Month: November 2025

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] enlightened online training to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time. Whitening underwhelms. Try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental. Leaders. The podcast where you [00:00:30] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:40] Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: These kids are older.

Nikhil Sethi: 1918 oh man. Yeah. Rows 23 [00:00:45] 2023. Alicia’s 17. Uh, beautiful kids. I [00:00:50] mean, if I could have my kids anything like that. They’re really sweet kids. [00:00:55] But. Sandra. Mom, you know, Sanjay and his wife’s exactly the same. They’re just the eternal [00:01:00] party people high on life, just so much more chilled out than I am. [00:01:05] They’re there. They’re brilliant, they’re brilliant. They’re good kids. How about yours?

Payman Langroudi: 18 [00:01:10] and 15.

Nikhil Sethi: That’s a nice age. So A-levels last year or this year?

Payman Langroudi: No, no. Just got to [00:01:15] university.

Nikhil Sethi: Nice. What’s he doing?

Payman Langroudi: Aerospace engineering.

Nikhil Sethi: Blimey. Hey. Congrats. [00:01:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Difficult, though. Yeah. Because, you know, it’s a bit like, um. Mission accomplished [00:01:25] when a kid goes to university. Yeah. At the same time, there’s a finality to it. [00:01:30] Yeah, like. Like, I dunno about you. When I went to university, I never lived at home ever [00:01:35] again. That was it. I mean, like, you know, holidays when I’ve lived at home. Yeah.

Nikhil Sethi: So [00:01:40] that’s it?

Payman Langroudi: They’re out. That’s the fact. The idea that he’s never going to live with us again. Just. I can’t believe it. I cannot believe [00:01:45] that’s happened already.

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah, it goes quick. Well, we’re Indian, right? So I left home a [00:01:50] little longer. Did you? Yeah, I made the most of it. Yeah. I [00:01:55] can’t relate to that. I was trying to act cool there for a second. When I was at home, I was at home for many [00:02:00] years after.

Payman Langroudi: She wakes up.

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah. All [00:02:05] good.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to [00:02:10] welcome back Nick Sethi onto the podcast. Nick and his brother Sanjay [00:02:15] were on episode 65. Brothers in arms. If anyone wants to listen to that, it’s [00:02:20] probably a good one to listen to because Nick’s career has moved on quite a lot since then. It [00:02:25] was a good four years ago.

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah, it was Covid.

Payman Langroudi: Covid time. I remember it was on zoom. [00:02:30]

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah, with a glass of wine, as you mentioned.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right. So everyone was drinking back then?

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah. I might have moved [00:02:35] on in career, but that hasn’t changed. Still, like, still like a glass of wine.

Payman Langroudi: So nice to have you in person. [00:02:40] And, you know, today it would be nice to go through. You know, I think of you as someone [00:02:45] whose career has sort of really accelerated compared to most. And [00:02:50] call that, you know, your brother’s influence, uh, your own, you know, whatever, [00:02:55] Whatever you’ve managed to do. I know you’ve had loads of influences in both. You know, manufacturers [00:03:00] have helped out a lot. And I just really want to learn about, you know, what did it [00:03:05] take to become you at this age? What what have you taking [00:03:10] forward from this point? And what message have you got to younger [00:03:15] dentists? You know, that’s maybe the best way for us to take it. How do you [00:03:20] feel?

Nikhil Sethi: Beautiful. Sounds great. And thanks for having me back. You know, it’s of.

Payman Langroudi: Course, anytime.

Nikhil Sethi: I was reviewing [00:03:25] kind of what we discussed last time, thinking, God, I knew nothing then. And I’m sure when I [00:03:30] listened to this in 4 or 5 years time, I’d probably think exactly the same. That’s the beauty of where we’re at it never standing [00:03:35] still. Oh, man. Yeah. I’ve been.

Payman Langroudi: Well, let’s start with Bard. You’re currently the president.

Nikhil Sethi: I [00:03:40] am current president of the British Academy of Aesthetic Dentistry. I took over from great friend [00:03:45] of mine, Nick Sisodia, in January. I mean, Bard has been an incredible influence [00:03:50] in my career. I remember going to my first ever bar conference in 2011. [00:03:55] I didn’t want to go. I couldn’t be. I just qualified. I think I was one year post PhD. [00:04:00] I just wanted to party, go out and have fun. And I said, look, you’ve got to come to this conference. And [00:04:05] I went there and again, I was. I always enjoyed [00:04:10] studying, but I didn’t have that internal combustion engine for dentistry yet. I [00:04:15] knew I’d be okay at it, and I knew I’d always be okay because I had planned, but I didn’t have that burning desire [00:04:20] for it. And my first two lectures I saw, you know, them both talking [00:04:25] about how we can do beautiful dentistry with direct composites. And then it was [00:04:30] a total contrast. Great line up by the scientific chairman at the time, Kenny Malamet, talking [00:04:35] about lithium disilicate, what we now colloquially call Emax. Um, [00:04:40] and Liz C and similar products. And I’d never seen it at uni. It was just either white fillings [00:04:45] or crowns. And suddenly I’m looking at this stunning, natural looking composite hand [00:04:50] layered by the master, or an incredible ceramic material that can last 15, 20 years. [00:04:55] And I stood up and I asked him a question. I said, look, both of your lectures have just blown me away. [00:05:00] As a young dentist, all I have to ask is I’m going to go into practice on Monday.

Nikhil Sethi: Which [00:05:05] direction do I go? Do I go with what you’re doing? Do I go with what you’re [00:05:10] doing? I didn’t mean to, but I kicked off a massive debate. Like they were going red in [00:05:15] the face and it all kicked off. Uh, but actually, it’s a really good point. Uh, we were [00:05:20] never really taught enough about the grey area in between composite and [00:05:25] crowns. Hopefully that’s changed now. And so, treatment planning wise, it was a logistical nightmare. [00:05:30] And I ended up doing all these monster mod mod composites [00:05:35] that would take me half an hour longer than I’d booked. My hourly rate would just tank [00:05:40] patients getting tired, nurses rolling their eyes because I’m late for lunch again and [00:05:45] I’d look at it at the end. I’ve taken rubber dam off the occlusions. Hi, I’ve hacked it all down and I think [00:05:50] really have. I spent an hour and a half doing this. It looks crap. Open contacts, food trap. Three [00:05:55] weeks later I’m cutting it for a crown. And so it really opened my eyes to [00:06:00] just see what was available at the cutting edge, at the forefront of [00:06:05] dental technology. It’s not necessarily I could go back on Monday and do everything I’m seeing [00:06:10] at Bard, but what it did tell me was to ask questions of what is possible. And then [00:06:15] from that meeting, people at the bar and the conference whose course is to go on, to then help me [00:06:20] slowly navigate my way closer to what these guys were showing.

Payman Langroudi: I think one [00:06:25] thing I love about Bard is the quality of the education. It’s not [00:06:30] it’s not dumbed down education at all. It’s all it’s all at the highest level. And [00:06:35] I love the fact it’s one stage, one brilliant [00:06:40] screen, you know, good AV in one room. Everyone [00:06:45] there together and even the debate that you’re talking about, it’s actually a feature of Bart is [00:06:50] legendary. It’s a feature of Bart that people argue about things.

Nikhil Sethi: It’s, [00:06:55] uh, it’s something I learned from Sanjay, who’s obviously previous president of Bard, my older brother. [00:07:00] For those of you that don’t know. And, Sanjay, again, I’ve been so lucky. We’ll talk about that later in my career [00:07:05] to learn from amazing people. But one of the things I think we’ve done differently at Bard [00:07:10] is whenever we invite a speaker, it’s a privilege to have them, but they’re there to [00:07:15] serve a purpose for us. We’re not there to just let them showcase what [00:07:20] they do. And what I mean is, you’ve been so many conferences where a lecturer will just get up and show 150 [00:07:25] cases before, after, before, after, before, after. And it’s beautiful work. But have you really taken anything [00:07:30] away at the end of that hour, all you’ve done is say, yeah, that guy or that girl, they’re incredible. [00:07:35] But actually what we say is, I’d rather you show me five cases in that hour, but [00:07:40] I want you to really break it down. And that’s been our whole ethos for the last ten years. If you’re going [00:07:45] to come on to Bard, you need to do less, but show more detail and [00:07:50] also long term follow ups, reviews and critically show at least one case [00:07:55] where something went wonky and how you retrieved it. Because life doesn’t give you a perfect [00:08:00] case every time. Shit happens. How are you going to deal with it? And I [00:08:05] certainly since I’ve been scientific chairman, I was scientific chairman for four years.

Nikhil Sethi: And actually I [00:08:10] was saying this as I took over in January. It was a bittersweet moment becoming president, because [00:08:15] I’ve been so lucky to work under incredible people before me. Sanjay, Corey [00:08:20] Ferran, then Robert was president, the demoness was president and [00:08:25] then Nick Sisodia. I’ve had just the most incredible people to work under. And then to become scientific chairman [00:08:30] was a dream. I got to curate the whole program, and what we did was we had zoom calls with every [00:08:35] single speaker so that we could really iron them out and say, small scope, [00:08:40] larger detail, and let’s really make this impactful. I want take home messages for Monday morning. [00:08:45] And as you become president, you realise that I’ve only got one more year left, and then I’ve [00:08:50] got one year as advisory and I’m kicked off. So all the people that I’ve admired have slowly disappeared. [00:08:55] And now I’m kind of the end of the chain, and I’ve got this next generation behind me that are going [00:09:00] to take over. So whilst it’s very proud for me to become president, I kind of miss being [00:09:05] the younger guy. I’m only 39, but I’ve been around the block a little while now, so yeah, [00:09:10] it’s an interesting moment.

Payman Langroudi: Although, look, Bud is very different to, for instance, [00:09:15] Bacd, insomuch as it’s it’s kind of smaller kind of. [00:09:20] I’d have to characterise it as sort of more exclusive in a way. Um, but [00:09:25] that also is its biggest weakness in that, you know, I meet dentists [00:09:30] left, right and centre who’ve never heard of Bud. And often my advice is to them, go to bars. [00:09:35] You know, that’s that’s the first thing I say to a lot of young dentists go to bars. Yeah. [00:09:40] And so how do you square the circle of, you know, keeping it at a [00:09:45] high enough level of education that it stays as like the UK’s premier event [00:09:50] that goes on every year and at the same time make it accessible for younger [00:09:55] people and have people want to come to it and enjoy themselves and so forth. That must [00:10:00] be something that sort of plays on your mind the whole time.

Nikhil Sethi: Kind of. I mean, firstly, whenever we’re [00:10:05] delivering education or lecturing, I always say especially to young dentists, no [00:10:10] matter what academy it is, just be part of an academy. Don’t just [00:10:15] get stuck in your end surgery and create bad habits, feel lonely and not have a shoulder to lean on. Whether [00:10:20] it be dentinal tubules, bhakdi bard, you can’t go wrong. Be [00:10:25] part of a collective where people are trying to show you a better way. How to become better, but also create a support [00:10:30] network you’re used to from four years old being in a classroom, and then suddenly, [00:10:35] at the age of 21, after PhD, you’re dropped into the abyss. And unless you actively go [00:10:40] back into further education, or unless you become part of some form of unbiased [00:10:45] academy, it’s quite easy to get lonely, man. And I see a lot of my friends that have fallen [00:10:50] out of love with dentistry, and I’ve gone the other way. I love it more than ever now. I might be practising [00:10:55] less than I was previously, but I love the industry more than ever. So firstly, going [00:11:00] back to what you said, I love the Bacd. I think they’ve done incredible. I mean, I’m absolutely in admiration [00:11:05] of that machine. It’s become, you know, I think Bart have always kept that premier [00:11:10] tag, as you say. But I think we could have done a better job over the years of getting the word out there [00:11:15] and keeping that consistent numbers back is incredible. I was honoured to lecture [00:11:20] with Sanjay and Riaz at the main stage for the Bacd conference in Edinburgh four years ago. Man, [00:11:25] they rocked the conference. It was great what they put together and a lot of the guys [00:11:30] that have girls that have been part of Bacd, they end up do coming to Bard after a [00:11:35] few years and they love it as well.

Nikhil Sethi: So I think you can’t go wrong. But. But for me, we [00:11:40] don’t limit it. But our focus is to keep it at around about 100 people. [00:11:45] Just so we’ve got that real face time with the speakers. [00:11:50] I want to be able to chat to dad at the bar. We had Mirella Ferrari in January [00:11:55] who just blew me away and she was incredible. I got to have coffee with her. It’s a small enough conference that you [00:12:00] really do get to chat with my idols as such, but also you’re talking to [00:12:05] people that have been around the block for years. Teju mizrahi. Govinda. Berth. Depeche, Palmer. [00:12:10] Yourself. There’s just a whole birth of experience, and there’s not much [00:12:15] in terms of egos. I think you don’t know how you feel, but people are generally willing to just share their [00:12:20] knowledge there. Yeah. Uh, and that’s what I want to get across. And like I said, my first Bard [00:12:25] conference that I mentioned, I couldn’t apply hardly any of the stuff I was [00:12:30] seeing, but it showed me a way. And from that I went and did Basil Mizrahi’s course, because I met him, one of the best courses [00:12:35] I ever did. I went and did Mancow’s course, I saw Mario Fradiani talking about full [00:12:40] mouth ceramic rehabs that I’d never seen anything like that. I was always thinking full mouth ceramics meant [00:12:45] heavy preps. He was showing me .4. five millimetres lithium disilicate. So [00:12:50] I went to Italy in Pesaro and did his year course. And so it’s not that [00:12:55] I could assimilate all of it, but I was able to then pick and choose.

Payman Langroudi: Open new avenues for. [00:13:00]

Nikhil Sethi: 100%, 100%. And that’s why I’ve always loved bad.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I remember [00:13:05] the first time I heard the word zirconia was at a bar, like, [00:13:10] whatever it was. Yeah, never heard the word, you know. And then some guy was putting up these zirconia [00:13:15] crowns. It’s like that.

Nikhil Sethi: But in terms of branding, [00:13:20] how we can, you know, keep Bard relevant. You know, I’m indebted to you. Actually, we had a conversation. [00:13:25] I think it was at the Dentinal Tubules conference over a beer at the bar. And you said, we’re [00:13:30] just not doing much to engage the next generation or the young dentists. Inches, and it was you that put the idea [00:13:35] in my head to just start doing a Young Bard initiative, which a fantastic colleague [00:13:40] of mine, Iman Khalid, who’s also part of back. Everyone knows Iman. She’s fantastic. Yeah, her. Elaine and [00:13:45] Roy are now doing regular webinars, utilising all of us to just do a webinar every [00:13:50] couple of months talking about failures. Where did we go wrong with composites? With isolation [00:13:55] really not just showing what we’re doing now, but where did we go wrong? What [00:14:00] cock ups did we make? Because that’s what young dentists need to see that it’s okay to mess up, not [00:14:05] just what you see on the University of Facebook and Instagram. Behind every case, there’s ten [00:14:10] cases that didn’t go so well that they didn’t post. Yeah. And it’s talking about that truth. So [00:14:15] thanks to you, we’ve started doing more regular webinars for younger generation. Hopefully that [00:14:20] will bring more newly qualified dentists to Bard and hopefully then secure it [00:14:25] in future proof it. And this is the other problem. Payman there’s so many biased academies like I’ve [00:14:30] got my own with elevate eight. It’s difficult now to maintain an unbiased academy [00:14:35] when you’re giving up your time for a volunteer role as such. How long will these academies [00:14:40] go on if the next generation isn’t really embedded and feels that same way that [00:14:45] I did about Bard? Yeah, it’s easier for me to spend my time on elevate because it [00:14:50] brings money in. I believe in it. I’m passionate about it. But the next generation [00:14:55] is part of my role as president in these two years to try and foster a new generation of people, to [00:15:00] realise that there’s not many avenues for unbiased education, and we have to preserve that again, [00:15:05] whether it’s Bard, Bacd, tubules, whatever it is, we have to have avenues of unbiased learning. [00:15:10]

Payman Langroudi: Unbiased as in not.

Nikhil Sethi: Not, you know, as in not. [00:15:15]

Payman Langroudi: Company sponsored.

Nikhil Sethi: Company sponsored, not just learning. Like if you come and learn from me [00:15:20] on elevate, I’m obviously going to teach the way in which I work. I’m not saying that I’m better [00:15:25] than anyone, but it’s the way that I’ve learned based on how I’ve interpreted the evidence. You go on. Course. [00:15:30] It works phenomenal. But his tweaks, his techniques might be just slightly differently. [00:15:35] There’s no wrong or right answer, but at least with an academy like Bard Bacd [00:15:40] similar. You’re seeing everyone’s different techniques. You’re seeing the different companies they work with, and then you [00:15:45] get to it’s almost like speed dating. You get to see from the lecturers I watched today, who did [00:15:50] I resonate with. And then let me see if I can follow that avenue more. Because you might not resonate with [00:15:55] my style. You might resonate with morelli’s with someone else’s. Anyone else? Amazing that we showcase [00:16:00] at Bard?

Payman Langroudi: Do you think since Covid, since [00:16:05] distance learning that events themselves [00:16:10] have become less relevant? Now I get it, I get it, dude. [00:16:15] Don’t get me wrong, I’m a massive proponent of how you learn at the bar. Yeah, [00:16:20] every every event we do, we have some sort of social element to it as well for that very reason. [00:16:25] Yeah. Apart from it’s fun. Yeah. But you know, learning, learning other than from [00:16:30] a stage. And what I’m thinking of right now is, you know, he’s doing this global collective thing. [00:16:35] Yeah. And he’s kind of going in a totally different tangent of, of, you [00:16:40] know, performance art or whatever it is. Now, whether or not you believe [00:16:45] that’s the right move. It’s the right move for me to think outside of the box in, [00:16:50] in in events. Yeah. Because we’re seeing events really in trouble [00:16:55] in general. Yeah. Whether we’re talking Dental showcase, uh, or the [00:17:00] dentistry show, proper difficulty getting people to leave their [00:17:05] homes and come to something. And so when they do do that, there [00:17:10] needs to be like a tangible benefit other than looking at a screen, because [00:17:15] I could look at a screen at home. Yeah. Yeah. What thoughts have you had about that?

Nikhil Sethi: Oh, man, [00:17:20] it’s so important.

Payman Langroudi: And I know you’ve got a great social, you know, you’ve you’ve got the [00:17:25] two parties that you do. And they’re legendary. They’re famous?

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah, [00:17:30] maybe a bit too famous. Uh, I tell you, it’s more important than ever. [00:17:35] I love learning at my convenience, so I love blended learning. I love [00:17:40] being able to watch online education. I love listening to your podcasts. I love being able to learn. I’ve got two young [00:17:45] kids, a three year old, and we had another baby three weeks ago, so I can’t go out as often as I used to. [00:17:50] But there’s key events in my diary every year that I really look [00:17:55] forward to. I see it as my reset, as my kick up the butt say right in January, end of [00:18:00] Jan. If I’ve picked up any bad habits through the year, if I’ve been a bit lazy with picking up my camera, if [00:18:05] I haven’t documented as well as I have done previously, if I haven’t given that 110% [00:18:10] towards the end of the year if I’m tired, this just kicks me right back up the arse to say, right, I’ve got to get better. [00:18:15] But it’s not just the education. As you say, the socials are fun. It [00:18:20] that camaraderie you get. But for me it’s always been about that shoulder [00:18:25] to lean on, and I’m socialising with people that are sharing their mistakes, [00:18:30] sharing their honest failures with me, and I can talk openly in [00:18:35] a safe environment that perhaps I can’t do by just watching a video or submitting a question. It’s being able [00:18:40] to pick up the phone to you, because I’ve become friends with you from events like Bard that if I’m ever [00:18:45] in trouble and I need a bit of career advice, or I’m in a bad, I know you’ll pick up the phone for me. [00:18:50] If I just watched your course online.

Payman Langroudi: There’d be no relationship.

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah, you [00:18:55] probably still would, because you’re a great guy. But would we have that same connection? Would you still be able to open certain doors for [00:19:00] me if we didn’t have that friendship? And likewise, we’d always do the same for you. [00:19:05] And so I think it’s that you can’t put a price on that relationship [00:19:10] you make, not just dentists. And I’ve said it before in the last podcast, the trade. Oh [00:19:15] my God. I mean, the friends I’ve made through the trade has helped me [00:19:20] so much in terms of my product knowledge, My ability to communicate. Patience. I’ve learned [00:19:25] way more about converting my treatment plans, and also even when we’re talking to people [00:19:30] about getting them on the elevate course, part of it is a converting process. [00:19:35] What is my USP compared to other amazing groups out there like smile, Monique, Chris or [00:19:40] Incredible Programs? Why choose elevate? The answer is you can’t really go wrong, but [00:19:45] who resonates? It comes back to that speed dating concept. Who do I resonate with? And I’ve [00:19:50] learned more about getting my point across succinctly and figuring out what my USPS are by hanging [00:19:55] around with people in the sales process, because that is your job, day in and day out. So again, [00:20:00] I can’t learn that by watching a lecture by Nick Sethi on bonding online, but [00:20:05] I might learn that from hanging around with Payman at a bar, talking about, or even just listening to you, how you talk [00:20:10] to people at the trade shows. I think that’s the bit that we need. And in a time more so [00:20:15] than ever, unless you’re just born as a natural communicator, people are [00:20:20] finding it harder and harder just to have new conversations with new people and that skill [00:20:25] set that cannot be lost. That’s the key to success.

Payman Langroudi: Not [00:20:30] to mention, you know, you’re looking for a job.

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah. [00:20:35]

Payman Langroudi: You can talk to someone. Do you know anyone? I mean, super important, right? Super important. [00:20:40] But just just to understand. Yeah, that, you know, I talked to someone who’s, uh, you [00:20:45] know, I think he was 27, and he’d been given that classic advice. [00:20:50] Go bash the Nash for a few years, then decide. And he was saying, [00:20:55] look, I’m getting good at being an NHS dentist. How am I ever going to get into private? [00:21:00] Yeah, that same guy. If I’m not even saying he comes to Bard and [00:21:05] I introduce him to T2 and T2 gives him a job. That’s not that’s not what I mean.

Nikhil Sethi: It’s fantastic.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not saying that. [00:21:10] I’m saying he sees someone else who looks kind of like him, who’s in private dentistry, [00:21:15] talks to him and realises it’s possible, you know, that that sort of inspiration. I mean, [00:21:20] you forget that. I mean, you don’t forget, but the the benefit you’ve had of [00:21:25] seeing your brother and all of his peers and seeing what’s possible compared [00:21:30] to someone who doesn’t have that to, to look at, you know, and so in [00:21:35] these events, you know, that’s, that’s where you can get that, you can get inspired by others who’ve [00:21:40] done it before you.

Nikhil Sethi: I mean, I had a massive head start, there’s no [00:21:45] doubt about that. Sound was incredible. It still is to this day. And exactly [00:21:50] what you said from helping me choose my education, career opportunities, even advice. I remember [00:21:55] a good friend of ours, Shane Gordon, uh, previous President Abad. I was about 3 or 4 [00:22:00] years in, and I was at that point where I was starting to do some really nice private work. I was still doing [00:22:05] a lot of NHS, and I just didn’t feel was I ready to make the jump, [00:22:10] as they call it. And I was chewing Shane’s ear off at the bar. Must be for a good hour. [00:22:15] And bless him, he just listened. Listen, listen, listen. And he’s a South African guy. And at the end, he just [00:22:20] put his pint down and said, Nick, take the plunge. Puts his beer down and walks off. [00:22:25] And that was it. The next day I emailed him my resignation. I just decided to just take the plunge [00:22:30] and go for it and never looked back since sometimes you just need someone to just give you that push as well. Uh, [00:22:35] yeah. I mean, the friendship element, the career opportunities and the the learning element [00:22:40] and the fun man. The memories we’ve had. Yeah, we’re only okay. [00:22:45] It’s not a short like a footballer’s career, but it goes quick. I’m already halfway through my career, and [00:22:50] it’s crazy.

Payman Langroudi: Crazy. I still see you as a newcomer. I still feel like it.

Nikhil Sethi: That’s the crazy thing. I feel like it. And [00:22:55] then you’ve got these young people coming on, like elevate courses, and they’re always looking at me like, I’m like, uncle G, you know what I mean? I’m [00:23:00] like, what the fuck did that happen? Um, I still feel young, but yeah, we got [00:23:05] to enjoy it, man. You gotta enjoy it. The minute it’s not fun, you got to change something. [00:23:10]

Payman Langroudi: So for someone like you who’s so into Dentistry. What [00:23:15] would you say? Is that like a key to staying happy as [00:23:20] a dentist?

Nikhil Sethi: I think you’ve got [00:23:25] to be honest. Meaning document and being able to show people. [00:23:30] I mean, we hide away behind our failures in dentistry. I gained so much [00:23:35] more from showing my crap cases and getting people like Sanj Elaine to say, yeah, [00:23:40] Nick, that’s not your best. But here’s why. Yeah. That’s helped me a lot more [00:23:45] than just deleting those photos and saying, move on to the next one. Good comes along. Yeah, [00:23:50] surrounding myself with good people. Payman you know, something that I learned early [00:23:55] on to stay away from negativity. And the key for me being happy is [00:24:00] I surround myself with people that I’m there for them. They’re there for me. [00:24:05] If they don’t appreciate me when I’m trying to give value to them, they’re not. [00:24:10] They don’t belong in my circle. And again, coming back to who’s inspired me to help [00:24:15] me really hone that in. I went on Samir Patel’s leadership program a couple of years ago. Sam’s a great guy. [00:24:20] And again, just reinforcing my happiness boosters making time. So not just [00:24:25] surround yourself with good people, but bringing back control on my time. So I cut down [00:24:30] my clinical slightly and every week just giving myself two hours for whatever the hell I want. Play [00:24:35] golf. Go for a massage.

Nikhil Sethi: Hobbies. What makes me happy? Okay, I love [00:24:40] dentistry, but it’s not my hobby. I do it because I enjoy it. I’m fairly good at it and [00:24:45] it pays the bills and I enjoy the industry. But I’ve got to do other things that make [00:24:50] me happy, be it messing around with my DJ app, be it playing guitar, be it playing golf. If I don’t have time [00:24:55] for myself, I can’t be the best clinician. I can’t be the best leader, can’t be the best dad, [00:25:00] the best husband. And by the way, dad and husband are the most important jobs I have far beyond anything [00:25:05] else that I do. I look at my kids now and think I don’t want them to waste a day. [00:25:10] I want each day to them to squeeze the most out of it. And the biggest inspiration [00:25:15] I’ve had in the last three years is my son. You see, there’s not a dull moment. And [00:25:20] that for me, you know, if I don’t make time for myself, I [00:25:25] can’t be the best version for him. But he’s inspired me more than anyone. Just that lust [00:25:30] for life. And I feed off that energy to then bring it to everyone around me as well. It’s amazing [00:25:35] what kids do to refocus and.

Payman Langroudi: Teach you as much as they learn from you.

Nikhil Sethi: We think that we’re [00:25:40] there for them. Yeah, it’s the other way around. Yeah. I mean, I love that energy. [00:25:45] It boosts me up. It’s, uh. It’s what drives me.

Payman Langroudi: So a lot’s changed [00:25:50] since the last pod. Um, you you weren’t president of Bard. You didn’t have [00:25:55] elevate. I remember you talking about it to me. Maybe. I don’t know if you did it [00:26:00] on on air or not, but talking about. Oh, we’re thinking of doing a course, something like that. [00:26:05] Um, and now elevate has become this giant thing.

Nikhil Sethi: It’s, [00:26:10] uh, it started off as a little passion project, and [00:26:15] in a weird way, I’ve totally found my North Star, and I’m so grateful. I wouldn’t [00:26:20] say it’s a giant machine. If you said it’s definitely not something that I could, uh, retire [00:26:25] off. Uh, but I believe in it more than I believe in anything that I’ve done in dentistry. [00:26:30] It’s it’s amazing. It literally started during lockdown with me. Really, uh, [00:26:35] just seeing how we could take topics such as occlusion, adhesion, [00:26:40] light curing, boring topics. How can we make it fun, a bit sexy, and [00:26:45] do it all within 20 30 minutes? We started doing these webinars that were [00:26:50] getting 4050 people on, and by the end of summer we were [00:26:55] getting like almost a thousand people joining all across Europe. It just spitballed. And then we started interviewing like Markus [00:27:00] Blatz, you know, um, some incredible people all over Europe. Stefan [00:27:05] Browitt, It, uh, Arturo and baloney. We just used all of our amazing [00:27:10] friends that we made through Bard and just say, right, let’s just jump on and just give me some [00:27:15] hard hitting, clinical take home facts for the next ten, 15, 20 minutes from that, [00:27:20] we realised that actually when we were teaching before that pay like [00:27:25] we’ve all done, I was teaching anterior composite courses, for example, and I’m not the best anterior [00:27:30] composite courses, but I spent a lot of my time talking about the last 5%. So [00:27:35] how can I get incisal Edge translucency? How can we get that perfect secondary anatomy? All [00:27:40] amazing things.

Nikhil Sethi: And these are things that I’m still trying to perfect, which is why I love going to watch Dipesh, for example, one of [00:27:45] the best in the business. And you’d get 1 or 2 people that are asking questions on the day and [00:27:50] you’re thinking, I’m nailing this, this is great. But there are all of those types of questions. [00:27:55] When we started doing these webinars, the anonymous questions started coming in. [00:28:00] Why am I composites coming off? I’m getting staining. My rubber dam clamps [00:28:05] are pinging off and hitting the ceiling. My patients getting post-op sensitivity. I’m getting white lines and [00:28:10] I’ve realised, whoa, hang about. We’ve made a massive mistake here, and we’ve focussed on the last 5% [00:28:15] where we’ve got a whole generation not just of young, but even experienced dentists that [00:28:20] are struggling with the foundations. Yeah. And so we ripped up the rule book. We [00:28:25] said no matter who comes on our diploma, whether you’re three months qualified or 20 [00:28:30] years qualified, we’re going to treat you all the same. We’re going to break you down and build you back up again. So [00:28:35] we’re going to go through communication. How do you welcome your patient? What’s the first thing you say to them? Again lots. [00:28:40] I’ve learned from people like Samir Elaine, some people that have taught me a lot about how I present [00:28:45] myself to my patients.

Payman Langroudi: Give me a pearl up.

Nikhil Sethi: Open body language. Not [00:28:50] sitting there on my on my chair. Cross-armed I’m stood up, open body language, ready to receive [00:28:55] a patient, happy to shake hands as long as they’re happy to respectfully arms open if they’re not [00:29:00] happy to. Something Elaine taught me three nonclinical questions. [00:29:05] How was your journey in today? Anything exciting going on? I never say, how’s [00:29:10] your day? Because everyone always says busy. I don’t want to say busy. Again, something I’ve learned [00:29:15] over the years from many people around me. So I say, when’s the next holiday? What’s going on? Exciting. Tell me. Let’s [00:29:20] hear about life. If it’s someone I know, I always make notes. What football team they support. Where [00:29:25] are the kids? What the kids names? How old are they? I say, oh, how’s John’s football match? You said he was going to be captain [00:29:30] of his team. It’s not contrived. I’ve taken a second like you did today. You already [00:29:35] primed yourself. You’re just greasing the wheels to be able to have a really good conversation. That shows [00:29:40] I’ve taken a second to make myself different. Why should [00:29:45] a patient choose me over someone down the road who might be doing the same work? [00:29:50] I mean, we’re in London, for God’s sake. You’ve got a fantastic dentist. Throw a penny, you’ll find another amazing dentist. [00:29:55] They’re buying into me. Not the composite I’m using. [00:30:00] Not the technique I’m doing. I pride myself on the work that I do.

Nikhil Sethi: Our whole tagline at Square [00:30:05] Mile is excellence is our standard, but really they’re buying into us. Same with elevate. Why choose [00:30:10] us as a course? They’re buying into us. The comfort, the security blanket we give around you. No such thing [00:30:15] as a silly question. So coming right back to what we were saying, we ripped up the rule book, started with [00:30:20] communication, treatment planning, occlusion photography, then building them up with their direct [00:30:25] dentistry. When to do direct dentistry. It’s another thing we’re seeing composite composite, composite [00:30:30] composite. But actually which is the point where we say we could do minimal prep ceramics [00:30:35] here. Does a ceramic veneer mean we need to cut the tooth? A lot of the times [00:30:40] if we combine it with a bit of ortho, we might not need to cut the tooth at all. What would I want in my own mouth [00:30:45] if I’m covering the whole tooth and I don’t have to prep? Dude, I’m going [00:30:50] ceramic. Ten times out of ten, are we offering that same choice to our patient? Are we sticking [00:30:55] in that lane because we just feel comfortable in that lane, or is it genuinely the right choice for [00:31:00] the patient? So this is what we help our clinicians understand. Even if [00:31:05] you’re not fully confident on it, you have a least need to know the knowledge of what might be better [00:31:10] for them. And if you’re not the one to do it, no problem. Someone else might do it.

Nikhil Sethi: But the whole thing is, as [00:31:15] we go through the course, through the indirect dentistry, then managing full [00:31:20] arch cases, quadrant therapies, you will be able to do those cases by the end of it. So we [00:31:25] want to build you from the ground up with solid evidence base. And the key thing [00:31:30] I guess is you get us throughout the course and we’ve got the arm around the shoulder. You need [00:31:35] the mentoring. You want a case, let’s go for it. They need that help. And [00:31:40] we’re really proud of the data that we’re showing and the increase in fulfilment scores, which is really [00:31:45] important, but also the return of investment because that has to make a difference. Not [00:31:50] that it’s all about money pay, because if you know me, I’m not about money at all. But if you’re going to spend 15 [00:31:55] grand on diploma, you better see that money. Come back quick. And so we track that throughout. [00:32:00] And so for us, we realised that before lockdown we had to change everything [00:32:05] after lockdown. And that’s what gave birth to initially the short courses, then [00:32:10] the blended learning diploma. So again, you know, I can’t listen to an [00:32:15] hour and a half lecture like I used to. Maybe I’m getting older, maybe the way we consume information [00:32:20] via YouTube, TikTok, Instagram has changed. I’m a slave to the occasional death scrolling at one in the [00:32:25] morning when I’ve had a couple.

Payman Langroudi: Of drinks.

Nikhil Sethi: And I’m YouTube shorts. And so for me to watch something for an hour and a half, [00:32:30] I find it hard work unless someone is absolutely mind blowing. Whereas [00:32:35] our whole concept with elevate was let’s keep it down to 25 30 minutes for each [00:32:40] video. If it’s a really complex topic. Part one, part two, watch it in your lunch break. Watch [00:32:45] it after you put the kids to bed again. I’ve got to do stuff.

Payman Langroudi: How much of it is distance and how [00:32:50] much of it is live?

Nikhil Sethi: So with a diploma there’s six modules. [00:32:55] There’s 13 hands on days. There’s six in year one and seven in year two. April, [00:33:00] June, September every year. And there’s over. God, 40 [00:33:05] hours or so of excellent videos to learn on each topic before, but also it [00:33:10] allows dentists to learn at their own time. So by the time they come to the face to face, we can keep the practical [00:33:15] element at about 7,080% of the day. Because when we looked at feedback from our first two [00:33:20] again, I’m never I’m never content. Well, I am content in life, but I’m never content with [00:33:25] where we’re at with our education. I always want to improve it. When we did it in the first two years, [00:33:30] the traditional way, teaching, hands on, teaching hands on. Yeah. By the time we got to 3:00 or [00:33:35] 2:00, when we actually got to do, all the practical people are gone, they [00:33:40] struggle, and then you end up having to rush because you get close to the end of the day. Yeah. Whereas if we can deliver [00:33:45] the kind of pertinent content in advance, in a digestible way [00:33:50] for the modern generation or not even modern people like me. Borderline ADHD, I’m sure. Yeah. [00:33:55] Then by the time you come on the course, we can just recap certain elements. But [00:34:00] everyone’s got a good baseline level. And then it also means after the practical element is done, I can spend [00:34:05] more time talking about real world problems around the topic.

Nikhil Sethi: For example, if [00:34:10] we’re doing a class two composite course the old way, I would literally get through the content [00:34:15] of adhesion, cavity prep, build up, polishing. Whereas now, because [00:34:20] the theory is done, we can talk about deep margin, elevation, missing buccal and palatal walls. How do [00:34:25] you deal with that? We can talk about crown lengthening versus DME. We can talk about [00:34:30] when to go on laser and decision making. Again, it comes back to when is that large amalgam [00:34:35] no longer appropriate for a composite. When do we say this is going [00:34:40] to go for a minimal prep only? Wait, when are great? [00:34:45] Amazing article for those of you out there. Brilliant speaker, Marco Veneziani. He’s got an article [00:34:50] in 2017, I think, or the morphology driven preparation technique. And he’s got [00:34:55] local factors which talk about the tooth itself, meaning minimum thickness of a wall, [00:35:00] one millimetre in a vital tooth, two millimetres in a non-vital tooth, proprioception, weakening [00:35:05] of tooth, previous history of cracks, endo and [00:35:10] general factors looking at wear facets. What else has happened in [00:35:15] that patient’s mouth? Parafunction cuspal inclines. If I’ve got someone that’s [00:35:20] got 15 zirconia crowns in their mouth, and that one premolar with an amalgam [00:35:25] is now fractured, a buccal wall, what makes me think that my mod buccal [00:35:30] composite is going to last in that patient’s mouth? What? Just because I’ve done my reading on adhesion and I think [00:35:35] I’m a brilliant composite dentist.

Nikhil Sethi: I’m not a magician, for God’s sake. We have to [00:35:40] take the history. We’ve got to be Sherlock Holmes. You’ve got to look at the clues. What’s going on in that patient’s [00:35:45] mouth before we decide what’s more appropriate based on those local and general [00:35:50] factors. I then have a clear pathway to show me. Right. This is now less [00:35:55] than a millimetre thick on a mesiobuccal wall. Maybe not the whole tooth, but certainly [00:36:00] that cusp is going to get reduced. Which might mean I do a direct composite overlay, meaning a partial [00:36:05] coverage I might not need over the whole tooth down. If I’ve got cracks. Symptomatic. I was taught [00:36:10] at university. If I’ve got a cracked tooth to take out the amalgam, put a core filling and monitor [00:36:15] vitality. What does that mean? Am I sitting there with a laser Doppler measuring the blood flow? [00:36:20] And what’s to say that two years later, when I prep it, fit [00:36:25] the crown? What’s to say the day later, they’re not back in with the endodontist. This [00:36:30] happened to me. I waited three years on a tooth. I remember it clearly. I remember the lady’s name, Rachel, the [00:36:35] day I fitted the zirconia crown. Next day, back in with the specialist endo straight [00:36:40] through it.

Nikhil Sethi: Whereas if there and then either if I had a milling machine or if I do a direct [00:36:45] composite overlay, or I just go ahead and do a minimal prep ceramic overlay. If I can deal [00:36:50] with the factors to put that tooth back into a compressive state rather [00:36:55] than this massive, gigantic cavity that’s got these tensile forces. All [00:37:00] we’re doing is understanding engineering. It’s something I learned not from a dentist, from an engineer, from [00:37:05] a company called Bioclear, a guy called Jeremy Henderson. Smart guy. And he said, you dentists [00:37:10] are incredible. You can take a tooth in a wet environment, make it [00:37:15] dry, and you can use a hydrophobic chemistry and composite, and you can condition [00:37:20] the tooth and put a restoration that could last for 15, 20, 25 years. It’s amazing. But none of you [00:37:25] understand engineering. When an architect is designing a house or a building, they [00:37:30] design those foundations so that the force goes through it in a compressive state, straight through the foundations, [00:37:35] not in a tensile state. We have to do the same in dentistry, meaning [00:37:40] if those local and general factors hit a certain criteria, like I just said, we [00:37:45] need to drop those cusps. We need to put that tooth back into a compressive state. I’m [00:37:50] not saying you’ll never need to endo a tooth again, of course, but you’re going to massively reduce the [00:37:55] risk of further fractures.

Payman Langroudi: There’s tension between minimally invasive dentistry and [00:38:00] prepping when you need to prep, isn’t it? And I feel like the younger [00:38:05] crowd, they do not want to prep anything. [00:38:10] And and they think they’re being minimally invasive. Whereas in [00:38:15] the wrong situation that’s going to be a much bigger problem, isn’t it? That’s going to break. [00:38:20] Then they’re going to need to do a much bigger thing after that.

Nikhil Sethi: There’s a great term from Daiichi [00:38:25] says that we’ve got to move away from the term just minimally invasive, and we’ve got to look at the [00:38:30] term minimally hazardous. Yeah, because actually it’s not what is the least I can do to this tooth [00:38:35] now, today. It’s what’s going to happen. What are the ramifications? What’s Nick [00:38:40] going to have to deal with in a year, five years, ten years time. And if that’s going to [00:38:45] be a massive crack and a terminal end to that tooth, then maybe I was better off just dropping [00:38:50] that cusp now. The problem we see when we’re teaching dentists is they still feel very underconfident [00:38:55] with that grey area of onlays, with that grey area of minimal prep ceramic [00:39:00] veneers for anterior teeth. They still have it etched in their head. That preparation means [00:39:05] preparation and veneer.

Payman Langroudi: Preferential preparation.

Nikhil Sethi: Or heavy veneer preps. And [00:39:10] it’s all about additive in anterior zones. If I’m treating six teeth, I [00:39:15] can ask my lab to bulk out each tooth by 0.3mm. No one’s ever going to notice that, [00:39:20] but that means I’m literally scratching the surface. Once I’ve prepped through my mock up, I’m hardly touching the tooth [00:39:25] at all for posteriors. I’m doing my normal mod cavity prep, but all I’m doing is [00:39:30] reducing the cusp by one and a half mil. One and a half mil Payman that’s it. The rest of it is [00:39:35] the same. I can see the whole buccal wall, the whole palatal wall. If there’s a bit of caries [00:39:40] in seven years time, I can repair it. I’m giving Nick Sethi or the next dentist enough tooth [00:39:45] to go again in 1015 years time. Because the only thing we can promise our patient is, whatever [00:39:50] I do today is going to fail. And all I’m trying to do is make sure when it does fail, we [00:39:55] can go again. But not blindly thinking, let me just put the biggest composite I can put on and say, [00:40:00] tap myself on the back. You want to talk about mistakes? I’ve had countless [00:40:05] composites that I did when I first qualified because I was so scared of prepping [00:40:10] teeth. And I remember at least 5 or 6 of them within a year, fracturing vertically, [00:40:15] ending up needing extraction. Who won? No one I didn’t win. [00:40:20] Patient thinks I’m incompetent. Patient didn’t win because they’ve got to go through all of that again. Imagine having to have [00:40:25] an ID block this horrible, ghastly rubber dam. Someone drilling in your face while you’re awake. [00:40:30] We get desensitised to all of that. We forget.

Payman Langroudi: Listen, I had an onlay yesterday.

Nikhil Sethi: It’s not fun. [00:40:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s not.

Nikhil Sethi: Fun.

Payman Langroudi: At all. It’s Horrible. It’s a horrible [00:40:40] feeling. Numbness isn’t fun. No. Uh, drilling is not fun at all. [00:40:45]

Nikhil Sethi: It rings. Yeah. I had Elaine bonding my Invisalign attachments. She was incredible, by the way. [00:40:50] 20 minutes. I was totally bonded up. I hated every minute of it. Having an option?

Payman Langroudi: You don’t know whether you should breathe [00:40:55] or not. It’s. You’re all over the place.

Nikhil Sethi: It’s horrible. It’s horrible. So having to then [00:41:00] do that all over again on the same tooth out of the other 32 in the mouth is [00:41:05] not a good patient journey. No. Definitely not. So we’ve got to become more confident. [00:41:10] We’ve got to merge the two of the traditional concepts. But learning the modern material science, [00:41:15] how we can bond to beautiful lithium disilicate, how we can bond to zirconia, even how we can [00:41:20] do additive dentistry with our lab to wax up teeth so that we’re hardly touching teeth at all. But we can [00:41:25] still treat teeth either with composite or ceramic. But being minimally hazardous, respecting material [00:41:30] thickness. That’s another thing. A lot of times material thickness. Correct. [00:41:35] I see a lot of people saying, oh, there’s a thin media buckle cast. Let me drop that down a touch and put a [00:41:40] bit of composite over it. Yeah, but what’s a bit of composite if I’m layering over 0.2mm of composite? [00:41:45] Would I give my lab 0.2mm of space for a zirconia crown, which is much [00:41:50] stronger? No, I wouldn’t. So why are we doing that with composite? Yeah. So I built my career on composite. [00:41:55] I love the material and if you’re going to use it, you need to respect minimum thicknesses. [00:42:00]

Payman Langroudi: For sure.

Nikhil Sethi: 100%, 100%. So it comes back down to evidence [00:42:05] based treatment planning, documenting going back every year. [00:42:10] I like to look at the previous year and see, okay, here’s where I’ve come. I’m quite happy with this. We’ve [00:42:15] made some good strides. I’m still finding I’m not quite nailing my shades with certain veneer [00:42:20] case. For example, I didn’t quite get it perfect. What can we do? Whose [00:42:25] cores do I need to go on? What do I need to read? Do I have a good enough relationship with my [00:42:30] lab technician? Do I have a good enough relationship with the trade to teach me more about composites I’m bonding this material [00:42:35] on? Did I whiten enough? There’s so many factors that might not just be [00:42:40] to do with my hands. So, for example, I say to my dentist on the course, rather than working [00:42:45] with a lab, form a relationship with the lab technician, the human, the [00:42:50] human.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Nikhil Sethi: And make sure every lab docket you send you put on there give me feedback. [00:42:55] Mhm. Because otherwise they won’t they don’t want to bite the hand that feeds them. No. Right. [00:43:00] So I said to Eva Faust from fusion shout out she’s made my dentistry look great for years. I’ve [00:43:05] always said until recently, um, give me feedback. And when she [00:43:10] didn’t, I’d physically phone and say, Eva, you didn’t give me feedback. And she said, okay, you kind of prepped me here. I had [00:43:15] to make it a little bit thinner. I said, yeah, I thought so because when I held it up, I saw that my lithium disilicate was see through. So [00:43:20] I say, if I haven’t given you enough space, just tell me. Don’t make the restoration thin [00:43:25] or high. And that way the lab pushes me. And [00:43:30] when it gets to a certain level, you go the other way where you start to push the lab. Yeah, if you’re [00:43:35] pushing yourself and my margins are getting tidier, tidier, tidier. They’ve got no excuse [00:43:40] to then get it right. And there’s this lovely, sweet spot where you don’t get it right every time, [00:43:45] but you get it right more often than you don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Nikhil Sethi: And now, I mean, I don’t [00:43:50] even have to have a conversation with Eva. And I’m using a fantastic lab. Stefan Rosen in Austria. [00:43:55] You know, we barely have to chat because we’re on that level.

Payman Langroudi: You understand each other? Totally. [00:44:00]

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah, totally. So for young dentists, go to the lab. Do you know, even, like, for example, you’ve [00:44:05] showed me around your amazing venue here. Congratulations to you, by the way. It’s amazing what you’ve created with enlighten. You [00:44:10] know, have any of your many of your actually just said Payman, can I just come and watch [00:44:15] when I send the impression what happens? So I can learn when I’m scanning? Am I getting [00:44:20] you what you need? Have I rushed it? Have I not given? If I’m asking for a nice scallop trays. If I capture [00:44:25] the gingival margin properly with that scan. Because otherwise I’m just going to blame you [00:44:30] if it doesn’t fit. But could I have done something better myself? Yeah. So I went and spent days with my [00:44:35] lab understanding. I’ve done research projects on light curing. I’ve done research projects on adhesion. [00:44:40]

Payman Langroudi: Even in the short time that I was a dentist, I learned a lot from my technician. [00:44:45] A lot even even in terms of treatment planning. You know, there were [00:44:50] situations where the technician would step in and say, I can use slightly more opaque porcelain [00:44:55] there so that you don’t need to prep it as much or something like some [00:45:00] something I didn’t know was even possible.

Nikhil Sethi: Classic example, but a single [00:45:05] dark nonvital tooth. Yeah. God, how many times have we had a conversation? Internal whitening or [00:45:10] not? Internal whitening or not? And you know, we’ve got to a point now with modern ceramics and micro [00:45:15] layering of zirconia’s that if you are going down the ceramic route, why not let the lab [00:45:20] do the hard work for you? Use a white zirconia coping and microlayer it [00:45:25] with veneering ceramic on top, and don’t do the internal whitening. Whiten the rest of the teeth externally, and [00:45:30] then you’ve got no relapse risk, which you normally have 30% relapse risk with internal whitening. Yeah. If [00:45:35] you’re not able to do additive dentistry and you’re thinking about composite, then yes, internal whitening [00:45:40] comes totally back in the fold. But it doesn’t mean you have to do it for every single nonvital tooth. And I learned [00:45:45] that from lab technicians. Yeah. And understanding what thickness they [00:45:50] need, how much thickness they need to kick up a shade by 3 or 4 shades. Yeah, because [00:45:55] that varies massively. Uh, and I’m eternally grateful for these tips and nuggets [00:46:00] that I’ve received over the years. That means a case that might have taken me a week to think [00:46:05] about. I can generally plan a case within half an hour or an hour. Not always, [00:46:10] but generally.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s a two year course. 15 grand, right?

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah. [00:46:15] So it’s the full level seven diploma and we cover, like I said, [00:46:20] everything from the basics to crown lengthening. We’ve got an amazing faculty. Again it’s going to come back [00:46:25] to bite. Unfortunately we’ve got Rob doing crown lengthening. He’s incredibly. He always gets the best feedback. [00:46:30] We’ve got Daniel Flynn, best dancers in Europe in my opinion, and doing fantastic. [00:46:35] He does a simplified endo day. Again, one of the best feedbacks we get. We’ve [00:46:40] got Tom Seeley from Smart Fast. He does an advanced smart fast for wear cases using dial concept. [00:46:45] Um, we’ve got Tiff Qureshi doing, uh, a line of therapies and [00:46:50] edge restoring. And, you know, I’ve probably missed out some. We’ve got an incredible roster of faculty. [00:46:55] But the key thing is pay. They’re not delivering different messages. There’s a coherence. [00:47:00] Well, we’ve spent time with all of them to make sure that everyone’s on the same page. Otherwise, [00:47:05] I remember we used to run a course before elevate, which is how I met Dipesh. I remember [00:47:10] you helped me arrange a course with Dipesh at my practice. Yeah, yeah. Um, we called it Ace Ethics, [00:47:15] a terrible name. It sounds like Jonathan Ross. Um, [00:47:20] but it’s a great course. But we had ten different lecturers. Robert Daniel Flynn at [00:47:25] the time. Um, that’s how me and Riaz met. And whilst that was great, it was [00:47:30] brilliant for experienced dentists who wanted just to learn from ten different wicked names. But for younger [00:47:35] dentists, everyone’s learning is everyone’s message is slightly different. I might do a selective [00:47:40] etch technique. I might not etch the dentine. Someone else might etch the dentine. It doesn’t mean [00:47:45] we’re wrong. I go by a Bart van Meerbeeck pathway. Someone might follow, and that’s fine. Occlusion. [00:47:50] Different concepts. So we’ve made sure anyone that’s on our programme, we’ve had [00:47:55] multiple discussions to make sure that we’re singing off the same hymn sheet, so that we’re not confusing [00:48:00] the message by the time you’re finished. I’m not saying you’ll be proficient at full mouth rehabs, [00:48:05] but you’ll have a really solid platform to do excellent dentistry. And where you take it [00:48:10] from there, the world is your oyster. That’s the beautiful part.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a treatment planning [00:48:15] sort of help.

