, [01:05:35] we’re gonna have to sedate you. Stop your heart and [01:05:40] then use a defib to restart it.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my God.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And I remember looking up at him, um, [01:05:45] and I said, well, what about if you can’t restart my heart? And then I can’t remember anything after [01:05:50] that, because then they just gave me the drug and had to do it because I was getting really bad at that point in time. And then there [01:05:55] were some people, obviously, that came to the hospital that were called because I was at work. So the clinical director was there, [01:06:00] Emil, and he called um, my colleagues at the time obviously turned up [01:06:05] and ex-girlfriend and apparently I was. It didn’t reach my heart. [01:06:10] Did not restart for about half an hour. They just couldn’t restart it. Um, [01:06:15] so I came out of that, um, and [01:06:20] that was in March. And then two months later, then my ex-girlfriend [01:06:25] of two years walking out, just literally I went to work one day, came back and she just vanished and gone. [01:06:30] Tried to make contact with her and nothing. So she gave up. So [01:06:35] I felt quite on my own at that point in time, very much on my own. And then.

Payman Langroudi: The clawback [01:06:40] situation was ongoing, and.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Then the clawback then hit after that. Literally a week later, we had, you know, we [01:06:45] had to deal with that. And the bank and I had to raise an incredible amount of money in [01:06:50] a very short space of time, which I didn’t have.

Payman Langroudi: And we [01:06:55] got three, £4 million you needed by day after tomorrow.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No, I mean, [01:07:00] it was. Yeah, it’s pretty much. Yeah, it was pretty much that. It was pretty much an impossible task, [01:07:05] an impossible task. And I remember it. Got it, got it. Got so dark. And [01:07:10] I’ve never had this thought in my life at that point in time. I just thought, what’s the point of being here anymore, really? [01:07:15] Because I can’t fix this now. I can’t actually fix this problem. I cannot fix it. [01:07:20] And I was and I felt so alone. And even though I was able, [01:07:25] I could share elements to the senior leadership team. You know, there’s some things you [01:07:30] don’t want to you don’t want to tell him because you just might think, well, even they might think, oh, you know what’s going to happen.

Payman Langroudi: Want [01:07:35] to spook them?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashkan Pitchforth: So I was on my own I who what could I do? [01:07:40] I’d run out of all the options. And it’s at that point in time. Then I [01:07:45] almost reached out to my ex-wife, um, who’s [01:07:50] the co-founder and also co-owns the whole group as well. Um, [01:07:55] he doesn’t he doesn’t get involved with the commercial aspects of running the business, but has always been there as [01:08:00] an advisor and all this kind of stuff reached out to her. And at that point in time, I wasn’t seeing my kids as well. And [01:08:05] and she just changed it all. She just she helped. She was [01:08:10] there, started getting me clean from that point in time. You know, I think you know, what? You you know, you’ve [01:08:15] now got to sort yourself out basically. That was the kind of the, you know, when they talk about the [01:08:20] lowest point in your life, that was the low the lowest point in my life. And she fixed it all. She, she, [01:08:25] she just did everything and recharged me, almost like reignited the fire to say that. Actually, you know what? [01:08:30] You think you can’t raise this money. You can raise this money. You know, I’m not going to tell you to do it because I don’t know how to do it. Almost. [01:08:35] But, um, I can help to some degree. And I can do this, this, this, and and then I [01:08:40] just it’s almost like she just opened my eyes to be able to do that. So that was the lowest, [01:08:45] the lowest point of my whole life, let alone the career journey, the whole point of my life, because [01:08:50] I’ve never felt like I didn’t want to be on this earth at that time, but I did at that point.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you’ve [01:08:55] got to take your hat off to her.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: 101 one has to take [01:09:00] one’s hat off to her, insomuch as That’s you. That’s your ex-wife you’re talking about. That’s not your wife. Yeah. I mean, [01:09:05] often even your wife might not be able to rise to that occasion, but your ex-wife rising [01:09:10] to that occasion.

Ashkan Pitchforth: But she also does it with she. And that’s the [01:09:15] thing with this organisation is that. I sometimes. [01:09:20] Yeah, I take the, the brunt of the, the bad stuff, but also I take all the, all [01:09:25] the good stuff. So I’m the one up there winning all the awards and getting the pat on the back from [01:09:30] the banks. And you know, everyone that’s looking in and thinking, oh great, what you’ve done. But [01:09:35] she, she does everything without wanting that recognition. Yeah. I [01:09:40] think that’s incredible.