Nikhil Sethi: On during the programme? Yeah, loads. [00:48:20] Yeah. You put it. We push you though.

Payman Langroudi: So how many how many cases can I bring in for you to help me treatment plan. [00:48:25]

Nikhil Sethi: During the course? Typically say a couple of cases per module, but and I [00:48:30] don’t mean this disrespectfully to anyone out there, what has always been my bugbear when I’ve done lectures is [00:48:35] someone will take my number and the next day they’ll just ping me a WhatsApp picture, say, Nick, what would you do? Yeah. [00:48:40] No context. Yeah. Like it’d be a large amalgam. Yeah. And if [00:48:45] I, if I don’t have enough information to answer that question. And that’s not me being disrespectful, [00:48:50] but how are you going to learn if you don’t at least come to me with a potential solution? So [00:48:55] we teach you to put together a case presentation like we did at uni radiographs [00:49:00] history taking patient expectations, patient finances, something RI has always taught me the three pillars [00:49:05] of treatment planning desirability, suitability, affordability. You’ve got to within [00:49:10] our skill set and provide a treatment plan that fits within that Venn diagram. It’s got to be suitable [00:49:15] for the patient. It’s got to be what they desire and it’s got to be affordable. You’ve got to find something that works.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:49:20] know what I’m thinking? Where I’m going with it is, you know, there are these services where people, um, treat and plan [00:49:25] your Invisalign. You know about this? Yeah. That you pay someone, I don’t know, £100. And [00:49:30] they they do the treatment plan for your Invisalign, and that’s all they do. That’s that’s kind of their value add [00:49:35] that. They’re good at that. They must be there should be not there must be. There should [00:49:40] be a service where I’m a dentist. I’ve got a case. I’m [00:49:45] not sure what to do with it. I’ve got hand skills. Yeah, but [00:49:50] I’m not sure what to do with it. And I could pay someone sit down with me for [00:49:55] 1520, however long it is treatment in this case, and get paid for [00:50:00] that.

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah. And it’s something that we’re actually going to exist. Yeah, it should exist. I asked do something with that [00:50:05] I’m sure with their mentoring.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But again it’s not it’s not restorative. I’m thinking restorative.

Nikhil Sethi: It’s something that [00:50:10] we’re probably going to kill kill for saying it. We are launching a [00:50:15] service which includes a clinical guide app, which is going to be like a little pocket guide. Watch [00:50:20] a quick video the night before an anterior composite. Have a video that will show you the setup and a video for nurses as well. [00:50:25] Let’s engage our extended team and also with that will become a option for treatment [00:50:30] planning that we can then help you with as long as you’re following the exact right steps. [00:50:35] And then we’ve got an amazing faculty now that we can then assign a case to. And [00:50:40] it’s something that we’re hopefully going to get sorted by the end of the year. But it’s [00:50:45] really important that young dentists have that structured [00:50:50] way to learn, but also that support onwards. Otherwise you go on a course, you go on a nice weekend course, come and learn an online [00:50:55] course, but then come back Monday. There’s still questions you’ve got, you’ve got to have that wraparound [00:51:00] care. And I don’t know whether it’s just the people I’ve met, but it’s a worrying trend [00:51:05] that I’m seeing clinicians with less and less clinical experience coming through uni. I don’t know if you’re finding the same [00:51:10] thing in your conversations. Less extractions, less endos, less composite everything. Yeah, and [00:51:15] it’s more important than ever that you’re doing some form of [00:51:20] structured learning. And I often get asked, when’s the right time to do a postgrad [00:51:25] course?

Payman Langroudi: I’d say straight.

Nikhil Sethi: Away. Straight away. Yeah. And again, that’s not just elevate, Chris [00:51:30] or.

Payman Langroudi: I’d say straight.

Nikhil Sethi: Away Chris or smile. Monique. Ace aspire whoever you [00:51:35] want. Meet them. Chat to them. If they resonate with you going 100%, it could be you want to [00:51:40] go back and do something at uni. You might want to go do a df2. You might want to do a specialist route. Go for [00:51:45] it. It’s like you see a lot of people in education. They get funny when someone else [00:51:50] starts to launch courses because it’s like you’re treading on their toes. Yeah, it’s like when a new practice opens, I [00:51:55] don’t care. Good for them. There’s enough for everyone to go around as long as we’re doing it for the right reasons. [00:52:00] It’s that saying from that old film, Wayne’s World two, if you book them, they will come. If I’ve got if [00:52:05] I’ve got a good product from the heart and I’m doing a good enough job of talking to [00:52:10] people about it, and we’ve got a good enough job of people giving us testimonials and a cohort that believes [00:52:15] in us. It will work. It will work. And like I said, no one goes [00:52:20] into teaching just for the money because most of the time you still earn more just [00:52:25] from doing clinical. If someone’s got a structured course, they’re doing it generally for the right reasons. I don’t think [00:52:30] you’ll go wrong, probably shooting myself in the foot here, but I believe that everyone does things for the right [00:52:35] reason.

Payman Langroudi: So the back end of this, you’re [00:52:40] kind of responsible for this. Oh yeah.

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah. I mean, look.

Payman Langroudi: We all [00:52:45] these videos and things, who’s making those? I mean, have you got a team of media [00:52:50] people now?

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah. We we’ve we’ve got a lot of people behind the team. And I’ve got to give some shout outs [00:52:55] because a lot of effort has gone into this. We’ve got Elaine who’s been instrumental at kind of keeping the engine [00:53:00] running and making sure that we’re organised. She whips me into shape. We’ve got Eamonn, who’s [00:53:05] been great at reviewing the videos, to say, is it is it of a good enough level in terms [00:53:10] of have we gone through the foundations or have we skipped to go too far towards the end. Um, [00:53:15] we’ve got a great admin team behind us that keep the wheel. You know, the admin team never get the shout out. Yeah, [00:53:20] it’s the admin team that keep us all in check. We’ve got a great videographer team. We’ve changed a [00:53:25] couple over the years that know our style. We’ve got an IT team that handle our platform to [00:53:30] make sure there’s as few glitches as we can. And the biggest thing for me is [00:53:35] when you finish our diploma, the people that we’ve resonated with and that resonated with us, we invite them [00:53:40] to come back and do our Train the Trainers program, where they then get to come and learn from all the courses again [00:53:45] in return for like helping us set up and set down all of that stuff. But we then teach them how [00:53:50] to speak, how to present cases, and gradually they then become our lecturers. They [00:53:55] fly the flag for us. And now, as we’re launching into Europe and doing courses across Switzerland, Belgium, [00:54:00] Germany, Netherlands, it can’t just be me and Riaz. [00:54:05] We cannot be the ones just to do that. So my role is becoming [00:54:10] less important to be the face of it. I’m enjoying seeing clinicians [00:54:15] grow. I’ve learned so much from clinicians like just a few names [00:54:20] Josh Patel, Viraj Patel, incredible dentists that have come through our diploma and [00:54:25] are now teaching me stuff. I don’t do as many composites as I used to. I do slightly more ceramic [00:54:30] work, but I’m learning more about new matrix bands and new techniques and it’s brilliant. It is great. [00:54:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. One of the nicest things about teaching.

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah, you’ve got to be open minded, you’ve [00:54:40] got to change. So yeah, there’s a nice little machine building around us. We’re [00:54:45] nowhere near where I would like to be, but I’m really happy of [00:54:50] where we’ve got to so far.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been quick, man.

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah. There’s [00:54:55] been it’s been slow for me. It’s been great, but.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been quick. But, [00:55:00] you know, considering that we last spoke four years ago.

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And now it feels [00:55:05] like you’ve been around for years, years and years and years and years. You know, it feels like you’ve been around a long time, and [00:55:10] you took 100 hands on.

Nikhil Sethi: Uh. Yeah. Next year, you’ll be a hundred hands on [00:55:15] courses.

Payman Langroudi: 100? Yeah.

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a lot, man.

Nikhil Sethi: And look, you know what? Again, [00:55:20] it goes back to who’s inspired me. And I tell you what, [00:55:25] a shout out goes to Jin and Kish from Smile Academy as well. When we first came out of Covid, we did [00:55:30] our first hands on course in collaboration with them, our minimal prep course, and it was [00:55:35] them that showed me like how we can make it really fun. I mean, how to bring our personalities [00:55:40] into it and make the course really fun and what they’ve done with their branding for the next generation. [00:55:45] Matt, you talk about a big machine. You know, they’re huge. Um, we’ve [00:55:50] had incredible people around us that have just kept us grounded and kept us honest. You know, even Rob [00:55:55] will say, guys didn’t like the way you got that point across. I think you could do that better. Okay, fine. Let’s rip up [00:56:00] that lecture. Let’s go again. You know, you’ve got to continually get advice from people [00:56:05] and be inspired from people to get better and better. Matter.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s look today at the, um, [00:56:10] Newton fall event. Yeah. And he said that Newton falls below. Don’t [00:56:15] don’t play your your records. Yeah. Don’t don’t play your your decks during my [00:56:20] lecture. I was like yeah I think you asked the old guy there. And the other.

Nikhil Sethi: Thing. [00:56:25]

Payman Langroudi: For.

Nikhil Sethi: For me, which was really important, is you [00:56:30] see a lot of teachers out there that are just doing it on their own. And yeah, you make [00:56:35] more money doing a course on your own. But I get lonely, bro. I mean, when I was doing the travelling, [00:56:40] especially when I started doing the American courses, it sounded great. Oh, yeah. I lectured in New York [00:56:45] last week, you know. Great, bro. It’s fucking lonely, man. Yeah. On a plane, hotel [00:56:50] on my own. Didn’t really know anyone. Having surface level conversations, small talk. He was [00:56:55] lonely. And so early on, we made the call that. Look, we might earn a lot [00:57:00] less money per course, but we’re going to do it together. I’m going to hang out with my best friend in the world who’s my brother. Let’s [00:57:05] just go chill. And then from that it’s been doing courses with Riyadh, doing courses with Elaine. We have a rule I’d [00:57:10] rather split the money and do it with one of them, and now with one of the faculties. And so it [00:57:15] keeps it fun. And when my energy dips in a day, which obviously does happen, the other person picks [00:57:20] it up and likewise.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And collaborate collaborative I mean the masters of [00:57:25] collaboration. Right. Um, it just gets a lot, lot bigger, a lot, lot quicker by doing that.

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah. Collaboration [00:57:30] is key. And it comes down to not again thinking bigger. [00:57:35] And again, that was inspired to me by Dev Dental beauty, uh, Dev and Arjun, [00:57:40] his brother in law. I mean, what they taught me again, both younger than me, but [00:57:45] what they’ve taught me in terms of having a final destination in mind and [00:57:50] just laser focus and going for it. And, you know, I remember [00:57:55] I’ve known dev for years. I think he was third year uni. We [00:58:00] were on, I was good mates with his brother Nikesh. He’s a funny guy and we were at a [00:58:05] birthday in Monaco, and I remember them saying to me, then he’s like, I’m going to build a [00:58:10] best UK group of private dentistry, and I’m going to really just make sure that we keep the high levels down. [00:58:15] I remember thinking, all right, mate.

Payman Langroudi: Third year of university.

Nikhil Sethi: I remember I remember saying, all right, mate, good one. Um, [00:58:20] absolutely right. He had his he had his dream and he got there. Incredible. [00:58:25] And that taught me being able to think bigger [00:58:30] and not being afraid to think bigger, and also not being afraid to fail. We’ve [00:58:35] had courses that have been duds. We tried to launch. I won’t name it because we’re still, you know, people. [00:58:40] I don’t want to offend people. Of course, it just didn’t work. Dad. No traction at all. But we dumped [00:58:45] it quick. It doesn’t work. Don’t matter. We’ll move on. It’s cool. We’ve lost thousands of pounds on certain endeavours. [00:58:50] I’m sure you’ve had the same trauma. And it’s like what the famous saying is. Fail quick, fail [00:58:55] quick and move on.

Payman Langroudi: It’s difficult to know, though, for sure. Yeah, it’s difficult to know. I mean, [00:59:00] I’m going to bring out a range of toothpaste.

Nikhil Sethi: Nice.

Payman Langroudi: Next year. Um. And, [00:59:05] uh, difficult to know when it’s failed. [00:59:10] Whether it’s. When’s the right time, when is quick and when isn’t quick. Yeah.

Nikhil Sethi: That’s [00:59:15] hard. And I’m probably not the best person because I think we probably left it a bit too long on a certain number of products.

Payman Langroudi: I feel [00:59:20] like you’ve been quite, quite like, uh, you know, you succeeded quickly with with [00:59:25] elevate, right? So you saw something that works very quickly. So you can sort of your timeframe [00:59:30] for what works and what doesn’t is that. Yeah. But you know, I [00:59:35] had a different time frame, you know, for, for enlightened if I first six years, [00:59:40] which really didn’t make much money, six years, you know, four years, we lost loads of money, maybe [00:59:45] for two years we were like break even. Yeah, but.

Nikhil Sethi: You disrupted the industry.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Nikhil Sethi: It’s incredible. [00:59:50]

Payman Langroudi: But but what I’m saying.

Nikhil Sethi: Is, I’m sure it took a hell of a lot of blood, sweat and tears to do it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, and it wasn’t [00:59:55] even a thought out process, right? Like we were just in such financial nightmare that [01:00:00] there was no way of getting out of it. You know, we had all our houses on the line and everything. [01:00:05] We had to find a way. And it took six years to find a way. Now the next [01:00:10] man will say six years or six years of losses. Why didn’t you just cut out earlier?

Nikhil Sethi: Was there a point [01:00:15] when you thought, this isn’t going to work?

Payman Langroudi: Many times. But we’re in trouble. The [01:00:20] financial trouble at that point. Now I bring out a new toothpaste. The ones you can see there. Those ones. One [01:00:25] of them’s been around since 2011. Wow. Now it’s making [01:00:30] loads of money. But it was part of our kit. And the other one, maybe 2016. [01:00:35] And it’s making money. But, you know, when I bring out a toothpaste next year, [01:00:40] how long do I wait before figuring out this is working or it isn’t?

Nikhil Sethi: Six years is the [01:00:45] answer.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. No, but six is in today’s market.

Nikhil Sethi: No, it’s it’s it’s ridiculous. [01:00:50]

Payman Langroudi: Six years. You can’t wait six years.

Nikhil Sethi: Do you know that also brings me on to another [01:00:55] person that I. I always admire is Drew Shah of Dentinal tubules. Yeah. And, [01:01:00] you know, again, the blood, sweat and tears that guy put into getting tubules off the ground, [01:01:05] uh, is unbelievable. And he again, he’s not he’s never cared about the end [01:01:10] profit of it. He really doesn’t care. And I know he gives across that image. And people say I bet he does. He doesn’t care. It [01:01:15] is he’s trying to create something special. And it’s not easy. But again, he taught [01:01:20] me the power of making people feel special around him. So what he did with our [01:01:25] with the Dentinal Tubules scheme or local directors to run study clubs, it gave them [01:01:30] a sense of purpose. It gave them a sense of leadership. He did leadership programs for free with us. He spent [01:01:35] a lot of time with us. I’m incredibly grateful and inspired. If you talk about an online education platform, [01:01:40] he’s one of the biggest out there as well. There’s so many incredible people that I’ve learned from, [01:01:45] and I’m still learning from another one of Roderick’s. Um, [01:01:50] yeah, again, taught me to see something slightly differently when we started doing some gigs with [01:01:55] Roderick’s Rodricks about how we can be a bit more bespoke with them, and [01:02:00] taught me just how I need to be better at understanding my numbers. He ripped me apart when we first started speaking. I didn’t understand [01:02:05] my numbers at all and he saw straight through that. That was a hard lesson learnt. I’ve always been [01:02:10] the eternal clinician and I’ve learnt from Sanj, who has just been incredible at what he does, [01:02:15] but he’s never looked at the business, so I’m now going back. I’ve always had a rule where I spend roughly ten grand [01:02:20] a year on education. I’m not doing so much clinical education now. I will do. I’ve got the [01:02:25] itch for it again. I’ve done all of that. I’m not saying I’ve learnt it all, but for now, the last [01:02:30] three years have been leadership courses, financial intelligence, things that are going to help me [01:02:35] grow a business. So I wish.

Payman Langroudi: Which ones did you do?

Nikhil Sethi: I did [01:02:40] Samir’s leadership course, um, various short courses online on just understanding [01:02:45] pianos. I pay a business coach I can’t name, unfortunately. Um, business coach [01:02:50] on helping me with structuring the numbers with elevate and how to look at panels and understand [01:02:55] things that I didn’t understand before, helping me also understand the importance of [01:03:00] not just looking at what money is coming in, but what’s left at the end. Tax fat, [01:03:05] all of that into consideration. Is it actually worth it? Uh, it’s great. And I’ve got a new [01:03:10] buzz for understanding how to create a venture. Then [01:03:15] just the end goal of the composite I’m placing. But I still love all of [01:03:20] it. The balancing act and the mistake I make or made is [01:03:25] until recently, I didn’t drop my clinical days down quick enough. So [01:03:30] I think if someone has a real burning desire to go into a product or [01:03:35] education, if you feel like you’ve got something which loads of people have, there’s [01:03:40] some incredible young. You see, even I’ve listened to your podcast, some of the Next Generation, they’re well ahead of us. Yeah. [01:03:45] What they could do with AI, what they’re what they could do with technology, how much more savvy they are than me at social media. [01:03:50] They can go flipping Crazy about what we’re doing now, but it’s about at [01:03:55] which point do you create time? For example.

Payman Langroudi: One of the only advantages, [01:04:00] one of the main advantages of being a dentist is you can cut a day whenever you want. Yeah. You [01:04:05] know, and you’re absolutely right. I mean, it’s so important to, to to do it the right [01:04:10] time.

Nikhil Sethi: So I’m guilty of this. I mean, look, we’ve got two practices. I’ve got Square Mile Dental Centre with [01:04:15] Sanj and Amit, I’ve got dental practice in Essex. We’ve got elevate. And [01:04:20] like I said, the most important job. Husband and dad, that is the most [01:04:25] important job. Am I guilty of not always spinning those plates perfectly? Oh, man. [01:04:30] For sure. There’s often days where I think I’ve nailed it. You wake [01:04:35] up, there’s no emergency messages. You look at the numbers coming. Everything looks good. The course is. [01:04:40] The feedback comes through. Best course I’ve ever been on our lovely environment. Food was great, brilliant. [01:04:45] The practices are all ticking and I’m thinking this is easy. This is chilling. And [01:04:50] then the next day, everything goes wrong. A nurse has resigned. [01:04:55] Someone’s kicked off. A patient’s complained. A crown that I put on has come off. A temporary crown, they’re in pain. I’ve [01:05:00] got now. I’ve got to go back in and see someone. Um. Of course the. There was no [01:05:05] halal or veggie options. You know, a lecturer didn’t turn up on time or something. We’re missing. [01:05:10] Oh, man. We had a course literally in April where everything was couriered over. Like, everything [01:05:15] was clockwork. As normal. No problem. Woke up in the morning, 20 missed calls.

Nikhil Sethi: The [01:05:20] courier forgot to bring the whole box of Moses and hand pieces. And I’ve got a prep course. Not a composite, [01:05:25] you know. I’ve got a prep course. 25 people for a really important account, a really important, [01:05:30] uh, big dso. I’ve got no Moses hand pieces. Thankfully, a good [01:05:35] friend of mine, Bilal Arshad, loaned me motors at the 11th hour, but it’s. And I was, [01:05:40] I must admit, for 20 minutes I was just staring at the wall. I had the biggest imposter [01:05:45] syndrome I’ve ever had thinking, I can’t do this. I’ve got. I’ve [01:05:50] got my kid grabbing at my leg saying, daddy, daddy, can we play? I’ve got a nurse leaving [01:05:55] course going on. I’m thinking, what am I doing? This is crazy. And so I definitely don’t have that [01:06:00] balance right all the time. I don’t want anyone to watch this thinking I got it all put together. Man. I have days where I feel [01:06:05] like I’ve got so much to learn, but I feed off the energy of [01:06:10] the days where it all feels brilliant. Those days keep me going. I know I’ll get through the days where [01:06:15] I don’t have it all figured out. Plus the incredible positive support network around me [01:06:20] and the family around me.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, hands on is hard. It’s hard. Um, [01:06:25] I remember once we forgot Mandrels. [01:06:30] Yeah, yeah.

Nikhil Sethi: Depeche must have hit the wall. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It was a funny [01:06:35] situation. We’d taken them to be a CD. Normally they’re on the drills [01:06:40] and then BCD put them together and taken them off. No one [01:06:45] had told them to leave them on. Yeah. Something as simple as that. And because it was a BCD was a [01:06:50] different thing to what we were normally doing, our warehouse team didn’t realise and sent everything. [01:06:55] No mandrels. Yeah. And on a composite course and our mandrels are our [01:07:00] mandrels are specific to the discs. Yeah. So we’re like, what are we going to do? And, [01:07:05] you know, it’s like those people you say that people you come to rely on, people who do anything for [01:07:10] you. Uh. Bless their soul. Lewis McKenzie.

Nikhil Sethi: Amazing. Amazing person. [01:07:15]

Payman Langroudi: We were. We were in Birmingham. And Lewis McKenzie just turned up with ten [01:07:20] different polishing systems and mandrels. Like hundreds. He just completely sorted [01:07:25] it out for us. He just had them somewhere. Yeah. Yeah.

Nikhil Sethi: But I love that bit about the [01:07:30] course that I kind of love the that the panic, the panic and just the problem solving. [01:07:35] Yeah. And it’s what I say is whenever we’ve got one of our younger faculties [01:07:40] doing a lecture, I always say, look, if something’s not quite right, remember, we’ve got us behind [01:07:45] you, and we’ll sort it somehow by hook or crook. We’ll make it work. I mean, I’ve been. I’ve run around hardware stores trying [01:07:50] to find air canisters. Yeah. Before, in the middle of a course, you know, I’m running to Screwfix or [01:07:55] whatever. Trying to pick up stuff. You know, the score. It’s it’s. But as long as we get there. [01:08:00] Oh, this is a crazy story. We had a course in Geneva, my first opportunity to work with [01:08:05] a large DSO in Europe that have trusted me to do a hands on course with Sandra [01:08:10] and Elaine in Geneva. A massive opportunity for us. Really excited. Um, no [01:08:15] fault of the two companies that were supporting on the day. There was just a mix up of dates the [01:08:20] day before, as we do now a week before. Uh, just checking. Everything’s all [01:08:25] good. What time are you guys setting up today? Both companies. Not just one. Oh, we haven’t got [01:08:30] this course in our diary. So, 24 hours before this course, bro, I’m not lying. I [01:08:35] had no hand pieces, no composite, no instruments, no nothing. Mate, that [01:08:40] was an intense night. So me, plus the Swiss team guy called Olivier. Jared. [01:08:45] Uh. Great guy. We phoned everyone in the phone book. I raided my warehouse. He [01:08:50] raided his. I phoned friends and I’ll tell you, somehow we pulled it off. I never want [01:08:55] to be in that situation. And we’ve learned some real hard facts from that boy. Uh, that [01:09:00] was that was fun. But we made great friends off the back of it, and I sent everyone a bottle of wine [01:09:05] to say thanks. That got me out of a jam on that. And, uh, yeah, it’s it’s again, [01:09:10] if you don’t have it comes back to what we said earlier, being at the Academy’s forming [01:09:15] friendships. If I didn’t have those friendships.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like Bilal, you met him at Bard? [01:09:20]

Nikhil Sethi: Of course we did. Mancos course together, for instance. Yeah, and we met at Bard. You [01:09:25] know, if I didn’t have those friendships fostered, I’d never have that helping hand. [01:09:30] It’s, uh. Yeah, it makes me feel quite lucky, actually, when you reflect [01:09:35] on it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about, um, Dental beauty. Why [01:09:40] did you go down that route?

Nikhil Sethi: I believed in their vision. Listen, I work with a lot of dsos [01:09:45] with elevate, and I think each one has an incredible different vision to get to that size. [01:09:50] It’s hard enough owning one practice, and I don’t think I do the best job I could. Uh, [01:09:55] but to own several ten, 15, 2000, however big you are, I think it takes a massive machine. [01:10:00] Uh, I’ve always known and trusted Dev and Arjun. I got to know through the process. [01:10:05] And I believe in their vision. And what I liked is they’ve stuck [01:10:10] to his word. It didn’t stifle me as a director. I was still able to use my materials and do my private dentistry. [01:10:15] What I didn’t want is to not be able to do the type of dentistry that I perhaps [01:10:20] had been slightly constricted in the past, when I’d worked with certain smaller groups. [01:10:25] They’ve kind of gave me autonomy within reason. And he’ll be laughing listening [01:10:30] to this, because I did take the mic with materials. I think I’ve still got the highest staff pay of the group, and I think I [01:10:35] still buy more lunches than other people. We have lunches every couple of weeks and I love the team and [01:10:40] I believed in the partnership [01:10:45] model. And that journey was why?

Payman Langroudi: Because you didn’t want [01:10:50] to deal with the bullshit yourself?

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah, yeah, I think I don’t have it [01:10:55] in me to be everything, to run a practice on my own. Maybe I don’t [01:11:00] believe it. And actually, I’ve always partnered with people in Square Mile, with Amit, with [01:11:05] Riaz, with elevate, with David and Beauty. And it’s in my head, it’s the best thing I’ve done because everyone brings [01:11:10] a different skill set. Yeah, me and Sanj have similar skill sets, but [01:11:15] Riaz has a totally different incredible skill set. He’s the professor. The brain, the academic brain. Dev’s [01:11:20] the financial brain. You know the vision. You’ve got Amit, who’s brought a bit more of [01:11:25] a ruthless streak to me in terms of cost, identifying where perhaps I didn’t really care about that so much. You know, [01:11:30] you learn off people around you. Not that I’m saying to anyone, don’t go and do it on your own. If [01:11:35] you feel like you can do it. Don’t let me be the person to tell you not to. But me personally, [01:11:40] I like spreading the risk because it allowed me to do more things and it allowed me to [01:11:45] learn. Do I have regrets? Yes. Do I have private things that I wish I’d done differently? [01:11:50] Yes. But I’ve enjoyed each step. And I’ve come a long way from that learning [01:11:55] process. Now I still own part of my shares for Dental beauty Group. We released [01:12:00] we. We sold some of it. But, uh, I still believe in the model. I [01:12:05] love my team. Both practices grandma and, uh, Dental. But my team Dental. [01:12:10] I tell you, there could be two nurses off and two temps, a [01:12:15] dentist off sick. But I walk in and that reception team will still be smiling at me. They will still be smiling. [01:12:20] I don’t know how, I don’t know why.

Payman Langroudi: Did you hire them?

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah, we pretty much the team [01:12:25] is pretty much all mine now, apart from 2 or 3 they’ve been there from for many years. Uh, but [01:12:30] we fostered a culture that allowed it to be [01:12:35] safe for them to make mistakes. Allow them to make decisions. My manager [01:12:40] knows that I don’t micromanage. If things go wrong, so what? They go wrong? It’s all good. I don’t have time [01:12:45] to be there as much as I should, so I rely on them to make decisions. And they’re incredible. [01:12:50]

Payman Langroudi: Are there associates there?

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah, loads. We’ve got about 5 or 6 associates. They’re brilliant. And a [01:12:55] few of them are actually. Two of them are actually done. I’ll have a diploma. And I’ve now given them job opportunities [01:13:00] with us because I trust them, because I’ve seen them on the courses and they’re great. Kushana and Henry are doing a great job. [01:13:05] And we’ve got incredible associates, Anuj Desai and Daniel Erickson. Irene, [01:13:10] um, brilliant clinical team. Same in Square Mile. We’ve got, I think, one [01:13:15] of the best clinical teams in the UK at Square Mile. Um, I’m very grateful to have these people [01:13:20] around me.

Payman Langroudi: The work in Basildon as well.

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah. He does implants there. He’s, [01:13:25] uh, he just loves the clinical. He loves the surgery. His implants are so good. He loves the surgery. [01:13:30] I don’t have it perfect at the practices, partly [01:13:35] because I’m probably spread and I love what we’re doing with elevate, [01:13:40] but I really respect both teams and I love watching a team [01:13:45] grow. I love when they can solve problems without me. I don’t need to be the [01:13:50] one saying yes all the time, and that’s a really nice moment when you can see them making decisions. Yeah, [01:13:55] it’s just doing simple things to make their day better. Like a coffee machine. We get a fruit bowl [01:14:00] delivered every week. I do lunches every now and again. I’ve learned this from people around me that have [01:14:05] fostered a culture, and not just about how to squeeze costs to right to the end. What can [01:14:10] I do to make your day better?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Nikhil Sethi: You know, you spend.

Payman Langroudi: Surprising [01:14:15] sometimes how what a simple thing like a coffee machine can [01:14:20] do for your team. And finding out what it is, what that thing is.

Nikhil Sethi: And [01:14:25] the happier the team are, the patients feel it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%.

Nikhil Sethi: I mean that Again [01:14:30] at the Essex practice. You know, it’s different in London because [01:14:35] there’s lots of excellent practices in the local vicinity. Square mile, then centre, is one of many very good practices. [01:14:40]

Payman Langroudi: I think what’s something dentists seem to forget sometimes here is that your [01:14:45] staff have a choice. Sometimes. Yeah, not the good old days. The [01:14:50] choice was to work as a nurse at my dental practice. Or I don’t know what [01:14:55] other choice. Go. Go work in an office somewhere or in a shop somewhere [01:15:00] or whatever. Yeah. These days people have options of working from home, [01:15:05] working for themselves, or influencer [01:15:10] work here or there. You know, like, you know, like my team, they [01:15:15] only come in two days a week. We’ve got some team in South Africa who I’ve never [01:15:20] met. Wow. Yeah. And you know, if you call enlightened, you’ve got a 50% chance of going through to South Africa, [01:15:25] or 50% chance of of going through to someone’s house at home. Yeah. Now, [01:15:30] just the fact that in a dental practice, all the humans have to turn [01:15:35] up every day and have to be presentable and make no mistakes. And [01:15:40] the risk that everyone’s carrying this always risk involved when there’s healthcare involved. Right. You’re [01:15:45] already asking a hell of a lot of these humans. Yeah. Compared to their friends. Like if [01:15:50] a friend of us might be, I don’t know, some some some person in marketing who has to only go in [01:15:55] two days a week, and the rest of the time can can work from home. That your nurse is [01:16:00] comparing herself to that person. Right. And so little kindnesses like, what could [01:16:05] I do to make your day better when you do have to come in and face all this risk and stress, make [01:16:10] all the difference, right?

Nikhil Sethi: I think if I’m being really honest, I think all of the people I [01:16:15] work with would say that perhaps I don’t always have enough time for them. Yeah. [01:16:20] I perhaps don’t perhaps have too many plates [01:16:25] spinning at one time to be able to have everything running perfectly. But I would like to [01:16:30] think that when all is said and done, everyone I’ve worked with would say that I was kind. [01:16:35] And it’s something I say to my son every night before bed, and it’s something I live by and [01:16:40] my my kind of three things that I say every night is be bold, be brave, be kind. And [01:16:45] that for me, when all is said and done, as long as they say that I [01:16:50] might not be the most financially intelligent, I may not be the best clinician. I may not be the best lecturer. [01:16:55] I may not be the most consistent at turning up at practices, but as long [01:17:00] as I’ve been kind, then I would have done a good job. Exactly what he said to help people feel [01:17:05] that it’s worth it to come in every day, when perhaps they could have a slightly cushier opportunity working [01:17:10] part time from home.

Payman Langroudi: But you know, if you find it easy to trust people, you [01:17:15] go so much further and you clearly do. Yeah, yeah.

Nikhil Sethi: Maybe it’s too much sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:17:20] it’s it’s better than micromanaging every move. Yeah. It’s better than, you know, some people I [01:17:25] remember I had one, one lady here, she’s her dad passed away in [01:17:30] the mourning process. Someone from the practice called up and said, uh, is [01:17:35] it okay if we don’t get the same hand soap for the toilet or [01:17:40] something? You know the hand secretary? Yeah, yeah. And because [01:17:45] her dad, in that moment, her dad had just passed away, she realised the craziness of [01:17:50] their calling her to check the hand soap situation. You know, because [01:17:55] she was being, you know, micromanaging every little move. Yeah. Too much. But [01:18:00] you obviously find it quite natural.

Nikhil Sethi: Oh, man. Like I said, it comes.

Payman Langroudi: Back to a little bit.

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah, [01:18:05] I like I said, I surround myself with good people and I trust them. And if things [01:18:10] don’t go right, we work on it. It’s not the end of the world. If I get something wrong, my team. [01:18:15] Don’t belittle me. Sanjana, don’t belittle me. If I’ve got a client. Where? Perhaps we didn’t [01:18:20] fill up enough numbers and of course gets cancelled and it’s put out [01:18:25] on a weekend where they could have been earning. They don’t go crazy at me. We just think, okay, where do we [01:18:30] go wrong on the Gantt chart? Where do we not confirm these things in time? What could we do better next time? Yeah, and that’s [01:18:35] the key, right? You know, no one’s more important than anyone else. Something [01:18:40] I’ve always believed in. We’re all have an important role to play, to keep the wheels turning. But it’s got [01:18:45] to be fun. It comes back to that. The minute I stop having fun, I’m. I will give it up. [01:18:50]

Payman Langroudi: Are you chasing you? Chasing fun?

Nikhil Sethi: No.

Payman Langroudi: You’re [01:18:55] chasing happiness.

Nikhil Sethi: I am happy. It’s really weird. I said this to my wife [01:19:00] last week and this goes sound really cheesy. I said, this is the first time in my [01:19:05] life, in the last year where I felt totally comfortable [01:19:10] in my own skin. Not like I was in my brother’s shadow or nothing like that. It’s just [01:19:15] I always felt like I had to put on a show to be someone I had to be, you know, Mr. Energy, I had to be the [01:19:20] best at composites. Composite had to be like the most diligent father would play this stuff and and [01:19:25] yeah, you’ve got to strive to be good at all of those things. But it comes back to centring yourself to [01:19:30] say, what? What do I need to make myself happy? And it’s my health, financially [01:19:35] secure in my head. My purpose is to be able to make a difference, not just to [01:19:40] my patients directly, but indirectly through helping thousands of dentists provide better patient outcomes. And [01:19:45] I just feel content in my own skin knowing that I feel that [01:19:50] I’ve got my right. I don’t feel like an imposter, that I am running a teaching academy. I [01:19:55] feel like I deserve to be doing this. Are we the best? I don’t know, do [01:20:00] I believe we can be? Yes. It’s something I say to my niece, always believe you can be the best at [01:20:05] anything.

Nikhil Sethi: But don’t be fool enough. Foolish enough to believe that you are. You’ve got to believe [01:20:10] you can be the best at anything. But don’t say. Still my father in law [01:20:15] says to me, don’t say still. You gotta keep moving. Yeah. He’s got an amazing outlook on life. [01:20:20] I love it so positive. So let go of the bad things. It’s something [01:20:25] a saying that Drew Shah taught me. When you see something and this is where I don’t know social media, sometimes [01:20:30] you see something that comes up and it pinches you. I wish I thought of that, I wish I did that. [01:20:35] It’s natural. Right? Yeah, but drew taught me how to reframe that. Rather than comparing yourself [01:20:40] to someone, be inspired by them. Just that simple reframing for me. [01:20:45] When I see someone that’s perhaps got a better, a better highlight reel of their course from the [01:20:50] weekend, I’m now thinking, do you know what? Hats off. That [01:20:55] was better than what we did. I need to work on what we can do to make that highlight reel better. How can I make the testimonials [01:21:00] more dynamic? Brilliant. Just that reframing has made it easier for me [01:21:05] to not feel crap about myself.

Payman Langroudi: Simple thing, simple thing.

Nikhil Sethi: I love that saying. [01:21:10] It’s beautiful. He taught me that five years ago, and I think that’s a big reason of why I’ve managed to stay positive in [01:21:15] a world of social media where you’re constantly comparing yourself to your friends and people that you don’t [01:21:20] even know. It’s nuts.

Payman Langroudi: What grinds your kids about dentistry? [01:21:25]

Nikhil Sethi: What does that mean?

Payman Langroudi: What pisses you off?

Nikhil Sethi: What annoys me?

Payman Langroudi: What kind [01:21:30] of trend pisses you off? Well.

Nikhil Sethi: I think. It’s [01:21:40] a tricky one. I built my career on composite, but [01:21:45] I think modern techniques are abusing the material. Some techniques were [01:21:50] just slapping loads of composite on teeth, which perhaps might not be the right thing to do. Could [01:21:55] it have been an ortho case with an edge bonding? Could it be a ceramic case? We’re seeing a lot of [01:22:00] courses out there that are teaching these techniques that are able [01:22:05] to show, let’s do 8 to 8 composites in three hours. Hashtag no drilling. And [01:22:10] that’s great. Hashtag £3,000 smile makeover. That’s fantastic. But [01:22:15] what is happening down the road? And that’s what worries me. Who’s going to pick up the pieces if things aren’t [01:22:20] quite done? Well, if the planning wasn’t quite right. How many cases have I seen where things weren’t planned [01:22:25] well by someone else? And I’m now having to quote the patient triple, quadruple, exponentially [01:22:30] to remove everything. Although ceramics. So what grinds my [01:22:35] gears, if I understand your question right, is people that are abusing [01:22:40] any modality without appropriate care and consideration [01:22:45] for the patient outcome and long term, rather than just do a small makeover in 20s. [01:22:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Nikhil Sethi: That’s not hating. I think some of these new technologies with like injection moulding, [01:22:55] I think they’re amazing. I think I’ve really enjoyed doing them in certain cases, [01:23:00] but as long as it’s well thought out and as long as the case is appropriate for it, if it [01:23:05] was my mouth and I could just wear some aligners to move things in the right position, reduce my deep [01:23:10] overbite, improve the function, and then just have composite added to the edges. I [01:23:15] would choose that ten times out of ten. But if I had lots of failing class three, class [01:23:20] four restorations and teeth that were misshapen triangular, I want ovoid. [01:23:25] Then I might consider something like composite veneers or ceramic veneers. In [01:23:30] that case, it might be the perfect option for me. It just depends on what comes your way.

Payman Langroudi: I think the [01:23:35] thing with with composite is very, very, very unforgiving in [01:23:40] in in the short term even totally, let alone the medium and long term. And [01:23:45] so there’s a degree of sort of obsession that you have to have [01:23:50] in getting it very right at the beginning if you want it [01:23:55] to last any period of time.

Nikhil Sethi: Got another one? Another one really grinds my gears. That pisses me off when [01:24:00] I see people doing posterior composite courses when they’re still teaching, to do the [01:24:05] most complex fissure pattern that you’ve ever seen in your life and put fissure stains in.

Payman Langroudi: What? Does [01:24:10] that bother you? Because no one can see it apart from you.

Nikhil Sethi: Well, I just think, why do we get caries [01:24:15] in the first place? Because bits of seeds get stuck into deep fissures. The patient can’t [01:24:20] clean it.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see, I see. As a food trap.

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah, but even like the complexities, if [01:24:25] you are searching that absolute perfection in form. Yeah. And [01:24:30] you are already operating at a really good level. Go for it. Let’s always prove better. But for the most [01:24:35] generation and most patients, most dentists, sorry. They just want to know how to isolate [01:24:40] good adhesion. What do we want from a composite? I want it to stick. I want it to look like a tooth. [01:24:45] I want to have good contact points. I want it to feel comfortable in the bite. I don’t want it to be sensitive. No [01:24:50] patient has ever come back to me and said, Nick, that disto palatal fissure. You did beautiful. [01:24:55] But I have had someone say, Nick, I’m getting food court there. Yeah. Nick, I can’t drink cold water. What have you done?

Payman Langroudi: No, [01:25:00] I get you right.

Nikhil Sethi: So I think, again, what grinds my gears is I’ve got no problem with beautiful dentistry. [01:25:05] I love it, and I’m still chasing that 5% myself. And I don’t think I’m anywhere [01:25:10] near where I need to be for me to be totally happy with what I can do. But [01:25:15] I just think that when we’re teaching a whole generation of dentists again, it should be [01:25:20] the foundations, the number of people that don’t know what bonding agent they use. What, like your [01:25:25] unit they’re using, what is the power of their like cure? What is the wavelength distribution?

Payman Langroudi: They ever tested it?

Nikhil Sethi: Have they [01:25:30] ever tested it? Does it change over time? Is a single LED or a multi LED more advantageous? [01:25:35] You know, all of these questions is something that we say and elevate. We want to create Michelin [01:25:40] star dentists. You need to understand your ingredients and your recipes. There’s a reason [01:25:45] why I go to Hakkasan. And every person in that room could order the exact same dish [01:25:50] and deliver with the same colour, same quality, same standard, same taste, same temperature. And the chef that designed [01:25:55] it is not even in the bloody room. That’s because everyone understands every single kink in that chain [01:26:00] where they source their ingredients and the recipes. So we’ve got to do the same in dentistry. We’ve [01:26:05] got to understand every single material we put in. If someone says, I need to [01:26:10] etch the enamel for 30s, put a bloody timer on. Don’t sit there in your head going, one [01:26:15] elephant, two elephant, three elephants. Back to basics kitchen time.

Payman Langroudi: Like interestingly, [01:26:20] read the instructions 100%. You know one thing Depeche does cover to [01:26:25] cover, reads the instructions on every single new material that he gets.

Nikhil Sethi: He’s so inquisitive, [01:26:30] I love it. I like the best. Depeche is on the council for Bard as well.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right. Yeah. [01:26:35]

Nikhil Sethi: And I love him because as experienced as he is, and he’s another one who’s not old. He’s younger than me, [01:26:40] but he’s been around the block. He feels like he’s been around forever.

Payman Langroudi: Because he’s got the older brothers.

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah. Same in a story. [01:26:45] We’ve both had amazing. But he’s been around forever. But when you question him on something new or when he’s got [01:26:50] something new, he’s so inquisitive. There’s no ego about him at all. I love people like that. [01:26:55] Uh, you know, I think of so many people that just come straight to the front of the room. They’re [01:27:00] writing notes like they’ve never been on a course before, and they’re some of the most incredible dentists I know. [01:27:05]

Payman Langroudi: And, know, you know, I know.

Nikhil Sethi: Always making notes.

Payman Langroudi: I wrote more notes at Mini Smile [01:27:10] Maker than anyone I’ve ever.

Nikhil Sethi: He came on our video course and he wrote loads all day.

Payman Langroudi: Right? Writing notes I love [01:27:15] it, I love it. That guy doesn’t need to know. It’s his humility, right? [01:27:20] To say I can still learn. Yeah.

Nikhil Sethi: Goes back to what I say to my niece. Always believe you can be the best. But don’t be foolish. [01:27:25]

Payman Langroudi: Foolish enough to do what grinds my gears. You see it a lot with the Italian dentists. Um, [01:27:30] where? Just imagine there’s one kind of stained upper right [01:27:35] central kind of with the interesting sort of pattern of of whatever [01:27:40] you want to call it, highlights and stay instead of, uh, bleaching everything [01:27:45] and then matching the upper left for the showing off, or [01:27:50] the fact that they can copy that, that stain, they’ll copy that stain in the, in the [01:27:55] restoration.

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah. It comes back to it comes back to those three [01:28:00] pillars. That is the what does the patient want. What’s the desirability, suitability, affordability? [01:28:05] And if, if, if that patient demands that we don’t do any whitening and they want anything [01:28:10] to be matched if they’re, you know, the the mirror test. So if you want to identify potential [01:28:15] patient demands, scale, you give them a mirror, you know, and you say if you could [01:28:20] change anything about your smile, what would it be? If they’re looking at the mirror from here and saying, I quit smoking recently, [01:28:25] wouldn’t mind them just brightening up a little bit. You know, I’m not saying you take your foot off the pedal, but, you know, chances are [01:28:30] they’re going to be fairly reasonable if they are like this and they’re saying, I don’t like this. People are actively saying to [01:28:35] me now, I don’t like the embrasure here. I don’t like a black triangle here. I’m like, whoa, what? Why [01:28:40] do you know these terms? This is what’s going on. Who taught you this? Right? But if they’re if they’re looking [01:28:45] like this, they might be the case where they might say, actually, I don’t want whitening. I love my natural anatomy. [01:28:50] I want you to be able to recreate that. So I don’t think that’s a lost art. I think it’s incredible. But it comes back [01:28:55] down to what does the patient want, what’s affordable, what’s suitable. And [01:29:00] it might be like in my hands. I’m not the most natural artistic dentist. I kind of group dentists [01:29:05] into two groups. Broadly, you’re either an artist or a milling machine, right? My [01:29:10] brother’s an artist. Depeche artist. I’m a bit more of a milling machine. I would rather have [01:29:15] excess composite and then have a shaping protocol on my head to get from A to Z, to shape it back to.

Payman Langroudi: A printer [01:29:20] or A or a miller. Correct.

Nikhil Sethi: That’s that’s the group I fall into. Yeah, I can [01:29:25] still do nice layered composites, but I’d prefer to just put a bioclear matrix band in injection, mould the whole thing [01:29:30] and then cut back. Mhm. That just is more predictable. The thing I’m most [01:29:35] happy about over the years is the composites have got better in terms of these body shades. So I’ve gone from [01:29:40] using five, six shades. I learned from Venini when I first qualified to now using [01:29:45] a maximum of two. A lot of the time just one. I’m in my happy place because for me, [01:29:50] layering was always a stumbling block for me. Man, it’s tricky and [01:29:55] that’s why I mentioned earlier about grinding my gears. I think we could be abusing [01:30:00] composite, but I love certain technologies like the smart fast injection moulding. I’m able to treat [01:30:05] six teeth that need shape changes and wear and get a really nice, predictable result with [01:30:10] a stent that I couldn’t do freehand in the right case where [01:30:15] it’s suitable. This technology and the digital workflows are unbelievable. They’re making [01:30:20] milling machines like me look better. The artists will always be the artist [01:30:25] they can, like. Santa’s, will look at anything and be able to recreate it. It’s really annoying. He was good at endos, good at perio, [01:30:30] bloody good at everything. I’m good. But I’m more [01:30:35] of a give me more. Let me cut down to make it less type of dentist than an artist. [01:30:40]

Payman Langroudi: Have you seen Kostas? And so they’re, they’re, um, injection moulding.

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah. We do something [01:30:45] really similar. Yeah. They’re great. Kostas used to do some days for us on the diploma. Uh, just got [01:30:50] busy and schedules conflicts, but great guy as well. Uh, Amit, our partner does a lot of injection [01:30:55] moulding cases. Really, really nice work. Um, you know, I [01:31:00] think we’ve got to move with the times, with digital workflows. You said to me earlier. [01:31:05] I showed me your lab. You said now only 40% are selling impressions, 6% [01:31:10] now scanning. I reckon that’s going to get even less and less as time goes on.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Even [01:31:15] two years ago, it was the other way around. So. So it’s, you know, it’s speeding through.

Nikhil Sethi: Let me [01:31:20] ask you from a lab perspective, when you’re getting it, what gives you a better result, [01:31:25] a physical silicone impression or the scan you’re getting a better.

Payman Langroudi: Result [01:31:30] for the retention of the trade. Yeah, I still like stone. [01:31:35] I still like stone. Um, the problem with it is it’s it’s not [01:31:40] a fight that I’m ever going to win because it’s getting less and less and less less. But stone is gas permeable. [01:31:45] And, you know, we’re in the we’re in the business of forcing air through these models. [01:31:50] And resin isn’t gas permeable. Um, I haven’t found one that is yet. So [01:31:55] that’s the main issue. It just doesn’t it just doesn’t sort of form as tightly on the plastic [01:32:00] as it does on stone.

Nikhil Sethi: And I kind of angled that question because I knew you were going to say that, [01:32:05] because a lot of young dentists now are qualifying thinking that scanning is more accurate [01:32:10] than impressions. Now, at some point, this conversation.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not sure about the accuracy. I mean, the accuracy maybe, maybe, [01:32:15] maybe it is. I have no idea.

Nikhil Sethi: Or they certainly think they can get. It’s easier to scan. I [01:32:20] love scanning, I wouldn’t go back to impressions. But the fallacy is you need to be more [01:32:25] careful with scanning than you do with impressions. For example, if you’re prepping a tooth, I [01:32:30] need to be even more diligent with my double retraction cord technique. I can’t just say [01:32:35] I’ll scan it because with a physical impression, it can push tissue out the way, and the impression material [01:32:40] will capture that margin by hook or crook, of course. Whereas with a scan, if my gum is flopped over that margin, [01:32:45] the scan is not going to pick it up. So I always do diligently my double retraction [01:32:50] cord technique. Thin cord.

Payman Langroudi: What’s amazing about scanners that in my day when I was a dentist, that [01:32:55] didn’t exist, right? That just the fact that you can show the patient their mouth from [01:33:00] different angles and, you know, take the bite, show them the bite, show them the teeth, [01:33:05] they zoom in, zoom out. You know, it’s like a intraoral camera on bloody steroids. [01:33:10] You love that.

Nikhil Sethi: You’ve segued into my third what [01:33:15] grinds my gears in dentistry? And that’s when delegates say to us, oh, yeah, but you’re in [01:33:20] central London, Nick. You can do work like that. You know, you’ll get that patient to pay [01:33:25] for your private composite or your crown, where I am in the middle of Basildon or whatever. I’m never [01:33:30] going to get that. I’m like, okay, walk me through your process. Oh, well, you [01:33:35] know, I’ve got 20 minutes for an exam. I’ll just sell the patient. This is my options private, this amalgam that [01:33:40] I was like, okay. And, you know, when was the last time you went to a shop and bought something without seeing [01:33:45] it first or never? I was like, so why would your patient electively [01:33:50] choose a private option if they can’t see or at least understand what [01:33:55] problem is. If they’re getting no pain from an issue and suddenly you’re telling them to spend 200, 300, one, [01:34:00] 50, whatever it is. How can they suddenly gone are the days where people just believe [01:34:05] you because you’re a doctor, sahib. Right. Those days are. And thankfully, those days are gone. Yeah. Whereas digital [01:34:10] scanning. My word. You take a scan, pop open the occlusal views, and the first [01:34:15] thing the patient says. What’s that? Well, I’m glad you pointed to that, because now I can relate it to the x ray. Now I [01:34:20] can communicate with you. So I say even for an exam book, an [01:34:25] extra few minutes scan. Yeah. Every patient.

Payman Langroudi: But you see, I mean it’s I was, I was, [01:34:30] I was talking to my wife about it. She’s at a Bupa practice. They have a scanner, but [01:34:35] it’s one. Yeah. Every dentist needs a scanner ideally. [01:34:40] And and when you’re thinking from this perspective, then for every exam you need [01:34:45] a scan, every exam.

Nikhil Sethi: I think every new patient needs a scan. If you [01:34:50] don’t have a scanner, at least take a quick occlusal photo. And where we changed is actually we used to take photos [01:34:55] and not necessarily a scan on the first visit, but we love dental photos. Patients find [01:35:00] it gross because it looks a bit too salivary and flaky, and we forget all of that. [01:35:05] And we’re seeing potential lovely work that we could do. Whereas a scan doesn’t [01:35:10] feel as real. It’s cartoon. It’s much less likely to go air, [01:35:15] and in fact they’re blown away by it. So that allows you to open that conversation of [01:35:20] restorations that are failing even though they’re not hurting. Even if the patient doesn’t [01:35:25] go ahead now, at least you’ve educated them into what’s going wrong in their mouth, and you’ve then [01:35:30] taught them something that no other clinician has done. And when they are ready to commit, either because [01:35:35] it’s causing symptoms or they suddenly reflect and say, right, I better go ahead. There’s only one person they’re coming back to, [01:35:40] they’re coming back to you. And then it doesn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Matter where you say to the patient, uh, before [01:35:45] you say anything, you say, tell me what you see.

Nikhil Sethi: I like it. No, [01:35:50] I haven’t done that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a beautiful car, you know.

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He told me that. I’m [01:35:55] sure they call it some sort of co-diagnosis or whatever. Yeah, it’s such a brilliant idea because, [01:36:00] you know, the that that crappy amalgam. Yeah. [01:36:05] Every patient is going to point to that crappy amalgam. Yeah. Patient’s going to say that that and that [01:36:10] and you’ll say, yeah, you’re right. There’s that, that and that. And by the way, the bite and this [01:36:15] and that, and it’s sort of an ownership to it.

Nikhil Sethi: And even like when you’ve got a couple of chips [01:36:20] on front teeth and being able to show them the wear on the canines and why it’s not just one tooth you need to restore. [01:36:25] Yeah. And it’s helping patients understand that you’re not just that money grabbing dentist. There’s a reason [01:36:30] why you need to treat six teeth. There’s a reason why you need aligners first.

Payman Langroudi: You know, it goes back to [01:36:35] you said about how do you decide whether it’s direct or indirect? Um, [01:36:40] on lay or filling? Yeah. When you’ve got a way of assessing [01:36:45] that because let’s say you came on your course and learned there are these factors. There’s the wall width, [01:36:50] there’s the patient’s, you know, erosive state, whatever it is. Yeah. When you’re [01:36:55] confident about the reason why you’re going for the indirect.

Nikhil Sethi: They [01:37:00] feel.

Payman Langroudi: It, they feel it.

Nikhil Sethi: They feel.

Payman Langroudi: It. You’re confident about it. Yeah. Yeah there’s a big difference. [01:37:05] It’s not. And young learners get this wrong a lot. Yeah. They say something like I don’t know we’ve got [01:37:10] the onl or we’ve got the filling.

Nikhil Sethi: They’ll read out the whole list of pros and cons.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:37:15] And it’s almost like it’s your choice. It’s patient’s choice in a way. Yeah. And I, [01:37:20] I don’t know if you’ve ever been in a situation with a lawyer. The lawyer might say, look, there are these three ways we could [01:37:25] go. Yeah. And the right lawyer, the good lawyer, the one that, you know, you rely on [01:37:30] over the years, you say, which one would you do? Yeah. And he’ll say, well, I reckon this [01:37:35] one. Yeah. You must give an opinion. You got to give an opinion. It’s not only. Here [01:37:40] are the five choices you decide. Here are the five choices. If it was me, I’d take toys for, [01:37:45] you know, that’s that’s. For these reasons. And now you decide it’s. [01:37:50]

Nikhil Sethi: It’s practising to. Understand your communication skills, how we can leverage [01:37:55] technology such as scanning, how we understand our evidence base and treatment planning, and [01:38:00] how we’ve applied ourselves from learning our hand skills. How have we trained our hands? These all things have [01:38:05] to be synergistic. Another beautiful use of scanning technology is if I’m doing a quadrant of preps, I’m doing 4 or 5 [01:38:10] preps. I’ll get all my core fillings done, my preps done, and then I’ll take [01:38:15] the rubber dam off. I’ll take a quick check scan and I’ll fire it across to Eva. And I would have already said to Eva that [01:38:20] morning either, by the way, at about 230, I’m going to ping you over a check scan. While [01:38:25] that’s sending, I’m going to start getting all my retraction cords in. Do me a favour. Can you just check if I’ve left any undercuts [01:38:30] or if I’ve under-prepared you? Anyway, you’ve got ten minutes while I put the cords in. She will then take screenshots [01:38:35] on her phone and say under prepared here, possible undercut here. You’ve only given me this space here. [01:38:40] So by the time I’ve got my chords in, I’ve got my WhatsApp pinging. Flipping. [01:38:45] Amazing patients still numb. All right. Wicked. Let’s correct it. Bang bang bang bang. Then [01:38:50] do my double core technique. Take my final scan. I’ve got one more shot to say. [01:38:55] Yep. Nick. Well done. I can then professionalise. Otherwise, what’s the alternative? I get a phone call. [01:39:00]

Nikhil Sethi: I get a phone call a week later on. Nick, I’ve got an undercut here. Oh, crap. That patient was awkward. [01:39:05] Anyway. Only opens 35mm. I’ve got to get them back. Another ID block, another this [01:39:10] or that. Dismantle all of those restorations. Rip cord. This is [01:39:15] not a 20 minute appointment pay. I haven’t factored that in my treatment plan, let alone the patient [01:39:20] discomfort and issues and communication. The fact it’s a poor patient journey. What happens to my hourly rate? It [01:39:25] tanks. There you go. And even just being able to [01:39:30] have that direct communication with things like using Exocad in the lab, showing me the veneers [01:39:35] a week before they arrive in the initial bake stage, before they do all the glossy [01:39:40] stuff afterwards. Beautiful. Because if I don’t like something, we can deal with it. What is the point of me [01:39:45] checking labwork when the patient’s sitting downstairs? What am I going to do? You’re either going to compromise or fit it, [01:39:50] or you’re going to turn the patient away. No one wins. And the problem with that is it’s like [01:39:55] if you’re buying a car and you’re buying a brand new Volkswagen Golf, if you go to see the golf [01:40:00] on the day, you’re super excited. It’s your first car, you’re 18 years old or 20 years old, whatever. You go round the golf, you’re buzzing. [01:40:05] You turn on the key, you’re about to drive off.

Nikhil Sethi: Someone jumps in front and say, oh, sorry, we’ve just seen that the light [01:40:10] isn’t right. Sorry you can’t leave with the golf today. Come back in two weeks and we’ll sort it out. Number [01:40:15] one, I’m gutted, but number two, I’m going to come back with a magnifying glass next time. And I’m [01:40:20] going to look at every other single thing wrong with that golf. And I’m going to pick all the flaws. Same [01:40:25] thing. So having either on standby for multiple units. Number [01:40:30] one, I’m not getting the patient back. Number two, as part of my anterior workflows, [01:40:35] if we’re doing one, two, three teeth and we’re doing ceramics. I build in my treatment [01:40:40] plan, a prep and a depending. If it’s very [01:40:45] inflamed gums, I might have a prep and temp, then a scan, then a try in, then a fit. [01:40:50] If the gums are great, I’ll just do a prep try and fit. So on the plan. Psychologically, the patient [01:40:55] knows they’re coming in to test. They’re not coming in to walk away. This is [01:41:00] the mistake we make because then that way they know that they’re coming in to [01:41:05] see the colour. Right? Is this that whatever. Now, I typically tend to book a little bit longer than I need, and I typically book it [01:41:10] towards the end of my session. If it’s a slam dunk, which does sometimes happen on a single central, [01:41:15] I’m not going to send them away.

Nikhil Sethi: I’m going to fit the restoration. And then something beautiful happens. Number [01:41:20] one, they think you’re a genius. Where it’s the lab really that owes the credit. But number two, because I’ve now saved myself [01:41:25] an hour in my diary, I can do something incredible. I can be the one clinician that quoted [01:41:30] the patient. I don’t know, let’s say £1,500. I can say to them, do you know what, John? I [01:41:35] love this case. If you’re happy, just do me a testimonial and a Google review. I’m going to knock off £200. [01:41:40] Um, just because I’m so buzzing about this case. And can I use this as a teaching case? Whoa. [01:41:45] Hang about. I’ve got a beautiful restoration. I [01:41:50] can pay £200 less, and all I’ve got to do is just shout about how much I love this practice anyway. [01:41:55] Yeah. Cool. Sign me up. That’s great. Psychologically, everyone wins. [01:42:00] Whereas what happens the other way? You try in a crown, you’ve got a fit visit doesn’t fit. I’ll [01:42:05] actually. Can you pay me another £300? You can’t do that. You [01:42:10] can’t do that. So everyone loses. Patient gets more picky. Your hourly rate tanks your principle [01:42:15] saying what you’re doing, you’re not earning enough, and then you end up using a cheaper lab, constricting your time frames. You’re just going [01:42:20] to whiz factory. Yeah. Whereas slow down. Build in those [01:42:25] checkpoints.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Nikhil Sethi: And the last thing I think when it comes to when you’ve then got larger [01:42:30] cases, is it is impossible to see someone that needs [01:42:35] a lot of work done and see them for 15 minutes and have a comprehensive plan from A to Z. [01:42:40] Not possible. So go back to basics. For anyone out there, go back to basics. [01:42:45] Plan the stabilisation. We can do that with our eyes closed. Hygiene. Perio referral. Endo [01:42:50] extirpations basic composite fillings. Get them caries stable. [01:42:55] And there’s something I learned from one of the most incredible clinicians who spoke at Bard. Stefano [01:43:00] Grazzi. He was the closing session. He said at certain points you have checkpoints, [01:43:05] and once you’ve ticked off that you see them again like a new patient. So see them for a [01:43:10] full hour and treat them brand new. Discuss their demands rediscuss [01:43:15] their finances and their suitability because that might have changed. They might come in saying, I’m [01:43:20] not that bothered about how it looks, but as they start to see how nice your work is, they might think they want more. But [01:43:25] also then now caries are stable, the gums are healthy. I’m not seeing all the gunk. I can now look at the occlusion [01:43:30] molar class. Incisal class. Deep bite. I can now see. Is this an edge bonding case or [01:43:35] an ortho case?

Payman Langroudi: It’s a brilliant point. It’s a brilliant point. The wrappers are in place now.

Nikhil Sethi: Totally. [01:43:40] And if it needs ortho, I discuss with Elaine. Do we need to do any pre ortho restorative? Does [01:43:45] Elaine want me to do so. For example where case where the cingulum is shot. And we’ve got where right into [01:43:50] almost to pulp. And I say to Elaine or any ortho can you reduce the [01:43:55] bite. That’s so subjective. What does that mean, reduce the bite. Whereas if I [01:44:00] can actually say to my lab, look, this is going to be really hard for you either, but ignore the occlusion. Just give me a nice flat [01:44:05] cingulum so I can do my composite injection moulding. The bite is going to be totally off. And [01:44:10] now I say to Elaine, right, Elaine, I’ve made cingulum for you. Now move everything until the lower teeth touch [01:44:15] the cingulum. I’ve given her an endpoint, and at the end of ortho we do a new patient assessment. Again. [01:44:20] We start again. Are they happy with that aesthetics, or do they now want to go for the rock star look [01:44:25] and then get the ceramic veneers done? So I’ve had three new patient assessments.

Payman Langroudi: Mints [01:44:30] within the same patient.

Nikhil Sethi: So it’s chopped up that full mouth rehab into manageable sections. And [01:44:35] suddenly I’m not like Riaz, where I can just say, Riaz can look at a case and just instantly he’s [01:44:40] got the whole map in his head. I’m not as academically smart as he is, but [01:44:45] if I break it down, I can do a case. I think as good as [01:44:50] anyone. Because I’ve done it in my each stage of my comfort zone. Yeah. And [01:44:55] again, it comes back to at each checkpoint because I understand what I want. If I do [01:45:00] refer to Sanj for an implant or Elaine for ortho or another specialist, my [01:45:05] specialist work for me, I’m not a slave just because their guru sahib specialist? [01:45:10] No, I’ve sent a patient to you. They’re under my care. So Elaine knows [01:45:15] she ain’t going to be on that case until I’ve reviewed it. So she’ll review. She’ll let me review the case [01:45:20] with the attachments on, and then I’ll say, actually, can you just do a bit more for me so I can go [01:45:25] totally. No prep on this case. Great. What’s the point of Debonding sending to me? And [01:45:30] if I’ve not got enough space? Well, then you’re going to compromise. Then you are going to cut that tooth down. [01:45:35] So the specialists are part of my extended team. I’m not a slave [01:45:40] to them. And that’s the whole ethos wrapped up. And from years of learning, breaking [01:45:45] it down into small pieces, evidence based plans [01:45:50] around patients affordability, suitability and keep checking their desirability because [01:45:55] that changes over time.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting man. You know, you’ve you’ve spoken to so many experts, [01:46:00] watch so many great lectures and all that and, you know, talk to loads [01:46:05] of specialists. Yeah, all these high level clinicians. It’s [01:46:10] amazing how much comes back down to do [01:46:15] the basics correctly.

Nikhil Sethi: Totally.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Because in dentistry errors [01:46:20] compound on each other. It’s something that could be very small, something [01:46:25] as irrelevant as the alternate for a bleaching tray. Yeah, [01:46:30] that makes now the tray worse that now we get sensitivity. There’s something that’s just bleaching. [01:46:35] Yeah. Let alone these massive plans you’re talking about. And everyone. You [01:46:40] know what grinds my gears a bit? Yeah, is everyone’s looking for hacks all the time. [01:46:45] Cheat codes? Yeah. How do I miss a step rather than I just do [01:46:50] the bits correctly, do the steps correctly. You know, that’s.

Nikhil Sethi: And even now I’m learning in terms of [01:46:55] operating a business. It comes back to basics with that as well. Understand your costs. [01:47:00] That’s what I’m trying to really grasp at the moment. You know, it’s that old saying, you know, [01:47:05] count the pennies. You know, make sure you know where things are leaking. What can you do? What can you do better [01:47:10] to make the end? It’s not just how much money you’re getting in at the top. What does it equate to once all [01:47:15] is said and done? Yeah, because sometimes it’s not as rosy as you think we’ve done. Course we think, oh, wicked. We’re [01:47:20] taking 20 grand this weekend. By the time we’ve put the calculator out, you’re thinking, oh, hang about. I [01:47:25] should have just.

Payman Langroudi: Gone with courses. The better the courses, the less money you make. Because, [01:47:30] you know, things cost money. Stuff costs money. Good food costs money. You know, good teachers [01:47:35] cost money. Yeah, good venues cost money. And it’s one of those things that you want [01:47:40] the best, best course AV good. Av costs money.

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah, totally. And even, like the social [01:47:45] element, we never skimp on that. Like, I’m not saying we go clubbing because that’s not like I’m not cool like that, but we [01:47:50] all book banging restaurants. Yeah, we went to Gaucho for the recent diploma dinner. We went to San Carlo [01:47:55] in Manchester. I want to make people feel special on that weekend. Yeah, dentistry’s hard enough. [01:48:00] I want to make people when they come to our courses. I want to make them feel special for that weekend. [01:48:05] Again, it comes back to I want to enjoy myself as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Nikhil Sethi: Me too. What is the point of me dishing [01:48:10] out? I once went on a course that I was asked to go on and mate at lunchtime. [01:48:15] I won’t say who. They paid me for my time. They handed out like. Like [01:48:20] sandwiches and clingfilm feel a little Tropicana orange juice, right? [01:48:25] I remember thinking, wow, like I’ve never seen that before. I’m not saying [01:48:30] you need, you know, hakkasan, but people remember I listened to Stephen Bartlett. [01:48:35] I love listening to his podcast, and I listened to him on Jemmy Fallon’s show recently. And there’s some brilliant things he [01:48:40] said in that if you haven’t seen it, watch it. Only a 15 minute interview. And he said, people always remember the [01:48:45] peak of the experience and the end of an experience.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Nikhil Sethi: And I love that saying. So we’ve kind of done [01:48:50] that without realising it. We make sure we make a big song and dance about the awards at the end of the diploma, you know, like maybe [01:48:55] this is a big moment. You’ve finished. We do a really nice dinner, we have a great social, um, [01:49:00] and also really understand, like even for our lecturers, [01:49:05] making sure we know enough about them to make them feel special, make sure we can get the setup as clean as we can [01:49:10] for them. Do I know what bottle of wine Rob likes? What restaurants he like? Let’s just choose something to make sure [01:49:15] that they’re giving up their time. They could earn X amount of thousand pounds whether they come on my course or [01:49:20] someone else’s course. I want to make sure next year I’m first in their diary. So if you ask what am I chasing? [01:49:25] I’m chasing to make people feel special. And I want to make sure that people around me [01:49:30] always want to work with us because they know that we’re going to give them one heck of a good time.

Payman Langroudi: When [01:49:35] you think of mistakes.

Nikhil Sethi: Are.

Payman Langroudi: Mistakes. What [01:49:40] mistakes come to mind?

Nikhil Sethi: Clinical?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Let’s start there. [01:49:45]

Nikhil Sethi: Start with clinical.

Payman Langroudi: Yep.

Nikhil Sethi: Mate. You name it. I’ve had a [01:49:50] case where I must have been two years in, and I’d been on a composite [01:49:55] course, and there was loads of failing class four composites, inflamed gums. And [01:50:00] I thought I was the man. Just about managed to isolate it, so I thought got the composites out. [01:50:05] Didn’t even think about the shapes. Triangular shaped, teeth black. I look back now and I see it straight away. Black triangles, [01:50:10] triangular shaped teeth, inflamed gums. Not suitable. Should have been a pulse stabilisation process. [01:50:15] But, you know, beating my chest. I know how to do composite. Built the whole thing up in composite. Halfway through, [01:50:20] blood started leaking through the rubber dam.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Nikhil Sethi: I’m there trying to wash dry rebond [01:50:25] at least 4 or 5 times. I’m sweating me. I’m profusely sweating. Get the rubber dam [01:50:30] off. Sit the patient up in the heat of the moment, I forgot to. I always check whatever’s in [01:50:35] the syringe when the nurse gives it to me. Not because I don’t trust them. I think we have certain checkpoints you have to.

Payman Langroudi: Which.

Nikhil Sethi: Syringe? So computers [01:50:40] didn’t realise accidentally. I was doing, like [01:50:45] an A2 case, and I’d been given one syringe of, like a bcl one of them. It happens. No [01:50:50] blame, you know, we’ve got to check this stuff before. I should have been involved in the setup before, so one [01:50:55] was totally different to the other. The gums are bleeding, one tooth still looks triangular, the other tooth [01:51:00] now looks square. Oh my God, I’ve charged the patient. I think it was like £800 at the time before, which is the most I’ve [01:51:05] ever charged. The patient started crying. Oh man. I just [01:51:10] felt myself like I’m not exactly the biggest person in the world. But I felt tiny got [01:51:15] worse and worse. Us. Um, email of complaint came in. Ah, this is this where it [01:51:20] hurts? Dear Sanjay. Not dear Nick. Dear Sanjay. I just want to say I’ve been a patient [01:51:25] at this practice for, at the time, seven years. Um. And I’ve always loved your care of work. I appreciate [01:51:30] your trying to get your brother’s diaries busy now that he’s working for you, but I don’t think he’s [01:51:35] at the level of where he should be to be working at your prestigious Square Mile dental centre.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Nikhil Sethi: Can [01:51:40] you imagine? Yeah. Sounds just like me. What went wrong there? [01:51:45] I showed him the pictures and he just stopped. And he was like, dude, that’s terrible. But he’s like, okay, [01:51:50] cool. Let’s let’s work through this. Got the patient back in, had a discussion, [01:51:55] and obviously she was distraught. But because I think we handled [01:52:00] the conversation fairly well. She agreed for me to rectify the situation. [01:52:05] Sanjay really hammered me. Walk me through my plan. I took the composites off, ran into [01:52:10] after sending them to the hygiene twice, which I paid for on my own time to get the gums under under [01:52:15] control. She then saw the benefit of beautiful gums, nice and pink, not bleeding. Breath felt better. All [01:52:20] of the basics. We then did what you said. We whitened them. So I’m not trying to match 50 different [01:52:25] shades. Dismantled the composites. I then did my base composites [01:52:30] to get one shade, just to get them looking okay with [01:52:35] a view that over the next year or two, we could consider ceramics. At the time, [01:52:40] either with Sanjay because I wasn’t ready to do ceramics at the time, or if I was [01:52:45] ready, we’ll do it later. So we managed to recover it.

Nikhil Sethi: I had to spend a lot of my own time to [01:52:50] get her to that point. No problem. This is the other thing. I hear so many cases of people having [01:52:55] arguments with patients about not repairing things, than they’ve gone wrong with [01:53:00] me. I’d rather have a good solid charging process, which I’m better at now. I never used to charge enough before. I [01:53:05] didn’t value myself enough and account for the fact that 2 or 3 cases a year are going to go belly up, [01:53:10] and you’ve got to just do it, swallow it, and move on. So anyway, the case was a nightmare [01:53:15] until that point where we managed to then go back to basics. As we’ve said, get the hygiene under [01:53:20] control, get the whitening done, reduce the variability in colours, stick to a single shade for [01:53:25] now body shade rather than five different layers. Get the basics right. Go back. I did a I actually, [01:53:30] I think it was when I came and did. Um, it was either maybe a bit before that. I learnt line angles, [01:53:35] I learnt shapes, then I was able to give her something that looked a bit more like a coherent [01:53:40] smile.

Payman Langroudi: When you rescued it. Well, by even she’s allowing [01:53:45] you to, to fix it, you know.

Nikhil Sethi: And and but but I tell you, I’ve never felt worse. I [01:53:50] felt I felt terrible, mate. I felt terrible from it.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [01:53:55] the big learning point on that one?

Nikhil Sethi: Treatment planning, attention [01:54:00] to detail. With my nurse on setup, we are not engaging [01:54:05] our support team anywhere near what we should. You know you’re talking. You [01:54:10] come back to what you said. Why? Why should I have to come into work every day when my colleagues working from home, or [01:54:15] I need to make sure they’re energised, I need to make sure they feel good working with me. I need to train them. If I’ve been on a course, [01:54:20] rather than suddenly say, right now, I’m going to need this instrument, this instrument, this instrument, then I think, well, I’m [01:54:25] not getting paid any more for this. I’ve seen your prices go up. What about my prices?

Payman Langroudi: Gingival [01:54:30] condition.

Nikhil Sethi: Totally.

Payman Langroudi: Before going ahead with anything like that.

Nikhil Sethi: Involve hygiene team set [01:54:35] up processes with the nurse. My nurse has got the power over me when it comes to timings, so she’s got the kitchen [01:54:40] timer that we’ve got when it comes to etching. Once we’ve etched the enamel, if I even try and [01:54:45] get my 3 in 1 close to that tooth before 30s, my nurse will kick me. She will then say okay, 30. [01:54:50] Then we start washing. We split the load. We enjoy it together.

Payman Langroudi: Basics the. [01:54:55]

Nikhil Sethi: Basics. Understanding tooth shapes, understanding my result [01:55:00] rather than just going gung ho. Dismantling totally understanding what shapes do [01:55:05] I want to achieve? Yeah, what do I need to be able to recreate the show? Am I using the right matrix? [01:55:10] Am I going to get an oval shaped central incisor using a mylar strip? Nope, not going to. [01:55:15] So what matrix brand is appropriate? Is it a sectional? Is it a bioclear? There’s a whole host of things, [01:55:20] but I need to understand my final end point in mind and work backwards. [01:55:25] Set up with my nurse basic treatment planning. And like we said [01:55:30] earlier, understanding every single material and instrument I’m going to use to the nth [01:55:35] degree to reduce the variables. Do I get every case perfect? No. I had a case [01:55:40] three weeks ago where I got the shade. Didn’t quite get the perfect blend on a class four. So [01:55:45] I’ve had to get them back, cut back, relay the surface. Come on. So what, I have [01:55:50] failures. It’s all good.

Payman Langroudi: Nice.

Nikhil Sethi: But it’s not the same failure every [01:55:55] time. Yeah, yeah. The typical same new mistakes, but I understand I was trying a new [01:56:00] composite and I didn’t quite get the opacity right. I’m not beating myself up [01:56:05] about it now. We swallow the cost. Get the patient back in my time and we do it again. It’s all good.

Payman Langroudi: Important, [01:56:10] important. Put things right. I think we’ve come to the [01:56:15] end of our time, unfortunately, because they’re going to start vacuuming in a second outside. It’s been a [01:56:20] massive pleasure, massive pleasure. I really learned a lot from your mindset. Brilliant mindset. [01:56:25]

Nikhil Sethi: And thank you. Congratulations for all that you’ve done. I love listening to the podcast, always inspiring and [01:56:30] your longevity in the game, buddy. I mean, that’s, uh, your longevity in the game and your dedication. [01:56:35]

Payman Langroudi: Since the last port.

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah, no.

Payman Langroudi: Congratulations to you, amazing man.

Nikhil Sethi: And thanks for.

Payman Langroudi: Really the [01:56:40] elevate thing. Massively impressive. Massively impressive in a short space of time, man. Short [01:56:45] space of time. You should really like, you know, think I know how you know, I’ve discussed this [01:56:50] before about, um, being being happy with what you’ve achieved and progress, [01:56:55] you know, contentment and progress, the kind of intention with each other. But you should [01:57:00] stop and smell the roses and say, hey, we’ve done really well, done really well for.

Nikhil Sethi: Myself, I’m never quite [01:57:05] happy with kind of what we’ve got. I’ve always want to be better, but I’m. Yeah, but I’m very grateful. [01:57:10] And thank you so much.

Payman Langroudi: Good luck with the kids.

Nikhil Sethi: Oh, yeah man, I’m going to go back and play with trains and play [01:57:15] and make a mess of the flat. Thanks, buddy.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll see you at bars.

Nikhil Sethi: Yeah, legit.

[VOICE]: This [01:57:20] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where [01:57:25] you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:57:30] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav [01:57:35] Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have [01:57:40] listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking [01:57:45] through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got [01:57:50] some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And [01:57:55] if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you [01:58:00] so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] enlightened online training to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time. Whitening underwhelms. Try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

This [00:00:25] is Dental. Leaders. The podcast where you [00:00:30] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:40] Solanki.

It gives me great pleasure to welcome Randeep Singh Gill [00:00:45] onto the podcast. Randeep is a young dentist whose career was cut [00:00:50] short by a neck issue. Right neck, [00:00:55] neck injury for that matter, slipped disc, a slipped disc and who kind of pivoted [00:01:00] into software for dentists. And at the beginning of that [00:01:05] interesting journey, sort of AI powered software for dentists. Lovely to have you, buddy.

Thank [00:01:10] you. Thanks for having me. Payman.

So, Randy, just tell us, where [00:01:15] were you before this happened? Like what? Which dentist were [00:01:20] you? Were you associate?

Yeah. So, I mean, I’ve been a long time associate. [00:01:25] I, um, qualified from King’s in 2009, did my PhD in Essex, [00:01:30] and kind of stayed in the same practice there for about five years. Um, and [00:01:35] then I decided, you know, I wanted to do a little bit more when on a restorative course. [00:01:40] Uh, and then went into private practice. So I’ve been, uh. Well, I was in private practice, [00:01:45] really, from about 2014, uh, until about a few weeks ago. So, [00:01:50] yeah, that’s that’s kind of my dental journey. It’s been. Yeah, I’ve been an associate, um, a long time. The practice that [00:01:55] I’ve been at, I’ve been there for 11.5 half years. So, um. Yeah. Seen it, seen it change quite a bit. [00:02:00] And, um.

And what? General dentist.

General dentist. Um, very much kind of [00:02:05] digital focussed. I mean, my, my kind of, I would say speciality was kind of cerec [00:02:10] crown. That was, I was really passionate about that and kind of got it down to a T in terms of getting a [00:02:15] crown done from start to finish. Yeah. Um, so yeah, digital dentistry really, um, really [00:02:20] kind of, um, turned me on, in fact. In fact, I loved anything digital.

And [00:02:25] you’re always interested in software and.

Yeah, I think I’ve always had a love [00:02:30] of tech. I’ve always had a love of tech. I would say, you know, um, dentistry has been my profession and, [00:02:35] um, I’ve loved every minute of it. But my kind of first love was always computers [00:02:40] and tech. I mean, I remember back as a kid, you know, when the internet was first coming in and you had these kind of analogue [00:02:45] modems and routers that you had to plug in, um, and kind of taken apart computers, putting [00:02:50] them in and messing around with the software. So I’ve always had this kind of techie, techie kind of, um, [00:02:55] outlook. And I’ve always enjoyed that.

And so do you remember wanting to go into that and [00:03:00] being pushed into dentistry?

Yeah. Well I mean as I said, it was always something I was interested in in [00:03:05] terms of computers, but back then it was something considered quite risky and quite new. [00:03:10] I mean, you know, things like Amazon will only a few years old. And I remember when we, [00:03:15] um, in our school, we, we got like the first ever course that was opened. That was [00:03:20] an A-level course actually on computing. And I was doing three sciences and I wanted to convert to that. [00:03:25] And it was all seen as very, very high risk, um.

Compared to dentistry.

Compared to dentistry. [00:03:30] So yeah. And I think, you know, coming from kind of an Asian background where a lot of us [00:03:35] are kind of we’re not told to encourage to go into something stable [00:03:40] and secure, like medicine, dentistry, law, accounting. So, yeah, I mean, I did [00:03:45] some work experience in, in medical practice, dental practices, uh, and then and I [00:03:50] was like, yeah, I know, let’s go with dentistry just because I like the hands on aspect. I [00:03:55] like the aspect as well that you were a little bit more, um, you know, autonomous [00:04:00] in terms of it’s more of a business as well. You could kind of grow that side of things. Um, and there [00:04:05] was a lot of tech in it as well, so I did, I did really, um, you know, that that my path then took me into dentistry. [00:04:10]

So the first time that the neck complaint became a complaint was [00:04:15] how many years after you qualified?

Oh, I would say it’s probably [00:04:20] been about six, 5 or 6 years after I qualified. I started [00:04:25] having kind of these nagging kind of neck pain of waking up with, with a completely [00:04:30] stiff neck and kind of tingling down my arm and fingers and, you know, like, I [00:04:35] think that’s probably one of my one of the biggest regrets is I kind of didn’t listen to my body soon [00:04:40] enough, and I kind of ignored the signs that things were kind of breaking down a little bit. Yeah. [00:04:45] And I think as a lot of dentists do, you know, we we want to kind of push on and we prioritise [00:04:50] our patients. We don’t let our patients down, our team down, our family down. There’s a lot of people depending on [00:04:55] us. So I just pushed through it. You know, painkillers and a little bit of stretching. And usually it would it would go away. Yeah. [00:05:00] And I didn’t really kind of, you know, try and focus on why that’s [00:05:05] happening. You know. Was it the posture, was it the equipment I was using. Um, so yeah. And [00:05:10] that, that, kind of that then escalated, of course, and culminated in kind of, um, yeah. The, [00:05:15] this complete slipped disc which, which affected, um, my fingers and my and my manual dexterity. [00:05:20]

And you were saying when you look at it now, you think an element of why that happened [00:05:25] was that you’re a left hander, but you kind of retrained yourself [00:05:30] into being a right hander very early on.

Yes. Yeah. I mean, I’m naturally [00:05:35] a left hander. I write with my left hand and I noticed [00:05:40] that at dental school, everything’s kind of geared towards being right handed. Dentist. Um, [00:05:45] a lot of the demonstrators were themselves right handers. So a lot of the kind of demonstrations [00:05:50] that were done. I almost had to kind of.

Reverse.

Reverse it [00:05:55] in my mind. Um, and there wasn’t, at that time, a lot, a lot of support in terms of how to do that. [00:06:00] Yeah. And then, you know, I was given some advice that, you know, [00:06:05] why don’t you try learning with your right hand? Because if you can learn to be ambidextrous, then [00:06:10] you could kind of work in any situation. Uh, and my kind of thinking was, you know, [00:06:15] you know, I’m still pretty raw with my left hand. I’m learning a new skill. Yeah. Yeah. Let me be raw with [00:06:20] my right hand. And let me make all the mistakes on the phantom head now. And by the time I come out, you know it [00:06:25] will be. It will be okay. And. Yeah. So I retrained as a as a right handed dentist. And I became [00:06:30] very, very skilled at that actually.

And then you were working in different practices [00:06:35] as a right hander. No, no.

No, I just everything was right.

I never, ever did dentistry. Your left hand. [00:06:40]

I never did just because I did so much practice on the phantom head with the left hand, [00:06:45] that when I then started to switch. I could switch for certain things [00:06:50] like, you know, kind of crown preps and any kind of fine things like root canal, crown [00:06:55] preps, margins. I would be more comfortable with my right hand because it became more dextrous. Yeah, [00:07:00] my left hand, I used to use it for certain things, but I kind of [00:07:05] almost said, you know what? I’ve learned right handed. Now, let me just stick with that. Because if I can do this for, [00:07:10] you know, you’ve got this thing about the 10,000 hours thing, if you do something for 10,000 hours, [00:07:15] you become an expert. So I’m like, I don’t want to switch halfway now and kind of confuse my brain. So yeah, I [00:07:20] just did everything right handed.

But you think that that actually has an effect on [00:07:25] your posture, your stress levels?

I think it does. Because, you know, what I [00:07:30] realised was that it’s not only just holding a handpiece in the right hand. What tends to happen is when [00:07:35] when you’re your brain is wired a certain way, your whole kind of neuromusculature [00:07:40] and your whole body corresponds to that. And looking back now, kind of what [00:07:45] I realised was, although in my mind I was quite happy with the work that I was doing right [00:07:50] handed. A lot of it was then me positioning my body and [00:07:55] my neck and back in really unhealthy positions to kind [00:08:00] of get that direct vision that I was after and that kind of manual dexterity. And I wonder [00:08:05] if I had stuck with the left hand, because that’s the way my [00:08:10] physiology and everything was geared towards. Maybe it would have been, um, [00:08:15] a healthier posture, I don’t know. But yeah, I can I can only conjecture.

And so [00:08:20] when you before the issue became an issue, how [00:08:25] would you mapped out your career? What were you what were you going to do?

Yeah.

So I’m an associate when all [00:08:30] of this was going.

So it was it was kind of, you know, I was happy in the practice. The patients [00:08:35] were nice. The practice was really good, and I was I was earning a good income. I was doing the work [00:08:40] that I enjoyed doing. Um, so really it was, it was my goal was [00:08:45] yeah, just to kind of, you know, career associate route, you know, just keep working. Um, have [00:08:50] have an income coming in and obviously have investments outside of dentistry. Um, I [00:08:55] was always been interested in kind of the investment world and kind of stocks, shares, property. [00:09:00] So my, my kind of outlook was, you know, you’ve got your, your central kind of, you know, secure [00:09:05] stable uh or what I, what I thought was secure and stable income coming in. Uh, and [00:09:10] I was always mindful of the fact that, you know, with dentistry, it’s kind of like a, it’s a career where [00:09:15] it really relies on you being there 24 over seven. I mean, if you stop doing a filling or you go [00:09:20] on a holiday or something, that’s it. The income dries up. So I’ve always been geared towards thinking [00:09:25] about the future in terms of how would you invest money.

So then you could retire at a certain [00:09:30] age, or you could you could kind of cut down at a certain age. So that’s kind of how I mapped out, mapped [00:09:35] out my career that I would do dentistry. And I would do that really until kind [00:09:40] of it came to retire and maybe a little bit before that I would cut back a bit because I always [00:09:45] find it. I mean, it is a stressful profession. It’s not something I wanted to do six days a week for the rest of my life, [00:09:50] and I was kind of advised by colleagues older than me that, look, it’s not healthy anyway, that you may [00:09:55] want to kind of cut back a little bit over time, um, just to get that work life balance. [00:10:00] Um, so yeah, the idea was do that dentistry cut back a little bit, you know, part [00:10:05] time when I could. And I had another kind of passive income stream coming in and then yeah, [00:10:10] you know, have a have an investment portfolio in place to, to kind of live out the rest of my life. So were.

You overworking. [00:10:15] Were you doing six days a week?

Yeah. I think for a long time I was [00:10:20] kind of, you know, hell bent on this, you know, let’s generate as much income as we can, [00:10:25] you know, while I can let me do that. So then I have a, have a nice kind of bit of capital [00:10:30] to invest in other things. So I was always very geared towards work, work, work, very much a [00:10:35] workaholic. So it was kind of like, you know, Monday to Friday and also Saturday, half [00:10:40] days as well. Um, I remember, you know, colleagues in the practice coming [00:10:45] and telling me, look, mate, you know, you need to take at least a holiday a year, at least 1 [00:10:50] or 2 holidays. Just doing that. No, no, I just got into the I got into the mindset [00:10:55] of I used to be scared of taking holidays because I would I would enjoy them for like the first 1 [00:11:00] or 2 days, and then I would have this voice in my head thinking, you know, how many [00:11:05] hours have you sat at the beach today? You know, what’s your hourly rate? How much have you lost? [00:11:10] So when you go back, you know, maybe I could do a bit of extra and a few extra crowns or a few extra. It was a very unhealthy mentality [00:11:15] to have, but I used to find that I used to just ruminate on that. So rather than enjoying [00:11:20] the holiday and enjoying the time with my family, I was I was kind of half enjoying and half [00:11:25] my mind was back at the practice and back with my patients worrying about things.

Why?

Why? [00:11:30] I think it’s just maybe the way I’m wired. I don’t think it’s healthy and I don’t encourage that kind [00:11:35] of thinking. Um, but I think it all stems in [00:11:40] a Y always comes down to it. There’s always something in a person’s mindset that drives them. [00:11:45] I think I’ve always been a very driven person. I’ve always wanted to kind of, um, I [00:11:50] think, you know, prove to myself and obviously you want to prove to your parents, [00:11:55] you want them to be proud of you. You want to show that you’re successful. And I think the way [00:12:00] things are made in the kind of the environment and society we live in, that’s unfortunately [00:12:05] that’s material success. That’s money and houses and cars. So I went [00:12:10] through a whole phase of, you know, I have to have the nice car and the nice watch and all this stuff. [00:12:15] And that required working hard and looking back, I think that probably [00:12:20] wasn’t a very healthy mentality. And I don’t I wouldn’t want to encourage that in my kids. So I would say, [00:12:25] yeah, you know, definitely work hard and have a goal and have a, have a, you know, a passion for what you’re doing, but balance [00:12:30] that as well because it’s it’s not the be all and end all of life. You know, you’re not your profession. You know [00:12:35] there’s there’s life outside of that which is more meaningful and the connections with [00:12:40] people and travelling. And those are the things you remember at the end, not your, you know, how many crown [00:12:45] preps you’ve done.

But also if the goal was income generation, six days [00:12:50] a week of dentistry might not have been the best way to get that goal. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember cutting [00:12:55] down to four days. Yeah. Earning as much as I was earning in five. Yeah. Then I [00:13:00] thought I’d go down to three days. Yeah. To try and get the same amount of income. Yeah. [00:13:05] And I found that wasn’t quite for, definitely for, for I think for it was earning more than [00:13:10] the five. I think.

You’re right. Four is the sweet spot and.

The sweet spot of, of of that [00:13:15] particular era. Yeah. Yeah. So I reckon three is lovely. I’ve done three. [00:13:20] Yeah a lot. I’ve done two a lot, yeah, I’ve done one for six [00:13:25] years. I did one day a week. Wow. Big mistake. I think one one’s just not enough.

It’s not. Yeah. [00:13:30]

Not enough rhythm in it. Yeah. Um, when I, when I say when I ask why, my question [00:13:35] really is, is that sort of mentality of work your butt off mentality? [00:13:40] Yeah. As a precursor to success? Yeah. It’s okay. Yes. [00:13:45] One one way of succeeding is to work harder than everyone else. Yeah. Yeah. And in [00:13:50] a way, that’s a prerequisite. Yeah. But work at what? Like put your ladder [00:13:55] against which wall before you climb it.

Precisely.

I thought I thought, yeah, that [00:14:00] I need one day to. One day a week. Not not not a weekend day. One work [00:14:05] day to plot. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, you’ve got other interests, [00:14:10] right? You’ve got properties. Yeah. And so on that Saturday morning, [00:14:15] the amount you were earning.

Mhm.

Arguably if you spent that Saturday morning working [00:14:20] on your property business you’d be earning more. But that didn’t cross your mind. So you were sort of very [00:14:25] tunnel visioned.

Yeah. About it. I think I think you’re right. And it’s kind of it’s ironic [00:14:30] because when, when I was actually forced to cut down to three days.

It sharpens [00:14:35] you up.

Yeah, it was amazing because I was I was really scared, like, oh my [00:14:40] God. You know, I was like doing all these calculations that, oh, you know, if I cut down, my income is going [00:14:45] to be reduced by this much. And I was doing all these like three year projections and blah, blah, blah. Let me speak to [00:14:50] the accountant, actually. Do you know what the funny thing is? I actually ended up earning more [00:14:55] in three days. And that time out of dentistry to actually think [00:15:00] about what I’m doing and recover and recuperate when I went back into practice. [00:15:05] Um, so I did Monday to Wednesday and I cut I cut out Thursday, Friday. So I, and [00:15:10] I cut, cut out the Saturday. So I actually had Thursday.

This was for you because of your neck.

Because of the.

Neck [00:15:15] to slow down. Because.

Yeah. I mean literally the surgeon was like, look, you know, you need to either [00:15:20] either you need to you’re going to have to quit right now, or if you want to try [00:15:25] and get some longevity out of this and see if you can heal up, at least you need to go part time. So it [00:15:30] was more I was forced to do it. Do it. And the ironic thing is that you’re absolutely right. When I did that, and I did that for [00:15:35] over just over a year, and when I look back at my accounts and everything [00:15:40] I was, I was like, wow, do you know what I should not proportional.

No, no, really.

No, [00:15:45] it’s not proportional. And actually it’s better because I had that kind of extra time [00:15:50] with my family and extra time to think about other things and, you know, other life [00:15:55] in general and other business ventures. Um, and I found that when you actually switch off from dentistry [00:16:00] and then you go back after a little bit of like a time of recuperation and recovery, you [00:16:05] become more efficient. Your thought process changes the way you talk to patients, changes.

It [00:16:10] private, then.

Private dentistry.

Specifically in private dentistry, what you say to patients [00:16:15] is the most important part percent.

100%.

And so if you’re burnt out, you [00:16:20] just can’t. You almost like a robot, right? You’re just you’re just doing going through the motions. [00:16:25] Yeah. Whereas if you’re fresh doing courses, talking talk [00:16:30] to patients. You know, it’s certain. That’s an amazing learning point in itself. And yet you [00:16:35] found that even though you cut down the neck was still getting worse.

Yeah, [00:16:40] I think unfortunately, because I pushed it to such a limit, it got to the [00:16:45] point that it was just the, the, the way, the mechanical way [00:16:50] of doing dentistry. And you know, you can’t I maybe learned learned some [00:16:55] bad posture. But I tried to, you know, rejig my posture and everything. But my [00:17:00] body was it’s been trained like that. So I found that I was constantly irritating it [00:17:05] and constantly then having to take painkillers and steroid jabs and and eventually [00:17:10] the surgeon sat me down and said, look, do you know what you’re probably your best bet is? The damage [00:17:15] has happened. Now it’s not going to reverse. Um, and you know, you’re going to need a surgery. [00:17:20] Um, and it was quite a scary way. He explained it in a disc replacement [00:17:25] surgery, you know, going through the front, removing the disc, disk. Working so close to the [00:17:30] spinal cord? Um, I think unfortunately, it was too late by then. The [00:17:35] damage was done, and even going to part time wasn’t going. Going to [00:17:40] help because it was the nature of the job. Um, that that you have to move around and we and we have a [00:17:45] our demographic was a lot of elderly patients who themselves had limited movement. And you just couldn’t [00:17:50] do that. I didn’t want to compromise on the dentistry. So I would I would pop the painkillers and I would be like, [00:17:55] listen, I’m gonna do this prep and I’m gonna twist my neck, and I know it’s gonna I’m [00:18:00] not going to move the next day, but I have to do it because this patient needs this care, and I wanted [00:18:05] to do it to the best of my ability. So towards the end of it, I knew I was just [00:18:10] just kind of.

You know, muscle.

Memory.

Muscle memory is such an extraordinary thing. It is. [00:18:15] The way I think about it is when I was 18, in uni, [00:18:20] someone told me, you’re riding bicycle incorrectly. You’re where my where [00:18:25] my feet are positioned on the pedals. Wrong. It needs to be the tip of your toes on the pedal, not [00:18:30] not the middle of your heel or whatever it is. And from 18 until 45, [00:18:35] every time I ride a bike, I did it that way. Never felt right, man. Because in those [00:18:40] formative years and as a kid, you ride a bike a lot, I guess. Yes. But in those formative [00:18:45] years, my I was most comfortable with my legs in the wrong position. And to this day, [00:18:50] I’m more comfortable with my legs than that, even though I honestly, every time I ride a bike from 18 onwards, [00:18:55] I made a real point of doing it the other way. But muscle memory, man.

It’s [00:19:00] a hard thing. And even when you know intellectually that I have to do it [00:19:05] in a new way because I’m damaging myself, you can do it for, you know, a few minutes [00:19:10] or, you know, five, ten minutes. But with dentistry, you become so robotic in some of the [00:19:15] movements you do. And I used to just be nudged by my nurse saying, look, what are you what are you doing? [00:19:20] And I’m like, oh, wow. Okay. Let me you know, I didn’t realise that was just my bending and twisting at a [00:19:25] 90 degree angle, but I had. It’s just that’s the way I had done it, and that’s the way I knew I could. [00:19:30] I could do the prep and I was comfortable with it. Um, so you’re absolutely right. I think, you know, these things become ingrained [00:19:35] and it’s better to learn the good habits from the beginning for the formative stages, because [00:19:40] relearning this stuff later is really difficult. It’s really, really difficult. It’s a battle.

So [00:19:45] then you’ve got a moment happened where you talk to your doctors [00:19:50] and they said, look, either you stop completely and see [00:19:55] how that works out for your neck, or you have this gigantic operation with risks [00:20:00] and, and so forth. And you decided at that moment I’m going to have to stop. Yeah. [00:20:05] And financially, you’d saved up some money. Yeah, yeah. And just tell [00:20:10] me what’s going through your head. Because the kind of person who’s so defined themselves by dentistry that [00:20:15] they’re doing six days a week. Yeah, that must be like a weird. I went through it myself. [00:20:20] I still define myself as a dentist. Yeah. Must be a really weird feeling. What were you [00:20:25] thinking? Were you thinking. It’s a it’s a it’s a small period of time, and you’ll go back to it. Or did [00:20:30] you actually face the notion of. I might have to, like, change my. I mean, you did, right. You changed your career. [00:20:35] How did it feel identity wise?

I think you know, you’re [00:20:40] absolutely right. I think the way I would define it as it maybe sounds a bit [00:20:45] dramatic, but it kind of almost felt like. Like a death. You know.

You mourned it somehow. [00:20:50]

Yeah. Yeah. It literally felt like a death. You know, you had you know, I went through the whole kind of grief [00:20:55] and fear and even denial. Yeah. It’s not happening. It’s fine. I’ll be okay. [00:21:00]

The seven stages.

Oh. The whole. Yeah, the whole stages. I went through all of that. And I think, you [00:21:05] know, I, I kind of got to the stage where I’m like, you know what? Let me, you [00:21:10] know, use this kind of pain as, as fuel. Rather than dwell [00:21:15] on it as.

An opportunity.

As an opportunity. And yet it was absolutely an identity crisis. [00:21:20] And there was a big kind of several months of kind of where I really went. It [00:21:25] felt low and almost like a depression where I was like, what do I do? And you know, what [00:21:30] I realised was that, you know, this is forcing me to ask a question which I [00:21:35] haven’t faced before. You know, how do I define myself [00:21:40] beyond the drills and the GDC number? You know, who am I? And it was a whole [00:21:45] identity thing. And I was like, you know, rather than frame it as an identity crisis, [00:21:50] maybe I could pivot it and make it into an identity upgrade. You know, so reinvention. [00:21:55] So I started exploring, you know, what could I do to [00:22:00] still serve the dental profession, but rather than doing it with my hands, [00:22:05] you know, do it with my mind, you know, with systems and strategies and things that I had learned [00:22:10] over the years, what could I do? So to answer your question, I think I [00:22:15] accepted it because it was a long process. It wasn’t like a it wasn’t like a snap decision. It was. I [00:22:20] knew this was potentially coming. It was a period of a year and a half, almost two years. And [00:22:25] yes, it was a calculated kind of risk. I mean, I’d kind of rejigged things around financially [00:22:30] so that I knew I know that I’ve got a bit of a buffer there as well. And I [00:22:35] reframed it as a kind of like a rather than a catastrophic [00:22:40] event.

And this is the end of everything. I was like, that’s not helping anybody, [00:22:45] you know? I mean, I’ve got two young kids, I’ve got a four and a half year old and a two and a half year old. And, you know, [00:22:50] I’ve got family. People are depending on me. I can’t be wallowing. So I was like, let me [00:22:55] use this to actually reinvent myself. Uh, and I reframed it [00:23:00] that actually, you know, you’re very lucky because some people, they do something, and then they’re doing that for the rest of their [00:23:05] lives, and they reach a point that maybe they think, oh, you know, maybe I could have done this, this, this, but it’s too late. And [00:23:10] now the universe is essentially giving me a second chance. So I saw it more like [00:23:15] a rebirth, you know? Let me try and reinvent [00:23:20] myself. And the worst case scenario is, you know, I’m gonna [00:23:25] learn lots of new skills, meet lots of new people, and have lots of [00:23:30] exciting stories. And I may go, I may do something which I’d never imagined. Um, [00:23:35] and for me, I think that opportunity and yes, it’s a risk, but [00:23:40] I think for me, the opportunity was too good to turn down. Yeah. [00:23:45] Um, and, you know, the way I look at risk is that, you know, risk is unavoidable. Um, [00:23:50] but I think what’s worse than risk is regret. I [00:23:55] think that’s worse because that gnaws at you. What if, what if, what if. So that was my [00:24:00] thought process.

Yeah, I like that. Um, anyway, in at any [00:24:05] moment when life is going the wrong way. Gratitude, definitely. I [00:24:10] mean, gratitude generally is a good idea. It’s a good idea. I mean, anyone listening to this who is still drilling. [00:24:15] However much you hate your nurse, however much you hate your [00:24:20] practice, however much you know, whatever it is, Randy [00:24:25] can’t drill anymore. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, just that gratitude of I can [00:24:30] put food on the table with an mod 100%. Yeah, you haven’t got that at the moment. Yeah, yeah. And [00:24:35] much of the audience has got that, however difficult life is from the work perspective. [00:24:40] And then with you again, gratitude at least I’ve got this opportunity and gratitude [00:24:45] just perfect. And you know, in the final analysis. Yeah, some child was born yesterday and [00:24:50] bombed tomorrow.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like, even if even if even if you get [00:24:55] even if you get a cancer diagnosis, you’re going to die in three months time. Yeah, yeah. Some some child [00:25:00] has got it worse than you. It just helps. Gratitude just helps.