Payman Langroudi: But she still owns half of it. Does she.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. Yeah. She owns [01:09:45] owns half of it. And I mean, she, to be honest with you, with what she’s done, she deserves all of it. Honestly, [01:09:50] she does. You know, I just deserve to be employed as the CEO. And she deserves [01:09:55] to be the 100% shareholder and 100% of everything. You know, her involvement in the [01:10:00] crucial bits. And but that’s that’s why it’s so important to have a I think [01:10:05] someone that co-owns it or co shareholder, things like that, someone that looks at it from an outside point of view. [01:10:10]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you’re right that the question of should you even have a partner. Business partner. [01:10:15] Um I find it in, in the when things are bad, it’s [01:10:20] that loneliness you’re talking about, that loneliness is the issue. [01:10:25] Because, as you say, sometimes even your most senior staff can’t [01:10:30] help. Yeah, often.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No.

Payman Langroudi: That’s true. Whereas when things really. When the shit [01:10:35] really hits the fan. Yeah, I’m calling my my business partner and we’re like sharing [01:10:40] that. Yeah. That situation, even though that means that we have to split the profits half and half. And [01:10:45] we’re actually four people. So, you know, a quarter each, um, [01:10:50] it’s still worth it. It’s still worth it. Often, often, you know, in accelerator programs [01:10:55] they tell people to bring on a co co-founder. Yes. Um, because you need the [01:11:00] different skill sets, right?

Ashkan Pitchforth: You do? I mean, she’s earned that also, right? Because she did [01:11:05] work her socks off at the start when we were associates, invested, as we both did, obviously, because it [01:11:10] was joint income almost. And and we have we share kids together and she you know, she [01:11:15] looks after them. She also works clinically as well. You know, a couple of days a week. Um, and [01:11:20] um, you know, does audits and things that she needs to do. Um, so she does her part. She’s not, [01:11:25] you know, this silent, silent housewife or something like that stays at home like that. So I [01:11:30] still as my wife sometimes, but, um, um, but yes, she’s, she’s done her [01:11:35] part, but she’s, she’s, she’s, she’s, she’s been there the right time and she and and she [01:11:40] knows I don’t know, she can almost sense it if I phone her or I text [01:11:45] her, she can sense if there’s something that I need help with, which I think is, [01:11:50] is incredible. But then she’s learnt.

Payman Langroudi: She knows you.

Ashkan Pitchforth: She knows she knows more [01:11:55] than anyone. Yeah. 13 years of developing and knowing me and [01:12:00] being with me. This is a long time, you know.

Payman Langroudi: And do you see your kids now?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah [01:12:05] I do. Not as much, I’d hope, because I’m working. Working so hard, so much. But I do, [01:12:10] I do. And this great, great, great time to spend time with them and to see them grow and develop [01:12:15] and mature as adults. Well, not adults yet, but as they go in. [01:12:20]

Payman Langroudi: And what’s your advice to your kids regarding career? Would you tell them to [01:12:25] become dentists if they asked you?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Um, it’s I just always say do something that [01:12:30] you love to do, which is what was different to what I was told back [01:12:35] in the day, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, the reality of it is, you know, you might be lucky, you might have a kid who really [01:12:40] does love something. But the reality is, most kids don’t know what the hell you know, they have no idea.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No. At the [01:12:45] moment they don’t.

Payman Langroudi: So. So then they kind of are looking to you for guidance. [01:12:50] Not not necessarily come to you and say, guide me, but you’re saying to them, alright, it’s A-levels [01:12:55] now. Yes. Which A-levels do you want to do? And they’re like no. Yeah. And then it’s that goes to [01:13:00] which career do you want. Yeah. I don’t know. Yeah. So then you’re kind of forced to guide. [01:13:05] Yes. Yeah. So okay. Do what you love. But just [01:13:10] specifically dentistry. Because I get two types of people sitting in front of me here, literally [01:13:15] some who adore it and would love it for their kids, and then some who [01:13:20] specifically don’t want their kids to go into it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Then when kids go into.

Payman Langroudi: It, what do you think? I [01:13:25] mean, it’s giving you so much, right?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, it’s it’s it’s it’s.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got a love hate [01:13:30] relationship with it yourself, right? With all this GDC stuff going on.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I think people like, are you stressed with the GDC? [01:13:35] I’m like, no, not really. Why would I be stressed?

Payman Langroudi: It’s not stressing you.

Ashkan Pitchforth: It doesn’t stress me out. It’s it’s the [01:13:40] unknown. I don’t like the unknown, you know, because it’s a it’s a it’s a process I’m going through. I’ve never been [01:13:45] before. And and you know, if I come out the other end, you know, I don’t really want to go through it again. [01:13:50] But if I had to go through it again, I would know the process. I would be less stressed. I’m very stressed because I don’t know the process. [01:13:55] That’s the only thing I think that stresses people out in life is you don’t know. Actually, it’s like doing your first composite. You know, [01:14:00] you’ve never done it before, but doing your one millionth composite, there’s no stress because you’ve done it so many times. Stress [01:14:05] is stress is a relation to actually unpredictability. Exactly. Rather than actually being [01:14:10] a difficult task. Um, so so no, I’m not stressed whatsoever when it comes to [01:14:15] the GDC. Um, no, I yeah, I know it’s I know it’s a cop out on me saying just [01:14:20] love what you do, but.

Payman Langroudi: But dentistry yes or no? [01:14:25]

Ashkan Pitchforth: If they love it, then yes.

Payman Langroudi: How do they know whether they love it? They’ve got [01:14:30] no idea.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No they won’t. No no no they won’t.

Payman Langroudi: I mean look they won’t, they try. You know, there’s that classic question. [01:14:35] What would you be if you weren’t a dentist. Yeah. Someone asked me that. I might say, I don’t know, architect. [01:14:40] Yeah, yeah, but I don’t know at all what it’s like to be an architect. Yeah, I kind of like pretty buildings. [01:14:45] Yeah, but that’s not being an architect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:14:50] So there’s no way of knowing. So then they rely on you for advice. Yeah. [01:14:55] I mean, I mean, I’m interested in people who say, no, I definitely don’t want my kid to be a dentist. [01:15:00] Why not? Like, what’s the problem?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. I [01:15:05] mean, you know, I don’t have a problem with the career, you know? I know it’s I know [01:15:10] it can be tough. It can. It can be tough with the regulations that are there and the patients and the, um, [01:15:15] the demands of the job. But then equally, you [01:15:20] know, it’s a it’s a most of the time it’s 9 to 5. Yeah. You know, we’re sitting down, [01:15:25] we’re just using a, we’re just doing a bit of.

Payman Langroudi: And by the way, making the amount of money that dentists can [01:15:30] make is very hard to do in other things. Yes. So [01:15:35] it’s not like dentistry is tough, but it’s not like earning I don’t know. What did what [01:15:40] did what does the practice make? 200 grand or something? 200 grand. In other professions is [01:15:45] easy. I mean, there’s no there’s no way of easily earning 200 grand for for for [01:15:50] an average person. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and the nice thing with dentistry is almost. [01:15:55] There’s a few simple rules. Don’t piss off your patients. Don’t piss off your staff. Yeah. [01:16:00] Like, simple as that.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I’ve done that.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got 300 to worry about, though. Yeah. [01:16:05] That’s like it’s different. Most dentists one practice. Don’t piss off your patients. Don’t [01:16:10] hurt people. Be honest. Be nice. Yeah. And, uh, you know, they can make it, whereas, I don’t [01:16:15] know, let’s say your passion was marketing. Earning 200 grand in marketing. Hard, [01:16:20] man. You’ve got to be head of marketing for Procter and Gamble. Maybe. Yeah. Or some sort of performance [01:16:25] marketer on the internet selling some item that, you know, you’ve got. There’s a massive skill set there. Yeah. [01:16:30]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah, I would, I’d, I’d I reckon I’m trying to push my daughter. [01:16:35] I think it’s a very good job for a daughter.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: For, for a girl.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. I just don’t know if [01:16:40] I can even say that these days, you know, refer to people by their gender. I just, you know.

Payman Langroudi: More rules. [01:16:45]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, exactly. And I just, you know, I, I’ve, I, uh, yeah, I got [01:16:50] to be careful with how you word things, but. Yeah. Now, of course I agree. For a female, it’s [01:16:55] a, it’s a flexibility. It’s brilliant. Yeah. The flexibility for like three days part time around [01:17:00] kids around schools. Yeah. It’s great. You know.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk errors now. Clinical [01:17:05] errors. What comes to mind. What was your most difficult patient or your biggest [01:17:10] clinical error or something you learned clinically from as an error?