Gratitude is and it’s [00:25:05] amazing because you know, you don’t. And it’s a cliche, but it’s so true. You know, you don’t realise what [00:25:10] you have until it’s gone. And no matter how you how. No. Yeah, I know you get jaded [00:25:15] and I know clinical work and patience and, you know, all this stuff. And it’s [00:25:20] stressful and I don’t like it. And everybody goes through that. But you know, when you [00:25:25] actually sit down and you’re confronted with the reality that, well, that’s gone now, there you go. Have fun. [00:25:30] And it’s amazing how you so defined [00:25:35] by by your profession and what you’re doing. It’s so intertwined within your brain. [00:25:40] Yeah, that when it’s gone and we.

Do as dentists, we do convince ourselves there’s nothing [00:25:45] else we can do. Yeah. I mean, you had your IT side. Yeah. But a lot of us think, [00:25:50] you know what else? I don’t know anything else. That’s all I know. Yeah, yeah. And whether it’s a medical [00:25:55] thing, whether it’s a GDC thing, that’s why people are so scared of that, right? Because you think, well, what am [00:26:00] I going to do? What am I going to do next? So that kind of scratching [00:26:05] the itch of software, tech, AI and timing [00:26:10] wise, not bad, right? Because I think ai it feels. Do you remember when Google [00:26:15] came out? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And the whole world changed. Yeah. And so it’s the same thing. [00:26:20] Like when social came out, the whole world changed. Yeah. Now AI’s come out. The whole world is [00:26:25] about to change. There’s about to be winners and losers. Yeah. There’s about to be, you know, like, so much [00:26:30] more work and so much less work for another group of people. [00:26:35] Yeah. Timing wise, it’s kind of an interesting time.

It is, it is.

You’re [00:26:40] biting a huge bite. Yeah, yeah. Taking a big chunk and and [00:26:45] the question of, you know, with companies in general, can we get somewhere, the dream [00:26:50] that you have, the steps that it takes to get to that dream. How much did you know [00:26:55] about entrepreneurship? Um, you know, before we went on, Mike, you were [00:27:00] talking about, you know, things like, uh, minimum viable product, uh, runway, [00:27:05] all of it. How much did you know about all that stuff before?

Yeah.

Were you interested in it anyway, [00:27:10] or did you have to get interested?

I think I was. I was always interested in it. I always had this [00:27:15] kind of, you know, entrepreneurial bent of kind of. I loved the business side [00:27:20] of things. Even during my associateship, I was always looking at ways, you know, to [00:27:25] open businesses and maybe buy a practice. I was always looking at business, and I was [00:27:30] very interested in people who have an idea and [00:27:35] how that idea is translated into something practical developed, and [00:27:40] then they go to market with it and, and they don’t know where it’s going to work or it’s not going to work. [00:27:45] I’ve always been fascinated by that kind of story of entrepreneurship. Uh, [00:27:50] and I always used to read all the books and watch all these videos. And I got [00:27:55] to this stage now where I’m like, you know, I have a chance now to potentially pursue something like this. And yet [00:28:00] I’ve always been interested in tech, and I’ve been watching AI for a long time. And [00:28:05] it’s just for me. What the way AI is now. It’s [00:28:10] how the internet was back then. We’re at that stage, you know, when when it was at [00:28:15] that stage when you had the AOL and the Googles and the Amazons and, you know, there was so much [00:28:20] noise. Dot com.

Yeah. The.com bubble and the boom and the bust. We’re living [00:28:25] that now. So it’s actually a very exciting time to be alive because it’s kind of a second chance of going through [00:28:30] that. Yeah. Um but it’s happening a lot faster. And it will happen a lot faster than the internet [00:28:35] boom happened, because we’ve got a lot of the infrastructure there. And what I’ve seen with AI is that AI [00:28:40] just multiplies things. It’s, it’s it’s a speed multiplier and it can go [00:28:45] in any way. But it’s things are happening very quickly. And it’s a [00:28:50] time now where I think if you can come in with something novel and fulfil, [00:28:55] you know, fulfil a solve a problem, really using AI [00:29:00] in a practical way and not just a kind of, you know, bells and whistles and the ChatGPT and all the kind of That [00:29:05] kind of top end stuff, but actually solve business problems. Realistically, [00:29:10] and show people how you can give them an ROI on, on on a piece of [00:29:15] software. I think it’s a good it’s a very, very good time to do it. But yes, it’s [00:29:20] a very risky time, and it’s a time when, you know, people are either gonna be winners [00:29:25] or they’re going to go bust.

Yeah. What did you do to educate yourself, both from a [00:29:30] business perspective and from a tech perspective?

So first thing, what [00:29:35] I did was, you know, when this thing happened with my neck, I said, look, you know, I need to diversify [00:29:40] my skill set. And I would say, anybody listening to this, any dentist listening to this, it’s always, [00:29:45] always a good idea. Do the dentistry 100% [00:29:50] and get good at dentistry. But always invest in yourself outside of dentistry, be it [00:29:55] with non-related courses, business, entrepreneurship, anything else [00:30:00] in personal development, you need to diversify your skill set because again, you’ve got, you know, [00:30:05] one pair of hands and something happens and you can’t do it. You need to be able to diversify. So that’s one point [00:30:10] in terms of what I did. I actually said, you know, I need to educate myself. I went on [00:30:15] a course at Imperial Business School. It was the, um, AI Beyond [00:30:20] Generative AI course at Imperial Business School. And this really helped [00:30:25] to kind of open my eyes, expanded really how I thought about technology. I’ll always used to think about [00:30:30] technology as a feature or a tool. This is a piece of technology. This is [00:30:35] an AI tool. But actually what I learned was that technology is really the [00:30:40] core driver of strategy and transformation in the business. It’s not just a standalone tool, [00:30:45] although it can be, but it’s more of a strategic driver. And what that [00:30:50] taught me was it kind of helped me to imagine, expanded my imagination so [00:30:55] I could learn how to use AI in new ways, not just for automation, but [00:31:00] to actually, you know, disrupt the way Dental business is done and [00:31:05] any business is done. It’s a real disruptor. So I think it opened my eyes to how to [00:31:10] use tools to actually disrupt and innovate in industries [00:31:15] where maybe things are done in a certain way and people are entrenched in a certain thinking. So yeah, [00:31:20] I definitely.

Was the course like, I mean, were you talking how long was it? So this, this were the other people [00:31:25] on the course.

So I mean.

Were you out of your depth compared to the others or did you feel comfortable? [00:31:30]

I mean, it was good because it was a non-technical course, so you didn’t need to come to it from [00:31:35] like a coding background. So it was it was a lot of different business executives from [00:31:40] loads of different industries. So you had kind of, you know, finance, you know, oil and gas [00:31:45] economy. So it was really interesting actually, because.

Meeting those guys.

Yeah.

Meeting those guys.

Yeah. [00:31:50] Because it’s kind of when you talk to people and I found I learnt more about [00:31:55] dentistry and dental business from speaking to people outside of Side of dentistry [00:32:00] and actually seeing how they do things and then filtering that through that Dental [00:32:05] business lens. And then you learn so much more and you can actually there’s there’s [00:32:10] so many transferable skills you can learn. So I didn’t feel out of my depth because I think everybody was [00:32:15] in the same boat. And with AI it’s, it’s it’s kind of new. It’s so new that, you [00:32:20] know, you learn something one week and then next week they come out with another announcement. It’s all changed. So we were all out [00:32:25] of our depth. But I went to it with a very open mind. I said.

What was it? Was it one day a week?

No. [00:32:30] So this was really good because it was it was an online course and I did it over six [00:32:35] months. Um, there were a couple of networking sessions as well in person, but [00:32:40] I actually because at that time I was still doing dentistry and I was kind of transitioning out of dentistry. So this [00:32:45] really worked for me because it was I could do it during my lunch time. So I used to see my morning patients [00:32:50] go on these live webinars and sessions during my lunch time and then see my [00:32:55] evening patients and then, you know, at night once the kids were in bed doing all the coursework. [00:33:00] So this was nice because I didn’t really have the time or the luxury to kind of go on campus [00:33:05] and go for a whole year thing. So for me, this was nice because it was I could do [00:33:10] it around around my work at that time. Uh, and I kind of wanted to tie it [00:33:15] in that when I then left the dental side of things, I had that under my belt. Uh, [00:33:20] and, yes, obviously the course content is good. It helps you to to learn [00:33:25] about entrepreneurship and business innovation, but more so it’s the networking. [00:33:30] It’s kind of getting that network and speaking to to people in a [00:33:35] similar environment who are entrepreneurs and founders and the building things, and you build that camaraderie [00:33:40] and that network.

So for me, it was yeah, it was two pronged. I wanted yeah, the [00:33:45] knowledge, but more so I actually wanted to open the doors in terms of that networking [00:33:50] side of things because as, as, as dentists, you know, it’s a very isolating profession. And I was drilling [00:33:55] Phil for so many years, you kind of neglect that whole other side of things like networking and building, [00:34:00] building those kind of professional networks and friendship networks. And I’d kind of let that [00:34:05] go. And you can’t really, as you know, you can’t really make a successful business [00:34:10] if you’re if you’re not networking, if you don’t have have a group of people and peers even just to tell [00:34:15] you that an idea is crap, you know, even just to say, look, this is what I think. And they say, no, you know, you’re barking up the wrong tree. Or [00:34:20] have you tried this? Have you tried that? See, that was my thought process behind that. So yeah, self-education is a must. [00:34:25] I’ve always been a lifelong learner. I’ve loved reading and I’ve loved reading around the subject [00:34:30] of so not just Dental stuff, but non non related dental stuff. [00:34:35] And I found I can pick things from everywhere and utilise what’s what’s helpful.

And [00:34:40] so now you’re kind of immersed in that sort of founder community [00:34:45] let’s say. Yeah. Where what you’re having meetings with uh VC’s [00:34:50] and incubators and the [00:34:55] London’s actually becoming quite good in that sense. It’s all a sort of Shoreditch, [00:35:00] isn’t it? Yeah, yeah, that area there. But you said you haven’t got a mentor. Yeah, [00:35:05] I would get one. I agree I’d get one. Yeah. It’s. Yeah it’s funny because we get it [00:35:10] as dentists it makes sense to have an implant mentor. Yeah. But in business we don’t we sort [00:35:15] of doesn’t come as naturally. Yeah, but I would I would get into that world. You’re you’re obviously a little bit [00:35:20] older than most founders. Yeah, yeah. So now going forward, [00:35:25] um, where are we where are we at with the product, by the way? By the way, what’s what’s [00:35:30] a few good books you read about business?

Well, um.

Did you read lean.

Start-up? Yeah, well, [00:35:35] I’ve read lean Start-Up. I love that whole philosophy behind it. Yeah. Um, one book which [00:35:40] really comes to mind is, I don’t know whether you’ve read it. It’s the one thing by Gary Keller and, [00:35:45] uh, Jacobson.

I’ve heard of.

It. It’s it’s basically it’s quite interesting because, you know, [00:35:50] the premise is that if if you focus on 1 [00:35:55] or 2 main things in a business, usually it’s not about doing lots of different, lots [00:36:00] of things. And as dentists, we’re inundated with kind of you’ve got patients, you’ve got staff, you’ve got CQC, you’ve [00:36:05] got finances. And you know, especially my thought process was if I just do more [00:36:10] of everything, I can get better or I can, I can earn more, I can grow more, scale more. But actually [00:36:15] the reverse is true. Usually if you analyse it, there’s 1 or 2 key things [00:36:20] that if you focus on those and you focus on those consistently, they have much more of a multiplier [00:36:25] effect. So this book I would recommend, it’s called the One thing. And that’s the premise that, you know, there’s [00:36:30] only 1 or 2 main levers that you need to pull, and you need to do those consistently. [00:36:35] And over time, that will actually have much more of a compounding effect than trying to just do lots of [00:36:40] different things and do more essentially. So less is more.

Yes. I think about that quite a [00:36:45] lot, man, because people think you’re right. The normal way you think is Add. [00:36:50]

Yeah.

Um, yeah, but you look at a company like a line. Yeah, a [00:36:55] line could add everything, couldn’t they? The biggest company in dentistry right [00:37:00] now. Yeah. They could become Henry Schein if they wanted to, but they don’t. They’re fully focussed [00:37:05] in on Invisalign, you know, they. And I guess I terror or whatever. Yeah. Like, you know, they [00:37:10] could easily move in different directions. Um, it does make [00:37:15] sense to fully focus. So when, when you thought about that, what was the one thing that [00:37:20] you thought practice management like that or was it more than that? Was it the way you act [00:37:25] or your personal.

Yeah, I think I like to read these kind of business books, not just for [00:37:30] the business perspective, but I like to take things from those and use them in my life because I think they’re useful. [00:37:35] So I think niching down, as you mentioned, is really powerful. It’s sometimes not [00:37:40] in a nice I know I’ll do this, I’ll do that, I’ll do this. But I’m always a firm believer that, you know, [00:37:45] find a niche and fully Immerse. Immerse yourself [00:37:50] in that and become the best at that niche. Because if you become the best in [00:37:55] that one thing you know, like life’s too short to try and become good at everything. You [00:38:00] have to play into your strengths. Yeah. Um, and yeah, you know, doing lots of things works for some [00:38:05] people, but you have to be very careful. And I’ve always I’ve always been kind of niching [00:38:10] down, even in a clinical practice. I kind of niche down into look, I like [00:38:15] cerec and I want to do cerec crowns. My patients like them and I just want to become really [00:38:20] good at it. And I got a I got this kind of workflow going where I could just do it very quickly. And I was [00:38:25] good at it, and I liked it and patients liked it, and I would cut out other stuff because I’m like, [00:38:30] this is the niche I want to focus on. So yeah, I think Niching down is very powerful. Um, and [00:38:35] especially when you’re starting out because you can’t do everything. So if you, if you try to become [00:38:40] an expert at one thing and you become the go to person for that one [00:38:45] thing, I think it would become a lot more successful than trying to be the jack of all trades, especially at [00:38:50] the beginning.

Yeah, but practically, what is the one thing? What what what’s going through your head?

So what, you mean in [00:38:55] terms of kind of the the the software side of things or the Start-Up?

You said the book makes you niche in. [00:39:00]

Yeah.

So, so what did you decide to niche in on software.

Yeah. So what I decided to niche [00:39:05] in I was like, look, you know, I’ve got 15 years or so of Dental experience. Um, I’ve [00:39:10] seen how things are changing. Dental practices are consolidating. It’s going to kind of like [00:39:15] a there’s a lot more kind of groups forming now, and there’s a lot more, um, advancement [00:39:20] and a lot more knowledge take up in terms of dentistry, people are a lot more [00:39:25] willing to take on tech solutions. There’s a lot of AI stuff happening front end. [00:39:30] So I saw all the AI stuff coming in. There’s amazing stuff happening in terms of AI receptionists. [00:39:35] There’s AI phone call analysis. You’ve obviously got the image analysis. They can detect caries. [00:39:40] Pearl, Pearl all this kind of stuff coming out. It’s really powerful. But I thought to myself, you [00:39:45] know, there’s there’s nothing that I can see at the moment that’s working on the back end of things. And I saw [00:39:50] as a I mean, I saw it from an associate angle. I saw the practice owners running around like headless [00:39:55] chickens, you know, trying to do everything you got. The practice owner who’s a clinician, they’re the marketer. They’re the [00:40:00] they’re the kind of admin person. They’re the CFO person. And it’s just not sustainable or healthy. So [00:40:05] my vision was, you know, if I could give them a tool to just help [00:40:10] them build a business, which was not kind of being reactive, but actually they could build it intentionally [00:40:15] and it would actually protect their energy and allow them to scale more intelligently, [00:40:20] but still have something left over inside for the more important things like their health, their family, [00:40:25] and life outside of practice.

So I think what me looking at things from the outside [00:40:30] of dentistry now, what I’ve come to see is that we’ve really normalised stress, [00:40:35] um, inefficiency and burnout. It’s just normal. We think that’s a dentist. [00:40:40] You’re going to get burnt out and that’s normal. And I wanted to help. I wanted to [00:40:45] do something to help people in our profession to actually say, actually, you know, I don’t [00:40:50] need to do everything. I could actually leverage technology to help me and free myself [00:40:55] up to kind of work on the other things, you know, work on work on the business [00:41:00] strategy, the systems, how to grow a practice because, you know, it’s very hard to work in a practice [00:41:05] and also work on the business at the same time. And it’s that e-myth, e-myth thing that we’re [00:41:10] all familiar with. And it’s true, you know, when you’re when you’ve got your head at the coalface [00:41:15] dealing with day to day chaos and the firefighting, it’s very hard to think clearly about [00:41:20] scaling and growth and systems from the practice. So I wanted to change that. And I think [00:41:25] AI is really going to be a disruptive technology in that space, because it’s [00:41:30] not about AI replacing people. It’s about using AI as [00:41:35] a as almost like a co-pilot, your silent co-pilot in the practice that is [00:41:40] there to take over and automate the tedious tasks and frees the human [00:41:45] being up to do what they should be doing, which is the patient centred things, the high value, the creativity. [00:41:50]

How are you going to grow your business? How are you going to be creative? It frees you up [00:41:55] to do that. And that’s that’s where the software aspect came in. [00:42:00] And I mean, I thought of the idea of of having like an AI CFO [00:42:05] for a dental practice, you know, having having that kind of expertise there. So, you know, the [00:42:10] name I came up was with dentist CFO and that was that was the Start-Up that I have. And the idea [00:42:15] is really to to have an have a financial brain around your, [00:42:20] your practice finances. I mean, what I saw was that practice owners, they lack this [00:42:25] financial clarity. A lot of there’s a lot of data. You’ve got data from PMS tools [00:42:30] and you’ve got data from QuickBooks and sage. But it’s all fragmented and it’s all in different places. And [00:42:35] there’s still, you know, you still have to collate all of that and try and get that in front of your eyes in [00:42:40] a in a plain English. So the idea for this is really to have a platform that’s [00:42:45] going to help dental practices gain clarity. That’s my my obsession. My my [00:42:50] obsession is clarity giving practice owners clarity. It’s amazing [00:42:55] how many dental practice owners are flying blind when it comes to their practice finances. [00:43:00] Yeah, and that’s the niche I want to kind of hone in is give them a tool [00:43:05] to to really help with that.

So look dentistry has kind of been it’s [00:43:10] profitable enough that you can run a business without this intelligence. Yes. [00:43:15] But give me an example of where I mean, I know you were just at MVP stage, but let’s [00:43:20] imagine let’s dream big. Let’s imagine that the system is fully running. Yeah. [00:43:25] Give me an example of the problem that dentist is trying to solve, and how this [00:43:30] sort of AI solution can solve it for him. Is it [00:43:35] in real time? Is it quicker? Is it better than. What’s [00:43:40] the alternative? His accountant? Yeah. Is that what we’re talking about?

Well, yeah. I mean, [00:43:45] what we’re talking about is you hit the nail on the head. It’s real time. A lot of the data at the moment, by [00:43:50] the time it. It’s in the front of the eyes of the practice owner or the manager. It’s [00:43:55] it’s historical. It’s not real time. Yeah. Now, the way things are going with the kind of cloud [00:44:00] based pms’s and a lot of the integrations and the open API systems, [00:44:05] you can actually plug in to a lot of these systems. And if you collate all this [00:44:10] fragmented data, you can present it in real time. And that’s really [00:44:15] useful because you need to really see where leaks are happening real time [00:44:20] to actually be effective with them. I mean, imagine, you know, plugging [00:44:25] into a system and saying, listen, you know, could you simulate for me hiring a full [00:44:30] time associate? Plug it in. Let’s do a simulation using my real time [00:44:35] data. What would the effect be on my bottom line if I hire another [00:44:40] full time associate? Bang. And that’s done for you in in seconds by AI doing [00:44:45] the analysis on that. And if we’re talking about now kind of groups of practices [00:44:50] where owners are kind of trying to grow these groups and scale [00:44:55] and tell a story to private equity and exit planning and all this stuff that requires [00:45:00] a lot of data, and the data needs to be very specific, real time, and it needs [00:45:05] to be comparable. So you need to say, look, how am I doing in terms of, say, EBITDA [00:45:10] if I twist, if I kind of changed 1 or 2 [00:45:15] KPIs, what effect would that have on my EBITDA? And with the power of [00:45:20] AI, you can simulate that without it having a real effect on your business.

So you [00:45:25] almost negate that risk. So that’s where the real power is. It’s not about automation. Automation [00:45:30] in AI has been there for a long time in the background. It’s just come into vogue now [00:45:35] because of the generative AI. The ChatGPT and stuff. But the next wave, where [00:45:40] things are going to be big, is actually using the AI as an as an intelligence platform. So [00:45:45] it becomes your almost like your your co-pilot or your advisor. Not [00:45:50] that you don’t make the judgement, you’re the final judge, but it presents it to you quicker [00:45:55] and in a way where you can act on it faster. Because in business, [00:46:00] as you know, in speed and clarity are everything. You know, if you’ve got some piece of data, there’s no point acting [00:46:05] on it tomorrow when your competitors are acting on it now. So that’s where [00:46:10] I see the opportunity. It’s not just about AI being used to automate things, which is useful, [00:46:15] but it’s about using that to actually act as a brain [00:46:20] of your practice, the intelligence layer of your practice. So that’s that’s [00:46:25] where I think that’s the big dream. That’s the big dream.

On day one. What do [00:46:30] you do to start that process?

Yeah, I think the first thing on day one, what we’ve [00:46:35] been doing is you need to talk to practice owners, you need to talk to you need to talk [00:46:40] to people who are there who are living that day to day. Yeah. And ask [00:46:45] them, you know, rather than say, look, this is my idea, I’m going to design X, [00:46:50] Y, and Z and I’m going to do this. It’s not about what you want. It’s about what your end user [00:46:55] needs. And I’m I’m always a believer in actually letting your customers [00:47:00] or your end users shape your product. You need to ask them what they want. And it’s very it sounds [00:47:05] it sounds almost too simple, but it’s true. Ask them and listen. [00:47:10] It’s not about telling people what they need, it’s about you asking them what they [00:47:15] want and then giving that to them. It’s as simple as that. Yeah, if [00:47:20] you can. And so, yeah, to answer your question, it’s market research. I mean I I’ve [00:47:25] spoken to hundreds of, of of dentists and practice owners and it’s [00:47:30] just research you market research and then having a team.

How did [00:47:35] you find hundreds of dentists to talk to?

Linkedin.

Oh, really?

Linkedin is an amazing [00:47:40] platform for I mean, obviously you’ve got you’ve got your Instagram.

Your cold kind of messaging [00:47:45] them on LinkedIn saying, yeah.

Yeah, it’s and it’s amazing, you know, when [00:47:50] and this is what’s really humbling is the amount of camaraderie that there is in our profession. You know, [00:47:55] when you ask when you just message somebody you don’t know and they come back to you as [00:48:00] a fellow dentist and take the time to actually say, look, I’ve had a look [00:48:05] at this questionnaire that you sent me. I’ve had a look at this prototype, and here’s what I think, [00:48:10] and here’s some feedback for you. And that’s really I’m really grateful [00:48:15] for that. And that’s really humbling. So one thing I would say, which is amazing in a profession like ours, [00:48:20] is that camaraderie that’s there, that if you ask people, if you just ask people, knock, knock on [00:48:25] the door, they will talk to you. Yeah. Like yourself, you know, I met you at the BDA conference and I just [00:48:30] came over to say hello, and I loved the podcast and it’s really had a had an effect on me [00:48:35] and kept me connected to dentistry. Uh, and just that conversation. And here I am now. So, [00:48:40] so, you know, it’s um. Yeah. So to answer your question, it’s it’s using [00:48:45] a lot of social channels, you know, and, and it’s also a lot of [00:48:50] warm leads and warm networking.

I mean, I’ve been a dentist for since, well, since 2009. [00:48:55] So I’ve got that kind of, you know, group of people that who I [00:49:00] could go to and say here, this is an idea. Could you have a look at it, or do you know somebody who would be [00:49:05] interested to have a look at that? And then. Yeah, and this is what was amazing. I did that [00:49:10] a few times. And then I just got text messages and messages on LinkedIn and people [00:49:15] contacting me saying, you know, I’d like to talk to you about this. And that’s where that then that, that’s [00:49:20] where it clicked there. You know, there’s a real need for this, because if it was just, you know, tumbleweed [00:49:25] and nobody was saying anything, I would say, no, this is not a good idea. But when you’ve got [00:49:30] people telling you and not just people, these are the end users telling you that, look, this is something that would really be a game [00:49:35] changer in dentistry. That’s when I started to say, hey, you know what? What are the common problems.

The [00:49:40] principals are saying they have?

Yeah, I think it’s lack of lack of real time data. [00:49:45] Yeah. Data being out of date when they have it in front of them and also having to [00:49:50] collate stuff from several different fragmented [00:49:55] solutions. So having data fragmented everywhere and then having somebody [00:50:00] there, you know, be it the be it the ops manager or the practice manager or the the [00:50:05] owner himself or herself actually sitting there and collating all of that. And I found what [00:50:10] I found from the research, a lot of it is still manual. Yes, you’ve got all the software, but the [00:50:15] end result is you still have to manually download all these spreadsheets and look at them and then highlight them, [00:50:20] and then try and draw conclusions from them, or send them to your accountant. And then you get something, [00:50:25] you know, a few weeks later, like a report. So the thing with the so [00:50:30] that was the problem. The problem was that the data is not real time. It’s not clear enough. [00:50:35] It’s still quite noisy. Uh, and it’s not in plain English. I mean, you [00:50:40] know, you you want something? Which. Yes, it’s numbers, but you want the numbers translated into [00:50:45] a format that’s quick and easy to understand. For somebody that doesn’t have a finance [00:50:50] degree or an MBA or anything like this.

And, and you want them to be able to make [00:50:55] a decision from that which is going to have a real ROI on their business. So [00:51:00] those were the problems that that was that were coming back to me from the feedback that I had, that look, we don’t have this at [00:51:05] the moment. And, you know, if you if you could provide a solution, uh, with AI and [00:51:10] the way the AI would be there is, is to make this quicker. So, yes, you have your [00:51:15] software which does everything, but there’s lots of software out there. There’s lots there’s loads of dashboards that [00:51:20] do the same thing. And yes, it’s nice to have a little dashboard and you can, But if you could use [00:51:25] the AI to actually interrogate that dashboard and say, you know, rather than spend [00:51:30] an hour going through everything, just ask a question. Hey, you know, could [00:51:35] you give me a report and compare last month to this month? Where are we? You [00:51:40] know what? Oh, and then it flags up. There’s been a drop in revenue, [00:51:45] but then it tells you why there’s been a drop in revenue. So it advise you that, look, you know, this [00:51:50] is potentially why there’s been a drop in revenue.

Like what?

Like what? Like say for example, for some [00:51:55] reason, you know, you can hone you can hone in on, say, a dentist in a practice and say for some [00:52:00] reason they suddenly there’s been a dip with, with with how they’re performing. Maybe last month [00:52:05] they were doing lots more crowns and this month they’re not. And it’s not to kind of, you know, get them in [00:52:10] front and interrogate them. Why are you doing this? But maybe there’s a reason. Maybe they’re burnt out. Maybe they’re going through something. [00:52:15] So it allows the the practice owner to then have a conversation with them and say, hey, you know, [00:52:20] is everything okay? What’s happening? Um, so yeah, that’s one. One aspect of it [00:52:25] is underperformance from a specific clinician, for whatever reason that is, and then [00:52:30] actually saying, you know, do you need to go on some extra courses? You know, do you want do you want a break. Do [00:52:35] you want some time out. And it’s quite personal for me because, you know, I got burnt out towards the end. So, you [00:52:40] know, that would be really useful for me as an associate if I had that, if somebody came and said, look, you know, we’ve noticed [00:52:45] this and it’s not to be Big Brother, but it’s to kind of, you know, do you need some help with something? [00:52:50] Yeah. The other, the other place in a kind of white space in diaries, you know. Yeah. [00:52:55] Where is all the white space? And sometimes we don’t realise that all these things are there.

Five minutes [00:53:00] here, ten minutes here. It all adds up. So if you could present that into a practice owner saying, look, [00:53:05] this is what you were doing, you know, this is your white space last month. This is your white space this month. And we [00:53:10] can actually use the AI intelligence machine learning to to learn [00:53:15] from your data and give you a little bit of a forecast. And what potential if you just didn’t change anything. [00:53:20] What would your white space be next month? And if you if you tweak this. So for example, if you [00:53:25] did a little bit more patient recall or you changed certain timings with how [00:53:30] you’re doing things, or you spoke to the associate and maybe say whether they want to go on [00:53:35] an implant course or do a few extra implants, or hire hire a specialist in to do for a few extra [00:53:40] implants. What effect would that have on your, you know, your revenue, your EBITDA and [00:53:45] your next months white space? So all of these things are there at the moment. I’m not saying they’re not there, [00:53:50] but it takes time to collate all this information together. And I think that’s the game [00:53:55] changer with AI, because it’s going to make the collation of that information, and the [00:54:00] presentation of that information to something concrete and actionable is going to make it lightning [00:54:05] quick.

But you’re having to API into the PMS. [00:54:10] Yeah, the sage, whatever they use for, for for CRM kind [00:54:15] of system that accounts. Yeah. You’re having to to get into all those systems. [00:54:20]

Yeah. Yeah.

It’s what a nightmare.

I mean, yes and no. I mean, plus. [00:54:25]

Yeah, you haven’t got a finance background yourself. I don’t know, an MBA or anything. [00:54:30] What are you doing about that? I mean, it sounds like such a mountain to climb. Are you breaking those down into smaller [00:54:35] parts? How do you.

100%. I think I’m a firm believer that, you know, leadership [00:54:40] is not about knowing everything yourself. Yeah, it’s about [00:54:45] being able to be humble enough to build the right team around you [00:54:50] to solve the problem. So I know where my strengths lie and I know where my weaknesses are. Now, [00:54:55] my kind of model for doing anything like this is hire the [00:55:00] talent who can do what you can’t do, or who’ve who’ve demonstrated that they’ve done it before, [00:55:05] and let and leverage their expertise rather than trying to reinvent the wheel [00:55:10] yourself. I mean, I haven’t got and as you mentioned, I’m a I’m a slightly older founder. I don’t have [00:55:15] the luxury, you know, to go back and say how I’m going to go now and I’m going [00:55:20] to do a computer science degree, then I’m going to go and do a finance degree, [00:55:25] then I’m going to go, it’s going to it’s going to be game over by that time. So [00:55:30] I’m a firm believer in in fractional talent. There’s there’s a big model [00:55:35] now called the fractional model where you essentially hire the top [00:55:40] talent as and when you need it. So you strategize it. Look, at the moment I need a product [00:55:45] team. So I’m going to go out and I’m going to hire the best product development team [00:55:50] who’ve done this before. You guys build a product. You know, my job is [00:55:55] as as a leader is the vision. And and to keep the vision on track and [00:56:00] your job is to execute the vision. And then once you’re done with that, right. What do we need [00:56:05] to do now? We need to go to market. Let’s hire a fractional talent on go to market. Let’s [00:56:10] hire a fractional talent on, you know, other aspects such as.

The [00:56:15] product phase.

Right now we’re at the product phase.

So are you doing the sprints and.

Yeah. [00:56:20] So we have a really good development team who are working on it as we speak. Um, [00:56:25] they’ve worked in this space before and I’m really a firm believer I [00:56:30] found them just through going and talking to people, you know, talking, going and [00:56:35] seeing these teams, seeing what they’ve worked on, asking the questions, saying, look, this is [00:56:40] my idea. You know, this is what my, my end users want, you [00:56:45] know, can you do it? Can you give me an example of how you’ve done it before? And [00:56:50] I have I’m not against outsourcing [00:56:55] stuff and it works really well. But I had this this vision that whatever I did, [00:57:00] I wanted to keep all the talent UK based. I wanted to keep everything that I’m doing. [00:57:05] The development team are all based here. Um, the legal team are all based here. The reason [00:57:10] is, you know, when you’re doing something and you’re you’re dealing with professionals, dentists, doctors. [00:57:15] You know, they need to have faith that what you’re proposing is that [00:57:20] software is going to be up to scratch in terms of data protection, GDPR, all [00:57:25] the latest legislation, and it’s going to be really high quality. And if if you have a problem, [00:57:30] you know it can be solved straight away. Now if I have a problem with anything I don’t need to worry [00:57:35] about. Oh, and it’s going to be 2:00 somewhere else.

I’ll ring somebody and then they get there. If [00:57:40] I have a problem with something, I can get it sorted out today. If an end [00:57:45] user has a problem, I get to know about it. I send it to the team. I say, look, [00:57:50] sort this out and it’s all done within the business day. Really. So that was my [00:57:55] vision. I wanted it to be accessible. I wanted it to be something where, you know, I [00:58:00] put my shoes in. I put myself in the shoes of the end user. What would I want if I have a problem, if I have a problem with [00:58:05] a piece of software and I ring somebody up, the worst thing is, you know, you go on [00:58:10] the chat support or you ring somebody up and you kept waiting and nobody really answers you and you. [00:58:15] Somebody comes back to you a day later. So I want this to be real time. If there’s any problem, [00:58:20] it gets solved straight away. So, you know, I’m a firm believer in, as you mentioned, [00:58:25] like the lean Start-Up. So kind of having a lean model, lean opex, having talent, [00:58:30] hiring people at the right time when it’s needed and not, you know, doing it at the [00:58:35] wrong time because it’s wasteful. Um, and I’m a firm believer as a Start-Up, you know? Yes, [00:58:40] hiring people and having that full team on board is a good [00:58:45] thing.

And you need that when the time is right, when you’re at a specific scale. But when you’re starting, you need to [00:58:50] be very agile. Um, and in order to be agile, you need to have a fractional model. So you, [00:58:55] you freelancers, contractors, people who know what they’re doing really [00:59:00] well and they’re really good at it. It goes back to the niche thing. You find somebody who’s an expert in their [00:59:05] niche, and you hire them for this certain amount of time and say, here’s the project, fulfil that. [00:59:10] Great. You’re done. Thank you. When we need you again, we’ll call you. Um. And that way, [00:59:15] if things go wrong as well, you can chop and change very quickly. Uh, you don’t need to worry about all the [00:59:20] headaches and hiring a full time staff and the pay and all the HMRC stuff around it. [00:59:25] And there’s, there’s, there’s a there’s there’s a moment for that and that’s necessary um, [00:59:30] to scale. And you know, when you have your culture and you want to build and, but at a Start-Up [00:59:35] stage when you’re just trying to go for an MVP and you’re trying to validate the market, you need to be quick, [00:59:40] you to be agile, and you need to be able to iterate very, very quickly.

So [00:59:45] how long have you been doing that? For how long? How long have you been working on the product?

Yeah. [00:59:50] So the product we’ve been working, uh, actually form the company in April 2025. [00:59:55] So it’s very, very new. I’ve had the idea for a long time. I mean, I’ve had the idea for, [01:00:00] I would say almost a year in my head just germinating, germinating. [01:00:05] And it got more serious. Obviously, when I knew that I wanted to [01:00:10] pivot away from the clinical dentistry side of things. And then when I realised [01:00:15] the potential impact something like this could have, I really wanted to focus on it full [01:00:20] time. Um, because it’s a full time job and I wanted to do it to the best of my ability. [01:00:25] So the actual, um, product we’ve it’s been germinating in my mind for over a year. [01:00:30] The actual kind of, you know, boots on the ground type of thing. And [01:00:35] having all the company incorporated and all the people signed up. I mean, that’s gone on since April. [01:00:40] So it’s very new, but it’s happening very fast. Um, and now I’m in it kind of, you know, [01:00:45] full time. Uh, so I’m on it 24 over seven. So it’s going to speed up.

And [01:00:50] you can you told me before, you reckon you’ve got a year’s runway before you need to raise.

Yeah, I [01:00:55] would say a year’s runway is, you know, six months would be nice. [01:01:00] But, you know, I’ve got a cushion for about a year. Um, so at the moment, yeah, I’m entirely [01:01:05] self-funding and I fully I’m fully committed and I really believe in this. So I’m putting [01:01:10] the money where my mouth is. So I want to I want to show that I’m committed to this. And I have skin [01:01:15] in the game, which is why I haven’t just gone on to to kind of raise straight away. And raising is important, but it [01:01:20] has to be done at the right time because you also, you know, when you’re raising it’s not just about, yeah, I’ve got loads [01:01:25] of money. You know, the way I think about investors and raising is you’re really you’re a steward [01:01:30] for their money. It’s somebody else’s money. You know, it’s a lot of pressure. You need to show [01:01:35] and give them a return on that money. That’s your reputation at the end of the day. Yes. So yeah raising [01:01:40] is good. And I you need to raise as a Start-Up or you’re not going to go anywhere. Um, we’re in the [01:01:45] process of that and we’re, we’re, we’re in talks with several VC firms, but that’s something that’s [01:01:50] upcoming.

Um, and I’m hoping once, you know, we can get in front of VCs and investors [01:01:55] the actual traction metrics to say, hey, look, this is our product, this is what people are saying [01:02:00] about it, and this is the ROI they’re getting from it. Um, then I think the money will come. [01:02:05] I think what you need to do, what I’ve learned is that if you’re if you have a product [01:02:10] where there’s a demand for it and you’re truly passionate about it, and you communicate that [01:02:15] well to people and you focus. Yes. And of course, there’s competitors. And of [01:02:20] course, the risk is somebody’s going to come and copy you, um, and put you out of business. But that’s life. [01:02:25] That’s business. That’s that’s entrepreneurship. And you have to be comfortable with that. But I think if [01:02:30] you can really, you know, kind of almost put that to the back of your mind. And, and I’m not [01:02:35] saying don’t worry about competitors, but don’t get fixated and obsessed with them. You [01:02:40] know, who you should be obsessed with. You should be obsessed with your customers.

Yeah.

Just be obsessed with your customers. And [01:02:45] then the money will follow that the money will follow. That’s my firm belief.

No, you’re absolutely right. [01:02:50] You’re absolutely right. I mean, the only issue with with AI is moving quick. So there’s going [01:02:55] to be quick, quick movers onto it. Yeah. Um.

100%. [01:03:00]

You know it’s it’s I don’t know what you mean about risk because someone [01:03:05] needs to make something like this. Yeah, and you’re right. That definitely [01:03:10] it’s all very fragmented at the moment. Um, all of AI. Right? It’s all very fragmented. [01:03:15]

It’s very noisy as well. There’s a lot of hype. There’s a lot of hype.

At the same time, it’s a good time to raise. [01:03:20] Yeah. For AI, right? Everyone I know who’s trying to raise for it, it’s something that isn’t AI is.

Yeah. [01:03:25] It’s finally starting to get tough.

Pissed off about AI being the only thing that investors are interested in. Yeah. [01:03:30] Um, we like to talk about mistakes on this pod.

Yeah.

Give [01:03:35] me one from dentistry and one from, uh, tech.

I [01:03:40] think from dentistry, I would say, um, [01:03:45] again, going back to the the kind of neck side of things, I think I pushed [01:03:50] it for a bit too long. Um, I kind of, you know, thankfully, you know, [01:03:55] I didn’t do anything catastrophic. I mean, patients were happy. I [01:04:00] still managed to kind of do very good quality work, even towards the end of kind of coming away [01:04:05] from dentistry where things were very hard, kind of with the manual dexterity. Um, [01:04:10] I think ignoring signs and putting things to [01:04:15] the back of my mind that my body was kind of not happy and kind of was breaking down. I think [01:04:20] my biggest clinical mistake was that ignoring those signs and pushing and pushing through, because [01:04:25] it’s not a sensible way to do things. Uh, and I’m proof that it isn’t. So [01:04:30] that would be my warning to people is don’t.

Don’t have insurance.

Yeah. And this is the other thing. Um, you [01:04:35] know, I would say, you know, the income protection side of things, the insurance [01:04:40] is yes, it’s expensive, but you know, when you look at it now, look at it from [01:04:45] where I’m standing from, it’s a it’s a hell of a lot more expensive now. So, you know, you [01:04:50] need to have these insurances in place. And I would say to younger dentists, you [01:04:55] know, when you’re coming into dentistry, you’ve got loads of companies trying to sell you things and insurance. [01:05:00] And this I would say, obviously you need all the basics. Yeah, it’s without [01:05:05] saying the indemnity and all that. But I would say in a really good income protection [01:05:10] do it from the start. And yes, you know it’s expensive and it’s another [01:05:15] monthly expense which you can deduct but and hopefully nothing. And you know, [01:05:20] God forbid anything happens. Hopefully it doesn’t. And you know, it runs its course and you’re happy. But if you need [01:05:25] that, you know, that’s when you’re going to miss it when you don’t have it. So I would say biggest, biggest [01:05:30] mistake kind of financially was not having that. Um, and I yeah, I went about it the other way and [01:05:35] I was like, you know, I’m going to go the property side of things and all that. But in hindsight it was probably foolish. [01:05:40]

And you’re the second dentist I’ve had on this week who had a. Yeah, something [01:05:45] that stopped them from practising. Wow. And didn’t have insurance. Yeah, I [01:05:50] thought I.

Was one of the only ones, but I’m.

Glad to know there’s plenty. I’m not the only one. There’s plenty of people, I think, especially when, [01:05:55] um, you know, there’s kids and mortgages and that. Then then it really does make a lot of sense, [01:06:00] doesn’t it? Yeah. Um, I mean, but there’s so many products you could buy, right? Critical [01:06:05] illness cover this, that and the other. Yeah, but I’m looking for a clinical mistake.

Clinical mistake?

An [01:06:10] actual clinical error.

An actual clinical. I would say, you know, I got into this [01:06:15] mindset of when I was doing this kind of six days a week, and [01:06:20] I want to try and maximise my earnings. I really heavily got into this. You know, I’m just [01:06:25] going to look on Instagram and what’s trending. I’m going to do that. And so I got into this oh [01:06:30] I’m going to do this full, you know, veneer smile cases. And it’s [01:06:35] not one of my strengths. Yeah I’d be very honest with you. It’s not one of my strengths.

Composite. [01:06:40] Or do you mean.

The porcelain veneers? Porcelain veneers. And I think [01:06:45] I started taking on a lot of cases which I shouldn’t have [01:06:50] taken on. The warning signs were there, you know, you had patients coming in. There was, [01:06:55] yes, they had stuff wrong with their smile and teeth and, you know, but it could have been maybe remedied [01:07:00] with less invasive work. But you’re always thinking about, oh, I could do this, and I could do that, and you could [01:07:05] earn X amount of money and the patients will, you know, for it. And yes, I want to do this. Um, [01:07:10] and I think that was my clinical mistake is taking on 1 or 2 of those patients and that that really bit [01:07:15] me because some of them really, you know, we put I remember one case well, she [01:07:20] was very happy. You know, we did the smile trial. Everything’s perfect. We [01:07:25] cemented it all in and she [01:07:30] looked at the mirror. And I’ll never forget this. She just burst [01:07:35] out into tears. She said, I hate them. After something I was like, and this [01:07:40] was like after, you know, three, four. Going back to the lab for the lad lab [01:07:45] shade match this was after.

So it’s not like I, I did it properly, but you know what [01:07:50] was wrong? It was my she wasn’t the right. I shouldn’t have done them in the first place. She was somebody [01:07:55] who had very high expectations. Maybe there was a bit of this body [01:08:00] dysmorphic disorder in there as well. And I kind of didn’t do a [01:08:05] proper history taking because I was I think I was too hell bent on, I’m [01:08:10] gonna get these veneers done and I’m gonna take I’m gonna take a before and after picture and I’m going to put it on Instagram, [01:08:15] I’m going to get a million likes. And, and I think I started getting into this mind [01:08:20] frame of like the social media dentistry. And I have to do that because that’s the way you earn money. And it was. [01:08:25] And I’m not gonna lie, it was, it was I’m not proud of it, but it was money driven decision. And it shouldn’t have [01:08:30] been, um, it should have definitely been. Look at the history, you know, [01:08:35] what are the red flags in this history and what.

Would they have been? What are you thinking, like some sort [01:08:40] of psychological issue?

Yeah. I think this patient.

We spent more time you would have got a spidey sense [01:08:45] for.

Yeah, I think I think if I spent more time actually digging into the motivations of why [01:08:50] the patient wanted specifically veneers. Because it could have. It could have been done with Invisalign [01:08:55] and it could have been done with like kind of bonding quite easily. Um, but and [01:09:00] it’s not that I didn’t mention that to her, but I actually allowed [01:09:05] her to talk me out of it. So. And I feel ashamed because I’m the professional. [01:09:10] I should be guiding her. But I felt that she actually guided me in a way and not not [01:09:15] not to kind of put the responsibility on somebody else because the responsibility was mine. I take full responsibility [01:09:20] for it as the professional, but I think my mindset was not [01:09:25] there with exploring the other things because I it was a confirmation bias. I was like, this [01:09:30] patient is having veneers and I’m doing veneers and I’ve sold the veneers and she’s signed the treatment plan, [01:09:35] and this is how much money I’m going to get and I’m gonna do it. And I think, you know, going [01:09:40] back because I went back and because what happened was.

What happened, what happened when she said, I hate them. What happened next? [01:09:45]

She complained. And, you know, I went to indemnity and there was a whole stressful [01:09:50] few months of writing letters back and forth. In the end, I gave her money back. So [01:09:55] not only didn’t I earn anything on that, but I actually lost probably 2 or 3 times what I had spent [01:10:00] on the chair side. Time getting her back five or 6 or 7 times after [01:10:05] work, during lunch to try and see what, what we could do to sort things out in the end. What [01:10:10] I did was, and what I was advised by the indemnity was, look, just, you know, ask her what she wants, which is [01:10:15] a full refund. And I gave it to her out of my own pocket and luckily, [01:10:20] touch wood, you know, it hasn’t gone anywhere after that. But that actually, [01:10:25] it put me actually, it put me off. Not just veneers. It put me off clinical dentistry for a long time. For [01:10:30] a few months afterwards, I was just a wreck. I was shying away [01:10:35] from even doing. I was just doing check ups and simple fillings. And you know, anybody who came to me with [01:10:40] anything, I was, oh, go see my colleague. I’ll refer you here. And I was like so shaken up about that. [01:10:45] So it really backfired. And I think all I needed to do was just stop, take a proper history. You [01:10:50] know, if somebody and and the red flags were I was probably [01:10:55] the sixth or seventh dentist, she’d come to see about this and other dentists hadn’t done it. And I didn’t [01:11:00] probe into why. Um, she had had several treatments before, [01:11:05] which she wasn’t happy with, and I didn’t probe into why. And [01:11:10] the main thing was that when I actually looked at her teeth, they were actually not that bad. Um, [01:11:15] so. And I didn’t probe that in a why do you want this unrealistic, [01:11:20] specific thing when actually your teeth are [01:11:25] not that bad? And maybe a little bit of, you know, you know, enlighten and a bit of bonding and [01:11:30] minimally invasive stuff could give you what you want. But I didn’t have the conversation. [01:11:35]

We’re discussing mistakes, right? That’s what we’re doing. We’re discussing mistakes. [01:11:40] Um, but okay, so she said I hate them. Did you offer to do them again or [01:11:45] did you by that time, had you figured?

I think what happened was by that time my [01:11:50] confidence was shot to bits.

So you didn’t want to do that?

I didn’t want to touch them because [01:11:55] I think and I tried redoing stuff like I offered to. I think what had [01:12:00] happened was she had she had lost confidence in me. Yeah. But [01:12:05] moreover, I had lost confidence in myself.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So I [01:12:10] would get to the point where when I saw the pop up from reception that she’s [01:12:15] sitting in reception.

Heart would sink.

I would start shaking. Yeah, [01:12:20] I anxiety so I would even even just like I would tell her, look, we’re just going [01:12:25] to have a consultation. I’m not doing anything. Don’t panic. It’s, you know, like take it [01:12:30] back to like, tell, show, do like you’re talking to like a child. It’s just. And I would be holding the mirror. [01:12:35] Not even a hand piece. I’ll be shaking. And I was like, do you know what you know? [01:12:40] And my and my colleagues at the practice, They’re really great guys. And [01:12:45] one of one of my friends and colleagues here, she’s at the practice. He’s been with me [01:12:50] a long time. He’s a great friend. He actually sat me down and said, listen, you know what? Don’t do anything else [01:12:55] because it’s not going to work well for you. You know, I’ll help you. I’ll talk to [01:13:00] her. You know, maybe she needs to see a different dentist. And this is where the camaraderie aspect of it [01:13:05] is so essential.

It’s interesting. After years of being a dentist, a situation like [01:13:10] that can can knock you off. Yeah. You know, and I guess it’s because after years of [01:13:15] being a dentist, you feel like you’ve figured it out. Yeah.

Yeah.

And you jumped [01:13:20] into something sort of with your eyes kind of closed. And it’s interesting, I like that. [01:13:25] That’s a that’s a good one. What about in tech?

Yeah. So I mean in tech I would say, [01:13:30] you know when you.

Mistakes every day.

Yeah. When you’re when you’re a founder [01:13:35] and you’re doing anything entrepreneurial to be honest, every day is a mistake. There’s [01:13:40] a mistake because you’re doing things for the first time. So, you know, I [01:13:45] would say main mistakes have been, you know, not talking to people sooner. [01:13:50] Actually kind of going in there with this attitude and ego like, oh, you [01:13:55] know, I’m a dentist, I’ve got this background, I’ve got all this knowledge. And, you know, I, I’m [01:14:00] the best person, you know. What I’ve learned is I’m probably the least best person to make decisions [01:14:05] when it comes to tech in itself, because I don’t have a tech background. [01:14:10] So, you know, with with a, with a Start-Up, what you’re doing is you’re [01:14:15] you’re learning and pivoting every day. Yeah. You know, you go there with one, you start [01:14:20] the day with one idea and then, you know, reality slaps you in the face. And actually, you know, this is not [01:14:25] going to work. So, I mean, every day is a mistake. And I [01:14:30] and again, it’s a cliche, people, people say, oh, it’s not a mistake. It’s a learning thing. But I think it’s [01:14:35] true. You have to reframe mistakes as kind of, okay, that didn’t [01:14:40] go so well, but let me take some learning aspects from that. So my next [01:14:45] mistake isn’t such a bad mistake. It’s less of a mistake. And what you’re doing is you’re [01:14:50] gradually whittling it down. So you know you’re always going to make mistakes. But they’re, you know, you [01:14:55] need to make sure the mistake isn’t catastrophic, that you can always come back from a mistake and you can [01:15:00] play the game again. So I think that’s what I’m having to learn is how to deal with uncertainty. Um, [01:15:05] and it’s very different from being a full time associate where you’ve got like this kind of income [01:15:10] coming in every day. So it’s a very different ball game because you have to be very comfortable with that [01:15:15] uncertainty and not knowing the answer.

Yeah.

Um, but what I’ve learned is that when [01:15:20] you’re in that space, in that head space, when you’re ruminating on stuff and [01:15:25] you’re worried and you’re anxious, the best thing is to actually talk to don’t, don’t, don’t bottle it up, [01:15:30] talk to people. You know, if you’ve got a problem, if I’ve got a specific technical problem, I [01:15:35] will pick the phone up and I will talk to the development team. And I will say, listen, you know what? This is [01:15:40] bugging me. Can you tell me in layman’s terms, what’s the solution to this? And [01:15:45] is is what I’m proposing, you know, is it possible? And if it’s not possible, [01:15:50] tell me what the workaround to that is. You know, and and talking to people, talking [01:15:55] to the right experts, as I said, you know, you don’t know all the answers, but there are people who’ve been through [01:16:00] that got, you know, got the t shirt, so to speak. Uh, and people who have made the [01:16:05] same mistakes you’re making now, and they’ve lived to tell the tale. So I think it’s having that humbleness and [01:16:10] putting your ego down a bit and saying, look, you know, I don’t know the answers to this. [01:16:15] Um, and yeah, I’m out of my depth, you know. Yeah. I don’t, I don’t have this expertise. [01:16:20] And you do. So please explain.