Ashkan Pitchforth: I think the [01:17:15] worst thing was the I think very shortly after coming [01:17:20] out of uni, um, giving an ID block on a patient, just [01:17:25] a guy who was 60, um, I think a bit of high blood pressure or something like that, [01:17:30] and then gave him an ID block and then he. And sometimes it happens, isn’t it? I mean, it doesn’t happen [01:17:35] now because I’m more experienced what I do, an aspirate and all that kind of stuff. And then he was like, oh, my heart feels a bit [01:17:40] racy. You know, you’re like, oh, it’s fine. It’s just because there’s a bit of adrenaline in the anaesthetic, it will calm down. [01:17:45] And then five minutes later. How are you feeling, sir? No, no, it’s still still racing. And then [01:17:50] that’s a bit strange and. Okay, have a seat in the waiting room. Let’s not do the filling yet. We’ll just see how things go. Checked [01:17:55] on in on him about 20 minutes later. How are you feeling? I know my heart feels bad. My heart feels bad. I’m just going to go home. I’m [01:18:00] just gonna go home. I don’t feel right, you know? Oh, okay. And then he [01:18:05] goes home and then you think, oh, it’s a bit strange because usually it dissolves quite quick. [01:18:10] Usually. Yeah. Clears up, you know, the racing feeling, you know, and then, but then not thinking too [01:18:15] much into it and then phoning him that afternoon because that happened in the morning. No answer. [01:18:20] Okay. And then came in to work the next day and I said, can you give him [01:18:25] a call just to see if he’s alright? Called him. No answer.

Payman Langroudi: Jesus.

Ashkan Pitchforth: The afternoon called him. No [01:18:30] answer. I’m thinking, okay, maybe he’s maybe he’s not there. Okay. So. Okay, let’s let’s do it. Maybe two days. Let’s not hound [01:18:35] the guy, you know, two days later, call him again. No answer. I’m thinking, well, I mean, unless [01:18:40] I physically go to his house, I don’t know what else I can do. Um. And [01:18:45] then just nothing happened. And I saw the guy six months later, [01:18:50] came in for a check-up and then sat down. I was like, oh, so [01:18:55] you got back your filling. You know, because as you can see on the treatment plan, it’s still it’s still there. I don’t need to do [01:19:00] this filling. And he was like, he was like, yeah, things went a bit wrong after the injection last time. I was like, what [01:19:05] do you mean went wrong? Well, um, yeah, I went home and I had a full on heart attack, and [01:19:10] I’d been in hospital for for 2 or 3 weeks. And like, you’re looking, thinking shit, [01:19:15] was that was that me? And then I was like, oh my God. I’m like, [01:19:20] I’m. First thing I just said was, I’m sorry. You know, you just admit it. I’m really sorry. It [01:19:25] was. Did the doctor say that was because the injection? They said, well, he’s like they said it could [01:19:30] have been. It could have been the injection. But I’m I’m here now and you know, you know, just [01:19:35] just.

Payman Langroudi: Calm about it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: You know. And he stayed my patient until I stopped working in that practice. I [01:19:40] retired clinically, you know. So he’s my patient for a good ten years after that. [01:19:45] So the trust was still there. And then I remember then obviously finding out my identity when I was 18, when he left [01:19:50] and said, you know, is that a possibility? I could have caused this guy to have a heart attack. And they’re like, well, you could have done if [01:19:55] you didn’t aspirate. You injected the whole volume into his, uh, in he could have, [01:20:00] you know, into his blood. He could have he could have triggered, um, and then you just think, wow. Yeah. [01:20:05] Okay. But now I’ve got to be. So I think for a good, like.

Payman Langroudi: Think back to all the ID blocks you’d given.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And [01:20:10] then for good six years after that, I think I just used scandalous, a plain anaesthetic [01:20:15] for an ID block. I didn’t even use anything with adrenaline, you know, I was I just was like, right, I’m not [01:20:20] doing anything. You know, I’d have to give two to make it work. Now, you know, I can give it as an [01:20:25] ID block and it’s fine because you learn. You learn when the vascular stuff is and [01:20:30] you become so experienced in doing it over time. But at the start you don’t. And obviously. And they don’t [01:20:35] teach you how to aspirate university. They tell you aspirate, you see blood. You think, well, where.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’ve never [01:20:40] seen it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Where do I see anything? You know? The patient’s tongue’s in the way. It’s dark, you know. They’re moving around. You [01:20:45] get an idea, like, oh, sometimes they’re moving, you know? How am I going to see anything? They don’t [01:20:50] teach you that. So you’ve got to learn that for experience. I think that was one of the real sticking points, because it [01:20:55] was a possibly a direct consequence of what I’d done, which was a mistake, [01:21:00] could have had a significant impact on someone’s life or it actually did. To be fair. [01:21:05] Um, but then again, you treat the patient with the dignity and respect that they deserve, and they still [01:21:10] keep going. He didn’t not come back to see me. You know, he kept on coming back and he trusted [01:21:15] me.

Payman Langroudi: What about what about one like that that did get pissed off. Like a management issue. Patient management issue. [01:21:20] Do you remember a case like that? Because that sounds like, in a way. I mean, it’s not a happy ending, but [01:21:25] kind of a happy ending. Anyone? Where where you you made an [01:21:30] error in terms of the way you managed the patient. And they lost [01:21:35] confidence, let’s say.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Mhm. Well [01:21:40] I know I’ve kind of.

Payman Langroudi: What about by the way within the group. How many [01:21:45] dentists. 200.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Wow. I mean we.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a continuing ongoing complaints [01:21:50] all.

Ashkan Pitchforth: The time. Yeah. I mean they all make mistakes and. Yeah. Jeez, Louise. I mean there’s.

Payman Langroudi: So do you have to get involved [01:21:55] in all of that?

Ashkan Pitchforth: No. Um, the clinical directors deal with the majority of those, but, yeah, the more serious ones. [01:22:00] And, yeah, I get involved in, like.

Payman Langroudi: Many, many, many things must have happened within the group. Right.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. Things [01:22:05] happened like a a practitioner clinician dropping a crown down a patient’s throat because they were trying [01:22:10] to put it back on and didn’t realise actually that it’s been, you know, it’s gone down, it’s gone [01:22:15] into the trachea, you know. Not sending them to hospital there and then sending them home. And then two [01:22:20] days later the patient’s in, in, in hospital having thoracic surgery to have it removed, you [01:22:25] know, so so obviously they don’t work for me anymore. Um, but then yeah, seeing off the back of that [01:22:30] the complaints and the how it was managed and dealing with that and then, um, so, [01:22:35] so yeah, we, I see wow I see some interesting things. Some very interesting. [01:22:40] But then some things that just go wrong. That’s not the patients. So not the clinicians fault. [01:22:45] Like like like a dentist removing a six. Extracting a six. It’s [01:22:50] nowhere near the near the ID canal. So it’s a routine [01:22:55] extraction. And then the patient has parasthesia after that for the lip and [01:23:00] then blaming the dentist for the for not assessing it correctly and thinking it’s nowhere near [01:23:05] that. I can see on your periapical I can see with the ID canal is so you know, there’s it’s [01:23:10] just one of those things.

Payman Langroudi: What about business decisions that you’ve made? [01:23:15] I’d like to hear both like one that stands out as like, I made a great decision to [01:23:20] do X and one that stands out as I shouldn’t have done that. Um. [01:23:25]

Ashkan Pitchforth: A great business.

Payman Langroudi: When you’ve bought this many practices, there must have been some interesting [01:23:30] stories or or opportunities that something you spotted that the next [01:23:35] man wouldn’t or.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. Um, that’s an interesting question. I think, um. [01:23:40] I think the, the worst [01:23:45] business decision was which which didn’t help this clawback situation. And [01:23:50] the deficit we’re in was when I spent £1 million in cash on our last practice [01:23:55] outright. Bought outright. Yep. Uh, on the promise [01:24:00] that the bank would reinvest, almost refund that, you know, [01:24:05] inject a further million in because it was coming quite close to the completion date was being delayed and delayed [01:24:10] and delayed. And then when I eventually went back to the bank and said, oh, you know, can you come [01:24:15] through on your word? They said, no, no, I’m not going to. And it was like.

Payman Langroudi: You were expecting a [01:24:20] million more.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I’ve just spent I’ve just spent the last million, actually, that I had in the bank. Uh, and I was, you [01:24:25] know, so so that was trusting the trusting obviously people.