To me like an aha moment in tech. [01:16:25] Yeah. Like what did you think it was like. And then what, what what situation made you [01:16:30] realise. Yeah it’s a different way like because you know I can get my head [01:16:35] around clinical situations. But by the way, we’ve got a couple of developers upstairs, right? I [01:16:40] find it difficult, very difficult, the quality of the developers like [01:16:45] a huge question, right? Like how one guy can do ten [01:16:50] people’s work if he’s thinking, right. Yeah, yeah. Tell me any insights like with, [01:16:55] with regards to tech itself.

I think with regards to tech, what I’ve, what [01:17:00] I’ve found is that it’s always good to deal with, you know, rather [01:17:05] than say, I’m going to talk to a developer and I’m gonna, you [01:17:10] know, because when I was initially doing this, I mean, I tried kind of, um, you know, freelancing, [01:17:15] freelancing platforms and this, this stuff, there’s platforms there where you could kind [01:17:20] of, you know, have an interview with, like a freelancer. And I would be like, this is my idea. [01:17:25] And they’d be like, yeah, I can do this, this, this, this, this. And what I found is and that’s one of the mistakes, [01:17:30] is I had to cut those people quite quickly because, you know, when you’re dealing in [01:17:35] tech, it’s very much a team sport. You can have somebody who’s a [01:17:40] full stack developer and who could do everything from start to finish. But what you want [01:17:45] is you actually want your work distributed throughout a team, where each [01:17:50] person has a specific goal and a small part. And then overall, [01:17:55] you want a project head or a or a project manager [01:18:00] who’s not working on the project per se, not doing the coding, but is managing [01:18:05] that team. So it’s more of like a what’s called a squad model. So a squad model is, [01:18:10] you know, you and this is what we’re doing with our developers that we’re using is we’re using [01:18:15] the squad model where I have a project manager and I say, this is what I want to do.

He will then distribute [01:18:20] that amongst the talent in his team, because you can have somebody who’s, [01:18:25] again, like a general. I use the analogy like you can have a general dentist or you can have an endodontist or an implant [01:18:30] specialist. So I would say that, it’s better to say have a practice, [01:18:35] have have have the have the, you know, project manager and let him distribute [01:18:40] your project to somebody who’s really good at, say, the front end stuff [01:18:45] and then somebody who, who’s really good at the back end stuff. And that way what you’re [01:18:50] going to get is you’re going to get something which is a higher quality because these people, yes, they can do everything, [01:18:55] but it’s human nature that there’s always one thing that somebody enjoys doing more than [01:19:00] everything. And what you enjoy doing, you’re best at it. So even if you can do everything, you’re [01:19:05] always going to produce a better product. If you if you’re doing something that you enjoy. So that would be my, [01:19:10] my, my thing is that, you know, make sure you distribute it amongst the team because then you’ve always [01:19:15] got these biases going on. You’ve got these internal biases of people. So one person, one [01:19:20] developer may say, look, I’ve done this and I’m really happy with it. And their team-mate will say, [01:19:25] you know, it’s good. But you know, what have you thought about this way? And then it becomes a collaborative effect. [01:19:30] So that’s, that would be my, my input on that.

But now that you’ve left [01:19:35] your reflections on dentistry, because I really believe that that you only really find [01:19:40] out what you loved about it once you’ve stopped. Yeah. Um, and one thing that surprised me a lot [01:19:45] when I left dentistry, I left in 2012, was how hard it is [01:19:50] to make money outside of dentistry. It’s hard. Yeah. I mean, we’d [01:19:55] already started the business, but what are your reflections about that? You know, now that you’re [01:20:00] out of dentistry?

Yeah, I think, you know, I would say as dentist, [01:20:05] it’s.

What do you miss?

I miss the people.

Yeah. Me too.

I miss the people. I miss. [01:20:10] I miss the kind of, you know, banter with the [01:20:15] patients, with the team, you know, with, with, with the nurse. And it’s a very [01:20:20] it’s a very unique dynamic because, you know, you’re in a room for most of the day and [01:20:25] you’re there, you’re spending more time there than you do with your own family, and you [01:20:30] get to really know your nurse, and you get to know your reception, and you get to know your [01:20:35] colleagues. And it’s kind of like the agenda. And you read the.

Agenda, the conversation agenda. [01:20:40]

100%. And being the dentist there, obviously, you know, it’s a bit of an ego trip because [01:20:45] all the everybody’s talking around your stuff and suddenly you come out and you’re like, actually, [01:20:50] you’re like a very small cog and nobody really gives a gives a crap. And like, [01:20:55] so that’s kind of like the that was the humbling thing. So I really missed the kind of that [01:21:00] routine of getting up, you know, putting on your, your tunic, putting on your loops [01:21:05] and then going and talking to all these people and finding out, you know, how their lives going and, you know, [01:21:10] how’s your patient’s life going and what happened in her life last week and then and [01:21:15] now you’re saying, you know, I’ll see you again tomorrow and that kind of routine and yes, [01:21:20] the money side of things, obviously, we’re very lucky that we have a profession where, you know.

I know [01:21:25] it’s hard work, dude. I know it’s hard work. I know you broke your neck doing it. Yeah, yeah, but it’s easy money. Yeah, [01:21:30] in a way. Yeah. Like be nice to people. Yeah. Don’t hurt people. Yeah. [01:21:35] And you’ll be okay.

100%.

What about. What was the bit about dentistry that you realised you hated?

I [01:21:40] think, you know, with me, I love the people aspect of it. And [01:21:45] to me, because in dentistry, I learned to [01:21:50] love dentistry over the years. It wasn’t my first love. Yeah. You know, so I learned to [01:21:55] love it. I got towards the end of dentistry. I started getting to the point [01:22:00] where I didn’t enjoy a lot of the clinical work. I liked the bits that I was [01:22:05] good at, like I liked the cerec. But I found I started cutting out other stuff [01:22:10] and I was quite spoilt in my practice because we had specialists there. So [01:22:15] when an endo would come in, I’d be like, ah, it’s not, I don’t enjoy endo, you know, I’m gonna just give [01:22:20] this to the endodontist oral surgery. I’ll give this to the oral surgeon. So I towards the [01:22:25] end, I started getting a bit jaded with the clinical work. Yeah, and it’s [01:22:30] more of the complaint side of things.

That side of course.

That that really.

What you said about, you know, [01:22:35] if you’re not there, you’re not you’re not working. Like the turning up piece. Yeah. I find hard [01:22:40] as a dentist. Yeah. Keep turning up every day at 9 a.m., like 8 a.m., whatever time it is. Yeah. [01:22:45] Day in, day out. Yeah. And, you know, it gets monotonous. I like to stay up at night sometimes. [01:22:50] Yeah. Yeah. And you can’t do that as a dentist. I mean, you can, but it’s not a good idea. Right. [01:22:55] Yeah. Um, that side of it, the bit about business that I hate is [01:23:00] meetings. Yeah. I don’t like meetings.

Yeah. They can be very unproductive as well if they’re not structured [01:23:05] well. Boring. Yeah, yeah.

Boring even. I find you know what? What amazes me, man? [01:23:10] Even if it’s my company. Yeah. My subject.

Yeah.

Our [01:23:15] employees. Yeah. Even those meetings I hate. Yeah. Yeah. And. And what really gets to me [01:23:20] is what must they be feeling like? You know, it’s not. It’s not their company. It’s not [01:23:25] their subject. They’re just being paid to be there sort of thing. Yeah. I hate meetings. Yeah. [01:23:30] I mean, how many meetings is one of the best things about the industry?

I think this is the one thing I [01:23:35] found as well, that when I stopped and then suddenly, you know, with the Start-Up, you’re [01:23:40] having so many meetings in the day, and then you have this calendar, and most people.

Have [01:23:45] got meetings all day.

Like most people in business.

That’s what.

They’re doing. Yeah. 9 to 5 and.

Meeting after [01:23:50] meeting after meeting after meeting. Yeah. It does my head in, man. Maybe ADHD whatever. You know [01:23:55] like some of that in it.

And I’m somebody who I like. You know when you have a meeting I’m almost like, you know. [01:24:00] Right. What’s the agenda? Bang bang, bang bang. Let’s just get on with it. I’m not even.

Happy with the. Hi. How’s everyone [01:24:05] doing? Peace. You know, it does my head, you know. Yeah, but but but you realise that’s [01:24:10] important as well. It is that all of that’s important.

Yeah, that’s one thing actually, which I think really is [01:24:15] a transferable skill which I found helpful from dentistry, is spending all those years talking [01:24:20] to patients and talking to people and trying to calm down nervous patients. It helps [01:24:25] in a, in a, you know, Start-Up and business environment when you have to just talk to different people. [01:24:30]

It’s interesting then transferrable skills, because a lot of people are looking to either [01:24:35] leave or cut down. What would you say they are? That piece that you can talk to to [01:24:40] lots of different types of people? Yeah.

What else I would say, you know, talking [01:24:45] to people. Yes. But it’s is that attention to detail that you have because as [01:24:50] a dentist, obviously everything is so precise and you’re doing precise work and [01:24:55] there’s a certain mindset that you develop clinically that when [01:25:00] you actually take it into another arena, like business or talking to people [01:25:05] or kind of, you know, what I’m finding now is that I’m taking [01:25:10] that same precision that I did in like a crown prep. And when I’m trying to do [01:25:15] something with a business or talking to someone, I have that same precise agenda [01:25:20] in my mindset. Okay, I’m going to a meeting. You know, let me find out every little piece [01:25:25] of information I can. Let me do my research. Let me make sure that I’m asking the right questions so [01:25:30] that a perfectionist type of mindset. So a lot of dentists, they’re perfectionists. That’s that’s kind [01:25:35] of what got you into dental school and passed all these hurdles. You have to be a bit of a perfectionist. So that’s [01:25:40] one transferable skill that that’s really useful, because a lot of times you find that, you know, [01:25:45] when you can really engage another person and they know that you’re listening to them and they know that you’re [01:25:50] asking really good questions, it opens them up and it opens up a lot of business opportunities. [01:25:55]

If you go to someone and you’re like, yeah, no, this is, you know, this is what I want. And you’re kind of talking at them [01:26:00] and you’re not quite listening. And they can gauge that. You’re not very open with what you’re saying, and you [01:26:05] haven’t really done your research and, you know, they switch off. So I would because my, [01:26:10] my one fear was that, you know, I’m trained to be a dentist. I can’t do dentistry anymore. What am I going to do? You [01:26:15] know, and I always I always had this fear that I used to say this to people that, oh, you [01:26:20] know, in dentistry, there’s no transferrable skills. You know, once you’re a dentist, you have to be a dentist. It’s not like, you know, you [01:26:25] know, computer coding or finance. Like you can’t just go move to another country and work from home and do your coding [01:26:30] and do all this. But actually, you know, having left now and reflected on that and having had that identity [01:26:35] crisis type thing, it’s forced me to look at the transferable skills with a different frame of [01:26:40] mind. And it’s really, really amazing how many transferable. We’re very lucky, actually. [01:26:45] There’s a lot of transferable skills, and these skills are very hard to replicate from other, other [01:26:50] professions.

What keeps you up at night?

Keeps [01:26:55] me up at night. I would actually say, you know, ironically, it is tech. It is AI and not [01:27:00] not from a, you know, I want to make a business out of it. But what effect it’s going to have on my kids. [01:27:05]

Oh yeah.

Yeah, yeah, it’s it’s scary in a way, because obviously everybody [01:27:10] knows that, you know, social media at a certain age it’s not good. And you get all this issue [01:27:15] about kind of, you know, I didn’t have to worry about kind of, you know, bullying was only in school, [01:27:20] you know, now it’s like people are bullied, kids are bullied on social media. And then with AI, [01:27:25] you know, the frightening thing is that AI is becoming so good [01:27:30] now with kind of faking stuff, videos and, and and kind [01:27:35] of it’s, you know, we’re okay because our brains have already formed. [01:27:40] We’ve gone past those formative years. So if we see something, [01:27:45] we can critically appraise that and say, okay, that’s AI. It’s not quite realistic. My [01:27:50] kids, they are they are going to be formed by this media. [01:27:55] They’re going to be formed by AI content. So their brains, when they come to our [01:28:00] age, they’re already going to have this programming in there where they may not be able to distinguish so [01:28:05] easily what’s fact and what’s fiction.

Well, I don’t think give it three years. I don’t think we’re [01:28:10] going to be able to.

Yeah, probably not. And that’s what’s scary is I want them to kind of I [01:28:15] don’t I don’t want it. I don’t want to come across as like a Luddite that, you know, you have. No, [01:28:20] no, technology is bad. Of course it’s amazing. It’s what you do with it. But I want [01:28:25] to kind of give my kids that kind of upbringing where I want them to be kids as long as possible. [01:28:30] I want them to go run around in a field and play up a tree and do all this stuff. [01:28:35] And we’re trying our best to limit all these screen time and things like this. So, you know, at [01:28:40] home, I mean, it’s we I’ve got used to it now, but we’re really militant with TV to the point that [01:28:45] my, my wife and I mean, we I can’t tell you the last time we sat and watched TV because we sit down and we talk [01:28:50] to them and we read to them. I’m a big advocate because I’ve got Kindle and stuff, but to me, I still see that my [01:28:55] son’s looking at me and he’s like, that’s a screen. So I always have this thing that when I go home, you know, [01:29:00] and and it’s hard now with the Start-Up because it’s 24 over seven. But I put the phone away and I’m like, [01:29:05] let me read in front of me, even if I’m reading my own book, but I’m reading in front of them so they they see [01:29:10] what’s dad doing, you know, he’s reading. Let me come and sit next to him and be like, what are you reading? And I’d be like, I’m reading [01:29:15] this, and I’ll kind of explain it to them in a, in a in kids language. So what keeps me up at night? [01:29:20] I think it is the pace of change in technology, and it’s a real big opportunity [01:29:25] with AI now. But it’s also it can potentially be a very destructive technology [01:29:30] as well, if it’s not used in the right way because.

It’s so powerful.

Yeah, it’s very powerful.

But [01:29:35] when I say what keeps you up at night? What I really meant was in the business. Like in the business. What what bothers [01:29:40] you? What’s what’s the is it competitive?

Yeah. What bothers me is I’m going to wake up tomorrow [01:29:45] and I’m gonna, you know, turn on my computer and I’m gonna see [01:29:50] what I’ve proposed.

Already finished.

One company’s already done it. Yeah. And, [01:29:55] you know, they’re like a big.

Half the price.

Half the price, and.

Twice as good.

Twice as good. And [01:30:00] what I what I wanted to do, which would have taken me like six months. They’d done in two weeks. Yeah, yeah. [01:30:05] And then, um.

That’s everyone in business has that.

And I’m.

Thinking.

Oh, [01:30:10] crap. You know, like, back to the drawing board. Yeah. So that’s my biggest fear. And [01:30:15] that really does keep me up at night where, you know, I’m worried. And this is the [01:30:20] amazing thing. I used to think in dentistry, I’ve got so much to worry about. You’ve got patience, you’ve got this and all. That kind [01:30:25] of pales in comparison in a bit, because at least you know that whatever’s going to happen, nobody’s going to nick your patience. I [01:30:30] mean, you still have to go there and do the Crown prep. So yeah, that’s that’s what keeps me up at night whether I’m still going [01:30:35] to have a viable business tomorrow.

And the weird thing about it is that, let’s say everything [01:30:40] goes really well. And in six years time, you’re profitable and all that. [01:30:45] It could all go to 0 in 6 years and one day time when the same thing happens [01:30:50] again. And that’s not the case in dentistry. Like you’ve you’ve got that business [01:30:55] and that has a value. Yeah. You know it’s not going to zero. Yeah. [01:31:00]

The nature of the game is not going to change.

Yeah. Yeah. And you said you considered opening a practice [01:31:05] before doing this.

Yeah.

Um. What [01:31:10] made you? Was it? Was it the scratching, the software itch that made you think, [01:31:15] rather than opening and running a practice without being the the the practitioner? Yeah. You’re going [01:31:20] to do software. Was it the fact that your parents had pushed you into dentistry?

I think there’s an [01:31:25] aspect. There’s an aspect of, you know, you know, I’m going to show everyone, like, you know, I wanted [01:31:30] to do something from the beginning, and now I’m gonna, you know, show everyone that, yeah, I can [01:31:35] be successful at that as well. So there’s an ego thing behind it as well that. Yeah, I want to kind of prove [01:31:40] that. Yeah, I want to scratch that itch. Yeah. Um, that’s one aspect of it. The other aspect [01:31:45] of it is, you know, it’s not you know, I’m a firm believer that if you want to [01:31:50] do something, you really have to enjoy and be passionate about what [01:31:55] you’re doing. Yeah. Um, in order to, to kind of, you know, be be good at it [01:32:00] and have the endurance and the stamina because it’s a lot of stamina. You have to, you know, setback after [01:32:05] setback, as you know, you know, you have to you have to. It’s the it’s the long haul. And I don’t [01:32:10] think you’re going to be successful if your heart’s not in it. And for me, I mean, I [01:32:15] loved being an associate, and I saw the hardships people had as practice owners. And, [01:32:20] you know, that aspect of kind of owning a practice, it just and [01:32:25] it never I’m somebody who I would say, never say never.

I mean, things always change. [01:32:30] But my heart wasn’t fully in that. And I didn’t want to go into something without [01:32:35] giving it my all, because if I wanted to open a practice just the way my mindset is, I want it to [01:32:40] be the best practice and I want it to be amazing. I just don’t want to open it just for the [01:32:45] sake of opening it and earning some money or having a business. I always got this thing where [01:32:50] I want to be the best at something, and I felt that I had this internal passion for tech [01:32:55] and AI, and I just really wanted to pursue that because I felt this is [01:33:00] a pivotal moment. And, you know, you could yeah, you could always, you know, open a practice at some point. But this, this [01:33:05] moment, in this inflection point we’re at now, it’s not going to come again. So that’s why I [01:33:10] wanted to do this. Yeah. So it’s scratching an itch, but it’s also a calculated risk where I’ve [01:33:15] looked at the kind of inflection point we’re at now and it’s an opportunity. [01:33:20] And I just felt I had to take that opportunity because I didn’t want to look back and regret that I didn’t [01:33:25] do it.

Amazing, man. The you know, the risk regret [01:33:30] equation. Yeah, is an interesting one. You know, that’s that’s where you’re at. [01:33:35]

Yeah. I mean risk risk is actually I’d say one more thing about risk. You know, risk is, is quite [01:33:40] is relative. Because if you look at it, I was always told, you know, you know, dentistry [01:33:45] is a very safe profession. You know, you’re always going to have a job, you’re always going to have income coming in. And [01:33:50] now what’s happened with my neck? The fact is actually there is risk in dentistry as well. [01:33:55] You know, one day you maybe you can’t do that. I mean, there’s a risk with everything. There’s a risk crossing the road. So [01:34:00] I think risk is relative. And I think you have to become comfortable with risk, and we’re very lucky [01:34:05] in dentistry. But I would say it’s not risk free. So make sure if you’re, you know, people who are [01:34:10] still in the thick of it now, make sure that you’re not only just focusing on dentistry, but [01:34:15] you take a bit of a step back and, and just kind of look at the risk profile [01:34:20] of your life in general and try and de-risk it as much as you can away from just the dental [01:34:25] side of things. That would be my piece of advice for, you know, younger colleagues or, you know, peers at the [01:34:30] moment.

Is there a website?

Yeah. So we have a website. It’s, uh ww [01:34:35] Dental.

Com Dental.

Dental. So it’s Dental. Cfo [01:34:40] Dental CFO. Com and we have a website and, uh, we’ll, we’ll be [01:34:45] working on our product and we’ll be launching soon. So if anybody’s interested, just drop [01:34:50] your email. I’d be happy to chat, chat you through it and explain what we’re doing.

Let’s end it on the [01:34:55] usual questions. Yeah.

The deep ones.

I’ve got that deep fantasy [01:35:00] dinner party. Three guests.

Oh, yeah.

Dead or alive?

Okay, I would say number [01:35:05] one. Um. Nikola Tesla, Nikola Tesla. [01:35:10] Just just just to get into the mindset, you know, of somebody who kind of was [01:35:15] so clear about how he imagined the future and so obsessed with it, you know, even [01:35:20] when, like, the whole world didn’t really it was pretty much against his ideas. And he didn’t have a great life. [01:35:25] But, you know, somebody who was so obsessed and clear about the future, and he built a lot of the infrastructure [01:35:30] to get into the mindset of the guy. I think number two, um, would be, uh, [01:35:35] Doctor Fei-Fei Li. And if you’re familiar, she’s actually the ex-chief Google [01:35:40] AI scientist who worked at Google Cloud, and she was one of the early pioneers. So she actually, [01:35:45] um, was a pioneer of something called ImageNet, which was actually the background [01:35:50] of how the very early wave of these AI learning models were trained. They [01:35:55] were trained on that software. Um, and just to pick her brains about how [01:36:00] she balances this scientific [01:36:05] innovation and this powerful technology of AI with social responsibility, [01:36:10] because she’s very big in kind of ethical AI and human centred AI. And even back then she [01:36:15] was kind of saying about how dangerous it could be.

So it’s how she’s managed to balance the kind [01:36:20] of the innovative aspects of doing that with the social responsibility side [01:36:25] of things. That’s very interesting. Um, the third one, I would say this is more from, [01:36:30] I would say more like a philosophical or spiritual bent. I would say Lao Tzu, the ancient [01:36:35] Chinese philosopher. Just because, you know, his his kind of I love his philosophy [01:36:40] of kind of ego and integrity, and he spoke a lot about [01:36:45] doing less, but doing it with more intention. So [01:36:50] rather than doing lots of things, just focus down. But what you’re doing, do it with more intention. [01:36:55] And I think his philosophy, you can take it into anything. I mean, you can take it into business, [01:37:00] into your spiritual life, into how you teach your kids. So I really [01:37:05] love his his work. And I think his, his work, especially how it can [01:37:10] pertain to kind of leadership, is he his philosophy is that, you know, leaders are [01:37:15] often often quiet, they’re often grounded, and they’re often [01:37:20] purpose driven. So I think if you can put those things into, you know, in any anybody can put [01:37:25] those into their life, it would be a positive.

How would you like to be remembered?

I [01:37:30] I [01:37:35] would say I would, I would like to be remembered as somebody [01:37:40] who turned adversity [01:37:45] into a purpose. And I would like to be remembered as a father [01:37:50] who showed his kids what in a resilience [01:37:55] and reinvention. Looks like a founder who kind of stood [01:38:00] up for change in dentistry and not just for profit, but for progress. [01:38:05] And I would say I want to be remembered as somebody who helped [01:38:10] his fellow peers and clinicians, you know, feel less overwhelmed [01:38:15] by business and technology and leadership. I think if I could, if [01:38:20] I could, somebody could turn around and ten, 15, 20 years time and say, you know, thank [01:38:25] you. You know, you’ve really helped us, helped that with your software or whatever, whatever [01:38:30] it is you do, that would be amazing.

It’s very impressive, man. [01:38:35] It’s a it’s a it’s a story. Right. It’s it’s it’s a, it’s an [01:38:40] interesting story that you’ve got, it’s very impressive that you’re like sort of rising out of the, [01:38:45] the nightmare that it is. Yeah. I mean, I think all of us as dentists [01:38:50] have that in the little thing in the back of our mind of what if something happens that [01:38:55] I can’t practice anymore? Yeah. Um. So. Well done. Best of. Best of luck [01:39:00] to you.

Thank you very.

Much. And I’ll be keeping keeping an eye on you. Hopefully.

Thank you. Sir.

The whole thing, [01:39:05] uh, works out really well for you. Thanks, man.

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

This [01:39:10] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one [01:39:15] on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:39:20] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Thanks [01:39:25] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:39:30] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what [01:39:35] we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [01:39:40]

If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [01:39:45] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so so much for listening. [01:39:50] Thanks.

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Payman Langroudi: This podcast comes to you from Enlighten Enlightens, an advanced teeth whitening system [00:00:05] that guarantees results on every single patient. We’ve treated hundreds of thousands of patients [00:00:10] now and have a really clear understanding of what it takes to get every patient to that delighted [00:00:15] state that we want to get to. If you want to understand teeth whitening in much further detail, join [00:00:20] us for online training only takes an hour completely free. Even if you never use [00:00:25] enlighten as a whitening system, you’ll learn loads and loads about whitening, how to talk about it, [00:00:30] how to involve your teams. Join us enlighten online training comm.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [00:00:45] leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Alisha Sagar and Natalie onto [00:01:00] the podcast. It’s a new format of podcast. Haven’t even got a name for it. What [00:01:05] should we call it? You guys can. You guys can decide the name. It could be like future. [00:01:10]

Alisha Sagar: Like sidekick. I don’t know something. What do you think? Sidekick?

Payman Langroudi: The. [00:01:15] But the format. What? The format is. What the idea of the format is, is that we get [00:01:20] two young dentists or two young students or whatever, and, um, talk [00:01:25] to them about obviously where they’re at, how they got there, but then also repeat the podcast in [00:01:30] three years time. Talk about hopes and dreams, and then in three years time, see if the hopes and dreams come [00:01:35] true.

Alisha Sagar: Did they really make it?

Payman Langroudi: Did they make it? Did they? And my my thesis is is just by [00:01:40] saying it, you’re going to want to make it more just by putting it down, [00:01:45] making it real. That’s my first thesis. My second thesis is I’m going [00:01:50] to try my best to make things happen for you guys as well, to see, to see whether I can help. So [00:01:55] what should we call it?

Alisha Sagar: Um, I like, did they make it sound quite. [00:02:00] It’s good.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, we can come back at the end.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah. By the end [00:02:05] of this, we’re going to have a good a good name. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you two are best friends from [00:02:10] uni?

Alisha Sagar: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: We are kings.

Alisha Sagar: Yes. Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Actually, you know what we should do? We should rewind [00:02:15] right before you got into dental school. What did you think dental school was going to be like and [00:02:20] how different was it?

Alisha Sagar: Um, I think I kind [00:02:25] of wanted to be a dentist since around high school, like year, year 11 ish [00:02:30] and I follow. So it’s quite funny because at first it was I wanted [00:02:35] to be a lawyer because I thought I was going to be really good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, literally that was the reason. And then I think [00:02:40] I quickly realised that humanities subjects weren’t, you know, I was very strong in them and I [00:02:45] enjoyed sciences more. And I didn’t grow up with the typical Indian parents who were like, you have to be [00:02:50] a doctor, a dentist or a lawyer, otherwise we’re going to disown you. Um, they were very my dad always said to me, [00:02:55] whatever you do, just do what’s going to make you happy. And even if that means you’re a garbage collector, he said [00:03:00] that to me. Um, but funnily enough, he put the idea of being a dentist in my head. So I think there was some [00:03:05] reverse psychology going on there. Um, and it was actually when I, I had orthodontic treatment [00:03:10] when I was younger. And my last appointment, as we were leaving the dental practice, my dad just said to me, have [00:03:15] you ever thought about doing dentistry? And this was sort of in year nine, year ten, when like, you’re kind of starting to [00:03:20] think about what you want to do in your GCSEs. And that kind of stuck with me. And I was like, you know what? I think [00:03:25] I would probably enjoy that because I always used to go into the dental practice looking around, wondering what they were doing. [00:03:30] So that put the initial idea in my head, and I’m the type of person where when I have an idea in my [00:03:35] head, I kind of stick with it until something really puts me off it. So that was the initial, [00:03:40] um, yeah thing that got me into dentistry. And then I did some work experience. [00:03:45] Really, really enjoyed it. Did a about.

Payman Langroudi: Did you enjoy about it? Because I remember doing work experience. [00:03:50] I got to see what the hell was going on. Yeah, I’m sitting there. What was so good about it?

Alisha Sagar: True. I do [00:03:55] think, looking back at it now, I didn’t know what was going on and I probably forgot why I enjoyed it so [00:04:00] much.

Payman Langroudi: Just liked the guy or.

Alisha Sagar: Whatever. I did two weeks of shadowing in Zambia, which is where I [00:04:05] live, and then I did one week in the UK and I just really enjoyed [00:04:10] a lot of the interactions that the dentist had with patients. I really liked that sort of looking [00:04:15] at that rapport that they built and just confidence as well, like seeing a lot of people walk [00:04:20] out feeling a lot more confident in themselves. So that was like a big thing.

Payman Langroudi: You grew up in Zambia?

Alisha Sagar: Yeah, I grew up in [00:04:25] Zambia, so I was.

Payman Langroudi: There till 18.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah. No no, no I was there till my GCSE so [00:04:30] 16 and then I came to the UK, went to boarding school for A-levels. Um, [00:04:35] because education is not very good in Zambia, there’s not a lot of good schools. And so the school that [00:04:40] I was at was okay until GCSE. I had to do a lot of extra tuition, stuff like that. But [00:04:45] A-levels was kind of like not, not going to cut it. Yeah. So that was when yeah, [00:04:50] I came to the UK. So I was here for two years and then stayed on for university. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:04:55] what surprised you the most about Dental Dental school?

Alisha Sagar: Um, I think the people I [00:05:00] think I met a lot of people who are very similar to me. I don’t know if it’s [00:05:05] dentists in general, maybe kings. There was a lot of people who I met in [00:05:10] dental school who had very similar upbringing, very similar values, and I found that difficult when I was growing up, I [00:05:15] didn’t I had just maybe 1 or 2 really good friends, um, at my school in Zambia and then in, in [00:05:20] the UK as well, who have kind of still in touch with, um, but I think when I came to [00:05:25] King’s and, you know, it’s 150 of us, but we all got on really well and I found that [00:05:30] we were all very similar. So I think that was like the biggest thing for me was the people.

Payman Langroudi: Liked it for that reason. [00:05:35]

Alisha Sagar: Yeah, I think the people definitely made dental school for me. Over, over.

Payman Langroudi: What about the course itself? [00:05:40] Was it what you expected?

Alisha Sagar: Um, I think first year was a bit of a shock because it [00:05:45] was obviously not. Not dentistry. You’re just learning biomedical sciences and stuff like [00:05:50] that. And, um, I found it quite difficult. I’m not gonna lie. I found first year quite difficult and tough. And I think when you come [00:05:55] out of school where you’ve got the best grades and you’re going into dental school and you’re finding it [00:06:00] hard and you’re surrounded by everyone who’s just as smart or smarter than you. I [00:06:05] think that was also, um, a bit tricky. So I think that was a bit. Yeah. First year in terms of the [00:06:10] course itself, I found quite difficult. I thought we were going to jump in and start doing fillings in first year, [00:06:15] very hands on. Um, but first year was very theory based. Very. I’ve [00:06:20] forgotten everything basically from first year, to put it that way, nothing related to dentistry. So that was [00:06:25] yeah, that was not what I expected in terms of the course. But then from then on it got better when [00:06:30] when Hanson started getting introduced, that was sort of what I saw and imagined dental [00:06:35] school to be like.

Natalie Gabrawi: I think because Covid hit us end of first year as well.

Payman Langroudi: End of your first year, was.

Natalie Gabrawi: It first [00:06:40] year. Yeah. And then yeah, because I think we did our final exams in first year online. [00:06:45]

Alisha Sagar: Yeah. It was in I think we started university in September and then around April [00:06:50] time, we were we were off. We only had like one exam in person, which was our [00:06:55] first summative. Um, and then, yeah, went all of us just got sent home. All [00:07:00] of a sudden.

Natalie Gabrawi: You got sent home with me for a little bit because you couldn’t go back to Zambia. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s when [00:07:05] you got to dental school.

Natalie Gabrawi: So the reason why I wanted to do dentistry, so [00:07:10] slightly different to Alicia, but I grew up in a very medical family, parents [00:07:15] or doctors, and they were like, don’t do medicine. I’ve seen that. I’ve seen them do night shifts, [00:07:20] seen seen how difficult it was for them. They’re like, we don’t want you to do it. But I also grew up with a twin sister [00:07:25] who does the opposite of my parents say, so she did medicine and then. Yeah. And then I was [00:07:30] really self-conscious of my teeth growing up. I had my two front teeth. My brother and sister would call me [00:07:35] Bugs Bunny as a little kid, which as a kid, yeah, it does hit you a little [00:07:40] bit. And then I had braces growing up, had them taken off, and it improved my self-confidence [00:07:45] so much and made me smile. And I think I’m quite known for my smile now. So I do think [00:07:50] that I just want to have that impact on someone else’s life.

Payman Langroudi: And where did you grow up?

Natalie Gabrawi: I grew up in Sheffield. [00:07:55]

Payman Langroudi: Sheffield.

Natalie Gabrawi: Up north.

Payman Langroudi: I was in Sheffield last weekend.

Natalie Gabrawi: No way.

Payman Langroudi: The BSA?

Natalie Gabrawi: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The sports. [00:08:00]

Natalie Gabrawi: Sports day. Yeah. Yeah. Love, Sheffield. Wouldn’t go back there. But I do do love [00:08:05] it as my hometown. My parents are still.

Payman Langroudi: Why do you think you’re a Southerner now? That’s it. You’re staying down.

Natalie Gabrawi: Here? Yeah. [00:08:10] Down south, people say, oh, you’re northerner. Up north, people say you’re Southerner.

Payman Langroudi: And you want to.

Natalie Gabrawi: Say, I do want [00:08:15] to stay down south eventually. Yeah, just long term. I think my brother’s here, and there’s a lot more [00:08:20] going on in London than in Sheffield. So I’ve just got so used to it being at uni for five years [00:08:25] as well. Yeah. You can’t. London hooks you. You can’t leave. Leave the city once you come. [00:08:30] But yeah I do.

Payman Langroudi: Although both of you weren’t growing up in London, so coming [00:08:35] to London for uni is quite a good idea. But yeah, a lot of people who grow up in London stay in London. I think that’s a mistake. [00:08:40] You know, they did you on that subject. Did you reinvent yourself from [00:08:45] being a school girl to when you arrive from Sheffield to London? Definitely. Did you end up as this [00:08:50] other person? Like, what was the person that.

Natalie Gabrawi: You came out?

Payman Langroudi: Came out in King’s, [00:08:55] I think.

Natalie Gabrawi: Yeah. Growing up north, I was quite the minority. And then in coming [00:09:00] to London, suddenly everyone’s everyone’s the same. Yeah. And I do think [00:09:05] there’s. You can be yourself more in London. You’re less judged because there’s so many different personalities. And [00:09:10] I think just being at uni in general, you have that space and that freedom. I moved [00:09:15] away from home for the first time, so that was a big thing. I learnt how to cook for myself. Still learning? [00:09:20] Yeah. So yeah, you just you I think you. Yeah, grow to be yourself a bit more.

Payman Langroudi: And you two [00:09:25] are living together now? Yes. But you said during college, during university you [00:09:30] were more with the non dentists and you were with the dentist.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah. I didn’t have many [00:09:35] non dentist friends, but Natalie was the one who sort of.

Payman Langroudi: So which kind of groups were you in. Humanities like lawyers and [00:09:40] this.

Natalie Gabrawi: So my accommodation. So my flatmates in first year none of them were dentists [00:09:45] So I had war studies, I had English. I had a few medics as well, and we just got on [00:09:50] really well. I was quite lucky to get on with my flatmates and then became friends with them. I did end up living with [00:09:55] a medic so still in the medical field because of guy’s campus. But [00:10:00] over time I realised that I hang out with dentists more so although I didn’t live with dentists, [00:10:05] I did gravitate towards them a bit more. And now most of my friends are [00:10:10] dentists.

Payman Langroudi: And did either of you ever hang out with non-students?

Natalie Gabrawi: Oh. [00:10:15]

Alisha Sagar: As in, as.

Natalie Gabrawi: In, I have a lot of I’m Egyptian, so I have a lot of Egyptian friends. [00:10:20] And because my twin sister was also in London, I used to hang out with her friends. So in that sense, [00:10:25] yes, I think I hung out with her.

Payman Langroudi: But she was in medical school, right?

Natalie Gabrawi: Yeah, she was in medical school.

Payman Langroudi: Like, for instance, when I was in Cardiff. [00:10:30] Okay, there was the dentist, the medics, there was a dentist. And but then there was the townspeople [00:10:35] who were the coolest. They were the coolest. Yeah. He’s the guy until 6 [00:10:40] a.m. with those cats.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Alisha Sagar: I know. I don’t think I did. I [00:10:45] think most of my friends were students, but I think also because possibly in first year that’s [00:10:50] when you meet loads of different people. But for us it was like first year was cut short. And I think [00:10:55] that’s why you kind of just ended up being friends with people in your course for majority of the time [00:11:00] as well.

Natalie Gabrawi: It’s very much split. Medics, dentists and then humanities.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah, [00:11:05] yeah.

Natalie Gabrawi: And things like that.

Payman Langroudi: So you told me before we started. You told me that you, Natalie, [00:11:10] like a restorative. Yes. And has that. Is that something that [00:11:15] you’re both an Ftir now? Yes. Is that something that crystallised for you and Ftir, or did [00:11:20] you like restorative all the way through?

Natalie Gabrawi: I’ve always liked restorative. I’m very artsy, so I [00:11:25] draw a lot of like fine detail drawings of animals. So I’ve always loved the intricacy of [00:11:30] restorative dentistry, always got on really well with composite at uni, and really [00:11:35] like the whole Crown prep side of it, and it wasn’t something that I knew I liked. I just, I happened [00:11:40] to be better at that than I was at things like, yeah, taking teeth out. [00:11:45] So I’ve always wanted to, um, yeah, just become better at that because that’s what I was good at. And then in [00:11:50] foundation year, I realised, yeah, I, I could spend hours doing composites [00:11:55] in Crown Preps all day, but taking the teeth out, I just want to get them in and out as quick as possible. So [00:12:00] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t like blood?

Natalie Gabrawi: I don’t like perse. So I think every time I have [00:12:05] to drain an abscess, I get really excited. Like Alicia shows me that pimple popping videos. I [00:12:10] can’t stand them. Yeah, not a biggest fan.

Payman Langroudi: But surgery [00:12:15] is a concept, like flaps these sort of things.

Natalie Gabrawi: So I’ve done them. I don’t mind doing them, but it just doesn’t [00:12:20] excite me as much as yeah, other parts of teeth, which sounds a bit weird to say out loud, but [00:12:25] yeah, but you.

Payman Langroudi: Alicia.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah. Complete opposite, I think. Um, I [00:12:30] so there’s an implant dentist who comes to my practice, uh, once a month. Uh, [00:12:35] so I go shadow him on that day. And I just remember the first time [00:12:40] I got sort of exposure to proper implant dentistry was when I shadowed him, because in university you don’t we don’t get [00:12:45] taught really, other than theory. The theory side of implants, we don’t ever get to see the practical side. [00:12:50] And yeah, I found that really interesting. I find I started to realise quite quickly [00:12:55] in foundation year that I was enjoying oral surgery a lot. Um, yeah, just sectioning [00:13:00] teeth, getting teeth out. I don’t know, I just really enjoyed that. And, um, even at university I enjoyed oral [00:13:05] surgery. Like when we had oral surgery clinics. I would look forward to it a lot more than just our regular clinics [00:13:10] on on floor 21 or 25. And, uh, yeah. And [00:13:15] then I also shadowed tan, my good friend who works at Evo. He well, now he’s gone [00:13:20] to the US, but he was working at Evo Dental, so I went and shadowed him. And they do like full mouth.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:13:25] long did you do that for?

Alisha Sagar: Uh, I only went for a full day just to shadow him. Um, but, yeah, I found [00:13:30] that really, really interesting. And I follow a lot of social media accounts that post about implants, and I just [00:13:35] find that side of things. Yeah. Really interesting, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Is that since you’ve qualified or is it [00:13:40] like before you qualified, you were making decisions?

Alisha Sagar: Yeah. No, not in university. I didn’t even have any. [00:13:45] Yeah, because we weren’t exposed to it. So I think that was in university. We were exposed to orthodontics, [00:13:50] fillings, endo. And so I kind of was like maybe, maybe ortho. Um, [00:13:55] and I guess I didn’t maybe push myself to do a lot of stuff outside of university to get that exposure. [00:14:00] I didn’t realise how big it was because at university we don’t get taught it. Um, and then [00:14:05] when I was exposed to it after university in our study days or shadowing the implant dentist, I quickly came [00:14:10] to realise this is something I can see myself doing in the future. And I think similar to what Natalie said, I think. [00:14:15] I think nowadays a lot of people end up doing something that they’re good at. I think [00:14:20] when you’re good at something, you I don’t know what you think about that. You enjoy it then. Yeah. Yeah, [00:14:25] I, I would like to think that hopefully one day I would be good at placing implants and. Yeah. [00:14:30] So I think that’s sort of side of.

Payman Langroudi: My general advice, right. When cats like you say, [00:14:35] what should I do? Yeah. My general advice is to choose something like something.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah. [00:14:40]

Payman Langroudi: And notice now that you’ve kind of chosen. Yeah, yeah. You go and shadow Tony [00:14:45] in Ivo Dental. Yeah. And some people the general advice isn’t that general advice is oh [00:14:50] go and do the NHS do see a lot of things. Yeah. And then decide [00:14:55] which one you like. But what you said before about you end up liking whatever you know more about.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah. [00:15:00]

Payman Langroudi: Then, um, just pick something. Yeah. Now it’s very different. Those two things you’ve [00:15:05] picked. Yeah. So when you said restorative composite, I mean, what’s going on in my head is [00:15:10] get you onto our mini smile makeover course, push you into it and all of that. Yeah. But, [00:15:15] um, you know, there’s the question of, are you thinking of specialising or [00:15:20] not?

Natalie Gabrawi: I was debating specialising. So I’m doing DCT and restorative dentistry next [00:15:25] year. But before, before then I was like, you can do so many courses. [00:15:30] There’s so many things out there. You can have a special interest rather than a specialist. So that’s more [00:15:35] towards what I’m leaning leaning towards now. But I’ve shadowed Riyaz Khan, [00:15:40] who’s an insane dentist, and he was saying, just do. There’s so many courses out there, there’s [00:15:45] people do PG certs and diplomas for a year, and there’s a lot of topics that you might [00:15:50] not be interested in. So just stick to the ones that you like and things that you want to improve on. [00:15:55] And then you’ll get you’ll as long as you’re always continually learning and doing [00:16:00] things that you’re yeah, that pushes you to be not just a better dentist, but communicator. [00:16:05] Learning the basics of occlusion. That’s something that I really want to get the basics of correct, [00:16:10] and then the rest will come with time.

Payman Langroudi: So one thing I would say is two [00:16:15] things I’d say number one, always discount the fact that [00:16:20] when you ask someone for advice, most people just tell you to do what they did 100%. [00:16:25] Yeah, discount that factor in. Yeah. When someone like Shiraz tells you, yeah, this, [00:16:30] this and this often, it’s because Shiraz did this, this and this. Now we understand why that is. Yeah, because [00:16:35] that’s the process. You understand the best because you went through that process. Yeah. But discount that in. Yeah. [00:16:40] So one thing I would definitely say is don’t rule out specialising because a lot of people do that rule [00:16:45] it out straight away for no reason. Yeah.

Natalie Gabrawi: Because I was going to rule it out and then I wouldn’t. Yeah I was. [00:16:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Because you know, let’s let’s start with this. Yeah. If you want to be a referral based [00:16:55] dentist. Yeah. Are you going to refer your mother to a non specialist who says [00:17:00] they’re really good at whatever. Yeah. You by the way I would there’s several I know. Yeah several [00:17:05] I know who are specialist and are better than having a specialisation. Doesn’t mean [00:17:10] much. You know it depends on which one you do. But there is that. Mhm. Um [00:17:15] number two there are certain jobs that only specialists can get. Yeah. And [00:17:20] you know, if you’re that West End sort of orientated person, there are [00:17:25] practices who only hire specialists. Yeah. Um, restoratives are a difficult one though, [00:17:30] because a lot of dentists think they can just do it. And so they don’t refer. Um, [00:17:35] either way though. Whatever you do, it’s going to be hard. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You can [00:17:40] do occlusion courses. You can do spear and course in the US, thousands of pounds in [00:17:45] time and all that. Or you can specialise or you can do whatever, you know, either worthwhile stuff as [00:17:50] you know.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s difficult.

Natalie Gabrawi: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: But yours. Yeah. [00:17:55] Implants.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um my first thing about it is there aren’t [00:18:00] enough women in surgery. Yeah. And so good you know. And [00:18:05] what’s popping in my head is go and shadow someone like Fazeela Khan [00:18:10] Osborne. Do you know her?

Alisha Sagar: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Yeah. Um. Another woman? Implantologist. [00:18:15] Yeah. Like to just see that. You know what? It’s possible. And it’s cool and all that. Because [00:18:20] a lot of women are scared of it, by the way. A lot of dentists are scared of blood. Yeah.

Alisha Sagar: But not at all. [00:18:25] I’m just, like.

Payman Langroudi: A lot of women, for some reason, are scared of it. It’d be good to have more women doing surgery. [00:18:30]

Alisha Sagar: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Uh, but if you pull it off, I mean, right now, it’s the [00:18:35] most profitable thing you can do, right? I mean, all on for all that stuff you saw. [00:18:40] Ivo Dental.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah, yeah, that was insane.

Payman Langroudi: Per hour. It’s insane income. Yeah. [00:18:45] And life changing dentistry. So then let’s start. Let’s start. Let’s start dreaming. [00:18:50] Let’s start dreaming.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah, yeah. Let’s go on then.

Payman Langroudi: So in three years time, [00:18:55] we’re going to come back to this and we’re going to see how you went. Yeah. Give me two scenarios here. One [00:19:00] like where you hope you’re going to be. Yeah. And one is like [00:19:05] hitting it out of the park. Like like if I could dream really big.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How big your [00:19:10] dreams are. So let’s let’s talk. We’re going to start with work and we’re going to move on to life [00:19:15] as well.

Alisha Sagar: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Workwise. Who wants to go first?

Alisha Sagar: Uh, I don’t yeah, [00:19:20] I can go first. That’s fine.

Payman Langroudi: So three years?

Alisha Sagar: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You would have done your DCT. Yes. Which is one year. [00:19:25]

Alisha Sagar: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Starting soon.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Then what do you think?

Alisha Sagar: Okay, [00:19:30] so it’s a really tricky question to answer because I think I just looking at this past year, I’ve already [00:19:35] changed my mind. So I don’t want to close any doors off. But if someone was asking me right now based on what [00:19:40] I’m thinking. So DCT one, I’m doing it in oral surgery and maxfacts at Southampton and [00:19:45] then possibly looking at doing DCT two, I think that would, uh, might be beneficial [00:19:50] as well in oral surgery if I’m going down the speciality route of, of oral surgery, which I [00:19:55] have thought of quite strongly, possibly doing speciality training in oral surgery. And [00:20:00] alongside that. So if we’re looking at three years time, DCT one, DCT two, and [00:20:05] then if I decide to go down the speciality training route, I would be doing hopefully not DCT three, [00:20:10] but in my speciality training if I get in. Um, and then alongside that, having [00:20:15] done it, I would hope to have done an implant, a good implant course out there. I think the difficult thing is I’m deciding which one [00:20:20] to do this so much out there. There’s just courses, there’s masters, and it’s just like, what do you go for? [00:20:25] And I’m trying to figure that out. Speak to people who are doing implants, what they advise. But again, as you said, [00:20:30] everyone I’ve spoken to, it’s just what they’ve done that they’ve advised. So I think it’s kind of coming to a personal decision [00:20:35] as well.

Alisha Sagar: So yeah, three years time hopefully in speciality training for all surgery, [00:20:40] starting to place some implants or or doing a course. Um, and then yeah. [00:20:45] So that’s the, that’s the where, you know, that’s the more realistic thing if I, if I want to [00:20:50] have all those hopes and dreams out there, then I would say, yeah, um, speciality [00:20:55] training. But then alongside that also working in practice maybe locum. [00:21:00] I do also think in the future I might go down doing some bonding and alignment. I [00:21:05] do find that a little bit interesting. Not as much as Natalie, but I can see myself doing it and not just pulling teeth [00:21:10] out and placing implants. Um, so that’s if I was, you know, dreaming really, really [00:21:15] big. And if I enjoy that, I would also have some, some of that in, in, in, [00:21:20] in my work. Yeah. But I would just hope that overall looking at it, I really enjoy work. I think that’s [00:21:25] the biggest thing. It’s not about like what you’re doing. I just want to go into my work in three years time being excited [00:21:30] to go into work. And I think with Foundation, I, I do look forward to going to work, but not [00:21:35] its foundation. Everyone says foundation is like the year where you’re not gonna you’re not gonna love it. You’re [00:21:40] going to learn a lot.

Payman Langroudi: I love that, yeah.

Alisha Sagar: Oh, really? Did you love it? Yeah, no, I do, I [00:21:45] do, I, I love it, but I can’t see myself doing what I’m doing now in three years. I think in foundation [00:21:50] you’re working in a very busy NHS practice. You [00:21:55] don’t in foundation, you can give the time to patients because you’re on a salary. You’re not [00:22:00] being paid per un. I think something that I came to quickly realise in my foundation years, if [00:22:05] I was being paid per UDA, I would be broke because I’d be given the [00:22:10] time I’m giving my patients and what my skill set entails and what I want to be as a dentist. [00:22:15] It doesn’t. It doesn’t work if I continue like this. And yeah, [00:22:20] it’s the sad truth to it. Um, but yeah, I think that’s I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:22:25] you don’t have to be an NHS dentist.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah, yeah. No, for sure I do. I do agree with that. But [00:22:30] I’m just trying to see what, what I can get into that I feel I’m going to go into work [00:22:35] and I’m going to really look forward to. I’m not going to feel like I’m being rushed. I’m giving my patients even.

Payman Langroudi: More fascinated by [00:22:40] the runnings of a practice like.

Alisha Sagar: Oh yeah, no, I think, I think.

Payman Langroudi: For me that was a shock.

Alisha Sagar: Like, yeah. [00:22:45]

Payman Langroudi: How does a practice even work?

Alisha Sagar: Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How big’s your practice?

Alisha Sagar: Um, it’s not very big. [00:22:50] We have three dentists and two hygienists working every day. Um, it’s on [00:22:55] high street reading, and it’s quite. It’s not too big. Yeah, it’s it’s a two storey, um, but [00:23:00] a bit smaller.

Payman Langroudi: Do you live there? No, I live here.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah, we live in reading. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. [00:23:05]

Payman Langroudi: How’s that.

Natalie Gabrawi: Working out?

Alisha Sagar: Yeah, it’s been good. It’s. It’s nice to. As much as we miss London, [00:23:10] like, we come back to the busy London life and we’re like, oh, we miss it. But then there’s also some aspects [00:23:15] that we love about reading. I think also that certain calmness after five years being in London has been great and [00:23:20] like living together has been amazing.

Natalie Gabrawi: So yeah, I come home in and feeds made. I should have done. Like [00:23:25] the housewife. And then I just do the driving.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s literally [00:23:30] like that.

Natalie Gabrawi: No. It’s been. Yeah, it’s been great. I think because reading’s so close to London as well. [00:23:35] We still, we come to every week or so.