Payman Langroudi: Like, with the relationship with the bank, [01:24:30] is it the same bank that you’ve had all along or have you used different? No. [01:24:35]

Ashkan Pitchforth: We switched. We have switched. So we have been to we have gone from like Wesleyan to [01:24:40] Metrobank to Santander. Um, at the moment with Santander, [01:24:45] we’re now we’re now on a on a refinance journey with, with another bank. Um, [01:24:50] so you do you do deal with many as you go along.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, in that situation, is [01:24:55] it like the trust between you and the other individual?

Ashkan Pitchforth: No, not necessarily, because the thing [01:25:00] is, is that when you you have a trust relationship with your business, relationship [01:25:05] manager at the bank. Yeah. But behind them sits a credit team and. [01:25:10]

Payman Langroudi: Control over that.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And they, they analyse risk in a whole different way and they [01:25:15] sometimes don’t look at certain things. So when we went [01:25:20] for our tough time with the bank, um, I said to the bank guys, I [01:25:25] can get this back. I can go from being underperforming at 65% year end to 110%. [01:25:30] I need you to trust me and the relationship manager saying, Will I trust you, ash? But [01:25:35] the team behind me don’t trust you because they see see it as a risk. You’ve underperformed. How are you [01:25:40] going to flip it around? Um, so so that’s that’s the problem. So so [01:25:45] then you’ve got a and because you can never talk to them, you can never talk to a credit team. They sit [01:25:50] in literally like almost like a dark room. Um, and, and you just hope and [01:25:55] they just look at KPIs. Yeah. That’s all they look at the KPIs, the figures, [01:26:00] the stats. That’s all they look at. They don’t look at hearsay or potential or visions or strategic [01:26:05] planning. They look at figures, facts, and that’s it. [01:26:10] Um, and they base their assessments based on that. So I think that was kind of one of the worst, worst [01:26:15] business decisions. I think the best business decision, I think the model that we’re running [01:26:20] at the moment. I think the epiphany moment, the epiphany time of, I.

Payman Langroudi: Mean, it’s [01:26:25] staggering difference in figures, right?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Figures are just staggering difference. [01:26:30] And now we have people asking, you know, I wrote a 30 page [01:26:35] dossier almost on how to do it. The secret sauce. And it’s [01:26:40] we have, you know, p firms out there that backing, you know, these corporate organisations [01:26:45] that have a 7% EBITDA, you know, group level. And they just just [01:26:50] how can we have a meeting please. Because, you know, I need to understand what my team that I’ve backed [01:26:55] is doing wrong, considering what you’ve you’re doing and your outcomes are the same, if not [01:27:00] better in terms of your patient, outcomes are the same, if not better. But your.

Payman Langroudi: Business.

Ashkan Pitchforth: But your business outcomes [01:27:05] are just far improved. So yeah, we have people knocking on the door now saying, you know, we want to know what the secret [01:27:10] sauce is.

Payman Langroudi: So then going forward, what’s going to be the situation. Are [01:27:15] you looking for an exit now. Are you looking for [01:27:20] PE.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No no.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No. Any of that. Any of those?

Payman Langroudi: Are you looking for what? What are [01:27:25] you looking for? Like, what would it take for you to leave this business?

Ashkan Pitchforth: My death.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [01:27:30]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: If I said billion dollars, you wouldn’t take it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No. What would I do with $1 [01:27:35] billion?

Payman Langroudi: Another business? Different business?

Ashkan Pitchforth: No, but then I wouldn’t be happy with it.

Payman Langroudi: Get into fashion or something. [01:27:40] I wouldn’t.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I wouldn’t be happy with the staff. You know, the thing is, the thing is, is that. [01:27:45]

Payman Langroudi: So then what is going to happen? What does the future look like? I mean, what would be your perfect outcome [01:27:50] in ten years time?

Ashkan Pitchforth: So what are we going for the moment? Its growth. Its [01:27:55] growth number. Number level growth training. Um, our new head office obviously has a training [01:28:00] facility, which should be built in about a month’s time and really, really improving the quality, continuing to improve the quality [01:28:05] of the clinicians that we have. Really reinvest heavily in them. Um, and, [01:28:10] um, so, I mean, ten years from now, potentially, we might start again another journey of acquisitions, [01:28:15] take it from 24 upwards. But I would never sell my soul at the moment to a PE firm. I wouldn’t [01:28:20] sell out at the moment either. Um, because we just.