Payman Langroudi: So are you on the Elizabeth line a lot?

Natalie Gabrawi: Yes. We all [00:23:40] get the train, the trains a lot faster.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah. The fast trains. 22 minutes to Paddington. Yeah, it’s been really easy. [00:23:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So how have you found your foundation here?

Natalie Gabrawi: So I’ve loved it. I’m a bit weird in that sense. I’ve [00:23:50] just loved being in practice. I do see myself in private practice in the future, and [00:23:55] I didn’t think I would enjoy it as much as I have. I love talking to patients, and I think because we [00:24:00] have the luxury of time in as a foundation dentist, like going from three [00:24:05] hour check-ups at uni. Yeah. Um, I just, I learned to, I just like [00:24:10] finding out about patients and listening to their life story. Yeah, it’s not as easy in an NHS [00:24:15] practice as well, but I have yeah, enjoyed it a lot. I’ve had really supportive team [00:24:20] as well. So my supervisors have been great. And I think because my practice is quite big, we’ve just [00:24:25] expanded to six surgeries as well. It’s I have as an implant dentist, [00:24:30] there’s people that have special interest in endo and cosmetic dentistry. So I’ve shadowed them a lot. [00:24:35] And I think they’ve because it’s more private, there’s not a lot of NHS dentistry. I do most of [00:24:40] it with the other foundation dentists. So I’ve seen how much better private [00:24:45] dentistry can be. I don’t want to say better, but you just get more time with your patients and the materials [00:24:50] you use are a lot more advanced. So I do see myself. Yeah, in private in the future. [00:24:55]

Payman Langroudi: Like, what have you gotten really like surprised by how good you’ve gotten at something [00:25:00] in Foundation year? Um.

Natalie Gabrawi: I think quick check-ups um, [00:25:05] I didn’t realise how fast I could work if I’m put under pressure, but I do think [00:25:10] just the seeing patients for the whole year, you’ve got you get to see. [00:25:15] I had a patient who was so nervous, hated going to the dentist, had a massive phobia And then seeing [00:25:20] how now she loves coming to the dentist and her confidence. Yes. Was [00:25:25] it I get I get embarrassed saying, trying to be humble, but it was my [00:25:30] case at the time as well. So I put in a lot of effort and she was really struggling to [00:25:35] find a dentist. So the fact that I even saw her to begin with, she was really grateful for and she never used to smile [00:25:40] before. And now she says that all her friends say that she smiles loads and she’s a lot more confident, which [00:25:45] is the reason I wanted to do dentistry in the first place. So just realising that we as [00:25:50] foundation dentists, we can have that impact on patients lives. Yeah. You don’t realise. [00:25:55]

Payman Langroudi: And going forward, you know, being a gentle, kind dentist. Yeah. Yeah. [00:26:00] Is the best marketing in the world. Yeah. The best. Yeah. Painless injections. [00:26:05]

Natalie Gabrawi: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Get to that like painless NHS. It’s very difficult but but [00:26:10] yeah. Totally painless injections. Yeah. Really. Your patients will follow you around the country [00:26:15] because of that. You know, I don’t know what you guys probably never had any dentistry done on [00:26:20] you.

Alisha Sagar: Um, when I was much younger, other than ortho and when I was much younger, maybe 1 or 2 [00:26:25] fillings.

Natalie Gabrawi: And I’m getting Invisalign.

Payman Langroudi: I had a filling recently. Yeah, it’s horrible [00:26:30] man. It’s much worse than you think. It’s awful. Yeah. And in a way, like, [00:26:35] once the needles gone in. Yeah. Then you’re okay, right? But it’s actually quite nerve wracking. [00:26:40]

Alisha Sagar: Oh, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: So now going forward, what are your hopes and [00:26:45] dreams? Three years.

[TRANSITION]: Three years.

Payman Langroudi: So are you thinking two years of DCT as well?

Natalie Gabrawi: So leaning more towards [00:26:50] one year. I think if I’m really enjoying it then definitely I’ll do DCT to think about. Yeah, [00:26:55] speciality training, but I think I’m taking it a year at a time because I didn’t think I’d even be doing [00:27:00] DCT next year. So yeah, we’ll see what I learn from that. And then [00:27:05] if not, courses private dentistry, thinking of maybe a masters [00:27:10] in Cosmetic and Aesthetic dentistry. I think that’s something I want to do if I want to specialise as well. [00:27:15] And yeah, I just I love the whole full mouth rehab. I’m [00:27:20] really interested in toothwear. I know it’s a bit of a stretch for three years, but maybe thinking, why [00:27:25] not full mouth rehab?

[TRANSITION]: We’ll see. But why not? Yeah. Why not?

Payman Langroudi: If let’s say [00:27:30] you said your goal is that in three years time you want to be doing full mouth rehabs. Okay, shadow people [00:27:35] for three years. Yeah, you’ll know loads about it. By the way, there’s a there’s a, there’s [00:27:40] a course called the full Mouth Rehab course. Fmr course. Yeah. It’s [00:27:45] like a, it’s a one year course.

[TRANSITION]: I think I’ve seen it on Instagram.

Payman Langroudi: Um. Devang [00:27:50] Patel.

Natalie Gabrawi: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, or of course, you know, you could go to Seattle [00:27:55] and, and and.

[TRANSITION]: And.

Payman Langroudi: Those guys. So what did you say? So three years in year three, where will [00:28:00] you be?

Natalie Gabrawi: Same. It just it changes all the time for me. So most likely most likely I’ll [00:28:05] do DCT for one year and then hopefully go into private for then two years and then see where it takes me. [00:28:10] But yeah, if I love it, then speciality training if not.

Payman Langroudi: Although you know.

[TRANSITION]: Like your. [00:28:15]

Payman Langroudi: You know, like your I know it’s not it’s never going to be a forever job. Yeah. But you’re you’re forever job [00:28:20] tends to be the one after the one you’re in now [00:28:25] not counting DCT.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So so let’s say you’ve done DCT. [00:28:30] You go into a private practice. The one after the next job after that tends [00:28:35] to be the one, you know, the one that you want to.

[TRANSITION]: Really.

Natalie Gabrawi: Stay on as a foundation dentist.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:28:40] also it’s also amazing, by the way, because you can see your own work fail and all that. You learn [00:28:45] a.

[TRANSITION]: Lot.

Payman Langroudi: From it. What about life wise? So you just got engaged?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:28:50] Congrats. A bit.

Payman Langroudi: Early.

[TRANSITION]: Right?

Alisha Sagar: So I get that a lot. I think.

[TRANSITION]: A lot. [00:28:55] You get a lot? Yeah. It’s not just because.

Alisha Sagar: But, um, I do have a couple of friends in our [00:29:00] friend group two. Two of them are also. Yeah, half of our friend group is engaged, I [00:29:05] think.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a date for the wedding?

Alisha Sagar: No.

[TRANSITION]: So this is.

Alisha Sagar: So this is the thing? Yeah. So for [00:29:10] me, it was the only thing that I think about that’s stressful when [00:29:15] it comes to getting married is is the wedding? Um, so both my partner and I were quite well on the same [00:29:20] wavelength in terms of we’re not in a rush to have the wedding tomorrow, and it’s just based on when [00:29:25] we feel like we’re ready, when things are a little bit sort of stable in terms of my DCT, [00:29:30] once I’m in, you know, into the role of things and a bit more comfortable, [00:29:35] then we can start to think about having a wedding.

Payman Langroudi: So he’s a medic.

Alisha Sagar: No, [00:29:40] no, no, he’s a dentist. Yeah, he’s a dentist as well.

Payman Langroudi: So from your year.

Alisha Sagar: No, he’s two years above. [00:29:45]

Payman Langroudi: Oh. What’s he up.

[TRANSITION]: To?

Alisha Sagar: He’s working at a dental practice in Alton. Yeah. And he’s [00:29:50] also now just started part time working at Heroku as well.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah. Yeah. [00:29:55]

[TRANSITION]: So. Okay.

Alisha Sagar: Um, yeah. So he’s doing that. Um, so yeah, I think although I am young [00:30:00] compared to a lot of people, you know, they get married. I’m 24. I have to think [00:30:05] about that. Yeah. But yeah, I know a lot of people sort of get married more towards 13 hour [00:30:10] days, but for me it was just about where I am in my life. If I feel like I have [00:30:15] a clear plan of what I want to do in a few years, and I know that being engaged or getting married isn’t going to affect that, [00:30:20] because I think a lot of people put getting married on hold because they want to focus on their employment, [00:30:25] their job, but nothing I don’t that’s not going to affect me in any way. [00:30:30] And my partner’s very supportive. So if I, you know, if I’m not ready to have a wedding, even if it’s [00:30:35] next year because I’m too stressed about DCT, there’s no rush about that. My parents are very chill [00:30:40] about that as well. And my brother’s getting married next year, so.

[TRANSITION]: He’s going to get married first. [00:30:45]

Payman Langroudi: You recognise it’s a little bit early. So yeah. Where’s the imperative? Like where did it come from? [00:30:50] Why is it happening if it’s.

[TRANSITION]: So I think the only.

Payman Langroudi: Reason. Did you push for it?

[TRANSITION]: Did he push for it? Are your parents pushing [00:30:55] for it?

Alisha Sagar: The only reason I actually think it’s early is just because I know that a lot of people nowadays [00:31:00] don’t get married like.

Payman Langroudi: It.

[TRANSITION]: Is early. Yeah, but so what?

Payman Langroudi: My point is, why [00:31:05] is it early? Is someone pushing?

Alisha Sagar: No, not really, I just think.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah I think we beat. [00:31:10]

Payman Langroudi: The question like that. Was it?

[TRANSITION]: Oh, no, I totally I’m super nosy.

Alisha Sagar: And so [00:31:15] I did know and I think I was also at a stage where I was, I was ready to be like, I [00:31:20] knew he was the guy who was going to marry. So for me, it was just about, you know, if we’re going to get married and [00:31:25] I’m going to have a ring and, you know, we have that next stage of commitment. Like that meant a lot [00:31:30] to me as well. So, yeah, I think the only thing for me is just I think weddings [00:31:35] are super stressful. Just seeing my brother plan his wedding is really stressful, but nothing else, I [00:31:40] think to me makes it seem like I’m too young. I feel like I’m ready emotionally and I’m, you know, I’m [00:31:45] at a stage in my life where I was ready to to get engaged.

Natalie Gabrawi: I think what’s different with you as well? A lot of people [00:31:50] get engaged and married a year after, I think, because you’re not putting any pressure on the wedding. Yeah. Like you’re [00:31:55] you want to enjoy engagement life.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: That’s a big thing.

Payman Langroudi: This this thing you’re saying about. The most stressful [00:32:00] thing about being married is the wedding.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. I feel like that.

Payman Langroudi: Is not the case.

Natalie Gabrawi: That my brother said [00:32:05] that when he got married.

[TRANSITION]: I feel like everyone.

Alisha Sagar: I’ve spoken to, they’re just like, oh, my God, my brother’s like.

[TRANSITION]: Just elope.

Payman Langroudi: Wedding is a stressful [00:32:10] thing.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. But it’s not the most stressful thing.

[TRANSITION]: Like being.

Payman Langroudi: Married. But being married is stressful. [00:32:15]

[TRANSITION]: What is the.

Natalie Gabrawi: Most stressful.

[TRANSITION]: Thing?

Payman Langroudi: Being with the same person for years.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Even. Even? Even. [00:32:20] Yeah. I was reflecting on this. Yeah, we just had our reunion, uh, of dental school, and, [00:32:25] um, I the guys I live with, actually, the guys who my partners enlighten [00:32:30] as well. Yeah. And I was thinking, when I was your age, I was a bit younger than you. Yeah. Living with my [00:32:35] best friends in university. Having the time of my life. It was still hard living [00:32:40] with them. Yeah. It’s like, you know, the Big Brother house.

[TRANSITION]: Because the first.

Payman Langroudi: The first day, [00:32:45] everyone’s friends.

[TRANSITION]: And then three.

Payman Langroudi: Weeks later, some bananas causing.

[TRANSITION]: An argument. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s [00:32:50] hard living with someone who, even if they’re an angel, it’s hard. Or you’re an angel. It’s [00:32:55] hard.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whereas if you’re not, it’s a bit easier. And when you say it’s not going to affect [00:33:00] me, it might affect you. Yeah. Because you might want to get a job in Edinburgh. Yeah. [00:33:05] And he’s down here.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So it might affect you career wise?

Alisha Sagar: Yeah, [00:33:10] I think I haven’t thought about it that I don’t know if it’s a bad thing. I just think I’m very much, [00:33:15] like, live in the moment. If it feels right. It’s meant to be. And for.

[TRANSITION]: Me. How long have you been together?

Alisha Sagar: For [00:33:20] almost five years. Yeah. So we’ve been together for a long time, and [00:33:25] I think we we know each other on that level. It doesn’t feel rushed or anything like that. And [00:33:30] so I felt ready. He felt ready. And yeah, I just think it was it felt like the right time. [00:33:35] Um, because I feel like there’s.

[TRANSITION]: Always.

Payman Langroudi: In three years time from this perspective. Yeah. From the marriage perspective, [00:33:40] where do you expect to be?

Alisha Sagar: Good question. So on a personal side of things, [00:33:45] I think in three years time we probably would have had the wedding by then, to be honest. So yeah, [00:33:50] it wouldn’t be.

[TRANSITION]: That far away to be.

Payman Langroudi: Married.

[TRANSITION]: Now. Yeah. So [00:33:55] married. Uh, not.

Alisha Sagar: Thinking of kids in three years time?

[TRANSITION]: No. No.

Alisha Sagar: Um, but, yeah, just enjoying, [00:34:00] like.

[TRANSITION]: Holidaying.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah, just holidaying and also having a [00:34:05] good balance in terms of like, I think it’s really important to have that balance with personal [00:34:10] and professional life as well. Um, and then, yeah, I’m trying to think like.

[TRANSITION]: Would.

Payman Langroudi: You say [00:34:15] you’re more the sort of work to live type or the live to work type?

[TRANSITION]: Oh.

Alisha Sagar: I [00:34:20] think you should answer that for me, I don’t know.

Natalie Gabrawi: Oh that’s good. I think you’re more work [00:34:25] to live, right?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Work life balance.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Whole [00:34:30] thing.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: I don’t let’s just say.

Payman Langroudi: Just just fast forward again. Yeah. [00:34:35] Let’s say okay, ten years time. What do you what would be. What do you reckon?

Natalie Gabrawi: I’m an auntie. [00:34:40]

[TRANSITION]: So you have to I don’t know know.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s interesting. Like, is it that when we say, you know, work to [00:34:45] live or live to work, are you going to be like two days a week? Dentist.

[TRANSITION]: Shopping, [00:34:50] having.

Payman Langroudi: A great time, kids, like, where are we? Where do you think you’ll be like, when do you think you’ll [00:34:55] have kids?

[TRANSITION]: Um.

Alisha Sagar: Maybe closer to 30, maybe. Yeah, around [00:35:00] around like 36 years time. Yeah, maybe around then. But again, I’m I’m not I [00:35:05] haven’t put like a number on it, to be honest. I think it’s just about when I’m ready. Um, but.

Payman Langroudi: Six [00:35:10] years time, it’s only six summers.

Natalie Gabrawi: We’ve been married. [00:35:15]

[TRANSITION]: Six years, five and a half.

Payman Langroudi: Summers, you know, like like is there, like, maybe if [00:35:20] there were seven places you wanted to visit?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t or you can’t. You can. You can be married and.

[TRANSITION]: You [00:35:25] never.

Natalie Gabrawi: Know what’s going.

[TRANSITION]: To happen.

Natalie Gabrawi: Next year. So I think it’s hard to predict.

Payman Langroudi: So kids, kids or no, not interested.

Alisha Sagar: When, [00:35:30] when? Oh, no. Kids. Yeah. Eventually kids. Um. But oh I don’t it’s such a hard question. [00:35:35] I don’t want to put a number. I just think when, like, I don’t know, probably around 30, I’ll say around not [00:35:40] earlier than 29. So I’ll say yeah, around 29.

[TRANSITION]: To. [00:35:45]

Alisha Sagar: 33.

[TRANSITION]: Let’s, let’s.

Alisha Sagar: Do a range.

[TRANSITION]: For 4.

Payman Langroudi: To 6 summers left.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah [00:35:50] yeah yeah. But also.

Alisha Sagar: You change so much every year [00:35:55] and.

[TRANSITION]: You realise.

Payman Langroudi: That.

[TRANSITION]: If it was me, if.

Payman Langroudi: It was me, yeah. The pressure I would feel under [00:36:00] to make those four summers the best four summers in the whole wide world. Yeah, because after that. Because I’ve been there. 18 [00:36:05] year old.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: After that. Yeah. As a as a mother. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. I [00:36:10] mean, it’s good to think about. It’s not.

Payman Langroudi: The same. It’s not the.

[TRANSITION]: Same. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: In terms of summers.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:36:15]

Payman Langroudi: It’s not for about eight years.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You’re out.

Natalie Gabrawi: I [00:36:20] think that’s your mindset on it. I do.

[TRANSITION]: Think.

Natalie Gabrawi: Yeah, I [00:36:25] do think you’re very much a. Yeah. You live in the moment. I think you’re going to make every summer your [00:36:30] best summer with or without kids I think. But I know it’s different because.

[TRANSITION]: We’re.

Natalie Gabrawi: Talking from it from a point of view where [00:36:35] we’re not married.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alisha Sagar: Things change. And going back to your previous question, where you were saying, like, do you [00:36:40] will you be working two days a week? And I think if you ask me that question a year ago, I would be like, oh, I want [00:36:45] to work two days a week. I want to be like, I want to be a mom. I want to be like with my matcha [00:36:50] in the morning. But like now when I actually when I have a day off, I get so bored. I literally [00:36:55] when I’m at home and Natalie’s at work, I just don’t know what to do. I get so bored and I [00:37:00] that’s I’m a very like I have to keep myself busy. I have to get some work done. [00:37:05] I don’t like being unproductive in the day. So I think if I definitely don’t want to work full time [00:37:10] like dentistry, but I would love to do maybe 1 to 2 days of something [00:37:15] else that I enjoy. I don’t know what that passion is yet. I actually saying that I, [00:37:20] I’ve always wanted to teach as well. So literally since uni, I’ve always been [00:37:25] the person who’s like wanting to help the younger years, like I’m not getting paid or anything for it. I just love [00:37:30] helping like people younger than me who are learning still, and I’ve always seen myself [00:37:35] tutoring as well. So even that is dentistry like so it would be kind of full time dentistry. But [00:37:40] two of those days I would love to be teaching rather than the dentist, if that makes sense. So [00:37:45] I think I could see myself doing that. And I always say that I think that’s something that’s never changed since uni.

[TRANSITION]: Teaching.

Payman Langroudi: Is. [00:37:50]

[TRANSITION]: Fun teaching.

Alisha Sagar: I’ve always wanted to get into teaching. Yeah. And like even when we had like study groups for [00:37:55] finals, like when we’d, like hire a room in the, in the library and I don’t know what [00:38:00] I would just like. I would be a different person up there teaching about like squamous cell carcinoma. I loved oral meds, so. [00:38:05]

[TRANSITION]: You’re.

Alisha Sagar: So good at explaining it. Oh, thanks. And you were really good at restorative. So I think that’s something that both [00:38:10] like I just really enjoy like sharing knowledge and also gaining knowledge from peers. Yeah. So that’s [00:38:15] something I can see myself doing actually. Yeah.

Natalie Gabrawi: I the idea of working three days a week a [00:38:20] week was great. As in, I thought I’d always do that. But I have a lot of side hobbies. [00:38:25] Like I love dentistry as it is, but I do really like my art, like drawing. I love [00:38:30] sports, so I’ve gotten to paddle recently, which is really great. It’s so fun. [00:38:35] We actually need to do that one time. Um, and I get a lot of my [00:38:40] social energy from hanging out with my friends and and doing other things. I do like the [00:38:45] idea of Botox in the future, maybe, and facial aesthetics. So I think dentistry would [00:38:50] be good for 3 to 4 days max and then doing things. I think work life balance [00:38:55] is so important and a lot of dentists get sucked into the they have to, especially [00:39:00] at our age, to do all these courses, do so much to get to where we want to. But I think [00:39:05] it’s so important to focus on your mental health and do other things that you enjoy as well, because it’s [00:39:10] easy to get sucked into.

Payman Langroudi: And so how about from the personal perspective, where do you think you’re going [00:39:15] to be in three years time?

Natalie Gabrawi: Great question. Um, hopefully.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the situation [00:39:20] now?

Natalie Gabrawi: At the moment? Um, yeah. Single. Not talking to anyone. Yeah. And I think I wanted [00:39:25] to just focus on me for a bit. And again, I think I’m too young at the moment. [00:39:30] I know a lot of people have different opinions, like Anita’s engaged, which is great. But I think for me personally, [00:39:35] I’m not ready to. Yeah, settle down just yet.

Payman Langroudi: Too much drama, [00:39:40] right?

Natalie Gabrawi: Yeah, I live with me. I get all my drama from [00:39:45] Alicia and.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. No.

Natalie Gabrawi: As in, I think I didn’t know where I was going to be [00:39:50] next year a few months ago. So I think it’s for me to put. [00:39:55] Yeah put.

[TRANSITION]: That.

Payman Langroudi: But then, but then we’re trying to predict in three years time. Three years. Where do you think you’re going [00:40:00] to be from a personal perspective?

Natalie Gabrawi: I hope I’m. Yeah. Talking to someone, maybe thinking about. Yeah. [00:40:05]

[TRANSITION]: Getting serious with someone.

Natalie Gabrawi: Getting serious with someone, settling down somewhere. I think that’s important [00:40:10] because I think especially for women as well, we have a shorter timeline. I think a lot of [00:40:15] maybe by like late 20s. Yeah. Serious for someone, hopefully. [00:40:20]

Payman Langroudi: But either of you considered freezing eggs?

Natalie Gabrawi: I actually have you know, I think a [00:40:25] lot more people are doing it at the moment. I think people are getting married later. Yeah. And [00:40:30] yeah, I would think about it. But also if it’s meant to be [00:40:35] or it will be.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve had two episodes on on egg freezing. Yeah. [00:40:40] And um, you know, the younger the better.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s why it makes a massive difference. Yeah. [00:40:45] Like each year is like a dog year or something.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Dog years. Seven years. Yeah. [00:40:50] Yeah, yeah. Like from from.

Payman Langroudi: The egg perspective.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:40:55] but I don’t know, man. After those two pods, I’ve been just going around telling everyone, freeze your eggs.

Alisha Sagar: You [00:41:00] know what? Thanks for the advice. Maybe I’ll do.

[TRANSITION]: That, because why not?

Payman Langroudi: Because why.

[TRANSITION]: Not? Yeah, exactly. You lose.

Alisha Sagar: Nothing. [00:41:05]

[TRANSITION]: From it.

Payman Langroudi: Well, there’s a bit of money. There’s a bit.

[TRANSITION]: Of.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a little bit. It feels funny or whatever with hormones and all [00:41:10] that. So there is, there.

[TRANSITION]: Is that put less pressure.

Natalie Gabrawi: On the future.

Alisha Sagar: Though I do think. Yeah. Yeah. I think there’s more to gain probably [00:41:15] from.

Payman Langroudi: So have you both decided you do want kids?

[TRANSITION]: I think.

Alisha Sagar: I’ve decided. Yeah. I would [00:41:20] like to have kids in the future.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. I’m not sure.

Natalie Gabrawi: Not sure I would in the future. I think because [00:41:25] I’m thinking right now I wouldn’t. But just imagining a mini nanny running around, I think that would.

[TRANSITION]: Be an auntie.

Alisha Sagar: Though. [00:41:30] You have.

[TRANSITION]: To.

Alisha Sagar: Have a kid.

Natalie Gabrawi: Yeah, definitely. In the future, at some point. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve decided [00:41:35] you do. You do want them.

Natalie Gabrawi: It changes all the time. I do, I do. It depends [00:41:40] what day you ask me. Um, now I definitely do want kids. I think it’s it’s just what [00:41:45] puts me off having kids is bringing them up in a world I don’t know what the world is going to be like in [00:41:50] a few years. And I think that’s what scares me the most, is I always want what’s best. I’d want what’s best for [00:41:55] them, and to bring them up into a world that is quite unstable at the moment, I think is [00:42:00] quite a scary thought. But yeah, I know people that have kids are like, yeah, as [00:42:05] soon as they have their first kid they can’t think of, that’s like the best thing that’s ever happened to them. [00:42:10] So I do think, yeah, there’s probably more to it that I haven’t thought about. Yeah. Just.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I think [00:42:15] so.

Alisha Sagar: I was just gonna say I agree with Natalie. The only thing that sometimes puts me off having kids is [00:42:20] the thought of, like, what? The world, like the world is changing so much, just. And, like AI scares me [00:42:25] a lot. So I think that’s like a big thing as well is just like, what type of world will our kids grow up [00:42:30] in and future generations? It’s just scary. But I think, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Fear. Fear is part of these [00:42:35] sort of moves. Right? But yeah, I mean, the trend is your kid will be in a better world than we [00:42:40] were. You know, the general trend is that. Yeah, I know you worry. Yeah, yeah. [00:42:45] Um, it’s the way you got to look at it. It’s almost like a, you know, like a wave pattern. [00:42:50] Yeah. You can take no risks and do nothing. Just be single and don’t start a business. Don’t start [00:42:55] a family and you’re you’re sort of amplitudes like this. The highs are there and the lows are there. Then [00:43:00] you get a partner, you get married. Yeah. The highs are higher. The lows are lower. Yeah. Bear that [00:43:05] in mind. Yeah, yeah. Then you get a kid, the highs are higher. The lows are lower when your kid’s [00:43:10] sick and stuff. Yeah. Or when your kid gets bullied the first time or bullied. Yeah. God forbid your kid bullies [00:43:15] another kid. Yeah. It’s an awful, awful situation to be in. Yeah. Uh, you [00:43:20] go through all the same pain as you just finished. Yeah. With your kid again? Yeah. And all [00:43:25] the same. Pleasure. Yeah. First ice cream. The highs and lows. Start your own business [00:43:30] again. The highs are higher, the lows are low. And it’s a question of. Some people think, well, if I’m going to live life I’m going to live life. [00:43:35] I’m going to experience these sort of highs and lows.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but [00:43:40] this worry that you’re talking about, I had the exact same thing I said to my wife, I don’t want kids. Yeah, the [00:43:45] world’s such a terrible place. And her angle on it was, well, we want to put out good cats into [00:43:50] the world who are going to make the world a better place.

[TRANSITION]: That’s true. That’s a different.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s quite an interesting way [00:43:55] of looking at it.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: For sure.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think you’ll have you’ll have businesses. Do you think your business owner types. [00:44:00]

Natalie Gabrawi: I would love to have a.

[TRANSITION]: Business one.

Natalie Gabrawi: Day I.

[TRANSITION]: Think.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got that entrepreneurial kind of.

Natalie Gabrawi: I’ve just [00:44:05] always wanted to have. You just have? Yeah. Something that I can call the shots. [00:44:10]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Natalie Gabrawi: Because I’m quite a people pleaser in general, so I think. Yeah, I’ve [00:44:15] always wanted to do something on the side or not make. Yeah. Just not guilty the whole.

Payman Langroudi: Well, no. [00:44:20] When I say business could be a Dental business.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Could be a.

Payman Langroudi: Principle of a practice.

[TRANSITION]: You could.

Payman Langroudi: Be. But you’re. [00:44:25]

[TRANSITION]: Saying.

Payman Langroudi: A different business altogether.

Natalie Gabrawi: Yes and yes, I think different business altogether, [00:44:30] but also running a business. I’ve seen how difficult it is for my supervisors point of view. Like it’s [00:44:35] stressful. Yeah. And but it’s something I think I could manage in the future. [00:44:40] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Especially if you’re good with people.

[TRANSITION]: Right. I think that’s the most important thing. Yeah.

Alisha Sagar: I [00:44:45] think, yeah. I mean, a couple of years back I would [00:44:50] would have said yes, but I think now I’m a little bit in the middle. I’m not sure if I were to ever [00:44:55] move back to Zambia, then I would 100% want to open my own dental practice and, [00:45:00] and run that as, um, as a practice owner. But I just think there’s different challenges [00:45:05] that come with doing that in the UK as compared to Zambia a lot. There’s a lot of litigation, a [00:45:10] lot of different stresses that come about here. So I, I think seeing that side of things, I’m a little bit put off [00:45:15] owning a practice. I think you can have more of a work life balance, just [00:45:20] working at a really good practice, having a really good boss as compared to running the practice itself. [00:45:25] Um, and yeah, I think that I’ve got that advice from a lot of people who own practices and [00:45:30] they’ve sort of said, if you’re really gonna, you know, if you’re willing to cut out [00:45:35] a little bit of that work life balance and you’re looking to put in 100% into, like for the first few [00:45:40] years into that business, then go for it. But it’s going to be tough. And I think if [00:45:45] I do it, I, I need to sort of be 100% with that idea.

[TRANSITION]: Which is.

Payman Langroudi: Tough. That tough, is it? It’s [00:45:50] not that tough. Yeah, I’d say I’d say it’s just as tough becoming an Implantologist. Yeah, it’s an all [00:45:55] in kind of thing. Implantologist. Yeah. It’s not it’s not a sort of dabble.

[TRANSITION]: I feel like.

Alisha Sagar: With that you’re [00:46:00] just managing yourself. But whereas when you’re owning a practice, you’re literally having to [00:46:05] manage so many different people, so many different personalities, alongside the other stresses [00:46:10] that come with owning a business.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And especially your parents, both doctors. And [00:46:15] what do your parents do?

Alisha Sagar: My parents are both accountants. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So definitely [00:46:20] dentistry’s better than being a doctor in that sense. I’m talking from the business sense.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:46:25]

Payman Langroudi: And accountant. I mean, look, any business is difficult. Yeah, [00:46:30] but what I reflect on in dentistry is that. Oh, by the way, it’s hard, right? You’re breaking your back, and now you’re having [00:46:35] to please your patients.

[TRANSITION]: And.

Payman Langroudi: Please your please your staff. And you know everything. [00:46:40] It’s not an easy, easy ride. But I reflect on I visit dentists [00:46:45] all over the country, you know, and, um, they’re doing well, man. They’re doing well. Making loads.

[TRANSITION]: Of money.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:46:50] making loads of money. And the key thing is they’re just being [00:46:55] nice to their staff. Nice to their patients.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Most fields that’s not you say oh a business in [00:47:00] a different area. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s hard making money in general. It’s hard making money [00:47:05] dentistry let alone in.

Natalie Gabrawi: Yeah I mean 50% of businesses fail.

[TRANSITION]: Within their first year.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:47:10] But what do you reckon. What kind of thing are we talking? I mean, uh, Alicia [00:47:15] said teaching. What’s this sort of extracurricular thing that we’re. Are you going to [00:47:20] buy properties? Are you going to become an influencer? Sell something on Instagram?

Natalie Gabrawi: Alicia [00:47:25] definitely will be an influencer. As in, I have [00:47:30] been thinking, I do want to make a product that will benefit other people.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, Dental.

[TRANSITION]: Product. [00:47:35]

Natalie Gabrawi: Yeah, I have.

[TRANSITION]: I can I can.

Payman Langroudi: Help a.

[TRANSITION]: Lot.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I can help a lot.

Natalie Gabrawi: I’m still like thinking [00:47:40] about I have like a notes app where every time I think of a new business idea, I write it down. So there is. [00:47:45] But nothing’s stuck with me just yet, I just. I want to have a positive [00:47:50] influence on the world or do something that will make someone’s life better. And I think, yeah, I could own [00:47:55] a dental practice, but that’s very minimal. I want to do bigger than than that or reach [00:48:00] out. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know what at your very stage, I had that very thought.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And [00:48:05] years later, I realised it was childish.

[TRANSITION]: Well, I’m glad you’re [00:48:10] telling me this now. That’s good. No, I was saying. I was saying.

Payman Langroudi: In my room with my nurse [00:48:15] thinking, is this it? Yeah. And I thought if I was the best dentist in the whole [00:48:20] town, I’d still be this town. And impact wise, it [00:48:25] was doing my head in. I spoke to my boss about it, and he was like, number one impact. It could [00:48:30] be depth, not breadth. You know, like impacting one person in a deep way is just [00:48:35] as valuable as impacting the whole country in a shallow way. That’s true. Alright. He’s right about that. But then, [00:48:40] um, later on. That’s why I did enlighten. You know, I’m going to have impact. [00:48:45] Impact? I wanted to make adverts or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Um, later on, I realised I could have had 100 [00:48:50] dental practices. If you want to have impact.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You could. You could stick in dental practices and [00:48:55] have impact. Products are hard. That’s much harder than services. Much, [00:49:00] much harder. So I can I can definitely help you not lose half £1 million, [00:49:05] which is how much.

[TRANSITION]: It cost.

Payman Langroudi: How much it costs. Yeah. And it’s that risk, right? If let’s say Alicia [00:49:10] said, I’m going to take my half a million, I’m going to start a practice or I’m going to buy a practice, something like that, something very [00:49:15] safe, um, or a house and rent it out. And you said, I’m going to put my 500,000 [00:49:20] into a toothpaste.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You’re you’re in a much.

[TRANSITION]: Bigger.

Payman Langroudi: Chance [00:49:25] of losing your 500,000 than than you are. But people make products, right? [00:49:30] Like.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, you got my teeth whitening, so I’m not complaining. Yeah. [00:49:35] It’s interesting. Yeah.

Natalie Gabrawi: Going back to the, um, having that one like its [00:49:40] depth. Not. I do think I do enjoy changing someone’s smile [00:49:45] and having that impact on someone’s life. I think, yeah, there’s just so much there’s [00:49:50] so much more to dentistry than just sitting in a practice or owning a practice. And I think that’s what [00:49:55] we’re both trying to explore at the moment.

Payman Langroudi: How are you guys feeling about AI?

[TRANSITION]: Because [00:50:00] this is going.

Payman Langroudi: To be interesting. In three years time. We’re going to it’s going to be much clearer what AI did [00:50:05] to us.

Natalie Gabrawi: We are in one of the safest professions, I think. I don’t think AI is going to take over our jobs [00:50:10] at any point, which we’re lucky.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah, but we were listening to a podcast literally the other day. It [00:50:15] was diary of a CEO, and it was about, um, how AI is changing the world. And that got me really thinking. [00:50:20] And it’s scary. I think that was also when, you know, when you start thinking, [00:50:25] oh, do you want your kids to grow up in a world like this? It’s just taking over so quickly, and I’m gonna take [00:50:30] myself accountable for even with some small things, I have to go on ChatGPT and I’m [00:50:35] using it because of the ease of it. And it’s scary because you can’t stop yourself to some.

[TRANSITION]: Extent with [00:50:40] it.

Alisha Sagar: There’s nothing wrong with it. But I think sometimes you just stop thinking for yourself. Sometimes [00:50:45] when.

[TRANSITION]: You.

Natalie Gabrawi: Barely had it at uni and now there’s people at uni that are using it.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Natalie Gabrawi: For everything. [00:50:50]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah, I don’t know. What about you?

Natalie Gabrawi: I just I think it’s making [00:50:55] people work. Yes, it’s making people work less, but they’re [00:51:00] not working as hard, I think, to get the same.

Payman Langroudi: You got it wrong. I think it’s only because we’re. [00:51:05]

[TRANSITION]: In.

Payman Langroudi: The transitional phase now. Yeah. Where people only had their own [00:51:10] head to work with. Yeah. So? So the amount of work that’s expected is a lot less. [00:51:15] If if it was expected that everyone had access to super intelligence, [00:51:20] the what people will want from you is way more than what you’re putting out right now. Yeah. You know, [00:51:25] like we were looking at our social media. Um, yeah. Uh, output.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: We’re [00:51:30] putting as a as enlightened. We’re putting four posts a week. Yeah. [00:51:35]

Natalie Gabrawi: It makes your life easier in the sense that it’s so much better to get AI to do the mundane jobs, or the little [00:51:40] things like or marketing advice, things like that. And I think it will make it will free us [00:51:45] up from.

[TRANSITION]: To.

Natalie Gabrawi: Do more, which I do agree with.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, what you said about we’re not going to get replaced. [00:51:50]

[TRANSITION]: Um, no.

Alisha Sagar: I don’t.

[TRANSITION]: Know.

Payman Langroudi: Well, well, well, well, the way it’s going, the [00:51:55] way it right now, it’s going. For instance, the driverless cars.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s hundreds [00:52:00] of thousands of, of of rides being had in driverless cars right now. Waymo. Right. Yeah. And the way the way it’s [00:52:05] going is that one driver is driving 30 cars.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So the cars there [00:52:10] are moments where the cars don’t know what to do. And they go back to base. And the guy there’s a human in [00:52:15] base takes care of whatever it is. It could happen in industry easily, man. It could [00:52:20] be a little unit you stick on the teeth. Yeah, some. Some nurse sees the patient and some guy sitting in Indonesia [00:52:25] pushes the button, and he’s doing 400 fillings at a time when [00:52:30] it could happen.

[TRANSITION]: I have thought about that.

Natalie Gabrawi: But then that means all your patients have to be sedated. No, as Because I [00:52:35] don’t think if you tried to get a kid to sit down still, that’s difficult enough as it is. But then to get an [00:52:40] AI machine to then do a filling on them, I think there’s.

[TRANSITION]: From.

Payman Langroudi: The patient perspective is [00:52:45] weird anyway, right? There’s a machine that’s.

[TRANSITION]: Just you’re just opening your mouth.

Natalie Gabrawi: Like the. [00:52:50]

Payman Langroudi: You’re right though, it’s not going to be the first thing that goes, I mean, sales, marketing [00:52:55] these things.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Even, uh, psychiatrists, radiologists.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Those guys [00:53:00] are in more trouble. Anyone sitting in front of a screen is in massive trouble.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alisha Sagar: I [00:53:05] think that’s what I think about more, is just how much the rate of unemployment is going [00:53:10] to go up as AI takes over, and that scares me because when that happens, then people are gonna there’s [00:53:15] going to be more crime. And when that happens, there’s a whole butterfly effect. And I think that’s what scares me of how bad it can get. [00:53:20] Um, so yeah, I don’t know. That side of things really stresses me out when I think about it, [00:53:25] to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, look, you’re right, these are dangerous times because there’s [00:53:30] wars and things and but there’s always been wars. Was during Covid. I was thinking [00:53:35] about like some, some poor guy who was born during the First World War, you know, [00:53:40] like First World War. Then you had your Spanish flu thing from 1920. [00:53:45] Then the Second World War. Yeah. And all through that innovation, TV, [00:53:50] radio, electricity, like planes, jets, rockets, bombs, nuclear [00:53:55] bombs, you know, that stuff has been happening for humanity for a long time. And you can [00:54:00] choose to look at the fear side of it, and you should. Right? Because with AI, there’s this non-zero. [00:54:05]

[TRANSITION]: Risk.

Payman Langroudi: That literally it’s going to some AI is going to.

[TRANSITION]: Make a mistake and like, suck [00:54:10] all.

Payman Langroudi: The oxygen out of the world.

[TRANSITION]: Or something.

Payman Langroudi: Like it’s possible, right? So we need to worry. But [00:54:15] but I wouldn’t worry to the point that I’m seriously worried. I’m much more hopeful in that a lot more work could [00:54:20] get done. It’s interesting.

Natalie Gabrawi: Humans are very adaptable as well, I think.

[TRANSITION]: And what?

Natalie Gabrawi: Humans are very adaptable. [00:54:25] I think we do change with the times very easily. So I think a lot [00:54:30] of good can come from it, but I don’t know if there’s enough good people that want the same goodness [00:54:35] in the world. Does that make.

[TRANSITION]: Sense?

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to like, spirituality. Were you born here or were you born?

Natalie Gabrawi: I was born here. [00:54:40]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Are you Coptic?

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Natalie Gabrawi: Oh. You’re not.

Alisha Sagar: I’m Hindu. [00:54:45]

[TRANSITION]: Hindu? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So, do you believe in God?

Natalie Gabrawi: I do believe in God. Yes.

[TRANSITION]: And you [00:54:50] do?

Alisha Sagar: I believe in an energy. That’s a positive energy. I would, I’d if [00:54:55] that’s what I would call God, then. Yes, but I don’t really say that I believe in God. I just believe that there’s this [00:55:00] energy that kind of goes around that keeps everything balanced.

Payman Langroudi: Like a [00:55:05] good energy.

Alisha Sagar: There’s good and there’s bad energy. Yeah. But, um, I think there’s just like a a [00:55:10] powerful. I sound like I’m in Star Wars now, but I was going to say a powerful force.

[TRANSITION]: That’s [00:55:15] what.

Payman Langroudi: I’m interested. Have you always thought this or has your has your belief, like.

[TRANSITION]: Evolved [00:55:20] to this?

Alisha Sagar: Yeah. It’s evolved, I think when I was younger growing [00:55:25] up in my parents are they’re not very, very religious. But you know, we’d always say like, oh, let’s pray to God [00:55:30] together. Let’s do this. Let’s do that. And, um, my brother’s atheist. So, um, hearing [00:55:35] his views, hearing my parents views, I and then having my own personal views, meeting so many different people [00:55:40] and hearing their views, I think it just kind of changed over time. And I yeah, I mean, I [00:55:45] do still pray.

[TRANSITION]: Um.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah, I do pray.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, when you’re in trouble or every.

[TRANSITION]: Day [00:55:50] when I.

Alisha Sagar: Have exams. Um, no, I do try pray once in a while. I think when I’m [00:55:55] going through it, then maybe I’ll pray a bit more, which is really bad. I should probably. I don’t [00:56:00] have that continuous. I don’t yeah, I don’t know what the right word.

Payman Langroudi: What are you doing when you’re praying? [00:56:05] Are you asking for stuff?

Alisha Sagar: I don’t ask for stuff for myself. But I’ll pray for, like, my family’s health [00:56:10] and things like that, and I don’t. That’s the thing is, I don’t know who I’m praying to. I’m not like, as per putting it on, I’m praying to God, [00:56:15] but I just I find like there’s a peace that comes within me when I when I do that. And [00:56:20] that’s enough for me to say that. Yeah, I pray for that reason. So yeah, I wouldn’t say I’m [00:56:25] the most religious person. I don’t go to the temple a lot. Um, but I [00:56:30] do. Yeah. I do still pray to to this this positive.

[TRANSITION]: Force.

Natalie Gabrawi: Going [00:56:35] through stressful times as well. It’s it’s not always a bad thing to pray when you’re stressed. [00:56:40] But I do think that when we it the fact that you’re going to [00:56:45] pray or you want that you’re going to God or to, um, whoever you believe in [00:56:50] through that stressful time shows that that’s what your fallback is. That’s what you rely on. So I used to always feel guilty [00:56:55] when I didn’t pray, when the times were good, and I only prayed when the times were bad. But I don’t necessarily think that’s always [00:57:00] a bad thing, because that’s who you turn to when things are hard.

[TRANSITION]: So yes.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:57:05] important to forgive yourself more in life, right?

[TRANSITION]: For [00:57:10] sure.

Payman Langroudi: It’s, you know, to worry about that. So are you quite Christian?

[TRANSITION]: Are [00:57:15] you?

Natalie Gabrawi: Yeah. So I do go to church every week and.

[TRANSITION]: Oh. Do you?

Natalie Gabrawi: Yeah, I do try. My parents will kill [00:57:20] me if I didn’t. No.

[TRANSITION]: Joking.

Natalie Gabrawi: Um, no, I think it’s not [00:57:25] even just going just for the religion part of it. But I think just meeting people that believe the same as [00:57:30] you, and I think.

[TRANSITION]: That’s why we’ve got something.

Payman Langroudi: Nice about.

[TRANSITION]: It. There’s something nice about it.

Natalie Gabrawi: And I think it’s I’m a very optimistic [00:57:35] person, and I think that is because I’m religious, because I just leave it all in God’s hands. And [00:57:40] like you’re asking, what am I going to do in the future? It’s in God’s hands. I if it if he wants me to go [00:57:45] a certain way, I’ll go that way. And I think that makes me put less pressure myself. And [00:57:50] it has. Yeah. Just made me think more positively just about life in general, because I don’t have [00:57:55] time to stress. Well, maybe sometimes, but most of the time, yeah, I just yeah, if it all [00:58:00] works out in the end, I think.

[TRANSITION]: I think also.

Payman Langroudi: From an identity perspective, right. In that region, [00:58:05] it’s very important to the Christians to be Christian [00:58:10] because a minority and being there for thousands of years and Christ was in that sort of region, [00:58:15] and it makes a lot of difference to sort of be part of that identity. Right. But [00:58:20] the question of, you know, like, does it help or not? Or sure, I’m [00:58:25] sure it helps. Yeah. When have you been most tested? Like when? When did you. Like, when was [00:58:30] your faith most tested?

[TRANSITION]: Really?

Natalie Gabrawi: Good question. I think it’s quite deep, but I had [00:58:35] a family member that was really unwell. Didn’t think they were going to make it. And it got [00:58:40] to a point where I had to accept that if that was God’s plan for [00:58:45] them to to go, then it would be. And I think that gave me a bit more peace. And I think, yeah, of course I [00:58:50] prayed that they would get better. And I was like, why, why, why them? Um, and I think [00:58:55] then it then they got a lot better. And then it came back a few years later and I think [00:59:00] I was like, well, like, this is so unfair. And I think just [00:59:05] having to yeah, just go through that period with my family as well. And I think [00:59:10] I learned a lot that if it’s just to look at the positives of that [00:59:15] and yeah, there is suffering in the world and things like that. But as long as [00:59:20] you’ve got a good support network, you’ve got good people around you. You have that faith [00:59:25] in God to get you through it. So I always knew no matter what happens, even when I do go through tough times, [00:59:30] I know God will get me through it. So that’s how I try to stay optimistic. Optimistic [00:59:35] about things because it’s so easy to be like to think, why me? Why is [00:59:40] this happening? Why them? And I think you’re not going to gain anything from thinking that way. So [00:59:45] yeah, that definitely then. And I think that’s why I have such a positive outlook now on [00:59:50] life.

Payman Langroudi: Hopefully you stay positive. Hopefully hopefully you do.

[TRANSITION]: You know it’ll.

Natalie Gabrawi: Take a lot [00:59:55] for me not to.

[TRANSITION]: I think. Big smiles.

Payman Langroudi: On.

[TRANSITION]: Both.

Payman Langroudi: Of your.

[TRANSITION]: Faces. Nice to see you.

Payman Langroudi: Nice to see. But you know [01:00:00] that that question, uh, how do you feel when you when you see someone else? I mean, not even your own life. Yeah. [01:00:05] You see some some kid got born today, bombed three days later. Died?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How [01:00:10] do you. What do you. What’s the God perspective on that? What do you how [01:00:15] do you.

[TRANSITION]: It’s so hard to.

Payman Langroudi: Process.

[TRANSITION]: That.

Natalie Gabrawi: Yeah. Because I do think like why me why why am I not that kid? [01:00:20] Why why have I been put in this position. And I think maybe it [01:00:25] is difficult because like, why does God allow suffering in the world? That’s kind of what you’re asking.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, [01:00:30] yeah, yeah, yeah.

Natalie Gabrawi: And I think it’s we. [01:00:35]

[TRANSITION]: In.

Payman Langroudi: Mysterious.

[TRANSITION]: Ways.

Natalie Gabrawi: We have free will at the end of the day. So I don’t think God can control what everyone [01:00:40] I think people do do wrong because they’re inherently not great [01:00:45] people. And I think if God was to interfere with that, then we wouldn’t have free will at the end of the day, and then [01:00:50] we wouldn’t have this whole heaven and hell. And that’s what I believe in personally. But, um, [01:00:55] yeah, if if everything was all good, I just we would be like robots. [01:01:00] We would be like the AI, we wouldn’t have a say in in what we do.

[TRANSITION]: And yeah, [01:01:05] I think.

Payman Langroudi: I think it does.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I think an interesting question is should there be. God. Um, [01:01:10] yeah. Like should there be a third party?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Looking over [01:01:15] everything we’re doing all the time. Yeah.

Natalie Gabrawi: If I, if there wasn’t, I think I’d go crazy. [01:01:20]

Payman Langroudi: No. But should there be like should, should, should when I’m on my own?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Should there be [01:01:25] someone looking out for me? Like looking out? Not for me.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Natalie Gabrawi: Looking out.

Payman Langroudi: Looking.

[TRANSITION]: Over.

Natalie Gabrawi: The [01:01:30] Truman Show. Like people.

[TRANSITION]: Just watching. Yeah, yeah, like.

Payman Langroudi: We could arrange it.

[TRANSITION]: Right?

Payman Langroudi: If [01:01:35] it’s. If it’s the right move. Yeah, we could arrange it. It would fundamentally change what it is to be a human. [01:01:40]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But you believe that anyway, right? You believe God is constantly [01:01:45] looking.

Natalie Gabrawi: Out for me than looking directly [01:01:50] at me. Does that make sense?

Payman Langroudi: Works for you.

Natalie Gabrawi: I [01:01:55] think if everyone thought like that, everyone would be Christian. Then not so, I do think.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: While [01:02:00] we’re on this show, let’s just hit the darker part while we’re at it. What was your darkest day [01:02:05] so far in dentistry?

Alisha Sagar: In dentistry? I think for [01:02:10] me, it was probably in first year when we had our first summative, and I [01:02:15] think it was a huge kind of like I just had to pattern myself because I [01:02:20] realised I had to put in a bit more work. I think coming from school, where you’re always excelling at grades [01:02:25] to get into dentistry and then you’re in.

[TRANSITION]: The first.

Payman Langroudi: Time you ever got knocked back.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah, it was [01:02:30] my so I didn’t. Thankfully, I didn’t fail this exam, but I literally passed by like a couple of marks. [01:02:35] But no.

[TRANSITION]: I know the whole of my dental [01:02:40] school.

Payman Langroudi: The whole of.

[TRANSITION]: My GCSE A-levels, I.

Alisha Sagar: Think.

[TRANSITION]: I don’t know why it.

Alisha Sagar: Hit me so hard that day. I think [01:02:45] it’s.

[TRANSITION]: Just because you’re.

Payman Langroudi: This perfectionist.

[TRANSITION]: Person.

Alisha Sagar: I think, yeah, you just kind of grow up thinking that you’re [01:02:50] super. I think that was like a day where I came to terms with the fact that, like, I’m not the smartest.

[TRANSITION]: It’s humbling. [01:02:55] Humbling.

Alisha Sagar: It was a humbling experience, and I think I just realised that I [01:03:00] need to put in a bit more work. And I was I was falling behind on, on lectures. And [01:03:05] I think that when I got my results for that, I think a lot of my friends as well did really well. Um, and [01:03:10] then I got my grades and you compare yourself because this is the first time where you’re in a room of people who are [01:03:15] super, super smart, everyone, they’re smart, and you start to compare yourself and say, what am I doing wrong to? To [01:03:20] not be getting the grades I should be getting. But I mean, over time, I. I did become a lot more, [01:03:25] you know, to terms with the fact that in dental school you’re not going to always get the best grades. And it’s okay, especially [01:03:30] in first year when I was learning things that were not relevant to dentistry, and [01:03:35] it was just a lot of theory heavy. So that was like a humbling experience, I think. Yeah, that day [01:03:40] got me down, but I don’t know if that’s. Yeah, I’m trying to think if there might have been a darker day.

Payman Langroudi: Have [01:03:45] you made any errors?

Alisha Sagar: Um, the one error that I, I think we haven’t been [01:03:50] doing dentistry that long for me. I think they will come a day and I’ve come [01:03:55] to terms with that, that people will make mistakes that are big. But, um, one, [01:04:00] uh, experience I always go back to and I think it’s funny to look at it now, [01:04:05] but it taught me a good lesson of counting teeth was, um, I didn’t extract the wrong tooth, don’t worry. But [01:04:10] it was in second year. First patient. First patient was my now fiance. So he [01:04:15] was my boyfriend Then I was like, can I book you? And he needed, I think, a fissure sealant or something. [01:04:20] And I was like, I’ll book him in. It will be good. First patient, nothing to worry about. [01:04:25] And the tutor, just for experience sake, was like, put a rubber dam and clamp on just so that, you know, even [01:04:30] though you’re just doing fissure sealant. Good experience. So put the rubber dam and clamp on. And [01:04:35] I think we all know where this is going. I thought I did a sick job, I was like, wow, my rubber dam looks amazing. Call [01:04:40] my tutor over. And she looks at it. She’s like, what do you think you did wrong? And and she was. And [01:04:45] I was thinking, this looks amazing. I don’t know what you’re asking about. And I was like, um, did I just start being, [01:04:50] like a little bit critical and things I didn’t actually think were true? And she was like, you’ve clamped the wrong tooth. And I was like, [01:04:55] oh my gosh, this is so embarrassing. And, uh, yeah.

[TRANSITION]: I.

Natalie Gabrawi: Didn’t break [01:05:00] up with you.

Alisha Sagar: And yeah, that that experience taught me that. Don’t [01:05:05] be overconfident and count your teeth. And silly mistakes like this [01:05:10] can happen.

[TRANSITION]: So you’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Never perforated.

[TRANSITION]: You’ve never I haven’t perforated.

Alisha Sagar: I was close to perforating [01:05:15] for one of my patients, but thankfully I kind of. I was like, this access cavity [01:05:20] is too big, I need to call my EOS in. She was like, take an x ray, took an x ray. She was like, you can’t go [01:05:25] any further, um, because you will perforate. So these mistakes do happen. But touchwood, [01:05:30] that hasn’t happened.

Payman Langroudi: What about a learning point? Clinically, like you saw, you did something. It didn’t [01:05:35] work. You realised to pay more attention to something.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What was that? Surely you must have had [01:05:40] a few of those.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah, I think I think probably my communication. I think my communication is good. But when it [01:05:45] comes down to you having all these patients and you’re basically making [01:05:50] the decisions now, you’ve not got a tutor standing behind you to back you up. So I think I’ve had a couple [01:05:55] of situations where I reflected on possibly I could have communicated something better, [01:06:00] and I’ll reflect on a specific case with a patient who came in for a check-up. And I [01:06:05] took some X-rays, very deep caries, probably 6 or 7 carious lesions, very close [01:06:10] to pulp, three of them. And I did put across that, you know, very high risk root canal treatment, [01:06:15] um, extraction that. But I think one thing I didn’t touch upon was post-operative [01:06:20] pain, and, uh, did a couple of fillings. Fine. Then it came to the [01:06:25] one of the molars where I treated, and a couple days after he called reception [01:06:30] and he was like, I’m in so much pain. And it was excruciating. The tooth ended up needing [01:06:35] to have a root canal, but I reflected a lot on that case in terms of communication. And yeah, [01:06:40] I think that’s obviously the biggest thing. But yeah, I think making sure that [01:06:45] you touch on every single possibility and it wasn’t something that I purposely left behind, I just didn’t [01:06:50] really emphasise it as much as I probably should have. So that’s happened. But it taught me, and I think that’s [01:06:55] why I’ve loved Foundation, in the sense that you just hit a lot of learning curves and you learn so much [01:07:00] in terms of your communication and how that can improve every day. I’m learning, and I think.

[TRANSITION]: In.

Payman Langroudi: A situation you’re [01:07:05] super proud of, like something you did in the last year, that’s really been amazing.

Alisha Sagar: Oh yeah. So this was my case [01:07:10] presentation Patient for foundation year. Lovely patient. She came in and she [01:07:15] didn’t even want to smile at me. And when I looked at her teeth, I. I understood why. To [01:07:20] be honest, it carries everywhere. Was that typical green caries on the on the anterior teeth? And, [01:07:25] uh. Yeah. Planned for a couple of extractions, couple of fillings and dentures. And [01:07:30] honestly, like, when we fit the denture, I was really worried because it was an immediate fit [01:07:35] and I didn’t think it was going to fit right. Um, but if it amazing and like [01:07:40] that was the first time where I, I saw like a huge impact on, on a, [01:07:45] on a patient. Normally it’s just like a, you know, a small thing. But she when she looked in the mirror and she smiled [01:07:50] like that literally just made my day and she just she kept hugging me and the nurse, she was like, I can’t believe this. Like it.

[TRANSITION]: Was.

Natalie Gabrawi: Unrecognisable. [01:07:55]

Alisha Sagar: Yeah. And it was. Yeah. And like the first picture before was just of the teeth because she didn’t [01:08:00] want to smile to the camera. And then when we got her to smile to the camera and she smiled, it [01:08:05] was just like a new person. So that’s something that case is something I’m super proud of. Um. But [01:08:10] yeah, it taught me a lot. And.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, so amazing. You know, that genuine thank you from a patient. [01:08:15]

Alisha Sagar: That that feels. I think.

[TRANSITION]: That’s.

Alisha Sagar: The.

[TRANSITION]: Best feeling in the world.

Payman Langroudi: Part of.

[TRANSITION]: Dentistry.

Alisha Sagar: Oh, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: It’s such [01:08:20] a weird thing.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alisha Sagar: No, I, I don’t you just feel a different way when, like, you can and you can see [01:08:25] it on their face. It’s not just like, you know, obviously patients are grateful and most of the time they will say thank [01:08:30] you. But when you see that when I saw the expression change, just a whole new personality come through, [01:08:35] that was something that I was super proud of and it made me like, want to do that for every patient. But obviously I [01:08:40] know not everyone’s gonna need a, you know, full mouth transformation, but.

[TRANSITION]: But.

Payman Langroudi: Implants, you [01:08:45] can really you can change lives with implants more than the rest of dentistry because, you know, not only [01:08:50] the way you look, the way you eat. Yeah. You know, there’s there’s so many people, like, embarrassed of removable [01:08:55] items in their mouths.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You change someone’s life completely.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alisha Sagar: And I think I saw that when I was shadowing [01:09:00] Tony when he did an all on four and all on six case, and like, it [01:09:05] was just a different person when when when they looked at at this smile and these [01:09:10] were just the temporaries and looking at the cases together and just seeing what could be done to achieve [01:09:15] that result was amazing. I couldn’t even when one of the patients walked in for a review, I, [01:09:20] I was shocked that that was all implants in his mouth. It just looked so natural. [01:09:25] So him you wouldn’t even be able to tell that that was a different smile before. [01:09:30] Yeah. And then when you look at the before pictures, you’re like, wow, that’s insane. Like the transformation. [01:09:35] Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Natalie.

Payman Langroudi: If we’re talking darkest day.

Natalie Gabrawi: So I [01:09:40] unlike Nietzsche, I do have a specific patient. Um, so I’ve broken [01:09:45] a file before in a patient’s mouth. And that day when, when that happened, I was [01:09:50] like, oh, my gosh, I am the worst dentist ever. And I felt not only bad for the patient, [01:09:55] I just felt how could I? The patient came in needing a root canal has broken [01:10:00] out with a file in her mouth. I was like, that’s crazy. And then after talking to the dentist, [01:10:05] it does happen. And even when I’m going to do DCT next year, we do file retrieval and things like [01:10:10] that. And that’s what pushed me to do that more. And but what I realised, the main thing [01:10:15] I took from that is one make sure you only fair enough. But two the patient [01:10:20] left apologising to me. She felt bad that I broke the file in her mouth and I was like no, no, no. [01:10:25] Like it’s fine. Like it’s just the way her anatomy was. It was a very curved upper right six. [01:10:30] And I realised with that good communication, it doesn’t all have to be like the scariest [01:10:35] thing in the world. Not every patient is going to, um, yeah. Like they do understand if you’ve communicated the [01:10:40] risks and the benefits and what can happen, then it will be fine. But I remember thinking, am I going to Alicia [01:10:45] and going to the fact I was like, oh no, Alicia, you’re never going to guess. Like, I just feel like it’s such a bad dentist [01:10:50] and.

[TRANSITION]: It’s so easy. Fast break. Yeah.

Natalie Gabrawi: I didn’t realise that in the moment.

[TRANSITION]: It’s not one of those.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not [01:10:55] even one of those mistakes you can learn much from, you.

[TRANSITION]: Know, because.

Natalie Gabrawi: I’ve.

[TRANSITION]: Kind of felt what you’ve done.

Payman Langroudi: Differently. It’s weird. [01:11:00]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Natalie Gabrawi: That’s I probably would have referred earlier maybe or referred on the NHS, But then. [01:11:05]

[TRANSITION]: So.

Payman Langroudi: Are you saying when I say darkest day, that that error caused you proper [01:11:10] anxiety?

[TRANSITION]: Like I caused you stress, anxious person.

Natalie Gabrawi: So not a lot will cause me [01:11:15] stress, I think. Yeah, I felt really bad for the patient. But darkest day in dentistry. [01:11:20] There was one time we got our sjt results and I didn’t rank that great. [01:11:25] And then me and Alicia had like, oh, we were going to live together. We’re going to be in the same practice or next to each other. [01:11:30] And then we got our results. This was before we knew where we were going to, what practice we were going to be in. And [01:11:35] I was like, oh, we’re going to be so far. We’re never going to get to live together. I think that for me was probably [01:11:40] worse than anything I’ve done.

[TRANSITION]: To to.

Natalie Gabrawi: Oh.

[TRANSITION]: I know friendship, [01:11:45] honestly.

Alisha Sagar: And I was like, no. Then we were like, we will make it work. If you’re in Southampton and I’m in reading, we’re living [01:11:50] in Basingstoke. Yeah.

Natalie Gabrawi: And then it works out. We’re both reading really good practices. [01:11:55] Um, but yeah, I think I put a lot of expectation on myself to live [01:12:00] with Alicia or be near her because I knew she was also going to be [01:12:05] with her fiance for a few years, so this was the only chance we would have had. And yeah, it worked out eventually, but I think [01:12:10] in the moment I was like, no.

Payman Langroudi: So we’re planning this little living together [01:12:15] thing to go on for how long? At least.

[TRANSITION]: A year.

Alisha Sagar: So next year she’s in London and I’m in Southampton. [01:12:20] So the journey ends here.

Natalie Gabrawi: It’ll be the furthest we’ve been apart.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:12:25] you’ve already decided you’re going to do two years?

[TRANSITION]: No, no.

Alisha Sagar: It’s. So Southampton is one year. [01:12:30]

[TRANSITION]: Oh, sorry.

Alisha Sagar: Oh, yeah. Yeah. So next year we won’t be living together.

Payman Langroudi: Next year you won’t be.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it’s [01:12:35] already kind of like.

[TRANSITION]: Coming to an end.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah, but it’s been a good year.

Natalie Gabrawi: It’s been a great year. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What else [01:12:40] can we say in three years time. What do you you could you want hopes and dreams like. Like [01:12:45] I mean, I don’t know, like financial goals. Like this year you’re earning [01:12:50] nothing, right? It’s like terrible. Yeah. I remember getting more in debt this year.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like. [01:12:55]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Natalie Gabrawi: When rent took out a big chunk of our. [01:13:00]

Alisha Sagar: Paycheque.

Natalie Gabrawi: This year. Yeah, I want to. I just want to. I think most my [01:13:05] paycheque, if I get a decent amount, I want to donate it and reinvest it back into people. [01:13:10] I think a lot of people have done a lot for Shanghai throughout uni. We’ve had a lot of mentorship and [01:13:15] I think I just want to give back and help other people get to where we are. If we’re somewhere very [01:13:20] successful in three years.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah, I think similar to Natalie, I want to be at a place where [01:13:25] financially I can help others as well and then also have enough [01:13:30] to travel more, I think.

Natalie Gabrawi: Do you go to Australia?

Alisha Sagar: Yes, [01:13:35] I do want to travel more, and I just want to be at a place where I don’t. I think it’s important to budget. I’ve [01:13:40] always been quite good with budgeting, even if I’m earning a lot. Let’s say [01:13:45] I don’t like spending money on things that I know are pointless. So I’m. I’d [01:13:50] like to think I’m quite smart with my money, so I just want to. Yeah. So yeah, financially, [01:13:55] I’d want to be at a place where I’m comfortable and can also help. I want to give some money back as well [01:14:00] to some of the places in Zambia as well that I grew up around. Like there’s a couple of orphanages around [01:14:05] where I lived that I would go and volunteer at, and they they have nothing. So [01:14:10] just giving back to the communities.

Natalie Gabrawi: Yeah, I know you had Andrea on here and he does [01:14:15] the mobile smile. So I really want to get involved in that and.

[TRANSITION]: Do.

Natalie Gabrawi: More of their mission trips. Looks [01:14:20] insane. Yeah, they they do a lot. And I think I’ve always said I wanted to do one of their missions. [01:14:25] So hopefully one day I will.

[TRANSITION]: Do you know him?

Natalie Gabrawi: Yeah. We grew up together, actually. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: So. [01:14:30]

Natalie Gabrawi: Uh, so because he was from Derby, so it’s.

[TRANSITION]: Oh that’s.

Natalie Gabrawi: Similar. Yeah. So we used to go to the [01:14:35] same church growing up.

[TRANSITION]: Really?

Natalie Gabrawi: Yeah. Um, but yeah, I do want to. I think it’s [01:14:40] such a good cause and great stuff that they’re doing. Lovely guy. Yeah. Good guy.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:14:45]

Payman Langroudi: Alright, so we do want to end this pod with, um, a fantasy dinner party. I’ll [01:14:50] be interested. Maybe in three years time. You have different.

[TRANSITION]: Answers to that question.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but right now, [01:14:55] if you could have dinner with any three people, dead or alive, who [01:15:00] would you choose?

Alisha Sagar: Do you want to go first?

Natalie Gabrawi: So I think I’ve never met [01:15:05] my grandads. I definitely from either my mom or dad’s side. Yeah. So I really want to meet them, [01:15:10] ask them so many questions about what my parents were like as kids, because my parents seem like such great role models now. [01:15:15] But I know my dad’s probably spilt milk somewhere or done something cheap, you know? Um, so yeah, [01:15:20] either one of those or maybe both of them. I don’t know if this is a cop out answer, but maybe my younger self. [01:15:25] Yeah, I think I would probably tell her to, um. Yeah. Just to [01:15:30] keep smiling. Don’t let anything get to you and just tell her that. Yeah, we are where we are now. And [01:15:35] I think just to stay positive.

Payman Langroudi: It’s going to be alright kind of thing.

Natalie Gabrawi: Yeah, it’s going to be all right. And [01:15:40] lastly, maybe Lewis Hamilton I think I’m [01:15:45] really into formula one. Yeah I really love it. And he was one of the drivers [01:15:50] that his dad had to work three, three, four jobs to get him to where he is. And I think [01:15:55] he sounds like he comes from a very humble background, and I just would love to just sit down and just [01:16:00] chat to him and see. See what? Maybe drive a formula one car one day. Maybe [01:16:05] that would be my three year goal.

[TRANSITION]: But yeah.

Natalie Gabrawi: I think those would be my three.

Alisha Sagar: Um, so [01:16:10] first I’m going to go with is my granddad. He is alive. He lives in India. [01:16:15] Um, he and my grandma, they grew up. They [01:16:20] were in Zambia as well. So we grew up around them a lot. And they played a huge role in the in the person who I am today [01:16:25] and in my upbringing. So honestly, any day that I could pick [01:16:30] anyone to have dinner with, if it was every day I would pick my granddad. I was very I’m still very, very close to him. [01:16:35] Call him every week. We just have really good chats and yeah, he’s just such a wise guy. I [01:16:40] learn a lot from him every time I talk to him, so I’d pick him up. This one, [01:16:45] this one’s probably a bit of a random one, but I’m a very curious person and I love to read up on conspiracy [01:16:50] theories. So I’m going to go with someone from the Egyptian empire, because I’d want to know how the pyramids [01:16:55] were built. So I’m very intrigued about that sort of stuff. So I’d go with that. [01:17:00] And then finally, I’d probably go with maybe [01:17:05] Princess Diana because every Asian mom is obsessed with her. So [01:17:10] I grew up with my mom being obsessed with her, with my aunties being obsessed with her, and I’ve just watched a lot of her [01:17:15] interviews. I think she’s seems like an amazing person. She did a lot of humanitarian work, brought [01:17:20] a lot of attention to a lot of world topics that previously didn’t have attention. So I think she would just be a [01:17:25] phenomenal woman to talk to and just, yeah, get her insight on. I think she also humanised the royal [01:17:30] family in certain ways, and that was amazing to to watch as well. And how open she was. [01:17:35] Very true to herself, very like Boss Woman. Didn’t care what other people thought. Yeah. I just think she [01:17:40] would be amazing to me. So yeah, her.

Payman Langroudi: As a conspiracy theorist.

Alisha Sagar: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: What do [01:17:45] you think happened to her?

Alisha Sagar: Oh I’m not.

[TRANSITION]: I don’t say anything.

Alisha Sagar: I don’t want to say anything.

[TRANSITION]: On. [01:17:50]

Alisha Sagar: On video.

[TRANSITION]: I do want to know what happened. Yeah.

Alisha Sagar: I just want to know.

Payman Langroudi: That’s why you wanted the party, right? [01:17:55]

[TRANSITION]: I mean, yeah.

Alisha Sagar: That’s that’s.

[TRANSITION]: Literally.

Alisha Sagar: Yeah, but [01:18:00] there’s three people. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I really enjoyed this.

Alisha Sagar: No. Same. This has.

Natalie Gabrawi: Been amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Thank [01:18:05] you so much for coming.

[TRANSITION]: Thank you. Thank you so much for having us.

[VOICE]: This [01:18:10] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one [01:18:15] on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:18:20] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:18:25] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:18:30] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve [01:18:35] had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [01:18:40]

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [01:18:45] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so so much for listening. [01:18:50] Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast has been brought to you by Mini Smile Makeover. Mini Smile Makeover is a two day anterior [00:00:05] composite course led by the extraordinary talented doctor Dipesh Palmer. Two [00:00:10] days of full on, hands on composite training, purely focussed on [00:00:15] anterior work composite veneers, polishing, finishing, shade matching. You also [00:00:20] get a free enlightened kit. Plus we have a great time and a party in the middle. Find out the dates. [00:00:25] Mini smile makeover.com. Now let’s get back to the podcast.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. [00:00:35] The podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:00:40] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome Doctor Aditi Bhalla onto the podcast. Aditi [00:00:55] is a specialist prosthodontist who is no longer working because [00:01:00] of medical concerns we’ll get into. But at the same time, a [00:01:05] intuitive, integrative psychotherapist, life coach, um, [00:01:10] healing through meditation, yoga. I see so many things you do, [00:01:15] I don’t even understand some of it. So massive pleasure to have you.

Aditi Bhalla: Thank you. Thank you [00:01:20] so much for having me. I’m really excited for the conversation ahead.

Payman Langroudi: It feels like you’ve done podcasts before, have you?

Aditi Bhalla: Yes. [00:01:25] Have you just just like a couple? Not yeah. Not in person. I was just. [00:01:30]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Aditi Bhalla: Really? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So this is this is good. It’s nice to have the in-person interaction [00:01:35] and. Yeah, it’s always better.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me let’s let’s just dive straight in and [00:01:40] talk about, uh, kind of a typical situation of [00:01:45] a person, let’s call it stuck for whatever reason. Let’s [00:01:50] talk about what is what do you come across in our profession? Is it only dentists, by the way, [00:01:55] that you. Yes.

Aditi Bhalla: So also I work with some bankers and [00:02:00] medics, but it’s similar kind of theme. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Plastic dentists anyway. Yeah. [00:02:05] So you’re a dentist? I’m a dentist. A dentist is find themselves in a situation. [00:02:10] What kinds of situations are we talking when it comes to, you know, the kind of patients, the kind of [00:02:15] people you’re seeing?

Aditi Bhalla: The kind of people I’m seeing are mainly they come to me saying, well, [00:02:20] I’ve done everything I needed to and I’ve ticked all the boxes, but I still feel lost, [00:02:25] I feel unhappy, I feel anxious, I can’t sleep at night, I’m [00:02:30] lost. I don’t know what I’m doing. I don’t know where life is going and I need help. I feel like [00:02:35] nothing is moving forward. Nothing’s bringing me joy.

Payman Langroudi: Even though on paper everything looks [00:02:40] okay.

Aditi Bhalla: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So is it more like that than. Oh, I’ve got these on paper problems also [00:02:45] sometimes.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, they, they also sort of co-exist. Sort of. But yeah, [00:02:50] mainly it comes across as that, you know I don’t know I don’t know where life is going. Okay. [00:02:55]

Payman Langroudi: And then what is your central thesis on this subject like? Why? What has caused [00:03:00] this in this person? Seemingly high flyer. What has happened to make [00:03:05] them feel this way? I think in general, of course. Different for each person.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, different for each [00:03:10] person. But generally I think there’s a theme. We’re so busy ticking boxes [00:03:15] achieving, achieving, achieving. Even if you see people who enter dentistry, they’re all they’ve done really [00:03:20] well in.

Payman Langroudi: School.

Aditi Bhalla: Already. Yeah. Already high achievers. You know it’s just going so there’s with [00:03:25] everything there’s going to be a plateau right. You reach that and you start to question life. You start to [00:03:30] question.

Payman Langroudi: Is this it?

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. Is this it? Like, did I work so hard to just this. [00:03:35] And then there’s this constant worry about the materialistic things you know. So yeah [00:03:40] there’s that plateau point you reach and you [00:03:45] feel like you’re lost. You just don’t know. You were promised this happiness. [00:03:50] I say, yeah, but where is it? Yeah. And that’s the question that I mainly come across. And I [00:03:55] also see a bit of perfectionism.

Payman Langroudi: Over perfectionism.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. Yeah. Always.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:04:00] within us. It’s within us. The kind of person who ends up becoming a dentist.

Aditi Bhalla: Yes. Perfectionism [00:04:05] is I feel like it’s a criteria they look for. But don’t tell us.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:04:10] bet. I mean, you studied in India. Yes. I bet getting into dental school in India [00:04:15] is a nightmare. Like you have to be on top of your everything. Yeah. Top of your class and.

Aditi Bhalla: Top of your class. [00:04:20] Top of everything. You have to give this this central exam where you have to get a really high score to be [00:04:25] get chosen into dental school.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t mean to be the psychotherapist in this, in this [00:04:30] situation, but. But were you always this high achiever since day [00:04:35] dot or do you remember, like in your childhood, a moment like something some some sort of catalyst [00:04:40] that said, now you’re the brainy kid.

Aditi Bhalla: Like, I think between [00:04:45] me and my brother, I was always labelled a brainy kid. So I had to sort of keep proving myself.

Payman Langroudi: Keep that [00:04:50] going. Yeah. And that itself is a source of stress, right?

Aditi Bhalla: Like, I had to keep up to that reputation, [00:04:55] whereas I feel like my brother was just let. You know, let.

Payman Langroudi: Off like the sporty kid or whatever. The funny kid [00:05:00] or.

Aditi Bhalla: The naughty.

Payman Langroudi: Kid, like.

Aditi Bhalla: Nothing’s coming out. But actually he’s doing he’s doing really, really [00:05:05] well. And I’m just like. Why did I work?

Payman Langroudi: So have you got kids?

Aditi Bhalla: I’ve got I’ve got a little one. I’ve got [00:05:10] a four year old boy. Yeah, just the one.

Payman Langroudi: So you don’t recognise it yet. But what happens with [00:05:15] when you have 2 or 3 or however? I don’t know what I noticed here is the let’s say [00:05:20] the four year old starts reading six months ahead of his class because you [00:05:25] keep on getting him to read or adding or multiplying or whatever. Yeah, and he does. He does quite well. [00:05:30] Right. Because you kind of and then you think, oh, you’re really clever. Yeah. And then he like you said, he wants [00:05:35] to live up to that now. So he tries a bit harder to please you and you put him into the clever box. [00:05:40] Yeah. Second one comes along. Clever is taken. Yes. Yeah. Now what tends to happen is [00:05:45] a parent is you look out for something other than clever in this one, and funny or [00:05:50] sporty or naughty or whatever comes up and you’re going to put that one put, put that into [00:05:55] that sort of, um, pigeonhole. Yeah. And apparently a third one comes [00:06:00] along and apparently a billionaires are disproportionately the [00:06:05] fourth kid. Wow. Because the first three obvious things are taken and they have to be very, like, creative [00:06:10] to take a different pigeonhole, you know, one that’s they’re going to be comfortable being [00:06:15] an outsider and still achieving. Yeah. So do you recognise [00:06:20] literally that seven year old EDT, um, in your 27 [00:06:25] year old like, like wanting to be the best in dental school, the best and not thinking [00:06:30] outside of that, like you’re getting all your kudos from that. Yeah.

Aditi Bhalla: I mean, even at [00:06:35] seven years old, I was a very, very creative. I was the school. I was the school captain. I [00:06:40] was the leader of my group. I was playing harmonium. I was in every everything [00:06:45] that was going on, I was there, I was a part of it. I was winning it. I was doing it. [00:06:50]

Payman Langroudi: So was your first knock back the wrist situation or did you have others?

Aditi Bhalla: No, I’ve [00:06:55] had others in school. I think when we moved to Dubai, uh, it [00:07:00] was a massive move. I’d left all my friends behind. And it was a new school. New everything. Uh, [00:07:05] I did really poorly in one of my physics tests, and that was really the disappointment. [00:07:10] Not just what I felt, but what I saw in my parents eyes. Oh, I think that that [00:07:15] what really hit me like, oh, my God, like, what is going on? So yeah, [00:07:20] I think that that really hit me. Uh, and in similar thing happened [00:07:25] at uni when I was doing anatomy.

Payman Langroudi: And did you you [00:07:30] grew up in Dubai until university or before. Did you go back to India before [00:07:35] finishing school?

Aditi Bhalla: Before finishing school? Uh, no. So I [00:07:40] did my so for my high school from my high school, uh, point, I moved to Dubai.

Payman Langroudi: So then at the end, why didn’t [00:07:45] you go to university somewhere else other than India? Why? Why choose India? I think you could have gone somewhere [00:07:50] else.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, I could have. Uh, but my parents kind of made that decision for me. [00:07:55] But also, you know, you’re going away to a completely different country. You want to go back to the known, [00:08:00] and you want to be in a city where there are people around you. So if in case something happens, you can always fall back [00:08:05] on for help. And I think that was the reason why India was always [00:08:10] the point of choice.

Payman Langroudi: And then do you think you were going to specialise all along?

Aditi Bhalla: No.

Payman Langroudi: When [00:08:15] did you decide to do that? Why did you decide to do that?

Aditi Bhalla: I think I decided to do that after, [00:08:20] uh, after obviously finishing. When I was thinking for, thinking at, looking at career [00:08:25] paths, like, what do I want to do? Uh, almost everybody. Because, again, all high achievers, [00:08:30] they go on to doing specialist training in India. Yeah, yeah. So I said, right, this is what I need to do. [00:08:35] Uh, but then, yeah, prosthodontics sort of just came along. [00:08:40] It wasn’t my first choice. It was, however, pointed out to me by my [00:08:45] professors, by my mentors that I’m really good at this. And when I went into practice, I [00:08:50] did see that this naturally came to me. Uh, it was something that came easy to me. Verses, [00:08:55] verses all the, all the other things. So I just started applying and I got [00:09:00] in and. Yeah, that’s that’s how special.

Payman Langroudi: That was.

Aditi Bhalla: Here. That was here. Yeah. At [00:09:05] schmul and, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Ambitious, ambitious person. You want to go [00:09:10] and now you want to go and specialise in the UK? Yeah. Did you consider America?

Aditi Bhalla: I [00:09:15] didn’t, because the plan was never to, you know, people who moved to America generally wanted. Yeah, they want to stay [00:09:20] there. Whereas my plan was never to stay. Stay in the UK or even.

Payman Langroudi: Why? Because you loved India so much. [00:09:25]

Aditi Bhalla: Well, no, because I wanted to go and live in Dubai with, you know, be around my family. [00:09:30] Yes. They were still settled there. Uh, and. Yeah. Working in Dubai.

Payman Langroudi: You met your husband. Your [00:09:35] current husband?

Aditi Bhalla: Yes. Yes, I met my husband and we decided to. He’s also from [00:09:40] India and he had already done all of his his exams and stuff.

Payman Langroudi: So specialist.

Aditi Bhalla: To. [00:09:45]

Payman Langroudi: Know No. No implant.

Aditi Bhalla: The implant guy. And, um. Yeah. So [00:09:50] I decided I’m gonna stay back, stay here, give my exams. So I did my [00:09:55] first, uh, Em pros, and then I did my. So I went [00:10:00] the other way. Other way.

Payman Langroudi: Combined and combined teaching and practice [00:10:05] and motherhood. Yes.

Aditi Bhalla: Yes. So I was lecturing for Schmuhl. I [00:10:10] was also lecturing for Health Education England, uh, teaching occlusion and toothwear and. [00:10:15] Yeah, and and motherhood and also.

Payman Langroudi: So did you hit this same. [00:10:20] Is this all it is? You know, that same empty feeling that we’re talking about our patients, [00:10:25] our particular dentists. Were you that person?

Aditi Bhalla: Yes, I definitely hit that.

Payman Langroudi: Talk [00:10:30] me through it. Like what was what was going through your like feeling. What were you feeling? [00:10:35] Is this all there is? What’s wrong with what there was? You were specialist. You’re [00:10:40] teaching husband, child. What was the thing that was missing?

Aditi Bhalla: It just from from [00:10:45] within. Internally.

Payman Langroudi: It just.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. It was just that feeling like the life [00:10:50] has to be something more. Like I’ve done everything that was asked of me. I’ve [00:10:55] achieved, achieved, achieved. Yeah. And you know, there’s this, this illusion of happiness. Like, [00:11:00] where is it? You know, where, like, I don’t see it. I’m hustling every day. I’m [00:11:05] working really hard. And this feels very hard. It feels very stressful. So where [00:11:10] is it? And I did have I did have an incident in 2018 where I [00:11:15] did break down in the surgery. It was just tears and I could not understand it. [00:11:20] And I upon reflection, yeah, it was just that feeling that that [00:11:25] I was lost as well. I had also reached a plateau and I also I needed help. [00:11:30] Um, so that’s that’s what I did. And this is why all [00:11:35] of the spiritual side, all of the other training came about because it was me, again, [00:11:40] the perfectionist in me. I wanted to learn it all. I wanted to know it all.

Payman Langroudi: Were you a spiritual [00:11:45] kind of person before all this or not?

Aditi Bhalla: Not at.

Payman Langroudi: All. So interesting.

Aditi Bhalla: Not at all.

Payman Langroudi: That’s so interesting, isn’t it?

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. [00:11:50] Not at all. But my mum is very spiritual. She always did. [00:11:55] She always talked about angels and just believing. And she would always do, like, [00:12:00] you know, a little bit of healing on her. She wouldn’t call it that. But, you know, it was always like, oh mum will mum [00:12:05] will heal it kind of a thing. So when, um, when I did feel low [00:12:10] when I went through that phase in 2018 and, and of course my first point of contact was go to [00:12:15] the GP, I’ve got to fix this. You know, my scientific brain saying there’s got to be a solution [00:12:20] where the solution was a prescription and I didn’t I didn’t want just that, [00:12:25] you know, I wanted I needed more. And so I said, right, I’m going to look at other things, which [00:12:30] I did. And it just started with a simple, uh, Reiki healing session. Um, [00:12:35] not very mainstream, but it was kind of like, I’m willing to try everything [00:12:40] right now because I want to feel better, I want to I want to look for this happiness. And [00:12:45] I started meditating. I started going back to my roots. We used to do yoga in school, so I [00:12:50] started connecting back with it and I started to get better, feel better. And [00:12:55] that’s where that’s what opened the doors to spirituality. Uh, I started.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve [00:13:00] got a family member, one of my family. Super brain, absolute super brain, but cleverest [00:13:05] guy I know. Yeah, of all the people I’ve met and the high achiever, [00:13:10] you know, he was one of these guys. He was on a he was on a plane. More than it’s legal for pilots [00:13:15] to be on a plane because it was just Monday in Frankfurt, Tuesday in Dubai, Wednesday in London like that. [00:13:20] Yeah. And then he got ill. Yeah. And he ended up in hospital for, I [00:13:25] don’t know, eight weeks or something. And then he quit his job and [00:13:30] he became super spiritual. And before that he was super scientific. He had a PhD [00:13:35] in mechanical engineering and all that super spiritual after that. The. And [00:13:40] it sounds like you went through a similar pathway.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. And to be honest, there’s so many [00:13:45] of us out there, you know, bankers, lawyers, all of them achieve done, done it all. And then suddenly [00:13:50] something takes in you just like, right, what is going on? You question. And [00:13:55] yes, that’s that’s exactly what happened with me.

Payman Langroudi: And so this toolkit that you kind of offer [00:14:00] your clients and that you’ve probably developed for yourself. Right. Is it is it something [00:14:05] along? I’ve told this story before. Um, I had one of those, uh, do you remember back [00:14:10] in the day to one a CD multi changer? Yes. Yeah, I had six CDs [00:14:15] in it. And one day something happened. It broke. And only those six CDs. I couldn’t take it out anymore. [00:14:20] It was only those six. And at the time I was driving all over the country for enlightened, [00:14:25] trying to see people. And so I only had these. So I listened to one of the six [00:14:30] was one CD of Anthony Robbins, Tony Robbins. Yeah, [00:14:35] that one I listened to maybe 100 times because I listened to everything. That’s all I [00:14:40] had. Yeah. And it was. It was the. It was the five questions you should ask yourself [00:14:45] when you’re in overwhelm. And that one lesson stuck [00:14:50] with me. The rest of the other 19 CDs. I don’t know what happened because I listened to that one. So. But is that what we’re [00:14:55] talking? Is that. Is that when you say toolkit? Yeah. If I’m in overwhelm, what do I do? [00:15:00]

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So is that it? Is that the kind of thing we’re talking.

Aditi Bhalla: Kind of thing? Yes. But it’s a [00:15:05] wary because of my varied, you know, training. Yeah. I think I’ve sort of like, combined [00:15:10] and like.

Payman Langroudi: Different.

Aditi Bhalla: Things. Yeah. Yeah. So it could be anything from like imagery or [00:15:15] breathing or questioning yourself, you know, different things for different situation. I don’t say [00:15:20] one size fits all. And even for me, in my own practice, I would say that, you know, when I feel [00:15:25] in, oh, well, not one thing will fit on all the days. It would be different things. So yeah, that’s that’s [00:15:30] kind of the thing I’m talking about and I’m really focussed on prevention. I really, [00:15:35] you know, I really believe that we’re so focussed on preventing oral disease for our patients, but we’ve not [00:15:40] considered prevention of burnout.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you’re making lots of good points here. Don’t wait till you’re on [00:15:45] the edge of, you know, brink of of your life before trying to address these things. Right.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. [00:15:50] Just, you know, there are ways we can prevent things. There are ways you, you know, things [00:15:55] we can put in place that that will not let you, that will let you enjoy the career that you [00:16:00] worked so hard for. You’ve studied so hard for. And you know you can keep going. It’s sustainable [00:16:05] growth. It’s sustainable success. That’s what you want to aim for.

Payman Langroudi: You know, in mental health in general, [00:16:10] right. There’s there’s lots of different sort of, I don’t know, niches. I guess it’s a bit like dentistry. [00:16:15] Right. You’ve got you’ve got ortho, you’ve got and one, one that seems to be [00:16:20] keep coming up. And I see it all over your content is this notion of like I’m not enough kind [00:16:25] of thing or, you know, be kinder to yourself kind of thing. Yeah. Which [00:16:30] is very important. Yeah. But I feel like I’ve got the opposite problem too. [00:16:35] Kind to myself and in a way, like, does that mean you’re not the right healer [00:16:40] for me? You know, like, it’s kind of an interesting thing. Is there another guy who’s, like, focussed on [00:16:45] my issues?

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. I mean, well, yes and no.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:16:50] the way I saw your content, it almost looks like it’s a pandemic of not being kind enough to yourself. [00:16:55] Yeah. And is it that a woman thing.

Aditi Bhalla: Or not being. Uh. [00:17:00]

Payman Langroudi: Well, because women are projecting perfection like too much.

Aditi Bhalla: I think [00:17:05] men men are just not, you know, you’re expected to come out of university, get a job, provide for your [00:17:10] families, and then you’re done. Whereas for a woman, it’s not just a modern woman, it’s not just the [00:17:15] career, but it’s also the home, the motherhood, you know, everything else. [00:17:20] You’ve got to be good at everything. And I think that does lead to a lot of.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [00:17:25] a there’s a background stress. And I guess you’re saying there’s like a cumulative stress that [00:17:30] you’re not really fully onto until it gets you.

Aditi Bhalla: And it gets to you.

Payman Langroudi: Because I [00:17:35] sit in a cafe and I see four women having coffee together, and they all look so happy [00:17:40] and perfect together. And and then four guys sitting there all sort of looking. [00:17:45] And I reflect on that question of like, what it is to be a woman. You have to look perfect. Yes. [00:17:50]

Aditi Bhalla: You’ve got to have everything perfect.

Payman Langroudi: Otherwise what? Otherwise you’re not a good woman like you. [00:17:55]

Aditi Bhalla: Otherwise you’re just people just have this fear of judgement. This fear of [00:18:00] I have somehow failed in life by not doing the things I was meant [00:18:05] to be doing, and I made, I made this really funny, funny thing where, you [00:18:10] know, as, as an Indian, you’re supposed to make rotis, you know, they’re meant to be round. Because if they’re not [00:18:15] round, they’re not you cannot eat them. It’s almost like they’re inedible.

Payman Langroudi: Is that.

Aditi Bhalla: Right? So [00:18:20] it’s like, why do I why do my rotis have to be round? Why can’t they be a map [00:18:25] shape? They’re still a roti. You’re still eating them. It’s they’re you know, they’re nutritious. So it’s about [00:18:30] basic things. It starts from a very young age that it’s got to be all in order. The bed sheets have [00:18:35] got to be, you know, all done. Everything has to be done in an orderly way. I don’t [00:18:40] remember seeing, you know, any man around me being taught similar things. So I think the messaging [00:18:45] starts very starts out very differently. Yeah. You’re right. Even when you’re growing up. [00:18:50] So I don’t know whether it’s it’s only a woman thing. I think men go through it a little bit as well. [00:18:55] It’s just that they’re not allowed to maybe not given permission enough to talk about it, to express [00:19:00] it. Um, and but I think women sort of are more, you [00:19:05] know, they’re more into their emotions. They talk, they like to talk about. And I think that’s where it comes across. Yeah. [00:19:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And then this happiness thing that you’re saying, um, there’s a lot of [00:19:15] confusion around happiness. Even myself, I think I was 45 before I worked out that [00:19:20] there’s a difference between happiness and pleasure. Yeah. You know, and now [00:19:25] I feel like happy. I’m not even chasing happiness anymore. Like I used to [00:19:30] think happiness was the thing, and I was chasing it through pleasure and joy. And now I feel like. [00:19:35] And some things presented to me, whether it’s anything a business or whatever, I [00:19:40] kind of start measuring it in peace terms, like, is this going to add [00:19:45] to peace or is it going to take away from peace? And sometimes it works in mysterious ways, right? Because [00:19:50] there’s a product I really want to do. And if I don’t do it, I’m not going to be at peace. [00:19:55] You know, like, think of it. And those are the only ones that I’m going to now look at. I’m not going [00:20:00] to look at anything else. Only the ones that that compelling. Yeah.

Aditi Bhalla: Because they’re kind of [00:20:05] bringing you joy on the journey because you’re looking from what I’m hearing is that you’re seeking joy in [00:20:10] your journey. And I feel like that’s what happiness is all about. It’s not an end destination. [00:20:15] It’s not what you’re going to get to. It’s what you’re going to receive while you’re on this journey [00:20:20] of life. You know, even when you’re doing dentistry, you’re not going to find happiness in that piece of paper [00:20:25] you get at the end of five years. It’s everything that you’ve done in those five years. But this is not [00:20:30] something that’s talked about mainstream. So I think what you’re talking exactly.

Payman Langroudi: And is [00:20:35] are you linking somehow the compassion you have for your patient with the compassion you have for yourself and your [00:20:40] team?

Aditi Bhalla: Yes, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Because the type of person we’re good with patients, but [00:20:45] we don’t extend that to ourselves and our teams.

Aditi Bhalla: No, we don’t even talk about it. Forget extending [00:20:50] it. We’re only about patient care. Patient care, patient care. You’re just pouring out, out, out. [00:20:55] But what’s going to happen is you’re going to you’re going to, you know, be left with this empty cup. You’re [00:21:00] going to feel depleted because there’s only so much you can put out. You’ve got to fill in your own cup [00:21:05] as well. And, you know, once you do that, of course patient care is going to get better. Of course, working [00:21:10] with your staff is going to feel amazing because you’ve taken taken that [00:21:15] time to fill your own cup. You know, simple example when we go [00:21:20] on a flight, what do they say? Put on your own mask first. It’s kind of like that. Yeah, you’ve got to. [00:21:25] Also, it’s not selfish. And we’re taught that it’s a bit selfish taking time out for yourself. You [00:21:30] feel all of the shame, the guilt. But it’s not. You’ve got to take care of your own self [00:21:35] first before you can actually care for your patients, for your for your team, for your family members. [00:21:40] And it’s absolutely essential. And in when I talk about compassion, [00:21:45] it flows in three ways. We’re so good. You know, in giving compassion to others. [00:21:50] We’re not good at receiving it from others because we get a bit like, ooh, you know, you know, [00:21:55] our body sort of the mood. It’s like, whoa, whoa, what just happened? Yeah. Uh, [00:22:00] and our our compassion to ourselves that is non-existent. It’s not talked about. It’s [00:22:05] not taught to us. It’s almost. Yeah, a selfish notion. So that [00:22:10] that’s that’s the kind of compassion I’m talking about, that it flows in all three ways.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:22:15] you’re saying it’s similar skills. The skills we have already just need to apply it to ourselves. [00:22:20] Yes. It’s interesting. It’s very interesting idea. Yeah. So how about the team? [00:22:25] Give me an example of that.

Aditi Bhalla: How it would flow to your flow to your team.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:22:30] one of my bugbears. Yeah, that dentistry’s gotten a lot better for patients [00:22:35] over the years. Like I stopped practising 2012, but you [00:22:40] know, from 1995 till 2025, these this 30 [00:22:45] years. Yeah. Then she’s gotten really good for the patient, you know, painless scanners. [00:22:50] Everything’s beautiful. Clean coffee, all of that. Um, it’s [00:22:55] gotten pretty decently well for dentists as well. Yeah. You know, cosmetic [00:23:00] dentistry wants dentistry. Instagram. What that’s [00:23:05] done to dentistry. It’s not every every part of life hasn’t gone up in the same way. Visual [00:23:10] stuff like food and dentistry and art and dancing, those things have really taken. So. But [00:23:15] for the for the team hasn’t really changed in 30 [00:23:20] years. And dental practices tend to be hierarchical Cool institutions. [00:23:25] Yeah. And I’ve worked in some practices where, [00:23:30] you know, there’s two distinct teams going on. You know, it’s her and her fans [00:23:35] and and you know, the it can be working in a practice can be [00:23:40] super tough. Nurses for me the the most important people [00:23:45] in the practice and yet the least in the hierarchy, the lowest in the hierarchy. [00:23:50] Yeah. Give me some practice management team issues where this sort [00:23:55] of thinking relates.

Aditi Bhalla: I think the first thing to really [00:24:00] highlight is, you know, that we’re all human beings. We’ve got to come, you know, you’ve got to just [00:24:05] I absolutely dislike this hierarchy. Yeah. Because when I worked with my [00:24:10] nurse and I saw her as a human being, saw her problems as my problems, and I could address [00:24:15] them. There’s an equality. And then things flow really well. Yeah. And it’s it almost [00:24:20] comes down to not everything is business. Yes. Business is really important, but it [00:24:25] can’t work without people. So if you can’t, you know, bring in that humanness. If you cannot [00:24:30] bring in that, that that basic level of love and respect, you know, that mutuality [00:24:35] between your team members, there’s going to be friction, there’s going to [00:24:40] be resentment, and everyone’s going to feel guilty. Everyone’s going [00:24:45] to feel the shame and the perfectionism. It just keeps going on because you’re expecting everyone to operate [00:24:50] at a machine level. Well guess what? We’re not machines. We’re humans. We come with a backstory. [00:24:55] We come with, we come with no manual. So every day is going to be [00:25:00] different. And it’s all about coming down to that basic level of understanding. [00:25:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And look, so two humans are in a room working together. Yeah. [00:25:10] There’s a hierarchy. To the extent that there are some things that this human can ask [00:25:15] for, but there are some things that a nurse can say to you that you’re going to have to do as the dentist. [00:25:20] Many things. Yeah, many, many things. And so the idea [00:25:25] that I tell you what to do is demeaning, [00:25:30] number one. But but number two, you know, we know dentists commit suicide more than [00:25:35] many other professions, take their own lives, more than many other professions. And [00:25:40] me and Ryan had been looking at that and saying, why? Why? And you can say stuff like GDC and all [00:25:45] that. Yeah, but it’s been going on for 100 years. Yeah, yeah, 100 years ago, dentists were killing themselves [00:25:50] more than other professionals as well. Yeah. So what is it? So we [00:25:55] know it’s stressful when the patient’s stressed. We know all that. But one thing that I’ve thought all [00:26:00] the time is, as a dentist, you’re in this room with this nurse. Yeah. If relations between [00:26:05] you and the nurse are. Yeah. That’s. Yeah. That’s your whole life. [00:26:10]

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Gone sour. Yeah. Your working life is sour now. Yeah. Doesn’t matter what happened [00:26:15] with the patient. You’ve got this and that can really get to someone can.

Aditi Bhalla: Affect you so much. And it’s [00:26:20] also putting on that, having to put on that mask every single day, having to be this [00:26:25] dentist persona.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. On show, on show.

Aditi Bhalla: Even when you are [00:26:30] outside, whether whether you’re a parent attending a, you know, your child’s school, you’re still the dentist, [00:26:35] you’re always having to wear this mask even when you know, for example, when I go back to India, [00:26:40] I actually anyone new, I don’t tell them what I do for a living because you’re like, well, oh, dentist, you [00:26:45] know, there’s suddenly this persona created about you and that’s what you’ve got to live up to. There’s so much pressure. [00:26:50] And as you said rightly, like, I feel like working with a nurse or even [00:26:55] with it’s like a marriage. Yeah. If it’s not working, if it’s toxic, you know, basically [00:27:00] you’re going to have the stress, you’re going to feel it. And you do spend a lot more time with your nurse [00:27:05] than you do with your with your partner, your husband, your wife. So it’s just so important to make, [00:27:10] you know, make take time and make that effort to have a good relationship with them [00:27:15] and just treat them. Just treat them how you want to be treated. Do you do you need their help? Well, [00:27:20] they need their help too. If you know if you’re running late, get up. Just help tidy up. It’s [00:27:25] not going to take a lot. They might do the same for you. They might, you know, type some notes. [00:27:30] They might support you in some way in the future. It’s not it’s I’m not saying it’s a give and take, but also [00:27:35] the give and take just automatically happens once you come at the same level. [00:27:40]

Payman Langroudi: I was so surprised that the nurses used to say to me that [00:27:45] not every dentist says thank you at the end. At the end of the day.

Aditi Bhalla: I find that surprising.

Payman Langroudi: End of the day. [00:27:50] Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, I find that really surprising. Crazy, [00:27:55] man.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Crazy. I’m really surprised about that. Really surprised. Maybe. Maybe that was back then. Maybe now things are a bit [00:28:00] more.

Aditi Bhalla: No, I feel now it’s the older nurses complain that the the [00:28:05] newer dentists are even, you know, they’re living a very different, different life. [00:28:10] They’re living a very uh, they come in and they just want to do the dentistry and leave, whereas [00:28:15] it’s all about the team. I think dentistry is team work. Yeah, you’ve got to involve your [00:28:20] team. You’ve got to meet them where they’re at and work as a team. Otherwise it’s not going to work for you. [00:28:25]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s go through some of the tools. Sure. So meditation. Let’s start with meditation. [00:28:30] In my limited knowledge of meditation, I’ll tell you what I’ve done in meditation. [00:28:35] Yeah, I’ve done a few guided meditations off my phone. Yeah. Where I felt like [00:28:40] I was meditating. Was in a in a tank. Do you know about those? A sensory deprivation [00:28:45] tank? Yeah. It’s basically, it’s completely dark. The water’s at body temperature. It’s salty. So you float [00:28:50] around in that tank. That one hour. And what did I get from it? [00:28:55] The notion that I am different to my body [00:29:00] and you know, my circumstance. There is an I outside of the [00:29:05] everyday. And the person breathing. That person. Yeah.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. [00:29:10] It gave you that space to just be. Yeah. That’s what it sounds like. You just not have any [00:29:15] Responsibilities in that moment or any to do lists. It was just.

Payman Langroudi: And, [00:29:20] you know, in the tank. Yeah. Because all the reason I keep pointing to the tank is, is because [00:29:25] I’m sure someone who’s a proper meditator, who’s done it properly and studied it, gets to this state. I didn’t [00:29:30] know if I was upside down this way, around that way around it just just just just being. Yeah, [00:29:35] yeah. And why is it that that gives you space? Because [00:29:40] we don’t we’re not aware of that day to day. Is that right?

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. Because we’re [00:29:45] so connected to everything. Look at how many notifications that pop up on your screen.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I sleep with headphones [00:29:50] on.

Aditi Bhalla: You do?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Aditi Bhalla: So, you know, you’re connected and everyone [00:29:55] is just non-stop on the go. Just connected. Connected, connected. It’s too much connection [00:30:00] we don’t need we need a bit of isolation as well. We need a bit of connection with [00:30:05] ourselves. We’re connected outside, but we’re not connected.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve never got myself to this [00:30:10] level. But people who do do it well, they say, oh, then the problem comes along and you put the problem [00:30:15] in its place.

Aditi Bhalla: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: You see it? Yeah. You see what it is, and [00:30:20] you push it to its place. Is that. Is that correct? Is that what meditation does eventually? Because I haven’t [00:30:25] got that. Well.

Aditi Bhalla: Well that’s that’s that I would say that’s the pro level.

Payman Langroudi: Oh [00:30:30] really? Okay.