Payman Langroudi: Depend on the figure.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Even [01:28:25] if the figure was incredible, I it just wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: You’re just loving it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: You just wouldn’t happen because I’d [01:28:30] be bored, you know? And and also the relationships I have with the staff [01:28:35] and the individual. And at the end of the day, you know, it’s [01:28:40] a the the. The [01:28:45] group is reflection of my almost like my lifelong work. It’s almost [01:28:50] like I see myself as an artist. I mean, I would love to have been an artist.

Payman Langroudi: Your magnum opus?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. So. So this [01:28:55] is. This is what I’ve created. And if I was to just give it away, or even for many reasons.

Payman Langroudi: You could [01:29:00] become a real artist.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I would, yeah, but I do, I do that. I do that at the moment. I [01:29:05] do that in in my body art, you know, in the way I, the way I dress. Um, and, [01:29:10] uh, but yeah. So, um, no, I don’t think I would, I don’t think I would, I [01:29:15] would, I would, I would cash in cash in the chips.

Payman Langroudi: Just not for sale.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No, [01:29:20] of course not. Yeah, yeah, it’s not for sale.

Payman Langroudi: And the PE private equity situation. [01:29:25] You don’t want someone else telling you how to run. The thing is that is that the the point? [01:29:30] Yeah. Because because you could write. You could say, hey, let’s go for 75 [01:29:35] practices like this, this new business model. Yeah. Go and grab some money from a company, and. [01:29:40]

Ashkan Pitchforth: I’ll run with it.

Payman Langroudi: And.

Ashkan Pitchforth: We’ll make them a lot of money. We’ll make them rich. But the thing is, is that you’re [01:29:45] then putting constraints onto something on someone that’s a visionary, like, yeah, you can’t, [01:29:50] you can’t, you can’t constrain creativity because in that that means [01:29:55] that you’re driven by numbers, you’re not driven by the flow and what’s happening and and what [01:30:00] you want to do. You’re driven by something completely different. And that’s what we don’t want to be driven by. Because [01:30:05] when it becomes a numbers game, then it’s just it’s just it’s just producing numbers for a balance sheet for a PNL [01:30:10] to say, look, look at what we’ve achieved. And then it gets flipped, goes from one firm to another and [01:30:15] another to another, and it just continues and things like that. And, and I see, I see that in the downfall [01:30:20] of a lot of corporate groups out there, you know, um, that have almost sold [01:30:25] their souls to, to, to to an outside firm. [01:30:30]

Payman Langroudi: And I can imagine what I can’t imagine you in a board meetings where [01:30:35] they’re telling you what to do.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I know the things I can get told what to do, because the thing is, I get told what [01:30:40] to do by the banks and the NHS anyway. But the thing with me is that if I’m going to turn up to a board meeting, [01:30:45] don’t expect me to wear a suit.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t think that’s any more.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Don’t expect me. Don’t expect [01:30:50] me to. I mean, at the end of the day, if it’s hot, yes, I might sit there topless, you know, because [01:30:55] I need to be comfortable.

Payman Langroudi: South by southwest. Last week here and, um, the there were all these [01:31:00] tech bros everywhere, and hardly anyone was dressed up.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I know, but.

Payman Langroudi: The thing is, things have changed.

Ashkan Pitchforth: In [01:31:05] our industry. It hasn’t.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the things have changed. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, those guys want numbers. [01:31:10]

Ashkan Pitchforth: The numbers. But look at the CEO for. Am I allowed to say the names? Yeah. Portman [01:31:15] did. He did he turn up looking like me? No, no. You know Roderick’s no. [01:31:20] You know, um, uh, Gene Genius, you know. I don’t think.

Payman Langroudi: Anyone cares, though. I don’t [01:31:25] think anyone cares. That’s my point.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. I mean, well, yeah, they they shouldn’t do it, but I think people don’t take you seriously [01:31:30] when they just. They see you see, you’re a bit different. I get that all the time. I get that all the time. Like. [01:31:35]

Payman Langroudi: Do you like that? Do you like.

Ashkan Pitchforth: People turn up to a meeting and I’m quiet and I think people look at me and think, [01:31:40] who the bloody hell? And then I start talking about the clauses in the NHS contract. And actually. [01:31:45] Is that right? Have you looked at like clause 75 and clause 42 and all this stuff. And they [01:31:50] think thinking this guy bloody.