Aditi Bhalla: At the beginner level, you know, everyone says, oh, meditation [00:30:35] is all about emptying your mind, your thoughts. Uh, well, that’s not what it’s about. The [00:30:40] thoughts are going to come because that’s how your brains have developed. It’s all about observing [00:30:45] them. It’s it’s not about action, just observation. So if [00:30:50] suppose a thought comes. Uh oh. I’ve got to go to Tesco to buy milk. Okay, [00:30:55] but don’t now when you’re meditating, start to plan that. Oh, let me do [00:31:00] this at 3 p.m. tomorrow after work, because then you’ve disconnected with the whole [00:31:05] point of the exercise. So it’s about being here right now. Whatever [00:31:10] thoughts coming, whatever feelings are coming, whatever emotion. Just being. That’s. That’s all it’s all about. [00:31:15]

Payman Langroudi: And the living in the moment kind of power of now kind of stuff too, [00:31:20] right.

Aditi Bhalla: Power of now. And I think the reason we say that use your five senses because it gives people [00:31:25] something tangible that. Right. Okay. Now but what do I do in the now because we’re so used to doing. [00:31:30]

Payman Langroudi: Like feel the flow, feel the seat, the way of connecting to now.

Aditi Bhalla: Yes, yes. So how [00:31:35] do how do I do this. So just to make it more tangible, use your five senses. [00:31:40] You know, you know, as you said, you feel the feet, feel your chair, sense [00:31:45] the smells around you, connect to your breath.

Payman Langroudi: And so if I do want to get into [00:31:50] it, I don’t want to if I wanted to get into meditation, what should I do?

Aditi Bhalla: Well, as [00:31:55] you said, you already kind of doing it. You pick up the phone. Yeah, you can pick up. There are so many guided [00:32:00] meditations out there. Uh, you can pick up anyone. But the easiest meditation [00:32:05] to do for a beginner level is do a body scan. Yeah, you don’t even need to listen [00:32:10] to anything if you can just switch off your phone and just start to observe the feelings [00:32:15] that you’re having in every part of your body. So start from your toe moving systematically [00:32:20] upwards all to your head, and that should get you in that state of meditation. So [00:32:25] that’s the easiest way. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Breathwork. We’ve had a breathwork coach on, on the other [00:32:30] podcast, and I found it very interesting that the exercises were lovely, [00:32:35] lovely, all I can. The best way I can describe it just felt great. Yeah. Tell [00:32:40] me more. Anything else about breathwork? I mean, is it why? When do I do breathwork? Is it a daily practice? [00:32:45] Is it something you do only when you’re in a situation? Or what do you do about what? Tell me about breathwork. [00:32:50]

Aditi Bhalla: So breathwork again nothing. Nothing complex. I like to make things very simple [00:32:55] and very like I want to get to it right now. You can do it anywhere and obviously [00:33:00] doing it once a day is amazing. But I don’t like to put structures in place. So [00:33:05] if you have time in the morning, do it in the morning. But certain practices practices are better in the morning, so did not [00:33:10] better in the evening. So you pick the time because it’s your practice. You can. [00:33:15] There are breathwork practices that you can do during the day as well. So say suppose [00:33:20] during the day you’re having a really stressful morning. You’re running late. The easiest breathwork [00:33:25] the easiest one is just see where you are breathing. Put one hand on your chest, one [00:33:30] on your belly and just see where you’re breathing. Because if you’re breathing in your chest, you’re kind of acting from a fight or flight [00:33:35] mode and your nervous system is dysregulated and you want to regulate it, breathe in [00:33:40] your belly. If you see an animal or your baby sleeping, where are they breathing? They’re [00:33:45] breathing in their bellies. When they’re breathing in their bellies, they’re very relaxed. And that’s where you want to [00:33:50] be working from as well. So the quickest one, just see where you’re breathing. Just check in on yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:33:55] But go on, give us 1 or 2, the next one. What’s the breathing [00:34:00] exercise? That makes sense.

Aditi Bhalla: Uh, after that, I would then do five nostril. [00:34:05] Uh, so I would close one nostril and then do five breaths in and out. From [00:34:10] my sources, I block my right nostril. I would do five breaths in and out from my left one, and I [00:34:15] would then block my left nostril and do the same from the right nostril. Breathe [00:34:20] in five. Breathe in.

Payman Langroudi: Breathe out.

Aditi Bhalla: Five times. Yeah, let’s do it.

Payman Langroudi: Is it a guided thing? [00:34:25] Is it? Does it help to be? It does, doesn’t it? It helps to be guided.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, it helps, but it doesn’t have [00:34:30] as I’ve explained, it doesn’t have to be guided. But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s do one. Let’s do one with [00:34:35] that one or any other one you want. Yeah. Okay.

Aditi Bhalla: So do you want to first check in with your breath.

Payman Langroudi: Where you’re at? I [00:34:40] was good with that.

Aditi Bhalla: I was are you in your belly. You’re nice and relaxed okay. Right. Okay. So let’s let’s [00:34:45] take our thumbs and let’s just close our eyes.

Payman Langroudi: Close one.

Aditi Bhalla: Nostril. Yeah. And let’s just. Yeah. Go [00:34:50] in.

Payman Langroudi: Eyes closed.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. Eyes closed. And deep breath in your nose. [00:34:55] Right into your belly and out. And [00:35:00] same again. We’re going to do this five times a second time. Breathing [00:35:05] out. Breathing [00:35:10] in again. Breathing [00:35:15] out. Breathing in again. Breathing [00:35:20] out. And [00:35:25] one last time.

Aditi Bhalla: Breathing in. Breathing [00:35:30] out. And now. Gently. Just closing the other nostril [00:35:35] and relieving.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll do that. The listeners gonna go berserk. But [00:35:40] isn’t it so interesting just breathing, man. Yeah, just. Just breathing. [00:35:45] Yeah. What’s the story with the not so just somehow.

Aditi Bhalla: So it balances the flow.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, I [00:35:50] got one side working the other side.

Aditi Bhalla: Well, that’s the idea. You want to balance the flow on both sides. [00:35:55]

Payman Langroudi: So let’s imagine if I’m super stressed. Should I be doing two breaths in, one breath out or [00:36:00] the other way around if I’m super down on energy? How do I get up? Energy? Do I do two bets [00:36:05] in one. Something. Is there a technique.

Aditi Bhalla: For not just the breath? I think when you’re super stressed. My my easiest [00:36:10] way to come back to the here and now is literally shake your body. Literally shake it out [00:36:15] because you want to come back into your. Yeah, literally just shake, shake your hands. Shake your [00:36:20] legs, literally just shake it out.

Payman Langroudi: That brings me back.

Aditi Bhalla: To brings you back into your body. Because [00:36:25] when you’re stressed out, you’re disconnected. Your brain’s function is just to keep you safe, keep [00:36:30] your organs running. You want to come back in the here and now. And so for me, the [00:36:35] bodywork comes even before the breathwork. You want to first connect to your body. So [00:36:40] yeah, the easiest one. Just shake your body out and then check in with your breath.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:36:45] then what’s did I read ERP. Sorry ERP or something. [00:36:50] Something else. Did I get that wrong?

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What else? What else?

Aditi Bhalla: Fda.

Payman Langroudi: Fda FDA. [00:36:55] Yes.

Aditi Bhalla: Okay. So that’s tapping.

Payman Langroudi: Tapping.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, it’s called tapping. Uh, it’s based [00:37:00] on acupuncture. Yeah. Uh, so you’ve got these meridians. So in Chinese medicine [00:37:05] you’ve got these meridians. Energy. Energy. Yeah. Energy centres running. So like in, in in Hinduism [00:37:10] we’ve got chakras. Yeah. Whereas in Chinese we’ve got these meridians.

Payman Langroudi: And at the same place.

Aditi Bhalla: Uh, [00:37:15] slightly, slightly slightly. Yes. Uh, so when, [00:37:20] when the energy lines cross, they create something called as powerful energy centres. Those are your [00:37:25] acupuncture points. That’s when you go to see an acupuncturist. That’s where they inject [00:37:30] the needles. Whereas with tapping you can press on those points and [00:37:35] helps you relieve stress. And it’s known to work it yourself. [00:37:40] Yeah, you can do it for yourself. Once you learn the sequence you have, it’s the same sequence, same points, [00:37:45] but you say different words, uh, and by speaking and by tapping on [00:37:50] those points, it takes down your stress, takes down your anxiety. So yeah, that’s [00:37:55] that’s one technique as well.

Payman Langroudi: I saw crystal something about crystals.

Aditi Bhalla: Crystals.

Payman Langroudi: Talk [00:38:00] about that because I went I went to an Airbnb once in in, uh, Arizona. [00:38:05] Yeah. And it was Sedona. Do you know about Sedona is, like, very, like spiritual place? Yeah. And this Airbnb [00:38:10] had crystals everywhere, man. Like some giant ones. Little ones. Yeah. You [00:38:15] really believe that story, or is it? Do you think that’s more a [00:38:20] placebo story? Or. It doesn’t matter if. As long as it helps.

Aditi Bhalla: Well, crystals can do whatever [00:38:25] your body can do. Yeah. They don’t they don’t have super powers. They’re not going to suddenly give you [00:38:30] powers to fly or to, you know, whatever your body can do. They can enhance. Look, [00:38:35] they’re coming from. I do believe in them. They’re coming from Earth. Yeah. They’re bringing in. [00:38:40]

Payman Langroudi: Some energy.

Aditi Bhalla: Of some energies. Yeah, they can work with your own because you you as [00:38:45] a person are energy as well.

Payman Langroudi: What does that mean, man? I’ve heard that said [00:38:50] so many times. Is it to do what these energy centres that you’re talking about? Yeah. Okay. Is that what you mean by I [00:38:55] am energy for everything. I don’t get it. I don’t get that one. What does that mean?

Aditi Bhalla: For a very scientific [00:39:00] person. Let’s, let’s let’s break this down. When you walk into a room, you [00:39:05] when you’re around certain people, you would feel really happy. Yeah, right. Or sometimes you would [00:39:10] feel, oh, I don’t want to be in that situation. I don’t don’t want to be around that person. So what [00:39:15] is that? That’s energy. That’s energy. That’s their energy. Yeah, we all carry [00:39:20] it and we all have good energy and bad energy. And it’s, [00:39:25] you know, give given what our emotions are, what the situation is going on, we could be exuding that energy. [00:39:30] So that’s what I mean by that. Does that make sense now.

Payman Langroudi: It does make sense. It does [00:39:35] make sense. You seem to be very like very quickly, easily [00:39:40] able to answer these questions. Right.

Aditi Bhalla: It’s because I’ve been asked them [00:39:45] so many times, especially especially about the crystals, because, well, if you came [00:39:50] to my house, you would see them everywhere. Oh, really? My son now collects random stones from, [00:39:55] you know, anywhere, and everyone calls them magic stone. So it’s something I talk about very [00:40:00] openly. I used to kind of not, uh, but yeah, there would be in my water. There [00:40:05] would be under my pillow. There are really around me. Um.

Payman Langroudi: You know, [00:40:10] you know, like when you’re a dentist, you kind of need to know when to refer.

Aditi Bhalla: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:40:15] does that apply to your work? Is there a time where you think I got to refer this person?

Aditi Bhalla: Absolutely. [00:40:20]

Payman Langroudi: What? A psychiatrist or whatever it is.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So how do you know that [00:40:25] when?

Aditi Bhalla: When there’s. Because I can’t prescribe any medication when I know for certain situations you might need some [00:40:30] medication you would refer, or sometimes they need group work, or they need family work [00:40:35] or they need I feel like there’s a type of therapy they might really, you know, get. Yeah. [00:40:40] Benefit from then I would, I would refer and I’ve got that network in place already. Uh, I [00:40:45] work from a therapy centre near where I live, and we’ve got all sorts of specialists [00:40:50] there. So we kind of refer internally to each other. Yeah, that. [00:40:55] Oh, I’ve got this client I think they would really benefit working from you.

Payman Langroudi: Why does group work [00:41:00] help some people? What situations does group work good for? I think addiction sort of stuff. [00:41:05]

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. Yeah. But I think group work is good in all sort of situations because it brings you again to [00:41:10] that human level because, you know, evolutionary, we were never meant to live alone. We [00:41:15] always thrived in smaller communities. So I think group [00:41:20] work really brings that sense of community, that sense of that. I am not isolated in this problem. [00:41:25] I’ve got other people and it can be quite therapeutic knowing that there are others [00:41:30] with me struggling.

Payman Langroudi: In this area of people not forgiving [00:41:35] themselves and not not being kinder to themselves. So have [00:41:40] you. The unlock for that person tends to be different for each person, [00:41:45] I’m sure. Right. Yeah, but give me some stories. Like like what happens? [00:41:50] Does that person end up being this other person then? Do they end up being less organised and [00:41:55] less achieving and less ambitious.

Aditi Bhalla: If they forgive.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Because, you know, [00:42:00] it’s like, you know, your biggest strength is your biggest weakness. Yeah. That idea. Yeah. You know, that’s something [00:42:05] that’s driving them so hard in the end. There’s, there’s, you know, it’s also burning them [00:42:10] out. Yeah. So but is there an opposite effect like okay, you end up being kinder to yourself, [00:42:15] but now you’re not so driven. Does that ever happen?

Aditi Bhalla: That is one of the biggest [00:42:20] fears.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what people fear, don’t they?

Aditi Bhalla: That is one of the biggest fears that comes up when we talk about compassion, [00:42:25] because you think that that’s going to make you weak. It’s going to make you all [00:42:30] wishy washy and, you know, not motivated at all. Yeah, but that’s not the truth. [00:42:35] Um, having being a compassionate person, you’ve got to have three elements to yourself. You’ve [00:42:40] got to have the courage to understand that there is an issue, there’s a problem. You’ve [00:42:45] got to have the wisdom, the awareness that, okay, this is going on. Um, [00:42:50] and then you’ve got to have this caring commitment that I want to resolve it. Yeah. [00:42:55] So, for example, when we think about compassionate leaders in the world, if we talked about Mother [00:43:00] Teresa, you wouldn’t say she is weak, unmotivated. [00:43:05] Was she was she? If we took the examples of example of a firefighter, they’re [00:43:10] compassionate. You know, they jump into the fire for somebody. And what does it take? [00:43:15] It takes wisdom, obviously, to understand the fire, to understand where the water is going to come. [00:43:20] It takes courage and it takes commitment to resolve that problem. And that’s why compassion [00:43:25] is so hard. But with practice, it can make you this motivated, [00:43:30] driven person. So I think that is one of the biggest fears that.

Payman Langroudi: I like, that I like that that [00:43:35] compassion is compatible with all these things.

Aditi Bhalla: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: But I think for [00:43:40] me, you know, the question I was talking before about peace and contentment and contentment, [00:43:45] especially in our part of the world, it’s almost seen as a weakness, whereas [00:43:50] really it should be the thing that you’re after the most. I’m content, I am content. [00:43:55] Yeah. And the interesting notion of why does contentment [00:44:00] have to be on the same string as ambition? Yeah. Like why? Why [00:44:05] is it if I’m content? I can’t be ambitious? If I’m ambitious, I can’t be content? Is it possible to sort of square [00:44:10] that circle?

Aditi Bhalla: Exactly. It just blows my mind away.

Payman Langroudi: But. But I really feel that way. I feel that [00:44:15] way. So how do I get over that?

Aditi Bhalla: How do you get over your contentment? [00:44:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What? I’m after contentment, for sure. Yeah. And yet a part of me is saying, once you’re content, [00:44:25] you haven’t got your ambitions gone. And by the way, by the way, ambition [00:44:30] can be gone. Doesn’t like ambitions. A young man’s sport. You know what? [00:44:35] What are your thoughts around that?

Aditi Bhalla: I think they can co-exist. Just like [00:44:40] lots of other things.

Payman Langroudi: How do I unlock the link between them? You know, like, I would love for them to co-exist, but [00:44:45] it feels like it’s a zero sum game. If you’re if you’re more content, you’re less ambitious. If you’re more ambitious, you’re less [00:44:50] content.

Aditi Bhalla: So I’ll give you my example. I feel very content with life right now, but that doesn’t [00:44:55] mean that I’m not ambitious. I’m equally very driven, very ambitious. I think.

Payman Langroudi: How did you how did [00:45:00] you unlock those two?

Aditi Bhalla: I think that the key to unlocking it is to ask your [00:45:05] why. Why? For the ambition that you’re going for and why? For the contentment as well. Why [00:45:10] do I feel content right now? I feel content because I have been doing things that I wanted that [00:45:15] that I have set out. But I feel ambitious because there’s still more I want to do. There’s still more I want [00:45:20] to achieve. And this contentment is actually driving my ambition [00:45:25] because I’m no longer working from fear. Yeah, I’m no longer working in fear that, oh [00:45:30] my God, I haven’t achieved, I haven’t done, I’ve achieved, I’ve done, you know, [00:45:35] and it comes with a lot of self-compassion that, okay, it’s been hard. I’ve done this, but [00:45:40] also I still want to do more. So I think the key to unlocking, again, I would say [00:45:45] self-compassion and saying, right, let this contentment be my fuel for [00:45:50] ambition.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting.

Aditi Bhalla: Let it not be.

Payman Langroudi: I like how simple. You keep everything. [00:45:55]

Aditi Bhalla: Life is hard. Life is hard as it is. We’ve been dealt [00:46:00] with things that we’ve got to deal with. So, you know we can’t make the tools [00:46:05] for our help. Self-help difficult. We’ve got to make it easy, simple, [00:46:10] accessible and sustainable. Otherwise, we’re not going to do it. We’re just going to be.

Payman Langroudi: You do? You do [00:46:15] look.

Payman Langroudi: Happy right now. Yeah, but I’m sure there was very dark days when [00:46:20] your wrist started giving out. Yeah. Tell me about that. Tell me.

Aditi Bhalla: I woke [00:46:25] up one morning and my thumb was numb. I couldn’t feel.

Payman Langroudi: The blue.

Aditi Bhalla: Out of the [00:46:30] blue. Just woke up. I’m sure I ignored the pain for a little while. And, like. Like you do, uh. [00:46:35] And I woke up, and I was just. It was numb, and I. I really freaked out. [00:46:40] Uh, luckily, I have a very good, uh, orthopaedic friend. I gave him [00:46:45] a call, and I said, look, my thumb is numb, I cannot work. And I need [00:46:50] your help. I need you to see me today. Uh. And he did. And we had [00:46:55] some, you know, MRIs and scans. And then I was diagnosed with dequervain’s. Tenosynovitis, [00:47:00] um, and which is, which is basically your, um, [00:47:05] it’s your it’s not, it’s it’s it’s a tendon disease. It’s not [00:47:10] a tenosynovitis. It’s basically a tendon disease. It gets inflamed and it presses [00:47:15] against the nerves. And that’s where you get numbness and less mobility. And it [00:47:20] mainly happens when new mothers. But I didn’t have I didn’t have a baby at the time. [00:47:25] So it was because of repetitive movements.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really? Yeah, really. Dentistry was the.

Aditi Bhalla: Cause. [00:47:30] Was the dentistry. Yeah. But also stress. Yeah, that aggravated the whole thing because your [00:47:35] body has a way of speaking.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Aditi Bhalla: That’s right. And yeah. So it was repetitive movements [00:47:40] that caused it.

Payman Langroudi: How hard were you.

Payman Langroudi: Working as a dentist at that point?

Aditi Bhalla: I was working six days a week at [00:47:45] the time. I was, yeah, working long hours. And also I was driving all the [00:47:50] way. I was working in different practices. I was working in deal, I was working in Essex, and [00:47:55] then I was also lecturing at the time. So I was all over. I was literally I was hustling.

Payman Langroudi: And a [00:48:00] kid.

Aditi Bhalla: Well, the kid came after and then I had my second flare up of Dequervain’s, [00:48:05] and that’s when surgery was the only option I had. And I didn’t want to necessarily [00:48:10] go for it because of the recovery and the risks. Um, and that’s when [00:48:15] I decided to pause.

Payman Langroudi: And are they confident that pausing will [00:48:20] mean it’ll be okay again?

Aditi Bhalla: I feel I feel very good now. The pain has sort of gone [00:48:25] away. It’s not to say that it wouldn’t come back, but I’ve just got to manage it mindfully. [00:48:30] So if I do choose to go back, uh, it’ll have to be part time and I’ll have [00:48:35] to sort of just keep an eye on things. Uh, yeah. That’s that’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Only I found. [00:48:40] Only when I stopped practising did I really identify what I loved about [00:48:45] being a dentist. Yeah. So now that you’ve stopped. Yeah. What’s the thing [00:48:50] that you used to love about being a dentist?

Aditi Bhalla: Talking to my [00:48:55] older patients. Because I used to love doing dentures. They were my absolute favourite. [00:49:00] And the stories they had to tell you. You know, if you just took out a little bit of your [00:49:05] time just to speak to them, it’s that connection. Yeah. I used to love that. I used to absolutely [00:49:10] love that. Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How interesting. But as, like, as a specialist, [00:49:15] you didn’t even, like, say something clinical? No. That [00:49:20] was the same, by the way. The conversations. The conversations? Definitely.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, the conversations for sure. [00:49:25] Yeah. And. Yeah. Do. Yeah. Doing dentures, which nobody likes to do. I used to love doing [00:49:30] dentures. Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s funny because dentists teach you a lot about [00:49:35] occlusion even. Yeah. Let alone we used to have one guy, uh, professor who was an older [00:49:40] guy. Yeah. I’m sure he’s not with us anymore, but he used to say, you can’t [00:49:45] have attention is too tight. Yeah, like a full denture. Yeah. Yeah, like too tight. It’s a ridiculous [00:49:50] thing for a patient to say. It’s too tight. Yeah. And so I used to be [00:49:55] his housemate, his junior. And if a patient ever said that he would take the denture, I said, no [00:50:00] problem. I’m going to stretch the denture for you. And he’d say, come on, let’s go. And we’d go into his office and we’d just stand there [00:50:05] for 45 seconds. Yeah. And then come back and he’d stick it back [00:50:10] in the patient’s mouth. Oh, that’s much better. Much better.

Aditi Bhalla: You know, older [00:50:15] people are like babies. They’re literally like kids. And you’ve just got to, you know, deal with [00:50:20] them a little bit of give them a bit of TLC. But yeah, I used to love working with the older people [00:50:25] and the stories they had to tell, the wisdom that they brought. Definitely. Yeah. [00:50:30]

Payman Langroudi: What’s your view on placebo? You know, in all this work that you’re doing, do you [00:50:35] account for placebo? Do you think do you think it’s a bigger thing than you thought before [00:50:40] or, you know, like, almost like just now. You told me to cover one nostril and breathe. [00:50:45] Yeah. And I felt better, I felt better. I just breathe, that’s all I did. Yeah, well, tell me about [00:50:50] placebo. What? What do you think about it?

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, I think I think there is always an element [00:50:55] of placebo. Uh, there’s there’s been studies.

Payman Langroudi: There’s it somewhat like, you know, is [00:51:00] that part of what you’re doing?

Aditi Bhalla: Uh, I think the willingness of [00:51:05] wanting to do something about your problem is more where I, you know, where I sort of [00:51:10] offer support with the placebo. Sort of comes in, comes in on its own. It’s not something [00:51:15] I would say, oh, I am doing this for the placebo effect, but I do believe in it. I think it [00:51:20] it exists. There’s numerous studies and books written about it. Uh, if [00:51:25] you think it, you can heal it. You know, it does work. It does. It’s [00:51:30] not to say that that’s the work that I am doing. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What was your darkest [00:51:35] day? Was it around the illness?

Aditi Bhalla: It was definitely around the illness when, uh, the [00:51:40] my second round of sorry when my second round of the injections [00:51:45] didn’t work and I was just told that, well, there is no other option, you’re [00:51:50] just going to have to have surgery. I think that was a really dark day because I thought [00:51:55] that I’ve done so much training. I’ve done so much study.

Payman Langroudi: This nightmare, isn’t it? Every dentist has [00:52:00] that little thing in the back of their head. What if something happens to my hands, my arm, I can’t [00:52:05] work. Yeah.

Aditi Bhalla: So it it kind of broke me. But [00:52:10] then I was also reminded very lovingly by my husband that I’ve got so many other skills that I could put [00:52:15] to use.

Payman Langroudi: And by the way, did you have insurance of some sort?

Aditi Bhalla: I didn’t, I was I [00:52:20] was not smart enough at the time. Uh, however, my husband now has some [00:52:25] because obviously we’ve experienced it, but I wish I did, and that’s something I [00:52:30] do recommend. Uh, everybody, um, I didn’t have any insurance. [00:52:35] Uh, and I think another dark time would be along along with the Deco rings. Flare [00:52:40] up was I had hyperemesis when I was pregnant and that was just so hard. [00:52:45] It was almost like my wrists were giving up. My body was failing me. Almost. [00:52:50] Yeah, it really took me to a dark place.

Payman Langroudi: As a young person, it’s difficult, you know, it’s a difficult thing. [00:52:55] What about kids? I mean, kids, I find, you know, you know, one [00:53:00] of the biggest problems, one of the biggest issues that you’re having to treat, basically, is people who [00:53:05] want it all. And I don’t know, how do you feel around that? Because [00:53:10] for me, wanting it all is a bit selfish, a bit a bit much. Yeah. Insomuch as it [00:53:15] depends what all is. Right. Yeah. But when, when kids come along, they, [00:53:20] they, they start wanting it all and, and I think it comes down to this [00:53:25] notion of something’s got to give. Right. And what is the thing that gives [00:53:30] when I ask. And it’s mothers. It’s mothers. Yeah. Because they’re trying to do their kids, do [00:53:35] their careers. Do their husbands. Do you know. Yeah. What is it that gives most [00:53:40] of them say my own health. Mhm. Sometimes the relationship. Yeah. [00:53:45] Because the kind of people they are that are going to the kids not going to give works, not going to give. [00:53:50] So the only things that can give are the things that, you know, you think you can get away with. Mhm. What [00:53:55] are your thoughts around that. I mean what’s having a kid done to that part of you. We’ll get [00:54:00] to other parts. But that part of you.

Aditi Bhalla: I think when, when it started it was [00:54:05] definitely me. Like I had to sort of I ignored my own needs because [00:54:10] obviously taking care of the needs of this little one was just everything to me. And doing it right again, [00:54:15] that perfectionism in that as well was showing through. So in the beginning, it was definitely [00:54:20] that. However, with the work that I’ve done with myself, it’s kind of become like [00:54:25] having that understanding that no one day is going to be 100% mother or 100% [00:54:30] work or, you know, it’s finding that own sweet.

Payman Langroudi: Of course, you’re now really good at it, right? You’re really good. [00:54:35]

Aditi Bhalla: So yeah, in the beginning it was definitely [00:54:40] sort of giving my all to my little one and [00:54:45] my work as well. And I was also studying at the time. So it was, it was, it was, yeah. [00:54:50] Madness.

Payman Langroudi: But that’s a common issue, right, where people think, you know, I find funny. [00:54:55] People say something like, I always thought by this time I would be something. [00:55:00] Yes, I go why? I was like, why is that even a problem? Why is that a thing? So [00:55:05] you always thought, you know what I mean? Like, I always thought by 30 I would be married and have a practice, all right? [00:55:10] You didn’t. So what? Yeah, exactly.

Aditi Bhalla: So what have you have you have you died? Are you still here? [00:55:15] You can do this now. You know, I recently met someone who, at the age of 60, [00:55:20] is now doing a cooking show, who has written a cookbook. You know, it’s possible at any age. I [00:55:25] think this is just a societal thing where you’re just, you know, set out these timelines [00:55:30] which must fit everybody. Whereas, no, you’re here having your own journey. So you’ve got to [00:55:35] make your own timeline. You know, it’s not the same for everybody.

Payman Langroudi: Do you have a coach? [00:55:40]

Aditi Bhalla: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And a therapist?

Aditi Bhalla: Yes. Oh, yes. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, [00:55:45] absolutely. And I don’t think I could.

Payman Langroudi: Important thing that for you to.

Aditi Bhalla: Yes. So as professionally as well, [00:55:50] you’ve got to be in therapy. Uh, because, uh, certain clients will bring certain things. They might [00:55:55] trigger something in you. So you’ve got to have, uh. It’s called supervision.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Aditi Bhalla: So you are [00:56:00] okay to take care of your clients. Which is funny enough. We don’t have that in dentistry, because [00:56:05] you need to have a mentor to make sure that everything’s going right. So, yes, I’ve got a coach. I’ve got [00:56:10] a therapist. Uh, it’s not only, uh, a professional requirement, but I feel [00:56:15] a personal one as well. It’s just so nice to have someone that non-judgmental space where you can [00:56:20] talk about your problems, but also talk about the solutions, the growth, and what you can take away [00:56:25] from there.

Payman Langroudi: And if I don’t want to, I don’t want to be reductive about it. Yeah, but let’s just talk about the business [00:56:30] of coaching. Yes. Do you recognise something around, like how good it [00:56:35] is to be a dentist. Now that you’re in another business, you know, like, [00:56:40] for instance, when we started enlighten. Yeah. I realised [00:56:45] very early on that dentistry was a lot better than I realised it was. [00:56:50] You know, because products selling to dentists so much harder than [00:56:55] selling to patients. Yeah. And just the dynamic, the trust dynamics of a dental [00:57:00] chair, the fact that, I mean, you know, it goes back every six months. Yeah. [00:57:05] Pays you money every six months to check in on you again, like for a check-up. No [00:57:10] other industry has that. No.

Aditi Bhalla: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: So? So give me your reflections [00:57:15] around, like, for me, when I started enlighten, it really made me appreciate [00:57:20] what it is to be a dentist. Yeah.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. I think grass is always greener on the other side. So when [00:57:25] you’re a dentist, you’re just constantly focussed on what’s going wrong and not appreciating [00:57:30] enough what is actually, you’re not taking the time out to reflect on what is actually working, you know? So [00:57:35] I think as a as a, as a psychotherapist, I’ve definitely realised, uh, [00:57:40] the financial aspect of it, uh, therapists work so hard and they [00:57:45] work with you on a personal level.

Payman Langroudi: Is it as tiring as being a dentist? More tiring. How [00:57:50] would you look at it?

Aditi Bhalla: Well, it doesn’t affect you physically in the sense that you’re not bending over someone’s mouth, but. [00:57:55] But yeah, just, you know, sitting in front of someone again, I’m going to talk about energy, you know, in that energy [00:58:00] of, you know, resolving and solving problems and offering support and help, it can be quite [00:58:05] draining.

Payman Langroudi: Are all your sessions face to face or do you do online?

Aditi Bhalla: They’re a blend. So they would be [00:58:10] face depending on where the client is. So if they’re local and they prefer coming in person [00:58:15] then it would be face to face or it could be online as well.

Payman Langroudi: Do you mind me asking [00:58:20] how much it costs?

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. So per hour it’s £65 an hour, which [00:58:25] is nothing compared to what a dentist gets paid. So. But it brings me joy. [00:58:30] And I think that’s my why. And that’s what you’ve got to keep coming back to. And [00:58:35] that’s what I do. Um, it’s hard work. I definitely don’t deny it, but it [00:58:40] offers me what I need right now for my life. Uh, and that’s something I keep coming [00:58:45] back to. And I never say never about dentistry. Uh, I may go back to it. [00:58:50]

Payman Langroudi: Or you may not.

Aditi Bhalla: Or may not, I. I think I’ve stopped making plans that are set [00:58:55] in stone and I’ve gone more like, right, I’m going to flow in whichever direction I need to flow [00:59:00] and I’m going to make it work. That’s the attitude. Whereas before it was just like this [00:59:05] goal, this goal, this goal, achieve, achieve, achieve, achieve. Now I’m just like, let’s [00:59:10] just flow with it, let’s go with it and let’s make life work for you.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [00:59:15] the thing you’re struggling with the most at the moment?

Aditi Bhalla: Getting people [00:59:20] to understand what I’m doing, because there can be a little bit of a conflict in the sense, oh, you’re [00:59:25] a dentist. There’s always this question like.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry, So.

Aditi Bhalla: There’s [00:59:30] always your dentist. But then they suddenly want to know the backstory. But why did you leave? And you know, why [00:59:35] are you doing this work? So I think that’s something, uh.

Payman Langroudi: It’s difficult to understand because this is [00:59:40] the spiritual thing. It’s difficult to. Yes, it’s the point of it is it’s difficult to understand. [00:59:45] But. Yeah. Um, I can see why people think the same thing. I [00:59:50] was thinking, what’s going on here?

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, but the thing is that I don’t shy [00:59:55] away from talking. Talking about it. I’m very open. Uh, and I talk about [01:00:00] everything because I do feel that traditional therapy works only to a certain [01:00:05] degree. There has to be something beyond. And a lot of my clients have had traditional [01:00:10] therapy and they’ve said it doesn’t work. It didn’t work for them. And when they start to work [01:00:15] in other ways, it really helps them a lot. I’ve seen a lot of change. [01:00:20]

Payman Langroudi: I’ve never had traditional therapy, but my understanding of it is that the relationship between the [01:00:25] therapist and the client is really key. Yes, but finding the right therapist for you? Yeah. [01:00:30] Do you. Have you found that a dentist, dentist, dentist relationship with [01:00:35] a therapist is important because, you know, you really get exactly [01:00:40] what. What’s going on? Yeah, with a dentist. Yeah.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, definitely. [01:00:45]

Payman Langroudi: It must be right.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. I mean, they see that. Oh. I’ve been I understand yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I [01:00:50] understand the struggles already, so they don’t actually have to break it down and make me understand the system because I already [01:00:55] understand it. So, you know, they’re sort of like saving their time and energy saying, oh, we don’t have to. [01:01:00] You understand what it’s like. You understand what the NHS is. You understand what you know. When I say, you know [01:01:05] this, this is the trouble I’m having with my nurse. You understand the dynamics and all of it. So it definitely [01:01:10] is an advantage.

Payman Langroudi: That’s super interesting.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, it’s definitely an advantage and even [01:01:15] you would be surprised. But even like in banking and stuff they struggle with similar things. The hierarchy, [01:01:20] the the stress, the ticking boxes, you know, all of those things. [01:01:25] So they kind of say, oh, you’ve, you’ve been there, you’ve you’ve hustled so you understand. You [01:01:30] understand what it’s like. So yeah, it definitely gives me an advantage.

Payman Langroudi: Are you religious? [01:01:35]

Aditi Bhalla: No, no I’m not. However, I don’t I [01:01:40] don’t shut it down in the sense that I’m not against it or anything, but I’m not [01:01:45] super religious. My family is, my husband’s family is. And I participate in [01:01:50] everything, uh, all the all the ceremonies and everything. I celebrate all the festivals. [01:01:55] Uh, but I come from it. Come to it from a very spiritual perspective. I [01:02:00] try to see the good in those things, and I celebrate it.

Payman Langroudi: Are you a [01:02:05] Hindu?

Aditi Bhalla: I am.

Payman Langroudi: So we were talking about this before. In a way, spirituality can be kind of kind [01:02:10] of religion. Kind of. But with your own rules. Yeah. Rather than the religion’s rules?

Aditi Bhalla: Yes. [01:02:15]

Payman Langroudi: No, it’s nicer in a way. Definitely.

Aditi Bhalla: Because there’s no structure. There’s no you can’t [01:02:20] do this. And you only you can only do this on a certain day. And there’s, you know, there’s no structure. There’s [01:02:25] no you are free to be a good person. You’re free to, you know, do all the nice things. [01:02:30] So I say take all the positives from the religion and put it into spirituality. That’s [01:02:35] that’s what it is. Yeah. And I love that because it gives me the freedom. I was never a person [01:02:40] who could be put down into this, this rules. And, you know, this [01:02:45] box I always I was always this person who questioned that doesn’t sit right with religious [01:02:50] people. They get very cross when you start to ask them, why do I have to do this? Or why do you know, why are [01:02:55] we doing this? Um, so spirituality works for me, makes me [01:03:00] happy.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ever listened to an episode of this podcast before?

Aditi Bhalla: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So we like [01:03:05] to talk about mistakes.

Aditi Bhalla: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind if we want [01:03:10] to listen to a mistake that you’ve made and something that we can all learn from, [01:03:15] we like generally go clinical mistakes. I’m happy to start there if you want.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, I think it [01:03:20] was a very I just come to this country. And you know, I am seeing one of my [01:03:25] maybe first few patients at university. Um, and I see this white [01:03:30] guy who’s not very happy that I’m his, uh, dentist. Uh, so he’s made [01:03:35] me really anxious, and I cut his lip.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. The worst thing I could have [01:03:40] ever done. And the bleeding just would not stop.

Payman Langroudi: So a deep cut.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, yeah, yeah, [01:03:45] it was quite a deep cut, so my professor had to come through. Obviously, the patient was quite anxious, so [01:03:50] I.

Payman Langroudi: Did have to stitch it.

Aditi Bhalla: No, luckily we didn’t. We just had to apply [01:03:55] pressure and just be with it. Just be patient. But I think when the mistake in that [01:04:00] is not obviously the cut and lift one is the obvious one, but for me is to have that faith [01:04:05] in myself. I didn’t trust my abilities. I was I was influenced by what you know, how the patient [01:04:10] made me feel.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you think it happened because of the way he made?

Aditi Bhalla: Definitely. I’d [01:04:15] never had I had never done that before. So it was kind of like the emotional side [01:04:20] of it is what got to me. And I lost my concentration. So being really [01:04:25] present in the moment when you’re doing, you know, a complex treatment because, yeah, some people can make you [01:04:30] feel a certain way. But you know, you’ve got to keep your emotions in check.

Payman Langroudi: That was bad energy. [01:04:35]

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. Bad energy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I didn’t understand energy at the time. Yeah. [01:04:40] So I think that that kind of stuck with me. Um, yeah. [01:04:45] So I think that’s one clinical mistake that’s really, really.

Payman Langroudi: Any others?

Aditi Bhalla: Any [01:04:50] other clinical mistake. Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Well. Most difficult patient.

Aditi Bhalla: Most [01:04:55] difficult patient. Wow. I’ve had a few. I think [01:05:00] the first one that comes to mind is, uh, I was doing [01:05:05] an obturator for someone, and. Yeah. Just just really mean. [01:05:10] Mean? It was just really mean to me. Just did not like anything [01:05:15] that I did. But if it was, uh, a male colleague who came and did exactly the [01:05:20] same thing, he would be happy. So yeah, that’s something you’ve got. You’ve got [01:05:25] to face. And then another time I think.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t it after cancer bits stuck on [01:05:30] a denture.

Aditi Bhalla: To to block block. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well yeah. You [01:05:35] just mean he was just.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. He was just not happy. I was just not inserting [01:05:40] the trays correctly. I was just. Yeah. Not getting the shade right. Just nothing. Nothing was right. [01:05:45]

Payman Langroudi: So eventually reflecting what can we learn from that?

Aditi Bhalla: What can we learn from [01:05:50] that is have a conversation. Have a conversation that how can I how can I make this better? What [01:05:55] are your needs? You know, having that real, raw, honest conversation because I was afraid [01:06:00] to have that. I was afraid what was.

Payman Langroudi: Going to have that?

Aditi Bhalla: I didn’t have that conversation. And I should have that, you [01:06:05] know. Yeah, definitely. I wish I had had that conversation, but I just ended up saying, I think you would [01:06:10] be more comfortable with my male colleagues. And of course, in some situations you’ve got to.

Payman Langroudi: You know, it was a man woman [01:06:15] thing.

Aditi Bhalla: I don’t know, maybe because I always asked for a man to come and help me. He was the only [01:06:20] other one willing to take on the patient. Nobody else was there, [01:06:25] so I don’t think it was a woman or man thing. It was just maybe he preferred his hands over mine. [01:06:30] Uh, but yeah, I think having that raw and honest conversation with [01:06:35] the patient.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what about in this work? I mean, I don’t want to characterise it as a mistake, [01:06:40] but but some something where you thought maybe it was just a regular thing and it was a [01:06:45] much deeper problem than you thought. Does that happen ever?

Aditi Bhalla: When I started, I thought [01:06:50] I could heal everybody. Fix everybody. You know that. Oh, I’m going to be this amazing. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. [01:06:55]

Aditi Bhalla: And then you get this client who is who’s just there to just rant [01:07:00] and do nothing. They don’t want to work on solving their problems. They don’t want to take any actions. You know, they don’t [01:07:05] want to take any of the tools you offer them. They just want to come and spend time talking, talking, [01:07:10] just crying about the same thing for how many ever weeks. And that really, [01:07:15] really was hard for me because I was in that mode that I’m going to fix [01:07:20] everybody’s problems, and that was a big learning curve. Big mistake. I took it back to my own [01:07:25] supervision session and I said, look, this person is not doing anything that I’m asking them. They’re [01:07:30] not taking on any of the tools that I’m offering them. And that’s when I realised, well, that’s because what [01:07:35] some people need is just a space to talk. And that’s what you’re there. You’re just there to hold the space. Yeah. [01:07:40] You know, you’re not there to facilitate healing. You’re there to offer that space, that non-judgmental space. [01:07:45] Um, so I think that was one of my biggest learnings in this work, [01:07:50] that I’m just there to hold the space and facilitate.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. Isn’t it, like experience? What? [01:07:55] What, like if you say, oh, yeah, she’s an experienced prosthodontist. [01:08:00] Yeah. What does it even mean? It means you’ve come across situations that that you didn’t [01:08:05] know what to do, or you’ve made mistakes and and in this world now, now you’ve got the [01:08:10] experience of this ranter type. Yeah. Increase your hourly rate. Yeah. Increase. [01:08:15] And listen. Sit back and just listen.

Aditi Bhalla: You’ve not got to. You’re not there to solve everyone’s [01:08:20] problems. But I think nobody talks about their mistakes. Uh, [01:08:25] when you look at Instagram, when you look at nobody talks.

Payman Langroudi: About in medical and dental, we definitely [01:08:30] don’t. Right. And well, it’s that black box thinking, right where it’s blame is the problem [01:08:35] we’re running away from. Yeah. Um, but it is helpful. But the funny thing about it is I’ve, I’ve drilled [01:08:40] the wrong side. Yeah. Lower right seven instead of lower left. Yeah. Drilled and drilled and [01:08:45] drilled. I keep saying to the patient I can’t find it. It’s so obvious on the x ray. I can’t find it, I can’t find it. [01:08:50] And I realised oh it was the nurse back then. Right and left. They used to write on the, on [01:08:55] the, on the OPG and she’d got it wrong the wrong way round or whatever, whatever it was. Yeah. [01:09:00] And then since that happened I would check 15 times before. [01:09:05] Yeah. So because you’ve made the mistake yourself, you learn from it. But [01:09:10] someone else’s mistake, somehow you don’t learn quite as much, but it’s [01:09:15] an interesting thing. Not that we hear each other’s mistakes because we’re all, like, so perfect on Instagram. [01:09:20] Like you said.

Aditi Bhalla: We’re just like these, you know? Perfect. Every perfect everywhere. We’ve just [01:09:25] got. It’s just too much. It’s exhausting. We’ve got to start talking more about our mistakes, about, [01:09:30] you know, what I did wrong, even if it’s in smaller groups. Just talk about it because, yeah, you don’t [01:09:35] learn as much, but it makes you feel like, oh, I’m not the only one. Yeah, I’m not the only one making [01:09:40] mistakes because there’s others as well. We’re human. We’re going to make mistakes.

Payman Langroudi: Do you get people? There must be [01:09:45] now. There must be people with like, severe anxiety about GDC and being sued. [01:09:50] And that’s probably the pandemic of its own, right? Yes. Does that come up a lot in your sessions?

Aditi Bhalla: Yes [01:09:55] it does. Uh, they might have had a complaint. They’re having sleepless nights, they’re having anxiety. And then you [01:10:00] sort of kind of unravel. And most of the times it’s the anxiety has started from something, [01:10:05] you know, long, long ago. And it’s sort of carried on. But yeah, fear of [01:10:10] I think the most common thing, fear of being struck off and also [01:10:15] fear of being found out that I have made this mistake. And, you know, people are going to judge [01:10:20] me, then they’re not going to think I’m a good dentist. They’re not going to think I know what I’m [01:10:25] talking about. And I think that’s a huge fear that comes up a lot in the session. [01:10:30] It’s it’s really sad because operating from a space of fear is, again, [01:10:35] stress in itself. Yeah. And you’re going to make more mistakes when you operate from that, [01:10:40] that space.

Payman Langroudi: And I mean, do people have access to you outside of the [01:10:45] sessions as well?

Aditi Bhalla: So I don’t offer emergency access. [01:10:50] So if there’s a crisis, yeah, if there’s a crisis point, I always say I always [01:10:55] give them numbers of helplines and I always give them that space. [01:11:00] However, they are open to message me or email me, and if I can offer support, I always will. [01:11:05] Uh, however, that’s not something that I offer because I know there are other, other [01:11:10] ways to get the crisis support. Yeah, but we always suss out that, oh, is there is there [01:11:15] a crisis need here. And then you would refer accordingly. Yeah. [01:11:20]

Payman Langroudi: What does the future hold?

Aditi Bhalla: Oh, the future is very exciting. It just feels [01:11:25] exciting. As I said, it’s not set in stone. I am still going with it. [01:11:30] Um, the two avenues that I’m really working on is the compassion [01:11:35] focussed dentistry and the Dental Wellbeing Hub. I feel like they’re my babies and I’m really excited [01:11:40] to.

Payman Langroudi: What’s it going? Tell me about the hub.

Aditi Bhalla: So the hub is a space that I’ve created, [01:11:45] uh, not for crisis points, but for points before. So how [01:11:50] can we prevent the crisis situation? The burnout. So the hub is a space where you come to [01:11:55] for preventative wellbeing to.

Payman Langroudi: Physically.

Aditi Bhalla: Right now, virtually right now virtually. [01:12:00] So I can reach anybody in, in the UK. Um, [01:12:05] but the hope is eventually it would also mean coming down in person. It’s [01:12:10] only started.

Payman Langroudi: Just like a website.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. So right now it’s just a Facebook group and the website is coming [01:12:15] up. It’s only been three months since it started. Uh, it was an idea that was long [01:12:20] in my head, and I thought it was the time that it comes. It comes into the world. [01:12:25] And. Yeah. So it’s a space I’ve created where I can offer these wellbeing tools. And [01:12:30] so they act as your preventative measure and you sort of, you know, you [01:12:35] think of a medical emergency kit bag. Right. Whereas I’m saying create a wellbeing kit [01:12:40] bag for yourself. Have all the tools ready and use them as in when use them regularly. [01:12:45] Use them in in times of stress anxiety so you don’t reach that burnout point. [01:12:50] And that’s what the Wellbeing Hub is all about.

Payman Langroudi: I quite like the idea of, you know, like optimisation [01:12:55] being on the same sort of path as this. Yeah. [01:13:00] You know, like it’s, it makes the whole thing much more interesting that you’ve got some executive who’s [01:13:05] super optimised. Yeah, that’s just the very end of this line of people [01:13:10] who are now sad and depressed and lonely and anxiety, all the all the things, you know, are [01:13:15] you looking at that as well? Sort of optimising people. It’s kind of on the same area. It doesn’t have to. [01:13:20] It doesn’t have to be problem focussed. You know, it could be. No tools. Tools. Focus. [01:13:25]

Aditi Bhalla: Yes. So I think I’m looking more at, you know, planting the seeds early, as early as [01:13:30] possible. If it gets to university level, that’s that’s where we want to get to at. Um, [01:13:35] so yeah, optimising sounds very, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Very aspirational. [01:13:40]

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. Well. Well, more like. Oh, there’s it sounds a little bit stressful [01:13:45] as well. I think, you know, like, oh you’ve got to optimise the function, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, back to [01:13:50] the self.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. Yeah. It’s almost like I, I want to make it sound that it’s it’s sustainable. [01:13:55] It’s easy, it’s accessible. And you can do this because everything in life is so hard. Even [01:14:00] when we look at, you know, some of the skincare routines like ten steps, I don’t have time to do ten steps. [01:14:05] You know, I’m lucky if my toddler lets me wash my face. So that’s [01:14:10] where I’m getting at. I’m getting real that we we all are busy. So how can I [01:14:15] fit in few moments of calm within my busy life? Yeah. Um. And that’s [01:14:20] where I am getting at, so I so I think maybe optimise in an easy way.

Payman Langroudi: Sure.

Aditi Bhalla: That [01:14:25] makes sense.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a bit I really I really like your energy, by the way, that you’ve taught me. Now that you’ve taught [01:14:30] me that.

Aditi Bhalla: I’m glad we’re talking about energy here.

Payman Langroudi: We [01:14:35] tend to end it on the same questions. Yeah. Fantasy dinner party. Oh, [01:14:40] three guests, dead or alive? Mhm. Who are you thinking you want [01:14:45] to have dinner with?

Aditi Bhalla: Okay. So I [01:14:50] would say dead and it sounds a little bit emotional but it’s not. Uh, I would say [01:14:55] my mom’s mom, my mom’s dad and my best friend from university, [01:15:00] all three are no more. And I really want to bring them here. And I just want to have this honest a short conversation [01:15:05] about life with them. And also. Yeah, just tell them everything is good. [01:15:10]

Payman Langroudi: What happened to your best friend?

Aditi Bhalla: He had cancer. Unfortunately, he was the topper of of [01:15:15] the class and did really well. But yeah, immediately after finishing dental school, he was diagnosed [01:15:20] and within six months he was gone.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness.

Aditi Bhalla: So yeah, I really want to bring him back and say [01:15:25] life is good. It’s amazing. All of the support and the love you offered me during university [01:15:30] has been amazing. So yeah, bring them back.

Payman Langroudi: And your grandparents. How [01:15:35] old were you when I was really young.

Aditi Bhalla: I was my gran, my granddad. I was, [01:15:40] um, I was 15, so I was older then. [01:15:45] But with my grandmom, I was six. Yeah. So I was, I was, but I remember [01:15:50] having such beautiful memories during the summer time with them. And I think I just wanted. [01:15:55]

Payman Langroudi: To look after you or something.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, they did, they did. And they were very, um, they were very [01:16:00] motivating. They were very much like, you know, they were always cheering for me.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [01:16:05] something about that grandparent that’s different. They’re different.

Aditi Bhalla: When I look at my.

Payman Langroudi: Mom now. [01:16:10]

Aditi Bhalla: It’s like, what happened? What happened? What happened to you? [01:16:15]

Payman Langroudi: That’s funny. Amazing. And the final one is a deathbed [01:16:20] question. Oh.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Three pieces of advice for your loved [01:16:25] ones. For the world on your deathbed.

Aditi Bhalla: So I would say I’m not. I’m not saving any advice [01:16:30] until my deathbed. I’m gonna give it right now. But I think what [01:16:35] I would say is life is too short. Uh, we’re all going to get to the to [01:16:40] the end anyway, so stop ticking boxes. Do it now. Say [01:16:45] I love you as much as you can, you know. Say it. [01:16:50] Sing it morning, evening and night. Just say I love you to each other. Uh. [01:16:55] Don’t hold back the love and forgive. Forgive fearlessly. [01:17:00] Because forgiveness is not for the other person, it’s for you. So [01:17:05] forgive. Forgive freely and fearlessly. That’s the advice I would give.

Payman Langroudi: Very [01:17:10] nice. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed, I’ve learnt a lot. Thank you. Really enjoyed it. Thanks for coming [01:17:15] all the way here.

Aditi Bhalla: For having.

Payman Langroudi: Me. Really enjoyed.

Aditi Bhalla: Thank you.

[VOICE]: This is Dental [01:17:20] Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [01:17:25] leaders in dentistry. Your hosts [01:17:30] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, [01:17:35] guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank [01:17:40] you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what [01:17:45] our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

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