Payman Langroudi: Does it somewhat drive you people underestimating you.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah [01:31:55] I think it, I think it does. I think it’s very it’s a yeah it does actually it makes it I.

Payman Langroudi: Feel like [01:32:00] you’re the kind of guy. If I said ash, you’ll never do X. You’ll just have to prove me wrong. [01:32:05] Like you never.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Ever.

Payman Langroudi: Berserk to prove me wrong.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, [01:32:10] exactly. I would. If anyone says you can never achieve something, that’s it.

Payman Langroudi: You’re [01:32:15] going.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Don’t ever say that to me. Because then it’ll be. I’ll make sure. Hook or crook. [01:32:20] I will make sure that I achieved that.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve come to the end of our time. It’s been it’s been an [01:32:25] enlightening conversation. I’ve enjoyed it. Um, we end with the same questions. [01:32:30] Well, actually, best best lecture you’ve ever been to. Can you think of that? [01:32:35] Dental lecture.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Dental. Yeah. I mean, it was it’s it’s [01:32:40] not a best one, but a series. Best one’s anatomy.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Back in uni, [01:32:45] fascinated by anatomy.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Ashkan Pitchforth: You know, again, it’s the muscles, the bodybuilding, [01:32:50] the the artistic, you know, going back to obviously like the Leonardo, Leonardo da Vinci [01:32:55] and Michelangelo days and the, the Caravaggio and the sculptures and learning about [01:33:00] how the deltoids look and the latissimus dorsi and all this kind of stuff and the obliques, [01:33:05] I don’t know, anatomy fascinated in and, you know, I loved those lectures. Love [01:33:10] those lectures, I loved them. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, final question [01:33:15] then. Fantasy dinner party. Three guests, dead [01:33:20] or alive? Who do you have?

Ashkan Pitchforth: I think it would be. One of them would be [01:33:25] Alexander McQueen.

Payman Langroudi: The designer.

Ashkan Pitchforth: The designer? The fashion designer I really like. I like [01:33:30] his.

Payman Langroudi: Cool dude.

Ashkan Pitchforth: His style, but also what he did. He was a pioneer, you know? He came from [01:33:35] again. He didn’t fit the mould. I relate to him quite a lot. He didn’t fit that mould. Um, [01:33:40] but then again, if you look at his journey, he did sell out and [01:33:45] he was doing something he didn’t want to do at the end. And maybe, I don’t know, maybe that led [01:33:50] to his his eventual death. You know, the suicide and things like that demise. So [01:33:55] yeah, it’d be good to chat to McQueen. I think the other person would be Mike Menzer. [01:34:00] I think Mike Menzer. Who’s that? He’s, um, he’s he’s one of the great [01:34:05] bodybuilding gurus back in the 1980s. So he was the one that that transformed [01:34:10] the idea of, you don’t have to go to the gym for three, four hours a day to look like Arnold [01:34:15] Schwarzenegger, which is obviously what he was even Arnold Schwarzenegger was doing at the time. He was like, you just need to go four times a [01:34:20] week for 30 minutes a day and you can still achieve the same physique. So he changed again.

Payman Langroudi: Pioneer. [01:34:25]

Ashkan Pitchforth: A pioneer of bodybuilding. Like difference. Again relating to that. [01:34:30] You know, the way we’ve done it in terms of like our business model and saying, okay, you don’t need to do this. You [01:34:35] know, let’s let’s flip it. Let’s change the way we’re looking at it. Um. And [01:34:40] yeah, I think the third [01:34:45] one is always yeah, yeah, it’s always been my ex-father-in-law, I think. Yeah, [01:34:50] I didn’t I didn’t have that final time with him, so it’d be good to. It [01:34:55] would be good to. Have done.

Payman Langroudi: That. [01:35:00]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Have that and just say sorry. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:35:05] been a massive pleasure, man. And thanks for doing it twice. Yeah. [01:35:10] And for being so open. And hopefully the GDC worries go away. I could see you running [01:35:15] a group of gyms, you know, like some sort of innovation [01:35:20] in that space.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, maybe let’s let’s do it together. Yeah. You can [01:35:25] whiten the teeth. You can lighten them and I’ll. And I’ll train them.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Well, thanks [01:35:30] so much for doing it.

[TRANSITION]: No thank you, thank you.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, [01:35:35] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [01:35:40] in dentistry. Your hosts Payman [01:35:45] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. [01:35:50] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from [01:35:55] me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has [01:36:00] had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

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